You described it perfectly Charles. I am speechless. So frightening.

Honestly, you DON'T want a public defender in a case like this.

And Mr. Shmulevich needs a paypal account. This is bullshit.

re: #3 m

Amen.

This scares the sh*t out of me. What next?

A koran in the toilet and the guy gets thrown in jail? Is this America or Iran?

Well, are we going to help him, or not?

How long before he gets his own fatwa ?

This is gonna be really interesting.

I can't seem to find any instance of PU's (somehow, that abbreviation seems so appropriate) having arrested somebody for burning an American flag....

Will do, Charles.

I can't find which campus?

If anyone knows a good timing and if they are going to go, let me know.

Who the f' was he harassing? The plumbers? Aggrevated harassment at that!

From what I understand about the case,the Koran in question belonged to the university and not to him personally....can anybody verify that?..that would seem to be the crux of the problem

re: #7 mrsoc

Absolutely we are going to help him.
Any way we can.

Charles,

I'm intrigued by this story. But I'm curious, and I'm sure others may be wondering the same thing; how are you certain this is the true Stanislav Shmulevich and not someone not trying to pull something?

We all trust you in terms of verifying anything technical, that's not in question. It's just that when I read "I’ve received an email from Stanislav Shmulevich", my first thought was how did you verify the e-mail was from the real Stanislav.

Thanks Charles!

You can burn an American flag and get police protection.

You can create an image of the Virgin Mary in elephant dung and get it in a New York museum.

You can create performance art in which you insert a crucifix in your anus on stage and get a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts.

You can burn a pile of bibles and get an article in the New York Times.

One Koran in the toilet results in two felony charges?

People, this is the center of the god damned storm. This is where we make our stand. If we can't win this one for this man, we have lost the war.

...Shmulevich was arrested and jailed for 24 hours.

A certain millionaire celebrity airhead who is charged with multiple crimes against persons was out of jail much quicker than that.

Once Shmulevich has a verified defense fund, count me in.

How can we contribute to his defense?

well, first thing is this:
was it in Arabic, or just a translation?

Muslims say that only a Koran in Arabic is a true Koran

translations are merely interpretations

You mean the ACLU still isn't all over his case? What? You mean they're not pro-American defenders of freedom?

This is a free speech issue and a freedom of religion issue.

We recognize that the KKK and Nazis have the right to assemble and spew racism, but Allah forbid somebody should insult Islam. I didn't realize we had a state religion.

The only offense that should possibly be attributed to Shmulevich is damage to property, assuming the Koran was not his.

This guy's got my support and his story will be on my blog and, of course, I already emailed it to O'reilly and Hannity and will get it to Mark Levin. Later, lizards, off to ride horses before it gets too hot.

charles i suggest you advise him to open a paypal account to recieve financial help from supporters.

Charles, let's set up an account for Mr. Shmulevich. Is this possible? Somewhere we can send funds to assist in his defense. People must know that there are those who care about America and what this country is all about. Also, that we care enough, not wanting the USA to turn into the UK, France, Holland, et al. This is such bullsh*t. And putting his and his family's name and picture in the paper. To what end? To sell papers, I guess. Let's help this man out and, at the same time, help us all out.

Some mussie students have their collective knickers in a wad over this and most likely will try to have koran destruction being made equal to cross burning, even though the night riders (aka kkk) never went after any mussies.

I'll set up a blog for him with PayPal account if that helps.

Maybe a mass Quran flushing in solidarity every week (I suggest Friday) until charges are dropped?

I can't see the crime, you pick up trash and toss it in a trash can. Crap goes in a toilet. Seems pretty simple.

It would be better for Mr. Shmulevich to set up his own Paypal account.

Now see, he just should've put it in a jar of urine. Then it would be "Art" and free from any sort of critcism.

re: #21 ciaospirit

{ciaospirit}

Have a great day, Woman of Valor.

Somehow I have faith in people enough to believe that this will make throwing a Koran in a toilet a fashionable statement.

re: #25 EC Marm

I'll help you if you need any help

re: #26 Killgore Trout

Maybe a mass Quran flushing in solidarity every week (I suggest Friday) until charges are dropped?

I say we put a Koran in piss and call it "Piss Koran" and then ask for a grant from the Endowment for the Arts to hold showings at galleries nationwide.

31
sorry i ment fashionable in a way to defend free speech.

I'd like to know:

1. Did putting the koran in the toilet result in any damage to the plumbing? I could see the argument that it's not that Shmulevich put a koran in the toilet but that he put ANY object in the toilet that resulted in damage, and thus the criminal mischief charge; it still should NOT be a felony.

2. The aggravated harassment charge is really disturbing since no human beings were hurt or specifically insulted.

I'm sure the ACLU will represent him for free.

from the NY daily News

[Link: www.nydailynews.com...]

Perhaps it was the plumbers union that got upset over this. Maybe PETA got upset over the handling of fecal bacteria.

re: #33 ciaospirit

Jinx!

re: #30 BabbaZee

re: #21 ciaospirit

{ciaospirit}

Have a great day, Woman of Valor.

Thanks, Babs. Eternal hugs.

Felonies? Being held to a higher standard? Antisemitism should be a crime.

#29 nnptcgrad

He simply put it in a dynamic jar if urine.

I'm just amazed that we, as Americans, a fiesty, loud,lot of mongrels- will allow the mere purposeful irreverent dumping of a book into the can to be considered "a hate crime" - when ripping up and stomping on the American flag in New York City by Islamist fanatics is perfectly fine because it's a expression of displeasure with the US Government.

Is the Koran not the same as our Flag in this case. A
Symbol?

There has been NO HARM to ANYONE for dumping that book
into the shitter. NONE! It was a free expression of displeasure with a religion. Nothing more, nothing less!

This is a travesty of Justice. Where is the fucking ACLU? Where the fuck are they?

Does the Koran have magical powers? Fuck No!

re: #26 Killgore Trout

That would probably cause Municipal utilities to complain. They prefer to reserve their sanitary systems for less vile matter.

This needs to be disseminated beyond LGF (after verification of all the bonafides). Hugh Hewitt, Sean Hannity, even Michael Savage, as well as any others should be able to run with this. This is an egregious assault on first amendment rights and should not, no, MUST not stand. At worst, this is a property damage misdemeanor case, not a felony.

/I'm sure the MSM will be all over this assault on American freedoms. NOT

re: #35 goddessoftheclassroom

I'd like to know:

1. Did putting the koran in the toilet result in any damage to the plumbing? I could see the argument that it's not that Shmulevich put a koran in the toilet but that he put ANY object in the toilet that resulted in damage, and thus the criminal mischief charge; it still should NOT be a felony.

2. The aggravated harassment charge is really disturbing since no human beings were hurt or specifically insulted.

None of the news stories have mentioned any damage to plumbing. That does not seem to be the issue.

we need a "Koran Desecration March" right down the middle of Pace University

re: #28 Charles Charles - as was asked in #15, by Canadian Infidel, can you (or have you already) verified that the e-mail was from the real Mr. Shmulevich?

[deleted]

re: #45 AZfederalist

And some were in a tizzy over the attack on our freedoms by the Patriot Act...

re: #45 AZfederalist

I've already sent an e-mail to HotAir and Michelle Malkin.
I'll also send one to smalldeadanimals.com, a Canadian blog.

Question, Where does free speech & civil liberties end?
Answer, Islam.
This is submission to an alien ideology that seeks to destroy Western
Civilisation.
Where oh where is equal protection?If A Muslim desecrates a Bible, why that is free speech silly.
Why not just try the guy under Sharia Law and then behead him?
On second thought, don't

re: #27 baslimthecripple
Exactly.

re: #13 Armigerous
Shouldn't they make him pay for the book and not throw him in jail?

