White Supremacists Heart Pamela Geller

US News • Views: 5,713

At the SPLC’s Hatewatch blog, Heidi Beirich has a detailed report on hate monger Pamela “Shrieking Harpy” Geller, and the very receptive audience she has found at neo-Nazi and white nationalist websites: White Supremacists Find Common Cause with Pam Geller’s Anti-Islam Campaign.

Geller’s Muslim-bashing has resonated with certain conservatives, several of whom, including former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and former House Speaker Newt Gingrich, have come out against the Muslim community center. But Geller’s views are now also finding support from nearly every sector of America’s racist right. This is rather surprising because Geller is Jewish, a fact that is normally enough to dissuade radical rightists from too tight an embrace. Apparently, Geller is a Jew the racist right can love.

On the oldest and largest white nationalist forum, Stormfont.org, Geller’s anti-Islamic blog posts have been shared on several occasions. In January, for instance, “Thunderbird” posted several links to Geller’s writing and that of another Jewish woman who writes for the anti-immigrant hate site, VDARE.com. “Thunderbird” asked her fellow haters whether these “notorious right wing conservative Jewish bloggers are … on our side on many issues.” A compatriot, “GE Bonaventure” replied, “Jewish Nazi’s, Fascists, right wingers etc. are small in number but they can make sense.”

In May, “skinjob88” (88 is neo-Nazi code for “Heil Hitler”) gave Geller high praise on Stormfront: “In my country and the rest of Europe, [Muslims] are pushing for Islamification, they are killing good White teenagers and raping young White girls, they inter-marry and inter-breed with their family members. Don’t think for one minute the US is safe from Islam.” But the support wasn’t unanimous. One Stormfronter expressed anger that Geller seemed blind to the horrors of non-white races. In April, “Teutonic Beubonic” wrote: “She singles out Muslim immigrants in Europe for their uncivilized animal-like behavior and likeliness to commit crime, yet she refuses to mention anything about blacks or Latinos in the U.S. … Shame on her.”

Over at the Rebellion blog, run by the racist neo-secessionist group League of the South, head blogger “Old Rebel” has more than once expressed support for Geller’s anti-Islamic views. In August, referring to Geller’s protests in New York, the poster said that “[i]f the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us.” “Anonymous” posted in reply: “Islam comprises much more than a cult. Islam, unlike any other religion I challenge you to name, is a top to bottom political movement that spans government, law, culture and worship practices that, when it achieves hegemony, tolerates no deviation from any of its aspects without severe penalty.”

American Renaissance, a race science outfit whose leader has written that black people are incapable of sustaining civilization, has posted more than one Geller column on its website. This past January, the group featured a Geller piece from The Washington Times that asserted that Muslims were attempting to replace European law with Islamic law. Her message resonated with American Renaissance’s readers. “It won’t be long before Muslims will be voting to end democracy in Europe and replacing it with Islamic law,” wrote one anonymous poster.

Read the whole thing. Beirich also notes Geller’s praise for South African racist leader Eugene Terre’Blanche, and her gushing support for the British anti-Muslim gang English Defense League. And this only scratches the surface; Geller also regularly defends genocidal Serbian war criminals like Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic, for example.

If you’ve been reading LGF for a while, you know that we’ve been pointing out Geller’s vile support for racists, white supremacists, and thugs for years. It’s good to see others beginning to dig a little deeper into who Geller really is, and what she really stands for.

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127 comments
1 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 10:55:22am

Oy! Wonder what her Yiddisha momma has to say!

2 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:00:41am
And Geller has been defending and working with organizations that are blatantly racist and anti-Semitic. This past June, Geller spoke at an event in Paris put on by the Bloc Identitaire, which opposesrace-mixing and “Islamic imperialism.” Geller also is a proud supporter of the English Defence League (EDF), described by Salon.com as “a far-right street movement that sprang up in the United Kingdom earlier this year to protest planned construction of mosques and to stoke fear of Islam more broadly.” According to the Guardian, EDF members have been involved in violent anti-mosque protests, made violent statements that included the threat that an EDF member may one day “murder” any Muslims he can get his hands on, and has engaged in “racism” and “virulent Islamophobia.”


It's nice to see people finally paying attention.

3 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:01:36am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

It's nice to see people finally paying attention.

(She gets the acronym wrong, though - it's "EDL.")

4 Winny Spencer  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:02:46am

From the Harpy's scurrilous blog.

“Every single headline calls Terreblanche a "white supremacist," alluding to his position in the waning days of the apartheid government, thirty-odd years ago. But the real story here is not that Terreblanche was a "white supremacist" -- if he really was (and I know how the left loves to throw around those labels).

It's not very difficult to look up, Pamela, unless you aren't in fact interested in the facts but rather in pushing an agenda.

5 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:03:41am

She's an attention queen, and doesn't care where the attention comes from, as long as she gets it!

6 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:04:41am
In May, “skinjob88” (88 is neo-Nazi code for “Heil Hitler”)

As someone born on August 8th this meme really annoys the hell out of me.

7 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:05:48am

It's been on my mind for a bit now: What the hell is that Geller-Zombie icon from anyhow?

8 Locker  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:06:58am

When most woman's looks start to fade they use botox or go to the gym to get attention. Perhaps she has a skinhead fetish?

9 goddamnedfrank  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:06:58am

re: #6 goddamnedfrank

Asshole already co-owns 420 with the chronic.

10 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:07:06am

Even this very morning the Nazis at stormfront are bemoaning the news that Swedish Nazi group SD ( good friends of Spencer and Geller) can't get their anti-Islam advertisements on TV: Swedish TV channel refuses to broadcast anti-burqa ad

11 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:07:28am

re: #7 000G

It's been on my mind for a bit now: What the hell is that Geller-Zombie icon from anyhow?

Someone asked her to smile for the camera.

12 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:08:02am

re: #11 darthstar

Someone asked her to smile for the camera.

Did the camera break in the process?

13 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:08:25am

Barring a nuclear event, assassination of a world leader, mid east war or an eruption on Krakatoa, this has be the LGF Post of the Week.

14 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:11:14am

re: #5 Alouette

She's an attention queen, and doesn't care where the attention comes from, as long as she gets it!

There's probably more than a bit of truth to that.

15 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:13:07am

OT

It is 5 years after Hurricane Katrina, so we have to have 500 news stories about it again?

Give it a rest already, media folks, I know it gives you wood but please maybe one or two stories only.

16 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:14:02am

re: #13 researchok

Barring a nuclear event, assassination of a world leader, mid east war or an eruption on Krakatoa, this has be the LGF Post of the Week.

Would you settle for a volcano in North Sumatra?

17 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:15:02am

re: #16 darthstar

Would you settle for a volcano in North Sumatra?

Saw that this AM.

Not enough to usurp the unveiling of Geller and Skinheads.

