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249 comments
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Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 12:40:37pm |
Karsh's account, for instance, runs directly counter to the overarching message of New York Times coverage which is that, but for myriad Israeli shortcomings, the lambs would lie down with the lions.
The anti-semetism Jews suffered was a European origin one.
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state. So traditionally the Jews lamb has lain with the Muslim lion until the mid 20th century.
| 2 |
sliv_the_eli Tue, Aug 21, 2012 1:14:01pm |
re: #1 Destro
More historically and factually challeneged nonsense.
Although Muslim antisemitism historically was not as virulent as Christian-inspired antisemitism, there are roots of Muslim antisemitism as old as Islam itself. Just one example may be found in the well-known Hadith, which is expressly made a part of the Hamas Charter, that:
"The Day of Judgement will not come about until Muslims fight the Jews , when the Jew will hide behind stones and trees. The stones and trees will say O Muslims, O Abdullah, there is a Jew behind me, come and kill him. Only the Gharkad tree, (a certain kind of tree) would not do that because it is one of the trees of the Jews."
Moreover, the treatment of Jews during the era of the Islamic empire was hardly benign.
In addition, although the form of antisemitism that is today pervasive in the Muslim world finds many of its sources in European Christian antisemitism, the introduction of such antisemisism into the Arab and Muslim world dates back to Hajj Amin al-Husseini's alliance with Nazi Germany during World War II, before the estabilshment of the State of Israel.
| 3 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 1:58:03pm |
re: #2 sliv_the_eli
More historically and factually challeneged nonsense.
Although Muslim antisemitism historically was not as virulent as Christian-inspired antisemitism, there are roots of Muslim antisemitism as old as Islam itself. Just one example may be found in the well-known Hadith, which is expressly made a part of the Hamas Charter, that:
Moreover, the treatment of Jews during the era of the Islamic empire was hardly benign.
In addition, although the form of antisemitism that is today pervasive in the Muslim world finds many of its sources in European Christian antisemitism, the introduction of such antisemisism into the Arab and Muslim world dates back to Hajj Amin al-Husseini's alliance with Nazi Germany during World War II, before the estabilshment of the State of Israel.
Pamela Geller, is that you? Or are you Robert Spencer? This sort of crap is betetr suited for their kook websites than here.
| 4 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:04:04pm |
re: #3 Destro
Pamela Geller, is that you? Or are you Robert Spencer? This sort of crap is betetr suited for their kook websites than here.
Was there anything factually incorrect about those remarks?
Or is this another pivot and attack?
I don't know enough about the subject so perhaops you can enlighten me.
| 5 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:04:07pm |
re: #3 Destro
Pamela Geller, is that you? Or are you Robert Spencer? This sort of crap is betetr suited for their kook websites than here.
Are you able to refute it? Someone disagrees and you compare him/her to Geller and Spencer? Really?
That's pathetic.
| 6 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:12:25pm |
re: #1 Destro
More bullshit
Anti semitism in Arab countries was rampant long before Israel was founded.
See the Damascus Affair
....pogroms spread through the Middle East and North Africa: Aleppo (1850, 1875), Damascus (1840, 1848, 1890), Beirut (1862, 1874), Dayr al-Qamar (1847), Jaffa (1876), Jerusalem (1847, 1870 and 1895), Cairo (1844, 1890, 1901–02), Mansura (1877), Alexandria (1870, 1882, 1901–07), Port Said (1903, 1908), and Damanhur (1871, 1873, 1877, 1891).[14]
Lots more examples if you like.
LOTS MORE
Pivot and attack?
| 7 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:15:44pm |
re: #4 researchok
re: #5 Eclectic Infidel
1,500 years of history shows that on a level of 1-10 only China was at 10 being no repression what-so-ever that I can find.
The Islamic world was at various times a 9 to about a 7 before the founding of Israel.
Europe was full on repression until the Western European Enlightenment (continued in the east) and then a return to it after WW1 with the rise of the Nazis.
So to cherry pick the entire Islamic history to demonize Islamic civilization for modern purposes is very Pamela Gellerish.
I stand by my statement, Israel was the idea of European Jews to escape European Christian repression and by establishing a nation state in part to help end anti-semetisim had as a sad bi-rpoduct caused the Islamic world to switch over from being relatively tolerant of Jews to adopting European style anti-semetism. An example of the law of unintended consequences.
| 8 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:22:52pm |
re: #6 researchok
The Damascus affairs shows events influenced by European anti-semetism and it is not a surprise that it happened during the 19th century and in the Ottoman empire and those places had a high number of Christians so we can't be sure who was doing the rioting (my money is on Ottoman Christians rioting against Jews).
So yea, let's condemn an entire race and religion based on what happened in the Ottoman empire in the 19th century that may have been led by Christians and not Muslims.
| 9 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:25:29pm |
re: #7 Destro
That's nice.
Sources please?
You know, since your such an authority on scholarship.
Pivot and attack without even references is about as low as it gets,
Ties only with defending bigoted regimes with open genocidal intent.
| 10 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:27:53pm |
re: #8 Destro
More bullshit and pivot and attack.
You stated there was virtually no antisemitism prior to the state of Israel.
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state.
That is one big shovel you have there, 'scholar'.
And what about the other attacks, 'scholar'?
And would you like more examples?
| 11 |
sliv_the_eli Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:46:19pm |
re: #3 Destro
Sorry, Charlie. Facts is facts. You should learn them before posting your drivel on this forum.
| 12 |
sliv_the_eli Tue, Aug 21, 2012 2:59:42pm |
re: #7 Destro
re: #5 Eclectic Infidel
I stand by my statement, Israel was the idea of European Jews to escape European Christian repression and by establishing a nation state in part to help end anti-semetisim had as a sad bi-rpoduct caused the Islamic world to switch over from being relatively tolerant of Jews to adopting European style anti-semetism. An example of the law of unintended consequences.
That you stand by your statement comes as no surprise. Nor is your alleged, but typically factually challenged, basis for doing so.
You clearly confuse the birth of the post-Enlightenment modern Zionist movement, which was both a response to Christian-inspired antisemitism in Europe and an outgrowth of modern political movements aimed at self-determination of peoples in their traditional homeland, with the idea of reviving Jewish sovereignty in Israel, which has been a core element of Jewish life since the Roman conquest.
As for your pie-in-the-sky assertion that antisemitism in the Islamic world was simply a byproduct of the modern Zionist movement and was virtually non-existent beforehand, Researchok's post #6 above cites more than a few instances of anti-Jewish pogroms in the Muslim/Arab world that pre-date the modern Zionist movement and the growth of the Yisuv.
Of course, none of us expect you to be bound by, or even interetsed in, the facts.
| 13 |
sliv_the_eli Tue, Aug 21, 2012 3:02:15pm |
re: #8 Destro
The Damascus affairs shows events influenced by European anti-semetism and it is not a surprise that it happened during the 19th century and in the Ottoman empire and those places had a high number of Christians so we can't be sure who was doing the rioting (my money is on Ottoman Christians rioting against Jews).
So yea, let's condemn an entire race and religion based on what happened in the Ottoman empire in the 19th century that may have been led by Christians and not Muslims.
Sources? I thought not.
| 14 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 4:04:15pm |
re: #2 sliv_the_eli
I just want to point out two things as briefly as possible.
1.) The well-known hadith you refer to has a context which Hamas has apparently (and not surprisingly) stripped it of. It refers to the approach of Judgement Day and a specific number (1000) of Jews who have gone over to the dark side, i.e. taken the side of al-Dajjal (the false messiah). Let me back up a little...
It goes like this: In Islamic eschatology, first the Mahdi (rightly guided one) arrives to correct religion and reestablish rectitude & harmony. Righteous people of all faiths will pledge allegiance to him. Around this time, the Dajjal will also show up and other people will pledge allegiance to him (among them are mentioned 70K each of Tartars, Jews, and people of Khorasan in Iran, so this would obliviously also include wayward Muslims). The two personages (and their armies) will commence battling each other. The Dajjal will start conquering the world country by country.
In the midst of all this upheaval is when Jesus (a.s.), the true Messiah, returns. He descends in Jerusalem and upon opening the gate of the city is confronted with the Dajjal and 1000 of his armed Jewish followers. Jesus (a.s.) then takes over leading the righteous against al-Dajjal. When the Dajjal sees Jesus he dissolves and runs away, but Jesus (a.s.) catches up with him and kills him. It is at this point that the treasonous Jews who had taken his side try to hide and are given up by the stones & trees.
The reference to "O Muslims" would be a reference to all the righteous people who had pledged allegiance to the Mahdi (i.e. the people who "submitted" to God, not Muslims as we understand the term right now). This is the context of the hadith.
Obviously, the reference isn't to the present-day Jews as the neither the Mahdi nor the Dajjal have arrived, nor has Jesus (a.s.) returned. And, again, it refers to a very specific subset of Jews in a very specific place (outside one of the gates of Jerusalem—I'm not sure which one). Hamas is cherry-picking and leaving out the context, no doubt counting on people's ignorance + their fear/anger/resentment. Or maybe they have their own "scholars" who interpret things to their benefit.
2.) During each one of our five daily prayers we're required to send "greetings" to the Prophet (s.a.w.s.). This consists of asking God to bless Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) and his family/progeny as well as He blessed the prophet Ibrahim (a.s.) and his family/progeny, which, in Islam, would include the descendants of both Ishmael and Isaac. The greetings, roughly translated:
O Allah, bestow grace on Muhammad and the people of Muhammad as you have bestowed grace on Ibrahim and the people of Ibrahim. O Allah, bestow blessings on Muhammad and the people of Muhammad as you bestowed blessings on Ibrahim and the people of Ibrahim. Surely You are the Most Praiseworthy, the Most Glorious.
My point is how can we revere Ibrahim (a.s.), wish peace upon him whenever we mention his name1, ask God for the same type of blessings on our own Prophet that he & his people got, and yet simultaneously hate all his descendants? I don't know how the hate got to where it is and I'm no scholar, but I'm pretty sure things are not supposed to be like this.
So much for brevity, huh? //
Anyway, carry on. I don't want to get in the middle of whatever dust-up you guys are having.
----
1. a.s. = alayhi salaam = peace be upon him
| 15 |
sliv_the_eli Tue, Aug 21, 2012 4:38:32pm |
re: #14 CuriousLurker
Thank you for the context and explanation. I am confident it will be both helpful and edifying to those who read it and approach the subject with an open mind.
A quick note regarding the question you raise concerning how it can be that those who revere the same Patriarch could come to hate his desendants. Your question raises a theological problem that arises, in my view, from the fact that Islam claims not only to perfectly represent Allah's will here on Earth, but that, as your explanation suggests, it ultimately does so by contrasting itself to the claims of the monotheistic religions that came before it. As with Christianity, Islam therefore defines itself to a certain extent as "not Jewish" and defines those adhering to Judaism as being necessarily opposed to the perfection represented by Islam. Both Christian and Muslim Jew-hatred thus have similar roots in that they define Judaism as being opposed to the perfection that they represent.
It is not by accident, therefore, that Hamas cites to a Hadith purporting to demonstrate Jews' opposition to the Islamic Propht Muhammad as support for its genocidal platform. Jewish rejection of Islam, like Jewish rejection of Christianity, is a fundamental element of the Jew-hatred that motivate groups like Hamas. And Islamic claims to superiority -- not in the racist sense, but in the sense of being the perfect embodiment of Allah's will -- provide the theological support to the Jew-hatred that groups such as Hamas promote.
So much for my "quick note".
| 16 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 5:03:01pm |
re: #15 sliv_the_eli
So much for my "quick note".
Heh, yeah, these things don't lend themselves well to quick notes.
Yes, Islam does see itself as the perfection of (Abrahamic) religion, but I never took that as a license to hate or look down on anyone. Quite the opposite, in fact—it brings more responsibility. Also, why is the Muslim animosity towards Jews greater than that toward Christians if both groups rejected Muhammad's prophethood?
That said, the superiority thing flows in both directions. Everyone thinks his/her truth is The Truth™. According to Christians Jesus died to clean their sins, so accepting him makes them special. Jews have a special covenant with God and consider themselves chosen by Him, no?
I know you know I'm not trying to argue or say one of us is better/worse than the other. I just find it all rather puzzling and you're one of the few people I know who can approach the subject with any calm. We were all given brains and a "users manual", so we should be able to figure some of this stuff out through discussion. Maybe I'm naive, but I'm pretty sure that when we're fighting/hating/killing each other we're not doing things the right way.
| 17 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 6:24:49pm |
re: #1 Destro
So traditionally the Jews lamb has lain with the Muslim lion until the mid 20th century.
I'm as enthusiastic about the more golden moments of the Jewish communities of the Muslim world as anyone, but...bullshit.
This is like saying that that the North was a paradise for black Americans. Did the worst shit happen up there? No. See? It was great.
The State of Israel did not cause the invention of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.
| 18 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 6:30:34pm |
re: #8 Destro
So yea, let's condemn an entire race and religion based on what happened in the Ottoman empire in the 19th century that may have been led by Christians and not Muslims.
Am I 'condemning an entire race and religion' when I say that for approximately a thousand years, Christian Europe hated and persecuted Jews, eventually rising to the level of attempted-and-damn-near-succeeded genocide, and still is pretty goddamn anti-Semitic, especially in some areas?
