self-inflicted stab wounds to his abdomen and hammer wounds to his head

Er, why? Was he "sullied by a prostate exam?"

Umm ... yeah. Attack the victim, not the molester.

I don't know even know what to say about the gynecological exam.

... where he was treated for self-inflicted stab wounds to his abdomen and hammer wounds to his head.

Is this guy available for parties?

{sigh}

Wanker!

But... but... aren't all cultures equal??

Ah, the Religion of Peace. Mohammed made him do it.

In a February 2002 report by National Geographic News, Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, said the practice “goes across cultures and across religions.”

What other religion, besides Islam, supports "honor" killings?

Now, now... let's not judge other cultures too harshly. Everthing being relative, we have no right to assume we know 'right' and 'wrong'.

he was treated for self-inflicted stab wounds to his abdomen and hammer wounds to his head

Maybe he did the latter to take his mind off the pain of the former?

Bart! Why are you hitting yourself?
-Nelson

Don't you have religious freedom in the US ?

Close the borders now! No more immigration for Muslim contries.

Ah, the good law of sharia. Much superior to the man-made law in democratic countries.

You live here. Abide by our laws. I hope he is hung.

#6 litany_of_lies

Easy. Nowhere in the article is the word Islam mentioned. Hmmmm.

he was treated for self-inflicted stab wounds to his abdomen and hammer wounds to his head

Kills his wife and attacks his daughter. But he won't end his own sorry life, the coward.

the practice “goes across cultures and across religions.”

I think he was referring to Arab culture, Iranian culture, and Turkish culture, and Sunnism and Shi'aism.

You have to be pretty fucking sick to attack a 4 year old girl with a hammer. Does NYC have the death penalty?

what is most mystifing to my western mind~~~~ every time I hear one of these stories, the perp has allways killed his own family!!! the victims!!!

they never kill the scum sucking rapists!!!

WTF!!!!!????

OT

This is too good to be true. Arafat Said Preparing for Possible Death

Sounds like a great guy to knock back a beer with. Luckily, being a guy, I'd never have to deal with him from day to day.

The whole never having to worry about losing your temper Islamic deal for men is pretty appealing in a reptilian brain sort of way.

Women support Kerry, why?

Is it me, or do Muslims have the smallest penises on earth?

I posted this in the thread below, but it seems to belong here:
[Link: www.theglobeandmail.com...]

There is only one thing to say about a culture which situates its family honour between its womens' legs: their honour is woefully misplaced.

#8 [Engineer]

In a February 2002 report by National Geographic News, Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, said the practice “goes across cultures and across religions.”

True statement. This practice can be found in Turkey, Syria, Iraq, Egypt, Pakistan, Iran, Malaysia, etc., and is praticed by Sunnis, Shi'ites, Wahabists, etc.

Why do we allow immigration from these countries? I believe the immigration code sets different quotas for different countries. Why can't we set the quota to zero for Muslim countries?

#15 Jaffar

It sounds like he gave it the ol' college try. He had the right idea with the abdomen stabbing, but I have no idea where he was going with the hitting his head with a hammer thing. Three Stooges School of Anaesthesia?

{I can't believe I'm joking about this horror.}

#16 Frank IBC
Dammit. Beaten to the punchline again.

#26 ploome hineni

he hasn't even been charged with first degree murder!

Hmm. Hopefully he'll get what's coming to him in prison. I can't imagine the inmates would take too well to an Arab who bludgeoned his 4 year old daughter with a hammer for giving to the doctor...

#19 rumcrook

what is most mystifing to my western mind~~~~ every time I hear one of these stories, the perp has allways killed his own family!!! the victims!!!

they never kill the scum sucking rapists!!!

Was it even rape?

he attacked his wife and daughters after learning that his brother had molested his wife and his 22-year-old daughter, according to court documents.

Peltek is scheduled to be arraigned Wednesday before County Court Judge John J. Connell on two counts of murder: intentional murder and murder displaying “a depraved indifference to human life.”

It seems, Islam has, “a depraved indifference to human life.”

Why aren't we shutting down these mosques and deporting these people?

Oh yeah, I forgot, we've already been infiltrated and compromised.

#23 Darn Toot'n,

Is it me, or do Muslims have the smallest penises on earth?

I'd place my bet on the Muslims.

Is it me, or do Muslims have the smallest penises on earth?

Er... what the hell?

This is overtime, but it's in refernce to the Pat Tillman story and thread, and therefore can't be out of bounds:

At the NFL draft today, the Commissioner of the NFL and ALL staff wore black armbands and a pin with the "40" (Tillmans jersey number with the Cardinals). The commish paid tribute to Tillman, NOT so much for his NFL time, but as an American who answered the call to duty.
After his remariks, there was a "moment of silence" AFTER which the audience (at NYC's Madison Square Garden) chanted "USA", "USA" for so long they delayed the long awaited start of the draft.
I'm proud of my fellow NYC'ers. I'm proud of Pat Tillman. And I am proud of the USA.
Again, my sincere condolence's to the Tillman family.
and again, hokey that I know it sounds:

God Bless America.

#28 Thom™

LOL. Sometimes I find I have to have some dark gallows humor about stories like this, lest I lose my mind. I just wish he had been successful in his 'endeavour'

It's started here. M****cript.

Peltek and his family, which includes sons who are 18 and 17, came to the United States five years ago, he told investigators

Not right off the boat. Complete disregard for the laws of this great land.

I guess thats the difference between Islamic culture (and I thought the Turks weren't as extreme about it as the Arabs, although over one million Armenians killed for being Christian might beg to differ) and ours. If a female relative were sexually assaulted, after taking them to the doctor, I'd be thinking about punishing the perpetrator.

Islam is essentially a coward's religion. Instead of going after the criminal, who as a man might have stood a chance of kicking his ass, he attacked his wife and little girl.

Religion of Cowards

I hate the sea, but will sure as hell drive a boat full of as many displaced Ummahns as you load in it back to the original lands of minarets and misogyny. That, or truckloads across the Canadian border, since the Canadians want them. "Here's your map to the welfare offices, hoser. Enjoy, eh."

This is flat-out bullshit. Nowhere in my copy of the Constitution say that we have to bring in violent and hateful people to undermine our civilization.

#36 realwest

At the NFL draft today, the Commissioner of the NFL and ALL staff wore black armbands and a pin with the "40" (Tillmans jersey number with the Cardinals). The commish paid tribute to Tillman, NOT so much for his NFL time, but as an American who answered the call to duty.

It was a total shock in Phoenix. Our normally-flippant morning drive talk-show host Barry Young was very subdued and respectful. I was near tears nearly all day.

It puts Simeon Rice's sleazy comments to Jim Rome two years ago in even more contrast, and makes Rice look like a jerk.

We were so proud of Pat and his brother Kevin, and now we are mourning. The Arizona Republic paper had a full pullout section about him. May God bless his family and friends.

Last night I watched a film called the "Magdalene Sisters" about Catholic run asylums/prisons that existed in Ireland (the last one closed in 1996!) where families could send girls who had sinned against God and the family by doing things like engaging in heavy petting with a boy. They could only be released by the family and were essentially slave labor. Over 30,000 Irish women went through these "asylums". So I would say that Western Christians are totally capable of behaving in such a Neanderthal manner as well.

