Mike Huckabee and the Republican Clown Car, Part 2
Mitt Romney is in the green room, preparing to run the Fox News gauntlet of right wing Attorneys General, so here’s a second thread to discuss…
Mitt Romney is in the green room, preparing to run the Fox News gauntlet of right wing Attorneys General, so here’s a second thread to discuss…
1 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:31:40pm |
Well, this should be fun, if not illuminating.
5 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:32:59pm |
re: #1 austin_blue
Well, this should be fun, if not illuminating.
alternatively…there is the MSU/Wis game…a real barnburner
6 | Major Tom Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:33:22pm |
Even Huntsman’s three daughters couldn’t get him on Fox News.
7 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:34:38pm |
re: #5 albusteve
alternatively…there is the MSU/Wis game…a real barnburner
I’m watching Okie/Okie State. 17-0 ‘Pokes.
8 | elizajane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:35:01pm |
Did Mitt just say that the EPA is a tool in the hands of Obama to crush the free enterprise system of America? Isn’t he supposed to be the grown-up in this room?
10 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:37:12pm |
re: #7 austin_blue
I’m watching Okie/Okie State. 17-0 ‘Pokes.
my other game up on Fox…MSU is on my TV
12 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:38:19pm |
So… feds don’t need to get involved in environmental issues.
Feds need to get involved in education.
Kay.
13 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:38:40pm |
14 | Linden Arden Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:38:55pm |
I think they are all wearing the same flag pin with some type of spot in the center.
15 | Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:39:06pm |
I wonder how many of Hoosier Hoop’s neighbors are on suicide watch right now?
24-0 OSU.
18 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:40:09pm |
re: #12 JasonA
So… feds don’t need to get involved in environmental issues.
Feds need to get involved in education.
Kay.
Because we’re just supposed to trust companies to do the right thing with the environment? Yeah, that’s worked out REAL well so far.
19 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:40:20pm |
re: #15 oaktree
I wonder how many of Hoosier Hoop’s neighbors are on suicide watch right now?
24-0 OSU.
unreal…OU is getting stomped
20 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:40:28pm |
re: #8 elizajane
Did Mitt just say that the EPA is a tool in the hands of Obama to crush the free enterprise system of America? Isn’t he supposed to be the grown-up in this room?
Supposed to but he’s not. Anyhow, having noticed that my AG is there. I too would like to apologize for putting him on the rest of America.
21 | Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:40:28pm |
22 | Linden Arden Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:40:55pm |
“we need strict Constructionists who share MY values”
24 | bratwurst Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:41:08pm |
Mitt wants Supreme Court justices who share his values…but which ones? The ones he has now or the ones he used to have?
26 | Major Tom Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:42:10pm |
Romney-Bot… Does anyone believe a word he says anymore?
27 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:42:21pm |
re: #24 bratwurst
Mitt wants Supreme Court justices who share his values…but which ones? The ones he has now or the ones he used to have?
Oh, you did NOT just go there.
28 | Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:42:40pm |
29 | Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:43:09pm |
re: #24 bratwurst
Mitt wants Supreme Court justices who share his values…but which ones? The ones he has now or the ones he used to have?
Mitt reflects all values of all Americans. He is the ultimate cipher and doppleganger - therefore you should vote for him.
/
30 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:43:17pm |
Lemme guess Romney’s ideal judge is a Scalia/Alito/Thomas clone.
31 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:43:45pm |
32 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:43:59pm |
re: #24 bratwurst
Mitt wants Supreme Court justices who share his values…but which ones? The ones he has now or the ones he used to have?
ownage.
33 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:44:56pm |
re: #30 HappyWarrior
Lemme guess Romney’s ideal judge is a Scalia/Alito/Thomas clone.
Um, that’s almost exactly what he said.
34 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:45:37pm |
So, I see from looking downstairs. Newt wants to get rid of the EPA. Mitt thinks the EPA has no business regulating water. And Santorum thinks this administration are a bunch of environmental extremists. Do these guys live on Pluto?
35 | jaunte Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:46:35pm |
re: #34 HappyWarrior
And Bachmann thinks the EPA is taking over private businesses.
36 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:46:54pm |
re: #33 JasonA
Um, that’s almost exactly what he said.
Ha- I am not even watching. But I’ve heard that before so many times. They always say that combined with some screed about “activist judges” without explaining why their judges are better.
37 | blueraven Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:46:57pm |
Mitt must think we are all stupid.
But then again this is FNC, the station of the uninformed. So I guess he can get away with it.
38 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:47:19pm |
re: #35 jaunte
And Bachmann thinks the EPA is taking over private businesses.
Cocaine is a helluva drug.
40 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:47:42pm |
41 | ProTARDISLiberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:47:53pm |
re: #15 oaktree
I might be a Sooner, but I am also realistic. I thought we would lose.
42 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:47:54pm |
re: #37 blueraven
Mitt must think we are all stupid.
But then again this is FNC, the station of the uninformed. So I guess he can get away with it.
He probably does think we are all stupid. It’s not an unwarranted assumption, considering how borderline mentally disabled the vast unhinged are.
45 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:48:33pm |
re: #41 ProLifeLiberal
I might be a Sooner, but I am also realistic. I thought we would lose.
you’re no Sooner
46 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:48:37pm |
How is Perry going to make Congress part time?
Is he going to do a Julius Caesar on us?
49 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:49:37pm |
Hey! He put the plural in the right place.
Warms up my shriveled little Grammar Police heart.
Attorneys General.
52 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:49:54pm |
54 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:50:07pm |
re: #49 EmmmieG
Hey! He put the plural in the right place.
Warms up my shriveled little Grammar Police heart.
Attorneys General.
I should mention I was watching the promo.
55 | AlexRogan Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:50:15pm |
re: #30 HappyWarrior
Lemme guess Romney’s ideal judge is a Scalia/Alito/
Thomasclone.
IMO, Thomas is shit compared to even Alito or Scalia; at least they make sense sometimes.
56 | Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:50:21pm |
57 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:50:22pm |
re: #44 blueraven
Part time Congress, just like in TX. Wheee…
best job in the Western Hemisphere…you barely have to think and can make money
58 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:50:48pm |
61 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:16pm |
re: #5 albusteve
alternatively…there is the MSU/Wis game…a real barnburner
What network? OU/OSU is terrible.
62 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:21pm |
63 | Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:27pm |
64 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:29pm |
Tax attorneys know how to grow the economy? Isn’t that bizarro-Republican thought?
65 | AlexRogan Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:36pm |
66 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:51:45pm |
My respect for the Huntsman campaign grows…(again)
Tim Miller, a spokesman for Jon Huntsman’s presidential campaign, had this response when asked if his candidate would participate in the Dec. 27 Newsmax debate moderated by Donald Trump:
“Lol. We look forward to watching Mitt and Newt suck-up to The Donald with a big bowl of popcorn,”
he said in an email to Business Insider.
67 | Charleston Chew Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:52:25pm |
Just started watching this. Don’t quite understand the format. Is this the “What if the candidates were Max Hedroom? What would that look like?” Debate?
68 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:52:31pm |
re: #55 talon_262
IMO, Thomas is shit compared to even Alito or Scalia; at least they make sense sometimes.
I know. But they’re far from ideal judges and the idea that they’re not “judicial activists” is nonsense.
69 | ProTARDISLiberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:52:42pm |
re: #45 albusteve
Because I’m realistic? We lost to Tech and Baylor. We have had some very questionable tactics and plays, and we flubbed up a large amount.
Just because I am at OU doesn’t mean I shouldn’t allow logic into this.
71 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:52:59pm |
re: #65 talon_262
Ron Paul wants to NULLIFY!
Newt thinks the civil war is about to be redone … his friends probably want to make sure the right side wins this time.
Bachmann is a tax lawyer, that means she can unify us.
This is the GOP in 2012.
72 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:53:26pm |
73 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:53:40pm |
75 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:53:54pm |
76 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:53:54pm |
re: #63 Decatur Deb
RP
DUMBASS. People think these idiots really have the best interests of the whole United States at heart?
78 | Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:54:12pm |
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
79 | albusteve Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:54:47pm |
re: #69 ProLifeLiberal
Because I’m realistic? We lost to Tech and Baylor. We have had some very questionable tactics and plays, and we flubbed up a large amount.
Just because I am at OU doesn’t mean I shouldn’t allow logic into this.
it’s college football…you die with it, no excuses
80 | AlexRogan Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:54:52pm |
re: #71 freetoken
Ron Paul wants to NULLIFY!
Newt thinks the civil war is about to be redone … his friends probably want to make sure the right side wins this time.
Bachmann is a tax lawyer, that means she can unify us.
This is the GOP in 2012.
Saw that it was Paul after I posted, so I edited. Still, whether it’s Perry or Paul, the whole nullification schtick, while revolting, doesn’t surprise me coming from their pieholes.
81 | Decatur Deb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:54:55pm |
re: #78 Charles
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
If the cure is a laxative.
82 | blueraven Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:55:00pm |
83 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:55:07pm |
re: #78 Charles
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
Robert Smith is the only Cure.
84 | Baboon Cheeks Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:55:28pm |
85 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:55:55pm |
86 | The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:56:04pm |
re: #74 Stanley Sea
Just checked back in (making food) whats the scoop?
A wild Ronpaul appeared!
Ronpaul used NULLIFY!
…It’s not very effective.
88 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:57:13pm |
Well, I only caught the last segment (poor me, eh?)
But it looks like it was an orgy of wingnut call and response. I’m sure some anthropologist or ethnomusicologist will be able to trace the lineage of such outings back millennia, but as for me, I think I’ll stick to eating chocolate and being blissfully ignorant of the atavistic underbelly of America.
89 | AlexRogan Sat, Dec 3, 2011 6:58:33pm |
re: #78 Charles
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
Tell me he really didn’t say that….
91 | engineer cat Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:00:33pm |
GOP Nominates Gen Eric Republican On First Ballot
declares “a contradictionary, illogical, fictitious agenda requires a contradictory, illogical, fictitious leader”
vows to institute federal program cracking down on all subversive communists who believe the government has the right to institute federal programs
“i won’t rest until small government has been instituted in every womb in this country, and every cell phone conversation has been monitored for subversive big-government terrorist activity”
Mandatory “Freedom From Big Government” Federal ID Cards To Prove Legal Citizenship And Non-Muslim Status To Be Required For All Plane Boarding, Voting, And Employment
92 | Charleston Chew Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:00:59pm |
This was what people in the 50s imagined a Presidential debate in 2011 would look like — all on video screens, with many of the candidates broadcasting from the moon or Mars or something.
93 | goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:01:12pm |
re: #70 jaunte
Santorum’s marriage is under attack.
What his marriage might look like (totallly safe for work.)
95 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:01:50pm |
re: #87 jaunte
Cuccinelli: “Nobody really bombed here.”
I am going to enjoy seeing him get his ass handed to him in 2013 when he finds out the rest of Virginia does not share his wacky views. Can be in the primary or general election. Preferably the latter since that means Virginians left, center, and right will get to tell Cooch to go to hell.
96 | The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:01:54pm |
re: #92 Charleston Chew
This was what people in the 50s imagined a Presidential debate in 2011 would look like — all on video screens, with many of the candidates broadcasting from the moon or Mars or something.
Too few Tesla coils.
97 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:03:11pm |
re: #51 JasonA
Most important election since 1860!1!
Gingrich, right? And he’s just the Godhead to make sure we restore our nation to greatness under his benevolent hand.
The man is … a megalomaniac.
98 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:04:12pm |
99 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:04:41pm |
So, did I miss anything earth-shattering from the debate tonight? Anybody lose any teeth or wind up with a black eye?
100 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:05:37pm |
re: #78 Charles
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
Please tell me you made that up. LOL
101 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:05:41pm |
re: #99 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
So, did I miss anything earth-shattering from the debate tonight? Anybody lose any teeth or wind up with a black eye?
Were they even allowed near each other?
102 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:08:37pm |
re: #92 Charleston Chew
This was what people in the 50s imagined a Presidential debate in 2011 would look like — all on video screens, with many of the candidates broadcasting from the moon or Mars or something.
Ironic, since these jokers want to take us back to an idealized, Ozzie & Harriet version of the 1950’s where women and minorities knew their place and everything was about God, apple pie, and country.
103 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:10:04pm |
re: #37 blueraven
Mitt must think we are all stupid.
But then again this is FNC, the station of the uninformed. So I guess he can get away with it.
“He never made the mistake of overestimating the intelligence of the American mob.”
H. L. Mencken, on FDR
104 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:11:09pm |
re: #103 austin_blue
“He never made the mistake of overestimating the intelligence of the American mob.”
H. L. Mencken, on FDR
Speaking of which:
Newt Gingrich Leads Des Moines Register Poll, Ron Paul Second
ROFL
105 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:13:56pm |
Speaking of the uneducated, the fact that no one corrected Rick Perry here is ridiculous, especially since these are supposed to be AG’s:
Rick Perry Fails Govt 101: Claims Executive Orders Can Repeal Laws Passed By Congress
WTF. Why didn’t anyone call him out on this?
107 | Charles Johnson Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:15:12pm |
With a message like “America is sick from the inside,” I can’t understand why Rick Santorum isn’t the frontrunner.
