The Maldives will be only the beginning... next will be Europe and then America!

I thought Penn was a last bastion of sanity in the Ivies.

Guess not.

Because the Maldives is by constitutional mandate an Islamic nation and, as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim, the code will be the world’s first criminal code of modern format that is based upon the principles of Shari’a.

And far-lefties bitch about the U.S. and Israel being "theocracies."

They'll never get it.

Course materials: You will be required to produce your own rope with which they will hang you.

"...and as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim". Or else what?

Ivy League = insanity. Sorry, I know there are people who survived the Ivy League reeducation camps with their reasoning powers intact.

Perhaps the goal is to leaven shari'a through the infusion of the tenets of the Western legal tradition.

In other words, the accused will be presumed innocent until proven beheaded.

Great example of the famed Islamic tolerance for other religions:

Because the Maldives is by constitutional mandate an Islamic nation and, as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim [...]

The UN continues its illustrious role as bootlicker enabler facilitator to dictatorial fascist states. But Israel must tear down that wall!

I'm betting this course will be full of strivers and wannabe bureaucrats who'd like nothing better than a free trip to the Maldives under UN auspices to impose Sharia "law" on the natives. Think of all the shmoozing and ass-kissing you could get in...

Speaking as a former law student, this is beyond insane.

I wonder if they'll maintain "habeas corpus", or will it be "habeas caput"?

The students who write this law should then be forced to go live under it as "Muslim citizens by law." I'm sure the radical feminists will love wearing the burqua...

Two lawyers are walking down the street.

A beautiful woman walks by them. One stares at the woman, then looks to the other and states "boy would I love to fuck her".

The other responds "Out of what?"

One of the sickest things I've read for some time, but not surprising, unfortunately. Even Harvard Law School has an Islamic Legal Studies Program, dedicated to" promote a deep appreciation of Islamic law as one of the world's major legal systems. The Program supports the needs and interests of scholars and students from all parts of the globe and endeavors to mirror the universality of Islam itself:

[Link: www.law.harvard.edu...]

NY Times editorial defends celebrities rights to deliver sermons from stage,chastizes audiences lack of discipline and disobedience...

Desperadoes

Something went awry at the Aladdin Hotel in Las Vegas last Saturday night. Linda Ronstadt did what she has done at several concerts across the country this summer. She dedicated the song "Desperado"- an encore - to Michael Moore and urged members of the audience to go see his new movie, "Fahrenheit 9/11."

Elsewhere, audiences have reacted to the mention of Mr. Moore by cheering, booing, walking out and sometimes glaring at one another in parking lots. At the Aladdin, a few audience members tore down posters, threw drinks and demanded their money back. According to one person who was present - William Timmins, the Aladdin's president - it was "a very ugly scene." Mr. Timmins promptly made it even uglier. He had Ms. Ronstadt ejected from the premises.

This behavior assumes that Ms. Ronstadt had no right to express a political opinion from the stage. It implies - for some members of the audience at least - that there is a philosophical contract that says an artist must entertain an audience only in the ways that audience sees fit. It argues, in fact, that an artist like Ms. Ronstadt does not have the same rights as everyone else.

Perhaps her praise for Mr. Moore, even at the very end of her show, did ruin the performance for some people. They have a right to voice their disapproval - to express their opinion as Ms. Ronstadt expressed hers and to ask for a refund. But if their intemperate behavior began to worry the management, then they were the ones who should have been thrown out and told never to return, not Ms. Ronstadt, who threatened, after all, only to sing.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Does Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch protest human rights violations when they take the form of a class project?

Aaarrrggghhh, I can't take this anymore!

I hope they plan to pay the students for this and I hope the students give "the law" a royal fucking and revision. Come on kids! Turn their world upside down and everywhich way.

Maybe some of the students will sue the school for some sort of breech or something.

Let me see if I understand, a bunch of infidels are going to write the criminal code for a Muslim country where "as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim"?

and, as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim,

Good Lord, could you imagine the screaming on the Left if that last word read "Christian" or "Jewish"?

#19 BeckoningChasm

Good Lord, could you imagine the screaming on the Left if that last word read "Christian" or "Jewish"?

OTOH, "Communist" would fill up the class.

The "as a matter of law" thing got me wondering - is there any country where citizens are a particular religion as a matter of law where the religion in question is not Islam?

Don't think so.

Before any more LGF gaskets are blown, consider the following "mitigating circumstances."

1. Sharia Law, as I understand it, does not consist of a monolithic and single-minded system, but has many conflicting threads and schools of thought. I can assume that an American law school would search out the more liberal schools of thought.

2. Let's wait for the final product before we throw any more condemnations toward Penn's way. If they come out with a draft code that discriminates against women and has amputations, then denounce away. Somehow, once again, I don't see an American Law School class doing that.

3. Sharia Law is in its own way no more illegitimate than English Common Law or the Civil Law systems of Europe, or Chinese customary law. It has been in use in many countries for centuries, and has evolved over those centuries, just as other customary law systems have. Sharia Law does not have to be "Nazi law" as Charles' correspondent stated.

4. Maybe the scary part of this for LGF'ers is that these law students might actually come up with a modern, humane, and just legal code based upon Sharia Law. And then all those thought patterns so prevalent among the Islamohaters on this site would have to be flushed down the toilet.

And this is at Penn! Good thing Brown doesn't have a law school!

This is truly beyond the pale. Someone should alert Alan Klor at Penn, the antipolitical correctness guru.

I'm sure this is an exciting project for PC students, gettting to be the first in their living quarters to have provided death by stoning for rape victims who can't provide 4 male witnesses on their side.

This is truly revolting, the world turned upside down, when Academic institutions which claim devotion to the ideals of the West and academic freedom , to be helping write an intolerant legal code based upon a weird 7th century llex talonis. Bah.

Which professor is it?

The UN -- sharia connection was a theory I had. Now, I think the theory needs to be fleshed out.

Why does the UN want to rule the world using sharia?
1) Abuse of women.
2) Abuse of children.
3) No freedom of religion.
4) No democracy.
5) No secular law.
6) All of the above.

OT: UN chief urges Israel to commit suicide

[Link: news.xinhuanet.com...]

i am now officially ashamed to be a resident of pennsylvania

/did i say that out loud?

Please remember the LGF prayer.

The phrase "as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim" leapt out at me, too.

Where's the condemnation in the UN?

/moment of insanity

Al Gordo,

Once again for your benefit "and as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim". What is the penalty for apostasy, Gordon? And how does this reconcile with your "talking points ' 1-4?

(#22) Gordon

3. Sharia Law is in its own way no more illegitimate than English Common Law or the Civil Law systems of Europe, or Chinese customary law. It has been in use in many countries for centuries, and has evolved over those centuries, just as other customary law systems have.

Ohhh kkayyy.

Gordon, how about taking a trip to Nigeria or Pakistan, and walk down the street carrying a sign saying "Mohammed sucks!"

I mean, you will only be tried under "legitimate" law, so what's to worry?

/Side note: My former law firm, as a pro bono project, had some associates draft various sections of the post-Taliban Constitution for Afghanistan. I'm told they were under instructions to include unprecedented protections for women - but I have no idea what the final product looked like.

BTW, I emailed my MP to express my deep disgust with Canada's abstention yesterday. Her assistant emailed back asking for my phone number because she wants to call me to discuss it.

My MP is personally on the side of the angels, but her party sucks.

#27 JimmyTheClaw 7/21/2004 11:36AM PST

"i am now officially ashamed to be a resident of pennsylvania"

Nah, it's the law school which should be ashamed and not you.

Gordon:

(and I'm not nomarlly one of your detractors)

They're drafting a code for a country that mandates one relgion. What part of that don't you find wrong?

Ot
And meanwhile in Israel IAF is unveiling its first all-woman fighter squadron YES!

Oh, blow it out a hole of your choice, Gordon. The fundamental problem here is the bland little statement that "as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim [in the Maldives]."

Any legal system based on such a mandate is inherently fascist and intolerant from the get-go.

Now, if the class were asked to revise the constitution, beginning with such legally mandated exclusion of non-Muslims from citizens' rights, I might see a reason to hope.

More information on the Maldives:

[Link: www.cia.gov...]

A reasonably Democratic state with 100% Sunni Muslim population. Another LGF shibboleth down the toilet.

If you want the Maldives to disappear, keep on driving those SUV's. The whole nation may go away if sea levels rise - the highest point on any of the atolls is 2.4 meters.

Interesting story about how the Maldives converted to Islam in the 14th Century. No Jihad involved apparently, unless a crafty missionary is considered a Jihadist.

[Link: www.visitmaldives.com...]

The religious intolerance of a "Muslim-only" nation is, unfortunately, true.

[Link: www.religioustolerance.org...]

Dang it, why do you have to feed him?

GOOD!

Maybe this will open a few eyes as to what sharia is all about. Get some feminist law students to draft laws punishing rape victims with death by stoning, etc...

Last I heard, the Republicans controlled both the executive and legislative branches of government at the federal level, with a majority of Justices on the Supreme Court, and a majority of the state governors too.

The fear of taking on the Left and the Islamofascists here in the US continues to be the signal failure of W's Administration.

The SCOTUS opened the door for this with their inane considerations of "international law" in some of their deliberations.

Time to found the United States of Dodge City and take out the trash...

Maybe the scary part of this for LGF'ers is that these law students might actually come up with a modern, humane, and just legal code based upon Sharia Law.

Oh yeah, I'm shaking in my boots.

BTW, how's that silk purse sewing project of yours coming? If you need any more sow's ears for it, just let me know.

Gordon:

Sharia Law is in its own way no more illegitimate than English Common Law or the Civil Law systems of Europe, or Chinese customary law. It has been in use in many countries for centuries, and has evolved over those centuries, just as other customary law systems have. Sharia Law does not have to be "Nazi law" as Charles' correspondent stated

The only places where Sharia Law is enforced have codes like Saudi Arabias, and punish apostacy, adultary and a whole host of things running the gamut all the way through the alphabet to Zoroastrianism. Where the codes are more "humane" than that, the changes have been forced upon the Moslems by the West. It may not be entirely monolithic, but it is all equally intolerant of other religions and suppressive of womens' rights. The key thing to understand is that Islamic law has essentially not evolved, and did not grow naturally in the same way as the Common Law or Chinese customary law. It is more akin to European Civil Law, in the sense that the European Civil Law codes all derive from the Code Napoleon, imposed by French bayonets, since Moslem law was spread by the sword. The difference is that the writers of the Code Napoleon had an historical legal tradition in Europed dating to the Roman Empire. Arabia was in the grip of lex talonis and an almost Hobbesian state when Mohammand did his Joseph Smith act.

1. Sharia Law, as I understand it, does not consist of a monolithic and single-minded system, but has many conflicting threads and schools of thought. I can assume that an American law school would search out the more liberal schools of thought.

No! It's their culture! I thought you understood, we can't reform their culture. It's unique, and must be preserved as is. Any attempt to impose "the more liberal schools of thought" by anyone is racist and imperialistic!

2. Let's wait for the final product before we throw any more condemnations toward Penn's way. If they come out with a draft code that discriminates against women and has amputations, then denounce away. Somehow, once again, I don't see an American Law School class doing that.

I can't believe this! Let a US LAW SCHOOL dictate what is and ins't Sharia? How can we possibly DO that? What right do we have to say that they are wrong for following it to the letter?

3. Sharia Law is in its own way no more illegitimate than English Common Law or the Civil Law systems of Europe, or Chinese customary law. It has been in use in many countries for centuries, and has evolved over those centuries, just as other customary law systems have. Sharia Law does not have to be "Nazi law" as Charles' correspondent stated.

I thought you had lost it there. Of course it's legitimate! It's their culture, of course. How can we say their culture isn't legitimate? I bet that the "correspondent" is racist, and only wants to do this class so he can pass judgement and realize his imperialist ambitions!

4. Maybe the scary part of this for LGF'ers is that these law students might actually come up with a modern, humane, and just legal code based upon Sharia Law. And then all those thought patterns so prevalent among the Islamohaters on this site would have to be flushed down the toilet.

Well, they might, and it would be good. But you can't be a racist and imperialistic and impose it on their culture just because we say. They have different values than we do, and what is acceptable to us might not be to them. We should just leave their culture alone, and let it be!

#36 Gordon

A reasonably Democratic state with 100% Sunni Muslim population. Another LGF shibboleth down the toilet.

