Mt. Kilimanjaro’s Ice Cap is Vanishing

Environment • Views: 2,952

Uh oh. Mt. Kilimanjaro Ice Cap Continues Rapid Retreat, Study Says.

The ice atop Mount Kilimanjaro in Tanzania has continued to retreat rapidly, declining 26 percent since 2000, scientists say in a new report.

Yet the authors of the study, to be published Tuesday in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, reached no consensus on whether the melting could be attributed mainly to humanity’s role in warming the global climate.

Eighty-five percent of the ice cover that was present in 1912 has vanished, the scientists said.

Jump to bottom

336 comments
1 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:15:26pm

Does this mean that someday, somewhere, highschoolers won't have to read Snows of Kiliminajaro? That piece of symbolist dreck is one of the worst impostures ever forced on us by Hemingway.

2 PaxAmericana  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:15:58pm

But...Global Climate Change is a sham?

/

3 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:17:23pm

re: #1 Guanxi88

Always, the silver lining.

4 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:19:02pm

re: #1 Guanxi88

I'll take unpredictable climate change and dwindling fresh water supply if it means my kids don't have to read that drunk's crap in school //

5 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:20:03pm

Ludwig... hurry, get on this thread before these people start having too much fun.
//

6 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:20:21pm

re: #3 Decatur Deb

Always, the silver lining.

See? and my family and co-workers all say I'm just spiteful and negative. This proves that I can see the good in anything.

7 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:21:42pm

re: #5 Walter L. Newton

Totally sweet.

8 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:22:00pm

Here's a photographic comparison of the Kilimanjaro ice coverage in 1993 and 2000.
(scroll down to bottom)

...in 1912, there were about 12.1 square kilometers of ice on the mountain, but a map in 2000 showed only 2.2 sq km of ice remained on the mountain - a loss of 80% of ice since then.


[Link: www.earthkam.ucsd.edu...]

9 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:22:54pm

re: #7 cliffster

Totally sweet.

I aim to please.

10 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:23:47pm

re: #8 jaunte

Here's a photographic comparison of the Kilimanjaro ice coverage in 1993 and 2000.
(scroll down to bottom)


[Link: www.earthkam.ucsd.edu...]

great link!

11 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:25:57pm

re: #8 jaunte

Here's a photographic comparison of the Kilimanjaro ice coverage in 1993 and 2000.
(scroll down to bottom)


[Link: www.earthkam.ucsd.edu...]

Similar article, similar conclusions...

[Link: www.sciencenews.org...]

12 Gearhead  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:26:40pm

I've got it all handled. I just ordered 60,000 gallons of Rogaine.

Volunteers, please?

13 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:27:31pm

re: #10 reine.de.tout

It's strange that a glacier on a mountain in Tanzania is named Furtwängler.

14 WindHorse  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:29:11pm

the night I was born... I swear the moon turned fire red...

15 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:29:48pm

Climate change will burn Yosemite

Wild fires within California's world famous Yosemite National Park are set to become more frequent and severe due to climate change.

New research has unpicked how this may happen; and it is not just that warming temperatures directly trigger more fires.

They will also reduce the amount of snow that covers the forest in winter.

That lack of snow will then allow lightening strikes to trigger more fires, which burn more intensely.

continued...

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

16 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:29:56pm
Youtube Video
17 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:30:16pm

re: #13 jaunte

Ah; named after Walter Furtwängler[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

18 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:33:55pm

glaciers slowly melting...

19 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:34:01pm

I'm just wondering if early man panicked as much as we do when the glaciers started melting and sea levels started so much that what is now the UK became an island.


We've got iPhones and they had stone tools. How they ever survived is beyond me.

20 really grumpy big dog johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:34:23pm

{{{ I am so sick of the global warming crap! }}}

When's the last time Kilimanjaro was without ice? It is, after all, located pretty close to the equator, and I hear it's pretty warm down below...

21 Van Helsing  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:35:42pm

re: #14 WindHorse

the night I was born... I swear the moon turned fire red...

Upding for the gratuitous Jimi Hendrix lyrics.

22 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:35:43pm

No consensus that it is due to man-made global warming ?

But we keep being told that the science is all settled.

Denialists afoot ? How very dare they !!!

23 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:35:54pm

re: #19 oh_dude

(snip)
We've got iPhones and they had stone tools. How they ever survived is beyond me.

Skin of Our Teeth.

24 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:37:14pm

re: #19 oh_dude

I'm just wondering if early man panicked as much as we do when the glaciers started melting and sea levels started so much that what is now the UK became an island.

We've got iPhones and they had stone tools. How they ever survived is beyond me.

They had an ax for that...

25 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:37:56pm

re: #20 really grumpy big dog johnson

{{{ I am so sick of the global warming crap! }}}

When's the last time Kilimanjaro was without ice? It is, after all, located pretty close to the equator, and I hear it's pretty warm down below...

They seem unsure:

There was no presence of the bubbles in the deeper layers of the cores, Dr. Thompson said.

If his dating of the ice core layers is accurate, surface melting like that seen in recent years has not occurred over the last 11,700 years.

But Georg Kaser, a glaciologist at the Institute for Geography of the University of Innsbruck in Austria, said that the ice measured was only a few hundred years old and that it had come and gone over centuries.

One scientist thinks the ice is almost 12,000 years old, the other thinks the ice is only a few hundred years old.

26 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:37:59pm

Possible tie-in to 6,000 year age of the earth theories?

A detailed analysis of six cores retrieved from the rapidly shrinking ice fields atop Tanzania’s Mount Kilimanjaro shows that those tropical glaciers began forming about 11,700 years ago.

The cores also yielded remarkable evidence of three catastrophic droughts that plagued the tropics 8,300, 5,200 and 4,000 years ago.
...
The analysis of the core showed a 500-year period beginning around 8,300 years ago when methane levels in the ice dropped dramatically. “We believe that this represents a time when the lakes of Africa were drying up,” Thompson said, adding that the methane levels would register the extent of the wetlands thriving in the tropics.

The cores showed an abrupt depletion in oxygen-18 isotopes that researchers believe signals a second drought event occurring around 5,200 years ago. This coincides with the period when anthropologists believe people in the region began to come together to form cities and social structures. Prior to this, the population of mainly hunters and gatherers had been more scattered.


[Link: researchnews.osu.edu...]

27 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:38:01pm

re: #24 SteveC

HA HA!

28 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:38:02pm

re: #23 Decatur Deb

Skin of Our Teeth.

Alien Giant Black Rectangular Monolith Intervention, according to Arthur C Clark

29 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:38:03pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

glaciers slowly melting...

little rivulets of white water tumbling down the granite mountainside...

30 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:38:53pm

F U Africans! We ain't giving up our 600hp muscle cars just so you can have water to drink. Hell I'm going to go out in the backyard and put twice as much charcoal as I need in the grill to make dinner just to help ruin your lives. Bwahahahaha...

///

31 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:38:54pm

re: #18 Walter L. Newton

glaciers slowly melting...

West Antarctic Ice Sheet May Not Be Losing Ice As Fast As Once Thought

AUSTIN, Texas — New ground measurements made by the West Antarctic GPS Network (WAGN) project, composed of researchers from The University of Texas at Austin, The Ohio State University, and The University of Memphis, suggest the rate of ice loss of the West Antarctic ice sheet has been slightly overestimated.

"Our work suggests that while West Antarctica is still losing significant amounts of ice, the loss appears to be slightly slower than some recent estimates," said Ian Dalziel, lead principal investigator for WAGN. "So the take home message is that Antarctica is contributing to rising sea levels. It is the rate that is unclear."

In 2006, another team of researchers used data from the Gravity Recovery and Climate Experiment (GRACE) satellites to infer a significant loss of ice mass over West Antarctica from 2002 to 2005. The GRACE satellites do not measure changes in ice loss directly but measure changes in gravity, which can be caused both by ice loss and vertical uplift of the bedrock underlying the ice.

Now, for the first time, researchers have directly measured the vertical motion of the bedrock at sites across West Antarctica using the Global Positioning System (GPS). The results should lead to more accurate estimates of ice mass loss.

32 Stuart Leviton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:39:00pm

re: #19 oh_dude

We've got iPhones and they had stone tools. How they ever survived is beyond me.

We've got computers; We're tapping phone line. I know that ain't allowed.

33 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:39:47pm

re: #28 cliffster

Full of stars.

34 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:40:09pm

re: #22 JohninLondon

No consensus that it is due to man-made global warming ?

But we keep being told that the science is all settled.

Denialists afoot ? How very dare they !!!

Don't worry, before the night is out we will hear that there is certainty. One of the scientists will be revealed as an immoral liar who smokes cigarettes and drives an SUV.

/

35 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:40:26pm

re: #33 Decatur Deb

Full of stars.

Open the pod bay doors, HAL

36 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:40:26pm

Philly is playing home run derby against the Yankees tonight.

37 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:41:25pm

re: #29 Spare O'Lake

little rivulets of white water tumbling down the granite mountainside...

Adios, nieges d'antan.


Deja Moo?

38 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:41:32pm

re: #15 Jimmah

HELLO!
The whole fricking state is overdue to burn!
We've been "managing" what burns for far too long.
When it builds up, it REALLY burns!

BAH! We're using goats, now!
[Link: www.sandiego.gov...]

39 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:41:38pm

re: #36 NJDhockeyfan

Utley is a beast. Go Phils. Destroy the Evil Empire!

40 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:42:47pm

re: #15 Jimmah

Bah!
Climate change is gonna burn the whole state from end to end.
We've been "managing" it for too long!
Cue: The Doors!

41 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:43:06pm

re: #39 oh_dude

Utley is a beast. Go Phils. Destroy the Evil Empire!

Lord Jeter! I thought I smelled your foul stench when I was brought on board.

42 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:43:24pm

re: #32 Stuart Leviton

Check this out...

The NSA to Store a YOTTABYTE of Your Phone Calls, Emails and Other Big Brothery Stuff

I didn't realize that GW was still in the White House. Change!

43 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:43:32pm

re: #37 Decatur Deb

Adios, nieges d'antan.

Deja Moo?

Eau non!

44 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:43:39pm

Oldest Preserved Spider Web Dates Back to Dinosaurs

The world’s oldest known spider web has been discovered on a beach in Sussex, England, trapped inside an ancient chunk of amber.

Scientists found the rare amber fossil in December, and have now confirmed that it contains remnants of spider silk spun roughly 140 million years ago by an ancestor of modern orb-weaving spiders. After slicing the amber into thin sections and examining each piece under a high-powered microscope, the researchers discovered that the ancient silk threads share several features common to modern spider webs, including droplets of sticky glue used to hold the web together and capture prey.

According to paleobiologist Martin Brasier of Oxford University, the gooey droplets suggest that spiders were starting to spin webs that were better adapted for catching flying insects. “Interestingly, a huge radiation took place in flying insects and bark beetles about 140-130 million years ago,” Brasier wrote in an email to Wired.com. “So we may be seeing a co-evolution of spiders and insects here.”

The new discovery is the first example of an amber fossil from the early Cretaceous period, when dinosaurs like spinosaurs and psittocosaurs roamed the Earth.

Cool!

45 hal2010  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:00pm

re: #35 SteveC

Open the pod bay doors, HAL

No.

/sees all

goodnight all!

46 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:02pm
Youtube Video


Youtube Video


Youtube Video


Youtube Video


Youtube Video


Youtube Video
47 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:27pm

re: #42 oh_dude

Check this out...

The NSA to Store a YOTTABYTE of Your Phone Calls, Emails and Other Big Brothery Stuff

I didn't realize that GW was still in the White House. Change!

If this all goes wrong for some reason, you'll hear about how it's Bush's fault.

48 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:28pm

re: #43 Spare O'Lake

Eau non!

Oh Noes.

49 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:40pm

re: #34 Bagua

Don't worry, before the night is out we will hear that there is certainty. One of the scientists will be revealed as an immoral liar who smokes cigarettes and drives an SUV.

/

I'd rather that they focus on less challenging things until the science is a bit more understood. The National Weather Service missed our high temperature today by 17 degrees in the last prediction.

That sort of scares me about this consensus of man-made warming thing...

50 Van Helsing  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:44:52pm

re: #42 oh_dude

Check this out...

The NSA to Store a YOTTABYTE of Your Phone Calls, Emails and Other Big Brothery Stuff

I didn't realize that GW was still in the White House. Change!

It's OK. This administration will never use that information for evil.