108 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:15:21pm |
Approximately 1% of the population watches Fox News, including just the semi-regular/occasional viewer. If those 6 candidates think targeting their audience to that 1%, which let’s say are representative of a larger share of the actual electorate, is a way to win in a nation where 100,000,000 votes for President will be cast… then those candidates truly are delusional.
Yeah, most of those 100 million voters aren’t paying attention today, but once they actual do tune in, what does the GOP expect them to see? Mitt is the prettiest (visually) out of the bunch, but he’s very wealthy, from a wealthy family, and comes off like a slimy used car salesman. Newt and Paul come off as old codgers fighting the war before the last one. Bachmann is just out there with the Stepford Wife look, and Santorum looks reasonable but he’s not a known name and his need to talk religion will turn people off (even religious people who aren’t wingnuts.)
And as for Perry? I wonder what the people of TX think when they see him like he was during the brief 1.5 minute response tonight? Rambling like he’s half drunk, what can one say?
In my lifetime this has to be the low point of the GOP.
I suspect part of the problem is that the really capable people who are self declared as Republican simply know better than to get involved in this Presidential race, and go about their business in other fields. I was convinced from the start, and it’s been reinforced, that the only reason Huntsman entered the campaign this year was to build name recognition and experience in running a national campaign. I expect his real goal is 2016, and that he’ll be joined then by a few other less-nutty-than-today’s-candidates in that race.
109 | Kragar Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:16:42pm |
re: #107 Charles
With a message like “America is sick from the inside,” I can’t understand why Rick Santorum isn’t the frontrunner.
Its a puzzler.
110 | wheat-dogghazi Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:18:14pm |
re: #109 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Its a puzzler.
What I wonder is why he’s still even in the race.
111 | Mattand Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:18:55pm |
re: #78 Charles
Santorum: America is sick from the inside, and I’m the cure.
When I read this, I imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger saying it. Makes more sense that way.
112 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:18:55pm |
re: #110 wheatdogg
What I wonder is why he’s still even in the race.
Probabbly has a book in the works.
113 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:19:27pm |
re: #108 freetoken
I was convinced from the start, and it’s been reinforced, that the only reason Huntsman entered the campaign this year was to build name recognition and experience in running a national campaign. I expect his real goal is 2016, and that he’ll be joined then by a few other less-nutty-than-today’s-candidates in that race.
Hopefully by then Huntsman will have some less than nutty economic ideas. His endorsement of the Ryan plan was unbelievable fail.
114 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:19:27pm |
re: #35 jaunte
And Bachmann thinks the EPA is taking over private businesses.
Bachmann thinks RVs are dragons and looks behind the television because she can’t understand how you can fit so many minstrels inside
116 | Kragar Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:20:18pm |
re: #111 mattand
When I read this, I imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger saying it. Makes more sense that way.
Or Christopher Walken.
“America is sick, and the only cure…is more cowbell.”
117 | wheat-dogghazi Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:20:19pm |
No doubt. Same with Herman “Raising” Cain, or his wife, or both.
118 | goddamnedfrank Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:20:31pm |
re: #111 mattand
When I read this, I imagine Arnold Schwarzenegger saying it. Makes more sense that way.
It’s not a tumor!
119 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:20:48pm |
re: #107 Charles
With a message like “America is sick from the inside,” I can’t understand why Rick Santorum isn’t the frontrunner.
Translates as the “Heartland is Fucked”. Not a good message for a Republican.
120 | Mattand Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:20:56pm |
re: #116 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Or Christopher Walken.
“America is sick, and the only cure…is more cowbell.”
Quick! Call the Continental!
121 | AlexRogan Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:23:51pm |
122 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:24:48pm |
re: #107 Charles
With a message like “America is sick from the inside,” I can’t understand why Rick Santorum isn’t the frontrunner.
Is that anything like Jimmy Carter’s malaise?
123 | Kragar Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:24:55pm |
124 | Mattand Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:25:08pm |
re: #108 freetoken
I suspect part of the problem is that the really capable people who are self declared as Republican simply know better than to get involved in this Presidential race, and go about their business in other fields. I was convinced from the start, and it’s been reinforced, that the only reason Huntsman entered the campaign this year was to build name recognition and experience in running a national campaign. I expect his real goal is 2016, and that he’ll be joined then by a few other less-nutty-than-today’s-candidates in that race.
I suspect that our esteemed Gov. Christie is working from a similar playbook. I’m not a fan by any stretch, but compared to the current freak show he comes of as a Haight Ashbury hippie.
125 | Mattand Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:26:57pm |
re: #113 Lidane
Hopefully by then Huntsman will have some less than nutty economic ideas. His endorsement of the Ryan plan was unbelievable fail.
Isn’t Huntsman in the “no abortions for any reason” mob?
126 | justaminute Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:29:27pm |
I’m not sure how they got this impression but most of the TP is convinced President Obama can’t debate without his teleprompter and is mentally slow. Those that support Gingrich are convinced he will obliterate the President in the debates. Even Andrew Sullivan commented to this and I loved this quote of his:
It’s not just that Obama is a smart person whereas Gingrich is simply a dumb person’s idea of a smart person. – Andrew Sullivan
127 | Kragar Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:29:56pm |
re: #125 mattand
Isn’t Huntsman in the “no abortions for any reason” mob?
I know he’s for repealing Roe vs Wade.
128 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:30:20pm |
I’m pretty sure that a lot of possible candidates are waiting until the Tea Party loses power and influence.
129 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:31:51pm |
re: #128 EmmmieG
I’m pretty sure that a lot of possible candidates are waiting until the Tea Party loses power and influence.
Where were they before the Tea Party came along?
130 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:33:20pm |
re: #125 mattand
Isn’t Huntsman in the “no abortions for any reason” mob?
Yeah, but I don’t think he’s going to be endorsing any personhood amendments anytime soon. At least I hope not. I want to like the guy, but if he goes there, then forget it.
Quite frankly, the bad economic ideas are a bigger problem.
131 | Lidane Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:33:45pm |
re: #129 thedopefishlives
Where were they before the Tea Party came along?
Being marginalized as RINOs by the people who are now the Tea Party.
132 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:34:33pm |
re: #129 thedopefishlives
Where were they before the Tea Party came along?
Take, for example, Chris Christie. He was in New Jersey, I imagine. He just doesn’t want to have to contort to win Tea Party favor.
I know exactly one die hard TP’er.
We had a very brief discussion once about child abuse. Once I realized that she did not EVER think the state should take a child away, no matter what, the discussion ended.
How do you reason with a person who thinks that meth addicts and abusers have an indefinite right to custody of a child?
She was that way on a lot of things.
133 | Mattand Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:36:22pm |
re: #127 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I know he’s for repealing Roe vs Wade.
I’m probably wrong but I’m going to attribute this quote to Rachel Maddow:
“Government so small it can fit in your uterus.”
134 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:40:02pm |
re: #132 EmmmieG
Take, for example, Chris Christie. He was in New Jersey, I imagine. He just doesn’t want to have to contort to win Tea Party favor.
I know exactly one die hard TP’er.
We had a very brief discussion once about child abuse. Once I realized that she did not EVER think the state should take a child away, no matter what, the discussion ended.
How do you reason with a person who thinks that meth addicts and abusers have an indefinite right to custody of a child?
She was that way on a lot of things.
It’s the government is always bad belief. It’s the same belief that caused Herman Cain to unknowingly give a pro-choice position on abortion when asked. When anything is better then government involvement, absurdity ensues.
135 | Kragar Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:41:15pm |
Ron Paul Rejects Donald Trump-Moderated Debate
The exchanged started earlier today when Paul joined fellow presidential hopeful Jon Huntsman in bowing out of a Trump-moderated presidential debate sponsored by conservative website Newsmax.com and planned for Dec. 27 in Des Moines, Iowa.
Paul’s campaign chairman, Jesse Benton, distributed a scathing press release saying that Trump’s participation “is beneath the office of the Presidency and flies in the face of that office’s history and dignity.”
“Mr. Trump’s participation as moderator will distract from questions and answers concerning important issues such as the national economy, crushing federal government debt, the role of the federal government, foreign policy, and the like,” Benton said.
Benton called the choice of Trump as a moderator “wildly inappropriate” and said his presence at the debate will “contribute to an unwanted circus-like atmosphere.”
“Therefore, our candidate Ron Paul, the champion of the Constitution, has advised he will not attend,” Benton concluded.
Trump did not take the rejection well.
136 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:42:58pm |
re: #126 justaminute
I’m not sure how they got this impression but most of the TP is convinced President Obama can’t debate without his teleprompter and is mentally slow. Those that support Gingrich are convinced he will obliterate the President in the debates. Even Andrew Sullivan commented to this and I loved this quote of his:
It’s not just that Obama is a smart person whereas Gingrich is simply a dumb person’s idea of a smart person. – Andrew Sullivan
The modern GOP really does live in an alternate universe. Obama took on the entire Republican caucus on live television for nearly two hours without a teleprompter back in 2009. He debated the entire GOP caucus and won, he could probably handle just one of those fools easily.
137 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:44:26pm |
re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Will Willard “My first name is Mitt” Mitt Romney be in attendance?
138 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:46:35pm |
re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Paul’s campaign chairman, Jesse Benton, distributed a scathing press release saying that Trump’s participation “is beneath the office of the Presidency and flies in the face of that office’s history and dignity.”
Yet he’s been in debates moderated by Wolf Blitzer…
139 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:46:53pm |
re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Benton called the choice of Trump as a moderator “wildly inappropriate” and said his presence at the debate will “contribute to an unwanted circus-like atmosphere.”
What? You mean, the GOP debates are not supposed to be circus like?
140 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:47:01pm |
re: #138 JasonA
Yet he’s been in debates moderated by Wolf Blitzer…
He’s taken questions from Jim Cramer…
141 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:47:56pm |
Oh, catfight!
In a statement to ABC News, Trump called Paul “a clown-like candidate” who has “inconsequential poll numbers or a chance of winning.”
Trump went on to plug his book and questioned how Ron Paul would fare in the world of big business.
Trump’s reply prompted another statement from the Paul campaign.
In it Benton suggested that if Trump wanted to be taken seriously by Republicans, he needs to quit the reality show “Celebrity Apprentice” in which he stars.
“If he gets his act together, President Paul might consider getting his advice on fixing our country’s financial situation,” writes Benton in an email to ABC station KTRK-TV in Houston. “We understand Donald has a lot of experience with bankruptcy.”
142 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:48:53pm |
re: #135 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
“Therefore, our candidate Ron Paul, the champion of the Constitution, has advised he will not attend.”
Wow, he just keeps adding titles to himself, doesn’t he. The Only Man Who Can Save America, now the Champion of the Constitution. What’s next?
/Dear God, please don’t let it be President of the United States
143 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:49:31pm |
re: #141 moderatelyradicalliberal
Wait just a second. President Paul? He’s pretty presumptuous.
144 | justaminute Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:49:43pm |
re: #136 moderatelyradicalliberal
The modern GOP really does live in an alternate universe. Obama took on the entire Republican caucus on live television for nearly two hours without a teleprompter back in 2009. He debated the entire GOP caucus and won, he could probably handle just one of those fools easily.
They are excellent in denying reality. I live in OK and I am having such fun right now. When I mention their stable of candidates you can see them physically shrink. They cannot believe they are in this situation. Frankly almost all my customers are Republicans and they are conceding the election to Obama. Most of them say that if someone else doesn’t come on the scene they are not even voting.
145 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:49:55pm |
re: #142 thedopefishlives
Wow, he just keeps adding titles to himself, doesn’t he. The Only Man Who Can Save America, now the Champion of the Constitution. What’s next?
/Dear God, please don’t let it be President of the United States
Exalted Man-Christ Ron Paul will Rescue The Constitution from The Menace of Black People
146 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:52:10pm |
re: #144 justaminute
They are excellent in denying reality. I live in OK and I am having such fun right now. When I mention their stable of candidates you can see them physically shrink. They cannot believe they are in this situation. Frankly almost all my customers are Republicans are they are conceding the election to Obama. Most of them say that if someone else doesn’t come on the scene they are not even voting.
Yes, but do they understand it’s a problem of their own making? Garbage in, garbage out.
147 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:52:23pm |
re: #141 moderatelyradicalliberal
“inconsequential” - Paul is running second in Iowa at the moment.
148 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:52:29pm |
re: #113 Lidane
re: #132 EmmmieG
Ryan, Christie… these are some of the names I suspect we’ll hear quite a bit after Nov 2012. Huntsman didn’t have as wide name recognition, so he had to start this year building familiarity with his name.
Poor Mitt… he was just a few years too early. If he had held off this year and instead taken a reasonable job and slowly built up a following then he could have been part of the 2016 class, one of whom will likely to be President in 2017.
149 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:53:41pm |
re: #143 thedopefishlives
Wait just a second. President Paul? He’s pretty presumptuous.
Yeah, I saw that. LOL!
150 | Stanghazi Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:53:47pm |
re: #141 moderatelyradicalliberal
Oh, catfight!
oh my god. We’ve lost it.
fucking ratings! MONEY. Thats what it all is about. How many unpaid interns are involved? Prob all the fucking staff.
I’m sick.
151 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:54:24pm |
re: #143 thedopefishlives
Wait just a second. President Paul? He’s pretty presumptuous.
