‘Mancow’ Waterboarded - Lasts 6 Seconds Before Deciding ‘It’s Torture’

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Ranting “conservative” talk show host Erich “Mancow” Muller decided he would prove that waterboarding isn’t torture by undergoing the interrogation method himself.

It didn’t turn out the way he expected: Mancow Waterboarded, Admits It’s Torture.

Listeners had the chance to decide whether Mancow himself or his co-host, Chicago radio personality Pat Cassidy, would undergo the interrogation method during the broadcast.  The voters ultimately decided Mancow would be the one donning the soaked towel and shackles, and at about 8:40 a.m., he entered a small storage room next to his studio that was compared to a “dungeon” by Cassidy.

“The average person can take this for 14 seconds,” Marine Sergeant Clay South answered, adding, “He’s going to wiggle, he’s going to scream, he’s going to wish he never did this.”
 
With a Chicago Fire Department paramedic on hand,  Mancow was placed on a 7-foot long table, his legs were elevated, and his feet were tied up.  
 
Turns out the stunt wasn’t so funny. Witnesses said Muller thrashed on the table, and even instantly threw the toy cow he was holding as his emergency tool to signify when he wanted the experiment to stop. He only lasted 6 or 7 seconds.
 
“It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that’s no joke,”Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child.  “It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back…It was instantaneous…and I don’t want to say this: absolutely torture.”

“I wanted to prove it wasn’t torture,” Mancow said.  “They cut off our heads, we put water on their face…I got voted to do this but I really thought ‘I’m going to laugh this off.’ ”

UPDATE at 5/22/09 3:44:45 pm:

Here’s the video:

Youtube Video

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801 comments
1 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:16:11pm

Didn't he used to be a shock-jock?

2 William  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:16:23pm

ManWuss?

3 philosophus invidius  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:16:47pm

"Mancow in the Morning"

4 tommygum  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:16:59pm

Mancow is a loud tool.

5 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:17:50pm

So it works: Case Closed!

6 Kragar  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:18:18pm

And if it saves even one American life, I say its worth it. No permanent injury, no physical trauma.

7 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:18:33pm

I don't think I could be waterboarded for more than 5 seconds but, then again, I'm not a big Al Qaeda honco who knows how to stop the "ticking bomb."

8 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:19:01pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And if it saves even one American life, I say its worth it. No permanent injury, no physical trauma.

Absolfuckinglutley

9 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:19:01pm

I haven't heard him since he reinvented himself as a "conservative". I'm not sure what views he's pushing but the early research doesn't look good.

10 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:19:35pm

Mancow's a wuss.

11 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:19:41pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Damn straight.

12 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:20:09pm
“I wanted to prove it wasn’t torture,” Mancow said. “They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought ‘I’m going to laugh this off.’ ”

Never heard of him, but if given the choice, I'll take water boarding over head chopping.
Strikes me that there is some analog between precision guided missles and 'torture' techniques that leave no lasting damage. Yeah, it's dirty work we shouldn't do if we can avoid it, but at least we're trying to minimize the collateral damage in each case.

13 Clown Leader in Chief  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:20:30pm

Well the guy obviously has water issues since he says he drowned when he was young. His flash backs may have bothered him, but at least his body parts are all still intact and functioning.

14 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:20:30pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And if it saves even one American life, I say its worth it. No permanent injury, no physical trauma.

Those who get waterboarded get to live. Those who suffer being captives of Jihadis get beheaded or tortured to death.

15 William  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:20:46pm

Here's a random fool lasting 17-18 seconds, and laughing afterward:

16 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:21:27pm

I don't think it's not torture, I just know that we have principles enough to have medical staff on hand. Doubt western soldiers would be granted such a courtesy.

17 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:21:41pm

Waterboarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.

18 Fluffster  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:21:49pm

I think I prefer waterboarding to beheadings.

I would also think it's worth it to save the lives of Non-Americans...

19 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:22:00pm

re: #14 FurryOldGuyJeans
Waterboarding is not equal to having someone hammer nails into your kneecaps.

20 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:22:49pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And if it saves even one American life, I say its worth it. No permanent injury, no physical trauma.

If it saves lives of any non-Jihadi, it's worth the price.

21 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:23:14pm

Honest man. I am a little more impressed with him now.

We know this is a torture method. We know it perfectly well. The only argument is whether, and under what circumstances, we will use it.

22 latingent  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:23:40pm

This complete (total) idiot stopped traffic on the Bay Bridge at rush hour to get a haircut in the #1 lane a few years back. Lost most of his local listeners that day.

23 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #17 Charles

Waterboarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.

Any stress can cause death by stress-induced Heart Attack. Has it under US detention since it was used? And on what has been said is only 3 people? Lets get on with our lives here people!

24 Kragar  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:24:22pm

re: #17 Charles

Waterboarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.

And finding out information regarding a terrorist attack is serious business as well. I'm not arguing this should become a standard interrogation technique for regular everyday use, but if deemed necessary, it should still be an option.

25 HelloDare  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:24:38pm

Hitchens was waterboarded for some magazine. He had it done a second time because he thought he could resists longer. In the article, he said that waterboarding was torture.

It's torture yet he volunteered to have it done again. Something's wrong there. Either with Hitchens or his definition of torture.

26 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:24:52pm

My husband did this in SERE school....was it fun for him ...no....is he cowering in the corner talking to himself ...hell no

No one in his class suffered ill effects either

27 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:25:03pm

call it torture if you want...I really don't care because it's the right thing to do...I support waterboarding, enhanced or otherwise

28 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:26:02pm

I get a snoot full of water when fooling around in a pool. I don't like it. But some jackass will drink chocolate milk through a straw in his nose.

So is this what "waterboarding" is all about, filling your sinuses with water? Isn't that the new wave for stuffy nose, the old yoga treatment of snorting salt-water up your proboscis?

Seems like something you could get used to, once you figure out it's not really drowning. Doesn't make it fun. Unless you're a jackass.

29 Fluffster  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:26:09pm

re: #17 Charles


As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.

You also often have to sign such a waiver before bungee jumping. In today's ligitious society, this means almost nothing.

30 Lincolntf  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:26:31pm

A real test would be if he was waterboarded in order to get info. Like his ATM password and have it cost him a hundred grand. I only personally know one person who went through SERE, and he said the water persuasion totally sucked but that if he had to do it again to graduate he wouldn't hesitate for a second.
I imagine when your only motivation is to stop the waterboarding (as opposed to the motives of the terrorists who want to conceal information unto the point of death), then when you call for it to stop you'd have to call it torture.

31 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:26:43pm

My sympathy meter for terrorists reads zero.

32 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:27:05pm

the Gitmo jihadis have a choice...Danny pearl didn't

33 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:27:33pm

re: #19 pingjockey

Waterboarding is not equal to having someone hammer nails into your kneecaps.

thumbscrews

34 simonml  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:27:37pm

My dad was waterboarded during his military training. He said without a doubt that it is torture. He went on to add that if it saved American lives, it was definitely worth it.

35 Kragar  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:27:40pm

I had a stress induced heart attack back in February due to threats of layoffs, paycuts and high work load. Who do I get to sue for torture?

36 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:01pm

re: #29 Fluffster

You also often have to sign such a waiver before bungee jumping. In today's ligitious society, this means almost nothing.

Have to sign the same thing before taking a stress-echo test at the cardiologist, and that's generally for people known to have weak hearts!

37 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:05pm

Hitchens beat Mancows time! I don't think Mancow even did the full technique.

38 Canoe Train  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:07pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

While I might not care for it, if waterboarding saves lives it is worth it. But it is no comparison to what folks had to undergo at places like Auschwitz, or the Hanoi Hilton.

39 sngnsgt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:23pm

Read this comment on a story about Pelosi not knowing about waterboarding:

Dems ALWAYS seek the "truth" up until it knocks on THEIR door. This woman lies so much she should be referred to as Madam Pelosi-o.

40 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:26pm

re: #26 kawfytawk

My husband did this in SERE school....was it fun for him ...no....is he cowering in the corner talking to himself ...hell no

No one in his class suffered ill effects either

Shhh. Tomorrow's headline:

US Tortures Its Own Troops

41 ProUSA  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:28:36pm

re: #17 Charles

Water boarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.


You have to sign waivers for a lot of things that are not torture to avoid liability. That's not an issue for terrorists -- until the ACLU gets involved in lawsuits to protect the scum.


I agree that water boarding is the harshest of the enhanced interrogation techniques used, but no one died from it. Much different than chopping off body parts, burning, electrical shocks, etc.


I assume the hardened AQ operatives laugh about us arguing about water boarding. It was only used against 3 Gitmo detainees, and it got results that saved lives.

In principle I am against "torture". I just think this technique is on the very low end of that term.

42 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:08pm

re: #25 HelloDare

Hitchens was waterboarded for some magazine. He had it done a second time because he thought he could resists longer. In the article, he said that waterboarding was torture.

It's torture yet he volunteered to have it done again. Something's wrong there. Either with Hitchens or his definition of torture.

That which does not kill you, makes you stronger.

43 HelloDare  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:10pm

‘According to the International Red Cross documents that were recently released, which quote KSM and other detainees describing their interrogations, KSM says he was told by his interrogators that he would not die. With the release of the OLC memos, we know why: one of the red lines that, if crossed, would have made the techniques torture under US law was whether the detainees thought they were in danger of death. That is why they were told specifically they would not die.’

44 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:10pm

re: #28 itellu3times

I get a snoot full of water when fooling around in a pool. I don't like it. But some jackass will drink chocolate milk through a straw in his nose.

So is this what "waterboarding" is all about, filling your sinuses with water? Isn't that the new wave for stuffy nose, the old yoga treatment of snorting salt-water up your proboscis?

Seems like something you could get used to, once you figure out it's not really drowning. Doesn't make it fun. Unless you're a jackass.

I thought we weren't allowed to make those kinds of judgements? Tolerance and all.

45 ProUSA  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:31pm

re: #40 solomonpanting


I strongly agree.

46 FightingBack  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:32pm

Did he give up the goods? Then it should work. Over in 7 seconds, we get the info needed, no one harmed. If they're really worried that they may die, they can give up the info beforehand.

47 DaddyG  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:29:39pm

Well if a radio shock jock says its torture then that settles it. /

I prefer Krauthammers take on the subject. (OT- Drudge is reporting some dufus says Krauthammer doesn't have a good perspective on what he writes about because he's confined to a wheelchair).

48 rusty_armor  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:30:07pm

I care ...

no really!

I am sure if the tables were reversed, the jihadi's would treat its prisoners more humanely. We should at least accord them the same respect that they show for there prisoners.

49 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:30:09pm

The only case in which this could possibly be justified is in a "ticking bomb" scenario. And from what I know about its use at Gitmo, that's how it was used.

50 Outrider  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:30:16pm

re: #26 kawfytawk

My husband did this in SERE school....was it fun for him ...no....is he cowering in the corner talking to himself ...hell no

No one in his class suffered ill effects either

Many of us went through it when we went through SERE training. Uncomfortable? Damn straight. Possible to be stressful? Yes, and that was one of the intents of the exercise.

But, and this is a big but; we knew we were not going to die from it and it would end after a relatively short time. Up until the release of the memos, the terrorist upon which this would be inflicted did NOT know that. And that will make all the difference in the world as far as interrogations go.

51 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:30:21pm

re: #35 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I had a stress induced heart attack back in February due to threats of layoffs, paycuts and high work load. Who do I get to sue for torture?

G-D maybe unless your atheist?

52 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:03pm

re: #40 solomonpanting

Shhh. Tomorrow's headline:

US Tortures Its Own Troops

Nahhh they only have sympathy for our enemies

53 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:12pm

re: #47 DaddyG

Well if a radio shock jock says its torture then that settles it. /

I prefer Krauthammers take on the subject. (OT- Drudge is reporting some dufus says Krauthammer doesn't have a good perspective on what he writes about because he's confined to a wheelchair).

Krauthammer agrees, by the way, that this kind of technique should ONLY be used in a last resort situation.

54 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:15pm

anyway it's all for naught now...the CIA will have to go to plan B

[Link: www.imeem.com...]

55 pingjockey  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:30pm

re: #48 rusty_armor
Did you forget your sarcasm tag?

56 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:50pm

re: #32 albusteve

the Gitmo jihadis have a choice...Danny pearl didn't

But, but, its really same

/

57 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:31:53pm

re: #43 HelloDare

‘According to the International Red Cross documents that were recently released, which quote KSM and other detainees describing their interrogations, KSM says he was told by his interrogators that he would not die. With the release of the OLC memos, we know why: one of the red lines that, if crossed, would have made the techniques torture under US law was whether the detainees thought they were in danger of death. That is why they were told specifically they would not die.’

Of course, that's ridiculous. The point of real torture is often information, not death. Heck, the giving of information can mark the stool pigeon for death when he's released.

This whole subject is completely dominated by over-sensitivity and absurd posturing.

58 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:32:25pm

re: #50 Outrider

Up until the release of the memos, the terrorist upon which this would be inflicted did NOT know that. And that will make all the difference in the world as far as interrogations go.

You got that right...and it just ticks me off to no end

59 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:32:35pm

re: #49 Charles

The only case in which this could possibly be justified is in a "ticking bomb" scenario. And from what I know about its use at Gitmo, that's how it was used.

What if the bomb isn't ticking yet, but they know where the bomb-makers are working and won't say anything?

60 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:32:44pm

re: #41 ProUSA

You have to sign waivers for a lot of things that are not torture to avoid liability. That's not an issue for terrorists -- until the ACLU gets involved in lawsuits to protect the scum.

I agree that water boarding is the harshest of the enhanced interrogation techniques used, but no one died from it. Much different than chopping off body parts, burning, electrical shocks, etc.

I assume the hardened AQ operatives laugh about us arguing about water boarding. It was only used against 3 Gitmo detainees, and it got results that saved lives.

In principle I am against "torture". I just think this technique is on the very low end of that term.

why?...what do you suggest is the alternative?

61 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:32:54pm

Well, fine, if someone wishes to allege, "It's Torture!" Then, let the lawsuits begin!

this, btw, also doesn't mean, as Dick Cheney pointed out yesterday that the U.S. will never, ever waterboard again. Cheney has noted: "This might explain why President Obama has reserved unto himself the right to order the use of enhanced interrogation should he deem it appropriate. What value remains to that authority is debatable, given that the enemy now knows exactly what interrogation methods to train against, and which ones not to worry about. Yet having reserved for himself the authority to order enhanced interrogation after an emergency, you would think that President Obama would be less disdainful of what his predecessor authorized after 9/11. It's almost gone unnoticed that the president has retained the power to order the same methods in the same circumstances. When they talk about interrogations, he and his administration speak as if they have resolved some great moral dilemma in how to extract critical information from terrorists. Instead they have put the decision off, while assigning a presumption of moral superiority to any decision they make in the future."

I believe the same can be said with the even morally worse and more disgusting practice of "renditions." That is, shipping suspects off to foreign states which have zero qualms about using the most brutal methods of "interrogation" imaginable.

And as noted in the Commentary piece linked to yesterday, "waterboarding" was the ultimate tactic used; used on only three terrorists (the worse of the worst); and it set an upper limit, beyond which no one could go.

62 Fluffster  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:33:30pm

re: #53 Charles

Krauthammer agrees, by the way, that this kind of technique should ONLY be used in a last resort situation.

It appears that most of us agree, then!

It's an ugly, unpleasant thing to do but a damn sight better than watching scores of innocents die.

63 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:34:12pm

re: #43 HelloDare

‘According to the International Red Cross documents that were recently released, which quote KSM and other detainees describing their interrogations, KSM says he was told by his interrogators that he would not die. With the release of the OLC memos, we know why: one of the red lines that, if crossed, would have made the techniques torture under US law was whether the detainees thought they were in danger of death. That is why they were told specifically they would not die.’

gotta love the folks who have to worry about the lawyers.

64 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:34:19pm

re: #59 nikis-knight

What if the bomb isn't ticking yet, but they know where the bomb-makers are working and won't say anything?

That was apparently the case regarding a future planned attack on Los Angeles.

65 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:34:59pm

Lord have mercy. Steve Harrigan (who has an awesome amount of guts) on Fox was waterboarded and said he thought it was a good method to use because it gets you to talk but you recover completely in minutes.

66 E.T.  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:35:10pm

Can't he hold his breath for more than 5 seconds ....

67 simonml  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:35:20pm

re: #61 J.S.

Well, fine, if someone wishes to allege, "It's Torture!" Then, let the lawsuits begin!

this, btw, also doesn't mean, as Dick Cheney pointed out yesterday that the U.S. will never, ever waterboard again. Cheney has noted: "This might explain why President Obama has reserved unto himself the right to order the use of enhanced interrogation should he deem it appropriate. What value remains to that authority is debatable, given that the enemy now knows exactly what interrogation methods to train against, and which ones not to worry about. Yet having reserved for himself the authority to order enhanced interrogation after an emergency, you would think that President Obama would be less disdainful of what his predecessor authorized after 9/11. It's almost gone unnoticed that the president has retained the power to order the same methods in the same circumstances. When they talk about interrogations, he and his administration speak as if they have resolved some great moral dilemma in how to extract critical information from terrorists. Instead they have put the decision off, while assigning a presumption of moral superiority to any decision they make in the future."

I believe the same can be said with the even morally worse and more disgusting practice of "renditions." That is, shipping suspects off to foreign states which have zero qualms about using the most brutal methods of "interrogation" imaginable.

And as noted in the Commentary piece linked to yesterday, "waterboarding" was the ultimate tactic used; used on only three terrorists (the worse of the worst); and it set an upper limit, beyond which no one could go.

I agree with your comment. Very cogent. But I have a question: Can you "train against" waterboarding?

68 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:35:23pm

now we have to define 'ticking'....good grief

69 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:35:34pm

re: #60 albusteve

why?...what do you suggest is the alternative?

Force them to watch "Gray's Anatomy."

/

70 Kragar  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:06pm

re: #68 albusteve

now we have to define 'ticking'....good grief

Jihadi is breathing?

/

71 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:07pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Force them to watch "Gray's Anatomy."

/

Or the View. ;)

72 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:07pm

re: #69 Gus 802

Force them to watch "Gray's Anatomy."

/

NOOOOOO!.....ABDULLAH DID IT!

73 Pickles  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:08pm

I have never thought it was a good idea to try and float that this is not torture. I think Krauthammer's reasoning is much more solid: It is torture, and sometimes it is necessary and only a limited basis and in extreme circumstances. I know that gets us into trouble, but I think it's the truth rather than trying to parse it into something it isn't.

74 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:17pm

re: #55 pingjockey

Did you forget your sarcasm tag?

he may just be a bit quixotic

75 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:17pm
76 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:45pm

After watching, with a huge lump in my throat, men and women jump 70+ stories rather than burn alive....hell yeah I would waterboard to prevent that from ever happening again...I wouldn't need a damn lawyer sitting there with a stopwatch

77 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:49pm

re: #71 DEZes

Or the View. ;)

Put them in a room with Joy Behar.

78 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:36:56pm

re: #67 simonml

We do; whether or not it is effective training is a good question that can't be answered without torturous studies.

79 Fluffster  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:37:14pm

re: #73 Pickles

I have never thought it was a good idea to try and float that this is not torture. I think Krauthammer's reasoning is much more solid: It is torture, and sometimes it is necessary and only a limited basis and in extreme circumstances. I know that gets us into trouble, but I think it's the truth rather than trying to parse it into something it isn't.

How about calling it 'torturette'? :)

80 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:37:16pm

Vietnam POWS were murdered by their communist captors--beaten to death.
Fed gruel, rotten pumpkin soup, left to die of dysintery, infections, wounds.

Others were hung with their arms tied behind their back, until their arms popped out of their shoulder sockets (McCain's problem).

Has anyone sued the Vietcong for violating Geneva Conventions or mistreating hundreds or thousands of Americans held for up to 9 years under these conditions?

My sympathy meter for self described jihadists bent on mass murder & beheadings of Westerners is zero.

Roxana Saberi just released from Iran's kangaroo court, might tell us something about prison conditions & "human rights" in the Caliphate.

81 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:37:21pm

re: #68 albusteve

now we have to define 'ticking'....good grief

spotted ticking?

82 Lincolntf  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:37:45pm

re: #79 Fluffster

Underwater contingency operation?

83 Noam Sayin'  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:38:38pm

Seems to me, something one would volunteer to have done to oneself doesn't constitute torture.

You ever hear of someone volunteering to have someone take a 1/16" drill to his collarbone?

84 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:38:44pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Put them in a room with Joy Behar.

Im gonna let it drop, cause we all no the real torture would Helen Thomas in the .....

85 pat  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:38:55pm

Yeah. It works.

86 simonml  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:00pm

re: #78 nikis-knight

We do; whether or not it is effective training is a good question that can't be answered without torturous studies.

"My SERE training was torture!" -Poor soldier being trained to resist waterboarding

87 Eowyn2  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:01pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Put them in a room with Joy Behar.


give me the board, give me the board, give me the board.
both the interrogator and i will survive.
it couldnt happen with behar.
I'd be stark staring mad in no time

88 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:07pm

re: #84 DEZes

Im gonna let it drop, cause we all no the real torture would Helen Thomas in the .....

Know = no
pimf

89 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:08pm

re: #67 simonml

I agree with your comment. Very cogent. But I have a question: Can you "train against" waterboarding?

* * * * *
Those of us who do "nasal lavage" with saltwater up our noses for our sinuses, do have to learn not to inhale at the wrong time.

90 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:16pm

re: #83 Noam Sayin'

Seems to me, something one would volunteer to have done to oneself doesn't constitute torture.

You ever hear of someone volunteering to have someone take a 1/16" drill to his collarbone?

or volunteering to have their head sawed off with a dull blade?

91 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:20pm

I think waterboarding is torture. Still more humane than what the barbarians would do.

I have a problem with things like sleep depravation being called torture. If that's the case, than newborns are torturers.

92 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:39:27pm

oh, not that kind of "waterboarding"............mancow's not a wuss...........

93 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:40:11pm

I heard from people who really have been tortured (firsthand). I saw the cigarette burn-marks and strange walks caused by the horrific treatments they have had to endure. Heard their stories of being raped (men - mind you) and a guy doesn't easily admit that he has been abused like that.
They were treated like that in prisons of Bangladesh, Peru, Turkey, Iran and Bolivia. Their anguish will probably last until they die.
Waterboarding as bad as it may be in the instant it is being applied will not leave these psychological and physical scars that I have seen on those poor souls.

94 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:40:30pm

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

95 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:40:38pm

re: #84 DEZes

Im gonna let it drop, cause we all know the real torture would Helen Thomas in the .....

Yikes. That would be something.

96 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:40:54pm

re: #39 sngnsgt

This woman lies so much she should be referred to as Madam Pelosi-o.


She has NO relation to spaghetti-o's!
/Keep that in mind...

97 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:41:01pm

re: #67 simonml

Very, very interesting question. And, how much do you want to bet that there will be those "out there" who will be doing precisely that? (At Gitmo, according to the "terror memos", doctors were standing by -- to resuscitate if necessary.) (btw, personally, I actually feel that using tasers multiple times on "excited" suspects -- as is done in Canada and which has led to deaths -- is extremely troubling and, frankly, I think it's a practice which needs to be examined, and used only, only as a last, final resort -- not "routine.")

98 simonml  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:41:30pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

Or maybe whether it is extremely justified in a few cases.

99 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:41:34pm

when I read the future in the omelette before me, and the omelette says American lives are saved, I consider it a very decent breakfast

100 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:42:49pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

agreed

101 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:43:06pm

re: #98 simonml

Or maybe whether it is extremely justified in a few cases.

* * * * *
In one case, waterboarding saved the City of Los Angeles, because the jihadi admitted there was a plot against Los Angeles.

102 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:43:19pm

forcing someone to panic is not torture to me....I panic when I see a mouse, go on a rollercoaster, and yes, drive over a bridge.....whatever....as for me...I am glad it saved lives

103 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:43:24pm
104 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:43:29pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

True and when someone is trying to kill me and mine, it triggers my "fight" reflex and all options are on the table. But that's just me.

105 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:44:33pm

re: #68 albusteve

now we have to define 'ticking'....good grief

From the Firesign Theatre, Tail of the Giant Rat of Sumatra:
"Oh, look, it's ticking!"
"No; it HAS ticks!"
"Then we must flea!"

106 nnw59  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:00pm

No one subjected to beheading was able to comment on it afterward.

107 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:02pm

re: #102 kawfytawk

forcing someone to panic is not torture to me....I panic when I see a mouse, go on a rollercoaster, and yes, drive over a bridge.....whatever....as for me...I am glad it saved lives

rollycoasters are one of the ten most profound inventions ever devised...

108 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:09pm

Torture is one of those things that we would want to believe that we would never use or never have use. Unfortunately, the world is not so accommodating.

It is the kind of think we should flinch at and be made sick by the thought of it, but we should also be fearful of being so unsure of our own right to exist that we would forswear it in all circumstances.

It would be monstrous to be easy and caviler with its use. It would be foolhardy to believe that we would never be confronted with instances where its use could be justified.

That this subject is now a political football risks our being able to ever use it. The danger is real. The world is not a safe place.

109 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:18pm

and frankly...that's the risk you take when your occupation is a Terrorist

110 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:45pm

Video:

111 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:48pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

Why? Because it induces panic? Triggers primal instincts? Is beyond one's control? Triggers reflexes? You haven't really given a useable definition before you say "...that's why..."

I'm not troubled by any kind of emotional pain or panic for the people that plan 9-11 or like attacks. Especially if it means stopping future ones.
I don't like to imagine the toll that administering this takes on our agents, though.

112 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:45:48pm
113 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:46:34pm

One never knows for sure with secret stuff, but to me, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is the posterboy for waterboarding being useful in some cases.

How the CIA Broke the 9/11 Attacks Mastermind

The al Qaeda mastermind, known as KSM, stubbornly held out for about two minutes -- far longer than any of the other "high-value" terror targets who were subjected to the technique, the harshest from a list of six techniques approved for use by the CIA and Bush administration lawyers, sources said.

Then KSM started talking, in idiomatic English he learned as a high school foreign exchange student and polished at a North Carolina college in the 1980s, sources said.

"It was an extraordinary amount of time for him to hold out," one former CIA officer told ABCNews.com. "A red-headed female supervisor was in the room when he was being water-boarded. It was humiliating to him. So he held out."

"Then he started talking, and he never stopped," this former officer said. KSM was never water-boarded again, and in hours and hours of conversation with his interrogators, often over a cup of tea, he poured out his soul and the murderous deeds he committed.

114 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:46:52pm

re: #103 vagabond trader

THE Christopher Hitchens,THE anti Zionist self loathing ATHEIST Jew, Christopher Hitchens? I would have paid good money to observe that. Hell, being an entrepreneurial Jew myself, I may have even sold tickets.

Hitchens is not a Jew, AFAIK

115 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:47:18pm

re: #111 nikis-knight

Why? Because it induces panic? Triggers primal instincts? Is beyond one's control? Triggers reflexes? You haven't really given a useable definition before you say "...that's why..."

I'm not troubled by any kind of emotional pain or panic for the people that plan 9-11 or like attacks. Especially if it means stopping future ones.
I don't like to imagine the toll that administering this takes on our agents, though.

When it was used against US soldiers in Vietnam and WWII, we had absolutely no hesitation about labeling it "torture," by the way.

116 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:47:43pm

I've spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding -- the version being undertaken here, at least -- is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied. So it's a conundrum, in some ways.

117 researchok  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:47:54pm

re: #114 Alouette

Hitchens is not a Jew, AFAIK

Hitchens is a lapsed Catholic.

118 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:48:05pm

re: #115 Charles

So what we call torture makes it torture? How is that response clarifying your definition?

119 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:48:38pm

re: #94 Charles

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.


I have no doubt it's very unpleasant but I'm not necessarily sold on the torture thing. I agreed that it should be reserved to very special cases but the whole point of these interrogations is to make them as unpleasant as possible. Room temperature, loud music, sleep deprivation and waterboarding should be allowed in cases extreme enough. There is a lot of room for personal opinion on where the "tourture" line is.

120 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:48:43pm

re: #103 vagabond trader

THE Christopher Hitchens,THE anti Zionist self loathing ATHEIST Jew, Christopher Hitchens? I would have paid good money to observe that. Hell, being an entrepreneurial Jew myself, I may have even sold tickets.

I accept cash only.

121 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:48:59pm

re: #114 Alouette

Hitchens is not a Jew, AFAIK

He sorta is. Sorta.

122 clgood  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:49:15pm

I'm ready to believe him that it's torture. Christopher Hitchens came to the same conclusion. I have enough of a drowning phobia to bet that I'd last under seven seconds myself.

But there's torture, and there's torture. This fits a dictionary definition of causing extreme pain or discomfort. But it does not do lasting physical injury. (Yes, I know it could kill someone with a bad heart, or if improperly administered. But then we're not talking torture, but killing.)

Nothing, so far, makes me sorry we've used it on Islamofascist terrorists.

123 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:49:43pm

Imagine the panic those passengers in the planes felt. They had quite a lot of time to fear their coming death. Imagine the panic those people in the towers felt when they realized their was no way out.

Never again.

