Amen. Really.

Watching the Rummy Roasting the other day, Lieberman was the only one who made any sense. He's a decent guy.

This was really powerful when he said it, and you could see he was angry with the Democrats who were piling on Rumsfeld.

Whoa! I like his style, and I vote Republican.

Whatever happened to people like FDR and Harry Truman? They knew when to open a can of whuppass on the enemies of the USA.

They would be furious with almost all Democrats save the Zell Miller and Joseph Lieberman sort.

Ignoring Lieberman is one of the reasons why the Dems are becoming more and more scary. Kerry sure doesn't look to be having this kind of common sense.

Come on over Joe, the water's fine. There is nobody left over there that thinks like you.

Maybe God is sparing the Dems because they have one righteous man.

Thank you.

Zulubaby when I think of the media and the L^3 I just can't accept that they really are interested in helping this nation survive.
That is why I avoided all coverage of the Rummy Roast save blogs like this.

Lieberman is a voice of reason in a party increasingly hijacked by blowhards like Gore and political weathervanes like Kerry. If the Dems had chosen Liberman I reckon Bush would be chasing his dust at this point.
[Link: cicada.typepad.com...]

Sean, Rummy handled himself beautifully, as usual, but the likes of Robert Byrd were ranting at him. Can you want it? Feh.

Glad to live in "Cuppa Joe's" state rather than the one represented by Kennedy and Kerry. My pharmacist told me just this afternoon that Lieberman sits next to her father in shul. He's well liked by his neighbors, too-- never been known to have a Kerry "Do You Know Who I Am?" moment.

Too bad he couldn't get any Joe-Mentum going in the primaries. I listened to him talk about the Middle East, he seemed to understand perfectly and agree with what Bush is doing. Sane, mature, with a sensible vision guided by principles...no wonder the Democrats hate him so much. I think he's the second-most hated Democrat after Zell Miller.

OT:

Apparently, PETA is taking a stand, against Michael Moore.

Downsize this!? PETA thinks Michael Moore Super-sizes too often.

I should note that it is just gossip, but I found it too funny to be worth caution.

Maybe it is time the Democratic party split. On one side, there would be the Rational Democrats™ (such as Joseph Lieberman, Zell Miller, and other non-socialist Democrats), on the other side-- the Loony Moonbat Brigade™(insert the name of your favorite nutcase here)... I would almost be ready to say "come on over to the Dark Side, for your party has left you behind" to the rational Dems, but the thought of a one-party system here in the States does not sit well with me, a former Russian subject who had the misfortune of growing up under communism.

Amphibious Oldsmobile, Where's-my-pants-dude Ted?
Where's-the-Grand-Dragon Byrd?

FEH!

I'll save my high blood pressure for another day!

They led the charge? That fisks it right then and there!

Lieberman is what I think of as a real Democrat, God love him.

If I were a little more conspiracy-oriented, I'd be inclined to think that the press ignoring people like him, and emphasizing the looney Dems, is actually a plot to get Bush re-elected.

Heh.

After having lost his soul to the Gore Golum and the demon of presidential hubris perhaps he has taken the Zell cure.

I saw his speech on C-Span yesterday -- my favorite channel.

Sadly, he is the only Democrat that still has respect for America, the Military, our institutions and our way of life.

It's not enough for me. You can be sure, however, that everyone in that room *knew* he was totally right. He put the entire assembly to shame. Rumsfeld knows it, Chuck Rangel knows it.

He spoke the truth.

Lieberman is the only Democrat who isn't so hell-bent on defeating Bush that he would throw away truth and the basic values of political decency.

A voice of reason. But let there be no mistake. America has nothing to apologise for even if these prisoners were humiliated. When islam ceases to thrive on a philosophy and culture of humiliating ones enemies (ie anyone who isn't a member of the death cult) THEN we can start apologising.

Is the cockroach preacher who suggesting that anyone capturing a female British soldier can keep her as a slave going to apologise. Too f***g right he won't. And neither will the Americans when they blow his evil brains out!!

How about we stick two fingers up at the arab street and tell them to come back when they've discovered civilised values and found a cure for constant seething.

Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller are the kind of Democrat's that I used to vote for, in fact Zell was my governor here in Georgia. Early on he referred to the Democratic candidates as the "Naive Nine" and stated that he would vote for GWB while still serving as a Democratic senator
(he's retiring.)

I think there are many centrist voters in America that have frequently voted Democrat that now feel the Democratic party has Left them. I know I do.

JL has a solid moral core.

reminds me why I used to think of myself as a Democrat

I'm trying to forget those days. My conservatism grows in direct proportion to my knowlege of life and the world. Liberal Democrat Danny was emotion and intuition driven. He thought he knew it all because he knew the world with his heart. "The heart is never wrong." Conservative me would like to find a time machine to go back and bitchslap that pre-911 me.

Once again, Joe Lieberman demonstrates he was the only Dem candidate for the Presidency that is and behaves as an adult morally, ethically, and intellectually.

Maybe the Dems will realize this AFTER November, but I somehow doubt it.

