Morris: Running Out of Solutions

Middle East • Views: 2,147

The Israeli left is increasingly waking up to the disturbing reality that their country is surrounded by people with genocidal intent, and historian Benny Morris is a case in point: Running out of Solutions.

On an overcast afternoon in early April, unsmiling men with big guns and earpieces patrol the sidewalk in front of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s private residence in the upscale Jerusalem neighborhood of Rehavia. A short walk up the road on Azza Street, Benny Morris sits outside a cafe, radiating despair. “Iran is building atomic weapons at least in part — maybe in large part — because it intends to use them. The people there are religious fanatics,” he says in a rapid staccato. “Israel is under existential threat, and that is how Israel’s military and political leaders must see the situation.” In a 2007 essay, Morris, a professor of history at Ben-Gurion University, imagined a “second holocaust”: nuclear-tipped Iranian missiles raining down on Haifa and Tel Aviv. “A million or more Israelis … will die immediately,” he predicted.

That is not the sort of language one expects from an icon of the left and an intellectual lodestar for supporters of the Palestinians. But Morris, 60, like much of the Israeli left, has grown ever more cynical about the prospects for a two-state solution and for peace. In his new book, One State, Two States: Resolving the Israel/Palestine Conflict, Morris argues that the Palestinian national movement has never in fact reconciled itself to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state. His shift from Oslo Accords optimist to embittered pessimist is emblematic of the disappointment and frustration that has ravaged the Israeli left since the second intifada. “Morris is a one-man microcosm of what many Israeli Jews of the Labor-Zionist strain have undergone in the past decade,” says David B. Green, opinion editor at Ha’aretz’s English edition. “They recognize that we’re not on the verge of peace, that this conflict may not be resolvable, and that they were naive to think that was the case.”

(Hat tip: davesax.)

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234 comments
1 zombie  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:26:51am

The Israeli Left should have woken up in 1948 and never gone back to sleep.

2 Sharmuta  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:27:03am

Reality has a way of mugging people.

3 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:28:47am

It's typical of what my "Secular" friends who tend to be more "liberal" ( at least liberal in the Israeli sense ) are feeling. They have very few illusions left that The "Palestinians" really want peace.

4 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:28:54am

For every Benny Morris, there is a Larry Derfner, a Gideon Levy, a Gershon Baskin, an Arik Ascherman, an Amira Levy, a Naomi Chazan, a Yossi Beilin, drunk on the Kool-aid of "peace at any price" and driving the peacemobile wrong way down the highway.

5 Sharmuta  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:28:56am
In his new book, One State, Two States: Resolving the Israel/Palestine Conflict, Morris argues that the Palestinian national movement has never in fact reconciled itself to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.

Interesting choice of words. Why would one need to "argue" this point? It's a fact- hamas and fatah have yet to recognize Israel, and refuse to do so.

6 Kragar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:29:28am

"Hey, those guys with the rockets and guns and suicide vests screaming Death to Israel....I think they're trying to kill us."

7 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:29:45am

re: #4 Alouette

Amira Levy

I meant to say Amira Hass.

8 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:29:55am

Meanwhile....back in Persia

Man Stoned to Death for Adultery

The current leadership in Iran says they want to wipe Israel off the map, I would take them seriously. It is just a matter of time before they get nuclear weapons and they have stated over and over again, at the highest levels, that they want to destroy Israel. With the current leadership in Washington, Israel is truly on their own.....god help them.

9 zombie  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:30:23am

The turning point came in the early '70s when the Palestinian terrorists, specifically Leila Khalid and the PFLP, started adopting Marxist narratives to describe their actions. Instead of "Kill the Jews!", it become "Overturn the imperialist Israeli occupiers to liberate the oppressed Palestinian class!"

The Israeli far left fell for it, hook line and sinker, So all the terrorists started adopting the same verbiage, and the sickness spread from the Israeli far left to the mainstream Israeli left.

And we've been suffering the consequences ever since.

10 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #9 zombie

The turning point came in the early '70s when the Palestinian terrorists, specifically Leila Khalid and the PFLP, started adopting Marxist narratives to describe their actions. Instead of "Kill the Jews!", it become "Overturn the imperialist Israeli occupiers to liberate the oppressed Palestinian class!"

The Israeli far left fell for it, hook line and sinker, So all the terrorists started adopting the same verbiage, and the sickness spread from the Israeli far left to the mainstream Israeli left.

And we've been suffering the consequences ever since.

Meanwhile, the Palestinian terrorists dropped all that Marxist shit and resumed shrieking "Kill the Jews!"

11 lawhawk  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:33:12am

Morris wasn't naive. He just thought, along with much of the Left, the diplomats, and the US, that Arafat would turn into Sadat and make peace with Israel, even at great personal cost to himself and he never did.

Arafat showed himself to be incapable of making peace; Abbas is no more capable, and is in an even worse position politically within the Palestinian polity because Hamas is running the show in Gaza and Hamas has its foundational document call for nothing less than Israel's destruction. Everything Hamas does is in furtherance of that goal, including today's claim that they'll consider a 10-year hudna with Israel.

Israelis are sick of war, which is why so many of them flock to the possibility of a peace deal. Oslo turned out to be the highlight, instead of the starting point. Ever since Oslo, the terrorists have repeatedly shown that they care not for peace, but in murdering Israelis. Eliminating checkpoints to encourage Palestinian trade only encouraged terrorists to attempt attacks on Israelis by suicide bombers and bombs. Closing the border meant the terrorists started firing rockets and mortars.

Part of the problem stems from the fact that no one has told the Palestinians that they've lost the war with Israel over Israel's existence. They still think that they will prevail; it's the kind of hope that is corrosive and destructive to the everyone because Palestinian victory means Israel's end.

12 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:33:32am

Barry's gonna' get that 3am phone call.

Sir, a nuclear detonation has been detected over Tel Aviv.......

Barry'll call Ban Ki Moon, and demand "What are you going to do!"

Bad mojo in the middle east.

All hat and no cattle is a sure recipe for disaster.

13 nikis-knight  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:33:38am

It's not enough, but do we have missle defense in Israel, or is it too short range to Iran to matter?

14 Shug  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:34:30am

Liberalism vs Jihad.

Jihad wins every time

15 Claire  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:34:45am

So now, watch the Left decide that Israel should just pack up and move somewhere else.

16 jaunte  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:35:38am
...Morris advocates attaching the West Bank and Gaza to Jordan -- which is today majority Palestinian -- and making that combined entity the Palestinian state. Such an arrangement, he says, has a better chance of defusing the forces of Palestinian militarism and revanchism.

Is there any constituency in favor of this plan other than Benny Morris?

17 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:35:40am

re: #11 lawhawk

And, as long as they are propped up by an unrealistic west, they have no reason to stop thinking they can "win" against Israel. Good points

18 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:35:41am

re: #13 nikis-knight

It's not enough, but do we have missle defense in Israel, or is it too short range to Iran to matter?

We do. It might even work. But it only takes one impact to devastate Israel. It isn't an appealing future if Iran is allowed to go nuclear.

19 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:36:18am
re: #16 jaunte

Is there any constituency in favor of this plan other than Benny Morris?

Sharon

20 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:36:45am

re: #12 jcm

Barry's gonna' get that 3am phone call.

Sir, a nuclear detonation has been detected over Tel Aviv.......

Barry'll call Ban Ki Moon, and demand "What are you going to do!"

Bad mojo in the middle east.

All hat and no cattle is a sure recipe for disaster.

That call might be a nuclear blast on our soil too. Iran still wants to destroy us as well....we are the Big Satan, Israel is the Little Satan

21 Timbre  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:36:57am

Israel's prior strikes against Iraq and Syria resulted in increased security for Israelis. Sure, the anti-Israel terrorists are going to ratchet up their vitriol, but what else is new? The vast majority of Muslims/Palestinians/Arabs/Iranians refuse to accept the lawful existence of the State of Israel. Israel must take those actions that will ensure its survival. That would be the moral and ethical action. Policy and inaction which causes Israel's demise--that is immoral and unethical.

22 zombie  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:37:24am

re: #13 nikis-knight

It's not enough, but do we have missle defense in Israel, or is it too short range to Iran to matter?

I'm quite sure the nuke will be smuggled in by ground or sea. It will not be a missile. Iran has total access to the Israeli border with their pipeline to Hezbollah in the north, and Hamas in the south. Missile defense will be useless.

Any experts on Israeli naval coastal defenses? Could Iran false-flag a ship and get it into the harbor at Tel Aviv? Or is every single approaching vessel stopped at sea and searched?

23 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:37:39am

re: #13 nikis-knight

It's not enough, but do we have missle defense in Israel, or is it too short range to Iran to matter?

Israel has the Arrow System. IIRC they also have a few Patriots.

24 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:38:21am

re: #22 zombie

I'm quite sure the nuke will be smuggled in by ground or sea. It will not be a missile. Iran has total access to the Israeli border with their pipeline to Hezbollah in the north, and Hamas in the south. Missile defense will be useless.

Any experts on Israeli naval coastal defenses? Could Iran false-flag a ship and get it into the harbor at Tel Aviv? Or is every single approaching vessel stopped at sea and searched?

They stop ships at sea if they have suspicious.

25 jvic  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:38:27am

My sympathies to Professor Morris.

Discarding long-cherished ideals is painful, but it's better than dreaming happily--and waking up as the murderer's blade descends.

26 JohnnyReb  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:38:55am

re: #15 Claire

So now, watch the Left decide that Israel should just pack up and move somewhere else.

I actually have heard people say just that. A friend commented that everything would be OK if all of the Jews just picked up and left and went back to where they came from in 1948.

27 Render  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:39:17am

re: #22 zombie

Israel has been quietly intercepting Iranian ships and shipments for several months now.

SHHH,
R

28 Buck  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:39:36am

Even though I have known this all along, it hurts to hear Morris say it.

I am not sure if I had held out a tiny amount of hope that the left might be right, and that we are not doomed...

But now, my worst thoughts being confirmed by Morris makes me want to throw up.

29 lawhawk  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:39:39am

re: #23 jcm

Israel has the Arrow System. IIRC they also have a few Patriots.