124 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:49:53pm
125 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:50:10pm

Don't we train our service people to resist interigations by water boarding them and the like in SERE school? I have no problem applying the same treatment with a little more vigor to high value terrorists.

126 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:50:15pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

Cheney said that it prevented terror attacks.

127 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:50:16pm

No one should be under any delusion this is merely "uncomfortable" - a mammogram is "uncomfortable". Based on what Mr. Armywife has said (and yes, he has been waterboarded for more than 6 seconds), it's terrifying - but still on this side of torture. This method wasn't the first tool used, either. It was used extremely rarely for a reason.

128 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:50:27pm

re: #116 Cognito

I've spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding -- the version being undertaken here, at least -- is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied. So it's a conundrum, in some ways.

it is not a conundrum unless you need it to be...

129 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:50:37pm
130 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:14pm

re: #115 Charles

touche.

131 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:22pm

re: #103 vagabond trader

THE Christopher Hitchens,THE anti Zionist self loathing ATHEIST Jew, Christopher Hitchens? I would have paid good money to observe that. Hell, being an entrepreneurial Jew myself, I may have even sold tickets.

Is that like ATHEIST Darwinist?

132 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:26pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

It's a very broad word, indeed, and there are very very serious acts at the other end of the spectrum. I'm more comfortable coming up with new words to describe momentary, if extreme, discomfort than grouping them in with rape and dismemberment.

133 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:33pm

re: #31 DEZes

My sympathy meter for terrorists reads zero.

That high?

134 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:44pm

re: #77 Gus 802

Put them in a room with Joy Behar.

It's not really torture unless the door is locked and you don't have the key.

She drives me bananas.

135 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:51:50pm

re: #128 albusteve

it is not a conundrum unless you need it to be...

In light of the many and divergent opinions we see here, it clearly is.

136 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:52:33pm

re: #134 Catttt

It's not really torture unless the door is locked and you don't have the key.

She drives me bananas.

Right. All she has to do is count from 1 to 1000. Just hearing her voice should be enough.

137 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:52:47pm

re: #133 Kosh's Shadow

That high?

Heh.

138 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:52:53pm

re: #135 Cognito

In light of the many and divergent opinions we see here, it clearly is.

it's panic inducing torture and it's effective...there is no conundrum about that

139 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:53:02pm

re: #41 ProUSA

I assume the hardened AQ operatives laugh about us arguing about water boarding.

I expect they're also laughing at KSM for letting it get to him.

Expect AQ to be training its operatives on how to resist this technique now that they know it's the worst thing we'll ever let ourselves do. Thanks, Democrats!

140 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:53:05pm

re: #71 DEZes

Or the View. ;)

Or that one about plastic surgeons. I accidentally watched that for a few minutes once.

141 researchok  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:53:22pm

re: #53 Charles

Krauthammer agrees, by the way, that this kind of technique should ONLY be used in a last resort situation.

Krauthammer is in good company. Liberal Alan Dershowitz makes the same arguments- ticking bombs, last resort, etc. He even wrote a book on the subject, Why Terrorism Works, in which he makes the case for the limited use of torture.

142 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:53:29pm

re: #43 HelloDare

‘According to the International Red Cross documents that were recently released, which quote KSM and other detainees describing their interrogations, KSM says he was told by his interrogators that he would not die. With the release of the OLC memos, we know why: one of the red lines that, if crossed, would have made the techniques torture under US law was whether the detainees thought they were in danger of death. That is why they were told specifically they would not die.’

Which may be a big reason as to why they had to do the application hundreds of times........ya think?
/

143 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:53:36pm

In other words, I want a word for acts that would not ever be justified, and this can be, if not readily.

144 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:09pm

re: #108 Syrah

Torture is one of those things that we would want to believe that we would never use or never have use. Unfortunately, the world is not so accommodating.

It is the kind of think we should flinch at and be made sick by the thought of it, but we should also be fearful of being so unsure of our own right to exist that we would forswear it in all circumstances.

It would be monstrous to be easy and caviler with its use. It would be foolhardy to believe that we would never be confronted with instances where its use could be justified.

That this subject is now a political football risks our being able to ever use it. The danger is real. The world is not a safe place.

As always, my friend, you state your point wonderfully. Being nice to terrorists at all times smacks of the unconstrained and gains us nothing.

145 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:13pm

re: #143 nikis-knight

In other words, I want a word for acts that would not ever be justified, and this can be, if not readily.

make one up...that's how you do it

146 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:16pm

Now, The Apparatus, that's torture.

147 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:23pm

re: #135 Cognito

In light of the many and divergent opinions we see here, it clearly is.

Some of us may be more "enthusiastic" and outspoken about water boarding, but until certain people showed up here, I didn't see to much,many, or divergent views?

148 Drider  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:30pm

Mancow just went through an enhanced interrogation technique, he would say the same thing had he been forced to stand in a weird position or had a few open handed slaps.

The fact is that his life was not in danger, he will have no permanent effects and proved to the rest of the world how effective such a technique is.

149 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:54:30pm
150 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:55:08pm

re: #53 Charles

Krauthammer agrees, by the way, that this kind of technique should ONLY be used in a last resort situation.

I don't know if I'd call Gitmo a resort. Granted the weather is nice most of the time but..............oh, never mind.
/

151 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:55:41pm

re: #116 Cognito

Yes, there does seem to be a few different versions. When they did Hitch they covered his mouth.

152 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:56:04pm

re: #150 LGoPs

I don't know if I'd call Gitmo a resort. Granted the weather is nice most of the time but..............oh, never mind.
/

Hey they got air conditioners?

153 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:56:05pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

There is a lot of room for personal opinion on where the "tourture" line is.

This is true. For me it's Morrissey, but others like his music.

154 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:56:31pm

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Yes, there does seem to be a few different versions. When they did Hitch they covered his mouth.

There are some really, really horrific versions.

155 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:56:39pm
156 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:56:56pm

re: #145 albusteve

make one up...that's how you do it

Except that we already have a word for waterboarding, harsh interrogation techniques, and I don't think it overlaps with the category that other things called torture should be in.
But I haven't experienced it. Unlike being fed into a shredder, I would consider having it done to me, despite not likeing anything shoved up my nose, to have a better understanding.

157 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:57:10pm

re: #116 Cognito

I've spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding -- the version being undertaken here, at least -- is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied. So it's a conundrum, in some ways.

what the hell is this supposed to mean?....you sound like a democrat...yes it is only harsh when it's applies....how profound!

158 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:57:42pm

re: #157 albusteve

what the hell is this supposed to mean?....you sound like a democrat...yes it is only harsh when it's applies....how profound!

Somethings are harsh long after, though. That seems to be his point.

159 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:12pm

re: #119 Killgore Trout

I have no doubt it's very unpleasant but I'm not necessarily sold on the torture thing. I agreed that it should be reserved to very special cases but the whole point of these interrogations is to make them as unpleasant as possible. Room temperature, loud music, sleep deprivation and waterboarding should be allowed in cases extreme enough. There is a lot of room for personal opinion on where the "tourture" line is.

My criteria involves inventory of your major body parts at the end of the process. If they're still attached and in working order, probably not torture.
/

160 hazzyday  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:13pm
161 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:15pm

re: #157 albusteve

what the hell is this supposed to mean?....you sound like a democrat...yes it is only harsh when it's applies....how profound!

Don't be a moron.

I'll assume you're not one, and that you did indeed understand my post, and so that you're just pretending otherwise for the fun of it.

162 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:24pm

re: #156 nikis-knight

Except that we already have a word for waterboarding, harsh interrogation techniques, and I don't think it overlaps with the category that other things called torture should be in.
But I haven't experienced it. Unlike being fed into a shredder, I would consider having it done to me, despite not likeing anything shoved up my nose, to have a better understanding.

splitting hairs won't change anything...it is what it is

163 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:39pm

I remember a Luis Buñuel movie back in the 70s that was surreal (duh) and strange, but AFTER I saw it my thought was he was making a point about torture. People were tortured in REALLY strange ways, but for absolutely no reason. But is there a good reason? I think he was saying reason or no reason, it is still what it is. Maybe (you never know with Luis Buñuel, or at least I never do for sure).

Now, the CIA thought it had good reason to waterboard these honchos. However, as Charles mentions, the Vietcong waterboarded Americans. I'll bet you the Vietcong thought they had good reason.

I still feel that the CIA did the right thing, but it is a choice - you can't just say "no it is not torture, because we had a good reason."

164 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:58:59pm
165 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:59:00pm

I submit that we do not have to make this legal to have it available in the extreme situations (ie "ticking bomb" scenarios) where its use would be justified. I think it could be covered by the president's absolute power of pardons and paroles. If the case isn't extreme enough for the POTUS to justify a pre-emptive pardon for those involved, then it isn't extreme enough to justify the method.

166 nikis-knight  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:59:19pm

re: #162 albusteve

splitting hairs won't change anything...it is what it is

Oh, okay, thanks. It's clearer now.

167 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:59:20pm

From Wikipedia:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Scroll down to the graphic of countries that have ratified the treaty against torture. Several of the countries that have not ratified it are Muslim-run.

168 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:59:33pm

re: #153 Sharmuta

This is true. For me it's Morrissey, but others like his music.

Bigmouth strikes again!

/now you know how Joan of Arc felt

169 cardiacmont  Fri, May 22, 2009 3:59:58pm

It wasn't torture.

He wished it would end.

Torture makes you wish for the end.

170 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:00:03pm

I understand this is a gray area. My impression is when the reality of what we were really up against after 911, set in, it was a different ball game than what we have been fighting 50 years prior to that.

Can it be torture? I'm sure some arguments support it. Other aspects can defend it against it being torture. Semantics for the lawyers to fight over.

I guess if they used this in the extreme scenario it is reserved for, I say do it yesterday. By virtue of the fact this enemy comes to the game expecting to martyr themselves, I don't know how much the thought of water boarding is a deterrent in the big scheme of things when it all boils down.

Ultimately, it is rich that Obama ran on a platform of openly accusing a war-time President on the way out, and not running against him, of employing torture, and playing to the lowest common denominator of his base. He now reserves the right of water-boarding at his own discretion.

Blatant contradiction. I hate that.

Ticking time bomb? Hell, I'll pour the g-d damn water.

171 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:00:38pm

re: #161 Cognito

Don't be a moron.

I'll assume you're not one, and that you did indeed understand my post, and so that you're just pretending otherwise for the fun of it.

lame insults don't impress me at all...it's harsh when it's used so it's a conundrum?....wtf does that mean?...it's not harsh when not used?

172 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:00:38pm

re: #108 Syrah

Torture is one of those things that we would want to believe that we would never use or never have use. Unfortunately, the world is not so accommodating.

It is the kind of think we should flinch at and be made sick by the thought of it, but we should also be fearful of being so unsure of our own right to exist that we would forswear it in all circumstances.

It would be monstrous to be easy and caviler with its use. It would be foolhardy to believe that we would never be confronted with instances where its use could be justified.

That this subject is now a political football risks our being able to ever use it. The danger is real. The world is not a safe place.

Well said. I wish you'd written Obama's speech.

173 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:00:43pm

Let's see this guy volunteer to to get kicked in the balls, have his fingers broken and cigerettes put out in his back.

174 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:18pm

How shall we get really bad people to tell their plans to kill us?

175 Digital Display  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:22pm

Good Evening Dear lizards!
How is everyone tonight?

176 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:33pm

re: #171 albusteve

Obviously I assumed wrong.

177 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:46pm

The very fact that he volunteered to have this procedure done proves that it's not torture.

178 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:53pm

re: #155 vagabond trader

He has Jewish ancestors, so what? He's still a virulent hater of certain nation states.

179 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:01:58pm

re: #174 debutaunt

How shall we get really bad people to tell their plans to kill us?

Ask them really nicely.

180 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:02:00pm

re: #166 nikis-knight

Oh, okay, thanks. It's clearer now.

what's unclear?...waterboarding is torture...there are degrees of severity of torture...call it whatever you want to

181 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:02:08pm

re: #174 debutaunt

How shall we get really bad people to tell their plans to kill us?

Barring foolproof truth serum or mindreaders, maybe waterboarding?

182 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:02:47pm

re: #173 Ringo the Gringo

Let's see this guy volunteer to to get kicked in the balls, have his fingers broken and cigerettes put out in his back.

Refer to my: # 93 callahan23
for more additions to your list.

183 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:04pm

re: #159 LGoPs

I can think of a few things that fit your criteria can could still be considered torture. Waterboarding does work, it works quickly and is relatively safe if done correctly. We aren't doing this out of spite or revenge. It does produce valuable intelligence and it does it quickly. We aren't dealing with people who abide by the Geneva Convention or any of the "normal" rules of warfare. I don't think it should be removed from our arsenal of tools.

184 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:16pm

re: #174 debutaunt

How shall we get really bad people to tell their plans to kill us?

There are no really bad people. Only good folks victimized by various root causes.
////

185 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:30pm

re: #176 Cognito

Obviously I assumed wrong.

instead of trying to insult me why don't you just explain your doubletalk?...it's easy....start by saying "what I meant was", or something to that effect

186 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:57pm

re: #175 HoosierHoops

Good Evening Dear lizards!
How is everyone tonight?

{HoosierHoops} how was your concert.
Nice to see you back.

187 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:59pm

re: #173 Ringo the Gringo

Let's see this guy volunteer to to get kicked in the balls, have his fingers broken and cigerettes put out in his back.

Sounds like an episode - or half an episode - of 24.

188 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:03:59pm

re: #174 debutaunt

Use...sarcasm! Use all the tricks-- dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and satire. Show no mercy//

189 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:01pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

I can think of a few things that fit your criteria can could still be considered torture. Waterboarding does work, it works quickly and is relatively safe if done correctly. We aren't doing this out of spite or revenge. It does produce valuable intelligence and it does it quickly. We aren't dealing with people who abide by the Geneva Convention or any of the "normal" rules of warfare. I don't think it should be removed from our arsenal of tools.

I need a drink.
Your spot on.

190 Outrider  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:05pm

re: #127 ArmyWife

No one should be under any delusion this is merely "uncomfortable" - a mammogram is "uncomfortable". Based on what Mr. Armywife has said (and yes, he has been waterboarded for more than 6 seconds), it's terrifying - but still on this side of torture. This method wasn't the first tool used, either. It was used extremely rarely for a reason.

I referred to it as "uncomfortable" and will maintain that. Especially compared to much of the training we went through which was far more painful and did leave lasting injuries.

Is it torture? Of course it is, but I am convinced anything which produces discomfort for any length of time or induces strong feelings of impending doom would be considered torture. How long would it take to break if a feather was constantly lightly brushed against your insole or inner thigh for hours and hours on end? Amusing perhaps at first... but after hours and hours?

The bottom line is in the world we live in, drastic and extreme measures are sometimes called for in the court of last resort. Our humanity is still there if we are worried and concerned about the act and hesitant about using it.

191 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:14pm

re: #161 Cognito

Don't be a moron.

I'll assume you're not one, and that you did indeed understand my post, and so that you're just pretending otherwise for the fun of it.

Cognito, please, no name-calling! Could you state, though, your education and training in torture techniques so we can be assured of your veracity?

192 HC4BO  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:35pm

Would Mancow admit to ANYTHING whilst undergoing water-boarding ... ?


THAT should be the basis of the argument when people claim water-boarding works ...

193 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:41pm

re: #189 DEZes

Cheers.

194 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:04:55pm

re: #188 calcajun

Use...sarcasm! Use all the tricks-- dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and satire. Show no mercy//

You bastard! Stop!

195 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:09pm

re: #184 solomonpanting

There are no really bad people. Only good folks victimized by various root causes.
////

It's the potatoes' fault. I KNEW it! /

196 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:13pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

Charles -

Per my statement above - OF COURSE IT IS TORTURE - then we go back to the Alan Dershowitz "Ticking Time Bomb" analogy with its corollary of "Warrant For Torture."
When you are the President of the US, committing a "small atrocity" to prevent a "Big One" goes with the territory.
Lincoln suspended Habeus Corpus ("The Great Writ") for the duration of the Civil War - AND - hanged 50+ "Native Americans" - In Minnesota - in ONE DAY - a move meant to frighten Confederates as well as "Native Americans."
And FDR with the Complicity of EARL WARREN "Excluded" Nisei-Americans form California, along with seizing the fishing boat of Joltin' Joe DiMaggio's Father, in San Francisco Harbor, as his citizenship was Italian (Enemy Alien at the Time.)
hese are things that the USA has DONE under wartime conditions. There is NO REFUTING IT.
The question is - Is the Torah, The New Testament, or the US Constitution a "Suicide Pact?" - I think NOT. What say ye?

-S-

197 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:19pm

re: #173 Ringo the Gringo

Let's see this guy volunteer to to get kicked in the balls, have his fingers broken and cigerettes put out in his back.

Volunteer? Hell, some guys pay good money to have that done to them. Verbal humiliation is extra, though.

198 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:35pm
199 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:36pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

And it's not like "Doing X", etc., which leads to permanent, irreparable, disabling, physical impairments/injuries.

200 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:58pm

re: #194 debutaunt

You bastard! Stop!

Or white shoes after Labor Day.

201 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:05:59pm

re: #192 HC4BO

Would Mancow admit to ANYTHING whilst undergoing water-boarding ... ?

THAT should be the basis of the argument when people claim water-boarding works ...

The question is: would Mancow udder a word? /

202 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:06:26pm

re: #191 NelsFree

Cognito, please, no name-calling! Could you state, though, your education and training in torture techniques so we can be assured of your veracity?

1. I'm not calling names.

2. Nope. But don't assume anything. I've got no 'training' in torture techniques whatsover. But beyond that, I'm not sure what I've said that needs assurance of veracity.

203 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:06:31pm

re: #189 DEZes

I actually give a few dings up, despite the fact I am positive I do not see eye to eye with some folks here.

It has taken some time, but I have reduced my knee-jerk reflex.

If someone posts something I think is right, no matter if I might not agree with them on something else, it is still right.

Ding up.

204 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:06:43pm

re: #197 calcajun

Volunteer? Hell, some guys pay good money to have that done to them. Verbal humiliation is extra, though.

Dick Morris comes to mind?

205 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:06:48pm

re: #201 Gus 802

The question is: would Mancow udder a word? /

Lets tip him. ;)

206 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:07:35pm

re: #200 Catttt

Or white shoes after Labor Day.

Horrors! Next, we put them in...the comfy chair

207 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:08:09pm

re: #203 formercorpsman

I actually give a few dings up, despite the fact I am positive I do not see eye to eye with some folks here.

It has taken some time, but I have reduced my knee-jerk reflex.

If someone posts something I think is right, no matter if I might not agree with them on something else, it is still right.

Ding up.

Absolutely agreed.
You may notice I updinged Killgore.

208 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:08:17pm

re: #205 DEZes

Lets tip him. ;)

I don't like where this thread is being steered.

209 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:08:24pm

re: #206 calcajun

Horrors! Next, we put them in...the comfy chair

Oh my god! The comfy chair - that's beyond the pale! ! !

210 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:08:44pm

re: #188 calcajun

Use...sarcasm! Use all the tricks-- dramatic irony, metaphor, bathos, puns, parody, litotes and satire. Show no mercy//

Can't you just nail my head to the floor?

211 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:08:47pm

re: #202 Cognito

1. I'm not calling names.

2. Nope. But don't assume anything. I've got no 'training' in torture techniques whatsover. But beyond that, I'm not sure what I've said that needs assurance of veracity.

"I've spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding -- the version being undertaken here, at least -- is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods"

?

212 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:00pm

re: #208 calcajun

I don't like where this thread is being steered.

Might end up being another stampede.

213 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:01pm

re: #205 DEZes

Lets tip him. ;)

You guys are trying -- ahem -- steer us toward puns, aren't you?

214 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:03pm

re: #207 DEZes

As did I.

Where is the beer?

215 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:21pm

re: #211 Nevergiveup

Mm?

216 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:25pm

No, real torture is when you're a member of parliament and the media leaks your expense account to the voters.
/Nadine Dorries

217 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:40pm

OT

I've created a monster. I got my Siamese a harness and leash, and we went for a walk earlier today. Now he's at the door yelling "walkies!" in Siamese cat.

218 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:49pm

re: #214 formercorpsman

As did I.

Where is the beer?

Its in the fridge, help yourself. ;)

219 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:50pm

re: #170 formercorpsman

I agree. What's the point of arguing if it is torture or not. It's clearly not the worst thing we can do for torture and it has proved effective on certain subjects in retrieving valuable information to stop planned attacks. The real question is when to use it.

220 Ringo the Gringo  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:09:54pm

re: #49 Charles

The only case in which this could possibly be justified is in a "ticking bomb" scenario. And from what I know about its use at Gitmo, that's how it was used.

How about in the case of someone such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, where you don't know if there is a "ticking time-bomb", but you do know that the person would certainly have information that could prevent attacks?

221 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:00pm

re: #195 Catttt

It's the potatoes' fault. I KNEW it! /

Eye for an eye?

222 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:08pm

re: #216 Zimriel

No, real torture is when you're a member of parliament and the media leaks your expense account to the voters.
/Nadine Dorries

Money for moats!

223 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:09pm

One pitch One Jimmy Rollins One shot to left 1-0 Phillies?

224 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:26pm

re: #191 NelsFree

Could you state, though, your education and training in torture techniques so we can be assured of your veracity?

Don't be vague. Ask 'em if he's married.

225 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:33pm

re: #172 LGoPs

Well said. I wish you'd written Obama's speech.

I haven't heard his speech. Was it that bad?

226 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:39pm

re: #217 Catttt

OT

I've created a monster. I got my Siamese a harness and leash, and we went for a walk earlier today. Now he's at the door yelling "walkies!" in Siamese cat.

Cats are born monsters, Thats why I love em. ;)

227 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:44pm

re: #215 Cognito

Mm?

You said it, i didn't

228 RajaBabu  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:10:59pm

I know waterboarding must be an awful experience, but
didn't one of the three men waterboarded cut off Daniel Pearl's
head with a dull knife blade? -He had to find another knife that was
sharp enough to finish the "job".
Who would I rather be?
Alive, but waterboarded, or
Daniel Pearl. Not to mention his wife's feelings about her husband
having his head hacked off with a knife.

229 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:14pm

re: #219 Idle Drifter

I agree. What's the point of arguing if it is torture or not. It's clearly not the worst thing we can do for torture and it has proved effective on certain subjects in retrieving valuable information to stop planned attacks. The real question is when to use it.

To prevent future terrorist events.

230 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:18pm

re: #218 DEZes

Hey, do you have any chips?

Where's the remote?

Can we turn the air down?

231 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:23pm

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII. I'm not going to get into the "is it torture or not" debate, but I would at least like to ask that we be consistent. If we can do it captives we should have no objection when it's done when our own G.I.s are taken as POWs.

232 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:33pm

re: #213 Cognito

You guys are trying -- ahem -- steer us toward puns, aren't you?

It worked too.
Now Moove over.

233 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:34pm

re: #202 Cognito

1. I'm not calling names.

2. Nope. But don't assume anything. I've got no 'training' in torture techniques whatsover. But beyond that, I'm not sure what I've said that needs assurance of veracity.

shit like this post is why people laugh at you...where did you "spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding"....and what is the conundrum you speak of?...be nice

234 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:48pm

re: #221 solomonpanting

Eye for an eye?

And I think the parsnips are in on it as well.

235 Digital Display  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:11:50pm

re: #186 callahan23

{HoosierHoops} how was your concert.
Nice to see you back.

Oh..It was a totally fun day at the track..Lots of fast cars..Beautiful women, Cold beer and great food....We hung out in suite 36 tonight..Unfortunately it was about a mile from the free concert...
I did hear my favorite song..It's not my time..But we had a great time...
How are you bro?

236 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:00pm

re: #211 Nevergiveup

You're not quoting Cognito correctly. You left out: "is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied." It's harsh, torturous, for moments -- but it's not permanent. Not like taking out an eye, say.

237 kawfytawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:07pm

re: #185 albusteve

instead of trying to insult me why don't you just explain your doubletalk?...it's easy....start by saying "what I meant was", or something to that effect

It really wasn't that difficult to decipher

238 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:08pm

In the big picture in the minds of the left ranting about waterboarding = torture,
it's really not about torture, human rights, treatment of prisoners, etc.
It's about BLAMING AMERICA!
Nancy Pelosi is the dead giveaway on that.
"I was against it, but couldn't do anything about it."
Political newspeak bullshit!

239 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:15pm

re: #212 Gus 802

Might end up being another stampede.

If this keeps up, I might have to go and ruminant some place else.

240 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:27pm

re: #227 Nevergiveup

You said it, i didn't

I'm not sure what I've said about waterboarding that requires verification. That it's harsh? That it's a conundrum? Which particular assertion?

If you're asking me to talk about me, then as I said -- no, sorry.

241 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:31pm

re: #222 debutaunt

Money for moats!

If ever there was a place where a papier mache puppet or two would be nice, it's Westminster...

How about a float with some larger-than-life pr0n star riding on the back of a huge bar of chocolate?

242 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:43pm

re: #234 Catttt

And I think the parsnips are in on it as well.

You chivin' me?

243 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:12:53pm

re: #183 Killgore Trout

I can think of a few things that fit your criteria can could still be considered torture. Waterboarding does work, it works quickly and is relatively safe if done correctly. We aren't doing this out of spite or revenge. It does produce valuable intelligence and it does it quickly. We aren't dealing with people who abide by the Geneva Convention or any of the "normal" rules of warfare. I don't think it should be removed from our arsenal of tools.

Agreed and I think a key point is, as you say, that it not be done casually or as punishment or revenge.

244 debutaunt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:01pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII. I'm not going to get into the "is it torture or not" debate, but I would at least like to ask that we be consistent. If we can do it captives we should have no objection when it's done when our own G.I.s are taken as POWs.

Rules? The terrorists play by rules?

245 UFO TOFU  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:12pm

re: #235 HoosierHoops

Nice, I like that band!

246 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:17pm

re: #221 solomonpanting

Eye for an eye?

solomonpanting -

Back in the Biblical Day - "An Eye for an Eye" as a statement of Moderation. That is all.

-S-

247 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:19pm

re: #241 Zimriel

How about a float with some larger-than-life pr0n star riding on the back of a huge bar of chocolate?

Or did I just reveal too much about the dream I had last night...

248 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:25pm

re: #239 calcajun

If this keeps up, I might have to go and ruminant some place else.

I'll be here grazing for ideas.

249 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:31pm

re: #217 Catttt

OT

I've created a monster. I got my Siamese a harness and leash, and we went for a walk earlier today. Now he's at the door yelling "walkies!" in Siamese cat.

And btw, people think it's cute to see a cat on a leash. People call other people to come look out the window at the cuteness.

250 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:13:37pm

re: #230 formercorpsman

Hey, do you have any chips?

Where's the remote?

Can we turn the air down?

I have Wavy Lays in the cupboard, The air is turned down and the cat peed in that chair.
///

251 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:14:02pm

re: #218 DEZes

Its in the fridge, help yourself. ;)

If I have a beer in each hand how am I gonna type?

252 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:14:21pm

re: #220 Ringo the Gringo

How about in the case of someone such as Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, where you don't know if there is a "ticking time-bomb", but you do know that the person would certainly have information that could prevent attacks?

That's exactly the situation where it was used, and I've said I do think it was appropriate at that time.

253 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:14:32pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII. I'm not going to get into the "is it torture or not" debate, but I would at least like to ask that we be consistent. If we can do it captives we should have no objection when it's done when our own G.I.s are taken as POWs.

There are different rules for POWs and illegal combatants.
We could have immediately executed them, for example.

254 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:14:39pm

re: #163 Catttt

... as Charles mentions, the Vietcong waterboarded Americans. I'll bet you the Vietcong thought they had good reason.

An article on North Vietnamese Torture:

[Link: www.ojc.org...]

An excerpt:

"Vietnamese torture took many forms, but basically, according to returned POWs, it boiled down to four types:
beatings which either permanently crippled or killed the prisoner,
deprivation of food and rest,
solitary confinement for months at a time,
and the intentional denial of medical treatment.
The U.S. Department of Defense estimated in 1973 that the Communist Vietnamese had tortured to death more than 55 U.S. prisoners."

So, what is waterboarding?

255 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:14:53pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII. I'm not going to get into the "is it torture or not" debate, but I would at least like to ask that we be consistent. If we can do it captives we should have no objection when it's done when our own G.I.s are taken as POWs.

I don't believe we "prosecuted" Japanese for only "water boarding" our GI's. That accusation might have been included with a boat load of far worse accusation that ultimately resulted in any verdicts. And while consistency might be great, times and situations change.

256 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:15:22pm

re: #251 screaming_eagle

If I have a beer in each hand how am I gonna type?

Beerhat

257 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:15:30pm

re: #251 screaming_eagle

If I have a beer in each hand how am I gonna type?

screaming_eagle -

Assuming you are Male, with your Nose, I hope.

-S-

258 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:01pm

re: #240 Cognito

I'm not sure what I've said about waterboarding that requires verification. That it's harsh? That it's a conundrum? Which particular assertion?

If you're asking me to talk about me, then as I said -- no, sorry.


hahaha!...thanks for dropping by...you're the best!

