Good, I'm sick of their portrayal as these angels that were attacked by the Serbs out of the blue, and the claim that they are libelled when so accused. Gordon.

I'm sick of seeing the words "muslim" and "holy" in the same sentence.

WTF?!

Meanwhile, relatives of U.S. troops visiting Iraq pressed their agenda to meet with leaders of the occupation authority, hoping to voice their opposition to the U.S.-led occupation.

One mother held back tears while looking at U.S. soldiers guarding the entrance of the Habbaniyah military base in Baghdad.

"They are so young. This is not for them. ... They look just like my boy," said Annabelle Valencia, whose daughter, 24, and son, 22, are both based in Iraq.

from Workers demolishing Saddam busts.

Who wants to bet they're from the Bay Area?

--Sneer quote alert--

The Beeb's done it again.

'Brutal crimes' of Bosnia Muslims

Surely these poor, bedraggled, snow-white Muslims are innocent!

/bouncing off padded walls

They are so young... They dont belong there...

so, um, why did they join the army, and why are they in a combat unit?

seriously - you join the army, you may have to fight.

"They are so young. This is not for them. ... They look just like my boy," said Annabelle Valencia, whose daughter, 24, and son, 22, are both based in Iraq.

They're adults who freely made the decision and the sacrifice to leave family, friends, home, jobs, and higher education for a time in order to serve their country and its ideals, and this moonbat thinks she's doing them some sort of favor by cooing over them.

Oh well, if she's not proud of her own children's selflessness, I will be.

ritual beheadings

If it smells like a murder cult...

Muslims committed atrocities? I don't believe it!

'Mujahedin,' or Muslim holy warriors

I thought islam was the religion of peace, why do they need "holy" warriors?

Not to be channelling Gordon here, but IIRC all sides, especially the Serbs, did all kinds of nasty stuff there.

It doesn't excuse jihadis beheading people, but ( I'm not a Balkan expert) isn't it possible that the Serb assaults against the Muslims drew in the radical jihadi types?

Reuters, the Jew demonizers, at it again!
Check this AP story. Now, check this Reuters story about the same boy.
Magically his last name changes, and his age goes down three years. Don't close the windows yet!
Even better: muslims always pray exclusively in the direction of Mecca. Check the direction of the arabic script on the flag in both pictures. Yup, the boys in the second picture are praying away from Mecca, which means that Reuters staged this photo.
Assholes.

#7 I remeber my first day of Kindergarten, when my mom dropped me off, she was crying and waving and all that mom stuff. I rember being so embarassed. Can you imagine how these 'kids' feel? I can hear the taunts of mama's boy now.

BTW, if you think the body might have been moved from its position in the first shot in order to be photographedin front of the children, and that they were probably facing Mecca, and this wasn't staged: look at the carpet. Where the empty space between the pillars narrows is always supposed to be aimed at Mecca, and your head goes there.
Oh yeah, and what happened to photography in mosques being haram? I guess it doesn't apply if you need propaganda.
Ed Moran, true dat. I was just pointing out that Gordon, in continuing to pretend that Bosnian muslims are all victim and unblemished, is full of it.

#5 ROP chappin'

BBC claims these guys are "innocent" with the exact same argument they last used to prove Ariel Sharon was "guilty."

Go figure.

Uh oh, this is where Gordo gets to play 10 questions.

1. Do you, evariste, regard ... etc, etc, etc.

I think we in the US were fed a simplified version of the Bosnia and Kosovo conflicts, ie Serbs=bad Muslims=victims. Some Bosnian Serbs did really bad things during the war, but there are also instances of Muslims doing the same things back. Cetainly there is no blameless party here, despite what some would have us believe.

#11 Evariste, I'd bet that after the reporters left, at least one of those "dead" boys got up and walked away.

#10 Ed Moran; you've done a good job of channelling me on this issue.

#1 Evariste: I expected this thread to attract all the raving Islamophobes to it like bears to a honey jar. You've started it right off the bat.

From Spencer's own Jihad Watch site:

"In Onward Muslim Soldiers I trace how Bosnia became a magnet for international jihadists in the 1990s, and explain how jihad ideology poisoned prospects for peace there, as it has in so many other places. Now it seems that some of the truth is coming to light."

Now I don't need to read Spencer's book (but I'll read it anyway, there may be more outrages within it) to know that he is a dishonest apologist for Serb ethnic cleansing. By his rights the Bosnian Muslims should have laid down like little lambs for slaughter instead of getting help from whatever source they could, and unfortunately that included foreign jihadis. To say that these jihadis prolonged the conflict is absurd. The only way they prolonged the conflict was by bolstering Bosnian Muslim forces and preventing the entire population to be massacred or deported by the Bosnian Serbs. Spencer destroys the overall validity of his thesis by carrying it to these extremes, and calls into question the motives and reasons behind his desperate attempt to paint Islam as evil NO MATTER WHAT.

From the Voice of America report:

"Prosecutors say at least 200 Bosnian Croat and Serb civilians were killed in Muslim attacks on Croat forces in central Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995."

I'll come back in a further thread with estimates of the number of Bosnian Muslim forces killed by the Bosnian Serbs and, for a while, the Bosnian Croats. Let's just say the number will be more than a bit greater than 200...

Right on time.

{sigh}

So much for this thread. Buh bye.

As for the Serbs' behavior drawing in the jihadis, I remember the calls to jihad for our brothers and sisters in al-bosina wal-hirsig (Bosnia-Herczegovina) posters started appearing on mosques' bulletin boards next to shashan (Chechnya) ones in Jordan in 1992. So it seems like jihadis were being recruited to be in the thick of it from the very start. I saw the recruiting bulletins firsthand, it's true.

#2 friend

I agree. Praise be to allan that we are out of holy "muslim holy month of bombadon."

#21

Wow, re the mosque graffiti: I just had a flashback of the Career Services Center's job announcements board at my alma mater. Except in Islamoworld it seems the "Opportunities" are more grisly and irreversible.

Ugh.

Gordon, let me see that I understand: you haven't read his book, but you know what he thinks about the Bosnian civil war? You cite one pretty neutral statement of fact (as opposed to an opinion), yet Mr Spencer is already an "apologist"?

In #21 I didn't realize Gordon was here yet, I was expounding for Ed Moran's benefit in #10.
Gordon, the point is that they aren't blameless, and that Spencer isn't "a dishonest apologist" any more than he would have had the Bosnian muslims "laid down like little lambs for the slaughter". Both sides did bad stuff. Sure. OK. I get that. But there's no way you're gonna get away with calling Spencer names like that without reading his book first.

ok..........mor OT

any Yale alumni here?

the latest fkn OUTRAGE

[Link: www.library.yale.edu...]

and my letter

Dear Sirs:

Regarding the "Eight images selected from an important collection of posters and photographs on the Palestinian Intifadah (uprising) in 1987 in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. "

[Link: www.library.yale.edu...]

Where are the images of bombed out busses on the streets of Jerusalem?

How about the slaughtered American students at Hebrew University, dismembered by the people who create the "important collection of posters and photographs"?

Jew body parts are not "important enough"?

2 friend

me too

#18 gordon

Prosecutors say at least 200 Bosnian Croat and Serb civilians were killed in Muslim attacks on Croat forces in central Bosnia-Herzegovina between 1992 and 1995."

More than two years ago, on 11 July 1995, the United Nations "safe area" of Srebrenica in eastern Bosnia was overrun by Bosnian Serb troops. Some 8,000 civilians, women, children and virtually the entire male population were systematically massacred during four days of carnage. They have been delivered to their executioners by the international community. It was the worst massacre on European soil since the Third Reich.

[Link: www.haverford.edu...]

I phonetically spelled the Arabic for Bosnia-Herzcegovina as al-bosina wal-hirsig. The last word is spelled and pronounced "hirsik", not "hirsig". Oops!