I'm not being a smartass, I'm serious. And what is the punishment when someone stops up a toilet on purpose no matter what they used?

Sadly, perhaps one of the more effective ways of helping this student would be similar instances of so-called "aggravated harassment" occurring at other schools around the country.

Also sadly, that might just prod the state and federal government into strengthening and further codifying these "hate" crime laws, and putting newer, more restrictive laws on the books.

Where is the ACLU and FIRE? They should be helping provide the defense.

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

sheesh

re: #13 Armigerous

From what I understand about the case,the Koran in question belonged to the university and not to him personally....can anybody verify that?..that would seem to be the crux of the problem

Apparently not his Koran:

Stanislav Shmulevich, 23, was confronted by detectives with a surveillance photo of himself leaving a Pace meditation room where the Muslim holy books were stored, police sources said.

Mind you, that's from the CAIR blurb that Charles linked to.

Didn't this guy steal the Korans he flushed from one of the prayer rooms on campus?

I don't see it as much different than stealing a Bible from a seminary and flushing it. Hate crime laws were created in the first place to allow such crimes to be punished far out of proportion to the offense, as long as the victims could claim membership in any officially designated victim group. Islam is just turning our own stupidity against us, and you've got to admit, they're doing a damn fine job of it.

Hopefully this will end in a new revolution where people are no longer terrified of calling a spade, a spade. The alternative is ending like the Romans did, tearing themselves apart as the only civilized alternative to fighting back against their enemies.

re: #43 LSD

Does the Koran have magical powers? Fuck No!

Yes, it does posses magical powers. It makes liberals foul themselves when they must face angry mussies.

Come across like an angry mussie and you'll crush a liberal every time.

re: #46 Charles

I have to believe that if Shmulevich damaged plumbing, we'd be reading about it. The only crime I see here is if the Q'U'R'A'N he used belonged to the university. But that wouldn't make destroying it a felony, unless it's a particularly rare and valuable edition (Signed by the author?).

Hey does anyone here know how he got caught anyway. Not that I am having the idea of doing it myself but just curious how he got found out.

re: #55 squarepeg

No theft charges?

I sent this to cair yesterday. Will let ya know if i get "fatwa'd"...

JJ

To whom it may concern;

What in the living HELL is wrong with you people? So what? Someone expressed their 1st Amendment Rights according to US Law and you guys seethe! I am of Irish & Greek decent. If everytime someone told a "Drunk Irishman" joke or a "How do you seperate the men from the boys in Greece...with a crowbar" joke and I seethed, I'd be in an insane asylum.

Grow the hell up people. This is America. Learn to adapt. Do not test our patience with these insane rules of engagement. From the insanity of Muslims not allowed to scan pork products, to Minneapolis cabbies not allowing seeing eye dogs in their cabs, to the Imams on the plane, to being allowed to pray five times a day in schools and me not allowed to pray to MY God in school, it is getting very tiring.

If our American flag can be burned in protest and someone can make a movie about how to assassinate President Bush and nobody be arrested, then this attempt to send someone to jail for flushing the koran is ludicrous.

I am planning on buying about ten korans and destroying them on my property, asap. I will rip up the koran page by page and flush it down my toilet. The koran is owned by me and my toilet is owned by me and there is absolutely nothing you can do to me. This is America. Freedom of speech. I do NOT hate Muslims. I HATE islam. I HATE sharia law. I L O V E being an infidel and since this is America, there is absolutely nothing you can say or do to me. Suck it up, cair.

Quit seething at every turn and maybe, MAYBE, the hate you seem to feel towards muslims just might dissipate. Keep seething and I feel it just might get worse. And that is not good for OUR nation.

Sincerely,

Did this man own the Korans?
If they were his Koran's what is the problem?

re: #37 rhythman Huh, that story in the New York Daily News said he was arrested on "Criminal Mischief" charges and let out on
$1,500 bail.
No mention of felonies anywhere.

CHARLES - With all due respect, perhaps we need a 24 hour rule on this?

re: #55 squarepeg

Confronted by detectives while leaving a room where MUSLIM EFFIN HOLY BOOKS are stored?

in AMERICA

The world is a MFing madhouse.

#59 NinoBrown79, it says surveillance cameras.

re: #58 Jack Reacher

(Signed by the author?).

Stan?

re: #62 Ayazheniangel

Did this man own the Korans?
If they were his Koran's what is the problem?

Sorry I see that question was answered.

re: #62 Ayazheniangel

Did this man own the Korans?
If they were his Koran's what is the problem?

See my #55. (I'm only referring to the CAIR material that Charles posted on this topic earlier, by the way, so don't consider it the final word.)

What about getting FIRE for the defense team? They did a good job for the San Francisco State University students who stepped on the Hamas logo.

re: #53 m

I'm not being a smartass, I'm serious. And what is the punishment when someone stops up a toilet on purpose no matter what they used?

So this was a mini koran that was flushable?

This is proof that although the First Amendment is good and necessary, it isn't sufficient to ensure free speech. Free speech can be curtailed by other means than state censorship, for instance social censorship on lower levels, or plain physical and legal intimidation.

re: #63 realwest

Real....it is my understanding he was let out with no bail as he had an otherwise clean record

I am disgusted at what we've allowed our country to become. It's time to take back our country. No matter what it takes, or what we have to do, we must take it back.

I am really beginning to think I will indeed live long enough to be beheaded under a frickin' caliphate.

Charles, does this mean that I can no longer use my free Koran from Cair for toilet paper? It's urgent that I get an answer to this question before tomorrow morning...

RE THE DAMAGED PLUMBING

Folks, didn't we go through this idiot test in the Gitmo Koran-flushing hoax? We all know it's impossible to get a book that size down the toilet in one piece. The Korans were apparently found soaking in the bowl. Your concern for the plumbing of Pace is touching but unnecessary.

re: #65 Roger

yeah when he got caught takin a koran but how did they find out he flushed it? And wtf are they doing anyway pulling surviellance cameras because a book was in a toilet? this just sounds freakin stupid.

I think somebody should attempt to send this story to Michael Savage because I know he is prone to donating money for legal fees.
I can't find his e-mail contact but will look.

Piss Christ = Art
Koran in a toilet = Hate crime

/spit

to me this case is so perverse on every level that I'm having a Marry Tyler Moore moment...I must be the epitome of naive...I thought it was much simpler than this bs

This makes me wonder what country I live in. This hasnt even been on the news yet?

re: #48 realwest

re: #28 Charles Charles - as was asked in #15, by Canadian Infidel, can you (or have you already) verified that the e-mail was from the real Mr. Shmulevich?

Yes, it's him.

To use a word I have told my children not to ruin, in its original meaning.... :) --it is so appropriate here..........swe-e-e-e-e-t! --that a person in distress would turn to Charles' lgf ! ! ! :)

Let's put our lizard heads together, and make a HUGE fuss, where it will count.......no? :)

re: #70 screaming_eagle

I don't think the Kroan was actually flushed...just thrown in the toilet. I think if it were flushed no one would have known unless they were sewer workers.

FIRE: Submit a case:

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FIRE does not cover the costs of ongoing litigation nor represent individuals in lawsuits. FIRE also does not take cases that are from the staff of colleges or universities, involve elementary or high schools, have grade disputes as the primary issue, are from outside the United States, or are submitted by phone or fax.

Please do not call or fax us. A representative from FIRE will contact you via e-mail regarding your case submission. Before you submit this form, we recommend that you type your case details into a new document outside your web browser. In the event of an error, you won't lose any information.

Anyone want to fill out the form?

make that Koran....not kroan...PIMF

Intimidation
Manipulation
Domination

~ The triune essence of the Biblical definition of "witchcraft"

Get Fido to do the Boston steamer thing on a koran in front of a mosque.

