Steele Promises ‘New Ideas’

Politics • Views: 2,646

Andrew Malcolm has the full text of GOP chairman Michael Steele’s speech today: RNC Chairman Michael Steele tries to re-rally the GOP.

A point that Steele made: “The Republican Party is again going to emerge as the party of new ideas.”

The key phrase, though, seems to be that the GOP is going to emerge with new ideas — sometime in the future. Because I’ve read the speech twice and I don’t see any of those new ideas there.

It would be nice if “intelligent design” creationism isn’t among these sparkly new concepts. But unfortunately, the party’s rising stars — Bobby Jindal, Tim Pawlenty, Mark Sanford, etc. — all subscribe to the Discovery Institute’s talking points.

Meanwhile, time’s running out to show up with these new ideas, judging from the latest Gallup poll: GOP Losses Span Nearly All Demographic Groups.

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641 comments
1 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:32:23pm

the old ideas worked just fine...the GOP is full of new ideas now...he has it exactly backwards

2 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:32:29pm

Hurray! Another epic fail for the only party not actively promoting a socialist cult of personality!

3 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:32:41pm

Or maybe some old ideas that work could come back in fashion.

Like fiscal responsibility and individual rights.

Just a thought.

4 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:33:01pm

I got an idea, behave like conservatives and stop acting like Democrats.

5 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:33:37pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Or maybe some old ideas that work could come back in fashion.

Like fiscal responsibility and individual rights.

Just a thought.

Those are no fun, and we Modern Americans need our fun like a junky needs junk.

6 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:33:38pm

Here is a new idea -

Actually follow up on 25 years of promises to shrink the size and role of the federal government in our lives.

7 screaming_eagle  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:33:51pm

We'll see Mr. Steele. Republicans have a year and a half before the next election. Prove it to me before I listen anymore.

8 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:34:02pm

what's new about "getting back to our roots"....another failed PR stunt

9 Altermite  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:34:22pm

The GOP made a mistake when they moved for the south via the social conservatism and nabbing the dixiecrats from the dems. That demographic has been shrinking for a while now, and its starting to show.

10 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:34:52pm

Here's an idea. GOPers should read The Conscience of a Conservative.

11 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:35:37pm

show me the beef...I can read empty words just fine

12 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:35:44pm

Another new idea -

Keep church out of government.

Keep government out of church.

13 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:35:59pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

Here's an idea. GOPers should read The Conscience of a Conservative.

Anything would work; really, anything at all, at this point. We're fast slipping into a self-imposed rule of unreason on all fronts.

14 Mithrax  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:36:11pm

Here's a few:

Smaller Government.

Less Taxes.

15 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:37:54pm

The howler of the day, from Steele's speech:

This change comes in a tea bag!

Bwa!

16 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:38:01pm

re: #13 Guanxi88

Anything would work; really, anything at all, at this point. We're fast slipping into a self-imposed rule of unreason on all fronts.

NO! "Anything" won't work. Too many kooks out there. Stick with Barry. Maybe some Thomas Sowell.

18 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:38:38pm

SO, here's the choices at present:

1) A neo-Marxist personality cult, promoting socialist redistribution at home, and outright backstabbing and incompetence abroad;

2) A stealth theologio-political movement in bed with corporate and other interests, promoting insanity at home and nothing at all abroad;

3) Luap Nor's bastard children, who've gone off their meds and into the voting booth.

19 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:39:16pm

It seems the party has fractured into so many pieces and subgroups, each with its own "agenda" - perhaps the problem is that there's an overabundance of "new" ideas.

20 Altermite  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:39:31pm

re: #17 freedomplow

GOP Losses Span Nearly All Demographic Groups BUT Now Tied With Dems In Party Identification.

What gives?

Most of the people who have been dropping out of the GOP have been going independent- think fiscal conservatives and such who honestly couldn't join the democrats but no longer feel welcome in what was once their party.

21 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:39:34pm

re: #16 Sharmuta

NO! "Anything" won't work. Too many kooks out there. Stick with Barry. Maybe some Thomas Sowell.

Hell, I'd start them out on something easier to take. If you send them straight to the hard truths, they might recoil in terror at what they've become.

22 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:39:44pm

moderate old time conservatism is almost dead imo...not enough people think for themselves...the onslaught of the revisionist, lying donks and the MSM is too great...

23 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:39:54pm
24 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:40:43pm

He used "truth to power" 3 times.

God I hate that phrase.

To me that phrase is inextricably linked with red diaper doper babies.

25 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:40:48pm

I linked this in the spinoffs this morning, but I'll share it again:

But what are conservative ideals? In the struggle for the heart and soul of the GOP, it would be instructive for all Republicans to look for answers in the teachings of the godfather of the conservative movement, the late Barry M. Goldwater, senator from Arizona and Republican standard bearer in the 1964 presidential election.

For many of us who years ago devoured Goldwater's writings, the conservative movement of today bears little resemblance to the one he envisioned.

Today's "conservatives" thought they were doing God's will in trying to keep Terri Schiavo hooked up to a feeding tube. The crusty Arizonan in all likelihood would have declared the Schiavo debacle to be an outrageous interference of government in a family affair best handled by the courts, not the Legislature, and certainly not the Congress.

Goldwater believed in the dignity of individuals, regardless of race, creed or color. He would have been appalled by the nativist, anti-immigration sentiments that infect so many of today's so-called "conservatives."

A Jeffersonian at heart, Goldwater believed in the separation of church and state, and the right of every person to worship as he or she pleased, or not to worship at all. I suspect Goldwater would have railed against "conservative" Republicans who seek to impose their religious beliefs in public school science classes by requiring biblically-based "creationism" to be taught alongside evolution.

Goldwater was a state's rights advocate. I'm not sure whether he would favor or oppose gay marriage, but he no doubt would view it as a state's rights issue, as did John McCain, and not the federal issue many of today's "conservatives" seek to make it.

Yes, the GOP needs to return to conservative ideals if it is to regain its former glory. To rediscover those ideals, Republicans need to go back to the source.

26 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:40:56pm

Second verse...same as the first.

Youtube Video
27 AFVetWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:41:29pm

re: #10 Sharmuta
They should also read Mark Levin's book, Liberty vs. Tyranny. That really tells the story.

28 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:41:42pm

re: #21 Guanxi88

Hell, I'd start them out on something easier to take. If you send them straight to the hard truths, they might recoil in terror at what they've become.

It's pretty slender reading. Not real difficult, and frankly- at this point tough love might be what's called for.

29 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:41:54pm

re: #27 AFVetWife

Not interested.

30 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:43:36pm

Here is a question for the SoCons who are so eager to expel RINOs -

What power is it that government has that God lacks such that God needs to be part of government?

31 carefulnow  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:43:50pm

re: #20 Altermite

And young people who say a pox on both your houses.

32 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:43:56pm

"By maintaining the separation of church and state," he explained, "the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars . . . Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?"

-Barry Goldwater

33 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:44:25pm

re: #23 buzzsawmonkey

Nu? Ideas?

Reminds me of the joke about the steady customer at the diner:

Guy comes in to the same diner, every day at the same time. Always orders the chicken soup; doesn't even have to say it - the servers all know that's all he ever gets.

Anyway, one day, he sits down, and they set the soup before him. He pushes it away and waves to the server, who comes over.

"I can't eat this," he says.

"Whaddaya mean? You've eaten nothing but this every day for the past 10 years. You don't even have to order, we know you always have the soup."

"True," the customer says, "but I can't eat this."

"And why not? It's been perfectly good enough for you for years now. Why the change? Why now?"

The customer shrugs, "There's no spoon."

That's the modern conservative's problem; we want to have the same soup, same as always, but there's no damned spoon.

34 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:44:49pm

"I am a conservative Republican, but I believe in democracy and the separation of church and state. The conservative movement is founded on the simple tenet that people have the right to live life as they please as long as they don't hurt anyone else in the process."

-Barry Goldwater

35 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:45:25pm

re: #24 jcm

He used "truth to power" 3 times.

God I hate that phrase.

To me that phrase is inextricably linked with red diaper doper babies.

THANK YOU! That phrase makes me want to kill people. Followed closely by "raising awareness," as if that is magically going to solve the problem under discussion.

36 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:46:21pm

"When you say 'radical right' today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."

-Barry Goldwater

*Blowing goodbye kiss in the general direction of politics*

37 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:46:51pm

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

38 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:47:02pm

re: #24 jcm

He used "truth to power" 3 times.

God I hate that phrase.

To me that phrase is inextricably linked with red diaper doper babies.

I hate it too, sick of hearing it.

Besides, I can't quite figure out what it's supposed to mean.

39 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:47:04pm

"Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength."

-Barry Goldwater

40 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:47:15pm

re: #15 Charles

The howler of the day, from Steele's speech:

Bwa!

With a blumkin too?

41 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:47:31pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

But is he going to pray for you?

42 researchok  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:47:48pm

New political party, anyone?

The GOP is imploding.

43 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:48:38pm

re: #42 researchok

New political party, anyone?

The GOP is imploding.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

44 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:48:43pm

re: #19 reine.de.tout

It seems the party has fractured into so many pieces and subgroups, each with its own "agenda" - perhaps the problem is that there's an overabundance of "new" ideas.

And a leadership void.

45 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:48:44pm

low taxes, small government, no to socialism, keep it simple

46 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:49:36pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

More of that diarrhea?
He's speaking "trot" to power.

47 researchok  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:49:45pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

It isn't as if the creationists don't have to work all that hard at debunking the 'missing link'.

It isn't as if they are bound by logic or science.

48 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:49:56pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

It's mind-boggling to me that Tas Walker and people like him are so arrogant in their apparent belief that they've been appointed by God to make judgments as to who is or is not going to suffer hellfire.

49 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:50:16pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

And a leadership void.

it's an ignorant electorate...a massive problem....they will not be educated but they allow themselves to be deceived...

50 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:50:17pm

re: #45 pegcity

low taxes, small government, no to socialism, keep it simple

You might as well promote the wearing of spats and celluloid collars; our intellectual fashions have left liberty and responsibility far in the past.

51 researchok  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:50:38pm

take out that 'don't'.

52 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:51:16pm
53 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:51:42pm

re: #44 Spare O'Lake

And a leadership void.

Yes, exactly, you finished my thought.
A complete void in leadership.

But with all the different little factions, each wanting its own piece of the pie, I'm wondering if there is one person who has what it takes to pull it all together.

54 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:51:43pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

You might as well promote the wearing of spats and celluloid collars; our intellectual fashions have left liberty and responsibility far in the past.

yup....

gone like my last paycheck...
gone gone away

55 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:51:58pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

Hellfire! The most awesome weapon in the creationists arsenal!

You must have some pretty spiffy asbestos undies not to be shaking in fear!

;-)

56 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:52:06pm

re: #52 buzzsawmonkey

Having worn both in my time, I can recommend them highly.

Look, I'm wearing them now, spiritually, but these refinements are lost on your modern savage.

57 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:52:14pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

"By maintaining the separation of church and state," he explained, "the United States has avoided the intolerance which has so divided the rest of the world with religious wars . . . Can any of us refute the wisdom of Madison and the other framers? Can anyone look at the carnage in Iran, the bloodshed in Northem Ireland, or the bombs bursting in Lebanon and yet question the dangers of injecting religious issues into the affairs of state?"

-Barry Goldwater

I like that. It's going on my Facebook profile.

58 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:52:24pm

re: #45 pegcity

low taxes, small government, no to socialism, keep it simple

I agree. Keep it simple, and ditch the "holier than thou" routine.
-No more blind spending.
-Bring down the debt.
-We can save the economy without going down the hideous road to socialism.

59 doppelganglander  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:53:14pm

re: #52 buzzsawmonkey

Having worn both in my time, I can recommend them highly.

How old are you?

60 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:53:21pm

re: #55 jcm

Hellfire! The most awesome weapon in the creationists arsenal!

You must have some pretty spiffy asbestos undies not to be shaking in fear!

;-)

Asbestos undies!
LOL.
Love it.

61 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:53:46pm

re: #55 jcm

You must have some pretty spiffy asbestos undies not to be shaking in fear!

;-)

Itchy, though.

62 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:53:53pm

re: #36 Sharmuta

"When you say 'radical right' today, I think of these moneymaking ventures by fellows like Pat Robertson and others who are trying to take the Republican Party and make a religious organization out of it. If that ever happens, kiss politics goodbye."

-Barry Goldwater

*Blowing goodbye kiss in the general direction of politics*

there aren't enough updings in the world.

63 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:54:09pm
64 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:54:14pm

re: #50 Guanxi88

You might as well promote the wearing of spats and celluloid collars; our intellectual fashions have left liberty and responsibility far in the past.

I don't know whether to up ding or down ding you.
You're right on... ding +
I hate that it's happening ding - n.

Shouldn't shoot the messenger. Remember, don't shoot the messenger.

65 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:54:28pm

re: #48 reine.de.tout

It's mind-boggling to me that Tas Walker and people like him are so arrogant in their apparent belief that they've been appointed by God to make judgments as to who is or is not going to suffer hellfire.

A few days ago, when I posted the Roger Simon bit about Ahmadinejad making him a believer, Tas Walker emailed this to me:

The key is to seek after God. "You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart." Jer 29:13

Charles, you seem to be trying to run away from God. How futile is that? And how unnecessary.

The arrogance of these people just takes your breath away.

66 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:55:03pm

Someone with the enormous influence of a Reagan will have to come in and cram the leadership's face into the Contract with America, and the GOP's subsequent behavior.

The leadership doesn't WANT to get it. It's been laying in the public trough too long. Their failure to honor the Contract proved that.

Housecleaning time, and it must be metaphorically "bloody".

67 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:55:12pm

re: #57 doppelganglander

Barry's the MAN.

68 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:55:30pm

re: #43 Guanxi88

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Really? I thought Kang was the better candidate, but vote Quimby.

69 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:55:41pm

re: #64 jcm

I don't know whether to up ding or down ding you.
You're right on... ding +
I hate that it's happening ding - n.

Shouldn't shoot the messenger. Remember, don't shoot the messenger.

Eh, half the time I'm blind with rage and despair, half the time I'm resigned to it, and half the time I'm determined to fight against it. I think we're all there.

70 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:56:08pm
This change comes in a tea bag!


...and that's not a good thing.

71 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:56:09pm

re: #68 coquimbojoe

Really? I thought Kang was the better candidate, but vote Quimby.

He really IS the lesser of two evils.

72 Altermite  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:56:52pm

re: #69 Guanxi88

Eh, half the time I'm blind with rage and despair, half the time I'm resigned to it, and half the time I'm determined to fight against it. I think we're all there.

Thats a lot of halves. No wonder you're confused and upset.
/

73 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:57:07pm
74 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:57:09pm

re: #72 Altermite

Thats a lot of halves. No wonder you're confused and upset.
/

So you see my problem, then.

75 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:57:40pm

re: #73 buzzsawmonkey

If I owned rental property, I would name it "Two Evils," just so I could legitimately claim to be the lessor of Two Evils.

A real estate pun in a politics of despair thread. Nice.

76 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:57:44pm

I don't care so much for new ideas as I do for good ideas.

77 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:57:48pm

re: #72 Altermite

Thats a lot of halves. No wonder you're confused and upset.
/

He's beside himself.

78 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:58:02pm

Good grief. The idiots at the Discovery Institute are reacting to the "Ida" announcement like high school kids slamming their enemies in a yearbook:

Evolution News & Views: Lemur Monkey Falls From the Sky, Robbing Man of Sleep.

The stupid! It burns!

79 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:58:08pm

re: #65 Charles

The arrogance of these people just takes your breath away.

Will we see sawdust spread on the aisles at the next GOP convention?
Will it be held in a tent?

/only a metaphorical sarc in those questions

80 sbvft contributor  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:58:39pm

Mark Steyn: "But, when the going gets tough, you don't, as Gen. Powell advises, "move toward the center." You move the center toward you, as Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher did."

81 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:58:46pm
82 lawhawk  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:59:07pm

New ideas.... some of the old ones work just fine - namely fiscal responsibility, which is all but out of existence and ignored by both parties. Fiscal responsibility would have made the federal budget mess far less dire. It could have prevented the problems seen in places like California, New York, and New Jersey.

But that's the past. The future is still a need to be fiscally responsible. If the GOP wants to remake itself, there's the starting point. Demand no new taxes and fees and to start rolling back out of control government spending.

83 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:59:21pm

re: #37 Charles

Meanwhile, Tas Walker, the Answers in Genesis moron who sends me email threatening me with hellfire, is all hot and bothered over the "missing link" announcement today. The creationist community is spinning for all they're worth, trying to discredit this one. He sent me links to two completely insane articles at creationist websites about it...

Why can't these people get it through their heads that nothing in evolutionary theory says we descended from monkeys? Why is it that they can't wrap their brains that at some distant point in the past we had common ancestors with chimps (when we weren't chimps *or* humans), with birds (when we weren't humans or birds), &c. Right back to the formation of life on Earth.

84 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:59:28pm

The graph of the GOP loses is pretty amazing. big loses in the midwest and among the poor, middle class and huge loses from college grads.

85 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:59:39pm

re: #78 Charles

Im going to go watch the Flintstones and do some research.