Does the fact that this behavior has also happened in the West lessen his crime? Not one iota.

Sheeesh! You are supposed to be a "multi-cultural" society (in the USA & Canada)-----how dare you judge the beliefs and customs of others!

If you don't like the Muslim traditions....then don't convert................to each their own.

You are never going to become well respected peasants of the "Global Village" until you learn to respect the "Other".

Well,welcome to turkey land..oh,wait..that's supposed to be my birth place.

I once met a woman sweating out on a field with a huge belly. I stopped out of curiousity wondering as to why someone that pregnant was bending,picking cotton.
I found out she was only 13 years old. I drove straight into the village and asked the tea house who she was and what she was doing out there.
It turns out,her husband was 72 year old and she was sold to him when she was only 10.
Disgusting,vile human beings.
How many other religion and/or culture allows this kind of inhumanity?
And we supposed to believe Islam is a peaceful religion?
Right!

Scary to think what Peltek's sons may have learned from their sorry excuse for a father.

#43 Alice: You forgot to mention the part about the murder,stabbings and hammer bashing. And that family consent was involved. And that this isn't Ireland.

Does the fact that this behavior has also happened in the West lessen his crime?

You seek to protect the guilty. I seek to protect the innocent. Why that makes you feel good about yourself is beyond me.

#43 Alice

You have a point.

ANY culture that devalues women is sick.

ANY culture that fears female sexuality is in big trouble.

Charles, I know you had to post this, but I am sick reading it. I'm gone for the nite

4 years old.

From Debka

US Navy reports two crewmen killed, five injured in Basra suicide speedboat attack on Basra terminal Saturday night.

British military spokesman reports 3 suicide speedboats attacked and shut Basra’s oil terminals Saturday night. Two exploded near at Umm Qasr loading platform 7 miles offshore alongside 2 tankers and interrupted loading. Unconfirmed report that coalition warship sent boarding party to third bomb vessel which then exploded. Shutdown of Basra oil exporting for one day takes 2 million barrels off market, will affect world prices.

Kuwait declares state of emergency, beefs up security on all its borders and oil installations following terrorist attack on Basra oil terminal and terrorist alert in Saudi Arabia

My impression is that this sort of savagry predates Islam among Arabs, may not even be completely protected by Islam... I think the prophet even forbade the killing of girls when a father prefered a boy - something that was apparently common.

I would never let Islam off the hook, but in this bullshit honor system stuff I don't think these savages even have the excuse of bad religion.

I've heard such bad stuff about honor killings in Jordan and the Palestinian territories - and about the government's refusal to do anything about it - and about the public supporting it. I read an interview with an activist who seemed more worried that us unworthy infidels might find out about Jordan's shame than about solving the situation...

I remember one case where a 7 year old girl was killed and left in a ditch by her family because there was a rumor that she'd been molested. Of course no one went after the molestor, so this "attacked his 4-year-old - My female family, yes. My male family, no" freak isn't the only one.

If this people like this aren't savages then the word "savage" has no meaning.

I am unable to parse the brain of a journalist. Journalists delight at every opportunity to slam fundmentalist Christians but will scratch their heads with their a@@es to avoid offending fundamentalist Muslims.

Christians catch hell because they don't give their approval to homosexuals. Muslims catch a wink and a nod when they push a wall over on them.

Christians get excoriated for wanting to "impose" their morality on society. Muslims get ignored for their stated desire to impose Sharia on everyone.

Had this been a story about some preacher beating the fear of God into his daughter, though, I'd bet a seabag full of paychecks that this writer would not only have indicted all of Christianity, but would have been prepared with a catalogue of Christian atrocities throughout the ages, just for context.

Not once in this article did I see the word Islam or Muslim mentioned.

#41 model4

"That, or truckloads across the Canadian border, since the Canadians want them"

What the f--ck is the slam at your neighbor for dickless head! Are you trying to make more enemys or do you just need an enema? Go get your diaper changed!

If you do not respect this sort of behaviour.....then you'll have to amend your immigration criteria......and only accept those "yearning to be free".....instead of the current "wanna make a bunch of money from the shtoopid infidels".

This is flat-out bullshit. Nowhere in my copy of the Constitution say that we have to bring in violent and hateful people to undermine our civilization.

CORRECTION: Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that we have to accept anyone into this country.

Hatice Peltek rest in peace. It must be true hell on earth to be a Muslim woman.

#52 The Happy Dyslectic

Calm down. That Canada has much more lenient immigration policies than the U.S. does is a well established fact.

On topic: this guy is mentally warped and sick. However, the scary thing is -- this might not be insanity. This probably is just the product of religion, indoctrination, and a culture that is rotten to its core. This guy made a conscious decision to kill HIS OWN FAMILY - for whatever reasons. And note: he says his brother molested his daugher. He didn't try to kill his brother for this betrayal, which would be logical and understandable - no, HE JUST KILLEDD HIS OWN WIFE AND CHILDREN.

One man's Constitution......in Iran it is called "The Koran"

What's the Constitution??

It took Peltek a few whacks before figured out he couldn't commit suicide with a hammer, I guess.

What a Muslime!
(pronounced muh-slyme)

#49

More civilized behavior. So sick of this sh*t.

Oh, but we must not offend different cultures.

So sick of this stupid, PC, must tolerate these not-ready-for-prime-time-civilization, dilusional fools.

In a February 2002 report by National Geographic News, Widney Brown, advocacy director for Human Rights Watch, said the practice “goes across cultures and across religions.

The moral relativism of that statement astounds me.

I don't know how the leftist apologists and appeasers can sink much lower than where they are right now.

Lurks No More:

Fundamentalist Christians are much less likely to kill someone that disagrees with them. These “journalists” are just displaying survival instinct.

#43 Alice

I also heard an interview with the the author of the book that became that movie.

I agree that what happened there was similarly bad.

Those girls were abused slaves, and repression and fear of sexuality was involved. But I don't see this as being as related as it looks at first glance.

The Magdalane asylums were the result of a melding of greed, religion, buracracy and ignorance, while this violence (in my opinion) come entirely from a concept of family "honor".

I don't think religion was so much involved (except perhaps perpetuation a belief that women are to blame for all sexuality) - and that it's acceptable to treat women as chattel.

My impression is that in this society, people take little rumors about each other's families (sexual rumors) and use them as weapons to abuse members of that family and as a reason to strip the members of all of their status.

Clearly that doesn't translate to America, but it's striking to read how a man hears a rumor and reacts as if a single rumor is the end of his life...

No I haven't studied this, so I don't really understand this... But these are my first impressions.

#57 ES

that's the way Arabs commonly react. This isn't just one sick man.

I'm quite sure it won't be long before NOW is all over this.

#51 - you are right. And I do not appreciate the free pass being given to the Muslim world for the way they treat gays - G*d help us all if that brand of Islam wins. American Christians may not agree with me, and may tell me - to my face - they think I am wrong -- fine, I can deal with that - and enjoy the debate! These folks I can live with - they at least don't try to kill me!