51 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:45:56pm

re: #49 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I'd rather that they focus on less challenging things until the science is a bit more understood. The National Weather Service missed our high temperature today by 17 degrees in the last prediction.

That sort of scares me about this consensus of man-made warming thing...

The National Weather Service is not peer reviewed. All the climate change experts are. Makes a real big difference.

52 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:46:12pm

re: #42 oh_dude

Check this out...

The NSA to Store a YOTTABYTE of Your Phone Calls, Emails and Other Big Brothery Stuff


I'd hate to have to index that.

53 reine.de.tout  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:46:16pm

re: #34 Bagua

Don't worry, before the night is out we will hear that there is certainty. One of the scientists will be revealed as an immoral liar who smokes cigarettes and drives an SUV.

/

Those smokers are eeeveeel people, I tells ya!

54 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:46:29pm

re: #45 hal2010

No.

/sees all

goodnight all!

I don't know if he's psychotic, neurotic, or just plain crazy.

Chandra?

No. Hal.

- 2010: The Year We Make Contact

55 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:46:47pm

re: #50 Van Helsing

It's OK. This administration will never use that information for evil.


It's cool, you can call them and ask where you left your car keys.

56 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:47:16pm

re: #51 Walter L. Newton

The National Weather Service is not peer reviewed. All the climate change experts are. Makes a real big difference.

So peer review is the real answer? Maybe one day we'll have forecasts that are peer-reviewed for accuracy?

Oh goody. I can't wait.

57 MandyManners  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:48:01pm

Oh. No.

58 hal2010  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:48:04pm

re: #54 SteveC

I don't know if he's psychotic, neurotic, or just plain crazy.

Chandra?

No. Hal.

- 2010: The Year We Make Contact

That's what happens when you're made by IBM..

59 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:48:32pm

Coke = Choke

60 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:48:48pm

Hmmm...
Forgive me if it's been posted already.

Victim In Fatal Car Accident Tragically Not Glenn Beck
[Link: www.theonion.com...]

Too far!
/

61 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:48:55pm

re: #32 Stuart Leviton

We've got computers; We're tapping phone line. I know that ain't allowed.

Your fault:

Youtube Video
62 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:49:40pm

re: #20 really grumpy big dog johnson

When's the last time Kilimanjaro was without ice?

better yet... when did they begin to check? Somehow the data doesn't seem like it would go back far enough to even begin to show a statistical model.
In any case, if these researchers can't agree that it's our fault, does this make them quasi Deniers?

63 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:49:40pm

re: #58 hal2010

That's what happens when you're made by IBM..

I'm a Mac...

... and I'm a PC.

64 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:49:52pm

Any thoughts on the new avatar, by the way? Thought I'd try a little something different.

65 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:50:33pm

...and here come the Yankees. This could be quite a finish.

66 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:50:49pm

re: #49 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I'd rather that they focus on less challenging things until the science is a bit more understood. The National Weather Service missed our high temperature today by 17 degrees in the last prediction.

That sort of scares me about this consensus of man-made warming thing...

Well... weather forecast and climate forecast are not identical. One deals with short term local events with much chaos, the other looks at longer range forecast and regional and global averages.

The MET has been in the doghouse in recent years for predicting dry scorching summers based upon their climate models that ended up cool and with historic flooding. They got it wrong three years in a row.

While they can legitimately argue that their longer range forecasts are likely to have less error, it certainly did not help their public image.

67 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:50:53pm

re: #47 Walter L. Newton

You haven't heard?
Obama has to run against #43 one more time in '12.
///

68 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:50:57pm

re: #62 tradewind

better yet... when did they begin to check? Somehow the data doesn't seem like it would go back far enough to even begin to show a statistical model.
In any case, if these researchers can't agree that it's our fault, does this make them quasi Deniers?

It goes back to 1912.

69 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:51:06pm

re: #62 tradewind

In any case, if these researchers can't agree that it's our fault, does this make them quasi Deniers?

Isn't Denial in Egypt? Can we trust them if they aren't even sure where they left the mountain?

70 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:51:08pm

re: #52 jaunte

I'd hate to have to index that.

Job security!

71 Jimash  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:51:14pm

"KATMANDU, Nepal (AP) — Nepal’s cabinet will hold a meeting on Mount Everest to highlight the threat from global warming, which is causing glaciers to melt in the Himalayas, an official said Monday.

The cabinet will meet at the Everest base camp this month, just before an international climate change conference in December in Copenhagen, said Deepak Bohara, the forest and soil conservation minister.

Prime Minister Madhav Kumar Nepal and other cabinet members will fly by plane to the 17,400-foot camp, the starting point for mountaineers trying to climb the world’s highest mountain.

Last month, the cabinet of Maldives donned scuba gear and held an underwater meeting to highlight the threat of global warming to that nation, the world’s lowest."

Its a Tour !

72 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:51:35pm

re: #32 Stuart Leviton

We've got computers; We're tapping phone line. I know that ain't allowed.

We dress live students
We dress live housewives
Put on a suit and a tie.
Changed my hairstyle, so many times now
I don't know what I look like.

73 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:52:23pm

re: #66 Bagua

They really screwed the hurricane predictions to a laughable degree this year.
But I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

74 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:52:41pm

It seems there has been a lot of ice melting lately. Have the oceans risen at all?

75 hal2010  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:52:57pm

re: #63 SteveC

I'm a Mac...

... and I'm a PC.

I'm totally bonkers

Now a thorough recharge, goodnight

76 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:53:33pm

re: #71 Jimash

"The cabinet will meet at the Everest base camp this month

Let 'em meet at Camp 5 (20,000+ feet), that will impress me.

77 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:02pm

re: #74 NJDhockeyfan

It seems there has been a lot of ice melting lately. Have the oceans risen at all?

We offset the rising oceans by pumping seawater into oil wells!

78 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:18pm

re: #69 SteveC

Well, Denial was a river in Egypt, but they're predicting it will dry up completely within the next five years unless we take action now.

79 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:22pm

re: #73 tradewind

They really screwed the hurricane predictions to a laughable degree this year.
But I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

There always is. Funny that.

80 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:33pm

re: #70 oh_dude

I hope they have good security on that thing.

Youtube Video
81 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:48pm

re: #73 tradewind

They really screwed the hurricane predictions to a laughable degree this year.
But I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

After Katrina we were told we would see a dramatic increase of hurricanes because og global warming. When it didn't happen and we actually had mild hurricane seasons we were told it was because of global warming.

Confusing?

82 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:54:52pm

re: #19 oh_dude

I'm just wondering if early man panicked as much as we do when the glaciers started melting and sea levels started so much that what is now the UK became an island.

We've got iPhones and they had stone tools. How they ever survived is beyond me.

I look at it the other way around. Our ancestors could build a fire, make shelter, and feed themselves using primitive materials crafted with exquisite skill and dexterity. How we survive is a mystery, since we lack even the simplest of these skills.

83 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:00pm

re: #73 tradewind

They really screwed the hurricane predictions to a laughable degree this year.
But I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation.

The classical statistician's explanation is that it's caused by the year
in which we have twice as many as predicted.

84 solomonpanting  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:10pm

re: #62 tradewind


In any case, if these researchers can't agree that it's our fault, does this make them quasi Deniers?

If they keep chanting "We're not sure. We're not sure" would that be their quasi motto?

85 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:24pm

re: #77 Mich-again

We offset the rising oceans by pumping seawater into oil wells!

Drill Baby Drill!

86 Jimash  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:41pm

re: #76 SteveC

Climbing Mount Everest is stupid.
I seen it on TV.
At the top they have to step over the frozen bodies of other poor saps who thought it would make them whole.
Might as well just buy that mid-life Harley or whatever turns you on.

87 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:43pm

re: #71 Jimash

Are they going to punish China for creating that blizzard?
They copped to seeding the clouds and causing the snowfall, on purpose.

88 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:55:45pm

re: #84 solomonpanting

If they keep chanting "We're not sure. We're not sure" would that be their quasi motto?

I'm not sure.

89 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:56:04pm

re: #66 Bagua

Well... weather forecast and climate forecast are not identical. One deals with short term local events with much chaos, the other looks at longer range forecast and regional and global averages.

The MET has been in the doghouse in recent years for predicting dry scorching summers based upon their climate models that ended up cool and with historic flooding. They got it wrong three years in a row.

While they can legitimately argue that their longer range forecasts are likely to have less error, it certainly did not help their public image.

I worry about the science of it, plain and simple. There's been too much so-called science lately that started with suppositions, and ended with answers that miraculously supported them.

The money involved in this is staggering. Every market crash in history - combined - might not have the impact upon our lives and our planet as a wrong-headed dogma about warming might.

I want people to be way more than careful about this, and I'm not getting that vibe. There's a vibrant supposition that if we don't do something - anything - soon, that there will be a calamity of previously unexperienced magnitude.

Excuse me...

90 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:56:09pm

re: #22 JohninLondon

No consensus that it is due to man-made global warming ?

But we keep being told that the science is all settled.

Denialists afoot ? How very dare they !!!

Right, because science should be able to positively, absolutely, and without the slighest bit of doubt link each specific local weather occurence to global climate change...

It doesn't work that way, if it did then they would be lieing and we would know that they were lieing. Your condemning and mocking them for being honest about what they don't know, way to show your own ignorance.

91 Van Helsing  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:56:44pm

re: #74 NJDhockeyfan

It seems there has been a lot of ice melting lately. Have the oceans risen at all?

Wiki. It's wikipedia, so it's worth what you paid you for it.

There is an interesting statement that the majority of rise to date is due to the thermal expansion of the water.

I'd of never guessed.

92 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:57:33pm

re: #40 Floral Giraffe

Bah!
Climate change is gonna burn the whole state from end to end.
We've been "managing" it for too long!
Cue: The Doors!

"Hills are filled with fire"

93 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:57:37pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

I look at it the other way around. Our ancestors could build a fire, make shelter, and feed themselves using primitive materials crafted with exquisite skill and dexterity. How we survive is a mystery, since we lack even the simplest of these skills.

Neanderthal brain boxes run considerably higher volume than ours. That
might give them an advantage. And they didn't have cell phones.

94 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:57:58pm

re: #91 Van Helsing

Wiki. It's wikipedia, so it's worth what you paid you for it.

There is an interesting statement that the majority of rise to date is due to the thermal expansion of the water.

I'd of never guessed.

from heating up or freezing?

95 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:58:01pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

I look at it the other way around. Our ancestors could build a fire, make shelter, and feed themselves using primitive materials crafted with exquisite skill and dexterity. How we survive is a mystery, since we lack even the simplest of these skills.

Not really, weather isn't climate, except when it is. The beauty of it is, regardless if its wet or dry, cold or warm, windy or still, it always is an indication of climate change.

We see this all the time with the financial markets, there is an event, if the market goes up it was because the traders were concerned about the event, if it goes down, guess what, it was because traders were concerned about the same event. It always fits... in hindsight.

96 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:58:53pm

re: #82 Guanxi88

I look at it the other way around. Our ancestors could build a fire, make shelter, and feed themselves using primitive materials crafted with exquisite skill and dexterity. How we survive is a mystery, since we lack even the simplest of these skills.

And they had to dodge all those dinosaurs!
//

97 Guanxi88  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:58:54pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

Neanderthal brain boxes run considerably higher volume than ours. That
might give them an advantage. And they didn't have cell phones.

And clumsy folk or slow learners tended to pay for their lack of skill with their lives.

98 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:59:05pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

Neanderthal brain boxes run considerably higher volume than ours. That
might give them an advantage. And they didn't have cell phones.

We have no chance. Cell phones will be the end of civilization. And it won't even be that warm yet.

99 Van Helsing  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 7:59:47pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

from heating up or freezing?

Given the context I'll say heating.

100 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:00:30pm

re: #80 jaunte

HA HA!

Interesting side note: That commercial was filmed at the old MCAS Tustin. Literally 2 miles from my house. There's two of the hangers former blimp hangars on the abandoned base. They are the largest wooden hangars on the west coast still intact.

They still launch blimps from the hangar for baseball games, etc. and often use it as a filming location. I was there when they used it to film a scene for the movie Pearl Harbor

101 Walter L. Newton  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:00:39pm

re: #89 really grumpy big dog Johnson

I worry about the science of it, plain and simple. There's been too much so-called science lately that started with suppositions, and ended with answers that miraculously supported them.

The money involved in this is staggering. Every market crash in history - combined - might not have the impact upon our lives and our planet as a wrong-headed dogma about warming might.