Are you functionally illiterate? We started with the premise you MUST BE A MUSLIM TO LIVE THERE.

#1 Nannette,

The Maldives will be only the beginning... next will be Europe and then America!

It does seem possible. Haven't there already been attempts to implement Shari'a law in Canada?
I would love to see this great country stay great, but it really does seem to be going downhill. It's not a steep noticeable slope either. It's a gradual, barely perceptible decline with a call to prayer here, an anti-Semite back in office there, the study of Shari'a law in the classroom, and the pro-Pali protest outside of it.

I'm not so sure anymore that I would want to fight for a country that wants to commit suicide.

I'm surprised the Maldives & the UN would allow "infidels" to have anything to say about their nefarious "sharia."

Maybe they'll write a law which outlaws sharia? And maybe all mosque/armories will spontaneously combust during Friday prayers.

Gordon:

Being so close to sea level must make it easier to drive the apostates and non-muslims into it... democratically speaking, of course.

On one hand it is a salient for the introduction of modernization into the body of Islam; consider it a virus, after all, the moral basis of Western criminal law is Judeo/Christian(ahem!). On the other hand, shari'a is, as others observe, not Law but theological prescript; on another hand the Maldives are cross cultural; on another hand it is the University of Pennsylvania of PC water buffalo shame.

All things considered one runs out of hands.

One hopes that some of the students may learn the difference between the two types of Law and come to reject Allah's.

Well, this thread is derailed. I'm outta here.

#27 JimmyTheClaw

i am now officially ashamed to be a resident of pennsylvania

/did i say that out loud?

LOL... since I technically still have student status (LLMs are great hehe), I seriously considered trying to get into this little project, see what they're doing, etc, but I have a feeling being 100% Jewish would invalidate me from consideration.

#30 SoCalJustice

(#22) Gordon

3. Sharia Law is in its own way no more illegitimate than English Common Law or the Civil Law systems of Europe, or Chinese customary law. It has been in use in many countries for centuries, and has evolved over those centuries, just as other customary law systems have.

Ohhh kkayyy.

Gordon, how about taking a trip to Nigeria or Pakistan, and walk down the street carrying a sign saying "Mohammed sucks!"

I mean, you will only be tried under "legitimate" law, so what's to worry?

/Side note: My former law firm, as a pro bono project, had some associates draft various sections of the post-Taliban Constitution for Afghanistan. I'm told they were under instructions to include unprecedented protections for women - but I have no idea what the final product looked like.

And dollars to donuts it wasn't based on shit, er, shari'a, either.

Lysander

#2: I thought Penn was a last bastion of sanity in the Ivies.

Not even close. Of Penn employees who have given to a presidential campaign this cycle, 95% of the gifts went to Kerry.

That was slightly higher than the Ivy average -- 92% to Kerry. Unbelievable.

Source.

Amendments to the Constitution: Article I

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

Shari'a does exactly the opposite of all the above.

And yet US law students using our tax dollars, under the full protection of our Constitution, to take these rights away from some foreign country is okay??

If you think thats hunky-dory, you're an idiot.

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this project, if guided in the right direction, is an excellent academic attempt to see if a modern code of law, with modern enlightened conceptions of justice, can be crafted using Sharia law as the basis. I agree that if an LLL loony is running the class, it will get nowhere. But a class that refuses to compromise universal concepts of modern justice in its work will provide an interesting work product.

Uh, where have I heard this before

"We the dhimmis of the Maldives Islands, in order to form a more perfect umma, establish sharia, ensure domestic tranquility (through wife-beatings), provide for common jihad, promote the general welfare state, and secure the blessings of religious oppression to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain, and establish this Constitution for the Maldives Islands"

The scary part for this LGFer is that the UN and an American University are together underwriting the national legal code for the "muslim only" Maldives, based on sharia. That scares me on many levels, as it should anyone who cherishes liberal, Western civilization and national self determination.

Sure, it could be a kinder, gentler sharia. Or, they could stone gays and adulterers -- on suspicion -- at worst or, maybe at best, make any other form of religious expression illegal. Not the type of progressive and tolerant society either the UN or any American University ought to be supporting. In my scared little LGF opinion.

#53 GORDON

Go look at #44, idiot. You have been skewered.

This is part of the total moral collapse of a whole section of the Left. The same people beat up gays for protesting at rallies against the homophobia in Palestine, and see oppression as 'cultural' in the Middle East.

Professor Robinson’s Criminal Law Theory Seminar has been CANCELLED

And being replaced by actual criminals.

Sharia says: follow Muslim leaders, like monkeys.
[Link: news.xinhuanet.com...]

BEIJING, July 21 (Xinhuanet) -- Iran's dissident academic Hashem Aghajari was sentenced to five years behind bar by hardline judiciary on Tuesday for saying Muslims should not blindly follow their clerical leaders like "monkeys," his lawyer said.

According to Wednesday's China Daily, the sentence marked a major climb down by the judiciary which originally condemned Aghajari to death for blasphemy after making the speech in 2002.

His speech "Are people monkeys to emulate someone else," touched a raw nerve at the heart of clerical rule in Iran by questioning the Shi'ite Muslim doctrine in which ordinary believers are obliged to emulate a senior cleric qualified to interpret the Koran..

The death sentence, issued by a provincial court in western Iran, sparked some of the largest student protests for years and fueled international concern about restrictions on free speech in the Islamic state.

The Supreme Court in June overturned the blasphemy verdict after many senior clerics said it was too harsh. A re-trial was held in Tehran earlier this month, said Wednesday's China Daily...

Sharia says: West-Muslims must have segregation.

[Link: www.trinidadexpress.com...]

There is a plan to establish Muslim villages in Trinidad and Tobago.

Speaking of the plan yesterday, Maulana Imran Hosein said it was born of the need to protect and preserve Islam from the ills of society such as alcohol, fornication, adultery, illegitimate children, homosexuality, lesbianism and murders...

He said non-Muslims who visit the village will not be able to "walk with a bottle of beer or walk half-naked down the streets"...

He said there would be no mansions and since toilets were considered unclean places, buildings in the village will have no toilets...

If I wanted to be free from murder, the last place I would want to live would be a "Muslim village."

# 53 Nodrog:

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this project, if guided in the right direction, is an excellent academic attempt to see if a modern code of law, with modern enlightened conceptions of justice, can be crafted using Sharia law as the basis.

I'll drink to that.

Is it drinking time yet?

#53: Gordon

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this project, if guided in the right direction, is an excellent academic attempt to see if a modern code of law, with modern enlightened conceptions of justice, can be crafted using Sharia law as the basis.

What a waste of time and resources. Sharia and the inherent pillars of it are qua definitionem anti-modern. Synthesis is futile.

Even if something half-decent is drafted by the university, there is no guarantee it will actually be implemented.

The unasked question: Are there no law schools in the muslim countries up to this task? Can they be that useless that they have to outsource the drafting of a muslim criminal code to a US school?

I nominate Gordon to be ON SITE inspector of Sharia Law for all muzz countries.

Allah Speed Gordon!
Enjoy the raisins.

I almost never feed the trolls, but, well, is Gordon a troll?

Gordon Gordon Gordon. Study up on shari'a before you run your mouth. A few minor aspects of shari'a are open to interpretation, but most major aspects are not, and never have been. They include:

a. Immediate death sentence for apostasy -- i.e. attempting to leave Islam
b. Enforced dhimmitude for non-Muslims: they always have fewer rights than Muslims. (And this is in a best-case scenario: often they are expelled or killed as a matter of law).
c. Gender discrimination in hundreds of ways -- women always have fewer rights than men.
d. Immediate death sentence for homosexuality.
e. Rules for evidence, testimony and trials that seem absolutely absurd by Western standards -- i.e. no gaurantee of anything near what we would call a "fair trial."
f. No mechanism for ever changing shari'a law: it is a matter of religious dictate, not democratic vote.
g. Etc. etc. etc. I could type for hours.

As others have said, the only time any Muslim nation has any hint of decency in its legal system, it's because it is a legacy left over from some Western-style legal system imported by unbelievers.

The law I'm now searching for is the one that will used to prosecute this professor for violating the human rights of an entire nation.

#59 Peace:

He said there would be no mansions and since toilets were considered unclean places, buildings in the village will have no toilets...

Let's see...

No mansions (we're all equal here): check.

No toilets (shit runns through the street): check.

Pretence that establishing your ideal villages will preserve them from the "ills of society such as alcohol, fornication, adultery, illegitimate children, homosexuality, lesbianism and murders...": check.

Islam = Stalinism. Check!

Gorden:

you wrote:
A reasonably Democratic state with 100% Sunni Muslim population. Another LGF shibboleth down the toilet.

Exactly how do you define "reasonably Democratic." Either you didn't read the description of Maldives government, or your definition of "reasonably Democratic" is pretty weird.

You wrote:
Interesting story about how the Maldives converted to Islam in the 14th Century. No Jihad involved apparently, unless a crafty missionary is considered a Jihadist.

Yes, a very interesting story. Do you actually believe it? Even the web page called it a "legend." Most cultures have relegated their tales of virgin-eating monsters to legends.

Nodrog:

Now I can't use your name in place of "he whose name shall not be spoken." Just a minor inconvenience.

Don't look now but there is a low-speed car chase on FOX!!!

WOuldn't want to distract the world from the real crap.

I don't know how I feel about this. It may be a real eye opener for the casual LLL law student.

A criminal code typically spells out the definitions of crimes and the punishment for each. I wonder how much criminal procedure is involved in this model sharia code. This is the intersection of the state's power to prosecute an accused and an individual's rights. In the US, these are the rights that are spelled out in, or flow from, the Constitution, e.g., due process, presumption of innocence, no double jeopardy, right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures, right to privacy, right to counsel, habeas corpus, etc. Some flow from state law (most crimes are defined by the states) such as the rights on appeal.

Being the idealists they are, the law students will probably infuse so much of their US Constitutional Law doctrine in the code so as to render it completely haram. Or, the cognative dissonance will cause them to drop it altogether.

Gordon's fantasy about sharia doctrine working harmoniously with modern concepts of criminal law and criminal procedure is laughable. They are at absolute odds with each other. Further, since the sharia is handed down from Allah through his messenger (therefore immutable), and modern criminal justice concepts are merely man-made artifices, you can bet any conflict will be settled in favor of 7th century muslim justice.

Beagle in #25 has an interesting point. How far of a stretch is it for a scenario like this: Muslim countries demand that Muslims living in ANY country be allowed (or forced to) live under Sharia. They take the case to the International Clown Court in The Hague, which then rules that it is a valid claim. It issues an opinion "instructing" every nation to have Sharia law for Muslims. It's a stretch, but given what we are hearing about the "moral" weight of the Court's decision on the wall, who knows?

Since when is Maldives a Muslim Country???

Andrew B.

Israel is Real

#13 et al

I actually took a class in Islamic jurisprudence at Harvard Law School under Professor Frank Vogel, who alternates between being very critical of Islam and being a total Saudi shill at seemingly random intervals.

One of the exercises was a mock court in which I was the qadi. I ended up sentencing two guys to 79 lashes apiece for bringing an accusation of adultery against a woman which was insufficiently supported by evidence.

Of course, had it been a real sharia court, the girl probably would have ended up under a hail of stones.

#74 scott in east bay

It could be a way to bring the United States and Israel down. I'm not Dr. Evil enough today. You can't think like the UN without your Dr. Evil cap.

#60 RickZ 7/21/2004 11:58AM PST
# 53 Nodrog:

That's not me!

Any chance we can exhort this lizaroid law student at UPenn to file sexual harassment charges once the discussions get down to the nitty gritty about how all women being barefoot, burquah'd and in the kitchen, homosexuals being dragged from cars, etc?

no federal student loans for U of Penn-Law school anymore, huh?
Does this devalue the UPenn law school degree?
Maybe graduates should demand their tuition money back...

This credit course sounds to me like what we used to call a bird course in university. Just think how easy this assignment is given the following crimes:

Stealing: amputation
Homosexuality: execution
Jaywalking: execution
Farting in public: execution
Raping a woman: execution (of the woman that is - you know honour and such)
Being a kuffir: execution
Murder: hey that's a tough one - depends upon who was murdered (i.e. a Jew - free pass, Muslim - execution unless the government did it - see Iran et al)

You get the picture - this should be a snap.

Just beware the day Sharia 101 moves from being an elective to being mandatory, and US Constitutional Law moves to the history department.