I certainly don't mean to be. Christians and Europeans have done some damn cool stuff. But racism and religious bigotry is a big part of history, almost everywhere in the world. Pretending there isn't a history of anti-Semitism in the Middle East that pre-dated Israel and has nothing to do with Israel's actions is ludicrous.
| 19 |
Bob Levin Tue, Aug 21, 2012 7:01:32pm |
re: #14 CuriousLurker
Upding just because you were able to lay in a footnote. I love footnotes. Informative too.
| 20 |
Bob Levin Tue, Aug 21, 2012 7:07:20pm |
re: #8 Destro
Okay, c'mon. What's your first language? The mask is practically falling off of your face.
You've twice used the canard that Israel is hijacking US foreign policy, at least twice. And you used the blood libel when responding to researchok just a few days ago.
| 21 |
Bob Levin Tue, Aug 21, 2012 7:11:20pm |
re: #16 CuriousLurker
Jews have a special covenant with God and consider themselves chosen by Him, no?
It means more work. The Midrash tells the story that the Torah was offered to every other nation before us, and was turned down. The gig comes with the history. We're either very dedicated or we're completely nuts.
| 22 |
TrueLiberal Tue, Aug 21, 2012 7:30:16pm |
Sliv-the_Eli and Curious Lurker,
You both have incorrect notions regarding why a religion persecutes another. Judaism is demonized by Christianity (the fable of Judas, the fable of Pontius Pilate washing his hands and the crowd preferring Lazarus, the fable of Pharasaic Judaism being illiberal and unloving) and Islam (be not friends to the Jew or the Christian, oh Believer come and kill him, the final battle will be with the Jews, the fable of the Jewish tribe breaking the peace treaty with Mohammed).
Christianity (most denominations) and Islam believe the Jews cannot enter heaven. Judaism believes that anyone who keeps the seven Noachide laws enters heaven and that Christianity and Islam worship the same God as the Jews.
Why the asymmetry? It is because Christianity needed to explain why it was needed when Judaism offered a path to heaven by keeping seven basic moral laws. Islam needed to explain the same thing. The ONLY thing Christianity and Islam were able to come up with to explain why they were necessary was to assert that the Jews had it totally wrong. The more they could demonize the Jew, the more they could make it a presumption that Judaism was wrong, rather than to have a fair debate.
Christianity requires faith over acts, contrary to Judaism.
Islam requires placing Mohammed first among all prophets, regardless of whether he added any new moral understanding or code of conduct that was previously not taught.
This is how Christianity and Islam tried to solve the justification of existence problem.
Islam treated Jews abysmally throughout its history. The claim that they treated Jews well until Zionism is rote propaganda. Back in the 13th Century, the Jewish philosopher and doctor Maimonedes was forced to flee from Spain to Morocco, from Morocco to North Central Africa, from there to Egypt, all by Muslims, including his flight from Spain. He found sanctuary in Egypt mainly because his medical services were needed by the royalty.
Dhimmi under Islamic rule were forced to wear unfancy clothing, barred from riding a horse, forced to step off the sidewalk for any Muslim, never to repair or build another house of worship (planned gradual destruction), not to have an audible worship, often to wear a special badge and to pay a special tax (jizya) or tribute once per year, often stoned and spat on, especially by Muslim children, not accepted as witnesses against a Muslim, every Muslim at liberty to witness falsely against him (one negative customer review could destroy one's life!), and the Muslims took advantage of these privileges the same as any mob would avail of a riot. This treatment is half the reason that almost all the Christians of Egypt, North Sudan, Syria and Iraq converted to Islam over the centuries. Many Jews did, as well, but most held firmer. So Christians today average under 5% (10-15% in Eqypt), whereas once they were over 90%.
Morocco is often alluded to as having treated the Jews unusually well. However, even there, in Morocco, the litany of outrageous oppression of Jews is long:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
...and this was the "friendly" country.
Ignorance is evil because it enables evil.
| 23 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:02:42pm |
re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist
The reality is much more complex.
Jews were scapegoated and even persecuted but they were also highly placed in many of the various caliphates. There were Jewish Prime Ministers (as in executive officers), treasurers, and so on, etc. See here It is a complex and complicated story.
The fact is we are looking a the politics of the governing body with 20th century eyes.
There are no examples of what we might consider religious tolerance but all in all, the proof is in the pudding.
While history is replete with examples of intolerance the fact remains as a society, culture and even as a religion, Jews did thrive under some parts of the caliphate- probably more so than they did overall under Christian rule- until much later.
None of this discussion can be reduced to a few words or lines.
| 24 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:13:27pm |
re: #9 researchok
You source first that the riots in Ottoman lands were Islamic on Jewish riots. The pogroms in Germany and Europe were pertty much for certain started by Christians - how can you tell what the composition of say the Damascus rioters were? How many were Christians and Muslims? Where is your non-wikipedia source?
| 25 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:13:35pm |
I would add one more thing- the bigger the religion, the greater conflicts there are within the religion- and religious conflicts especially have a tendency to play out with a kind of murderous piety.
Victims are usually chosen for reasons of expediency
| 26 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:18:10pm |
re: #24 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit.
You stated
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
There are examples of persecution of Jews by Muslims that go way back, long before the establishment of Israel.
Funny thing about racism- seems you have to be predisposed to the idea- know what I mean? sure you do.
Here's athought, 'scholar'- maybe the reason the Muslims were so predisposed to bigotry was because they were taught by their dysfunctional leaders to embrace that bigotry..
And I know you understand that, 'scholar'.
| 27 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:18:12pm |
re: #13 sliv_the_eli
Sources? I thought not.
Where are your sources, bud? What was the composition of the rioters in Syria? % of Christians? Muslims? I am pretty sure 100% of the rioters against Jews in Europe were Christians. Syria being in Islamic lands was tolerant of many faiths, and Christians were there living side by side with Muslims and Jews.
So you tell me how do you know who was in the riot? All you know is it happened under Ottoman rule.
| 28 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:24:01pm |
re: #27 Destro
Just more pivot and attack bullshit.
| 29 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:27:26pm |
re: #17 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm as enthusiastic about the more golden moments of the Jewish communities of the Muslim world as anyone, but...bullshit.
This is like saying that that the North was a paradise for black Americans. Did the worst shit happen up there? No. See? It was great.
The State of Israel did not cause the invention of anti-Semitism in the Muslim world.
and I call you on your analogy bull shit. Jews in Islamic lands were not slightly better off than say comparing blacks in slavery in the south and blacks free but treated like dirt in the north.
Jews were called over to live into the Islamic world, given political power, allowed free expression of their religion as best as there could be back then and were allowed to go to schools of higher learning.
What standard are you comparing the Islamic world of old? The modern USA? No nation on earth came close to America's tolerance until after WW2!
So here is a view of history you may not be comfortable with but the estblishment of Israel turned a civilization that had been tolerant towards Jews into enemies. Something that was not the case before.
| 30 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:28:13pm |
re: #28 researchok
Just more pivot and attack bullshit.
Yes, asking for your sources is now an attack. No wonder America lags in education.
| 31 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:29:39pm |
re: #23 researchok
The reality is much more complex.
Jews were scapegoated and even persecuted but they were also highly placed in many of the various caliphates. There were Jewish Prime Ministers (as in executive officers), treasurers, and so on, etc. See here It is a complex and complicated story.
The fact is we are looking a the politics of the governing body with 20th century eyes.
There are no examples of what we might consider religious tolerance but all in all, the proof is in the pudding.
While history is replete with examples of intolerance the fact remains as a society, culture and even as a religion, Jews did thrive under some parts of the caliphate- probably more so than they did overall under Christian rule- until much later.
None of this discussion can be reduced to a few words or lines.
Funny, that's what I said. And your problem with what I said was????
| 32 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:29:57pm |
re: #27 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit
Next you'll us the Christians massacred themselves.
You lecturing anyone on scholarship- now that's funny.
| 33 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:32:24pm |
re: #31 Destro
Funny, that's what I said. And your problem with what I said was????
More whitewash Pivot and attack bullshit
You said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Don't you have any other tricks besides pivot and attack?
Why don't you send in one of your smarter friends.
| 34 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:35:29pm |
re: #26 researchok
More pivot and attack bullshit.
You stated
There are examples of persecution of Jews by Muslims that go way back, long before the establishment of Israel.
Compared to what the Jews went through at the hands of Christians? Not even close. Analogy is comparing someone who slaps his wife vs someone who beats her with a baseball bat.
What kind of scale of oppression do you want to put it on? 10 being genocide, Europe was a 10 for the Jews. On the same scale life for a Jew in the Islamic world was what? I say a level 2 maybe 3 at the end of the Ottoman empire.
Using the Ottoman empire's end as the end of Islamic civilization (after that the Europeans ruled the middle east).
| 35 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:39:01pm |
re: #33 researchok
More whitewash Pivot and attack bullshit
You said
Don't you have any other tricks besides pivot and attack?
Why don't you send in one of your smarter friends.
Anti-semetisim is a termed coined by Europeans to describe a European problem found in Europe. The fact that Jews were leading armies, running govts and curing Muslim leaders means they were laying down with each other as were Christians in Muslims lands (who also led Muslim armies, etc - people forget Christian knights in feudal service of the Ottoman Sultan fought and died against Tamerlane's armies).
| 36 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:40:14pm |
re: #34 Destro
More bullshit!!
]
Why are you changing the subject?
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
That is what you said.
I can provide many more examples of Muslim persecution of Jews that predated Israel- and simply monkeying my remarks don't get you a free pass, 'scholar'.
And I use the 'scholar' word loosely, inasmuch as you don't even know what the world means or how scholarship works.
Which is a really nioce way of my saying I know exactly who you are.
| 37 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:45:32pm |
re: #35 Destro
Anti-semetisim is a termed coined by Europeans to describe a European problem found in Europe. The fact that Jews were leading armies, running govts and curing Muslim leaders means they were laying down with each other as were Christians in Muslims lands (who also led Muslim armies, etc - people forget Christian knights in feudal service of the Ottoman Sultan fought and died against Tamerlane's armies).
More pivot and attack bullshit. We are not talking about what the Jews went through at the hands of others.
We are discussing your bullshit remarks
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Care to address those remarks, 'scholar'?
When you finally concede your remarks were deliberately bogus, we can continue the conversation with the persecution of Muslims by other Muslims- a far greater example of religious persecution, wouldn't you say?
| 38 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:47:24pm |
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Just a thought- do you always blame the victim? Is that a cultural thing for you?
| 39 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:48:14pm |
re: #22 TrueLiberal
Again, Pamela Gellerish level of bullshit against Islamic civilization.
Since you like Wikipedia:
Accustomed to survival in adverse circumstances after many centuries of discrimination and persecution within the Roman Empire, both pre-Christian and Christian, Jews saw the Islamic conquests as just another change of rulers, this time for the better.
María Rosa Menocal, argues that the Jewish dhimmis living under the Caliphate, while allowed fewer rights than Muslims, were still better off than in the Christian parts of Europe. Jews from other parts of Europe made their way to al-Andalus, where in parallel to Christian sects regarded as heretical by Catholic Europe, they were not just tolerated, but where opportunities to practise faith and trade were open without restriction save for the prohibitions on proselytisation.[41]
Bernard Lewis states:Generally, the Jewish people were allowed to practice their religion and live according to the laws and scriptures of their community. Furthermore, the restrictions to which they were subject were social and symbolic rather than tangible and practical in character. That is to say, these regulations served to define the relationship between the two communities, and not to oppress the Jewish population.[42]
Professor of Jewish medieval history at Hebrew University, Haim Hillel Ben-Sasson, notes:
The legal and security situation of the Jews in the Muslim world was generally better than in Christendom, because in the former, Jews were not the sole "infidels", because in comparison to the Christians, Jews were less dangerous and more loyal to the Muslim regime, and because the rapidity and the territorial scope of the Muslim conquests imposed upon them a reduction in persecution and a granting of better possibility for the survival of members of other faiths in their lands.[43]
According to the French historian Claude Cahen, Islam has "shown more toleration than Europe towards the Jews who remained in Muslim lands." [44]
Comparing the treatment of Jews in the medieval Islamic world and medieval Christian Europe, Mark R. Cohen notes that, in contrast to Jews in Christian Europe, the "Jews in Islam were well integrated into the economic life of the larger society",[45] and that, they were allowed to practice their religion more freely than they could do in Christian Europe.[45]
According to the scholar Mordechai Zaken, tribal chieftains (also known as aghas) in tribal Muslim societies such as the Kurdish society in Kurdistan would tax their Jewish subjects. The Jews were in fact civilians protected by their chieftains in and around their communities; in return they paid part of their harvest as dues, and contributed their skills and services to their patron chieftain.[46][Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 40 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:50:41pm |
re: #39 Destro
More bullshit, more pivot and attack
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
That is what you said
And nothing you posted denotes anywhere there was no persecution of Jews. There certainly was.
In fact, you just made SFZ's point, 'scholar'.
Yet another failed pivot and attack.
| 41 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:54:18pm |
And about those 1860 Damascus riots, you never answered- did the Christians kill themselves?
| 42 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 8:56:37pm |
re: #36 researchok
More bullshit!!
