Idiots. Anybody have any spare TNT to allow them to make a REAL statement?

(BTW, is the US the only country stuck with unwashed, stinking, unshaven, and hideous-looking peacenik protesters, or do other countries have this problem? One can't go by one picture alone, I fully realize, but why do the Spanish get hot-protester-babes while we get people who look like Manson family rejects? It just isn't fair!!! Maybe the photographer found the only two attractive people at the march...)

In one of Leonard Cohen's poems, the following line appears:

"Whatever makes a soldier sad
Will make a killer smile"

I don't know what the reference was in Cohen's poem, but the words apply very well to those who always condemn the Israeli and American military (soldiers), but gush with enthusiam over organizations like the PLO (killers).

I suggest we mobilise to try and understand the Basque nation's problems. Fortunately, their bombing campaign is not comparable to that of the Palestinians, but once they appreciate the advances the Palestinians have achieved, who could blame them for intensifying their campaign.

Evil Otto wrote:

why do the Spanish get hot-protester-babes while we get people who look like Manson family rejects?

I think the one on the left is a guy.

The lyrics you're thinking are from Cohen's "The Captain," one of the best Canadian songs about war (along with Cohen's "The Partisan" and every soldier here's singalong favourite, "Barrett's Privateers" by Stan Rogers).

Cohen tried to explain his lyrics in 1985: "In other words, we are really a predatory species. We are unique so far as we kill for pleasure. We have to understand that we're going to meet with some people who, naturally, are killers. It's not like a soldier or self-defence. We have to get ourselves ready, otherwise we're going die by naivety. And this is the topic of 'The Captain,' a passing on during which the corporal and the basic soldier are really taught by the captain because he's the one who understands he has to fight. But the soldier considers that, in light of so much pain and bloodshed, his only way out is to escape from the place of war. But the captain furthers his education, saying to him "There's no decent place.'"

If you can find it on Gnutella, I encourage a listen.

There is no decent place. Except those places guarded by OUR warriors. Of course the other guys feel the same.

Personally I think our side should win. All this talk of morality and the superior civilization is fine. And needed. But in the end it comes down to screw the bastards. All of them. They are wrong and we are right. Because in the end might makes right. So sad. In our dreams of the American utopia we want to move towards a more just version of the world. But for now I favor killing them all. Blast the Kabba.

If they don't like it we can build the world's largest baptismal/mikva. They have a choice. Jewish or Christian. If no choice is selected one will be made for you. They want crusades. Give it to them.

"Don't fight wars, let the citizens die for their country"

They see war as oppressive, not protective-
They'd rather have a million Israelis die before one 'Palestinian' dies. They'd rather have 2 million Israelis die before Israel responds. They'd rather have 4 million Israelis die before Israel begins to fight against the states that surround and threaten them. Of 240 million Arab Muslims (not to say that they all harbor the same beliefs), 1,600 is 0.0006% of the population. Of 6 million, 600 is 0.01%. By population, the Israeli losses have been about 17X as devastating as the Arab-state losses- a slaughter by military standards. It would take 24,000 'Palestinian'/Arab losses to be 0.01% of the population.

Bush may not be the best leader to take us into war (I'm absolutely sure that there are many, who also happen to be less war-mongerers and more fighting for what's right), but sadly, in his bid to keep power, he seeks to fight a war to distract from local problems. There are some 32.9 million Americans in poverty today, almost 12 million under 18 ([Link: www.nytimes.com...] There are MAYBE 4 million Palestinians in the same state, yet they receive billions while our poor (and the EU's and Arab world's) are conveniently ignored as our attention is dragged elsewhere. A HUGE surplus was squandered by a tax cut that barely helped anyone and only drained the government's coffers, Bush now wants other nations to follow his plan ('look how well it turned out') and to extend the cuts. People here may not like what I am saying but you know that I am no troll. I believe strongly in Israel and that many of the Arab states should be subject to 'regime changes' but the reasons are not the right ones- political rather than humanitarian.

I have been dissapointed that so many have come down so hard on Gore for his statements, but fail to realize that his statements are barely off of the official line of the Bush White Houes- get a group of allies, then go in, with the small exception of handing Saddam the rope to hang himself with by sending in Inspectors. The Democratic Party has staunchly supported the White House, but it is UNACCEPTABLE for people to label ANY dissenters as 'betrayers' and 'sympathizers'. YES, there ARE some who deserve this title, but they are the ones who riot and protest against the protection of our allies, who believe that 'terrorism' means simply any act of violence against others:

The Intelligence Community is guided by the definition of terrorism contained in Title 22 of the US Code, Section 2656f(d):

—The term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents, usually intended to influence an audience.

—The term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving the territory or the citizens of more than one country.

—The term “terrorist group” means any group that practices, or has significant subgroups that practice, international terrorism.

(the official definition is from here: [Link: www.cia.gov...]

Tell me what truth is.
-ratz

Are people truly this crass? Anti-war but pro-suicide bombing? Oh my.

Yeah, what have the Spaniards done for the world lately? It's nice to be an armchair critic when you don't have anything at stake.

I personally don't have a problem with them making public protest.
Stupidity hasn't been outlawed last time I checked.
What does annoy me is, why can't "news agencies" such as Reuters respect my view and refer to them as "peace-activists" [with the quotation marks] or "self-proclaimed peace activists". Of course the most factually correct form would be: "leftist activists".

Ratz 7:

The only effective prescription is: mass destruction. Either we do it, or they do it. The neo-Taliban movement that is re-forming in Pashto-Afghanistan, should end all denial of the futility of civilized nation-building in Islamania.

Bush could have allied with China, India, and Russia, in the counter-terror war, but he chose Pakistan and Saudi Arabia. He sowed the wind, and we are weaping his whirlwind.

For a palliative, you might try reading B.F. Skinner's BEYOND FREEDOM AND DIGNITY.

Ratz,

If we lose this war there will be a lot more Americans living in poverty.

Losing the war will advance the cause of the left. The left works hard to reduce productivity and increase poverty.

Milton Friedman says if we got rid of the pieces of government that are unconstitutional the economy would grow at 10% a year. Compare that to the typical 2 -3% we have been getting for the last 20 years. Government is sapping 2/3 the strength of the economy. At the behest of the left.

BTW War is one of the Constitutional jobs of government.

These idiots are of the sort that will tell you, with a straight face, that they'll win because the 'center cannot hold'.

They're correct in that the center cannot hold - the center will run shrieking to the Right, and away from these freaks.

If the EU doesn't disintigrate inside Friedman's 15 year window (and signs are it may actually happen a lot sooner), maybe we should do some regime change there too.

Charles:

You can tell they're men...

...their pits are shaved...

Oh my god! I arrived in Spain this morning and this is what I see when eagerly logging on to LGF for the first time! GET ME OUT!!

I'm noticing that NONE of the MEN around are looking at these scantily clad women...

So, can I ask what the police are wearing in Spain that caused the men to look away?

Female police maybe?

Or is this a fact of the one woman's wig (on the left) being too passe?

Hey, hot looking babes. This photo's a keeper. for several reasons.

1. To always remeber what Europe's bend is, whatever they mouth on later.

2. We should remeber how the girls looked, in the event some disenfranchised Pal (from the Bethlehem church siege, now in Europe) slipped them a real stick of TNT and is out to make a statement.

