abu Mazen doesnt have to like Jews or Israel

he simply has to be a pragmatist, and hopefully want some peace and economic security for the arabs.

Is this wishful thinking.?

He obviously doesn't have to be a Zionist, but he's clearly not a moderate or "urbane". I am also convinced that he is an Arafat stooge, the proof being that Arafat appointed him to this position.

Let hope never die, but never negotiate with the PLO.

Holocaust denial is an ATROCITY

ploome,

I agree with you that he doesn't have to love Israel, Jews, etc.

The problem I see is that Arafat is still the #1 regarding negotiations and security. Consequently, I'm not sure how much say Abu Mazen really has. It won't help if he will remain Arafat's puppet.

But, but he's UNQUESTIONABLY . . .

Here's what seriously bothers me, Shimon Perez coming on Hardball a few weeks back and completely glossing over Mazen's past.

Perez revolts me.

I'm sorry, but just the fact that Abu is Arafat's choice for PM says loads regarding Abu's legitimacy. Are all these politicians including Powell deaf, dumb and blind? Why is it that the average person can see how ridiculous this is and these state like folk can't? It's just as moronic as the Libyians being head of the Humanitarian Rights Commission.

Until Arafat is dead and gone, I wouldn't trust anyone that fool assigns to anything.

This just plain pisses me off, alot, a hell of a lot, a whole hell of a lot. Grrr!

He is an urbane and witty pragmatist, just like Yuri Andropov of the USSR was.

Remember Andropov, the likeable guy who was part of the crushing of the Hungarian Revolution in 1956? The "in the know" knew he was going to reform the USSR, make it all sweetness and light. The same guy who led a country that developed Anthrax, Tularemia and a host of other WMD programs.

Abu is a thug with a pretty face and a pleasant banter. Do not be fooled. He is PLO, and his religion is Israel must be destroyed.

Shimon Peres just doesn't know when to give up, does he? Well, I think he was right when he said this about Abu Mazen:

He has the seriousness required for the job, as well as clear positions and intentions

Just maybe not the way that Shimon Peres meant.

If Ariel Sharon could have been held accountable for the killings of civilians in Lebanon by the Maronite Phalange, on the basis that he should have known they would commit violence, why have Shimon Peres and his gang not been investigated for similar reasons?

They were responsible for importing Yassir Arafat from Tunisia to be their personal warlord of the territories, and they should have known that doing so would result in the killings of civilians - far more civilians than were killed by the Phalangists.

This is yet one more reason why the Palestinians will continue their long slide into oblivion. What possible hope can they have of joining the world of nations after they have dragged yet one more generation of their spawn through the sewers of hate , revenge and ignorance? They have effectively committed suicide. Their connection with the future has been frittered away through decades of buffoonlike antics of their "leadership" and their blind adherence to a world view that has long since been survived by the wooly mammoth.

Personal feelings perhaps may not obscure his ability to be an effective leader for his people.

You need to re-read this - and carefully. The guy does NOT deny the holocaust - he simply accuses the Israelis of using it as a political bludgeon.

As for the comparison with Andropov - hopefully it will be a similar transitional figure, to give us a realistic Palestenian "Gorbachev" after old Arafat bites it.

Realistic? No. But there is a chance now that did not exist prior to this. A chance for at least a little democracy to creep into the Thugocracy that now rules Palestine.

Peres pisses me off too.

It is a testament to how badly the Israelis want peace that they would continue to grasp at straws like Abu since there is nothing better in sight.

OldSpook,

In claiming that the actual deaths were inflated (less than 1 million instead of 6 million) Abu Mazen IS denying the Holocaust!

I hate to say it, but Sharon is just as guilty as Peres as whitewashing “Abu Mazen” as the Oslo criminal Peres.

If the Jews will not marginalize this cretin, how can we expect the Arabists at the State Department to treat him as a pariah.

This whole situation is playing eerily similarly to Oslo. What is the definition of insanity again. “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results.

I saw reports today that Silvan Shalom (new Israeli Foreign Minister) stated that they will give Mazen 1-2 monts to stop all terror. Maybe this was Sharon’s secret aim all along, but he has now raised the bar in the minds of even the most pro-Israel people who are not informed about Mazen’s recent past.

It is like the acceptance of the notion of a Palestinian state, once the cat is out of the bag, the details of the conditions upon the Palestinians become meaningless. The fact of a Palestinian state is still being debated in Israel, but it is sad to say is fait accompli in the US.

The problem with “giving ‘em enough rope,” is that sometimes the hangman doesn’t show up.

Israelis should be up in arms about this reshuffling of deck chairs on the titanic known as Palestinian reform, but they are playing along to their detriment, and eventually their ruses will be irrevocable.

Oldspook:

Mazen not only minmizes the number killed, he claims that it was a zionist plot to kill them. That is Arab conspiracy theory 101 and is a denial of the holocaust palin and simple.

