Spencer Changes Story, But Still Defends Pro Koln - Update: Pro Koln Organizers Say Spencer and Geller Confirmed in Writing

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Robert Spencer says he won’t attend the Pro Koln conference of Eurofascists, after waffling on it and smearing me for days with insults and ad hominem attacks. (Attacks that continue today.)

Meanwhile, at the website of Pro Koln, they still say Spencer is going to be the main speaker.

This website is run by the people who Spencer continues to defend at his website, denying their well-known connections to neo-Nazi groups and individuals. If they’re such wonderful people, and their ties to neo-Nazis are all lies, what’s the problem? Why wouldn’t Spencer talk at their little hatefest?

Who’s lying? Not me; all I’ve ever written is that conference organizers announced Spencer had confirmed his attendance. And they still do. Since Spencer is obviously in touch with Manfred Rouhs, maybe he should get them to clarify the issue on their website. Until then, I simply note that Spencer says he won’t attend the conference, while continuing to snap at me like a rabid chihuahua.

UPDATE at 4/26/09 9:37:37 am:

In his latest tirade against me, Robert Spencer threatens to attack me physically:

(Buckley’s sage advice to Gore Vidal comes to mind at this point.)

Spencer is referring to this:

After Buckley responded to Vidal’s argument by stating that Vidal’s position was “so naive” and saying of the protesters “some people were pro-Nazi”, Vidal called Buckley a “Crypto-Nazi”, to which Buckley replied, “Now listen, you queer, stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I will sock you in your goddamn face, and you will stay plastered.”

UPDATE at 4/26/09 10:01:46 am:

Here’s the latest update at the Pro Koln conference website (translation by Cato the Elder):

The unbelievably malicious campaign in the USA, despite obvious forgeries (see above), has unfortunately not missed its mark: The two American Islam critics Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are currently under massive pressure and have therefore regretfully retracted their written agreements [to attend the conference] - but at least they continue to actively defend pro Köln and the Anti-Islamization Congress.

So according to the fascist organizers, both Robert Spencer and Pamela Geller agreed in writing to speak at the conference.

This follows days of obfuscation and personal attacks by both of these people, trying to hide the fact that they did confirm their attendance at the Pro Koln hatefest. They only canceled after it became very clear that their associations with Eurofascists would not go unnoticed.

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286 comments
1 Shug  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:59:13am

Now is dewinter of his discontent

2 Shug  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:00:52am

If he sues you, get a legal defense fund. Lizards will kick in the coin

Discovery is a bitch Robert

3 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:01:02am

Facts are pesky things.

4 karmic_inquisitor  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:02:03am

a rabid chihuahua who should be quarantined.

5 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:02:35am

Rabid chihuahua! Heh.

6 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:03:24am

Hahaha! Bill Cosby on ESPN with some kid waiting to be drafted.

7 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:05:23am

BBL. Myabe some specer defender will show up. I'm feeling pugnacious this morning.

8 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:05:36am

Robert Spencer, on April 24:

In reality, I would never be associated with any actual racists or neo-Nazis, but Johnson in his reckless efforts to destroy those whom he has decided are his enemies has made so many false allegations that it is difficult to sort out the truth. In this case, I have not confirmed that I will be attending, and am looking into the group and the people involved,

April 26:
Spencer says he's not going to the conference.
I wonder what he found out?

9 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:06:22am

"while continuing to snap at me like a rabid chihuahua" is being added to my list of descriptors. No, I can't use it, but I like it anyway. I'll think of something similar.

10 ashan  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:07:42am

I respect Spencer's scholarship on the Koran, but his duplicity in dealing with these shady associations are going to sink his boat. He's got a whole lot of clarifying to do.

11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:08:29am

Charles, please know that if he speaks there, I will publicly apologize to you and the entire LGF community.

I have only tried to get this shouting match dialed down because I could not believe Spencer would go to such a meeting in the belief that the pro-democracy antiJihadi movement should be unified. If Spencer places himself in the non-democracy camp, he is beyond the pale and I shall have much egg on my face.

I am confident you understand that I have tried to act in good faith in this matter.

One thing is certain, either Pro-Koln or Spencer are lying.

12 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:08:35am

re: #8 jaunte

Robert Spencer, on April 24:

April 26:
Spencer says he's not going to the conference.
I wonder what he found out?

He's 'found' that that group cannot possibly be neonazi - because the German Interior Ministry have taken their website off their 'Far-Right' watchlist., according to an 'European correspondent'.

Thats all right then, innit, like - no need to actually take a closer look at their policies, the books they sell, their connections ... ////

13 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:09:13am

re: #8 jaunte

Robert Spencer, on April 24:

April 26:
Spencer says he's not going to the conference.
I wonder what he found out?

Not very much, since in the article on JW last night, he links to Manfred Rouhs and the books he sells, and there is old Finklestein, the self-hating Jew, with 2-3 of his books for sale. And he is defending Manfred Rouhs.

And the page is just loaded with other bastions of Nazi thought.

Go figure.

14 solomonpanting  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:09:30am

re: #1 Shug

Now is dewinter of his discontent

So what you're saying is that his attendance in Germany is pure Beisicht?

15 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:09:47am

re: #8 jaunte

I think enough people started looking that Spencer said, "Oh. They really are neo-nazis."

He claims that he only cares if people are anti-jihad. I'm beyond not comfortable with that.

16 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:09:54am

re: #8 jaunte

Robert Spencer, on April 24:

In reality, I would never be associated with any actual racists or neo-Nazis, but Johnson in his reckless efforts to destroy those whom he has decided are his enemies has made so many false allegations that it is difficult to sort out the truth. In this case, I have not confirmed that I will be attending, and am looking into the group and the people involved,

April 26:

Spencer says he's not going to the conference.
I wonder what he found out?

I'll wager that it's what he read - here. He must have followed a few of the many LGF links to their neofascist crapola, and decided that they were too indefensible for even HIM to defend attending.

17 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:10:12am

the first time I ever heard of LGF was listening to Tammy Bruce on Sirius about 4 years ago. I loved Tammy and after hearing about LGF, I checked it out. I knew the first time I visited the site it was going to be a large part of my online routine. But Charles, did you ever dream you'd become such an important voice?

18 Shug  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:10:14am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

.

One thing is certain, either Pro-Koln or Spencer are lying.

Motive

1. Why would they lie?
2. Why would he lie?

I think they have no motive to lie.
He does

19 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:10:55am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

And yet he is still defending these people and attacking Charles.....

20 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:11:13am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Charles, please know that if he speaks there, I will publicly apologize to you and the entire LGF community.

I have only tried to get this shouting match dialed down because I could not believe Spencer would go to such a meeting in the belief that the pro-democracy antiJihadi movement should be unified. If Spencer places himself in the non-democracy camp, he is beyond the pale and I shall have much egg on my face.

I am confident you understand that I have tried to act in good faith in this matter.

One thing is certain, either Pro-Koln or Spencer are lying.

I will ask you again. Then how come Spencer links to the books for sale, at the site edited by Manfred Rouhs. Have YOU looked at those books?

One thing is certain. Spencer is trying to do damage control with out upsetting his European friends. IMHO.

21 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:11:38am

re: #8 jaunte
He juante - maybe Spencer managed to get over his rabid hatred of Charles to read some of what Charles (and others here) have written?
But what I want to know is why on April 24th, Spencer didn't tell the orgainizers of that conference to stop advertising that he was not only attending but was going to be the primary speaker when he "hadn't yet decided whether or not to attend".

22 Ojoe  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:11:45am

Go Charles

23 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:12:17am

re: #12 yma o hyd

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

It would seem, after everything he's written and hosted saying that the fate of Europe hangs in the balance, that everyone must join despite 'philosophical' differences, to stem the Muslim tide sweeping over Europe, that to not attend this conference is to abandon long-held principles.

24 Ojoe  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:13:15am
25 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:13:17am

re: #21 realwest

Yes, I wondered why he hadn't posted a clarification, and publicly told them the same.

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:13:25am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini


If Spencer places himself in the non-democracy camp, he is beyond the pale and I shall have much egg on my face.


He already has by supporting Fillip Dewinter. He's very open about that.

27 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:13:31am

re: #16 Salamantis
Y'all posted that while I was typing my #21! GMTA!

28 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:14:13am

The Palestinian minister accused Israel of taking advantage of the patients arriving at the various checkpoints in order to get information on the various Palestinian groups and their operatives

[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

I hadn't thought of something like that, but not a bad idea in my opinion.

29 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:14:27am

One a very interesting side note, Israel allegedly sank an Iranian arms ship.

The Israeli media cannot by law leak military information and break stories by citing foreign press accounts.

The question is what ship and when? Could this be the mysterious Iranian death ship that cause a couple dozen pirates to die when they opened the containers? I have wondered what happened to the vessel ever since the pirates released it.

30 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:14:58am

re: #23 jaunte

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

It would seem, after everything he's written and hosted saying that the fate of Europe hangs in the balance, that everyone must join despite 'philosophical' differences, to stem the Muslim tide sweeping over Europe, that to not attend this conference is to abandon long-held principles.


He has painted himself into a very bad spot.

31 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:15:27am

re: #15 Dianna

neither am I

32 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:15:41am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Charles, please know that if he speaks there, I will publicly apologize to you and the entire LGF community.

I have only tried to get this shouting match dialed down because I could not believe Spencer would go to such a meeting in the belief that the pro-democracy antiJihadi movement should be unified. If Spencer places himself in the non-democracy camp, he is beyond the pale and I shall have much egg on my face.

I am confident you understand that I have tried to act in good faith in this matter.

One thing is certain, either Pro-Koln or Spencer are lying.

Look, it's very obvious that Spencer DID engage in discussions with them, and very likely gave at least a provisional agreement to speak. There are reports in several places that 1) he had been invited, but hadn't yet confirmed, and 2) that he confirmed. And this is even while he knew quite well that Pro Koln was not the only Eurofascist group that would be represented there.

The Pro Koln website continues to trumpet his appearance as a speaker. These are the people Spencer defends, while calling me a liar. But if he really isn't going to the conference, shouldn't he be calling THEM liars, instead of defending them and attacking me?

Bah. The whole thing just reeks of dishonesty and slime.

33 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:15:45am

re: #19 Sharmuta

And yet he is still defending these people and attacking Charles.....

Its the constant attacks on Charles I find pretty hard to forgive.

He obfuscates rather than admit he was wrong, he fills every post about this issue of associating with neonazis with attacks on Charles instead of looking at the facts presented to him.
A small, a petty mind.

Besides that - anybody who thinks its ok to associate with people who share the mindset of the filth that perpetrated the Holocaust is simply beyond the pale, as far as I'm concerned.
Yes, one can make mistakes and fall, once, for a shiny image - but when one's been given evidence, the only course is to distance oneself as far and as quickly as possible - but not engage in apologetics for such people.