Where was this koran put in a toilet ? And yes, that does matter. If he did it at home, he's guilty of destroying a library book, and owes replacement costs. If he did it somewhere public with the intent to make a 'statement', he may indeed have run afoul of state "hate crime" laws. I don't know.

That's probably not gonna win me any friends, but let's take another example. Two skinheads spray-paint swastikas all over the local synagogue. In a lot of jurisdictions, that's a "hate crime." If they had instead spray-painted "GO (insert name of sports team here) !", they would be guilty of a misdemenor vandalism charge. If a couple of rednecks set three Presto logs on fire in a black neighborhood, they have probably violated some ordinances of the misdemeanor level. If they light a cross there, that's a "hate crime" in most jurisdictions.

re: #6 NinoBrown79

A koran in the toilet and the guy gets thrown in jail? Is this America or Iran?

The Islamic States of America I guess.

re: #42 Roger

#29 nnptcgrad

He simply put it in a dynamic jar if urine.

Ha! Well put.

I’ve received an email from Stanislav Shmulevich, who has been arrested in New York for putting merely touching a Koran in a toilet at Pace University.

/give it 5 years. drip drip drip.

re: #62 Ayazheniangel Please see my #63 from the New York Daily News. That story is not identical to the one posted by the Associated(with Terrorists) story upon which I gather Charles relied.
Again I strongly suggest a 24 hour rule on this story - and would like to know if Charles can or has verified the source of the e-mail he received.

Last time I was tongue in cheek.

This time I more more serious.

Sept. 13 2007, first day of Ramadan.

PUT A KORAN IN A TOILET.
PUT A KORAN IN THE PORK SECTION AT YOUR SUPERMARKET.

Put a note on it:

IN DEFENSE OF Free Speech.

If burning the flag is covered speech.
If putting dung on the Madonna is covered speech.

They an individual has by practice of law and precedence the absolute right to do with their own Koran whatever they damn well please.

re: #56 tatterdemalian

Islam is just turning our own stupidity against us, and you've got to admit, they're doing a damn fine job of it.

It would seem that way, would it not?

Surely there must be one conservative attorney in NY who will help this young man or does such a thing exist in NY?

re: #92 realwest

He says that he's sure it's him in #81

#88 Mike C.

Incredibly poor analogy; what possessed you?

re: #88 Mike C.

Where was this koran put in a toilet ? And yes, that does matter. If he did it at home, he's guilty of destroying a library book, and owes replacement costs. If he did it somewhere public with the intent to make a 'statement', he may indeed have run afoul of state "hate crime" laws. I don't know.

That's probably not gonna win me any friends, but let's take another example. Two skinheads spray-paint swastikas all over the local synagogue. In a lot of jurisdictions, that's a "hate crime." If they had instead spray-painted "GO (insert name of sports team here) !", they would be guilty of a misdemenor vandalism charge. If a couple of rednecks set three Presto logs on fire in a black neighborhood, they have probably violated some ordinances of the misdemeanor level. If they light a cross there, that's a "hate crime" in most jurisdictions.

I agree.
Just wondering if he'd put a bible in a toilet, would he have been charged

doubt it

re: #87 BenZacharia

Actually it's a 'Cleveland steamer'

If I were a Muslim I'd be laughing my ass off at the stupid Americans who allow me and my fellows to intimidate them so easily into attacking their own over my sensitive feelings. Allah, thank you for this incredibly soft target!

re: #84 zombie

That a great idea. It's probably best to have him fill it out himself.

re: #83 kawfytawk

I was only being sarcastic to the stopped up toliet line. No doubt it was just lieing in the bowl.

re: #16 distwalker

re: #16 distwalker

This is where we make our stand.

We should have stopped this kind of crap before it ever got to this point. But, better late to the fight than not showing up at all.

Ibrahim Hooper . . . said CAIR decided to speak out about the Pace incidents because Muslim students are impacted by the creation of what could be viewed as a hostile campus environment.

Not nearly as hostile a campus environment as the one at al-Nanjah, Dougie.

Not nearly as hostile an environment as that created at the Twin Towers, whose former footprint is but a stone's throw away from the Pace University campus in lower Manhattan, Dougie.

Where's Buzzsawmonkey?

re: #72 kawfytawk
Thanks for that. Again, 24 hour rule, please y'all.

I would not have posted this if I had any doubt about the email.

This whole arrest thing is so absurdly over the top. You know the ol saying squeaky wheel gets the grease, well CAIR is one helluva squeaky wheel against a bunch of complacent "afraid to offend" Americans.

re: #88 Mike C.

Mike C, it all adds up to a great case for doing away with "hate crimes" anyway.

"Uh, your honor, I merely broke the old lady's back and stole her last five bucks because I wanted her money, NOT because she was white/Asian/black."

"Okay, in that case you get two months instead of two years."

re: #108 kawfytawk

This whole arrest thing is so absurdly over the top. You know the ol saying squeaky wheel gets the grease, well CAIR is one helluva squeaky wheel against a bunch of complacent "afraid to offend" Americans.

on my car , the squeaky wheel gets replaced

Being a Christian I would not like to see a Bible in the toilet, but as an American I would not like to see any man, women, or child punished like this for putting it in the toilet.

It's a book, NOT GOD.

re: #96 thriggle
Yup, thread's skipping along too fast for an old man like me to keep up.

I'm flushing all my Playboys. Come and get me.

re: #100 rtheyserius

If I were a Muslim I'd be laughing my ass off at the stupid Americans who allow me and my fellows to intimidate them so easily into attacking their own over my sensitive feelings. Allah, thank you for this incredibly soft target!

rthey, I am entirely sure that they are literally doing just that.

Hi all,

Thanks for giving me an account here Charles. My first message is brief as I have a meeting with family coming up and wont be back for a while.

Firstly, thank you everyone for support. At the moment, I'm looking for legal advice for this. Yes, the book in question is school property...so charges of vandalism I would understand and not need advice on. Earlier someone posted that you can burn a US flag and claim freedom of political speech, a Koran is the same, can someone with knowledge of law further comment on this as my current legal defence is Google.

Once again, thanks for understanding.

Stanislav

re: #83 kawfytawk

Exactly right.

As an aside, I know someone who was convicted of a count of criminal mischief. It's not normally a felony charge - this person received only a misdemeanor conviction, three months' probation, and 30 hours of community service. And the actual crime for which this person was eventually convicted of "criminal mischief" was much more serious than a book in a toilet.

#111 Ayazheniangel

Exactly!

re: #97 Roger

Stan?

LOL!

re: #97 Roger

Actually, "hate crime" laws were put on the books for exactly the types of things I mentioned. The original federal hate crime law is from 1969. Muslims have merely adapted existing and well-established laws.

re: #84 zombie
EVERYONE should fill out the form!

OK, I filled out and submitted the FIRE form. Maybe they'll take notice.

OT Tech issue for Charles:

Charles have received any reports of LGF causing Firefox 2.x to crash every now and then?

I've had at least 6 Firefox crashes over the last few months when loading LGF. The latest was 5 minutes ago when this particular post was added by you - when I refreshed, the post appeared briefly, then Firefox crashed.

I've never had FF crash any other time - every time it has been related in some way to initially loading or refreshing LGF.

re: #56 tatterdemalian

Didn't this guy steal the Korans he flushed from one of the prayer rooms on campus?

I don't see it as much different than stealing a Bible from a seminary and flushing it. Hate crime laws were created in the first place to allow such crimes to be punished far out of proportion to the offense, as long as the victims could claim membership in any officially designated victim group. Islam is just turning our own stupidity against us, and you've got to admit, they're doing a damn fine job of it.

