Tapscott: ‘Cap and Traitor’ Is Over the Line

Environment • Views: 5,981

The Washington Examiner’s Mark Tapscott asks people on the right to dial down the rhetoric a little bit on the cap-and-trade bill.

Could somebody please explain the difference between people on the Right calling the eight GOP congressmen who voted for the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade anti-global warming energy bill “cap and traitors” and the far lefties at Moveon.org calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”?

Sorry, folks, but, as much as I agree this bill is a disaster for America, calling these eight RINOs “traitors” is beyond the line. Here’s why: The word “traitor” has specific reference to national loyalty. Benedict Arnold was a traitor, as were spies like John Walker, Julius and Ethel Rosenberg, and Aldrich Hazen Ames. The traditional penalty for treason is death, though in recent decades that sentence has been all but forgotten in the U.S., though not in other nations.

When somebody promises you they will take a certain course of action not involving national loyalty, but then does another, they are a rat, a double-crosser, or a jerk, but they are not a traitor because national security is not jeopardized by their failure to do what they promised to do. The Obama-Waxman-Markey bill will certainly burden the U.S. economy, but it won’t destroy it. Thus, referring to the eight GOP members who voted for the bill is unjustified.

Following the publication of this editorial, Tapscott was promptly attacked by that faction of the right wing who believe it’s their turn to get their rage on and anybody who tries to talk them out of it is just another traitor.

UPDATE: A challenge for my critics

My goodness, I seem to have stuck my head into a hornet’s nest. Rather than attempting to respond to each of the arguments being presented by those who disagree with me (and there is a logical, non-abusive case to be made contrary to my view), I would simply ask my critics to show me one example of Ronald Reagan calling a single one of his opponents traitors.

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556 comments
1 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:25:35pm

Traitorous to their supposed ideals.

2 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:25:36pm

Big plus for the update.

3 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:25:49pm
4 Land Shark  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:26:05pm

The Republicans who voted for this bill are blithering idiots, just like every Democrat who voted for it. Traitors is way too strong and doesn't apply here.

5 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:26:16pm

I can see that. They're not traitors. Stupid maybe, traitors no.

6 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:26:46pm

Crap-n-Fraud.

7 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:27:06pm
I would simply ask my critics to show me one example of Ronald Reagan calling a single one of his opponents traitors.

Many on the right want to hold up Reagan, but they seem to have forgotten he was first and foremost a man of class and dignity.

8 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:27:13pm

re: #6 JCM

Crap-n-Fraud.

I like that one.

9 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:27:23pm

Those who are attacking Tapscott for trying to maintain civility in the political discourse aren't going to stop there even with his argument to authority (Ronald Reagan - apparently the last one that the right wing considers their own). That will hardly be sufficient, but the fact is that cap and trade is a disastrous policy that wont do what its proponents claim and will significantly increase costs, creating a drag on the economy when it can least afford it.

You can argue the politics without making it personal. Some people just wont.

10 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:27:29pm

Sorry I think they are triators to the Republican party. Obama has to be stopped once and then it will get easier. He is going to bankrupt this country. I am not going to go ballistic over the use of the word. I may not have used that word, but it's use does NOT upset me.

11 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:27:58pm

re: #3 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with Tapscott. Everyone knows it's "capon trade."

I thought it was more like capon prosperity. A plan to redistribute wealth above a certain cap to China and India who don't need no stinkin' caps.

12 sngnsgt  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:28:43pm

re: #6 JCM

Crap-n-Fraud.

I'm stealing this one.

13 ackomanyuki  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:28:59pm

Naives....its Cap and Slave.

14 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:29:13pm
15 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:29:16pm

re: #3 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with Tapscott. Everyone knows it's "capon trade."

capon trade and a capon is a neutered rooster and....
I have a new kookspiracy theory! (see how easy it is?)

16 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:29:19pm

Republicans have forgotten a key ingredient of maintaining a majority: Elected congresscritters need to serve the aims, interests, and will of the people of their state.

17 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:29:29pm
18 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:29:46pm

I don't quite understand. Over-heated rhetoric existed, exists, and will always exist in the political sphere -- especially on the internet. Who cares that someone said "General Betrayus" and someone else said "Cap and Traitors"? Of what significance are these people's opinions?

I mean, someone on the playground yesterday said my momma was fat -- now, that's grounds for war!

19 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:17pm

re: #12 sngnsgt

Funny thing is, "Crap-n-Fraud" works for both left and right when describing the bill. Neither really likes it.

20 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:24pm

Sellout comes to mind.

21 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:26pm

re: #14 Ben Hur

Waxman: GOP "Rooting Against Country" Because Of Energy Bill Vote

Betraying the Planet

Shut the fuck up, Henry.

22 alegrias  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:48pm

Paul Krugman the shrieking New York Times megaphone leftist also is pretty hysterical on this issue.

Did you all discuss the fauxtography concerning that Polar Bear supposedly dying on a breakaway ice floe in the North Pole?

Al Gore's been using that image to scare people, but the photographer of that iconic image said CLIMATE CRISIS wasn't involved in the Polar Bear on Ice pic.

23 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:52pm

And I don't see calling someone who voted against his party a traitor, though harsh, anywhere near the General Patraeus thing.

24 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:30:52pm

re: #18 zombie

How fat was she?

25 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:10pm

re: #3 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with Tapscott. Everyone knows it's "capon trade."

Roosters with no balls. Makes sense.

26 JarHeadLifer  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:11pm

The difference between what some on the right are calling the 8 GOP defectors and what Moveon.org did to Petraeus, is simple; Petraeus was a career military man who was not part of the political machine, in any way, by regulation whereas these GOPers are career politicians.

Outrageous rhetoric against political enemies only isn't permissible, it's downright patriotic - at least that's what we were told when GWB was the target of such vitriolic and inflammatory comments.

27 sngnsgt  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:12pm

re: #18 zombie

I don't quite understand. Over-heated rhetoric existed, exists, and will always exist in the political sphere -- especially on the internet. Who cares that someone said "General Betrayus" and someone else said "Cap and Traitors"? Of what significance are these people's opinions?

I mean, someone on the playground yesterday said my momma was fat -- now, that's grounds for war!

Oh yea, she dresses you funny too! /

28 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:17pm

re: #3 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with Tapscott. Everyone knows it's "capon trade."

damn chickens

29 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:38pm

re: #14 Ben Hur

Waxman: GOP "Rooting Against Country" Because Of Energy Bill Vote

See? Exactly what I was trying to say.

The left gets free reign to say all sorts of over-the-top exaggerations. Even the politicians themselves -- not merely pundits.

30 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:45pm
31 jorline  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:31:45pm

I think it was Shug who coined this line yesterday.

"I'd like to put a cap on Congress and then trade them".

32 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:02pm

re: #3 buzzsawmonkey

I agree with Tapscott. Everyone knows it's "capon trade."

Wow, those Dems sure love the cock

33 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:03pm

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How fat was she?

There's a joke there that involves sex and flour.

34 jcbunga  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:10pm

It depends to what extent this nonsense will damage the country and whether it's Constitutional.

Is it true that somewhere in this beast of a bill are provisions requiring houses to be inspected for their eco-worthiness?

If so, how can that be something the founders envisioned?

The entire concept of elected officials voting for a massive tax increase without even reading the damn thing is enough for me to want them all out. How is it representative government when programs of this scope become the law of the land without even a public review?

They are traitors by complicity in this sham of a process.

35 lawhawk  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:16pm

re: #6 JCM

Crap-n-Fraud.

Cap'n Tax. And I'm sticking to it.

36 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:17pm

re: #23 Ben Hur

And I don't see calling someone who voted against his party a traitor, though harsh, anywhere near the General Patraeus thing.

Politicians are by nature and vocation liars, cheats, and traitors in one form or another. Generals are not.

37 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:19pm

re: #17 Ben Hur

Betraying the Planet

Krugman's off his rocker with that piece. He's trying to panic people rather than inform.

38 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:25pm

re: #24 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How fat was she?

She had to go to NASSCO for a facelift.

39 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:32:55pm

re: #30 buzzsawmonkey

MSM artists: "Climate denial is a form of treason."

Oh, but that's OK.

40 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:04pm

People keep using words over and over, and the meaning gets changed from years of misuse (see the song "Ironic" as an example). People yell out the word "traitor" as meaning someone doing something against what was originally promised.

That is /not/ a traitor.

I weep for the English language.

41 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:06pm

This is an internal GOP issue.

No one is allowed to meddle.

42 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:30pm

What angers me more than anything is that nobody had time to read the entire bill, but yet they voted for it. There must be a lot of self-interest involved with any republican who voted for this bill.

43 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:30pm

re: #29 zombie

See? Exactly what I was trying to say.

The left gets free reign to say all sorts of over-the-top exaggerations. Even the politicians themselves -- not merely pundits.

"The Unexamined life party is not worth living Joining."
-- Socrates or someone like that

44 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:45pm

re: #9 lawhawk

Those who are attacking Tapscott for trying to maintain civility in the political discourse aren't going to stop there even with his argument to authority (Ronald Reagan - apparently the last one that the right wing considers their own). That will hardly be sufficient, but the fact is that cap and trade is a disastrous policy that wont do what its proponents claim and will significantly increase costs, creating a drag on the economy when it can least afford it.

You can argue the politics without making it personal. Some people just wont.

Civility is dead.

45 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:47pm

Hugh Hewitt's name for it is Cap-n-Tax-n-Tax-n-Tax.

46 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:33:57pm

"Knee-cap and trade". Mob style.

47 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:34:08pm

re: #16 Thanos

Republicans have forgotten a key ingredient of maintaining a majority: Elected congresscritters need to serve the aims, interests, and will of the people of their state.

Why does Waxman, a congressman, get to say that his critics are "rooting against the country", and still maintain his seat?

Because Congresspeople represent their districts, not the nation at large, and if it plays well in your district to badmouth the other side -- why not go for the gusto?

The days of playing nicey-nice in politics is long, long past.

48 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:13pm

re: #30 buzzsawmonkey

MSM artists: "Climate denial is a form of treason."

Next: skepticism, not of AGW in general, but about whether the proposed legislation is worth the costs or even effective in the first place, will be compared to holocaust denial as well.

49 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:43pm

re: #40 MrSilverDragon

I weep for the English language.

Like a freshly lanced carbuncle.

50 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:44pm

Dear Mr Tapscott:

Although I agree that the use of the word 'traitor' is incorrect in this instance, I would also say that, unless you are an English Professor, I believe the space would be better used explaining the pros and cons of the Cap on Trade Bill and how it will impact our lives.

You are dealing with the trees instead of the forest.

Sincerely,
me

51 DisturbedEma  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:49pm

did I miss the thread discussing this?re: #44 Sharmuta

Civility is dead.

52 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:54pm

re: #47 zombie

The days of playing nicey-nice in politics is long, long past.

They never really existed but in our collective fantasy world. Go back and reread the vile filth put out against Adams and Jefferson by their enemies.

53 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:35:55pm

re: #48 ArchangelMichael

Next: skepticism, not of AGW in general, but about whether the proposed legislation is worth the costs or even effective in the first place, will be compared to holocaust denial as well.

Too late; already happened.

54 calcajun  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:12pm

re: #4 Land Shark

The Republicans who voted for this bill are blithering idiots, just like every Democrat who voted for it. Traitors is way too strong and doesn't apply here.

More like craven political animals--they did it because there was something in it for them. Either that, or Nancy Pelosi has photographs of them with either altar boys or howler monkeys.

55 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:13pm

Can't we just call those who voted for it FUCKING MORONS? Works for me.

56 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:14pm

re: #47 zombie

You might as well ask how he ever got elected with PP's nose.

57 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:16pm

This widely circulated new photo shows a Air Force F-22 Raptor aircraft participating in an exercise in the Gulf of Alaska June 22, 2009 as it executes a supersonic flyby over the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis.


[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Now this is cool and worth the look.

58 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:30pm

re: #52 Honorary Yooper

They never really existed but in our collective fantasy world. Go back and reread the vile filth put out against Adams and Jefferson by their enemies.

It is a myth, like the unbiased Press.

59 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:53pm

re: #30 buzzsawmonkey

MSM artists: "Climate denial is a form of treason."

The examples are endless of the Left using abusive, incendiary, false, exaggerated, mocking and outrageous verbiage against Republicans.

Oh, but the Republicans need to remain civil, because as John McCain proved so well, being civil wins elections.

60 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:36:55pm
61 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:37:18pm

re: #49 Creeping Eruption

Like a freshly lanced carbuncle.

I said weep, not ooze!

62 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:37:31pm

re: #36 Nevergiveup

Politicians are by nature and vocation liars, cheats, and traitors in one form or another. Generals are not.

Yes. And the present hysteria from the likes of Waxman and Krugman, combined with what i can only think of as the too-gullible Cap N' Tax Eight, can only be described by that insightful phrase coined by General Russel Honore during the aftermath of Katrina;

They are all stuck on stupid.

cheers

eon

63 calcajun  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:37:35pm

re: #52 Honorary Yooper

They never really existed but in our collective fantasy world. Go back and reread the vile filth put out against Adams and Jefferson by their enemies.

True. If anything, the nastiness has been dialed down a lot.

64 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:37:40pm

Anyone who thinks they can get internet idiot knee-jerkers to be civilized in their rhetoric hasn't been reading rabid right-wing sites. You can't shut them up and you can't get them to behave. You can delete them and ban them. Then they will create their own sites where they can be as rabid as they like, and they do.

65 DisturbedEma  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:37:43pm

re: #61 MrSilverDragon

I said weep, not ooze!

Um, be more specific. . .:)

66 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:02pm

And then of course there's www.frontpagemag.com...]>Obama's chief science advisor

67 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:06pm

Another point not brought up in the article: Why does denial of global warming have to be a conservative/Republican issue? It doesn't really have anything to do with conservatism, does it?

68 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:21pm

re: #59 zombie

The examples are endless of the Left using abusive, incendiary, false, exaggerated, mocking and outrageous verbiage against Republicans.

Oh, but the Republicans need to remain civil, because as John McCain proved so well, being civil wins elections.

Nobody likes a winner.

/waiting for Roman Senate rules to kick in

69 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:25pm

re: #47 zombie

The days of playing nicey-nice in politics is long, long past.

I want House of Commons style screaming and cussing. Make CSPAN worth watching.

70 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:33pm
71 calcajun  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:38:35pm

re: #60 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe it's time to quit this professional thing and open up a nice little Italian restaurant. "Traitorria" has a nice ring to it.

Just don't take any reservations from a police captain for late in the evening./

72 Creeping Eruption  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:10pm

re: #61 MrSilverDragon

I said weep, not ooze!

re: #61 MrSilverDragon

I said weep, not ooze!

"Weep" - A transitive verb : to exude (a fluid) slowly : ooze

73 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:17pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Another point not brought up in the article: Why does denial of global warming have to be a conservative/Republican issue? It doesn't really have anything to do with conservatism, does it?

Yeah it does. Money and Capitalism! Not to mention National Sovereignty.

74 calcajun  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:32pm

re: #69 ArchangelMichael

I want House of Commons style screaming and cussing. Make CSPAN worth watching.

Now that's something fun to watch! Political rugby!

75 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:36pm

Rather than focusing on what these Republicans were called, I believe the American people NEED to know what is in the Cap and Trade bill.
But will that info get out?
I doubt it.
It will be "He called them traitors!" or "all Michael, all the time".
By the way: What's up with Iran?

Flowers to the Sheeple!

76 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:38pm

re: #57 Nevergiveup

This widely circulated new photo shows a Air Force F-22 Raptor aircraft participating in an exercise in the Gulf of Alaska June 22, 2009 as it executes a supersonic flyby over the flight deck of the aircraft carrier USS John C. Stennis.

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

Now this is cool and worth the look.

And every single Navy jock watching was thinking, "I have got to get one of those!"

/very cool indeed.

cheers

eon

77 Velvet Elvis  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:46pm

The only reason any republicans voted for is because far-left democrats like Kuchinich refused to because it wasn't pure enough so they had to throw a lot of crap in at the last minute to try and get republican votes.

Thanks for the pork Dennis.

78 billbrent  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:39:50pm

The eight Republicans are certainly betraying one of the primary principles upon which this country was founded - limited government.

79 DisturbedEma  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:40:12pm

re: #78 billbrent

The eight Republicans are certainly betraying one of the primary principles upon which this country was founded - limited government.

yep

80 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:40:17pm

re: #64 Sharmuta

Anyone who thinks they can get internet idiot knee-jerkers to be civilized in their rhetoric hasn't been reading rabid right-wing sites. You can't shut them up and you can't get them to behave. You can delete them and ban them. Then they will create their own sites where they can be as rabid as they like, and they do.

Addendum:

Anyone who thinks they can get internet idiot knee-jerkers to be civilized in their rhetoric hasn't been reading rabid left-wing sites. You can't shut them up and you can't get them to behave. You can delete them and ban them. Then they will create their own sites where they can be as rabid as they like, and they do.

81 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:40:19pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Another point not brought up in the article: Why does denial of global warming have to be a conservative/Republican issue? It doesn't really have anything to do with conservatism, does it?

Voting against Obama's cap and trade plan/scheme is denial of "global warming"? Aren't you missing an "a" for "anthropogenic"?

82 yochanan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:40:37pm

re: #18 zombie

what if my son's mommy is fat?

83 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:40:51pm

re: #76 eon

And every single Navy jock watching was thinking, "I have got to get one of those!"

/very cool indeed.

cheers

eon

Well the Navy don't fly them. They are Air Force Planes. Well kinda, since Obama and his toadie Gates are shit caning the line, no one will really be flying them.

84 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:41:01pm

re: #80 zombie

This isn't about the left. This is about the right.

85 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:41:07pm

re: #73 Nevergiveup

Yeah it does. Money and Capitalism! Not to mention National Sovereignty.

So even if man made global warming is real then it should still be opposed as a matter of conservative principal?

86 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:41:11pm

re: #82 yochanan

what if my son's mommy is fat?

Buy a ticket to Argentina

87 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:41:46pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

It's about both.

88 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:42:17pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

So even if man made global warming is real then it should still be opposed as a matter of conservative principal?

Your making assumptions I don't agree with.

89 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:42:29pm
90 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:42:37pm

re: #66 Occasional Reader

And then of course there's Obama's chief science advisor

.... who's amenable to the concept that "climate change deniers" could perhaps be charged with crimes against humanity.

(Yo, Mr. Beaumont, something is definitely up with the HTML link function.)

91 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:07pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

This isn't about the left. This is about the right.

Which Right?
The right Right, or the wrong Right?
And which is which?

92 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:12pm

re: #60 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe it's time to quit this professional thing and open up a nice little Italian restaurant. "Traitorria" has a nice ring to it.

Will you serve eggs Benedict Arnold for breakfast?

93 alegrias  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:17pm

re: #30 buzzsawmonkey

MSM artists: "Climate denial is a form of treason."

* * * *
Buzz,

It's Climate CRISIS denial, that's treasonous.

94 yochanan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #76 eon

Prandtl-Glauert singularity.

95 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:24pm

re: #59 zombie

The examples are endless of the Left using abusive, incendiary, false, exaggerated, mocking and outrageous verbiage against Republicans.
Oh, but the Republicans need to remain civil, because as John McCain proved so well, being civil wins elections.

The Left has used those tactics most of my life and has shut down reasonable discourse and turned it into a knife fight. It is high time that the Right fight back, in kind.

96 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:41pm

re: #84 Sharmuta

This isn't about the left. This is about the right.

Both sides have overblown rhetoric. Its just the MSM ignores the left's rabble and holds up the right's as being the core of conservatism.

97 Sharmuta  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:43:50pm

re: #91 IslandLibertarian

Which Right?
The right Right, or the wrong Right?
And which is which?

