First!

He's an idiot. Always has been.

It's also a code word for the liberal left too.

Fritz Hollings falsely singled out Krauthammer as a neo-con too.

One good thing, I won't have to watch his talking head on TV anymore.

First ?

Pretty good evidence here that, for creatures like Buchanan, the term “neocon” has become a synonym for “Jew”—because there is absolutely nothing neo about Charles Krauthammer’s conservatism.

Well, Charles, this vile spew targeting Pat "Teddy Bear" Buchanan is obviously a manifestation of the deep bigotry and vileness that is the miasma of your consciousness.

(/Gordon)

I despise this man.

He represents all of the VERY WORST of this country, IMO.

There was a time when I thought that Pat Buchanan was just a xenophobe, not a Jew-hater. Those days are over.

'The war is deeply about sex'?

That's news to me. I thought it was about violent Islamofascist intolerance, of which sexual oppression is only a symptom.

But that doesn't change the point here - Buchanan is the dictionary definition of paleo-con.

I utterly despise Pat Buchanan. He is anti Semitic to his rotten core. There are some issues I used to agree with him on, however his rag of a so called magazine, the misnamed "The American Conservative" reads like a poor mans version of T"he Nation."

It is sad to see Buchanan implode like this, but he's been an idiot for a long time. I used to appreciate his toughness in the 60s and 70s, but his crack about the "amen corner" lost it for me. Now he's just a crank and a bore.

Pat Buchanan serves as a reminder of why the left in this country is where it is. They took a hard left turn in the seventies. They made another hard left turn in the 80s. Then, after 2000, they made another hard left turn.

Is any wonder that after three hard left turns, the left in this country now finds itself in the exact same place as the far right?

Hey patty here are some values:

How about being able to drive a car in the well oiled street of saudi arabia.

how about not have to wear a black mumu (burka) when a perfectly good string bikini would do the job quite nicely- at least she would have the option!

How about voting? Which mullah do you prefer?

How about sitting at home and watching TV because you want to and not because you have to!

Tom:

Dundalk Ontario?

Proof that moonbattiness is not limited to the LLLs.

What is Patty-patty Buke-buke's (tm John McLaughlin) view on the US entering WWII? Does he think we should have stayed home after Dec 1941? If not, does he think we should have entered the war if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor?

for a good purview on how the sexuality of women and the war are interlinked go to Daniel Pipes and his article on this subject!

[Link: www.danielpipes.org...]

I wish Woodward and Bernstein would just come out and tell everyone that Pat Buchanan was Deep Throat instead of waiting until he passes away.

He is the only one left from that administration that is still alive that is slimey enough to betray his President.

Sorry to go OT so fast but:

Islamic leader disappears: Former inmate faced deportation

Manhunt for Islamic militant

Muhammed Metin Kaplan had disappeared from his Cologne home when police came to arrest him last night, shortly after the court in Muenster overturned a ruling that he was unlikely to get a fair trial in Turkey and allowed his extradition.

Turkish authorities allege that Kaplan, 51, masterminded a failed 1998 plot to crash a plane laden with explosives into the mausoleum of modern Turkey's founder, Mustafa Kemal Ataturk.

11 V the K - good one.

I think anyone who is pro-war these days can get labeled a neocon.

But what precisely is the definition of a neo-conservative? From what I've read, it's usually associated with those who advocate attempting to foment democratic change in the Middle East.

But obviously there's much more too it than that.

I unconditionally reject the use of the vague weasel-word term "antisemitic."

Let's insist on the accurate, honest, no-holds-barred adjective "Jew-hating."

And don't that just fit old Pat to a T? Yessir, shore nuff.

Am Yisroel Chai, y'all.

Rico in Plano

There are two words, which effectively describe Pat Buchanan: OLD SHMUCK. While he's right on some social and economic issues, his foreign policy views are wacky and infected with Arabism.

#16 BIG:

That if there was a Deep Throat, and Woodhead and Bernstain didn't just make him up from snippets of gossip and the usual "unnamed sources". Those two clowns could have been trendsetters for the Jayson Blair generation.

Buchanan and Gore must have crashed into each other at the insane intersection when Gore took too many lefts.

#19 BPP

Neo conservative is supposed to describe someone who used to be on the left but came around to the cons4ervative point of view due to anti Communism, etc. However people such as Krauthammer, Bill Kristol, Mark Steyn, and others (including myself) were never leftists to begin with.

For all intents and purposes, neo Conservative is a code word for Jewish Conservatives.

#19 BPP:

I think anyone who is pro-war these days can get labeled a neocon.

I think anyone who is pro-war ever needs a new hobby.

Could you perhaps rephrase that? Something like, "I think anyone who supports Bush's pursuit of our enemies can get labeled..."

I'm just sayin'...

When you see the world Neo-Con, It means Jew hatred. Whether it's Buchannan, Zinni or Thurmond. It also means Arab money is somehow involved. What's a few dead Jews, when you can get millions of dollars from the Arabs.

Buchanan is yet another example of the derangement that is becoming more and more common with those that suffer from BDS / ABB.

It is not entirely the purview of the el cubos either - there are plenty who let their hatred poison their souls and minds - and then fall into intellectual and moral bankruptcy.

I find it humourous that so many enemies of the right now use the term neocon as a term of ridicule. It's as if they are trying to redefine the term as they redefine history - in their own warped image.

Neocon 101

Those on the far left dispise neocons because neocons aren't ashamed of the US - it's wealth, it's power, and it's values. They also dispise neocons because of the focus neocons have on maintaining military strength and using it when needed to respond to threats.

Those from all sides of the spectrum also dispise neocons because neocons share a strong support for Israel - which drives the anti-semites and zionist conspiracy idiots crazy.

This is where Buchanan and the el cubos reach so far around the extreme ends of the spectrum - that they actually reach and embrace each other.

#14 Lapsed Leftist

What is Patty-patty Buke-buke's (tm John McLaughlin) view on the US entering WWII? Does he think we should have stayed home after Dec 1941? If not, does he think we should have entered the war if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor?

Actually, about a month ago I watched a History Channel program about 20th century wars in which they had Buchanan on as a guest commentator during the breaks. He argued against American "intervention" in both WWI and WWII, on the grounds that they weren't our fight. I can't remember if anything was mentioned about Pearl Harbor, because the host and Buchanan were concentrating on Europe and arguing with each other over whether these two conflicts were merely "European" wars, and we should have sat them out (the host was against this POV).

#13

Maryland

#11 V the K

Is any wonder that after three hard left turns, the left in this country now finds itself in the exact same place as the far right?

I don't consider Patty Patty Buke-Buke to be right wing. I don't see him as "conserving" American tradition. Rather, he's a neo-protectionist anti-semite who goes against our best traditions

Did anyone catch the President speaking up...?

[Link: www.johnkerry.com...]

Statement from John Kerry on Anti-Semitic Statements by Saudi Government Officials

May 05, 2004

For Immediate Release
Los Angeles, CA

Today Democratic Candidate for President John Kerry issued the following statement on anti-Semitic statements by Saudi government officials.

“Saudi Arabian Crown Prince Abdullah’s outrageous anti-Semitic comments this week blaming ‘Zionists’ for the terrorist attacks in Saudi Arabia raises serious questions about the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia’s commitment to combating terrorism. “President Bush has said nothing. As President, I will never permit this kind of attack to go unanswered.”

Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, and all the rest of these finger-wagging, holier-than-thou thugs would be quite at home under Shari'ah law.

Except for a little thing called dhimmitude... which they might even be willing to tolerate if they could boss the rest of us around under penalty of hand-chopping, ear-lopping and public stoning.

These goons are as much the enemy as Sadr and Hamza. No exaggeration.

OT now that Gore thread is deceased:

Anyone find it odd that he claims the Prison Abuse in Abu Ghraib made our country "less safe" and therefore, Rumsfeld should resign?

I dont know about most terrorists, but I'd be far less likely to fuck with a torturing, abusing, humiliating US than a "humane" and "law abiding" US.

Say what you will about the abuse, it certainly didnt make us "less safe". In fact, I would think systematic torture (which I dont think actually occurs) would scare the shit out of the terrorists.

What an idiot.

Buchanan's got quite a few admirable beliefs and ideas that I agree with, but I've never understood the antipathy he has for Israel. I think it's just his old-school conservative worldview from the 1930's he's managed to maintain into the 21st century. Where isolation is a viable foreign policy approach. He resents Israel's powerful foreign lobby and views our alliance with a them as inexplicable. It brings a lot of trouble between the US and the Arabs, with few concrete benefits. I know quite a few people who think the same way.

I've never heard him say anything explicitly anti-Semitic before, but you get the feeling he harbors the same prejudices held against Jews that used to be commonplace in America.

#8 Goldie

Here's the Krauthammer article to which Pattie B. was referring.

(You may have to register - free.)

Am I wrong or is this actually a new low for Buchanan?

That was without a doubt one of the most disgusting, hateful, vile things I've ever read in my life, ever.

I feel like I need to take a shower now.

Thank you for pointing this out Charles. Now we know what this Jew-hating cretin is really about, if there was ever any doubt before.

Rather, he's a neo-protectionist anti-semite who goes against our best traditions

In other words, a mainstream Democrat.

#36 Eric Daemer

PB has written far worse. In his shit magazine "The American Cosnervative" the motherless Fascist actually bemoaned Israel's killing of "the poor quadriplegic Sheik Yassin."

Eric Deamer. Check this out. PB denounces the killing of Yassin and his articl eis printed in the anti American, anti Semitic antiwar.com

Bush Outsources Mideast Policy

You will need a double shower after this.

25 The Dread Pirate Gryphon

I think anyone who is pro-war ever needs a new hobby.

OK fair enough. I can see how the term pro-war can be turned into a propaganda tool. Kinda like "pro-life".

Pat Buchanan, however repulsive he may be, does represent a distinct tradition in American politics, with his nativist, protectionist rhetoric. He's a populist, appealing to the baser instincts of the electorate. Anti-semitism has also long been a part of that tradition as well. He's the Father Coughlin of this time.

#40 BPP

PB develoepd his isolationist, anti Semitic streak from his father. his father was a pro Lindbergh, pro Franco, anti FDR, isolationist who felt that Imperial Germany got a raw deal at Versailees in 1919. Buchanan has always had a soft spot in his heart for the Geramny of Wilhelm II and also for the Germany of Hitler.

OT: Follow-up to the terror-advisory earlier in the week. The FBI Is Looking For Truck Bombers.

Of course conservative Krauthammer is speaking for equality for women, for their respect and their inalienable right to function as full members of society. Having set Krauthammer up as a straw man by distorting his message Buchnan proceeds to argue against the case not made.

Still, Buchanan does have something of a point, rhetorical trick aside. A large part of the Muslim world, including women within it, consider themselves morally superior to the West precisely because they go to such lengths to "protect" the "honor" of women and family. Krauthammer sees that position for the neurotic cultural sexism that it is.

Granted the example of Western wantoness is easily construed as explotation and depravity. Britney is not our best ambassador of social sobriety. And it is true that Conservatives do argue against the license and for the family institutional values that the West has abandoned (by the way I believe because of the PILL. NOW and its spawn are really just consequences of the PILL.).

Buchanan points to a conservative parallel with Islam, but that aligning is certainly not a meeting of the conservative and Muslim minds. Conservatives, notwithstanding fundamentalist aberrants, subscribe to the equality of gender in respect to rights, priviledges and responsibilities, but that is in no way the same as the purdah of the home or the inequality of the sexes embedded in Islam, tribalism and honor/shame societies.

Buchanan, as usual, steps on whatever is valid about his point .

HUM-DINGER!!!

Filmmaker Moore Says He Has Footage Of Berg Interview

POSTED: 3:46 pm EDT May 27, 2004

NEW YORK -- Filmmaker Michael Moore, whose incendiary new documentary lambastes President Bush's handling of the war, said Thursday that he has footage unused in the film of Nicholas Berg, the American civilian later beheaded in Iraq.

The footage, of an interview with Berg, "is approximately 20 minutes long. We are not releasing it to the media," Moore said in a statement. "It is not in the film. We are dealing privately with the family."

Neither Moore nor his representatives would describe the nature or contents of the interview with Berg, who held staunch pro-war views.

#16 BIG

He is the only one left from that administration that is still alive that is slimey enough to betray his President.

You mean "besides John Dean"? He's been a pretty active Bush-hater recently

Pat Buchanan is a Democrat!

Arab News? San Francisco Chronicle? Same difference. In the strange bedfellows department, the Chronicle has suddenly discovered Buchannan. Never noticed him before in the 20 years I've been looking at the rag. But now that Pat is on the same side as the Chron (Bush, Israel, Amen Corner, Neocon, Iraq War, Jews are bad, bad, bad), the Chron LOVES him (at least once a week).

