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1 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:08:31pm

I can quote dozens of Islamists saying they want to conquer the world. Maybe that's not their first concern in their discourse but it's a joke to say Islamists as a whole do not seek world domination

2 Laughing Gas  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:23:58pm

Yeah, well until they can build stealth fighters and nuclear submarines and spend $1 trillion on a military budget, they aren't going to succeed in dominating the world.

3 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:24:20pm

re: #1 Elias

I can quote dozens of Islamists saying they want to conquer the world. Maybe that's not their first concern in their discourse but it's a joke to say Islamists as a whole do not seek world domination

So you quoting dozens, which I don't see a link for, counts more than this?

The analysis by Arizona State University’s Center for Strategic Communication looked at how the Quran was used in 2,000 propoganda items from 1998 to 2011, though the majority were from post-2007, that emanated mostly from the Middle East and North Africa. Among the groups analyzed were al Qaeda and al Shabaab, as well as anonymous postings online.

How do you figure?

4 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:27:23pm

As posted at the top:

"Continued claims to the contrary, by both official and unofficial sources, only play into a 'clash of civilizations' narrative that benefits the extremist cause. These claims also undermine the credibility of Western voices, because the audience knows that extremist arguments are really about victimage and deliverance,"

As demonstrated in these comments. Sheesh.

5 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:32:13pm

The problem is the method. To understand the motivations of Islamists, it's not a matter of numbers. When prominent Islamist groups say something, it's enough. Yes, maybe that's not what they focus on the most in their speech, because as the article says, they want to make themselves look like victims to win the war of public opinion. The study assumes that what they say is what they think. Taqiya, an Islamic concept says, at least according to these extremists, that they are allowed to lie in order to serve their Islamic interests.

6 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:32:40pm

re: #4 wrenchwench

As posted at the top:

As demonstrated in these comments. Sheesh.

It's of the utmost importance that you be afraid, very afraid. The Islamists are coming, they're infiltrating your society disguised as "moderate" Muslims, and bringing their creeping Sharia.

When you go to sleep tonight, you'd better check under your bed just to be sure none have snuck in while you were at work. //

7 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:38:52pm

re: #5 Elias

The problem is the method. To understand the motivations of Islamists, it's not a matter of numbers. When prominent Islamist groups say something, it's enough. Yes, maybe that's not what they focus on the most in their speech, because as the article says, they want to make themselves look like victims to win the war of public opinion. The study assumes that what they say is what they think. Taqiya, an Islamic concept says, at least according to these extremists, that they are allowed to lie in order to serve their Islamic interests.

So basically, you're saying Muslims aren't capable of thinking for themselves? If extremist Christians or Jews say something, is that also "enough"?

I can't believe you're bringing up the idiotic Taqiyyah canard. That ignorant, bullshit definition comes from people like Geller, Spencer, Horowitz, etc. What a load of crap. Go educate yourself before you open your mouth.

8 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:39:13pm

Plus, had you heard about Islamists in Europe or America, let's say, 20 years ago ? Now there are Islamists in the West. There is not a week without examples. So isn't that a proof that they are acting to expand ?

9 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:42:24pm

re: #7 CuriousLurker

So basically, you're saying Muslims aren't capable of thinking for themselves? If extremist Christians or Jews say something, is that also "enough"?

I can't believe you're bringing up the idiotic Taqiyyah canard. That ignorant, bullshit definition comes from people like Geller, Spencer, Horowitz, etc. What a load of crap. Go educate yourself before you open your mouth.

I don't understand what you mean.

I hate Geller and Spencer.
Did you read the sentence "at least according to these (Islamist) extremists". And even if you don't believe such a concept exists, it's obvious that totalitarian extremist ideologues have to lie to attract people to their "cause," you are not really going to trust them, are you ?

10 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:43:51pm

Frank says:

Why do you necessarily have to be wrong just because a few million people think you are?


I'm starting to think Frank is not random.

11 freetoken  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:47:30pm

re: #8 Elias

So isn't that a proof that they are acting to expand ?