34 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:15:57am

Charles said: Both of them are screaming about the “fauxtography,” to divert your attention from the fascist connections of these people — which, you may notice, they don’t dispute.

Robert says: An outright lie. Two of my three original points were devoted to disputing exactly that.

Robert- you didn't dispute their fascist connects. You posted apologia from them.

35 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:16:09am

The books they are selling are all Nazi stuff, some antisemitic material and some conspiracies. If they were really a party devoted to fighting Islamization where are the books on Jihad? The only 9-11 books they sell blame the CIA. It's a scam.

36 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:16:20am

re: #31 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

neither am I

He is...

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

37 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:17:41am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

The books they are selling are all Nazi stuff, some antisemitic material and some conspiracies. If they were really a party devoted to fighting Islamization where are the books on Jihad? The only 9-11 books they sell blame the CIA. It's a scam.

Yes, notice there is not a SINGLE Spencer book there. Hell, Robert should, in the least, wonder about that?

38 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:17:58am

re: #15 Dianna

I think enough people started looking that Spencer said, "Oh. They really are neo-nazis."

He claims that he only cares if people are anti-jihad. I'm beyond not comfortable with that.

I'm as uncomfortable as a rabid poodle.

39 J.S.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:18:13am

re: #19 Sharmuta

Direct Quote from Spencer: "In reality, the fact that we were invited to speak indicates in itself that Pro-Köln is not a neo-Nazi group."

40 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:18:46am

re: #35 Killgore Trout

You would think that looking at that would tell Spencer that he's fallen in with a very bad crowd, and that these are not allies. These are people using him as a beard.

41 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:19:07am

re: #23 jaunte

re: #13 Walter L. Newton

It would seem, after everything he's written and hosted saying that the fate of Europe hangs in the balance, that everyone must join despite 'philosophical' differences, to stem the Muslim tide sweeping over Europe, that to not attend this conference is to abandon long-held principles.

Yes, well, he might say that - but its an arguemtn that doesn't wash.

What is so difficult to grasp that people who have the same mindset as those who killed six million Jews will not hesitate to do the same to another group of people?
Is that really the best and only way how to counter jihad?

Why doesn't Spencer use his time to think of other ways, instead of wasting it with puerile attacks on Charles?

42 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:20:04am

re: #38 debutaunt

I'm as uncomfortable as a rabid poodle.

Not quite as workable. Huh. I'm thinking about tea-cups.

43 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:20:48am

re: #11 Ayatollah Ghilmeini
As I've said before - in the prior thread, I think you are consistently one of the best commenters out here.
Why are one of them lying? Maybe Spencer DID tell them that he'd attend, then after reflection (and perhaps reading what Charles said here) changed his mind? And there's no denying that they certainly used him to push that conference. Of course he won't appear there now - but he'll be SO PISSED OFF at Charles(instead at his own lack of research into that conference) that he'll blame Charles for this whole sordid mess. Calling him "a rabid chihuahua", IMO, insults rabid chihuahuas.

44 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:20:56am
(Buckley's sage advice to Gore Vidal comes to mind at this point.)

Is he threatening Charles with violence?!

45 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:22:29am

re: #44 Sharmuta

Is he threatening Charles with violence?!

Yes, he is. Or he's trying to incite someone among his crowd of sycophantic haters to do the work for him.

46 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:22:42am

Europe is clearly headed for some sort of civil war. the low native birthrate plus the high birthrate of the "Asians" is a ticking bomb. I hope the Jews who want to leave are given as much help as possible. Because when the nazi and islamist battle begins, the Jews of Europe will need to get out of everyone's way.

47 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:22:58am

re: #15 Dianna

I think enough people started looking that Spencer said, "Oh. They really are neo-nazis."

He claims that he only cares if people are anti-jihad. I'm beyond not comfortable with that.

We Southerners have a saying; as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

That's the kind of anxiety with which I would view the possibility that my own allies are in bed with euroneonazis.

And that's the kind of anxiety that Robert SHOULD feel, about the same thing.

And not about being FOUND OUT playing undercover footsies with them, which seems to be his primary concern.

48 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:23:26am

re: #39 J.S.
Hey J.S. - where is that quote from?

49 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:23:40am

re: #45 Charles

What?!

50 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:24:28am

re: #40 Dianna "These are people using him as a beard."
Huh? What does that mean?

51 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:25:21am

re: #50 realwest

"These are people using him as a beard."
Huh? What does that mean?

A cover for their actual features.

52 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:25:37am

re: #45 Charles

I'm speechless.

53 J.S.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:25:54am

re: #48 realwest

It's from Spencer's website...(written on April 23, 2009)...(the quote also was picked up at that "five-feet-of-fury" blogsite...it's a Canadian blogger..she's had problems, btw, with the HRC, etc.)

54 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:26:12am

re: #49 Dianna

What?!

He's referring to this: William F. Buckley, Jr.

After Buckley responded to Vidal's argument by stating that Vidal's position was "so naive" and saying of the protesters "some people were pro-Nazi", Vidal called Buckley a "Crypto-Nazi", to which Buckley replied, "Now listen, you queer, stop calling me a crypto-Nazi or I will sock you in your goddamn face, and you will stay plastered."

55 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:26:26am

re: #40 Dianna

You would think that looking at that would tell Spencer that he's fallen in with a very bad crowd, and that these are not allies. These are people using him as a beard.

He seems eager to let them use him.

56 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:26:32am

re: #50 realwest

"These are people using him as a beard."
Huh? What does that mean?

A "beard" is an old term for a person who is a distraction from another person's sexuality or profession.

A gay man married to a nice, attractive woman.

A con man or something similar, married to a teacher, nurse or other respectable person.

57 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:26:34am

re: #51 Salamantis
Ah, thanks.

58 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:03am

re: #41 yma o hyd

Why doesn't Spencer use his time to think of other ways, instead of wasting it with puerile attacks on Charles?

He is so invested in his own interpretation of the problem he perceives that his mind has become inflexible; its creativity is devoted to defending his preconceptions and attacking anything that raises doubt about them.

59 Zimriel  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:08am

re: #33 yma o hyd

Its the constant attacks on Charles I find pretty hard to forgive.

He obfuscates rather than admit he was wrong, he fills every post about this issue of associating with neonazis with attacks on Charles instead of looking at the facts presented to him.
A small, a petty mind.

Personal attacks are slimy, but it's the obfuscating and the distractions which get to me. They remind me of Glenn Greenwald's attempts to shake off accusations of sock puppeteering. Is it really so hard to say "I screwed up"?

60 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:17am

re: #56 Dianna
Got it, thanks. But isn't a "beard" a willing accomplice?

61 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:22am

re: #54 Charles

That part, I got. I recognized the quote.

My question had to do with the notion of incitement. As did my outrage.

62 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:27am

re: #47 Salamantis

We Southerners have a saying; as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

That's the kind of anxiety with which I would view the possibility that my own allies are in bed with euroneonazis.

And that's the kind of anxiety that Robert SHOULD feel, about the same thing.

And not about being FOUND OUT playing undercover footsies with them, which seems to be his primary concern.


Exactly!
Even if one unfortunately doesn't feel anxious about being in bed with neonazis, how is it possible not to recall how the Naziz MkI treated those who thought they could 'deal' with Hitler and his scum, and get rid of them after they'd done what was wanted?
Spencer must like being used as a tool ...

63 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:27:52am

re: #58 jaunte

He is so invested in his own interpretation of the problem he perceives that his mind has become inflexible; its creativity is devoted to defending his preconceptions and attacking anything that raises doubt about them.

That's the sort of thing narcissists do. Just sayin'.

64 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:28:39am

re: #55 Killgore Trout

He seems eager to let them use him.

Yes.

It's as if he's put on a set of blinders, and just won't look. I don't understand. It's flat-out political suicide for the anti-jihad movement.

65 axegrinder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:29:12am

re: #45 Charles

Yes, he is. Or he's trying to incite someone among his crowd of sycophantic haters to do the work for him.

Uh o. So it's like Farrakhan vs. Malcolm X all over again. The similarities are chilling...///

66 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:29:26am

re: #60 realwest

Got it, thanks. But isn't a "beard" a willing accomplice?

Most are. Some beards, though, are oblivious.

67 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:30:27am

Meanwhile the pro Koln webpage still confirms his attendance....
The list of international guests who are on anti-Islamisierungskongress of 8 bis 10. to 10 Mai teilnehmen werden reißt nicht ab. May participate does not stop. Now, with Robert Spencer, one of the world's best known and most respected Islam critic for his coming to the 9th Mai zugesagt. May agreed.

68 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:31:23am

re: #64 Dianna

Yes.

It's as if he's put on a set of blinders, and just won't look. I don't understand. It's flat-out political suicide for the anti-jihad movement.

I'm not gonna stand inside the Spencer Temple, and watch him pull a Samson. I'll stand outside with Charles and the LGF Lizards, thankyouverymuch.

He's not gonna bring down MY antijihadism along with HIS.

69 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:33:16am

re: #54 Charles

Accusing one's opponent as being a crypto-nazi seems to have become quite fashionable now.

Here's one comment from that jw article:
'Keep up the good work - it is important that crypto-fascists such as Charles Johnson are exposed - important because the people that benefit from this stupid argument the most are the Jihadists'
(My emphasis)

Well - when someone like Eli Wiesel is being called 'Zionazi', I'm thinking that those who use th '...nazi' epithet are of the same kind of mind as those who attacked Eli Wiesel - antijihad or not.

70 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:33:25am

re: #68 Salamantis

I'm not gonna stand inside the Spencer Temple, and watch him pull a Samson. I'll stand outside with Charles and the LGF Lizards, thankyouverymuch.

He's not gonna bring down MY antijihadism along with HIS.

Very much agreed. I'm very angry with Spencer, and getting angrier. I thought I'd reached the highest pitch of fury about 8 months ago, but this incident is actually worse.

You can tell when I'm getting really angry, because I start moderating my comments, hard.

71 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:34:20am

re: #64 Dianna

Yes.

It's as if he's put on a set of blinders, and just won't look. I don't understand. It's flat-out political suicide for the anti-jihad movement.


I respectfully disagree. It's flat out suicide for Spencer's anti-jihad, not ours or others of good faith.

72 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:34:31am

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Meanwhile the pro Koln webpage still confirms his attendance....
The list of international guests who are on anti-Islamisierungskongress of 8 bis 10. to 10 Mai teilnehmen werden reißt nicht ab. May participate does not stop. Now, with Robert Spencer, one of the world's best known and most respected Islam critic for his coming to the 9th Mai zugesagt. May agreed.

They're also now repeating Spencer's ridiculous 'fauxtography' diversion.

73 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:36:06am

re: #72 Charles
Holy crap! Do you think THEY think that Spencer is still going even after he posted that he won't be going?

74 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:36:14am

re: #64 Dianna

It's as if he's put on a set of blinders, and just won't look. I don't understand. It's flat-out political suicide for the anti-jihad movement.

