Yep, no way this was a simple concidence.

People forget that if even one letter was off, by the end of the line, everything would be off.

You just can't get something this exact and perfect on accident.

Well, we know the forgeries were done on MS Word... could you please elaborate as to what you are getting at? :) :) :)

Oh... duh... don't mind me... lol

Charles, good work with the "control sample".

I think eff-word's comments pretty much say it all.

This should lay to rest the reader's claim that the line breaks in the "original" document were somehow inevitable.

I've said this before, but..

Edward R. Murrow is spinning in his grave right now from what has become of his beloved CBS News

Rather's rebuttal was pathetic, and his voice was shaky and hoarse. Rather's ego and partisanship is going to bring down the entire CBS News division. He refuses to come clean.

Sorry to go OT so early in a thread, Charles, but I thought you and the rest of the Lizards might want to see this piece that I just translated from the German original. It's by Henryk Broder, one of the few rational people still writing for Der Spiegel.

Without further ado:

Three years after

The Terrorist Understanders

By Henryk M. Broder

Three years after the attacks of September 11, the terror has lost nothing of its virulence, but much of its horror. Helplessly, we impute honorable motives to the perpetrators and interpret their arbitrary acts as political desperation. But what if all they care about is the joy of killing and the fun of dying?

The bloody trail of the terrorists runs from New York to Bali, from Istanbul to Madrid, from Beer Sheva to Moscow. And the closer the attacks to us, the more absurd the reactions get. It's as if there were earthquakes everywhere, and instead of stockpiling food supplies, the people in the endangered regions started reading nature poems to each other.

A writer recommends "more calm" in dealing with terrorism, a civil rights advocate talks of what he calls a "perceived threat" and calculates that you have a greater chance of dying during spring cleaning than of suffering harm in a terror attack, and the EU bureaucrats, incapable of putting together a common antiterror database, get upset at US agencies that would like to know in advance who is currently on the way to America. Privacy takes precedence over security.

Not even the massacre in Beslan has been able to shake the liberal attitude towards terror and the terrorists, conditioned as it is by socio-pedagogical pensiveness. The dead were not yet all recovered before we already heard talk of a "dreadful act of desperation" by Chechen rebels who "can no longer distinguish between good and evil, because they believe they have been forgotten by the world."

And from there it wasn't far to the conclusion that "the true culprits are in Moscow," because they deny the Chechens their boisterous nature that makes them unable to do anything other than raid theaters and schools, killing innocents and onlookers - so desperate and so helpless are they in their misery.

Once again, the roles were reversed on the fly. Culprits became victims (of politics, of history, of circumstances); victims became objects of understandable violence, involuntarily atoning for the sins of the culprits (in this case, Russian policies).

Unfortunate, but simply unavoidable. Just so were September 11 and March 11 already discussed out of existence: retribution for American and Spanish policies, respectively. Not nice, but comprehensible.

A strange argument based on the notion of "desperation," one that explains everything - much as do "monopoly capitalism" and "globalization." But desperate people usually kill themselves, not others, except in cases of family drama or jealousy or people who run amok and go on random shooting sprees, knowing that in the end they themselves will be killed.

Until now, people who ran amok were considered to be seriously disturbed, not protesters. Since September 11, however, they are presumed to have political motives - simply because they drape their death wish with a political alibi. This makes their demise the more dramatic, gives them the final kick on the way from here to eternity. What's a farewell letter to the relatives compared with the sensational effect of taking hundreds or thousands of people along with you to your death?

[cont. next post]

[cont. from previous post]

The culture of death whose eruption we have witnessed for several years is so crazy and at the same time so absolute ("you love life, we love death!") that we are unable to explain it. But we are used to finding an explanation for everything, for unemployment, for the weather and for so-called fundamentalism. So we invent an explanation, one that is halfway acceptable by our standards, and lay it at the door of terrorists longing for death. Thus do we overcome our own helplessness and perplexity. If they have a motive we can understand, then we not only know what makes them tick, we also have the chance of influencing them.

The best thing would be if our behavior were a reason for their going off the rails. Then all we'd need to do to make them stop threatening us would be to change our behavior. And already we're making an offer: We'd like to share our wealth with the poor of the world, and for a bonus we'll transform a church into a mosque. If only we had done that sooner, Mohammed Atta would still be alive, eager to participate as a partner in the multicultural dialog. But what if "they" have no other motive than the joy of killing and the fun of dying? What if they're not driven by the desire for global justice, but the pleasure of barbarism? Then we'd be in a fix.

Not only because any trash can in any shopping mall could explode at any moment, but because we'd be forced to recognize that there are phenomena that we can neither understand nor influence - unless we commit preemptive suicide, to beat the terrorists to the punch.

Outbreaks of mass insanity like this have occurred frequently in history: without really intending to compare, one could conceive the Third Reich as an attempt to first have a tantrum and then commit collective suicide. How desperate must the Nazis have been to commit the massacres of Oradour and Lidice? Was Goebbel's acclaimed offer of "total war" not of the same stamp as the profession of faith of the terrorists who love death more than life?

We, however, are beyond that. Our models are not Reinhard Heydrich or Osama Bin Laden, but the Dalai Lama, because he preaches nonviolence even in hopeless situations. And we are proud of a "peaceful revolution" in which not so much as a state-owned coffee machine was damaged. Why don't we recommend the same path to the terrorists? Why do we impute honorable motives to them? Why do we show understanding for mass murderers who know no mercy because they act on instructions from God? Why don't we go to them and make them a fair offer: "Dear people, if you absolutely must kill yourselves, then do it. We won't stand in your way. But do it at home. All the best and every success."

I saw a JAG episode where they were going to prosecute a person who impersonated an officer in a letter to the editor (criticizing Bill Clinton). Of course the criminal in the case was a woman who worked for a right wing think tank. Did the program legal advisor read the script. It was on CBS.

This is the whole point. Different typewriters/word processors/computers/software produce different-looking documents. It is amazing (to the point of unbelievable) that a mechanical typwriter in 1973, BY CHANCE, produced a document that, when overlayed on a modern document, comes close to lining up.

Here we have a case where they line up almost exactly--with differences so minor as to be laughable.

The documents at CBS are MSWord documents. No question.

The only question is when CBS is forced to admit it.

(And when will Andrew Sullivan will get enthusiastic about this? The blogosphere is striking a major coup and he's acting like he's bored. He didn't act like that when the Jayson Blair thing hit the fan.)

Good job, Charles. Maybe someone can try it in WordPerfect?

But... but... but... the superscript "th" WAS possible! Case Closed!

/Dan Rather's pathetic attempt off

Hmmm, anyone for goose?

#13--

as in cooked goose?

I guess Rather's commie blinders are so thick that not even prima facie evidence will change his mind. Has Dan been to LGF lately? The worst part is, he will still have a job next week.

$10,000 to anyone who can reproduce the CBS documents on a typwriter

Go for it Lefties!!!

#11 ddd

Mmmm...Catherine Bell

/homer simpson

This is fascinating to observe. I'm in South Korea and can't watch the networks or Rather to see how they're handling this, but I feel that I'm witnessing a revolution.

I woke up early yesterday morning and read Charles's first posts on this. I couldn't immediately grasp his point, but once I did, I began to appreciate what Belmont Club calls the "distributed intelligence" of the web.

Myriads of bloggers hosting myriads of comments all working on the same issue and pooling their insights as a meme grows and grows. What's astonishing is that the real insights don't get swamped by distorted information but reinforced by good data.

This is really big. The blogosphere is demonstrating its power over old media through its dynamism and flexibility.

Amazing to watch, really.

Jeffery Hodges

Rather's defense of the "authenticity" was pathetic.

He "proved" there were machines available in the 70's which no one has disputed which could do hyper script.

He did NOT prove that the Texas guard unit HAD one of those machines;

He did NOT prove that Killian actually "typed" those memos, which considering both his wife and son claim that he did NOT know how to type, would be rather an accomplishment on one of the more sophisticated machines;

But I know absolutely, from typing on selectrics AND earlier even an Executive you could move the "th" up but it was the SAME size, not smaller.

His "expert" was a handwriting expert.

He doesn't get it --the burden of proof is on him to PROVE that those documents are authentic not for others to PROVE they are not.

Charles -

You should scan the printed version of your Word document and use that. As it is, the ^th really jumps out.

keep writing cbs "news"

but also contact and complain/suggest/whine/coerce/badger other MSM outlets such as:

comments@foxnews.com

NBC

CNN

ABC

Don't let the MSM bury this!
do your part and e-mail all of these news outlets now!

#18 Horace Jeffery Hodges

What's astonishing is that the real insights don't get swamped by distorted information but reinforced by good data.

The blogosphere gives me hope that all is not lost for civilization. Sorry, lefties: there is such a thing as truth, and the truth will keep us free!

In the animated gif, I mean ...

Thom: I was going to do that today, but ran out of black ink, and the copies I managed to print were not good enough quality. I'll get some ink soon and run that test, but even from looking at the smeary copies I can see that the superscript will match perfectly -- as will the rest of the page.

I'm not sure whether this helps prove or disprove anything, but I thought I should do the following to add to the record:

TextEdit with proper wrap and superscript

TextEdit's auto-wrapping depends on the window size; as you resize the window, the wrap changes. It's pretty easy to resize the window so the wrap matches the CBS memo.

I also resized the "th" superscript so the inter-line spacing is consistent throughout the memo.

Next exercise: the overlay. :)

Law suit

C'mon Lefties!!!

$10,000 if you can reproduce the CBS documents on a typewriter!!

Dan Blather now relies on John Q. Public not having a long-term memory, and will soon forget about this "ugliness" from the great-unwashed blogworld.