#20 thom

I'm with you, sport. Buh bye.

An interesting article, which doesn't entirely confirm a specific number of war dead from the Bosnian conflict (anywhere between 25,000 and 250,000), but provides some interesting discussion of why the figures are so unreliable, due to the conflicting motives of the three different parties:

[Link: www.radstats.org.uk...]

Any way you slice it, the number of Bosnian Muslim victims of Serb and Croat atrocities is many multiples of 200.

I need help today

i am getting depressed

#16 Josh - So true. You sure don't hear the media clamoring "two sides trapped in a mindless cycle of violence" when they report the Bosnian Muslim/Serb conflict.

#7, Palendine. That womans kids obviously joined up so that they could be part of a real family. They wanted to get as far from their possessive lunatic mommy as possible. Now she shows up like a scene from a cheap horror movie. Those two troops will be requesting reassignment to Afganistan to get her out of their lives. Her children are nothing but props in her "compassion play".

gordohead, regarding

Any way you slice it, the number of Bosnian Muslim victims of Serb and Croat atrocities is many multiples of 200.

remember, it is never enough

and there are never too many

It's too bad several of you are afraid to honestly debate this topic, instead of serving as an Islamophobic amen corner for whatever drivel appears.

#26

The third image (upper right, tagged "Declaration of Independence") looks like it was lifted from a 40's era Imperialist Japanese propaganda poster.

Kudos on the letter. Keep us posted on any response.

#35 Ploome: Am I interpreting your statement mean that any number of non-Muslim dead is too many and any number of Muslim dead is not enough?

ROP really chappin' my hide-it's not graffiti, it's glossy posters on the mosque bulletin boards, including the "Friday school" area. (I was forced to go to a Friday school for a couple of years). It requires the imam's permission to post things there. Oh, and that's not the least of it, I mean half the Friday sermons for years (multiple mosques, including the top mosque in Amman, masjid Abdallah, named for King Hussein's dad and generally regarded as the state's mouthpiece). I'm not including regular money drives for the jihadis to buy weapons, sermons, the peddlers outside the mosque (at the walkway in) selling pamphlets about jihad as you walked in and as you came out, etc etc.

#29 evariste

I phonetically spelled the Arabic for Bosnia-Herzcegovina as al-bosina wal-hirsig. The last word is spelled and pronounced "hirsik", not "hirsig". Oops!

yea I was going to call you on that!
/sarc off

By his rights the Bosnian Muslims should have laid down like little lambs for slaughter....

No they should not have laid down like lambs before the slaughter. Likewise this does not justify the muslims in the same brutal fashion.

...instead of getting help from whatever source they could, and unfortunately that included foreign jihadis. To say that these jihadis prolonged the conflict is absurd.

You are right they should have got help from the outside. France, Germany, and every other nation in Europe. The jihadi were not the only party that contributed to the blood bath dragging on as long as it did. The smug bastards of the EU should have put an end to it, or maybe the UN could have acted with more resolve. The world failed all the people of that region. But the fact remains the jihadis are not blameless.

Gordon, no one's afraid of debate, just of wasting time. Read the book if you're gonna talk shit about the author. Okay?

gee Gordoshit

you figured it out!

#11 and #13 evariste

haven't you ever heard that when we see something, it is actually reversed until the eye corrects the distortion. Maybe you just had a glitch somehow. I don't think Reuters or AP would such a thing.

/mmmm....these pills are good :-)

#39

Jihadi Career Fair? Ugh. How brisk was business, on average?

Here's an interesting piece about the Bosnian civil war. This whole issue is cloudy, but have a look anyway.

An interesting site, looking at "gender selective" mass killing. Also have a look at their page on "Honour" Killings.

#25 Evariste: Unlike the previous thread where I attacked Spencer, I am quoting words directly emanating from his personal word processor (I am assuming if it is on JihadWatch and is "posted by Robert" then he is the author). I promise to read the book, but if it contains statements like these which he is making, then I know what I will find, at least on the issue of Bosnia.

#28 Ralph: Srebenicza is only the most outrageous of the Bosnian Serb atrocities among Muslim populations, and if the 8,000 figure is correct, represents a 40 fold increase over the alleged Muslim war crimes defendants alone. There is some question about the 8,000 figure (other than Serb propagandists who deny the whole incident) from the Muslim commander of the besieged forces, who says the number should be lower. But it is suggested in one article I read that he might be deflating the number in order to reduce the magnitude of his own perceived incompetence.

By the way, I support these war crimes trials against Bosnian Muslims: if they are guilty, they should get the same kind of sentences that the Serb and Croat guilty parties have gotten. What I object to is the use by Robert Spencer and Charles of this event to force the Bosnian conflict through their Islamophobic prism.

#4 evariste 12/2/2003 01:41PM PST
Who wants to bet they're from the Bay Area?

No Bet. Certainty.
AFP reports Annabelle Valencia is from Tuscon, but she was picked to be part of the delegation by the group 'Global Exchange', which is based in - waaaait for it - San Francisco.

#36 Gordon - What is it that you want to debate? The atrocities were committed by both sides and go back centuries. When Tito was in power in the former Yugoslavia, he ruled with an iron fist and was able to control the simmering hostility. Do you honestly believe that if the Bosnian Muslims had the upper hand, they wouldn't have slaughtered the Serbs? I will never forget the quote I read from a little Muslim boy to an American soldier after Kosovo was liberated: "So, are you going to help us kill the Serbs?"

#43 Ploome: Well then, you are as bad in your own way as Hesiod, Noam Chomsky, any other LLL lunatic.

To: Evariste in re: the direction that Moslems pray ************************************************** ********** ~~~You state that they only pray toward mecca, would there ever be an occasion for an exception? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~~~When I was in Tucson, the night Bush started the attack on Baghdad, I remembered that Steve Emerson said that the Mosque on the U of A campus was the 1st cell created by Al-Qaida in the U.S. ~ I went to see if they were doing anything "interresting" the loonies from campus had gathered there so the Mosque guys let them in. ~ I went in also & a group of men were there praying toward the NORTH wall! ~ Do you have any explanation, most perplexed.

#49 David Simon: You have a very good point as to the tortured history of Balkan wars stretching back to: probably the end of the Roman Empire.

But the hatred these various groups have for each other is unrelated to the phenomenon of radical Islam, or due to the inherent evil of that religion. It would have happened if the Bosnian Muslims had remained Bogomils, a Christian sect which was persecuted and subject to inquisitional genocide at the hands of Catholic Croats and Orthodox Serbs prior to the Ottoman invasions. They converted to Islam then.

#47 Gordon

Dangit, yes, western society should hold itself to a higher standard. But ignoring the complex and ugly history of the Balkans (and the rest of eastern Europe) is to intentionally misunderstand the region. Talking about ongoing resentments between Islam and Christianity in this region is to see reality clearly. I don't think anyone hear doubts that massacring (a word?) innocents is just.

The pamphlet sellers did a brisk business to all appearances. I mean, 1 or 2 JD (Jordanian dinar) for an eight page polemic exhorting you to jihad is a lot of money in a country where a teacher makes JD 80 a month. A JD was five dollars when I got to Jordan, a buck forty when I left. But it buys you a lot more than $1.40-$5 in Jordan. Anyway, they appeared to sell a lot of them. As for how many people took them up and went off to Jihad-I was never privy to that kind of information as I didn't know anyone personally who did that sort of thing. (Although one of my mom's male cousins --I'm from Palestinian muslim stock for those that don't already know me-- is supposed to have heeded the call in Chechnya and died there, I never met him). But I'm sure it was a lot given that 70% of Jordanians are Palestinians, and that Jordan has had an unemployment rate fluctuating around 30% for a long time.

Re #53

D'oh! I meant "unjust". RIMF-RIMF-RIMF

#47 gordon

What I object to is the use by Robert Spencer and Charles of this event to force the Bosnian conflict through their Islamophobic prism.