Nice to see how comfortable Pat feels in the pages of Arab News. Had this been the 1930s, no doubt Pat would be an isolationist along the lines of Henry Ford and Charles Lindberg.

#37 V the K

In other words, a mainstream Democrat.

Exactly.

#20 Rico

Rico in Plano

Texas or Illinois?

I'm in Plano, TX right now

#5 The Dread Pirate Gryphon: Sometimes I wonder if Gordon is Pat Buchanan. The mainstream left seems pretty comfy with the kook right these days. It's also becoming clear that all those votes for him in 2000 weren't mistakes.

#46 richard senior

19) You have to believe that George W. Bush really won the last election.

It's called the "Electoral College". It's in the Constitution. Get over it.

(Of course, so is the 2nd amendment, and that hasn't stopped them...)

#22 andthenblammo!

All the Presidents Men could have been all fiction, but if you believe that, then a bunch of powerful people went to jail for a lie.

I believe there was an informant from the White House to the media. I could be wrong. I wasn't there. But Nixon didn't resign over made up allegations.

Woodward has said that he will release the name of Deep Throat after Deep Throat dies or he does. Since he made this claim, quite a few of the people involved have passed away. I think there are five or six possibilities for Deep Throat still alive with Pat being the most obvious.

He was one of the first rats to flee the sinking ship. People like Ben Stein stayed to the bitter end. I believe that Pat was a traitor to a President he supposedly loved. He has openly denied being Deep Throat. But it is possible that he is a liar in addition to being a traitor.

to #32...

Uh, do not include Falwell and Robertson in any list with Buchanan...while you may disagree with their social views, (I do not...I am staunchly against the Gay agenda, Abortion etc etc) you had better inform yourself with the FACT that both Mr. Falwell and Robertson are devoutly staunch backers of Israel...and have been for decades...

My secular Jewish inlaw from Houston cannot speak highly enough of these man...and he is far from being a social conservative...as for Swaggert, he is fairly irrelevant but for the record, he was in the past a staunch backer of Israel...

Remember Cato, it was Menachan Begin who said in his writings that the Jews had no better friend on earth outside of World Jewry then Evangelical Christians...

You can despise us all you want for our views on Social Conservatism...but you can never cut us down for our deep support of Israel!

Thanks

Good point, genard. Sometimes we forget that the burq'a and see-through halter tops emblazoned "porn star" marketed at 11 year olds are not alternatives, they are both extremes. Condemning sexual oppression of Islamic cultures should not preclude condemning sexual exploitation in our own culture. And vice versa.

#23 Dman

Buchanan and Gore must have crashed into each other at the insane intersection when Gore took too many lefts.

LOL!

BTW, has everybody read James Taranto's BOTW today? The first bit on Algore, "Guilty Gore Goes Gaga", is freaking hilarious, especially what Maureen Dowd said about him, and Taranto's references to Gore's Vietnam service and PTSD.

Taranto is in rare form today.

#53 TQC: #46 is what is known as SPAM. It will soon be deleted. No need to acknowledge it. Ix-Nay on eeding-Fay the oron-Mays.

#54 BIG

He was one of the first rats to flee the sinking ship. People like Ben Stein stayed to the bitter end. I believe that Pat was a traitor to a President he supposedly loved. He has openly denied being Deep Throat. But it is possible that he is a liar in addition to being a traitor.

Buchanan is only interested in Buchanan.

#57 Ward Cleaver: Didn't make it into the Gore thread yesterday, but did you hear what one of He Who Must Not Be Named's callers said about Al? That he reminds her of the guy that graduated high school, yet still hangs out there in the parking lot. LMAO!

#22 andthenblammo!

But then, Deep Throat could possibly be Nixon administration members Henry Kissinger and Alexander Haig; CIA officials Cord Meyer and William E. Colby; and FBI officials L. Patrick Gray, W. Mark Felt, Charles W. Bates and Robert Kunkel.

All the above would have had better access to information and are still alive. What do I know anyway? I'm just a blogger.

#57 Ward Cleaver

When Maureen Dowd, not exactly a paragon of rationality herself, says Gore represents "the wackadoo wing of the Democratic Party", you know the guy is seriously unhinged.

OK, so let's say half the world is women.

I've been ripped for being a "white man" my entire life by so-called intellectuals who blame me for what the Spaniards did in Fort Matanzas, Manifest Destiny, to the Seminole Tribe. My opinion, that's not relevant to what's going on right now.

I think women should have equal legal rights. They should have the freedom of movement. They should not be killed for so-called "honor" -- known by professionals as seething. The list just goes on and on. What up with these people?

Perle and Wolfowitz are soft-spoken intellectuals by the way. They may be seen on television or read in print form. What people say about them is breathtaking. Nothing against Wolfowitz, but I think Bush could kick his ass. Perle, in one round.

Furthermore, I've never seen any beams shoot out of their eyes. I think Wolfowitz popped few buttons on his way to turning green one time, or I have movie channels.

#52 Model4:

You surely don't think that retired left wing Jews voted en masse for Buchanan?!?!

Clean up in aisle 46.

Make my #64 "retired Jewish Democrats"

[Gore] reminds her of the guy that graduated high school, yet still hangs out there in the parking lot. LMAO!

Oh, man, that is priceless.

This one is hilarious--in a very scary and troubling way: John Kerry says he will fight terror but remain respectful of our allies. What does that mean, exactly? He's going to consult, say, France and Germany before yelling at those nasty Osamists? That he wants to make the world safe for niceness and kindness again? That he wants us all to have sleepovers and pillow fights with our enemies to, you know, make them see how fun it is to be our friend? That he thinks Kofi is just about the swellest guy on the planet?

I beg of you: please defeat this guy.

#55 Albertanator:

I support Israel too, but not for the same reasons that these so-called "Christian Zionists" do. If you read what they actually say about Israel, it comes down to this: they support her because they think from their reading of the Book of Revelation that Jesus can't come back until certain prophecies are fulfilled. That includes various goings-on in Israel.

If they thought it would speed Armageddon, the Apocalypse and the Rapture, these men would be perfectly happy to see all the Jews incinerated along with the rest of the unbelievers. After all, they're going to heaven, right? What do they care what sort of mess is left behind.

I support Israel from a purely secularist point of view, because it's the right thing to do.

These men and their ilk make me retch. I can understand why Israel might prefer such friends to no friends at all, but the Israelis ought to look a little closer at their real agenda. They are as intolerant as Christians ever were, but they want certain things to come about so they support Israel pro tempore. Once Jesus comes back, they believe, all the Jews will either have to convert or join the rest of the unbelievers in hell.

And again, I'd have to say that if they were in power I doubt very much whether their regime would look much different from that of the Taliban.

I like Pat Buchanan.

About the war in Iraq.
There is no reform of the Middle East.

The war should be a punic expedition.

If the war is about nation building
it is doomed to failure.

#70 xenophon

Yeah, Pat's great, except for the Jew-bashing and blindness about Israel.

I can't even be sure what point he's trying to make. Seems like he's on three conflicting "soap boxes" at the same time.

#69 Cato the Elder:

These men and their ilk make me retch. I can understand why Israel might prefer such friends to no friends at all, but the Israelis ought to look a little closer at their real agenda. They are as intolerant as Christians ever were, but they want certain things to come about so they support Israel pro tempore. Once Jesus comes back, they believe, all the Jews will either have to convert or join the rest of the unbelievers in hell.

Oh, I don't think the Israelis have any illusions about their agenda.

It's just that we Jews have a really deep and solid pragmatic streak, and we're not all that concerned with the End Times. If the evangelicals need that to justify their support of Israel as the place where the Jews are supposed to be gathered before the Coming, why, we're happy to have their support.

When Moses and Elijah appear before the Kotel to begin preaching, then we'll worry.

Sorry, way way OT

but I was getting my daily dose of vomit medicine over at DU and saw that someone posted a presidential appoval pole on a local affiliate site. The want all there reader go go and vote no. Hmmm now what can we do with this peice of info...hmmm

[Link: www.nbc10.com...]

on the right hand side half way down.

We should feed Buchanan to the Lions Arabs.

#70 Xenophon

Yeah, Im a little surprised too that the entire Middle East hasn't transformed overnight after 1000 years of oppression, dictatorship, religious zealotry and regressive economic policy.

I thought the effects of this war were going to be instantaneous, kinda like in TV and stuff.

/sarrrcaaasssm

#56

Yes, V the K,

Britney could do with a burqa. I fear she is one lip sync, two dugs, and one wiggly bottom from a clitorectomy if Pat Buchanan has his way.

By the way, for the Christian fundamentalist haters out there, waste no spleen.

This atheist actually sees Falwell and Robertson as believers in the separation of church and state. Granted they would prefer the state to have majoritarian "Christian" values and they both campaign for that outcome. But they seem content with the concept of separation.

I personally think in the history of ideas the notion of the separation of church and state could only have arisen in a Reformation society in which the base religion(Christianity) concentrated on a personal soteriological world view. It is a notion that is very comfortable with a concept of personal salvation, and it is distinctly inconsistent with both Jewish and Muslim views.

John Kerry says he will fight terror but remain respectful of our allies. What does that mean, exactly?

It means France, Germany, and the UN will have veto power over U.S. security interests.

It means more North Korean style nuclear treaties, trading real money and real technology in exchange for fake promises to dismantle WMD programs.

It means apologizing for everything America does, but never admitting personal responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

It means using the military for every "meals-on-wheels" mission in the world, but not for defense of America's interests.

It means refusing to confront terrorists abroad, and spending more money to clean up the blood when they strike here.

It means learning to live with terrorism, instead of combatting it.

(#64 - The Dread Pirate)

I always wondered about that and I also think much of that voting WAS intentional.

The bubbies weren't the only ones voting that day and I think much of it may have been a protest vote.

Also, rolling back the clock to 2000, I don't remember much about Buchanan (from before that time) that you could peg as anti-Semitic.

Many of those votes may very well have been legitimate.

#78

Im sure the terrorists are quaking in their sandals over the "respectful of our allies" part.

#74

I voted. It's running 55-45 for Bush right now.

OT: Al-Qaeda-Iraq link confirmed

Thanks to Lt. Smash

#78 V the K:

Exactly.

"What some of us view as the moral descent of a great and Godly republic into imperial decadence, neocons see as their big chance to rule the world." -- Patrick Buchanan, anti-semite par excellence.

By "neocon" Buchanan means the Jews that he cannot denounce as being liberal.

To Buchanan, his enemies are the Jew-liberals and the Jew-neocons.

The guide that Buchanan follows is: the enemy of my enemy is my friend. He sees that the most anti-semitic segment of the world has its center of gravity in the Muslim world, and so he naturally gravitates toward that center of gravity. What better place to spout than in the PR outlet of the entity that bans all Jews from living there -- Saudi Arabia.

#79 Jimmy the Clam:

I really don't know - for all the info we have, it could have been the result of a mistake or a protest.

What makes me doubt the purposefulness of it, though, is that PB has always been known as an Israel basher. You may not be aware of it, but I guarantee you the bubbies were. AND the zaydes!

Anyone want to speculate as to why Mikey Moore isnt releasing his 20 minute pre- beheading interview with Nick Berg?

Surely its not out of respect for the family, as this POS has no shame.

My guess is that Nick probably expresses some pro-war sentiment. Or, it would be more likely that Moore was trying to show how "mercenary" he was.

#78

V the K, you are dead-on with that analysis. I'd rather fight terrorists in Iraq, instead of New York (or Omaha, or Denver, or Seattle, or ...)

The Israelis game of "Whack-A-Mole" whenever a new terrorist leader emerges seems to be a decent strategy...

#82

ABC News? Ick.

Oh well, at least this is in the mainstream media.

#85 - The Dread Pirate

Good analysis, thanks!

BTW, what's a zayde? :-)

Also, do you know how heavily Jewish that part of Floridia was?

#82 Nothing in the article that confirms a Saddam to al-Qaeda link. Oh well, someday...

#90 Jimmy the Clam:

Bubbie = grandmother
Zayde = grandfather

THIS is a pretty good link for Palm Beach County 2000 election stats re Buchanan.

I must say that I like to see Pat Buchanan exposed for the nazi he has always been.

I am not a neocon, I am more a neo-imperialist (I mean, I couldn't care less about spreading democracy where it is not wanted, we just can use our power to keep the beasts put) but I notice that his remarks about the neocons are the same of the white supremacists and aryan nation and the KKK. In France too the fascists (FN) are against the war in Iraq , against the Bush Doctrine, etc.