Sorry Dan, the Internet never forgets...

Thank you Cato the elder-- extravagant use of bandwidth that it was-- that was well worth reading.

And we are proud of a "peaceful revolution" in which not so much as a state-owned coffee machine was damaged. Why don't we recommend the same path to the terrorists? Why do we impute honorable motives to them? Why do we show understanding for mass murderers who know no mercy because they act on instructions from God? Why don't we go to them and make them a fair offer: "Dear people, if you absolutely must kill yourselves, then do it. We won't stand in your way. But do it at home. All the best and every success."

The FOX "All Stars" tonight seemed just as clueless about how computer programs produce text vs. typewriters as was Dan Rather (in obfuscating the issue?) on the CBS News tonight.

I work in document processing and don't know a fraction of what Charles knows about this issue, but anyone who's read "The Mac Is Not a Typewriter" by Robin Williams clearly understands Charles' argument. The average American, I fear, doesn't.

Yeah, but I watched Dan Rather tonight and he said the documents were real. No, it's true, he really meant it. He was really serious about it. And he's on TV. Isn't that proof?

/msm flak

Vast Right Wing Conspirators Unite !

Put needy lawyers to work !

Get one of your lawyerly relatives to

-- post a 501c(3) template for a Charitable foundation to accept donations

-- for legal work for suing Dan Rather, his producers, CBS news, CBS, Inc., and Parent Company Viacom

-- to develop a class action

-- for Fraud, wire Fraud, forgery, aiding and abetting, conspiracy to committ Fraud, and if W. would sign on to it Slander in multiple counts

-- next up... Terry McAuliffe and staffers for violations of Fair Elections laws concerning Fraud, wire Fraud, forgery, aiding and abetting, conspiracy to committ Fraud, and if W. would sign on to it Slander in multiple counts

OT:

I thought this looked good:

Frontline
PBS 11 Sep 10 08:00pm Add to My Calendar
Series/Documentary, 60 Mins.
"Sacred Ground", Episode #2216.
Architect Daniel Libeskind plans to build the Freedom Tower at Ground Zero.

It's on now.

That is closer, Brian -- the margins are right and the word wrap is the same, but I can see big differences in the spacing just from eyeballing the two images.

17 locutus
The Canuck who plays Rab. It was just on history channel yesterday in Canukistan but the legal advisor on the show must have reviewed the script.

Re-posted from the previous thread - I apologize for the shouting at the end, and if this duplicates anything anyone else has already posted...

I can remember "centering" on my Smith-Corona typewriter - I would come to a complete stop, grab a separate piece of paper, and a pencil, write out the words I wanted to center, and manually count the characters. Then I would move the carriage to the center position, and backspace by the number of characters, divided by two.

Note that lines with an EVEN number of characters would be centered differently than those with an ODD number of characters.

Also note that if PROPORTIONAL spacing had actually existed on such a typewriter, ACCURATE CENTERING BY USING THIS METHOD WOULD BE FLAT-OUT IMPOSSIBLE.

18-Exactly...This is a pivotal point in history: IMHO, it signals the death knell for the MSM...No longer will they be able to perpetrate their disgusting lies...

Also, Brian -- my page was created with View->Wrap to Page.

Some have considered the possibility that the document was professionally printed...but...

WHY ON EARTH WOULD ANYONE SEND A PERSONAL, HIGHLY CONFIDENTIAL, MEMO TO A PRINTER???

Sorry, I'm shouting again. :(

/meds

I love the new animated giff, Charles. Seriously, If Rather somehow gets away with this I will be so J'Fn Pissed!

This website claims "the wingnuts are wrong"

[Link: www.dailykos.com...]

Anyone want to debunk their claims one by one?

Have to quote Stiv Bators on this one: "Open your eyes see the lies right in front of ya."

Heh! The Pulsating GIF (the third image) makes me think of the migraine that Dan Rather and the Democrats must have now.

This demonstration using the Mac and PC is great, because it defeats the arugment I've heard: "Well of course the font would be designed to match itself."

Right... there's clearly a major difference in line spacing between my version and the CBS version.

What's weirder, though, is that there's some wander in the line spacing between my TextEdit version and your TextEdit version. :) Mine's in 12-point, but it seems there's like one extra pixel of height to each line in mine than in yours, leading to a significantly longer block of text; what's more, your text seems to be bolder.

If I set mine to 11-point, it becomes way smaller, too small to be admissible.

#24 Charles

Oh yeah, I printed your version and the match is perfect. I could scan a good quality image if that'd help.

#43--

I said it on another thread: Rational Democrats must be frantic. They KNOW this is forgery and will help Bush. CBS could have stopped it, but one egomaniac just gave the story new legs, which raised the stakes not just for CBS, but for the Kerry campaign. And they will lose that stake. It's out of political control. Dan the Newsman may very well deliver thousands of votes to Bush with his stubborn, self-centered need to never be wrong.

#18 Horace Jeffery Hodges

Great point

The blogosphere is demonstrating its power over old media through its dynamism and flexibility.

In the old days, if you saw something wrong ... like you were at the event and knew a newspaper or newscast reported it wrong, all you could do would be to write a letter to the editor. They could publish it or not, however they felt like. It is a very different story now as Rather just found out.

One thing that remains the same is what is to be done if you have done something wrong. First, you disclose everything, including the fact that they betrayed the trust the audience had the right to expect. It would also include all the links and details of where they got the documents and specifically why they did not examine them closely as they should have.

Next you apologize and ask for forgiveness and another chance OR stop doing any political coverage in the future. Obviously, they can't be trusted.

Last, you make restitution. That is you do what you must to make the injured party whole. In this case, the injured party is the President . Rather and the station should give him at least as much time favorable to him as the time they spent trying to discredit him. They could run the Swift Boat ads, recant all the false charges about his reserve service and tell the truth about his honorable service

@9 Cato the Elder

Thanx for that translation. Very chilling. About the only thing the sane can do is find some remote spot and watch the lemmings commit suicide then.
There has been an increase in the lunar madness that is affecting great masses of the great unwashed.
This on top of the article that I just read linked by Norwegian Kafir about Malmo Sweden.
The swedes are in big time trouble.

These 70s era machines with proportional and superscript abilities, they were available together and in Times New Roman 12?

I hate to use absense of evidence as evidence, but don't you think 1000s of Kerry supporters have been trying to duplicate these memos with just such a machine for the past 24 hours at least. If it could be done, I'm beginning to think we would have seen something by now.

Renna -

The proverbial "monkeys and typewriters". Heh! :)

Then again, Charles—this is just a screenshot of the app, not a printout from TextEdit. :) I'm not clear on whether yours is a scan of a printout, or a screen capture like mine. I guess there'd be some extra fuzziness added to the letters if it were a printout/scan, not to mention some line-spacing inexactness (even with the antialiasing engine, they still need to make on-screen WYSIWYG text line up on a pixel baseline, or else underlines come out really wonky).

Thom: sure, send me a scan if you would...

Was just watching FNC and some former(?) CBS Exec named Jonathan Klein belittled boggers and implied the public shouldn’t believe "...some guy sitting at his computer at home in his pajamas" or words to that effect. Thanks to Stephen Hayes of The Weekly Standard for correcting him. My memory is too poor to due Stephen justice, but he handled Klein quite well.

brian: mine's a screenshot.

anyone who's read "The Mac Is Not a Typewriter" by Robin Williams clearly understands Charles' argument

For you PC-using heathen out there- No, it's a different Robin Williams. Not Mork.

Charles,

Daily Kos has fired up the reactor...

# 56 M

Good -- 'cause he's a LLL ...
:-)

You know what I can't wait for:

"Daddy, where were you when the 'Kierney Memo' scandal broke."

ps - must remember to read Charles' comments - I thought this Miller Lite had an extra kick or something - oh, it is supposed to be animated :-)

#56--

Speaking of authors who use Macs: I wonder what David Pogue's take on this is? He'd know enough to have an intelligent opinion--and is probably wise enough to keep it to himself, because he writes for NYTimes Circuits.

Excellent insights on CBS's strategy from The Belmont Club

Someone give that guy a hug!

Charles - On the way ...

Hmmm what do you know Apple's program kerns the same font differently, whodatunk, oh that's right anybody that's ever had to fix a clients business card or reproduce a printed page exactly on screen from scratch. Unless you're typing in the same program the original text was set in, you are in for a very long time in photoshop matching the proportions of kerning and tracking. Each program reads the "hints" in the letters differently.

The problem is that the details proving forgery take a few seconds to explain. People are hearing "may be forgeries" and they are thinking that some gray bearded expert is coming to some subjective conclusion "in his professional opinion." And many of course are just hearing "no proportional machines" and "oh yes there were."

# 41 tyr

See, the problem is they "debunk" 5 claims that have been put forth at various times over the past 2 days. There are several, more damning ones they don't touch. Charles, Hugh, Powerline, somebody needs to put up the "irrefutable" evidence in summary form somewhere -- the kerning, the centering, and whatever else ...

{Fer cryin' out loud now I've visited Atrios, kos, and DU in the same frickin' day! My eyes!!!}

Check out Hugh Hewitt's site. He's got a couple of e-mails from a Comp Sci professor at Rice University that explains why even the famed IBM Executive could not have produced the document in question.

Another brick in the wall.

Can the learned attorneys on LGF comment on the possibility of the possibility of slander,libel,conspiracy, obstruction of justice etc for Rather CBS, etc ???

#50 Renna

Oh my gosh, what an idea! Of course! There have to be enough Selectrics around for someone to have produced a document by now. LOL!