Hopefully this will end in a new revolution where people are no longer terrified of calling a spade, a spade. The alternative is ending like the Romans did, tearing themselves apart as the only civilized alternative to fighting back against their enemies.

Those are allegations until proven. As you can see from the CAIR link, he read the Koran, so it's likely he had a copy or copies. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. It's said that the Koran was stolen from a meditation area, but right now it's only hearsay.

#119 Mike C. , I was referring to your swastika analogy as being poor; and I was being kind.

re: #123 Thanos

Thanos, StanS walks among us. Maybe you were typing while his post appeared. Scroll up.

Get the word out quick when Stanislav Shmulevich gets a defense fund started. I'll be glad to donate some of my tax free $$ (am in a combat zone, no taxes) to fight CAIR & the MSA. pigslam must be smashed on all fronts.

Hey Stan I hope you own a weapon, may I suggest a shotgun for home use and any type of revolver if you have to go outside.

re: #115 StanS

Hi all,

Thanks for giving me an account here Charles. My first message is brief as I have a meeting with family coming up and wont be back for a while.

Firstly, thank you everyone for support. At the moment, I'm looking for legal advice for this. Yes, the book in question is school property...so charges of vandalism I would understand and not need advice on. Earlier someone posted that you can burn a US flag and claim freedom of political speech, a Koran is the same, can someone with knowledge of law further comment on this as my current legal defence is Google.

Once again, thanks for understanding.

Stanislav

HANG TOUGH STAN!

Was anything done that is worse than this?

Hell frigging NO!

[Link: www.anti-cair-net.org...]

Did he really stoop to theft? Did he take one and flush another? University imprimatur on koran?

If they are going to charge him for putting a prohibited item in the loo I want every third female on campus arrested and charged similarly.

So I've been registered for a bit, but that whole Navy thing keeps me busier than I'd like sometimes; however, this story is one on which I can not keep from commenting.

Why is it that Muslims are the new protected species? I'm curious to know when the 'artist' (spit) who 'created' Piss Christ will be brought up on charges...

Remember boys and girls:

Burning the US Flag = Freedom of Speech
Crucifx submerged in piss = Art
Koran submerged in water = Hate Crime

re: #115 StanS

Stand strong, we will back you every way we can.

Statement from the Association of Toilet Worshippers:

"In the name of Armitage and Shanks (peace be upon them), may I say how deeply hurt I am by this incident. The thought of that pristine toilet facility being soiled in this horrible way by being jammed up with that smelly old book...it feels like my heart is being torn out.

This aggravated harrassment of an innocent U-bend that never done nothin to nobody cannot go unpunished. An example to others must now be made."

re: #107 Charles
Charles - yeah, I shoulda known that. Sorry, just felt it had to be asked because there are apparent contradictions in this matter depending on the source (e.g., CAIR, AP or Daily News).
And, NO OFFENSE to you Charles, but I still think the 24 hour rule should be applied here.

re: #111 Ayazheniangel

Being a Christian I would not like to see a Bible in the toilet, but as an American I would not like to see any man, women, or child punished like this for putting it in the toilet.

It's a book, NOT GOD.

Absolutely and as someone mentioned before, why isn't all the flag-burning considered a hate-crime then?

Could it be because americans don't go on a murderous rampage every time someone burns an american flag, whereas muslims do everytime someone 'insults the prophet'?

To remedy this imbalance, perhaps americans need to start rampaging murderously over every flag-burning, then flag-burning will become a hate-crime too.

If we hold that the desecration of ANY holy text is supposed to be anathema, do arrest those who would desecrate the Bible, or make wild accusations about the Jews, or declare open season on Western civilisation. Everyone is supposed to be equal, not some are more equal than others.

re: #109 squarepeg

Well, I sorta agree, but sorta don't. Do you think skinheads spraying swastikas on a synagogue should be fined $ 50 and forced to clean up, or should it be something more serious ?

The laws basically rest on intent here, specifically an attempt to imtimidate a group based on racial, ethnic, religious, etc. lines.

This needs to go all the way to the Supreme Court and I'll do anything I can to help this guy. Somebody should set up a defense fund for this guy.

Charles?

re: #16 distwalker

You can burn an American flag and get police protection.

You can create an image of the Virgin Mary in elephant dung and get it in a New York museum.

You can create performance art in which you insert a crucifix in your anus on stage and get a grant from the National Endowment for the Arts.

You can burn a pile of bibles and get an article in the New York Times.

One Koran in the toilet results in two felony charges?

I saw a drawing displayed in a local gallery of an altar boy giving Jesus a blowjob as he was being crucified.

The artist got a nice opening day reception, with Zinfandel and brie.

Stan please do me a favor and say nothing about the incident on here, hate to have anything you say on an online chat room show up in court.

In Christianity the book the printed Bible is LOGOS a dead object. When a person reads the words printed in a Bible and they have a SPIRITUAL effect they become RHEMA, the living word.

Christians (most) realize this and take little or no offense to mistreatment of the physical book, because the truth contained in the Scripture is living, eternal and not related to a physical object.

Oh no, I just realized... now I have to rename Satan!

re: #115 StanS

Hi all,

Stanislav

Stan, Monday try to call in to the Michael Savage radio show
1800 449 8255 6-9 PM eastern. tell your story

I hear him donating money all the time to causes like yours, for legal bills. In addition that gets the word out.

re: #115 StanS

Welcome. :)

re: #115 StanS

Stan...

Please keep us informed as to how this plays out. Stay strong and get a good lawyer.

re: #141 BabbaZee

Oh no, I just realized... now I have to rename Satan!

Stan hates to be mocked

Did he steal the Koran?

re: #139 NinoBrown79

Stan please do me a favor and say nothing about the incident on here, hate to have anything you say on an online chat room show up in court.

This is wise.

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet as I have not gotten through all the comments.

But it seems that an easy defense would be to say that Islam is not just a religion, but also a political ideology. As such, burning a Koran or pissing on it or putting it in the toilet falls under freedom of political expression in this country.

StanS?
LOL
change the headline
"Author destroys own work"

Charles, I hope you don't mind, but I posted this information over at Powerline, along with the link to contact Pace University.

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

Those is a scary situation and this guy deserves all the support we can give him.

re: #145 shug

lol

re: #127 NinoBrown79 REALLY BAD ADVICE to Stan here. If he gets caught with an unlicensed handgun in NYC it's a MANDATORY one year jail term.

LGF needs to set up a legal defense fund for this guy. Obviously, ACLU only interest themselves in Free Speech when there's political gain.

NYC's response to this event is despicable--it is so disheartening that this altered city which suffered the worst terrorist attack in history by Muslim agents would arrest and charge with two felonies a gentleman freely expressing his political beliefs, namely his dislike for the practitioners of 9/11 and fears of radical Islamism, and then the city's secular progressive media outlets would post his name and face on a newspaper to become an easy target by Islamists in Brooklyn, Jersey City, and Paterson.

Will the ACLU PLEASE STAND UP? This is a key case for the ACLU, and by declining to defend this gentleman its hypocrisy will be exposed once and for all.

Of course, we know it won't, because this gentleman is white and most probably Jewish, and Jews, particularly conservative leaning Jews are excluded along with Christians with the rare exception where useless secular progressive Jews use the ACLU in order to tear down Christmas trees in public places.

Until NYC becomes a fair and equitable, safety minded city again (and perhaps replaces a few Asbestos filled steam-pipes and fixes its pothole-lined roads), I won't be frequenting it as often as I used to.

Shame on Pace University!
Rudy-- will you stand up for Stanislav Shmulevich?

re: #123 Thanos

re: #56 tatterdemalian

Didn't this guy steal the Korans he flushed from one of the prayer rooms on campus?