But that's not all Muslims -- one of my good friends - and fraternity brothers - is a practicing Muslim - and he does not believe in this idiocy. He is one of the most tolerant people I have ever met -- he has successfully merged Islam and Western thought. Just remember - we fight for the soul of Western Civilization - but now, willingly or not -- we must also fight for the soul of Islam. Because if we lose -- well, the incident that started this post illustrates what happens.

#65

I'm sure they're already saying "this is all over, nothing to see, move along"

#62 T. Jefferson

What would your namesake say if he heard your cynicism towards the Fourth Estate? :)

Is it me, or do Muslims have the smallest penises on earth?

I guess that came out wrong. What I mean is, despite however small my penis might be, do muslims have teeny little meal worm dicks? I can't figure out why else they are so frightened by women.

#56 Jaffar

That Canada has much more lenient immigration policies than the U.S. does is a well established fact.

Pray tell, which policies and what are their differences between the two countrys and why you agree that statements that have nothing to so with the subject are relevent? Go ask for mummys help if you need it.

#66 E.S.

Just remember - we fight for the soul of Western Civilization - but now, willingly or not -- we must also fight for the soul of Islam. Because if we lose -- well, the incident that started this post illustrates what happens.

Unfortunately, the incident that started this post illustrates quite accurately the soul of Islam.

Hey, Evariste! Camel Prophet! Help me out here.

This family honor stuff is more or less separate from Islam isn't it???!!!

Are there any quotes that say, your daughter sees a doctor - bash her brains out? Bakari and those genocidal assholes don't hold back, right? So if there is any scripture supporting this savagry it wouldn't be very subtle would it? So is there some, or not?!

Everyone is assuming that Islam is to blame, and I think this just shows there's even more wrong with Arabs than Islam.

#70 The Happy Dyslectic

Do you mean The Happy Dyspeptic?

I think this just shows there's even more wrong with Arabs than Islam.

There is a real good point being made here. The only way to save Islam may be to destroy the Arab version of it first, and see of the other varieties come around after being freed from the Arab's evil influence.

#69:

The islamists are afraid of not only women; they are also afraid of choice, non-believers, information, free press, history, education, television, radio, the internet, cats, dogs, horses, sand flies...

#74
You may have a point.

Islam and Arabia are inextricably linked. It is an Arab's interpretation of God's will. If you remove Arab influence from Islam you will still have the problem of the Koran being a reflection of Arab society.

#72:

Islam is not a religion, it's a way of life. It controls every aspect of a muslim's behavior, all day long. The ultimate facism. The Nazi attempt at this pales in comparison. Read up on sharia.

I just looked at the article.

I wish it had gone into more details about who the guy was.

Turks generally aren't so puritanical. I wonder what portion of Turkish society does this sort of thing. I wouldn't be surprised if it was only some Arab sub-group, but I think this conversation is suffering from a lack of experts and we're all making assumptions.

Some assume that this is a result of Islam.

I've only heard of such things among Arabs but that doesn't prove anything.

Do, say, Malasian Muslims have honor killings? I have heard that they tried to erase their own culture and become more pure Arabs than the Arabs, so even that might not prove anything.

Anyone here an expert on honor killings?

#72
Sharia is terrible to women, but my impression is that honor killings are considered crimes under Sharia, but are winked at in Arab societies.

I know about Sharia.

But I think the rot goes further than Sharia!

The way this intersects Sharia is that under Sharia murder is essencially a civil offense against a family, not a crime against society.

If a family won't charge a murderer then he won't be punished or won't be punished very much.

So if a member of that family does the killing and does it for the family's honor, then he probably won't be charged and gets of scott free.

But Sharia doesn't directly support honor killing or mandate them.

Puritanical? ::snort:: Leacherous cretins, IMHO.

Women are livestock subject ot permanent contamination.

Speaking of lecherous cretins, oerhaps the 4 year old had been examined by this guy.

Ugh. Article about honor killings.

74 Darn Toot'n

There are other versions of Islam around, eg in Indonesia and most of Turkey that don't support honour killings. Honour killings are essentially a tribal thing. It dates back to primitive uncertainty to do with supporting another man's child - essentially cave man stuff. You get it amongst primitive people everywhere.

The Arabs are a primitive bunch, especially where women are concerned though some can be fine on an individual basis. The problem is that the brand of Islam currently getting the most funding is the Wahabi/Saudi version.

The really worrying thing is that it is this very primitive and tribal version of Islam that is making headway amongst young Muslim men in Western Europe. Maybe it appeals to the thuggish, incoherently anti-Establishment and totally misogynist mentality of thick young men. (A good comparison is gangsta rap.) Combined with the blame/victim culture and political correctness that prevents a robust condemnation of these attitudes - it is a lethal cocktail.

Race and multiculturalism tends to trump gender - something that seriously pisses me off. As a woman and a feminist in the true sense of the word, I'd like to ask where are the LLL feminists condemning this kind of thing?

#82 bluemerle

I said "puritanical" because he attacked his 4-year-old daughter because Peltek, 41, said he attacked his 4-year-old daughter because she had been “sullied” by a gynecological exam.

That doesn't sound like the Turkey I've read about from a traveler who ended up spending the night with three women he met. Ok they didn't have sex but they got drunk together...

I doubt their families were the sort who consider an exam "sullying"

Lurks No More #68:

I am so glad you asked me that question. Here are a couple of quotes:

"Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day." --Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell, 1807. ME 11:224

"Advertisements... contain the only truths to be relied on in a newspaper." --Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Macon, 1819. ME 15:179

"I deplore... the putrid state into which our newspapers have passed and the malignity, the vulgarity, and mendacious spirit of those who write for them... These ordures are rapidly depraving the public taste and lessening its relish for sound food. As vehicles of information and a curb on our funtionaries, they have rendered themselves useless by forfeiting all title to belief... This has, in a great degree, been produced by the violence and malignity of party spirit." --Thomas Jefferson to Walter Jones, 1814. ME 14:46

"For the present, lying and scribbling must be free to those mean enough to deal in them, and in the dark." --Thomas Jefferson to Edmund Randolph, 1792. ME 8:411

"Perhaps an editor might begin a reformation in some such way as this. Divide his paper into four chapters, heading the 1st, Truths. 2nd, Probabilities. 3rd, Possibilities. 4th, Lies. The first chapter would be very short, as it would contain little more than authentic papers and information from such sources as the editor would be willing to risk his own reputation for their truth. The second would contain what, from a mature consideration of all circumstances, his judgment should conclude to be probably true. This, however, should rather contain too little than too much. The third and fourth should be professedly for those readers who would rather have lies for their money than the blank paper they would occupy." --Thomas Jefferson to John Norvell, 1807. ME 11:225

[Link: etext.lib.virginia.edu...]

#84 Curious: Doesn't suit their politics, and they are politicians way before they give a damn about women. Women are just the tools they use to promote their agenda. See race-hustlers, educrats, watermellons, etc, etc. And I say that as an abolitionist.

