Rush Limbaugh, Creationist

Science • Views: 8,358

The question has come up several times, in our threads related to evolution, whether Rush Limbaugh is a creationist. I searched for definitive statements because I was curious where he stood, but was never able to really pin it down.

Well, today he pretty much settled the matter, with a rant about the “missing link” fossil announced by an international team of scientists; yep, he’s a creationist.

RUSH: Drudge had as a lead item up there this morning on his page a story from the UK, Sky News: “Scientists Unveil Missing Link In Evolution.” It’s all about how Darwin would be thrilled to be alive today. “Scientists have unveiled a 47-million-year-old fossilised skeleton of a monkey hailed as the missing link in human evolution.” It’s a one-foot, nine-inch-tall monkey, and it’s a lemur monkey described as the eighth wonder of the world. “The search for a direct connection between humans and the rest of the animal kingdom has taken 200 years - but it was presented to the world today —” So I guess this is settled science. We now officially came from a monkey, 47 million years ago. Well, that’s how it’s being presented here. It’s settled science. You know, this is all BS, as far as I’m concerned. Cross species evolution, I don’t think anybody’s ever proven that. They’re going out of their way now to establish evolution as a mechanism for creation, which, of course, you can’t do, but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity.

UPDATE at 5/19/09 10:38:48 pm:

It’s just pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, possibly one of the greatest finds of all time, Rush Limbaugh gets on the radio and tells his millions of admirers that it’s meaningless bullshit.

It does mean something. This should be a day when all Americans — all human beings — are proud of what we can accomplish through science and research, and human intelligence. Discoveries like “Ida” happen once in a lifetime.

But instead we have high profile “conservatives” bitching about it as if it’s a personal affront to them.

Just pathetically sad.

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923 comments
1 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:28:21pm

Et tu, Rush. :(

2 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:31:15pm

I sit here wondering- is he doing this to pander to his audience, or does he not know the demographics of his audience enough to pander to them in this way, so this is sincere. Pandering or ignorance? Either way- he's wrong.

3 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:31:54pm

"cross species evolution"... a talking point he grabbed somewhere, who's favorite term is that?

/ do we really have to guess?

4 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:32:36pm

Meltdown by comment #75

5 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:33:09pm

I feel sorry for that monkey that he has relatives like us.

6 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:33:12pm

re: #4 Dan G.

Meltdown by comment #75

Get your foxholes dug!

7 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:33:15pm

At least UFO.Whipnet.org agrees with Rush...

8 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:33:32pm

I heard that, and had to restrain myself from calling him up to chew him out. That would be a waste of time, and I had actual work to do, into the bargain.

A remarkably silly statement.

9 quickslow87  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:34:16pm

"...but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity."

Rush sure knows how to connect subjects together. Hehe. But as an aside, I don't really see why evolution and faith can't coexist peacefully.

10 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:34:39pm

re: #5 Miss Molly

I feel sorry for that monkey that he has relatives like us.

I think it's a she - they've called her Ida, and (though my anatomy is weak) I thought the pelvis looked female.

11 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:35:24pm

Rush is a rodeo clown who thinks he's the radio's crown.

12 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:35:25pm

Eve was a monkey!
/

13 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:35:37pm

Incoming!

14 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:35:42pm

re: #9 quickslow87

"...but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity."

Rush sure knows how to connect subjects together. Hehe. But as an aside, I don't really see why evolution and faith can't coexist peacefully.

Me, neither.

But then, I'm not arrogant enough (quite) to tell the gods how to go on.

15 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:36:00pm
They’re going out of their way now to establish evolution as a mechanism for creation, which, of course, you can’t do, but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity.

Dear Rush- I think what is really missing here is an explanation as to how denying science promotes our prosperity. It's the inverse. Science and technology have always improved our prosperity, so you deny one of the very things we need to help our economy. Please snap out of it.

~Sharmuta

16 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:36:05pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

I sit here wondering- is he doing this to pander to his audience, or does he not know the demographics of his audience enough to pander to them in this way, so this is sincere. Pandering or ignorance? Either way- he's wrong.

Rush is proud of the fact he never went to college, against his father's wishes.

Rush get a lot of basic science wrong, he's tuned more into pop science as miss-explained by the MSM. The result is he's a big skeptic, the MSM tends to push scarce science from the likes NRDC and CSIPI.

He's a skeptic for the wrong reasons.

In many ways it's the same type of thinking that leads others to creationism.

17 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:36:22pm

Dianna --I feel sorry for her that she has to have relatives like us.

18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:36:32pm

Calling bullshit on what he said.

How much money would Rush lose TOMORROW if he came out and said, "Yep. Darwin is right."

Hell, I'm just a lowly salesperson and I say shit to pander to people all of the time.

I don't believe he believes a word he said on that.

Of course, why should someone use someones words to gauge where they stand.

I could be wrong though.

19 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:36:43pm

He has never had a good mind for science. I think he is mainly opposed to nontheistic creation, instead of being opposed to evolution (even if he doesn't believe in it).

20 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:37:01pm

re: #17 Miss Molly

Dianna --I feel sorry for her that she has to have relatives like us.

This allows you yet a second upding!

21 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:37:41pm

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

22 sadhu  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:13pm

i wish the ufos and aliens would just show themselves to everyone at once and end all this crap

23 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:16pm

Lots of people get a lot of science wrong -- lets start with Al Gore.

24 quickslow87  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:40pm

re: #14 Dianna

Me, neither.

But then, I'm not arrogant enough (quite) to tell the gods how to go on.

I like to look at the Christian perspective(since I'm one) about the account of the creation and heard that the original Hebrew word has three different meanings: an hour, a day, or an indefinite period of time. So there's one way where evolution and God can coexist in my mind if it's six indefinite periods of time. But maybe that's just me. *shrug*

25 ted  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:47pm

I wish Rush would stick to what he does best and leave evolution to scientists.

26 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:38:51pm

re: #9 quickslow87

You are correct. However, you fail to realize that the arguments presented against Evolution are a means to an end. The primary target of the ID'rs is philosophical materialism (as opposed to spiritualism); they really don't like secularism and the fact the people value the things that make their lives pleasant/long-lived and would prefer that we disdain our property and live for death... or whatever they believe will come after it.

27 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:39:05pm

re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Calling bullshit on what he said.

How much money would Rush lose TOMORROW if he came out and said, "Yep. Darwin is right."

Hell, I'm just a lowly salesperson and I say shit to pander to people all of the time.

I don't believe he believes a word he said on that.

Of course, why should someone use someones words to gauge where they stand.

I could be wrong though.

But I think that's wrong. If he's pandering just to keep an audience, he's not in this for conservatism, but himself. Some would say that's all he's in it for anyways, but he's then misleading people on real conservative ideals. Barry Goldwater would smack him!

28 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:39:15pm

Rush is always putting out statements to get people to react to him.. I'm pretty sure this was a joke.. like fema-nazi's and Caller abortions. And whats this threads big push on Darwinism anyway? It's a long way from being as proven as E=MC2 to say some 45 million year old toe bone makes us ancestors of a german monkey.

29 quickslow87  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:39:39pm

I meant for the translated word: day.

30 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:40:45pm

re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

So what you are saying is Rush is a low-life, unprincipled, invertebrate puppet of his audience and will parrot anything necessary to keep the money flowing?

31 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:40:50pm

re: #28 BingoBunny

You're misrepresenting the importance of this finding by calling it merely a "45 million year old toe bone".

32 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:40:57pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

Frankly, the lemur was probably of better character than some of my ancestors. Or, that's my suspicion. It's downright creepy, the way all sides of my family don't discuss their families.

33 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:41:21pm

Never paid much attention to him in the past, looks like that'll be a continuing trend

34 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:41:29pm

If I may quote Dr. Seuss... (From "What Was I Scared Of?")

I said “I do not fear those pants
with nobody inside them.”
I said and said and said those words-
I said them but I lied them.

35 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:41:49pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

They're targeting it because they believe that evolution is the linchpin in modern materialism.

36 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:41:56pm

In the same show he's pimping a new kookspiracy theory as well: Obama's out to close down the Republican Chrysler dealers...

LIMBAUGH: Do you think that the Obama administration, working with Chrysler, working with the automobile manufacturers, working with the dealers, do you think they're just randomly taking a look at a list, saying, "We don't need this one in Long Island; chop it. We don't need that one in Portland; chop it. We don't need that one in San Antonio; chop it."

You think they're doing that or do you think maybe -- I just throw this out there as a possibility -- do you think maybe Obama and his administration are targeting dealerships happen to be run and owned by Republicans? I don't know this. I'm being led to speculate because Mr. [Jim] Anderer says he doesn't know why his high-performing dealership is shut down.

You must be a bad boy Charles, Media Matters is also pointing out these facts.

/

37 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:42:20pm

If he accepts evolution and said this anyways he's a sellout.

If he's a creationist, then he's ignorant and hurting the party.

Keeping science strong in this country will HELP our economy. If Rush cares so much about that, he should educate himself. It's not hard to pick up a legitimate book on evolution.

38 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:42:50pm

re: #35 Dan G.

"They" apparently believe evolution leads to things like Nazism and homosexuality, too. It's really bizarre.

39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:43:16pm

re: #27 Sharmuta

I think he believes in Conservatism.

But, more than that? I think he believes in Rush.

40 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:43:37pm

re: #38 Machalot

Nah, they know it doesn't, but they believe that they can destroy evolution by guilt through implied association.

41 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:44:12pm

re: #28 BingoBunny

Rush is always putting out statements to get people to react to him.. I'm pretty sure this was a joke.. like fema-nazi's and Caller abortions. And whats this threads big push on Darwinism anyway? It's a long way from being as proven as E=MC2 to say some 45 million year old toe bone makes us ancestors of a german monkey.

Did you read the paper, or are you assuming like Rush did?

42 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:44:31pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

Because they think it invalidates the Bible.

43 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:44:54pm

re: #30 Dan G.

As will I, thank you very much.

I don't need as many yachts as Rush, but, while I believe he strongly believes in Conservatism, he is a stronger Capitalist.

No, I am not calling him evil.

44 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:44:58pm

re: #40 Dan G.

Are you saying all of that nonsense is just a cynical ploy? I actually think they are true believers, if not blinded by zealotry.

45 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:11pm

re: #41 Thanos

Did you read the paper, or are you assuming like Rush did?

How on earth did I miss the comment you quoted?!

46 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:14pm

Well, great. Just fucking great.

47 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:27pm

Early results say most of the CA props are going down. Unfortunately, F looks like its going to pass

48 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:35pm

re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Calling bullshit on what he said.

How much money would Rush lose TOMORROW if he came out and said, "Yep. Darwin is right."

Hell, I'm just a lowly salesperson and I say shit to pander to people all of the time.

I don't believe he believes a word he said on that.

Of course, why should someone use someones words to gauge where they stand.

I could be wrong though.

I disagree completely. I think Rush is a stand-up guy who says what he thinks. If he really does believe in creationism, I disagree with him on that, but he's not the type to pretend to believe something he doesn't believe.

49 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:35pm

re: #28 BingoBunny

Rush is always putting out statements to get people to react to him.. I'm pretty sure this was a joke.. like fema-nazi's and Caller abortions. And whats this threads big push on Darwinism anyway? It's a long way from being as proven as E=MC2 to say some 45 million year old toe bone makes us ancestors of a german monkey.

Evolution has 150 years of empirical evidence to back it up. It's about as proven as any scientific theory could ever possible be.

50 Rich H  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:45:57pm

Rush is pandering to the fish bumper sticker people, but he still hasn't overtly attacked or contradicted evolution. He still has some room to evolve his position.

51 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:46:42pm

I am going to visit Mr. Nappyland.

G'night Mary Ellen!

52 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:46:59pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Early results say most of the CA props are going down. Unfortunately, F looks like its going to pass

That's because people didn't bother to read it. Until I did, and spotted all the outs, I was going to vote "yes" on it.

Of course, I've never failed to read a ballot proposition all the way through before voting, but I strongly suspect I'm in the minority.

53 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:47:30pm

re: #44 Machalot

Yes, they are in fact cynics. Their quote mining (leaving paragraphs out between the stitched "quotes"), unconscionable lying (over and over again), etc... all demonstrate to me, that they're cynical.

54 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:47:34pm

re: #32 Dianna

Frankly, the lemur was probably of better character than some of my ancestors. Or, that's my suspicion. It's downright creepy, the way all sides of my family don't discuss their families.

Hehe. I've got a certain uncle I'd like to trade in for a lemur.

55 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:47:40pm

re: #28 BingoBunny

Rush is always putting out statements to get people to react to him.. I'm pretty sure this was a joke.. like fema-nazi's and Caller abortions. And whats this threads big push on Darwinism anyway? It's a long way from being as proven as E=MC2 to say some 45 million year old toe bone makes us ancestors of a german monkey.

Riddle me this, why is there such a big push to teach ID in public school? Clearly you can teach in it church without interfering with other peoples religious beliefs or lack there of at a public school, no?

56 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:47:47pm

First off, it's not a "toe bone", it's a whole fricking skeleton.
Second, it's 47 MYA, not 45
Third, it's Adopoidea, not a monkey.

57 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:47:59pm

#31
Look I fully support science, Darwin is prob 99.5 percent right.. But they have studied living plants and animals for years and still can't classify them with 100% certainty.. this could turn out to be a lemur/monkey or a monkey/lemur if you understand what I mean.. first looks have been wrong so often in this stuff.

58 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:48:02pm

re: #52 Dianna

Of course, I've never failed to read a ballot proposition all the way through before voting, but I strongly suspect I'm in the minority.

Aw, why would you waste your time on a silly thing like that? What could possibly go wrong?

59 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:48:13pm

re: #49 Sharmuta

Nylonase....

60 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:48:36pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

Because they think it invalidates the Bible.

Do they insist that all the worlds languages started with the Tower of Babel or that the sun rotates around the earth too ?

61 PuritanicalRightwingNutjob  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:48:38pm

re: #24 quickslow87

I'll do you one better. Evolution, billion-year-old universe, whatever. People have got themselves convinced of all sorts of crap and showing them all the fossils in the world will just invite accusations of forgery and unfalsifiability. We've got to win this one on philosophical grounds, since this is a question of philosophy. And in my view, the strongest argument for science that can be made to creationist types is:

Who do you think wrote the laws of physics? If you believe in an all-powerful God, you must accept that God wrote the laws of the universe. And if you believe in God, you must believe in the laws of physics, mathematics, and probabilty. And if you believe in those, you must believe in the scientific method, and accept the plausibility of evolution.

62 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:48:55pm

re: #58 Machalot

Aw, why would you waste your time on a silly thing like that? What could possibly go wrong?

Ooooh! I shudder to think!

63 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:11pm

re: #57 BingoBunny

How does speciation occur?

64 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:14pm

Rush has been completely up front regarding his lack of college experience. I think that is perfectly fine when evaluating politics, etc. He is obviously a very bright man.

On the other hand a science class or two would not have hurt him one bit on a subject like this.

65 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:16pm

re: #56 Thanos

First off, it's not a "toe bone", it's a whole fricking skeleton.
Second, it's 47 MYA, not 45
Third, it's Adopoidea, not a monkey.

Pfft!
Details!

////

66 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:21pm

I haven't liked Rush longer than anybody here unless you were in Sacramento California in 1986..................He was a blowhard bombastic local radio talent that got lucky......the rest is history.
But I agree with a lot of what he says.

67 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:22pm

You all know me well enough to realize that I would never want to offend or upset, so I'm sure you'll take it in the right spirit when I ask - if Limbaugh can be so blindingly stupid about science and reason and the Constitution and little things like that, is it possible he might be wrong about other stuff too? Like, oh, I don't know, Barack Obama?

68 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:23pm

re: #57 BingoBunny

classify them with 100% certainty..

Clarify.

69 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:49pm

re: #60 avanti

Believe it or not, there is a group that believes in literal geocentrism on the basis that the Catholic Church once taught it, and the Church is infallible.

70 gander  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:53pm

Rush has too much air time to fill, so reason falls way to hyperbole. That is why I have an appreciation for Savage. When he runs out of things to say, he reads from the Hebrew Bible, talks about his childhood or discusses food and restaurants.

71 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:49:59pm

re: #63 Thanos

How does speciation occur?

Greedy wall street types......

Wait, that was speculation....

Nevermind.

72 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:50:02pm

re: #42 Sharmuta

Because they think it invalidates the Bible.

I guess that opinion isn't as fringe as I had thought...

73 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:50:55pm

re: #52 Dianna

That's because people didn't bother to read it. Until I did, and spotted all the outs, I was going to vote "yes" on it.

Of course, I've never failed to read a ballot proposition all the way through before voting, but I strongly suspect I'm in the minority.

I do read the ballot propositions in every election. I've often read it several times over out loud to be sure I understand what I'm reading.

74 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:51:57pm

re: #67 Cato the Elder

Wrong about "0"s pant size?...favorite color?...worst fear?.........maybe....but I think he is correct on his assessment of "0"s politics.

75 avanti  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:52:14pm

re: #69 Machalot

Believe it or not, there is a group that believes in literal geocentrism on the basis that the Catholic Church once taught it, and the Church is infallible.

Man, that is some serious faith.

76 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:52:35pm

re: #67 Cato the Elder

Shills are as shills do.

77 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:52:47pm

re: #35 Dan G.

They're targeting it because they believe that evolution is the linchpin in modern materialism.

How does that reasoning work?

78 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:52:55pm

Dote... I guessed wrong on the first meltdown.

79 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:53:40pm

Evolving from the Aodpoidea or Monkey or whatever -- how fast can we evolve to something else as I don't think we are all that hot.

80 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:53:41pm

re: #77 SeafoodGumbo

I'm not sure, but they've (DI / Adnan Oktar) explicitly stated that.

81 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:53:53pm

re: #57 BingoBunny

#31
this could turn out to be a lemur/monkey or a monkey/lemur if you understand what I mean..

Actually, I do not understand what you mean.

82 Macker  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:54:16pm

Charles, I'm truly surprised it took you this long to figure that out....

83 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:54:18pm

re: #52 Dianna

That's because people didn't bother to read it. Until I did, and spotted all the outs, I was going to vote "yes" on it.

Of course, I've never failed to read a ballot proposition all the way through before voting, but I strongly suspect I'm in the minority.

I usually go into the ballot box with the assumption that any bill proposed is going to end up screwing me somehow. Anyone who voted for F just let the politicians get a raise when they fix the budget. Watch how fast it gets "fixed" now.

84 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:55:24pm

re: #77 SeafoodGumbo

The wedge strategy is a political and social action plan authored by the Discovery Institute, the hub of the intelligent design movement. The strategy was put forth in a Discovery Institute manifesto known as the Wedge Document,[1] which describes a broad social, political, and academic agenda whose ultimate goal is to "defeat [scientific] materialism" represented by evolution, "reverse the stifling materialist world view and replace it with a science consonant with Christian and theistic convictions"[2] and to "affirm the reality of God."[3] Its goal is to "renew" American culture by shaping public policy to reflect conservative Christian, namely evangelical Protestant, values.[4]

From Wikipedia's entry for the Wedge Document, you could also fetch the Wedge Document itself.

85 quickjustice  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:55:36pm

I think he's an opportunist, feeding his audience what they want to hear.

86 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:56:21pm

It's a compound problem for many, and a faith shaker. But denying the proven physical science by promoting false science is not the answer. To remain true to the concept of Creation means you must reach new levels of spiritual understanding. Religions, preachers, followers who fail to advance their thoughts will never win in the arena of Truth. THINK!

87 MPH  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:56:56pm

re: #18 Fat Bastard Vegetarian


I don't believe he believes a word he said on that.

You might be right -- but what does that even matter? He said what he said for a reason -- one that can not be defended.

88 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:57:18pm

But, does he want to teach it in public science classes?

89 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:57:20pm

re: #67 Cato the Elder

You all know me well enough to realize that I would never want to offend or upset, so I'm sure you'll take it in the right spirit when I ask - if Limbaugh can be so blindingly stupid about science and reason and the Constitution and little things like that, is it possible he might be wrong about other stuff too? Like, oh, I don't know, Barack Obama?

I dislike the Obama administration so much that I am cutting him slack on that one.

90 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:57:35pm

re: #86 Kreuzueber Halbmond

It's a compound problem for many, and a faith shaker. But denying the proven physical science by promoting false science is not the answer.

For example:
[Link: www.catholicintl.com...]

91 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:03pm

re: #59 Dan G.

Nylonase....

Word.

92 gander  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:08pm

I don't know who has it harder... the GOP with the Creationists, or the Dems with the Self-Loathing Hand Wringers.

93 bosforus  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:28pm
Cross species evolution, I don’t think anybody’s ever proven that. ... but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity.

If I may be so bold as to attempt to analyze these words and the mind of Rush - I don't take these words to be a strong conviction towards creationism. I do, however, believe that he will never come out and just say I'm a creationist even if he were. For that matter, I don't think he'd ever come out and just say, I'm an evolutionist, even if he were. I think he's too "listener motivated" and has a strong following of people who are creationists so I would say that he's decided, regardless of how he really feels about it, to take a creationist leaning. I realize he says, "this is all BS", but when he says "I don't think anybody's ever proven that" he is actually leaving himself open for being convinced of that proof and the way that he says it all seems that he really does just want to get to his economic point. That's just how I read it (I didn't actually listen to his words).

94 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:44pm

re: #70 gander

Rush has too much air time to fill, so reason falls way to hyperbole. That is why I have an appreciation for Savage. When he runs out of things to say, he reads from the Hebrew Bible, talks about his childhood or discusses food and restaurants.

You have got to be kidding.

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:49pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

I've never understood that either. My hubby thinks a racist thing (comparing monkeys to africans). Sick, I know, but some people think that way.

96 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:58:58pm

re: #60 avanti

Do they insist that all the worlds languages started with the Tower of Babel or that the sun rotates around the earth too ?

You would have to ask them, but I've read a few Bible blogs, and that's exactly their thinking. If Genesis isn't true, the rest of the Bible isn't true.

97 mich-again  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:20pm

I read the whole disjointed op-ed from Rush. That reminded me of a Zippy the Pinhead comic.

98 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:33pm

re: #92 gander

Perhaps the Dems and the GOP can get together and create two new political parties: the winners and the losers. The handwringers and creationists can populate the loser party. ;)

99 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 8:59:52pm

Speciation in ring species

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...] The Wiki starter primer, follow the links at the bottom to the real information.

100 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:00:43pm

re: #69 Machalot

Believe it or not, there is a group that believes in literal geocentrism on the basis that the Catholic Church once taught it, and the Church is infallible.

Why do I always insist on going and looking for these things?

Fair Education Foundation ("The Earth is Not Moving!")

Association for Biblical Astronomy

Catholic Apologetics International (Galileo was wrong, the Church was right!)

101 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:01:23pm

Dan G... I had the same thought.

102 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:01:48pm
103 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:20pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Easy, there!

Those are the sort of links that make me despair of the human race. Screaming and banging your head on your desk don't really do anything but make your throat sore and give you a bruise.

104 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:21pm

re: #84 Dan G.

From Wikipedia's entry for the Wedge Document, you could also fetch the Wedge Document itself.

Thanks for finding that for me. It still doesn't seem to show what materialism has to do with evolution. I'm just left with a big "Huh?" But I guess that's the point....

105 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:42pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Why do I always insist on going and looking for these things?

Fair Education Foundation ("The Earth is Not Moving!")

Association for Biblical Astronomy

Catholic Apologetics International (Galileo was wrong, the Church was right!)

What they fail to realize is that I am the center of my known universe.

106 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:44pm

re: #100 Last Mohican

Yeah, these guys are much more blatantly anti-science than the creationists. The creationists at least try to cast doubt on the evidence. Geocentrists flat out deny the truth.

107 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:02:55pm

re: #93 bosforus

"I don't think anybody's ever proven that" he is actually leaving himself open for being convinced of that proof [...]

I'll disagree with you on this part. I read this as "I haven't read a god-damned thing, but I'm just going to try and waste someone who has read about it's time and then just call bullshit on it anyway". What's more, his rant about classification and misstatement of easily attainable facts (directly in the entry for this article) lends further credence to my judgment.

108 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:26pm

re: #101 Miss Molly

Which one? ;) (use the "reply" button) ;)

109 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:27pm

OT: (since we've passed 100).

Any of my readers who've hesitated to comment, please understand that I hate Andrews with a dark and frightening passion.

110 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:41pm

That's depressing. I thought Rush was sharper than that.

On the subject of our lemur-esque Eve... er, Ida...

I like the flash-based tour of the evolutionary sequence on the website Charles linked earlier, which puts together this little guy (girl) in a chain all the way up to present-day people.

Personally I think the implications of the complete evolutionary chain are pretty devastating. We are definitely from here. We live here; it's our home; we're damned lucky to be here, and it took a long, long time to get us to where we are.

(And in a nice twist, the description of that ancient lake sounds a bit like a garden of eden to me, and those scientists use the word "miracle" to describe the fossil.)

111 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:42pm

Rush Limbaugh sez:

We now officially came from a monkey, 47 million years ago. - False
Well, that’s how it’s being presented here. - False
It’s settled science. - False
You know, this is all BS, as far as I’m concerned. - False
Cross species evolution, I don’t think anybody’s ever proven that. - False

Grade: F

112 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:50pm

re: #104 SeafoodGumbo

I agree.

113 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:52pm

re: #86 Kreuzueber Halbmond

It's a compound problem for many, and a faith shaker. But denying the proven physical science by promoting false science is not the answer. To remain true to the concept of Creation means you must reach new levels of spiritual understanding. Religions, preachers, followers who fail to advance their thoughts will never win in the arena of Truth. THINK!

I grew up Baptist. And have explored many denominations for a spiritual home.

One thing I found was the astounding number of Christians who don't seriously read and study the scriptures.

They try to balance and incomplete understanding of scripture and an incomplete understanding of science (see confusion over the word theory) and end up in a muddle.

114 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:03:53pm

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

115 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:04:09pm

re: #106 Machalot

Yeah, these guys are much more blatantly anti-science than the creationists. The creationists at least try to cast doubt on the evidence. Geocentrists flat out deny the truth.

Well, I don't know. I'd say the creationists flat out deny the truth too.

116 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:04:42pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

The consensus is it leads to massive flamewars so no one ever asks

117 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:04:53pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

Maddhouse
(Logged in)
Registered since: Nov 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

118 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:11pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

That we don't discuss it. So leave it.

119 The Shadow Do  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:11pm

re: #67 Cato the Elder

You all know me well enough to realize that I would never want to offend or upset, so I'm sure you'll take it in the right spirit when I ask - if Limbaugh can be so blindingly stupid about science and reason and the Constitution and little things like that, is it possible he might be wrong about other stuff too? Like, oh, I don't know, Barack Obama?

No doubt you are right. Obama is completely misunderstood. I blame Rush.

120 Miss Molly  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:17pm

Dan G....... Your comment that the Creationists in the Republican Party and the Hand Wringers in the Democratic Party should join forces. Could be interesting!

121 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:24pm

re: #105 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What they fail to realize is that I am the center of my known universe.

Wait, wait, I thought I was the center of the known universe......


;-P

122 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:28pm

re: #115 Last Mohican

Maybe geocentrism seems worse to me because I studied orbital mechanics and work on space vehicles, and know little about biology in comparison.

123 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:34pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

Say what you will but be civil about it.

124 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:05:37pm

re: #64 The Shadow Do

Rush has been completely up front regarding his lack of college experience. I think that is perfectly fine when evaluating politics, etc. He is obviously a very bright man.

On the other hand a science class or two would not have hurt him one bit on a subject like this.

My major didn't require ANY science (besides I didn't finish). I learned enough in high school to understand the basics of evolution, indeed, empirical science. I can also understand that there IS NO reason science and faith can't peacefully co-exist.

Evolution is Intelligent Design -- P.J. O'Rourke

125 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:29pm

So we've throughly dissected what Rush said.
So he's a creationist twit.
Much more important than "0"s(pronounced zero) auto efficiency standards package.
No reason to look at that.
Loony Republicans are all the rage.

/anyone else care?

126 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:45pm

re: #118 Dianna

That we don't discuss it. So leave it.

Well, sometimes we discuss it. But not upon request by someone posting his or her second comment on LGF.

127 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:06:51pm

re: #102 avspatti

Who cares?

I care! I'm deeply disturbed that men and women who proclaim themselves to be the standard bearers for a movement are both so self-motivated as to hurt the movement they claim to promote, and that they could be so ignorant for supposedly intelligent people.

They are not promoting conservatism- they are only promoting themselves. Sad.

128 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:11pm

re: #126 Last Mohican

Well, sometimes we discuss it. But not upon request by someone posting his or her second comment on LGF.

Quite!

But I prefer not to, really.

129 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:14pm

re: #117 Last Mohican

Maddhouse
(Logged in)
Registered since: Nov 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

Another sleeper. Good catch Last Mohican.

130 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #104 SeafoodGumbo

I think that it has to do with the degree of respect/attention that science has; the DI'rs believe that religion should be equally or more esteemed than science (not sure that it isn't...). That's why they're taking the "we're science too" approach as opposed to the denial of the flat Earthers... they see it as an quick conduit to "snatch" the esteem that science has back to religion through a religious pseudoscience (ID).

131 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:24pm

re: #102 avspatti

The owner of this blog cares. Don't like it? Get your own blog.

132 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:41pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

I'm not into spoon feeding, so you'll have to get your answer another way.

133 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:41pm

re: #68 Dan G.

Clarify.


Dude I'm no scientist.. and I don't have to clarify anything I want to say.. But I do know better then to believe the first word about anything.. or is the Pith Down man still in our family tree.? What ever that thing some guy sewed together in the 20's was called..that was supposed to be the last word to prove Darwinism.. and was discovered to be a total fraud about 30 years later. Just as a little aside this case of bones is sealed in plastic.. and can only be X ray studied.. ok the bones are right for something.. but how can you really know they are 47 MY old and not 50,000 years old without touching them?
another point as a quick aside my uncle was a Geologist for a oil company some of the core samples he made had fossils in it, he gave me some.. when I was taking geology in college I showed them to a professor.. who Immediately said they were fakes.. because of the gold color on them.. was watching History Channel last night and they talked about the way Fossils get fools gold in them and turn a gold color.. whos the fool.. well that professor was one.

134 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:47pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

Maybe deep down they're really ashamed of the way we've behaved like a bunch of little shits since we first evolved to the point of learning how to throw sharp sticks at one other... Perhaps it's the biggest case of Freudian Projection on G-d's Green Earth.

135 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:07:56pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

Hehe, why?

136 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:20pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

Huh?

137 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:32pm

re: #120 Miss Molly

Ok Thanks.

138 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:32pm

PZ Myers take on Ida:

Darwinius masillae

This is an important new fossil, a 47 million year old primate nicknamed Ida. She's a female juvenile who was probably caught in a toxic gas cloud from a volcanic lake, and her body settled into the soft sediments of the lake, where she was buried undisturbed...
139 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:08:53pm

Time for me to get some sleeps, catch you all on the morrow.

Youtube Video
140 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:10pm

re: #89 Dianna

I dislike the Obama administration so much that I am cutting him slack on that one.

It's one thing to dislike the Obama administration - that's the loyal opposition à la Commentary magazine.

It's quite another to foster full-on, balls-out, brain-off ODS as part of a ratings strategy.

141 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:21pm

re: #136 MandyManners

Huh?

The blog equivalent of yelling "Fire" in a crowded room.

142 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:23pm

It doesn't help that radical athiests with PhD's are pushing atheism. I listened to a book talk by Richard Dawkins and was truly offended. He had absolutely no respect for the belief system of others. I can see how those truly religious and uneducated-in-basic-science people out there would flock to Creationism after hearing him.

I think he is hurting science.

143 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:27pm

re: #125 IslandLibertarian

I do. Why the red herring?

144 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:29pm

re: #133 BingoBunny

Piltdown man was a fraud, exposed ages ago. Many in the (then) budding science of Anthropology thought so from the second it was promoted.

Are you that ignorant? Then go to wikipedia for a primer!

145 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:09:37pm

oops...

Perhaps my comment reflects the stats Last Mohican felt so inspired to post.

146 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:20pm

re: #121 jcm

Wait, wait, I thought I was the center of the known universe......

;-P

WRONG, the center of the Universe is my cat.

147 Rich H  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:27pm

re: #95 ggt

I've never understood that either. My hubby thinks a racist thing (comparing monkeys to africans). Sick, I know, but some people think that way.

Perhaps it is.

An interesting thing that I noticed watching WW II documentaries: Many Americans at that time characterized Japanese as "monkeys." And I also saw evidence that the Japanese during that war characterized Americans/Europeans as monkeys as well.

Racists agree with each other on their common ancestor!

148 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:45pm

re: #142 ggt

re: #142 ggt

It doesn't help that radical athiests with PhD's are pushing atheism. I listened to a book talk by Richard Dawkins and was truly offended. He had absolutely no respect for the belief system of others. I can see how those truly religious and uneducated-in-basic-science people out there would flock to Creationism after hearing him.

I think he is hurting science.