A bit OT

Frances (574 posts)
Apr-01-03, 10:32 PM (ET)
59. It sounds to me as though it is possible that
the marines tried to rescue all of twelve, but that eleven were killed in the attempt, and one survived with multiple wounds.
Remove | Alert Edit | Reply | Top

IndianaGreen (16619 posts)
Apr-01-03, 10:36 PM (ET)
Reply to post #59
62. That's a botched rescue!
I can't believe we are that inept!

Those are two posts on democraticunderground.com pertaining to rescue of Pvt. Jessica Lynch being rescued.

A lot of the other posts had this flavor: Well, we can look forward to the Shrub administration flaunting this pretty girl as a success of the war.

Are they really that fucking stupid over there?

20 year old stuff.

No one (pro-Zionist) is going to convince the rest of the world and even America that the guy is far worse than Arafat...and overt action to sabotage the coming peace process by the Israel lobby in the USA going to Congress to block the Administration will be seen as Israel being an obstacle and willing to do anything to keep it's Colonies and the 35 year military occupation going...

The Roadmap will proceed. If you want something other than 2-state, you will have to present a viable alternative, and saying "status quo is not that alternative. The US regular back up of Israel has cost Americans ~135 billion in our treasure flowing to Israel over the years, cost us diplomatically...and strategically. There won't be many more years with America as Israel's friend if the urge to expand the Settlements and retain more important than borders and peace and ISrael, not the Pals are seen as the true intransigents.

I was told a few weeks ago by who I thought to be a very reliable source that the IDF had mazen's bio on their web site complete with incriminating statements he had made concerning the Shoah. The upshot was the IDF were told to remove this information.
(Perhaps someone here might know if this is true or false?)
However it seems since there has been a complete blackout concerning the real abu mazen by main stream media and Israeli politicians. Until of course our brilliant Michael Freund wrote this remarkable piece.

Bottom line, we should never forget the tragic misstep in history when arafat was resurrected, sanitized and re-packaged.
Here we are so many years later (and much wiser)
--->to witness the same misstep once again.

(16 ) J. Lichty

I hate to say it, but Sharon is just as guilty as Peres as whitewashing “Abu Mazen” as the Oslo criminal Peres.

I hate to say it, but you are right!

If the Jews will not marginalize this cretin, how can we expect the Arabists at the State Department to treat him as a pariah.

Not to make excuses but I think Sharon has himself
boxed in a corner he truly does not want to be in.
To marginalize mazen is the right
thing to do but it would mean political suicide for Sharon.
He has also made promises to Bush. Promises he
should never have made but is forced to keep.

As far as the state department is concerned, they are righteously sanctimonious! Nothing Israel would do could please them, except the unthinkable.

you went on to say:
"This whole situation is playing eerily similarly to Oslo. What is the definition of insanity again. “Doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
Except this replay (G-d forbid) could prove fatal.

off topic but i just seen the BBC interview a marine from san francisco who refused to fight during the interview he said he joined the military because he wanted to connect with people and when he was recruited he wasn't told about the violent aspect of the military. How do you respond to somthing like that ?

#21,

With a court martial.

#21 Angelus

You bury him. The chap's brain-dead, there's nothing you can do.

All I got to say is hold your nose, folks. We're going down the roadmap to hell with this guy. The main question is how far we'll get in spite of the terrorism.

ploome:

abu Mazen doesnt have to like Jews or Israel ... he simply has to be a pragmatist, and hopefully want some peace and economic security for the arabs.

He has to inhale an entire can of Zyklon-B, and prove to the rest of us that it's just flea and tick powder.

He'd make a fine prime minister, of East Palestine (jordan).

Now, if only his amalekite shababs and masked goons could get organized enough to destroy the british created hashemite entity of Jordan . . .

It'll come to it - just wait and see . . . sooner or later, jordan becomes a 'palestinian' state, and there will be no justification, no matter how morally twisted, for a pal state on the non viable territories of gaza and the desert like 'west bank'.

With so few competent, talented, and psychologically well-adjusted Arabs in the Middle East, Israel and the U.S. simply have to take what they can get in terms of Arab leaders. Mazen's probably a slight improvement over the other barbaric, savage, primitive subhumans in the region, and Peres and Powell realize this. So they whitewash his background, what can you do?

May I suggest laying the smack down?

There will never be an independent Palestinian state *next* to Israel. If Israel continues to exist, the Palestinians will *need* Israel to administer the disputed terrorities so that the Palestinians have someone to blame for their abject failure, misery, and incompetence. If the Palestinians had to stand on their own, their complete incompetence and lack of achievement would be in sharp contrast to Israel's remarkable cultural, intellectual, and technological achievements. This would cause too much shame for the Palestinians to handle. The Palestinians will only ever accept a state in place of Israel, not next to Israel.