Even then, keep in mind that the flight times from Gaza are so short, that missile defense systems have a matter of seconds to acquire and eliminate the incoming missiles. That's the biggest problem for protecting places like Sderot, and while Tel Aviv might have a few moments more time, missile defense is tough under those circumstances. Preventing Hamas (or Fatah or Hizbullah or Islamic Jihad or any of the other terror groups) from ever getting their hands on those kinds of weapons remains the top priority.

30 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:39:43am

re: #13 nikis-knight
The US has a missle-defence base in Israel, operated by US military. Range is enough to stop anything before it could impact Israeli territory.

31 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:39:44am
Morris argues that the Palestinian national movement has never in fact reconciled itself to Israel’s existence as a Jewish state.

What gave you the first clue, Benny?

32 Sharmuta  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:40:13am

The problem isn't the ideology of the left, but the ideology of the unconstrained vision, which does predominate the left, but isn't exclusive. From Thomas Sowell's book, A Conflict of Visions comes the classic vision of the unconstrained concerning war:

"Steps for a peace seeking nation to take to reduce the probability of war therefore include (1) more influence for the intellectually or morally advanced portions of the population, (2) better communications between potential enemies, (3) a muting of militant rhetoric, (4) a restraint on armament production or military alliances, either which might produce escalating counter-measures, (5) a de-emphasis of nationalism or patriotism, and (6) negotiating outstanding differences with potential adversaries as a means of reducing possible causes of war."

You can see the unconstrained vision on the right in people like ron paul!

33 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:40:25am

re: #26 JohnnyReb

I actually have heard people say just that. A friend commented that everything would be OK if all of the Jews just picked up and left and went back to where they came from in 1948.

Would that include places like Egypt and Syria?

34 JohnnyReb  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:40:26am

re: #24 Alouette

They stop ships at sea if they have suspicious.


Or sink them as was reported a while back. Hmmm......

35 Kragar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:40:29am

re: #16 jaunte

Is there any constituency in favor of this plan other than Benny Morris?

Jordan was the original 2 state solution, and prior to the 1967 war, the West Bank was Jordanian. Personally, I say Jordan should take the people and leave the land, as the original deal was supposed to been.

36 zombie  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:40:46am

re: #21 Timbre

Israel's prior strikes against Iraq and Syria resulted in increased security for Israelis.

Problem is, Iran is smarter than Iraq and Syria. Their nuclear facilities are buried deep underground, unlike Osirak. Plus, Iran is further away. It may be the case that Israel does not have the firepower required to take out the Iranian nukes in situ. It may require a whole lot of bunker-busters dropped from high-altitude bombers -- not a shallow missile strike from fighter planes.

37 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:41:03am

re: #30 NelsFree

The US has a missle-defence base in Israel, operated by US military. Range is enough to stop anything before it could impact Israeli territory.

If it works

38 experiencedtraveller  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:41:09am

re: #22 zombie

Don't forget about counter-strike capacity in your analysis...

39 JohnnyReb  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:42:01am

re: #33 Alouette

When I asked him that and a few other things his head exploded and he called me a hater.

40 MikeAlv77  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:42:07am

So this guy JUST figured out that Iran wants to kill all of Isreal. Wow.. and he is educated (supposedly). When all the Muslim countries are calling for the destruction of Isreal. When Hamas and Hezbollah say they want to have it from the river to the sea.. What did he think they were talking about.. planting tulips!

Sometime the left just makes me mad in their stupidity and denial of the real world. Its like they think they can wish it away and its all rainbows and unicorns..

41 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:42:11am

re: #20 Desert Dog

That call might be a nuclear blast on our soil too. Iran still wants to destroy us as well....we are the Big Satan, Israel is the Little Satan

They only bright spot in that scenario is delivery, a bit harder to deliver to us than Haifa.

The nightmare scenario is a dual strike. Israel and an EMP here.

I can see a lot of pressure on the US not to respond because of the lack of "visible" damage.

42 VioletTiger  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:42:47am

OT....How do you post a link?

Thanks.

43 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:43:02am

re: #38 experiencedtraveller

Don't forget about counter-strike capacity in your analysis...

Counter strike doesn't count for all that much if Tel Aviv and Haifa have been destroyed. Don't get me wrong, I'd strike back and hard, but the damage would have been done.

44 Racer X  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:43:07am

re: #11 lawhawk

Part of the problem stems from the fact that no one has told the Palestinians that they've lost the war with Israel over Israel's existence. They still think that they will prevail; it's the kind of hope that is corrosive and destructive to the everyone because Palestinian victory means Israel's end.

A thousand updings.

45 Kragar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:43:23am

re: #36 zombie

Problem is, Iran is smarter than Iraq and Syria. Their nuclear facilities are buried deep underground, unlike Osirak. Plus, Iran is further away. It may be the case that Israel does not have the firepower required to take out the Iranian nukes in situ. It may require a whole lot of bunker-busters dropped from high-altitude bombers -- not a shallow missile strike from fighter planes.

I'm pretty sure if a significant number of Iranian nuclear scientists came down with something terminal in the privacy of their own homes, it would put quite a crimp in the process as well

46 dhg4  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:43:52am

re: #4 Alouette

For every Benny Morris, there is a Larry Derfner, a Gideon Levy, a Gershon Baskin, an Arik Ascherman, an Amira Levy, a Naomi Chazan, a Yossi Beilin, drunk on the Kool-aid of "peace at any price" and driving the peacemobile wrong way down the highway.

I guess what's encouraging is that Benny Morris used to be among that crowd too. Remember he was the first of the "new historians" who argued that Israel was at fault for the refugees and because of that was the toast of the anti-Israel Left. He's since changed his mind (or at least his emphasis), unlike Avi Shlaim and Ilan Pappe.

47 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:43:57am

White House Chief of Staff links countering Iran threat to Israeli peace with Palis:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The task of forming an international coalition to thwart Iran's nuclear program will be made easier if progress is made in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, according to sources in Washington.

48 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:44:05am

re: #29 lawhawk

Even then, keep in mind that the flight times from Gaza are so short, that missile defense systems have a matter of seconds to acquire and eliminate the incoming missiles. That's the biggest problem for protecting places like Sderot, and while Tel Aviv might have a few moments more time, missile defense is tough under those circumstances. Preventing Hamas (or Fatah or Hizbullah or Islamic Jihad or any of the other terror groups) from ever getting their hands on those kinds of weapons remains the top priority.

THEL is very close to operational.

If, BIG IF, Barry will okay the sale to the IDF.

49 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:44:22am

re: #9 zombie

That reminds me - I watched the movie Operation Thunderbolt this weekend (free on Netflix!) It's a pretty cheesy movie, but I was amazed by the planning and operation of the raid on the Entebbe airport by the IDF.

It was pretty disturbing to see terrorist yelling at a Jewish hostage (with a number tattoo on his arm) in German.

50 MikeAlv77  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:44:59am

re: #43 Nevergiveup

Counter strike doesn't count for all that much if Tel Aviv and Haifa have been destroyed. Don't get me wrong, I'd strike back and hard, but the damage would have been done.

Plus the fact that the Iranian govt thinks that destroying Isreal will bring back the Mahdi.. nice guy to bring back who needs death and destruction as his harbinger...

51 Shug  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:45:13am

re: #47 NelsFree

White House Chief of Staff links countering Iran threat to Israeli peace with Palis:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The task of forming an international coalition to thwart Iran's nuclear program will be made easier if progress is made in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, according to sources in Washington.


So in other words, never

52 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:45:17am

re: #45 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I'm pretty sure if a significant number of Iranian nuclear scientists came down with something terminal in the privacy of their own homes, it would put quite a crimp in the process as well

Just like they cured Dr. Bull.

53 zombie  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:45:39am

re: #42 VioletTiger

OT....How do you post a link?

Thanks.

Easy way is to just paste the URL in your comment. Done.

Fancy way is to copy the URL from the page in question, then come back to your comment, highlight the word you want to be a link, then click the "chain" icon at the far right above the comment box, then paste the URL in the popup window.

54 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:46:10am

re: #37 Nevergiveup

Nevergiveup: "What if it doesn't work?"
NelsFree: "What if grasshoppers packed heat, would the robins try to eat them? What if frogs had wings, would they bump their backsides when they land?"
/Sheesh.

55 kansas  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:46:35am

Since the definition of occupation is the existence of Israel, why has it taken so long to realize that there is no "two state" solution?

56 nyc redneck  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:46:37am

the palis do not want a state. if they wanted one, they could have had one by now. what they want is all the land of israel and all the jews in the sea.

i hope israel is building up to decimate the iranian nuke site.
the sooner the better. the whole world will breath easier.
no matter what outrage they feign, they will be glad. (most anyway even many moslem countries.)
it is unconscionable and unacceptable that mullah barbarians would ever be allowed to acquire such massively destructive instruments of death, which they would gladly use.

57 Kragar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:46:46am

re: #47 NelsFree

White House Chief of Staff links countering Iran threat to Israeli peace with Palis:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The task of forming an international coalition to thwart Iran's nuclear program will be made easier if progress is made in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, according to sources in Washington.

Rebuttal: Destroying the Iranian Nuclear program and destabilizing the Islamic regime, which would eliminate a major source of support for Hamas and Hezzballah, would make progress more likely in peace negotiations.

58 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:46:57am

re: #32 Sharmuta

The problem isn't the ideology of the left, but the ideology of the unconstrained vision, which does predominate the left, but isn't exclusive. From Thomas Sowell's book, A Conflict of Visions comes the classic vision of the unconstrained concerning war:

"Steps for a peace seeking nation to take to reduce the probability of war therefore include (1) more influence for the intellectually or morally advanced portions of the population, (2) better communications between potential enemies, (3) a muting of militant rhetoric, (4) a restraint on armament production or military alliances, either which might produce escalating counter-measures, (5) a de-emphasis of nationalism or patriotism, and (6) negotiating outstanding differences with potential adversaries as a means of reducing possible causes of war."

You can see the unconstrained vision on the right in people like ron paul!

Is unconstrained vision a nice way to say stupid?

59 Altermite  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:16am

The scary thing is that MAD isn't going to work here. MAD only works if the other guy doesn't want to die either.

60 baier  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:22am

Maybe Obama can throw a BBQ and get everyone be friends.
The US needs to get off Israel's back and watch it instead.