Charles, thank you for taking all this time and trouble to find the truth of the Forgery Fiasco.

Thirty years ago I majored in Journalism out of admiration for Murrow. Seeing what has happened to CBS breaks my heart. Of course, it really isn't CBS. That died when Viacom took it over. All they kept was the brand name because it had status. Or used to anyway.

And hello to grayp, nice to hear from you! I'll show better manners and will answer your email soon (instead of several days later).

I'm inclined to believe these memos were forgeries, and the animated GIF of Charles' vs original is impressive, but the serifs on the original are different from the MS Word version... what's the reason for that? It can't be Times new Roman, with that big a difference on the edges, can it?

Just thought of something: The use of the phrase "sugarcoat" does not seem like something that was professional military jargon let alone a phrase commonly used in that era (early 70's).

Anyone have thoughts?

#70--

No, it's the forgers running it through dirty copy machines and faxes multiple times to blur it and make it look "old."

Is this the drinking thread yet?

It should be. Celebration time!

OT:
I haven't read anything yet but I saw 111,651 hits today! WTF? I go away for 2 days and all hell breaks loose!

Can someone do a MS Word comparison with this document that is known to be legit? This document was typed up only a few weeks after the ones CBS has.

[Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

#74 reaganite

Charles was giving away coupons for free beer.

Just ended about 20 minutes ago.

#72:

If that were the case, we'd see a general smearing... But there appears to be some well-defined serif differences. Such as the B in Bush. Although I guess it is possible that the relative smear in a serif would be more than the relative smear in the body of a letter, which makes it more noticeable, even if the absolute smear is the same.

#74 reaganite

When you first signed up with the Air Force, what kind of typewriter did you use?

[Link: comedian.blogspot.com...]

Hey, Little Green Skeptics!

I've figured out there IS a way that that document could have been produced in the seventies. You ever hear of "troff?" That was a UNIX typesetting program invented in 1973. To cut to the chase, here's a superposition of the 60 Minutes doc and the doc produced by troff (groff actually, which is the gnu version of troff):

[Link: members.shaw.ca...]

Here's the source file I used to generate the document:
[Link: members.shaw.ca...]

As you can see, I definitely didn't have to jump through hoops to make the two documents line up identically. They just sort of appeared that way (actually, I had to rotate the doc a tiny bit to align things).

Here's the shell script to generate the postscript file. Just run it at the command prompt:
[Link: members.shaw.ca...]

Like I mentioned in an earlier thread, Killian probably didn't generate the memo in 1973. A possible scenario is that he had many handwritten and typewritten files, he wanted to organize them, so he got someone to go through his files and transcribe them for indexability and neatness.

Since it's clearly possible that troff could have been used , and troff has been around since the early 70's, then there's no need to invoke time-travel arguments to explain these docs.

I just posted this on an older thread by mistake.

[Link: belmontclub.blogspot.com...]

Dan Rather's defense (courtesy of Glenn Reynolds) of his 60 Minutes accusations against the Bush National Guard record, coupled with this CBS Press Release (hat tip: Roger Simon) may indicate the direction in which story is developing. When caught in an ambush the first two rules are to exit the kill zone and lay down a curtain of return fire so you can make your getaway.

Charles, the blogosphere may be in for an allnighter.

#76 RightIsRight

Just ended about 20 minutes ago.

But, but, I just got home from the airport! I demand a recount!

Nice job Charles.

I found LGF linked here:
[Link: news.zdnet.com...]
after following a Drudge link.

#78 Tziporah

When you first signed up with the Air Force, what kind of typewriter did you use?

An electric with all the little arms, why?

Piers Morgan has come forward to authenticate these memos.

#50 renna

I hate to use absense of evidence as evidence, but don't you think 1000s of Kerry supporters have been trying to duplicate these memos with just such a machine for the past 24 hours at least.

I don't think there are thousands of Kerry supporters!

Try the overlay experiment with Times New Roman 12pt on WordPad the freebie word processor that comes with Windows. No superscript so only compare the first three lines. Yup, the kerning does not match that of Word using the same Windows True Type font

#85 reaganite

Did your typewriter have the ^th on it?

# 81 I.F.

It's OK -- I just visited Belmont club as an antidote ..
:-)

#85--

Duuude. We've been talking about nothing but typewriters, printing, fonts and stuff for two days.

# 73 T

To the family of Lt. Col. Killian, for bravely standing up for his name and honor

Salud!!!

71 FSIOFUL - I don't have a subscription to the OED (Oxford English Dictionary), which would be the best source to tell us the origins of "sugarcoat." I did find a free etymology site here:

etymonline.com

It states:

Sugar coat (v.) "make more palatable" is from 1870.

I'll keep looking for other sources.

#77 ehsiao

The Smear Factor™

#88 Tziporah

Did your typewriter have the th on it?

Honestly, I don't remember, it was 23 years ago. On the other hand, I remember when we went to computers in the late '80s. I remember also around 10 years ago seeing the superscript show up in windows.

# 67 M

See -- here is a typograhpist (or whatever) who lays out a bulletproof case for forgery -- FOX or somebody needs to have him on twice a day for a week!

#90 JohnAnnArbor

Duuude. We've been talking about nothing but typewriters, printing, fonts and stuff for two days.

I've been gone for the last 2 days, huh?

Another aspect of CBS's strategy is just to get through today. Tomorrow is the anniversary of 9/11 and it is unlikely that anything else will be big news. If they can get through the weekend, the furor will have died down. Look how well Kerry's strategy has worked--here we are now focused on Bush's TANG service when we thought we'd be focused on Kerry's responses to Cambodia; the magic hat; the self-inflicted wound; the purple hearts and silver/bronze star. All that has gone away... The refocusing strategy has already worked for the Democrats and unless 1) the new Bush documents are certified and accepted as forgeries by the media despite CBS's position and the story is kept alive; or 2)the questions that Kerry has refused to answer keep getting asked and the records he refuses to release come to the fore; then I think it is too early to celebrate.

#83 reaganite

Don't worry. Evolutions Eve had an extra coupon. Here ya go ;-)

71/FSIOFUeL:

OED, 2nd ed. (1989-91):

sugar-coat, v., to coat with sugar; fig., to make palatable

1910 J. J. Reeve in The Fundamentals: The little truth in it served to sugar-coat and give plausibility to some deadly errors that lurked within.
(vol. 17, p. 137)

#98 Right Wing Conspirator

Evolutions Eve had an extra coupon. Here ya go ;-)

I knew that wench was good for something!

Charles, please check your email and shoot me a reply.

#80 Canuckistan

Alrighty then! We've gone from exotic typewriters that cost as much as a car, to Unix programs that probably no one outside the programming community has heard of?

Oh, the humanity.

Or are you making the funny joke?

You have heard that Killian's wife and son say that he just wasn't the note-making type, haven't you?

68 ted -- Speaking as a rather stupid lawyer: Other than on GWB, the libel is on a dead man-- and the oldest rule of law is

you cannot libel the dead

GWB has more important things to do than file suits against CBS -- so best of all -- the final denouement will be in the court of public opinion as informed by the blogosphere and not the courts of law or the courts of network "news."

You may now have one medium-large drink!

#80 Canuckistan

Troff generates commands for a typesetter. Without a typesetter you've got nothing. Feed the same commands into the same typesetter and get the same output. What Postscript renderer did you use? The presumption is that Killian had a typewriter, not a computerized phototypesetter in his office.

If he retyped them from older notes, why did he sign them like they were real. Military officers are pretty cautious when it comes to making career ending confessions on paper.

Personally, I'm waiting for CBS to say that the 'source' was actually a Right Wing Fanatic who was trying to sully the Loving Liberal Left ... maybe even say that President Bush backed it.

Or they'll admit that they were wrong, and that they jumped on something that would make President Bush look bad because in their biased little newsroom, they're anything but objective.

Wait. this is CBS. Scratch the second idea.

In case you don't know who I am, You don't. This is my 1st blog post ever! Yay for me!

{Fer cryin' out loud now I've visited Atrios, kos, and DU in the same frickin' day! My eyes!!!}

Gotta watch it when you visit those sites -- you could get burned by depleted uranium. ;->

Serves Rather right for having the arrogance to take a side in the presidential election. Anyone can see whose side he is on, and that is disgraceful. He calls himself a professional journalist? He belongs at a college newspaper. And he is incompetent and dishonest to not even question the authenticity. Who cares if the signature matches? Anyone with a computer can do that. Bring this guy down. He deserves it, and so does America and the world.

Wanted: 1 Texas Typewriter

-must be of 1972 vintage
-must use New Times Roman font
-must superscript
-must have ability for kerning
-must produce documents that resemble 2000 Office Word documents

If found please contact:

Dan Rather
CBS News

102 Thom

are you making the funny joke?

Hey, people are basically saying that that document was IMPOSSIBLE in the early 70's. I'm saying that it WAS possible, and I show how it could have been done too.

Did Dan Rather loose his voice from arguing the facts or SCREAMING about partisan bastards ruining his career?

F U DEMO DAN.. You are through!

Almost Having Sympathy.. Almost..

Splatter

# 105 L

Welcome! good post!

#91 Buckaroo

And to Charles and all the other blogs that brought this to light and now have the LLL that much more closer to a total meltdown -

Getränk
bebida
boisson
bevanda
饮料
ποτό
飲み物
питье
음료

#80 Idiot

How many jet pilots who could not type knew how to use troff in 1973 and had a Unix system at home for their personal memos?

from History of troff

Troff was originally written by the late Joe Ossanna in about 1973, in assembly language for the PDP-11, to drive the Graphic Systems CAT typesetter. It was rewritten in C around 1975, and underwent slow but steady evolution until Ossanna's death late in 1977.

