Facts Not a Stumbling Block for Morrissey

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At wingnut site Hot Air, Ed Morrissey is promoting yet another anti-abortion story, citing a “local investigator” in Virginia who claims that a woman who smothered a newborn infant cannot be charged with a crime because of a statute that says as long as the umbilical cord is still attached to a baby, the mother can do anything she wants with it — even kill it: Video: Mother kills newborn, can’t be charged with crime.

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson. “She could shoot the baby, stab the baby. As long as it’s still attached to her in some form by umbilical cord or something it’s no crime in the state of Virginia.”

A State Senator immediately jumped on the story to make some political capital with the far right: Statement from State Senator Newman on killing of newborn.

(Lynchburg, VA) State Senator Steve Newman announced today that the Division of Legislative Services has begun drafting legislation to ensure that a life cannot be legally taken after a child is born not withstanding its connection to the umbilical cord.

The bill will amend Section 18.2 of the Code of Virginia which is the criminal code. Newman stated, “It is difficult to believe that the current Code could have such a flaw that would allow anyone to take the life of a born child.”

You know, that is kind of “difficult to believe,” isn’t it?

That’s because it’s not even close to being true.

Here’s Section 18.2 of the Code of Virginia: LIS - Code of Virginia - 18.2-71.1:

18.2-71.1. Partial birth infanticide; penalty.

A. Any person who knowingly performs partial birth infanticide and thereby kills a human infant is guilty of a Class 4 felony.

B. For the purposes of this section, “partial birth infanticide” means any deliberate act that (i) is intended to kill a human infant who has been born alive, but who has not been completely extracted or expelled from its mother, and that (ii) does kill such infant, regardless of whether death occurs before or after extraction or expulsion from its mother has been completed.

The term “partial birth infanticide” shall not under any circumstances be construed to include any of the following procedures: (i) the suction curettage abortion procedure, (ii) the suction aspiration abortion procedure, (iii) the dilation and evacuation abortion procedure involving dismemberment of the fetus prior to removal from the body of the mother, or (iv) completing delivery of a living human infant and severing the umbilical cord of any infant who has been completely delivered.

C. For the purposes of this section, “human infant who has been born alive” means a product of human conception that has been completely or substantially expelled or extracted from its mother, regardless of the duration of pregnancy, which after such expulsion or extraction breathes or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached.

Oops!

Just another day in the right wing blogosphere, promoting false stories without even bothering to check the facts. This is becoming quite a trend.

(Hat tip: KT.)

UPDATE at 12/18/09 12:39:35 pm:

Meanwhile, a Hot Air commenter is threatening to hunt down and kill this woman.

Just send me “Moms” name and address I’ll happily mete out the appropriate punishment to this piece o crap.

Viper1 on December 18, 2009 at 3:32 PM

UPDATE at 12/18/09 3:37:34 pm:

More comments from the lovely people at Hot Air:

What color is the mother?

pabarge on December 18, 2009 at 6:18 PM

[…]

May she get raped by an AIDS case and die a VERY slow painful death ! C**t!

cableguy615 on December 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM

UPDATE at 12/18/09 9:46:27 pm:

Ed Morrissey responds to my post, but can’t even bring himself to write my name, because it will get cooties on him:

Update II: A critic says that the report from WSLS is false, and that the law does cover this situation. But that critic doesn’t live in Virginia, and doesn’t explain how WSLS, the law enforcement agency, the state legislator, and the attorney general all got it wrong, too. After all, if the law covered the situation, the legislator wouldn’t have needed to introduce legislation to fix it and the AG, the county’s attorney, and the sheriff wouldn’t have endorsed it. At any rate, the facts to which I linked were reported by WSLS and confirmed by all of the above, all of whom are better sources than the critic in question.

And then he quotes an entirely different statue that does not apply to this case, to try to justify his mistake:

Virginia Code § 18.2-32.2 - Killing a fetus; penalty - Virginia Virginia Code § 18.2-32.2 - Killing a fetus; penalty - Virginia Code :: Justia

18.2-32.2. Killing a fetus; penalty.

A. Any person who unlawfully, willfully, deliberately, maliciously and with premeditation kills the fetus of another is guilty of a Class 2 felony.

Two simple points that Ed Morrissey is apparently too simple to understand:

1) A newborn baby is not a “fetus.”

2) The statute he dug up specifically says “the fetus of another.” The woman in question is accused of killing her own newborn baby — not “the fetus of another.”

So Ed Morrissey (look, I can write his name!) isn’t just wrong, he’s doubly wrong. And a dishonest coward to boot.

UPDATE at 12/18/09 9:51:34 pm:

Meanwhile, the comments threatening the life of the woman, and wishing for her to be raped by someone with AIDS, remain posted at Hot Air.

Jump to bottom

366 comments
1 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:26:50am

Isn’t this story horrible enough without making up lies? Shame on you, Ed.

2 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:27:11am

Fact check on aisle 1 at HA. A basic google search would have revealed the state of Virginia law and the VA statute in question.

Shameful to push a story that can so easily be debunked. Just shameful.

3 Baier  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:28:34am

Sometimes the truth just isn’t good enough.
/

4 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:28:39am

Facts? Facts?

We doan need no steenking facts!

5 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:28:54am

What’s really sad is this was most likely an accidental death. As far as I can tell they’re still waiting for the autopsy. This poor woman just lost a child and now people are claiming she killed it. It’s really horrific.

6 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:32:07am

re: #1 Sharmuta

Isn’t this story horrible enough without making up lies? Shame on you, Ed.

It’s a pretty awful story to be making political hay of.

7 Mad Al-Jaffee  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:32:14am

That whiney singer from The Smiths?

8 theliel  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:32:41am

Surely someone has too nice countertops for this to be left alone, and obviously the VA site has been haxored and the law changed just to make ed look bad.
///

Wasn’t it the RIght Wings job to fact check teh ebil liburl media?

What is the old saying, when the facts are on your side, pund the facts, when the law’s on your side pound the law, and if neither pound the table….

9 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:34:25am

Senator Newman has a link to the Code of Virginia on his website. It’s the first one. That says something about him. Not sure exactly what. Obtuse? Mendacious?

10 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:35:57am

It does speak to the mindset, doesn’t it? Secretly, awful things are being done, behind your back, freak out, freak out nowwwwww….

11 LotharBot  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:36:18am

Virginia’s Partial Birth Abortion Ban was overturned by a 2-1 court decision May of 2008. If someone was working from only that bit of information, this story might seem plausible. But then, the law was reinstated by a 6-5 decision of the 4th circuit in June of this year, which makes the story wholly implausible. Anyone who has the google skills to type “Virginia abortion ban” can find this information quite easily. A little factchecking woulda been great…

It’s not clear if the Placenta or Umbilical cord are considered part of the child or not. If they are, then this is the relevant law. If not, then the child was fully delivered, and therefore would be covered under normal murder/manslaughter laws. (If, as KT mentions, this was an accidental death, then all of this is moot. But in the context of “blogger fails to factcheck”, it’s relevant.)

12 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:36:26am

I guess if facts get in the way of pushing the Boss Lady’s agenda, then facts be damned. Hope Ed’s integrity is worth the price Malkin’s paying for it.

13 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:37:15am

re: #5 Killgore Trout

What’s really sad is this was most likely an accidental death. As far as I can tell they’re still waiting for the autopsy. This poor woman just lost a child and now people are claiming she killed it. It’s really horrific.

Do you have any links raising that possibility?

Because I only find reports that they want to charge her, but won’t because of the above “law” - apparently none of the local media is aware of the law either.

14 george k  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:41:06am

re: #4 Girth

The story appeared on the news: www2.wsls.com

Perhaps the fact-checking should start with the media.

15 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:41:19am
The Campbell County Sheriff’s Office and Commonwealth’s Attorney’s office worked unsuccessfully to get the law changed after another baby died in the county in a similar case. Emerson says they asked two delegates and one state senator to take the issue up in the General Assembly. He says the three lawmakers refused because they felt the issue was too close to the abortion issue.

No one noticed the first time around, either?

16 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:41:27am

Oddly enough, if this were truly the law, it probably wouldn’t be something libruls snuck in, it would be something old that VA derived from English common law. Infanticide is a decided gray area in ECL, if I recall my college classes aright.

17 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:42:17am

re: #13 Ben Hur

Do you have any links raising that possibility?

Because I only find reports that they want to charge her, but won’t because of the above “law” - apparently none of the local media is aware of the law either.

But, but, they’re real journalists! They have layers of fact checkers and everything! and telephones! How can they get scooped by a mere blogger?

18 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:43:11am

re: #15 Ben Hur

No one noticed the first time around, either?

The source for that quote is the same investigator who lied about the statute. I don’t see any reason to take that statement at face value.

19 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:43:45am

re: #15 Ben Hur

No one noticed the first time around, either?

Well, clearly someone doesn’t like this law, and that’s probably because they clearly state that abortion cannot be considered infanticide. I do wonder what the source of this apparently influential urban myth is.

20 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:44:12am

re: #13 Ben Hur
Sheriff’s office investigates baby’s death

The baby and mother were taken to the hospital, but the baby was already dead, Emerson said. He said the mother was released from the hospital the next day.

An autopsy was performed on the baby on Saturday, but the sheriff’s office is waiting for a full report from the medical examiner’s office.

Emerson said Virginia law states that as long as the baby is still attached to the umbilical cord and placenta, it is not considered to be alive on its own.

This law and the findings of the medical examiner will determine whether or not charges will be brought in the case, he said.

If charges are not filed that means the death was accidental. There is no loophole that allows a mother to shoot or stab her baby after it’s born. They are accusing a woman who is probably innocent of murdering her child. The fact that they are lying about the existing laws means they’re also probably lying about the murder as well.

21 fizzlogic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:44:48am

It’s quite amazing those of the Religious Right have no problem lying to promote their POV. I guess it’s what Jesus would do.

22 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:45:14am

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Sheriff’s office investigates baby’s death

If charges are not filed that means the death was accidental. There is no loophole that allows a mother to shoot or stab her baby after it’s born. They are accusing a woman who is probably innocent of murdering her child. The fact that they are lying about the existing laws means they’re also probably lying about the murder as well.

Yes, the whole thing smells like a lie. The only source for the story is this “investigator,” and I’d be willing to bet that this guy is connected to the anti-abortion movement.

23 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:46:57am

re: #17 The Sanity Inspector

But, but, they’re real journalists! They have layers of fact checkers and everything! and telephones! How can they get scooped by a mere blogger?

OK.

I just want to know where KT read that someone involved on any level thinks it was “most likely” accidental because I’d rather not think that he was trying to insinuate that “mainstream right wing” is exploiting the accidental and tragic death of a newborn for political gain.

As far as I can see, Morrisey didn’t write the multiple reports Im seeing from the local media he’s getting his info from.

24 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:47:16am

Good Lord. Just when you think they can’t get any lower….they do.

25 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:47:40am

re: #23 Ben Hur

OK.

I just want to know where KT read that someone involved on any level thinks it was “most likely” accidental because I’d rather not think that he was trying to insinuate that “mainstream right wing” is exploiting the accidental and tragic death of a newborn for political gain.

As far as I can see, Morrisey didn’t write the multiple reports Im seeing from the local media he’s getting his info from.

It takes about 5 seconds to Google the Virginia statute.

26 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:48:01am

Somebody should come up with a short list of ten or so rules for morality. “Bearing false witness” should make the list.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:49:07am

re: #21 trendsurfer

It’s quite amazing those of the Religious Right have no problem lying to promote their POV. I guess it’s what Jesus would do.

They derive it from the text. You see, Jesus regularly scolds the Pharisees for holding to the letter of the law, and ignoring its spirit. The RR concludes from this that it doesn’t matter what the law actually says, it’s what you want it to say in your heart that matters.

///

28 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:49:27am

re: #26 Killgore Trout


It’s my favorite commandment. I can deal with almost anything other than someone who consciously, habitually lies about other people. It drives me crazy.

29 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:49:38am

re: #22 Charles

Yes, the whole thing smells like a lie. The only source for the story is this “investigator,” and I’d be willing to bet that this guy is connected to the anti-abortion movement.

I won’t take your bet, Charles.

30 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:50:54am

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Sheriff’s office investigates baby’s death

If charges are not filed that means the death was accidental. There is no loophole that allows a mother to shoot or stab her baby after it’s born. They are accusing a woman who is probably innocent of murdering her child. The fact that they are lying about the existing laws means they’re also probably lying about the murder as well.

I’m sorry, but that article refers to the law as well. So charges are not being filed because of misunderstanding of a law (which was to be changed in the past because of a similar case).

They are accusing a woman who is probably innocent of murdering her child. The fact that they are lying about the existing laws means they’re also probably lying about the murder as well

is quite a assumption from scant and innaccurate LOCAL media reports.

Unless they’re ALL in on it.

31 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:50:58am

re: #23 Ben Hur

OK.

I just want to know where KT read that someone involved on any level thinks it was “most likely” accidental because I’d rather not think that he was trying to insinuate that “mainstream right wing” is exploiting the accidental and tragic death of a newborn for political gain.

As far as I can see, Morrisey didn’t write the multiple reports Im seeing from the local media he’s getting his info from.

I don’t know if KT read it anywhere, but the fact that they released the mother definitely implies that they have no evidence of deliberate infanticide to hold her on. The presumption is one of innocence.

32 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:51:48am

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Somebody should come up with a short list of ten or so rules for morality. “Bearing false witness” should make the list.

What a super idea! I can’t believe no one ever thought of it before.

33 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:52:19am

re: #25 Charles

It takes about 5 seconds to Google the Virginia statute.

I understand that. As you did it, and as the local media reporting this event DID not do.

I was just wondering how it turned into framing an innocent women for political gain in what I’ve been reading.

Otherwise, I can’t believe they didn’t notice it the first time around.

They will now, I’m sure.

34 Racer X  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:53:12am

re: #21 trendsurfer

It’s quite amazing those of the Religious Right have no problem lying to promote their POV. I guess it’s what Jesus would do.

No. No its not.

Lying in the name of Jesus just pisses Jesus off more.

35 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:53:24am

It wasn’t just Ed Morrissey who completely failed to fact check this story — it’s all over the religious right and anti-abortion websites today. The only source for any of these stories is the “investigator” Tracy Emerson. Not a single one has bothered to look up the actual statute.