The rabid right.

98 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:44:02pm

re: #80 zombie

Addendum:

Anyone who thinks they can get internet idiot knee-jerkers to be civilized in their rhetoric hasn't been reading rabid left-wing sites. You can't shut them up and you can't get them to behave. You can delete them and ban them. Then they will create their own sites where they can be as rabid as they like, and they do.

The other thing you are not paying attention to: These aren't the enemy, they are Republicans, and as I noted above the probably think they are representing their district's best interests on the cap and trade bill. I can disagree with them & argue with them all I want, but I'm not going to pull out the long knife and carve "RINO" in their hide.

99 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:44:11pm

re: #13 ackomanyuki

Naives....its Cap and Slave.

can i borrow this for the 4th of July parade?

100 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:44:26pm

re: #90 Occasional Reader

.... who's amenable to the concept that "climate change deniers" could perhaps be charged with crimes against humanity.

(Yo, Mr. Beaumont, something is definitely up with the HTML link function.)

"Denier" and "denial" ... all used to evoke Holocaust Denial

101 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:44:51pm
102 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:45:22pm

/pimf the==they

103 MrSilverDragon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:45:47pm

re: #72 Creeping Eruption

"Weep" - A transitive verb : to exude (a fluid) slowly : ooze

I was trying to keep it in a more positive connotation... Saying "I ooze for the English Language"... not very... pleasant.

104 yochanan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:46:03pm

this will raise the cost of heating and cooling and many poor people might die because of it.

105 ointmentfly  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:46:29pm

The cap and trade 8 are from liberal districts and did what they did knowing that it will die in the senate. Politics is politics.

106 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:46:43pm

re: #98 Thanos

I think they are representing THEIR best interests.

107 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:46:55pm

re: #66 Occasional Reader

And then of course there's Obama's chief science advisor

Astounding.

So, Obama's chief science advisor wrote this:

"Compulsory Abortion for American Women

The trio prescribed a rigidly enforced, government-imposed limit of two children per family. Holdren and the Ehrlichs maintained "there exists ample authority under which population growth could be regulated." Hiding behind the passive voice, they note, "it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society." (Emphasis added.) To underscore they mean business, they conclude, "If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" (pp. 837-838). Moreover, if the United States government refuses to take proper measures, they authorize the United Nations to take compelling force."

And here we are, dithering over somebody using playground insults.

108 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:47:19pm
109 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:47:24pm

re: #81 OldLineTexan

Voting against Obama's cap and trade plan/scheme is denial of "global warming"? Aren't you missing an "a" for "anthropogenic"?

You don't like the "anthropogenic" part?

Isn't that the most important bit? If it's not anthropogenic, then cap and trade won't help, right?

Looks like Denial is not a province of the Right alone.

110 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:47:27pm

re: #106 VioletTiger

I think they are representing THEIR best interests.

Got a link to prove it? That would be a big story.

111 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:47:45pm

re: #83 Nevergiveup

Well the Navy don't fly them. They are Air Force Planes. Well kinda, since Obama and his toadie Gates are shit caning the line, no one will really be flying them.

I know. The Navy also thinks that they made a serious mistake fourteen years ago, when they failed to pick up the option to build a navalized version of the Northrop/Grumman YF-23, that was the loser in the flyoff with the YF-22.

It worked before. Their present standard multirole fighter/bomber, the F/A-18E Super Hornet, started life in 1973 as the Northrop YF-17 Cobra, the loser in the USAF Lightweight Fighter competition. The winner, of course, being the General Dynamics (now Lockheed) F-16 Fighting Falcon, better known to everyone who actually builds or flies it as the Viper.

cheers

eon

112 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:48:56pm

re: #105 ointmentfly

The cap and trade 8 are from liberal districts and did what they did knowing that it will die in the senate. Politics is politics.

I wish I could be confident that it will die in the senate. I am fearful that it won't.
At least there should be time enough for the senate to read the bill.
I wish the public would take the time to get informed on this because I suspect if they did, there would be a lot more outrage than there is now.

113 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:49:06pm

Could somebody please explain the difference between people on the Right calling the eight GOP congressmen who voted for the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade anti-global warming energy bill “cap and traitors” and the far lefties at Moveon.org calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”?

Rules for Radicals cuts both ways. It makes for a catchy phrase that you can hang a hat on.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

----

Sorry but that is the politics we are in. Kinda like Adams vs Jefferson a couple of centuries back.

114 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:49:36pm
115 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:49:52pm

re: #92 KenJen

Will you serve eggs Benedict Arnold for breakfast?

Of course, at the Traittoria, buzzsawmonkey Ames to please. Your host will great you with a hearty "Haw Haw! It's good to see you!", and tempt with with a delicious Julius Rosenburger. He never Fawkes around... the customer comes first.

116 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:50:18pm

re: #98 Thanos

The other thing you are not paying attention to: These aren't the enemy, they are Republicans, and as I noted above the probably think they are representing their district's best interests on the cap and trade bill. I can disagree with them & argue with them all I want, but I'm not going to pull out the long knife and carve "RINO" in their hide.

I don't pay any attention to Internet punditry, and I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so I don't give a flying leap who accused who of being a RINO or a DINO. Nor do I consider members of either party to be either automatic enemies nor automatic allies.

117 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:50:45pm
118 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:50:58pm

re: #88 Nevergiveup

I was not assuming I was asking a question. The lefties felt very strongly that Patraeus was destroying the country and labeled him a traitor. They failed to recognize the possibility that they were wrong and he was right. Same applies to this situation. I think the problem comes from the mentality that people cannot possible even imagine a reasonable person might have an opposing view point.
I strongly suspect the rhetoric surround the cap and trade bill is way overblown. It's probably not good legislation but it's not the end of the country. The politician who voted for it thought they were doing the right thing.

119 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:04pm

re: #113 Shr_Nfr

Could somebody please explain the difference between people on the Right calling the eight GOP congressmen who voted for the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade anti-global warming energy bill “cap and traitors” and the far lefties at Moveon.org calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”?

Rules for Radicals cuts both ways. It makes for a catchy phrase that you can hang a hat on.

RULE 12: Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it, and polarize it." Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. Go after people and not institutions; people hurt faster than institutions. (This is cruel, but very effective. Direct, personalized criticism and ridicule works.)

----

Sorry but that is the politics we are in. Kinda like Adams vs Jefferson a couple of centuries back.

No difference whatsoever.

120 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:05pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

I deny that there is an dinosaur in the room with me right this minute. Does this make be a denier?

121 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:06pm

re: #113 Shr_Nfr

----

Sorry but that is the politics we are in. Kinda like Adams vs Jefferson a couple of centuries back.

Let's just hope we don't end up at the Burr vs. Hamilton level.

cheers

eon

122 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:10pm

re: #113 Shr_Nfr

If people think this rhetoric is bad, they haven't read much US History. Some of the things written about Lincoln for example would make a troofer say "what the hell are you crazy?"

123 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:11pm
124 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:11pm

re: #107 zombie

But he is so well spoken and charming, dontchaknow?

/

And any man who so much as thinks my daughters are going to have to put up with that will regret it.

125 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:42pm

re: #110 Thanos

Got a link to prove it? That would be a big story.

No link and I don't think it would be a big story either.

126 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:44pm

re: #114 buzzsawmonkey

"Denier" always makes me think of stockings.

It is a nylon fabric thing, now that you mention it.

Nylon is made from petroleum.

Petroleum is extracted from the earth by drilling.

Cap and trade (supposedly) bans domestic drilling.

People against cap trade are now "deniers".

A pattern emerges ...

///

127 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:51:55pm

re: #109 OldLineTexan

No, I downdinged because it's a strawman argument.

128 Ward Cleaver  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:03pm

re: #10 Nevergiveup

Sorry I think they are triators to the Republican party. Obama has to be stopped once and then it will get easier. He is going to bankrupt this country. I am not going to go ballistic over the use of the word. I may not have used that word, but it's use does NOT upset me.

The GOP has never been as good as the Dems at keeping people in line when it comes to votes. There's no good reason the GOP shouldn't have gotten a solid NO vote on this bill. Schtoopid.

129 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:11pm

re: #115 Occasional Reader

great you

greet you... [gah]

130 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:21pm

re: #116 zombie

I don't pay any attention to Internet punditry, and I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so I don't give a flying leap who accused who of being a RINO or a DINO. Nor do I consider members of either party to be either automatic enemies nor automatic allies.

At least if you're a DINO you get to jump on Fred and lick his face.

/

131 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:32pm
132 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:34pm

re: #119 TheMatrix31

From my study of the past 5,000 years of history it has been always thus.

133 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:39pm
The lefties felt very strongly that Patraeus was destroying the country and labeled him a traitor.

That's not why they did it.

134 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:52:57pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

No, I downdinged because it's a strawman argument.

Ah, yes, the world's finest dodge.

There's no strawman there, but dream away.

135 ointmentfly  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:53:19pm

re: #112 VioletTiger

I wish I could be confident that it will die in the senate. I am fearful that it won't.
At least there should be time enough for the senate to read the bill.
I wish the public would take the time to get informed on this because I suspect if they did, there would be a lot more outrage than there is now.

I think if there were a glimmer of a recovery happening with our economy it would have a slight chance of passage, but jacking energy costs even a little at this point might cost the democrats seats in '10. They are going to protect their political power first. Nobody is buying the green jobs bullshit.

136 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:53:40pm

re: #109 OldLineTexan

You don't like the "anthropogenic" part?

Isn't that the most important bit? If it's not anthropogenic, then cap and trade won't help, right?

Looks like Denial is not a province of the Right alone.

137 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:53:47pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Another point not brought up in the article: Why does denial of global warming have to be a conservative/Republican issue? It doesn't really have anything to do with conservatism, does it?

Um... yes, it does. To the extent that the anthro-global-warming crowd are seeking national... and trans-national... regulation of practically every productive activity, that is a DEEPLY non-conservative position. Get it now?

138 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:54:05pm

re: #121 eon

It would be really bad to be saddled with a Burr. Although the duel was fought over something that was similar to what moveon did in 2006.

enough horseplay.

139 kawfytawk  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:54:29pm

They are traitors to the party that were trying to take a stand against this crap of a bill. Too strong...whatever....I am so way beyond disgusted with congress.....It seems hardly worth the effort. I do know that my congressman could care less about his constituents (traitorous?) He only voted no to save his job. On any other given vote he is a dem bobblehead

140 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:54:46pm

re: #131 buzzsawmonkey

"Denier" is a measure of fiber thickness that is usually used to describe the nylon in stockings (and laptop totes).

Women's stockings, and laptops... where is your mind this afternoon, buzz?

141 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:54:48pm

re: #100 OldLineTexan

"Denier" and "denial" ... all used to evoke Holocaust Denial

The problem is, anyone who questions their solutions is also labelled a "denier". I have serious doubts about their solutions and if they've actually separated "human" from "natural" causes well enough. Climate changes. We, like other animals, and other living things for that matter, can effect changes. Yet, because someone like me dares to ask if we've separated the two well enough, and questions the viability and cost of the solutions, I get called a "denier".

The "denier" term is starting to be used as one uses the term "fascist" or "racist", thrown around at people who don't even deserve the term with a complete lack of respect for what the term really means.

142 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:54:53pm

re: #67 Killgore Trout

Another point not brought up in the article: Why does denial of global warming have to be a conservative/Republican issue? It doesn't really have anything to do with conservatism, does it?

it isn't the denial of global warming, it is that the liberals/dems have made it one of their holy grails and have, in effect, said "we are for green, therefore the other guy must be against green" as well as "to make things green, we need lots more of your green, pony up people"

143 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:04pm

re: #137 Occasional Reader

Um... yes, it does. To the extent that the anthro-global-warming crowd are seeking national... and trans-national... regulation of practically every productive activity, that is a DEEPLY non-conservative position. Get it now?

Now, now, that's a strawman (mntioning "anthropogenic" as a key part of the "debate", that is).

144 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:04pm

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

But he is so well spoken and charming, dontchaknow?

/

And any man who so much as thinks my daughters are going to have to put up with that will regret it.

Oh really?

What are you going to do about it?

When U.S. Marshalls, enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America, come to your house and drag your daughters away to have an abortion against their will, what could you do about it?

Nothing.

145 ointmentfly  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:41pm

re: #119 TheMatrix31

No difference whatsoever.

Calling a general with his ass on the line in a war to protect our interests, if not our lives, a traitor is far more serious than people in a political party calling people in the same party traitors... C'mon

146 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:43pm
147 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:46pm

re: #144 zombie

Oh really?

What are you going to do about it?

When U.S. Marshalls, enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America, come to your house and drag your daughters away to have an abortion against their will, what could you do about it?

Nothing.

Not be in the US

148 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:55pm
149 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:55:59pm
150 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:08pm

re: #135 ointmentfly

I think if there were a glimmer of a recovery happening with our economy it would have a slight chance of passage, but jacking energy costs even a little at this point might cost the democrats seats in '10. They are going to protect their political power first. Nobody is buying the green jobs bullshit.


I hope you are right. I am not confident that anyone is really paying attention. I also think that if you were actually able to follow the money, you would find the real reasons why this stuff is being pushed.

151 irongrampa  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:12pm

re: #112 VioletTiger

I will bet Crap and Turd will pass the Senate. With the addition of Franken, the Dems have a filibuster-proof majority, if my math is correct. Any amendments will be made with the express purpose of aiding Dem Senators whose special interest groups would be adversely affected by it.

Watch and see.

152 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:14pm

re: #138 Shr_Nfr

It would be really bad to be saddled with a Burr. Although the duel was fought over something that was similar to what moveon did in 2006.

enough horseplay.

Should I have added

/I'm not kidding

to that post?

/because believe me, I'm not.

cheers

eon

153 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:27pm

re: #144 zombie

Oh really?

What are you going to do about it?

When U.S. Marshalls, enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America, come to your house and drag your daughters away to have an abortion against their will, what could you do about it?

Nothing.

That's the reason the 2nd Amendment exists in the first place. Even lefties can get a copy of the Federalist Papers and read them.

154 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:28pm

re: #125 VioletTiger

No link and I don't think it would be a big story either.

I think it would be, if we can show quid pro quo for the folks who voted for this we have a chance of making sure it stops in the senate.

155 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:30pm

re: #141 Honorary Yooper

And there you have it. Well stated.

So much for civilized discourse when the very language is laden with cynically-derived emotional baggage.

156 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:56:49pm

re: #85 Killgore Trout

So even if man made global warming is real then it should still be opposed as a matter of conservative principal?

I think the conservatie principle would be to do a reasoned cost benefit analysis laying out courses of action and their estimated results.
It certainly wouldn't consist of rushing to pass a draconian tax scheme without even reading it, for crying out loud.

157 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:57:41pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Big difference. using the term "traitor" against a member of the Armed Forces who is defending this Country is despicable. The General was only carrying out the Policy of the Elected Civilian Government of the United States of America. The General might have been it's author, but the decision to carry it out was solely that of the President of the United States. Therefore the Liberals were not only obscene but also ignorant to utter the word. However, if fellow Republicans think that other Republican legislators are defying the will of those that elected them and defied the principals of the REPUBLICAN Party and think there actions are treacherous, well what's wrong with that. They were not being "traitors" to their country but to their party. A vastly different thing.

158 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:58:10pm

re: #156 LGoPs

I think the conservatie principle would be to do a reasoned cost benefit analysis laying out courses of action and their estimated results.
It certainly wouldn't consist of rushing to pass a draconian tax scheme without even reading it, for crying out loud.

CBA isn't in the left's vocabulary and hasn't been since FDR.

159 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:58:13pm

re: #143 OldLineTexan

Now, now, that's a strawman (mntioning "anthropogenic" as a key part of the "debate", that is).

As the Tao Te Ching almost says:

Heaven and earth are ruthless, and treat the myriad posts as straw men

160 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:58:26pm
161 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:58:34pm
162 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:58:50pm

re: #116 zombie

I don't pay any attention to Internet punditry, and I am neither a Republican nor a Democrat, so I don't give a flying leap who accused who of being a RINO or a DINO. Nor do I consider members of either party to be either automatic enemies nor automatic allies.

What's most interesting is that Tapscott was CPAC journalist of the year, and has been one of the folks who's been running around with red hot "RINO" branding irons. The fact that he thinks it's over the top speaks for itself, and maybe represents a change. Maybe that's why Charles is highlighting this, I don't know.

163 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:59:10pm

re: #107 zombie

I want to tell my kids "breed hard and fast kids" multiply the family now because they wont be able to reproduce if certain persons have their way.

Last I heard the US is in negative population growth. Is this still true?

164 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 1:59:37pm

re: #145 ointmentfly

Calling a general with his ass on the line in a war to protect our interests, if not our lives, a traitor is far more serious than people in a political party calling people in the same party traitors... C'mon

I meant that it's utter hypocrisy that one gets called out and the other doesn't.

Calling Petraeus that is, BY FAR, worse.

165 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:02pm

re: #144 zombie

Wow. Like that would ever happen.

166 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:10pm

re: #162 Thanos

What's most interesting is that Tapscott was CPAC journalist of the year, and has been one of the folks who's been running around with red hot "RINO" branding irons. The fact that he thinks it's over the top speaks for itself, and maybe represents a change. Maybe that's why Charles is highlighting this, I don't know.

/insert Dean scream

You said the magic woid!

/I'll be in the root cellar, draining a barrel

167 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:16pm

The commentators are just following in the footsteps of the left who declared our dependence on fossil fuels a "national security threat".

The complete and utter stupidity of our elected officials is a bigger national security threat than oil or greenhouse gasses.

168 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:32pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not be in the US


there's a canyon I can build a cabin in.

169 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:53pm

re: #154 Thanos

I think it would be, if we can show quid pro quo for the folks who voted for this we have a chance of making sure it stops in the senate.

I am actually going to look into it carefully for my district. I was floored that my rep voted for it. I feel a bit guilty that I made only one phone call and sent one email. Is it the environmental lobby or do they stand to gain in the trade part of cap and trade? I'd seriously like to know. Other than that I can't think of a legitimate reason to go for a bill that had a 300 page ammendment in the middle of the night, and includes provisions that could possibly tank the housing market just as it gets back off the ground.

170 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:00:59pm

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

Well, at least they can get a copy, for now.

Not sure about the second part, given the way reading is taught these days. Maybe if the Federalist Papers have been translated into Text Message...

congris can no tke ur gunz kplzthxbai

171 Cannadian Club Akbar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:01:25pm

re: #144 zombie

Oh really?

What are you going to do about it?

When U.S. Marshalls, enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America, come to your house and drag your daughters away to have an abortion against their will, what could you do about it?

Nothing.


Aim and Squeeze?

172 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:01:45pm

re: #170 ArchangelMichael

congris can no tke ur gunz kplzthxbai

To which the lefties generally say "LOL WUT?"

173 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:01:47pm

re: #162 Thanos

What's most interesting is that Tapscott was CPAC journalist of the year, and has been one of the folks who's been running around with red hot "RINO" branding irons. The fact that he thinks it's over the top speaks for itself, and maybe represents a change. Maybe that's why Charles is highlighting this, I don't know.

That is one reason I'm pointing it out.

174 yochanan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:02:13pm

re: #147 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Not be in the US

but maybe in the U.S.S.A.

175 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:02:57pm

re: #169 VioletTiger

I am actually going to look into it carefully for my district. I was floored that my rep voted for it. I feel a bit guilty that I made only one phone call and sent one email. Is it the environmental lobby or do they stand to gain in the trade part of cap and trade? I'd seriously like to know. Other than that I can't think of a legitimate reason to go for a bill that had a 300 page ammendment in the middle of the night, and includes provisions that could possibly tank the housing market just as it gets back off the ground.

