Trump’s Pick for Budget Director: A Far Right Congressman Tied to the John Birch Society

Trump puts a guy in charge of the budget who spoke to a group that wants to return to the Gold Standard
Politics • Views: 53,371

Donald Trump’s cabinet and agency picks are almost universally horrifying (if you aren’t an extreme right wing loon), a wildly unqualified crew of billionaire former Goldman Sachs executives, retired generals with strange ideas, and now — a far right Congressman from South Carolina with ties to the John Birch Society.

Rep. Mick Mulvaney (R-S.C.), the ultra-conservative congressman tapped by Donald Trump to run the Office of Management and Budget, recently accepted a speaking invitation from the notorious John Birch Society, an extreme right-wing group known for peddling outlandish conspiracy theories for more than half a century.

In July, Mulvaney spoke at a dinner held by a local chapter of the group, which has long been exiled from mainstream conservatism. Founded in the 1950s, the outfit promoted a paranoid obsession with communist infiltration. It declared President Dwight Eisenhower “a conscious agent of the communist conspiracy.” It opposed the civil rights movement as a communist plot. Ever since William F. Buckley Jr., the intellectual godfather of modern conservatism, felt compelled to disavow the John Birch Society in the early 1960s, most mainstream conservatives have dismissed the organization as an embarrassment for the right. But the group still exists and continues to emphasize the communist threat. In recent years, it has pushed more modern conspiracy theories: Obamacare finances euthanasia, the United Nations has a sinister scheme for world domination, Moscow is the hidden force behind Islamic terrorism.

But Mulvaney was fine with speaking to the group. His July speech, flagged by the Democratic opposition research group American Bridge, was billed as an address on “the Federal Reserve’s role in bailing out Europe.” According to its website, the John Birch Society believes that the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional and should be abolished and that “the only constitutional money is gold and silver coin.”

Every day there’s another nightmarish selection from the Trump Horror. He’s building a far right administration that intends to wipe out all the social progress America has made in the past century.

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388 comments
1
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:32:19am

For our life time, America’s best days are behind us.

2
Blind Frog Belly White  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:33:37am

he was also one of those clowns pushing default, rather than raising the debt ceiling, and now he’s going to work for the guy who promised to cut taxes, spend a bunch more on defense, and do a big infrastructure program.

I got a dollar that says he embraces big deficits, now that the GOP is in charge.

3
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:34:32am
According to its website, the John Birch Society believes that the Federal Reserve is unconstitutional and should be abolished and that “the only constitutional money is gold and silver coin.”

The surprises today are just overwhelming.

/

5
jaunte  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:34:49am

re: #2 Blind Frog Belly White

I got a dollar that says he embraces big deficits, now that the GOP is in charge.

We are weeks away from the first WSJ “deficits don’t really matter” editorial.

6
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:35:18am

RWNJ can’t believe their dreams, the cast of deplorables Trump is assembling.

7
jaunte  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:35:31am

SHould say the “next” WSJ DDRM editorial

8
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:36:07am

This cabinet is far loonier than anything Reagan contemplated.

9
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:36:26am

re: #4 The Vicious Babushka

Surprise, surprise, he is opposed to all government spending of any kind.

Except he will personally sign the checks from the government to Trump properties, “for the President’s protection”

10
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:38:58am

Trump’s win is the GOP dream come true. They literally have all the levers to completely and utterly destabilize everything they ever fucking wanted.

They’ve just straight up fucking WON, haven’t they? I don’t mean an election, they’ve just straight up won the soul of America, and there’s just no coming back from it now, not with all the power they’ve all but promised to use right out of the gate.

We can’t fix this anymore, can we? There’s just nothing left that can be fixed.

11
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:39:41am
12
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:41:26am

re: #1 Kragar

For our life time, America’s best days are behind us.

I do not see it that extremely, but I fear that news has to continue getting worse before it can even start to get a little bit better.

And I fear that the level of political discourse and media coverage has declined to the point that they will not help us out of this mess.

13
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:41:52am
14
Scottishdragon  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:43:19am

re: #13 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

Wasn’t a 12 year old kid with a bomb arrested yesterday in Germany trying to blow up a Christmas market??

15
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:43:25am
16
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:43:26am

re: #12 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

I do not see it that extremely, but I fear that news has to continue getting worse before it can even start to get a little bit better.

And I fear that the level of political discourse and media coverage has declined to the point that they will not help us out of this mess.

I see things getting worse.

I just can’t see things ever getting better, for the exact reason you state at the end. There’s just no mechanisms we have left, not with the fucking absurd leeway Trump has gotten and the clear indicators through each and every fucking one of his picks that this administration plans to tear down every single fucking institution we have and build gold statues to the glory of Trump and the GOP on their ruins.

17
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:44:43am

re: #16 Citizen K

I see things getting worse.

I just can’t see things ever getting better, for the exact reason you state at the end. There’s just no mechanisms we have left, not with the fucking absurd leeway Trump has gotten and the clear indicators through each and every fucking one of his picks that this administration plans to tear down every single fucking institution we have and build gold statues to the glory of Trump and the GOP on their ruins.

It will take a serious crisis to get enough people together to act in concert to improve things.

18
Scottishdragon  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:45:23am

nytimes.com

The 12 old with a nail bomb at the Christmas market was 3 days ago.

19
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:45:24am
20
Jenner7  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:45:45am
21
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:50:03am
22
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:51:46am

re: #20 Jenner7

23
Jenner7  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:52:52am

re: #22 lawhawk

lol

24
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:54:10am

re: #22 lawhawk

I hope bad things happen to that douche.

25
b.d.  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:54:20am

re: #22 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

lol, feel the bern…

26
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:55:24am
27
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:57:30am

re: #16 Citizen K

I see things getting worse.

I just can’t see things ever getting better, for the exact reason you state at the end. There’s just no mechanisms we have left, not with the fucking absurd leeway Trump has gotten and the clear indicators through each and every fucking one of his picks that this administration plans to tear down every single fucking institution we have and build gold statues to the glory of Trump and the GOP on their ruins.

When empires fall, they fall pretty damn quickly and bigly.

The American experiment is, for all intents and purposes, all over but the shouting.

28
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:57:54am

“… Moscow is the hidden force behind Islamic terrorism … .”

Is this part of the John Birch Society’s conspiracy theory out of sync with the modern Conservative theory?

Don’t the current American right-wingers now view Putin’s Russia as the great white European hope, and the rest of Europe as fallen?

29
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:58:12am

re: #27 Myron Falwell (no relation)

I’m pulling for the NCR at this point.
/

30
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:58:48am
31
jaunte  Dec 19, 2016 • 11:59:04am
32
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:02:47pm

re: #25 b.d.

lol, feel the bern…

Ratfucking from the grave…

33
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:05:01pm
34
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:06:12pm
35
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:08:19pm
36
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:11:08pm

re: #35 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

This is fine.

37
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:11:39pm

Until this past year (his last in office), I criticized Obama for not doing more in terms of pardons and commutations of sentences. He’s definitely giving the pardon power a workout now though.

And if this is anything like his last round of pardons/commutations, it’s likely for nonviolent offender/drug crimes where the sentencing was far more harsh than for other similar drug crimes (think crack versus cocaine).

38
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:12:07pm

re: #36 allegro

This is fine.

I’m wondering if they might not be protesters.

39
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:13:03pm

Meanwhile, The President-Elect received in-depth analysis of the shooting on InfoWars…

40
Rocky-in-Connecticut  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:13:06pm

re: #29 Kragar

I would perhaps join up with a Brotherhood of Steel but in actual reality finding a bunch of science and technology enthusiasts who also have the will and ability to physically kick ass is seemingly very limited.

I guess the best we can hope for are the bombs just make it quick and painless.

41
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:13:11pm

another view

42
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:13:34pm

re: #38 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’m wondering if they might not be protesters.

That occurred to me. Then I realized this is the Texas state house and no protesters would likely make it through the door.

43
Stanley Sea  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:14:16pm

re: #35 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

The fuck?

44
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:15:59pm

Is it too early to start drinking?

45
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:17:36pm

re: #31 jaunte

[Embedded content]

Wasn’t Trump melting down about Obama supposedly appeasing Iran over the four sailors the other month?

46
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:18:09pm

re: #20 Jenner7

“We are not thinking machines. We are feeling machines that think.” — Christopher Graves.

You aren’t going to be able to change people so that they suddenly become thinking machines. A leader of people has to be able to speak to their hearts, guts, instincts, emotions, etc.

I voted for Hillary Clinton and I would do it again. But, early on in the primary process, I realized she was some kind of risk. Like everyone else, as the process went forward, I figured she would win. Now, in retrospect again, I feel, and I think, she was a mistake.

And it’s not necessarily that Bernie would have been sure to win. We’ll never know. But, I had a feeling there would be a lot of otherwise reliable people, otherwise good people, who would refuse to vote for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t presume to know how to fix the Democratic Party’s system for choosing a candidate, but with Hillary Clinton, I think it showed a flaw.

I will never accept the charge that Bernie or his supporters did it. Hillary Clinton simply lacked the appeal necessary to get people out for her. Bernie nor his supporters created that problem. It existed before Bernie’s hat was in the ring. That problem was inherent in the candidate herself.

47
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:18:10pm

re: #44 allegro

Is it too early to start drinking?

I just now said fuck it and poured myself a Scotch…

48
PhillyPretzel  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:20:06pm

re: #47 Backwoods_Sleuth

I do not have any alcohol in my house but I am with you.

49
Rocky-in-Connecticut  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:22:16pm

re: #41 Backwoods_Sleuth

“Russians are white and nationalistic and so are we. That means we can be on the same page and work together.”

….or so goes the thought process of the typical right wing (usually racist) neo—Libertarian these days. This love affair has been building up for awhile, cultivated by years of propaganda by Russian Intelligence and trolls since at least the early 2000’s. The term “being played like a fiddle” doesn’t even come close to the amount of naïveté at work.

50
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:22:43pm
51
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:23:30pm

re: #47 Backwoods_Sleuth

I just now said fuck it and poured myself a Scotch…

Haha, I said fuck it and fixed a hot spiced cider with rum. (With the added excuse that I’m COLD and this warms from the innards out.)

52
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:24:19pm

my shocked face…

53
Resistance Is Not Futile  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:25:59pm

re: #46 S’latch

After a dozen different varieties of ratfucking, Hillary lost three critical states by a combined total of 100,000 votes. She won the popular vote by 2.8 million. Stop with the “tragic flaw” crap.

54
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:26:11pm

re: #35 Backwoods_Sleuth

Republicans standing united.

55
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:26:50pm

Berlin:

56
PhillyPretzel  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:27:02pm

re: #54 Myron Falwell (no relation)

Just like Preibus made them do. /half

57
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:28:33pm

re: #46 S’latch

“We are not thinking machines. We are feeling machines that think.” — Christopher Graves.

You aren’t going to be able to change people so that they suddenly become thinking machines. A leader of people has to be able to speak to their hearts, guts, instincts, emotions, etc.

I voted for Hillary Clinton and I would do it again. But, early on in the primary process, I realized she was some kind of risk. Like everyone else, as the process went forward, I figured she would win. Now, in retrospect again, I feel, and I think, she was a mistake.

And it’s not necessarily that Bernie would have been sure to win. We’ll never know. But, I had a feeling there would be a lot of otherwise reliable people, otherwise good people, who would refuse to vote for Hillary Clinton.

I don’t presume to know how to fix the Democratic Party’s system for choosing a candidate, but with Hillary Clinton, I think it showed a flaw.

I will never accept the charge that Bernie or his supporters did it. Hillary Clinton simply lacked the appeal necessary to get people out for her. Bernie nor his supporters created that problem. It existed before Bernie’s hat was in the ring. That problem was inherent in the candidate herself.

I feel this is a good time to point this out:

The entire problem wasn’t inherent. Hillary had a concerted effort to turn her into the ‘historically unpopular’ candidate she was continually described as. There are a lot of factors into that, but laying it all at the feet of Hillary like she inherently was just too hateable or something ignores how much effort, ink, and pixels were dedicated to tearing her down from all angles.

58
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:29:34pm

re: #53 Resistance Is Not Futile

Never. Because it’s true. And if the Democrats run a candidate like her again, the Democrats will lose again.

59
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:31:17pm

re: #57 Citizen K

I feel this is a good time to point this out:

[Embedded content]

The entire problem wasn’t inherent. Hillary had a concerted effort to turn her into the ‘historically unpopular’ candidate she was continually described as. There are a lot of factors into that, but laying it all at the feet of Hillary like she inherently was just too hateable or something ignores how much effort, ink, and pixels were dedicated to tearing her down from all angles.

I feel it is also a good time to point out the horrendously effective GOP effort to significantly suppress the vote in states like Michigan, Wisconsin and North Carolina.

60
GlutenFreeJesus  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:31:19pm

re: #52 Backwoods_Sleuth

Trump is go to hand him over. No doubt in my mind.

61
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:31:38pm
62
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:32:53pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

For fuck’s sake…

63
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:33:30pm

And it just goes on and on.


Texas billionaire and GOP fundraiser considered for Mexico ambassador, report says

Toby Neugebauer, a 45-year-old billionaire and the son of U.S. Rep. Randy Neugebauer, R-Lubbock, is reportedly under consideration for a diplomatic post that carries extra importance after President-elect Donald Trump began his campaign by referring to some Mexicans as “rapists” and criminals and repeatedly calling for a wall to be built on the U.S.-Mexico border.

“I’ve not heard his name being brought up for that position, but admittedly on that one, I haven’t discussed that ambassadorship with the - with the team that’s working on all those,” Trump spokesman Jason Miller said of Neugebauer in a call with reporters on Monday.

Neugebauer told the Post that he understands border security and wants to build a wall along the U.S.-Mexico border.

“If I am asked to do it, I would view it as an act of service,” Neugebauer said to the Post.

Read more here: sanluisobispo.com

64
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:33:33pm

re: #58 S’latch

Never. Because it’s true. And if the Democrats run a candidate like her again, the Democrats will lose again.

Whereas the GOP can now run all the Trumps they want and will win…

65
GlutenFreeJesus  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:33:39pm

re: #38 Backwoods_Sleuth

I’m wondering if they might not be protesters.

But it is Texas…

66
Rocky-in-Connecticut  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:33:59pm

re: #60 GlutenFreeJesus

Trump is go to hand him over. No doubt in my mind.

Trump already has a car service called, lined up, ready to go to put him on the quickest flight from JFK.

67
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:34:04pm
68
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:34:22pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

“Faith Spotted Eagle?” What, was “Sweet Meteor O’ Death” ineligible?

69
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:34:56pm

re: #57 Citizen K

The media did it to Hillary Clinton … to elect Donald Trump? I don’t think so.