3. And the most important reason: When the Arab nation invades and tries to take Al-Andalus (Arab name for conquered Spain) back from the infidel, and the EU comes screaming to the US, they should be sent this photo in lieu of military forces - which they don't seem to like anyway.

Reminds me of the introductory "poem" from that Concordia student handbook:

uprising. here it calling. uprising. whispers in dark alley ways.
shhh. uprising. graffiti voices, trains weaving over hills, valleys
carrying the sacred words- shhh- intifada.

intifada. out of your houses and into the streets. intifada. here the
calls, the cries, the voices screaming. drums beating. pulse of your
heart. body dancing- intifada. take arms for revolution.

revolution. rise-up. no longer be told- be heard. grassroots growing
from the soul, winding, gripping like a fist. smash the state. pound
at the golden gates of patriarchy. burn the fires of racism. crush
capitalism. throw them in the rivers to wash into the oceans and
wither along the shoreline like a grain of sand. waves. rhythm of
the drum beat. fist of knowledge, of hope, of love as a sacred gift to
the mother who gives us life, to the earth. offer your hand to
brothers and sisters- smile and sigh- intifada. peace.

uprising is about creating a grassroots revolution. it is about the
people's voice. it is about solidarity for all those involved in the
struggles against oppressive powers that mug the voices of the
people.
-- mia rose brooks

Yup, intifada is "peace". Blowing up Jews is "peace".

#1 said why don't we have "hot protestor babes" and #4 Charles, said he thought one was a guy--could be. This is Pedro Almodovar country folks, where what you see may not be what you're getting.

Remember, too, in Spain they're afraid of anymore illegal immigrants from the Mediterranean and Africa coming over. They practically swim over to Spain and sleep in the parks. The Spanish are freaked and they don't want the boat rocking so that's probably what's driving a lot of anti-war stuff with them.

A HUGE surplus was squandered by a tax cut

That tax cut wasn't huge. It was (is) barely a drop in the bucket of the bloated federal government.

that barely helped anyone and only drained the government's coffers,

Helped me. I bought new furniture with my money.

By the way, THE TAX CUT HAS BARELY STARTED. It is supposed to be a ten year cut, and only a small fraction of it has even gone into effect yet. Blaming it for the return of the deficit is pointless. How about blaming our elected idiots in Washington who WONT. STOP. SPENDING. MONEY?!?!? How about understanding that the deficit has more to do with the economy going south after years of a soap-bubble economy than it does with a tax cut.

BTW, as far as "draining the government's coffers," why do you assume that the government is somehow entitled to as much of our money as it wants? When my income drops, I have a choice: stop spending as much, or go into debt. The government is choosing the latter route, and you'd have it take more to make up the difference.

Bush now wants other nations to follow his plan ('look how well it turned out') and to extend the cuts.

GOOD!

I would like to state here that Spain has been one of the few EU nations to stand with us since 9/11. In general, this support is a advantage to Israel.
Photos like these are painful to view but every nation has it's contingent of f**kwits engaging in street theater. The US has no shortage as we all know.
Mark
Olympia, WA
FYI McDermott is not my congressman.

M Simon,
I fail to see how 'the left' seeks to "reduce productivity and increase poverty" Clinton sought to move people out of welfare and into actual jobs, he listened to what the Ultra-lefts said, but it doesn't mean that he followed what they proclaimed was ABOSOLUTELY needed. It echos to me, sadly, of the claims that Zionists in Europe sought to aid the Nazis, since it was a convenient motivator for a Jewish state.

I do not debate the need for action against Iraq, neither does most of the Democratic establishment, but I think that it is ridiculous and sickening that our new forgein policy is to act constantly as the agressor, with or without evidence. And War is the Constitutional job of the government when all other reasonable options have been identified and proved useless. Saddam is plenty happy to bury himself by sucessively restricting what, a week and a half ago, was "unrestricted access" to NBC storage and research sites. I do think that unlimited, unhindered spot inspections should be the ultimatum and that anything less should be taken as a corruption of the process, punishable by military action. As it is said: 'Influence is the power left unused'- we must use the power that accompanies our military and political strength to attempt our goals rather than risk a failure by the first-step use of our less-than-ephemeral abilities. I don't think that we should, or will lose this war, but I think that our casualties, both physically/militarily and Politically/Internationally, are unacceptable if they come from simple, stupid decisions. I think that a war will be fought, but it is never good to OVERTLY be the agressor. Even if we ARE going to push this war, to say so in public and back that idea with every motion, rather than to deny and feint otherwise, is a political suicide. We want to win both the war against terrorism (the real war [against PLO & co., Basque Separatists, Columbian geurillas, etc], not the general war against Bush's enemies) and the war for the US as the single, trusted pole of International politics. Here is what we should be, and are doing: [Link: dailynews.attbi.com...] tougher demands, stricter hold on Saddam, and a zero-tolerance policy concerning Iraqi failures to comply. I do not shy away from war, but I think that we should make a wise entering move.

By the 'unconstitutional' pieces of government, I'd assume that you mean extra-constitutional institutions like the Social Security and MediCare agencies, as well as regulation bodies rather than agencies that contradict the constitution. I have to say that the Deregulation of the Airliners and Power industried have done wonders in bringing down the prices of goods, while the executives receive governmental grants so that they can give themselves raises and engage in unstable business models. The Airlines have never had a plan to actually make a profit- at least a few foreign air carriers have somehow managed to have much better security, services, and customer satisfaction while maintaining profitable and successful businesses. We have known since the 70s if not earlier that our airway security was a serious failure. X-ray machines and metal detectors have been a slight improvement, but as far as I can see it, few security officers at airports in Europe or Israel worry about 'racial profiling'.

Between 1992 and 2000, there was a much greater than 2-3% growth. It was between 1980 and 1992 that we had REALLY serious economic problems. Bush I's war was also an attempt (though the right reasons and methods WERE employed in that case) to distract people from the utter failure of Bush I's 'trickle-down' theory of economics, do you remember that one? The idea that the profits of the rich would somehow improve the lives of the poor? How about the fact that the only president in I-don't-know-how-long to actually balance the budget and, gosh, even maintain it for several years until a large surplus could be predicted, was a democrat who many condemned for his personal life, since his international and domestic policies were just-plain unassailable? The senators and congressmen who so gleefully ran to throw mud at him for personal, not political or ability failures should have been charged for treason for attempting a coup against the government, but they were not.
BTW, I'd love to see Milton Friedman's calculations based on gov. expenditures and past economic trends, if you could direct me to a lay-out of the considerations, afterall, 10% is a much more general feeling than 13.5% or 9.6%. As long as extra-constitutional governmental bodies are concerned, what about the Chiefs of Staff, the Pentagon, the Navy, Airforce, SOCOM, CIA, FBI, NSA, State Dept, NIS, and others? Those certainly take up more than the fair share of governmental expenditures. Now, I don't actually believe that they should be dismantled, nor do I complain that taxes are funneled to those bodies, but to insinuate that the removal of social services would somehow help where an ill-advised tax cut hindered and diminished our government's ability to function is sickening.