He would like a world shared between the islamofascists and the whitefascists like him.

#78 V the K

Excellent analysis and very well said.

I thought Krauthammer's sex essay was rather off-the-wall...that having been said, Pat Puke Cannon's criticism of it is unfair, as usual.

73,

If the evangelicals need that to justify their support of Israel as the place where the Jews are supposed to be gathered before the Coming, why, we're happy to have their support.

Speak for yourself...

[Link: www.villagevoice.com...]

Affiliated with the United Pentecostal Church, the Apostolic Congress is part of an important and disciplined political constituency courted by recent Republican administrations. As a subset of the broader Christian Zionist [sic] movement, it has a lengthy history of opposition to any proposal that will not result in what it calls a "one-state solution" in Israel.

The White House's association with the congress, which has just posted a new staffer in Israel who may be running afoul of Israel's strict anti-missionary laws, also raises diplomatic concerns.

The staffer, Kim Hadassah Johnson, wrote in a report obtained by the Voice, "We are establishing the Meet the Need Fund in Israel—'MNFI.' . . . The fund will be an Interest Free Loan Fund that will enable us to loan funds to new believers (others upon application) who need assistance. They will have the opportunity to repay the loan (although it will not be mandatory)." When that language was read to Moshe Fox, minister for public and interreligious affairs at the Israeli Embassy in Washington, he responded, "It sounds against the law which prohibits any kind of money or material [inducement] to make people convert to another religion. That's what it sounds like." (Fox's judgment was e-mailed to Johnson, who did not return a request for comment.)

...When asked for comment on top White House staffers meeting with representatives of an organization that may be breaking Israeli law, [National Security Council spokesman Frederick] Jones responded, "Why would the White House comment on that?"

#90 Jimmy the Clam:

Palm Beach County has a population of a just under 1,200,000. Of those, approximately 130,000 are Jews.

I could be very very wrong, but I think the whole reason why the "neocon" label even exists is because there is a stereotype that American Jews simply are NOT supposed to be conservatives. LLLs believe this because they think all conservatives are racist nazis, and Buchananites believe this because they ARE racist nazis. So Jews can't be conservatives unless there is a special label to differentiate them from their non-Jewish ideological peers.

87,

I'd rather fight terrorists in Iraq, instead of New York (or Omaha, or Denver, or Seattle, or ...)

They why wouldn't you want our troops fighting alongside allies (like in Afghanistan)?

So Pat Buchanon joins David Duke in writing columns for Arab News. All that is left is for Bob Novak to join them. Then all three writers of the far right wing can vomit their hatred of the US and Israel together!

OT: (Aplogies if this has been mentioned before on LGF)
HISS, MY SUPREME LIZARD LORD CHARLES, HISS
Oh my Supreme Lizard Lord our latest scheme in our fiendish International Lizard-Zionist-Masonic-Skull and Bones Conspiracy to enslave the world and get all the hot babes we want advances. To wit the trial use of the special Lizard Komodo Dragon to terrorize the people of Lebanon is proving sucessful. The Doomed Fools have not spotted the Zionist Markings on the inside of the Dragon's right shoulder. Respectfully request the time has come to unleash our special squadron of Zionist trained Komodo Dragons to utterly terrorize the people of Lebanon into complete surrender to the Lizard Masters! HISS, MY LORD LIZARD MASTER CHARLES, HISS
HIIIHAAA! (Diabolical Laughter!) HIIIHHAAA(Diabolical Acting!)

Actually there have been reports of a Komodo Dragon in Beirut. Check it at [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

Footnote: I put in the Masons, because you cannot have an international conspiracy to enslave the world without them. Skull and Bones fits in too since Bush Sr, Bush Jr. and Kerry all are members of Skull and Bones!

Pat Buchanan enthusiastically recites the work of Holocaust deniers. He presents his false choice between Gay Bathhouses and the Taliban, implying the Taliban as the superior alternative.

It never occurs to him, and to even people who disagree w/ him and embrace the exact opposite of his values, that virtue must be chosen. If you force people to be moral, they will be immoral in rebellion. Liberty leads to the virtue you wish to see embraced. It isn't either/or, libertinism or theocracy. The notion of some future 13 year old daughter of mine getting gangbanged sickens me; that doesn't mean that I want her clitoris cut off or have her wrapped up like a mummy. Neither the far right nor the left seems to understand that, and the Buchanans of the world just seem to confirm that false choice: either you're a slut or a prude.

I do find it ironic that the left, so ravenously trying to jetison any association w/ Nazism and fascism, so worried about being "right wing", equate Bush = Hitler, yet then find themselves aligned on trade and Israel and Iraq w/ the REAL retro-fascists in America, the David Dukes, Buchanans, Southern Law parties, ect. Talk about ignorant.

When Bush speaks of freedom as God’s gift to humanity, does he mean the First Amendment freedom of Larry Flynt to produce pornography and of Salman Rushdie to publish The Satanic Verses, a book considered blasphemous to the Islamic faith?

Um, did Pat Buchanan just support the Ayatollah's fatwa on Rushdie?

I find it abhorrent that people would call putting crucifixes in urine or covering portraits of Christian saints in animal feces "art", but as long as it isn't displayed with my tax dollars or ask me to look at it, they can have at it. (I do believe they will have to answer for these things in the next life).

Pat Buchanan would ban "The Satanic Verses"?

Incredible.

#96 Zionista:

Yeah, I read that article last week (or was it yesterday?) Anyway - and someone please correct me if I'm wrong - HA! like that wouldn't happen here! - I don't think the Pentecostals are the same philosophically as the mainstream American Evangelicals as represented by Falwell, Graham, Schuller and their ilk.

Besides, you're taking the Village Voice as a reliable source of info about Israel?!?!?!

#99 Zionista

They why wouldn't you want our troops fighting alongside allies (like in Afghanistan)?

Oh you mean, like they are in Iraq. Right? Or are we going to get into the "unilateral" canard, again?

Very apropos of this topic:

The Protocols of the Eldars of Zinni

and

Jews on the Precipice

Buchanan is a ludicrous, vicious anti-semite. But when it comes to Abu Ghraib and women, he's got a point...

Dread Pirate Gryphon #73: So for Jews the End Times begins with the return of Charlton Heston er excuse me Moses and Elijah. And what and where is the Kotel, in Jerusalem?

Gryphon (103),

Besides, you're taking the Village Voice as a reliable source of info about Israel?!?!?!

Doesn't Hentoff still write for the Voice? Anyway, it's chock full of enough quotes to support the overall thesis of the article. If you have a dispute with specific points, fine. I have some myself. For example, the article states, "...President George W. Bush reversed long-standing U.S. policy, endorsing Israeli sovereignty over parts of the West Bank in exchange for Israel's disengagement from the Gaza Strip." This is simply not true. George W. Bush's statements regarding refugees and settlements were altogether consistent with President Clinton's Taba parameters.

More Pat Buchanan Neocon Antisemitism

106 Gordon

the point is on your vile and empty head

STFU antisemite asshole

Pat BUchanan and hie ugly as sin sister

I think there is an ugly
relationsip' there

feh

#107 David All:

I'm hesitant top respond only because I don't want to be responsible for hijacking this thread into a dissection of Revelation - but to hit the high points, according to End Times prophecies and Tim LaHaye:

Just before the anti-Christ takes power, the original Moses (NOT Charlton Heston!) and the Prophet Elijah will return to begin converting the Jews - their preaching will take place at the Temple (The Kotel is the Hebrew word for the Western Wall) - and when they have gathered a certain number of Jews, the Rapture will occur and all believers - including the newly saved Jews - will be taken up in bodily form to Heaven to await the time of Jesus' second Coming. The anti-Christ will enslave the world and make everyone miserable until it's time for Jesus to return.

Please note, everyone - I respect these beliefs. I don't believe them, but I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM with you if you do.

Joel at #24 said:

``Neo conservative is supposed to describe someone who used to be on the left but came around to the cons4ervative point of view due to anti Communism, etc. However people such as Krauthammer, Bill Kristol, Mark Steyn, and others (including myself) were never leftists to begin with.''

All very true - and what's even funnier is that Mark Steyn isn't even Jewish! He does have some 'way back Jewish ancestry, but he's mostly Irish. Trying to pin down who's Jewish and who isn't by surname alone is a risky business, especially in America.

#104 RIP Ford 5/27/2004 02:36PM PST

#99 Zionista

They why wouldn't you want our troops fighting alongside allies (like in Afghanistan)?

Oh you mean, like they are in Iraq. Right? Or are we going to get into the "unilateral" canard, again?

If you want to have that argument all alone, knock yourself out.

I'm saying it would be nice to have a real alliance, like NATO serving in Afghanistan, instead of the mostly overstressed US force, patched up with reservists on extended tours and outsourced security firms. Get it?

#114 Zionista

I'm saying it would be nice to have a real alliance, like NATO serving in Afghanistan, instead of the mostly overstressed US force, patched up with reservists on extended tours and outsourced security firms.

Then you should probably have said that. Got it?

#108 Zionista:

Hentoff is one of the few reasons I still read it, but I've never seen an even-handed article about Israel, as evidenced by the quote about Bush. The article may give an accurate picture of what this particular group of Penetcostals is doing in Israel, but I don't think that means it covers the entire pro-Israel evangelical movement.

Gordo and Buchanan - perfect together.

The kernal of pat's point is valid:

This would be a helluva lot easy if we weren't a postmodern pagan state. Sorry, the bellshirts and GGW don't sell in Arabia. Selling american values is alot harder now.

#114 zionleftists

I'm saying it would be nice to have a real alliance,

Please define a "real alliance"? If you mean like the one in Kosvo, you are nuts.

I thought it was only a matter of time before we started seeing some home-grown religious reactionaries find common cause with the Islamists in their hatred of Western culture. Falwell, Robertson, et al. are on the sidelines for now due to their support for a tough foreign policy, and their superstitious beliefs regarding Israel and the apocalypse. But clearly, an anti-semitic nativist like Buchanan has no such inhibitions.

#114 Zionista

I'm saying it would be nice to have a real alliance, like NATO serving in Afghanistan, instead of the mostly overstressed US force, patched up with reservists on extended tours and outsourced security firms.

Do you even have a clue as to how many NATO troops are in Afghanistan - or what they are actually doing?

Besides, 15 of the 26 NATO members have troops in Iraq as part of the coalition.

What makes Iraq something different - because Germany, France, and Canada aren't present in Iraq?

NATO has become almost as big of a farce as the UN is - and is clearly an organization without a real purpose.

#118 charles martel:

We aren't at war because the Taliban and Saddam didn't like belly shirts.

#115 RIP Ford 5/27/2004 02:53PM PST

#114 Zionista

I'm saying it would be nice to have a real alliance, like NATO serving in Afghanistan, instead of the mostly overstressed US force, patched up with reservists on extended tours and outsourced security firms.

Then you should probably have said that. Got it?

It started out as a question. Get it yet?

Buchanan is gay

119,

GAZE

Dread Pirate #112: Thank You: I was just curious. Though I am an active Presbyterian, I am not acquainted with End Times type Theology and do not have much use for it. Yes the End Times will come but I do not see why they should come in our generation or a thousand generations hence. Am more concerned with the World as is and what it may become then with the End Times.

#78 V the K

I like your chances going several rounds with Kerry.

Remember Celebrity Deathmatch with the claymation?

Kerry versus Dominique de Villepin (who is alleged to be a man by sources close to the French administration)

Bush and Arnie versus al Sadr and bin Laden (hmmm? there could be some trouble in that team)

Neo cons versus Pelosi, Kennedy, and McDermott.

Someone needs to do Politicians in the ring WWE style. That would be great. Sorry, if that was a bit OT.

#124 TMF:

Buchanan is gay

If so, he is the ugliest, worst dressed gay dude I have ever seen. Mayhaps that's why he's so angry all of the time...

;-)

#125 zionleftist

GAZE

Wouldn't want you to deviate from Al "I am Gore hear me Roar"Gore talking points.

78 V the K

What a piece of distorted crap

It means France, Germany, and the UN will have veto power over U.S. security interests.

Kerry has specifically said that he would not be beholden to the UN in deciding America's security interests.

It means more North Korean style nuclear treaties, trading real money and real technology in exchange for fake promises to dismantle WMD programs.

Maybe you can explain to me what exactly is so brilliant about the Bush Administration's approach to N. Korea, Iran etc.

It means apologizing for everything America does, but never admitting personal responsibility for anything that goes wrong.

Whatever dude. You just pulled this one out of thin air. Besides, when it comes to not taking personal responsibility, it would be hard to top GWB.