It's tough to speculate what's going on in someone else's head but I think he knows what they're about and doesn't care. He has his own ethnic nationalist sympathies in regards to the Serbian genocide of Muslims and the Christian reconquest of Turkey. I don't think he's a Nazi and he probably doesn't even like Nazis but he sees them as useful allies. I think the political suicide is in denying it. It continues to put him in awkward positions. In today's political climate of Buchanan and Ron Paul he could easily just accept it and not talk about. Most people wouldn't even care or notice. Where he gets in trouble is the continuing denial.

75 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:37:40am

re: #72 Charles

They're also now repeating Spencer's ridiculous 'fauxtography' diversion.


That's a very good point. It's not like the webmaster is off for the weekend.

76 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:38:09am

re: #74 Killgore Trout

It's tough to speculate what's going on in someone else's head but I think he knows what they're about and doesn't care. He has his own ethnic nationalist sympathies in regards to the Serbian genocide of Muslims and the Christian reconquest of Turkey. I don't think he's a Nazi and he probably doesn't even like Nazis but he sees them as useful allies. I think the political suicide is in denying it. It continues to put him in awkward positions. In today's political climate of Buchanan and Ron Paul he could easily just accept it and not talk about. Most people wouldn't even care or notice. Where he gets in trouble is the continuing denial.

I hate it when I agree with you but that was spot on!

77 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:38:57am

re: #76 VegasRick

I hate it when I agree with you but that was spot on!

I hate it when you agree with me too but I'm fantastically correct.
/

78 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:39:04am

A Google translation of the Pro Koln page seems to say that Spencer and Geller have withdrawn as speakers -- which VERY STRONGLY indicates that they DID agree to speak originally.

79 Zimriel  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:39:06am

re: #47 Salamantis

We Southerners have a saying; as nervous as a long-tailed cat in a room full of rocking chairs.

That's the kind of anxiety with which I would view the possibility that my own allies are in bed with euroneonazis.

I can attest to that feeling. I used to be a Steve Sailer reader. I supported quite a lot of the people who have since revealed their true colours. I never got quite as far out there as, say, American Renaissance but I told myself that those sites were necessary for a truly balanced view.

And yes, it did suck to find some opinion of these guys which I knew wasn't true and/or was recognisable as a crypto-racist or antiSemitic canard.

I finally got tired of carrying water for these schmucks and I'm now more active on LGF.

80 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:39:39am

re: #74 Killgore Trout

I don't agree, entirely. Mostly, but when you write "in today's environment of Ron Paul and Buchanan", I have to say you're attributing a greater influence to the fringe than they have.

81 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:39:44am

First pamela posts Charles should be publicly flogged. Now spencer wants to go Buckley on Charles as Gore Vidal.

REALLY LOVELY PEOPLE!

82 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:40:11am
Meanwhile, at the website of Pro Koln, they still say Spencer is going to be the main speaker.


Reminds me to their announcement of LePen last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to announce Spencer until the congress will take place.
They are not just fascists, they are of the really dumb sort of fascists.

83 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:40:45am

Maybe Spencer will have a dramatic about face and actually go to the conference, just to show that "crypto-nazis who want to cut off his rights of speech and free association won't be given in to." /

Reminds me of the performer who gave so much energy to his performance, he broke down, and had to be led away cloaked by attendants, but suddenly tore away from them to grab the microphone one final time.

84 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:40:52am

re: #77 Killgore Trout

I hate it when you agree with me too but I'm fantastically correct.
/

For once.
/

85 swamprat  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:41:33am

Amazing how often people are willing to associate with nazis.
Until you call them out on it. Then they get ugly.
Rarely do they say;
"Whoa! Those guys were nazis?! Well, screw them!

The pattern is;
First they deny the association with nazism.
Then they attack the person who pointed out the association.
Then they quietly withdraw their attendance.
Do they ever attack the nazis themselves?
Well no. That would be unseemly.

86 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:41:55am

re: #82 gegenkritik

Reminds me to their announcement of LePen last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to announce Spencer until the congress will take place.
They are not just fascists, they are of the really dumb sort of fascists.

The latest post at the Pro Koln website seems to say that "under massive pressure," Spencer and Geller have withdrawn from the conference. Can you translate that?

[Link: www.pro-koeln-online.de...]

87 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:42:55am

re: #82 gegenkritik
No, not dumb at all. To the extent Spencer and Geller are "draws" it helps them promote the conference. But see Charles #78 above.

88 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:44:44am

The forerunner to pro-koln was a party founded by Rouhs and the son of a nazi SA leader. But you keep right on going, robert! Keep publishing apologia for that.

89 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:45:19am

The Pro Koln website says that they had written commitments from Spencer and Geller to attend.

90 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:45:57am

"Massive pressure" = Light and questions.

91 Shug  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:46:13am

re: #89 Charles

The Pro Koln website says that they had WRITTEN COMMITMENTS from Spencer and Geller to attend.

FORGERIES!

/

92 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:46:21am

re: #82 gegenkritik

Reminds me to their announcement of LePen last year. I wouldn't be surprised if they continue to announce Spencer until the congress will take place.
They are not just fascists, they are of the really dumb sort of fascists.

Maybe they're not so dumb. They want people to show up, so it makes economic sense for them not to announce the cancellation of their major draws.

Once people get there, they're already there, and are as likely to stick around and spend their money as not.

I expect them to announce a 'last minute' cancellation once the event has begun.

93 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:47:21am

re: #78 Charles

A Google translation of the Pro Koln page seems to say that Spencer and Geller have withdrawn as speakers -- which VERY STRONGLY indicates that they DID agree to speak originally.

Will they still attend?

94 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:47:29am

re: #88 Sharmuta

To be absolutely, scrupulously fair in the abstract: It is more than possible for someone to found a political party in complete revulsion and rejection of their parents' histories.

This does not seem to have been the case here.

It's flat-out stupid to ignore the associations and statements of this group.

95 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:47:46am

re: #91 Shug

FORGERIES!

/

Belgian Psyops!

/

96 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:48:01am

re: #92 Salamantis

Maybe they're not so dumb. They want people to show up, so it makes economic sense for them not to announce the cancellation of their major draws.

Once people get there, they're already there, and are as likely to stick around and spend their money as not.

I expect them to announce a 'last minute' cancellation once the event has begun.

They will blame it on "security issues" watch and see.

97 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:49:13am

re: #96 VegasRick

They will blame it on "security issues" watch and see.

William F. Buckley In Da House! And his fists are clenched!

98 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:49:37am

re: #94 Dianna

To be absolutely, scrupulously fair in the abstract: It is more than possible for someone to found a political party in complete revulsion and rejection of their parents' histories.

This does not seem to have been the case here.

It's flat-out stupid to ignore the associations and statements of this group.

No- it's not the case here- it's completely relevant because the son of the nazi was also involved with other neo-nazi parties before he founded the DLVH.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

99 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:49:38am

re: #92 Salamantis
See my #87 - and Get outta my head!
:)

100 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:49:45am

I'm patiently waiting for reality to rear up and bite one of them.

101 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:50:08am

This must really burn Spencer's ass. Speaking at that conference would mean big-time attention, and if there's one thing he loves more than "cordiality", it's preaching to the sweaty masses.

If Charles hadn't held his feet to the fire by relentlessly exposing the widely ramified connections among all these groups, Spencer would surely be going to join in the festivities. He would happily lend whatever legitimacy he has left to these people. And no one not paying close attention would be the wiser.

Now he's forced to choose between attention-whoring (and a trip to Europe, and probably a decent speaker's fee) and being linked up with the likes of Beisicht and Rouhs.

You've put his ass in a crack, Charles, and it's no wonder he's trying to bite you. Hard to do when your ass is stuck in a crack. He can pull himself out of it, man up, and admit he was wrong about some of his associates, or he can say "the heck with it" and go full-bore Vlaams Belang, or he can stay in his crevice and scream because he can't have it both ways.

Not a fun place to be. I almost feel sorry for him.

Almost.

102 lurking faith  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:50:21am

It's very sad to see a man of Spencer's talents go off the deep end.

In the immortal words of Dan Quayle:

What a waste it is to lose one's mind.

103 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:50:39am

I also HIGHLY recommend folks read this comment and the links contained therein:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

104 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:51:01am

This is really funny: pro Köln's statement at the first (altered) photo:

"This photograph was posted at the well-known US-Blog Little Green Footballs, to "prove" a partnership between head of Vlaams Belang Filip Dewinter and pro-Köln-leader Markus Beisicht." (quotation marks original)

And then they show why LGF completely failed at proving that there is a partnership between Dewinter and Beisicht: they post a picture of Dewinter and Beisicht shaking hands - but with a different background!
I have to apologize to pro-Köln, it is now very clear that there is absolutely no connection between your fascist Beisicht and VB-fascist Dewinter. Consider the background!

/Really, those people are so dumb, it nearly makes me speechless.

105 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:51:06am

re: #97 Salamantis

William F. Buckley In Da House! And his fists are clenched!

I drove the Birchers out when I was alive, and I'm not gonna let death keep me from barring your way in!

106 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:52:14am

re: #32 Charles

If you read the following and did not know the inner workings of Vlaams, might you conclude these guys were an acceptable ally in the anitJihad movement:

"Our growing reputation in the middle of society has also made grow the hatred of dhimmi parties and left wing groups against Pro-Köln. We are democratic patriots, strictly defending our constitution and the freedom of speech and expression.

We are also against the danger of Islamization, which includes the political fight for our Judeo-Christian heritage. We defend our Jewish people against the growing antisemitism of Muslim immigrants in Germany. We also know that in the Near East conflict the State of Israel is confronted with a much more powerful hatred and antisemitism from the Arab states. In this situation all democrats have to support the right to exist and the right to self-defense for the State of Israel, which is an outpost in the conflict with the Islamist threat. Our sympathies as a German civil rights group in this case are clear -- although as a regional anti-Islamization group we naturally do not make an active foreign policy.

Our main objective is the political opposition against the Islamization of Cologne and the mass immigration of Muslims to Germany and our home-state North Rhine-Westphalia. For this we are campaigning with our friends from all over Germany, Europe and the USA."

Trouble is, this is from from Rouhs' site. So if you didn't know he had Hitler Youth marching songs on the site, and played pattycake with Vlaam Belang, you might conclude these were good guys.

I think the Neonazis are getting clever. Say respectable things, stay legal by German law, gain power then first the Muslims get it, then the Jews. Have the unreconstructed Nazis denounce you and without further investigation, someone might be fooled and see this as a mainstream group.

Before folks go off on me on this, I do not know what Spencer thought when. On its face, these are not objectionable words, in fact they are EXACTLY what a pro-democracy anti-Islamist party would say. They are the words that I have wanted to see come from mainstream Euroconservatives but they cannot bring themselves to say. This has opened the door to Rouhs to the world to march in, seize the issue and leave me with the queasy feeling that the dudes in the black leather jackets are playing us all.