70
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:35:31pm

re: #64 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

Whereas the GOP can now run all the Trumps they want and will win…

Pretty much this. Being a Democrat in and of itself is already working off a handicap. And if you think that Hillary was some uniquely flawed monstrosity of a candidate, then I don’t know what to say. Hillary may have been targeted for several decades, but it’s goddamn folly to think that what happened to her couldn’t happen to anyone else, given enough of the same ratfucking she received via the media.

71
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:35:40pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

Funny how before the election we were all talking about the GOP being in tatters. Turns out we were right; we just got the party wrong.

72
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:36:17pm

I can’t believe what I’m fucking hearing from some here, all this “woe is me” shit that America is done, through, finito because Cheeto Jesus and the GOP have won. You want to help your friends, your family, your country hold on to what progress this country has made over the past century, we’re gonna have to fight for it, in the streets, in the media and online, and in the halls of government.

The promise that is the United States of America is still worth fighting for, so don’t let the bastards have the satisfaction.

73
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:36:28pm

re: #64 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

Whereas the GOP can now run all the Trumps they want and will win…

… because they have enough Bumfuck Counties to sustain them until the demographics eventually weed them out of relevance. Then successive generations will be left footing the bill.

74
Jack Burton  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:36:43pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

Francis: “They just made the list too.”

75
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:36:50pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

76
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:36:51pm

re: #64 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

77
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:38:03pm

re: #72 TedStriker

My anger at the Republicans is going to ferment for 4 years.

I am going to become incredibly mean to Republicans.

78
Smith25's Liberal Thighs  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:38:56pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

Populism does not speak to minority voters…

79
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:39:14pm

So, which is it?

The NYT loveletter about Mulvaney:
In Mick Mulvaney, Trump Finds Anti-Establishment Leader for Budget Office
sample:
Mr. Mulvaney has now found a political home where he can stand out.
He has often served as an articulate spokesman for the right’s spending and social-policy positions, far more than many other Freedom Caucus members, who often seem more concerned with self-promotion than policy persuasion.

nytimes.com

or Steve Benen, MSNBC

Why Mick Mulvaney may be one of Trump’s most alarming picks
sample:
Reviewing the Republican congressman’s record, “sanity” is not the first word that comes to mind. Mulvaney, for example, is a Tea Partier who helped create the right-wing House Freedom Caucus…Trump has made a variety of alarming personnel decisions in recent weeks. This one is among the worst.

msnbc.com

I’m going with Benen (about the best thing left at MSNBC) arrggh.

80
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:39:57pm

re: #68 Myron Falwell (no relation)

“Faith Spotted Eagle?” What, was “Sweet Meteor O’ Death” ineligible?

81
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:40:51pm

re: #77 Ziggy_TARDIS

stop it

82
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:40:59pm

re: #69 S’latch

The media did it to Hillary Clinton … to elect Donald Trump? I don’t think so.

To get ratings with a horse race narrative thinking no way an ass like Trump would actually get elected? I do think so.

83
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:41:01pm

re: #76 S’latch

Bernie was not that person. He was a back-bencher demagogue, with many of the same flaws as Trump, including the rapey stuff.

Here are a few tastes of what was in store for Sanders, straight out of the Republican playbook: He thinks rape is A-OK. In 1972, when he was 31, Sanders wrote a fictitious essay in which he described a woman enjoying being raped by three men. Yes, there is an explanation for it—a long, complicated one, just like the one that would make clear why the Clinton emails story was nonsense. And we all know how well that worked out.

Then there’s the fact that Sanders was on unemployment until his mid-30s, and that he stole electricity from a neighbor after failing to pay his bills, and that he co-sponsored a bill to ship Vermont’s nuclear waste to a poor Hispanic community in Texas, where it could be dumped. You can just see the words “environmental racist” on Republican billboards. And if you can’t, I already did. They were in the Republican opposition research book as a proposal on how to frame the nuclear waste issue.

Also on the list: Sanders violated campaign finance laws, criticized Clinton for supporting the 1994 crime bill that he voted for, and he voted against the Amber Alert system. His pitch for universal health care would have been used against him too, since it was tried in his home state of Vermont and collapsed due to excessive costs. Worst of all, the Republicans also had video of Sanders at a 1985 rally thrown by the leftist Sandinista government in Nicaragua where half a million people chanted, “Here, there, everywhere/the Yankee will die,” while President Daniel Ortega condemned “state terrorism” by America. Sanders said, on camera, supporting the Sandinistas was “patriotic.”

The Republicans had at least four other damning Sanders videos (I don’t know what they showed), and the opposition research folder was almost 2-feet thick. (The section calling him a communist with connections to Castro alone would have cost him Florida.) In other words, the belief that Sanders would have walked into the White House based on polls taken before anyone really attacked him is a delusion built on a scaffolding of political ignorance.

84
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:41:20pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

You mean like…Bernie?

Fuck that noise….it’s become much more obvious here lately that he has more in common, where it really counts, with Trump than with Hillary or the Democrats.

85
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:41:44pm
86
Bass Reeves  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:41:57pm

re: #69 S’latch

Please, disregard all data and continue adhering with your feelings. That’s the takeaway for America now, innit? The flaw with Hillary Clinton is that she isn’t an old white guy. Apparently 8 years was all America could take of not having a wrinkly penis making decisions for the world.

87
Eric The Fruit Bat  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:42:03pm

re: #77 Ziggy_TARDIS

re: #81 Backwoods_Sleuth

The (R) next to a US politician’s name = Russia.

88
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:42:26pm

re: #78 Smith25’s Liberal Thighs

Well, we’re fucked then. Just keep nominating status-quo candidates who lack the required emotional connection to get people out in the states that matter. Keep nominating entitled insiders for the confused and angry working-class Americans to reject.

89
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:43:38pm

re: #87 Eric The Fruit Bat

I’ll be stealing that.

90
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:43:41pm

re: #26 lawhawk

[Embedded content]

In 2020, the Democratic Party should not allow anyone who is not a Democrat run on the Democratic ticket. This is the lesson Bernistans have taught me.

91
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:43:47pm

re: #88 S’latch

Well, we’re fucked then. Just keep nominating status-quo candidates who lack the required emotional connection to get people out in the states that matter. Keep nominating entitled insiders for the confused and angry white working-class Americans to reject.

FTFY, ass.

92
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:43:54pm

re: #83 Ziggy_TARDIS

I did not say that Bernie would have won.

93
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:45:51pm

re: #77 Ziggy_TARDIS

My anger at the Republicans is going to ferment for 4 years.

I am going to become incredibly mean to Republicans.

I do not condone that, only because it’s a reaction that the Republicans want. Remember that Republicans were so consumed by hate after 2008, that hate ultimately manifesting itself as the “Tea Party.”

They WANT you to get mean. They WANT you to react. They couldn’t care less about the health of the republic.

94
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:45:54pm

re: #92 S’latch

You seem to be doing a some sort of defense of him. The Berners need to shut up. I will be assisting with that in Texas. I am to squelch them.

95
Bass Reeves  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:46:14pm

re: #88 S’latch

We’ve nominated a woman before?

96
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:46:33pm

re: #63 Skip Intro

So only Military Officers and Billionaires need apply for positions in Trump’s administration, I see. Interesting for a so called “blue collar” billionaire.
newsweek.com

97
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:46:42pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed no such thing. The GOP ended up with a demagogue whose entire policy position consists of Trust Me. Only I can make America Great. Every time he was pressed during the debates with Clinton, his lies and clear inability to address the question was exhibited.

Clinton wasn’t a weak candidate by any stretch, and going up against a media that was primed to find fault with everything she ever did - no matter that there was never any criminal actions, combined with a GOP witch hunt stretching back for years that continues to have found nothing, and an FBI that dropped a MOAB on the campaign with just days to go that the so-called investigation into Clinton emails was suddenly back in business because of new emails discovered, only to reverse themselves to much less fanfare because there wasn’t anything new discovered (and there’s still questions over how Comey and the NY office politicized their office/position to give Trump more ammo against Clinton all while ignoring Trump’s clear problems with his Russia ties.

Oh, and Trump himself would divert attention from his own problems by saying Clinton was doing the very things Trump actually did.

Trump’s foundation was a slush fund. Clinton’s was all above the board with tax returns available for all time periods.
Trump refused to show tax returns for any time period (and continues to hide from the clear conflicts of interest). Clinton again had all tax returns available, but she was labeled as the evasive one.

It was layer upon layer of BS, with media mendacity, a GOP that refused to push out the deplorables who form the core of the party and are openly in the thrall of white supremacists and bigots, who look the other way as Russia helps tilt the playing field with leaks that favor only one candidate, etc.

So, no it wasn’t that Clinton was a bad candidate, or even a poor candidate.

Not when she beat Trump by 2+ points in the national election count, but she failed by about 100k votes in a handful of states critical to winning the EC. And those voters will be sorely disappointed when they begin to realize that they’re the marks and Trump is the con artist he’s always been.

Oh, and while we’re at it - throw in the GOP efforts for voter suppression in key states throughout the midwest and South that also limited Clinton support.

98
Bass Reeves  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:46:44pm

re: #93 Myron Falwell (no relation)

This is a funny way of fighting fascism.

100
Sherlock Hound  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:47:07pm

re: #76 S’latch

What’s wrong with the status quo? Some of us have had to work for many years towards incremental change. I have done this in the disability community for years.

Tear it down?

That’s what a lot of Bernistas want.

But in an all-or-nothing proposition, before there’s anything, there’s nothing.

That scares me to death. For I, and my friends and colleagues, perhaps literally.

101
Franklin  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:47:16pm

re: #96 Patricia Kayden

So only Military Officers and Billionaires need apply for positions in Trump’s administration, I see. Interesting for a so called “blue collar” billionaire.
newsweek.com

BS.

There are a few millionaires too. ;)

102
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:47:30pm

re: #88 S’latch

Well, we’re fucked then. Just keep nominating status-quo candidates who lack the required emotional connection to get people out in the states that matter. Keep nominating entitled insiders for the confused and angry working-class Americans to reject.

Oh yes, let’s do start putting racists, misogynists, homophobes, and xenophobes in front of the party to get those WWC votes. WTF

103
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:47:36pm

re: #75 Kragar

BREAKING: WA Electoral college presidential results: 8 votes Hillary Clinton, 3 votes Colin Powell, 1 “Faith Spotted Eagle”

— KOMO News

Is this a joke?

104
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:48:16pm

re: #91 TedStriker

I have experienced this here so many times, but I do not care. I try to get you folks to see what I saw very early on about Hillary Clinton.

I fucking voted for her! I am talking about the people who didn’t. And you folks still attack me and refuse to acknowledge the fatal weakness of Hillary Clinton as a winning candidate.

I guess we will see what happens in 2020. Run another candidate like her, and it will happen again.

105
sagehen  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:48:28pm

re: #44 allegro

Is it too early to start drinking?

Is it after Nov 9?

Then no, it’s not too early to start drinking.

106
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:48:44pm

re: #96 Patricia Kayden

Does anyone have up to date figures on the total net worth of Trump’s cabinet of billionaires?

107
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:35pm

re: #104 S’latch

I have experiences this here so many times, but I do not care. I try to get you folks so see what I saw very early on about Hillary Clinton.

I fucking voted for her! I am talking about the people who didn’t. And you folks still attack me and refuse to acknowledge the fatal weakness of Hillary Clinton as a winning candidate.

I guess we will see what happens in 2020. Run another candidate like her, and it will happen again.

There is no other candidate like her, nor will there be.

108
sagehen  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:37pm

re: #46 S’latch

Bernie would have lost by even more.

Joe Biden, on the other hand….

109
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:42pm

re: #93 Myron Falwell (no relation)

I do not condone that, only because it’s a reaction that the Republicans want. Remember that Republicans were so consumed by hate after 2008, that hate ultimately manifesting itself as the “Tea Party.”

They WANT you to get mean. They WANT you to react. They couldn’t care less about the health of the republic.

But Republican meanness worked wonderfully for them. They control the Executive, Legislative and Judicial branches of government and upwards of 30 state governorships. They’re running things and their Tea Bagger rebellion pushed Republicans to the hard right.

Our side needs to do the same or continue to be irrelevant.

110
PhillyPretzel  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:45pm

re: #103 Sir John Barron

No. Look up thread for more information. I am sorry I do not remember the number of the post.

111
Smith25's Liberal Thighs  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:49pm

re: #88 S’latch

Well, we’re fucked then. Just keep nominating status-quo candidates

Speaking as a minority voter, this is wrong. Hillary Clinton ran the most minority-centric campaign of any candidate ever. She ran a more explicitly pro-black campaign than even Barack Obama.

Who lack the required emotional connection to get people out in the states that matter.

I’ll concede that some voters require an emotional connection. I’ll also point out that many voters did emotionally connect with Clinton. I’ll also point out that negative emotional attacks and Voter ID laws have an effect. Plus, it takes work, but newer states will matter soon(Georgia, Arizona)

Keep nominating entitled insiders for the confused and angry Whiteworking-class Americans to reject.

Fixed this part for you.

112
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:49:59pm

re: #57 Citizen K

I feel this is a good time to point this out:

[Embedded content]

The entire problem wasn’t inherent. Hillary had a concerted effort to turn her into the ‘historically unpopular’ candidate she was continually described as. There are a lot of factors into that, but laying it all at the feet of Hillary like she inherently was just too hateable or something ignores how much effort, ink, and pixels were dedicated to tearing her down from all angles.

And let’s not forget what kind of candidate Trump was—a deplorable one—but lots of “values voters” voted for him anyway.

113
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:50:21pm

re: #104 S’latch

I have experiences this here so many times, but I do not care. I try to get you folks so see what I saw very early on about Hillary Clinton.

I fucking voted for her! I am talking about the people who didn’t. And you folks still attack me and refuse to acknowledge the fatal weakness of Hillary Clinton as a winning candidate.

I guess we will see what happens in 2020. Run another candidate like her, and it will happen again.

There’s that “fatal weakness” bullshit again.

114
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:51:37pm

re: #111 Smith25’s Liberal Thighs

Bernie is a non-trivial part of the reason Hillary lost.

115
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:51:40pm

re: #108 sagehen

Bernie would have lost by even more.

Joe Biden, on the other hand….

…had enough sense to keep out of this clusterfuck

116
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:23pm

re: #113 TedStriker

There’s that “fatal weakness” bullshit again.

The “fatal weakness” was not of a candidate but of a system. We work in a system that literally rewards mendacity, punishes transparency, and above all prioritizes eyeballs and views over anything fucking resembling the truth. And more than anything else, allows projection to go unexamined or unchallenged, because hey, “BOTH SIDES SAME THING!”

117
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:27pm

re: #112 Sir John Barron

And let’s not forget what kind of candidate Trump was—a deplorable one—but lots of “values voters” voted for him anyway.

Because, in the end, the only “value” the “values voters” were all for was to win at all costs and everything else be damned.

118
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:37pm

re: #102 allegro

I never said that, and to debate that way is so dishonest.