36 fizzlogic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:53:54am

re: #27 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, it’s no longer about a personal relationship with Jesus. Christianity has transformed into worshiping the fetus. Even atheists can get onboard with that. Praise Mary, bearer of THE immaculate fetus.

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:54:06am

re: #34 Racer X

No. No its not.

Lying in the name of Jesus just pisses Jesus off more.

A friend of mine—a religion teacher—was going to write a book called “The Hissy of the Christ: Righteous Wrath In The Modern World”. I don’t know if she ever got started.

38 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:54:08am

re: #31 SanFranciscoZionist

I don’t know if KT read it anywhere, but the fact that they released the mother definitely implies that they have no evidence of deliberate infanticide to hold her on. The presumption is one of innocence.

Or in their (mistaken) eyes, no grounds to hold her because the baby was attached.

39 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:54:37am

re: #22 Charles

Yes, the whole thing smells like a lie. The only source for the story is this “investigator,” and I’d be willing to bet that this guy is connected to the anti-abortion movement.

I found a Tracy Emerson in VA law enforcement here.

40 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:55:23am

Actually, the section of the Virginia code also has parts D, E & F (google Virginia Criminal Code - not hard to find - maybe more than 5 seconds, but not much). And Part F says:

F. The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.

Now, you will look at that and say - well, that’s where a physician has caused the death. But statutory interpretation is a slippery job, and the rule tends to be that you interpret statutes so as not to impose criminal liability. Here the argument would be: there are two ways to read the statute: the way you are reading it, and “performance of any act … in violation of this section OR performance of a procedure by a physician in violation of this section.”

In this case, you can follow the link and listen to a frustrated deputy sheriff who obviously wants to prosecute, and reference to a similar, earlier case. Also discussion about legislators who refuse to touch the statute for fear of alienating abortion activists.

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

41 zora  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:55:45am

ot: Rand Paul Spokesman Resigns Amid Controversy

barefootandprogressive.blogspot.com

This guy just resigned. How was he Rand Paul’s campaign spokesman? Racist may be ok but devil worshipers don’t go over so well in Kentuky. The crazy is strong in this one.

42 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:55:52am

Why are they quoting this investigator like he’s some expert on the law?

Sheriff Terry Gaddy is pleased to announce that the following personnel have been promoted as of August 1, 2008:
[…]
Tracy Emerson has been promoted to the rank of Investigator. Investigator Emerson is an 11 year veteran of the Campbell County Sheriff’s Office. He previously served as a Sergeant in the Traffic Unit of the Field Operations Division.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:55:56am

re: #38 Ben Hur

Or in their (mistaken) eyes, no grounds to hold her because the baby was attached.

So the cops also believe this nonsense?

44 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:10am

re: #40 auldtrafford

Actually, the section of the Virginia code also has parts D, E & F (google Virginia Criminal Code - not hard to find - maybe more than 5 seconds, but not much). And Part F says:

Now, you will look at that and say - well, that’s where a physician has caused the death. But statutory interpretation is a slippery job, and the rule tends to be that you interpret statutes so as not to impose criminal liability. Here the argument would be: there are two ways to read the statute: the way you are reading it, and “performance of any act … in violation of this section OR performance of a procedure by a physician in violation of this section.”

In this case, you can follow the link and listen to a frustrated deputy sheriff who obviously wants to prosecute, and reference to a similar, earlier case. Also discussion about legislators who refuse to touch the statute for fear of alienating abortion activists.

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

Really? So you think it’s OK to just put a big “OR” in there even though it’s not in the statute?

All righty then.

45 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:25am

re: #40 auldtrafford

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

Are you referring to anyone other than Tracy Emerson?

46 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:27am

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

So the cops also believe this nonsense?

Apparently everyone does down there!

47 Racer X  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:28am

re: #41 zora

ot: Rand Paul Spokesman Resigns Amid Controversy

[Link: barefootandprogressive.blogspot.com…]

This guy just resigned. How was he Rand Paul’s campaign spokesman? Racist may be ok but devil worshipers don’t go over so well in Kentuky. The crazy is strong in this one.

OMG! Is that Dexter in the band?

48 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:36am

re: #30 Ben Hur

There is no loophole that allows a mother to stab or shoot her baby. Have you noticed that nobody has a link to the law stating this? Where’s the law? Until somebody links to “loophole” I’ll assume it doesn’t exist.
They are awaiting the results of the autopsy to determine if a crime was committed. If they prosecute her and get a conviction then she’ll be guilty. Since no charges have been filed and there is no loophole that would allow her to kill her baby then she should be considered innocent.
Since this investigator is lying about the law it’s fairly safe to assume he’s lying about the woman killing her baby.

49 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:57:48am

re: #22 Charles

Even that makes little sense since a close reading of the statute would show that there’s no there there. It’s a bunch of sound and fury signifying someone wasn’t paying attention in class. Ed shouldn’t have pushed the story in the first place and clearly didn’t bother to check the Virginia law, which would have revealed the law’s specific mention of the umbilical cord and placenta.

But he did push the story, and for all the talk about having to get the law changed; the Virginia legislature last amended the statute in 2003. You’d think someone would have noticed then?

And even then, you would have been able to run a google search to find the news reports of the court challenges to the statute including the 4th Circuit Court of Appeals overturning the district court’s ruling that the statute was unconstitutional.

So, what we have is someone - the investigator most likely - who doesn’t know the state of the law, and either misrepresents the law or is lying about the law.

50 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:58:29am

re: #45 wrenchwench

Well, there are references to people who have tried to get the law changed in response to an earier case. I haven’t checke all that out; maybe it’s more lies.

51 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:58:54am

re: #49 lawhawk

So, what we have is someone - the investigator most likely - who doesn’t know the state of the law, and either misrepresents the law or is lying about the law.

He’s a traffic cop.

52 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:59:01am

re: #46 Ben Hur

Apparently everyone does down there!

No — the only source for the claim is Tracy Emerson. That’s not “everyone.”

53 LotharBot  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #40 auldtrafford

statutory interpretation is a slippery job…

I think it’s pretty clear from the very first line of the statute that anybody can be prosecuted for actually committing one of the acts listed. The final line simply notes that a woman (giving birth) can’t be held liable for anything a physician does.

Even Bill Clinton isn’t slippery enough to get past that by grouping the “or” differently.

54 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:00:57pm

re: #44 Charles

If I was a criminal lawyer defending a mother charged under this statute, that is exactly what I would do - especially if I was defending an indictment that failed to cite the full statute.

But, in that case, I would have a special interest in the case.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:01:11pm

re: #40 auldtrafford

Actually, the section of the Virginia code also has parts D, E & F (google Virginia Criminal Code - not hard to find - maybe more than 5 seconds, but not much). And Part F says:


Now, you will look at that and say - well, that’s where a physician has caused the death. But statutory interpretation is a slippery job, and the rule tends to be that you interpret statutes so as not to impose criminal liability. Here the argument would be: there are two ways to read the statute: the way you are reading it, and “performance of any act … in violation of this section OR performance of a procedure by a physician in violation of this section.”

In this case, you can follow the link and listen to a frustrated deputy sheriff who obviously wants to prosecute, and reference to a similar, earlier case. Also discussion about legislators who refuse to touch the statute for fear of alienating abortion activists.

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

Does this frustrated deputy sheriff have any case law indicating that such a case has been dismissed on such an interpretation of the law? Did he make an arrest in that case?

56 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:01:34pm

Morrissey is such a panderer to the religious right. What exactly are his qualifications for anyone caring about his opinions?

57 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:01:47pm

auld:

You are misreading subsection F, which states:

The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.

That section immunizes a woman against being charged for a crime where the doctor is violating the law.

It is not an immunization where the woman herself engages in infanticide.

58 Racer X  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #41 zora

ot: Rand Paul Spokesman Resigns Amid Controversy

[Link: barefootandprogressive.blogspot.com…]

This guy just resigned. How was he Rand Paul’s campaign spokesman? Racist may be ok but devil worshipers don’t go over so well in Kentuky. The crazy is strong in this one.

Holy shit there is some nasty stuff there.

Rand Paul goes *boom*.

59 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:02:12pm

re: #56 Basho

What exactly are his qualifications for anyone caring about his opinions?

Malkin gives him a paycheck?

60 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:02:47pm

re: #53 LotharBot

I think it’s pretty clear from the very first line of the statute that anybody can be prosecuted for actually committing one of the acts listed. The final line simply notes that a woman (giving birth) can’t be held liable for anything a physician does.

Even Bill Clinton isn’t slippery enough to get past that by grouping the “or” differently. (Emphasis added.)

I think you are entitled to your opinion.

61 fizzlogic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:09pm

re: #56 Basho

Morrissey is such a panderer to the religious right. What exactly are his qualifications for anyone caring about his opinions?

That he’s a panderer to the RR. Isn’t that his role at HA?

62 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #28 Obdicut

It’s my favorite commandment. I can deal with almost anything other than someone who consciously, habitually lies about other people. It drives me crazy.

Hmmm,,,Don’t mind if I covet your “goods” then, do ya !?!?!
//

63 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #58 Racer X

Rand Paul goes *boom*.

Is Rand Paul a hilarious way to make fun of Ron Paul, or is someone actually named that?

64 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:12pm

re: #23 Ben Hur

Early indications are that it’s a classic addition to the Too Good To Check file.

65 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:42pm

re: #54 auldtrafford

If you were a defense attorney you’d say that the law said “OR” where it didn’t?

The judge wouldn’t really look on that too kindly.

66 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:03:57pm

re: #40 auldtrafford

Most people, particularly judges, are able to parse subject and object given a simple sentence like this. Some people obviously are not, and are convinced that there are multiple interpretations available, but given that most folks in the judiciary have at least managed to pass high school grammar, I don’t think I’ll be losing any sleep over any non-existent “slippery slope” or other argument.

67 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:04:10pm

re: #62 sattv4u2

Covet all you want… touching ‘em is another thing.

68 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:04:41pm

re: #48 Killgore Trout

There is no loophole that allows a mother to stab or shoot her baby. Have you noticed that nobody has a link to the law stating this? Where’s the law? Until somebody links to “loophole” I’ll assume it doesn’t exist.
They are awaiting the results of the autopsy to determine if a crime was committed. If they prosecute her and get a conviction then she’ll be guilty. Since no charges have been filed and there is no loophole that would allow her to kill her baby then she should be considered innocent.
Since this investigator is lying about the law it’s fairly safe to assume he’s lying about the woman killing her baby.

And I’ll say it again, if it is the case (which to me it seems it is) that there is no loophole, the locals (people, pols, justice, media) are apparently un-aware of it, because it’s being referred to as fact.

They want to charge her but think they can’t.

She’s totally presumed innocents, of course, but so are those you are accusing from scant information, and probably pretty far away of a conspiracy.

69 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:04:42pm

re: #57 lawhawk

I stand corrected by someone whose name shows he knows more than I do. I pointed out my argument - the argument a defense lawyer would make. Glad you overruled it, Your Honor.

70 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:05:14pm

re: #63 Basho

Is Rand Paul a hilarious way to make fun of Ron Paul, or is someone actually named that?

The latter, a local politician.

71 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:05:17pm

re: #63 Basho

Is Rand Paul a hilarious way to make fun of Ron Paul, or is someone actually named that?

It’s his son. Rand is running for senate in Kentucky.

72 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:05:19pm

re: #66 SixDegrees

Glad you won’t lose any sleep over this case.

73 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:05:41pm

re: #40 auldtrafford

Actually, the section of the Virginia code also has parts D, E & F (google Virginia Criminal Code - not hard to find - maybe more than 5 seconds, but not much). And Part F says:

Now, you will look at that and say - well, that’s where a physician has caused the death. But statutory interpretation is a slippery job, and the rule tends to be that you interpret statutes so as not to impose criminal liability. Here the argument would be: there are two ways to read the statute: the way you are reading it, and “performance of any act … in violation of this section OR performance of a procedure by a physician in violation of this section.”

In this case, you can follow the link and listen to a frustrated deputy sheriff who obviously wants to prosecute, and reference to a similar, earlier case. Also discussion about legislators who refuse to touch the statute for fear of alienating abortion activists.

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

Irrelevant.

That’s basically indemnifying the mother from any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.

74 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:06:23pm

re: #63 Basho

Is Rand Paul a hilarious way to make fun of Ron Paul, or is someone actually named that?

Rand is Ron’s son.

He has his own set of campaign staff problems in the headlines this week.

75 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:06:55pm

I’m pretty sure that this is all about the abortion exception in the law. Someone wants to take that out, and doesn’t mind lying their butts off to do it.

76 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:07:03pm

I remember Morrissey made a big fuss about how the porn industry is out to get Christianity. Err… maybe if the religious right weren’t constantly trying to shut them down and harass the female performers?

77 Racer X  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:07:05pm

re: #71 Girth

It’s his son. Rand is running for senate in Kentucky.

Not after that myspace info gets out. Rand Paul is toast.

78 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:07:31pm

re: #64 The Sanity Inspector

Early indications are that it’s a classic addition to the Too Good To Check file.

I agree. Like the kid drawing the cross. That was a no effen brainer, IMHO, and I gladly joined in early on that one.

I’m going to wait on this one before brand Hot Air Molluch over posting a link to multiple articles from local media outlets that obviously don’t know there own laws.

79 Slap  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:07:42pm

Does it seem worth noting that Campbell County and Lynchburg share a border?

80 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:08:04pm

re: #69 auldtrafford

You want to disagree with my interpretation, that’s fine, but when there is no “or” anywhere in the statute, trying to divine one as a defense lawyer isn’t going to work. You can certainly try to make such an argument, but it wont be a successful one.

81 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:08:06pm

re: #71 Girth

It’s his son. Rand is running for senate in Kentucky.

Jeez… You can’t make this stuff up.

82 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:08:42pm

re: #78 Ben Hur

I agree. Like the kid drawing the cross. That was a no effen brainer, IMHO, and I gladly joined in early on that one.

I’m going to wait on this one before brand Hot Air Molluch over posting a link to multiple articles from local media outlets that obviously don’t know there own laws.

PIMF all over that beyatch.

83 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:09:03pm

re: #73 Gus 802

Irrelevant.

That’s basically indemnifying the mother from any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.

Indemnification is a civil law concept - this is criminal law. But I get the drift of your thinking … It’s a good argument.

84 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #72 auldtrafford

Glad you won’t lose any sleep over this case.

