He'll never sign form 180.

Test

That would certainly answer the question of why won't dingledorf sign off on the form.

Jheka (#1),

Worse than that, he's never even apologized to his "band of brothers" for accusing them of being rapists, murders and war criminals.

That would cost him nothing.

But he won't.

What's that tell you about Senator Kerry's ability to be CinC?

Was Kerry’s original discharge less than honorable?

Yes. Just look at his daughters...

some war hero--release the records--you got GWB's now cough up yours senator.

#5 Raj

LOL!

Seriously, I get the feeling that if sKerry is elected, this will come out after Jan. 20th.

Are we handling another ten megaton bomb ?

We'd RATHER keep this story warm... : )

hahaha. lol @ #5. very good.

but yes, Kerry will never never never sign the form. we all know it. secretive. pathetic. stupid. there are plenty of adjectives to pick from.

also, I wonder if anyone's found a transcript yet to put to rest THIS little mystery:

Did Kerry call Bush the "WORST PRESIDENT" at the 2nd debate??

Some October surprise this would be.

TO: Charles Johnson
RE: Involuntary Discharge

There could be a number of reasons for being involuntarily discharged from the mlitary.

A Reduction In Force (RIF) could be one of them. Perfectly legit. Nothing disparaging about it. You just didn't make the cut when they were making the decisions on who to keep and who to let go.

We need more information. What I'd look for, if I had the capability, would be, what was the status of Naval officers in his year group and grade? Were they keeping them or discharging them. Was this discharge in any way different from other officers of that branch, time in service and time in grade who were discharged? If so, how so?

This document is an clue. Not an answer. The answer is buried in the remaining facts. Fact, unfortunately, that might not be readily available before 2 Nov 04.

Regards,

Chuck(le)

read the sun article

[Link: www.nysun.com...]

read it now!

Well John Kerry has this contract for a book or a film and He can't wave the publication of his military records... .
If John Kerry is elected there's going to be hell to pay. His secrets will become the basis of shakedowns and bribes. Watergate will look like a Sunday school picnic when we see the baggage that this man has. You can't keep a secret in Washington. You can only delay the inevitable.

Carter's upgrade of the discharge from less than honorable would also explain why Kerry would had had him in such a position of prominance for the convention in a position of "elder statesman". He clearly owed him a favor. Has anyone else noticed Carter's low profile during the past several Presidential campaigns? Funny he should suddenly be so revered. Hmmmmm

Juvenile bloodbath averted in Norway

A bus of youths from Kristiansand was stopped by police en route to Venneslahallen, a short drive north. This chance action by police prevented a clash with 130 Vennesla teens who were waiting for the bus, armed with axes, knives and bats, newspaper Fædrelandsvennen reports. "I see no reason to censor the facts. This could have ended in catastrophe," police lieutenant Hans Martin Skovly at Vennesla sheriff's office told the newspaper. Groups of kids from Vennesla have been close to open conflict with a notorious youth gang from Kristiansand, and this episode occurred in mid-September.

The band of 20 on the bus were also armed with bat, axes and knives, out to get the 'farmers' from Vennesla, Skovly said. The gang were unaware that they were on their way to meet a much larger mob with the same intentions. "The situation in recent months has been very serious, but there are many signs that the conflict has calmed now," Skovly said.

Norwegians will design Ground Zero museum

The renowned Norwegian architect firm Snøhetta has been awarded the job of designing parts of the culture center linked to the World Trade Center in New York City, newspaper VG reports. The decision came on Tuesday evening.

My friend tells me that Kerry will lose in a landslide. With all of his Michael Dukakis-like campagning, history is weighing in.

OT: And there are probably 368 left-wing economists who'll disagree, but 368 Economists Denounce Kerrynomics:

Entitlement reform is the most important fiscal challenge facing the country, yet Kerry's approach has been to deny that any fix is needed. Indeed, Kerry criticized the recent Medicare expansion for not being large enough.

John Kerry has proposed tax increases that threaten to sap the economy's vitality and reduce long-term growth.

All in all, John Kerry favors economic policies that, if implemented, would lead to bigger and more intrusive government and a lower standard of living for the American people.

I've been thinking about this and I can come up with only two possible explanations for why John Kerry wouldn't release his military records.

1. Richard Nixon did do a witch hunt on him and found nothing. Out of spite, he could have given Lt. Kerry a dishonorable discharge.

2. Lt. Kerry accepted a dishonorable discharge to avoid treason charges.

If it turns out to be #1, then why wouldn't Kerry produce his file and say he was a victim of the Nixon regime. This would actually help his campaign, so the chances of this being the case are nonexistent.

If it turns out to be #2, then I can understand why he wouldn't release his records. Treason doesn't look good on a Presidential resume.

Kerry's dicharge would fiit perfectly factually with a dishonorable discharge.

1. he was discharged in 1978, 6 years after hios tour was up and 1 year after Carter extended amnesty to dd'ed war protestors

2. his discharge had to be processed by a board (the standard procedure for amnesty discharges)

3. He got his medals re-issued in 1985 right after he first took office something that would only need to happen in a dishonorable discharge

it fits all too well to just be coincidence.

If he got a bad discharge as a result of Nixonian dirty tricks, he could have (as mentioned in original Sun piece) claimed it as a badge of honor.

The Beldar blog briefly references one scenario, kerry may have accepted a less than honorable discharge as an alternative to a court-martial (perhaps for conduct unbecoming of an officer and a gentleman, or giving aid and comfort to the enemy).

Just speculation, but the Navy avoids an embarrasing trial that would have attracted a lot of media attention, and Kerry avoided possible prison term.

All just speculation, but if this was Bush we were talking about, this story would lead off tonight's "60 Minutes II".

UK extremist Islamofascists Al-Muhajiroun shuts down

Al-Muhajiroun has announced it is dissolving and ceasing activities, after the radical group called for an Islamic state in Britain and glorified the September 11 hijackers as "the magnificent 19". The group, which claims to have 700 UK members, said there was a "new reality" in the post-September 11 world, and Muslim groups had to be united to face "the evil forces" of the west.

Its leader, Sheikh Omar Bakri Muhammed, told the Guardian: "It's an era of crisis. In this time, as Muslims, we are obliged to dismantle any groups and unite until the crisis is solved."

Duh!

John Kerry needs to release his records!

We also need to urge him to go on Sinclair Broadcasting when they show "Stolen Valor".

That would make it a MUST SEE and he can't win, no matter how much he spins after the movie is seen by the public.

Here's the info:

Massachusetts Senator John Kerry has been invited to participate. You can urge him to appear by calling his Washington, D.C. campaign headquarters at
(202) 712-3000.

So what if His Holiness was dishonorably discharged? "A prophet is without honor in his own country, etc. etc."

Seems very plausible. Will the MSM take the ball and run with it? Not bloody likely.

Big:

I'm pretty sure a Dishonorable Discharge can only result from a General Court-Martial, and a Big Chicken Dinner Bad Conduct Discharge can only come from a Special Court-Martial.

The DD and BCD are criminal punishments. A CM is a military trial, and is judged by a jury of the servicemen's peers. (IIRC, a Summary CM may be heard by a panel of military judges, without a jury, but is limited in the sentence that can be administered. Also, IIRC, a defendant before a GCM or SCM can waive trial by jury and be judged by a panel of judges, however, the GCM and SCM can still impose the sentences otherwise allowed them.)

Richard Nixon could not give Kerry a DD anymore than George Bush can order Michael Moore to serve 20 years in prison for being a treasonous bastard.

The facts as presented do make sense. Of course until there's full release of documents it can't be said for sure. However do note that contact with a foriegn governemnt without pre-authorization by the U.S. government is a seriouse offense for anyone on service status (either active or reserve). I remember a young Army officer at Ft. Carson back in the 80's who sent a letter to the Soviet embassy on some air headed subject. The response was routed through the military and the young officer was removed from service.

22 Norwegian kafir
UK extremist Islamofascists Al-Muhajiroun shuts down

This just means its going underground. Wackos like this don't simply stop being wackos they just find a darker sewer

...long time lurker; first time poster...

OT

I've seen reference to tonight's debate in the MSM as Bush vs. Kerry III.

It makes me wonder if this is the one where Rocky Balboa George W. Bush defeats Apollo Creed for the World Heavyweight Championship but then gets complacent and loses to upstart Clubber Lang John^fKerry.

If this is the case, we all know that Rocky Balboa George W. Bush befriends Apollo (who trains him for a rematch) and beats the snot out of Clubber Lang John^fKerry to regain the title.

Or am I just off the meds....?

The movie is Stolen Honor. Stolen Valor is the book about the bogus Vietnam vet phenomenon.