What do you mean by "Islamist" and by "they"?

As for 20 years ago - it was actually 34 years ago during the Iranian revolution that the idea of spreading Islam hit the American public pundit-sphere. Before then in American culture there was fear and pejoratives over "Arabs", and even though American international diplomacy is early connected to Islamic nations (c.f. Tripoli) the public at large was not concerned with Islam until the Iranian crisis.

The US is not Europe - in Europe the old tensions over Islam did not manifest itself here (or if it did so, it was not obvious.)

12 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:48:06pm

re: #9 Elias

I don't understand what you mean.

I hate Geller and Spencer.
Did you read the sentence "at least according to these (Islamist) extremists". And even if you don't believe in such concept, it's obvious that totalitarian extremist ideologues have to lie to attract people to their "cause," you are not really going to trust them, are you ?

If they were engaging in your definition of Taqiyyah, then the ISLAMISTS WOULD BE HIDING, pretending to be moderate, not preaching their hateful ideology out in the open. Use your brain.

They don''t need to lie, they just need to cherry-pick and reframe things. Propaganda.

13 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:48:14pm

re: #8 Elias

Plus, had you heard about Islamists in Europe or America, let's say, 20 years ago ? Now there are Islamists in the West. There is not a week without examples. So isn't that a proof that they are acting to expand ?

There are more Mexicans in the US than there were 20 years ago. Proof that Mexico wants to conquer the US!!!

14 freetoken  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:52:11pm

"World Domination" is a fool's errand anyway.

It just doesn't happen, because it is not a stable state for humans, who are predisposed to aperiodic violent chaos.

15 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:53:10pm

re: #11 freetoken

But were there Islamists in Europe ?
By Islamists, I mean Islamic fundamentalists, and by "they" I mean Islamists.

re: #12 CuriousLurker

How can they gain popularity if they hide ?

re: #13 wrenchwench

You do realize I'm talking about Islamists, not Muslims, right ?

16 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:56:42pm

Conquering the world is not necessarily in a military sense. Islamists want to gain power and popularity everywhere they can and they are working actively for that.

17 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:57:38pm

re: #15 Elias

re: #12 CuriousLurker

How can they gain popularity if they hide ?

How can they trick anyone with their lies if they don't hide their agenda?

You say you're not talking about Islamists, not Muslims, so who are they going to fool then? Hindus?

18 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:58:58pm

re: #15 Elias

re: #13 wrenchwench

You do realize I'm talking about Islamists, not Muslims, right ?

I believe most Islamists are Muslims.

Did you read all the way to the end of the article? Do you think it is more valuable to look at what people DO, rather than what they SAY? From the link at the top:

Extremists use a "deliverance narrative to position themselves as the champion that can deliver the community from evil," the researchers wrote. "However, as we have argued elsewhere, extremists do little that is champion-like. They have not unseated any apostate rulers, and their victims are overwhelmingly likely to be Muslims."

The study cites data from the West Point Combating Terrorism Center that estimated al Qaeda militants were 38 times more likely to kill a Muslim than a Westerner, based on data from 2006 to 2008.

19 freetoken  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:59:17pm

re: #15 Elias

Depending on how one defines "Europe", Islam has been in Europe for a very long time, since the first movement of muslims into the remnants of the Eastern Roman Empire.

"Fundamentalist" is our modern perspective of certain individuals/groups. A thousand years ago someone we today call a "fundamentalist" would have been understood in different terms.

20 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 4:59:33pm

re: #16 Elias

Conquering the world is not necessarily in a military sense. Islamists want to gain power and popularity everywhere they can and they are working actively for that.

Yeah, because they're SO popular here in America and in Europe. //

This conversation is hopeless.

21 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:01:48pm

re: #20 CuriousLurker

Please read this article. It's not Geller, it's not Spencer, it's the New Republic.
[Link: www.tnr.com...]

I knew you were all very liberal but I couldn't imagine that you were so naive about the threat of Islamism.