107 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:52:54am

Rabid chihuahua, indeed.

You're right about all of this of course Charles. Thanos has a great related entry up on his blog, did you see it? He doesn't link here, but I posted the link on mine.

And, good morning lizardia.

108 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:53:40am
109 lurking faith  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:53:49am

re: #86 Charles

The latest post at the Pro Koln website seems to say that "under massive pressure," Spencer and Geller have withdrawn from the conference. Can you translate that?

[Link: www.pro-koeln-online.de...]

That link failed for me.

110 swamprat  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:53:50am
111 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:53:51am

re: #104 gegenkritik
Did you see Charles question to you at #86?

112 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:53:55am

Rouhs is also a holocaust denier:

In 1984 in the journal The rural populace of the Holocaust deniers Thies Christophersen a letter published by "Manfred Rouhs, Krefeld" was drawn. They are "(i) m 3rd Reich not 6 million Jews gassed or otherwise murdered," and "also the 2nd World War, we Germans are not in debt, "it said.

[Link: translate.google.com...]

113 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:54:29am

re: #108 taxfreekiller
Oh. crap. Was she blathering her ignorance of the flu?

114 VegasRick  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:54:53am

re: #108 taxfreekiller

Janet ,, uh, ah, uh, da, uh, ay, ah,

and the flu can not be transmitted by uh's or ah's.

Thats who that is! I thought it was thr Raiders latest draft pick!

115 zeebeach  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:55:40am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

Thanks for that post. Says it all, doesn't it? The enemy of my enemy is my friend. What a crock of shit. How intellectually dishonest can one be? Robert, you really suck.

Sorry, Charles, for the language. I'm angry and disgusted.

116 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:56:20am

re: #112 Sharmuta
Such nice people. Where is my frakkin' clue bat?!

117 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:56:30am
118 Zimriel  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:57:11am

re: #102 lurking faith

It's very sad to see a man of Spencer's talents go off the deep end.

In the immortal words of Dan Quayle:

What a waste it is to lose one's mind.

"or not to have a mind at all. how true that is."

119 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:57:20am

re: #113 pingjockey
Hey ping - I have NO IDEA of what she said, I do know that the head of the CDC stopped just short of calling it a flu pandemic but they are all over this thing.
Now we've apparently got students in a NYC school who've come down with this flu.
This could get to be very bad indeed.

120 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:57:33am

Charles, here's the meat from that announcement

Die unglaubliche linke Hetzkampagne in den USA hat trotz offensichtlicher Fälschungen (s.o.) ihre Wirkung leider nicht verfehlt: Die beiden amerikanischen Islamkritiker Pamela Geller und Robert Spencer werden derzeit massiv unter Druck gesetzt und haben deshalb mit Bedauern ihre schriftlichen Zusagen von letzter Woche zurückgenommen, freilich nicht ohne pro Köln und den Anti-Islamisierungskongreß weiterhin offensiv zu verteidigen.

The unbelievably malicious campaign in the USA, despite obvious forgeries (see above), has unfortunately not missed its mark: The two American Islam critics Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are currently under massive pressure and have therefore regretfully retracted their written agreements [to attend the conference] - but at least they continue to actively (heh: German "offensiv") defend pro Köln and the Anti-Islamization Congress.

People all over are just having a heck of a bad day.

121 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:57:57am

re: #86 Charles
The update part regarding Geller and Spencer:

The incredible smear-campaign, despite obvious fakes, has not failed: the two American Islam-critics Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are currently under heavy pressure, thus withdrawing their written promise with regret, but still courageously defending pro-Köln and the conference.

This proves, that Geller and Spencer both have confirmed to appear there.

122 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:57:57am

re: #104 gegenkritik

Can you translate this section for me?

Die unglaubliche linke Hetzkampagne in den USA hat trotz offensichtlicher Fälschungen (s.o.) ihre Wirkung leider nicht verfehlt: Die beiden amerikanischen Islamkritiker Pamela Geller und Robert Spencer werden derzeit massiv unter Druck gesetzt und haben deshalb mit Bedauern ihre schriftlichen Zusagen von letzter Woche zurückgenommen, freilich nicht ohne pro Köln und den Anti-Islamisierungskongreß weiterhin offensiv zu verteidigen.

The Google translator is not very clear, but it looks as if they're saying both Spencer and Geller agreed in writing to speak at the conference.

123 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:58:19am

re: #119 realwest
Just turned on FNC, the WH is having a press conference on this issue.

124 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:58:35am

re: #117 taxfreekiller

So, Sec. of Homeland Security , says ,,,"wash your hands".

Your safe now.

Well, it's at least good advice at all times.

125 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:58:49am

Ah, that's what I thought.

126 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:59:19am
127 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:59:49am

re: #120 Cato the Elder


but at least they continue to actively (heh: German "offensiv") defend pro Köln and the Anti-Islamization Congress.


Heh.

128 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:59:55am

They committed to go, and then the light was shown upon them and now it is hiding/obfuscation time.

129 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #89 Charles

The Pro Koln website says that they had written commitments from Spencer and Geller to attend.

It's hard to believe that they would do this thinking that they wouldn't be called out on it. Clearly, they don't care anymore if their associations are made public because they know that their readers aren't going to dig. In fact they bank on the ignorance and apathy of their commentors who for the most part, take everything they say at face value.

The level of manipulation and deception at AS and JW is just stunning.

130 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 9:59:58am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Thanks for the translation. What I got, feeding it through an on-line traslator, was actively funny, but not very informative.

131 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:00:39am

re: #122 Charles

Can you translate this section for me?

The Google translator is not very clear, but it looks as if they're saying both Spencer and Geller agreed in writing to speak at the conference.

See Gegenkritik's and my translations. His is freer, mine is more literal.

132 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:00:59am

re: #130 Dianna

Thanks for the translation. What I got, feeding it through an on-line traslator, was actively funny, but not very informative.

The broken English can be hilarious.

133 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:01:04am

re: #130 Dianna
Some of these translation programs are good for a laugh but not for getting the true translation.

134 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:01:08am

re: #122 Charles
I have, same second you posted. :)
But Cato's translation is better.

135 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:01:41am

re: #120 Cato the Elder

Charles, here's the meat from that announcement

People all over are just having a heck of a bad day.

Crikey!
So pointing out the bare facts is now a 'malicious campaign'?
Hm - I seem to remember that this sort of accusation has been used before, by the forefathers of that group ...

136 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:01:55am

So anybody watch the WH presser about "Swine Flu"? I can't tell if it could really be serious or the Admin just trying divert attention?

137 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:02:21am

re: #131 Cato the Elder

See Gegenkritik's and my translations. His is freer, mine is more literal.


But you both said that Spencer and Geller had agreed in writing to attend.

138 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:02:23am

Apparently the gov't has enacted some kind of emergency public health declaration. It contains NO quarenteen provisions.

139 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:02:44am

re: #128 pingjockey

They committed to go, and then the light was shown upon them and now it is hiding/obfuscation time.


They're not really committed to the antijihad movement if they can't take a little criticism, then, are they?
///

140 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:02:48am

re: #136 Nevergiveup

I didn't see the presser, but I am seeing stories that indicate the Swine Flu is spreading fast, and could present a real public health problem.

141 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:03:11am

re: #139 jaunte
Heh!

142 Randall Gross  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:03:15am

Charles, I want to thank you for fixing the issue I was having connecting, even in the midst of this you are industrious and honest.

143 affenkopf  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:03:36am

According to pi-news Lars Hedegaard has also withdrawn as a speaker (and of course pi-news continues to smear Charles in their posts).

144 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:03:48am

re: #138 pingjockey

Apparently the gov't has enacted some kind of emergency public health declaration. It contains NO quarenteen provisions.

Then it's not an emergency.

If it's a real emergency, you quarantine, and you do it hard.

Idiots. We're in a John Ringo novel.

145 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:04:25am

re: #142 Thanos

Charles, I want to thank you for fixing the issue I was having connecting, even in the midst of this you are industrious and honest.

Charles doesn't start with a conclusion.

146 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:04:31am

re: #138 pingjockey

Apparently the gov't has enacted some kind of emergency public health declaration. It contains NO quarenteen provisions.

Seems like a whole lot of nothing from the CDC and DHS so far

147 Lincolntf  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:04:44am

re: #136 Nevergiveup

I'm watching now. The admonition that everyone who is experiencing flu-like symptoms should contact a doctor is a bit odd and vague. I'm guessing that right now in America, there are millions and millions of people with headaches, nausea, lethargy, etc.
Hope people don't freak out and make a bad situation worse.

148 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:04:52am

re: #121 gegenkritik

The update part regarding Geller and Spencer:

The incredible smear-campaign, despite obvious fakes, has not failed: the two American Islam-critics Pamela Geller and Robert Spencer are currently under heavy pressure, thus withdrawing their written promise with regret, but still courageously defending pro-Köln and the conference.

This proves, that Geller and Spencer both have confirmed to appear there.

Doesn't 'linke' smear campaign (in the original) mean its a campaign run by lefties?

149 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:05:26am

re: #144 Dianna
Yep. Hopefully the CDC is working their asses off. The Gov't says right now it's too late to stop the spread of this flu.

150 MandyManners  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:05:30am

re: #129 Irish Rose

Didn't Spencer lend a lot of help to the lgf2 folks who trash Charles on a regular basis?

151 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:05:32am

re: #147 Lincolntf

I'm watching now. The admonition that everyone who is experiencing flu-like symptoms should contact a doctor is a bit odd and vague. I'm guessing that right now in America, there are millions and millions of people with headaches, nausea, lethargy, etc.
Hope people don't freak out and make a bad situation worse.

Well with this crowd in charge, who knows?

152 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:05:34am

re: #144 Dianna

Then it's not an emergency.

If it's a real emergency, you quarantine, and you do it hard.

Idiots. We're in a John Ringo novel.

Does the US still use the quarantine?

153 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:05:49am

re: #150 MandyManners

Didn't Spencer lend a lot of help to the lgf2 folks who trash Charles on a regular basis?

Hell- they're on his blogroll!

154 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:06:15am

re: #149 pingjockey

Yep. Hopefully the CDC is working their asses off. The Gov't says right now it's too late to stop the spread of this flu.

It all seem like a few movies I've seen

155 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:06:39am

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Seems like a whole lot of nothing from the CDC and DHS so far

I think they just said, "Die at home, please."

156 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:06:48am

re: #152 debutaunt
It is an option. The constituition is not a suicide pact. The gov't by law has to protect its citizens.

157 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:06:55am

re: #150 MandyManners

Didn't Spencer lend a lot of help to the lgf2 folks who trash Charles on a regular basis?

Yes, he linked to them in posts, and has put them in his blogroll. Along with a host of other fascist supporters.

158 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:06:56am

re: #137 realwest

But you both said that Spencer and Geller had agreed in writing to attend.