86 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 5:59:41pm

the GOP should not need any superstar leaders....we should not have to have some Pied Piper to call the droolers...the conservative ideology and lifestyle should speak for itself...it is just as much an everyday fundamental way of life as a political statement....millions of people that don't vote might even agree...there is no quick fix via a shiny cool pol, there is no amen corner to flock to...there is honesty and principle and if that cannot carry the GOP then it's doomed...I could care less about the talking heads serving up new ideas...there aren't any...I'm not so sharp but neither am I so ignorant that some body will come along and swap voters...they will do it on their own or not at all....idols are for the fucking liberal donks

87 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:00:03pm

re: #65 Charles

The arrogance of these people just takes your breath away.

I'm at a loss for words...
I count my lucky stars nobody emails me quotes out of the Bible and how I'm going to hell..Sick
/I'd track em down and kick their ass....I'm sure there is at least one verse in the Bible to cover my butt for that..
//Not advocating violence..just a joke...

88 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:00:25pm

re: #78 Charles

Good grief. The idiots at the Discovery Institute are reacting to the "Ida" announcement like high school kids slamming their enemies in a yearbook:

Evolution News & Views: Lemur Monkey Falls From the Sky, Robbing Man of Sleep.

The stupid! It burns!

One's God must be very weak when science and the search for truth threatens him/her/it.

89 pegcity  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:00:49pm

re: #80 sbvft contributor

Mark Steyn: "But, when the going gets tough, you don't, as Gen. Powell advises, "move toward the center." You move the center toward you, as Ronald Reagan and Margaret Thatcher did."

but what's the center now, the American center is becoming more like the canadian one, far left but not as far left as the other party.

90 coquimbojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:01:34pm

re: #85 pegcity

Im going to go watch the Flintstones and do some research.

I was gonna watch Barbarella...

91 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:01:45pm

There are times when I look at the madness and I say:

Let it come down! Faster, bring the whole edifice of stupidity to its logical conclusion as soon as possible, anything just to bring on the inevitable ("gods of the copybook headings") and painful conclusion and get it over with already.

92 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:02:02pm

re: #87 HoosierHoops

I'm at a loss for words...
I count my lucky stars nobody emails me quotes out of the Bible and how I'm going to hell..Sick
/I'd track em down and kick their ass....I'm sure there is at least one verse in the Bible to cover my butt for that..
//Not advocating violence..just a joke...

Standby.....

Okay, you're signed up for the listserve, burninhell@pitofhell.com.

/ ;-P

93 cronus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:02:39pm

Steele promises "new ideas"...

Eric Cantor and friends start a national listening tour...

You know instead, we could just start throwing a few specific thoughts out there now on health care, entitlement reform, etc. I was under the impression that conservative policy analysts have been thinking on these issues for decades. Certainly we have something of substance to add on the issues Dems plan to legislate on in the next couple months.

Just sayin'

94 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:02:55pm

Which came first?
Evolution of consciousness and then species, or evolution of species and then consciousness?

95 enoughalready  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:03:39pm

If the track record wasn't so abysmal I would suggest a War on Stupidity. It would of course fail miserably. But still. The possibilities.

96 cronus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:03:48pm

re: #78 Charles

Good grief. The idiots at the Discovery Institute are reacting to the "Ida" announcement like high school kids slamming their enemies in a yearbook:

Evolution News & Views: Lemur Monkey Falls From the Sky, Robbing Man of Sleep.

The stupid! It burns!

It's actual science, of course they're dismissive.

97 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:03:50pm

re: #94 Capitalist Tool

Which came first?
Evolution of consciousness and then species, or evolution of species and then consciousness?

Who are you asking, because there are at least two answers to that one.

98 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:03:51pm

re: #83 austin_blue

Why can't these people get it through their heads that nothing in evolutionary theory says we descended from monkeys?

Because they're completely locked into a literal interpretation of the Bible, and conditioned by a lifetime of brainwashing to attack anyone who suggests that the book of Genesis might be an allegory instead of a documentary. Willful ignorance is a powerful force in human beings, and the hardcore creationists have been indoctrinated from a very early age to forcefully reject anything that challenges that ignorance.

99 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:04:13pm

I'm sick to death of God and politics....sick of it...I'm tired of the whole fucking thing...the GOP has lost me for good I suspect...M Steele turns me off bigtime with his phony pep talk

100 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:05:15pm

re: #97 Guanxi88

Who are you asking, because there are at least two answers to that one.

You are free to elaborate...

101 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:05:40pm

re: #81 Iron Fist

Or to sum it up shortly- fiscal responsibility and individual rights.

If those two ideals are our foundation, the remainder of the ideology flows from there. If you have individual rights- you have gun rights to protect yourself and your property. And a host of other rights.

I think it's also important in the context of islamization that promoting individual rights will help muslim women in this country to know they have their own rights. They have freedoms here they lack everywhere else in the world- and they can exercise them.

102 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:05:41pm

re: #99 albusteve

I'm sick to death of God and politics....sick of it...I'm tired of the whole fucking thing...the GOP has lost me for good I suspect...M Steele turns me off bigtime with his phony pep talk

albusteve ... welcome to the club brother ... I am coming from the other side ... they all make me sick ...

103 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:05:46pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

I vaguely recall Barry Goldwater -- and how hated he was...pure fear and loathing... (and I always thought of him as a religious fanatic -- reading that quote is stunning...almost the exact opposite of what I'd expect...)

104 cronus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:05:53pm

re: #78 Charles

Good grief. The idiots at the Discovery Institute are reacting to the "Ida" announcement like high school kids slamming their enemies in a yearbook:

Evolution News & Views: Lemur Monkey Falls From the Sky, Robbing Man of Sleep.

The stupid! It burns!

/But wait, I thought ID had nothing to do with religion? The lead quote of this DI post seems to indicate otherwise:

If they weren't atheists, you'd think the scientists raising the ballyhoo over Ida were hailing the second coming.

105 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:06:02pm

re: #94 Capitalist Tool

Which came first?
Evolution of consciousness and then species, or evolution of species and then consciousness?

On this earth? Species. That's *not* to say that consciousness did not exist in the larger universe. But then you get into speculation about God, which to me is unknowable. I am a Deist, not a Theist.

106 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:06:26pm

re: #92 jcm

Standby.....

Okay, you're signed up for the listserve, burninhell@pitofhell.com.

/ ;-P

What gate? I paid for at least 8..Can I upgrade to 9?
Can I swap my AA frequent flyer miles? When you think about it..We should be able to cash in..No black out dates...

107 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:07:04pm

re: #104 cronus

But wait, I thought ID had nothing to do with religion? The lead quote of this DI post seems to indicate otherwise:

If they weren't atheists, you'd think the scientists raising the ballyhoo over Ida were hailing the second coming.

They do that all the time -- they just can't keep their stories straight.

Bottom line: they're very bad liars.

108 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:07:35pm

re: #103 J.S.

I vaguely recall Barry Goldwater -- and how hated he was...pure fear and loathing... (and I always thought of him as a religious fanatic -- reading that quote is stunning...almost the exact opposite of what I'd expect...)

Yes- they hated him because he didn't tolerate their bullying.

109 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:07:42pm

re: #105 austin_blue

On this earth? Species. That's *not* to say that consciousness did not exist in the larger universe. But then you get into speculation about God, which to me is unknowable. I am a Deist, not a Theist.

The mechanism of evolution is completely outside of species?

110 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:08:18pm

re: #101 Sharmuta

Three words.

LIFE
LIBERTY
PROPERTY

Fiscal responsibility of our elected servants respects all three.

111 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:08:44pm

re: #78 Charles

Good grief. The idiots at the Discovery Institute are reacting to the "Ida" announcement like high school kids slamming their enemies in a yearbook:

Evolution News & Views: Lemur Monkey Falls From the Sky, Robbing Man of Sleep.

The stupid! It burns!

That's the best they can do? This is from Robert L. Crowther who is the "Director of Communications for the Center for Science & Culture." It's childish but what do you expect from an organization that revolves around an idea that requires regressive thought patterns.

Something tells me that there's going to be a lot of drunken creationists for the next few days as they try to medicate the news of Ida. Adding to this was the fact that it was a headline at Drudge for a good part of the morning.

112 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:09:09pm

re: #103 J.S.

I vaguely recall Barry Goldwater -- and how hated he was...pure fear and loathing... (and I always thought of him as a religious fanatic -- reading that quote is stunning...almost the exact opposite of what I'd expect...)

pay close attention to what she posts

113 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:09:10pm

The GOP is possibly the only party responsible enough to figure out a way to sure up Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security. The idea is old: Privatize. (or partial privatization) But every time the GOP comes out with a plan, the Democrats ridicule it and then the R's run away with their tails between their legs. The R's need to put up a fight. Win or lose - FIGHT. The problem with today's GOP is that they don't articulate and fight and they are distracted and stuck on social and religious issues. Most social and religious issues are private matters that do not belong in the political arena.

The D's are in a position to drive this nation off an economic cliff, and while we all fly off, the R's are yelling about abortion and teaching ID in science class.

we're fucked.

114 sbvft contributor  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:09:28pm

The American consensus on political philosopy is like a pendulum. Give it time. It will swing back towards us. Sooner than you might think in fact, especially with the radical left agenda being implemented & the Keystone Cops cast of characters that make up the the most visible members of the Democrat party today. Most Americans don't give a damn about whether or not their politicians subscribe to creationism. They vote on other matters.

115 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:09:53pm

re: #100 Capitalist Tool

You are free to elaborate...

Well, if you're asking from a purely scientific basis, then it would appear that consciousness appeared following the development of the species. If you're asking from a theological perspective, then Consciousness formed the Whole, a part of which (Man) is itself a participant in consciousness.

The two understandings are not mutually exclusive, as both are true, but the reconciliation of these two can be a subtle and challenging task. Because truth does not contradict truth, and because we know the discoveries of science and reason to be true, to the extent that these appear to contradict revelation, it must be due to our failure to understand revelation properly. This is because whereas science and reason speak clearly and unambiguously, revelation and prophecy speak by way of image and metaphor. The great difficulty is in the hermeneutics of prophecy.

116 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:10:21pm

re: #102 JacksonTn

albusteve ... welcome to the club brother ... I am coming from the other side ... they all make me sick ...

the feds stress me out...fuck them...people are idiots and fuck them too

117 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:10:29pm

Opposable big toes might have been kinda neat...

118 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:10:33pm

re: #83 austin_blue

Why can't these people get it through their heads that nothing in evolutionary theory says we descended from monkeys? Why is it that they can't wrap their brains that at some distant point in the past we had common ancestors with chimps (when we weren't chimps *or* humans), with birds (when we weren't humans or birds), &c. Right back to the formation of life on Earth.

I'm not a scientist, nor do I have any great understanding of science, but here is something that I came across at some point in my life, that always fascinated me - look at how the embryos of various vertebrates are so incredibly similar esp in the very early stages. How can anyone see this sort of information and not realize that somewhere, wayyyyyy back, there was a common thread to all of these?

119 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:10:50pm

re: #109 Capitalist Tool

The mechanism of evolution is completely outside of species?

Environmental pressures are mechanisms of evolution, outside.

Variation with in a species that is more less advantageous to environmental pressures, inside.

120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:11pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

I hate it too, sick of hearing it.

Besides, I can't quite figure out what it's supposed to mean.

Thanks for saying that.

121 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:15pm

re: #113 FrogMarch

The problem with today's GOP is that they don't articulate and fight and they are distracted and stuck on social and religious issues. Most social and religious issues are private matters that do not belong in the political arena.

Exactly- and we fund these issues with tax payer money.

We don't need social solutions from the GOP- just fiscal responsibility.

122 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:16pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

I remember, though, that television ad -- the one with the little girl holding a daisy -- that Lyndon Johnson campaign advertisement...(Goldwater was gonna get the U.S. nuked...the mere thought of Goldwater caused all of us kids nightmares -- thinking in horror about a nuclear holocaust...)

123 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:37pm

re: #117 Capitalist Tool

Opposable big toes might have been kinda neat...

pick yer nose with yer foot?

124 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:45pm

re: #114 sbvft contributor

Most Americans don't give a damn about whether or not their politicians subscribe to creationism. They vote on other matters.

You're very wrong. Creationism hurts the GOP -- big time -- among the people they need the most: educated people with independent minds.

125 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:52pm

re: #117 Capitalist Tool

Opposable big toes might have been kinda neat...

Mine are kinda cool.

126 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:11:59pm

re: #120 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks for saying that.

So!
I'm not the only idiot?

127 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:12:00pm

re: #122 J.S.

I remember, though, that television ad -- the one with the little girl holding a daisy -- that Lyndon Johnson campaign advertisement...(Goldwater was gonna get the U.S. nuked...the mere thought of Goldwater caused all of us kids nightmares -- thinking in horror about a nuclear holocaust...)

How is that much different than political ads today?

128 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:12:36pm

re: #122 J.S.

I remember, though, that television ad -- the one with the little girl holding a daisy -- that Lyndon Johnson campaign advertisement...(Goldwater was gonna get the U.S. nuked...the mere thought of Goldwater caused all of us kids nightmares -- thinking in horror about a nuclear holocaust...)

Youtube Video
129 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:12:56pm

re: #127 Sharmuta

How is that much different than political ads today?

Better production values, a certain naive simplicity, and a lower budget.

130 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:13:06pm

The Trifid Nebula in Stars and Dust

131 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:13:32pm

And there was no way any republican, Goldwater or Rockefeller, would have defeated the ghost of Kennedy in 1964.

132 JHW  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:13:36pm

re: #108 Sharmuta

Remember that famous political ad LBJ's campaign ran of the little girl plucking petals off a daisy and the ominous countdown, implying Goldwater was a warmonger? It wasn't Goldwater that sent so many on that Southeast Asian excursion after all.

133 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:14:01pm

re: #109 Capitalist Tool

The mechanism of evolution is completely outside of species?

Of course not! Species are organisms successfully filling an ecological niche. As other niches open, species evolve to fill available space. The best example of explosive evolution in recent years is the Galapagos Finch clade, which quickly developed numerous beak types and body sizes, from a remarkably meager genetic stock, to fill niches that on the mainland were filled by everything from sparrows to mockingbirds to grosbeaks.

134 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:14:08pm

re: #127 Sharmuta

I don't think they have the same power anymore -- remember that Hillary Clinton ad about the 3 AM phone call? It was immediately mocked by SNL, etc. Nobody takes it seriously anymore...(maybe even a very real nuclear threat from Iran merits only a yawn..)

135 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:14:19pm

re: #124 Charles

You're very wrong. Creationism hurts the GOP -- big time -- among the people they need the most: educated people with independent minds.

It's even shown in the Gallup poll you link above. Largest demographic drop in GOP votes college graduates. Down 10 percent from an already low number.

From Gallup:

As was shown earlier, the GOP's loss in leaned support over this time is evident among nearly every subgroup. The losses are substantial among college graduates, which have shown a decline in GOP support of 10 points. (The losses are even greater -- 13 points -- among the subset of college graduates with postgraduate educations.) This may reflect in part Barack Obama's strong appeal to educated voters, a major component of his winning coalitions in both the Democratic primaries and the general election.

136 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:14:58pm
137 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:16:04pm

re: #115 Guanxi88

re: #105 austin_blue

I am asking about evolution of the consciousness of an individual species, not a larger concept of consciousness in general...
e. g. this or that bird species which developed a bill suitable for eating a particular seed... can the gradual change be explained solely by outside forces causing gradual/sudden mutation into new form, or is the new form driven by changed understanding within the precursor individuals?

138 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:08pm
139 Bloodnok  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:22pm

re: #134 J.S.

I don't think they have the same power anymore -- remember that Hillary Clinton ad about the 3 AM phone call? It was immediately mocked by SNL, etc. Nobody takes it seriously anymore...(maybe even a very real nuclear threat from Iran merits only a yawn..)

Mocked or not that terminology (3 AM phone call) has entered the lexicon. I believe it was extremely effective. Not enough to derail the Obama campaign, but it will be used to describe a candidate's decision making skills for the foreseeable future.

140 The Other Les  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:39pm

Quote of the Day:

"With great power comes great responsibility, and who wants that?"

-- Sam Starfall

Image: fc01733.png

141 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:42pm

re: #137 Capitalist Tool

re: #105 austin_blue

I am asking about evolution of the consciousness of an individual species, not a larger concept of consciousness in general...
e. g. this or that bird species which developed a bill suitable for eating a particular seed... can the gradual change be explained solely by outside forces causing gradual/sudden mutation into new form, or is the new form driven by changed understanding within the precursor individuals?

I don't think an individual member of a species could somehow direct the evolutionary process, but these things pass my understanding. I would say that the suggestion has a certain Lamarckian ring to it, but I confess my limited understanding.

142 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:43pm

A friend of mine and I were talking recently and we pondered if it isn't that conservatives (Goldwater styled) are the types who just want to be left alone, so we don't get involved. This leaves a void that gets filled by the exact wrong people.

143 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:45pm

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

144 Liberal Classic  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:17:54pm

re: #32 Sharmuta

I cherish a day when our children once again will restore as heroes the sort of men and women who - unafraid and undaunted - pursue the truth, strive to cure disease, subdue and make fruitful our natural environment and produce the inventive engines of production, science, and technology.

From Goldwater's 1964 party acceptance speech.

Source: [Link: www.washingtonpost.com...]

145 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:18:47pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing.

Yeah, truth always rears its ugly head at a bad time.