22 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:03:04pm

re: #16 Elias

Conquering the world is not necessarily in a military sense. Islamists want to gain power and popularity everywhere they can and they are working actively for that.

Riiiight. I mean why wouldn't they be popular? Especially with women & non-Muslims. They're soooo warm & cuddly, like kittens—what's not to love?. *headdesk*

23 freetoken  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:06:13pm

re: #21 Elias

"Islamism" has no power where people embrace a modern (i.e., post Enlightenment) worldview.

Only those who have their own atavistic worldview (such as religious identity hawks of our own, in this country) fear "Islamism", as they fear the competition.

24 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:06:56pm

re: #22 CuriousLurker

Because you're smart and well educated. But do you think in the French "banlieues", which are almost ghettos where the youth of North African descent has no hope and is unemployed, these ideas can't get popular ? Why do you think there has been hundreds of tags of praise of Merah ? Again, I'm putting that on the fact you live in America.

25 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:19:55pm

re: #21 Elias

Please read this article. It's not Geller, it's not Spencer, it's the New Republic.
[Link: www.tnr.com...]

Oh, you mean this Paul Berman who wrote the boook Terror and Liberalism? No thanks. He's screaming about blasphemy laws—there are none the U.S. and there never will be as it would be against the First Amendment of our Constitution.

I knew you were all very liberal but I couldn't imagine that you were so naive about the threat of Islamism.

ROFL! Naive? Really? I've been Muslim for 20+ years, but I guess you know more about Islam & Islamism than I do, huh?

Our conversation is finished now.

26 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:23:51pm

re: #25 CuriousLurker

You haven't answered to my other comment. It's much easier to attack the person than to actually read and judge the article. Huge crime, he wrote about Terror and Liberalism, that means he must be an awful Islamophobic neocon.
Really, you live in North America which probably isn't endangered by Islamism. I live in Paris. In Paris, there are regular demonstrations with Hezbollah and Hamas flags. Do you understand that ? Do you understand that, (screw it, I'm saying it) as a Jew, that scares me, or don't you ? No, I must be an Islamophobic neocon too ?
I'm sorry but I can't use another word, it's naiveté. It's a shame that liberals are less eager to denounce the dangers of Islamism, an ideology which goes against every liberal principal.

27 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:33:16pm

re: #26 Elias

You haven't answered to my other comment. It's much easier to attack the person than to actually read and judge the article. Huge crime, he wrote about Terror and Liberalism, that means he must be an awful Islamophobic neocon.

It's not an article, it's a book review. It's a set of anecdotes about a set of anecdotes. Why do you favor it over the article linked above, which uses a large enough set that it qualifies as data? You say we're all liberal and naive. I say you boldly assert what you believe is truth, but with little or nothing to back it up.

28 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:40:10pm

re: #24 Elias

Because you're smart and well educated. But do you think in the French "banlieues", which are almost ghettos where the youth of North African descent has no hope and is unemployed, these ideas can't get popular ? Why do you think there has been hundreds of tags of praise of Merah ? Again, I'm putting that on the fact you live in America.

Popular enough for world domination? Um, no.

re: #26 Elias

You haven't answered to my other comment. It's much easier to attack the person than to actually read and judge the article.

Now I have answered it. I've read articles by Berman before and wasn't impressed. Additionally, I've already responded that blasphemy laws aren't going to happen here, so his screeching about them is nonsense WRT the U.S. What happens in Europe is, frankly, Europe's problem.

Huge crime, he wrote about Terror and Liberalism, that means he must be an awful Islamophobic neocon.

Your words, not mine. You don't know me anywhere near well enough to know where I stand politically or morally, so piss off. Go distribute your craven fearmongering to more willing buyers. You just got added to the list of people I ignore.*

*Hint: Further baiting won't work.

29 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:40:59pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

Because the very idea of the study is wrong ! It's not by studying thousands of speech of Islamist propaganda and observing that they put less focus on world domination that you can actually conclude that Islamists do not seek world domination. As I said, of course they will focus on foreign intrusions because that's what makes them popular, with the image of the "resistant". But it depends what they mean by world domination. Can you answer to the part about demonstrations in Paris ? Isn't that a sign that support for Islamism is growing ?