You know, the idea of these women wearing head-to-toe tents to make themselves invisible, and never venturing out without a male relative, is beginning to make sense.

If a woman can get killed because a man rapes or molests her, OF COURSE she'd want to avoid making herself a target for sexual attention.

NOT THAT I don't blame the animalistic MEN in this culture that (1) rape and molest and (2) kill the victims for it!!!

But part of me says the women can't be ENTIRELY victims in this. They are half the population, and they ACCEPT this kind of thing as a cultural norm?

And he tried to kill a 4-year old because she was examined by a doctor. Probably BECAUSE they wanted to know whether she was assaulted by his brother, too. And he tries to kill the kid!!!

This is just SO UPSETTING to me.

Okay, American feminists, you were out there marching for abortion rights yesterday----as though that's not the law of the land already! Well, f*cking WAKE UP and see what's happening in Rochester NY and other cities in THIS COUNTRY. Let's see a march to protest "honor killing."

NOW condemns this ... oh, wait, I must have been day dreaming.

It's too bad there isn't a signature disease that would either render all of the males sterile or the women.
Boy howdy. we would witness the seething of all ages!

#88 nonic

If a woman can get killed because a man rapes or molests her, OF COURSE she'd want to avoid making herself a target for sexual attention.

Hang on a minute there. So if we ran around the ME feeling up all of the women, does that mean we would wind up depopulating the whole place in one fell swoop?

/light bulb

What's the big deal. Here in the west we have wife beaters too.

Gordon, is that you?

#36 real west

the audience (at NYC's Madison Square Garden) chanted "USA", "USA" for so long they delayed the long awaited start of the draft

Thank you for telling me (us) that. I needed to hear something like that right now.

Hey, NO sarcasm --- I'm SERIOUS. I needed to hear about love of our country and our culture.

Damn. This New York guy really got to me. And it was such a bright sunny Saturday afternoon . . .

#49 Ed Moran: Related maritime stuff. As reported here and on the maritime newsgroups there have been increasing kidnappings of tanker and other vessel bridge crews in the Malacca Straits. Some are helmsmen or others with navigational knowledge. I once turned down a job in Indonesia upon learning the OSVs are targeted by pirates who are usually moonlighting Indonesian navy personnel. Now we and the Singaporeans are doing joint maneuvers throughout the area, so something is up.

4 years old. Damn.

#43 Alice

Alice, I understand what you're saying. That particular aspect of Irish (Catholic) experience WAS despicable.

But nobody killed the girls. And that's a BIG difference.

#51 Lurks No More

See Nicholas Kristof in the NY Times today, “Hug an Evangelical” where he complains about liberal Christian-bashing. (Yeah, Kristof!) Evangelical

Also, David Brooks, where he makes the point that some people, like the terrorists, are just EVIL. Although the Times (or he) misleads readers about the topic of his piece by calling it “The Columbine Killers.”Columbine

#51 Lurks No More

Not once in this article did I see the word Islam or Muslim mentioned.

Personally, I think that might be a good thing. It prevents any tainting, especially when they start picking a jury, regarding claims of religious bias. It also shuts down the CAIR whining before it even starts.

You saw the Ralph Peters piece in the NY Post yesterday (another thread here)? I particularly liked that he excoriated the "arab culture" but never mentioned islam or muslim.

Regarding the Catholic 'fallen women' comparisons:

For crying out loud, yes, we in the West used to treat women like shit, punish rape victims (though not by stoning) etc etc.

BUT, and this is a BIG BUT, in fact it's bigger than Michael Moores butt (and you can't get much bigger):

WE DON'T DO IT ANY MORE!! WE CRITICISE OURSELVES FOR IT!! WE STOPPED IT!! WE ARE BETTER THAN ARAB CULTURES BECAUSE WE STOPPED IT. THEY STILL DO IT!!!!

OK, rant mode off.

I no longer want to use the term "honor killing", how about “Bloody Pagan Human Sacrifice" instead?

This barbarian needs to be burned at the stake. Where I come from, the man of the family would kill the RAPIST m*f*cker, to protect his WIFE and DAUGHTERS.

THAT's what honor means, pig.

Honor killings can now join female genital mutilation (amputation of the clitoris) in baby girls, already being done more or less openly by the savages in Paterson, NJ.

How about it, NOW? IPPF? gonna fight for these females' rights?

No, nary a peep out of you. Beyond contempt.

#72 Joshua Scholar

Everyone is assuming that Islam is to blame, and I think this just shows there's even more wrong with Arabs than Islam.

I think you're on the right track.

Islam, schmislam -- I don't care what their RELIGION is. There's lots of religions out there that don't make sense to me.

But I expect law-abiding, HUMANE, civilized, mutually respectful behavior from everybody.

#81 Joshua Scholar

The way this intersects Sharia is that under Sharia murder is essencially a civil offense against a family, not a crime against society.

That's interesting. But I wonder....

So if sharia becomes the law for muslims in the US, does that mean that honor killings could be protected from criminal law?

At what point does public action take place to change policy--on immigration, education, etc.? And why hasn't it taken place yet? The political class won't move unless pushed. And I don't hear a single politician even suggesting restrictions on Muslim immigration or religious education in the US.

#86 T Jefferson

Many, many thanks for the quotes AND the link!

#91 Viper

A little cynical, but, hey, let's file that idea.

This story reminds me of a creep doctor (OBGYN!!!) my roomie knew in college--Nassir Bashir, a Paki. This slime mold told us that he never wore underwear when he examined his patients, because he liked to give his erections free play.

He followed me home to my dorm one night, and wouldn't leave me alone, pestering me to take me up to my room (!!!). I asked the big, strapping, cleancut All American jock behind the lobby desk (God bless him) to help me out, and he frog-marched this dickhead out the door.

His buddy Israr Choudhury, another paki and friend of my idiot roommate, got into our (restricted) dorm one morning when we were still in bed, and we couldn't get rid of him. If he'd made a ruckus, WE would have been in trouble for having a man in our room. So he sat at the foot of the bed and kept talking about how he was betrothed to a 12-year-old back home (he was 27), but he was still a virgin. And that all the men back home said American women are hot and willing sluts who love foreign men. Would we please relieve him of his virginity????

We finally got rid of the creep.

I also remember the great anecdote about the British colonel in the 1800s dealing with the hideous Indian custom of suttee, burning their widows alive, on the funeral pyre with their deceased husband. An Indian was objecting to the Brits outlawing this murder: "You must understand--this is our custom here!" The colonel fixed him with a cold eye and said, "We also have customs. When a man burns a woman alive, we hang the chap."

End of suttee.

I expect law-abiding, HUMANE, civilized, mutually respectful behavior from everybody.

nonic thats the problem we expect it but we have not been getting it from islamofascists. thats why eventually it will come to a head. everything that has happened up untill now will look like minor league in comparison

#93 zulubaby

(Zu, you must have a REALLY FAST connection!)
(Pouncing on 92 THAT QUICK! I'm impressed.)
(And jealous.)

Cut his bits off!

That's my 'nuanced' opinion.

Curious, or should that be Furious.