Agreed. His (just like Bill Maher's) smugness is very entertaining and gratifying if you agree with him, but it's terribly incendiary to anyone else who hears is.

149 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:10:55pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

Stinky aborts Moby's and Trolls with great joy.

150 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:16pm

re: #145 Maddhouse

oops...

Perhaps my comment reflects the stats Last Mohican felt so inspired to post.

Karma: -2
Registered since: Nov 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 3
No. of links posted: 0

******************
I have a feeling that your Karma's about to go down further.

151 HelloDare  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:29pm

Anagram for Rush Limbaugh: I Hamburg Lush

152 Kreuzueber Halbmond  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:11:50pm

re: #113 jcm

and end up in a muddle.

And end up ruining the Republican Party.

153 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:12:07pm

re: #28 BingoBunny

Rush is always putting out statements to get people to react to him.. I'm pretty sure this was a joke.. like fema-nazi's and Caller abortions. And whats this threads big push on Darwinism anyway? It's a long way from being as proven as E=MC2 to say some 45 million year old toe bone makes us ancestors of a german monkey.

Because... science holds this stuff to be self-evident...? Like, that's how it works. You know this, right?

What's this big push on Chemistry, anyway? We know if you strike a match it makes fire, that's a long way from all this stuff about atoms and other stuff you can't even see...

154 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:12:12pm

re: #145 Maddhouse

Ooh. Lookee here.
*****************
Karma: -3
Registered since: Nov 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 3
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155 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:12:52pm

Having battery issues, again.

Weet dreams all!

156 prime_minister_of_sinister  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:13:21pm

"We now officially came from a monkey, 47 million years ago. ...You know, this is all BS, as far as I'm concerned." - Rush Limbaugh

I guess you can chalk me up to being one of those who are "conservative" fiscally and national defense-wise but tend to live by a libertarian philosophy. To each his own, do no harm, yadda, yadda, yadda...

That being said, I've always found Rush to be a most talented radio personality and I've enjoyed his show whether or not I agree or disagree on a particular point. Whether you love or hate him, he is good at what he does.

But when I heard him say the words above I was surprised. I knew he always played to the base but he usually kept away from science vs religion. Hearing him speak in such a flat, 2-dimensional manner struck me the instance I heard it.

157 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:13:23pm

re: #133 BingoBunny

[...] I don't have to clarify anything I want to say.. [...]

You do if you want a conversation.

But I do know better then to believe the first word about anything..

The first word... really?

[...]Pith Down man [...]

Oh, that ol' chestnut.

Darwinism.. [...]

You're sources are showing. There is no such discipline as Darwinism.

158 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:13:44pm

re: #141 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The blog equivalent of yelling "Fire" in a crowded room.

I couldn't grasp the non-sequitor.

159 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:41pm

re: #146 ggt

WRONG, the center of the Universe is my cat.

LOL!

That I can believe!

160 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:14:55pm

re: #140 Cato the Elder

It's one thing to dislike the Obama administration - that's the loyal opposition à la Commentary magazine.

It's quite another to foster full-on, balls-out, brain-off ODS as part of a ratings strategy.

As you say.

Look, Rush Limbaugh is a clever man who can talk for three hours at a time. It's not a talent I possess, and I wouldn't know what to say, faced with a microphone every morning. He says a lot of profoundly silly things. He says some interesting things. He sometimes puts facts together and comes up with idiocy, and sometimes does so and comes up with something brilliant. He claims to have core beliefs, and I'll take him at his word. I'll assume that he has some beliefs, and the ability to improvise and vamp on the themes he chooses, and I hope he'll entertain me. My day usually involves either truly turgid writing or numbers, and I need entertainment.

What I won't do is take political or life advice from him.

161 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:05pm

re: #156 prime_minister_of_sinister

"We now officially came from a monkey, 47 million years ago. ...You know, this is all BS, as far as I'm concerned." - Rush Limbaugh

I guess you can chalk me up to being one of those who are "conservative" fiscally and national defense-wise but tend to live by a libertarian philosophy. To each his own, do no harm, yadda, yadda, yadda...

That being said, I've always found Rush to be a most talented radio personality and I've enjoyed his show whether or not I agree or disagree on a particular point. Whether you love or hate him, he is good at what he does.

But when I heard him say the words above I was surprised. I knew he always played to the base but he usually kept away from science vs religion. Hearing him speak in such a flat, 2-dimensional manner struck me the instance I heard it.

Did his tone betray anything?

162 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:05pm

re: #144 Dianna

Not ignorant, the troll knows exactly what its doing.

163 IslandLibertarian  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:21pm

re: #143 Dan G.

born of frustration...........sorry......but I've had Limbaughs number for over 24 years........and this choir is singing the same hymn over and over and over.....while our real freedoms are being eliminated.....and that's not ODS.........that's a fact.

164 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:26pm

re: #152 Kreuzueber Halbmond

And end up ruining the Republican Party.

Yep.....

Damn.

165 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:30pm

re: #145 Maddhouse

oops...

Perhaps my comment reflects the stats Last Mohican felt so inspired to post.

Many here on LGF on not so trusting of the intentions of those who post few times over a long stretch of time. Especially posting a question on a very touchy subject.

166 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:41pm
The blog equivalent of yelling "Fire" in a crowded room.

No actually I was curious. It never crossed my mind this would be so taboo. I like stats, and find the christian vs evolution sides and how that relates to abortion is interesting.

Much like an informal poll I have been doing locally. I get the privilege of seeing people walk their dogs on fields meant for childrens sporting activities and not pick up their animals poop. So it peaked my curiosity and I had to know what percentage of these people vote democrat or republican. The ongoing tally is surprising.

167 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:15:50pm

"Cross species evolution", Rush?

What, like a dog turning into a cat?

You're not likely to get that, anymore than a whale is likely to turn back into a land animal.

From whatever point you care to start in an organism's history, you're limited by the degree to which the genes of that organism through mutation or recombination, etc. can respond to selection pressures from its environment. It's a balance between adaptation and extinction.

But even so, we know from comparative genomics that the amount of genetic change that is required to produce some pretty profound differences in phenotype is relatively modest.

I suspect that Rush is a reflexive skeptic and bitter-clinger, and hasn't wanted to really investigate the evidence.

168 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:16:06pm

re: #145 Maddhouse

oops...

Perhaps my comment reflects the stats Last Mohican felt so inspired to post.

Your comment was idiotic, in context.

169 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:16:56pm

re: #95 ggt

I've never understood that either. My hubby thinks a racist thing (comparing monkeys to africans). Sick, I know, but some people think that way.

I dunno. I'd imagine that black people would be more likely to be creationists as they seem to take a more literal view of the Bible, at least from what I've seen.

It's kind of a bummer to see the world moving towards superstition. I hadn't thought this creationist stuff was that popular, but it looks like I was wrong. Between that on the right and all the environmental bs on the left, science is taking a drubbing from all sides.

170 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:17:10pm

re: #165 Idle Drifter

are not PIMF

171 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:17:15pm

re: #2 Sharmuta

I sit here wondering- is he doing this to pander to his audience, or does he not know the demographics of his audience enough to pander to them in this way, so this is sincere. Pandering or ignorance? Either way- he's wrong.

I have never totally understood how much Limbaugh is planned.

172 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:17:41pm

re: #150 MandyManners

Karma: -2
Registered since: Nov 3, 2008 at 9:09 am
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 3
No. of links posted: 0

******************
I have a feeling that your Karma's about to go down further.

You've got that one right.

173 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:18:17pm

re: #168 Dianna

Your comment was idiotic, in context.

I'm with Kragar: not so much idiotic, more the blog equivalent of yelling "fire" in a crowded theater.

174 flyingcloud  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:18:30pm

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

175 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:18:50pm

Vindictive crowd - ouch - Should I start believing in Karma?

176 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:19:10pm

re: #163 IslandLibertarian

I agree, but you have to be sure who are legitimate allies and anti-mind hooligan's aren't good allies. But more important, this isn't your blog, and you don't command the time of anyone here, so if you don't like the conversation, but would like to remain a guest, just take the night off... its rude to do otherwise.

177 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:19:19pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

I wonder what kinds of analogies people made before the invention of computers?

178 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:19:55pm

re: #130 Dan G.

I think that it has to do with the degree of respect/attention that science has; the DI'rs believe that religion should be equally or more esteemed than science (not sure that it isn't...). That's why they're taking the "we're science too" approach as opposed to the denial of the flat Earthers... they see it as an quick conduit to "snatch" the esteem that science has back to religion through a religious pseudoscience (ID).

That's a great explanation.

179 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:19:56pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

Woo hoo! It's on!

I'm placing my money on #208.

180 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:04pm

re: #166 Maddhouse

It never crossed my mind this would be so taboo. I like stats, and find the christian vs evolution sides and how that relates to abortion is interesting.

Are you really asserting that Christians do not believe in science?

181 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:07pm

re: #161 MandyManners

Did his tone betray anything?

That he wasn't particularly interested.

182 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:14pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

...

I hate it when they try to wax philosophical.

183 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:49pm

I just find it interesting a sleeper would try to drag abortion into this discussion.

184 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:51pm

re: #175 Maddhouse

Vindictive crowd - ouch - Should I start believing in Karma?

You are a massive smart ass.

185 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:20:52pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

Either an ingenious parody, or the real-deal idiotarian moopher. I'm betting the latter.

186 flyingcloud  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:23pm

re: #177 Machalot

The question should be rather: Can we produce a computer without a Christian world view?

187 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:34pm

re: #166 Maddhouse

You're kidding, right? The original "how to incite a riot" query?

Are you 15 or something?

188 Macker  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

You sure we're not Cylons?

189 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:41pm

re: #166 Maddhouse

Dog pooping in a park...

Got lots of experience I see.

190 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:55pm

So, what is the consensus here on human intelligence? Does it exist?

191 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:21:57pm

re: #186 flyingcloud

The question should be rather: Can we produce a computer without a Christian world view?

Are you joking?

192 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:13pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

Created from what?

193 Fearless Fred  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:25pm

re: #19 Machalot

He has never had a good mind for science. I think he is mainly opposed to nontheistic creation, instead of being opposed to evolution (even if he doesn't believe in it).

I believe you're on to something. Yes.

194 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:25pm

re: #166 Maddhouse

Wow, so you approach people and say "excuse me, I noticed that you let your dog poop on a children's athletic field and you didn't clean it up. Are you a Democrat or a Republican"?

Would you be willing to publish your results so far?

195 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:30pm

#144

You are showing your ignorance.. not me.. The point I made is valid.. This looks great.. study it all you want.. call it Ida Obama if you like.. after 30 years we'll see.. I'm in no hurry.. whats your problem with waiting?

? studied science lately I have.. made A's.. have been told By PH D's I'm intelligent.. and humorous.. I usually don't like to get in on line arguments.. but you people eating up all this science break through make me laugh. It's in the bank.. keep it safe.. we don't even disagree.. I believe Darwin is 99.5% right.. God is prob only 94% right.. what you freaks want?

196 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:32pm

re: #177 Machalot

I wonder what kinds of analogies people made before the invention of computers?

I do find it difficult to explain existance with an abacus.

197 Wendya  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:34pm

I'm trying to get a handle on where Rush is coming from on this...

RUSH: See how this is working? I'm playing these sound bites because it isn't just Matthews. I want you to get ready for more of this to come down the pike. See? Republicans don't believe in science. You don't accept science! You Republicans are Neanderthals. So the premise is out there. Whether you're talking about global warming, evolution, regardless, the premise is out there: Republicans are Neanderthals and don't accept it. All Republicans do, have blind faith in God. Now, had I been on the program, this is an easy answer. Matthews' question: "You want to educate the American people about science and its relevance. Do you believe in evolution?"

"Yeah. I believe in evolution."

"Oh, you do? We got a Republican believes in evolution!"

"Yeah, wait, Chris! Wait, though! It can't explain creation. I mean, we've got both. Where did it come from, Chris? Don't give me the Big Bang. Don't give me evolution for the Big Bang. Where did this all come from, what was it before it was what it is? Certainly things evolve. There's no question. There's no denying it. But evolution does not explain creation."


[Link: www.rushlimbaugh.com...]

198 Vicious Babushka  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:49pm

Goodnight, dear Lizards. The ambien is kicking in, and I shouldn't be up and posting here. See you on the Early Morning Thread.

199 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:52pm

re: #177 Machalot

I wonder what kinds of analogies people made before the invention of computers?

I was just reading that one of the first people to propose what we now call an "aquatic ape" hypothesis was Anaximander, a Greek philosopher in 540-something B.C.

I wonder what they knew back then, really, and how much has been lost.

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:58pm

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

One of my great grandfathers tried to join the Klan at one point. No lemur has ever done anything like that. Lemur violence is limited to some restrained biting and wrassling over mates and good fruit trees, and is never racially motivated.

I don't know what the revulsion is about. I kind of like the idea that I have relatives going all the way back, that human history is so long and complicated. And lemurs are quite pretty, as well.

A lot of people seem to fear that if God's work is more complicated than simply doing everything by big flashy magic, the way we imagined when we read Bible stories as little kids--if it is so complex and nuanced and hard to understand that we begin to realize we'll never put the whole picture together--that somehow makes it less special. I say more special.

201 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:22:59pm

re: #190 Cato the Elder

So, what is the consensus here on human intelligence? Does it exist?

At times I despair.

202 Rich H  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:23:37pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

But if someone can make a human, why is it so hard to believe that someone made Him?

203 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:02pm

re: #175 Maddhouse

Only the blog sort.

BTW, contribute to the topic, or make a joke, but - when you're new, anyway - cool your jets in the attempt to hijack things to your interests.

204 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:29pm

re: #184 MandyManners

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

205 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:39pm

re: #190 Cato the Elder

So, what is the consensus here on human intelligence? Does it exist?

Some days, I think not.

206 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:40pm

re: #183 Sharmuta

It's like mathematics, try and reduce the problem you have "solved" before, that way the troll can recycle its slanders.

207 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:24:41pm

re: #198 Alouette

Goodnight, dear Lizards. The ambien is kicking in, and I shouldn't be up and posting here. See you on the Early Morning Thread.

Too bad. We may be looking at a three-meltdown thread here. Doesn't happen all that often.

Ah, but Ambien is like your mom: when it tells you it's time for bed, you'd better go if you know what's good for you.

208 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:49pm

re: #160 Dianna

You're more generous than I. My take is that Rush's one true core belief is in his ability to mint gold out of pandering to other people's basest fears and hatreds. But then I have my own prejudices - against shouting, for one.

By the way, did you see my Dhalgren reply on the last thread?

209 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:50pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

A lot of people seem to fear that if God's work is more complicated than simply doing everything by big flashy magic, the way we imagined when we read Bible stories as little kids--if it is so complex and nuanced and hard to understand that we begin to realize we'll never put the whole picture together--that somehow makes it less special. I say more special.

G-d's message to us: "TRY HARDER, DUMMIES!"

The lemur hole is a lot deeper than ze Germans would have us believe.

210 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:25:50pm

re: #186 flyingcloud

Better yet, could we have created computers without pastafarianism?

211 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:13pm

re: #194 Last Mohican

I do, I thought it would be entertaining. Of course there is more conversation involved that that, just to make it seem less like a poll.

212 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:34pm

re: #180 MandyManners

Are you really asserting that Christians do not believe in science?

Why, yes, I believe he is!

Every Catholic in sight should jump him, just for amusement's sake.

213 ronsfi  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:26:43pm

Truly, we have a tenuous grasp on Civilization.

214 fizzlogic  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:12pm

Most of the craziness flows from the pro-life movement. IMO, Reagan made a huge mistake making that a cause for the GOP. During the primaries leading up to the '06 election, Randall Terry ran against my current state senator as the true Reagan conservative. He lost, thankfully. But it's obvious like minded people have won in other districts across the country, like in South Carolina. And it was the Illinois GOP that brought Alan Keyes in to run against Barack Obama.

215 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:19pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

Yeah, I'm a fucking bitch. What of it?

216 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:20pm

re: #208 Cato the Elder

By the way, did you see my Dhalgren reply on the last thread?

No, I'm afraid I didn't. Pardon me while I go look.

217 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:33pm

*yawn*

Was there a basketball game tonight?

218 bosforus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:37pm

re: #107 Dan G.

I'll disagree with you on this part. I read this as "I haven't read a god-damned thing, but I'm just going to try and waste someone who has read about it's time and then just call bullshit on it anyway". What's more, his rant about classification and misstatement of easily attainable facts (directly in the entry for this article) lends further credence to my judgment.

As someone who has not done much research on the subject I must cede you the more informed analysis! I was just armchairin' his statement.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:27:54pm

re: #64 The Shadow Do

Rush has been completely up front regarding his lack of college experience. I think that is perfectly fine when evaluating politics, etc. He is obviously a very bright man.

On the other hand a science class or two would not have hurt him one bit on a subject like this.

Common sense will get you far in many a situation. THe problem is when you start to think that common sense means that whatever is most appealing to you is automatically true.

220 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:28:19pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

One of my great grandfathers tried to join the Klan at one point. No lemur has ever done anything like that. Lemur violence is limited to some restrained biting and wrassling over mates and good fruit trees, and is never racially motivated.

I don't know what the revulsion is about. I kind of like the idea that I have relatives going all the way back, that human history is so long and complicated. And lemurs are quite pretty, as well.

A lot of people seem to fear that if God's work is more complicated than simply doing everything by big flashy magic, the way we imagined when we read Bible stories as little kids--if it is so complex and nuanced and hard to understand that we begin to realize we'll never put the whole picture together--that somehow makes it less special. I say more special.

And I like to think that at some deep, far distant genetic level, I am related to my dog, who is a far better person than I'll ever be.

221 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:28:45pm

re: #195 BingoBunny

I'm seriously worried about your sanity.

222 prime_minister_of_sinister  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:29:04pm

re: #161 MandyManners

Did his tone betray anything?

I'm sorry. I don't understand your question and how it pertains to what you highlighted in my post.

Could you please elaborate?

223 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:29:31pm

re: #210 Dan G.

Better yet, could we have created computers without pastafarianism?

I admit it, I had to look it up. Now I know.

224 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:29:40pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

If you posted here often enough you'd know that MandyManners doesn't suffer rude. But many of us already have you dead to rights as a sleeper.

225 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:23pm

re: #212 Dianna

Why, yes, I believe he is!

Every Catholic in sight should jump him, just for amusement's sake.

Count me in! I've got a pair of brass knuckles blessed by Padre Pio!

226 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:49pm

re: #142 ggt

It doesn't help that radical athiests with PhD's are pushing atheism. I listened to a book talk by Richard Dawkins and was truly offended. He had absolutely no respect for the belief system of others. I can see how those truly religious and uneducated-in-basic-science people out there would flock to Creationism after hearing him.

I think he is hurting science.

Agreed. Dawkins should back off. He does hurt the cause of science when he tries to use it as a weapon against religion.

227 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:30:57pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

Do you walk into biker bar, and say out loud people with tattoos suck?

You walk in her with 3 posts is 7 months, drop a turd and expect us all to get the joke?

228 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:31:03pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

Only when it's deserved. And you're trying my patience, as well.

229 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:31:20pm

re: #193 Fearless Fred

I believe you're on to something. Yes.

For example, when he was trying to debunk the idea that global warming has intensified hurricanes, he kept insisting that if we didn't have the ability to go out there and stop the hurricane, then by definition we couldn't have caused it. Even though we didn't cause more intense hurricanes, that's obviously a fallacy.

230 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:31:32pm

re: #221 Dianna

I'm seriously worried about your sanity.

OMG Good night all.. I'll be called Hitler next lmao

231 Maddhouse  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:19pm

re: #203 Dianna

Sorry, the comments seemed to be all over the place, and since there seemed to be some contrary opinions posted regarding the original topic I thought it would be interesting to see the data.

No argument or "FIRE" intentions were meant by the post. I am always astounded when people cant just say yeah or nay without any qualifications, anger, or any bickering. I thought this might be a place to just get an answer not the debate.

I now know better and will refrain in the future. Sincere apologies.

232 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:38pm

re: #223 Last Mohican

Yea! I've done good witnessen'!

233 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:32:55pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

Affable.

Hmm.

Try affiger. Hint: it's a German adjective. Du bist ein affiger Kerl, und dumm dazu.

234 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:14pm

re: #69 Machalot

Believe it or not, there is a group that believes in literal geocentrism on the basis that the Catholic Church once taught it, and the Church is infallible.

I hate to ask this--I have a feeling I am about to get in over my head--but how do they reconcile that with the fact that the Church now believes in a heliocentric solar system, and the Church is still infallible? Is the Church lying to them? Did we used to have a better Church?

235 Westward Ho  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:32pm

A vainglorious JackA$$.

236 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:35pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

I think what you witnessed was a bit of affable humor. Are you always this inimical?

Word to the new guy: Don't smart off to Mandy like that. She'll rip your fucking head off (the f-bomb was dropped because she often drops said bomb).

237 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:33:38pm

re: #223 Last Mohican

I admit it, I had to look it up. Now I know.

You have been touched by his noodely appendage!

238 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:34:09pm

re: #231 Maddhouse

I can smell your disingenuous flop sweat from here on the other side of my computer screen.

239 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:35:02pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

I hate to ask this--I have a feeling I am about to get in over my head--but how do they reconcile that with the fact that the Church now believes in a heliocentric solar system, and the Church is still infallible? Is the Church lying to them? Did we used to have a better Church?

They believe the church has lost its way or some such thing. They say the current church is not the "true" church, and they are the last outpost of salvation, just like the Catholics who reject Vatican II.

240 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:35:42pm

re: #231 Maddhouse

Good.

Look, hot button social issues are hot-buttons here, too.

If you're not a sleeper/troll, watch your manners.

241 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:00pm

re: #231 Maddhouse

No -- for you there won't be any future at LGF. See ya!

242 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:16pm

re: #204 Maddhouse

keep posting dude.
this is fun.
you are going down faster than a $20.00 whore at a bachlor party

243 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:36:25pm

re: #230 BingoBunny

OMG Good night all.. I'll be called Hitler next lmao

Settle down, BB. You've been here a long time and your karma is still quite good. Come on back tomorrow and talk to us about the issue. We do want you around.

244 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:24pm

re: #241 Charles

No -- for you there won't be any future at LGF. See ya!

I will refrain. I will refrain. I will refra....

Oh, hell!

*Snicker*

245 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:25pm

re: #241 Charles

No -- for you there won't be any future at LGF. See ya!

Sock?

246 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:45pm

Wow, this one is really flushing them out.

247 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:37:49pm

re: #244 Dianna

I will refrain. I will refrain. I will refra....

Oh, hell!

*Snicker*

I warned him......

248 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:06pm

re: #246 Charles

Wow, this one is really flushing them out.

No surprise.

249 mich-again  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:15pm

I am pretty convinced the creationism-evolution non-debate is more about ignorance than kookieness. First, its a non-debate. There's no debating in science. The Wedgies make idiots of themselves every time they try. Second, because of their ignorance lots of people think it all boils it all down to "Evolution = Atheism" and they will parrot any talking points that soothe their ignorance-induced cognitive dissonance.

I don't think the best answer for the GOP is a fight over this topic, just more education about the difference between evolution and abiogenesis. Then for the Young-Earthies who still don't get it, they deserve ridicule for their scientific beliefs.

250 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:21pm

re: #220 Cato the Elder

And I like to think that at some deep, far distant genetic level, I am related to my dog, who is a far better person than I'll ever be.

We mammals are all related in a real way. Study human and animal skeletons from an artist's POV, and you'll find that the similarities are much stronger than the differences.

What floors me is epochs of geologic time and the changes that took place within them. I didn't know that at one point, the whole world resembled Dagoba from Star Wars. This planet has been made and re-made so many times... And then there's the fact that a million years from now, most of the eastern half of the continental U.S. will be gone. Everything I've ever known will be underwater.

It makes life a litte more meaningful, IMO.

251 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:21pm

re: #241 Charles

No -- for you there won't be any future at LGF. See ya!

And we have our first meltdown at number #231. The troll has been put on the fire and he'll be done in 20 minutes. I'll now take soda and side dish orders. :)

252 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:31pm

This "one species can't evolve into another" argument that Rush alludes to is certainly an argument used by people who are uncomfortable with the implications of Darwin's application to humans of the theory of evolution by means of natural selection.

But logically, once you accept that evolution occurs, even within a species, what's to prevent a group splitting off from that species from changing so radically that we eventually call its descendants a new species?

You can't Zeno's Paradox your way out of it.

253 flyingcloud  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:33pm

re: #191 Machalot
I am not. We are God's creation. Those who worship Him will immitate Him.
Jesus said in John 5:19-24
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

God is continuely creating and we who love Him continuely hearing and copying what He does towards ever increasing glory.

254 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:34pm

re: #247 jcm

I warned him......

Indeed, you did.

Actually, a number of us did.

He chose that one.

255 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:38:37pm

re: #222 prime_minister_of_sinister

I'm sorry. I don't understand your question and how it pertains to what you highlighted in my post.

Could you please elaborate?

You said his tone of voice was two-dimensional and flat. Did you perceive it to mean that he was fully behind what he was saying or, that he was just saying it?

256 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:39:06pm

re: #230 BingoBunny

Godwin strikes again!

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:39:13pm

re: #147 Rich H

Perhaps it is.

An interesting thing that I noticed watching WW II documentaries: Many Americans at that time characterized Japanese as "monkeys." And I also saw evidence that the Japanese during that war characterized Americans/Europeans as monkeys as well.

Racists agree with each other on their common ancestor!

I read somewhere--check before quoting me--that Chinese legend has it that the Japanese are descended from a Chinese princess who was raped by an ape, and fled to the islands to give birth to a hybrid child.

We can SEE that we look like apes, we just insist that the other guys look a little MORE like them.

258 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:39:27pm

re: #241 Charles

No -- for you there won't be any future at LGF. See ya!

re: #242 rain of lead

dang, 16 sec too late

259 SeafoodGumbo  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:14pm

re: #200 SanFranciscoZionist

...

A lot of people seem to fear that if God's work is more complicated than simply doing everything by big flashy magic, the way we imagined when we read Bible stories as little kids--if it is so complex and nuanced and hard to understand that we begin to realize we'll never put the whole picture together--that somehow makes it less special. I say more special.

That's interesting - hurt pride because someone can't fit the explanation onto a postcard to mail to themselves. You could almost say it's also arrogance - since I can't understand it, we have to throw it away for something that I can understand.

260 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:35pm

re: #234 SanFranciscoZionist

I hate to ask this--I have a feeling I am about to get in over my head--but how do they reconcile that with the fact that the Church now believes in a heliocentric solar system, and the Church is still infallible? Is the Church lying to them? Did we used to have a better Church?

I confess that I'm no expert on this, and I didn't peruse those links very carefully.

But I became introduced to this idea when I learned about Hutton Gibson, Mel Gibson's father. Like his son, he's a despicable anti-Semitic freak. He writes books and gives speeches denying the holocaust, among other bizarre ideas. He considers himself a Catholic, but he believes that the Second Vatical Council was a "Masonic plot backed by the Jews," and he rejects the reforms that it brought about, believing that every pope since the council is, in fact, a pretender and not a real pope.

I guess my point is, there are people out there who consider themselves Catholics, yet reject the doctrine of the Catholic Church.

261 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:43pm
262 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:45pm

re: #252 Dar ul Harb

Oooh! Can we play with Xeno for a while? That's one of my favorite paradoxes, and always has been.

I stayed awake all night when I was six because of it. It just fascinated my little kid brain.

263 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:40:51pm

re: #246 Charles

Wow, this one is really flushing them out.

The GOP is in complete disarray. Rush is the voice of the GOP.

*bangs head on keyboard*

264 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:05pm

Well there's no doubt about it, Charles would appear to be right here: Rush is a creationist. I don't know if Rush wants Creationism taught in our Public Schools - as does the Disco Institute - as part of science classes, but it seems to me that Rush was making a few Rhetorical flourishes here as well and used the Creationism meme for his introduction which he ended with

but I’m more interested in some other missing link. And that is the missing link between our failing economy and prosperity.

and then continued with

How many thousands or millions of years will it be before somebody makes the connection to our failing economy and prosperity, Barack Obama? If we're looking for missing links, let's look for him, because right now he's getting no blame, no coverage whatsoever, as being instrumental in the drop in American prosperity, as the decline in all elements of the American economy. It is his economy. Nobody wants to connect it to him yet. It's not just Obama. It's Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid as well. It's one of these things; economy is going to go to hell in a handbasket further, and we wonder how long it will take for the missing link to that to be discovered outside of this program, the missing link there being Barack Obama.

And while I do not denigrate the creationist crap that preceded his first remark about Obama quoted above, and while I have said many times out here that I do think a belief in God and a belief in Evolution are not inherently contradictory and I DO NOT WANT Creationism taught in our public schools, I think a lot of what he was saying was by way of introducing or "preparing" his listeners to the longer quote I referenced above: he's really after Obama.

265 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:17pm

re: #253 flyingcloud

We've got some serious witnessin' going on this time! What fun!

266 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:31pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

And we have our first meltdown at number #231. The troll has been put on the fire and he'll be done in 20 minutes. I'll now take soda and side dish orders. :)

A tumbler of Basil Hayden and a baked potato with sour cream, butter, chives, bacon and a smidgen of colby sprinkled on top.

267 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:47pm
268 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:41:59pm

re: #265 Dan G.

We've got some serious witnessin' going on this time! What fun!

Methinks he's about to get a ride on the catapult.

269 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:42:32pm

re: #261 flyingcloud

I'm going to enjoy watching you get banned.

Jerk!

270 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:42:56pm
271 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:42:56pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Definitely after its last comment (ever! ;) )

272 Rich H  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:00pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

I read somewhere--check before quoting me--that Chinese legend has it that the Japanese are descended from a Chinese princess who was raped by an ape, and fled to the islands to give birth to a hybrid child.

We can SEE that we look like apes, we just insist that the other guys look a little MORE like them.

Sometimes racism is based more on similarities than differences!

273 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:12pm

re: #253 flyingcloud

Sock puppet for 'cantrecant', who did exactly the same kind of proselytizing.

274 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:25pm

re: #263 Racer X

The GOP is in complete disarray. Rush is the voice of the GOP.

*bangs head on keyboard*

Not by me, but hey! who cares? Let's have some fun.

275 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:27pm

re: #263 Racer X

The GOP is in complete disarray. Rush is the voice of the GOP.

*bangs head on keyboard*

I throw a dozen new keyboards in Fedex in the morning for ya'....

Next few years are gonna' be hard on keyboards....

Note to self, buy keyboard stocks.

276 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:35pm

re: #253 flyingcloud

Are you saying that a Christian cannot believe in science?

277 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:46pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

I read somewhere--check before quoting me--that Chinese legend has it that the Japanese are descended from a Chinese princess who was raped by an ape, and fled to the islands to give birth to a hybrid child.

We can SEE that we look like apes, we just insist that the other guys look a little MORE like them.

I had heard that story....but in relation to the chinese and Koreans.... I imagine that it's fairly widespread in a number of cultures, especially if they're closed off to outsiders.

278 Cato the Elder  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:43:53pm

Maddhouse all credibility with the dog-poop poll.

Any fool knows that one in five people thus challenged would grab him by his pencil neck, drag him over to the scene of the crime and rub his nose in it.

279 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:00pm

re: #271 Dan G.

Definitely after its last comment (ever! ;) )

There he goes! Over the wall and over the moat! //

280 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:07pm

re: #261 flyingcloud

Buh-bye.....

281 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:10pm

Socks don't go on the troll BBQ, right? Right, yeah, because barbecued socks would be nasty.

/this is why I'm not a cook

282 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:14pm

re: #267 Machalot

Quoth not the troll, lest it stick to thy face!

283 BingoBunny  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:44pm

I can't let that be my last word.. all my comments have just tried to raise a few little points.. much as I like this to be true.. it has a big smell test I won't overcome in one day or several 100..

People its encased in Plastic.. nothing? chirp chirp

I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.. slight problem see.. it was covered in all this plastic.. and the State needs 50 billion dollars to have Union workers clean it off.. but I'm sure a go getter Capitalist like you can find a cleaning crew who work for minimum wage who will do it for half that.. Soooo the Bridge is yours for only 25 million.. what ya say?

284 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:44pm

re: #268 Gus 802

Methinks he's about to get a ride on the catapult.

Why does the YouTube video of that squirrel come to mind?

285 NY Nana  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:44:46pm

re: #243 Dark_Falcon

Any gratuitous mention of *itler(may his name and memory be obliterated) is obscene, and not the least bit funny to me. He went for a cheap remark that was both dumb and unfeeling.

286 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:10pm

re: #169 SeafoodGumbo

I dunno. I'd imagine that black people would be more likely to be creationists as they seem to take a more literal view of the Bible, at least from what I've seen.

It's kind of a bummer to see the world moving towards superstition. I hadn't thought this creationist stuff was that popular, but it looks like I was wrong. Between that on the right and all the environmental bs on the left, science is taking a drubbing from all sides.

My very aggressively anti-evolution students have largely been black, and I think it's definitely something they get from church. (White kids who go to the same type of churches scored similarly on hostility to evolution. But I have fewer of them in the classroom, due to local population factors.)