-Ratz

To NA, I doubt that utter destruction of those who oppose us is the only path. Bismarck was wise enough to limit the humiliation felt by the Southern Germanic/Austrian states- this got him the friendship of those armies during his war with France. The French post-WWI failed to limit the German national humiliation and reaped the punishment. I think that it was foolish for Bush to deny the invocation of NATO's Article 5 (attack one, fight all), which placed the combined NATO forces at his direct disposal, and to rather opt for a one-by-one coalition. His father was at least wise enough to use NATO as the centerpiece of his coalition, though he bent too much to the will of the Arab states. There are those who claim that we are responsible for the horrible human rights conditions in Iraq- they are partially right, we failed to remove Saddam, who then oppressed his people so that WE could be blamed.

You must have failed to see that, so far, the US has done quite well with local PR. So, unlike the Russians who were universally hated and provided little more than oppression, we are seen by MANY as having provided security and economic benefits to the society. Our military bases use local produce and so invigorate the local merchant market and encourage the basic capitalist success that is a fertile soil for the plant that we call Democracy. The Taliban will seek to rise again, but when they do, they will not find the population welcoming them with open arms, rather they will be greeted with the arms of freedom- the guns that will hold back the radicals. The roads are being rebuilt, the army and police are being trained, and with a great deal of success, the society is healing itself of its old wounds and rebuilding. Refugees of over 30 years finally have the confidance to return and rebuild....so as the pessimists say.....an utter failure.

I think the one on the left is Marilyn Manson.

At last you folks found out the shameful condition this country is in. Yes, I have been surrounded by this SHIT all my life! Guess what's like to be a fan of the U.S. or Israel or an outspoken advocate of Zionism for that matter? Not to mention that I also love Buck Owens & the Buckaroos... Hey, nobody's perfect.

The new ersatz pacifism is to hate Jews.

According to 'liberals':

If you are for pacifism and peace then you must hate Jews.

Did the US REALLY have to sacrifice seversal hundereds of thousands of her sons, in both World Wars, for these degenerates to live decent lives, earn good wadges and have enought freedom, leasure and free time to become half-educated and develop a sick and distorted culture of hate?

PS: You know, when looking at this pitcure, Franco does seem to have been too bad, is it too late to clone him?

"I have never seen a better illustration of the sick, degenerate anti-Semitism that characterizes European “pacifism” than this photograph from Madrid, Spain."

Charles,

You're either playing the provocateur or you are grossly uniformed. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and allow you the latter.

Kathyn #9

"Yeah, what have the Spaniards done for the world lately? It's nice to be an armchair critic when you don't have anything at stake."

I'll mention a few.

Spain has built a fully equipped hospital in Afghanistan and to date has treated over 300,000 people as recently announced by the secretary of defense.

The president is struggling to put together a coalition to deal with the tyrant in Baghdad. Spain is part of that coalition.

Spanish intelligence services have been working closely with US intelligence services post 9 11.

If you had read a Spanish newspaper, plenty online, you would know the primary pre-occupation among the general populace and in government circles is the threat from Islamic militants.

Spain is a friend and ally of the US.

There are idiots dancing in the streets all over the world protesting no war against Iraq.

You'd do better to vent your criticism on selfserving scumbags like Scott Ritter and Congressmen who visit Iraq and cow tow to the barbaric regime in Baghdad.

Well, my prediction that "terrorist chic" would become hip among the EU-niks is coming true. Not that I'm happy to see it.

Spain's president is backing us, and that counts for something. However, I read John & Antonio's "Inside Europe Iberian Notes" blog frequently and get the idea that anti-American, anti-Israeli idiotarianism is fairly rampant over there. A. van Hilten, if you haven't discovered that blog (written by an American expatriate and a Spaniard in Barcelona), I recommend it. Their site, along with Leo LeBrun's and Vegard's blogs, might make you feel less lonely over there:-) Let me know if you need links.(And BTW, I live in a college neighborhood which already has "No Blood for Oil" signs defacing an otherwise lovely area, so I know how you feel:-)

And BTW, I live in a college neighborhood which already has "No Blood for Oil" signs defacing an otherwise lovely area, so I know how you feel:-)

Yeah, we have those "No Blood For Oil" here at Auckland Uni as well - with a Maori translation alongside the English text. The Maori association has already hosted a particularly vile Palestinian-themed video-screening entitled "The People And The Land" - the posters advertising it displayed a picture of the Dome of the Rock, with "a video sceening dipicting the daily struggles of the indigenous people of Palestine", and it goes on about "colonialiation...land confiscations...state-sponsored terrorism...etc". The Paleostinian PR system sure works a charm - they're getting almost every "indigenous people" you can think of on their side.

Evil Otto,
I am sad to see that the view you present is limited to the hereandnow.

The 'barely a drop' is plenty of money, though I'm glad that you spent your $250 buying new furniture rather than trying to safeguard yourself and your family from problems amid an economic disaster.

The deficit is a result of poorly-considered economics. I'm not talking about the MASSIVE governmental debt, but rather the failure to maintain the budget and to hold back rather than deciding to go on a spending spree. The Pentagon should begin the effort to streamline the military from the bottom AND the top. There are many doubtfully useful projects (like the less-than-mobile artillery multi-billion dollar development project that Rumsfeld thankfully (and finally) cancelled) that need, at very least, heavy reformation.

On 'elected idiots', I have no problem with the statements, but it wasn't the Democrats who decided that several consecutive wars, a new cabinet-level agency, along with 'bailouts' to best-buddies in the oil and manufacturing industries should accompany the cut. Sept. 11 2001 was unimaginable, but to go haphazardly about OUTSIDE of military expenditures has NOTHING to do with the matter. I NEVER claimed that the Government should have been entitled to take MORE, but there is no reason to take less. The Clinton Administration DID cut spending when it needed to, but it barely managed to get by on the funds provided, so they held back on cutting taxes. The government, under Bush II's Admin is failing to do so much as attempt a consideration of financial factors. He is supposed to make a 'business' out of this government, he said it himself, but he has failed as 'CEO' and his policies have only hindered our national agenda. Even a tax cut that is small by percentage (of citizen's pay) has HUGE economic effects in terms of funds raised for future projects. The tax cut has cut out millions upon millions of dollars of taxes from the Top500 companies, while providing little benefit for the 'plebian masses'.

I am sorry to see that other countries should also destroy their own economic system, so that a few of the citizens can buy furniture as the economy goes unnoticed into the shitter.

-Ratz
PS: Saddam is already stringing himself up ([Link: www.nytimes.com...] like I said, give him timee rope....If Bush REALLY wants this to be more than an election-year power campagin, then he can wait 2 months to obliterate Iraq, we took 3 years between Pearl Harbor and D-Day, at least a year and a half between Italy and D-Day. The motive will be revealed in the action.

Juan says:

If you had read a Spanish newspaper, plenty online, you would know the primary pre-occupation among the general populace and in government circles is the threat from Islamic militants.

Maybe you can trick the rest of readers at LGF into beliveing this kind of shit, but not me. I read and watch Spanish news every day. I live in this country, and, believe me, THAT is not the highest priority in the Spanish government agenda. First and foremost, because they have to fight ETA terrorism. The authorities here have done an excellent work of dealing with several terrorist cells involved in Islamic extremism since 9/11, but then one has to wonder why those involved in these Islamic cells (most of them naturalized Syrians) weren't arrested before 9/11, even though they were being monitored by Spanish police; and they were diverting money to Al-Qaeda operatives (i.e. Mohammed Atta met with a contact in Salou, in the North East of Spain weeks before 9/11).

The answer is simple: Madrid did not want a spate of Islamic terrorism like the one Algerian terrorist organizations perpetrated in the streets of Paris during the nineties.