What's wrong with pointing out that the "International Jihadi's" trained by Osama seem to show up where ever muslims are fighting?

whew....

at least you didnt call me Judas and accuse me of deicide

i can now sleep nights

GORDOSHIT

where is your attendant? isnt it time for your nap?

By the way, LGF islamophobes, you can find plenty of information about alleged Bosnian Muslim atrocities on the web. The only problem is that the site is titled "International Committee to Defend Slobodan Milosevic," here: [Link: www.icdsm.org...] Go ahead and use all the material from here that you want to counter my arguments.

Ed Moran, Gordon, et. al.

The Bosnian Civil War was a very dark, ugly affair. ALL SIDES committed bad acts, and I'm talking Hitleresque bad acts, as in the most heinous crimes against humanity you can think of. I am really not interested in keeping score or who started it or escalated it or assigning blame. ALL ARE GUILTY and ALL SHOULD BE PUNISHED!

If we're gonna haul these two Muslim gentlemen before the Hague, then we ought to haul psychotic murderers Radovan Karadzic and Ratko Mladic on the Serb side before the Hague as well. Let's also find the highest ranking Croats, I'm quite sure their hands are bloody too.

The only innocent victims in that whole mess were the women and children who ended up in the mass graves, and yes, Gordon, they were disproportionately Bosnian Muslim. But a whole lot of Roman Catholic Croatian and Orthodox Serb kids are in mass graves too. No angels in Bosnia, only monsters, as far as I'm concerned.

While we're at it, why not charge the UN, for basically standing aside and letting the people of Srebenica get butchered. Safe zone, my foot!

#51 IHSoter

Hmmm, maybe they are the secret masters of relativity...so we live in a closed universe after all: you can pray in any direction and sooner or later your directed prayers will intersect with Mecca.
/channeling Einstein

#51 IHSoter, they're only supposed to not face Mecca if they don't know where it is. If they do then there's no excuse. I'm perplexed too.
My #54 was in answer to #45 ROP really chappin' my hide, btw-sorry about that.

#47 Gordon

I see things through an "Islamophobic prism" just lately:

1) I was a card-carrying member of the LLL when the shit went down in Bosnia in the early-to-mid 90s. I clearly remember being spoon-fed the garbage about how the muslims were innocent and the Serbs were the personification of Satan. BULLSHIT. The Muslims did bad shit too. You can debate numbers, but they definitely were not innocent.

2) I dated a "moderate" muslim girl when I was in high school. We were crazy about each other. Then her family found out she was dating an "infidel". The reaction was swift and harsh. Don't tell *me* how wonderful muslims are. Those bastards threatened to kill me.

3) I recently saw a map showing all the places in the world where muslims were involved in conflicts. They're fighting Christians, Hindus, Jews, and Animists. They're fighting Americans, southern Sudanese, Bosnians, Russians, Indians, Indonesians, and others, never mind places where they're raising a political stink. They're killing *each other* in almost as many places. RoPMA.

So just put me in the amen corner and give me my script. Sure, there are probably good Muslims. But there are a hell of a lot more bad ones than I originally thought, and I'm not willing to commit suicide. If that makes me a dirty rotten Islamophobic bastard, then I guess that's what I am.

#55 RoP really chappin' my hide

Isn't that PIMF :-)

#62 vs. #47

Now boys...

/channeling grandma

#58 gordon

By the way, LGF islamophobes,

Only phobic of the teachings of Islam that Muslims should rule the world.

#52 Gordon - Fair enough. Would you agree that #59 Jetstorm sums it up rather well?

#63

I give up! I give up!
/channeling Jar-Jar Binks

(sigh) Taking a time-out.

ok........

here are the root causes of the 'Balkan' problem

[Link: www.dhimmi.org...]

BAT YE'OR
The Decline of Eastern Christian Communities
in the Modern Middle East

I have avidly read and supported LGF since Winter 2001.

Any Bosnian Muslims that commited war crimes should absolutely be tried and punished to the fullest extent of international law. Right is right and wrong is wrong, no matter which way you slice it.

I visited Sarajevo last summer (I'm a cinematographer and travel a lot for work). I got to talk with many of the local people (mostly kids in their late teens/early 20s) about what happened in the 90s. The first hand accounts from these kids is the most insane shit I've ever heard in my life. Really unbelievable accounts of people just barely cheating death.

I've travelled the entire Middle East, and as far as muslim countries go Bosnia is far and away the most secular of the ones I have been to. Not just by point of comparison, I just mean secular period. People there drank, partied (hard), and enjoyed as much freedom as you can in a country where the cities are still recovering, the economy is still foundering, and there are UN soldiers all over the place.

And the kids, like I've met everywhere else in the world, love western culture. If it wasn't for the fact that I knew it was technically a muslim majority there, I would never have guessed it. In their words they consider themselves 'European' before 'Muslim'.

I don't know what point I'm trying to make, except that comments such as Ploome's in #35 are completely repulsive.

I see that Gordon, the master straw man builder, is back.

He hasn't read any of Robert Spencer's books, but he feels free to pronounce judgment just the same.

I report a news item that the two highest-ranking Bosnian Muslims are going to be tried in the Hague for war crimes, and that means I'm trying to "force the Bosnian conflict through" my "Islamophobic prism."

Don't you ever feel a little foolish when you make such blatantly false, overblown, hysterical accusations, Gordon?

Of course not, I replied, answering my own question. This is why you're the Official Idiotarian Mascot of LGF.

And now, back to ignoring you.

[Link: www.nationalreview.com...]

Re: the Tucson Mosque again. ************************************************** ****************** ~~For Evariste ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~ ~~The Tucson Mosque is an"interresting" place in many ways. Are you familiar w/ the Submitter sect (i.e. the followers of Rashad Khalifah)? It is probably this Mosque that ordered the "The Hit" on him, they offed him right there in Tucson.

Not familiar, I'm afraid.

MikeC

you know anything about the history if Islam in the Balkans?

or only that they party hardy, and drink beer now?

I sure do, ploome.

Blood of the sons to make up for sins of the father, your logic makes perfect sense.

/sarcasm off

#48 Rayra Garcia O'Kelly Davis

"No Bet. Certainty.
AFP reports Annabelle Valencia is from Tucson ..."

Gack! LLLers in my hometown!
If that ain't enough, on the way to the gym I have to drive by a house with a red car parked outside. The car has a sticker that says "No War for Israel". I keep wanting to chuck a rock at the car or the owner.

MikeC, is ploome calling for Bosnian muslims to be killed for their parents' sins? I don't think so.

Sins of the fathers, that decimated Christian communities, cleansed whole towns of Christian inhabitants

muslims claiming more and more and more as their right.

to this day

Muslim sons claiming land and entitlements their fathers stole from the dhimmi Christians.

Somewhat Off Topic:
"Palestinian" baby born with unique birthmark honored by thousands.

The only catch is that the birthmark happens to spell the name of the child's uncle, a Hamas terrorist, killed by the IDF.

The birthmark is being seen as a "divine message of support for the Palestinians against Israel".

Lovely people, them.

evariste.he is a cinematographer

a guy with a camera and no job

ploome, do I understand you correctly? I hope not, because if so I'm thinking you're out of line.

i fogot

attitude and no job

I thought you were being sarcastic to Gordon before.

You don't know if he has a job or not, and what he says is reasonable. If his take on your comment is correct and not just mistaken assumption born of contextual ignorance, then I have to agree with him, and disagree with you. So please, say you didn't mean it in #35.

#66 David Simon. Yes I would.

59 Jetstorm
_____________

Yeah all sides made massacres but at the end of the day who ended up with territorial gains in Europe? In the Balkans? The Muslims. How come they are always gaining these days while we are losing?

..."He said among the war crimes were ritual beheadings by 'Mujahedin,' or Muslim holy warriors,.."