Indeed. Zusagen can be rendered as "agreements", "commitments", "confirmations", "affirmations", "assurances", "pledges", "promises" - among other things - but there can be absolutely no doubt about what they're claiming: that Pam and Robert both gave promises in writing to attend.

159 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:09am

re: #148 yma o hyd
Correct, I forgot the word left. Sorry, lousy English and too less sleep here.

160 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:14am

re: #153 Sharmuta
Yep. Insidious snots.

161 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:15am

re: #148 yma o hyd

Doesn't 'linke' smear campaign (in the original) mean its a campaign run by lefties?

Yes.

162 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:32am

re: #147 Lincolntf

I'm watching now. The admonition that everyone who is experiencing flu-like symptoms should contact a doctor is a bit odd and vague. I'm guessing that right now in America, there are millions and millions of people with headaches, nausea, lethargy, etc.
Hope people don't freak out and make a bad situation worse.

Only the millions of folks who have read Stephen King's The Stand are freaking...

/Shades of Captain Trips!

163 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:41am

re: #152 debutaunt

Does the US still use the quarantine?

Haven't we quarantined most of the morons in Washington DC?

164 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:07:56am

The webpage says Spencer has been replaced by Josep Anglada....


Josep Anglada i Rius, José Anglada also Rius (Vic, Barcelona, 1959) is a political extreme Spanish, founder and president of xenophobic political party platform per Catalunya. Desde mayo de 2003 es concejal del ayuntamiento de Vic. Since May 2003 is councilor of the municipality of Vic

[ 2 ] Ex-militant new force, [1] in the European Parliament elections in 1989 was candidate of the extreme right-wing National Front, led by the former leader Franco Blas Piñar.

Heh. Anyone know about this guy? I think we all know where an investigation into him is going to lead.

165 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:08:03am

re: #162 Salamantis
Randall Flagg was unavailable for comment.

166 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:08:12am

re: #147 Lincolntf

The problem is that, when faced with a pandemic, there ought to be a "ring" quarantine.

167 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:08:23am

Curiously, it's difficult not to be leftward of Nazis.

168 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:08:24am

re: #134 gegenkritik

I have, same second you posted. :)
But Cato's translation is better.

Aw, shucks... [scuffs foot on ground, blushes]

169 Zimriel  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:08:41am

re: #119 realwest

Hey ping - I have NO IDEA of what she said, I do know that the head of the CDC stopped just short of calling it a flu pandemic but they are all over this thing.
Now we've apparently got students in a NYC school who've come down with this flu.
This could get to be very bad indeed.

Glenn Reynolds has a link, to WaPo:

“U.S. public health officials did not know about a growing outbreak of swine flu in Mexico until nearly a week after that country started invoking protective measures, and didn’t learn that the deaths were caused by a rare strain of the influenza until after Canadian officials did. . . . U.S. public health officials are still largely in the dark about what’s happening in Mexico two weeks after the outbreak was recognized.”

A lot of this, (IMO: I have no inside knowledge), has to do with Obama's joke of an appointment process. Remember that Obama was going to put Tom Daschle in charge of Health and Human Services. Daschle is about my least favourite person in American politics, if you don't count the crypto-Brichers; he is nothing more than a party hack and a lobbyist flack. His abortive appointment was a Dem version of Heckuvajob Brownie at FEMA, and the circus around it must have been demoralising for everyone involved in the HHS / CDC nexus. It showed that Obama cared more about rewarding cronies and nationalising healthcare than about actual public health.

170 Shug  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:09:13am

I like the honey these killer bees make. I admire their honey making efforts.
Who they sting, that doesn't concern me.

--Robert Spencer

171 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:09:25am

re: #159 gegenkritik

Correct, I forgot the word left. Sorry, lousy English and too less sleep here.

Not lousy English at all!

And thank you for all your work - especially when you're tired.

It just stuck in my craw - because implying that Charles is a Leftie is too too funny.
On the other hand, that announcement reads like it could have come straight from Goebbel's pen - pre-1933, natch!

172 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:09:31am

re: #157 Charles

Um, Charles? I'm sorry to bug you, but my Male is trying to log in, and he gets "authentication failure."

Have you been doing a clean up, and deleted accounts that don't get used much? If so, should he send you an email?

173 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:09:33am

i hope they don't use this "crisis" to do anything radical on health care. we know they hate to waste a good crisis.

174 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:09:55am

re: #166 Dianna
I think what the cdc is saying is, the damn flu has spread to far to be contained. NYC, San Diego, El Paso, and with air travel, who knows where infected people have got to.

175 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:11am

re: #149 pingjockey
Yeah but what the government DIDN'T SAY was that Tamiflu IS effective against the flu and that there's a ton of it already made.

176 Zimriel  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:24am

re: #146 Nevergiveup

Seems like a whole lot of nothing from the CDC and DHS so far

I forgot about DHS. Don't get me started on them.

177 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:24am

re: #173 _RememberTonyC

i hope they don't use this "crisis" to do anything radical on health care. we know they hate to waste a good crisis.

One word for that: reconciliation

178 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:42am

re: #130 Dianna

Thanks for the translation. What I got, feeding it through an on-line traslator, was actively funny, but not very informative.

Machine translation will never work until Skynet becomes self-aware. Which is scheduled for the day after the Greek Kalends, when the Mayan time-reckoning comes to an end...

179 lurking faith  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:43am

re: #148 yma o hyd

Doesn't 'linke' smear campaign (in the original) mean its a campaign run by lefties?

Yes.

180 Nevergiveup  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:10:54am

re: #176 Zimriel

I forgot about DHS. Don't get me started on them.

DHS DHS DHS DHS

181 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:11:06am

re: #152 debutaunt

Does the US still use the quarantine?

It can. We haven't in so long I'm not sure if we'd do it or not. It's politically very risky.

I was quarantined when I got the mumps, but only to the extent that I was told that I had to stay at home for 19 days. No one came and enforced it.

182 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:11:07am

re: #175 realwest
Chris Wallace just brought that up.

183 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:11:26am

re: #172 Dianna

Um, Charles? I'm sorry to bug you, but my Male is trying to log in, and he gets "authentication failure."

Have you been doing a clean up, and deleted accounts that don't get used much? If so, should he send you an email?

Username?

184 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:11:37am

re: #64 Dianna

There is joy in CAIR HQ. If Spencer is innocent, the bad blood with LGF will poison the anti-Jihad movement for years to come. If Spencer has adopted a don't ask, don't tell as his fascism litmus test, the anti-Jihad movement loses a guy who has previously been an effective outspoken critic of Islamist extremism.

The rhetoric keeps ratcheting up. Spencer' Buckley-Vidal comment stokes the fire further.

Perhaps the air could be cleared if Spencer agreed to answer the critical questions:

Are you aware that VB uses Eurofascist symbols and appears to be working with extremist groups across Europe?

Are you aware the Rouhs site is hawking Hitler Youth music?

Do you believe Filip Dewinter is prodemocracy or profascism?

Did you agree to speak at Pro-Koln?

This would clear the air once and for all.

185 Salamantis  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:12:22am

re: #174 pingjockey

I think what the cdc is saying is, the damn flu has spread to far to be contained. NYC, San Diego, El Paso, and with air travel, who knows where infected people have got to.

Yep...with the advent of quick, easy and anonymous travel all over came the end of the efficacy of regional quarantines.

Human epidemics don't simply geographically expand like an advance of fire ants or killer bees any more; they go from nowhere to somewhere to everywhere like that! (snap)

186 realwest  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:12:49am

re: #182 pingjockey Ah, did he support what I said - that Tamiflu is effective and we have a LOT OF IT ALREADY MADE?

187 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:13:27am

re: #184 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Did you not watch the video I linked for you yesterday? He's on record as saying these people are not fascists! Do I need to link it again? I did it so that you would watch, you know- not for my health. You don't have to take my word for it either- it's on video!

188 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:13:33am

Btw - looking at the thread title, which says that Spencer is still defending that neonazi group: no way to weasel out of that one, now, is there, Mr Spencer?
The prokoln people say so, themselves, on their website ...

189 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:13:35am

by the way ... celtics and bulls are underway on abc ... great game so far!

190 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:13:51am

re: #186 realwest
No, just said there is 50 million doses already on hand and they are starting the wheels to get it to the front line hospitals.

191 lurking faith  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:14:07am

re: #178 Cato the Elder

Machine translation will never work until Skynet becomes self-aware. Which is scheduled for the day after the Greek Kalends, when the Mayan time-reckoning comes to an end...

On the other hand, I find that the publication of a machine translation is effective in provoking me to work on an actual translation, if the original is in a language I can puzzle out at all.

192 J.S.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:14:26am

re: #174 pingjockey

Now we have 4 confirmed cases of swine flu in Nova Scotia, Canada. (the news last night showed thousands of dumb-ass Canadians heading off to vacation in Mexico -- completely sans concerns, protection, etc. No travel advisory...also flu cases in Windsor area...)

193 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:14:34am

re: #174 pingjockey

I think what the cdc is saying is, the damn flu has spread to far to be contained. NYC, San Diego, El Paso, and with air travel, who knows where infected people have got to.

It's still possible to contain it, but it's politically messy. So this administration will sit around, dither, wring their hands, and nothing will get done.

194 Killgore Trout  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:14:40am

re: #184 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Perhaps the air could be cleared if Spencer agreed to answer the critical questions:

Are you aware that VB uses Eurofascist symbols and appears to be working with extremist groups across Europe?

Are you aware the Rouhs site is hawking Hitler Youth music?

Do you believe Filip Dewinter is prodemocracy or profascism?

Did you agree to speak at Pro-Koln?

He won't. We tried that route before and he'll only obfuscate.

195 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:15:05am

re: #183 Charles

Username?

Outlaw_Wizard.

196 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:15:17am

re: #191 lurking faith

On the other hand, I find that the publication of a machine translation is effective in provoking me to work on an actual translation, if the original is in a language I can puzzle out at all.

True that. It has its uses. But they've never yet come up with a program that doesn't require more or less massive post-editing.

197 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:15:46am

re: #184 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

There is joy in CAIR HQ. If Spencer is innocent, the bad blood with LGF will poison the anti-Jihad movement for years to come. If Spencer has adopted a don't ask, don't tell as his fascism litmus test, the anti-Jihad movement loses a guy who has previously been an effective outspoken critic of Islamist extremism.

The rhetoric keeps ratcheting up. Spencer' Buckley-Vidal comment stokes the fire further.

Perhaps the air could be cleared if Spencer agreed to answer the critical questions:

Are you aware that VB uses Eurofascist symbols and appears to be working with extremist groups across Europe?

Are you aware the Rouhs site is hawking Hitler Youth music?

Do you believe Filip Dewinter is prodemocracy or profascism?

Did you agree to speak at Pro-Koln?

This would clear the air once and for all.

Look -- Robert Spencer is well aware of all of that. Before he decided he was going to just look the other way on this issue, we exchanged numerous emails on the subject. He is absolutely NOT IGNORANT.