My objection to Hillary Clinton is so simple. Her personality kind of sucks. She isn’t a bad person. She just does not connect with most people. It’s not that complicated.

119
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:41pm

re: #115 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

I think Biden would have been perfect for dealing with Trump though.

120
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:43pm

re: #114 Ziggy_TARDIS

Bernie is a non-trivial part of the reason Hillary lost.

Possibly the least important one to focus on now and in the future.

121
Franklin  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:52:56pm

Is it “relitigate the primary” day again? Man, the week really flies by!

122
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:53:05pm

re: #61 Backwoods_Sleuth

[Embedded content]

Is this an “Our Candidate Lost So I’ll Just Do This Crazy Thing Here” issue?

123
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:53:12pm

re: #98 Bass Reeves

re: #109 Patricia Kayden

To clarify, direct the anger properly and usefully. Vowing to be angry at Republicans just because doesn’t really help.

Make it a systematic and unrelenting approach.

124
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:53:16pm

re: #119 Ziggy_TARDIS

You are absolutely correct. In hindsight, Joe Biden would have been able to do it.

And not because he’s a guy and she’s a gal. He has a likable personality. She really doesn’t.

125
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:53:39pm

Hillary was on the defensive from day one. Trump should have been, but the media just let him slide on his taxes, his bankruptcy, his frauds, his conflicts of interests, and his temperament.

The media may not have been on his side, but by ignoring all of his faults while focusing like a laser on Hillarys they may as well have been.

126
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:54:15pm

re: #120 wrenchwench

Not in the fact that his supporters need to blocked from power from as many state Democratic parties as possible. They are unreliable voters, have Jacobin/reactionary ways of acting, and do not understand pragmatism.

They need to be blocked.

127
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:55:05pm

re: #115 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

…had enough sense to keep out of this clusterfuck

It’s not that he had the sense to keep out, but he didn’t have the heart. With all that he and his family had been through recently, I don’t blame him for not throwing his hat in. The campaign stress was not something I’d wish on a family still in mourning, especially with the shit show it turned into.

128
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:55:16pm
129
sagehen  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:55:21pm

re: #60 GlutenFreeJesus

Trump is go to hand him over. No doubt in my mind.

Not if he scampers to Canada quick enough…

130
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:55:59pm

re: #126 Ziggy_TARDIS

Not in the fact that his supporters need to blocked from power from as many state Democratic parties as possible. They are unreliable voters, have Jacobin/reactionary ways of acting, and do not understand pragmatism.

They need to be blocked.

So work at the lower levels in the state parties and never mention his name again.

131
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:56:30pm

re: #118 S’latch

I never said that, and to debate that way is so dishonest.

My objection to Hillary Clinton is so simple. Her personality kind of sucks. She isn’t a bad person. She just does not connect with most people. It’s not that complicated.

You didn’t have to say that - to deny that these are the reasons the WWC voted for Trump in very large part is to deny reality. He certainly didn’t win on his warm personality that you say the lack of cost Hillary votes. I do agree that it isn’t complicated.

132
Smith25's Liberal Thighs  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:56:47pm

re: #125 Skip Intro

Hillary was on the defensive from day one. Trump should have been, but the media just let him slide on his taxes, his bankruptcy, his frauds, his conflicts of interests, and his temperament.

The media may not have been on his side, buy by ignoring all of his faults while focusing like a laser on Hillarys they may as well have been.

I could never vote for someone who says “Grab em by the pus..EMAILZ!!!1111!”

133
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:57:01pm

re: #114 Ziggy_TARDIS

Bernie is a non-trivial part of the reason Hillary lost.

And he was a perfect access port for a ton of GOP ratfucking up and down the line. and a lot of the well-intentioned, idealistic airheads who supported him did not even notice it half the time, and even enabled or assisted the RFers.

134
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:57:11pm
135
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:57:59pm

re: #97 lawhawk

If the media “was primed to find fault with everything she ever did,” she was a de facto weak candidate.

You can’t argue she wasn’t if you acknowledge that the “media was primed to find fault with everything she ever did.”

Candidates don’t exist in a vacuum.

136
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:58:05pm

re: #116 Citizen K

The “fatal weakness” was not of a candidate but of a system. We work in a system that literally rewards mendacity, punishes transparency, and above all prioritizes eyeballs and views over anything fucking resembling the truth. And more than anything else, allows projection to go unexamined or unchallenged, because hey, “BOTH SIDES SAME THING!”

We have a system in which a candidate with NO RECORD OF PUBLIC SERVICE can come up and say or do whatever he thinks the people need to hear at the moment and get away with it.

137
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:58:31pm

re: #119 Ziggy_TARDIS

I think Biden would have been perfect for dealing with Trump though.

But he chose not to, and I have to respect his decision.

138
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:58:47pm
139
sagehen  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:58:52pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

And the electorate that re-elected pretty much all the same Congressmen, Senators, governors, state legislatures, mayors, etc?

Status quo doesn’t seem to be as out of favor as you’re suggesting.

140
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 12:59:52pm

re: #138 JasonA

Didn’t Alex Jones say they were keeping them hidden on the dark side of the moon? I guess the joke’s on him!

141
Eric The Fruit Bat  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:01:40pm
142
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:04:18pm

re: #139 sagehen

And the electorate the re-elected pretty much all the same Congressmen, Senators, governors, state legislatures, mayors, etc?

Status quo doesn’t seem to be as out of favor as you’re suggesting.

A lot of Trump supporters just fucking hate politicians and politics as usual. They hate the GOP nearly as much as they hate the Democrats, and voted for Trump to spite them both.

143
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:06:56pm
144
Clearly a Country For Sick Old Haters  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:07:19pm

re: #1 Kragar

For our life time, America’s best days are behind us.

That’s been true for decades. We’ve all experienced the decline that sent rural people off the deep end and got Trump elected. Cars, houses, and education were both much more attainable when my parents were young than they are now, and with just a high school education.

We’ve made social gains recently that may be lost, but we’ve been suffering economically for a long time.

145
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:07:24pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

The status-quo is actually pretty good. Unemployment, gas prices, inflation, crime, are all down. Economy is growing. We’re not occupying any countries. But Trump made enough people think the country was a hell-hole, so here we are.

146
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:07:52pm

re: #139 sagehen

I’m talking about the presidential election, but whatever.

I don’t understand why everyone here has to keep forcing the argument that Hillary Clinton was great candidate and she only lost because of unfair forces aligned against her.

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

Do you acknowledge that people have gut instincts that they follow? How do you address that aspect of a human electorate?

We certainly would win big if we had an electorate that was comprised of a majority of Vulcan beings instead of humans.

147
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:08:49pm

re: #142 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

A lot of Trump supporters just fucking hate politicians and politics as usual. They hate the GOP nearly as much as they hate the Democrats, and voted for Trump to spite them both.

And then voted for every down-ticket Republican incumbent because?

I’d say a lot of Trump supporters hated that we had the audacity to elect a black president for two terms and were going to let their hateful freak flag fly. YMMV

148
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:09:00pm

re: #145 Sir John Barron

The status-quo is actually pretty good. Unemployment, gas prices, inflation, crime, are all down. Economy is growing. We’re not occupying any countries. But Trump made enough people think the country was a hell-hole, so here we are.

More people with health insurance, too—some 20+ million more. A consumer protection agency was created, new Wall Street regulations established, the country’s auto-industry preserved. Pretty hard to improve on that.

149
sagehen  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:09:09pm

re: #142 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

A lot of Trump supporters just fucking hate politicians and politics as usual. They hate the GOP nearly as much as they hate the Democrats, and voted for Trump to spite them both.

He didn’t win even close to a majority of Republican primary voters.

But come the general, how many people just automatically go straight party line without taking a minute to look at the particular individuals wearing that party’s banner?

150
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:09:54pm

re: #144 Clearly a Country For Sick Old Haters

That’s been true for decades. We’ve all experienced the decline that sent rural people off the deep end and got Trump elected. Cars, houses, and education were both much more attainable when my parents were young than they are now, and with just a high school education.

We’ve made social gains recently that may be lost, but we’ve been suffering economically for a long time.

My dad was a steel mill worker with a high school degree who could afford a house, a car (simple but adequate) and could still afford to put his kids through (state) college.

That dream has been dead for decades.

151
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:10:19pm

re: #146 S’latch

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

I didn’t see anything like that.
I’m a registered Republican and I voted for her without hesitation.

152
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:10:32pm

re: #144 Clearly a Country For Sick Old Haters

True, but at least we had the belief that maybe we could turn that around.

Not anymore

153
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:11:44pm

re: #135 S’latch

If the media “was primed to find fault with everything she ever did,” she was a de facto weak candidate.

You can’t argue she wasn’t if you acknowledge that the “media was primed to find fault with everything she ever did.”

Candidates don’t exist in a vacuum.

That isn’t even remotely close to being de facto. The media was primed to find fault because she’s got a very public and long history. There’s a history of GOP efforts to smear her endlessly with her husband’s scandals (or nonscandals). All of which turned up nothing on her.

Benghazi? Years of investigations turned up nothing. There never was anything to them, but the media dutifully reported every utterance and event as though the next one would lead to the indictment. HA Goodman ring a bell? Idiots like that helped Trump more than one would care to admit because they believed their own BS.

Meanwhile, Trump’s actions - which were demonstrably and unequivocally true - were ignored.

Trump U? Ignored. He scammed thousands of people; settled for $25 million with state AGs.

Trump Foundation? NY AG found it improperly soliciting funds - that’s illegal in plain English.

Trump claimed to be charitable, but no evidence of Trump ever donating to anyone.

Buy American? Trump couldn’t be bothered to find US workers, and instead went overseas to have his clothing lines made in China and Mexico. There’s plenty of US clothing manufacturers, esp. for the “high” end that Trump claims to be part of with his clothing line. He went overseas to maximize his profits.

Each one of these, had Clinton done them, would have sunk her campaign. Trump did all of them, and was never held accountable for any of them.

Heck, Trump admitted to sexually assaulting women. The women even came forward to corroborate them. The media spun based on Trump’s projection - what about Bill.

So spare me the BS about how Clinton was a weak candidate.

154
Jack Burton  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:12:51pm

re: #142 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

A lot of Trump supporters just fucking hate politicians and politics as usual. They hate the GOP nearly as much as they hate the Democrats, and voted for Trump to spite them both.

That’s because they are the common clay of the New West.

They think politicians are spineless, self-serving, and out of touch with their version of reality, which they believe holds very simple solutions to all of the world’s problems but the politicians are too afraid or PC to implement. Yet *their* representative… oh well that’s different.

Then they also tend to overwhelmingly believe in Noah’s Ark too.

155
Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:13:02pm

re: #146 S’latch

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

She unfortunately had the sort of background and personality that made all the shit slung at her stick. It worked against Dukakis, Gore and Kerry but it failed against Obama, despite them getting out the big guns.

But Hillary gave them a chance to dig out their tried and true playbook and run it clean home.

156
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:13:28pm

re: #146 S’latch

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

Do you acknowledge that people have gut instincts that they follow? How do you address that aspect of a human electorate?

I have met men who felt that way (one or two), but I have not met a woman who felt that way.

157
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:13:38pm

re: #146 S’latch

I’m talking about the presidential election, but whatever.

I don’t understand why everyone here has to keep forcing the argument that Hillary Clinton was great candidate and she only lost because of unfair forces aligned against her.

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

Do you acknowledge that people have gut instincts that they follow? How do you address that aspect of a human electorate?

We certainly would win big if we had an electorate that was comprised of a majority of Vulcan beings instead of humans.

Gallup has followed Clinton’s favorable/unfavorables for years, and each time she ran for office, her favorables went down - a smear campaign. This time, it worked even better when you had someone who never found a lie he couldn’t project on to others (Trump). Watch Clinton’s favorables soar as Trump’s favorables continue to tank.

158
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:14:34pm

re: #151 Backwoods_Sleuth

I saw it. Others saw it too. The fact that you didn’t see it, or refused to acknowledge it, is a problem.

159
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:16:10pm

re: #155 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

She unfortunately had the sort of background and personality gender that made all the shit slung at her stick. It worked against Dukakis, Gore and Kerry but it failed to against Obama, despite them getting out the big guns.

But Hillary gave them a chance to dig out their tried and true playbook and run it clean home.

FTFY

160
Charles Johnson  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:16:21pm
161
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:16:22pm

re: #76 S’latch

We needed a populist this year. We ran a status-quo candidate with the baggage of being like some entitled legacy candidate.

yeah, and political correctness is all about Trade agreements.

sigh.

162
Resistance Is Not Futile  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:16:29pm

re: #147 BeachDem

And then voted for every down-ticket Republican incumbent because?

I’d say a lot of Trump supporters hated that we had the audacity to elect a black president for two terms and were going to let their hateful freak flag fly. YMMV

Actually, Democrats gained seats in both houses, despite the Republican at the top of that ticket.

163
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:19:55pm

re: #123 Myron Falwell (no relation)

“Make it a systematic and unrelenting approach.”

Indeed. We need a Tea Party on the Left to push Democrats to the left and to resist Trump just like Republicans allowed Tea Baggers to push them to the right and resist Obama.

164
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:21:42pm

re: #55 Backwoods_Sleuth

Sad and awful on so many levels. These kinds of terrorist attacks (presuming this is terrorism) will only lead to more rightwing takeovers of governments throughout Europe. R.I.P. to those who lost their lives in Germany in this attack.

165
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:21:42pm

re: #157 lawhawk

Gallup has followed Clinton’s favorable/unfavorables for years, and each time she ran for office, her favorables went down - a smear campaign. This time, it worked even better when you had someone who never found a lie he couldn’t project on to others (Trump). Watch Clinton’s favorables soar as Trump’s favorables continue to tank.

Was just looking for some infor that backs this up:

It’s simple: Public opinion of Clinton has followed a fixed pattern throughout her career. Her public approval plummets whenever she applies for a new position. Then it soars when she gets the job. The wild difference between the way we talk about Clinton when she campaigns and the way we talk about her when she’s in office can’t be explained as ordinary political mud-slinging. Rather, the predictable swings of public opinion reveal Americans’ continued prejudice against women caught in the act of asking for power. We beg Clinton to run, and then accuse her of feeling “entitled” to win.

qz.com

166
Amory Blaine  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:21:54pm

re: #1 Kragar

For our life time, America’s best days are behind us.

Wait until all these dummies realize none of their unicorns are real. Then they’ll pull out their arsenals and second amendment the rest of us.

167
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:21:54pm

re: #163 Patricia Kayden

We can not count on the Berners to vote for Democrats.

It would be better to take The exact positions Clinton had, and stick with them. Until the Berners go up, we stay.

We will lose more votes going to the left than we will gain right now.