18 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:15:56am

re: #15 Ojoe

OT

It is 5 years after Hurricane Katrina, so we have to have 500 news stories about it again?

Give it a rest already, media folks, I know it gives you wood but please maybe one or two stories only.

It's election season. That's why we're seeing so many stories. Lots of blame to be placed.

19 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:16:04am

re: #17 researchok

Saw that this AM.

Not enough to usurp the unveiling of Geller and Skinheads.

I love volcanoes. My wife saw that this morning and said, "I have a treat for you..."

20 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:16:37am

Good breeding precludes me from further comment.

21 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:17:16am

re: #18 researchok

I can't stand it anymore, I am looking at the media less and less these days.

22 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:18:08am

re: #21 Ojoe

I can't stand it anymore, I am looking at the media less and less these days.

You, me and everyone else, I suspect.

23 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:18:33am

re: #5 Alouette

She's an attention queen, and doesn't care where the attention comes from, as long as she gets it!

I suppose you're right, but when your talking points are parroted by real, honest to goodness Nazis, one would think it's time to rethink.

In essence, this goes to the very heart of what happened at LGF in 2006. We continued to support Charles through all the purges because we knew then, as we know now, that supporting racism is not the answer in combating terrorism.

24 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:20:42am

re: #21 Ojoe

I can't stand it anymore, I am looking at the media less and less these days.

It just amazes me how many people want to make the media the focus of attention. We ought to be demanding better and demand we talk about governance.

Instead, we elevate an agendized media (both sides) into legitimate players, with influence.

25 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:21:39am

re: #23 marjoriemoon

I suppose you're right, but when your talking points are parroted by real, honest to goodness Nazis, one would think it's time to rethink.

In essence, this goes to the very heart of what happened at LGF in 2006. We continued to support Charles through all the purges because we knew then, as we know now, that supporting racism is not the answer in combating terrorism.

It has become a matter of cameras and chest before butter.

26 ProMayaLiberal  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:22:53am

Just watching Meet the Press, and they were saying 300 k-500k at the rally yesterday. Considering the post from yesterday here, I rolled my eyes.

27 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:25:14am

re: #26 ProLifeLiberal

Just watching Meet the Press, and they were saying 300 k-500k at the rally yesterday. Considering the post from yesterday here, I rolled my eyes.

200,000 people is a huge margin of error. How anyone can say that with a straight face is beyond me.

28 nines09  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:26:16am

Never lose that picture of Pamela. Secure it. Blast-proof vault. For perpetuity. Future generations will thank you.

29 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:27:49am

re: #26 ProLifeLiberal

Just watching Meet the Press, and they were saying 300 k-500k at the rally yesterday. Considering the post from yesterday here, I rolled my eyes.

The numbers game is just that- a game.

If the number is high, there are lots of dangerous crazies. If the number is low, Beck's influence is conflated and Americans aren't really listening to the right.

The right plays the same game. If the numbers are high, the crowd is a representative of Americans. If the number is low, they ask why the left is in such fear of them.

Personally, I could care less how many people showed. The event was contrived, staged and populated by believers. Nowhere did I see or believe this was a grass roots rally.

30 Targetpractice  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:28:42am

re: #28 nines09

Never lose that picture of Pamela. Secure it. Blast-proof vault. For perpetuity. Future generations will thank you.

What, for having an effective means to scare roaches?

31 nines09  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:32:39am

re: #30 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Yes. Could be a picture that replaces skull and Xbones too. Poison. Do not enter. Danger. Uh oh.

32 Michael McBacon  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:40:41am
In January, for instance, “Thunderbird” posted several links to Geller’s writing and that of another Jewish woman who writes for the anti-immigrant hate site, VDARE.com.

That other "Jewish" woman would be none other than Ilana Mercer. As if Geller wasn't bad enough...

33 euphgeek  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:45:27am

I wonder if this will be enough to get the Shrieking Harpy to rethink her position on Islam and Muslims. Nah, she'll just say that her views have nothing to do with racism or white supremacism and keep on spewing her vile garbage. If she even acknowledges it at all.

34 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:46:05am

re: #29 researchok

The numbers game is just that- a game.

If the number is high, there are lots of dangerous crazies. If the number is low, Beck's influence is conflated and Americans aren't really listening to the right.

The right plays the same game. If the numbers are high, the crowd is a representative of Americans. If the number is low, they ask why the left is in such fear of them.

Personally, I could care less how many people showed. The event was contrived, staged and populated by believers. Nowhere did I see or believe this was a grass roots rally.

I agree, but it was grassroots, really. I mean just ordinary folks coming to a rally is grassroots, no?

Whether 80,000 or 500,000 (which is pretty outrageous), I find the whole message beyond disturbing.

How many ways can the Right stand up, particularly these people, the Christian Right, the Religious Right, and shit all over the poor and elderly. They're so caught up in us v. them, the hypocrites can't even see the irony between their religion and their politics.

And as Charles says, religion has nothing to do with it because politics wins over God every time with these people. Is Beck and Palin their new messiahs now?

35 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:50:54am

re: #34 marjoriemoon

I agree, but it was grassroots, really. I mean just ordinary folks coming to a rally is grassroots, no?

Whether 80,000 or 500,000 (which is pretty outrageous), I find the whole message beyond disturbing.

How many ways can the Right stand up, particularly these people, the Christian Right, the Religious Right, and shit all over the poor and elderly. They're so caught up in us v. them, the hypocrites can't even see the irony between their religion and their politics.

And as Charles says, religion has nothing to do with it because politics wins over God every time with these people. Is Beck and Palin their new messiahs now?

I don't disagree- but I really do believe the event was contrived. There was a phony inclusiveness that resembled the 'If you don't agree, you are a racist' kind of thinking.

And that highlights CJ's remarks- it is a phony expression of religion. It is contrived.

36 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:53:04am

re: #34 marjoriemoon

I should have made clear I meant political believers.

37 austin_blue  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:53:50am

To the Neo-SS crowd, she is the perfect Useful Idiot.

38 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:53:57am

re: #35 researchok

A lot of the crowd seemed-- as much as can be told about such things from a remove-- to be offput by the overwhelming amount of religious language. I think a lot of Beck fans are the ones who like the conspiracy story, economic bullshit, and were surprised it was so heavily tilted towards the religious.

39 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:54:40am

Tea Party woman gone wild - 8/28 Beck rally

40 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:56:28am

re: #38 Obdicut

A lot of the crowd seemed-- as much as can be told about such things from a remove-- to be offput by the overwhelming amount of religious language. I think a lot of Beck fans are the ones who like the conspiracy story, economic bullshit, and were surprised it was so heavily tilted towards the religious.

Ubetcha.

In a crowd that size you can be sure there were more than a few UFO abductees.

41 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:57:17am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Tea Party woman gone wild - 8/28 Beck rally


[Video]

She spotted someone with an Obama shirt and felt she had to take a stance to fight Communism?