The first tentative steps of imposing sharia law in eutopia?

I hope the ruling classes in froggistan are watching this closley. I would imagine being beheaded by a jihadi weilding a sword is somewhat more painfull than Madame Guillotine.

The eutopian elites think they will be immune to sharia, just like Marie Antoinette. I suppose they will run for refuge in England.

#77 Evariste etc.: Look at Ploome's comment in #35: she's merely calling for Muslims everywhere to be killed, for whatever reason.

I thought she was being sarcastic to you, Gordon. I'll reserve judgment until she clears that up.

Gordon wrote:

phenomenon of radical Islam, or due to the inherent evil of that religion

Finally! Something I can agree with Gordon on - Hvala!

#79

Hey isn't that 9-year-old (the first photo in the slideshow) the one the Palis admitted to killing? Ugh. Look at the caption: "Israeli troops killed on Monday three Hamas fugitives and a 9-year-old boy in the town of Ramallah..."

#86 dennisw

In the Balkans? The Muslims. How come they are always gaining these days while we are losing?

How do muslims "win" when trying to maintain the status quo in the Balkans?

evarist

I think we should have stayed out of that civil war

we dont need to hand over Europe to muslims

we dont need to finish the dhimmification of the Balkans for the muslims there

Just because the muslims have uncontrollable birth rates and invade and conquer and subjugate others by demography

doesnt mean we have to help them

(substitute non muslim for Jew/Israel and muslim for arab)

I just think we should let them handle it. Remember,

In Ishmael's view, man inhabits a world where God supplies everything without the expectation of any sort of return. In such a world where God supplies everything out of pure benevolence even when it is unearned, the relationship between work and ownership simply breaks down. When all human beings are given everything they have as a matter of benevolence, theft does not stand out as a great moral evil. After all, as no one needs to earn anything, no one is deserving of anything.

Need, not right, becomes the central moral standard. Thieves are generally needier than their victims. Their need supplies them with the moral right to steal.

ARAB AIM

In all the wars Israel (Christians/Hindus/ non Muslims) has had with Ishmael since the reestablishment of the Jewish state, the fear of losing was never a major source of anxiety for the Arab side.

The Arabs could never be seriously harmed by defeat as they would always enjoy the protection of the international community. Whenever the Arabs started to lose too badly on the field of battle, the international community could be relied upon to spring to their aid and impose a cease-fire.

War for the Arab nations was always a win-win proposition. If they won well and good, and even if they appeared to lose the war, they would still have managed to weaken Israel's determination and commitment to hang on to its territory by inflicting casualties without substantial risk to themselves.

From the Arab standpoint, perhaps the major aim in all these wars was to drive home to the Jewish people the message that hanging on to Israel would always involve the high price of willingness to shed Jewish blood.

War for the Arabs(muslims) was always a win-win proposition.

The Arabs that engage in terrorism do so with impunity for the same reason. After all, there is never any fear of massive retaliation. They understand full well that Jews will not deliberately set out to slaughter innocent people. They can keep testing Jewish resolve indefinitely by spilling Jewish blood, free of the threat of retaliation against their own civilian population.

The ability to harm others without needing to consider the logical consequences of one's actions is the essence of theft.

[Link: www.aish.com...]

#70 Charles: I'm very happy when you don't ignore me, it makes me feel actively hated instead of merely unwanted.

"I report a news item that the two highest-ranking Bosnian Muslims are going to be tried in the Hague for war crimes, and that means I'm trying to "force the Bosnian conflict through" my "Islamophobic prism."

You're being more than a bit disingenuous, Charles. This story has been going on for years. Slobodan Milosevic and his underlings, Bosnian Croats, attempts to arrest Radovan Karadzic and his ethnic cleansers. And the first mention you make of this story is an "innocent" little thread about the upcoming trial of two of the "highest ranking" Bosnian Muslims (I thought Izetbegovic the Jihadi was the highest ranking Muslim, and I don't see his name there) for Bosnian war crimes involving 200 people. By the way, does the two "highest ranking" Bosnian Muslims mean the two highest ranking, period, or the two highest ranking "so far?"

You have provided no context for this story, which fortunately some posters other than my own discredited self have filled in for the edification of your readers.

And unlike you, who can still maintain an innocent facade, Robert Spencer on Jihad Watch openly yet dishonestly comes to the conclusion you only imply; that Jihadis were responsible for prolonging the Bosnian war. I've already exposed the dishonesty of that argument in #18. Do you deny that, even though they may not be in the book, the words on Jihad Watch are Robert Spencer's?

Jackie Mason is freakin' awesome! (scroll down to highlighted text)

Evariste..

I dont want killing, it is abhorrent

I wish we could live and let live

that is not possible, with Islam as it is today

so either they stay where they are

they change

or they will bring their mandatory struggle, jihad, to make islam supreme over all the world, with them

we have to stop that any way we can.

#79

If a baby were born with the words, "THIS IS ALLAH SPEAKING - KNOCK OFF ALL THE MURDER!", tattooed on its forehead, would they still call it a "miracle"?

#77 - I was responding specifically to ploome's comment in #35.

I think that any Bosnians who commit war crimes (in this case torturing POWs, disgusting) should be tried and punished to the fullest extent of the law. There is no question of that.

It is also my opinion that ploome's comment in #35 was completely out of line.

92 ralph
______________

Just a few years back Kosovo was under Serbian (Christian) control. Kosovo is now under Muslim control and a defacto province of Albania. This equals more Muslim turf (aka Dar al Islam) and in Europe no less! Making it so much sweeter to the Jihadis. Bosnia is also under Muslim control.

Islamics in Europe should be very happy now.

evariste......this is what I think

[Link: denbeste.nu...]

"If you learn nothing else about America, learn this and imprint it on your brain in glowing colors: we will never surrender. There are many ways this war can end. That's not one of them.

So if you want the war to end, then you better start working to restrain the worst and most militant elements within Islamic society which started the war against the US, and who continue to fight it. We're quite willing to stop and call it a draw, but we cannot and will not stop as long as the threat continues to exist against us, and we won't accept a "temporary ceasefire" with a later renewal of hostilities (which is to say, continuing terrorist attacks against us). As long as we think there are militant groups out there who mean to attack us, the war will go on. As soon as those militant groups have been rooted out and annihilated, the war will be over.

So the only question is how that will happen.

You can clean out the vermin in your own house, or you can have us clean out the vermin for you, or you can refuse to clean it and prevent us from doing so, in that case you will watch while we blow your house up in order to destroy the vermin, the extremist Islamic militants who started this war and who want to continue fighting it. Those are your only choices. But you better not plan on us giving up and letting your militants win, by letting them slaughter us when and where they want. We will not stand idly by while they plan attacks against us to slaughter us. As long as we face that threat, we will continue to fight.

It's not a question of my nation making a decision whether people will die. Islamic militants made that decision. America's only decision now is who will die, and where and when. If we stand by idly and passively, then it will be Americans who die, whenever and wherever the Islamic extremists choose to kill them, probably in huge numbers.

We don't consider that acceptable. That's surrender. That's not going to happen."

"In Onward Muslim Soldiers I trace how Bosnia became a magnet for international jihadists in the 1990s, and explain how jihad ideology poisoned prospects for peace there, as it has in so many other places. Now it seems that some of the truth is coming to light."

"In the book, Robert Spencer describes how non-Bosnian jihadists fought in the Bosnian civil war in the 1990s, and explains how their jihadist beliefs lessened any chance for peace, as has happened elsewhere. Now it seems that the role of jihad in the Bosnian war, ignored by the Western media, is coming to light."

I think that's a fair "translation" of Mr Spencer's comments (though he is obviously free to correct me in my interpretation).

So, how does this mean he's an apologist for the Bosnian Serbs? How is he blaming the Muslims? As I understand it, Spencer is simply saying that the idelogy of jihad made an already terrible situation far worse.