146 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:18:54pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

I'm not a scientist, nor do I have any great understanding of science, but here is something that I came across at some point in my life, that always fascinated me - look at how the embryos of various vertebrates are so incredibly similar esp in the very early stages. How can anyone see this sort of information and not realize that somewhere, wayyyyyy back, there was a common thread to all of these?

Sure. "Ontogeny recapitulates Phylogeny". That basically means that an embryo passes through the stages of its Common Ancestors or Concestors. Sponge, worm, fish (gills!), lizard, bird, dog (tail!), human. Life's rich pageant. It's glorious!

147 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:18:58pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

No matter what year it came out, there would have been a Charles Darwin birthday in it.

Can't see their point.

148 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:19:21pm

I need to settle down


[Link: www.imeem.com...]

149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:04pm

re: #126 reine.de.tout

Saying just never made sense to me.

150 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:05pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

It's sad to see people in any debate grasping at straws like that.

151 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:20pm

When I was a child..Someone said something I've never forgotten..
There have been more people killed in the name of God than for any other reasons put together..Religion has been damned by it's own actions..
very sad really...

152 cronus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:28pm

re: #135 Gus 802

I've seen a couple blogs trying to spin the drop in educated voters as a result of "leftist indoctrination" in college. No doubt some of that exists, but the larger truth is that when you are a political party that appears hostile to knowledge, voters that value knowledge are going to take offense.

153 Mike McDaniel  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:31pm

The ideas are out there. They've been there for decades. But the Republican leadership has too often betrayed their friends in order to curry favor with their enemies.

My own position? I want the Government's nose out of my business and its hand out of my pocket. I want the Federal Government to stop trying to do the jobs of state and local governments and do its job. Remember 9/11? I do...and the Dirty Little Secret is that if the Federal Government had stayed in its lane, they might have nipped the scheme in the bud.

As to the whole creationism debate, I really don't care. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my nose. I'm far more concerned about where a candidate stands on issues of strategy and foreign policy. Because if national security gets botched, several hundred thousand Americans will pay for it with their lives.

Beside that, all else is trivia.

154 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:59pm

No offence intended, but when I think "Creationist" I think televangelist hucksters a la Falwell, Swaggart, Baker et al, with a dash of ranting Islamism thrown in for good measure.

Yet the religious leaders themselves do not seem to be the ones vying for the leadership positions in the GOP. The "rising stars" are, instead, long-standing politicians on the make who cloak themselves with the mantle of their religious beliefs as a political strategy.

155 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:20:59pm

re: #149 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Saying just never made sense to me.

I know what you mean. Never made sense to me either.
That's part of the reason I'm so sick of hearing it - it means nothing.

156 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:21:19pm

Oopsy daisy (I understand that phrase), gotta run.

157 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:21:37pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

Well a real evil scientists would turn the world's population into furries. Fangs, fur, and tails for all! BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA! WHERE IS YOUR GOD NOW!

Ahem, did that come out.////

158 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:21:53pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

Those bastards! How dare they honor him?
/

159 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:22:17pm
160 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:22:55pm

re: #153 Mike McDaniel

Beside that, all else is trivia.

Upholding the Constitution is never trivial.

161 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:22:56pm

Why in the world is it so hard for the GOP to communicate the obvious. Is everyone so compromised? Or just stupid? I think Steele get it, but does not know how to manage it.

National defense.
fiscal responsibility.

All the rest is just noise.

gay marriage, stem cells, what have you...noise.

KISS

Lots more losses until this gets boiled down.

162 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:23:06pm

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

I somehow doubt that, on the score that the death toll by the godless ideologies of the 20th century may well dwarf the deaths racked up in previous human history.

ding ding ding

163 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:24:54pm

re: #152 cronus

I've seen a couple blogs trying to spin the drop in educated voters as a result of "leftist indoctrination" in college. No doubt some of that exists, but the larger truth is that when you are a political party that appears hostile to knowledge, voters that value knowledge are going to take offense.

Right. The tendency seems to be an outside influence or as you mention "leftist indoctrination." It has an effect no doubt but there are other contributing factors to this. As I mentioned earlier and can sum up another way is that creationism politics is also a symptom of other ideologies. But, the greater negative effect comes from creationism alone as other factors of science and the GOP.

164 JHW  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:24:59pm

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

I don't think Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan were particularly religious either.

165 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:25:00pm

re: #139 Bloodnok

The other day (I was looking for some Obama quotes) I went through dozens of articles on Obama (some of this went back to 2004/2005). Nearly every single article I came across, the "news" item would report (or make a comment) about Obama being "inexperienced" or the article would remark how Obama was someone with the least amount of experience of any candidate and that this was a "handicap"-- Obama's inexperience was constantly noted in nearly every article I came across...so, if/when someone says that Obama's inexperience was glossed over by the press, well, I don't think that's the case at all -- it was constantly remarked on -- yet, for some reason (which I can't figure out) the public chose to ignore it...seemingly, inexperience or experience, it just didn't seem to factor into the decision-making of the general public on voting day...

166 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:25:10pm

re: #143 Charles

One of the talking points about "Ida" emerging from creationists: they're questioning the timing. Isn't it curious, they say (wink, wink), that this news just happens to come out in the year of Charles Darwin's 150th birthday?

Evil scientists! Tricksy!

Damn! They figured it out. Guess we'll have to delay the release of the fish-with-opposable-thumbs "fossil".
/

167 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:25:42pm

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

I somehow doubt that, on the score that the death toll by the godless ideologies of the 20th century may well dwarf the deaths racked up in previous human history.

You well be right my friend...
I'm pretty sure it's in the top 5 list....

168 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:25:44pm

re: #151 HoosierHoops

When I was a child..Someone said something I've never forgotten..
There have been more people killed in the name of God than for any other reasons put together..Religion has been damned by it's own actions..
very sad really...

Stalin
Mao
Hitler
Saddam

I think the non-religious assholes are catching up.

169 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:26:07pm

Let's have a ball and a biscuit ...

Youtube Video
170 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:26:09pm

re: #164 JHW

I don't think Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan were particularly religious either.

or Alexander the (why do they call him) Great, etc.

171 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:26:37pm

re: #153 Mike McDaniel

The ideas are out there. They've been there for decades. But the Republican leadership has too often betrayed their friends in order to curry favor with their enemies.

My own position? I want the Government's nose out of my business and its hand out of my pocket. I want the Federal Government to stop trying to do the jobs of state and local governments and do its job. Remember 9/11? I do...and the Dirty Little Secret is that if the Federal Government had stayed in its lane, they might have nipped the scheme in the bud.

As to the whole creationism debate, I really don't care. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my nose. I'm far more concerned about where a candidate stands on issues of strategy and foreign policy. Because if national security gets botched, several hundred thousand Americans will pay for it with their lives.

Beside that, all else is trivia.

It picks your pocket. Teaching it public school directly costs you. Teaching faith as science reduces class time for science, it cost in having kids not being solidly taught in science basics.

It affects national security. We people can't think logically and rationally. When Obama proposes to ban nuclear weapons, logic dictate that is a ludicrous idea, but too many people say, yeah, no nucs as if it's the wisest thing said since a holy man in a forest farted.

172 sbvft contributor  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:26:58pm

Sorry, but I'm not all that impressed with the college graduates of today, especially those with advanced degrees. I don't find them particularly smarter or all that useful in the real world. I work in the environmental engineering field, and those with more than 4 years of schooling, Masters in this or that, generally are those that take forever to complete a project, are lacking in common sense & their work ethic leaves something to be desired. Long years spent in schooling - the university setting and such - does not automatically transform that person into a particularly productive and useful member of society. In fact, many times just the opposite.

173 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:27:08pm

re: #165 J.S.

It was a pretty exceptional election. The very charismatic Obama vs the odd couple of McCain and Palin. It wasn't even really a fair matchup in hindsight.

174 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:27:14pm

re: #137 Capitalist Tool

re: #105 austin_blue

I am asking about evolution of the consciousness of an individual species, not a larger concept of consciousness in general...
e. g. this or that bird species which developed a bill suitable for eating a particular seed... can the gradual change be explained solely by outside forces causing gradual/sudden mutation into new form, or is the new form driven by changed understanding within the precursor individuals?

You know, that's a good question, and it gallops toward the mystical, because how does one reproduce the experiment? I have the feeling that most higher animals have some level of consciousness, however you would like to define it. A friend of mine has a rescue dog who is described as "head shy". The fact is, that dog was beaten regularly and is terribly afraid of people she doesn't know. She remembers. Is memory consciousness? I don't think so.

I had another another friend who defined human consciousness as the realization that you were mortal. All I know is that until you grow, as a species, a sufficiently large cerebral cortex, you aren't going to be able to get that point.

175 cvandeve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:27:23pm

I am a Christian and a trained scientist with degrees in Biology and Computer Scientist. I see no difficulty in believing in Evolution and God.
The more things change, the more they stay the same. Think of a Waterfall. As for my Republican Party, we need to go back to less government and more person responsibility.

176 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:27:32pm

re: #170 Capitalist Tool

or Alexander the (why do they call him) Great, etc.

When Alexander was my age, he'd already conquered the known world and died. I haven't done much, I confess, but that's an impressive record (the conquering bit, not the dying).

177 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:28:29pm

re: #172 sbvft contributor

Sorry, but I'm not all that impressed with the college graduates of today, especially those with advanced degrees.

You may not be impressed with them, but they're voting.

178 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:28:58pm
179 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:29:57pm

Hockey's back on BBL.

180 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:29:59pm

re: #169 JacksonTn

Let's have a ball and a biscuit ...


rubber biscuit

Youtube Video
181 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:30:07pm

re: #166 livefreeor die

Damn! They figured it out. Guess we'll have to delay the release of the fish-with-opposable-thumbs "fossil".
/


Jus' don't tell 'em 'bout no Trout Mask Replica

182 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:30:11pm

re: #172 sbvft contributor

I've spent the past few days looking at over 100 resumes. Non-college folks are even worse. I've got a list of maybe ten I want to pre-screen over the phone.

183 Ojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:30:13pm
A point that Steele made: “The Republican Party is again going to emerge as the party of new ideas.”

Why, Mr Steele?

Since politics and governance deal with human nature, which changes very slowly if at all, the new ideas are almost guaranteed to be mistakes.

Oh the morons, they are legion.

184 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:31:13pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

It was a pretty exceptional election. The very charismatic Obama vs the odd couple of McCain and Palin. It wasn't even really a fair matchup in hindsight.

And yet the spread was what - 3-4%?

Landslide my ass.

185 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:31:14pm

hold onto yer socks....Little Feat

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

186 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:31:26pm

re: #173 Killgore Trout

Yep, must agree that the choice for the Republican ticket/ the candidates (both for President and v.p) was horrific...

187 directorblue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:32:41pm

Someone's going to have to explain this to me:


[Link: hotair.com...]

Gallup: Party Identification All Tied Up... For the first time since 2005.


I don't get the disconnect.

188 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:32:56pm
189 Ojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:33:25pm

re: #181 Capitalist Tool

The Jackalope.

Pet of Sasquatch.

190 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:33:36pm

re: #3 Sharmuta

Or maybe some old ideas that work could come back in fashion.

Like fiscal responsibility and individual rights.

Just a thought.

BBA!

Starve the Beast!

191 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:33:39pm

re: #172 sbvft contributor

Sorry, but I'm not all that impressed with the college graduates of today, especially those with advanced degrees. I don't find them particularly smarter or all that useful in the real world. I work in the environmental engineering field, and those with more than 4 years of schooling, Masters in this or that, generally are those that take forever to complete a project, are lacking in common sense & their work ethic leaves something to be desired. Long years spent in schooling - the university setting and such - does not automatically transform that person into a particularly productive and useful member of society. In fact, many times just the opposite.

That was very judgmental...and I believe unfair..Our kids know Students that are whip smart and speak multiple languages...
And common sense? Argggg..Do you know any college kids? errrrrr

192 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:33:48pm

re: #178 Iron Fist

True- people can say they support individual rights and not mean it- slip into hypocrisy when it's their pet baby. But that's when we take the time to correct them. Like with the gun issue.

What good is it to have individual and property rights if you don't have the right to defend them? Pretty weak grasp on rights if someone wants to argue against it. I think most rational people are capable of re-examining their positions when it's pointed out to them they're not being consistent.

193 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:34:13pm

re: #187 directorblue

Someone's going to have to explain this to me:


I don't get the disconnect.

I think the hard left and the hard right are entrenching and the rest are galloping toward the middle in the way they identify themselves.

194 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:35:02pm

re: #176 Guanxi88

When Alexander was my age, he'd already conquered the known world and died. I haven't done much, I confess, but that's an impressive record (the conquering bit, not the dying).

Conquering the world meant that lots of people died. The whole conquering others thing may be a human paradigm (at least it was then), but Alexander was known to get bored and go "hunting men" (his words) among other superlative traits. He wiped out at least one distinct tribe.

195 carefulnow  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:36:02pm

re: #172 sbvft contributor

Where, what part of the country, do you work? I find the same in Southern California.

196 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:37:29pm
197 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:39:12pm

re: #194 Capitalist Tool

Conquering the world meant that lots of people died. The whole conquering others thing may be a human paradigm (at least it was then), but Alexander was known to get bored and go "hunting men" (his words) among other superlative traits. He wiped out at least one distinct tribe.

Well, if I'd named him, he'd have been Alexander the Conqueror, or something like that, but I defer to the conventions and call him "Mr. the Great"

198 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:39:26pm

Education doesn't always confer common sense. Nor does education prevent idiocy. I've known educated people to be idiots, and have found wisdom from the mouths of morons. There is knowledge, and there is common sense. They can be exclusive, and they can be found to co-exist.

199 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:39:52pm

re: #194 Capitalist Tool

Conquering the world meant that lots of people died. The whole conquering others thing may be a human paradigm (at least it was then), but Alexander was known to get bored and go "hunting men" (his words) among other superlative traits. He wiped out at least one distinct tribe.

And don't bring up Herod the Great. Talk about good PR for a bad guy!

200 sbvft contributor  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:40:39pm

Please please please people, McCain lost & Republicans have been in the dumps because of Bush/Iraq. The effort in Iraq and the relentless 24/7 hate directed towards him by our loathsome media so thoroughly compromised the Republican brand, we were bound to lose the last couple rounds of elections. Sheeet - Spongebob Squarepants could have beaten McCain. People were saying the same things about Republicans in 1964, that the party was finished. Can someone please tell me what happened after that during the next 40 years of Presidential politics? Hmmmmm?

201 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:40:50pm

re: #189 Ojoe

The Jackalope.

Pet of Sasquatch.

Nemesis of ManBearPig.

202 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:40:52pm

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US willing to speak out, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

203 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:42:05pm

re: #202 Charles

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

Zuhdi is on of the GOOD GUYS!

Absolute stark raving insanity!

204 sbvft contributor  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:42:12pm

re: #195 carefulnow

10 minutes outside Philly. South Jersey.

205 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:43:12pm

re: #202 Charles

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

Do I really have to go diving into the cesspool? I just took a shower.

206 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:43:43pm

re: #198 Sharmuta

Education doesn't always confer common sense. Nor does education prevent idiocy. I've known educated people to be idiots, and have found wisdom from the mouths of morons. There is knowledge, and there is common sense. They can be exclusive, and they can be found to co-exist.

High school forces one to learn by rote. College forces one to think. Graduate school teaches one to specialize. Idiots and savants at all levels.

207 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:44:18pm

Wow!

The boss linked to Asshugs.

208 Noam Sayin'  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:44:48pm

Why would Geller attack Zuhdi Jasser?

209 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:45:10pm

re: #202 Charles

Interesting- one of the comments says:

This is so depressing. Every time I find a Muslim whom I think is sincere in wanting to reform Islam, I find out later he wasn't all that I thought he was. First Walid Shoebat, then Muslims Against Sharia, now Zuhdi Jasser.

What's funny is Pamela writes for them. They were never a muslim blog.

210 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:45:41pm

re: #208 Noam Sayin'

Why would Geller attack Zuhdi Jasser?

He called out her boy Geert.

211 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:45:44pm

re: #191 HoosierHoops

Hoosier, are you following the Western Conf. at all? If so, what's your take on this Chris Andersen character? He actually looks good to me, but he's apparently a drug-addled headcase.

212 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:02pm
213 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:26pm

re: #209 Sharmuta

Interesting- one of the comments says:

What's funny is Pamela writes for them. They were never a muslim blog.

So, she's auto-deconstructing right before our eyes; folding space-time with the density and mass of her outrage and madness. If only we could harness that power.

214 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:37pm

re: #198 Sharmuta

Education doesn't always confer common sense. Nor does education prevent idiocy. I've known educated people to be idiots, and have found wisdom from the mouths of morons. There is knowledge, and there is common sense. They can be exclusive, and they can be found to co-exist.

Maybe not my friend..But overall...We cannot divide college students between common sense and none at all..It's a false argument..
Most of us were immature idiots in School...It's unfair..
Hell I made GWB look a Saint

215 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:37pm

re: #211 Lincolntf

Hoosier, are you following the Western Conf. at all? If so, what's your take on this Chris Andersen character? He actually looks good to me, but he's apparently a drug-addled headcase.

Was.

216 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:38pm

Ideal POTUS...

Don't pander to the far right or left, keep your hands to yourself...and out of my pockets, have a conscience, and get the fuck out of my business.

217 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:41pm

re: #208 Noam Sayin'

Why would Geller attack Zuhdi Jasser?