The seminar will revolve around a single project: drafting a new criminal code for the Maldives. The work has been requested by the Maldivian government and is sponsored by the United Nations Development Program.

Is this a joke?

Does anyone realize how incredible this is, that a "sovereign nation" would completely turn over the drafting of its criminal code to non-citizens who will never have to live under those laws?

Are a bunch of law students seriously going to draft laws that criminalize apostasy from Islam, and reduce women to property, knowing that these laws will be inflicted on real, live human beings?

Au revoir, France

"I am convinced that the fate of France is sealed ... because the situation is moving irreversibly towards the final swing in 2050 which will see French stock amounting to only half the population of the country, the remainder comprising Africans, Moors and Asians of all sorts from the inexhaustible reserve of the Third World, predominantly Islamic ... this dance is only the beginning. "France is not the only concern. All of Europe marches to its death.

"What I cannot understand and which plunges me into an abyss of sorry perplexity, is why and how so many informed Frenchmen and so many French politicians contribute knowingly, methodically, I don't dare to say cynically, to the certain immolation of France ... on the altar of an aggravated utopian humanism."
— French novelist Jean Raspail, writing on "The Fatherland Betrayed by the Republic," in the June 17 issue of Figaro

African asylum seekers should be housed in camps during processing: Germany

Africans hoping to seek asylum in Europe should be put up in camps in North Africa while EU officials study their case, Germany's interior minister has suggested, according to a newspaper report Wednesday. Otto Schily told the Bild tabloid that "Africa's problems must be resolved in Africa, with the support of Europe." The camps would house them while their applications were processed, he was reported to have said. He gave no other details of his proposal. A spokesman for the interior ministry said Schily's suggestion was made in response to a European Union request to all member states for new approaches to the issue of asylum seekers.

#80 AI

She had no witnesses.

However, the witnesses against her were blood-feud enemies of the dude she was supposedly schtupping, and they admitted under questioning that they had not actually witnessed any fornication, just suspected it.

The punishment prescribed for the hadd (Quranic crime) of a false accusation of adultery (which in most Islamic schools includes any extra or premarital sex, except when it's a married man and his concubine) is 80 lashes. However, the guys in this case didn't qualify for the hadd (I forget what technical aspect was lacking) So my fellow qadi and I were limited to 79 lashes.

@22 Nodrog

"Maybe the scary part of this for LGF'ers is that these law students might actually come up with a modern, humane, and just legal code based upon Sharia Law."

A modern humane just legal code based upon shar'ia law. What ever it is you're smoking, I want some to aid in getting rid of the indigestion I just got from reading your outrageous post.
You are a fool gordon.

With any luck these legal intellects will remain on hand to see their Sharia Code adopted and then promptly find themselves incarcerated and worse for violating it.

Gordon, are you available to volunteer for this project?

OMG you HAVE to see the lead picture on the Drudge Report before it's taken down.

Beagle- well, after that post above about Muslim villages in Trinidad, my thoughts may not be so out there after all.

Another little question for Gordon - what happens in the Maldives, where "everyone is Muslim" by law, when Mohammed comes home one day and says he has found Jesus? Or Krishna? Or Buddha? The holy UN says in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that freedom of religion is a basic right. Hmmm? Will he be allowed to leave Islam, or will he just get stoned?

#59 peace be upon me 7/21/2004 11:58AM PST

There is a plan to establish Muslim villages in Trinidad and Tobago.

isnt that the island chain we used for H-bomb tests years ago

#67 Zombie: If you are right, then the project will fail, and you and all the other Islamophobes on this site will be vindicated. You will have representative proof that your thesis about Sharia Law and Islam is validated.

But if you are wrong and the project succeeds, I bet you and the other LGF irregulars won't be man enough to admit it.

The most charitable interpretation here is that "the code will be the world’s first criminal code of modern format that is based upon the principles of Shari’a" means that only some principles of Shar'a will be included, not all of them. As many have pointed out, those Muslim countries with more tolerant legal codes are usually those with a history of Western colonialism, like Egypt or Tunisia or Morocco. Maybe this will end up being another one of those times. I have a hard time seeing American law students drafting a code that endorses things like execution for apostasy or needing two male witnesses to prove a charge of rape. But who knows?

One thing is for sure: the law requiring all citizens to be Muslim won't change. I assume that's not part of the criminal code anyway.

I'll be very interested in seeing the results of this exercise, assuming that it goes forward.

Charles - please ask the Penn student who sent this to send updates.

#56 Beagle

#53 GORDON

Go look at #44, idiot. You have been skewered.

I doubt he'd get it, really.

#67 zombie

I almost never feed the trolls, but, well, is Gordon a troll?

Yea, trolls abound. At least it's only one, but usually they have attendant orcs or kobolds.

#76 ibn Abu

#13 et al

I actually took a class in Islamic jurisprudence at Harvard Law School under Professor Frank Vogel, who alternates between being very critical of Islam and being a total Saudi shill at seemingly random intervals.

One of the exercises was a mock court in which I was the qadi. I ended up sentencing two guys to 79 lashes apiece for bringing an accusation of adultery against a woman which was insufficiently supported by evidence.

Of course, had it been a real sharia court, the girl probably would have ended up under a hail of stones.

LOL. Well, the "poor" professor probably couldn't figure out which democrat faction to support - could you see the wheels spinning in his head: support NOW aginst the mysogyny, or support the Muslims against western encroachment?
Hmm... one law class does not a counselor make, but would ye be a new addition to the LGF Law fraternity? hehe

Lysander

#14 Ted,

Classic NYT fascisti reasoning. Not only does Linda Ronstadt have a right to spew her personal political opinons, but you must be forced to listen -- with a qualifed right to politiely ask for a refund later.

Think Linda will be giving out the refunds? I don't, Linda spews, causes the problem, and it becomes the casino's obligation to pay the refunds.

Classic socialist/fascist NTY thinking and approach to enforcing lockstep conformity with LLL beliefs -- and all on someone elses dime.

#95
Hmm... one law class does not a counselor make, but would ye be a new addition to the LGF Law fraternity? hehe

Sworn in and everything.
Though sadly, my application for admission to the Holy Muhammad Shariah Bar Association of Saudi Arabia continues to be denied.

so bummed to hear about the maldives. i heard the islands are a lovely place to honeymoon. but probably not a good idea for a nice couple of the Hebrew persuasion to go visiting at present when they are busy implementing sharia criminal law.

and being a graduated Quaker, i'm not the least bit surprised by my alma matur -- i can't remember one professor during my tenrure who was not a lefty in some way, shape or form (and i never had the privilege of taking a class with Kors) - and in those days i was more of a lefty yet it was still apparent to me! oh, the price of getting older and wiser...

#94 BPP --"Charles - please ask the Penn student who sent this to send updates."

Yes, please. I want to be kept abreast of U of P's efforts to help construct Apartheid states.

Further Prerequisite: It is mandatory, so that we don't offend the muslim community, that a student not be a jew, have visited Israel at any time in the past, or be a woman.

#13 Norwegian kafir

HARVARD:The Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques Adjunct Professor of Islamic Legal Studies

[Link: www.law.harvard.edu...]

Looks to me to be Saudi funded

#97 ibn Abu

Sworn in and everything.
Though sadly, my application for admission to the Holy Muhammad Shariah Bar Association of Saudi Arabia continues to be denied.

Yours too? Maybe listing religious affiliation wasn't a good idea ;) At least they haven't come looking for me!

Maybe we really should have an LGF Bar Association... there seems to be enough of us to kick it off.

Lysander

#101

Or a homosexual
Or a beer drinker

#93 Gordon -- "#67 Zombie: If you are right, then the project will fail, and you and all the other Islamophobes on this site will be vindicated. You will have representative proof that your thesis about Sharia Law and Islam is validated. But if you are wrong and the project succeeds, I bet you and the other LGF irregulars won't be man enough to admit it."

Gordo, as the reigning Infidelophobe on this site, will you be man enough to admit it if you are wrong?

OT

Arafat orders media lockdown:

But the most troubling aspect of Mr. Arafat's reassertion of control was a warning to Palestinian journalists to cease all coverage of the kind of street protests that rocked the Gaza Strip and some West Bank cities last weekend. Reporters have also been threatened with severe punishment if they depict clashes between rival groups in the Gaza Strip, such as the gunfight in Rafah that injured 12 people on Sunday.

The ban effectively prevents international news outlets from covering these events, since they depend on Palestinian photographers, reporters and editors to produce news footage and written copy for broadcasters, print media and wire services.

The last time such threats were issued was in September of 2001, when Palestinian reporters were forced to suppress images of huge street celebrations in Nablus and Bethlehem after the terrorist attacks on New York and Washington. International news bureau chiefs for wire services including Reuters and Associated Press were warned that their cameramen would be in danger if their footage was broadcast in the West.

Yesterday's edict was issued through the Palestinian Journalists' Syndicate, a quasi-trade union controlled by Arafat loyalists. After an emergency meeting held to discuss latest developments, the syndicate warned that any reporter or photographer violating the ban would be severely punished.

#90 Solomon X 7/21/2004 12:25PM PST

omg i saved that one for posterity

#102

He's generally a good guy and not an LLL by any stretch of the imagination.

But his chair is heavily Saudi-funded and he is very careful not to make too many waves.

I suspected at one point that the days he was more critical of Islam (talking about honor killings etc.) coincided with the absence of a certain member of the class. Someone who reported back to Harvard's Saudi chums, perhaps? I don't know for sure.

OT

Israel sees "nuclear capable" Iran by 2007

The point is not to find a more liberal interpretation of Sharia and to unsuccessfully promote it against the more barbarian interpretations. The point is that law is temporary while Sharia is eternal. Law is software that is subject to all kinds of update and development procedures, while Sharia as a religious revelation is read-only and thus not suitable to substitute law.

oh, well, instead of honeymooning at the Maldives, it'll have to be Micronesia

link to: friendsofmicronesia.com

Yeah, an LGF Bar Association! Finally, some dues I wouldn't mind paying.

I can't speak for any other LGFers but I would be delighted if I thought it were possible to create a democratic version of shari'a.

But all evidence currently available indicates that to be an impossibility, and my conviction that the Maldives will not provide contrary evidence is based on the fact, pointed out by many posters, that by law only Muslims can be citizens. Not "the population of the Maldives is, by an amazing coincidence, 100% Sunni Muslim," but "as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim."

It's a shame. I have been to the Maldives. Absolutely beautiful. And for a Muslim country, I have never met more hospitable people

Buck -

It is mandatory, so that we don't offend the muslim community, that a student not be a jew, have visited Israel at any time in the past, or be a woman.

You're joking, but it would be no joke in the Maldives. Suppose the code were written by Jewish and/or female students. The Maldives are not the most stable place in the world - they have a recent history of coups and mercenary invasions - and if some colonel got the idea that "Jewish" law was being imposed you'd have some shooting in a hurry. More UN-sponsored instability.

Assuming that Jewish and female students - those who still have a shred of conscience left after two years of law school - would participate a project that will demean and suppress Jews and women, even though they won't be affected personally.

And here is the Maldives' Constitution: Warning - it is a long PDF document

[Link: www.presidencymaldives.gov.mv...]

The Constitution is definitely infused with Islam. For instance, the President, Vice-President, and cabinet members must be Sunni Muslim, while members of the Majlis (Congress) only have to be "muslim." The document states that the Maldives is an Islamic state. However, in the "citizenship" section, there is no religious requirement to be a citizen. So, at least by the Constitution, there is no requirement to be Muslim in order to be a Malidivean citizen.

@93 Nodrog

Your slip of jealousy tinged with green envy is showing girly.

103

Yours too? Maybe listing religious affiliation wasn't a good idea ;)

Probably. I just put down "Zionist oppressor"

Maybe we really should have an LGF Bar Association... there seems to be enough of us to kick it off.

Charles could probably use a legal defense team at some point...

OT

There's a report at Drudge about the NYT's response to Ronstadts vivid display of Moore's Disease on stage. They feel the casino's owner should be thrown out of his own hotel.
I feel that Whoopi, Linda and the whole demented blight of entertainers who are inflicted with this disease should go far away. Hide. Don't come back. And don't expect a lot of Americans to stand in line to pay too much money to watch you perform. Get over yourselves. You have free speech. But you are supposed to be working, dumb ass. We go to work to work!! No one is interested in our political beliefs at work. What supersized ego allows you to think we want to pay hard earned dollars to listen to you tell us what to think. Not to mention the insults that you spew after the show.
Michael Douglas, Penn, Robbins, Williams, the rest of you...KISS MY ASS. I hate your smug faces. Just go hide somwhere and die. Most of you can't even act.