198 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:15:56am

re: #183 Charles

Whoops - he just told me he did a password reset and is in.

I'm sorry. He's much more competent on the computer than I am.

199 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:16:48am

re: #195 Dianna

Outlaw_Wizard.

Well, it looks like a bad password. He should try the 'Forgot your password?' feature to reset it.

200 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:16:59am

Well, there you go then.

201 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #178 Cato the Elder

Machine translation will never work until Skynet becomes self-aware. Which is scheduled for the day after the Greek Kalends, when the Mayan time-reckoning comes to an end...

Excuse me, I just fell out of my chair because I was laughing so hard.

I need more updings for that. I really do!

202 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:17:49am

re: #193 Dianna
It is in 5 states. I don't see how you could contain it now? Do it like that Tom Clancy book. no public gatherings of any kind, only people at work are police/fire/utilities, close everything down.

203 Dianna  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:17:51am

re: #200 Charles

Well, there you go then.

Yep. Thanks.

Sorry to interrupt the thwacking.

204 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:18:44am

Ayatollah Ghilmeini, are you in a state of denial? You don't want to look at some of the things we're pointing out because deep down you know Charles is right, and spencer is dirty. You're clinging to false hope, and desperately so. I suppose part of me can understand- the truth is difficult to accept at times.

205 J.S.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:20:30am

re: #202 pingjockey

I would expect (from Canada) at the very least to issue a "travel advisory" -- yet they haven't even done that...

206 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:21:13am

re: #205 J.S.
That's odd.

207 gegenkritik  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:21:35am

re: #104 gegenkritik
Have to correct me again: I overlooked that they wrote "prove with militant Neonazis". Either this was changed meanwhile or it seems I should really get some sleep now, good night all!

208 vitoc  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:26:58am

Re the German original at the Pro Köln website: They are actually not only speaking of leftists smearing them, they also speak of left wing extremists - "Linksextremisten". Right, anyone who disagrees with them absolutely has to be a pinko-commie, right?

209 J.S.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:27:36am

re: #206 pingjockey

Update -- there's now a travel advisory for Canadians traveling to Mexico (they recommend that people wishing to go on vacation to Mexico should get flu shots...)

210 debutaunt  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:28:10am

re: #155 Dianna

I think they just said, "Die at home, please."

Should we moisturize after all the hand washing?

211 vitoc  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:30:54am

re: #37 Walter L. Newton

Nah, the fact that they do not sell Spencer's book primarily has to do with the fact that they are not translated into German. And I guess Rouhs is correct in his judgment that the kind of people who buy his shit are simply not able to read a book in English. Noticed how shitty the English in the release by Pro Köln was? That didn't go unnoticed even in the comments section of their fans at pi-news. What does that mean? It means that among the friends and members of Pro Köln there isn't a single person who is able to write a decent text in English. :-)

212 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:34:33am

I fully expect the next lines of attack, and they've probably already started on Charles, to come along the lines of empowering CAIR and that we've weakened the anti-Jihadi efforts globally because of exposing the ties of Spencer (who seems to have an inflated opinion of himself), Pamela (another one not short of excessive ego), and the neo-nazis / nationalists / white supremacists who they accept as open allies.

These attacks will continue the current pattern, ignoring the linkages and odious policies of these political parties, their obvious efforts to spin their policies to deflect attention from the positions which placed them in the fringe to start with, and focus on the 'weakening' of the effort. It will ignore the fact that these are nothing but fringe groups that seek recognition to move into the mainstream and that the only enablers are Spencer, Geller, and their advocates and supporters.

They are the ones that are weakening the anti-jihad efforts with their moral and intellectual bankruptcy.

213 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:40:11am

The latest lie that's being pushed -- hard -- is that I "forged" the photo of DeWinter and Beisicht shaking hands. Here's another creep who's lying about it:

[Link: fact-fiction.net...]

214 Sacred Plants  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:41:12am

OPEN COMPETITION: Design your own DeWinter-Beisicht handshake

Here´s the template.

Here´s my own take.

Have fun lizards!

215 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:42:43am

I wonder if they're trying to weasel out of written contracts?

216 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:43:29am

re: #184 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

...If Spencer has adopted a don't ask, don't tell as his fascism litmus test, the anti-Jihad movement loses a guy who has previously been an effective outspoken critic of Islamist extremism...

How many times do I have to post this AG?

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

217 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:43:43am

Lie down with nazis, get up with swastikas.

218 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:45:13am

re: #216 Walter L. Newton
How many times is this that you've posted that gem? Some folks refuse to comprehend what they read.

219 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:45:23am

re: #214 Sacred Plants

Do one with no background at all. That would tell the same story.

220 Lynn B.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:45:33am

re: #150 MandyManners

Didn't Spencer lend a lot of help to the lgf2 folks who trash Charles on a regular basis?

SN was posting comments in the photoshop thread. Something along the lines of "HAHAHAHAHA Busted." Deep.

221 zuckerlilly  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:45:34am

Charles,

pro-Koeln also accuses you (not by name) to "agitate with a high degree of criminal energy"...

Mit ebenso großer krimineller Energie läuft seit dem Bekanntwerden der Zusagen von mehreren hochrangigen US-Islamkritikern zum Anti-Islamisierungskongreß ein regelrechtes öffentliches Kesseltreiben gegen diese Islamwissenschaftler und gegen pro Köln in Amerika.

222 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:47:43am

re: #213 Charles

The latest lie that's being pushed -- hard -- is that I "forged" the photo of DeWinter and Beisicht shaking hands. Here's another creep who's lying about it:

[Link: fact-fiction.net...]

Isn't that the same 'original' photo that Robert published in his attack on via the photoshop charge? The one where the focus was on the background, not the obvious point that they were shaking hands and being quite friendly (as opposed to polite / proper)?

Guess these cretins finally released that they spent an entire day whinging about the wrong focus.....

223 Lynn B.  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:48:05am

re: #15 Dianna

I think enough people started looking that Spencer said, "Oh. They really are neo-nazis."

No indication of that. I think it's more what Charles said

They only canceled after it became very clear that their associations with Eurofascists would not go unnoticed.

They may have gotten mail from people whose support they can't afford to lose.

224 Claire  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:49:12am

re: #209 J.S.

But does this year's vaccine mix protect against this new strain?

225 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:49:35am

re: #218 pingjockey

How many times is this that you've posted that gem? Some folks refuse to comprehend what they read.

I've already posted the email exchange to AG earlier this morning and there was no answer from AG on them. It was the second question I asked AG, who refused to answer either of them, yet he/she still comments on and on as Spencer's new apologist.

226 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:50:42am

re: #225 Walter L. Newton
You posted that for me, IIRC at least three days ago. So I could see Mr. Spencers' pearls of wisdom.///

227 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:52:46am

Yes, AG- there is joy in CAIRville- because robert hoisted himself with his own petard. I fail to see how it's anyone's responsibility to protect robert's reputation other than robert. If he and others don't like that CAIR can tar him/them with a neo-nazi brush- he has no one to blame but himself.

Meanwhile- instead of denouncing these nazis, he's attacking Charles. One would think if robert was so concerned about his reputation, and didn't want to be associating with nazis, he would be thanking Charles for exposing these people so that he can keep his reputation pristine. But that's not what's happening. robert is publishing on his website apologia and excuses for these nazis, and making Charles the bad guy. And yet you still don't want to see this as problematic.

You are very well respected here, AG. However, defending the indefensible might be something about which you should think twice.

228 pingjockey  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:53:05am

BBIAB laundry

229 Throbert McGee  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:54:05am

re: #196 Cato the Elder

True that. It has its uses. But they've never yet come up with a program that doesn't require more or less massive post-editing.

But that massive editing may still be less time-consuming than manually searching for unfamiliar foreign words in a translation dictionary.

230 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:56:04am

re: #214 Sacred Plants

OPEN COMPETITION: Design your own DeWinter-Beisicht handshake

Here´s the template.

Here´s my own take.

Have fun lizards!

How about one where the background is the Running of the Bulls.

231 Cato the Elder  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:57:01am

re: #229 Throbert McGee

But that massive editing may still be less time-consuming than manually searching for unfamiliar foreign words in a translation dictionary.

Again, true. Professional translators (including me) use computer aids all the time. Just pointing out the limitations, and basically saying that true "machine translation" in the you-pop-it-in-and-get-the-same-thing-out-in-Esperanto sense will not happen until we achieve AI self-awareness.

Language is the supreme self-aware activity.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:57:26am

re: #36 Walter L. Newton

He is...

"Robert, can you answer one simple question for me. This would help a lot in deciding what is really going on here. Which European political parties do you UNCONDITIONALLY condemn because of their proven ties to racist nationalism?" (Walter L. Newton email to Robert Spencer sent on Friday, November 07, 2008 1:16 PM)

And his answer...

"Actually, I am fighting jihad, and have no interest in or intention to investigate these groups. Insofar as they are fighting jihad, I applaud them. Insofar as they are doing anything else, my endorsement is not implied." (Robert Spencer email answer to Walter L. Newton sent on Sat 11/8/2008 10:39 AM)

Yeah. Replace 'jihad' with 'communism' or 'facism', and see what kind of bedfellows that kind of thinking has provided people with over the years.

The enemy of my sister-in-law is my friend--only up to a point.

233 Sacred Plants  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:57:40am

re: #230 Sharmuta

Download the template and add whatever background you can imagine.

234 Euler  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:59:28am

re: #54 Charles

Spencer's reference to Buckley's outburst as "sage advice to Gore Vidal" has an unintended irony. Buckley consciously used his famous cool as a shield against name-calling attacks on his credibility. Vidal goaded Buckley to drop the shield for a moment. Buckley regretted the outburst as anything but sage.

See the paragraph beginning "If scoring points gracefully was victory, revealing visceral anger was defeat", here.

Referring to the outburst as "sage advice" is the polar opposite of Buckley's happy warrior style; it is cheesy.

235 Throbert McGee  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:59:31am

re: #208 vitoc

Re the German original at the Pro Köln website: They are actually not only speaking of leftists smearing them, they also speak of left wing extremists - "Linksextremisten".

Ooooh... I like the "link sex" part.

236 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 10:59:56am

re: #40 Dianna

You would think that looking at that would tell Spencer that he's fallen in with a very bad crowd, and that these are not allies. These are people using him as a beard.

So to speak.

(BTW, I mentioned Spencer's fall-in with the Istabul Reconquistadores to my father. He'd never heard of Spencer, but after he stopped repeating "This is our NATO ALLY Turkey we're talking about?" he started a hilarious schtick about the day the Istanbul police had to stop an invasion by six guys in a rent-a-car.)

237 jaunte  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:02:48am

re: #227 Sharmuta

Spencer's logic is not internally consistent. If he thinks the goals of the Pro-Koln conference are worthy, and the criticisms of the organizers are unfounded, then the right thing to do would be for him to attend the conference. Not to attend, using the excuse of having to endure criticism by people he paints as obviously wrong-headed, means according to his own arguments that he has a very weak commitment to the goals of anti-jihad.