I don't see it as much different than stealing a Bible from a seminary and flushing it. Hate crime laws were created in the first place to allow such crimes to be punished far out of proportion to the offense, as long as the victims could claim membership in any officially designated victim group. Islam is just turning our own stupidity against us, and you've got to admit, they're doing a damn fine job of it.

Hopefully this will end in a new revolution where people are no longer terrified of calling a spade, a spade. The alternative is ending like the Romans did, tearing themselves apart as the only civilized alternative to fighting back against their enemies.

Those are allegations until proven. As you can see from the CAIR link, he read the Koran, so it's likely he had a copy or copies. Innocent until proven guilty and all that. It's said that the Koran was stolen from a meditation area, but right now it's only hearsay.

Argh. Ok I revoke this comment... per Stan's admission above.

Stan:

I certainly appreciate your honesty, but please be careful what you say about the specifics of the case anywhere: every point needs to be proven for the case to stand. While we would all like to get the case "flushed" on ideological grounds, with the court venue this will go through that might not happen. Please, be careful when you state specifics as all said here could become material to the case.

#115 StanS

Thanks for checking in. Keep us informed and let us know what we can do to help.

re: #146 AG in Houston

Did he steal the Koran?

Scroll up. I'm too lazy to find the post, but the answer is the Koran was not his but the university's. Theft? Not so sure; it only got as far as a university toilet.

re: #115 StanS

Hang in there...

as my current legal defence is Google

You definitely need better representation!

re: #136 Mike C.

Ok, you are going to obsessively do the swastika analogy? Want to think about it or are you ready for my next replies on the subject?

.re: #141 BabbaZee

Oh no, I just realized... now I have to rename Satan!

I was thinking that I wish Charles had helped him with that nic a little. :~)

re: #148 MICHAEL in MI

I don't know if anyone has mentioned this yet as I have not gotten through all the comments.

But it seems that an easy defense would be to say that Islam is not just a religion, but also a political ideology. As such, burning a Koran or pissing on it or putting it in the toilet falls under freedom of political expression in this country.

EXACTLY RIGHT.

CAIR = POLITICAL ISLAM - for example.

And we should all be allowed to freely express ourselves in opposition to that IDEOLOGY in any form we choose as long as nobody is physically harmed.

The Islamic Thinkers Society does this every DAY!

Stan:
Keep your mouth shut about the specifics of your case until you have a lawyer. Let your lawyer do the talking.

Personally, I don't care where he got the Koran, he did exactly the right thing with it and if he sets up a Paypal account to cover his legal fees, I'll certainly through some Euros into it.

Why not organise a national Koran flushing day? Let's see if half the country gets charged with 'hate crimes'. This is just so viciously stupid, it would be funny if it weren't real. Just like pretty much anything about Islam that makes the news in fact.

re: #153 marsouin

All Stan needs to do is set up a paypal account to be able to accept donations

re: #160 EC Marm

LOL me too!

re: #115 StanS
There are plenty of legal eagles who will show up soon and give you better advice than mine, but in the meantime, don't say anything that can be used against you.
Michael Yon's book, Danger Close, is an eye-opening good read on avoiding getting tangled up unnecessarily - dealing tightly with the issue at hand and not saying a single word extra that can be twisted around to get charges piled on or made more onerous. As Yon comments, decent people are used to answering questions and expecting that their responses or explanations will be handled normally. In a criminal investigation - NO! Any comment anywhere will be used against you. You'll have to get used to a different manner of communication to protect yourself.
Hold on - it's just starting, and it'll be a slog, but don't forget that people often give up just before cracking thru the final barrier to total victory.

girl or boy I'm naming my next child StanS...if this ever actually goes to trial somebody somewhere is gonna make the tonight show for sure...it gives Holy Hell a whole new meaning...hang tough StanS...I cant believe this will turn out bad for you and us in the long run bro...

Stan

just curious...what was the reason for putting the Koran in the toilet. Was it because you disagree with the substance...or a stand on some principle or just as a prank. I read an article where your roommate said that you defended the Koran....we all know media reports are often wrong.... just wondered if you could shed some light on this.

Don't get me wrong....I still think the Univ. went high and right on this.

re: #159 Roger

I think Mike has a point. There's a lot of grey area in this sort of thing. But I think the easiest way to think of this is to keep the analogies to Holy books in toilets. What would happen in it was a Torah or a Bible? Almost certainly wouldn't be charged as a hate crime.

re: #162 MJ

yeah....maybe you should disregard my last post

The crucial question for me is : Does the Koran have a unique status among holy books? Is it really being claimed that the flushing/defiling of ANY holy book - from the Bible to the Sacred Scrolls of the Toilet Worshippers - is a hate crime? In which case why wasn't mr Piss Christ and countless others prosecuted?

It is obvious that they are giving the Koran a unique status - so, how can they possibly justify that?

re: #140 jcm

It's actually not about that in essence. That's just the costume it wears.

It is about cultural terrorism

CULTURAL JIHAD

intimidation
manipulation
domination

steal
kill
destroy

restore the caliphate

re: #171 Jimmah

It is obvious that they are giving the Koran a unique status - so, how can they possibly justify that?

they are dhimmis

re: #169 Killgore Trout

It figures you would get this wrong too.

Now if you made the analogy to someone flushing a swastika down a toilet and wondered all about the legal ramifications of that...

re: #115 StanS Welcome aboard LGF! First thing is PLEASE be careful what you say out here, cause it could come back to bite you on the ass in court. Click on my football and you'll see I know what I'm talkiing about.
Secondly, please ignore all suggestions that you arm yourself with a handgun, unless you have a license for it; penalty for carrying an unlicensed handgun in NYC is a MANDATORY (judge has no discretion) one year in jail sentance.
Finally, I've asked several times for the 24 hour rule here - to try to get ALL the facts (which you may not know) before we go any further.
Thanks and if you want Lizards to communicate with you, please post something after checking the show e-mail box - it'll enable us to use Charles "Safe E-Mail" system to reach you.
My nic is in blue - meaning you can reach me if you would like to talk about this.

re: #141 BabbaZee

Oh no, I just realized... now I have to rename Satan!

Schtan! ;-)

Stanislav,

I don't think Google is the best attorney money can't buy. Let's hope we here can help you find a better one!

It hardly feels like America anymore.

This was charged as a hate crime only because CAIR and the Muslim Students Association complained and pressured the university into it. They wanted to have 'sensitivity training' and leave it at that, but the Islamic advocacy groups were looking to make an example of this guy.

We've linked our support!

Watch this! It better be BIG!

Believe it or not, the French are actually upset by this. Here is a link to the article and the link includes some contact information as well.

[Link: tinyurl.com...]

re: #174 Roger Wish you had used the sarc tag there, as you must be joking.

re: #180 susango

Halal Pig International? Imam Oink Oink? Haha, thanks for showing us that site!

re: #178 Charles

This was charged as a hate crime only because CAIR and the Muslim Students Association complained and pressured the university into it. They wanted to have 'sensitivity training' and leave it at that, but the Islamic advocacy groups were looking to make an example of this guy.

he'll be a fine example all right...(law of unintended consequence)

When it came to "Piss Christ" all I could do was just grit my teeth. Art and political expression in this country has a long history of sometimes being ugly. Is StanS being charged in the Shari'a court system?

re: #175 realwest

Did not know he lives in NY sorry. I live in VA and know little about New Yorks gun laws. I never said illegaly buy one anyway i ment legally get one. dam i cant spell worth crap

You absolutely MUST have an attorney to represent you. Many have payment plans. Please start looking for representation.

re: #88 Mike C.