Tongue firmly in cheek - the “trump has a lot of experience with bankruptcy” gives the tone ;-P
152 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:55:14pm |
re: #148 freetoken
re: #132 EmmmieG
Ryan, Christie… these are some of the names I suspect we’ll hear quite a bit after Nov 2012. Huntsman didn’t have as wide name recognition, so he had to start this year building familiarity with his name.
Poor Mitt… he was just a few years too early. If he had held off this year and instead taken a reasonable job and slowly built up a following then he could have been part of the 2016 class, one of whom will likely to be President in 2017.
Agreed, Mitt has a better chance against someone who is ill defined - a sitting -resident is not ill defined.
153 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:55:31pm |
re: #150 Stanley Sea
oh my god. We’ve lost it.
fucking ratings! MONEY. Thats what it all is about. How many unpaid interns are involved? Prob all the fucking staff.
I’m sick.
My parents have always been politically active so I’ve been watching campaigns since I was a child, but I often wonder what someone who’s young and just now paying attention to politics must be thinking.
154 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:56:17pm |
Unless there really is a national tragedy or scandal that can be tied to Obama, I really can’t see Barack Obama losing to any of those clowns we saw tonight.
I think it doesn’t even matter anymore that the Democratic “base” isn’t so thrilled with Obama. The not-a-circus circus that the GOP has become (on the national level) is really out of touch with a lot of people in this country. Appealing to millionaires and the theocratic-wanna-be-rich demographic just isn’t a broad appeal.
155 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:56:29pm |
re: #148 freetoken
re: #132 EmmmieG
Ryan, Christie… these are some of the names I suspect we’ll hear quite a bit after Nov 2012. Huntsman didn’t have as wide name recognition, so he had to start this year building familiarity with his name.
Poor Mitt… he was just a few years too early. If he had held off this year and instead taken a reasonable job and slowly built up a following then he could have been part of the 2016 class, one of whom will likely to be President in 2017.
And he might not have had to turn himself into crazy rightwing man to do it. But he put himself on that path back in 2006, or perhaps even 2005 when he began courting the SoCons over at National Review.
156 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:57:06pm |
re: #153 moderatelyradicalliberal
My parents have always been politically active so I’ve been watching campaigns since I was a child, but I often wonder what someone who’s young and just now paying attention to politics must be thinking.
157 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:58:33pm |
Mitt’s problem is he wants to be president so bad that if it means rejecting everything he stood for to get a chance, he’ll do it. If he needed to be on the left, he’d do it. Guy has no principles.
158 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:58:52pm |
re: #154 freetoken
Unless there really is a national tragedy or scandal that can be tied to Obama, I really can’t see Barack Obama losing to any of those clowns we saw tonight.
I think it doesn’t even matter anymore that the Democratic “base” isn’t so thrilled with Obama. The not-a-circus circus that the GOP has become (on the national level) is really out of touch with a lot of people in this country. Appealing to millionaires and the theocratic-wanna-be-rich demographic just isn’t a broad appeal.
Maybe, but hating the tyrannical dictator who lords over you like a king while the country is gripped in poverty and turmoil has a very broad appeal. And sure, only the 1% of people who are Conservative cultists believe all of the dogma. But a lot of people believe some of it.
159 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 7:59:06pm |
re: #152 wozzablog
Agreed, Mitt has a better chance against someone who is ill defined - a siting -resident is not ill defined.
I think Mitt Romney’s problem is that he is defined. I actually understand why Republicans don’t like him. There isn’t much too like. It’s clear he thinks he’s awesome, but most people see that he’s dishonest, untrustworthy and an amoral, rich, entitled prick with no beliefs aside from the belief that he should be president. He’s a complete phony and it’s too late for him to be anything else.
160 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:00:04pm |
re: #154 freetoken
Unless there really is a national tragedy or scandal that can be tied to Obama, I really can’t see Barack Obama losing to any of those clowns we saw tonight.
I think it doesn’t even matter anymore that the Democratic “base” isn’t so thrilled with Obama. The not-a-circus circus that the GOP has become (on the national level) is really out of touch with a lot of people in this country. Appealing to millionaires and the theocratic-wanna-be-rich demographic just isn’t a broad appeal.
Better belive that if Gingrich is the GOP candidate *all* the good will left towards Bill Clinton comes out for Obama. The base (over the age of 30) gets fired up double quick.
161 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:00:54pm |
162 | thedopefishlives Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:01:21pm |
re: #158 Renaissance_Man
Maybe, but hating the tyrannical dictator who lords over you like a king while the country is gripped in poverty and turmoil has a very broad appeal. And sure, only the 1% of people who are Conservative cultists believe all of the dogma. But a lot of people believe some of it.
While that is true, the economy is recovering and Obama does have some rather big war-on-terror feathers in his cap to go along with it. If he can keep Congress from completely tanking the situation before next November, I think he’ll hold his office by a healthy margin.
163 | EdDantes Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:01:32pm |
re: #159 moderatelyradicalliberal
Now, tell us what you really think.
164 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:02:52pm |
re: #160 wozzablog
I really doubt Newt will win the nomination. His role in this circus is to keep the attendance up so the gate receipts will be high enough to pay the overhead.
165 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:02:52pm |
re: #159 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think Mitt Romney’s problem is that he is defined. I actually understand why Republicans don’t like him. There isn’t much too like. It’s clear he thinks he’s awesome, but most people see that he’s dishonest, untrustworthy and an amoral, rich, entitled prick with no beliefs aside from the belief that he should be president. He’s a complete phony and it’s too late for him to be anything else.
That’s pretty much it. Hard to get more unlikable than Mitt. He’s got a certain arrogance to him. And for a party eager to define Obama as arrogant and snobby, Mitt really is that.
166 | justaminute Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:03:30pm |
re: #146 moderatelyradicalliberal
Yes, but do they understand it’s a problem of their own making? Garbage in, garbage out.
No. But I can’t get really in depth with them at the restaurant. Politics is not good for business. But I did have to work the other night and I will talk about it to our long time customers but you can’t get to end depth.
But American Airlines is getting ready to lay off people in Tulsa. And that is a good lead in as well as OK has hit the top number of food stamp customers. It make an excellent starting off point.
167 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:04:24pm |
re: #159 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think Mitt Romney’s problem is that he is defined. I actually understand why Republicans don’t like him. There isn’t much too like. It’s clear he thinks he’s awesome, but most people see that he’s dishonest, untrustworthy and an amoral, rich, entitled prick with no beliefs aside from the belief that he should be president. He’s a complete phony and it’s too late for him to be anything else.
Yeah, which is why having a defined opponent is a bad thing - claritative distinctions can be made. If the Dems make a God awful pick in ‘16, Mitt could be the guy.
168 | Stanghazi Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:04:37pm |
re: #154 freetoken
Unless there really is a national tragedy or scandal that can be tied to Obama, I really can’t see Barack Obama losing to any of those clowns we saw tonight.
I think it doesn’t even matter anymore that the Democratic “base” isn’t so thrilled with Obama. The not-a-circus circus that the GOP has become (on the national level) is really out of touch with a lot of people in this country. Appealing to millionaires and the theocratic-wanna-be-rich demographic just isn’t a broad appeal.
Missed the whole thing. How was the Newty?
169 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:05:31pm |
re: #164 freetoken
I really doubt Newt will win the nomination. His role in this circus is to keep the attendance up so the gate receipts will be high enough to pay the overhead.
Then we are back to Mitt.
Who’s atleast competent - the highest complement you can pay in this race it seems.
170 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:05:37pm |
re: #163 EdDantes
Now, tell us what you really think.
The only reason Willard is the most “presidential” is his looks. If he were over weight and bald, but had the same background and personality, he’d be a joke polling in the single digits. Nobody likes him, but there are few guys in the MSM with man-crushes that keep pushing him.
171 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:06:15pm |
re: #168 Stanley Sea
Missed the whole thing. How was the Newty?
Half-baked.
(Sorry, couldn’t resist.)
172 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:07:52pm |
re: #166 justaminute
No. But I can’t get really in depth with them at the restaurant. Politics is not good for business. But I did have to work the other night and I will talk about it to our long time customers but you can’t get to end depth.
But American Airlines is getting ready to lay off people in Tulsa. And that is a good lead in as well as OK has hit the top number of food stamp customers. It make an excellent starting off point.
I understand that. It’s just kinds funny. They know there’s a problem, but they seem truly oblivious to the cause.
173 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:08:16pm |
re: #170 moderatelyradicalliberal
The only reason Willard is the most “presidential” is his looks. If he were over weight and bald, but had the same background and personality, he’d be a joke polling in the single digits. Nobody likes him, but there are few guys in the MSM with man-crushes that keep pushing him.
In a sane party Huntsman would be a contender.
174 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:08:28pm |
re: #136 moderatelyradicalliberal
The modern GOP really does live in an alternate universe. Obama took on the entire Republican caucus on live television for nearly two hours without a teleprompter back in 2009. He debated the entire GOP caucus and won, he could probably handle just one of those fools easily.
yes, but Fox viewers didn’t see that — they cut away 10 minutes in (as soon as it became clear who was mopping the floor with whom).
175 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:09:36pm |
re: #169 wozzablog
Then we are back to Mitt.
Who’s atleast competent - the highest complement you can pay in this race it seems.
Except for when he’s giving interviews. Did you see the FOX news debacle? He couldn’t handle an interview on FOX of all places. No wonder he avoids them.
176 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:09:39pm |
re: #173 JasonA
In a sane party Huntsman would be a contender.
In a sane party, half the current candidates wouldn’t be running.
177 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:09:45pm |
In all honesty, if Huntsman and Romney weren’t in the race, would another sane contender emerge just to try to salvage the party?
Or would it be chuckles and grins all the way down?
178 | EdDantes Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:10:51pm |
re: #173 JasonA
In a sane party Huntsman would be a contender.
Der Jagermeister does not conform to the Republican purity act of 1516.
179 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:10:56pm |
re: #173 JasonA
In a sane party Huntsman would be a contender.
He was the only one I had any worries about. Turns out the GOP is too crazy to nominate anybody that’s worth a damn.
180 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:11:13pm |
re: #177 EmmmieG
In all honesty, if Huntsman and Romney weren’t in the race, would another sane contender emerge just to try to salvage the party?
Or would it be chuckles and grins all the way down?
Salvage the party? No. But they might see an opportunity for themselves. Maybe Christie would jump in. On the other hand, TPaw probably would’ve been able to stay in.
181 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:11:44pm |
re: #170 moderatelyradicalliberal
The only reason Willard is the most “presidential” is his looks. If he were over weight and bald, but had the same background and personality, he’d be a joke polling in the single digits. Nobody likes him, but there are few guys in the MSM with man-crushes that keep pushing him.
He’s got enough money and remaining cache from being a State Gvernor to keep himself hanging around on merit.
They aren’t great merits - but:
* he knows china is nuclear,
*knows what Libya is,
*hasn’t ruled out Muslims in cabinet,
* hasn’t cheated on two dying wives and then claimed disclosure of Tiffany credit as being “worst month in life”
* hasn’t developed a glassy stare
* hasn’t fallen about drunk in New Hampshire
* hasn’t said vaccines cause retardation
In this field what recommends a candidate is entirely relative.
182 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:12:03pm |
re: #179 moderatelyradicalliberal
He was the only one I had any worries about. Turns out the GOP is too crazy to nominate anybody that’s worth a damn.
I really dislike a lot of his ideas, but I’m also of the opinion that he’s Presidential material.
183 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:13:47pm |
re: #175 moderatelyradicalliberal
Except for when he’s giving interviews. Did you see the FOX news debacle? He couldn’t handle an interview on FOX of all places. No wonder he avoids them.
He was pissed off - Newt (who’s flip flopped as often) was being given a handjob by Hannity the same evening but Mitt was being torn a new one by Brett Baier, ZERO softballs to a GOP candidate in an FNC interview is a new record.
He finally twigged who the Murdoch candidate was - and it wasn’t him.
184 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:15:03pm |
If Mitt loses here. I think he’s done in 2016. He’ll have the image of a twice run, twice failed. Plus he’ll be the same age as Reagan was when he was first elected 69. GOP needs new blood and frankly new idas too(tax cuts, gays/secularism bad Christian good, blah blah isn’t going to cut it forever). Huntsman is the only one close to being under 50.
185 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:16:09pm |
re: #184 HappyWarrior
If Mitt loses here. I think he’s done in 2016. He’ll have the image of a twice run, twice failed. Plus he’ll be the same age as Reagan was when he was first elected 69. GOP needs new blood. Huntsman is the only one close to being under 50.
If Huntsman can steer clear of the base and do the minimum to achieve name recognition without going full on whackjob he’ll be a decent shout in’16.
186 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:16:12pm |
re: #183 wozzablog
He was pissed off - Newt (who’s flip flopped as often) was being given a handjob by Hannity the same evening but Mitt was being torn a new one by Brett Baier, ZERO softballs to a GOP candidate in an FNC interview is a new record.
He finally twigged who the Murdoch candidate was - and it wasn’t him.
I figured that too. FOX is going to do their best to keep Newt in the race at least until the Florida primary. He lost it because they’re just not into him and now he knows it for sure.
187 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:16:44pm |
re: #160 wozzablog
Better belive that if Gingrich is the GOP candidate *all* the good will left towards Bill Clinton comes out for Obama. The base (over the age of 30) gets fired up double quick.
Obama/WJC 2012. Biden probably would be willing to retire. LOL.