287 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:10pm

re: #282 Dan G.

Quoth not the troll, lest it stick to thy face!

Doh. I'm a newb.

288 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:31pm

re: #253 flyingcloud

The fact that the universe is God's creation (which I agree it is) does not preclude evolution. God wrote the rules by which the universe runs, but our seeking out these rules does not show a lack of faith. It simply shows a desire to learn.

289 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:33pm

re: #284 MandyManners

Why does the YouTube video of that squirrel come to mind?

Never saw that video. Sounds funny.

290 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:47pm

re: #283 BingoBunny

Huh? You are a raving lunatic.

291 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:45:47pm

re: #267 Machalot

Idiot!

1) Don't quote remarks bound for deletion.

2) The insult is one aimed at Jews - it's simple, vile, irredentist anti-semitism. If you don't know that, you're no better than the troll.

292 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:47pm

re: #270 Idle Drifter

Don't quote remarks bound to get deleted! Remember?

293 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:46:55pm

re: #261 flyingcloud

Ooooooh! Gotcha! Charles is currently wailing out loud, sitting at his desk with his head in his hands, reduced literally to tears by the devastating, locomotive-like force of your argument!

Either that or your pathetic, meandering, inarticulate attempts to ramp up to a full-fledged flounce-off have just gotten you banned before you even managed to reach your little dumbass climax. Bummer. Better luck with your next sock puppet.

294 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:19pm

re: #284 MandyManners

Why does the YouTube video of that squirrel come to mind?

Because the squirrel keeps coming back for more?

295 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:20pm

re: #291 Dianna

OT, gratuitous, and not really a reply....but I love the "secret squirrel" pic...adorable!

296 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:24pm

re: #289 Gus 802

Never saw that video. Sounds funny.

This squirrel climbs up into what looks like a laundry basket on somebody's deck. Next thing you know, he's flying through the air.

297 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:33pm

WOW - fast Charles, really fast (and of course good):
flyingcloud
This user is blocked.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Karma: -4
Registered since: Nov 5, 2005 at 3:52 pm


No. of comments posted: 40
No. of links posted: 0
I will NEVER, EVER understand how these sleeper moby's or trolls or whatever, can wait so patiently before they jump in with a truly snarky attack on Charles and LGF!

298 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:37pm

re: #292 Dianna

Palm... meet head (look the comment immediately after yours. ;) )

299 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:38pm

re: #291 Dianna

Idiot!

1) Don't quote remarks bound for deletion.

2) The insult is one aimed at Jews - it's simple, vile, irredentist anti-semitism. If you don't know that, you're no better than the troll.

You're treating me a little harshly, don't you think?

300 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:41pm

re: #279 Gus 802

There he goes! Over the wall and over the moat! //

Now drop a Trojan Rabbit on him.

Youtube Video
301 jorline  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:45pm

re: #175 Maddhouse

Vindictive crowd - ouch - Should I start believing in Karma?

No....just reincarnation.

302 NY Nana  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:47:57pm

re: #269 Dianna

I'm going to enjoy watching you get banned.

Jerk!

You can open your eyes! He turned into a rain cloud...bye, bye.

303 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:07pm

re: #283 BingoBunny

You have to be nuts if you think I'm going to let you carry on like this. Bye now.

304 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:23pm

Go Lakers!

305 prime_minister_of_sinister  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:23pm

re: #255 MandyManners

You said his tone of voice was two-dimensional and flat. Did you perceive it to mean that he was fully behind what he was saying or, that he was just saying it?

Not his voice. His Thinking.

306 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:33pm

re: #283 BingoBunny


People its encased in Plastic.. nothing? chirp chirp

Their website has a step-by-step explanation of exactly how and why it's preserved in epoxy and/or fiberglass.

307 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:34pm

re: #212 Dianna

Why, yes, I believe he is!

Every Catholic in sight should jump him, just for amusement's sake.

My dad's Catholic, and I teach at a Catholic school. I'll help out.

308 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:48:43pm

re: #266 MandyManners

A tumbler of Basil Hayden and a baked potato with sour cream, butter, chives, bacon and a smidgen of colby sprinkled on top.

I don't know what Basil Hayden is but I'll certainly get you that baked potato. I've also got 'flyingcloud' over the fire as well, but if these trolls keep showing up like this I'm going to need a bigger grill. :D

309 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:08pm

re: #289 Gus 802

Never saw that video. Sounds funny.

[Link: www.dailyhaha.com...]

310 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:29pm

Two down, one to go.

Stinky's having a busy night.

311 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:38pm

Hate mail already flowing in too.

312 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:42pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

I don't know what Basil Hayden is but I'll certainly get you that baked potato. I've also got 'flyingcloud' over the fire as well, but if these trolls keep showing up like this I'm going to need a bigger grill. :D

I'll loan ya the converted 55 gal drum we use at work for cookouts...that oughta hold some

313 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:49:55pm

re: #310 Last Mohican

Two down, one to go.

Stinky's having a busy night.

Oops, spoke too soon. Show's over now.

314 NY Nana  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:00pm

re: #293 Last Mohican

He has now flown over the Cuckoo's Nest. ;)

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:06pm

re: #239 Machalot

They believe the church has lost its way or some such thing. They say the current church is not the "true" church, and they are the last outpost of salvation, just like the Catholics who reject Vatican II.

Ah, those guys. Gotcha.

316 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:09pm

re: #299 Machalot

You're treating me a little harshly, don't you think?

Simma' down now. Feelings get heated pretty quickly around here at times.

Say, how do you like my new laundry basket?

317 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:25pm

re: #295 srb1976

OT, gratuitous, and not really a reply....but I love the "secret squirrel" pic...adorable!

Don't piss off the squirrel...

He has a violin case.... if you get my meaning.

318 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:29pm

re: #309 MandyManners

[Link: www.dailyhaha.com...]

Haha!

I laugh every time I see that.

319 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:50:31pm

re: #292 Dianna

Don't quote remarks bound to get deleted! Remember?

Sorry, won't happen again.

320 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:02pm

I guess the Rush angle is new so we're getting a few extra meltdowns.

321 rain of lead  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:03pm

re: #303 Charles

cap'tn the catapult canna take it anymore, she's overheating!

322 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:06pm

re: #309 MandyManners

[Link: www.dailyhaha.com...]

Ouch!

323 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:10pm

re: #305 prime_minister_of_sinister

Not his voice. His Thinking.

How did you take that?

324 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:11pm

re: #300 Idle Drifter

Damn, it cuts out just before they launch it.

325 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:14pm

Well, there goes the first wave. Next, a hunda, then more trolls.

326 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:31pm

re: #292 Dianna

Don't quote remarks bound to get deleted! Remember?

I made the same rookie mistake. But it seems Charles has a new feature in which the deleted quote gets automatically redacted, while one's reply thereto remains present. Pretty cool.

327 Winslow  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:31pm

Blog Damage
(with apologies to Pink Floyd)

The lunatics are here, alas.
The lunatics are here, alas.
Rehashing lines from ID threads long past;
Got to read the loony posts and laugh.

The lunatics have heard the call.
The lunatics have heard the call.
This topic brings the lurking loonies to the fore,
And every registration day brings more.

And if it seems as though you’ve heard it all before,
And if they just keep crawling through the door,
And if they always sing the same old loony tunes,
The blog is overrun with young-earth loons.

The lunatics are on the thread.
The lunatics are on the thread.
Young-earth creationists, like trolls, should not be fed;
Got to keep the loonies off the thread.
Sit back and GAZE, for they are crazy in the head;
Mustn’t let the loons derail the thread.

And if their talking points ring hollow in your ear,
And when you answer, they don’t seem to hear,
Well then, it’s clear that you’re debating young-earth loons;
You may as well be talking to the moon.

328 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:41pm

re: #299 Machalot

I'm not best pleased with what I've read from you tonight, and don't know you from the past.

Apologies if I'm jumping to conclusions. I missed a couple weeks, and new people may have established themselves in my absence. I am often wrong, but I'm never disappointed.

329 Pygmalienation  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:51:49pm

re: #252 Dar ul Harb

One very interesting group of organisms to observe is the orchids. The group Orchidae is so relatively new on the scene that their genetics are still very fluid. There are many "inter-specific" hybrids in the group. In the tropics--where diversity is greatest, the study of these plants offers a treasure trove for evolutionary biologists/botanists. They're very interesting in that many (most?) have co-evolved alongside very specific insect pollinators. Of course it should be said that with orchids, our idea of what makes a species distinct taxonomically speaking, may need some refinement. In short, the orchid group has fueled the ongoing battle between the "lumpers" and the "splitters" among plant taxonomists.

330 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:03pm

re: #308 Dark_Falcon

I don't know what Basil Hayden is but I'll certainly get you that baked potato. I've also got 'flyingcloud' over the fire as well, but if these trolls keep showing up like this I'm going to need a bigger grill. :D

Basil is fine bourbon. If you ever get a chance to buy it, do.

331 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:05pm

re: #281 Pawn of the Oppressor

Socks don't go on the troll BBQ, right? Right, yeah, because barbecued socks would be nasty.

/this is why I'm not a cook

True, but since BingoBunny got the gate, we can have roast rabbit to go with our BBQ troll. Now, what sides go with roast rabbit?

332 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:14pm

Another Inconvenient Truth touched on by the saga of Ze Frankfurter Lemur - mammal evolution was spurred in part by a big honkin' pile of Global Warming.

AL GORE IS ANTI-MAMMAL

333 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:22pm

re: #311 Charles

Hate mail already flowing in too.

Oh, no. I'm sorry. How really awful for you.

334 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:52:40pm

Rush

Youtube Video
335 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:04pm

re: #328 Dianna

I'm not best pleased with what I've read from you tonight, and don't know you from the past.

Apologies if I'm jumping to conclusions. I missed a couple weeks, and new people may have established themselves in my absence. I am often wrong, but I'm never disappointed.

This is the first time I've participated in commenting on this site. I don't know that I've said anything particularly offensive.

336 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:05pm

re: #320 Killgore Trout

I'm a little surprised by it, myself.

337 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:08pm

re: #311 Charles

Hate mail already flowing in too.

Getting a little testy here too.

You hit a nerve.

338 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:48pm

re: #324 Idle Drifter

Here we go. This time it does show the launching and crashing of the trojan rabbit!

Youtube Video
339 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:53:54pm

re: #327 Winslow

Blog Damage
(with apologies to Pink Floyd)

The lunatics are here, alas.
The lunatics are here, alas.
Rehashing lines from ID threads long past;
Got to read the loony posts and laugh.

The lunatics have heard the call.
The lunatics have heard the call.
This topic brings the lurking loonies to the fore,
And every registration day brings more.

And if it seems as though you’ve heard it all before,
And if they just keep crawling through the door,
And if they always sing the same old loony tunes,
The blog is overrun with young-earth loons.

The lunatics are on the thread.
The lunatics are on the thread.
Young-earth creationists, like trolls, should not be fed;
Got to keep the loonies off the thread.
Sit back and GAZE, for they are crazy in the head;
Mustn’t let the loons derail the thread.

And if their talking points ring hollow in your ear,
And when you answer, they don’t seem to hear,
Well then, it’s clear that you’re debating young-earth loons;
You may as well be talking to the moon.

BRAVO!

340 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:54:06pm

re: #262 Dianna

Oooh! Can we play with Xeno for a while? That's one of my favorite paradoxes, and always has been.

I stayed awake all night when I was six because of it. It just fascinated my little kid brain.

Zeno's Evolutionary Paradox

Well, since any species evolving into another will first have to evolve half the way there, and so on, in an infinite series of stages, evolution is inherently impossible (or an illusion, take your pick).

;)

/

341 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:54:38pm

re: #174 flyingcloud

I firmly believe God did make us and he used the process of evolution to do it

342 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:07pm

re: #332 Pawn of the Oppressor

Wait, are you saying that Darwinism not only was responsible for Hitler and Fidel Castro, but also for Global Warming? DARWIN YOU SATANIC BASTARD!

/s

343 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:09pm

re: #340 Dar ul Harb

Zeno's Evolutionary Paradox

Well, since any species evolving into another will first have to evolve half the way there, and so on, in an infinite series of stages, evolution is inherently impossible (or an illusion, take your pick).

;)

/

Generalized, this really means that any change at all in any aspect of the universe is impossible! So don't worry, Obama can't mess things up too bad.

344 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:18pm

re: #311 Charles

Hate mail already flowing in too.

Should I upding that or not? Which would make you feel better? I don't want you to think I'm approving hate mail...oh, never mind!

345 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:19pm

I am starting to look at really rabid creationism (the kind that says "I believe it and you have to as well") as a sign of seriously shaky faith.

If a person is truly comfortable in their faith they don't need science to confirm or deny, nor do they need other people to agree with them.
Not sure how correct that thinking is, but it seems to fit

346 moonflower  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:36pm

re: #264 realwest

Well there's no doubt about it, Charles would appear to be right here: Rush is a creationist. I don't know if Rush wants Creationism taught in our Public Schools - as does the Disco Institute - as part of science classes, but it seems to me that Rush was making a few Rhetorical flourishes here as well and used the Creationism meme for his introduction which he ended with

And while I do not denigrate the creationist crap that preceded his first remark about Obama quoted above, and while I have said many times out here that I do think a belief in God and a belief in Evolution are not inherently contradictory and I DO NOT WANT Creationism taught in our public schools, I think a lot of what he was saying was by way of introducing or "preparing" his listeners to the longer quote I referenced above: he's really after Obama.

Agreed - I think Rush was "using absurdity to be absurd" in this case. I know he thinks of himself as a christian, but he does not make that part of his program hardly at all.

I have never heard Rush talk like a creationist, ever, and I listen to him every day and have since 1993.

I have heard him say that evolution and a belief in G-D are not mutually exclusive. I come down on that side of the argument as well.

Maybe we can step back a bit and not condemn Rush. Why don't you ask him what he thinks? He reads this blog.

347 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:55:43pm

re: #327 Winslow

Classic!

*stands and applauds*

348 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:56:52pm

re: #342 Last Mohican

Wait, are you saying that Darwinism not only was responsible for Hitler and Fidel Castro, but also for Global Warming? DARWIN YOU SATANIC BASTARD!

/s

Now we know the truth - the real enemy is a dead white guy with a big beard.

Wait, that sounds kinda like everyone's idea of god...!?

349 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:56:52pm

re: #317 jcm

Don't piss off the squirrel...

He has a violin case.... if you get my meaning.

it's a Marlene Dietricht kind of squirrel - she!

350 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:00pm

Here's a lovely one, with the title, "Dude, you've changed"...

Just read your post about Rush. OK. So what? I kind of get your over the
top coverage of those trying to teach creation. But now just having that
point of view is bad? How pure of thought do people have to be to pass
your philosophical purity test?

Do you have a new liberal girlfriend or something? She with-holding the
poon unless you convert?

You're blog's going over the Andrew Sullivan precipice I'm afraid. But,
your choice. Good times.

Toodles.

351 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:09pm

re: #277 srb1976

I had heard that story....but in relation to the chinese and Koreans.... I imagine that it's fairly widespread in a number of cultures, especially if they're closed off to outsiders.

I could also have the details of the story wrong. I think the version I heard was in connection to the war, so it may have been 'relocated' to the Japanese. But it's a bit like what Douglas Adams says about people thinking they're hedgehogs--you give them a mirror and some pictures of hedgehogs and they figure it out. When we look in the mirror and back at the gorilla, we can see that we're on to something here.

352 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:22pm

re: #327 Winslow

Brain Damage- Pink Floyd

Youtube Video
353 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:23pm

That felt funny. The ground just quivered a bit here in DFW... It might just have been a truck outside, but we had an earthquake here on Sunday, too.

354 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:27pm

re: #331 Dark_Falcon

True, but since BingoBunny got the gate, we can have roast rabbit to go with our BBQ troll. Now, what sides go with roast rabbit?

Polenta with sun-dried tomatoes.

355 muddywood  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:58:48pm

snap poll:

Who would you vote for?

Candidate A - a big Goverment liberal that believes in evolution

Candidate B - a small Government fiscal conservative that questions evolution

Candidate C - your "perfect" candidate with zero of winning

356 Randall Gross  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:15pm

re: #175 Maddhouse

No, you shouldn't be leaving your dog poop on the field.

357 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:21pm

re: #345 srb1976

I am starting to look at really rabid creationism (the kind that says "I believe it and you have to as well") as a sign of seriously shaky faith.

If a person is truly comfortable in their faith they don't need science to confirm or deny, nor do they need other people to agree with them.
Not sure how correct that thinking is, but it seems to fit

DING! DING! DING!

We have a winnah'!

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:23pm

re: #278 Cato the Elder

Maddhouse all credibility with the dog-poop poll.

Any fool knows that one in five people thus challenged would grab him by his pencil neck, drag him over to the scene of the crime and rub his nose in it.

I suppose you could ask the people who DID pick the poop up. They would be flattered that their good manners were showing, and might be more willing to answer.

359 jcm  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:30pm

re: #349 Dianna

it's a Marlene Dietricht kind of squirrel - she!

My abject apologies... please latch the violin case now.....

360 Idle Drifter  Tue, May 19, 2009 9:59:49pm

re: #355 muddywood

Ron Paul

361 NY Nana  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:00pm

re: #350 Charles

/Hmmm. No typos.

What an idiot. Hope it has no sharp objects.

362 uptight  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:20pm

American Conservatism is polluted by religion. Perhaps "polluted" is too harsh a term as I have nothing against religion as long as it is kept at home and doesn't interfere with the process of government, but I can't think of a better word.

In essence, Conservatism is about minimising government interference. Generally it succeeds at the task, but when it comes to religious issues it totally loses the plot.

Minimising government should extend to people's private lives, but that's an area that religion can't help interfering in.

It should butt out of the class room (as should liberalism). It should minimise its interference on gun ownership (full marks there) but also abortion, gay marriage and whether to believe in the creation should be left in the hands of individuals. Government has no place being involved in such choices. It should be anathema for Conservative governments and if if was not for the inerference of religion, it surely would be.

This is a huge blind spot for many Conservatives.

363 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:21pm

re: #350 Charles

Despicable.

364 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:28pm

re: #343 Machalot

Generalized, this really means that any change at all in any aspect of the universe is impossible! So don't worry, Obama can't mess things up too bad.

However, it also implies that Obama's term in office, while apparently finite, is actually composed of an infinity of moments during which policy mistakes can be made and implemented. Uh-oh.

365 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:47pm

re: #346 moonflower


I have heard him say that evolution and a belief in G-D are not mutually exclusive. I come down on that side of the argument as well.

Maybe we can step back a bit and not condemn Rush. Why don't you ask him what he thinks? He reads this blog.

Excellent points. I personally don't listen to Rush. Although I've agreed with his positions on many issues, I find him to be an insufferable jackass, and I can't bear to listen to his show. Nevertheless, if he has in the past expressed opinions that are contrary to the ones Charles quoted, then it's worth waiting to see if he would like to offer some clarification. If he actually does read this blog, then maybe he'll offer some spontaneously.

366 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:00:57pm

re: #350 Charles

Here's a lovely one, with the title, "Dude, you've changed"...

Weird stuff. Must be a Dittohead.

367 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:04pm

re: #350 Charles

Oh.

That was rude. Ugh.

368 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:16pm

Every good flounce should end with "toodles".

369 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:17pm

re: #355 muddywood

snap poll:

Who would you vote for?

Candidate A - a big Goverment liberal that believes in evolution

Candidate B - a small Government fiscal conservative that questions evolution

Candidate C - your "perfect" candidate with zero of winning

B because there is nothing wrong with questioning science as long as it's done in the scientific sense.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:20pm

re: #283 BingoBunny

I can't let that be my last word.. all my comments have just tried to raise a few little points.. much as I like this to be true.. it has a big smell test I won't overcome in one day or several 100..

People its encased in Plastic.. nothing? chirp chirp

I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.. slight problem see.. it was covered in all this plastic.. and the State needs 50 billion dollars to have Union workers clean it off.. but I'm sure a go getter Capitalist like you can find a cleaning crew who work for minimum wage who will do it for half that.. Soooo the Bridge is yours for only 25 million.. what ya say?

I say that I feel much better since I got my meds refilled, and you can too!

"People its encased in Plastic.. nothing? chirp chirp"--Are we still doing rotating headers? Cause I like that.

371 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:31pm

re: #350 Charles

That must've been the bunny, it called me "dude" as well.

372 Wendya  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:46pm

re: #362 uptight

American Conservatism is polluted by religion. Perhaps "polluted" is too harsh a term as I have nothing against religion as long as it is kept at home and doesn't interfere with the process of government, but I can't think of a better word.

If you look back through the history of this country, you'd be hard pressed to find any time where religion had less actual influence in government than today.

373 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:01:47pm

re: #359 jcm

My abject apologies... please latch the violin case now.....

My dear jcm, it never came near being unlatched!

374 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:10pm

re: #364 Dar ul Harb

However, it also implies that Obama's term in office, while apparently finite, is actually composed of an infinity of moments during which policy mistakes can be made and implemented. Uh-oh.

But each change can only be infinitesimal.

375 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:44pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

Every good flounce should end with "toodles".

Either that or "Tah Tah!"

376 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:02:45pm

re: #355 muddywood

Who's supposed to be "B", we haven't seen a small govn't republican in quite awhile.

377 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:03:03pm

re: #366 Gus 802

Weird stuff. Must be a Dittohead.

And too dumb to realize that Charles is a jazz musician with metal records on his wall, to boot. Ergo, he would have no trouble with the ladies.

So it's not just a stupid e-mail, it's a double-dog stupid email.

378 MandyManners  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:03:08pm

The bed is calling.

379 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:03:08pm

re: #375 Gus 802

The Aristocrats!

380 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:01pm

The weird thing about all this hatred comin' at me for this post -- I didn't even say anything particularly negative about Rush Limbaugh, just noted the fact that he revealed he's a creationist with those comments.

381 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:12pm

re: #379 Killgore Trout

The Aristocrats!

Brideshead Revisited

/

382 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:14pm

re: #355 muddywood

Nice strawman you've built there.

GAZE

383 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:24pm

re: #374 Machalot

But each change can only be infinitesimal.

Don't make me bring out chaos theory.

:o

384 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:04:24pm

re: #375 Gus 802

Either that or "Tah Tah!"

Wasn't it "tah dah!" I had forgotten about that one. Although "toodles" is truly excellent, I think "tah dah!" will likely stand forever as the all-time best flounce-off closing salutation.

385 Gella  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:07pm

for some reason i wasn't surprised at all, that RL is creationist

386 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:09pm

re: #369 MandyManners

B because there is nothing wrong with questioning science as long as it's done in the scientific sense.

On my end, my question is not so much what a candidate believes...I could really care less....but more can the candidate in question seperate their personal beliefs from their public life. It all boils down to, you can be a creationist if it cranks your tractor, as long as you don't expect to be able to use legislation to try to convert other people's children.

387 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:14pm

re: #384 Last Mohican

Wasn't it "tah dah!" I had forgotten about that one. Although "toodles" is truly excellent, I think "tah dah!" will likely stand forever as the all-time best flounce-off closing salutation.

I was thinking like "tah-tah darling" or like "ciao darling."

388 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:20pm

re: #375 Gus 802

Either that or "Tah Tah!"

TTFN!

389 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:26pm

re: #342 Last Mohican

Wait, are you saying that Darwinism not only was responsible for Hitler and Fidel Castro, but also for Global Warming? DARWIN YOU SATANIC BASTARD!

/s

He hid it really well, too. Loved his children. Acted just like a normal person.

There's a delightful story that in one of Darwin's notebooks he made a pro-con list about getting married. On the con side was 'less money for books'. On the pro, 'friend, and companion for old age...better than a dog, anyway'.

390 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:36pm

re: #355 muddywood

snap poll:

Who would you vote for?

Candidate A - a big Goverment liberal that believes in evolution

Candidate B - a small Government fiscal conservative that questions evolution

Candidate C - your "perfect" candidate with zero of winning

Define "questions". The severity of this "questioning" would determine my choice between B and C. If he's just a little bit ignorant, OK, well, so are most politicians. If he's hired full-blown Darwin-hating screwheads for advisors, then that's different.

391 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:46pm

re: #380 Charles

The weird thing about all this hatred comin' at me for this post -- I didn't even say anything particularly negative about Rush Limbaugh, just noted the fact that he revealed he's a creationist with those comments.

Indeed. You quoted him. You didn't say he lied or misrepresented his intentions. You didn't say he was wrong. You just quoted him.

392 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:05:55pm

re: #368 Killgore Trout

Every good flounce should end with "toodles".

Heh. 'withholding poon'

393 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:06:01pm

re: #383 Dar ul Harb

Don't make me bring out chaos theory.

:o

You mean like this?

394 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:06:56pm

re: #380 Charles

You're the light-bringer... oops, did I just call you Lucifer.
/

395 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:07:08pm

re: #387 Gus 802

Ah, I see.

I'm pretty sure there was an actual hate mail that ended with "tah dah!" though.

If I'm remembering incorrectly, then pay attention, all you trolls who didn't just get banned tonight.

396 Dianna  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:08:27pm

Dog walking and bed.

Goodnight, lizards.

397 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:08:50pm

re: #346 moonflower Something tells me Rush will have something to say about LGF tomorrow - or at least this thread! Too bad he probably won't even read my #629 on the prior thread - more meat there for him, I think.

398 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:03pm

re: #380 Charles

The weird thing about all this hatred comin' at me for this post -- I didn't even say anything particularly negative about Rush Limbaugh, just noted the fact that he revealed he's a creationist with those comments.

Charles, you said the D-word. Nothing else matters. I am starting to figure that out.

Plus, Rush fans are very protective.

399 Dan G.  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:09:15pm

Good night all. Have fun with the second/third waves.

400 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:22pm

re: #398 SanFranciscoZionist

Charles, you said the D-word. Nothing else matters. I am starting to figure that out.

Plus, Rush fans are very protective.

Which word is the D word? I thought I knew all the words....damn

401 Kragar  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:40pm

re: #395 Last Mohican

Ah, I see.

I'm pretty sure there was an actual hate mail that ended with "tah dah!" though.

If I'm remembering incorrectly, then pay attention, all you trolls who didn't just get banned tonight.

As long as we avoid a "Sa Da Tay!", we should be safe

402 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:10:41pm

re: #400 srb1976

Which word is the D word? I thought I knew all the words....damn

Darwin!

403 Kulhwch  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:26pm

re: #114 Maddhouse

I'm curious and too lazy right now to search the archives, what is the consensus here on abortion?

Moms of sockpuppets should have had one?

}:)     [Just sayin' ... ]

404 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:44pm

re: #350 Charles I know it's hard Charles, but you really have to let the more looney and hate filled e-mails you receive get the delete, empy trash buttons VERYQUICKLY.
Really sorry you have to go through all this. All you did say was that Rush is a Creationist. You didn't say he was trying to have ID taught in the public schools or anything like that - so why all the damn hate?

405 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:48pm

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

Ah.... you would think, living where I do, that would have occurred to me

/buckle of the bible belt = )

406 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:11:48pm

re: #402 SanFranciscoZionist

Darwin!

Darwin! Marx! Sanger! Homosexuality!

//

407 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:12:35pm

re: #406 Gus 802

Darwin! Marx! Sanger! Homosexuality!

//

Wash your mouth out with soap, young man!

408 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:13:17pm

re: #406 Gus 802

Darwin! Marx! Sanger! Homosexuality!

//

Sounds like a fascinating dinner conversation.

409 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:13:44pm

re: #407 SanFranciscoZionist

Wash your mouth out with soap, young man!

Uh oh, now I need an exorcism!

Anyone have Bobby J's phone number?

//

410 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:14:02pm

I found it! I found it!

Ta Da!

Even now, it still brings tears to my eyes.

411 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:14:14pm

re: #393 Machalot

I hope he flails.

412 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:15:01pm

re: #395 Last Mohican
Hello my friend - please - y'all almost gave me a heart attack with that one! I use "Ta-Da" sometimes in my comments! LOL!
In fact, I almost used one in my #629 in the prior post but thought better of it!

413 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:15:56pm

re: #410 Last Mohican

I found it! I found it!

Ta Da!

Even now, it still brings tears to my eyes.

Ta Da! That always reminds me of Bugs Bunny and magic tricks. Either that or the old wav file sound when you shut down Windows 98.

Ta Da!

414 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:01pm

re: #411 Dar ul Harb

I hope he flails.

Gasp! How unpatriotic!

415 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:08pm

re: #410 Last Mohican
HEY - did ya have to post that after my #412!

416 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:10pm

CNN headline: Fossil common ancestor of monkeys, humans?

Do they really need to add the question mark? As much as the religious right bitches they still get the same PC treatment as everyone else.

417 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:51pm

re: #412 realwest

Good evening realwest! Good to see you back around these parts.

I'm going to have to remember to say "ta da!" more often. Not just in LGF posts, but in everyday conversation too.

418 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:16:54pm

You're not a Real Scientist unless you can prove cross species evolution. Ta Da!

419 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:17:33pm

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

420 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:17:58pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

Not in the public schools, no.

421 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:18:37pm

I sense a burgeoning 'cousins' joke...

422 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:19:26pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

Why I don't know if that is them there illegal but it sure sounds like it should be illegal.

//

423 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:13pm

re: #422 Gus 802

Why I don't know if that is them there illegal but it sure sounds like it should be illegal.

//

Doesn't it just? And I don't even know what it is.

424 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:15pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

Them monkeys was askin' for it, dressin' all purty like that.

425 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:28pm

re: #421 BigPapa

I sense a burgeoning 'cousins' joke...

You mean like a family doing their part to keep the gene pool local?

426 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:20:49pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

Not in this one

I still remember Sunday School and grandma's church and her proudly teaching the little kids to sing "I ain't no kin to a monkey"..... but for all that, she did always believe that it was subject for sunday school....not elementary school

427 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:21:20pm

re: #424 Pawn of the Oppressor

Them monkeys was askin' for it, dressin' all purty like that.

Plus sometimes they get that musky smell and they smell all purty like.

//

428 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:21:52pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist

Is cross-species evolution legal in southern states?

In all seriousness, I get the impression that evolution-"skeptics" seem to think the species were pre-established boundaries, and that evolution holds that it was only a matter of time before a monkey had a mutation that crossed it from "monkey" into "human".

429 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:21pm

re: #426 srb1976

Not in this one

I still remember Sunday School and grandma's church and her proudly teaching the little kids to sing "I ain't no kin to a monkey"..... but for all that, she did always believe that it was subject for sunday school....not elementary school

Really? A song? I ain't no kin to a monkey?

430 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:37pm

American scientific leadership has been achieved at heart-breaking cost over the past 200 years. We are in real danger now of losing that leadership, thanks to a pack of cynical creationist charlatans and their schemes to profit from ignorance, with the Republican Party hijacked and turned into a carnival/market for their lowest common denominator foolishness.

It may be cold comfort, but we will at least not be losing our leadership to the Europeans, whose own scientific establishment is also being undermined by creationist saboteurs and a veritable zoo of other quacks.

They don't seem to have creationists in China and Japan, though. *gulp*

431 Bob Dillon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:44pm

re: #56 Thanos

First off, it's not a "toe bone", it's a whole fricking skeleton.
Second, it's 47 MYA, not 45
Third, it's Adopoidea, not a monkey.

Late to the party ... been digging into the "Link" website ...

It's her talus bone that is the major link to us.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

From "The Link" Press Release.

[Link: www.revealingthelink.com...]

Evidence in the talus bone links Ida to us. The bone has the same shape as in
humans today. Only the human talus is obviously bigger. X-rays, CT scanning and
computer tomography reveal Ida to be about nine months old when she died,
and provide clues to her diet which included berries and plants. Furthermore
the lack of a bacculum (penis bone) means that the fossil was definitely female.

Rush might consider doing some deeper due diligence before shooting from the hip.

BS this is not.

432 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:47pm

I'm not in the anti-evolution camp by any means, but they've been searching for the missing link for so long that I can't help but wonder whether Darwinius masillae is going to turn out to be the paleontological Fleischman-Pons. They said they were able to tell what Ida's last meal was. Could they tell whether she was on Xanax?

433 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:23:57pm

re: #417 Last Mohican
Well I hope you do! It's actually a fine way to introduce something that was bound to happen. That's why I almost used it in my comment 629, prior thread!
Here's another one I picked up in conversation with someone - used sarcastically of course "Why that's just swell." Or "He (She) is just Swell!" Don't know why but that and "ta da" bring a smile to my face!

434 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:24:31pm

re: #429 Gus 802

Really? A song? I ain't no kin to a monkey?

Really..... I promise it's true...sad...but true

435 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:24:37pm

More evidence of increasing isolationism on the right.....
Quotes of the day

I no longer understand Ap's posts.

436 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:25:40pm

re: #428 Machalot

In all seriousness, I get the impression that evolution-"skeptics" seem to think the species were pre-established boundaries, and that evolution holds that it was only a matter of time before a monkey had a mutation that crossed it from "monkey" into "human".

OK, I think I get that.