#100 ploome
That's nice...now how about comment #35?

Deathberg
__________

Funny as heck Jackie Mason. Funny!!! Some more Jackie: [Link: www.americanprowler.com...]

#99 dennisw

Just a few years back Kosovo was under Serbian (Christian) control.

If the majority of citizens are muslims, how are the christians in control other than through the barrel of a gun?

evarist......

about my post #35

of course anything to irritate the gordo

but I sure am not sympathetic to muslim "suffering"

they have the potential to live peacefully, and they always choose violence

sorry, but too many lies and manipulated humiliations, etc, etc

ploome - Your comment in #100 may be seen as backtracking, but I see it as a far more restrained and acceptable argument than the one you posted in #35.

102 andrew

what about it?

106 MikeC

I am concerned with evariste whom I admire and respect.

I am concerned he understand me.

I am responding to evariste.

#107 ploome
Your post #105 answered my question.

101,when and where have they made anything better?

#105 ploome

but I sure am not sympathetic to muslim "suffering"

but I sure am not sympathetic to jewish "suffering"
but I sure am not sympathetic to christian "suffering"
but I sure am not sympathetic to hindu "suffering"

#94 Gordon

Gordon, I haven't read his book yet either so you can consider these remarks to have relatively equal weight to yours re Robert Spencer (that is, near-zero on the importance-o-meter until we've become edumacated). Regardless, I'll make 'em anyway:

From what I've been able to research in the last several minutes, the guy's arguing that Islamist jihadis entering the Balkan war merely inflamed an already-raging conflagration. I think you may be trying to create a moral equivalence where none exists. Specifically the thought that jihadis commiting atrocities against Christian Serbs is okay in "self-defense" since the Christian Serbs were slaughtering Muslim Croats. This is the typical LLL side-with-the-downtrodden type argument, which we see jihadis everywhere using. These jihadis would've committed these acts whether or not the Serbs were doing the same. The point is, the jihadis are an imported hell-in-a-handbasket who only exacerbated the grief and suffering in that region. I think it's a good point.

ploome, OK. I'm not asking you to have any sympathy for their suffering, not even that of innocents-only to acknowledge it, and that you were just trying to get Gordon's goat in #35 and while you were not showing any empathy, you also were not actively cheering the murder of innocents. That a fair statement? If it is then good, I have no quarrel with you.
Gordon, I said this over at Robert's

Robert, a commenter by the name of Gordon has been slandering you for a while over at lgf. Do you mind stopping by and setting him straight once and for all so we can tell him to shut the hell up about you in future? It would be most helpful :-)
Here's a sampling of the kind of stuff he says every time your name is brought up:
"Now I don't need to read Spencer's book (but I'll read it anyway, there may be more outrages within it) to know that he is a dishonest apologist for Serb ethnic cleansing. By his rights the Bosnian Muslims should have laid down like little lambs for slaughter instead of getting help from whatever source they could, and unfortunately that included foreign jihadis. To say that these jihadis prolonged the conflict is absurd. The only way they prolonged the conflict was by bolstering Bosnian Muslim forces and preventing the entire population to be massacred or deported by the Bosnian Serbs."
From comment #18 in today's lgf thread that links to this story.
Posted by: evariste at December 2, 2003 05:53 PM

To which he replied

Dear Evariste,

Thank you for your kind note. Unfortunately there is no satisfying some people. It is always wise not to answer mean-spirited and dishonest words, but I actually did answer Gordon once at LGF after a friend pointed out to me his repeated attacks. It made no difference.

In the quote you give from his postings, he leaps from my pointing out the fact that jihadis traveled to Bosnia to fight and spread radical Muslim rhetoric there, which is an undisputable historical fact, to claiming that I am a "a dishonest apologist for Serb ethnic cleansing." Yet neither he nor anyone else will ever be able to produce a statement by me coming remotely close to justifying anything of the kind. I am trying to call attention to jihad terrorism because I believe that it is a chief cause of conflict, and an aggravator of existing conflicts, around the world. That doesn't mean that I think no one else does anything wrong. I have never even written about Milosevic, much less apologized for him.

Perhaps "Gordon" is so ideologically blinkered that he cannot see that to point out wrongdoing by one side in ANY conflict is not to absolve the other side of all blame. Or perhaps he is simply as dishonest as he charges me with being.

In either case, it isn't worth my responding. You are welcome to paste this into the thread at LGF, but I am staying out of it!

Thanks again and best regards. RS
Posted by: Robert Spencer at December 2, 2003 06:19 PM

Which is good enough for me. He straight up says neither you nor anyone else will ever produce a statement by him justifying Serb ethnic cleansing. You will now either shut up about it, or produce such a statement.

111 ralph

while I am very sympathetic to Hindu suffering

the suffering of Christians in Sudan, Phillipines,

the Chinese in Malaysia

The Christians in Pakistan, Egypt etc....

all caused by the struggle to make islam supreme in the world, and bring the infidel humbled, to recognize the superiority of islam

I am not sympathetic to muslims 'suffering; to achieve this goal

101 Haven't you realized that pointing out the facts is :racist/bigoted/hateful/fill in the blank with whatever negative term you want? The LLL can not support thier ideas and beliefs with facts so they resort to emotion and name calling. If you do not believe in LLL idea you are branded some sort of phobe.

Gordon untwist your shorts, take a deep breath. Stating that 2 muslims are being charged with warm crimes is in no way stating that it was only muslims that commited war crimes. As stated so many times above neither side is innocent. The actions of these two is not an indictment of the entire population of muslims in Serbia. Niether should the actions of some "christians" be a reflection of the attitude of all the christians.

Crikey, people!

Have you forgotten the LGF prayer so soon? Why are you responding to ANY TROLL, even the ones that are neutered & simply hang around hoping for a lovely GAZE?

DO
NOT
FEEL
THE
TROLLS

Must I bring out my 'American Symphony' laserdisc?

ploome-OK, understood. Thanks.
MikeC, she was just gettin' Gordon's goat. It's too bad you guys misunderstood each other. If you have any more insight or firsthand reporting to offer regarding Bosnian muslims, despite your rocky initial debut here, I'd be interested to read it, as I'm sure other lgfers would be. If you care to share.

Down boy!

By the way, you can purchase the book at Amazon Onward yada yada yada, or find it at many local bookstores. Even the library has the book by Spencer. So it's easy to track down and read. It's at BAMM, too (Yada yada yada, and cheaper than Amazon),

btw, 'down boy' was in reference to the frothing of the troll, NOT as a response to rational thinking and posting.

#113: It's nice to see both Charles and Spencer backtracking from the meaning I (and lots of reasonable people) have implied from their statements. Maybe they're not so bad after all...

Ploome, on the other hand, is utterly incorrigible.

Not so, Gordon. She said she was only trying to get your goat. Apparently your goat has been successfully got.

#94 Gordon wrote in his stunning rebuke of Charles -

"I thought Izetbegovic the Jihadi was the highest ranking Muslim, and I don't see his name there"

Possibly because, as the beeb says -

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

"The most senior Bosnian Muslim investigated by the tribunal was the country's war-time leader Alija Izetbegovic, who died last month."

I think Charles should establish an Achievment Awards hierarchy like the one Marvel Comics used to have ie KOTF, QNS etc and hand them out to people who, ahem, perform useful tasks like, ahem, say, sacrifice their valuable time when they could be working or reading HISTORY BOOKS fact-checking genocide denying bigots. What say you LGF realists ?

#121 gordon

Ploome, on the other hand, is utterly incorrigible.

How true. Ploome doesn't buy into the world of Gordo where the "muslims" are the oppressed of the earth.

@ ALL

Gordo has said about himself what has always been apparent to me

#70 Charles: I'm very happy when you don't ignore me, it makes me feel actively hated instead of merely unwanted.