Your analogies are correct. "Hate Crime" laws are unconstitutional as they violate equal protection (a moslem can stick a koran in a toilet and maybe get hit with a charge of property damage, but if a non-moslem does it, he or she can be charged with a hate crime, which carries a heavier penalty). The application of the Hate Crime laws in this instance is an abomination.

re: #124 Roger
No, under the law(s), it's not poor at all. It is a type of intimidation, which is what these laws were intended to counter. Whether this particular case involves such intent, I don't know, as I have already stated. If it does, then the law is applicable.

re: #171 Jimmah

I've come to the same conclusion. This being charged as a hate crime places the Quran above other holy books and that's Sharia.

re: #115 StanS

Take care and be careful!

re: #78 shug

I think somebody should attempt to send this story to Michael Savage because I know he is prone to donating money for legal fees.

I probably shouldn't say this but I have an inside track to the Savage show. Some of the news stories you hear covered there...were brought to their attention by me.

I'll send them this. But don't get your hopes up. It's always a very long shot as far as getting his attention goes. He might very well spend the entire show talking about his dog instead.

A swastika used in a pro swastika way is a symbol of genocide and war against all that is civilized.

Flushing a koran down a toilet is making a statement against an ideology most akin to the swastika's ideology.

re: #172 BabbaZee

re: #140 jcm

It's actually not about that in essence. That's just the costume it wears.

It is about cultural terrorism

CULTURAL JIHAD

intimidation
manipulation
domination

steal
kill
destroy

restore the caliphate

BINGO!

re: #176 littleoldlady

Schtan! ;-)

LOL

So let it be written
So let it be DONE!

This harassment charge is going no-where fast. Like all the other schools before it, the University will open itself up to an examination of speech codes and as well as the preferential treatment of students based on ethnicity or religion. Then there will be the question of the Meditation room turned into a Mosque. And the further question of Jewish donations. University officials always hate the latter issue because . Jews are supposed to give to leftist causes in spite of anti-semitism.

I am afraid Stan has just entered into a storm that is about to spin out of control.

Stan, in hindsight, I understand what you were trying to do, but for this to be a slam dunk legally I think you would have been better off purchasing your own copy of that book and destroying it. There would be no case. Having said that, I can't understand that destorying this type of property would fall under the category of a felony?

Bottom line Stan, read this for moral support, however like others have said I would seriously refrain from making any comments on this situation on here. Concerning legal council what about that Jay Sekelow(sp?) guy that is always defending Christian causes?

OK, I've just submitted it to Savage.

We'll see how it goes.

More, do not post anything on this board until you have a lawyer and ask his advice.

Stan,

I think the appropriate punishment for you would be to have both of your hands chopped off and then attend sensitivity training

/

re: #169 Killgore Trout

re: #159 Roger

I think Mike has a point. There's a lot of grey area in this sort of thing. But I think the easiest way to think of this is to keep the analogies to Holy books in toilets. What would happen in it was a Torah or a Bible? Almost certainly wouldn't be charged as a hate crime.

Right. Put in context - if someone put a bible in the meditation room, and someone threw it in the toilet, would hate crime charges be pressed? Doubtful. If a Torah? Doubtful. The Fountainhead? Doubtful. The Satanic Verses? Doubtful. The Communist Manifesto? Doubtful.

re: #193 jcm

Too bad for me that the bingo prizes really suck for this game.

LOL

re: #197 zombie

OK, I've just submitted it to Savage.

We'll see how it goes.

Might at least make his blog. Let's hope so

I went to NYU Law School, a bastion of liberalism that has a clinical program to give its students court experience. One of the clinics they run is the Civil Rights Clinic:

Students in this clinic represent clients bringing constitutional challenges to law enforcement and prison policies and seeking redress for police and correction officer misconduct in federal court.

There is a second civil rights clinic that has this description:

Students in the semester-long Civil Rights Clinic will have the opportunity to work on a broad range of civil liberties litigation under the supervision of Professor Corey Stoughton at the New York Civil Liberties Union. Professor Stoughton is new to the Clinic, and will bring with her a docket that includes a wide variety of cases and projects. These include such matters as free speech and religious freedom, racial and economic justice, immigrants’ rights, and the rights of lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and transgendered people.

I wonder if they would be willing to help Stanislav out (I would volunteer my services but I'm in Israel and I'm not a litigator so I could not exactly give him competent representation.

For what it's worth, the only non-Muslim country of which I am aware that has actually sentenced someone to jail time for mocking the Koran is Israel.

re: #168 kawfytawk

Stan

just curious...what was the reason for putting the Koran in the toilet. Was it because you disagree with the substance...or a stand on some principle or just as a prank. I read an article where your roommate said that you defended the Koran....we all know media reports are often wrong.... just wondered if you could shed some light on this.

Don't get me wrong....I still think the Univ. went high and right on this.

What a question? What on earth else does one do with a piece of S**t?

re: #162 MJ

Stan:
Keep your mouth shut about the specifics of your case until you have a lawyer. Let your lawyer do the talking.

MJ beat me to it.

Charles, respectfully, there might be problem. Human nature - StanS will want to explain his side of it - and we all really want to hear it, and we are all itching to ask questions, but the temptation to provide answers to questions on an open blog that can be used by the the groups bringing this complaint might just make a bigger mess all around. (?yikes?)

#188 Mike C.

Yea, under the law, for a law worshiper. But the swastika symbolizes racism and hate and genocide. I don't think any decent person would mind if someone flushed a swastika down a toilet.

re: #147 BabbaZee Babba - please see my #152
above.

Stan: I want to reiterate what others have said -- please do not post any specific details about the case here except what's already public knowledge. You can be sure that CAIR's lawyers are reading this.

Yeah re: #198 Bay54

Yeah I agree, I would not post anything other than a plea for money. To talk too much on this board you might get associated with some supposedly anti islamic content some members might post and thus harm yourself when you come to trial. Oh and by the way if you cant buy a gun by a rottwieller.

re: #140 jcm

In Christianity the book the printed Bible is LOGOS a dead object. When a person reads the words printed in a Bible and they have a SPIRITUAL effect they become RHEMA, the living word.

Christians (most) realize this and take little or no offense to mistreatment of the physical book, because the truth contained in the Scripture is living, eternal and not related to a physical object.

It is of my opinion when liberals mock Jesus and the Bible like the so called work of ART called Piss Christ..God will judge them for it.

I just don't want to pay for that kind of ART. Otherwise do what you will to the Bible..it's not my soul!

Was the Koran in question an English translation or an Arabic version?

We are told it is only the Word of Allah in Arabic. So it is a translation we should hold them to there word. This is a non-event, a tempest in a teapot toilet bowl.

re: #115 StanS

What exactly were you charged with?

re: #212 hiker

re: #115 StanS

What exactly were you charged with?

HI-KERRR!

We just got finished telling him a million times not to discuss the case here!

re: #187 hiker

Actually, and to date, federal and state "hate crime" laws have won in district court and SCOTUS has never granted to hear an appeal of any of them.

This was a topic of discussion o the early dead thread.

Real
You are confused
look at the post # I reference
I wasn't referring to his post on guns
I was referring to his post on

don't say anything on the specifics of your case on line

Hate crimes in this country must target an identifiable victim(s), not a class, and must compound an otherwise crime. The harassment charge here fails the test. Pure free speech, possibly a misdemeanor theft though. Depends if the Koran, a hate book that is harrassing Stan under the University's standards, was being distributed. Then there is no crime at all.

re: #212 hiker

re: #115 StanS

What exactly were you charged with?

It's in my post, and it was all over the newspapers so there's nothing wrong with repeating it. "Criminal mischief and aggravated harassment."

re: #189 Killgore Trout

Yep. These dhimmis need to be harrassed on this point till they drown in their own shame.

time has come for muslims to have sensitivity training in dealing with others who don't adhere to their wacko ideology.