I don’t think there’s any amendment preventing a former president from serving as vice president, is there? LOL
188 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:17:18pm |
re: #183 wozzablog
Murdoch’s candidate? That would be Obama.
Without an enemy, Fox News would have much less to work with.
Plus, the rest of the News Corp empire works best with the status quo.
189 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:17:40pm |
re: #183 wozzablog
He was pissed off - Newt (who’s flip flopped as often) was being given a handjob by Hannity the same evening but Mitt was being torn a new one by Brett Baier, ZERO softballs to a GOP candidate in an FNC interview is a new record.
He finally twigged who the Murdoch candidate was - and it wasn’t him.
+1
190 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:18:18pm |
re: #185 wozzablog
If Huntsman can steer clear of the base and do the minimum t achieve name recognition without going full on whackjob he’ll be a decent shout in’16.
He’s got a good future. It’s telling about the GOP electorate that he’s got no shot and people like Bachmann and Cain did. Dude has a good domestic and international resume. I don’t agree with his positions on everything but Jon Huntsman would be a far better candidate/president than those two. He actually understands government.
191 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:18:34pm |
re: #169 wozzablog
Then we are back to Mitt.
Who’s atleast competent - the highest complement you can pay in this race it seems.
Yes great. He is not crazy. Just a lying, opportunistic sack of shit who would sell his own mother for a chance to be President. Its a heck of an endorsement.
192 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:20:20pm |
The words “President Gingrich” make me throw up in my mouth a little.
193 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:20:50pm |
re: #52 HappyWarrior
John C. Calhoun’s ghost just got its wings.
That’s fine. just as long as the person who actually wins the 2012 election (it won’t be Perry) gets to hang Perry “as high as Haman”.
194 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:21:27pm |
re: #192 JasonA
The words “President Gingrich” make me throw up in my mouth a little.
I’m sure people thought the same in 1994 when Speaker Gingrich became a reality. But yeah I can’t really imagine any of these guys outside Huntsman and Romney being even decent presidents.
195 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:21:58pm |
re: #191 Petero1818
Yes great. He is not crazy. Just a lying, opportunistic sack of shit who would sell his own mother for a chance to be President. Its a heck of an endorsement.
Those things you listed are his competencies. That’s why he excelled at vulture capitalism.
196 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:22:03pm |
re: #191 Petero1818
Yes great. He is not crazy. Just a lying, opportunistic sack of shit who would sell his own mother for a chance to be President. Its a heck of an endorsement.
My shrugging has reached Gallic proportions.
Best of a bad lot in the top tier.
Romney isn’t Gingrich - who I have decided is Evil and Paul who I think is unhinged.
Not evil and not crazy, enough to get most people pretty far, but not enough to get someone to the top of the GOP ticket at the moment.
197 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:22:31pm |
re: #188 freetoken
Murdoch’s candidate? That would be Obama.
Without an enemy, Fox News would have much less to work with.
Plus, the rest of the News Corp empire works best with the status quo.
Ayep. At this point, a lot of it boils down to something I’ve heard more than one wingnut declare: They’d rather have another 4 years of Obama than spend 4 years defending Romney.
198 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:23:35pm |
re: #164 freetoken
I really doubt Newt will win the nomination. His role in this circus is to keep the attendance up so the gate receipts will be high enough to pay the overhead.
I dunno. Hannity’s been fluffing him since about forever on the radio and on his TV show. I think the base is possibly crazy enough to nominate him.
As revolting as I find Gingrich, he’s got a lot of fans over at hotair and other conservative sites. They think he’s brilliant. And he begged for forgiveness from James Dobson, so his marital issues don’t matter to them any more.
199 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:23:50pm |
re: #197 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Ayep. At this point, a lot of it boils down to something I’ve heard more than one wingnut declare: They’d rather have another 4 years of Obama than spend 4 years defending Romney.
If Willard wasn’t a robot, I think his feelings would be hurt by now.
200 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:24:25pm |
re: #197 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Ayep. At this point, a lot of it boils down to something I’ve heard more than one wingnut declare: They’d rather have another 4 years of Obama than spend 4 years defending Romney.
201 | freetoken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:25:14pm |
re: #197 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Murdoch is no wingnut, though. He is one of the, and is probably the, most successful businessman in the media business. His entire history has shown that he cares about money. It also shows that he learned well from his predecessors who realized that the masses can be led to buy just about anything. Murdoch discovered that yellow journalism can be profitable, unlike hard journalism which tends to be a money hole.
202 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:25:20pm |
re: #199 moderatelyradicalliberal
If Willard wasn’t a robot, I think his feelings would be hurt by now.
That hurts where I should have feelings…
(Jon Stewart’s ripped that one merilessly)
203 | Four More Tears Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:25:20pm |
I could see Gingrich scoring points in the early primaries, which is scary since those are the most rewarding ones.
204 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:25:24pm |
re: #197 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Ayep. At this point, a lot of it boils down to something I’ve heard more than one wingnut declare: They’d rather have another 4 years of Obama than spend 4 years defending Romney.
That’s probably Limbaugh’s construct too. He doesn’t want to spend the next four years defending Romney and he knows he gets more listeners telling his moron fans that Obama’s killing Christians in Uganda.
205 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:29:07pm |
re: #176 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
In a sane party, half the current candidates wouldn’t be running.
I’m trying to remember a line up of Democrats in recent history that was so utterly rotten from top to bottom - and I can’t.
I just can’t.
206 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:29:38pm |
re: #198 funky chicken
I dunno. Hannity’s been fluffing him since about forever on the radio and on his TV show. I think the base is possibly crazy enough to nominate him.
As revolting as I find Gingrich, he’s got a lot of fans over at hotair and other conservative sites. They think he’s brilliant. And he begged for forgiveness from James Dobson, so his marital issues don’t matter to them any more.
Those are the men. Bros Before Hos and all that. If Newt is the nominee, the GOP will lose the women’s vote by 15-20 points. Evangelical women all over America will do what they did in Mississippi a few weeks ago with the “personhood” law. Say one thing to pollsters when their husbands are around and vote the opposite in the privacy of the voting booth. They will not warm to Newt. Or the botoxed, blond homewrecker he’s married to. She’ll be the most unhelpful, unliked potential first lady in history.
207 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:29:41pm |
re: #188 freetoken
Murdoch’s candidate? That would be Obama.
Without an enemy, Fox News would have much less to work with.
Plus, the rest of the News Corp empire works best with the status quo.
That’s often true for news media that (nominally) supports a given side: They media outlets are much more powerful within their movement when that movement is in the opposition. When their movement holds power, the news outlet has to face the rather dreary task of actually supporting things getting done, which is always harder and often makes far more enemies than simply viewing with alarm.
208 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:30:42pm |
re: #204 HappyWarrior
That’s probably Limbaugh’s construct too. He doesn’t want to spend the next four years defending Romney and he knows he gets more listeners telling his moron fans that Obama’s killing Christians in Uganda.
The base wasn’t all that into MCcain, immediately after he lost a lot of the right wing media figures said they were glad they didn’t have to defend him anymore.
Dude had a healthcare plan, believed in climate change (etc).
209 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:31:27pm |
re: #206 moderatelyradicalliberal
Agreed, but he could still be the GOP nominee. Which nauseates me.
210 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:31:55pm |
re: #203 JasonA
I could see Gingrich scoring points in the early primaries, which is scary since those are the most rewarding ones.
I think Florida is the state to watch. Newt’s ahead right now.
211 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:32:13pm |
re: #208 wozzablog
The base wasn’t all that into MCcain, immediately after he lost a lot of the right wing media figures said they were glad they didn’t have to defend him anymore.
Dude had a healthcare plan, believed in climate change (etc).
Yep. They hated him for being a realist on immigration too which was the big factor behind Hayworth primarying him and why Arpaio hates him.
212 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:32:53pm |
re: #201 freetoken
Murdoch is no wingnut, though. He is one of the, and is probably the, most successful businessman in the media business. His entire history has shown that he cares about money. It also shows that he learned well from his predecessors who realized that the masses can be led to buy just about anything. Murdoch discovered that yellow journalism can be profitable, unlike hard journalism which tends to be a money hole.
Murdoch abides by the rule of journalism that goes “Give the people what they want.” And what “the people,” in this case the wingnut base, want it anybody but Romney. So promoting anybody but Romney, even if it means steering things pro-Obama to a degree, is what they’ll do. Fox News would rather spend the next 4 years continuing to demonize Obama than 5 years (including the primaries/general election) defending Romney.
213 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:33:28pm |
so this is how the field shapes up.
Bachman- really crazy, homophobic, bible thumper
Santorum - crazy, bible thumper
Huntsman - smart, centrist, but weak. A VP maybe. Not a President in my view
Gingrich -narcissistic asshole and morally bankrupt
Perry - crazy, bible thumper with little grasp of reality
Romney - opportunistic and morally bankrupt, moderate at heart, but will sell his soul to the highest bidder
Paul - Crazy, smart, crazy, possibly senile, did I mention crazy?
How bad does the economy have to be for Obama to lose to someone in this lot?
214 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:33:39pm |
re: #210 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think Florida is the state to watch. Newt’s ahead right now.
The real interesting thing for me is how Newt has cut in to Mitt’s lead in NH. Can remember earlier in the fall when Mitt looked like NH was going to be but a formality.
215 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:33:44pm |
re: #206 moderatelyradicalliberal
Those are the men. Bros Before Hos and all that. If Newt is the nominee, the GOP will lose the women’s vote by 15-20 points. Evangelical women all over America will do what they did in Mississippi a few weeks ago with the “personhood” law. Say one thing to pollsters when their husbands are around and vote the opposite in the privacy of the voting booth. They will not warm to Newt. Or the botoxed, blond homewrecker he’s married to. She’ll be the most unhelpful, unliked potential first lady in history.
You don’t think that America needs a First Automaton?
216 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:34:11pm |
re: #210 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think Florida is the state to watch. Newt’s ahead right now.
Nobody remind him that he has to go campaign there to seal the deal. AKA the Rudy juxtaposition.
217 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:36:22pm |
re: #213 Petero1818
so this is how the field shapes up.
Bachman- really crazy, homophobic, bible thumper
Santorum - crazy, bible thumper
Huntsman - smart, centrist, but weak. A VP maybe. Not a President in my view
Gingrich -narcissistic asshole and morally bankrupt
Perry - crazy, bible thumper with little grasp of reality
Romney - opportunistic and morally bankrupt, moderate at heart, but will sell his soul to the highest bidder
Paul - Crazy, smart, crazy, possibly senile, did I mention crazy?How bad does the economy have to be for Obama to lose to someone in this lot?
Really, the candidate field boils down to Gingrich & Romney. Crazy Uncle Paul may do better next year than in past runs, but he’s not going to be anything higher than third place. The rest of the candidates are, at this point, fighting over who avoids taking home the “Last Place” trophy.
218 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:36:36pm |
re: #214 HappyWarrior
The real interesting thing for me is how Newt has cut in to Mitt’s lead in NH. Can remember earlier in the fall when Mitt looked like NH was going to be but a formality.
Same thing happened in 2008. McCain squeaked out a win after the same paper endorsed him over Romney who had been miles ahead. I’ll bet Willard shit himself when he heard he lost that endorsement again.
219 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:38:29pm |
re: #218 moderatelyradicalliberal
Same thing happened in 2008. McCain squeaked out a win after the same paper endorsed him over Romney who had been miles ahead. I’ll bet Willard shit himself when he heard he lost that endorsement again.
The NH paper hates Mitt. He was never going to get that endorsement. They’ve beaten him up every year since forever.
220 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:38:45pm |
re: #217 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds
Really, the candidate field boils down to Gingrich & Romney. Crazy Uncle Paul may do better next year than in past runs, but he’s not going to be anything higher than third place. The rest of the candidates are, at this point, fighting over who avoids taking home the “Last Place” trophy.
I agree. I am more concerned actually at how messed up the entire field is. The reality is nominating Gingrich or Romney can only make sense when you look at how fucked up the rest of the field is.
221 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:39:30pm |
re: #215 EmmmieG
You don’t think that America needs a First Automaton?
I think the third Mrs. Gingrich better pull a Jolie and adopt an adorable African orphan/human shield because American women tend to hate cheating husbands and mistresses equally. As of today, she’s got nothing else going to redeem her.
222 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:39:55pm |
re: #218 moderatelyradicalliberal
Same thing happened in 2008. McCain squeaked out a win after the same paper endorsed him over Romney who had been miles ahead. I’ll bet Willard shit himself when he heard he lost that endorsement again.
Honestly, I think Mitt’s the most overrated candidate ever. He’s been elected once in his whole career and that was in a Republican year and he ran as a moderate. I think Mitt will probably become less unlikable once his ambitions are done. To steal a page from history here, it was said Robert Taft became more easy to work with after Eisenhower beat him in 1952.
223 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:40:28pm |
re: #220 Petero1818
I agree. I am more concerned actually at how messed up the entire field is. The reality is nominating Gingrich or Romney can only make sense when you look at how fucked up the rest of the field is.
Combined with how monumentally Failhard the base is - Huntsman not getting a sniff of even 4th place is criminal.