#108 rumcrook

everything that has happened up untill now will look like minor league in comparison

I absolutely agree. It's not a pleasant prospect. But a necessary one.

People here used to say, "faster, faster." I'm kind of surprised at how fast it has gone. And I think it's going to pick up speed.

nonic (#109)

(Zu, you must have a REALLY FAST connection!)

DSL, baby! :-)

#86 T. Jefferson - yo bro!!!

Thomas Jefferson. Perhaps the greatest American who ever lived.
I just know you've heard this before, and so, probably have most of the regulars out here, but I'm posting it again just because:

At a White House Dinner to honor Nobel Prize Winners (from all over the world) President John F. Kennedy said:

"In the history of the White House, there has never been such a congregation of intellect, science, and human wisdom than there is tonight.
Except for when Thomas Jefferson last dined here alone."

(I'm paraphrasing, but it's close enough for jazz)!

#107 OBGYN story: Ugh!

After reading this article, I was ready to call for the execution of this evil piece of shit in the most excruciating manner possible, but then I saw ...

When deputies first tried to talk to Peltek, they were stymied because he was complaining of pain from his stomach wounds.

”Do you know where you are?” he was asked by Investigator David Vaughn, according to court documents.

”Strong Hospital. I love America. I am not a terrorist,” Peltek responded.

”We know that,” Vaughn said.

”OK,” Peltek replied. “Nobody listen.”

After painkillers took effect and Arican was brought in to help with the interview, Peltek allegedly gave details of the attacks, which he said occurred while his family was asleep.

”Did you kill your wife today?” Vaughn asked.

”Yes. Yes,” Peltek allegedly replied. “I knifed her and I knifed myself.

”They took my honor.”

I was wrong, what a fantastic guy. He murders his wife (and nearly his daughter) while they slept, and tries to kill a 4-year old girl with a f'in hammer, but hey, he's not a terrorist. That these stories don't lead the national news is a testament to the tragic departure this society has made from the success of decades of the "melting pot" ideology to the travesty of "multiculturalism." All cultures, and all so-called "religions" are not equally admirable, and it is one of the great tragedies of modern liberal dogma that we have attempted to pretend otherwise. Our immigration policy is a disaster, and will have far-reaching, disasterous consequences for America, both in terms of protection against terrorist infiltration, as well as already witnessed in the west and southwest, costs to social programs, education, health care, and crime. Both political parties are a joke on immigration policy, as their sole concern is vote-getting, not doing their Constitutionally-mandated job. We need immigration (of the LEGAL variety), but controlled under the guise of a sensible policy including secure borders, cooperation from governments that immigrants come from, and a totally revamped visa-granting and tracking process. We continue to allow millions to enter this country illegally, and import legions of immigrants like this murderous asshole that share none of the values of liberal democratic society at our own peril.

88 nonic

woman and fitna

[Link: www.muspe.unibo.it...]

Classic Islam defines the wifely duties in terms of women's obligation to provide sex over and above their obligation to reproduce and mother (2). Women cannot refuse to perform the conjugal duty (Naamane-Guessous 1990: 194) (3). They should fulfill this duty so as to prevent men from committing illicit intercourse. Yet, this also protects themselves against their husbands marrying a second wife. Only women who know how to please their husbands are capable of assuring their attention and support.

The powerlessness of women can potentially be inverted if they manage to seduce and ensnare men. Orthodox scholars acknowledge this danger and since men are primarily created to worship God, they warn against female seduction and particularly against attachment to women. God requires the believer's total love and all of his capacity for emotional attachment: "Emotional attachment divides man's heart, and Allah hath not created man with two hearts within his body" (Quran Surah II: 165).

Mernissi argues that implicitly in the religious discourse women are feared for their disruptive potentials. Women are capable of creating fitna (4) chaos provoked by sexual disorder (Mernissi 1975: 4). According to the implicit religious discourse, both sexes have an active sexual nature and female desires should be gratified as well. If women are not sexually satisfied they create fitna by enticing other men than their husbands. Hence: "The virtue of the woman is a man's duty. And the man should increase or decrease sexual intercourse with the woman according to her needs so as to secure her virtue" (al-Ghazali in Mernissi 1975).

The need to satisfy the female desire and the difficulties men have in fulfilling this duty is the topic of the erotic discourse (Sabbah 1984). The erotic discourse is an extension of the implicit theory and deals with female desireas mirrored in men's thought. It is an attempt by religious scholars to counsel the believer in the righteous conduct towards sexual desire. The orthodox discourse mainly focusses on the strong male desire, the implicit theory recognizes the active sexuality of both sexes, and the erotic discourse is chiefly centered on the aggressive nature of female passion. Female desire is active in the implicit theory, but it becomes aggressive and threatening in the erotic discourse. In the erotic discourse there is thus a reversal of roles. Men are impotent and weak whereas women's passion is insatiable. They resort to cunning, qaid, in order to reach their sexual gratification. Yet, despite the difference between these constructions of gender and sexuality, it is striking that they converge in their definition of women as primarily sexual beings. The female body is highly sexualised. Whether the female body should be confined and covered, or unleashes its aggressive sexuality, in both cases the sexual aspect of the female body is cardinal (5). Women cannot refuse to perform the conjugal duty (Naamane-Guessous 1990: 194) Whether women passively try to keep their legal husband's attention through being desirable or actively seduce other men, in both cases their sexual dimension is central. In both discourses the female body is reduced to the sexual aspects.

so when you see lump in a burka....all there is under that black bag is a vagina spreading fitna to slaves of allah

Slightly OT --

John Kasich on Fox TV just did a segment on the Muslim prayers about to be broadcast in Hamtramck Michigan. It started out well enough with some tape of the city council making its idiot decision, but then had Muslim spokeshole and all-around obese guy Hussein Ibbish and some ATHEIST, for Pete's sake. The atheist compared the aznan (?) with church bells tolling and Ibbish assured the viewers that it was a beautiful sound and wouldn't start before 6 am. Erf.

Not Kasich's finest hour, I'm afraid.

Danger: gross Ibish photo in case anyone needs a reminder...
[Link: astro.temple.edu...]

#107 ylreveb

My #82 contains a link to yet another (creepy) Paki MD named Naseer.... I'm sure those patients were sending off "hair rays" that drove him insane.

Naseer loves the ladies

#65 J.D.

Nope.

Ain't.

Gonna.

Happen.

NOW won't say jack. Gloria Allred won't show up to sue the guy. Nada. Zip.

Dead silence from the protectors of women.

Pat Tillman died fighting [bigoted word]s, and we let them immigrate to the US.

Who let the dog in, and why?

I don't understand how murdering the victim of a dishonorable deed restores honor.

Desert Islam, and its culture, is very weird.

I am assuming that Ismail is a follower of desert Islam, or is influenced by it, or by its culture.

I guess that it is a blame society, where blaming a scapegoat is all-important. And females, in that society, are the outsiders, and therefore the most likely to be blamed for anything, including being blamed for their own victimization.