]
Why are you changing the subject?
That is what you said.
I can provide many more examples of Muslim persecution of Jews that predated Israel- and simply monkeying my remarks don't get you a free pass, 'scholar'.
And I use the 'scholar' word loosely, inasmuch as you don't even know what the world means or how scholarship works.
Which is a really nioce way of my saying I know exactly who you are.
The status of the dhimmi "was for long accepted with resignation by the Christians and with gratitude by the Jews" Bernard Lewis
| 43 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:05:10pm |
re: #41 researchok
And about those 1860 Damascus riots, you never answered- did the Christians kill themselves?
That was not the pogrom on the Jews in Damascus you were referring to. Two separate incidents. Are you scrambling to find stuff online? Shame. I read them in books.
One in 1840, commonly known as the Damascus affair, was an accusation of ritual murder brought against the Jews in connection with the death of Father Thomas - a Christian. Why would Muslims riot over a Jew killing a Christian? Hence my contention that the riot was by Christians in Syria against Jews. According to Daniel Pipes, "...the real impact of the Damascus affair ... lay in Europe, where it led to a formidable backlash against Jews, the greatest in years. Jews found themselves completely unprepared for the tribulations they suffered but learned from this tragedy to organize and lobby, and from that came the first stirrings of modern Jewish solidarity, the basis of the formidable institutions that followed."
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
The second accusation brought against the Jews, in 1860, was that of having taken part in the massacre of the Christians by the Druze and the Muslims. Five hundred Muslims, who had been involved in the affair, were hanged by the grand vizier Fuad Pasha. Two hundred Jews were awaiting the same fate, in spite of their innocence, and the whole Jewish community had been fined 4,000,000 piastres. The condemned Jews were saved only by the official intervention of Fuad Pasha himself; that of the Prussian consul, Dr. Johann G. Wetzstein; of Sir Moses Montefiore of London, and of the bankers Abraham Salomon Camondo of Constantinople and Shemaya Angel of Damascus. From that time to the end of the nineteenth century, several further blood accusations were brought against the Jews; these, however, never provoked any great excitement.
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 44 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:05:36pm |
re: #42 Destro
What does that have to do with Muslim persecution of Jews?
Are you saying they were happy under Muslim domination?
Did occur to you 'Scholar' maybe they were making the best of a bad situation?
Are you saying Bernard Lewis was endorsing the idea of Jews being happy as second class citizens?
Are you saying the Christians killed themselves in 1860 (sorry, pivot didn't work so well)?
Are you saying Muslims were benevolent? If so, why not discuss the persecution of Muslims by other Muslims?
You also said,
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Do you always blame the victim?
From a psychological standpoint, that is very interesting.
Very.
It also explains quite a bit about you.
| 45 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:07:12pm |
re: #43 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit.
That also happened under the Ottoman Rule you referred to.
What was the difference between the two, 'Scholar'?
| 46 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:09:31pm |
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Where is the reference to Daniel Pipes opinion, 'scholar?
And why haven't you asked me for more references to Muslim persecution of Jews before the establishment of the state of Israel?
| 47 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:10:34pm |
re: #20 Bob Levin
Okay, c'mon. What's your first language? The mask is practically falling off of your face.
You've twice used the canard that Israel is hijacking US foreign policy, at least twice. And you used the blood libel when responding to researchok just a few days ago.
What part of my English do you have a problem with? It's how we tawk in New Yawk. And let me know when your fantasies come true and I cite any Protocols you can point to.
| 48 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:11:38pm |
| 49 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:11:39pm |
re: #23 researchok
While history is replete with examples of intolerance the fact remains as a society, culture and even as a religion, Jews did thrive under some parts of the caliphate- probably more so than they did overall under Christian rule- until much later.
Absolutely true. I love that era, and I believe it does demonstrate possibilities for a coexistence and cooperation in the modern world as well.
But claiming that anti-Semitism didn't exist in the Middle East until the mid-twentieth century is just plain wrong, and also part of an explicit agenda.
| 50 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:12:18pm |
re: #45 researchok
More pivot and attack bullshit.
That also happened under the Ottoman Rule you referred to.
What was the difference between the two, 'Scholar'?
Yea, so Muslims get the blame for Ottoman Christians killing Jews? And I found it funny you are so stupid you brought up a pogrom against Christians that Muslims carried out where Jews were also balmed for helping Muslims kill said Christians. That was hilarious, professor.
| 51 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:13:32pm |
re: #27 Destro
Where are your sources, bud? What was the composition of the rioters in Syria? % of Christians? Muslims? I am pretty sure 100% of the rioters against Jews in Europe were Christians. Syria being in Islamic lands was tolerant of many faiths, and Christians were there living side by side with Muslims and Jews.
So you tell me how do you know who was in the riot? All you know is it happened under Ottoman rule.
Who knows? The mob could have been entirely composed of Tibetan Buddhists. Do we KNOW that Tibetan Buddhists weren't running around Damascus in a bloodthirsty mob? Got a source for that?
Come on. You're just trolling now. Take Damascus out if you really want to pin it on the Christians. It doesn't make what you said less incorrect.
| 52 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:15:04pm |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Yesw, it is part of a specific agenda- an anti Semitic agenda that has been deliberately cultivated by very dysfunctional leaders.
| 53 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:17:28pm |
| 54 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:19:55pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
Imagine a school that gave each student a glass of alcohol every day. Each day, beginning at tender nursery school age, the child was encouraged to drink the beverage that would come to poison his spirit, soul and mind.
Suppose that beverage was from the well aged bottle of anti Semitism.
Suppose also that once that child downed that alcoholic beverage, the teacher refilled that glass with more alcohol. This time, the flavor is religious bigotry directed at non Jews.
Imagine once that glass of alcohol was consumed by young dutiful children, the glass was immediately refilled with the beverage from the bottle of anti western and anti democratic values.
After decades those children, now adults, go home every day, turn on the television and read the newspapers and they are fed more alcohol. They get yet more when their kids come home from school, and share the same familiar poisoned ‘fire water.’ They poison they are fed gets the God’s seal of approval when fed to them from the pulpit- or so they desperately need to believe.
Of course, to keep a drunk or a junkie hooked, it takes an ever increasing amount of poison to induce the same stupor that blinds the drunk or the junkie to his own surroundings and dysfunction. The supply of poison never ends.
After years of such ‘education,’ it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a lot of alcoholics in the Arab world deliberately poisoned by the hate and ideologies of dysfunctional and corrupt leaders. Like alcoholics and substance abusers, they will tell you they ‘have it under control‘ and that they ‘can quit anytime they want... it’s only the injustices of others that causes us to behave the way we do. We seek justice.” They are blind to their own dysfunction, they are blind to their own deceit and remain so by embracing hate.
Just ask Destro.
| 55 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:22:06pm |
re: #49 SanFranciscoZionist
Absolutely true. I love that era, and I believe it does demonstrate possibilities for a coexistence and cooperation in the modern world as well.
But claiming that anti-Semitism didn't exist in the Middle East until the mid-twentieth century is just plain wrong, and also part of an explicit agenda.
Arabs enter the history of Anti-Semitism with the establishment of Israel.
See:
| 56 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:22:42pm |
re: #53 researchok
More bullshit, 'scholar'
Ottoman Christians in Damascus killed Jews?
Muslims avenged Father Thomas? Seriously?
| 57 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:22:48pm |
re: #29 Destro
So here is a view of history you may not be comfortable with but the estblishment of Israel turned a civilization that had been tolerant towards Jews into enemies. Something that was not the case before.
Your ideologically driven, historically inaccurate perception is duly noted.
| 58 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:25:22pm |
re: #55 Destro
Even you have to laugh at that bullshit- nobody is stupid enough to believe that was the start of Muslim antisemitism.
Of course, you never did respond to the other examples I gave you
Do you need more?
You know, for your next pivot and attack bullshit
| 59 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:27:24pm |
re: #55 Destro
Arabs enter the history of Anti-Semitism with the establishment of Israel.
See:
Seriously? That's the link you're going to use to prove your bullshit argument?
God help us.
| 60 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:27:34pm |
re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist
Looks Bob Levin was right, all along.
He's a clinician, it is easier for him to formulate a more rounded opinion.
I'm a behaviorist.
While I can't tell you what goes on in his head exactly, I can tell you he is one...rather interesting fellow.
| 61 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:28:49pm |
re: #51 SanFranciscoZionist
Who knows? The mob could have been entirely composed of Tibetan Buddhists. Do we KNOW that Tibetan Buddhists weren't running around Damascus in a bloodthirsty mob? Got a source for that?
Come on. You're just trolling now. Take Damascus out if you really want to pin it on the Christians. It doesn't make what you said less incorrect.
The level of sadness I feel for the lack of education amore: #46 researchok
Where is the reference to Daniel Pipes opinion, 'scholar?
And why haven't you asked me for more references to Muslim persecution of Jews before the establishment of the state of Israel?
Did you not see the link? [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
Pipe's comment is there.
But you want the original source? [Link: www.danielpipes.org...]
Frankel, professor of history at the Hebrew University of Jerusalem, has rescued a small but key event of modern history from ill-deserved obscurity. In a very impressive and well-written account, he tells what happened in Damascus after an Italian monk and his servant disappeared in February 1840. The newly-arrived but powerful French consul, Ratti-Menton, developed an "entirely manufactured" thesis of Jewish ritual murder that the local government in large part accepted, leading to the imprisonment, torture, and death of many Damascene Jews, followed by similar tribulations throughout the eastern Mediterranean.
But the real impact of the Damascus Affair, Frankel shows, lay in Europe, where it led to a formidable backlash against Jews, the greatest in years. Jews found themselves completely unprepared for the tribulations they suffered but learned from this tragedy to organize and lobby, and from it came the first stirrings of modern Jewish solidarity, the basis of the formidable institutions that followed. Frankel provides a particularly impressive review of the reactions to the far-away and long-ago events of his study, showing just how the to-and-froing between the Middle East and Europe on the matter of Jews became a major issue for all concerned. In many ways, he shows, the grounds for the West's involvement today in the Middle East were set in the terrible events of 1840.
| 62 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:28:55pm |
re: #59 SanFranciscoZionist
He needs to believe it.
Rid the source of shame and there is no shame.
Read between the lines.
| 63 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:30:19pm |
re: #58 researchok
Even you have to laugh at that bullshit- nobody is stupid enough to believe that was the start of Muslim antisemitism.
Of course, you never did respond to the other examples I gave you
Do you need more?
You know, for your next pivot and attack bullshit
Pamella Geller agrees with you.
| 64 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:31:05pm |
re: #61 Destro
What is with all the pivot and attack? Why not address what you have said all along, about blaming the victim?
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
| 65 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:32:46pm |
re: #63 Destro
Pamella Geller agrees with you.
LOLOL
Is that the best pivot and attack you can come up with? Bringing Geller into it?
And I'm on record as being no fan of Geller's.
Try again, 'scholar'?
| 66 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:32:50pm |
re: #64 researchok
Yes, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in peace moreso than in Christian Europe to an easy degree.
| 67 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:35:03pm |
re: #66 Destro
Yes, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in peace moreso than in Christian Europe to an easy degree.
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
So you are reiterating there was no Muslim antisemitism?
Or are you admitting there was Muslim antisemitism?
| 68 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:36:32pm |
re: #66 Destro
Yes, Muslims and Jews lived side by side in peace moreso than in Christian Europe to an easy degree.
Given Christian Europe, that's largely correct.
Once again, however, it does not demonstrate your fantasy that anti-Semitism was born wholesale of the birth of Israel.
You know what you also sound like? The people who insist that they got along fine with the good, contented colored people, until those Civil Rights workers stirred everything up.
| 69 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:36:49pm |
re: #65 researchok
LOLOL
Is that the best pivot and attack you can come up with? Bringing Geller into it?
And I'm on record as being no fan of Geller's.
Try again, 'scholar'?
You are blanket stating Islamic culture was anti-Semitic based on isolated incidents over centuries when all the crimes that the Jews went through in the Islamic world pales in comparison to what the Europeans did. It is ridiculous to compare the two in that way with that term.
| 70 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:37:22pm |
Destro, I will credit you with something;
You have set a new record for bullshit at one sitting on LGF tonight.
| 71 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:38:22pm |
re: #69 Destro
Isolated incidents?
Are you sure that is the case, scholar?
Can I take that to mean you want more examples?
| 72 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:40:25pm |
re: #69 Destro
And where did I make a 'blanket' remark?
I will give an example of a 'blanket' remark:
...anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
| 73 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:40:29pm |
re: #68 SanFranciscoZionist
Given Christian Europe, that's largely correct.
Once again, however, it does not demonstrate your fantasy that anti-Semitism was born wholesale of the birth of Israel.
You know what you also sound like? The people who insist that they got along fine with the good, contented colored people, until those Civil Rights workers stirred everything up.
No, I sound that to a partisan like you. You don't like your world view challenged.