259 Attaboid  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:11pm

This is "The Onion", no?

260 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:13pm

re: #249 Catttt

One of my mom's cats used to walk on a leash too. They had to stop it when they moved out to the desert though. Too many snakes and scorpions.

261 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:22pm

re: #252 Charles

That's exactly the situation where it was used, and I've said I do think it was appropriate at that time.

Charles -

At the Minimum, agreed. That is all.

-S-

262 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:28pm

re: #235 HoosierHoops

Oh..It was a totally fun day at the track..Lots of fast cars..Beautiful women, Cold beer and great food....We hung out in suite 36 tonight..Unfortunately it was about a mile from the free concert...
I did hear my favorite song..It's not my time..But we had a great time...
How are you bro?

My father (74) visited me on his Harley Davidson. We had a very pleasurable afternoon on a sunny day with lots of wind.
And no we had no 'blast'. ;-)

263 tokyobk  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:39pm

It is torture, but that unfortunately does not solve the problem of whether to do it or not and what kind of info it brings out.

264 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:41pm

re: #251 screaming_eagle

If I have a beer in each hand how am I gonna type?

Please keep your pants up.

265 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:48pm

re: #254 NelsFree

You missed my point.

266 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:16:51pm

re: #236 J.S.

You're not quoting Cognito correctly. You left out: "is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied." It's harsh, torturous, for moments -- but it's not permanent. Not like taking out an eye, say.

He said he had experience with this shit and then denied it. That is only the point I was making. He seems to have a rather short memory so maybe I do have to repeat everything he says word for words and letter for letter

267 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:17:06pm

re: #254 NelsFree

An article on North Vietnamese Torture:

[Link: www.ojc.org...]

An excerpt:

"Vietnamese torture took many forms, but basically, according to returned POWs, it boiled down to four types:
beatings which either permanently crippled or killed the prisoner,
deprivation of food and rest,
solitary confinement for months at a time,
and the intentional denial of medical treatment.
The U.S. Department of Defense estimated in 1973 that the Communist Vietnamese had tortured to death more than 55 U.S. prisoners."

So, what is waterboarding?

Waterboarding in Vietnam:

Waterboarding was designated as illegal by U.S. generals in the Vietnam War.[77] On January 21, 1968, The Washington Post published a controversial front-page photograph of two U.S soldiers and one South Vietnamese soldier participating in the waterboarding of a North Vietnamese POW near Da Nang.[78] The article described the practice as "fairly common".[78] The photograph led to the soldier being court-martialled by a U.S. military court within one month of its publication, and he was discharged from the army.[77][79] Another waterboarding photograph of the same scene, referred to as "water torture" in the caption, is also exhibited in the War Remnants Museum in Ho Chi Minh City.

268 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:17:07pm

re: #225 Syrah

I haven't heard his speech. Was it that bad?

It was a convoluted mishmash of leftist logical fallacies all dressed up in pious platitudes. As a 5th graders essay project I'd give it a passing grade but cut the kid slack for not being grown up. As the guiding philosophy of our POTUS it makes me fear for our safety.

269 Dr. Shalit  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:17:27pm

re: #264 DEZes

Please keep your pants up.

DEZes -

"Zackly!"

-S-

270 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:17:52pm

re: #253 Kosh's Shadow

There are different rules for POWs and illegal combatants.
We could have immediately executed them, for example.

Technically, by the Geneva conventions, anyone hiding behind civilians is required to excuted on the spot.

271 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:17:57pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII.

Did you forget the sarc tag? The Japanese did a wee bit more to their prisoners than splash water down the nose. I think our veterans would have been OK with that than what was actually done to them. I speak of beatings, clubings, burning alive, systematic starvation, slave labor in factories in the home islands and on railways in southeast Asia and ocean trips in the holds of unmarked freighters that would make the German boxcars look like luxury coaches. Other than Civil War prisons, we never treated our POWS as horribly as the "guests of the Emperor" were treated.

272 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:00pm

re: #260 Killgore Trout

One of my mom's cats used to walk on a leash too. They had to stop it when they moved out to the desert though. Too many snakes and scorpions.

Oh, dear. My Siamese would try to eat the scorpions and make friends with the snakes.

273 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:07pm

re: #228 RajaBabu

Yes, that was Khalid Sheikh Mohammed. Wiki: "According to the 9/11 Commission Report he was 'the principal architect of the 9/11 attacks.' He is also thought to have had, or has confessed to, a role in many of the most significant terrorist plots over the last twenty years, including the World Trade Center 1993 bombings, the Operation Bojinka plot, an aborted 2002 attack on the U.S. Bank Tower in Los Angeles, the Bali nightclub bombings, the failed bombing of American Airlines Flight 63, the Millennium Plot, and the murder of Daniel Pearl."

274 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:21pm

re: #228 RajaBabu

I do recall it was KSM who did the deed.

In all honesty, and I know this might not go over well, but my preference for this whole Gitmo deal now would be to translate to them:

You are going to be let go.

You have 3 options.

We will fly you to the battle ground of your choice. We will have 4 of our best snipers positioned. You get 120 seconds to find cover, pick up a weapon, and join your buddies in resuming jihad.

We will fly you back to your home of origin. You renounce radical islam with a microphone, and a PA system in front of the biggest mosque in the country.

You can be a guest on The View, and get a date with Joy.

275 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:30pm

re: #242 solomonpanting

You chivin' me?

Endive he is.

276 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:31pm

Can someone answer a question for me? While they're pouring water on the waterboard-ee's face, is it possible for him to breath?

277 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:34pm

re: #249 Catttt

Since I've been busy lately my cats aren't getting enough attention. They've become increasingly good at working together to create nearly impenetrable roadblocks as I walk around the house.

278 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:39pm

Waterboarding in WWII:

During World War II both Japanese troops, especially the Kempeitai, and the officers of the Gestapo,[67] the German secret police, used waterboarding as a method of torture.[68] During the Japanese occupation of Singapore the Double Tenth Incident occurred. This included waterboarding, by the method of binding or holding down the victim on his back, placing a cloth over his mouth and nose, and pouring water onto the cloth. In this version, interrogation continued during the torture, with the interrogators beating the victim if he did not reply and the victim swallowing water if he opened his mouth to answer or breathe. When the victim could ingest no more water, the interrogators would beat or jump on his distended stomach.[69][70][71]

Chase J. Nielsen, one of the U.S. airmen who flew in the Doolittle raid following the attack on Pearl Harbor, was subjected to waterboarding by his Japanese captors.[72] At their trial for war crimes following the war, he testified "Well, I was put on my back on the floor with my arms and legs stretched out, one guard holding each limb. The towel was wrapped around my face and put across my face and water poured on. They poured water on this towel until I was almost unconscious from strangulation, then they would let up until I'd get my breath, then they'd start over again ... I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."

279 Desert Dog  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:46pm

re: #253 Kosh's Shadow

There are different rules for POWs and illegal combatants.
We could have immediately executed them, for example.

We did just that until recently....Vietnam. Forget about Korea or WWII. We killed uniformed soldiers without regard to "human rights" back then. My grandfather fought in Okinawa and Saipan. They just did not take any prisoners...they just killed every Japanese soldier they saw....white flag, hands up, it did not matter. Of course, they did not usually want to surrender.

280 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:18:47pm

re: #144 Sharmuta

The unconstrained are a puzzle on such things.

Torture could be used for another purpose other than gathering information. It is also a means of instilling terror. It could be used as a terrorizing punishment. Terror for the sake of shaping a people and a culture. As such, can we ever be assured that the unconstrained would not see in it a means to an end? Can we ever trust that they would never discover some "new information" that would make it a piety to use for the right cause?

281 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:06pm

re: #161 Cognito

Don't be a moron.

re: #202 Cognito

I'm not calling names.

I guess I won't wait up on that veracity thing, either.

282 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:07pm

re: #276 Last Mohican

I meant "breathe" of course.

283 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:21pm

re: #270 screaming_eagle

Technically, by the Geneva conventions, anyone hiding behind civilians is required to excuted on the spot.

indeed...that is a harsh penalty compared to waterboarding which they have a choice to undergo or not....we are not uncivil

284 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:24pm

re: #274 formercorpsman

You can be a guest on The View, and get a date with Joy.

What contest in Hell would I have to be in to win that?

285 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:33pm

re: #256 Gus 802

Beerhat

That will work

286 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:19:37pm

re: #266 Nevergiveup

He said he had experience with this shit and then denied it. That is only the point I was making. He seems to have a rather short memory so maybe I do have to repeat everything he says word for words and letter for letter

Nope. You're assuming things at one turn, and then making things up on the next. To wit:

1. I never said I had 'experience' with waterboarding. I've done work that required me to learn a bit about it.

2. I haven't denied such.

287 J.S.  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:20:00pm

re: #266 Nevergiveup

Oh, ok.

288 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:20:13pm

re: #201 Gus 802

The question is: would Mancow udder a word? /

Not until he was milked for all he's worth.

289 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:20:15pm

re: #268 LGoPs

It was a convoluted mishmash of leftist logical fallacies all dressed up in pious platitudes. As a 5th graders essay project I'd give it a passing grade but cut the kid slack for not being grown up. As the guiding philosophy of our POTUS it makes me fear for our safety.

I will have to look it up.

Obama has a golden voice, but he is the essence of a leader with feet of clay.

290 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:20:53pm

re: #276 Last Mohican

Can someone answer a question for me? While they're pouring water on the waterboard-ee's face, is it possible for him to breath?

No. And there are other versions that involve more than just pouring water on the face.

291 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:21:03pm

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I would say the folks at Bataan would have opted for water boarding.

292 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:21:20pm

re: #286 Cognito

Nope. You're assuming things at one turn, and then making things up on the next. To wit:

1. I never said I had 'experience' with waterboarding. I've done work that required me to learn a bit about it.

2. I haven't denied such.

I've spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding -- the version being undertaken here, at least -- is unique in that it's one of the harshest of methods, but only in the moment it's being applied. So it's a conundrum, in some ways.

You spent a little time on? what does that mean?

293 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:21:36pm

re: #286 Cognito

Nope. You're assuming things at one turn, and then making things up on the next. To wit:

1. I never said I had 'experience' with waterboarding. I've done work that required me to learn a bit about it.

2. I haven't denied such.

where?...under what circumstance?...and don't call people names, if you can help it

294 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:21:43pm

re: #288 solomonpanting

Not until he was milked for all he's worth.

I have no beef with Mancow. /

295 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:18pm

re: #253 Kosh's Shadow

There are different rules for POWs and illegal combatants.
We could have immediately executed them, for example.

Under the UCMJ, a Court-Martial is required before exacting a penalty. The penalty for spying can be death. The Nazi spies landed on Long Island during WW2 were executed after legal proceedings.

296 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:34pm

re: #293 albusteve

As I've said several times now -- "no, sorry."

If I've said something about waterboarding that you feel is incorrect, then by all means say so.

297 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:38pm

Cognita...just make something up if you have to

298 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:39pm

re: #294 Gus 802

I have no beef with Mancow. /

Toss him to the ground Chuck.

299 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:40pm

re: #284 calcajun

Biggest loser.

300 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:42pm

re: #294 Gus 802

I have no beef with Mancow. /

Then we won't see you at the next roast?

301 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:22:46pm

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It's fine and good to stand up for humane treatment of prisoners, but not at the expense of costing lives. What kind of principle is that?

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent" -Adam Smith

302 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:23:54pm
303 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:11pm

re: #271 calcajun

Did you forget the sarc tag? The Japanese did a wee bit more to their prisoners than splash water down the nose. I think our veterans would have been OK with that than what was actually done to them. I speak of beatings, clubings, burning alive, systematic starvation, slave labor in factories in the home islands and on railways in southeast Asia and ocean trips in the holds of unmarked freighters that would make the German boxcars look like luxury coaches. Other than Civil War prisons, we never treated our POWS as horribly as the "guests of the Emperor" were treated.

A submarine sunk a Japanese transport carrying some POWs. Some of the POWs, when rescued, thanked the subs for sinking the ship. They would have rather died than continue the trip as POWs. That fits this definition of torture:
re: #169 cardiacmont

It wasn't torture.

He wished it would end.

Torture makes you wish for the end.

304 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:11pm

Cognito

A book recommendation for you.

A Conflict of Visions.

305 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:23pm

re: #300 solomonpanting

Like a steak through the heart, isn't it?

306 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:25pm

re: #274 formercorpsman

I didn't think it was possible, but now I feel sorry for Ms. Behar. Plus, her sig other (Steven Janowitz) might object.

307 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:43pm

re: #295 NelsFree

Under the UCMJ, a Court-Martial is required before exacting a penalty. The penalty for spying can be death. The Nazi spies landed on Long Island during WW2 were executed after legal proceedings.

On the other hand, Skorzeny's infiltrators used during the Ardennes Offensive (I do so hate the term "Battle of the Bulge" were summarily executed when captured. Feelings were running a little high in the American lines in January 45--right after the Malmedy Massacre.

308 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:44pm

Bottom of the first in Boston 2 on no out Santana on the mound Ortiz up

309 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:53pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

That has to be one of the most cynical, wrong-headed non sequiturs I can remember ever reading.

310 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:24:53pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

Buh-bye
Have fun at the stalker blog.

311 lsuchamps03  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:25:00pm

freakin idiot. that's exactly what the leftto loons are craving. he should have kept his fat mouth shut

312 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:25:18pm

re: #276 Last Mohican

Can someone answer a question for me? While they're pouring water on the waterboard-ee's face, is it possible for him to breath?

It is possible to breath but the takes some real control over panic and getting breaths in without inhaling water. Most simply panic.

313 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:25:45pm

re: #304 Syrah

Thanks, I'm a big fan of Sowell.

314 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:25:51pm

re: #277 Killgore Trout

Since I've been busy lately my cats aren't getting enough attention. They've become increasingly good at working together to create nearly impenetrable roadblocks as I walk around the house.

I used to walk much faster. Cats train one to walk carefully. :D

315 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:25:53pm

re: #306 Catttt

Or he might be grateful.

316 MacDuff  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:26:19pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It's fine and good to stand up for humane treatment of prisoners, but not at the expense of costing lives. What kind of principle is that?

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent" -Adam Smith

Well said! We simply cannot remove all tools from our arsenal when dealing with the inhuman creatures of which we speak. We used it on 3 people and it was needed.

317 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:26:24pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

WTF was that?

318 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:26:27pm

re: #290 Cognito

No. And there are other versions that involve more than just pouring water on the face.

So then it's something akin to forcibly holding someone's head underwater, only supposedly even more uncomfortable because of the sensation of the force of the water hitting the towel on one's nose?

319 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:26:59pm

re: #298 DEZes

Toss him to the ground Chuck.

Then lead him like a lamb to the slaughter. /

320 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:27:14pm

re: #278 Charles

Waterboarding in WWII:

I felt more or less like I was drowning, just gasping between life and death."

Wow. That does sound horific.
Good. Couldn't happen to a more deserving fellow than KSM.

321 formercorpsman  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:27:24pm

Well, it must be the weekend. Dinner is ready, and my wife is already yelling at me.

See everyone maybe later tonight.

322 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:27:41pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

It's Jerusalem Day in Israel, in case anyone cares. One of the most important events in the history of Judaism, and Charles concerns himself with the discomfort of Islamist scum.

[Link: www.isracast.com...]

have you been following?

323 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:27:58pm

re: #310 Killgore Trout

Buh-bye
Have fun at the stalker blog.

Already a resident.

324 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:27:59pm

re: #305 ArmyWife

Like a steak through the heart, isn't it?

Mancowpig turning slowly on the spit.

325 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:00pm

re: #318 Last Mohican

Very roughly, yes. In the version we're talking about it's a matter of triggering panic.

326 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:05pm

Truth tortured by Pelosi Speak!
"I have made the statement that I'm going to make on this. I don't have any more to say on this.I stand by my comments. And what we are doing is staying on our course and not being distracted from it."

She doesn't care about anything but her own political power.

327 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:13pm

re: #319 Gus 802

Then lead him like a lamb to the slaughter. /

House is on.

328 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:15pm

re: #317 DEZes

I didn't understand what it meant, but it certainly read rather snarky. I hope some light is shed.

329 lsuchamps03  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:23pm

re: #312 Idle Drifter

It is possible to breath but the takes some real control over panic and getting breaths in without inhaling water. Most simply panic.

RSVP: Medically it is possible to breathe and I agree with mohican, it does take self control to fight the drowning reflex.

330 hopperandadropper  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:24pm

To make this entirely scientific, he should compare the waterboarding experience with one or more of the following:

1) Flogging with a bullwhip
2) Racking
3) Iron Maiden
4) Red hot poker
5) Being punctured with a power drill, a la the Al Qaeda torture manual

Then tell us which is worse.

331 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:25pm

re: #265 Catttt

You missed my point.

You point appears to be that the VC felt justified in their methods. I concur with that point. I hastened to add, though, other techniques used by the VC and NVN.
/If you believe you stand corrected, I may give you a hug.

332 theheat  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:43pm

I may be the minority, but it sounded like torture to me when the details came out. Previous to when it hit the media, I had no concept of anything like waterboarding. I had read about some of things that happened to our captured prisoners in Viet Nam/Korea, but I was never aware of waterboarding, specifically.

I think what it comes down to, is whether there are any circumstances - ever - where any kind of torture is warranted, more than what constitutes torture. This is what is being debated right now, is whether these interrogation techniques really saved lives, how many lives, whose lives, etc.

A civilized society would say there is never a situation where they would stoop to the levels of their enemies. Clearly, we did, if you believe waterboarding is torture. If it was necessary under particular circumstances will probably be debated for some time.

I know on a personal level, if an individual had information about, say, one of my children that was abducted, I have no doubt in my mind I could go from civilized to barbaric in about zero seconds, if that was my only means to extract information. The legality or morality of it would not be a consideration. I don't know if that's some huge character flaw I have, or not, but it's in the really dark stuff deep down inside of me. If I liken that to waterboarding to extract information to save people's lives, I have to admit I would consider it, ugly as it is.

333 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:43pm

re: #325 Cognito

Very roughly, yes. In the version we're talking about it's a matter of triggering panic.

ah we know that...

334 Digital Display  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:46pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It's fine and good to stand up for humane treatment of prisoners, but not at the expense of costing lives. What kind of principle is that?

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent" -Adam Smith

Hey you Sharm.Thank you for your kindness this morning...
I got caught up I some bullshit but you have been very kind to me..
Thank you Sharm.. I got the emails on my Blackberry...
I love you you girl..and your kindness...It was a very tough day..
Thank you so much

335 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:28:47pm

re: #309 Cognito

That has to be one of the most cynical, wrong-headed non sequiturs I can remember ever reading.

Wants to be banned.

336 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:29:47pm

re: #333 albusteve

Excellent. Very good. I was answering someone else's question, but I'm glad you're on it.

337 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:29:49pm

re: #302 vagabond trader
What prompted this meltdown, if I may ask?

338 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:29:59pm

re: #9 Killgore Trout
Well further research would seem to indicate that it depends on your search parameters :[Link: www.google.com...]

339 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:30:07pm

re: #328 ArmyWife

I didn't understand what it meant, but it certainly read rather snarky. I hope some light is shed.

Oh I know what it meant.
Its blatant and over the top.

340 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:30:12pm

Well, off to grab a bottle of fine single-malt and then up at 5:30 to take the Scouts to Ft. Rosecrans for grave decoration. It's quite beautiful, really. The Scouts will take the flags and fan out so fast that the entire cemetery is covered in less than two hours. Some of them don't get it yet, but they will.

341 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:30:24pm

Something about the Enhanced techniques I think being missed ; sleep deprivation is now listed as torture. Everybody wants to argue about waterboarding, well I wanna know about sleep deprivation. Are we now gonna have to worry about detainees complaining to their lawyers that they didn't get a good nights sleep?

342 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:30:32pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

Well, somebody certainly got up on the Mr. Grumpy side of the bed today!

343 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:30:41pm

{Hoops}

344 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:08pm

re: #341 screaming_eagle

Something about the Enhanced techniques I think being missed ; sleep deprivation is now listed as torture. Everybody wants to argue about waterboarding, well I wanna know about sleep deprivation. Are we now gonna have to worry about detainees complaining to their lawyers that they didn't get a good nights sleep?

They gonna get us all Killed

345 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:12pm

Well the fact that Mancow "couldn't take it" isn't exactly the same as saying a dedicated, YOUNG and trained jihadist couldn't take it, either.

346 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:23pm

re: #323 Russkilitlover

Already a resident.

For that sort of blog, I believe "inmate" would be the preferred term...

347 realwest  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:34pm

See y'all down the road!

348 American Sabra  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:37pm

re: #94 Charles

The fact is that waterboarding triggers the drowning reflex. It has nothing to do with how long you can hold your breath; when your senses tell you you're drowning, a primal instinct of panic kicks in and you cannot control it.

That's why it's torture. It's pointless to argue that it isn't. The only real question is whether it's justified in extreme cases.

Absolutely.

My question is do you trust the information you receive from someone who is tortured. Or they just gonna say anything. Of course if you're torturing for revenge, that's immoral. But to obtain info? Ok, but how much torture gives reliable information? Or how less.

349 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:52pm

re: #346 Zimriel

For that sort of blog, I believe "inmate" would be the preferred term...

Or patient.

350 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:31:59pm

re: #342 Catttt

Well, somebody certainly got up on the Mr. Grumpy side of the bed today!

Posting at the other site - gleeful about how best to get banned.

351 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:05pm

re: #336 Cognito

Excellent. Very good. I was answering someone else's question, but I'm glad you're on it.

why don't you answer my question?...where did you "spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding"?...just curious in a friendly way

352 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:06pm

re: #326 IslandLibertarian

Truth tortured by Pelosi Speak!
"I have made the statement that I'm going to make on this. I don't have any more to say on this.I stand by my comments. And what we are doing is staying on our course and not being distracted from it."

She doesn't care about anything but her own political power.

Yeah, I can really see the MFM let a Republican Speaker of the House getting away with this kind of arrogant dismissal. They would eat him alive and he/she'd be out of office by the end of the week.
/ Bastards.

353 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:07pm

re: #326 IslandLibertarian

Truth tortured by Pelosi Speak!
"I have made the statement that I'm going to make on this. I don't have any more to say on this.I stand by my comments. And what we are doing is staying on our course and not being distracted from it."

She doesn't care about anything but her own political power.

* * * * * * **
Did you see her Cosa Nostra Congresss democrat body guards, Chris Van Hollen, Javier Becerra and Steny Hoyer, standing next to her & filibustering so no one could ask Pelosi about her claims last week the CIA lied to her?

Bwa haha, what a weakling Pelosi looked like.

Pelosi tried to brag "We've passed the most aggressive plans to save the planet today this week" bla bla bla.

354 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:26pm

re: #341 screaming_eagle

Sleep deprivation is another interesting example. It can range from niggling inconvenience to lethality.

355 Desert Dog  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:52pm

For what it is worth, I cannot recall any other military power anguishing over this subject as much as the USA has. We have one side that claims we should never, under any circumstance engage in torture because it is against what we stand for. I can understand that line of reasoning to a point. I do not think Bush, Cheney and the powers that be just loved to torture because they got their jollies off and were just plain evil like some of the foaming at the mouth leftist think.

We live in a big bad world and sometimes, we need to exert more pressure on a prisoner than we normally like. Especially if many lives are in danger. We have engaged in torture, but it is not our standing policy. And, compared to most of the world, we are mild.

If some of the Democrats (pushed by the ACLU) still want to start a witch hunt over this practice, they will do way more harm than good. Bush was upfront and honest about this activity and judging by what I have seen, the Congress was informed all along the way. For someone like Nancy Pelosi to get this "holier than thou" attitude is way off.

356 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:32:54pm

re: #305 ArmyWife

Like a steak through the heart, isn't it?

Well done, ArmyWife!

357 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:33:02pm

re: #255 Nevergiveup

I don't believe we "prosecuted" Japanese for only "water boarding" our GI's. That accusation might have been included with a boat load of far worse accusation that ultimately resulted in any verdicts. And while consistency might be great, times and situations change.

It still remains that by publicly employing such tactics as a matter of policy we have granted broad license to foreign powers to employ such tactics against against our own troops when they are taken prisoner.

I'm not going to stomp my feet and say "it's just wrong. we should do that," but I really do worry about the effect it might have for American GIs taken captive.

358 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:33:03pm

re: #351 albusteve

I've answered you several times.

359 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:33:21pm

re: #349 Gus 802

Or patient.

Specimen?

360 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:34:19pm

re: #359 Russkilitlover

Specimen?

Lab rats.

361 zombie  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:34:27pm

Put it this way:

If I had to choose between having my eyes gouged out and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.

If I had to choose between having my hand crushed in a vise and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.

If I had to choose between being fed into a plastic shredding machine and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.

If I had to choose between being electrocuted and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.

If I had to choose between just about ANY actual physical torture that causes ACTUAL physical harm and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.

No one claims that waterboarding is a pleasant experience. That's the whole point: It makes you feel like you're about to drown. But the key is: You aren't actually drowning. Because as soon as you sit up, you're fine.

Mancow proved this himself by sitting up and within just a few seconds giving an interview to say how horrible it was. But they very fact that he was giving an interview and being uninjured proves that there is a distinction between waterboarding and "traditional" torture.

Think of it in these terms. Mancow said:

“It is way worse than I thought it would be, and that’s no joke,”Mancow said, likening it to a time when he nearly drowned as a child. “It is such an odd feeling to have water poured down your nose with your head back...It was instantaneous...and I don’t want to say this: absolutely torture. I wanted to prove it wasn’t torture,” Mancow said. “They cut off our heads, we put water on their face...I got voted to do this but I really thought ‘I’m going to laugh this off.’ ”

But when it was all over, Mancow was physically fine, but Nick Berg's head had been cut off.

That's the difference.

Perhaps we need to come up with a different and more "nuanced" series of definitions for "torture"; waterboarding may indeed be "physchological torture" (as are many other things), but Mancow's physical health immediately afterwards proves it isn't physical torture -- which is the traditional definition of torture.

362 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:22pm

re: #345 realwest

Well the fact that Mancow "couldn't take it" isn't exactly the same as saying a dedicated, YOUNG and trained jihadist couldn't take it, either.

* * * *
Hi Real!

Some jihadis drug up, taking khat or other drugs I thought I read somewhere.
And if you've promised Allah you're going to die for Allah, you could be on a different plane of consciousness.

363 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:28pm

re: #330 hopperandadropper

Let's not forget these little gems:

1. Glass tube inserted in penis--then heated.
2. Cigarettes in the eyes
3. soles of the feet being caned.

Look, waterboarding is torture--it is a means of coercing someone to divulge information. Compared to the more vicious forms we have mentioned, it is more akin to psychological torture as no lasting physical effects are left. But, it is still a form of torture.

364 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:40pm

re: #354 Cognito

Sleep deprivation is another interesting example. It can range from niggling inconvenience to lethality.

President Obama says it is torture. Everybody wants to talk about waterboarding but the list had like ten different techniques , and the bulk of them is the point that gets missed in the general discussion.

365 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:47pm

re: #361 zombie

Well said.

366 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:55pm

re: #358 Cognito

I've answered you several times.

.where did you "spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding"?...

I cannot find your answer...can you tell me post to review?

367 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:35:58pm

re: #307 calcajun

On the other hand, Skorzeny's infiltrators used during the Ardennes Offensive (I do so hate the term "Battle of the Bulge" were summarily executed when captured. Feelings were running a little high in the American lines in January 45--right after the Malmedy Massacre.

WW2 was Pre-UCMJ

368 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:36:01pm

re: #357 Conservative Moonbat

It still remains that by publicly employing such tactics as a matter of policy we have granted broad license to foreign powers to employ such tactics against against our own troops when they are taken prisoner.

I'm not going to stomp my feet and say "it's just wrong. we should do that," but I really do worry about the effect it might have for American GIs taken captive.

Well your concern is well founded, but if the freaken democrats hadn't thrown a hissy fit over this, it wouldn't be headline news and all. So I suggest they shut their fat mouths.

369 Canoe Train  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:36:08pm

re: #361 zombie

I only wish I put this as articulate and eloquent as you have, Oh Undead One.

370 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:36:46pm

Three people (and I use the word loosely) acknowledged to have been water boarded by US personnel. It worked by all reports though that must not be released say the Bush demonizers. I think it has been underutilized.

I do not advocate that it become ubiquitous, but I give you Iranian "Special Groups" infiltrators in Iraq for just one example. I want the entire organization peeled back with weapons rat lines revealed and the names and addresses of all involved, right up to the Mullahs. This saves lives just as surely as breaking the Al Quada hierarchy.

You won't get this information over tea or through diplomatic back and forth as the game is evidently being played today.

371 calcajun  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:36:59pm

re: #367 NelsFree

True.

Anyway--gotta dash.

372 checked08  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:37:13pm

important not to make strawman arguments on the issue. if you can stand the music, here christopher hitchens getting water boarded

373 zombie  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:37:22pm

physchological = psychological

PIMF

374 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:37:31pm
375 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:37:50pm

re: #362 alegrias

* * * *
Hi Real!

Some jihadis drug up, taking khat or other drugs I thought I read somewhere.
And if you've promised Allah you're going to die for Allah, you could be on a different plane of consciousness.