42 jaunte  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:57:46am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

She came a long way for her tantrum and she's damn well gonna throw it.

43 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:58:34am

re: #39 Killgore Trout

The number of people with cameras trying to get a picture of the 'spectacle' lends a pretty strong argument to the theory that whacked out people losing control is what drew much of the crowd to Beck's ego-boosting god-fest.

44 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 11:58:50am

re: #42 jaunte

She came a long way for her tantrum and she's damn well gonna throw it.

She put on a show for the video and still cameras who just happened to be there.

It's all contrived BS.

45 Charles Johnson  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:00:49pm

Unbelievable.

Now Pamela Geller is digging up the bogus Flight 93 memorial controversy again. Will she be able to drum up a similar outrage over this one, or will the batshit craziness of it be obvious enough to prevent another bigotry outbreak?

46 Killgore Trout  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:01:01pm

I was just scrolling through more pics of the Beck rally. For the love of god this country needs to lose some weight. I would guess the average person at that rally needs to lose 80-100 pounds.

47 Stanghazi  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:01:07pm

re: #44 researchok

She put on a show for the video and still cameras who just happened to be there.

It's all contrived BS.

Uh, no. That looked quite real to me. She's embarrassed today I betcha.

48 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:03:36pm

re: #47 Stanley Sea

Uh, no. That looked quite real to me. She's embarrassed today I betcha.

No way, Stan- more than likely she's proud of her performance!

Stupid is a deep lake, not a shallow puddle. She's right up there with Lake Powell.

49 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:04:49pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I think she must have had an account on LGF at some point.

50 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:05:27pm

re: #46 Killgore Trout

I was just scrolling through more pics of the Beck rally. For the love of god this country needs to lose some weight. I would guess the average person at that rally needs to lose 80-100 pounds.

I noticed that at Disney. We are a chubby people.

51 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:05:32pm

re: #45 Charles

Unbelievable.

Now Pamela Geller is digging up the bogus Flight 93 memorial controversy again. Will she be able to drum up a similar outrage over this one, or will the batshit craziness of it be obvious enough to prevent it?

She needs to deflect the Park51 heat she's getting.

She probably figures a crusade outside NYC will draw less scrutiny.

52 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:06:33pm

re: #49 marjoriemoon

I think she must have had an account on LGF at some point.

That made me laugh.

53 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:07:31pm

I'm also wondering why NBC is giving her any platform...

NBC gives Pam Geller platform to discuss mosque controversy -- why?

The NBC report rightly pointed out that this proposed mosque, the Cordoba House, is supposed to be a monument to religious tolerance and anti-extremism. Then why did NBC feature hatemonger Geller as a credible source to voice opposition to it?

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

54 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:07:47pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon

I noticed that at Disney. We are a chubby people.

Don't need to go to Disney.

Stand outside any fast food joint.

55 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:08:38pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

I'm also wondering why NBC is giving her any platform...

NBC gives Pam Geller platform to discuss mosque controversy -- why?

The NBC report rightly pointed out that this proposed mosque, the Cordoba House, is supposed to be a monument to religious tolerance and anti-extremism. Then why did NBC feature hatemonger Geller as a credible source to voice opposition to it?

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

She's been on CNN a few times as well.

56 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:08:47pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Shooting fish in a barrel.

57 simoom  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:09:01pm

Jane Mayer, was on NPR's Fresh Air a few days ago to talk about her New Yorker Koch brothers article. Charles posted on that article here: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Anyway, the NPR interview appears to be ~half an hour. I just started listening to it, and so far it's pretty interesting. Here's the link:
[Link: www.npr.org...]

58 darthstar  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:09:39pm

re: #47 Stanley Sea

Uh, no. That looked quite real to me. She's embarrassed today I betcha.

The person who should be embarrassed is the guy who got down on bended knee to try and reason with her. I thought it was her husband at first, as he seemed to be embarrassed by her lack of control, but then she says, "Sir, get off your knees!"...

59 3eff Jeff  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:09:59pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon

I noticed that at Disney. We are a chubby people.

No small part of it is the food we eat, particularly the amount of refined fructose (found in corn syrups and sugar). (Yes, the video is an hour and a half long, but he goes through and maps out the metabolic pathways for glucose, ethanol and fructose. It's pretty fascinating if you like science lectures.)

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:10:33pm

A thought just occurred to me. I would like some help in trying to explain this phenomena.

Ostensibly, the teabags are anti tax. They argue that they have been taxed enough already. None of the rank and file are particularly wealthy.

OK. The Obama administration got middle class tax cuts through. The vast majority of Americans actually paid fewer taxes last go round. These are just what the numbers were. I know I personally paid less.

Yet, they hate Obama...

Ostensibly, the teabags would like to see more Americans working. OK, the Obama administration and the stimulus has turned around job loss.

For those who weren't able to find jobs yet, it has been the GOP that killed the bulk of the Jobs bill and filibustered unemployment benefit extensions. Getting money injected into the pockets of he average American - particularly those who are seeking work, is one of the most effective ways to get the economy stimulated and to prevent further breakdowns.

Yet, they hate Obama...

The question is, how can such a large group of people be so deluded as to consistently be opposed to their own best interests? How do they not notice?

Ostensibly, the teabags are all for individual liberty. Well, provided you are only praying to approved deities and have sex in an approved fashion and have the virtue of the right skin color at least.

Now I get that the average teabag is mostly driven by fear, prejudice and bad information. But, surely someone amongst them might notice that they paid less taxes. For the unemployed white trash element of them, surely some noticed that extending unemployed benefits would be helpful to them.

How is it that something that basic can be so easily missed even by them?

61 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:10:49pm

Charles? You posted the picture.

Why do you hate FBV?

62 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:12:38pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

Tea Party woman gone wild - 8/28 Beck rally


[Video]

Damn communists? Bread lines?

I doubt that ignorant, fat harridan could define communism.

63 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:12:42pm

re: #49 marjoriemoon

LOL. That's some funny right there.

64 simoom  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:12:55pm

re: #53 Walter L. Newton

I'm also wondering why NBC is giving her any platform...

NBC gives Pam Geller platform to discuss mosque controversy -- why?

The NBC report rightly pointed out that this proposed mosque, the Cordoba House, is supposed to be a monument to religious tolerance and anti-extremism. Then why did NBC feature hatemonger Geller as a credible source to voice opposition to it?

[Link: mediamatters.org...]

I'm with you on major media giving these extremists a platform to infect the public with their garbage. In general the anchors and moderators are totally unprepared to respond to or rebut the BS "facts" they rattle off, and so the misinformation ends up disseminated unchallenged.

65 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:13:10pm

re: #55 researchok

She's been on CNN a few times as well.

I suspect because the media, whatever form it takes, whatever outlet you are talking about, bottom line is cash flow, and if Geller sells on Fox, Geller sells on NBC and CNN.