Killian must of had an really advanced beta in MAY

# 106 G C

I'll just blame the Zionists ...
:-(

103...gotcha...May i have a large one ???

#58 and #56,

I'm on you side, but you guy are wrong. Robin Willams is a woman (though eccentric) who's written about computers and word processing for years. She also has a book called the "PC is Not a Typewriter."

She is not the weiner male actor from "Mork and Mindy."

I urge anyone looking for an easy-to-read primer on document processing (especially clueless "mainstream" journalists trying to interpret this argument) to read her books.

Please somebody here support me.

I just cracked open a bottle of Belvedere... a suitable replacement from our true allies the Poles, over Gray Goose, which comes from the egg-sucking *spit*french*spit*

I may have to post a drunken rant on my blog later.

Again, great work Charles... can I have your autograph?

Did men even do their own typing in 1973?

#108 Midwest Pundit

Must also have telepathic imput mode for officers who did not type.

#80 Canuckistan

"A possible scenario is that he had many handwritten and typewritten files, he wanted to organize them, so he got someone to go through his files and transcribe them for indexability and neatness."

So he hired a college kid to do this on a Unix system some time between 73 and 84?

And then he printed these memos on what exactly?

And then he signed them and stored them where before he died in 1984?

Since his surviving family says he didn't keep any 'memos' at home.

More likely Microsoft uses the same 'typesetting' technology as groff/troff when they wrote or bought Word.

Charles,

Hugh Hewitt is linking this gem:

[Link: defeatjohnjohn.com...]

I'm not hat-tip surfing, but please post this! it's great.

# 119 zb

Well, I'm sure J Forbes K did the VVAW meeting minutes ...
:-)
:-)

Canuckistan, what system did you use to render the troff output?

Posted at Hugh Hewitt:

[Link: hughhewitt.com...]

Hi Hugh,

I am a Professor of Computer Science at Rice University who has followed the evolution of word processing technology over the past 30 years. A cursory glance at the "Killian documents" shows that they are forgeries, the product of a modern word processing system. Even the most powerful word processing systems available in the early 70's were not designed to produce propotionally spaced documents. Moreover, no mechanical typewriter, even with variable letter widths like the IBM Executive typewriter, could produce precise propotional spacing comparable to a modern word processor. Precise proportional type-setting is a very demanding computational problem. Since modern PC's are more powerful than supercomputers from the 70's, we take this form of computation for granted.

Let me take a moment to recount the state-of-the-art in
word-processing in the 1970's. I used a state-of-the-art word processing system to write my undergraduate thesis at Harvard in the spring of 1971. I was one of a handful of Harvard students who were given access to a PDP-10 time-sharing system to conduct my thesis research. I used the same machine to prepare my thesis using a word processing program called "runoff". The output device for "runoff" on the Harvard PDP-10 was a flexowriter, a typewriter-like device driven by punched paper tape. I had to write in the superscripts and subscripts by hand because the flexowriter could not perform fractional line spacing much less proportional font spacing. The runoff program did not support any output devices with proportional spacing. Neither did any other word processing of that era to my knowledge. In the late 1970's, researchers at Bell Laboratories developed a new version of runoff, called troff, to support proportional typesetting on a photo-typesetter; troff is still available today on standard Unix distributions.

So in 1971, even the most powerful available computer systems were not equipped to produce documents like the Killian documents. In Fall 1971, I entered graduate school in Computer Science at Stanford. I soon gravitated to the Artificial Intelligence Laboratory, which had the most powerful time-sharing system (a PDP-10) on campus. In either 1972 or 1973, Xerox gave the Stanford Artificial Intelligence Laboratory a prototype xerographic printer called a "Xerox Graphics Printer (XGP)". Two similar prototypes were given to the MIT Computer Science Department and the Carnegie-Mellon Computer Science Department. The programming staff at the Stanford AI Laboratory was thrilled with the gift because it was the first opportunity that computer science research community had to develop software to support printer quality type-setting. The three computer Science Departments cooperated in developing the word processing programs to support the XGP. I wrote my first published research paper and my doctoral disseration using the XGP in Spring 1976. It would take another decade before comparable word processing systems were available to most computer science researchers on minicomputers running Unix. It
would take nearly another decade before they were widely used on personal computers.

Sincerely,

Robert "Corky" Cartwright
Professor of Computer Science
Rice University"

#120--

Nahhh, it just used voice recognition. Didn't you have a voice recognition typewriter in the '70s? Didn't everyone?

116 ted-- you may even super-size it.

#119 zulubaby

Did men even do their own typing in 1973?

Real men still don't - that's what secretaries are for :-)

#100 reaganite

I knew that wench was good for something!

That's about the only thing :-)

#109 Canuckistan

You may be on to something. I know CBS was running this photo of Killian typing his personal memos as proof that they are authentic.

Awww, Blather is a little hoarse!

#122 American Infidel

they did not type they 'hunted & pecked'...

I do that now, what's your point? :-Þ

#105 LanceKates

Welcome to the crazy house! Friday nights are fun and this one should last til next thursday. All the old timers are smarter than me, but they let me hang around anyway.

How'd you find LGF?

#80 Canuckistan

Unix and troff in the seventies were almost exclusivley limited to Bell Labs and Universities on Dec systems. TANG / 1971? I think not.

#131 Mr Pol

Real men still don't - that's what secretaries are for :-)

LOL

slowly steps away from Mr Pol

#109 Canuckistan

The focus has been on typewriters, not computers (in 1973, in a ANG unit)!!

Not catching the relevance here, Bud ...

Canuckistan,

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that someone would go to these extremes (using troff or groff or some unix based something) to make memos??? The dude was in the Texas Air National Guard for crying in the night.

Where are the "bright" reporters?? How about a little investigating???

1) We know the dates of these "documents". Let me see verified documents known to be written by Killian from both before and after these memos. Let's find them. There have to be more. If all of the memos or documents that he signed off on or was known to have written match the ones we have before us now, then I'll tip my hat to you and say I was wrong.

2) There ARE contemporaries who are alive who worked with him. Apparently his secretary / a secretary from that time period is alive. I would think that you could trot her out and have her say that they used some fancy schmancy new fangled typewriter with unusual balls with special fonts and superscript capabilities. Did the TANG have this toff/goff or whatever the hell technology that might have made it possible? Where's the hand receipt for it? Where's the purchase order?

3) Where are the articles in the MSM talking about the interviews that Barnes daughter is giving absolutely destroying his credibility, saying he is making it all up?

4) Where are the timelines that suggest that the memo regarding the physical "ordered" a physical 2 months earlier than it was due? With the implication that he missed it because of drugs. When was drug testing available or more appropriately used in the military?

5) Where are the originals? If they were "private" CYA documents, why the repeated copies? Or copies of copies? Who gave the documents to CBS? Where is the demand for the source? Why won't CBS let people look at their "originals"? Can we do fingerprint analysis of the papers CBS has?

And this doesn't even touch on the technology aspect of it. And there are many more similar questions that need to be answered. Instead, we're going to see the lemming (and literally dumb) reporters ask stupid questions like "what effect will this have on the election"...

Dan's irrational diatribe and victim mentality was one of the most embarrassing displays of the liberal illusion ever seen. It was sad...very sad.

So CBS news just started here on the left coast. Theyre leading with the hurricane story. So...

"Attacks today on the CBS news"...poor baby.
"partisan political operatives"

LOL!!

104 deadman

If he retyped them from older notes, why did he sign them like they were real.

I'm not a conspiracy theorist, so I'm not eager to act like a fanatic and deny reality and confabulate amazing improbable scenarios. That being said, consider this fabulous scenario.

- Killian plans to write a memoir someday.
- His notes are in disarray.
- He hires a professional to transcribe the notes.
- Killian proofreads the transcriptions. If they're free of errors, he jots his signature or initials somewhere on the page as confirmation.

#132 Right Wing Conspirator

LMAO!!! You solved the case with incontrovertible photographic evidence. Kudos!

I'm not a conspiracy theorist

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA *Deep Breath*HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Dude, you kill me! Stop already, I'm trying to eat!

#142 Canuckistan

If that was the case, don't you think his wife and son would have said that?

Or are they just lying Republican shills ... ?

# 142

dude, quit digging ...

Gawd!!! I'd like to bitch slap Rather back to the 70s!

I usally never trust people who use "truth" in their names, but you have good points. Bust his liberal bubble only_truth!

RWC -- LMAO! Great pic!

Perhaps different kinds of sophisticated typewriters at the time that could do this, but would a small office have one?
Yes these machines were sophisticated and produced great quality but..

Where are the ball impact marks around characters?

Where are the ribbon smudges or smears?

Where is the character sliding (caused by the ball impact as it rotates off once the impact occurs causing some letters to be randomly thicker on one side)

Where is the paper stretch between lines? (line spacing becomes less consistant)

Where are the half printed or soft printed characters (caused by old or worn ribbon as it passes around on it's second or third time, paper dust and dirty characters)

Where is the ink build-up on some regularly used letters like vowels that occurs on dirty characters.

The IBM's were great once out of the box and set up right but they needed constant maintenance to be consistently good.

The forgers goofed.
They could have gone out and got a daisy wheel typewriter at office works for $120 and nobody would have picked this up.

Canuckistan, I already proposed the "hiring a pro typesetter" theory on another thread as a joke. Doesn't seem quite as likely as some DU type hothead taking advice from Susan Estrich and faking the documents.

Again, what system did you use to render the troff commands? Does Word use a Postscript brand engine to render text. The formula editor output from Word seems awfully familiar to me.