It means using the military for every "meals-on-wheels" mission in the world, but not for defense of America's interests.

Using the military for humanitarian missions is not, as you so contemptuously put it, "meals-on-wheels". Besides, the military has been deployed that way with bipartisan support. What evidence do you have that Kerry plans to increase such missions?

It means refusing to confront terrorists abroad, and spending more money to clean up the blood when they strike here.

This may be the view of some liberals, but show me a quote or a policy from Kerry himself that indicates he doesn't want to confront terrorists abroad. The ONLY thing that he's said is that we should consult with allies more. That doesn't mean give them veto. That doesn't mean let them call the shots. It means consult. Kerry has been clear about what consult means to him.

I realize it's an article of faith among some that there's no difference between Kerry and the antiwar, Eurocentric left, but any such comparisons are only meant to serve one purpose: to distort the positions and record of Kerry and other responsible Democrats for crude partisan purposes. It's fine if you think Kerry's philosophy is wrong, or if you think he's untrustworthy or whatever. But don't base your opinion on distorted caricatures.

#105 Globular Mustard

Excellent Phyllis Chesler article - thanks.

Athos (121),

Do you even have a clue as to how many NATO troops are in Afghanistan - or what they are actually doing?

Educate me. And please include percentages of the forces of individual member-nations in Iraq compared to Afghanistan.
TIA

#78 V the K

Also that the results of the terror hit will be met by police and fire, not soldiers. I think it is still better that we meet the challenge over there, not here. And our response to a hit is closer to where to hit and that drives them all crazy. Makes U.S. look too competent.
my 2 cents

Can't believe no one else has noticed this yet, but its obvious ole Pat has never seen the Life of Brian before asking what America has done.

Reg: All right, but apart from the sanitation, medicine, education, wine, public order, irrigation, roads, the fresh water system and public health, what have the Romans ever done for us?

Attendee: Brought peace?

#133 zionleftists
Which countries are contributing?

ISAF currently numbers around 6,500 troops from 25 allies, eight partner nations and two non-NATO / non-EAPC nations.

breakdown of troops in table on web page

[Link: www.nato.int...]

#14, Lapsed: You're correct, the right does have its moonbats too. The difference is that over the last two decades, the right has done a pretty good job of marginalizing the likes of Buchannon. (Anyone heard from David Duke lately?) On the other hand, over on the left, the moonbats are running the show, and they've marginalized everyone who doesn't 100% agree with them -- even sensible liberals like Roger Simon and Jeff Jarvis

Glad to have your aboard.

#132 Zionista,

Order of Battle - Iraq as of 21 May 2004

Order of Battle 19 May 2004 - Operation Enduring Freedom

Order of Battle - Coalition for Operation Enduring Freedom

Ground Units - Afghanistan

Coalition Ground Elements
U/I element, Australian Special Forces
U/I element, Danish Special Forces 100
U/I element, German Special Forces 100
U/I element, New Zealand Special Air Service 100
U/I element, Norwegian Special Forces
U/I unit, 45 Commando Bn, 3 Commando Brigade, British Marines 1,700 Bagram AF
U/I elements, 45 Commando Bn, 3 Commando Brigade, British Marines 1,700 Kandahar AF
U/I unit, Italian Special MPs 50 Kabul

About - 3750 ground troops in Afghanistan from coalition members vs about 26,500 coalition ground troops in Iraq.

In Afghanistan now - about 7 other nations are represented - 5 are NATO members. In Iraq, there are about 32 nations represented. As the reported earlier - 15 NATO members.

Speaking of neocons...

[Link: www.thestar.ca...]

"I would be the first to acknowledge we allowed the liberation [of Iraq] to subside into an occupation. And I think that was a grave error, and in some ways a continuing error" (Richard Perle, May 26, 2004).

Beagle, Ward, Big L, cam... thank yuh, thank yuh very much. Let me add to Beagle, I'm up if he's up.

#138 zionleftists
Lose an arguement change the subject. LOL

Pat Buchananism represents a political strain of orthodox Roman Catholic thought that has largely (and happily) passed from public life.

It sees economies in terms of 1920s-era manufacturing balance of trade considerations.

It is very, very clannish and parochial. Archtypes are all important. Put this way, Jews are forever seen as foreign and vaguely un-American. The world largely ends at our shores, especially the Atlantic.

Institutions, such as an all-powerful catholic church, unions, the army, the executive branch, are immutable and are to be followed without hesitation. Seen this way, totalitarian states are vastly less threatening than communist ones. The zone of privacy is small. In short, a PB would feel rather comfortable and have some level of comfort with a Jordanian or Saudi Royal; a neo-con Jew would leave him looking for a baseball bat.

PB is a remarkably glib speaker and can write a phrase with the absolute best of them. Think Archie Bunker with solid SAT verbal scores.

But his only connection to the right as it is generally understood here (or today) was his strident anti-communism.

As a Scots-irish catholic, I can recognize this stuff miles away.

Athos,

About - 3750 ground troops in Afghanistan from coalition members vs about 26,500 coalition ground troops in Iraq.

I understand there are about 120,000 US troops in Iraq, including reserve units (I don't know how private security firms break down in this count). That means the US military contribution to Iraq is running at least 80%. What about our economic contribution? But hey, as long as the top 10% get their tax cut, it's just business as usual.

#142 zionleftists
Lose an arguement change the subject. LOL

#142 Zionista

What? Changing the subject?

I'm shocked.

What about our economic contribution?

You, of course, are referring to the economic contribution rebuilding the infrastructure that was abused and neglected by decades of Saddam's focus on Palaces, WMD, Military equipment - not to mention pocketing cash / bribing foreign officials and companies?

I'm sure a smart person like you knows how to look up those numbers.

Or do you think the Iraqi (and Afghani) peoples are unworthy of economic aid from the US?

To 69 and other...

Your understanding of Eschatology is brutal too say the least...I think you have been reading too many Christian bashing tomes...

First, there isn't one bloody thing we can do as Christians to hasten or delay the return of Christ. Falwell knows that and so does Robertson...to read something neferious into there support for israel is paroniod and ignorant!!

They ultimately support Isreal, like the 800 million other evangelicals around the world, because Israel is RIGHT (and I don't mean that in the political spectrum sense)...yes, both the Tanach and Greek Bible speak of the return of the Hebrews to their Homeland...that is reality...but to think that we Christians can somehow force this gameplan along is assinine and simply smacks of liberal hatred for Christians ad nauseum!!

Cato insanely suggest...
"If they thought it would speed Armageddon, the Apocalypse and the Rapture, these men would be perfectly happy to see all the Jews incinerated along with the rest of the unbelievers. After all, they're going to heaven, right? What do they care what sort of mess is left behind."

This is brutal of you Cato and speaks volumes either of your hatred of Christians or your incredible ignorance of the Greek Bible! You actually sound like a nut here...seriously dude if you believe that about Christains, then you have us mixed up with the Nazis or KKK...both of whom are decidedly anti christ as they come!

Actually I am disappointed that no one else responded to this hate filled rant of Cato's here...I hope to God not many of you are this deluded or this hateful to think so lowly of us who follow the Prince of Peace???

Again see my first point...no human on this planet can force the hand of God in His timing...and I have NEVER met NOR READ in all of my theological studies (and they are huge) any Orthodox Christian that would hold to such delusions of the like you are spouting!!

Cato...I bet you have never even opened the Greek Bible in your life??? Am I correct ole bean??? I think that is reality...for no one that has read the Greek Bible would ever come to such foolishly derived idiocy that you have...

And while your at it Cato, please provide some quotes of my Christian brother's and sisters that advocate this kind of doctrine...I am putting you on the spot to back up your idiocy...or else admit you are as wrong as any demented Islamic nut or LLL...

Cato continues his hate filled rantings with thus...
"These men and their ilk make me retch. I can understand why Israel might prefer such friends to no friends at all, but the Israelis ought to look a little closer at their real agenda. They are as intolerant as Christians ever were, but they want certain things to come about so they support Israel pro tempore. Once Jesus comes back, they believe, all the Jews will either have to convert or join the rest of the unbelievers in hell."

What is our agenda Cato...come on...I am not privy to it...oh oh...you caught us...in our Church Basements acrossthe world we are plotting too kidnap every jew and force them to convert...after all Cato, don't ya know that Jesus the Jew and Paul the Jew taught this?!!! Seriously...I am mocking your incredible ignorance or hatred...seriously Cate...read the Greek Bible before making yourself look anymore of an ass here...

One thing is easily deduced here...you havn't a bloody clue of what Christianity is...not in the least...you Cato are as full of hateful stereotypes and ignorance as any Islamist...wow...

And again, shame on you people here who didn't rise up and denounce this person's hatred...his comments are as crazy and idiotic as any Islamic facist!!

I seriously hope the majority here do not agree with such perversions as spouted by Cato here...

cont next page...

#142
Win at any cost, no?

Cato finishes with this incredible comment...
"And again, I'd have to say that if they were in power I doubt very much whether their regime would look much different from that of the Taliban. "

Yeah Cato...never mind the FACT that you have your freedoms because of us Protestants mainly who believed in the Bible literally...ie Separation of Church and State...Mayby you are not aware of the King of the Jews telling his followers that 'this world is not our kingdom' and 'render onto Ceaser what is Ceasers' etc etc...helping establish the basis of Separation of Church and State...and remember...we were at one time the majority here in North America and I seem to remember we still allowed Free Votes and all that stuff we are purported to hate...

Again your ignorance of Christianity is brutal...and I suppose that is how you want it to remain...God forbid you actually learn a thing or two...

I think more responsible Jews know better then this chap...I know the Jews that my Wife worked for certainly did...it just goes too show, that in every race, there are hate filled people...Jews are not exempt...I just assumed they were the Chomsky's, Gitlins, Stanley Cohens of this world...not the good people who post on this grand blog!!

Btw...Cato, please find me those passages referring to us hating jews and forcing them to convert...I will be waiting a long time methinks...

Devon Hill

Proud Darul Harbian

Where does the west (America in particular) get off by saing they are more liberal and equal?

Upon coming here from Europe I have noticed that the divide between men and women here is strong. Islam really has nothing to fear from grouping up with the USA. There is widespread misogony and religious repression in the driver seat here as well as in any other fundamentalist states.

#148

There is widespread misogony and religious repression in the driver seat here as well as in any other fundamentalist states.

Yea so many burka clad women walking around. Up that lithium doseage pal.

149

If there is not such a thing then on what basis do you base your censorship laws on? What about the FCC crackdown by the most religious president in modern american history?

Women in this country are not treated as equals but as sexual objects or 2nd class citizens.

I would even take a stretch to say that most of the moral standards in this country are based on religion.

Women in this country are not treated as equals but as sexual objects or 2nd class citizens.

Right, women like Hillary Clinton, Condoleeza Rice, they're really suffering in in this country.

This is probably the most important thing anyone here will read all week:

“This war ... is about — deeply about — sex,” declaims Dr. Charles Krauthammer. Militant Islam is “threatened by the West because of our twin doctrines of equality and sexual liberation.”

(substitued the more appropriate 'Dr.' for 'neocon')
Sex is tremendously important, both in how Islam became what it is, and how Islamic society could potentially be changed for the better.
You can read Dr. K. without registration at Townhall.

In reference to #148 Oi vey!:

I suggest a new LGF poll. Is this a case of:
* Trollism
* Inane & false equivalency
* Parroting of poorly-developed arguments arising from such equivalency
* Stupidity
* Decaying Europe inferiority complex
* A recent blow to the head

My favorite part:

I would even take a stretch to say that most of the moral standards in this country are based on religion.

As opposed to the moral standards elsewhere not based on religion? Umm, isn't religion historically the informer of societal-expected morals? I'm not aware of a large culture where this isn't the case.

Oi vey! #150,

Women in this country are not treated as equals but as sexual objects or 2nd class citizens.

That's why a good friend of mine, who's half-French, half-American and had been a model, when interviewing for jobs in France, was constantly asked if she would sleep with the interviewer. She hated it and ended up returning to the US, where at least she wouldn't have to sleep with a guy to get a job.

In general, I'm really not sure where you get this notion from. I've travelled extensively in Europe - I have family in France and have worked in Spain and Switzerland - and I think that women here have just as many rights as they do there, plus the ability to not sleep with a man in order to get a job. (I say this, incidentally, as a man, so I'm not perfectly sure that it's always true here either. Certainly it's true among my friends.)

I would even take a stretch to say that most of the moral standards in this country are based on religion.