We've already seen the media slide a bit to not so praising coverage of President Obama, not 18 months away from their glowing praises.

Anyone think the media is bias is nuts, all the media is playing for one thing, cash.

66 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:13:29pm

re: #50 marjoriemoon

We are a chubby people.

"Bovine" people, my wife calls them.

An actual health care program (not sickness care, which is what "health care" means politically) would address the overweight problem strongly, and right away.

There still exists the President's Council on Physical Fitness, started by Eisenhower, or his administration anyway.

Link to PCFF

67 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:14:52pm

re: #65 Walter L. Newton

Which raises the question of whether the GOP is now simply a political arm of the right-wing media, used in order to make more money.

It doesn't really look much like a legitimate political organization anymore.

68 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:14:58pm

re: #45 Charles

Unbelievable.

Now Pamela Geller is digging up the bogus Flight 93 memorial controversy again. Will she be able to drum up a similar outrage over this one, or will the batshit craziness of it be obvious enough to prevent another bigotry outbreak?

And in the meanwhile, disrespect the actual people who suffered directly from the attack.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:15:07pm

re: #64 simoom

I'm with you on major media giving these extremists a platform to infect the public with their garbage. In general the anchors and moderators are totally unprepared to respond to or rebut the BS "facts" they rattle off, and so the misinformation ends up disseminated unchallenged.

So... when these "anchors and moderators" were responding to Obama during the campaign, are you implying that they were "totally unprepared" and let his rhetoric and policy positions "unchallenged"?

I think we are talking about the same media... yes?

70 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:15:34pm

re: #62 LudwigVanQuixote

Damn communists? Bread lines?

I doubt that ignorant, fat harridan could define communism.

WORD OF THE DAY!!!

71 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:16:09pm

re: #67 Obdicut

Which raises the question of whether the GOP is now simply a political arm of the right-wing media, used in order to make more money.

It doesn't really look much like a legitimate political organization anymore.

Everybody uses everybody.

You know that.

72 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:16:44pm

re: #23 marjoriemoon

I suppose you're right, but when your talking points are parroted by real, honest to goodness Nazis, one would think it's time to rethink.

In essence, this goes to the very heart of what happened at LGF in 2006. We continued to support Charles through all the purges because we knew then, as we know now, that supporting racism is not the answer in combating terrorism.

If anyone is a (real) kapo, it would be Ms Geller, given her real life associations with anti-semitic groups. I mean, what could be a greater betrayal to one's own people than associating with Nazi lovers?

73 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:16:55pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote


The question is, how can such a large group of people be so deluded as to consistently be opposed to their own best interests? How do they not notice?

Ostensibly, the teabags are all for individual liberty. Well, provided you are only praying to approved deities and have sex in an approved fashion and have the virtue of the right skin color at least.

Now I get that the average teabag is mostly driven by fear, prejudice and bad information. But, surely someone amongst them might notice that they paid less taxes. For the unemployed white trash element of them, surely some noticed that extending unemployed benefits would be helpful to them.

How is it that something that basic can be so easily missed even by them?

The short answer is that a person's opinions are far, far more important than facts or any hard evidence. Opinions are everything. If a person already has a preconceived opinion that something is the case, they can become unable to do something as simple as compare two numbers and see which one is larger. I've seen this with my own eyes - people of average intelligence who have an opinion that tells them one thing, who are then shown two sets of numbers that clearly prove the opposite, and who are then incapable of comparing these numbers and seeing which one is larger or smaller. Instead they will become angry and leave the conversation.

You cannot prove opinions wrong. You may as well be trying to prove to these people that they don't exist. They have been given the opinion that they are heavily taxed, oppressed, and ruled over by a tyrannical Muslim foreigner. Like all opinions, it is now part of their self-image and worldview, given enough reinforcement. And there is no amount of evidence that will convince them otherwise. The only solution is deprogramming.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:17:01pm

re: #45 Charles

Unbelievable.

Now Pamela Geller is digging up the bogus Flight 93 memorial controversy again. Will she be able to drum up a similar outrage over this one, or will the batshit craziness of it be obvious enough to prevent another bigotry outbreak?

Are you kidding? People who want to see conspiracies and live in fear will buy her message. Fox and Beck have brought a whole segment of the populace to a boiling point primed for eating such shit up.

75 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:17:14pm

re: #71 researchok

Everybody uses everybody.

You know that.

Under the spreading chestnut tree
I sold you and you sold me

76 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:17:22pm

re: #66 Ojoe

"Bovine" people, my wife calls them.

An actual health care program (not sickness care, which is what "health care" means politically) would address the overweight problem strongly, and right away.

There still exists the President's Council on Physical Fitness, started by Eisenhower, or his administration anyway.

Link to PCFF

Much agreed. It's one of The First Lady's pet projects.

In this fast paced society of two working parents, scheduled playtime for the kiddies, etc., it's easy to go with the quick meals which are often high in fat, sodium, cholesterol, preservatives, etc.

I guess "chubby" ain't so PC, eh? How's about weight challenged!

77 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:17:42pm

re: #67 Obdicut

Which raises the question of whether the GOP is now simply a political arm of the right-wing media, used in order to make more money.

It doesn't really look much like a legitimate political organization anymore.

Well, you would have to show me actual physical proof of that contention before I would agree with you. On a similar note, for sure the right wing media has co-opted the right wing as a viable money generating topic and political area to cover and support.

And the "left wing" media is coming on board, slowly but surely.

78 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:18:38pm

re: #71 researchok

I do think that we're seeing something rather unusual in the conflation of Fox News and other right-wing outlets and the close adherence to them of the right-wing politicians.

79 Jeff In Ohio  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:18:48pm

re: #66 Ojoe

Many large corporations give incentives by way of cash back on deductibles as a way to encourage their employees to change their diets and go to the gym.

80 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:18:53pm

re: #75 Ojoe

Under the spreading chestnut tree
I sold you and you sold me

Sure. FOX News keeps Kucinich front and center to make lefties look like fools and MSNBC give Pat Buchanan a stage to make the right look like lunatics.

Our world.

81 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:20:07pm

re: #79 Jeff In Ohio

Good for them.

82 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:20:10pm

re: #77 Walter L. Newton

I'm sorry, Walter, proof of what contention?

83 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:21:04pm

re: #78 Obdicut

I do think that we're seeing something rather unusual in the conflation of Fox News and other right-wing outlets and the close adherence to them of the right-wing politicians.

I won't disagree.

We're seeing a new business model in the making. If it works we'll be seeing lots more all across the board.

84 sagehen  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:21:20pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

The question is, how can such a large group of people be so deluded as to consistently be opposed to their own best interests? How do they not notice?

Fox News and Rush Limbaugh.

They saw it on television, it must be true.

85 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:22:19pm

BBL

86 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:22:51pm

re: #80 researchok

Is this yet another iteration of the Magical Balance Fairy?