I'm waiting with great anticipation to the day that Dan Rather has to come clean with the truth. He better do it soon. My husband tells me I'm getting too "worked up".

127 deadman

Canuckistan, what system did you use to render the troff output?

IN have cygwin installed on my PC. It's a free unix/linux emulator that runs within Windows:
[Link: www.cygwin.com...]

New analysis of the documents in question revealed a heretofore unnoticed watermark quote:

"I'm Terry McAuliffe, and I approved of this memo."

No comment from CBS as yet.

Charles, check your email again!

Hey, I gotta unpack, I'll be back later...

I have found the culprit!

PHOTO OF THE FORGER AT THE BOTTOM OF PAGE

I haven't seen anyone suggest the Selectrics that used a film that attached to the paper when struck by the key. Well, sorta attached. Darn thing flaked off at times!

#119

lol zulubaby

72 JohnAnnArbor, I think they sprinkled salt on a scanner bed to get all the "noise" or tiny dots. Of course, you can add noise in Photoshop even more easily (choose Filter > Noise > Add Noise or one of the other similar commands like "Dust and Scratches", which you can add or subtract).

I've scanned various old documents, including family books, and the noise pattern in itself is very unusual to my eyes. I've had to clean it up before and never ran across an old document that had this regularity and quantity of noise. It's more random and irregular in my experience.

Even a Texas cockroach poop-a-thon wouldn't produce that many regularly spaced "random" dots. Whoever did it was probably laughing while they added all those, thinking it was a cute way to "age" the document. It was stupid.

#127 deadman

I used linux and groff..

$ groff -v
GNU groff version 1.18.1
Copyright (C) 2002 Free Software Foundation, Inc.
GNU groff comes with ABSOLUTELY NO WARRANTY.
You may redistribute copies of groff and its subprograms
under the terms of the GNU General Public License.
For more information about these matters, see the file named COPYING.

called subprograms:

GNU grops (groff) version 1.18.1
GNU troff (groff) version 1.18.1

which creates

$ file memo-hahaha.ps
memo-hahaha.ps: PostScript document text conforming at level 3.0

used 'display' to view it and the output is similar and that's as far as I went with this useless experiment :-)

Canuckistan,

Cygwin, that's what I thought. So your document was rendered through the same path that Word uses. You proved that Windows actually can do something consistent, giving the same instructions. Thats worth something.

#142 Canuck

Come over here for a sec.

Look, you seem like a good guy. And I like good guys.

Here's the deal: I have this bridge that spans Manhattan and a very populous other boro. I really need some cash.

I am willing to sell it to you for only $10,000.

I think it's time to remind the sceptics of Occam's principle, that states that one should not make more assumptions than the minimum needed. Occam's razor helps us to "shave off" those concepts, variables or constructs that are not really needed to explain the phenomenon.

Charles has provided us with the plausible, easy and very simple logic conclusion: The memos were very very probably written with MS Word.

Now, that doesn't exclude that Aliens from Roswell typed the memos, that Killian was a UNIX geek, that Killian's secretary was mad about superscripted TH and made the TANG spend thousands of dollars to produce it on simple memos (but without a letterhead) etc.

We have the easy, plausible solution to a problem. Anyone with a PC and MS Word can reproduce it. Now if CBS goes for the complicated, improbable solution, the onus is on them to prove it.

What Dan Rather believes in or not is terribly irrelevant here.

I suppose he only has photocopies anyway. In that case he'd better come up with other "evidence". Just trust his "unnamed sources"... yeah right.

I remember, when the German STERN published the "Hitler Diaries", they had a "historian", too, who vouched for the "authenticity" and although the forger didn't even get the gothic script of Hitler's initials right (confused A with F on the binder), the editors of the STERN stood by their story, before after a week they had to eat crow.

Dan Rather might hope for 9/11 remembrance and Hurricane Ivan to make his story go away but it wont.

Something good will come out of it. The MSM will finally have to realize that they need to fact check their stuff properly. I didn't know how many experts on typesetting the blogosphere could produce in a few hours. Just amazing!

If the media are the 4th power, the blogosphere just became the 5th.

Hubby doesnt understand all the ranting and raving I'm doing over this. The kids are hiding too...He says it's not good for my health!

Can I sue Dan Rather for emotional distress?

#109 Canuckistan

Actually, you are 100% wrong:

"Two people so far have attempted to claim the prize on the basis that the IBM Selectric Composer was a proportionally-spaced font typewriter available at that time (though not yet in wide use). In fact, even CBS News is apparently going on the air tonight with "evidence" that this model and several other typewriters of the day could even do super- or sub-script characters.

Yet the IBM Selectric Composer's own manual makes superscripting of the type seen in the CBS forgeries impossible. This section is taken from page 51 of the manual (page 56 of the .pdf):
As you can see, the super- and sub-scripting available to these typewriters only involved the raising or lowering of letters; it obviously couldn't make them any smaller, since the wheel was fixed-point.
To repeat: a typewriter could only raise or lower letters -- it couldn't make them smaller or larger because the wheel used fixed-size characters. The CBS forgeries contain Microsoft-style mini-font superscripts, which could not be done even on a typewriter with superscripting ability.

The only way a fixed-type machine could have made the Microsoftian-style superscripts is if there was a special key for "st" or "th" -- and, according to the IBM manual's page 167 (page 172 of the .pdf), there were no such special character unit values.

For CBS to say "but typewriters in the day could do superscripts" ignores the whole point of why the superscripting in the forged documents are so persuasive -- the letters on a fixed-size metal wheel can't just get smaller or larger. They must know this, and therefore their continued attempts to deceive the American public are even more sickening."

Go here to see proof:

[Link: defeatjohnjohn.com...]

#132 RWC

OMG! ROFLMAO!

Time to run to the store, to get frozen strawberries and limeade, so the wife can make us some frozen margaritas.

Gotta get in the FNDT mood, ya know.

Wait, one more thing. The date group:

18 August 1973

As most of you know, I've been military for half my life. Prior to auto complete in Windows, the military standard was 18 Aug 73. Many of us old timers still type it the same way. The full date didn't show on military memos until Y2K...

Some thoughts.
I have a Mac and a PC -- I typed out the text of the CYA memo on my Mac in MSWord6 for Mac. (I know, I know, I'm a Luddite. But I learned all the key codes, and they’re different in later versions, so I stick with it.) I reverted this document to the default margins & font, and it looked just like Charles’. I didn’t superimpose printouts, but I will. The only thing that wasn’t identical was the same thing Charles noticed about whether the superscript “th” went above the line or not. And as Charles noted, it has to do with whether it’s on screen or on paper. But -- here’s something else to chew on. I seem to recall that there are some “style” settings where superscripts are governed by certain rules, and these can be reset and become part of the default document template -- a variation in the font of the superscript and a certain setting of the line spacing. I was able to choose a combination of these two that yielded the superscript “th” that stuck up above the line without causing that entire line to be spaced differently than the other lines. Just something to be aware of -- I’m just being totally academic here.

Also, just for the sake of being academic, I’ve been trying hard to think of ANY possible way that any of this could be legit and not a forgery, but honestly, it’s overwhelming. There are so many different, separate problems with the documents. Charles’s demonstration is the most solid and convincing of all -- but the others are solid too, like the incorrect military terminology and the lack of a secretary’s initials. Plus, I just can’t believe any officer would type something so neatly. And the fact that the family disputes it ought to be the nail in the coffin. I watched the video of Dan Rather’s defense tonight -- how could he not address the objections of the widow & the son? The family SAYS the man could not type!

I am so TIRED, TIRED, TIRED of lies against Bush -- the lies about the election (I voted for Gore and was bitter about the outcome, but I’ve always said the fault lay not with Bush but with our Constitution), the lies about Niger, the lies about so many things. And now here comes Kitty Kelly. “I question the timing”. Can I say that? Can someone on our side say that? I’ve been very concerned for some time that Bush might lose -- and I’d like to give Kerry the benefit of the doubt and think he’d rise to the occasion as commander in chief, but I just can’t, because he’s made it too clear. But I’ve been afraid that Bush would lose and that we would lose all momentum against the enemy. (Which is what I think Cheney meant, and I agree.) Now I’m seeing the left just crack up -- and most of the Dems have hitched themselves to the weirdo left -- Michael Moore, the violent peaceniks, the postmodernists, and now Kitty Kelly and Dan Rather -- for the first time, I’m feeling confident that Bush is going to win and win a big mandate. He certainly has my mandate. He’s had it for three years tomorrow.

#67 M,
#95 B,
and # 97 Dr. Sanity

All the "dueling experts" vs. lame Dan Rather assertions mean nothing but --

how long will this last in the MSM news cycle.

Dr. Sanity is correct that the DNC AND Liberial Biased Media Bubble residents, cycnically believe --

"you can fool some of the people all of the time" e.g. everyone you went to school with who were "C" average or below. That's half the population.

(and not the people who visit the blogosphere much)

The DNC and Liberal MSM consider those people suckers to be managed through spin, framing of the question, ad hominem attacks, lying and now ("Like who cares man, it's for our guy") Document Fraud

So let's hope, pray and see how long it lasts. If it lasts half as long as Abu Graib, Kerry is Toast.

The Good news today -- Bush 51% -- Kerry 46%

And this election is going to get dirtier and dirtier, just wait, this is ONLY round one, after the Convention.

Ding Ding, tough fought round with warnings for punching below the belt, but round goes to Bush, 51% -- 46%.

7 more weeks.

Electoral-vote.com -- What REALLY matters

Seriously, some REAL investigative journalism needs to be done.

