Trayvon Martin Autopsy: Knuckle Injury Was Tiny, but Gunshot Was at ‘Intermediate Range’

The so-called “knuckle abrasions:” only one, no more than a quarter-inch in size
Crime • Views: 34,161

More details are emerging on the autopsy results for Trayvon Martin, and earlier reports that his knuckles were skinned (as if from a fight) seem to have been inaccurate. The autopsy reported only a tiny abrasion about a quarter-inch long on his left ring finger.

And possibly even more interesting: the autopsy report says Martin died from a gunshot at “intermediate range.”

Florida teenager Trayvon Martin died from a single gunshot wound to the chest fired from “intermediate range,” according to an autopsy report reviewed Wednesday by NBC News.

The official report, prepared by the medical examiner in Volusia County, Fla., also found that the 17-year-old Martin had one other fresh injurya small abrasion, no more than a quarter-inch  in size –  on his left ring finger below the knuckle.

Separately, a medical report on Martin’s alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martin’s shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp. That report, first reported Tuesday by ABC News, also was reviewed by NBC News.

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544 comments
1 prairiefire  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:40:16pm

What does "intermediate range" mean?

2 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:42:57pm

I wish I knew for certain what they mean by intermediate range, but it sounds like he was out side of powder burn range. If that's correct, there is a huge chunk of why they charged him as they did and why the FBI is looking at things.

3 prairiefire  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:43:31pm

"Examination of the gunshot wound can help determine many factors involved in the shooting, including the distance of the shooter from the victim. Gunshot wounds can be classified based on the range from the muzzle of the gun to the target. These classifications include contact, near-contact, intermediate, and distant wounds."
[Link: www.relentlessdefense.com...]

4 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:44:25pm

re: #1 prairiefire

This site says 8 inches to 3.5 feet:

In forensics there are four types of gunshot wound: Contact wound - The muzzle of the gun was applied to the skin at the time of shooting, Close Range - The muzzle of the gun was 6-8 inches away from the skin at shooting, Intermediate Range - The gun was 8 inches to 3.5 feet away, and Distant - The gun was over 3.4 feet away at the time of shooting. In the case of a fatal shooting it is often debated whether it was murder or suicide. [Link: www.forensic-medecine.info...]

5 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:47:02pm

re: #3 prairiefire

Ah, thanks. That can still be a fair distance away but at least that gives an idea.

6 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:49:11pm

Nothing to do with Trayvon, but a Manhattan Institute Smackdown by Kucinich.

If I had time, I search C-SPAN and watch the entire hearing.

This is lovely.

Dennis Kucinich Sets Dr. David Gratzer Straight A James Pence Video

7 ProGunLiberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:50:00pm

re: #6 ggt

Kucinich is still a damn loon, and I am pleased to see him out.

8 tifosa  Wed, May 16, 2012 6:58:38pm

"intermediate range" Ok, so he saw the gun, it WAS Trayvon making that cry of fear...Yep, 2nd degree murder.

9 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:01:31pm

re: #4 jaunte

This site says 8 inches to 3.5 feet:

Yeah, I googled that earlier too. Still consistent with Zimmerman's story. The prosecution had better have something new but I'm becoming increasingly convinced they don't.

10 Charles Johnson  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:03:34pm

The right wing blogs were all yelling about Trayvon's "bleeding knuckles" this morning.

Turns out there was only one tiny abrasion on one finger. No "bleeding knuckles."

I'd say the defense's argument just got cut in half.

11 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:07:05pm

re: #7 ProGunLiberal

Kucinich is still a damn loon, and I am pleased to see him out.

The Manhattan Institute guy was a total dick. I can sympathize as I've watched these hearings before, but there is bad form to be so disrespectful/talk back etc.

12 ProGunLiberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:09:58pm

re: #11 ggt

Ah, so a collision of crazies?

Sort of like that incident in Germany a week or 2 back with the Salafis and Neo-Nazis bashing each other in Germany. Except less extremist.

13 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:11:10pm

CBS has this:

The court documents also show that prior to the shooting, Zimmerman had received prescriptions for Adderall and Temazepam, which have been shown to cause agitation and mood swings, though in less than 10 percent of consumers.

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

14 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:13:29pm

re: #8 tifosa

"intermediate range" Ok, so he saw the gun, it WAS Trayvon making that cry of fear...Yep, 2nd degree murder.

Don't be so sure. We don't know the sequence of events yet. What we have here is some evidence, that is more likely than not to point in the direction of guilt. It's best not to jump to conclusions, this case has already seen too much that.

15 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:13:31pm

re: #10 Charles Johnson

The right wing blogs were all yelling about Trayvon's "bleeding knuckles" this morning.

Turns out there was only one tiny abrasion on one finger. No "bleeding knuckles."

I'd say the defense's argument just got cut in half.

Perhaps Zimmerman attacked Trayvon's hands with his nose.

16 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:13:52pm

re: #13 jaunte

CBS has this:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

prescription uppers and downers???

17 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:14:38pm

Frank is pretty awesome:

Frank says:

Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible.

18 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:15:40pm

I gotta say, this looks more like a win for the defense than the prosecution from where I'm sitting.

19 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:16:02pm

re: #16 ggt

Sounds uncomfortable:

...you should know that your mental health may change in unexpected ways while you are taking this medication. It is hard to tell if these changes are caused by temazepam or if they are caused by physical or mental illnesses that you already have or suddenly develop. Tell your doctor right away if you experience any of the following symptoms: aggressiveness, strange or unusually outgoing behavior, hallucinations (seeing things or hearing voices that do not exist), feeling as if you are outside of your body, memory problems, difficulty concentrating, new or worsening depression, thinking about killing yourself, confusion, and any other changes in your usual thoughts, mood, or behavior. Be sure that your family knows which symptoms may be serious so that they can call the doctor if you are unable to seek treatment on your own.
[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

20 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:17:04pm

So according to the medical reports, Zimmerman got his ass whipped and other than the gunshot wound of course, Trayvon literally only had a scratch on him. That's interesting.

I don't see what any of this is supposed to mean. If Zimmerman hadn't gotten out of his truck with a 9mm, Trayvon would be alive and nobody would have ever heard Zimmerman or Trayvon's name. It's ultimately his fault that he is on trial and Trayvon didn't get home to finish eating his Skittles and watch the All-Star game. He's the cause of that kid's death and he should pay for it.

21 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:17:40pm

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Perhaps Zimmerman attacked Trayvon's hands with his nose.

Maybe Trayvon shoved Zimmerman into the side of his truck.

Maybe Zimmerman tripped over his dick.

Maybe it happened exactly like Zimmerman said.

Maybe Mars Attacks is a documentary.

22 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:17:47pm

re: #19 jaunte

Sounds uncomfortable:

Probably not --if used as a sleep aid. You can get the same symtoms from sleep deprivation too.

We don't know his diagnosis.

An ADD person on Adderal usually doesn't need a sleep aid --so I don't understand. But, I am not a doctor.

23 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:18:14pm

re: #18 McSpiff

I gotta say, this looks more like a win for the defense than the prosecution from where I'm sitting.

Please explain.

24 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:19:38pm

re: #18 McSpiff

I gotta say, this looks more like a win for the defense than the prosecution from where I'm sitting.

I've been in one fight in my life so I don't know much about offensive or defensive wounds. Hoe does one person get their ass kicked and the other person literally just have one tiny scratch on them? I'm genuinely curious.

25 ProGunLiberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:20:56pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

Same thought.

Intermediate Range sounds doesn't really sound like self-defense here.

26 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:22:09pm

re: #25 ProGunLiberal

Same thought.

Intermediate Range sounds doesn't really sound like self-defense here.

It could be. It would depend on what had happened prior to the shooting and what Martin was doing when the shot was fired.

27 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:22:20pm

re: #24 moderatelyradicalliberal

I've been in one fight in my life so I don't know much about offensive or defensive wounds. Hoe does one person get their ass kicked and the other person literally just have one tiny scratch on them? I'm genuinely curious.

A quick push or pull can allow one person to get into the superior position and pretty much control the other person's head.

28 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:22:42pm

re: #25 ProGunLiberal

Same thought.

Intermediate Range sounds doesn't really sound like self-defense here.

8" does.

29 Mocking Jay  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:24:21pm

re: #28 Ghost of Insanity

8" does.

That's what she said.

30 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:25:23pm

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

Please explain.

Certainly looks like zimmerman was on the losing end of an altercation, and 3.5 feet still puts him within the "danger zone" of a fight. 3.5 feet away is a little more than an arms length away. Again, this is all based around Florida law. Even if zimmerman provoked the fight, a solid defense based around "he ran his mouth, martin attacked first, he was losing, he feared for his life, he fired in self defense". And don't let zimmerman anywhere near the stand. I don't like it, but I don't think this is a slam dunk for anyone yet..

31 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:25:29pm

re: #29 Assemble!

That's what she said.

SMACK!

32 Eventual Carrion  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:25:51pm

re: #25 ProGunLiberal

Same thought.

Intermediate Range sounds doesn't really sound like self-defense here.

And if he was holding and aiming the gun at arms length you can add the length of Zimm's arm to the distance between them at the time of the discharge. At the far end of intermediate at 3.5 feet and adding arm length of (guess) 2.5 feet. They could have been up to 6 - 7 feet apart. Wonder what the supposed video from the pool/club house in the development shows?

33 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:25:53pm

re: #29 Assemble!

That's what she said.

She always asks me "Is that it?"

34 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:26:23pm

re: #28 Ghost of Insanity

8" does.

3.5 feet does. We will never know how the fight started, but we do know there never would have been a fight if George Zimmerman hadn't followed Trayvon with a loaded 9mm. He created the situation and he's responsible for the kids deaht, even if he did get his ass whipped. Good for Trayvon if he got a few punches in.

35 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:26:45pm

re: #30 McSpiff

Certainly looks like zimmerman was on the losing end of an altercation, and 3.5 feet still puts him within the "danger zone" of a fight. 3.5 feet away is a little more than an arms length away. Again, this is all based around Florida law. Even if zimmerman provoked the fight, a solid defense based around "he ran his mouth, martin attacked first, he was losing, he feared for his life, he fired in self defense". And don't let zimmerman anywhere near the stand. I don't like it, but I don't think this is a slam dunk for anyone yet..

Yeah, I could see that. And you're right about Florida law: As I understand it, Zimmerman can claim self-defense without taking the stand.

36 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:27:24pm

re: #24 moderatelyradicalliberal

I've been in one fight in my life so I don't know much about offensive or defensive wounds. Hoe does one person get their ass kicked and the other person literally just have one tiny scratch on them? I'm genuinely curious.

Yeah, it happens. I've seen fights where one guy will be black and blue, and the other nothing worse than a little bit of swelling around the knuckles. I'd be surprised if that was the case here given the size difference between the two, but again, you just need to introduce that doubt into the jury.

37 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:27:55pm

Ghost hunters.

38 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:29:08pm

re: #32 RayFerd

And if he was holding and aiming the gun at arms length you can add the length of Zimm's arm to the distance between them at the time of the discharge. At the far end of intermediate at 3.5 feet and adding arm length of (guess) 2.5 feet. They could have been up to 6 - 7 feet apart. Wonder what the supposed video from the pool/club house in the development shows?

Good point, I was taking that measurement as "man to man" as opposed to "tip of the barrel. " That weakens my previous point for sure.

39 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:30:12pm

re: #21 Ghost of Insanity

Maybe Mars Attacks is a documentary.

Downloading Slim Whitman mp3's now.

40 ProGunLiberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:30:44pm

The feeling I get off of Zimmerman is a racist bully who decided he wanted to harass Martin, and got scared when Martin (predictably) fought back.

He's to hoping that chode's life is ruined. Cause his bullying ended the life of a minor.

41 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:31:27pm

re: #36 McSpiff

Yeah, it happens. I've seen fights where one guy will be black and blue, and the other nothing worse than a little bit of swelling around the knuckles. I'd be surprised if that was the case here given the size difference between the two, but again, you just need to introduce that doubt into the jury.

I guess, I've been lucky in my lack of fighting. It was a girl fight so we both last some hair, but I won with good hard kick to the shin.

42 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:31:58pm

re: #21 Ghost of Insanity

Maybe Trayvon shoved Zimmerman into the side of his truck.

Maybe Zimmerman tripped over his dick.

Maybe it happened exactly like Zimmerman said.

Maybe Mars Attacks is a documentary.

Yup. There could be tens of thousands of facts pertinent to this case. We probably don't know a dozen that are not controvertible. I'm glad it's (finally) in the hands of investigators. Let's hope the pros and the jury do their jobs.

43 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:32:20pm

re: #41 moderatelyradicalliberal

I guess, I've been lucky in my lack of fighting. It was a girl fight so we both last some hair, but I won with good hard kick to the shin.

Important (and very sad) to note that Martin died shortly after whatever altercation happened. I'm assuming that would stop things like bruising, etc from appearing later? Any science geeks in the house tonight?

44 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:33:23pm

re: #40 ProGunLiberal

The feeling I get off of Zimmerman is a racist bully who decided he wanted to harass Martin, and got scared when Martin (predictably) fought back.

He's to hoping that chode's life is ruined. Cause his bullying ended the life of a minor.

Thats what my gut is telling me too.

45 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:34:35pm

re: #36 McSpiff

Yeah, it happens. I've seen fights where one guy will be black and blue, and the other nothing worse than a little bit of swelling around the knuckles. I'd be surprised if that was the case here given the size difference between the two, but again, you just need to introduce that doubt into the jury.

Is there actually a definitive height and weight for both released? I see Trayvon on the police report was listed as 6' 160lbs and Zimmerman is listed as 5'9" with no weight listed, but from the arrest video he doesn't look like the 200lbs people were throwing around at first.

46 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:36:22pm

Possible Scenario

A pissed off, 6' 2" Trayvon quickly walks up to Zimmerman who turns around. Trayvon immediately shoots both hands into Zimmerman's chest with all of his 150lbs behind the abrupt push.

The 230lb Zimmerman, who does not know how to fight, or recover from being over balanced, falls on his ass, and Trayvon jumps on top, pinning one or both of Zimmerman's arms under his knees.

Trayvon gives Zimmerman a swift elbow to the nose, breaking it, and then smacks Zimmerman's head into the ground several times.

Trayvon then gets up off Zimmerman and threatens him with repercussions if he follows him again. Zimmenrman stands up, pulls his gun, points it at Trayvon and pulls the trigger.

Now, where in the SYG does this scenario fit?

47 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:37:43pm

re: #42 Decatur Deb

Yup. There could be tens of thousands of facts pertinent to this case. We probably don't know a dozen that are not controvertible. I'm glad it's (finally) in the hands of investigators. Let's hope the pros and the jury do their jobs.

Quite Concur.

48 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:37:47pm

re: #43 McSpiff

Important (and very sad) to note that Martin died shortly after whatever altercation happened. I'm assuming that would stop things like bruising, etc from appearing later? Any science geeks in the house tonight?

According to the NIH post-mortem bruising can occur by injuries before and after death. It might be difficult to determine which.

[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

49 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:39:00pm

re: #48 moderatelyradicalliberal

According to the NIH post-mortem bruising can occur by injuries before and after death. It might be difficult to determine which.

[Link: www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...]

Well today I learned.. thanks for looking that up

50 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:39:15pm

re: #40 ProGunLiberal

The feeling I get off of Zimmerman is a racist bully who decided he wanted to harass Martin, and got scared when Martin (predictably) fought back.

He's to hoping that chode's life is ruined. Cause his bullying ended the life of a minor.

What I get is a scared, confused kid inside an adult body trying to impress the adults around him by acting tough and righteous. He went too far and didn't even notice until too late and Trayvon paid for Zimmerman's error.

51 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:39:19pm

re: #46 Ghost of Insanity

Possible Scenario

A pissed off, 6' 2" Trayvon quickly walks up to Zimmerman who turns around. Trayvon immediately shoots both hands into Zimmerman's chest with all of his 150lbs behind the abrupt push.

The 230lb Zimmerman, who does not know how to fight, or recover from being over balanced, falls on his ass, and Trayvon jumps on top, pinning one or both of Zimmerman's arms under his knees.

Trayvon gives Zimmerman a swift elbow to the nose, breaking it, and then smacks Zimmerman's head into the ground several times.

Trayvon then gets up off Zimmerman and threatens him with repercussions if he follows him again. Zimmenrman stands up, pulls his gun, points it at Trayvon and pulls the trigger.

Now, where in the SYG does this scenario fit?

That would likely be manslaughter. It could be murder, but it would be very difficult to rove Zimmerman had the mens rea needed to prove that crime.

52 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:39:46pm

re: #46 Ghost of Insanity

Presumably the autopsy would have mentioned if Martin was shot in the back.

53 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:39:52pm

re: #49 McSpiff

Well today I learned.. thanks for looking that up

You're welcome. It was a good question. I was wondering about bruising myself.

54 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:40:57pm

re: #43 McSpiff

Important (and very sad) to note that Martin died shortly after whatever altercation happened. I'm assuming that would stop things like bruising, etc from appearing later? Any science geeks in the house tonight?

The heart will beat for a while unless the bullet damaged the nerves or muscle tissue.

55 Eventual Carrion  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:42:07pm

re: #52 McSpiff

Presumably the autopsy would have mentioned if Martin was shot in the back.

You would think, and wasn't there a mention of a chest gunshot wound in the examination report? I don't remember a mention of an exit wound.

56 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:43:17pm

re: #52 McSpiff

Presumably the autopsy would have mentioned if Martin was shot in the back.

I didn't say he was shot in the back.

57 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:45:15pm
58 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:45:56pm

re: #55 RayFerd

You would think, and wasn't there a mention of a chest gunshot wound in the examination report? I don't remember a mention of an exit wound.

They are pretty good at figuring this stuff out. I'm guessing the location and angle of the gun shot wounds also match Zimmerman's story. People are lousy liars when under stress and forced to tell their story on short notice. If Zimmerman is lying there's a good chance he made a mistake somewhere but so far none of the evidence contradicts his account.

59 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:47:38pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

They are pretty good at figuring this stuff out. I'm guessing the location and angle of the gun shot wounds also match Zimmerman's story. People are lousy liars when under stress and forced to tell their story on short notice. If Zimmerman is lying there's a good chance he made a mistake somewhere but so far none of the evidence contradicts his account.

People are also lousy at remembering accurately when under stress.

60 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:51:46pm

re: #59 Ghost of Insanity

People are also lousy at remembering accurately when under stress.

That's why defense attorneys are so firm about the point that if you are being questioned by the police, don't answer questions requiring complex recollection without counsel. Sadly, people have ended up convicted because they gave bad answers in the immediate aftermath of an incident.

61 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:51:58pm

re: #59 Ghost of Insanity

People are also lousy at remembering accurately when under stress.

And very good at remembering a story that benefits them. Especially when the other person with a story to tell is dead. The thing Zimmerman has always had going for him is that he shot with deadly accuracy. If there is a contradictory story to how the fight started, we will never hear it. Zimmerman will go to jail if they believe the altercation started when he followed Trayvon with a 9mm. He will get off if they believe the altercation stared when and how he says it did.

62 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:52:12pm

re: #59 Ghost of Insanity

People are also lousy at remembering accurately when under stress.

That too. One of the examples that sticks with me is the calls for help. Zimmerman told police when they arrived that he was calling for help. The cries can be heard on the 9-11 tapes. Would he have the forethought to lie and claim that Trayvon's calls for help were his knowing that it would help his case somehow? Under stress and on short notice I really doubt he would have so much forethought. It just seems unlikely to me.

63 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:52:34pm

Full disclosure:

I haven't been in a real fight for decades, but when I was I would grab the opponent's lapels, fall back and twist so the other guy was under me.

I had two younger brothers who used to go to bars with the purpose of getting into a fight, and my brother Rick, who was the toughest bugger I knew, used to do exactly what I described in the scenario, so it wasn't just pulled out of my spacious ass.