The media has always been, first and foremost, sensationalist. But the right-wing media, at the current moment, as Charles has aptly demonstrated over and over, has gone over a cliff. It has become an absolute pit of insanity. It has become far more politicized than anything on the 'left' outside the Worker's Vanguard.

I'm still unsure why. I think it's a confluence of a large number of factors, but I do think that the close ties between the GOP and the right-wing media are far stronger than those between the Democrats and any media outlets.

87 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:24:06pm

re: #60 LudwigVanQuixote

You're looking for logic where there is no logic.

Interview them at the rallies and they parrot the same BS. "Obama is trying to change the Constitution." Oh really, can you explain how? ::crickets::

The only thing that matters is the hate for the Left, all Leftist all the time. See Screaming Commie-Fearing Woman upthread.

Code Pink and ANSWER didn't have national rallies in front of the Lincoln Memorial. They were no where mainstream like we see the Right now.

88 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:27:01pm

re: #83 researchok

Our posts crossed paths. No need to respond to my latest, as you basically already have.

89 sagehen  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:27:01pm

re: #78 Obdicut

I do think that we're seeing something rather unusual in the conflation of Fox News and other right-wing outlets and the close adherence to them of the right-wing politicians.

I don't think that's new and unusual -- it's a revival of a something that used to be routine long enough ago that we just don't remember.

Hearst publications certainly weren't founded on objective journalism.

90 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:27:52pm

Sister-in-law... went nuts today talking about "that mosque they are building".

I defended their right. She told me, "Don't you get all liberal on me now"... I said, "most conservatives that I know are really into that Constitution thingy"...

She said, "I don't care about that! I don't want it built there."
I said, "Then you are not a conservative."

Actually, it was a great thing to happen between us... She might not speak to me for a while.

91 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:28:10pm

re: #73 Renaissance_Man

The short answer is that a person's opinions are far, far more important than facts or any hard evidence. Opinions are everything. If a person already has a preconceived opinion that something is the case, they can become unable to do something as simple as compare two numbers and see which one is larger. I've seen this with my own eyes - people of average intelligence who have an opinion that tells them one thing, who are then shown two sets of numbers that clearly prove the opposite, and who are then incapable of comparing these numbers and seeing which one is larger or smaller. Instead they will become angry and leave the conversation.

You cannot prove opinions wrong. You may as well be trying to prove to these people that they don't exist. They have been given the opinion that they are heavily taxed, oppressed, and ruled over by a tyrannical Muslim foreigner. Like all opinions, it is now part of their self-image and worldview, given enough reinforcement. And there is no amount of evidence that will convince them otherwise. The only solution is deprogramming.

OK, so let's say I get that.

Anyone who has tried to teach science to the masses, gets that. I have seen the closed minded foolishness and inability to process abstractions or new evidence many times. We all have. There is something of an uphill battle with things like Evolution and AGW.

Processing science requires looking into things and processing detailed arguments. The same forces come into play when dealing with historical revisionists.

However, knowing that if you are out of work, unemployment benefits would help you, or that if you have work, you paid less taxes, is a no brainier.

What you are saying then is that the power of Fox news and the right wing punditry is so profound that even those facts don't penetrate.

Curiously enough... Combining an understanding of Darwin with AGW, one sees very quickly that this is not a survival advantage. If those things together somehow didn't wipe out the sane and intelligent along with the deluded sheep, I would be all for letting nature take its course.

Do we really need more generations of those who are that delusional, easily manipulatable, prone to outburst and generally destructive? I would be all for letting them wipe themselves out.

But since their actions effect us, how does one deprogram if not by pointing out basic facts? Where exactly does the truth come into plans to restore accurate perceptions of reality?

92 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:28:26pm

re: #57 simoom

Jane Mayer, was on NPR's Fresh Air a few days ago to talk about her New Yorker Koch brothers article. Charles posted on that article here: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Anyway, the NPR interview appears to be ~half an hour. I just started listening to it, and so far it's pretty interesting. Here's the link:
[Link: www.npr.org...]

Thanks for that. Some avenues of that story are taboo, but I think it's safe to say that a lot on the Right have been playing the "but George Soros and Ted Turner and Warren Buffett do it too so just pointing out the Kochs is disingenuous!" in response.

Personally, I think anybody with a lots of power, be it political or financial or, how it mostly is the case in the upper ranks, both deserves a thorough exposure.

93 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:29:46pm

re: #72 eclectic infidel

If anyone is a (real) kapo, it would be Ms Geller, given her real life associations with anti-semitic groups. I mean, what could be a greater betrayal to one's own people than associating with Nazi lovers?

I wouldn't really use that word because it's not a good word. Those Jews who "sided" with the Nazis did it under duress. Pammie seems to do it with glee. Like I said, wonder what her mother thinks of what she's done.

But it seriously pains me to see Jews doing such things. Because you know they're going to hold her up like they hold Norm Finklestein as one of the "good" ones.

I have a great deal of empathy for Muslims in that regard. It's really hard to see such terrible things in your own religion.

94 sagehen  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:30:27pm

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote


"It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."
Arthur C Clarke

95 researchok  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:30:51pm

re: #86 Obdicut

Is this yet another iteration of the Magical Balance Fairy?

The media has always been, first and foremost, sensationalist. But the right-wing media, at the current moment, as Charles has aptly demonstrated over and over, has gone over a cliff. It has become an absolute pit of insanity. It has become far more politicized than anything on the 'left' outside the Worker's Vanguard.

I'm still unsure why. I think it's a confluence of a large number of factors, but I do think that the close ties between the GOP and the right-wing media are far stronger than those between the Democrats and any media outlets.

No, it's reality.

Further, sensationalism is long and time honored tool used by all when necessary as you note.

Now I would agree that in this cycle the ties between the GOP and the right media is tight. An argument can be made that during the last cycle an argument could be made about the left.

You can bet donuts to dollars that political/media relationships will change as long as there is a dollar to be made.

My political leanings have become much more centrist as a result of my sojourn on LGF, though I admittedly tilt more to the right.

I do agree with one issue brought up by the hard left- it is becoming harder and harder to discern the internal politics of the left and right.

96 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:33:18pm

re: #87 marjoriemoon

Code Pink could meet inside the Lincoln Memorial.
/

97 Obdicut  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:33:23pm

re: #89 sagehen

Very good point.

98 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:34:23pm

re: #70 Jeff In Ohio

WORD OF THE DAY!!!

Harridan is a great word.

I find myself having to be sensitive to what I write in terms of not generating a false sense that I am sexist.

When I write, for example, that Rush the Hutt, is a classless, obese, hate mongering, lying, scraping of diseased fecal plaque from the worm ridden colon of a diseased pig, who blusters so much to overcompensate for the fact that he hasn't seen his pecker in years, and is otherwise a classic, weak and pathetic beta male, everyone understands that I am not being sexist.