If they're so heavily drugged as that -- and there's no way khat is going to negate the breathing reflex -- then there's no point in questioning them at that moment, regardless.

376 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:38:08pm

re: #361 zombie

Well put. It seems extremely, profoundly unpleasant. But there are many, many things that can be done to a man that leave him unable to speak coherently enough to explain the experience for hours afterwards. Or months. Or forever.

377 hopperandadropper  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:38:18pm

re: #357 Conservative Moonbat

Dude, the Geneva Conventions don't apply to KSM and the like. We already know the jihadis are not going to respect the Conventions if they capture one of ours, they're going to beat the hell out of them and cut off their heads with a Bowie knife. I think your argument is an empty one. The Conventions clearly allow different treatment (summary execution, for example) for spies and saboteurs.

I do agree that treatment like waterboarding should only be used in limited, severe and urgent circumstances. That seems to have been the case here.

378 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:38:51pm

re: #366 albusteve

Just search for 'nope.'

379 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:38:55pm

re: #338 realwest

From your link it looks like his gives crazy Alan Keyes a platform too.
I just looked at his wiki page.....

Mancow claimed that Obama is a closet Muslim and Hillary Clinton had secret information about a video tape showing Michelle Obama in a racist tirade. Mancow insisted this was why Hillary Clinton was remaining in the race, as the alleged video tape would presumably harm Barack Obama's candidacy
....
He is a libertarian and had endorsed Wayne Allyn Root for the Libertarian Party's 2008 United States presidential nomination.


He sounds like a loon to me.

380 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:39:17pm

re: #375 Cognito

If they're so heavily drugged as that -- and there's no way khat is going to negate the breathing reflex -- then there's no point in questioning them at that moment, regardless.

And you know that how? People who are drunk or high, never talk or tell the truth?

381 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:39:40pm

re: #357 Conservative Moonbat

Regardless of what we do to prisoners, our enemies will do as they please to our soldiers when captured.
Moral authority is a myth on the same level as creationism.

382 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:39:51pm

re: #360 Gus 802

Lab rats.

Jerk.

383 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:39:56pm

re: #341 screaming_eagle

Something about the Enhanced techniques I think being missed ; sleep deprivation is now listed as torture. Everybody wants to argue about waterboarding, well I wanna know about sleep deprivation. Are we now gonna have to worry about detainees complaining to their lawyers that they didn't get a good nights sleep?

Fuck. I get sleep deprivation in the job I'm doing right now - high pressure defense project. And when I was in the Army I spent a significant portion of my time walking around like a zombie.....
Sheesh.

384 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:39:57pm

re: #331 NelsFree

You point appears to be that the VC felt justified in their methods. I concur with that point. I hastened to add, though, other techniques used by the VC and NVN.
/If you believe you stand corrected, I may give you a hug.

Your point is beside the point. A full list of the Vietcong's many sins was not what I was posting about. I was posting about how people twist the English language to suit their purposes.

I basically meant that torture is usually applied for a reason. The reason for torture therefore neither justifies nor does it preclude whether or not it is torture. It is torture. It's specious to me to try to redefine such just because of the reasons it was used.

Using it is a whole 'nother thing, and I think the Bush admin. was very judicious in the application and choice to use it. As for the Vietcong, their reasons are not mine, so no matter what they do, I am against them.

I also think the Obama administration is paying lip service by bleating about the subject but would use it in a New York minute at the drop of a hat if it suited their purposes or they thought they could do it without being caught. I base this on their track record so far.

385 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:40:00pm

re: #301 Sharmuta

The Constitution is not a suicide pact. It's fine and good to stand up for humane treatment of prisoners, but not at the expense of costing lives. What kind of principle is that?

"Mercy to the guilty is cruelty to the innocent" -Adam Smith

And before that:

All who are made to be compassionate in the place of the cruel
In the end are made to be cruel in the place of the compassionate

386 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:40:07pm

re: #382 DEZes

Jerk.

not you Gus.

387 Lincolntf  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:04pm

I've seen grown men cry because they were forced to run beyond their pain tolerance. I've seen strong men fall down from utter exhaustion. I've seen patriotic men blubber out the last 4 digits of their SS number in order to stop the brutal stress positions they were put in. They would have all called it torture in the moments after each. They all showed up at formation the next day to take more of the same.
Everything that is painful is not torture.

388 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:32pm

re: #386 DEZes

not you Gus.

Yeah, I saw that you up-dinged that. =)

Had me scratching my head there for a second though. ;)

389 MadNachos  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:35pm

What we really need to do is say we don't torture, then just do it anyway when required.

390 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:37pm

re: #385 solomonpanting

Wow- I like that quote a lot. I've placed it in my favorites. What is the source?

391 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:45pm

re: #378 Cognito

Just search for 'nope.'

you are flat out lying...but it always looks good on you...why do you put yourself in these positions?...don't answer, I already know

392 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:46pm

re: #380 Nevergiveup

And you know that how? People who are drunk or high, never talk or tell the truth?

I know that because it's obvious. If someone is so thoroughly drugged that they can resist waterboarding -- that is, so drugged that they don't mind drowning -- then they are drugged to the point of incoherence. Or unconsciousness, more likely.

393 dwigg  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:53pm

OK, Mancow was treated to how the Bush Administration treated 3 terrorists to help save the lives of Americans. Now Mancow needs to volunteer to the treatment of how the Obama administration treated 3 terrorists to help save the life of one American. Forgive me if this has already been expressed but this is the point, you do what you have to do to protect our citizens against terrorism.

394 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:56pm

re: #383 LGoPs

Fuck. I get sleep deprivation in the job I'm doing right now - high pressure defense project. And when I was in the Army I spent a significant portion of my time walking around like a zombie.....
Sheesh.

You mean 4 hours on 4 hours off around the clock for 2 weeks straight screws up sleep?

395 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:41:59pm

re: #351 albusteve

why don't you answer my question?...where did you "spend a little time on torture techniques, and waterboarding"?...just curious in a friendly way

Way to go, Albusteve! Hold his feet to the fire!
/wait, that's...torture!

396 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:42:34pm

re: #386 DEZes

This, to me, is the soul of LGF. I love this comment. :D

397 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:42:36pm

re: #388 Gus 802

Yeah, I saw that you up-dinged that. =)

Had me scratching my head there for a second though. ;)

I thought as soon as I hit post, it could be taken wrong.

398 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:42:41pm

re: #390 Sharmuta

Wow- I like that quote a lot. I've placed it in my favorites. What is the source?

The Talmud.

399 Canoe Train  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:42:54pm

re: #381 IslandLibertarian

I would give you a Squillion updings for that salient observation. I can give only one up ding, however.

400 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:43:05pm

Three.

We waterboarded three scumbags.

How many heads were chopped off of screaming victims?

401 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:43:07pm

re: #391 albusteve

you are flat out lying...but it always looks good on you...why do you put yourself in these positions?...don't answer, I already know

Well done. You win.

402 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:43:31pm

re: #389 MadNachos

What we really need to do is say we don't torture, then just do it anyway when required.

That's what we used to do.

403 ProUSA  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:43:44pm

re: #60 albusteve

To be clear. I have no problem with our people using water boarding when necessary to save lives.

I am opposed to the type of torture we see used by our enemies for retribution or sick pleasure -- such as the brutal techniques used it on people that are not threats to them, or have no information to give. Plus they proudly broadcast it.

404 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:05pm

re: #397 DEZes

I thought as soon as I hit post, it could be taken wrong.

Yep. It was a rare moment.

405 Idle Drifter  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:15pm

re: #348 American Sabra

Good intelligence doesn't come from one source. What the terrorists spill after water boarding or getting smacked around is analyzed along side other confessions, message intercepts, satellite data, enemy movement, etc to create the larger intelligence picture of the battlefield. The intelligence is deemed no good when it doesn't mesh well with other sources. Think of it as completing one jigsaw puzzle set out of several, mixed jigsaw puzzles. There's a lot of useless information that has to be sifted through before the intelligence services get what they want.

406 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:25pm

re: #398 solomonpanting


Sharmuta

407 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:27pm

re: #396 Catttt

I have a great deal of respect for Gus, I had to head that confusing post off.

408 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:27pm

re: #302 vagabond trader

It's Jerusalem Day in Israel, in case anyone cares. One of the most important events in the history of Judaism, and Charles concerns himself with the discomfort of Islamist scum.

[Link: www.isracast.com...]

Jerusalem Day is significant, but it is not one of the "most important" events in the history of Judaism, not on a par with Giving of the Torah which we celebrate next week.

409 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:44:52pm
410 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:02pm

re: #392 Cognito

I know that because it's obvious. If someone is so thoroughly drugged that they can resist waterboarding -- that is, so drugged that they don't mind drowning -- then they are drugged to the point of incoherence. Or unconsciousness, more likely.

But you said they can not negate the breathing reflex?

If they're so heavily drugged as that -- and there's no way khat is going to negate the breathing reflex -- then there's no point in questioning them at that moment, regardless.

So what do you mean? So just being drugged means they don't talk or make sense? What medical school did you graduate from?

411 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:16pm

re: #350 Russkilitlover

Posting at the other site - gleeful about how best to get banned.

Shhhhhhh - I'm infantilizing him.

412 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:28pm

re: #373 zombie

I, for one, understood perfectly. In fact, it made me feel a little better about myself. ;)

413 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:30pm

re: #407 DEZes

I have a great deal of respect for Gus, I had to head that confusing post off.

Thanks DEZes.

You ever get those rendering images?

414 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:39pm

This whole torture/not torture issue is moot. Obama has already spilled the beans via the torture memos. Cat's out of the bag.

415 zombie  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:52pm

And in case anyone's curious: I've been "waterboarded" (or the equivalent of) three times in my life, so I know all too well the experience of feeling like I'm drowning:

Once, in seventh grade, during the school swimming class, when a group of bullies pushed me to the bottom of the pool and literally stood on my head for well over a minute, just for sadistic fun. I was inhaling water and definitely thought I was drowning.

Once when I was a toddler when my older brother tried to drown me in the bathtub (he resented that I had been born and wanted the interloper out of the way).

And once when I tried to swim in an extremely cold swimming pool and had my muscles freeze up on me and sank to the bottom before being rescued.

In all three cases, I didn't merely feel like I was about to drown -- I was drowning. Luckily, in all three cases I survived. But I know the experience well. And even with that knowledge, I'd choose the experience over having real permanent injuries and unbearable pain (i.e. "real" torture) inflicted on me.

416 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:45:56pm

re: #401 Cognito

Well done. You win.

where is the post where you explained your torture "time"...I can't find it

417 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:46:07pm

re: #357 Conservative Moonbat

It still remains that by publicly employing such tactics as a matter of policy we have granted broad license to foreign powers to employ such tactics against against our own troops when they are taken prisoner.

I'm not going to stomp my feet and say "it's just wrong. we should do that," but I really do worry about the effect it might have for American GIs taken captive.

We would not be using anything like this against lawful, uniformed soldiers of an opposing nation. And we would expect the same in return from those nations.
The fucks we are using this against don't adhere to any of the laws of warfare and certainly have no qualms in torturing our prisoners for sheer pleasure.
They are animals and should direct some of their prayers to Allah in thanks that their opponent is as fucking benevolent as we are. What they deserve is for us to go Roman on their ass,

418 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:46:12pm

re: #398 solomonpanting

Thanks.

I think most of us (at least here anyways) can make a distinction between a person who may have done wrong versus an evil person. Some who are guilty may be worthy of mercy, but mercy for evil perpetuates evil.

419 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:46:13pm

re: #350 Russkilitlover

Posting at the other site - gleeful about how best to get banned.

Seriously?

420 3 wood  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:46:19pm

Good evening. The market ended fractionally up for the week:
U.S. Stocks Decline, Bonds Fall on Government Funding Concern


May 22 (Bloomberg) -- U.S. stocks dropped, erasing gains in the final hour of trading for the third time this week, as government borrowing costs climbed to a six-month high and investors sold shares before the holiday weekend.


“There’s concern about the credit outlook,” said Frank Ingarra, the Stamford, Connecticut-based manager of the $160 million Hennessy Focus 30 Fund that beat 99 percent of its peers in the past five years. With U.S. markets closed on May 25 for Memorial Day, “it makes sense that people don’t want to be long over the weekend,” he said.

421 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:47:06pm

re: #413 Gus 802

Thanks DEZes.

You ever get those rendering images?

No, matter of fact no.
Could have been eaten by the filters. :(

422 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:47:08pm

I wonder if a big part of the problem that we have with the Geneva Conventions is that we apply its restraints to ourselves and everyone else, be they signatories or not.

I wonder how much more respect the Geneva Conventions would get if we only applied its restraints against those that were signatories, the non-signatories be damned.

I wonder if we have made its benefits too cheap and easy for the non-signatories to benefit from with out having to be held to it.

But could we even find it in within ourselves to not apply the basic restraints of the conventions even against the worst sort? I doubt if we could.

Its an asymmetry problem.

423 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:47:31pm

re: #410 Nevergiveup

But you said they can not negate the breathing reflex?

...

So what do you mean? So just being drugged means they don't talk or make sense? What medical school did you graduate from?

Good grief.

424 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:47:38pm

re: #421 DEZes

No, matter of fact no.
Could have been eaten by the filters. :(

Must have. I'll try again later. That went out about a week ago.

425 Russkilitlover  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:47:45pm

re: #415 zombie

My goodness! No wonder you covet your anonymity!

426 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:48:09pm

re: #423 Cognito

Good grief.

What are you Charlie Brown now?

427 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:48:10pm

re: #415 zombie

Oh Zombie, what an experience.

428 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:48:12pm

re: #278 Charles

Must we really become experts in this, to distinguish between techniques and intensity?

429 Vicious Babushka  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:48:18pm

re: #415 zombie

And in case anyone's curious: I've been "waterboarded" (or the equivalent of) three times in my life, so I know all too well the experience of feeling like I'm drowning:

Once, in seventh grade, during the school swimming class, when a group of bullies pushed me to the bottom of the pool and literally stood on my head for well over a minute, just for sadistic fun. I was inhaling water and definitely thought I was drowning.

Once when I was a toddler when my older brother tried to drown me in the bathtub (he resented that I had been born and wanted the interloper out of the way).

And once when I tried to swim in an extremely cold swimming pool and had my muscles freeze up on me and sank to the bottom before being rescued.

In all three cases, I didn't merely feel like I was about to drown -- I was drowning. Luckily, in all three cases I survived. But I know the experience well. And even with that knowledge, I'd choose the experience over having real permanent injuries and unbearable pain (i.e. "real" torture) inflicted on me.

Maybe you really did drown and voodoo obeah mamba brought you back to life.

430 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:48:33pm

re: #423 Cognito

Good grief.

not a good answer...where did you get all this expertise?

431 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:49:00pm

re: #384 Catttt

"Your point is beside the point".
I'm not sure whether to hug you, or go for a beer. Which side of your point is my point? Left or right? Could mine be above or below? Why are you being so two-dimensional?
/h

432 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:49:20pm

re: #424 Gus 802

Must have. I'll try again later. That went out about a week ago.

I will be on the look out.
Thanks.

433 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:49:26pm

re: #415 zombie

That's rough, Zombie.

434 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:49:32pm

re: #418 Sharmuta

Thanks.

I think most of us (at least here anyways) can make a distinction between a person who may have done wrong versus an evil person. Some who are guilty may be worthy of mercy, but mercy for evil perpetuates evil.

Totally agree.

435 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:49:38pm

re: #394 screaming_eagle

You mean 4 hours on 4 hours off around the clock for 2 weeks straight screws up sleep?

The longest I ever went was 3 days and 3 nights straight with nothing but a 20 minute catnap every 12 hours or so. By the end of that I was dangerous to everybody around me and couldn't make a decision to save my life. That was back in the day when our ARTEP's were 3 to 4 days in length. The Army got smarter about that later.....
:)

436 Greengolem64  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:50:00pm

re: #115 Charles

When it was used against US soldiers in Vietnam and WWII, we had absolutely no hesitation about labeling it "torture," by the way.

True, but it was one of the 'lesser' methods used...much lesser. My father was a WWII vet and I have a brother who spent 13mos in 'Nam as a Marine...there IS no comparison between what was done/shown here and what was perpetrated on our vets in WWII and Vietnam.

GG

437 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:50:18pm

re: #415 zombie

You have 9 lives.
Glad you made it.

438 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:50:20pm
439 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:51:29pm

re: #415 zombie

And in case anyone's curious: I've been "waterboarded" (or the equivalent of) three times in my life, so I know all too well the experience of feeling like I'm drowning:

Once, in seventh grade, during the school swimming class, when a group of bullies pushed me to the bottom of the pool and literally stood on my head for well over a minute, just for sadistic fun. I was inhaling water and definitely thought I was drowning.

Once when I was a toddler when my older brother tried to drown me in the bathtub (he resented that I had been born and wanted the interloper out of the way).

And once when I tried to swim in an extremely cold swimming pool and had my muscles freeze up on me and sank to the bottom before being rescued.

In all three cases, I didn't merely feel like I was about to drown -- I was drowning. Luckily, in all three cases I survived. But I know the experience well. And even with that knowledge, I'd choose the experience over having real permanent injuries and unbearable pain (i.e. "real" torture) inflicted on me.

* * * *
You are one tough Zombie! No wonder you are fearless in all your pursuits.

440 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:51:46pm

re: #315 formercorpsman

Or he might be grateful.

To be fair, she is an attractive, spirited woman. She is in her 60s, and I don't think she seems anywhere near her actual age. She still drives me nuts, but still. To each, his own.

441 zombie  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:51:50pm

Real torture is so unbearable, you wish you were dead.

Waterboarding is so unpleasant, you wish you would remain alive.

That's the difference. Torture makes you want to die. Waterboarding makes you want to live.

442 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:51:51pm

re: #438 Iron Fist

Don't forget that they also freaked out because they had pretty women standing to close to them. I'd say what I think they should do, but Charles would prefer I didn't. Suffice it to say that they'd look back on the days when they were tortured by pretty women standing too close to them with longing.

I usually pay about $40 for that, and call it a lap dance, but I digress.

LOL........

443 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:02pm

re: #392 Cognito

I know that because it's obvious.


"I think, therefore I know."
/Cognito

By the way, I have given up on you providing any justification of your "experience" or "training". Perhaps you should give up presenting yourself as an expert in this field?

444 Alcove-One  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:05pm

My...how dramatic.
Did he think he was going to get a buzz from it?
It's not supposed to be "no big deal".
It lis fast acting and eaves no marks and inflicts no pain or death but is very unpleasant and fear inducing and no one wants to go through it a second time. Sounds like the perfect interrogation technique to me.

445 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:08pm

To all Lizards, I am out of here or I'll fall asleep.
Behave, everyone. See you all tomorrow.
Love y'all, mostly.

446 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:29pm

re: #422 Syrah

According to the Geneva Conventions , if your not in uniform and you are hiding behind civilians, you are to be killed on the spot because of the danger you pose to humanity. This would mean our military would take no prisoners. A policy that is perceived by the enemy as take no prisoners would result in every one of them fighting to the death and never surrending, that would create more US causlities.

447 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:31pm

re: #431 NelsFree

"Your point is beside the point".
I'm not sure whether to hug you, or go for a beer. Which side of your point is my point? Left or right? Could mine be above or below? Why are you being so two-dimensional?
/h

I'm an ex-English teacher, that's why!

448 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:38pm

re: #415 zombie

That's rough.

Worst experience I ever had was almost being swept under at Coney Island beach. My father grabbed me but I had already swallowed and inhaled some water. I was about 5 years old.

449 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:45pm

re: #415 zombie

I've been held down by 12 foot waves for too long..........paddled back out.
Water would drip out of my nose hours after. Still paddle back out.

450 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:53:58pm

re: #445 callahan23

To all Lizards, I am out of here or I'll fall asleep.
Behave, everyone. See you all tomorrow.
Love y'all, mostly.

Have a good one Callahan.

451 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:04pm

re: #445 callahan23

To all Lizards, I am out of here or I'll fall asleep.
Behave, everyone. See you all tomorrow.
Love y'all, mostly.

See you later Callahan.....
Don't get sleep deprived.
:)

452 callahan23  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:15pm

I am currently suffering of sleep deprivation. TORTURE

453 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:40pm

re: #445 callahan23

Night! Sleep well.

454 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:47pm

re: #445 callahan23

To all Lizards, I am out of here or I'll fall asleep.
Behave, everyone. See you all tomorrow.
Love y'all, mostly.

{Callahan}

455 3 wood  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:47pm

Another bank failed today:
Strategic Capital Bank in Illinois 35th Shut in 2009

May 22 (Bloomberg) -- Strategic Capital Bank of Champaign, Illinois, was closed by regulators, pushing the toll of failed U.S. lenders to 35 this year amid the longest recession since the 1930s.

Strategic Capital, with assets of $537 million and deposits of $471 million, was shut by the Illinois Department of Financial and Professional Regulation and the Federal Deposit Insurance Corp. was named receiver, the FDIC said in a statement. The bank’s deposits were assumed by Midland States Bank of Effingham, Illinois.

456 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:48pm

re: #452 callahan23

I am currently suffering of sleep deprivation. TORTURE

All newborns are torturers!

457 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:54:56pm

re: #389 MadNachos

What we really need to do is say we don't torture, then just do it anyway when required.

Right, Under the right circumstances I'm willing to bet even the swiss would break a few kneecaps. I'm pretty sure every country in the world tortures at some point or another.

Where things went south for the US was when Bush got the OLC and DOJ involved in providing legal justification for torture and made a big production of making torture official US policy. It should never have been policy. It should have been something done counter to policy out of necessity.

458 lawhawk  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:55:05pm

re: #17 Charles

Waterboarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

As for the argument that it doesn't cause permanent harm -- it absolutely can cause death by stress-induced heart attack. When Christopher Hitchens did his experiment, he had to sign a waiver holding harmless the people who administered it, for that reason. It's serious business.

You're right it's serious business, which is also why it was used on two individuals, for a grand total of five sessions before the plug was pulled on the technique. Those individuals: Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, Abu Zubaydah.

Zubaydah apparently gave up intel on how to find Ramzi Binalshibh. KSM gave up intel on the followup plans to 9/11 including Operation Bojinka.

The tradeoff between getting that intel quickly and hoping beyond hope that these jihadis will give up the intel under the comfy chair is a tough decision and one that was not made lightly.

It was still the right thing to do, Mancow notwithstanding. The problem that remains is if this technique and all the other extraordinary interrogation techniques are taken off the table is that should the ticking time bomb scenario come to pass, how exactly are we supposed to shake that information loose from suspects who have information to stop the attack? Tickle 'em with feathers?

The real issue isn't waterboarding, but how best to shake intel from those who have information we need in a timely fashion. Waterboarding is the most controversial technique, but it's not the only one. What techniques are the left going to find acceptable? Any?

The fact is that Pelosi and other Democrats had no problem when informed of this very scenario when the CIA did pick up KSM and Abu Zub. They knew that these techniques were used in very limited circumstances and appears to have yielded good intel. They want to label this torture all while claiming that they didn't know and wouldn't have approved (hypocrites one and all who did so out of partisan politics and not national security - their decision to assent was national security bipartisanship; their actions thereafter was rank hyperpartisanship).

Heck, I've seen people claim that listening to my music playlist is torture - considering that it contains Metallica, NIN, and other heavy metal, industrial, and hard rock acts. Play it at 120db, and you might have lasting and permanent hearing damage; play it 24/7/365, and you might drive a terrorist loony, or at least seriously sleep deprive the terrorist. Will that give intel in any way that's better or more timely than the waterboarding that apparently did work?

459 ArmyWife  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:55:15pm

re: #455 3 wood

I'm getting worried. This President is an idiot. There, I said it.

460 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:55:39pm

re: #452 callahan23

I am currently suffering of sleep deprivation. TORTURE

If we force you to stay on and keep posting President Obama will sic his attorney general on us.....
/

461 Canoe Train  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:55:47pm

re: #264 DEZes

hahaha LOL!

462 zombie  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:56:52pm

re: #427 ArmyWife

Oh Zombie, what an experience.

re: #433 Cognito

That's rough, Zombie.

re: #437 DEZes

You have 9 lives.
Glad you made it.

Hey, compared to most people's "danger" experiences, those were pretty mild. I don't think mine were that harrowing. Other people have been shot at, been in high-speed crashes, gotten horrific diseases, been beaten up, etc. etc. -- none of which have happened to me. I think I'd had a pretty cushy life, all in all. That wasn't a sob story, just an explanation that I've experienced the "waterboarding sensation" before.

463 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:56:55pm

OT

PBS is showing excerpt of a documentary about Saudi Arabians returned to Saudi Arabia after their time at GITMO. Rememember the Saudis claim to have a jihadi re-entry therapy program.
They look pretty happy for having been at GITMO "in solitary confinement for 6 years" says the narrator.

They are asked what is their definition of "jihad".
Their crime was to join Al Qaeda without the King of Saudi Arabia's permission!


Why did they go on jihad? "Because the pictures of Abu Ghraib. I had to defend my muslim brothers"

Jim Lehrer just advertised this is coming up on PBS stations soon.

464 Cognito  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:57:12pm

re: #443 NelsFree

"I think, therefore I know."
/Cognito

By the way, I have given up on you providing any justification of your "experience" or "training". Perhaps you should give up presenting yourself as an expert in this field?

I suggest you merely stop

1) shaving quotes to suit your taste, rather than the truth, and
2) stop making things up. I've not presented myself as an "expert in this field."

Now of course, if you feel I've said something incorrect about waterboarding -- then by all means, have out with it. Otherwise, no, I'm not going to wax on about personal details. Sorry.

465 onepistoffyid  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:58:11pm

I agree with Charles in that it is most definitely torture, but then again, so is looking out the window of an aircraft as it hurtles towards the Manhattan skyline.

466 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:58:18pm

02:51 Syria FM: Israel`s offer of peace for the sake of peace is laughable (Reuters

And so is the Idea of giving back the Golan to a bunch of murdering terrorists like you. Choke on that joke putz!

467 curt9988  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:58:24pm

Well, golly ... if Mancow says it's torture that pretty much settles it, huh?

468 Lincolntf  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:58:53pm

re: #441 zombie

It seems obvious that most of the people who want to define waterboarding as torture (in the same league as real torture like shattering bones, raping with implements, burning with acid, etc.) just want to have an easy catch-all word with which they can equate the U.S. with the Spanish Inquisition or some other easily relatable nightmare of history.
Some might really believe it, but most are politically motivated.
There are none so blind as those who will not see.

469 NelsFree  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:58:57pm

Okay, I'm outta here, after...

Cattttt: *hug*

Albusteve: *pat on back*

Cognito: *WHACK!*

to The Rest: G'nite

470 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:59:02pm

re: #458 lawhawk

Could provide quite a long list of alternative methods of interrogation.

Is a punch in the nose, "torture"?

The debate is absurd on so many levels.

471 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 4:59:47pm

re: #417 LGoPs

We would not be using anything like this against lawful, uniformed soldiers of an opposing nation. And we would expect the same in return from those nations.
The fucks we are using this against don't adhere to any of the laws of warfare and certainly have no qualms in torturing our prisoners for sheer pleasure.
They are animals and should direct some of their prayers to Allah in thanks that their opponent is as fucking benevolent as we are. What they deserve is for us to go Roman on their ass,

I'm (at least in part) thinking about future wars.

472 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:00:41pm

re: #103 vagabond trader

Hi, affinity.

473 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:09pm

Is there a definitive definition of "torture"? Is is merely causing unpleasant physical sensations? If so, then certainly waterboarding is torture. But so is sleep deprivation. So is imprisoning someone in any jail cell. Or even just giving them a scratchy blanket to sleep on.

I'm not saying this to try to reduce this issue to absurd simplicity. Quite the contrary. I've always felt that making the blanket statement that "torture is wrong and we must not do it" is overly simplistic to the point of being indefensible. Of course it's acceptable under some circumstances to cause discomfort to someone if it would save innocent lives. I think it would be foolish to argue otherwise. The question is how and when is it acceptable, and that's not an easy question to answer.

474 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:35pm

re: #462 zombie

I came close to drowning only once, saving a close friend that was drowning.
It was stupid of me to go in after him, but I did it anyway.

475 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:48pm

You know also on that list of torture banned by President Obama; putting a catapiler in a enclosed area with a detainee. A point overloked in this is that the CIA had to get fucking permission before they could do this.

476 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:48pm

In other words, vagabond trader is a sock puppet, right?

477 dapperdave  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:49pm

Just think, a terrorist felt a little uncomfortable for a short period of time so another human being could live, I don't call that torture I call that effective!

478 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:01:58pm

re: #471 Conservative Moonbat

I'm (at least in part) thinking about future wars.

And in future wars, against lawful military forces, my point stands. For legitimate prisoners of war the Army Field Manual uses essentially the name, rank and serial number routine.
For rabid animals the rules need to be different.

479 3 wood  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:02:04pm

re: #459 ArmyWife

I'm getting worried. This President is an idiot. There, I said it.

The problem with people like him, is they conclude that the reason why their polices don't work is that they have not been tried hard enough.