168
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:21:58pm

re: #158 S’latch

I saw it. Others saw it too. The fact that you didn’t see it, or refused to acknowledge it, is a problem.

good fucking grief.
Do not tell me what I “refuse to acknowledge”.

jesus fucking christ…

169
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:22:45pm

re: #166 Amory Blaine

Yeah, I have flipped back on the 2nd Amendment.

170
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:23:19pm

re: #157 lawhawk

Okay. I’ll try to see it your way.

I supposed to reject what I knew in my gut because of some polls somewhere. Those poll thingies that ripped my guts out on November 8, 2016 and left me feeling sick for weeks and which continues?

Like so many people that I know, I saw Hillary Clinton from day-one as a cold, mechanical, entitled, questionable, etc. Flawed.

But, now I am just supposed to see her as a candidate in a vacuum who would have inspired a landslide on November 8 but for the unfairness of some lies told against her. People were ready to flock to the booths to vote for her.

Okay.

171
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:24:14pm
172
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:24:54pm
173
makeitstop  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:25:33pm

re: #170 S’latch

People were ready to flock to the booths to vote for her.

Okay.

She won the pop vote by nearly 3 million votes, dude.

People did flock to the polls to vote for her, no matter how flawed you think she is.

This is a fact.

174
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:25:47pm

re: #168 Backwoods_Sleuth

good fucking grief.
Do not tell me what I “refuse to acknowledge”.

jesus fucking christ…

I wonder whether he doesn’t see the gender issue…

/

175
makeitstop  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:26:14pm

re: #171 Kragar

[Embedded content]

Didn’t that idea originate here?

176
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:26:37pm

re: #163 Patricia Kayden

“Make it a systematic and unrelenting approach.”

Indeed. We need a Tea Party on the Left to push Democrats to the left and to resist Trump just like Republicans allowed Tea Baggers to push them to the right and resist Obama.

The Tea Party had/has no principles except an embrace of nihilism. Different story here. This coordinated resistance is out of a desire to preserve as much as possible, not the desire to burn every damn thing down.

177
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:26:49pm

re: #175 makeitstop

No clue

178
makeitstop  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:27:29pm

re: #177 Kragar

No clue

I could swear someone posted that idea here a week or two ago.

179
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:27:42pm

re: #174 wrenchwench

I wonder whether he doesn’t see the gender issue…

/

THIS!
In Kentucky I know that people did not vote for her because: guns, abortion, and she refused to say she would bring back the coal mines.
But the #1 reason I heard from people here was: “I can’t vote for a woman.”

180
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:28:27pm

re: #166 Amory Blaine

Wait until all these dummies realize none of their unicorns are real. Then they’ll pull out their arsenals and second amendment the rest of us.

You’ll have a bloody civil war and an irreparable fracturing of the republic.

181
Sherlock Hound  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:28:47pm

re: #146 S’latch

DOES. NOT. MATTER.

You’re voting for a manager. Not your best friend. I consider myself a loyal Democrat. I didn’t connect with Gore, nor with Kerry, but both of them had my vote out of strategy. I don’t regret that one bit. I came to like and respect Kerry after he took over the SoS from Hillary, and I think we will miss him.

I voted for Clinton out of a similar strategic plan:. She was the first candidate to listen to the disabled and form a policy on our needs.

An odd thing happened to me during this election season: The more I listened to Mrs. Clinton, the more affirmed I felt. I really got to like her as a person. I had, and have mad respect for her.

Then 3 AM on 11/9 happened.

I hadn’t felt so bad since Mom died. I’m a 53-year old white man.

Don’t talk to me about “likeability”.

182
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:29:52pm

re: #161 blueraven

yeah, and political correctness is all about Trade agreements.

sigh.

Not to say Hillary and her campaign (and Bill) didn’t make mistakes. They did.

I think some of the more critical ones were:

Basket of Deplorables (never insult the voters: politics 101)
Bill’s tarmac meeting with L. Lynch. (this set up the entire Comey spectacle)
Hillary’s language about Coal country. (mostly just inartful, but sounded really bad)

These things pale in comparison to what Trump did and said. But in the end the emails were covered more harshly than anything.

183
Eric The Fruit Bat  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:30:33pm

re: #150 Wendell Zurkowitz ((slave to the waffle light))

My dad was a steel mill worker with a high school degree who could afford a house, a car (simple but adequate) and could still afford to put his kids through (state) college.

That dream has been dead for decades.

Our whole secondary and trade education systems need a top-to-bottom purge and the way we approach higher education needs a serious reevaluation.

I only have a High School diploma and a Java Certificate that I don’t use-yet I earn a pretty good living in my field in IT working on mainframes-y’know, those beasts that some asshole said the last one would be unplugged in the mid-1990s? Yet few colleges even teach mainframe-related courses, and many corporations have resorted to building their own inhouse mainframe training courses. I actually believe I could come up with a High School curriculum where I could teach these skills so that these graduates could actually walk out of High School into a major corporation into an internship and br productive. Why? Becuase I learned how to program COBOL before I learned how to drive a car.

In 1975.

But it’s going to require some changes in mindset to make this happen. And it’s been all too easy for cost-cutters to offshore-but many have found that offshore savings wasn’t all it was cracked up to be-many stateside firms wind up having to re-train resources assigned to the client because the individual assigned to the client quit the outsourcer to go to work for someone else who paid a $1/hr more.

When you race to the bottom-the bottom is where you end up.

184
Sherlock Hound  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:33:42pm

re: #183 Eric The Fruit Bat

I miss working on mainframes….<3

185
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:35:25pm
186
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:36:13pm
187
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:37:08pm

re: #162 Resistance Is Not Futile

Actually, Democrats gained seats in both houses, despite the Republican at the top of that ticket.

Trump’s margin of victory matched or exceeded those of Todd Young in Indiana and Sen. Richard Burr in North Carolina. Wisconsin Sen. Ron Johnson, who embraced Trump despite expectations the GOP nominee lose his historically Democratic-leaning state, surged late in the race and benefited from Trump’s stunning performance there. Incumbents Roy Blunt in Missouri and Pat Toomey won as well

cnn.com
The two senate seats were picked up in blue states (IL, NH)—in the house, Florida was the only non-Dem state where seats flipped to Dems, and other seats flipped to Rep because Florida. (I think these #s are correct, but don’t have time to double check.

188
lawhawk  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:37:43pm

re: #170 S’latch

You’re going to hang your hat on the polls?

National polls actually got it pretty much on target - Clinton winning by about 2 points. That’s the current margin.

Where she fell short was in a handful of states, where the polling was within the MOE.

You’re not going to pin any of this on my complaining and telling people to GOTV and not trust or rely on polling to get you through the day (or weeks/months before because you can’t assume any win no matter what 538 or PEC or NYT were saying about the polls and Clinton’s chances). The reality is that there were a laundry list of reasons you can explain for Clinton’s loss.

But that she was a failed candidate isn’t one of them. You don’t win the popular vote by more than 2 points (which translates to millions of votes) by being the failed candidate. Sorry, it just doesn’t work that way.

Enough people in enough states decided to sit out or had votes suppressed or decided to vote for the village idiot. Take your pick.

She went up against a candidate who made promises to people who were willing to buy his BS and defend his BS, even as he flip flopped. These are people who want to break government. They want to sabotage it, so facts and logic don’t even enter into any of the discussion.

What strategy do you have to defeat that? We’re all ears, because we’ll need one in 4 years time.

189
Amory Blaine  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:37:59pm

There are way too many jobs that require a college degree that could be filled by a minor training period.

190
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:38:49pm

re: #58 S’latch

Never. Because it’s true. And if the Democrats run a candidate like her again, the Democrats will lose again.

Yeah. God fucking forbid that the democrats run the single most qualified person in the country as our nominee for president.

Jesus fucking Christ.

191
Amory Blaine  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:39:29pm

People that come out of the jungles of Thailand are sophisticated enough to build the world’s hard drives but a McDonald’s manager needs a college degree? GTFOH

192
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:40:43pm

re: #104 S’latch

I have experienced this here so many times, but I do not care. I try to get you folks to see what I saw very early on about Hillary Clinton.

I fucking voted for her! I am talking about the people who didn’t. And you folks still attack me and refuse to acknowledge the fatal weakness of Hillary Clinton as a winning candidate.

I guess we will see what happens in 2020. Run another candidate like her, and it will happen again.

Another candidate like her: you mean someone who is educated, erudite, experienced, qualified, who is not a racist, not a sexist, and not a homophobe?

193
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:43:46pm

re: #171 Kragar

[Embedded content]

littlegreenfootballs.com

True genius seldom reconized etc.
/

194
Amory Blaine  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:45:35pm

I have a STEM degree. It’s “only” a civil engineering degree but I make more money and have more freedom relying on my “pre-schooling” acquired skills. Civil engineers get paid pretty shit unless you run your own place or climb some government hierarchy for 20 years.

195
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:46:56pm

re: #189 Amory Blaine

There are way too many jobs that require a college degree that could be filled by a minor training period.

It’s a socialization filter.

196
Tyrion  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:47:24pm

I remember in 08 when Obama was going against Hillary, all the Hillbots that were online and constantly fighting for her. This year didn’t seem like she had the same people supporting her online. Obviously, anecdotal, but I always wondered why these people(PUMA’s) didn’t seem to be as prominent this election cycle.

197
Shiplord Kirel  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:48:36pm

re: #75 Kragar

BREAKING: WA Electoral college presidential results: 8 votes Hillary Clinton, 3 votes Colin Powell, 1 “Faith Spotted Eagle”

RWNJ hate-radio is going to have a lot of fun with this. Thanks, electors.

198
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:49:30pm

re: #192 The Vicious Babushka

Another candidate like her: you mean someone who is educated, erudite, experienced, qualified, who is not a racist, not a sexist, and not a homophobe?

And who has worked on issues of poor women and children since her teen years?

199
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:50:10pm

re: #58 S’latch

Never. Because it’s true. And if the Democrats run a candidate like her again, the Democrats will lose again.

Okay, run a candidate like Sanders and don’t just lose…get pounded. I guess a guy like you just needs to have it demonstrated so that maybe you can learn.

My hypothetical is better than yours!

Why? Look at the 70s and the 80s and then add in that fundamentalism and libertarianism has made this country way more conservative than it was in the era that came after the “Peace and Love” baby boomers and there was no FOX News.

200
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:50:13pm

re: #175 makeitstop

Didn’t that idea originate here?

re: #178 makeitstop

I could swear someone posted that idea here a week or two ago.

I suggested it about 2 weeks ago—(see myhttp://littlegreenfootballs.com above)

201
Kragar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:51:53pm
202
Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:54:37pm

If the Electoral College is NOT supposed to be a rubber stamp is it really in our best interests to have highly partisan electors?

203
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:54:39pm
204
darthstar  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:54:56pm

So…how’d the EC go today? Did Trump have a bunch of defectors? I’ve been too busy to look. Heading into another meeting now. Will check back. My guess is probably not as my phone hasn’t been buzzing with activity.

205
Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:55:26pm

re: #203 Backwoods_Sleuth

“I don’t mean to offend you but…”

206
Stanley Sea  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:55:43pm

re: #178 makeitstop

I could swear someone posted that idea here a week or two ago.

I think it was VB

207
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:55:45pm

FUCKING VOUCHERS

208
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:56:47pm

re: #80 wrenchwench

I honestly had no idea… learn something new every day… 😳

209
Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:57:41pm

re: #207 The Vicious Babushka

210
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:58:11pm

re: #190 MsJ

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, James Buchanan and Martin Van Buren served as Secretary of State before they served as President. But, it’s been more than 150 years since a Secretary of State became President.

And, the single most qualified candidate lost. So, there was something missing. I can’t ignore the fact that her personality failed to connect with me and so many others.

If she runs again in 2020, I will vote for her again.

211
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:58:16pm

re: #206 Stanley Sea

I think it was VB

Not me.

212
Decatur Deb  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:58:32pm

We lost because we underestimated the power of hate and fear. Love and hope apparently require a stronger campaign effort.

213
makeitstop  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:58:50pm

re: #200 BeachDem

I suggested it about 2 weeks ago—(see myhttp://littlegreenfootballs.com above)

I knew it!

My hat is off to you, BeachDem.

214
Stanley Sea  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:59:24pm

re: #193 BeachDem

littlegreenfootballs.com

True genius seldom reconized etc.
/

BEACH DEM!!!

Bad memory me.

215
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:59:44pm

re: #210 S’latch

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, James Buchanan and Martin Van Buren served as Secretary of State before they served as President. But, it’s been more than 150 years since a Secretary of State became President.

And, the single most qualified candidate lost. So, there was something missing. I can’t ignore the fact that her personality failed to connect with me and so many others.

If she runs again in 2020, I will vote for her again.

Go have a beer with trump. Or Dubya. Coz that’s apparently what we want in running the country.

216
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 1:59:59pm

re: #69 S’latch

The media did it to Hillary Clinton … to elect Donald Trump? I don’t think so.

Uh no. The media did it as a narrative. It sells. It sold.

217
retired cynic  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:00:15pm

re: #168 Backwoods_Sleuth

good fucking grief.
Do not tell me what I “refuse to acknowledge”.

jesus fucking christ…

Somebody is getting on my last nerve. And I ignored the first 15 comments. Boy, am I with you!

218
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:00:17pm

re: #156 wrenchwench

I have met men who felt that way (one or two), but I have not met a woman who felt that way.

I certainly have - 3 of my FB friends :( (okay, one of them I only reconnected with post-election - she was a BoB’er - but the other two, I tried to defend and advocate for HRC, but it didn’t do any good. One of them is a 19-year-old who originally supported Sanders, and wound up not voting…the other is the classic well-off GOP suburban mom who wound up writing in a 3rd party candidate - she wouldn’t tell me who, but I strongly suspect McMullin. They live in OK and TX, respectively)

219
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:01:00pm

re: #58 S’latch

Bullshit. Eliminate a few states’ voter suppression efforts and we have President HRC.

220
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:01:01pm

re: #188 lawhawk

She went up against a candidate who made promises to people who were willing to buy his BS and defend his BS, even as he flip flopped. These are people who want to break government. They want to sabotage it, so facts and logic don’t even enter into any of the discussion.

What strategy do you have to defeat that? We’re all ears, because we’ll need one in 4 years time.

That’s if we’re lucky. It’s getting increasingly difficult by the day not to think that the republic could fail completely in less than a year.

221
goddamnedfrank  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:01:25pm

re: #146 S’latch

Can anyone here see that her personality turned a lot of people off, that it made them open to the suggestion that she is dishonest, and untrustworthy?

You misspelled “old vagina.”

222
Eric The Fruit Bat  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:02:12pm

re: #184 Sherlock Hound

I miss working on mainframes….<3

The latest Principles of Operation manual that covers the latest z13 mainframe is over 1,700 pages. Today’s mainframe ins’t like our father’s-not by a longshot.