I was REALLY dissapointed he dropped out just before my state's primary (no party registration, so indies and republicans could vote as well).

Joe's something we don't see much anymore on either side of the isle: a Statesman.

He's from the same mold as Scoop Jackson.

He's from the same mold as Scoop Jackson.

True enough. And those people are now referred to as 'neoconservatives,' FYI.

Amazing that a couple of them are still in the Dem Party, at least in name...

Joe Lieberman is what USED to be called a Democrat..even a Moderate Liberal. Whoever the F**k got hold of the Democratic Party, I dont know. MOST of us agree with Lieberman...on quite a bit of the issues.

Hes a mensch that would have made a damn fine Veep. Remember tho.. Arab Americans were making very nasty remarks and carefully vetted remarks about Lieberman and that he is Jewish and he just might light some Candles at Channukah in the VEEPS residence..(G-d forbid that would ever happen in the WH).

I wonder...Will Lieberman be the LAST one of us that have a chance to be Veep or Prez, cause Arab Americans will exercise veto over our opportunities in America? Will their larger numbers stop us cold in America?

Pretty sad after all this time and love we put in...

Really REALLY missed a good guy. (stance on Pal too soft for me tho) Least for Veep.

I demand and deserve an apology from a Media that...yada, yada, yada

It's so funny watching Righties getting morally indignant about something...funny to watch all their studied, anti-Leftist cynicism go right out the window as they wave their glass of single malt and denounce the malicious, slanted Lefty media...:)

^^^ caters to its most extreme elements ^^^

caters to its most extreme elements

Thanks, Charles. Offhand, I could imagine no higher compliment than being called an extremist by the likes of you...:)

I can't help but be struck by the parallels of history. Almost 100 years ago, TR and company broke away from the Republican Party and formed the Progressive Party (Bull Moose). Although as a movement, the BMP was a dismal failure, perhaps with the increasing polarization in U.S. politics there is room for a more centrist approach (forget the Libs, WP, and all of the other wackos).

But back to Joe---

Yah, he was one of the voices of reason in the deluge dumping on Rummie. Still, he didn't get it right either. Rather than asking for an "apology", he would have been served describing the duplicity in the Arab world. The Arabs can seem to stream in the street anytime Muhatemed is defamed, but when four do-gooder, help the poor-assed Iraqi, Americans are burned alive and strung up, suddenly the Arabs are silent.

FTAW. I remember sitting in the movie Hidalgo thinking, look how far the Muslims have come. I mean, 100 years ago they were living in tents, dealing in the slave trade, killing innocents, abusing women, and acting deceitfully. Today, they're still living in tents, dealing in the slave trade, killing innocents, abusing women and acting deceitfully. Ah, progress!

I bet Lieberman regrets being goaded into making that pledge to Howard Dean (to support whomever the Democrat nominee turns out to be).

Lieberman is a dying breed. Good, decent liberals who put the country first.

And in case you're a liberal (or registered democrat), here's how you can tell if you're just a normal lefty or a loopy, leafy leftist idiot:

You might be a left-wing dipshit if...

:P

Yep...Joes a Scoop Jackson Moderate/Liberal (somewhere along that part of the line) Democrat.

We used to be Democrats arent anymore cause the Democratic Party LEFT us.

We F**n tried to get that party back but it didnt work. That party ISNT what most old Dems with brains and souls and honor want so we are OUT.

Sharpton? Give me a break..shame on YOU..Dems.

I was planning to vote for lieberman until he dropped out. that was a sad day.

my dear husband thinks that a joo-ish president is a bad idea because we jooos shouldn't be in highest positions, it only puts us in in the firing line and more danger of increased islamoterrorism [and naziterrorism]. to which I respond:

what??? could they hate us any more???

"bring it on."

RE: Rummy Grilling

Any event that features Robert "KKK" Byrd and Ted "The Swimmer" Kennedy on the same ticket is de facto lunacy.

An honor/shame society -- the Arab world, and the Muslim world -- is manipulating a guilt society (the US), to obtain advantage. Do not expect any apology, ever, from an honor/shame society -- they don't operate that way. If there is to be an apology, according to the standards of a guilt society, then the apology overall considering what has been happening is due to us. But don't hold your breath; it won't happen.

What is also happening is that the left is using this cynically to exploit it for their own purposes. There is the election, of course, and they are using it for that purpose. And the radical left also wants to disable as much as possible the war on terror, and replace it with an appeasement program. They are using this for that purpose also.

Those who are trying to equate humiliation and nudity on the one hand with massacre of innocents are making a false equation; it is grossly inaccurate and unfair. I charge the left with doing this for political reasons. As for the behavior of the honor/shame society manipulating us, I don't expect anything better from them. But I do expect some rational behavior from the left in this country, and that is not what is happening.

Thanks, Joe.

#39 Rayra

For years, the fastest way of being dubbed a fascist/nazi was to read Soljenitsin... Nothing new there.

perhaps with the increasing polarization in U.S. politics there is room for a more centrist approach (forget the Libs, WP, and all of the other wackos).