#105 Studsup: Of course I will.

#93 Gordon:

I bet you and the other LGF irregulars won't be man enough to admit it.

I don't recall you eating much crow about the next President, Howard Dean.

Just because you are incapable of admitting your mistakes, don't assume that the rest of us a similarly ignorant.

#114 cba: See my earlier link to the Constitution. It's not in there that any Maldivean citizen must be a Muslim. It may be a law of some sort, but its not constitutional.

(#117) Gordon

Not so fast.

Scroll down to provision 134, and have a look at 134(a).

Come back and tell us what one needs to be in order to cast a vote in "elections and public referendums."

#116 Glen Wishard

Yes, that is my point exactly.

The US army won't use jewish bullets in Iraq, companies doing business in The Kingdom routinely vet out jews, and women.

I laughed out loud at your joke: "have a shred of conscience ". We are talking about law students right?

Sorry I couldn't resist.

cba -

... a democratic version of shari'a.

Democracy is a completely worthless concept unless it limits its own power by recognizing inalienable rights. Without that, democracy is just another form of tyranny. When we talk about "democracy" as a good thing in the general sense, we are assuming limited democracy that includes human and civil rights.

Since shari'a flatly denies one of the most fundamental rights of all - freedom of conscience - it can be no part of a sound democracy, period.

He's generally a good guy and not an LLL by any stretch of the imagination.

But his chair is heavily Saudi-funded and he is very careful not to make too many waves.

I suspected at one point that the days he was more critical of Islam (talking about honor killings etc.) coincided with the absence of a certain member of the class. Someone who reported back to Harvard's Saudi chums, perhaps? I don't know for sure.

Your professor is not a good guy, however much he seems so. He utterly lacks principles if he takes Saudi money and truckles to them when they can hear and snipes behind their backs. So much for academic integrity. He has none. He reminds me of the betrayer of Thomas More in A Man for All Seasons, betraying principle for a mess of potage.

#123 Gordon:
OK, thanks. That's definitely a great improvement. It's not specified in the constitution that you have to be a Muslim to be a citizen, only that you have to be a Muslim to be a member of the government.

That's fine then.

Nothing new. Actually, Nazi Germany's eugenics laws were based upon American state statutes. There were close contacts between American academics and Nazis in the early 1930's, facilitated by the Human Betterment Foundation.

The only reason why I think there wasn't a class project at an American university to rewrite Germany's legal code is that nobody thought of it at the time. Had they thought of it, it might have happened!

Seriously, the project of interpreting shari'a in a civilized manner would need to be more thorough than a college seminar could accomplish. On the other hand, this could be fun... One could take the Iraqi legal formula that a law must not be contrary to "universally agreed upon Islamic values". Then, all one needs to do is find some Muslim, ANY Muslim, even Irshad Manji, to find a problem with some provision of Islamic law and POOF! It disappears. Whenever possible, use the most lenient Islamic school (like the Hanafi school). [Translation: stay away from the Hanbali school...] If possible, cull general legal principles from Sufi writings and write the criminal code based upon mystical interpretations of Islamic texts.

I wonder if it's possible to swamp the Maldives shari'a class with a bunch of "protest warrior" legal scholars who will find ways to interpret Islamic law in a manner wildly different from anything done before. For example, beheading would be a waste of resources for the society as a whole, so any death penalty would be commuted to five years of hard labor. Also, the traditional punishment of stoning could be changed to getting stoned, as in being required to smoke a reefer instead. Now, reinterpreting the apostasy law would be a bit more difficult!

I'm seeing the possibilities...

"Because the Maldives is by constitutional mandate an Islamic nation and, as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim..."

Are your eyes deliberately bypassing this statement, that ALL citizens are muslim?
You need to go back and re read the prerequisites making citizenship a religious as well as governmental issue by having to BE a MUSLIM.

Re: 59 Peace

Regarding the Muslim village in Trinidad and the quote you gave ..."He said there would be no mansions and since toilets were considered unclean places, buildings in the village will have no toilets...

LOL I love that no toilet thing - where are they going to crap, in the garden?

Re: 115 restitutor

You said you had never met a more hospitable people than the Maldive Islanders. Maybe this is why they are now all Muslims - be careful who you let into your house.

(#128) cba / (#123) Gordon

You have to be a Muslim to vote. See Sec. 134(a)

Kinda defeats the purpose of the loophole in their "citizenship" provision.

#120 David2

The only reason these entertainers even have a platform, and money, is that we give it to them. Let the power of the marketplace destroy them. It has happened before, usually because of sexual scandals (think Fatty Arbuckle, Pee Wee Herman, etc) that popular stars have become radioactive overnight. That's what needs to happen: the shows need not to be watched, the concerts not attended, the albums not bought. Hit them in the purse. Tell advertisers you will not support them if the advertise on left wing shows or in left wing papers.

#100 quoting the Dem plateform proposal: "Because our democracy thrives on public access to diverse sources of information from multiple sources, we support measures to ensure diversity, competition and localism in media ownership," the proposed platform plank states.

So they only want diversity in ownership. Apparently they are happy with keeping no diversity in the opinions and slant to the current news sources. No need to have a diversity of viewpoints on the editorial pages or amongst the reporters.

Oh Gordon - You are such a girlie poster.

American Infidel has balls!

Yours,
The Lizardnator.

Somewhat OT: I just had lunch with my cousin, a speech pathologist for the Toronto District School Board. She told me that a few months ago, the principal of her school, one of the few people she works with who aren't squarely in the el cubo camp, showed her the board's calendar for the next school year. He asked her to look it over and see if there was something a bit odd about it. She said at first she didn't know what he was talking about, so he told her to look at the school holidays had been noted on the calendar. Strangely, the holidays indicated on it were Muslim ones. No Rosh Hashanah. No Diwali. Not even a Black History day (or whatever it's called). Nope. The good dhimmis at the school board saw fit to recognize only the Islamic festivals.

Of course, the error was soon pointed out, and the calendar whisked away so a new, more inclusive version could be printed. Still, shows you where there heads are at that such an oversight could even occur.

Boy, the rights given to "citizens" in the Maldives "Constitution" are laughable. Hell, even the rights under the Constitution of the USSR were more substantial.

In the Maldives, there are no pretenses. You have lots of rights, unless they are prohibited by law.

If I were a law student at Penn taking the sharia course and I saw that "constitution", I would laugh my way to another course.

If the student is reading this:

So? What's the big deal? Just write up a mock example of the law code, illustrating exactly how insane the idea is. Focus on freedom of speech if you can.

-ron

#127

Your characterization of Prof. Vogel as a person is unkind, though not 100% inaccurate.

He is of the opinion that Islam can be reformed from within, and he believes that the work he does (many of his students are Muslims who go back to their home countries) helps towards that goal. I don't necessarily agree with his views on everything but he is not some foaming LLL policy wonk.

As for him taking money and sniping at the Saudis, I'd rather he have that money than them.

OT
1. Hizbollah-al-Sadr connection:

[Link: www.dailystar.com.lb...]

2. The dictator of Fallujah:

[Link: www.atimes.com...]

# 136 scar

Sooo, have you updated your Great White North Shari'a Escape Plan lately?
:-(

I have to love the wide definition of a "democracy".

The Islamic nation of the Maldives, have NO political Parties.

No opposing Political groups.

President Maumoon Abdul GAYOOM "reelected" in a referendum held 17 October 2003; 90.3 percent of popular vote.

Not an election really, just a referendum.

#124 SoCalJustice

Come back and tell us what one needs to be in order to cast a vote in "elections and public referendums."

But...but Gordons point was that you don't have to be a muslim to live there. Of course if your not, you can't vote, hold any office, be a judge or chief justice, etc...etc...etc...

You know,...equal.

#123 Gordon: It doesn't mean anything that the Maledivean constitution contains no all-embracing Sharia clause. What matters is that you won't find anything comparable to your First Amendment in the Maledivean constitution. Ever noticed that freedom of religion is an opt-in feature?

#126 Glen Wishard:
That was kinda my point--I'd love it to be possible but it isn't--at least, not unless there's some earthshaking change of heart from those who believe that shari'a is immutable. I'd buy shares in ice rinks in hell before I believe that will happen.

#132 SoCalJustice:
Sorry for not adding a /sarc tag after "That's fine then." Even if Gordon were right (which, as you pointed out, he's not), it's still disgusting.

OT

Weirdest picture ever from yahoo's mideast conflict slideshow:

Natasha, a 5-year-old black macaque walks at the Safari Park near Tel Aviv Tuesday July 20, 2004. The young monkey began recently walking exclusively on her hind legs after a stomach ailment nearly killed her, zookeepers said.(AP Photo/Eli Dasa)

And the accompanying wire story:

Monkey Apes Humans by Walking on Two Legs

JERUSALEM - A young monkey at an Israeli zoo has started walking on its hind legs only — aping humans — after a near death experience, the zoo's veterinarian said Wednesday.

Maybe there's something to this whole descendants of (pigs and) monkeys thing.

I'm a Harvard Law grad myself, and at least when I was there, there was a "Bin Laden fellowship." In fact, one of Bin Laden's relatives graduated my year.

(#145) cba

Whoops. My sarcasm detector must be on the fritz. Time to bring it in for a checkup.

#124 SoCalJustice: I didn't read that far. Thanks for being so observant. It doesn't mean much to be a "citizen of the Maldives" if you have to be a Muslim to vote.

It's still going to be an interesting project though. I condemn those here on LGF who automatically have condemned it. Let's wait for the results.

And, yes #122 Cam, Howard Dean will not be President. I was wrong. And I'm actually quite relieved to be wrong, even if you don't believe me...

#108 ibn Abu

Hmm... Thanks for the inside track. I see this Islamic Legal Studies department as Harvard's way to suck up for more donations from the Muslim world. And to "build bridges" to it, to bring in more Muslim students.

Every citizen shall have the freedom to express his conscience and thoughts orally or in writing or by other means, unless prohibited by law in the interest of protecting the sovereignty of the Maldives, of maintaining public order and of protecting the basic tenets of Islam.

Persons shall be free to assemble peaceably and in a manner that does not contravene the law.

Persons shall be free to form societies and associations, unless prohibited by law in the interest of the protection of sovereignty of the Maldives and the maintenance of public order.

Property of persons shall be inviolable. No person shall be deprived of his property except as provided by law or Shari’ah.

Persons shall be free to acquire knowledge and to impart knowledge provided that such acquisition and imparting of knowledge does not contravene law.

Wooo Hooo! The Maldives, paragon of democracy, fundamental rights, and the rule of law.

#148 SoCalJustice:

:-)

#129 Sasquatch: Interesting you should bring up the death penalty and Sharia. That's probably one aspect of Sharia law that LGF irregulars don't mind too much. I would be utterly shocked if a University of Pennsylvania law school class came up with ANY draft criminal law which didn't abolish the death penalty. They'll find a way to justify it with Sharia.

Gordon

The more I think about it, the more I believe that this project, if guided in the right direction, is an excellent academic attempt to see if a modern code of law, with modern enlightened conceptions of justice, can be crafted using Sharia law as the basis. I agree that if an LLL loony is running the class, it will get nowhere. But a class that refuses to compromise universal concepts of modern justice in its work will provide an interesting work product.

You are putting the cart before the horse in your mind if not in words. What you are *really* saying here is:

Can Sharia terms of justice be used on a platform of enlightened conceptions of justice. So the BASE of the law would NOT be Sharia but the Western model of justice.

This is like saying - can we find words used in Sharia and apply those words to a humane justice system. Of course we can do that because we are REDEFINING the meaning of those words.

#130 quark2: Instead of being a lazy carper, why don't you actually look at the Maldives Constitution itself. Because I provided a direct link to it in #117. I think it has SLIGHTLY more validity than a law school class prospectus.

#146: SoCalJustice

Monkey Apes Humans

Heh.

(#149) Gordon

No worries.

I'm just waiting for the U.N. to condemn the Maldives for being a racist, apartheid state. I'm sure they'll get to that right after they deal with the crisis in the Sudan.

Oh wait ...

Reuters: Sudan Militia Still Attack, UN Sanctions Unlikely

Damn.