I want people to be way more than careful about this, and I'm not getting that vibe. There's a vibrant supposition that if we don't do something - anything - soon, that there will be a calamity of previously unexperienced magnitude.

Excuse me...

It doesn't matter, the market will survive fine. Just like energy derivatives, carbon derivatives will make many companies new fortunes, and everything will work out for the investors.

102 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:01:09pm

re: #81 NJDhockeyfan

And this year we had no hurricane season.
Confusing?
Only to the mother nature mind reading experts. The rest of us knew that it goes to show you never can tell.

103 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:01:36pm

re: #90 ausador

Right, because science should be able to positively, absolutely, and without the slighest bit of doubt link each specific local weather occurence to global climate change...

It doesn't work that way, if it did then they would be lieing and we would know that they were lieing. Your condemning and mocking them for being honest about what they don't know, way to show your own ignorance.

Except that in the case of the MET, one of the major player in Climate Science, they bring the mockery on themselves by making the predictions and clearly stating that they are based upon the same climate change models they are using to predict the weather 50-100 years out.

They don't adequately explain their position or the accuracy limitations of their predictions. So they get raked over.

104 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:01:47pm

re: #102 tradewind

And this year we had no hurricane season.
Confusing?
Only to the mother nature mind reading experts. The rest of us knew that it goes to show you never can tell.

We had no hurricane season because of the warming. Anyone can figure that out.

105 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:02:00pm

re: #100 oh_dude

HA HA!

Interesting side note: That commercial was filmed at the old MCAS Tustin. Literally 2 miles from my house. There's two of the hangers former blimp hangars on the abandoned base. They are the largest wooden hangars on the west coast still intact.

They still launch blimps from the hangar for baseball games, etc. and often use it as a filming location. I was there when they used it to film a scene for the movie Pearl Harbor

Very cool place!
[Link: www.flickr.com...]

106 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:02:01pm

re: #93 Decatur Deb

Neanderthal brain boxes run considerably higher volume than ours. That might give them an advantage. And they didn't have cell phones.

They never befriended dogs. Maybe thats why they went extinct and we didn't.

107 really grumpy big dog Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:02:26pm

Sleep tight and toss the down comforters. It might help!

108 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:02:49pm

re: #57 MandyManners

Oh. No.

Ono

109 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:03:12pm

re: #104 really grumpy big dog Johnson

You're probably safe if you just say ' because of the warming' to explain every weather phenomenon. You'll have all the settled science on your side.

110 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:03:15pm

re: #107 really grumpy big dog Johnson

Sleep tight and toss the down comforters. It might help!

When I first read that I thought it said toss down the comforters. I'm tossing a few down!

111 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:03:36pm

re: #91 Van Helsing

Wiki. It's wikipedia, so it's worth what you paid you for it.

There is an interesting statement that the majority of rise to date is due to the thermal expansion of the water.

I'd of never guessed.

Wiki Answers, FWIW

112 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:03:48pm

America's energy policy dilemma


These are two snapshots - a tale of two oils - from the polarised debate in America over whether and how to tackle climate change.

The battle-lines are not straightforward.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

113 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:05:40pm

re: #90 ausador

Please pardon my ignorance. I only got to M Sc level.

I was not criticising them - I applaud their open minds. A refreshing change from the usual lock-down debate.

114 Bob  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:05:47pm

Kilimanjaro's glacier is melting due to deforestation at the base of the mountain, not because of global warming.

115 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:06:28pm

re: #105 jaunte

Very cool. There were rumors that they were going to turn one of the hangars into a military museum, but that never materialized. The base was turned over to the City of Tustin about 8 years ago. I can still remember lots of USMC Blackhawks flying in and out 24/7.

Now it's surrounded by yet another shopping/entertainment center (just what we needed)

116 Van Helsing  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:06:39pm

re: #111 cliffster

Thanks.
I remember doing that experiment in grade school.

They actually let us play with with Bunsen burners and stuff way back in the Dark Ages.

I can only imagine the horror of that today.

117 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:06:54pm

re: #114 Bob


Exactly.

118 Decatur Deb  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:07:44pm

Later than I thought. Must sleep.

119 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:07:47pm

re: #50 Van Helsing
From your link... this is just a bummer for the shortsightedness of the way it's not being used for any helpful purpose...
[Link: www.nybooks.com...]

120 Kragar  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:07:52pm

Man, wasn't able to get in to LGF at all today from work. Kept getting operation aborted when I tried to get in and couldn't connect.

121 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:08:04pm

re: #94 NJDhockeyfan

from heating up or freezing?

Water is at its most dense at 4 degrees Celsius. So yes, heating is the correct answer.

122 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:06pm

re: #114 Bob
And that works how?

123 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:15pm

re: #121 bosforus

Water is at its most dense at 4 degrees Celsius. So yes, heating is the correct answer.

Then explain that exploded water bottle in my freezer.

124 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:18pm

re: #112 Jimmah

Ah yes, those ignorant, anti-science Americans.

But wait, this appeared today in the British press:

Britons least concerned about Climate Change

It would seem Americans are more concerned about Climate Change that those superior Brits at the al-Beeb

125 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:24pm

re: #118 Decatur Deb

Later than I thought. Must sleep.

May pleasant dreams haunt your night.

126 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:28pm

re: #96 NJDhockeyfan

And they had to dodge all those dinosaurs!
//

Youtube Video
127 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:40pm

re: #120 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They're Watching You.

128 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:09:46pm

re: #123 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain that exploded water bottle in my freezer.

It got less dense (it expanded). :)

129 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:10:14pm

Must be the deforestation shrinking Lake Chad, too.
[Link: earthshots.usgs.gov...]

130 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:10:23pm

re: #114 Bob

Kilimanjaro's glacier is melting due to deforestation at the base of the mountain, not because of global warming.

Once can't make such a definitive statement when the facts are unclear.

131 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:10:48pm

re: #114 Bob

Kilimanjaro's glacier is melting due to deforestation at the base of the mountain, not because of global warming.

Another debunked Heartland Institute talking point rears it's ugly head.

[Link: www.realclimate.org...]

132 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11:05pm

re: #123 NJDhockeyfan

Then explain that exploded water bottle in my freezer.

Any colder than 4 Celsius and water expands (dramatically so when it freezes, hence ice floats). Any warmer than 4 Celsius and water will also expand, though very minutely (unless we're talking trillions of gallons of water).

133 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11:38pm

Santa Cruz scientists to drill through Antarctic ice to hidden lakes

SANTA CRUZ -- The last unexplored water environment on Earth is about to be explored.

In two years, glaciologist Slawek Tulaczyk and two dozen explorers will lug 500,000 pounds of drilling equipment to Antarctica and pierce snow-dusted ice caps to uncover virgin water half a mile below.

It will be the first time anyone has drilled below the western Antarctic ice sheet to these sub-glacial lakes, which scientists think are teeming with robust microbes sheltered from the sun for 36 million years.

"It's just like being on another planet," Tulaczyk said.

Tulaczyk and his UC Santa Cruz research team will submerge cameras and pressure-sensitive monitors into hidden lakes that buoy fragmented ice sheets out to sea. For four months, they will measure how quickly ice caps are breaking apart and dumping into the ocean, work funded by a recent $10 million stimulus grant from the National Science Foundation.

It's bonus for the climate change research team that they will dip into waters never seen by mankind.

"Finding new microbial life would be amazing," Tulaczyk said.

134 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11:43pm

re: #112 Jimmah

America's energy policy dilemma

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Ethical Man: Green revolution in Texas

Check out the size of that wind turbine at the end of the clip.

Texas sized.

135 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:11:58pm

re: #25 Bagua

They seem unsure:

There was no presence of the bubbles in the deeper layers of the cores, Dr. Thompson said.

If his dating of the ice core layers is accurate, surface melting like that seen in recent years has not occurred over the last 11,700 years.

But Georg Kaser, a glaciologist at the Institute for Geography of the University of Innsbruck in Austria, said that the ice measured was only a few hundred years old and that it had come and gone over centuries.

One scientist thinks the ice is almost 12,000 years old, the other thinks the ice is only a few hundred years old.

Here is a pertinent excerpt from another, much more informative American Scientist article, actually co-written by Georg Kaser himself:

The fact that the loss of ice on Mount Kilimanjaro cannot be used as proof of global warming does not mean that the Earth is not warming. There is ample and conclusive evidence that Earth's average temperature has increased in the past 100 years, and the decline of mid- and high-latitude glaciers is a major piece of evidence. But the special conditions on Kilimanjaro make it unlike the higher-latitude mountains, whose glaciers are shrinking because of rising atmospheric temperatures. Mass- and energy-balance considerations and the shapes of features all point in the same direction, suggesting an insignificant role for atmospheric temperature in the fluctuations of Kilimanjaro's ice.

It is possible, though, that there is an indirect connection between the accumulation of greenhouse gases and Kilimanjaro's disappearing ice: There is strong evidence of an association over the past 200 years or so between Indian Ocean surface temperatures and the atmospheric circulation and precipitation patterns that either feed or starve the ice on Kilimanjaro. These patterns have been starving the ice since the late 19th century—or perhaps it would be more accurate to say simply reversing the binge of ice growth in the third quarter of the 19th century. Any contribution of rising greenhouse gases to this circulation pattern necessarily emerged only in the last few decades; hence it is responsible for at most a fraction of the recent decline in ice and a much smaller fraction of the total decline.

re: #34 Bagua

Don't worry, before the night is out we will hear that there is certainty. One of the scientists will be revealed as an immoral liar who smokes cigarettes and drives an SUV.

/

Or, you might learn that the very scientist you hang your hopes on has a much more nuance and informed and honest understanding of the issue than your narrow focus necessarily allows.

136 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:12:41pm

re: #114 Bob

re: #117 JohninLondon

Ghostrider, this is Voodoo One, we've got not one, but TWO, repeat TWO bogies up here. Closing fast.

137 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:14:58pm

re: #86 Jimash
Well, it worked for Eli Stone.
///

138 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:15:23pm

re: #124 Bagua

Ah yes, those ignorant, anti-science Americans.

But wait, this appeared today in the British press:

Britons least concerned about Climate Change

It would seem Americans are more concerned about Climate Change that those superior Brits at the al-Beeb

It would seem that you've linked back to this thread, bagster.

Anyway - early night for me - busy day ahead.

Night folks :)

139 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:17:11pm

re: #135 goddamnedfrank

Or, you might learn that the very scientist you hang your hopes on has a much more nuance and informed and honest understanding of the issue than your narrow focus necessarily allows.

I don't "hang any hopes" nor do I have a "narrow focus". I am willing to accept that the Kililimanjaro melting is due to the warming if that is where the science leads.

There has been warming this century and there has been much glacial melting observed. The point is what is actually happening at Kilimanjaro, it may or may not have a bearing on the larger picture.

140 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:17:59pm

re: #133 NJDhockeyfan

It's bonus for the climate change research team that they will dip into waters never seen by mankind.

"Finding new microbial life would be amazing," Tulaczyk said.

Careful there. It might be bad to release some virus living in the microbes there that has been evolving for 36 million years.

141 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:18:09pm

Sidenote:
The difference in water densities due to temperature difference is also the reason water can sustain aquatic life. Interesting stuff when you start to study it a little bit. The reason? Water is the only liquid that floats in its solid form. Helps keeps lakes "alive" during the winter if you know what I mean.

142 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:18:39pm

re: #138 Jimmah

It would seem that you've linked back to this thread, bagster.

Anyway - early night for me - busy day ahead.

Night folks :)

Yes, I linked to this article earlier Jimmahster, it would seem relevant to the current topic. How many times have you linked to the same "butthurt" video?

143 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:18:41pm

Yankees down by 3, 9th inning, they have 2 on base, no outs, Jeter up...exciting baseball.

144 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:19:35pm

re: #124 Bagua

Here's the link:

Just fifteen per cent of people in Britain worry about climate change and how the world responds to the problem, the lowest figure for any of the 12 countries surveyed. The figure is down from 26 per cent last year. In the US 18 per cent of people said global warming was one of their biggest concerns followed by 22 per cent in Australia.


[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
But 3% doesn't seem like a big difference.

145 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:20:23pm

re: #16 MandyManners
I love that song, but if you really want to hear it, listen to the version by an a cappella group called Straight No Chaser.
Unbelievable.

146 oh_dude  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:20:34pm

re: #143 NJDhockeyfan

Phils just need a couple of well-placed photon torpedoes.

147 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:20:49pm

re: #113 JohninLondon

Please pardon my ignorance. I only got to M Sc level.

I was not criticising them - I applaud their open minds. A refreshing change from the usual lock-down debate.