The most likely thing you will find: that most of your power is coal, and that your rep traded vote for huge pollution credits.

176 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:02:58pm

re: #113 Shr_Nfr

Could somebody please explain the difference between people on the Right calling the eight GOP congressmen who voted for the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade anti-global warming energy bill “cap and traitors” and the far lefties at Moveon.org calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”?

Actually, there's quite a huge difference if you look at the context. General Petraeus wasn't elected by a constituency that expected him to represent them consistent with a set of articulated principles. Gen. Petraeus wasn't elected at all. Not had he ever represented himself as standing for one thing and then acted to the contrary. There was no issue of "betrayal" for Moveon, just an opportunity for cheap dig to show that they despise the military and everything it stands for. Yes, it was a catchy and clever phrase. But that's about all the two have a common.

That said, I commend Mark Tapscott for trying to dial down the rhetoric (to borrow Charles' very apt phrase). He makes a good point. And even if I don't entirely agree, I certainly wouldn't attack him for it.

177 DisturbedEma  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:00pm
178 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:33pm

Nirther on the last thread.

179 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:41pm

re: #163 Eowyn2

I want to tell my kids "breed hard and fast kids" multiply the family now because they wont be able to reproduce if certain persons have their way.

Last I heard the US is in negative population growth. Is this still true?

Nope, not true at all. The US has a positive, albiet slow, population growth from both births and immigration.

BTW, I'm not too worried about loons like Obama's pseudoscience advisor. The SCOTUS has already said such things are unconstitutional.

Skinner v. Oklahoma.

180 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:46pm

And as for cap and trade... it's a job killer, an economy killer and it has jack shit to do with the environment. This is all about control over the lives of this nation's citizens.

181 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:54pm

re: #153 ArchangelMichael

That's the reason the 2nd Amendment exists in the first place. Even lefties can get a copy of the Federalist Papers and read them.

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

You can't use your personal gun to resist the enforcement of the law any more than a car thief can use his gun to resist laws against stealing.

The Second Amendment is a not a license to break the law. If you resist enforcement of the law by using a gun, you are a criminal, whether or not your gun is legally owned.

182 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:03:55pm

re: #174 yochanan

but maybe in the U.S.S.A.

Possibly.

183 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:04:44pm

re: #178 OldLineTexan

Nirther on the last thread.

Of course, Pat Boone.

184 VioletTiger  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:04:49pm

re: #175 Thanos

The most likely thing you will find: that most of your power is coal, and that your rep traded vote for huge pollution credits.

sigh
That's a good place to start. I don't even know if it's coal or not. We do have a nuk power plant in the state.

185 ointmentfly  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:01pm

re: #173 Charles

That is one reason I'm pointing it out.

He is trying to coax conservatives out of our circular firing squad formation.....

186 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:07pm

re: #181 zombie

If you meant legal options, you should have said so.

/The Founding Fathers were British traitors

187 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:27pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

Of course, Pat Boone.

Look lower, like 316 below Pat.

188 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:37pm

re: #181 zombie

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

Whoa. Okay. Settle down, y'all. Yes, I know I was the one who linked to this in the first place, but this guy's whacko views are never going to become law. Ain't gonna happen. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply troubling that he's got the ear of Obama, of course.

189 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:41pm

re: #181 zombie
I bet it's decades old from back in the club of Rome and Population Bomb days?

190 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:05:46pm

re: #185 ointmentfly

He is trying to coax conservatives out of our circular firing squad formation.....

That he helped form, apparently.

191 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:17pm

re: #179 Honorary Yooper

BTW, I'm not too worried about loons like Obama's pseudoscience advisor. The SCOTUS has already said such things are unconstitutional.

Skinner v. Oklahoma.

The left has their own definition of constitutionality.

192 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:20pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Whoa. Okay. Settle down, y'all. Yes, I know I was the one who linked to this in the first place, but this guy's whacko views are never going to become law. Ain't gonna happen. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply troubling that he's got the ear of Obama

193 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:22pm

I'll stop thinking of the 8 rat bastard GOP congress critters as treacherous as soon as Obama and the Democrats keep their campaign pledge to reach across the aisle. And I am not holding my breath waiting for that to happen.

194 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:34pm

re: #181 zombie

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

You can't use your personal gun to resist the enforcement of the law any more than a car thief can use his gun to resist laws against stealing.

The Second Amendment is a not a license to break the law. If you resist enforcement of the law by using a gun, you are a criminal, whether or not your gun is legally owned.

Wars have been fought over less.

195 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:37pm

re: #163 Eowyn2

I want to tell my kids "breed hard and fast kids" multiply the family now because they wont be able to reproduce if certain persons have their way.

Last I heard the US is in negative population growth. Is this still true?

I think the births-in-the-US are on the decline vis-a-vis the death rate, but if you incorporate immigration (mostly illegal), then overall the population is on the rise.

196 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:47pm

re: #181 zombie

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

You can't use your personal gun to resist the enforcement of the law any more than a car thief can use his gun to resist laws against stealing.

The Second Amendment is a not a license to break the law. If you resist enforcement of the law by using a gun, you are a criminal, whether or not your gun is legally owned.

I think the point is that if the government ever passed a law of that sort, the government itself would likely be viewed as unlawful.

197 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:06:59pm

re: #192 OldLineTexan

/my reply got eated

When you got that

198 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:07:06pm

re: #175 Thanos

The most likely thing you will find: that most of your power is coal, and that your rep traded vote for huge pollution credits.

Coal accounts for about 30% of electrical production in the US. Natural gas is about 20%, and nuclear is about 10%. The renewables the envirowackos like account for less than 5% when put together. Hydro is about 10%.

199 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:07:14pm
200 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:07:41pm

They called him a traitor because they assumed, without any proff, that he was lying about progress in Iraq to protect Bush.

201 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:02pm

re: #107 zombie

Astounding.

So, Obama's chief science advisor wrote this:

"Compulsory Abortion for American Women

The trio prescribed a rigidly enforced, government-imposed limit of two children per family. Holdren and the Ehrlichs maintained "there exists ample authority under which population growth could be regulated." Hiding behind the passive voice, they note, "it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society." (Emphasis added.) To underscore they mean business, they conclude, "If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" (pp. 837-838). Moreover, if the United States government refuses to take proper measures, they authorize the United Nations to take compelling force."

And here we are, dithering over somebody using playground insults.

It very much depends what the child's prospective value to society is. If the children figure, going on the parents' form, to be valuable warriors in the struggle for Truth, Justice, and electoral victory for the People's Population Control Party, then they are not a liability.

If the children figure, going on the parents' form, to be engineers, then perhaps they are a regrettable necessity.

If they figure, going on the parents' form, to be the sort who would attempt to run a business, then why worry about overpopulation? You wouldn't want them to be born in any case.

/channeling Science Advisor

202 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:07pm

re: #179 Honorary Yooper

Add an amendment.

203 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:14pm
204 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:32pm

re: #141 Honorary Yooper

I deny that the primary change atmospheric temperature is man made. I do not deny that man can change the temperature however. The first partial of the surface temperature in the equations of radiative transfer with respect to CO2, averaged over the normal cloud patterns is 0.00125 degrees C per ppm of CO2. The CO2 line is really opaque already. Adding more CO2 does not broaden it. It will push the height of the total opacity a slight bit higher in the atmosphere, that is all. Venus is an example of global warming. The high pressure of the atmosphere causes significant pressure broadening of the molecular absorption lines so that they are vastly broader than those of earth. A wide absorption line captures more energy. As a heavier gas in the atmosphere, CO2 tends to drop to the lower levels in the absence of vertical mixing. Thus even adding more CO2 does not change much. The troposphere and stratosphere tend to be fairly isolated unless you have something like a volcano punching through. Some extreme storms will also punch through. But by in large, what goes into the troposphere or stratosphere stays there a while. Bad news with the CFCs were that once they got elevated into the stratosphere they stayed there for a long time blowing apart ozone molecules. Anyway, the main driver for temperature is not CO2. It is elsewhere. We can change climates on the earth through our own action like overgrazing and creating increased areas of desert. That is real man made climate change in some parts of the world like Africa and Australia. But CO2 is not a problem. Its really astounding to see the press follow the ~60 year AMO cycle. That is a cycle where the temperatures increase for ~30 years and then decrease for ~30 years. For the past 2 AMO cycles, we have had hysteria in the press at the turning points of the cycle. early 1900s, 1930s, 1970, 2000.

205 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:33pm

re: #200 Ben Hur

They called him a traitor because they assumed, without any proff, that he was lying about progress in Iraq to protect Bush.

shorter and more efficient.

/

206 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:08:55pm

re: #181 zombie

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

If the government fears the reaction of the citizens, it makes it harder for them to actually implement those sorts of policies.

207 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:09:00pm

bat-outta-hell fly-thu post:

Tapscott's point is dead-bang on target.

bbl

208 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:09:06pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Whoa. Okay. Settle down, y'all. Yes, I know I was the one who linked to this in the first place, but this guy's whacko views are never going to become law. Ain't gonna happen. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply troubling that he's got the ear of Obama, of course.

Imagine if it were a Republican President that had an advisor this far out. The media would trample itself getting the story out.

209 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:09:13pm

re: #202 Eowyn2

Add an amendment.

I doubt such an amendment would pass with 3/4ths of the states approving it. Even 3/4ths of Congress would be tough enough.

210 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:09:23pm

re: #203 buzzsawmonkey

Look what happened when the Spanish cut off Jenkins' ear.

Let's not van gogh off on some tangent about severed ears, okay?

211 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:09:28pm
Could somebody please explain the difference between people on the Right calling the eight GOP congressmen who voted for the Obama-Waxman-Markey cap-and-trade anti-global warming energy bill “cap and traitors” and the far lefties at Moveon.org calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”?

I'd be happy to. Gen. David Petraeus was just doing the job the President hired him to do. He neither compromised on his own perceived principles or did anything other than what he was asked to do by the President and Congress. The only reason moveon used Betrayus in the ad was because they wanted to smear him and it rhymed with his last name.

The eight GOP congressmen voted in a way that is perceived as opposite to what their own constituency and the party as a whole wanted. Therefore they betrayed those groups. Cap and Traitors is a clever rhyme that describes the situation fairly well.

It is inflammatory? Yeah.
Overly critical? Maybe.
Effective? Probably.

212 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:10:09pm
213 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:10:16pm

re: #165 Thanos

Wow. Like that would ever happen.

That's why I said "enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America."

I agree that it's highly unlikely to happen, just responding to Kragar's statement that anyone forcing his daughters to have an abortion would have "hell to pay." But Obama's Science Advisor wrote in no uncertain terms that he would be very much OK with implementing forced abortions if some bureaucrat -- say, for example, the White House Science Advisor -- determined that there was overpopulation.

214 turn  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:10:23pm

re: #180 Wendya

And as for cap and trade... it's a job killer, an economy killer and it has jack shit to do with the environment. This is all about control over the lives of this nation's citizens.

and a redistribution of wealth. I was off reading that link OR posted, some really frightening stuff. O's science adviser said this about cap and trade only two years ago : it is "A means for transferring some of the revenue produced by carbon taxes upon, or permits purchased by, countries and consumers with high incomes and high per capita emissions to countries and consumers with low incomes and low per capita emissions". This is o's plan, spread America's wealth.

215 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:10:57pm

re: #204 Shr_Nfr

I deny that the primary change atmospheric temperature is man made. I do not deny that man can change the temperature however.........

Hell....I change the temperature all the time.
I just go over to my thermostat and adjust the dial....
/

216 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:06pm

re: #163 Eowyn2

I want to tell my kids "breed hard and fast kids" multiply the family now because they wont be able to reproduce if certain persons have their way.

Last I heard the US is in negative population growth. Is this still true?

Yes, and so are all of the Western European countries, plus Egypt, Brazil, and about half the developed countries in Asia, notably Japan. The break-even point is the proverbial 2.3 children per couple. At or above that "replacement" point, new births just about replace deaths, the population remains fundamentally stable, and (more importantly from the government's POV) so does the economic and tax base. When the birth rate drops below 2.3, you move into the "negative growth" range, with a steadily-shrinking work force (ie., pool of taxpayers). The worst situation is a 1.6 or under rate, which results in a "top-heavy" population, in which young wage earners are outnumbered by retirees, and government benefit budgets have to be supported on a shrinking tax base.

The usual response to same is, of course, to raise taxes. Trouble is, this cuts the birth rate even more (people have less money to feed their families= smaller families), and thus there are even fewer taxpayers in the next generation. The Western Roman Empire collapsed financially due to this phenomenon in the 3rd through 6th Centuries AD, as after the split with the Eastern Roman Empire it tried to support the vast Imperial bureaucracy and legion establishment on half its original tax base.

Whether trying to fund a large number of pensions, or a bloated bureaucracy, when the birthrate drops below 2.3/couple, the polity in question is in big trouble, not too far down the road.

(Material sources; Connections by James Burke, Wired Magazine)

cheers

eon

217 Adrenalyn  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:29pm

I don't see any correlation between forced abortions and some school official forcing a 12 year old girl to strip while he searches for a Tylenol

218 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:38pm

Interesting article on the North Korean missile program, and its connections with the Iranian one.
The Taepodong and the Shabab are basically the same missile. Iran gets theirs to work better; I guess that's what happens when you aren't starving your work force.
And Khan is tied in with all this.

I think the North Korean bomb that worked was based on a Khan design, and if that is the case, they might have a design that does fit on a missile.
I doubt the "test" this weekend will involve a bomb, though; Kim wouldn't want to waste a bomb on a missile that hasn't been completely successful.
But that's coming.

219 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:40pm

re: #142 Eowyn2

I am against lunatics. That does not mean that I don't put up solar panels for other reasons. Actually it does, I am against lunatics in the ME and this isolates me from them. You get little popping heads when I say that AGW is a fraud, but I have a large solar panel setup, a full electrical (not hybrid) car, and I burn wood pellets for heat in winter. Somehow their small minds cannot handle it.

I want off the grid, and isolated from ME energy. I see no reason to hand money over to people that want to kill me.

220 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:49pm

re: #146 Iron Fist

Wow. They are so pro-choice that they are willing to put a gun to your head and make you make the right choice. I think we can call them pro-abortion now. They'll never be able to get this through, though. There would be absolute hell to pay. And if the UN stepped in to do it there would be war. It'd make Iraq look like a Sunday-school picnic.

Most pro-choice Americans would be just as outraged over this suggestion as you are. This one is. When I say "choice," I mean "choice." Not coercion. I'm just hoping that article is somehow Front Page hyperbole because the thought of anyone espousing those ideas being appointed to any position in my government's administration makes me nauseous.

221 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:11:51pm

re: #212 buzzsawmonkey

I just thought I'd lobe that into the discussion.

I promise to guard against further ear puns. Eustachian me right at the front gate, and I'll keep watch.

222 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:04pm

re: #107 zombie

Astounding.

So, Obama's chief science advisor wrote this:

"Compulsory Abortion for American Women

The trio prescribed a rigidly enforced, government-imposed limit of two children per family. Holdren and the Ehrlichs maintained "there exists ample authority under which population growth could be regulated." Hiding behind the passive voice, they note, "it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society." (Emphasis added.) To underscore they mean business, they conclude, "If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" (pp. 837-838). Moreover, if the United States government refuses to take proper measures, they authorize the United Nations to take compelling force."

And here we are, dithering over somebody using playground insults.

Where's Salamantis when you need him?

223 ~Fianna  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:10pm

re: #170 ArchangelMichael

congris can no tke ur gunz kplzthxbai

TL;DR

/do I need to?

224 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:21pm

re: #198 Honorary Yooper

Coal accounts for about 30% of electrical production in the US. Natural gas is about 20%, and nuclear is about 10%. The renewables the envirowackos like account for less than 5% when put together. Hydro is about 10%.

Well there are different ways to slice the pie. If looked at in terms of generated electric power then Nuclear Energy represents 20 pct, coal almost half of US electric generation. The figures you are quoting calc in the gas, diesel, etc. burned for transport.

Image: File:Sources_of_electricity_in_the_USA_2006.png

225 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:34pm

re: #207 pre-Boomer Marine brat

bat-outta-hell fly-thu post:

Tapscott's point is dead-bang on target.

bbl

Watch out for the falcon!

226 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:41pm

re: #162 Thanos

What's most interesting is that Tapscott was CPAC journalist of the year, and has been one of the folks who's been running around with red hot "RINO" branding irons. The fact that he thinks it's over the top speaks for itself, and maybe represents a change. Maybe that's why Charles is highlighting this, I don't know.

re: #173 Charles

That is one reason I'm pointing it out.

I wrote off all pundits long ago, so it's hard for me to get incensed when some of them say something stupid. I work under the assumption that they almost all say something stupid every single day -- left and right.

227 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:12:55pm
228 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:13:08pm

re: #198 Honorary Yooper

Coal accounts for about 30% of electrical production in the US. Natural gas is about 20%, and nuclear is about 10%. The renewables the envirowackos like account for less than 5% when put together. Hydro is about 10%.

What's the rest, then? This adds up to 75%
A show on trains said that 60% of the electricity in the US is made by coal.
Maybe not the best source, though.

229 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:13:44pm

re: #218 Kosh's Shadow

The Norks are the "head shop" for all the WMD junkies from Iran to Syria to whomever.

230 turn  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:14:21pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Whoa. Okay. Settle down, y'all. Yes, I know I was the one who linked to this in the first place, but this guy's whacko views are never going to become law. Ain't gonna happen. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply troubling that he's got the ear of Obama, of course.

That's a big ear, literally and figuratively, and this is exactly what I found most troubling about that article.

231 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:14:36pm

re: #221 Occasional Reader

You should have done an ear drum roll before you did that pun.

232 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:14:50pm

re: #181 zombie

The Second Amendment will serve no purpose in this situation: Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

You can't use your personal gun to resist the enforcement of the law any more than a car thief can use his gun to resist laws against stealing.

The Second Amendment is a not a license to break the law. If you resist enforcement of the law by using a gun, you are a criminal, whether or not your gun is legally owned.

Of course not, but this specific law would clearly be wrong, unconstitutional, I daresay evil (I'm an agnostic so I don't throw that around lightly) and the exact type of overreach and abuse of power that the founders had in mind when trying to limit government and keep the body politic armed. Such a law being passed, is righteous cause for civil disobedience or insurrection. If you "go along with it" as far as I'm concerned you are no better than Germans that lived next to Concentration Camps and pretended they knew nothing.

If things got to this point, I would either leave the country or I'd be listed as a "rebel" if I didn't. There's no 2 ways about this. I relish the thought of neither. I have no desire to "play Army" against Nazi-like government forces.

If the concept of limited government and the 2nd Amendment had any respect at all, such a law would never even be considered except for in some spooky dystopian sci-fi flick.

233 Mad Al-Jaffee  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:15:40pm

re: #218 Kosh's Shadow


Khaaaaaaan!

(someone had to post it)

234 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:16:01pm

re: #227 buzzsawmonkey

Sure ruminating on that wax thing aren't you.

235 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:16:42pm
236 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:17:03pm

re: #213 zombie

That's why I said "enforcing U.S. law in some putative Holdren's America."

I agree that it's highly unlikely to happen, just responding to Kragar's statement that anyone forcing his daughters to have an abortion would have "hell to pay." But Obama's Science Advisor wrote in no uncertain terms that he would be very much OK with implementing forced abortions if some bureaucrat -- say, for example, the White House Science Advisor -- determined that there was overpopulation.

My comments on what should be done in the event such a scenario will remain my own as they are decidely unpleasant.

237 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:17:38pm

re: #211 NukeAtomrod

I'd be happy to. Gen. David Petraeus was just doing the job the President hired him to do. He neither compromised on his own perceived principles or did anything other than what he was asked to do by the President and Congress. The only reason moveon used Betrayus in the ad was because they wanted to smear him and it rhymed with his last name.