Ah - putting words in my mouth that it didn’t utter. Apparently, the discussion is over for you.

Normally, I’d suggest going back and reading what I actually wrote, but I realize I’m dealing with someone who isn’t capable of parsing a single, very simple sentence. So until entire paragraphs are within your grasp, perhaps you’ll just have to satisfy yourself with the hallucinatory words you attributed to me.

85 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:09:53pm

Frankly- I’d be shocked if any state “allowed” a woman to kill her child and get away with it because of an umbilical cord. It just defies logic.

86 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:10:51pm

re: #57 lawhawk

That section immunizes a woman against being charged for a crime where the doctor is violating the law.

It is not an immunization where the woman herself engages in infanticide.


Repeated and bolded because it’s an important point. I notice that some politician was eager to introduce a new law which would change this part of the law. I suspect that’s what this is really about.

87 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:11:07pm

re: #83 auldtrafford

Indemnification is a civil law concept - this is criminal law. But I get the drift of your thinking … It’s a good argument.

It’s essentially what Lawhawk said. The or is just connecting “an act” and “a procedure.” An act by the physician can be outside of a (medical) procedure such as choking or smothering. So an act by a physician means a non-medical procedure.

88 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:11:27pm

re: #77 Racer X

Not after that myspace info gets out. Rand Paul is toast.

Wow. Yeah, that, uh….that’s bad.

89 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:12:02pm

re: #69 auldtrafford

Getting snide with lawhawk isn’t going to help your argument.

90 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:12:25pm

re: #80 lawhawk

Well, she’s not being charged. Sounds like she’s got the benefit of somebody’s argument. From the taped interview, it sounds like the desire is there on the part of law enforcement. … ?

91 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:12:58pm

re: #90 auldtrafford

Why would she be charged if they don’t have the cause of death yet?

92 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:12:59pm
93 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:13:22pm

re: #72 auldtrafford

Glad you won’t lose any sleep over this case.

I won’t. It sounds like a terrible thing, but if the local police are so ignorant of the law that they actually believe they can’t charge a woman with murdering a newborn, then they need to take a refresher course. If they released her because they have no evidence of wrongdoing, that is as it should be. Since the law IN NO WAY prevents them from bringing charges in the event of a crime, I have no moral indignation to spare.

94 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:13:23pm

re: #92 joshlt

Try not logging in.

95 HoosierHoops  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:13:26pm

re: #76 Basho

I remember Morrissey made a big fuss about how the porn industry is out to get Christianity. Err… maybe if the religious right weren’t constantly trying to shut them down and harass the female performers?

Somebody should tie wrap Morrissey to a chair and make him watch Boogie Nights for 48 hours…Maybe the CIA could cull some interesting psych-ops.
/It gives Captain Ed a whole new meaning.

96 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #92 joshlt

Bye.

97 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:13:41pm

re: #83 auldtrafford

Indemnification is a civil law concept - this is criminal law. But I get the drift of your thinking … It’s a good argument.

Of course, you’re not exactly unbiased on this subject, are you?

littlegreenfootballs.com

98 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:14:37pm

re: #68 Ben Hur


She’s totally presumed innocents, of course, but so are those you are accusing from scant information, and probably pretty far away of a conspiracy.


The facts are so easy to check. That leads me to believe they are lying. Ed’s readers have also pointed out that the story isn’t true and the loophole doesn’t exist. If he made an error why wouldn’t he correct it. He knows it’s not true but he’s happy to run the story anyways. I’ll say the same for the investigator. He’s not stupid and he almost certainly knows the law. He’s most likely lying to advance an agenda. The fact that he’s accusing a woman who is most likely innocent doesn’t seem to bother him. It’s despicable.

99 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:14:39pm

re: #92 joshlt

Is it really that difficult to, you know, just leave? I mean, the doors may not be labeled, but if you keep pushing on them over and over again and they still don’t open, try pulling.

100 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:14:48pm

re: #90 auldtrafford

Well, she’s not being charged. Sounds like she’s got the benefit of somebody’s argument. From the taped interview, it sounds like the desire is there on the part of law enforcement. … ?

That’s the point.

The video reports says that the investigators want to but can’t because of this law.

Now that it’s been publicized that their view is whack, we’ll see what happens.

101 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:15:14pm

Chuck Norris says that if this law were in the books during biblical times there would have been no Jesus.

102 wee fury  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:15:23pm

re: #94 Sharmuta

Try not logging in.

But, but, but, then that means he/she will have to accept responsibility! The horror.

103 zora  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:15:39pm

re: #92 joshlt

Just don’t come back and consider it deleted. Why no good bye cruel world speech?

104 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #98 Killgore Trout

The facts are so easy to check. That leads me to believe they are lying. Ed’s readers have also pointed out that the story isn’t true and the loophole doesn’t exist. If he made an error why wouldn’t he correct it. He knows it’s not true but he’s happy to run the story anyways. I’ll say the same for the investigator. He’s not stupid and he almost certainly knows the law. He’s most likely lying to advance an agenda. The fact that he’s accusing a woman who is most likely innocent doesn’t seem to bother him. It’s despicable.

Well, now that this is out in the open, I’m confident someone will step in if necessary.

Unless Boss Hog is still running things down there.

105 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:16:21pm

re: #97 Charles

Of course, you’re not exactly unbiased on this subject, are you?

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com…]

No, I’m not; I have an opinion. Most people have an opinion on this issue. I know you do - and I respect it. Disagree, but I respect it.

106 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:16:48pm

re: #89 Sharmuta

Getting snide with lawhawk any of us isn’t going to help your argument.

ftfy ,,,,

107 LotharBot  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:17:57pm

re: #80 lawhawk

You want to disagree with my interpretation, that’s fine, but when there is no “or” anywhere in the statute

There actually is. The problem with auldt’s argument is that he’s trying to twist the sentence to group the “or” extremely unnaturally:

“The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on (the performance of any act) [presumably her own] or (procedure by a physician) in violation of this section.”

That particular grouping is very difficult. I’m not sure it can be done without serious violations of the grammar, and therefore, I don’t buy auldt’s argument that one could read the statute that way. Of course, the right reading of the sentence is:

“The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any (act or procedure) by a physician in violation of this section.”

108 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:18:12pm

re: #105 auldtrafford

No, I’m not; I have an opinion. Most people have an opinion on this issue. I know you do - and I respect it. Disagree, but I respect it.

What “issue” is that?

This story is nothing but deceptive red meat for the anti-abortion crowd — and it has nothing to do with abortion.

109 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:19:38pm

Bye bye to the HotAir member.

110 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:20:34pm

re: #102 wee fury

But, but, but, then that means he/she will have to accept responsibility! The horror.

I know! Imagine a member of the party of personal responsibility taking some actual personal responsibility. The mind boggles.

111 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:21:00pm

Well, we can also look to the legislative history, and again, there’s no “or” clause in the statute.

The summary states:

The mother cannot be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.

Going further, this summary provides the following:

The mother would not be subject to prosecution under the proposed statute, nor would anyone performing the procedure when it was necessary to prevent the death of the mother, so long as every reasonable effort were made to preserve the life of the infant.

That is not the situation presented here.

112 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:21:14pm

re: #99 SixDegrees

Is it really that difficult to, you know, just leave? I mean, the doors may not be labeled, but if you keep pushing on them over and over again and they still don’t open, try pulling.

That would never do! It’s very important to the flouncer to let Daddy know how much they hate him.

113 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:22:10pm

re: #108 Charles

What “issue” is that?

This story is nothing but deceptive red meat for the anti-abortion crowd — and it has nothing to do with abortion.

The story - however it turns out - has the potential to offer the opportunity for discussing the issue of when human “tissue” becomes life. That’s the “issue”. You have your opinion about that; I have mine. And even where our opinions do not differ on that issue, there is the “issue” of balancing interests - mother, fetus, society. All that.

Look, you strike a balance at one point. I at another. I just got into this because there was part of the statute that could be relevant that wasn’t part of the discussion until I mentioned it.

That’s all.

114 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:22:48pm

Here’s the likely reason for pushing this bogus story….

Statement from State Senator Newman on killing of newborn

I suspect they’re going to try to introduce wording that would allow them to prosecute doctors for performing abortions because the fetus was still attached to the umbilical cord.

115 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:23:06pm

re: #110 Sharmuta

I know! Imagine a member of the party of personal responsibility taking some actual personal responsibility. The mind boggles.

It never ceases to amaze me.

“I no longer wish to have reasoned debate on issues and would point you to websites that will tell you exactly what you want to hear, and do it in an extremely incendiary manner so you can get your righteous indignation fix every day.”

Whatever happened to rugged individualism?

116 Slap  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:23:08pm

Whoops — Charles, I hit the wrong button then corrected myself on your 108. (BAD mouse.)

117 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:23:20pm

re: #113 auldtrafford

The story - however it turns out - has the potential to offer the opportunity for discussing the issue of when human “tissue” becomes life.

Pretty sure that’s the entire motivation for pimping this false claim in the first place.

118 HoosierHoops  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:23:49pm

re: #106 sattv4u2

ftfy ,,,

I was called disingenuous the other night.. So I went to Wal-Mart and bought a disingenuous electric collar and every time I type something that I don’t mean it shocks me..
/ I look like a 16 yr old boy who’s girlfriend just discovered how to give Hickeys..
//

119 subsailor68  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:24:02pm

I need the help of our legal folks here (like lawhawk) to see if I understand this. From Charles’ quotes in the post:

First, it appears the investigator believes the mother “smothered a newborn infant”. Isn’t that the most important issue? Did she or didn’t she?:

“local investigator” in Virginia who claims that a woman who smothered a newborn infant cannot be charged with a crime because of a statute that says as long as the umbilical cord is still attached to a baby, the mother can do anything she wants with it — even kill it

However, the investigator takes the position that the mother can’t be charged under existing law:

“In the state of Virginia as long as the umbilical cord is attached and the placenta is still in the mother, if the baby comes out alive the mother can do whatever she wants to with that baby to kill it.“, says Investigator Tracy Emerson.

But, as Charles posted, that’s not the law:

For the purposes of this section, “human infant who has been born alive” means a product of human conception that has been completely or substantially expelled or extracted from its mother, regardless of the duration of pregnancy, which after such expulsion or extraction breathes or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached.

So, in my possibly incorrect understanding, the main issue is - did she, or did she not - smother the infant? If she did, Virginia law says she smothered an infant who was defined as “alive”, and the fact that the investigator is incorrect on the law is irrelevant. She should be charged.

Am I missing something?

120 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:24:16pm

re: #107 LotharBot

The “or” we’re questioning is auld’s interpretation of the statute as above, not within section F, where the sentence when taken as a whole immunizes the woman for actions by the doctor.

121 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #117 Sharmuta

Well, I would disagree with the way you phrase it, but the gist of what you say is obviously correct.

122 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:24:18pm

re: #113 auldtrafford

The story - however it turns out - has the potential to offer the opportunity for discussing the issue of when human “tissue” becomes life.

No it doesn’t. The law is already in place, and it is very clear. There’s no such issue here at all, except in the imagination of some people who really, really want this to be about abortion, even though it isn’t.

123 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #119 subsailor68


So, in my possibly incorrect understanding, the main issue is - did she, or did she not - smother the infant?


Probably not. If there was evidence she killed the child she would be charged.

124 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #119 subsailor68

If she indeed smothered the infant, then she should be charged with murder (assuming the infant was born alive).

125 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:25:45pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Here’s the likely reason for pushing this bogus story…

Statement from State Senator Newman on killing of newborn

I suspect they’re going to try to introduce wording that would allow them to prosecute doctors for performing abortions because the fetus was still attached to the umbilical cord.

This has nothing to do with abortions.

126 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:26:00pm

re: #125 Ben Hur

This has nothing to do with abortions.

OK.

Maybe a little.

127 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:26:27pm

re: #118 HoosierHoops

I was called disingenuous the other night.. So I went to Wal-Mart and bought a disingenuous electric collar and every time I type something that I don’t mean it shocks me..
/ I look like a 16 yr old boy who’s girlfriend just discovered how to give Hickeys..//

You mean ,,, you’re NOT !?!?

128 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:26:28pm

re: #119 subsailor68

So, in my possibly incorrect understanding, the main issue is - did she, or did she not - smother the infant? If she did, Virginia law says she smothered an infant who was defined as “alive”, and the fact that the investigator is incorrect on the law is irrelevant. She should be charged.

Am I missing something?

The fact that she wasn’t charged strongly suggests that the entire story is bogus, and that there was no evidence she “smothered the baby.”

129 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:26:58pm

re: #122 SixDegrees

No it doesn’t. The law is already in place, and it is very clear. There’s no such issue here at all, except in the imagination of some people who really, really want this to be about abortion, even though it isn’t.

It’s about bringing the discussion to when life starts. ‘auldtrafford’ already admitted it. They’re willing to push a bogus claim so that we start talking about when life starts, and eventually they’ll move to outlaw abortions because life starts at conception. That’s their reasoning, anyways.

130 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:27:30pm

re: #113 auldtrafford

The story - however it turns out - has the potential to offer the opportunity for discussing the issue of when human “tissue” becomes life. That’s the “issue”.

No. That is not the issue. There is no question about the legal status of the infant in this case.

131 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:28:09pm

re: #125 Ben Hur

This has nothing to do with abortions.


Yes it does. It’s a fake story promoted on almost every anti-abortion blog on the net. There’s a reason for that.

132 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:28:30pm

re: #126 Ben Hur

OK.

Maybe a little.

heh.

133 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:28:58pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

Yes it does. It’s a fake story promoted on almost every anti-abortion blog on the net. There’s a reason for that.

I was kidding.

134 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:29:00pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Here’s the likely reason for pushing this bogus story…

Statement from State Senator Newman on killing of newborn

I suspect they’re going to try to introduce wording that would allow them to prosecute doctors for performing abortions because the fetus was still attached to the umbilical cord.

Bingo, baby!

135 jaunte  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:29:07pm

Does anyone know anything about “Investigator Tracy Emerson” who seems to be the source of the suggestion that the baby’s death was not an accident?

136 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:29:25pm

re: #114 Killgore Trout

Here’s the likely reason for pushing this bogus story…

Statement from State Senator Newman on killing of newborn

I suspect they’re going to try to introduce wording that would allow them to prosecute doctors for performing abortions because the fetus was still attached to the umbilical cord.

