LGF

Kerry's "People's Peace Treaty"

Sun, Mar 7, 2004 at 4:40:11 pm PST

This is the “People’s Peace Treaty” that John Kerry and the VVAW signed, and demanded that the US accept:

Joint Treaty of Peace

Between the People of The United States of America, South Vietnam and North Vietnam

Preamble

Be it known that the American people and the Vietnamese people are not enemies. The war is carried out in the names of the people of the United States and South Vietnam, but without our consent. It destroys the land and people of Vietnam. It drains America of its resources, its youth, and its honor.

We hereby agree to end the war on the following terms, so that both peoples can live under the joy of independence and can devote themselves to building a society based on human equality and respect for the earth. In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.

Terms of Peace Treaty

1. The Americans agree to immediate and total withdrawal from Vietnam, and publicly to set the date by which all U.S. military forces will be removed.

2. The Vietnamese pledge that as soon as the U. S. government publicly sets a date for total withdrawal: they will enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.

3. There will be an immediate cease-fire between U. S. forces and those led by the Provisional Revolutionary Government of South Vietnam.

4. They will enter discussions on the procedures to guarantee the safety of all withdrawing troops.

5. The Americans pledge to end the imposition of Thieu-Ky-Khiem on the people of South Vietnam in order to insure their right to self-determination and so that all political prisoners can be released.

6. The Vietnamese pledge to form a provisional coalition government to organize democratic elections. All parties agree to respect the results of elections in which all South Vietnamese can participate freely without the presence of any foreign troops.

7. The South Vietnamese pledge to enter discussion of procedures to guarantee the safety and political freedom of those South Vietnamese who have collaborated with the U. S. or with U. S. -supported regimes.

8. The Americans and Vietnamese agree to respect the independence, peace and neutrality of Laos and Cambodia in accord with the 1954 and 1962 Geneva Conventions and not to interfere in the internal affairs of these two countries.

9. Upon these points of agreement, we pledge to end the war and resolve all other questions in the spirit of self-determination and mutual respect for the independence and political freedom of the people of Vietnam and the United States.

Pledge

By ratifying this agreement, we pledge to take whatever actions are appropriate to implement the terms of the People to people Treaty and to insure its acceptance by the government of the United States.

Notice: the “treaty” begins by conceding everything to the North Vietnamese, then relies on their good will to “enter discussions” to free American prisoners.

Echoes of Neville Chamberlain.

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143 comments

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1 Tim K  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:44:18pm

Looks like treason to me.

2 hillbilly geek  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:45:24pm

I smell... tshirt! posters! (too long for a bumpersticker)
think "Desiderata" or whatever.
whoot!

3 Frank IBC  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:47:34pm

The war is carried out in the names of the people of the United States and South Vietnam, but without our consent.

But he gives a free pass to NORTH Vietnam. Filthy traitorous scum.

Unfortunately, Clinton's treason during the same period didn't keep him from getting elected.

4 hillbilly geek  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:47:39pm

heh! scroll down the kerry "goldigger" graphic on the linked page above...

5 dc  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:47:51pm

God, I have a scary feeling this loser might actually get elected President...

Please, somebody hold my hand and tell its all going to be alright!

6 Jimmy2  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:48:53pm

Kerry = Traitor

7 foreign devil  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:48:59pm

This reminds me of that infamous Oslo Peace Accords (Part Deux) charade a few months back where non-designated former representatives of the Israeli Government and other ne'er-do-wells banded together to try to force a bogus 'agreement in principle' on Israel which would have led to a 'camel's nose inside the tent' of Israeli sovereignty. Kerry should have been court-martialled for this or tried for treason under that law the US has (whose designation escapes me right now). Disgraceful, even treasonous behavior!

8 Q  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:51:07pm

dc:

Please, somebody hold my hand and tell its all going to be alright!

Not unless Boy George gets his shit together. If not: we will face a choice between two fucked-up candidates, albeit each one in his own manner.

9 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:51:29pm

Drudgereport has (without a link)
OFFICIAL KERRY WEBSITE RIDDLED WITH OBSCENITIES

Now I guess I'll have to go look at Kerry's internet porno site.

10 El Cid  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:52:56pm

Replace names and you've just seen the Peace Treaty with islam

11 Mark Holland  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:57:56pm

No echoes of Neville Chaimberlain at all.Get off his case, he wasn't stupid. He knew war was inevitable at Munich and when he came home he kick started Spitfire and Hurricain production and was desperate to get home chain radar activated (which Churchill for one had not been keen on). Chamberlain was so not an appeaser he actually declared war you know.

12 DinQuebec  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 2:58:06pm

Are we sure that John Kerry isn't from France?...if he wins the election, what will the terms of surrender to the Islamic entity say?...

13 Doug in VA  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:02:10pm

#11 Mark Holland - Then why did he get off the plane saying there would be peace in our time? Why would he lie like that? Neither interpretation (lieing or not knowing) is very complementary.

14 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:02:41pm

What a load of bollocks.

The Republicans' peace treaty in 1973: "shit, we fucked up really bad here, so let's make a lot of agreements we know the communists won't keep, give up, get out and leave 'em to it".

Read it and weep.

15 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:02:50pm

Official Traitor John F*cking Kerry for President Weblog.

The right-wing is attempting to silence Howard Stern. As soon as Stern began telling his audience not to back GW, Stern was yanked from six Clear Channel stations. Clear Channel has many ties,including financial support, to the Bush Administration. The right-wing is also attempting to persuade television stations not to air ads by moveon.org that criticize Bush. The left needs to express outrage over this type of censorship
AH, yes, the lovely Ann Coulter

The Anorexic Afghan of the barking right...

You know, I always thought, for as much vehemence as she went at Bill Clinton with. she probably deep down wanted to do the nasty with him...

It's a love/hate kinda thing, you know...

Rush and Hannity will do their usual pandering to the VRWC...

Haven't found any obscenity, and I had to stop looking before I went blind.

16 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:04:12pm

Echoes of Neville Chamberlain?

Charles, you are being far too kind; even Chamberlain wouldn't have accepted an obscenity like that. He was, we should recall, the PM that declared war on Germany. I could never see John Effin' Kerry doing that.

they will enter discussions to secure the release of all American prisoners, including pilots captured while bombing North Vietnam.