64 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:53:48pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That too. One of the examples that sticks with me is the calls for help. Zimmerman told police when they arrived that he was calling for help. The cries can be heard on the 9-11 tapes. Would he have the forethought to lie and claim that Trayvon's calls for help were his knowing that it would help his case somehow? Under stress and on short notice I really doubt he would have so much forethought. It just seems unlikely to me.

It's not much of a stretch for me to think that a man who is lying about how a fight went down said he was yelling for help when he wasn't. It's also not beyond belief to me that he was, at some point, yelling for help.

65 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:54:14pm

re: #56 Ghost of Insanity

I didn't say he was shot in the back.

I somehow added "and walks away" to your narrative. Sorry, now my post doesnt make sense...

66 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:55:36pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That too. One of the examples that sticks with me is the calls for help. Zimmerman told police when they arrived that he was calling for help. The cries can be heard on the 9-11 tapes. Would he have the forethought to lie and claim that Trayvon's calls for help were his knowing that it would help his case somehow? Under stress and on short notice I really doubt he would have so much forethought. It just seems unlikely to me.

The voice analysis done didn't verify that it was him yelling on the 911 call. They can't compare it to Trayvon because he's too dead to have voice.

67 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:57:05pm

Interesting development.

68 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:58:02pm

Anybody find a link to the actual autopsy report yet? All I can find are references to it.

69 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:58:04pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That too. One of the examples that sticks with me is the calls for help. Zimmerman told police when they arrived that he was calling for help. The cries can be heard on the 9-11 tapes. Would he have the forethought to lie and claim that Trayvon's calls for help were his knowing that it would help his case somehow? Under stress and on short notice I really doubt he would have so much forethought. It just seems unlikely to me.

Good question.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is one seriously fucked up situation, that probably would not have happened if a single event, including the law, was different. I think when you throw an angry, fearful kid, an immature fearful vigilante wanna-be and a really stupid law together, this is the crap you get.

70 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 7:59:13pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

They are pretty good at figuring this stuff out. I'm guessing the location and angle of the gun shot wounds also match Zimmerman's story. People are lousy liars when under stress and forced to tell their story on short notice. If Zimmerman is lying there's a good chance he made a mistake somewhere but so far none of the evidence contradicts his account.

The DA has said part of the reason they're prosecuting him is inconsistencies in his story.

And again: I'm not sure why people are acting like this is a revelation. From the beginning, it's seemed likely that a scuffle occurred after Zimmerman followed Trayvon.

The issue is whether Zimmerman shooting Trayvon was lawful. The SYG law means, unfortunately, that it very likely was, since it is so badly written that people are going to argue that getting the minor injuries that he did led him to fear great injury or death. It's stupid, because that basically legitimizes lethal force as a response to all force being used.

The other aspect that I've seen reported is that Zimmerman has said that Trayvon tried to get control of the gun. If that's the actual point that his defense rests on, then that sets the precedent that if there's a gun involved in a scuffle, you better try to get it and shoot the other guy because it automatically escalates the allowable force to lethal.

There's also the fact that the original questioning of Zimmerman was done by a vice detective, not a homicide detective, which made a lot of the original questioning a lot less worthwhile than it could have been.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:00:32pm

re: #66 moderatelyradicalliberal

The voice analysis done didn't verify that it was him yelling on the 911 call. They can't compare it to Trayvon because he's too dead to have voice.

Is there a way to use, perhaps, video of Trayvon? Something he might have recorded for a class project, or a YouTube thing? Voicemail messages?

72 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:00:58pm

re: #69 Ghost of Insanity

Why do you think he was angry? You mean, at being followed by some weird dude?

73 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:01:32pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Pretty much nailed it. Take the facts of this to my jurisdiction and the verdict is 2nd degree murder after about 45 minutes tops. But this case is going to be tried within the legal reality that is Florida.

74 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:02:22pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Why do you think he was angry? You mean, at being followed by some weird dude?

Followed and most likely confronted/provoked by.

75 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:03:13pm

re: #69 Ghost of Insanity

Good question.

As I mentioned in another thread, this is one seriously fucked up situation, that probably would not have happened if a single event, including the law, was different. I think when you throw an angry, fearful kid an immature fearful vigilante wanna-be and a really stupid law together, this is the crap you get.

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to. It seems to me that the partisan angles are probably missing the point. There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

76 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:03:13pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Why do you think he was angry? You mean, at being followed by some weird dude?

Yes.

I put myself in his place and added a bit of teenager bravado.

77 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:04:10pm

re: #61 moderatelyradicalliberal

Zimmerman will go to jail if they believe the altercation started when he followed Trayvon with a 9mm. He will get off if they believe the altercation stared when and how he says it did.

The problem with this is "following" is not illegal. Maybe stupid, but not illegal. To me it all comes down to how the physical altercation began, if Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon and tried to detain him or flashed his gun as a threat, then I'd say he would be legally liable if Trayvon just didn't like being followed and started the physical altercation then I think self defense stands. Hopefully they have some video that will shed some light on that, but if not I don't see how you get beyond reasonable doubt.

78 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:04:42pm

re: #72 Obdicut

Why do you think he was angry? You mean, at being followed by some weird dude?

Anger is also a normal reaction to fear.

79 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:05:24pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation.

The guy who went out as an armed vigilante to tail a random teenager for no other reason than he felt he looked suspicious isn't a demon, but he is a really, really stupid shithead whose actions led to the death of Trayvon Martin.

And Travyon may not have been a saint, but he was walking home from the store. He wasn't looking for a confrontation. Even if he did confront Zimmerman after having been followed, that's not something he started.

There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

Good thing we have you, the only wise and impartial man in the world, to spell it all out for us.

80 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:06:45pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I think its impossible to see Zimmerman as anything but in the wrong for the entire situation. He may manage to stay within the legal gray area but don't think for a minute that he wasn't in the wrong.

81 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:06:49pm

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

Is there a way to use, perhaps, video of Trayvon? Something he might have recorded for a class project, or a YouTube thing? Voicemail messages?

I'm not sure, but the 911 tape isn't the best sound quality and a recording of Trayvon's voice might not be either. I'm guessing there is no substitute for the real thing. You would probably need to compare them both screaming and yelling.

82 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:07:02pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to. It seems to me that the partisan angles are probably missing the point. There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

///Yes the kid with a can of soda and bag of skittles being approached by an armed man with no legal authority was not a "saint" and the armed man who decided to refrain from following 911 operators advice and ended up killing said body is not a "demon...

83 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:07:19pm

re: #77 danarchy

The problem with this is "following" is not illegal. Maybe stupid, but not illegal. To me it all comes down to how the physical altercation began, if Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon and tried to detain him or flashed his gun as a threat, then I'd say he would be legally liable if Trayvon just didn't like being followed and started the physical altercation then I think self defense stands. Hopefully they have some video that will shed some light on that, but if not I don't see how you get beyond reasonable doubt.

Were they standing, was Trayvon standing and Zimmerman on the ground, or were both on the ground?

Each of these puts a slightly different spin on the events, but we won't know until the investigation is over.

84 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:07:34pm

"it must be my music"
85 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:08:54pm

re: #83 Ghost of Insanity

Were they standing, was Trayvon standing and Zimmerman on the ground, or were both on the ground?

Each of these puts a slightly different spin on the events, but we won't know until the investigation is over.

Be fair here, was trayvon on the ground and zimmerman standing is equally likely at this point.

86 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:09:30pm

re: #79 Obdicut

The guy who went out as an armed vigilante to tail a random teenager for no other reason than he felt he looked suspicious isn't a demon, but he is a really, really stupid shithead whose actions led to the death of Trayvon Martin.

And Travyon may not have been a saint, but he was walking home from the store. He wasn't looking for a confrontation. Even if he did confront Zimmerman after having been followed, that's not something he started.

Good thing we have you, the only wise and impartial man in the world, to spell it all out for us.

I hope you don't mind me emphasizing what I think are important points in your post.

87 Killgore Trout  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:10:00pm

re: #82 jamesfirecat

///Yes the kid with a can of soda and bag of skittles being approached by an armed man with no legal authority was not a "saint" and the armed man who decided to refrain from following 911 operators advice and ended up killing said body is not a "demon...

Perhaps more hysterical over the top rhetoric will advance your cause.

88 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:10:50pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Perhaps more hysterical over the top rhetoric will advance your cause.

Perhaps more uncalled for equivocation will advance yours.

89 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:10:58pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Perhaps more hysterical over the top rhetoric will advance your cause.

Its ok that you don't like the facts of the case, but crying over it just makes the thread awkward.

90 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:11:34pm

re: #85 McSpiff

Be fair here, was trayvon on the ground and zimmerman standing is equally likely at this point.

Yes, but much less likely given the reported injuries, assuming Zimmerman's injuries are a result of the fight.

91 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:12:37pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

Perhaps more hysterical over the top rhetoric will advance your cause.

What's the word for when you hysterically accuse other people of being hysterical? Is that irony, or something else?

92 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:13:12pm

re: #91 Obdicut

What's the word for when you hysterically accuse other people of being hysterical? Is that irony, or something else?

Desperation. or trolling.

93 William Barnett-Lewis  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:13:18pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

There is no MBF here, KT. Only a freak who stalked and murdered a kid.

94 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:14:23pm

Honestly, I don't know how I'd react if I had been being followed by Zimmerman like that. I probably would have ran but I thankfully have never been in that position.

95 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:14:41pm

re: #91 Obdicut

What's the word for when you hysterically accuse other people of being hysterical? Is that irony, or something else?

Ironic projection?

96 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:16:12pm

re: #77 danarchy

The problem with this is "following" is not illegal. Maybe stupid, but not illegal. To me it all comes down to how the physical altercation began, if Zimmerman grabbed Trayvon and tried to detain him or flashed his gun as a threat, then I'd say he would be legally liable if Trayvon just didn't like being followed and started the physical altercation then I think self defense stands. Hopefully they have some video that will shed some light on that, but if not I don't see how you get beyond reasonable doubt.

That's the problem. There is no independent verification of how the fight started. You don't even have two contradicting stories, because one person is dead. If Zimmerman got physical or made a threat or Trayvon saw the gun a freaked out will never be known. I don't know anything about this law or much about the law period. I'm not trying to play lawyer. I suppose I can only speak about moral culpability and for me that's simple:

Zimmerman stays in his truck = Trayvon alive
Zimmerman gets out of his truck with a 9mm = Trayvon dead

If anybody has a plausible scenario under which Zimmerman stays in his truck and doesn't follow Trayvon and Trayvon still ends up being killed by Zimmerman's 9mm, I'm all ears. For me that's where it starts, but I have no doubt the idiots in Florida found a way to write a law that makes it legal for people to create situations like this and bare no responsibility for it.

97 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:16:34pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I don't know how I'd react if I had been being followed by Zimmerman like that. I probably would have ran but I thankfully have never been in that position.

I'd hightail it, my younger brother Rick would have pounded the shit out of Zimmerman.

Humans just don't all react the same.

98 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:17:25pm

re: #97 Ghost of Insanity

I'd hightail it, my younger brother Rick would have pounded the shit out of Zimmerman.

Humans just don't all react the same.

Yeah and I was someone who didn't like fighting. I think from what I know about the story that Zimemrman clearly profiled the kid.

99 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:17:31pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I don't know how I'd react if I had been being followed by Zimmerman like that. I probably would have ran but I thankfully have never been in that position.

Nope around that age I was way too stupid to run.

100 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:17:36pm

re: #87 Killgore Trout

James came across as angry, but I don't see where you get "hysterical", Killgore. James has been level-headed this entire thread.

101 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:18:11pm

re: #62 Killgore Trout

That too. One of the examples that sticks with me is the calls for help. Zimmerman told police when they arrived that he was calling for help. The cries can be heard on the 9-11 tapes. Would he have the forethought to lie and claim that Trayvon's calls for help were his knowing that it would help his case somehow? Under stress and on short notice I really doubt he would have so much forethought. It just seems unlikely to me.

I like how you being impartial and not jumping to conclusions manifests as this kind of baseless assumption - that someone involved in the stalking and shooting death of an unarmed teenager is unlikely to have the forethought to lie. I'm curious where you found the data to support your conclusion that stressed individuals are less capable of fabricating falsehoods?

102 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:18:14pm

re: #99 McSpiff

Nope around that age I was way too stupid to run.

Also, fat.

103 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:18:29pm

re: #99 McSpiff

Nope around that age I was way too stupid to run.

Yeah I guess I don't know for sure what I would have done. I would have been scared and I think Trevyon was too.

104 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:19:52pm

re: #103 HappyWarrior

Yeah I guess I don't know for sure what I would have done. I would have been scared and I think Trevyon was too.

Similar situation with a small group of friends around that age resulted in a car window getting smashed out.

105 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:21:13pm

re: #98 HappyWarrior

Yeah and I was someone who didn't like fighting. I think from what I know about the story that Zimemrman clearly profiled the kid.

I don't think there is any doubt.

Did he profile because he's a bigot? Because he was told by a bigot that's how to do it? Or for some other reason?

I hope the investigators take the time to get this right.

106 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:21:39pm

re: #101 goddamnedfrank

I'm curious where you found the data to support your conclusion that stressed individuals are less capable of fabricating falsehoods?

LOL, just realized I'm asking this of a guy who actually thinks that torture works.

107 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:21:50pm

re: #104 McSpiff

Similar situation with a small group of friends around that age resulted in a car window getting smashed out.

Yikes. As I said, I would have been scared.

108 dragonfire1981  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:22:10pm

re: #13 jaunte

CBS has this:

[Link: www.cbsnews.com...]

The court documents also show that prior to the shooting, Zimmerman had received prescriptions for Adderall and Temazepam, which have been shown to cause agitation and mood swings, though in less than 10 percent of consumers.

I am currently taking adderall for my ADD. Before that I was on a different (but similar acting) medication for the same thing. My wife told me there was a very noticeable difference in my mood while taking this drug. I got agitated MUCH more easily and lost my temper FAR faster than I usually do.

And I'm usually a pretty controlled person. So medicine of this nature CAN affect your mood and decision making skills.

109 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:22:29pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I don't know how I'd react if I had been being followed by Zimmerman like that. I probably would have ran but I thankfully have never been in that position.

I likely would have waited to find out what he wanted and then tried to avoid a confrontation. Result: impossible to say. But it changes things to me in Trayvon's situation, frankly because I'm white.

110 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:22:32pm

re: #102 McSpiff

Also, fat.

At that age I was 6' and about 160lbs. But I hated getting into fights so I avoided them.

111 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:22:41pm

re: #105 Ghost of Insanity

I don't think there is any doubt.

Did he profile because he's a bigot? Because he was told by a bigot that's how to do it? Or for some other reason?

I hope the investigators take the time to get this right.

I don't know if he's a bigot or not really yet. I do think that he did act improperly. Doesn't necessary mean he committed murder but he's no hero.

112 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:23:32pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

I likely would have waited to find out what he wanted and then tried to avoid a confrontation. Result: impossible to say. But it changes things to me in Trayvon's situation, frankly because I'm white.

Yeah the racial thing is something that we have to honestly look at here.

113 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:24:05pm

re: #94 HappyWarrior

Honestly, I don't know how I'd react if I had been being followed by Zimmerman like that. I probably would have ran but I thankfully have never been in that position.

I'm a was a 5"3' girl so I probably wouldn't have been able to outrun him. But had he caught up to me I would have assumed the worst and went for his nuts or his shins. It amazes me that what seems to be lost on so many people is that Trayvon was scared and had good reason to be. When he saw George Zimmerman he was looking at his Grim Reaper.

114 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:25:05pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to. It seems to me that the partisan angles are probably missing the point. There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

You so casually describe a parent's loss of an innocent child. All in the name of what? Your goal of "balancing" LGF? It sucks where you've let that goal lead you.

115 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:26:11pm

re: #96 moderatelyradicalliberal

but I have no doubt the idiots in Florida found a way to write a law that makes it legal for people to create situations like this and bare no responsibility for it.

I don't think politicians in Florida wrote the law, they were handed a draft of the bill from either ALEC or the NRA and they submitted it and voted on it.

116 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:26:57pm

re: #108 dragonfire1981

I am currently taking adderall for my ADD. Before that I was on a different (but similar acting) medication for the same thing. My wife told me there was a very noticeable difference in my mood while taking this drug. I got agitated MUCH more easily and lost my temper FAR faster than I usually do.

And I'm usually a pretty controlled person. So medicine of this nature CAN affect your mood and decision making skills.

I've been on several different anti-depressants. I've had anger issues all my life, but when I took Remeron, it was even worse. Now I take Effexor which suppresses Nor-epinephrine and I have little anger.

The drugs taken can make a huge difference in attitudes.

117 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:27:09pm

re: #113 moderatelyradicalliberal

I'm a was a 5"3' girl so I probably wouldn't have been able to outrun him. But had he caught up to me I would have assumed the worst and went for his nuts or his shins. It amazes me that what seems to be lost on so many people is that Trayvon was scared and had good reason to be. When he saw George Zimmerman he was looking at his Grim Reaper.

Poor kid had to have been scared.

118 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:29:04pm

re: #114 Residence: Hopeandchangeistan 2012

You so casually describe a parent's loss of an innocent child. All in the name of what? Your goal of "balancing" LGF? It sucks where you've let that goal lead you.

I don't like calling Trayvon Martin an "innocent child". He was 17, well past the age of innocence. What is true is that was not a malicious person, and that he was minding his own business and no threat to anyone when Zimmerman started following him.

119 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:30:22pm

re: #112 HappyWarrior

Yeah the racial thing is something that we have to honestly look at here.

The stress of being constantly under suspicion because of a physical characteristic that is not under your control is huge.

120 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:30:42pm

re: #115 Mich-again

I don't think politicians in Florida wrote the law, they were handed a draft of the bill from either ALEC or the NRA and they submitted it and voted on it.

This I believe. Notice how quiet both groups have been. I fully expected the NRA to release a statement saying that this wouldn't have happened if Trayvon had his own gun. That seems to be their usual response.

My dream is that one day thousands of black men will show up at an NRA convention wearing visible firearms advocating that the NRA lobby for higher rates of black gun ownership to protect themselves and their children from racial profilers like Zimmerman who may shoot them. Hilarity then ensues.

121 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:30:55pm

Trayvon did nothing wrong and trying to "share the blame" to strike a balance is silly. If there is blame to share it is between Zimmerman and the Sanford police Department who knew perfectly well that GZ was a loose cannon on the prowl for suspicious looking African Americans in the neighborhood.

122 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:31:41pm

re: #117 HappyWarrior

Poor kid had to have been scared.

Yes, he would have been scared. However, that does not mean he wouldn't have taken steps he thought would stop the stalking.

123 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:32:27pm

re: #121 Mich-again

Trayvon did nothing wrong and trying to "share the blame" to strike a balance is silly. If there is blame to share it is between Zimmerman and the Sanford police Department who knew perfectly well that GZ was a loose cannon on the prowl for suspicious looking African Americans in the neighborhood.

Both sides do it! Magical Balance Fairy! OWS!
/

124 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:32:32pm

re: #122 Ghost of Insanity

Yes, he would have been scared. However, that does not mean he wouldn't have taken steps he thought would stop the stalking.

Of course.

125 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:32:59pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

I don't like calling Trayvon Martin an "innocent child". He was 17, well past the age of innocence.

He was innocent, and he was under 18.

126 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:33:41pm

re: #119 jaunte

The stress of being constantly under suspicion because of a physical characteristic that is not under your control is huge.

Yeah there are way too many incidents of unarmed racial minorities being shot by white authority figures in this country. Big reason why I get so pissed off these white nationalists who act like being a white guy in this country is now this terrible thing. Shut the hell up assholes.

127 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:34:05pm

re: #119 jaunte

The stress of being constantly under suspicion because of a physical characteristic that is not under your control is huge.