61 albusteve  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:24am

BO and the leftists surrender monkeys live in a fantasy world...they do not even listen to sound, rational advice, there are numerous examples...total disconnect that will get people killed...imo the UN is complicit in every facet of conflict in the ME

62 VioletTiger  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:32am

re: #53 zombie

Easy way is to just paste the URL in your comment. Done.

Fancy way is to copy the URL from the page in question, then come back to your comment, highlight the word you want to be a link, then click the "chain" icon at the far right above the comment box, then paste the URL in the popup window.


Thanks, Zombie. I think this should go in the spinoff links because it is off-topic. I have never done that before.

63 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:42am

re: #36 zombie

Problem is, Iran is smarter than Iraq and Syria. Their nuclear facilities are buried deep underground, unlike Osirak. Plus, Iran is further away. It may be the case that Israel does not have the firepower required to take out the Iranian nukes in situ. It may require a whole lot of bunker-busters dropped from high-altitude bombers -- not a shallow missile strike from fighter planes.

And Gates blocked the sale of bunker-busters to Israel, back when Bush was still president.

Of course, it is possible that Iran doesn't actually detonate a bomb, but announces they have some, and that all the Arab countries, especially the oil-producing ones, had better listen to them, and stop selling oil to any country that still recognizes Israel. And the same goes for the US and Europe; if they maintain recognition of Israel, the Iranians just won't be able to control terrorist groups from stealing some bombs.

Or they just blow up a few places so the noise wakes up their sleeping Mahdi.

64 MikeAlv77  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:47:43am

The thing that scares me with the Iranians is that MAD (mutual assured destruction) does not work with people who don't care if they take millions of casualties to wipe out Israel. How do you negotiate with psychos?

65 dhg4  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:04am

re: #22 zombie

I'm quite sure the nuke will be smuggled in by ground or sea. It will not be a missile. Iran has total access to the Israeli border with their pipeline to Hezbollah in the north, and Hamas in the south. Missile defense will be useless.

Any experts on Israeli naval coastal defenses? Could Iran false-flag a ship and get it into the harbor at Tel Aviv? Or is every single approaching vessel stopped at sea and searched?

The person I'd address that to is J. E. Dyer.

66 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:09am

re: #54 NelsFree

Nevergiveup: "What if it doesn't work?"
NelsFree: "What if grasshoppers packed heat, would the robins try to eat them? What if frogs had wings, would they bump their backsides when they land?"
/Sheesh.

I meant that we can't wait till Iran takes a shot. We have to act preemptively. I wasn't really disagreeing with you.

67 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:23am

re: #38 experiencedtraveller

Don't forget about counter-strike capacity in your analysis...

If the Mad Mullahs care about retaliation.

68 Kragar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:30am

re: #64 MikeAlv77

The thing that scares me with the Iranians is that MAD (mutual assured destruction) does not work with people who don't care if they take millions of casualties to wipe out Israel. How do you negotiate with psychos?

You keep them talking till the sniper is set up for the headshot.

69 KingKenrod  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:49am

re: #47 NelsFree

White House Chief of Staff links countering Iran threat to Israeli peace with Palis:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The task of forming an international coalition to thwart Iran's nuclear program will be made easier if progress is made in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, according to sources in Washington.

Emanuel's statement is simply not true. China and Russia will block any action against Iran in the UN Security Council, and Europe will always put their economic interests first whether the Israelis make "peace" with the PLO, uh, I mean the PA. So what coalition is Emanuel talking about?

70 JohnnyReb  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:48:58am

re: #59 Altermite

The scary thing is that MAD isn't going to work here. MAD only works if the other guy doesn't want to die either.

Kind of hard to sit down and negotiate with someone who thinks bringing about the end of the world through violence is part of Gods big plan.

71 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:49:14am

re: #64 MikeAlv77

The thing that scares me with the Iranians is that MAD (mutual assured destruction) does not work with people who don't care if they take millions of casualties to wipe out Israel. How do you negotiate with psychos?

You know how. Not wanting to get yelled at or banned, we have to be diplomatic. But you know.

72 flyovercountry  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:49:31am

Train Wreck:

Those of us living in flyover country have all grown up around trains. the neat thing about a train wreck, is that many times, you know a good 15 to 20 minutes in advance that it is going to take place. Nothing can be done to stop them. Momentum is a hell of an unyielding thing. The simple formula of mv = m'v', while simple in its statement has nifty ramifications. Iran has announced on numerous occasions that they intend to use the nukes on you know who. Now, on the eve of their joining the nuclear fraternity, the pacifists ask, "are they serious." Well, the short answer is tell the kiddies to hide under their desks once again. These animals who have zero regard for human life, are deadly serious. As a world, we zigged when we should have zagged, repeatedly.

73 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:07am

Telling the Israelis they must negotiate with Hamas is like telling the families of deceased service persons that they must negotiate with the Phelps family.

74 dhg4  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:33am

re: #49 Mad Al-Jaffee

That reminds me - I watched the movie Operation Thunderbolt this weekend (free on Netflix!) It's a pretty cheesy movie, but I was amazed by the planning and operation of the raid on the Entebbe airport by the IDF.

It was pretty disturbing to see terrorist yelling at a Jewish hostage (with a number tattoo on his arm) in German.

I remember that New York Magazine had an account of the Entebbe rescue. The article mentioned one incident when the Jewish passengers were separated from the other ones. One of the hijackers saw the tatoo on one of the hostages and the hostage made some comment. The hijacker was defensive and said (something like) "we're not like that." (But of course he was.)

75 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:36am

re: #47 NelsFree

White House Chief of Staff links countering Iran threat to Israeli peace with Palis:

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

The task of forming an international coalition to thwart Iran's nuclear program will be made easier if progress is made in peace negotiations between Israel and the Palestinians, White House Chief of Staff Rahm Emanuel has said, according to sources in Washington.

Which has it backwards, because Hamas won't make peace with a Jewish state of Israel as long as Iran is supporting them.
(They might be agreeing to a hudna, but we know what that means)

76 alegrias  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:38am

OT
Antisemite Democrat Rep. Jim Moran, who blamed "neocons" for "pushing" President Bush to invade Iraq also held public forums on "Is IRAN NEXT?" here in Alexandria, Virginia.

Jim Moran the antisemite doesn't want the US to stand up to Iran, so he's on board with Pres. Obama's policy of weakness towards Iran and pushing Israel to accomodate Arabs' crazy demand.

Antisemite Moran was at my Metro station this morning, wearing on his lapel the campaign buttons of all 6 democrats running for city council & mayor of Alexandria.

I beg you to contact anyone you know in Alexandria, VA to vote TODAY (TUESDAY until 7 pm EST) for the 3 GOP candidates for City Council of Alexandria: Frank Fannon, Phil Cefaratti and Alicia Hughes (listed as Independent because she works for the Federal Govt.)

Time to throw the antisemite's cronies OUT.

I'm off to vote now but we're seriously outnumbered in this 99% one party city where Obama wants to put GITMO boyz.

Thanks for listening.

77 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:41am

re: #59 Altermite

It took two Nukes to get Japan to surrender. Plus wholesale carpet bombing of cities containing munitions factories.

78 Golem Akbar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:50:54am

The left will tsk tsk and complain a bit, but mostly they'll just dither and do nothing. It's still going to be up to Israel to defend itself, and it must do that. Obama can't do it. And as we now know, Bush wasn't all that good, either.

79 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:51:21am

re: #63 Kosh's Shadow

And Gates blocked the sale of bunker-busters to Israel, back when Bush was still president.

Of course, it is possible that Iran doesn't actually detonate a bomb, but announces they have some, and that all the Arab countries, especially the oil-producing ones, had better listen to them, and stop selling oil to any country that still recognizes Israel. And the same goes for the US and Europe; if they maintain recognition of Israel, the Iranians just won't be able to control terrorist groups from stealing some bombs.

Or they just blow up a few places so the noise wakes up their sleeping Mahdi.

It might take guys on the ground. Israel seems to have way better intel than the US when Iran is concerned. The Israeli Air could get to the sites, but even the USA does not possess the armaments necessary to destroy those facility unless a tactical nuke is used (and that is not happening either). Israel can either live with a nuclear Iran (maybe) or do something about it before they go nuclear. Both choices are tough to handle.

80 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:51:26am

One thing we have never seen, at least since 1973 is the IDF and the IAF totally opening a can of whoop ass on someone. The next time the terrorists fire even one missile or shoot one bullet at Israeli soil, I think the left and right in Israel need to agree one one response. Overwhelming, disproportionate retaliation at every terrorist group they're capable of hitting. That is all their enemies understand. And the Israelis need to be so fucking nasty and violent that it shocks the world.

Nothing else has worked or will work.

81 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:52:09am

re: #59 Altermite

The scary thing is that MAD isn't going to work here. MAD only works if the other guy doesn't want to die either.

MAD only works if both sides are anything but mad.
The Mad Mullahs are mad as mad hatters.
MAD with the mad is very bad.

82 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:52:37am

re: #60 baier

Maybe Obama can throw a BBQ and get everyone be friends.
The US needs to get off Israel's back and watch it instead.

A pig roast? Insult both the Jews and Muslims!

83 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:52:57am

re: #79 Desert Dog

It might take guys on the ground. Israel seems to have way better intel than the US when Iran is concerned. The Israeli Air could get to the sites, but even the USA does not possess the armaments necessary to destroy those facility unless a tactical nuke is used (and that is not happening either). Israel can either live with a nuclear Iran (maybe) or do something about it before they go nuclear. Both choices are tough to handle.

Yup. But in my opinion when you have only bad choices, the worst choice is to do nothing at all.

84 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:04am

re: #66 Nevergiveup

Okay, NGU, no problemo.
*HUG*

85 captdiggs  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:13am

Israel is increasingly under pressure to appease, and that pressure is now coming from the new US administration.
It's bad foreign policy to blackmail an ally in order to force appeasement of those who only become more belligerent with each act of appeasement.
The price for all this will come, that much is sure. How high a price is yet undetermined and could be years away.
I am sure that Jimmy Carter never foresaw the current results of his decisions regarding Iran in 1979 that resulted in the Genesis of today's jihadism and the spread of Islamist ideology. But we are all paying for his policies now.