Firstly,

The one on the right is kind of hot looking.

They are idiots, however, for wearing dynamite and protesting against war.

I think they should take the dynamite off, like, right now! ;)

Officially, Spain is actually a good friend of Israel, as Europe goes.

Spanish and Jewish history is intertwined in tragic ways, and the Spaniards know it.

Donna V,

Yes, we want links!

Donna V (#29),

Thanks for the tip! It would be great if you could provide those links.

Ratz, we haven't had an actual cut in spending in ages. Maybe a cut in the proposed increase in spending, but not actual cuts. There is also no fricking way Clinton could have maintained a balanced budget if he was president after 9/11.

Don't just look at ooiiiillll bailouts either. Daschele, with his airline lobbyist wife, was the main reason we had those aweful airline bailouts. They should have have been bought and reorganized ages ago, but subsidies keep them barely running like Amtrack.

It is spending that is the main contributor to deficits, not tax levels. Unfortunately both republicans and democrats do not like to cut spending at all. It is political suicide in most congressional races.

The pro-terrorist pacifists did the same thing at the London peace march.

According to some idiot at the Guardian [Link: www.observer.co.uk...]

All the groups, the old Left and the new radical worried world of Islam, merged for the most part very easily, although there was an altercation at one point when the organisers tried to persuade a group of young Palestinians to go to the very back of the march, or preferably go home, but at least take off the official march T-shirt; for some reason they objected to the youths' having strapped fake stacks of suicide-bombers' dynamite across their chests. They changed their T-shirts.

#32 A. van Hilten

Juan says:

"If you had read a Spanish newspaper, plenty online, you would know the primary pre-occupation among the general populace and in government circles is the threat from Islamic militants. "

"Maybe you can trick the rest of readers at LGF into beliveing this kind of shit, but not me. I read and watch Spanish news every day. I live in this country, and, believe me, THAT is not the highest priority in the Spanish government agenda."

It was not my intention to trick anyone.

Since you "read and watch Spanish news every day" you will know of the debate and controversy regarding changes to the law with respect to foreigners. You may also be aware the underlying concern regarding those changes is the continuing influx of people from north Africa who number almost 1 million living in Spain today.

I will say it again slowly. In the arena of foreign affairs, the primary pre-occupation of the authorities in Spain is the issue of illegal immigration from north Africa and elsewhere and the potential threat from Islamic militants.

"First and foremost, because they have to fight ETA terrorism... The authorities here have done an excellent work of dealing with several terrorist cells involved in Islamic extremism (most of them naturalized Syrians)... Mohammed Atta met with a contact in Salou, in the North East of Spain"

"Most of them were naturalized Syrians " ?

I thought they were Syrians who were naturalized,Spaniards!

Also I thought it was Cartagena where Atta met with his co-conspirators.

ETA is listed by the state department as a terrorist organization. Members of ETA are banned from entry to the US and the US is co-operatiing with Spain in every way in the fight against those terrorist cowards.

"The answer is simple: Madrid did not want a spate of Islamic terrorism like the one Algerian terrorist organizations perpetrated in the streets of Paris during the nineties. "

So you are agreeing with me. Spain like Germany, France, and other European countries are doing everything to avoid terrorism.

Update: Home-grown American Militas,

[Link: www.npr.org...]

[Link: www.militiaofmontana.com...]

[Link: www.publiceye.org...]

[Link: kgez.com...]

[Link: www.militia-watchdog.org...]

The democrats DID cut spending more than just proposed increases, and they did not get slaughtered for it. To cut spending to a program that directly adds to the wealth and happiness is not a fun thing to do, but neither is explaining that the government is having its resources repossessed. I doubt whether Clinton could have maintained the budget balance, but I also doubt that the defecit would have increased as much as it did. Do we really need armed fighter jets patrolling the shores, sometimes hundreds of miles from airports, and hundreds of thousands of dollars a run, rather than having a few on patrol at important sites? Do we need a new Bureau? Do we need to spend so much on additional programs?
To say that it is spending that adds to defecits, not tax cuts is ignoring the realities of money. It is true that a careful watch of funds is the only defence now, but saying what you said is like saying that poverty doesn't come from the fact that the poor can't make money, but that they just spend too goddam much. It is a system where what goes out is limited by what goes in, that doesn't mean that either part is free from the need to have close scrutiny, just that the inflow is the 1st limiting step.

On Airline bailouts,
You ignore the fact that it was not a Democratic Administration that decided to deregulate the Airliner Industry and that they should be free of price controls. It is unfortunate that the companies our so wildly independant, but the current society (especially pro-Big Business lonnyists) will not accept a government-owned air industry. This is a shame, but the result of a poorly thought-out policy. I would like to say that I heard many more Democrats expressing concern than Republicans, and I doubt that Daschle is the only Party-leader with ties to the AirCo.'s.

-Ratz
-Ratz

(on the 4th link, look under '4th Reich')

Here's the links, folks, enjoy!

[Link: www.johnandantonio.com...]

[Link: leolebrun.blogspot.com...]

[Link: home.online.no...]

LeBrun's blog is written both in French and English.

#7 "[Bush], in his bid to keep power, he seeks to fight a war to distract from local problems. "

The nice thing about Usenet readers is that I can set up a killfile and put people like Ratz into it-- people who aren't interested in discussion or pursuasion, but demonstrating their pugnacious ignorance.

Charles,

As I said in a posting some time ago: screw the Euro-weenies. They are a lost cause.

Time to fortify Fortress North America and leave the Euro-weenies to cuddle up to their Islamofascist buddies who would think nothing of flaying the Spanish lassies -- depicted in the photo above -- alive, for showing too much skin.

Degenerate? No, not really, they are just Idiotarians who will not learn the the error of their ways until it is too late.

Like most Liberal lefties, their whole outlook on life is based on theory and not hard-won experience.

#33: "Spanish and Jewish history is intertwined in tragic ways, and the Spaniards know it."

Yes, tragic because the Spaniards kicked the Jews out five hundred years ago, or forced them to convert - and then kicked them out anyway. Do the Spaniards really know this? Doubtless many educated ones do, but has there ever been a attempt in the culture at large to confront Spain's anti-Jewish past?

I have kind of left-off reading Spanish newspapers because I think that most Europeans don't "get" the nature of the terrorist threat we are facing. After 9-11 I began reading a lot of anti-American editorials that simply disgusted me. However with that said, I want to join forces with #22 (Mark Morris) and #28 (Juan) and say that the leader of Spain has been a firm ally with the U.S. in the post 9-11 war against terror. I'm going to take the liberty of posting a few excerpts from an El Pais article that was publised Sept. 11, 2002 ([Link: www.elpais.es...] my translation)

Aznar supports Bush against Iraq even without wider UN backing

Wednesday, 11 Sept. 2002

The Head of Spanish Government, José María Aznar, yesterday notified George Bush that Spain would like to be in accord with a common UN Security Counsel position in the face of the Iraqui challenge, but that's not absolutely required, according to sources from La Moncloa. In a telephone conversation, at 4:00 in the afternoon, Aznar clarified to Bush that "Spain has taken sides", in accord with the position defended by the North American President because "We Spanish have weighty reasons for doing so", in allusion to the terrorist threat that this country suffers from.