30 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:44:49pm

re: #28 CuriousLurker

You will not respond but I'm not saying "sharia law" will be applied tomorrow in the US, I'm not that kind of fearmonger. I'm saying Islamist groups are growing everywhere, it's a real cause of concern and it proves that Islamists have a global agenda, if not exactly "world domination"

31 CuriousLurker  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:46:22pm

re: #27 wrenchwench

It's all that liberal tolerance & multiculturalism that's to blame for Europe being in imminent danger of Islamic domination. Sound familiar? Echoes of last summer...and we all know where that guy go his ideas from.

32 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 5:49:11pm

re: #31 CuriousLurker

Never said that, but never mind. I never said world domination would occur, I say that's what Islamists want.

I hate the people you mention, I hate them. I "fight" members of the tribe who think like them.

It really saddens me that you think I am an anti-Muslim bigot. I'm really not that king of guy.

33 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:01:09pm

re: #1 Elias

I can quote dozens of Islamists Catholics saying they want to conquer the world for Christ. Maybe that's not their first concern in their discourse but it's a joke to say Islamists as a whole do not seek world domination

Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.

34 Varek Raith  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:01:12pm

re: #32 Elias

Never said that, but never mind. I never said world domination would occur, I say that's what Islamists want.

I hate the people you mention, I hate them. I "fight" members of the tribe who think like them.

It really saddens me that you think I am an anti-Muslim bigot. I'm really not that king of guy.

You sure as hell sound like one.

35 theye1  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:01:38pm

re: #30 Elias

What kind of Islamism? Are they Shia, Salafi, Muslim Brotherhood, Sunni or Democratic? Islamism, like Islam, isn't a monolithic entity and it very fractured into differing ideologies.

re: #26 Elias
Since when is merely showing up for a protest, especially with the two groups that garner the most sympathies in the Muslim community, as indication of political thought? It might scare you (lol), but most Muslims think Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate resistance groups.

Secondly, Paris is a poor example, especially with the relative poverty and isolation of it's Muslim community.

36 wrenchwench  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:02:12pm

re: #29 Elias

Because the very idea of the study is wrong ! It's not by studying thousands of speech of Islamist propaganda and observing that they put less focus on world domination that you can actually conclude that Islamists do not seek world domination. As I said, of course they will focus on foreign intrusions because that's what makes them popular, with the image of the "resistant". But it depends what they mean by world domination. Can you answer to the part about demonstrations in Paris ? Isn't that a sign that support for Islamism is growing ?

So it's useless to study what people say and do, it's better that I take your word for what they really think. Got it.

37 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:10:29pm

re: #36 wrenchwench

How they act, it's useful. And it's safe to say that since 1928 and the foundation of the "modern" islamist ideology, it has developed everywhere. How can you say the opposite ? It's nonsensical

38 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:15:53pm

re: #35 theye1

What kind of Islamism? Are they Shia, Salafi, Muslim Brotherhood, Sunni or Democratic? Islamism, like Islam, isn't a monolithic entity and it very fractured into differing ideologies.

re: #26 Elias
Since when is merely showing up for a protest, especially with the two groups that garner the most sympathies in the Muslim community, as indication of political thought? It might scare you (lol), but most Muslims think Hezbollah and Hamas are legitimate resistance groups.

Secondly, Paris is a poor example, especially with the relative poverty and isolation of it's Muslim community.

I agree, I'm not saying the opposite but I'm talking about all political kinds. Most Salafis are apolitical, they have a very strict vision of Islam but don't get involved to spread it or anything, they just practice their religion in a very strict manner, so I guess I'm not talking about Salafis, except for Wahhabism, of course.

No, I can't and I won't believe this. Showing up for a demonstration and chanting "Hamas resistance", "Death to the Jews" is, I think, a pretty good indication of your political thought. But you know, maybe they are humanist when they are not at the demos.