However, one has to be careful when writing, loud, disgusting, fat, bitch.

Therefore, I use harridan.

99 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:35:11pm

re: #94 sagehen

"It has yet to be proven that intelligence has any survival value."
Arthur C Clarke

Tell that to any army that faced a more technologically advanced one. Tell that to any species that faced man with spear, bow, or gun...

100 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:36:31pm

re: #98 LudwigVanQuixote

H - A - DOUBLE R-I -D-A-N
THAT'S HARRIDAN!

101 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:36:54pm

re: #91 LudwigVanQuixote

OK, so let's say I get that.

Anyone who has tried to teach science to the masses, gets that. I have seen the closed minded foolishness and inability to process abstractions or new evidence many times. We all have. There is something of an uphill battle with things like Evolution and AGW.

Processing science requires looking into things and processing detailed arguments. The same forces come into play when dealing with historical revisionists.

However, knowing that if you are out of work, unemployment benefits would help you, or that if you have work, you paid less taxes, is a no brainier.

What you are saying then is that the power of Fox news and the right wing punditry is so profound that even those facts don't penetrate.

Curiously enough... Combining an understanding of Darwin with AGW, one sees very quickly that this is not a survival advantage. If those things together somehow didn't wipe out the sane and intelligent along with the deluded sheep, I would be all for letting nature take its course.

Do we really need more generations of those who are that delusional, easily manipulatable, prone to outburst and generally destructive? I would be all for letting them wipe themselves out.

But since their actions effect us, how does one deprogram if not by pointing out basic facts? Where exactly does the truth come into plans to restore accurate perceptions of reality?

I'm saying exactly that. More to the point, the daily hammering of talking points and reinforcement of a particular worldview is far more defining of reality than a tax statement you get once a year.

Humans have always been able to define reality for themselves, and live in realities that are somewhat different from that of their neighbours. And for most of our evolution, the ability to quickly form opinions has in fact been a survival advantage - quickly learning what is dangerous, what is not, and so on. It hasn't been till our entertainment has gained the ability to create alternate realities that it has become a disadvantage. And that has only really happened in the last decade - before that, our media sources were not 24 hours a day, 365 days a year, and so pervasive that we never got to step outside the world they could create. Now, our media can create artificial realities. And the problem now becomes that people can live in one reality, and vote in another.

There isn't really a simple solution. You can compete for their attention and for their emotions, but until someone finds a way to make reasonableness and truth sexier than sensationalist garbage, that'll never happen. A better way is to alter the political model, to neuter extremism and minimise the impact of demagoguery.

102 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:38:14pm

re: #87 marjoriemoon

You're looking for logic where there is no logic.

Interview them at the rallies and they parrot the same BS. "Obama is trying to change the Constitution." Oh really, can you explain how? ::crickets::

The only thing that matters is the hate for the Left, all Leftist all the time. See Screaming Commie-Fearing Woman upthread.

Code Pink and ANSWER didn't have national rallies in front of the Lincoln Memorial. They were no where mainstream like we see the Right now.

That is what is so scary.

I have often wondered how Germany slipped into Nazism. I am watching the process right here in America.

What I have been having a hard tome coming to grips with is how much of it relies on the masses just being stupid, delusional and easily manipulated.

So much evil comes from simple stupidity.

103 simoom  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:39:56pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

So... when these "anchors and moderators" were responding to Obama during the campaign, are you implying that they were "totally unprepared" and let his rhetoric and policy positions "unchallenged"?

I think we are talking about the same media... yes?

I've watched a number of Geller's recent cable news appearances, and I don't know whether the anchors just don't have the time or the inclination to prepare for the interviews, or if maybe they don't feel it's their place to push back against what she's saying, but what I've seen is Geller making some incendiary, unsupportable statement (ex: "three in four mosques preach hate and anti-Western extremism"), and then the anchor leaves it hanging there and moves on to the next question.

Perhaps it's unfair to expect a busy news anchor, who covers such a diverse array of topics, to be able to debate someone who spends such inordinate amounts of time and effort obsessing over a single topic, but if that's the case then they should realize their limitations -- that the consequence of giving folks like Geller airtime on their networks is invariably their point-of-view being legitimized and thus considered more mainstream.

104 What, me worry?  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:40:28pm

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote

That is what is so scary.

I have often wondered how Germany slipped into Nazism. I am watching the process right here in America.

What I have been having a hard tome coming to grips with is how much of it relies on the masses just being stupid, delusional and easily manipulated.

So much evil comes from simple stupidity.

Indeed.

Ok, I'm politic'd out. heheh I'll catch you lizards later.

105 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:44:14pm

re: #93 marjoriemoon

I wouldn't really use that word because it's not a good word. Those Jews who "sided" with the Nazis did it under duress. Pammie seems to do it with glee. Like I said, wonder what her mother thinks of what she's done.

Thank you for reminding me of the origin of the word. You're right, in retrospect, it's not the best description to use to describe Ms Geller's behavior. The irony just smacks me upside the head, it's so glaringly obvious. I know this person is very much disliked here, but part of me would really like to sit down with Pamela and try to find out, if possible, why she thinks such associations are morally acceptable. Maybe it is pure hatred of Muslims, but I'd like to know. Go figure.

But it seriously pains me to see Jews doing such things. Because you know they're going to hold her up like they hold Norm Finklestein as one of the "good" ones.

*nods* And not only that, which is bad enough, but in defending such bigotry, she'll also play into the hands of the anti-Israel left, especially on college campuses, that seeks to cast all Israelis, and Pro-Israel Jews as "zionazis."

106 Renaissance_Man  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:44:48pm

re: #95 researchok

No, it's reality.

Further, sensationalism is long and time honored tool used by all when necessary as you note.

Now I would agree that in this cycle the ties between the GOP and the right media is tight. An argument can be made that during the last cycle an argument could be made about the left.

Until there's evidence of a major political movement during the last cycle that was extremist far left, wholly media created and actively sponsored and promoted by major networks, and so powerful that Democrats had to ramp up extremisst, revolutionary and secessionistic rhetoric to pander to this movement or be removed from power, that argument will always need a wave of the wand from the Magical Balance Fairy.

107 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:47:16pm

"If the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us."

According to many anti-semites, "globalist elite" is codeword for Jewish conspiracy, bankers, etc. Therefore, Geller is unwittingly fueling anti-semitism, not just anti-Muslim sentiment.

She reminds me of some naive desperate ideologues who ditched their Jewish heritage to join the Communists in the early 20th century - only to get persecuted or worse later on by Stalin.

108 sagehen  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:50:12pm

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote

What I have been having a hard tome coming to grips with is how much of it relies on the masses just being stupid, delusional and easily manipulated.

85%.

Granted I just pulled that number out of my ass, but I feel the truthiness of it.

109 Michael McBacon  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:53:20pm

re: #107 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

"If the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us."