Given that this is completely indisputable, Israel needs to violently knock the Palestinians out of their collective delusion of being able to drive the Jews into the sea. Or at the very least transfer the motherfuckers.

Arabs/Muslims = playa-haters.

"Ma’ariv’s intelligence reporter, Alex Doron, disclosed the identity of Abu Mazen’s Muscovite tutor: described by former American Secretary of State Alexander Haig as “an enemy both of the United States and Israel.” The dramatis personae is none other than former Soviet KGB Chief and Russian Federation Foreign Minister and Premier—Yevgeny Primakov!

Primakov, a long standing intimate of Iraq’s Saddam Hussein, was Soviet President Michael Gorbachev’s envoy to Iraq during the 1991 Gulf conflict and progenitor of the Saddam-Arafat axis. In this respect, it is imperative to digest (UNSCOM) Richard Butler’s disclosures in Saddam Defiant (2000) “concerning Primakov’s relationship with the Iraqi regime. I received intelligence reports which indicated that Primakov had been receiving payoffs from Iraq … my sources confirmed details of the payments, the times, the amounts, and the accounts to which they were sent… Russia’s foreign minister was seeking to bury known facts that were essential to the disarming of Saddam: not only for reasons of Russian political interest but also, apparently, for personal gain.”

Hence the world’s current Iraqi predicament is rooted in Primakov’s ubiquitous machinations. Consequently, now is certainly not the time for indulging alluring overtures from Primakov’s protégé, Abu Mazen, undoubtedly programmed to charter the Russian-designed Road Map for the Middle East in general, and for Israel in particular."

- Prof. Paul Eidelberg, "Abu Mazen" - March 17/03

(correction to previous post: - co-authored with Prof. Wolf Pearlman)

#21 Angelus

That is just staggering. Didn't the rifle give the game away? Or did he think that was for eating the bolognese?
Who interviews these muppets when they apply? Barbra Streisand?

If the guy still believes what he wrote in 1982 then he will never be able to honestly accept Israel's right to exist. Right now he is Arafat's marionette, but Arafat isn't immortal, believe it or not. Let's hope that when Abu Mazen succeeds Arafat he will be a realist, not an idealist.

Despite the frenzy in the press to whitewash Abu Mazen I don't think anybody really has high expectations for this man. The Oslo catastrophe has disillusioned even the most fanatical peaceniks.

Ranbutan :

do you feel a little shoddy when you try to paint a country the size of New Jersey, with a population of 6 million, which is 9 miles wide at the middle and surrounded by 350,000 enemies on all sides as an imperial power? Or do you actually see it this way? Do you realize that Israel's military nerve center is within walking distance from the West Bank? Israel is not a Great Britain ruling over India. Israel exists at the margin of survival.

Anyone whose opinion is worth a shekel knows the history of the territories and understands a little geography, enough to understand that the picture you try to paint is detached fromm reality.

What's an alternative to a 2-state solution you ask? Autonomy for the Palestinians and an effective wall. This is what's going to happen. Whether the Palestinian territories are then called a "state" or something else is pretty immaterial. Either this or the status quo, with an effective wall. Then the Palestinians might try to break the ice in desperation and declare a state unilaterally. This will result in Israel annexing parts of the West Bank and Gaza, so it's unlikely.

Good borders are not made arbitrarily. Good borders must be grounded in reality, not political considerations. What is preventing the emergence of a Palestinian state is only partly resistance by Israel. Other forces are at play. Real, secure, permanent borders cannot be arbitrarily set, even if both parties agree on them. They are determined by geography, economics, demographic dynamics, and other factors. Oslo was too ambitious, it created instability by giving the incomparably weaker party too much too soon. The separation which Oslo created could not stand the test of time, it was artificial, not natural. The 1967 borders are not defensible. Intifada II is a correction of the mistakes of this unnatural division, it was bound to come sooner or later because Oslo was flawed on many levels. The makers of Oslo did not understand that Israeli military presence throughout the territories, with all it's bad consequences, was necessary for peace. The occupation was a necessity for stability and peace, and thats why it was grudgingly reimposed against the will of the Israeli population and government after September 2000.

A 2 state solution is similarily flawed because it would create a very dysfunctional state which will not be economically or politically stable. It will be a poverty stricken hornets nest of terrorism, a Damacles sword over Israel. Again, there will be violence and again the IDF will be forced by events, not ideology or imperial ambition, to reoccupy the territory. Most imporantly, there is just no natural border between the West Bank and the rest of Israel geographically. You can build walls until both the Israeli and the Palestinians will be living in ghettos and still there will be no alternative to the present of the IDF at strategic points in the West Bank.