480 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:02:11pm

Let's see here. I did a quick search--typing in "Abu Ghraib torture" and came up with over 8.6 million hits. So apparently there are degrees of torture, or, there is torture and then there is torture, or, somebody's lying.

481 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:02:17pm

re: #462 zombie

Hey, compared to most people's "danger" experiences, those were pretty mild. I don't think mine were that harrowing. Other people have been shot at, been in high-speed crashes, gotten horrific diseases, been beaten up, etc. etc. -- none of which have happened to me. I think I'd had a pretty cushy life, all in all. That wasn't a sob story, just an explanation that I've experienced the "waterboarding sensation" before.

:) Try "keelhaulling" yourself across a lake on a stand up skidoo while you are too dead drunk to standup or balance sometime, that's one I almost didn't survive...

482 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:02:55pm

re: #474 DEZes

I came close to drowning only once, saving a close friend that was drowning.
It was stupid of me to go in after him, but I did it anyway.

In situations like that, you do first and think later.

483 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:03:02pm

re: #446 screaming_eagle

According to the Geneva Conventions , if your not in uniform and you are hiding behind civilians, you are to be killed on the spot because of the danger you pose to humanity. This would mean our military would take no prisoners. A policy that is perceived by the enemy as take no prisoners would result in every one of them fighting to the death and never surrending, that would create more US causlities.

The point is what they know, that makes their continued life worth more TO US than their immediate death.

484 Claire  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:03:10pm

Torture? Maggots in his one cup of rice a day for a year? No. Shit in the corner of his cell? No. Festering wounds that go sepsis? No. Broken bones? No. Watching his friends put up against a wall and shot? No.

Lets see- they waterboarded him with doctors present, then probably sent him back to his nice clean cell for a nice Halal dinner and a clean set of Jammies since he peed in the other ones. Other than an acute adrenaline release and a racing heart, he's unharmed.

In the situation we were in at the time in 2002, and the fact that this was a big Kahuna, they could have pulled out his fingernails or anything else they felt like doing to get him to talk as far as I'm concerned.

485 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:03:33pm

re: #476 Catttt

In other words, vagabond trader is a sock puppet, right?

Confirmed.

486 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:03:59pm

re: #480 solomonpanting

Let's see here. I did a quick search--typing in "Abu Ghraib torture" and came up with over 8.6 million hits. So apparently there are degrees of torture, or, there is torture and then there is torture, or, somebody's lying.

That many hits must constitute torture.
/

487 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:04:09pm

re: #475 screaming_eagle

Obama banned putting a person in an enclosed space with a caterpillar? A non-biting caterpillar?

On "Fear Factor," people used to climb into plastic coffins full of enormous hairy biting spiders and scorpions and things. I think that anything that people did on "Fear Factor" should not be considered illegal torture.

488 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:04:13pm

Italian carmaker Fiat SpA said in court papers on Friday that it is "already concerned" about the "deteriorating value" of Chrysler's assets and that a U.S. district court should not obstruct its sale process.

[Link: www.forexpros.com...]

Then cut your loses and back out. I would.

489 Canoe Train  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:05:22pm

This would constitute torture, along with watching innocent people have to choose between jumping and having a few seconds of clean breath before death or being incinerated:

Waterboarding is far more mild.

490 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:05:28pm

re: #488 Nevergiveup

Italian carmaker Fiat SpA said in court papers on Friday that it is "already concerned" about the "deteriorating value" of Chrysler's assets and that a U.S. district court should not obstruct its sale process.

[Link: www.forexpros.com...]

Then cut your loses and back out. I would.

And Fiat is a world class expert on deteriorating values, ask the man who's owned one!

491 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:05:33pm

re: #473 Last Mohican

Is there a definitive definition of "torture"? Is is merely causing unpleasant physical sensations? If so, then certainly waterboarding is torture. But so is sleep deprivation. So is imprisoning someone in any jail cell. Or even just giving them a scratchy blanket to sleep on.

I'm not saying this to try to reduce this issue to absurd simplicity. Quite the contrary. I've always felt that making the blanket statement that "torture is wrong and we must not do it" is overly simplistic to the point of being indefensible. Of course it's acceptable under some circumstances to cause discomfort to someone if it would save innocent lives. I think it would be foolish to argue otherwise. The question is how and when is it acceptable, and that's not an easy question to answer.

You have to wonder if that isn't the goal for some people- to define torture down to the point where it's meaningless. Is punishing a person guilty of a crime "torture"? Perhaps making a child clean their room is torture. Making adults work to provide for themselves is torture. It gets to a point where defining down the concepts (crime/punishment/etc.) leads to anarchy.

492 LGoPs  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:05:45pm

re: #473 Last Mohican

Is there a definitive definition of "torture"? Is is merely causing unpleasant physical sensations? If so, then certainly waterboarding is torture. But so is sleep deprivation. So is imprisoning someone in any jail cell. Or even just giving them a scratchy blanket to sleep on.

I'm not saying this to try to reduce this issue to absurd simplicity. Quite the contrary. I've always felt that making the blanket statement that "torture is wrong and we must not do it" is overly simplistic to the point of being indefensible. Of course it's acceptable under some circumstances to cause discomfort to someone if it would save innocent lives. I think it would be foolish to argue otherwise. The question is how and when is it acceptable, and that's not an easy question to answer.

Which is why the Bush Administration twisted itself into pretzels studying the issue and then administering it under almost laboratory level controlled conditions. They should be getting kudos for that, not the back stabbing, hyperpartisan, self serving criticism they are getting.

493 3 wood  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:06:02pm

Interesting article, this:
Gay Curriculum Proposal Riles Elementary School Parents

A group of parents in a California school district say they are being bullied by school administrators into accepting a new curriculum that addresses bullying, respect and acceptance -- and that includes compulsory lessons about the lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender community that will be taught to children as young as 5 years old.

The parents from the Unified School District in Alameda, a suburb of San Francisco and Oakland, say these issues are best learned at home and most definitely are not age-appropriate for elementary school children.

The parents are also angry that they will not be allowed to keep their children out of the classes.

“I believe these children are far too young to be learning about what these issues mean,” said Alaina Stewart, who has three children who attend elementary school in Alameda. “These are adult issues and they are being thrust upon the children.”

But the school board says otherwise, and its attorneys say that if the curriculum is adopted, the parents will have no legal right to remove their children from class when the lessons are being taught.

494 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:06:12pm

re: #487 Last Mohican

Obama banned putting a person in an enclosed space with a caterpillar? A non-biting caterpillar?

On "Fear Factor," people used to climb into plastic coffins full of enormous hairy biting spiders and scorpions and things. I think that anything that people did on "Fear Factor" should not be considered illegal torture.

** * * *
Rod Blagoyevich's wife is going to go on some reality show, taking torture for a buck.

495 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:06:20pm

re: #483 itellu3times

The point is what they know, that makes their continued life worth more TO US than their immediate death.

I'm not for using the Geneva Conventions.

496 Nevergiveup  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:06:21pm

Lawmakers appealed to the Obama administration on Friday to slow down the restructuring of General Motors and Chrysler, wary of shuttered car dealerships, job losses and the big unknown of a GM bankruptcy.
"We are asking President Obama to call 'time-out' on his automobile task force," said Rep. Steve LaTourette, R-Ohio.

[Link: www.breitbart.com...]

Sorry run away socialism doesn't slow down for anything.

497 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:07:29pm

re: #491 Sharmuta

You have to wonder if that isn't the goal for some people- to define torture down to the point where it's meaningless. Is punishing a person guilty of a crime "torture"? Perhaps making a child clean their room is torture. Making adults work to provide for themselves is torture. It gets to a point where defining down the concepts (crime/punishment/etc.) leads to anarchy.

* * * **
Hasn't capitalism been defined down as torture in the last 5 months, and banned?///sarc

498 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:07:35pm

Martyr cookies!

499 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:07:52pm

re: #485 Gus 802

Confirmed.

These people need another hobby.

500 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:08:21pm

re: #499 Catttt

These people need another hobby.

A 4000 karma sock puppet?

501 MacGregor  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:09:05pm

Here's a NAVY seal being waterboarded. (08:45) When we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?

502 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:09:28pm

re: #499 Catttt

These people need another hobby.

Yeah, I think so.

Guess they have an open door policy at "The Mental Unhealth Clinic." They've just taken in another patient.

503 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:09:38pm

re: #446 screaming_eagle

According to the Geneva Conventions , if your not in uniform and you are hiding behind civilians, you are to be killed on the spot because of the danger you pose to humanity. This would mean our military would take no prisoners. A policy that is perceived by the enemy as take no prisoners would result in every one of them fighting to the death and never surrending, that would create more US causlities.

It does pose a problem. The non-uniformed combatant especially so.

It is an asymmetry problem.

The enemy that chooses to not wear a uniform benefits from our unwillingness to make it too unpleasant for him to be willing to do.

If we allow them to violate the rule of sanctuary, then sanctuary is mocked, worse, used as a weapon that only the enemy can use against us.

This is a problem for all civilized people. Can we allow the enemy to violate and nullify the rule of sanctuary because we lack the will to enforce it?

How does that serve civilization?

504 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:09:55pm

Declaring two things:
1. Defining torture is ... torture
2. FNDT!

505 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:10:02pm

re: #501 MacGregor

Here's a NAVY seal being waterboarded. (08:45) When we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?

* * * *
You're pointing out "an inconvenient truth."

506 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:10:29pm

re: #504 Thanos

Declaring two things:
1. Defining torture is ... torture
2. FNDT!

well said amigo...lets get to it

507 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:10:43pm

re: #459 ArmyWife

I'm getting worried. This President is an idiot. There, I said it.

You feel better now? I certainly don't.

508 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:10:56pm

re: #499 Catttt

These people need another hobby.

I checked their latest thread, and there he was. There are like five commenters, making all the posts. Few post anything with any content. Echo chamber. No arguing! No agreeing to disagree! Just lots of false cheer and a nasty kind of hatred and yuckiness there.

509 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:11:11pm

re: #495 screaming_eagle

I'm not for using the Geneva Conventions.

Didn't think you were.

The point is, if you want info, you might offer them life - in contrast to whatever coercions you also put them through. Good cop / bad cop.

It's not in our interest to do "real" torture, and it is of course an abomination if we ever had our people torture low-value prisoners for no reason at all, or as a matter of policy for all.

OTOH, I suggest a quick questioning and a quick execution, might be the best disposition for a lot of these guys. Maybe that's what Obambi is trying to work himself up to, make his leftard buddies really happy - not.

510 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:11:26pm

I need to go to the store. Out of soda!

511 UncleRancher  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:11:27pm

Did he die?
Was he burned?
Was he scarred?
Were any bones broken?
Did his blood O2 level actually drop?
Did he lose any fingernails?
Did he lose any of his fingers or toes?
Did he lose his nose?
Was his hearing damaged?
Did he go hungry?
Did he lose any hair?

If there was no trauma there was no torture.

512 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:11:54pm

re: #503 Syrah

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." ---George Orwell

513 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:12:14pm

re: #501 MacGregor

Here's a NAVY seal being waterboarded. (08:45) When we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?

Yes, it's a standard part of SERE training, right? I think that underscores that it's unacceptable to define "torture" as "any unpleasantness." It leads to absurd conclusions.

514 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:12:20pm

re: #476 Catttt

In other words, vagabond trader is a sock puppet, right?

Doesn't matter now, he sleeps with the trollish fishes.

515 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:12:31pm

re: #510 Catttt

I need to go to the store. Out of soda!

Pick up some bourbon if you dont mind.

516 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:12:47pm

re: #500 DEZes

So it would seem.

517 Mad Mullah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:12:55pm

I definitely support the waterboarding of certain terrorists.

I've never been waterboarded (I'm not a terrorist or a talk show host), and I don't doubt that it is extremely uncomfortable (that is the point I believe), but I view it more as a simulation of torture rather than actual torture, where somebody might get random body parts chopped off.

518 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:13:30pm

re: #515 DEZes

Pick up some bourbon if you dont mind.

I'll be happy to, as long as I can put it right down again. :D

519 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:13:32pm

OT
Did anyone see footage of that speed reader on Capitol Hill, going through 999 pages of new environmental legislation perhaps reading it into the record, instead of posting it online so the whole country and other congressional people could read it for themselves?

Bet you not one person could understand the speed reader! That's what passes for brains under the Democrat Henry Waxman.

520 ihateronpaul  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:13:40pm

re: #6 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I agree. But why not call it torture when that is what it is? Conservatives seem to love "straight talk" unless it is an issue such as this.

521 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:14:18pm

re: #501 MacGregor

Here's a NAVY seal being waterboarded. (08:45) When we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?

Waterboarding Historically Controversial:

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

522 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:14:28pm

re: #501 MacGregor

Here's a NAVY seal being waterboarded. (08:45) When we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?

In my mind - no - just an experience of potential things to come - if you screw the pooch on your mission and get captured.

523 alegrias  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:14:33pm

Night all.

524 Greengolem64  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:14:46pm

re: #458 lawhawk

You're right it's serious business, which is also why it was used on two individuals, for a grand total of five sessions before the plug was pulled on the technique. Those individuals: Khalid Sheikh Mohammad, Abu Zubaydah.

The real issue isn't waterboarding, but how best to shake intel from those who have information we need in a timely fashion. Waterboarding is the most controversial technique, but it's not the only one. What techniques are the left going to find acceptable? Any?

We get down on our hands and knees and (praise Allah) ask them verrry verrry nicely...Please Mr. Terrorist...we don't want it to blow! Tell us where it is...we'll let you go!

525 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:15:10pm

re: #523 alegrias

Goodnight, alegrias. Sleep well.

526 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:15:13pm

re: #514 FurryOldGuyJeans

Doesn't matter now, he sleeps with the trollish fishes.

I reported his ass via the e-mail thingy over on the left. I almost never do that, but I thought Charles would want to know this guy is posting at stalker site.

527 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:15:13pm

Waterboarding is pure genius; think of it as a sort of jiu-jitsu for interrogators. Use the body against the mind; trick the brain into triggering a fight-or-flight struggle where no danger exists. This is one of the most amazing things imaginable - intellectually you know that there is no potential for real danger or lasting harm, and yet, the panic kicks in all the same, and the fear is strong enough to overcome your usual resistance to cooperation.

All this with no harm; the subject is simply scared by the treatment.

528 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:15:15pm

re: #523 alegrias

Night all.

Sleep well.

529 The_Vig  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:16:20pm

This debate has really got me thinking.
As a student of history, I have studied the darkest times in our past. When you think about all of the horrible things that have been done to extract information or vengeance from a captive....you have to look at things with a little perspective.

As a student of the martial arts I know how to inflict pain upon an opponent. To know this I had to experience it.

As an asshole I always feel the need to push it to see how much pain I could take. I think I have a pretty high pain tolerance. Hell I have chronic gout and I still eat meat. Life is pain.

As a philosopher I need to make an informed and rational decision. Extracting information from battlefield prisoners is important. Vital at times. Time is often of the essence and the only way to counter a prisoners natural inclination to resist his captors is the application of terror. Terror comes in many forms. Fear of impending torture in the past to fear of whatever we do to terrorists now. This debate has removed any fear from our enemies, time is on their side. Pressure is applied to the captive to counter his resistance. If you do it to me, will I think that it's torture? Are we going to go through every single way we interrogate our prisoners and decide if it is torture or not? We are removing our only high pressure tool of the interrogator, Fear of the Unknown.
Will there be a reason to capture prisoners, let alone question them? How will this affect our troops?

As a highlander I have died a thousand times and only fear the loss of my head.

In summation. I need to be water boarded to make any sort of rational decision about this debate. Even though my reasoning above would point to no one being water boarded to "see what it's like." The Genie is out of the bag. To that end, we must all take the time to be water boarded to keep this in the news cycle. Because if we don't, we will move on to the next form of coercion and then the next, until there is nothing left.
So, who wants to water board my ass on national TV?

530 Last Mohican  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:16:23pm

re: #517 Mad Mullah

I view it more as a simulation of torture rather than actual torture, where somebody might get random body parts chopped off.

Or, to frame it differently, it's a much milder form of torture than, say, inserting a ball covered with metal spikes into someone's bodily orifice, and then gradually expanding it until it's two feet in diameter.

And by the way, I think we should do that to terrorists, too, in a situation in which it's guaranteed to prevent ten nuclear bombs from being detonated in cities across America, and there's no less cruel way to do it.

531 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:16:59pm

re: #527 Guanxi88

Waterboarding is pure genius; think of it as a sort of jiu-jitsu for interrogators. Use the body against the mind; trick the brain into triggering a fight-or-flight struggle where no danger exists. This is one of the most amazing things imaginable - intellectually you know that there is no potential for real danger or lasting harm, and yet, the panic kicks in all the same, and the fear is strong enough to overcome your usual resistance to cooperation.

All this with no harm; the subject is simply scared by the treatment.

Not to be performed needlessly, nor treated as a sort of practical joke, though. It's an extreme measure for extreme circumstances.

532 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:17:15pm

re: #526 Catttt

I reported his ass via the e-mail thingy over on the left. I almost never do that, but I thought Charles would want to know this guy is posting at stalker site.

I would bet good money (now where the hell can anyone find THAT any more) Charles might already know that.

533 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:17:35pm

Some people seem to think I'm arguing that it shouldn't have been used against KSM and the other terrorists who were waterboarded.

I'm not. I think it was justified in those cases.

But I'm saying we need to stop denying that this IS torture. Our own government called it torture when it was practiced on captured US soldiers. It's torture. We should be clear about that and stop saying it's just a harmless little thing and only crybabies would complain about it.

534 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:18:24pm

This looks so extremely unprofessional
I know Hitchens is mentioned above like a million times
but here

look at the footage and only look at the difference in waterboarding technique and the appearance of professionalism(appearance I have no expertise in this so I can't really judge) in the Hitchens clip and the lack thereof in the Muller clip Muller just gets a water poured at his face from a large distance.

535 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:19:16pm

re: #459 ArmyWife

I'm getting worried. This President is an idiot. There, I said it.

An intelligent articulator ... totally ignorant on anything pertaining to military science and tactics especially in intel/counterintel.

That he seems to not take the advice of military experts is more than troubling.

536 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:19:28pm

re: #532 FurryOldGuyJeans

I would bet good money (now where the hell can anyone find THAT any more) Charles might already know that.

Gold? (possible semi-answer to parenthetical question)

OK, maybe I was the last to know. I admit I'm not up on this sock puppet stuff, and I only go to stalker sites rarely, stick my toe in to see if they are still nuts, then run.

537 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:20:34pm

re: #485 Gus 802

Confirmed.

v.t. had a lot of karma to his name before his ugly post here. I do recall seeing him post here before. I don't recall him being among the worse members of our little green apple-cart, insidious or not, so I'm disappointed that the Conqueror Worm got to him too.

On that topic, I see I've coined a phrase that "The Sneak" has been employing for the posters at her asylum. I suppose I should thank her for pointing out where I used an inappropriate adjective for the metaphor.

Also, if I might advise the stalkers, insofar as "baiting Zimriel" goes, this attempt is pretty lame. Bad apples really can be insidious. Bite into one which you think is nice, and it turns out to be rotted hollow on the inside.

Not that this should apply to anyone on "The Sneak's" site, of course./

538 Catttt  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:20:55pm

re: #459 ArmyWife

I'm getting worried. This President is an idiot. There, I said it.

The good news - under the premise that President O is such (not saying I agree or don't agree), we have had idiot Presidents before, and we survived them.

539 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:21:06pm

re: #503 Syrah

Because the left wants to tie America's hands. The Geneva Conventions also says prisoners can be held until the end of the war. While that sounds good what happens if al-loonies declare they surrender and will stop the violence agaisnt the USA. We are then required to release all prisoners; and the loons decide to start the war all over again.

540 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:22:11pm

Another thing that distinguishes the technique from more brutal and primitive methods is the clinical care used in its administration. The subject is reassured he will not die, nor be allowed to suffer harm (hence, the medic's presence). It's terrifying, to be sure, but it avoid being altogether Dark-Side because it cannot kill.

Mock-executions (line up, firing squad, blanks or deliberate miss; nasty indeed) however, are a different matter. The potential for harm is there, of course, as is the apparent desire to inflict death. A very different technique, and barbaric in the extreme, even if it leaves no marks.

541 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:23:29pm

re: #509 itellu3times

I happen to agree with the Bush admin.

Real TORTURE requires INTENT.

542 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:23:40pm

re: #515 DEZes

Pick up some bourbon if you dont mind.

Yeah, that skull of Louis XVI has been scaring off the tourists...

543 spudly  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:23:45pm

Charles is right, a case can indeed be made, it's not black and white, but gray—since the GC only mentions "severe" harm. I think the GC is specifically vague since at the time it was written, most police departments (worldwide) were likely rougher on random perps than we are to the worst AQ bad guys, lol.

Waterboarding is certainly right at the edge of what US law might allow. I think the other EITs are not even close to the line.

544 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:23:50pm

re: #540 Guanxi88

It's terrifying, to be sure, but it avoid being altogether Dark-Side because it cannot kill.

That's not true. It absolutely can kill people -- in the case of the Gitmo interrogations, they had medical people standing by because there's a very real possibility that even healthy people can suffer heart attacks from the overwhelming panic reaction. This is NOT harmless.

545 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:24:16pm

re: #540 Guanxi88

making distinctions such as these, among different degrees and types of torture, is a nasty, nasty business, but necessary in these times. Anyone who tells you otherwise is either deranged, on the other side, or one of those fools who thinks it possible to get through life with one's ethical hymen intact.

546 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:25:02pm

re: #512 DEZes

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." ---George Orwell

Good one to remember!

547 The Shadow Do  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:25:04pm

re: #527 Guanxi88

Waterboarding is pure genius; think of it as a sort of jiu-jitsu for interrogators. Use the body against the mind; trick the brain into triggering a fight-or-flight struggle where no danger exists. This is one of the most amazing things imaginable - intellectually you know that there is no potential for real danger or lasting harm, and yet, the panic kicks in all the same, and the fear is strong enough to overcome your usual resistance to cooperation.

All this with no harm; the subject is simply scared by the treatment.

But, but you've given up the moral high ground! And besides it doesn't work!
/

548 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:25:44pm

re: #537 Zimriel

v.t. had a lot of karma to his name before his ugly post here. I do recall seeing him post here before. I don't recall him being among the worse members of our little green apple-cart, insidious or not, so I'm disappointed that the Conqueror Worm got to him too.

On that topic, I see I've coined a phrase that "The Sneak" has been employing for the posters at her asylum. I suppose I should thank her for pointing out where I used an inappropriate adjective for the metaphor.

Also, if I might advise the stalkers, insofar as "baiting Zimriel" goes, this attempt is pretty lame. Bad apples really can be insidious. Bite into one which you think is nice, and it turns out to be rotted hollow on the inside.

Not that this should apply to anyone on "The Sneak's" site, of course./

I don't recall much of anything about this VT person. Nothing out of the ordinary until now. I am not disappointed that "they" go in the long run. If they want to morph into being a weirdo then they should go and that place is perfect for them. There they can all be one big happy family and watch Hip-Hop videos, cheer Bob Jones, support Slobodan Milosevic, and make occasional veiled death threats and death wishes. Most of the time they spend by just cutting and pasting what they see here.

Flat Earthers.

549 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:26:37pm

re: #335 Russkilitlover

Wants to be banned.

He succeeded. Blocked, and comment deleted.

He could have said:
It's Jerusalem day. To learn more. see links here today while they're still up.
(Comment got deleted before I could get his link)
Then, interested lizards discuss the topic, and no one gets banned.

550 Wendya  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:27:17pm

re: #26 kawfytawk

My husband did this in SERE school....was it fun for him ...no....is he cowering in the corner talking to himself ...hell no

No one in his class suffered ill effects either

My husband went through SERE as well and he said the worst part for him was either the perceptual isolation - being stuck in a little concrete box with lights and noise 24/7 or chow time when they had to suck down mushy rice and rancid sardines in just seconds or risk punishment. Waterboarding was not at the top of the list.

551 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:27:23pm

re: #544 Charles

That's not true. It absolutely can kill people -- in the case of the Gitmo interrogations, they had medical people standing by because there's a very real possibility that even healthy people can suffer heart attacks from the overwhelming panic reaction. This is NOT harmless.

I don't mean to suggest that it is harmless by any means. You wouldn't need a medic there if it were wholly benign, and I sure as hell would not want it done to me. Panic can induce death from a cardiac incident - no denying it.

The point I was making is that the technique itself, performed correctly, is just about the closest thing possible to a technique for invoking the absolute animal fear of immediate death without, however, necessarily requiring the presence of a mechanism to cause that death.

This is what makes it at once refined and cruel. I hate that it is even considered as a tool, and regret the necessity for its use.

552 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:27:36pm

re: #549 Kosh's Shadow

He succeeded. Blocked, and comment deleted.

He could have said:
It's Jerusalem day. To learn more. see links here today while they're still up.
(Comment got deleted before I could get his link)
Then, interested lizards discuss the topic, and no one gets banned.

gotta make his cred for initiation to lgf2

553 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:28:04pm

re: #542 Zimriel

Yeah, that skull of Louis XVI has been scaring off the tourists...

Okay, I admit it, you lost me.

554 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:28:40pm

re: #527 Guanxi88

[...]intellectually you know that there is no potential for real danger or lasting harm[...]
All this with no harm; the subject is simply scared by the treatment.

This is simply not true people died during waterboarding in the past and with almost all the people that underwent waterboarding for training purposes stress levels where measured that exceeded that of people that underwent open heart surgery a very large percentage developed ptsd.

555 nyc redneck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:29:05pm

he suffered for 5 seconds and could immediately get up and complain abt. it.
ii is difficult for me to call it torture, given what the enemy does.
to stop the procedure of water boarding because we want to ingratiate ourselves to monsters who chop limbs, heads, and disembowel people is ridiculous.
we can coddle the savage jihadis w/ please and thank-you and our polite form of questioning could actually inspire the enemy to be more vicious.
or not. who knows.
they have been doing what they do since the 7th century.

556 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:29:36pm

re: #553 DEZes

Okay, I admit it, you lost me.

French Revolution reference.

/I know, it wasn't that hilarious

557 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:30:04pm

my second wife tortured me...I held my breath for 2 YEARS! while she shit all over me and drowned me in lies and deceit...I held my breath and persevered...I am the man I am today because of her

558 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:30:17pm

re: #533 Charles

Some people seem to think I'm arguing that it shouldn't have been used against KSM and the other terrorists who were waterboarded.

I'm not. I think it was justified in those cases.

But I'm saying we need to stop denying that this IS torture. Our own government called it torture when it was practiced on captured US soldiers. It's torture. We should be clear about that and stop saying it's just a harmless little thing and only crybabies would complain about it.

Charles - I may have missed out on a consensus of what defines torture. If so - so be it - we can argue what that is as much as we can what the definition of "is" is. Calling it torture when practiced on our soldiers by enemy captors - was political in my mind.

I volunteered to play with the big boys and got a piece of the USNs training around this back in the 60s at Little Creek VA. Rough? Hell yes. Scared? You bet.

Torture - eeehhh? I bear no scars from it.

559 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:30:37pm

re: #556 Zimriel

French Revolution reference.

/I know, it wasn't that hilarious

How does that tie in with bourbon?

560 DeathtotheSwiss  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:30:39pm

Charles, sorry for the offending comment.

561 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:30:47pm

re: #555 nyc redneck

NYC redneck! Good to see you! How's everything in your little corner of the world?

562 BlueCanuck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:31:40pm

re: #559 DEZes

How does that tie in with bourbon?

The french ruling families were the "Bourbons". The drink was named after them for their assistance in the revolution I think.

563 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:31:55pm

re: #544 Charles

That's not true. It absolutely can kill people -- in the case of the Gitmo interrogations, they had medical people standing by because there's a very real possibility that even healthy people can suffer heart attacks from the overwhelming panic reaction. This is NOT harmless.

OK - your point well taken.

564 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:31:57pm

re: #559 DEZes

How does that tie in with bourbon?

bourbon is actually French for 'buzz'...jus helping out

565 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:32:41pm

re: #562 BlueCanuck

The french ruling families were the "Bourbons". The drink was named after them for their assistance in the revolution I think.

Ah, thanks, my French history more than sucks.

566 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:33:34pm

re: #554 jantjepietje

This is simply not true people died during waterboarding in the past and with almost all the people that underwent waterboarding for training purposes stress levels where measured that exceeded that of people that underwent open heart surgery a very large percentage developed ptsd.

Again, the medic is there to preclude lasting damage to the extent possible. Stress levels on them are of course very high - that's the whole point of it. Remember, KSM told the ICRC that he was explicitly informed before the interrogation that he would not be exposed to danger of death or lasting physical harm, so the mens rea of torture was not present in the interrogators, and the subject knew it.

People died from the treatment, true, but then, those administering it were either careless, indifferent, or actively seeking the death of the subject; none of those conditions obtain in our use of the method.

PTSD for those waterboarded? Again, if conducted by a barbarian, quite possible. Not to dismiss it out of hand, but PTSD is about the best thing I can wish for in the case of people such as the THREE people on whom the procedure was used. They have nightmares and lasting psychological difficulties from it? Somehow, I'm still able to sleep at night.