224 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:41:17pm |
re: #222 HappyWarrior
Honestly, I think Mitt’s the most overrated candidate ever. He’s been elected once in his whole career and that was in a Republican year and he ran as a moderate. I think Mitt will probably become less unlikable once his ambitions are done. To steal a page from history here, it was said Robert Taft became more easy to work with after Eisenhower beat him in 1952.
I know. The guy has run for office like 4-5 times and only won one election. He’s not just unlikeable, he’s not all that good at politics.
225 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:42:15pm |
re: #223 wozzablog
Combined with how monumentally Failhard the base is - Huntsman not getting a sniff of even 4th place is criminal.
There is no place for a Huntsman type candidate in the modern 2 party system. I am afraid that centrists on both sides will have a rough go for a while.
226 | Targetpractice Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:42:24pm |
re: #220 Petero1818
I agree. I am more concerned actually at how messed up the entire field is. The reality is nominating Gingrich or Romney can only make sense when you look at how fucked up the rest of the field is.
It’s pretty much a given that the opposition party’s stable of candidates is generally lackluster when pitted against an incumbent. But this year’s field is so absolutely sad, it’s almost enough to invoke pity. The GOP’s only real, viable tactic next year will be to try to demonize Obama as much as possible. The problem with that tactic is that they’ve spent the last 3 years building up a voting record as a party of the rich and connected, at a time when that demographic is more reviled than ever.
227 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:42:29pm |
re: #222 HappyWarrior
Honestly, I think Mitt’s the most overrated candidate ever. He’s been elected once in his whole career and that was in a Republican year and he ran as a moderate. I think Mitt will probably become less unlikable once his ambitions are done. To steal a page from history here, it was said Robert Taft became more easy to work with after Eisenhower beat him in 1952.
Romney is only rated so high beause of the quality of the field.
228 | Interesting Times Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:42:39pm |
Here’s a weird-ass first comment. Is it a reference to a meme of some sort, or a song? Makes absolutely no sense otherwise (much like the GOP race…)
229 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:43:32pm |
re: #211 HappyWarrior
Yep. They hated him for being a realist on immigration too which was the big factor behind Hayworth primarying him and why Arpaio hates him.
The problem with that turned out to be that Hayworth had lots of baggage that McCain could use to pound on him. Moreover, unlike Bennet in Utah, McCain knew he was facing a serious primary challenge. McCain then acted smartly to neutralize that challenge.
230 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:44:04pm |
re: #228 publicityStunted
Here’s a weird-ass first comment. Is it a reference to a meme of some sort, or a song? Makes absolutely no sense otherwise (much like the GOP race…)
Sock.
231 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:44:13pm |
re: #225 Petero1818
There is no place for a Huntsman type candidate in the modern 2 party system. I am afraid that centrists on both sides will have a rough go for a while.
Except for, like, 2008 to present, where they can apparently become President.
232 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:45:05pm |
re: #224 moderatelyradicalliberal
I know. The guy has run for office like 4-5 times and only won one election. He’s not just unlikeable, he’s not all that good at politics.
Yep. Seriously, he’s better cast as a snobby businessman than president.
233 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:45:54pm |
re: #232 HappyWarrior
Yep. Seriously, he’s better cast as a snobby businessman than president.
Running against Ted Kennedy and losing was, essentially, offering yourself up as a ritual sacrifice.
234 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:46:34pm |
re: #229 Dark_Falcon
The problem with that turned out to be that Hayworth had lots of baggage that McCain could use to pound on him. Moreover, unlike Bennet in Utah, McCain knew he was facing a serious primary challenge. McCain then acted smartly to neutralize that challenge.
Also, Utah Republicans pick their nominee with a convention, not a primary. If you get enough nuts as delegates to the convention you can more easily toss out and incumbent. The people of Utah didn’t actually get to vote Bennett out of office. The decision was made for them. AZ has a traditional primary do McCain got to have the voters decide.
235 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:46:59pm |
re: #223 wozzablog
Combined with how monumentally Failhard the base is - Huntsman not getting a sniff of even 4th place is criminal.
He’s too moderate, even for me. I want a sane conservative, not a moderate.
236 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:47:26pm |
re: #225 Petero1818
There is no place for a Huntsman type candidate in the modern 2 party system. I am afraid that centrists on both sides will have a rough go for a while.
My guess is that Romney came to that same conclusion in 2005, and decided to reinvent himself for the times. It was just too bizarre, and nobody believed it.
237 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:48:05pm |
Just watched the Hokies (I’m a fan) have their ASSES handed to them.
238 | Feline Fearless Leader Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:48:34pm |
re: #221 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think the third Mrs. Gingrich better pull a Jolie and adopt an adorable African orphan/human shield because American women tend to hate cheating husbands and mistresses equally. As of today, she’s got nothing else going to redeem her.
She’ll attract the owl vote though.
/
239 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:49:04pm |
re: #233 EmmmieG
Running against Ted Kennedy and losing was, essentially, offering yourself up as a ritual sacrifice.
Ha yeah. He was still fairly reasonable back then but Teddy had the best line about Mitt: I’m pro choice, my opponent is multiple choice. He annoys me when he tries to act tough on defense too. Such a bullshit artist from a guy who demonstrated in favor of the draft and didn’t serve a day. And then he made some comparison four years ago between his sons helping his campaign being equivalent to serving in uniform.
240 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:50:00pm |
re: #231 Renaissance_Man
Except for, like, 2008 to present, where they can apparently become President.
Obama was better known than a lot of people gave him credit for being before he announced his pursuit of the presidency.
Long term state senator, key note speaker at the party convention, well publicised run for Senate seat in Illinois.
The base - those turned on by Democratic politics knew a lot about Obama before he announced on the steps in Springfield.
Huntsman doesn’t have that - and he doesn’t share the reflexive nationalistic populism of the GOP base. Utah is not a hot bed of interest for GOP local watchers natrionwide (see Mormonism).
State Governor sure, but in Utah.
241 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:51:16pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
He’s too moderate, even for me. I want a sane conservative, not a moderate.
On which issues is Huntsman too moderate for you?
242 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:51:37pm |
re: #235 Dark_Falcon
He’s too moderate, even for me. I want a sane conservative, not a moderate.
He endorsed Ryan’s insane economic plan, which should make him sufficiently crazy and radical to count as a ‘conservative’ in your book. He liked Cain’s 999 plan too, which is if anything even nuttier. He has all the litmus test positions like repealing Roe vs Wade. What position of his is too moderate?
243 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:52:25pm |
re: #241 funky chicken
On which issues is Huntsman too moderate for you?
The ones the right wing media are pushing, ofcourse, which is “tone”.
244 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:52:32pm |
re: #240 wozzablog
Obama was better known than a lot of people gave him credit for being before he announced his pursuit of the presidency.
Long term state senator, key note speaker at the party convention, well publicised run for Senate seat in Illinois.
The base - those turned on by Democratic politics knew a lot about Obama before he announced on the steps in Springfield.Huntsman doesn’t have that - and he doesn’t share the reflexive nationalistic populism of the GOP base.
Yeah Obama’s detractors acted like he was this one term senator and “community organizer oh no the humanity!”I remember him in 2004 quite well actually. Got a good friend from Illinois who liked him a bit.
245 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:52:45pm |
re: #231 Renaissance_Man
Except for, like, 2008 to present, where they can apparently become President.
Obama has governed from the center. I do not believe that is how he won the primary.
246 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:53:13pm |
re: #231 Renaissance_Man
Except for, like, 2008 to present, where they can apparently become President.
Obama was more liberal than Hillary in the primaries.
247 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:53:43pm |
re: #240 wozzablog
Obama was better known than a lot of people gave him credit for being before he announced his pursuit of the presidency.
Long term state senator, key note speaker at the party convention, well publicised run for Senate seat in Illinois.
The base - those turned on by Democratic politics knew a lot about Obama before he announced on the steps in Springfield.Huntsman doesn’t have that - and he doesn’t share the reflexive nationalistic populism of the GOP base. Utah is not a hot bed of interest for GOP locals (see Mormonism).
State Governor sure, but in Utah.
Sure, but the point was that a centrist can indeed do well. (US definition of centrist, anyway.)
248 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:54:08pm |
re: #225 Petero1818
There is no place for a Huntsman type candidate in the modern 2 party system. I am afraid that centrists on both sides will have a rough go for a while.
That is largely true. The party bases on both sides are far more organized and far more ideological than was once the case. Someone dedicated to centrism isn’t really going to be liked by either side’s base these days.
249 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:55:29pm |
re: #247 Renaissance_Man
Clinton was a centrist, pappy Bush was a centrist. W ran well within the main stream.
250 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:55:41pm |
re: #247 Renaissance_Man
Sure, but the point was that a centrist can indeed do well. (US definition of centrist, anyway.)
Well, the center’s placement varies from country to country and from issue to issue.
251 | funky chicken Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:57:06pm |
re: #249 wozzablog
Clinton was a centrist, pappy Bush was a centrist. W ran well within the main stream.
But he won the GOP primaries by running far to the right of McCain in 1999/2000.
Clinton won the dem primaries by being more centrist than Paul Tsongas, who was my favorite.
252 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:57:37pm |
re: #243 wozzablog
The ones the right wing media are pushing, ofcourse, which is “tone”.
That is it. It is the fact that he is weak. He sounds weak. Don’t get me wrong. I think he is smart, likeable, and a guy you want in the room when decisions are being made. I do not think he is a leader, a motivator, a President. Rather, he is a diplomat. Someone who can read a situation well, smooth over a problem, build consensus when the parties feel it is in their interests. As I said earlier. I think he is a VP. Not Pres.
253 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:58:16pm |
re: #249 wozzablog
Clinton was a centrist, pappy Bush was a centrist. W ran well within the main stream.
“compassionate conservatism.” As opposed to Newt’s “Asshole conservatism.” For all the right’s hatred of him because of climate change, Gore ran as and is a moderate.
254 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:59:06pm |
re: #243 wozzablog
The ones the right wing media are pushing, ofcourse, which is “tone”.
Ah, not hating liberals enough. Gotcha.
255 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 8:59:34pm |
re: #250 Dark_Falcon
Well, the center’s placement varies from country to country and from issue to issue.
The “defined” American Center is skewed right. On pretty much all issues.
Polling is going the other way - on healthcare the majority favoured Obamas initial more far reaching plan, economincally more people favour a “balanced” tax raising/spending cuts approach, abortions and gay marriage are both experiencing massive shifts in the definition of “center”.
But even with these shifts from the current rightwards tint the center in America is still well removed from what the rest of the western world defines as right/center/left.
256 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:00:24pm |
re: #246 funky chicken
Obama was more liberal than Hillary in the primaries.
On what? Hillary was for single payer Obama wasn’t. Obama ran on escalating the Afghanistan war. Obama was seen as more liberal than Hillary because he was always against to war in Iraq. In his gut he may be, but the main divide between Obama and Hillary was the new vs. the the old. They weren’t that different on policy and on some Hillary was to the left of Obama, like health care.
257 | The Ghost of a Flea Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:00:40pm |
re: #221 moderatelyradicalliberal
I think the third Mrs. Gingrich better pull a Jolie and adopt an adorable African orphan/human shield because American women tend to hate cheating husbands and mistresses equally. As of today, she’s got nothing else going to redeem her.
She looks like a Skeksis from the The Dark Crystal. I don’t mean that in the “she ugly” sense, strictly: every picture she looks kind of birdlike and predatory. Like she perches in trees and occasionally swoops down to snatch small pets, eats their insides, then impales the remains on branches like a shrike.
258 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:01:26pm |
re: #252 Petero1818
That is it. It is the fact that he is weak. He sounds weak. Don’t get me wrong. I think he is smart, likeable, and a guy you want in the room when decisions are being made. I do not think he is a leader, a motivator, a President. Rather, he is a diplomat. Someone who can read a situation well, smooth over a problem, build consensus when the parties feel it is in their interests. As I said earlier. I think he is a VP. Not Pres.
I respectfully disagree.
I see in him a nice guy folkysness that is serving Obama very well, i also sense that you don’t get to be ambassador to China by being a pussy cat and rolling over when in a room with the Chinese Govt.
259 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:03:40pm |
re: #256 moderatelyradicalliberal
On what? Hillary was for single payer Obama wasn’t. Obama ran on escalating the Afghanistan war. Obama was seen as more liberal than Hillary because he was always against to war in Iraq. In his gut he may be, but the main divide between Obama and Hillary was the new vs. the the old. They weren’t that different on policy and on some Hillary was to the left of Obama, like health care.
Both Obama and Clinton *wanted* single payer but knew in 2008 it wasn’t going to happen. Hilary did not run on single payer in 2008, she ran on “higher subsidies”.
260 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:03:47pm |
re: #258 wozzablog
I respectfully disagree.
I see in him a nice guy folkysness that is serving Obama very well, i also sense that you don’t get to be ambassador to China by being a pussy cat and rolling over when in a room with the Chinese Govt.
I certainly did not intend to portray him as a pussy cat and getting rolled over. Quite the contrary. Diplomats, particularly in a post as important as his, are master negotiators and tacticians. I see those as different skills than those required to be elected President.
261 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:05:14pm |
re: #260 Petero1818
I certainly did not intend to portray him as a pussy cat and getting rolled over. Quite the contrary. Diplomats, particularly in a post as important as his, are master negotiators and tacticians. I see those as different skills than those required to be elected President.