Gahhh, you'll have to forgive me, I'm not usually this cross so easily but I split a tooth this morning and it is driving me to distraction. I don't get to see the dentist until 3:00pm tomorrow, in the mean time I have to suffer with it.

Anyway, excuses aside I apologize, you didn't say anything to warrant a verbal assault, I overreacted.

(now to go dose myself with "Anbesol" again and try to get some sleep.)

148 Jimash  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21:04pm

re: #137 tradewind

Did it really.
I wouldn't know. I never watch that stuff.
Did it de-Autize him ?
No frostbite ?
No stumbling over frozen bodies of reckless japanese ?
What an absolute joy that trip must be.
For the money you could go to St Maarten and swim in pelican bay like a human being.

149 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:21:18pm

re: #142 Bagua

Yes, I linked to this article earlier Jimmahster, it would seem relevant to the current topic. How many times have you linked to the same "butthurt" video?

Oh dear, my apologies for the unwarrented snark, I thought you were scolding me for repeating my earlier link. I really did link back to this post.

I eat my hat master Jimmah-ski.

150 soxfan4life  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:22:43pm

re: #2 PaxAmericana

But...Global Climate Change is a sham?

/

No it isn't, but the plans to combat it are.

151 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:23:09pm

re: #149 Bagua

Oh dear, my apologies for the unwarrented snark, I thought you were scolding me for repeating my earlier link. I really did link back to this post.

I eat my hat master Jimmah-ski.

D'oh!

/

152 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:24:30pm

re: #142 Bagua

Yes, I linked to this article earlier Jimmahster, it would seem relevant to the current topic. How many times have you linked to the same "butthurt" video?

Facepalm. Try clicking on the link - see what happens, bagua ;-)

153 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:24:48pm

re: #148 Jimash
Mountains are good for skiing in winter and watching out the window any other time. I'm not big on the climbing part myself, so yeah.
Trunk Bay, though. Better snorkeling and you don't even have to leave U.S. territory.

154 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:24:55pm

re: #149 Bagua

Oh dear, my apologies for the unwarrented snark, I thought you were scolding me for repeating my earlier link. I really did link back to this post.

I eat my hat master Jimmah-ski.

cool. Night!

155 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:25:01pm

re: #142 Bagua

Yes, I linked to this article earlier Jimmahster, it would seem relevant to the current topic. How many times have you linked to the same "butthurt" video?

Not so many, actually. We have 5 butthurt videos and about a thousand or so views came from here. The other 6000 odd have come from all over. John Cole featured our 'massive butthurt' warning on the day Obama won the Nobel, hee.

156 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:25:40pm

re: #144 jaunte

Here's the link:


[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
But 3% doesn't seem like a big difference.

Not a huge difference, but what is significant is that this is a big drop from the previous numbers. Brits were previously more concerned with Climate Change than the Yanks.

The point is the political disconnect, were the politicians are giving high priority to an issue that is a low priority for the voters. This is separate from the question of wether it is correct to be more or less concerned.

157 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:26:46pm

re: #143 NJDhockeyfan
Why is anyone playing baseball in freaking November???

158 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:27:12pm

Ok - bedtime for real now :)

Youtube Video
159 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:27:22pm

re: #155 iceweasel

Not so many, actually. We have 5 butthurt videos and about a thousand or so views came from here. The other 6000 odd have come from all over. John Cole featured our 'massive butthurt' warning on the day Obama won the Nobel, hee.

Yes, the butthurt videos are a source of unending amusement and a treasure for future generations.

160 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:27:30pm

re: #157 tradewind

Why is anyone playing baseball in freaking November???

Why not? Baseball rocks.

161 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:27:46pm

re: #139 Bagua

Occam's Razor suggests that the simplest answer is often the correct one.

And normal principles of troubleshooting a system are to ask - "What has changed".

If the ice on Mt K has been melting for decades, and significant de-forestation has been going on for decades, that looks a plausible explanation. Not definite, sure - but no dismissable either.

Per contra, temperatures have not been rising significantly for decades.

...

I heard another alarmist report on the BBC today about glaciers melting in the Himalayas. Breathless commentary about melting ice, very heavy this month compared with March.

Hello ??? October is the end of the monsoon season over there, after months of heat. Last time I trekked in Nepal it was blinding hot. In October, even at 3 to 4000 metres. Needed an umbrella to shield from the burning sun.

162 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:28:24pm

re: #157 tradewind

Why is anyone playing baseball in freaking November???

Whatever the reason is, they're going to keep doing it. Teixeira struck out in bottom of the ninth with A-Rod on deck. Fun stuff.

163 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:28:25pm

re: #156 Bagua

It's too bad the article has no link to the study itself.
Here it is:
[Link: www.hsbc.com...]

164 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:28:26pm

re: #160 NJDhockeyfan

Why not? Baseball rocks.

Game 1 1979 World Series was delayed two days because of snow in Pittsburgh.

165 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:29:33pm

re: #163 jaunte

It's too bad the article has no link to the study itself.
Here it is:
[Link: www.hsbc.com...]

HSBC?

166 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:30:20pm

re: #159 Bagua

Yes, the butthurt videos are a source of unending amusement and a treasure for future generations.

Well, maybe for the more juvenile generations. :)

I'm off now as well. Good night!

Warning: may contain Obama.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

167 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:30:42pm

re: #165 Gus 802

"Biggus Bankus."

168 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:31:10pm

re: #164 SteveC

Game 1 1979 World Series was delayed two days because of snow in Pittsburgh.

And no snow in Philly in 2009.

This confirms the existence of man-made global warming.
//

169 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:31:33pm

re: #156 Bagua


Maybe people in Britain are sick of being force-fed man-made global warming by the BBC, day in, day out. The Beeb is far too preachy these days, nary any space for scepticism.

170 Jimash  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:31:38pm

re: #153 tradewind

I can't really snorkel, but Mullet Bay on ST. Maarten is the best swimming
I ever encountered. Like a half mile bathtub.
Rooms 50 feet from the beach.
Best business weekend I ever spent.

171 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:31:40pm

re: #167 jaunte

"Biggus Bankus."

Be on the lookout for possible Chinese interests. That is, Kyoto Treaty, et al.

//

172 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:31:56pm

It's a conspiracy. Glen Beck needs to cover this. We need to know how Algore pulled this off!

/

173 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:32:07pm

re: #161 JohninLondon

Occam's Razor suggests that the simplest answer is often the correct one.
[...]

Yes I know about Occam's Razor. Yet with complex issues such as this I prefer the complexity of solid research as it tends to be far superior to simplistic explanations that "make sense".

174 Kragar  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:32:35pm

re: #127 tradewind

They're Watching You.

Nope. Something on the page wasn't being allowed to load. Seen the same error crop up before on other web pages, usually due to some background ad failing to load.

175 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:32:51pm

re: #173 Bagua

I got this 4 bladed razor.. ;)

176 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:32:58pm

re: #168 NJDhockeyfan

And no snow in Philly in 2009.

This confirms the existence of man-made global warming.
//

Rainouts! Liquid Snow!

//How dare you speak against the Baseball gods?!?!?!

177 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:33:05pm

In a related story, more disappointment as carbon continues to make the news...
[Link: www.washingtonexaminer.com...]

178 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:33:17pm
re: #171 Gus 802
Tai-Pan!

M K T Cheung, GBS, OBE
Age 61. A non-executive Director since 1 February 2009. A non-executive director of Hang Seng Bank Limited, HKR International Limited, Hong Kong Exchanges and Clearing Limited and Sun Hung Kai Properties Limited.

V H C Cheng, GBS, OBE
Age 61. Chairman of The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited.
[Link: www.hsbc.com...]

179 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:33:26pm

Lava Lamp MIDI controller

Youtube Video
180 JohninLondon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:33:32pm

re: #173 Bagua

There is a clear distinction between simple and simplistic.

A simple explanation is not necessarily simplistic.

181 SteveC  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:34:36pm

re: #127 tradewind

They're Watching You.

That's the money you could be saving with GIECO

182 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:35:10pm

re: #141 bosforus

Water is the only liquid that floats in its solid form.

Water is (very) rare in this regard, but not quite unique:

Gallium, slicon, germanium and bismuth are all less dense in solid than in liquid phase.

183 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:35:40pm

re: #178 jaunte

M K T Cheung, GBS, OBE
Age 61. A non-executive Director since 1 February 2009. A non-executive director of Hang Seng Bank Limited, HKR International Limited, Hong Kong Exchanges and Clearing Limited and Sun Hung Kai Properties Limited.

V H C Cheng, GBS, OBE
Age 61. Chairman of The Hongkong and Shanghai Banking Corporation Limited.
[Link: www.hsbc.com...]

HSBC Gets Back In Touch With Its Roots
Vidya Ram, 03.10.08, 12:30 PM ET

LONDON -

HSBC is hoping to do what no non-Chinese bank has done before: raise its stake in China's Bank of Communications above the 20.0% permitted by regulations. This is the latest signal that British bank is moving firmly back to emerging markets in Asia and the Middle East.

Shares in HSBC (nyse: HBC - news - people ) soared by 2.2%, or 17 pence, to 776 pence in morning trading in London on hopes that the bank would soon be able to raise its stake in China's fifth largest bank.

SNIP

Looks like we got ourselves a climate-change-poll-cornspiracy! /

184 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:36:39pm

re: #170 Jimash

Trunk Bay, rooms fifty feet out over the water, on stilts.
Hell, let's face it. Practically any Caribbean beach beats the alternative.

185 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:37:17pm

re: #181 SteveC
You can't escape the Lizard.

186 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:37:58pm

I like carbon dioxide. It makes beer taste good.

187 Daniel Ballard  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:38:24pm

re: #186 Racer X

Now that's carbon capture.

188 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:38:29pm

re: #180 JohninLondon

There is a clear distinction between simple and simplistic.

A simple explanation is not necessarily simplistic.

Yes I know that, but you seem motivated to accept the explanation that fits your view that this is not due to Global Warming. And you and Bob seem sure of this.

The article indicates that there is evidence that it may well be because of the warming. As well as citing a researcher who thinks it isn't.

Occam's Razzor is dulled by bias.

189 tradewind  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:39:28pm

re: #162 cliffster
It's supposed to be the Boys of Summer, not the Boys of Post-Halloween.
Just sayin'.
:)

190 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:39:56pm

Global warming melts ice, melting ice stops global warming, must be some sort of cycle.

Melting ice may slow global warming

Collapsing antarctic ice sheets, which have become potent symbols of global warming, may actually turn out to help in the battle against climate change and soaring carbon emissions.

Professor Rob Raiswell, a geologist at the University of Leeds, says that as the sheets break off the ice covering the continent, floating icebergs are produced that gouge minerals from the bedrock as they make their way to the sea. Raiswell believes that the accumulated frozen mud could breathe life into the icy waters around Antarctica, triggering a large, natural removal of carbon dioxide from the atmosphere.

And as rising temperatures cause the ice sheets to break up faster, creating more icebergs, the amount of carbon dioxide removed will also rise. Raiswell says: ' It won't solve the problem, but it might buy us some time.'

As the icebergs drift northwards, they sprinkle the minerals through the ocean. Among these minerals, Raiswell's research shows, are iron compounds that can fertilise large-scale growth of photosynthetic plankton, which take in carbon dioxide from the air as they flourish.

According to his calculations, melting Antarctic icebergs already deposit up to 120,000 tonnes of this 'bioavailable' iron into the Southern Ocean each year, enough to grow sufficient plankton to remove some 2.6 billion tonnes of carbon dioxide, equivalent to the annual carbon pollution of India and Japan. A 1 per cent increase in the number of icebergs in the Southern Ocean could remove an extra 26 million tonnes of CO2, equivalent to the annual emissions of Croatia.

191 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:41:46pm

re: #189 tradewind

It's supposed to be the Boys of Summer, not the Boys of Post-Halloween.
Just sayin'.
:)

And while we're at it, they're going later now, and playing pretty much every day. Seems like they used to play a game every other day, and still be done in early October. Maybe we're crazy. They've been playing 162 games per season for decades.

192 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:42:26pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

Global warming melts ice, melting ice stops global warming, must be some sort of cycle.

Melting ice may slow global warming

Eh...canceling out Croatia? That's nothing.

193 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:43:12pm

"I mean, if the Republicans were running in Afghanistan, they'd be running on the Taliban ticket as far as I can see."

Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va)

194 Spare O'Lake  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:43:18pm

Car bun die ox-eyed
Sea owe, too
What her
Eh, itch to owe

195 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:43:59pm

re: #180 JohninLondon

There is a clear distinction between simple and simplistic.

A simple explanation is not necessarily simplistic.

Also, consider that as of today, Occam's Razor favours the AGW hypothesis as it includes a mechanism. So if you are taking the position of a sceptic, you'd best not use this argument as it is against you.

196 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:46:02pm

re: #193 NJDhockeyfan

"I mean, if the Republicans were running in Afghanistan, they'd be running on the Taliban ticket as far as I can see."

Rep. Jim Moran (D-Va)

He can join Grayson of Florida on the List of Democratic Congressional Assholes. (It's a long list.)

197 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:46:25pm

re: #193 NJDhockeyfan

"I mean, if the Republicans were running in Afghanistan, they'd be running on the Taliban ticket as far as I can see."

Rep. Jim Moraon (D-Va)

I think you misspelled the guy's name. fixed it for you.

198 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:46:58pm

re: #191 cliffster

Maybe we're crazy. They've been playing 162 games per season for decades.

Two other things have extended the season beyond the 162 game schedule. First, there used to be 2 rounds of playoffs. A 5-game series for the League Championship, then the 7-game World Series. Now there are 3 rounds, with the introduction of the third divisions in each league and the wild card team. Second, the networks have stepped in to get rid of the game every day pace and schedule the games around other programming. The slower schedule in the playoffs changes the whole competition. To get to the playoffs, a team needs 5 starters. Once they are there, they can get by with 3 or 4 what with all the rest days.

199 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:46:58pm

re: #196 Dark_Falcon

He can join Grayson of Florida on the List of Democratic Congressional Assholes. (It's a long list.)

Unclinch that fist, DF, they are reaching across the aisle.

200 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:47:48pm

Birthday Clock

It tells you how many hours and how many seconds you have been alive on this earth and when you were probably conceived. How cool is that?

Other fun info as well.

201 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:48:00pm

re: #199 cliffster

Unclinch that fist, DF, they are reaching across the aisle.

Just verifying--you forgot the sarc tag, right?

202 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:48:34pm

re: #199 cliffster

Unclinch that fist, DF, they are reaching across the aisle.

... and flipping you the bird while trying to steal your wallet.

203 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:49:13pm

re: #201 BryanS

Just verifying--you forgot the sarc tag, right?

C'mon, man!

204 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:49:21pm

re: #161 JohninLondon

Simplicity. Facts > Occam's Razor. ;)

re: #114 Bob
re: #117 JohninLondon

Linky?

205 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:49:47pm

Hmm, just eyeballed this while at the NY Times:

Creationism, Minus a Young Earth, Emerges in the Islamic World

AMHERST, Mass. — Creationism is growing in the Muslim world, from Turkey to Pakistan to Indonesia, international academics said last month as they gathered here to discuss the topic.

But, they said, young-Earth creationists, who believe God created the universe, Earth and life just a few thousand years ago, are rare, if not nonexistent.

One reason is that although the Koran, the holy text of Islam, says the universe was created in six days, the next line adds that a day, in this instance, is metaphorical: “a thousand years of your reckoning.”

By contrast, some Christian creationists find in the Bible a strict chronology that requires a 6,000-year-old Earth and thus object not only to evolution but also to much of modern geology and cosmology, which say the Earth and the universe are billions of years old.

SNIP

206 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:50:40pm

re: #182 goddamnedfrank

Water is (very) rare in this regard, but not quite unique:

Gallium, slicon, germanium and bismuth are all less dense in solid than in liquid phase.

Ah, thank you! I questioned myself as I typed.

207 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:51:30pm

re: #202 Racer X

... and flipping you the bird while trying to steal your wallet.

I was going to say it but you beat me to it.

208 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:53:15pm

re: #202 Racer X

... and flipping you the bird while trying to steal your wallet.

Reminds of a great Deep Thought by Jack Handey:
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

209 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:55:56pm

re: #200 Racer X

Birthday Clock

It tells you how many hours and how many seconds you have been alive on this earth and when you were probably conceived. How cool is that?

Other fun info as well.

Top songs of 1961

Tossin' and Turnin' by Bobby Lewis
Big Bad John by Jimmy Dean
Runaway by Del Shannon
Wonderland By Night by Bert Kaempfert
Pony Time by Chubby Checker
The Lion Sleeps Tonight by Tokens
Blue Moon by Marcels
Take Good Care of My Baby by Bobby Vee
Calcutta by Lawrence Welk
Runaround Sue by Dion

210 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:56:03pm

re: #208 bosforus

Reminds of a great Deep Thought by Jack Handey:
Consider the daffodil. And while you're doing that, I'll be over here, looking through your stuff.

That's a good one. I always looked forward to those on SNL. My favorite one is :

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

211 Vicious Babushka  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:56:42pm

re: #191 cliffster

And while we're at it, they're going later now, and playing pretty much every day. Seems like they used to play a game every other day, and still be done in early October. Maybe we're crazy. They've been playing 162 games per season for decades.

There's interleague play now during the regular season. And all these expansion teams.

212 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:57:26pm

THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

This one is a little different...
Two Different Versions! ... Two Different Morals!

OLD VERSION: The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the ant is warm and well fed.

The grasshopper has no food or shelter, so he dies out in the cold.

MORAL OF THE STORY: Be responsible for yourself

213 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:57:30pm

re: #210 BryanS

That's a good one. I always looked forward to those on SNL. My favorite one is :

If a kid asks where rain comes from, I think a cute thing to tell him is "God is crying." And if he asks why God is crying, another cute thing to tell him is "Probably because of something you did."

We could probably go all day with these but here's two of my favorites:
Is there anything more beautiful than a beautiful, beautiful flamingo,
flying across in front of a beautiful sunset? And he's carrying a
beautiful rose in his beak, and also he's carrying a very beautiful
painting with his feet. And also, you're drunk.

and

One thing kids like is to be tricked. For instance, I was going
to take my nephew to Disneyland, but instead I drove him to an old
burned-out warehouse. "Oh no," I said, "Disneyland burned down."
He cried and cried, but I think that deep down he thought it was a
pretty good joke. I started to drive over to the real Disneyland, but
decided to go home instead.

214 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:59:08pm

THE ANT AND THE GRASSHOPPER

MODERN VERSION:

The ant works hard in the withering heat all summer long, building his house and laying up supplies for the winter.

The grasshopper thinks the ant is a fool and laughs and dances and plays the summer away.

Come winter, the shivering grasshopper calls a press conference and demands to know why the ant should be allowed to be warm and well fed while others are cold and starving.

CBS, NBC , PBS, CNN, and ABC show up to provide pictures of the shiveringgrasshopper next to a video of the ant in his comfortable home with a table filled with food. America is stunned by the sharp contrast.

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

Kermit the Frog appears on Oprah with the grasshopper and everybody cries when they sing, 'It's Not Easy Being Green.'

Acorn stages a demonstration in front of the ant 's house where the news stations film the group singing, 'We shall overcome.' Rev. Jeremiah Wright then has the group curse God for the grasshopper's! sake.

Nancy Pelosi & Harry Reid exclaim in an interview with Larry King that the ant has gotten rich off the back of the grasshopper, and both call for an immediate tax hike on the ant to make him pay his fair share.

Finally, the EEOC drafts the Economic Equity & Anti-Grasshopper Act retroactive to the beginning of the summer.

The ant is fined for failing to hire a proportionate number of green bugs and, having nothing left to pay his retroactive taxes, his home is confiscated by the Government Green Czar.

The story ends as we see the grasshopper finishing up the last bits of the ants food while the government house he is in, which just happens to be the ant's old house, crumbles around him because he doesn't maintain it.

The ant has disappeared in the snow.

The grasshopper is found dead in a drug related incident and the house, now abandoned, is taken over by a gang of spiders who terrorize the once peaceful neighborhood.


MORAL OF THE STORY: Be careful how you vote in 2010

215 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 8:59:59pm

re: #213 bosforus


Heh...both good.

216 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:01:23pm

US Offers Taliban 6 Provinces for 8 Bases

ISLAMABAD – The emboldened Taliban movement in Afghanistan turned down an American offer of power-sharing in exchange for accepting the presence of foreign troops, Afghan government sources confirmed.

"US negotiators had offered the Taliban leadership through Mullah Wakil Ahmed Mutawakkil (former Taliban foreign minister) that if they accept the presence of NATO troops in Afghanistan, they would be given the governorship of six provinces in the south and northeast," a senior Afghan Foreign Ministry official told IslamOnline.net requesting anonymity for not being authorized to talk about the sensitive issue with the media.

He said the talks, brokered by Saudi Arabia and Turkey, continued for weeks at different locations including the Afghan capital Kabul.

Saudi Arabia, along with Pakistan and the United Arab Emirates, were the only states to recognize the Taliban regime which ruled Afghanistan from 1996 to 2001.

Turkish Prime Minister Reccap Erodgan has reportedly been active in brokering talks between the two sides.

His emissaries are in contact with Hizb-e-Islami (of former prime minister Gulbadin Hikmatyar) too because he is an important factor in northeastern Afghanistan."

A Taliban spokesman admitted indirect talks with the US.

You fucking kidding me?

217 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:02:03pm

re: #214 Racer X

How can this be, that in a country of such wealth, this poor grasshopper is allowed to suffer so?

In a perfect democracy, children would be taught to watch for and squash this sort of quasi-logic starting in elementary school.

218 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:02:16pm

re: #216 NJDhockeyfan

You're response to that matched my own.

219 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:02:55pm

Land for peace. Good luck with that.

220 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:03:11pm

re: #214 Racer X

I'll have to pass that on the email chain. I'll share this one I got sent a bit ago:

Subject: Hot Air

A woman in a hot-air balloon realized she was lost. She lowered her
altitude and spotted a man in a boat below. She shouted to him, "Excuse
me, can you help me? I promised a friend I would meet him an hour ago,
but I don't know where I am."

The man consulted his portable GPS and replied, "You're in a hot air
balloon, approximately 30 feet above a ground elevation of 2,346 feet
above sea level. You are at 31 degrees, 14.97 minutes north latitude and
100 degrees, 49.09 minutes west longitude.

"She rolled her eyes and said, "You must be a Republican."

"I am," replied the man. "How did you know?"

"Well," answered the balloonist, "everything you told me is technically
correct. But I have no idea what to do with your information, and I'm
still lost. Frankly, you've not been much help to me."

The man smiled and responded, "You must be an Obama Democrat."

"I am," replied the balloonist. "How did you know?"

"Well," said the man, "you don't know where you are or where you are
going. You've risen to where you are, due to a large quantity of hot
air. You made a promise you have no idea how to keep, and you expect me
to solve your problem. You're in exactly the same position you were in
before we met, but somehow, now it's my fault."

221 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:04:25pm

re: #219 Mich-again

Land for peace. Good luck with that.

It's working in the Middle East :/)

222 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:04:34pm

re: #216 NJDhockeyfan

US Offers Taliban 6 Provinces for 8 Bases

You fucking kidding me?



"The US Embassy in Kabul denied any such talks."

223 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:05:01pm

Talking to the Taliban

The 3rd Brigade has received informal guidance on how to deal with enemy leaders in the form of "the three Ds": define, dialogue, and desist. Soldiers define a Taliban member's "significance" in terms of his reach and influence. "You know, who is this guy?" Haight said. Then, dialogue, so "in the future, [you] gain some guy's trust." Finally, desist. "Obviously, try to get him to commit to the process with a locally arranged reduction in violence."

Sherman notes that soldiers have attempted this technique with low-level local Taliban. In the future, he thinks, military forces will focus on "reintegrating" tactical and operational fighters. But the Afghan government, he says, will "[decide] on reconciliation with strategic and political leaders.

"
[Link: www.foreignpolicy.com...]

224 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:05:26pm

re: #214 Racer X

Very good. and very true in its depiction of the left. They look at those who work as an ATM. I say that we retain their card and then spit them back a denial note in the form of lost House and Senate seats next year.

225 bosforus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:06:13pm

If I ever get real rich, I hope I'm not real mean to poor people, like I am now.
g'night!

226 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:06:41pm

A guy is driving around the back woods of Montana and he sees a sign in front of a broken down shanty-style house: 'Talking Dog For Sale ' He rings the bell and the owner appears and tells him the dog is in the backyard.

The guy goes into the backyard and sees a nice looking Labrador retriever sitting there.

'You talk?' he asks.

'Yep,' the Lab replies.