Why are there 3 stable elemental particles (electron, proton, neutron)? 'Cuz there are. Pam attacks for the same reason.

218 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:45pm
219 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:46:53pm

re: #212 momcat

mc ... good just really tired ... chillin to some music and reading ...

220 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:47:16pm

re: #215 Racer X

Was good or was a headcase?

221 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:47:16pm

re: #187 directorblue

Someone's going to have to explain this to me:


I don't get the disconnect.

The Hot Air linked Gallup poll is party identification and is a "outer" according to Nate Silver. The more recent one, is how fast it's eroding in different demographics, mostly to the independents.

222 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:47:50pm

re: #216 jorline

Ideal POTUS...

Don't pander to the far right or left, keep your hands to yourself...and out of my pockets, have a conscience, and get the fuck out of my business.

Such a candidate would have my vote, but not the nomination of any major party, I fear.

223 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:47:55pm
224 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:47:57pm

re: #221 avanti

The Hot Air linked Gallup poll is party identification and is a "outer" according to Nate Silver. The more recent one, is how fast it's eroding in different demographics, mostly to the independents.

avanti ... do you have a crush on Nate too? ... just wondering ...

225 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:48:07pm

blackhawks 2- redwings2

226 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:48:35pm

re: #220 Lincolntf

Was good or was a headcase?

Was a drug addled headcase. He seems to have cleaned up his act. Dude can play.

Lakers will win.

;-)

227 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:48:47pm

re: #216 jorline

Ideal POTUS...

Don't pander to the far right or left, keep your hands to yourself...and out of my pockets, have a conscience, and get the fuck out of my business.

I'd have to put congress in jail........

;-)

228 shiplord kirel  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:49:10pm

Unlike most politically activist kooks, the kooks who have hijacked the GOP are not really interested in political power, at least not in the sense of winning back the White House or a Congressional majority. Theirs is primarily a commercial enterprise, the Malarkey-Industrial Complex if you like, and the Republican Party is simply a unifying framework for marketing their books, videos, homeschooling guides, lecture tours, nutritional supplements, and the like. Indeed, this whole huge industry might in fact be more profitable if it remains a dissident but high-profile minority. Real power might require them to put up or shut up and they have reason to fear that.

229 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:49:36pm

re: #159 buzzsawmonkey

I somehow doubt that, on the score that the death toll by the godless ideologies of the 20th century may well dwarf the deaths racked up in previous human history.

Not a chance. Even granting the rather high figure of 100 million people killed in the 20th century by Hitler, Stalin, Mao and Pol Pot (and Hitler was far from Godless), if only 50,000 people per year were killed worldwide in the name of some god or other during the time from Jesus to now (a VERY conservative estimate), it would equal that number. And that's not counting all those killed before then.

230 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:50:02pm

re: #228 shiplord kirel

Theirs is primarily a commercial enterprise, the Malarkey-Industrial Complex if you like, and the Republican Party is simply a unifying framework for marketing their books, videos, homeschooling guides, lecture tours, nutritional supplements, and the like. Indeed, this whole huge industry might in fact be more profitable if it remains a dissident but high-profile minority. Real power might require them to put up or shut up and they have reason to fear that.

Cynical, but probably pretty close to the dead center of the bullseye.

231 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:50:26pm

re: #222 Guanxi88

Such a candidate would have my vote, but not the nomination of any major party, I fear.

Agree....time to shop for a new party...the time is right.

Buzz for President!

232 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:50:37pm

re: #202 Charles

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

Looks like the worms are rallying against Zuhdi Jasser because of his stance against the ignorant fascist Geert Wilders. A link in Pamela Geller's moronic blog leads to an equally moronic blog: Tundra Tabloids.

233 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:08pm

re: #164 JHW

I don't think Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan were particularly religious either.

They were religious, just not monotheist.

234 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:25pm

re: #211 Lincolntf

Hoosier, are you following the Western Conf. at all? If so, what's your take on this Chris Andersen character? He actually looks good to me, but he's apparently a drug-addled headcase.

Great athlete..He is long and he brings lots of energy..
Dear God..Please let LA lose tonight..
Strike down those horrible Hollywood sinner types..
Do not bless jack Nickelson's team to win..Curse his acting oh lord..
Thy will be done...in the Staples center and in heaven..
Amen
/

235 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:26pm

re: #226 Racer X

Upding for your answer, but I'm mentally down-dinging you for the Laker victory wish thing.
A Josh Hamilton type of story always warms the cockles, and I applaud him (Andersen) for getting back.

236 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:27pm

Searching for Wilders last week, I came upon this "open letter" to him from a man in Jakarta:

[Link: www.thejakartapost.com...]

This morning I found that Wilders had responded to this letter, in what I found to be one of the most condescending reads of the year so far:

[Link: www.thejakartapost.com...]

237 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:32pm

re: #228 shiplord kirel

Unlike most politically activist kooks, the kooks who have hijacked the GOP are not really interested in political power, at least not in the sense of winning back the White House or a Congressional majority. Theirs is primarily a commercial enterprise, the Malarkey-Industrial Complex if you like, and the Republican Party is simply a unifying framework for marketing their books, videos, homeschooling guides, lecture tours, nutritional supplements, and the like. Indeed, this whole huge industry might in fact be more profitable if it remains a dissident but high-profile minority. Real power might require them to put up or shut up and they have reason to fear that.

I could not agree more...you have nailed it...similarly it worked for the left marketing BDS

238 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:51:41pm

re: #231 jorline

Agree....time to shop for a new party...the time is right.

Buzz for President!

Not Berzelius Windrip, I hope. You mean the simian, right?

239 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:52:13pm

re: #170 Capitalist Tool

or Alexander the (why do they call him) Great, etc.

He was religious, too - just not monotheist.

240 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:52:21pm

re: #228 shiplord kirel

the Malarkey-Industrial Complex

Points for the reference.

241 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:52:44pm

re: #227 jcm

I'd have to put congress in jail........

;-)

lol...go for it!

242 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:53:18pm

re: #227 jcm

I'd have to put congress in jail........

;-)

Well, we've had it the other way for a while, why not switch things up?

243 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:53:50pm

re: #225 gtrs

Detroit redwings power play...

244 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:53:57pm

What's also interesting about pamela's post is it's her friends promoting that movie:

[Link: www.ipsnews.net...]

245 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:54:03pm

re: #238 Guanxi88

Not Berzelius Windrip, I hope. You mean the simian, right?

I mean buzzsawmonkey!

246 anchors_aweigh  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:54:32pm
"The reports of my death are greatly exaggerated"

For some reason I can't get that quote out of my head....

247 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:54:38pm

re: #245 jorline

I mean buzzsawmonkey!

Good! That's what I figured, but couldn't resist the Sinclair Lewis reference.

248 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:54:44pm

re: #243 J.S.

Detroit redwings power play...

Commonly called a mugging?

///

249 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:54:55pm

re: #224 JacksonTn

avanti ... do you have a crush on Nate too? ... just wondering ...

Nate is the go to guy when it comes to polling, a real numbers geek. He been closer then any of the big polling guys and often finds flaws in their methodology.

250 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:07pm

re: #243 J.S.

Detroit redwings power play...

re: #248 jcm

Commonly called a mugging?

///

Carjackers in shorts?

251 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:44pm
252 driftwood  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:53pm

#39:

"Well, I've spent quite a number of years carrying the flag of the 'Old Conservatism.' And I can say with conviction that the religious issues of these groups have little or nothing to do with conservative or liberal politics. The uncompromising position of these groups is a divisive element that could tear apart the very spirit of our representative system, if they gain sufficient strength."

-Barry Goldwater


I loved the quotes.
New party: GoldLizard.

253 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:56pm

re: #218 buzzsawmonkey

I want a party that's a "big tent." I don't want one that's a big, uh, tree.

Big tents obviously make some people big tense.

254 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:55:59pm

re: #224 JacksonTn

avanti ... do you have a crush on Nate too? ... just wondering ...

I don't love Nate....but I respect him. 538 absolutely *nailed* the last election. For a baseball stats guy, he's impressive.

255 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:56:06pm
256 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:56:19pm
257 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:56:25pm

re: #250 Guanxi88

Carjackers in shorts?

They can high stick, but can they drive a stick?

258 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:56:46pm

re: #223 Iron Fist

I was the compassionate, kind, caring motherfucker you all know.

Rotating title nomination.

259 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:57:15pm

re: #249 avanti

Nate is the go to guy when it comes to polling, a real numbers geek. He been closer then any of the big polling guys and often finds flaws in their methodology.

avanti ... I know who Nate is ... he is the dems go to guy ... I was asking if you had a crush on him ...

260 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:57:38pm

CAIR doesn't like Jasser either. So does that mean pamela's now in bed with CAIR?

261 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:57:39pm

re: #252 driftwood

#39:


I loved the quotes.
New party: GoldLizard.

I ♥ AuH2O

262 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:57:42pm

re: #258 karmic_inquisitor

Rotating title nomination.

Great line for an autobiography. I'll steal it.

263 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:58:11pm

re: #255 Iron Fist

What am I missing? It sounds like a good, or possibly good, movie.

You're forgetting to factor in pamela is insane.

264 Grand Poobah  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:58:14pm

I guess the concept of "freedom" and individual liberty and responsibility is not new anymore...too bad this other alternative, control by state is over 20,000 years old.

265 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:58:20pm

i smell me some OT in the hockey game; YUM.............

266 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:58:37pm

re: #202 Charles

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US willing to speak out, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

Good Lord, it sounds like she's attacking him for not being a real Muslim or something because he doesn't subscribe to the extremists' agenda or their view of the Koran.

267 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:58:48pm

re: #260 Sharmuta

CAIR doesn't like Jasser either. So does that mean pamela's now in bed with CAIR?

Stranger bedfellows.

268 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:59:18pm

re: #267 jorline

If she can dish it, she can take it.

pamela geller's in bed with CAIR.

269 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 6:59:41pm
270 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #264 Grand Poobah

I guess the concept of "freedom" and individual liberty and responsibility is not new anymore...too bad this other alternative, control by state is over 20,000 years old.

It does have a certain longevity going for it. We humans have lived in anarchy or tyranny for most of our known or knowable history. Maybe the durability of these defective modes of government is a symptom of our shortcomings.

I despair.

I grow old
I grow old
I shall wear the bottoms of my trousers rolled.

271 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:02pm

re: #259 JacksonTn
NATE IS A DEM but his accuracy can't be denied

272 JHW  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:06pm

re: #233 Salamantis

Probably and I hate to disagree with you on this, but was religion the main impetus in their conquests or was it conquest itself and raw power? I think religion was marginal to those specifically and I tend to agree with buzz on this. The same can be said for many of the most famous conquerors that come to mind, for instance Napoleon or, as mentioned, Alexander. These men might have been religious to one extent or other, but I believe it was tangenential to their lust for power and conquest.

Alexander the Great, Wiki

Alexander and his successors were tolerant of non-Greek religious practices, and interesting syncretisms developed in the new Greek towns he founded in Central Asia. The first realistic portrayals of the Buddha appeared at this time; they are reminiscent of Greek statues of Apollo. Several Buddhist traditions may have been influenced by the ancient Greek religion; the concept of Boddhisatvas is reminiscent of Greek divine heroes,[72] and some Mahayana ceremonial practices (burning incense, gifts of flowers and food placed on altars) are similar to those practiced by the ancient Greeks. Zen Buddhism draws in part on the ideas of Greek stoics, such as Zeno.[73]
273 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:12pm

I did not know Dereks wife Susan played the guitar ...

Youtube Video
274 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:19pm

If he were alive today Barry Goldwater would be chased out of the party as a RINO.

Amazing when you think about it.

275 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:37pm
276 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:00:51pm

re: #268 Sharmuta

If she can dish it, she can take it.

pamela geller's in bed with CAIR.

but...but...is she one of the 72 original virgins?

277 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:01:12pm

re: #271 gtrs

NATE IS A DEM but his accuracy can't be denied

gtrs ... did I ever say anything about whether he was accurate or not? ... no ... I did not ... and I am aware of Nate and baseball ...

278 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:01:27pm

re: #275 Iron Fist

Even you're not crazy enough to toss your lot in with nazis.

279 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:01:29pm

re: #272 JHW

Probably and I hate to disagree with you on this, but was religion the main impetus in their conquests or was it conquest itself and raw power? I think religion was marginal to those specifically and I tend to agree with buzz on this. The same can be said for many of the most famous conquerors that come to mind, for instance Napoleon or, as mentioned, Alexander. These men might have been religious to one extent or other, but I believe it was tangenential to their lust for power and conquest.

Alexander the Great, Wiki

POWER is a religion all it's own.

280 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:01:36pm

Hey Hoopster...you still here?

281 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:01:50pm

sweet ballad by the Nevilles....keep the faith brothers and sisters


[Link: www.imeem.com...]

282 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:02:46pm

re: #268 Sharmuta

If she can dish it, she can take it.

pamela geller's in bed with CAIR.

She's indulging that whole Sheik of Araby thing, is she?

283 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:02:51pm

re: #273 JacksonTn

I did not know Dereks wife Susan played the guitar ...


[Video]

yes, together they are just awsome...I love her

284 JHW  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:03:08pm

re: #279 jcm

True and it's probably the most widespread one.

285 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:03:22pm

Is it easier to ask who Pamela Geller does not consider an enemy right now?

286 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:03:42pm

re: #254 austin_blue

I don't love Nate....but I respect him. 538 absolutely *nailed* the last election. For a baseball stats guy, he's impressive.

Been a while since he was just known as the baseball guy, he has two books in the works. Some political party will probably hire him and he'll lose his credibility. I like the way he does a statistical critique of the flaws in other polling, even if i can't follow the math.

287 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:04:03pm

re: #279 jcm

POWER is a religion all it's own.

Ursus, "Beneath the Planet of the Apes":

The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!

288 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:04:32pm

re: #277 JacksonTn

gtrs ... did I ever say anything about whether he was accurate or not? ... no ... I did not ... and I am aware of Nate and baseball ...

OMG..I've been bitching about the weak side rotating defense for the Lakers..I figured their downfall..They are playing like monsters to close the 2nd..
Crap! Kobe is really great...Dang it! Somebody get in his face!

289 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:04:41pm

re: #285 livefreeor die

Is it easier to ask who Pamela Geller does not consider an enemy right now?

An ever shrinking list, like a Dutch auction enemies list.

290 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:04:47pm

**Medical Detail and Off Topic Warning**

I'm back in Virginia. What a weekend. It was a wonderful graduation, great party with the immediate and extended family as well as friends. As I am unable to go one darn weekend without drama of some level, I ended up at Walter Reed for the past 2 days. As some may recall, I had a lump last October that after the mammogram and ultra sound appeared to be a cyst. Not being one for unnecessary surgery, I opted to ignore it as was an option given to me. The last two weeks the thing has grown and became quite painful, so to the breast clinic I went. Another ultrasound and this morning they got 7cc of fluid out of it. The ultrasound showed it may have bleed earlier - a cause of concern, but the fluid was the right shade of ookie so as not to cause concern. I was discharged with the warning that should it fill back up, I should worry based on the bleeding part. Well, of course it felt fine when I left besides bruising from the procedure. Now it feels as if there is a little lump there. Maybe I am paranoid. Please cross fingers and toes that is the case.

291 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:04:52pm

And, it's overtime...

292 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:08pm

re: #280 jorline

Hey Hoopster...you still here?

You betcha!

293 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:16pm

Susan Tedeschi


Youtube Video
294 Altermite  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:18pm

re: #274 karmic_inquisitor

If he were alive today Barry Goldwater would be chased out of the party as a RINO.

Amazing when you think about it.

Towards the end of his life, he more or less was.

295 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:22pm

re: #288 HoosierHoops

The worst thing about Kobe is his greatness.

296 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:35pm

re: #288 HoosierHoops

OMG..I've been bitching about the weak side rotating defense for the Lakers..I figured their downfall..They are playing like monsters to close the 2nd..
Crap! Kobe is really great...Dang it! Somebody get in his face!

HH .. um ... Hoops ... I don't know crap about basketball ... I am thinking that was for someone else ... lol ..

297 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:05:54pm

re: #292 HoosierHoops

You betcha!

My son is in DC with his 8th grade class…all 20 of them. They’re at the Nationals/Pirates baseball game right now and he’s watching the LA/Denver game on his GF’s phone…lmao

298 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:06:01pm

re: #290 ArmyWife

I'll cross fingers and toes and say a prayer for good measure!

299 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:06:28pm

re: #271 gtrs

NATE IS A DEM but his accuracy can't be denied

gtrs ... and one other little thing ... I AM F*CKING SICK OF POLLS! ....

300 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:06:32pm

re: #251 buzzsawmonkey

That's assuming that everybody was killed "in the name of some god or other," and forgetting that many of the people killed were doubtless killed simply for good old conquest and plunder or hereditary animosities or the like.

It is also forgetting how very, very small populations were for most of human history. The US population, for example, was only around 50 million at the time of the Civil War, and even as late as WWII was only about 100 million.

The Earth was a very empty place, humanly speaking, until very recent times.

Yes, there were fewer people in olden times, but a greater percentage of them died violent deaths, so it all evens out. And there were a million people worldwide as early as 8000 BCE.