[snip]

Also Aznar brought up to the President of the United States that "nobody disputes" that Sadam Hussein's regime "has failed to fulfill up to 16 UN Security Counsel resolutions." And he notified him that, in his judgment, ther are "disquieting indications" regarding the possession of weapons of mass destruction on the part of the regime of Baghdad.

With this background, Aznar told Bush that Spain seeks for diplomatic avenues to be exausted in the face of this situation and that Spain wishes to be in accord with a common position to be taken by the core of the UN's Security Counsel, and that it supports the measures to be taken.

But he also communicated to the North American president that if Saddam Hussein ignored the Security Counsel resolutions, the Spanish position will be decidedly "on a side", together with the United States.

[snip]

Actually, the Airline Deregulation Act is from 1978, probably the only good thing to come out of the Carter Administration.

Jimbo, I stand corrected. I must have been thinking of power utilities deregulation. If it is from the Carter Admin, then I feel that it is a mistake.

Raoul,
I'm sad that you see me that way. I think that you might want to check my background here before running in, dropping that bomb and running off- you might be surprised with my previous posts if that is your view of my person. I do feel strongly about these issues and am usually in agreement or at least kind disagreement on issues, but I am tired of the Gore- and liberal- bashing that I see sometimes. I ask, but people refuse to see that not all dissention is treason. I do not deny the need for war, nor do I say that Bush shouldn't lead us into one, I simply would prefer one who is a more trustworthy leader. I think that many at LFG would be shocked to know of my vapid ignorance, especially in my various debates with those who would try to hold up falsehood as fact. I have spoken much on these subjects, but local politics is not a subject that mixes well with my agressive pro-Israeli international policy.

-Ratz

Juan:

I can see we actually agree on almost everything, except that I cannot see so clearly the connection you are trying to make now between the Spanish government's concern regarding the continuing influx of people from North Africa, immigration policies and the need to rout out Islamic militants. I think the primary concern for the Spanish government right now is to stop the tide of illegal immigrants, NOT because they pose a terrorist threat, but because of the increase in crime rates over the last couple of years. It's not like they are all busy right now making bombs. In fact, most of those who have been convicted on terrorist grounds so far were "Syrians who were naturalized Spaniards."

True, Algerian terrorists have also been known to reside in Spain, but it is highly doubtful they would ever expose themselves by coming ashore illegally when they could have simply crossed the border unsuspected.

You say you thought it was Cartagena where Mohammed Atta met with his co-conspirators. OK, take a look at this story (reads something like 'Atta contacted other terrorist from France in Salou'): Atta contactó en Salou con otro terrorista procedente de Francia

Los agentes policiales han conseguido el testimonio de varias personas que aseguran haber visto a Atta por Salou y sus inmediaciones, acompañado por otra persona.

As for the ETA terrorists, they were branded independentists or activists not so long ago (I think the BBC still does). It's, therefore, all the more revolting to hear the state-owned TV channel news program voice-over call the intifada a 'popular resistance movement.'

And last but not least, yes, Spain —like post 9/11 Germany, France, and other European countries— is doing everything it can to avoid terrorism. Only, it did not give a damn about Islamic terrorism prior to 9/11. There were Islamic terrorists residing in this country long before 9/11.

It seems the Spanish police have been too lenient dealing with Islamic terrorism in this country (see [Link: www.el-mundo.es...]

Fuentes policiales de la lucha contra el terrorismo islámico (existe una brigada especializada desde 1996) a las que ha tenido acceso CRONICA piensan que, como hizo Bensakhria, muchos activistas islámicos acuden a Alicante a renovar su documentación y mantenerse mientras tanto en la retaguardia. «Este es un lugar perfecto para estar un tiempo dormido. Según nuestras informaciones los miembros de varios comandos de información esperan aquí el reabastecimiento de dinero, de documentación falsa o incluso de armas. Y si tienen algún problema, se montan en el barco y se van a su casa si no están perseguidos allí. Así de fácil. Sabemos de su existencia pero no podemos hacer gran cosa mientras no cometan un delito importante», asegura un funcionario policial.

I don't know if the police had the slightest idea who these people were, where they were living, and the kind of ideology they were embracing, but nothing happened until after three thousand people died, and to me that's unacceptable. If these terrorists were not sleepers, if they were actually involved in crimes punishable under Spanish laws —and some were said to be wanted by France—, yet they were not prosecuted, in spite of the fact that they were detected, then I have no name for that, except shameless cowardice on the part of Spanish authorities for their inaction. It reminds me of the way the French dealt for a long time with ETA terrorists hiding there. Not our business policy, if you know what I mean. While they do not perpetrate an attack on your own soil, why bother?

Unfortunately, turning a blind eye on these scumbags can backfire in the long run.

Whether these freaks are male or female, I hope the Muslims in Spains do onto them as they have been doing onto the gentle womenfolk of Denmark.
Or even better, I hope they find themselves in this attire in a mosque right after the kill the Jews and Christians wherever you may find them sermons [Link: www.memri.org...]
Let's see if their screechy tune changes then.

Thanks, Donna.

Juan-

Charles didn't say he was disgusted by the Spanish government. He said he was disgusted by European "pacifism," which was, in fact, exemplified by the protest where the picture was taken.

We have pacifists here in America, and they stage similar rallies (most recently in Washington, DC, the capital of our country), and Charles is probably just as disgusted with them as he is with the people in the picture above, even though they're all American.

If Charles isn't, then I am.

But the American protests probably don't feature people dressed as suicide bombers. Anti-semitism and anti-Zionism in Spain are strong. The former persists since, having kicked the Jews out five hundred years ago, the Spanish has had no Jewish population around to remind them that "Jews are human too". As for the latter, I was recently in Spain and was shocked to see mainstream newspapers covering suicide bombings in Israel with headlines such as (satiric exaggeration): "Israel's military gears up for massive orgy of violence (in response to a suicide bombing)".

I would like to say that there is little difference between the republicrats and the demicans on social issues. One takes my money and gives it to one group and the other takes my money and gives it to someone else. At least the republicrats(or was it the demicans?) say they want to take less.

The government has 4 responsibilities: infrastructure, law and justice, protection of our borders, and education of the people. You could do more on the local level if you wanted, but the rest is just taking my money and giving it to someone else and both parties have proven that they can do just that.

My 2 points for this issue is THANK GOD Gore wasn't president on 9/11. We would still be talking to the Taliban seeking extradition of al quaeda members. Also that Iraq is only hte first that should go, Tehran and Riyahd need to be on the itinerary as well. Radical Islam will not be truly defeated until the Islamic Holy Land of the Hajiz has been freed from the tyranical rule of the Saud family empire that was formed in 1924 when Ibn Saud conquered what is present day Saudi Arabia.

Maine's Michael (#33):

Officially, Spain is actually a good friend of Israel, as Europe goes.

While this is true as far as the current cabinet is concerned, the people on the street are mostly anti-Israel, which is more or less the same as saying they harbor anti-semitic feelings.

The fact that Spain has been mostly Judenrein country for the last five hundred years is no secret, but perhaps because of it many Spaniards, even the educated ones, cannot tell the difference between those Jews who support the actions of the Israeli government and those who don't. It's unthinkable for them that a Jew could blame the situation on Israel. They think all Israelis are Jewish and all Jews pro-Israeli.