The web is moving faster on this than the record CBS stuff. This should prove very interesting

10 U.S.C. § 1163

(b) The President or the Secretary concerned may drop from the rolls of the armed force concerned any Reserve (1) who has been absent without authority for at least three months

(c) A member of a reserve component who is separated therefrom for cause, except under subsection (b), is entitled to a discharge under honorable conditions...

So he could have been discharged simply for being AWOL? (As has been pointed out elsewhere, even if Kerry had shown up for Reserve drills, given the haircut he was sporting in 1970 he would have been sent packing.)

Ya' know, if Kerry were a less arrogant guy, I might wonder if his reaction to the whole memogate story were something like, "Yikes!!! Just STFU about early 70's, Guard&Reserve, and AWOL!!!!!!! Don't GO there, man!!!"

cathy :-)

He certainly could have received a General Discharge under "less than honorable" conditions. This was much more common than the Dishonorable discharge or the Bad conduct discharge. It simply dealt with the issue and got rid of the problem administravively.

OT, sorta. I just got this from NewsMax:

Sinclair: Kerry Enemies List 'Just Astounding'

Reacting to a threat from a Kerry campaign official who was unhappy about Sinclair Broadcasting's decision to broadcast a documentary about John Kerry's anti-Vietnam War protests, Sinclair spokesman Mark Hyman said Tuesday that he was "astounded" to learn that the Kerry campaign was keeping a media "enemies" list.

"To imply that they might use something such as the independent regulatory process of the FCC to exact revenge against media organizations that they find to be enemies or not supportive of their cause is just astounding," Hyman told Fox News Channel's "Special Report with Brit Hume."

Earlier in the day, campaign spokesman Chad Clanton had warned, "Listen - they better look out there at Sinclair Broadcasting. ... They've stirred up a lot of hatred. ... I think they're going to regret doing this. They better hope we don't win."

Hyman said Clanton's words "certainly sounded like a threat" and that was cause for widespread concern.

"It's something that should cause concern for every media organization in the country - if this is going to be a precedent for this campaign or any other campaign should they win," the Sinclair spokesman told Fox.

Carter's amnesty was IMO the greatest evil he ever perpetrated: Worse than the North Korea deal even. Without that amnesty Bill and John would not have even been eligable to run, and most liberals woudln't be eligable to vote. That's an alternate timeline I want to live in.

interesting story.

it is october, and it is surprising to some.

most likely explanation is contact with the enemy in paris.

he was watched by the fbi and others and i am sure they knew about it

karl rove did say when he was nominated that america would not know which side kerry fought on when they go finished with him.

may be an exaggeration but still........

makes you thing huh?

america don't take kindly to traitors

Thom:

When is "Stolen Honour" supposed to be broadcast?

This over at InDCJournal.

UPDATE: A couple of fair points have been raised about this article. In the comments, Rod Thompson thinks that Kerry may have been simply discharged for failing to be promotable, hardly a dishonorable issue for a reservist more interested in politics than in serving after several years. Via e-mail, though, comes this clarification from Raymond, an ex-AF JAG:

NY Sun: "Mystery Surrounds Kerry's Navy Discharge"

So, Johnnie might have been discharged under "less than honorable" terms, only to be given a pass later on by the Carter administration? Well, would certainly explain why he's avoiding the Form 180 like the plague. And why the DNC has, since the whole "Fortunate Son" flop, done everything possible to drop the whole Vietnam issue.

Things that make you go "Hmmm...."

As former Army recruiter I can say that there is something fishy with Kerry's discharge. To date the only comments from Kerry or his staff have been in regards to having been assigned inactive after being on active duty. My understanding of the Navy reserve is that as an officer in the Naval reserve Kerry had a two part service obligation consisting of active duty and reserve duty. What's being "twisted" by Kerry is what his reserve duty obligations were. There two types of reserve status. In one you activley participate in weekend drills.etc and are assigned to a reserve unit. In the other you are on a call up list with no unit affiliation. What's confusing is that the Navy terminology for type of reserve obligation with the drilling requirements is called inactive reserve. Kerry says that he had no obligation because he was inactive. If Kerry never went to drills he would have been dropped from roll and dishonorably discharged.
The answer to this lay in what was Kerry's reserve status.

OT Anyone see THIS NASTINESS from the Dhimmies?

And they say it is the RIGHT that is being dirty?

Unf'ingbelievable that this POS and his twisted friends have a shot at running this country.

#39 Cam

Between Oct. 21 and Oct. 24 depending on the city.

Sinclair's web site is here.

Looks like I'll be able to watch it on Fox 5 out of Baltimore. Woo hoo!

OT:

Go and read the comments posted over the Captains.

Some really good information on what kinds of discharges Kerry could have recieved.Captains Blog

I'll second Cam's request for date and time data on the broadcast...found my local SBG station, now I need to pin down the time of the broadcast.

My wife is making a point of ringing up the station to support the broadcast...important to get the word out that people out here actually want to get it on the air (to counter the LLL-fascists who want to either censor it or punish those who dared show it when the Maximum Leader (John F'n Kerry) becomes president).

All that is needed for the success of evil is for good men (& women) to do nothing...

Time to fight back is now...not after we wake up 3 Nov hearing the words "President-elect Kerry".

Hoping for an October surprise!

Have you ever noticed that the only thing President Bush has ever said about the AWOL/Physical issue is "I was honorably discharged".

Maybe he knew Kerry could not make the same claim. Just maybe he knew that if JFK continued to stand on his "war hero" status it would get kicked out from under him in the end.

What poetic justice that would be!

This will never get legs. And for the most Part, i think it is a non-story

#48 Eric

A candidate running as "war hero" less than honorably discharged is a non-story? How do you figure?

Go read Beldar!!! He's dug up some relevant facts on the documentation used for discharges!

[Link: beldar.blogs.com...]

Pfffttttttttt......

Kerry dishonorably discharged to avoid treason trial, uses special favors to regain medals most traitors get stripped of

or

Bush skips drill weekend to watch football game with buddies

CBS feels the later headline is far more important to sderve the public interest - so much so, they forged documents to support thie rsilly inane story.

I'm sure dogface Mary Mapes is on the case!

One can speculate and add up the known facts, but we still don't know for sure how Kerry was discharged.

BUT, since Mr. Kerry refuses to release his full military records, and as, as far as I know, the ONLY person who can authorize the release of those records, IMHO he has given up the right to declare such speculation unfounded or even untrue.

So keep up the good work, bloggers!

Isn't there some patriotic soul at the Naval Personnel Office who could pull a Daniel Ellsberg here?

Can't wait to see the 60 Minutes II story that explains Kerry's discharge.........Mr. Rather, now would be a good time to show off your fair and balanced reporting practices.....(You too Tom).

Kerry's discharge was most likely a Other Than Honerable. This was a paperwork process negociated between Kerry and the powers that be. That avoided the Court Martial embarassment for the Navy and allowed Kerry to go on his way with no risk of prison time.

The story seems to explain much of why Kerry won't release his records. The discharge was given as punishment for three things: appearing before the Foreign Relations Committee; meeting in Paris with the NV / VC; involvement with the VVAW.

The conversion of the discharge to Honorable in 78 "cleaned" up his record somewhat until '85 when the balance was completed with the revised Bronze Star.

The only hope for this effort will be for Drudge to carry it. If he does not, then the story will die. OReilly will not carry this because he does not believe it to be relevent to the debate at hand. Hannity and Rush are percieved as siding with the President.

Matt, please cover the story. If you pick it up, then there is hope that the MSM will begin to investigate. Kerry refuses to accept responsibility for his actions.

If he gets a pass on this and is elected, then the citizens of our great country are in for a world of hurt.

hanoi john the traitor, better watch out because his disgrace is about to be revealed to the whole Country, hmmmmm, will he just drop out of the race in shame, and concede the Presidency to an Honorable Man, GWB, or will he continue to spout his lies, Hey maybe johnboy the ambulance chaser will heal him and make everything go away, since his secondary career has now become a healer, watch out little johnboy Oral Roberts might get a better lawyer and sue YOU.

Will Kerry's military records remain sealed forever if he doesn't sign the 180? Can they be released after his death? Will the public ever know the truth about him?

If it is revealed that John Kerry had a less than desirable discharge from his military service, does anyone think it would make any difference to the Kerry supporters?

He could have been a convicted traitor and still get 40% of the vote.

Who cares? This is not the proper way to campaign

His missing military records need to mysteriously appear in Hillary Clinton's old office. You know, like the whitewater billing records did. W can say the room must be haunted or like the Bermuda triangle.