Oh well, at least they found it in themselves to condemn Israel. Again.

The U.N. is a cancer on the planet.

#137 Solomon X: Your laughing at the Maldives Constitution's paucity of rights is quite ironic here on LGF, where many of the posters want to have a return to an Alien and Sedition Law which would make a joke of many of our first amendment rights, many posters want to ban or circumscribe Islam, making a joke of the rest of our first amendment rights, and many posters support the government's Patriot Act nonsense, making a mockery of our 4th, 5th, 6th, and 14th amendment rights.

@149 Nodrog

Thanx for your democratic and personal condemnation.
I guess I need to remind all here who are cross posting with you...that you are according to my feelings a closet islamic convert.

If there is any topic that highlights the idiotic and evil nature of Islam, you can be sure that Gordon will do his utmost to derail it.

Can there be any doubt that Gordon is a Muslim. The only reason he claims he is not, is so he can claim an unbiased viewpoint.

#112 Solomon X

Yeah, an LGF Bar Association! Finally, some dues I wouldn't mind paying.

Amen! :)

LOL I know there's more of us LegalLizards on here... what say you all?

#119 ibn Abu

Probably. I just put down "Zionist oppressor"

...

Charles could probably use a legal defense team at some point...

And here I thought that they didn't like that I stated "Militant Judaism" for that >:)

That's three of us...

#139 ibn Abu

Your characterization of Prof. Vogel as a person is unkind, though not 100% inaccurate.

As far as I can tell, my characterization is accurate, in that he purports to be a professor committed to the search for truth (and, as a law professor, presumably justice), but instead takes Saudi money and trims his message to fit what they want to hear. That is academic prostitution, however charming the fellow may be and however much you might enjoy having a sherry with him.

As for my characterization being unkind, perhaps it is. After 9/11, however, kindness towards those who are fellow travellers with radical Islam, such as Saudi Arabia, is no longer an emotion within my range.

The constitution of the Maldives limits all political offices and judgeships to Muslims. In addition:

134. A person shall be qualified to be a voter in elections and public referendums...if he, (a) is a Muslim

If you're not a Muslims you are compeltely disenfranchised; it's like being African-American and living in Mississippi @ 1910.

Gordon:

Thank you for your retraction.

I agree that if an LLL loony is running the class,

I find it unlikely that it would be a conservative-minded professor teaching the class. They are rarer then hen's teeth.

#90 Solomon X

Did you check out that picture of Linda Ronstadt on Drudge??

Damn!

Looks like the lunch lady at my old high school.

I'm not kidding.

#163

Anything about whether "she" is a Muslim?

I'm quite happy to see many in the LGF world using my link to the actual Maldivean constitution, if only to prove me wrong and stupid! Facts are always a precious thing, and they are sometimes rare on LGF (see #130 "don't confuse me with the facts" quark2).

157 socal

I'm just waiting for the U.N. to condemn the Maldives for being a racist, apartheid state. I'm sure they'll get to that right after they deal with the crisis in the Sudan.

What crisis? Is'nt Sudan a member of the UN Human Rights commission or something?

Maybe the UN will cite Maldives as a shining example of tolerance of all religious communities. I jest, but it wouldnt surprise me, if this actually happened.

I checked our the Maldives in the CIA World Factbook. There are about 339,000 people living on a 200 coral islends with a land area 1.7 times that of Washington, DC.

Here's the interesting part: 80% of the land is less than 1 meter above sea level, and the highest point of land in the whole country is 2.4 m.

Now, I don't put much stock in Global Warming, but if the sea rises 1 meter, 80% of the country is gone. 2.4 meters, and it's all gone, sharia and all.

#161 Lysander:

Yeah, an LGF Bar Association! Finally, some dues I wouldn't mind paying.

I'm no lawyer, but I sure as hell like to drink. does that qualify me?

;-)

Gordon,

I'm quite happy to see many in the LGF world using my link to the actual Maldivean constitution, if only to prove me wrong and stupid!

LOL. You have to appreciate someone who can laugh at himself.

#156 hans ze beeman
#146 SoCalJustice

the filthy monkey

it plans.

-Warren Ellis

#157: SoCalJustice

The UN is beyond disgust. Most recent clou: Sudan - SUDAN - in the Human Rights commission! What says Steyn?

'The UN system is broken beyond repair. In May, even as its proxies were getting stuck into their ethnic cleansing in Darfur, Sudan was elected to a three-year term on the UN Human Rights Commission. This isn't an aberration: Zimbabwe is also a member. The very structure of the organisation, under which countries vote in regional blocs, encourages such affronts to decency.'

The Sudanese representative, by the way, immediately professed himself concerned by human rights abuses at Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib.

This is sick.

@155 Nodrog

My lazy carping, is that some kind of exotic fish?
You must have mighty big arm and back muscles, because you're consistently moving the goal posts in any thread you hijack.
You're a closet muslim...that's all there is too it. Because I SAY so, to hell with facts and evidence. MY feelings take precedence over any damned physical evidence or facts.

Y'all all heard it here...gordo is a closet convert.

#165 Thousand Sons

#90 Solomon X

Did you check out that picture of Linda Ronstadt on Drudge??

Damn!

Looks like the lunch lady at my old high school.

I'm not kidding.

That's not a good picture, mental or otherwise!

and OT (But not LGFBar, yet):
S.F. Chronicle Editor Suspended for Kerry Donation

SAN FRANCISCO (Reuters) - A San Francisco Chronicle editor who gave Democratic presidential candidate John Kerry (news - web sites) $400 has been placed on leave for possibly violating the newspaper's rules, the newspaper said on Wednesday.

The newspaper's letters editor, William Pates, reached at home by telephone, confirmed that he had contributed about $400 to the Kerry campaign but declined to comment on his paper's response. Pates said he had worked for the Chronicle for the past 35 years.

"He's on paid leave while we are investigating. We have not made any judgment at this point as to whether the policy was violated," said editorial page editor John Diaz
"It would be a concern to have somebody who is involved in selecting letters make what amounts to a public demonstration of support for a particular candidate."

The paper, whose editorials backed Democrat Al Gore (news - web sites) in the 2000 election, bars staffers from making campaign contributions without the approval of editors. The San Francisco area is known as one of the most politically liberal in the country.

The paper learned of the contributions from a researcher at a media watchdog group "On the News" who gathered a list of political contributions by San Francisco-area journalists.

Last year the Chronicle fired a technology columnist who was arrested during an anti-Iraq (news - web sites) war protest for creating an appearance of an ethics conflict.

OK, so the editor gave a contribution that can only be approved by the editor. No wonder it's only an alleged violation - if Hell were to have a sudden snowstorm and a contribution for Bush made, it's not even worth the 1,000 quatloos to bet it'd be an actual voilation.

Lysander

all citizens are Muslim

And they accuse Israel of being apartide, racist zionists?

islam is also the religion of the kettle seething over the pot being black.

Gordon:

It's still going to be an interesting project though. I condemn those here on LGF who automatically have condemned it. Let's wait for the results.

While we're waiting for the results, then, let's take a look at the results from previous attempts to form a criminal code based on shari'a - by our staunch allies, those pillars of moderation, the Saudis:

Apostasy - Death by beheading.

Proselytizing - Death by beheading.

Atheism - Death by beheading.

Homosexuality - Death by beheading.

"Sorcery" (including use of herbal medicines) - Death by beheading.

Practicing non-Islamic religious ritual - Detention, imprisonment, and torture, often without trial.

Theft - Amputation of right hand.

Highway Robbery - Amputation of right hand and left leg.

Use of alcohol - Flogging.

Being alone in the company of an unrelated person of the opposite sex - Flogging.

Adultery (generally applies only to women) - Death by stoning.

---
I'm sure the kids at Penn can have a lot of fun with this stuff.

#172: Thousand Sons

The LLL will probably spin this story into a mortal threat to the world - deriving from an Israel zoo - because the Planet of the Apes is gonna happen dude! And it's all Israel's fault!

#157 SoCalJustice

I'm just waiting for the U.N. to condemn the Maldives for being a racist, apartheid state. I'm sure they'll get to that right after they deal with the crisis in the Sudan.

Imagine, if you will, the outrage if just two words in the course description are changed:

Because the Maldives is by constitutional mandate an Aryan nation and, as a matter of law, all citizens are White...

Actually, I take that back. The UN would probably still be all for it...

Instead of taking care of anything, the next UN resolution will condemn walking apes. And I already see the serious faces, nodding approvingly.

# 173 hans ze beeman:

This is sick.

Yep, your comment shows why the UN fits right in with the loonies and their calling for the US to listen and obey that whore. The UN is a parody of itself, and a plague on humanity (at least the giood part of humanity).

More and more, the League of Nations, circa 1934, keeps springing. The UN continues to accelerate downhill into fetid irrelevance.

#147

What year did you graduate?

When the Harvard law library was refurbished a few years back, they put a plaque with the donors' names on them... among the assorted Saudi and Jordanian princes the "Bin Laden Group" (Osama's dad's company) was listed.

I will admit, it did make me feel kind of safe when I was there.

#166 Son of a Pig and a Monkey

All gender references in the Maldive constitution are "he" or "his" or "him". Of course this is an English translation of the original Dhiveli language.

Here's another gem:

25. Every citizen shall have freedom to express his conscience and thoughts orally or in writing unless prohibited by law in the interest of...protecting the basic tenets of Islam.

And:

16(2) Every person who is charged with an offense shall have the right to defend himself in accordance with Shari'ah

This may have come before on this thread, but I just got on.

Alas, Leges sine Moribus vanae.

# 181:

Uh that should read "More and more, the League of Nations, circa 1934, keeps springing to mind."

ibn Abu

FWIW I agree with your take on professor Vogel. He probably is exporting moderation and modernity to the Middle East via his students.

Paul -

16(2) Every person who is charged with an offense shall have the right to defend himself in accordance with Shari'ah ...

Experience with shari'a in Saudi Arabia and Nigeria shows that only persons of wealth, influence and education can successfully defend themselves in a shari'a court.

The poor and uneducated generally do not even attempt to appeal their sentences, because they believe them to be the Will of Allah.

Nobody mentioned studying Jewish law. The law against eating ham. The law against working on the Sabbath. They should teach that and give poor yeshiva grads jobs. And the world would see exactly how humane (sometimes incomprehensible), detailed, and brilliant the Jewish legal system is.

And there's no killing of Moslems or Christians. If anything, the law is guilty of ignoring them.

If it's under UN auspices, does that mean that the code must conform to the Universal Declaration of Human Rights? Or will the Islamic version be followed? Some see harmony between the two. Others disagree.

No one here need worry that the school is an LLL training ground - better than 90% of the students want nothing more than high-paying jobs with corporate law firms in NY. There is a tiny contingent of "activist" students who are ignored. The class being discussed here is a seminar that will have 6 or 7 students, a number of who will be foriegn students in the US for one year to qualify to take the NY bar exam. Meanwhile classes in Securities Law and Commercial Credit have over 150 students each. For reference, here is a link to the Penn Law Review, a student run publication. It's quite conservative.

[Link: www.law.upenn.edu...]

#177 Glen Wishard: I think even you would admit that a criminal code based upon Sharia drafted by a University of Pennsylvania law school class will be quite different from the criminal code developed by Ibn Saud and his favorite clerics.

You are pre-judging the outcome of this exercise. Typical LGFlogic, not much different from LLLogic.

This is terribly offensive on MANY levels.

First of all, if the people of the Maldives can't write their own laws, then maybe they don't need to be their own country. I mean, how hard could it be to review the laws of Iran, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait, et al., and then come up with your own criminal code?

Second: What is the purpose of Western students learning to write criminal code based on Shari'a?

Third: I was under the assumption that one of the main hallmarks of Western civilization has been the removal of religion from the rules and laws of Western governments. Why in the world would we want to teach our future leaders how to include religion in our laws?

Well...well...well...NOW. What a diff..being a member of an ALPHA Group (Islam)and being a member of a real MINORITY Group. (Judiasm) in America.

So now..we are including SHARIA in Colleges and Law Schools? Giving it that much RESPECT and Attention? And what about Jewish Religious Law? Given ANY EQUAL amount of attention and respect and STUDY all these years? I dont think so. Not for the Mainstream people in our Country.

And we, as Jews, dont have a problem--- even here now and developing for the future? Oh boy..do we have a problem...