But this is all hypothetical. The situation right now is that the Palestinians are not willing to accept a demilitarized state. Israel cannot accept an armed Palestinian state, that is an axiom. And no one will be able to force Israel to accept an armed Palestinian state in the West Bank. Add to this the issue of water rights, which both Israel and the Palestinians must share, add the strategic need for Israeli military presence in the Jordan Valley and a million other issues and you have a situation for which there can be no permanent settlement. If borders are drawn again, they will meet the same fate as Oslo. Intifada III will lead to another reoccupation.

It all boils down to a simple truth: there is one state with two peoples, one of which is suicidal and hell-bent on waging war against the other to the end. The situation will be resolved when the Arabs embrace mutual existence with the Jewish state. Then we can start drawing borders which will stand and will lead to peace, not war. There is no chance that this will happen in our lifetime.

Anyway, here's a candid question:

Do you think that simply returning to the 1967 borders and dividing Jerusalem will give Israel peace? If not, why the hell should Israel do it?

Or are you one of those who think that Israel must cease to exist in the long term, and anything that will hasten Israel's demise is preferable?

#31 typo. 350,000 should be 350 million.

"The Zionist movement," Abu Mazen wrote, "led a broad campaign of incitement against the Jews living under Nazi rule, in order to arouse the government's hatred of them, to fuel vengeance against them, and to expand the mass extermination."

this is from a doctoral dissertation? a PhD from one of the many satellite campuses of HJU (Hate Jew U) ranks well below a sally struthers home learning course in the realm of scholarship. the national enquirer is more learned than this garbage. I wonder who they have in mind to pick up the tab for bankrolling this failed-state-in-the-making? the only export I've seen of the palis is the car bomb. i'm envisioning all the ways the UN can screw this up, as they have been for the last 50+ years. I wish all good things to the state and people of Israel.

Ranbutan (#19)

Can you stop behaving like a troll please? You're so full of it.

Guys, you realize he's trolling, right?

The point, of course, that has been completely missed in all this is that Arafat should not be 'appointing' anyone. Elections were to have been held in February and out of that would have come an ELECTED successor to Arafat, thus establishing, AT LAST, a truly democratically elected government for the Palestinians which, once again, was one of the reqirements of the UN.

Of course, Arafat was never going to let go of the reins and used the interminable negotiations in the lead-up to the Iraqi War to wriggle out of the UN demands that he hold an election and proceed with a democratically elected government before anymore aid was forthcoming.

Having successfully used the smokescreen of the pre-war negotiations to distract the international community, he also picked the most maleable and biased candidate he could, who would do as he's told and allow Arafat to retain full control of negotiations and security and FINANCES!

So far no one in Washington or at the UN has told him it won't wash. They've all been too busy elsewhere. And with Arafat, if you don't tell him immediately, if a week goes by without someone sending him a "NO", he'll start acting as if it's fait accompli, which it will be.

Trumped by the weasel from Hell again!

#31 Nik: HEAR! HEAR!

I must say however, that I believe the Pals will get their sovereign terror-state within the next three to five years. Whether this state is viable or not depends, in my view, on how many of the militant PA and Hamas "executives" disappear over this period either by attrition (Arafat is 73) or by IDF operations. The US and Europe will also have to embark on a thorough de-Nazification of Pal school curriculums to ensure the culture of genocide/suicide ends, more or less, with this generation.

My concern, is that there has never been a sovereign state in modern history which has been denied the right to arm itself. We will have to see what the Roadmap has to say about this but I think a militarized Palestine must be a dealbreaker for the Israelis.

From the Who - For the Israelis - "...and I get ooon my knees and prayyye...We don't get fooled again"...

I'm honestly a little concerned about what the new "Roadmap" from the Bush Administration will be. The talk of it that has come out keeps referencing the June 24th speech, and if I remember both the date and the speech right, I hope it might be easier on the Israelis than the Palestinians. Granted I will admit this new roadmap might be the first thing I truly disagree with from the Bush Administration. I honestly have never figured out where the anyone really should have any say in how Israel handles its internal issues, but then again, I guess Israel doesn't fall under a standard set of rules when it comes to international politics.

On that related matter, I got an exchange student from Morrocco to say that the reason a lot of people don't like the USA is from our standing by Israel. So basically I got him to admit that a plurality of Arabs were xenophobic racists who can't stand someone better than themselves :)

It's irrelevant what Abu Mazen thinks or says since Arafat has refused to give up power and authority anyway. Arafat still insists on keeping control of security and negotiations.

There is much pretense that there has been a change for the better, but there has not been any significant change at all (let alone for the better) if Arafat does not cede power and authority.

First the terrorism and incitement has to stop. If people want to pretend that Abu Mazen is willing and able to do this, let him have a chance at doing it.

First things first. If your neighbor insists on murdering members of your family, you cannot proceed to do business-as-usual with him. It cannot be accepted. And it cannot be rewarded. And it cannot be appeased. The terrorism and incitement have to stop, and that must happen first.