WTF??? Was there some point in these "negotiations" where the NVA could keep them prisoner permanently? I'm surprised Sen. McCain hasn't punched Sen. Heinz-Kerry square in the face.

17 Camel Prophet  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:04:42pm

OT:
Constitutional deal reached in Iraq. Group veto power will make the country an ethnic-federation, within which the oil rich Shiite regions will be under Iran/Hizbollah influence:

[Link: www.rferl.org...]

18 RightIsRight  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:05:23pm

#11

Chamberlain, the man who made 'appeasement' famous,


Chamberlain left Munich with a declaration signed by Hitler that assured peace. The prime minister returned home happy, believing that he had achieved 'peace with honour. I believe it is peace in our time'.

Those quotes are from the bastion of right wing ideology, the BBC

[Link: www.bbc.co.uk...]

19 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:07:26pm

Whoopsie.

I forgot the [sarcasm] tags on the Chamberlain bit...

20 Mark Holland  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:08:53pm

#13 Doug in VA

Do you think Kennedy was telling the public everything he knew at the time of the Cuban missile crisis? Those Soviets subs steaming south past Bermuda for instance? I expect/hope Bush and Blair know more about what's going on in the Pakistan tribal areas than we do too.

21 Jheka  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:09:39pm

Geneva Accords, Version 1.0 .

22 Lively  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:14:41pm

#15 Ed the Weather Moran: from your link

I can't wait until the liberal radio network comes on line. We need alternative news sources, not the corporate media or biased right-wing hate speech.

So the media is really not liberal they're "corporate" media. lol.

23 norar  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:22:59pm

Can it be that this (in)famous action was an inspiration for 'Geneva Accord' a$$es to act on behalf of the country without actually any credentials to represent the people of the country.

24 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:23:27pm
I can't wait until the liberal radio network comes on line.

And goes bankrupt and dies an ignominious death within weeks of the election. LOL!

They've got (the taxpayer-funded) NPR, why the hell do they need another radio outlet??? Insufferably arrogant sniveling crybabies.

25 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:26:52pm

Some choice January 1973 surrender quotes from that noble old Republican, Richard Nixon:

Throughout the years of negotiations, we have insisted on peace with honor. In my addresses to the Nation from this room of January 25 and May 8, [1972] I set forth the goals that we considered essential for peace with honor.


In the settlement that has now been agreed to, all the conditions that I laid down then have been met. A cease-fire, internationally supervised, will begin at 7 p.m., this Saturday, January 27, Washington time. Within 60 days from this Saturday, all Americans held prisoners of war throughout Indochina will be released. There will be the fullest possible accounting for all of those who are missing in action.
The people of South Vietnam have been guaranteed the right to determine their own future, without outside interference.
We must recognize that ending the war is only the first step toward building the peace. All parties must now see to it that this is a peace that lasts, and also a peace that heals, and a peace that not only ends the war in Southeast Asia, but contributes to the prospects of peace in the whole world.
First, to the people and Government of South Vietnam: By your courage, by your sacrifice, you have won the precious right to determine your own future and you have developed the strength to defend that right. We look forward to working with you in the future, friends in peace as we have been allies in war.

History sucks, doesn't it?

26 Rusty Shackleford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:27:06pm

OT- Richard Perle is on C-Span right now.

Also, Victor David Hanson had a 3 hour call-in interview on C-Span 2 which will be replayed at 12:00 EST. It was awesome!

27 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:30:20pm

#25 pond

"Noble" and "Nixon" are not words I'd ever expect to see in the same sentence.

:^P

28 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:31:06pm

Nixon gave us wage and price controls. He was hardly a conservative.

Of course, with Watergate going on, he was focused elsewhere.

You know that "What did the President know, and when did he know it?" was said by Senator Baker, a Republican from Tennessee. When one of their own was revealed to be corrupt, the Republicans rejected him.

Of course, when their President encouraged people to offer perjured testimony to a Grand Jury, and himself committed perjury, the dhimmicraps rallied around their leader.


Moral of this story, there are corrupt politicians of every party, its just that the democraps don't seem to have a problem with it.

29 norar  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:31:22pm

#22 Lively

So the media is really not liberal they're "corporate" media. lol.

Yeh, "corporate" is all the rage in new LLL lexicon. It looks that since the "imperialistic/capitalistic" was getting stale, LLL are in need of new labels for the old "sins". And it easier to change labels that the whole of rhetorics, since Soviet Propaganda Committee does not work anymore.

30 mpax  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:31:27pm

Kerry's Foreign Policy Comments

This collection of rather random policy statements would lead one to believe that Kerry has no coherent policy, and and isn't likely to develop one any time soon. His track record doesn't inspire confidence along those lines. I guess he waits for the poll then decides what to say. What he actually does might be something else again.

31 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:34:17pm

#14 pond

The Republicans' peace treaty in 1973:

..ending the war the democrats initiated and then abandoned any strategy that would have given the US military victory. Nixon promised to bring the boys home in his 68', but this took another 4 years to actually see motion. I would recommend reading up on Operations Linebacker I and II.

Operation Linebacker

LBJ would not allow air strikes against vital installations and micro-managed the military actions from 10,000 miles away--- sort of a reminds me of other failures in history, but the Vietnam affair began with Kennedy/LBJ and was passed onto Nixon to find an "end with honor" (which it is was not).

32 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:39:01pm

Ed Moran, the LGF Weatherman

"Peace with Honor" has always had the same connotation as "Peace in Our Time" has it not?

33 Doug in VA  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:40:20pm

#20 Mark - I don't see any parallel between Chamberlain in 1938 and JFK in 1962 as far as public statements about their impending crises. JFK didn't know about the outcome, and didn't give bland assurances everything was OK, unlike Chamberlain. Either Chamberlain was terribly naive or, as you aver, knowingly lied to his public. Not germaine to this thread, but that's the way I see it.

As I posted in the previous Kerry thread, his position on the POWs as stated here and in his congressional testamony is indefensible.

34 Jakester  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:41:01pm
In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.


Yeah, since when didwe declare war solely on the basis of any of those ism's. I never remember us declaring wa because the Pentagon doesn't like aristrocrats or women or someone's color. Yeah, we declared war on the Japanes cause we hated orientals or Germany cause we hated bourgeiosie Nordics. What braindead, leftist moron came up with that line? KERRY!