Lets see whats been happening right here in the good ole US of A Currently..that is RIGHT NOW...ALREADY... First---5 times a day call to Islamic prayer TO BE insituted whenever and wherever full or modified, thier kids get to have separate ACTIVE prayer rooms in PUBLIC SCHOOLS, they WILL be wearing their outfits wether we like it or NOT, (lots MORE intrusive than kippas on the heads of boys and scarves on the heads of little girls) and now their separate LAW is being given extra attention...(this is someone elses RELIGIOUS LAW in AMERICA that will SEEP IN slowly but surely)...When do you all think they will insist that ARABIC be used or taught? Think that may be coming? I did forget to mention that ALREADY we have PUBLIC SCHOOL materials presenting Islam and the Arab Culture in a PHONY ULTRA POSITIVE light. Isnt that just a charming development?

And many hate JEWS? for being different? Guess it is safe to hate only SMALL "different" groups...its another story altogether when your "Different" Group is larger than you are and can and WILL ***clean your clock should they feel they are dissed by you.

Size matters..Therefore, its up to us, OUR COMMUNITY, to know what we can expect-to extrapolate out what we think the atmosphere for us will be down the line. Our Children are going to be affected disporportionately by all of this. (sooner or later Jews WILL be targeted by Islamists and their friends in America) Their outlook in these Western Countrys will change. It will be different for them..How different..? We will have to see.. and then take appropriate action.

Am I "early" on talking about what I think is coming..???Yes.. but will what I think will happen-- actually happen? YES it will... Will this creep to apease Islam in America happen ..and happen on the backs of Jews** FIRST (You are next after us ya know) BET ON IT. Trash Jews to make Arabs feel all good about themselves and their place in America and after that...trash whoever stands in their way. Thats the way it is GOING TO GO..Look at Europe for the "Template".

Sorry if this has already been posted, but

Saudis find Paul Johnson's head in a refrigerator in Riyadh.

Meanwhile, at the Saudi Embassy...

LGF shows the world to be a freakshow today. The truth sucks. Did the wheels fall off the world while I wasn't looking?

Well...Go Lance!

Shit.

Because the Maldives is by constitutional mandate an Islamic nation and, as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim, the code will be the world’s first criminal code of modern format that is based upon the principles of Shari’a.

". . . as a matter of law, all citizens are Muslim . . ."

What possibly could one learn from writing a criminal code for a fascist society?

After these law students serve as careful scriveners for their Islamist clients, clearly setting out the proper application of execution, maimings and dismemberment for the appropriate offenses, you know what they are going to do?

They are going to come back here and villfy our evil nation for having a death penalty. Then they will protest that US prisoners don't have 80 channel cable access, a cruel and unusual punishment.

Well--P... I dont know what else to say about..IN THE REFRIGERATOR...E Gad. Isnt that just ever SO ..Charming? Sheesh.

Heres a good place to START if you wanted to know when the world "changed". Its when the Pals..killed all those innocent Jewish Athletes at the Olympics..and there was STILL going to be a Palistinian State. Seemed that it became OK..to do that ...Didnt pay any kind of real price. Palistine STILL a viable idea. Thats a good place to begin.

There are other places..but the Olympic Terrorist Attack--- a very good "signpost".

Gordon:

I think even you would admit that a criminal code based upon Sharia drafted by a University of Pennsylvania law school class will be quite different from the criminal code developed by Ibn Saud and his favorite clerics.

Oh, I'm sure it will be different, all right. For one thing, it will have no cap on damages awarded in civil suits.

Do you even know what shari'a is? Shari'a is "justice" based on Koranic law, along with whatever hadiths and traditions the governing clerics recognize as Islamic law. In all previous incarnations of shari'a, that "justice" includes specific punishments named in the Koran and in hadiths.

Shari'a is theocracy, pure and simple. Let's assume that they tone down all the punishments. Do you have a problem with punishing homosexuality, and punishing women for adultery, so long as the punishment isn't death?

It never ceases to amaze me that liberals, who scream their capacious lungs out if they see a menorah or a nativity scene, have no problem at all with Islamic theocracy so long as it produces anti-American rhetoric.

Gordon - Shariah penalties include death by stoning for adultery and cutting off hands and feet for theft. A Muslim who renounces Islam would be guilty of apostasy, which under the bill is punishable by death and confiscation of the offender's property.

Shariah law is basically the legalization of crimes against humanity - and of course the UN supports it.

What can these students learn from these fascist laws? Well, since the Saudis contribute large sums of money to Ivy League institutions like U. Penn, they’re learning that our legal and our educational institutions can be bought by fascists whose morality exists at a parasitic, viral level. That information may be useful to them later on in their careers.

Meanwhile the apologists, enablers, and moonbats opine at CNN.com about Shariah:

Experts: B-h3adings pervert legitimate law

The money quote:

"You can come up with a Shariah justification for it," he said, "but you can come up with a Shariah justification for
a lot of things."

No kidding?

Here's an interesting snippet of a debate between Daniel Pipes and a reformist Islamist (yes, LGF, there are apparently at least a few of them) on Sharia law:

[Link: www.pbs.org...]

Even Pipes admits that Sharia is OK if its practicioners can "transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today." Understood by the sick societies that have tried to implement it literally - and wrongly.

Let's see if the Penn students can come up with something that "transmutes" Sharia law for the Maldives. It's too bad that the LGF irregulars have such a closed mind on this topic. I bet Daniel Pipes doesn't.

#195 Kevin Shook: Don't be so lazy. Go look at the actual constitution of the Maldives, linked in #117, instead of relying on an email blurb from some bureaucrat at Penn.

I don't know why I clicked the CNN shortcut

"The terrorists have said ... the movement of al Qaeda represents the true Islamic state... and [they] claim the right to kill prisoners of war," said Haykel, the author of several books on Islam.

"That is consistent with Islamic law if one recognizes al Qaeda as the properly constituted head of the Islamic state," Haykel said. "It is a legitimate practice in Islamic law to behead your enemy if the ruler so deems it as a punishment that is required."

Doran concurred that the militants may be looking to Shariah to justify the brutality of the deaths.

"You can come up with a Shariah justification for it," he said, "but you can come up with a Shariah justification for a lot of things."

In sum, sharia sucks.

#200 Thousand Suns

You burned me. Ouch!

#204 Beagle

You burned me. Ouch!

Ha ha!

I'm the Arthur Brown of the new millennium and I bring you:

Fire! I'll take you to burn!

#201 Gordon

They'd better. Let's watch over their shoulders and make sure they don't rely the Hanbali school (of which Wahhabism is an offshoot) or some other overly literal interpretation. Professor Robinson may not be as myopic as a certain religious studies professor from Haverford College, but one should still be wary.

I am well aware that if parts of the Old Testament were interpreted literally, the results would be every bit as nasty as some aspects of Islamism. In any case, it would be wiser for a legal scholar to rely on general religious principles that can take into account changes since the seventh century. Let's face it, Mohammed didn't live around automobiles, radio, airplanes, and the internet and the Quran makes no explicit mention of those technological innovations.

I mean, how would Islamic law deal with drunk driving...? ;-)

Gordon, you ignorant slut:

Even Pipes admits that Sharia is OK if its practicioners can "transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today."

For those who are uncomfortable relying on Gordon's reading comprehension skills, here is what Pipes said:

No: the Sharia harks back to a decidedly antidemocratic sensibility in everything from its emphasis on God's will (not popular sovereignty) to its privileging of Muslims over non-Muslims. For Muslims to develop functioning democracies requires that they put aside the Sharia or transmute it into something quite different from what it is understood to be today.

Here is the "rebuttal" from Dr. Muqtedar Khan, one of those reformers that Gordon gets so excited about:

Sharia is the essence of Islam. The Sharia is decidedly democratic. The reason for Islam's great record of tolerance and pluralism in the past is the correct understanding and application of the Sharia.

Doesn't sound like Dr. Khan, who lives in an imaginary universe where Islam has "a great record of tlerance and pluralism" [!!!] is interested in transmuting shari'a.

#207 Glen Wishard, o condescending one, until the late 18th century Islam in fact had a better record of tolerance and pluralism than the West. Why do you think Sephardic Jews, when expelled from Spain in 1492, went to the Islamic world instead of, say Great Britain. Perhaps because Great Britain officially banned all Jews from the Kingdom.

Of course neither medieval Christianity or medieval Islam would stand up to today's standards of justice. But medieval Christian nations developed legal systems today based upon the same kind of religiously-based legal nonsense that strict interpretations of Sharia like that practiced by the Taliban produced.

The Penn students are trying to change that. I say good luck to them - it's a project which, if it modernizes Sharia law for today's times, can bring a huge amount of good to the world.

But you don't want that, do you? You want thermonuclear blasts over Mecca instead? Just curious...

Gordon:
Sigh. You really think that Islam is a legitimate culture to be respected and understood?

Gordon – shariah also allows slavery. I’m curious about how that can be ‘modernized’?

Should we follow the Saudi system of reclassifying slaves as ‘maids’, or should we follow the more open and honest system used by the modern Sudanese?

What good has Shariah ever brought to the modern world?

Gordon:

Why do you think Sephardic Jews, when expelled from Spain in 1492, went to the Islamic world instead of, say Great Britain.

Sephardic Jews settled all over Europe after their expulsion from Spain. Others were absorbed by existing Jewish communities in North Africa and the Middle East.

In particular, the sultan of the Turks gave refuge to the Sephardim, but because they were regarded as economic assets, many Jews who landed in Turkey were forbidden to leave again. But they were not subjected to shari'a law.

But medieval Christian nations developed legal systems today based upon the same kind of religiously-based legal nonsense that strict interpretations of Sharia like that practiced by the Taliban produced.

You really don't get it, do you? The "religious nonsense" of Christian nations (if that's what you want to give the credit to) produced enlightenment, science, democracy, humanism, separation of church and state, secular rule of law, equality under the law, etc. etc. etc.

Shari'a, on the other hand, has given us the wonderful Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the Sudan, northern Nigeria, the Taliban, and Osama bin Laden.

How much more "tolerance and pluralism" can we take?

#22 Gordon -

And then all those thought patterns so prevalent among the Islamohaters on this site would have to be flushed down the toilet.

I would have responded earlier, but some Mullah pushed a wall over on me, and I couldn't reach the keyboard.

#212 Baldy:
I'd laugh my head off but then Gordon would think I was implying that Islam is something other than tolerant and peaceful.

#213 cba - Most of my friends are gay and liberal. They still think that Christians and Jews are more a threat to us than Crazy Muslims. They wonder why I am supporting Bush, the "evil theocrat." It is insane what the left thinks.

Hey all,

I'm the Penn law student who forwarded the email to Charles. I blew a gasket when I saw the course listing this morning, but I stand by what I wrote, although if I had it to do over again I would leave the ALL CAPS alone 'cause that generally isn't my style. (I'd actually forwarded the email to my wife, who forwarded it to Charles, but no harm done...)

Anyway. The Penn faculty (not the law school or the university itself, which raises some interesting standing issues for the lawyers reading this) filed suit to keep (U.S.) military recruiters out of On Campus Recruiting because the "don't ask don't tell" policy discriminates against homosexuals, and thus conflicts with the law school's anti-discrimination policy. But yet we're offered a course in which we can draft a criminal code which mandates (among other horrible things) that homosexuals be summarily executed. See, e.g., Cognitive Dissonance v. Logic (holding that if it looks like bullshit and smells like bullshit, there is an allowable inference that it is bullshit)

And Gordon, I didn't say that Sharia (I have no time for apostrophes) is Nazi law, I merely made an analogy. Which I think is apt--the US, and Western Civilization broadly, is in conflict with (at least a very active, vocal, and dangerous segment of) the Islamic world. I'm sure there were goodhearted Germans back in the day. And if I'd ever seen Schindler's List maybe I'd be able to support this assertion.

So What d'yall think? Should I take the class? I'll defend American values to anyone, but is it worth spending a semester torturing myself just to keep tabs on what quantum of evidence is necessary to meet the legal threshold of some variety of thought crime? Law school is demanding (soul-sucking) enough without it. (And besides, I think the class conflicts with Corporations.)

Oh, and here's the link to Prof. Robinson's bio and curriculum vitae: [Link: www.law.upenn.edu...]

Keep fighting the good fight.