86 nyc redneck  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:25am

biden is a fcking idiot to tell israel it needs to get used to iran having nukes.
it is so upsetting to have such dumb sob's in power in this country.
sanity has left the room.

87 funky chicken  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:27am

re: #4 Alouette

For every Benny Morris, there is a Larry Derfner, a Gideon Levy, a Gershon Baskin, an Arik Ascherman, an Amira Levy, a Naomi Chazan, a Yossi Beilin, drunk on the Kool-aid of "peace at any price" and driving the peacemobile wrong way down the highway.

you don't find it encouraging that one of "theirs" has woken up and smelled the coffee?

88 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:28am

"Mutual assured destruction was the main deterrent preventing the use of nuclear weapons by the Soviets ... For Ahmadinejad and his group, with their apocalyptic mind-set, mutual assured destruction is not a deterrent but an inducement." – Bernard Lewis

89 albusteve  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:53:33am

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

One thing we have never seen, at least since 1973 is the IDF and the IAF totally opening a can of whoop ass on someone. The next time the terrorists fire even one missile or shoot one bullet at Israeli soil, I think the left and right in Israel need to agree one one response. Overwhelming, disproportionate retaliation at every terrorist group they're capable of hitting. That is all their enemies understand. And the Israelis need to be so fucking nasty and violent that it shocks the world.

Nothing else has worked or will work.

they had their chance with the Gaza incursion....they folded

90 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:54:06am

re: #86 nyc redneck

biden is a fcking idiot to tell israel it needs to get used to iran having nukes.
it is so upsetting to have such dumb sob's in power in this country.
sanity has left the room.

The adults are no longer in charge

91 Golem Akbar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:54:24am

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

One thing we have never seen, at least since 1973 is the IDF and the IAF totally opening a can of whoop ass on someone. The next time the terrorists fire even one missile or shoot one bullet at Israeli soil, I think the left and right in Israel need to agree one one response. Overwhelming, disproportionate retaliation at every terrorist group they're capable of hitting. That is all their enemies understand. And the Israelis need to be so fucking nasty and violent that it shocks the world.

Nothing else has worked or will work.


I agree, but they won't do it. They operate under a very strict ethical system, and really, unless it's their back-to-the-wall/do-or-die, they pull most of their punches.

92 MikeAlv77  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:54:30am

re: #71 Nevergiveup

You know how. Not wanting to get yelled at or banned, we have to be diplomatic. But you know.

I agree with you but I didn't want to get banned either with what I would say to complete my thought... ;)

93 experiencedtraveller  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:54:35am

re: #67 Kosh's Shadow

If the Mad Mullahs care about retaliation.

That is the question. Would they care? As Nevergiveup correctly states above the damage would already be done.

94 Racer X  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:55:10am

Can someone please get Joe Biden a Teleprompter?

95 NelsFree  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:55:19am

BBL

96 alegrias  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:55:34am

re: #76 alegrias

OT
Antisemite Democrat Rep. Jim Moran, who blamed "neocons" for "pushing" President Bush to invade Iraq also held public forums on "Is IRAN NEXT?" here in Alexandria, Virginia.

Jim Moran the antisemite doesn't want the US to stand up to Iran, so he's on board with Pres. Obama's policy of weakness towards Iran and pushing Israel to accomodate Arabs' crazy demand.

Antisemite Moran was at my Metro station this morning, wearing on his lapel the campaign buttons of all 6 democrats running for city council & mayor of Alexandria.

I beg you to contact anyone you know in Alexandria, VA to vote TODAY (TUESDAY until 7 pm EST) for the 3 GOP candidates for City Council of Alexandria: Frank Fannon, Phil Cefaratti and Alicia Hughes (listed as Independent because she works for the Federal Govt.)

Time to throw the antisemite's cronies OUT.

I'm off to vote now but we're seriously outnumbered in this 99% one party city where Obama wants to put GITMO boyz.

Thanks for listening.

* * * * * * *
PS, if you vote today in the above mentioned Alexandria, VA city council election, ONLY vote for the
GOP's Frank Fannon, Phil Cefaratti and Alicia Hughes.

Please only cast three votes of the 6 allowed, so you don't give any votes to the democrats, and hurt the 3 GOP candidates' chances.

Thank you again for helping us toss out antisemite Moran's friends & cronies of this city where Moran was mayor before he became our congressional rep.

97 LGoPs  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:55:56am

Even rabiits have the sense to shun liberalism. Want to know how I know that?
Because they're not extinct, that's why.
If there were liberal rabbits they'd be trying to convince other rabbits that profiling and taking precautions around wolves and hawks was unacceptable and would hurt the self esteem of said wolves and hawks.
Rabbits have more common sense than the Left.

98 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:55:57am

re: #91 Golem Akbar

I agree, but they won't do it. They operate under a very strict ethical system, and really, unless it's their back-to-the-wall/do-or-die, they pull most of their punches.

That wall is getting kinda near.

99 albusteve  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:56:05am

re: #94 Racer X

Can someone please get Joe Biden a Teleprompter?

can permanent laryngitis be induced somehow?....

100 Land Shark  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:56:09am

It isn't just the Israeli Left that needs to wake up. The large majority of Jews who voted in the '08 election voted for Obama They need to start paying attention to the Obama administration and become very, very afraid. As a strong supporter of Israel, I'm scared shit-less of what these fools will do the next time Hamas and Hezbollah decide to start another war. With the scary possibility of Iran being nuclear weapons capable by then.

The US is no longer the ally they can always depend on, Obama is far more interested in raising his popularity and prestige in the Muslim world than Israel's security. I fear this administration will turn it's back on Israel when the going gets tough. Looking at Obama's past and current associations, it's a very likely scenario. Like I said before, time to be afraid, be very afraid.

101 JohnnyReb  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:56:24am

re: #83 Nevergiveup

Yup. But in my opinion when you have only bad choices, the worst choice is to do nothing at all.

I remember my drill Sargent in the Army. He was always saying: "Make a GD decision son, any decision! Right or wrong, make a decision. By not making a decision you already made one."

Took me awhile to figure out what the heck he was trying to say, but eventually I did. That statement has pretty much ruled my life since then. Seems to work for me.

102 brookly red  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:56:47am

I said on a thread sometime ago that if Israel does strike Iran it will be done by code writers & not jet pilots. I still think that this how it will go down.

103 Golem Akbar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:56:56am

re: #98 Nevergiveup

That wall is getting kinda near.


I'm afraid you're right. And really, I hope [and pray] you're wrong.

104 KenJen  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:57:12am

re: #94 Racer X

Can someone please get Joe Biden a Teleprompter?

Muzzle him.

105 OldLineTexan  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:57:51am

re: #104 KenJen

Muzzle him.

IMO, the Obama Administration has sidelined Crazy Joe pretty well.

106 alegrias  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:57:54am

re: #94 Racer X

Can someone please get Joe Biden a Teleprompter?

* * * *
No, don't hand the Veep a lifeline. Let Joe Biden be Joe Biden!

The sooner everyone realizes what a loser he is, the better for our country & planet.

107 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:58:00am

re: #93 experiencedtraveller

That is the question. Would they care? As Nevergiveup correctly states above the damage would already be done.


In the cult of the 12th Imam bringing about Armageddon brings about the return of the Mahdi.

It's not that they would or would not care. It's their stated goal.

108 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:58:10am

re: #104 KenJen

Muzzle him.

Frontal lobotomy might work

109 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:58:28am

re: #94 Racer X

Can someone please get Joe Biden a Teleprompter?

Hell no, he's more fun with out one.
;-)

110 Golem Akbar  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:58:45am

re: #102 brookly red

I said on a thread sometime ago that if Israel does strike Iran it will be done by code writers & not jet pilots. I still think that this how it will go down.

That would be awesome, but somehow I doubt that would be enough.

111 KenJen  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:04am

re: #108 Nevergiveup

Frontal lobotomy might work

I thought he already had one of those.

112 OldLineTexan  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:06am

re: #108 Nevergiveup

Frontal lobotomy might work

Why? The first one did no good.

/

113 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:33am

re: #111 KenJen

I thought he already had one of those.

That was a full bottle in front of him.

114 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:43am

re: #91 Golem Akbar

I agree, but they won't do it. They operate under a very strict ethical system, and really, unless it's their back-to-the-wall/do-or-die, they pull most of their punches.

their backs are to the wall ... and unless they kick some ass, their enemies will always be on the offensive and never be forced to play defense. Give Bush credit for understanding this theory. By taking it to the bad guys, you make them have to worry about surviving and they have less time to plot against the good guys.

115 JustABill  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:44am

re: #26 JohnnyReb

I actually have heard people say just that. A friend commented that everything would be OK if all of the Jews just picked up and left and went back to where they came from in 1948.

Wow, you should have hit that one out of the park. "You mean like Auschwitz? Or perhaps Dachau?"

116 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:59am

re: #100 Land Shark

It isn't just the Israeli Left that needs to wake up. The large majority of Jews who voted in the '08 election voted for Obama They need to start paying attention to the Obama administration and become very, very afraid. As a strong supporter of Israel, I'm scared shit-less of what these fools will do the next time Hamas and Hezbollah decide to start another war. With the scary possibility of Iran being nuclear weapons capable by then.

The US is no longer the ally they can always depend on, Obama is far more interested in raising his popularity and prestige in the Muslim world than Israel's security. I fear this administration will turn it's back on Israel when the going gets tough. Looking at Obama's past and current associations, it's a very likely scenario. Like I said before, time to be afraid, be very afraid.

Most of the liberal, leftist Jews I know (I know a lot of liberals, I'm in the entertainment business), don't really care that much about Israel, so they don't have much of a need to "wake up."

Yea, I talk to them, they think Israel should exist, but everything after that is wide open, Israel should give this up, they shouldn't be doing this or that, they need to try those other things...

The left in general is not a staunch supporter of Israel, why would a leftist Jew be any different?

117 brookly red  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:00:00am

re: #110 Golem Akbar

That would be awesome, but somehow I doubt that would be enough.

I would be a good first step, things break better from the inside.

118 dhg4  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:00:44am

re: #9 zombie

The turning point came in the early '70s when the Palestinian terrorists, specifically Leila Khalid and the PFLP, started adopting Marxist narratives to describe their actions. Instead of "Kill the Jews!", it become "Overturn the imperialist Israeli occupiers to liberate the oppressed Palestinian class!"