Bubbaman, the Repubs ARE the centrists now.

Jefferson and Adams would be doing 360s in their current digs if they saw the big spending and support of anti-First and Second Amendment causes the so-called Right Wing Party has perpetrated in the past few years.

Rx drug coverage? Bush supporting the AWB? McCain-Feingold? Handing public education over to Ted Kennedy? Inordinate pork spending?

Blech.

I dare say the Founding Fathers would have a collective cow if they saw the state of the Union today.

I definitely would've voted for Lieberman if he had been nominated. Party affiliations mean nothing any more, at least to me.

A Jewish president? Sheer ecstasy! The Islamists wouldn't even need to have been defeated then -- they all would have gone out onto the "Arab street" en masse and spontaneously mass-exploded in a cataclysm of self-induced conspiratohumiliaseethingragingmartyrosis!

#43, zombie:

I definitely would've voted for Lieberman if he had been nominated. Party affiliations mean nothing any more, at least to me.

A Jewish president? Sheer ecstasy!

Norm Coleman in 2008!

-dg

#44 Iron Fist

Suffice it to say that I will not permit you (Jews in general) to die alone.

Thanks, but... would you mind surviving with us instead?

And back ON topic:

I've never voted for a Democrat in my life, perhaps in part because the likes of Joe Lieberman and Zell Miller never appeared on my ballot. I'm not saying I definitely would have even then, but there would certainly have been a greater chance if their names had been there instead of Paul "No one's farther left than me" Wellstone.

-dg

#44 Iron Fist

Behind every blade of grass...

i've been hearing the shia and kurds could give two fuckwits about the "torture"--kind of a conflicted but overwhelming sense of turnabout is fair play seeing their sunni overlords take it up the wazoo--revenge is best served on top of a pile of naked sunnis --topped off with a leash

Was just browsing yahoo news page and stumbled upon this perfect example of how AP is 'impartial' in it's news reporting:

[Link: story.news.yahoo.com...]

[Link: www.stltoday.com...]

Slightly off topic, but the St. Louis Post Dispatch at the link above has a poll re: whether Rumsfeld should stay or go. It is a good place to go to voice which way you think things should be, whatever your feelings. Hope you vote!

Even Limbaugh!! (and that's one self-righteous party-politican partisan pothead! Though he's often right on, excellent in radio and sorta someo0ne I'd like to be more like when I grow up...)

Rush...

#56 Iron Fist

Look, I'll hide behind the tree, you can have the blade of grass.

Mr Pol (#41):

For years, the fastest way of being dubbed a fascist/nazi was to read Soljenitsin

To be fair, Solzhenitsyn did finally out himself as a Jew-hater by penning Russia and the Jews.

hey, have you heard?

Iraq never had anything to do with 9/11 - seriously!

That apology should be issued by Bush's good friend and ally Saudi Arabia, should it not? Why did Joementum bring it up in a hearing about torture of Iraqi prisoners? He must be confused.

@58 Mr. Pol

LMAO!

You know he probably could effectively hide behind a blade of grass. :)

Arrived at shul this morning to find cops at the door watching everything. Our synagogue, Etz Chayim and another synagogue Sharey Zedek were hit by vandals last night who spray painted the place with anti-Semitic graffiti.

So who's gonna apologise for that? It was the day of the celebration of the graduating class from the local Jewish school. Who's going to apologise to them for that humilation.

Suffice it to say that I will not permit you (Jews in general) to die alone. If they try it here, well, that's one of the reasons we have a Second Amendment.

I can't promise victory, but as long as I have arms and the ability to use them I can promise that we will not surrender.

Thanks Iron Fist. made me feel better, as did the angry outraged cops at the front door.

I wish Lieberman had had a real chance at the nomination. I could have relaxed, knowing I could live with either of the candidates as President. I prefer Lieberman domestically because I, like so many here, am I lifelong Democrat.

I hate to sound like a broken record, but I am feeling more and more estranged from friends and family, and there's not a thing I can do about it. I feel as though they've deserted me and gone crazy (or, gone crazy and deserted me?). And I bet that's how Lieberman feels, only worse, about the entire Democratic party, (except for Zell and a few others). JFK (the first one) would have had to call himself a Republican today, as would Truman and FDR. It's bizarro world.

I nearly fell out of my seat and when he Lieberman said this. It did my heart good to see that there are actual Democrats that would rather not politicize the situation and instead show an appropriate amount of anger directed at the right people. That is, those who did these crimes against the Iraqi prisoners, the Muslim extremist and the terrorists. Bravo Lieberman. Keep being the voice of decent in your party on this issue. You’re a breath of fresh air.

#61 Iron Fist

In what would be a guerilla war, most Americans would be more useful as snipers than anything else. Shoot a few bastards, change hiding place just before being spotted, rinse, repeat. That, basically, is my point: don't die for it. Ensure the poor bastard on the other side does.

#54 partos

I saw that one also. I could not believe the title or opening paragraph. Then, it gets worse.