223
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:02:39pm

re: #210 S’latch

Thomas Jefferson, James Madison, James Monroe, John Quincy Adams, James Buchanan and Martin Van Buren served as Secretary of State before they served as President. But, it’s been more than 150 years since a Secretary of State became President.

And, the single most qualified candidate lost. So, there was something missing. I can’t ignore the fact that her personality failed to connect with me and so many others.

If she runs again in 2020, I will vote for her again.

Maybe the thing missing is that the aforementioned were all white males.

Sexism reeked in this election.

224
Amory Blaine  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:03:23pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

More hateful democrats might help. Enough of these hippie dippy lovers from the 60s already. I want a democrat that’s going to step on the rights neck with a steel toe work boot.

225
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:04:00pm

re: #199 ObserverArt

I am not making the argument that Sanders would have won. I am stating that Hillary Clinton was not as great a candidate as everyone here seems to believe and that she is not blameless for her defeat.

226
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:04:28pm

re: #69 S’latch

The media has been doing it to the Clintons for 25 years. They didn’t start it in anticipation that trump would run - but his “victory” is a lovely, unanticipated result.

227
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:04:50pm

re: #213 makeitstop

I knew it!

My hat is off to you, BeachDem.

Thanks. It’s the marketing/advertising in me. (and the smart assiness that thinks the media should back up their “we did it for ratings” story of running non-stop Trump bullshit.)

Maybe Robert Reich can get it moving! Or somebody with big influence on the big stars.

228
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:04:55pm

re: #215 MsJ

That kind of argument is so dishonest. Why do that?

229
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:06:31pm

re: #228 S’latch

That kind of argument is so dishonest. Why do that?

Perhaps flippant, but ‘dishonest’ is a poor characterization.

230
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:07:16pm

re: #226 Jebediah, RBG

If the media has “been doing that to the Clintons for 25 years,” why run a Clinton?

And, can you not also see how it reeks of legacy and entitlement?

231
Eric The Fruit Bat  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:07:23pm

re: #189 Amory Blaine

There are way too many jobs that require a college degree that could be filled by a minor training period.

And people wonder why we have a student loan debt crises. I’m pretty sure I could put together a 3-4 year vocational education plan to teach mainframe skills for High School-but there’s that damn college degree requirement.

Remember Control Data Institute? Lots of folks in my generation went that route and did quite well.

232
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:07:47pm

re: #223 blueraven

Maybe the thing missing is that the aforementioned were all white males.

Sexism reeked in this election.

As did double standards for qualifications. Trump was viewed as a positive spectacle. Nothing bad but the Grab Them By The Pussy was covered at all. Hillary’s emails? Hourly. Literally.

Then there was Comey’s October Suprise.

WTF doesn’t begin to cover the cult of personality. Sorry, I expect qualification not someone I want to get drunk with.

233
goddamnedfrank  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:08:19pm

re: #158 S’latch

I saw it. Others saw it too. The fact that you didn’t see it, or refused to acknowledge it, is a problem.

Yet she won the popular vote by millions of votes and more than two whole percentage points. The disconnect between that fact and the nominal winner of the election is a perfect metaphor for structural inequality.

234
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:08:29pm

Look, I understand why people are angry at some of the things S’latch is saying, but I think it’s a mistake to dismiss them out of hand. In fact, it’s quite similar to material I’ve posted here before, like this article:

Clinton came within striking distance of winning this thing; that much is clear….The margins were close enough that a competently run campaign could and should have put Clinton over the top.

What we saw instead was gross political malpractice on the part of Democratic Party elites generally and Team Clinton specifically. Yes, factors outside of the campaign’s control, ranging from the Comey letter to racism, sexism, and more, surely contributed to her defeat. But it’s also become clear that a series of fatal miscalculations and spectacular strategic blunders by the party and the Clinton campaign is what ultimately sealed their candidate’s fate.

Read the whole thing. For what it’s worth, the author is female…and so is Krystal Ball, who penned something similar right after the election:

The Democratic Party Deserved To Die

They said they were facing an economic apocalypse, we offered “retraining” and complained about their white privilege. Is it any wonder we lost? One after another, the dispatches came back from the provinces. The coal mines are gone, the steel mills are closed, the drugs are rampant, the towns are decimated and everywhere you look depression, despair, fear. In the face of Trump’s willingness to boldly proclaim without facts or evidence that he would bring the good times back, we offered a tepid gallows logic. Well, those jobs are actually gone for good, we knowingly told them. And we offered a fantastical non-solution. We will retrain you for good jobs! Never mind that these “good jobs” didn’t exist in East Kentucky or Cleveland. And as a final insult, we lectured a struggling people watching their kids die of drug overdoses about their white privilege. Can you blame them for calling bullshit? All Trump could offer was white nationalism as protection against competing with black and brown people. It wasn’t a very compelling case, but it was vastly superior to a candidate who enthusiastically backed NAFTA, seems most at ease in a room of Goldman Sachs bankers and was almost certain to do nothing for these towns other than maybe setting up a local chapter of Rednecks Who Code. We bet that Trump’s manifest awfulness would be enough to let us eke out a win. We were dead wrong. Here’s my version of the Democratic Party autopsy because, make no mistake, the old ways of the Democratic party must die.

235
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:09:12pm

re: #92 S’latch

I did not say that Bernie would have won.

What a dodge. Truth be told you really don’t know what you are saying.

If not Bernie, who?

Since you are going on and on…and on…about a populist candidate and now you say you don’t think Bernie wouldn’t have won, then you probably have some ready names of who you think could win. Name them.

There is an old concept…if you see a problem and you address it, then you should have a fix.

(Sorry I’m behind and answering this stuff…but damn, it is so frustrating watching someone tell everyone they were wrong after the game is over.)

236
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:09:49pm

THIS EVIL FUCKER

The father of five offered a personal example of how this shift might play out. He says his youngest son fell and injured his arm. Not sure if it was sprained or broken, he and his wife decided to wait until the next morning to take the 10-year-old to the doctor’s office, instead of going to the emergency room that night. The arm was broken.

THIS IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU PUNISH PEOPLE FOR BROKEN BONES WHILE NOT HAVING INSURANCE:

In 2004 I fell while running and broke my ankle. I was far from my house, I did not have a cell phone, so I dragged myself home on the broken ankle, I thought it was just sprained, I put a cold pack and Ace bandage on it.

I did not visit the ER because I was unemployed at the time and had no insurance.

2 years later I did get a job & insurance and finally visited an orthopedist but it never healed correctly. I have arthritis in both feet now but it’s much worse in the ankle that was broken.

My running (and walking) days are over.

But YAYY I get to park in the blue space!

237
retired cynic  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:09:56pm

re: #188 lawhawk

You’re going to hang your hat on the polls? …
She went up against a candidate who made promises to people who were willing to buy his BS and defend his BS, even as he flip flopped. These are people who want to break government. They want to sabotage it, so facts and logic don’t even enter into any of the discussion. …

I just had my neighboring farmer here, and he is plenty smart, big landowner, builds machinery when he needs something, and he was telling me how DT was going to do all these things. I pointed out that there were 538 legislators that would have something to say about it, but considering a lot of them are not as smart as my neighbor, I don’t know that that is a great statement. He thinks DT will eliminate the death tax within the first year, and maybe he will. I don’t know. He is very deeply religious, and yet he just has thrown in with the most untruthful, immoral, opaque, crooked jerk on the planet. GAH!

238
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:10:05pm

re: #228 S’latch

That kind of argument is so dishonest. Why do that?

You’re kidding, right? You have to be. That was dishonest in absolutely no way.

239
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:11:15pm

re: #88 S’latch

Turn out was not low.

240
gocart mozart  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:12:52pm

re: #196 Tyrion

I remember in 08 when Obama was going against Hillary, all the Hillbots that were online and constantly fighting for her. This year didn’t seem like she had the same people supporting her online. Obviously, anecdotal, but I always wondered why these people(PUMA’s) didn’t seem to be as prominent this election cycle.

I always thought the PUMA’s were just Republican trolls against Obama. This year I think they posed as Bernie Bros against Hillary. Just a theory which which is mine and belongs to me and which I am sticking with.

241
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:13:32pm

re: #229 wrenchwench

Perhaps flippant, but ‘dishonest’ is a poor characterization.

It was flippant. And unfortunately true. Cult of personality won out.

No ideas. No plans. No concept. Just Trust Me, Believe Me, etc. (with a nice side of Its THEIR fault, hate them) which might as well translate to let’s grab a beer because I like you.

242
baileylamb  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:13:41pm

re: #49 Rocky-in-Connecticut

“Russians are white and nationalistic and so are we. That means we can be on the same page and work together.”

….or so goes the thought process of the typical right wing (usually racist) neo—Libertarian these days. This love affair has been building up for awhile, cultivated by years of propaganda by Russian Intelligence and trolls since at least the early 2000’s. The term “being played like a fiddle” doesn’t even come close to the amount of naïveté at work.

Why are we assuming this is 4th dimensional chess. It’s not uncommon for spies to pick up the mantel of those they are spying on. Why do we assume Putin isn’t a neo Nazi. I think it’s in the realm of possibility. One can be an oligarch or an industrialit and be a white supremacist.

243
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:13:50pm

Have any Democratic leaders mentioned to the media that Trump’s choice for budget director is an extremist, not at all in line with the moderate economic image Trump created for himself during the campaign and that the White Working Class would get shafted six ways from Sunday should this guy get any of his agenda passed?

244
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:13:51pm

re: #230 S’latch

If the media has “been doing that to the Clintons for 25 years,” why run a Clinton?

And, can you not also see how it reeks of legacy and entitlement?

I repeat:

The wild difference between the way we talk about Clinton when she campaigns and the way we talk about her when she’s in office can’t be explained as ordinary political mud-slinging. Rather, the predictable swings of public opinion reveal Americans’ continued prejudice against women caught in the act of asking for power. We beg Clinton to run, and then accuse her of feeling “entitled” to win.

qz.com

245
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:13:56pm

re: #97 lawhawk

And with all that against her, she gets almost three million more votes.
Weak candidate my ass!

246
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:14:11pm

re: #237 retired cynic

He thinks DT will eliminate the death tax within the first year, and maybe he will.

DT will eliminate inheritance tax of >$10 million and make people on Obamacare pay for it like he will make Mexico pay for the wall he won’t build!

247
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:14:24pm

re: #225 S’latch

I am not making the argument that Sanders would have won. I am stating that Hillary Clinton was not as great a candidate as everyone here seems to believe and that she is not blameless for her defeat.

Nobody is perfect. Hillary has flaws. However she is most qualified and competent of all the candidates. Bernie hurt her. He went off the rails declaring her disqualified! Using Trump language.

Even as contentious as Obama, Clinton primary was in ‘08, she admitted Obama was qualified.

I know he tried in the General, but he couldn’t put humpty dumpty back together again.
Many of his supporters voted 3rd party, stayed home, or voted Trump.

This, the third parties in general, Russia/wikileaks, Comey…all together enough to account for the loss.

248
GlutenFreeJesus  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:14:32pm

re: #225 S’latch

I am not making the argument that Sanders would have won. I am stating that Hillary Clinton was not as great a candidate as everyone here seems to believe and that she is not blameless for her defeat.

She was such a poor candidate that she got more votes than any white man that ran for president in this nation’s history.

249
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:14:48pm

Now on sale at half price. Get yours today.

250
gocart mozart  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:15:44pm
251
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:16:05pm

re: #235 ObserverArt

I was here at the beginning to the game too. I was saying the same thing about her back then, and getting the same response.

I don’t have an answer to who should have run in her stead. In retrospect, Joe Biden should have. But, I also think Hillary cleared the field when she declared, so she was going to be the candidate.

252
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:16:28pm

re: #104 S’latch

Silverwang both say that absent “What’s a Hatch Act?” Comey, HRC wins.
Comey’s illegal ratfucking is in no way HRC’s fault.

253
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:17:22pm

re: #234 Interesting Times

Look, I understand why people are angry at some of the things S’latch is saying, but I think it’s a mistake to dismiss them out of hand. In fact, it’s quite similar to material I’ve posted here before, like this article:

Read the whole thing. For what it’s worth, the author is female…and so is Krystal Ball, who penned something similar right after the election:

The Democratic Party Deserved To Die

Back in the 70s we called that publication ‘Behind These Times’. I’m still not impressed.

254
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:18:34pm

He’s great for business!

(His own.)

255
KGxvi  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:18:43pm

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: Hillary Clinton was a bad candidate.

This should not have come as a surprise to anyone this year. We learned this eight years ago when she lost to a black guy who had been in national politics for four years and had a funny sounding (to some) name. She should have waltzed to the nomination in 2008 but lost. I’m fairly certain that had Biden run this year, she’d have lost again. I’m also fairly certain that there were more than a few Democrats out there that could have beat her in the primary. She has been in the public eye for a quarter of a century (just at the national level), people’s opinions of her were baked in from the beginning and anything that happened just served to confirm those opinions (either she’s the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy or she’s corrupt to the bone).

As far as the media goes, Chuck Todd did a cross-pod with Keepin It 1600 and his MTP pod. In it, he admitted that the media basically covered Clinton as a potential/presumptive (I forget which word, he used) president and treated Trump like a celebrity who accidentally ran (or something similar). That’s probably a fair assessment of the coverage. And probably explains why the voters who had a negative view of both nominees broke overwhelmingly for Trump at the end.

256
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:20:30pm

re: #247 blueraven

I actually don’t disagree with most of that. But the “most qualified candidate” argument is not the way people vote for president. I doubt it ever has been.

257
Joe Bacon  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:20:59pm

re: #226 Jebediah, RBG

The media has been doing it to the Clintons for 25 years. They didn’t start it in anticipation that trump would run - but his “victory” is a lovely, unanticipated result.

The leaders of the Clinton Haters were the front page liars at the New York Times. There was no lie about the Clintons they wouldn’t publish. Add in the snarky “I Hate Hillary” columns Maureen Dowd repeatedly regurgitated and other Op ed liars like Douthat, Brooks and Friedman’s endless jerking off to war columns and the rest of the media gladly followed these pied pipers as they led America to destruction.

258
retired cynic  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:23:16pm

You know, my last nerve has been stomped, and I see no reason to sit here and read people’s comments telling me my candidate was “bad” when she won more votes than any white male ever (including DT), and that I am somehow to blame for being gullible, or a female, or something. I’m checking out for a while. Sheesh.

259
MsJ  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:24:14pm

re: #258 retired cynic

You know, my last nerve has been stomped, and I see no reason to sit here and read people’s comments telling me my candidate was “bad” when she won more votes than any white male ever (including DT), and that I am somehow to blame for being gullible, or a female, or something. I’m checking out for a while. Sheesh.

Amen.

260
Joe Bacon  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:25:22pm

Well, it looks like the person losing electoral votes is…Hillary…

huffingtonpost.com

261
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:25:26pm

re: #257 Joe Bacon

You forgot perpetual Clinton Hater, Maureen Dowd.