You may be surprised to know that most moral standards come from religion. Think back to Kant's categorical imperative. Or look up utilitarianism, which certainly had religious roots.

twisterella,

As long as the daughter's hymen is seeing as the family symbol for honor/shame, I don't see much hope for sexual liberation from within. Queen Rania is pushing for change in Jordan, and she's facing strong opposition.

is seeing

is seen

I do know better, honestly.

#52 Mode 4

The secret's out! Gordon IS Pat Buchanan! (See Post #106.)

#141 Rod

"Pat Buchananism represents a political strain of orthodox Roman Catholic thought that has largely (and happily) passed from public life."

Unfortunately, it seems to be making a come back, in some quarters, most notably the part that clings to pre-Vatican II traditions, the Latin Mass, etc. I've nothing against Latin, but they are sounding rather grim these days, more obsessed with the miserific vision than the beatific. . .

#145 and #147 Albertanator:

Got your rants.

I have read the Bible in Greek, Latin, Luther's German, the King James version, and any number of other English translations. Never got around to learning Hebrew or Aramaic, but maybe that day will come.

I stand by my comments, which were made about a certain breed of Evangelical Christians who seem to me to have ingested the Book of Revelations as if it were, pardon the analogy, a slow-release hallucinogenic drug. I was emphatically not tarring all Christians or even all Evangelicals with that brush. But these people are out there. If you're not one of them, then you have no reason to feel upset by my comments. If I mistakenly lumped any of the "televangelists" named in my first post with this crowd, then I am willing to be taught differently. But I suspect at least some of them subscribe to at least some of the nonsense I'm talking about. And I've personally met many who believe, not, as you put it, that they can "force the hand" of the Almighty to bring about some desired end, but rather that by their reading of Scripture the end times that they yearn for can only come if certain events happen first.

We're talking wild-eyed, crazy loons here. And completely sincere ones.

I remember one gentleman wearing his Alpha-Omega baseball cap (backwards!) telling me that sometime in the year 2000 there would of a certainty be a "limited nuclear war between Israel and Syria." When asked why, he replied that "Damascus must be destroyed" before Jesus can return. I asked him whether that was "God's plan," and he enthusiastically replied in the affirmative.

To which my only response was "then he needs to get a new one."

There are of course moonbats in any religion, and the Christian ones I've met leave nothing to be desired when compared with their Islamofascist brethren.

I don't have time for (or particularly feel like) going online and hunting down some relevant spews from people of this persuasion, but believe me, they're easily found.

So again, I did not mean to impugn you, your faith, Christianity as a whole, or anything like that. But please don't pretend the types of "believers" I've described here don't exist.

They do.

So Charles only scratched the surface of the insanity? Um, this makes me a bit nervous.

If conservatives reject the “equality” preached by Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, NARAL and the National Organization for Women, why seek to impose it on the Islamic world? Why not stand beside Islam, and against Hollywood and Hillary?

In June 2002 at West Point, President Bush said, “Moral truth is the same in every culture, in every time and in every place.”

But even John Kerry does not agree with George Bush on the morality of homosexual unions and stem cell research. On such issues, conservative Americans have more in common with devout Muslims than with liberal Democrats.

The president notwithstanding, Americans no longer agree on what is moral truth. For as someone said a few years back, there is a cultural war going on in this country, a religious war. It is about who we are, what we believe and what we stand for as a people.

What some of us view as the moral descent of a great and Godly republic into imperial decadence, neocons see as their big chance to rule the world. In Georgia recently, the president declared to great applause: “I can’t tell you how proud I am of our commitment to values. ... That commitment to values is going to be an integral part of our foreign policy as we move forward. These aren’t American values, these are universal values. Values that speak universal truths.”

But what universal values is he talking about? If he intends to impose the values of MTV America on the Muslim world in the name of a “world democratic revolution,” he will provoke and incite a war of civilizations America cannot win because Americans do not want to fight it. This may be the neocons’ war. It is not our war.

Pat Buchannan's religion is to not worship MTV? That's the big finish?

Let me suggest upping the dosage of his medication and a long, long vacation.

Ariel, twisterella, lapsed leftist

You are all very good at pointing out details to support your arguement. All that it sums up to is that you help reinforce my point even more.

Where does America get the moral upper hand to preach to other countries? They have thier own human rights abuses. They have commited thier own genocides. America has waged holy war and done many things to be ashamed of.

So please inform us all as to why America gets to decide who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

As for religious double standard: I have been to Indonesia and Maylasia and find that it is no more or less unjust than America is. Indonesia is host to a female president, and even America can't make that claim.

I am not religious and choose to stay out of religious politics unlike yourselves, but it is your moral egos that brings you all to wars. Both sides Islam and Christianity/Judism are frought with atrocities and in no way is one better than the other.

And yes you are somewhat right most laws are centered around religion so why is America's any better than Islams?

How do you people sit ariound and tout that you are the good guys? I have seen some pretty atrocious behaviour here as well. And this American religious consevative attitude has bred into fanaticism in the blink of an eye.

pat buchanan is pond scum, always has been, always will be.

#158 Cato the Elder,

Gershom Gorenberg wrote an interesting book about this:

The End of Days: Fundamentalism and the Struggle for the Temple Mount

153

The difference between Europe and Amrica is that the bible thumping has pretty much stopped in Europe. Religion is honored as a tradition and history but is almost wholly unobserved in the same way is it is in the USA.

During Olympic games American's mostly thank god if they win. Who else does that?

I would hope that America stop stirring this hornets nest of religion but it won't change. Americans are a culture of fear. This same sense of fear was non existant in Europe. It even resonates down to the constant police presence I see.

I think America should look in the mirror before pointing the finger.

All of you on this post should realise that you are hated by almost every other nation in the world. How many wars can you wage to combat this?

Oi vey,
I see you don't have a problem bashing America yet you haven't told us from which country in Europe you originate.

#162 oy stupid

So please inform us all as to why America gets to decide who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

We've got a BIG club and speak softly.
per T.R. Roosevelt

Uh-oh. The Rest of the World Hates Us! What should we do?

I, for one, will do this: nothing. Like I freakin' care what Eurabia thinks about anything. 20,000 old people die because their kids won't pay for air conditioners. Yeah, there's an example to respect and follow.

If you call holding a mirror up to people 'bashing' o.k. I think you are all way to aggressive and confrontational. I am only pointing out what I consider to be the obvious.

My country of origin is irrelevent, and I have no religious affiliation so please don't sharpen your swords just yet.

I actually find aspects of American culture to be charming, but I see how this current political trend has left many Americans isolated from the rest of the world.

I think that with dialogue America can be a 'cool' country again. After all America IS the standard for pop culture and entertainment.

I am only playing devil's advocate to inform you of another opinion. These attacks show the hyperventilating nature to which American's are touted to respond to anything contraversial.

I could point out for days hipocrasies, however that is not the arguement at hand.

What is the arguement is when did America give itself the right to preach to others?

Oy idiot

The difference between Europe and Amrica is that the bible thumping has pretty much stopped in Europe.

They're humpin' the "holy" koran in Europe.

167

That would be the typical macho posturing response that is expected from an American.

Do you wish to feed into that or would you care to understand another view point instead of pointing a gun at it?

#169 oy stupid

What is the arguement is when did America give itself the right to preach to others?

When did Muslim gain the right to rule the world?

#169 Oi Vey!:

What is the arguement is when did America give itself the right to preach to others?

Freedom. Rule of Law. Equality for all enshrined in the Constitution.

So then you are somewhat acknowledging that both America and other countries are dealing with some form of fanaticism?

#171

Do you wish to feed into that or would you care to understand another view point instead of pointing a gun at it?

F@@k your death wish!

147 Albertanator: I'm not religious but for the record, I agree with you and not with Cato. I have corresponded with some Christian Zionists I met at a pro-Israel rally and found them to be be passionate supporters of Israel. Every one of them had visited Israel at least once, often going there and doing volunteer work for the IDF. Never once did they say anything about the Jews having to convert to be saved or the End Times. The common thread was that all of them believed Christianity was their path to becoming one with the Chosen People, deeply admired the Jewish faith, and particularly felt a kinship with observant Jewish Zionists. Nor did they try to push their religion on me, although you would think a lapsed Catholic would make an inviting target for someone eager to do missionary work!

I can understand why many Jews are still wary of Christianity: the daughter religion turned on its' mother many times during the last 2000 years. But I've come to realize that the American evangelical tradition is different from the old (and now dead) European Christian one. The emphasis on personal salvation and the value we place on separation of church and state makes Christian Right-Taliban comparisons extremely foolish and inaccurate.

Just as the Europeans and many of the LLL's do not distinguish between old European nationalism (which led to a tremendous amount of bloodshed over the centuries, culminating in WWII) and American patriotism, so they can not see the differences between state-supported religion (which led to religious wars and pograms) and the individualistic American variety.

I might not agree with their religious views, but I'm not happy seeing Christian Zionists being painted with a broad brush and portrayed as ignorant rednecks with ulterior motives.

"But even John Kerry does not agree with George Bush on the morality of homosexual unions and stem cell research. On such issues, conservative Americans have more in common with devout Muslims than with liberal Democrats."

Buchanan has a point here, though my views are the exact opposite of his. As I've said before, this is why a Christian fundamentalist like Bush is ill-equipped to wage an ideological war against fundamentalist Islam. Unfortunately, our only other option is the culturally relativistic left.

Cox & Forkum put it well here.

[Link: www.coxandforkum.com...]

So then you are somewhat acknowledging that both America and other countries are dealing with some form of fanaticism?

Lose the arguement change subject.

173

That certianly is an arrogant view point. What if other cultures are not suited for American style democrasy?

Who says America is free? Aren't there taboo topics in this country as well? In the 1950's who could even mutter the word communism in AMerica, just as now who could even mutter anything anti US policy?

My country of origin is irrelevent

I think you are all way to aggressive and confrontational.

Aww, you poor little un-named European "devil's advocate"... Do you need a hug?

I want to GAZE, but these are reasonable questions, though asked constantly on LGF. Quick per-paragraph reply, starting with "Where does America..."

Informed realpolitik. Of late, minor abuses and generally swiftly punished. Not since the 1790s, I believe. No holy wars, for that implies the destruction of another religion/religious believers for the sake of religion; America has, but so has everyone else -- the difference is we learn from our mistakes and tend not to repeat them.

Because someone has to. Who decides that someone is a bully and someone is a victim? The person willing to put himself or herself at risk to aid another.

We'll see what happens in those countries when the RoP extremists take control; not sure under what basis and by what criteria the relative justice claim is made; the only significant female US (vice-)presidential candidate was on the worst ticket since Kerry/whoever; is Indonesia a representative or parliamentary democracy?; the nature of a representative democracy makes winning impossible for a candidate who cannot get under any circumstances a certain percentage of votes (20%, let's say) even when running against a cabbage.

Most Americans do not engage in "religious politics", at least since Kennedy got elected President and broke the religious barrier (though that may be a cause for Lieberman's poor showing); if fighting against totalitarianism and for freedom is 'moral ego' then so be it; I dare you to look at religious-based killings worldwide for the last 50 years and declare with a straight face that Islam in its current state as generally practiced and accepted in Asia, Europe and Africa has not led to genocide on an astonishing scale that hasn't been seen since well, you know, you're from Europe; please name the last time Jews chased down Christians and slaughtered them with machetes; name the last time Christians killed other Christians because they practiced different sect.

The claim was not that laws were centered around religion but rather than societal morals were initially derived from religion; different religions inform secular law and behavior in different fashions; because there is only one religion out of the three you mentioned that explicitly declares (and as is generally practiced) that it is the believer's duty to impose (through subjugation or the blade) that very religion over all others -- more correctly, that other religions are to be exterminated; because laws that maximize freedom and minimize enforced inequality (within the boundaries of a negative rights principle -- one has the right not to be harmed or interfered with in personal matters rather than one has the entitlement to something) are better for everyone, unless one believes that humans are automatons or undeserving of free will, life, liberty, etc.

We're the good guys because we put ourselves in harm's way to aid others; we're the good guys because we acknowledge when we've done wrong; we're the good guys because we don't fly 7X7-shaped bombs into civilian skyscrapers; we're the good guys because we don't strap rat-poison-laced nails and Semtex to vests and blow up school buses.

Atrocious behavior is in the nature of humanity, but how a society prevents it and punishes it is a mark of freedom. Have you seen anything as atrocious in the US as the sawing decapitation, the Saddam-order amputations, the Superman flight, the industrial shredder, the clitoridectomy? If so, have you seen that be (a) punished or (b) praised and expected? It is an American lack of fanaticism (not at all religious-based) against those who would kill us for breathing that scares me. Other countries live under fanatical religious fundamentalism; America does not.