35 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:42:39pm

Pond,

History sucks, doesn't it?

36 J.D.  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:42:49pm

Perle on C-Span talking about PNAC. He just finished calling Bandar a liar.

37 emo  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:43:08pm

#20

JFK really jammed one up Nixon over Cuba in the 1960 election, repeatedly asking why no measures had been taken against Castro - and this is after Kennedy had been given an official briefing by the State Department and the CIA about the planned operation (this is fully documented as most of the relevant files have been declassified). He knew Nixon couldn't go public with it.

The moral being - never let national security get in the way of a good photo opportunity, whether you're waving a piece of paper, trying to make Nixon look more shifty than normal, or throwing other people's medals away.

38 Jakester  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:43:32pm

To #14 pond 3/7/2004 05:02PM PST
Yes, that treaty was not the high point. But if we stuck with our support of South Vietnam, they could have survived. It was done at a time of massive, broad opposition to the war, where few were going to bat for our side or the GVN's.

39 emo  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:44:24pm

#37 Oops - I should have mentioned I was referring to the 'Bay of Pigs' incident.

40 Spiny Norman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:47:31pm

pond,

Which American political party was in control of Congress and halted ALL assistance to South Vietnam, thus dooming them to their grisly fate?

I'll give you a hint, it wasn't the GOP.

41 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:48:56pm

I could be wrong, but I think pondscum is gone.

42 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:49:49pm

The Iraqi people will fare as well with a President Kerry as did the South Vietnamese. The American people will fare just as poorly.
Kerry is a motherfucking communist. There is no question about it. He's a communist, who could easily become the chief executive of the land. We are so fucking doomed. The USSR won the cold war after all...they melted away to fight another day without having to face us decisively with their inferior weapons and tactics; just like Iraq.
John F Kerry is a communist and always has been. He's the ultimate sleeper cell. He's a communist out loud, in the open, more left wing than Ted Kennedy, for decades and decades trying to undermine our security and readiness. He's a plant. I'd rather see President Hillary than President Kerry. I really would.

43 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:53:49pm

evariste,

Whoa, been keeping that pent up for a while? :P
All is not lost, the more we hear from this twit, the less likely his chances of success. I think Kerry is toast.

44 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:57:01pm

Buckeye 31,

Yeah, the money is in the last paragraph of your link. Lots more bombing, no victory. Great strategy!

So what is the Republican story anyway? LBJ fucked up, and Nixon saved us by getting us out? Or the left just didn't let us drop enough bombs? You get both stories here. LOL!

45 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:58:58pm
I'd rather see President Hillary than President Kerry. I really would.


Hard to pick, both seem to be hardcore socialists, perhaps Marxists (althogh they haven't let that stop them in pursuit of lucre ( Why are so many of America's Marxists rich? (Kennedy, Turner, Kerry, et al)). I recall hearing somewhere (anybody w/ hi-speed ISP wanna Google) that Hillary wrote an academic paper that compared the institution of marriage to slavery. Bill Clinton was left-leaning, but he wasn't that ideological, he adjusted as need be to stay in power and catch the odd knobber when the opportunity arose.


Why that woman stuck with that man is obvious, he was her ticket to power. I don't know, but I doubt they even live together. I suspect the only reason she doesn't divorce him is she figures he'll come in handy for the 2008 or 2012 campaign.

46 Camel Prophet  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 3:59:18pm

OT:

The head of the OPEC oil cartel's Arab Petroleum Investment Corporation says that oil supplies are increasing. So why the recent price spike? Saudi Arabia engineered OPEC production cuts in order to protest the cultural union between Ayatoilet-Iran and Shiite-Iraq, which challenges Sunni supremacy in the area.
[Link: www.dailystar.com.lb...]

Q: What is the assessment about oil price movements and their impact on energy sector investment?

A: During the 2004-2005 period, oil prices will be under pressure. But anything significantly below OPEC’s preferred band of $23-$24 a barrel (still much higher than the 1990s average of $18.9 a barrel) would be unsustainable. Reliance on OPEC crude will go down as non-OPEC supply growth causes a rise in global oil inventories. In the long term (2005 onwards), market conditions will be more positive, and oil prices will be pushed higher. Growth in non-OPEC supply will most likely start to slow down, thereby stabilizing OPEC’s market share.
---
See following story of US pressure on oil-free Yemen, to deal with a terrorist cleric. Note: the State Department has never issued a single criticism of a Wahabi cleric, notwithstanding their serial incitement of genocide against Americans, Russians, Israelis, Serbs, Hindus, Christians, and Jews. In December 2001, they produced a videotape captured in Afghanistan, in which prominent Sheik al-Baraak warmly praised the 9-11 murderers, in the presence of Osama bin Laden. Al-Baraak remains a respected member of the Wahabi hierarchy.

[Link: yementimes.com...]

ARABS ARE THIEVES; THEY HAVE OUR OIL AND POLITICIANS.

47 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:00:21pm
I'd rather see President Hillary than President Kerry. I really would.


Hard to pick, both seem to be hardcore socialists, perhaps Marxists (althogh they haven't let that stop them in pursuit of lucre ( Why are so many of America's Marxists rich? (Kennedy, Turner, Kerry, et al)). I recall hearing somewhere (anybody w/ hi-speed ISP wanna Google) that Hillary wrote an academic paper that compared the institution of marriage to slavery. Bill Clinton was left-leaning, but he wasn't that ideological, he adjusted as need be to stay in power and catch the odd knobber when the opportunity arose.


Why that woman stuck with that man is obvious, he was her ticket to power. I don't know, but I doubt they even live together. I suspect the only reason she doesn't divorce him is she figures he'll come in handy for the 2008 or 2012 campaign.

48 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:01:47pm

Cool, Ed Moran in stereo.

49 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:02:33pm

I didn't click "post" twice, honest, I didn't.

50 thinkingmom  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:03:00pm

RIP Ford,
Thanks. Evariste had me scared for a minute...:/

51 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:04:03pm

#50 thinkingmom:
Aw, don't let evariste scare you, he's a sweetie!