Gordon: What kind of NONSENSE are you trying to feed yourself and everyone else? Spain..Christianity..Islam and the Expulsion of Jews. Ahhh..Jews had to go SOMEWHERE and cause THEY were the ones that did the work in Spain that Islam took credit FOR,..the Countries of Islam decided to let us IN..and USE US and our talents to enhance THEIR Countries. The word for the relationship was USE...not Shelter. USE in many ways..thats all.

We were to DO the work they wanted and needed, when they wanted and how they wanted...We were to be Dhimini and ANYTIME Islam waned to vent violently against us ...they DID. Stop with your "Disney-Like-- All Nice Jews ENJOY living in Turkey or Iraq etc." Not letting you get away with THAT. (Were we and are we smart enough to appreciate ONE or FOUR aspects of a culture that are beautiful and valuable..YES...thats about the EXTENT of the appreciation of Islam that we had) We lived in our OWN Communities and that was the only reason we COULD live in these lands. ALL disconnected from THEM.

Gordon: All these OLD BOOKS...were written for OLD TIMES..where rules were different, first cause people hardly knew better and second cause the rules fitted the times and the areas and state of life then. Christianity and Judiasm kept the kernels of their old books..but somehow were able to MOVE WITH THE TIMES.

Islam isnt doing this modernization..and doesnt really intend to. There will be some PHONY...THERES A NEW ISLAM IN TOWN.. brought to you by the good Moslems of the USA...ALL .to satisfy critics but there will NOT be much of a sea change REALLY. Just enuf change to cover their asses and gain SOME type of acceptance in America.

Why does anybody bother responding to Gordon? He is incapable of absorbing information.

billypenn2006:
Good for you and your wife.

Whether you take it or not, please keep us updated with whatever you hear about it.

OFF TOPIC: HERE..right now..this minute...Manchurian Candidate on WETA in DC..The ORIGIONAL. I love it to death. It more fabulous than almost any movie. (you all know when I love something ...I go over the top...never mind. ...SEE IT if it is on YOUR PBS now) Frank (he WAS the best) and Lawrence Harvey. Ohmagawd its a good movie.

...

Billy: Is this an effort to white wash and make ISLAM acceptable for Americans? So here it is: The NEW ISLAM brought to you..(like I said) by the nice people of America. (A RELIGIOUS MAKEOVER..so to speak) Therefore you can accept Islam now..cause its been AMERICANIZED..Sort of like..but not exactly like Reform Judiasm...See?

Its being done up there using this ONE reason...New Sharia for M. but the other Adjenda, A Made Over American Islam--might be really what this is all about...DOUBLE BETCHA.

America is going to be determined to make Islam Acceptable here..This is one of the first shots..My Opinion...There will be MORE of these "actions"..watch and see...

When the basic premis of the law is that the law must as a fundamental purpose be 'government of the people, by the people and for the people', to what point does the law, however benovelent the law is, represent the express will of the people if it cannot be modified by the people?

HWSNBN, by cluttering up this thread, owns everyone an explanation as to whether the law belongs to the lawyers, jurists and theologians or the people.

What purpose has democracy if all the people do is elect those whose sole purpose is to administer the immutable divine law?

Gordon

I read the Maldives constitution (thanks for the link) and I don't think that any amount of Penn St. law student brainstorming can produce significant changes.

Per their constitution: 1) Islam is the official religion, there is no mention of any other, 2) all elective, appointed and judicial positions are limited to Muslims,
3) only Muslims can vote, 4) freedom of expression is allowed to the extent it does not contradict "the basic tenets of Islam, 5) all persons accused of crimes wil be tried in accordance with shari'ah law.
Citizenship is apparently not limited to Muslims but, under the constitution, a non-Muslim citizen is obviously a second class citizen who cannot hold office or vote, cannot criticize Islamic law but is nevertheless subject to that law.

The best thing for these students would be an attempt at re-writing an oppressive constitution.

Billypenn,

Take the course, keep us posted.

billypenn2006 -

If I were in your place, I'd take the class. And I'd insist on a criminal code that makes no reference to any religion, and no reference to any sexual or social practices - their "constitution" be fucked.

And of course, I'd report regularly to LGF on the progress of this noble endeavor.

I mean, how would Islamic law deal with drunk driving...? ;-)

Well, duh, drunk driving involves alcohol, so whatever the Islamic law says about alcohol should cover it...

...how many lashing, I wonder?

cheshirecat

#219 vickie

Amen to the original Manchurian Candidate…I'm still amazed by Angela Lansbury’s performance.

SD

#222 Postscript -

Oh, and I forgot to add - if a professor or a student interfered with my efforts to civilize the Maldives, I'd picket the class and accuse the law school (what the hell, the whole university) of being racist, sexist, homophobic bigots.

Sun: THe Movie just finished. Damn...if Old Blue Eyes didnt GET to ME. WOW..what a performance. Just looking into his eyes in some of the scenes--he knocked me out tonight. Its a bit dated..but let me tell you...they are gonna have to go a long way to reach the impact of this movie. Everyone was incredible in it. Angela Lansbery says it is one of her best performances..G-d it sure WAS. AHHH..SHE just got me as well. Its as GOOD as I remember it was.

Lawrence Harvey..Well...he was a stunning man..a damn good actor...and did some interesting movies for the time... I loved the punim on him.. Died too young.."Room At the Top"...Wonder how it would play today? (probably seem silly today) It was SOME big deal when it came out. It was really a big deal...

ye gods and little fishes
The Maldives one of the most beautiful holiday destinations in the world and the best dive sites, its main income from tourism.
So now you will have to cover up and wear a burkha when sightseeing and also dive in one too or you may be x amputated and the the pieces fed to the fish.
Alla hu akba!!!

The decisive step out of medieval Christianity into modern democracy was the understanding that religious revelations are adressed to the individual not to the state. Only then we learnt that the function of the failsafe state is not to hardcode timeless revelations but to compile temporal man-made laws from the inputs it receives from the individuals. The barbarian shortcut between religions and states that up to then was seen as a law of nature was removed by switching the individuals in between.

Can such a project transfer that realization from the West into Islam, as the clueless idealist might assume? This would require the abolition of theocracy which would however be in contradiction to the ideological premises of this project whose purpose is to preserve theocracy and not to argue why that institution is incompatible with the human right. So the most likely outcome will be a dim outline of concepts which will seem susceptible of liberal interpretation until the specific program of practical terms is added - like any typical United Nations document.

Prerequisite: It is desirable but not mandatory that a student has taken or is taking Advanced Criminal Law.

Does that mean advanced criminals can apply too?

I have a better idea - use the Maldives as a test site for a 50 Megatonner.

Ok, ok...I will strongly consider taking the class. It might be a nice foil to The Law of Counterterrorist Operations, which I all also plan to take.

And if I get into the class (I haven't taken Advanced Criminal Law), I will endeavor to keep LGF posted.

No promises...

#209 Ann: Yes

#216 Vickie: Like many other Jewish posters to this site, you refuse to look in a mirror and see all of the old nasty and untrue things Western Christians used to say about Jews mirrored in your own prejudiced attitudes towards Islam. Those who do not learn from history are condemned to repeat it.

As for the movement of the Sephardic Jewish community from Spain to the Islamic world, my point was they certainly did not move to the enlightened Kingdom of Great Britain, since Jews were officially outlawed in the Kingdom from 1290 to 1655.

[Link: www.jewishmuseum.org.uk...]

Of course if they remained in Spain they were required to convert to Christianity, or else subject to the mercies of the inquisition.

They were apparently not allowed into France, where the only ones allowed in were Marranos, who hid their identity.

[Link: www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org...]

Your Islamohatred causes you even to rewrite history, to conform to your blinkered and prejudiced view of the world.

#217 Zulubaby: Thanks for chiming in to accentuate my point - you are the poster child for Jews on LGF who bring the same lack of perception to their views of Islam that anti-semites throughout history have brought to their view of Jews.

#219 Vickie: The alternative to making Islam "acceptable" and "modern" is to eradicate it from the Earth. Since there are over one billion adherents of Islam throughout the world, I presume that a good percentage of them will have to die to accomplish this aim.

So do you want to try and reform Islam? Or do you just want to nuke Mecca and get it over with?

Gordon, how's about you shaddup already?

#231 BillyPenn: If I were you, I would take Corporations.

#236 Zulubaby: I see you haven't picked up that mirror yet. Maybe you're a lost cause...

Jews on LGF who bring the same lack of perception to their views of Islam

Okay dhimmi boy, whatever you say.

ploome 240

gordodreck

we start with eliminating YOU

CHARLES PULEEEZEZZZ

Absolutely - ban Gordon. Mustn't hear anyone who doesn't agree with us...

#241 ben-ami: Ploome's mantra is:

Muslims bad, four legs good.

# 209 Ann's question to Gordie:

Sigh. You really think that Islam is a legitimate culture to be respected and understood?

# 232, Gordie's reply to Ann:

Yes

I think that just about closes the book on this chapter of "Life in LGF Land." Yep, Islam is a culture to be respected and understood. Murder, mayhem, rape, terror, genocide, shari'a, misogyny, beheadings, using children as suicide bombers, encouraging suicide/homicide bombings in general, slavery, killing Infidels and/or Jews to get 72 virgins in the afterlife, and a desire for Islamic world domination. Yep, just minor details in Islamic "culture" happening in the
21st Century that we should all respect and understand. We're not talking the 20th, or even the 8th Century here. No, these aspects of Islamic "culture" exist right now, even as I type. Gordie is the Fifth Columnist we all rant on about, having accepted his dhimmi fate, all the while encouragiong the rest of us to do the same. So I state, quite sincerely: Screw you, Gordie, and the friggin' camel you rode in on.

#243 RickZ: It's official; this site is infested by raving loons. You just tipped the scales.

Maybe I am wasting my time here. So many stupid people, so little understanding of the truth.

RickZ 243

# 209 Ann's question to Gordie:

Sigh. You really think that Islam is a legitimate culture to be respected and understood?

# 232, Gordie's reply to Ann:

Yes

I think that just about closes the book on this chapter of "Life in LGF Land." Yep, Islam is a culture to be respected and understood. Murder, mayhem, rape, terror, genocide, shari'a, misogyny, beheadings, using children as suicide bombers, encouraging suicide/homicide bombings in general, slavery, killing Infidels and/or Jews to get 72 virgins in the afterlife, and a desire for Islamic world domination. Yep, just minor details in Islamic "culture" happening in the
21st Century that we should all respect and understand. We're not talking the 20th, or even the 8th Century here. No, these aspects of Islamic "culture" exist right now, even as I type. Gordie is the Fifth Columnist we all rant on about, having accepted his dhimmi fate, all the while encouragiong the rest of us to do the same.

That's it? That's your proof that Gordon is a Fifth Columnist - because he doesn't think that the things that you list represent Islam as a whole, or that it's evil? Funny - Daniel Pipes also says The Evil isn't Islam. Does that make him a Fifth Columnist or a dupe of the Islamists?

#245 ben-ami: Thank you for continuing the argument - I've just about had it with the raving Islamophobic loons infesting this site, as you could probably tell by #243.

Keep on fighting the good fight. I may be back, but for now I'm just sick of the whole bunch.

Bennie:

because he doesn't think that the things that you list represent Islam as a whole

There's something else to Islam I missed? Enlighten me, oh wise one, as to that part of modern Islamic
"culture" that is so damned good/important that you want to see it accepted worldwide.

Yes, Gordon, please go - as soon as you leave, LGF can get back to its real business...

A: I sure hate Muslims.
B: Me, too. Muslims are scum.
C: Well, I hate Muslims more!
B: No you don't. I do! I think we should nuke Mecca.
D. NUKE EUROPE AND NEW ZEALAND THEY'RE ALL A BUNCH OF JEW-HATING MARXO-NAZIS.
A: Man, I sure hate Muslim

*sigh*

RickZ

There's something else to Islam I missed? Enlighten me, oh wise one, as to that part of modern Islamic
"culture" that is so damned good/important that you want to see it accepted worldwide.

That's not what I said. That's not what Gordon said. And it isn't what Daniel Pipes said. If you're really interested in what Mr. Pipes has to say, click on the link.

Bennie, your answer "to that part of modern Islamic 'culture' that is so damned good/important that you want to see it accepted worldwide" is?

ben-ami, with all due respect, I have my reasons for disliking Gordon that have nothing to do with hating Muslims, and if we're so simple-minded, what is a sophisticated individual such as yourself doing hanging around here?

zulubaby

if we're so simple-minded

OK, so I overstated my case and engaged in caricature. Sorry.