And, since they tend to equate Jews with Israelis, they are somewhat antisemitic. Specially, the radical left (ex-communists and the like). At the very best, Spaniards consider Jews and Arabs to be two sides of the same coin. And the bias of the media coverage is even worse. Not only is there widespread doubletalk regarding Palestinian gunmen or suicide bombers, but there's also a trend to refer to the IDF as 'Sharon's army' or 'the Jewish troops'.

Even leaving Israel out of the picture, there is a strong anti-Jewish tendency in Spain. I used to live there and a few experiences spring to mind: a young, "progressive" Spaniard telling me with a smirk that he wasn't sorry the Holocaust happened; a show I saw on the cable station TeleNieve (broadcast from the Sierra Nevada) featuring two middle-aged guys sitting around recounting a blood libel about Jews joyfully crucifying a Christian child in Medieval Spain ("just like they do to Palestinians nowadays," one commented); a Spanish comedian telling a joke on a popular TV show about a Jewish husband who doesn't let his wife eat because that would be too expensive; a thirty-something lawyer rationalizing the Holocaust to me as the result of the Jew's arrogant view of themselves as the Chosen People. I don't mean to Spain-bash here - in a lot of ways I actually the love the place - but I found this left over Medieval prejudice disturbing.

Well, all I can see is that those protesters put the 'less' in clueless...

I wouldn't view this as a "Spain" issue. It's not very hard to imagine something like this happening on an Ivy League campus in America..not that far from things that have already happened.

Right-thinking people in all countries need to stick together.

Ratz said in #39:
To say that it is spending that adds to defecits, not tax cuts is ignoring the realities of money. It is true that a careful watch of funds is the only defence now, but saying what you said is like saying that poverty doesn't come from the fact that the poor can't make money, but that they just spend too goddam much. It is a system where what goes out is limited by what goes in, that doesn't mean that either part is free from the need to have close scrutiny, just that the inflow is the 1st limiting step.

Jeez, so that's what I've been missing all this time -- I don't really have any rights over the products of my own efforts, it really all belongs to the government, and I should just be happy that they let me have anything at all, rather than giving it all to the "poor". NOW I understand the realities of money, thanks!

And:
You ignore the fact that it was not a Democratic Administration that decided to deregulate the Airliner Industry and that they should be free of price controls. It is unfortunate that the companies our so wildly independant, but the current society (especially pro-Big Business lonnyists) will not accept a government-owned air industry. This is a shame, but the result of a poorly thought-out policy.

Dang, you got me there again! Now I realize what a shame it is that deregulation of the airlines pushed the cost of flight down so much that millions more are able to afford to fly. What a stupid policy that dang deregulation was!

And here I though Marxism had been pretty much discredited as an economic philosophy with the fall of the Soviet block. Good to see there's still some unrepentant reds around! All hail the Internationale!

#18 Amos

I think the two "bomber babes" ought to spread their message by going into the Arab Quarter in Marseilles alone at night, dressed just like that.

After the Arab gang bang stopped, the Arabs themselves would be happy to leave the infidel whores with fake bombs shoved up various orifices, laughing as the ernest young ladies apologized to them, saying "We know the Irsaelis were the root cause behind this gang bang. Hope you downtrodden people of Peaceful Islam kill a bunch of them."

Joe Stocker #37

They changed their T-shirts.

Yea, but they didn’t take off their suicide belts did they?
Pathetic peaceniks.

And

Ranbutan #59 & Amos #18

Dudes - I think that was their idea from the start.

Has anyone actually talked to these girls? Maybe the back of their sign says “Drink Beer” (like PETA suggests we do) and they’re shamelessly promoting a super-sized version of those beer hat things.

Now that I think of it, those cylinders resemble the uranium smuggling container. Maybe they're pro-nuclear protestors.

You didn't think it was tres chic? Since when was left wing politics about anything other than one-upmanship?
It was so, so...Benneton

#58 Steve,
I never said that the government had the right to take all of your money/belongings, nor did I say that they should. I was refering to the claim that the entire, massive deficit was due to excessive spending, rather than a combination of excessive spending in the light of an additonally limited influx of funds. Don't distort my words, my intentions were made clear, so quote in context. I never claimed that there should be a tax raise, but that the tax cut, even before 9/11, was known to leave no 'breathing room' in case of a tragedy or emergency. Both happened, and guess what? No leeway. I don't believe that Marxism in any form can work- it is a system based on an idealist human value system which breaks down under any real system. Frankly, I don't understand where you get the claim that I advocate the restriction of civil liberties or the sacred nature of private property, I was explaining that the amount of money that can possibly be spent is based on the over-all limit of the funds provided.

A note to start, I was corrected on the point that it WAS indeed the Carter Administration that deregulated the Airline industry. It is not that I feel that competition is foolish or bad, but that the level of deregulation allowed the companies to push themselves below the margin of profits, such that, for the past several years, as flying has become more and more affordable, the American Aircarriers (mostly, not including SW Airlines, which was wise enough to do otherwise) have consistantly posted losses and knowingly by-passed security and comfort issues. Remember when you used to get a full meal for a cross-country flight? The deregulation, like marxism, was a great principle, but poorly executed thanks to the greed of the executives and the tendancy to cut corners that we find in all corporations.

I'm sorry if capitalist/merchant economics seem pinkish to you, then I do not know WHAT to say. Re-regulation or even, (I did not make it clear) in extreme cases, nationalization of services (which is socialist, not communist, a HUGE difference BTW) may be a sad, though necessary following step. If a company is not economically viable, then it should either change or fail, such is the captialist system. To subsidize without interacting in the reorganization (a practice long ago added to the system of bankruptcy management) is a bad example. The Internet start-ups had no business model, no plan for a real product or realistic service- my family did not invest in any of those companies, since we realized that, unless you got in and out within a day then you'd get screwed-over, we lost no money in the craze, though some savings were most definitly lost in the overall shuffle and drop in prices.

-Ratz, I hope I am not wasting words on deaf ears

Oh, BTW, communism was discredited way before then, when it turned out that NONE of the so-called communist states were actually run by the proletariats.

Ratz, well, you're bemoaning the fact that we don't allow government ownership of industry, and you'd apparently rather have the government decide how best to spend my money rather than let us keep it and decide for ourselves. To quote your sarcastic comment in reply to Evil Otto in #31: "The 'barely a drop' is plenty of money, though I'm glad that you spent your $250 buying new furniture rather than trying to safeguard yourself and your family from problems amid an economic disaster." Sounds like sentiments with which ol' Karl would have been comfortable, no matter what YOU may be calling it.

Also, it's NOT a lack of tax inflows that creates budget "deficits", it's the whole system of allowing the government to spend literally any amount of money it wants on anything. An individual or business that operated the way the government does would have been cut off by creditors long ago. But here we have the very agent that creates the money, in charge of deciding how much of it to spend -- why not spend it all? In fact, let's spend more than we have! Woopee! And so they do. EVERY year. THAT'S the "reality" of the fiat money we use.

Oh, and I challenge you to find a single on-going government program that had its budget cut by at least $1 billion REAL dollars (i.e. inflation-adjusted to 1980), anytime in the last 20 years. I don't mean, had its planned spending increase for next year cut from $2 billion to $1 billion, I mean they actually wrote a budget that planned to spend $1 billion less this year than last year.

Hey, Ranbutan - correct on all counts. However, to be more precise you should have written "tournant" instead of "gang bang", tournant being the word the "naturalized" Arab gang bangers use to describe what they do to infidel chicks. Yup, it's so prevalent, they have a special word for it.