39 Elias  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:25:22pm

Just one "yes or no" question. Do you guys think Islamism is a totalitarian extremist ideology dangerous to the world ?

40 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 6:43:17pm

re: #39 Elias

It is a totalitarian extremist ideology, but it is not a danger to the world. It is a very handy bogeyman for people with agendas or a fear addiction that needs feeding.

41 theye1  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 7:01:19pm

re: #38 Elias

Salafis (or it's Indian Subcontinent Cousin, the Deoband Movement) are political, don't be believe the bullshit about not being involved in politics. The only reason that they claim to stay out of politics is because they can't dominate it or influence it, most Muslims in the west find them abhorrent.

re: #38 Elias

No, I can't and I won't believe this.

Then you're wrong, it's simple as that. Most Muslims, even in countries that are supportive of Israel, like Azerbaijan or Albania, are also supportive of Hamas and, especially Hezbollah. You forget that Hezbollah was born out of the occupation of Southern Lebanon by Israel, and Hamas claims that Israel has turned Gaza into a Jail. It's not an excuse for their crimes, but you can see why it has popular support.

re: #39 Elias

It's never that simple. Islamism is large Umbrella that includes parties like the Justice and Development Party or Egypt's Islamic Labour Party (which is ironically, more left-wing then America's Republican Party). Let's not even forget that almost all the Pro-american politicians in Afghanistan can be described as Islamist. Hell, Afghanistan can be called an Islamist state.

42 Randall Gross  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 7:49:37pm

Here's a hint Elias: the people trying to tell you that Muslims are all hellbent on dominating all of earth are the same idiots telling you that Atheists are hellbent on controlling all of earth. If you look at the demographics alone you can see that it's impossible for either group. Get a grip and get a clue.

43 Bob Levin  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:12:25pm

re: #39 Elias

I think the question is: Do you think that French society is capable of assimilating immigrants? If the answer is no, then the idea of being an immigrant victim is not going away, according to the study.

You're putting the onus on the Muslim immigrants rather than the overall society.

You've hinted that there is a great difference between the American history of immigration and French immigration history. You might have something there. If you feel that French society is too rigid, then perhaps it's not the place for you.

I think you've got some soul searching to do. Muslims aren't the issue.

44 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:14:47pm

re: #39 Elias

Just one "yes or no" question. Do you guys think Islamism is a totalitarian extremist ideology dangerous to the world ?

I know it's rude to answer a question with a question but in this case I need to know, do you throw the -ism at the end of the word so that you can define what it means? Seems like a nebulous concept to me, like Christian or Jewish fundamentalism, ultra-Orthodox, etc. Theocratic totalitarianism seems dangerous to me in any flavor, is that what we're talking about, and if so why restrict the discussion to Islam?

Understand that the plurality of terrorism might be conducted by people who consider themselves muslims, but more than a decade of continuously taking the fight to their countries, occupation and retaliation has actually seemed to exacerbate the situation. So why not focus on fundamentalism itself as the problem, disengage, try to get out of the enemy making business and deal with the forces in our own midst that appear to be addicted to perpetuating the conflict.

45 What, me worry?  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 8:51:23pm

Here is the actual report from the ASU. You can cut to the "cliff notes" near the back. I don't agree with any of it. It's unrealistic.
[Link: csc.asu.edu...]

There's a distinction between "Islamists" v "Jihadists" not addressed in the report, nor the many Muslim sects and cultures. Jihadists are radicals, and it would certainly be foolhardy to believe they are peaceful, even if they are not majority. We need only look to NY, DC, Bali, Madrid and London in the last dozen years (not counting the 1000s killed by bin Laden and ALQ over the last 20 years prior). Whatever the chatter may seem to say.

If we talk "Islamists", we can look at models like Turkey and Indonesia. Two countries with nearly all Muslim citizens, but function as republics with a constitution. Maybe not the most perfect of situations as there's still extremist activity, but it takes many generations, maybe 100s of years, for this kind of change to become ingrained.