Being a white male I can't personally identify with Trayvon, but watching my loved ones I can certainly attest to the stress added by racism.

128 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:35:04pm

OT.. I just love this line from Mitt's website..

Governor Romney understands immigration. He was the Governor of the home of the first European immigrants to the Nation.

Well alrighty then. Who can argue with that!

129 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:35:22pm

re: #121 Mich-again

Trayvon did nothing wrong and trying to "share the blame" to strike a balance is silly. If there is blame to share it is between Zimmerman and the Sanford police Department who knew perfectly well that GZ was a loose cannon on the prowl for suspicious looking African Americans in the neighborhood.

Trayvon is the only one in this situation without blame.

130 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:36:50pm

=. re: #128 Mich-again

OT.. I just love this line from Mitt's website..

Well alrighty then. Who can argue with that!

Uh history major nitpick here but North Carolina and Virginia beat Massachusetts to that punch. I am not going to go 57 states on it but if you're going to use that to say you understand immigration, get the facts straight.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:36:51pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to. It seems to me that the partisan angles are probably missing the point. There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

The only partisan angle I've got is that I generally ask for jury trial if one guy had a gun, and the other didn't, and the one without a gun is dead.

132 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:37:27pm

re: #120 moderatelyradicalliberal

This I believe. Notice how quiet both groups have been. I fully expected the NRA to release a statement saying that this wouldn't have happened if Trayvon had his own gun. That seems to be their usual response.

My dream is that one day thousands of black men will show up at an NRA convention wearing visible firearms advocating that the NRA lobby for higher rates of black gun ownership to protect themselves and their children from racial profilers like Zimmerman who may shoot them. Hilarity then ensues.

Image: guns-2.jpg

133 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:37:29pm

re: #125 Mich-again

I don't like calling Trayvon Martin an "innocent child". He was 17, well past the age of innocence.

He was innocent, and he was under 18.

I think the two of you are operating under different definitions of innocent.

134 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:37:38pm

re: #128 Mich-again

OT.. I just love this line from Mitt's website..

Well alrighty then. Who can argue with that!

Um, no he wasn't. Jamestown, Virginia was settled before Plymouth, Massachusetts.

135 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:38:58pm

re: #129 Ghost of Insanity

Trayvon is the only one in this situation without blame.

The Sanford cops knew they had helped create the monster that GZ became which is part of the reason why they wanted to sweep this all under the rug.

136 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:39:01pm

re: #128 Mich-again

OT.. I just love this line from Mitt's website..

Well alrighty then. Who can argue with that!

I'm an expert in shamanism, because I live in a province where it was practiced at least 10,000 years ago.

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:39:02pm

re: #132 Decatur Deb

Image: guns-2.jpg

Bunch of cop-murdering scumbags, those guys. We're talking about decent people here.

138 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:39:12pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

I don't like calling Trayvon Martin an "innocent child". He was 17, well past the age of innocence. What is true is that was not a malicious person, and that he was minding his own business and no threat to anyone when Zimmerman started following him.

Dude, he was an innocent kid.

139 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:40:13pm

re: #128 Mich-again

OT.. I just love this line from Mitt's website..

Well alrighty then. Who can argue with that!

He's also wrong.

The first European settlement in the US (of a lasting nature) was St. Augustine, by the Spanish, in 1565. Then there was Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607. So what the fuck is Romney talking about?

140 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:40:30pm

re: #135 Mich-again

The Sanford cops knew they had helped create the monster that GZ became which is part of the reason why they wanted to sweep this all under the rug.

I suspect an ex-judge father might also have some effect.

141 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:40:33pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Um, no he wasn't. Jamestown, Virginia was settled before Plymouth, Massachusetts.

St. Augustine FL, 1565. Or does Mitt think they're illegals?

142 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:40:47pm

re: #141 Decatur Deb

St. Augustine FL, 1565. Or does Mitt think they're illegals?

"Self-deport." :D

143 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:41:11pm

And now I feel stupid for forgetting St. Augustine. Was simply thinking of English settlements.

144 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:41:16pm

re: #137 Dark_Falcon

Bunch of cop-murdering scumbags, those guys. We're talking about decent people here.

All of them?

145 jamesfirecat  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:41:41pm

re: #134 Dark_Falcon

Um, no he wasn't. Jamestown, Virginia was settled before Plymouth, Massachusetts.

And Technically Roanoak colony in North Carolina though that one didn't really take....

146 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:41:58pm

re: #143 HappyWarrior

And now I feel stupid for forgetting St. Augustine. Was simply thinking of English settlements.

So was the Mittster.

147 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:42:42pm

re: #145 jamesfirecat

And Technically Roanoak colony in North Carolina though that one didn't really take...

Which gave us the namesake of everyone's famous nutso website, VDare. By the way, I've been down that way before. Good beaches. Was cool to actually to See Roanoke island after learning about in school.

148 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:42:59pm

re: #143 HappyWarrior

And now I feel stupid for forgetting St. Augustine. Was simply thinking of English settlements.

It also had the first European child born in what would become the United States.

149 Page 3 in the Binder of Women  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:10pm

Like the immigrants Romney mentioned wrongly had ANYTHING to do with his governorship! Lol. Reeaaching.

150 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:13pm

And the village built by Vikings in Newfoundland-Labrador predates them all.

151 blueraven  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:22pm

re: #118 Dark_Falcon

I don't like calling Trayvon Martin an "innocent child". He was 17, well past the age of innocence. What is true is that was not a malicious person, and that he was minding his own business and no threat to anyone when Zimmerman started following him.

Bull. In this case he was an innocent child. You dont know if he was a malicious person or not. But on that particular night, he was innocently going about his own business and he was a child. I am a mom of a boy just a bit older than Trayvon. Believe me, 17 is a child.

152 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:40pm

re: #129 Ghost of Insanity

Trayvon is the only one in this situation without blame.

I'm sorry, but you can't know that. You may assume that, but not knowing what actually happened you can't say he had no blame. If he decided to get physical when he could have tried talking or avoiding the situation he shares some blame. I don't know that's the case and you don't know it is not. Again as stupid as following a stranger in the middle of the night may be, it isn't illegal and a good share of the blame has to lie with whoever first decided to get physical first.

153 Obdicut  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:46pm

re: #150 Ghost of Insanity

And the village built by Vikings in Newfoundland-Labrador predates them all.

But they did self-deport.

154 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:43:59pm

re: #139 Obdicut

He's also wrong.

The first European settlement in the US (of a lasting nature) was St. Augustine, by the Spanish, in 1565. Then there was Jamestown, Virginia, in 1607. So what the fuck is Romney talking about?

I believe he is speaking Palinese. I wonder which wingnut will try to edit Wikipedia to fit Willard's version of history?

155 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:44:28pm

re: #151 blueraven

Bull. In this case he was an innocent child. You dont know if he was a malicious person or not. But on that particular night, he was innocently going about his own business and he was a child. I am a mom of a boy just a bit older than Trayvon. Believe me, 17 is a child.

D_F uses a different definition of innocent than most here would.

156 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:45:31pm

Governor Romney understands boogers. He was the Governor of a State he has zero chance of winning in the general election.

157 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:46:22pm

re: #156 goddamnedfrank

Governor Romney understands boogers. He was the Governor of a State he has zero chance of winning in the general election.

[Embedded content]

It may be the state that gives him the lowest percentage of the vote.

158 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:46:30pm

re: #153 Obdicut

But they did self-deport.

Yah.

They found the Canadian ganja wasn't all it was cracked up to be. They left because of the false advertising.

159 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:47:09pm

re: #154 moderatelyradicalliberal

I believe he is speaking Palinese. I wonder which wingnut will try to edit Wikipedia to fit Willard's version of history?

Actually I think Mitt believes the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, Aztec and Inca cities were all founded by Jews.

160 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:47:35pm

re: #109 Dark_Falcon

I likely would have waited to find out what he wanted and then tried to avoid a confrontation. Result: impossible to say. But it changes things to me in Trayvon's situation, frankly because I'm white.

Okay, now keep everything the same except one: It's night time, dark, hard to see, you're not in your own neighborhood. You're white and suddenly you're being followed a stranger, BUT the stranger is an armed black man. Do you still wait to find out what'll happen, or do you haul ass?

161 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:48:03pm

re: #152 danarchy

I'm sorry, but you can't know that. You may assume that, but not knowing what actually happened you can't say he had no blame. If he decided to get physical when he could have tried talking or avoiding the situation he shares some blame. I don't know that's the case and you don't know it is not. Again as stupid as following a stranger in the middle of the night may be, it isn't illegal and a good share of the blame has to lie with whoever first decided to get physical physical first.

George Zimmerman didn't do that. Why do you hold Trayvon to a higher standard then him? And according to SYG, he would not have been required to. Or does SYG not apply to him?

162 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:48:24pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

Actually I think Mitt believes the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, Aztec and Inca cities were all founded by Jews.

I suspect he does. Isn't that a Mormon belief?

163 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:49:16pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

Actually I think Mitt believes the Olmec, Toltec, Mayan, Aztec and Inca cities were all founded by Jews.

Now, now. That's very close to a dig at Mormonism.

164 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:49:33pm

re: #161 moderatelyradicalliberal

...according to SYG, he would not have been required to. Or does SYG not apply to him?

SYG only works for the armed participant.

165 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:49:40pm

re: #162 Ghost of Insanity

I suspect he does. Isn't that a Mormon belief?

Think so, ask one of our Mormon lizards.

166 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:50:05pm

re: #161 moderatelyradicalliberal

George Zimmerman didn't do that. Why do you hold Trayvon to a higher standard then him? And according to SYG, he would not have been required to. Or does SYG not apply to him?

I don't hold him to a higher standard I hold him to the same standard. If Zimmerman got physical first I would hold him fully responsible. If you can tell me that's the case with certainty then fry the bastard. Otherwise, it is all conjecture.

167 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:51:19pm

re: #163 moderatelyradicalliberal

Now, now. That's very close to a dig at Mormonism.

Not if it's accurate.

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:51:40pm

re: #82 jamesfirecat

///Yes the kid with a can of soda and bag of skittles being approached by an armed man with no legal authority was not a "saint" and the armed man who decided to refrain from following 911 operators advice and ended up killing said body is not a "demon...

I'd agree with this, no sarc. However, the kid was the victim, and the guy who shot him was...well, the trial will determine that, at least under the law.

169 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:52:07pm

re: #164 jaunte

SYG only works for the armed participant.

So according to this law, only people with guns have the right to stand their ground? Unarmed people don't have a right to self-defense if threatened? What about a knife or blunt object? You can shoot somebody to death, but not stab or beat them? Damn this is a stupid law. Now I know the NRA wrote it.

170 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:52:22pm

BTW, Mitt's site has more whoppers with cheese than a Burger King..

It is because of these beliefs that Mitt has proposed – and supports .. global currency regulation, and pausing all American government procurement of goods from China until they agree to the the Government Procurement Agreement written by the World Trade Organization.

Governor Romney listened to his constituents. President Obama forced his healthcare plan upon Americans, the majority of which opposed it.

Everyone should be welcome to come to the United States but they need to do it correctly, as have countless generations of Americans before us.

Mitt's track record is clear in his opposition towards Iran's posturing,

Governor Romney strongly believes that Radical Islam has only these goals: to eliminate Israel and replace all the world’s countries with Islamic states under one caliphate, forcing the conversion of all non-believers to Islam.

171 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:52:50pm

I think the funny part of what the website really isn't the Massachusetts statement which is an honest mistake. As I said, not going to go 57 states on this because I know Obama doesn't actually believe there are that many states and I want to give Romney the BoD about the St. Augustine, Roanoke, and Jamestown colonies which preceded the Massachusetts Bay Colony but saying your state had European immigrants in the early colonial period qualifies you to understand immigration issue. Odd thing to say.

172 freetoken  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:53:19pm

re: #159 Decatur Deb

Actually I think Mitt believes the Olmec, Totltec, Mayan, Aztec and Inca cities were all founded by Jews.

Close:

The Book of Mormon, one of the religious texts of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (Mormons), claims that early residents of the Americas included descendants of the tribe of Joseph, particularly through Manasseh.

173 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:53:29pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

So according to this law, only people with guns have the right to stand their ground? Unarmed people don't have a right to self-defense if threatened? What about a knife or blunt object? You can shoot somebody to death, but not stab or beat them? Damn this is a stupid law. Now I know the NRA wrote it.

It's a fucking stupid law!

174 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:53:35pm

re: #97 Ghost of Insanity

I'd hightail it, my younger brother Rick would have pounded the shit out of Zimmerman.

Humans just don't all react the same.

I've been followed by people I thought had bad intentions. I run. But I'm female, which makes a huge difference in socialization and crisis response.

175 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:54:17pm

re: #170 Mich-again

BTW, Mitt's site has more whoppers with cheese than a Burger King..

Sounds like more mental gymnastics. And the implication that all proceeding immigrant generations immigrated legally is revisionist.

176 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:54:22pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

The law allows you to apply deadly force 'without the duty to retreat, or give up ground to an assailant' if you feel under threat.

177 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:55:08pm

re: #166 danarchy

I don't hold him to a higher standard I hold him to the same standard. If Zimmerman got physical first I would hold him fully responsible. If you can tell me that's the case with certainty then fry the bastard. Otherwise, it is all conjecture.

So Trayvon had no right to defend himself from a strange person who was following him at night? Is that what you are saying? Trayvon got himself killed. I wonder if you would say that to his mother.

178 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:56:03pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

So according to this law, only people with guns have the right to stand their ground? Unarmed people don't have a right to self-defense if threatened? What about a knife or blunt object? You can shoot somebody to death, but not stab or beat them? Damn this is a stupid law. Now I know the NRA wrote it.

It's designed to sell concealed weapons, training, and permits, to everyone.

179 freetoken  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:56:34pm

Hey, Wikipedia even has a full entry on how fucked up the Book of Mormon is on this point:


Genetics and the Book of Mormon

180 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:56:56pm

re: #131 SanFranciscoZionist

The only partisan angle I've got is that I generally ask for jury trial if one guy had a gun, and the other didn't, and the one without a gun is dead.

This. There's a dead unarmed teenager who was breaking no laws and an adult who followed and killed him. Saying that that's a FUBAR situation and a trial is needed (and that it shouldn't be allowed to happen again) is hardly partisan.

181 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:57:12pm

re: #176 jaunte

The law allows you to apply deadly force 'without the duty to retreat, or give up ground to an assailant' if you feel under threat.

So the law would apply to Trayvon even if he started the fight. Being followed by a stranger at night is something most people would find threatening. I certainly would.

182 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:57:34pm

re: #160 CuriousLurker

Okay, now keep everything the same except one: It's night time, dark, hard to see, you're not in your own neighborhood. You're white and suddenly you're being followed a stranger, BUT the stranger is an armed black man. Do you still wait to find out what'll happen, or do you haul ass?

I can't haul ass, even at 17 my ass was too fat to haul. But unlike Trayvon, I've got my bag and some books therein to use as an emergency shield. I move into the shadows and try not be noticed. If he comes close and finds me, I strike first and strike hard. I profile him as hostile, based to no small extent on race.

183 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:57:36pm

re: #172 freetoken

Close:

Would explain the good deli in Tallequah.

184 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:57:58pm

re: #178 jaunte

It's designed to sell concealed weapons, training, and permits, to everyone.

Follow the money.

185 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:57:59pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

So according to this law, only people with guns have the right to stand their ground? Unarmed people don't have a right to self-defense if threatened? What about a knife or blunt object? You can shoot somebody to death, but not stab or beat them? Damn this is a stupid law. Now I know the NRA wrote it.

You're responding to hyperbole. SYG is a last man standing law, because that's the person who's story get's heard. As it happens last man standing often, but not always has a gun. Florida's SYG law was used previously to free a vigilante in a case of death by stabbing, where the killer hid the knife, sold stolen property taken from the dead thief, and lied to police when initially questioned.

186 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 8:58:34pm

re: #181 moderatelyradicalliberal

If Trayvon had been legally carrying a gun, (and we believe that Florida law enforcement is colorblind), maybe.

187 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:00:27pm

re: #185 goddamnedfrank

You're responding to hyperbole. SYG is a last man standing law, because that's the person who's story get's heard. As it happens last man standing often, but not always has a gun. Florida's SYG law was used previously to free a vigilante in a case of death by stabbing, where the killer hid the knife, sold stolen property taken from the dead thief, and lied to police when initially questioned.

I'd heard about the stabbing story. You said armed and my mind when to gun as in firearms.

188 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:00:43pm

re: #182 Dark_Falcon

I can't haul ass, even at 17 my ass was too fat to haul. But unlike Trayvon, I've got my bag and some books therein to use as an emergency shield. I move into the shadows and try not be noticed. If he comes close and finds me, I strike first and strike hard. I profile him as hostile, based to no small extent on race.

Which may very well be exactly what Trayvon did.

189 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:01:34pm

Well, ya' know . . . .

I walk away to some chores and you'll start posting. Were you waiting for me to leave? LOL

190 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:02:17pm

re: #186 jaunte

(and we believe that Florida law enforcement is colorblind)*

*One of my uncles-in-law now deceased was an officer in the Winter Haven FL police department, and simultaneously a member of the KKK, so, probably not.

191 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:02:29pm

re: #189 ggt

Well, ya' know . . .

I walk away to some chores and you'll start posting. Were you waiting for me to leave? LOL

Well, duh, YEAH. //

192 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:02:31pm

re: #189 ggt

Well, ya' know . . .

I walk away to some chores and you'll start posting. Were you waiting for me to leave? LOL

Yes.

193 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:03:41pm

re: #187 moderatelyradicalliberal

I'd heard about the stabbing story. You said armed and my mind when to gun as in firearms.

Strictly speaking SYG could apply in the case of a rear naked choke, though in practice it rewards increasing levels of lethal armament.

194 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:03:58pm

re: #188 CuriousLurker

Which may very well be exactly what Trayvon did.

Maybe. But under that scenario, if it came to light that I'd ambushed the other guy and I survived doing so but was caught by police, I'd end up in prison. At 17, I didn't understand just how much of a freak I really am and how easy that would make it to convict me of a crime.

195 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:04:17pm

re: #190 jaunte

*One of my uncles-in-law now deceased was an officer in the Winter Haven FL police department, and simultaneously a member of the KKK, so, probably not.

That seems like it was alarmingly common in the past. I know in the three Civil Rights workers who were murdered case, some of the accused were KKK members and members of the police department in that town.

196 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:04:35pm

re: #179 freetoken

Hey, Wikipedia even has a full entry on how fucked up the Book of Mormon is on this point:

Genetics and the Book of Mormon

WHY does it matter?

Is there some deep embedded chip in our genetic coding that is going to activate at some mythical predestined time and turn us all into zombies?

197 Talking Point Detective  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:05:04pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

What problem are the "derpers" missing?

What are the agendas being advanced?

198 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:05:39pm

So, I've been listening to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer.

I'm up the point where Hitler has written Mein Kampf.

He was seriously fucked-up.

199 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:06:33pm

I don't think the people at the NRA who wrote the SYG Bill for Florida anticipated that it would be used by someone to 1) start a fight. and then 2) use their gun to kill the person they started a fight with when that other person fought back.

The NRA and other gun advocates carry the assumption that anyone with a legal permit for their gun is an upstanding citizen otherwise they wouldn't have a permit. So they did not even anticipate abuse of the SYG law.

200 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:07:04pm

re: #198 ggt

So, I've been listening to the Rise and Fall of the Third Reich by William Shirer.

I'm up the point where Hitler has written Mein Kampf.

He was seriously fucked-up.

Funny, I'm nearly at that part in the two part Ian Kershaw biography. I'm right after the Beer Hall putsch. I recommend that if you're interested too. It's newer and Kershaw gives insights into Hitler's pre-WWI life.