Sometimes LGF can be a place to learn interesting and useful things; a great deal of the time, though, it degenerates into a kind of mutual agreement club, incapable of dealing with any but the mildest dissent and all too quick to resort to insult and shouting-down. And when someone can't be shouted down, the listowner is appealed to to ban him. This is really weak shit, you should pardon my language. If this sort of behavior is representative of American thought in the face of crisis, we're all in trouble.

Bennie, I am asking you what YOU think is within Islamic culture that should be understood and accepted world-wide. I'm not asking what Pipes thinks, what Mohammed thinks, what Christ among the choir of angels thinks. I want to know what you think.

253 ploome

what can we lern from this enlightened ROP, and cultures Islam shapes?

Who said anything about it being enlightened, or that we need to learn from it? The question that RickZ used to damn Gordon was "You really think that Islam is a legitimate culture to be respected and understood? "

I imagine that "legitmate culture" is right out, because of the LGF part line that it is an "ideology of world domination. Respected? If you mean that people have as much of a right to practice Islam as any other culture, as long as they don't break the law, sure. And "understood"? Do you really want to try to make a case that its better not to understand something - that ignorance is really bliss?

254 Rick

Bennie, I am asking you what YOU think is within Islamic culture that should be understood and accepted world-wide. I'm not asking what Pipes thinks, what Mohammed thinks, what Christ among the choir of angels thinks. I want to know what you think.

And Rickie (you don't mind if I call you Rickie, do you? Thanks) I am asking you where YOU came up with the idea that I said that Islamic culture needs to be "accepted world-wide."

B-A, it's a question! I'm asking what is it within Islam that YOU defend, that is somehow worth saving.

RickZ

B-A, it's a question! I'm asking what is it within Islam that YOU defend, that is somehow worth saving.

I don't defend Islam - I defend Muslims' right to practice their own religion, the same as anyone else. This doesn't require me to like the religion, find it admirable, or want to convert. I also support the rights of Buddhists, Hindus, Jains, and a whole slew of other people to worship as they see fit, without thinking that they're all swell religions and offer something for everyone. Can you really not see a difference?

#258
But you presuppose that the people to whom you extend your admirable toleration extend it back to you.
What in statements by the Muslim elite lead you to believe that the toleration is reciprocated?
The majority of Muslims may just want to practice their religion in peace but are either unwilling or unable to combat the salafists.

Ben,

Do "Buddhists, Hindus, Jains [whatever they are?], and a whole slew of other people to worship as they see fit, without thinking that they're all swell religions and offer something for everyone" try to take over the world? Do they want to inflict bodily harm on those not of their religion? Do they claim that those not of their religion should die, just because they are not of their religion?

Can you really not see a difference?

No, honestly, I cannot. Islam has had 1400 years to evolve, to transform, to change. It has not done so, in fact, it has probably stood still, if not retrograded. All of my examples to Gordon, above, are a part of Islam today, not something dredged up from yesteryear. That list is progress? That list is supposed to comfort me, let me know that postitive change is coming from within the many failed societies that Islam rules?

To be blunt, I could have given two sh*ts about Islam prior to 2001. I had that "live and let live" attititude, just as you seem to have now. Islam does not carry such a Western luxury within its theocratic or political beliefs. When it comes down to me or Islam, I choose me every time. Yes, I do know its culture, its fear of the modern world encroaching on its 1400 year old beliefs and threatening them, just as anyone should know their enemies.

Respected? If you mean that people have as much of a right to practice Islam as any other culture, as long as they don't break the law, sure. And "understood"? Do you really want to try to make a case that its better not to understand something - that ignorance is really bliss?

Islam's tenets do not co-exist outside of Islamic countries; that is a major flaw in your statement. Are they Muslim, or are they American? Does one take precedence over the other? If so, which one? When did the US ever have to consider worrying about Buddhists or Hindus breaking the law, trying to blow something up aznd killing hundreds or thousands of people?

Islam brings its baggage when it emigrates; in the West there are now honor killings (happened in Canada), arranged child marriages, women not allowed to leave the house without a male family member (and I'm talking Queens on this one). What do we do when a whole segment of society practices a "religion" and has a "culture" that is anathema to that in which we live, that actively seeks to subvert and rip apart that established culture and replace it with its own? Camps, prison, or deportation? If deportation, how long of a fix is that? I'm not talking about platitudes, "Islam is a religion of peace" crap. I'm looking for something, anything, I can hang my hat on that Islam is something that doesn't need to be eradicated, that the mythical "moderates/reformers," who have, up to now, not stood up and condemned the excesses within the Islamic culture, can somehow overcome 1400 years of inertia and actually do something besides bitch, moan, and complain when Islam is criticized. How much longer should one have to wait? One year, 10 years, or 1400 more years? We had to take out Nazism, Japanese emperor-worshipping imperialism, and communism, all within the last 60 years. Does this -ism stand next in line?

ibn Abu

But you presuppose that the people to whom you extend your admirable toleration extend it back to you.
What in statements by the Muslim elite lead you to believe that the toleration is reciprocated?

This seems like a good start. But even intolerance - absent hostile actions - wouldn't be a reason for me to be intolerant. Here in United States, for example, there are all sorts of groups, religious and ideological, that present an intolerant face to the surrounding society. And as long as they obey the law, it's their right to do so. (And, I add, it's society's right to keep tabs on them to make sure that they are obeying the law).

The majority of Muslims may just want to practice their religion in peace but are either unwilling or unable to combat the salafists.

No, not everywhere, but in some places they're trying. And I thought that that was one of the reasons we were in Iraq - to lay the foundation for the "new Middle East." Without encouraging an Islam that can get along in a modern, democratic society that's simply not going to happen. Stamping out Islam is not the answer.

RickZ 260

Do "Buddhists, Hindus, Jains [whatever they are?], and a whole slew of other people to worship as they see fit, without thinking that they're all swell religions and offer something for everyone" try to take over the world? Do they want to inflict bodily harm on those not of their religion? Do they claim that those not of their religion should die, just because they are not of their religion?

Well, some do. Been keeping up with religious violence in India, for example? It's not all Muslim on Hindu.

But the better answer is that I don't believe that ordinary Muslims want those things, either. I agree with with people like the President and Daniel Pipes (did you read the article I linked to) that the jihadis are a minority, although a dangerous one.

Are they Muslim, or are they American?

Which is more important to the fervent Christian - his faith, or his citizenship? Do Jews have divided loyalties between the US and Israel? (Or as they asked about Kennedy, "What will a Catholic president obey, the Constitution or the Pope?")

Islam brings its baggage when it emigrates; in the West there are now honor killings (happened in Canada), arranged child marriages, women not allowed to leave the house without a male family member (and I'm talking Queens on this one). What do we do when a whole segment of society practices a "religion" and has a "culture" that is anathema to that in which we live, that actively seeks to subvert and rip apart that established culture and replace it with its own? Camps, prison, or deportation? If deportation, how long of a fix is that? I'm not talking about platitudes, "Islam is a religion of peace" crap.

Neither am I.

I think that we have to help moderate Muslims in the US by weeding out the jihadis, to give the moderates breathing room. That means keeping track of the mosques and what's taught in them, and shutting down the bad ones. That means treating jihadism - not Islam - the way that we treated our homegrown Nazis in WWII. And the only way that we can do any of this is by understanding Islam. I honestly think that Daniel Pipes is our model for that.

If we fall back on the "All Islam is evil and must be eradicated" position (see almost any thread on LGF for an example) then we guarantee nothing rises to challenge the salafis on their home territory. We guarantee the most awful war we've ever seen. What I'm afraid of is that there are people supposedly on our side who want just that - who want to pay back the whole Muslim world collectively for 9/11 and all the terrorism that preceded (and followed it).

There is hardly cultural supremacy involved here, as mainstream Islamic scholars themselves say in their fatwas that their religion suffers a serious problem it cannot solve alone: "It is most important to first be a Muslim and then to be a good person." I think the decisive question here is not 'Where are the Fifty Righteous in Islam?' but what thing in that culture is it that has produced the death cult?

Its own demographic weapon has brought Islam into a generation conflict that in democracies never would have reached the mismatch it has. Since the Islamic revolution the Islamic elite has grown old while the average Muslim has become increasingly younger. They used religion to contain that conflict such as they always used the holy as a means to compensate their lack of political legitimacy. They set up the holy death cult to regain control of their youth whose information-society life is completely different from their own. But what was thought to remain a purposeful instrument slipped out of their control and became a self-reliant force in that religion.

In America, church and state were never married but Europe experienced not only secular totalitarianisms. Our Christian theocracy collapsed in the Thirty Years War after the technologies of bookprint and the leaflet had created Protestantism and religion itself became a battlefield. This collapse was so bad that many fled into what then was a bunch of colonies on the other side of the Atlantic. In this century, the Islamic theocracy got hit by the full impact of satellite TV and the internet, and another Thirty Years War of terrorism hardly can be seen as an option.

Theocracy is not intrinsic to a certain culture, it is just an evil institution that denies the freedom of choice, and that is to be abolished in every culture, the same as slavery only more Orwellian. Today we identify this institution in Islam, but one day we hope to see that religion without it. The only alternative to containment and all-out war seems to be that the separation of mosque and state is imposed upon Islam. This is not a matter of choice but a matter of time - in any reasonable security philosophy a nuclear theocracy is a contradiction in terms. The Maldives as a test case of UN choice might not have a WMD program, but they are on a planet that is in nuclear age.

ben-ami (#252)

Sometimes LGF can be a place to learn interesting and useful things; a great deal of the time, though, it degenerates into a kind of mutual agreement club, incapable of dealing with any but the mildest dissent and all too quick to resort to insult and shouting-down.

That's the way it goes. Most LGFers are bright and funny and have fierce opinions on everything. It gets rough in here at times but at least it's lively and, for the most part, honest.

Some of us are sick of hearing excuses for the death cult that is Islam and have no use for bozos like Gordon. I don't understand how he can spend so much time here and still remain so utterly ignorant. I won't be patronized or dhimmified by either one of you.

ben-Ami

The divided loyalties Catholics=Jews=Muslims fails because the Muslim system is as much a political system as a religious one.

There is no "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to G-d what is G-d's in the Koran.

#244 Gordon

So many stupid people, so little understanding of the truth.

Gordon, sorry to burst your self-righteous bubble, but when you think you know "the truth" that is as stupid as you can get.

264 Iron Fist

When Muslims murdered 3000 of my fellow citizens because they were Americans, they attacked me personally. When other Muslims publicly and privately celebrated it, that made them my enemy as well.

And when Muslim families who lost innocent family members in the attack mourned alongside us, and when other Muslims condemned the attacks, did that make them your enemy as well?

zulubaby 265

Some of us are sick of hearing excuses for the death cult that is Islam and have no use for bozos like Gordon. I don't understand how he can spend so much time here and still remain so utterly ignorant.

It sounds like your main problem seems to be that Gordon wouldn't change his views. That's your prerogative. But why try to shout him down or get him banned? Why resort to petty insults? Why not just scroll past him - after all, no one's making you read his posts.

Ed Moran 266

The divided loyalties Catholics=Jews=Muslims fails because the Muslim system is as much a political system as a religious one.

So, under the right circumstances, is ever other religious system. Most Muslims in the US are not demanding the institution of the caliphate, and are law-abiding citizens.

There is no "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's, and give to G-d what is G-d's in the Koran.

To be fair, there's not one in my Bible, either. :-)

#270 ben-ami

Most Muslims in the US are not demanding the institution of the caliphate, and are law-abiding citizens.

It sure doesn't seem that way with the FBI arresting Muslims all the time and CAIR preaching hate.

271 [Engineer]

Well, yeah, the FBI are arresting Muslims. All jihadis are Muslims. This does not mean that all Muslims are jihadis. It's like the fact that all members of the IRA are Catholics, but not all Catholics are IRA members, even in Ireland.

And you're assuming that CAIR is representative of American Islam. It's not.

#272 ben-ami

This does not mean that all Muslims are jihadis

Based on what the Koran teaches, I have to assume that ALL Muslims are my enemy just as in WWII all Germans were assumed to be our enemy. Just because they were not Nazis did not spare them.

Just because a Muslim is not a jihadi today, if he believes what the Koran teaches, he WILL be a jihadi at some time.

I am not saying we should arrest them just for being Muslims, but we have a problem and we need to find an answer.