52 Right Brain  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:05:45pm

"joy of independence"

One has to pause at this phrase, or choke with disbelief. What does he think Communism was if not the lack of independence, the elimination of the individual displaced with a worship of the state. More and more I realize he switched sides in Vietnam, this statement and others that the US military "should be put under the authority of the United Nations" indicate his desire for the other side to win. His reflex vote against each weapon program that came along since shows him to be a liberal hack of the first order, a "globalist" who imagines the US is the source of evil in the world rather than those who confront it. I almost feel sorry for the Democrats, how can they get behind this guy?

On the other hand I have to tip my hat to their strategy thus far: emphasize Kerry's 3 1/2 months in Vietnam and ridicule Bush for mentioning his response to 9/11. Clearly this was all planned and well staged. Its gonna get ugly out there.

53 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:05:47pm

Ed Moran-you're right, I guess. You too, RIP Ford. I just got agitated for a minute, I feel like I'm in a bad movie with this Kerry stuff that keeps coming out. How could this be the cream of the crop of the party that claims the allegiance of half of the country?
Sigh.

54 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:07:27pm

#50 thinkingmom

No worries. evariste is a good guy and just a little pissed off, if you could not tell.

55 Jean Kirkpatrick for President  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:09:32pm

Well, the French looking John F Kerry, really is a cheese eating surrender monkey just as he appears to be.

56 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:09:46pm
So what is the Republican story anyway? LBJ fucked up, and Nixon saved us by getting us out? Or the left just didn't let us drop enough bombs? You get both stories here. LOL!


I don't see how the two stories are contradictory, Pondscum.


The dhimmicraps didn't prosecute the war when they were in office, and by the time Nixon came to power, the will of the American people to commit resources to a conflict that it didn't appear the US was committed to winning waning.

BTW, dipwad, do you really think that if we follow the JF-ingK staretegy of calling off the WoT, and allow the more nuanced French determine our foreign policy, the remnants of al Qaeda will be so impressed they won't want to kill us, and Iran will decide they don't want to sponsor terrorism or develop nuclear weapons anymore?

57 SwampWoman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:10:00pm

Heh. I was in a seminar last week with assorted community do-gooders (social workers and such) who were chattering away about their disappointment that Howard Dean was defeated, and talking about Kerry, and my opinion was solicited. I offered up my opinion that, as a veteran, I would never vote for that lyin' traitorous piece of shit Kerry and in my opinion, he should be taken out and shot.

It put a damper on the conversation, that's for sure. I think some of them thought I might be adding them to my list.

58 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:10:57pm

evariste,

If it makes you feel any better, I agree completely. It's frustrating as all hell, but, I think the voters will get tired of his antics very quickly.

59 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:13:05pm
The dhimmicraps didn't prosecute the war when they were in office

So how exactly would you have "prosecuted the war?"

60 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:13:46pm

There is humor in the governor's defense of JF-ingK

Kerry's supporters also sought to fend off complaints that his politics are far left of mainstream America.

Giuliani was among those issuing that charge Sunday, telling NBC that a vote for Kerry would be "a vote for the most liberal member of the United States Senate."

Ed Rendell, Democratic governor of Pennsylvania, reacted angrily to those accusations on CBS's "Face the Nation."

"How dare they say that John Kerry is liberal when they have run up the biggest deficit in the history of this country?" Rendell said.

"How dare they say things like that when John Kerry supported them on a number of different things and a lot of Democratic senators didn't. If I were John Kerry, my head would be spinning."

Of course, I have issues about people making a stink about running a deficit during war-time and an economic downturn that started on Clinton's watch.

61 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:13:46pm

SwampWoman,

LOL

62 Tasty Beverage  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:13:52pm

#53

Don't worry, your post #42 summed up exactly how I feel too and neither one of us are Republicans. "Angry Independents" as a voting bloc? Let's hope so. I possess a visceral hatred for everything this guy represents, and did so long before he entered the presidential race. I can't listen to his pompous voice, struggling to mask that obnoxious accent (which occasionally slips through), without wanting to retch. I'm going to have to toughen up for this ride.

63 Geepers  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:14:39pm

SwampWoman (#56),

I offered up my opinion that, as a veteran, I would never vote for that lyin' traitorous piece of shit Kerry and in my opinion, he should be taken out and shot.

I like your style.

64 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:15:43pm

The right way to fight a war is to fight to win, not to fight for a stalemate.

If Kennedy and Johnson weren't committed to victory, they never should have gotten involved.

Pray tell, Pondscum, about your military expertise?

65 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:17:18pm
If Kennedy and Johnson weren't committed to victory, they never should have gotten involved.

But let's give Nixon a free pass, eh?

66 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:18:03pm

Drudge has linked the Kerry web page obscenity story now.


A sampling of web pages featured on Kerry's official site reveal:

"Bush f**ked up Afghanistan... Did I expect George Bush to f**k it up as badly as he did... cutting all your f**king legs off at the knees... Where the f**k is he?... scare the living s**t out of me... He has a pig-in-s**t grin on his face, he wanted to get into the s**t... doesn’t play s**t in my book..."

67 andrew  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:18:47pm

Even the GOP didn't give Nixon a free pass, Pondscum.

68 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:19:59pm

Pond


Are you intentionally stupid? Kennedy and Johnson started it. As I said before, oh mental midget Marxist, public support for winning the war was gone by the time Nixon was elected.

69 Tasty Beverage  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:20:11pm

Oops #62 was for #53 evariste

70 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:20:41pm

Thanks cba, RIP Ford, Tasty Beverage.
Tasty B, sucks that Illinois' electoral votes are almost certainly going to Kerry no matter what, doesn't it? I'll still vote but I'm disheartened by how little my vote matters in a reliably blue state. It's all Cook county's fault, too; the rest of the state's red. Feh.

72 thinkingmom  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:24:17pm

Thanks for the reassurances, guys. I'm going to keep telling myself that others will see that Kerry is the evidence that the Democratic party has gone completely over the edge into stark, raving moonbattery behind a boring, botoxed facade.

73 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:24:22pm
74 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:24:23pm

No worries, we all have our days.
LGF overload.

75 cba, evariste's piratical godmother  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:24:25pm

#70 evariste:
Hey, gotta watch out for my piratical godson, don't I?

76 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:26:44pm

Ed,

Gee, thanks for not answering the question: So how exactly would you have "prosecuted the war?"