There, done. Bring a real argument back or stay home.

We find these truths to be self evident that all men (women, other races) are created equal and are endowed by their creator with certain inalienable rights, yadda, yadda.

Universal Declarations, treaties, cease fire agreements, genocide conventions, thousands of years struggling for gender equality.

Hey, if the ladies want to take a powder on the most important struggle in thousands of years... I'll take the harem deluxe thanks! That's a sick joke. Get used to it.

#179

Who says America is free? Aren't there taboo topics in this country as well? In the 1950's who could even mutter the word communism in AMerica, just as now who could even mutter anything anti US policy?

Last stupidity first:ask Al"hear me roar"Gore. General rebuttal: Get your head out of your a@@hole.

#179 Oi vey!:

That certianly is an arrogant view point. What if other cultures are not suited for American style democrasy?

Bingo! There's the money shot! Your statement is a perfect example of how racism has gone from a mostly right wing notion (oh, say, in the 50's of which you speak) to an idea owned by the left nowadays. Effectively you are saying "Oh, those poor wog (insert culture here). Why, they can't be expected to be bright enough to handle democracy and freedom! Why, I'll wager they're happier in their crushing regimes! Gosh, how dare you suggest they can embrace freedom!"

We, on the other hand, believe that everyone has the ability and the right to be free from tyranny and repression.

My, what a friend the downtrodden have in you.

#164 Zorkmidden:

Thanks for the reference. Looks very interesting indeed.

A point I've been making for decades is that in their desire to see what they consider to be essential "end-times" prophecies fulfilled, human beings may very well bring about the end of time (or at least "the end of the world as we know it") themselves, whether or not that has anything to do with God's will. Gorenberg seems to be saying something similar.

Personally I don't believe that God has everything planned down to the last little act in the last big battle. Seems to me that leaves no room for free will, and that in turn would kind of make the whole thing pointless, wouldn't it?

I mean, why create a universe at all if you know exactly how everything is going to turn out? (This, by the way, is one of the reasons I dislike Islamic teaching: it's the most deterministic religion I've ever encountered.)

No, I've always taken more to the notion of a hands-off, watchmaker kind of God, who set the whole thing in motion and now watches to see what we're going to make of it.

I suspect that if we ever do succeed in Armageddonizing ourselves, God will greet us at the gates of heaven and say something like: "But children, children, that wasn't what I had in mind at all. Not at all."

178

No I think it helps reinforce the fact that America hypes up things it chooses unacceptable all the while never thinking to clean up its own back yard.

I don't think the Abu Ghirab prison scandal is any worse than what goes on in many penitentiaries in in the USA. As for cultural oppression I would be interested to see the view of American black africans attitudes about thier 'equality.'

It all boils down to this: America is no moral giant, and even if the way muslims conduct themselves is deplorable, the west cannot point the finger and claim superiority.

I think that with dialogue America can be a 'cool' country again

Like I give a good g-ddamn if anybody thinks we're "cool," especially someone as brain-dead as this "oi vey" creature is. Yeah, that's the ticket. Foreign policy as popularity contest.

"Oi Vey" must be around 14 years old. So soaked in PC cliches and moral equivalence his/her brain has turned to mush.

Debate him/her if you like. I'm not wasting any more keystrokes on this dipshit (well, maybe I'll make fun of him if he comes out with anything else that strikes me as spectacularly stupid, instead of just run-of-the-mill ignorant.)

Oi Vey, indeed.

#162 & #169 oi vey

What a complete load of multiculturalistic crap.

And full of typical zeropean socialistic aping of Chomsky's worse theories.

It's clear that you have no real understanding of America - other than those taught in socialism 101 and anti-Americanism 102.

I actually find aspects of American culture to be charming, but I see how this current political trend has left many Americans isolated from the rest of the world.

I think that with dialogue America can be a 'cool' country again. After all America IS the standard for pop culture and entertainment.

Typical zeropean whinging about conservatism in America. Bring back Clinton - he was good for America and good for the World - but of course, no one can say what specific "good" was done.

So please inform us all as to why America gets to decide who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

Pick your reason - Strength? The fact that on numerous occasions America sacrificed its own to free others from oppression? Wealth? The fact that America is based on simple aspects - Freedom, Democracy, and Capitalism? Perhaps its because of the longevity of the American government? or the vast numbers of people who desire to emigrate to the US?

Or because, simply, no one else will take steps or make sacrifices to protect and defend others.

Why don't you worry about your own morality, your own nation's history, your own nation's accountability - and focus your attentions there since you understand the US so little.

It's not a tough concept to learn and understand - but it seems like you would bash America than really learn anything.

Oops, post #177 was from me, Bob. Was writing an e-mail to someone in another window and my mind slipped.

#185 Cato the Elder:

a hands-off, watchmaker kind of God,

I believe that is called Deism, and was the belief system of many of the founding fathers.

Y'mean, we're about to put Michael Moore in prison or something? Is that what the Eurabian is alluding to? I know how hard it is to speak your mind in America, what with John Ashkkkroft's TOTAL FINAL ELF control of the Internet, TV, magazines, and movies.

Whew! I'm so glad that there's a few tiny voices out there that can anonymously speak their minds.

Thanks, Eurabian!

Oi vey #162,

Where does America get the moral upper hand to preach to other countries?

Where does France for that matter? We've certainly seen that Europe feels quite free to preach to Israel w/r/t the "palestinians" or the US w/r/t Iraq.

They have thier own human rights abuses. They have commited thier own genocides.

Without going back into the depths of history, one would have to say that Americans have tended to investigate their human rights abusers, find them wanting, and punish them for their failings. That isn't really true in the Netherlands, for example, where a grudging investigation found that the Dutch peacekeepers had had a glass of wine with the Serb commander as his troops slaughtered Bosnians. No matter - no one was punished.

America has waged holy war and done many things to be ashamed of.

Please do inform me when America "waged holy war".

So please inform us all as to why America gets to decide who is the bad guy and who is the good guy?

I suppose that there's no reason why America could be the one country that gets to decide. Nevertheless, we might want to think about this logically. America's enemies:

* slaughter gay people for being gay
* suppress women
* have "honor" killings
* choose the sword first and diplomacy only as a feint to provide time to recover
* enslave black people
* call for the deaths of others based on their religion
...etc.

If that isn't evil, I don't know what is. And perhaps that's your point - that there is no such thing as evil, that everything is relative. If that is your point - you subscribe to the failed ideology known as moral relativism - please understand that moral relativism is relatively easily refuted:

1) From a case perspective: Two countries are exactly equal except has one has slavery. Are the two countries morally equivalent?
2) From a philosophy perspective: If morals are relative to the culture (as proponents of moral relativism hold), where do we draw the boundaries for the culture? There may be differences at the cultural, country, city, or even individual level - so moral relativism ineluctably means that each person has their own sense of right and wrong. This defines that right and wrong are definitionless; therefore, a moral relativist should have no moral problem with shooting random people.

As for religious double standard: I have been to Indonesia and Maylasia and find that it is no more or less unjust than America is. Indonesia is host to a female president, and even America can't make that claim.

I suppose if you're not Jewish and in Malaysia, it's just fine. Doesn't that right away suggest something wrong? What Mahathir has said? And how it was applauded?

I wonder how the East Timorese felt about Indonesia's "moderation" toward Christians. Or how about the Balinese, after the attack there? In any case, Indonesian Islam, historically, has been more moderate than most of the rest of Islam - though that may be changing.

cam

You are still dodging my question. Where did America earn the right to "dictate" to others about democrasy?

I don't personally care about the downtrodden, but still I ask where do you earn the right to preach to them?

I am glad we in America don't have any right to claim moral superiority, what with saving the bacon of the Western Europeans twice in 30 years. Quite a few American lie at rest in European cemetaries. Good to know they have no moral superiority or anything.

America is no moral giant, and even if the way muslims conduct themselves is deplorable, the west cannot point the finger and claim superiority.

Why not? America is a superior country.

#185 Cato the Elder

No, I've always taken more to the notion of a hands-off, watchmaker kind of God, who set the whole thing in motion and now watches to see what we're going to make of it.

That's my idea of God, as well, and I believe we each carry God in our conscience. What you said earlier, about supporting Israel because it's the right thing to do, strikes a chord with me; it has to do with morality, not religion.

Wa'sallam

Mr Buchanan understands the humiliation of the Arab world. He also understands the proper role of women in society. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has mentioned that women have less intelligence than men. This is recorded in Bukhari Shareef.

As Islam has made it obligatory upon a women to answer the call of the husband to bed, so too are men advised to engage in foreplay before the actual act of intercourse takes place. The question of equality cannot be based on the act of intercourse or be viewed as the west will view equality ie. a woman must be able to do what a man can do.

Your values and principles lie in the kuffaar way of life, hence your apologetic attitude regarding many of the teachings of Islam. We are all in need of shedding some pride, which is the cornerstone of western ideology.

One of the principles that you have inherited from the kuffaar is the equating of inferiority with derogation.

To accept that Allah Ta'ala has created somebody or something inferior to another, in no way implies that the inferior person or thing is belittled.

There are various examples of where Allah Ta'ala, in accordance to His wisdom, has created certain people superior than others. This is the right of Allah Ta'ala and no one may question His Wisdom. His Knowledge is absolute and we, as His creation, cannot fathom His Wisdom.

Consider that Allah Ta'ala has created:

(a) Our Nabi (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) as the most superior of all the ambiyaa (prophets).

(b) Hazrat Jibra-eel (alayhis salaam) as the most superior angel.

(c) Hazrat Abu Bakr (Radiyallahu anhu) as the most superior companion of our Nabi (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam)

(d) Makkah as the most superior city.

(e) The Quráan the most superior of the Divine Books

These are merely few cases mentioned by way of illustration.

In all these cases, since a superior exists, the converse must necessarily follow to be the inferior.

Can one claim that by referring to them as inferior, we wish to belittle or deride them? Do we imply that they are debase and disgraceful? Does it imply that they are ignominious?

If this was the case it would imply that since Allah Ta'ala has created our Nabi (Sallallahu Alayhi Wasallam) as the most superior Nabi, Allah forbid,
all the other Ambiyaa (alayhis salaam) have no value? Does it mean that since the Quráan is most superior, all other Divine scriptures are merit less? The same question can be posed regarding the other examples given.

On the one hand, inferiority is no shame, and on the other hand, it is the prerogative of Allah Ta'ala to grant intellect to whom so ever He wishes to. If in His Wisdom He granted men more intelligence than women, it is His
Right. No one can question Him, nor can we, with our feeble intelligence claim, Allah forbid, that it is illogical for Allah Ta'ala to have done so. It is neither implied that Allah Ta'ala has degraded women, nor made them
valueless.

Allah Ta'ala has created man and woman for separate roles. He also granted each one of the two qualities which are more befitting for their respective
roles, e.g. women are generally more emotional than men in keeping with their role of motherhood. In the same light he has granted men more intelligence than women, in accordance of their role of guardians and
overseers over women.

Almost the entire universe is made of inferior beings. We are all in one way or the other inferior. We do not have to hang our heads in shame for being inferior. It is the Divine system that He has created us inferior in some respect or the other. There is therefore no need for women to feel ashamed of the fact that they have been granted less of one quality than men.

It is like the rules of hijaab; separate but equal.

Didn't take long to find something spectacularly stupid:

just as now who could even mutter anything anti US policy?

Well, for starters, Michael Moore, the editoral pages of the NY Times, the Dixie Chicks, Al Franken, Ted Kennedy, Al Gore, Bill Clinton, John Kerry, Tim Robbins,.., I could go on and on.

And these people aren't muttering, they're screaming at the top of their lungs. Have John Ashcroft's secret police hauled them off to the gulag yet?

Compare that with Saddam's Iraq, where people got tossed into plastic shredders live.

("But you're no better," whimpers little Oi Vey.)

Oi vey #162 (continued),

I am not religious and choose to stay out of religious politics unlike yourselves, but it is your moral egos that brings you all to wars. Both sides Islam and Christianity/Judism are frought with atrocities and in no way is one better than the other.

"Moral egos" bring people to wars? There are many reasons for war, but morality is generally not one of them. Otherwise, the "moral" countries would have gone to war long ago with Zimbabwe, China, or Iran.

Wars are fought due to rational self-interest.

And yes you are somewhat right most laws are centered around religion so why is America's any better than Islams?

America's law:

1) can be changed
2) doesn't mandate different treatment for Muslims vs. Christians
3) might be based in religion but certainly has shown flexibility

#193 oi vey:

BTW, Cam is a proper name, and is thus capitalized.