#30 Dead Man Voting

You can't mean....do you mean....that Apollo Creed is......no--I can't say it.

Okay I'll say it: Al Gore?

JFK need not have received a less-than-honorable discharge to require a later "upgrade." The next best thing (but still, not a clean discharge) to an HD (DD-214) is a "general discharge under honorable circumstances." Very often these are upgraded later.

The GDHC is not (apparently) considered too much of a blemish. I warned a friend of mine against taking action that would result in this GDHC discharge that he'd never work for the federal government after it. Less than a year later he was working for DIA in a supersensitive role, and had not, apparently, had his GDHC upgraded to the HD.

#60 Patrizio
Your right.
You need forged documents to do it right, not missing documents.
RIGHT?

Sorry for the drive by, and I don't know if previous threads indicated as such, but...:

The first result of Googling "Honorable Discharge" is the pdf image of JfK's discharge @ www. johnkerry.com

What are the odds?

Kerry holds a pair of Aces, Bush holds a Royal Flush.

And the Johns will be most royally flushed.

Patrizio -

If Candidate A is a traitor, don't you think that Candidate B should point that out, in fact, HAS THE OBLIGATION to point that out?

#64

My point exactly. If you don't like all the bullshit about Bush's service in the National Guard, then how come you're OK will all this crap about Kerry's service? Campaigns shouldn't be about this.

#67

A traitor? You're going to have a hard time proving that. Last time I checked, it was he who fought for his county in Viet Nam, not George Bush. Yet I support the latter, because I focus on the ISSUES, not bogus investigations into each candidates' past that have no point.

# 53 Elisa

No. If his honorable discharge needed a review board to approve it at the later date, he did not have "clean paper" earlier. It's almost that simple. An honorable discharge is issued by a clerk (it bears some officer's name and signature, if I recall, but I got the feeling they had a lot of them lying about pre-signed), and it's usually issued fast. No one reviews the regular HD issuances. That a review board was needed means something's wrong.

My own example: I failed a pre-commissioning physical in 2/79 (wrecked my knee at Notre Dame). My DD-214 (Honorable Discharge) was issued from Great Lakes Naval Air Station (where I'd had the physical but where I'd otherwise had nothing going on) about a day later.

Patrizio -

My point exactly. If you don't like all the bullshit about Bush's service in the National Guard, then how come you're OK will all this crap about Kerry's service? Campaigns shouldn't be about this.

It sounds to me like you don't care whether these charges are false or true, you just wish everyone would shut up?

Am I correct?

Do you feel that voters should be fully informed about whom they are voting for, or not?

I don't know how things went in the 70's, but I got an honorable discharge from the Air Force in 1989. I was then considered "inactive reserve" meaning I did not have to drill, but I was eligible to be called up in case of need. I was put on stand-by during the 1st Gulf War but not called to active duty, and was subsequently completely released from all commitments by Pres. Clinton during the big RIF in the 90's. My point is, even if Kerry were was discharged in '72 but then went on inactive reserve, he should still have gotten an his complete discharge paperwork in whatever catagory he earned in 1972 - he wouldn't have had to wait for it until 1978 and go before a board to get it.

Patrizio
The 'campaign' didn't bring this up.
It's citizen blogger trying to find out the truth about a man who wants to be his president.
Kerry started this crap by making his 122 days in Vietnam the focus of his convention.
And meeting with the enemy during a time of war may not be treason, but I suspect the military frowns on it.

#68 Patrizio,

YES SIR TRAITOR SUPREME! I suggest that you review what he said about me and 2.5 million Vietnam Veterans in 1971, and what he said to the Senate, and how he met with the enemy to stop the war, and how he threw his phony illgotten medals away, and how he denounced his Country, with all due respect sir, you should really seek some counseling if you believe this TRAITOR is your next PRESIDENT.

#4 Geepers: See my comment on that issue here.

No, I don't care about whether the charges are true or not, first because they are irrelevant, second because they are likely to be bullshit. Why should Kerry's discharge, of all the discharges in the American military, be the one that was screwed up? You're entering conspiracy land.

If you were to come and tell me the candidate was Edward Kennedy, then yes, it mattered. The man was notoriously involved in a car crash were a young female aide died, he fled the scene without reporting it, etc. That's something that the voter NEEDS to know.

Which brings me to your last question. Of course the voter has a right to know about the candidates. But there's also privacy, there's also decency, and there's also a certain morality to campaigning.

Just like we don't like it when it comes from the Left, we shouldn't use it and pretend like we're somehow justified in doing it.

'Nam Grunt

Nice bitch slap.
Good form.
I like it, I like it!

#72

Private citizens can campaign for candidates too. Charles is campaigning, consciously or not, for Bush, and I commend him for it. Let's not pretend like we're not part of it.

#73

If he's a traitor, how come no one's seriously accused him of it? Legally, in a court or wherever. We may not like what he did or said. I don't either. But traitor is a very strong word. Also, I confess to not knowing about these meetings with the enemy you speak of. Kerry met with the Viet Minh?

#75
You don't care if it's true or not?
You don't care if Kerry has been lying to us about his vaunted military service?
If not, then you sir are the one who is irrelevant.

Kerry met with the Vietnamese representatves to the Paris Peace talks in '72 in Paris.Yes the Viet Minh and the rep from the Viet Cong.
Like we said,
TRAITOR.

#75 patrizio:

It's on this last point that you're stumbling over:

Which brings me to your last question. Of course the voter has a right to know about the candidates. But there's also privacy, there's also decency, and there's also a certain morality to campaigning.

The right to privacy does not trump the public's right to know whether the government considered Kerry's separation from service was less than honorable. If it was less than honorable or changed at some point, that would suggest that the DoD considered him deficient for some reason(s) and later decided to make the change.

Those are fair questions. They go to the heart of Kerry's credibility, his character, and his fitness to be President of the US (not to mention POTUS during a time of war when putting soldiers in harms' way).

Has he been "lying" to us? I don't think Kerry's the kind of man that would be as foolish as to try and deceive an entire country when it comes to these things. He knows the truth'd het out. The problem with Kerry is that simply he doesn't think the right way. His policies are wrong, and are bad for the USA especially considering his September 10th mentality.

No, I don't really care about what kind of discharge he got.

# 75 Patrizio:

No, I don't care about whether the charges are true or not, first because they are irrelevant,

This statement of yours just proves the danger of letting ignorant people vote in a democratic election.

#77 Patrizio,

Viet Minh?????? they disappeared after the French got their ass kicked, you better study your history, he met with represenatives of the NORTH VIETNAMESE ARMY and VIET CONG, and was a TRAITOR, go and smoke some more crack and come back when your higher.

#77 Patrizio:

Lots of people have accused Kerry of being a traitor in the common usage of the word. Whether that fits into the strict legal definition is another matter.

And yes, Lt. Kerry, while a member of the U.S. military, met, without government approval, with Viet Cong and North Vietnamese representatives in Paris. Allow me to repeat: while a member of the U.S. military.

#79

Funny, so did Henry Kissinger. What's your point?

#80

OK, suppose his discharge was less than honorable and it was for some reason changed by the Pentagon. So what?

I go back to the point I made earlier: similar questions but with far more devastating effects can be asked of Bush's service. Again, so what?

Kerry lies about everything. I bet he was hiding his whole time in 'Nam. Except for his movie parts. Kerry's not fit to be President of these nuts.

Patrizio

George Bush hasn't made his years flying fighter jets a central theme of his campaign.

John Kerry never misses an opportunity to remind people he was in Viet Nam.

If kerry got the Big Chicken Dinner or OTH, it makes a difference.

More so than if GWB missed a couple of weekends in Alabama when he was a desk jockey. And since GWB has released all his military records, we know he probably didn't even miss any weekends in Alabama.

#81 Patrizio:

You don't think that John Kerry would lie to the entire country??

One question: Do you believe that Kohn Kerry spent a Christmas on a swiftboat in Cambodia?

John, even.

I don't care...la la la la la ...I don't care...la la la la la ...

/ Fingers in ears.

Patrizio -

Just like we don't like it when it comes from the Left, we shouldn't use it and pretend like we're somehow justified in doing it.

Had the Democrats' charges that "Bush was AWOL because his Daddy pulled strings to get him into and out of the TANG" been proven to be true, that would have caused me to re-consider my support for Bush, and I can honestly say I would be glad that the charges had been aired. They would not have been "irrelevant", they would have gone to the core of the character of a man running for Commander-In-Chief.

However, the "AWOL" charges against Bush have been clearly demonstrated to be a series of distortions and fabrications. (Including the use of the word "AWOL" itself

It is not the NATURE of the "AWOL" charge that I oppose, it is their easily-demonstrated falsity.