77 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:27:55pm

#44 pond

From your reply I can see your not a very astute student of history.

When LBJ refused to let the USAF bomb fuel, munition centers and other strategic targets, and resupply routes outside of Vietanm, between 66-68', he compromised quite alot. LBJ IMHO was a lunatic.
LBJ not o

Even members of his own staff were concerned about his mental health.

To put into context for you, the left, your mentors apparently, killed alot of people unneccessarily, but than again that is the lefts trademark.

78 SwampWoman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:28:07pm

#73 Iron Fist

'Cept I generally use a knife for face-to-face killing.

I'm partial to aluminum baseball bats, myself.

79 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:28:42pm

From JF-ing K's own web site: Exporting American manufacturing jobs, and the "F" word.

For years, he'd ridden foreign motorcycles a Triumph Bonneville back during his Navy days; later a Ducati; and then his most recent bike, a two-year-old BMW R1200 but now John Kerry was going American, and going whole hog.

Nice to know he's finally bought an American bike (of course, it was 2002 and he probably knew he was running for President)

Noting my physical discomfort beside him in the backseat, Wade asks Kerry, "Sir, have you ever considered getting a bigger car?" Kerry shoots back, "No, but I have thought about cutting all your fucking legs off at the knees."


I have an idea, lets elect him President!

80 mississippiview  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:30:58pm

Hi Guys,
I see some of you are really getting down with all the hoopla about the possibility of a President John Kerry in the November election. I understand your feelings but it "ain't over till it's over." So pull your chins up off the floor. Just believe in the american people. Kerry is not going to be able to cover his long record of waffling on issues neither will his 3 purple hearts in 3 months carry him through till the end. This guy is a phony. I know it. You know it. Even the democrats know it. They are not happy with the guy either. Just give it time to sink in with the people. Things are going to be all right. The guy is an onion. He will be revealed to have no inner core. Just watch the layers come off one layer at a time.

81 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:32:47pm

#45 Ed Moran

I don't know, but I doubt they even live together. I suspect the only reason she doesn't divorce him is she figures he'll come in handy for the 2008 or 2012 campaign.

Hillary is... shall we say not into her husband in alot of ways. I think also that as husband and wife cannot testify against each other has something to do with it.

82 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:33:47pm

If Johnson had been serious about winning and not just not losing, he would have been honest with the American people about what was required, would have used the required amount of troops earlier, and would have taken the war to the North. Bombing their cities, maybe even raids into NV territory to intercept supplies to the VC at the source.


If that was too much to ask the American people for, he shouldn't have ever started it.


I did answer your question before, BTW, you're just too stupid or too trollish to see it. Either way, next moronic question from you will be met with a hearty GAZE.

83 okimutt  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:34:25pm

#34- Jakester- that paragraph jumped out at me but

for a different reason. That is pure political correctness

boilerplate back before it had a name. The good news

is that these swine are getting old and will soon will

only be able to rabble rouse in nursing homes.

84 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:34:37pm
85 Lively  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:36:17pm

OT. Fox is currently running a teaser headline that says, "Blasts Rock Baghdad "Green Line". "

I thought now everyone is copying Israel.

86 Christ Killer  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:36:24pm

Notice no mention of religion.

In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.

87 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:39:41pm

mississippiview,

An onion? How fitting. Thanks.

88 Buckeye Abroad  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:41:51pm

#86

G A z e

89 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:41:53pm

Christ Killer

Do you think you could come up with a more inflamatory nic? :P

90 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:42:02pm
91 okimutt  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:42:04pm

#86- You have to realize that gummint is the only

religion. Now when can I get some of that gummint

cheese I keep hearing about?

92 mississippiview  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:48:11pm

The democrats chose Kerry not because they wanted him to be president but because they thought he could win. Kind of like a woman who marries a man she doesn't want but marries him because she thinks he is going to be the easiest to live with. Or Kinda like a man who marries a woman because he thinks she will be easier to live with. In other words they did not choose him for the right reason. Always go with your heart never your head. Your head lies to you. Your heart is always right. Never go for the safe bet. It's for the suckers.

93 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:49:00pm
Bombing their cities, maybe even raids into NV territory to intercept supplies to the VC at the source.

This is more or less what Nixon did. It failed. Talk about killing people needlessly!

One day America will put LBJ and Nixon both to bed. It ain't happening now, though. This will be an interesting election!

94 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:49:57pm

Buckeye Abroad, RIP Ford, Iron Fist:
So I'm not the only one who found the nick offensive...

I'm not quite sure what point it was trying to make in its post.

95 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:51:29pm

I wonder if 86 is Pondscum or a fellow traveller, who would much rather have us re-do the Mel Gibson thread arguments than talk about the real and present danger of a communist in socialists clothing running for President.

To quote his quote, however In rejecting the war we also reject all forms of racism and discrimination against people based on color, class, sex, national origin, and ethnic grouping which form the basis of the war policies, past and present, of the United States government.

I suppose JF-ingK was referring to World War I, or was it World War II. And golly, we all know that if the Koreans had been white people we wouldn't have gotten our panties in a wad over the invasion. No sir, we just got into the middle of a war between communists and non-communists of the same ethnic group just so we'd have an excuse to drop some napalm on the gooks.


(That is why we didn't do anything when the Soviets blockaded Berlin, such as an airlift or anything, which is why Berlin has been the undivided capital of Communist East Germany for almost fifty years)

96 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 4:56:45pm

Looks like ole Offensive Nick was a hit-and-run poster.

97 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:01:44pm

#94 cba

I'm not quite sure what point it was trying to make in its post.

Me too.

98 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:03:30pm

#75 cba-damn skippy!
You'll be pleased to know that I am soon to own a Vaporbrothers; I will no longer be smoking anything at all! Except crack.
Vaporbrothers

99 Old Guy  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:03:41pm

#76--I believe the US fought a war of attrition. Land they captured, they left to the Vietnamese and the VC continued to re-capture it. In addition, they failed to fully attack North Vietnam early on. For a comparison, look at Korea. Had MacArthur been allowed to go forward we might not have North Korea as it is today.
Perhaps we counted on the South Vietnamese army to do much more--after all were we really in a war or a police action? In any case, it was badly managed and self-defeating.
JFKennedy started the snowball down the hill--however, I wonder if you really know why???