Someone needs to dig up Killian signed documents from before and after the dates (or in some cases in between) on the memos. Let's compare them. The rest of this "there was the technology to make these kind of documents back in 1973" crap is irrelevant. It MIGHT have been at least partially technically possible.

BUT DID IT HAPPEN? Where's the proof? BLather's word that they're real?

SHOW ME THE DOCUMENTS! (the originals and some before and after comparisons)

CBS owes it to the public to disclose the source. Unquestionably.

#126 -- I caught the end of the interview with Gary Killian. He said he gave 60 Minutes some references that could confirm Lt Col Killian's high opinion of Bush. 60 Minutes never talked to them.

Ben Barnes' daughter is on now. It doesn't look good for 60 Minutes.

This link to Byron York indicates that 3 months before the alleged memo, Lt Col Killian concurred that Bush should get a "not observed" evaluation. What kind of sugarcoating creates a "not observed" evaluation?

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

BTW, I'm a fairly good typist. I never considered sitting down to type a memo for myself. A hand-written note would do. And I doubt if I (or my estate) would hold onto such a memo for 30 years.

posted this before but..Here are few of my suspicions and assumptions..

There proof is to be found on a Hater website.

The culprit(s) of this fraud were internet geeks. My money is on ties with a Bush bash website.

The documents were created right after the GOP convention to counter Kerry's slide in the polls.

It is likely that additional forged, and much harder to detect documents were created by the same culprit(s)

Fakes were circulated on Bush bashing sites prior to the 60 minutes feature.

The culprit(s) will remove proof from sites but the incriminating docs were passed to other like hatin.. minded people.

Kerry had no idea this fraud was being perpetrated. I don't even think advisor's or staff knew. This was a radical liberal splinter group. They embraced it but had no knowledge of the fraud. They are being screwed by their constisiuency.

Splatter

I better have a glass of wine. Will anyone join me?

That's it, Charles. Now you're just showing off with the animation overlay.

I guess I'll throw some change in the tip jar.

:)

169 Free Speech is for Uber Libs

You are 100% wrong

No, I'm saying that a UNIX typesetting system could have been used to produce an identical output.

First the left tried to claim that typewriters capable of perfectly emulating contemporary word processing programs not only existed in 1973, but were used by Texas ANG units. Now, they are dreaming up phantom memoirs and transcriptionists. You guys reak of desperation.

Mean while, as Byron York points out, even if CBS or the democrats had had enough respect for our intelligence to procure a 70's era typewriter for their forgeries, the content of the notes still doesn't add up.

"Anything is possible".
That's the excuse lefty-shill Rather and garden variety left-wingers are using. Golly. I never realized "anything is possible." I hope Rather's lawyer advises him that "anything is possible."

Anything is possible, and monkeys just flew out of my ass.

The left are devoid of reality and logic and shame.
No respect for facts or truth; just as long as they have a free pass to bash Bush, they will say and do anything.

# 177 Cal

Please, be calm, remember that Blather is the one who is sweating ...

To IBM, for making cool typewriters for many years and then making completely computers and software so that "old folks" could tell the difference in memos, but LLL journalists couldn't

Salud!!!

I hit the tip jar today, just because I love Charles. He really earned it.

Don't say "monkey" .. The libs will go bonkers

165 deadman

Cygwin, that's what I thought. So your document was rendered through the same path that Word uses. You proved that Windows actually can do something consistent, giving the same instructions. Thats worth something.

As far as I know, cygwin is a self-contained environment and uses very few Windows facilities.

The argument would be resolved if someone generated the doc on an actual Unix/Linux system and posted screenshots here.

#94 reaganite, As I remember it, you are right about when Microsoft Word gained the capability to do the auto superscripting. They released a major "new" version of Windows Word in 1994. I think that is when all the "auto formatting" started kicking in.

I remember because they dumped a lot of dollars into that R&D round, and used the opportunity to kill Mac Word 5.1a version, which they replaced with a port of the new Win Word.

#177 Benzinger Glen Ellen Cabernet thank you --

Unless you have a nice Chateau Neauffe de Pap 1957 from when they were still marginally grateful.

Thanks Buckaroo!

*Clink*

I was in the car but a radio station played CBS's package on the forgeries. It was pathetic by any standards. I heard no interviews with those who are raising the questions, only with Marcel somebody explaining how he looked at the signature and by golly it looked good to him. Gee whiz. I mean, the standard is that the journalist says, "But critics say...(paraphrase viewpoint here)" and then you cut to a clip of the critic.

I better have a glass of wine. Will anyone join me?

I just switched to wine per your advice...Did you know Dan Rather sucks?

Sorry Charles for posting this so much -

DC LGF meetup on Sunday at 1200 noon. Shoot me an email if interested

#186 Canuckistan

You are sooo missing the point ...

I couldn't reproduce the same with my microsoft word program. I printed the CBS doc straight from the website but it printed small, it shrunk. Then I printed my "forgery" They didnt match up. I was so distraught.
Why does the CBS doc print small from the Acrobat?

So a handwriting expert confirmed that the signature on the photocopied (multiple times) document was the same signature as on a known authentic document.

Assume he is right. So, what can you conclusively say as a result of that assumption:

The signature on the document is a copy of Killian's signature.
(remember, LLL'ers - we started with a photocopy - get it . . . are you with me???)

Can anybody name 3 people that are capable of inserting a digital copy of a known signature into a word document to produce a document that a handwriting expert would certify as having a copy of the same signature as a known signature?

Anyway, as no two original signatures are identical, it would be interesting to maybe start superimposing known Killian signatures onto the signatures of some of the Islamic Terrorist suspected forgeries

Unfortunately, this uproar over fonts and the like has tended to obscure a crucial point: Rather and CBS are making the allegation, they have the burden of proof.

They have done nothing to confirm the provenance of these documents except trot out some hand-picked experts who testify to what exactly?
That the signature is authentic?
So what?
It is easy these days to forge a signature.
That the documents could have been produced on a contemporary machine?
That is in dispute, to say the least, and what if it wasn't?
Even if the documents were indisputably typed on a 1973 machine with paper and ink of that period (something CBS is nowhere close to demonstrating), the authenticity of the documents would still not be proven or even strongly supported.

This is entirely about media credibility, which is a form of centralized authority, and it is natural and obvious for authoritarian elements to side with CBS.

We are in the midst of a revolution against an authoritarian regime that has effectively ruled the western world for over 40 years, the institutional media.

Doubt it?

In 1968, Walter Cronkite's credibility was so great that his word alone, handed down in a special called Tet '68, could reverse the outcome of a crucial battle and change the course of a war.
His protege Rather does not have that kind of authority, but authoritarian elements have never been known to relinquish power quietly or usually even peacefully.

#177 Californican

St Gen. Texas White, not kerned, but porportionately poured every 20 minutes.

Thanks for the invite!

Since some unix speak is occuring on this thread... a free beer awaits the one who can tell me what the keystrokes shift-zz does.

I just noticed the memo is throbing. kinky.

#181 FuriousJ:
Can you get to the meet-up on Sunday?!

Canuckistan:
You are trying to run with the big dogs. It is best that you stay on the porch.

OT--well, just a little bit:

As of this posting, today's unique visitors number 83,729(and rising by the minute). Yesterday's stats, because the numbers kept resetting, are not displayed correctly but at 05:27PM PST Charles said "Traffic today is well over 100,000 unique visitors."

About two years ago Charles had posted this:

I think we’ve set an LGF record today, with over 10,000 unique visits according to my statistics application, as of 6:19 pm Pacific.

You've come a long way, baby.

#185 Splatt3r9unk

Don't say "monkey" .. The libs will go bonkers

But it's true, I know it is.

REPLY TO 190

You should have seen their eyes darting back and forth while they tried to remember what the lawyers has told them. PATHETIC

Perhaps they used this typewriter.

Good work Charles. I'm picturing Dan Rather at home, sobbing, biting his pillow.

How about someone make a highly inflamitory CBS office memo describing how Dan is planting phony stories to discredit the Nixon Administration. Dates and Details, complete with a computer generated Dan Rather signature!

Then shop it out to Fox or ABC.

Sound like fun?

#172 Captain Nemo

Dude! MS Word 6 for the Mac?!?!?!? I wish that you coulda heard Eeeeuwww that errupted from my innermost being. Oh the horror, the horror.

#203 Ms. Andi

Oh, that was good!

Captain Nemo #172 - thank you for what you said.
I actually voted for Clinton (once) but not for Gore because I live in Tenn and I knew him before he invented the internet.
It's the lies and the propaganda of the demos that have swayed me adamantly to the Repubs. I am repulsed by the word "hate" that drips out of their Peace on Earth fangs now with every breath they draw. I find it hard to support any cause that will physically attack people, no matter how much I believe in that cause. It seems where Clinton may have been leading them to a more moderate view, now it appears that party is all extremists who just want their views to be heard with no unity whatsoever. And this all stems from leadership. The dems at this point have no strong leadership to guide them so they are being torn apart by the cliques within them.
Kerry is no strong leader. Edwards just reminds me of the southern politician Burt Reynolds played in the movie "Striptease".
From what I've read and heard and seen, the Democrats have turned into more of a hate group then a political party. What kind of people would endorse a book that concerns itself with the assassination of the sitting president?
What kind of people would so loudly applaud a carpetbagger whose movie is being distributed by the terrorists to show support for them?
I am amazed and appalled by these people.
I do hope that the mainstream will see enough of this to actually vote and show that America is not like this...

I read somewhere today -- can't remember where so I apologize to not give attribution -- that one of the angles on this is Rather's timing. CBS had the docs for quite awhile (6 weeks?). They did the story, however, right after the commencement of the 60-day "political ad free" period set out by McCain-Feingold.