The eight GOP congressmen voted in a way that is perceived as opposite to what their own constituency and the party as a whole wanted. Therefore they betrayed those groups. Cap and Traitors is a clever rhyme that describes the situation fairly well.

It is inflammatory? Yeah.
Overly critical? Maybe.
Effective? Probably.

I think the term is fine. Hell, I am fed up with the left dictating what our language should or shouldn't be. We have freedom of speech. If a journalist or politician or the man in the street wants to use the word "traitor" then it's fine.

If they use the word for simply effect, or actually attach all that the word can conjure, then good, the court of public opinion will decide if the usage was clever or over the top.

The left has spent to much time proving what Orwell said over 50 years ago about controlling language and controlling media. The left has handed us all these pretty catch-phrases which are designed to minimize the effects of our vibrant language and to try to get us to lock-step speak as some sort of one-minded drone.

Nope, not for me, traitor is fine, it has more than one level of meaning, it gets the point across in one simple thought and if it rattle anyones cages, then it proof in the usage itself that it's proper.

They were traitors to their party. Slam.

238 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:08pm

re: #232 ArchangelMichael

Excellent post.

239 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:11pm

re: #221 Occasional Reader

I promise to guard against further ear puns. Eustachian me right at the front gate, and I'll keep watch.

Steady.....steady everyone. Don't letympanic.

240 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:27pm

re: #231 Shr_Nfr

You should have done an ear drum roll before you did that pun.

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

Well, after all--this thread did start with Waxman's bill.


The mention of his name makes me want to let out a piercing scream.

241 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:27pm

re: #219 Shr_Nfr

I use as little energy as possible. My energy use, except for my car, comes from local sources. Hydroelectric, coal, natural gas. I believe in cleaning up my campsite, disposing of things properly, etc etc. I don't believe that just because someone calls herself 'butterfly' and lives in a tree without running water she is protecting the planet more than I am and that I should have to pay for being alive. Regarding my car. I live in a rocky mountain state. You just can't get an electric car up and over an 8000 foot pass. People have tried it here.

242 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:47pm

re: #236 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

My comments on what should be done in the event such a scenario will remain my own as they are decidely unpleasant.

I think I skirted that unpleasantness enough to get the point across.

243 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:18:59pm

re: #188 Occasional Reader

Whoa. Okay. Settle down, y'all. Yes, I know I was the one who linked to this in the first place, but this guy's whacko views are never going to become law. Ain't gonna happen. That doesn't mean it isn't deeply troubling that he's got the ear of Obama, of course.

His whacko views aren't going to become law?

But isn't that the topic of this thread -- that his whacko views on cap-&-trade just did become law?

If you had described this whole AGW and cap-&-trade thing to someone a few decades ago, they would have laughed at you if you suggested that one day it would all come true and that the US would purposely cripple its own economy in this fashion. However unlikley it may have seemed, it came true. And yet a few deades ago was when Holdren wrote those words about compulsory abortions. It may seem unimaginable today that his fantasies could ever come true, but other fantasies of his have in fact come true, so anything's possible.

I agree that it is extremely unlikely, but it is not impossible.

244 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:19:56pm

You have a socialist President.
Your country is being stolen from you right under your noses.
We're looking at global "carbon taxes" becoming a reality.
But, someone called some Republicans traitors! The outrage!
oh well, so, uh, huh? mmmmmmmmmmmmm, donuts......

/blinded by the threat of the rabid right..........

245 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:20:03pm

re: #9 lawhawk

Those who are attacking Tapscott for trying to maintain civility in the political discourse aren't going to stop there even with his argument to authority (Ronald Reagan - apparently the last one that the right wing considers their own). That will hardly be sufficient, but the fact is that cap and trade is a disastrous policy that wont do what its proponents claim and will significantly increase costs, creating a drag on the economy when it can least afford it.

You can argue the politics without making it personal. Some people just wont.

If you just had to reduce CO2 emissions, it would be far less damaging to the economy and to the general level of honesty in society to have a plain old tax on fossil fuels, indexed to their carbon content.

You'd have to tax imports based on the implicit fossil fuel content of the import, naturally. It wouldn't do to ban burning coal in the U.S. to fire generators, but permit generators just across the border in Canada or Mexico to export electricity, untaxed. That would merely serve to hollow out our industry while wasting electricity (and coal) because of longer transmission distances. The same would go for any commodity that had large implicit fossil fuel content.

But now, what if the exporting nation levies its own tax on fossil fuels? You'd have to call off your double taxation. But what if they don't really collect the tax, but just put it on the books to get around our own rules? And on and on. No matter how you work it, it's a bonanza for lawyers.

The root difficulty is that it is ultimately politically and technically impossible to sharply cut CO2 emissions by mere thrift.

Wouldn't it be better to concentrate on developing wind, solar, and nuclear power, and to sweep away the current rat's nest of regulatory difficulties? Take a nuclear design, say one from France with a long track record, and make the rules so that plants of that design are automatically cleared for immediate construction. Eminent domain, national security, etc.

Same for solar power plants, transmission lines, and so forth. If Life On Earth is imperiled, perhaps the endless round of Luddite obstructions to every real effort at alternative energy will have to be overridden.

246 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:20:03pm

re: #232 ArchangelMichael

Don't be so sure. There were some eugenics cases of forced sterilization in which it was ruled constitutional. Specifically [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

247 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #235 buzzsawmonkey

Well Markey my words, it will not turn out well.

248 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:20:40pm

re: #189 Thanos

I bet it's decades old from back in the club of Rome and Population Bomb days?

And 20 years from now, people will look back ask, "I bet it's decades old from back in the Anthropogenic Global Warming days?"

249 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:21:51pm

re: #248 zombie

And 20 years from now, people will look back ask, "I bet it's decades old from back in the Anthropogenic Global Warming days?"

We can only hope.

250 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:22:08pm

re: #243 zombie

But isn't that the topic of this thread -- that his whacko views on cap-&-trade just did become law?

Not yet. It has to run through the Senate first. I sincerely hope that it dies there.

251 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:22:11pm

re: #243 zombie

But isn't that the topic of this thread -- that his whacko views on cap-&-trade just did become law?

That particular whacko view has quite a lot of consensus. (Cold comfort, I know.) But forced abortions? Show me the political consensus for that.

252 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:04pm

re: #251 Occasional Reader

That particular whacko view has quite a lot of consensus. (Cold comfort, I know.) But forced abortions? Show me the political consensus for that.

excuse me while i go write my senators.

253 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:09pm

re: #243 zombie

It may seem unimaginable today that his fantasies could ever come true, but other fantasies of his have in fact come true, so anything's possible.

I agree that it is extremely unlikely, but it is not impossible.

This is why many of us are interested in politics in the first place; to keep the politicians from doing crazy stuff. So let's stay involved and prevent that.

On the same note, an hour ago I became a Registrar of Voters for the State of New Mexico.

254 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:10pm
255 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:17pm

re: #251 Occasional Reader

That particular whacko view has quite a lot of consensus. (Cold comfort, I know.) But forced abortions? Show me the political consensus for that.

china

256 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:23pm
257 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:46pm

re: #248 zombie

And 20 years from now, people will look back ask, "I bet it's decades old from back in the Anthropogenic Global Warming days?"

Dems can't lose on AGW.. When It cools down as the climate will do they can claim victory and then they can go to work on Global cooling...

258 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:23:52pm

re: #228 Kosh's Shadow

What's the rest, then? This adds up to 75%
A show on trains said that 60% of the electricity in the US is made by coal.
Maybe not the best source, though.

Thanos at #224 has the graph, and it shows approx 50% coal, 20% nuke, and 20% natural gas for 90%. Hydro is approx 7%, and only 2.5% are the renewables the environuts like.

We should increase the nuclear amount if we are really serious about carbon.

259 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:24:22pm

re: #255 Eowyn2

china

We ain't China.

260 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:25:12pm

I don't think Charles is going to have much luck getting Malkin to take down her Wanted! poster with pictures of the "traitors" on it. She's done a triple-gainer into the deep end of the crazy pool.

261 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:26:13pm

re: #245 lostlakehiker

Fine, you can develop them. This is being typed on a computer that is being powered by my solar panels. No problem. But the problem becomes dishonest compulsion under the guise of bad science. The correlation between CO2 and temperature since 2000 has been -0.14 with an r-squared of 0.02. Nothing against alternative power sources, nukes included. Have them make sense though for honest reasons. Or let people like me who can afford to shell the bucks out for them do it as a hobby and or slightly subsidize them since a case can be made that it reduces our reliance on imported foreign products. But do not hand me a steaming pile of crap about CO2 and AGW spewed forth by a divinity school dropout and a bad film-maker and the re-enforced by somebody who has a dog in the fight economically.

262 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:26:21pm

re: #260 SixDegrees

I don't think Charles is going to have much luck getting Malkin to take down her Wanted! poster with pictures of the "traitors" on it. She's done a triple-gainer into the deep end of the crazy pool.

She ain't crazy and plenty of us think of them as traitors.

263 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:26:55pm

re: #255 Eowyn2

china

Since when did we get to China?

264 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:27:27pm

re: #258 Honorary Yooper

Thanos at #224 has the graph, and it shows approx 50% coal, 20% nuke, and 20% natural gas for 90%. Hydro is approx 7%, and only 2.5% are the renewables the environuts like.

We should increase the nuclear amount if we are really serious about carbon.

We should increase the amount of nuclear power anyway.
And now, it looks like we could get uranium from the Moon.

265 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:27:40pm

re: #254 buzzsawmonkey

Fully aware that I may get my head chopped for asking this, let us presume that it is proposed that someone on public assistance who has had a child while on public assistance be ordered to accept Norplant, or some other reversible birth control, for the remainder of time that they are on public assistance, so as not to add to the number of people on the welfare rolls.

That is not forced abortion, but it is interfering with reproductive freedom--yet there is also the issue of someone abusing public support.

Having been on public assistance (by necessity) and Norplant (by choice) I have to say that I am against forcing women to be on Norplant or the neuvo ring or whatever. They affect women differently and I, for one, would rather be celibate than ever be on norplant again. I would say: find a temporary way to prevent MEN from being fertile:)

The welfare system is so broken that nobody even knows where to begin to fix it so they just pour more money into it. Kinda like a leaking rear main seal.

Where does that fit into this discussion on forced abortion?

266 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:28:22pm

re: #259 Occasional Reader

We ain't China.

Neither was Han China 100 years ago.

267 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:28:24pm

re: #258 Honorary Yooper

Thanos at #224 has the graph, and it shows approx 50% coal, 20% nuke, and 20% natural gas for 90%. Hydro is approx 7%, and only 2.5% are the renewables the environuts like.

We should increase the nuclear amount if we are really serious about carbon.

I think we should go 70% nuke and convert the whole coal industry to coal gassification (or something to that effect). That combined with more electric cars and more of drill here/now should make get us completely out of dependency on non-NAFTA countries for oil.

268 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:29:09pm

re: #220 Lynn B.

Most pro-choice Americans would be just as outraged over this suggestion as you are. This one is. When I say "choice," I mean "choice." Not coercion. I'm just hoping that article is somehow Front Page hyperbole because the thought of anyone espousing those ideas being appointed to any position in my government's administration makes me nauseous.

Not hyperbole. I've seen the book.

Get ready to be very nauseous for the next 8 years.

So much mind-rending outrageousness has been happening with the Obama Administration over the last six months that most people cannot grasp or cope with it. A thousand things have happened, any one of which would have sufficed to have been a major scandal under normal circumstances.

269 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:29:26pm

re: #264 Kosh's Shadow

We should increase the amount of nuclear power anyway.
And now, it looks like we could get uranium from the Moon.

This just in: Iraq building spacecraft to explore moon for peaceful purposes.

270 Dreader1962  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:29:33pm

This is Politics 101 in recent times. What I see are people who watch news programs, listen to radio shows, and frequent websites that ONLY reflect their opinion and then convince each other through the echo chamber that the majority view is not being represented. Like it or not, the vast majority of people in this country react more to the tone of a person than the actual issues being discussed or the 'facts' presented. This majority is likely to reject either side solely upon first impressions.

I've always thought that a better approach is to review what is being proposed and then talk through a either a current example or a projected scenario, covering exactly where the pitfalls and weaknesses of the other side are. For example, with the AGW crowd I emphasize that I am in favor of reducing pollution and exploring energy alternatives and point out that I don't have to adopt the idea that the planet is coming to an end to agree on steps that can be taken.

271 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:29:44pm

re: #264 Kosh's Shadow

We should increase the amount of nuclear power anyway.
And now, it looks like we could get uranium from the Moon.

I've got myranium.......the moon has uranium.
/

272 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:05pm

re: #253 wrenchwench

On the same note, an hour ago I became a Registrar of Voters for the State of New Mexico.

Be sure to keep the illegal aliens out of the voting booth... especially the ones from Roswell!

273 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:08pm

re: #269 KenJen

This just in: Iraq building spacecraft to explore moon for peaceful purposes.

I ment Iran. Time to go home and have a beer.

274 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:46pm

re: #267 ArchangelMichael

I think we should go 70% nuke and convert the whole coal industry to coal gassification (or something to that effect). That combined with more electric cars and more of drill here/now should make get us completely out of dependency on non-NAFTA countries for oil.

A very good idea, and easily attainable. Coal gassification could then be used as stop-gap until we can produce better batteries for cars and improve the electrical grid.

275 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:56pm

re: #273 KenJen

I ment Iran. Time to go home and have a beer.

I meant meant. bye bye.

276 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:57pm

re: #256 Iron Fist

It was the ramblings of a kook in the pre-Malthus-debunked days as far as I know, but there are still morons who think that way so we need constant vigilance.

277 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:30:57pm

re: #268 zombie

Not hyperbole. I've seen the book.

Get ready to be very nauseous for the next 8 years.

So much mind-rending outrageousness has been happening with the Obama Administration over the last six months that most people cannot grasp or cope with it. A thousand things have happened, any one of which would have sufficed to have been a major scandal under normal circumstances.

And Minnesota just did their little part to help him more......
///

278 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:31:03pm

re: #266 Eowyn2

Neither was Han China 100 years ago.

Well... [shrug] okay, and we could, in theory, become Nazi Germany, or Khmer Rouge Cambodia, I suppose. In theory. But I'm not losing any sleep over it, not just yet.

279 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:31:11pm

re: #258 Honorary Yooper

Thanos at #224 has the graph, and it shows approx 50% coal, 20% nuke, and 20% natural gas for 90%. Hydro is approx 7%, and only 2.5% are the renewables the environuts like.

We should increase the nuclear amount if we are really serious about carbon.

The lack of support for nuclear power proves the Dems aren't serious about AGW.

Nuclear waste - which we have the technology to safely control - is a small problem compared to a certain global catastrophe. There's no excuse for not supporting nuclear.

280 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:31:13pm

re: #269 KenJen

This just in: Iraq Iran building spacecraft to explore moon for peaceful purposes.

FIFY

281 Eowyn2  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:31:16pm

time to work

282 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:31:25pm

re: #265 Eowyn2

The Buck Supreme court case could be cited as a precedent for compulsion in birth control. I doubt that it would fly these days though.

283 KenJen  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:32:19pm

re: #280 Honorary Yooper

FIFY

Thanks. It's been a long day.

284 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:32:21pm
285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:32:21pm

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

286 ~Fianna  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:32:29pm

re: #219 Shr_Nfr

I am against lunatics. That does not mean that I don't put up solar panels for other reasons. Actually it does, I am against lunatics in the ME and this isolates me from them. You get little popping heads when I say that AGW is a fraud, but I have a large solar panel setup, a full electrical (not hybrid) car, and I burn wood pellets for heat in winter. Somehow their small minds cannot handle it.

I want off the grid, and isolated from ME energy. I see no reason to hand money over to people that want to kill me.

Excellent reasoning.

There're are so many issues that to tie energy policy exclusively to AGW is inane and making it more controversial than it needs to be.

Here are a few other considerations:

1. The grid is inherently insecure.
Like any other networked process, a minor disruption in the system can cause cascading failure. I would not suggest doing this, but every time I drive across the desert past the immense transmission lines that bring electric off the Hoover Dam north and west, it occurs to me that 3 guys, a 4x4 and some M80s from the reservation up the freeway could take out a significant power supply to the western half of the US and Canada. A major storm can shut down a region for weeks, and there's really no way to protect against either thing happening.

Power isn't something that's nice to have because we like lights and stereos. It's essential for business, industry and health. I run my company's servers. We're a very data-centric organization. Our servers go down for 2 days and we've lost a lot of money. We couldn't work at all since everything's db driven. Yes, we have backup power, but not long enough to last through a major disruption. Even Google or Microsoft probably only have enough power to run their data centers for a week. to compensate, of course, they also have the money for more dispersed failover.

"Green" energy is easier to deliver in a localized manner. Roof turbines, solar panels, etc. mean getting out from under the grip of monopoly utilities.

Add to this the cost of replacing the distributed infrastructure as it ages out of service. Like a lot of other US infrastructure, the grid is in need of a lot of work both due to age and due to demand it wasn't designed to carry.

2. The nuts in the ME would be much less of our problem if we didn't depend on their oil. They want the West to leave them alone. Fine, let's go and take our money with us.

3. Pollution does cost money. Asthma, cancer and other respiratory diseases can be traced through sound science to poor air quality. All of those have an actual financial cost in terms of treatment and lost productivity, as well as a huge social cost and opportunity cost for the people who suffer them. Asthma, particularly, is statistically significantly higher in urban areas with poor air quality. Moving some portion of our energy production to less polluting sources would save us money in this area.

4. Plastic comes from oil. Plastic has a lot of amazing uses for technology and health care. I'd rather use the oil we've got to make plastics than continue to dump it in to an internal combustion engine since we have other options for transport. Same goes with electricity. I'd rather power thousands of start-up and small businesses with inexpensive electric than dump it in a car.

5. Whether we've seen peak oil or not, it's a finite resource. We may not need to worry about it now, but we will sooner or later. The less we plan the more drastic the changes are going to be.

6. We're too innovative a country to not take the lead on doing this. This sort of problem is what the US historically has solved well. We need to get back in the lead before another country does and profits from it at our expense.

7. FWIW, I am concerned about AGW and lean towards accepting the research that it's happening, and dealing with energy issues is one way to ease our impact.

287 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:14pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

Better than yours? (So far, at least.)

Um... what's the rest of the story?

288 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:19pm

re: #220 Lynn B.

Most pro-choice Americans would be just as outraged over this suggestion as you are. This one is. When I say "choice," I mean "choice." Not coercion. I'm just hoping that article is somehow Front Page hyperbole because the thought of anyone espousing those ideas being appointed to any position in my government's administration makes me nauseous.

Sadly, I fear that too many Pro-Choice Americans would tow the line on this one, for the same reason they support partial-birth abortions. Any law against any type of abortion is seen as a threat to Row vs. Wade.

289 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:21pm

Sharpton is riding Michael's body like a surf-board, ain't he?

290 turn  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:23pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

Wow, some customers get that worked up over kitchen design?

291 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:35pm

re: #274 Honorary Yooper

A very good idea, and easily attainable. Coal gassification could then be used as stop-gap until we can produce better batteries for cars and improve the electrical grid.

And except for the ones who are crypto-commie neo-luddites, it should shut up the AGW hand-wringers since the largest cause of CO2 emissions in the country would be gone.

292 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:33:43pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

So, you design kitchens, what do you expect :)

293 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:34:13pm

re: #256 Iron Fist


There really is only so far you can go in oppressing an armed populace.