A lot of people have been killed by acolytes of a lot of different religions, both existent and extinct, for a long, LONG time. In many cases, I'm sure that many of the leaders were using the religions as psychosocial means to enhance troop (and group) cohesion in order to achieve purposes beyond divine command (theft of territory, property or resources, elimination of competition, etc.), but their victims ended up just as dead.

301 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:06:53pm

re: #285 livefreeor die

Is it easier to ask who Pamela Geller does not consider an enemy right now?

Robert and Geert.

302 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:07:16pm

OT IT IS! OZZY VS. THE BULIN WALL; GOTTA LUV IT

303 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:07:44pm

re: #296 JacksonTn

Just play along and say something like..."A stiff perimeter game will overcome the shifting picks".
We won't know the difference.

304 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:07:50pm

re: #287 Guanxi88

Ursus, "Beneath the Planet of the Apes":

The only thing that counts in the end is power! Naked merciless force!

Power frequently doesn't like the competition from religion.

305 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:07:58pm

re: #290 ArmyWife

**Medical Detail and Off Topic Warning**

I'm back in Virginia. What a weekend. It was a wonderful graduation, great party with the immediate and extended family as well as friends. As I am unable to go one darn weekend without drama of some level, I ended up at Walter Reed for the past 2 days. As some may recall, I had a lump last October that after the mammogram and ultra sound appeared to be a cyst. Not being one for unnecessary surgery, I opted to ignore it as was an option given to me. The last two weeks the thing has grown and became quite painful, so to the breast clinic I went. Another ultrasound and this morning they got 7cc of fluid out of it. The ultrasound showed it may have bleed earlier - a cause of concern, but the fluid was the right shade of ookie so as not to cause concern. I was discharged with the warning that should it fill back up, I should worry based on the bleeding part. Well, of course it felt fine when I left besides bruising from the procedure. Now it feels as if there is a little lump there. Maybe I am paranoid. Please cross fingers and toes that is the case.

306 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:08:02pm

re: #297 jorline

My son is in DC with his 8th grade class…all 20 of them. They’re at the Nationals/Pirates baseball game right now and he’s watching the LA/Denver game on his GF’s phone…lmao

Wow! I always wanted to go to DC..
I can't wait till the 2nd half..This is a war!

307 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:08:30pm

re: #299 JacksonTn

gtrs ... and one other little thing ... I AM F*CKING SICK OF POLLS! ....

hahaha!....oooff!
sorry

308 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:09:06pm

re: #277 JacksonTn

did i say you did? nope; and i am aware of him from baseball as well(that's actually how i first heard of him and his stat analysis)

309 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:09:29pm

re: #271 gtrs

NATE IS A DEM but his accuracy can't be denied

Yea, he was prediction a BHO win in March, when Hillary looked like a shoe in. I thought he was nuts at the time.

310 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:09:40pm

re: #263 Sharmuta

You're forgetting to factor in pamela is insane.

She sure is. I think they're all insane. The punch line is that no one really pays that much attention to them or they're not take seriously. I think of what a motley crew they make if you could picture Pam Geller, Robert Spencer, and Debbie Schlussel in the same room. Just hearing their voices is grating enough.

311 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:03pm

Question that Lizards should ask creationists:

"Does this hellfire make me look fat?"

312 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:09pm

re: #308 gtrs

gtrs ... didn't say you did brother ... just saying I AM F*CKING SICK OF POLLS! ...

313 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:16pm

re: #296 JacksonTn

HH .. um ... Hoops ... I don't know crap about basketball ... I am thinking that was for someone else ... lol ..

Sorry..I misquoted someone..dang it!

314 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:40pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

Robert and Geert.

And CAIR. It's like the enemy of the enemy of the enemy of her enemy is her original enemy and now friend.

I'm feeling dizzy.

315 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:56pm

re: #310 Gus 802

Sadly, that isn't true. Mzzz. Geller is taken far too seriously for anyone's good. It makes me bang my head against the wall, to be honest.

316 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:10:59pm

re: #311 karmic_inquisitor

Question that Lizards should ask creationists:

"Does this hellfire make me look fat?"

And how do you properly accessorize brimstone?

317 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:11:04pm

re: #314 livefreeor die

And CAIR. It's like the enemy of the enemy of the enemy of her enemy is her original enemy and now friend.

I'm feeling dizzy.

Who's on first?

318 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:11:07pm

re: #309 avanti

You drinking tonight, Avanti? That post had "slurring of speech" written all over it.

319 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:11:33pm

re: #299 JacksonTn
that's fine but the polls do tell us some things and michael steele is a clown(just sayin'); back to hockey and basketball here

320 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:12:01pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

And how do you properly accessorize brimstone?

Boils? Lice? Gotta be a plague, anyway, but which one?

321 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:12:08pm

re: #315 ArmyWife

Sadly, that isn't true. Mzzz. Geller is taken far too seriously for anyone's good. It makes me bang my head against the wall, to be honest.

I mean taken seriously by government bodies. They are taken seriously by their "audience."

322 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:12:39pm

re: #319 gtrs

that's fine but the polls do tell us some things and michael steele is a clown(just sayin'); back to hockey and basketball here

gtrs ... f*ck you ...back to hockey and basketball (or not) ... maybe music ...

323 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:12:41pm

re: #312 JacksonTn
can't blame you(seems like there is a poll every minute) but those polls have some meaning

324 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:13:09pm
325 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:13:38pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

And how do you properly accessorize brimstone?

The Smoking Sulphuric necklace and earring ensemble might be appropriate....

326 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:13:45pm

re: #188 buzzsawmonkey

For those confused by the hackneyed phrase, "speaking truth to power," let me remind you of the Fool in King Lear.

In Shakespeare, the only people who invariably speak the truth are fools (jesters), madmen/women, or low-comic menials; "comedy" is the telling of plain truth that cuts through social pretense. This is true in Don Quixote as well; it is the comic servant Sancho who is the realist, and who punctures, or tries to puncture, the high-flown pretensions of his master by speaking truth to him.

The jester was privileged to "speak truth to (kingly) power" because he had the refuge of saying that an ugly home truth was "just a joke." The jester, as someone with the king's ear and the privilege of speaking the truth without fear of retaliation was, accordingly, a person of some power himself. For others, "speaking truth to power" was always attended with serious risk.

Today, of course, "speaking truth to power" usually means, not a jester forcing his lord to confront unpleasant fact, but a buffoon preening over his own imagined moral rectitude posturing uselessly.

Gates for court jester?

327 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:17pm

re: #290 ArmyWife

Maybe I am paranoid. Please cross fingers and toes that is the case.

Most lumps are nothing, but still worthy of concern. My wife seems to collect benign lumps, hoping that's all you have, but nothing paranoid about being cautious.

328 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:25pm

re: #317 Guanxi88

Who's on stage?

Youtube Video
329 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:40pm

Hell of a shot!

330 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:53pm

re: #329 jorline

Yep.

331 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:56pm

re: #285 livefreeor die

Is it easier to ask who Pamela Geller does not consider an enemy right now?

Vlaams Belang

332 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:14:58pm

re: #321 Gus 802

Ok. Sorry. But they are taken too seriously by their audience and so members of talk shows and bigger named blogs that ought to know better. How's that?

333 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:15:13pm

re: #328 Idle Drifter

Who's on stage?


[Video]

Slappy the Squirrel.

334 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:15:26pm

re: #322 JacksonTn
fuck me? whatever.... wasn't trying to start shit here; was just watching some hoops and some hockey..............but nate knows his stuff

335 ShanghaiEd  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:15:49pm

re: #33 Guanxi88

Hmmm. Somehow I don't think it's the lack of a spoon that's turning people off to the GOP's product. I think it's the smell.

336 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:15:59pm

re: #326 The Shadow Do

Gates for court jester?

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

337 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:16:03pm

I'm really disappointed in Debbie Schlussel. She started out as a reasonable person and now...
should have known the first time I ever heard that voice.

338 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:16:11pm

re: #333 Guanxi88

Slappy the Squirrel.

Is that the latest mutant animal hosting the Palestian version of Barney?

339 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:16:22pm

re: #332 ArmyWife

Ok. Sorry. But they are taken too seriously by their audience and so members of talk shows and bigger named blogs that ought to know better. How's that?

Like Fox News? They seem to be the only news organization that gives them a voice from time to time.

340 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:16:30pm

re: #335 ShanghaiEd

Hmmm. Somehow I don't think it's the lack of a spoon that's turning people off to the GOP's product. I think it's the smell.

No, everything we want and expect is right there, same as always, but there's no way for us to get it. That's the problem.

341 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:16:56pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

Honey-dipper.

342 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:04pm

re: #338 livefreeor die

Is that the latest mutant animal hosting the Palestian version of Barney?

PIMF
Palestian=Palestinian

343 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:10pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

"The New Guy"

344 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:12pm

re: #299 JacksonTn

gtrs ... and one other little thing ... I AM F*CKING SICK OF POLLS! ....

I think I can find a poll on how many are sick of polls, give me a second. :)

345 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:24pm

re: #316 Sharmuta

And how do you properly accessorize brimstone?


Eau de Sepulchre

346 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:30pm

re: #338 livefreeor die

Is that the latest mutant animal hosting the Palestian version of Barney?

Your crazy Jewish aunt on The Animaniacs. Loved it.

347 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:31pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

Joe or Mr. Biden

348 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:33pm
349 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:42pm

re: #331 Alouette

Vlaams Belang

BNP, pro-Koeln, David Duke...

350 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:49pm

re: #337 Capitalist Tool

I'm really disappointed in Debbie Schlussel. She started out as a reasonable person and now...
should have known the first time I ever heard that voice.

Debbie is a nice person, in spite of her online "Ann Coulter mini-me" character

351 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:49pm

avanti ... dude ... if anyone can do it you can ... LOL ...

352 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:17:58pm

re: #327 avanti

Thanks. I'm a terrible patient, I don't go to the doctor but under extreme duress and I self diagnose when I've got creepy crud fairly accurately. Luckily, Mr. Armywife is quite the paramedic with a best friend who happens to be a doctor, though he has cut me off in the "I have xyz and need a z-pak" as of late. That said, when I do drag my rear to the doctor they give me a...z-pak. I could have avoided wasting everyone's time.

Anyway, thank you for the kind words.

353 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:18:25pm

re: #317 Guanxi88

Who's on first?

Paradise...baseball

Youtube Video
354 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:18:49pm

re: #329 jorline

Hell of a shot!

Kobe..As much as I despise him..Has such a high Basketball IQ..He called out the high screens they need to take out in the 2nd half..Kobe is a freaking stud..I sure hope the Lakers lose..Please! LOL

355 albusteve  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:18:50pm

re: #339 Gus 802

Like Fox News? They seem to be the only news organization that gives them a voice from time to time.

FOX is in the tank...too much money at stake

356 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:19:03pm

re: #17 freedomplow

GOP Losses Span Nearly All Demographic Groups BUT Now Tied With Dems In Party Identification.

What gives?

These are just plots in time, it could turn right back around next month. It seems like Republicans lately have to be paranoid about something or the other on any given day. Here's a chart that is a nightmare if you think about it longer than a minute.

357 Salamantis  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:19:20pm

I was wrong; world population in 8000 BCE was closer to 5 million:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

358 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:19:24pm

re: #350 Alouette

Debbie is a nice person, in spite of her online "Ann Coulter mini-me" character

I had an email correspondence going with her a little while back on an issue, and she was very nice. I tipped her off to something, and she was very appreciative. She even called me "Sharm".

359 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:19:35pm

re: #341 Guanxi88

Honey-dipper.

And the truck that empties the airplanes is the Honey Wagon. Ewww....

360 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:20:04pm

re: #359 austin_blue

And the truck that empties the airplanes is the Honey Wagon. Ewww....

Gotta love the power of euphemism to make the unpleasant ghastly.

362 JacksonTn  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:20:18pm

Gotta get up early ... one albusteve posted before ... but deserves another round ...

Youtube Video

good night ya'll ... thanks for the read and music ... oh, and polls ...

363 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:20:26pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

chamber pot hauler outer?

364 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:21:15pm

re: #338 livefreeor die

Is that the latest mutant animal hosting the Palestian version of Barney?

No, .

Youtube Video
365 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:21:39pm

re: #363 The Shadow Do

chamber pot hauler outer?

Piss Boy?

Youtube Video
366 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:21:48pm

re: #348 Iron Fist

Care to elaborate?

I made myself listen to her during an interview and tried to rationalize the effect of her voice as just some personal prejudice of mine which I needed to overcome. Her voice was exceedingly rancorous to me.

367 gearhead  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:21:59pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

Minority Whip?

"Your Highness! You look look like the piss boy!"

368 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:22:10pm

re: #367 gearhead

Minority Whip?

"Your Highness! You look look like the piss boy!"

GMTA!

369 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:22:59pm

re: #361 Ojoe

I click on these images as often as I see you post them, so I should probably already know this, but do you live/work there or did you just find and like the webcam view?
Not important, I'm just curious.

370 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:23:02pm

re: #354 HoosierHoops

Kobe..As much as I despise him..Has such a high Basketball IQ..He called out the high screens they need to take out in the 2nd half..Kobe is a freaking stud..I sure hope the Lakers lose..Please! LOL

Laker must lose. Nuggets have better tats. End of story.

Lakers. Bah!

371 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:23:50pm

Lakers, Baby!

372 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:24:04pm

re: #358 Sharmuta

I had an email correspondence going with her a little while back on an issue, and she was very nice. I tipped her off to something, and she was very appreciative. She even called me "Sharm".

Roger that. I'll "strike" my previous comment until I hear otherwise. There's just been so many sharks in the waters and a lot of jumping going on.

373 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:24:11pm

re: #358 Sharmuta

I had an email correspondence going with her a little while back on an issue, and she was very nice. I tipped her off to something, and she was very appreciative. She even called me "Sharm".

Wow! That's like Michael Steele calling you 'Ho!
////////////////////////

(and ducks)

374 gearhead  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:24:14pm

re: #368 Guanxi88

GMTA!

I would have beaten you to it, but my connection is JACKED UP!

(Long live Mel Brooks!)

375 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:25:01pm
376 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:25:28pm

re: #371 Racer X

Yer just beggin' for that down-ding, aren't ya'?

377 Ojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:25:29pm

re: #369 Lincolntf

I grew up in the San Gabriel Valley & hiked a lot in the San Gabriels. Now I live in Northern California, but I have my browser set to the Towercam as default opener, so I can spy on my old stomping grounds.

378 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:25:50pm

re: #352 ArmyWife

Thanks. I'm a terrible patient, I don't go to the doctor but under extreme duress and I self diagnose when I've got creepy crud fairly accurately.


Me too ! I once woke up with half my face paralyzed and got on the internet and decided I had Bell's palsy. Called my Doctor and he read me the riot act and told me to come right in to his office. Sat me on the table, checked me over, and said "You have Bell's palsy and probably know it'll go away on it's own."

379 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:26:07pm

re: #202 Charles

Meanwhile, Pamela Geller is now viciously attacking one of the only pro-democracy, anti-Islamist Muslims in the US willing to speak out, Zuhdi Jasser:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

If you need any more evidence that pure bigotry is driving Geller and her pals, here it is.

The most radical will always attack the moderates more vociferously than their real enemies. If there's an alternative they become irrelevant.

380 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:26:22pm

re: #371 Racer X

Lakers, Baby!

Well..I'm a NorCal Boy..Hate the Lakers..
But crap..That was an athletic first half..Kobe was...uh ho..Let's not encourage him...
I still like Denver...

381 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:26:38pm

re: #372 Gus 802

I don't read her blog enough to know much else about her, other than I agree with Alouette that she's nice. She was with me, anyways.

382 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:26:49pm

re: #377 Ojoe

I like it. Thanks for posting the view.

383 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:27:18pm

REDWINGS WIN! 3-2

384 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:27:20pm

OVERTIME WIN FOR THE RED WINGS!

385 Ojoe  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:27:34pm

re: #382 Lincolntf

You are welcome.

BBL

386 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:27:39pm

re: #375 Iron Fist

That's not so bad. She's the one that sounds like Fran Dresherwith a head cold, isn't she? I was afraid you were gong to say she'd thrown in with the Nazis.

rancorous was the wrong term... you are close in your description, but I'm really not getting what she's up to lately. Didn't wanna go as far as sayin' she's thrown in with...

387 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:28:08pm
388 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:28:25pm

Detroit Redwings win it in overtime...

389 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:28:38pm

buenos snowshoes

390 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:28:46pm

re: #379 Thanos

I fought my way through her entry. I'm glad she's discovered spell checking, but she still lacks logic and coherence.

391 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:30:59pm

re: #336 jcm

What do they call the guy who hauls out the chamber pots?

Le garçon de piss

392 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:31:43pm

re: #389 Capitalist Tool

buenos snowshoes

Mucous garcias.

393 SteveC  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:31:52pm

good evening, everyone!

referring to the SC GOP thread - My God, what have we done?

And our local news media isn't covering it at all, so no one who might stand up and say "Now just wait a minute!" doesn't even know what's going on.

394 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:32:32pm

I think the GOP need's more Gregg Gutfelds (although he is a libertarian)

395 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:32:43pm

re: #393 SteveC

good evening, everyone!

referring to the SC GOP thread - My God, what have we done?

Bridge on the River Kwai, or Once in a Lifetime?