After the guy recovers from the shock of hearing a dog talk, he says 'So, what's your story?'

The Lab looks up and says, 'Well, I discovered that I could talk when I was pretty young. I wanted to help the government, so I told the CIA. In no time at all they had me jetting from country to country, sitting in rooms with spies and world leaders, because no one figured a dog would be eavesdropping.'

'I was one of their most valuable spies for eight years running. But the jetting around really tired me out, and I knew I wasn't getting any younger so I decided to settle down. I signed up for a job at the airport to do some undercover security, wandering near suspicious characters and listening in. I uncovered some incredible dealings and was awarded a batch of medals.' 'I got married, had a mess of puppies, and now I'm just retired.'

The guy is amazed. He goes back in and asks the owner what he wants for the dog.

'Ten dollars,' the guy says.

'Ten dollars? This dog is amazing! Why on earth are you selling him so cheap?'
-

-

-

-
'Because he's a liar. He never did any of that shit.

227 MinisterO  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:07:00pm

re: #220 BryanS

They say he made it himself... from a shorter joke.

228 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:07:29pm

re: #222 Gus 802

But of course that is exactly what the spokesperson for the embassy would say now isn't it.

(BTW, I only posted that because I read a while back that its one of the various forms of the ad hominen argument and I was waiting for the right chance to use it. :-) )

229 gaw  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:08:17pm

Sublimation.

230 Mich-again  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:08:34pm

re: #229 gaw

Sublimation.

Like how dry ice melts?

231 gaw  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:09:28pm

Yep. Cold, dry air.

232 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:10:43pm

re: #231 gaw

Yep. Cold, dry air.

So, you do not believe this loss of ice to be due to AGW?

233 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:10:46pm

re: #228 Mich-again

But of course that is exactly what the spokesperson for the embassy would say now isn't it.

(BTW, I only posted that because I read a while back that its one of the various forms of the ad hominen argument and I was waiting for the right chance to use it. :-) )

Yeah. My first thought was that it's a BS story at some site called Islam Online dot net. Just because "it's there" doesn't mean it's true. Then reading through the article the indicated that the State Department denies such talks. Of course, those that are intent on slandering the administration will use any source to further that goal.

Yet another "sources confirmed" story.

234 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:11:48pm

Two weeks ago...

Taliban's Afghan allies tell Barack Obama: 'Cut us a deal and we'll ditch al-Qaeda'

President Barack Obama's review of strategy in Afghanistan means America will end up making a deal with the Taliban, and tolerating warlords, to end the fighting.

235 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:12:31pm

re: #231 gaw

Yep. Cold, dry air.

If you're referencing the posting, I think the article suggested it was suspected that recent changes are more due to melting than sublimation. Dry weather would explain some of it, but recent years' changes have been quite more than the past.

FTA:

"In 2000 he extracted deep cylinders of ice from Kilimanjaro’s glaciers and found that the higher layers were full of elongated bubbles — signs that melting and refreezing had occurred in recent years."

236 gaw  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:14:31pm

re: #232 Dark_Falcon

So, you do not believe this loss of ice to be due to AGW?

Only if AGW has caused sub-Saharan Africa to cool cool over the last century or so.

237 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:14:59pm

re: #231 gaw

Yep. Cold, dry air.

Do you reckon Intelligent Design may be at work?

238 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:16:36pm

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

Two weeks ago...

Taliban's Afghan allies tell Barack Obama: 'Cut us a deal and we'll ditch al-Qaeda'

The time for that was right after 9-11. An organization that obstinately refused to distance themselves from the Al-Queda criminals can never be trusted. Sounds like an Islamic Hudna if you ask me (as in, a temporary peace treaty that is really just a pause in hostilities while you rebuild to start the war again).

239 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:17:38pm

Is it possible that the warmening we see today is a continuation of the warmening that has been going on for centuries? And man is just speeding things up a little?

I mean, if man was not here at all the planet would still be in a warming phase correct?

240 gaw  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:17:50pm

re: #237 Bagua

Do you reckon Intelligent Design may be at work?

Yes. And it's all Glenn Beck's fault. So sue me.

241 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:18:21pm

Plane passenger accidentally activates ejector seat - and survives

The novice flier instantly shot through the jet's perspex canopy and was blasted 100 metres into the sky by the rocket-powered emergency chair.

Experts said the man was lucky to escape unharmed following the bizarre incident, which happened on Wednesday in South Africa.

It is thought he activated the ejector seat after lurching forward during an aerobatic manoeuvre and accidentally pulling on the black and yellow emergency handle between his legs.

The lever is fitted as standard in the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II jets to allow pilots and their passengers to eject from the aircraft in the event of an emergency.

As soon as it was activated, the ejection sequence activated two rockets attached to the back of his chair.

The man, who has not been named, later floated back down to Earth on a parachute which opened automatically.

242 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:18:45pm

re: #240 gaw

Yes. And it's all Glenn Beck's fault. So sue me.

LOL, good on you for a bit of honesty. Why not leave religion to the priests and science to the scientists?

243 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:18:51pm

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

Two weeks ago...

Taliban's Afghan allies tell Barack Obama: 'Cut us a deal and we'll ditch al-Qaeda'

re: #234 NJDhockeyfan

Two weeks ago...

Taliban's Afghan allies tell Barack Obama: 'Cut us a deal and we'll ditch al-Qaeda'

Odd isn't it? That was written by Nick Meo. On October 22, 2008, Blackfive was calling him the most incompetent and self-serving journalist in the world:

Nick Meo - The Most Self-serving and Incompetent Journalist in the World

244 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:19:06pm

re: #239 Racer X


I mean, if man was not here at all the planet would still be in a warming phase correct?

No. The long term trend should be a very slight, very gradual cooling.

245 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:21:00pm

re: #241 NJDhockeyfan

No! No! Not the red one!...

246 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:21:36pm

re: #244 freetoken

No. The long term trend should be a very slight, very gradual cooling.

Why?

247 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:21:52pm

re: #244 freetoken

No. The long term trend should be a very slight, very gradual cooling.

Why would that be the case--the idea that we should expect a slow, gradual cooling without AGW?

248 Charles Johnson  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:23:01pm

re: #240 gaw

Yes. And it's all Glenn Beck's fault. So sue me.

Instead of suing, I will simply bid you adieu.

249 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:23:01pm

re: #239 Racer X

Dude, you totally misspelled "warming". Twice.

250 Gus  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:23:09pm

re: #241 NJDhockeyfan

Plane passenger accidentally activates ejector seat - and survives

Sorry but after reading this...


The lever is fitted as standard in the Pilatus PC-7 Mk II jets to allow pilots and their passengers to eject from the aircraft in the event of an emergency.

The Pilatus PC-7 Mk II is not a jet.

Just sayin'.

251 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:23:18pm

re: #247 BryanS

Why would that be the case--the idea that we should expect a slow, gradual cooling without AGW?

One idea is that we are actually in an interglacial and that there's another Ice Age still to come.

252 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:24:48pm

re: #248 Charles

Oof, he was about to cross that 100 comment mark. After 5 years. So close...

253 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:25:20pm

re: #248 Charles

Instead of suing, I will simply bid you adieu.

I had the charcoal right next to the grill for that one last night, but didn't light it. I'm lighting it now so fillet of gaw will be served in 30 minutes. Drink orders will now be taken,

254 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:25:44pm

Hey, if the Chinese could 'seed' the clouds to cause snow, couldn't we just do a boatload of 'seeding'. Wouldn't that cool things down a bit?

255 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:27:13pm

gawn

256 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:27:23pm

re: #254 Oh no...Sand People!

Hey, if the Chinese could 'seed' the clouds to cause snow, couldn't we just do a boatload of 'seeding'. Wouldn't that cool things down a bit?

Ancient Chinese Secret

They won't give us the recipe.

257 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:27:40pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

Bit like shooting sitting ducks that one.

258 Bob Dillon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:28:02pm

Some time back the "cause" seemed to be the deforestation of the mountain.

Cut down the trees and no more upwelling of moisture to be deposited at the summit.

Here is a paper that touches on it.

[Link: www.blackwoodconservation.org...]

259 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:28:47pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

One idea is that we are actually in an interglacial and that there's another Ice Age still to come.

That's what a Russian scientist says.

A researcher at Russia's oceanology institute says global warming has peaked — and the planet is now headed for a cooling period that will last through the end of the century.

Oleg Sorokhtin is a fellow of the Russian academy of natural sciences. He writes in an article for the Russian news and information agency that a cold spell will set in by 2012. H believes an even colder period will begin as solar activity reaches a minimum in 2041 — and that it will last 50 to 60 years.

Sorokhtin says warming and cooling are entirely natural processes — independent of human activity. He says the current warming trend is due to changes in things like solar activity, ocean currents, and salinity fluctuations in Arctic waters.

Meanwhile, British weather experts say 2008 will be the coolest year since 2000 because of a drop in sea surface temperatures off the western coast of South America — known as La Nina. But they say this year will still be one of the 10 hottest years on record.

260 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:28:53pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

One idea is that we are actually in an interglacial and that there's another Ice Age still to come.

That was the fad news story from the 70s, but what is the explanation for any suggestion we are heading into a cooling period? I don't think we have a good explanation for the extreme variations in climate over the history of the earth. The best explanation I heard for how the earth gets out of an ice age is the slow accumulation of CO2 from volcanic eruptions eventually overwhelms the drive to melt the ice coverings. I haven't heard a good explanation yet for why we head into an ice age to begin with.

261 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:32:27pm

re: #256 NJDhockeyfan

Ancient Chinese Secret

They won't give us the recipe.

Hehehe..

But seriously, isn't that a solution to the Global Warming?

262 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:32:37pm

re: #246 cliffster

re: #247 BryanS

If you look at the Milankovitch cycles, and calculate them for now and the near future, the orbital changes of the Earth would lead to a slight cooling:

An often-cited 1980 study by Imbrie and Imbrie determined that, "Ignoring anthropogenic and other possible sources of variation acting at frequencies higher than one cycle per 19,000 years, this model predicts that the long-term cooling trend which began some 6,000 years ago will continue for the next 23,000 years."[10]

More recent work by Berger and Loutre suggests that the current warm climate may last another 50,000 years.[11]

As far as I know, there are no other viable theories, outside of Milankovitch cycles, that can explain the onset and end of ice ages. The temporal match is very good, and the underlying basic physics of radiation and orbital mechanics is very well understood.

263 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:32:51pm

re: #259 NJDhockeyfan

Maybe there is some cloud feedback mechanism, but the idea that solar output variations is the cause of the changes has mostly been debunked. Solar output variation certainly does not explain more recent climate variations.

264 Racer X  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:33:49pm

re: #261 Oh no...Sand People!

Hehehe..

But seriously, isn't that a solution to the Global Warming?

Can't someone just open a window?

265 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:35:30pm

re: #264 Racer X

Can't someone just open a window?

I bring my car door with me for that very reason.
/

266 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:36:06pm

re: #262 freetoken

Interesting. My guess is you wouldn't run to Vegas with that story...

267 NJDhockeyfan  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:36:46pm

re: #261 Oh no...Sand People!

Hehehe..

But seriously, isn't that a solution to the Global Warming?

I really don't think there is a problem to warrant a solution. The Earth is huge and has been warming & cooling for millions of years. We have been monitoring the climate for a blink of an eye of time and I feel we just don't have enough information to claim man has caused global warming. It's good for someone to make a buck from it though. Ask Algore.

Later lizards, time for me to turn in.

268 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:38:24pm

re: #267 NJDhockeyfan

I really don't think there is a problem to warrant a solution. The Earth is huge and has been warming & cooling for millions of years. We have been monitoring the climate for a blink of an eye of time and I feel we just don't have enough information to claim man has caused global warming. It's good for someone to make a buck from it though. Ask Algore.

Later lizards, time for me to turn in.

I agree with you, but as the voices get more 'alarmist' shouldn't the 'cloud seeding' make them feel a bit, 'Oh, we do have options...aside from taxing them and taking people's money'?

This seems like a solid possible solution.

269 webevintage  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:39:56pm

Dougie MacLean

Youtube Video
270 AMER1CAN  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:42:59pm

Just tossing this into the equation as well in case it wasn't mentioned before, but, the massive earthquake off the west coast of Indonesia on December 26, 2004, decreased the length of day, slightly changed the planet's shape, and shifted the North Pole by centimeters. The earthquake that created the huge tsunami also changed the Earth's rotation.

Surely major earth moving events like this this has to have some type on impact with regards to the climate change debate. Yes?