201 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:07:38pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Maybe. But under that scenario, if it came to light that I'd ambushed the other guy and I survived doing so but was caught by police, I'd end up in prison. At 17, I didn't understand just how much of a freak I really am and how easy that would make it to convict me of a crime.

Well, in Florida you'd simply have been SYG, so you wouldn't have gone to prison had you survived. Presumably. After hearing about that woman who got 20 years for firing a warning shot, I'm not so sure.

Don't call yourself a freak. You're not a freak. Sheesh.

202 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:07:40pm

re: #195 HappyWarrior

That seems like it was alarmingly common in the past. I know in the three Civil Rights workers who were murdered case, some of the accused were KKK members and members of the police department in that town.

Like its fellow terrorist organizations, Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan worked to control local police when possible.

203 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:07:42pm

re: #199 Mich-again

I don't think the people at the NRA who wrote the SYG Bill for Florida anticipated that it would be used by someone to 1) start a fight. and then 2) use their gun to kill the person they started a fight with when that other person fought back.

The NRA and other gun advocates carry the assumption that anyone with a legal permit for their gun is an upstanding citizen otherwise they wouldn't have a permit. So they did not even anticipate abuse of the SYG law.

They were trying (I think) to prevent some of the abuses of personal rights that had happened in Britain. I believe those have been resolved.

Good Intentions, and America is not England.

204 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:08:14pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Like its fellow terrorist organizations, Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan worked to control local police when possible.

Power junkies.

205 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:08:37pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Like its fellow terrorist organizations, Al Qaeda and the Taliban, the Ku Klux Klan worked to control local police when possible.

Nazis seem to have been the same way.

206 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:08:51pm

re: #177 moderatelyradicalliberal

So Trayvon had no right to defend himself from a strange person who was following him at night? Is that what you are saying? Trayvon got himself killed. I wonder if you would say that to his mother.

Sure if he was attacked he has every right to defend himself. Following is not an attack. All I am saying is we don't KNOW what happened. At one point in the phone call Zimmerman lost him. Did he find him again? Did Trayvon re-engage? I don't know, and without knowing how can you make that determination.

SYG aside, I don't believe you can defend yourself until you have actually been attacked. Not a fan of preemptive strikes. Again, I don't know that's what happened, but people seem to be saying even if Trayvon did hit first it was justified because he was being followed and I just don't agree with that.

207 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:08:57pm

re: #191 CuriousLurker

Well, duh, YEAH. //

I knew it!

208 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:09:28pm

re: #206 danarchy

Sure if he was attacked he has every right to defend himself. Following is not an attack. All I am saying is we don't KNOW what happened. At one point in the phone call Zimmerman lost him. Did he find him again? Did Trayvon re-engage? I don't know, and without knowing how can you make that determination.

SYG aside, I don't believe you can defend yourself until you have actually been attacked. Not a fan of preemptive strikes. Again, I don't know that's what happened, but people seem to be saying even if Trayvon did hit first it was justified because he was being followed and I just don't agree with that.

Why was Zimmerman even looking for him?

209 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:09:37pm

re: #199 Mich-again

I don't think the people at the NRA who wrote the SYG Bill for Florida anticipated that it would be used by someone to 1) start a fight. and then 2) use their gun to kill the person they started a fight with when that other person fought back.

The NRA and other gun advocates carry the assumption that anyone with a legal permit for their gun is an upstanding citizen otherwise they wouldn't have a permit. So they did not even anticipate abuse of the SYG law.

Thanks to the NRA, in my state and many others the sheriff has to issue me a CC unless he can show why I shouldn't have one. It's virtually automatic. And we have reciprocity with more restrictive states.

210 jaunte  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:10:20pm

Trayvon Martin Case Shadowed by Series of Police Missteps

An examination of the Sanford Police Department’s handling of the case shows a series of missteps — including sloppy work — and circumstances beyond its control that impeded the investigation and may make it harder to pursue a case that is already difficult enough.

211 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:11:05pm

re: #201 CuriousLurker

Well, in Florida you'd simply have been SYG, so you wouldn't have gone to prison had you survived. Presumably. After hearing about that woman who got 20 years for firing a warning shot, I'm not so sure.

Don't call yourself a freak. You're not a freak. Sheesh.

The thing is, if you ambush someone like I just talked about doing, it is extremely unlikely a judge will allow self-defense, even in an SYG state. It would most likely be called the same crime she was convicted of, Aggravated Assault. But I wouldn't get 20 years, because I would not have had a gun.

212 Talking Point Detective  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:11:58pm

re: #199 Mich-again

I don't think the people at the NRA who wrote the SYG Bill for Florida anticipated that it would be used by someone to 1) start a fight. and then 2) use their gun to kill the person they started a fight with when that other person fought back.

The NRA and other gun advocates carry the assumption that anyone with a legal permit for their gun is an upstanding citizen otherwise they wouldn't have a permit. So they did not even anticipate abuse of the SYG law.

I think that the point of the law is that some people feel that an expectation that they should do anything they can do to avoid using deadly force is an infringement on their rights.

They think it pussifies them, or something along those lines.

They feel that they should be able to use deadly force if they deem it necessary. It isn't so much that they expected that this kind of law creates the circumstances that we see in the Martin shooting - but that even though law enforcement explained that this type of situation would occur with the passage of these kinds of laws (thus explaining the widespread opposition among law enforcement), they found such possibilities unconcerning.

213 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:12:28pm

re: #209 Decatur Deb

Thanks to the NRA, in my state and many others the sheriff has to issue me a CC unless he can show why I shouldn't have one. It's virtually automatic. And we have reciprocity with more restrictive states.

Well, I agree with that first part. I'm a fan of "shall issue", as I think it prevents abuses.

214 CarleeCork  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:13:10pm

re: #20 moderatelyradicalliberal

I regret that I only have one upding.

215 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:15:37pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

And that's the end of the "what would I do", as its of no further use.

216 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:16:30pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

Well, I agree with that first part. I'm a fan of "shall issue", as I think it prevents abuses.

I don't even have to show a military or civilian qualification course. It's harder to get a license to run a jonboat.

217 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:16:33pm

re: #212 Talking Point Detective

They feel that they should be able to use deadly force if they deem it necessary.

Well hell, let's just legalize duels to settle disputes then. No cheating though..

218 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:17:30pm

re: #213 Dark_Falcon

Well, I agree with that first part. I'm a fan of "shall issue", as I think it prevents abuses.

Automatic issue prevents abuses? Hunh? How does it prevent anything?

219 Talking Point Detective  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:20:56pm

re: #217 Mich-again

Well hell, let's just legalize duels to settle disputes then. No cheating though..

Small government!

It's tyranny for the state to intervene and prevent someone from killing someone that they think might be threatening their life. This law is all a part of extremist libertarianism.

What is interesting is to see libertarians - who can't find a way to justify Zimmerman following Martin and then shooting him - trying to cleave Martin's death from SYG. SYG is the stated reason that Zimmerman wasn't arrested in the first place, and it may well be the reason why he may walk.

220 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:21:19pm

re: #218 McSpiff

Automatic issue prevents abuses? Hunh? How does it prevent anything?

It prevents an anti-gun sheriff from denying someone a permit for political reasons.

221 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:21:45pm

re: #208 ggt

Why was Zimmerman even looking for him?

He was profiling, for whatever reason.

222 McSpiff  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:22:26pm

re: #220 Dark_Falcon

It prevents an anti-gun sheriff from denying someone a permit for political reasons.

Ah yes, like all those people being denied drivers licenses for political reasons.

223 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:22:59pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

The thing is, if you ambush someone like I just talked about doing, it is extremely unlikely a judge will allow self-defense, even in an SYG state. It would most likely be called the same crime she was convicted of, Aggravated Assault. But I wouldn't get 20 years, because I would not have had a gun.

Well, SYG says:

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[22]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to say that a person can use (non-deadly) force if he simply reasonably believes it's necessary to defend himself against an imminent threat, and can use deadly force if he reasonably believes there's a imminent threat is especially dangerous and/or life threatening. IMO, one of the big effing problems with this law is "reasonably believes".

224 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:23:19pm

D_F, I just down-dinged you as a smack on the back of the head for working so hard to convince yourself you're a freak.

225 live life like you have one  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:23:28pm

re: #69 Ghost of Insanity

pretty much sums it up. no hate crime, just lots of stupidity.

226 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:23:42pm

re: #215 Dark_Falcon

And that's the end of the "what would I do", as its of no further use.

Okay, whatever. *shrugs*

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:23:56pm

re: #169 moderatelyradicalliberal

So according to this law, only people with guns have the right to stand their ground? Unarmed people don't have a right to self-defense if threatened? What about a knife or blunt object? You can shoot somebody to death, but not stab or beat them? Damn this is a stupid law. Now I know the NRA wrote it.

That seems to be what it adds up to. A man, armed with a gun, may kill someone in a public place, and claim self-defense, but a woman who fires a warning shot in her own home goes to jail, and if Trayvon threw a punch when followed too closely by a man with dubious intentions, he becomes not a defender but an attacker.

I take this especially hard, given that I was told by various people on the interwebz that this law was very, very necessary to protect women.

228 CarleeCork  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:25:43pm

re: #51 Dark_Falcon

That would likely be manslaughter. It could be murder, but it would be very difficult to rove Zimmerman had the mens rea needed to prove that crime.

Bullshit! Zimmerman was packing. Mens rea is viewed as one of the necessary elements of a crime. Zimmerman has a background of being a hothead.

229 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:26:22pm

re: #181 moderatelyradicalliberal

So the law would apply to Trayvon even if he started the fight. Being followed by a stranger at night is something most people would find threatening. I certainly would.

I can't figure out how this could NOT be covered by SYG. If you have no obligation to retreat, how would Trayvon not have been fully justified in shooting a man following him for no apparent reason?

230 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:27:01pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't figure out how this could NOT be covered by SYG. If you have no obligation to retreat, how would Trayvon not have been fully justified in shooting a man following him for no apparent reason?

Exactly.

231 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:27:53pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't figure out how this could NOT be covered by SYG. If you have no obligation to retreat, how would Trayvon not have been fully justified in shooting a man following him for no apparent reason?

Because SYG has no link whatsoever to functional morality.

232 Mich-again  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:29:15pm

re: #228 CarleeCork

Zimmerman has a background of being a hothead.

True. Arrested for resisting arrest with force, but the charges were later dropped. I'm sure daddy being a judge had nothing to do with that. The police are always dropping charges for resisting arrest with force. Such forgiving people they are..

233 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:30:01pm

re: #206 danarchy

Sure if he was attacked he has every right to defend himself. Following is not an attack. All I am saying is we don't KNOW what happened. At one point in the phone call Zimmerman lost him. Did he find him again? Did Trayvon re-engage? I don't know, and without knowing how can you make that determination.

SYG aside, I don't believe you can defend yourself until you have actually been attacked. Not a fan of preemptive strikes. Again, I don't know that's what happened, but people seem to be saying even if Trayvon did hit first it was justified because he was being followed and I just don't agree with that.

You don't know how this law is written do you? The law allows you to apply deadly force without the duty to retreat, or give up ground to an assailant if you feel under threat. It does not require that the other person assault you first. You only have to be scared or have a reasonable believe they will hurt you.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Florida

2011 Florida Statutes CHAPTER 776 JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE[22]

776.012 Use of force in defense of person.—A person is justified in using force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. However, a person is justified in the use of deadly force and does not have a duty to retreat if:

(1) He or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony; or
(2) Under those circumstances permitted pursuant to s. 776.013.

Does a kid being followed at night by a strange man have a reason to believe that the person following them may mean them imminent death or great bodily harm?

234 b_sharp  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:30:19pm

I'm Gonzo.

235 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:30:23pm

re: #228 CarleeCork

Bullshit! Zimmerman was packing. Mens rea is viewed as one of the necessary elements of a crime. Zimmerman has a background of being a hothead.

Yes, but it would argued that he shot Martin while still in the emotional heat of the fight.

236 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:30:43pm

re: #234 Ghost of Insanity

I'm Gonzo.

Me Mongo. Like hat.

237 CuriousLurker  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:31:15pm

re: #234 Ghost of Insanity

re: #236 Gus

And I'm toast. Later, lizards.

238 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:31:45pm

re: #227 SanFranciscoZionist

That seems to be what it adds up to. A man, armed with a gun, may kill someone in a public place, and claim self-defense, but a woman who fires a warning shot in her own home goes to jail, and if Trayvon threw a punch when followed too closely by a man with dubious intentions, he becomes not a defender but an attacker.

I take this especially hard, given that I was told by various people on the interwebz that this law was very, very necessary to protect women.

Not if the man survives. There's a black lady in Florida that has learned this the hard way. She would have been better off if she had killed him instead of firing a warning shot.

239 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:31:53pm

re: #237 CuriousLurker

re: #236 Gus

And I'm toast. Later, lizards.

Later you!

240 blueraven  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:33:23pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Maybe. But under that scenario, if it came to light that I'd ambushed the other guy and I survived doing so but was caught by police, I'd end up in prison. At 17, I didn't understand just how much of a freak I really am and how easy that would make it to convict me of a crime.

Are you saying you were an innocent child?

241 Talking Point Detective  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:33:30pm

re: #231 Ghost of Insanity

Because SYG has no link whatsoever to functional morality.

It comes down to whether one could construct some hypotheticals where a reasonable obligation to retreat could be an unfair burden. Rougue1 thinks that he's found some. I'm not sure that he's wrong - but I would say that there are always the potential for abuse of a law, and in the end you have to balance which kinds of laws are most likely to be abused more. The problem with libertarians is that they live in a fantasy land constructed out of a binary mentality. They can look at a law (requiring a reasonable obligation to retreat), construct hypoethtical abuses, and then dismiss it on that basis - without dealing with the very real context of alternative legal frameworks creating even greater potential for abuse.

242 CarleeCork  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:33:31pm

re: #235 Dark_Falcon

Yes, but it would argued that he shot Martin while still in the emotional heat of the fight.

Again, bullshit. Why did he continue to follow Martin after he had already called it it and been told to back off?

243 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:34:16pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't figure out how this could NOT be covered by SYG. If you have no obligation to retreat, how would Trayvon not have been fully justified in shooting a man following him for no apparent reason?

The law wasn't written to protect the dead person it was written to protect the shooter. Passing a law saying you won't go to jail if you kill someone is a great way to sell guns and gun permits.

244 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:37:22pm

re: #233 moderatelyradicalliberal

I said SYG aside, because it is such a piece of crap, it can give one person the right to legally start a fight because of the "reasonable belief" they are in danger and simultaneously give the other party the right to legally end said fight for the same reason. I think everyone agrees the law is bad(except maybe the Florida legislature).

245 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:37:31pm

re: #231 Ghost of Insanity

Because SYG has no link whatsoever to functional morality.

I can't figure out as it has any connection to...well, consistency. It seems to morph bizarrely.

246 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:37:38pm

re: #229 SanFranciscoZionist

I can't figure out how this could NOT be covered by SYG. If you have no obligation to retreat, how would Trayvon not have been fully justified in shooting a man following him for no apparent reason?

Federal law sez you gotta be 21 to legally own a handgun. Section 3 of SYG says it only applies to people not engaged in unlawful activity. Kid was screwed from the get go.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:37:59pm

re: #238 moderatelyradicalliberal

Not if the man survives. There's a black lady in Florida that has learned this the hard way. She would have been better off if she had killed him instead of firing a warning shot.

Honestly? Wish she had killed him.

248 prairiefire  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:38:35pm

re: #238 moderatelyradicalliberal

Not if the man survives. There's a black lady in Florida that has learned this the hard way. She would have been better off if she had killed him instead of firing a warning shot.

I can't believe she got 20 years for that. An awful situation.

249 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:38:47pm

re: #243 moderatelyradicalliberal

The law wasn't written to protect the dead person it was written to protect the shooter. Passing a law saying you won't go to jail if you kill someone is a great way to sell guns and gun permits.

Why do I continue to have this suspicion that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have walked away without charges if he'd done the shooting?

250 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:39:06pm

re: #248 prairiefire

I can't believe she got 20 years for that. An awful situation.

10-20-Life [Sigh.]

251 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:39:35pm

re: #249 SanFranciscoZionist

Why do I continue to have this suspicion that Trayvon Martin wouldn't have walked away without charges if he'd done the shooting?

NOTE: Even if he had been twenty-one.

252 Talking Point Detective  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:39:49pm

re: #243 moderatelyradicalliberal

The law wasn't written to protect the dead person it was written to protect the shooter. Passing a law saying you won't go to jail if you kill someone is a great way to sell guns and gun permits.

That explains the NRA's interest - and the reason why they spend money to promote these laws (and why legislators who receive that money promote these laws), but it doesn't explain their popular support from segments of the public. The answer to that lies in a abiding hatred of government; never mind that the same government-haters enjoy living in a country that has a governmental structure that raises their standard of living, and at least to some extent, allows them to not live under the kinds of oppression that some many of this planet's inhabitants have to endure.

253 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:40:50pm

re: #240 blueraven

Are you saying you were an innocent child?

No, I was a fool, and an asshole.

254 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:41:03pm

re: #246 goddamnedfrank

Federal law sez you gotta be 21 to legally own a handgun. Section 3 of SYG says it only applies to people not engaged in unlawful activity. Kid was screwed from the get go.

Check that. I'm looking at AL right now, and the sheriff can permit an 18 yr old.

[Link: www.usacarry.com...]

Then the kid can carry in a bar (though he can't drink) or visit virtually all of the Wild West and Confederacy with it.

255 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:41:11pm

re: #244 danarchy

I said SYG aside, because it is such a piece of crap, it can give one person the right to legally start a fight because of the "reasonable belief" they are in danger and simultaneously give the other party the right to legally end said fight for the same reason. I think everyone agrees the law is bad(except maybe the Florida legislature).

You can't put SYG aside. It's right in the middle of the whole situation and George Zimmerman's defense. Seems to me that the best way to fight that is point out that he may have scared the shit out of Trayvon, who then under the law had the right to stand his ground.

256 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:41:53pm

re: #242 CarleeCork

Again, bullshit. Why did he continue to follow Martin after he had already called it it and been told to back off?

To be fair Zimmerman wasn't told to back off. He was rather weakly informed that the police didn't need him to continue following the kid. The police operator's passive language choice didn't help anyone that night.

257 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:44:39pm

re: #256 goddamnedfrank

To be fair Zimmerman wasn't told to back off. He was rather weakly informed that the police didn't need him to continue following the kid. The police operator's passive language choice didn't help anyone that night.

Zimmerman was studying criminal justice, he knew that police frown upon civilians trying to accost people on their own. He also knew that the Neighborhood Watch association didn't want people going around armed either. He's not in a position to play dumb.

258 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:47:17pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Honestly? Wish she had killed him.

All of these people claiming this law is great for women are full of shit. How do you prove a man tried to rape you or beat you or kill you if he never actually laid a hand on you? This law was not written for women, it was written to sell guns to men.

259 danarchy  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:47:27pm

re: #255 moderatelyradicalliberal

You can't put SYG aside. It's right in the middle of the whole situation and George Zimmerman's defense. Seems to me that the best way to fight that is point out that he may have scared the shit out of Trayvon, who then under the law had the right to stand his ground.

I just don't see how that fight's anything. Maybe in the fight to get the law rewritten, but it is the law and is what Zimmerman will be judged by, and under the law it doesn't really matter if Trayvon was justified or not in standing his ground, it wouldn't negate Zimmerman's right to stand his.

That being said, Zimmerman could probably win this case on straight up self defense with the information we have available today, with or without SYG. Maybe that sucks, but it is the legal system.

260 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:49:52pm

re: #258 moderatelyradicalliberal

All of these people claiming this law is great for women are full of shit. How do you prove a man tried to rape you or beat you or kill you if he never actually laid a hand on you? This law was not written for women, it was written to sell guns to men.