The Israeli far left fell for it, hook line and sinker, So all the terrorists started adopting the same verbiage, and the sickness spread from the Israeli far left to the mainstream Israeli left.

And we've been suffering the consequences ever since.

And let's not forget their accomplices like Hanan Ashrawi's former boyfriend, Peter Jennings:

Martin Peretz, publisher of The New Republic, wrote (Sept. 13, 2001):

"I first saw Jennings on ABC when, as a young TV journalist, he reported from the Munich Olympics. And I was filled with disgust that his subsequent career has only deepened. At Munich -- I still remember it, 30 years later -- Jennings tried to explain away the abductions and massacre of the young Israeli athletes. His theme: The Palestinians were helpless and desperate. Ipso facto, they were driven to murder. That's life..."

They learned the language of freedom fighting and became terrorist chic for the Left.

119 KenJen  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:01:38am

re: #113 jcm

That was a full bottle in front of him.

Doesn't he remind you of cousin Eddie for Christmas Vacation.

120 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:01:43am

re: #89 albusteve

they had their chance with the Gaza incursion....they folded


they didn't want obama coming into office while the guns were blazing. they were wrong.

121 Desert Dog  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:03:02am

re: #105 OldLineTexan

IMO, the Obama Administration has sidelined Crazy Joe pretty well.

NO, no, no hand him a microphone and let me talk 24 hours a day. He does more damage to Obama than the Republican sheep in Congress could ever hope to do.

122 albusteve  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:03:24am

re: #120 _RememberTonyC

they didn't want obama coming into office while the guns were blazing. they were wrong.

exactly backwards....a cease fire put BO in the game whereas continuing on would have kept the ball in their court and frozen BO out to some extent....chicken shits

123 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:04:19am

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Most of the liberal, leftist Jews I know (I know a lot of liberals, I'm in the entertainment business), don't really care that much about Israel, so they don't have much of a need to "wake up."

Yea, I talk to them, they think Israel should exist, but everything after that is wide open, Israel should give this up, they shouldn't be doing this or that, they need to try those other things...

The left in general is not a staunch supporter of Israel, why would a leftist Jew be any different?

Your 100% correct. The Liberal Jews I know, for the most part, have never been to Israel and are ignorant of it's history. And I would not want most of them in a foxhole with me in any fight.

124 Albigensian  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:04:43am

Perhaps the Israeli left has noticed the sea-change in the non-Israeli left, in that practically all of the non-Israeli left has become hardline Hamas supporters who have moved from tolerating the occasional anti-Israel crank to an all-out insistance that Israel is not a legitimate state and has no right to exist?

125 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:05:05am

Howdy folks. Just s rive by post here.

Did you see this at NTV?

I did a German to English translation and got this:

Iran has first mentioned in which period the destruction of Israel in the case of armed conflict is possible. Israeli television showed an interview with the iranian chief of joint forces attalah Salihi during the lebanese television. Literally said this: "The truth is that Israel is not the courage to tell us attack. We should an attack subjected, i do not believe that we have more than eleven days need, the existence of Israel into oblivion."

The Arabienexperte oded Granot said: "never before have we are so clear and open announcement of Iran is one.' While voted president Ahmadinedschad the destruction of Israel again and again "in large trains and as a political objective" announced, but has never been so specifically and with time, as it Salihi did.

...Previously, the UNITED STATES with the idea "better bomb as bomb" made it clear that it is in Washington under President Barack your with the construction of an Iranian atomic bomb resigned to accept. The senior Europeans, a Exklusivbericht of israeli television that these assessments to the "little surprised" Israelis passed.

Maybe someone can do a better translation than the internet.

126 KenJen  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:05:51am

Bye guys. I'm going to help my ex-boyfriend pack up his soon to be ex-wife's stuff. It's complicated.

127 Earick  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:06:28am

re: #72 flyovercountry

Excellent analogy!

The followers of the 'profit in the well' have only one gaol! To bring about the Armageddon that will bring about a world caliphate.
Momentum is everything to this world view.

128 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:07:03am

re: #126 KenJen

Bye guys. I'm going to help my ex-boyfriend pack up his soon to be ex-wife's stuff. It's complicated.

Sounds like you better bring birth control?
/ kinda?

129 Liechtentrager  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:08:01am

re: #80 _RememberTonyC

Unclear who or what, if anyone, Israel is supposed to retaliate against if an Iranian nuke (with Iran denying any involvement) is smuggled in by way of Jordan or Egypt (with whom Israel has signed peace treaties), and detonated by a group claiming to be affiliated with al-Qaeda. What is Israel's "retaliatory posture" supposed to be?

130 Land Shark  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:08:13am

re: #116 Walter L. Newton

Unfortunately what you say is very true. I know many Jewish liberals (my wife works for a Jewish social service agency) and many are ambivalent about Israel, or believe Israel is the one that needs to make more concessions. I point out that Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinians but it's never enough. Leftists in general seem allergic to reality.

131 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:08:23am

re: #122 albusteve

exactly backwards....a cease fire put BO in the game whereas continuing on would have kept the ball in their court and frozen BO out to some extent....chicken shits

they were more concerned with making obama happy than doing what was right for their nation. more fecklessness from olmert and co. I hope Bibi understands that he has the backing of most American citizens for whatever he needs to do. Fuck this administration and their pandering to terrorists. Israel will still be around when Barack is out of the White House and hanging out at the mall with the WAB.

132 jcm  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:08:53am

re: #126 KenJen

Bye guys. I'm going to help my ex-boyfriend pack up his soon to be ex-wife's stuff. It's complicated.

You must be a Hollywood writer.....

////// ;-P

133 wiffersnapper  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:09:16am

Took 'em long enough

134 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:09:20am

re: #129 Liechtentrager

Unclear who or what, if anyone, Israel is supposed to retaliate against if an Iranian nuke (with Iran denying any involvement) is smuggled in by way of Jordan or Egypt (with whom Israel has signed peace treaties), and detonated by a group claiming to be affiliated with al-Qaeda. What is Israel's "retaliatory posture" supposed to be?


go after iran's proxies ... hamas in gaza and hexbollah in lebanon. simple.

135 KenJen  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:10:01am

re: #128 Nevergiveup

Oh no you didn't just go there.///

136 Walter L. Newton  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:10:14am

re: #130 Land Shark

Unfortunately what you say is very true. I know many Jewish liberals (my wife works for a Jewish social service agency) and many are ambivalent about Israel, or believe Israel is the one that needs to make more concessions. I point out that Israel has bent over backwards to accommodate the Palestinians but it's never enough. Leftists in general seem allergic to reality.

Lefties are idealistic. Conservatives are realistic. Idealism is fine, between wars, conflicts or dangerous moments. But when the shit hits the fan, the realists are always the ones called in to clean up the mess.

137 MikeAlv77  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:10:51am

re: #134 _RememberTonyC

go after iran's proxies ... hamas in gaza and hexbollah in lebanon. simple.

Not so simple unfortunately. They live among a "civilian" population (that supports them openly) but the world will only see civlians getting nuked. They will tsk-tsk the "unfortunate" casulaties in Tel Aviv and Haifa but will go crazy if Israel attacks.

138 NonNativeTexan  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:11:34am

I have longed believed we need clear borders. Israel, with
support of the US should build a "fence" around all of it's existing
border. Then you can say to Egypt, and the rest of the world,
the Palestinians can build their own country or assimilate into
Egypt and other countries. But Israel will protect itself from
rocket attacks, but we have no more interest in land for peace.
This is our border, live with it.

139 Orangutan  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:11:39am
“They recognize that we’re not on the verge of peace, that this conflict may not be resolvable, and that they were naive to think that was the case.”

The problem with others' naivete is it can cost you your reputation while they sort it out. This is probably the feature of blind mainstream liberalism I find most tiring.

140 Land Shark  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:11:41am

re: #131 _RememberTonyC

Your line "Fuck this administration and their pandering to terrorists" needs to be on a t-shirt. Hear, hear!

141 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:12:56am

re: #137 MikeAlv77

Not so simple unfortunately. They live among a "civilian" population (that supports them openly) but the world will only see civlians getting nuked. They will tsk-tsk the "unfortunate" casulaties in Tel Aviv and Haifa but will go crazy if Israel attacks.

If - G-D forbid- Israel is ever attacked with a Nuclear Weapon, half the Middle East will disappear in retaliation. That is what "liberals" and those in charge in Washington today better understand.

142 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:13:17am
143 LGoPs  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:13:29am

re: #64 MikeAlv77

The thing that scares me with the Iranians is that MAD (mutual assured destruction) does not work with people who don't care if they take millions of casualties to wipe out Israel. How do you negotiate with psychos?

This is probably a stupid idea but what the hell. We should fly over and drop millions of flyers explaining exactly what will happen if Iran uses a nuke. Explain the whole fire and brimstone thingy that will result from such an act.
Even though the leaders of the country are nuts and consequently immune to MAD, that doesn't mean the average citizen eating their falafel are just as nuts. Stir things up a bit and get the folks talking.

144 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:13:37am

re: #137 MikeAlv77

Not so simple unfortunately. They live among a "civilian" population (that supports them openly) but the world will only see civlians getting nuked. They will tsk-tsk the "unfortunate" casulaties in Tel Aviv and Haifa but will go crazy if Israel attacks.

Yes, they won't call the inhabitants of Tel Aviv and Haifa "innocent civilians" - except the Arabs who live there.

145 JustABill  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:14:23am

re: #141 Nevergiveup

If - G-D forbid- Israel is ever attacked with a Nuclear Weapon, half the Middle East will disappear in retaliation. That is what "liberals" and those in charge in Washington today better understand.

Bingo, If Israel is attacked by the Umma, they will retaliate against the Umma.

146 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:14:29am

re: #137 MikeAlv77

Not so simple unfortunately. They live among a "civilian" population (that supports them openly) but the world will only see civlians getting nuked. They will tsk-tsk the "unfortunate" casulaties in Tel Aviv and Haifa but will go crazy if Israel attacks.

you're right, but "world opinion" will always be against Israel, even if they drop leaflets with dollar bills on hamas and hezbollah. so if they're going to be condemned anyway, what do they have to lose? they may as well achieve something constructive next time.