"I'll move myself and my family aside
If we happen to be left half alive
I'll get all my papers and smile at the sky
Though I know that the hypnotized never lie."

won't get fooled again.

(39) EE

First things first. If your neighbor insists on murdering members of your family, you cannot proceed to do business-as-usual with him. It cannot be accepted. And it cannot be rewarded. And it cannot be appeased. The terrorism and incitement have to stop, and that must happen first.

I agree. I wish it 'could' be that simple, however what 'should be' and the 'actual outcome' is what awakens my stomach acids.

(34) zulubaby

Guys, you realize he's trolling, right?

Yes.
Ranbutan really pushed my buttons...but I made
a rational decision to ignore him.
He is not worth my time.

Of course he's a moderate! Extremists deny that the Holocaust ever happened~ Even he doesn't go that far...

*rolls eyes*

If you create a two state solution, even with a wall, what is to stop the terrorists in Arab Palestine from continuing to fire mortars, rockets etc. into Israel.
i.e. Over the above mentioned wall.

You won't be able to blame the Pali-arab government then, because all you'll get is, "Even Israel couldn't stamp out terrorism so how can the poor Pali-arabs with only a fraction of the armed forces of Israel do it".

Of course the Islamic Republics of Europe will support them 100%. France will probably sign a mutual defense treaty and station nuclear missiles inside Pali-arabia.

Ergo terrorism will not stop after a Pali-arab republic exists, just as it did not prior to 1967.

The negotiation with Terrorfat is a waste of time because either:

1 He does not control Hamas etc. and you need to negotiate with someone who does.

-or

2 He does control them, but allows them to go on killing anyway. In which case he is a liar and no peace treaty signed by him, or his kind, is worth the toilet roll it is written on.

Religion of Peace™ claims six more 'infidels':

CNN
April 2, 2003

DAVAO, Philippines -- A bomb went off Wednesday in this city's wharf area Wednesday killing at least six people and injuring several more in what the military suspects is a terror attack staged by a Muslim separatist group.

A Philippines armed forces spokesman told CNN's Maria Ressa that the bomb was planted by a row of food stalls and restaurants near the entrance gate of a passenger terminal on the wharf. Ressa reported that there were several people in the area waiting waiting to get on a ferry.

The blast took place at 7:00 p.m. local time (6:00 a.m. EST), and it is the second attack in Davao in a month. On March 4, an attack took place outside Davao Airport killed 21 people.

The city's mayor provided the casualty figures.

The military blamed that attack on the Moro Islamic Liberation Front (MILF), the largest Muslim separatist group in the Philippines.

Ressa has reported that intelligence documents from half a dozen countries suggest the MILF has links Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terror network.

The Philippine government is attempting to restart peace talks with MILF.

[Link: www.cnn.com...]

#41 selpaw
I mention this just to have a little sanity-check on the starting phase of the Roadmap plans.

There is a widely prevalent fallacy in assuming that if a situation is difficult, then a change in the situation has got to be better. Taint so. The first intifada involving rock-throwing was difficult, and the "remedy" was to set the stage for the present intifada, the one involving suicide bombers. The second intifada is difficult, and the "remedy" being pushed is to set the stage for a far worse intifada, by giving the jihadis the protection of sovereignty.

With sovereignty, the third intifada would involve a safe haven for terrorists of all kinds, including Hamas, Islamic Jihad, Hezbollah, and al-Qaeda. The terrorist state would, with sovereignty, enjoy an unprecedented level of protection from the international community, including France and the UN. Any kinds of weapons could be imported into a sovereign terrorist state, even including WMD. And troops could be imported too, by a sovereign terrorist state. And Israel would be prevented from any kind of active defense.

The terrorism and incitement needs to end. And some kind of "denazification" program has to be done to change the Pali society from its fixation on killing Jews and eliminating Israel. This has to be done before the Palis are given extraordinary power to wage war by importing their neighbors' power and blocking Israel from active defense -- that's the power of sovereignty.

The first rule of the Roadmap makers should be: first do no harm.

I don't think it will sit well with the US voters that Israel's loyalty is being rewarded with betrayal and Palestinians treachery is being rewarded with a state.

Come 2004, it's Bush's election to lose. The pro-Israel voters are watching this carefully. And I don't mean just the Jewish voters.

JG

Just to add to this:

Arafat is a corrupt dictator like to the rest of the puppets that rule the middle east, I hope the US administration are as quick to impose democracy on states like Saudi Arabia, Jordan etc.

I think the US should eliminate take away all WMD from the middleeast including Israel, who has destroyed the harmony enjoyed in the holy lands for hundreds of years by the Jews, Christians & Muslims.