While the world already has been horrified by pictures of American soldiers abusing Iraqi prisoners,

Has any AP reporter ever expressed any outrage at Moslem [sic] atrocities? That would be "no." Who speaks for the world, ever? AP, when the target is the United States.

AP never misses a chance to mention the "V" word.

Political scientist James Thurber of American University likened the Iraq images to the infamous Vietnam pictures of a naked young girl fleeing a napalm attack and a Viet Cong prisoner being executed on a Saigon street.

The "prisoner" being executed on a Saigon street had massacred a family moments before.
Even the NYT Admits it

Mr. Loan insisted that his action was justified because the prisoner had been the captain of a terrorist squad that had killed the family of one of his deputy commanders.

Funny how the LLL picks and chooses when morality applies.

I said it during the primaries, and I'll say it again now, Lieberman is the only chance in hell the Dems have of getting fence-sitters. I was also on the, "well, if he gets the bid, it might be real hard for Dubya... I might even vote for him". Figures the ultra-libs would cast him aside. I wish he'd move on over... some days I even think we should just even trade him for McCain. He is an oasis of sanity in a desert of nonsense. Bless him.

I thought Joe Lieberman was a pretty decent guy until he hooked up with the gorebot. Then he started straddling every issue just like him. It was almost painful to watch him pull his punches just to fit in with Gore.

He's still a good guy, though. (See his strong words from yesterday.) But his judgement is not as sound as I once thought, especially when he came out for Dean.

I guess the best defense since we aren't able to predict the future is to be flexible.
My greatest fear about Kerry, is he is not serious about being president. Oh he wants it, but he will be like the proverbial dog that runs after cars biting at the tires. He wont know what to do with it once it's his. That is the frightening part. He's not wise enough to realize he's getting in over his head, and will not even fill his cabinet with people who would cover his @ss effectively.
I think we would survive, and I think we would see him also a one term president. But, we can also know we're looking at some very unpleasant situations. As the terrorists will take full advantage of attacking us again, because once again we'll just be a paper tiger, lead by a confused, scared little man.
How unpleasant to think of, four years of being kerresqued.

#68- Beagle

Funny how the LLL picks and chooses when morality applies

Yep. And it seems like we better get used to it. Most of my friends are fixing to have me committed for "turning to the dark side"... a little something I like to call 'gestational conservatism'... (as I have more and more kids, the more and more conservative I get... on the upside-- I'm breeding, and they are not). ;-)

the Repubs ARE the centrists now

Well, measurably so. I guess I miss Ronnie's charisma.

OT Judith - what city are you in - that your synagogues were vandalized?

EE--

You're right, and I'm really ticked off at Bush & Company for not taking this line and turning the issue around. Now that the Bush administration has apologized, it's time to demand apologies from the Arab states whose people have cheered the murder and mutilation of Americans and Israelis, sent jihadis to Iraq to kill Americans, et cetera.

In every other context, the Bushies' response to criticism is to attack the critic. But evidently the Arab states are above criticism.

Feh.

@72 nicfic

Keep up the good work! That's one great way of being patriotic. :)

We are not alone, hon. Cling to that

I do thanks, that and the reaction of several Israelis present. They just shrugged and made a comment about how easily a suicide bomber could get past those cops and how little they know about real security and how irrelevent a little graffitti is. They then kept right on eating and having a good time.

What incredibly tough people!

quark--
Thanks, and we're not done yet. I figure it is the least I can do for my country! ;-)
Also, think your comments on Kerry were spot-on and completely illustrate the general feeling of distrust on The Kerry.
Someone much wiser than me wrote this here at LGF about him, and I think it perfectly illustrates the levels of distrust he creates:

Kerry:

Antiwar Veteran
Pro-choice Catholic
Environmentalist SUV Owner
Internationalist Patriot

OT Judith - what city are you in - that your synagogues were vandalized?

Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada

After the celebration my daughter and I walked home and we stopped outside and looked at the graffitti and my daughter said to me, "I don't get it, Mom. The hate. We're smart, creative, law abiding, contributing members of this society. We have more doctors, lawyers, teachers, successful business employing huge numbers of nonJewish people in this city, and more scientists and politicians per capita than any other religious group." She shrugged and added, "No wonder they hate us. F*ck em." and then she walked away with her head up as tough as any one of those Israelis who kept right on partying. I was so proud.

@78 nicfit

I think I mispelt your nic earlier. :)

That sums up kerry in one small ball of wax. I couldn't have described him better if I tried.

I

#72 nicfit

Good name. I was a nicotine baby myself. I once told a doctor that and she said "you people (what? are you a vet part time?) are always blaming your mothers." Eh? "Sounds like a personal problem," I didn't say. By the time I knew about nicotine leading to premature birth I was fully grown and healthy.

Congratulations. My wife has had surgery, surgery, surgery, etc. She deserves a Purple Heart. We have three liberal dogs and two reactionary cats.