#82

Riiightt....caring about actual issues and life-or-death policies concerning terrorism instead of bullshit stories about the candidates' service back in the 1970's. That's just being ignorant to you. You are what I call an useful idiot. You support the right cause, but probably for all the wrong reasons. You live in your little fantasy land where Kerry is the Devil himself and he must be destroyed at all costs. It would be helpful, actually, if you supported the Republicans for the right reasons. But...oh well.

#83

Viet Minh = Viet Cong

"Cong" was a dismissive term employed by the South Vietnamese to refer to "Communists". Perhaps you should look up the full name of the "Viet Cong" that you so ardently fought to learn a little history yourself. Moron.

#84

Good point. Why wasn't he prosecuted at the time?

#75 Patrizio

If you want to get indignant about nasty campaigning, check out TMF's link on post #43.

Kerry met with Madame Binh and, I believe, some other Viet minh leaders during his first honeymoon in Paris. Yes, he should have been gotten into big, big trouble for this, just as Jane Fonda should have gotten into trouble for her cozying up to the Viet cong! Unfortunately, during the 60's and 70's, our society was far too forgiving of treasonous behavior, partly because the media painted people like Kerry and Fonda as courageous young idealists. Digging up the truth, such as revealing a less than honorable discharge, is part of the necessary process of clearing away the garbage characters like Kerry have built up around themselves, to hide what they really are from world.

And, by the way, Kerry's meeting with the enemy has been known about for a long, long time! Where've you been? Trying Googling some of this stuff you don't know about!

BTW, Patrizio, supposedly one of the high ups in the kerry kids klub, when news of the SBVT first started to break, said something to the effect that it would never hurt kerry, the media was on his side.

That kerry kampaign kid was essentially correct.

kerry's kids know that kerry's lies will not be challenged by the MSM.

In a time of war, knowledge that a candidate for CinC gave aid and comfort to an enemy of his country should not be denied to the voters.

Patrizio,

Normally I like to have fun with my friends on LGF, but you sir are really pushing the envelope with me, your hanoi john the traitor is just that a TRAITOR, and POS and an SOB . If he was in actual combat then I'm Winston Churchill!

#87

Finally, someone makes a good point. Saying Kerry should be prepared to face questions on his service because he gave prominence to it is something I can agree with. But again, there are limits.

#88

Yeah, he should definitely be hanged for that. So he was a short way from the border, one side of the other. Big deal.

#91

I am not fully familiar with the details of the questions asked by each side of the other's candidate. I think it has been established that Bush missed a phsyical test or something like that, and that he left earlier. Maybe not. WHO CARES?

Bush was also a raging alcoholic and a lousy businessman. Yet he's going to be remembered as one of the most important Presidents in history. I think most people arguing in favor of drilling deeper and deeper into the minutiae of the candidate's past are missing the point.

Patrizio:

All Kerry has to do is release all of his records.

Maybe it's not a big deal. Maybe it is.

Bush told the Pentagon, "What you find, you display".

He can't be held responsible for his documents showing up now and again. To force the Pentagon to find his docs "Now!!!" would be an abuse of power.

Supposedly the government has lots of Kerry docs. They don't need to be found, they know where they are.
All Kerry has to do is approve their disclosure.

No one is manufacturing memos. We just want to see
all of them.

While I don't like Kerry, I really don't think there is a smoking gun here. But, one does wonder what he's hiding.

Where's Iron Fist when 'ya need him?

#92 Patrizio: No one was prosecuted for such activity at the time. The war was unpopular and Kerry was at the head of a powerful political movement and a media darling. That doesn't change the fact that, while a member of the U.S. military (and while drawing a check from the U.S. military), he went, on his own, to negotiate with the enemies of the United States. Of course, that wasn't close to being the worst thing that he did, which was the direct betrayal and smearing of of the men that he served with, including the fallen who had no voice with which to defend themselves.

#93

Using that argument, I could say Bush was shielded from all kinds of investigations and damage from the press because of who his father was. You know who else uses that argument? Michael Moore in Fahrenheit 9/11.

So maybe Kerry wasn't the ideal Viet Nam veteran. Just like Bush isn't the ideal man. Digging more and more into these military records won't change a thing. Bush avoided the war, Kerry didn't. Kerry disgraced himself after the war and is now paying for it. Bush played it quietly and is now reaping the rewards.

#94

Aid and comfort? Also, I agree the media is tilted towards Kerry.

#95

You're just pissed off because you're full of shit and I called you down on it.

#96 Patrizio:

Define "short way from the border." Let's make this really simple for you:

1. Yes or no: Did Kerry repeatedly and publicly claim (including at least once on the floor of the U.S. Senate)that he spent the Christmas of 1968 in Cambodia during a secret mission to ferry CIA operatives into that country?

2. Yes or no: Do you believe that he told the truth when he repeatedly made those claims?

3. Yes or no: If he knowingly didn't tell the truth, was he lying?

#98 sefton,

Workin on a G-d-damned RTF .Net control. What do you need me for?

:-P

#97

I agree with that position. I don't agree with this conspiracy-minded obsession of trying to magically prove that Kerry was a covert operative for the Vietnamese.

#99

I believe you, but it's very hard to prove. No one was prosecuted...Kerry miraculously above the law...parallel negotiations.... it's just not good material. Otherwise, the Bush campaign would've seized on it.

Before I answer, I'll say again that I only read about this briefly and some time ago:

1. Yes

2. Yes

3. Yes

I think Kerry was on a mission to do whatever it was pretty close to the border with Cambodia. I think he thought he was on the Cambodian side of the border, and that's why he said he was. In his mind, it wasn't a lie. Just like Bush didn't lie when he said he was sure Iraq had WMD, after Tenet had told him it was a slam dunk case. It's not a lie if you believe it.

#68 Patrizio....

See wintersoldier.com

The cover of his book is all I need to stand behind when I call him the scum of the earth.

#105

Other posters would say the "spirit of the times" explains such a cover

100

You think Dan Rather et al would lay off investigating GWB because of his father?

What planet do you come from?

Patrizio

as a DS vet, I admonish you to refrain from your assault on Nam Grunt. As the name implies, he is a Nam vet, not a skimmer, mind you, and ground pounder! He has ssen a lot more than me ( i was air-assault, and in the Sh%t as well)! He was THERE when JFnK started what would have been tried in the 50's as treason. It is an emotional issue...very emotional! I don't know if you're old enough to remember, but what he and Fonda did actually directly caused the deaths of some POW's!

Please respect the sacrifice of ground troups who have been in battle...

Well obviously this is those ol "wascawy wepubwicans" again! Elmer Fudd has more sense than most of these dimwitted nimrods.

Has this jackass done anything right? Anything worthwhile? Anything really worth mentioning that was good or positive?

nah! didn't think so

/sarcasm off

#107

You think the American Judiciary or the military courts did not prosecute John Kerry back then because...they didn't feel like it? Because it was cool to be against the war? Because Kerry was so stealthy that they did not notice him?

What planet do you come from?

#92 Patrizio

Jeekers, Patrizio, what are the "right" reasons for supporting the Republicans? Can you tell us, Oh Mighty all-wise Guru, and lead us to the true light?

John Kerry met with enemy leaders while he was still in the military, without governmental approval. He had no authority to discuss, or negotiate, anything with these guys. His actions were treasonous. If you can't, or won't, understand this---too bad.

Furthermore, he was a prominant member of the anti-war movement. He accused his brothers in arms (while they were still fighting over there) of performing horrible atrocities in Vietnam---atrocities which, he claimed, were approved at the highest levels of government! He co-authored a book, "The New Soldier," wherein supposed vets (many of whom later turned out to be fakers) told horror stories about how evil Uncle Sam turned them into monsters.

Kerry, and the movement he was part of, played a large part in causing America to pull out of Vietnam---leaving the Vietnamese to the tender mercies of the Cong (yeah, I'm gonna call them that.) Vietnamese communist leaders have praised the anti-war movement for helping them defeat America; they've got Kerry's picture in a museum over there. He should have been prosecuted for what he did. I wish he had been. But, whether he was or not, his actions were treasonous. He was working against America.

Now we're in a war against Islamofacism. Kerry, G-d help us, might become our next president. So, yes, I say we ask him all sorts of uncomfortable questions and, if there's any dirt on him, we dig it out. This guy has gotten away with far too much, and the MSM has covered for him.

I think Kerry was on a mission to do whatever it was pretty close to the border with Cambodia. I think he thought he was on the Cambodian side of the border

So he's not a liar, just a bumbling idiot?