The Campbell County Commonwealth’s Attorney and the incoming Attorney General, Ken Cuccinelli agree on the interpretation of the existing law that Emerson gave.

137 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:29:51pm

re: #135 jaunte

Wrenchwench and I both linked to a paper announcing his promotion. He’s a former traffic cop.

138 Slap  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:30:08pm

There are these brown clouds of ignorance that emanate from Lynchburg, and have since the ’70s.

Some guy named Jerry started pooting language-related noise from there. I suspect the legal “misunderstandings” might be the result of inhaling too much of the local verbal dung.

(Any Lizards from that part of VA, my advance apologies….)

139 subsailor68  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:30:20pm

re: #124 lawhawk

re: #128 Charles

Thanks guys! The only reason I asked was because the investigator appears to have used the word “smothered” and the reason no charges had been filed was because the investigator believed (wrongly if that had happened) that no law had been broken.

But yep, I get the point that the whole thing could be a bogus story.

140 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:30:28pm

re: #78 Ben Hur

I agree. Like the kid drawing the cross. That was a no effen brainer, IMHO, and I gladly joined in early on that one.

I’m going to wait on this one before brand Hot Air Molluch over posting a link to multiple articles from local media outlets that obviously don’t know there own laws.

Can’t go far wrong doing that. Still, if Charles and KT could check it out, then so could Ed.

141 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:30:29pm

re: #124 lawhawk

If she indeed smothered the infant, then she should be charged with murder (assuming the infant was born alive).

My very first question would be: what is a “local investigator”? A police officer? An attorney? A nosy neighbor? A blogger who likes to make shit up?

Which leads immediately to my next question: who is the “local investigator” in question?

It’s more than a little bit unusual to leave such details out of such a report. Normally, it would go more like “Police in blah-blah county are investigating this case. Lead investigator [insert actual name and title here] had this to say…”

This is starting to take on the ripe, earthy smell of a cow pasture.

142 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:32:45pm

re: #141 SixDegrees

My very first question would be: what is a “local investigator”? A police officer? An attorney? A nosy neighbor? A blogger who likes to make shit up?

Which leads immediately to my next question: who is the “local investigator” in question?

It’s more than a little bit unusual to leave such details out of such a report. Normally, it would go more like “Police in blah-blah county are investigating this case. Lead investigator [insert actual name and title here] had this to say…”

This is starting to take on the ripe, earthy smell of a cow pasture.

The local investigator in question is Tracy Emerson- former traffic cop.

143 JamesWI  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:33:07pm

re: #40 auldtrafford

Actually, the section of the Virginia code also has parts D, E & F (google Virginia Criminal Code - not hard to find - maybe more than 5 seconds, but not much). And Part F says:

Now, you will look at that and say - well, that’s where a physician has caused the death. But statutory interpretation is a slippery job, and the rule tends to be that you interpret statutes so as not to impose criminal liability. Here the argument would be: there are two ways to read the statute: the way you are reading it, and “performance of any act … in violation of this section OR performance of a procedure by a physician in violation of this section.”

In this case, you can follow the link and listen to a frustrated deputy sheriff who obviously wants to prosecute, and reference to a similar, earlier case. Also discussion about legislators who refuse to touch the statute for fear of alienating abortion activists.

So - all you Virginia lawyers commenting here: fine. But apparently there are some others also pretty familiar with Virginia law that don’t think it is as clear as you do.

I am a law student, and your version of “statutory interpretation” is absolutely, completely, totally ridiculous. Any court and any prosecutor would see that “or” as linking “acts” and “procedures” done “by a physician.”

144 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:33:49pm

re: #135 jaunte

Does anyone know anything about “Investigator Tracy Emerson” who seems to be the source of the suggestion that the baby’s death was not an accident?

Investigator Tracy Emerson began his career with the Campbell County Sheriff’s
Office on September 1, 1997 serving as a correctional officer in the Jail. In 1998 the
Sheriff’s Office joined the Blue Ridge Regional Jail Authority and became a separate
entity. At this time Tracy transferred to the Field Division of the Sheriff’s Office. He
remained in the Field Division until the year 2000 when he transferred to the
Administrative Services Division and served as a School Resource Officer for Altavista
High School. Inv. Emerson remained as a SRO through 2003. In 2003 Tracy was
transferred to the Investigations Division as a Narcotics Deputy. He served there for
three years and assisted with many undercover operations resulting in numerous drug arrests in Campbell County.
In 2006, Sheriff Gaddy formed a new traffic division within the Field Division.
Tracy was promoted to the rank of Sergeant and served in this division enforcing traffic laws until July 2008.
On August 1, 2008, Tracy was promoted to the rank of Investigator and
transferred to the Investigations Division. Inv. Emerson has served on the Special
Response Team for the Sheriff’s Office for ten years in the capacity of a sniper.
Tracy is married, has one son, and resides in the Town of Altavista

145 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:34:13pm

re: #140 The Sanity Inspector

Can’t go far wrong doing that. Still, if Charles and KT could check it out, then so could Ed.

True.

And so can The Campbell County Commonwealth’s Attorney, incoming Attorney General, Ken Cuccinelli, Emerson, and the local media.

They could know, but not “know know.” Meaning pretend they don’t know.

146 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:35:35pm

What about the placenta wording?

…whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached.

Shouldn’t that be or the placenta is attached or detached?

147 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:35:40pm

re: #119 subsailor68


So, in my possibly incorrect understanding, the main issue is - did she, or did she not - smother the infant? If she did, Virginia law says she smothered an infant who was defined as “alive”, and the fact that the investigator is incorrect on the law is irrelevant. She should be charged.

Am I missing something?

Honestly, I am not sure. The issue SHOULD be whether they have evidence to charge her.

The kindest explanation, as regards Mr. Tracy Emerson, is that there is evidence, and that he honestly believes, for some reason, that the law will not let him bring charges.

The least charming is that he knows there is no evidence, and that the law would not prevent him bringing charges if there were, but that he is blatantly lying in order to advance a political agenda that has nothing to do with the case.

148 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:36:40pm

re: #126 Ben Hur

OK.

Maybe a little.

I think this has everything to do with abortion.

149 LotharBot  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:36:55pm

re: #108 Charles

This story is nothing but deceptive red meat for the anti-abortion crowd

As a proud part of the anti-abortion crowd, I totally agree.

The Virginia statute is clear. If the police have evidence the woman killed her child, then she can be charged either under this law or under normal murder laws. If they’re holding back, they either don’t have the evidence or don’t know the law.

Probably, this would be covered under normal (non-abortion-related) murder laws. The child was completely outside of his mother. The only way to connect it to abortion would be if a lawyer tried to stretch the “umbilical cord was still attached” angle. I could see a skeezy enough defense lawyer doing that. I could also see a skeezy enough anti-abortion lawyer doing that to stir the pot. Hence, deceptive red meat for the anti-abortion crowd.

re: #120 lawhawk

The “or” we’re questioning is auld’s interpretation of the statute as above, not within section F

Auld’s interpretation is based on section F.

He views section F as possibly providing immunity for the mother “for the performance of any act” (by herself), as well as providing the mother immunity for anything done by a physician. His interpretation is clearly wrong (like I said, Bill Clinton isn’t slick enough to get away with what he tried to pull).

150 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:37:40pm

re: #142 Sharmuta

The local investigator in question is Tracy Emerson- former traffic cop.

Thanks.

This story is beginning to take on the characteristics of another abortion myth - the one about an aborted fetus being cradled by a nurse for hours after it’s birth. Illinois, I think. And the same political circus now forming up went into it’s act there, too. Ultimately, it turned out the woman was a kook who made the whole thing up, and that the story was completely implausible for several other reasons. Yet it persists to this day, and is still widely circulated as truth.

151 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:37:45pm

re: #143 JamesWI

I am a law student, and your version of “statutory interpretation” is absolutely, completely, totally ridiculous. Any court and any prosecutor would see that “or” as linking “acts” and “procedures” done “by a physician.”

Good for you. I practiced for over 20 years, and I can see someone that is off to a good start. Although, I will warn you, anytime you see the “absolutely, competely, totally ridiculous” rubric tossed around - you know someone is vulnerable.

152 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:37:46pm

re: #146 Gus 802

What about the placenta wording?

Shouldn’t that be or the placenta is attached or detached?

No- because they’re establishing that the child is somehow still attached to its mother via the cord and placenta. If the placenta is detached, the child, whether the cord is cut or not, is no longer attached to its mother in any way.

153 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:37:46pm

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother….


Just send me “Moms” name and address I’ll happily mete out the appropriate punishment to this piece o crap.

Viper1 on December 18, 2009 at 3:32 PM

154 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:38:19pm

re: #148 SanFranciscoZionist

I think this has everything to do with abortion.

Humor, SFZ. Humor.

155 irish rose  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:38:25pm

The folks over at Hot Air are into red meat journalism, not factchecking. Factchecking requires diligence, and truthtelling requires moral integrity. Morrissey and his associates have neither.

156 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:38:29pm

re: #152 Sharmuta

No- because they’re establishing that the child is somehow still attached to its mother via the cord and placenta. If the placenta is detached, the child, whether the cord is cut or not, is no longer attached to its mother in any way.

OK. Just thinking aloud.

157 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:38:56pm

Terry Emerson is an investigator with the Campbell County sheriff’s office.

158 freetoken  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:39:03pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Definitely a HA comment of the day entry.

159 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:39:10pm

re: #154 Ben Hur

We missed your snark. Those sarc tags come in handy sometimes.

160 JamesWI  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:39:28pm

re: #151 auldtrafford

Good for you. I practiced for over 20 years, and I can see someone that is off to a good start. Although, I will warn you, anytime you see the “absolutely, competely, totally ridiculous” rubric tossed around - you know someone is vulnerable.

Or it just means that you are 100% wrong. But stick with your view there, buddy.

161 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:40:45pm

re: #150 SixDegrees

Thanks.

This story is beginning to take on the characteristics of another abortion myth - the one about an aborted fetus being cradled by a nurse for hours after it’s birth. Illinois, I think. And the same political circus now forming up went into it’s act there, too. Ultimately, it turned out the woman was a kook who made the whole thing up, and that the story was completely implausible for several other reasons. Yet it persists to this day, and is still widely circulated as truth.

And the woman herself is a bit of a heroine in some circles.

162 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:40:50pm

re: #158 freetoken

Definitely a HA comment of the day entry.

It certainly does add another dimension to the ugliness of this story. Not only are they lying and accusing an innocent woman of murder but they are also endangering her life.

163 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:40:52pm

re: #156 Gus 802

It’s alright. I think the law was covering every way the child would still be connected to mom, but it the placenta is detached, that’s it- the child is a separate being with zero attachments to any other person outside the womb.

164 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:41:21pm

re: #147 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly, I am not sure. The issue SHOULD be whether they have evidence to charge her.

The kindest explanation, as regards Mr. Tracy Emerson, is that there is evidence, and that he honestly believes, for some reason, that the law will not let him bring charges.

The least charming is that he knows there is no evidence, and that the law would not prevent him bringing charges if there were, but that he is blatantly lying in order to advance a political agenda that has nothing to do with the case.

I don’t think the decision to bring charges rests with Mr. Emerson anyway. If he really believed a murder had been committed, no matter how muddled his own interpretation of law might be, it would behoove him to take the suspect into custody and let the local prosecutor decide how to proceed.

Again, this whole story has a certain unpleasant stench about it.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:41:35pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother…

Oh my God.

166 freetoken  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:41:45pm

BTW the Randi thread is getting some of the stragglers… really headstrong denier type.

I’ll leave them to LVQ to manage…

167 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:41:54pm

re: #159 Killgore Trout

We missed your snark. Those sarc tags come in handy sometimes.

168 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:41:56pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Just vile!

169 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:42:27pm

re: #146 Gus 802

What about the placenta wording?


Shouldn’t that be or the placenta is attached or detached?

I’d assume they coverd that in the “whether or not” bit.

170 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:42:35pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother…

Agreed.

Effed up.

171 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:42:53pm

re: #169 The Sanity Inspector

I’d assume they coverd that in the “whether or not” bit.

That’s what I was thinking.

172 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:43:06pm

OT: Just so all the blackberry users know the Bolt browser for blackberry works great on LGF. You can even view the video links. I tested it on the morning thread since it was 300+ posts with no problems. It’s not as pretty as the opera mini 5 but since opera won’t let me post here they can bite me.

Posted from my bb.

173 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:43:07pm

re: #160 JamesWI

Or it just means that you are 100% wrong. But stick with your view there, buddy.

Seeing as how you are still a student, that would be, “Mr. Buddy” to you.

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:43:36pm

Sinverguenzas.

175 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:43:51pm

re: #172 RogueOne

OT: Just so all the blackberry users know the Bolt browser for blackberry works great on LGF. You can even view the video links. I tested it on the morning thread since it was 300+ posts with no problems. It’s not as pretty as the opera mini 5 but since opera won’t let me post here they can bite me.

Posted from my bb.

Thanks!

I’ll try it.

The one I use now stinks.

176 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:43:57pm

I don’t even know what this comment is supposed to mean…..



Sadly, guys – the kid is better off.

:(

RedNewEnglander on December 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM


Que?

177 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:44:28pm

re: #169 The Sanity Inspector

I’d assume they coverd that in the “whether or not” bit.

Gus was asking specifically why “detached” wasn’t included. In my opinion, it’s because a born child with a detached placenta would be considered unattached to mom and fall into a different legal category.

178 irish rose  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother…

Screenshot it.

179 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #177 Sharmuta

Gus was asking specifically why “detached” wasn’t included. In my opinion, it’s because a born child with a detached placenta would be considered unattached to mom and fall into a different legal category.

“Hatched” creates a whole new set of problems.

180 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:06pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

Means they’re reality is run by fictional accounts.

And they’re assholes. That, too.

181 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:10pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

They think that baby is better dead than with a mom who “killed” it.

182 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:37pm

A victory for fact checking!


Time, NY Times, AP, CNN, MSMBC, NBC, ABC, CBS are fact challenged every day but old Charlie at lgf finds Ed didn’t look at the actual law and now Hot Air can be added to his list. Heads Up Lizards…no more HOT AIR for you…Charlie says. What a tool…go take some more overnight pics and spare us all. LOL…like you were ever right leaning.

~B

Brian on December 18, 2009 at 3:31 PM

Reading his blog just now convinced me this story is bogus. *shrug*

fastestslug on December 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM

183 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:45:59pm

re: #175 Ben Hur

Thanks!