/waves hi to all the locals. It's been awhile! Glad to see LGF still going strong! Kudos, Charles.

271 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:43:03pm

There most certainly is not a "problem" with global warming. We care about all the predications made by scientists. Nature does not. We care about humans getting snuffed off the Earth (humans would certainly not be the first). Nature does not.

We call it a "problem". Nature calls it a "correction".

272 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:45:06pm

re: #266 cliffster

Interesting. My guess is you wouldn't run to Vegas with that story...

On the contrary... the glacial/interglacial cycles' temporal characteristics appear to be significantly affected by the Earth's orbit. I've not come across any current information in readings I have done that would dispute that.

273 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:45:32pm

re: #271 cliffster

I'll follow this up by saying, I haven't done the research, so I don't know enough to have an opinion. Maybe things are just warming and cooling the same way they always have. Or maybe not.

But I do know - Nature is unconcerned about our feelings, and callous in her reaction to our actions.

274 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:49:32pm

re: #260 BryanS

That was the fad news story from the 70s, but what is the explanation for any suggestion we are heading into a cooling period? I don't think we have a good explanation for the extreme variations in climate over the history of the earth. The best explanation I heard for how the earth gets out of an ice age is the slow accumulation of CO2 from volcanic eruptions eventually overwhelms the drive to melt the ice coverings. I haven't heard a good explanation yet for why we head into an ice age to begin with.

I was just throwing that one out there. It is quite likely to be wrong. I just mentioned it without endorsement to get the conversation going.

275 jaunte  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:49:42pm

Goodnight all.

A man said to the universe:
"Sir, I exist!
"However," replied the universe,
"The fact has not created in me
"A sense of obligation."
-- Stephen Crane

276 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:51:30pm

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

I was just throwing that one out there. It is quite likely to be wrong. I just mentioned it without endorsement to get the conversation going.

Slow night considering the subject, eh?

277 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:52:37pm

re: #260 BryanS

We are definitely in an interglacial period... unless you are proposing that there will never again be advances of continental glaciers, and if you are proposing that I would ask why you would conclude such a thing.

The reason I send people to the AIP website on the Discovery of Global Warming is because these questions are answered, or at least touched upon, by that website.

278 cliffster  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:52:54pm

re: #276 Bagua

Slow night considering the subject, eh?

Donde está Ludwig?

279 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:54:04pm

re: #278 cliffster

Donde está Ludwig?

Yes, it's too quiet, the Viet Cong must be massing for a surprise attack!

280 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:54:12pm

re: #276 Bagua

Slow night considering the subject, eh?

Yep. No flounces, and the banning happened before the troll really got a chance to spew any bile. Then again, his website really told anyone who saw it all they needed to know.

281 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:54:31pm

re: #278 cliffster

Donde está Ludwig?

Good question... the holodeck is calling me... it's the Brazilian Women's Volleyball team vs. the Japanese Women's swimming team... and I don't want to miss the competition.

282 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:54:51pm

re: #279 Bagua

Yes, it's too quiet, the Viet Cong must be massing for a surprise attack!

TFK, is that you?

/entirely kidding

283 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:54:52pm

re: #274 Dark_Falcon

I was just throwing that one out there. It is quite likely to be wrong. I just mentioned it without endorsement to get the conversation going.

Understood. Freetoken's reference is as good as any other to explain variations over time. Variations in the earth's orbit seems more likely than solar output variations anyway. It's an interesting question that nobody yet has a definitive answer to. The temperature fluctuations are much larger than just the radiation variations would cause by themselves, so there has to be feedback mechanisms--in both warming and cooling directions.

We're certainly releasing greenhouse gases at a rate that is faster than anything the earth would be close to doing itself.

284 Oh no...Sand People!  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 9:56:12pm

Gym time. Later all.

285 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:00:41pm

re: #280 Dark_Falcon

Yep. No flounces, and the banning happened before the troll really got a chance to spew any bile. Then again, his website really told anyone who saw it all they needed to know.

Are you insinuating I simply used Occam's Razor?

I assure you my thought processes are irreducibly complex!

Why the entire team of doctors here at the asylum are baffled.

286 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:02:45pm

re: #277 freetoken

We are definitely in an interglacial period... unless you are proposing that there will never again be advances of continental glaciers, and if you are proposing that I would ask why you would conclude such a thing.

The reason I send people to the AIP website on the Discovery of Global Warming is because these questions are answered, or at least touched upon, by that website.

No--wasn't suggesting we'd never have glaciers again. Was just wondering how cooling would happen to begin with.

Shouldn't we have a policy of intentional global warming the next 10k years then, so we keep our current climate :)

287 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:05:36pm

re: #286 BryanS

Shouldn't we have a policy of intentional global warming the next 10k years then, so we keep our current climate :)

Let's convene the UN General Assembly to consider this and make recommendations.

;)

288 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:06:31pm

re: #286 BryanS

No--wasn't suggesting we'd never have glaciers again. Was just wondering how cooling would happen to begin with.

Shouldn't we have a policy of intentional global warming the next 10k years then, so we keep our current climate :)

The idea is... as the obliquity of the Earth changes, in the Northern Hemisphere (which has most of the landmass) the incident sunlight strikes at a slightly different angle, causing less energy to be retained by the surface of the planet.

On fending off any global cooling... we've already shot past what is needed! And, if we continue business as usual (which is likely) we will be so far into warming that glaciation won't be a problem for a very long time!

289 BryanS  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:09:51pm

re: #288 freetoken

The idea is... as the obliquity of the Earth changes, in the Northern Hemisphere (which has most of the landmass) the incident sunlight strikes at a slightly different angle, causing less energy to be retained by the surface of the planet.

On fending off any global cooling... we've already shot past what is needed! And, if we continue business as usual (which is likely) we will be so far into warming that glaciation won't be a problem for a very long time!

As long as you don't invest in ocean front property, everything should be ok :)

290 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:17:24pm

In other news... tomorrow's election ought to bring out quite a bit of posting... will have to stock up on the popcorn.

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:18:04pm

re: #281 freetoken

Good question... the holodeck is calling me... it's the Brazilian Women's Volleyball team vs. the Japanese Women's swimming team... and I don't want to miss the competition.

Well what do you think I was watching? Believe it or don't I do have work to do too :)

292 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:19:41pm

re: #272 freetoken

On the contrary... the glacial/interglacial cycles' temporal characteristics appear to be significantly affected by the Earth's orbit. I've not come across any current information in readings I have done that would dispute that.

In fact those are the primary forcing of many previous climate events. The fact that we can calculate such things really well is one of the reasons we can so confidently rule them out as the cause of the present warming.

293 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:20:09pm

re: #262 freetoken

This is correct.

294 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:23:01pm

re: #292 LudwigVanQuixote

In fact those are the primary forcing of many previous climate events. The fact that we can calculate such things really well is one of the reasons we can so confidently rule them out as the cause of the present warming.

Sorry about the lame Ice Age jumpball I threw up. I only did it to get the conversation started.

295 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:28:11pm

re: #293 LudwigVanQuixote

This is correct.

Well... I really should have said "glacial/interglacial periods" rather than "ice ages"... but the distinction is a subtle about which no one has yet asked.

296 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:28:12pm

I yield to no one in taking anthropogenic global warming seriously. But still, we must do our science right. The retreat of the snows of K is not the best evidence for AGW. It's not even very good.

K is a volcano. It's not dead, either. Steam vents from fumaroles in the inner crater, more or less constantly. Any little shift in the rate that heat bubbles up from below can be the cause of the snow retreating.

Also, there's a lie in the article. {Well, lie, or egregious and inexcusable error.} It claims,

As another significant indicator of global warming, the loss of the Kilimanjaro ice fields carries "significant climatological and hydrological implications" for local populations who rely on water from the ice fields during the dry seasons and monsoon failures.

This is not just wrong, it's ridiculous. I've been there. The summit of K is arid and receives little precip. The water coming off K is almost exclusively runoff from rains that fall well down the slopes, at altitudes of 3000 meters or less. I've also seen a NatGeo documentary to the same effect.

Arguing "by any means necessary" for AGW is a losing proposition. False arguments will be refuted, and then the correct arguments will lose credibility.

297 freetoken  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:31:51pm

re: #296 lostlakehiker

Agree that using this particular mountain as proof of AGW is not a good idea; and, I suggest that is exactly why the article as quoted by Charles explicitly calls out the fact that there is disagreement over using changes in the ice on this mountain for such arguments.

298 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:48:18pm

re: #296 lostlakehiker

Well in of itself you would be very correct. However, there is the issue that in all of human history, and the people there have songs about the snows on Kilimanjaro back thousands of years, it is now melting.

Again in of itself it would not be the most giant concern, a potential anomaly. However, given everything else that is melting, the fact that this is too, is yet another piece of evidence and yet another reason to be concerned.

Many people in may parts of the world get their water from melts. When that snow and ice is gone, then the people in those regions will have to go elsewhere for water. This applies to the American South West as well.

299 Dark_Falcon  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 10:58:06pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

Well in of itself you would be very correct. However, there is the issue that in all of human history, and the people there have songs about the snows on Kilimanjaro back thousands of years, it is now melting.

Again in of itself it would not be the most giant concern, a potential anomaly. However, given everything else that is melting, the fact that this is too, is yet another piece of evidence and yet another reason to be concerned.

Many people in may parts of the world get their water from melts. When that snow and ice is gone, then the people in those regions will have to go elsewhere for water. This applies to the American South West as well.

That last was my thought as well. No more melts would be a disaster of the first magnitude for LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas.

300 lostlakehiker  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 11:08:02pm

re: #298 LudwigVanQuixote

Well in of itself you would be very correct. However, there is the issue that in all of human history, and the people there have songs about the snows on Kilimanjaro back thousands of years, it is now melting.

Again in of itself it would not be the most giant concern, a potential anomaly. However, given everything else that is melting, the fact that this is too, is yet another piece of evidence and yet another reason to be concerned.

Many people in may parts of the world get their water from melts. When that snow and ice is gone, then the people in those regions will have to go elsewhere for water. This applies to the American South West as well.

Yes, the loss of snowmelt and glacial runoff is a real concern for many people in many parts of the earth. It is not, however, a factor in the lives of the people living near Kilimanjaro.

301 Bagua  Mon, Nov 2, 2009 11:09:40pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

No more melts would be a disaster of the first magnitude for LA, Phoenix, and Las Vegas.

It would also mean the end of Philadelphia Cheese Steak Subs. They'd be no more than fancy sandwiches without the melting.

302 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 2:18:32am

We haven't begun to discuss the effect this will have on the Ski Resort industry in Africa, either...

303 atomicsecrets  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 4:17:58am

I'm not climate change denier, but previous studies claimed deforestation on the mountain slopes caused the ice cap to melt. A hasty googling yielded: [Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

304 alexknyc  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 4:34:04am

re: #157 tradewind

Why is anyone playing baseball in freaking November???

Thanks to Global Warming, it's now hot enough for baseball in November.
///

305 ExCamelJockey  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 6:47:35am

re: #296 lostlakehiker

I yield to no one in taking anthropogenic global warming seriously. But still, we must do our science right. The retreat of the snows of K is not the best evidence for AGW. It's not even very good.

/agree
There's a mass of articles on this subject and not many attribute it to AGW ... unless AGW started back in the 1800's.

306 MKELLY  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:14:18am

Not very good science when they should know that the glacier is above the freeze line. It does not get above freezing there so it is not melting.

307 charles_martel  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 7:16:01am

I remember reading two articles in the Economist magazine several months ago. One article was all scary about climate change and that we're all doomed. The second article was about a small microecology of a small pond somewhere in England. The last sentence of the second article ended with a statement to the effect of: "scientists still don't understand the complexities of this microclimate..."

I just scratched my head.

308 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:05:36am

This is yet another case of "when you are a hammer all of your problems look like nails". Yes, the icecaps of Kilmanjaro are melting... but is the cause of this anthropogenic global warming? Not very likely, despite the shrill warnings from the global warmistas. There are many other more likely causes, such as forest reduction in the areas surrounding Kilimanjaro. The loss of foliage causes less moisture to be pumped into the atmosphere, leading to reduced cloud cover and precipitation and increased solar radiation and glacial evaporation.

309 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:46:53am

re: #307 charles_martel

... The last sentence of the second article ended with a statement to the effect of: "scientists still don't understand the complexities of this microclimate..."

I just scratched my head.