M'kay. America does not have the "right" to dictate to others. She has an obligation. All free countries owe, to some degree or another, outside parties for their assistance in throwing off the shackles of tyranny. F'rinstance, France assisted the nascent USA in freeing itself from British tyranny. Years on , countries like the US, Canada & Great Britain liberated France, the Netherlands, etc, from Nazi repression and occupation. Those of us that benefit from freedom must do what they can to ensure that freedom is available to others. I believe it is a crime to allow people to live in abject fear and harm, and we must thus do what we can to assist others. Thus it is not a "right", it is a "responsibilty". I would indeed be quite interested to know from whence you are posting so that we could examine who historically shouldered the "right" to free you to post any thought that crosses your mind. We know where you're not from, because if you were in a regime that didn't allow the free exchange of opinion, you wouldn't be here.

I hope that isn't "dodging" your question.

BTW, I am Canadian.

Oh good grief, look who's back: Aisha.

How's it going, girl? Still peddling the same old wine, I see. And not even in new bottles.

Oops, I forgot: Allah Ta'ala won't let us drink wine, old or new.

Reason enough to ignore him, if you ask me...

Oi vey #165,

All of you on this post should realise that you are hated by almost every other nation in the world. How many wars can you wage to combat this?

By and large, America has become the world's Jew. You, being European, should understand what this means. You see, the Jew works hards and strives to better his situation. And many times in Europe, the Jew managed to better his situation. The ruling classes found that incitement to hatred of the Jews could distract their people from hating the ruling classes for not bettering their lot.

And that's the situation that America is in right now, in the world. Your European elites have chosen to demonize the US (and Israel) as the world's Jew. Every action that the US (and Israel) undertake is given infinite scrutiny; meanwhile, mass murderers (like Mugabe) are feted in gay Paris.

Doesn't that tell you something about the relative moral rectitude of the situation?

All you will ever need to know about oi vey is:

I don't personally care about the downtrodden...

Yeh, F*ck 'em. FOAD oi vey.

Accept it or not some of us do care. Oh, and thats why we:

earn the right to preach to them...

#202 Cato the Elder::

"Aisha" is a froll. The schtick is getting rather old.

Cam:

Just got home, is this tonight's official hockey thread?

#208 Iron Fist

Yes Sir!

Jack Daniels at the ready...well, now ready for a refill.

Oi vey! #169,

I actually find aspects of American culture to be charming, but I see how this current political trend has left many Americans isolated from the rest of the world.

Oh look, he finds aspects of our culture charming! Ah, comme ils sont charmants, ces barbares. Very cute.

I know this comes as a shock, but Europe's colonies have been lost. The time for calling other cultures charming as a way to denigrate them is also passed.

I think that with dialogue America can be a 'cool' country again. After all America IS the standard for pop culture and entertainment.

You mean America is somehow both 'cool' and the home of religious fundamentalists? How is that possible? Could it be that despite the religious fundamentalists, America has managed to preserve individual liberties? And that this makes America different from the Islamic fundamentalists.

What is the arguement is when did America give itself the right to preach to others?

How about when did Europe?

America has become the world's Jew.

Both anti-Americanism and Jew-hating are, at bottom, hatred of the successful. A sour, bitter, soul-destroying envy.

#208 Iron Fist:

Iron Fist, my southern friend, you must expand your learning of your northern neighbours.

To sum:

In Canada

Drinking = Hockey

;-)

#208 Iron Fist

Well that too, of course. But tonight is the 2nd game of the finals and a Canadian team is involved and Cam is Canadian and so am I (sort of).

Cheers!

#205 Cam:

I was wondering about that, actually. Seemed a little to perfectly provocative. But "she" does have her Islamo-patter down, doesn't "she"?

What does "froll" stand for, by the way?

#214 Cato the Elder:

Froll = "faux troll"

I believe his name is David.

I don't lke Buchanan too, and he is an anti-Semite. But he does have a point. What is so great about our culture now? We are eating the seed corn of what was good and replacing it with sleaze on all levels, not just tawdry sexuality. Ok, we are still better than the Arabs, but for how long?

At the beginning of Istinja, it is preferable to use toilet paper 3 times. If Istinjaa is being done on a hot day, then the person should start from the front to the back and then from the back to the front and the third time from the front to the back. If Istinjaa is being done on a cold day, then he should begin from the back to the front.

After wiping, he should wash his hand first and then he should cleanse himself with 2 fingers and 3 fingers if necessary together with ‘pouring’ water. When using the 2 fingers, one should keep the middle finger in front and the ring and index finger behind it. After beginning with the fingers in this position, he should bring the ring finger forward and rub with the middle finger and ring finger. Thereafter, he will wipe with the index finger, if necessary.

He should continue until all the impurity and smell is removed. The left over water after Istinjaa is paak only if there is no impurity in it.

One of our missile subs -- just one -- can launch enough nuclear warheads to obliterate your pathetic, immoral, terrorist-loving, America-hating, Jewkilling continent.

Oh bigel! I love it when you talk dirty to me!

Iron Fist,

I hear and obey, sir!

Aisha, sit down girlfriend, have a smoke, take a sip, ok?

One of our missile subs -- just one -- can launch enough nuclear warheads to obliterate your pathetic, immoral, terrorist-loving, America-hating, Jewkilling continent.

Oh bigel! I love it when you talk dirty to me!

BWAhahahaha! Best. Response to Bigel. Ever.

Pat Buchanan, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, and all the rest of these finger-wagging, holier-than-thou thugs would be quite at home under Shari'ah law.

I lived in the Belt Buckle of the Bible Belt (SE Alabama) where what these right wingers said was akin to gospel - while not everyone was not a Jew hater, it sure seemed like there weren't too many people that enjoyed having Jews around and they didn't make my stay in that area of the country pleasant.

@ 181 Lapsed leftist -

name the last time Christians killed other Christians because they practiced different sect.

I agree with most of your comments but unfortunately there still is sectarian violence in N. Ireland - Christians killing Christians

@ 184 Cam

a perfect example of how racism has gone from a mostly right wing notion (oh, say, in the 50's of which you speak) to an idea owned by the left nowadays

This thread is about a racist RIGHT winger in 2004 - as others have noted, racists come from both sides and all of them are a$$holes.

#222 Grail:

I realize what I posted wsn't exactly apropos to the thread but I was trying to poke Oy Vey in the eye widda stick. I notice he/she hasn't respoded since.

Me now shut up.

;-)

Wow, what unbelievable heat. Paul in Romans 9:3-5 says: "For I could wish that I myself were accursed and cut off from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen by the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is
Christ, who is over all things, God blessed for ever. Amen.

Elsewhere Paul implies that the Jews rejection of Jesus was in part necessary to enable salvation, the Messianic action, to come to my people the gentiles: "So I ask, have they stumbled so as to fall? By no means! But through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel Jealous. Now if their trespass means riches for the world, and if their failure means riches for the Gentiles, how much more will their full inclusion mean!...For if they (gentiles) have been cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these natural branches (the Jews) be grafted back into their own olive tree.

As a conservative Roman Catholic I have profound respect and gratitude to the Jews who brought awareness of One God Almighty into the world, and gave my people the unspeakable blessing of the One who shows me and in fact carries me on the path to the Father of All That Is. I am assured by the ancient teachings of my faith that before the Messiah comes again in glory and power and justice He will be recognized by many many of the 'natural branches'- and in fact they will have a huge role in the parousia that is sure to come tonight or in 100 million years give or take a few million yrs. Don't ever doubt that devout lovers of Christ are also lovers of the Jewish people and the Paschal mystery that they present and represent to the world. God Bless Abraham and all of his people.

CAM

Aren't you talking to me anymore?

Fay:

LOL. BTW, the Lightning are up 1 - zip. I am kinda worried, although LeCavalier has one point for me so far...

;-)

Buchanan, when younger, never went thru a phase where he wore panties on his head, and he's obviously the poorer for it.

Sorry Fay:

Lightning are up 1 - zip. LaCavalier got a point for me though...

You'all ...First time I was aware of the antisememtic use of the term"NeoCon" ..was when it started to come out of Pat Buchannons mouth...when Regan was in Office and right after Regans term was over.

To Pat ..Regan was almost the 2nd Coming. Almost the only thing important in life for Pat at that time was to serve with and just plain serve Ronald Regan. It was that "devotion" weve seen before on the other side with FDR. THAT LEVEL of devotion.

The ONLY problem here for Pat was: Ronald Regan spent most of his life around Jews..knew them..worked WITH them and for them..Jews were NOT some kind of Museum Piece for RR. Jews were not some kind of "oddity" for RR. Regan knew Jews on an everyday basis..which means..some good, some not so good, some in the middle and some bastards..just like EVERYONE ELSE in the World. One more little wrinkle..RR felt pretty comphy around Jews and spent time with some JEWS as his FRIENDS (of a sort). This FRIEKED OUT Pat Buchannon. He could almost not stand it. It about killed him. AND if he could he was gonna DO something about it.

Next Pat was a life long Republican..and as things were proceeding right along, he saw some Jews becoming more Conservative and seeking to MAYBE? change parties.. to become..(ohmagawd--Republicans) YOU can just IMAGINE FOR YOURSELF. I dont even have to write down what Pat thought.and sooo the use of the term NEOCON and the demonization of the belief systems and the people that held it ...came out of Pats racist bigoted mouth. He was GOING to STOP those Jooos from getting into the Party..and he was GOING TO STOP the Party from accepting those "phony Repubs" Jews or possibly "spies"... He was GOING TO DRIVE A WEDGE thru the regular Repubs..and the NEOCONS. He was going to make sure Jews were barely welcome in the GOP and would have NO POWER (Power is the word here) in the GOP. This NEOCON demonization by marking it phony Republicanism for Jews..was developed (anyway) by PAT BUCHANNON..and his little "friends".

Thats a little background of what I remember.

I CAN tell you all how it was growing up in DC ...WITH Pat Buchannon around. (He lived about 6 blocks? down Conn. Ave. after you go around Chevy Chase Circle and cross into the Md Line) Suffice it to say..That boy, that antisememtic PIG, ..hasnt changed ONE single BIT.

Whoops - didn't think the first one went through

Viewing American foreign policy through a prism of perceived Israeli interests, Buchanan reflexively opposes every U.S. action that might benefit Israel, even if the action benefits the U.S. more than it does Israel.

Aisha

You are in fine form tonight sweety. Keep ‘em coming, I’ll make sure to put my Bushmills down before I read your posts (I don’t like to spray good whiskey on my monitor).

I have an idea for you. Since Allah Creator of Worlds has apparently taken a powder, you should take over his blog. I think you’d do well. (Better brush up on your Photoshop skills, though.)

Give it a whirl, girl.

Test

Cam:

Don't worry, Flames in 7. Now, off to enjoy a delicious glass (or three) of Australian Shiraz after which I'll try my best to remember the Iron Fist rule:

Q. What’s the Iron Fist Rule?

A. “If you think you are too drunk to post, you are too drunk too post.” First used on LGF by… er… well, you can probably figure that one out for yourself.

When Buchannon was running for Pres..or thinkin about it..all three News Magazines did a piece on him. Maybe it was USNews and World Report that did the most extensive "report" on Pat and his early years in DC. (I think? that was the most detailed of the reports) Pat laughs his head off about being arrested for..or almost arrested for several incidents in his "youth"...They DO go into how his family and the Church in DC were extremely friendly, and how many times that friendship was- "handy"...Pats behavior went unpunished..unnoticed...nothin much really...blah blah blah. No wonder he laughs..anyone ELSE would have been arrested and have had his life MARKED by similar behavior.

I CAN say more..I grew up with Pat..living about 12 minutes away by bus..the L2 or the L4..Up Conn Ave..past the Avalon...past CC Circle..and just past Chevy Chase Country Club.

#234 Fay:

Worry not my friend. I am already on beer #4 and contemplating #5. So I will undoubtably be invoking the Iron Fist rule first.

Firshht...

BTW, in order to get to the money in my pool, I need the series to go to 9 games. I am currently lobbying Betman for a last minute rule change.

;-)

Wow, am I late to this thread!

Oy vei: This how a lot of us XX beings here feel about ourselves-> LGF Womyns' Anthem-- I don't think we're too oppressed! :)

Aisha: Grrrlfriend! Hell Yeah!

Zorkmidden: I'm talking about the genesis of the Qur'an, and how somehow wine, women and song disappeared from Islamic culture, and what we could maybe do to put them back!

#237 twisterella:

Since Jheka started is blog, "Wine, women and song" is now officially owned by him. I expect you'll be hearing from his attorney any day soon...

;-)

#150 Oi vey,

I would even take a stretch to say that most of the moral standards in this country are based on religion.