I’ll try it.

The one I use now stinks.

The Opera is really nice but this bolt works with LGF and youtube which is a lot better than the regular bb browser. Took me a couple of hours of testing them all but it was worth it. Now I can be a pain in your asses while I’m on the road.

184 JamesWI  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:46:03pm

re: #173 auldtrafford

Seeing as how you are still a student, that would be, “Mr. Buddy” to you.

A student with a much firmer grip on the tenets of statutory interpretation (and reality) than someone who has supposedly been practicing for 20 years … I’ll stick with buddy.

185 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:46:06pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

I don’t even know what this comment is supposed to mean…


Que?

It means they’ve decided this woman is a monster, so her child is better off dead than in the hands of such a one.

If this woman’s child died a natural death, this Emerson guy is on my list of ‘people I would send to hell if I were put in charge of that’.

186 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:46:23pm

re: #181 Sharmuta

They think that baby is better dead than with a mom who “killed” it.

Could be.

187 LotharBot  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:46:55pm

re: #176 Killgore Trout

I don’t even know what this comment is supposed to mean…

Trying to imply “at least the kid’s in heaven away from crazy mom”… or perhaps just “better not existing than existing with crazy mom”… because, you see, these non-fact-checked reports are enough to judge mom crazy and threaten to kill her.

188 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:47:02pm

re: #150 SixDegrees

Thanks.

This story is beginning to take on the characteristics of another abortion myth - the one about an aborted fetus being cradled by a nurse for hours after it’s birth. Illinois, I think. And the same political circus now forming up went into it’s act there, too. Ultimately, it turned out the woman was a kook who made the whole thing up, and that the story was completely implausible for several other reasons. Yet it persists to this day, and is still widely circulated as truth.

That nurse’s name already comes up when you search about this case.

189 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:47:07pm

re: #183 RogueOne

The Opera is really nice but this bolt works with LGF and youtube which is a lot better than the regular bb browser. Took me a couple of hours of testing them all but it was worth it. Now I can be a pain in your asses while I’m on the road.

You’re not sitting in a stall while posting, are you?

190 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:47:29pm

Speaking of hittin’ the road, I gotta bolt. Ha! Get it? Bolt. Cya folks.

191 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:47:50pm

re: #189 Ben Hur

You’re not sitting in a stall while posting, are you?

Are we allowed to post pics?

192 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:48:18pm

That guy who threatened murder probably worships the grand first-born baby killer in the sky.

193 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:48:30pm

re: #172 RogueOne

OT: Just so all the blackberry users know the Bolt browser for blackberry works great on LGF. You can even view the video links. I tested it on the morning thread since it was 300+ posts with no problems. It’s not as pretty as the opera mini 5 but since opera won’t let me post here they can bite me.

Posted from my bb.

Way to fight through the roadblocks!

194 Ben Hur  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:48:34pm

re: #191 RogueOne

Are we allowed to post pics?

Would be best not too, I suppose.

195 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:48:47pm

re: #186 Killgore Trout

They think the mother is a murderer, so therefore the baby is better off not having such a parent. Funny how they never apply this “logic” to women getting abortions.

196 Four More Tears  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:49:32pm

re: #191 RogueOne

Are we allowed to post pics?

Just imagine how much more creative flounces could get…

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:49:40pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

They think the mother is a murderer, so therefore the baby is better off not having such a parent. Funny how they never apply this “logic” to women getting abortions.

Perhaps they do—but they still want to kill this mom.

198 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:49:46pm

re: #185 SanFranciscoZionist

It means they’ve decided this woman is a monster, so her child is better off dead than in the hands of such a one.

If this woman’s child died a natural death, this Emerson guy is on my list of ‘people I would send to hell if I were put in charge of that’.

And how does the investigator, who thinks he showed up about ten hours after the birth, know for sure that the mother is not upset? She could be catatonic, for all we know.

199 jaunte  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:50:38pm

re: #197 SanFranciscoZionist

They’re using this mother as a stand-in for all the other ones they want to kill.

200 auldtrafford  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:51:03pm

re: #184 JamesWI

A student with a much firmer grip on the tenets of statutory interpretation (and reality) than someone who has supposedly been practicing for 20 years … I’ll stick with buddy.

Are you my 8th grade daughter? Sound just like her - and I’ve never seen the two of you together.

Well, gotta go. Been nice chatting, Honey, see you tonight after your practice.

201 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:51:39pm

re: #195 Sharmuta

They think the mother is a murderer, so therefore the baby is better off not having such a parent. Funny how they never apply this “logic” to women getting abortions.

And there’s still the matter of:

1. Psyche-evaluation of mother.
2. Full investigation (not by a former traffic cop).
3. Crime scene investigation.
4. Medical examiner’s report (i.e. autopsy).

202 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:51:42pm

All the buttons seem to be working. I’ve only tested the reply function, new comments, and clicking on the last persons quote where it opens the thread starting with their comment. So far, so good. It also allows the bb auto edit function so it will pop in the proper punctuation for me which Opera wouldn’t do.

203 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:51:56pm

Man, a lot of trollish behavior today.

204 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:53:36pm

re: #200 auldtrafford

None of that added to your argument. You look like an 8th grader yourself with that comment. No offense to your daughter intended.

205 RogueOne  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:53:50pm

re: #196 JasonA

Just imagine how much more creative flounces could get…

Sounds like it would be hilarious but probably a really bad idea.

206 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:53:59pm

re: #201 Gus 802

And there’s still the matter of:

1. Psyche-evaluation of mother.
2. Full investigation (not by a former traffic cop).
3. Crime scene investigation.
4. Medical examiner’s report (i.e. autopsy).

It is interesting—usually when they cover a really obvious, brutal, murder, the investigators tell the press stuff like “We’re waiting for details to emerge,” or “The young man found a tthe scene is a person of interest”.

In this case, which is clearly not clear-cut, the investigator just announces that she done it, but the law can’t help us, folks?

207 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:54:15pm

Wait, is WSET perpetuating falsehoods about this case? I expect it from gibbering hyper-right-wing blogs, I didn’t expect it from an ABC affiliate.

208 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:54:17pm

re: #182 Killgore Trout

A victory for fact checking!

Gotta love that. Instead of owning up and admitting the story is false, they spew some more hatred at me.

209 JamesWI  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:55:12pm

re: #200 auldtrafford

Are you my 8th grade daughter? Sound just like her - and I’ve never seen the two of you together.

Well, gotta go. Been nice chatting, Honey, see you tonight after your practice.

Your posts have been filled with snark despite having no basis in reality, from the “all the Virginia lawyers here” comment, to pointing out that indemnification is a civil concept to sound smart. I am simply responding in kind, except my snark is backed up with reality.

210 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:55:21pm

re: #207 WindUpBird

Wait, is WSET perpetuating falsehoods about this case? I expect it from gibbering hyper-right-wing blogs, I didn’t expect it from an ABC affiliate.

This guy Tracy Emerson has been making the rounds of the news media. And none of them can be bothered to actually look up the statute, apparently.

211 jaunte  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:55:27pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

In this case, which is clearly not clear-cut, the investigator just announces that she done it, but the law can’t help us, folks?


He’s an investigator, judge and jury rolled into one.

212 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:56:30pm

re: #206 SanFranciscoZionist

It is interesting—usually when they cover a really obvious, brutal, murder, the investigators tell the press stuff like “We’re waiting for details to emerge,” or “The young man found a tthe scene is a person of interest”.

In this case, which is clearly not clear-cut, the investigator just announces that she done it, but the law can’t help us, folks?

Clearly the law covers it. I don’t know what’ going on. Tracy Emerson was completely unprofessional in the news interview.

The mother should get a lawyer and consider legal action.

213 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:56:50pm

re: #128 Charles

The fact that she wasn’t charged strongly suggests that the entire story is bogus, and that there was no evidence she “smothered the baby.”

There is something that I just don’t understand. Why is the “religious right” so eager to condemn this woman? What would Jesus say? “Judge not lest you be judged.” “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” Even the Pharisees, whom Jesus disagreed with, taught “judge every person favorably.”

This “religious judgment” is more like Sharia than Christianity or Judaism.

214 irish rose  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:57:13pm

Not in the moode to wade into that cesspool today, is anyone over there calling for a retraction or correction? Anyone at all?

215 lawhawk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:57:54pm

The ABC news report claims that the infant was still attached to the mother via the umbilical and placenta after the mother gave birth. It was several hours before 911 was called, and when that happened, the baby was found already deceased.

The law isn’t as Emerson portrays, and it looks like this is more of a tragic accident than anything else - though if the investigation/autopsy finds otherwise, then charges could be pending.

216 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:58:32pm

re: #210 Charles

This guy Tracy Emerson has been making the rounds of the news media. And none of them can be bothered to actually look up the statute, apparently.

He has the support of the Commonwealth Attorney and the incoming Attorney General.

217 irish rose  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 12:58:54pm

re: #213 Alouette

This “religious judgment” is more like Sharia than Christianity or Judaism.

Exactly.

218 Professor Chaos  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:00:02pm

re: #213 Alouette

There is something that I just don’t understand. Why is the “religious right” so eager to condemn this woman? What would Jesus say? “Judge not lest you be judged.” “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” Even the Pharisees, whom Jesus disagreed with, taught “judge every person favorably.”

This “religious judgment” is more like Sharia than Christianity or Judaism.

Too many people are incapable of self-reflection. And their hate keeps them warm.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:03:44pm

re: #213 Alouette

There is something that I just don’t understand. Why is the “religious right” so eager to condemn this woman? What would Jesus say? “Judge not lest you be judged.” “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” Even the Pharisees, whom Jesus disagreed with, taught “judge every person favorably.”

This “religious judgment” is more like Sharia than Christianity or Judaism.

Worse than sharia. Sharia is a system of law. This is encouraging people to regard their worst instincts as God-sent, and act on them.

220 irish rose  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:04:15pm

I suspect that many of the folks over at Hot Air who are condemning this mother are the same people who praised the murder of Dr. Tiller.

221 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:04:28pm

re: #208 Charles

Gotta love that. Instead of owning up and admitting the story is false, they spew some more hatred at me.

You got through to at least one of them.

Reading his blog just now convinced me this story is bogus. *shrug*

fastestslug on December 18, 2009 at 3:42 PM

222 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:05:05pm

re: #221 beekiller

He truly IS the fastest slug!

223 Jack Burton  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:07:26pm

re: #221 beekiller

How long until he’s run out of town over there for not falling into line with the kook agenda?

224 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:07:32pm
18.2-71.1. Partial birth infanticide; penalty.

I just wanted to point out again the reasoning for this wording:

C. For the purposes of this section, “human infant who has been born alive” means a product of human conception that has been completely or substantially expelled or extracted from its mother, regardless of the duration of pregnancy, which after such expulsion or extraction breathes or shows any other evidence of life such as beating of the heart, pulsation of the umbilical cord, or definite movement of voluntary muscles, whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached.

A detached placenta would no longer qualify the birth as “partial”.

225 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:09:23pm

re: #222 SanFranciscoZionist

He truly IS the fastest slug!

He/she cannot be a wingnut since his/her username is a Tori Amos song reference!

And I’m just having thoughts of Marianne. She could outrun the fastest slug.

226 Jeff In Ohio  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:09:40pm

re: #77 Racer X

Not after that myspace info gets out. Rand Paul is toast.

I posted a link to the local news coverage in the overnight spinoff section. Dudes also a truther, but I wouldn’t go so far as to call him a ‘satanist’ just because he plays in a metal band in spouts satantic bullshit. In my experience, that’s mostly theater. Unless your Danish.

Regardless, is the unfortunately named ‘Rand’ toast? You’d think, but then, it’s Kentucky. They got their Jean Richie’s and Wendell Barry’s, but also a tragically (Cato - uasge) under educated population who have a lot of historical grievances, real and imagined.

227 Mark Pennington  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:09:55pm

re: #223 ArchangelMichael

How long until he’s run out of town over there for not falling into line with the kook agenda?

Any minute now. ;)

228 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:10:04pm

Hmm…

If the news reports are correct that 911 was called hours after the birth, there might have been a complication. The afterbirth (passing of the placenta) shouldn’t take hours.

229 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:10:08pm

re: #210 Charles

This guy Tracy Emerson has been making the rounds of the news media. And none of them can be bothered to actually look up the statute, apparently.

Hmmm…the parallels with the abortion nurse story mentioned above grow ever stronger. It was the Caring Nurse of the story who peddled it - to news media, not to police, when in fact the events she described would have violated dozens of local, state and Federal laws if true.

I’ll put cold, hard cash down right now that in Tracy’s recent past, we’ll find a very strong connection to anti-abortion groups if anyone looks.

Anyone heard what the local prosecutor thinks of our investigator’s narrative?

230 reine.de.tout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:10:08pm

Whatever my personal feelings are about abortion (and it’s no secret I am very anti-abortion), it’s my job to treat people with respect, kindness and compassion; it’s their job to work out their relationship with God.

231 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:10:53pm

re: #221 beekiller

Whoever said that has probably already been gutted and hung out to dry for jerky.

232 HoosierHoops  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:12:01pm

re: #230 reine.de.tout

Whatever my personal feelings are about abortion (and it’s no secret I am very anti-abortion), it’s my job to treat people with respect, kindness and compassion; it’s their job to work out their relationship with God.

You have a heart of gold

233 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:14:41pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother…

Because that’s what Jesus would do….?

234 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:15:41pm

re: #224 Sharmuta

A detached placenta would no longer qualify the birth as “partial”.

The way I read it the birth is “partial” only until the baby has been “completely or substantially expelled or extracted”. Once the baby is out of the mother the birth is no longer partial, and the cutting of the umbilical cord is irrelevant.

235 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:16:20pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Hmm…

If the news reports are correct that 911 was called hours after the birth, there might have been a complication. The afterbirth (passing of the placenta) shouldn’t take hours.

A lot of this doesn’t make sense. The baby was due that day, yet the mother gave birth in the night without waking the grandmother, and the father showed up after the sheriffs did. They said the grandmother would not be charged because “she didn’t know.” Either that’s an extremely dysfunctional household, or there’s a lot they aren’t telling us. Or both.

236 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:18:26pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

And 911 was called around 11:00 AM, and told there was a woman in labor. I could believe somebody else killed the baby, and a big coverup is under way.