You never know who is cut out for it until they get into office - not many people (inclding the COnservatives here) thought that Obama would have the balls to overthrow Gaddafi, or give kill orders on the pirates….(and on and on)
262 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:05:16pm |
re: #254 Renaissance_Man
Ah, not hating liberals enough. Gotcha.
That’s actually a part of Romney’s problem. It’s obvious he doesn’t have the same fears and resentments that the base of the GOP does. He’s the embodiment of the corporate wing of the GOP. He wants low taxes and deregulation, but in his heart he isn’t concerned with the gays, the blacks, the Muslims, and the Mexicans. He’s also probably is pro-choice.
263 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:07:33pm |
re: #259 wozzablog
Both Obama and Clinton *wanted* single payer but knew in 2008 it wasn’t going to happen. Hilary did not run on single payer in 2008, she ran on “higher subsidies”.
[Link: www.nytimes.com…]
I stand corrected. I suppose my larger point is that Obama being seen as more liberal than Clinton was more about him being young and new than anything he actually said or campaigned on.
264 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:08:55pm |
re: #261 wozzablog
You never know who is cut out for it until they get into office - not many people (inclding the COnservatives here) thought that Obama would have the balls to overthrow Gaddafi, or give kill orders on the pirates…(and on and on)
Interesting thing I remember from my first year of history class in college. Woodrow Wilson when he was elected in 1912 had a very ambitious domestic plan but that got sidetracked by WWI. Honestly, as a relatively hawkish liberal, Obama’s impressed me. I didn’t think he’d be a wuss like many thought but his actions with Bin Laden especially impressed me and his demeanor throughout the whole process. He earned no drama Obama.
265 | jvic Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:09:11pm |
re: #252 Petero1818
That is it. It is the fact that he is weak. He sounds weak. Don’t get me wrong. I think he is smart, likeable, and a guy you want in the room when decisions are being made. I do not think he is a leader, a motivator, a President. Rather, he is a diplomat. Someone who can read a situation well, smooth over a problem, build consensus when the parties feel it is in their interests. As I said earlier. I think he is a VP. Not Pres.
IMO there’s a resemblance between some images of Carter and Huntsman. With all due respect to wozzablog #258, the resemblance may be as unfair to Huntsman as the “attacked by a rabbit” report was to Carter, but there it is.
266 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:09:18pm |
re: #261 wozzablog
You never know who is cut out for it until they get into office - not many people (inclding the COnservatives here) thought that Obama would have the balls to overthrow Gaddafi, or give kill orders on the pirates…(and on and on)
I will agree you never really know. Though sometimes a candidates political history can hint at it. I will say that IMHO Obama has been stronger internationally that he has domestically. I think he let his own party run around on him and would have like to see him crack the party whip a little more on Pelosi and Reid. But I fully understand that not everyone shares that opinion.
267 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:10:21pm |
re: #263 moderatelyradicalliberal
I stand corrected. I suppose my larger point is that Obama being seen as more liberal than Clinton was more about him being young and new than anything he actually said or campaigned on.
Oh, lord goodness, yes. That’s the ballgame right there.
It was always “perception”. Obama was more centrist than Hilary, Hilary being I think more populist.
How “left wing” Hilary can be portrayed as being legitimately though I do not know, *cough Goldwater cough*
268 | Renaissance_Man Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:10:38pm |
re: #266 Petero1818
I will agree you never really know. Though sometimes a candidates political history can hint at it. I will say that IMHO Obama has been stronger internationally that he has domestically. I think he let his own party run around on him and would have like to see him crack the party whip a little more on Pelosi and Reid. But I fully understand that not everyone shares that opinion.
Totally true that. He’s been unforgivably weak on far too many important issues. The man was given a historic mandate and let it go with a whimper.
269 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:12:03pm |
Hillary’s populism explains why my very blue collar Reagan without actually voting for Reagan Democrat grandparents were attracted to her. And I hate saying it but race was a factor there too.
270 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:12:55pm |
re: #268 Renaissance_Man
Totally true that. He’s been unforgivably weak on far too many important issues. The man was given a historic mandate and let it go with a whimper.
ZOMG NO ONE CAN CRITICIZES OBAMA!!eleventy
271 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:17:20pm |
re: #266 Petero1818
I will agree you never really know. Though sometimes a candidates political history can hint at it. I will say that IMHO Obama has been stronger internationally that he has domestically. I think he let his own party run around on him and would have like to see him crack the party whip a little more on Pelosi and Reid. But I fully understand that not everyone shares that opinion.
Crack the whip? On Democrats!?!? LOL! You must think Democrats are an organized party. We are no such thing. Any Democrat who wants to be president has to fight everybody: Republicans and Democrats constantly. If you want someone who can crack the whip on Democrats find a cat herder.
272 | aagcobb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:17:36pm |
re: #213 Petero1818
How bad does the economy have to be for Obama to lose to someone in this lot?
I sure as Hell hope we don’t have to find out.
273 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:18:16pm |
re: #264 HappyWarrior
Interesting thing I remember from my first year of history class in college. Woodrow Wilson when he was elected in 1912 had a very ambitious domestic plan but that got sidetracked by WWI. Honestly, as a relatively hawkish liberal, Obama’s impressed me. I didn’t think he’d be a wuss like many thought but his actions with Bin Laden especially impressed me and his demeanor throughout the whole process. He earned no drama Obama.
I do agree. Honestly, but - I do see whats gone wrong with the Obama presidency thusly -
the Bully pulpit only gets you so far. When the Congress is almost entirely dysfunctional there is only so much that can be achieved. It’s an epochal moment in the History of Congress where they must decide to make rules changes. Majorities were there for most if not all Obama ideas - but not to break the record number of phillibusters.
On healthcare Obama came out several times publically and said “get a fuckin’ move on…” he got a bump, the policy got a bump - and still nothing moved in Congress.
When a President gets stuck domestically all they can do - all they have the power to do is act internationally. The international actions will save what could have been a bad legacy on the domestic front.
274 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:19:44pm |
re: #52 HappyWarrior
John C. Calhoun’s ghost just got its wings.
He told his friends that he purposed washing his hands utterly of public life and political affairs; that he had now been to all intents and purposes a public servant from the age of thirteen to that of threescore and ten … that he had lived his whole life in plain sight of the public and the people, hiding nothing, simulating nothing, confessing nothing, extenuating nothing and regretting nothing — except that he could never get a chance to shoot Clay or hang Calhoun.
275 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:20:12pm |
276 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:21:12pm |
re: #240 wozzablog
Obama was better known than a lot of people gave him credit for being before he announced his pursuit of the presidency.
Long term state senator, key note speaker at the party convention, well publicised run for Senate seat in Illinois.
The base - those turned on by Democratic politics knew a lot about Obama before he announced on the steps in Springfield.Huntsman doesn’t have that - and he doesn’t share the reflexive nationalistic populism of the GOP base. Utah is not a hot bed of interest for GOP local watchers natrionwide (see Mormonism).
State Governor sure, but in Utah.
Obama was a rising star for a long time — the NYT ran a profile on him in 1993 when he was elected president of the Harvard Law Review. He had mentors in the Illinois legislature who spent 3 evenings a week, every week, schooling him, and made sure his name was listed near the top of the sponsor list on legislation they knew would pass by a wide margin and be broadly popular. Oprah gave him media lessons before he decided whether to run for the Senate.
John Kerry wasn’t pulling names randomly out of a hat when he asked him to deliver that keynote speech at the ‘04 convention — and after that speech, his book got rereleased and the liberal netroots swarmed him on his book tour begging him to run in 08.
277 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:21:56pm |
re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist
He told his friends that he purposed washing his hands utterly of public life and political affairs; that he had now been to all intents and purposes a public servant from the age of thirteen to that of threescore and ten … that he had lived his whole life in plain sight of the public and the people, hiding nothing, simulating nothing, confessing nothing, extenuating nothing and regretting nothing — except that he could never get a chance to shoot Clay or hang Calhoun.
What are best presidential death bed regrets, Alex.
278 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:23:12pm |
re: #273 wozzablog
I do agree. Honestly, but - I do see whats gone wrong with the Obama presidency thusly -
the Bully pulpit only gets you so far. When the Congress is almost entirely dysfunctional there is only so much that can be achieved. It’s an epochal moment in the History of Congress where they must decide to make rules changes. Majorities were there for most if not all Obama ideas - but not to break the record number of phillibusters.
On healthcare Obama came out several times publically and said “get a fuckin’ move on…” he got a bump, the policy got a bump - and still nothing moved in Congress.When a President gets stuck domestically all they can do - all they have the power to do is act internationally. The international actions will save what could have been a bad legacy on the domestic front.
Yeah, he’s been a little disappointing on domestics. Health care wasn’t what I wanted it but passing it was a feat.
279 | palomino Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:23:31pm |
re: #268 Renaissance_Man
Totally true that. He’s been unforgivably weak on far too many important issues. The man was given a historic mandate and let it go with a whimper.
Obama’s not the type to bust heads and arm twist leglislators. It’s the only way he could have gotten more of his agenda enacted…too many conservadems who had to be prodded, bribed, whatever to get their votes. Back in the day LBJ would just threaten to close down a military base in a congress person’s district or state. But that’s never been Obama’s style, for better or worse.
Obama also faced unprecedented obstructionism from the gop. It’s a minor miracle he got any of his agenda passed.
Maybe Hillary could have done a better job of that since she seems to have the personality and instincts of a political brawler. The one and only thing I’ve ever heard Sarah Palin say about Obama that made sense was that he’s the “professor in chief.” To her that’s a problem because Obama relies too much on book learnin’ and other types of elitism, like science and reason. To me it’s been a problem because Obama occasionally seems detached and just isn’t very forceful.
280 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:23:38pm |
re: #273 wozzablog
I do agree. Honestly, but - I do see whats gone wrong with the Obama presidency thusly -
the Bully pulpit only gets you so far. When the Congress is almost entirely dysfunctional there is only so much that can be achieved. It’s an epochal moment in the History of Congress where they must decide to make rules changes. Majorities were there for most if not all Obama ideas - but not to break the record number of phillibusters.
On healthcare Obama came out several times publically and said “get a fuckin’ move on…” he got a bump, the policy got a bump - and still nothing moved in Congress.When a President gets stuck domestically all they can do - all they have the power to do is act internationally. The international actions will save what could have been a bad legacy on the domestic front.
I guess therefore the question is, would another President have been able to ram those things through? I don’t know the answer, but I suppose that I hope for one who could.
281 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:23:42pm |
re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist
He told his friends that he purposed washing his hands utterly of public life and political affairs; that he had now been to all intents and purposes a public servant from the age of thirteen to that of threescore and ten … that he had lived his whole life in plain sight of the public and the people, hiding nothing, simulating nothing, confessing nothing, extenuating nothing and regretting nothing — except that he could never get a chance to shoot Clay or hang Calhoun.
Thirteen?
Is this JQA?
282 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:23:44pm |
re: #276 sagehen
Obama was a rising star for a long time — the NYT ran a profile on him in 1993 when he was elected president of the Harvard Law Review. He had mentors in the Illinois legislature who spent 3 evenings a week, every week, schooling him, and made sure his name was listed near the top of the sponsor list on legislation they knew would pass by a wide margin and be broadly popular. Oprah gave him media lessons before he decided whether to run for the Senate.
John Kerry wasn’t pulling names randomly out of a hat when he asked him to deliver that keynote speech at the ‘04 convention — and after that speech, his book got rereleased and the liberal netroots swarmed him on his book tour begging him to run in 08.
Bingo. His star was on the rise in the UK in the build up to the 2004 COnvention speech - it got a lot of hype here. Which is why I have always had no time for ANYONE who has said the guy was an unknown. We knew about him in the U freakin K in 2004.
283 | jvic Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:24:19pm |
re: #274 SanFranciscoZionist
He told his friends that he purposed washing his hands utterly of public life and political affairs; that he had now been to all intents and purposes a public servant from the age of thirteen to that of threescore and ten … that he had lived his whole life in plain sight of the public and the people, hiding nothing, simulating nothing, confessing nothing, extenuating nothing and regretting nothing — except that he could never get a chance to shoot Clay or hang Calhoun.
For some time I’ve wanted a link to that Andrew Jackson anecdote. If you’d be so kind, SFZ…
284 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:25:58pm |
Mkay. I should have known that JQA wasn’t going to be shooting anybody.
To be honest, Jackson isn’t my favorite president. I think it was the Indian thing.
285 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:26:26pm |
re: #260 Petero1818
I certainly did not intend to portray him as a pussy cat and getting rolled over. Quite the contrary. Diplomats, particularly in a post as important as his, are master negotiators and tacticians. I see those as different skills than those required to be elected President.
Sadly, the skill set required to be elected President has very little overlap with the skill set required to be a good President.
286 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:26:53pm |
re: #281 EmmmieG
Thirteen?
Is this JQA?
I guess Jackson thought his experience as a boy soldier in the revolution qualified as that.
Image: andrew-jackson-revolution.jpg
287 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:27:08pm |
re: #278 HappyWarrior
Yeah, he’s been a little disappointing on domestics. Health care wasn’t what I wanted it but passing it was a feat.
Healthcare that passed both houses wasn’t what Obama wanted to be honest. What passed was the best they could get through GOP phillibuster and the BlueDogs who’s been bankrolled by the insurance companies for the last decade.