Hiker,

From Charles's post:

he’s not facing misdemeanor charges—he’s being charged with two felonies, criminal mischief and aggravated harassment.

re: #199 shug Shug, with all due respect, Stan is a new poster and may not understand the sarc marks.
You might want to clarify that for him; he doesn't need to think he has any enemies out here.

re: #181 realwest

No realwest, I'm serious. Mike C. analogy is worst than poor. The only analogy possible with a swastika is a swastika being flushed down a toilet. Any other is brain dead about the history of both the koran and the swastika.

re: #206 Roger

We're either a nation of laws, or we're not. You make your own choice - I know where I stand.

Well let me know when I can sign up for the Crusade that obviously needs to now take place in MY OWN FUCKING COUNTRY.

Did the Romans have some kind of tablet LGF while it was burning?

re: #217 Charles

It's in my post, and it was all over the newspapers so there's nothing wrong with repeating it. "Criminal mischief and aggravated harassment."

Indeed, nothing wrong with repeating it. But let's not ask StanS questions.

Probably the best advice for Stan, although his up-and-coming lawyer should confirm this, is that he should buy a replacement book to replace the water-damaged one and send it to Pace. Perhaps a well- written letter apologizing for damaging a borrowed school book to go along with it, and late fees if the book is overdue at the library. Case Closed-- once that is resolved it is most likely a very strong First Amendment case for Stan.

There is no need to apologize that a particular title was damaged, and any forced feeding of sensitivity training should be repulsed with revulsion. That in its own right is worth a Supreme Court Case.

I am hoping our outrage will bring this case to a speedy close, and Pace University should be held legally liable for its overreaction.

Perhaps a call by alumni to withhold funding to the university would also help stop this ridiculous situation.

Paging Buzzsawmonkey!

Come in, Buzzsawmonkey!

since part of their reasoning is that hurting a koran is an offense to god it might help the case to put god on the stand and speak for himself about the matter, otherwise its heresay.

re: #210 Ayazheniangel

re: #140 jcm

In Christianity the book the printed Bible is LOGOS a dead object. When a person reads the words printed in a Bible and they have a SPIRITUAL effect they become RHEMA, the living word.

Christians (most) realize this and take little or no offense to mistreatment of the physical book, because the truth contained in the Scripture is living, eternal and not related to a physical object.

It is of my opinion when liberals mock Jesus and the Bible like the so called work of ART called Piss Christ..God will judge them for it.

I just don't want to pay for that kind of ART. Otherwise do what you will to the Bible..it's not my soul!

I get a kick out these "artists" attempting to insult me and my religion. They attack objects which have no meaning to me. They look to be ignorant fools, going on about that which they have no knowledge.

#223 Mike C., yea I know where you stand too. Doesn't mean you know how to make an effective analogy.

Don't forget at Guantanamo the guards are only allowed to touch a koran if they wear gloves, lest their filthy infidel hands touch the "sacred" volume.

I say bring on the koran toilet paper.

I just Dugg this post, for whatever that's worth.
Just a reminder for anyone else that might still want to try.

re: #88 Mike C.

Where was this koran put in a toilet ? And yes, that does matter. If he did it at home, he's guilty of destroying a library book, and owes replacement costs. If he did it somewhere public with the intent to make a 'statement', he may indeed have run afoul of state "hate crime" laws. I don't know.

That's probably not gonna win me any friends, but let's take another example. Two skinheads spray-paint swastikas all over the local synagogue. In a lot of jurisdictions, that's a "hate crime." If they had instead spray-painted "GO (insert name of sports team here) !", they would be guilty of a misdemenor vandalism charge. If a couple of rednecks set three Presto logs on fire in a black neighborhood, they have probably violated some ordinances of the misdemeanor level. If they light a cross there, that's a "hate crime" in most jurisdictions.

I suppose it would depend on how the courts defined a ‘hate crime,’ but the examples you give don’t seem analogous. Nazi skinheads painting a swastika on a synagogue makes reference to a specific movement that killed Jewish people. Rednecks burning a cross on someone’s front lawn makes reference to a specific movement that killed African Americans. Putting a Koran in a toilet does no such thing.

re: #218 Jimmah

I don't mean harrassed in any criminal sense of course - just put on the spot and made to explain exactly how it is that defiling the Islamic holy book is a crime while defiling all other holy books is not.

re: #175 realwest

Correct me if I'm wrong but all I see here is theft by taking and willfull
destruction of private property. Maybe not any thing to do with free
speech. If it were his koran, drop the first count. Certainly not a hate
crime which I think is a slippery slope that never should have been
invented to start with.

re: #115 StanS

Welcome to the tribe, StanS. Hang tough.

re: #196 southernfriedchickenhawk

I am afraid Stan has just entered into a storm that is about to spin out of control.

Stan, in hindsight, I understand what you were trying to do, but for this to be a slam dunk legally I think you would have been better off purchasing your own copy of that book and destroying it. There would be no case. Having said that, I can't understand that destorying this type of property would fall under the category of a felony?

Bottom line Stan, read this for moral support, however like others have said I would seriously refrain from making any comments on this situation on here. Concerning legal council what about that Jay Sekelow(sp?) guy that is always defending Christian causes?

I disagree SouthernFried. Buying your own Koran just to flush it just doesn't carry the same message. It's kind of like that artist guy that purportedly burnt his 60000$ Koran. Finding this book in a library or prayer room, saying to yourself "This is not fit for public consumption!" and taking the appropriate steps is a totally different message and one I wholeheartedly agree with.

My personal view is that the entire civilised world would be much better off if we all did what Stan did, I'd happily declog toilets for a month in exchange.

Maybe he should've been charged with misdemeanor theft and destruction of private property--something commensurate with what he did. Felonies? Bah. The state is overreaching.

Hang in there, Stanislav! Hang in there. You'll be getting good First Amendment defense support soon!

It's time to go after these f**king [bigoted word]s from CAIR and put them out of business for good! This is America, not Iran or Saudi Arabia.

Mr. Stanislav,

I have no legal advice to give, nor any money to donate, but I give you my best wishes and will pray for a SANE resolution to this INSANE B.S. you are going through. Stay tough.

These are strange times indeed.

#229 Teacake!

since part of their reasoning is that hurting a koran is an offense to god it might help the case to put god on the stand and speak for himself about the matter, otherwise its heresay.

My won't they be surprised with what God will say. End of Islam.

OT Charles: How much bandwidth on average did the "new comments" button actually save you?

re: #227 loggiedog

Probably the best advice for Stan, although his up-and-coming lawyer should confirm this, is that he should buy a replacement book to replace the water-damaged one and send it to Pace. Perhaps a well- written letter apologizing for damaging a borrowed school book to go along with it, and late fees if the book is overdue at the library. Case Closed-- once that is resolved it is most likely a very strong First Amendment case for Stan.

There is no need to apologize that a particular title was damaged, and any forced feeding of sensitivity training should be repulsed with revulsion. That in its own right is worth a Supreme Court Case.

I am hoping our outrage will bring this case to a speedy close, and Pace University should be held legally liable for its overreaction.

Perhaps a call by alumni to withhold funding to the university would also help stop this ridiculous situation.

That sounds like good advice.

Free speech only applies to uber-libs. Frankly, I don't think that they will be able to prosecute him on "hate crimes", since they would have to demonstrate that he willfully violated a "victim's" civil rights. In this case, who is the victim? Pace? I don't think so. The [bigoted word] students? They would have to prove some sort of direct threat and injury and that would be impossible.

No, I think that Pace will go after him for malicious destruction of property, vandalism, etc. Unfortunately, Schmule cooked his own goose by taking university property and shoving it in a university toilet. Had he purchased a Koran, pissed on it in a public square, he probably would have been exonerated. Poor judgement on his part.