238 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:04:06am

re: #234 Euler

Spencer's reference to Buckley's outburst as "sage advice to Gore Vidal" has an unintended irony. Buckley consciously used his famous cool as a shield against name-calling attacks on his credibility. Vidal goaded Buckley to drop the shield for a moment. Buckley regretted the outburst as anything but sage.

See the paragraph beginning "If scoring points gracefully was victory, revealing visceral anger was defeat", here.

Referring to the outburst as "sage advice" is the polar opposite of Buckley's happy warrior style; it is cheesy.

Exactly right. And it's very revealing that Spencer calls it "sage advice" that Buckley both lost his cool and voiced an ugly prejudice.

239 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:10:55am

More insanity:

[Link: www.fuckfrance.com...]

240 Throbert McGee  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:16:26am

re: #238 Charles

Exactly right. And it's very revealing that Spencer calls it "sage advice" that Buckley both lost his cool and voiced an ugly prejudice.

For me, the ugliness was somewhat mitigated by the fact that it was directed towards Gore Vidal.

241 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:20:10am

re: #239 Charles

More of the ignore the core of the photo and focus on the background meme....are these people really that stuck on stupid?

242 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:21:22am

re: #204 Sharmuta

I have been working under the assumption that Spencer has not gone off the deep end or has willfully chosen not to see Pro-Koln accurately. Note the quote above. Someone not willing to dig scrutinize ProKoln could take that on face value and make a mistake.

Let me reiterate my purpose for what I have written over the last days: keep the rhetoric civil (here I have utter failed), determine if Spencer was going to Pro Koln, now Spencer and even ProKoln says he is not going. I cannot stop Spencer from damaging his own brand by bad associations. But I also rationally know Islamists and Leftists love tossing fascism around to discredit the right, the good part, us, and the bad.

I do know this, I asked Spencer to publicly disassociate himself from Pro-Koln and he did so.

The next logical step is find someone Spencer and Charles respects to look into this entire mess and clear things up one and for all.

243 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:23:07am

re: #241 Athos

I used to think I was on the side of intellectual honesty, and facts, where fallacious arguments belonged to the left. Now I realize that I am on the same side I've always been on, but with a lot fewer allies than I had previously thought.

244 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:24:32am

re: #243 Sharmuta

I am in the same boat, and at the same time not only thankful for the allies I have, but also thankful for seeing the true light around former allies.

245 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:25:34am

re: #242 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

I do know this, I asked Spencer to publicly disassociate himself from Pro-Koln and he did so.

Do you mean you asked him not to go, and he agreed? Because he's still publishing excuses for them and attacking Charles. That's not exactly my idea of "disassociating" with them.

246 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:28:27am

re: #242 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

The next logical step is find someone Spencer and Charles respects to look into this entire mess and clear things up one and for all.

Additionally- I doubt this is possible.

247 yma o hyd  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:32:53am

re: #242 Ayatollah Ghilmeini

Sadly, thats not what Spencer did.
He only said he wasn't ging, after all.
You can see uptrhead the several translations from the German prokoln website.
There, they say that Spencer and Geller have withdrawn their written agreement to come.
That means it was not something spencer was thinking about - he'd agreed in writing to attend.
They also say that this is due to the 'incredible, malicious smear campaign by the Left in the USA, and they say that nevertheless Spencer is defending prokoln with vigour.

Now obviously, we don't know who is lying here - but that Spencer continues to defend prokoln is obvious from his article at JW.

One might let it rest there - but what about the continuous, vicious attacks on Charles, not just by Spencer but by his gleeful commentators?
Its not a misunderstanding - it is a feud where anything Charles says is twisted into a personal smear, and where the facts, which anybody can check for themselves by following the links, are totally disregarded.
And that, for me, is intellectual dishonesty.

248 Ayatollah Ghilmeini  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:34:14am

re: #246 Sharmuta

at this point I have to agree with you, this whole thing has blow up way past that.

249 vitoc  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:36:03am

/stating the obvious....

The way Spencer defended Rouhs, by cherrypicking a couple of books Rouhs is selling through his website - those by "Noam Chomsky, Michael Moore, Samuel Huntington, Norman Finkelstein, and Clausewitz", claiming that this in itself proves that Rouhs is not a nazi is beyond dishonest.

Spencer is a man with an excellent knowledge in European history. I have ZERO doubt that he is able to recognice names like Axmann. => [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: 1.nation24.de...]

How come he fails to mention even ONE of these books, of which there are lots and lots? His debating style is fundamentally dishonest. I have enough knowledge about the European far right to be able to see that he is lying.

I used to read Spencer quite a bit in the last years - though considerably less since his contacts to Vlams Belang became obvious - but this is enough now. I really, really have to wonder whether he uses that same style of debating and reading/interpreting sources also when discussing Islam. I suspect more and more (but cannot really tell, because I do not have enough knowledge about that subject) - that this is his general style of operating.

250 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:37:13am

re: #246 Sharmuta

Additionally- I doubt this is possible.

AG - I agree with Sharm on this....I don't think that there is a 3rd party that can do this. But also from my pov, I am really not interested in this.

As far as I am concerned, Robert's brand is irretrievably tainted by his actions not just here, but also across the entire levels of associations, excuses, and attacks related to exposing his connections to these odious fringe groups. He had his opportunity to extricate himself - and instead decides that the focus on anti-jihadism is such that it blinds him to any and all other issues. He has said he could care less with whom he allies or associates with as long as it is anti-jihad. That weakens the anti-jihad movement and plays into the hands of our enemies. I don't need or want an ally like that.

Principles and character are not like a light switch to be turned on / off as convenient.

251 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:40:52am

AG- I'm just so surprised by you. We've seen nothing but attacks on Charles- not the nazis.

Who do you think is a more worthy target?

252 Nick Ferguson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 11:53:43am

re: #243 Sharmuta

Maybe not so much. Maybe its time to *consciously* look around and see who our allies are. We need not be 100% in accord with all opinions, but there are some opinions clearly out of the comfort zone. But the center, which I believe LGF firmly occupies, has a comfortable spectrum in and of itself.

For example, I believe it was Jimmah (and apologies if I am wrong) who said that s/he reads both LGF and Harry's Place. I'm the same. Yes, they are of the left -- social democrats. No, one need not accept all they say. But I'd be far more comfortable with most of them by my side in a fight than either the extreme left (antisemitic, pro-islamofascist, anti-democracy and racist in their lowered expectations of third world peoples) with whom they constantly battle or the extreme right (antisemitic/anti-Muslim, pro-nazi. anti-democracy, and racist in their lowered expectations of third world peoples) crowd with whom LGF is now battling.

I truly believe that the strength and moral high road is in the middle, center-right, center-left, or mixed by issue, as most people are. The trick is to get the center active; sitting on the fence is not centrist, it's either ignorant or cowardly.

Just sayin'.

253 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:08:45pm

re: #252 Nick Ferguson

I do not disagree with your assessment, however- I no longer see left-wing and right-wing. I see the two visions as explained by Thomas Sowell in his book, A Conflict of Visions. The spectrum I now work under is of the constrained vs. unconstrained vision, and both visions can be found in the left-right dichotomy. I think it's a better indicator of one's political philosophy than right-left.

In a nut shell- the constrained vision believes that human nature is flawed and that man will not conform to reason and justice without restrictions that come in the form of both law and social norms. The unconstrained vision believes in what is called "articulated rationality"- that man can be perfected, "that within human limits lies the potentiality for practical social solutions to be accepted rather than imposed."

LGF poster "Syrah" and I have been discussing these visions for the last few weeks, and one of the points we recently discussed was european speech laws vs. American free speech. I pointed out the the speech laws were an unconstrained solution intended to stop Holocaust denial. American free speech has no restrictions, yet Syrah pointed out speech codes. A speech code would be constrained in that you can say what you wish, but social norms may find your speech repugnant and thus society will shun you.

Additionally- I would classify the Constitution as a constrained document, and overall european political philosophy as unconstrained.

For a better idea of this concept, this video will serve:

It's about 40 minutes, but it's well worth the time.

254 Nick Ferguson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:18:13pm

re: #253 Sharmuta

Point well taken re: right/left. I usually (when I'm not lazily using shorthand like right/left -- which in fact is no longer applicable, if it ever was -- my bad) is authoritarian/anti-authoritarian.

I'll have to try to wrap my brain around the rest of what you're articulating, and will get to that video. Thanks for the info.

255 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:23:40pm

It took me a long time to get through to a family member of mine concerning islam. It was finally an issues regarding feminism that caused her to see my point. She went on a reading spree, and now gets enraged when she sees very little girls wearing hijab- she knows their rights as muslims are actually being violated. She is also a pro-science democrat.

There is no way in hell she would consider pamela geller as an ally. She saw robert's facebook "oopsie". These are people who would turn her away for not toeing their ideological line, despite the fact she values her Western society and sees islam as the antithesis of what she holds dear.

I am not the one excluding real allies.

256 Sharmuta  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:25:23pm

re: #254 Nick Ferguson

I totally understand- it's a different sort of dichotomy that requires some study, but I think you'll find it very enlightening. Thanks for taking the time to try to understand. The video will be a big help.

257 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:26:06pm

if there are any NBA fans here, ABC has a classic Celtics/Bulls playoff game with about 3:00 left ... 3 point game ... just sayin'

258 Mardukhai  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:33:36pm

re: #169 Zimriel

Hey! Tom Daschle stood up to the Islamofascists in a big way, and got into considerable trouble for it during the al-Marayati affair ten years ago. The LA Times (may they rot in hell) went ape all over him.

He did the right thing, he got nothing for it but grief, and he deserves respect for standing up to those bastards.

Be nice.

259 Abu Lahab  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 12:47:48pm

I believe Spencer or Geller know well with whom they are dealing and who is inviting them, but as long as there is no swastika engraved on the podium and no photo of Hitler on the wall, they would keep denying that their allies are fascists. No matter what proof and connections are put in front of them.

It has become sickening to listen to these two arguments "guilt by association" and that those fascists are "Pro-Israel".
First, if you are whitewashing such groups, well, that's not exactly guilt by association already. It's a direct connection.

As for the so-called "pro-Israel" attitude of these groups, I think it's merely because of PR necessity and image-whitening that these people decided to adopt such stand. They know it will play well. Even if the polititcal leadership of these groups say we are pro-Israel, do you really believe their memebers are?
It's like the Taliban becoming suddenly pro-women and pro-democracy.
And then having someone defending them because their leader said they were so.
Pathetic!

260 vitoc  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 1:34:51pm

German blog pi-news also says now that both Spencer and Geller cancelled their trip to Cologne. This carries weight, as this blog is VERY close to Pro-Köln.

[Link: www.pi-news.net...]