437 Racer X  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:25:45pm

Shock The Monkey

438 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:25:51pm

"you mean to tell me I came from some puddle of goo?"

"you mean to tell me I came from some 47 million year old monkey?"

... .. ... .. ... . . .... . ... . .. (crickets).... .... . . . . .... . ..

"you mean to tell me I came from some thunderbolt of lightning that came from some old guy in a robe that looks like Charlton Heston?"

TA FRICKEN DA!

439 NY Nana  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:02pm

/Jimmy Kimmel is a great soporific.

I am off to sleep, before my head hits the keyboard!

Sweet dreams and g'nite, all!

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:05pm

re: #426 srb1976

Not in this one

I still remember Sunday School and grandma's church and her proudly teaching the little kids to sing "I ain't no kin to a monkey"..... but for all that, she did always believe that it was subject for sunday school....not elementary school

Can I find the words out there...?

I'll Google.

441 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:20pm

re: #414 Machalot

Gasp! How unpatriotic!

Dont'cha mean nonperiodic?

442 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:30pm
443 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:43pm

It's really pretty pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, people like Rush Limbaugh get on the radio and say "it's all BS," and tell their admirers it's meaningless.

It DOES mean something. This should be a day when all Americans -- all human beings -- are proud of what we can accomplish through science and research, and instead we have much of the Republican Party bitching about it as if it's a personal affront to them.

Just pathetically sad.

444 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:26:59pm

re: #419 SanFranciscoZionist Why would you wonder about it being illegal in just Southern States? Have you taken a really good look at Nancy Polosi these days? Huh? How about Cynthia McKinney?
I thought not!

445 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:27:13pm

re: #434 srb1976

Really..... I promise it's true...sad...but true

I believe you. Just think it's both odd and fascinating in a Spock like way.

446 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:27:53pm

re: #442 GT Charlie

Buh-bye

447 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:28:03pm

re: #440 SanFranciscoZionist

Can I find the words out there...?

I'll Google.

try...it's been years and I don't remember much but the first line goes "I ain't no kin to a monkey, Monkey's no kin to me" And they teach it to little kids (think kindergarten age) at sunday school.....like I said, it's been years

448 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:29:24pm

re: #444 realwest

Why would you wonder about it being illegal in just Southern States? Have you taken a really good look at Nancy Polosi these days? Huh? How about Cynthia McKinney?
I thought not!

You think Nancy Pelosi wants to outlaw cross-species evolution? Or that she's a product of it? Not following.

449 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:30:03pm

Damn. Husband is starting the disc of Criminal Minds. Got to go.

Night all.

450 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:30:04pm

re: #447 srb1976

Here it is with Dubbya graphics.....

Youtube Video
451 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:23pm

re: #429 Gus 802

Really? A song? I ain't no kin to a monkey?

I'm impressed too. Maybe there needs to be a pro-evolution song, too. Let's all get right to work on that.

Yes, a monkey is my kin
But I can't go back agin'
That adenine's a thymine now
No matter where it's been!

452 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:25pm

re: #436 SanFranciscoZionist

OK, I think I get that.

That's how they distinguish between micro- and macro-evolution. In reality, it's more like this: If you and I have compasses, and yours is off 0.01 degrees east and mine is off 0.01 degrees west, neither of us has a "macro" error. But if we start from the same point and each use those compasses to walk 3000 miles across the United States, we'll end up about a mile apart and out of earshot, effectively at different destinations and unable to find each other without a cell phone. That analogous to being different species.

453 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:28pm

Charles, WHY DO YOU HATE RUSH LIMBAUGH?

454 tokyobk  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:31:35pm

I was glancing off at the marble fireplace in my office as I have done for years, but now the swirls seemed to have design not just shape-- sure enough, shells and trillibites frozen in the stone.

455 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:32:10pm

re: #442 GT Charlie

Said the troll as he flounced to the exit. On that note, let's hear a buzzsawmonkey classic:

Flounce to the Exit
--to the tune of "Waltzing Mathilda"

Once a jolly moby registered to comment here
Waited and lurked upon threads patiently
And he sang as he watched and waited for his exit cue,
"You'll see me flounce to the exit shortly."

"Flounce to the exit
Flounce to the exit
I'm going to flounce to the exit shortly"
And he sang as he watched and waited for his exit cue,
"You'll see me flounce to the exit shortly."

Up came a thread that took apart creationists
Up came a thread debunking conspiracies
And he sang as his comments became more and more abusive,
"You'll see me flounce to the exit shortly."

"Flounce to the exit
Flounce to the exit
I'm going to flounce to the exit shortly"
And he sang as his comments became more and more abusive,
"You'll see me flounce to the exit shortly."

Up came Charles Johnson with the banning stick in hand
Flanked on his side by formidable Stinky
"May I suggest that you moderate your posting style?
Else I will show you the exit shortly."

"Show you the exit
Show you the exit
Else I will show you the exit shortly
May I suggest that you moderate your posting style?
Else I will show you the exit shortly."

Up reared the moby, and ripped out a parting screed
"Here's what I think--I dare you to ban me!"
But not even a ghost of his words remains on the board
After he flounced to the exit shortly

Flounced to the exit
Flounced to the exit
Leaving a rant behind for all to see
But not even a ghost of his words remains on the board
After he flounced to the exit shortly

456 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:32:21pm

re: #443 Charles Well Charles I have to say I'm sorta surprised this discovery was kept under wraps. According to IDA's page, forsenic work has been done on her fossil for over two years and there's a book already out and a movie already out!
Sceintists know when to shut up and when to proceed to make announcements: when they have the "evidence" fully examined and authenticated!
Uh, oh. Damn, hope you don't get hate mail over some scientific community plot now!

457 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:33:41pm

re: #450 Killgore Trout

That's it, but with slight variations and a thick alabama drawl

458 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:34:05pm

re: #454 tokyobk

The airport in Vancouver BC is limestone and shale. I had a long layover once and did nothing but walk around for 6 hours looking at the fossils.

459 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:34:27pm

Here it is folks:

I'm no kin to the monkey

460 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:34:50pm

re: #448 SanFranciscoZionist As a Southenor, I was referring to her as a product of it (hope to hell she wasn't born in the South!)!

461 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:22pm

re: #459 Last Mohican

Oops, KT beat me to it.

462 Egregious Philbin  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:26pm

Ah, Rush, the guy who barely made it out of High School, and did a few semesters at community college?

The guy who needed someone else to write his books? "Jeff Christie" the disc jockey, the guy who never even bothered to register to vote?

Rush, twice married, perscription drug forger? The guy who is deaf because he took too many drugs.

The guy who said that talk radio is just a game, a side show, to get ratings?

Sure thing Rush, tell you what, quit radio, get your degree, get your masters, get your PhD and go do about 20 years of research and publish some papers and get peer reviewed. Then, only then will I give a crap about your enlightened opinion on science.

Till then, just STFU.

463 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:50pm

re: #443 Charles

It's really pretty pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, people like Rush Limbaugh get on the radio and say "it's all BS," and tell their admirers it's meaningless.

It DOES mean something. This should be a day when all Americans -- all human beings -- are proud of what we can accomplish through science and research, and instead we have much of the Republican Party bitching about it as if it's a personal affront to them.

Just pathetically sad.

It follows the line of anti-intellectualism. Mind you I don't think of intellectualism as being a nose in the air form of intellect but a respect for science is on example. He clearly stated an opposition to this at the CPAC speech.

This is also a continuing talking point. The whole "thermodynamics" rant from Gov. Mark Sanford. The recently elected creationist to the SC Gop. McLeroy and the Texas Board of Education. Jindal's comments on volcanic monitoring.

This fossil isn't even a "missing link" as it has been reported by the MSM. It is not a descendent. It's a link or an ancestor in the branch of a species. I don't think he even understands that.re: #451 Last Mohican

464 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:35:51pm

re: #454 tokyobk

I was glancing off at the marble fireplace in my office as I have done for years, but now the swirls seemed to have design not just shape-- sure enough, shells and trillibites frozen in the stone.

How cool! My better half bought a piece of amber once from jeweler because it had a tiny little mosquito/gnat looking bug in it.....love that stuff

465 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:36:58pm

re: #459 Last Mohican

Here it is folks:

I'm no kin to the monkey

Eeek.

When does the Prussian Blue version come out?

466 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:37:26pm

re: #450 Killgore Trout
I must say Killgore that was very clever of you - or whomever made it.
Wonder if there gonna do one with Obama singing it?

467 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:37:41pm

'Thermodynamics is proof of creationism' = GOProfessor.

468 kahall  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:37:58pm

I heard it today as well and knew it was going to be on here today or tomorrow. I was disappointed to hear him say it.

469 Dar ul Harb  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:39:14pm

Good night, y'all.

One last comment though. There's another reason that some folks are agin' believing that humans have a common ancestry with primates. Not just because the good book doesn't say so, but because if you emphasize the animal part of man, you're de-emphasizing the divine aspect.

What piece of work is a man! how noble in reason!
how infinite in faculty! in form and moving how
express and admirable! in action how like an angel!
in apprehension how like a god! the beauty of the
world! the paragon of animals! And yet, to me,
what is this quintessence of dust?
--Hamlet, Act II, Sc. II

470 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:39:41pm

re: #467 BigPapa

'Thermodynamics is proof of creationism' = GOProfessor.

Yeah, I remember that one. The 5th Law of Thermodynamics. You have to go deep into the annexes of my textbooks into the missing pages to find it. "They" try to keep it suppressed so they can promote their humans-are-monkeys agenda.

471 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:41:38pm

Here's the Youtube version.

"I'm No Kin to a Monkey"

Youtube Video
472 Erik The Red  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:42:31pm

re: #466 realwest

I must say Killgore that was very clever of you - or whomever made it.
Wonder if there gonna do one with Obama singing it?

Morning/Evening rw. My guess is that 44 will star in one when hell freezes over. Can you imagine the out cry of racism if someone had to substitute GWB with 44?

473 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:43:20pm

re: #463 Gus 802
Hey Gus! "It follows the line of anti-intellectualism" well I'm not so sure that's limited to the GOP - see my comment #629 on the prior post - especially the part about the party of ideas.
Or for that matter my #264 above.

474 Last Mohican  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:44:42pm

Okay folks, my time has come. I gotta hit the sack, unfortunately with that "I'm no kin to the monkey" song still firmly stuck in my head.

Anyone with the same problem may want to keep one of these around, to use in case of emergency. ONLY in case of emergency.

Weet dreams!

475 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:45:22pm

American science in action.

Back in the early 70s, I had an army buddy who was a native of Carlisle England. He had become a fan of American football during his time in the States. He reported that during his leave at home this had led to argument with some of his devoutly English mates over the relative merits of the English and American versions of football (the former known as soccer in these parts). He claimed to have settled it by asking, "If two blokes are talking about football, and the conversation is taking place on the MOON, which version do they mean?"

476 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:45:33pm

re: #473 realwest

Hey Gus! "It follows the line of anti-intellectualism" well I'm not so sure that's limited to the GOP - see my comment #629 on the prior post - especially the part about the party of ideas.
Or for that matter my #264 above.

Yep. I know. I say that because I would prefer for that not to be the case within the GOP or "our team." There's a lot of anti-intellectual aspects to both sides of politics including with the Dems and certain demographics. Such as the case with the anti-Vax crowd.

477 srb1976  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:45:37pm

Ok folks, that's all the fun I can stand for one day.....Off to sleep (I hope)

478 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:45:56pm

re: #477 srb1976

Ok folks, that's all the fun I can stand for one day.....Off to sleep (I hope)

Have a good one.

479 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:46:30pm

re: #471 Gus 802

Here's the Youtube version.

"I'm No Kin to a Monkey"


Are the radio people following the song those jerks Oppie and Anthony.

480 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:46:38pm

re: #466 realwest

Yes, Racists have already done a version. I chose not to link to it.

481 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:46:43pm

re: #472 Erik The Red
Ah geez, sorry Erik I hadn't thought of that. But you are of course right.
Sigh. I'm going back to read my #629 in the prior thread to make sure I didn't leave anything like that lying around!

And since that should be a quick check, Just wanna say good night to you all and hope you have a great evening/early morning - I gotta get some sleep cause I have a very busy, very early morning for me and have to go to bed NOW!
Hope I get the chance to see you all down the road.
Good night, all.

482 freetoken  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:47:09pm

re: #431 Bobibutu


Rush might consider doing some deeper due diligence before shooting from the hip.

You're asking for too much.

483 realwest  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:48:23pm

re: #480 Killgore Trout
Whoa - hadda come back for that Killgore - I'm astounded that they could move that fast! Not that it's right for them to do that of course, just as it wasn't right for them to do that to Bush.

484 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:48:38pm

re: #479 Dark_Falcon

Are the radio people following the song those jerks Oppie and Anthony.

I saw that.

This one is from The Wehry Family in an album called "Stepping Out" from 2000.

485 freetoken  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:48:45pm

re: #475 Shiplord Kirel

American science in action.

In Limbaugh's case, I believe it is Premier Radio Networks in action.

They know their audience.

486 Egregious Philbin  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:48:47pm

re: #438 BigPapa

"you mean to tell me I came from some puddle of goo?"

"you mean to tell me I came from some 47 million year old monkey?"

... .. ... .. ... . . .... . ... . .. (crickets).... .... . . . . .... . ..

"you mean to tell me I came from some thunderbolt of lightning that came from some old guy in a robe that looks like Charlton Heston?"

TA FRICKEN DA!

I'm still trying to figure out why God hates amputees. I mean, faith healers claim to cure cancer and heart disease and all that, but I've never seen, nor has there ever been any evidence that anyone with an amputated limb has ever had one restored via miracle. God must just hate amputees.

487 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:49:32pm

re: #480 Killgore Trout

Yes, Racists have already done a version. I chose not to link to it.

And you are right not to do so. Comparisons between black people and monkeys have a long and vile history in this country. Any monkey song featuring Obama would be justly hurtful to many people.

488 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:50:10pm

Bible-thumpers are obviously the target here.

Know two friends that have been enveloped by this at one point in their lives.

Other friends... Not so much... Not even close.

My bible-thumping friends didn't break from their beliefs with direct assault on what they believe in.

They grew out of it because they were separated from the person that taught it to them and hung out with me for a while.

Incredibly difficult to do half way around the world.

It can be done.

489 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:50:21pm

re: #483 realwest

Yeah, that's the lovely stuff I find from reading stormfront every day. I'd much rahter go back to reading Daily Kos. Ah, the good old days.

490 Egregious Philbin  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:50:35pm

re: #485 freetoken

In Limbaugh's case, I believe it is Premier Radio Networks in action.

They know their audience.

All the more reason I can't take talk radio any more. Its all just a sideshow. The hosts say what they are supposed to and to get ratings. Its pro wrestling on the radio.

So many suckers out there....

491 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:52:15pm

re: #484 Gus 802

I saw that.

This one is from The Wehry Family in an album called "Stepping Out" from 2000.

I was asking if the radio were those two guys. I put in a period instead of a question mark. PIMF

492 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:53:40pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

I was asking if the radio were those two guys. I put in a period instead of a question mark. PIMF

Oh. They probably did. Not sure how old the song is however.

493 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:54:17pm

Rush was useful back in the day. Unfortunately that day was a long time ago.

494 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:54:47pm

So Rush is a creationist. Not really surprised, no?

Does Rush think it should be taught in public schools? That's the real question.

495 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:55:13pm

re: #435 Killgore Trout

More evidence of increasing isolationism on the right.....
Quotes of the day

I no longer understand Ap's posts.

Your understanding of things is now in question.

496 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:55:23pm

re: #491 Dark_Falcon

I was asking if the radio guys were those two guys. I put in a period instead of a question mark. PIMF

self-smack. I need to pay more attention before posting.

497 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:55:50pm

I've added an update with what I wrote in that previous comment, to make it clear how I feel about this. It's just wrong that someone like Rush Limbaugh, with all of his reach and his massive audience, is degrading the value of this once-in-a-lifetime discovery and dismissing it as bullshit.

498 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:58:16pm

I always come in late to these threads with all these [deleted]s.
What'd I miss? 8^p

499 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:58:22pm
500 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 10:59:29pm

That's six so far.

501 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:00:07pm

re: #498 Abu Al-Poopypants

I always come in late to these threads with all these [deleted]s.
What'd I miss? 8^p

Two trolls, one longtime irregular poster, and a sockpuppet flounced to the exit.

502 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:00:17pm

Science is BS. It's BullScience.

503 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:00:25pm

re: #497 Charles

I've added an update with what I wrote in that previous comment, to make it clear how I feel about this. It's just wrong that someone like Rush Limbaugh, with all of his reach and his massive audience, is degrading the value of this once-in-a-lifetime discovery and dismissing it as bullshit.

When I saw the fossil image and link up on Drudge this morning I thought it was great. It made me think, "good move Matt Drudge." I'm not a Rush listener but he could have at least shown some respect or even an inkling of curiosity but instead he put his foot in his mouth.

504 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:01:22pm

re: #500 Charles

That's six so far.

I stand corrected. This thread has sure smoked out the trolls tonight.

505 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:01:38pm

re: #497 Charles

I've added an update with what I wrote in that previous comment, to make it clear how I feel about this. It's just wrong that someone like Rush Limbaugh, with all of his reach and his massive audience, is degrading the value of this once-in-a-lifetime discovery and dismissing it as bullshit.

Feel has nothing to do with this.

This is Science. Right?

506 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:04:41pm

Charles if you have a minute. I'm curious as to your opinion of the Heritage Foundation. I did join after the election but only after scouring their site about creationism and drew a blank.

507 Egregious Philbin  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:05:59pm

Where the creationists differ is this: Those that accept the fact of evolution would LOVE to see some evidence that refutes our science. That is what science is all about, learning and adjusting to new proved data. That excites us, its knowledge! Versus Creationism: they want no actual empirical data they are afraid that they may have to complete change their belief systems.

Knowledge bad, dogma good.

That may have been all the rage in the Middle Ages, but we aren't there anymore, and we are learning new facts every day, and its an exciting time to be alive.

508 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:06:11pm

Rush, WHY DO YOU HATE SCIENCE?

509 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:06:19pm

re: #506 MrPaulRevere

Charles if you have a minute. I'm curious as to your opinion of the Heritage Foundation. I did join after the election but only after scouring their site about creationism and drew a blank.

Try this: "intelligent design" site:heritage.org

I didn't read through any of those.

510 BGOH  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:06:47pm

Am I the only one who thinks that this may have been blown a bit out of proportion? I'm no great defender of Rush, but it seems to me that, based on the quoted portion of his transcript (I didn't hear the show today), he is simply pointing out that there are bigger things going on in our world today. And I would agree. As we are watching the White House turn into the home of not only the political, but also the economic executive, in what has been the freest nation in the history of humanity, there are few things outside of first contact with aliens that I would classify as being more important in terms of our own existence.

Charles, in all honesty I understand, respect and agree with your commitment to science, but I think you may be far too focused on this one issue. I've been reading this blog for years, and it isn't like you to jump on a single sentence like this in order to place a scarlet letter on someone. And I'm in no way some sort of anti-science, creationist cretin, no matter what Stinky may be telling you. lol

511 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:06:58pm

You do not abandon people you disagree with because it pisses you off!

512 SevereTyreDamage  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:07:49pm

re: #451 Last Mohican

From the Sopwith Camel:

MONKEYS ON THE MOON

(Kraemer, MacNeil)

The archangel's sleeping.
The devil is weeping.
The heavenly host
is white as a ghost.

The old man himself is
mad as a loon
'cause all his kids are
singing a tune.
Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!

Monkeys on the moon.
Monkeys on the moon.
See how they bounce from
dune to dune
Came a long way in a gold
cocoon.
All the way from a green
balloon.
Just to plant flags for the big
baboon.
Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!

Saturn is blinking.
Jupiter's winking.
And old Sol's thinking.
His system is sinking.
But who's to say if it's
bad or a boon.
When all the kids are singing
a tune.
Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!

Used to be so peaceful in space.
Now there's hot-rods all over the place.
And old Lady Moon, in her silvery grace
now has these words tattooed
on her face.
Better get ready! It's coming soon!
Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!

Long time from now
in a place very far.
In the court of a castle
on a star.
A mad jester tunes
his fiery guitar.
And with a grin he says
to the Czar:
I'm gonna sing you a
ancient tune.
"Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!"

Monkeys on the moon.
Monkeys on the moon.
See how they bounce from
dune to dune.
Came a long way in a gold
cocoon.
All the way from a green
balloon.
Just to plant flags for the big
baboon.
Look out pa!
There's monkeys on the moon!

©1973 Great Honesty Music, Inc. (BMI)

513 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:07:52pm

re: #504 Dark_Falcon

I stand corrected. This thread has sure smoked out the trolls tonight.

Looks like "the DOW" is still open if you know what I mean.

514 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:08:12pm

re: #509 Gus 802

Ouch. I dunno what to say now. They seemed OK.

515 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:08:22pm

re: #506 MrPaulRevere

Charles if you have a minute. I'm curious as to your opinion of the Heritage Foundation. I did join after the election but only after scouring their site about creationism and drew a blank.

The Heritage Foundation is anti-evolution.

516 fizzlogic  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:08:23pm

re: #506 MrPaulRevere

IIRC, the Heritage Foundation originally helped bring the religious right into the GOP.

517 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:09:31pm

re: #514 MrPaulRevere

Ouch. I dunno what to say now. They seemed OK.

Yep, as Charles just said. Looks like they hosted some Disco institute people in the past including many article on just "intelligent design" alone.

518 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:10:22pm

Hmm. Maybe I'm slow tonight but I took 499 to be agreeing with 493 about the the Large Man Who Rattles Papers* and his dittoheads and it got flushed. What I don't get about Limbaugh is how his audience is so large. Your typical conservative or Republican is supposed to be at work during those hours. The only time I hear him is during the occasional lunch-hour errand.

*as the late David Brudnoy used to refer to him.

519 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:12:27pm

I suppose even if he doesn't believe what he says about certain topics, he has to play to his core audience, the people that Frank Zappa would call Jeezo-publicans.

520 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:12:31pm

47 million year monkeys that seemingly link humans and primates. Seems like a big deal to me. Not trillion dollar deficit socialism big, but somewhat big.

I also think it's a big deal when a well known conservative commentator who has said many things I agree with goes off the reservation and says 'this is all BS.'

521 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:12:34pm

re: #514 MrPaulRevere

Ouch. I dunno what to say now. They seemed OK.

Good luck finding any conservative group or publication that is not anti-evolution.

522 Abu Al-Poopypants  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:14:29pm

re: #521 Charles

Good luck finding any conservative group or publication that is not anti-evolution.

If you find one, could you let me know?

523 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:14:55pm

re: #517 Gus 802

Is there a reputable center-right organization not infected with this nonsense? I feel embarrassed. I really did search the site, but obviously not well enough.

524 Westward Ho  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:15:28pm

OK dittoheads which of the following positions do you choose to get around evolution?

1. Literalist interpretation of the scriptures which would mean that you are a YEC. That is akin to someone believing that he is Napoleon and obstinately rejecting all evidence that he is not - or as schopenhauer said a Madman residing in a impregnable blockhouse. Call this the first horn of the dilemma and to be charitable I don't think you would want to be skewered by it.
2. You believe in the geological antiquity of the world you believe where the evidence takes you, in this case to a 4 billion yrs + world & your problems are as long and numerous as the no. of species;
None of the species present in today's world existed at the beginning of the world and infact there was no multicellular life for most of the 4 billion year history. Things you know progressed from extremely humble beginnings to what it is today like as if they "evolved". Now you do not believe in "Macro Evolution" but believe in "Micro Evolution" let's try to make sense of your stance.
How do you account for the lack of presence of today's creatures through most of the fossil record & since you do not allow for speciation except when it is done by a gent with a long beard and flowing robes you will have to embrace the theory that the creator is continuously poofing new species into existence through out geological time as well as continuously destroying stuff he does not like.
You have an erratic and exceedingly busy creator now suddenly waking up in the Cambrian and then destroying most of his creatures during the Permian extinction. Poof come the dinos, Zap go the dinos, poof the sabre toothed tiger, Wooly mammoth, Australopithecus, Zap the whole lot! The Poofing and Zapping has been going on for millions of times across billions of years to account for the current lot. At least the YEC crowd only require one Poofing.
Isn't the second horn after investigation looking infinitely more ridiculous than the Fundie YEC horn? There is no other alternative if you reject evolution.

Out of a sense of charity I appeal to you to not view evolution through the eyes of a culture warrior. It's not an evil librul canard it is science.

525 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:15:36pm

re: #521 Charles

Good luck finding any conservative group or publication that is not anti-evolution.

The key phrase there is "anti-evolution." I'm glancing over a document now from the Heritage Foundation. This isn't about promoting intelligent design. The reality is that they are against the teaching of evolution and apply a great deal of irrational conclusions and apply it to a "cultural war" model for the promotion of their ideology. Hence we see conclusion from these groups like "Darwin is an attack on the family" and so on.

526 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:16:17pm

re: #517 Gus 802

Yep, as Charles just said. Looks like they hosted some Disco institute people in the past including many article on just "intelligent design" alone.

Intelligent Design and the Mysteries of Life
(2005 speaking event with Discotute's Steven Meyer.)

527 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:17:01pm

re: #523 MrPaulRevere

Is there a reputable center-right organization not infected with this nonsense? I feel embarrassed. I really did search the site, but obviously not well enough.

Guess not. See #521. The closest I assume would be towards something like Reason which borders with Republicanism in places.

528 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:17:08pm

Charles, as passionate as you are with facts, unfortunately some people are as passionate without facts.

It will take way more time and understanding that you and I have in our lifetimes.

It's a good start. right?

Slow knowledge is good.

529 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:17:59pm

re: #521 Charles

Good luck finding any conservative group or publication that is not anti-evolution.

I don't know what to do about that. it makes me sad to say this, but I have no idea about how to change that.

530 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:19:33pm

re: #521 Charles

Good luck finding any conservative group or publication that is not anti-evolution.

I think LGF is it.

531 Machalot  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:19:46pm

re: #529 Dark_Falcon

I don't know what to do about that. it makes me sad to say this, but I have no idea about how to change that.

George Will and Charles Krauthammer come to mind.

532 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:20:10pm

re: #526 Shiplord Kirel

Intelligent Design and the Mysteries of Life
(2005 speaking event with Discotute's Steven Meyer.)

Yep, that's one of the first one I looked at. Here's a paper titled:

The Abolition of Man? How Politics and Culture
Have Been Dehumanized in the Name of Science

That illustrates how it goes beyond the scope of "intelligent design" ideas and towards an anti-science and anti-Darwinian ideology. Like I've mentioned before, the promotion of intelligent design or creationism is just a symptom of a wider ranging ideology.

533 fizzlogic  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:21:22pm

Here's an interesting tidbit of information. A few years ago, Heritage sold townhall.com to Salem Broadcasting. Take a look at Salem's list of websites. I wonder if Salem just came off the street and bought the site or if Heritage sought them out?

534 Pawn of the Oppressor  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:21:31pm

re: #525 Gus 802

Hence we see conclusion from these groups like "Darwin is an attack on the family" and so on.

No matter how hard I bend my thinking to understand this attitude, I keep coming back to good old Fascism. Or more precisely, the Romantic "minority us vs. majority them" that fuels fascism throughout history. Reactionary, conspiratorial thinking eventually leads to a call for vengeance, and usually that vengeance comes back on its perpetrator ten-fold, whether they realize it or not.

535 Dark_Falcon  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:04pm

re: #531 Machalot

George Will and Charles Krauthammer come to mind.

[wan smile] Thank you for that, Machalot. You've given a hopeful note on which to end my day. Goodnight, all.

536 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:25:54pm

re: #535 Dark_Falcon

[wan smile] Thank you for that, Machalot. You've given a hopeful note on which to end my day. Goodnight, all.

Goodnight Dark Falcon.

537 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:26:21pm

I'm listening to a replay of Limbaughs show today, and he LED OFF his show with the posted comment, appalling.

538 rikzilla  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:27:04pm

re: #521 Charles

The Dems should be opening up a bit of room in the party for middle of the road and even conservative thinkers...kinda like the Republican party of Ronald Reagan which appealed so much to me back in the day. So are we seeing the beginning of a major shift again? Pendulum swing etc...? Will Obama seize the middle ground and marginalize what is left of the GOP?

I am a pro-science fiscal conservative and I'm telling you right now...I see no place for me in either party! The Reps are propping up anti-science, and the Dems are trying to nationalize everything that isn't nailed down.

And now Rush is talking like a friggin' creationist!? Where will it end?

539 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:28:09pm

re: #537 MrPaulRevere

I'm listening to a replay of Limbaughs show today, and he LED OFF his show with the posted comment, appalling.

I was wondering what the inflection would have been like.

540 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:29:52pm

re: #539 Gus 802

It was full of righteous indignation. Very illuminating that he would lead off his show with it.

541 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:32:06pm

re: #540 MrPaulRevere

It was full of righteous indignation. Very illuminating that he would lead off his show with it.

The "righteous indignation" magnifies his failed commentary.

542 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:32:27pm
543 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:33:44pm
544 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:38pm

Hunch...

Charles and Rush don't know any more about evolution and creationism than I do.

Prove it.

545 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:34:50pm

re: #542 poovey1171

How about you get your own blog? Then we can come over and tell you what's bullshit.

546 Athos  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:36:06pm

re: #537 MrPaulRevere

I'm listening to a replay of Limbaughs show today, and he LED OFF his show with the posted comment, appalling.

I missed it - need to follow up on it in the am before tomorrow's show since my sched will permit me to listen to it.

If this is really his position - count me in on those massively disappointed with Rushbo. There's lot's of room in the proper GOP tent - but if you are one of those 5000 BC creationists - well, the science doesn't fit and I don't buy it. You can make a far more intelligent ID argument about what science doesn't know....but ultimately the two have to go hand in hand, IMO.

547 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:41:11pm
548 rikzilla  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:41:34pm

re: #542 poovey1171

Geez Charles! Stop with this Creationist/Evolution Bullshit! The fact of the matter is we don't know jack sh*t and some old rocks aren't going to explain it for us.

Actually the old rocks are far better at explaining reality than the old books are. The BS you seem to be so worried about is all gathered on one side of the debate. Guess which side.

It's not really Creationism v Evolution...it's more readily Sense v Nonsense.

549 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:09pm

The meltdowns keep on comin'.

550 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:42:50pm

humans coming from 47 million year old monkeys, BS.

However, Darwinism = Nazism.

Uh, yeah. Makes a whole bowl of sense.

551 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:43:29pm

re: #549 Killgore Trout

The meltdowns keep on comin'.

They are. This is when the cowards go into full swing.

552 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:43:29pm
553 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:43:33pm

re: #547 poovey1171

You seem to not understand the concept of being a gracious guest, however.

554 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:40pm

re: #552 poovey1171

No- there's a variety of opinions here. Just not much respect for folks who think they can be assholes.

555 Pygmalienation  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:44:48pm

Rogue dinger workin the thread, as well...

556 freedomplow  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:45:04pm

re: #549 Killgore Trout

The meltdowns keep on comin'.

And so do the snide remarks.

557 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:45:19pm

re: #555 Pygmalienation

Rogue dinger workin the thread, as well...

Ubergeek
Karma: 2
Registered since: Dec 14, 2008 at 5:39 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 9
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

558 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:15pm
559 Pygmalienation  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:46:31pm

re: #557 Gus 802

That is one of 2 that I noticed...

560 zuckerlilly  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:03pm

Challenge them with the polls, day by day (or as often as you can). Use the Obama-strategy. Show them that creationism/ID is on the losing side. Encourage those who are no creationists/ID in the GOP. Put them on your focus, make them visible, support them.

561 MrPaulRevere  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:26pm

I'm waiting patiently for the meltdown of a certain Lizard whose nickname rhymes with Jillian Fundy.

562 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:47:54pm

re: #556 freedomplow

And so do the snide remarks.

I thought I was being smarmy.

563 Killgore Trout  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:48:39pm

*flounce, flounce flounce*

564 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:49:51pm

re: #552 poovey1171

What's important: a wide variety of opinions, or the veracity of those opinions? Sounds like MosDefianism.

"I mean, like, I don't gotta believe what CNN says just because they say it."

So, is it important to have opinions such as this?

565 Sharmuta  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:51:05pm

re: #558 pimp_conservative

by most definitions, evolution is just a unproven theory.

That's just NOT TRUE. Evolution is one of the most empirically supported theories in ALL of science. Your attempt to bullshit us with your credentials is an epic FAIL.

566 Westward Ho  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:52:11pm

re: #558 pimp_conservative

You break my heart pimp.

567 yoshicastmaster  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:53:03pm

creationist logic is so bizarre. and by bizarre I mean incorrect.

"They’re going out of their way now to establish evolution as a mechanism for creation"

So many things wrong in that statement. First, what does it mean? Who is going out of their way? And what is "creation"? Is it the origin of all life? Because no evolution scientist is using this, or evolution more generally, to find that.

Or is "creation" just the arrival of a new species? Well evolution is the most widely accepted scientific viewpoint. What type of bulls*&^% evidentiary standards is Rush using to suggest that ID, or creationism, or whatever it is, is as valid as the theory of evolution?

ugh. willful ignorance is so distasteful.