I did not say "anti-Semitism was born wholesale of the birth of Israel" you twit. I wrote "The Muslims were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state." and by anti-semitism I am using the European origin word to describe conditions as they existed for Jews in Europe.
| 74 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:41:52pm |
re: #69 Destro
You are blanket stating Islamic culture was anti-Semitic based on isolated incidents over centuries when all the crimes that the Jews went through in the Islamic world pales in comparison to what the Europeans did. It is ridiculous to compare the two in that way with that term.
To clarify, you appear to be 'blanket stating' that the Jews under Islam lived the good life, with no anti-Semitism, and if there was some, well, it was premodern times, gosh! and only when the Jews had the fucking gall to establish a state did trouble start.
Where does the Hebron massacre fall into this category? It's well prior to statehood, but if you're true to the form you've displayed, you'll blame it on anger toward European Zionists.
| 75 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:42:00pm |
re: #71 researchok
Isolated incidents?
Are you sure that is the case, scholar?
Can I take that to mean you want more examples?
anti-Semetism was European policy until the enlightenment. Jews in Muslim lands did not live with that fear in Islamic lands.
| 76 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:43:20pm |
re: #74 SanFranciscoZionist
To clarify, you appear to be 'blanket stating' that the Jews under Islam lived the good life, with no anti-Semitism, and if there was some, well, it was premodern times, gosh! and only when the Jews had the fucking gall to establish a state did trouble start.
Where does the Hebron massacre fall into this category? It's well prior to statehood, but if you're true to the form you've displayed, you'll blame it on anger toward European Zionists.
Around the time of the zionist movement. No such widespread incidents in Arabic or Muslim lands before then.
| 77 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:45:06pm |
re: #73 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit.
Why do you misrepresent and deliberately disparage SFZ?
You have a agenda- one that you have failed to defend all night long.
SFZ's remarks are accurate and do not represent anything but the truth.
Your remarks have been deliberately deceitful, you avoid dealing with having to back up your crap and deliberate misrepresentations and the constant moving of the goal lines.
In more ways than you can imagine, I know exactly who you are.
| 78 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:45:47pm |
| 79 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:46:58pm |
| 80 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:47:15pm |
re: #73 Destro
No, I sound that to a partisan like you. You don't like your world view challenged.
I did not say "anti-Semitism was born wholesale of the birth of Israel" you twit. I wrote "The Muslims were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state." and by anti-semitism I am using the European origin word to describe conditions as they existed for Jews in Europe.
Destro, for you to comment that someone else doesn't like having their world view challenged is almost, but not entirely, hilarious. What you sound like to me is every other kid full of bad history and an axe to grind about matters Israeli that I've ever run across on the Internet.
Your sophistry is cute, but not terribly convincing. If "by anti-semitism you are using the European origin word to describe conditions as they existed for Jews in Europe", suggesting that anti-Semitism showed up in the Muslim world at the founding of the Israeli state would rather strongly suggest that you think that the conditions that existed for the Jews in Europe became common in the Middle East at that time.
I'm not sure that's what you're trying to get across here. What ARE you trying to get across? If it's that over the broad sweep of history, the Muslim world was, on the balance, better than the Christian world for the Jews, I would agree. But it's a bit more than that...
| 81 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:48:06pm |
re: #75 Destro
anti-Semetism was European policy until the enlightenment. Jews in Muslim lands did not live with that fear in Islamic lands.
Wheeee!
| 82 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:48:43pm |
re: #78 researchok
More pivot and attack bullshit.
We are not talking about European antisemitism.
antisemitism IS EUROPEAN and European only. It is born of European civilization. It is a term coined by Europeans to describe how Europeans treated Jews.
Antisemetism has distinct forms and mthologies and folklore not found in the Muslim world until sadly the modern age. It was a European import into the Muslim world and it found a home sadly because of the conflict of Arab and Jew over Israel.
| 83 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:48:58pm |
re: #76 Destro
Around the time of the zionist movement. No such widespread incidents in Arabic or Muslim lands before then.
Remember why Maimonides ended up in Egypt? Wasn't a Zionist in SIGHT.
| 84 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:49:37pm |
re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist
antisemitism IS EUROPEAN and European only. It is born of European civilization. It is a term coined by Europeans to describe how Europeans treated Jews.
Antisemetism has distinct forms and mthologies and folklore not found in the Muslim world until sadly the modern age. It was a European import into the Muslim world and it found a home sadly because of the conflict of Arab and Jew over Israel.
| 85 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:50:34pm |
re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist
He believes it.
He really does. This is what he has been taught.
SFZ, this one thing you cannot easily fix
| 86 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:52:13pm |
re: #82 Destro
Right.
There are religious text full of examples of love for Jews.
Right.
The Caliphs were all supportive of Jews.
Right.
There are no examples of Muslims in Spain and throughout southern Europe treating Jews unfairly.
Right
| 87 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:54:28pm |
re: #82 Destro
antisemitism IS EUROPEAN and European only. It is born of European civilization. It is a term coined by Europeans to describe how Europeans treated Jews.
Antisemetism has distinct forms and mthologies and folklore not found in the Muslim world until sadly the modern age. It was a European import into the Muslim world and it found a home sadly because of the conflict of Arab and Jew over Israel.
Ignoring your usual inability to keep a single argument going, and tendency to morph randomly as pleases your fancy:
All right. What you meant was the specifically EUROPEAN phenomenon of anti-Semitism, not any generic Jew-harassment that might have been found elsewhere.
So, who imported it? Why? Why was its impact so great? How was it disseminated? When did it begin to be introduced by these presumably European people?
| 88 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:55:24pm |
re: #85 researchok
He believes it.
He really does. This is what he has been taught.
SFZ, this one thing you cannot easily fix
Oh, I don't plan to fix him. I'm just poking a little. Don't worry, I'll probably get bored soon enough. It's getting late.
| 89 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:56:19pm |
re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist
He doesn't morph- it is deliberate.
| 90 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:56:53pm |
| 91 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:57:52pm |
re: #88 SanFranciscoZionist
Agreed.
And he needs to have the last word.
In his mind that will correct all his BS and allow him to become a victim of our persecution.- and prove us wrong and himself right
Seriously
| 92 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 9:58:37pm |
re: #87 SanFranciscoZionist
Ignoring your usual inability to keep a single argument going, and to morph randomly as pleases your fancy:
All right. What you meant was the specifically EUROPEAN phenomenon of anti-Semitism, not any generic Jew-harassment that might have been found elsewhere.
So, who imported it? Why? Why was its impact so great? How was it disseminated? When did it begin to be introduced by these presumably European people?
I did not morph a thing. That was my first statement at the start. Daniel Pipes points to the Damascus incident where the French consul imported the blood libel into Syria. Then we have European colonial rule of the middle east and imported culture then we have Nazi Germany influencing the Arabs.
| 93 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:00:57pm |
re: #91 researchok
Agreed.
And he needs to have the last word.
In his mind that will correct all his BS and allow him to become a victim of our persecution.- and prove us wrong and himself right
Seriously
The BS is claiming the Muslim world has been trying to kill off Jews the way Europeans have since the dawn of Islam when the conflict is modern in origin.
| 94 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:01:53pm |
re: #92 Destro
More pivot and attack.
I guess it has been hard for you to keep up.
It doesn't matter who started the rumor in Damascus.
What matters is who did the killing.
And what matters is your bullshit.
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
| 95 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:05:21pm |
re: #93 Destro
The BS is claiming the Muslim world has been trying to kill off Jews the way Europeans have since the dawn of Islam when the conflict is modern in origin.
More bullshit. more pivot and attack.
No one made that claim.
And since you brought it up, we can talk about the dawn of Islam' and Jews.
Out of respect for many Muslims I know (who are very different than you- people you would not approve of because they are very honest and decent) I'll let you decide if that is where you want to go.
| 96 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:08:56pm |
re: #94 researchok
More pivot and attack.
I guess it has been hard for you to keep up.
It doesn't matter who started the rumor in Damascus.
What matters is who did the killing.
And what matters is your bullshit.
Oh yes it does because you in your ignorance blamed the Muslims when it was a French instigator stirring up the local Christians. The Christians got the local police to do the dirty work for them. Which then caused European Jews - not Jews in the wider Muslim world - to be persecuted again at a level not seen since the arrival of the enlightenment.
That's the part you are too ignorant to get - the Damascus incident did nothing to endanger Jews in the wider Islamic world - it was in Europe that it became a universal danger to Jews.
See the difference?
| 97 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:10:48pm |
re: #92 Destro
I did not morph a thing. That was my first statement at the start. Daniel Pipes points to the Damascus incident where the French consul imported the blood libel into Syria. Then we have European colonial rule of the middle east and imported culture then we have Nazi Germany influencing the Arabs.
Sure. You have influences in the 19th and 20th centuries, although I am frankly startled to see you referencing any Nazi influence on the Arabs. Isn't that what Pam Geller says?
The problem is that violence and discrimination against Jews in the region predates that by, oh, quite a bit.
BTW, Bernard Lewis does not quite seem to share your belief that because anti-Semitism is a European word, it can only describe European things.
Particularly instructive in this respect is an ancient Anti-Semitic poem of Abu Ishaq, written in Granada in 1066. This poem, which is said to be instrumental in provoking the anti-Jewish outbreak of that year, contains these specific lines: "Do not consider it a breach of faith to kill them, the breach of faith would be to let them carry on. They have violated our covenant with them, so how can you be held guilty against the violator? - How can they have any pact when we are obscure and they are prominent? - Now we are humble, beside them, as if we were wrong and they were right!"
That was, of course, the year of the Granada massacre. Yosef ha-Nagid set that one off, of course, by being appointed to too high a public office. You can see Ibn Naghrela two ways, I suppose--a poster child for the tolerance of Muslim Spain, and also a poster child for what happened when a Jew got too uppity and people got upset.
| 98 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:12:03pm |
re: #93 Destro
The BS is claiming the Muslim world has been trying to kill off Jews the way Europeans have since the dawn of Islam when the conflict is modern in origin.
I think you miss the point. For the majority of their history neither Christians nor Muslims have been 'trying to kill off the Jews', they've just been discriminating against them, and massacring them on occasion.
| 99 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:12:04pm |
re: #96 Destro
More bullshit!
The Damascus populatin had a choice.
And this wasn't their firsty experience with antisemitism.
In addition, it is interesting to see you fixated on the Damascus riots and Jews and not so much on the Damascus riots that killed Christians.
Why do you suppose that is?
And why do you only focus on that one example and not on the others, 'scholar'?
| 100 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:14:34pm |
re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist
It doesn't matter that you have clarified the Bernard Lewis reference.
He'll pull it out when you aren't around.
Or even if you are.
| 101 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:14:40pm |
Why DID Maimonides leave Spain? The weather is nicer than in Egypt.
What happened in Fez in 1033? Then what happened in Fez in 1465?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Whatever DID happen to Sol Hachuel?
| 103 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:16:12pm |
re: #96 Destro
Oh yes it does because you in your ignorance blamed the Muslims when it was a French instigator stirring up the local Christians. The Christians got the local police to do the dirty work for them. Which then caused European Jews - not Jews in the wider Muslim world - to be persecuted again at a level not seen since the arrival of the enlightenment.
That's the part you are too ignorant to get - the Damascus incident did nothing to endanger Jews in the wider Islamic world - it was in Europe that it became a universal danger to Jews.
See the difference?
So we can blame the Muslims for supporting Hitler evebn they didn't kill the Jews?
| 104 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:16:58pm |
re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist
Why DID Maimonides leave Spain? The weather is nicer than in Egypt.
What happened in Fez in 1033? Then what happened in Fez in 1465?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Whatever DID happen to Sol Hachuel?
LOLOL@ weather
| 105 |
researchok Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:19:25pm |
re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist
I hear that.
We'll let him have what he so desperately needs- the last word.
For a while, anyhow.
Tomorrow brings a new day- and whole new series of pivot and attack.
| 106 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:19:48pm |
re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist
Lady, do they still teach English in America? Did I not claim Islam up until the modern era was free from the European illness???
Did I make a claim modern Islam and Arab culture are not anti-Semitic? I did not did I?
All I said is that Zionism caused Arabs to adopt the anti-semitic ways of Europeans that the Zionists were trying to escape from. Ironic. Unintended Consequences. That's all.
| 107 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:23:10pm |
re: #101 SanFranciscoZionist
Why DID Maimonides leave Spain? The weather is nicer than in Egypt.
What happened in Fez in 1033? Then what happened in Fez in 1465?
Inquiring minds want to know.
Whatever DID happen to Sol Hachuel?
Was Egypt Christian? Spain was invaded by a new wave of Berbers who are Muslims but not Arabs and this group of invaders were nuts even the local Muslims did not like them. Even then the Spanish Jews still had it better off than in Christian Spain.
| 108 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:28:37pm |
re: #22 TrueLiberal
Sliv-the_Eli and Curious Lurker,
[...]
Ignorance is evil because it enables evil.
If ignorance is evil, then you're in serious trouble.
Since you don't even know how to use the quote utility properly, and since you never bothered to respond in another thread where I addressed you, I'm not going to waste a lot of time refuting your claims one by one, however I do ahve a few things to say.
First of all, anything Sliv might say would carry far more weight than whatever you might say as he has a long track record here and—even if I disagree with him on some things—has proven to be very knowledgeable about many things related to Judaism & Islam. You, OTOH, have not.