The guy just wants attention - that's all it's about.

damn

he woke up from his nap

Ralph, you say

How true. Ploome doesn't buy into the world of Gordo where the "muslims" are the oppressed of the earth.

if you read CAIR and other AMerican muslim sites...

what are they whining about?

the fact that they are 'stared at'? discriminated against?

humiliated?

they dont have enough room at (was it) Ohio state for 500 people to pray 5 times a day? and they want the University to provide the room for them?

they whine, that they have to wait in lines at airports?

I thank each and every airport screener when I travel..telling them how much I appreciate the job they are doing.

while I take off my shoes, before they ask me to.

its the same methods and same agend, wether you read the hindu unity site, or read whats happeing in Europe, or Israel.

If existance of non muslim secular government , and secular rules is oppressive and humiliating to muslims.

the existance on non muslim religious symbols and missionaries are anathema to muslims.

only muslim dawah and symbols and preaching are ok.

even here in the USA

#46 Colt

Under "Honor Killings":
Perveen's husband stated in court that "What I did was wrong, but I am satisfied. I did it for my honour and prestige."

This pretty much covers the husband's tush--er, rear guard. Islamism would have condemned him (oh, yeah, wait for *that*....) if he had denied committing a crime - that would be a sin that converts him to a Kaaf'r. Since he admits he did wrong, the offense becomes minor and easily "repaired."

I believe I've read about this particular woman. US plastic surgery gave her prosthetics. Her daughter no longer runs screaming away from her, but the woman's a bit disappointed. She had thought the glass eyes would restore her sight. (No time to find the site now - but if you want t, you may leave me an e-mail. The qu'rannic explanation should be a quickish find.)

#116

I, for one, promise NEVER to "feel" a troll....LOL!

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

Ritual Murders of Jews in Paris

here, gordo

explain this

People!

GAZE is the correct response.

DO NOT FEED INTO THE BRAINLESS IDIOCY

Thank you.

Re #129:
Perhaps the mistake was intentional...

Oh, VFI! I love it when touch me right there!
*heads to the toilet to purge

evariste: that's why doctors say "Don't play with your uvula unattended."

steve miller-LOL!

evariste Adam Selene

Seeing that name reminds me of good Heinlen and Time Line 3 where it happens that Paris is destroyed in 2002.

Ah sweet Time Line 3...

#10 Ed Moran

You are right, this is a really muddy issue and OT for a Middle East discussion board, but I'm a Balkans historian, so here goes:

Bosnia wasn't the Arab-Israeli conflict. The really, really bad guys were the Serbs, sorry to say.

Izebegovic may have been a Bosnian extremist, but of the "shaved face" kind. He never wanted to slaughter vast numbers of non-Muslims. He may have destablized Yugoslavia by working for secession -- but he was never the premeditated war criminal of the Milosovic and Milozdic ilk.

Of course, there were a lot of nasty things committed on the Bosnian side during the war. Foreign jehadi volunteers engaged in truly horrendous Islamic things -- kidnapping women off the street to become their "wives," for example.

But think of it this way -- the serbs have a history of nasty behavior. For example, it was the Serbian government, with the help of the Russians, that ordered the murder Archduke Franz Ferdinand of Austria in 1914 with the deliberate motive of setting off a general European war. Twenty million Christian Europeans eventually died so that Serbia could annex Bosnia, Croatia, Slovenia, and Montenegro.

Their hands aren't clean. Perhaps it can be blamed on 500 years of Ottoman domination. Whatever the reason, they had a real attitude problem.

Good stuff, thanks, Lee C.G. Feagee!

#117 - Thanks for the response and for post #113. As far as I can tell the main points are settled here. I could share insane firsthand stories I've heard from Bosnia (or Israel for that matter). I do think that they would be random comments in this thread though, seeing as this is specifically about Bosnian military leaders being charged with war crimes. I always prefer it when things stay on topic (which they rarely do anyway, especially when it inevitably turns to flamewars and silly personal attacks)

MikeC, thanks-I expect I'll see you on another thread, eh? I bet those stories'll come out of you one way or another :-)

Re# 94 Mr. Merde

Charles,

It is well past time to eliminate this blinkered, ineducable calumniating piece of fecal matter from your website....Failure to do so amounts to abetting his warped agenda...That having been said, perhaps it is time to link LGFers to "another perspective", for and ask why indeed, as Mr. Merde #94, noted Is-a-bag-of-shit was himself not prosecuted for war crimes..as he should have been !!!..The biography of the Serbian American columnist / journalist who wrote this is here:[Link: www.serbianna.com...]

Savich's work is public record, and can be verified/ debunked..In analyzing one of his earlier writings on Hajj Amin el-Husseini I found NOTHING inconsistent with the work of accepted scholars...The essay below is chilling..

[Link: www.serbianna.com...]

"Introduction: War Crimes in Bosnia

In May, 1992, Bosnian Muslim and Croat forces attacked and occupied Bosnian Serb villages around the Konjic municipality in central Bosnia-Hercegovina. The Muslim and Croat forces began rounding up and expelling the Bosnian Serb residents, a policy that came to be known as ethnic cleansing. Serbian villages and towns were burned down and destroyed and Bosnian Serb civilians were massacred. The Bosnian Serb civilians who survived, men, women, and children, were herded into collection or detention centers. Many of the Serbian women and children were confined in a local school. Approximately 400 men and some women were taken to the former JNA (Jugoslovenska Narodna Armija, Yugoslav National Army) military base in the town of Celebici, where the Muslim and Croat forces set up the Celebici camp....The preferred method of murder at the Celebici camp was by beating the elderly Serbian inmates to death. A baseball bat, rifle butt, and wooden plank were used by the Bosnian Muslim camp guards. In the latter part of May, 1992, Petko Gligorevic and Gojko Miljanic were beaten to death. Miroslav Vujicic was shot and killed on May 27.....One of the Bosnian Muslim war crimes committed at the Celebici camp in June 1992 demonstrated the religious fervor that motivated the Bosnian Muslim commanders and guards. Bosnian Serb Milorad Kuljanin was selected and shot by Bosnian Muslim guards at the camp, “one of whom said they wished a sacrifice for the Muslim festival of Bairaim (sic)” according to the ICTY indictment. Bairam or Bayram, derived in Bosnia from Turkish Sunni Islam, is one of the most important days in the Islamic calendar, which commemorates the haj pilgrimage to Mecca and the willingness of Abraham to sacrifice his son to god. In Turkey, the ritual sacrifice of a goat or camel is made. There is the Ramazan Bayrami which celebrates the end of Ramadan and Kurban Bayrami, which is the Feast of the Sacrifice. Kuban Bayrami or Qurban Bayram (Ed al-Adha or Eid ul-Kabir) is known as the Great Feast or Festival, “The Festival of Sacrifice”. A witness reported that a guard at the camp told the inmates that at least 10 Serbs would be slaughtered for “Kurban Bairam”. Zeljko Cecez was killed on July 25 or 26, the first day of the Kurban Bairam. Cecez was shot three times in the face and neck at close range with a rifle by Bosnian Muslim guard Esad Macic, Eso, known as “Makaron”. A witness stated that his skull was struck and his brain splattered on the ground and on the clothes of the witness.

Bosnian Serb inmates were forced to repeat the phrase “Allahu akbar” (Arabic for “God is great”, an Islamic religious prayer invocation) and the phrase “Ready for the Fatherland!”...

RE: IS-A-BAG-OF-SHIT: "Alija Izetbegovic is reported to have visited the camp at the end of July, 1992 which proves he had knowledge of the existence of the camp and what was occurring inside of it. Under the doctrine of command responsibility, Izetbegovic should have been indicted for war crimes. The war crimes committed at Celebici were under his authority. The ICTY admitted that Izetbegovic was indeed being “investigated” for committing war crimes but that the case was closed following his death. "

#127 ploome

the fact that they are 'stared at'? discriminated against?