As for Israel, it is an illegal state that has no legitimacy to exist under international law. It's rulers are right wing Nazis someof who believe the Palestinain people are worse than dogs. I believe Zionism is a black mark on the nobel religion of Abraham, David & Moses. Zionism should never be mixed with Judasim.

#47

Troll alert

JG

Ignore button operational on #47.

JG. I guess I should behave and respect the rules on trolls.
My *FANTASY* for (47)
; - ))

Read:

[Link: pilger.carlton.com...]

Troll, Hah, better Troll than a right wing Nazi OR a Jew hater.

Blair,

You're all three.

John Pilger has the credibility of the same caliber as Peter Arnett.

JG

JG,

I am not a Nazi, Nor a Jew Hater.

You seem to have all the qualities of Hitler, DO not want to hear anything, are not willing to accept different opinions, and would probably like to kill anyone who does njot agree with you. Did you have family in Germany in the 1940's ??

DO you HATE Iraqi's , answer that if you have the balls !!

To Blair Force One: I've been giving you plenty of rope to hang yourself.

You probably think you're anonymous.

But here's a call on the clue phone for you, you anti-Semitic pig.

I traced your IP, and I know you work for a high profile brokerage firm on the east coast. Or at least, you're using an account of theirs.

I wonder if your boss would like to know about these comments you're posting at LGF, on the company dime?

Haha, good one, Charles!

Thanks for posting this article, I hadn't read much about the guy, but this confirms my fears that he's just another Arafat thug. I think it's disgusting that many Americans (and others) see his appointment as a step in the right direction. We (rightly) punish those who terrorize the US, and we have no right to tell Sharon to negotiate with those who terrorize Israel.

"Moderate Palestinean leader."
An oxymoron and myth.

... sound of crickets ...

#31 Nik

do you feel a little shoddy when you try to paint a country the size of New Jersey, with a population of 6 million, which is 9 miles wide at the middle and surrounded by 350,000 enemies on all sides as an imperial power? Or do you actually see it this way?

There was once a Central European power in the 1930's that was only the size of Oregon, surrounded by powerful enemies that outnumbered them, with "indefensible borders" standing athwart the Central European plain. They were confronted with a radical idealogy that had damaged their country in the past. This idealogy's "true believers" had created havoc in the region and whole countries had fallen to it. Like Israel, this beleagured Central European power had suffered in the past in grievous wars, and particularly to the East...sought the lands their people had occupied in ancient times for resources, living space, buffer land for added security, and needed natural resources.

Lets just say their premises and - beyond all human ken - their methodology for realizing their objectives - were wrong.

Now to the present.

Most of the world operates on less than perfect borders. Many nations are fringed by powerful enemies. Where cleansing happens, the nations that have done so usually come equipped with a full quiver of reasons, historical grievanaces, and so on that "completely justify" their actions in their minds.

In the case of Israel...it lives with danger...but lives with knowledge that it can defend itself as long as it has the support and ample funding coming from a powerful nation. But the Colonies and a 36-year long occupation and oppression of the indigenous people to maintain a corrosive status quo has eroded support even in the powerful nation it has lobbied so adroitly over the years.

That nation, the USA, partially because of the serious harm to it's interests caused by always siding withm, and supporting Israel - has finally bought in to what even more than half of the Israeli population believes...that 2-State is inevitable and either most the Settlers must go or somehow remain and live under a resentful sovereign Palestinian population.

There are ways to be secure within a Treaty. Prohibition causes barring any Arab army or Air Force elements from entering the Palestine Nation. Land penalties where land is ceeded to Israel if Palestinian terrorists continue attacks. High security border barriers guarding Israel's narrow midsection. An insistance that the Palestine Nation be barred from possessing offensive weaponry larger than small arms...or Israel can invoke self-defense treaty clauses. An insistance that all nearby Arab nations recognize the existence of Israel and agree to stop fomenting hatred of any people falling outside the people of the Ummah. And so on.

But the status quo is unacceptable to anyone in the world but Expansionist Zionists...and they are a minority even in the Jewish community...and radical Christian fundamentalists seeking a path to Armegeddeon to hasten the Rapture...also thankfully a very small minority of Christians.

So the Nation of Palestine is coming, and no amount of foot-stomping will stop it. Rather than stonewall and tell the world how much more worthy you are of the land and water of Canaan than the Pals...the proponents of "Greater Israel" should realize that it means more than acreage under Jewish control...and work on making the Roadmap provide for a secure Israel that provides effective separation and partition of the peoples that both have valid claims to the land they have fought over.

Threatening US politicians with consequences if they don't back Expansion of a foreign country...or giving up on the US..effectively saying..."we don't want your help if it means losing our Hebron condos built on seized land"...well, that would be very counterproductive.

#47 troll says, "As for Israel, it is an illegal state that has no legitimacy to exist under international law.

LoL!

Silly troll, laws don't make states, armies make states.