237 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:20:11pm

Thought on this report:

When deputies arrived, they discovered the baby had actually been born around 1 a.m., about 10 hours earlier. Investigators said the baby was already dead when deputies got there.

From this I gather that the deputies were told that the baby was born around 1 AM. Proper determination would have to be done by a qualified medical examiner on the scene. Deputies would not be qualified to make this determination and thus be considered anecdotal evidence.

Investigators told WSLS the baby’s airway was blocked. They said the baby was under bedding and had been suffocated by her mother.

A blocked airway would indicate that there was material in the babies airway causing the blockage. The information that it was found “under bedding” could also indicate that it was smothered or simply covered.

Does Campbell County, VA have a medical examiner? I could not find one on their official website. A previous investigation indicates that they use the state medical examiner in Roanoke.

238 Kewalo  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:20:14pm

OT there was some talk yesterday about estate taxes. I happened across the blog of the Director of the CBO and thought this was interesting.

cboblog.cbo.gov

239 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:21:08pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Hmm…

If the news reports are correct that 911 was called hours after the birth, there might have been a complication. The afterbirth (passing of the placenta) shouldn’t take hours.

There’s no reference to anyone else being there. I wonder if she gave birth alone, perhaps lost consciousness at some point…? Might have lost blood and simply been too weak to expel the placenta.

Something deeply sad happened, one way or another.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:21:39pm

re: #229 SixDegrees

Hmmm…the parallels with the abortion nurse story mentioned above grow ever stronger. It was the Caring Nurse of the story who peddled it - to news media, not to police, when in fact the events she described would have violated dozens of local, state and Federal laws if true.

I’ll put cold, hard cash down right now that in Tracy’s recent past, we’ll find a very strong connection to anti-abortion groups if anyone looks.

Anyone heard what the local prosecutor thinks of our investigator’s narrative?

I’m not taking your bet, dude.

241 Stanley Sea  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:22:06pm

re: #239 SanFranciscoZionist

There’s no reference to anyone else being there. I wonder if she gave birth alone, perhaps lost consciousness at some point…? Might have lost blood and simply been too weak to expel the placenta.

Something deeply sad happened, one way or another.

That seems to have nothing to do with abortion.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:22:54pm

re: #233 Summer

Because that’s what Jesus would do…?

Yeah. Well known-fact. Jesus threatened to kill people who behaved immorally all the time. He was, like, totally gung-ho on stoning adulteresses…

…huh…

…wait…

…oh. Well, I bet he would have made an exception in THIS case!

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:24:26pm

re: #237 Gus 802

Thought on this report:


A blocked airway would indicate that there was material in the babies airway causing the blockage. The information that it was found “under bedding” could also indicate that it was smothered or simply covered.

Does Campbell County, VA have a medical examiner? I could not find one on their official website. A previous investigation indicates that they use the state medical examiner in Roanoke.

If she passed out, or was semiconscious, she could easily have pulled bedding over herself and the child, accidentally smothering it.

244 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:24:45pm

re: #235 wrenchwench

A lot of this doesn’t make sense. The baby was due that day, yet the mother gave birth in the night without waking the grandmother, and the father showed up after the sheriffs did. They said the grandmother would not be charged because “she didn’t know.” Either that’s an extremely dysfunctional household, or there’s a lot they aren’t telling us. Or both.

Yeah- it’s not like full term babies accidentally slip out. I could see complications causing the mother to pass out afterwards. The birth, if unassisted, could have been damaging to the mother. Who knows?

245 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:25:11pm

re: #243 SanFranciscoZionist

If she passed out, or was semiconscious, she could easily have pulled bedding over herself and the child, accidentally smothering it.

Just found another news story. The body was sent to Roanoke. So they don’t have a county coroner.

246 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:26:13pm

re: #237 Gus 802

Does Campbell County, VA have a medical examiner? I could not find one on their official website. A previous investigation indicates that they use the state medical examiner in Roanoke.

From this link:

The medical examiner says the baby was born healthy. An autopsy is being performed.
247 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:28:49pm

re: #246 wrenchwench

Thanks. Read about a pending autopsy earlier. That means all opinions are being made without benefit of an autopsy. It doesn’t look like any professional cursory medical exam was made at the scene.

248 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:29:43pm

I think we need Jack Bauer to look into this.

249 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:30:16pm

“The most difficult thing to represent digitally is suffering.”
— Robert Brault

250 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:30:58pm

re: #213 Alouette

There is something that I just don’t understand. Why is the “religious right” so eager to condemn this woman? What would Jesus say? “Judge not lest you be judged.” “Let the one who is without sin cast the first stone.” Even the Pharisees, whom Jesus disagreed with, taught “judge every person favorably.”

This “religious judgment” is more like Sharia than Christianity or Judaism.

Some folks tend towards self-righteousness which means they know more than you and they know what Jesus and/or God thinks better than you. I work with two women like this who absolutely see themselves as good Christians and they are the furthest thing from it.

In fact, one ran a red light and bragged, “Praise be his name! Thank you Jesus, I didn’t get a ticket.” So I asked her, “So Jesus is ok with you breaking the law?” She was pissed and said to me, “What would you know about it?” heh

Anyway, that’s my take.

251 Tiny alien kittens are watching you  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:36:22pm

re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah. Well known-fact. Jesus threatened to kill people who behaved immorally all the time. He was, like, totally gung-ho on stoning adulteresses…

…huh…

…wait…

…oh. Well, I bet he would have made an exception in THIS case!

Well, I’m sure thats what the “new and improved” Jesus in the Conservapedia translation of the bible will be like. Not the wimpy, hippie like, Jesus in the current translations.

252 Slap  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:40:34pm

re: #247 Gus 802

Oooooh, you said “professional”.

OK, I know this is a rank generalization…..but how often would one be prompted to use that term in reference to most small-town-WAY-outside-the-big-city police behavior?

Seriously, factoring out the idiot trumpeting of this story by all those incredibly advanced intellects at HA, does it not seem, based on what’s come forth so far, that this “officer’s” behavior has been not only unprofessional but possibly actionable? The sadness of the story — whatever the whole story turns out to be — is a separate issue unto itself. And it appears that this putz’s unprofessional desire to be NOTICED by the MEDIA will only exacerbate the mother’s pain if she’s innocent, but possibly complicate any case against her if, indeed, she’s guilty.

A steaming pile of crap, all around.

Think I need to go home and hug my cats.

253 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:43:52pm

re: #252 Slap

Ooooh, you said “professional”.

OK, I know this is a rank generalization…but how often would one be prompted to use that term in reference to most small-town-WAY-outside-the-big-city police behavior?

Seriously, factoring out the idiot trumpeting of this story by all those incredibly advanced intellects at HA, does it not seem, based on what’s come forth so far, that this “officer’s” behavior has been not only unprofessional but possibly actionable? The sadness of the story — whatever the whole story turns out to be — is a separate issue unto itself. And it appears that this putz’s unprofessional desire to be NOTICED by the MEDIA will only exacerbate the mother’s pain if she’s innocent, but possibly complicate any case against her if, indeed, she’s guilty.

A steaming pile of crap, all around.

Think I need to go home and hug my cats.

I had Boulder, Colorado in mind. That might ring a bell regarding a certain investigation.

It doesn’t really matter about the characterizations. If they all they had were a couple of deputies on the scene whose only experience was dealing with drug crimes and clear cut homicides unless they have specific experience with these types of deaths they won’t be done within professional guidelines.

254 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:45:38pm

re: #253 Gus 802

I had Boulder, Colorado in mind. That might ring a bell regarding a certain investigation.

It doesn’t really matter about the characterizations. If they all they had were a couple of deputies on the scene whose only experience was dealing with drug crimes and clear cut homicides unless they have specific experience with these types of deaths they won’t be done within professional guidelines.

I would say there aren’t many people in the country,,, no, the WORLD, that have specific experience with these types of deaths

255 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:50:07pm

I’m confused about this story. Didn’t it say that the paramedics came for the woman only to find the baby had been born 10 hours earlier and the child’s airway had been blocked? What does that mean? Did the baby choke on something? And why is she having a baby all alone (I’m assuming?) in her home? Did she have pre-natal care? Did she have an OB? Did she have INSURANCE? It’s so confusing I don’t know how anyone could make a judgment on this bizarre bit of info.

256 SixDegrees  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:51:37pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

I would say there aren’t many people in the country,,, no, the WORLD, that have specific experience with these types of deaths

Hard to say. As yet, I don’t trust any of the details I’ve read, so in my opinion we don’t even know exactly what happened, and probably won’t for some time.

Meanwhile, infanticide is distressingly common both in the US and elsewhere. Not an everyday occurrence in America, perhaps, but by no means unheard of in most areas. Police are certainly trained for it, and quite a few have actually encountered cases of it.

257 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:52:07pm

re: #254 sattv4u2

I would say there aren’t many people in the country,,, no, the WORLD, that have specific experience with these types of deaths

Well, regardless. That wasn’t my overall point. My point is that two deputies showing up at this crime scene isn’t exactly a “crime scene investigation.” Also, trotting out Terry Emerson as a spokesman isn’t exactly a confidence builder.

I think we should call out a 3,000 hour rule.

258 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:52:20pm

re: #255 marjoriemoon

That’s what I’ve been wondering. I’ve also been thinking, isn’t the first thing they do when a baby is born is use suction to clean the stuff out of its little mouth and nose? If there’s obstruction there, isn’t that a normal thing?

259 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:52:33pm

Just a note. This case has nothing to do with abortion.

260 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:52:34pm
261 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:53:03pm

Here come the bottom feeders.

262 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:54:19pm

re: #257 Gus 802

Well, regardless. That wasn’t my overall point. My point is that two deputies showing up at this crime scene isn’t exactly a “crime scene investigation.” Also, trotting out Terry Emerson as a spokesman isn’t exactly a confidence builder.

I think we should call out a 3,000 hour rule.

Correct, but they are typically first responders, NOT a Medical Examiner and forensic detectives

263 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:54:33pm

re: #255 marjoriemoon

I’m confused about this story. Didn’t it say that the paramedics came for the woman only to find the baby had been born 10 hours earlier and the child’s airway had been blocked? What does that mean? Did the baby choke on something? And why is she having a baby all alone (I’m assuming?) in her home? Did she have pre-natal care? Did she have an OB? Did she have INSURANCE? It’s so confusing I don’t know how anyone could make a judgment on this bizarre bit of info.

One article said she did have pre-natal care. They don’t say anything about the rest, like whether the baby’s airway was ever clear. A good autopsy should reveal some information. This happened a week ago. I wonder how long until there is new info? I didn’t see anything newer than Dec. 16th, and that was a politician’s press release.

264 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:55:49pm
265 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:57:29pm

re: #262 sattv4u2

Correct, but they are typically first responders, NOT a Medical Examiner and forensic detectives

Forensics! Was searching for that word before. Not sure if Campbell County has a unit according to this search.

266 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:58:47pm

re: #263 wrenchwench

One article said she did have pre-natal care. They don’t say anything about the rest, like whether the baby’s airway was ever clear. A good autopsy should reveal some information. This happened a week ago. I wonder how long until there is new info? I didn’t see anything newer than Dec. 16th, and that was a politician’s press release.

Right, the autopsy will show it. That could take weeks. If she had pre-natal care, I wonder why she didn’t get to the doctor. So much missing here.

267 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 1:59:33pm
268 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:00:05pm

re: #264 MandyManners

I don’t know what you said, SherpaDirka but, it musta’ been a doozy.

No comments, but -2 karma. lol That’s got to be a record of some sort.

269 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:01:04pm

re: #265 Gus 802

Forensics! Was searching for that word before. Not sure if Campbell County has a unit according to this search.

Lots of counties in the south don;t have their own,. They call in one from bigger cities. Not familiar with Cambell County/ population/ size/ etc

270 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:01:27pm
271 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:05pm
272 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:31pm

SHIRPADIRKEAR ‘


You’re Oh Fa TWO
Keep the bat on your shoulder, maybe you’ll draw a walk or get hit by a pitch

Other than that, I don’t think you’ll be staying in the major league long!

273 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:46pm

re: #271 SherpaDirka

You don’t learn too quick, do you?

274 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:02:58pm

re: #267 sherpadirka

Posting it 3x is not going to help you any.

If I don’t like what Charles prints, I come back when I want to read something I like. Novel idea, don’t you think?

275 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:03pm
276 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:23pm

re: #272 sattv4u2

SHIRPADIRKEAR ‘


You’re Oh Fa TWO
Keep the bat on your shoulder, maybe you’ll draw a walk or get hit by a pitch

Other than that, I don’t think you’ll be staying in the major league long!

STRIKE THREE


NO BALLS ,,, three strikes ,, OUCH !

277 ckb  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:27pm

1. My reading of the WSLS story and the professional biography of Emerson linked above tells me that “Investigator” is synonymous with “Detective” in that Sheriff’s office. So Emerson is an employee of the Sheriff’s office, a law enforcement officer.

2. I’m not sure it matters that this law enforcement officer thinks that if it is determined the baby was murdered, the killer cannot be prosecuted. It only matters what the local and state prosecutors think. I’d like to hear from them - they should have an opinion on Emerson’s comments.

3. This story is really about Emerson’s comments, including his allusion to a previous similar case and his professional opinion that this potential murder cannot be prosecuted. I think the comments alone, from a senior member of the Sheriffs office, are newsworthy, even if Emerson is wrong. As I hope he is.

4. The story is only about abortion insofar as Emerson’s opinion that the potential murder here falls under the partial birth abortion law. Again, I’d like to hear a prosecutor’s opinion on that. As a matter of fact, I’d like to hear anyone else’s opinion. Can we assume there is implicit agreement from the Sheriff and prosecutors since we haven’t heard from him? This all hit the news 3 days ago. Where is everyone?

5. I think insinuating that Emerson is a ideologue and/or fabricated the whole thing is premature.

278 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:30pm

re: #269 sattv4u2

Lots of counties in the south don;t have their own,. They call in one from bigger cities. Not familiar with Cambell County/ population/ size/ etc

Yeah. It’s a matter of funding sometimes.

279 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:03:35pm
280 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:07pm

Sherpadirka be gone!

281 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:04:36pm

Crap- answer an email, and I miss the fun. :(

282 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:05:54pm

re: #281 Sharmuta

Crap- answer an email, and I miss the fun. :(

It was the usual “why aren’t you posting about this instead of this” comments. Did it three times in a row.