People tend to discount the impact of small arms against government oppression. They can't depend on the military to act against citizens, nor can they depend on local law enforcement officers who are not likely to wish to put their asses on the line against armed citizens.

294 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:34:20pm

re: #228 Kosh's Shadow

What's the rest, then? This adds up to 75%
A show on trains said that 60% of the electricity in the US is made by coal.
Maybe not the best source, though.

The other 25% is oil. that, BTW, is down from 1970, as is hydro and nuclear.

Oil-fired power plants accounted for 35% of U.S. electric generation in 1970, and nuclear and hydroelectric were about 12.5% and 15% respectively. Coal, which had been 80% in 1950, was seen as being on its way out, being superseded by "clean" nuclear and hydro, with the oil-fire plants being on call as a backup for emergencies. (I'm serious- U.S. Department of Defense Power Generation Security Program, 1969.)

Then the environmentalists weighed in.

Within a decade, Jimmy Carter had put a freeze on new nuclear plants that remains in force to this day. By the 1990s, Bill Clinton's Secretary of the Interior, Bruce Babbitt, was ordering hydro dams across the country dismantled at the behest of the Sierra Club, to "Make Rivers Wild Again". (Said program continued under Bush- G-d only knows why.) And just as no new oil refineries have been built in the U.S. since 1978, no new oil-fire power plants have been either, and as older plants have aged, they have been dismantled. All to please the enviros; never mind that, like the Red Queen, they are essentially impossible to placate.

The punch line is, that our need for electric power continued to increase, as our society went "high-tech". The consequences for the environment were horrific- as the only way to deal with the greater demands was to build coal-fire powerplants. even some other types of plants were converted- davis-Besse, here in OH, was begun as a nucvlear plant in 1974, but (after what amounted to threats of "we'll blow it up" from Greenpeace) it was completed as a 'clean coal" plant a decade later, courtesy of a Democratic governor and som serious arm-twisting by both the enviros- and the UMW.

This is the "alliance that dare not speak its name". The enviros may dream of a "pristine" world powered by Holy Wind and Sun, but so far they haven't been able to get it to work. (News flash; they won't, either. The laws of physics get in the way.) So, to power their toys, the only alternative is coal, which has to be mined, throws crap into the air (or, in a "clean coal" plant with washdown scrubbers like D-B, the nearest river), and also generates serious piles of "tailings" wherever mined. (Fun fact; a typical coal mine tailing pile generates more "released" radiation every year than a typical nuclear power plant, due to radon release from the rock waste. Just thought you should know.)

There's a reason we still build coal-fired power plants in this country, instead of nuclear or hydroelectric plants; three, really.

Called "politicians' timidity", "UMW cupidity".... and "environmentalist stupidity".

cheers

eon

295 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:35:13pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

Was he a meat eater? Maybe he thought you were prey.

///

Seriously, sorry to hear it. Glad you're okay.

296 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:35:52pm

re: #267 ArchangelMichael

I think we should go 70% nuke and convert the whole coal industry to coal gassification (or something to that effect). That combined with more electric cars and more of drill here/now should make get us completely out of dependency on non-NAFTA countries for oil.

There is also the possibility to en.wikipedia.org...]>liquify coal

297 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:35:55pm

re: #274 Honorary Yooper

Beware of "electrical grid improvements". I will be the first to say that the grid has been under maintained, but if you let the wrong loony tunes people in with the wrong "smart grid", you will get a fragile and complex grid that will break early and often. It will also be easily attacked by those who care to do so. Its not nice when your grid goes down and you are on life support. I have enough energy in by battery bank that I could probably go several days at a minimum usage level in winter. For most people up here in the NE, several days without power means burst pipes galore when its cold enough. Foolish of them not to have a generator backup with a provision to switch their heating system over to it, but that is what happens.

298 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:35:56pm

re: #256 Iron Fist

There really is only so far you can go in oppressing an armed populace. It is a long way, especially here in America, but forced abortion is well past that line. Frankly, I hope that the passage you quoted is a hoax.

People seem to be coping with this by going into denial and wishing it away as a "hoax."

I sense the opportunity for a zombietime post about this.

299 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:36:29pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

How was your day?

Sorry that happened. Glad you could post that.

300 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:36:34pm

re: #248 zombie

Probably

301 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:36:43pm

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

Therein you come to Buck 1927.

302 NukeAtomrod  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:36:45pm

re: #298 zombie

People seem to be coping with this by going into denial and wishing it away as a "hoax."

I sense the opportunity for a zombietime post about this.

Yes. Please.

303 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:37:04pm
304 scion9  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:37:19pm

re: #276 ArchangelMichael

It was the ramblings of a kook in the pre-Malthus-debunked days as far as I know, but there are still morons who think that way so we need constant vigilance.

I'm pretty sure Holdren still considers himself a Malthusian, or said something to that effect relatively recently. At least recently enough to be considered in the post-debunked days.

305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:37:36pm

re: #287 Occasional Reader

I design kitchens. This ignorant...paranoid...stupid (insert any other adjective here) customer made an appointment with me, without her husband being home... and proceded to check my I.D. (which I never mind) and stood for the first 50 minutes while I was in the home with her with a knife between me and her.

She said "You can't be too careful these days."

I said, "I know. M'aam, right now a total stranger is holding a knife on me."

306 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:37:38pm

re: #299 wrenchwench

Not a knife thing to happen to you any time.

307 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:37:48pm

re: #262 Nevergiveup

She ain't crazy and plenty of us think of them as traitors.

She's a loon, devoted to turning her corner of the blogosphere into the right-wing version of the Democratic Underground.

Or worse.

It's a shame, really. She used to be a fairly good columnist, but her turn to the Web has turned her into a shrieking lunatic who has entirely given up on analysis or thought of any kind, who now strains to meet her daily quota of hate by spinning the most ephemeral of news into the most vile transgressions possible through some bizarre hallucinatory process.

She's a massive detriment to Conservatism, although she seems far less interested in Conservatism these days and far more interested in whipping her dwindling acolytes into a rabid frenzy in hopes of generating more click-through revenue and in bilking yet another mindless investor into pouring money down the bottomless rathole she and a handful of others have managed to turn the once-promising PJM into.

How many times has she said "crap sandwich" this week? I lost count somewhere around the time I realized that this phrase represented her intellectual zenith, never to be exceeded.

308 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:10pm
309 irongrampa  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:11pm

So we're supposed to have reasoned discourse with the same people who spent 8 years vilifying the right?
And a mild by comparison criticism is to be avoided?

Not from this corner. Much more in the vein of Boehner is needed, shredding these idiots. I will unequivocally state I wish Obama to fail, to ensure that my country will survive. Further, it's my hope that the results of that failure will ensure that the radical left will wander in limbo for decades to come.
If that makes me a rabid right winger, then so be it.

310 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:18pm

re: #285 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Hi guys. A customer pulled a knife on me today.

I hope you were able to quickly produce your friend Mr. Remington, and recite that immortal Sean Connery line from The Untouchables.

311 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:29pm

re: #306 Shr_Nfr

Not a knife thing to happen to you any time.

Yeah. He coulda been forked, big time.

312 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:46pm

re: #296 callahan23

More than half my comment got eated.

Sulk.

313 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:38:59pm

re: #279 KingKenrod

The lack of support for nuclear power proves the Dems aren't serious about AGW.

Nuclear waste - which we have the technology to safely control - is a small problem compared to a certain global catastrophe. There's no excuse for not supporting nuclear.

Abundant cheap energy is a catastrophe.
If energy is scare we need some wise people to people to ensure its distributed equitably.
When it's abundant and cheap the wise people won't have work.

314 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:39:03pm
315 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:39:11pm

re: #299 wrenchwench

You and me both, wenchy-poo!

316 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:39:19pm
317 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:39:54pm

re: #304 scion9

Problem is that we are running up against some Maltusian limits in some places. Not in the US and even less so in eastern Europe, Russia and Japan where the population growth is negative. Primarily Africa, and some Muslim dominated countries.

318 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:39:56pm

re: #308 buzzsawmonkey

Brekkekekex, ho-ax, ho-ax

--Aristophanes

Do you need a Ricola? Sounds like you have Frogs in your throat.

319 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:40:00pm

re: #305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I design kitchens. This ignorant...paranoid...stupid (insert any other adjective here) customer made an appointment with me, without her husband being home... and proceded to check my I.D. (which I never mind) and stood for the first 50 minutes while I was in the home with her with a knife between me and her.

She said "You can't be too careful these days."

I said, "I know. M'aam, right now a total stranger is holding a knife on me."

I would have walked right out the door.

320 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:40:52pm

re: #309 irongrampa

I will unequivocally state I wish Obama to fail, to ensure that my country will survive. Further, it's my hope that the results of that failure will ensure that the radical left will wander in limbo for decades to come.
If that makes me a rabid right winger, then so be it.

I'm not a rabid right-winger, and I agree with you -- so I don't think those opinions classify you as "rabid" at all. More like: Sensible.

321 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:40:54pm

re: #107 zombie

Astounding.

So, Obama's chief science advisor wrote this:

"Compulsory Abortion for American Women

The trio prescribed a rigidly enforced, government-imposed limit of two children per family. Holdren and the Ehrlichs maintained "there exists ample authority under which population growth could be regulated." Hiding behind the passive voice, they note, "it has been concluded that compulsory population-control laws, even including laws requiring compulsory abortion, could be sustained under the existing constitution if the population crisis became sufficiently severe to endanger the society." (Emphasis added.) To underscore they mean business, they conclude, "If some individuals contribute to general social deterioration by overproducing children, and if the need is compelling, they can be required by law to exercise reproductive responsibility" (pp. 837-838). Moreover, if the United States government refuses to take proper measures, they authorize the United Nations to take compelling force."

And here we are, dithering over somebody using playground insults.

It should be pointed out, he did not write that. He was one of a trio of authors talking about a apocalyptic future of a grossly over crowded world. If you can find me a link that shows he wrote that opinion in the book, I'd love a link.
The guy that did write it was talking about society collapsing do to horrific over population and was trying to spin how horrible that could be. Regardless, I don't think Holden said or wrote that, but I'll await a link.

322 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:40:56pm

re: #294 eon

I believe work was started on a new nuclear power plant last week. I posted the link here but it has moved to the newspaper's archives by now.

And I like to tell people that the Three Mile Island accident did cause radiation release - from the coal burned to replace the power.

Have you seen the book The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear
Looks like it is still available. I had a hard time finding it 30 years ago.

323 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:41:11pm

re: #305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

and proceded to check my I.D. (which I never mind) and stood for the first 50 minutes while I was in the home with her with a knife between me and her.

That is truly certifiable behavior.

I'm surprised you stayed.

324 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:42:10pm

re: #296 callahan23

There is also the possibility to liquify coal

That's what I meant. I'm not sure if the terminology I used was correct but I meant converting coal to a gasoline equivalent for use in internal combustion engines, jet aircraft engines, and in the production of other petroleum based products such as lubricants and plastics (if coal can be used this way).

325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:42:17pm

re: #319 Wendya

I would have walked right out the door.

I was tempted to, but, I accepted a new challenge (wasn't going to sell her a damn thing)... wanted to see if I could get her guard down enough to put the knife away.

By the time I left, we were sitting on the porch swing together chatting.

Nice lady, mid-sixties... very lonely... and very lacking in "the social skills".

326 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:42:18pm

re: #319 Wendya

I would have walked right out the door.

re: #323 Occasional Reader

That is truly certifiable behavior.

I'm surprised you stayed.

You guys aren't in sales, are you.

327 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:43:11pm

re: #305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I design kitchens. This ignorant...paranoid...stupid (insert any other adjective here) customer made an appointment with me, without her husband being home... and proceded to check my I.D. (which I never mind) and stood for the first 50 minutes while I was in the home with her with a knife between me and her.

She said "You can't be too careful these days."

I said, "I know. M'aam, right now a total stranger is holding a knife on me."

I will a door to door bill collector in the middle 70's, before I got into programming. I was at a woman's house in texas once, she excused herself from the living room and came back in with a shot gun and said that if I didn't leave her house, there would be a dead honky splattered on her wall.

I turned around and told her that she's right, but I would make sure that I made as big a mess as I could when I splattered.

She started to laugh, that's when I left.

328 Ojoe  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:43:57pm

Carbon carbon
Bo barbon
Banana fana
Fo farbon
Me my mo marbon
Carbon!

329 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:44:03pm

re: #323 Occasional Reader

That is truly certifiable behavior.

I'm surprised you stayed.

Pointing a weapon at someone you invited into your home can end rather badly.

330 ExCamelJockey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:44:17pm

I'm guessing but I would bet that voters from the coal state of Kentucky are against this bill. What word would you apply to someone who votes with their party and ignores their constituents (like Yarmuth and Chandler)? I would think the word traitor would be appropriate.

331 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:44:23pm

re: #321 avanti

It should be pointed out, he did not write that. He was one of a trio of authors talking about a apocalyptic future of a grossly over crowded world. If you can find me a link that shows he wrote that opinion in the book, I'd love a link.
The guy that did write it was talking about society collapsing do to horrific over population and was trying to spin how horrible that could be. Regardless, I don't think Holden said or wrote that, but I'll await a link.


Um... he was a co-author of the book. You put your name on it, you're responsible for what's in it. If you think another of your co-authors has gone batshit crazy, you pull your name (or make that person quit).

By the way: Since his name is listed as an author of the book in which the quote appears, the burden of proof shifts to you to support your contention that he didn't write it. So: Link, please.

332 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:44:43pm

re: #325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Nice lady, mid-sixties... very lonely... and very lacking in "the social skills"

I bet she lives to be 100. With a very nice kitchen, I hope.

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:44:54pm

Okay, sorry... just had to tell that story.

So. Who are the traitors?

And how do we boycott all things Minnesota?

334 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:45:01pm

re: #325 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

By the time I left, we were sitting on the porch swing together chatting.

Excellent.

And what did you do with the body?

//

335 ConservativeAtheist  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:45:02pm

Cap and Trade is stupid, but it's not traitorous.

336 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:45:34pm

re: #314 buzzsawmonkey

Untying tubes and reversing vasectomies are reversible too in theory. They do not work well, but they can work. Castration and hysterectomy/oopherectomy is a different matter. If the state has the power to enforce a irreversible (as it was in 1927) sterilization, thereby stating that it has a compelling rather than rational state interest to do so, a compulsory birth control could be justified under the same rationale. I doubt it would fly these days and I hope it would not, but it has in the past.

337 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:45:45pm

re: #334 Occasional Reader

heh... septic tank... whaddya think!

338 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:45:51pm

Walks right in, sits right down.
"Barkeep, I am a thirsty Lizard."

339 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:46:05pm

re: #323 Occasional Reader

That is truly certifiable behavior.

I'm surprised you stayed.

As I've mentioned here once before, I had the opposite situation happen. A young guy who was here on business (delivering a storage crate) asked to use my phone, so I allowed it. He made a fake phone call, then asked me a couple of bizarre questions ("So...what do you do for fun?"), followed by, "'Cause, you know...I don't have to be anywhere for a while."

I marched directly out the front door and told him he was leaving. I felt lucky not to have been sexually assaulted...and even I wouldn't hold a knife on a guy coming to do a makeover on my kitchen.

340 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:46:22pm

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay, sorry... just had to tell that story.

So. Who are the traitors?

And how do we boycott all things Minnesota?

Stay away from Wild Rice and Walleye.

341 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:14pm

re: #327 Walter L. Newton

Now there's a nic....

Splattered Honky.

342 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:19pm

re: #309 irongrampa

So we're supposed to have reasoned discourse with the same people who spent 8 years vilifying the right?
And a mild by comparison criticism is to be avoided?

Not from this corner. Much more in the vein of Boehner is needed, shredding these idiots. I will unequivocally state I wish Obama to fail, to ensure that my country will survive. Further, it's my hope that the results of that failure will ensure that the radical left will wander in limbo for decades to come.
If that makes me a rabid right winger, then so be it.

You've got me standing side by side with you.

343 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:26pm

re: #338 DEZes

Walks right in, sits right down.
"Barkeep, I am a thirsty Lizard."

Grain alcohol and rainwater, coming right up.

344 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:28pm

re: #340 Truck Monkey

Stay away from Wild Rice and Walleye.

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Okay, sorry... just had to tell that story.

So. Who are the traitors?

And how do we boycott all things Minnesota?

Stay away from woman with husky voices.

345 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:46pm

re: #338 DEZes

Walks right in, sits right down.
"Barkeep, I am a thirsty Lizard."

You know lizards actually get their moisture from eating bugs.

Red ants or black today, sir?

346 zombie  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:47:59pm

re: #321 avanti

It should be pointed out, he did not write that. He was one of a trio of authors talking about a apocalyptic future of a grossly over crowded world. If you can find me a link that shows he wrote that opinion in the book, I'd love a link.
The guy that did write it was talking about society collapsing do to horrific over population and was trying to spin how horrible that could be. Regardless, I don't think Holden said or wrote that, but I'll await a link.

Dang -- Denial is strong today.

347 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:00pm

re: #341 JCM

Now there's a nic....

Splattered Honky.

Cracker spackle is appropriate also.

348 scion9  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:16pm

re: #331 Occasional Reader

Ecoscience cover image from Amazon.

349 Shr_Nfr  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:23pm

Coleman has just conceded. Its over in Mn.

350 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:50pm

re: #344 Walter L. Newton

Stay away from woman with husky voices.

That sounds like experience talking. ; )

351 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:54pm

re: #345 wrenchwench

You know lizards actually get their moisture from eating bugs.

Red ants or black today, sir?

I have evolved, black label Jack will be fine, of an ice cold beer.

352 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:48:57pm

re: #284 buzzsawmonkey

The problem is, if you have a promiscuous unmarried woman on public assistance, how are you going to apply your solution to whatever man/men she may be seeing?

Mind you, I'm not advocating anything. But since people are talking about compelled abortions, it seems only proper to raise a situation where compulsory birth control could be imposed with some measure of public support.

One solution is similar to what the military already does. You get married, you get a pay bump to help cover the added expenses of married life. You have a kid, you get another pay bump, to help cover those added expenses. You have another kid, you get another pay bump.

You have a third kid, and you're on your own. No more pay increases for pumping out babies after the first two.

People are not entirely stupid. If you make things expensive, people who can't afford them tend to avoid them. If you make things cost free, people tend to overuse them.

A system like this would have a necessary phase-in period so aid would continue to those already used to receiving handouts, with the caveat that, although they might be eligible for payments for the kids they already have which exceeded the maximum, they wouldn't receive additional payments for any more. You'd be paying for a dwindling number of grandfathered participants for a maximum of 18 years. And people would figure out that there's no advantage in getting pregnant in a real hurry once the details were announced.

I don't know who dreamed up the compulsory abortion scenario, but that's not gonna happen and isn't worth considering.

353 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:49:14pm

re: #324 ArchangelMichael

That's what I meant. I'm not sure if the terminology I used was correct but I meant converting coal to a gasoline equivalent for use in internal combustion engines, jet aircraft engines, and in the production of other petroleum based products such as lubricants and plastics (if coal can be used this way).

Of course there is the Bergius process that liquefies coal. Then there are the gasification processes like the Fischer–Tropsch process that produce gas. There is all manner of carbonaceous materials, such as coal, petroleum, biofuel, or biomass that could be either liquified or gasified.

354 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:49:27pm

re: #326 wrenchwench

You guys aren't in sales, are you.

Well, I have to sell myself and my business every day...

One element of our business involves firearms training and home defense. Our students are taught never to point a weapon at someone unless their lives are in imminent danger and they intend to use said weapon. If you point a weapon at me, I'm not going to sit around and guess if you're serious about using it.