Does this make sense? I am having a hard time understanding this. Perhaps somebody who is more attuned to Arab or Muslim culture could explain this.

nonic: Yes, killing them is worse. But I feel like we are arguing over shades of evil. In general, this is how I feel:
1. He's a filthy piece of shit and there are millions of them out there. These honor-killer freaks do currently seem to be concentrated in Africa, the Middle East, and some Asian countries. It is fair ask why particularly vicious strains of misogyny are tolerated in certain countries, even if it's not PC to do so. Example: in India and Pakistan women can be burned alive for not producing male heirs. In some African countries, women have all of their external genitalia sliced off with a rusty razorblade. There are many cultures in Africa where women are worth less than animals. It's OK to demand it stop, even if we have sexism in the US - even if it's not PC. However...
2. Stepping back and looking at the big picture, it's hard to find many countries on earth where women haven't been treated as less valuable than animals at some point. Even looking at this specific perversion, i.e. dictatorial males with enormously fragile senses of honor and a colossal amount of fear centered around sexual urges about which they feel tremendously ashamed, hence the scapegoating of the female. Kill the thing outside of me because I can't kill this thing inside of me. This same shame based, rage-aholic machismo can be seen in many Central and South American cultures, Italian culture, and even among the Puritans. Pointing that out is not excusing the behavior of an epic maniac who kills his family with a hammer.
3. I don't feel expert enough in any religion to claim that this flows more from one religion than another. Is it possible? Yes. Is it fair and important to ask? Yes. I think that this is a question worth taking seriously. I think answering it would take perhaps a lifetime of study. The bottom line is that there are many directions given in the Bible that your average Christian completely ignores because it seems like a crazy law made up a million years ago. Doesn't it seem likely that many Muslims treat the Koran in the same way?
So then we are talking about culture AND religion, hence my claim that it would take a lifetime. Because I do not have that question answered I would never slam all Muslims, Hindus, Christians, etc.
4. I would also point out that there are plenty of Muslims who come to this country in part because they can't stand the way women are treated in their country of origin. SO, I would never tar them with the same brush as the beast in the article.

#119 Richard McEnroe

Oh, I wasn't expecting N.O.W. I 'grew up' wondering what was all the fuss about Gloria Steinum.

I think it's gonna be up to N.A.G., but I don't really expect them to pick up the ball and run with it, either.

Rep Peter King (R-NY) on Fox (After Hours-CalThomas) --

"Very few American Muslims are cooperating with law enforcement... Unprecedented in wartime."

He has been one of the most outspoken in Congress about the internal threat.

#26 - The bastard is lucky he did this in New York State. As we aficianados of true crime books know so well, only a few crimes can constitute first-degree murder in New York. Even though in another state such heinous violence and premeditation might be enough for a first degree charge, it's not in New York. And from what I understand, prior to 1995, killing a policeman was the only thing that would bring a first-degree charge.

But since a first-degree murder conviction can carry the death penalty in that state, I'd've loved it if they could've hung that charge on the bastard by claiming this constitutes "Intentional Murder Accompanied by Torture." Having to be married to this man would, I think, be torture in and of itself.

Unbelieveable.

Couldn't possibly make up anything more heinous.

I only believe it because he's a Muslim devil. Who else would even think to justify it in the name of "honor?"

Muslim devils have no honor.

Convert them all. Make them renounce mohammed on pain of "self inflicted hammer wounds" to the head.

Fiends.

The Dev, . . . . uhhhh, muhammet made me do it !

/ Squalid Muslim Inbreeding mode off*

#100 Nell

The funny thing is that a Palestinian propganda agency was trying to get Palestinians to stop using the phrase "suicide bombings" when talking to westerners.

They wanted the killing of Israelis to be called "Honor Killings"

My take on this is that they figure that the world already accepts blowing up Jews and they want to see if they can use the hatred of Jews to rehabilitate "Honor Killings".

Then next time you see the phase "honor killing" in a headline you'll just assume that some scummy Jew got blown up - figure "they deserve it" and turn the page without bothering to read that a four year hold got her head bashed in because some doctor examined her.

Just a point of information: The murderer Peltek is not an Arab.

He's from Turkey (there are some "ethnic" Arabs in southern Turkey and Cyprus, but his name doesn't look Arabic).

I'm wondering if he's a Kurd. Kurds tend to come from the ruggedly mountainous, mostly rural, and generally less-modern eastern part of Turkey. They remain heavily clannish, tribalized, and socially retrograde in ways that Turks generally just aren't (tribal factionalism, BTW, is among the big reasons why the Kurds have never obtained their own state, even tho' they are such a large [30 to 40 million] and self-conscious group).

A few years ago, there was a notorious honor-killing case among Kurdish immigrants in Sweden in which a young woman named Fadime Sahindal was murdered by her own father b/c she refused an arranged marriage:

[Link: mywebpage.netscape.com...]

Somehow I trust Charles Darwin.

phil, #129

I don't know about that case, and my computer is too sickly to link to anything, so I can't read your link.

But I do have to say something about the Kurds. Maybe it's because my husband and kids are Kurdish-Israeli Jews, but I do feel I should mention something positive. And that is, that my elderly Kurdish relatives all say that their fellow Kurds treated them as brothers, and did not mistreat them for being Jewish.

OTH, the governments of the countries they came from did mistreat them, both for being Kurdish and for being Jews.

I know it's anecdotal, and I've never been to Kurdistan myself, but I live in a very Kurdish neighborhood near Jerusalem, and the people are wonderful.

Just had to pipe up a bit. :-)

Re: the "honor killings."

Aside from any ethnic/religious considerations, blaming the victims is inexcusable.

As I learned ages ago in Social Work school, sexual predators tend to terrify their victims into keeping quiet, by threatening the lives of their loved ones.

So that, ironically, by suffering themselves, the molested women were probably trying to save the life of their husband/father.

And the 4-year-old obviously had NO idea of what was going on.

Please, NYS, make sure justice is served.

#122 Alice

I understand your feelings about this and the necessary confusion it arouses in you. Because I feel the same way and the same confusion.

I think that, aside from the inability to understand world, historical, societal, cultural, and religious mistreatment of women, we women also struggle to understand why and how men could often treat us individually, in our own lives, unfairly or cruelly, and our own society allows it, makes light of it, sometimes makes money off it.

For instance, I saw a link yesterday on USA Today for a story about black women protesting the degrading depiction of them in a lot of rap music.

How could this happen? We’re their lovers, wives, mothers, daughters, sisters—how could they do this?

I’ll get real personal here, and tell you that my husband just recently walked out on me after 30 years of marriage and five children. Never a hint, never a clue, never a discussion of any dissatisfactions. He told me on his way out the door that he “met someone” and wasn’t coming home again.

I haven’t worked outside the home in 28 years. I have several fairly limiting health problems. I’m almost 60. I still have two teenagers who need a lot of attention and time. And yet my husband expects me to start a career!!! now, to become self-supporting----partly because he wants to retire!!!----and my lawyer tells me, well, yes, that is what the court will expect, too.

Now it happens that the law in New Jersey won’t allow me to starve----I’ll get alimony. But it probably won’t be much. I ‘ll have less than a third of the household income that I have grown dependent on. I’ll lose my health insurance. I’ll lose my home. And my sacrifice and devotion to my husband and family for almost 30 years will be reduced to an accounting problem.