568 Gus  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:53:57pm

re: #559 Pygmalienation

That is one of 2 that I noticed...

Cockroaches.

569 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:05pm
570 zuckerlilly  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:54:27pm

re: #558 pimp_conservative


you confuse the issue. ID is the one which is not even a theory. Evolution is a proven theory.

571 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:07pm

re: #552 poovey1171

So verifiable, scientific evidence is now reduced to the level of mere opinion?

572 freetoken  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:26pm

re: #346 moonflower


Maybe we can step back a bit and not condemn Rush. Why don't you ask him what he thinks?

Are you saying we are not to take him at his word, when he rants and raves on his show?

His language quoted above is pretty straightforward. Are you saying he is actively trying to deceive his audience?

573 rikzilla  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:29pm

The theory of gravity is similarly "just a theory".

....and unlike evolution you can test it yourself in an unambiguous nature by finding a tall building and flinging yourself from the roof.

574 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:55:53pm
575 Kronocide  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:57:41pm

re: #569 pimp_conservative

There are so many things wrong with that statement. First of all, it is an important issues since it is being proposed to be taught as science (and 'alternative theory' to science) in public schools.

Second, it is a huge problem with the GOP. Which defeats them to deal with larger issues since this issue will keep them out of power.

And evolution is a repeatedly proven theory, not proven by one fossil. That a egregious fallacy to say that. We could be seeded on this planet by aliens: prove it with evidence.

576 [deleted]  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:58:18pm
577 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Tue, May 19, 2009 11:59:11pm

WTF is with this "Charles in now Andrew Sullivan" meme bullshit. Is this the blogosphere equivalent to grade school kids calling someone a "faggot"?

Seriously, who the fuck is this Andrew Sullivan?

578 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:00:17am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

Yes, apparently it was "proven" today with the find of a fossil. It is not a proven theory, which is why we have had the "missing link" for all of my 33 years and more of existence. We simply do not know how legitimate todays news is and even if real, one fossil does not prove a missing link.

Today's fossil filled one of the most prominent and important areas where evidence was still lacking. It doesn't "prove" a missing link; it is the link. There are many more places to be filled in like this, and they have been filling in at a remarkable pace--exactly as predicted by the theory. The fulfillment of predictions is what makes it a really good theory.

579 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:01:37am

re: #569 pimp_conservative

Andrew Sullivan? That reminds me of some of the crazy email and stalker sites that rage against Mr. Johnson. You come here as newbie and then you insult the host after you had your meltdown and said your good bye?

580 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:18am

pimp, WHY DO YOU HATE SENSIBILITY?

581 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:33am
582 Westward Ho  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:11am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

Yes, apparently it was "proven" today with the find of a fossil. It is not a proven theory, which is why we have had the "missing link" for all of my 33 years and more of existence. We simply do not know how legitimate todays news is and even if real, one fossil does not prove a missing link.


It's proved at even the molecular level you fucking ignorant tard. Were you sleeping all this while this war was going on in the blog.

583 rikzilla  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:05:50am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

Yes, apparently it was "proven" today with the find of a fossil. It is not a proven theory, which is why we have had the "missing link" for all of my 33 years and more of existence. We simply do not know how legitimate todays news is and even if real, one fossil does not prove a missing link.

...but there will always be "missing links". I remember a ID/Evolution debate in which the IDer was concerning himself with "missing links". The Evolution proponent pointed out this newly discovered transitional fossil and the IDer without missing a beat said something like "well now you have two gaps in the fossil record!"

The gaps in knowledge, the dark spots, are where the Gods live....and their space has been shrinking continually thanks to the light of science.

584 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:07:23am
585 freedomplow  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:42am

re: #562 Killgore Trout

I thought I was being smarmy.

You thought you were being cute not smarmy.

Big difference.

586 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:08:51am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

You clearly do not know the meaning of the word "theory" in scientific context.

587 ShanghaiEd  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:09:54am

re: #372 Wendya

If you look back through the history of this country, you'd be hard pressed to find any time where religion had less actual influence in government than today.

If you'll do some reading on this, I think you'll change your view. We're just now beginning to realize the extent to which scientific research, medicine, and health were manipulated and undercut from within during the past eight years, by staffers the Bush administration recruited from fundamentalist colleges and think tanks. They were given great amounts of power in fields where they had virtually no expertise. Talk to scientists and researchers, and they'll tell you it's been the most anti-science atmosphere in their lifetimes, at the very least.

588 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:22am
589 zuckerlilly  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:33am

re: #576 pimp_conservative


A missing link doesn't make a theory "unproven". Quantum mechanics e.g. is not an unproven theory although there are a lot missing links in the theory and a lot of things we don't understand yet.

590 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:10:58am

i've never listened to Rush: now i never need to.

591 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:07am

some old rocks
a puddle of goo
a 47 million year old monkey
it's all BS too

pimp, WHY DO YOU HATE EVIDENCE?

592 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:08am

re: #581 pimp_conservative

I look forward to you being banned.

593 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:11:38am

re: #569 pimp_conservative

150 years of evidence support evolution.

594 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:05am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

Yes, apparently it was "proven" today with the find of a fossil. It is not a proven theory, which is why we have had the "missing link" for all of my 33 years and more of existence. We simply do not know how legitimate todays news is and even if real, one fossil does not prove a missing link.

maybe if we attend your family reunion......

/white smoke

595 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:17am
596 yoshicastmaster  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:43am

re: #558 pimp_conservative

yeah- others pretty much got it there man.

I'm wonder why Charles blogging about creationists is offensive to you. Because there are bigger problems? Well, by that logic Rush also probably had better things to mention. But he went after evolution.

Tolerance of this idea is tolerance of non-science, with a religious agenda, masquerading as science for the purpose of, essentially, converting others. It's practically domestic totalitarianism. Ideas with agendas other than truth should not be tolerated.

Evolution as an "unproven theory"? "Theory" is a term of art in science, and has specific criteria. Evolution is recognized by the scientific community as the best theory to explain speciation. It is a falsifiable theory but has passed its tests.

ID has passed no tests and is not falsifiable. No reputable scientist recognizes the science behind it.

The discover could be fake? Keeping your fingers crossed huh? That's the problem with "wanting to believe." I'm guessing your agenda is not solely finding the truth. That will definitely cause emotional reactions to contrary information. Want to get rid of this cognitive dissonance? Get rid of your agenda.

How did he twist Rush's words? The words are right there. It's pretty straightforward. Why should he feel shame for his viewpoint here? Do Rush's other viewpoints mean we need to tolerate his wrong ones? You seem to be suggesting this.

And Charles is not "ranting about a single issue." Talk about a total misrepresentation of his recent posts! Why are you lying about this website?

I'd like to echo your sentiment, but direct it back to you: I wish you the best and hope you come to your senses about this.

597 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:12:59am

re: #593 Sharmuta

150 years of evidence support evolution.

is that all you've got out of the 6000 years the planet has been here?

/fruitcup?

598 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:16am

re: #544 freedomplow

Hunch...

Hmm ... that name rings a bell ... *

Charles and Rush don't know any more about evolution and creationism than I do.

Prove it.

Proving a negative?

}:)     [ * Bet it's not a real modo, though ... it has to be a quasi modo ... ]

599 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:13:35am

re: #595 pimp_conservative

How brave of you to call people names hiding behind a computer screen!

how about if we're just laughing at you.... where does that fit into things?

600 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:14:12am
601 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:11am

re: #596 yoshicastmaster

yeah- others pretty much got it there man.

I'm wonder why Charles blogging about creationists is offensive to you. Because there are bigger problems? Well, by that logic Rush also probably had better things to mention. But he went after evolution.

Tolerance of this idea is tolerance of non-science, with a religious agenda, masquerading as science for the purpose of, essentially, converting others. It's practically domestic totalitarianism. Ideas with agendas other than truth should not be tolerated.

Evolution as an "unproven theory"? "Theory" is a term of art in science, and has specific criteria. Evolution is recognized by the scientific community as the best theory to explain speciation. It is a falsifiable theory but has passed its tests.

ID has passed no tests and is not falsifiable. No reputable scientist recognizes the science behind it.

The discover could be fake? Keeping your fingers crossed huh? That's the problem with "wanting to believe." I'm guessing your agenda is not solely finding the truth. That will definitely cause emotional reactions to contrary information. Want to get rid of this cognitive dissonance? Get rid of your agenda.

How did he twist Rush's words? The words are right there. It's pretty straightforward. Why should he feel shame for his viewpoint here? Do Rush's other viewpoints mean we need to tolerate his wrong ones? You seem to be suggesting this.

And Charles is not "ranting about a single issue." Talk about a total misrepresentation of his recent posts! Why are you lying about this website?

I'd like to echo your sentiment, but direct it back to you: I wish you the best and hope you come to your senses about this.

some folxs need to read this twice.....

602 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:15:33am

re: #600 pimp_conservative

See #350

Then re-read your #558

603 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:00am
604 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:02am

re: #600 pimp_conservative

Still waiting for that reasonable disagreement pimp. I've not seen any.

605 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:17:54am
606 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:01am

Whoa, you guys are getting a bit hard to follow here. What is unreasonable about saying he doesn't think creationism is as big an issue as you guys think it is? Or that he apparently is not read-up on the scientific jargon surrounding evolution?

607 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:08am
608 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:18:56am
609 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:20:38am

re: #588 pimp_conservative

[...] This fossil just doesn't matter. Creationism just doesn't matter. We have bigger problems facing us.

At least half of my fellow citizens are unable to deal with the truth about their own ancestry.

They are unable to do so for a variety of reasons, but key among them is the desire to seek comfort in false, but familiar, ideas about their origins.

The inability to look at new ideas is the common thread.

The refusal to accept evidence when presented is very common in our society.

This is highly characterological of the American. Of all people - really. However, the religious nature of the average American makes this particular topic the locus of heated discussion.

610 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:21:27am
611 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:21:40am
612 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:22:07am

re: #607 pimp_conservative

evolution is not unproven, it's simply not fully proven.

there is no other explanation available that answers all the questions and passes all the tests.

ID dosen't even get out of the box before it fails.

613 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:22:50am

re: #608 Machalot

I cannot understand this discussion of banning you...

Stinky doesn't do "stuck on dumb".

614 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:09am

re: #558 pimp_conservative

wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah wah

Ah, the obligatory high-drama exit stage right speech.

}:O     [*yawn* A classic ... ]

615 SteveRogers  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:41am

The next questions about Rush Limbaugh are
(at least to me):
Is he a young-earth creationist or an old-earth creationist?
Does he want to force students to learn his religious beliefs in the public schools?

Okay, actually the second question is my main concern. From what I have read there is no indication he wants to do that, but who knows?

616 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:23:42am

re: #613 redc1c4

Stinky doesn't do "stuck on dumb".

Then this forum is different than I had hoped. I don't believe in some idea where people have 3 chances to agree with me before they are banished.

617 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:24:11am
618 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:24:39am

re: #614 Kulhwch

Ah, the obligatory high-drama exit stage right speech.

}:O     [*yawn* A classic ... ]

Pimp_conservative. The extended meltdown version.

He even said this:

I wish you the best and hope you come to your senses about this, but until then you will have one less reader and one less defender.

619 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:24:39am
620 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:02am

re: #617 Slumbering Behemoth

Fuck. You.

Hiding behind your computer screen slurring this blog's host by calling him names like "Andrew Sullivan".

You're a mindless, poo flinging hypocrite.

Right on!

621 ShanghaiEd  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:08am

re: #569 pimp_conservative

You say Creationism is an "unimportant issue." Have you read the "Wedge" document from the founder of the Intelligent Design movement? Their goal is to remake American government and culture into a theocracy. I'd call that an important issue. Wouldn't you?

622 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:21am
623 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:25:40am

re: #614 Kulhwch

Ah, the obligatory high-drama exit stage right wrong speech.

}:O     [*yawn* A classic ... ]

FTFY!

624 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:05am
625 freedomplow  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:18am

re: #598 Kulhwch

Proving a negative?

}:)     [ * Bet it's not a real modo, though ... it has to be a quasi modo ... ]

What is that?

I would like to prove it. I can't.

No matter how many fossils, dinosaur bones or mud footprints I can not prove something that is not provable. I would like to.

Cannot take a bulletproof stand on peoples beliefs.

What kind of person would tear everything they have ever known from their heart?

Give them a little time. Let them adjust.

626 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:18am
627 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:33am
628 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:28:44am

re: #616 Machalot

Then this forum is different than I had hoped. I don't believe in some idea where people have 3 chances to agree with me before they are banished.

you have at least 3 chances to parse out what people are saying, rather than what you wish to hear before things get darwinian..........

if you are pre-formed as an ID-10-Tango, there isn't much that can save you from yourself.

629 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:29:57am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

So, you are upset that one of your heros turns out to be a blathering fool and now you're taking it out on LGF because Charles noticed?

Your words betray you. If you really didn't care, you wouldn't be writing so much about it.

630 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:30:03am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

Again, by your own words, you support my point about evolution being unproven. Not fully proven is unproven! I could care less about evolution, about intelligent design, and would be happy to find out that Stargate is the truth of our existence, but in the end, it just does not matter. We have bigger problems facing our country and our civilization than creationism. Your intolerance only alienates your friends from your cause.

habla ingles?

sprechen ze science?

did your parents have any children that lived?

631 MrPaulRevere  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:30:14am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

''I could care less about evolution, about intelligent design". 'Could have fooled me. You call yourself a conservative and behave in such an atrocious manner? Show some freaking respect.

632 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:30:44am

re: #628 redc1c4

you have at least 3 chances to parse out what people are saying, rather than what you wish to hear before things get darwinian..........

if you are pre-formed as an ID-10-Tango, there isn't much that can save you from yourself.

ID-10-Tango Delta Baker.

//Delta Baker = Douche Bag

633 Pygmalienation  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:11am

It should also be noted that all the discussion here at LGF --cf. the general trend towards anti-science, anti-intellect, anti-rational, and atavism revealed in the Evolution/ID-Creationist debate, dove-tails with the fight against Islamo-fascism. The Islamo-fascists are the epitome of all these things and worse, and they will be able to use this trend as a vehicle for their agenda. See, something for everyone after all!
MHO

634 pimp_conservative  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:31:18am

re: #627 Kulhwch

Wow, you really don't understand anything do you. It is hardly a nameless screenname when the site owner has my email on record which itself correlates to a unique domain that I personally own.

635 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:34am
636 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:56am

re: #542 poovey1171

The fact of the matter is we don't know jack sh*t and some old rocks aren't going to explain it for us.


The fact of the matter is that you don't know "jack shit", and cannot see facts when they are as plain as the rocks around you.

637 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:33:08am

re: #632 Gus 802

ID-10-Tango Delta Baker.

//Delta Baker = Douche Bag

Wow, this place is terribly unwelcoming. I have just started posting on LFG here tonight on this thread, and basically posted only in agreement with the OP, in agreement with the consensus, or on favorably related topics. I have already been called an "idiot" by one regular and a "douch bag" by another, after saying nothing particularly controversial.

638 rikzilla  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:33:24am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

Again, by your own words, you support my point about evolution being unproven. Not fully proven is unproven! I could care less about evolution, about intelligent design, and would be happy to find out that Stargate is the truth of our existence, but in the end, it just does not matter. We have bigger problems facing our country and our civilization than creationism. Your intolerance only alienates your friends from your cause.

"Not fully proven is unproven!"

This is simply intellectual dishonesty. It is the equivalent of sticking your fingers in your ears and yelling LALALALALALA!

Jeremiah 5:21
Hear now this, O foolish people, and without understanding; which have eyes, and see not; which have ears, and hear not

639 pimp_conservative  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:33:53am

re: #631 MrPaulRevere

I care that this focus on evolution and intelligent design, themselves meaningless in the grand scheme of things, is detracting from the fight against the greater problems we face.

640 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:33:59am

re: #632 Gus 802

ID-10-Tango Delta Bravo.

//Delta Bravo = Douche Bag

FTFY!

641 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:25am

re: #640 redc1c4

FTFY!

Thank you sir.

642 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:26am

Pimp, instead of bobbing and weaving, let's stick with one specific issue. You said that 'creationism/ID isn't really that big of an issue.' More important stuff, no?

I say that it is important because it's a serious Achilles heel to the GOP, which is on the right side of many other issues.

643 Machalot  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:52am

Girlfriend calling, goodnight all.

644 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:34:57am
645 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:35:14am

re: #607 pimp_conservative


By your own words, evolution is still unproven yet you attack me for merely voicing concern that we are being bogged down in minutiae, for expressing disappointment at the turn of discussion this blog has done over the past year.

You are a lying POS. You've done more here than merely voice a concern. You've also been throwing around shit that is obviously intended to be a slur toward blog owner.

Poor little pimp. Your victim card is getting all worn out.

646 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:36:06am

re: #635 pimp_conservative

Insult me all you want, but insult my parents and you cross a line. One doubts you have the courage to say that to my face, you pathetic coward.

re: #635 pimp_conservative

Insult me all you want, but insult my parents and you cross a line. One doubts you have the courage to say that to my face, you pathetic coward.

dude: i'm not the one insulting my parents and their efforts to raise me right by being stupid in public.....

647 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:36:41am

re: #641 Gus 802

Thank you sir.

SIR?

i w*rk for a living.....

/retarded as an E-4

648 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:37:31am

re: #645 Slumbering Behemoth

You are a lying POS. You've done more here than merely voice a concern. You've also been throwing around shit that is obviously intended to be a slur toward blog owner.

Poor little pimp. Your victim card is getting all worn out.

among other things:

/spnak that a55........

649 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:37:33am

re: #610 pimp_conservative

How have I been unreasonable? By voicing concern that he is becoming a anti-creationist version of Andrew Sullivan? If that is unreasonable, then Charles and you all have thinner skin and less debating ability than I thought.

This is fucking rich, since you are crying like a little bitch about having your opinions challenged.

650 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:37:41am

re: #647 redc1c4

SIR?

i w*rk for a living.....

/retarded as an E-4

Oh. Well, I sometimes use "sir" freely.

651 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:05am

MARK IT ZERO.

652 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:49am

re: #635 pimp_conservative

Insult me all you want, but insult my parents and you cross a line. One doubts you have the courage to say that to my face, you pathetic coward.

Oh stop. Nobody insulted your parents. And nobody cares about your apparently secret domain name. Go have a tantrum somewhere else.

653 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:50am

re: #649 Slumbering Behemoth

This is fucking rich, since you are crying like a little bitch about having your opinions challenged.

Yeah. So far he's called Charles "Andrew Sullivan" and then he says he's "thin skinned."

This guy's a loser. He even sticks around after posting his goodbye meltdown post.

654 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:08am

re: #649 Slumbering Behemoth

This is fucking rich, since you are crying like a little bitch about having your opinions challenged.

he bites at all the lures, doesn't he?

655 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:41:36am

re: #639 pimp_conservative

I care that this focus on evolution and intelligent design, themselves meaningless in the grand scheme of things, is detracting from the fight against the greater problems we face.

Your concern is noted. Laudable. Thank you for contributing.

Will there be anything else?

656 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:42:09am
657 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:42:11am

MosDefianism exemplified by ol' pimp.

658 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:42:25am

re: #595 pimp_conservative

How brave of you to call people names hiding behind a computer screen!

588: pencil necked geeks (sic)
588: anti-religion crowd
581: nameless screenname (sic)
569: anti-creationist Andrew Sullivan

Mr. Kettle, meet Mr. Pot ...

}:)     [No wonder you don't GET evolution.]

659 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:42:32am

re: #655 haakondahl

Your concern is noted. Laudable. Thank you for contributing.

Will there be anything else?

He's probably taking some more hits from the bong.

660 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:15am

re: #658 Kulhwch

Mr. Kettle, meet Mr. Pot ...

}:)     [No wonder you don't GET evolution.]

he changes without progressing.......

no wonder he hates evolution.

661 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:51am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

Good look at the stalker sites.

662 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:53am

re: #659 Gus 802

He's probably taking some more hits from the bong.

you misspelled "crack pipe"..... %-)

663 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:20am
664 MrPaulRevere  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:27am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

Why do you feel you are entitled to have Charles Johnson agree with you? God forbid a man should march to the tune of his own drummer.

665 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:36am

re: #662 redc1c4

you misspelled "crack pipe"..... %-)

I did didn't I. It's looking like a needle and a spoon now.

666 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:45:44am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

You are all rather sad pathetic creatures who feel the need to belittle and insult others....

That's a 1.75mL bottle of irony sauce!

667 ShanghaiEd  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:18am

re: #639 pimp_conservative

Please address my #621, and tell me if you believe the goal of the Intelligent Design movement is "meaningless."

668 srb1976  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:43am

re: #666 BigPapa

That's a 1.75mL bottle of irony sauce!

Very small bottle...must be potent sauce = )

669 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:30am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

We have bigger problems facing our country and our civilization than creationism.

Your narrow inability to focus on more than one problem at a time does not mean that the rest of us are similarly afflicted with such a disability.

This blog, and the majority of the people here, can walk, chew gum, hum a tune, and read all at the same time. Just because you can't is no reason to demand that the rest of us must lower ourselves to your level inability just to make you feel better.

670 Gus  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:47:54am

re: #666 BigPapa

That's a 1.75mL bottle of irony sauce!

Anyone have a violin? We need a violin for his extended departure.

671 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:35am

re: #665 Gus 802

I did didn't I. It's looking like a needle and a spoon now.

and a trip to the moon..... i wish they'd take him away..

672 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:50:52am

re: #618 Gus 802

I know, I saw.

}:)     [I think we had one less reader the moment he signed in.]

673 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:01am

re: #664 MrPaulRevere

Why do you feel you are entitled to have Charles Johnson agree with you? God forbid a man should march to the tune of his own drummer.

with or without a back beat?

674 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:30am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

You are all rather sad pathetic creatures who feel the need to belittle and insult others through the safety and distance of a computer screen. No wonder you are all so lonely and friendless.

These non-sequiturs are precisely the sort of reasoning which render your ilk incapable of grasping the problem with YEC/ID, and its relationship to the classroom.
This is a major issue because if your kind are allowed to dictate what gets taught in science classes, there won't be any more science classes. ID is to science what Ebonics is to English--a politically motivated sandbagging of the next generation. If America in thirty years is populated by a people incapable of sifting horseshit from hay, then it won't be worth defending. The inside will be no better than the outside, because the kids in school now will make ALL of the decisions about the course our country takes.
Can you point out the fallacies in your paragraph above? We all commit them from time to time, but you absolutely must be able to think rigorously when appropriate.
So far all I see is deliberate attempts to prolong a fight you are losing.

675 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:49am

re: #668 srb1976

Very small bottle...must be impotent sauce = )

FTFY!

676 rikzilla  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:51:52am

I hope the Pimp sticks around long enough to view this and allow it to sink into his skull:

Youtube Video
677 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:32am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

If there are such bigger concerns in this country- perhaps you should be off dealing with those instead of bitching about a subject you claim to not care about.

678 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:52:36am

re: #669 Slumbering Behemoth

Your narrow inability to focus on more than one problem at a time does not mean that the rest of us are similarly afflicted with such a disability.

This blog, and the majority of the people here, can walk, chew gum, hum a tune, and read all at the same time. Just because you can't is no reason to demand that the rest of us must lower ourselves to your level inability just to make you feel better.

this deserves to be read more than once..... IMHO.

679 Westward Ho  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:01am

re: #588 pimp_conservative

I think this fossil find is absolutely fantastic, but in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter. We are here now, we have problems now that make this stupid creationist/intelligent design "debate" pale in significance. Tomorrow, no one will care about this fossil other than a bunch of pencil necked geeks and the anti-religion crowd, but while you all revel in a long dead animal, the rest of the world is suffering from a malicious disease called Islamic fascism, our country spirals towards socialist fascism while the economy and livelihood of millions flushes down the toilet. This fossil just doesn't matter. Creationism just doesn't matter. We have bigger problems facing us.

Again you chose to deflect the issue when your ass is factchecked. You are going to get a severe and fatal beating as long as you view the issue through the culture war prism which you clearly do as from your comments about " Pencil necked geeks and anti religion crowd" and by investing such a lot of energy tilting windmills your defeat will reflect badly on the other weapons of your culture war.

Grow the fuck up.

680 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:53:59am

re: #625 freedomplow

What is that?

I would like to prove it. I can't.

No matter how many fossils, dinosaur bones or mud footprints I can not prove something that is not provable. I would like to.

Cannot take a bulletproof stand on peoples beliefs.

What kind of person would tear everything they have ever known from their heart?

Give them a little time. Let them adjust.

You've been into the cooking sherry again.

}:)     [Go on, sleep it off, maybe you'll be rational in the morning ... ]

681 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:54:33am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

LMAO! Irony is rich

682 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:39am

re: #664 MrPaulRevere

Why do you feel you are entitled to have Charles Johnson agree with you? God forbid a man should march to the tune of his own drummer.

Indeed. Not sure where it was written in the rules of blog ownership that the whims of the readers should be forever catered to.

683 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:58am

re: #656 pimp_conservative


You are all rather sad pathetic creatures who feel the need to belittle and insult others through the safety and distance of a computer screen.

Shall I point again to your repeated little "Andrew Sullivan" slur? You truly are a hypocrite. You come in here slinging insults, then cry like a bitch when you receive the same in kind. And you can't even stop your self from insulting and belittling others while complaining about being insulted and belittled.

Your style of cognitive dissonance belongs on DKos.

684 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:01am

Mrs BigPapa says the streetlights are one.

Pimp: WHY DO YOU HATE RATIONALITY?

685 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:18am

re: #634 pimp_conservative

Wow, you really don't understand anything do you.

Uh oh, projection ...

In my universe we end questions with a punctuation mark that indicates that it was a question.  Curious custom, but one you might emulate; it'll give you more time to count on your toes.

It is hardly a nameless screenname when the site owner has my email on record which itself correlates to a unique domain that I personally own.

It's hardly a nameless screenname?  But you said it was a nameless screenname.  So are you now admitting you were wrong then, or wrong now, or just wrong all the way around, buckaroo?

}:)     [How does that patent leather taste?]

686 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:01:19am

re: #683 Slumbering Behemoth

Shall I point again to your repeated little "Andrew Sullivan" slur? You truly are a hypocrite. You come in here slinging insults, then cry like a bitch when you receive the same in kind. And you can't even stop your self from insulting and belittling others while complaining about being insulted and belittled.

Your style of cognitive dissonance belongs on DKos.

or Usenet, where it can be beaten on for years.......

687 Kronocide  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:02:59am

Pimp:

"goodnight cruel thread! Goodnight! No more debate with pathetic creatures, no more..."

688 Syrah  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:04:19am

re: #682 Sharmuta

As much as I wish it were otherwise, narcissism is not exclusive to the L3. We may have to devote a chapter to that problem.

689 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:11am

re: #678 redc1c4

You flatter me, Red. And I am only half-drunk. Wait 'til I get truly hammered.

/not quite as sharp in that state as Hitch, though
//

690 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:05:33am

re: #637 Machalot

Wow, this place is terribly unwelcoming. I have just started posting on LFG here tonight on this thread, and basically posted only in agreement with the OP, in agreement with the consensus, or on favorably related topics. I have already been called an "idiot" by one regular and a "douch bag" by another, after saying nothing particularly controversial.

Yeah, we have a high overhead in smelling salts.*  Just put your head down between your knees and try to breath normally ... the vapors usually pass after your second helping of gamey buttocks.  I personally think it's the beer that does it ...

}:)     [ * Mostly because they're hard to administer to sock puppets.]

691 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:08:06am

re: #639 pimp_conservative

I care that this focus on evolution and intelligent design, themselves meaningless in the grand scheme of things, is detracting from the fight against the greater problems we face.

Bull-fucking-shit.  You care to wave your dick around, thinking it's the grandest in the land.

}:)     [Let us know when you find your tweezers.]

692 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:09:26am

re: #686 redc1c4

Usenet is before my time. Well, not really. At that time I was chasing girls and getting rowdy, not being a nerd like you. ;p

/I am teasing, because I love

693 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:13:08am
694 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:16:45am

re: #670 Gus 802

Anyone have a violin? We need a violin for his extended departure.

I'm thinking you can probably substitute a shotgun for the violin.

}:)     [If not to him, then to me, this whining is pathetic ... ]

695 uptight  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:18:32am

re: #372 Wendya

If you look back through the history of this country, you'd be hard pressed to find any time where religion had less actual influence in government than today.

that's good, but it's still got a way to go

Religious Conservatives may personally disagree with a lot of things, but as conservatives they should make it a point of principle not to let their religious views interfere.

Conservatives forcing schools to teach religion, stopping gays getting married and banning all abortions may sit perfectly with religion but fly in the face on true conservatism.

Small government on all issues (not just the ones that are convenient)

696 uptight  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:19:38am

replace "religion" with "creationism" in above post

pimf

697 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:23:46am

re: #689 Slumbering Behemoth

You flatter me, Red. And I am only half-drunk. Wait 'til I get truly hammered.

/not quite as sharp in that state as Hitch, though
//

Hitch is someone we all can emulate.

You're still sharp enough to deal with carpet-baggers like the-lizard-formerly-known-as-Pimp.

}:)     [Excellent form tonight, sir, congratulations.]

698 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:24:59am

re: #133 BingoBunny

Dude I'm no scientist.. and I don't have to clarify anything I want to say.. But I do know better then to believe the first word about anything.. or is the Pith Down man still in our family tree.? What ever that thing some guy sewed together in the 20's was called..that was supposed to be the last word to prove Darwinism.. and was discovered to be a total fraud about 30 years later. Just as a little aside this case of bones is sealed in plastic.. and can only be X ray studied.. ok the bones are right for something.. but how can you really know they are 47 MY old and not 50,000 years old without touching them?

Piltdown Man was perpetrasted in 1912, almost a hundred years ago, was just a few bone fragments dug from dirt rather than a 95% complete skeleton embedded in a sediomentary matrix, and was exposed by scientists with much more primitive tools than we have now.

And we can ascertain how old the fossil is by subjecting it to several different types of radiometric dating.

another point as a quick aside my uncle was a Geologist for a oil company some of the core samples he made had fossils in it, he gave me some.. when I was taking geology in college I showed them to a professor.. who Immediately said they were fakes.. because of the gold color on them.. was watching History Channel last night and they talked about the way Fossils get fools gold in them and turn a gold color.. whos the fool.. well that professor was one.

Well, the world's leading paleontologists have had two long years to subject this fossil to every meticulous, fine-grained, and painstaking means of inspection in their contemporary technological arsenal. That's a bit more than a casual glance from an obscure professor.

699 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:28:55am

re: #692 Slumbering Behemoth

Usenet is before my time. Well, not really. At that time I was chasing girls and getting rowdy, not being a nerd like you. ;p

/I am teasing, because I love

and you went through Harmony Church when, exactly?

/ %-)

700 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:29:58am

re: #697 Kulhwch

Such flattery. I know I am good looking, but I am not that good looking. BTW, your not getting into my boxers, either.
/Heh.

Thanks for the compliment, Kulh.

701 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:30:18am

re: #696 uptight

replace "religion" with "creationism" in above post

pimf

it w*rks both ways.....

702 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:32:39am

re: #166 Maddhouse

No actually I was curious. It never crossed my mind this would be so taboo. I like stats, and find the christian vs evolution sides and how that relates to abortion is interesting.

Now you're just being either stupid, or else intentionally malevolent. "christian vs evolution' is, to borrow an expression from Rush, B.S. 1.6 billion Roman Catholics accept evolution (and they also oppose abortion).

Much like an informal poll I have been doing locally. I get the privilege of seeing people walk their dogs on fields meant for childrens sporting activities and not pick up their animals poop. So it peaked my curiosity and I had to know what percentage of these people vote democrat or republican. The ongoing tally is surprising.

It's 'piqued', not 'peaked'. And I feel the sudden urge to scrape you off the bootom of my shoe.

703 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:33:45am

re: #699 redc1c4

and you went through Harmony Church when, exactly?

/ %-)

The reference goes right over my head. I hate when that happens, especially when I can tell it's supposed to be a joke. What's the deal with HC?

704 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:34:24am

re: #698 Salamantis

Well, I see that the night shift is here, so I'll go punch out now ...

Youtube Video

}:)     [We tenderized a few of the smaller ones for you already, Sal ... ]

705 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:34:50am

Rush is the Right's answer to Keith Olbermann, pure and simple. And before everyone rolls their eyes because they see Olbermann as the effing anti-Christ, I'll say there are the occasional rare sunny days when, if I hear either of them out of context, I think Rush and Olbermann are both right on the money. I can agree with each of them on certain things. (And even a broken clock is right twice a day...)

But I can't stand either one of them, and for the same reasons. Each is a wacked out blowhard, so extreme the heat of their vicious hysterical bullshit could peel the paint in a room. Each one colors their chosen party as a bunch of raving lunatics. That morsel of unvarnished truth they spread here and there, like so much fairy dust, isn't enough to make up for how offensive, ne dangerous, they've become. They're overexposed, overly hostile, overly fat, and overly coiffed, respectively. And while both purport to tell it you straight, they're both hypocrites of the worst kind; tools, loudmouth assholes, deniers of truth, glossy rabble-rousers, and ultimate panderers to the fringe.