#104 Patrizio

The salient fact about the Christmas in Cambodia tale is not the precise geography. It is that Kerry USED the tale as an example of the gov't ordering him to do something illegal, and that the truth about his potential death would be denied.

Read his "seared, just seared" speech. Note that this is quite beside the point that beleiving that Kerry thought he was in Cambodia on Christmas is a bit of a stretch, given that going into Cambodia would have been a big deal not just for him, but for everyone else, and NO ONE is comoing forward and saying "Hey! I thought we were in Cambodia too!"

Saying that his Cambodia tale is like Bush (and every other Western government) trusting faulty intelligence is (to be maximally polite) a "loose parallel".

#110 Patrizio:

You weren't an adult back in the late 60's/ early 70's, were you? Even Jane Fonda, who gave aid and comfort in the most public way possible, wasn't prosecuted. Being anti-American was about as cool (and safe) then as it is now.

#108

MY assault??? He insulted me first!

I know it's an emotional issue, but I don't like it when some person comes to me thinking that just because he fought there he's better than me. It's exactly what Kerry does! He did not know about the different names for the Viet Minh, and tried to blast ME for it.

I respect every man that serves in the military, including John Kerry. I think many here are applying a double standard.

#100 Patrizio,

Im full of s**T??????? , that's laughable, have you even served this Country?, I doubt it, not once in any intelligence briefing during my two tours in 'Nam did I ever hear the word Viet Minh come up, describing the enemy force we were about to vaporize on the present mission we were about to embark on. There were many high ranking officers present during these briefings, some Special Forces, some, well one or two CIA, and then us lowly grunt LRRP Teams, that were actually going to carry out the intel search (6 of us in the middle of all of THEM), to get to my point all I ever heard was North Vietnamese Regulars and high ranking VC, not Viet Minh.

Cut to the chase...anyone who hates Bush so much as to vote for those two clowns is in serious need of professional help.

Kerry is the wrong person, at the wrong time, in the wrong
country! Now today's France.....maybe.

A

The question of why wasn't Kerry charged with any crime in the 1970's - if I recall, wasn't his father an ambassador or something - come on his family had money – even before he went and marries all those heiresses!

As for lying, remember Kerry has been plotting his rise to POTUS since before Viet Nam. True in his mind, everything he says is true – trouble is the facts that we have seen – don’t prove his words correct.

Release all military records – sign the 180!

I'm sorry, Patrizio. If you think that ANYONE could have accidentally thought that they snuck over a heavily guarded border when they didn't you're just being wilfully blind. If you think that Kerry is telling the truth than you have to believe that Kerry was ordered into Cambodia (he says that he was, but not by whom), didn't quite make it there as a result of pure idiocy, and dropped off a CIA man who was supposed to be in Cambodia ... IN VIETNAM ... and then was shot at by what he thought were drunk Cambodian troops but who were actually ... what, exactly? ANd has ANYONE "on his boat" come forward to say that they also thought that they were in or heading to Cambodia? A single person? No? Why do you suppose that is.

If you can't see that Kerry lied about this and did so, repeatedly, for specific political gain and to gain the political high ground in key debates, then I'm sorry, you are beyond help.

I respect my service in Vietnam, and those i served with.. except people like j.kerry. him i have no respect for. I will vist the White House fence if hes elected.. and send my medals ribbons and a note of protest over that famous fence. i expect that will be a violation of law.. and i will land in jail.. my VA disablity payment will continue while i'm in jail.. i don't expect the media to ever report it. or to report it the wrong slant..

#104 Patrizio,

I think he thought he was on the Cambodian side of the border, and that's why he said he was. In his mind, it wasn't a lie.

For the sake of argument, let me stipulate this. Now tell me, was Kerry so fucking incompetent that he didn't really know where he was in a war zone vis-à-vis Neutral borders, or did he think he was unilaterally (and without written orders) invading a Neutral Country by himself?

Remember, we weren't at war with Cambodia.

If Kerry hadn't made Vietnam the sole point of his campaign (oh, there is the mysterious Plan, but I doubt sKerry knows what it is any more than any of the rest of us), it wouldn't really matter. But if he is going to ask the voters to ignore his Senate record, ignore the fact that he is basically a gigolo, and ignore his outright treason after he came back from Vietnam, then the fact that he didn't even know what country he was in when he admittedly committed war crimes is pretty damning, don't you think?

After all, if he thought he was in Cambodia at Christmas, he might have thought he was in Vietnam when he was burning a village, and really been in Cambodia. Or Laos.

Maybe Thailand, or even Texas.

Please.

Maybe you really believe your spin, but I doubt it. You don’t strike me as being that stupid.

Oh, and all Kerry has to do to settle this definitively is release his records. Have you ever asked yourself why, if he has nothing to hide, he doesn’t just step on the snake’s head, as it were, and just do it?

#110 Patrizio

As we all know of course, media clout and popularity have nothing at all to do with how, and if, a popular celebrity gets charged, and convicted of something. This is why O.J. Simpson is in jail today.

/Sarc. :>)

What planet do YOU come from, Patrizio?

If anybody had tried to get Fonda, or Kerry, for anything back then---good Lord, you could practically draw the political cartoons yourself! (Pigs in military uniforms and judicial robes nailing handsome young Jesus-Kerry to a cross! Jane Fonda, as Barbarella, defending cute Vietnamese children from Blue meanies, blah, blah, blah. . . )

You can practically write the editorials, too: bold young Vietnam protestor, railroaded because he dares to speak the TRUTH, blah, blah, blah. . .

thanks JAT

there it is Patrizio...all he has to do is be a man and sign the form 180....aren't you the least bit skeptical when someone fails to disclose?

Patrizio -

Amen, brother.

I respect everyone who served in the US Military since the beginning, including Benedict Arnold and Col. Calley.

I'm beginning to think Patrizio is a Republican the same way that Nodrog is.

I'm beginning to think he's just mad that we dare to criticize the wonderful Ketchup King.

#124 Frank IBC:

Oh, if only he were alive today ... Kerry/Arnold '04!! Eggs and Ketchup!!!

I think Patrizio is the one who writes Andrew Sullivan's "E-Mails of the Day".

More Mustard Smears on the Ketchup King...

...tsk...tsk...

/Gordon

mmmm .... Barbarella ....

Ah, Why not?

Patrizio,

You point is a bad one: we should only worry about what an asshat Kerry is NOW.

The obvious rejoinder is that Kerry's idiotic puffery and despicable lying is a character trait not easily unlearned.

The reason his lying about Cambodia (and his h.d) is important now is that it shows a lifetime of arrogance and untruthfulness.

# 118 JAT

You're absolutely right about the early campaigning thing. I was in a meeting with a Yale classmate of Kerry's this a.m. He stated that Kerry was running for president even then at Yale. He was, I think the word was, "priggish" and trying to do all the right things to have the right record/resume.

John Kerry did nothing in the U.S. Senate (I've watched him for 20 years here in D.C., and been involved with some of his pet programs that he has allowed to die for lack of follow up). There is no reason to believe this "hero" won't just sit on his butt for 4 years as POTUS. Those of you who disagree with his positions (to the extent they are ascertainable) should take some comfort from this if he's elected.

Me, I'll take the avowed sinner who's now trying to do the best he can and surrounding himself with tough, smart bastards to help him. We don't need a prig who's planned on being President since he left his prep school.

#128 Frank IBC

I did a photoshop on that pic a while ago.

No, I'm not very good. Thanks for noticing. dB^þ

#111

Certainly: taking the war to the radical Islamic enemy, shrinking the role of the government in the economy, supporting the right moral causes such as being against abortion, promoting Democracy and Liberalism abroad, do you need more?

If we're gonna discuss Kerry, why not focus more on his twenty years in the Senate? If you, like others, say many things that happened around the time Kerry became an anti-war fanatic are explained precisely because of the polarization the war caused, then can't Kerry's actions be justified as that? Because that's certainly valid given the arguments you are using.

#112

For not knowing, in the middle of the night, on a boat in a river, with all the nerves a covert military operation puts on you, on what side of an unmarked border he was? Oh, certainly, only a complete imbecile would not tell the difference between Cambodia and Viet Nam. After all, I'm sure there was a huge fence with a clearly marked "CAMBODIA/VIET NAM" sign neatly set up for the American soldiers to see. And we all know covert operations into a country begin only after they are publicly announced.

#113

I'll have to find that speech. As for the points you make, I think they are valid. Kerry was clearly using a supposed covert and illegal operation to blast Nixon, if I recall. Who wasn't even President at the time of said operation. What that tells you about his character is that he is an OPPORTUNIST, seizing on a dubious fact (or non-fact) to advance his political cause. THAT is something worth studying. But it's different from what's been discussed so far (treason, aiding the Vietnamese, being evil incarnate, etc. etc.)