Second, since you're the one making the assertions about Islam's teachings, I'll leave the burden on YOU to prove to prove them. Oh, and citing Wikipedia isn't going to cut it—if you're going to try to tell me what my religion teaches, then you'll need to be prepared to demonstrate a much deeper understanding of Islam than is evidenced by the claims you've made so far. If I had the chutzpah to walk up to a Jew and tell him or her that s/he was ignorant and I understood Judaism better, I'd make damned sure I could back that up.
Islam (be not friends to the Jew or the Christian, oh Believer come and kill him, the final battle will be with the Jews, the fable of the Jewish tribe breaking the peace treaty with Mohammed).
You'll need to begin by citing where these 4 things come from. Qur'an? Hadith? Do you know? I do, but I'm not going to give you the answers. If from hadith, which collections and how "strong" is each one? You should also be able to provide at least basic context & exegesis for any Qur'anic verses—nothing too complicated, just enough to demonstrate that you have a clue you're talking about. Here, I'll even give you a partial freebie: the passage about who a Muslim should or shouldn't take as a "friend" is from the Qur'an. Please cite the chapter & verse, what the context of the verse was, which Arabic word means "friend", and whether or not it's an accurate interpretation of the word (based on said context).
Why the asymmetry? It is because Christianity needed to explain why it was needed when Judaism offered a path to heaven by keeping seven basic moral laws. Islam needed to explain the same thing. The ONLY thing Christianity and Islam were able to come up with to explain why they were necessary was to assert that the Jews had it totally wrong. The more they could demonize the Jew, the more they could make it a presumption that Judaism was wrong, rather than to have a fair debate.
Christianity requires faith over acts, contrary to Judaism.
Islam requires placing Mohammed first among all prophets, regardless of whether he added any new moral understanding or code of conduct that was previously not taught.
You'll need to back up the 3 bolded assertions above as well. I'll be waiting.
This is how Christianity and Islam tried to solve the justification of existence problem.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but here you also seem to be saying that out of the three religions only Judaism can truly justify its existence, Christianity & Islam being little more than lame, bullying copycat pretenders. Is that correct?
Let's stop there for now and see how you do, then we'll move on to the rest.
| 109 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:32:32pm |
re: #73 Destro
I did not say "anti-Semitism was born wholesale of the birth of Israel" you twit.
I don't really care what other stuff you're carrying on about, but SFZ is NOT a twit.
| 110 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:42:59pm |
Gawd, what a mess. I can't keep up with it all.
Heh, Sliv's going to get an eyeful in the morning.
I'm outta here.
| 111 |
Destro Tue, Aug 21, 2012 10:46:09pm |
re: #109 CuriousLurker
Tough. The misqouting needs to be called out.
| 112 |
Sophia77 Tue, Aug 21, 2012 11:26:25pm |
Part One:)
First, Destro is right in his assertion that European forms of antisemitism are a late addition to the Middle East, but they did come in decades before the foundation of Eretz Israel and I think have affected the conflict.
The "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," was published in Damascus in approximately 1920-21, and like people everywhere, Middle Easterners assumed it was the truth and some still do.
Second, the British influence after the destruction of the Ottoman Empire included the importation of antisemitism, most of it rooted in Christian tradition but also, in the long history of abuse suffered by Jews in England, including blood libels, mass murder and expulsion. This was problematic in their administration of the Mandate.
Finally, there was Nazi propaganda which unfortunately has become commonplace in the Middle East, including the Arab world, Iran, and Turkey, where Mein Kampf has become a best seller.
Antisemitism did predate the 20th century though. It's prevalent among Eastern Christians. Blood libels as noted above have caused attacks on Jews by Christians in the Middle East. When the Christians still ruled Jerusalem, Jews were not well treated, as indeed they had not been since Christianity became a powerful religion.
Within Islam, Jews are a protected people, along with Christians, but there is the fact of dhimmitude which was second class citizenship at best. This is both religious and political repression, but the severity of it has varied with time and place.
| 113 |
Sophia77 Tue, Aug 21, 2012 11:37:49pm |
Part Two:)
It's notable that tolerance of Jews has been great within Islam. For example after the expulsion of the Jews from Spain, the Sultan welcomed us into the Ottoman Empire. Rabbis, scholars, artists and musicians, courtiers and politicians and poets have been honored particularly in the Turkic world but also among the Arabs. There have been close relationships between Jews and Berbers and Jews and North African Arabs as well, and Baghdad had a large, culturally significant and prosperous Jewish community. Many famous musicians, poets and composers in the Arab world were Jewish, even up until modern times. Also, physicians, dye masters, silk traders - especially important in Central Asia - other Jewish traders were important all along the Silk Road. Obviously, Jews were not only tolerated, they were respected and successful within the Islamic world.
There is a large contingent of Jews in Turkey to this day. Up until the revolution in 1979 in Iran, there was a very large community of Jews in Persia. And of course we have lived in what eventually because the Arab world since at least the days of classical antiquity, including in al Andalus.
However during Mohammed's lifetime there were wars in Arabia with Jewish tribes, who were numerous at the time; most didn't want to follow Mohammed and people were killed and the surviving Jews were expelled from Arabia. So there's a history of violence going back to the very earliest days of Islam. Prior to that, there have been wars and skirmishes between Jewish and Arab tribes for centuries.
So, a lot of the issues between Jews and Arabs are not "antisemitic" in the European sense, some are religious, but some had their roots in clan or tribal/national warfare. This pattern continues to this day.
However I think in the religious sense, antisemitism is a problem in the Middle East and has been a real cause of the refusal to accept the state of Israel. It isn't the only issue, but given the significance of religion in the region, even including within Islam and Christianity, it's impossible to deny it's a factor.
I think problem for Jews as a religious and cultural minority has been twofold in Islam: #1, as dhimmi, Jews were "other," and #2, forced into a submissive position. This included having to take "unclean" jobs - ironically, the very important work of leather tanning, fabric dying and also, physician, are all "unclean" professions. And, as noted above, periodically there were pogroms and other attacks against the Jewish communities. This obviously predated the creation of Israel.
But, the creation of Israel as a sovereign nation was problematic because it went against the grain as well as because Arab nationalism was also blooming at the very same time. So here we had a formerly submissive people taking control over Arabs, both Muslim and Christian, and also this was seen as an act of colonialism at a time the world was trying to free itself from imperial control. So the long history of Jews in the Middle East was and was not acknowledged - part of the complexity of the situation - yes Jews are indigenous, but "other" and religiously inferior - and simultaneously seen as foreign and dangerous to tradition.
Anyway, the issue of antisemitism in the ME is complex. I don't think though that it can be pinned on the existence of Israel although that's clearly angered people. Nazism had a huge impact on the region but so did The Protocols, but religious and political conflict goes back millenia in the ME.
| 114 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Aug 21, 2012 11:44:12pm |
| 115 |
Bob Levin Wed, Aug 22, 2012 12:16:10am |
re: #112 Sophia77
You might want to create a new thread, since this particular candle is burnt out from both ends. Also, I think religion is less important in the modern era--given the rise of tyrannies, who just happened to be in the market for hiring ex-Gestapo officers to oversee their 'security' operations. Seemed that the tyrants needed that 'special' expertise in torturing people (their own citizens) while keeping them alive. Follow the Rat Lines. This dynamic is independent of the State of Israel.
| 116 |
TrueLiberal Wed, Aug 22, 2012 3:04:21am |
I already provided a link about persecution of the Jews in Morocco 500 to 1000 years ago.
In Yemen, the British, approximately 120 years ago, asked the Yeminites to stop throwing rocks at and spitting on the Jews and the Yeminites refused.
Here is some information about same in Iraq, again, one of the pre-eminent Jewish communities in the Arab world (all from Wikipedia), including this little known fact that the Iraqi Jewish community was basically destroyed and rebuilt later:
"After the death of the great khan and the murder of his Jewish favorite, the Muslims fell upon the Jews, and Baghdad witnessed a regular battle between them. Gaykhatu also had a Jewish minister of finance, Reshid al-Daulah. The khan Ghazan also became a Muslim, and made the Jews second class citizens. The Egyptian sultan Naṣr, who also ruled over Iraq, reestablished the same law in 1330, and saddled it with new limitations. Mongolian fury once again devastated the localities inhabited by Jews, when, in 1393, Timur captured Baghdad, Wasit, Hilla, Basra, and Tikrit, after obstinate resistance. Many Jews fled to other areas during this time.
The cumulative effect of the Mongol incursions is that most of the pre-existing Jewish community either died or fled, and the later Jewish community consisted largely of immigrants from other places, principally Aleppo. For this reason the traditions of Iraqi Jewry cannot be regarded as continuous with the Babylonian tradition of Talmudic or Geonic times..."
| 117 |
TrueLiberal Wed, Aug 22, 2012 3:11:27am |
...persecution of Jews by Islam in Spain and Morocco (and Egypt): 11th through 15th Centuries (from Wikipedia):
"Since the 11th century, there have been instances of pogroms against Jews.[12] Examples include the 1066 Granada massacre, the razing of the entire Jewish quarter in the Andalucian city of Granada.[13] In North Africa, there were cases of violence against Jews in the Middle Ages,[14] and in other Arab lands including Egypt,[15] Syria.[16] and Yemen[17] Jewish population was confined to segregated quarters, or mellahs, in Morocco beginning from the 15th century. In cities, a mellah was surrounded by a wall with a fortified gateway. In contrast, rural mellahs were separate villages inhabited solely by the Jews.[18]
The Almohads, who had taken control of much of Islamic Iberia by 1172, were far more fundamentalist in outlook than the Almoravides, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Jews and Christians were expelled from Morocco and Islamic Spain.[19] Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, some Jews, such as the family of Maimonides, fled south and east to the more tolerant Muslim lands, while others went northward to settle in the growing Christian kingdoms.[20][21]
In 1465, Arab mobs in Fez slaughtered thousands of Jews, leaving only 11 alive, after a Jewish deputy vizier treated a Muslim woman in an offensive manner. The killings touched off a wave of similar massacres throughout Morocco.[22][23]"
| 118 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 4:36:10am |
re: #111 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit- all because you were busted, over and over.
As for CL. lay off.
You won't ever know half of what she has forgotten.
| 119 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 4:42:17am |
re: #107 Destro
For how long?
Pivot and attack, again.
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Blaming the victim- again.
| 120 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:31:22am |
re: #118 researchok
I like how you declare victory and run away. It is very amusing.
| 121 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:46:26am |
re: #112 Sophia77
I find it funny that the same people that give me negatives give you positives for saying I was right. Amusing.
| 122 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 5:47:12am |
re: #117 TrueLiberal
There should be a hell for people that use Wikipedia as their source of knowledge.
| 123 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:21:37am |
re: #113 Sophia77
So here we had a formerly submissive people taking control over Arabs, both Muslim and Christian, and also this was seen as an act of colonialism at a time the world was trying to free itself from imperial control.
We kind of see that in another part of the world. Liberia. Same dynamics happened there. The local population resented the American Africans who set up the Liberian state and viewed them like European colonizers and have had a tense relationship ever since.
| 124 |
CuriousLurker Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:36:27am |
re: #121 Destro
I find it funny that the same people that give me negatives give you positives for saying I was right. Amusing.
Well, Sophia77 seems knowledgeable and I've never seen her be unnecessarily contentious or antagonistic, nor have I seen her refer to other LGF members as twits or say there should be a hell for them. Maybe that has something to do with the different reactions.
| 125 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:54:49am |
re: #124 CuriousLurker
Sorry, don't have time to babysit. And it is kind of sad that what I said in a very simple short sentence needed so much more from Sophia to get through to the same people who attacked me for saying the exact same thing in brief.
The only thing I can think of is they are Israeli partisans and their partisan mythology has Jewish people always having been in conflict with Muslims. Which is why their attacks on Muslims is no different than what you would find on Pamela Geller's website or Jihadwatch. I don't much like Islam either (or religions in general) but that does not mean I get to make shit up about the religion to demonize a people.
I am not partisan for any party, in some cases Israelis are in the right in some cases the Arabs and in some cases both sides are wrong.
| 126 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 6:59:27am |
re: #124 CuriousLurker
or say there should be a hell for them
I should add I said there should be a hell for people who use wikipedia for a reference. As you can see above I also used wikipedia for a reference.
It is dry humor I admit.
Also, I don't believe there is any such place as hell.
| 127 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:19:49am |
re: #120 Destro
Wanna play some more, scholar?
You said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Now, deal with true liberal's historical facts.
| 129 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:21:29am |
re: #125 Destro
More pivot and attack bullshit.
You said
...anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
And you are blaming the victim.
| 130 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:23:19am |
re: #123 Destro
What does any of that have t do with what you said, 'scholar'?
More pivot and attack.
| 131 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:25:16am |
re: #121 Destro
Because you finally managed to piss in the bowl does not make you equal to anyone. But if you need a gold star, I'll be happy to pretend you were a big boy today.
| 132 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 7:26:25am |
re: #122 Destro
There should be a hell for people that use Wikipedia as their source of knowledge.
More pivot and attack- is there anythng he said that was incorrect?
Please. do tell.
| 133 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 12:10:50pm |
re: #127 researchok
Wanna play some more, scholar?