Dear ploome, I was only saying that the extermination of Bosnian muslims is wrong. I think that your antipathy to all things muslim is also wrong. I dislike your "scorched earth" views.

Just looking at the new run of the European Community forecast model, while its surface low isn't as intense, its position would back winds from the east to the north-east and north-northeast, meaning a possible changeover to heavy snow at the Meadowlands for the Skins game, and possibly even PHL for the Cowboys. Only thing better than football in driving rain and 50 mph winds is football in wet, slushy snow and 50 mph winds. The ECMWF brings a 1000-1002 mb strong tropical storm just east of Jamaica Friday toward the Mona Passage, but doesn't have the tropical cyclone captured by the polar east coast low the way the Canadian model does. The Canadian develops a truly frightening sub 980 mb low on the Virginia Capes, which would bring sustained winds near hurricane force to the coastal cities Virginia to New York.

The 18Z US model looks similar to the ECMWF, but predicts winds a bit more easterly, so the immediate coast may stay rain, but 850 mb (~1 km) temps are below freezing, so heavy snow would be dumping just inland. The US model also limits the northern extent of the heaviest precipitation, limiting accumulations in NY and keeping BOS fairly dry.

Anyway, moral of this story is prepare for a 3 day POTENTIAL WINTER WEATHER DISASTER

1. MUSLIMS MUST FOLLOW THE SUNNA (EXEMPLARY) OF THE SELF-PROCLAIMED "PROPHET," MOHAMMED MANAF.

2. MOHAMMED MANAF COMMITTED GENOCIDE.

3. IT IS OBLIGATORY FOR ALL MUSLIMS TO COMMIT GENOCIDE.

DO NOT DEBASE YOURSELF by arguing against the above chain-statement. It is patent verity. The source below is ibn-Ishaq's 8th c "Path of the Messenger of God" (published in English as "The Life of Mohammed"). Ishaq's biography is sacred to muslims, because it precedes settled hadith (hearsay comments allegedly made by the ersatz "prophet"), and is based on the entire "600,000" item hadith corpus (according to compiler Bukhari's biographer).

THE GENOCIDE OF THE ENTIRE MALE MEMBERS OF THE JEWISH BANU (TRIBE) QURAIZAI, BY MOHAMMED MANAF, THE WORST MASS MURDERER IN HUMAN HISTORY. A MAN WHOSE IDEOLOGICAL PROGENY - LIKE GORDON - ARE PREPARING TO CREATE A GLOBAL POLITICAL STRUCTURE CONDUCIVE TO THE EXTERMINATION OF OVER 5,000,000,000 INNOCENT CIVILIZED PEOPLES.

This is what Mohammed Manaf ordained for his fanatic disciples, and an example of what Gordon will do if wild animals like him are ever placed in a position of power:

"Sa'd (the "qadi", or judge, who carried out Mohammed's kangaroo court judgment against innocent people) asked, 'Do you covenant by allah that you accept the judgment I pronounce on them?' They (the "mujihars" or traitorous muslim infiltrators) said, 'Yes' and he said, 'And it is incumbent on the one who is here?' (looking) in the direction of the apostle, (but) not mentioning him out of respect, and the apostle answered, 'Yes.' Sa'd said, 'Then I give judgement that the men should be killed, the property divided, and the women and children taken as captives.'"

"...then they (condemned innocent Jews) surrendered, and the apostle confined them in Medina (Yethrib) in the quarter of d Mu'adh from Alqama b Waqqas al-Laythi that the apostle said to Sa'd 'You hav given the judgement of allah above the seven heavens.' Then the apostle went to the market of Medina (Yethrib) and dug trenches in it. Then he sent for them and struck off their heads in those trenches as they were brought out to him in batches...THERE WERE 600 OR 700 IN ALL, THOUGH SOME PUT THE FIGURE AS HIGH AS 800 OR 900. As they were bring taken out in batches to the apostle, they asked Ka'b what he thought would be done with them. He replied, 'Will you never understand? Don't you see that the summoner never stops and those who are taken away do not return? BY ALLAH, IT IS DEATH!' This went on until the apostle made an end to them..."

"Aisha (the phony prophet's 6 year old sex utensil) said: 'Only one of their women was killed. She was actually with me and was talking with me an laughing immoderately AS THE APOSTLE (MOHAMMED MANAF) WAS KILLING (READ: MURDERING) HER MEN IN THE MARKET, when suddenly an unseen voice called her name, 'Good heavens,' I cried, 'What is the matter?' 'I am to be killed,' she replied. 'What for?' I asked. "Because of something I did,' she answered. She was taken away and beheaded. Aisha used to say, 'I shall never forget my wonder at her good spirits and her loud laughter when all the time she knew she was going to be killed.'"

Muslims like Gordon read the account of his cultic founder's GENOCIDE of 900 innocent Jewish men, and confinement of their wives and children into sexual slavery to Mohammed's lustful companions (sahabi). In fact, Gordon almost certainly masterbates when he hears or reads of murders committed by his fellow [bigoted word]s. Sadism is the cardinal virtue of the most fanatic muslim cultists.

THIS IS WHAT PIGS LIKE GORDON THINK THEY ARE GOING TO GET FOR A LIFE OF COMMISSION OF GENOCIDE:

www.flex.com/~jai/satyamevajayate/heaven.html

That is what savages like Gordon-the-Islamofascist live for. Any civilized conception of human dignity is anathema to these killers. We must treat them as mortal enemies, and pre-empt their genocide. Mohammed's blood-lustful progeny are waiting for their genocidal "savior" ("mahdi") so that they act out the "sunna" of their pedophile "prophet," and begin exterminating 5,000,000,000 innocent people. And the [bigoted word]s did it before. Click the attached link, and you can read an account of the ISLAMIC GENOCIDE of a 10,000 man army, at the hands of once sheepish muslims.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

THERE ARE TWO TYPES OF MUSLIMS: POTENTIAL AND ACTUAL JIHADI MURDERERS. ISLAM IS TERROR; MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS.

Authoritative muslim pig says that rape of captive women is halal (allowed by islamic shariah):

[Link: islam.tc...]

Thanks, Ed Moran!
*small voice: I didn't understand any of that. *
So, what part of the country are we talking about, and what day does this all start?

evariste: the thing that really scared me was I had to look if VFI was posting again. I wuz scairt!

137

I'm glad there was a Balkans expert around. Islam is responsible for plenty enough murder, mayhem and violence, and sheer savagery, that we don't need to be debating the fine points of who was more guilty in the Balkans.

While we can dislike how SOME Muslims act, few here would agree that ALL Muslims act badly. Opposing Islamism != kill all the Muslims.

I agree, Ed-it's nice to read someone informed. As informative as lgf is, there's also a lot of bullshit in the threads. Too bad he showed up after all the arguing was over!
steve miller-check this out:I only found out she was banned yesterday! I was under a big rock.

well, Ralph, regarding

I think that your antipathy to all things muslim is also wrong. I dislike your "scorched earth" views

sorry I cant be more caring about 'things muslim'.

I could be Daniel Pearl

It could have been MY Synagogue firebombed

It could have been ME, assaulted as I walked down the street wearing a star of David.

It could have been MY children targeted on a bus or in a restaurant or in school.

Day after day, month after month..

as it was, it was only my Fatehr who was taken, imprisoned, in a slave labor camp during WWll...

while the world looked on, and closed their borders

and my Mother who was cringeing in some cellar, where she gave birth to a boy who died.

And I see Jews again targeted, scared, taunted intimidated and murdered on the streets of Paris; just for being Jews.

And the EU ambassador says, "that while he can't say whether there has been an increase in European anti-Semitism, there has definitely been an increase in anti-Muslim and anti-Arab feeling."

antipathy to all things muslim? antipathy to muslim total obsession with Jews!

you say scorched earth

I say zero tolerance.