You got a legal problem with Israel, take it up with the IDF's JAG.

Like Israel, this beleagured Central European power had suffered in the past in grievous wars, and particularly to the East...sought the lands their people had occupied in ancient times for resources, living space, buffer land for added security,
and needed natural resources.

If you're referring to Germany, you're omitting just one small detail...

Germany has existed for centuries and Germany was RE-arming itself to the teeth to attack. Israel was endangered from Day 1 and Israel has no choice but to be armed for defense.

Absolutely no equivalent at all. Just another B.S. from you that's wasting the reader's time.

JG

FOR THE LAST TIME I am Not anti semetic, NOR Against Jews, what are you all on ?

I didn't think that in the land of the free, there was so much restriction on opinion.

Charles, Guess again ?

#47 Blair force One~ is the typical left in today's Britain - he talks of non-sensical international law - yet when will England acknowledge the treaties it signed with the Cornish in 1337 and 1508?

(54) Charles
Thank you so much.
You truly impress me on many levels.

I traced your IP, and I know you work for a high profile brokerage firm on the east coast. Or at least, you're using an account of theirs.

The anti-Semitic pig wrote:

Charles, Guess again ?

No guessing involved, even though you've now logged on with a different account, in a transparent attempt to cover your tracks.

Since you've chosen to deny you were using this account, here is the WHOIS record for the IP address that all your previous rants were posted from. I have records of every one.

Final results obtained from whois.arin.net.

Results:
OrgName: Lehman Brothers
OrgID: LEHMAN-1
Address: 101 Hudson St., 38th Floor
City: Jersey City
StateProv: NJ
PostalCode: 07302
Country: US
NetRange: 192.147.47.0 - 192.147.64.255
CIDR: 192.147.47.0/24, 192.147.48.0/20, 192.147.64.0/24
NetName: SHEARSON2
NetHandle: NET-192-147-47-0-1
Parent: NET-192-0-0-0-0
NetType: Direct Assignment
NameServer: NS.LEHMAN.COM
NameServer: NS2.LEHMAN.COM
NameServer: NS3.LEHMAN.COM
NameServer: NS4.LEHMAN.COM

Comment:
RegDate: 1992-05-12
Updated: 2002-03-01
TechHandle: ZL75-ARIN
TechName: Lehman Brothers
TechPhone: +1-201-524-2000
TechEmail: internic@lehman.com

so, any truth to the rumour that is held in egypt, turkey, etc. that after the democracy is put forth in iraq (whenever that happens) that a palestinian state will be created, with a natural separation between it and israel? (jordan?)

just some food for thought, coming from the perspective of some colleagues of mine who are from the middle eastern portion of the world.

(64)Charles, you are good!
Stay hot on the trail of that anti- Semitic worthless shred of pig meat.
Possibly when you have had your fill of him, at the moment of vomiting him out, I hope you turn him in.

Blair Force One:

If Charles doesn't call Lehman Brothers, I will. Enjoy.

Ranbutan -

Instead of answering the my simple question you go off on another rant about the evil Zionist cabal etc. etc. etc. The colonies etc.etc.

Why not answer the question instead of repeating the SOS ad nauseam?

You're basically saying Israel should rely on the Palestinians' willingness to abide by treaties. What happened with Oslo? Arafat did not abide by the agreements, he did not and still does not do anything to stop terrorism. Israel went back into areas under the PA's control because it's the only way to protect it's citizens from terror.

An insistance that the Palestine Nation be barred from possessing offensive weaponry larger than small arms...or Israel can invoke self-defense treaty clauses.

So when the Palestinians start Intifada III Israel will once again be forced to reoccupy the territory. But this time there will be many more hurdles Israel will have to overcome since it'll be invading a sovereign nation. And we'll be back to square one,.

The Roadmap will proceed. If you want something other than 2-state, you will have to present a viable alternative

Ranbutan - Are you presenting a viable alternative?? The 2-state solution cannot be a viable alternative until the Palestinians give up on war against Israel.

I'll ask again: will a return to 1967 borders provide peace for Israel? Will Israel get anything in return for compromising it's security and dislocating thousands of it's citizens? And will the US really be better off with a less secure Israel and a Palestinian terror state?

It certainly did get quiet around this topic. What happened to "Blair Force One"?

I'll be contacting Lehman Brothers about this one later today. I'm sure they're going to take a pretty dim view of what this creep has been posting here.

Sorry guys was a bit tied up, I do have a life appart from sittign in chat rooms (didn't realize you missed me so much).

Any who, what is all the arguments about. Who here disagrees that Arafat & Sharon are causing the middle east problems.

Sharon has been held responsible by AN ISRAELI court over Sabra & Shatila, where thousands on innocent civillians were butchered.

Please let's not get carried away with childish chat, if you have any facts state them, IF YOU DON'T HURL ABUSE.