That's rather logical and universally true. Religions have the "purpose" of preserving the species by, among other things, imparting an absolute sanction on those rules of life that enhance group survival. A large part of morality institutionalizes ways of group behavior that advantage the species: breeding, sanitation, rules of justice, etc. Religion is the semantic expression of the species' instincts for self preservation and the uncontestable sanction for obedience.

I'm an atheist and I am not overly worried if Christian fundamentalists have moral fits. If they are American Christians they usually adhere to the concept of the separation of church and state. Just be thankful our fundamentalists are not Muslims who are infinitely more censorious and viscious.

222 Grail:

name the last time Christians killed other Christians because they practiced different sect.
I agree with most of your comments but unfortunately there still is sectarian violence in N. Ireland - Christians killing Christians

(Rushing to catch train home from work = shoddy proofreading on #181. Crap.) Not an expert on this topic, but isn't this mostly a question of occupation/land rights as opposed to religion? I realize that the lines are pretty much drawn along the Catholic/Protestant division, but isn't it much more a question of nationalism/sovereignty?

223

No, sorry Cam i AM here, and grial has saved me a few moments typing.

I have proved my point also, so I do feel somewhat satiated.

As for the other comments, I don't see how you feel that you are the superior country. I would ask the poor or lower middle class in this country how well they think the system works for them.

#241 oi vey:

As for the other comments, I don't see how you feel that you are the superior country. I would ask the poor or lower middle class in this country how well they think the system works for them.

I would suspect a damned sight better than those of damn near every other country. People are not exactly busting down the doors to get into Estonia or Bangladesh.

237 twisterella

From the jist of your post I take you are a woman. Can you say that NEVER in your life have you been subject to discrimination or unequal treatment based on your gender?

Would you go so far to say that America is "THE BEST" country in the world when it comes to equality between a male and a female? Is America the model for other countries to live by?

It is typical of many people to use this treatment of women as fuel to thier fire, however, I wonder about the way American behaviour is percieved as well.

I am interested to hear your thoughts on the questions I asked. Your inout is appreciated.

oi vey #241,

I would ask the poor or lower middle class in this country how well they think the system works for them.

Perhaps better than the poor or lower middle class in the Saudi entity? Or, given that the median GDP/capita in the poorest state of the Union (Mississippi) is higher than that of the socialist paradise of Sweden, it might even compare favorably to Sweden.

Your inout is appreciated.

I bet! Go twisterella.

#243 oi vey :

Satiated though you may be, I feel that since I responded to your post, you should respond to mine - vis a vis the notion that free nations have an obligation to return the favour.

Just curious.

244 Ariel

I would like to see the economics of your statement, but I will take it at face value right now.

I would wonder how many in those poor areas of Mississippi get the same kind of medical treatment achieved in Sweden? Dental? Housing?

I have been to both Sweden and Mississippi and will say that I would rather be poor in Sweden.

I am pretty sure we don't have the racial background to add into this equation either. This country does a surprisingly poor job at overcoming racial barriers. You probably can't see it from your perspective, but I do.

#236 Cam

BTW, in order to get to the money in my pool, I need the series to go to 9 games. I am currently lobbying Betman for a last minute rule change.

Ha! Any excuse not to pick up the tab.

And, if you think an infidel like you has any sway with the NHL's only Jew, forgetaboutit. You need to bribe one of your Jewish friends for that my friend.

#248 Fay:

LOL! Maybe NY Nana will go to bat for me...

;-)

246 Cam

No they do not have the right. A nation has the right to do commerce with a nation and not criticise the actions of others.

America has done a wonderful job at criticising in order to seek out its agenda. This post is a perfect example of what happens when you criticise america's actions.

Put yourself in others shoes. How would (did) you accept criticsm? You fought back.

The world has grown tired of Americas criticism. Maybe America is right? Maybe they are doing whats best. I don't know, but it is precisly my point that never in one instance should Americans assume the right to point the finger at the world, as the world is now for the first time in history pointing it back.

This new bully mentality of politics here has not gotten America very far in the world and will only cause more violence.

#198 Aisha
You wrote
"Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Alayhi Wasallam) has mentioned that women have less intelligence than men. This is recorded in Bukhari Shareef."

Is it your belief that the most intelligent woman in the world is less intelligent than the most stupid man?

Surely you have met some intelligent women. And surely you have met some stupid men. Do the facts jibe with the theory that women have less intelligence than men?

#248 Fay:

Wait a sec -are you one of the chosen ones. 'Cause in that case, I've always admired the intelligence and insights of your posts, as well as your witty repartee... you get Betman on the line yet?

;-)

Fay, Cam... I'm nearly finished my first beer, and definitely need to invoke the rule.

I hate having a low tolerance.

Except that it means no hangover in the morning.

P.S. Fay--thank you so much for quoting from the FAQ page, it made my day ;-)

#250 oi vey:

Reread please, dearheart. I said the obligation.

Respond please.

Fay:

Wow. Are you watching the game? I made a light-hearted half-sack bet that TB would shut out Calgary tonight - but holy monkey, what a shitkicking!

The world has grown tired of American criticism?

Too bad. Get used to it. We're not shutting up.

It's really fun to point out to the Eurabians how decadent they've become. From the heroic output of the Renaissance, the Reformation, and the Age of Reason to a time when they spit in the face of their two-time liberators and kick the Jews because they feel bad.

Remember the Great War? Who saved Europe's bacon?

Remember the next Great War? Who saved Europe's bacon?

Remember the Great War of Islamization? Who cares to save Europe's bacon now?

We will gladly stop criticizing you as soon as you return our fallen dead in all your cemetaries.

#243 oi vey: Yep, I can say with absolute conviction that I have never been discriminated against on the basis of my sex in this country. Actually, I've been discriminated for! In graduate school and the job market, grrrl mathematicians are highly prized, and much recruited!
If I am discriminated against, it is biology that's the culprit! Like we discussed on the Kasparov thread, I am less likely to become a chess grandmaster because of my inferior spatial reasoning powers (although I am *happy* that I am also less likely to become a schizophrenic). What is your gender, if I may ask?

Cam, Jheka wuvs me, I'm sure he'll never grudge the use! :)

No you do not have the obligation or the right to act on your own behalf without repricusion.

You have absolutely no right to decide for yourself who you "obligate" for freedom and who gets a pass.

You have failed three times at invading a nation and rebuilding it in your liking. The message should be clear by ow.

#257 twisterella:

Cam, Jheka wuvs me, I'm sure he'll never grudge the use! :)

Sure, but I hear Rummy and Bogie are pretty frickin' terratorial.

oi vey:

You still have yet to respond to me.

#258 oi vey:

Which three times were those?

#252 Cam

Wait a sec -are you one of the chosen ones

Affirmative.

And he's on the line waiting for me :-O

Oi Vey (who Gender Genie says is a female)

In order to understand America, one needs a little grounding in the history of America’s educational system.

Let me paraphrase Paul Johnson.

In 1749 Ben Franklin, in his Proposal Relating to the Education of Youth in Pennsylvania, put forward a scheme to treat religion as one subject in the curriculum and relate it to character training. This was the solution adopted when the modern American public school movement, directed by Horace Mann came into existence in the nineteenth century. American public schools were non-sectarian but they were not non-religious. Mann thought religious instructions should be taken “to the extremest verge to which it can be carried without invading those rights of conscience which are established by the laws of G-d, and guaranteed by the constitution of the state.” What the schools got was a kind of generalized Protestantism, based on the Bible. In the American system, the school supplied Christian “character-building” and the parents, at home, topped up with sectarian trimmings.

As America took on the characteristics of a secular state, there were objections to the moral character building in the schools with specifically Protestant labels. Gradually, and especially in the big cities, religion as such was eased out of the schools.

But something had to supply the cultural machinery by which the immigrant millions were turned into Americans and the schools had to have some spiritual foundation. Therefore, since the State was not Christian but republican, republicanism should constitute it. So in this way, the American way of life began to function as the operative creed of the public schools and it was gradually accepted as the official philosophy of American state education.

End Paul Johnson paraphrase.

What he’s saying is that the religion of America is not Christianity but republicanism, the “American Way of Life.” And that is what we Americans fervently believe. We believe in the “Cult of the Constitution.” We are willing to die for it. We believe in individual freedom and individual responsibility. The rule of law. Sure, we’ve fucked up but we learn from our mistakes, correct them and move on. I served in a military unit whose motto was “To Liberate the Oppressed.” What other country or society, other than America, has a military unit devoted to that ideal? None.

Trash us all you want. I don’t care if everyone on this planet hates me. I’m doing what I know is right.

De Opresso Liber

#253 cba

It's gone 7pm here and you are just finishing your first beer? Isn't it after 9pm your time? Try and keep up could you :))

As for quoting from the FAQ it's a no brainer, you and your helpers did a great job.

You're in Winnipeg?

I really don't care if America's attempts to change the world result in violence - because there is always someone who doesn't want to change, and resists through violence. I would simply hope that the violence is appropriate.

For example, if some crazed terrorist shoots up four unarmed contractors, barbecues them, and hangs them on a bridge in Fallujah, I would expect that their violence would be met and overcome by superior force, which may involve violence. I don't believe it's of any use to forswear "violence" as some bugaboo.

Europe has grown old, tired, weak, and fearful, and hopes that the Islamization will hit them last; they hope that America will be brought to her knees first so that they can rejoice and distribute candy.

Europe at one time had the courage to discover the world - now it retreats in cowardice.

Feh.

#258 oi vey
You wrote:
"you do not have the obligation"
"you do not have the right"

How do you know this? What or who gave you the right and obligation to decide who has what right and what obligation?

Why is it that Europeans tell Israel that they do not have the right to defend themselves? Who gave them that right? Where did they get this self-supplied air of superiority?

The US is acting in its own interests, as it perceives it. Other states do the same.

Where do you get the notion that in order to defend itself, the US needs the permission of say France or the Euros or maybe that collection of mostly dictatorial governments that comprise the UN?

Your objections sound like the whining of weak Euro states who cannot do anything because of their lack of power, and make a virtue out of their impotence.

260

Korea, Viet Nam and now Iraq.

And please don't site that South Korea is on your side. If you look at the current situation in Sout Korea they hate you and your meddling into what they think they could solve without you. South Korea hates the US, Viet Nam hates the US and now Iraq.

I am sure when you decide that Syria and Iran are imenent threats to your policy and invade them as well, they will hate you even more.

Oi Vey, Arrogant Arse,

Who deigned YOU to lecture us on race relations, women's rights, or foreign policy?

You're not REALLY trying a comparison to Sweden, are you? Are you?

There simply is no better country than this one. Period.

If you cannot see the myriad of ways in which this is true, and has been for the past almost one hundred years at least, and continues to be, you are either too ignorant to deserve comment or you are simply being your obviously intentionally unctious, silly self.

EE

Precisely my point to you all here, I don't have the right, but I didn't start a war either.

In kind America does not have carte blanche to do thier bidding.

I'll save the Israel topic for another debate, it is off topic for this one.

EE:

Surely you have met some intelligent women. And surely you have met some stupid men. Do the facts jibe with the theory that women have less intelligence than men?

It is beyond our feeble intellect to discern how Michael Moore is intellectually superior to Margaret Thatcher and Marie Curie.

Do we have to listen to this on the Thursday before Memorial Day, when we pay tribute to all of our fallen in foreign wars, and still we have no global empire? We do not.

Oi vey is an ass. "Hey, nobody likes you! Everybody hates you! Hahahahaha!" Sounds about ten years old.

Oi Vey,

So what part of France are you from?

Oh, and what's up with your nic?

From 1934 to 1974, 62,000 Swedes were sterilized as part of a national program grounded in the science of racial biology and carried out by officials who believed they were helping to build a progressive, enlightened welfare state...In some cases, couples judged to be inferior parents were sterilized, as were their children when they became teenagers.

Sweden, arbiter of all that is good and kind.

Oy Vey,

So the Koreans, the Vietnamese and the Iraqis hate the US.

Excuse my but you obviously are living in some kind of alternate universe.

If we completely opened our borders to all people from these countries there would be massive immigration.

The people of these countries would vote with their feet.

You are French.
You are anti-Israel and anti-semitic.

I can smell it from here.

274

You don't realise the immigration game yet. People immigrate to the US to rip it off and put thier money back in thier respective countries. If you don't believe it is true I can't help you.

People do not immgrate to America because they love it, they do it because for now they have to. Given the choice I am sure many would not prefer America.

I live here in a metropolitan area and can see this going on.

No I am not French, and as I said before I am not entering a debate over Israel.

I smell French.