567 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:33:41pm

re: #533 Charles

It's torture, but Mancow's still a wuss

568 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:33:59pm

re: #564 albusteve

bourbon is actually French for 'buzz'...jus helping out

Obama is actually French for [deleted].

569 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:34:17pm

re: #559 DEZes

How does that tie in with bourbon?

The House of Bourbon

570 Zimriel  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:34:41pm

re: #567 Thanos

It's torture, but Mancow's still a wuss

567 posts of haggling before we get to the obvious?
/now understands the Talmud

571 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:08pm

re: #539 screaming_eagle

Because the left wants to tie America's hands. The Geneva Conventions also says prisoners can be held until the end of the war. While that sounds good what happens if al-loonies declare they surrender and will stop the violence agaisnt the USA. We are then required to release all prisoners; and the loons decide to start the war all over again.

As it stands, they are non-state actors. They can't surrender as would a nation. Afaganistan fell. Iraq fell. Its uniformed military, such as they were were treated according to the rules of the convention.

The non-state non-uniofrmed actors in this conflict are another mater all together.

If we treat them as state actors with out a state, then we make a muddle of the whole thing again.

Non-state actors that are unwilling to wear the uniform or the insignias that are required must not be allowed to invalidate the rule of sanctuary.

The fault here is more with us then with them. They are doing what works while we are doing only what we can stomach.

Its like the problem with the pirates.

There is a way to make Piracy unthinkable. But the price is high.

572 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:13pm

re: #512 DEZes

"People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf." ---George Orwell

"You can't handle the truth".
--- Dick Cheney

573 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:17pm

re: #562 BlueCanuck

The french ruling families were the "Bourbons". The drink was named after them for their assistance in the revolution I think.

The drink is named after the county.

574 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:22pm

re: #569 OldLineTexan

The House of Bourbon

Thats not exactly Makers Mark. ;)

575 nyc redneck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:37pm

re: #561 pink freud

NYC redneck! Good to see you! How's everything in your little corner of the world?

hey pink,
it's planting season. you know what a nut i am for gardening.
i got the cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli and brussels sprouts in today.
and the petunias in the planters. and i've been spreading that truck load of
compost on the garden. i'm so tired. but i'm great.
how are you, pinky?

576 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:35:57pm

re: #568 screaming_eagle

Obama is actually French for [deleted].

re: #568 screaming_eagle

Obama is actually French for [deleted].

you can say it...it only hurts for a minute or so

577 cardiacmont  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:36:11pm

The argument isn't about whether water-boarding is harmless or torture.

The argument is about whether water-boarding is torture or an enhanced interrogation technique. These are the words that are in the public arena and these are the words that seem to have importance attached to them.

No question in my mind that water-boarding is not torture. It is an enhanced interrogation technique. My working definition, again, is:

It wasn't torture.

He wished it would end.

Torture makes you wish for the end.

578 The_Vig  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:36:12pm
579 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:36:19pm

re: #572 itellu3times

"You can't handle the truth".
--- Dick Cheney

And Jack Nicholson. :)

580 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:36:24pm

re: #559 DEZes

How does that tie in with bourbon?

Louis XVI was the last Bourbon King of France.

581 BlueCanuck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:36:57pm

re: #573 OldLineTexan

Thanks, was about to correct myself. Did a search on the name just now. Me and my preconceptions.....

582 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:37:03pm

re: #569 OldLineTexan

The House of Bourbon

some smart comes along and wrecks the whole thing with the truth...I tells ya

583 shiplord kirel  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:37:23pm

An irony:
Some think we would be justified in water-boarding terrorists to make them talk.
Others think we would be justified in water-boarding Mancow to make him shut up.

584 DeathtotheSwiss  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:37:27pm

re: #415 zombie

You're like Alvin from Seventh Son. Stay away from the water Zombie!

585 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:37:42pm

re: #571 Syrah

As it stands, they are non-state actors. They can't surrender as would a nation. Afaganistan fell. Iraq fell. Its uniformed military, such as they were were treated according to the rules of the convention.

The non-state non-uniofrmed actors in this conflict are another mater all together.

If we treat them as state actors with out a state, then we make a muddle of the whole thing again.

Muddling the contract is always a risky business as it leads to the contract having no meaning whatsoever at the extreme.

586 Randall Gross  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:38:09pm

re: #580 FurryOldGuyJeans

Louis XVI was the last Bourbon King of France.

And he drank Cognac, Hennessey mostly.

587 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:38:33pm

re: #541 screaming_eagle

I happen to agree with the Bush admin.

Real TORTURE requires INTENT.

I disagree with that.

Especially if it's me on the receiving end.

Bush admin was no less whimpy about what the real issues were, we had to wait for Cheney's speech yesterday for a real defense. Not that I agree with what even Cheney said 100%, but it was very well done even so, as regards what a real issue is, and what our real positions and interests are.

588 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:38:47pm

re: #582 albusteve

some smart comes along and wrecks the whole thing with the truth...I tells ya

You didnt think I was gonna fall for the buzz definition did ya?
;)

589 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:39:01pm

re: #568 screaming_eagle

Obama is actually French for [deleted].

It's Nigerian.

Once, an English missionary visited a Nigerian chief. "We come to bring you new farming methods and medicines" said the missionary. "Obama!" replied the chief enthusiastically. "We will only use a small portion of your lands for our farms and missions" the missionary continued. "Obama!" the chief exclaimed. "Now, let us go see your fine cattle herds" remarked the missionary. "We go" said the chief. "Take care not to tread in the Obama!"

/

590 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:39:05pm

here's where it all ends.....


[Link: www.imeem.com...]

591 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:39:10pm

re: #585 Sharmuta

Muddling the contract is always a risky business as it leads to the contract having no meaning whatsoever at the extreme.

And it is at the extremes where the contract needs to be most clear and meaningful.

592 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:02pm

re: #478 LGoPs

And in future wars, against lawful military forces, my point stands. For legitimate prisoners of war the Army Field Manual uses essentially the name, rank and serial number routine.
For rabid animals the rules need to be different.

I'm sure the Iranian Revolutionary Guard will make that distinction should they capture one of ours. I'm sure they won't take our treatment of prisoners into consideration at all.

593 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:06pm

re: #575 nyc redneck

hey pink,
it's planting season. you know what a nut i am for gardening.
i got the cabbage, cauliflower, broccoli and brussels sprouts in today.
and the petunias in the planters. and i've been spreading that truck load of
compost on the garden. i'm so tired. but i'm great.
how are you, pinky?

Brussels Sprouts! God love ya, kid! (I think Noam has some kick-ass recipe for grilling them, if you can ever weasel it out of him.)

Way back when you posted about having that load of compost dumped in your yard and the need to spread it, I laughed. I did the exact smae thing years ago when we bought our first house. It had to be carted wheelbarrow load by wheelbarrow load from the front to the back. I was out there at 4 am every morning until it was done, and I had the prettiest toned arms you've ever seen!

That kinda tired is a great feeling. All is peachy with me, just enjoying the lacka-stress that always accompanies the end of a semester. :-)

594 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:16pm

re: #588 DEZes

You didnt think I was gonna fall for the buzz definition did ya?
;)

I was gonna explain the anthology....I was!

595 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:18pm

re: #566 Guanxi88

Well then we differ on the point of empathy I know someone very close with PTSD and I wouldn't wish it on anyone not even a terrorist.

596 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:38pm

re: #571 Syrah

I concur. My points only are that the Geneva Conventions cuts both ways. It sounds good but has provisions in it that can be used against us. It was created for nations with standing armies.

597 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:44pm

re: #562 BlueCanuck

The french ruling families were the "Bourbons". The drink was named after them for their assistance in the revolution I think.

It was most likely named for Bourbon County, Kentucky, even though the actual origin is not very clear.

598 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:40:57pm

re: #594 albusteve

I was gonna explain the anthology....I was!

Well, it was kinda funny.

599 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:42:08pm

re: #593 pink freud

. . .
Way back when you posted about having that load of compost dumped in your yard and the need to spread it, I laughed. I did the exact smae thing years ago when we bought our first house. It had to be carted wheelbarrow load by wheelbarrow load from the front to the back. I was out there at 4 am every morning until it was done, and I had the prettiest toned arms you've ever seen! . . .

Hm.
Shoveling shit gave you toned arms.
Wonderin' if that's how Michelle got hers . . .

600 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:42:57pm

re: #586 Thanos

And he drank Cognac, Hennessey mostly.

What do you expect? He was effete, that there Frenchie. ;)

601 Velvet Elvis  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:43:02pm

re: #381 IslandLibertarian


Moral authority is a myth on the same level as creationism.

I chose to believe otherwise.

602 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:43:21pm

re: #591 Syrah

And it is at the extremes where the contract needs to be most clear and meaningful.

What worries me is this muddling will lead to a policy of dealing with this issue in the field- that is, we don't take them prisoner, if you catch my drift. It's possible valuable information that could save lives might be lost with this method. It's a difficult set of choices.

603 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:43:31pm

re: #597 FurryOldGuyJeans

It was most likely named for Bourbon County, Kentucky, even though the actual origin is not very clear.

?

Bourbon whiskey.

Regional style, mostly corn mash as opposed to rye, for example.

604 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:02pm

re: #599 reine.de.tout

Hm.
Shoveling shit gave you toned arms.
Wonderin' if that's how Michelle got hers . . .

Oh you are sooo bad, Reine!

/please don't evah draw a comparison 'tween me and WAB again! ;-)

605 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:12pm

re: #587 itellu3times

So sleep deprivation is torture?

606 Guanxi88  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:18pm

re: #595 jantjepietje

Well then we differ on the point of empathy I know someone very close with PTSD and I wouldn't wish it on anyone not even a terrorist.

It may be that you are correct; I am noted for a lack of empathy. The anguish caused by any mental condition in the case of anyone close to us can of course change our view of it.

Schizophrenia and autism, for example, gallop through my family, and I find myself perhaps overly sensitive on the subject. Given my own lack of empathy, it might be that my feelings on the subject are in fact appropriate, as jokes about schizophrenics are not high on my chuckle list.

My best wishes to you and to the one you know with PTSD, and my most sincere apologies if I belittled the condition.

607 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:46pm

re: #604 pink freud

Oh you are sooo bad, Reine!

/please don't evah draw a comparison 'tween me and WAB again! ;-)

tee-hee.
So sorry, pinky!

608 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:58pm

re: #521 Charles

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."

Yes, I wouldn't like to waterboarded, for I'm sure it's terrifying. But, if breaking one's will and hurting morale are the major consequences, then terrorists subjected to this treatment could suffer a far worse fate.

609 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:44:58pm

re: #605 screaming_eagle

So sleep deprivation is torture?

Sure seem like it on Monday mornings. ;)

610 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:45:21pm

re: #599 reine.de.tout

Hm.
Shoveling shit gave you toned arms.
Wonderin' if that's how Michelle got hers . . .

Oh ...and besides, mine don't look like some 'ole emaciated chicken wings.

/that needed saying

611 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:45:25pm

Wonder where avanti is tonight....

I might've missed something, but he actually did the smart thing by not crediting 0bama with the strong start the market got off to earlier this week, because it's been going back down ever since.

Doesn't occur to most 0 supporters that if he gets the credit for every time the Dow Jones closes 50 points up, he also gets the blame for when it closes 200 points down.

612 Gus  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:45:28pm

Got to go get some "supplies."

Back later on...

613 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:45:55pm

re: #602 Sharmuta

What worries me is this muddling will lead to a policy of dealing with this issue in the field- that is, we don't take them prisoner, if you catch my drift. It's possible valuable information that could save lives might be lost with this method. It's a difficult set of choices.

That is- do we deal with the gray area of this contract in order to possibly save lives, or do we not muddle the contract and deal with these people under said contract and leave them on the field of battle?

614 nyc redneck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:45:58pm

re: #599 reine.de.tout

Hm.
Shoveling shit gave you toned arms.
Wonderin' if that's how Michelle got hers . . .

lol,
i doubt she would stoop to shoveling poop.
she's a gym rat.

615 IslandLibertarian  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:46:25pm

re: #601 Conservative Moonbat

I chose to believe otherwise.

Moral authority causing our enemies to change their evil ways is a myth on the same level as creationism.

is what I was aiming for...........

616 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:46:38pm

re: #614 nyc redneck

lol,
i doubt she would stoop to shoveling poop.
she's a gym rat.

You got that half right. ;)

617 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:47:25pm

re: #615 IslandLibertarian

I think it's even more destructive than creationism...

618 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:47:42pm

re: #616 DEZes

You got that half right. ;)

Oh! Oh! ....Am I sensing some barely repressed snarkiness towards WAB? LOL!

619 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:47:44pm

re: #614 nyc redneck

lol,
i doubt she would stoop to shoveling poop.
she's a gym rat.

Howa doin', NYC?

621 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:48:11pm

Killgore's thrifty gardening tip of the day.....
If you have a large area that you want to cover with flowers you can buy flax seed at the supermarket for something like $1.50 a pound. You'd pay that much for 20-30 seeds in a packet at the garden center. No watering once they spout and you'll have millions of lovely red flowers all summer long and even into late fall sometimes.

622 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:48:51pm

re: #614 nyc redneck

lol,
i doubt she would stoop to shoveling poop.
she's a gym rat.

O for a girl who shovels poop
Arms all toned; one that stoops
to the garden tasks at hand

623 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:49:02pm

re: #618 pink freud

Oh! Oh! ....Am I sensing some barely repressed snarkiness towards WAB? LOL!

Who, huh, what.
;)

624 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:49:16pm

re: #602 Sharmuta

What worries me is this muddling will lead to a policy of dealing with this issue in the field- that is, we don't take them prisoner, if you catch my drift. It's possible valuable information that could save lives might be lost with this method. It's a difficult set of choices.

A policy of take no prisoners is more than just a loss of information. It's a more bloody to the death fight for our troops.

625 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:49:37pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Thanks. I will have to give that one a try.

626 wrenchwench  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:49:51pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Killgore's thrifty gardening tip of the day.....
If you have a large area that you want to cover with flowers you can buy flax seed at the supermarket for something like $1.50 a pound. You'd pay that much for 20-30 seeds in a packet at the garden center. No watering once they spout and you'll have millions of lovely red flowers all summer long and even into late fall sometimes.

I guess the bag of flax seed meal I just bought won't do that.....

627 The Other Les  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:50:32pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Killgore's thrifty gardening tip of the day.....
If you have a large area that you want to cover with flowers you can buy flax seed at the supermarket for something like $1.50 a pound. You'd pay that much for 20-30 seeds in a packet at the garden center. No watering once they spout and you'll have millions of lovely red flowers all summer long and even into late fall sometimes.

Isn't flax a Discordian unit of currency?

628 Fenway_Nation  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:50:35pm

re: #620 The Other Les

That's awfully arrogant of you

///

629 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:50:59pm

it's time...
[Link: www.imeem.com...]

630 FurryOldGuyJeans  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:51:17pm

re: #611 Fenway_Nation

Wonder where avanti is tonight....

I might've missed something, but he actually did the smart thing by not crediting 0bama with the strong start the market got off to earlier this week, because it's been going back down ever since.

Doesn't occur to most 0 supporters that if he gets the credit for every time the Dow Jones closes 50 points up, he also gets the blame for when it closes 200 points down.

You haven't memorized the meme. Up = Obama, Down = Bush.

631 nyc redneck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:51:28pm

re: #619 reine.de.tout

Howa doin', NYC?

{reine}
i'm so tired in such a good way. i love hard work.
how's it w/ you?

632 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:51:44pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Killgore's thrifty gardening tip of the day.....
If you have a large area that you want to cover with flowers you can buy flax seed at the supermarket for something like $1.50 a pound. You'd pay that much for 20-30 seeds in a packet at the garden center. No watering once they spout and you'll have millions of lovely red flowers all summer long and even into late fall sometimes.

OK, I just grabbed this tip for the cookbook.
Just so you won't be surprised.

633 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:51:48pm

re: #626 wrenchwench

I guess the bag of flax seed meal I just bought won't do that.....

Just the flax.

634 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:52:08pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Texas used to give away sacks of wildflower seeds back in the day, but now you have to buy them. They don't last as long, but there are few things like a field of bluebonnets.

635 Sharmuta  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:52:13pm

re: #624 screaming_eagle

A policy of take no prisoners is more than just a loss of information. It's a more bloody to the death fight for our troops.

I would rather we deal with the gray area of an inferior agreement than risk the deaths of innocent people.

636 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:01pm

re: #631 nyc redneck

{reine}
i'm so tired in such a good way. i love hard work.
how's it w/ you?

Doing great.
Pink helped me with a problem that's looking like it's going to be OK.
Summer shaping up to be a good one.
Life is good.

637 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:26pm

re: #634 OldLineTexan

Texas used to give away sacks of wildflower seeds back in the day, but now you have to buy them. They don't last as long, but there are few things like a field of bluebonnets.

I love bluebonnets. I have some in my yard.

638 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:36pm

former president of South Korean just jumped off a cliff. checking fora link

639 wrenchwench  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:49pm

re: #633 DEZes

Just the flax, ma'am.

FTFY

640 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:53pm

re: #637 reine.de.tout

I love bluebonnets. I have some in my yard.

I have some in the fridge.

641 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:53:59pm

re: #635 Sharmuta

I would rather we deal with the gray area of an inferior agreement than risk the deaths of innocent people.

Done.
Geneva Conventions don't apply.

642 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:54:22pm

re: #640 DEZes

I have some in the fridge.

In your fridge?

643 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:54:23pm

re: #621 Killgore Trout

Killgore's thrifty gardening tip of the day.....
If you have a large area that you want to cover with flowers you can buy flax seed at the supermarket for something like $1.50 a pound. You'd pay that much for 20-30 seeds in a packet at the garden center. No watering once they spout and you'll have millions of lovely red flowers all summer long and even into late fall sometimes.

Same with taro root, found at most oriental grocers. Just a few will cover a dry or wet patch of bare earth with lacy colocasia -- member of the elephant ear family. Cost about 10$ per pot at the nursery.

644 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:54:37pm

re: #639 wrenchwench

FTFY

I didnt wanna call ya ma'am. ;)

645 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:55:10pm

re: #642 reine.de.tout

In your fridge?

Bad joke, Blue Bonnet is a margarine.

646 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:55:49pm

re: #643 pink freud

Same with taro root, found at most oriental grocers. Just a few will cover a dry or wet patch of bare earth with lacy colocasia -- member of the elephant ear family. Cost about 10$ per pot at the nursery.

And, if a bunch of hungry Polynesians show up at your door ... please, pass the poi!

/

647 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:55:49pm

re: #645 DEZes

Bad joke, Blue Bonnet is a margarine.

I should have gotten that! Sorry for being dense.

648 wrenchwench  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:55:55pm

re: #644 DEZes

I didnt wanna call ya ma'am. ;)

Ma'am is ok, just don't call me sir. :)

649 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:56:01pm

Looking at a few other sites and reading some opinions on the issue of torture, rendition and related politics, I see protests against the practice are becoming more muted (or selectively directed) from supporters of the current president. Here's Alex Massie of the Spectator on December 18, 2008:

There are all sorts of reasons for why Barack Obama may find it hard to close Gitmo quickly. But there's no reason at all - beyond finding the policy "useful" - for him to wait a single day before rescinding the Presidential orders authorising Extraordinary Rendition. Failure to do so will be a moral embarrassment, as well as a political and strategic blunder.[Link: www.debatableland.com...]

On May 13, Massie remains strong against torture, without mentioning the name Obama. Luckily he still has Karl Rove to talk about.
[Link: www.spectator.co.uk...]

650 Kosh's Shadow  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:56:19pm

re: #552 albusteve

gotta make his cred for initiation to lgf2

That has to be the easiest club to join. Kind of an example of a club I don't want to join, like Groucho Marx' joke.

651 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:56:27pm

re: #645 DEZes

Bad joke, Blue Bonnet is a margarine.

Everything's better with Blue Bonnet on it!

/

652 nyc redneck  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:57:13pm

i think her arms are a joke.
she has the personality AND the bony folded arms of a praying mantis.
i don't care what vogue magazine says.
there is no glamour there.

653 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:57:20pm

re: #606 Guanxi88

Thank you for your best wishes but I don't think I can accept you apologies because you don't owe me any :)
You didn't belittle the condition I think you just wished a very awful thing upon these people if your aware of the seriousness of the condition I can only say that part of you is very cruel indeed.

654 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:57:23pm

re: #648 wrenchwench

Ma'am is ok, just don't call me sir. :)

The net is funny, its hard to tell someones gender.
So I wont call you Shirley either. ;)

655 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:57:55pm

what is the purpose of corn silk?

656 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:57:59pm

re: #638 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Well, while you're here, Jewels, I will post this again in your honor (snitched from the LNDT, courtesy of Jewel's magnificent recipe collection).

"It's not dead yet" Hot Salsa
Serving Size : 1 Preparation Time :0:00
5 whole Habaneros -- seeded
10 whole tomatillos -- husked and rinsed
2 whole Vidalia onions -- skinned
6 whole sweet red peppers -- seeded
2 whole smoked Habaneros
3 whole chipolte peppers
1 Tablespoon cumin
2 ounces balsamic vinegar

Process ingredients in a blender individually in order listed until you reach the dried peppers and place in a non-reactive container. Place smoked habs and chipotles in blender and drain juice from mixture in bowl into the blender and process. Add to the mixture in the bowl. Add cumin and stir well.
Drizzle Balsamic vinegar over the top. Let marinate overnight. Best served warm

657 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:58:05pm

re: #602 Sharmuta

What worries me is this muddling will lead to a policy of dealing with this issue in the field- that is, we don't take them prisoner, if you catch my drift. It's possible valuable information that could save lives might be lost with this method. It's a difficult set of choices.

Which also escalates the problem that Screaming Eagle mentioned in #446 in that you want the enemy to think it is always in their best interest to throw their weapons to the ground and surrender at first chance, even to a passing news crew if one presents itself.

I think Screaming Eagle made a small mistake in #446 in that he made the statement that there is a Geneva convention requirement to execute combatants who are found out of uniform. I don't think that is so. I think the Geneva Conventions permit them to be executed summarily, but I don't think it requires it.

If captured, they live or die at our pleasure. It is still in their interest to beg for our mercy. We are most likely to give it, even if undeserved.

658 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:58:38pm

re: #608 solomonpanting

Yes, I wouldn't like to waterboarded, for I'm sure it's terrifying. But, if breaking one's will and hurting morale are the major consequences, then terrorists subjected to this treatment could suffer a far worse fate.

I posted that quote to respond to respond to MacGregor's question: "if we do this to our own troops in training, is it torture?"

I think the answer is clear from the quote I posted -- they discontinued the practice because it was so effective at breaking the will of our most elite soldiers. And the purpose of using it in the first place was to train them to resist torture if captured.

Our own government calls this torture, when it's used against our troops. Let's just admit that's what it is, instead of denying it and pretending it's nothing more than a little bit of water.

659 Teh Flowah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:58:39pm

re: #12 nikis-knight

Never heard of him, but if given the choice, I'll take water boarding over head chopping.
Strikes me that there is some analog between precision guided missles and 'torture' techniques that leave no lasting damage. Yeah, it's dirty work we shouldn't do if we can avoid it, but at least we're trying to minimize the collateral damage in each case.

Ugh. That's not the issue. The issue isn't "would you rather be X or get your head chopped off" I mean, would you rather have a hand chopped off, or your head? Does that mean your hand getting ripped off isn't torture? Of course not.

I'm just going to keep laughing at people trying to say waterboarding isn't torture.

660 reine.de.tout  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:58:58pm

re: #655 albusteve

what is the purpose of corn silk?

Makes a great face powder, they tell us.

661 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:59:08pm

re: #655 albusteve

It's the stigma of the female corn flower.

662 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:59:10pm

re: #647 reine.de.tout

I should have gotten that! Sorry for being dense.

Nah, your far from dense, it was a very tasteless joke.
Like Blue Bonnet.

663 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 5:59:31pm

The phone is ringing off the hook.

My absence is holding up a barbecue.

There is food to be eaten and beer to be drunk. I must do my part.

Back Later.

664 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:00:36pm

re: #653 jantjepietje

I'm sorry now I read this back it looks much more hostile than I intended it to be just be assuered that I'm not offended or angry with you

665 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:01:42pm

re: #664 jantjepietje

I'm sorry now I read this back it looks much more hostile than I intended it to be just be assuered that I'm not offended or angry with you

Are you arguing with yourself?
///

666 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:02:02pm

re: #655 albusteve

what is the purpose of corn silk?

They're part of the flower.

667 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:02:19pm

re: #660 reine.de.tout

Makes a great face powder, they tell us.

re: #660 reine.de.tout

Makes a great face powder, they tell us.

I use powdered peach pits...I'll investigate

668 Teh Flowah  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:02:54pm

re: #34 simonml

My dad was waterboarded during his military training. He said without a doubt that it is torture. He went on to add that if it saved American lives, it was definitely worth it.


This is an opinion I can respect. He won't lie about what it is, but he's not one of those so blinded by ideology that he would risk American lives for the sake of an imaginary moral high ground.

On the other hand, people running interference, trying to obfuscate the debate by saying it's NOT torture, are just a bunch of delusional fools.

The number of people on this site that for some reason don't seem to understand what waterboarding is, comparing it to getting water in your nose while swimming or some other similarly ludicrous comparison just serve as further evidence for the fringe status that people assign to this website.

669 MacGregor  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:03:03pm

re: #513 Last Mohican

Yes, it's a standard part of SERE training, right?

I don't know. One of the interviewees says it is, but Charles' referenced article asserts it's been discontinued. I could see how it would be bad for morale.

670 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:03:10pm

re: #666 OldLineTexan

They're part of the flower.

what is the purpose? farmacology speaking

671 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:03:24pm

uh oh....now comes the confusion as people try to figure out what happened. Some say it was poison, some saya stroke, other say he fell offa mountain. short form: guy is dead. this is going to make Korean news interesting

672 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:04:33pm

re: #661 jaunte

It's the stigma of the female corn flower.

okay...I notice almost every ear of corn has them

673 DEZes  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:04:45pm

re: #671 Jewels (AKA Julian)

"uh oh....now comes the confusion as people try to figure out what happened."

Agreed. ;)

674 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:04:55pm

and here we go

[Link: news.theage.com.au...]

675 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:06:23pm

re: #643 pink freud

That's a very good idea too. In the summer some Asian grocery stores will have fresh water chestnuts. They don't taste anything like the bland stuff you get out of a can. They're sweet and taste like an apple and a walnut. You can grow them in your backyard pond.
My local nurseries don't carry Soy seeds so I'm going to try sprouting soybeans from the grocery store. I bet it'll work.

676 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:06:38pm

re: #672 albusteve

Those females always get the good stuff. ;-)

677 jantjepietje  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:06:53pm

re: #665 DEZes
haha no
I'm adding something to my own post on the forum I'm on most of the time it is custom to reply to your self in this situation to indicate where the comment belongs with

678 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:07:10pm

re: #668 Teh Flowah

This is an opinion I can respect. He won't lie about what it is, but he's not one of those so blinded by ideology that he would risk American lives for the sake of an imaginary moral high ground.

On the other hand, people running interference, trying to obfuscate the debate by saying it's NOT torture, are just a bunch of delusional fools.

The number of people on this site that for some reason don't seem to understand what waterboarding is, comparing it to getting water in your nose while swimming or some other similarly ludicrous comparison just serve as further evidence for the fringe status that people assign to this website.

lighten up big shot...there are 600 posts on the topic...do you have something to add?

679 screaming_eagle  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:07:13pm

re: #657 Syrah

Which also escalates the problem that Screaming Eagle mentioned in #446 in that you want the enemy to think it is always in their best interest to throw their weapons to the ground and surrender at first chance, even to a passing news crew if one presents itself.

I think Screaming Eagle made a small mistake in #446 in that he made the statement that there is a Geneva convention requirement to execute combatants who are found out of uniform. I don't think that is so. I think the Geneva Conventions permit them to be executed summarily, but I don't think it requires it.

If captured, they live or die at our pleasure. It is still in their interest to beg for our mercy. We are most likely to give it, even if undeserved.

No mistake was made. Non-uniformed combants hiding behind civilians is required by the Geneva Conventions to be executed on the spot. They are a threat to civilized humanity as spelled out in the conventions. I am no expert on which article to find it under but it was one that jumped out at me a few years ago when I was re-reading them.

680 itellu3times  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:07:32pm

re: #605 screaming_eagle

So sleep deprivation is torture?

I could argue it either way. Depends on how long, how severe, what's the alternative, etc.

No easy answers.

On either side of the question.

681 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:07:54pm

re: #676 jaunte

Those females always get the good stuff. ;-)

there is no justice eh?

682 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:08:16pm

re: #676 jaunte

Those females always get the good stuff. ;-)

Yep. Men. ;-)

683 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:09:31pm

re: #681 albusteve

Move Every Zig for Great Justice

[Link: rmitz.org...]

684 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:10:22pm

re: #675 Killgore Trout

That's a very good idea too. In the summer some Asian grocery stores will have fresh water chestnuts. They don't taste anything like the bland stuff you get out of a can. They're sweet and taste like an apple and a walnut. You can grow them in your backyard pond.
My local nurseries don't carry Soy seeds so I'm going to try sprouting soybeans from the grocery store. I bet it'll work.