355 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:49:27pm

re: #339 capitalist piglet

Yep, woman alone at home need to certainly be very careful about anything related to delivery men, cable guy, etc. We discussed various ways of doing it. But letting the guy in, then brandishing a weapon at him for an hour, isn't one of them. (For one thing, he could get you arrested, or sue you and win.)

356 Picayune  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:49:43pm

re: #123 Iron Fist

No useless AGW laws in Australia? If you have not already read this, then read: Could Australia Blow Apart the Great Global Warming Scare?

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

We need US Senators like Australian Senator Andrew Bolt who is leading the charge against the AGW "hoax" with author Ian Plimer's latest book, Heaven and Earth, Global Warming: The Missing Science

357 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:50:05pm

re: #350 Truck Monkey

That sounds like experience talking. ; )

Minnie-soda... where the men are men and the woman are men and the children are really confused.

358 Honorary Yooper  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:50:22pm

re: #317 Shr_Nfr

Problem is that we are running up against some Maltusian limits in some places. Not in the US and even less so in eastern Europe, Russia and Japan where the population growth is negative. Primarily Africa, and some Muslim dominated countries.

One could argue that Africa is under populated, not over populated, and the problems are caused more by politicans and stong men like Mugabe than the actual ability to grow food.

359 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:50:51pm
360 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:50:53pm

re: #348 scion9

Ecoscience cover image from Amazon.

Er... yes? And?

361 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:50:56pm

re: #354 Wendya

Well, I have to sell myself and my business every day...

One element of our business involves firearms training and home defense. Our students are taught never to point a weapon at someone unless their lives are in imminent danger and they intend to use said weapon. If you point a weapon at me, I'm not going to sit around and guess if you're serious about using it.

I should be your customer.

362 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:51:12pm

re: #355 Occasional Reader

Yep, woman alone at home need to certainly be very careful about anything related to delivery men, cable guy, etc. We discussed various ways of doing it. But letting the guy in, then brandishing a weapon at him for an hour, isn't one of them. (For one thing, he could get you arrested, or sue you and win.)

"Candy Gram".

363 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:51:42pm

re: #339 capitalist piglet

I marched directly out the front door and told him he was leaving. I felt lucky not to have been sexually assaulted...and even I wouldn't hold a knife on a guy coming to do a makeover on my kitchen.

You were fortunate. Anyone coming in my house or office will be greeted by me wearing a pistol in a holster, clearly visible. It cuts down on the bullshit.

364 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:51:44pm

re: #181 zombie

Obama's Science Advisor has written that he is in favor of changing the law to make compulsory abortions legal.

Links?

365 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:52:21pm

re: #351 DEZes

I have evolved, black label Jack will be fine, of an ice cold beer.

I'll give you an upding, and you'll like it.

Back to work.

366 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:52:26pm

re: #339 capitalist piglet

Yes, you were fortunate. But... the odds of getting assaulted by a guy who's entire company knows he's at your house (hence making him easily traceable) is left for the complete nut-job types.

Once the guy arrives at your house on time, in a car marked with the company you are expecting' logo, and proves with positive ID that he is in fact the person you asked for...

RELAX DAMMIT!

That's all.

367 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:52:53pm

re: #363 Wendya

You were fortunate. Anyone coming in my house or office will be greeted by me wearing a pistol in a holster, clearly visible. It cuts down on the bullshit.

I do that with my kids. You should see how well behaved they are!

368 cagney  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:53:12pm

[Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

"A knife-wielding burglar had a shock when he attacked a pensioner in his home - and discovered his victim was a retired boxer.

Senior citizen Frank Corti, 72, a former junior boxing champion is still a bit handy with his dukes.

And when he spotted the aforementioned intruder, Gregory McCalium, in his hallway he sprang into action and delivered two right hooks. The blows were so powerful that McCalium, who had just lunged at Mr Corti with the knife, was left looking like he had been in 'a car accident'.
...
.."

369 RedHouseBlueState  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:53:15pm

I didn't bother to read* the previous 300+ posts, so if this has already been brought up but, the 8 republicans are supposed to be on the republican side, while mOVEON.org and the honorable General were diametrically opposed.

It didn't matter what the Gen. said or did, the left's guns were trained on an American soldier performing his duty as commanded by congress. That's why it was so abhorrent. The 8 republicans aren't being hit by paid attack dogs who were already chomping at the bit. (At least I don't think so.)

That being said, I agree. The English language has been so twisted by politics, its getting hard to relay coherent thoughts. And this is a prime example. Do not do what the left did with "torture."

* After spending four hours reading company manuals on business conduct, ethical management (I'm not even a manager!), and other mundane issues, I'm already seeing triple.

370 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:54:06pm
371 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:54:30pm

Fucking Al Franken is a Senator!

372 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:54:37pm

I think the important point to note about this post is that no matter how much conservative cred you carry there are zealots in our party willing to instantly tar and feather you over any issue - they eat, breathe, and drink bile for sustenance. If enough people on the right harrass these R's enough over this, surprise surprise, the Dems will gain more seats.

They are coming after Tapscott on this every bit as virulently as they do Charles when he posts something they disagree with.

373 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:54:53pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey

I have had (and mentioned) the same problem today.

Our brave voices of dissent are being SILENCED.

374 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:55:06pm

re: #270 Dreader1962

This is Politics 101 in recent times. What I see are people who watch news programs, listen to radio shows, and frequent websites that ONLY reflect their opinion and then convince each other through the echo chamber that the majority view is not being represented. Like it or not, the vast majority of people in this country react more to the tone of a person than the actual issues being discussed or the 'facts' presented. This majority is likely to reject either side solely upon first impressions.

I've always thought that a better approach is to review what is being proposed and then talk through a either a current example or a projected scenario, covering exactly where the pitfalls and weaknesses of the other side are. For example, with the AGW crowd I emphasize that I am in favor of reducing pollution and exploring energy alternatives and point out that I don't have to adopt the idea that the planet is coming to an end to agree on steps that can be taken.

I really like your even-handed approach. My only quibble is your last sentence. I don't think AGW posits that the planet is coming to an end, just that human beings will be faced with a lot of troublesome sh*t including relocation.

I have deep respect for the planet, but I'm sufficiently selfish that I'm more concerned about my own butt, and the collective butts of millions or billions. Your thoughts?

375 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:55:21pm

AAAAk, top 10.

376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:55:40pm

re: #371 TheMatrix31

I want to down-ding that sooooooo bad....

377 formercorpsman  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:55:58pm

re: #219 Shr_Nfr

1000%

378 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:56:06pm

re: #362 Truck Monkey

"Candy Gram".

Land shark.

379 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:56:06pm

re: #366 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

But... the odds of getting assaulted by a guy who's entire company knows he's at your house (hence making him easily traceable) is left for the complete nut-job types.

I have to say, I've heard way too many stories from female friends about behavior from delivery guys, cable guys, movers (etc.) that made them feel highly uncomfortable.

380 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:56:31pm

re: #371 TheMatrix31

Fucking Al Franken is a Senator!

I was gonna say: "I have two words for ya: Senator Al Franken."

/channeling Joe Biden

381 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:56:55pm

re: #378 Kosh's Shadow

Land shark.

I'm a dolphin.

382 TheMatrix31  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:57:01pm

re: #376 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I want to down-ding that sooooooo bad....

If I could downding myself, I would.

F our L.

383 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:57:14pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey

..... [BTW, this is the third or fourth post today which has been cut off in the process of posting. I don't know if anyone else has had this problem today, but I figured it was worth mentioning.]

Happened to me also. See my: - re: #312 callahan23

384 A Man for all Seasons  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:57:40pm

re: #375 DEZes

AAAAk, top 10.

Have you got one those foam #1 fingers?
You need to put it on right now and take a victory lap...
Congrads

385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:58:19pm

re: #379 Occasional Reader

Uncomfortable is not assaulted. Some people are pre-disposed to being "uncomfortable" around strangers, period.

Sometimes I am sure it is absolutely justified, but more often than not, it is just paranoia.

386 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:58:51pm

re: #361 wrenchwench

I should be your customer.

You really ought to find a class. It's important that you feel secure in your home and your business and know that you can take care of yourself against the average thug. We teach people who are averse to firearms as well. There's lots of things you can use as a weapon.

387 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:59:25pm

re: #384 HoosierHoops

Have you got one those foam #1 fingers?
You need to put it on right now and take a victory lap...
Congrads

I have a dunce cap and a corner, ;)

388 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 2:59:31pm

re: #375 DEZes

AAAAk, top 10.

Wow. I am just below you in the top 10. How the hell did that happen? I don't post enough for people to even know who I am.

389 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:00:48pm

re: #388 Truck Monkey

Wow. I am just below you in the top 10. How the hell did that happen? I don't post enough for people to even know who I am.

we know ya. ;)

390 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:00:50pm

re: #375 DEZes

AAAAk, top 10.

Yeah, but I'm almost kind of owning the bottom 10 today.

/neener neener

391 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:10pm

re: #389 DEZes

we know ya. ;)

What's worse, we luvs ya!

392 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:18pm

re: #356 Picayune

No useless AGW laws in Australia? If you have not already read this, then read: Could Australia Blow Apart the Great Global Warming Scare?

[Link: www.realclearpolitics.com...]

We need US Senators like Australian Senator Andrew Bolt who is leading the charge against the AGW "hoax" with author Ian Plimer's latest book, Heaven and Earth, Global Warming: The Missing Science

That is a terrific link Picayune and I recommend everyone read it. I especially like this statement about Australians:

Fielding has issued a challenge to the Obama White House to rebut the data. It will be a novel experience for them, as Fielding is an engineer and has an Australian's disregard for self-important government officials.


That's what we used to be before we all became sheep. Sounds to me like Australiians are more American than we are.........
Hoorah for them.

393 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:19pm

re: #385 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Uncomfortable is not assaulted. Some people are pre-disposed to being "uncomfortable" around strangers, period.

Sometimes I am sure it is absolutely justified, but more often than not, it is just paranoia.

The stories I've heard have mostly come from smart, tough-minded, independent women. Remarks that were clearly over the line... "you're so pretty, don't you have a boyfriend? Do you want one?", stuff like that.

So, yes, of course, waving a knife at the guy once he walks in isn't the answer, but maybe having a friend there with you... or someone on the phone with you... and/or a folding knife in your pocket... not a bad idea, ladies.

394 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:30pm

re: #390 OldLineTexan

Yeah, but I'm almost kind of owning the bottom 10 today.

/neener neener

Waaaaa?

395 irongrampa  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:48pm

re: #390 OldLineTexan

Well, somebody's gotta pick up Avanti's slack.

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:01:49pm

re: #388 Truck Monkey

Wow. I am just below you in the top 10. How the hell did that happen? I don't post enough for people to even know who I am.

Who are you?

397 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:05pm

re: #358 Honorary Yooper

One could argue that Africa is under populated, not over populated, and the problems are caused more by politicans and stong men like Mugabe than the actual ability to grow food.

"Africa alone could feed the world"

DOOM-MONGERS have got it wrong - there is enough space in the world to produce the extra food needed to feed a growing population. And contrary to expectation, most of it can be grown in Africa, say two international reports published this week.
The first, projecting 10 years into the future from last year's food crisis, which saw the price of food soar, says that there is plenty of unused, fertile land available to grow more crops.
"Some 1.6 billion hectares could be added to the current 1.4 billion hectares of crop land [in the world], and over half of the additionally available land is found in Africa and Latin America," concludes the report, compiled by the Organization for Economic Cooperation and Development and the UN Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO).
If further evidence were needed, it comes in a second report, launched jointly by the FAO and the World Bank. It concludes that 400 million hectares, straddling 25 African countries, are suitable for farming.


From NewScientist.

398 Robert Schwartz  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:25pm

So,if it is wrong for opponents of cap & defraud to call supporters traitors, is it wrong for Paul Krugman to call opponents traitors to the planet?

399 Shug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:38pm

I prefer the term "soon to be unemployed former US rep" to traitor

they all need to be defeated in their upcoming elections, as does every democrat who voted for this bill

400 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:40pm

re: #390 OldLineTexan

Yeah, but I'm almost kind of owning the bottom 10 today.

/neener neener

2 outta 10, look out SJ.

401 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:40pm

re: #386 Wendya

You really ought to find a class. It's important that you feel secure in your home and your business and know that you can take care of yourself against the average thug. We teach people who are averse to firearms as well. There's lots of things you can use as a weapon.

I've got a pretty good mental inventory, I think, of makeshift (and not so makeshift) weapons in various parts of my home. (Of course, Mr. Mossberg and Mr. Kimber would be the first choices.)

402 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:02:41pm

re: #395 irongrampa

Well, somebody's gotta pick up Avanti's slack.

HA! That was cold, gramps, way cold.

/

Some posters don't like having their own rules foist on them.

403 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:03:27pm

re: #400 DEZes

2 outta 10, look out SJ.

me and teh jeebus, hangin' out, drinkin' a Bud.

/

404 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:03:38pm

re: #399 Shug

I prefer the term "soon to be unemployed former US rep" to traitor

they all need to be defeated in their upcoming elections, as does every democrat who voted for this bill

Where ya been shug?

405 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:03:39pm

i think the outrageous thing is not that we would call them traitors but that these 8 republicans would vote for this cape and tax bill and expect that we would call them anything but traitors.
the cap and tax bill claims to be abt. slowing global warming but in fact it is a huge oppressive tax hike that will vastly expand the power of the fed. gov't over the economy. 80 % of our energy comes from fossil fuels. o, himself said electricity prices will necessarily sky rocket. o is fine putting this burden on citizens. and any company or business using coal, oil or natural gas. the price increases will be passed on to us. it will mean everything will cost more.
and we should grin and bear it because it is for the polar bear. this argument used for the last 15 yrs. to deceive the public. these onerous taxes that would be put on american citizens will do nothing to curb global warming. it is a ploy to grab power. it is insidious enough that i would say 'traitor' is an appropriate name for the people who are pushing this bill.

406 Shug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:03:48pm

re: #14 Ben Hur

Waxman: GOP "Rooting Against Country" Because Of Energy Bill Vote

Betraying the Planet


Waxman's nose hair is a bigger threat to the earth than my SUV

407 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:12pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey

...and I don't recall whether or not government support was involved.

Whether or not there was government support would make a huge difference as to whether a reversible, temporary compulsory birth control could be imposed. These factors might make it possible for such a thing to be imposed without disturbing prior case law in any way.

[BTW, this is the third or fourth post today which has been cut off in the process of posting. I don't know if anyone else has had this problem today, but I figured it was worth mentioning.]

I can't answer ya cause the bottom of yer post was cut off.........
/ :

408 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:17pm

re: #322 Kosh's Shadow

I believe work was started on a new nuclear power plant last week. I posted the link here but it has moved to the newspaper's archives by now.

And I like to tell people that the Three Mile Island accident did cause radiation release - from the coal burned to replace the power.

Have you seen the book The Health Hazards of Not Going Nuclear
Looks like it is still available. I had a hard time finding it 30 years ago.

I've read it (years ago); in fact, the stat on radon release from mine tailings came from there. I've used quite a few facts from it in refuting anti-nuclear types over the years.

I would also recommend The Curve of Binding Energy; A Journey Into The Awesome and Alarming World of Theodore B. Taylor by John McPhee. Dr. Taylor, a veteran of the Manhattan Project, was the first to raise the possibility of a terrorist-built atomic bomb, and the book goes into his spadework in determining the exact threat level. He concluded that it was 'high", and that was in the early 1970s. The book also shows how the easy availability of fissionable material internationally makes nonsense of the frequent environmentalist argument that "nuclear power plants would be the only source of A-bomb-making materials for terrorists". Taylor showed that, even in the Seventies, getting plutonium or uranium on the international black market was no great trick, let alone less "popular" but just as useful materials as thorium. (Thorium has never been used as a fissile material in U.S. nuclear weapons due to its poor long-term storage characteristics; Taylor opined that most terrorists would not be worried about that, especially if they already had a target picked out. BTW, unlike plutonium, an artificial element, or uranium, a rare natural one, thorium is nearly as common as lead in the Earth's crust.)

Yes, Tom Clancy did refer to McPhee's book in writing The Sum of All Fears.

cheers

eon

409 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:24pm

re: #375 DEZes

AAAAk, top 10.

Unlimbers multiple sock puppets to go on down dinging spree!

/;-P

410 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:25pm

re: #390 OldLineTexan

Yeah, but I'm almost kind of owning the bottom 10 today.

/neener neener

Well, shoot... if you can make it into the bottom 10 with only one or two downdings, that goes to show that LGF is just becoming too damn nice. Time was, you couldn't breach Bottom Comments without a good half dozen net downdings. And that was on a slow day.

411 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:42pm

re: #397 callahan23

"Africa alone could feed the world"

Of course it could, if its various governments would get out of the way and adopt free-market capitalism and democratic government. But it's so much more fun to blame racism and colonialism.

412 Shug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:04:51pm

re: #404 DEZes

Where ya been shug?


sitting in the woods, on a lake house.
happily , cut off from the world for most of the time

and will be heading back tomorrow for 6 days....

highs in the 60's in N. Michigan

GLOBAL WARMING

413 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:05:00pm

re: #406 Shug

Waxman's nose hair is a bigger threat to the earth than my SUV

Waxman's nose hair is a fragile ecosystem full of magic pixies dancing in the furry meadows.

/

414 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:05:12pm

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Who are you?

I am DEZes!

415 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:05:34pm

re: #401 Occasional Reader

I've got a pretty good mental inventory, I think, of makeshift (and not so makeshift) weapons in various parts of my home. (Of course, Mr. Mossberg and Mr. Kimber would be the first choices.)

Damned near anything can be a weapon. That's why I think the UK's knife laws .... to the point of selling kitchen knives with no points...are so absurd.

416 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:05:36pm

re: #409 JCM

Unlimbers multiple sock puppets to go on down dinging spree!

/;-P

LOL, How did I make the botton 10 and top 10 with the same post, hmmmmm.
///

417 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:05:39pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

I feel like all the NBA champs in the years Jordan wasn't playing.

418 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:06pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

Well, shoot... if you can make it into the bottom 10 with only one or two downdings, that goes to show that LGF is just becoming too damn nice. Time was, you couldn't breach Bottom Comments without a good half dozen net downdings. And that was on a slow day.

No kidding.

419 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:10pm

re: #393 Occasional Reader

My sister is a case in point. Is on the hunt (reverse "Cougar style", if you will) for any reason to be offended, put off, and/or frightened.

Mom's Oncologist's partner (a real oncologist and everything [but with goatee, longer hair, and {gasp} jeans) came in... freaked my sister out beyond all rationality.

Said "The guy gave me the creeps!". My wife works with him, says he's the sweetest guy who ever lived.

Perhaps I am too quick to say, "Calm down, lady!" because I am projecting my sister, the nut-case.

420 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:14pm

re: #391 OldLineTexan

What's worse, we luvs ya!

yeesh... get a room....

/// ;-P

421 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:29pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

Well, shoot... if you can make it into the bottom 10 with only one or two downdings, that goes to show that LGF is just becoming too damn nice. Time was, you couldn't breach Bottom Comments without a good half dozen net downdings. And that was on a slow day.

I think people are not down dinging as much as they did originally. Either because we are getting jaded or just used to all the liberals here tweaking the devils noses.

422 Zimriel  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:37pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey


[BTW, this is the third or fourth post today which has been cut off in the process of posting. I don't know if anyone else has had this problem today, but I figured it was worth mentioning.]

Happened to me too. right after closing an italic tag.

423 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:06:55pm

re: #370 buzzsawmonkey

...and I don't recall whether or not government support was involved.

Whether or not there was government support would make a huge difference as to whether a reversible, temporary compulsory birth control could be imposed. These factors might make it possible for such a thing to be imposed without disturbing prior case law in any way.