262
Decatur Deb  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:25:30pm

It helps to separate HRC the Candidate from HRC the Campaigner. She was the best candidate, though showing a few flaws and the scars of 25 years of BS attacks.

BUT

If you win 2.5 million surplus votes, and don’t get them in the right states, your team has fucked up. The small slice of the HRC campaign I saw was, charitably, unimpressive. Others’ mileages may vary.

263
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:26:26pm

re: #255 KGxvi

I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again: Hillary Clinton was a bad candidate.

This should not have come as a surprise to anyone this year. We learned this eight years ago when she lost to a black guy who had been in national politics for four years and had a funny sounding (to some) name. She should have waltzed to the nomination in 2008 but lost. I’m fairly certain that had Biden run this year, she’d have lost again. I’m also fairly certain that there were more than a few Democrats out there that could have beat her in the primary. She has been in the public eye for a quarter of a century (just at the national level), people’s opinions of her were baked in from the beginning and anything that happened just served to confirm those opinions (either she’s the victim of a vast right wing conspiracy or she’s corrupt to the bone).

As far as the media goes, Chuck Todd did a cross-pod with Keepin It 1600 and his MTP pod. In it, he admitted that the media basically covered Clinton as a potential/presumptive (I forget which word, he used) president and treated Trump like a celebrity who accidentally ran (or something similar). That’s probably a fair assessment of the coverage. And probably explains why the voters who had a negative view of both nominees broke overwhelmingly for Trump at the end.

wow…some people don’t like candidate. She was a BAD candidate.
Millions more absolutely detest Trump but he won…I guess that makes him GOOD.

264
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:26:26pm

NOR talking about Republicans hypocrisy regarding GOP state legislators regarding city and local ordinances.

265
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:28:44pm

re: #234 Interesting Times

Eight years ago, on a promise of sweeping change and optimism, we elected Barack Obama, took back the House, gained a supermajority in the Senate. We have been riding the high of this wave ever since as Republicans took back the House (2010), took back the Senate (2014) and absolutely decimated Democrats in governor’s mansions and state legislatures across the country. 24 states are fully controlled by Republicans at the House, Senate and gubernatorial levels. Amid the carnage last night, Kentucky’s state house, which was the last legislative body in a state won by Romney still holding for the Dems, was unceremoniously handed over to Republicans in a rout. But we didn’t seem to care much about these losses in the vast middle and South and Midwest of the country, so long as we kept our lock on the presidency. The arrogance of thinking that somehow we could ignore most of the country and still hold a claim on the nation’s highest office is breathtaking. Demographics are not destiny.

All true, Dems need to win again at the state and local level, especially in places like WI, MI and OH. Dems did win the PA governorship back. But the state house losses across the country have been heartbreaking—including in my own super liberal blue state of Maryland.

266
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:28:54pm
267
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:29:21pm

re: #237 retired cynic

I just had my neighboring farmer here, and he is plenty smart, big landowner, builds machinery when he needs something, and he was telling me how DT was going to do all these things. I pointed out that there were 538 legislators that would have something to say about it, but considering a lot of them are not as smart as my neighbor, I don’t know that that is a great statement. He thinks DT will eliminate the death tax within the first year, and maybe he will. I don’t know. He is very deeply religious, and yet he just has thrown in with the most untruthful, immoral, opaque, crooked jerk on the planet. GAH!

I’m a farmer and I am probably one of the wealthiest people in my county, at least when it comes to farmers, aka “land rich”.
When I die, my estate will still be well under the current threshold for the so-called “death tax”.
And even if it was not, I understand and have implemented the basic concepts of estate planning, so “death taxes” would never apply anyway.

Of course, I’ll be dead by then, so what do I care? It’ll be somebody else’s problem…

268
KGxvi  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:29:53pm

re: #258 retired cynic

You know, my last nerve has been stomped, and I see no reason to sit here and read people’s comments telling me my candidate was “bad” when she won more votes than any white male ever (including DT), and that I am somehow to blame for being gullible, or a female, or something. I’m checking out for a while. Sheesh.

For the record, I’m not saying that you or Democratic voters are to blame. Nor am I saying that Clinton would have been a bad president - she was and is, pretty much a standard issue Democrat and given her experience and knowledge would have been capable. All I am suggesting is that she (and the advisers she has relied on in national campaigns) is not particularly good at running national campaigns. And to be fair, campaigning and governing require skill sets that only have a little bit of overlap.

269
Joe Bacon  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:30:23pm

re: #261 Patricia Kayden

You forgot perpetual Clinton Hater, Maureen Dowd.

Patricia, Little Miss Snarkette Herself, Maureen Dowd is included in my post. Damn, I just wish I could be paid $250,000 a year to endlessly recycle “I Hate Hillary” columns again and again!

270
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:30:28pm

re: #176 Myron Falwell (no relation)

Not sure if I agree with you. Tea Baggers had a coordinated strategy to force their party to the Right so that their pet issues (anti-reproductive rights, anti-gay rights, anti-immigration, anti-Civil Rights, anti-climate change, etc) could be normalized and legislated. That’s pretty much what Tea Baggers have gotten now that Republicans have full control of Washington, D.C. I’m sure they would argue that they aren’t trying to destroy anything but instead working to preserve their cherished (White) Christian heritage. Not sure how they are nihilists.

271
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:30:35pm

re: #266 JasonA

[Embedded content]

Still a paranoid fuckstickle even with his man in the WH.

272
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:31:40pm

re: #269 Joe Bacon

I see that now. Sorry. She’s the worst!

273
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:31:43pm

re: #146 S’latch

Do you acknowledge that people have gut instincts that they follow?

Gut instincts don’t exist in a vacuum. Absent 25 years of fuckery, in part thanks to Head Smearleader Maureen Fucking Dowd, most people’s guts would have been just fine with HRC.

274
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:31:51pm

re: #271 HappyWarrior

Still a paranoid fuckstickle even with his man in the WH.

And maybe even more dangerous seeing how PEOTUS actually pays some attention to him.

275
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:32:37pm

re: #274 JasonA

And maybe even more dangerous seeing how PEOTUS actually pays some attention to him.

Yep scary isn’t it?

276
Joe Bacon  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:32:37pm

re: #266 JasonA

[Embedded content]

Sure is amazing to see Alex Jones debunk a “conspiracy” that he doesn’t idologically agree with!

277
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:32:40pm

Sorry, but fuck you all who say Hillary was a bad candidate. How does a bad candidate receive 66 million votes?

Fuck this thread with a big rubber dick.

278
Sir John Barron  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:33:04pm

re: #269 Joe Bacon

Patricia, Little Miss Snarkette Herself, Maureen Dowd is included in my post. Damn, I just wish I could be paid $250,000 a year to endlessly recycle “I Hate Hillary” columns again and again!

And now what will Maureen do? Have you ever thought about that? //

I imagine she’ll still write anti-HRC columns, there’s still the Clinton Foundation, after all, which is obviously up to no good.

/

279
freetoken  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:33:06pm

re: #262 Decatur Deb

The reason it is believed, widely, that making a first impression is vitally important, is because once people form a reaction to you it becomes very hard to change that totally. (Time can of course moderate anything, but flipping opinions is in a short period is hard.)

I believed well before the election, going back to 2008, that Hillary had too much baggage. That doesn’t mean she was “bad”, just that too many people already had a negative image of her, as I called it, “baked in”.

This is the hard part of being part of a group: other people’s’ opinions, even if falsely concluded, still will affect the group’s decisions no matter what one does.

In great part I blame the machinery of the DNC for not being able to own up to this reality back in 2006 when candidates were being floated. For all the bernie-bros faults, and they are many, I agree with them that the DNC was too much in bed with the Clinton machine. This made them blind to how hated Hillary was/is in America.

And yes, I know Hillary set a record popular vote count. But Trump’s odor cuts both ways - in that Hillary may have gotten, and here in California definitely got, a boost from how repugnant Trump is to many people.

I don’t blame Hillary. In some ways I think she punched above her weight. But she just couldn’t overcome 30 years of negative typing.

280
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:33:30pm

In case anyone is still unsure of what “deplorable” means:

“Do the dishes, or else.”

281
KGxvi  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:33:58pm

re: #263 blueraven

wow…some people don’t like candidate. She was a BAD candidate.
Millions more absolutely detest Trump but he won…I guess that makes him GOOD.

I didn’t say that Trump was a good candidate. I’ve been pretty solidly on the record here that he’s terrible. I’m offering my thoughts on why she lost - and there will likely be a few million more between now and whenever the first Democrat announces for 2020. At the end of the day, she couldn’t carry states that Obama did, so she lost. The question now becomes: is this an anomaly based on a bad candidate or is this structural? I tend to think it’s the former rather than the latter.

282
Single-handed sailor  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:35:28pm

re: #231 Eric The Fruit Bat

And people wonder why we have a student loan debt crises. I’m pretty sure I could put together a 3-4 year vocational education plan to teach mainframe skills for High School-but there’s that damn college degree requirement.

Remember Control Data Institute? Lots of folks in my generation went that route and did quite well.

I went that route. It worked for me.

283
freetoken  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:36:19pm

re: #280 JasonA

And that brings me to why I’ve been mulling about since the election - in some ways I don’t want to come to accept that such a large fraction of my fellow Americans really are as stupid as they appear.

Or as bigoted.

284
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:36:27pm

re: #173 makeitstop

She won the pop vote by nearly 3 million votes, dude.

People did flock to the polls to vote for her, no matter how flawed you think she is.

This is a fact.

Facts. S’latch doesn’t need facts. Hasn’t had one original one yet. Not even a wining candidate, but damn that Hillary was a sure loser.

285
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:36:31pm

re: #280 JasonA

In case anyone is still unsure of what “deplorable” means:

[Embedded content]

“Do the dishes, or else.”

Must really love his wife.//

286
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:36:33pm

Another thing going on that I truly don’t get is this binary, either/or, “no, you can’t talk populism that appeals to WWC voters because it automatically means dismissing the concerns of women/LGBT/minorities”

I’m sorry, but what the actual frack? Populism doesn’t have to equal “durr hurr, messicans are talking ur jobs!” Yes, there are “irredeemable” racists among the WWC, but if racism is all there is to it, how do you explain the WWC/rust-belt voters who went for Obama in 2008 and 2012, but switched to Trump this time around? Hell, even people with racist tendencies can set them aside for a strong-enough populist appeal from a non-white candidate. Case in point?

Sean Quinn, of the polling site FiveThirtyEight, respected for its obsessiveness and eerie prescience, recently posted a hair-raising story about a pair of Barack Obama supporters. Quinn seems ready to verify its source, but only after the election. At any rate, it goes like this: A man canvassing for Obama in western Pennsylvania asks a housewife which candidate she intends to vote for. She yells to her husband to find out. From the interior of the house, he calls back, “We’re voting for the n*****!” At which point the housewife turns to the canvasser and calmly repeats her husband’s declaration.

So, um…yeah. People are complex, crazy, irrational beings who defy all logical explanation sometimes. And I’ll repeat some tweets originally posted by Ziggy Tardis:

Again, the moral of the story is NOT “throw women/minorities/LGBT under the bus.” It’s, “come up with a populist message for everyone, and link it to other issues normally associated with so-called identity politics.”

287
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:36:45pm

re: #281 KGxvi

I didn’t say that Trump was a good candidate. I’ve been pretty solidly on the record here that he’s terrible. I’m offering my thoughts on why she lost - and there will likely be a few million more between now and whenever the first Democrat announces for 2020. At the end of the day, she couldn’t carry states that Obama did, so she lost. The question now becomes: is this an anomaly based on a bad candidate or is this structural? I tend to think it’s the former rather than the latter.

To repeat: She lost because of extreme voter suppression by the GOP in certain key states.
Anyone paying attention could see that happening WHEN IT WAS HAPPENING early on.

288
jhncsy  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:38:00pm

So… should we just cash in our treasury bonds, then?

289
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:38:50pm

and the grift goes on…

290
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:40:34pm

re: #269 Joe Bacon

Patricia, Little Miss Snarkette Herself, Maureen Dowd is included in my post. Damn, I just wish I could be paid $250,000 a year to endlessly recycle “I Hate Hillary” columns again and again!

Because this thread needs a little levity, and because I think it is the funniest column ever written about Maureen Dowd, I will share again Charles P. Pierce’s “Have the kittens stopped screaming, Maureen?” piece of brilliance.

esquire.com

291
Joe Bacon  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:40:57pm

re: #282 Single-handed sailor

I went that route. It worked for me.

I also went to Control Data Institute in 1973, but I got nowhere with any employment offers. So I wound up going to Pitt and it took a while for me to get a full time job with Social Security.

292
electrotek  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:41:09pm

I just got back from Houston after enjoying the Day For Night music festival with Aphex Twin and already I hear that the Russian ambassador to Turkey was shot dead live, a shooting at an Islamic center in Zurich, and now a possible terror attack in Berlin has occurred?

Goddammit.

293
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:41:41pm

re: #182 blueraven

Not to say Hillary and her campaign (and Bill) didn’t make mistakes. They did.

I think some of the more critical ones were:

Basket of Deplorables (never insult the voters: politics 101)
Bill’s tarmac meeting with L. Lynch. (this set up the entire Comey spectacle)
Hillary’s language about Coal country. (mostly just inartful, but sounded really bad)

These things pale in comparison to what Trump did and said. But in the end the emails were covered more harshly than anything.

Good comment. Reasonable.

I think that all adds up to her thinking everyone in America would see Trump as an unlikeable clown and she could tea off on him at will. She gave too much weight on people being reasonable and normal as in ethics, morals and just plain old doing the right thing.

294
Charles Johnson  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:44:40pm

The nightmare comes true.

295
Timothy Watson  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:45:13pm

re: #262 Decatur Deb

It helps to separate HRC the Candidate from HRC the Campaigner. She was the best candidate, though showing a few flaws and the scars of 25 years of BS attacks.

BUT

If you win 2.5 million surplus votes, and don’t get them in the right states, your team has fucked up. The small slice of the HRC campaign I saw was, charitably, unimpressive. Others’ mileages may vary.

Deb, had you seen this article? Might leave you with an awful headache

296
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:45:37pm

re: #294 Charles Johnson

There’s still time*!

*for that meteor…

297
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:46:34pm

re: #292 electrotek

I just got back from Houston after enjoying the Day For Night music festival with Aphex Twin and already I hear that the Russian ambassador to Turkey was shot dead live, a shooting at an Islamic center in Zurich, and now a possible terror attack in Berlin has occurred?

Goddammit.

Regrettably, it’s the new normal.

298
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:46:51pm

re: #294 Charles Johnson

The nightmare comes true.

[Embedded content]

Well here we go sigh.

299
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:47:13pm

re: #287 Backwoods_Sleuth

To repeat: She lost because of extreme voter suppression by the GOP in certain key states.
Anyone paying attention could see that happening WHEN IT WAS HAPPENING early on.