Thanks! I have a friend with a pond who would love to try this. I've got her growing the taro on the edges in the water and they do beautifully in the water.

Hmm ...soy ...I bet you're right about that.

685 albusteve  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:11:00pm

re: #683 Jewels (AKA Julian)

Move Every Zig for Great Justice

[Link: rmitz.org...]

ha!...been awhile

686 Gella  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:12:58pm

he is not in chicago market anymore, personally i can't stand his alter ego

687 SixDegrees  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:14:20pm

re: #17 Charles

Waterboarding is the only one of the "harsh interrogation techniques" used on terror suspects that I think you can make a real case to say it's torture.

The problem here, and the reason there's so much argument on this and other threads, is simple: there isn't any definition of what constitutes torture.

And worse, politicians want to keep it that way. It's easier for them if they can always deny that some particular technique is torture, or to claim that some particular technique is, depending on the point they're hoping to make.

If Congress were serious about ensuring that the US doesn't torture people, they would be working day and night to come up with a useful definition. That would end all debate instantly - once there's a definition, you can quibble over the definition itself, but meanwhile it allows you to categorize whatever technique is in question unambiguously as torture or not. Congress should be ashamed of itself for turning this very serious topic into a political football instead of knuckling down and doing it's job, which is to make the law that would state once and for all what is forbidden and what is permitted.

Even twisted liars like Pelosi, confronted with the fact that she was fully briefed on specific interrogation techniques and their use, can always claim, "Well, it didn't sound like torture to me, they way they presented it." She'll be off the hook thanks to Congress' lack of diligence on this issue, and both she and the rest of the Congress knows it, and wants to keep it that way. The lack of a simple, clear definition of what constitutes torture is a loophole big enough to drive a whole caravan of Congressional SUVs through.

688 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:18:12pm

re: #687 SixDegrees

The problem here, and the reason there's so much argument on this and other threads, is simple: there isn't any definition of what constitutes torture.

And worse, politicians want to keep it that way. It's easier for them if they can always deny that some particular technique is torture, or to claim that some particular technique is, depending on the point they're hoping to make.

Good observation. That fits with this:


"Mr. Obama’s campaign says he believes that President Bush has abused his powers in combating terrorists. But Greg Craig, a Washington lawyer designated by the Obama campaign to answer questions on presidential power, declined to offer an opinion on whether Mr. Bush had personally violated any laws as he moved to expand his executive authority."[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
689 SixDegrees  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:21:17pm

re: #679 screaming_eagle

No mistake was made. Non-uniformed combants hiding behind civilians is required by the Geneva Conventions to be executed on the spot. They are a threat to civilized humanity as spelled out in the conventions. I am no expert on which article to find it under but it was one that jumped out at me a few years ago when I was re-reading them.

I believe you are mistaken about this. I can find no such clause in any version of the Conventions, and it would appear to violate the entire spirit of the treaties.

But if you can locate such a clause, please post a link to it, along with any analysis backing up your statement if available.

690 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:21:33pm

re: #687 SixDegrees

Good points. I agree.

But in the case of waterboarding, I think we do have a working definition that describes it as torture -- the definition we apply when our own captured troops are subjected to it.

If our own government classifies this as torture when it's done to our troops by the Vietcong and the Japanese, and we try to use it to train Navy SEALs to resist torture, there's just no doubt -- it's torture.

That's why I keep imploring people to simply acknowledge this fact, and then we can deal with the important question, which is: are there times when it's justified to use this form of torture?

I agree with Charles Krauthammer (as usual) on this: there ARE extreme situations in which it's justified to use waterboarding. But we should go into it with our eyes wide open, knowing full well what we're doing, instead of ducking and dodging and denying the truth -- because that's how you get into big trouble.

691 code red 21  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:23:38pm

I haven't read all of the posts so I'm might be repeating something that's already been said. But what I would like to know is in place of water boarding how do we get info from people who in no way want to give it up because they fully intend on killing as many innocent people as possible? Is there a better way? Also, who among us sitting down to a holiday celebration, with our friends and loved ones, wouldn't do whatever it took to break the bastard that knows how and when your friend or loved one is going to die? I want someone in authority, who is supposed to be in charge of our security, to please answer my questions. I don't want to hear any more BS about why we shouldn't water board I want them to tell me what they're going to do that's going to work better when minutes count and protect us. Platitudes won't keep us alive.

692 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:25:27pm

re: #684 pink freud

If you have plenty of shade on that pond you can also try wasabi, which gows well in water. Most of us have never had real wasabi before. The stuff in the tube and even in really fancy sushi joints is horseradish with food coloring. Real wasabi is outrageously expensive. It is a very difficult plant to grow,, very touchy about conditions and handling. If your friend has a green thumb it's worth trying.

693 SixDegrees  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:26:02pm

re: #688 jaunte

Exactly. It's all a matter of "Well, this is what I believe." Damn convenient.

That's also why the current Administration and Congress are so willing to blather on endlessly about their beliefs while doing absolutely nothing - like going to court, if they actually believe a crime has been committed. Court, though, is the last place they want to be; any court would immediately point out, as already noted, that there is no formal legal definition of torture, and until there is no charges can be brought against anyone. End of story. End of a very convenient political game.

And providing a definition can't be used to justify retroactive prosecutions, which are forbidden by the Constitution. It would, however, put the ball squarely in Congress' lap when the question comes up about who decided to torture or not to torture when the question arises again in the future.

694 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:26:04pm

re: #667 albusteve

I use powdered peach pits...I'll investigate

I hear a puree of pickled pig pancreas produces positive pore polishing.

695 Kenneth  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:26:20pm

First things first.

Nearly all the arguments I've heard start with a conclusion, and then argue backwards from there. Most never bother to define the terms. Those are not real arguments, but mere expositions of prejudice.

Define torture. Define waterboarding as performed by the US on the 3 terrorists at Gitmo. Only then can you rationally decide if it is torture.

Waterboqarding is not torture when performed on US military personnel as part of there SERE training, or else the US military would be have been charged with torture years ago. So why is it torture when performed in the very same manner on a terrorist? Is it because he doesn't want it done? In that case, anything the US does to a captured terrorist is torture.

Mancow was willing, so does that make it not torture? Or is it torture because a radio jockey didn't last 5 seconds when he assumed he could last longer? What if he lasted 10 seconds before calling it quits? What if another man lasted 20 seconds before breaking down? What is the cut-off time? Is it torture on one man, but not on another?

Define the terms and the decide.

696 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:27:00pm

re: #670 albusteve

what is the purpose? farmacology speaking

Cornsilk is supposedly great for the urinary tract.

697 Wendya  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:28:41pm

re: #521 CharlesWaterboarding Historically Controversial:

In the post-Vietnam period, the Navy SEALs and some Army Special Forces used a form of waterboarding with trainees to prepare them to resist interrogation if captured. The waterboarding proved so successful in breaking their will, says one former Navy captain familiar with the practice, "they stopped using it because it hurt morale."


It's a shame that former Navy Captain wasn't named. From what I understand from people who both went through the course and people who taught at SERE school, one of the objectives was to show that everyone can be broken and that's okay. They teach the "students" how to hold out as long as possible but every person passing through that course has their "morale hurt" and it generally occurs before the waterboarding stage.

698 Gearhead  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:28:50pm

And, like the detainees, Mancow is still breathing.

Unlike their victims.

699 jaunte  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:28:55pm

re: #693 SixDegrees

So unfortunately our political leaders' "ducking and dodging and denying the truth" as Charles put it, and getting into big trouble because of it will probably continue.

700 EaterOfFood  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:29:42pm

I wouldn't want to be waterboarded either, but then again I'm not actively engaged in a war against the United States.

701 SixDegrees  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:30:40pm

re: #690 Charles

Good points. I agree.

But in the case of waterboarding, I think we do have a working definition that describes it as torture -- the definition we apply when our own captured troops are subjected to it.

If our own government classifies this as torture when it's done to our troops by the Vietcong and the Japanese, and we try to use it to train Navy SEALs to resist torture, there's just no doubt -- it's torture.

That's why I keep imploring people to simply acknowledge this fact, and then we can deal with the important question, which is: are there times when it's justified to use this form of torture?

I agree with Charles Krauthammer (as usual) on this: there ARE extreme situations in which it's justified to use waterboarding. But we should go into it with our eyes wide open, knowing full well what we're doing, instead of ducking and dodging and denying the truth -- because that's how you get into big trouble.

That's a pragmatic solution, and it certainly seems hypocritical to apply the term selectively depending on who's face is getting soaked. But it leaves the larger issue unanswered, and people are a clever lot, capable of dreaming up other techniques to take the place of one specific instance that has been banned. Again, if we're really serious about never using torture, it is incumbent upon us to provide a workable definition that can be applied in the case of techniques that have never been enumerated.

I'm cynical enough to believe that Congress will do no such thing, because the current ambiguity works too well for them.

702 Kenneth  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:32:19pm

re: #690 Charles

Surely, the difference between torture and enhanced interrogation is not the about who does it, but how it is done. When my son threw a bucket of water on my face at the beach, it was very unpleasant to me, but it was not torture. When a man id immersed in a tank of water until water fills his lungs, is removed only long enough to recover his breath, and then re-immersed again, hour after hour, then it is certainly torture.

But is 5 seconds of water on a face towel, while medical personnel monitor vital signs, really torture?

The difference is in how, not what, or why or who.

703 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:33:36pm

Kilgore, thanks for the wasabi tip. I hadn't a clue and I enjoy the challenge. As for green thumbs, her's are all black but mine are perennial. :-)

I don't know if you've run across gardenweb.com yet or not, but their forum list is extensive and you may find some helpful information on your current project. They've been a wealth of information for me; I have been a member there for 12 years.

704 solomonpanting  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:33:57pm

re: #658 Charles

Our own government calls this torture, when it's used against our troops. Let's just admit that's what it is, instead of denying it and pretending it's nothing more than a little bit of water.

That's fine. Then I'd call it psychological torture to distinguish it from other types.

705 Racer X  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:42:58pm

re: #690 Charles

I have to agree. Waterboarding is torture. But in certain situations it is necessary. But the next question is when would it be OK for our guys to be tortured in the same manner?

706 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:43:30pm

re: #703 pink freud

It's a great forum. I used to read the bonsai section all the time. Very helpful and very active community. I'm trying to learn hydroponics but most of the info is from stupid potheads who only want to grow weed. I've gound a lot of useful info in their hydroponics sections lately.

707 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:45:18pm

re: #706 Killgore Trout

I've gound =I've found.
Who put these keys so close together?

708 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:47:46pm

re: #707 Killgore Trout

I've gound =I've found.
Who put these keys so close together?

teh ibm is in ur keyz, maeking typoz

709 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:50:19pm

re: #693 SixDegrees

The UN took a shot at it back in '85

[Link: www.unhchr.ch...]

Article 1

1. For the purposes of this Convention, the term "torture" means any act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as obtaining from him or a third person information or a confession, punishing him for an act he or a third person has committed or is suspected of having committed, or intimidating or coercing him or a third person, or for any reason based on discrimination of any kind, when such pain or suffering is inflicted by or at the instigation of or with the consent or acquiescence of a public official or other person acting in an official capacity. It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions.
2. This article is without prejudice to any international instrument or national legislation which does or may contain provisions of wider application.

-----------

My parents and grandparents, aunts and uncles and peers were torturers then? Well I guess not since they were not public officials or acting in an official capacity ... /

710 Kulhwch  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:51:29pm

Jebus, what a wuss.  Hitchens lasted three times as long:

}:)     [Maybe that's why the lefttards consider it torture, they're all soft wusses ... ]

711 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:53:00pm

re: #708 OldLineTexan

I can haz spel check?

712 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:55:56pm

re: #711 Killgore Trout

I can haz spel check?

u kan, but spel chek iz teh LIRE! sumtimez. 4 xampul, this post iz teh perfeckt, but teh spel chek sez oh noes, wurdz iz RONG! LIRE!

713 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 6:58:08pm

re: #710 Kulhwch

Jebus, what a wuss.  Hitchens lasted three times as long:


[Video]

}:)     [Maybe that's why the lefttards consider it torture, they're all soft wusses ... ]

Sleep apnea anyone? - he describes it perfectly - My CPAP machine is my best friend! And even then there are times ...

714 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:02:03pm

re: #709 Bobibutu

These characters don't hold a candle to Bucky Fuller in expressing a thot in one paragraph.

715 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:09:20pm

"It does not include pain or suffering arising only from, inherent in or incidental to lawful sanctions."

I guess, herein lies the rub.

716 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:10:04pm

re: #706 Killgore Trout

The tropicals forum and the begonia forum are my favorites. And container gardening ...I garden in containers exclusively. (Moving can be a nightmare, I have over 100 pots, some that have been with me for 15+ years.)

Bonsai is appealing to me. I've dabbled in it but my mom is the connoisseur. My thing is the cane begonias, especially the ones that are rare or newly collected (South America, Thailand, Indonesia, etc.) They tend to have sturdy stalks like bamboo. I've one 6' tall begonia that I started from one cutting sent to me by a garden club member from Scandanavia in '97. I've single-handedly got it proliferated in this area ...heck, probably most of South Louisiana by now. It's the only begonia that develops a caudex base over the years and is just now being recognized as such and sought after by the bonsai enthusiasts.

Desert Rose also has the wonderful caudex base (I think of them as fake-bonsai) and I have an elderly collection of them also, always trimmed to maintain optimal visual appeal and form. They're to die for when they start blooming.

These begonias live for years and bloom profusely. They root easily from cuttings. If you're interested in getting some of the more unusual and rare ones, I'd be happy to send a big box of cuttings to you. I'd be curious to see how they fare in a hydroponic setting. I've always got a vase or two of cuttings sitting in water at my kitchen window; they can live in it indefinitely.

717 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:11:08pm

re: #712 OldLineTexan

OLT, I have to ask. Are your beans less gassy? ;-)

718 Kulhwch  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:15:08pm

Personally, I don't care what it's called, I care that it was effective in the three cases they used it.  I live in California, not as close to where the next attack was going to happen as Charles is, but even so.  Against cold-blooded barbarians like those who sawed Daniel Pearl's head off, etc., in the face of those who plan mass murders, and who may have other murders planned in the future, I'd approve hot coals and bone breaking.  When Islamofascists act like animals, then they don't deserve compassion in my estimation.

}:)     [If they want civilized treatment, they need act fucking civilized.  Otherwise, they cause their own fates and deserve what they get.  Damn, who wound ME up?]

719 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:21:41pm

re: #717 pink freud

OLT, I have to ask. Are your beans less gassy? ;-)

Ha! The last ones I did were not at all gassy, but I did not roll them!

You know the red beans and rice recipe I posted a while back? It uses the small red beans - very high in fiber. They are cooked first, plain, water only. Then added to the other ingredients. Not gassy!

720 Cato the Elder  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:24:42pm

Charles is right. So is Hitchens. So is Mancow.

Of course it's torture.

Calling things by pretty euphemisms is a Nazi/Stalinist/Orwellian specialty. It doesn't change what those things are.

This is said without prejudice and with full knowledge that ugly things are sometimes necessary.

Just don't fire me and tell me I'm being "let go". Or torture me and tell me I'm being subjected to "SERE-approved enhanced interrogation techniques".

Things are what they are.

721 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:25:22pm

re: #719 OldLineTexan

Ha! The last ones I did were not at all gassy, but I did not roll them!

You know the red beans and rice recipe I posted a while back? It uses the small red beans - very high in fiber. They are cooked first, plain, water only. Then added to the other ingredients. Not gassy!

Hmmm ....not gassy with no rolling? Musta been the power of my good wishes! :-)
Are you able to get tasso there? Or andouille sausage? Either of those two add a magnificent flavor.

722 [deleted]  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:28:40pm
723 OldLineTexan  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:30:29pm

re: #721 pink freud

Hmmm ....not gassy with no rolling? Musta been the power of my good wishes! :-)
Are you able to get tasso there? Or andouille sausage? Either of those two add a magnificent flavor.

There's a couple of "specialty" Cajun butchers/shops nearby ... andouille is easy enoughy ... tasso, not so much.

724 Killgore Trout  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:32:40pm

re: #716 pink freud

They also do well grown in the ground. Like nearly all begonias, canes require a well drained potting mix and resent soggy feet.

Hmmm... I'm a newbie at hydroponics but I am starting to learn. Woody plants such as my kumquats and plants the don't like soggy feet such as strawberries don't do well with "deep water culture" systems. I've switched to an overhead drip system that seems to work pretty well and will probably do well for your begonia propagation. Give me a few months to work out the bugs and I might have a cheap and efficient system for you to try out.

725 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:43:25pm

re: #724 Killgore Trout

Sounds wonderful. I've been experimenting with soils a long time and have settled on a mixture of perlite, pine bark chips, continuous-release pellets, a bit of miracle-grow soil, and turface. Turface is really cool for container-growing, it's a porous ceramic soil conditioner that meets my aeration requirements and holds up well. It's excellent for bonsai, also.

726 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:44:30pm

Forgot, Kilgore:

This is the most comprehensive and informative soil posting I've seen.

727 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:46:36pm

re: #716 pink freud

Once upon a time, in Indonesia, out in the islands of the Flores sea - while reaching our destination by small boat (to do some SATNAV stuff for oil exploration), in passing, we spied thru binoculars, a whole island! covered with orchids and other exotic flowers and plants. Noting it, we vowed to return and make our fortune (we had access to substantial cumshawed resources with the Indonesian military and Pertamina (Indonesian Oil Co.) - of course we would cut them in) ... so we went a few days later in our boat to begin reaping the treasure ... long story short ... about 1/4 mile off we were attacked by masses of flesh eating and blood sucking insects .. we turned back never to return having not the protection needed - (Bug replant was useless).

Mind blowing stuff in the Islands of the Flores - from WWII installations and aircraft wrecks to the flora and fauna.

The nights - no light pollution for 1500 miles - meteorites every 10 secs or so and the Milky Way lit up the sky and ground on moonless nights.

Ahhh - memories I wish could be shared beyond words.

728 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:52:28pm

re: #727 Bobibutu

Wow. Thank you for taking the time to look for words for that. I can imagine it. Beautiful. Nice memories for you.

729 meh130  Fri, May 22, 2009 7:53:43pm

re: #49 Charles

The only case in which this could possibly be justified is in a "ticking bomb" scenario. And from what I know about its use at Gitmo, that's how it was used.

Charles.

You have bought into the parallel liberal narrative. No one was waterboarded at Gitmo. Abu Zubaydah was waterboarded in April 2002. In September 2006, President Bush announced Zubaydah would be transferred to Gitmo. KSM was waterboarded in March 2003, shortly after his capture. He did not make it to Gitmo until September 2006. Abd al-Rahim al-Nashiri was waterboarded by the CIA prior to 2005, when the tapes of his CIA interrogations were destroyed. He was transferred to Gitmo in 2008.

Waterboarding was only authorized to be used by the CIA, not the military, which was limited to the Army Field Manual on interrogation. Gitmo was and is a purely military operation. CIA interrogations were done at the "Secret CIA Prisons" overseas, not at Gitmo.

As for media types being waterboarded, back from November 2006, Steve Harrigan gets waterboarded. Definitely worth listening to, especially the last 30 seconds.

http://hotair.com/archives/2006/11/04/video-steve-harrigan-gets-waterboarded-on-fox/

730 Macker  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:05:21pm

re: #18 Fluffster

I think I prefer waterboarding to beheadings.

I would also think it's worth it to save the lives of Non-Americans...

And some people forget that when we dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we saved MILLIONS of JAPANESE lives.

731 wiffersnapper  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:12:48pm

interesting, was never quite sure how it worked.

732 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:14:25pm

re: #124 buzzsawmonkey

If someone gave me the choice between subjecting Khalid Sheikh Mohammed to this technique or seeing again what I saw from my apartment windows on the morning of September 11, I would not hesitate to choose the former.

Amen to that.

I had a long day on Sept 11, 2001 too. One of the guys who worked for me ended up at Merrill in the WTC. A young and very fit dude, he had to eat breakfast everyday. His trip to the WTC cafeteria saved his life.

He appeared at 3:00 or so on 9/11/01 in my office in midtown looking for his girlfriend (who also worked for me). He was covered and caked in soot and ash. He had walked for hours from the battery to midtown.

His cell wasn't working (none were). He asked me to call his mother in Long Island and I did. When I handed him the phone, he was crying.
I had to tell his mom that he was alive and safe: she started crying too.

Phew. Waterboarding KSM?

Take a number.

.

733 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:14:34pm

re: #729 meh130

I haven't "bought into" anything. The physical location of the waterboarding has no effect on the point I was making -- the only justification for waterboarding is in a "ticking bomb" situation.

734 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:16:20pm

re: #728 pink freud

Wow. Thank you for taking the time to look for words for that. I can imagine it. Beautiful. Nice memories for you.

I posted part of this story long before - while on the atoll/island - I noticed some sails on the horizon coming towards us. 3 dugouts with sails ... they landed and went to work catching fish ignoring me and my camp helpers. A whole family from newborn to grandpa. I realized later that this was their usual routine - catch fish - smoke them and return to civilization to trade.

Long story short - my helper related to me that grandpa wanted to know if I had any thing that would help him sleep.

I carried a full medical kit including drugs - he had to have contact with oil exploration teams in the past to know to ask the question..

I gave him an 800 mg of whatever muscle relaxant I had - I don't remember the specific drug.

Next morning - everyone is busy except grandpa - oh shit! I killed him - I thot.

G'pa arouses mid day when his clan is leaving and asks thru my guy - "please, thank you for last night - one more - not for tonight - but if I ever want to get a good nights sleep again" - I gave him 2.

735 Teh Flowah  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:16:34pm

re: #730 Macker

And some people forget that when we dropped the atomic bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, we saved MILLIONS of JAPANESE lives.

Only if you assume that there would have been an invasion of mainland Japan. Scientists, politicians, experts, and military personnel as high as Eisenhower and MacArthur, would disagree with that assumption.

736 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:20:41pm

re: #734 Bobibutu

I wish I had some of that sh*t now ....

737 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:34:14pm

re: #735 Teh Flowah

Only if you assume that there would have been an invasion of mainland Japan. Scientists, politicians, experts, and military personnel as high as Eisenhower and MacArthur, would disagree with that assumption.

Link please!

And invasion was on the books.

738 hopperandadropper  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:35:49pm

re: #493 3 wood

Man, I hope like hell some bureaucrat tries to tell me I can't pull my kid out of a class if I decide that's what needs to be done. That's a big can of whoop-ass just waiting to be opened.

739 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:36:45pm

re: #737 Bobibutu

Link please!

And invasion was on the books.

Operation Downfall

Operation Olympic

Operation Coronet

740 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:40:25pm

re: #735 Teh Flowah

Only if you assume that there would have been an invasion of mainland Japan. Scientists, politicians, experts, and military personnel as high as Eisenhower and MacArthur, would disagree with that assumption.

Bull Shit - see my last post.

741 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:43:51pm

re: #734 Bobibutu

How sweet of you, Bobibutu. We get so caught up in our own worlds, our own cultures .....that story took me out of mine for a while, imagining.

Grandpa to newborn. A nice way to live.

742 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:48:22pm

re: #741 pink freud

How sweet of you, Bobibutu. We get so caught up in our own worlds, our own cultures .....that story took me out of mine for a while, imagining.

Grandpa to newborn. A nice way to live.

It was a mind blowing trip - me! Big techno wonk - they - Humans - I got a major reality check. Still is with me.

743 Dad O' Blondes  Fri, May 22, 2009 8:48:32pm

re: #735 Teh Flowah

Only if you assume that there would have been an invasion of mainland Japan. Scientists, politicians, experts, and military personnel as high as Eisenhower and MacArthur, would disagree with that assumption.

You are profoundly incorrect.

As noted by LGF poster "Bobitutu" above, kindly review US military planning details attached to "Operation Downfall".

Here's a primer:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

"...Nearly 500,000 Purple Heart medals were manufactured in anticipation of the casualties resulting from the invasion of Japan. To the present date, all the American military casualties of the sixty years following the end of World War II — including the Korean and Vietnam Wars — have not exceeded that number. In 2003, there were still 120,000 of these Purple Heart medals in stock.[45] There are so many in surplus that combat units in Iraq and Afghanistan are able to keep Purple Hearts on-hand for immediate award to wounded soldiers on the field.[45]..."

744 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:01:15pm

re: #734 Bobibutu

I did have to account for that stuff at mission end - what would you have said?

745 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:04:40pm

re: #744 Bobibutu

I did have to account for that stuff at mission end - what would you have said?

Without knowing more of your circumstances or possible ramifications, I would have told the truth. Humanity should be sewn.

746 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #741 pink freud

How sweet of you, Bobibutu. We get so caught up in our own worlds, our own cultures .....that story took me out of mine for a while, imagining.

Grandpa to newborn. A nice way to live.

The compassion and accountability these folks had with each other - heloooooo.

Much more to the story. Another time.

747 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:13:04pm

re: #745 pink freud

Without knowing more of your circumstances or possible ramifications, I would have told the truth. Humanity should be sewn.

And that's what I did when I got back to Singapore 6 months later.

No big deal - I deployed 2 weeks later to position an oil rig.

748 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:13:15pm

re: #746 Bobibutu

The compassion and accountability these folks had with each other - heloooooo.

Much more to the story. Another time.

I would enjoy hearing more.

749 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:15:09pm

re: #747 Bobibutu

And that's what I did when I got back to Singapore 6 months later.

No big deal - I deployed 2 weeks later to position an oil rig.

Diver? I am well familiar with the oil industry and have heard stories like yours of faraway cultures my entire life, from the oil workers that live here and work throughout the world.

750 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:28:00pm

re: #749 pink freud

Diver? I am well familiar with the oil industry and have heard stories like yours of faraway cultures my entire life, from the oil workers that live here and work throughout the world.

I had friends that were divers - I was a wannabe - underwater swimmer (USN) early 60's - I did the exploration gig - way before the big boys came in and drilled.

Are you Texas ore Louisiana?

If I had the bucks I would take everyone on a tour - you are privileged with the stories - most haven't a clue.

You are lucky for sure.

751 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:35:47pm

re: #750 Bobibutu

Bobibutu, luckier than you can imagine. I am in Lafayette and the Cajun culture here is so similar to that of which you wrote. It's dwindling from what it was in my childhood, but there are many little communities 'round here that still do the newborn-to-grandpa familial encompassing. It is such an honor to be welcomed into the home and communities such as these.

It is still one of my most cherished sources of simple, simple pleasure to go sit in a cafe in Breaux Bridge or Saint Martinville near the Evangeline Oak where the old folks congregate and socialize. Like the last 50 years never happened and I was a child again sitting there with my dad having ice cream while he had coffee with the elders. And mind you ...women and children always walked on the inner part of the sidewalk with the older male near the street-side ...and still do, here.

752 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:48:50pm

re: #679 screaming_eagle

No mistake was made. Non-uniformed combants hiding behind civilians is required by the Geneva Conventions to be executed on the spot. They are a threat to civilized humanity as spelled out in the conventions. I am no expert on which article to find it under but it was one that jumped out at me a few years ago when I was re-reading them.

I would encourage you to reread them. No such "requirement" is in place. I have not run across such in any of my readings.

They are unlawful combatants. As unlawful combatants, they are subject to capture,detention and punishment by military tribunals for acts of war which render their combatant actions unlawful. This is permissive, not compulsory on the capturing state. The capturing state may if the choose constitute a military tribunal in the field and shoot them within minutes of their capture. Or they may not.

If you can find any such requirement in the Geneva Conventions, I would very much like to read it.

If you find it, please track me down here at LGF and let me know.

753 Syrah  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:58:58pm

re: #752 Syrah


The tribunal is compulsory. The punishment is up to the tribunals discretion. Shooting the un-lawful combatant after the tribunal's judgment and sentence is permissible, but it is not compulsory sentence.

754 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 9:59:10pm

re: #751 pink freud

Yes - those days are, alas, maybe gone. Unlocked doors and ice cream parlors - I want to go back to the beach where I met the nomads and/or run wild with the guys in Guinea - sorry but I give up - Damn - If I could catch up to "grandad" and his tribe - do you think I would give it a shot?

I would go in a heart beat.

755 pink freud  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:12:05pm

There are many days that I would go too.

As it is, I believe I am one of the lucky ones to be deeply rooted in a proud culture that holds tightly to its roots and traditions and a drive to the solitude of the swamp is but ten minutes away.

756 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:19:42pm

re: #748 pink freud

I would enjoy hearing more.

OK - When way out there in Guinea - on a river community - Pertima would set me up with housing. I arrived and the locals treated me like a God (when you arrive by chopper and a boat was waiting for you it was impressive to them). I was embarrassed however - I invited the local elders to dinner in the hut i was allocated to.

They would not eat! or take anything I offered to them - finally - when I started to eat the fruit - desert - they asked if I would save the the seeds for them.

Think about that.

Profoundly intelligent.

My mind is still blown.

757 Bob Dillon  Fri, May 22, 2009 10:29:16pm

re: #751 pink freud

Woah - my head spins with your post. too much for now.

I bid you a rest well.