I wouldn't cross the street to piss on either one if they were on fire.

706 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:36:15am

re: #703 Slumbering Behemoth

The reference goes right over my head. I hate when that happens, especially when I can tell it's supposed to be a joke. What's the deal with HC?

Ft Benning..... Harmony Church School for Excitable Boys, my alma mater.

pretty much addresses the "nerd" issue. %-)

707 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:36:26am

re: #688 Syrah

As much as I wish it were otherwise, narcissism is not exclusive to the L3. We may have to devote a chapter to that problem.

Absolutely.

708 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:36:40am

re: #700 Slumbering Behemoth

You're welcome, it was honestly meant.  And for what it's worth, with the steady diet of gamey buttocks as of late, I'm not getting into ANYONE's boxers.

}:)     [Hell, I can't get into mine!]

709 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:38:15am
710 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:40:43am

re: #705 theheat


I wouldn't cross the street to piss on either one if they were on fire.

I prefer the phrase "Wouldn't piss in their mouth if their tongue was on fire", but I agree with the rest of your post. :)

711 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:40:56am

re: #174 flyingcloud

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

First, one cannot refute empirical science by quoting scripture. Second, why is it so hard for you to believe that God could employ evolution as the mechanism by means of which we were made, and cause complexity by just the iteration of a few simple rules? Third, if a deity conjured all living things up independently and as is from scratch, then it must be very complex. So who or what made it? It would have to be an even more complex being, that was created in turn by one even more complex, and on and on, ad nauseum ad infinitum - turtles all the way down a bottomless pit. But if you maintain that God requires no such creating explanation, then why are you requiring that God be terrestrial life's creating explanation? It makes no Occam's Razor sense.

712 redc1c4  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:41:17am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

another one rises to the blade:

Registered since: Mar 20, 2009 at 12:03 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

shall i clear some room on the grill?

713 Ubergeek  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:42:04am

re: #524 Westward Ho

Well, not answering as a dittohead here, but my opinion is that you'd have to have incredibly poor reading comprehension to support a Young Earth model via a literal reading of Genesis (Bereshit). There are certainly variant translations from the Hebrew (this just happened to be the first hit on Bereshit), but they pretty much fall along the same lines:

In the beginning God created heaven and earth. The earth was without form and empty, with darkness on the face of the depths, but God's spirit moved on the water's surface. God said, 'There shall be light,' and light came into existence. God saw that the light was good, and God divided between the light and the darkness. God named the light 'Day,' and the darkness He named 'Night.' It was evening and it was morning, one day.

So the heavens and the earth existed prior to the creation of the light. In my reading, it's impossible to come up with a biblical age based upon number of days. I suppose 7th Day Adventists could put a spin on that for me though - as I understand it, they observe the traditional Shabbat and would start their first day with the dark. (I'm pretty much excluding Judaism from the Young Earthers because the YE crowd seems to be predominately Christian - and particular sects thereof).

714 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:44:57am

re: #706 redc1c4

Ft Benning..... Harmony Church School for Excitable Boys, my alma mater.

I find the part I bolded hilarious. Aren't all boys (and girls for that matter) excitable? Isn't that natural?

I don't want to meet the kid that doesn't day dream, or spaz out like a dork over their favorite cartoon/toy/superhero/video game/etc.

715 Ubergeek  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:45:55am

re: #557 Gus 802

Ubergeek
Karma: 2
Registered since: Dec 14, 2008 at 5:39 pm
(Logged in)
No. of comments posted: 9
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

Wow. Guess I'll have to put that in my description. "Rogue Dinger". Kind of has a nice ring to it.

716 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:46:41am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

Great second comment. Better get some more in before Charles as I think your time here will be short.

717 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:48:18am

re: #712 redc1c4

another one rises to the blade:

Registered since: Mar 20, 2009 at 12:03 pm
No. of comments posted: 2
No. of links posted: 0

shall i clear some room on the grill?

Well, with his chum here:

Ubergeek
Karma: 2
Registered since: Dec 14, 2008 at 5:39 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 10
No. of links posted: 0
Recent comments

... you might want to make room for two.

}:)     [Damn shame I'm off to bed now.  Enjoy, everyone!]

718 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:49:27am

re: #716 Erik The Red

Great second comment. Better get some more in before Charles WAKES Up as I think your time here will be short.

FTFM

719 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:52:49am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

It may just be your lucky day. 6 gone. Number 7 is going to be pimp. You will be the 8th lucky person to get the stick on this thread.

Sucks to be you. :)

720 BatGuano  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:53:44am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

That was absolutely undigested and incomprehensible. I'm sure you had a point in that devils brew of illiteracy, but perhaps you should take a another step back and restate that in standard English. Thank you.

721 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:53:52am

re: #253 flyingcloud

I am not. We are God's creation. Those who worship Him will immitate Him.
Jesus said in John 5:19-24
19Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does. 20For the Father loves the Son and shows him all he does. Yes, to your amazement he will show him even greater things than these. 21For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son gives life to whom he is pleased to give it.

God is continuely creating and we who love Him continuely hearing and copying what He does towards ever increasing glory.

I could quote the Lotus Sutra, the Zend Avesta, the Rig Veda, the Tao Te Ching, or the Quran, and it would proves just as much concerning evolution, one way or another.

That is, it wouldn't prove a damn thing.

722 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:00:59am

re: #710 Slumbering Behemoth

Hair splitter!

723 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:02:37am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

Why does the author of this blog obsess with creationism?


Why do so called "conservative" pundits and politicians obsess over established science? I think that is a better question.


In a time, where our civilization is under attack form outside and most importantly from within, namely from left-wing post-modernists

You should realize that this "left-wing post modernist" threat grows, in large part, precisely because of the blinkered anti-science, anti-reason positions of prominent republicans and so called "conservatives". Shooting yourself in the foot is no cure for a bleeding foot.

who are for sure under no suspicion of being creationist, this blog, which has a not neglectable leverage on young conservatives, (conservation of this civilization that is) keeps insulting ("pathetic"!) religious Christians and Jews.

You not only completely fail to understand "conservatives" and "creationists", you also fail to include Islamic, Shintoist, and many other brands of creationism in you argument. Or is it your contention that the Judeo-Christian brand of creationism is the only one that should be held above criticism?

What does it matter if someone is "creationist" when he is not an antisemite?


Silly non sequitor.

And anyway, why are enlightened atheists so keen on descending from monkeys? One can accept it as a fact, as I do, but being thrilled by it is, in my eyes, a sign of nihilism and decay.


Stupid strawman.

724 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:06:42am

re: #722 theheat

Hair splitter!

Heh!

725 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:07:16am

re: #722 theheat

Hair splitter!

It's tongue pisser. Get it right!
/

726 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:09:08am

re: #283 BingoBunny

I can't let that be my last word.. all my comments have just tried to raise a few little points.. much as I like this to be true.. it has a big smell test I won't overcome in one day or several 100..

People its encased in Plastic.. nothing? chirp chirp

I have a bridge to sell you in Brooklyn.. slight problem see.. it was covered in all this plastic.. and the State needs 50 billion dollars to have Union workers clean it off.. but I'm sure a go getter Capitalist like you can find a cleaning crew who work for minimum wage who will do it for half that.. Soooo the Bridge is yours for only 25 million.. what ya say?

Hmm...the argument from ignorance blended with the argument from incredulity (a form of ad hominem ridicule). Two 2500 year old Greek logical fallacies that mutually complement when savored by the idiotarian palate.

727 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:11:27am

re: #724 freetoken

It's amazing how often the anvil is employed to quell the opposition.

728 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:18:36am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

You realize that the more fanatical wing of these creationists you're not worried about are actively seeking to undermine the Constitution? I'm sure you're likely not aware, and I doubt you care. But- perhaps if you had taken some time to look at why Charles is "obsessing" on this topic, you might have learned this, maybe even come to understand why some feel it's an important issue.

P.S. The big money behind American creationism is also in bed with islamic creationists.

729 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:28:34am

I really don't have a dog in this fight, I can live with either creationism, or evolution. However, I need a little bit more evidence before I add Ida to my family tree. She may be the "missing link", or she maybe not. I used to really believe in science, really, but it has become so politicized and agenda driven that I don't trust scientists anymore. There are too many factions screaming that theirs is the only truth. I will just have to figure it out myself.

Mark

730 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:28:42am

re: #174 flyingcloud

Charles, if humans can make a robot, why is it so hard to believe that someone made us? What we lived in is a reality created by God. The spirit gives live and the flesh profits nothing(john 6:63). The bible said when the appointed time comes, each of us will get a glorified new body. We are all software. When one die and if one believes in Jesus, one gets saved in a disk somewhere, and loaded onto the new hardware(body)! But those who do not believe, their copy will not be saved and transported to the new world God is making, they end up dying with the existing world.

So you're saying that even God doesn't pay attention to backups.

731 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:35:38am

re: #729 retief_99

I really don't have a dog in this fight, I can live with either creationism, or evolution. However, I need a little bit more evidence before I add Ida to my family tree. She may be the "missing link", or she maybe not. I used to really believe in science, really, but it has become so politicized and agenda driven that I don't trust scientists anymore. There are too many factions screaming that theirs is the only truth. I will just have to figure it out myself.

This is the crucial difference between science and scientists, and why science must be taught without the freight of one side or the other. And on the ID side, it's all freight, baby. No science.

If you are disgusted by the ill-informed but very well funded totalitarian Global Warming hysteria, you are not disappointed in science; you are defending science.
Global warming may be real, it may be man-made, but nothing justifies the ignorant screeching surrounding it, funding its study, and stepping on humanity to forcibly concentrate power and wealth in the hands of those few approved of by the Kyoto protocol.
ON THE OTHER HAND, I would be even less justified in smugly claiming that the world is hot because God wants it that way, and that's where the science class should end.

732 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:36:18am

re: #729 retief_99

I used to really believe in science, really, but it has become so politicized and agenda driven that I don't trust scientists anymore. There are too many factions screaming that theirs is the only truth.

Which is, of course, exactly what Limbaugh is trying to get you to believe.

733 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:40:54am

re: #727 theheat

Day in and day out, the hammer relentlessly, furiously assails the anvil. Yet the result is always the same, it is the anvil that cracks the hammer.

/has nothing to do with your post, just a goofy thing I like to throw out now and again.

734 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:46:57am

re: #732 freetoken

Rush Limbaugh didn't ell me that, I figured it out for myself. Most proponents of global warming completely ignore the most powerful factors in the shaping of earth's climate, we accept the word of people who don't even have a scientifically based education to tell us what will happen to our climate 50 years from now. Any scientific opinions which go against the "accepted model' are derided and the the author personally attacked. Schools and universities do not teach critical thinking any more, they mold their students into the accepted model.

Mark

735 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:55:14am

re: #733 Slumbering Behemoth

Day in and day out, the hammer relentlessly, furiously assails the anvil. Yet the result is always the same, it is the anvil that cracks the hammer.

/has nothing to do with your post, just a goofy thing I like to throw out now and again.

I;m trying to remember a quote something like "The rock breaks the waves, the waves break the rock". It wasn't in this after all:
Natural Science -- RUSH*
(Words by neil peart, music by geddy lee and alex lifeson)

I. tide pools
When the ebbing tide retreats
Along the rocky shoreline
It leaves a trail of tidal pools
In a short-lived galaxy
Each microcosmic planet
A complete society

A simple kind mirror
To reflect upon our own
All the busy little creatures
Chasing out their destinies
Living in their pools
They soon forget about the sea...

Wheels within wheels
In a spiral array
A pattern so grand
And complex
Time after time
We lose sight of the way
Our causes cant see
Their effects

Ii. hyperspace
A quantum leap forward
In time and in space
The universe learned to expand

The mess and the magic
Triumphant and tragic
A mechanized world, out of hand

Computerized clinic
For superior cynics
Who dance to a synthetic band

In their own image
Their world is fashioned ---
No wonder they dont understand

Wheels within wheels
In a spiral array
A pattern so grand
And complex
Time after time
We lose sight of the way
Our causes cant see
Their effects

Iii. permanent waves
Science, like nature
Must also be tamed
With a view towards its preservation
Given the same
State of integrity
It will surely serve us well

Art as expression ---
Not as market campaigns
Will still capture our imaginations
Given the same
State of integrity
It will surely help us along

The most endangered species ---
The honest man
Will still survive annihilation
Forming a world ---
State of integrity
Sensitive, open, and strong

Wave after wave
Will flow with the tide
And bury the world as it does
Tide after tide
Will flow and recede
Leaving life to go on
As it was...

* How perverse to see RUSH v Rush.

736 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:55:19am

re: #729 retief_99

Do you have any empirical evidence to support creationism like the mountains of empirical evidence that supports evolution?

737 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:56:21am

re: #733 Slumbering Behemoth

Anvil, rock, paper, scissors. But then, how do you explain the most reliable of parlor tricks, painting a mural of a tunnel and luring your foe to drive through it, over a cliff, or into solid rock?

Yeah. 'Splain that one ;-)

738 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:56:52am

re: #736 Sharmuta

Like I said, that argument doesn't matter to me.

Mark

739 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:02:18am

re: #738 retief_99

Like I said, that argument doesn't matter to me.

Mark

Shar, May I?

740 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:03:11am

Puh-leeeze?

741 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:04:00am

re: #542 poovey1171

Geez Charles! Stop with this Creationist/Evolution Bullshit! The fact of the matter is we don't know jack sh*t and some old rocks aren't going to explain it for us.

A century and a half of intense empirical investigaion and experiment has taught us a shitload about evolution, boyo. Just because YOU are jack shit ignorant about what fossils and genomes have revealed doesn't mean that the REST of us are.

742 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:06:12am

re: #735 haakondahl

Interesting that you reference music in response. The whole hammer/anvil thing stuck with me due to this song, from a "rougher" genre, based on this lone verse:

The anvil cracks the hammer.

743 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:07:17am

re: #552 poovey1171

LGF has always been anti-idiotarian, and no one's pet idiotarianism gets a free pass here, including yours. Tough shit that the idiotic ox getting jusitifiably gored here happens to be one of your sacred cows.

744 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:07:31am

re: #737 theheat

Anvil, rock, paper, scissors. But then, how do you explain the most reliable of parlor tricks, painting a mural of a tunnel and luring your foe to drive through it, over a cliff, or into solid rock?

Yeah. 'Splain that one ;-)

Intelligent design?

745 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:10:41am

re: #744 Slumbering Behemoth

Ouch. That's gonna leave a mark.

746 zuckerlilly  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:12:03am

Ida is the new Google-emblem og the day

747 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:14:18am

re: #742 Slumbering Behemoth

Sorry, no youtube here. What's the ref?

It's a fairly popular metaphor for a number of things. One of my favorites is a conversation between Caius Brittanicus and Publius Varrus in Jack Whyte's The Sky Stone. Wonderful book, great series of books.

I think that the antiquity and ubiquity of the anvil (perhaps the fourth tool invented by Man, off the top of my head) make it one of those ideas that seems genetic to Mankind.

748 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:15:35am

re: #738 retief_99

What utter crap. You claim to need evidence to add Ida to your family tree, but you don't require any other scientific evidence to support any other aspect of science such as evolution?

Here's a hint- there i no evidence to support Biblical creationism. NONE. There is a mountain to support evolution.

I suspect you're not going to accept Ida, and you're not going to support any other science either because you've already made up your mind that science is flawed because science is now politicized in your words. If you want to bring an end to that, the solution isn't tossing the baby out with the bath water but to support the scientific method- which guards against false and misleading data. The fact that you don't care is very telling. You should care about science otherwise I don't know why you're enjoying its fruits.

749 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:17:20am

It's 3:00 AM, and Tyra Banks* is on TV. Time for me to LTFD and STFU.

G'nite, Lizards. Many happy returns.

*As gorgeous as she is, her show leaves much to be desired. Hell, at least she hasn't gone all anti-vax wacko. And she did do a show about FGM, so I guess that goes in the plus column for her.

750 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:20:19am

re: #749 Slumbering Behemoth

G'night. Please be ever vigilant for Tyra's wig glue. It gets the best of her sometimes. Even divas have their off days.

751 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:22:40am

re: #558 pimp_conservative

Maybe we should tolerate astrology and alchemy in public schools, too, huh? As far as the hoary old creationist canard of evolution being 'just a theory', this demonstrates an abject, utter, and blatant ignorance of what the word 'theory' means in scientific parlance, as opposed to its connotation in common discourse, how empirical science proceeds (by induction, which does not absolutely prove things, but settles for empiically demonstrasting them beyond rational statistical doubt), and the distinction between evolution, which is fact, and the mechanisms by which evolution proceeds, which is where the theory comes in. Here's what the US National Academy of Sciences has to say about it:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"Some scientific explanations are so well established that no new evidence is likely to alter them. The explanation becomes a scientific theory. In everyday language a theory means a hunch or speculation. Not so in science. In science, the word theory refers to a comprehensive explanation of an important feature of nature supported by facts gathered over time. Theories also allow scientists to make predictions about as yet unobserved phenomena."

"A scientific theory is a well-substantiated explanation of some aspect of the natural world, based on a body of facts that have been repeatedly confirmed through observation and experiment. Such fact-supported theories are not "guesses" but reliable accounts of the real world. The theory of biological evolution is more than "just a theory." It is as factual an explanation of the universe as the atomic theory of matter or the germ theory of disease. Our understanding of gravity is still a work in progress. But the phenomenon of gravity, like evolution, is an accepted fact."

I sincerely doubt that the world's leading paleontologists would spend two years studying a single fossil in order to lie about it, or that they would be grossly mistaken about it after such a lengthy and painstakingly meticulous perusal with all the technological assets at their disposal.

Shame on your for defending the ignorant and pandering idiocy of one logorrheic bloviator while comparing our insightful and discerning host to another one.

752 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:23:29am

re: #747 haakondahl

Lamb of God - Blood of the Scribe.

A metal band. My references are not nearly as sophisticated as those better versed in history in literature. I say this not as a slam at "intellectuals", but merely as a statement of fact. I am not well versed in most literature or much of history.

G'nite again.

753 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:23:56am

SO here's a little metaphor. Our technologically dependent, quite successful society is like a car, moved by technology, fueled by science. Now you all in the passenger compartment can play whatever morality you want on the radio, and we'll have that argument while we're all in the car. It may even help keep the car between the lines. But don't go pouring holy water into the fuel tank, or I'll club you with this wrench.

754 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:25:35am

re: #753 haakondahl

But don't go pouring holy water into the fuel tank, or I'll club you with this wrench.

Whole new meaning to Holy Roller, huh? ;)

755 mgscheue  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:26:47am

This doesn't surprise me. I've heard Rush blather about evolution before. The man is an embarrassment whenever he opens his mouth about anything connected with science. It's really unfortunate because he's often right about a lot of things but certainly not this.

756 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:30:19am

re: #752 Slumbering Behemoth

Lamb of God - Blood of the Scribe.

A metal band. My references are not nearly as sophisticated as those better versed in history in literature. I say this not as a slam at "intellectuals", but merely as a statement of fact. I am not well versed in most literature or much of history.

G'nite again.

Uh, if you're talking about my own book reference, it's a novel, pretty recent, too. Just a good book recommendation.

757 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:32:07am

re: #748 Sharmuta

I don't recall saying I supported either evolution or creationism. I simply stated that I needed more proof that Ida was indeed the missing link. The presumption was apparently made after just a few weeks of study, most of her life after discovery was spent in a private collection as a curio with no scientific study at all. The accepted theory for years has been that man and apes descended from unique creature that was neither man nor ape and somewhere along the millinea we split into the two paths. It took almost 75 years for scientists to figure out they had put the wrong head on a brontosaurus skeleton, so lets do a little more research before we make such statements that this is the discovery of the century, or this creature is the forebear of both man and ape.

Mark

758 Ubergeek  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:35:37am

re: #749 Slumbering Behemoth

I had to go lookup anti-vax. I knew it couldn't be related to DEC, but I just couldn't guess what it else it would be.

759 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:35:41am

re: #569 pimp_conservative

BS you with my credentials? LOLOLOL. I am in no way a creationist. I think they are largely a laughable lot, but it is an unimportant issue. They will never gain sway. We have greater problems than that. Still, Charles is focusing on this and it is pointless. Its his blog and he can do what he wants, but he is turning into the anti-creationist Andrew Sullivan.

As for what evolution is, it is an unproven theory. Plain and simple. One fossil will not prove it to be true. For all we know, we could be seeded on this planet by aliens. We simply do not know.

This blog can handle multiple idiotarianisms, such as creationism-in-public-scholl pushers, empirial-science-deniers, anti-vaxxers, troofers, nirthers, economic socialists, and antijihadis who play footsie with euroneonazis, all at the same time.

As for the gratuitously false 'unproven theory' canard, see my # 751. And we have MILLIONS of fossils, of all kinds of extinct species, demonstrating transitional sequence similarities, plus we have the artifuctual retroviral sequence evidence, empirically checkable and recheckable at will, that conclusively demonstrates ancient common ape-human ancestry.

I don't care if you're hung up on being desended from a damn dirty prehominid. I'd be more upset if I was directly formed from a celestial cosmic muddy spitball.

760 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:40:04am

re: #757 retief_99

This is what you said:

I can live with either creationism, or evolution.

You're a science denier. Why don't you just say so? Because anyone who could say something like this doesn't support science.

761 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:41:54am

re: #757 retief_99

I don't recall saying I supported either evolution or creationism. I simply stated that I needed more proof that Ida was indeed the missing link.

Way to go with the false equality of two viewpoints. And you are free to wait for more evidence. I hope you won't mind if we continue to dismiss patent silliness out of hand as nonsense. You might say that we're still waiting for the first piece of evidence from creationism.

At least with astrology, there are measurable forces involved. Or of course, not involved in the slightest.

762 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:42:12am

re: #576 pimp_conservative

Yes, apparently it was "proven" today with the find of a fossil. It is not a proven theory, which is why we have had the "missing link" for all of my 33 years and more of existence. We simply do not know how legitimate todays news is and even if real, one fossil does not prove a missing link.

You don't even understand which link this is. It isn't the link between humans and great apes; it's the link between protohominids (including humans and geat apes) and the rest of mammalia.

Once again, see my #751 regarding your gratuitously false 'just an unproven theory' canard.

763 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:43:57am

re: #581 pimp_conservative

Believe what you want, I have no need to prove my bonafides to a nameless screenname. Anyone who knows me knows that I have defended LGF on a number of other sites countless times. If Charles really cares, I'll give him the other two names I have posted with over time so he can verify the length of my readership himself, but you can piss off.

Nice invitation, after you've pissed ON the place...

764 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:45:16am

re: #734 retief_99

[...] Most proponents of global warming completely ignore the most powerful factors in the shaping of earth's climate, we accept the word of people who don't even have a scientifically based education to tell us what will happen to our climate 50 years from now. [...]

We got to come up with a name for this.... For now I'm calling it the "AGW Shuffle", maybe "CC-trot" could work too.

Something tells me that your claim, that you came up with this by yourself, just isn't truly as independent as you might want to believe.

765 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:45:20am

Sal- quit quoting some of that junk....

766 zuckerlilly  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:47:20am

re: #734 retief_99

You too confuse the issue.

ID/creationism scientists misused science to politicize their belief. Politicians/NGO's/speculators misuse scientists and science to promote their agenda.

In the first case scientists are the one who misuse science and therefore are the active one, in the second case scientists and science are misused and therefore are the passive one.

That makes a huge difference.

767 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:47:38am

Maybe the "Limbaugh 2-Step" will work... yeah, that could stick, the "Limbaugh 2-Step" ...

768 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:50:43am

re: #588 pimp_conservative

I think this fossil find is absolutely fantastic, but in the grand scheme of things it just doesn't matter. We are here now, we have problems now that make this stupid creationist/intelligent design "debate" pale in significance. Tomorrow, no one will care about this fossil other than a bunch of pencil necked geeks and the anti-religion crowd, but while you all revel in a long dead animal, the rest of the world is suffering from a malicious disease called Islamic fascism, our country spirals towards socialist fascism while the economy and livelihood of millions flushes down the toilet. This fossil just doesn't matter. Creationism just doesn't matter. We have bigger problems facing us.

A thousand years from now, this fossil will be in biology textbooks if the human race survives. It all matters, and there is room for it all on this blog.

And I have my degree, and have served in the US military and studied martial arts. Call me a pencil-necked geek to my face and I'll rip off your fucking head and shit down your windpipe.

769 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:51:27am

I don't know if Sal will check the comment tail on his drive to comprehensively refute every word spoken by certain parties.

770 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:03am

re: #760 Sharmuta

I cannot argue against your comment as you have already defined what I think. I submit to your assessment of me and I am happy to now know what I believe.

Mark

771 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:53:45am

re: #765 Sharmuta

Sal- quit quoting some of that junk....

Sorry; I just hates me some anti-intellectual assholes...

772 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:57:00am
773 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:57:48am

re: #761 haakondahl

I am saying that what people believe about either creationism or evolution is not important enough to me to engage in an argument about the subject. It has nothing to do with whether Ida is the missing link or not. I believe we don't know Ida well enough to make the claims about her offspring that are being made now.

Mark

774 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:57:58am

re: #768 Salamantis

Call me a pencil-necked geek to my face and I'll rip off your fucking head and shit down your windpipe.

As I have quite intentionally selected a rather pencil-necked specimen for my avatar, I don't suppose I'll join in issuing that threat. But you go, girl. And see my wrench comment.

I do, however, wonder if our nearly-departed acquaintance would care to conduct a poll of the Taliban, of whose influence he is so concerned, and ask which explanation of the world they favor--creationism or evolution?

There is a reason for that, and at heart, that is why this blog concerns itself so much with this issue. No distraction at all.

775 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:03:00am

re: #607 pimp_conservative

You all sadden me a lot. I am on your side more than you know or believe. Your response to my feelings on this matter reeks of the same intolerance we have been fighting with regards to the Islamo-fascist agenda. By your own words, evolution is still unproven yet you attack me for merely voicing concern that we are being bogged down in minutiae, for expressing disappointment at the turn of discussion this blog has done over the past year.

The french phenomenologist Paul Ricouer once opined that the one thing that tolerant people could not in all good conscience tolerate is the coercive intolerance of others. And theocratically imperialist creationists are indeed coercively intolerant, since they are attempting to abuse the machinery of the state in order to indoctrinate other peoples' kids in their pet sectarian religious dogmas in public school science class. The facrt that they are endeavoring to do such a thing means that they are much more than merely minutiae; they represent a clear and present danger to the bioscience education of our children.

776 MandyManners  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:04:06am

I love the smell of urine in the morning!

777 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:05:03am

re: #610 pimp_conservative

How have I been unreasonable? By voicing concern that he is becoming a anti-creationist version of Andrew Sullivan? If that is unreasonable, then Charles and you all have thinner skin and less debating ability than I thought.

Says the person whose argument of first resort is to engage in false and gratuitous ad hominem fallacies.

778 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:09:24am

re: #777 Salamantis

Says the person whose argument of first resort is to engage in false and gratuitous ad hominem fallacies.

Hey Sal. 777 jackpot. :)

779 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:09:39am

re: #622 pimp_conservative

Again, by your own words, you support my point about evolution being unproven. Not fully proven is unproven! I could care less about evolution, about intelligent design, and would be happy to find out that Stargate is the truth of our existence, but in the end, it just does not matter. We have bigger problems facing our country and our civilization than creationism. Your intolerance only alienates your friends from your cause.

It matters. We are presently successfully employing the genetic mechanism the mutation and environmental selection of which is the means by which evolutionary change proceeds in order to engineer better food crops. It's called gene-splicing. What works is true.

780 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:14:16am

re: #639 pimp_conservative

I care that this focus on evolution and intelligent design, themselves meaningless in the grand scheme of things, is detracting from the fight against the greater problems we face.

The theocratically imperialist push to miseducate our children is indeed one of the more significant problems we face. It endangers us in both the economic and the national security arenas.

781 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:16:39am

re: #771 Salamantis

Reply function is our friend! :)

782 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:17:40am

re: #656 pimp_conservative

You are all rather sad pathetic creatures who feel the need to belittle and insult others through the safety and distance of a computer screen. No wonder you are all so lonely and friendless.

Good luck to your efforts, Charles, and best wishes to your continued success. I hope to see a refocused effort on attacking the larger issues and perhaps in the process weeding out the intolerance plaguing your forums.

I have a funny feeling that Charles will be proceeding along this weeding out process by jettisoning your own anti-science intolerance.

783 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:19:04am

re: #770 retief_99

I cannot argue against your comment as you have already defined what I think. I submit to your assessment of me and I am happy to now know what I believe.

Mark

Look, Mark- you're willing to embrace creationism even though there isn't a shed of evidence to support it, so yeah- I think you're anti-science. If you weren't, you wouldn't have said such a thing as "I can live with either creationism, or evolution". Puh-lease.

784 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:20:27am

re: #769 haakondahl

Haak- I love ya. And Sal is my friend too. I'm not getting in the middle of this. Just wish you guys could find a way to reconcile this, because for the most part, you guys are on the same side here. *sigh*

785 bobbuck  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:26:14am

If you're curious about Evolution/ID/Creationism breakdowns by party [Gallup]:
[Link: www.gallup.com...]

You might find this other link interesting:
Many High School Biology Teachers Still Teach Creationism [Wired]:
[Link: www.wired.com...]

Not evolution related but kinda scary [WRPI]:
Aspiring school teachers fail in math
[Link: www.wpri.com...]

786 retief_99  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:30:33am

re: #783 Sharmuta

This is my last attempt. I do not care if people believe in creationism or in evolution, I do not care, what I believe as far as this arena is known only to me. I have not embraced creationism. I simply am not ready to accept that in 3 months of study scientists have concluded that Ida is the creature that defines the juncture from which both man and ape sprang.

Mark

787 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:31:39am

re: #709 Last Man Standing

I used to appreciate Little Green Footballs as a voice of sanity in the mostly obscure blog sphere. However, lately it seems that this blog is joining or trying to initiate some kind of holy inquisition that persecutes all heresy against the divine truth of science. Why this high pitched fancy?
Why does the author of this blog obsess with creationism?

This blog owner is concerned with ALL the various and sundry idiotarianisms that memetically infect the fabric of this great nation. And your attempt to disingenuously equate dogmatic religion and empirical science is noted and rejected, because the bright line of the presence vs. the absence of empirical evidence cannot be rhetorically erased.

In a time, where our civilization is under attack form outside and most importantly from within, namely from left-wing post-modernists, who are for sure under no suspicion of being creationist, this blog, which has a not neglectable leverage on young conservatives, (conservation of this civilization that is) keeps insulting ("pathetic"!) religious Christians and Jews. These people, not coincidently, in their majority are on the side of the civilization in its all or nothing struggle with barbarity, however disagreeable their views might be on some issues.
What does it matter if someone is "creationist" when he is not an antisemite?

ALL religious dogmas, of whatever religion, should be kept out of public school science class. And it matters big-time when creationists endeavor to shoehorn their pet religious dogmas into it.

And anyway, why are enlightened atheists so keen on descending from monkeys? One can accept it as a fact, as I do, but being thrilled by it is, in my eyes, a sign of nihilism and decay.

Accepting empirical facts is a sign of rationality and reason. Rejecting them is a sign of reality-denial. And shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences conclusively demonstrate that humans and great apes evolutionarily diverged from ancient common ancestors.

788 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:35:38am

re: #784 Sharmuta

Haak- I love ya. And Sal is my friend too. I'm not getting in the middle of this. Just wish you guys could find a way to reconcile this, because for the most part, you guys are on the same side here. *sigh*

Oh, absolutely. I just didn't know if he would be checking the tails, and he's a big boy--I'm not worried about him flipping out if I comment on the length (and breadth, depth, frequency and thoroughness) of his refutations of minutiae--I've even up-dinged him here and there. On this thread even. And the only reason I'm referring to him in third person is because you're pretty much here, and he's pretty much upthread. And probably you saw by now, but I spoke to Sal a couple of comments ago, to boot. I think explaining things would be counterproductive, so I'll just leave it at that.

789 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:35:46am

re: #786 retief_99

WTF are you talking about?! They've studied her for TWO YEARS.

No wonder you have difficulties.

790 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:40:42am

re: #757 retief_99

I don't recall saying I supported either evolution or creationism. I simply stated that I needed more proof that Ida was indeed the missing link. The presumption was apparently made after just a few weeks of study, most of her life after discovery was spent in a private collection as a curio with no scientific study at all. The accepted theory for years has been that man and apes descended from unique creature that was neither man nor ape and somewhere along the millinea we split into the two paths. It took almost 75 years for scientists to figure out they had put the wrong head on a brontosaurus skeleton, so lets do a little more research before we make such statements that this is the discovery of the century, or this creature is the forebear of both man and ape.

Mark

Try two years of intensive study by our foremost paleontological minds, with all the technological means available at their disposal, of a 95% complete fossil skeleton.