Here is how I feel about anykind apology!
http://www.sk2k.com/-wtc/wtc-person-jumpng-photo-1 7-25-orig.jpg

All day I have been reminding myself of how I felt that day. And for the life of me I can't understand why those images are not broadcast everyday into American homes is beyond me! Instead we get sedition.

#82 Beagle-
LOL! (about the pets, not the surgeries) Yeah, I hear ya about the nicotine baby thing, it's a wonder any of my generation (born in the 70s when you could smoke in the grocery store while buying a six pack at 8 months prego) survived! You'd never have guessed it with with all our knowledge now.
My nic comes not only from a nasty habit, but also from my given name, nicolle, and my undeniable penchant for fits, paticularly over politics. So anyway! Take care of those pets, would you? They know not what they do... ;-)

#81 Quark-
No worries on the name, I didn't even notice. I guess that is an awful admission of my lazy reading habits, or else it just is really late for me! I was just so happy to finally get someone to reply to me here at LGF! Thanks, I feel so validated! HAHA

Goodnight, all! And Happy Mother's Day to all you fabulous LGF Moms out there!

John (#83),

And for the life of me I can't understand why those images are not broadcast everyday into American homes is beyond me!

Major media, has an agenda, and it isn't promoting America or America's interests.

G-d bless you, Joe Lieberman.

His thoughts are mine exactly.

Judith - my heart goes out to you and G-d bless your daughter.

I'm sorry but Canada has been irking me a lot and if I had a giant saw I'd cut it adrift over to France.

I've fired off letters to the Canadian Ambassador to let him know what we think- FWIW.

Ironically, in every country where there are strict gun laws, Jews get beat up first. One of the first things the Nazis did in Germany was to ban the private ownership of firearms.

Thank G-d I live in a country which has a second ammendment.

Who is owed an apology?

Every mother's son or daughter that had to leave home and clean up the world's fuckin mess I'd say. Starting with S. Anderson of the 3rd Cav.

world, OWN UP and get some balls. You too KOS. Own up and grow a real pair Scaramanga KOS.

John, #89

What do imagies of people jumping from the WTC have to do with whether or not we should apologize about torturing and abusing Iraqi prisoners, many of whom were at the wrong place at the wrong time? Is it some moronic equation like, 9/11=Muslim=Patriot Act=Saddam=war=okay to torture Irtaqi prisoners at whim?

I mean, we went there on the moral high ground, as liberators. To say that it's okay for us to abuse prisoners because Al Qaeda did bad things to us -- hell, if that is our official position, we are f*cked. Remember, this was all about winning hearts and minds. Look deep into your own heart. Is this the way to win hearts and minds? Is it?

One of the best-kept secrets of modern history is that the September 11 split the Left in two -- and that includes the Democratic Party.

Before the Left took over the Democrats, the anti-American LLL types took over the Left. I'm not sure how it happened, but it happened in the fall of 2001. For example, there was a time when Nelson Mandela actually supported the liberation of Afghanistan, but during the Afghanistan War he came under severe pressure from the South African Left, especially the Communist Party, and he switched sides.

Right now, the Democratic Party is split between diehard leftists who hate America and party managers who go through the motions of waving the Democratic banner without any enthusiasm. During the primary/caucus campaign, the party activists hated Bush so much that they tried to imagine who ordinary Americans would vote for.

Howard Dean was so radioactive that even hardcore leftists were concerned. Joe Lieberman wasn't going to go anywhere because he came across as "Bush Lite". Wesley Clark had some popularity, but he is VERY VERY scary; given his track record, Howard Dean would be a saner candidate. John Edwards was very popular among centrists; he's a lot like Bill Clinton except that JE's more slick and he's seems like a much better liar. In comparison to the other candidates, John Kerry came across as sincere, honest, earnest, and genuinely patriotic in a self-flagellating liberal way. So, leftist Democratic activists settled upon John Kerry because they imagined that his war record would bring in the "patriotic vote". Mistake.

The "Dean Surge" of late 2003 may have been an internet illusion, but it mattered. Howard Dean not only won control over the Democratic Party's agenda, but he showed the Democratic brass a new way to raise millions of dollars. By the end of 2003, most Democratic candidates pandered to Dean activists; this way, party activists effectively trumped rank and file voters. On the face of it, Howard Dean's campaign went into a tailspin in the Iowa primary. But John Kerry had reinvented himself in the meantime, turning himself from a nobody to a "Dean-Lite" candidate with military credentials that trumped Wesley Clark's.

I think John Kerry is a loser; I won't vote for him. To be fair, though, he is probably the only Democratic candidate with any possibility of balancing the anti-war faction with the moderate Democrats. His tendency to flip-flop is at least as much a function of the internal politics of the Democratic Party as his own indecisiveness. I don't think he will succeed in keeping both factions happy, but that has less to do with his personal failings and more to do with the inherent weakness of the Democratic Party ever since 1968.

Vietnam, in American politics, seems to be less about the actual Vietnam War than it is about the anti-war (and anti-American) Left's hijacking of the Democratic Party. The bitter irony is that a Democratic challenger would be more likely to win against a Republican if he told the Left to go jump in a lake and drown instead of having to put up with the incessant demands of George Soros & Company.