No need to scratch your head, Charles. I think that this statement is probably a rare accurate statement coming out from the mainstream media which generally thrives on sensationalism and likes to create the impression that "man-made climate change" is an established scientific fact. Any true scientist worth his salt should be able to confirm that we actually know very little about all the various factors that affect climate. The most glaring one is the effect of the abundant amount of water vapor (in the form of clouds) on global warming. There is also very little known about the effect of microorganisms on 'global warming'.

310 Captain America 1776  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:12am

Oh no, not this Kilimanjaro rubbish again!

[Link: wattsupwiththat.com...]

Here’s news of a recent study from Portsmouth University Of Mt. Kilimanjaro ice waving us good-bye due to deforestation.

[Link: 216.69.164.44...]

Here’s another peer reviewed study from UAH saying the same thing.

[Link: adsabs.harvard.edu...]

311 ssn697  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:50:15am

"Any true scientist worth his salt should be able to confirm that we actually know very little about all the various factors that affect climate. The most glaring one is the effect of the abundant amount of water vapor (in the form of clouds) on global warming. There is also very little known about the effect of microorganisms on 'global warming'."

Just so I am clear: You say no one knows, but you then claim your reasoning is correct?

312 ssn697  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 8:52:34am

re: #308 Joetheplumber

I find it interesting how easily you discount anything from scientists that doesn't suport your "it's not man made" beliefs, while immediately glomming onto anything that supports your views as fact.

313 MinisterO  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:00:32am

From the article:

The remaining glaciers throughout Africa will soon disappear, most glaciers in tropical South America are in rapid retreat, the few
remaining glaciers in Indonesia are rapidly disappearing, and
on balance most Tibetan glaciers, including many in the Himalayas,
are also retreating. Moreover, some of the highest glaciers in
the Himalayas are now wasting from the surface downward just
like the ice fields on Kilimanjaro.

Whether it's due to deforestation or a warming trend, we're unanimous in attributing this change in climate to human activities!

Can you say ANTHROPOGENIC?

314 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:05:15am

re: #311 ssn697


Just so I am clear: You say no one knows, but you then claim your reasoning is correct?

Though I have talked about 'deforestation' as a possible likely cause, I haven't claimed that this is THE only cause. There is, in fact, the possibility that underground volcanic activity could be the cause for the melting ice-caps of Kilmanjaro. The fact as I mentioned before is that there are a huge number of factors that affects climate; and we know precious little about how these factors affect climate. This is quite different from the global warmistas who see 'global warming' as the cause of every calamity in the world.

315 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:15:05am

re: #313 MinisterO

From the article:

Whether it's due to deforestation or a warming trend, we're unanimous in attributing this change in climate to human activities!

Can you say ANTHROPOGENIC?

Yes, human beings can cause local changes in their environment; and deforestation is a good example. I have no problem with laws and efforts aimed at curbing deforestation and reducing pollution; but what I do have problems with is the classification of CO2 as the prime villan and cause of global warming.

316 MinisterO  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:17:16am

re: #306 MKELLY

The PNAS article provides strong evidence that melting is occurring. I see no reason to doubt its scientific validity.

317 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:19:08am

re: #312 ssn697

I find it interesting how easily you discount anything from scientists that doesn't suport your "it's not man made" beliefs, while immediately glomming onto anything that supports your views as fact.

There is a BIG difference between my position and those who are convinced that CO2 is the cause of global warming. My position is simple; i.e. we know bleep about all the factors that affect climate. The burden of proof lies on the scientists who say they have conclusive proof about CO2 being the MAJOR cause of global warming, when in fact they know very little about all the factors and causes of climate change.

318 Bagua  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 9:36:44am

re: #310 Captain America 1776

Oh no, not this Kilimanjaro rubbish again!

..]

Oh no, not another rubbish comment from Captain America, this time in bold for emphasis!

If you read the article instead of only the title before commenting you'd see that the melt is not being clearly attributed to the warming. There were divergent views.

If you read the thread you'd see that almost no one thought this melt was clearly due to Global Warming.

But thank you for enlightening us that what you didn't read or comprehend is actualy rubbish.

As much as I don't like the term, you do fit the profile of a reflexive denier.

319 Bagua  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 10:11:49am

re: #317 Joetheplumber

[...] My position is simple; i.e. we know bleep about all the factors that affect climate. [...]

That is ridiculous, our knowledge may not be complete, but it is not nothing.

320 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:20:45am

re: #319 Bagua

That is ridiculous, our knowledge may not be complete, but it is not nothing.

I never claimed that we have no knowledge regarding climate science, but we should acknowledge that our knowledge is very much in its infancy. Climate science is far more complex than what the mainstream media would have us believe. Global climate is a result of the complex interactions between the atmosphere, cryosphere (ice), hydrosphere (oceans), lithosphere (land), and biosphere (life), fueled by the nonuniform spatial distribution of incoming solar radiation. To believe that we have understood these interactions sufficiently to prescribe definitive "solutions" (such as mandating reductions in CO2 emissions) to 'global warming' is, at least to my mind, extremely naive.

321 MinisterO  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:48:12am

re: #320 Joetheplumber

Global climate is a result of the complex interactions between the atmosphere, cryosphere (ice), hydrosphere (oceans), lithosphere (land), and biosphere (life), fueled by the nonuniform spatial distribution of incoming solar radiation.

Joetheplumber is quoting of the first sentence of a 2001 PNAS paper, Global climate models: Past, present, and future. The article goes on to say


Major progress in our understanding of climate processes in the past, present, and future has been made by the development of numerical models that simulate climate at an increasing level of detail. Recent breakthroughs in spatial coverage and temporal resolutions of systems recording today’s climate and high resolution reconstructions of past climate conditions from diverse archives using new proxies make it possible to validate climate models and thus improve their reliability for future
predictions.
322 korla pundit  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 11:53:35am

This is likely more closely related to the desertification that Tanzania is now experiencing than to worldwide climate factors.

323 MinisterO  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 12:04:37pm

In barely related news

Republicans boycott Senate panel debate on climate change bill.

324 Bagua  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 12:15:31pm

In #320 you said:

re: #320 Joetheplumber

I never claimed that we have no knowledge regarding climate science, but we should acknowledge that our knowledge is very much in its infancy.[...]

Previously in #317 you had said:

re: #317 Joetheplumber

[...] My position is simple; i.e. we know bleep about all the factors that affect climate. [...]

You appear to controdict yourself.

Define "bleep", most people would assume an expletive deleted which implies nothing.

And who is this "we" you speak of paleface? When you talk about the knowledge "we have no knowledge" do you mean we as in scientists, or we as in, "and we not knowing, like water willy nilly flowing."?

325 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 12:35:17pm

re: #324 Bagua

Maybe I was being too 'poetic' in using the term 'bleep' :) but I meant that we are really in the infancy stage with regard to climate science (especially regarding the interactions between the various factors that contribute to climate change). And by 'we' I meant 'we, as in the collective human race'. I don't claim to be a scientist (I'm actually an electrical engineer).

326 Joetheplumber  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 12:43:29pm

re: #321 MinisterO

While I did use the sentence from this paper (since I thought it provided a succinct statement of fact regarding the major factors that need to be considered in understanding 'global warming'), I am very skeptical about the rest of the claims made in this paper regarding the use of numerical models to improve 'understanding' of the field.

327 ryannon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 1:26:22pm

re: #179 Killgore Trout

Lava Lamp MIDI controller


Youtube Video

0:47 I always knew they were evil. No one would believe me.

328 ryannon  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 1:30:26pm

re: #190 NJDhockeyfan

Global warming melts ice, melting ice stops global warming, must be some sort of cycle.

Melting ice may slow global warming

Jesus. Anything they can pull out of a hat to get on one or another of the floats in the anti/pro parade.

I've got this theory that every time I pick my nose, I'm helping to fight global warming. Let me tell you about it...

First of all, etc., etc.

329 MKELLY  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 1:38:03pm

MinisterO, any of Mount K glacier above the freeze line will not melt due to global warming. That is why they call it the freeze line. It may sublimate, melt due to volcanic activity, melt due to its own weight but not due to global warming. And there is no evidence the freeze line is getting higher.

330 MinisterO  Tue, Nov 3, 2009 1:59:08pm

re: #329 MKELLY

Nobody said it was melting due to global warming. Nevertheless, surface melting is occurring, and the glacier is losing mass as a result.

331 Captain America 1776  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:27:06am

re: #318 Bagua

Oh no, not another rubbish comment from Captain America, this time in bold for emphasis!

If you read the article instead of only the title before commenting you'd see that the melt is not being clearly attributed to the warming. There were divergent views.

If you read the thread you'd see that almost no one thought this melt was clearly due to Global Warming.

But thank you for enlightening us that what you didn't read or comprehend is actually rubbish.

As much as I don't like the term, you do fit the profile of a reflexive denier.

Baqua, the article I read DOES NOT attribute the glacial decline on Kilimanjaro to AGW, on that point you are incorrect.
There is no "melt" atop Mt. Kilimanjaro Baqua, for the temps atop that fine volcano never dip below freezing, thus the glacial ice cannot "melt." Man-made global warming (creating glacial melt) cannot be a factor in a glacier disappearing if the temperature of the glacier never comes close to rising above freezing (which is underlined by the fact that the global temperature has been declining since 1998).What is far more likely is that constantly lower amounts of participation over the past century mean that the glaciers are in a natural state of decline and state they have been in since at least 1912. Think evapotranspitation and you'll have the answer to the disappearing Kilimanjaro glacial ice, not AGW.

332 Captain America 1776  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:36:38am

Gore clears carbon dioxide of most blame

This is big. Al Gore is now saying carbon dioxide isn’t actually to blame for most of the warming we saw until 2001:

Gore explored new studies - published only last week - that show methane and black carbon or soot had a far greater impact on global warming than previously thought. Carbon dioxide – while the focus of the politics of climate change – produces around 40% of the actual warming. Gore acknowledged to Newsweek that the findings could complicate efforts to build a political consensus around the need to limit carbon emissions.

Which suggests not only that was Gore wrong to claim the science was “settled”, but that the hugely expensive schemes to “stop” warming by slashing carbon dixoide emissions will be less than half as effective as claimed.


[Link: blogs.news.com.au...]

333 Captain America 1776  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:50:29am

National Weather Service lesson: No evidence CO2 is causing global warming

An online course provided by the National Weather Service states that while carbon dioxide has been linked to global warming, there is no evidence to back the claim up. The series of lessons on the atmosphere are part of “JetSream - Online School for Weather” and according to a time stamp at the bottom of the page was updated as recently as September 1, 2009.

The lesson in question is titled “It’s a Gas, Man” with a stated objective to “Discover if carbon dioxide has an effect on temperature.”

In this, the tenth in a series of lessons, the National Weather Service points out that CO2 has increased greatly in the atmosphere but questions the validity of the argument manmade climate change via CO2 increases are the reason behind increasing global temperatures. The lesson says that, “there is no evidence that it is causing an increase in global temperatures.

Scribd Document
334 MinisterO  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 9:09:40am

re: #333 Captain America 1776

The farce is strong in this one.

Contrarian Education at NOAA

335 Solomon2  Wed, Nov 4, 2009 8:45:16pm

I "converted" to believing in global warming back in 2003, when NASA recalibrated its global satellite temperature data. What I don't think people understand is that we are beyond the point where it can be easily buffered, and as the caps vanish and the clathrates in the ocean are released the warming will accelerate.

We may live to see coconut palms growing in Seattle. I know beaches in New Jersey that have already planted a few of them.

On the other hand, many of the effects of global warming are beneficial: less deserts (even the Sahara will pick up rain), a navigable Arctic Ocean, larger and more bountiful harvests - assuming, that is, that the mid-west doesn't become an uncontrollable rainforest. Remember the summer floods in the Mississippi a few years back? Rain would fall, evaporate, and fall again. Keep that up for long and farmers would start to give up, and within thirty years swamps could recaim huge areas...

As for Mt. Kilimanjaro, I'm afraid the famous coffee of this mountain is threatened by the warming weather. Sad.

336 Captain America 1776  Fri, Nov 6, 2009 7:48:42am

A new study in the journal Science has just shown that all of the climate modeling results of the past are erroneous. The IPCC's modeling cronies have just been told that the figures used for greenhouse gas forcings are incorrect, meaning none of the model results from prior IPCC reports can be considered valid. What has caused climate scientists' assumptions to go awry? Short lived aerosol particles in the atmosphere changing how greenhouse gases react in previously unsuspected ways. The result is another devastating blow to the climate catastrophists' computer generated apocalyptic fantasies.

[Link: www.sciencemag.org...]


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