283 jaunte  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:07:32pm

re: #277 ckb

5. I think insinuating that Emerson is a ideologue and/or fabricated the whole thing is premature.


Emerson was premature in announcing that this is an un-prosecutable murder.

284 ckb  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:09:31pm

re: #283 jaunte

Emerson was premature in announcing that this is an un-prosecutable murder.

Agreed, but only if he is wrong. If he is wrong he should be taken to task for it.

285 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:09:43pm

re: #277 ckb

[…]

2. I’m not sure it matters that this law enforcement officer thinks that if it is determined the baby was murdered, the killer cannot be prosecuted. It only matters what the local and state prosecutors think. I’d like to hear from them - they should have an opinion on Emerson’s comments.

[…]

4. The story is only about abortion insofar as Emerson’s opinion that the potential murder here falls under the partial birth abortion law. Again, I’d like to hear a prosecutor’s opinion on that. As a matter of fact, I’d like to hear anyone else’s opinion. Can we assume there is implicit agreement from the Sheriff and prosecutors since we haven’t heard from him? This all hit the news 3 days ago. Where is everyone?

5. I think insinuating that Emerson is a ideologue and/or fabricated the whole thing is premature.

From the second link at the top, which is a press release from State Senator Newman:

Campbell County Commonwealth’s Attorney Neil S. Vener said, “I have spoken with Legislative Services about methods of writing this bill for Senator Newman which captures the need to protect innocent newborns without entangling the legislature in broader issues that have been problematic in the past. If there ever was a case that underlines the need to change this law it is this one. I have indicated to Senator Newman that I will be available to appear before the committees of the Senate and House as needed to pass this bill”.

Next, Senator Newman discussed this matter with the incoming Attorney General, Ken Cuccinelli who has agreed to provide legal support for this bill. Cuccinelli said today, ““I have spoken to Senator Newman about the tragic and appalling circumstances of the baby’s death, and I certainly will make the resources of the Attorney General’s office available to help make sure this can never happen again. This situation cries out for action, and I will support efforts to fix what appears to be a horrific loophole in our laws.”

So there’s the County Attorney and the [incoming] Attorney General. All speaking before any autopsy report is out. It’s a political football more than a legal case.

286 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:11:46pm

re: #258 allegro

That’s what I’ve been wondering. I’ve also been thinking, isn’t the first thing they do when a baby is born is use suction to clean the stuff out of its little mouth and nose? If there’s obstruction there, isn’t that a normal thing?

That’s why I think this points to an accident more than anything. Did they try to perform CPR? The child could have been born 10 hours before, but when did it die?

Facts? We don’t need no stinkin facts! Off with her head!

287 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:12:58pm
288 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:13:33pm

re: #287 MandyManners

I can’t get my can of Skoal open and I’m Jonesing for some nicotine. *whimper*

Girl, tell me you don’t chew. I think I’m gonna cry.

289 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:14:30pm

re: #286 marjoriemoon

That’s why I think this points to an accident more than anything. Did they try to perform CPR? The child could have been born 10 hours before, but when did it die?

Facts? We don’t need no stinkin facts! Off with her head!

Seriously, if the baby was born 10 hours before, it would not have survived that long without clearing the airways initially. That stated, there could have still been some residue left that later did get lodged in the infants throat

290 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:14:55pm

re: #288 marjoriemoon

Girl, tell me you don’t chew. I think I’m gonna cry.

Mandy’s a lady

She sniffs her snuff

291 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:15:26pm
292 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:16:57pm
293 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:17:07pm

re: #291 MandyManners

I’ve a bad case of the creeping crud and I cannot smoke but I cannot go cold-turkey on the nicotine.

I thought you divorced him!?!?

294 ckb  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:17:31pm

re: #285 wrenchwench

So there’s the County Attorney and the [incoming] Attorney General. All speaking before any autopsy report is out. It’s a political football more than a legal case.

But still, that lends credence to Emerson. What the politicians say is irrelevant, but here you have a County Attorney saying there is a need to act regardless of the finding in this particular case. They seem to be saying if it is found the baby was deliberately killed, we need to change the law cause we cant prosecute.

Has anyone from the state or County AG office come out and said that Emerson was wrong? Has anyone come out and said that if the baby was deliberately killed there will be charges?

295 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:17:48pm
296 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:18:30pm

re: #295 MandyManners

Listen, if I could pay to get rid of this crud, I would.

I once paid and GOT it ,, does that count!?!?!

((wait ,,,, did I just type that out loud !?!?!))

297 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:19:15pm
298 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:20:57pm

re: #295 MandyManners

Mandy, I quit smoking after 10 years of it— what helped me was thinking about it in a positive manner:

Benefits of stopping smoking

I tried for years to quote by focusing on the negatives, but I’m a positive person, so I needed to look at what I’d be gaining.

That and Wellbutrin, which really helped to cap the cravings. Made me into a total softie while I was taking it, though.

It was incredibly hard, and I wish you the best of luck.

299 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:23:24pm

re: #298 Obdicut

I don’t think she’s trying to quit. She’s just trying to get crud-less!

300 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:24:31pm
301 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:24:47pm

re: #298 Obdicut

re: #299 sattv4u2

that stated, I was a smoker for just under 20 years (3+ packs a day for many of them)
Quit cold turkey about 23 years ago

Still feel like crap!

302 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:24:56pm
303 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:24:59pm

I’m not surprised that Ed has decided to not amend his post with the facts but he’s also made the curious choice the leave the death threat towards an innocent woman posted on his blog.

304 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:25:40pm
305 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:26:28pm

re: #301 sattv4u2

I have to quit smoking again. After successfully quitting for almost 2 years I started up again about 6 months ago. I’m so mad at myself for starting again.

306 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:27:15pm
307 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:27:26pm

re: #292 MandyManners

SCORE! Just a pinch between my cheek and gum. Ahhh…I feel the nicotine starting to hit my blood system.

No sniffin here!

Girl, you’ve just blown my whole snowy white perception of you :p

Mr. Moon and I are in the process of quitting. 3 months tobacco free and then we started again. What’s up with that? So now I don’t smoke at work or in the house. Force myself to go outside. I’m down to (up to?) 5 cigs a day, but by 1/1/10 I want to be smoke free.

308 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:29:09pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

I have to quit smoking again. After successfully quitting for almost 2 years I started up again about 6 months ago. I’m so mad at myself for starting again.

Funny thing is, after almost 20 years, I quit cold turkey. Threw a half a pack of cigs out the window on the highway in Kansas, gave the rest of the packs in my bag to friends I was traveling with

Never once have had the urge since

309 What, me worry?  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:29:36pm

re: #305 Killgore Trout

I have to quit smoking again. After successfully quitting for almost 2 years I started up again about 6 months ago. I’m so mad at myself for starting again.

Been there too… longest quit was 1 year. It’s a process.

They say sunflower seeds are a good munch. They replace zinc that smoking depletes, so it’s supposed to help you with the craving. Dunno about that, but it does give you something for your hands to do.

Hardest time for me is driving w/o smoking.

310 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:30:36pm
311 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:30:42pm

re: #308 sattv4u2

Funny thing is, after almost 20 years, I quit cold turkey. … Never once have had the urge since

That makes me really want to smack you.//

312 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:31:32pm

re: #300 MandyManners

Oh, apologies for misunderstanding. Feel better.

re: #305 Killgore Trout

It’s a rough, rough drug, man. I tried five times— five serious times, not just like “I really oughta quit” before I was able to.

313 Sharmuta  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:32:17pm

You people can’t quit!

Think of all the people who are counting on your tobacco taxes. :p

314 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:32:27pm
315 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:33:05pm
316 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:33:42pm

re: #311 allegro

That makes me really want to smack you.//

Want to feel WORSE

I was going cross country in a van with 4 others ,, ALL SMOKERS. There was also lots of (smokey) bar visiting along the way!

317 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:34:38pm
318 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:35:02pm

re: #314 MandyManners

LITTERER! I’M GONNA’ GET 27 EIGHT-BY-TEN COLOR GLOSSY PHOTOGRAPHS!

Oh ,,, look ,,, it’s Christmastime

I have a peice of Mistle Toe hanging off the back of my belt


KISS ME!

319 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:35:23pm

re: #316 sattv4u2

That is so wrong on so many levels.

320 [deleted]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:35:36pm
321 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:35:53pm

re: #317 MandyManners

Benson and Hedges now cost $6.75 here.

GAWD ,,, I think the most I ever paid was $1.50,,, IN a machine ,, IN New York City!

(DAMN ,, I’m frakin old! )

322 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:36:42pm
323 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:38:03pm

re: #322 Obdicut


Christmas is everywhere

She’s nice, but where’s the Green Chic!

324 wrenchwench  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:38:17pm

re: #294 ckb

But still, that lends credence to Emerson. What the politicians say is irrelevant, but here you have a County Attorney saying there is a need to act regardless of the finding in this particular case. They seem to be saying if it is found the baby was deliberately killed, we need to change the law cause we cant prosecute.

Has anyone from the state or County AG office come out and said that Emerson was wrong? Has anyone come out and said that if the baby was deliberately killed there will be charges?

Not that I’ve been able to find. Maybe now that some light hot air has been aimed at it, someone will.

325 Glenn Beck's Grand Unifying Theory of Obdicut  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:08pm

re: #323 sattv4u2

Checkov probably scooped her up, the sly bastard.

326 allegro  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:49pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Checkov probably scooped her up, the sly bastard.

We can be pretty sure it wasn’t Sulu.

327 sattv4u2  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:39:58pm

re: #325 Obdicut

Checkov probably scooped her up, the sly Commie bastard.

ftfy!
/

328 First As Tragedy, Then As Farce  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 2:59:22pm

Be sure and check out the temperate and insightful reader commentary at the Roanoke TV station website.

No wonder the Vulcans still refuse to grant any of us a work visa.

329 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:10:49pm

re: #294 ckb

But still, that lends credence to Emerson. What the politicians say is irrelevant, but here you have a County Attorney saying there is a need to act regardless of the finding in this particular case. They seem to be saying if it is found the baby was deliberately killed, we need to change the law cause we cant prosecute.

Has anyone from the state or County AG office come out and said that Emerson was wrong? Has anyone come out and said that if the baby was deliberately killed there will be charges?

The statute is posted right above. There’s no doubt about this. Anyone who says they “can’t prosecute” is simply ignoring the actual law.

330 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:16:49pm

re: #15 Ben Hur

No one noticed the first time around, either?

The bare wording of the statute is only one part of the fact pattern. In order to know what, if anything, has been done with the statute, how it has (or has not) been applied — in other words, WHAT it means — one has to know whether prosecutors have used it and HOW, and how prosecutorial interpretation has fared in court.

331 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:23:11pm

re: #330 nonic

The bare wording of the statute is only one part of the fact pattern. In order to know what, if anything, has been done with the statute, how it has (or has not) been applied — in other words, WHAT it means — one has to know whether prosecutors have used it and HOW, and how prosecutorial interpretation has fared in court.

The “bare wording” of the statute is the law on the books, and it says extremely clearly: the idea that a mother can kill a baby without legal consequences as long as it’s attached by an umbilical is just as ludicrous and false as it appears.

332 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:24:10pm

re: #294 ckb

Has anyone from the state or County AG office come out and said that Emerson was wrong? Has anyone come out and said that if the baby was deliberately killed there will be charges?

“Can’t prosecute” might well mean that no prosecutor wants to proceed and/or that in such previous prosecution, the court has dismissed the charge as invalid interpretation of the statute.

Very often, in these situations, which are deemed very stressful to all involved, and where everyone, including the mother, is seen as a victim, the authorities and the courts see no harm done to society and want to be very lenient and let what is seen has “this tragic event” pass.

333 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:27:44pm

re: #153 Killgore Trout

Hot Air commenters are now threatening to kill the mother…

This was just posted there as well:

what color is the mother?

pabarge on December 18, 2009 at 6:18 PM

334 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:28:45pm

re: #331 Charles

I read the statute and understand what it says. But the process of the law is not simply statutes. Fortunately. Because prosecutors, judges, and juries have the latitude to bring mercy to the proceedings and not wrongly punish people who make mistakes or who act under extreme pressure in ways that the bare wording of a statute defines as criminal.

335 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:30:43pm

re: #334 nonic

I read the statute and understand what it says. But the process of the law is not simply statutes. Fortunately. Because prosecutors, judges, and juries have the latitude to bring mercy to the proceedings and not wrongly punish people who make mistakes or who act under extreme pressure in ways that the bare wording of a statute defines as criminal.

Because of this, you will find very, very few cases where mothers who abandon, mistreat, or even kill their newborns are convicted or punished. Anywhere in the country.

336 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:30:54pm

re: #334 nonic

I read the statute and understand what it says. But the process of the law is not simply statutes. Fortunately. Because prosecutors, judges, and juries have the latitude to bring mercy to the proceedings and not wrongly punish people who make mistakes or who act under extreme pressure in ways that the bare wording of a statute defines as criminal.

I realize that — but the point is that the claims promoted by Hot Air and Ed Morrissey and every anti-abortion website on the Internet are 100% false.

337 Killgore Trout  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:32:25pm

re: #333 Gus 802



May she get raped by an AIDS case and die a VERY slow painful death ! C**t!

cableguy615 on December 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM

338 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:32:49pm

Yet another unhinged comment at Hot Air:

May she get raped by an AIDS case and die a VERY slow painful death ! C**t!

cableguy615 on December 18, 2009 at 6:30 PM

339 Gus  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:34:06pm

re: #337 Killgore Trout

Looks like you saw that one too.

Yeah, that article is on top right now and it’s Friday night. Should be seeing a lot of “drunk” comments.

340 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:38:12pm

Updated with those comments.

Man. And nobody is deleting that crap.

341 Kruk  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:42:04pm

There are some seriously scary people out there. I hope for this woman’s sake that no ‘law enforcement source’ or ‘whistleblower’ leaks her name.

342 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:48:08pm

No update from Morrissey, either.

343 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:55:39pm

re: #336 Charles

but the point is that the claims promoted by Hot Air and Ed Morrissey and every anti-abortion website on the Internet are 100% false.

Well, maybe not 100% false — but certainly NOT 100% transparent, either. And why should they be? If people are opposed to abortion, why should they not attempt to use what publicity they can? The “other side” would.