147 Golem Akbar  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:15:11am

re: #141 Nevergiveup

If - G-D forbid- Israel is ever attacked with a Nuclear Weapon, half the Middle East will disappear in retaliation. That is what "liberals" and those in charge in Washington today better understand.


And don't forget, if any major Israeli city is bombed, the adjacent Arab towns will also be incinerated. The Mullahs know this. The Palis also know this.

148 Dave the.....  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:15:19am

So for kicks, I went to Huffington to see what they had to say about Murtha's nephew getting a no-bid contract to do $4M of little or no work. I was shocked when most commentators condemned Murtha. Even noting other Murtha family ethical problems.

Then I read a little deeper into the comments. Soon the conversation shifted to how this was really Bush's fault (seriously) and not a Democrat problem. Also how it's "only $4 million" and not worth worrying about.

149 Erik The Red  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:16:21am

re: #142 taxfreekiller

The American Left has reached its wrong solution to Americas problems,,,Obama.

The lefts solution to all problems is "Lets talk about it". The biggest problem in the ME has been talk. There is and will never be peace in The Middle East.

150 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:16:34am

re: #140 Land Shark

Thanks LandShark ... I think Mandy would be proud of me :)

151 SFGoth  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:17:04am

It was pretty tough in '97 and '98, when I would attend Jewish social gatherings here in S.F., to hold my tongue every time the subject of "peace" with the Phakestinians came up. I so wanted to say "Wake up! These savages don't want peace with Israel. They want to wipe it out!" but I didn't. Now, friends from back then are admitting I was right. Too little, too late? The Oslo accords should've had a forfeiture clause if the PLO didn't live up to its obligations, but that would've been "bad mojo".

152 SFGoth  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:17:30am

re: #147 Golem Akbar

And don't forget, if any major Israeli city is bombed, the adjacent Arab towns will also be incinerated. The Mullahs know this. The Palis also know this.

And with a religion like Islam, why would they care?

153 subsailor68  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:17:41am

re: #136 Walter L. Newton

Lefties are idealistic. Conservatives are realistic. Idealism is fine, between wars, conflicts or dangerous moments. But when the shit hits the fan, the realists are always the ones called in to clean up the mess.

Absolutely! It reminds me of the film "A Few Good Men". Back in 1992, I'd guess Aaron Sorkin putting "You can't handle the truth" in Jack Nicholson's mouth was his way of snickering at the "hawks".

After 9-11, I think many people began to hear that line a different way.

And that's called irony!

;-)

154 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:18:43am

re: #153 subsailor68

Absolutely! It reminds me of the film "A Few Good Men". Back in 1992, I'd guess Aaron Sorkin putting "You can't handle the truth" in Jack Nicholson's mouth was his way of snickering at the "hawks".

After 9-11, I think many people began to hear that line a different way.

And that's called irony!

;-)

I root for Jack every time. And the 2 Marines also.

155 Racer X  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:19:06am

re: #129 Liechtentrager

Unclear who or what, if anyone, Israel is supposed to retaliate against if an Iranian nuke (with Iran denying any involvement) is smuggled in by way of Jordan or Egypt (with whom Israel has signed peace treaties), and detonated by a group claiming to be affiliated with al-Qaeda. What is Israel's "retaliatory posture" supposed to be?

And that right there is why Israel will not wait until Iran has nukes. Look for a strike within the next two months. They already hate Israel and would gladly wipe her off the map given the chance. What will change if they wipe out the Iran Nuke facility?

156 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:20:40am

re: #155 Racer X

And that right there is why Israel will not wait until Iran has nukes. Look for a strike within the next two months. They already hate Israel and would gladly wipe her off the map given the chance. What will change if they wipe out the Iran Nuke facility?

They should have struck before Bush left the White House. One day we may find out why they did not. I hope that decision was not fatal.

157 Gang of One  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:20:44am

re: #147 Golem Akbar

And don't forget, if any major Israeli city is bombed, the adjacent Arab towns will also be incinerated. The Mullahs know this. The Palis also know this.

The Samson Option? Does that not include several EUnich cities as well?

158 JohnAdams  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:20:49am

Israel is the canary in the coal mine for the West. This is how bad it must get before the will to survive kicks in for some people. Truly frightening implications for Israel now, for the rest of us down the road.

159 Promethea  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:21:04am

re: #100 Land Shark

It isn't just the Israeli Left that needs to wake up. The large majority of Jews who voted in the '08 election voted for Obama They need to start paying attention to the Obama administration and become very, very afraid. As a strong supporter of Israel, I'm scared shit-less of what these fools will do the next time Hamas and Hezbollah decide to start another war. With the scary possibility of Iran being nuclear weapons capable by then.

The US is no longer the ally they can always depend on, Obama is far more interested in raising his popularity and prestige in the Muslim world than Israel's security. I fear this administration will turn it's back on Israel when the going gets tough. Looking at Obama's past and current associations, it's a very likely scenario. Like I said before, time to be afraid, be very afraid.

American Jews are asleep. Despite my regular reading of Dr. Sanity's blog, I still can't get a grip on why liberal Jews (who "mean well") refuse to get a grip on reality. They will not look critically at Obama. It's very sad.

There are plenty of these fools in Israel too. I've talked to them, and they refuse to give up on the Palestinians, which is the first step toward self-defense, in my opinion.

Yes, yes, I know there are thousands of innocent Palestinians, but Israel will always be threatened until it treats its enemies like actual enemies and not just misguided pussycats.

160 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:21:23am

re: #157 Gang of One

The Samson Option? Does that not include several EUnich cities as well?

My answer would get me banned.

161 DaddyG  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:22:04am

re: #60 baier

Maybe Obama can throw a BBQ and get everyone be friends.
The US needs to get off Israel's back and watch it instead.

Given the track record of this administrations etiquette team they would pprobably arrange a huge pig roast for the Jews and Muslims to get together over.

162 Liechtentrager  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #134 _RememberTonyC

go after iran's proxies ... hamas in gaza and hexbollah in lebanon. simple.

Not sure it's that simple. The best deterrent against a nuclear attack is making sure your adversary is certain of a devastating nuclear response. Therefore, Israel would need to be very clear ahead of time that they would use nuclear weapons against Lebanon and/or Gaza if any attack was traced to those areas. Even if they carried out the threat, so what?

(1) Tel Aviv is destroyed with hundreds of thousands of casualties.
(2) Beirut or some other Lebanese city is destroyed, with hundreds of thousands of casualties, only a tiny percentage of whom are Hizbollah. Obviously, Lebanon claims Israel committed unprovoked genocide.
(3) Iran suffers zero casualties.

Did I miss anything?

163 Gang of One  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:22:19am

re: #160 Nevergiveup

My answer would get me banned.

NGU, not advocating destruction of any city, merely asking if what I had heard is true.

164 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:24:33am

re: #163 Gang of One

NGU, not advocating destruction of any city, merely asking if what I had heard is true.

Honestly I don't remember but I am pretty sure it included some southern Russian Cities because at the time, that is where it was assumed the Arabs would get any Nuclear Weapon.

165 3 Sigma E  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:25:08am

Even if the Jews of Israel went back to "where they were from," many of them are Sephardi, whose ancestors have lived in what is now Israel (or elsewhere in the Middle East) for centuries, if they ever left. For example when Spain kicked the Jews out in 1492, the Ottoman Empire took more than two-thirds of them in.

For better or worse, however, the story of Israel and Zionism is told from the Ashkenasi perspective; that's only half the story.

166 SFGoth  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:26:19am

re: #126 KenJen

Bye guys. I'm going to help my ex-boyfriend pack up his soon to be ex-wife's stuff. It's complicated.

So you're a gay man who's remained friends with a boyfriend whose wife, who's undergoing sex change surgery, is divorcing him because he's gay. Yeah, that's complicated.

167 SFGoth  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:26:50am

re: #154 Nevergiveup

I root for Jack every time. And the 2 Marines also.

"Code Red". Pfffft. It's called a blanket party.

168 _RememberTonyC  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:26:56am

re: #162 Liechtentrager

Not sure it's that simple. The best deterrent against a nuclear attack is making sure your adversary is certain of a devastating nuclear response. Therefore, Israel would need to be very clear ahead of time that they would use nuclear weapons against Lebanon and/or Gaza if any attack was traced to those areas. Even if they carried out the threat, so what?

(1) Tel Aviv is destroyed with hundreds of thousands of casualties.
(2) Beirut or some other Lebanese city is destroyed, with hundreds of thousands of casualties, only a tiny percentage of whom are Hizbollah. Obviously, Lebanon claims Israel committed unprovoked genocide.
(3) Iran suffers zero casualties.

Did I miss anything?


Yes. What you missed in my original post was that I suggested massive retaliation against iran's terrorist proxies the next time they fire a single missile or bullet against Israel. Any missile or bullet. Not when there is a nuclear attack against Israel, but the next time there is ANY attack against Israel.

169 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:27:19am

This bastid wakes up now. For 20 years he has been crapping on Israel. How many times did I get blessed with listening to this apologist get interviewed on NPR. He helped sow the seeds of Israel hatred and now he is dismayed at the outcome?

BTW - this is my first post on LGFs. Hello friends.

170 Erik The Red  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:28:30am

re: #169 Curtain of Oz

This bastid wakes up now. For 20 years he has been crapping on Israel. How many times did I get blessed with listening to this apologist get interviewed on NPR. He helped sow the seeds of Israel hatred and now he is dismayed at the outcome?

BTW - this is my first post on LGFs. Hello friends.

Welcome CoOz

171 DaddyG  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:28:44am

re: #157 Gang of One

The Samson Option? Does that not include several EUnich cities as well?

Only the Islamic ones... like London and Paris ///

172 pittrader1988  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:29:39am

If the Israeli left change, and side with the way the Israeli right views things, how long before the left wing here that is anti-Israel switches sides and views things through the lens of conservatives? (At least on policy with Israel?)

173 Gang of One  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:30:11am

re: #164 Nevergiveup

I think I heard that as well. There was a lizard here some time ago, BigL, used to spew all kinds of anti-EUro stuff and make references to it, IIRC.

174 Gang of One  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:33:27am

re: #167 SFGoth

"Code Red". Pfffft. It's called a blanket party.

Like this?