You said
Now, deal with true liberal's historical facts.
Yea, you tell me why you have a problem with that statement. Jews and Muslims have been co-habitants in a way not possible in Christian Europe for centuries.
| 134 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 12:15:01pm |
re: #131 researchok
Because you finally managed to piss in the bowl does not make you equal to anyone. But if you need a gold star, I'll be happy to pretend you were a big boy today.
Says, the guy that says I am always looking to get in the last word. Hey, maybe I am.
Let me know when you get more racist talking points from Pamela Geller's racist website on how all Muslims are evil, etc,
| 135 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 1:34:14pm |
re: #133 Destro
More bullshit pivot and attack
You said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
There have been enough examples on this thread which have disproved your remarks, 'scholar'
| 136 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 1:36:16pm |
re: #134 Destro
This has nothing to do with Geller- in fact, you are more like her than I might ever be.
You don't give a damn about the truth- and never have.
No, this is about your bullshit, from day one.
You reap what you sow.
| 137 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 1:39:23pm |
re: #135 researchok
More bullshit pivot and attack
You said
There have been enough examples on this thread which have disproved your remarks, 'scholar'
Islam is a conspiracy?
| 138 |
Destro Wed, Aug 22, 2012 1:40:02pm |
re: #136 researchok
This has nothing to do with Geller- in fact, you are more like her than I might ever be.
You don't give a damn about the truth- and never have.
No, this is about your bullshit, from day one.
You reap what you sow.
What is bullshit? Specifics please. Not letting you get the last word, just because.
| 139 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 4:05:18pm |
re: #137 Destro
No, scholar
I was referring to the examples of Muslim antisemitism and violence that predated the establishment of the state of Israel by hundreds of years.
You said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
| 140 |
researchok Wed, Aug 22, 2012 4:08:28pm |
re: #138 Destro
Specifics, scholar?
You pivot and attack, don't answer the points that prove you to be a fraud and you think I'm the problem?
You excoriate everyone who disagrees with your bullshit and you can't understand just how you and Geller are alike?
That's funny- but not really.
Get help.
Really.
| 141 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:54:42am |
re: #139 researchok
Yea, labeling an entire religion as anti-semitic is Pamela Geller-ish.
Also, why Islam? Why are you not attacking/condemning Christianity and Western Civilization which have done far worse to Jews?
I think it is because you latched on to those that have a modern day agenda - like Pamela Geller.
| 142 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 7:09:40am |
re: #141 Destro
Yea, labeling an entire religion as anti-semitic is Pamela Geller-ish.
Also, why Islam? Why are you not attacking/condemning Christianity and Western Civilization which have done far worse to Jews?
I think it is because you latched on to those that have a modern day agenda - like Pamela Geller.
More pivit and attack bullshit.
You labeled an entire religion: You blamed Christianity for Muslim antisemitism- how very Pamela Geller of you
You were the one who brought up Islam and antisemitism, not me. You were the who said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
We certainly know that is bullshit as has been evidenced by so many examples given here.
As for your bullshit pivot and attack on me personally, my record an on Islam and Muslims is quite clear. I am probably one of the biggest defenders of Muslims and Islam there is.
I have stated many times the biggest victims of Muslims extremism and dysfunction and their apologists (like you) are Muslims themselves.
Turns out you really are a Pamela Geller. Now, you have proved yourself to be a bigot, just like her.
Anyone who disagree with you is a bigot.
Congratulations- you've gone from being a 'scholar' to being a pig.
| 143 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 7:25:55am |
re: #142 researchok
You labeled an entire religion: You blamed Christianity for Muslim antisemitism-
how very Pamela Geller of you
Yea, because you know the Crusades and the inquisition and the holocaust and stuff.
If on a scale of antisemitism we compare it to being an illness then Jews were suffering the common cold or at worst the flu under Islam and the black death under Christian civilization. At least until the end of WW2.
| 144 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 7:41:36am |
Yes pig, you blamed Christianity for Muslim antisemitism, not me.
And that is what we are talking about, pig.
You need to work on that pivot and attack thing. It isn't working out so well for you, pig.
Trying to change the tenor and substance of the conversation won't work, bigot.
| 145 |
Flavia Thu, Aug 23, 2012 8:04:09am |
re: #7 Destro
relatively tolerant of Jews
Yes, a "weasel word" phrase that, when examined, boils down to "when Jews (or any other non-Muslim religion) live under Muslim control, they are left in peace when they accept OFFICIAL SECOND-CLASS STATUS, with taxes & restrictions." Relative, indeed. & nothing like
" anti-semetism [sic] did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state."
| 146 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 8:16:56am |
re: #145 Flavia
By definition and as a rule, bigots are weasels
In a classic example of projection, this bigot is displacing his own bigotry on me.
Psych 101.
| 147 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 10:09:29am |
re: #145 Flavia
Yes, a "weasel word" phrase that, when examined, boils down to "when Jews (or any other non-Muslim religion) live under Muslim control, they are left in peace when they accept OFFICIAL SECOND-CLASS STATUS, with taxes & restrictions." Relative, indeed. & nothing like
re: #146 researchok
Is that any different than the arrangements that serfs live under in feudal times?
And don't say there was not a racial or religious component to serfdom because the European serfs were the local population ruled by the invading tribes who in some cases were a different form of Christian (Arian Germanic tribes ruling over Romano-Gaulish Catholic serfs).
Why are you comparing modern concepts of human rights to the world of the middle ages?
Comparing to the times - Islamic civilization was much more tolerant.
And we are talking historical, not modern day. Because if we are to attack Islam for what it did in the middle ages then why is Christianity of today not banned for what it did to the Jews?
| 148 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:08:42am |
re: #147 Destro
Wow. I'm impressed. You took the letters of, what, fifteen Scrabble sets and threw them up in the air, and they fell to earth into something that is almost coherent? That's almost proof of the existence of Gd. But not quite.
| 149 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:35:02am |
re: #147 Destro
And we are talking historical, not modern day. Because if we are to attack Islam for what it did in the middle ages then why is Christianity of today not banned for what it did to the Jews?
Yes bigot, it is very different.
What Christianity was, in no longer the case.
What much of Islam is today (especially in Middle East and Pakistan), though not all is hateful, racist and bigoted. Long gone is the historical Islam, forward thinking and progressive in it's own way.
Christianity has learned from it's past. Many Muslims today 'Promise to finish what Hitler started' and 'Allah in Heaven, Hitler on earth!'
Besides, we're getting to far off topic- you blamed Christianity for Muslim antisemitism and violence- patently false and you said,
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
Blaming the victim? You and the hard Christian right have a lot in common.
| 150 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:38:41am |
re: #148 Bob Levin
Wow. I'm impressed. You took the letters of, what, fifteen Scrabble sets and threw them up in the air, and they fell to earth into something that is almost coherent? That's almost proof of the existence of Gd. But not quite.
He'll be back.
You know the pathology- he just can't help himself.
It is interesting to watch what is textbook being played out inb written format.
Really does highlight the Researchok Law;
All pathologies, left untreated, escalate.
| 152 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:44:28am |
re: #148 Bob Levin
Wow. I'm impressed. You took the letters of, what, fifteen Scrabble sets and threw them up in the air, and they fell to earth into something that is almost coherent? That's almost proof of the existence of Gd. But not quite.
When you can spell god let me know, douche-bag.
| 153 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:46:37am |
re: #149 researchok
you blamed Christianity for Muslim antisemitism and violence- patently false and you said,
That's right. The modern Islamic world post European colonization has been influenced by Christian and or Western civilization origin anti-semitism.
When will you call on the Catholic Church to be banned in the USA for acts of genocide against the Jews?
| 154 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:47:45am |
re: #149 researchok
What much of Islam is today (
So you are now agreeing with me that Islam of the past was tolerant of Jews? Then it's a question of how much tolerance we are talking about to get Islam not labeled anti-semetic in the past era.
Thank you for playing, it was a pleasure turning your argument around towards mine.
| 155 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:48:27am |
re: #151 Destro
More pivot and attack, lying pig
I'm not agreeing with you in the least- you come in after the fact and pretend to be someone you are not, as evidenced by your own words.
You were the one who called me a bigot when in fact, that was yourself.
You were the one who blamed Muslim antisemitism on Christians
You were the one who said there was no Muslim antisemitism until the State of Israel was founded.
And you were the one who declared his hatred for America- or have you forgotten that as well?
You are the one who is a bigoted, lying pig.
Plus ca change, plus ca reste la meme.
I suppose the good news is you keep this thread alive. More and more, people will see you for who you really are, pig.
| 156 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:51:02am |
re: #153 Destro
More lying, pig?
You said there was no Muslim antisemitism until Christianity came into the picture.
That is patently false, pig, as has been shown on this thread many times.
I wonder how your younger sibling might feel about you shaming this way with your deceit.
I really do.
| 157 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:53:52am |
re: #153 Destro
That's right. The modern Islamic world post European colonization has been influenced by Christian and or Western civilization origin anti-semitism.
When will you call on the Catholic Church to be banned in the USA for acts of genocide against the Jews?
Where did I say that, pig?
Exactly where did I say or imply
the modern Islamic world post European colonization has been influenced by Christian and or Western civilization origin anti-semitism.
Please reference that.
And thank you for conceding the Islamic world of today has regressed and learned nothing from the past.
You really are a pig.
| 158 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:55:33am |
re: #152 Destro
LOL@ pig
That's the best you can do, comment on typos??
You make me laugh- you have to respond even when you make a fool of yourself.
Get help.
| 159 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:56:59am |
re: #153 Destro
Pig, we weren't talking about the Catholic Church, but now that you've brought it up, why not comment on the recent fatwas to attack the Church and Christians?
| 160 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 11:59:08am |
re: #155 researchok
And you were the one who declared his hatred for America- or have you forgotten that as well?
Maybe I hate your version of America? Now, excuse me I have an American flag to burn while singing the Soviet national anthem or some such.
| 161 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:01:42pm |
re: #154 Destro
Just for you, pig, I'll repeat myself
Where did I say that, pig?
Exactly where did I say or imply
the modern Islamic world post European colonization has been influenced by Christian and or Western civilization origin anti-semitism.
Please reference that.
And thank you for conceding the Islamic world of today has regressed and learned nothing from the past.
And where did I say I was
agreeing with me that Islam of the past was tolerant of Jews? Then it's a question of how much tolerance we are talking about to get Islam not labeled anti-semetic in the past era.
You really are a pig.
You said
The Muslims aka the 'lions' in this analogy were actually very tolerant of Jews and anti-semetism did not show up in the Muslim world until - ironically enough - the founding of the Israeli state
And so much evidence to the contrary was shown to you.
Like I said, your younger siblings and family must be s proud of you, pig
| 162 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:02:32pm |
re: #158 researchok
It wasn't a typo - religious people misspell god as Gd because they think the wicked scary fairy sky creature will be angry they said his name out loud or spelled it.
Apparently, god is all powerful and all knowing but can't figure out you are talking about him when you don't use his official name or truncate it when writing it down.
Wow, you did not know that about Gd and god and why it would be written like that and thought I was commenting on a typo? and you are commenting on religion and history?
| 163 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:02:46pm |
re: #160 Destro
You were the one who said he hated America, not me.
Rather enthusiastically, I might add.
Don't you recall, pig?
| 164 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:04:37pm |
re: #161 researchok
Your own words " What much of Islam is today"
So what was it in the past? Ergo it was tolerant.
There we go! Easy peasy. Not bad for a product of the American public school system.
| 165 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:05:00pm |
re: #162 Destro
If it wasn't a typo, then your attack was doubly disgusting.
Now you are denigration religious people just because they are religious.
Nice- and expected from a pig such as yourself.
Though it is curious to note your denigration is directed at some but all religious groups.
Pig
| 166 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:05:20pm |
re: #163 researchok
You were the one who said he hated America, not me.
Rather enthusiastically, I might add.
Don't you recall, pig?
Excuse me I need to shine my shoes with the constitution or some such.
| 167 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:06:31pm |
re: #165 researchok
Now you are denigration religious people just because they are religious.
24/7.
I can't respect adults who think fairy tales are real.
| 168 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:08:51pm |
re: #164 Destro
Pig, we were and are talking about antisemitism in the Muslim world.
Pivot and attack won't work for you anymore.
First you claimed there was no antisemitism in the Muslim world until the State of Israel and then you claimed that antisemitism was the purely a Christian invention, unknown by Muslims.
Both of those remarks have been proved to be lies- which interestingly neither bothers or shames you.
I can understand why.
| 169 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:08:59pm |
re: #167 Destro
Coming from a man who names himself after a cartoon.
| 170 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:09:32pm |
| 171 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:11:29pm |
re: #167 Destro
You seem to be doing a good job of it.
I isn't as if Islam doesn't have fairy tales of it's own.
And you do a lot of idealizing (look it up) for a group with their set of fairy tales.
Most interesting, armchair jihadi.....
| 172 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:14:38pm |
re: #169 Bob Levin
Coming from a man who names himself after a cartoon.
Destro is actually my real name and it's an action figure not a cartoon.
| 173 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:15:01pm |
re: #164 Destro
LOLOL @ pig!
I'm not a product of American public schools (do you steal all your lines? Is anything original?).