And this is in a state with “enlightened” and “fair” divorce law----it would be far worse for me, and my children, under Pennsylvania law, where he ran off to with his young girlfriend and where he was trying to have the divorce take place.

Maybe it sounds overly dramatic and even narcissistic for me to say that stories like the Rochester husband killing his wife in her sleep touch me very personally because, in a way, I identify with it. I was discarded just as she was.

But even if it’s only because I’m trying to hang on to my sanity----which is sometimes lately a pretty iffy proposition here—I HAVE TO believe that there is a difference, a very important HUMANE difference between the way some cultures accept women being killed to be gotten rid of, and some insist on her personal safety and at least enough “severance pay” that she won’t be thrown into the street on welfare.

Yes, it seems that throughout time, across cultures and religions, within and without secular governments, women have been and continue to be treated badly by men. And it is always about sexuality----he used my fertility like a commodity and now his girlfriend’s sex like a prize. His prize, for being a man.

Will we women ever know real fairness? Probably not. Was it fair or even decent for Irish Catholics to imprison young women because men found them sexually attractive? Certainly not. But there’s such a HUGE difference between being told your life’s contribution no longer matters, being divorced and reduced to a mean standard of living or being put into a “home for wayward girls” on the one hand----and MURDERED on the other!

I agree with you that it would take a lifetime to UNDERSTAND the basic animus that men and society have toward women. If it can ever be understood. If it’s WORTH understanding. And IS IT worth understanding----or is it better to simply insist that the worst not be accepted and condoned and that at least women be allowed to live and with some little dignity?

Would understanding change anything? I doubt it. I think men do what they do because they CAN. And they will always have that option, because biology itself and time itself treats them differently.

And that’s what appalls me about the Rochester story and the general cultural treatment of women in societies that accept genital mutilation, child marriage, forced marriage, honor killing----that what is a basic historical difference between men and woman is allowed to play out in the worst possible ways, i.e., genital mutilation, child marriage, forced marriage, and honor killing. That there is not the insistence that at least women be insured life, liberty, and the pursuit of their own satisfaction in life.

It’s not that any culture in any time has ever been “the best,” been perfect----but that some cultures, even today, settle for the worst. It’s not that every man in a particular culture takes the worst path. But in some cultures, enough of them do so that it’s the norm. Some places, it’s even written in their law.

That evil man in Rochester did not spring out of a vacuum----he came out of a culture. A culture that, unlike ours, settles for the worst treatment of women.

nonic, #133,

What a powerful and moving post.

I am so sorry (and angry) to hear of your situation.

Your focus and courage are inspiring, especially as you point out the differences between being "discarded" socially (and morally, and financially) and killed.

I feel like I want to say something optimistic to you, but since I don't know you, I don't want to say stuff that might sound like a bunch of cliches.

I do feel that it's beautiful, how you identify with the Rochester women, and others like them, and it speaks volumes about you. Even in a painful time of shock for you, your focus is on compassion for them, rather than on (legitimate) anger at your husband's new "someone else."

May you be blessed with rewarding years ahead.

#134 merav

Thank you very much for your encouragement and good wishes. I’m not looking for sympathy (although I’ve had my moments!). I’m a little embarrassed now that I said all that. Except that it was still before dawn, this site is anonymous, and I want people to get away from the “cultural relativism” viewpoint that says, well, honor killing is just another example of an historical and endemic problem. IT’S NOT.

My rat husband ran out, but I will get on with my life. Even at a reduced standard of living, I’m slowly beginning to realize that I am and will be far better off without him.

There IS a “safety net” for me and others (millions!) like me in our culture and society, in the United States. I will get some alimony, part of his pension, and the same portion of Social Security I would have got even if he had not left. (Once a woman is married 10 years, she has full, vested Social Security rights—including even *divorced* widow’s rights!)

And that’s the difference between our culture and some others, where girl children and women are viewed as NOTHING but the property, servants, and toys of men, and can even be KILLED for some (full of sh*t) notion like HIS “honor.”

It is the disease of “multiculturalism” and “cultural relativism” that is the real danger in these matters. Not that people don’t always treat each other the best way possible----but that in the West, in our Judeo-Christian culture, we don’t treat people the *worst* way possible. We should recognize that, applaud that, expand that to other cultures, and not make lame anthropological/sociological excuses for them.

/off soapbox

135 Nonic - well said. There is a huge Gulf (ho ho) between Western culture in which some men are bastards and this barbaric culture. One of the main differences is that your husband's behaviour would come in for criticism by most right thinking men and women. In Islamic 'culture' he could just take a second wife and this would be applauded.

Someone earlier mentioned women's objections to misogyny in rap music. Of course the LLL feminists don't make a fuss about this - rap music is part of black culture and race always trumps gender. If white 'musicians' were coming out with the same moronic thuggish drivel, the story would be completely different.

131 merav:

I'm sorry if my post came off as making a blanket attack on all Kurds; that was not how I meant it.

Kurds are by no means a wholly backward group. In particular, the Kurdish provinces of Iraq (and especially the PUK areas, e.g., Sulaimaniyah) are known for forward-thinking attitudes about Islam (many Kurds are quite secular, and the practicing Muslims among them are Sunnis influenced by Sufism, which is open and irenic--Wahhabis hate Sufis with a passion just for this reason).

If you look at the college enrollments in Iraqi Kurdistan, you'll see that women's education is doing well--about half the student body at the large University of Sulaimaniyah, for instance, is female.

In fact, if there is to be fullscale interregional strife or secessionism in Iraq, a big slice of it could be Kurds fighting against the attempts of Shi'ite clerics to force shari'a down everyone's throats.

It's a bit OT, I know, but there's reason to suspect that Sistani, the so-called moderate Shi'ite ayatollah, in fact intends to bring about the creeping shariafication of Iraq, a trend the Kurds would almost certainly resist, with force if they were pushed to it. This is one of the reasons why the Kurds don't want to disband their peshmerga forces or submerge them in a shaky new Iraqi army.

Yes, you CAN judge a society by how it treats women.

#135 nonic:
Here's a hug:
{{{{{{{{{{nonic}}}}}}}}}}
It's not much, but I hope it picks you up a bit when you need it.

#121 EE

Does this make sense? I am having a hard time understanding this. Perhaps somebody who is more attuned to Arab or Muslim culture could explain this.

Background Reading on Islam and sexuality.
BTW, I'm not attuned to any of this "culture" crap. I just happened to find this Islamic scholar, and he makes some sense into explainig some of the utterly savage behavior towards women.

#84 - Turkey has its share of honor killings: Murder by Stoning

BİA (Yaylim) - ... a woman named Cemse Allak was buried in a corner of a municipal cemetery here. Ms. Allak, unmarried and pregnant, had died from a stoning.

Villagers and local lawyers said Ms. Allak - as well as the man who had made her pregnant - had been killed to restore the honor of their families.

For seven months after her stoning, Ms. Allak lay semi-conscious, her skull crushed, unable to move or speak. Still, according to the people who watched over her, Ms. Allak was capable of expressing a wide range of emotions with her eyes.