758 sngnsgt  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:28:02am

re: #183 Killgore Trout

Spot on. Now, listening to all the echo chamber reverb whenever "The 0ne" he speaks, now that's torture.

759 capitalist piglet  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:06:34am

re: #231 Conservative Moonbat

I believe we prosecuted the Japanese who water boarded American prisoners at the end of WWII. I'm not going to get into the "is it torture or not" debate, but I would at least like to ask that we be consistent. If we can do it captives we should have no objection when it's done when our own G.I.s are taken as POWs.

I could be wrong about this, but I have studied the Japanese in WWII fairly extensively, and I don't believe the Japanese did very many (if ANY) things in a controlled environment, the way that this is done.

So I don't find it really comparable.

When they're pouring gasoline on prisoners trapped in a hole and lighting them on fire, or bayoneting ninety-pound men in the abdomen and pushing them into a slit trench filled with human excrement, I have my doubts that there were doctors present when they were using water techniques. It was way more crude, and way more dangerous. In fact, I think they did it to Claire Phillips (the spy known as High Pockets), if I remember correctly.

760 amir  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:35:54am

According to the UN Convention Against Torture (to which the US is a signatory) torture is "act by which severe pain or suffering, whether physical or mental, is intentionally inflicted on a person for such purposes as ... " So the question is, is this "severe". It doesn't look severe to me and even rollercoasters can induce heart attacks in susceptible people. From the wikipedia entry on waterboarding "the journalist Christopher Hitchens voluntarily experienced waterboarding. He managed to resist for twelve seconds the first time, and, embarrassed at his poor performance, he asked to try again. " How bad could it be if he asked for seconds.
On the other hand if it wasn't severe it wouldn't be effective.
Interrogators need tools to extract information from the enemy. Not for the purposes extracting confessions to be used in a court of law, or for satisfying some torturers sadistic desires, but to prevent further acts of terror. Clear guidelines need to be established regarding when and how, by whom and under what authority these techniques are to be used.

761 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 5:30:02am

First comment here, long time reader only recently registered.

I would like to thank Charles for opening this topic and for his stance. Although I disagree with many people here, on this as well as many other issues, I appreciate LGF and the lizard army. I come here because I learn from reading you, even when--perhaps especially when!- I violently disagree.

That being said-- I wish more people would be willing to admit that waterboarding is torture, plain and simple. As Charles pointed out, if we were willing to call it that when it was done to our own people, and even execute people for doing it to us, then it's wrong to suddenly have semantic amnesia and pretend otherwise.

There is a real debate to have here-- namely, what are we as a nation willing to do to protect ourselves? What techniques, if any, are or should be forbidden in the service of our own defense and why?

That's the real debate, and playing games with the meaning of 'waterboarding' obfuscates that. Frankly, it just alienates people (liberals) who might otherwise be willing to agree with you. It cuts off the debate before it can even get started.

Now, I'm a total liberal by LGF standards. But I also lost someone on 9/11. So I struggle personally with the issue of whether or not we should waterboard. I think it's a very hard moral question and it goes to the roots of who we are as a people and as a nation. But we should just admit that waterboarding is torture and then continue the discussion. We might find that lots of people (Democrats and liberals) will wind up agreeing that such techniques are warranted under certain circumstances.

Just my opinion. Thanks LGF and lizard community for reading.

762 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:03:00am

One big problem with torture, in addition to the moral aspects, is that it is a very good way of extracting false and worthless information. If your drowning reflex is triggered as a result of waterboarding, you might admit to all kinds of stuff.

What would Cassidy have admitted to after more than 8 seconds?

763 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:12:10am

re: #762 oslogin

One big problem with torture, in addition to the moral aspects, is that it is a very good way of extracting false and worthless information. If your drowning reflex is triggered as a result of waterboarding, you might admit to all kinds of stuff.

What would Cassidy have admitted to after more than 8 seconds?

Absolutely. Apart from the moral/ethical aspects, there is the huge practical one: people will say anything at all to make the pain stop.

Everything I've read indicates that interrogators know this: you might get some useful information but you'll also get admissions of anything at all, and also lies, just people saying whatever they think the interrogator wants to hear in a desperate attempt to make it stop.

I remain conflicted about whether we should use waterboarding at all, from the moral standpoint--but i also have doubts about its practical utility, for the reasons you've just expressed very well.

764 zelnaga  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:32:16am

re: #361 zombie

If I had to choose between being electrocuted and being waterboarded:
I'd choose waterboarding.


Tazers electrocute but don't leave permanent damage (which is the whole reason they're being used) - seems like that puts them and waterboarding in the same class of techniques.

Incidentally, it was alleged during the Bush years that telling the world about waterboarding would let terrorists prepare themselves against it. Can you prepare yourself against it? It's been suggested that it's not physically possible to kill yourself by holding your breath, for example, because, at some point, your hypothalamus will force you to breath. Does waterboarding create so primal an response that no amount of preparation will prepare you against it?

765 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:35:25am

I meant "Mancow", not Cassidy, of course.

Point is: in addition to being morally questionable (though I can certainly understand the motivation for using torture in "ticking bomb"-cases, Jack Bauer-style), torture is highly ineffective.

Someone argued above that if people want to be treated civilised, they should act civilised, the obvious point being that terrorists are not. It's hard to disagree, but one should at least consider that the very same argument may be made by other people. In essence: Accepting torture as a method, means accepting it also when others use it.

766 [deleted]  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:44:44am
767 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:48:49am

re: #765 oslogin


Someone argued above that if people want to be treated civilised, they should act civilised, the obvious point being that terrorists are not. It's hard to disagree, but one should at least consider that the very same argument may be made by other people.

Exactly. This is why i feel uncomfortable when people make arguments like "They cut off heads, so anything we do that isn't as bad is ok".

the issue can't be : "they're so horrible, so anything we do--so long as it's less bad than what they do-- is ok". --That's just wrong. We're better than them, better than that.

And as you say, there is this worry that the argument you mention can very easily be flipped around and applied to US, by others, once we cross the line. I worry about that a lot.

768 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:53:35am

re: #764 zelnaga

Does waterboarding create so primal an response that no amount of preparation will prepare you against it?

Yes. That is what waterboarding does: it triggers a primitive, atavistic response--the people being waterboarded are experiencing the sensation of drowning. This is why people like Hitchens and Mancow, even though they were pro-the use of waterboarding and genuinely motivated to believe it isn't torture, concluded it WAS torture after experiencing it for only seconds.

Hitchens has written that he still had nightmares about it.

It's torture, for sure. The real question is, do we as a nation think we should do this? When and under what circumstances?

769 Curt  Sat, May 23, 2009 6:54:41am

re: #67 simonml

I agree with your comment. Very cogent. But I have a question: Can you "train against" waterboarding?

Way late to this party with a response, but my opinion, based on sitting in a number of meetings with 7 Industrial Psychology PhDs over several months, we have set up training specifically to allow service members to acclimate to the high stress environments they might encounter. In this case, it was building very intricately designed training scenarios to replicate the stress the crew of the USS STARK encountered when the Iraqis' fired two Exocets into them in the Persian Gulf in 1987.

The intent was to provide the stimulus to get the crew into the mindset of a high amount of stress, so the sailors could see and understand how they reacted, so, when that point arrived in a real world environment, they'd be familiar and understand better how to proceed. After all the planning, we actually tested this on a real crew on a cruiser, although pierside and via their internal training devices to make the presentation of targets. My team and I ran the evaluation "by hand" so to speak (we had all been evaluating training for many years by then, and compared our results to what the Docs saw.

My own personal experience with real world stress is that of skydiving. In 28 years, with 1200+ jumps behind me, and 5 reserve rides, I'll say #1 way done in "full auto" due to my good training on the ground. After I was under my reserve, still with lots of air below me, I thought "How did I do that?" Each subsequent emergency responses were deliberate, conscious recognitions of the problem and rapid execution of the procedures to cut away and deploy a reserve, in the proper sequence. Fear? No. Sobering understanding of getting on with doing the right thing, right away, and also having knowledge of many reports over those years of people trying to "fix" things to the ground, or too close to the ground running through my head. I trusted my riggers just fine, and they never failed me, and I never failed myself in recognizing the danger.

Yes, you can be acclimated to such things, at least to the point that you know what you most likely will do and how soon you will do it, if you have "been there" and got the t-shirt and coffee mug to prove it.

770 Kenneth  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:05:50am

A prediction:

At some time in his first term, President Obama will find it necessary to use waterboarding or some other intense form of interrogation technique. He will spin it as safe waterboarding, or some other clever locution. But he will do it.

771 E.T.  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:30:45am

If waterboarding is torture why is it that KSM was able to withstand 80 sessions before breaking.... was it that he is a strong willed, brave jihadi that finally broke under torture by the evil Americans ....

no, waterboarding is not torture, KSM is just a p*ussy .. they just made life so uncomfortable that be broke.

Some may not want this technique used to gain information that may save their loved ones but I would want the government to do ALL that is necessary to save the ones I love. Their lives are mush more valuable to me than the comfort of a coward like KSM.

772 E.T.  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:43:16am

I just watched the video and am more convinced than ever, Waterboarding is not torture ....the guy performing the waterboarding was yuking it up, I doubt he would be if he thought it was real torture -- was mancow uncomfortable , yes absolutely but he was just fine after. He was able to talk and act just fine.... I would like to compare this with a video of the after effects of a real torture session .... waterboarding = torture ?....what a crock!

773 Danny  Sat, May 23, 2009 7:43:31am

I've got to respectfully but strongly disagree with Charles on this one. Waterboarding is not torture. No doubt it's an extremely harsh and effective coercion technique that can undoubtedly inflict serious mental trauma on the subject. Even so, the trauma is mental, temporary, and does not inflict physiological injury. As far as using a risk of death, heart failure, etc. as a torture litmus test, every medical and dental patient is subjected to lethal risks when local anesthesia is administered. It wouldn't surprise me if the risks of waterboarding were even lower than those.

I also think context matters when defining torture. It would be a cruel and unusual act to waterboard an innocent person for pleasure. That's torture. On the other hand, if the subject is part of a plot to do harm to innocent people, it would not be, in my opinion, cruel or unusual to use waterboarding to coerce the subject to stop the plot. It would even be immoral to do otherwise.

774 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:06:07am

re: #771 E.T.

I would not rule out that Khalid Shaikh Mohammed would be able to withstand a considerable amount of torture. That does not reduce waterboarding to anything else than torture.

During WWII, the Gestapo questioned Norwegian resistance fighters. The Gestapo were hardly known for not practising torture. One of their methods was waterboarding. Many broke, revealing information useful to the Gestapo. Some managed to commit suicide. Others did not break, or only revealed information that they had all reason to believe the Gestapo already had knowledge off. Of course, the resistance movement was also partly built in a cell structure, preventing damage.

Another example: Rosa Robota and three other women involved with the socalled Sonderkommando revolt were tortured extensively by the Gestapo. According to most sources they revealed nothing. Strong convictions can have that effect. And while the anti-Nazi resistance were the good guys, and the jihadis are the bad guys; that effect is equally applicable.

KSMs confession - or the parts of it that we have been informed about, much may with good reason be kept from us - mostly details his involvement in things we already knew he was involved in or responsible for.

The more interesting question is whether information extracted through the use of torture is reliable. If I was submitted to waterboarding, I would probably admit to the murder of JFK, if that's what I thought "they" wanted to hear. Just to make it stop. And I promise: I did not kill JFK.

To sum up: I agree with Charles that waterboarding is torture. I think it is not defendable except in very extreme cases. And I think that even when it could be defined as defendable, the resulting information will often prove to be worthless. Jack Bauer might get the information "24" needs to continue on to the next episode. In the battle against terrorisme, I doubt that it is a particularily successful method. What effect has the few known cases of US waterboarding these last few years had? Well, it has made for effective propaganda against the US. And it has given some other regimes an excellent opportunity to defend their use of torture.

775 meh130  Sat, May 23, 2009 8:58:05am

re: #733 Charles

I haven't "bought into" anything.

I'll chalk it up to an honest mistake, but I would still suggest it is the type of honest mistake which occurs as the result of subconsciously absorbing left's nonstop parallel narrative alternative canon of "waterboarding=Guantanamo=Abu Ghraib". I have been making a point to post the facts which break the equal sign between waterboarding and Guantanamo on every web comment board where someone states the alternative canon as fact.

Guantanamo has received an unjust and demonstrably false reputation. Lies about Koran flushing, irrelevant links between Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib (there was never the sort of abuse at Guantanamo that occurred at Abu Ghraib) have all contributed to the "Guantanamo=gulag" canon. The fact that only the CIA and the Executive Branch knew about the CIA's waterboarding when Abu Ghraib occurred is never stated by the media, because it runs counter to canon. Most fail to even explain that Abu Ghraib was mainly a prison for common criminals, not terrorist suspects. That breaks the canonical rule "Guantanamo=Abu Ghraib", so it is considered heresy by the left.

You are right, the location of waterboarding has nothing to with whether or not it is torture, or whether torture is ever moral. Personally, I say call it torture and let's debate whether torture is ever moral. But for the left to create an alternative cannon which implicates with a broad brush anyone in the Bush administration, the CIA, and the military as criminally complicit is a demonization strategy right out book of tyrants.

776 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:10:20am

re: #775 meh130

Personally, I say call it torture and let's debate whether torture is ever moral.

Agreed. Thank you.

We might wind up disagreeing at the end of the road, but at least we agree about the map. Cheers.

777 BARACK THE VOTE  Sat, May 23, 2009 9:26:41am

re: #773 Danny


I also think context matters when defining torture. It would be a cruel and unusual act to waterboard an innocent person for pleasure. That's torture. On the other hand, if the subject is part of a plot to do harm to innocent people, it would not be, in my opinion, cruel or unusual to use waterboarding to coerce the subject to stop the plot. It would even be immoral to do otherwise.

All apologies and respect, Danny, but isn't this part of the issue? We DON'T KNOW in advance if a person is innocent or not! That's for a jury to decide, surely? Presumption of innocence and all that? So how can it be ok to pre-emptively waterboard people who might well be innocent, and to whom the american legal system would say we should accord the presumption of innocence?

Look, it's torture or it's not; it can't become not-torture when we do it, as opposed to when 'bad guys' do it.

And I say again that I'm conflicted about when and how we might use waterboarding...
but let's be clear that it's TORTURE, and then talk about the other issues.

I hate child molesters, and in my mind they're the best argument ever in favor of the death penalty--that doesn't mean I want our cops to torture them to get a confession, even if they 'know' some particular pedophile is guilty of some crime. Why?-- because we're better than they are.

Same thing with terrorists, in my opinion. I wouldn't endorse the idea of cops beating to death some pedophile (even though the idea makes me happy)--why? because we have a system of laws, and following the laws is part of what proves they are animals and we are humans.

We shouldn't let others drag us down to their level.

778 solomonpanting  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:06:18am

Waterboarding is torture, (perhaps psychological in nature.)
Of course, someone having terminal cancer and another individual having the common cold are both considered to be sick.

779 Curt  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:11:31am

re: #777 iceweasel

We DON'T KNOW in advance if a person is innocent or not! That's for a jury to decide, surely? Presumption of innocence and all that? So how can it be ok to pre-emptively waterboard people who might well be innocent, and to whom the american legal system would say we should accord the presumption of innocence?

If your entire view of the war the terrorists announced on us, long before even 9/11/2001 is that we are to handle this via a law enforcement model, you are on firm ground. In that model, it is, by and large, not related to national defense at the highest level. Granted, treason, etc are under the law, and, in those cases, it's about aiding and abetting the enemy to damage the United States and therefore it's citizens.

I can see how another man, mostly a lawyer by profession, in the Oval Office, handled terrorist action against us under this view point. The following administration took the terrorists at their word: They we not just out to be serial killers/mass murders for the sake of killing some people, but a declared condition to specifically attack the US, and the deaths they caused were the means by which they did it, not the end of their game. They did inflict economic and personal and physical destruction, and, as we know because of this waterboarding, had plans to carry out more of the same. Can you get all the residents of LA to sign up for giving each legal or illegal combatant, captured on a far flung battlefield, the protection of every American law?

There are rules of international warfare, worked out over hundreds, if not thousands of years of armed dissension between recognized enties, now called sovereign nations.

Are you aware the illegal combatants can be summarily executed? If they are fighting, but not wearing the uniform of a nation, they are fair game to "disappear" into an unmarked grave.

Think about this: By being the humane, advanced culture, we didn't apply this decreed measure against these men/women, and here we are, debating the use of EIT on three people, who...turn out to be key players at the top of the chain of command. How fortunate we are to have only cased so little fear.

Now, factor in that we do not train service members to be capable of securing a crime scene and collecting evidence on a battlefield. No CSI vans with a raft of people and expensive equipment follow the troops around. Besides, other enemy keep shooting, and disregard the need to make sure the evidence is clear and collected with a fine tuned chain of custody.

Add to it, having to divulge national secrets to the enemy. recipie for having a jury turn them loose, after the judges, under the law, toss the confessions without Miranda, the collection of body fluids/DNA without the lawyers advising, etc, etc, etc. The most likely outcome is they will be returned to the battlefield, more knowledgeable of how we captured them in the first place.

In case you didn't notice, the 9/11 hijackers studied out systems of air transport well, so as to go through the path of least resistance. They do this and ignore the laws we put on ourselves.


Same thing with terrorists, in my opinion. I wouldn't endorse the idea of cops beating to death some pedophile (even though the idea makes me happy)--why? because we have a system of laws, and following the laws is part of what proves they are animals and we are humans.


If it makes you happy, then I'm sure, as I've run into across the net, there are some very willing to pay for the single bullet in this case, but...halal meals for the jihadis and that's not good enough. Finding out which Americans they plan to kill next, and let them live...not good enough.


We shouldn't let others drag us down to their level.



Yep....nor should we allow US citizens to be slaughtered by terrorists.

BTW....Thanks for engaging thoughtfully.

780 insomniac  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:39:20am

I watched the waterboarding video; I've also watched a beheading video.

There are no comparisons

781 Frater Eosphoros  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:43:53am

So then beheading is ok then?
/s

782 the1sgjohns  Sat, May 23, 2009 10:58:16am

Nice to see someone who actually realizes that beheading is more horrific than waterboarding. And can see that if given a choice between the two waterboarding 'ain't as bad'.

We have never, never done things so horrific as the muslims, asians and africans. Yet our left wing seems to think that anything other than even toned questions (as long as we don't ask about personal matters) is TORTURE. Mr Pearl is waiting at heavens gate.

783 AreaMan  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:01:20am

So how close is this method to the stuff the CIA was doing to those "High Value Detainees" overseas? There are lots of different ways to "Waterboard". The CIA method does not put water inside the nose or mouth. The method shown here does.

It would be better if we had an agreed-on definition of "Torture" before this issue came up. As it is, we are all winging it.

There are two essential issues nearly everyone misses:
1. What treaties applied to the people we interrogated? Remember, the "Geneva Conventions" are treaties between sovereign nations.

2. How do these enemies of ours treat our prisoners, especially any "High Value" prisoners they may hold? Do they even have any? Do they keep their treaty obligations?

Any discussion that leaves out these two issues is not complete, and is probably just posturing.

If two kids after school get into a fight, and one kid makes the other say "Uncle", is that torture? Isn't that what the video showed?

784 E.T.  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:04:42am

re: #774 oslogin

"The more interesting question is whether information extracted through the use of torture is reliable. If I was submitted to waterboarding, I would probably admit to the murder of JFK, if that's what I thought "they" wanted to hear. Just to make it stop. And I promise: I did not kill JFK."

It really depends on the kind of information that you are looking for ... obviously if you posed the JFK question they would confess to it as would anyone. But what if you pose another kind of question that is instantly verifiable like... asking for a password to encryped information found on a computer... asking for the location of a bomb factory. You just make the point that enhanced interrogation works and they would provide the information requested.

785 AreaMan  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:07:06am

If you check the dictionary, you'll find that "Drowning" means killing. If you didn't die, you weren't drowned. If we get in the habit of munging the meanings of all our words we end up in thought-soup.

786 Curt  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #783 AreaMan


There are two essential issues nearly everyone misses:
1. What treaties applied to the people we interrogated? Remember, the "Geneva Conventions" are treaties between sovereign nations.

And what sovereign nation do the illegal combatants come from?

Got that answer as to the uniform they wore, the head of state who sent them, on the orders from the national level to kill our citizens? Out the box, dude. They were "illegal combatants." No uniform, no national affiliation. Look it up. Execution authorized.


2. How do these enemies of ours treat our prisoners, especially any "High Value" prisoners they may hold? Do they even have any? Do they keep their treaty obligations?

Hey, read this: They dismembered our soldiers, oh, BTW, Privates...you know like the bottom end of the pay scale, and bobby trapped the body parts. What "international treaty" allows such hoffiric treatment of the dead? I'll help you out: NONE! They don't adhere to any treaty, beyond what they tell us it says in the Koran and we didn't get an offer to sign up for that via the Sentae and the President of the United States signing.

If they treat our PFCs this way, how might they treat Hillary Clinton, or Joe Biden, Or ADM Mullen, if they grabbed them? You can bet it wouldn't be pouring water up their noses.


Any discussion that leaves out these two issues is not complete, and is probably just posturing.

I suggest you study up on the laws governing international conflict before you get too involved in determining you can make the decisions a President has to make.

787 rjschwarz  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:57:32am

Oddly enough I still haven't seen any of the "waterboarding is torture" crowd insist that we stop the practice as part of our training US Special Forces operators.

It undercuts their arguments and they know it.

788 Curt  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #787 rjschwarz

Oddly enough I still haven't seen any of the "waterboarding is torture" crowd insist that we stop the practice as part of our training US Special Forces operators.

It undercuts their arguments and they know it.

They want to be able to keep their 1st Amendment rights....and someone has to take the training to be able to do that for them.

My name for them: "UBees" (Ungrateful Ba$tards)

789 Charles Johnson  Sat, May 23, 2009 12:44:38pm

re: #787 rjschwarz

Oddly enough I still haven't seen any of the "waterboarding is torture" crowd insist that we stop the practice as part of our training US Special Forces operators.

It undercuts their arguments and they know it.

Members of the Special Forces who undergo SERE training are waterboarded in order to resist torture.

How does this "undercut" the argument that waterboarding is torture? In fact, it does the exact opposite -- it confirms it.

It's used in SERE training because it's a form of torture that usually doesn't result in permanent physical damage.

790 ihateronpaul  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:18:06pm

I would say my final thoughts on this topic after a few years of internal debate is that if foreign forces waterboarded our troops, I doubt the president would decry the "forced interrogation techniques" done to our soliders, I have a feeling he would talk straight and call it torture.

Is this a controversial notion?

791 Lokotes  Sat, May 23, 2009 1:59:56pm

Mancow wouldn't had suffered very much, really. He would had told his captors everything he knew and would been sent back to his cell. They all have the opportunity to talk, and then return to their cells for a nice Koran reading.

792 Øyvind Strømmen  Sat, May 23, 2009 2:36:59pm

re: #784 E.T.

But what if you pose another kind of question that is instantly verifiable like... asking for a password to encryped information found on a computer... asking for the location of a bomb factory. You just make the point that enhanced interrogation works and they would provide the information requested.

Absolutely. That's the kind of stuff that happens in 24. Good TV-show. But hardly the best foundation for a strategy. If a situation like that comes up in real life, sure, I can understand the motivation to use torture; while still doubting it's efficiency. Having spent quite some time studying both Islamic radicalism and the history of the Norwegian resistance, I know they have one thing in common: If they know their guy has been busted, or even suspect so, they leave. Bomb factory = gone.

Against really dumb enemies, the "location of the bomb factory"-thing would work. But those guys in AQ and thereabouts are not really dumb, some of them are really frighteningly smart.

For those computer passwords, I imagine some of the best geeks in the world are employed by US intelligence. I would suppose they're better at cracking computers than at making people crack.

The Gestapo did manage to break up much off the Norwegian resistance late in the war. Their greatest successes? Infiltrators. Their most effective agent? This guy. A really nasty peace of work. Later on there was a Norwegian neo-Nazi band that called themselves the Rinnan band. Bad ****.

re: #791 Lokotes

Mancow wouldn't had suffered very much, really. He would had told his captors everything he knew.

Or a bunch of nonsense.

793 jcross1kirk  Sat, May 23, 2009 4:03:58pm

I watched it......that's it? That's torture?

Man....Mancow is a pansy.

794 freedomplow  Sat, May 23, 2009 11:49:23pm

Looks like waterboarding is a very effective tool that should be used only in extreme circumstances... Like a Presidential order.

Unfortunately people that want to be popular like 'Mancow' think they helped the cause.

What cause did he help? The dictator in Iran, Saudi Arabia, Sudan or the dictator in North Korea that would use this on anyone that they disagree with or don't like.

Shame on the people that released this classified information.

The Waterboarding of three Al-Qaeda killers was classified for a reason.

795 amir  Sun, May 24, 2009 1:33:38am

re: #792 oslogin

These interrogation techniques are not perfect. Intelligence gathered this way, and any other way, mus be checked and crossed with other sources of intelligence. The point is, that people whose job it is to keep us safe seem to think that aggressive interrogation are useful and therefore if we expect them to their job efficiently we have to give them the tools which they think are necessary in order for them to do their job. Is anything allowed? Well, obviously no, the legislature has to set boundaries, but this technique appears to me to be within the boundaries of what should be allowed.

Should this be called torture? In my opinion no. Their must be a degree of severity before you call something torture. For those who are saying, lets call this torture and then discuss to which degree we allow torture, that's not going to work. Once you ascertain that it is torture nobody is going to allow it. No elected official, that's for sure. It's like being a labeled a racist. Once you are labeled a racist nothing else you say will be considered legitimate.

796 Øyvind Strømmen  Sun, May 24, 2009 4:10:36am

re: #795 amir

Once you ascertain that it is torture nobody is going to allow it. No elected official, that's for sure.

Definitely possible. But that does not mean that it is not torture, and defining it as something else just to avoid the political implications is newspeak.

In fact, If elected officials - not to mention their electorate - have a problem with torture that is fully understandable. Torture, defined in U.S. law as " an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering (other than pain or suffering incidental to lawful sanctions) upon another person within his custody or physical control", is in clear violation of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, article 5.

The American legal definition includes "the administration or application, or threatened administration or application, of mind-altering substances or other procedures calculated to disrupt profoundly the senses or the personality", and "the threat of imminent death" (18 U.S.C. § 2340). Using a method that gives subjects the feeling of drowning definitely falls under the definition.

Whether U.S. laws applies in the relevant cases is of course disputable, but the definition of torture does apply. In regards to waterboarding, Charles keeps to the definition of torture, and then argues that it can be acceptable in very exceptional cases. While I disagree with his conclusion that torture may be acceptable in very exceptional cases, I understand his reasoning - and I can certainly see the motivation for using torture in such cases. I fear - however - that the motive of revenge can easily come into play.

I appreciate Charles' honesty, and the fact that he does not resort to newspeak.

797 amir  Sun, May 24, 2009 10:07:06am

re: #796 oslogin

I don't think it's newspeak. There is a difference between a legal definition and a layman's definition of torture. The definition you provided is "an act committed by a person acting under the color of law specifically intended to inflict severe physical or mental pain or suffering ". Is this SEVERE physical or mental pain or suffering? Where do you draw the line between moderate and severe pain or suffering? The legal definition of torture, in my opinion, should be one which leaves our intelligence agencies with enough tools to do their job.

798 Øyvind Strømmen  Mon, May 25, 2009 6:42:37am

re: #797 amir

True. It is the legal definition. In 1983, a Texas sheriff - James Parker - and several of his deputies were prosecuted and jailed for using waterboarding. The reason? It was considered torture. There were several precedents. Parker got 10 years in prison.

The fact that you - and many other - consider waterboarding as a necessary tool for intelligence agencies does not make torture non-torture. If you support the use of waterboarding, you support the use of torture - it's that simple. And then the interesting discussions arise: is torture ever defendable? Does it even work? And does any potential gains outweigh the costs?

799 Sceptic Tank  Mon, May 25, 2009 9:17:27am

Both Mancow and Hitchens should be applauded for actually undergoing this valid interogation technique.

800 amir  Mon, May 25, 2009 10:21:16am

re: #798 oslogin

I have no idea if waterboarding is a necessary investigative tool but apparently the CIA or many people in the CIA think it is, otherwise this wouldn't even be a controversy. But, I have an idea. Rather than call waterboarding torture, why don't we call it ... "waterboarding." Then we can find out if the CIA thinks it's an important tool, we can discuss its long term physical effects on people, decide whether it is moral or not, useful or not and whether we as a society want our security forces to use it or not and under what circumstances. Maybe we'll decide it's never moral to use it and we'll ban it. The only reason it's opponents want to call it torture (and most of those who want to call it torture oppose it) is so that they can say to its supporters: "If you support the use of waterboarding, you support the use of torture - it's that simple" and then they would add "case closed." I think discussing the merits of an issue rather than labeling it and then discussing the label is more useful.

801 Ty85719  Mon, May 25, 2009 1:04:23pm

This is an interesting article, as I am quite certain that I have seen "Mancow" on an interview (well before he ever went through the waterboarding scenario) declaring that waterboarding was, indeed, torture.


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