To make a long story short, the Deaniacs have finally showed the Democrats that actual voters don't really matter; it's more important to get media attention, megabucks, a cadre of leftist maniacs, and the endorsement of Gary Trudeau.

Well, W and Rice are both publicly defending Rumsfeld: from the Sunday NY Times:

May 8 - Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld retains "the strongest possible support" from President Bush and the White House, the national security adviser, Condoleezza Rice, said Saturday, a day after Mr. Rumsfeld testified for six hours in Congress about the abuse by Americans of Iraqi prisoners.

"The president strongly supports Donald Rumsfeld and so do his colleagues, and I strongly support him," Ms. Rice said in an interview. "He's doing a good job as secretary of defense in one of the most challenging periods in American history."

Separately on Saturday, Vice President Dick Cheney said through his spokesman, Kevin Kellems, that "Don Rumsfeld is the best secretary of defense the United States has ever had. People ought to let him do his job." The remarks, which Mr. Kellems offered to The New York Times, were Mr. Cheney's first public words of support for Mr. Rumsfeld, one of his oldest friends.

Asked about the calls for Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation, Ms. Rice said that "what the president expects, and what the secretary's doing, is getting to the bottom of what's happened. This is an awful situation." She added that Mr. Rumsfeld was making changes "to fix the problem."

The administration's communications offensive for the beleaguered Mr. Rumsfeld came as Democrats continued to call for his resignation and speculation raced through Washington about whether Mr. Rumsfeld would survive in his job. Mr. Rumsfeld himself fed the storm on Friday when he said in his hearing before the Senate Armed Services Committee that "if I felt I could not be effective, I'd resign in a minute," and that it was "possible" that his stepping down would lessen the damage to America's image overseas.

Ms. Rice appeared intent on showing that Mr. Rumsfeld still had the backing of Mr. Bush. She took issue with a report in The New York Times on Saturday that quoted a person close to her as speculating that she might not be unhappy if Mr. Rumsfeld resigned.

Ms. Rice, who has had a history of tension with Mr. Rumsfeld over Iraq and the occupation, said in the interview on Saturday that the responsibility for the occupation, which has been marred by continued bloodshed and political unrest, lay not just with the Pentagon and Mr. Rumsfeld, but with the president's entire national security team. Last October, Ms. Rice assumed the lead role in the reconstruction and occupation of Iraq as head of a newly created Iraq Stabilization Group.

"This is a shared responsibility in what's going on in Iraq with all of us," Ms. Rice said. "There's the good and the bad. It's a difficult time, everybody knows it's a difficult time."

Ms. Rice also countered the argument of many Democrats that a resignation by Mr. Rumsfeld, or his dismissal by the president, would send a strong signal overseas about how seriously the United States takes the prison abuse scandal.

"The way to send a signal, and to show the world that we take this seriously, is to act, and to have our actions be commensurate with the very grievous nature of this," Ms. Rice said. "We know the seriousness of this. But the way you deal with this, the way you send a signal, is that you show how strong democracies react when something like this happens."

Ms. Rice said that the actions of the United States - investigations into the scandal, the public interrogation of Mr. Rumsfeld, and a military environment that permitted a soldier to come forward with evidence of the abuse - distinguished America from some other parts of the world. "The response has demonstrated how democracies handle situations like these differently," she said. "You don't have in dictatorships young soldiers who come forward to their superiors to expose behavior they believe to be wrong. You don't have a Congress to ask tough questions of the administration. You don't have investigations."

Although the president's words set off a furor of debate in Washington about whether Mr. Bush meant to diminish his powerful defense secretary to the extent that he would have to resign, Mr. Bush since then has voiced increasing support for Mr. Rumsfeld. On Monday, Mr. Bush is to make a rare visit to the Pentagon for a briefing on Iraq, and is expected to make a strong show of support for Mr. Rumsfeld there.

A White House official said that Mr. Bush had not extensively discussed Mr. Rumsfeld's case at Camp David on Saturday. The official, asked if Mr. Bush would ever accept Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation, replied, "It's just not even a viable question."

The official, asked if Mr. Bush would ever accept Mr. Rumsfeld's resignation, replied, "It's just not even a viable question."

Bless him.

Here's an interesting story on the mixed
reaction to the photos among some Iraqis in Washington state.

Correction: I think I was mistaken about Lieberman endorsing Dean. Did he even endorse Kerry? Oh, well. He's still a good guy.

You ought to see how a lot of people on the Leftist websites are ripping into him.

When did the liberal Left become such a haven for anti-Semites?

Judith -

I'm glad those cops don't understand real security. I dread the day when they will actually need to.

Iron Fist -

Hopefully, you will never need to prove your words.

Dems -

Please retake your @#$#ing party.

-ron

Bush’s grovelling apologies were a mistake, putting New Iraq and soldiers lives at risk. The West must learn, like Chamberlain after Munich, Israel after Oslo, dictatorships only respond to force.