791 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:41:44am

re: #788 haakondahl

You, me, Sal, some trolls- now we just need some beer and coals for the grill.

792 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:44:28am
793 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:45:20am

re: #786 retief_99

This is my last attempt. I do not care if people believe in creationism or in evolution, I do not care, what I believe as far as this arena is known only to me. I have not embraced creationism. I simply am not ready to accept that in 3 months of study scientists have concluded that Ida is the creature that defines the juncture from which both man and ape sprang.

Mark

See Sharmuta's #789, and my #790.

794 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:55:22am

re: #786 retief_99

This is my last attempt. I do not care if people believe in creationism or in evolution, I do not care, what I believe as far as this arena is known only to me. I have not embraced creationism. I simply am not ready to accept that in 3 months of study scientists have concluded that Ida is the creature that defines the juncture from which both man and ape sprang.

Mark

Fine, but:

First, your whole "what I believe is known only to me" journo-schtick is a provocation. LGF is not a cage full of monkeys for you to conduct experiments upon. Say what you think, or shut up. In or out.

Second, if you are actually on the borderline of some issue and you see a bunch of fur flying about it--you will always get shot in the crossfire. Commit or stay away. That's not a plea for ideological purity (which must feel great in the grave), but just some common sense. That holding up your hands and wading into the middle of a fight only works in the movies, unless your goal is to get a black eye.

Third, is there a specific point regarding Ida that you would like to take issue with? Please take this as a rhetorical question as far as I am concerned--I will be leaving soon, and I do not want to be accused (or indeed, guilty) of drawing you into a conversation and then bailing. But since you have a problem with the conclusion, perhaps there are some supporting points youo could address. Or maybe it's just the time issue--which strikes me as a weak refutation when stronger ones must be available.

I looked at your comments from a month ago, and despite you only having 25 posts since 2004, last month you didn't sound like you were trawling for a fight. So as I said, Fine.

795 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:00:16am

re: #792 Ackomanyuki

Ack! I don't know what the Hell you are talking about, but Long Time No See!

796 Sharmuta  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:00:20am

re: #792 Ackomanyuki

That's just crude.

797 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:21:16am
798 katemaclaren  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:36:53am

I was listening, by chance, to the very program when Rush said that, but it was either irony or sarcasm that I detected. I'm not a Rush Limbaugh fan, but I hear him often since his program follows someone I do listen to. So, I'm quite used to the way he makes transitions from the some current bit of news to the nitty gritty (stuff that affects us all in a more direct way). When I heard him say this (and the quote is completely correct), the tone he used sounded typical to me --like he was using one of his rhetorical transitions and that this discovery isn't going to affect our day to day lives while THIS one is...
Hence the link to our economy, etc. I would be quite surprised to hear that Rush Limbaugh is a creationist. Because this is such a hot button issue here on LGF, I immediately pricked up my ears and listened quite carefully when he made that statement because I was wondering whether this fossil--er--shoe was about to drop--but it didn't. He went on to his transition as usual.

799 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:38:32am

re: #798 katemaclaren

I was listening, by chance, to the very program when Rush said that, but it was either irony or sarcasm that I detected. I'm not a Rush Limbaugh fan, but I hear him often since his program follows someone I do listen to. So, I'm quite used to the way he makes transitions from the some current bit of news to the nitty gritty (stuff that affects us all in a more direct way). When I heard him say this (and the quote is completely correct), the tone he used sounded typical to me --like he was using one of his rhetorical transitions and that this discovery isn't going to affect our day to day lives while THIS one is...
Hence the link to our economy, etc. I would be quite surprised to hear that Rush Limbaugh is a creationist. Because this is such a hot button issue here on LGF, I immediately pricked up my ears and listened quite carefully when he made that statement because I was wondering whether this fossil--er--shoe was about to drop--but it didn't. He went on to his transition as usual.

What is the preceding show that you listen to?

800 P. Aaron  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:45:03am

On one hand we have a few thousand years of the Bible. On the other we have a few biliion years of the planet's existince folks have just begun to sift through and I see many on both sides jumping to conclusions about what's "settled".

Rush's basic retort to the article seems clear to me: "Oh look, we've found another fossil, so I guess the argument's over!" That's what the article reads like. Personally, I am willing to wait it all out.

You can have science, and you can have religion, but one does not create morals, and the other does not question itself.

801 NukeAtomrod  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:49:32am

I think it's clear that Rush doesn't understand the scientific method. It's a common flaw. At least he hasn't made creationism a central theme in his radio show. It actually took finding the missing link between apes and humans to get him to reveal his personal beliefs. He's wrong, but as long as it doesn't turn into a crusade, I'm willing to give him a pass.

As far as "cross-species" evolution, how about wolves to chiwawas? Somewhere there is a chiwawa screaming "My great granddad was not a wolf!"

802 Drider  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:54:38am

Probably the saddest thing about Limbaugh making his view known on the creationist issue and Beck on his rather alarmist, the sky is falling outlook is that both are right to varying degrees and both should say what they feel be it right or wrong and not risk being tossed under the bus by others in the "correct" party.
I don't agree with anyone 100% of the time but I darn sure can see those who I agree with most of the time and those who are I want on my side and yes, nothing has changed in how the media will portray highly visible conservatives, nothing ever has but the tent has plenty of room at this point for both Limbaugh and Beck regardless of what our enemies may want to mold us into.
And yes, I used the word....enemies....May as well take the varnish off the mamby pamby words we call "political" opponents with where our Country is headed.

803 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:57:26am

re: #798 katemaclaren

Which part of:

[...] Cross species evolution, I don’t think anybody’s ever proven that. They’re going out of their way now to establish evolution as a mechanism for creation, which, of course, you can’t do, [...]

... then, is where we can, according to your belief, not take Limbaugh at his word when he speaks?

Was he really being ironic?

804 S'latch  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:57:43am

Rush Limbaugh believes "cross species evolution" hasn't been proven. That is interesting. I was wondering where he stood on that issue. I thought he was being smart by staying out of it. I generally enjoy his program. I think it is entertaining and humorous. I also agree with him about many things. However, I think Rush Limbaugh is incorrect if he believes that various species were not produced through the process of evolution. I don't think this opinion will change the fact that I still enjoy listening to him on the radio and appreciate his opinions on many other issues.

805 haakondahl  Wed, May 20, 2009 5:58:26am

re: #800 P. Aaron

On one hand we have a few thousand years of the Bible. On the other we have a few biliion years of the planet's existince folks have just begun to sift through and I see many on both sides jumping to conclusions about what's "settled".

Rush's basic retort to the article seems clear to me: "Oh look, we've found another fossil, so I guess the argument's over!" That's what the article reads like. Personally, I am willing to wait it all out.

You can have science, and you can have religion, but one does not create morals, and the other does not question itself.

If youo have a point to make, go ahead and make it. Meanwhile, here's mine: Science is to be taught in the science classroom, and not in the church. Religion is to be taught in the church and not in the science classroom. The key non-issue here is whether ID constitutes science or religion, and it is religion, not science. If you will admit that, then you won't have any problems here.

806 freetoken  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:06:08am

re: #801 NukeAtomrod

At least he hasn't made creationism a central theme in his radio show.

He has a long history, though, of attempting to set himself up as an alternative authority on matters pertaining to science (and quite a few other things too), to embellish himself to his audience.

In that manner he is no different than many talking heads on radio or television.

807 Sabba Hillel  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:17:56am

I find it interesting that both sides seem to get the entire thing wrong. The "advocates" of evolution seem to argue that because evolution is the technique that G-d seems to be using to run the world (we cannot make definite conclusions about any world other than our own) then that somehow "proves" that there is no G-d. There are those who seem to try to derive moral laws from the scientific appearance.

The ID advocates seem to be arguing that because G-d seems to be using evolution to run the world then the "Laws" of evolution must be flawed and require obvious intervention in order to work. This seems to go against the religious belief that G-d is omnipotent, omniscient, and perfect.

Consider the necessary logic of creation. The Bible states that creation caused "fruit trees bearing fruit". Mushrooms had to be created with dead trees in order to survive. Herd animals had to be created with the full range of herd members. Thus, whether the world was created 5 minutes ago, 5,000 years ago, or 5 billion years ago, we would not be able to tell from measurements inside the universe. Unless we actually find the URL sticker for the earth, we cannot know, aside from our religious beliefs, exactly when the universe was created.

I think that both sides need to step back and realize this and not trumpet every claim as if it was received truth given in a revelation from Sinai (or via Cecil B. DeMille).

One of the fundamental beliefs is that of free will. One of the logical consequences of that is the requirement that there can be no absolute proof. Otherwize, people would not be free to make misteaks (sic).

808 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:26:19am

Most if not all Christians are creationists. That has been true for eons. The fact that Christians/creationists are offended by science/Darwin/evolution and that they insist that ID be taught in/as science class is the problem.

809 theheat  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:29:49am

re: #806 freetoken

Not to mention, Rush revels in defining what "real" conservatives are, actually wanting to shrink that big tent ever-so-much. While some feel, sure, let's just ignore all Rush's pompous offensive bullshit, because there's some good stuff in there, and we can use all the non-bullshit, Rush likes to say, "These people who don't meet my definition of 'conservative', let's kick them to the curb."

And every time he does that, it only emboldens the Becks and Jindals and socons and fundies-on-the-fringe; pretty much shits all over the centrists, and even further alienates anyone wavering on the left.

810 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:34:02am

re: #808 FrogMarch

Umm...NO! There are a lot of Lizards here who count themselves as Christian, me included that ARE NOT creationists. Faith is not science. Science is not faith.

811 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:35:33am

re: #804 Lawrence Schmerel

I agree. Rush is fine when he's on top of his political game. Some of his opinions on other matters make me cringe. Still, if you happen to catch Rush when he's on fire, it's good. Lately, (and I listen a little if I happen to be in my car) I am not very excited by what Rush is saying. His tendencies to be over-the-top absolute in areas like these (and the environment) turn me off.
I'd rather listen to Jason Lewis.

812 pingjockey  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:36:54am

Going to the Overnite thread

813 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:36:55am

re: #810 pingjockey

Umm...NO! There are a lot of Lizards here who count themselves as Christian, me included that ARE NOT creationists. Faith is not science. Science is not faith.

Is creationism the belief that God created the universe?
If so, then I would say that Christians are creationists. But maybe my definition is wrong.

814 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:46:11am

re: #810 pingjockey

Umm...NO! There are a lot of Lizards here who count themselves as Christian, me included that ARE NOT creationists. Faith is not science. Science is not faith.

You're gone, and I'm not trying to be contrary, but, what is the definition of creationist?
I guess it depends on how to define creationism:

Such beliefs include Young Earth creationism, proponents of which believe that the earth is thousands rather than billions of years old. They typically believe the days in Genesis Chapter 1 are 24 hours in length, while Old Earth creationism accepts geological findings and other methods of dating the earth and believes that these findings do not contradict the Genesis account, but reject evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are more compatible with the scientific view of evolution and the age of the Earth. Alternately, there are other religious people who support creation, but in terms of allegorical interpretations of Genesis.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

815 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:49:23am

re: #810 pingjockey

Umm...NO! There are a lot of Lizards here who count themselves as Christian, me included that ARE NOT creationists. Faith is not science. Science is not faith.

I stand by what I said. Most Christians believe that God created the universe. Within that category, some beleive that both the views of science/evolution and their belief in God are compatible:

The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are more compatible with the scientific view of evolution and the age of the Earth.
816 Achilles Tang  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:51:57am

re: #21 SeafoodGumbo

I didn't realize that this creationism stuff was so damn popular. I don't get it. Why is evolution so threatening? It's not like the humans who were our ancestors were all kings and queens. We've all got criminals, morons, and lunatics in our family tree somewhere, so why is it so horrible if there's also a lemur?

It is threatening simply because it, evolution, conflicts with biblical literalism. They feel they have to reject all of their religious teachings since they are incapable of reconciling the two issues, hence science must be evil and out to destroy their religion.

Such people are everywhere, but for some reason in the USA, they appear to have become the dominant force in the once viable alternative to liberal Democrats.

This is the primary reason I'm an independent.

817 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 6:59:44am

re: #808 FrogMarch

sorry frogmarch. all my immediate family are christians we go to mass, and none of us believe the earth is only 6000 years old or any of the other bs. being a christian is not synonymous with being a troglodyte.

and many christians, not all or most, but many understand literal interpretation of the old testamant is not a requirment of faith or disqualification to entering heaven.

its kind of insulting to be lumped like that.

818 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:05:13am

this is what I said in a comment some time back, so I will re-hash it here again.

as a christian I think it makes god small, and turns him into a cartoon character of a god to say the crazy things the creationists say.


the majesty of creation as it has been set in motion with the rules of the cosmos wrapped up around it, chemistry, biology, mathematics, physics,

and yes evolution, are amazing. the product of an amazing higher power I call God.

whereas cartoon dinosuars fighting knights templar in a suedoscience roadside themepark trying to exclaim the granduer that is god by saying dinosaurs were on the planet six thousand years ago fighting noahs grandfather,

is belittling to God and the intelligence he bestowed on us for some greater reason.

819 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:14:04am

re: #817 rumcrook

sorry frogmarch. all my immediate family are christians we go to mass, and none of us believe the earth is only 6000 years old or any of the other bs. being a christian is not synonymous with being a troglodyte.

and many christians, not all or most, but many understand literal interpretation of the old testamant is not a requirment of faith or disqualification to entering heaven.

its kind of insulting to be lumped like that.

It's even more insulting that you didn't read what I wrote.
I'm not lumping all Christians in with young Earth Creationists. do you beleive God created the earth?
Here's the wiki definition again:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Such beliefs include Young Earth creationism, proponents of which believe that the earth is thousands rather than billions of years old. They typically believe the days in Genesis Chapter 1 are 24 hours in length, while Old Earth creationism accepts geological findings and other methods of dating the earth and believes that these findings do not contradict the Genesis account, but reject evolution. The term theistic evolution has been coined to refer to beliefs in creation which are more compatible with the scientific view of evolution and the age of the Earth. Alternately, there are other religious people who support creation, but in terms of allegorical interpretations of Genesis.

820 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:15:14am

as for rush, he is an expert in verbal combat, able to mine deep for the angle, the way to look at the situation and come up with an argument to fight the oposition.

but I dont think all that ability of rush translates necessarily as a deep thinker hes still dogmatic. and anything that apears to be from outside his political world view will be seen through a politcal lense. he doesnt turn it off.

thier is nothing political about this find. unless you know who your catering too.

821 Leatherhelmet  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:16:59am

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

I see PZ Myers says the fossil is important but overhyped. Guess that makes him a creationist too.

I have listened to Limbaugh off and on for 15 years. I don't ever remember him pushing ID or saying that evolution was bunk or hyping creationism or even teaching the bible in school. Now suddenly, he is labeled a creationist because he thinks the fossil is being sold as something it is not -- "THE" missing link. There are alot of scientists this morning who will find themselves suddenly creationists because they are skeptical of this find.

822 Spare O'Lake  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:25:38am

The Creationists should have quit while they were ahead.

Reasonable people, including scientists, are prepared to allow for the possibility that God created the universe by causing the Big Bang or whatever else science might view as the "beginning".

Moreover, reasonable people, including scientists, are even willing to accommodate and accept that people may honestly believe, as a matter of faith, that God decreed all the laws of physics, biology, chemistry, thermodynamics, gravity, and every single other natural law in the universe.

But for some reason this is not good enough for the Creationists. They insist, in addition to the foregoing, that evolution is a bogus theory which is inconsistent with their religious belief that God also created each living species separately.

And then, to top it off, the Creationists insist on ramming their beliefs down the throats of everyone else, by hijacking school curricula and now by attempting to hijack the GOP. And of course by purging from the schools and the party anyone who dissents from their beliefs.

These idealogues may have more in common with the Taliban than with their fellow citizens. And they will eventually suffer the consequences.

823 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:28:46am

your splitting hairs. I did read it.

your comment 808, makes no fine points, and creationism as defined in todays vernacular as talked about on charles blog really has a fairly narrow meaning. no evolution no earth older than 6000 years.

the people pushing this stuff believe they can show knights battling t-rex in a theme park like its the natural science and history museum.

which apparently tars (by your definition) even someone who beleives God was responsible for creating the universe thru a big bang and billoins of years of rules playing out to get to today, as creationists.

824 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:34:52am

rules including evolution by the way..

825 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:37:14am

re: #823 rumcrook

OK. You are focusing on Young Earth Creationism. I am focusing on the basic fact that Christians beleive in God. And that, in general, Christians beleive that God created the universe. I'm not sure what the percentages are, but, within that category you have various belief systems ranging from those who are offended by science and think that science is evil, to those that beleive in God and also beleive/understand/ that scientific/evolutionary discoveries and theories do not conflict with their belief in God. Simplified in my post 815. That is all.

again - here's the Wiki link:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

826 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:38:19am

re: #808 FrogMarch

Most if not all Christians are creationists. That has been true for eons. The fact that Christians/creationists are offended by science/Darwin/evolution and that they insist that ID be taught in/as science class is the problem.

Including the 1.6 billion Roman Catholics who accept evolution as valid, solid and sound science?

827 nccanuck  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:33am

Personally, I beleive in God and that he is the creator of all. Now just how he did it all is beyond what I know now or what science can tell me, you know how we came from nothing to this is pretty much a stretch for science to account for. I think there are things we are just not going to know, we weren't there in the beginning and science can only tell us so much. I am thankful that we do have scientists who are chirstian that are trying to bridge the gap in the "where did we come from" with the secular side.
Check out this site: [Link: biologos.org...]
and this article: [Link: www.pressofatlanticcity.com...]

828 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:41:58am

re: #815 FrogMarch

I stand by what I said. Most Christians believe that God created the universe. Within that category, some beleive that both the views of science/evolution and their belief in God are compatible

That's not what the Disco Institute and its Republican socon minions are striving to unvconstitutionally push into public school science classes; their version of creationism/ID is an explicit rejection of evolution.

829 Pickles  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:44:57am

re: #815 FrogMarch


Well said FM.

830 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:46:17am

As a Creationist who believes Evolution is God's creation, I'm thrilled by the discovery of the Ida fossil. Last night I spent some time on the Net looking at it and what the scientists said about and found it fascinating. It is a milestone in science that shouldn't be minimized. I look forward to what further research will uncover. It fills me with wonder at God's work, and it proves once again why science needs to be left alone to be science. I'm very concerned about the impact on future discoveries if we allow Creationism / I.D. to pollute science classes. Even the Catholic high school I attended back in the early 70s was adamant about keeping science class for science.

And it reminds me of Stinky's very wise words about not listening to those who proclaim belief in God or Evolution precludes belief in the other, or something to that effect.

I'm a Limbaugh fan and was disappointed by his comments about it. To call the discovery BS is, well, BS. I understand his focus on this disaster of a presidency, but sometimes you've got to pause and smell the roses, so to speak. And wonder at the marvels of nature.

This Friday I will hoist a brew to Charles Darwin for starting it all. And to all the scientists who've followed in his footsteps. God bless them all.

831 FrogMarch  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:47:39am

re: #826 Salamantis

Including the 1.6 billion Roman Catholics who accept evolution as valid, solid and sound science?

I guess I'd have to ask all 1.6 billion if they also beleive that God created the universe. re: #828 Salamantis

That's not what the Disco Institute and its Republican socon minions are striving to unvconstitutionally push into public school science classes; their version of creationism/ID is an explicit rejection of evolution.

I agree. Those are folks who are either Young Earth Creationists/ Old Earth Creationists and they fear and are offended by science.
Look, all I am saying is that Christians beleive that God created the universe. Beyond that you have sub-categories within the Creationist viewpoint.

832 Joker23  Wed, May 20, 2009 7:51:16am

I know I'm a little late to the party, and there probably won't be too many people reading all the comments now that topic has moved down a couple notches, but I have a question (or two).

When did this whole "creationism/intelligent design" thing start? When did it really gain momentum?

I was born and raised Roman Catholic. I don't know what I am now, but that's a topic for another day... I went to parochial school from K through 8, and then a Marianist high school. For an idea of the time frame, I started kindergarten in 1977. At every step of the way we were taught evolution. We were taught that the story of creation in the bible was not meant to be taken literally. Heck, we were taught that the entire Old Testament was not to be taken literally...

It seems that I've only heard of the push for teaching "creationism/ID" within the last few years. It confuses me because you would think if any schools would have pushed that view it would have been the parochial/private schools...

I'm just trying to figure out why this seems to have come up all of a sudden. Or was it always there and I just never noticed?

833 dragonladyalso  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:00:13am

I'm a Christian and believe that God created all. How he did it, I don't know but I am old enough (72) to know that a huge percentage of the "science" that I learned as a child has now been proved wrong or, at least, incomplete. Imagine what another half century or so will do to our understanding.


Note to#36: Do you know how the Chrysler dealers to be shut down were selected? I can't find it anywhere - nor can I find a single reporter who has asked the question. Quite a few towns will be left without a dealer at all (Shawnee, OK for one). Since dealers are independent businesses, costing Chrysler zero, how is it helping Chrysler to close any of them?

834 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:00:28am
835 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:01:03am
836 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:05:24am

Leading anti-evolution Christian religious denominations:

Southern Baptists (example: the late Jerry Falwell).

Assemblies of God (example: Pat Robertson).

Church of the Nazarene (example: James Dobson).

Notice a trend? They are all Protestant fundamentalist (some are charismatic, others are not).

Also, you will find that the televangelists and the megachurch pastors, from Robert Tilton to Jim Bakker to Jimmy Swaggart to Rick Warren to John Ankerberg to John Hagee to Kenneth Copeland to Creflo Dollar to Oral Roberts to Joel Osteen to Ted Haggard to James Robison to Rod Parsley to Peter Popoff to Benny Hinn (and on and on and on), are all anti-evolution creationists, and the vast majority of them are Young Earth Creationists and Biblical Literalists.

837 redstate1  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:06:23am

Only a few days ago, Rush was using sound clips of an appearance by a Republican on Hardball who was being grilled by Chris Matthews on the subject of evolution to explain what his response would be in the same situation. To summarize, he said that there is no doubt that evolution exists. That evidence is clear. What cannot be explained is creation. Evolution doesn't explain it. The big bang doesn't explain it. Science can explain how it all unfolds, but not how it all began.

From listening to Rush over many years, I would say that his problem with the presentation of a discovery like this is that many in the scientific community would like to use it as a vehicle to subtly (or not so subtly) attack religious faith. "You see, the whole thing can be explained in scientific terms. Religious faith is just a silly relic of the past."

Rush may have been inarticulate at this particular moment, and if you just dropped in, you might not realize it. A shame to dismiss him as an ignoramus based on that.

838 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:10:54am

re: #832 Joker23

I suppose it's always been there, that conflict between Creationism and Evolution, but there's been a substantial increase in the number of Creationists trying to shove this matter of faith into science classes in school over the last few years. Charles Johnson has been one of the few people pointing out the phenomenon and how unwise this is, and how instances of this are happening with increasing frequency in our country. He's taken his share of heat for it, with some people even accusing him of posting about almost nothing else. Something any regular reader of this blog knows is BS.

Shoving Creationism into science class will seriously compromise the quality of science education in our country and must be opposed. I'm glad Charles keeps the spotlight on this issue, it's important to our future.

839 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:11:04am

re: #834 pimp_conservative

Comments deleted? Will this even be posted? Its your site, Charles, but this is rather childish and insecure behaviour, but then considering your defenders on this thread, I shouldn't be surprised.

What is childish and insecure is your cavalier dismissal of vast masses of empirical science evidence as false and/or inconsequential, and your gratuitous slagging of all who disagree with you.

840 Kenneth  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:22:09am

re: #833 dragonladyalso

I'm a Christian and believe that God created all. How he did it, I don't know but I am old enough (72) to know that a huge percentage of the "science" that I learned as a child has now been proved wrong or, at least, incomplete.

That is the whole point of science. A given theory is developed, expanded and improved over time. Sometimes new discoveries lead scientists to change theories about what they had previously thought they understood. This process of intellectual evolution is the core strength of science, not as you imagine, the ultimate weakness.

..Imagine what another half century or so will do to our understanding.

That depends on who controls the curriculum in schools. If only science is taught in science class, then the frontiers of knowledge will be far greater than today. But if theological fanatics of Creationism control the curriculum, our children will know even less about science than students today do.

841 Jim D  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:22:59am

re: #838 Land Shark


Shoving Creationism into science class will seriously compromise the quality of science education in our country and must be opposed. I'm glad Charles keeps the spotlight on this issue, it's important to our future.

It is also serious violation of the first amendment. It really bothers me that so many conservatives don't have a problem with that.

842 Kenneth  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:26:47am

re: #832 Joker23

The official position of the Catholic Church is that evolution is sound science and that the Church has no argument with science. The Church upholds Creation as a theological concept, not a pseudo-scientific notion. The Church does not endorse Creationism.

Creationism and the pseudo-scientific fraud knows as Intelligent Design is largely an fundamentalist Protestant phenomenon. BTW, there is also a an Islamic version of Creationism, which Charles has posted about.

843 martinsmithy  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:27:36am

When faced with a hard scientific fact, an ideologue will counter with one of the following three responses:

1. Attack the motives of the messenger.
2. Grasp at bogus pseudo-scientific straws to counter the message.
3. Ignore the message (the "plug your ears and shout 'la la la, I can't hear you' response")

Rush Limbaugh's response seems to be primarily #3, with a dash of #2 thrown in. I guess the discoverers of this fossil should feel lucky, because he often resorts to #1 in such situations (see, e.g. his response to uncomfortable global warming facts).

844 martinsmithy  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:28:36am

And remember what Michael Steele said, before he was forced to retract it to save his political hide:

Rush Limbaugh is primarily an entertainer, and his statements should be considered in that light.

845 Land Shark  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:32:37am

re: #67 Cato the Elder

You all know me well enough to realize that I would never want to offend or upset, so I'm sure you'll take it in the right spirit when I ask - if Limbaugh can be so blindingly stupid about science and reason and the Constitution and little things like that, is it possible he might be wrong about other stuff too? Like, oh, I don't know, Barack Obama?

He may be wrong on the Ida news and other science, but he's right on the money about Obama. I've done a lot of reading up on the man, and everything I've learned about him fills me with dread for our country. And so far just about everything I see from him since he become President confirms my fears. But he is the duly elected President and will be at least until January 2013 and that's how it is.

But Rush is full of shit about this latest discovery, though.

846 Euler  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:47:12am
It’s just pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, possibly one of the greatest finds of all time, Rush Limbaugh gets on the radio and tells his millions of admirers that it’s meaningless bullshit.

Rush is expressing, and his listeners are savoring, what Twain called a Corn-pone Opinion:

"You tell me whar a man gits his corn pone, en I'll tell you what his 'pinions is."
847 karl__lembke  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:52:26am

I'd have thought that when he wrote as one of his 35 Undeniable Truths of Life "23. Evolution cannot explain creation", that would have been more than enough of a smoking gun.

He's a creationist, and has been for a long time.

848 mattb  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:06:52am

I love Rush, but he's weak on science in general.

Once when there was some issue of animal behavior in the news (don't remember what exactly) Rush said, "They behave that way because they were programmed by God!"

It's frustrating.

849 leon77  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:17:30am

Wow, Rush, what an incisive analysis..."it's all bs in my opinion!"

If he is the spokesperson/figurehead- he has shown himself to be a fool beyond repair...I don't want to be associated with that wing of the conservative movement. Scottish Enlightenment forever!

850 american sabra  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:25:12am

re: #832 Joker23

I'm always late to the threads myself.

I read a theory (maybe someone already mentioned it above), that the Religious Right started out with trying to get prayer into the classroom and that fight went on many years with no success. The idea was getting Christianity taught in school, bottom line. But that hasn't worked so now they're trying a different avenue, Creationism. It's still the same fight, getting religion in school, but focused from a different angle, the faux science of ID/Creationism. Then maybe they can slip it in if masked well enough. So that's why you see all the hoopla about Creationism and pretty much nothing on prayer on school anymore.

I never liked Rush even if he may have had some good points. I never liked shock jocks in any fashion, political or otherwise, but that's me. Rush will always be the darling of the conservative movement tho. I have a hard time believing that will change with this statement.

851 Yashmak  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:34:26am

re: #847 karl__lembke

I'd have thought that when he wrote "23. Evolution cannot explain creation", that would have been more than enough of a smoking gun.

Well, that particular quote isn't exactly a smoking gun at all, as Evolution cannot, and does not attempt to explain the origins of life. . . .it only explains what happened once life started.

852 AuntAcid  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:36:52am

"...the cutting edge of societal evolution..."?

853 Yashmak  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:38:25am

re: #833 dragonladyalso

I'm a Christian and believe that God created all. How he did it, I don't know but I am old enough (72) to know that a huge percentage of the "science" that I learned as a child has now been proved wrong or, at least, incomplete. Imagine what another half century or so will do to our understanding.

I'm sure it will provide us with amazing new scientific discoveries indeed. . .provided that the new generations of students in the science classroom today are taught science, and are thus able to further refining and improving our understanding of the world we live in. That effort will certainly suffer, however, if we corrupt science education by inserting the supernatural.

854 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:39:40am

re: #518 Abu Al-Poopypants

What I don't get about Limbaugh is how his audience is so large. Your typical conservative or Republican is supposed to be at work during those hours. The only time I hear him is during the occasional lunch-hour errand.

Most Americans are at work during those hours, regardless of political orientation, but daytime radio persists.

855 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:40:39am

Seriously, Charles, are there any conservatives with whom you agree?

856 mph  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:46:08am

re: #515 Charles

The Heritage Foundation is anti-evolution.

They certainly don't spent a lot of time on it, but these links can leave little doubt over where their sympathies lie on the matter.

[Link: www.heritage.org...]
[Link: www.heritage.org...]
[Link: www.heritage.org...]

857 mph  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:47:45am

re: #855 Icculus

Seriously, Charles, are there any conservatives with whom you agree?

Aren't the specifics of a person's beliefs more important than the semantics of a blanket description?

858 Lynn B.  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:48:14am
It’s just pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, possibly one of the greatest finds of all time, Rush Limbaugh gets on the radio and tells his millions of admirers that it’s meaningless bullshit.

Whew! The first time I read that? I thought Charles said

It’s just pathetic that on a day when such an amazing scientific discovery is announced, possibly one of the greatest minds of all time, Rush Limbaugh...

Feeling better now.

859 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:49:33am

A blanket description like, "Creationist?"

860 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:50:19am

re: #534 Pawn of the Oppressor

No matter how hard I bend my thinking to understand this attitude, I keep coming back to good old Fascism. Or more precisely, the Romantic "minority us vs. majority them" that fuels fascism throughout history. Reactionary, conspiratorial thinking eventually leads to a call for vengeance, and usually that vengeance comes back on its perpetrator ten-fold, whether they realize it or not.

The classic come-all-ye of fascism is an appeal to how unjustly oppressed the group in question is. Depending on the group in question, I suppose you really need to reeeeeeaaaaach sometimes. My question is what makes ordinary Americans vulnerable to such ideas, and how we can, dare I say, encourage them to get vaccinated.

861 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:50:42am

Rush Limbaugh is a genius, and I won't stand by and have his brilliance disparaged

862 Slymon  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:51:10am

Until the GOP drops these literal interpretations of religious origin and defer to a Kierkegaardian existential point of view, we will suffer under Mssrs. Obama, Reid, et al for a long time.

863 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:58:29am

The point is infinite regression. If it's the big bang, what put the singularity there for that to happen... What was there before that... and before that... It seems silly to argue over whether there's a creator or not, when it's impossible to prove one way or the other, and much easier to err on the safe side.

864 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:59:31am

re: #586 Slumbering Behemoth

You clearly do not know the meaning of the word "theory" in scientific context.

I used to work with a super science teacher at a small Catholic elementary school, who was determined that our kids would never fall for the 'just a theory' thing. She did so well that, over in English, I once started an explanation with 'my theory is', only to have one of the kids point out that in fact what I had was a hypothesis.

865 mph  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:00:14am

re: #862 Slymon

Until the GOP drops these literal interpretations of religious origin and defer to a Kierkegaardian existential point of view, we will suffer under Mssrs. Obama, Reid, et al for a long time.

This Gallup poll is strong evidence that you are correct:
[Link: www.gallup.com...]

The decline in Republican Party affiliation among Americans in recent years is well documented, but a Gallup analysis now shows that this movement away from the GOP has occurred among nearly every major demographic subgroup. Since the first year of George W. Bush's presidency in 2001, the Republican Party has maintained its support only among frequent churchgoers, with conservatives and senior citizens showing minimal decline.
866 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:02:23am

re: #615 SteveRogers

The next questions about Rush Limbaugh are
(at least to me):
Is he a young-earth creationist or an old-earth creationist?
Does he want to force students to learn his religious beliefs in the public schools?

Okay, actually the second question is my main concern. From what I have read there is no indication he wants to do that, but who knows?

So far he hasn't, that I know of, suggested that schools should teach whatever it is he likes. I really hope that he keeps away on that, because he does seem to still have a lot of grassroots support from the show and appearances and such.