396 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:32:52pm

re: #291 J.S.ROOTING FOR WHICH TEAM? just curious

397 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:32:55pm

Maybe I'll just ship a copy of The Conscience of a Conservative to Mr Steele.

398 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:33:01pm

OH NO
The Clippers got the first pick in the NBA draft.. That means Blake Griffen will be the first pick with the wort team and coach in the NBA..I feel sorry for Blake..3 years from now somebody will rescue him from the curb drinking cheap wine screaming I could have been somebody! Poor Blake

399 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:33:19pm

re: #388 J.S.
yep; good game

400 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:33:28pm

Greg

401 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:33:42pm
402 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:34:20pm

re: #394 FrogMarch

I think the GOP need's more Gregg Gutfelds (although he is a libertarian)

I find myself reading Reason more and more.

403 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:34:31pm

re: #398 HoosierHoops
AND playing for the single worst franchise AND owner in any major sport(poor blake)

404 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:34:53pm

re: #397 Sharmuta

Maybe I'll just ship a copy of The Conscience of a Conservative to Mr Steele.

and throw in a copy of Liberty and Tyranny as an apertif.

405 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:35:00pm
406 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:35:38pm

re: #378 avanti

There may be hope for you yet. ;)

407 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:35:44pm

re: #404 Capitalist Tool
michael steele read? you are going to need the illustrated versions.................

408 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:35:55pm

re: #398 HoosierHoops

I was so hoping that OKC would get the number one pick. I'm pretty sure that I've NEVER seen "The Thunder" play on TV.
Plus, he'd a been (kinda) a hometown boy.

409 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:36:23pm

Just found out that some budding writer whom I published loooooong ago (and who an asshole to me) is now and has been for years a world-famous science fiction writer. Huh. I still remember him as a jerk who though he deserved special editorial treatment, even though at the time he was unpublished. I just stumbled across a book of his that just came out, and on the back flap it details his long and stellar career -- which began exactly one year after I got him started. Apparently he's world famous! And I never knew, because I don't follow science fiction.

Ain't life strange?

410 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:36:43pm
411 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:37:02pm

though he deserved = thought he deserved

412 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:37:08pm

re: #408 Lincolntf

I was so hoping that OKC would get the number one pick. I'm pretty sure that I've NEVER seen "The Thunder" play on TV.
Plus, he'd a been (kinda) a hometown boy.


You give the Thunder a young center that can grow with the rest of that young team and look out in a couple of years.

413 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:37:09pm

re: #404 Capitalist Tool

NO

414 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:37:18pm

re: #409 zombie

Just found out that some budding writer whom I published loooooong ago (and who an asshole to me) is now and has been for years a world-famous science fiction writer. Huh. I still remember him as a jerk who though he deserved special editorial treatment, even though at the time he was unpublished. I just stumbled across a book of his that just came out, and on the back flap it details his long and stellar career -- which began exactly one year after I got him started. Apparently he's world famous! And I never knew, because I don't follow science fiction.

Ain't life strange?

Ooh! Please, provide any guidance you might have for one seeking to break into literature.

415 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:37:56pm

re: #398 HoosierHoops

OH NO
The Clippers got the first pick in the NBA draft.. That means Blake Griffen will be the first pick with the wort team and coach in the NBA..I feel sorry for Blake..3 years from now somebody will rescue him from the curb drinking cheap wine screaming I could have been somebody! Poor Blake

Man, are you ever right about that. The Clips will set him back a few years, but he will get there!

416 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:10pm

re: #409 zombie

Hint, please? Please?

417 SteveC  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:24pm

OT - This is the synopsis of the movie scheduled for my flight:

A young girl discovers her father has an amazing talent to bring characters out of their books and must try to stop a freed villain from destroying them all, with the help of her father, her aunt, and a storybook's hero.

Noooo, the stupid, it burns! Airport bookstore, here I come!

418 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:25pm

re: #414 Guanxi88

Ooh! Please, provide any guidance you might have for one seeking to break into literature.

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

419 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:33pm

bbl

420 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:38:51pm

re: #409 zombie

and the world is very, very small.

On this esoteric note, I bid everyone adieu. I'm off to bed, I'm going back to work tomorrow at ye olde chemical plant.

421 SteveC  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:39:16pm

re: #414 Guanxi88

Ooh! Please, provide any guidance you might have for one seeking to break into literature.

Write! That's a good start! :)

422 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:39:39pm

re: #418 zombie

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

Okay, I've done that. Now what?

423 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:39:39pm

re: #403 gtrs

AND playing for the single worst franchise AND owner in any major sport(poor blake)

You do realize that if LGF bought an NBA Team and we fought over everything?
Even Sharm would put down our point guard and Steve would diss our center?
We would still beat the Clippers straight up...scary isn't it?

424 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:39:46pm

re: #418 zombie

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

You've described most actors and authors.

425 lawhawk  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:39:53pm

re: #418 zombie

Or get to know you better?

426 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:03pm

re: #420 ArmyWife

Don't take any shit from Smithers.

427 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:03pm

re: #421 SteveC

I will add this: write well!

428 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:13pm

re: #409 zombie

Just found out that some budding writer whom I published loooooong ago (and who an asshole to me) is now and has been for years a world-famous science fiction writer. Huh. I still remember him as a jerk who though he deserved special editorial treatment, even though at the time he was unpublished. I just stumbled across a book of his that just came out, and on the back flap it details his long and stellar career -- which began exactly one year after I got him started. Apparently he's world famous! And I never knew, because I don't follow science fiction.

Ain't life strange?

Neal Stephenson?

429 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:15pm

re: #416 Cato the Elder

Hint, please? Please?

Well, y'know, I jealously guard my identity, so even if I gave a vague hint, you might be able to trace his career and thereby guess my age, which is a clue to who I am, so...sorry. I will say one hint only, and that's it: cyberpunk.

430 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:30pm

re: #417 SteveC

OT - This is the synopsis of the movie scheduled for my flight:

Noooo, the stupid, it burns! Airport bookstore, here I come!

Dumbest airplane movie I ever watched: The Invaders, zombie flick with Nicole Kidman. Although it did have one good scene, in which Kidman is trying to escape by car, and the zombies all pile on top of the car as she drives away.

431 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:31pm

re: #409 zombie

ZOMBIE:

There's a fellow registered here who posts under the nic AndyMacOP.
He was ordained a Catholic priest on May 10th.
Here is something he had on his blog that you might get a kick out of -
I Thought Nothing Could go Wrong with my Ordination

432 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:43pm

re: #426 Lincolntf

I think I am Smithers. eek.

433 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:46pm

re: #427 ArmyWife

I will add this: write well!

I don't see much evidence to suggest this is a requirement; indeed, bland, predictable stuff seems to be just what the market wants.

434 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:51pm

re: #418 zombie

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

I've known a lot of those, but none of them published crap. :)

435 FrogMarch  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:40:59pm

re: #402 Sharmuta

I find myself reading Reason more and more.


Me too. & The Reason TV web segments are a wonderful addition.

436 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:41:35pm

Meanwhile, over at Hal Turner's vile site, people are commenting in the usual "I ain't descended from no damn monkey" vein.

One of them says:

I knew a kid who saw a picture of Sarah Palin and Palin was saying that God created us and assuring her that our ancestors were created by God.... Then she saw a picture of Michelle Obama who was saying that monkeys had evolved into humans and the theory of evolution was correct. So the kid asked his gramdpa [sic] who was right? Gramps said "well, they're both right... it's just that Sarah Palin was talking about her ancestors and Michelle Obama was talking about her ancestors."

These are the people the GOP would have us cozy up to - for the votes.

437 ArmyWife  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:05pm

re: #426 Lincolntf

re: #432 ArmyWife

Stop the trolley! Smithers is in nukes. I do chemicals. It's all good!

438 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:11pm

re: #413 Sharmuta

NO

NO?

439 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:25pm

re: #423 HoosierHoopsyep

440 garden18  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:31pm

I have to say I got scared watching Glenn Beck last night. Is he a libertarian?
He had an open anti-Semite on his show, someone who said wiping Israel off the map was of no consequence, and Beck praised him for his honesty. I just crossed Fox news, becoming as creepy as MSNBC, off my list.

441 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:44pm

re: #396 gtrs

Well, all the Canadian teams have been eliminated...(Vancouver looked good, up until a while ago..) so..I'm thinking it'll be Detroit to take the Stanley Cup...

442 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:42:56pm

re: #437 ArmyWife

Technically true, but every company has a Smithers.

443 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:01pm

re: #414 Guanxi88

Ooh! Please, provide any guidance you might have for one seeking to break into literature.

Finish the damn book.

444 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:02pm

re: #429 zombie

Well, y'know, I jealously guard my identity, so even if I gave a vague hint, you might be able to trace his career and thereby guess my age, which is a clue to who I am, so...sorry. I will say one hint only, and that's it: cyberpunk.

Hmm - I thought of that problem right after I posted, and wouldn't want you to go any further than that.

Cyberbunk, eh? ;^)

445 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:21pm

re: #423 HoosierHoops

You do realize that if LGF bought an NBA Team and we fought over everything?
Even Sharm would put down our point guard and Steve would diss our center?
We would still beat the Clippers straight up...scary isn't it?

I think we would be a very white, very slow, poor rebounding team. But we sure would play hard!

446 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:34pm

re: #442 Lincolntf

Technically true, but every company has a Smithers.

Yes, but do they have a Waylon Smithers?

447 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:35pm

re: #438 Capitalist Tool

That's right- NO.

I'm not interested in making mr levin rich. I'm interested in Mr Steele reading the words of the Father of Conservatism.

Frankly- mr levin should sent a copy too. AND mr limbaugh.

448 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:55pm

re: #422 Guanxi88

Okay, I've done that. Now what?

Books are a dying art form -- except for genre fiction. If you have any fantasies about writing books, fuggedaboutit -- unless you want to write mysteries, romances, sci-fi, erotica, teen, etc. There's a still a market for those. The rest is a lost cause, financially.

What "kind" of writer do you want to be? Fiction? Nonfiction? Literary? Mass market? Academic? Etc.?

449 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:43:56pm

re: #440 garden18

I have to say I got scared watching Glenn Beck last night. Is he a libertarian?
He had an open anti-Semite on his show, someone who said wiping Israel off the map was of no consequence, and Beck praised him for his honesty. I just crossed Fox news, becoming as creepy as MSNBC, off my list.

REALLY?!

450 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:07pm

re: #418 zombie

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

Hmmm...does his name rhyme with Drahm Bemmanuel?

451 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:10pm

re: #436 Cato the Elder

Meanwhile, over at Hal Turner's vile site, people are commenting in the usual "I ain't descended from no damn monkey" vein.

One of them says:


These are the people the GOP would have us cozy up to - for the votes.

Wow. Blatant racism.

452 SteveC  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:14pm

Somebody get me a ticket to Hawaii. At least then they'll show Quantum of Solace.

/Maybe I should go find out the troof about that Nirth Cirtificat! There's gotta be a nutball organization that would foot the bill.

453 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:38pm

re: #427 ArmyWife

I will add this: write well!

Evidently, this is not a requirement.

454 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:40pm

re: #425 lawhawk

Or get to know you better?

Won't do you much good, I'm afraid. My powers are limited. I'm in a different "place" now.

455 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:47pm

re: #409 zombie

Just found out that some budding writer whom I published loooooong ago (and who an asshole to me) is now and has been for years a world-famous science fiction writer. Huh. I still remember him as a jerk who though he deserved special editorial treatment, even though at the time he was unpublished. I just stumbled across a book of his that just came out, and on the back flap it details his long and stellar career -- which began exactly one year after I got him started. Apparently he's world famous! And I never knew, because I don't follow science fiction.

Ain't life strange?

You said a*hole and all I could think of was Harlan Ellison.

456 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:44:51pm

re: #440 garden18

You have got to be kidding...(Beck is a Ron Paulian, imo).

457 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:06pm

re: #428 austin_blue

Neal Stephenson?

Nope. Not that famous.

458 Lincolntf  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:21pm

re: #445 The Shadow Do

I could be our Steve Nash (without the shot or the 'do, of course).
I can leave skin on the floor like nobody's bidness.

459 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:43pm

re: #440 garden18

OMG- here's the video. I think I'm going to be ill

Youtube Video

Fuck fox news.

460 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:55pm

re: #431 reine.de.tout

ZOMBIE:

There's a fellow registered here who posts under the nic AndyMacOP.
He was ordained a Catholic priest on May 10th.
Here is something he had on his blog that you might get a kick out of -
I Thought Nothing Could go Wrong with my Ordination

Crazy! Hahahaha.

461 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:56pm

re: #418 zombie

Apparently, the secret is: Be an over-sensitive demanding asshole! Worked for that guy.

All SF writers are oversensitive demanding assholes. They take lessons from Harlan Ellison.

462 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:45:59pm

re: #433 Guanxi88

I don't see much evidence to suggest this is a requirement; indeed, bland, predictable stuff seems to be just what the market wants.

*Flinch*

I'm dead, then.

463 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:46:49pm

re: #443 Dianna

Finish the damn book.

Then write another one. And another. And another...

464 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:04pm

re: #458 Lincolntf

I could be our Steve Nash (without the shot or the 'do, of course).
I can leave skin on the floor like nobody's bidness.

I am a walking talking foul machine.

465 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:08pm

re: #405 metronil

been awhile since ive logged in, what happened to all the people? how long has it been like slow like this?

Excuse me, but your comment is number 405 in this thread. You think that's "slow?"

What's your purpose for posting that?

466 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:14pm

re: #433 Guanxi88

I don't see much evidence to suggest this is a requirement; indeed, bland, predictable stuff seems to be just what the market wants.

Agreed.

Teen lesbian vampire romance. GUARANTEED to get published.

467 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:27pm

re: #444 Cato the Elder

Hmm - I thought of that problem right after I posted, and wouldn't want you to go any further than that.

Cyberbunk, eh? ;^)

Yeah, I've got a few guesses.

468 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:32pm

re: #461 Thanos

All SF writers are oversensitive demanding assholes. They take lessons from Harlan Ellison.

hahahaaaaah!

469 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:33pm

re: #448 zombie

Books are a dying art form -- except for genre fiction. If you have any fantasies about writing books, fuggedaboutit -- unless you want to write mysteries, romances, sci-fi, erotica, teen, etc. There's a still a market for those. The rest is a lost cause, financially.

What "kind" of writer do you want to be? Fiction? Nonfiction? Literary? Mass market? Academic? Etc.?

Writer for hire; hackwriter; I've got bills, Mr. Zombie, and the one thing I can do (well) is to write. So, in a sense, I guess even ghosting, but, left to my own devices (and aren't we all?) I'd come down on the side of commentary and such. I do good solid work interpreting Aristotle and Scripture, but I hear the pay for that is kinda lousy.

Still, I've got more hunger than scruples, and would gladly ghost anything that is not obviously illegal. No scruples, if that's what the position requires.

All arts, all sciences, a starving Greek knows,
Bid him got to Hell, to Hell he goes.

Strictly from hunger.

470 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:47pm

More freaking perverted weirdness in Pakistan

Liveleak Video
471 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:47:51pm

re: #463 Alouette

Then write another one. And another. And another...

That's the usual way.

472 Altermite  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:48:47pm

I was about to guess Tad Williams, but I doubt it.

473 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:48:47pm

re: #455 Capitalist Tool

You said a*hole and all I could think of was Harlan Ellison.

That's almost out of date, but I remember the 80's!

474 livefreeor die  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:49:06pm

re: #466 zombie

Agreed.

Teen lesbian vampire romance. GUARANTEED to get published.

Especially if it has pictures.

475 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:49:25pm

re: #461 Thanos

All SF writers are oversensitive demanding assholes. They take lessons from Harlan Ellison.

That's funny, but untrue.

476 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:04pm

re: #469 Guanxi88

I'd get into script writing. Rich content is in more demand than print content

477 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:06pm

re: #455 Capitalist Tool

You said a*hole and all I could think of was Harlan Ellison.

I'm not that old.

Though I once did meet Harlan Ellison, and -- bingo -- he was a total jerkwad in person.

478 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:27pm

re: #473 Dianna

That's almost out of date, but I remember the 80's!

Harlan was a cranky old coot even in the 60's when he was writing for TV.

479 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:32pm

second part of beck show

Youtube Video
480 Tarkus289  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:39pm

re: #470 Alouette

I feel so sorry for all the children in all of those countries.

481 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:41pm

re: #475 Dianna

That's funny, but untrue.

Yes, I've met a few, they aren't all like that...

482 Digital Display  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:52pm

re: #445 The Shadow Do

I think we would be a very white, very slow, poor rebounding team. But we sure would play hard!

LOL
I heard white men can't jump...Really I heard that..
/seriously Bird played forward like few men in history..Color doesn't come into play...He played the game

483 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:50:57pm

re: #472 Altermite

I was about to guess Tad Williams, but I doubt it.

Fantasy writer, not cyberpunk.

484 Guanxi88  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:51:15pm

re: #476 Thanos

I'd get into script writing. Rich content is in more demand than print content

You script - do you mean to say for tele-plays and such, or do you mean some sort of interwebs thing?

485 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:51:30pm

re: #457 zombie

Nope. Not that famous.

Ah. You got Cory's first ms, didn't you? He's mellowed, but he's still....ummmm...a legend in his own mind.

486 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:51:42pm
487 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:52:13pm

re: #483 Dianna

Fantasy writer, not cyberpunk.