The West governs by polite, reasoned discussion, the Middle East mostly by cruel and brutal dictatorship.

Seeing the world’s military chief beg forgiveness diminishes his power and gives hope to thugs looking for signs of weakness.

As in 1938, the West sleeps in naive wish-fullness, hoping reason will bring peace. Not a bit of it. Britain's betrayal of Checkslovakia only made Hitler bolder. Offering Arafat most of his demands, saw him return to Gaza to call for the destruction of Israel in all-out, holly war.

After the Coalition deposed the Middle East’s most despotic dictator, much of the Middle East turned on the liberators, and with wounded pride, attempted to kill them.

Bush need state facts only. Yes it was wrong, yes we’ll arrest the idiots who did it, no we’re not going to grovel or apologise for the actions of a few. We’re proud of what we’ve done and we'll continue helping Iraqis gain freedom.

Israel’s eagerness to parley emboldened Arafat’s military ambitions. Eight years of weak, vacillating Clinton leadership, shackling the CIA, rejecting military force, doubtless roused Al Qaeda to action.

There is a time to talk and a time to kill enemies. America Liberated Europe and Asia with death and destruction, not apeals to reason. Public displays of self-deprecation may bring joy to the Left, embolden frightened dictators and gladden the hearts of ambitions Mullahs, they may also loose America the war.

The Middle East is ruled by fear, not democratic reason. The Iraqi people's break for freedom is not helped by attempts to pacify the oposition with apologies.

America:

Behind every blade of grass

Behind every living tree

There is one of you

There is one of me

And above us all

Flies the flag of the free

Saith the flag

“Don’t Tread On Me”

"Palestine":

Tree: "There is a Jew hiding behind me, o Muslim. Kill Him."

Joe Lieberman statement followed the fallacy of misdirection.

He stated facts that were not relevant to the issue.

On a micro level (the soldiers directly involved) and on a macro level (those making policy that created this enviroment), the effect was detrimental to the reasons for war.

#96 Pickled British Blog 5/9/2004 03:25AM PST

"Bush need state facts only. Yes it was wrong, yes we’ll arrest the idiots who did it, no we’re not going to grovel or apologise for the actions of a few. We’re proud of what we’ve done and we'll continue helping Iraqis gain freedom."

The damage has been done and the damage control is putting more gas on this uncontrolled fire.

This is not simply a military war but a more important war of perceptions that are confirmed by the realities.

You percieve that "freedom" is being given to Iraq, that perception is irrelevant if the Iraqi don't see a 500lb bomb and pictures of humiliation, rape , tortue and murder as freedom.

#99, DS

Man, you're obessed with those 500lb bombs.

Go here, [Link: www.fas.org,...] and see that there's much more variety in the US ordnance.

##98, 99 DoubleStandard--

You have fallen into the same error as Israel's critics. Before these prison photos came out, the Arab media throughout the Middle East was portraying the USA as brutal occupiers, wanton murderers, rapers of women, defilers of mosques, etc. The new photos gave this campaign a boost, but didn't really change anything.

The fact is that the US has taken thousands of casualties, including hundreds of deaths, in an effort to help Iraqis to build a civil society and a free nation. Those who lie about American motives (like those who deny Israel's desire for peace) are our enemies.

Apologies are fine so long as they do not take the focus off of identifying, and defeating, our enemies. Lieberman seems to have a far better grasp on this than do most politicians of either party, including the ones running this war. And if you can't see the relevance of a reminder of why we are fighting, and of what our enemies are capable of, and if you can't see the relevance of the fact that our enemies never apologize for their atrocities, then you need to take off the moral blinders.

#98 Double standard

What Joe Lieberman said is certainly relevant if the premise is that the world expects the US to adhere to a higher standard than the rest.

It is, in fact, a *double standard*.

If I had a dollar for every time I've heard that Americans think they are superior etc. I'd be rich. And yet, the same people that make this complaint want to hold Americans to a higher standard than their enemies.

Maybe you can explain this convoluted thinking.

If I raised my two sons like this, they'd be some screwed up individuals.

I would be voting for Lieberman this fall, for sure. With Kerry, I'm undecided. And I really dislike Bush in many ways, so for me to say that I would consider voting for him over a Democrat says a lot about how far astray the Democrats are. I dislike your average liberal on campus as much as I disliked Young Republicans in my high school in the 80s. It is a sick and twisted world when those two groups can switch places.

101 103 -
(Shhh... don't respond to him and maybe he'll think that he isn't here.)

#105

LOL!

Blog: The Dem. Party is nowhere NEAR where it was years ago. Not the same Party..almost shouldnt be able to use its name.

The reason your family might not be able to give up on the Party is that especially for Jews, it was part of their IDENTITIY and definately part of our early HISTORY here in America. Hard to realize that this huge part of our lives, our parents lives, our GRANDparents lives, is totally gone..THE Dem Party is GONE.