The initial healthcare plan - drawn up by him and Tom Daschle was pretty solid. Unfortunately Dem bluedogs in the senate were more respectful of the Healthcare Companies that paid to keep their offices warm than they did teh POTUS
288 | aagcobb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:27:10pm |
re: #262 moderatelyradicalliberal
That’s actually a part of Romney’s problem. It’s obvious he doesn’t have the same fears and resentments that the base of the GOP does. He’s the embodiment of the corporate wing of the GOP. He wants low taxes and deregulation, but in his heart he isn’t concerned with the gays, the blacks, the Muslims, and the Mexicans. He’s also probably is pro-choice.
I’m not so sure about that.
289 | palomino Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:28:37pm |
re: #280 Petero1818
I guess therefore the question is, would another President have been able to ram those things through? I don’t know the answer, but I suppose that I hope for one who could.
Hillary, possibly, and only because she knows where all the bodies are buried in DC, so to speak. She can also be more of an attack dog, which might have served her well. Having said that, she still might not have gotten anymore done than Obama, so entrenched is the partisan gridlock and the Dems’ disorganization.
290 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:28:40pm |
re: #284 EmmmieG
Mkay. I should have known that JQA wasn’t going to be shooting anybody.
To be honest, Jackson isn’t my favorite president. I think it was the Indian thing.
It would be so weird for me if I were in 1824. I’m a rare guy who likes both. My ideas are more Adamsian though. Internal improvements(man was way ahead of his time), staunch abolitionist but there are many things about Jackson the Indian issue aside that make me say damnit Andy I like you.
291 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:29:06pm |
re: #286 HappyWarrior
I guess Jackson thought his experience as a boy soldier in the revolution qualified as that.
Image: andrew-jackson-revolution.jpg
Like I said, I’ve kind of ignored Jackson, other than to find out what was going on with his wife.
292 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:29:16pm |
re: #280 Petero1818
I guess therefore the question is, would another President have been able to ram those things through? I don’t know the answer, but I suppose that I hope for one who could.
The Republicans would have been even more intransigent against Hilary. I don’t know how that would have been possible, but theres no way i think Hilary gets what Obama managed to.
293 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:31:22pm |
re: #281 EmmmieG
Thirteen?
Is this JQA?
Andrew Jackson. He joined a local militia during the Revolutionary War, when he was thirteen. Ran errands and messages, I think.
294 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:32:08pm |
re: #283 jvic
For some time I’ve wanted a link to that Andrew Jackson anecdote. If you’d be so kind, SFZ…
295 | aagcobb Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:32:34pm |
re: #289 palomino
Hillary, possibly, and only because she knows where all the bodies are buried in DC, so to speak. She can also be more of an attack dog, which might have served her well. Having said that, she still might not have gotten anymore done than Obama, so entrenched is the partisan gridlock and the Dems’ disorganization.
If you remember history, Hillarycare sank without a trace during Clinton’s first term.
296 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:33:08pm |
re: #293 SanFranciscoZionist
Andrew Jackson. He joined a local militia during the Revolutionary War, when he was thirteen. Ran errands and messages, I think.
JQA was journeying around with his father at that age. He went to Russia, I believe, with a US diplomat as a teen.
297 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:33:57pm |
re: #291 EmmmieG
Like I said, I’ve kind of ignored Jackson, other than to find out what was going on with his wife.
Our first self made president. Orphaned as a teen. He’s got an interesting life. I certainly don’t condone everything he did or stood for but I got a certain grudging admiration for him. Hamilton too for similiar reasons. Hamilton was a bastard both ways but as much as I love Jefferson we live in Hamilton’s vision for America economically. As for JQA- probably one of the best diplomats ever.
298 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:34:10pm |
re: #284 EmmmieG
Mkay. I should have known that JQA wasn’t going to be shooting anybody.
To be honest, Jackson isn’t my favorite president. I think it was the Indian thing.
He was a deplorable person in many ways. The Indian thing remains a national disgrace. But there’s a wit and humor to Jackson, and a total lack of bullshit, that still appeals these many many years later. Complicated person.
299 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:35:11pm |
re: #298 SanFranciscoZionist
He was a deplorable person in many ways. The Indian thing remains a national disgrace. But there’s a wit and humor to Jackson, and a total lack of bullshit, that still appeals these many many years later. Complicated person.
About how many great men and women can we say that?
300 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:35:22pm |
re: #296 EmmmieG
JQA was journeying around with his father at that age. He went to Russia, I believe, with a US diplomat as a teen.
Yes.
Not an easy life, in many ways. But the Adamses didn’t believe in whining.
301 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:35:35pm |
re: #295 aagcobb
If you remember history, Hillarycare sank without a trace during Clinton’s first term.
Again, I don’t know if she could have got it done or not. But comparing Hillary the First Lady with Hillary after serving in the senate for a while is like comparing princess diana on her wedding day to Queen Elizabeth on her Golden Jubilee.
302 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:36:26pm |
re: #301 Petero1818
Again, I don’t know if she could have got it done or not. But comparing Hillary the First Lady with Hillary after serving in the senate for a while is like comparing princess diana on her wedding day to Queen Elizabeth on her Golden Jubilee.
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.
How about Princess Diana at 20 with Princess Diana at 32?
303 | palomino Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:37:04pm |
re: #295 aagcobb
If you remember history, Hillarycare sank without a trace during Clinton’s first term.
And if you remember history, Hillary was about 43 at the time, inexperienced and not the president.
Twenty years can make a big difference. Think Hillary could have been a successful Sec. of State 20 years ago? She learned a lot and was highly thought of in the Senate. Gridlock probably would have killed Pres. Hillary’s agenda, as it did Obama’s, not some personal flaw on her part.
304 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:37:26pm |
re: #302 EmmmieG
I think that’s a bit of an overstatement.
How about Princess Diana at 20 with Princess Diana at 32?
touche
305 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:37:28pm |
re: #299 EmmmieG
About how many great men and women can say that?
And now you know why I love history and English. History has all the real life drama of literature and masterful figures who you can both admire and despise at the same time. I’ve had this idea for some time to try to make the life of President Nixon in to a Shakespearean tragedy.
306 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:38:00pm |
re: #301 Petero1818
Again, I don’t know if she could have got it done or not. But comparing Hillary the First Lady with Hillary after serving in the senate for a while is like comparing princess diana on her wedding day to Queen Elizabeth on her Golden Jubilee.
That wouldn’t have mattered to the people who remember “Hilarycare”, namely Republicans on the Hill and in the media. They hated her guts to begin with - viscerally - Obama came in with a clean slate and had to earn the vitriol heaped upon him freshly. It was pre-packaged and ready to go with Hilary.
307 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:39:38pm |
re: #304 Petero1818
touche
It’s just that Princess Diana and the Queen are two very different women who experienced very different things.
Better to compare one woman with herself earlier and later.
308 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:39:52pm |
re: #305 HappyWarrior
And now you know why I love history and English. History has all the real life drama of literature and masterful figures who you can both admire and despise at the same time. I’ve had this idea for some time to try to make the life of President Nixon in to a Shakespearean tragedy.
MacBeth.
309 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:40:03pm |
310 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:40:47pm |
re: #306 wozzablog
That wouldn’t have mattered to the people who remember “Hilarycare”, namely Republicans on the Hill and in the media. They hated her guts to begin with - viscerally - Obama came in with a clean slate and had to earn the vitriol. It was pre-packaged with Hilary.
Its not about Vitriol. It is about power. Its like war and peace. you don’t make peace with your friends, you make it with your enemies. Same thing with tough legislation. you don’t pass it with your peers all clapping along side you, you ram it down the throats of your adversaries and power it through using whatever weapons you possess.
311 | jvic Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:40:50pm |
re: #298 SanFranciscoZionist
He was a deplorable person in many ways. The Indian thing remains a national disgrace. But there’s a wit and humor to Jackson, and a total lack of bullshit, that still appeals these many many years later. Complicated person.
And, iirc, a slaveowner who did not provide for a single manumission after his death.
Nevertheless, IMHO, by quashing Calhoun and South Carolina, Jackson delayed the showdown over secession long enough for the North to acquire a decisive economic advantage.
Had there arisen a Southern slave state expansive toward Latin America, what the USA stands for in history would have been very different indeed.
312 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:41:59pm |
That a good man can do horrible things
Or that a bad man is equally capable of doing good
But you ask yourself, what is good and what is bad
313 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:42:14pm |
re: #309 EmmmieG
Heh. Lady MacBeth.
Veering the subject away—my English teacher junior year showed us Kurosawa’s “Throne of Blood” when we read MacBeth.
She said we’d never forget the scene where they shoot him full of arrows, but it’s the scene with the Lady Macbeth character washing her hands that’s stayed with me. Seated in kimono, perfectly straight-backed and formally positioned, washing her hands over and over again, and crying.
314 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:42:48pm |
re: #310 Petero1818
Its not about Vitriol. It is about power. Its like war and peace. you don’t make peace with your friends, you make it with your enemies. Same thing with tough legislation. you don’t pass it with your peers all clapping along side you, you ram it down the throats of your adversaries and power it through using whatever weapons you possess.
It is entirely about vitriol at the moment.
Name another time when a Representative who shouts “you lie” at a Resident during a joint session gets rewarded richly?.
The vitriol is one way, but it makes people less than rational.
315 | palomino Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:43:04pm |
re: #306 wozzablog
That wouldn’t have mattered to the people who remember “Hilarycare”, namely Republicans on the Hill and in the media. They hated her guts to begin with - viscerally - Obama came in with a clean slate and had to earn the vitriol heaped upon him freshly. It was pre-packaged and ready to go with Hilary.
The Hillarycare parallels are a bit misleading, I think. One reason it failed was that it was actually a more “radical left wing” plan than Obamacare, which is in truth a Republican plan courtesy of people like Dole, Gingrich and Romney. All of which makes the gop opposition to it seem even more mindlessly anti-Obama partisanship.
Another reason Hillarycare failed was that Bill put Hillary in charge of pushing the plan. This made a lot of Dems and Repubs resentful, as in “who the hell is this lady lecturing us?” She’s obviously gained in stature since then.
316 | moderatelyradicalliberal Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:44:58pm |
re: #292 wozzablog
The Republicans would have been even more intransigent against Hilary. I don’t know how that would have been possible, but theres no way i think Hilary gets what Obama managed to.
The Clintons, unlike Obama could not figure out a way to get any kind of health care reform past and they impeached Bill. I think we must accept that the GOP insanity exists independently of who the Democrat living in White House is.
317 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:45:17pm |
re: #309 EmmmieG
Heh. Lady MacBeth.
Excellent play. And Shakespeare was a big reason why i became an English minor in the first place. Him, James Joyce, W.B Yeats, and Frank McCourt. Took two Shakespeare courses at the same time in Spring 2010. A lot of work since unlike most lit I have to read Shakespeare aloud and I accidentally deleted a whole essay on the evolution of the word “mischief” which was insane but thankfully the professor understood and gave me an extension with the caveat that I’d lose ten points automatically. That was fine.
318 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:45:22pm |
re: #306 wozzablog
That wouldn’t have mattered to the people who remember “Hilarycare”, namely Republicans on the Hill and in the media. They hated her guts to begin with - viscerally - Obama came in with a clean slate and had to earn the vitriol. It was pre-packaged with Hilary.
“Why doesn’t Hillary wear miniskirts?
Her balls hang out.”
That was the attitude toward her as First Lady.
As SoS, that is an advantage, no? I think she has done a tremendous job at State. Her recent trip to Europe seems to have put some spine into saving the Euro. If that currency collapsed, we would see a 1930’s depression descend on the western world. It would be disastrous for our economy.
319 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:45:52pm |
re: #305 HappyWarrior
And now you know why I love history and English. History has all the real life drama of literature and masterful figures who you can both admire and despise at the same time. I’ve had this idea for some time to try to make the life of President Nixon in to a Shakespearean tragedy.
Nixon in China is already an opera. Got mixed reviews, but it’s been staged at the Metropolitan, in Colorado, in Houston, and in Canada and Europe.
320 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:46:22pm |
re: #315 palomino
The Hillarycare parallels are a bit misleading, I think. One reason it failed was that it was actually a more “radical left wing” plan than Obamacare, which is in truth a Republican plan courtesy of people like Dole, Gingrich and Romney. All of which makes the gop opposition to it seem even more mindlessly anti-Obama partisanship.
Another reason Hillarycare failed was that Bill put Hillary in charge of pushing the plan. This made a lot of Dems and Repubs resentful, as in “who the hell is this lady lecturing us?” She’s obviously gained in stature since then.
All I’m saying is she would have had an even worse time. It no longer matters what Hilarycare contained - but that the GOP would have said over and over to the Insurance companies, to business owners to anyone who would listen - that Hilary is doing it again.
Sec Of State being overseas is a good position for her - there is still very very little time or respect for her among people on the right even after stepping out of Bills shadow.
322 | Petero1818 Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:46:44pm |
re: #314 wozzablog
It is entirely about vitriol at the moment.
Name another time when a Representative who shouts “you lie” at a Resident during a joint session gets rewarded richly?.
The vitriol is one way, but it makes people less than rational.
I think you misunderstand me. I am not denying the vitriol. I am saying that tough legislation gets passed with or without it. It is about how you wield power to push things through. They impeached Clinton while he governed!