Sometimes, in my weaker moments, I pity the French. If the fools think their situation is bad NOW... let them wait ten years.

Carry on Ratz.

I don't have to agree with everything you say to respect your views.

I will also NEVER, EVER again fall into my old leftist habit of being tolerant of everything you say so long as I agree with it.

As long as discourse is civil and intelligent, we've got a chance...

I LOVE listening to economists argue.

ANOS # 65 Hey the French already have “Jew F*ck Your Mother” Slimmed down to a simple graffiti acronym, so they’re well on their way.

1492 - Spain Expells all Jewish residents as Columbus sails to the New World.

Spanish Inquisition -
Torquamada 'Convert or Die' The Church tortures and murders thousands of Jews who refuse to convert to Christianity to spare their lives.

Spanish Jewish Moranos - Jews who Convert to not be killed but secretly retain some Jewish customs so their children do not forget their true roots.

Crusades - As the several cursades make their way through europe to the mideast they slaughter Jews on their way, specifically in Spain many Jewish communities were slaughtered as the Crusaders went towards Israel.

A OVERVIEW OF 2000 YEARS OF
JEWISH PERSECUTION

Donna(#29)
Please include my blog as I tend to cover both sides of the Atlantic. as well. I work at being anti idiotarian from time to time :)
xavier

I bow my head in shame. Feel a bit like A. van Hilten, I'm a Dutch guy, pro-US and pro-Israel, surrounded by a bunch of facists who don't care about anything, and communists, who are pretty much as anti-semite as the first group. With all the talk here about Spain being a big ally, let me tell you that that extends to José Aznar's clear good-wrong vision, but goes not a whole lot further. These are people who pretty much invented appeasement, living for over 40 years under dictatorship, not rocking the boat until Franco died out of his own, and have never truly battled ETA, instead paying revolutionary taxes (no shit) to keep their companies or families from becoming a target.

These people never knew what I learned in School, how the nazis came and took our Jews, and the part my own ancestors played in standing by or in some cases doing the right thing. These people don't know what is real democracy, decrying a government for illegalizing the political wing of ETA (Batasuna), and giving you dumb looks when you talk of Hitler's rise to power. These are nothing but a bunch of romanticizing, Che-loving, anti-American, pro-Palestinian communist anti-semite good for nothings. They should be brushed aside in their ignorance, like flies on a barbeque.

Do you think that these "women" would suck Arafat's balls for 'peace.'? I really woul d hope that the Mossad woul djsut for the hell of it, find these two senoritas and kill them, just for jooy, wouldn't you?

Hey guys!

Forget the little freak show in Spain with the transvestite on the left. Forget also the big protest in London.

Spain is 70% pro-American on the Iraq issue and England is 60% pro-American and Iran's decision to side with the Americans just might be the first major slam at all the muslim-leftist solidarity in the west. The leftists in the west cannot hold together with Islamic fundamentalists for long. They are like oil and water. Do you think any Islamic fundamentalist worth his salt would not want to shoot the two "girls" in the above photo? Give me a break! Osama would deep-six both of them in a heart beat if he were still alive (may he rest in peace).

Ratz - I'd love to take this tax & spend issue up on another thread.

You're all talking about how the Spaniards kicked out the Jews 500 years ago. But you're forgetting that they also kicked out the Muslims living in Spain. Muslims conquered Spain, and christians, jews, and muslims lived in remarkable peace for many years. Then they kicked out BOTH the Jews and the muslims. I'm pretty sure of this fact, so it seems like the Jews and the muslims were in the same boat!

I have to agree with R. McLeod on the kudos about the discussion being relatively civil. That being said...

Even if I was once again Democrat, I would still be "bashing" Gore as I occasionally take some on the right to task. The reason: they have said something mind-bogglingly stupid. Had Gore been content in his obscurity, he would not be facing deserved scorn from both isles. Instead, he had to try and serve his own interests (If Bush is serving his though pushing for war with Iraq, it goes double for most dissenting Democrats) and politically shot himself in the foot. It hardly helped his image, and the more moral Democrats such as Lieberman have been canny in distancing themselves from him.

Though I suppose we could trade off: we'll stop "bashing" Gore if you stop bashing Bush or, at the very least, Ann Coulter. I would say that's more than fair.

And as far as economics, I cannot seem to remember any nation that has ever taxed itself into prosperity. Profit is not zero-sum, there is no fixed amount of wealth. Any beginning economics student knows that your money does not cause my poverty. For me, the tax cut was hardly frivolous, I needed it: last year I was living in the most expensive place in the US, and being taxed out of whatever money I was getting hardly helped me to pay for rent, tuition, or food. On the other hand, the money that was returned to me paid for a month's groceries.

Surplus is being read wrong here. It is a sign that the constituency is being overtaxed. The moral (and ultimately, economically prudent) course of action would be to return the money to its rightful owners: the people who earned it. It is ridiculous to consider that this surplus was anything other than the money I broke my back working minimum-wage jobs to make ends meet. I am sorry, but if politicians care that much about bringing home the pork, why don't they simply vote themselves a pay cut rather than raise? A simple solution, really.

Raj,
I'd be glad to, but I don't really want to seize control of a topic that could be better discussed withouth the debate running through it. However, this thread will be dead within oh, 7 hrs, so let's....

McLeod,
Thank you for your patient, tolerant [though clearly with reservations :)] response. I don't expect all, or for that matter, any other liberalist- economists to agree with many of my points, I would be glad to hear divergent viewpoints (maybe we could talk in the NEW thread, whatever that ends up being.....)

Steve,
I am bemoaning the fact that there are those to whom a mixed system, by which some, though CERTAINLY not all industry might be controlled by the government. I do not say that the government knows bes how to spend YOUR money, though in many matters, the distribution of tax money is something that has to be seen as a result of the elected (or at least appointed) government. If you want to keep all of your tax money to yourself, then that is fine, but be prepared to not use any public services, like the freeway or road system, or to expect the fire dept. to come and save your house in a fire, or to expect for the police to come if you get robbed, or to expect the army to protect you in a war BUT here I am being intentionally obtuse. I only take your statement to the logical conclusion- chaos and insecurity.

Actually, for your review of my sarcastic comment (it was most definitely sarcastic),

Sounds like sentiments with which ol' Karl would have been comfortable, no matter what YOU may be calling it.

Actually, under communism, there would be no need to save or horde- it is actually discouraged- since the community of fellow workers would share equally in hardship and benefit...sounds sorta like the Puritan doctrine lain out in John Winthrop's "A Model of Christian Charity." But I do not argue for the egalitarian system, the same system which is supported by tax dollars (Social Security, Medicare, Unemployment, Welfare etc...). Instead, since an extremist-individualist response was given to undercut the realities of the lack of positive development coming out of the tax cut, I undercut that statement with what the real individualist-capitalist would believe. I believe that windfalls should not be the determinant factor in spending and the purchase of goods. If you cannot afford to buy the furniture without the tax cut, then I believe, you might want to invest and save (or seek to increase what you have) rather than to spend it....
---------------------------

Also, it's NOT a lack of tax inflows that creates budget "deficits", it's the whole system of allowing the government to spend literally any amount of money it wants on anything. An individual or business that operated the way the government does would have been cut off by creditors long ago. But here we have the very agent that creates the money, in charge of deciding how much of it to spend -- why not spend it all? In fact, let's spend more than we have! Woopee! And so they do. EVERY year. THAT'S the "reality" of the fiat money we use.