Anybody have any thoughts on that? Coincidence or tactic?

#168 Californican

I'm as worked up as you must be over this, and it's not helping me since I am supposed to be writing some audio playback code for a project I'm working on. My dad is an LLL and was haranguing me the other day about how he was listening to "Texans for Truth" on the radio and how they were questioning Bush's National Guard service and so on. I would love to take a printout of the 1973 and 2004 LGF memos to him to throw in his face, but I'm afraid it will only get me more worked up so I'll wait until tomorrow.

Anyway, I just realized something. Feeling this much anger and hatred towards Dan Rather, Kos, and the other idiots who are pushing this story and cherrypicking the evidence, is a terrible feeling, but one which I rarely experience. Can you imagine what it must be like to be one of the hard-core left-wingers who feels that kind of hatred and malice towards the President, Mr. Cheney, Mr. Ashcroft, Mr. Rumsfeld, etc. all the time?

No wonder they've lost all control of their critical thinking skills (what few they seem to possess) in their rush to discredit President Bush's service 35 years ago. We haven't been hearing much about the Swift Boat Vets in the MSM, but since the book is still #1 at Amazon, a lot of people are out there reading it, and it is far more credible to read a sentiment shared by more than 250 Swift boat veterans than to hear from some no-name author who claims to have written a book with the "straight dope" on Bush.

American Infidel (#122)

If men were found anywhere near a typewriter, they did not type they 'hunted & pecked'...

I know a couple men who still type like that and it's the perfect description for it. LOL.

Mr Pol (#131)

Real men still don't - that's what secretaries are for :-)

:-P

#203 Ms Andi

LMAO...I wish I would have found that ;-)

On topic - The Democrat Party's Watergate - summary of the pertinent news to date, plus commentary in the latter half

#172 Captain Nemo

Thanks. I needed to read that.

About being tired - me, too. Sometimes I feel like I'm losing it with all this stuff.

Must. Not. Give. In. To. Despair.

Tommorrow it will be 3 years. I still can't believe people have to be convinced. My God. If litttle kids being shot in the back doesn't open eyes, I wonder, what will it take?

#171 reaganite

Prior to auto complete in Windows, the military standard was 18 Aug 73. Many of us old timers still type it the same way.

No shit. That's a fact, and anyone who's been in knows it.

I'm also caught by the fact that the "Lt. Colonel" is on the line below Killian's name. As nayone who has been in knows, the rank is part of your name, and as such, is place on the same line.

As on the authentic memos, it should be "Jerry Killian, Lt. Col" on one line.

There's no doubt here...unless you're a moonbat, or work for CBS. :-P

#121 Partisan - At Microsoft in 87, their tech pubs writers did use TROFF to produce documentation. Xenix. My group also used Mac Word with PostScript embedded for a project. I believe they rewrote Win Word in house, not a 3rd party buy. They also did Excel in house, first on mac, next on windows (because it wasn't technically feasable at first on windows). The Word apps did not leverage TROFF in any way that I'm aware of. It's not logical... different computer platforms (everything was different down to the core).

# 208 K

Probable tactic -- but who cares? it's nicely backfiring on them and continues to take us closer and closer to 11/2 ...

Charles, my mom says that Michael Medved mentioned LGF and you personally on the air today.

Congrats on the stats!

BTW.. where is that tip jar? ...Just in case money flies outta my ass instead of monkeys.

What is the matter with you people, DAN RATHER said they were real for Crissakes, isn't that proof? And besides, why aren't we interested in what these documents reveal? Stop with the overlays prooving they were forgeries. There is an obvious explaination you have all overlooked, Al Gore invented word processors in 1970. DUH!

Man, all you people with IQs above 90 really are difficult to control. The Democrats have been working VERY hard to correct this whole "critical thinking" situation for 25 years through public schools, the NYT and Universities.

Please go watch "Jackass" or "Extreme Makeover" and stop thinking about this.

Just trust Dan. You'll feel much better. Really.

#176 Splatt3r9unk, I don't believe they were done by internet geeks. They would never have used MS Word in default settings. The forger was more likely a middle aged guy who sees MS Word as just a kind of electronic type writer. Note that the journalists duped by these forgeries are on the whole middle aged guys as well. You would think they remember what a typewriter looks like, but apparently it's all the same thing to them.

#219 Gretchen

*LOL*

Whoooweee! That alternating thingy is too weird!

OT
The BBC has reporters in Jamaica covering Ivan live. I'm not sure how they are getting their stories out, unless they are in offices with undersea cable connections.

Ivan strengthening again, just below Cat 5 with 150 mph (240 km/hr) winds.

Oh, and Dan Rather cruises highway rest stops.

I'm still not sure why I should care about what Bush did three decades ago.

Ed Moran,

Oh, and Dan Rather cruises highway rest stops.

Sure, but have you ever been drunk with Dan Rather?

;)

Someone like Bob Fertik or Marty Heldt or Bob Rogers?

You have a good point there..

#176 Splatt3r9unk

Trying to read all and keep up. sweating…

One problem with youe timeline. I saw last night, don't remember where, that the Dems or CBS had the memos for at least 6 weeks. Part of the reason I think idiot Ben Barnes did 'em. Same kind of shmear tripe that helped Clarke and Wilson sell books so well.

#197 shiftzz

Since some unix speak is occuring on this thread... a free beer awaits the one who can tell me what the keystrokes shift-zz does.

In the vi editor, shift-ZZ writes the current file and quits. I tend to type ":wq<enter>" myself. Vi rules! Although since I have used vim for the past few years, I really should send my donation to the starving children in Uganda (the program is charityware).

#211 Right Wing Conspirator

A couple of other people on some websites found that. I did a search for OLD typewriters and came across those comments.

#224 zulubaby, this is not about that, it's about what the democrats and the media are doing now

It is time to push on CBS News to lay out the sources of the memoes. They have zero duty to protect people who provide them with forgeries-- that whole protect the sources stuff is out the window.

Now that the forgery is proved, its time to peel back the onion.

# 223 Ed

Methinks the Brits would have laid cable from Jamaica to various points North decades ago, no?

What really happened during George Bush's time in the National Guard.

[Link: www.hillnews.com...]

Kerry's own biographer admits Kerry is toast if Kerry releases his war records.

Robert Reich is getting CREAMED on Hannity/Colmes right now.

Ed
What do you think about the Orlando area?
We're trying to find a generator to send to my daughter. We're getting our best one repaired first thing in the morning and sending it down ASAP. The stores even here are sold out. Except for the generator, they're still ready from the hurricane before last.

197 shiftzzz

St Gen. Texas White, not kerned, but porportionately poured every 20 minutes.

Huh?

Time to subpoena harddrives.

This might fall under "malice".

And #233... Kerry's records are half of the problem. Where are Teresa's tax and charitable contribution records for the last decade. She is going against decades of precedent by withholding them from the public so that they can judge if there are...

con-flicting interests.

Lyndon Johnson, 1968: "If we've lost Cronkite, we've lost the war."

George W. Bush, 2004: "If we've lost Rather, who gives a shit?"

The establishment media have already lost this battle, just having their word challenged in public is a huge setback for them.

# 224 zb

'cause Bush was baaad. See, Kerry may have been bad when he faked purple hearts and consorted with the enemy and slandered every serving soldier under oath -- but Bush was absent from the basel!!!

/oh, how I wish more people saw as clearly as you

#235 J.D.

OT: Hello fellow Orlandoan! Did you try the Home Depot on Colonial? They had piles of portable generators two days ago. Also gas cans & other hard-to-finds. May be gone by now, though.

Manco

Bennett challenged Reich to name ONE Republican party official or political office holder that has smeared Kerry like Uncle Teddy or Terry McAwful has done to GW.

He stammered and all he could come up with was "Swiftboats"..and then start insisting they are "affiliated with the White House."

Someone take away Reich's booster seat so we don't have to watch him on camera any more.

Even Josh Marshall and Kevin Drum are expressing some thoughts about the seriousness of this.

Drum brings up another VERY IMPORTANT question that needs to be asked, ON THE RECORD:

[Link: www.washingtonmonthly.com...]

A QUESTION FOR BOBBY HODGES...In the Killian memo dated August 18, 1973, Killian says this:

Staudt has obviously pressured Hodges more about Bush...Harris gave me a message today from Grp regarding Bush's OETR and Staudt is pushing to sugar coat it.

Forget for a moment whether the memos are genuine or not and just ask this: did Walter Staudt pressure Bobby Hodges about Bush back in 1973? Both men are still alive, and when CBS read the memos to Hodges over the phone he agreed that "these are the things that Killian had expressed to me at the time."

But why ask Hodges about Killian's state of mind in 1973? Why not ask him instead if he himself got pressure from his superiors to go easy on Bush? It's a simple question, and Hodges ought to have a simple answer. If he values the integrity of the military, he should tell his story instead of hiding from reporters.

—Kevin Drum 6:49 PM Permalink

#228 jake

We have a WINNER!

I would deliver if i could. Sorry

I don't like vim though, just because when I re-edit something it positions itself on some line it THINKS I would like to start at. WTF is that??? I hate software of anykind that tries to protect me from myself (which is what I spend my days doing for others). I date myself at MS xenix 1.x

VI rocks!!

Martin Heldt runs AWOL

Bob Fertik runs democrats.com

Bob Rogers is a vet.

Remember these names..

Canuckistan
If somebody had a memo written at the National Guard, in the 70s, wouldn't a typewriter have been used?