#114

I am aware of all that. I just think saying the military didn't prosecute Kerry because it wasn't cool, even if true, sounds as convincing as saying nobody dug up the stuff on Bush because his father was Senator/DCI/President.

#116

So? I can quote from the Osprey Military book I have right here. Or you can Google it up yourself. The full name of the "Viet Cong" had "Viet Minh" in it, and a bunch of other words. Seriously.

#119

I said I wasn't familiar with all the details. I'm not pretending to know everything here. I'm applying common sense. I don't have a problem with conceding that yes, perhaps he lied on the Cambodia thing. What I'm disputing is the relevance this has on the campaign. A man's past rarely has relevance on his performance in public office. Hitler was a war hero. Bush was a mediocre businessman and an alcoholic. Castro was educated by Jesuits. The list goes on.

#121

OK, excellent post there. I agree, he should release his records. But I don't think it's OK to assume the worst out of somebody only because he's your political opponent. My obvious problem with so many people here is that I don't automatically hate Kerry because he's my political enemy. I don't think that just because he thinks differently his biography magically becomes a horror tale of mischief and evil doing. I'm just not that stupid.

#122

It's the same reason why International Solidary/ANSWER/Indymedia types aren't arrested. But I think better of the American government, even during Viet Nam. If a man betrays his country, usually he's prosecuted. I don't know if Kerry was that much of a star that he could get away with all these things. In any case, it's beyond the point.

#123

I am, and I agree.

If hanoi john the traitor is elected President, then I want to go on record saying here to all of my friends on this blog, that I will move to Austrailia where they believe in True Leaders, and freedom, not like asshats as patrizio seems to portray himself, (I hope they can hook me up with a puter connection). I'll still receive my VA benefits for 100% disability, for wounds suffered in Vietnam and my youngest child will still receive his benefits from VA to complete his college education. GO GWB!

#134

Right. I don't believe in true leadership or freedom.

Patrizio -

My obvious problem with so many people here is that I don't automatically hate Kerry because he's my political enemy.

Wonderful, you have my position EXACTLY BASS-ACKWARDS.

I hated him long before he was my "political enemy".

For not knowing, in the middle of the night, on a boat in a river, with all the nerves a covert military operation puts on you, on what side of an unmarked border he was? Oh, certainly, only a complete imbecile would not tell the difference between Cambodia and Viet Nam. After all, I'm sure there was a huge fence with a clearly marked "CAMBODIA/VIET NAM" sign neatly set up for the American soldiers to see. And we all know covert operations into a country begin only after they are publicly announced.

If he was fifty YARDS from the border, and if other sailors on his boat thought they had gone across the border, your statement might be reasonable.

But he was not fifty yards from the border, he was fifty MILES from it, and no other person on his boat has claimed they crossed it.

I will move to Austrailia where they believe in True Leaders

Or Afghanistan.

#137 Frank IBC,

Austrailia is much better, went there on R&R during Vietnam, but I was a bit hasty I would never leave this Great Country, Patrizio just pissed me off.

Regarding #105's comment regarding the DISGUSTING cover of Kerry's book, "Winter Soldier:"

#106 Patrizio writes:
Other posters would say the "spirit of the times" explains such a cover.

Well, you see, there's this little problem that Flag Desecrator Kerry wants to be CINC. Does that distinction escape you? If not, WHAT are you thinking? DO you?

Kerry MOCKED our country's Stars and Stripes, and did so with his FLAG MOCKING PICTURE, on the COVER of his FLAG and COUNTRY MOCKING book, that he MASS PRODUCED for SALE/PROFIT.

CINC? I. Don't. Think. So.

A more fitting goal for Kerry would be to do something FAR, FAR AWAY from this country's HONORABLE, flag HONORING Military. His friends from the cover of his book could maybe help him find employment in their trades--OR--he could DENOUNCE his FLAG DESECRATION (and apologize to the MULTITUDE of HONORABLE PATRIOTS that he called BABY KILLERS and RAPISTS.)

Ya think?

133 patrizio

Like your response to 121, except the "stupid" part. It brings to light the gist of your hostility. I understand that to you, a political enemy may not necesarily be a mortal enemy. That may be well and good for you, but after 9/11 we all (I knew all along that the Crausades ARE going to happen again...mos;ems don't give up!) became accutely aware that there are people who are out to wipe us from the face of the earth! They cannot be negotiated with. Having said that, I think many of us were actually more comfortable with screamin' Howard as a possible Dem candidate! His was an honest approach..."Hey...I'm a lib". you know where you stand. Now we have a man who has had a life of priviledge, trying to say he is a common man: a man with an overtly liberal record,trying to say he'll cut taxes: A man who historically LOATHES the military and intelligence communities, saying he will protect us. It's inflammatory and it insults the intelligence of those conservatives who do take people for face value...it makes us think that he'll do anything to further himself...including selling his countrymen down the river! That, my friend, is why it is past political animous....

Let me get this right.

1. Kerry gets discharged in 1978 by a board?
2. Kerry gets a pardon by Carter(Democrat).
3. Kerry's awards are re-issued all again on the same date?

Hmm, something fishy here. Where there is smoke there is usually fire.

Where is the MSM on this?

That Chad guy did make a threat and it was clear as day.

An open letter:

Sen. Kerry,

I am a President Bush supporter.

Sign the form 180 releasing ALL of your military records. If all was/is as you have represented, I will vote for you. Note that I reside in a swing state.

/sound of nothing happening

Thought not!

Nam & Frank

ok guys, did I do an Ok job of articulating the issue? Thought it was necessary, because it looks as though Patrizio is actually anti-Kerry, which means we have something in common. I think it was important to state why some conservatives loathe sKerry more than libs loathe W...

Here's the thing about Cambodia, Patrizio:

He didn't just say this in the 70's, a generation ago ... he said it repeatedly, over many years, including in his direct capacity as a Senator in the United States Senate, on the rcord, on the Senate floor, to win a political argument. This wasn't in the 60's or 70's. Or is what Kerry has done as a Senator also not relevant?

#144 pax,

You did good buddy!, I know I'm not a college grad, but I do know what war is about and the after effects as to the way people think after they have been in one, as you know as well being a Combat Vet, but some people fail to realize that what you hear or read in books is not the same, am I being stupid? I mean I read quite a bit on the net about things that have happened in history but I think it is more important to base your opinions on the the real thing.

146 Nam

amen, my brother...amen...

#136 & #145

OK, maybe he did not go into Cambodia. Even if he did, as I said before, he used that alleged fact to advance his political aspirations. I think that's the main point of the Cambodia issue. However, I don't think Kerry decided out of the blue to make up a Cambodia story to impress the people and the audiences. Call me naive if you will, but I think he simply exaggerated or misrepresented a true story, perhaps 50 miles from the border as you say.

#139

The cover of a book means the man can't be Commander In Chief? Who's thinking with their head here? You don't even know if Kerry himself picked that cover, your argument is just untenable.

#140

You mixed a bunch of things together. I was talking exclusively about Kerry. Yeah, I don't like him. I completely oppose his policies. He is my political enemy. But I don't go about questioning his entire biography because of it.
It has nothing to do with the cleansing that must be done in Africa and Asia of vast parts of the dictatorial establishments, the clergy, the education curricula, the Madrassas, the critical parts of Islam that promote Jihad, etc.
I agree with you on Dean being a better candidate, and I'm glad Bush pointed out recently how Kerry and Edwards became anti-war once Dean fired up that crowd. It was a great, perfectly valid and appropiate attack on Kerry's political opportunism, which is the true mark of his career.

#144

Of course I am, but I think our cause should do better than lunatic conspiracy theories, blatant slander and scare tactics. I think the goals should be advanced for what they are. Democracy and Liberalism abroad. Reforming Islam. Reducing the role of the State in the economy. Advancing free trade policies in international forums. Cutting subsidies. So on and on. Not focusing on Kerry the traitor, Hanoi John, and all that silly crap.

Somebody help me!! My wife is making me watch Mr. Holland's Opus!

The National Archives and Records Administration, who has Kerry's records locked up pending his signature, offers a

149 Thom

ROFLMAO....you're a good guy but you're on your own on that one....good luck...take a nap...

well Patrizio, what about the people who won't vote for

Democracy and Liberalism abroad. Reforming Islam. Reducing the role of the State in the economy. Advancing free trade policies in international forums. Cutting subsidies.

but will vote against someone who lies habitually to make themselves look better?