She would have had a better chance if she'd just shot her husband. It was the firing of her gun into a wall, beyond which were her children, that got her charged.

261 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:50:35pm

re: #259 danarchy

I just don't see how that fight's anything. Maybe in the fight to get the law rewritten, but it is the law and is what Zimmerman will be judged by, and under the law it doesn't really matter if Trayvon was justified or not in standing his ground, it wouldn't negate Zimmerman's right to stand his.

That being said, Zimmerman could probably win this case on straight up self defense with the information we have available today, with or without SYG. Maybe that sucks, but it is the legal system.

You think that would be true if the dead kid was the white son of one of Zimmerman's white neighbors? This law was not written to protect the Trayvon Martins of the world, that's for damn sure.

262 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:52:10pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

She would have had a better change if she'd just shot her husband. It was the firing of her gun into a wall, beyond which were her children, that got her charged.

Given the amount of time she's about to do, I'll bet she wishes she had.

263 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:55:15pm

re: #262 moderatelyradicalliberal

Given the amount of time she's about to do, I'll bet she wishes she had.

That much is certain.

264 moderatelyradicalliberal  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:56:57pm

Good night all!

265 live life like you have one  Wed, May 16, 2012 9:59:23pm

re: #263 Dark_Falcon

my understanding is she was offered a plea bargain of 3 yrs but opted for a trial.

266 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:01:20pm

re: #265 live life like you have one

my understanding is she was offered a plea bargain of 3 yrs but opted for a trial.

True. Given that her claim of self-defense had already been denied by the judge, she was either in disbelief, or more likely was hoping the jury would nullify.

And welcome, hatchling!

267 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:04:06pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

She would have had a better chance if she'd just shot her husband. It was the firing of her gun into a wall, beyond which were her children, that got her charged.

So she missed. For this you get twenty years?

///bitter

268 live life like you have one  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:05:19pm

re: #266 Dark_Falcon

thanks, been reading for months. thought i'd maybe chime in from time to time.

269 Dark_Falcon  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:06:08pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

So she missed. For this you get twenty years?

///bitter

Mandatory sentencing requirement. The legislature passed it (it passed easily, with bipartisan support) then said they were tough on crime.

270 Digital Display  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:08:55pm

Hey Lizards! I'm all packed and ready to head out early AM. I'm just sitting here thinking, What did I forget? I really will have limited Internet access and will check in when I get the chance..
/How many days till I will go crazy sitting alone with Winston by the fireplace at night? Stay Here Winston..I'm driving to town and going to find a effen Starbucks or somebody with Internet access..

271 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:10:59pm

re: #267 SanFranciscoZionist

So she missed. For this you get twenty years?

///bitter

Could rename it the "Empty The Magazine Into The Center Of Mass" law.

272 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:11:04pm

re: #270 HoosierHoops

Hey Lizards! I'm all packed and ready to head out early AM. I'm just sitting here thinking, What did I forget? I really will have limited Internet access and will check in when I get the chance..
/How many days till I will go crazy sitting alone with Winston by the fireplace at night? Stay Here Winston..I'm driving to town and going to find a effen Starbucks or somebody with Internet access..

Do you have your survival seeds and gold?

//

273 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:11:47pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Mandatory sentencing requirement. The legislature passed it (it passed easily, with bipartisan support) then said they were tough on crime.

Figures. Meanwhile, sexual assault will get you fifteen years in Florida.

Twenty. Fucking. Years.

But fuck castle doctrine, fuck SYG, a man has a right to be in his own home, and a bitch who knows what's good for her better get the fuck out, and leave her kids behind with a man who tried to kill her...I cannot express my fury over this case.

274 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:13:28pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Figures. Meanwhile, sexual assault will get you fifteen years in Florida.

Twenty. Fucking. Years.

But fuck castle doctrine, fuck SYG, a man has a right to be in his own home, and a bitch who knows what's good for her better get the fuck out, and leave her kids behind with a man who tried to kill her...I cannot express my fury over this case.

There's still the chance that the governor will provide clemency...Oh..Florida.

275 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:13:34pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Figures. Meanwhile, sexual assault will get you fifteen years in Florida.

Twenty. Fucking. Years.

But fuck castle doctrine, fuck SYG, a man has a right to be in his own home, and a bitch who knows what's good for her better get the fuck out, and leave her kids behind with a man who tried to kill her...I cannot express my fury over this case.

Hot damn! You go SFZ.

276 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:15:22pm

re: #212 Talking Point Detective

I think that the point of the law is that some people feel that an expectation that they should do anything they can do to avoid using deadly force is an infringement on their rights.

They think it pussifies them, or something along those lines.

They feel that they should be able to use deadly force if they deem it necessary. It isn't so much that they expected that this kind of law creates the circumstances that we see in the Martin shooting - but that even though law enforcement explained that this type of situation would occur with the passage of these kinds of laws (thus explaining the widespread opposition among law enforcement), they found such possibilities unconcerning.

I think there is also a feeling that they will be judged after the fact by people who were not there at the time. 20/20 hindsight might show a better way, but at the time a person in danger has to do what they can, they don't have the luxury of time.

277 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:17:39pm

20 years. In a box.

278 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:19:03pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

She would have had a better chance if she'd just shot her husband. It was the firing of her gun into a wall, beyond which were her children, that got her charged.

Always point the gun in a safe direction . . .

279 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:20:07pm

re: #274 Decatur Deb

There's still the chance that the governor will provide clemency...Oh..Florida.

Yeah, Governor urine fetish is will get right on that immediately after he's done pee testing everyone everywhere.

280 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:20:46pm

re: #273 SanFranciscoZionist

Figures. Meanwhile, sexual assault will get you fifteen years in Florida.

Twenty. Fucking. Years.

But fuck castle doctrine, fuck SYG, a man has a right to be in his own home, and a bitch who knows what's good for her better get the fuck out, and leave her kids behind with a man who tried to kill her...I cannot express my fury over this case.

Welcome to my Whacko Republican Man Hating World.

Violence Against Women Act --yeah, right. That would go against the G-d directed Natural Order of Things . . . .

/gah

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:22:05pm

re: #275 Gus

Hot damn! You go SFZ.

I am mighty in my wrath, occasionally.

282 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:24:28pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

I am mighty in my wrath, occasionally.

Sometimes you gotta put on that campaign hat.

283 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:25:20pm

Just finished listening to William Shirer's synopsis of Hegel.

I don't think he liked Hegel very much.

Nietzche even less.

284 darthstar  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:26:48pm

re: #253 Dark_Falcon

No, I was a fool, and an asshole.

You shouldn't speak of yourself in the past tense like that. :)

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:28:12pm

re: #284 darthstar

You shouldn't speak of yourself in the past tense like that. :)

It's if he starts speaking of himself in the plural that we should worry.

286 Digital Display  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:28:56pm

So I think the State of Florida started going downhill (pun intended) right around Bush vs. Gore. The Nation watched aghast at Florida counting ballots..It has gone down since then with the Casey Anthony trial being the crown jewel of the Justice system..

287 darthstar  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:29:08pm

Man...what a depressing ballgame. Cardinals won, it was foggy and cold. The best part, however, was getting to sit with my wife's best friend from college and her wife. Love those two women...don't get to see enough of them.

288 freetoken  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:29:11pm

Someone recently posted a Page about the decline in Presidential pardons.

Reading today's Page on the execution of the innocent, and the continued discussion over this woman in Florida who is getting 20 years for doing something that could reasonably be argued as self-defense, I'm prompted to simply call President Obama a coward for not being willing to stand up and use his authority to pardon and commute sentences.

Obama is following the precedent of his immediate predecessors. Presidents are afraid of confronting the public on the collective fears that are so easily manipulated by the vote-mongers.

That is also why the "War on Drugs" drags on even though so many people want it to stop.

Presidents are afraid to stick their neck out for the convicted, even those wrongly convicted.

289 goddamnedfrank  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:29:31pm

re: #284 darthstar

You shouldn't speak of yourself in the past tense like that. :)

That's a quality burn, just enough subtle dickishness.

290 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:31:45pm

re: #283 ggt

Just finished listening to William Shirer's synopsis of Hegel.

I don't think he liked Hegel very much.

Nietzche even less.

Well considering Nietzche is sometimes said to be a huge influnce on Nazi ideology that doesn't come as much shock to me. I don't know too much about Shirer the man. I know about his books of course but don't know too much about him himself.

291 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:31:53pm

re: #286 HoosierHoops

So I think the State of Florida started going downhill (pun intended) right around Bush vs. Gore. The Nation watched aghast at Florida counting ballots..It has gone down since then with the Casey Anthony trial being the crown jewel of the Justice system..

Bush vs. Gore? That was actually the broccoli decision. ;)

292 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:32:22pm

re: #285 SanFranciscoZionist

It's if he starts speaking of himself in the plural that we should worry.

Or starts posting to himself --then we might have to take action.

293 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:34:00pm

re: #290 HappyWarrior

Well considering Nietzche is sometimes said to be a huge influnce on Nazi ideology that doesn't come as much shock to me. I don't know too much about Shirer the man. I know about his books of course but don't know too much about him himself.

He was there during the Rise and Fall and had access to documents seized after the war. So he has a unique if not dated perspective. Still I think it is the gold standard in reference material for the Third Reich.

Refers to homosexuals and degenerates --etc.

294 Decatur Deb  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:35:30pm

re: #288 freetoken

Someone recently posted a Page about the decline in Presidential pardons.

Reading today's Page on the execution of the innocent, and the continued discussion over this woman in Florida who is getting 20 years for doing something that could reasonably be argued as self-defense, I'm prompted to simply call President Obama a coward for not being willing to stand up and use his authority to pardon and commute sentences.

Obama is following the precedent of his immediate predecessors. Presidents are afraid of confronting the public on the collective fears that are so easily manipulated by the vote-mongers.

That is also why the "War on Drugs" drags on even though so many people want it to stop.

Presidents are afraid to stick their neck out for the convicted, even those wrongly convicted.

I believe you've met Mr. Horton.

Image: WillieHorton_1_540x405.jpg

295 HappyWarrior  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:37:14pm

re: #293 ggt

He was there during the Rise and Fall and had access to documents seized after the war. So he has a unique if not dated perspective. Still I think it is the gold standard in reference material for the Third Reich.

Refers to homosexuals and degenerates --etc.

Right. Not surprised the Nazis were anti gay. Revisionists like to bring up Rohm and the SA but conveniently leave out the fact that Nazi Germany actively persecuted homosexuals. Can you imagine being witness to the rise of something like Nazi Germany? There's a new book out by Erik Larson about the man who was the first American ambassador to Nazi Germany. He actually had a country home not far from where I live.

296 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:44:42pm
297 darthstar  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:48:45pm

re: #292 ggt

Or starts posting to himself --then we might have to take action.

Okay, but if he starts trolling himself I vote we sit back and enjoy the show.

298 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 10:50:42pm

re: #297 darthstar

Okay, but if he starts trolling himself I vote we sit back and enjoy the show.

I'll bring the garlic.

will he turn himself while on the spit?

299 freetoken  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:09:33pm

Now, here is a revelatory headline:

Study: Students can have fun without booze

The Onion doesn't even need headline writers anymore - they can just copy wire stories.

300 freetoken  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:10:01pm

In other news: Francisco Franco is still dead.

301 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:11:46pm

re: #299 freetoken

Now, here is a revelatory headline:

Study: Students can have fun without booze

The Onion doesn't even need headline writers anymore - they can just copy wire stories.

Now, what would they have to talk about in rehab after college?

303 Gus  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:23:14pm
304 Gretchen G.Tiger  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:39:04pm

Nytol!

305 Flavia  Wed, May 16, 2012 11:57:25pm

Here's the part that interests me:

a medical report on Martin’s alleged killer, 28-year-old George Zimmerman, prepared by his personal physician the day after Martin’s shooting in Sanford, Fla., on Feb. 26, found that the Neighborhood Watch volunteer suffered a likely broken nose, swelling, two black eyes and cuts to the scalp

Am I the only person who has seen the video of them bringing Zimmerman in, initially? The video where he looked perfectly fine??? I have also seen the photo of the "cuts to the scalp" - two little dings that would be unnoticeable. save that scalps tend to bleed far more profusely than anyone would think.

I know I sound like a rank conspiracy theorist, but I could totally see him trying to slam his own head into the concrete after he shot this kid, in a blind panic as to somehow prove "self defense".

306 researchok  Thu, May 17, 2012 1:14:53am

Morning, all

307 AK-47%  Thu, May 17, 2012 1:36:53am

Conclusive proof that Martin pummeled Zimmerman mercilessly and for no good reason. Case closed, move on folks, nothing else to see here...


/

308 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 1:48:00am

Concluding our review of the highlights of Sviridov's Hymns and Prayers, here is no. 21:

309 AK-47%  Thu, May 17, 2012 1:56:05am

re: #299 freetoken

Now, here is a revelatory headline:

Study: Students can have fun without booze

The Onion doesn't even need headline writers anymore - they can just copy wire stories.

It has become nearly impossible to distinguish betwen Onion headlines and real news, there have been plenty of examples of people taking them at face value, like the outrage over their "Multimillion-dollar abortionplex." headline.

310 researchok  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:49:09am

re: #308 freetoken

Damn- will not play for me.

Second day in a row

311 wheat-dogg  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:50:24am

re: #128 Mich-again

Didn't the Spanish get here first?

312 freetoken  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:56:38am

re: #310 researchok

You can always inspect the element and copy the url directly.

313 wheat-dogg  Thu, May 17, 2012 3:15:53am

I should read the entire thread before I post Captain Obvious remarks. I forgot about St. Augustine and was only remembering New Mexico. Still, the Pilgrims were comparative latecomers to North America. Also, they weren't brown (I know, neither were the Spanish, but we're talking Mitt here), and they spoke English -- sorta. He just needs some qualifiers on that statement of his.

314 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:07:03am

re: #165 Decatur Deb

Think so, ask one of our Mormon lizards.

It's actually complicated. From a secular perspective Joseph Smith wrote the BoM and we know he also claimed that America's natives are descendants of a few Jewish groups. So we know that the BoM was intended to say this.

We also know this has been a traditional Mormon folk belief for a long time, and I suppose it still is.

The official view, however, is different. Is it a doctrine? Certainly not at the current time. It arguably was one though during the early days.

Since the advent of DNA studies, as well as numerous other lines of evidence (chiefly archeological), the Mormon apologists (I'm using the term neutrally) began "shrinking" the role of Jews in genealogy of natives, arguing that positing pre-existing tribes does not contradict the BoM. They also invented various "limited geography" theories to deal with the problems.

If anyone is familiar with the methods of Biblical inerrantists, that's basically also how the Mormon apologists (FARMS et al.) operate.

Still, an average Mormon is unlikely to know about these efforts - or at least this was so until recently. For numerous converts throughout the Americas it becomes an existential shock to learn the facts, because so many of them actually thought they were literal descendants of Lamanites.

There are numerous books here.

315 Dark_Falcon  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:16:25am

Sorry I dropped off last night. The drop off was literal, as I had a narcoleptic episode. Have good day today and I'll be back tonight.

316 Dire Straits  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:34:30am

Narcoleptic - not good,especially if you're driving.

317 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:45:41am

Morning folks. Everyone see this from the other FL SYG case that's been mentioned recently?:

'Stand your ground' claim by Trevor Dooley in fatal park shooting rejected by judge
[Link: www.tampabay.com...]

TAMPA — A neighbor who fatally shot a 41-year-old father on a basketball court after they argued over a skateboarder is not entitled to immunity under Florida's "stand your ground" law, a judge has ruled.

When Trevor Dooley, then 69, shot his Valrico neighbor David James in the chest in 2010, "There was no reasonable belief that deadly force was required," Hillsborough Circuit Judge Ashley Moody wrote in her order released Monday.

Although James was younger and bigger than Dooley, the judge said, testimony showed James was trying only to get Dooley's gun away.

"The court finds that Mr. James was justified in grabbing (Dooley) because defendant had reached for and pulled out a gun to confront Mr. James," Moody wrote.

318 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:48:48am

re: #314 May Day! May Day!

Sergey, Have you seen this?

An Anatomy of a Wrongful Execution
[Link: www3.law.columbia.edu...]

319 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Thu, May 17, 2012 4:50:55am

re: #318 RogueOne

Sergey, Have you seen this?

An Anatomy of a Wrongful Execution
[Link: www3.law.columbia.edu...]

Sure. Been wondering as to your take. AFAIC it's a great illustration that there shouldn't be DP ever.

But I have to run now.

320 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:06:32am

Morning Lizardim. Tut, tut, looks like rain here in the wild north country. What's new among the Lizardim today?

321 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:07:27am

Man Candles: Scent not of a woman
[Link: www.timesunion.com...]

322 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:09:10am

re: #321 Tommy's cone of shame

I'd like the one that smells like cut grass. That would be great during the winter months.

323 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:13:31am

Worst internship ever....

Stimulus Money Went to Study Erectile Dysfunction In Obese Men
[Link: www.nbcbayarea.com...]

The NBC Investigative Unit has raised questions about two grants totaling nearly $1.5 million dollars distributed to the University of California San Francisco. The money was part of the federal stimulus program and went to studies into the erectile dysfunction of overweight middle aged men and the accurate reporting of someone's sexual history.

324 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:21:27am

Judge halts genocide trial of 'Butcher of Bosnia' Mladic over evidence errors

The judge in Ratko Mladic's war crimes trial on Thursday indefinitely delayed the presentation of evidence due to "errors" by prosecutors in disclosing evidence to defense lawyers — a ruling that throws the future of the trial into question.

Presiding judge Alphons Orie said he was delaying the Yugoslav war crimes tribunal case due to "significant disclosure errors" by prosecutors, who are obliged to share all their evidence with Mladic's defense team.

He said judges are still analyzing the "scope and full impact" of the error and aim to establish a new starting date "as soon as possible." The presentation of evidence was supposed to begin later this month.

Prosecutors already had admitted the errors and did not object to the delay. Mladic's attorney has asked for a six-month delay.

325 jamesfirecat  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:25:53am

re: #323 RogueOne

Worst internship ever...

Stimulus Money Went to Study Erectile Dysfunction In Obese Men
[Link: www.nbcbayarea.com...]

Maybe so, but there's more than one way to stimulate!

I'll see myself out....

326 Dustoff848  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:51:09am

I was in my share of fights in my younger years and your knuckles pretty much only get cut or bloodied if you strike against something sharp like teeth. Pounding someone in the face or ribs is not necessarily going to lead to cuts on the knuckles. That being said I'm really not sure just how relavent the cuts or lack thereof is to either side of the discussion.

327 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 5:52:15am

This Exists: Chris Christie And Cory Booker Team Up For Jersey Rivalry Comedy Sketch
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]

“I don’t want another question about flooding, I don’t want any more questions about being vice president, and these kids! These kids with all these questions! I can’t take it anymore,” an exasperated Gov. Christie tells the camera as his aides suggest yet another town hall meeting. He decides to come up with a better idea, and heads to Newark from Trenton.

When he shows up in Newark and asks if he can help with any trapped people, “fires or problems or anything,” but is shooed away while the Mayor receives a venerable to-do list of disasters. Among the good deeds on Booker’s list today? Putting out a fire, shoveling snow, saving a falling baby and even making a critical guitar donation to a crippled Bruce Springsteen concert. How could Christie compete?

Booker!

328 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:25:43am

re: #326 Dustoff848

I was in my share of fights in my younger years and your knuckles pretty much only get cut or bloodied if you strike against something sharp like teeth.

That's not true. If you hit the edge of a bone-- the jaw, the cheekbone, the temple-- you'll most likely split your knuckles.

That being said I'm really not sure just how relavent the cuts or lack thereof is to either side of the discussion.

Agreed.

329 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:27:43am

Hell, if a person has got untoughened skin, you can split your knuckles punching the heavy bag. That's part of why we tape up.