For example, if the secretarial pool typed the memo, one of the secretaries would have used a typewriter, isn't that right? And all of the secretaries of the pool would have had the same kind of typewriter, isn't that right?

And if Killian had a private secretary, wouldn't his secretary have used a typewriter?

How can you imagine that UNIX typesetting equipment would be used to produce a "memo to file". After all, this was for one or a few copies, not for a massive publication.

Your theory that typesetting equipment would be used for a "memo for file" seems to me just absurd, as far as I can see. This wasn't for a massive publication; just a mere "memo to file".

#223 Ed:
We have two friends on their honeymoom in Jamaica right now. They waited too late to leave (no comment), so they are there, somewhere.
They are not the most resourceful folks that I have ever known.
I cannot imagine hanging out in a Cat 4...

The odds that one could take MS Word on the default settings and simply beging typing and, allowing the computer to decide line breaks, come up with the same line breaks at the same exact words as in the questioned document, are small.

The odds that each character on each line, including spaces and punctuation, would also superimpose perfectly, are infinitesimal.

The odds that this would be repeatable with respect to each of the four questioned documents CBS "uncovered" are astronomical.

Finally, the odds that this would occur only with those documents particularly damaging to President Bush are -- well -- cosmic, man.

So... how can this be explained? It can't, except through the magic of word processing. Common sense tells anybody who is actually old enough to have SEEN a real typewriter, let alone used one, that this simply couldn't happen. It's difficult enough to produce two documents on the same typewriter and make them look identical. In contrast, word processing programs give us just the opposite: infinitely repeatable results, yielding infinitely repeatable identical points of comparison between two documents.

Consider the following. At the turn of the century, law enforcement agencies used photographs and the Bertillon System, developed by a French anthropologist (Alphonse Bertillon) who observed that there were specific body measurements that would not change, which were used to identify prisoners. An example would be the length of the femur. In 1903, prison officials at Leavenworth realized that the photographs and Bertillon measurements for an inmate and a new prisoner, both named Will West, were identical. The only distinguishing characteristic was their fingerprints.

After that, fingerprinting became the accepted method of personal identification in law enforcement. What wasn't fully appreciated at the time was that fingerprinting was more useful scientifically for purposes of identification than the Bertillon method not because fingerprints look the same or different per se; but because fingerprints allow the examiner numerous points of comparison, whereas the Bertillon method only offered perhaps 15 or 20.

The more points of comparison two fingerprints share, the greater the certainty with which an expert may testify that the prints are "identical." It doesn't hurt that jurors can compare the prints themselves to see if they "look" the same; but it is the points of comparison that allow the expert to testify scientifically.

In the late 1980s, DNA evidence became the new standard for personal identification. It offers basically limitless points of comparison based on the unique molecular structure of your DNA. DNA is thus vastly more accurate than fingerprinting; but jurors are less comfortable with it because they can't "see" the DNA, only a representation of it on film based on the way DNA reacts with specific enzymes.

In this case, each character in each document affords multiple points of comparison, and taken together the fact that the documents superimpose perfectly provide theoretically millions of identical points of comparison. Of course, this can't be explained through the use of a typewriter, only a word processor, where the behavior of the program as a whole in selecting, for example, line breaks, confirms along with all the other evidence that these documents were produced by Microsoft Word using the default font at the default settings.

Of course, I have to laugh when publications like the NYT only two days ago splashed a big article claiming Bush didn't show up for guard duty. The evidence? A guy who used to work on the base said so.

Note to Kos: Go F*** yourself. I tire of lemmings like you, who persist in denying the undeniable, defending the indefensible, and tolerating the intolerable. Face it: these documents came directly to CBS from the Kerry campaign and are obviously forged, and no matter how much Dan Rather jumps up and down and holds his breath, they'll still be fakes.

I hope it costs Mr. K the election.

#236 Cal...

I was just accepting your invite for a glass of wine. Guess the joke was lost on all.

Charles,

Congats on being the epicenter of the blogoshpere!

Am I off my nut or am I wrong for thinking that the Killian family, since CBS still claims these letters are from his personal file, should sue CBS to get the originals back claiming they are in possesion of stolen property?

Charles is even famous in Norway--FLERE NETTSIDER--means Little Green Footballs.
[Link: www.aftenposten.no...]

Peter Verkooijen, CBS really screwed up. What we're seeing is advanced BDS. They think this is a story! They think this is a huge story. It's not, and they've destroyed their credibility, made total fools of themselves, and are now the story themselves.

What media bias?

Do these DOCS remind you of anything?

Look at the author/researcher

Maybe its just me..

#176 Splatt

Wish I could find it again, but several weeks ago I saw a post on DU where someone promised that there would be some information coming out about Bush that would knock the Swift Vets story off the air.

It kind of jumped out at me at the time but I dismissed it as raving. It sounded very teenagerish and silly. Now I wonder if it wasn't a LLLer cackling about the fake memos s/he had just given to the Kerry campaign or Rather or whoever. Looked around a bit for the post today but didn't find it. It was on a Swift Vets thread, I'm sure -- I was checking in to see how the SV story was playing on the left.

#240 Purple Fury

Hello! I'm a Kentuckian. My daughter lives in Lake Mary and we're sending a generator to her. Her husband has been everywhere, he says, and has come close, but just keeps missing them. I'm scheduled to move to the Sunshine State in about a month or so.

Good luck to you!

248 shiftzz

...and now I'm out of wine.

(whine)

# 241 D

"Someone take away Reich's booster seat so we don't have to watch him on camera any more. "

wouldn't that be a stitch? You'd just hear this annoying faux-intellectual voice from under the table "Sean, that's not true!"
:-)
:-)

Californican, already drinking wine. Dare I ask whether you're drinking, um, west coast usa :-)

And for you history buffs.. Here is something from historychannel.com

Seems they are buddies... Hummm

Stop and think about it for a minute and compare:

1) SBVFT all come out on the record, signing sworn affidavits, making themselves available to the public for interview and scrutiny. They demand that Kerry release all his records. Money to support SBVFT comes from Republicans in Texas who (of course) know Bush and thus the Bush campaign is secretly behind them. Kerry and the MSM says so. SO must be so.

2) An anonymous source gives until now undiscovered documents that shed a negative light on the president. Won't come out in public and hides behind skirt of Dan Rather. Won't produce the original document. Won't answer questions. Family of dead man who "wrote" said documents disputes their authenticity. Almost uniformly, document experts assert most likely forgeries. Rather also interviews Kerry campaign fundraiser (whose daughter says is lying) who says bad things about Bush but this isn't campaign coordination.

Who would you believe? Who should we believe?

Great Photoshop job: BadDan Bob

#247 jahdpq

Note to self, do Not cross this person. I truly love succinct and thorough arguments. Thank you.

#176

If that were the case, why won't Rather come clean? He'd sacrifice some punk LLL hacker.

This Cannot Stand!
"Dan Rather and CBS must suffer extreme consequences for continuing to stonewall the American public on the putative Bush memos. Because for decades CBS has had one of the most important licenses in American broadcasting, they have special responsibility to the people of this nation. The puerile defense offered by Dan Rather this evening on the CBS News (transcripts here) is an insult to the citizens of this country and potential liability to the two-party system as we know it. The extraordinary personal selfishness of Rather at a time national crisis is beyond comprehension. If this continues much longer, Viacom better consider dumping CBS fast."

[Link: rogerlsimon.com...]

I could not agree more.

Cal!!! And what is it, like 7:00 your time???

#261 BagDan Bob

PIMF PIMF

#249 greenmiler

Good point. CBS says it has original documents, so they must have obtained them either:

1. From the author, before his death in 1984 (right) or
2. From someone authorized to turn them over and, since they were personal documents, that would have to be a family member.

Um, checkmate, CBS?

#261 LOL

We have two friends on their honeymoom in Jamaica right now. They waited too late to leave (no comment), so they are there, somewhere.

Ann; I just saw the eye moving in on Jamaica..this storm is hell. Your are right to be worried..the eye is solid but small, bad news..We have relatives in Naples FLA, trying to convince them to leave...will keep yours and mine in the prayers

#180 Canuckistan  9/10/2004 06:22PM PST

169 Free Speech is for Uber Libs
You are 100% wrong

No, I'm saying that a UNIX typesetting system could have been used to produce an identical output.

Canuckistan, I used typesetting systems of that era. They were photomechanical and the output would not look like the memo you've seen. There is a difference in dots per inch of over 1500. This memo is most likely at 300 to 600 dpi while typesetters of that time produced characters at 2500 dpi. Typesetters of the time took pictures of single lines of characters and imposed them on photographic paper that was processed inside the machine. Word uses mathematical calculations to draw arcs, curves, and straight lines. I promise you the output will not match. It's impossible.

I am NOT implying anything! These are just honest, true blue, activists.

I'm sure they would never do anything unseemly to hurt Bush.

I'm sure.

Ill never look at a typewriter the sameway again...

Dennis Miller is covering the document fraud on his show right now. It's not looking too good for Dan. Miller's caustic wit is cutting through the CBS BS like a knife through butter.

This issue is not getting smaller, it's getting bigger.

Charles,

If you have Adobe Acrobat you should turn your word doc into a .pdf file. The superscript will appear slightly higher, where it should be.

I know because I tried it.

Then line it up with the forget copies. It should match exactly.

72 degrees, humiditiy feels like 80% drinking Austrailian Yellowtail Shiraz...well, I was drinking, but I finished off the bottle I opened last night right after Dan Blather pissed me off.

LOL

I think Drudge just changed his font to Times New Roman!

Can any font-geeks confirm that?

Not wearing the leather tonight...too hot and humid. (see profile) Giggle!!!

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