100 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:05:05pm

I'm not sure what "Christ Killer" wanted either. OK, so we notice, no mention of religion. So? And?

101 ralph  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:06:08pm

Oh the elderly schoolgirl's heart is all a flutter:

He not only reads poetry — "I love Keats, Yeats, Shelley and Kipling" — he writes it. "I remember flying once; I was looking out at the desert and I wrote a poem about the barren desolation of the desert," he said. "I wrote a poem once about a great encounter I had with a deer early in the morning that was very moving." (Sometimes he shoots deer, sometimes he elegizes them.)


[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

102 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:06:58pm

93 Assmunch


Nixon bombed the north just enough to drive them back to the negotiating table in Paris. He didn't have popular support at that late date to win the war, and as mentioned, when he got caught doing something illegal, he didn't have the luxury of a democrap party that would obstruct every effort to bring him to justice ala Clinton, so he wasn't devoting 100% of his efforts.


He achieved exactly what he set out to do.


If Johnson had let the North know he was serious about doing what it takes to win, the war would have ended quickly. (Nonstop bombing of Hanoi and Haiphong until the North stopped supporting its puppet army in the South).

OK, I should have GAZED. I promise, no more feeding the brain-dead communist troll.

103 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:11:35pm
Perhaps we counted on the South Vietnamese army to do much more--after all were we really in a war or a police action? In any case, it was badly managed and self-defeating.

Truer words were never spoken.

JFKennedy started the snowball down the hill--however, I wonder if you really know why???

Um, yeah, I think so. Freedom for Vietnam is the noblest of causes. But bombs, in that situation, just didn't do the job.

The sooner America settles on that verdict, the better, for all.

104 Iron Fist[deleted]  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:12:33pm
105 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:13:14pm

I'm guessing Pondscum is a 16 to 24 year old standard LLL who heard how evil America was in his/her/it's (probably either him or it) high school history class from his/its standard issue LLL teacher, who also told stories of how romantic and exciting the antiwar movement was.


Standard young A.N.S.W.E.R material.

106 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:16:11pm

Ok, lets suppose Pondscum catches a venereal disease. His doctor prescribes a certain antibiotic, to be taken four times a day for ten days.


Pondscum takes it once a day, and stops at four days because he still has a yellow discharge from his unit and painful urination.

He draws the only logical conclusion: antibiotics are useless against venereal disease.

107 gymnast  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:18:00pm

#46, Camel Prophet. "oil free Yemen" In 2002 Yemeni oil production was approx. 500,000 BPD and climbing.

108 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:19:20pm

Re the selfless Republicans putting nation before Nixon: only a third of Republican House judiciary committee members voted for impeachment in 1974.

Then Nixon skedaddled before he had to face the Senate, and the people behind it.

Oh yeah, Nixon got a lot at that Paris table, didn't he? Loads of dead civilians in north Vietnamese cities in exchange for empty promises. What a clever man!

109 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:21:07pm

#98 evariste:

You'll be pleased to know that I am soon to own a Vaporbrothers

I'm very happy for you. I think. Between all the different substances you imbibe, I don't know how you function at all! You must have one heck of a constitution. :-)

#104 Iron Fist:
Ooo, you just called me "hon"! What a relief--I'd hate to have you mad at me...

And now I really MUST drag myself away. I mock trolls who say they're leaving and then don't, but I do it myself. All.The.Time.

"My name is cba and I'm an LGFaholic."

110 Geepers  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:22:49pm

Why do I get the feeling that if Nixon was a Democrat he would be without sin.

111 RIP Ford  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:23:23pm

cba

"My name is cba and I'm an LGFaholic."

The first step is acknowledging you have a problem.
The second step is ignoring the problem.

:P

112 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:23:40pm

#106 Ed Moran; that's even apter when you realize that by his actions he's simultaneously strengthening the bacterial population and increasing its immunity to antibiotics. I'll skip the obvious "aid and comfort to the enemy" analogy by stating it briefly in this self-referential sentence, which is now coming to an end.

113 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:25:26pm

#111 RIP Ford:

The first step is acknowledging you have a problem.
The second step is ignoring the problem.

Yesss!!! Thank you, fellow addict! That's the kind of advice I need.

114 Geepers  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:27:02pm

evariste

that's even apter

er, um, Apter? No such animal. More apt. :-)

115 Old Guy  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:28:04pm

Just so there's no confusion. I agree 100% with Ed Moran. We failed to prosecute the war to the fullest extent.

Perhaps Kennedy's entrance to Vietnam was for "freedom for the people of Vietnam", however, I was in DC at the time, and rumors had it that Cardinal Mindszenty was in contact with the President and he was concerned about the country falling into the hands of the communists. Like I said, rumors.

116 AddictedLizardoid  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:28:55pm

Well, yes, 82 had an offensive nick, but at least their post made a point. Kerry makes absolutely zero mention of religion in terms of discrimination in his "treaty." Of course, this is hardly a surprise being as he's a LLL donkey and any mention of religion would have to kiss up to the RoPMA, which he'd have probably gotten in "trouble" for.

117 gymnast  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:29:50pm

Pond, your second hand ignorance is your best attribute. What do you consider to be your other good qualities?

118 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:34:11pm

#109 cba, hey! Insert witty retort here. Besides, I cut out caffeine and nicotine; alcohol and thc are my only indulgences these days.
#111 RIP Ford,

The first step is acknowledging you have a problem.
The second step is ignoring the problem.

The second step is rushing to lgf to post about it!
#114 Geepers-Well, I knew that; I just thought it would be uniquer to say apter. ;-)

119 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:34:49pm

heh, another one. ok, old guy, how would you have prosecuted the war "to the fullest extent"?

Pond, your second hand ignorance is your best attribute. What do you consider to be your other good qualities?

how about a perverse taste for lgf?

or other curmudgeonly british warmongering tendencies?

hooray, i'm a 16-24 year old marxist! oh joy!

120 Athos  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:35:52pm

#106 Ed Moran

Very apt analogy for the situation, and pondscum.

Kudos.

121 cba  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:36:17pm

#118 evariste:
LOL! Then LOL and LOL again.