175 Ilan Toren  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:34:54am

re: #4 Alouette

For every Benny Morris, there is a Larry Derfner, a Gideon Levy, a Gershon Baskin, an Arik Ascherman, an Amira Levy, a Naomi Chazan, a Yossi Beilin, drunk on the Kool-aid of "peace at any price" and driving the peacemobile wrong way down the highway.

And now we have Joe Biden and Obama parroting the already discredited Israeli left fantasy. Of course, Sharon and Olmert have undermined any Israeli stand that doesn't include wide ranging concessions to Israel's security and paradoxically made any sort of peace agreement even more remote of a prospect. Now that Olmert is gone Assad is refusing to even talk about negotiating without a Israel conceding all of the Golan in advance. Similarly the Abbas wants Netanyahu to concede on a complete withdrawal to the '49 armistice lines as a condition for talking.

And in the US amateur hour is just getting started.

176 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:36:14am

re: #156 Nevergiveup

They should have struck before Bush left the White House. One day we may find out why they did not. I hope that decision was not fatal.

One word: Olmert.

177 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:36:28am

re: #169 Curtain of Oz

This bastid wakes up now. For 20 years he has been crapping on Israel. How many times did I get blessed with listening to this apologist get interviewed on NPR. He helped sow the seeds of Israel hatred and now he is dismayed at the outcome?

BTW - this is my first post on LGFs. Hello friends.


Welcome Oz..

178 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:42:16am
179 Gang of One  Tue, May 5, 2009 11:49:33am

re: #158 JohnAdams

Israel is the canary in the coal mine for the West world.

FTFY

180 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:01:57pm
181 Rexatosis  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:02:34pm

POTUS better come to grips with the reality of the Islamic/Palestinian hatred of both Jews and Christians (see what has been happening to the Christian communities in Palestinian controlled areas of the West Bank). This is not going to end well if the West continues to be weak.

182 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:04:51pm
183 debutaunt  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:05:35pm

re: #99 albusteve

can permanent laryngitis be induced somehow?....

Mouth plug.

184 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:06:41pm

re: #180 Iron Fist

I disagree.

If Israel is attacked with nuclear, chemical or biological weapons, there will be a massive annihilating retaliation. Against any and all possible aggressors. This is called the Samson Option.

185 Land Shark  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:07:16pm

re: #159 Promethea

The reality is that Israel treats the Palestinians far better than their own thugs masquarading as a "goverment" do. Can you imagine how much better off the Palestinian people would be if Arafat and his fellow thugs had worked for their people instead of stealing all the aid money the witless idiots in the West sent them?

186 J.S.  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:11:42pm

Well, then, perhaps Morris should have a little conversation with Shimon Peres...

187 Simply Me  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:33:54pm

re: #88 Kenneth

"Mutual assured destruction was the main deterrent preventing the use of nuclear weapons by the Soviets ... For Ahmadinejad and his group, with their apocalyptic mind-set, mutual assured destruction is not a deterrent but an inducement." – Bernard Lewis

I just had an awful thought. (I may get a lot of down dings for this.) What if it is like the two women fighting over the baby, and Solomon says the only solution is to split the baby in half?

It is like Solomon and the two women fighting over the baby because so many children on both sides will die. The way the story goes, the woman who really loved the child was willing to walk away, to preserve the baby's life. She would rather her baby live and was willing to let the other woman "win". BUT, in this current event, neither side is willing to "walk away" and both sides seem to be willing to let their children die if the only other choice is to walk away.

188 solomonpanting  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:38:31pm

re: #187 Simply Me

BUT, in this current event, neither side is willing to "walk away" and both sides seem to be willing to let their children die if the only other choice is to walk away.

What would Israel's course of action look like if it decided to "walk away?" Where would it go? What would/should it do? There is only one party here with the option of "walking away" and that is Iran.

189 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:42:25pm

re: #187 Simply Me

Umm... that was already tried.

In 1947, the UN partitioned the land and gave half to the Jews to form Israel and half to the Arabs to form Palestine.

The Israelis said, "Well, it's less than we want, but it's better than nothing, so we'll take it."

The Arabs said, "No way, we want it all! Screw the UN, were going to kill all the Jews and take all the land."

Guess what, that Arabs lost that war, and every war since. Israel is here to stay. The Arabs already have 22 countries. They don't need another one where Israel is. It couldn't have been very important to them anyway, as they never thought to create a "Palestine" in 1310 years.

190 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:45:05pm

re: #187 Simply Me

...both sides seem to be willing to let their children die if the only other choice is to walk away.

In fact, it's the Arabs who are arming their children with bomb vest and sacrificing them while trying to kill Israeli civilians, including children. Israelis are defending their children from their genocidal enemies.

Get a clue, jerk.

191 Mike LaSalle  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:45:40pm
“Iran is building atomic weapons at least in part — maybe in large part — because it intends to use them. The people there are religious fanatics,”

Charles - is this why you hate religion? "It's the fanatics, stupid!"

Dood, listen: fanatics are fanatics. Religion is the excuse for their behavior -- not the cause.

Anyway, humans are bred for religious belief. The imposition of an atheist belief system simply won't work (notwithstanding your hair piece). And even if you did get the vast majority of human beings to renounce religion, you would only create a Secular Inquisition to replace it. Government or academia or some other human institution would become the new Church.

The old Law of Unintended Consequences keeps showing up like whack-a-mole. You just can't beat city hall.

Cheers

192 Sharmuta  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:46:52pm

re: #191 Mike LaSalle

You are a complete ass.

193 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:48:48pm

re: #192 Sharmuta

You are a complete ass.

Not quite a complete ass. At least an ass has a function.

194 curtain of oz  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:55:39pm

Kenneth, Agree with you. However, I also studied under Martin Van Crevald (quoted in your link). The Sampson option is a sideshow in the Iranian context. If triggered, all is lost anyhow. Deterrance is not enough in Israel's case - plus throw in the fact that its enemies don't care about MAD.

195 Simply Me  Tue, May 5, 2009 12:58:46pm

re: #188 solomonpanting

What would Israel's course of action look like if it decided to "walk away?" Where would it go? What would/should it do? There is only one party here with the option of "walking away" and that is Iran.

I have seen that there is a large percent (over 50% and I think it was closer to 75%) of the Palestinians who would be amenable to relocation to other countries if it included a house and job. It was an opinion research poll done in about the last seven years.

Conversely, are their nations that would help the Israelis develop an exit strategy from the Middle East? I would think there would need to be some sort of buyouts of all the beautiful developed areas and citizenship in those countries for the Israelis.

196 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:00:57pm

re: #194 curtain of oz

I'm not so sure "all is lost". An Iranian missile attack would be vulnerable to interception by Israel's missile defense system. Israel would have to retaliate anyway. Personally, I don't think Israel should sit and wait for it, though.

197 solomonpanting  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:01:47pm

re: #195 Simply Me

Your comment is a bit ambiguous. Are you saying that Palestinians and Israelis should vacate?

198 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:01:49pm

re: #191 Mike LaSalle

I could smell this idiot's meltdown coming from a mile away.

Bye now! Take care.

199 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:02:54pm

re: #195 Simply Me

Why should Israel leave? It's their country. The Arabs should leave. Any buyout would be cheaper, as they never built anything of value there.

200 Spiritualized  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:12:29pm

re: #16 jaunte

Is there any constituency in favor of this plan other than Benny Morris?

John Bolton - The Three-State Option

201 Simply Me  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:15:00pm

I found the poll of the Palestinians. It was November 2004. See here.

8 Half of the population (50%) does not dismiss the possibility of relocating and residing permanently in some other country if they had the ability and sufficient resources to do so.
41% state they would not consider it.
Close to 20% (17%) explicitly declare that if they had the ability and resources, they would relocate and permanently reside in some other country.

9. When answering the general question “What would induce you to relocate in order to emigrate permanently to another country?”, only 15% answered that there is no such inducement. 71% specified a number of various factors that would so induce them, among them: a guarantee of employment abroad (16%), significant financial aid (19%), a guarantee of good housing and good education (14%) etc.

202 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:23:16pm

Liberal Jews are ridiculous, and in my view, their naivity (I prefer to call it stupidity) will only lead to a bunch of dead Jews.

If Israel were split in half, with one side being liberal Jews and the other side being non-liberal, normal Jews, then I know who I would bet my money on, in terms of which group would survive the enemies that surround them on all sides, and basically enemies all over the world that fantasize about Israel disappearing from the map. Let the liberal side make so-called bogus peace agreements with people and groups who have proven time and time again that they have no intention of keeping such agreements and let the liberal side repeatedly give up land to people and groups who will use it launch attacks. We'll see how that works out for them.

American liberal Jews are no better than Israeli liberal Jews, the majority of American Jews voted for Obama.

203 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:25:24pm

re: #201 Simply Me

Note their answers to what would induce them: not the opportunity to build something, but only guarantees of employment, housing and financial aid.

204 Simply Me  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:26:25pm

re: #197 solomonpanting

Your comment is a bit ambiguous. Are you saying that Palestinians and Israelis should vacate?

The thought just got triggered in me reading Kenneth's #88, the Bernard Lewis quote. In my mind I could hear Sting singing "I hope the Russians love their children, too." And I knew that in this case, the Palestinians don't "love their children, too", at least in the way we understand love as wanting them to live. So, then I thought of the Solomon's wisdom story of the two women and the baby. And the woman who really loves the baby is willing to walk away so that the baby may live.

re: #190 Kenneth

In fact, it's the Arabs who are arming their children with bomb vest and sacrificing them while trying to kill Israeli civilians, including children. Israelis are defending their children from their genocidal enemies.

Get a clue, jerk.

I know they are willing to sacrifice their children. One of the two women in the Solomon story was willing to let the child be killed. That is why I thought of it.

205 Ben Hur  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:26:48pm

Rumpelstiltskinstein?

Rumpelstiltskinberg?

Rumpelstiltskinbaum?

Rumpelstiltskinowitz?

206 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:28:13pm

Before I've been on this blog a while, and sound utterly stupid. Can you guys let me know what a few terms mean: POTUS, Lizard? Any other slag I should know about?

207 funky chicken  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:28:14pm

re: #148 Dave the.....