Just write off those voters? Not everyone here is conservative (I am, but that's not even true of our host). If you want to succeed on the WoT, you have to recognize that in politics, playing dirty is playing to win. And if you can get someone to vote agains tthe other guy, then that's sometimes enough.

This is a close election, and kerry's military record is an important issue (mainly because he himself made it one).

Oh, and Kerry didn't make up Cambodia out of the blue, he watched Apocalypse Now.

Seriously, though, it was another example of lying for puffery, and that's not a good trait in a President.

as soon as Patrizio mentions globular clusters or gay fruit flies, I'm out of here

152

I'm not writing them off, I said they are useful because they vote for Bush. It should come as no surprise that I'd like everybody to support the causes I support. Just like everybody else does.

Voting to counter another candidate is not the best way to vote. Valid, but potentially wasted.

#148 Patrizio,

Here I go again, I was a Drill Sergeant for six years between tours in Vietnam, and in Basic Training you are taught how to read a map. I would think that an officer would definately know how to read one, (WE HAD MAPS OVER THERE), nevertheless, I as a Platoon Sergeant had to be the one to call in gunships for support, with my forward observer RTO (radio telephone operator), to get us out of the s**t when we made contact, because my dumba** Lt. didn't trust himself, (reminds me of the way hanoi john would have reacted), I can only speak of actually being in a combat situation, again, I highly doubt from what I've read that hanoi john was ever in one, and it's been said that he ran when the firefight started, just like the coward and liar he is.

#155

He was awarded a bunch of medals.

It'd be interesting to read more about your experience in Viet Nam, I always find those fascinating.

#155 'Nam Grunt

So what do sergeants think of their "dumbass lieutenants"? It must be an interesting relationship.

#133 Patrizio

Why is it beside the point?

And, never mind the cover---take a look at what "The New Soldier" actually says inside it! You think a guy who co-authors a book like that should be in charge of America's military?

#156 Patrizio,

Like I said I was just a regular Grunt, as were thousands like me, just doing the job we were trained to do, I want no accolades nor do I accept them. I tell the truth about my experiences (unlike hanoi john does), because I know what it's like to see GOOD FRIENDS die, and then have to put them in a poncho for the final trip home, just as our Brave Men are experiecing in Iraq, but, that is war and it's horrible. No one person can even realize what it's like unless they have experienced it.

#158

We were discussing how Kerry didn't catch any flak for his activities immediately after the war. You, or someone else, were saying that he managed to get by because the political climate of the time shielded him. I find it to be a weak argument, but probably true. My saying it's besides the point is that we could discuss the details of that forever without contributing anything to the discussion whether paying all this attention to Kerry's military documents is really worth it.

As for the book, I haven't read it at all. I might, though. It's probably garbage.

#159

I bet you've been asked tons of times if you ever killed anyone

re #119, who says--

"I'm sorry, Patrizio. If you think that ANYONE could have accidentally thought that they snuck over a heavily guarded border when they didn't you're just being wilfully blind."

The CAMBODIAN border was heavily guarded?

By snakes and mosquitos, maybe.

It's fine to attack Kerry for his foolishness, but you don't have to leave your brain at the door.

Thom you know as I know that there were "goofys" as Lt's in 'Nam just as there were stupid NCO's, and Privates, shall I go on, I was just relating a story as to the Lt. that happened to be assigned to our Platoon, I did serve with some great officers in nam, one of my CO's was a West Point Grad. one of the greatest leaders on earth as far as I'm concerned. Capt. Vic Alliffi.

Actually the border WAS guarded (several miles downriver) - by AMERICAN GIs who made damn sure none of their own accidentally crossed it.

#163 'Nam Grunt

Hmm ... I guess I didn't put my question too well.

I mean, how does a sergeant with 10+ years experience deal with / feel about a freshly minted Lt.? How long does it typically take for them to get on their feet? I was juts trying to get a feel for that relationship.

#162 Davidslott

On what basis do you assume that the most likely crossing points - particularly rivers / canals - weren't being watched and guarded?

Fact these items - prior to the formal US incursion into Cambodia - there were regular formal complaints from the Cambodian Government to the US and South Vietnam over any and all discovered incursions across their "neutral" border. The US and ARVN forces were under restricted ROE for most of the war - and some of the heaviest restrictions were in the vacinity of the border - that is why the VC and NVA found camps within 15 miles of the border (inside Cambodia) points of safety to rearm, requip, and plan new attacks in the South.

If the US or ARVN forces did pursue across the border - the Cambodian Govt would scream bloody murder - and the activists against the war would grasp onto these as attempts to expand the war.

Did excursions / border violations take place? Yes. But then we have 254 people, including all of the senior chain of command saying no, Kerry wasn't there, with Kerry being the only one saying he was.....so, what is it - 254 liars and 1 person telling the truth?

Also did you ever consider if there were any viable reports of a Swift Boat being at the border when not being by the sea (as O'Neill was over a year later when the mission was interdicting transport from Cambodia into South Vietnam)? Isn't it more logical a smaller, quieter boat like a PBR be used for a mission like that?

#162 Davidslott:

Let's see if I can find my brain ... Here is what John O'Neill, who was there (you were there, right?), said about the Cambodia/Vietnam border:

O' NEILL: Oh, absolutely. First of all, Kerry's story, on more than 50 occasions on the floor of the Senate, and on more than 50 different occasions in interviews as recently as last summer, was that the turning point of his life was that he had undergone this deal where he had been illegally ordered into Cambodia at Christmastime--Christmas Eve and Christmas Day. Sometimes he says [it was the] "turning point of his life." As a matter of fact, Kranish, his biographer, on Hannity and Colmes described this as the turning point of [Kerry's] life. . . . The guy in command of him at that point in time was a man named Joseph Streuhli and then the chain of command would have run up ultimately to Admiral Hoffmann and then Admiral Zumwalt, who's dead. We checked with Joseph Streuhli to ensure that there was never anything like that occurring. We also know that it's a lie independent of those comments in the following two ways. In the book Tour of Duty, Kerry is placed safely in Sa-Dec, some 50 miles from the Cambodian border, writing a letter, in his words, with visions of sugarplums in his head. Second, we know he wasn't in Cambodia that Christmas Eve because everyone familiar with the entire operation series knows that the PCF, the Swift Boat areas, stopped just north of Sa-Dec, some 50 miles from the border. The areas further north were PBRs--smaller boats--and that the border was heavily guarded to ensure that nobody could go across it.

Is the border within the Mekong Delta, or is it actually on the discrete channel of the river.

O' NEILL: It's on the discrete channel of the river in that area, directly between Cambodia on the one side and Vietnam on the other, and there were gunboats anchored right there to stop anybody from going over.

There were navy gunboats anchored in the Mekong River Channel, through which a Swift Boat would have to pass.

O' NEILL: Yes. It would have been apprehended 30 miles before. But [the gun boats] were placed there because in 1967 some drunken Army guys actually went up that river and were interned in Cambodia. And so to avoid future incidents, those gunboats were placed there. And we checked with the commander of those gunboats, whose name is Tom Anderson. He's also in the book.

Did he say that no Swift Boats went by his post?

O' NEILL: Yes. The significance of "Christmas in Cambodia" is that he accused every single fellow officer--I mean every superior--of a war crime in crossing an international boundary illegally. He painted himself as a hero among villains. He said it was the turning point of his whole life many times--how many people fake the turning point of their life?

Ah, here's my brain. Where's yours?

#161 Patrizio,

Actually. I never talk to anyone about 'nam except other Vets that have been there. I mean I don't walk around bragging about my service like some phonies do in bars and where ever, but I do talk about it here because this is a place where I belong and lately it has helped me to express my deep feelings about how we were treated, I mean like we were satan revisited, I was spit on in SF Iinternational Airport on my initial return from my first tour, wouldn't that anger you?

#165 Thom

That's a good question to pose.

I was taught, and reinforced in exercises - to really reach out and listen / learn from my senior NCO's - but was also more than a little concerned to not delegate too much to them in order to maintain my authority. The good NCO's that I had - made sure that I didn't.

The not so good NCO's basically never warned me from the "land mines" and "gotchas" in time - so the school of hard knocks had me looking to replace them if / when I could.

Company level NCO's also kept a close eye on us newbies.......the officers ones that had trouble were the ones who didn't listen to those NCO's and tried to by Mr. Popular to the troops.

re #162:
By snakes and mosquitos, maybe.

Do you know nothing of the multitude of just under-surface pylons, booby-traps, etc., in the river? Snakes and mosquitos? Do some reading on this.