G'night. And this time I mean it. Really. Honestly. For sure.

Although I'll check in again in the morning, of course!

122 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:37:17pm
hooray, i'm a 16-24 year old marxist! oh joy!

Mentally, at least.

123 Ed Moran: Abu So mUch for LGF Humor is miBiatch  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:38:22pm

Almost like VFI, posting with a new nic...

124 Athos  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:38:46pm

It still really baffles me that even with the Kerry led "renaissance" of the Vietnam War - they can't get history right.

Or maybe it's still too recent to be totally revised?

125 Ed Moran:Abu anyone seen "Pond" and VFI together?  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:42:59pm

Bed time.

Ma&ntildeana people, and Pondscum- Channelling VFI

126 Old Guy  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:44:43pm

Pond,

Aristotle you are not!! The answer to your repeated question is in these posts. Please read them and then---FOAD!

127 evariste  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:46:01pm

'Night Ed. FWIW I think you might be onto something.

128 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:49:22pm

hmm, squirmish, are ya, old guy? was iron fist's solution the only one? he is on to something!

I ask you how you would have won in Vietnam. The "we didn't hit hard enough" argument is contradicted by all the evidence, all the bombs, all the stories. But, hey, FOAD!

129 hans ze beeman  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:53:08pm

A great site with Kerry flip-floppery quotations is here, compiled by Alan Dowd (obviously no relative of Maureen "fantasy world" Dowd). Excerpts (Kerry quotations):

The threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real, but…it is not new. The Iraqi regime's record over the decade leaves little doubt that Saddam Hussein wants to retain his arsenal of weapons of mass destruction and to expand it to include nuclear weapons.
We have evidence, collected by United Nations inspectors during those inspections that Saddam Hussein has permitted them to make, that despite his pledges at the conclusion of the war that no further work would be done in these weapons of mass destruction programs, and that all prior work and weapons that resulted from it would be destroyed, this work has continued illegally and covertly.
And that is the most legitimate justification for war—that in the post-September 11 world, the unrestrained threat of weapons of mass destruction in the hands of Saddam Hussein is unacceptable.
I believe the record of Saddam Hussein's ruthless, reckless breach of international values and standards of behavior, which is at the core of the cease-fire agreement, with no reach, no stretch, is cause enough for the world community to hold him accountable by use of force, if necessary.
130 Dirk Diggler  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:55:13pm
History sucks, doesn't it?

Why don't you acclimate yourself with history, pondscum.

...For reasons that escape historical justification, even after America’s military withdrawal the Left continued to try to bring down the incipient South Vietnamese democracy. Future White House aide Harold Ickes and others at "Project Pursestrings"—assisted at one point by an ambitious young Bill Clinton—worked to cut off all congressional funding intended to help the South Vietnamese defend themselves. The Indochina Peace Coalition, run by David Dellinger and headlined by Jane Fonda and Tom Hayden, coordinated closely with Hanoi throughout 1973 and 1974, and barnstormed across America’s campuses, rallying students to the supposed evils of the South Vietnamese government. Congressional allies repeatedly added amendments to spending bills to end U.S. support of Vietnamese anti-Communists, precluding even air strikes to help South Vietnamese soldiers under attack by North Vietnamese units that were assisted by Soviet-bloc forces.
Then in early 1975 the Watergate Congress dealt non-Communist Indochina the final blow. The new Congress icily resisted President Gerald Ford’s January request for additional military aid to South Vietnam and Cambodia. This appropriation would have provided the beleaguered Cambodian and South Vietnamese militaries with ammunition, spare parts, and tactical weapons needed to continue their own defense. Despite the fact that the 1973 Paris Peace Accords called specifically for "unlimited military replacement aid" for South Vietnam, by March the House Democratic Caucus voted overwhelmingly, 189-49, against any additional military assistance to Vietnam or Cambodia...
...As the shocked and demoralized South Vietnamese military sought to readjust its forces to cope with serious shortages, the newly refurbished North Vietnamese immediately launched a major offensive. Catching many units out of position, the North rolled down the countryside over a 55-day period. In the ensuing years I have interviewed South Vietnamese survivors of these battles, many of whom spent ten years and more in Communist concentration camps after the war. The litany is continuous: "I had no ammunition." "I was down to three artillery rounds per tube per day." "I had nothing to give my soldiers." "I had to turn off my radio because I could no longer bear to hear their calls for help."

This was incidentally the same South Vietnamese Army which repulsed the Vietcong/NVA "Easter Offensive" only three years earlier. History records that:

During the failed offensive, the North suffered an estimated 100,000 military casualties and lost half its tanks and artillery. Leader of the offensive, legendary General Vo Nguyen Giap, the victor at Dien Bien Phu, was then quietly ousted in favor of his deputy Gen. Van Tien Dung. 40,000 South Vietnamese soldiers died stopping the offensive, in the heaviest fighting of the entire war.
131 Old Guy  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 5:58:50pm

Pond,

You have removed all doubt!! You must be very young or a moron or both. In any case, you are definitely a TROLL!

I will not respond to you again, but I just want to add you have no idea what you are talking about when you say "contradicted by all the evidence". Where were you when the Vietnam War was taking place? I was in the Army--were you?? What the hell do you know about the "evidence"? Do you have any idea how this war was fought? About McNamara, the President? Where did you get your knowledge?

Ah, I am just wasting my time and effort and you are definitely not worth it!!

132 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 6:04:22pm

old guy 131

this is the reaganite argument - "if you weren't [aren't] there, you don't know"

on these grounds 90% or more of lgf's commentariat should be disqualified from all mideast debates

in other words, crap argument, dude!

133 gymnast  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 6:04:24pm

#119, Pond. Militarily, with the rules of engagement at the outermost limits of the rules of war. Hanoi would have been gone by early 1965, or we would have been gone before then. The Russians were using the VC and NVA to fight a proxy war for them. Kennedy chose to engage them and Johnson chose not loosing over victory as it was the most politically expedient path as he saw it. By the time Nixon came along, the situation was so screwed up that, with the opportunities presented to them by watergate the Soviet backed NVA only had to hold on while the anti war types a defeated congress of opportunists worked their magic. Kerry in 1971 was typical of the type of shitbird that had no idea of the character of his country. The SDS types were worse, they thought the "great socialist revolution" had begun. The US was never taken seriously again until 1991. If you have another question, raise your hand.