The discussion isn't about me, pig, it is about you and the succession of lies you've told.
I'm not agreeing with you in the least- you come in after the fact and pretend to be someone you are not, as evidenced by your own words.
You were the one who called me a bigot when in fact, that was yourself.
You were the one who blamed Muslim antisemitism on Christians
You were the one who said there was no Muslim antisemitism until the State of Israel was founded.
Give us anther dance. pig.
| 175 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:15:54pm |
re: #171 researchok
Sorry, say that again, I was using a portrait of George Washington to light up my Cuban cigar. Fidel gave the cigar to me himself during my last trip there.
| 176 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:20:31pm |
Pig, do you really believe this string will make up for the time when you really did declare your hatred for America?
Do you really believe you will be able to say it was a joke back then, hoping this string will change the context?
Are you that out of touch?
Do you really believe that will sanitize the rest of this thread and the display7 of your deceit, bigotry and deliberate obfuscation?
| 177 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:29:51pm |
re: #172 Destro
re: #176 researchok
Hey Bob your religious and what not.
The Jewish authority Maimonides has maintained that Islam is a Noahide religion but Christianity is not.
Hence adherence to Noahide rules assumes Islam is not anti-semetic but Christianity theologically is. Discuss amongst yourselves while I get some coffee.
| 178 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:41:27pm |
re: #177 Destro
Hey pig, what's with pivot and attack?
This hs been about you, your bigotry and the lies you continue to tell!
You try so hard pig and always end up having to face your own words.
| 179 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:44:14pm |
re: #178 researchok
I stand by every word I ever wrote here - and you seem unhinged. And I won't let you get the last word in either - Sorry, Cobra Commander is calling - we are plotting some anti-GI Joe stuff as we speak.
| 180 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:47:55pm |
re: #177 Destro
The Jewish authority Maimonides has maintained that Islam is a Noahide religion but Christianity is not.
That's not an accurate statement.
| 181 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:51:55pm |
re: #179 Destro
re: #179 Destro
I stand by every word I ever wrote here - and you seem unhinged. And I won't let you get the last word in either - Sorry, Cobra Commander is calling - we are plotting some anti-GI Joe stuff as we speak.
I'm so glad you said that, pig.
At least here is one thing I can thank you for.
As for being 'unhinged', I expected no less of a comment from you.
Everyone who call you out for what you are is unhinged- right?
LOLOL
| 182 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 12:55:55pm |
re: #180 Bob Levin
That's not an accurate statement.
It doesn't matter what you say.
He's Destro- he's an expert and he knows more.
What is interesting (and as a clinician I know you have more experience that I with this) is how he is never, ever wrong. He is incapable of making a mistake and admitting to it. He would sooner dig himself a deeper hole (or attempt to dig sideways) rather than say, 'I was mistaken. Let's move on'.
He truly does not understand how that undermines his credibility- blindness, no self awareness, insight, etc.
Would make for a fascinating paper (both of them)
Everything is the here and now.
| 183 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:04:51pm |
re: #182 researchok
What we could discuss amongst ourselves is exactly what he is going to say in his getting-in-the-last-comment.
So, we know that he's going to make some statement about my mind, and it looks like he's started that line of attack with you. He's got to double-down and say that he's been right all along, and that we have somehow confirmed this through our implied arguments.
I think he's also going to try to semi-mock his own comments, as if we have somehow misinterpreted his words. We also know that English grammar will not be used.
That's all I got. What do you think?
| 184 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:13:36pm |
re: #183 Bob Levin
One thing for sure- can only respond. Strategic thinking is conceptual to him whether or not he is engaged in an ongoing (emotional) exchange or not.
He semi mocks because he believes he can rely on that to temper his other remarks- at best adolescent. He reverts to the 'entertainer' because that puts a distance between his real self and that persona he wants to portray.
His remarks re education, scholarship and so on project his own shortcomings in those areas (the inferiority complex- here is a classic case of needing to be perceived as superficially superior- and not just him)
All in all, pretty textbook save for the dysfunctional attachment to shame culture.
He needs to eliminate the source so as to erase his own shortcomings. He really believes he (they) will perceived differently.
| 185 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:14:41pm |
re: #180 Bob Levin
[Link: www.myjewishlearning.com...]
This was left to Maimonides [1135-1204] who, as we shall see, strongly put forth the view that Muslims were not idolaters. Although, to be sure, Islam was heresy, this did not stop Maimonides from expressing a positive view about Islam--or even about Christianity, which he considered to be idolatry.
| 186 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:15:30pm |
re: #181 researchok
So the guy saying "pig" in each post is NOT the unhinged one. Got it!
| 187 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:28:04pm |
re: #186 Destro
That's exactly right, pig.
Think of me of the mirror you are forced to look at.
It's a kind of aversion therapy- you have to see what everyone else does.
Pig
| 188 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:28:48pm |
re: #186 Destro
And besides, you do stand behind all your words, right?
| 189 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:29:20pm |
re: #184 researchok
Well you are classically trained. That's impressive.
I should have seen the rebuttal-to-a-point-that-was-not-made coming down street. My bad. In other words, the Maimonides citation has nothing to do with the Noachide Laws. (Now, he must double-down on this 'point').
| 191 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:44:20pm |
re: #190 researchok
You might want to re-read the last point, 189. That was me, not Action Figure.
| 192 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:47:51pm |
| 196 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 1:58:14pm |
re: #195 Bob Levin
And make no mistake, he isn't classically trained.
If he were, he'd know how to respond.
| 197 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 2:03:33pm |
re: #196 researchok
Okay, go back to comment 184. That's you. That's a very classical analysis. You've had classical training, you must, somewhere down the line.
Not that there's anything wrong with that. ;-)
| 198 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 4:30:52pm |
re: #189 Bob Levin
Since Islam has a prohibition of idolatry and has all the other 6 laws down it is per Maimonide, Noachide.
| 199 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 4:31:29pm |
re: #187 researchok
That's exactly right, pig.
Think of me of the mirror you are forced to look at.
It's a kind of aversion therapy- you have to see what everyone else does.
Pig
So when I look at you, I look at an American douchebag?
| 200 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 4:42:12pm |
re: #199 Destro
Pig, if you see yourself as a douche bag, I'd consider that progress.
| 201 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 4:47:51pm |
He doubled-down on Maimonides. I should get coupons for this.
| 202 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 4:49:44pm |
re: #198 Destro
Pig, Judaism, Christianity (the only two religions you have thus far you have excoriated) and Islam all prohibit Idolatry.
That alone does not make it a Noahide religion.
In any event, that isn't the real isue, is it?
Pivot and attack, pivot and attack...
You still can't get that to work for you.
You do remember the long list of lies you promulgated, right? You know, the ones you stand by, right?
All that dancing and you have nothing to show for it.
You're biggest problem is that we know you.
Do you prefer being referred to as Pig or Douche Bag?
| 203 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 5:01:44pm |
re: #187 researchok
That's exactly right, pig.
Think of me of the mirror you are forced to look at.
It's a kind of aversion therapy- you have to see what everyone else does.
Pig
So when I look in a mirror I see you and you called me a pig, so since I see you in my reflection, ergo you are a pig.
| 204 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 5:03:41pm |
re: #201 Bob Levin
The seven laws of Noah:
1.Prohibition of Idolatry = per Maimonides Islam has that.
The rest are self evident in Islam.
2.Prohibition of Murder
3.Prohibition of Theft
4.Prohibition of Sexual immorality
5.Prohibition of Blasphemy
6.Prohibition of eating flesh taken from an animal while it is still alive
7.Establishment of courts of law
So how exactly is Maimonides not saying Islam is a Noahide religion?
| 205 |
Destro Thu, Aug 23, 2012 5:05:01pm |
re: #202 researchok
Pig, Judaism, Christianity (the only two religions you have thus far you have excoriated) and Islam all prohibit Idolatry.
That alone does not make it a Noahide religion.
In any event, that isn't the real isue, is it?
Pivot and attack, pivot and attack...
You still can't get that to work for you.
You do remember the long list of lies you promulgated, right? You know, the ones you stand by, right?
All that dancing and you have nothing to show for it.
You're biggest problem is that we know you.
Do you prefer being referred to as Pig or Douche Bag?
per Maimonides who sort of started this idea of Noahidism says Islam qualifies and Christianity does not.
| 206 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 5:07:49pm |
re: #203 Destro
Your mirror
Look
Either pig or douche bag.
Ah, IU'll just call you both.
It isn't as if it is inaccurate.
LOL@ piss poor pivot and attack.
| 207 |
researchok Thu, Aug 23, 2012 5:08:26pm |
re: #205 Destro
Pivot and attack, pivot and attack...
You still can't get that to work for you.
You do remember the long list of lies you promulgated, right? You know, the ones you stand by, right?
All that dancing and you have nothing to show for it.
You're biggest problem is that we know you.
Do you prefer being referred to as Pig or Douche Bag?
| 208 |
Bob Levin Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:34:04pm |
re: #204 Destro
Earlier today you made a post mocking Jewish law--which you can do in this country. But it would indicate that you don't care. Mocking that I won't spell out the full English name of Gd, which you can do, also shows that you don't really care.
So why would you want to know? Why would it matter? You're going to have to offer some proof that it matters to you. Are you pretending to be an ardent atheist, when in fact you love Islam (which is fine, although the lying about being an atheist, or publicly proclaiming you have renounced your Gd, might be an issue you'd want to address privately)?
In other words, if you don't care, drop the subject. But you're wrong about Maimonides.
| 209 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:48:58pm |
re: #133 Destro
Yea, you tell me why you have a problem with that statement. Jews and Muslims have been co-habitants in a way not possible in Christian Europe for centuries.
Not true, actually. Europe's history with the Jews is very dark, but there are extensive periods of coexistence and tolerance. If Muslim Cordoba is to be praised, so are Aragon and Valencia in the thirteenth and fourteenth centuries, under Christian rulers, the early centuries of the Polish communities, what's called 'the heroic age' of the Ashkenazim...the list goes on. There were many times and places in Christian Europe where Jews were fairly secure and legally protected, and many places under Islam where they were not, as well as vice-versa.
Trying to pit the two against each other in some tolerance showdown is foolish. It's two huge areas, and two very long histories.
I tend to feel that Islam would win for 'better for medieval Jewry', which is my area of real interest, but by the nineteenth century...maybe not so much.
| 210 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:53:00pm |
re: #153 Destro
That's right. The modern Islamic world post European colonization has been influenced by Christian and or Western civilization origin anti-semitism.
When will you call on the Catholic Church to be banned in the USA for acts of genocide against the Jews?
Who's calling for anything to be banned in the USA?
| 211 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:54:25pm |
re: #162 Destro
It wasn't a typo - religious people misspell god as Gd because they think the wicked scary fairy sky creature will be angry they said his name out loud or spelled it.
Apparently, god is all powerful and all knowing but can't figure out you are talking about him when you don't use his official name or truncate it when writing it down.
Wow, you did not know that about Gd and god and why it would be written like that and thought I was commenting on a typo? and you are commenting on religion and history?
No, he just thought you were being an asshole, and called you on it. But you're oblivious.
| 212 |
SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Aug 23, 2012 6:56:36pm |
re: #177 Destro
re: #176 researchok
Hey Bob your religious and what not.
The Jewish authority Maimonides has maintained that Islam is a Noahide religion but Christianity is not.
Hence adherence to Noahide rules assumes Islam is not anti-semetic but Christianity theologically is. Discuss amongst yourselves while I get some coffee.
No, it assumes Islam is not idolatry, but Christianity theologically is. I have no idea where you get your ideas about what constitutes anti-Semitism from, but they're bizarre.
| 213 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 5:39:15am |
re: #206 researchok
LOL! So you are not like Pamela Geller how again? Your racist rants are more suited for her website don't you think?
| 214 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 5:42:22am |
re: #208 Bob Levin
Earlier today you made a post mocking Jewish law--which you can do in this country.
Mocking Religious law. Sure.
Here is one example:
| 215 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 5:51:16am |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
re: #206 researchok
re: #208 Bob Levin
I am not pitting one or the other. If they are attacking Islam as a historically antisemitic religion, that is a false hood. Using their logic Christianity is a worse religion for anti-semtic classifications.
Get down to it this thread is designed to sneak in Pamela Geller attitudes towards another people. I have my problems with Islam and religions in general but Pamela Geller-ites want a perpetual war with Islam. As you can see, they bring up incidents from hundreds of years ago as if Islam has been run by a cabal - dare I say they are pushing their version of "the Protocols of the Elders of Islam" where their Islamic cabal purpose is to wipe out Jews and Christians over the long haul and have been following some dire plan to carry that out.
No.
It's the middle ages. Torture was considered a normal function of govt. You had rule by tyrants, some were good some were bloodthirsty, others were crazy. But it was not a conspiracy.
| 216 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 7:38:54am |
re: #214 Destro
Right. So why do you care about the finer points of Maimonides?
| 217 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 7:58:58am |
re: #215 Destro
Odd, you seem to be writing to a wider audience right now. What would give you the idea that you have a wider audience? We're at comment 217, for the most part it's not been a productive conversation--why would you think more people are reading?