330 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:33:11am

re: #326 Dustoff848

I was in my share of fights in my younger years

Me too, and if you didn't leave powder burns self-defense claims didn't stand a snowball's chance in hell.

331 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:37:44am

La, la, la. Got up too early. Damn spam text messaging. Oh look! Already a stupid rep:

332 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:44:08am

Heh...he's got a point...

333 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:48:57am

Oh S.C...wtf:
South Carolina Democrat Labels Haley “Sikh Jesus”
[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

The political director of South Carolina's Senate Democratic Caucus labeled Nikki Haley the "Sikh Jesus" after she intervened to aid the Republican primary challenger of a Republican State Senator who called her a "[bigoted word]."

Political Director Phil Bailey complained Wednesday night of the South Carolina Republican Party's "unlawful ruling" to allow a Haley ally on the ballot against State Senator Jake Knotts, video of whose legendary 2010 rant was posted on BuzzFeed yesterday.

In two tweets, he referred to Haley — a convert to the Methodist faith whose parents were born in India — as the "Sikh Jesus."

In Knotts' rant, he warned heatedly of voters' reaction on learning "that her daddy wears a turban around Lexington and her mommy has a ruby between her head and she is a Sheikh (sic) and trying to be a Methodist."

334 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:51:29am

hmm, just noticed there's an autoedit [bigoted word]. Didn't know that before. For those wondering what the republican called her it starts with....NM. I assume the edit is there for a reason so you'll have to go to buzzfeed to see.

Is there a master list of the words that get edited out?

335 lawhawk  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:55:39am

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. It's a glorious day and it beats the rainy conditions we've had the past few days (though we need it badly because we're still under the historical averages for precip since last year).

So, what could possibly piss me off this morning? Well, how about another steaming helping of birtherism courtesy of the GOP. This time its Rep. Mike Coffman from Colorado who threw ugly with his speech at a GOP fundraiser a few days ago:

Rep. Mike Coffman of Colorado is under fire for a speech he delivered at a recent fundraiser, in which he insisted the President isn't an American.

After speaking about the floundering economy, Coffman declared to a crowd in Elbert County on May 12, "I don't know whether Barack Obama was born in the United States of America. I don't know that. But I do know this, that in his heart, he's not an American. He's just not an American."

The speech was first reported by NBC affiliate 9News.

The former Secretary of State of Colorado and lawmaker — who has been serving in Congress since 2009 — issued a statement saying he was sorry on Wednesday night.

"I apologize,” he said. “I have confidence in President Obama's citizenship and legitimacy as President of the United States.”

However, he added, “I don't believe the President shares my belief in American Exceptionalism. His policies reflect a philosophy that America is but one nation among many equals."

It's a BS apology; why say it in the first place if he didn't believe it. And then throws in the nonsense about American exceptionalism and how he views the US versus other countries in the world.

Curiously, the GOP has no problem with one set of rights for some Americans, but an entirely different set of rights for other Americans (yes - that's gay rights and gay marriage looking right back atcha).

336 lawhawk  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:56:28am
337 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 6:59:36am

Morning humor

And how are you?

338 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:03:14am
339 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:03:41am

re: #333 RogueOne

Nothing a little apology can't fix...and an understanding that it was a stupid fucking thing to say.

340 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:04:01am

re: #335 lawhawk

Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. It's a glorious day and it beats the rainy conditions we've had the past few days (though we need it badly because we're still under the historical averages for precip since last year).

So, what could possibly piss me off this morning? Well, how about another steaming helping of birtherism courtesy of the GOP. This time its Rep. Mike Coffman from Colorado who threw ugly with his speech at a GOP fundraiser a few days ago:

It's a BS apology; why say it in the first place if he didn't believe it. And then throws in the nonsense about American exceptionalism and how he views the US versus other countries in the world.

Curiously, the GOP has no problem with one set of rights for some Americans, but an entirely different set of rights for other Americans (yes - that's gay rights and gay marriage looking right back atcha).

Some Animals are more Equal than Others?

341 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:05:03am

re: #339 darthstar

What struck me as amusing is she's getting it from people in both parties. SC hates Indians...unless they're working at 7-11...

342 dragonfire1981  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:07:53am

Let the right wing freakout commence!

Minority births surpass white births for first time ever

343 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:08:11am

re: #75 Killgore Trout

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to. It seems to me that the partisan angles are probably missing the point. There is a probelm but the political/ideological derpers are all missing the problem in a lame attempt to advance unrelated agendas.

I'm a little late to this party, and I apologize for dead thread sitting. That said: seriously, Killgore? No saints or demons in this situation?

If you're referring specifically to Martin and Zimmerman, you're a fucking idiot. Zimmerman was told by the police not to confront/follow Martin, as well as being armed.

What really pisses me off with people like you is pulling the Magical Balance Fairy out of your goddamned ass to make yourselves feel better.

There's a dead kid in Florida because some paranoid idiot with Charles Bronson fantasies lost his shit because "one of those people" was in the neighborhood. But, no, in your special vintage of reality everyone's to blame in this situation.

You'd be right at home on Fox News as a analyst. This kind of glossing over of reality is right up their alley.

344 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:08:43am

re: #341 RogueOne

What struck me as amusing is she's getting it from people in both parties. SC hates Indians...unless they're working at 7-11...

It's a bipartisan effort.

345 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:09:28am

re: #341 RogueOne

What struck me as amusing is she's getting it from people in both parties. SC hates Indians...unless they're working at 7-11...

Joe bought something for you

Image: free-slurpee.jpg
//

346 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:09:59am

He apologizes because he got hammered as a nutcase over it. They always "know" that the president is somehow not American. The guy attacking Haley over her Indian/Sikh heritage is a dipshit too.

347 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:10:08am

re: #342 dragonfire1981

Let the right wing freakout commence!

Minority births surpass white births for first time ever

Yep, see more push against Individual Choice in Motherhood.

We are going to be extinct!

Then we'll see a push to make inter-marriage illegal between the races once these bigots realize that white women are still having babies --just not always with white men.

gah!

348 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:10:59am

re: #342 dragonfire1981

Let the right wing freakout commence!

Minority births surpass white births for first time ever

I expect the nuts at VDare to be on the case about it. Poor Whitey's going extinct.

349 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:21am

re: #344 darthstar

It's a bipartisan effort.

It's nice to see people coming together!

Always Look on the Bright Side of Life

350 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:27am

re: #343 mattand

I'm a little late to this party, and I apologize for dead thread sitting. That said: seriously, Killgore? No saints or demons in this situation?

If you're referring specifically to Martin and Zimmerman, you're a fucking idiot. Zimmerman was told by the police not to confront/follow Martin, as well as being armed.

What really pisses me off with people like you is pulling the Magical Balance Fairy out of your goddamned ass to make yourselves feel better.

There's a dead kid in Florida because some paranoid idiot with Charles Bronson fantasies lost his shit because "one of those people" was in the neighborhood. But, no, everyone's to blame in this situation.

You'd be right at home on Fox News as a analyst. This kind of glossing over of reality is right up their alley.

IIRC, Zimmerman was told by 911, "We don't need you to do that".

It was not a direct order from a Law Enforcement Office.

I agree with you in general tho,

Why did he get out of the truck?

351 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:11:58am

re: #343 mattand

Zimmerman was told by the police not to confront/follow Martin,

No,, actually, what he was told was "we don't need you to do that"

And it was by a dispatcher, not an officer

352 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:12am

re: #350 ggt

I'm such a slow typer!!!!

353 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:16am

re: #351 sattv4u2

Zimmerman was told by the police not to confront/follow Martin,

No,, actually, what he was told was "we don't need you to do that"

And it was by a dispatcher, not an officer

GMTA!

Morning satt!

354 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:32am

re: #353 ggt

GMTA!

Ours too!!
//

355 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:12:54am

He still should have listened to the dispatcher. Not saying that automatically makes his guilty but it damn sure makes me question his judgment and common sense.

356 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:13:48am

re: #355 HappyWarrior

He still should have listened to the dispatcher. Not saying that automatically makes his guilty but it damn sure makes me question his judgment and common sense.

and his motive.

357 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:51am

re: #356 ggt

and his motive.

Yep.

358 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:14:59am

re: #343 mattand

and BTW ,, why not have an adult conversation with Kilgore about it, instead of the you're a fucking idiot. and the people like you and You'd be right at home on Fox News as a analyst

Did Kilgore swear at you? Call you names? Insult you?

No,, so keep it civil

359 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:15:24am
360 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:15:30am

re: #355 HappyWarrior

He still should have listened to the dispatcher. Not saying that automatically makes his guilty but it damn sure makes me question his judgment and common sense.

Absolutely

361 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:10am

Have I ever told you how much I hate mornings?

362 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:36am

re: #361 ggt

Have I ever told you how much I hate mornings?

Shouldn't that be a conversation you have with mornings?

363 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:17:46am

re: #359 darthstar

[Embedded content]

I'm waiting for him to dress up as a furry and claim that he was an animal allowed to register to vote.

364 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:19:02am

re: #362 sattv4u2

Shouldn't that be a conversation you have with mornings?

I have, but I can't seem to make it understand.

should I make a t-shirt for it?

365 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:19:40am

re: #358 sattv4u2

and BTW ,, why not have an adult conversation with Kilgore about it, instead of the you're a fucking idiot. and the people like you and You'd be right at home on Fox News as a analyst

Did Kilgore swear at you? Call you names? Insult you?

No,, so keep it civil

Meh, thanks for the defense but it's pretty much a waste of time.

366 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:19:51am

re: #364 ggt

I have, but I can't seem to make it understand.

should I make a t-shirt for it?

BAD MORNING

GOOD NIGHT.

367 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:20:27am

re: #364 ggt

I have, but I can't seem to make it understand.

should I make a t-shirt for it?

Image: i_hate_mornings_tshirt-p235800732971573750zvkzc_400.jpg

Image: mornings.jpg

368 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:21:08am

re: #367 sattv4u2

Image: i_hate_mornings_tshirt-p235800732971573750zvkzc_400.jpg

Image: mornings.jpg

eh, I'd probably use a picture of one of my dogs.

369 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:21:31am

Well, looks like chrome is permanently screwed up for me. Unistalled, rebooted, even cancelled my google account and started a fresh one. It still always ingores my homepage and opens to the "new tab" page. Too annoying. I guess I'm back to firefox for now.

370 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:21:49am

re: #368 ggt

eh, I'd probably use a picture of one of my dogs.

Image: i_hate_mornings_card-p137984185445405101z857a_400.jpg

371 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:22:06am

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Well, looks like chrome is permanently screwed up for me. Unistalled, rebooted, even cancelled my google account and started a fresh one. It still always ingores my homepage and opens to the "new tab" page. Too annoying. I guess I'm back to firefox for now.

Agh makes me glad I haven't switched yet. Sorry for your troubles though.

372 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:22:28am

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Well, looks like chrome is permanently screwed up for me. Unistalled, rebooted, even cancelled my google account and started a fresh one. It still always ingores my homepage and opens to the "new tab" page. Too annoying. I guess I'm back to firefox for now.

Strange, I've had less problems with Chrome.

373 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:23:25am

And they're all better than IE or if you want to go old school, Netscape.

374 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:23:37am

re: #372 ggt

Strange, I've had less problems with Chrome.

I was pretty happy with it until yesterday. It was a little crashy but it worked pretty well. I'll give it a try again in the future.

375 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:23:55am

Storyboard: ‘Next’

The following is a storyboard for a five-minute film obtained by The New York Times. The film, titled “Next,” was proposed by Strategic Perception, a political public relations firm founded by Fred Davis. The storyboard provides a rough outline for a film highly critical of President Obama’s background and policies. It is awaiting approval from Joe Ricketts and the “super PAC” he finances.

You gotta go to the link to get the full effect. No chit, right?

376 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:27:17am

The Best Senior Yearbook Page Ever
These eight beautiful young ladies Win high school.
[Link: www.buzzfeed.com...]

Image: enhanced-buzz-wide-22923-1337258123-7.jpg

377 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:30:00am

The horrors of hate speech laws...
Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook

Five men and a 15-year-old youth have been arrested in East Renfrewshire and Glasgow after anti-Semitic remarks were posted on social network site Facebook.

Almost 50 police officers raided seven addresses after complaints from members of the Jewish community in Giffnock.

It followed a number of offensive posts on a page entitled: "Welcome to Israel, only kidding you're in Giffnock."

The six people arrested were charged with a breach of the peace with religious and racial aggravations.

378 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:33:23am

re: #377 Killgore Trout

The horrors of hate speech laws...
Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook

Almost 50 police officers raided seven addresses after complaints from members of the Jewish community in Giffnock.

50? That's incredible. On the bright side, no one got pepper-sprayed and no shots were fired so no one is looking for a new dog this morning.....

Did you see the story last week that said german police fired a total of 85 bullets last year? Slackers.

379 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:34:48am

re: #377 Killgore Trout

The horrors of hate speech laws...
Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook

Two things:
50 officers to arrest people for hate speech violations. Wow.
I don't like hate speech laws in the first place and I'm glad we don't have them here.

380 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:37:36am

re: #377 Killgore Trout

The horrors of hate speech laws...
Arrests over anti-Semitic remarks on Facebook

About that school in Toronto...

UPDATED: Board suspends Toronto Islamic school’s operating permit after row over anti-Jewish curriculum

TORONTO — An Islamic school that had been using teaching materials that disparaged Jews and encouraged boys to keep fit for jihad has lost its license to use Toronto District School Board property.

The board suspended a permit issued to the Islamic Shia Study Centre, which operated the East End Madrassah out of a Toronto high school until an outcry last week over the content of its curriculum booklets.

“The Islamic Shia Study Centre will not be able to permit TDSB property until the police investigation is complete and they are able to demonstrate that they comply with board policies and procedures,” Ryan Bird, a TDSB spokesman, said Wednesday.

381 bratwurst  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:40:53am

A group of high-profile Republican strategists is working with a conservative billionaire on a proposal to mount one of the most provocative campaigns of the “super PAC” era and attack President Obama in ways that Republicans have so far shied away from.

Timed to upend the Democratic National Convention in September, the plan would “do exactly what John McCain would not let us do,” the strategists wrote.

382 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:41:11am
Can Coffee Help You Live Longer? We Really Want To Know
Until scientists do more research, Freedman doesn't recommend anyone start drinking coffee, or drink more coffee. But at the very least the new findings, he said, provide a little reassurance that coffee lovers aren't hurting themselves by indulging in a couple of cappuccinos or lattes every day.

Wait? Nah, I think I'm a believer.

383 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:42:08am

re: #381 bratwurst

A group of high-profile Republican strategists is working with a conservative billionaire on a proposal to mount one of the most provocative campaigns of the “super PAC” era and attack President Obama in ways that Republicans have so far shied away from.

Timed to upend the Democratic National Convention in September, the plan would “do exactly what John McCain would not let us do,” the strategists wrote.

Hopefully it bites them in the ass. I'm forgetting what attacks McCain refused to permit though.

384 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:42:27am

re: #379 HappyWarrior

Seems a bit patchy though. The EDL doesn't get rounded up for their horseshit, especially after one of their sympathizers did one of the worst terror attacks in European History, and the worst terror attack in history in terms of demographic losses.

I just saw the thing on Mladic. Pisses me off so much. Especially as Serbia is going back in the direction they were in the 90's if the elections are to be believed. There is something chronically wrong with Serbia. How can a group of people commit genocide 3 times in a century, then start acting like they should do it again?

385 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:44:40am

re: #381 bratwurst

A group of high-profile Republican strategists is working with a conservative billionaire on a proposal to mount one of the most provocative campaigns of the “super PAC” era and attack President Obama in ways that Republicans have so far shied away from.

Timed to upend the Democratic National Convention in September, the plan would “do exactly what John McCain would not let us do,” the strategists wrote.

Scare the White People Strategy?

386 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:45:45am

re: #379 HappyWarrior

Two things:
50 officers to arrest people for hate speech violations. Wow.
I don't like hate speech laws in the first place and I'm glad we don't have them here.

I'm kind of thinking there might be more to the story. Maybe they were planing something or threatening violence. It seems an absurd overreaction to shitty postings on the internet.

387 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:46:23am

re: #384 ProGunLiberal

Seems a bit patchy though. The EDL doesn't get rounded up for their horseshit, especially after one of their sympathizers did one of the worst terror attacks in European History, and the worst terror attack in history in terms of demographic losses.

I just saw the thing on Mladic. Pisses me off so much. Especially as Serbia is going back in the direction they were in the 90's if the elections are to be believed. There is something chronically wrong with Serbia. How can a group of people commit genocide 3 times in a century, then start acting like they should do it again?

I know. I just don't like arresting people for stuff they say by and large. Yeah? The thing about Mladic doing the slit throat gesture to the victims. By the way third time? Am I missing something? Anyhow the whole region is just tragic.

388 bratwurst  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:46:47am
389 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:47:10am

re: #380 NJDhockeyfan

About that school in Toronto...

UPDATED: Board suspends Toronto Islamic school’s operating permit after row over anti-Jewish curriculum

Good. That seems reasonable.

390 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:47:10am

re: #351 sattv4u2

Zimmerman was told by the police not to confront/follow Martin,

No,, actually, what he was told was "we don't need you to do that"

And it was by a dispatcher, not an officer

I did get that wrong. However, it doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman was told to stay away from Martin.

Nor does it change the fact that if Zimmerman had an ounce of common sense he wouldn't have murdered a high school kid.

Nor does it change the fact that KT is pulling a Magical Balance Fairy where it doesn't belong.

If that's the best you got, I'm not impressed.

391 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:47:15am

re: #386 Killgore Trout

I'm kind of thinking there might be more to the story. Maybe they were planing something or threatening violence. It seems an absurd overreaction to shitty postings on the internet.

You're probably right because yeah on the surface it seems to be precisely that. If they were planning something or threatening violence, then I don't blame the police at all.

392 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:50:26am

re: #383 HappyWarrior

Hopefully it bites them in the ass. I'm forgetting what attacks McCain refused to permit though.

He had one moment in the sun, when he called out the crazy "Arab" lady. Don't know if he'd do it again.

If the TPGOP hardcore does go for a religion-based attack, either it blows up or it triggers a subtle, well-engineered, anti-Mormon campaign from the Dems. That would be ugly and probably effective.

393 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:52:27am

re: #358 sattv4u2

and BTW ,, why not have an adult conversation with Kilgore about it, instead of the you're a fucking idiot. and the people like you and You'd be right at home on Fox News as a analyst

Did Kilgore swear at you? Call you names? Insult you?

No,, so keep it civil

Sorry you've got such delicate ears, but there's times where civil doesn't cut it.

When I see someone try to spread the blame to a dead kid who was going home after buying candy, well, fuck being "civil".

It was stupid assertion on KT's part. And I'm angry that people are looking past a dead child so they can pretend that Martin somehow was "asking" for it.

Don't like my posts? Ignore me.

394 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:52:48am

re: #392 Decatur Deb

He had one moment in the sun, when he called out the crazy "Arab" lady. Don't know if he'd do it again.

If the TPGOP hardcore does go for a religion-based attack, either it blows up or it triggers a subtle, well-engineered, anti-Mormon campaign from the Dems. That would be ugly and probably effective.

I think it will blow up. I can't see the Dems going anti-Mormon given their Senate majority leader is Mormon. Now this said, I think that is the reaction they're hoping for. Hatch kind of let it slip out when he said that the Democrats would attack Romney's religion. Haven't seen that yet.

395 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:55:15am

re: #394 HappyWarrior

I think it will blow up. I can't see the Dems going anti-Mormon given their Senate majority leader is Mormon.

It would be a slow knife, and Reid is in his last term. Dem politics is not frisbee golf.

396 dragonfire1981  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:57:59am

re: #381 bratwurst

A group of high-profile Republican strategists is working with a conservative billionaire on a proposal to mount one of the most provocative campaigns of the “super PAC” era and attack President Obama in ways that Republicans have so far shied away from.