According to many anti-semites, "globalist elite" is codeword for Jewish conspiracy, bankers, etc. Therefore, Geller is unwittingly fueling anti-semitism, not just anti-Muslim sentiment.

Anti-Muslim conspiracy theories are but recycled anti-Semitism and instead of misquoting the Talmud (or quoting the 'Protocols' forgery for that matter), they misquote the Qur'an.

110 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:54:51pm

re: #95 researchok

Now I would agree that in this cycle the ties between the GOP and the right media is tight. An argument can be made that during the last cycle an argument could be made about the left.

You can only make that argument if you are trying to falsely convince yourself that the right isn't abnormally crazy, or that the crazies have very great influence in the GOP and the national discourse.

The evidence is against such a view. There was never in America, an equivalent on the left of Fox or the teabags.

I can understand how painful it is to see your former co-travellers slip into abject madness and base cretinism. However, don't project that onto a non-existent far left of equal magnitude. That is only self delusion designed to make you feel better - and even if it were true, it would not excuse anything from the right.

111 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 12:57:37pm

re: #107 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey

"If the globalist elite has its way, more Muslims will be colonizing us."

According to many anti-semites, "globalist elite" is codeword for Jewish conspiracy, bankers, etc. Therefore, Geller is unwittingly fueling anti-semitism, not just anti-Muslim sentiment.

She reminds me of some naive desperate ideologues who ditched their Jewish heritage to join the Communists in the early 20th century - only to get persecuted or worse later on by Stalin.

I'm still trying to figure out why "Jewish bankers" (speaking of which, where's my checks??) would want Muslims anywhere but on their own "reservations". I'm particularly interested in hearing why a few Jews would think there's a conspiracy of this type.

"They are not us, therefore they are all in alliance against us." ???

112 zora  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:06:02pm

re: #45 Charles

are you aware of a video compilation of geller's craziness? something a.d.d. friendly that can let people know what kind of bigoted, lunatic she is. maybe some tech-savvy lizard can create one.

113 elbruce  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:06:05pm

re: #106 Renaissance_Man

Until there's evidence of a major political movement during the last cycle that was extremist far left, wholly media created and actively sponsored and promoted by major networks, and so powerful that Democrats had to ramp up extremisst, revolutionary and secessionistic rhetoric to pander to this movement or be removed from power, that argument will always need a wave of the wand from the Magical Balance Fairy.

That did happen back in the late 60's through the 70's. Look at the riots at the Democratic National Conventions, Watts, the Weather Underground and the Symbionese Liberation Army. The left went completely off the rails for about decade there, and it was up to the right wing to play the grown-ups.

Which should be all the Magical Balance Fairy that any conservative needs, as it is sufficient to prove that extremism isn't endemic to the philosophy of either the left or the right. Sometimes the left wing loses its goddamn mind, sometimes the right wing does. Sometimes it's neither. I hope we never end up with both. But right now it's the right wing who are engaging total batshittery.

114 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:11:43pm

re: #113 elbruce

That did happen back in the late 60's through the 70's. Look at the riots at the Democratic National Conventions, Watts, the Weather Underground and the Symbionese Liberation Army.

Well that s some marvelous historical revisionism on your part.

Exactly what was the equivalent of Fox and the right wing punditry of those times?

There was none? Do you mean to say that the liberal democrats were the party that became radicalized like the GOP has today? If that were the case, then why were the radicals rioting against the Dems?

The Watts riots were more racially and class based than anything political. That can hardly be ascribed to either the right or the left.

The weather underground and the symbionese liberation army numbered - combined perhaps 80 people. That is hardly the equivalent of the mass wingnut movements going around today.

I have very little patience for historical revisionism - particularly historical revisionism of the sort that insults the intelligence with its utter stupidity.

115 tradewind  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:24:16pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

The weather underground and the symbionese liberation army numbered - combined perhaps 80 people.


I don't know about the SLA, but the WU had chapters and members around the country, on almost every large university campus, so the number seems way off.

116 elbruce  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:26:29pm

re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote

Exactly what was the equivalent of Fox and the right wing punditry of those times?

None. We had three channels and we knew exactly where the political center was without it shifting, as Walter Cronkite planted that flag clearly for all of us to see. The media landscape isn't comparable.

But I don't think it's revisionism to say that during that period right wing radicals, though they did exist, were more marginalized. Left wing radicals exist today, but they're more marginalized now. And left wing radicals back then felt they had more free reign and did more attention-grabbing stunts, whereas that's what the right wing is doing now.

Historically speaking, "conservativism" is called that because it's supposed to be the more calm, centrist approach, whereas "liberalism" refers to wanting to make significant transformations of society (or as Beck/Palin call it now, "restoration"). The right wing is historically tied to the term "conservative," whereas the left wing is historically tied to the term "liberal." There's a reason for that.

But by their classical definitions, things have become completely reversed now. It's the left today who are the most conservative (Obama is the heir to Clintonian centrism) and the proposals of the right wing are extremely liberal - from their "bomb first" foreign policy approach to their insistence on completely dismantling all of our economic and social institutions.

117 elbruce  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:36:14pm
Geller also regularly defends genocidal Serbian war criminals like Radovan Karadzic and Slobodan Milosevic

Quick question - I've seen the article where she defends Karadzic, but I'm still trying to find the link where she refers to Milosevic. Anybody got it handy?

118 Ojoe  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:40:10pm

re: #102 LudwigVanQuixote


I have often wondered how Germany slipped into Nazism. I am watching the process right here in America.

What I have been having a hard tome coming to grips with is how much of it relies on the masses just being stupid, delusional and easily manipulated.

So much evil comes from simple stupidity.

The Nazis played one group off another & the Center did not come together to stop them. And, there was the depression of the 1930s and people were out of work. Other things too.

There is an excellent book about it all by William Allen, The Nazi Seizure of Power.

I recommend it highly.

119 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:42:53pm

re: #116 elbruce

None. We had three channels and we knew exactly where the political center was without it shifting, as Walter Cronkite planted that flag clearly for all of us to see. The media landscape isn't comparable.

But I don't think it's revisionism to say that during that period right wing radicals, though they did exist, were more marginalized. Left wing radicals exist today, but they're more marginalized now. And left wing radicals back then felt they had more free reign and did more attention-grabbing stunts, whereas that's what the right wing is doing now.

Historically speaking, "conservativism" is called that because it's supposed to be the more calm, centrist approach, whereas "liberalism" refers to wanting to make significant transformations of society (or as Beck/Palin call it now, "restoration"). The right wing is historically tied to the term "conservative," whereas the left wing is historically tied to the term "liberal." There's a reason for that.

But by their classical definitions, things have become completely reversed now. It's the left today who are the most conservative (Obama is the heir to Clintonian centrism) and the proposals of the right wing are extremely liberal - from their "bomb first" foreign policy approach to their insistence on completely dismantling all of our economic and social institutions.