Quoting because it bears repeating.
Just to amplify—look at what the fucksticks in just NC and OH did to keep “those people” from voting.

300
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:47:18pm
301
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:48:31pm

re: #300 JasonA

[Embedded content]

That would involve admitting guilt, not i Trump family DNA to do that.

302
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:48:33pm

re: #277 teleskiguy

Sorry, but fuck you all who say Hillary was a bad candidate. How does a bad candidate receive 66 million votes?

Fuck this thread with a big rubber dick.

Bottom line is that she would have made a great President and would have shored up President Obama’s legacy and kept things moving in the right direction. More importantly, our side could have influenced her and forced her to the left. Now, we have a President in office, over whom we have no influence — in fact, quite the opposite. He and his ilk actively hate anyone on our side and will do petty things to get at us (up to and including physically assaulting minorities).

303
freetoken  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:48:49pm

Unlike some, I do wonder if Trump carrying MI and PA does indicate a systemic shift in that region of the loss of influence of the Democratic party.

The basis of Democratic strength in the old industrial areas goes back to FDR and the labor movement.

We’re now past those days, and I suspect the DNC has to come to terms that the MI and PA electoral votes can no longer be looked at as likely Democratic.

Even worse, when I look at the midterm elections, there is no reason for me to believe there will be much joy for the Democrats. The Senate is very lopsided in the next election, as far as incumbent Democrats.

One reason I’ve been down after the election is that I now believe my retirement is at risk. It’s not just that Trump’s narcissism will cause problems for governance. But even more so it seems to me that the electorate is not as connected to reality as my parent’s generation, who lived through the great depression and really appreciated the dribble of socialism that FDR was able to put into place to stabilize our economy.

Coupled with the military fetish which Trump will no doubt continue to feed, and I find there are good reasons to think our society will cause itself (and others) great harm.

304
Stanley Sea  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:48:56pm

re: #289 Backwoods_Sleuth

and the grift goes on…

[Embedded content]

The Four Seasons needs to raise holy hell.

305
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:49:02pm

re: #300 JasonA

Newt ought to request a pardon on himself for being an irredeemable shitstain.

306
HappyWarrior  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:49:24pm

re: #299 BeachDem

Quoting because it bears repeating.
Just to amplify—look at what the fucksticks in just NC and OH did to keep “those people” from voting.

We really need to get back the governors mansions & state legislatures.

307
Patricia Kayden  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:49:49pm

re: #300 JasonA

Sure. Why the hell not?

308
Jack Burton  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:51:33pm

For the record. I am now officially on the “Do away with the electoral college” bandwagon. They had their chance to justify their existence in the 21st century and failed, miserably. The arguments presented in the Federalist 68 are apparently moot now since Trump can put a check in just about every box that Alexander Hamilton lists as unfit for office.

309
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:54:01pm

re: #219 Jebediah, RBG

Bullshit. Eliminate a few states’ voter suppression efforts and we have President HRC.

I still think the negativity that Hillary had in the Democratic ranks helped cement the very thing they complain about. In other words, they did not help this at all. They helped with the flawed candidate because they were always mentioning it.

As mentioned, 100,000 votes in three states did her in. How much of that was from lose lip Demcrats complaining about Hillary helped at least that many decide they would gamble on Trump. After all, even her own party questioned her flaws and helped pack those bags.

Hell…prove it wrong. It is after-the-fact as anyone else’s BS so I can be right too!

310
Decatur Deb  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:55:22pm

re: #295 Timothy Watson

Deb, had you seen this article? Might leave you with an awful headache

[Embedded content]

It tracks.

311
BeachDem  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:55:33pm

re: #306 HappyWarrior

We really need to get back the governors mansions & state legislatures.

Yep—and Secretaries of State are CRUCIAL for voting rights.

312
blueraven  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:55:44pm

re: #286 Interesting Times

Another thing going on that I truly don’t get is this binary, either/or, “no, you can’t talk populism that appeals to WWC voters because it automatically means dismissing the concerns of women/LGBT/minorities”

I’m sorry, but what the actual frack? Populism doesn’t have to equal “durr hurr, messicans are talking ur jobs!” Yes, there are “irredeemable” racists among the WWC, but if racism is all there is to it, how do you explain the WWC/rust-belt voters who went for Obama in 2008 and 2012, but switched to Trump this time around? Hell, even people with racist tendencies can set them aside for a strong-enough populist appeal from a non-white candidate. Case in point?

So, um…yeah. People are complex, crazy, irrational beings who defy all logical explanation sometimes. And I’ll repeat some tweets originally posted by Ziggy Tardis:

[Sean Quinn, of the polling site FiveThirtyEight, respected for its obsessiveness and eerie prescience, recently posted a hair-raising story about a pair of Barack Obama supporters. Quinn seems ready to verify its source, but only after the election. At any rate, it goes like this: A man canvassing for Obama in western Pennsylvania asks a housewife which candidate she intends to vote for. She yells to her husband to find out. From the interior of the house, he calls back, “We’re voting for the n*****!” ]

Again, the moral of the story is NOT “throw women/minorities/LGBT under the bus.” It’s, “come up with a populist message for everyone, and link it to other issues normally associated with so-called identity politics.”

I remember that anecdote from ‘08 and if I am not mistaken that voter was a union member. Yes, even racists would “vote for the n*****” if they were a Democratic candidate who supported unions.

Problem is, unions are so weak now and the membership so low…that boat has sailed. Trump, with his lies about bringing back manufacturing, mining jobs was able to win them over.

313
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:55:47pm

re: #306 HappyWarrior

We really need to get back the governors mansions & state legislatures.

First of all, the Ohio Democrat Party needs to nominate a competent candidate for governor. Not someone like Ed Fitzgerald, who was so bad that he turned a horribly flawed Kasich into a fucking political dynamo.

Sen. Sherrod Brown is running for reelection against Josh Mandel… the same Mandel who got deservedly trounced in 2012 by Brown (getting reelected as Ohio treasurer in 2014 in part because of the Fitzgerald implosion). Sen. Brown will not take this campaign lying down or assuming victory, though.

314
Timothy Watson  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:56:34pm

re: #309 ObserverArt

I still think the negativity that Hillary had in the Democratic ranks helped cement the very thing they complain about. In other words, they did not help this at all. They helped with the flawed candidate because they were always mentioning it.

As mentioned, 100,000 votes in three states did her in. How much of that was from lose lip Demcrats complaining about Hillary helped at least that many decide they would gamble on Trump. After all, even her own party questioned her flaws and helped pack those bags.

Hell…prove it wrong. It is after-the-fact as anyone else’s BS so I can be right too!

Given how difficult it was to get volunteers here in Virginia, I think apathetic/overconfident Democrats had a lot to do with Clinton losing.

315
TedStriker  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:56:35pm

re: #212 Decatur Deb

We lost because we underestimated the power of hate and fear. Love and hope apparently require a stronger campaign effort.

Hate and fear are easy…love, hope, and compassion take actual work.

All and all, people are lazy.

316
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:56:54pm

re: #308 Jack Burton

For the record. I am now officially on the “Do away with the electoral college” bandwagon. They had their chance to justify their existence in the 21st century and failed, miserably. The arguments presented in the Federalist 68 are apparently moot now since Trump can put a check in just about every box that Alexander Hamilton lists as unfit for office.

Every modern-day democracy directly elects their executive. The electoral college is from a bygone era, an era when the EC favored slave-holding states.

317
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:57:32pm

re: #225 S’latch

I am not making the argument that Sanders would have won. I am stating that Hillary Clinton was not as great a candidate as everyone here seems to believe and that she is not blameless for her defeat.

Kindly point out anyone that said she is blameless. Go on. Name the names.

They actually had to say it. You can’t twist any random comment into someone saying she was blameless. You need to make those comments clear.

How long should we wait?

318
Citizen K  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:57:32pm

re: #289 Backwoods_Sleuth

and the grift goes on…

[Embedded content]

re: #300 JasonA

[Embedded content]

Between these two things, I just feel ungodly depressed, simply because I realize that Trump is going to have an absolutely no-consequences free ride. Because of course he will, he’s a fucking Republican. Americans goddamn deify the Republicans whether they admit it or not. They are the only true, blessed Americans in this fucking country and all of us are worthless goddamn diseases and infestations to be stamped out. There’ll never be any hell to pay because the GOP are God’s chosen fucking people.

And this country just plain fucking hates us. Fuck it.

319
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:58:19pm

re: #230 S’latch

Why run a Clinton?
Because she would have been a very good President. And I’m not the only one who thinks so. Almost three million votes more than dump.

320
freetoken  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:59:11pm

re: #295 Timothy Watson

I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with our society when the only way to get a citizen to make a sensible vote is to have them targeted in the hours before the election by a GOTV campaign.

Something is definitely wrong.

321
GlutenFreeJesus  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:59:18pm

Germany. It appears the passenger (original driver of truck) is dead. And a Polish national. They aren’t giving details about the driver, unless I missed something.

Of course, Merkel is already being blamed for her immigrant/refugee policy.

322
Jebediah, RBG  Dec 19, 2016 • 2:59:25pm

re: #230 S’latch

And, can you not also see how it reeks of legacy and entitlement?

Well, you have a point there - that reek is clearly what cost George W. Bush the Presidency.

323
freetoken  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:00:23pm

re: #322 Jebediah, RBG

Well, you have a point there - that reek is clearly what cost George W. Bush the Presidency.

Note that GWB lost the popular vote and like Trump relied on the electoral college.

Then, it took war fever to ensure he’d get re-elected.

324
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:04:00pm

re: #314 Timothy Watson

Given how difficult it was to get volunteers here in Virginia, I think apathetic/overconfident Democrats had a lot to do with Clinton losing.

I think this is huge. Trump, the inexperienced, blustering, reality star boob couldn’t possibly win the highest office in the land. Who would vote for the hateful groping fool? Hillary has this in the bag - an attitude that was reinforced every day by pollsters. Standing in line for hours to vote is a PITA and we know that Democrat/minority voters have been targeted in those states Hillary lost to ensure that it was as hard as possible to vote. Combine those factors and the 100,000 vote difference can be accounted for right there.

325
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:09:14pm

re: #321 GlutenFreeJesus

326
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:11:03pm
327
Jenner7  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:11:13pm

Bottom line, Hillary had a shit ton against her. Hard to win against all of that. She ran a pretty good campaign for a normal election, but this was not a normal election, by any standard. Trump erased all norms and will infect our political system for decades.

Ugh. It’s only Monday and he’s not even President.

I need a drink. And some fudge.

328
Timothy Watson  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:11:19pm

re: #320 freetoken

I believe there is something fundamentally wrong with our society when the only way to get a citizen to make a sensible vote is to have them targeted in the hours before the election by a GOTV campaign.

Something is definitely wrong.

It apparently works. And you’re not targeting everyone, just people who are likely Democrats and might not show up for every election. You also have to make sure that they have a rid to the polls, go over voter ID information, etc.

329
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:11:37pm
330
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:13:42pm

re: #328 Timothy Watson

I’d like more states to get in on that “vote by mail” action.

331
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:14:17pm

California, on the cutting edge as usual.

332
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:15:18pm
333
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:16:44pm

re: #331 teleskiguy

I’m wondering about the Constitutionality of that, though.

334
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:16:55pm

re: #256 S’latch

I actually don’t disagree with most of that. But the “most qualified candidate” argument is not the way people vote for president. I doubt it ever has been.

And there is the problem. This time more than ever.

You know what you just explained: ignorance. American voters let pure ignorance win out at the worst time with possibly the actual worst candidate in the race ever.

335
Timothy Watson  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:17:49pm

re: #332 JasonA

[Embedded content]

Poor woman is already UpChuck’s ex-girlfriend, how much more is she going to have to go through in life?

336
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:18:39pm

It’s a terrifying thought that Trump can crash the stock market and start WWIII with Twitter.

337
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:19:35pm

re: #260 Joe Bacon

Well, it looks like the person losing electoral votes is…Hillary…

huffingtonpost.com

Democrats in action. Tearing themselves apart. There is a lot of that going on. Here, there and everywhere.

If you are over 55, you have seen this before.

338
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:19:54pm

re: #336 teleskiguy

It’s a terrifying thought that Trump can crash the stock market and start WWIII with Twitter.

good thing somebody took the phone away from him today.

339
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:20:27pm

re: #334 ObserverArt

I saw someone put it this way: feels over reals.

340
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:21:49pm
341
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:21:57pm

re: #262 Decatur Deb

It helps to separate HRC the Candidate from HRC the Campaigner. She was the best candidate, though showing a few flaws and the scars of 25 years of BS attacks.

BUT

If you win 2.5 million surplus votes, and don’t get them in the right states, your team has fucked up. The small slice of the HRC campaign I saw was, charitably, unimpressive. Others’ mileages may vary.

At least you are getting at real problems.

342
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:22:45pm

re: #270 Patricia Kayden

Not sure if I agree with you. Tea Baggers had a coordinated strategy to force their party to the Right so that their pet issues (anti-reproductive rights, anti-gay rights, anti-immigration, anti-Civil Rights, anti-climate change, etc) could be normalized and legislated. That’s pretty much what Tea Baggers have gotten now that Republicans have full control of Washington, D.C. I’m sure they would argue that they aren’t trying to destroy anything but instead working to preserve their cherished (White) Christian heritage. Not sure how they are nihilists.

The majority of the Tea Party is based on simple hatred of the government, especially a government led by someone like President Obama. It really was thinly masked racism and white supremacism, and they offered nothing to the table except a shutdown of the federal government. Because Ted Fucking Cruz needed that as a résumé enhancement.

Trump’s campaign in general, combined with their embrace of every single negative quality possible (“Deplorables,” attacking people that aren’t fellow old, angry male WASPs, and an embrace of Putin and Russia) shows that outside of the pet issues listed above — which are serious fucking horror shows — there is nothing but a rejection of any possible moral bearings and (despite any objections) a desire for actual destruction.

That’s why I view it as nihilism.

343
Jenner7  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:22:46pm
344
JasonA  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:23:21pm

How reassuring.

345
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:27:08pm
346
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:28:15pm

re: #343 Jenner7

re: #344 JasonA

I knew it!
I knew the minute I said they took his phone away, there he’d show his stupid ass…

347
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:29:54pm
348
wrenchwench  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:31:38pm
349
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:32:28pm

re: #344 JasonA

Interesting, considering it is likely one of his supporters did the Switzerland attack.

350
Stanley Sea  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:37:09pm

vanityfair.com

Tina is at it again.