Timed to upend the Democratic National Convention in September, the plan would “do exactly what John McCain would not let us do,” the strategists wrote.

The plan, which is awaiting approval, calls for running commercials linking Mr. Obama to incendiary comments by his former spiritual adviser, the Rev. Jeremiah A. Wright Jr., whose race-related sermons made him a highly charged figure in the 2008 campaign.

“The world is about to see Jeremiah Wright and understand his influence on Barack Obama for the first time in a big, attention-arresting way,” says the proposal, which was overseen by Fred Davis and commissioned by Joe Ricketts, the founder of the brokerage firm TD Ameritrade. Mr. Ricketts is increasingly putting his fortune to work in conservative politics.

The $10 million plan, one of several being studied by Mr. Ricketts, includes preparations for how to respond to the charges of race-baiting it envisions if it highlights Mr. Obama’s former ties to Mr. Wright, who espouses what is known as “black liberation theology.”

All that time and money and this is the BEST they could do? Recycle criticisms of Obama's former pastor that were aired ad nauseam in 2008?

397 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:58:20am

re: #390 mattand

I did get that wrong. However, it doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman was told to stay away from Martin.

And you got it wrong again.
He was NOT "told to stay away from Martin"

What was stated, was "we don't need you to do that"

If that's the best you got, I'm not impressed.

I only save the best for those that are deserving!
(see , two can play this snotty game ,, but in the end, where does that leave us?)

398 dragonfire1981  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:59:21am

Oh and you just gotta love the class playbook cover:

Image: Donate-articleLarge.jpg

399 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 7:59:28am

re: #396 dragonfire1981

All that time and money and this is the BEST they could do? Recycle criticisms of Obama's former pastor that were aired ad nauseam in 2008?

Desperation does that. Honestly if the Dems do hit back on the religion part, I would expect them to bring up LDS's not so pleasant history in regards to black people.

400 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:00:02am

re: #393 mattand

someone try to spread the blame to a dead kid who was going home after buying candy

Where di Kilgore "blame" Martin?

Don't like my posts? Ignore me.

Physician, heal thyself

401 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:00:13am

To Stop His Spending for good and bring our own spender in!

402 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:01:04am

re: #396 dragonfire1981

All that time and money and this is the BEST they could do? Recycle criticisms of Obama's former pastor that were aired ad nauseam in 2008?

I agree, I haven't seen any evidence that Obama plans on following any extreme doctrine in the last 4 years.

403 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:30am

re: #399 HappyWarrior

Desperation does that. Honestly if the Dems do hit back on the religion part, I would expect them to bring up LDS's not so pleasant history in regards to black people.

I'd not want to see it go this way, but the Romney campaign has to be made to understand what happens when they coordinate with their uncoordinated PACs.

404 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:31am

re: #397 sattv4u2

I did get that wrong. However, it doesn't change the fact that Zimmerman was told to stay away from Martin.

And you got it wrong again.
He was NOT "told to stay away from Martin"

What was stated, was "we don't need you to do that"

If that's the best you got, I'm not impressed.

I only save the best for those that are deserving!
(see , two can play this snotty game ,, but in the end, where does that leave us?)

You're still not addressing KT's use of the Magical Balance Fairy, wherein Martin is somehow partly responsible for being shot in the chest. Which was the main thrust of my post.

Not being snotty, just pointing out your outrage over my potty mouth doesn't address what I brought up.

Besides, KT obviously doesn't give a shit about what I have to say. Maybe you should take a page from his book.

405 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:02:51am

re: #402 ggt

I agree, I haven't seen any evidence that Obama plans on following any extreme doctrine in the last 4 years.

I mean it would definitely be a "where's the beef" kinda rebuttal by the Dems.

406 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:03:27am

re: #403 Decatur Deb

I'd not want to see it go this way, but the Romney campaign has to be made to understand what happens when they coordinate with their uncoordinated PACs.

Neither would I because I see nothing about Romney that suggests he believed in that crap. Hell his own father took crap from the bigots within their church for supporting civil rights.

407 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:03:58am

re: #387 HappyWarrior

Two of the Serbian Intiatiated Genocides of the Last Century are well known, being Bosnia and Kosovo.

There was a third: Albania. Just before World War I, Serbia and Greece attacked Albania in order to partition it between the two of them. While the Albanians were able to keep their independence, they lost Kosovo, the Presevo Valley, Southern Epirus, and chunks in what is today Montenegro and Macedonia.

However, back to the point. By 1913, at least 120,000 Albanians had died. The Ethnic Group was small, numbering only about 800k in 1923. The stories out of there are horrifying. And, combined with what happened in my lifetime, give me a poor view of Serbs.

I personally think our bombing of Belgrade was glorious. However, it seems Serbians have parked on the Kosovo War article on Wikipedia to slime the Albanians.

408 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:04:52am

What they're planning is something you use against a challenger not an incumbent. If people didn't buy that Obama was an America hating radical four years ago, they're not going to get it now. Just like Mr. Ricketts won't get to see the Cubs he owns make a World Series.

409 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:05:33am

re: #408 HappyWarrior

What they're planning is something you use against a challenger not an incumbent. If people didn't buy that Obama was an America hating radical four years ago, they're not going to get it now. Just like Mr. Ricketts won't get to see the Cubs he owns make a World Series.

Yet another reason to be a White Sox Fan!

410 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:05:40am

re: #406 HappyWarrior

Neither would I because I see nothing about Romney that suggests he believed in that crap. Hell his own father took crap from the bigots within their church for supporting civil rights.

And a couple million perfectly decent Mormons would get smeared the way Catholics were in the JFK campaign.

411 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:08:13am

re: #407 ProGunLiberal

Calling a bombing campaign glorious is stupid.

412 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:08:30am

re: #407 ProGunLiberal

Two of the Serbian Intiatiated Genocides of the Last Century are well known, being Bosnia and Kosovo.

There was a third: Albania. Just before World War I, Serbia and Greece attacked Albania in order to partition it between the two of them. While the Albanians were able to keep their independence, they lost Kosovo, the Presevo Valley, Southern Epirus, and chunks in what is today Montenegro and Macedonia.

However, back to the point. By 1913, at least 120,000 Albanians had died. The Ethnic Group was small, numbering only about 800k in 1923. The stories out of there are horrifying. And, combined with what happened in my lifetime, give me a poor view of Serbs.

I personally think our bombing of Belgrade was glorious. However, it seems Serbians have parked on the Kosovo War article on Wikipedia to slime the Albanians.

Ah I wasn't familiar with that. It's a troubled region. Not to defend and in fact to wish they had more empathy but the Serbs were persecuted themselves. Read about the Croatian Utasse and it's why I don't have a good impression of the Catholic hierachy. And I disagree with calling hte bombing campaign glorious. Justified perhaps but glorious isn't the word.

413 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:09:00am

re: #404 mattand


KT's use of the Magical Balance Fairy, wherein Martin is somehow partly responsible for being shot in the chest.

I asked you to show me where KT "blamed" Martin. In that you didn't, I'm assuming that you can't


just pointing out your outrage

I showed no "outrage", nor do I have any. It was a simple call for civility. If thats beyond you,then so be it

KT obviously doesn't' give a shit about what I have to say. Maybe you should take a page from his book

Why would I "take a page from his book"? He has his library, I have my own. Sometimes he and I agree, more often we don't.

414 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:09:36am

re: #413 sattv4u2


KT's use of the Magical Balance Fairy, wherein Martin is somehow partly responsible for being shot in the chest.

I asked you to show me where KT "blamed" Martin. In that you didn't, I'm assuming that you can't

just pointing out your outrage

I showed no "outrage", nor do I have any. It was a simple call for civility. If thats beyond you,then so be it

KT obviously doesn't' give a shit about what I have to say. Maybe you should take a page from his book

Why would I "take a page from his book"? He has his library, I have my own. Sometimes he and I agree, more often we don't.

But he does have good frog storys! (stories?)

415 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:10:19am

re: #409 ggt

Yet another reason to be a White Sox Fan!

Haha. I'm an O's fan but I had to get a dig at the Cubbies in even though I bought a Wrigley Field coffee mug this winter during my Midway layover.

416 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:11:16am

re: #414 ggt

But he does have good frog storys!

...and the tomatoes in the greenhouse are already 7 ft tall. Not much bothers me these days.

417 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:11:19am

re: #414 ggt

But he does have good frog storys! (stories?)

Frog stories and boob-pun threads are critical to the functioning of LGF.

418 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:11:35am

re: #415 HappyWarrior

Haha. I'm an O's fan but I had to get a dig at the Cubbies in even though I bought a Wrigley Field coffee mug this winter during my Midway layover.

ah well, Wrigley Field is a National Monument

As long as it was a Cub's mug . . . .

419 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:23am

re: #398 dragonfire1981

Oh and you just gotta love the class playbook cover:

Image: Donate-articleLarge.jpg

There's some big money backing Republicans and Romney this year. The un-American and banana-country Citizen's United decision has a lot to do with it. It's more than clear by now that the Republican Party is the party of the super-rich in this country. They're very nervous about Obama and want to do everything possible to maintain every penny as possible.

420 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:46am

re: #411 Obdicut

Considering what the Serbians had done by this point, I have no sympathy for when we kicked the tar out of that city. There's a point where brutal action is called for.

Serbia committing 2 Genocides in 10 years is that point. Along with the depravity they showed during the Bosnian War, with the Rape Camps.

re: #412 HappyWarrior

Oh, I am well aware of the Ustase and their actions. They were also responsible for the murder of something like 100k Bosnians. Thing is, the Croatians didn't vote to put the equivalent of the Ustase in power in an election two weeks ago.

I guarantee a majority of Serbs support Mladic.

421 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:13:54am

re: #410 Decatur Deb

And a couple million perfectly decent Mormons would get smeared the way Catholics were in the JFK campaign.

Precisely why I would oppose such an attack.

422 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:15:04am

re: #420 ProGunLiberal

Yeah, yeah, group blame, you love it, I know. You love collective punishment, including against civilians, because you're some sort of war of civilizations asshole, and I'm completely fucking tired of your bullshit.

423 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:15:20am

re: #413 sattv4u2

From post #75, which I quoted originally:

I sort of agree. My guess is there are no saints or demons in this situation. It's something that went bad and probably didn't have to.

To which I said:

If you're referring specifically to Martin and Zimmerman, you're a fucking idiot.

If you look at the responses after post 75, I'm not the only one who was interpreting that as "Martin is as much to blame." I also qualified my statement, on the outside chance KT wasn't addressing those two specifically.

424 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:15:36am

re: #420 ProGunLiberal

Considering what the Serbians had done by this point, I have no sympathy for when we kicked the tar out of that city. There's a point where brutal action is called for.

Serbia committing 2 Genocides in 10 years is that point. Along with the depravity they showed during the Bosnian War, with the Rape Camps.

re: #412 HappyWarrior

Oh, I am well aware of the Ustase and their actions. They were also responsible for the murder of something like 100k Bosnians. Thing is, the Croatians didn't vote to put the equivalent of the Ustase in power in an election two weeks ago.

I guarantee a majority of Serbs support Mladic.

What about the civilians? People don't deserve to die because of a mindset. Even the German civilians in World War II, atrocities against German civiliansin its aftermath were still wrong considering German atrocities. By the way when you wish death on a collective group because of their actions. You become what you hate.

425 SidewaysQuark  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:16:43am

I think it's becoming clear that Trayvon Martin wasn't simply gunned down in cold blood. Zimmerman seems to me a mall ninja wannabe with some bad prejudices who got in way over his head. Like someone else here once commented, a manslaughter charge would be appropriate, and some years in prison (not life) would teach the guy he's too much of an idiot to own a gun.

As far as "justice" goes, I simply don't see it as possible in this case.

426 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:17:31am

re: #421 HappyWarrior

Precisely why I would oppose such an attack.

I oppose the attack, but the credible threat is the only thing that will make them hesitate. Grew up in MAD times.

427 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:19:02am

re: #426 Decatur Deb

It's really very nice that most kids today grow up without that worry of nuclear annihilation. It's hard to explain what that was like to kids these days, especially when they're on my lawn, playing that rap music and talking that jibber-jabber.

428 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:19:16am

re: #425 SidewaysQuark

I think it's becoming clear that Trayvon Martin wasn't simply gunned down in cold blood. Zimmerman seems to me a mall ninja wannabe with some bad prejudices who got in way over his head. Like someone else here once commented, a manslaughter charge would be appropriate, and some years in prison (not life) would teach the guy he's too much of an idiot to own a gun.

As far as "justice" goes, I simply don't see it as possible in this case.

It's also not clear that Zimmerman didn't bait Martin --entrapment in a sense. He knew the law. I get the distinct impression he stalked him, approached him and gave Martin a reason to punch him and then thought SYG would cover his crime.

429 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:20:17am

re: #426 Decatur Deb

I oppose the attack, but the credible threat is the only thing that will make them hesitate. Grew up in MAD times.

I grew-up in Detroit.

430 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:20:37am

re: #422 Obdicut

Okay, when a country commits Genocide 3 times in the space of a century, there is something heavily screwed up. How does that happen. I can't even think of another nation with such a record of genocide.

At some point, just like with the Holocaust, collective guilt does occur. Serbia has hit this point. Multiple Times. And they refuse to see what they did as wrong. In any of these three cases. And then, they have to gall to get pissy when the Albanians and Bosnians have unholy levels of anger at the Serbs.

431 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:20:42am

re: #428 ggt

It's also not clear that Zimmerman didn't bait Martin --entrapment in a sense. He knew the law. I get the distinct impression he stalked him, approached him and gave Martin a reason to punch him and then thought SYG would cover his crime.

That's interesting. Was it mentioned somewhere that Zimmerman was aware of SYG?

432 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:21:49am

re: #431 mattand

That's interesting. Was it mentioned somewhere that Zimmerman was aware of SYG?

You know mattand --I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve here and I don't care.

I'm not playing.

433 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:21:52am

re: #430 ProGunLiberal

Collective guilt will remain a bullshit idea, embraced by people like the Nazis, and you're going to have to live with that. If you're comfortable applying the same thought process the Nazis did, go ahead, but don't expect those of us who know that collective guilt is the kind of asshole thinking that leads to genocides to not tell you what an asshole you're being.

434 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:22:19am

re: #432 ggt

Reads like an honest question to me.

435 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:23:34am

re: #430 ProGunLiberal

Okay, when a country commits Genocide 3 times in the space of a century, there is something heavily screwed up. How does that happen. I can't even think of another nation with such a record of genocide.

At some point, just like with the Holocaust, collective guilt does occur. Serbia has hit this point. Multiple Times. And they refuse to see what they did as wrong. In any of these three cases. And then, they have to gall to get pissy when the Albanians and Bosnians have unholy levels of anger at the Serbs.

Obdicut's already said it but your mindset is exactly what leads to these things happening in the first place. Stop blaming the whole Serbian nation here. It's not right.

436 Mattand  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:24:27am

re: #432 ggt

You know mattand --I'm not sure what you are trying to achieve here and I don't care.

I'm not playing.

Jesus, dude, relax. I hadn't seen that mentioned before. I was under the impression that Zimmerman wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar, let alone up on current law. If anything, your theory is interesting take.

Sorry if you're mad at me for being mad at KT's dumb "everyone's to blame" BS, but I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

437 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:24:42am

re: #433 Obdicut

We did collective guilt with the Germans after the Holocaust. I see little to no difference to doing it with the Serbs today.

And I am not even calling for the stuff we made the Germans do in the aftermath of the war.

438 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:02am

Rubbing my eyes on this Obama is a “metrosexual, black Abe Lincoln" crap.

439 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:31am

re: #427 Obdicut

It's really very nice that most kids today grow up without that worry of nuclear annihilation. It's hard to explain what that was like to kids these days, especially when they're on my lawn, playing that rap music and talking that jibber-jabber.

Wife was a 12-yr old at her father's post near the Czech border when the wall went up. She knew the details of the noncombatant evacuation plan, and knew it wasn't going to work. I was a kid in Pittsburgh, perversely proud of the shower of ICBMs anticipated.

440 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:25:36am

re: #437 ProGunLiberal

We did collective guilt with the Germans after the Holocaust. I see little to no difference to doing it with the Serbs today.

No, we didn't.

441 The Left  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:26:30am

re: #438 Gus

Rubbing my eyes on this Obama is a “metrosexual, black Abe Lincoln" crap.

I just read that and had the same reaction.

442 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:26:46am

George Zimmerman is guilty. Here's hoping he gets at least 10 years behind bars.

Drink!

:P

443 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:27:02am

re: #441 Millicent Islam

I just read that and had the same reaction.

Republicants.

444 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:27:20am

We did apply collective guilt to US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII.

That's a good example of the assholic bullshit that is collective guilt.

445 bratwurst  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:28:39am

re: #437 ProGunLiberal

We did collective guilt with the Germans after the Holocaust. I see little to no difference to doing it with the Serbs today.

And I am not even calling for the stuff we made the Germans do in the aftermath of the war.

I teach a class which includes a Serbian woman and a Bosniak woman who spent some time in a concentration camp during the war. The Bosniak does not hold the Serbian responsible for what happened to her. If SHE is ok with not holding each and every Serbian responsible for the horrors she had to endure, so am I.

446 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:30:01am

re: #444 Obdicut

We did apply collective guilt to US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII.

That's a good example of the assholic bullshit that is collective guilt.

We, including the Decatur Deb, applied "collective consequences" to the German and Japanese cities. Guilt and innocence was left to the chaplains. It would be better not to be in the same situation again.

447 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:31:26am

re: #446 Decatur Deb

We, including the Decatur Deb, applied "collective consequences" to the German and Japanese cities. Guilt and innocence was left to the chaplains. It would be better not to be in the same situation again.

True, but that wasn't done in response to the Holocaust. It was also probably pretty dumb, except in a few cases.

448 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:31:43am

re: #436 mattand

Jesus, dude, relax. I hadn't seen that mentioned before. I was under the impression that Zimmerman wasn't exactly a Rhodes scholar, let alone up on current law. If anything, your theory is interesting take.

Sorry if you're mad at me for being mad at KT's dumb "everyone's to blame" BS, but I'm not trying to pick a fight with you.

Wanna be cop and gun nut --yeah, I think the prosecution will have no problem establishing that he was aware of SYG.

449 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:32:10am

I remember my middle school. Real old building. The side of the school where parents would pick up kids had in the 60's been a fallout shelter. You could even see the faded sign. Always thought that was neat.

450 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:32:34am

re: #444 Obdicut

We did apply collective guilt to US citizens of Japanese descent during WWII.

That's a good example of the assholic bullshit that is collective guilt.

Great example of why collective guilt is a load of crap.

451 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:34:11am

re: #447 Obdicut

True, but that wasn't done in response to the Holocaust. It was also probably pretty dumb, except in a few cases.

The Holocaust had nothing to do with it. I think very few people even in the Allied high command had any realization of what was going on. The shock at the liberation of the camps seems real.

452 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:34:43am
453 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:35:33am

re: #444 Obdicut

Then what do you call our actions at the end of the war. The ones were we forced the towns near the Concentration Camps to go and see these horrors, bury bodies, and even forced locals to provide items to the survivors. Or how about the propaganda effort aimed at trying to create a sense of Collective Guilt among the Germans.

Image: Eure_Schuld.jpg

That headline says "These Atrocities:Your Fault" And that is only the tip of a very, very big iceberg.

454 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:36:31am

SYG and sports. Needed to develop and maintain the warrior class.

//

455 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:37:38am

re: #445 bratwurst

It ticks me off that the Albanians and Bosnians never really got justice for what happened to them.

456 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:37:57am

re: #453 ProGunLiberal

Then what do you call our actions at the end of the war. The ones were we forced the towns near the Concentration Camps to go and see these horrors, bury bodies, and even forced locals to provide items to the survivors.