Relatives visited once, in the beginning, to tell the hospital staff that they could not pay for her care. The fetus inside Ms. Allak died six weeks after the attack.

I think there should be a mandatory course for new immigrants where they are taught to respect our laws, and what our laws are with regards to women. Sure, there is domestic abuse in our society perpetrated by all kinds of people, but it's not condoned and it is punished, like any other violent crime.

#133 nonic - Big hug from CastorOil.

Screw him and all Muslims who act like him!

nonic (#133)

I'm very sorry to hear what you're going through.

nonic: Good luck. What a troll.

On a less important note, I am not a cultural relativist. Relativists believe you can't say that one culture is superior to another. I definitely believe that the US is the best place on earth to live, or I wouldn't live here. I don't want people to look outward and start to feel too smug, because that's bad for women in this country. But I understand that a lot of the posts here are expressing their frustration with what they - and I- see as paralyzingly stupid cultural relativity theory that has some people thinking we don't have the right to defend ourselves as a nation because we aren't perfect.

Nonic,
My heartfelt sympathy for your plight. The feminists sold us a load of cr*p when they argued "no fault" divorce would liberate us. What it did was make it economically dangerous for a woman to devote herself to uncompensated labor (eg, raising 5 children). I admire your perspective and resolve.

#137, phil,

Thank you for a thoughtful and informative post.

nonic, #135. Once again, an inspirational post.

There's one thing I wanted to mention, though - regarding the issue of men "using" women's fertility. IMHO, fertility is a gift, first and foremost to the woman who has it. It's taken for granted in our made-to-order culture, but anyone who's suffered through infertility knows how powerful fertility is.

I've learned about some cultures (Egypt, for example), where a woman's fertility IS actually used, in that she can be divorced against her will and has no chance of getting custody of her own kids. But as long as we are not forcibly separated (G-d forbid) from our kids, our fertility, IMHO, is as valuable to us as it is to our husbands. Maybe even more so, as in the case of absentee or deadbeat fathers.

Sorry to have injected such a personal opinion into this discussion. And if I sounded like I was lecturing, please forgive me.

OK! It's late here! Time to turn in.

All the best!

146 Merav:

You're welcome.

Now, since we're dealing with the Middle East, a region where nothing is simple and just about no one has clean hands, let me also point out that Kurdish tribal militias were also heavily involved in the Armenian genocide and ethnic cleansing of 1915.

That campaign, engineered by the dying Ottoman Turkish imperial regime, was partly "subcontracted" to the Kurds, who were neighbors of the Armenians--a Christian people speaking their own distinct language with a historic capital in the region of Lake Van--and had long had an adversarial relationship with them.

It marked the beginning of a sad trend which through the course of the 20th century saw millions of non-Muslims driven out of the Muslim Middle East into Israel and the West. (Baghdad and Tehran alone had ancient Jewish communities numbering in the hundreds of thousands only decades ago, and Turkey had over a million Greek Orthodox Christians.) The expulsion of non-Muslims, I believe, has tended to make Muslim extremism easier to rationalize and adopt throughout the greater MidEast, which is one of the reasons why this trend is so malign.

The al-Qaeda affiliates who carried out the terror bombings in Istanbul last fall were Kurdish Sunni extremists, who hate the Kemalist regime that succeeded the Ottomans because Kemal Ataturk was a Turkish nationalist AND a secularist who suppressed both Kurdish nationalism and the influence of Islam.

#133/135 nonic,

I'm not one to offer many cyber-hugs, but

{{{{{nonic}}}}}

I can't imagine how a man can just throw away a lifetime partner. To me it seems like a kind of mental illness.
I sincerely hope that you find comfort from your children, any other family around you, and friends. And I also hope that the outcome of this situation leaves you in a situation of more security and stability than you currently expect.
If your husband is advanced in years (but obviously not wisdom) then what he feels is his reward of external validation will likely become his punishment when he is treated the same way as he has treated you. Time will prove that his fun will not be his happiness. He may be high as a kite right now, but when he falls, he's going fall hard.

alice #122 and nonic #133 -

These are two of the best posts I've read on lgf since I discovered the site almost 2+ years ago, and that's saying something. Thoughtful, mutually respectful and well-written.

I lean towards agreeing more with nonic than with alice, although alice makes some excellent points. It's true that the abysmal treatment of women occurs in many (I won't say "all" since I am not an expert in every culture on Earth) cultures, but what I see as the main difference is the degree of tolerance that such behavior enjoys from the population at large and the legal system.

Yes, there is wife-beating here. Yes, there is child abuse here. Yes, women STILL don't earn as much as men do for doing the same work. Yes, men STILL come out ahead economically in a divorce in most states. Yes, until a little more than a hundred years ago, when a woman married, all of her assets belonged to her husband. Yes, in many professions women STILL do not have the same opportunities to get ahead, because they do not have "wives" at home to take care of everything for them while they work the 70 or 80 hours a week which are necessary to advance in the male-dominated workplace.

I found all of that out first-hand when I was left a widow at the age of 29 with a six-year-old to raise on my own. I am an attorney, but I could not work the long hours in a large firm to get on the "partner track" unless I had been willing to turn his upbringing over to hired help, which I was not. I had to make certain choices in my career which excluded me from the big-income option. I raised a wonderful human being, who I often think is as wonderful as he is in spite of my many blunders, and I have no regrets, but I sure could have used the money when he was growing up, going to college, summer camp, etc.

BUT - As unfair as all of these cultural "norms" were and continue to be to women, I think there is a substantive difference between them and the pracitices which are the subject of this thread.

I think that the main difference is that while the status of women in the West was and continues to be shaped by economic factors engendered by the structure of capitalism, the way women are treated under Islamic law is much more far-reaching and, since it is bound up with bedrock religious and cultural traditions, much more impervious to self-criticism and change.

Again, thank you alice and nonic for a most thought-provoking exchange.

Peltek allegedly made the remarks 14 hours after the attack to Monroe County sheriff’s investigators at Strong Memorial Hospital, where he was treated for self-inflicted stab wounds to his abdomen and hammer wounds to his head.

Notice how his wounds were not fatal? Amazing that his love for life exceeded his feeble attempts at suicide while his attacks on females were 100% fatal. This guy will get to see the wheels of Judeo-Christian justice grind him to dust.

What's wrong with what he did? After all, who wouldn't bash his wife's head in after she was molested? And why not hit your daughter on the head with a hammer? And why not pretend to injure yourself since you were so distraught?

It fits in with all the rest of the mores and mentality of a significant part of humanity, of a certain religious persuasion.

136 Curious
139 cba
141 CasterOil
143 zulubaby
144 Alice
145 thinkingmom
147 merav & 134
149 PDM & 134
150 Amy

Thanks to all for your support and good wishes. I will be okay. I feel humbled by your caring responses.

I apologize for “dumping” on you all, but I used my own experience to make a point, AND, I’ll admit, your kind responses have been therapeutic for me. I thank you all.

Alice and Amy, great discussion, thanks.

Fini.