Yes, many government officials behave recklessly with the distribution (or rather OVERdistribution) of funds. I never denied that this was an important factor. I DID, however, say that this problem was exacerbated since there was less leeway (and encouraged, since the NORMAL budget, WITHOUT the war-time spending, was ALREADY on a path towards deficit under the tax cut). This is the second time that it has been claimed that I am ignorant of such forces, DESPITE my comments and explainations to the contrary....

Oh, and I challenge you to find a single on-going government program that had its budget cut by at least $1 billion REAL dollars (i.e. inflation-adjusted to 1980), anytime in the last 20 years. I don't mean, had its planned spending increase for next year cut from $2 billion to $1 billion, I mean they actually wrote a budget that planned to spend $1 billion less this year than last year.

I believe that a % of budget might be a more accurate measure for the matter in overall spending, but nevermind that (changes seen, both inflow and outflow, here: [Link: www.infoplease.com...] an instance will be found....
BTW, this process is severely hampered by the fact that not all MILITARY spending is readily available, since they spend so many billions on projects, and since so many gov. programs are so lightly funded that $1 billion is far beyond even the initial budget....
.........
Got some.
-------
Here: [Link: www.infoplease.com...] less than half way down, 'commercial and housing credit', 'agriculture' (I WILL LOOK FOR OTHERS, SINCE THESE ARE ESTIMATES FOR BUDGET).
------
The Crusader program, which was actiually CANCELLED:
[Link: www.cdi.org...] (most of the way down)

Cost proj: $11.1 Billion
Even Purchasing 70 MORE of the similar German (pre-existing) system will save $6.7Billion over 10 years [from source given].

SOME TAX, ECONOMICS, FISCAL RESPONSABILITY, ETC. RESOURCES:
[Link: www.frbsf.org...]
(the bad of government spending:) [Link: www.ncpa.org...]
[Link: www.latimes.com...]
----------------------
----------------------
The Iconoclast,
I'm glad that the tax cut was helpful to you, and that you were able to spend the procedes in a way that was truely beneficial to you. I agree, the politicians should, and in an ideal world would, cut their own wages.

-Ratz,
not time for more

Ratz -

Congrats on finding the budget cuts -- I didn't really expect you to bother to look. I'm happy you managed to find something; although I might quibble over your examples as "ongoing programs", I am more struck by how small the actual amounts are in comparison to the total budget, and I doubt the "savings" ever made it back into your or my pockets.

My tone was challenging, simply because it is not clear from your posts what your view of the proper political/economic system is. You are advocating elements of socialism/communism on one hand, but then you seem to say that you are pro-individualist/capitalist in the next sentence. Basically, it looks like you are pro-mixed economy. I am definitely anti-mixed economy; I am completely against government involvement in the economy in any way whatsover. Not only do I think that it is immoral for the government to take anyone's money by force, but I am sure that there is no business endeavor that the government could undertake, and no industry that the government could operate, that
would not be better off in private hands. The province of the government should be the courts, the police, and the military.

donna v #29
deb p #45
mark morris #22
jon aronson #72
and me juan #28

The 5 out of 77 who so far got it right!

The cynic in me wonders how different it would have been if the Louvre and the Bundestag had been plane bombed.

The bottom line is... despite history and the idiots on the streets... Spain is on our side...end of story... the rest is converstaion.

In europe they say that they've been "dealing" with terrorism a long time and that they are just "better" at living with it. They also feel we are crazy in the US to be upset about Sept 11th.

In the US, the view is that if someone blows up a pizza parlor and children get hurt EVEN IF IT IS ONE TIME--it's time to get ticked.

Sadly, one of the biggest things that changed many people's minds about segregation in the US was not Rosa Parks or Martin Luther King--but that church being bombed where little girls were inside and died.

Even the staunchest of prejudiced people in the US still had this invisible line that if someone will blow up a church or a 5 year--you CAN'T LET THEM HAVE A LONG TERRORIST SPREE. Because they will do it again and again...and it will get deadly.

To americans, the europeans look like selphish, self-absorbed people who play russian roulette with life and hope that they personally won't get hit in a terrorist attack. At worst, they look cold-blooded.

Deb above said ( I believe naively) that europeans don't "realize" how terrorists will be in the future--WRONG, they don't CARE!

Oh, but as a post note for (anyone from europe)

YOU WILL NOTICE THAT THE ISRAELIS REFUSED
TO CHARGE THE
CHURCH OF THE NATIVITY BUT...MUSLIMS HAD NO PROBLEM SLAUGHTERING HINDUS
IN A TEMPLE IN INDIA THIS WEEK...Anyone remember the nativity boys? What? Someone let them go to India? Where are they now? Oops, europe is at it again!

I'm sorry europe, but you have to smoke some really really strong weed to be this anal 3 centuries in a row!

Juan (#78):

donna v #29
deb p #45
mark morris #22
jon aronson #72
and me juan #28

So these people got it right. OK, let me see:

#29:

Spain's president is backing us, and that counts for something. However, I read John & Antonio's "Inside Europe Iberian Notes" blog frequently and get the idea that anti-American, anti-Israeli idiotarianism is fairly rampant over there. [Emphasis added]

#45:

I have kind of left-off reading Spanish newspapers because I think that most Europeans don't "get" the nature of the terrorist threat we are facing. After 9-11 I began reading a lot of anti-American editorials that simply disgusted me. However with that said, I want to join forces with #22 (Mark Morris) and #28 (Juan) and say that the leader of Spain has been a firm ally with the U.S. in the post 9-11 war against terror. [Emphasis added]

First, I don't think these comments actually support the point you were trying to make, unless it's your intention to attest to the fact that Spain is buzzing with anti-American rhetoric calling Dubbya a 'cowboy', laced with the ubiquitous anti-Semitic slur likening Sharon to a 'swine', a nazi or both; and some other particularly nasty remarks. The bastards went as far as presenting Shimon Peres with this humiliating crap during his (last?) press conference in Spain: [Link: www.eljueves.es...]

#72:

Spain is 70% pro-American on the Iraq issue and England is 60% pro-American and Iran's decision to side with the Americans just might be the first major slam at all the muslim-leftist solidarity in the west. [Emphasis added]

Hmmm...

I'm afraid Jon Aronson simply got the figures wrong. While he paints a very flattering picture of Spanish society the truth's quite different. Not only does the overwhelming majority of the population not support any military action against Iraq, they also feel all this warmongering to be totally unwarranted and morally repugnant.

You just need to take a look at this online poll to realise most Spaniards oppose the next war: ¿Considera justificado un ataque a Iraq por parte de EEUU?

Looks like seventy eight percent of Spaniards do not agree with the way the White House is conducting the War on Terror.

Might not be scientific, but the percentage is significantly high and quite telling of the mood here. Therefore, the only conclusion I can arrive at is that Spaniards are mostly anti-American and anti-Semitic.

Oops. It seems LGF is drawing some criticism from Xavier's blog for bashing Spain badly: Spain and the American commentariat. I could go on for hours on Spanish jingoism, so don't get me started.

You all are a crowed of over reacting, undereducated American assholes who have been totally insulated from the real world by your twisted media machine
Please.... read, travel abroad, take your head out of your arses

Maybe the Peacenik's would be more successful here if they didn't all look like dirty hippies