So for kicks, I went to Huffington to see what they had to say about Murtha's nephew getting a no-bid contract to do $4M of little or no work. I was shocked when most commentators condemned Murtha. Even noting other Murtha family ethical problems.

Then I read a little deeper into the comments. Soon the conversation shifted to how this was really Bush's fault (seriously) and not a Democrat problem. Also how it's "only $4 million" and not worth worrying about.

Murtha should be Duke Cunningham's cell mate. They can have nice bipartisan chats about how much taxpayer money they stole.

208 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:28:53pm
209 funky chicken  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:32:07pm

re: #198 Charles

weird that this type can't read to the second word

religious fanatics
right-wing extremists

210 funky chicken  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:33:10pm

re: #206 Curtain of Oz

President Of The United States

POTUS

211 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:36:24pm

re: #208 Iron Fist

I remember Bigel!

Israel did what they wanted in Gaza. In response to small homemade rockets, that was enough. NBC war changes everything. If attacked with anything NBC, Israel would respond with massive nuclear retaliation. I have no doubt about that. They will not give a shiny f*ck for Obama's tender sensibilities.

212 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:39:17pm

re: #206 Curtain of Oz

Before I've been on this blog a while, and sound utterly stupid. Can you guys let me know what a few terms mean: POTUS, Lizard? Any other slag I should know about?

Yes.

Slag is a pejorative slang term, primarily used in United Kingdom, the Republic of Ireland and Australia, to describe women who often engage in casual sex and promiscuous behaviour. Its meaning is broadly similar to the terms "slut" and "skank". It originally derives from the same term for piles of impurities skimmed off during the smelting of metals.

213 BeckoningChasm  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:39:27pm

I'm glad to see the Israeli left is waking up. I wish I could say the same for the American left.

214 Simply Me  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:40:17pm

re: #208 Iron Fist


And now Obama is President. Bush might have very well gone to war for Israel (but it would have been a conventional war). Obama will not.

And the Iranians know that. They also know (or believe at any rate) that they can "win" a limited nuclear war with Israel if they can keep America as a non-beligerant observer. Obama is already reaching out to Iran to try and close some sort of agreement. He's already indicated (if not exactly baldly stated) that his Administration is willing to accept a nuclear armed Iran. In 100 days he has managed to allow one of our oldest, most implacable enemies to open a little light between us and Israel. A place to set the point of his chisel, if you follow. An opening of opportunity for Iran, and point of great peril for Israel and, ultimately, the United States. If we allow Iran to split us off from Israel (probably with assurances that Iran will stay out of Iraq and crack down on cross-border terrorist attacks) both nations suffer.

That doesn't seem to bother Obama at all.

So we talking about people who are willing to send their children in as suicide bombers and willing to engage in a nuclear war and I am getting down dinged for suggesting an exit strategy?

If this were happening to you on a local level, insane neighbors who wanted to destroy you and your children, wouldn't you move even though you had legal title to your house and had lived their longer than your neighbors, etc. ? Wouldn't you just get the best price you could on your house and get out of there?

Twenty years ago, a man who lived in South Africa and couldn't leave with his money, used the money to build a fabulous sailboat. Then he sailed the boat to the USA. He sold the boat in California to my friend.

215 DoubleTapper  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:41:29pm

I though Israel and al-Qaeda were already working together!

216 Captain Cool  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:42:13pm

These things have been obvious to common sense people since the 1930's. "Intellectuals" however are very slow.

217 Kenneth  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:48:29pm

re: #215 DoubleTapper

Welcome. Only your second post, but you should make an effort not to be misunderstood. I had to click through a few links to realize what you were quoting was the latest paranoid gossip on jihadi sites, not your personal opinion.

Interesting publication, btw.

218 samsgran1948  Tue, May 5, 2009 1:51:10pm

re: #37 Nevergiveup

If it works

If TOTUS allows it to work.

219 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:01:17pm

re: #212 Kenneth

I deserved that.

220 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:05:32pm

The author writes the following:

"The center-right has won every election since Barak was voted out of the prime minister's office in 2001. "

One can make the argument that the center-right has won every election since 1996. Barak formed the umbrella party "One Israel" with former Likudnik David Levy instead of running just as Labor's head. Barak's government included two significant center-right parties (Sharansky's "Yisrael B'Aliya" and the religious "Shas") who quit the government the moment he left for Camp David.

221 anotherindyfilmguy  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:35:06pm

re: #60 baier

Maybe Obama can throw a BBQ and get everyone be friends.
The US needs to get off Israel's back and watch it instead.

The O' would throw a pork BBQ and then wonder why both sides look at him funny...

As for the left waking up: if enough rocks are thrown at even the densest person eventually they'll get the idea someone doesn't like them... eventually...

222 TedStriker  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:37:04pm

re: #191 Mike LaSalle

So long, dipshit...hope you love the taste of that curb you just ate.

223 [deleted]  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:39:59pm
224 anotherindyfilmguy  Tue, May 5, 2009 2:51:40pm

re: #214 Simply Me

Conflict resolution with crazies does not automatically mean consent to their craziness and run away. Sometimes it has to mean put the smack down and teach them to not be so crazy.

Giving the crazies what they want only emboldens them in their craziness and makes life harder for everyone else in the hypothetical neighborhood you're proposing...

Taken to the extreme where would the Jewish population of Israel move to?
Why should they move from what is rightly theirs?
How long would it take before the crazies followed them to destroy them?

225 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 5, 2009 3:01:14pm

re: #224 anotherindyfilmguy

How long would it take before the crazies followed them to destroy them?

The Jews in Israel are obviously not going anyplace, but just to entertain that absurd idea - if all of the Jews did pack up and leave, and let's say that the Palestinians and others were to move in, it wouldn't be long until that place would become a cesspool of barbarism and it would take them a mere few years to destroy what Israel has built up. Look at what they did to Gaza, destroying greenhouses given to them and basically acting like self destructive idiots.

If the Jews were to set up a colony in Antarctica, and made it prosper, it wouldn't be long before some desert dwelling Jew haters were to show up and demand that the Jews leave because there's a chunk of ice that has ties to Mohammed, and besides Jews are afterall the children of pigs of apes.

226 tobariv  Tue, May 5, 2009 3:54:30pm

The problem is that this appeasement for "peace" , the 2 state solution has now gained popularity and legitimacy when it was never possible. To quote Golda Meir "They want us dead , we want to live, where's the compromise?"

227 tsionguy  Tue, May 5, 2009 5:45:20pm

We have all seen, time and again, that "land for peace" doesn't work. So let's adopt a new slogan: "peace for land." If they give us peace they will get some land. If they break the peace, they will lose some land. I have full faith in the Palestinian people, but it will take time, and a consistent firm hand. After all, the Ottoman Empire maintained control over this region for 400 years. (Of course these days the Turks wouldn't touch it with a 10 foot pole!)

228 tats66  Tue, May 5, 2009 6:32:55pm

What scares the hell outta me is that the fear of retaliation just doesn't cut it here, how can it when the scumbags actually believe death will bring them improvement, unlike communist atheists in the cold war, and I am questioning Israel's ability to respond if nuked, it seems like the entire country cld be wiped out in one strike...

Compound this with the unsettling fact (IMO) that the US is led by a man not exactly "pro Israel" but who I actually question if he likes the US much better.......

phew just typed what I was thinking at the moment........sorry :)

229 Jimmah  Tue, May 5, 2009 7:19:39pm

re: #198 Charles

I could smell this idiot's meltdown coming from a mile away.

Bye now! Take care.

This one came pre-melted. For those unfamiliar with how much of a kook this guy is, here's a taste of Mike LaSalle's idea (from his website) of what sound science looks like:

Image: opt-tipler.gif

230 Frank N Stein  Tue, May 5, 2009 7:34:40pm

re: #187 Simply Me

BUT, in this current event, neither side is willing to "walk away" and both sides seem to be willing to let their children die if the only other choice is to walk away.

What do you mean by walking away? The Israelis drowning themselves and their children in the sea to appease the Palestinians who won't accept a two state solution? Why don't you just walk away with your entire people from your country?

231 yochanan  Tue, May 5, 2009 7:51:36pm

re: #218 samsgran1948

232 Frank N Stein  Tue, May 5, 2009 8:39:32pm

re: #220 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

The author writes the following:

"The center-right has won every election since Barak was voted out of the prime minister's office in 2001. "

One can make the argument that the center-right has won every election since 1996. Barak formed the umbrella party "One Israel" with former Likudnik David Levy instead of running just as Labor's head. Barak's government included two significant center-right parties (Sharansky's "Yisrael B'Aliya" and the religious "Shas") who quit the government the moment he left for Camp David.

One Israel was considered center-left since its main component was the Labor Party. David Levy left the Likud and his party was centrist. The ultra-orthodox Shas party are no leftists, but they supported land concessions for peace since their spiritual leader, rabbi Ovadia Yossef, ruled that the sanctity of life is greater than the sanctity of the land and thus it's permitted to give away parts of the land of Israel for peace, so they initially supported the Oslo process. Of course, as said, Shas are no leftists, so they understood pretty early on with all the terror that followed that the Arafat gang don't mean peace, but just duped Israel. They also objected to giving them half of Jerusalem.

In general the Israelis tended to vote for centrist parties. That started shifting recently after Grad missiles hit Ashdod and Ashkelon, just like Netanyahu predicted will happen if Israel will unilaterally withdraw from Gaze. Likud is center-right, but with the fulfillment of the worst case scenario for Gaza some of the voters found the Likud insufficient to deal with it and turned to the more far right Yisrael Beitinu. In one of the cities hit by Grad missiles Yisrael Beitinu came first in a poll taken before the elections.

Western media in general (and thus the Western public) are unable to read Israeli politics and voting trends because they completely dismiss the rocket and missile attacks as harmless toys causing a bit of a noisy nuisance and Israel intentionally killing civilians just because this little noisy nuisance disturb their afternoon siestas.

233 eddie- the Aggravator  Tue, May 5, 2009 10:59:09pm

Peace (in the Middle-East) may not be all it's cut out to be.

Check this story in "The Irish Times":

[Link: www.irishtimes.com...]

Oh, I forgot. Muslims don't touch alcohol.

234 PayBackTime  Fri, May 8, 2009 12:09:31am

The "M" in M.A.D. might stand for something other than Mutual.


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