These weren't organized actions, nor are they comparable to punishment of guilt through bombing.

That headline says "These Atrocities:Your Fault" And that is only the tip of a very, very big iceberg.

Do you think they meant it was the fault of the Germans who had resisted the Nazis?

457 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:38:34am

re: #439 Decatur Deb

Wife was a 12-yr old at her father's post near the Czech border when the wall went up. She knew the details of the noncombatant evacuation plan, and knew it wasn't going to work. I was a kid in Pittsburgh, perversely proud of the shower of ICBMs anticipated.

Hell, in the early '80's when I was stationed in Germany (Bavaria, near the Czech b boarder) our hope was simply to kill 7 of their tanks before we died. If we all did that, they calculated we could slow the advance enough so that REFORGER might work.

Of course one of the ironies of that is that they thought we could bring in about 4x as many troops via REFORGER as we really could and that was one of things that kept the lid on the pot.

458 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:40:22am
459 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:41:21am
460 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:41:53am

re: #457 William Barnett-Lewis

Were you in a scout platoon?

461 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:42:29am

re: #458 Gus

[Embedded content]

The Debbie Spent It Now is one of those ads. This is going to be ugly.

462 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:43:23am

Ugh...

UC-Irvine to Host Supporters of Terror and Anti-Israel Activists

Several anti-Israel speakers will participate in a “Palestine Liberation Week” event sponsored by the Muslim Student Union at the University of California-Irvine from May 7-10.

One of the speakers will be Oakland imam Amir Abdel Malik Ali, known to support the terrorist groups Hamas, Hezbollah and Islamic Jihad. According to Campus Watch, he has also made anti-Semitic comments and suggested that Jews were behind 9-11.

Other speakers will include Ben White, a Boycott, Divestment and Sanctions (BDS) movement supporter who has written for the Electronic Intifada and other anti-Israel publications, as well as University of California-Berkeley lecturer Hatem Bazian, who has compared the Israeli-Palestinian conflict to the Holocaust and Israelis to Nazis.

In February 2010, Israeli Ambassador to the U.S. Michael Oren was interrupted by 11 protesters—who among other things shouted “How many Palestinians did you kill?”—when he spoke at UC-Irvine.

463 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:43:38am

re: #457 William Barnett-Lewis

Hell, in the early '80's when I was stationed in Germany (Bavaria, near the Czech b boarder) our hope was simply to kill 7 of their tanks before we died. If we all did that, they calculated we could slow the advance enough so that REFORGER might work.

Of course one of the ironies of that is that the thought we could bring in about 4x as many troops via REFORGER as we really could and that was one of things that kept the lid on the pot.

Heh. The Australians fielded a gun-buggy Rover with a 106mm recoiless rifle for anti-tank. It carried 6 rounds.

Image: lrswb12.jpg

464 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:44:07am
465 The Left  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:46:51am

re: #458 Gus

[Embedded content]

Let's hope his losing streak continues!

Frankly, I hope the GOP does spend a lot of time and money talking about Wright. No one is going to care and it's all been said before anyway. Didn't work in 08, not going to work now.

466 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:46:58am

re: #460 RogueOne

Were you in a scout platoon?

M-60A3 tread-head on active, moved to scouts in the Guard. Finally to Intel because the S2 shop was the only place with open NCO slots.

467 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:48:32am

re: #465 Millicent Islam

Let's hope his losing streak continues!

Frankly, I hope the GOP does spend a lot of time and money talking about Wright. No one is going to care and it's all been said before anyway. Didn't work in 08, not going to work now.

It only makes Romney look more desperate if you ask me. And besides considering all the nutty preachers they themselves court. There's that old saying about glass houses here.

468 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:11am

re: #466 William Barnett-Lewis

M-60A3 tread-head on active, moved to scouts in the Guard. Finally to Intel because the S2 shop was the only place with open NCO slots.

Wife's dad retired to do M-60 gunnery instruction at Knox. What is our Bacon number?

469 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:22am

Donna Summer has passed away.

470 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:49:44am
471 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:50:23am

re: #469 Gus

Donna Summer has passed away.

I remember the disco era and she was at the top. RIP Donna.

472 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:50:41am

re: #469 Gus

Donna Summer has passed away.

:(

473 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:50:44am

re: #396 dragonfire1981

All that time and money and this is the BEST they could do? Recycle criticisms of Obama's former pastor that were aired ad nauseam in 2008?

THE PRESIDENT IS NI*CLANG*!

474 Shropshire_Slasher  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:51:54am

toot toot
ahhh
beep beep
My sister had a parakeet that would imitate the whistle
RIP

475 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:52:05am

re: #465 Millicent Islam

Let's hope his losing streak continues!

Frankly, I hope the GOP does spend a lot of time and money talking about Wright. No one is going to care and it's all been said before anyway. Didn't work in 08, not going to work now.

I'm sure someone will blame "teh left" along the way. Anyway, this is the new Southern Strategy. Race baiting and all that jazz.

476 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:52:29am

re: #473 moderatelyradicalliberal

THE PRESIDENT IS NI*CLANG*!

[Embedded content]

Love that movie. The president's anecdote about it during the Kennedy Center's tribute to Mel was cool too. I think I'll have a tear when Mel passes on.

477 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:53:08am

re: #468 Decatur Deb

Wife's dad retired to do M-60 gunnery instruction at Knox. What is our Bacon number?

Hah! Probably pretty small. My class book is packed away but I'll have to check sometime.

Loved the old M68 gun. Nothing like shooting a 105mm rifle :D

478 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:53:40am
479 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:54:33am

One thing's apparent. The "rock 'n roll lifestyle" sure does lead to an early demise.

480 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:54:55am

re: #462 NJDhockeyfan

Pro-tip to all the Palestinian Activists out in the world. If your position is not supported by Finklestein and the others, you might be going more than a little bit too far.

Finklestein, doesn't support BDS.

In all honesty, I am able to keep a more logical mindset with Israel-Palestine than the Balkans. I cannot explain why.

481 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:00am

re: #478 darthstar

Sergey...can you translate?

Image: 542559_10150872874693498_844413497_9716770_1855354278_n.jpg

"Stay in your safety zone and you'll get 'some'"

482 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:18am

re: #479 Gus

Unless you are Keith Richards.

Then, you have found the Elixir of Life in the combination of horsey crap you have been taking.

483 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:56:39am

Aw, Donna...RIP

484 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:05am

re: #478 darthstar

I can't read the caption, but I have a hunch of what it says based off of the picture.

485 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:19am

re: #481 sattv4u2

"Stay in your safety zone and you'll get 'some'"

She didn't have to let him die.

486 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:22am

re: #470 Gus

[Embedded content]

:(

Kyrie, eleison.

487 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:35am

re: #484 ProGunLiberal

I can't read the caption, but I have a hunch of what it says based off of the picture.

Kate was a board hog.

488 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:36am

re: #482 ProGunLiberal

Unless you are Keith Richards.

Then, you have found the Elixir of Life in the combination of horsey crap you have been taking.

I'm sure in time we'll learn who makes it beyond 80.

489 Killgore Trout  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:57:50am

re: #478 darthstar

Sergey...can you translate?

Image: 542559_10150872874693498_844413497_9716770_1855354278_n.jpg

I saw that on reddit a while ago. It's a visual representation that both of the characters from the end of Titanic could have fit on the plank of wood and floated to safety.

490 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:58:02am

re: #480 ProGunLiberal

Pro-tip to all the Palestinian Activists out in the world

You're a Professional Palestinian Activist?

491 erik_t  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:58:13am
A senior Romney adviser said the campaign sought to use Clinton’s name to drive a wedge between centrist and liberal Democrats in the November general election. “It’s useful to point out what people already believe about Obama,” Romney strategist Stuart Stevens told POLITICO. [...]

Romney can make the about-face on Clinton, GOP operative Rick Wilson said, because the combination of the primary’s end and Obama’s embrace of gay marriage have coalesced for him the conservative base. What’s left to target is the political middle and voters who remember fondly the Clinton era.

I'm, uh, sure this will totally work.

(attempts to suppress giggles)

492 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 8:59:34am

re: #489 Killgore Trout

I saw that on reddit a while ago. It's a visual representation that both of the characters from the end of Titanic could have fit on the plank of wood and floated to safety.

If only they'd thought to bring a deck of cards.

493 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:15am

re: #476 HappyWarrior

Love that movie. The president's anecdote about it during the Kennedy Center's tribute to Mel was cool too. I think I'll have a tear when Mel passes on.

I never saw that. Do you have a link?

494 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:22am

re: #489 Killgore Trout

I saw that on reddit a while ago. It's a visual representation that both of the characters from the end of Titanic could have fit on the plank of wood and floated to safety.

Good thing one of them grabbed a deck of cards before leaving the ship!!

495 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:28am

re: #466 William Barnett-Lewis

M-60A3 tread-head on active, moved to scouts in the Guard. Finally to Intel because the S2 shop was the only place with open NCO slots.

I was just curious. I had a friend in a scout platoon in Germany during the 80's and the saying at that time was they had a life expectancy of approx. 11 mins if the shit hit the fan.

496 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:32am

re: #491 erik_t

I'm, uh, sure this will totally work.

(attempts to suppress giggles)

And Obama can point out with a chuckle that his vice president was only the second vice president to embrace marriage equality. They're desperate if they think playing the anti gay marriage card is going to get them Democratic crossover votes.

497 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:00:58am

re: #492 darthstar

Beat me ,, by less than a minute

498 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:01:42am

WTF? This is on Summer's Wiki page:

On May 17th, 2012, Donna Summer died after a long battle with cancer. [12] Summer lived in Nashville with her husband and was a grandmother of four but the biznotch died. Currently she is decomposing.

499 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:02:12am

re: #493 moderatelyradicalliberal

I never saw that. Do you have a link?

I do not. Just read about the president talking about how he loved the movie and Mel asking how he got in. Brooks' is an institution in my family. My grandfather had the 2000 year old man skit with Carl Reiner on record, I can remember my Dad singing Springtime For Hitler, etc.

500 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:02:22am

re: #490 sattv4u2

I watch a Web Series called Radio Dead Air.

The guy makes videos every few weeks detailing the worst idiocy of the Human Race called "What the Fuck is Wrong with You." Often, when needing to state the painfully obvious, he will go "Pro-Tip", then state the point 95% of humanity has known forever.

I've watched enough of them to take to using the phrase too.

501 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:02:54am

re: #498 Gus

That will be gone by 10:15

502 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:18am

re: #501 ProGunLiberal

That will be gone by 10:15

Already gone.

503 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:18am

re: #498 Gus

WTF? This is on Summer's Wiki page:

"but the biznotch died." Probably some douchebag who thought it was classy to edit her page after her death.

504 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:03:49am

re: #498 Gus

WTF? This is on Summer's Wiki page:

All I see is this:

In 1994, Summer and her family moved from Los Angeles to Nashville where she took time out from showbusiness to focus on painting, a hobby she began in 1985. In 1995, Summer's mother died.
On May 17th, 2012, Donna Summer died after a long battle with cancer. [12]

505 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:04:03am

re: #491 erik_t

I'm, uh, sure this will totally work.

(attempts to suppress giggles)

If Willard's daddy hadn't been rich, Willard would have been a used car salesman. Seriously, he's not very bright.

506 erik_t  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:04:04am

re: #496 HappyWarrior

And Obama can point out with a chuckle that his vice president was only the second vice president to embrace marriage equality. They're desperate if they think playing the anti gay marriage card is going to get them Democratic crossover votes.

It's not clear to me that the gay-marriage part is explicitly intended as the wedge, or merely as an example of how Romney has locked up the conservative base. It appears to be a generic attempt to capture the statistically non-existent PUMAs.

507 ProGunLiberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:05:41am

re: #504 NJDhockeyfan

Wikipedia editor caught it quickly.

Wikipedia has a policy of keeping close tabs on the articles of the recently deceased.

It's a good policy.

508 erik_t  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:05:45am

re: #505 moderatelyradicalliberal

If Willard's daddy hadn't been rich, Willard would have been a used car salesman. Seriously, he's not very bright.

A primary that lasted into friggin' April AND THIS IS THE BEST YOU COULD DO!?!?

509 RogueOne  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:09am

Time to hit the road. Enjoy the day you people.

510 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:14am

re: #504 NJDhockeyfan

All I see is this:

Left column here. Line 115.

511 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:35am

re: #509 RogueOne

Time to hit the road. Enjoy the day you people.

Sure ,, you say that now that it's half gone!

512 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:07:54am

re: #508 erik_t

A primary that lasted into friggin' April AND THIS IS THE BEST YOU COULD DO!?!?

Hey, it could have been the Falangist or the Goldbug... LOL, yeah, this _is_ the best they could do.

513 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:11:31am

re: #512 William Barnett-Lewis

Hey, it could have been the Falangist or the Goldbug... LOL, yeah, this _is_ the best they could do.

The platform of the GOP is not going to result in any actual good leaders stepping forward. It's bigoted, enshrines Randian economics, and its foreign policy is currently a complete fucking mess.

514 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:13:33am

re: #513 Obdicut

The platform of the GOP is not going to result in any actual good leaders stepping forward. It's bigoted, enshrines Randian economics, and its foreign policy is currently a complete fucking mess.

And 40-50% of our countrymen are content with it.

515 moderatelyradicalliberal  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:13:35am

re: #508 erik_t

A primary that lasted into friggin' April AND THIS IS THE BEST YOU COULD DO!?!?

In a struggling economy and an increasingly less white country, we're going to find out if it's all they need.

516 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:14:02am

re: #438 Gus

Rubbing my eyes on this Obama is a “metrosexual, black Abe Lincoln" crap.

I know, because we all know Abe was a Vampie Hunter!

517 Targetpractice  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:14:19am

re: #508 erik_t

A primary that lasted into friggin' April AND THIS IS THE BEST YOU COULD DO!?!?

It's amazing what millions in SuperPAC dollars can do, isn't it?

518 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:14:56am
519 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:19:04am

re: #430 ProGunLiberal

Okay, when a country commits Genocide 3 times in the space of a century, there is something heavily screwed up. How does that happen. I can't even think of another nation with such a record of genocide.

Let me help you out here.

1. China
2. Cambodia
3. Soviet Russia
4. Rwanda

Give me another minute and I will think of some more.

520 Obdicut  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:20:26am

re: #519 Learned Mother of Zion

Russia tended more towards democide than genocide.

I'd say Mongolia, for what they did under the Khans, would fit.

521 Varek Raith  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:21:19am

Mice with fully functioning human brains!!!

522 darthstar  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:04am

re: #521 Varek Raith

Mice with fully functioning human brains!!!

You are not a witch.

523 erik_t  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:23am

re: #519 Learned Mother of Zion

Let me help you out here.

1. China
2. Cambodia
3. Soviet Russia
4. Rwanda

Give me another minute and I will think of some more.

The United States could certainly be argued to qualify.

But, y'know, we need a Cultural Enemy of the Day, so never mind that.

524 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:29am

re: #519 Learned Mother of Zion

Let me help you out here.

1. China
2. Cambodia
3. Soviet Russia
4. Rwanda

Give me another minute and I will think of some more.

Let's not ask the Sioux.

525 Gus  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:22:59am

re: #524 Decatur Deb

Let's not ask the Sioux.

That's different!

//

526 lawhawk  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:23:01am

re: #519 Learned Mother of Zion

Congo/Rwanda. Sudan. North Korea.

That includes genocide and democide.

527 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:24am

re: #526 lawhawk

Congo/Rwanda. Sudan. North Korea.

That includes genocide and democide.

So, any nation with the means and motivation. And I'm keeping my eye on the Swiss.

528 NJDhockeyfan  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:50am

World War II bomb found in Kaiserslautern downtown

KAISERSLAUTERN, Germany — City authorities will evacuate about 3,000 people from downtown Kaiserslautern on Thursday while experts defuse a World War II-era bomb found at the site of a shopping center under construction.

German authorities will be supported by American military police during the evacuations, said Michael Ufer, deputy chief of the Kaiserslautern fire department.

...The 250-pound U.S. bomb was discovered by an explosives excavation expert assigned to the construction project because of the potential for finding unexploded ordnance from World WarII, according to the Rheinpfalz newspaper.

Sandra Zehnle, spokeswoman for the city of Kaiserslautern, said the bomb was not found by metal detectors because it was buried too deep and covered by a water pipe.

529 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:25:57am

re: #527 Decatur Deb

So, any nation with the means and motivation. And I'm keeping my eye on the Swiss.

you just WATCH, they're next!

530 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:27:17am

re: #529 sattv4u2

you just WATCH, they're next!

That's cuckoo.

531 Decatur Deb  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:28:52am

Hate to pun 'n run, but the grass is finally dry enough to cut. BBL

532 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:31:20am

re: #530 Decatur Deb

That's cuckoo.

That's what my GRANDFATHER said.

533 Gretchen G.Tiger  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:33:02am
534 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:34:22am

re: #532 RayFerd

That's what my GRANDFATHER said.

And when he did, boy did that tic me off

535 Eventual Carrion  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:42:37am

re: #534 sattv4u2

And when he did, boy did that tic me off

Yeah, my alarm went off too.

536 HappyWarrior  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:43:09am

re: #520 Obdicut

Russia tended more towards democide than genocide.

I'd say Mongolia, for what they did under the Khans, would fit.

Bomb Ulan Bator?

537 abolitionist  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:47:01am

re: #378 RogueOne

50? That's incredible. On the bright side, no one got pepper-sprayed and no shots were fired so no one is looking for a new dog this morning...

Did you see the story last week that said german police fired a total of 85 bullets last year? Slackers.

Makes one question whether there could possibly be any marksmen among them.

538 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Thu, May 17, 2012 9:51:30am

re: #451 Decatur Deb

The Holocaust had nothing to do with it. I think very few people even in the Allied high command had any realization of what was going on. The shock at the liberation of the camps seems real.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
[Link: de.wikipedia.org...]

539 Sheila Broflovski  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:07:29am

re: #520 Obdicut

Russia tended more towards democide than genocide.

I'd say Mongolia, for what they did under the Khans, would fit.

I was thinking of the 20th century to the present,

540 SidewaysQuark  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:24:49am

re: #513 Obdicut

The platform of the GOP is not going to result in any actual good leaders stepping forward. It's bigoted, enshrines Randian economics, and its foreign policy is currently a complete fucking mess.

"Randian economics" is indeed kind of an oxymoron, no? My neighbors would sure get pissed if I embarked on a mission of "Randian lawn care".

541 b_sharp  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:26:24am

re: #540 SidewaysQuark

"Randian economics" is indeed kind of an oxymoron, no? My neighbors would sure get pissed if I embarked on a mission of "Randian lawn care".

My lawn needs to be cut and fertilized.

When are you coming up?

542 TheAntichrist  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:38:14am

"Intermediate range" in this case is 2-4 inches: "The gunshot wound entrance was from a bullet fired from "intermediate range," or two-to-four inches, "a soot ring abrasion and a two-inch by two-inch area of stippling" on his body."

[Link: news.yahoo.com...]

This is entirely consistent with Zimmerman's account. I'd be shocked if Zimmerman gets convicted, this case is as weak as it gets. It seems to me the prosecution's entire case rests on speculation thaqt it was Zimmerman who initiated the confrontation, and so far no evidence of that has come to light. Let alone enough to overcome reasonable doubt.

543 sattv4u2  Thu, May 17, 2012 10:50:12am

re: #541 Ghost of Insanity

My lawn needs to be cut and fertilized.

When are you coming up?

Depends on how long it takes the Viagra to kick in, no?

544 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, May 17, 2012 2:47:13pm

re: #269 Dark_Falcon

Mandatory sentencing requirement. The legislature passed it (it passed easily, with bipartisan support) then said they were tough on crime.

they're tough on women, you mean :)

America can become a slave state again with "laws" like this


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