Of course, there are the oppressive sort, monarchies and dictatorships, many of which are now fledgling republics... kind of. Afghanistan, Yemen, Iraq... who knows what the future holds.

The West should be investing in classical liberal movements with Islamists/Muslims in hopes that eventually Muslim countries can move towards democratically elected republics. Egypt and Libya are still trying to get there. Think tanks could bring together the best minds of East and West. Sharing of texts, history, experience and culture. Before the Arab Spring turns into a complete Winter, could it actually be done? I don't know. I like the idea a great deal. I got it from Amr Bargisi, an Egyptian activist.
[Link: www.tabletmag.com...]

Jihadists want no part of this and there's enough of them to violently derail any type of progress towards these goals.

I certainly like the idea better than trying to understand why they hate us, which are the reports' suggestions. And then what to do, I don't know. They don't know either. Bargisi's ideas are at least forward thinking.

46 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:19:53pm

re: #5 Elias

The problem is the method. To understand the motivations of Islamists, it's not a matter of numbers. When prominent Islamist groups say something, it's enough. Yes, maybe that's not what they focus on the most in their speech, because as the article says, they want to make themselves look like victims to win the war of public opinion. The study assumes that what they say is what they think. Taqiya, an Islamic concept says, at least according to these extremists, that they are allowed to lie in order to serve their Islamic interests.

What they say to their own followers should certainly be of interest to the rest of the world. The assumption that you can tell 'what they think', or that the way they present themselves to potential recruits is unimportant is fairly silly.

'Taqiya' in the sense you're using it is nonsense. It's become a catchphrase for people who who seem to think that politicians and religious leaders lying their asses off and feeling justified is a uniquely Islamic concept.

I think the issue is not 'would these guys like to see a worldwide fundamentalist caliphate'--I'm sure if you offered it to them on a silver platter, they'd take it--but 'what are their actual objectives and agendas at this time'. If you don't see this as important, you probably also think that you learned everything you needed to about Islam on 9/11.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:23:29pm

re: #8 Elias

Plus, had you heard about Islamists in Europe or America, let's say, 20 years ago ? Now there are Islamists in the West. There is not a week without examples. So isn't that a proof that they are acting to expand ?

Yes, I'd heard of them. By 1992? Were you not paying attention? Because I was walking by posters for radical groups in London just a year or two after that.

You're trying really hard to substitute your anecdotal experience and gut feelings for actual research. Now, I don't know who these people are who did the study, and it may be flawed as hell, but it needs to be engaged with as research, not dismissed because it doesn't fit with what you believe personally.

48 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:26:00pm

re: #12 CuriousLurker

If they were engaging in your definition of Taqiyyah, then the ISLAMISTS WOULD BE HIDING, pretending to be moderate, not preaching their hateful ideology out in the open. Use your brain.

They don''t need to lie, they just need to cherry-pick and reframe things. Propaganda.

Of course, moderates are also accused of employing Taqiyyah, as are extremists, anarcho-syndicalists, and bicycle riders.

Oddly, the only ones not accused of Taqiyyah are the guys who draw audiences by claiming to have seen the light and become evangelical Christians, and dedicated their lives to fighting Islam. People who talk about Taqiyyah love them, and tell them everything.

This might be a mistake.

//

49 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:29:06pm
re: #15 Elias

re: #12 CuriousLurker

How can they gain popularity if they hide ?

But that's the actual definition of taqiyyah, to pretend to be something else and keep your head down so you won't get in trouble.

The idea that it refers to a strategic pattern of lying about your motivations (although everything you say about your motivations is true, if it fits the taqiyyah-paranoiac's personal beliefs about what you actually think), for political gain, is a very modern interpretation, and one that I haven't seen evidence is actually used by modern Islamic extremists.

50 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:30:42pm

re: #21 Elias

Please read this article. It's not Geller, it's not Spencer, it's the New Republic.
[Link: www.tnr.com...]

I knew you were all very liberal but I couldn't imagine that you were so naive about the threat of Islamism.

Yes, but your article doesn't disprove what the study is saying.