323 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:46:57pm |
re: #321 HappyWarrior
By the way my 312 is from a poem I wrote
There’s a time where the ideal is that matters
A time for thinking in black and white
Where flaws do not exist
We realize as we age
That we’re all too human
Imperfections aye with bad in us
But also good in us
That a good man can do horrible things
Or that a bad man is equally capable of doing good
But you ask yourself, what is good and what is bad
Truth is a worthy goal, yes
But find yourself thinking about what is truth
We’re ultimately all too human
Our vices to be admired
And our virtues to be disdained
Like a rainy day in May
Heroes don’t look so heroic no more
But yet we relate to them more than ever
For they like us
Are all too human
.
324 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:47:21pm |
326 | prairiefire Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:48:50pm |
re: #318 austin_blue
As SoS, that is an advantage, no? I think she has done a tremendous job at State. Her recent trip to Europe seems to have put some spine into saving the Euro. If that currency collapsed, we would see a 1930’s depression descend on the western world. It would be disastrous for our economy.
I was very proud of her recent trip to Burma and meeting with Suu Kyi. Democratic women, getting things done.bbc.co.uk
327 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:50:38pm |
re: #326 prairiefire
I was very proud of her recent trip to Burma and meeting with Suu Kyi. Democratic women, getting things done.[Link: www.bbc.co.uk…]
I saw a documentary on underground journalists in Burma. Brave souls all and Suu Kyi too. She’s one of those ripples of hope Bobby Kennedy talked about.
328 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:50:58pm |
re: #316 moderatelyradicalliberal
The Clintons, unlike Obama could not figure out a way to get any kind of health care reform past and they impeached Bill. I think we must accept that the GOP insanity exists independently of who the Democrat living in White House is.
Bill had to contend with a GOP House and Senate for most of his two terms.
It’s been passed, and people are grateful, the 90’s were a different time with a different dynamic.
329 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:54:03pm |
re: #319 sagehen
Nixon in China is already an opera. Got mixed reviews, but it’s been staged at the Metropolitan, in Colorado, in Houston, and in Canada and Europe.
Yeah I’ve heard about that and Frost/Nixon is also a play but a play about the life of Nixon would be awesome. It’s ripe really. Self made guy reaches highest office in land after many failures and personal tragedy too. I gained some sympathy for Nixon reading his memoirs and him talking about the sorrow he felt losing two brothers to TB.
330 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:54:36pm |
re: #311 jvic
And, iirc, a slaveowner who did not provide for a single manumission after his death.
Nevertheless, IMHO, by quashing Calhoun and South Carolina, Jackson delayed the showdown over secession long enough for the North to acquire a decisive economic advantage.
Had there arisen a Southern slave state expansive toward Latin America, what the USA stands for in history would have been very different indeed.
I’d agree with that last. There were several earlier points where the American Civil War could have erupted, and was good that it took as long as it did fore the final crisis to occur. For had the war come sooner, say as a result of the Nullification Crisis, the South might well have been able to stand the North off. The explosion of railroads in the US in the 1850’s finally made cross country logistics really doable.
331 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:55:15pm |
re: #322 Petero1818
I think you misunderstand me. I am not denying the vitriol. I am saying that tough legislation gets passed with or without it. It is about how you wield power to push things through. They impeached Clinton while he governed!
Obama has got a lot done, a lot has been watered down and he’s tried to do it in a bi-partisan fashion. Extending the olive branch makes the GOP look extermely selfish as they bat it away.
I can’t comment on the diversity of make up of the Dem caucus back in the 90’s but a bunch of the Senate Des this time around were on the verge of flipping to R or just sat it out. Thats a failure of Senate leadership and of the Dems in the states electing weak senators.
332 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:58:03pm |
re: #329 HappyWarrior
Yeah I’ve heard about that and Frost/Nixon is also a play but a play about the life of Nixon would be awesome. It’s ripe really. Self made guy reaches highest office in land after many failures and personal tragedy too. I gained some sympathy for Nixon reading his memoirs and him talking about the sorrow he felt losing two brothers to TB.
If you believe that the life story of a paranoid, fatally insecure asshole would make riveting drama, Nixon is your guy.
333 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:58:58pm |
I would like at this point to say that I personally like Hilary as a character and a politician - I prefer Obama, but I do like Hilary.
Anything negative coming across is just a result of my analysis of how her involvement and historical perceptions about her in certain situations would break down. I’m not working from my own prejudices, but those of those who will never give her the time of day, let alone piss on her if she were on fire.
334 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:59:40pm |
To add in another factor re: #332 austin_blue
If you believe that the life story of a paranoid, fatally insecure asshole would make riveting drama, Nixon is your guy.
I do. Because you’re not born a paranoid, insecure asshole.
335 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 9:59:45pm |
re: #332 austin_blue
If you believe that the life story of a paranoid, fatally insecure asshole would make riveting drama, Nixon is your guy.
It was a great play in the round, Frosts book is fantastic and the movie was pretty good.
336 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:00:12pm |
re: #332 austin_blue
If you believe that the life story of a paranoid, fatally insecure asshole would make riveting drama, Nixon is your guy.
And the MacBeths were…what?
337 | William Barnett-Lewis Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:01:07pm |
re: #297 HappyWarrior
Our first self made president. Orphaned as a teen. He’s got an interesting life. I certainly don’t condone everything he did or stood for but I got a certain grudging admiration for him. Hamilton too for similiar reasons. Hamilton was a bastard both ways but as much as I love Jefferson we live in Hamilton’s vision for America economically. As for JQA- probably one of the best diplomats ever.
Hamilton was a bastard, yes even literally, but compared to Jackson he was the greatest saint in christian history. Quite seriously, one can make an argument that Jackson was as evil as several other 20th century shit birds just a hundred years too early for real death counts.
The worst fucker in American History remains that rat bastard Arron Burr. If there really was justice in this world, he would have died rather than Hamilton.
338 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:01:20pm |
re: #316 moderatelyradicalliberal
The Clintons, unlike Obama could not figure out a way to get any kind of health care reform past and they impeached Bill. I think we must accept that the GOP insanity exists independently of who the Democrat living in White House is.
Remember, Hillarycare died while the Democrats still had both house of Congress. But it was part and parcel of the Democrat’s attempt to get a lot of things passed in Clinton’s first two years. That did indeed happen, but Hillary’s health care plan proved a bridge too far for many legislators, and its public support was badly eroded.
Though Dems having done that much also helped the GOP boot them out of Congress. For the first time since the 1960’s, the Dems controlled the White House, both houses of Congress and were organized enough to move swiftly*. But that movement worried the voters, who do not really like unified government.
*: Though the Democrats controlled Congress under Jimmy Carter. Carter was unable to deal with Congress effectively.
339 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:01:20pm |
340 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:01:35pm |
re: #335 wozzablog
It was a great play in the round, Frosts book is fantastic and the movie was pretty good.
How was STacy Keach as Nixon? I only really know him as Ken Titus from Titus and a white supremacist in American History X.
341 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:02:02pm |
re: #336 EmmmieG
And the MacBeths were…what?
Well, yeah, but The Scottish Play has been done. Please don’t use the “M” word.
342 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:03:12pm |
re: #340 HappyWarrior
How was STacy Keach as Nixon? I only really know him as Ken Titus from Titus and a white supremacist in American History X.
I saw it in the UK/
343 | Dark_Falcon Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:03:35pm |
re: #337 wlewisiii
Hamilton was a bastard, yes even literally, but compared to Jackson he was the greatest saint in christian history. Quite seriously, one can make an argument that Jackson was as evil as several other 20th century shit birds just a hundred years too early for real death counts.
The worst fucker in American History remains that rat bastard Arron Burr. If there really was justice in this world, he would have died rather than Hamilton.
Yes, but Hamilton did not want to be a killer. So he refused to fire for effect. That happened sometimes in duals.
344 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:04:01pm |
re: #337 wlewisiii
Hamilton was a bastard, yes even literally, but compared to Jackson he was the greatest saint in christian history. Quite seriously, one can make an argument that Jackson was as evil as several other 20th century shit birds just a hundred years too early for real death counts.
The worst fucker in American History remains that rat bastard Arron Burr. If there really was justice in this world, he would have died rather than Hamilton.
I read Gore Vidal’s fictional biography of Burr my first year of college. It was that or a Washington biography(Indispensable Man) Went with Burr because I knew little about him and I agree. People throw traitor around alot well Burr likely was one.
345 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:05:11pm |
re: #343 Dark_Falcon
Yes, but Hamilton did not want to be a killer. So he refused to fire for effect. That happened sometimes in duals.
Most noble thing I recall about Hamilton is declining participation in a high federalist secessionist movement that was formed after the Louisiana Purchase.
346 | Wozza Matter? Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:06:00pm |
G’night all.
(and yes i’ve just changed my avatar. the un-Obamaised version of my old old pic)
347 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:06:38pm |
re: #343 Dark_Falcon
Yes, but Hamilton did not want to be a killer. So he refused to fire for effect. That happened sometimes in duals.
My favorite.
348 | HappyWarrior Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:09:43pm |
re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist
[Video]My favorite.
This would be great for a history class. Short, sweet, and informative.
349 | Amory Blaine Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:10:33pm |
Went shopping for a mattress today with the wife. Almost makes me wish I had to watch the debate instead. Almost..;)
350 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:10:43pm |
re: #343 Dark_Falcon
Yes, but Hamilton did not want to be a killer. So he refused to fire for effect. That happened sometimes in duals.
One thing most people don’t know or don’t take into account about that duel is that Hamilton’s oldest son had been killed in a duel defending his father’s honor.
I’ve often wondered about that. What effect it had.
351 | austin_blue Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:11:22pm |
I’m for the rack. Sweet scaly Lizard dreams to you all.
352 | Amory Blaine Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:11:52pm |
I don’t think we have to worry about todays politicians dueling over honor.
353 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:13:02pm |
Now, this is new to me. Kind of cool.
354 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:13:13pm |
re: #333 wozzablog
I would like at this point to say that I personally like Hilary as a character and a politician - I prefer Obama, but I do like Hilary.
Anything negative coming across is just a result of my analysis of how her involvement and historical perceptions about her in certain situations would break down. I’m not working from my own prejudices, but those of those who will never give her the time of day, let alone piss on her if she were on fire.
I like Hillary a lot more now than I did in 2008 — I would not have predicted she’d be as good at her job as she is.
But I’m still really glad she’s not President — even if her legislative agenda were identical to Obama’s, I couldn’t stand the drama if her family were the ones in the fishbowl.
355 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:13:17pm |
re: #352 Amory Blaine
I don’t think we have to worry about todays politicians dueling over honor.
No.
356 | bratwurst Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:14:32pm |
re: #352 Amory Blaine
I don’t think we have to worry about todays politicians dueling over honor.
They would need to HAVE some honor first. ;)
357 | sagehen Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:24:05pm |
re: #347 SanFranciscoZionist
[Video]My favorite.
So Hamilton’s 2nd, Jesse Benton… should I presume he’s the ancestor of eventual Senator Thomas Hart Benton, whose daughter Jesse married John C Fremont?
358 | prairiefire Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:28:47pm |
re: #353 SanFranciscoZionist
Now, this is new to me. Kind of cool.
[Video]
That’s the “In The Heights” writer. Awesome
359 | SanFranciscoZionist Sat, Dec 3, 2011 10:47:31pm |
re: #357 sagehen
So Hamilton’s 2nd, Jesse Benton… should I presume he’s the ancestor of eventual Senator Thomas Hart Benton, whose daughter Jesse married John C Fremont?
At the Wiki page for said Thomas Hart Benton, Benton was born in Harts Mill, North Carolina, near the present-day town of Hillsborough. His father Jesse Benton, a wealthy lawyer and landowner, died in 1790. His grandfather Samuel Benton [1] (~1720 - 1770) was born in Worcester, England and settled in the Province of North Carolina.
Now, if Jesse died in 1790, he can’t be the same one who seconded a duel in 1804, however, here I find: In June 1813, Jackson served as a second for Billy Carroll in a duel with Jesse Benton, Jr., Thomas’s brother. Both men were severely wounded and the Benton-Jackson friendship came to an abrupt end.
I’d speculate, based on that detail and the dates, that the Jesse from the Burr-Hamilton duel was Thomas’s brother, Jesse Jr.
360 | palomino Sat, Dec 3, 2011 11:25:26pm |
re: #320 wozzablog
All I’m saying is she would have had an even worse time. It no longer matters what Hilarycare contained - but that the GOP would have said over and over to the Insurance companies, to business owners to anyone who would listen - that Hilary is doing it again.
Sec Of State being overseas is a good position for her - there is still very very little time or respect for her among people on the right even after stepping out of Bills shadow.
That’s why I didn’t vote for Hillary in the primaries. I was afraid she would be too divisive as a president, just as much as her husband and Bush Jr. I also didn’t like the sound of Bush, Clinton, Bush, Clinton…seeing as we’re not a monarchy.
But I was wrong and naive to think the country could be at all unified under Obama. He’s turned out to be just as divisive, not really because of anything he’s done but who he is. The reasons I think Hillary might have gotten as much or more done are two: first, she learned a lot about Congress and was effective there in her 8 years as Senator. Second, there would not have been a national freak-out over her birth certificate, religion, skin color, etc. It’s disgusting, unprecedented, and done a lot to poison Obama’s presidency.