I wouldn't say that Cronkite was precisely in the center (his sympathies were center-left for the times), but it was easy enough to average the three networks and the various major newspapers.

I love the rest of your post, especially the last paragraph. I have come to realize that I've become a Buckley-type conservative in the sense that I favor a slow, reasoned approach, while a more classic small-l liberal in terms of goals. I have also come to realize that there seems to be little place in the current scheme for such a viewpoint.

120 elbruce  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:51:42pm

re: #119 ClaudeMonet

I wouldn't say that Cronkite was precisely in the center (his sympathies were center-left for the times)


He seemed pretty dead-center to me, but then again, I'm center-left myself so... However, the most "lefty" thing he ever did was finally speak out against Vietnam, and that only had the impact it did because it was unexpected and so uncharacteristic of his usual approach.


re: #119 ClaudeMonet

I have come to realize that I've become a Buckley-type conservative in the sense that I favor a slow, reasoned approach, while a more classic small-l liberal in terms of goals. I have also come to realize that there seems to be little place in the current scheme for such a viewpoint.


That's the real tragedy, that actual conservatism doesn't exist at all in the "marketplace of ideas." It's become an Orwellian term meaning the exact opposite of what the word is supposed to mean. When the most prominent reasonable voice on the right is... Meghan McCain maybe? Yeah, then the right is in some trouble.

121 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:52:21pm

re: #118 Ojoe

The Nazis played one group off another & the Center did not come together to stop them. And, there was the depression of the 1930s and people were out of work. Other things too.

There is an excellent book about it all by William Allen, The Nazi Seizure of Power.

I recommend it highly.

Where the USA now really differs from Germany c. 1928-33 is (a) the much more homogeneous nature of German society, (b) the real threat of a left-wing takeover, andd (c) the crushing defeat and peace terms of WWI, which caused the German economy to collapse in the early Twenties (which was why my grandfather first came to the USA in 1922, which provided the loophole that got his family in here in 1934, but that's another story). Among the phrases I've heard from many who were German citizens at the time was "psychologically defeated", "ripe for the plucking", and "ready for the man on the white horse". As a society, IMO we're nowhere near that yet. One thing we do share with Germany then is the ineffectiveness and failure to inspire on the part of our political parties, but again, I don't think we're anywhere near that level here--yet.

122 Lidane  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:58:50pm

re: #4 Winny Spencer

It's not very difficult to look up, Pamela, unless you aren't in fact interested in the facts but rather in pushing an agenda.

When has Pamz ever been interested in the facts?

123 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 1:59:34pm

re: #121 ClaudeMonet

Where the USA now really differs from Germany c. 1928-33 is (a) the much more homogeneous nature of German society, (b) the real threat of a left-wing takeover, andd (c) the crushing defeat and peace terms of WWI, which caused the German economy to collapse in the early Twenties (which was why my grandfather first came to the USA in 1922, which provided the loophole that got his family in here in 1934, but that's another story). Among the phrases I've heard from many who were German citizens at the time was "psychologically defeated", "ripe for the plucking", and "ready for the man on the white horse". As a society, IMO we're nowhere near that yet. One thing we do share with Germany then is the ineffectiveness and failure to inspire on the part of our political parties, but again, I don't think we're anywhere near that level here--yet.

All good points and worth remembering.

124 elbruce  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 2:06:45pm

re: #121 ClaudeMonet

Where the USA now really differs from Germany c. 1928-33 is (a) the much more homogeneous nature of German society, (b) the real threat of a left-wing takeover, andd (c) the crushing defeat and peace terms of WWI, which caused the German economy to collapse in the early Twenties

I don't think it's completely far-fetched to point out that (a) the right wing today advocates for a more homogenous society (immigration, "Real America"), (b) the tea party protestors and Beck want us to believe that a left wing takeover is a real threat, and (c) the economy collapsed in 2008. We might not have all of the necessary conditions right now, but it's clear that they are advocating for them.

125 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 2:15:12pm

re: #124 elbruce

I don't think it's completely far-fetched to point out that (a) the right wing today advocates for a more homogeneous society (immigration, "Real America"), (b) the tea party protesters and Beck want us to believe that a left wing takeover is a real threat, and (c) the economy collapsed in 2008. We might not have all of the necessary conditions right now, but it's clear that they are advocating for them.

A. The Right may advocate such a homogeneous society, but even in the 1920's and even among white people, America was less homogeneous than Germany. That very diversity ensures than the far right will run into more resistance.

B. Glenn Beck may talk of the threat of a left wing takeover, but the fact that there isn't the same threat of it limits his audience. Germany had an actual Red Front during 1920's and there had been Communists attempts to seize power by force (note: I'm only talking about Communists. Germany had Socialists who were not violent, worked within the electoral system, and did not want to kill people. I am not talking about them.)

C. Bad though the recession of 2008-2009 was, it was not not nearly as bad as what happened in Germany in 1919-1923, nor as bad as the Great Depression in the 1930's. That part of your analysis simply does not work.

126 Lidane  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 2:16:05pm

re: #124 elbruce

We might not have all of the necessary conditions right now, but it's clear that they are advocating for them.

This is the important point, I think.

We don't have the same conditions as pre-WW2 Germany. That much is true. The problem is that people like Pamz, Beck, Alex Jones, Limbaugh, Faux News, Palin, and the rest of the right wing noise machine are doing their damndest to convince otherwise well-meaning people that we DO have those conditions, and that we ARE in some sort of imminent danger of collapse.

They're stoking the fires of fear and paranoia that somehow our very existence and way of life are in danger of going away forever, when that's nowhere near the case. Keep working to convince people that they're in danger, and eventually they'll believe it, and they'll lash out at the perceived threat.

It's a problem, and it's largely on the right, and it needs to be addressed somehow.

127 ClaudeMonet  Sun, Aug 29, 2010 2:25:42pm

re: #126 Lidane

This is the important point, I think.

We don't have the same conditions as pre-WW2 Germany. That much is true. The problem is that people like Pamz, Beck, Alex Jones, Limbaugh, Faux News, Palin, and the rest of the right wing noise machine are doing their damndest to convince otherwise well-meaning people that we DO have those conditions, and that we ARE in some sort of imminent danger of collapse.

They're stoking the fires of fear and paranoia that somehow our very existence and way of life are in danger of going away forever, when that's nowhere near the case. Keep working to convince people that they're in danger, and eventually they'll believe it, and they'll lash out at the perceived threat.

It's a problem, and it's largely on the right, and it needs to be addressed somehow.

Convince a large portion of the electorate while simultaneously working to achieve the conditions you're decrying. Not a bad strategy, especially if you can intimidate the opposition (which hasn't happened here--yet).

If there is still a non-TP, non-Beckian, non-Rush Republican party out there, they need to work FOR something and not just be against the Dimocrats and Democrats.


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