Do you understand what the study is saying? It's NOT saying that Islamic extremism is not a threat to the West.

51 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Jul 10, 2012 9:32:27pm

re: #26 Elias

I'm sorry but I can't use another word, it's naiveté. It's a shame that liberals are less eager to denounce the dangers of Islamism, an ideology which goes against every liberal principal.

I'm not sure where you're getting the idea that 'liberals', as represented by our motley crew here, aren't 'eager to denounce the dangers of Islamism'. We're just not dismissing this study out of hand. You are, thereby dismissing a potentially important piece of research in dealing effectively with these movements.

52 researchok  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:11:46am

The headline is misleading. Islamists are nit a monolithic group.

Go from there.

53 Elias  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 2:53:46am

re: #44 goddamnedfrank

Because for me, Islamism is the new totalitarian ideology of our time and we must fight it like Nazism, like Communism. There are some Christian and Jewish fundamentalists, but they are not ready to do as much as Islamists: kill, get killed. (Except a few examples) This ideology is killing people every week, mostly Muslims. And we are here discussing if they are telling the truth ? Obviously they say one thing to the West, another to their followers.

54 Elias  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 2:58:18am

re: #41 theye1

Listen, I know a lot of Muslims who loathe Hamas and Hezbollah. And if what you're saying is true, then it's even more worrying. That's what I'm trying to say. I'm trying to say that we cannot conclude from this study that " yeah, ok, let's just leave from Afghanistan, leave from Muslim lands (which will never be accomplished given the fact that for extremist Israel is Muslim land), and it will be okay, we won't hear about Islamists anymore." It's crazy and dangerous to think that.

55 Elias  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 3:01:23am

re: #42 Randall Gross

I never said that. Again, I think never Islamists will succeed but they are getting increasingly "noisy" in Europe, and that's a serious issue.

56 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 4:15:47am

re: #53 Elias

I'm going to try to help here, until I have to go about my business.

Because for me, Islamism is the new totalitarian ideology of our time and we must fight it like Nazism, like Communism.

Tyranny never really went out of style. Your question should be, what are the French doing to in relation to the segregation? If they are enforcing segregation, then you are in a bad position.

I personally do not know what the French are doing, so you'll have to fill that in.

57 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 4:19:17am

re: #54 Elias

You're not interpreting the study properly. The study is simply saying that part and parcel of this criminal behavior is the necessity of thinking oneself to be a victim. This is important research.

Draw no geopolitical implications from this--other than taking a stance of refusing to acknowledge the victim role.

58 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 4:21:32am

re: #55 Elias

Then where do you need to be? Maybe Europe isn't the best place. From what you're saying, I'm doubting it.

59 Elias  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 10:56:33am

re: #57 Bob Levin

Then the headline is misleading. To finish the debate, read this
[Link: elderofziyon.blogspot.fr...]

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 12:59:29pm

re: #53 Elias

Because for me, Islamism is the new totalitarian ideology of our time and we must fight it like Nazism, like Communism. There are some Christian and Jewish fundamentalists, but they are not ready to do as much as Islamists: kill, get killed. (Except a few examples) This ideology is killing people every week, mostly Muslims. And we are here discussing if they are telling the truth ? Obviously they say one thing to the West, another to their followers.

Oh, Christ.

Yes, Islamic fundamentalism is a totalitarian ideology in many ways.

But you're missing the point. First, 'are they telling the truth' is beside the point. Only God knows what they secretly think deep deep down. The study looks at what they say.

Secondly, YES, people have been known to say one thing to the West, another to followers. IIUC, the study is about what they say to their followers. This is not a study, unless I completely misunderstand, of statements released in English or French to foreigners, this is internal propaganda. What do you find so inappropriate about studying that for patterns and data?

61 Bob Levin  Wed, Jul 11, 2012 1:00:14pm

re: #59 Elias

Unfortunately, you'll have to summarize the article. For some reason, my computer does not like that particular blog site.

But why focus on the headline when you have the entire article to read?


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