William Gibson

488 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:52:13pm

re: #405 metronil

Never mind. After reviewing your past comments, you're out of here.

489 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:52:29pm

re: #473 Dianna

That's almost out of date, but I remember the 80's!

The 80's? what a Time Warp.

490 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:10pm

re: #484 Guanxi88

You script - do you mean to say for tele-plays and such, or do you mean some sort of interwebs thing?

I mean for movies and telivision. Hollywood is in dire need of people better than creative typists who know how to write a chase scene in.

491 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:12pm

re: #479 Sharmuta

This is a sick video.

492 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:21pm

re: #483 Dianna

Fantasy writer, not cyberpunk.

What are we talking about? I'm too lazy to scroll

493 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:25pm

re: #477 zombie

I'm not that old.

Though I once did meet Harlan Ellison, and -- bingo -- he was a total jerkwad in person.

He and Jerry Pournelle are the two most awful writers it's been my misfortune to encounter.

Bruce Sterling was - on one occasion - condescending and assumed my question and dismissed it. I told him - sharply - that he wasn't listening. I never bought another of his books after that, at least partially because of that, but mostly because he got boring.

494 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:35pm

For example:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

And another example:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

495 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:53:53pm

re: #482 HoosierHoops

LOL
I heard white men can't jump...Really I heard that..
/seriously Bird played forward like few men in history..Color doesn't come into play...He played the game

Yeah, he did. Could not jump for shit though. Did not matter. Larry played 3-D chess on the court while the others were still learning checkers.

496 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:54:37pm

re: #469 Guanxi88

OK, my suggestion if you want to be a ghost-writer is: Contact literary agents in New York City. Via email. Describe your skills and that you want to ghostwrite. The more published stuff you have to show you can do it, the better.

Agents sometimes get celebrity clients who can't write worth shit, and they'll turn to you -- if you're lucky.

And if any agent gets back to you, but still says "No," pump them for leads and information -- also to an esoteric profession called "book packagers," who often need ghostwriters.

497 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:54:46pm

re: #478 FurryOldGuyJeans

Harlan was a cranky old coot even in the 60's when he was writing for TV.

His two books of television criticism are classics : The Glass Teat and The Other Glass Teat.

498 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:54:54pm

re: #487 FurryOldGuyJeans

William Gibson

He's iconic, yes...and the mighty truly have fallen. But I'm not going to speculate too much.

499 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:55:09pm

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

500 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:55:12pm

re: #493 Dianna

He and Jerry Pournelle are the two most awful writers it's been my misfortune to encounter.

Bruce Sterling was - on one occasion - condescending and assumed my question and dismissed it. I told him - sharply - that he wasn't listening. I never bought another of his books after that, at least partially because of that, but mostly because he got boring.

I met Bradbury and Jordan, those were the only authors I ever met.

501 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:55:38pm

re: #492 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

What are we talking about? I'm too lazy to scroll

Speculating - futilely - on which cyberpunk writer zombie was responsible for launching.

502 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:56:29pm

re: #499 Charles Good job.

503 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:56:32pm

re: #499 Charles

Yaaay Nukes! Rip off of Red stripe Beer Commercial.

504 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:56:38pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

Stinky's finger hovers over the enter key.....

rm -r

505 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:56:58pm

re: #501 Dianna

Speculating - futilely - on which cyberpunk writer zombie was responsible for launching.

Ah, used to be into that genre, long ago. Pretty good RPG by the same name back in the 90s as well.

506 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:57:16pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

INCOMING!

507 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:57:39pm

re: #499 Charles

Looks like a good idea for a mobyish sort

508 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:01pm

re: #506 The Shadow Do

INCOMING!

Youtube Video
509 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:01pm

Was Neal Stephenson mentioned for Zombie's writer?

510 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:04pm

re: #496 zombie

OK, my suggestion if you want to be a ghost-writer is: Contact literary agents in New York City. Via email. Describe your skills and that you want to ghostwrite. The more published stuff you have to show you can do it, the better.

Agents sometimes get celebrity clients who can't write worth shit, and they'll turn to you -- if you're lucky.

And if any agent gets back to you, but still says "No," pump them for leads and information -- also to an esoteric profession called "book packagers," who often need ghostwriters.

And never, ever forget that most "romance" writers are anonymous stables. It pays, they give you the outline, and you don't have to work very hard at it. But you do have to work fast.

511 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:21pm

Y'all know if the GOP does continue on this creationist, ID path they will be a footnote in American politics.

512 garden18  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:21pm

re: #459 Sharmuta

Here's the clip of Michael Scheuer, a former CIA bigwig and unapologetic anti-Semite. It makes you wonder about the direction of our intelligence operations where Israel and the Arabs are concerned.

513 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:45pm

If 'metronil' thinks it's so slow here- they're free to wait for comments at pamela's. I think one thread is up to 4.

514 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:52pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

Man, I'm afraid to click the link. I've never watched a man fuck a goat, and I think I can go the rest of my life without, and my life would be a richer place for it.

Ugh.

It's a marriage ceremony for a 9-year-old girl and a dog. SFW.

515 zombie  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:58:57pm

Gotta run. Sorry, can't answer any further questions past comment #469!

516 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:02pm

re: #474 livefreeor die

Especially if it has pictures.

Oh...the new Girl Scout material.
//

517 SteveC  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:07pm

re: #488 Charles

Never mind. After reviewing your past comments, you're out of here.

"Sharp hit to center field, it will drop. He's rounding first, going to try to stretch it into a double. Johnson up with it, and here's the throw. Dead on target, here's the play.... and he's out from me to you! I tell ya, Charles Johnson has one hell of an arm out there in center field, but they never learn. The runners keep challenging him and he nails them every time!"

518 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:12pm

Done.

Bye now, 'metronil'.

519 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:23pm

re: #496 zombie

OK, my suggestion if you want to be a ghost-writer is: Contact literary agents in New York City. Via email. Describe your skills and that you want to ghostwrite. The more published stuff you have to show you can do it, the better.

Agents sometimes get celebrity clients who can't write worth shit, and they'll turn to you -- if you're lucky.

And if any agent gets back to you, but still says "No," pump them for leads and information -- also to an esoteric profession called "book packagers," who often need ghostwriters.

What if you want to be a particularly bad writer who gets huge advances? Or if you want to be a writer who can't be troubled to write, finally gets around to it, and find yourself being POTUS?

How do I get one of those deals?

/
William Gibson?

520 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:38pm
521 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:50pm

re: #491 Sharmuta

This is a sick video.

Looks like Glenn Beck has had Michael Scheuer as a guest before.

Also: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

522 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:52pm

re: #513 Sharmuta
Just screamin' along over there!

523 austin_blue  Tue, May 19, 2009 7:59:58pm

re: #493 Dianna

He and Jerry Pournelle are the two most awful writers it's been my misfortune to encounter.

Bruce Sterling was - on one occasion - condescending and assumed my question and dismissed it. I told him - sharply - that he wasn't listening. I never bought another of his books after that, at least partially because of that, but mostly because he got boring.

Hey, I got to stick up for my homeboy Bruce. An old friend. He is just horribly uncomfortable in public and a sweetheart one on one. You just have to understand that when he goes off on a tangent he's just not in the room anymore.

524 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:00:44pm
525 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:00:48pm

re: #509 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Was Neal Stephenson mentioned for Zombie's writer?

Reply was, "not that famous!"

526 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:08pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

Purify the blog by subjecting those comments to Lizardoid hellfire.

/ Translation for any creationist lurkers that didn't understand what Charles just announced.

527 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:13pm

re: #518 Charles

Done.

Bye now, 'metronil'.

WOOMP!

528 KingKenrod  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:14pm

re: #491 Sharmuta

This is a sick video.

Michael Scheuer has been a go-to guy for WoT segments on all the news networks for years. I've only recently found out he leans hard to the Ron Paul anti-semite side of the spectrum.

529 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:37pm

re: #519 karmic_inquisitor

What if you want to be a particularly bad writer who gets huge advances? Or if you want to be a writer who can't be troubled to write, finally gets around to it, and find yourself being POTUS?

How do I get one of those deals?

/
William Gibson?

Write political non fiction pot boilers.

530 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:44pm

re: #188 buzzsawmonkey

What a flippin' slippered pantaloon.

531 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:50pm

re: #523 austin_blue

Hey, I got to stick up for my homeboy Bruce. An old friend. He is just horribly uncomfortable in public and a sweetheart one on one. You just have to understand that when he goes off on a tangent he's just not in the room anymore.

That's all right. He was rude to me. I haven't forgotten.

And his books have become unreadable. Usually, that only happens with the physicists.

532 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:01:50pm

re: #528 KingKenrod

Michael Scheuer has been a go-to guy for WoT segments on all the news networks for years. I've only recently found out he leans hard to the Ron Paul anti-semite side of the spectrum.

Pretty disgusting. I'm glad he's out of the CIA.

533 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:02:18pm

"Michael Scheuer" site:glennbeck.com search.

534 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:02:59pm

re: #497 Thanos

His two books of television criticism are classics : The Glass Teat and The Other Glass Teat.

For sheer over-the-top Ellison spleen, his "The City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay that Became the Classic Star Trek Episode" is a must read.

535 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:03:26pm

re: #529 Thanos

Write political non fiction pot boilers.

Call yourself Ann Coulter.
No wait...

536 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:03:31pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

Hold onto your seat lizards...the next jolt you feel isn't a quake...just Charles cleaning house.

Danger...Hard Hat Area

537 Tarkus289  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:03:54pm

I have seen and heard Michael Scheuer many times, sometimes he makes a few good points, but depending on which show he is on, he could really be a jerk. Usually is.

538 J.S.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:03:58pm

re: #512 garden18

Yeah, gosh, I wonder how come the CIA never ever found Osama when an antisemite pacifist nut case was heading up the unit...

///

539 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:04:35pm

re: #499 Charles

I'm about to do a mass nuke of every comment posted by 'metronil', by the way.

Won't be many to nuke, but the trash does need to be be put out.

540 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:05:41pm

'metronil', by the way, was referred here by a link at Atlas Shrugs. Imagine my surprise.

541 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:05:52pm

re: #518 Charles

Done.

Bye now, 'metronil'.

Kind of like the "flashy thing" in "Men In Black".

542 neocon hippie  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:05:56pm

I don't understand why the LA Clippers even exist. How much of a market can a mediocre team have in the same city as the Lakers?

543 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:05:58pm

Zombie,

The last cyberpunk I read was Neal Stephenson's "The Diamond Age: or A Young Lady's Illustrated Primer." It was pretty good, even though I only read it for a translation job I was doing at the time.

I'm going to have to look into the genre again, just for yuks. I remember reading Delany's Dhalgren when I was much younger and thinking it was pretty wack. Apparently he was cyberpunk before the term existed.

544 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:06:21pm

re: #534 FurryOldGuyJeans

For sheer over-the-top Ellison spleen, his "The City on the Edge of Forever: The Original Teleplay that Became the Classic Star Trek Episode" is a must read.

Yes, that was pretty good. I liked The New York Review of Bird better. All that pent up writer angst against the publishing industry coming out.

545 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:06:34pm

Here's the page it came from:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

546 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:06:34pm

"Michael Scheuer" site:foxnews.com search.

547 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:07:08pm

re: #545 Charles

How nice.

548 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:07:21pm

bbl

549 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:08:01pm

I wonder if 'metronil' is aware that pamela is in bed with CAIR....

550 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:08:09pm

re: #545 Charles

Here's the page it came from:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

Please tell me I don't have to go diving in the cesspool. I took a shower just a few hours ago.

551 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:08:19pm

re: #543 Cato the Elder

I am still waiting for someone to coherently explain Dahlgren to me. I've read it three times. Each time, I start out determined, and finish up confused.

It's one of the few books I've ever tried where, honestly, I could not tell you one single thing about it after I finished. I can't remember character names, incidents, or dialogue.

552 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:08:28pm

re: #546 Gus 802

"Michael Scheuer" site:foxnews.com search.

Is Scheuer the guy who let Bin Laden get away and then blamed it on everyone else?

553 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:08:52pm

re: #552 Thanos

Is Scheuer the guy who let Bin Laden get away and then blamed it on everyone else?

Don't know.

554 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:09:29pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

I wonder if 'metronil' is aware that pamela is in bed with CAIR....

Poor shit-slinging-monkey Hoopie.

555 FurryOldGuyJeans  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:09:31pm

re: #552 Thanos

Is Scheuer the guy who let Bin Laden get away and then blamed it on everyone else?

That was BJ Clinton.

556 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:09:51pm

re: #554 MandyManners

Poor shit-slinging-monkey Hoopie.

LMAO!

557 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:10:24pm

re: #544 Thanos

Yes, that was pretty good. I liked The New York Review of Bird better. All that pent up writer angst against the publishing industry coming out.

I think Ellison is a great writer, even if his personality makes me run madly in another direction until I pinball off something else and carom off in yet another direction still.

558 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:10:58pm

re: #554 MandyManners
Ahahaha! Mwahaha!

559 formercorpsman  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:11:07pm

re: #528 KingKenrod

Actually, a couple of years ago now, I was a caller on a Philadelphia talk radio station (morning drive) where he was a guest giving his professional opinion on that WoT.

I think he was pimping some book called Imperial Hubris.

The point I drove home, was given the fact Bin Laden was capable of accomplishing 911, and many of the other incidents prior to, should I at least question his assertions of what needed to be done on the Bush watch since he lacked success when it was his job.

My question was never answered.

560 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:11:27pm

re: #533 Gus 802

Steele: "Change will come in a Tea Bag".
These may be the "new ideas" that the GOP is going to endorse soon.

561 gtrs  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:12:49pm

re: #542 neocon hippiewith a decent team they would do just fine; the team sux, so no one really cares

562 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:12:50pm

re: #555 FurryOldGuyJeans
That is a for real damn fact.

563 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:03pm

re: #545 Charles

Here's the page it came from:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

There are more people claiming to have been blocked "for no reason" at various times than I recall actually being blocked. Also lots of people claiming they've asked to have their accounts cancelled. Why, I wonder? They could just forget they have one. Easy to do.

564 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:07pm

re: #560 Killgore Trout

Steele: "Change will come in a Tea Bag".
These may be the "new ideas" that the GOP is going to endorse soon.

I know what you mean. When I read "new ideas" and the "change will come in a tea bag" it made me think about the rising influx of the Paulians.

565 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:28pm

re: #551 Dianna

Did it have an albino acrobat in it? Or was that the Towers of Toron?

I've always liked Delany's shorter works the best, Empire Star/ Babel 17 is a paired novella for kids, but it's very deep. Based on The Charterhouse at Parma.

566 karmic_inquisitor  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:29pm

re: #545 Charles

Here's the page it came from:

[Link: atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com...]

She must read LGF obsessively. She used the whole "punk" thing after you used the term to describe Glenn Beck. A detail only found at the bottom of your post.

Does she read all of the comments too?

It would be cool if you could keep a "haters" counter just like the Canary Warf "Reuters" counter.

567 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:30pm

re: #549 Sharmuta

I wonder if 'metronil' is aware that pamela is in bed with CAIR....

His type is in the closet taking pictures.

568 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:13:41pm

re: #557 Dianna

I think Ellison is a great writer, even if his personality makes me run madly in another direction until I pinball off something else and carom off in yet another direction still.

Yes, he's a very creative writer and he did also help start the SF writing career of a fine fellow from a fine old Virginia family, Arthur Cover.


Ellison's still a punk.

569 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:14:43pm

re: #564 Gus 802

I know what you mean. When I read "new ideas" and the "change will come in a tea bag" it made me think about the rising influx of the Paulians.

At this rate, the new Republican Party Platform will end up being "Repent! The End is nie!"

570 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:14:55pm

hey guys!
Charles, nice troll nuking.

went to my daughters k-garden production of mother goose...
while we were waiting for the show to start two of the "adults"
got into a fucking fistfight. broken up quickly, hope none of the kids
saw it

what the hell is wrong with some people?

571 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:15:35pm

re: #569 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

At this rate, the new Republican Party Platform will end up being "Repent! The End is nie!"

Do we get to scream that out the window someday like "I'm mad as hell..."

//

572 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:15:38pm

/pimf at=of

573 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:15:58pm

re: #570 rain of lead

No frakkin' manners!

574 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:16:10pm

re: #568 Capitalist Tool

I should be clear - I never actually met him. I witnessed something unpleasant from a distance. He was haranguing some unfortunate who I think was a waiter. I turned and fled.

575 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:16:37pm

re: #571 Gus 802

Do we get to scream that out the window someday like "I'm mad as hell..."

//

No, but we'll get to dress in sack cloth and scourge ourselves for our sins

576 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:16:46pm

Alex Jones getting more and more popular -- recently expanded his operations:

Youtube Video
577 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:05pm

re: #574 Dianna

I should be clear - I never actually met him. I witnessed something unpleasant from a distance. He was haranguing some unfortunate who I think was a waiter. I turned and fled.


You can always tell the make of a man by how he treats the wait staff.

578 Canoe Train  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:20pm

re: #518 Charles
Like this:

Youtube Video

No more metronil

579 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:27pm

re: #575 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

No, but we'll get to dress in sack cloth and scourge ourselves for our sins

I've always wanted a chance to pour ashes on my head, wail and gnash my teeth while rending my garments.