Do you know a guy named War With Music? Are you that guy? You two have very similar writing styles, and I've been reading your stuff for days. You're practically my ring tone.
What you don't seem to understand, is that we are attacking your style of argument--which is not honest and contains hidden agendas. You think we're talking about Islam and Christianity. We're not. We're talking about your inability to stay on a subject. And most important, we're talking about arguments that have been heard before you were born, that have been the warning bell for Jews to get out of town, or Europe, or the sections of the Middle East. And we know the danger of those arguments, because so many Jews did not get far enough away. Those are your arguments. They're old arguments. They may be new to you, but not to us.
| 218 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:00:08am |
re: #207 researchok
I am pretty sure you are doing all the attacking. Thank you for showing us how unhinged you are.
| 219 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:04:12am |
re: #216 Bob Levin
Right. So why do you care about the finer points of Maimonides?
It is not about care it is about knowledge. I care about accumulating knowledge. Even knowledge I disagree with.
| 220 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:06:17am |
re: #217 Bob Levin
Odd, you seem to be writing to a wider audience right now. What would give you the idea that you have a wider audience? We're at comment 217, for the most part it's not been a productive conversation--why would you think more people are reading?
Do you know a guy named War With Music? Are you that guy? You two have very similar writing styles, and I've been reading your stuff for days. You're practically my ring tone.
What you don't seem to understand, is that we are attacking your style of argument--which is not honest and contains hidden agendas. You think we're talking about Islam and Christianity. We're not. We're talking about your inability to stay on a subject. And most important, we're talking about arguments that have been heard before you were born, that have been the warning bell for Jews to get out of town, or Europe, or the sections of the Middle East. And we know the danger of those arguments, because so many Jews did not get far enough away. Those are your arguments. They're old arguments. They may be new to you, but not to us.
That is odd, that you think I think I am writing to a wider audience. Again, you come up with these paranoid fantasies that are just bizarre. Also bizarre is this assertion I changed the subject or some such. I have been on the same subject all along. While you say I have a hidden agenda I say YOU (or the person who posted this and supports this article) have a hidden agenda - to demonize Islam so to push for an argument that you (the USA and Israel especially) can't make any treaties with same because "Islam is anti-semitic" and thus all Muslims are not to be trusted.
That is the underlying context of these posts and why they are from the Pamela Geller playbook.
And that I make you unhinged is because you know this.
| 221 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:14:51am |
re: #219 Destro
Fine. Then start by staying on the subject. After you're good at that, we can talk Maimonides.
| 222 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:19:57am |
re: #220 Destro
So much for Maimonides. And if you think I'm so off the tracks, why would you think I possess the knowledge of Maimonides?
You claim you're a leftist. I don't think you've read Marx, or Sartre. I don't think you even know who Lukacs is. So I wouldn't be asking what you think of the first paragraph of Das Kapital. Get it?
| 223 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 8:27:46am |
re: #209 SanFranciscoZionist
I tend to feel that Islam would win for 'better for medieval Jewry', which is my area of real interest, but by the nineteenth century...maybe not so much.
My assertion is that anti-semitism is a word and concept that was coined in the late 19th century to characterize what was happening to the Jews in Europe by Europeans and based on that the same thing was not happening to Jews in Islamic lands that was happening to them in European lands.
The people attacking me here hate and wanted to destroy my argument that Islam was not historically anti-semetic and Islamic culture until the Zionist movement and started to embrace European forms of anti-semitism as conflict arose with Zionist settlements and Arabs. Not an outrageous statement but of course cuts into the argument the founding of Israel caused no problems. That does not mean it is not correct for Israel to exist as a nation. It was good that India for example became independent from British rule just like it was good for Israel to become independent but when India left British rule this caused the death of millions of people and ethnic population exchanges on a mass scale and now we have in India and Pakistan 2 nuclear weapons armed foes in a Cold War like standoff. So in the end India's independence, while inevitable and good thing in world history was not problem free. Same with Zionism and Israel. But if you are a booster you don't want such considerations mentioned lest your position or narrative is undermined.
| 224 |
Destro Fri, Aug 24, 2012 9:55:45am |
re: #221 Bob Levin
I brought up Maimonides to show in his writings he did not indicate Islam is hateful to Jews. Again, if it escaped you - it was to undermine the notion that there is a 'Protocol for the Elders of Islam' super secret plot to kill Jews and or convert them or that Muslims have had this as their historic theology/ideology.
| 225 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 10:24:33am |
re: #224 Destro
No one was ever making that point.
Religions are basically books. However, people have to interpret those books, and that is where the trouble usually starts. The books are very difficult to understand, not simple. Anyone can't do it right out of the gate. It takes study and practice. Since I am only familiar with one set of texts, I can't make any statements one way or the other about another set of texts.
And I think the others in this thread might agree with me.
So--you were misinterpreting quite a bit in this conversation. And that was the problem.
This means I would never say something like--the Koran says so and so. That would be foolish. I find others to be very free with their interpretations of the Torah. This, to me, is also foolish. There are religious scholars whose interpretations are questionable. Interpreting the Torah is not easy--hence the commandment to constantly argue about the meaning. And it takes that level of dedication.
When you bring up Maimonides, you are essentially asking for interpretations of an interpreter. That's even more difficult. So, I don't think we're going to have that conversation--for a while.
| 226 |
TrueLiberal Fri, Aug 24, 2012 12:08:22pm |
re: #215 Destro
Destro,
Islam is indeed a traditionally anti-Semitic (i.e. Jew-hating) religion.
This can be seen from:
1) Mohammed breaking his peace treaty with the Jewish tribe in Arabia, falsely claiming it was the Jews who broke the treaty, and annihilating them.
2) Annihilating all the Jews in Arabia, such that no Jews remained
3) Implementing a permanent ban of Jews from living in Arabia, a ban that remains today, that applies to NO OTHER RELIGION. Other religions are only banned from entering Mecca or from practicing their religion in Arabia.
4) Claiming that the "Last Days" cannot come until every last Jew is killed ("oh, believer, behind me hides a Jew...come and kill him" and the last days cannot come until Islam has its last battle with the Jews)
5) Islam claiming--without evidence--that the Jews intentionally altered and thereby corrupted the word of God.
6) Islam attempting to steal the Jews' birthright by claiming that Ishmael and not Isaac was Abraham's sole legitimate heir and, further, that Arabs are descended from Ishmael (can you say "cultural co-option"? 2,500 years after the fact?)
7) The rules of Dhimmitude that required Jews (and Christians) to live in humiliation under Islam
8) Islam taking Judaism's main holy site, building a mosque on it, and claiming it is the "remote sanctuary" even though it is not the "remote sanctuary" referred to in the Koran at all (again, cultural co-option)
9) Numerous Jew-hating slanders written into the Koran regarding the "nature" of "the Jew"
Anti-Semitic...from the start.
Sorry, Destro, that this blows away your ability to blame Israel/Zionists, etc. for Muslim hate. Maybe you can find something else to blame on the Jews? Others have.
| 227 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 12:21:46pm |
re: #226 TrueLiberal
Still waiting for you to provide sources for your earlier assertions. You won't. Your hatred for Muslims is part of the problem.
| 228 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 12:39:13pm |
re: #227 CuriousLurker
Pretty tame, by standards of....The Basement. I think this should be a new feature--The Basement. As in, "Let's take this discussion down to...The Basement [squinty eyes]."
| 229 |
TrueLiberal Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:04:06pm |
I could easily do that (with 30 minutes of work), or you could, with Google.
The real issue is not the evidence.
The real issue is that you are confused.
You have demonized anyone who is critical of Islam in you own mind.
So that you are not capable of assimilating or believing any criticism of Islam.
Maybe you and I should get together for a drink sometime. I'm sure we'll get along just famously if we spend our time criticizing every single religion in the world OTHER than Islam.
| 230 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:19:08pm |
re: #229 TrueLiberal
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm going to assume that you're Jewish.
If so, isn't the real issue, how can Jews survive this palpable onslaught of antisemitism? How can we survive the clear genocidal intent of Israel's neighbors, and the subdued support given to this intent from so much of the world?
If that's the real issue, do you really think that focusing on Islam, and some would say having a blurry focus on Islam, is the real solution to our problems? Because I don't see that anywhere in the Torah.
If you're not Jewish, thank you for caring.
| 231 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:23:05pm |
re: #229 TrueLiberal
could easily do that (with 30 minutes of work), or you could, with Google.
I don't need to Google anything, I've been Muslim for 20+ years, which is how I know you won't answer. Because you can't, you don't have the requisite knowledge—you're just another hater getting you hate on.
The real issue is not the evidence.
The real issue is that you are confused.
You have demonized anyone who is critical of Islam in you own mind.
So that you are not capable of assimilating or believing any criticism of Islam.
As a member of LGF for 10 whole days you suddenly know what's in my mind? Perhaps you can search the archived comments and come up with even ONE SINGLE INSTANCE of me demonizing anyone who has been critical of Islam when it was warranted. Wait, what? Did I say warranted? Hmm, I thought I was "not capable of assimilating or believing any criticism of Islam".
Maybe you and I should get together for a drink sometime. I'm sure we'll get along just famously if we spend our time criticizing every single religion in the world OTHER than Islam.
Stupid, childish, hyperbole. You don't even do sarcasm well.
You're a hate-filled idiot and I have neither the time nor the patience for your bullshit. This will be our last conversation.
| 232 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:27:08pm |
re: #230 Bob Levin
If you're not Jewish, thank you for caring.
Caring? This is caring? If I expressed my caring about Islam in a like manner, I'd have been banned from here months ago.
| 233 |
TrueLiberal Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:39:43pm |
I do not hate Muslims.
However, Islam is a faith that, like Christianity, has embedded within its theology and its history, very deep-seeded Jew-hatred.
Sorry, Curious Lurker.
Islam is no better than Christianity, theologically, on matters related to "the Jews."
Feel free to refute any of my 9 points. I welcome that debate.
I hate NOBODY. Sorry for that.
| 234 |
TrueLiberal Fri, Aug 24, 2012 1:47:39pm |
Curious Lurker,
I would like to save time, but I would like to be fair to you.
You select 3 of my nine points that you deny.
I pick any one of the 3 to provide supporting evidence.
Fair enough?
| 236 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:05:20pm |
re: #226 TrueLiberal
Get the hell off my website.
| 237 |
Charles Johnson Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:06:52pm |
I have totally had it with these anti-Muslim freaks who keep sneaking in thinking they can spread their rancid hatred at LGF.
| 238 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:10:28pm |
re: #232 CuriousLurker
Actually, I apologize. I have a reason, which would sound like an excuse, so just leave it at my being very sorry.
| 239 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:12:24pm |
re: #235 Bob Levin
Ever see The Closer? ;-)
Yes, as a matter of fact it's one of my all-time favorite programs, but at the moment I'm still too pissed off to try to connect the dots.
| 240 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:13:24pm |
re: #238 Bob Levin
Actually, I apologize. I have a reason, which would sound like an excuse, so just leave it at my being very sorry.
Accepted. No harm, no foul.
| 241 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:13:50pm |
re: #239 CuriousLurker
Here's the inflection: Than Que. And that's the meaning.
| 242 |
Bob Levin Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:15:44pm |
re: #240 CuriousLurker
Okay, you're wonderful. I'm cooking. See you in few days.
| 243 |
CuriousLurker Fri, Aug 24, 2012 2:17:43pm |
re: #242 Bob Levin
Okay, you're wonderful. I'm cooking. See you in few days.
You too. Have a good Shabbat.
| 244 |
Flavia Sat, Aug 25, 2012 12:58:07am |
re: #147 Destro
re: #146 researchok
Is that any different than the arrangements that serfs live under in feudal times?
No, & thank you for bolstering my point: Jews were held to be distinctly lower by the Muslims who ruled them.
And don't say there was not a racial or religious component to serfdom because the European serfs were the local population ruled by the invading tribes who in some cases were a different form of Christian (Arian Germanic tribes ruling over Romano-Gaulish Catholic serfs).
Why on earth would I want to deny something that, again, only bolsters my point? That there was definitely a religious component to Islamic domination of non-Islamic groups.
Why are you comparing modern concepts of human rights to the world of the middle ages?
Why are you trying to put words in my mouth & back off what you said? We were discussing amity/enmity of Jews/Muslims - not whether Muslim overlords treated Jews as well as modern times would demand.
Comparing to the times - Islamic civilization was much more tolerant.
No, not that much. In fact, I'm not sure that Xianity demanded a formal recognition by Jews that we were inferior to them; they just treated us like we were.
And we are talking historical, not modern day. Because if we are to attack Islam for what it did in the middle ages then why is Christianity of today not banned for what it did to the Jews?
Irrelevant.
| 245 |
Flavia Sat, Aug 25, 2012 1:10:41am |
re: #162 Destro
It wasn't a typo - religious people misspell god as Gd because they think the wicked scary fairy sky creature will be angry they said his name out loud or spelled it.
How polite of you.
& wrong, of course.
We truncate his name to make sure it gets the due respect it deserves. Once it is written, whatever it is written on becomes, in effect, a holy work, & may not be destroyed. Nothing is more ephemeral than computer screens - you turn them off, & everything disappears.
But at least now I know just what your problem is.
| 248 |
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