[BTW, this is the third or fourth post today which has been cut off in the process of posting. I don't know if anyone else has had this problem today, but I figured it was worth mentioning.]

I've had a few do that

424 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:07:19pm

re: #412 Shug

sitting in the woods, on a lake house.
happily , cut off from the world for most of the time

and will be heading back tomorrow for 6 days....

highs in the 60's in N. Michigan

GLOBAL WARMING

I have it all down here. It's like the freakin' Sahara. The corn is popping in the fields. Farmers are selling pre-cooked bacon and beef jerky. Mockingbirds are too hot too even make fun of someone, much less mock them.

425 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:07:23pm

i just heard fcking pumpkin face on the radio, gloating and laughing abt. being a senator now and ready to get to "work."

unfcking believable. how can the news just keep getting worse and worse and worse?

426 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:07:54pm

re: #414 Truck Monkey

I am DEZes!

Set your sites kinda low did ya?
;)

427 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:03pm

re: #375 DEZes

AAAAk, top 10.

Congratulations, and that with a Crocodile Dundee quote. So very fitting.

428 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:09pm

We must not have had a good troll lately, a lot of the bottom ten are just -1 comments.

429 irongrampa  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:12pm

re: #425 nyc redneck

Relax, there's still 3 1/2 years to go yet.

Be patient.

430 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:14pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

Well, shoot... if you can make it into the bottom 10 with only one or two downdings, that goes to show that LGF is just becoming too damn nice. Time was, you couldn't breach Bottom Comments without a good half dozen net downdings. And that was on a slow day.

I could try for the bottom 10 too. Let me give this a whirl.

Thank god the House of Representatives passed the global warming bill. It takes serious statesmen/women to address serious issues such as this, and people like Pelosi, Waxman, and Markey should be commended for their courage and wisdom.

431 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:17pm
432 Shug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:20pm

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

433 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:35pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

I was not assuming I was asking a question. The lefties felt very strongly that Patraeus was destroying the country and labeled him a traitor. They failed to recognize the possibility that they were wrong and he was right. Same applies to this situation. I think the problem comes from the mentality that people cannot possible even imagine a reasonable person might have an opposing view point.
I strongly suspect the rhetoric surround the cap and trade bill is way overblown. It's probably not good legislation but it's not the end of the country. The politician who voted for it thought they were doing the right thing.

It is distressing that they insult us by not even reading the stuff they vote for. That drives me nuts.

434 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:46pm

re: #425 nyc redneck

i just heard fcking pumpkin face on the radio, gloating and laughing abt. being a senator now and ready to get to "work."

unfcking believable. how can the news just keep getting worse and worse and worse?

"Bozo franchise purchase by China" (just kidding)
/

435 OldLineTexan  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:09:53pm

re: #428 Thanos

We must not have had a good troll lately, a lot of the bottom ten are just -1 comments.

I pointed out a nirther, and pissed someone off. Hell, I thought folks here LOVED a good nirther.

/

436 lifeofthemind  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:10:00pm

Franken wins.
No law, no justice, no reason, no hope.

I am naked in the dark now. Nothing is between me and the ring of fire

437 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:10:00pm

re: #421 Nevergiveup

The left-liberal regulars here (including Avanti) are not trolls. We disagree often, but I don't want to throw any of them out a window (figuratively) after 2 or 3 posts. The lefty trolls, and the wacko nirthers and creationists have been mostly weeded out I think.

438 callahan23  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:10:02pm

re: #411 doppelganglander

Of course it could, if its various governments would get out of the way and adopt free-market capitalism and democratic government. But it's so much more fun to blame racism and colonialism.

Exactly and this opinion is also voiced in the article I posted.

439 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:10:39pm

re: #425 nyc redneck

i just heard fcking pumpkin face on the radio, gloating and laughing abt. being a senator now and ready to get to "work."

unfcking believable. how can the news just keep getting worse and worse and worse?

Being the highly educated Renaissance Man that I am, your post naturally reminds me of a scene from... Beavis & Butthead.

Beavis: Yeah, like, I had a nightmare last night... I dreamed that everything sucked.

Butthead: But Beavis... everything does suck.

[Twilight Zone-ish cmusic]

Beavis: NOOOOOOOO!

440 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:10:56pm

re: #410 Occasional Reader

I was just thinking the same thing.

Or as "Gabby Johnson" would say, "Rahwer!"

441 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:00pm

re: #430 Truck Monkey

I did my part. Good luck!

442 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:23pm
443 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:39pm

re: #437 ArchangelMichael

The left-liberal regulars here (including Avanti) are not trolls. We disagree often, but I don't want to throw any of them out a window (figuratively) after 2 or 3 posts. The lefty trolls, and the wacko nirthers and creationists have been mostly weeded out I think.

Yes and no. Someone like Avanti got down dings alot when he first signed on here. He was who he is then and hasn't changed much. People have just gotten used to him and don't get as excited as they used to about him.

444 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:48pm

re: #435 OldLineTexan

I pointed out a nirther, and pissed someone off. Hell, I thought folks here LOVED a good nirther.

/

I dinged you up so now you're whole again....
:)

445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:52pm

Any Minnesotans here? hmmmm?

446 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:11:58pm
447 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:12:10pm

re: #429 irongrampa

Relax, there's still 3 1/2 years to go yet.

Be patient.

that's a tall order,
during the 2nd coldest june on record.

448 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:12:48pm

re: #424 OldLineTexan

I have it all down here. It's like the freakin' Sahara. The corn is popping in the fields. Farmers are selling pre-cooked bacon and beef jerky. Mockingbirds are too hot too even make fun of someone, much less mock them.

Summer + Texas = Africa Hot

449 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:12:55pm

re: #415 Wendya

Damned near anything can be a weapon. That's why I think the UK's knife laws .... to the point of selling kitchen knives with no points...are so absurd.

About five minutes work with an Arkansas stone and some cutting oil can fix that, right quick.

/popped a few points in my time.

cheers

eon

450 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:12:56pm

re: #397 callahan23

From NewScientist.

There's a problem with such analyses. They proceed from the assumption that yields will match, or nearly match, what is achieved in land already under cultivation. And to match those yields, you need enormous amounts of fertilizer and pesticides.

And all that fertilizer and pesticide takes vast amounts of oil to produce, either indirectly as energy inputs or directly, as a primary ingredient.

Bringing that much additional land under cultivation at current yield rates would be impossible at present. There simply isn't enough oil production capacity on the planet to make it happen. And modern production rates are vast - something like 20 to 30 times the yield per acre that was achievable prior to the introduction of modern fertilizers following World War II, and the more recent introduction of extremely high-yield crops that are entirely dependent on a steady stream of that fertilizer.

There are ways to bring more land into cultivation, and ways to produce more food. But it ain't easy. As we saw just about a year ago, increases in fuel prices or the diversion of corn from food to fuel use directly impact the availability, and therefore the price, of food. It's a zero-sum game over the short term, and not a whole lot better over the medium term.

451 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:13:07pm

re: #431 buzzsawmonkey

It's the Procrustes Virus* that's lopping off the posts!

++++++++++ ++++

*Procrustes: Ogre innkeeper in the story of Theseus whose bed fit all comers, because he would rack them out if they were too short, or lop them off if they were too long.

I'm waiting for the Simpsons version.

ProKrusty: If your feet don't fit in the bed this time, I swear I'm gonna plotz!

452 debutaunt  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:13:17pm

re: #443 Nevergiveup

Yes and no. Someone like Avanti got down dings alot when he first signed on here. He was who he is then and hasn't changed much. People have just gotten used to him and don't get as excited as they used to about him.

He reports every time the stock market goes up.

453 Kragar  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:13:32pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

Why not distribute 100,000 bibles to Muslims? We could get Gideons to do it.

454 Kronocide  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:13:54pm

WTF IS UP WIT TEH CWAZY?

My goodness, I seem to have stuck my head into a hornet’s nest.

Not the best analogy. How about 'hit way to close to home.'

455 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:14:04pm

re: #428 Thanos

We must not have had a good troll lately, a lot of the bottom ten are just -1 comments.

We had a 0 comment* nirther sock yesterday.
* It had 1 comment until the delete stick, followed very quickly by the ban stick.

Does Stinky have a combo stick?

456 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:14:12pm
457 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:14:15pm

re: #445 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Any Minnesotans here? hmmmm?

Ex. I moved to the more "progressive" state of Maryland. Minnesota was just too conservative.

/and colder than a well diggers knee!

458 opnion  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:14:19pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?


Imagine if an organization was passing out Bibles.
The whole idea is to educate about Islam. I remember some member of CAIR claiming that 9/11 was a teachable moment.

459 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:21pm

re: #443 Nevergiveup

Yes and no. Someone like Avanti got down dings alot when he first signed on here. He was who he is then and hasn't changed much. People have just gotten used to him and don't get as excited as they used to about him.

It's the LGF version of the lefty friends some of us have in real life. We can't stand their politics... at all but it doesn't make us hate them. If they prove they aren't just trolls and stick around, they grow on you.

460 clgood  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:33pm

I think he's overreacting. "Cap and Traitor" obviously alliterates and, in the context of party unity, "traitor" is a fine description of what they did. I don't think any sane person thinks they are actual traitors (like, say, John Kerry) to their country. Rather they are "traitors" to their party who aided the "enemy" (ie: Democrats.) That's certainly the connotation I've taken it to mean.

461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:44pm

re: #458 opnion

I remember some member of CAIR claiming that 9/11 was a teachable moment.

"First, you must take lessons on how to be a pilot..."

462 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:50pm

No one else taking the bait on #430?

463 doppelganglander  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:52pm

Here's a little gasoline to pour on the compulsory abortion discussion:

Father Who Ditched Nine Kids Via Safe Haven Law Has Twins on the Way

The Nebraska man who abandoned his nine children under the state's Safe Haven law last year is expecting to become the father of twins, FOXNews.com has learned.

Gary Staton, 37, became a single father in February 2007 when his wife, RebelJane*, died of a cerebral aneurysm shortly after giving birth to the couple's ninth child. Unable to handle the burden alone, Staton made national news more than a year later on Sept. 24 when he dropped off his children — ages 1 to 17 — at a hospital in Omaha. According to the law at the time, parents could hand children up to age 18 over to state custody without prosecution. Legislators would later amend the law to limit its reach to infants up to 30 days old.

Joanne Manzer — the wife of RebelJane's father, Jack Manzer — told FOXNews.com that Staton informed his children last week that he's expecting to become a father again with his new girlfriend, a woman named Gail.

*Aren't you dying to know what those 9 kids are named?

PS My post was cut off after the Bold tag I tried to use to highlight RebelJane's name. I deleted the bold and it's posting just fine.

464 Picayune  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:15:55pm

re: #392 LGoPs

Thanks, I was sure impressed by this "NO BS" Aussie Senator last week when I read the article. Perhaps there's hope yet. Sure would like to see Senator Fielding rip a big new one in that slimy shill Krugman, and Paul's just begging for it.

As for American sheep, hell, even the French (Pres Sarkozy "no more blue smurfs in FR" and calling out Iran on a stolen election/mass murder) and Germans have more apparent spine these days than the good ole US of A. Pitiful, ain't it?

465 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:16:23pm
466 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:16:25pm

re: #459 ArchangelMichael

It's the LGF version of the lefty friends some of us have in real life. We can't stand their politics... at all but it doesn't make us hate them. If they prove they aren't just trolls and stick around, they grow on you.

I think it might almost be easier here. Out in the real world, Most of my liberal friends and I have parted ways.

467 IslandLibertarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:16:32pm

re: #328 Ojoe

Carbon carbon
Bo barbon
Banana fana
Fo farbon
Me my mo marbon
Carbon!

"How the hell 'we gunna tax that?"
"0"

468 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:16:36pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

To be fair... the ACLU is being perfectly consistent if it has nothing to say on the subject. This is a private organization sending out religious literature; they have a 1st Amendment right to do so.

469 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:16:50pm

re: #449 eon

About five minutes work with an Arkansas stone and some cutting oil can fix that, right quick.

/popped a few points in my time.

cheers

eon

This: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...] is beyond absurd. They actually want money for that?

470 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:17:01pm

re: #458 opnion

Imagine if an organization was passing out Bibles.

Um... organizations pass out Bibles all the time.

471 irongrampa  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:17:03pm

re: #447 nyc redneck

Cool up here, too. This last week was the first we've had anything like a normal June. Good part was, it's kept the bugs down nicely.

472 opnion  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:17:38pm

re: #461 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

"First, you must take lessons on how to be a pilot..."

"I need only knowing how to steer plane. No teaching me landing Infidel!"

473 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:17:50pm

re: #462 Truck Monkey

No one else taking the bait on #430?

Not gonna do it, nope.

474 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:17:59pm

re: #462 Truck Monkey

Not me. I don't ding down friends, unless they lose their minds... I'd give GOTC the MOADDs if she were here.

475 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:18:08pm

re: #466 Nevergiveup

I think it might almost be easier here. Out in the real world, Most of my liberal friends and I have parted ways.

Out in the real world, the ones I parted ways with weren't particularly good friends in the first place. The ones that were are still there. They just know which conversational topics are best left avoided.

476 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:18:09pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

Are they North or South Koreans?

477 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:18:22pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

I don't see why the ACLU would get involved. There aren't any government funds being used.

478 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:18:30pm

re: #364 SixDegrees

Links?

He refuses to provide one, and I just spent a half hour trying to find any indication that the content of his link was accurate. I would think if Obama science actually wrote or spoke in favor of mandatory abortion, I'd find a smoking gun fairly quickly.
I did find a link to the book mentioned, but it does not list Holden as a "coauthor" for that book. It would be so much easier if the poster would just provide a link.

link...

479 LGoPs  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:19:01pm

re: #464 Picayune

Thanks, I was sure impressed by this "NO BS" Aussie Senator last week when I read the article. Perhaps there's hope yet. Sure would like to see Senator Fielding rip a big new one in that slimy shill Krugman, and Paul's just begging for it.

As for American sheep, hell, even the French (Pres Sarkozy "no more blue smurfs in FR" and calling out Iran on a stolen election/mass murder) and Germans have more apparent spine these days than the good ole US of A. Pitiful, ain't it?

The result of 30+ years of dumbed down education and a leftist media culture has changed this country fundamentally. I only hope it's not beyond repair.

480 DEZes  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:19:07pm

Is the next thread giving us the bird?--->

481 JCM  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:19:22pm

re: #432 Shug

anybody see this ?

100,000 Korans courtesy of CAIR

yoo hoo ACLU, WTF are you ?

Is it in English?

Isn't it only Allah's word in Arabic?
So they must be teaching everyone Arabic.

482 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:19:27pm

re: #478 avanti

Hey Sailor!

483 Picayune  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:19:54pm

re: #422 Zimriel

same for me twice today when using . So I copy before I sp ck.

484 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:20:05pm

re: #430 Truck Monkey

Nice try Lao Che!

485 SixDegrees  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:20:22pm

re: #452 debutaunt

He reports every time the stock market goes up.

It's a response to others who report only when the stock market goes down.

486 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:20:28pm
487 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:20:37pm

re: #474 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Not me. I don't ding down friends, unless they lose their minds... I'd give GOTC the MOADDs if she were here.

I heard she split. I'll take the blame for it.

488 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:21:12pm

re: #478 avanti

He refuses to provide one, and I just spent a half hour trying to find any indication that the content of his link was accurate. I would think if Obama science actually wrote or spoke in favor of mandatory abortion, I'd find a smoking gun fairly quickly.
I did find a link to the book mentioned, but it does not list Holden as a "coauthor" for that book. It would be so much easier if the poster would just provide a link.

link...

Avanti... did you read the three authors on that book cover on Amazon?

489 Randall Gross  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:21:19pm

re: #453 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why not distribute 100,000 bibles to Muslims? We could get Gideons to do it.

We could mail a bible to Keith Ellison in retribution...

490 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:21:20pm

re: #478 avanti

but it does not list Holden as a "coauthor" for that book

Um... other than on the book's cover, of course.

491 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:21:26pm

A vegetarian that designs kitchens?

492 Shug  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:21:56pm

re: #453 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why not distribute 100,000 bibles to Muslims? We could get Gideons to do it.

and you'd have a lot of worried Gideons

just sayin'

493 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:22:31pm

re: #491 Ben Hur

A vegetarian that designs kitchens?

Vegetables meet their gratuitous end in Kitchens as well.

494 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:22:34pm

re: #486 Iron Fist

How many times do I gotta tellya? I'm in the Peoples' Republic of DC... no SMGs allowed for me. (Now if I move to Virginia, OTOH...)

495 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:22:58pm

re: #491 Ben Hur

A vegetarian that designs kitchens?

... on a planet where apes evolved from men!

496 Truck Monkey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:23:38pm

re: #494 Occasional Reader

How many times do I gotta tellya? I'm in the Peoples' Republic of DC... no SMGs allowed for me. (Now if I move to Virginia, OTOH...)

Only if you obey the law. Those that skirt the law have no problem whatsoever of finding any weapon they please.

497 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:24:15pm

re: #478 avanti

He refuses to provide one, and I just spent a half hour trying to find any indication that the content of his link was accurate. I would think if Obama science actually wrote or spoke in favor of mandatory abortion, I'd find a smoking gun fairly quickly.
I did find a link to the book mentioned, but it does not list Holden as a "coauthor" for that book. It would be so much easier if the poster would just provide a link.

link...

And of course, you couldn't find this yourself...

[Link: www.questia.com...]

498 Ben Hur  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:24:20pm

And here, I plan to put the crematorium, *ahem*, scuse me, I mean, oven, yes, the oven. Right over here.

499 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:26:18pm

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

And of course, you couldn't find this yourself...

[Link: www.questia.com...]

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

500 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:26:22pm
501 nyc redneck  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:26:35pm

re: #471 irongrampa

Cool up here, too. This last week was the first we've had anything like a normal June. Good part was, it's kept the bugs down nicely.

yes, those black flies that you can hardly see but certainly feel later.
my tomatoes and peppers are getting anxious for the sun.

502 eon  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:28:14pm

re: #469 Wendya

This: [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...] is beyond absurd. They actually want money for that?

Apparently, they're unaware that the accepted "silent kill" technique with a knife is to grab the target from behind, and use the edge to slit open the throat.

My estimate is, the Home Secretary (whoever it is right now) has never talked to anyone from the SAS, SBS, Royal Marine Commandos, or even their own Special Branch for that matter.

Besides, of those 322 stabbing deaths, about 30% were done with homemade stabbing weapons, according to their own statistics. Including quite a few in British prisons.

Legislating against objects, or trying to redesign them, has no effect on the ability or determination of someone who wants to kill. They'll just use some other method.

/Ask Medea, Richard III, or Robert Catesby (Guy Fawkes' employer).

cheers

eon

503 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:28:32pm

re: #499 Occasional Reader

This is like shooting fish in a barrel.

And of course, Avanti won't be back on this topic.

504 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:28:34pm

re: #497 Walter L. Newton

And of course, you couldn't find this yourself...

[Link: www.questia.com...]

Thanks, I looked harder, Holder was not the author, but did contribute to some chapters, but no did not write the abortion bit in the book, that was the author comment.

505 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:30:01pm

re: #502 eon

Apparently, they're unaware that the accepted "silent kill" technique with a knife is to grab the target from behind, and use the edge to slit open the throat.

Hm. I've read that that's not the recommended technique... too difficult to execute, too many ways to go wrong. Rather, it's to go into the kidneys through the back.

506 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:31:38pm

re: #500 Zimriel

Well not sure if I would go that far but he certainly does have his points of view about some things that I dont' agree with. But if you challenge them respectfully, you usually don't have a problem here.