Needless to say, although Pi-news makes a lot of smoke about their claim that pi-news was pro-constitution and merely defending the German democracy against Islam yaddayadda, they completely fail to mention any of the real points against Pro-Köln. Nothing does the reader learn about nazi connections, Rouhs selling nazi merchandising material and so on and so on. Maybe they aren't all that much interested in defending German democracy against it's enemies, eh?

On another note, if both Geller and Spencer agreed in written form to come to Cologne, and we also assume that they would not have done this without a "speaking fee" or some such, maybe Pro-Köln is in a position to actually sue them for violating a contract? :-)

261 zuckerlilly  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 1:49:03pm

And there is more:

The inaugural meeting of pro-NRW in 2007, the "motherorganisation" of pro-Koeln, which is bankrolled by Guenther Kissel, an old Nazi, friend and supporter of David Irving, was lead by Guenther Schrembs*), who was at that time an active member of the State Executive of the NPD Bavaria and who was at the same time speaker of pro-Munich.

quote:

Geleitet wurde der Parteitag von Rüdiger Schrembs, einem der beiden Sprecher der Gruppe "pro München" und zugleich Landesvorstandsmitglied der NPD Bayern mit der parteioffiziellen Aufgaben-Bezeichnung "Abteilungsleiter z.b.V. Wahlen 08".

As party executives have been elected (among others):

chairman: Markus Beisicht (pro-Koeln)

Markus Wiener (pro-Koeln), Bernd M. Schöppe (pro-Koeln), Manfred Rouhs (pro Koeln)

*) Schrembs was also during his political career a member of: "Nationalrevolutionaeren Aufbauorganisation" (NRAO), Republikaner and the DLVH.

262 guftafs  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 2:08:43pm

So they didn't look "carefully enough" at an event and its organizers. Again. Whom are they trying to fool? You should get those grateful notes of gratitude from Spencer and Geller for once again saving them. (not) Come to think of it, why bother saving them next time? Let them participate.

263 JHW  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 2:14:23pm

I have to say their focus on the provenance of the photo is really immaterial and they should know it. The background of the photos has nothing to do with the demonstrated backgrounds of the two men in question. And the silly argument used both here, by a couple, last night, and at other places, that other, non Nazi or nationalistic books are sold = ergo, the person selling this stuff has no Nazi sympathies is a no go with me.

Years ago, I ordered a copy of Gen. Guderian's memoirs (well known to military historians as an early proponent of use of massed armor in warfare) through an advertisement in Military History magazine, a well known publication. The seller was some innocuous dealer name. Imagine my surprise, then rage, when the book arrived it came along with a catalog from an outfit called Institute for Historical Review. Holocaust deniers of the very worst kind, and every event in world history had a corresponding conspiracy theory book. There were about 4 or 5 titles that you can find in most libraries, reprints of famous ,legitimate military histories. This is one way they expose people to their bastardized theories. Sell legitimate items,known to be in demand for history buffs, as a come-on or teaser for their bile.

I was on their mailing list against my will. Luckily I had a sympathetic postmaster and we put a stop to those mailings. Last night a person mentioned "just paratrooper songs" for sale there. They weren't "just paratrooper songs", i.e., modern German Armed Forces, they were the WW2 Fallschirmjaeger, the Nazi paratroopers, from probably the most heavily Nazified branch of service in the Wehrmacht, outside of the SS. And a lot of other clueless comments were made that I'll pass on for now.

264 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 2:29:26pm

re: #263 JHW

I have to say their focus on the provenance of the photo is really immaterial and they should know it.

The do know it. It's an attempt to muddy the waters, nothing more. And they also know that a large percentage of the people who read their websites are going to swallow the bullshit without ever thinking very much about it, and use it as another excuse to hate me even more than they already do.

265 Irish Rose  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 2:43:33pm

re: #250 Athos


As far as I am concerned, Robert's brand is irretrievably tainted by his actions not just here, but also across the entire levels of associations, excuses, and attacks related to exposing his connections to these odious fringe groups. He had his opportunity to extricate himself - and instead decides that the focus on anti-jihadism is such that it blinds him to any and all other issues. He has said he could care less with whom he allies or associates with as long as it is anti-jihad. That weakens the anti-jihad movement and plays into the hands of our enemies. I don't need or want an ally like that.

Principles and character are not like a light switch to be turned on / off as convenient.

Spot on.

266 SummerSong  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 3:19:55pm

"retracted their written agreements [to attend the conference]"

What the hell? Either they knew what they had agreed to or they agreed without doing any sort of due diligence?

Neither of these scenarios speaks well of Mr. Spencer.

You should be thanking Charles Johnson, Mr. Spencer.

267 Athos  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 4:10:49pm

re: #265 Irish Rose

Thank you, Irish Rose.

I've read the latest post on your blog. I'm sorry to say, as an 'old-timer' on LGF, I knew some of those from '2' who attack you and Charles. They no longer have my respect. They have crossed all lines from respectful disagreement to an unhealthy obsession fueled by ego and an inability to separate ego from argument. Attacking you and your son for your son's service is beyond acceptable. It demonstrates the levels of hate and bankruptcy that motivate these cretins. One should gain reinforcement for their positions and viewpoints based on the lack of qualities demonstrated by those who attack them.

This isn't an echo chamber....but those who have a weakened ego or lack the manners to respectfully disagree are also the ones who have lost the ability to influence and cogently debate.

268 irish rose  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 4:40:27pm

re: #267 Athos

Thanks, Athos.

269 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 4:56:52pm
270 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 5:05:31pm

re: #269 PatFromGermany

First: the article at "fact-fiction.net" is full of outright lies and distortions. I did NOT forge any photographs. And all of the lying about this issue serves only to cover up the FACT that Markus Beisicht of Pro Koln IS associated with Filip DeWinter of the fascist group Vlaams Belang.

Second: you may want to deny that pi-news is a "fascist" blog, but they are also engaged in covering up for the Pro Koln group, and they are very well connected with the Vlaams Belang -- and this is not the first time they have attacked LGF.

If these people don't want to be accused of being "pro-fascist," they shouldn't promote fascists.

271 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 5:13:44pm
272 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 5:16:46pm

re: #271 PatFromGermany

They are LYING about me in that article. Whatever else they have to say is completely without credibility.

273 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 5:18:54pm

Do you seriously believe I'm going to say, "Oh yes, very good points" ... after they lie and accuse me of forging a photograph, when they know very well I did not?

What a complete crock of bullshit.

274 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 6:05:10pm
275 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 6:26:32pm
276 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:02:06pm
277 unpaidbills  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:03:57pm

Nice friends Mr Spencer has allied himself with. Odd as on the surface he was bitterly opposed to the BNP but now he wants to join forces with them?
Schizophrenia me thinks?

278 [deleted]  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:09:57pm
279 Charles Johnson  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:27:14pm

Please do not post links to extremist websites.

280 unpaidbills  Sun, Apr 26, 2009 8:33:45pm

ah, new rules for me sorry about that. but yes you are correct they are extremist and Spencer is in bed with these people.

281 zuckerlilly  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 4:04:28am

re: #269 PatFromGermany

Ahh, you are the one who has undertaken the task to post these lies here as your comrades have agreed at pi-news.

--------------

#8 Andreas.G (26. Apr 2009 12:42) Von Kewil:
[Link: fact-fiction.net...]
Sagt alles!

# kewil meint:
26.04.2009 um 11:13

Hallo,

ich hab keine Zeit mehr. Wer bei Green Footballs kommentarrecht hat, soll bitte den Link kopieren. Wer bei PI schreibt, bitte draufhinweisen, die sollen das auch verlinken und Pro Koeln und PI können auch teile abschreiben. Ich finde, wenn es nicht Englisch ist, kommen die amis gleich gar nicht mit! Danke im voraus, für alle die diesen Link weiterreichen, hat mich über eine Stunde gekostet! Mit Verbessern, verlinken etc.

----------------

Most of the comments at PI are lies, conspiracy theories or sail close to the wind not to be sedition.

Most of the liberal blogs (liberal in terms of of fans of Hayek/Friedman) as well as conservative blogs in Germany have taken PI or fact-fiction (and their off-springs) from their blog rolls long before the first "anti-Islam-Congress" 2008 in Koeln had taken place even long before the infamous "anti-jihad-congress" in Brussels in 2007. It happened about 2005/2006. Already from that point of time PI, f&f etc. were labeled as right-wing-extremist blogs even by liberal/conservative blogs. Charles had zilch to do with this. You have gotten yourself into this as you started to fraternize with right wing extremist groups as VB, the pro-movements etc. and as more and more of the postings became xenophobic and hysterical.

As to the photo shopping:

Charles took the photo from a fascist web site (Patriotisches Forum Sueddeutschland). They on the other hand had taken the photo from the web site "pro-gelsenkirchen" but the domain "pro-gelsenkirchen" is NOT part of the right wing extremist "pro-movement" but the domain owner is the SPD (social democrats) ;-) so from the anti-"pro-movement". Therefore the original right wing extremist "pro-Gelsenkirchen" has to run its web site under the hat of "pro-NRW" because they cannot use the domain "pro-gelsenkirchen". The operators of "Patriotisches Forum Sueddeutschland" were to stupid to recognize this and posted the photo shopped picture on their web site without noticing that the lefties had changed the background with anti-fascist protesters.

Charles had nothing to do with this and: even you and your ilk didn' t catch that the web site "pro-Gelsenkrichen" from which the photo was taken by the "Patriotisches Forum Sueddeutschland" is NOT the right wing extremist "pro-Gelsenkirchen" movement ;-) but a antifascist web site - confusing, isn't it?. (Nicht überall wo "pro-Gelsenkirchen" draufsteht ist auch "pro-Gelsenkirchen" drin ;-) - hast mi?)

282 Sacred Plants  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 4:41:36am

The fauxtography background could be tracked to the international journalist and press photographer Alexander Toker:

Antifa demo in counter Göttingen

Around 4000 people on Saturday in Gottingen 28 10.06 peacefully against the NPD rally with 225 right-wing extremists protesting at the station. Massifs with 6000 police officers. [google translation]

People peacefully requesting their right to wear sunglasses in face of the NPD. The wording of the banner is a reference to East Germany where the numerical proportions between Nazis and Antifa are vice versa (Gottingen is close to Point Alpha).

Mr. Toker´s work has also been used on PI earlier this year. Does this make that blog a suspect?

283 zuckerlilly  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 4:46:43am

re: #282 Sacred Plants


Great! thanxs ;-)

284 Charles Johnson  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 10:03:02am

re: #281 zuckerlilly

Very interesting. Thanks for posting that.

"PatFromGermany" is no longer welcome to post comments at LGF.

285 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 10:09:22am

re: #252 Nick Ferguson

For example, I believe it was Jimmah (and apologies if I am wrong) who said that s/he reads both LGF and Harry's Place.

Yes that was me ( a he, btw).

286 zuckerlilly  Mon, Apr 27, 2009 10:38:53am

re: #284 Charles

you are welcome


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