Jews voting Democratic is waaay MORE COMLICATED than most of you all think and thats why you dont see Jews leaving the DP willy nilly. Took ME a huge long time to even think of myself as something other than a Democrat. We, Jews and others, were also under the impression that we could get our Moderate Party back..but, as it sets up now demographically, I think thats a pipe dream. We may get it back now and then like the DLC (or something like that) but it will ALWAYS been this huge fight.

JFK, Scoop Jackson..Truman..etc. That was the MIDDLE and the USUAL of the Dem Pary and thats where many of us were. Not so now.

Your Party...can be an intregal part of your Identity and so.. its not so easy to switch right away... This will DEFINATELY change for Jews with the last couple generations of Jews. The younger group didnt grow up with Liberalism ONLY as a touchstone in their lives.(no Labor fights, No Civil Rights, No Vietnam, No Womans Rights, Not even Gay Rights to identify with and fight for).

It may take time but IF the GOP can possibly leave so much of Religion OUT of Politics (can they? and doi the rest of the Repubs want to)..then Jews will COME in droves. And DO something about NORQUIST and his crowd. NORQUIST is the new Buchannon...and Buchannon...hes not REALLY REALLY gone..Hes active but without the Label. (BE ASSURED OF THAT)

I'm sorry, but Lieberman's comments are offensive and irrelevant. What does 9/11 have to do with US soldiers and contractors raping and torturing prisoners? Rumsfeld himself said it was going to get worse.. apparently pictures and video exist of dogs attacking prisoners, children being raped and prisoners being killed. 9/11 was horrible and no, the perpetrators haven't apologized, aren't we much, much better than that? Nothing can justify the behavior at Abu Ghraib and Lieberman's equivocation and attempt to excuse it is disgusting. I wish some real Republicans would take a stronger stand against this instead of trying to minimize it.

That's me above -- I didn't realize someone else was posting here as Reaganite. Maybe this one will be OK?

[R]eaganite, Where are you posting from?

Reaganist (#109),

Never mind, I didn't think you sounded like reaganite.

I think its MANDATORY to know who took the pictures? WHo are they, whats the deal? Whats the story behind taking pictures in a Military Prision? The MORE I hear of this...the more I wonder. (Politics or MONEY?) Somethings NOT KOSHER. I dont know...just not kosher somehow.

Im also not happy with.."Its not the KIDS fault". Not ONLY some of this their fault but they arent little KIDS --and they knew what they were doing"...Either someone is nekid..or he isnt. Either you are pointing and laughing at his schlong or you arent. This isnt Rocket Science. Its their fault, the the people above them, its possible the people a few MORE levels up. Maybe to the TOP of the Military there.

Funny have I HEARD the name of the Arab American General thats in charge of the entire deal there? NOT A PEEP. Isnt THAT interesting--- come to think of it. Sometimes its NOT what you hear that stands out..Its what you DONT hear that tells ya something.

Rumsfeld YES...Wolfowitz..most definately YES (they are going to get him out of this Administration using this scandle or die tryin) Veep?..who knows...but the head of the Military there? Bupkas remarks AS IF he wasnt even there at all.

If Lieberman had won the Democratic nomination, then I would have had a real choice in November. But with Kerry, I don't have any viable alternatives to Bush...

If Joe had won the nomination, Bush would be making retirement plans, "Our friends the Saudis" would be shitting themselves, and certain Freepers would be demonizing LGF as an evil Demon-Rat blog.

An alternate world and it was within reach.

Folks, read this Iraqi blog posting by Ali at Iraq the Model: Abu Gharib, other parts of the picture.

Don't know if this was mentioned above - didn't read everything - but many in the Democratic Party are getting fed up with Kerry. There might be some surprises at the Democratic National Convention. Maybe there might be a call for Joe.

Now, that's how it should go if the world were normal and sane. Or, should I say, if most of the Democrats were normal and sane.

Wonder if Joe would accept a post in a Bush government.

P.S. I used to spend some Shabbats at his house in New Haven.

Im also not happy with.."Its not the KIDS fault". Not ONLY some of this their fault but they arent little KIDS --and they knew what they were doing"...Either someone is nekid..or he isnt. Either you are pointing and laughing at his schlong or you arent. This isnt Rocket Science. Its their fault, the the people above them, its possible the people a few MORE levels up. Maybe to the TOP of the Military there.

Actually, this is a relevant point.

"I was just following orders" is no more of a defense now than it was at Nuremburg. Back in the day, when I was in the service, sailors ('cause that's what I was) were required not to carry out an illegal order (a little more info here).

I'm a little disappointed in the people involved here. Preventing torture and abuse of POWs is not just the job of the top brass - it's the job of everyone in the chain of command.

That said, a few bad apples don't spoil the whole bushel. Our military folks, in an overwhelming majority of cases, have performed - and behaved - in an exemplary fashion.

Chaya #116,

Sadly there is no way that the convention is going to go for Joe or anyone like him. Kerry is the choice and for Democrats like me who stay in the party precisely because we define ourselves as Truman--Kennedy--Jackson--Moynihan--Lieberman Democrats, the convention will be unwatchable.