Kerry has boasted numerous times over the years of secret nighttime missions into Cambodia with CIA, SEALS, Green Berets, and in ammo-ferrying. Not ONE of his boatmates or members of chain of command back him on ANY of it. Kerry's boat had full US Military markings and was a very loud twin dieseled inboard that even IDLED loudly. Clandestine CIA missions? Kerry had basically just gotten in country. WOW.

Maybe you could tell us about his secret missions? What do you know of them? How do explain Kerry's claims?

#165 Thom,

I had a Lt. on my first tour while serving on a LRRP Team that was outstanding because he was full of piss and vinegar as we were, but he was a Ranger grad and he knew his stuff (goes back to the training received), on my second tour I was assigned to an Infantry Company as a Platoon Sergeant, in the 1st Cavalry Division, 2/5th Infantry, C company, 1972, and it was much different, but we as NCO's learned how to deal with ROTC Lt.'s some were good but had to be re-trained because ROTC training was sub par in my opinion, but to answer your question I as a whole had some great LT.'s

This was just a routine review to determine who should be retained in the reserves and who should be separated. Since Kerry wasn't participating in the reserves he was discharged. There is nothing remarkable about this. There is no indication that a previous discharge was upgraded.

I do agree that Kerry should sign his SF 180.

By the way, only a court martial can issue a bad conduct or dishonorable discharge.

#172,

Glad you said that I was going to state the same thing, that is a fact.

#172

This was just a routine review to determine who should be retained in the reserves and who should be separated. Since Kerry wasn't participating in the reserves he was discharged. There is nothing remarkable about this. There is no indication that a previous discharge was upgraded.

That also is plausible - .....but then, why the mystery and lack of information for Kerry's reserve participation in 71 and 72 - at least of the 15 days / annually of active duty he was required to perform?

Why the re-issue of his medals in 1985 - why was it needed?

What about the fact that the review board took place in 1977-8 and not in 1972 when the 6 year commitment was up?

It's past time to sign Form 180.

You know Lee Harvey Oswald had his Honorable discharge reversed administratively to an "undesirable" discharge a year after he left active duty in the Marines while a member of the inactive reserves for act committed as a civilian.

I was wondering why Kerry won't release all his records, you guys may be on to something.

#174 -- The Navy was just clearing out its excess reserve officers. There was no need to keep Kerry on the rolls.

Don't get me wrong, I'm very suspicious about Kerry not signing the SF180. I suspect he doesn't want people to find out who arranged some of his medals.

Patri

I'm not going to impugn your motives or your background. I would just like some straight answers:

Kerry based his convention and campaign on his service record. yet refuses to release his military records, why?

I wonder why you aren't curious about the Form 180. Why aren't you concerned about what he might be concealing?

He could put all of us back in the box and bury us if he only would sign the release. Can you think of a possible scenario where a man who wants to lead our country would want to hide something about his military record?

When Bush was blindsided by the DUI revelation on the weekend before the 2000 election, what was his response? He immediately confronted it and had all records released. Shouldn't Kerry be held to the same level of accountability?

Regards

Here are a couple of pages that hold some other dimensions to this issue:

Page 1

Page 2

These pages indicate changes to his record as late as 1986. I believe that even if the "official record" is changed, the complete record will still contain any previous iterations that were subsequently "changed." Hence, one could say "I have provided the official record" and get away with it while knowing the skeleton is still in the closet. Obviously, Kerry is unwilling to tell the whole truth and has decided that releasing the complete record would cost him more votes than he could possibly gain by coming clean. It seems, then, that this trail leads to a rather damning conclusion.

Is anyone else amazed John F-nuanced, Kerry became the lead candidate to challenge George W. Bush? Is it possible -- that he's bought his way into every opportunity he's ever had, & when finding Terezah (coincidentally, born into a dictatorship nation), saw an even greater opportunity to fund his future endeavors?

His 20-year, anemic record in the Senate here in Mass. is miserable. AND, he only points to 4 months (!!) in Vietnam as his greatest accomplishment? & now his military records may come forth, thanks to the bloggers -- followed, I hope, by the mainstream media -- pre-election, revealing his TRUE character.

Perhaps Dan Ra^ther could do the "fair & balanced" thing, and see what's in Kerry's hidden records!!!! That might even exonerate the pressure on him. Mary Mapes, get to work.

This election is truly a vote for/ or against Western Civilization. VOTE!!

Hmmmm...hopefully it will be revealed that St. Jimmuh was involved in some hanky-panky in this affair..Inshallah...

The bottom line, folks, is that we'll never know. Kerry will NEVER sign form 180. In any event, nothing is likely to come out before 11/2/04 and by then it'll either be too late or it won't matter.

BTW, when is Kerry due to run for re-election in the Senate?

#11 Chuck Pelto - You are of course correct. After Vietnam there was a extreme RIF (Reduction in Force). It seems likely that, at that time being involved heavily in the national Democrat Party and, I believe, married to his first wife (also lots of money) it would not be unusual for Kerry to be discharged.

However, only Kerry's release of his entire military file can provide satisfactory answers. This article puts the burden square on Kerry's shoulders.
PS - Why haven't the MSM pushed harder, MUCH harder for a release of Kerry's ENTIRE military records?

This story is most certainly a red herring. The situation reported on describes the normal process of being removed from the Inactive Reserve rolls after an officer was placed on them during separation. Sorry folks, there is really nothing to see here.

Better to attack Kerry on those things we KNOW about him rather than what we SUSPECT.

#30 Dead Man Voting - back to your meds young man! If GWB loses, he won't be the candidate in 08.

#184 scarykerry

NEW SWIFTEE ADD OUT. AWESOME:

[Link: humaneventsonline.com.edgesuite.net...]

#44 Thom - for some reason your Sinclair link doesn't work for me. Is there a station that reaches NYC that the show will be on, and if so, when.
You know how I feel about Kerry and how much I feel for MY band of brothers so any help would be appreciated.
Thanks.

73 'Nam Grunt - what you said! When I returned home I too was antiwar. But only because I KNEW we wouldn't win doing it the way we were and I didn't want any more of my brothers killed for no good reason. To speak so traitorously of us is more than galling, unfair, or political opportunism.
It is a call to meet me, still recovering from my accident in an alley (dark or lit, doesn't matter to me). To lie so outrageously about so many of us is an insult which cannot be tolerated. AT ALL.

#99 Jehka "the worst thing that he did, which was the direct betrayal and smearing of of the men that he served with, including the fallen who had no voice with which to defend themselves. '

That is, of course, the unpardonable sin. I'm willing to forgive him for meeting with the Viet Cong and NVA in a foolish attempt to end the war (oh, by the way Patrizio "Cong" means communist; "Minh" means nationalist. So saying, as we frequently did, "Cha Cong" meant kill the commies, saying "Cha Minh" would've meant kill those who want a united Vietnam.) But the way he blasphemed the rest of us is unpardonable and unforgivable. EVER.

Patrizio - "working off the approved map" was actually more common than you might think. I spent at least 75% of my time "over there" in 9 man recon units in Cambodia. Cambodia, that supposedly neutral country, used to allow NVA (and some VC) units places of sanctuary, to rest, recuperate, rearm and then come back into South Vietnam. My unit (3 Americans, 5 or 6 Nungs (indigenous to South Vietnam, but of Chinese ancestry and the absolutely most fearless and dangerous jungle fighters in the world) would sneak and snake around in Cambodia, looking for these R &R ing NVA, then call in air support - then run like hell. It's EASY (barring bad luck)for a small group of 8-10 men, well trained and expert in field craft to sneak around in that part of Cambodia (Parrot's Beak) without being seen - almost impossible to get out once they knew you were there. The NVA, VC and Khemer Rouge all had prices on our heads (not by name, like Jesse James) but for any American found in Cambo. Village mercenaries dotted the landscape looking for us for that reward money. And you know what - we knew where the fuck we were. That Kerry "thought" he was in Cambo is just so much bullshit. How could he be a Naval officer and unable to navigate what was, by then, pretty fucking well mapped out - by us?

Kerry could only have received a BCD if he was court martialed. A court martial conviction is probably part of the public record. It's hard to believe that Kerry received a BCD and no one knows about it.

#188 realwest

They don't seem to have any stations in NYC! If you get channels from up-state, this is what they have in New York:

Buffalo:

[Link: www.wutv.com...]
[Link: www.wb49.net...]

Rochester:

[Link: www.foxrochester.com...]

Syracuse:

[Link: www.wsyt68.com...]
[Link: www.wb43.com...]

No stations in Philly or Jersey, either.

You could watch it online here: [Link: www.stolenhonor.com...]

MR. KERRY: SHOW US YOUR RECORDS.