The threats and intimidation factors being used by Pace are merely concessions to the [bigoted word]s. I doubt that they will seriously pursue the graver charges. More likely there will be a plea bargain for a misdemeanor and community service - most probably re-education at the local mosque. Pathetic but the more probable scenario.

Restitution and probation.

re: #208 Charles

Stan: I want to reiterate what others have said -- please do not post any specific details about the case here except what's already public knowledge. You can be sure that CAIR's lawyers are reading this.

C.A.I.R. reading this? for sure? Okay! C.A.I.R., this is for you: *raspberry*

--Ma Sands

Yes, i hate islam and everything about it, is that a crime? It offends me deeply as does cair.

re: #244 loggiedog

OT Charles: How much bandwidth on average did the "new comments" button actually save you?

Lots. And lots.

re: #215 BabbaZee Sorry 'bout that! Just trying to protect Stan from getting into any more trouble!

Can't StanS just say this was his artistic expression?

Stan made this act at a University - Not a mosque.

His statement was obviously poltical in nature.

FREE SPEECH.

Period.

While the left ignores this monumental attack on free speech, or as my leftist brother says "he deserved it because he attacked an ethnic & religious group," HuffPo publishes this bit of abhorrent offal attacking Jews & Christians.

"I certainly appreciate your honesty, but please be careful what you say about the specifics of the case anywhere: every point needs to be proven for the case to stand."

Were the point getting him off the hook, rather than seeing justice served. It's sad that our justice system is geared more to favor the former more than the latter, but then there are also way too many people who prefer it that way, as it gives their linguistic skills far more weight than they would otherwise have.

Actually, I should correct myself because if he pissed on it in a public square, they would probably prosecute him for exposing himself. Using fire, might violate local air-polution laws too. Such is the sad state of affairs in Amerika.

Stan
Please contact, or have your lawyer contact, FIRE immediately. You will be pleasantly surprised.
[Link: www.thefire.org...]

They will kick Pace's ass in court.
Not Kidding.

It's a shame Johnny Cochran isn't around anymore. I could see him bringing a koran and an American Standard into the courtroom:

It does not fit, you must acquit!

re: #235 Jimmah

re: #218 Jimmah

I don't mean harrassed in any criminal sense of course - just put on the spot and made to explain exactly how it is that defiling the Islamic holy book is a crime while defiling all other holy books is not.

Jimmah, not to advocate the concept of hate crime or to defend Bible-flushers here, but it does focus on intent. If a Muslim drops a Koran in the toilet, maybe it's an act of apostasy, not an attempt to intimidate other Muslims. If an artist drops a crucifix in a jar of urine, maybe it's some statement about what we do to our heroes, not an attempt to intimidate Christians.

(btw, I can't see how StanS's act would stand up to hate crime scrutiny. If he intended to insult Islam or the Koran, I believe that's his right.)

#250 Charles-- that's what I figured-- I remember how long it took to reload all the comments while waiting for the conversation to stand out-- average of 10-20 reloads of 200+ comments by 500+ readers, WOW! Now, adding new hatchlings is certainly easier!

re: #88 Mike C.

That's probably not gonna win me any friends

If setting out facts in a calm and reasonable way can LOSE you friends, then you're probably hanging around with the wrong crowd.

(Ask me how I know.)

re: #234 eff plus

State and federal hate crime laws rely on intent to imtimidate. That's not my opinion, that's the law and the case history. So the question in this case is intent. Hey, maybe the guy just got careless and accidentally dropped the damn thing in there. Case closed. If it was otherwise, that would be different.

And please don't bother me with mis-applications of this, that or the other law. That's an old story stretching back well before the establishment of the US and continuing to this very day. And as far into the foreseeable future as I can see. That's not my point.

re: #251 realwest

I know it, you are the good egg

Stan can have all the money I would have spent on cigarettes next month, which is actually quite a lot.

My two cents:

(1) Flushing a Koran is not, in itself, a crime.
(2) Stealing and destroying a Koran that does not belong to you is a crime.

Once you have some criminal basis, even a minor one like this, then otherwise protected free speech (flushing a Koran to voice disapproval) can serve as the basis for aggravating the underlying charges.

It's like burning a cross on a black family's lawn. The destruction of property is not that big of a deal, but when you mix in the underlying racial animus (which is otherwise protected by the First Amendment -- you are allowed to hate people on the basis of race), then it becomes a felony.

Hmmm, coating a koran with lard then dousing it with some MD 2020 would also constitute freedom of expression without bringing about the wrath of the uber-libs.

First, I am not an attorney -

Second, he has got to keep his mouth shut and let his attorney do the talking, no commenting on blogs, nothing.

Did he admit to anything?

If he was attempting to make a political statement, let his attorney say that.

Third, solidarity would be to have 20 korans dumped in a mock toilet in front of the same library with the news cameras rolling. Koran's owned by the persons doing the free speech. Let someone try and lock those people up and we get a class action.

The crux here is who owned the books dumped to begin with. If these were his personal books with his name written inside and he chose to dump them into a toilet and film it (without clogging the toilet of course) and post that on Youtube, he'd be exercising his free speech rights.

Last, he should ask for a grant from National Endowment for the Arts.

Nifong and Patrick Fitzgerald are just the tips of an iceberg.

Mark Steyn's Sunday article, up at Lucianne, deals with the criminalizing of two 7th graders in Oregon, for "slapping" the behinds of other students, on "butt slapping Fridays."

These kids will now be marked for life as sex offenders.

Where's the judge?

Where's the community?

And, it's here that you see what the lawyers are doing is disasterous for us, as a nation. Since it's destroying our legal codes. And, no one shames the DA's, and the participants.

Here? It's the Pace school officials.

Plus, that this kid began talking before he saw a lawyer! Hard to get it through people's skulls, but for your own safety DO. NOT. TALK. TO. "AUTHORITIES." PERIOD. Let them all go call your lawyers.

Perhaps, we need a list of lawyers' phone numbers, people can access, before they blather?

Since all the judges are political appointments; there's no cures up ahead.

That this guy got caught? Yup. I think so. And, he loses all his money, no matter how this comes out. For the muslems, it's their game. Their court. Their ball.

On the other hand, Nifong was outted.

And, up ahead, DeLay will have his day in court with Ronnie Earle.

And, it also seems that Alberto Gonzales was telling the truth. DATA MINING was the topic discussed with Ashcroft. And, the questions asked by the outraged Bonkey senators had nothing to do with that at all. Math questions would give these jounalists, and elitist losers, headaches.

By the way, to prevent "accidental dropping of Koran's into toilets," I'd suggest the Bonkey Party get behind SIGNS IN ALL BATHROOMS; that instruct people not to flush them. Heck, without the signs up, you'd have a hard time identifying this law, anyway.

And, when the signs go up? I'd like to hear about a lot of gents aiming for them, when they go to pee. It's not as if this outrage would be as acceptable, say, as the crap travellers face when they fly.

re: #263 BabbaZee

Ah, Babba, that is the best yet! :)

Letter to The World:

Come here, attack us, and we will give you protected status under our laws.

USA

re: #261 nonic

Heh.

Well, I'm glad Carl is here so he can correct the following... :-)

WRT a Torah. A REAL Torah is hand written and costs thousands of dollars just to repair. Our synagogue paid a small fortune to restore a Torah that the Nazis desecrated. All they had to do was punch a hole in the skin or put a tattoo on it (that's what they did) and the Torah is "unKosher".

Good luck fitting it in a toilet, though. You might get the wooden pegs that it is scrolled on wet.

A Hebrew language Torah or prayer book must be treated with care because G-d's name appears in it. Work out books or even photocopies must be buried not burned. That applies to Jews, of course. I'm not sure what the rules are for nonJews. I don't know what the water rules are either.

An English translation of the Torah is...just a book.

/if I disappear it's because we're in the middle of a thunderstorm...