/

580 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:29pm
Michael F. Scheuer is a former CIA employee. In his 22-year career, he served as the Chief of the Bin Laden Issue Station (aka "Alec Station"), from 1996 to 1999, the Osama bin Laden tracking unit at the Counterterrorist Center. He then worked again as Special Advisor to the Chief of the bin Laden unit from September 2001 to November 2004.

He's the guy who didn't get Bin Laden

581 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:41pm

re: #575 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Not me! I'll join the Druids and worship tress or some shit.

582 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:17:55pm

re: #573 pingjockey

uhh no
lack of manners is talking during the performance.
this was levels worse

583 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:18:02pm

re: #570 rain of lead

hey guys!
Charles, nice troll nuking.

went to my daughters k-garden production of mother goose...
while we were waiting for the show to start two of the "adults"
got into a fucking fistfight. broken up quickly, hope none of the kids
saw it

what the hell is wrong with some people?

Animated discussion over which came first, goose or egg?

584 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:18:19pm

re: #576 Charles

Nutball survivalism is big business. Look at Ruff.

585 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:18:21pm

re: #581 pingjockey

Not me! I'll join the Druids and worship tress or some shit.

I'll let down my hair in front of you, so you can have a proper object to worship, then.

586 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:18:35pm

re: #581 pingjockey

Not me! I'll join the Druids and worship tress or some shit.

Prell is the answer.

587 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:19:32pm

re: #581 pingjockey

Not me! I'll join the Druids and worship tress or some shit.

I just don't think you are the type.....

Youtube Video
588 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:19:34pm

re: #582 rain of lead
Forgot the tag. That kind of BS is unforgiveable.

589 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:19:45pm

re: #584 Thanos

Nutball survivalism is big business. Look at Ruff.

It always has been. People get rich off it; they publish small ads in the backs of magazines, and an astonishing number of people buy what they're selling.

590 formercorpsman  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:20:40pm

re: #576 Charles

I guess someone forgot to tell him that was the genetically modified water.

591 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:20:48pm

re: #584 Thanos

Nutball survivalism is big business. Look at Ruff.

Got a lot picked out in the mountains next to a National Park getting prepped for the end of the world- just in case the world doesn't end up there.

592 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:21:12pm

re: #583 jcm

Animated discussion over which came first, goose or egg?

yes

593 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:21:37pm

re: #579 Dianna

I've always wanted a chance to pour ashes on my head, wail and gnash my teeth while rending my garments.

/

Why wait?

I've decided to live under a simple philosophy. We come into the world, naked, screaming and covered in blood. Why should the fun stop there?

/

594 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:21:38pm

re: #587 jcm
Those ain't druds, theu're idiots. Maybe a big pot plant!
Lotsa silliness I know, but humor is all I've got right now. I have no idea where my party of RWR has went, other than around the bend.

595 ihateronpaul  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:21:46pm

re: #161 The Shadow Do

they listen to whoever screams the loudest. (freepers)

596 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:21:54pm

re: #576 Charles

Yes, he's had a fundraiser going lately. Judge Nepalitano is doing the same, he also has the Paulians pestering Fox to move him over to the main Fox chanel for a nightly show.

597 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:22:11pm

re: #583 jcm

Animated discussion over which came first, goose or egg?

Somebody goosed somebody's mother?

598 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:22:25pm

re: #581 pingjockey

Not me! I'll join the Druids and worship tress or some shit.

Funny, you don't look Druish. What kind of shit were you planning to worship?

599 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:22:47pm

Rainbow over Portland. Nice end to a pretty lousy day.

600 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:22:57pm

The thing about the nutballs is that once they buy into their own ideas and start getting heavy into the gold market they have to keep pimping the meme so they don't lose their shirts. There always has to be a crisis or their gold value goes down...

601 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:23:04pm

G'night folks. Watch out for stray fallout from the recent nuking.

602 pingjockey  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:23:41pm

re: #598 Kragar (proud to be kafir)
Maybe the stuff you put in a bong! Night.

603 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:24:17pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

Rainbow over Portland. Nice end to a pretty lousy day.

Thunder and lighting in Seattle....

604 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:24:19pm

re: #582 rain of lead

uhh no
lack of manners is talking during the performance.
this was levels worse

What was the fight about?

605 WindHorse  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:24:22pm

re: #570 rain of lead

yesterday in the hardware store, some compleat idjit decided he had to dress down some elderly woman working there as a cashier. It was unreal.

He, standing there with his 7-year old son.

The reason I didn't jump in and castrate him (at least emotionally) was that his son had such a look of pain in his eyes.... as if they were saying... "Dad, not again."

What is wrong with soome people?

606 garden18  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:24:42pm

re: #538 J.S.

good point

607 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:25:03pm

re: #593 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Why wait?

I've decided to live under a simple philosophy. We come into the world, naked, screaming and covered in blood. Why should the fun stop there?

/

You've been reading John Ringo, haven't you?!

608 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:25:24pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

{Killgore} Hope tomorrow is better.

609 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:25:40pm

re: #605 WindHorse

yesterday in the hardware store, some compleat idjit decided he had to dress down some elderly woman working there as a cashier. It was unreal.

He, standing there with his 7-year old son.

The reason I didn't jump in and castrate him (at least emotionally) was that his son had such a look of pain in his eyes.... as if they were saying... "Dad, not again."

What is wrong with soome people?

Maybe granny shoulda' bounced a wrench off his mouth.

610 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:26:23pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

Rainbow over Portland. Nice end to a pretty lousy day.

A rainbow? QUICK! Get inside before the chemicals taint you!

/

611 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:26:58pm

re: #610 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

A rainbow? QUICK! Get inside before the chemicals taint you!

/

Chemtrails!

612 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:28:10pm

re: #607 Dianna

You've been reading John Ringo, haven't you?!

Nope, never have

613 WindHorse  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:28:14pm

re: #609 MandyManners

after he left, I attempted to console her by saying "There are just some people in the world who refuse to be happy." (She was almost in tears... my sons said I should have grabbed the guy by the hair and dragged him out of the store - except for his son... they were in anguish over the poor little kid too....)

614 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:28:39pm

re: #570 rain of lead

Holy Shit!

Oh, I'm feigning surprise. Daughter works at Chuckie Cheese! Fistfights there all the time.

Kids. They stir up the darndest things!

615 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:28:49pm

re: #611 Capitalist Tool

Chemtrails!

Chemtrails are Dept. 743.
Chemrainbows are Dept. 547.

Youtube Video
616 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:29:07pm

re: #599 Killgore Trout

Rainbow over Portland. Nice end to a pretty lousy day.

Loves me some Killgore!

617 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:29:22pm

re: #604 MandyManners

What was the fight about?


don't know.
everyone was sitting, waiting for the production to start, then
people start jumping up and these two assholes are throwing punches.
they were both grabbed and restrained and hustled out.
I hope both of them fucking went to jail.

618 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:29:29pm

re: #612 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Nope, never have

That was something he might have written. If he didn't, he probably will say something similar. Soon.

619 Capitalist Tool  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:29:36pm

re: #613 WindHorse

after he left, I attempted to console her by saying "There are just some people in the world who refuse to be happy." (She was almost in tears... my sons said I should have grabbed the guy by the hair and dragged him out of the store - except for his son... they were in anguish over the poor little kid too....)

Not to worry. Karma will extract balance.

620 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:30:00pm

re: #607 Dianna

Didn't he do, "The No-No Song"?

621 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:30:49pm

re: #620 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Didn't he do, "The No-No Song"?

No, that was Ringo Starr.

Though, given John's personality, he'd probably enjoy doing it.

622 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:30:53pm

re: #618 Dianna

That was something he might have written. If he didn't, he probably will say something similar. Soon.

Read it somewhere about 15+ years ago, it just stuck with me

623 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:31:30pm

re: #622 Kragar (proud to be kafir)

Read it somewhere about 15+ years ago, it just stuck with me

I think I did, too, though i won't swear to it. It does sound familiar.

624 Irenicum  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:31:42pm

Busy night. Only read a few posts. Mostly liked what I saw. Need sleep. NOW. G'nite!

625 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:32:29pm

re: #551 Dianna

I am still waiting for someone to coherently explain Dahlgren to me. I've read it three times. Each time, I start out determined, and finish up confused.

It's one of the few books I've ever tried where, honestly, I could not tell you one single thing about it after I finished. I can't remember character names, incidents, or dialogue.

Well, I should have known you would be the one to have read it here. Honestly, I think we must go through parallel phases - Templars, cyberpunk, you name it and I've been there or the other way round.

But I read the darn thing in the original Bantam edition, 1975 or soon after publication, on the recommendation of my father, who's a sick bastard when it comes to books, and never picked it up since. There are a lot of details I remember (some of the sex was eye-opening in my quondam incarnation), but for the overall picture I'd have to go back for another look. At the time I put it up there with Pynchon et al., I was very into the literature of paranoia. When I first read V it was close to Christmastime and I bought something like twoscore copies and gave them to everyone indiscriminately. Such was my belief that my private obsessions must needs fascinate others, too. I doubt if even one of the recipients got past the first chapter in Norfolk. Benny profane, schlemiel and human yo-yo, gets to an apocheir. Indeed. Heigh-ho, halcyon days!

626 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:37:13pm
Yes, he's had a fundraiser going lately. Judge Nepalitano is doing the same, he also has the Paulians pestering Fox to move him over to the main Fox chanel for a nightly show.

Inbreeding in the media. I don't know the inside but it sure looks like FOX et all have a sort of retainer relationship with their 'guests'. I'd love to see some transparency there. I see all too often really incongruent interviews with hosts and 'guests'. I know it is the dough, but have no way to 'know' itre: #596 Killgore Trout

627 formercorpsman  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:16pm

re: #613 WindHorse

You know, that is a tough decision. I think you made the right choice though.

I have a friend who is (Indian) & owns a local convenience store. He is not a big guy, and most of the people at the register are girls 17-20 years old.

Had an asshole stop in one night while I was there getting gas, and then just hanging out eating an ice cream cone.

My friend was towards the back of the store, one of the girls on the register, and the jackass asked about a bathroom. (He does not have a public bathroom in the store) she told him that, he became animated in line, (he already asked this over 3 people in line before him) started questioning where she went to the bathroom, etc.

I sort of let him know, I did not think urinal cakes would taste too good, and he might want to check somewhere down the road for toilet services.

He left.

628 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:57:59pm
629 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:53pm

Evening y'all - hope everyone's doing well today. I've only quickly scanned the first 150 or so comments and I'm kind of astounded that so many LGFer's are ready to write an obituary for the GOP. I really am. Goodness, you'd almost not believe that the GOP, with McCain as it's Standard Bearer and the MSM in Obamas back pockets, didn't get 58 Million some odd votes last November and win 22 Sates.
For that matter, when Goldwater was beaten soundly by LBJ in 1964, I don't recall so much talk about how Republicans "had to come up with new ideas" Just HAD to. I remember Jimmy Carter getting trounced by Ronald Reagan. I mean TROUNCED (iirc, Carter won all of four states). And funny enough, I don't remember folks writing or preparing to write the obiturary for the Democratic Party back then. Indeed, I don't remember anyone saying "The Democrats have to come up with new Ideas". Which is actually a good thing, I suppose, because older that I am, and relatively short term memory problems that I do have, I don't remember the Democratic Party changing it's primary "ideas" since LBJ: More money for those on Welfare, more and better housing for poor people, Medicaid (passed while LBJ was POTUS) helped to provide free health care on an income/means basis - albeit set by the States, basically just throw money at whatever problems society faced (other people's money of course) and feel good about yourself. And as hard as I've tried, I can't think of one GOOD idea that's come out of the Democratic Party in a loooong time.
Yes, President Bush took us away from "fiscal responsibilty, but frankly Ronald Reagan spent a LOT more money (only on weapons and weapons systems and our Military in general) to help bring down the Soviet Empire and really helped kick off the love affair ALL politicians now seem to have to spend more money than we make.
Last week Moody's said the projected Deficit under our current One Party System of Government is apt to lead to a downgrade of U.S. Treasury Bonds to double A from Triple A and other folks are talking about making the Euro or the Yuan the base currency for international trade - hell President Obama's budget PROJECTS OVER ONE TRILLION, EIGHT HUNDRED BILLON dollars in deficit spending.
I think Republicans - with their belief in individual rights and responsibilities will ultimately win out. Especially when the Bush Tax Cuts lapse, when employers are no longer able to deduct cost of employee health care from their income taxes, when the social burdens (which can't be offset by cuts in defense spending alone) result in folks who make $80,000 or so a year having to pay more and more taxes.
Historically - except in time of Declared War - Americans have almost always voted with their pocketbooks and as unemployment and underemployment continue to rise, and indeed government income taxe revenues fall below those already projected, I think most of the voters Obama picked up in States that used to be Republican, will change. And change dramatically.
As for Congress, while I foolishy threw out my Rasmussen Daily Polls of likey voters, the last measure Rasmussen took showed "generic" Repubicans beating "generic" Democrats for Congressional seats for the first time in probably a decade or more.
This doesn't mean the GOP shouldn't reiterate it's core values over and over again, nor not come up with new ways to teach people that there is no such thing as a free lunch, but I think the prouncements of the death of the Republican Party are way premature, to say the least.

630 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:12pm

re: #629 realwest

Also, IIRC, didn't the poll CJ referenced at the beginning of this article mention that the GOP and DEMs are now tied with party affiliation?

And, it appears all but one of the props failed in CA, so the RINOs will be bumming over that. Which is good.

631 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:42pm

re: #187 directorblue

Someone's going to have to explain this to me:


I don't get the disconnect.

Still looking for a good explanation myself.
We have this...
re: #20 Altermite

Most of the people who have been dropping out of the GOP have been going independent- think fiscal conservatives and such who honestly couldn't join the democrats but no longer feel welcome in what was once their party.

Well that doesn't make much sense if you look at the independents in the poll.

re: #193 austin_blue

I think the hard left and the hard right are entrenching and the rest are galloping toward the middle in the way they identify themselves.

This doesn't make much sense either if you look at the poll.

re: #221 avanti

The Hot Air linked Gallup poll is party identification and is a "outer" according to Nate Silver. The more recent one, is how fast it's eroding in different demographics, mostly to the independents.

Here we have Nate Silver statistics... Who can be proven wrong for only counting most MSM reports of tea party attendance. Nate was obviously not looking into attendance that was not covered by the MSM.

re: #356 Thanos

These are just plots in time, it could turn right back around next month. It seems like Republicans lately have to be paranoid about something or the other on any given day. Here's a chart that is a nightmare if you think about it longer than a minute.

People looking for outliers...

Unfortunately this is the way 21st century American politics works.

Bully your political opponent into submission... Regardless of topic or consequences.

Their way or the highway.

632 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:06pm

re: #631 freedomplow

Also, doesn't Rasmussen show the GOP either tied or Within a point or so of the Dems?

633 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:08pm

re: #630 eddiebear
I think you are correct there eddiebear! But my #629 goes, I think, considerably further than that.

634 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:28pm

re: #631 freedomplow
Hmmmm - well I'd appreciate your take on my #629 above.

635 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:16pm

re: #632 eddiebear
Actually, as I said in my #629, Rasmussen shows in congressional elections "generic" Republicans lead (admittedly just barely!) over "generic Democrats" in Congressional Races.

636 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:08:24pm

re: #635 realwest
D'oh! Missed that!

Oh well, just remember that The Guys Get Shirts, IYKWIM

637 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:18pm

Real West:

Just came in late. Sorry.

But seeing all but one of the measures fail filled me with glee.

638 eddiebear  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:15:09pm

re: #394 FrogMarch

And more Treacher!

639 Syrah  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:44:27am

re: #629 realwest

I think that a big part of the problem here is that the Party is not monolithically ideological but is in fact a coalition of many different ideological factions.

There are some factions within the Republican Party that are an embarrassment to be associated with. The Democrats have similar problems.

It is sometimes too easy to confuse the Republican Party as a whole with its lunatic fringe. It is also too easy to imagine that the Party is capable of being able to chart an ideologically consistent message and mission. It really cannot do anything more than manage a confusing cacophony of messages and missions that are just different enough from what the Democrats offer that some people would vote more often than not for the (R) Party over the (D) Party. And small comfort that it may be, the Democrats have the exact same problem with their lunatic fringe and their overall message and mission as do the Republicans.

This is endemic to our "Winner takes all" district election system. Ideological purity takes a back seat to building the required "plus one or greater vote" electoral majority. This system necessitates building coalition Parties of competing factions that can tolerate each others presence just long enough to win an election.

Right now, the Party is in disarray. This present confusion of leadership and message will have a negative affect on many of those here at LGF, at least until a personality emerges over the course of the next year that many here at LGF can be comfortable with backing. There really is no such unifying figure at present. The attitude here will change very noticeably as soon as one does emerge.

640 Right Brain  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:10:26am

Gov. Steele needs to get a teleprompter so we are not staring at his bald head while he reads from sheets on a lectern.

Take some lessons from Obama and develop a leadership style of presentation. Steele's frumpy readings these past few days just underlined the difference. And don't button the top button. Jeez get some style.

641 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:35:37am

re: #196 Iron Fist

I'd say our last hope of SSN reform died when W couldn't get even the meagerest of privatization through a Republican House and Senate. After this stock market meltdown, there's no way you are going to get privatization through. Not for 20 years or more.

We are, as you say, well and truly fucked.

Sadly, we are indeed.


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