134 Old Guy  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 6:07:26pm

#133.

Dislike disagreeing with you but I think the Russians took President Reagan seriously.

135 pond  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 6:10:06pm
Kerry in 1971 was typical of the type of shitbird that had no idea of the character of his country. The SDS types were worse, they thought the "great socialist revolution" had begun. The US was never taken seriously again until 1991. If you have another question, raise your hand.

no hand raised! LOL!

136 gymnast  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 6:30:16pm

#134, Old Guy. Not at first, but they surely did by 1986 or so. Problem was that earlier, Carter convinced the Arabs and half the tin pot communists in South America that they could do anything they wanted with impunity. Result-Ortega, Khoumeni, Saddam, Arafat, Hekmatyar, OBL,ect. Panama didn't impress any of the Middle East types (their error) and Afganistan(80s vs the soviets) was done so stealthily that I have yet to see a good analysis of exactly how it was actually done done. Gulf War 1 sure put the hurt to the idea that a soviet client state could stand up to the US military and all the world did see. Clinton taught the world that if we didn't have boots on the ground, we couldn't really put the hurt on an enemy in an effective manner.

137 Bourgeois Reactionary  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 7:03:34pm

Vietnam in a nutshell:
Truman aided the French in Indochina to balance newly Communist China. The French were defeated in 1954 and negotiated a treaty. Eisenhower refused to accept the treaty and supported anti-Communist South Vietnam (~700 troops when Ike left office). Kennedy expanded the support to 16,000 troops. Johnson committed the US with the Gulf of Tonkin resolution 1964. LBJ did not fully prosecute the war, partly out of concern that China would intervene (just like Truman and Korea), partly politics. LBJ was more concerned about getting the 'Great Society' passed and withdrawing US support would have left him vulnerable to the question 'who lost Vietnam'.

The Viet Cong (PLF) were annihilated during Tet 1968; the NVA were crippled. General Giap thought that the war was lost. Giap heard the news reports saying what a great victory the North had won; the protests intensified because of the negative press; the NVA fought on believing they could outlast the USA.

1969 Nixon takes office begins Vietnamization, negotiations, then gradual withdrawal of US troops. 1970 NVA invades Cambodia then US counterattacks NVA invaders (military success / political failure).

'Winter Soldier' 1971.

Nixon's 1972 'Christmas' bombings brought the North back to the negotiating table and then Nixon agreed to the treaty (Jan 1973); the treaty promised support to the South Vietnamese. The Democratic Congress abandoned South Vietnam in Jun 1973. Nixon resigned in Aug 1974. The South fought until April 1975 but were doomed in the face of the Russian and Chinese - backed Communists.

138 piglet  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 7:30:51pm

Regarding the Vietnam War.

Reunification elections were to be held.
THe US and South Vietnam stopped them because
Ho Chi Minn would have won as he was the popular leader who had led much of the fight aginst the Japanese.

The French efforts to retake their former colony included releasing Japanese Imperial Soldiers to help the French fight the Viet Minn. Evil, no other word for it.

The French airforce base at Dien Bien Phu was defeated
by two years of careful work using old men pushing bicycles loaded with up to 500 pounds of shells to locations in the mountains around the airbase built in a valley. WW1 artilery pieces using this stockpiled ammunition then shelled the base. This victory is taught at West Point. I have been reluctant to discuss it here,
lest I give Arafat any ideas, but the battle shows just how dangerous letting the West bank and gaza stockpile
morters or rockets is.


[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The battle proper opened on March 13th, when much to the surprise of the French, it started with a massive artillery barrage. By the end of the first night 9,000 shells had fallen on the area and the Beatrice and Gabrielle positions had both fallen, albeit at huge cost to the attackers. The French responded by parachuting in reinforcements, but they were fired on by anti-aircraft guns, another surprise the Viet Minh had in store for them. Considering the vital need for air supply, this was a troubling development. The French also started using their fighter bombers against the artillery, but there were nowhere near enough to have any real effect considering how well they were hidden.
Realizing the importance of the air supply, the Viet Minh switched from their costly assaults to a siege mode, bombarding the airfields until both were eventually knocked out of action. In addition they started the process of digging long trenches towards the middle of the camp, covering their movements from direct fire, and allowing for a buildup and assault under cover. The first runway fell after a five day advance from the 18th to the 23rd. The last aircraft landed on the 28th on the second runway, but was destroyed in the process. The French responded with an offensive of their own on the 28th, attacking anti-aircraft positions. On the 31st the French recaptured two of the hilltop fortifications, but later had to evacuate them because of lack of reinforcements.
139 piglet  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 7:39:51pm

I've asked this before, but does anyone know of
an offer around 1946-1948 by Ho Chi Minn for the Jews to have a home (land) inside Vietnam?

140 Frank IBC  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 10:23:42pm

Liberals seem to have trouble with the concept of "proxy war", in general.

141 M. Simon  Sun, Mar 7, 2004 11:53:07pm

I was pretty much in favor of this sort of thing when it came out.

What turned me around was the violation by the commies of points 5,6, and 7.

What really destroyed it for me was that adherence to point 8 led to the Cambodian killing fields.

Now the difference between me and Kerry is that I have seen the error of my ways.

As much as I have issues with America my faith in the good will of our enemies has been totally destroyed.

I also learned a valuable lesson: there are worse things than war.

142 mississippiview  Mon, Mar 8, 2004 9:03:36am

Here is the question concerning this "Peace Treaty"

Who gave John Kerry and his associates to declare themselves as representives of WE THE PEOPLE of the United States of America? By what authority did he offer a peace treaty to a foreign country? Who elected these people to speak for the United States? What does the United States Constitution say about this? Who has the right to speak for WE THE PEOPLE of the United States? I mean who elected these guys? And if they were not elected by anyone why did they think they had the authority to speak and act for WE THE PEOPLE? Sounds like a total disregard for WE THE PEOPLE! Can anyone say TYRANNY!

143 energyforcapital  Thu, Mar 11, 2004 3:57:11pm

All that and the McGovern doctrine of unconditional surrender with no plan(s) for the security of our POW's

Sc*mf*ck then is still a sc*mf*ck now.

EFC


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