And I think it’s really open to question anyway — whether they “can’t prosecute” with the law as written (and interpreted, applied, and upheld) in place. And this is NOT the type of thing that law enforcement wants to publicize as a “get out of jail free card” either. It is not helpful to society to advertise what kinds of bad acts people can easily get away with.

Where the statute says “whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached,” the literal meaning of that is: (1) if the umbilical cord and placenta are still attached —OR—(2) if the umbilical cord and placenta are NOT still attached. That’s the “whether or not” part.

Either way, attached or not, the statute defines the killing of a “born alive human infant” as infanticide.
Therefore, to understand whether this particular mother might be prosecuted, one would have to know how the statute has been interpreted, how strictly it has been enforced, how the courts have responded.

In cases like this, of course, the “experts” are the prosecutors and defenders and judges who have dealt with the particular matter in the particular jurisdiction.

As an onlooker, the only other source of information would be “legislative history,” which is looking at the debate when the law was shaped and passed, and any gubernatorial signing statement.

344 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 3:59:32pm

re: #343 nonic

Either way, attached or not, the statute defines the killing of a “born alive human infant” as infanticide.

And again, that’s exactly the point of this post. There’s a completely false claim being promoted that the statute says a mother can kill her newborn baby as long as it’s still connected by an umbilical cord.

It’s simply not true. It seems like a ridiculous claim because it is.

345 Basho  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:15:56pm

re: #342 Charles

No update from Morrissey, either.

Probably rewatching Expelled. He gave that movie rave reviews.

346 acacia  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:29:16pm

OK let’s get to the root of this. First, the code section cited by Charles doesn’t appear to apply to actions of a mother at all. First, a latter section states “The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.” Also, the very first section defines the crime as any person who “performs” partial birth infanticide. In other words, the statute is clearly meant to address partial birth abortions performed by others, not the actions of the mother who begins to have birth naturally. The statute, in my mind, is completely irrelevant. One would have to look at other Virginia laws - and their interpretation - to see under what circumstances a mother could be charged for these actions. The story cited by Morrissey notes simply, “Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life.” The investigators may or may not be right but a quick reference to 18.2-71.1 (C) doesn’t mean Morrissey was wrong or that he didn’t fact check.

347 Charles Johnson  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 4:51:35pm

re: #346 acacia

OK let’s get to the root of this. First, the code section cited by Charles doesn’t appear to apply to actions of a mother at all. First, a latter section states “The mother may not be prosecuted for any criminal offense based on the performance of any act or procedure by a physician in violation of this section.” Also, the very first section defines the crime as any person who “performs” partial birth infanticide. In other words, the statute is clearly meant to address partial birth abortions performed by others, not the actions of the mother who begins to have birth naturally. The statute, in my mind, is completely irrelevant. One would have to look at other Virginia laws - and their interpretation - to see under what circumstances a mother could be charged for these actions. The story cited by Morrissey notes simply, “Investigators say because the mother and baby were still connected by the umbilical cord and placenta, state law does not consider the baby to be a separate life.” The investigators may or may not be right but a quick reference to 18.2-71.1 (C) doesn’t mean Morrissey was wrong or that he didn’t fact check.

No. That’s flat wrong. The first line of the statute is:

Any person who knowingly performs partial birth infanticide and thereby kills a human infant is guilty of a Class 4 felony.

Any person. That would include the mother, obviously. And Morrissey specifically cited this statute.

Bzzt. Try again.

348 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 5:00:11pm

re: #335 nonic

Because of this, you will find very, very few cases where mothers who abandon, mistreat, or even kill their newborns are convicted or punished. Anywhere in the country.

What are you talking about? Google “convicted of abandonment”. Plenty of cases.

349 nonic  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 5:43:01pm

re: #348 WindUpBird

What are you talking about? Google “convicted of abandonment”. Plenty of cases.

I’ll take your word for it. But sometimes conviction is not an option. So then the pertinent question is what punishment, if any, was imposed. Any defense attorney is going to make out that the mother was alone and scared, obviously in pain, maybe had bled a great deal, maybe afraid of family or others finding out she was even pregnant. Terrified. And in fact, this is OFTEN the truth. If she were not in a desperate situation, she probably would have been in a hospital and had supportive people around her.

So, given her state of mind, unless she behaved in a truly depraved way toward the newborn, the baby may be taken away from her (and not even always that), but rarely will she be punished.

I think now nearly every state has what IIRC are called “Moses” laws, that allow women (girls, usually) to leave unwanted babies at certain drop-off centers, no questions asked and without incurring any legal culpability.

Footnote. Some jurisdiction — state, county, or city, I forget — recently found itself with its hands full because their “Moses” law did not specifiy an age limit for abandoned children, and people were bringing in kids of all ages, even teenagers who were unruly and uncontrollable or several kids because the parents could not afford to care for them.

There’s a lot of misery out there, one way or another. :-(

350 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 7:05:37pm

re: #258 allegro

That’s what I’ve been wondering. I’ve also been thinking, isn’t the first thing they do when a baby is born is use suction to clean the stuff out of its little mouth and nose? If there’s obstruction there, isn’t that a normal thing?

Yes, often, but under normal circumstances there’s a doctor, or a nurse, or a midwife, or someone’s grandma, to get any gunk out, and make sure the baby gets breathing properly. If there’s no one there but the mom, and she’s too disoriented, or weak, or unconscious, to do it, the baby might be in trouble.

Also, the baby might well have been born dead, or in distress when it was born. No one but a trained medical examiner is going to be able to really tell us what happened.

351 Summer Seale  Fri, Dec 18, 2009 11:32:12pm

re: #346 acacia

I’m sorry, but this stance from Hot Air and the rest of the right-wing blogs that are promoting this is just insane.

The fact is: we don’t know what happened yet. The fact is that it may not have been deliberate at all. The mother may be completely innocent of any wrong doing right now. I’m not saying she necessarily is, but we just don’t know so we have to presume that she is.

And then, moving on from that, if she actually was found to have done this deliberately, I’ll bet you anything that she would be charged with murder on some level either way. To think that she wouldn’t be is insane. To assume by twisting the law into some sort of agenda-like conspiracy to make a point for anti-Abortion extremists is completely nuts.

And then to leave posts up threatening the mother with rape, mutilation, and death, is beyond the pale. It’s downright fucking wrong. Ok? It’s fucking lunatic beyond words.

The Right Wing should apologize - in public - for making a ton of assumptions before we know anything that happened for certain, before we know what is going to actually happen, and for flying off the handle and calling for all sorts of dangerously crazy and, frankly, illegal threats and actions.

Even were she guilty, it would be unacceptable. It’s just plain fucking wrong. Get it through your thick skulls: It’s not Christian, and it’s not fucking Right.

352 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:25:06am

re: #347 Charles

Charles, as I noted the first time, the code’s first section would not apply since the mother did not “perform” a procedure (except of course plain old murder as discussed below) let alone “perform partial birth infanticide.” She simply had her baby naturally and then - supposedly - smothered it with the cord still attached. I am not saying that she cannot be prosecuted under Virginia law. I would be shocked if it turned out that she couldn’t. To me all you have to do is go to the “murder” section of the code for the charges. If there is a legal issue in Virginia it probably lies elsewhere or may be a previous misapplication by a court of the law that Morrissey said the “investigators” cited. We simply don’t know. All that I was saying is that you cannot completely discount the statements of the investigators by playing amateur lawyer with a quick look at one code section. There’s simply a lot more to this and no one’s quick take, whether Morrissey’s or anyone else’s begins to get to the bottom of it.

353 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 6:35:08am

re: #351 Summer

I’m not adopting any “stance” except that the matter needs to be investigated a lot more thoroughly before anyone can have a reasoned opinion on this story. All Morrissey did was report that investigators were of the legal belief based in part on past matters and an AG request for changes in the law, that the mother could not be prosecuted under these circumstances. That’s all he did. Are the investigators right? Who knows? What were the details of the AG request? Who knows. Do we know exactly what the mother did? Probably not. I just don’t think a knee jerk negative reaction is warranted to Morrissey’s apparently accurate report of what he was told - at least I don’t think anyone is questioning that the investigators said what they said or that there was an AG request for changes in VA law. He raised an interesting and troubling scenario that needs further looking into. That’s it.

354 acacia  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:14:42am

I’m sorry but I’m a bit taken aback by the refusal of so many in this forum to accept the possibility that the law in Virginia indeed needs to be cleaned up to cover this situation. In order not to acknowledge this you have to accept that the investigators are totally inept and for some unstated and unknown reason neither they nor the county prosecutor have elected to charge this woman even though they, according to the majority view on this forum, could easily do so and even though they have stated they want to bring the woman to justice. Also why would the AG attempt to change the law when it doesn’t need changing and he could easily direct his efforts to seeing that justice is done in this case under existing laws. Let’s not forget common sense here. Morrissey is just reporting what those in VA who deal with these laws are saying. He’s not saying it’s his independent analysis of the law. Comments on this site are interpreting and applying bits and pieces of Virginia law without any conception or understanding whatsoever of the full legal code or its application in VA courts. (We’re supposed to accept the “experts” on global warming but not the “experts” on VA law?) Like I said earlier I am shocked that the law (such as hte murder statute) doesn’t cover it but neither I nor anyone else here (to my knowledge) is an expert on this subject. The one reasonable criticism of Morrissey and Hot Air is and has always been that they do not purge hateful posts. That part is inexcusable and deserving of contempt.

355 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:31:39am

re: #354 acacia

No, you don’t have to accept any of those hypothetical situations. You could also postulate — as many have in this thread — that the woman wasn’t charged because there is no evidence she did anything wrong, and that people with biased agendas are deliberately lying about this “loophole” that doesn’t exist.

356 So What  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:39:26am

You might enjoy this read regarding Tammy Skinner a mother who shot her baby on the day of the baby’s scheduled birth day..

ethicsscoreboard.com

C. Phillips Ferguson the D.A. of the City of Suffolk who tried the case tied to proscute this POS called a mother for murder but under Va. law at that time could not.

357 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:47:49am

re: #356 So What

You might enjoy this read regarding Tammy Skinner a mother who shot her baby on the day of the baby’s scheduled birth day..

[Link: www.ethicsscoreboard.com…]

C. Phillips Ferguson the D.A. of the City of Suffolk who tried the case tied to proscute this POS called a mother for murder but under Va. law at that time could not.

The baby in the case we’re discussing was NOT “self-aborted,” so it’s not at all the same thing. This baby was newborn.

358 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 10:50:07am

re: #356 So What

And — she didn’t “shoot her baby.” She shot herself in the abdomen. The baby was not born, so it was a “fetus.” You’re bringing up an entirely different situation governed by an entirely different statute.

359 So What  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:03:02am

Charles, excuse me for offering in a different perspective, it was posted as a topic that does tie into the general discussion.It offers in a view of how the law in Va. differs. That was all, its all in the wording and how it applies based on that fact alone

360 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 11:39:37am

re: #359 So What

Charles, excuse me for offering in a different perspective, it was posted as a topic that does tie into the general discussion.It offers in a view of how the law in Va. differs. That was all, its all in the wording and how it applies based on that fact alone

You brought up a different law, and a case that bears no relation to the one under discussion.

361 [deleted]  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:34:40pm
362 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:40:11pm

Bye now!

363 Charles Johnson  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 1:58:51pm

It’s amazing how deranged this issue makes people.

Polite disagreement results in a long, insulting tirade and flounce.

364 Scrutineer  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:02:45pm

The law (18.2-71.1) explicitly covers only “partial birth infanticide,” and it spells out that this term applies only to “a human infant who has been born alive, but who has not been completely extracted or expelled from its mother”. (emph. added)

The last paragraph, which Charles bolded in his post, defines “human infant who has been born alive” to include a fully expelled/extracted baby “whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”. But the law doesn’t punish the killing of any “human infant who has been born alive,” but only those killed via “partial birth abortion,” and this excludes fully expelled babies.

365 Gus  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:34:09pm

re: #364 Scrutineer

The law (18.2-71.1) explicitly covers only “partial birth infanticide,” and it spells out that this term applies only to “a human infant who has been born alive, but who has not been completely extracted or expelled from its mother”. (emph. added)

The last paragraph, which Charles bolded in his post, defines “human infant who has been born alive” to include a fully expelled/extracted baby “whether or not the umbilical cord has been cut or the placenta is attached”. But the law doesn’t punish the killing of any “human infant who has been born alive,” but only those killed via “partial birth abortion,” and this excludes fully expelled babies.

Let’s look at this a second time. The paragraph reads:

B. For the purposes of this section, “partial birth infanticide” means any deliberate act that (i) is intended to kill a human infant who has been born alive, but who has not been completely extracted or expelled from its mother, and that (ii) does kill such infant, regardless of whether death occurs before or after extraction or expulsion from its mother has been completed.

The first qualification is a deliberate act which is intended to kill a human infant who has been born alive but not completely extracted or expelled from its mother. So lets look at the definition of deliberate:

Willful; purposeful; determined after thoughtful evaluation of all relevant factors; dispassionate. To act with a particular intent, which is derived from a careful consideration of factors that influence the choice to be made.

When used to describe a crime, deliberate denotes that the perpetrator has weighed the motives for the conduct against its consequences and the criminal character of the conduct before deciding to act in such a manner. A deliberate person does not act rashly or suddenly but with a preconceived intention

The deliberate act in this case could become the intention of premeditation of committing the act of killing the infant. Thus the deliberate act is her decision in her mind to carry out the act. The deliberate act is thus her preconceived intention to commit infanticide.

Once this preconceived intention is decided upon she follows through with (ii) “does kill such infant… after full expulsion” as a result of her deliberative thoughts and premeditation. The case would have to be argued that the deliberate act was her intention and premeditation.

366 Scrutineer  Sat, Dec 19, 2009 3:49:50pm

re re: #365 Gus 802

The deliberate act in this case could become the intention of premeditation of committing the act of killing the infant. Thus the deliberate act is her decision in her mind to carry out the act. The deliberate act is thus her preconceived intention to commit infanticide.

Once this preconceived intention is decided upon she follows through with (ii) “does kill such infant… after full expulsion” as a result of her deliberative thoughts and premeditation. The case would have to be argued that the deliberate act was her intention and premeditation.

Gus, I would be surprised if the formation of intent counts as a “deliberate act” under Virginia (or any other state’s) law, but it’s an interesting idea.


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