There are is a world of knowledge out there, and gues what more than one opinion, and MAYBE the one we follow may not be correct.

P.S. Charles, just follow the yellow brick road, Good luck.

Sorry guys was a bit tied up, I do have a life appart from sittign in chat rooms (didn't realize you missed me so much).

Any who, what is all the arguments about. Who here disagrees that Arafat & Sharon are causing the middle east problems.

Sharon has been held responsible by AN ISRAELI court over Sabra & Shatila, where thousands on innocent civillians were butchered.

Please let's not get carried away with childish chat, if you have any facts state them, IF YOU DON'T HURL ABUSE.

There are is a world of knowledge out there, and gues what more than one opinion, and MAYBE the one we follow may not be correct.

P.S. Charles, just follow the yellow brick road, Good luck.

It certainly did get quiet around this topic. What happened to "Charles"?

Did you get any where with your call...

(Guess again, and again and again)

I hope the cloning goes better than with DOLLY the sheep.
[Link: www.itv.com...]

Charles...You know I smelled something
very foul like a piece of PUTREFIED PIG MEAT...!
And it led me here.

Quiet? Maybe. But that doesn't mean nothing is happening. Received from Lehman Brothers:

Charles,

Thank you for contacting us. We will look into this matter and get back to you. We may request web server and other logs to help validate your information.

Regards,
___

Lehman Brothers Information Security

Since the troll posted more than 2 dozen comments using the Lehman account, I think they'll have plenty to work with.

Any who, what is all the arguments about. Who here disagrees that Arafat & Sharon are causing the middle east problems.

Me.

Sharon has been held responsible by AN ISRAELI court over Sabra & Shatila, where thousands on innocent civillians were butchered.

Indirectly responsible. He should have known, but didn't. That's the "ISRAELI" court's ruling.

Please let's not get carried away with childish chat, if you have any facts state them, IF YOU DON'T HURL ABUSE.

Practice what you preach, buddy.

Fact: Sharon was not found "responsible" for Sabra & Shatila.

Fact: Israel is not an "illegal state." The UN established the legality of Israel. "Illegal states" do not have a seat at the UN.

Sorry for feeding the troll. No more.

Hey Nicky,

Just to clarify a few things, I have not hurled abuse at people. If so I think you have missunderstood me, I am simply trying to understand how you guys can be so onsided in your thinking ?

Sharon was found responsible for Sabra & Shatilla, I'll get you the proof (please give me some time).

Israel is an illegal state from the point that it continues to ignore UN resolutions and has been protected by the US veto (will get proof soon). It conintues to build on land that does not belong to it. Funny how the US invades Iraq when they take over other peoples land but say nothing to Israel.

Please DO NOT take everything to be an attack, I am simply trying to understand your point of view through discussion. I'm sure you guys would like me and indeally the reast of the world to agree with you.

Only by discussion can the people of the world begin to understand one another.

The Jewish people have been mistreated so have the Palestinians, so have the Iraqis, so have the American, etc.

All nations and religions have GOOD & BAD in them. Lets try to work on the good.

P.S. Sorry I have not provided any proof, I am a bit busy, will have more time soon.

Charles-
I must tell you one thing which particularly impresses me about you (out of many!) is that you not only stand tall for your convictions but you follow through to the end.
It's all about character!

Can you say, "Backpedaling furiously?"

Just a reminder -- all of the comments it left are saved.

This man is UNSUITABLE for the job. All America has to do is say NO..and mean it. We can see what he said and so can Bush and Daddy Bush and Daddy Bushes friends, who are behind this. (poor Prez.) Now..if the idea is to trade Israel as a payback for Iraq..then...If NOT..Dont stick this antisememtic bas(*()*d in a so called peace process. Simple..duh...what else can I say?

Little fig leaf heard today as the concept of the upcoming TRADE of Israel is revealed..Someone just mentioned the Irish/English thing. Thats supposed to mean that we arent trading JUST Israel...ah...huh...yeah right...give me a break...Cant they come up with a better COVER than that?

Reading more here..Ill like to remind youall...that THE STATE DEPT. MAKES FOREIGN POLICY..up to now..that is. This can be made to change. You can change this by shining a light on their decades old antagonism against Jews and then the predictable antagonism against Israel. People in the State Dept. that have to do with this issue are called ARABISTS. They are also in the CIA..the NSA...Defense...Commerece(believe it or not) and so on. Say NO to Arabists running our Foreign Policy. Talk about your Lobby...pffttt.

Lots and lots of people that are FOB..are and were State Dept. People. As with the Marines and the CIA..the motto is "Once In -Never Out". So if you want to stop this slide to a Terrorist State in Fulll that WILL be funded to the hilt, much more than it has been..Say NO to the State Dept. We didnt elect them ...not in this Administration or the previous Administration or all the other Administrations.