351
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:37:25pm

re: #286 Interesting Times

Another thing going on that I truly don’t get is this binary, either/or, “no, you can’t talk populism that appeals to WWC voters because it automatically means dismissing the concerns of women/LGBT/minorities”

I’m sorry, but what the actual frack? Populism doesn’t have to equal “durr hurr, messicans are talking ur jobs!” Yes, there are “irredeemable” racists among the WWC, but if racism is all there is to it, how do you explain the WWC/rust-belt voters who went for Obama in 2008 and 2012, but switched to Trump this time around? Hell, even people with racist tendencies can set them aside for a strong-enough populist appeal from a non-white candidate. Case in point?

So, um…yeah. People are complex, crazy, irrational beings who defy all logical explanation sometimes. And I’ll repeat some tweets originally posted by Ziggy Tardis:

[Embedded content]

Again, the moral of the story is NOT “throw women/minorities/LGBT under the bus.” It’s, “come up with a populist message for everyone, and link it to other issues normally associated with so-called identity politics.”

Can you tell me exactly where that wasn’t what Hillary was doing?

Or is it the fact that Hillary was unpopular that automatically cancels out that really was her platform?

I have a feeling you cannot say she didn’t do exactly that? Something else was the telling factor. So, it has got to be the ‘baggage” bullshit that only counted against her where the Trump baggage, as smelly it was and yooooger, did not.

And even Debs addition about her not running a crack campaign makes me wonder how the Trump campaign did better? Was it Tweets and free news coverage? How could Hillary have done better against that?

Trump’s campaign really was “An Asshole on Display and This Asshole says He is Going to Make America Great Again.” And he won. Tell me, how does even the Obama campaign beat that?

352
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:40:01pm

re: #287 Backwoods_Sleuth

To repeat: She lost because of extreme voter suppression by the GOP in certain key states.
Anyone paying attention could see that happening WHEN IT WAS HAPPENING early on.

I see no “Hillary was an unpopular candidate” people touching that one, so it doesn’t count.

353
Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:41:08pm

re: #294 Charles Johnson

The nightmare comes true.

[Embedded content]

This isn’t a movie. There are no last minute saves here.

Unfortunately.

354
Charles Johnson  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:43:16pm
355
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:45:37pm

re: #353 Eclectic Cyborg

This isn’t a movie. There are no last minute saves here.

Unfortunately.

If we’re lucky it will end like the apocalypse in the Terminator.

356
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:47:12pm

re: #351 ObserverArt

Can you tell me exactly where that wasn’t what Hillary was doing?

With respect, I’ve answered this question before. Perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read the material in full, so here it is again:

Neoliberalism: the deep story that lies beneath Donald Trump’s triumph

And:

The Clintons’ Dominance of Democratic Politics Is Over—And They Will Not Be Remembered Fondly

A post-election report by the pollster Stanley Greenberg confirms that Clinton’s decision to shun a progressive economic appeal was a fatal error. Greenberg found that “polls showed fairly resilient support with white working class women, until the Clinton campaign stopped talking about economic change.” When the Greenberg team tested a Democratic message attacking Trump for his character vs. a message “demanding big economic changes” and attacking Trump for “supporting for trickle-down and protecting corporate special interests,” they found that the economic message “performed dramatically better,” particularly among key voter groups like millennials, white unmarried women and white working class women.

The full report referenced in the above quote is here.

357
Eclectic Cyborg  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:47:26pm

re: #354 Charles Johnson

The problem is one person, one vote means California gets to decide every election from here to eternity unless there are some major population shifts.

358
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:49:48pm

re: #357 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is one person, one vote means California gets to decide every election from here to eternity unless there are some major population shifts.

It’s all fantasy anyway. It will never happen as long as the GOP controls things, which means it will never happen at all.

359
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:49:53pm

re: #357 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is one person, one vote means California gets to decide every election from here to eternity unless there are some major population shifts.

And that’s a bad thing?

360
Decatur Deb  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:51:48pm

re: #356 Interesting Times

With respect, I’ve answered this question before. Perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read the material in full, so here it is again:

Neoliberalism: the deep story that lies beneath Donald Trump’s triumph

And:

The Clintons’ Dominance of Democratic Politics Is Over—And They Will Not Be Remembered Fondly

The full report referenced in the above quote is here.

The middle half of the XXI Century stands to be a generation of suffering, and it might all be traced to a blow job in the 1980s. How’s that for a Butterfly Effect?

361
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:52:06pm

re: #303 freetoken

Unlike some, I do wonder if Trump carrying MI and PA does indicate a systemic shift in that region of the loss of influence of the Democratic party.

The basis of Democratic strength in the old industrial areas goes back to FDR and the labor movement.

We’re now past those days, and I suspect the DNC has to come to terms that the MI and PA electoral votes can no longer be looked at as likely Democratic.

Even worse, when I look at the midterm elections, there is no reason for me to believe there will be much joy for the Democrats. The Senate is very lopsided in the next election, as far as incumbent Democrats.

One reason I’ve been down after the election is that I now believe my retirement is at risk. It’s not just that Trump’s narcissism will cause problems for governance. But even more so it seems to me that the electorate is not as connected to reality as my parent’s generation, who lived through the great depression and really appreciated the dribble of socialism that FDR was able to put into place to stabilize our economy.

Coupled with the military fetish which Trump will no doubt continue to feed, and I find there are good reasons to think our society will cause itself (and others) great harm.

Ohio is in that boat.

And I know what you are talking about as far as retirement. I’m freaking scared. Actually real-world scared.

And I did all the right things all they way through…right up until I lost my job at 58 and found out the ground I was standing on shifted immediately.

People wonder where depression comes from. I’m discovering it.

And do any of the politicians talk about what we of a certain age were sold. Nope. Not going to touch it.

362
Charles Johnson  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:52:24pm

re: #357 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is one person, one vote means California gets to decide every election from here to eternity unless there are some major population shifts.

Why is that a problem? People don’t lose their autonomy when they live in California. Any person in the state is free to vote for whoever they choose.

363
Interesting Times  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:55:05pm

re: #352 ObserverArt

I see no “Hillary was an unpopular candidate” people touching that one, so it doesn’t count.

Oh hey, I’ve addressed this before as well (albeit indirectly, when I posted this):

Many in Milwaukee Neighborhood Didn’t Vote — and Don’t Regret It

I don’t want to get CL’d in case this thread goes dead, so no time to pick and choose quotes, but the above explains why black turnout was low in the crucial state of Wisconsin - and no, it wasn’t only due to voter suppression.

364
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:56:00pm

re: #313 Myron Falwell (no relation)

First of all, the Ohio Democrat Party needs to nominate a competent candidate for governor. Not someone like Ed Fitzgerald, who was so bad that he turned a horribly flawed Kasich into a fucking political dynamo.

Sen. Sherrod Brown is running for reelection against Josh Mandel… the same Mandel who got deservedly trounced in 2012 by Brown (getting reelected as Ohio treasurer in 2014 in part because of the Fitzgerald implosion). Sen. Brown will not take this campaign lying down or assuming victory, though.

Mandel was on NBC4 TV’s The Spectrum yesterday and was just awful. All he did was use talking points and even answered the host (Colleen Marshall - most likely a mild Republican) hint that he was just giving talking points with other talking points. That idiot has got nothing. But that is dangerous in today’s politics as we have learned.

365
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:56:23pm

Why is a vote in Casper, WY weighted more than a vote in Los Angeles? That’s what the EC does. It’s bullshit.

366
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 3:57:11pm

re: #314 Timothy Watson

Given how difficult it was to get volunteers here in Virginia, I think apathetic/overconfident Democrats had a lot to do with Clinton losing.

No doubt. The other side of the coin. I suspect her own campaign suffered that especially early on.

368
Ziggy_TARDIS  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:00:49pm

re: #357 Eclectic Cyborg

I would not have a problem with that. At all.

369
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:01:24pm

re: #331 teleskiguy

California, on the cutting edge as usual.

[Embedded content]

Damn good idea. I hope some of the other big blue states do the same. Maybe if there is enough of that going on it might be able to be sold to conservatives as a good thing, and they force some red states to go along.

370
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:02:09pm

re: #357 Eclectic Cyborg

The problem is one person, one vote means California gets to decide every election from here to eternity unless there are some major population shifts.

Not seeing the problem because I really don’t see California as deciding every election from here to eternity.

371
S'latch  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:02:23pm

Sorry, everybody. I’m really suffering with a lot of anger. Donald Trump and the Republians is about to wreck my country and there is nothing I can do about it.

I voted for Hillary Clinton. I wanted Hillary Clinton to win. I know she would have been a good president. She is eminently qualified. I am not a sexist. I have no problem with female leaders. However, I did not like Hillary’s personality. She creeped me out with her staged and calculated manner. But, that’s not fair.

I would have preferred a different candidate earlier on. But immediately after her nomination, I got behind her. In October, I voted for her at the first opportunity to do so.

Now that we are stuck with Trump, it makes me want to revert to my first instinct and hate her and blame her. That is wrong. I will try to stop. But, I am trying to make sense out of my country’s insanity. It is difficult to do. I appreciate all you good people. Thank you for sharing your comments. There’s always good stuff here.

372
Sherlock Hound  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:03:06pm

re: #222 Eric The Fruit Bat

Challenge accepted!

373
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:03:23pm
374
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:07:01pm

gracious winner…*spit*

375
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:09:18pm

re: #374 Backwoods_Sleuth

gracious winner…*spit*

I hope he fails, and fails bigly.

376
Skip Intro  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:10:15pm

re: #375 Myron Falwell (no relation)

I hope he fails, and fails bigly.

He’ll never admit it and neither will his paid hacks and dupes.

377
The Vicious Babushka  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:10:28pm

re: #371 S’latch

However, I did not like Hillary’s personality.

FUCK YOU.

Who the fuck cares about her personality? Are you dating her? Are you married to her?

WE HAVE A FUCKING MONSTER FOR PRESIDENT AND YOU COMPLAIN BECAUSE YOU DON’T WANT HILLARY FOR A BFF.

Go fuck yourself.

378
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:12:21pm
379
Myron Falwell (no relation)  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:14:36pm

re: #376 Skip Intro

He’ll never admit it and neither will his paid hacks and dupes.

They can deny reality all they want to their fucking graves… or to the smoldering remains of the republic.

380
teleskiguy  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:17:05pm

re: #371 S’latch

I am not a sexist. I have no problem with female leaders. However, I did not like Hillary’s personality. She creeped me out with her staged and calculated manner.

You are sexist. You proved it right after you said you weren’t sexist with your asinine opinion of Hillary. Go fuck yourself.

381
Backwoods_Sleuth  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:18:13pm

Hillary should have smiled more.
Or less.
Or not cackled so much.

O_o

382
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:22:51pm

re: #356 Interesting Times

With respect, I’ve answered this question before. Perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read the material in full, so here it is again:

Neoliberalism: the deep story that lies beneath Donald Trump’s triumph

And:

The Clintons’ Dominance of Democratic Politics Is Over—And They Will Not Be Remembered Fondly

The full report referenced in the above quote is here.

Sorry, you seemed to have hinted that her message wasn’t a wide message.

I guess it wasn’t one part (economic) pushed enough, but that gets confusing. And that would be like Ta-Neshi Coates was saying about Bernie…too much white worker issues which made others of color leery of him. So that must have been too much.

You could conclude by all this she needed to walk a tight wire across the grand canyon and some may have given her the office.

A little economic, but not too early, more social, less social, how about some more economic, a little too much… more on Women, no more Blacks, what about immigration? But wait, are we ever going to talk about how Trump is a lying asshole con artist? Well maybe, but to what degree? What about your war record and that bit on trade…mind you we aren’t going to let you change any of your past stance…that is disqualifying?

And Trump could fart on TV in the morning, get on a plane and go and tell everyone he was going to make America great.

Is there any actually balance as to what one candidate had to do and the other didn’t?

Damn. After this thread I’m surprised she did as well as she did.

It all still goes to the real problem then. Too many people seemed to have made a gut uninformed decision when they went to the polls.

383
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:24:21pm

re: #356 Interesting Times

With respect, I’ve answered this question before. Perhaps you didn’t get a chance to read the material in full, so here it is again:

Neoliberalism: the deep story that lies beneath Donald Trump’s triumph

And:

The Clintons’ Dominance of Democratic Politics Is Over—And They Will Not Be Remembered Fondly

The full report referenced in the above quote is here.

I did see that when you posted it before and I was kind of scratching my head. Anyone who listed to her speeches or watched the debates saw exactly this message. Those who didn’t heard the media reports which only talked about her Trump comments.

Here again, I see Hillary being slammed for something over which she had little control. She talked policy all… the… time. Of course she pointed out Trump’s absurdities and disqualifications for office - those were damned important points. That the media only focused on those at the expense of her policy points because that’s where they got the most ratings is not her failing, IMO. It’s theirs.

384
allegro  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:27:10pm

re: #362 Charles Johnson

Why is that a problem? People don’t lose their autonomy when they live in California. Any person in the state is free to vote for whoever they choose.

Another point… I live in Texas and in every presidential election my vote is negated thanks to the EC. There are millions more in my state and other red state just like me. No, California won’t determine every election. We’d be real pleased to help.

385
gocart mozart  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:28:13pm
386
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:29:20pm

re: #371 S’latch

Sorry, everybody. I’m really suffering with a lot of anger. Donald Trump and the Republians is about to wreck my country and there is nothing I can do about it.

I voted for Hillary Clinton. I wanted Hillary Clinton to win. I know she would have been a good president. She is eminently qualified. I am not a sexist. I have no problem with female leaders. However, I did not like Hillary’s personality. She creeped me out with her staged and calculated manner. But, that’s not fair.

I would have preferred a different candidate earlier on. But immediately after her nomination, I got behind her. In October, I voted for her at the first opportunity to do so.

Now that we are stuck with Trump, it makes me want to revert to my first instinct and hate her and blame her. That is wrong. I will try to stop. But, I am trying to make sense out of my country’s insanity. It is difficult to do. I appreciate all you good people. Thank you for sharing your comments. There’s always good stuff here.

Well, being defeated doesn’t help at all. So, a first step…don’t admit and say there is nothing you can do. There are a lot of you out there feeling the same. Gang up and do do something…really anything. Politics depends on action. This whole election, even your own arguments say that.

And I’m out for a bit. Gonna make some meatballs. I’ve had a hankering for them since they were discussed last week. Later.

387
Barefoot Grin  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:30:13pm

re: #380 teleskiguy

You are sexist. You proved it right after you said you weren’t sexist with your asinine opinion of Hillary. Go fuck yourself.

Ain’t gonna win again with that bullshit attitude.

388
ObserverArt  Dec 19, 2016 • 4:35:45pm

re: #384 allegro

Another point… I live in Texas and in every presidential election my vote is negated thanks to the EC. There are millions more in my state and other red state just like me. No, California won’t determine every election. We’d be real pleased to help.

Just saw this comment closing out reading…

Thank You!

Think of how many people that say they aren’t going to vote in a deeply red state because their vote doesn’t count.

And how many who might say they are in a blue state and not needed.

Simply…with a general election your vote really does count. It isn’t “balanced” out.


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