507 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:32:17pm

re: #478 avanti

He refuses to provide one, and I just spent a half hour trying to find any indication that the content of his link was accurate. I would think if Obama science actually wrote or spoke in favor of mandatory abortion, I'd find a smoking gun fairly quickly.
I did find a link to the book mentioned, but it does not list Holden as a "coauthor" for that book. It would be so much easier if the poster would just provide a link.

link...

The book was Ecoscience

508 ladycatnip  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:32:27pm

#477 SixDegrees

Public funds are being used in public schools that cater to muslims. Wonder why the ACLU hasn't had any problems withwww.ibdeditorials.com...]> that

509 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:32:40pm

re: #500 Zimriel

On LGF, it is. This is an anti-conservative blog.

Charles chooses what to promote and what not to promote. There is a pattern this year.

This is a no bull shit blog and Charles has a right to post his opinion when he sniffs out some. Truth is not a left or right thing, it's just the truth.

510 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:32:49pm
511 Picayune  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:33:12pm

re: #479 LGoPs

"I only hope it's not beyond repair."

It's not, but we're in for some real Pain, thanks to your stated observation on edu/MSM and those useful "young/dumb" idiots who voted for Hope/Change. Wait until they get it in spades. The Obamanation is already in neg numbers today sez Rasmussen, and his party is just getting started.

As Dad used to say during the turbulent late 60's, "we take two steps forward and then one step back". Let's hope that former Naval Officer is right, but w/ the Clown form MN in the US Senate now, the weather's likely to get pretty rough until our next course correction occurs.

We need the RNC to bring Senator Fielding here to really explode some loony left heads. At least we can have some minor fun during this process of "Children-N-Charge."

512 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:33:19pm

ya know Avanti if people down dinged you just for expressing an opinion like you just did to Zimriel, you'd be plummeting back down the karma road again.

513 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:33:31pm

re: #507 Wendya

The book was Ecoscience

Thanks I found that book, but still no link to who said what, in what book.

514 Rancher  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:34:01pm

Words should mean something and the more we abuse those meanings in hyperbole the more we cheapen the meanings. Words like traitor and Nazi should be reserved for traitors and Nazis.

515 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:34:10pm

re: #509 avanti

This is a no bull shit blog and Charles has a right to post his opinion when he sniffs out some. Truth is not a left or right thing, it's just the truth.

And just because Charles says it doesn't mean it is truth. Gee if Charles stopped short sometimes, your nose would ........

516 horse  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:38:24pm

We are no longer in the age of Reagan. The last few years have seen rage trump reason in many a political environment. There were more rational adults in the 80's.

Nowadays there a crap load of 20-50 year olds who behave and react as irrational children. Whether they be nirthers, Paulists, code pinkers, AGWers, IDers, on the left and right there are a load of irrational people who ignore logic, data and reason. All that matters is forcing their unsubstantiated beliefs on everyone else. Anyone who goes against their beliefs will be attacked aggressively and without mercy. You can not deal with them much easier than dealing with the freakin' mullahs in Iran.

517 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:38:36pm

re: #512 Nevergiveup

ya know Avanti if people down dinged you just for expressing an opinion like you just did to Zimriel, you'd be plummeting back down the karma road again.

I disagree strongly with the comment that Charles is running a anti conservative blog, quite the contrary. If more blogs on the right were as intellectually honest as Charles I think conservative would be better served. I wish the leftie blogs had a "Charles" and thus the down ding.

518 [deleted]  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:38:40pm
519 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:40:37pm

re: #517 avanti

I disagree strongly with the comment that Charles is running a anti conservative blog, quite the contrary. If more blogs on the right were as intellectually honest as Charles I think conservative would be better served. I wish the leftie blogs had a "Charles" and thus the down ding.

Some people on this blog seem to think they own the franchise on " intellectually honesty" and the "truth".

520 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:40:47pm

re: #518 Iron Fist

Doing the kidneys is a good quick kill. The way I was taught to cut a throat from behind is not to try and slit from the front. The neck is designed to protect against just such a blow. Instead, use the point of your blade and go in through the side of the throat. Lever the blade out of the front of the throat. You'll do both carotids, both jugulars, and open the trachea if you have a long enough blade. You won't quite cut off their head (you aren't going to cut through the spine), but it is an instant mortal blow, even better than doing a femoral artery. And if you do it right they can't scream. You'll destroy the larynx as part of the move.

That's right... I think I saw that technique on "Dora the Explorer" once.

/

521 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:41:33pm

re: #515 Nevergiveup

And just because Charles says it doesn't mean it is truth. Gee if Charles stopped short sometimes, your nose would ........

Charles and I don't agree on a lot of things and I won't apologize for my opinions about how he runs this blog.

522 Wendya  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:42:09pm

re: #513 avanti

Thanks I found that book, but still no link to who said what, in what book.

[Link: www.questia.com...]

I believe they have free trials available. Look for page 837.

523 Kronocide  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:43:04pm

re: #500 Zimriel


LGF's mission this year is to embarrass everybody in the conservative movement it can. Understand that, and accept it, and rebut the arguments where you can. But don't bother convincing Charles to change his mind because, if you're a conservative, he's got a bias against you.

WTF Zim?

524 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:44:38pm

re: #521 avanti

Charles and I don't agree on a lot of things and I won't apologize for my opinions about how he runs this blog.

I'm not asking you to, but other people have a right to their opinion also. You and Charles don't' own that monopoly.

525 ShanghaiEd  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:44:58pm

re: #500 Zimriel

And if you close your eyes tight and keep clapping louder, all those pesky facts just disappear.
/

526 pingjockey  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:45:53pm

re: #500 Zimriel

Hmmm...I think you are wrong. IMO of course.

527 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:47:12pm

re: #452 debutaunt

He reports every time the stock market goes up.

Nope, usually just in a reply about how bad shit is going. Today someone reported how it was down, but yesterday it was up. Fair and balanced.

528 Nevergiveup  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:47:54pm

re: #527 avanti

Nope, usually just in a reply about how bad shit is going. Today someone reported how it was down, but yesterday it was up. Fair and balanced.

Please

529 Occasional Reader  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:47:58pm

re: #500 Zimriel

You know, you could have just commented on how you disagree more with Charles than you did a year ago. Hey, I find I do, too.

But instead, you have to go ahead and say he's actually being dishonest. And that, I do not agree with.

Later.

530 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:48:13pm

re: #526 pingjockey

Hmmm...I think you are wrong. IMO of course.

Maybe he just going for the bottom comments thing and will fess up in a moment.

531 jvic  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:48:49pm

re: #264 Kosh's Shadow

We should increase the amount of nuclear power anyway.
And now, it looks like we could get uranium from the Moon.

This could come to nothing...or it could be the flutter of a butterfly wing that will change the course of history. Thanks for the post.

532 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:49:25pm

re: #500 Zimriel

Quite a meltdown there. I'll just mention that it's complete crap -- and bid you adieu.

533 avanti  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:50:46pm

re: #524 Nevergiveup

I'm not asking you to, but other people have a right to their opinion also. You and Charles don't' own that monopoly.

Look, I expect a down ding when my comment goes off the rails and I think the comment about Charles's dishonesty makes the cut IMHO.

534 horse  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:52:15pm

re: #512 Nevergiveup

ya know Avanti if people down dinged you just for expressing an opinion like you just did to Zimriel, you'd be plummeting back down the karma road again.

I consider myself somewhere between conservative and libertarian and I down dinged him because he was just plain wrong. You can't come on this site and make broad unsubstantiated opinions without suffering the consequence. I still learn that the hard way myself occasionally.

Hell, I have even occasionally down dinged Avanti and KT when I thought they were way, way off, but I have also occasionally up dinged them when I thought they were spot on. People have to come to this site with an open mind or they will end up with their rage overcoming their reason. I really, really appreciate that aspect of this site. It has made me a minuscule wiser than I was a year ago.

535 lostlakehiker  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:54:00pm

re: #261 Shr_Nfr

Fine, you can develop them. This is being typed on a computer that is being powered by my solar panels. No problem. But the problem becomes dishonest compulsion under the guise of bad science. The correlation between CO2 and temperature since 2000 has been -0.14 with an r-squared of 0.02. Nothing against alternative power sources, nukes included. Have them make sense though for honest reasons. Or let people like me who can afford to shell the bucks out for them do it as a hobby and or slightly subsidize them since a case can be made that it reduces our reliance on imported foreign products. But do not hand me a steaming pile of crap about CO2 and AGW spewed forth by a divinity school dropout and a bad film-maker and the re-enforced by somebody who has a dog in the fight economically.

Well, I'm against "cap and trade". For the time being, I'm also against a carbon tax. I agree with you that much of the "green" movement is giving dishonest projections about global warming, with Gore leading the parade of prevarication.

Just because there are liars who say we should take AGW seriously doesn't mean that we should blow it off. There are others who make a better case.

I'd like to see us first do those things for which there are pretty good reasons entirely apart from coping with AGW. The world supply of oil is running tight. Coal has environmental costs (ash, sulfur, etc.) that have nothing to do with CO2. Nuclear power has been shown safe and reliable when done the French way. For those reasons, we should build many more nuclear power plants.

Solar energy, if we could develop the technology sufficiently--and we're getting close--offers the prospect of abundant secure energy, with no humanly relevant time limit. For that reason, we should continue R&D and build pilot plants and encourage anybody who wants to take a stab at making it commercial. Wind energy offers similar advantages. Efficiency is something we can do now that will improve our economy regardless of whether it's needed to cope with AGW.

As to AGW, your point that temperatures have not tracked CO2 content over the past decade is weak. Nobody honestly arguing the case for AGW claims that temperatures will track CO2 content in lockstep. There are other forces at work. Some of them we know about: when there is a lull in sunspot activity, net solar energy output dips a tad, and considering that the sun is the A #1 reason the earth isn't colder than Pluto, any dip there figures to push temperatures down. Others we don't have figured out. For the time being we call such forces "chance". Hot decades and cold decades come and go throughout history and nobody can predict them, even in hindsight. Our relatively weak CO2 AGW signal can easily be masked, over any ten-year interval of time, by forces pushing the other way and by this chance component.

Give it another ten or twenty years. When the winds of chance turn and the heating effect of CO2 has a tailwind instead of a headwind, we'll see more records falling. We'll see a Northwest Passage open in the Arctic ocean during Augusts. We'll see many glaciers retreat, and even then, we'll see cold snaps, the odd advancing glacier, and so on. The evidence will never be absolutely cut and dried.

536 nikis-knight  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 3:55:06pm

Well, I'm not about to send hate mail, but when someone votes for something that not even their staff would have had time to read, that will radically alter the US economy, they have betrayed their integrity at the very least.

537 Jack Burton  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 4:06:01pm

Wow, it's disturbing when someone you think is generally level-headed, intellectually honest, and tolerant of some criticism totally has a complete avalanche breakdown like that. Not the first time I've seen it here and though I hope it to be the last, I have a feeling it wont be.

538 Kronocide  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 4:12:34pm

re: #532 Charles

Quite a meltdown there. I'll just mention that it's complete crap -- and bid you adieu.

It seems people have some issues with others/ideas here and don't deal with it for a long time, then blow and let 'er rip.

How about just letting it loose as it happens and letting the chips fall where they may?

I liked Zim and still do, but that was BS. Shoulda dealt with each issue at a time instead of letting it build up.

539 Empire1  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 4:25:25pm

re: #415 Wendya

Damned near anything can be a weapon. That's why I think the UK's knife laws .... to the point of selling kitchen knives with no points...are so absurd.

durn straight! Anything I can pick up is either a weapon or a diversion to let me get a weapon.

As my father was fond of saying, "There's no such thing as a dangerous weapon; there are only dangerous people." Iron Fist with a fingernail file (or with nothing!) is dangerous; someone with a nuke and no willingness to use it is totally non-dangerous.

540 Salem  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 4:32:41pm

Only morbid curiosity brings me here, now.

541 im_gumby_damnit  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:22:25pm

The author of this article is all wet. The Republicans who voted for this garbage are "traitors" consistent with the first definition of this term offered by Webster's Dictionary which is "one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty." I don't believe any reasonable Republican is using this term in the sense of the second definition which provides "one who commits treason."

542 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:34:30pm

I believe Tapscott is imprecise in his choice of words thus creating a strawman for the unwary reader.

Traitor

Treason

He's using a vague definition he has to leap over common usage and attach a more formal definition to the term that isn't there. Anyone can be a traitor. The word traitor does not have a specific reference to national loyalty as Tapscott suggests. It may in his dictionary, but not in Merriam Webster. His precise usuage is not justified. I believe he meant treason.

Though the people yelling traitor would probably just as easily have used treasonous and not cared about the difference. Normally I wouldn't either.

543 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:36:44pm

Hope does not spring from negating the opposition. Hope springs from leaders with vision. Time spent on negating the opposition usually means time not spent being an electable leader.

544 Outrider  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:47:02pm

Traitor is too strong a word for these eight Republicans; but just to be straight about it, according to Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary the definition of traitor is: 1 : one who betrays another's trust or is false to an obligation or duty.

Rightly speaking, there is little difference in mentality between those calling the Republicans traitors and the leftists calling Gen. David Petraeus “General Betrayus”. Both are inappropriate. IMHO

545 Muadib  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:47:32pm

0bamunism is over the line.

546 code red 21  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:54:12pm

re: #463 doppelganglander

Here's a little gasoline to pour on the compulsory abortion discussion:

Father Who Ditched Nine Kids Via Safe Haven Law Has Twins on the Way


*Aren't you dying to know what those 9 kids are named?

PS My post was cut off after the Bold tag I tried to use to highlight RebelJane's name. I deleted the bold and it's posting just fine.


He needs a penectomy.

547 witness  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 5:56:09pm

I haven't posted in a very long time, but I need to cast my vote that they are traitors because IMO they are helping to destroy the future of America. Each vote cast in favor of another socialist policy who's true intent is to pad the pockets of the special interests who stand to profit from these bad policies while throwing our children's future under the bus is indeed a traitorous act. There are no checks and balances left in our system. Next is health care socialism followed by fairness doctrine, etc. It is a communist revolution in slow motion and there is nothing we can do to stop it. Even when 2010 arrives it will be too late and given Acorn voter fraud and census shenanigans our electoral process is no better than Iran's. I haven't posted in a while because I can no longer invest emotional energy as I need everything I have to just keep my job and family together. America peaked in the 1950's. Sad to say, but we are the first generation of its great decline.

548 capitalist piglet  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 6:37:51pm

re: #419 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

My sister is a case in point. Is on the hunt (reverse "Cougar style", if you will) for any reason to be offended, put off, and/or frightened.

Mom's Oncologist's partner (a real oncologist and everything [but with goatee, longer hair, and {gasp} jeans) came in... freaked my sister out beyond all rationality.

Said "The guy gave me the creeps!". My wife works with him, says he's the sweetest guy who ever lived.

Perhaps I am too quick to say, "Calm down, lady!" because I am projecting my sister, the nut-case.

Maybe it makes me a nutcase, but I don't usually anticipate being propositioned for sex by a complete stranger who looks like he just came from Seahawks training camp in my kitchen...and it scared me.

I know the vast, vast majority of guys would never behave the way he did, but it made it very difficult for to completely "relax" or "calm down" around anyone after that. I always have someone with me when work is being done on my house now.

It's just different being a woman, FBV. It really is.

549 Lynn B.  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 8:05:53pm

re: #288 NukeAtomrod

Sadly, I fear that too many Pro-Choice Americans would tow the line on this one, for the same reason they support partial-birth abortions. Any law against any type of abortion is seen as a threat to Row vs. Wade.

Obviously, you don't know too many pro-choice Americans.

Without even getting close to the "partial-birth abortion" issue, I'll remind you that the whole rationale behind whatever shred of "support" there may be for it is the "between a woman and her doctor" thing. Get it? The government should butt out.

So no, to the ultimate contrary, pro-choice Americans who go so far as to support a woman's right to elect to undergo a "partial-birth abortion" in consultation with her doctor would NEVER support government mandated control over a woman's right to give birth as she chooses.

Hope this helps.

550 Dr. Shalit  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 8:48:54pm

Charles -

I agree, "traitor" is Too Loose a term. Let's go back to the days of Rep. David Crockett (W), TN. Call them "Finks" in honor of the "Great Mike." That includes Rep. Chris Smith of NJ, an otherwise exemplary US Rep.

-S-

551 Optimizer  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #237 Walter L. Newton

Hits the nail right on the proverbial head. This is a textbook example of someone (usually a Leftist) attempting to control the debate through controlling the language. He's going to dictate to you what "traitor" means, and thereby "win" his "debate" - by definition!

But what's obvious (at least to me, anyway) is that this guy is really just kind of an obtuse jerk. He asks us to explain something that should be obvious. Petraeus was not simply a military man, let's remember - he was the commander of our troop in combat during a shooting war. Calling him a "traitor" - which can only refer to the "giving aid and comfort to the enemy" sense of the word in this context - is especially pernicious and perverse (given the context - that there was no evidence behind the claim whatsoever).

As Walter points out, the context of the 8 Republicans being called "traitors" is obviously in the sense of "traitors to their party", as part of typical inflammatory rhetoric. Yeah, there's the argument that voting for the bill is treasonous (which has some merit since it can only harm the economy, making us weaker in defense from our enemies, and really has no significant possible "up-side", even according to the theology of devoted AGW Kool-Aid drinkers). But I don't think that's the more popular usage, since this is only directed at the Republicans.

It may seem over-the-top, but the Republican Party is against the ropes these days, and any Republican coming out in favor of this bill taints what little they seem to have left of their "brand". They hope to return to power over bills like this, and every one of their members who defects on the "big ones" hurts their cause a LOT. The Republicans need to be able to blame the Democrats for the really damaging stuff - like this bill. The 8 helped the "enemy" in this case, and so, yes, were "traitors to their party.

552 hazzyday  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 10:10:18pm

re: #548 capitalist piglet

Answer to previous question. I've met Ron Sims.

Re: this topic. I have a woman friend who just had a package delivered to her door and the guy wouldn't leave her alone. Back at his work he stalked all her contact info and constantly called her to hook up. It had me very worried especially since she was married and pointed it out to him. Eventually he got a clue and moved on. yes it is very different for women.

553 saxking20  Tue, Jun 30, 2009 10:56:58pm

I just saw Richard Clarke on Keith BigMouth and Clarke is a disgrace. He should be tried as a traitor for all the crap he spouted after he got out of the Army.

554 NukeAtomrod  Wed, Jul 1, 2009 12:04:15am

re: #549 Lynn B.

Obviously, you don't know too many pro-choice Americans.

Without even getting close to the "partial-birth abortion" issue, I'll remind you that the whole rationale behind whatever shred of "support" there may be for it is the "between a woman and her doctor" thing. Get it? The government should butt out.

So no, to the ultimate contrary, pro-choice Americans who go so far as to support a woman's right to elect to undergo a "partial-birth abortion" in consultation with her doctor would NEVER support government mandated control over a woman's right to give birth as she chooses.

Hope this helps.

Believe me, I understand your point. And I actually have a family member who is an executive in Planned Parenthood, so I'm not ill informed. It's just that any time someone proposes a limitation on abortion, no matter how reasonable, the Pro-Choice crowd vehemently opposes it. For example, requiring parental notification for a minor who wants an abortion. Even with a clause stating that notification can be waived by a judge if appropriate.

That is why I would not be surprised to see a large contingent of Pro-Choice activists defend a population control law in order to protect the elective abortion laws that they actually desire.

I hope this clarifies my point.

555 [deleted]  Wed, Jul 1, 2009 4:35:21am
556 soxfan4life  Wed, Jul 1, 2009 6:08:59am

re: #555 taxfreekiller

So, what do we call Lt. for life John F. Kerry, current U.S. Senator from Mass.?

I call him our winter Senator, asshole, whatever the mood strikes.


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