867 bobbuck  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:03:25am

re: #841 Jim D

It is also serious violation of the first amendment. It really bothers me that so many conservatives don't have a problem with that.

You're right but teaching Creationists that their religion is wrong is also unconstitutional. The First Amendment doesn't qualify religious freedom on the correctness or provability of the religion. The whole thing is radioactive and must be avoided in a public school. If public schools do weigh in on the subject it's not likely to go the direction this group wants because even in the Democrat party only 17% believe in evolution in which "God had no part" (Gallup)

868 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:04:31am

re: #855 Icculus

Seriously, Charles, are there any conservatives with whom you agree?

I do not consider people who want to abuse the machinery of the state to indoctrinate everybody's kids in a subgroup's pet religious dogmas in public high school science class to be conservative, any more than I consider people who want to intrude the government into intimately private personal and family decisions to be conservative. It has to do with conservatives' alleged committment to minimalist government and individual rights and freedoms.

But I'm sure Charles agrees with practically all conservatives on some issues; he just doesn't agree with the Limburger Loaf on this one. However, I'm reasonably certain that he largely shares Charles Krauthammer's opinion on it.

869 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:09:00am

re: #625 freedomplow


What kind of person would tear everything they have ever known from their heart?

Give them a little time. Let them adjust.

The problem I see is

a. No one is asking anyone to tear anything from their heart. People get through tragedies with their faith intact,

b. If I have lost the thread of thought I apologize, but if we're talking about people who don't want to accept the idea of evolution, they've had several generations. And the people pulling this now are no longer the uneducated faithful from Inherit The Wind. A man or woman with a grade-school education and no exposure to the outside world defending faith against outside forces is an understandable, even an admirable figure. But we're talking now about people with education, influence, power, and they're using it to promote ignorance and sow hatred.

870 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:11:19am

re: #639 pimp_conservative

I care that this focus on evolution and intelligent design, themselves meaningless in the grand scheme of things, is detracting from the fight against the greater problems we face.

If we have a bigger problem than people warping faith to promote ignorance among the American people, I would really like to hear about it. Are there alligators in the NYC sewers again? A meteor coming from outer space?

871 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:19:04am
872 Erik The Red  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:22:09am

re: #861 Icculus

Rush Limbaugh is a genius, and I won't stand by and have his brilliance disparaged

Than fuck off and go and play in another sand box. This is not your house

873 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:23:59am

Here's the problem, SanFran:

You can prove that there aren't alligators in the NYC sewers, and at least be pretty sure we're not about to be hit by a meteor... Proving that the universe wasn't created by the Lord our God is a little trickier.

874 Lynn B.  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:24:00am

re: #867 bobbuck

You're right but teaching Creationists that their religion is wrong is also unconstitutional. The First Amendment doesn't qualify religious freedom on the correctness or provability of the religion. The whole thing is radioactive and must be avoided in a public school. If public schools do weigh in on the subject it's not likely to go the direction this group wants because even in the Democrat party only 17% believe in evolution in which "God had no part" (Gallup)

So you're proposing that evolution shouldn't be taught in public schools because:

a) it teaches Creationists that their religion is wrong and therefore violates the First Amendment

b) most people don't believe in "evolution in which 'God had no part' (straw man)

c) both of the above?

Fail. Try again.

875 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:28:59am

re: #821 Leatherhelmet

[Link: scienceblogs.com...]

I see PZ Myers says the fossil is important but overhyped. Guess that makes him a creationist too.

That's a really dumb comment. First of all, you've completely mischaracterized PZ Myers' post -- the word "overhyped" is yours, not his. He clearly thinks it's a very important discovery -- and here's the larger point he makes, with which I totally agree:

Go ahead and be excited by this find, I know I am. Just remember to be excited tomorrow and the day after and the day after that, because this is perfectly normal science, and it will go on.

And this...

Now suddenly, he is labeled a creationist because he thinks the fossil is being sold as something it is not -- "THE" missing link. There are alot of scientists this morning who will find themselves suddenly creationists because they are skeptical of this find.

... is a completely irrational, exaggerated overreaction. Reviewing your past comments shows that you're a creationist yourself, so it's not surprising that you would use this kind of reverse smear tactic.

876 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:30:02am

re: #785 bobbuck

If you're curious about Evolution/ID/Creationism breakdowns by party [Gallup]:
[Link: www.gallup.com...]

You might find this other link interesting:
Many High School Biology Teachers Still Teach Creationism [Wired]:
[Link: www.wired.com...]

Not evolution related but kinda scary [WRPI]:
Aspiring school teachers fail in math
[Link: www.wpri.com...]

Ah, math. You have to take the CBEST, which covers basic reading, math and writing skills, to start a teaching credential program. The fact that they make you do this after you have a BA is a little scary, but OK.

I was worried about the math. I'd heard that a lot of people fail it, and my math skills have never been hot. I met people in line who'd failed the math part three times. I felt doomed.

About halfway through the math section, it occurred to me that I was going to pass this, and more, that the average seventh grader could pass this.

I worry.

877 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:31:10am

re: #874 Lynn B.

So you're proposing that evolution shouldn't be taught in public schools because:

a) it teaches Creationists that their religion is wrong and therefore violates the First Amendment

b) most people don't believe in "evolution in which 'God had no part' (straw man)

c) both of the above?

Fail. Try again.

That's exactly what he's trying to push, and it isn't the first time either.

878 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:32:35am

re: #142 ggt

It doesn't help that radical athiests with PhD's are pushing atheism. I listened to a book talk by Richard Dawkins and was truly offended. He had absolutely no respect for the belief system of others. I can see how those truly religious and uneducated-in-basic-science people out there would flock to Creationism after hearing him.

I think he is hurting science.

To those who downdinged this comment: GAZE.

I haven't read Dawkins the way I've read Dennett, Hitchens, and various Harrises but I have seen Dawkins quoted and on youtube; and I can testify that he is, indeed, a troll.

Dawkins is not here to debate people of whatever faith. He is here to provoke them; to get them mad enough to retort back with something silly, stupid and/or incoherent. The best I can say for the Dawkins style is that his trolling is erudite, eloquent, and entertaining; and that he picks the right set of enemies. But when I want an actual argument I go to Sam Harris or Daniel Dennett.

I might not phrase it such that Dawkins actively "hurts science" (Stephen Jay Gould, by contrast, hurt science - c.f. The Mismeasure of Man) but Dennett certainly does a rotten job of evangelising science among believers who are skeptical of "intelligent design" etc, of whom Catholics seem to be the most popular example here.

So to ggt's dinger berries, whom I haven't bothered to click the "-6" to find out who they are, go ahead and downding this post too. [rest of my thoughts self-censored]

879 American Sabra  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:34:14am

re: #863 Icculus

Who cares. Doesn't matter. Not the argument. Religion shouldn't be taught in public school. Period. End of story. I could give a rat's behind if you believe in the flying spagetti monster.

880 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:36:03am

re: #863 Icculus

The point is infinite regression. If it's the big bang, what put the singularity there for that to happen... What was there before that... and before that... It seems silly to argue over whether there's a creator or not, when it's impossible to prove one way or the other, and much easier to err on the safe side.

Blaise Pascal in da HIZZ OUSE!

Anyone up for a wager?

881 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:36:41am

re: #863 Icculus

The point is infinite regression. If it's the big bang, what put the singularity there for that to happen... What was there before that... and before that... It seems silly to argue over whether there's a creator or not, when it's impossible to prove one way or the other, and much easier to err on the safe side.

If the universe was created by a creator deity, then who created THAT creator deity, and who created HIS creator, and so on and on ad nauseum ad infinitum. Yep; we're talking Creator Turtles all the way down a bottomless infinite regression pit.

If you insist upon exempting the deity from explanation (even though a deity wise and powerful enough to intentionally create a universe would have to be more complex than that universe, hence require more explanation than it), I would counter that, since the addition of a nonexplanatory creator adds nothing but an explanatarily superfluous and unnecessary entity to the situation, why not just stop with the universe and say that IT needs no explanation? That's where William of Occam's Razor would naturally slice.

And if by 'erring on the safe side' you are referring to some version of Pascal's Wager, there's a flip side to that bet.

If you take this one and only life of which you are certain and, rather than devoting it to living as you choose to live it (and that could be quite an ethical way - just ask Buddhists, Taoists, atheists and Confucians) you just spend it in thrall it like a grifter placing a chip on a cosmic celestial roulette wheel angling to hit the jackpot for a plum position in Paradise, and there is no afterlife, then you've wasted your one and only chance for the sake of nothing.

On the other hand, if you allow your own rationality and reason rather than one or another ancient scripture among many to dictate your life path course, and there does happen to be a deity-ruled afterlife, any deity who would punish you for living according to the dictates of your intellect and conscience would have to be a vindictive, irrational, and evil deity indeed, and its absence would be preferable to its presence, so its punishment would be for you, a reward. And if there is indeed no afterlife, then at least you spent your one and only certain life as you saw fit.

I always considered it to be less virtuous anyway to do good and avoid evil because one believed in and feared a smiling bully with a pie in one hand and a club in the other threatening and cajoling one to do so, than it would be if one does good and avoids evil simply because it's the right (as opposed to the wrong) thing to do.

882 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:37:52am

re: #867 bobbuck

You're right but teaching Creationists that their religion is wrong is also unconstitutional. The First Amendment doesn't qualify religious freedom on the correctness or provability of the religion. The whole thing is radioactive and must be avoided in a public school. If public schools do weigh in on the subject it's not likely to go the direction this group wants because even in the Democrat party only 17% believe in evolution in which "God had no part" (Gallup)

I don't know where people are getting this idea from, but the First Amendment does not prevent schools from teaching science.

883 Annar  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:38:54am

re: #836 Salamantis

This great collection of fakirs should merit a contest to find the all time champion. The criteria should include money raising for an impoverished Jesus, most healings done before a national audience as well as the number of encounters with national politicians.

884 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:39:14am

re: #861 Icculus

Rush Limbaugh is a genius, and I won't stand by and have his brilliance disparaged

His mother was a hamster and his father smelt of elderberry

885 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:42:40am

re: #867 bobbuck

You're right but teaching Creationists that their religion is wrong is also unconstitutional. The First Amendment doesn't qualify religious freedom on the correctness or provability of the religion. The whole thing is radioactive and must be avoided in a public school. If public schools do weigh in on the subject it's not likely to go the direction this group wants because even in the Democrat party only 17% believe in evolution in which "God had no part" (Gallup)

Creationism isn't in or of itself a religion (there are many different creation stories in many different religions), and empirical science is not subject to a popularity contest voted upon by the pubilc at large (it ain't American Idol). People don't get to insist upon either lies or nothing because truths offend them.

886 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:43:34am

re: #882 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know where people are getting this idea from, but the First Amendment does not prevent schools from teaching science.

It's just the latest in a long line of irrational creationist arguments.

887 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:44:53am

re: #518 Abu Al-Poopypants

Hmm. Maybe I'm slow tonight but I took 499 to be agreeing with 493 about the the Large Man Who Rattles Papers* and his dittoheads and it got flushed. What I don't get about Limbaugh is how his audience is so large. Your typical conservative or Republican is supposed to be at work during those hours. The only time I hear him is during the occasional lunch-hour errand.

I've been in mail rooms and server rooms, and where there was down-time between errands, we often had talk radio as background chatter. I've heard talk radio in mechanic shops too, I guess because when you're an experienced mechanic, a lot of the stuff you do is automatic and your brain doesn't get used 100%.

I'd class these as mid-level, technical occupations which would attract a middle-class set of skilled workers. Mencius Moldbug used to call them "vaisyas" after the old Hindu merchant caste.

888 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:45:33am

re: #885 Salamantis

Creationism isn't in or of itself a religion (there are many different creation stories in many different religions), and empirical science is not subject to a popularity contest voted upon by the pubilc at large (it ain't American Idol). People don't get to insist upon either lies or nothing because truths offend them.

Why else would I have this outrageous accent?!

889 Icculus  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:49:01am

re: #887 Zimriel

I've been in mail rooms and server rooms, and where there was down-time between errands, we often had talk radio as background chatter. I've heard talk radio in mechanic shops too, I guess because when you're an experienced mechanic, a lot of the stuff you do is automatic and your brain doesn't get used 100%.

I'd class these as mid-level, technical occupations which would attract a middle-class set of skilled workers. Mencius Moldbug used to call them "vaisyas" after the old Hindu merchant caste.

As a white collar office type worker, I can assure you that becoming a member of the Rush 24/7 website lets me listen as much as I'd like, although the Evony running in the background causes really annoying audio hiccups...

890 JamesW  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:52:04am

I've been thinking about his opening off and on since I have heard it. Yes, it is disappointing, but, IMO, there is less there than meets the eye. He is cynical about pronouncements of great scientific discoveries that often are baloney (I am looking at you, lancet) or used for political purposes. This is nothing more than a reflexive scoff at an institution that has to some degree earned a jaundiced eye..

891 Zimriel  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:57:31am

re: #837 redstate1

From listening to Rush over many years, I would say that his problem with the presentation of a discovery like this is that many in the scientific community would like to use it as a vehicle to subtly (or not so subtly) attack religious faith. "You see, the whole thing can be explained in scientific terms. Religious faith is just a silly relic of the past."

Rush may have been inarticulate at this particular moment, and if you just dropped in, you might not realize it. A shame to dismiss him as an ignoramus based on that.

Sorry man, but that dog won't hunt (or, if you like, that monkey won't peel a banana). There's also a link to Rush talking up Ben Stein's "Expelled". Several links, actually; here's one.

Rush is ignorant, and more importantly he acts on his ignorance.

892 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:06:55am

Of course this is appalling.

That said, my only question is whether or not Rush actually believes this BS or if he is simply following the obvious GOP trend towards far right religious politics. Honestly, he may well be that ignorant. More likely, he is just a whore.

My only question to the GOP is not about the missing link between our economy and our prosperity, if I were to ask about that, I would ask about the GOPs own repudiation of fiscal conservatism. My question is when did the average Republican become so stupid that they have left their party to the hands of whores, blowhards and morons? When did the average Republican stop being a Republican and when did they get so stupid that they missed the transition?

893 hazzyday  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:16:05am

I've only listened to Rush twice. EX-gf is a daily listener. His voice seemed pretty high pitched to me and bombastic. I suppose that can grow on someone. But for me it's a reason not to tune in. I interpret his wording here as being overly intellectual but with a poor knowledge of theories and evolution. Does Rush even know what a scientific theory is? He is not giving any hints that he does. Does he ever talk to scientists?

There are lots and lots of smart people who value getting a logical lock on a small part of an argument no one has considered before. It gives them pleasure to debate it. Yet being human and not wanting to be wrong they paint themselves into that corner before they will disregard their original intent. The Rush listening GF called this a lack of common sense.

Rush here though seems to be pandering to an audience he has little respect for. He derives an evolutionary argument based on his own misuse of terminology. I guess that is the definitive use of a strawman. Why does he do it if he is a smart man?

1. Just to be humorous for his audience who he regards as equal laughers.
2. To be snide and deceive his audience and mislead them.

The responsibility of great intelligence is too teach and lead. It's not to fool and mislead. In the down and dirty of politics a great intelligence will have to sling some mud to protect cherished principles and at other times eat dirt. In science one doesn't have to go that far though i hear competition for grants is tough.

894 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #873 Icculus

Here's the problem, SanFran:

You can prove that there aren't alligators in the NYC sewers, and at least be pretty sure we're not about to be hit by a meteor... Proving that the universe wasn't created by the Lord our God is a little trickier.

No one is trying to prove any such thing.

895 ihateronpaul  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:36:14am

I see some people haven't realized that Rush doesn't actually espouse a conservative philosphy. He simply opposes EVERYTHING the democrats do. In this case obviously he is opposing the fact that those damn liberals don't fall for creationism.

896 Big Boots that's BOOTS  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:40:31am

funny seeing those google ads in the side bar promoting creation over evolution.

897 Randall Gross  Wed, May 20, 2009 11:58:30am

re: #896 Big Boots that's BOOTS

funny seeing those google ads in the side bar promoting creation over evolution.

Google works on keywords, if you go out to the advertised sites you'll see some really looney toons stuff if you dig a bit.

898 Teh Flowah  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:04:09pm

re: #871 taxfreekiller

So, humans will give up liberty, the American Constitution, all their property, burden their children, their grandchildren with huge debt,
live under commie Democrat one party rule in tyranny, and allow the likes of Nancy Pelosi, Barney Frank and B. Obama to rule over them,, all because of the religion in the Republican party.

not common sense to me

just saying, freedom means a lot.


I have to accept the stupidest aspects of humanity present in the Republican party just because I don't like the Democratic party. That makes sense to me.

899 Sabba Hillel  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:16:11pm

re: #881 Salamantis

If the universe was created by a creator deity, then who created THAT creator deity, and who created HIS creator, and so on and on ad nauseum ad infinitum. Yep; we're talking Creator Turtles all the way down a bottomless infinite regression pit.

The definition of deity would be the Prime Cause any other beings of whatever power would have to be creations and subordinate. That is why monotheism is so much more logical than the pantheistic idea of multiple powers fighting it out for supremacy. The idea of a Creator is that since the Creator is the Prime Cause and exists outside the universe that we are in, then He/She/It (the English language does not have a proper pronoun) cannot be limited by the "laws" of this universe. The universe initial start argument does not match the deity creation argument. The universe, as an artifact of time, must obey all the laws and therefore needs a starting point. If the definition of "deity" implies nothing more than a super-powerful magician which requires a "creator" then it is nothing more than another artifact of the universe just like in the mythology of primitive people or in a fantasy novel.


I always considered it to be less virtuous anyway to do good and avoid evil because one believed in and feared a smiling bully with a pie in one hand and a club in the other threatening and cajoling one to do so, than it would be if one does good and avoids evil simply because it's the right (as opposed to the wrong) thing to do.

This is also a straw man. While the goal would be to conform to the will of the deity for the right motives, there are people who have not yet developed sufficiently to be able to do so. These people need a system of reward and punishment as a teaching tool to learn to follow the right path. Consider the difference between an infant, a toddler, a tenager, and an adult. Bringing up modern politics, consider the spoiled selfish actions of ...

In any case, we need an outside source to define "right" and "wrong" because people defining those terms on their own can lead to Pol Pot's Cambodia or the terrorists' Islam rather than the examples of good people that you gave. Remember, Pol Pot claimed to be doing "good" and that his actions were "necessary". Andrei Sakharov is an example of a "good atheist" but was unable to teach his children to follow in his path.

In any case, this has nothing to do with the argument over evolution in which both sides misunderstand what is going on and attempt to redefine both evolution and creation to mean what would support their personal agendas.

Creation could have taken place 5 seconds ago with this post already on your computer screen and we would have no way of proving differently. All that we can say is that according to the rules as we understand them the univers appears to be a certain age. An example would be that Adam saw the stars even though light could not yet have reached the earth from even the nearest star if it had started from the star at the moment of creation. If he had cut down a tree as soon as he woke up, he would have been able to count the rings in the trunk. A mushroom was created living on a dead tree.

900 Lynn B.  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:26:12pm

re: #878 Zimriel

To those who downdinged this comment: GAZE.

I haven't read Dawkins the way I've read Dennett, Hitchens, and various Harrises but I have seen Dawkins quoted and on youtube; and I can testify that he is, indeed, a troll.

Dawkins is not here to debate people of whatever faith. He is here to provoke them; to get them mad enough to retort back with something silly, stupid and/or incoherent. The best I can say for the Dawkins style is that his trolling is erudite, eloquent, and entertaining; and that he picks the right set of enemies. But when I want an actual argument I go to Sam Harris or Daniel Dennett.

I might not phrase it such that Dawkins actively "hurts science" (Stephen Jay Gould, by contrast, hurt science - c.f. The Mismeasure of Man) but Dennett certainly does a rotten job of evangelising science among believers who are skeptical of "intelligent design" etc, of whom Catholics seem to be the most popular example here.

So to ggt's dinger berries, whom I haven't bothered to click the "-6" to find out who they are, go ahead and downding this post too. [rest of my thoughts self-censored]

Well, our host, for one (me for another). But feel free to put Charles on GAZE, if you wish. Your loss.

/surprised at you for this one.

901 Yashmak  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:32:07pm

re: #855 Icculus

Seriously, Charles, are there any conservatives with whom you agree?

Yes, most of us here. He only disagrees with those who would supplant science education with religious dogma, or who would ally with facists simply because one of the groups they hate are muslims.

902 Yashmak  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:36:07pm

re: #873 Icculus

Here's the problem, SanFran:

You can prove that there aren't alligators in the NYC sewers, and at least be pretty sure we're not about to be hit by a meteor... Proving that the universe wasn't created by the Lord our God is a little trickier.

Which is pretty much why I.D. can never be considered science, and has no place in the science classroom.

903 moonflower  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:39:05pm

re: #891 Zimriel

Sorry man, but that dog won't hunt (or, if you like, that monkey won't peel a banana). There's also a link to Rush talking up Ben Stein's "Expelled". Several links, actually; here's one.

Rush is ignorant, and more importantly he acts on his ignorance.

If you read that whole excerpt, at the end Rush advocates combining evolution and I/D - that God created life initially, but evolution brought us where we are today. That we are given the gifts of yearning for liberty and freedom by our creator (like in the Declaration of Independence). I think the point is making is that some people want to totally discount God entirely.

I really don't see much wrong with that point of view. Read the whole excerpt.

904 Yashmak  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:43:16pm

re: #890 JamesW

This is nothing more than a reflexive scoff at an institution that has to some degree earned a jaundiced eye..

How has it earned a 'jaundiced eye'? Limbaugh must be aware of the years this find was studied before the researchers went public with it.

905 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:46:40pm

re: #903 moonflower

If you read that whole excerpt, at the end Rush advocates combining evolution and I/D - that God created life initially, but evolution brought us where we are today. That we are given the gifts of yearning for liberty and freedom by our creator (like in the Declaration of Independence). I think the point is making is that some people want to totally discount God entirely.

I really don't see much wrong with that point of view. Read the whole excerpt.

There is a huge amount wrong with that point of view. "Intelligent design" creationism is not science, and there is simply no way to "combine" it with evolution. Science is about finding natural explanations for natural phenomena -- and you don't advance science by saying, "At this point, God stepped in and performed a miracle." What do you do with that kind of viewpoint? How does it contribute to scientific knowledge?

It doesn't work like that, and it never will.

Religion and science are two separate domains, and "combining" them is nothing more than an attempt to subvert science.

906 Annar  Wed, May 20, 2009 12:58:42pm

re: #899 Sabba Hillel

The definition of deity would be the Prime Cause any other beings of whatever power would have to be creations and subordinate. That is why monotheism is so much more logical than the pantheistic idea of multiple powers fighting it out for supremacy.

This is nonsense. One does not create things by simply defining them into existence.

Pantheism has nothing to do with multiple deities. See link.

907 karl__lembke  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:00:29pm

re: #851 Yashmak

Well, that particular quote isn't exactly a smoking gun at all, as Evolution cannot, and does not attempt to explain the origins of life. . . .it only explains what happened once life started.

In the narrow sense of explaining how living things have changed over time, that's true. In the broader sense of life having arisen and developed the way it has in accord with natural law, no miracles needed....
....no.

If I had ever seen or heard Limbaugh making a careful distinction between evolution and abiogenesis, I'd buy your explanation. But he hasn't, and I don't.

908 Annar  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:07:59pm

re: #905 Charles

"At this point, God stepped in and performed a miracle." What do you do with that kind of viewpoint? How does it contribute to scientific knowledge?

It doesn't work like that, and it never will.

Religion and science are two separate domains, and "combining" them is nothing more than an attempt to subvert science.


Even Ken Miller falls into that trap but he, at least, does not step on evolution but puts the miracle in the abiogenesis part. Some of the latest discoveries are kicking that miraculous can too further down the road.

909 NukeAtomrod  Wed, May 20, 2009 1:46:00pm

re: #861 Icculus

Rush Limbaugh is a genius, and I won't stand by and have his brilliance disparaged

So, is he infallible like the Pope? Will you defend him even when you know he's wrong? Is his knowledge and wisdom so great that you need not question his statements? Or even think for yourself? I fear that you may be guilty of expert worship.

910 rumcrook  Wed, May 20, 2009 2:38:30pm
re: #823 rumcrook

OK. You are focusing on Young Earth Creationism. I am focusing on the basic fact that Christians beleive in God. And that, in general, Christians beleive that God created the universe.

uh oh you found us out runnnn my hidden christian bretheren he's figured out the secret! run! run away! he'll be on to the secret handshake next!

911 n2stox  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:19:07pm

Before God we are all equally wise - and equally foolish.

-Albert Einstein

I'm still banking on the aliens.

912 Salamantis  Wed, May 20, 2009 3:49:44pm

re: #899 Sabba Hillel

The definition of deity would be the Prime Cause any other beings of whatever power would have to be creations and subordinate. That is why monotheism is so much more logical than the pantheistic idea of multiple powers fighting it out for supremacy. The idea of a Creator is that since the Creator is the Prime Cause and exists outside the universe that we are in, then He/She/It (the English language does not have a proper pronoun) cannot be limited by the "laws" of this universe. The universe initial start argument does not match the deity creation argument. The universe, as an artifact of time, must obey all the laws and therefore needs a starting point. If the definition of "deity" implies nothing more than a super-powerful magician which requires a "creator" then it is nothing more than another artifact of the universe just like in the mythology of primitive people or in a fantasy novel.

Annar at #906 pinned and transfixed your pseudoarguments like a lepidopterist pins an insect to a display. You also failed to quote my objections to the tendency to exempt any creator deity from any need for explanation, while claiming that such an unexplained deity somehow explains the universe (which it does not), and that for some unexplained reason the universe, but not the creator deity, requires such an explanation. All of this rhetorical sophistry is merely an attempt to obfuscate a basic self-contradiction, and to invoke the Dostoyevskeyian categories of magic, mystery and authority.

This is also a straw man. While the goal would be to conform to the will of the deity for the right motives, there are people who have not yet developed sufficiently to be able to do so. These people need a system of reward and punishment as a teaching tool to learn to follow the right path. Consider the difference between an infant, a toddler, a tenager, and an adult. Bringing up modern politics, consider the spoiled selfish actions of ...

Religions obtain their ethical precepts from the societies and cultures in which they arise and emerge, or from prior religions who obtained them from prior societies and cultures. Religion doesn't GIVE these moral principles to the people; it GETS them from them.

In any case, we need an outside source to define "right" and "wrong" because people defining those terms on their own can lead to Pol Pot's Cambodia or the terrorists' Islam rather than the examples of good people that you gave. Remember, Pol Pot claimed to be doing "good" and that his actions were "necessary". Andrei Sakharov is an example of a "good atheist" but was unable to teach his children to follow in his path.

And more people throughout history have been killed for the sake of and/or in the name of one god or another than for any other reason. Hitler claimed that he was doing God's work. And Islam is a monotheistic faith - which proves my point.

Creation could have taken place 5 seconds ago with this post already on your computer screen and we would have no way of proving differently. All that we can say is that according to the rules as we understand them the univers appears to be a certain age. An example would be that Adam saw the stars even though light could not yet have reached the earth from even the nearest star if it had started from the star at the moment of creation. If he had cut down a tree as soon as he woke up, he would have been able to count the rings in the trunk. A mushroom was created living on a dead tree.

Yeah, right, sure...all it requires is a lying and malevolent God who planted fabricated evidence throughout genes, soil and cosmos in order to foster the kind of doubt in our minds that would increase our chances of rejecting Theism and heading to Hell. Who the fuck would wanna worship a disgusting being like that?

913 nyc redneck  Wed, May 20, 2009 4:57:25pm

i was on the road monday, when i heard rush address this issue. i was very disappointed to hear what he said. especially so, because a wk or so ago, before this, i heard rush say in regard to chris 'vulgar tingle mathews ' grilling mike pence abt. whether he was a creationist or believed in evolution, that the answer to this question is 'sure we believe in evolution but the answer to how the ball started rolling won't be answered in our lifetimes. '
rush seemed to be saying what many scientists say, 'yes you can believe in evolution but still believe in god."
i was fine w/ that.
now rush seems to be taking a creationist point of view.
ok, fine. i disagree w/ him. he is, after all, right 98.2 % of the time, as he says.
so this is one thing where we differ. this is not a penitentiary offense for me.
i won't throw him under the bus for this statement.
if rush starts lauding o for his socialist policies, agreeing w/ o on bad mouthing and demeaning america every where he goes, and gets a tingle on his leg because o is such a great speaker, well. . .
then i'm done.
rush, right now, is too great for me to assail, on that statement alone.

914 Kulhwch  Wed, May 20, 2009 8:08:17pm

re: #906 Annar

This is nonsense. One does not create things by simply defining them into existence.

Pantheism has nothing to do with multiple deities. See link.

Not entirely true, it depends on the religion discussed.  From your very source (just a little further down the page):

It is generally asserted that Hindu religious texts are the oldest known literature that contains Pantheistic ideas ... This concept of God is of one unity, with the individual personal gods being aspects of the One; thus, different deities are seen by different adherents as particularly well suited to their worship. As the sun has rays of light which emanate from the same source, the same holds true for the multifaceted aspects of God emanating from Brahman, like many colors of the same prism.Also Hindus worship Nature by offering prayers to sacred trees, groves and also to animals. It's believed widely among the hindus that God lives in all, a very pantheistic belief. Vedanta, specifically, Advaita, is a branch of Hindu philosophy which gives this matter a greater focus. Most Vedantic adherents are monists or "non-dualists" (i.e. Advaita Vedanta), seeing multiple manifestations of the one God or source of being, a view which is often considered by non-Hindus as being polytheistic.

As well from the Oxford English Dictionary, the most comprehensive English dictionary in my (and many other's) opinion:

Definitions of pantheism.
1. Oxford English Dictionary

Pantheism.
1. The religious belief or philosophical theory that God and the Universe are identical (implying a denial of the personality and transcendence of God); the doctrine that God is everything and everything is God.
[First use 1730, modelled on the word pantheist, first used by John Toland in 1705]
2. The heathen worship of all the gods.
[First use 1837 by Sir F. Palgrave, describing the Tartar tribes who respected all creeds but were attached to none]

So the statement "Pantheism has nothing to do with multiple deities" is not correct, only being true when viewed from a monotheistic viewpoint alone.  Other non-monotheistic viewpoints can see it as perfectly valid in conjunction with multiple Deities.

}:)     [I think things are more clear when discussing the Godhead, etc.]

915 [deleted]  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:13:35pm
916 karl__lembke  Wed, May 20, 2009 9:31:53pm

re: #909 NukeAtomrod

So, is he infallible like the Pope? Will you defend him even when you know he's wrong? Is his knowledge and wisdom so great that you need not question his statements? Or even think for yourself? I fear that you may be guilty of expert worship.

The Pope has to invoke infallibility. Limbaugh gets it bestowed upon him by default.

917 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 20, 2009 10:27:50pm

re: #915 guysmiley

Another sock puppet who just couldn't stay away. Bye now! Take care.

918 Annar  Thu, May 21, 2009 3:45:03am

re: #914 Kulhwch

So the statement "Pantheism has nothing to do with multiple deities" is not correct, only being true when viewed from a monotheistic viewpoint alone.  Other non-monotheistic viewpoints can see it as perfectly valid in conjunction with multiple Deities.

}:)     [I think things are more clear when discussing the Godhead, etc.]

I guess you're technically right. I was under the impression that modern usage referred to pantheism as the nature is isomorphic to god concept often used when referring to Spinoza's god.

919 [deleted]  Thu, May 21, 2009 4:52:13am
920 reine.de.tout  Thu, May 21, 2009 6:07:54am

re: #919 scooterzz

OK.
. . .
The next time I see a post about creationists - or Vlaams Belang, for that matter - I'm outta here forever.

Sheesh.

Why wait? Just go now. It's not as if you've actually ever contributed much of anything:

Scooterzz
Registered since: Jun 25, 2007 at 8:03 am
No. of comments posted: 9
No. of links posted: 0
921 Erik The Red  Thu, May 21, 2009 6:23:03am

re: #919 scooterzz

9 posts in two years and you have the balls to bitch about what your host posts about. Don't log in if you no longer like it here. On second thought don't bother. You will be gone when Charles wakes up. Hope you enjoyed shitting on Charles carpet.

922 Salamantis  Thu, May 21, 2009 7:19:50am

re: #919 scooterzz

Good riddance to bad rubbish. People like you we don't need. Only euroneonazis and theocratic biblical literalists, and these two groups are not necessarily mutually exclusive, need your kind.

923 Achilles Tang  Thu, May 21, 2009 5:05:55pm

re: #903 moonflower

If you read that whole excerpt, at the end Rush advocates combining evolution and I/D - that God created life initially, but evolution brought us where we are today. That we are given the gifts of yearning for liberty and freedom by our creator (like in the Declaration of Independence). I think the point is making is that some people want to totally discount God entirely.

I really don't see much wrong with that point of view. Read the whole excerpt.

Rubbish. Evolution and ID are incompatible, but there are plenty of more intelligent believers in God here than you. Why don't you ask for their opinion?


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