You dont have to like it.

Camel Prophet-

Gordo doesn't quite get "it", that the Muslims want to enslave us all, nor does he understand that it is possible for one culture ( ie, the West ) to be superior to primitive savage cultures ( Islam ), but he doesn't hate the Jews, IMHO ( of course, I am not Jewish, but I think Gordon is more dhimmi than evil).

Evariste, starts as early as Friday some places, peaks late Saturday into Sunday, best bet heavy rain/snow/flooding North Carolina to extreme southern New England.

Of course, this is just my interpreation of what is coming, the NWS hasn't gotten anywhere near as wild eyed yet. But if school kids from Charlotte to New London have the day off Monday ( and probably Tuesday) and lots of people miss the Cowboys-Eagles and Skins-Giants game because the power went out, remember who called it first.

Good, so the midwest won't be seeing any of that then.

ev (I can call you ev, can't I?): that was a mighty big rock!

I wouldn't agree with banning the trollette Gordon. He's not spewing the Judenhass-sewage of VFI or ConventCow. It's more like he's got two voices in his head, one saying "Spew!" and the other saying "Silencio!" And every so often, the voices switch their positions. And every so often, Gordon comes across as somewhat aligned to the normal plane of reality.

And then, I think, he bites a piece of his tin-foil hat, the foil reacts with his mercury-laced fillings, he gets a jolt to his carpe diem, and he's off like a bottle rocket on the beach.

At some point I predict he will tilt over into true Jew-hatred. He has no moral center, just some self-identity that he is somehow the only one here with a clear view of what's REALLY true, and what's REALLY nice. And if ONLY he could get his point across, we'd (a) see how wrong it is to Islam-bash and (b) see how wonderful he is and invite him to our secret parties where we exchange the secret matzoh-handshake and get our payments for supporting the world-wide Zionist conspiracy. (Note: I arrived late to the party last time and reaganite and zulubaby picked up my share, because they said I gave them permission to pick up my check, but I didn't! I didn't!)

But sadly, the trollette Gordon won't be invited to the party for a long time, not until he grows up and learns to listen before he speaks.

Clue-by-four to the trolls & trollette: just because you have a keyboard doesn't mean you should press [enter].

#150 ploome

You dont have to like it.

No I do not think it is prudent to discount the ideas of what "Islam" is by 1.5 bilion muslims.

Depends on what you mean by Midwest.

You have something against blizzards?

No I do not think it is prudent to discount the ideas of what "Islam" is by 1.5 bilion muslims.

What does THAT mean? I can't disentangle it.

BTW, I don't think there are 1.5 billion Muslims. I could be wrong. But I think the most recent count was something like 1.1 billion, give or take a seethe.

/humor

I wonder if we have a different Gordon than we used to have. He went away for a while, and when he came back, he seemed a bit angrier. More LLL mantra stuff like "Bush Stole the Election" and such.

I'm just not sure. A while back, he seemed to be making some progress.

Reminds me, I wonder if Caton will ever post again.

Maybe Gordo has started channelling Dean from Network: "I'm madder than a hadder and I can't take it anymore! So I'm going to partner with the Soviet Union and smash the networks!"

stev, you can call me ev if you like :-)

steve-"silencio"-reminds me of a Lynch flick, but which?

Try this one Mullholland Drive

Duh! I knew it, I just couldn't remember the name. Thanks.

There's this real cool tool on the web: Gooble. I dunno, maybe it's just a flash in the pan, but it seems to work pretty well for me.

;)

LOL
I was lazy, I'm watching tv and commenting here at the same time :-)

Well, I just expect that when you come out with your cool book "How LGF Set Me Free," that I get PROMINENT MENTION in the acknowledgements, something along the lines of "to my VERY GOOD FRIEND STEVE MILLER WHO WRITES ALL THOSE COOL SONGS EVERYONE HUMS IN THE ELEVATORS WHEN STUCK BETWEEN FLOORS," or words to the effect.

The Second Balkan War was started by muslims, on April 5, 1992 after a mob forced Yugoslav federal officials to retreat to the Parliament buildings in Sarejevo. The muslim target was: secular government, which they found to be offensive to islamic-injustice (shariah). In order to end the siege and free captives, federal forces (JNA) began a defensive bombardment from surrounding hills. The muslims responded by launching either genocide or ethnic cleansing campaigns against Serbs. If the federal troops had not attacked, 100,000 innocent people would have been put to death by islamic-sunna compliant muslims.

Federal captives were immediately placed in muslim death camps, and made subject to tortures, starvation and beheadings. Only the fact that the muslims were forced to seek international aid, caused them to cease their atrocities. However, they resisted non-muslim intervention because the genocide war was conducted on authority of islamic jihad.

Faced with numerous terror raids from Srebrenica and on territory occupied by Serbian victims, and challenged by muslim genocide and ethnic cleansing, the federal authority began to conduct pacification measures which included depopulation of muslim jihadi elements from the Serb side of the Drina River.

REMEMBER: BANGLADESH'S ISLAMOFASCIST GOVERNMENT IS REDUCING THAT COUNTRY'S HINDU POPULATION BY ONE-PERCENT EVERY YEAR. AT PARTITION, HINDUS FORMED 18% OF PAKISTAN'S POPULATION. THEY HAVE BEEN REDUCED TO LESS THAN 1% BY MEANS OF MUSLIM OPPRESSION, MURDER, RAPE AND PLUNDER. IN STARK CONTRAST, THE PERCENTAGE OF MUSLIMS IN INDIA HAS INCREASED FROM 8-13% OVER THE SAME PERIOD. ETHNIC-CLEANSING IS INTEGRAL TO ISLAM, AND OBLIGATORY FOR EVERY MUSLIM. ISLAM IS TERROR; MUSLIMS ARE TERRORISTS.

How about, "to my super fabulous supafly friend steve miller, gangster of love, unapprehended "real killer" of nicole-brown simpson, space cowboy, fluent pizmotalist, merkin-maker by appointment to Her Royal Highness, and muse to James Joyce"?

I'll call you a "Hero of the Soviet Union" too, if you like.

#141: Gordonriddanceplease: Your arguments that ethnic cleansing occurred (although on a lesser scale than their opponents) by Bosnian Muslims are undoubtedly true.

When you bring in your Islam-is-bad arguments you are merely parroting the excuses Milosevic, Karadzic, "Arkan," and others used for their vastly greater ethnic cleansing and genocide activities. The popular Serbian epithet for Bosnian Muslims was "Turks." Now, if I were Serbian I would hate the Turks too, but Bosnian Muslims are not historically or ethnically Turks; they are descendants of a Christian sect which was viciously persecuted by both Croats and Serbs and thus embraced Islam when their saviors the Turks arrived. Ethnically Bosnian Muslims are indistinguishable from both Serbs and Croats, being Slavs.

This war had everything to do with ancient Balkan emnities and virtually nothing to do with radical or offensive Islam. The only aspects of Islam involved were 1. the limited number of Muslim Jihadis who arrived to help the devastated Bosnian Muslims, and 2. the fact that both the Serbs and (to a lesser extent) the Croats used Islam as an excuse for their terrorism, ethnic cleansing, and genocide.

evvie - yeah, I'll go for that.

#166 Camel Milosevic: Talk about revisionist history! The academics who claimed that the U.S. is responsible for starting the Cold War after World War II instead of the Soviet Union don't have anything over on you!

And what's that buzzing sound in here? Sounds like a fly caught between the window and the screen door.

GAZE

#157 Ed Moran: nothing like an attempt to whitewash Bosnia as an "Islamic" issue to bring out the best (or worst, according to some) in me. It takes away from the overall argument that Islam is a world threat to apply it to every single goddamned situation in the world where one of the combatants is Islamic. Every rule has exceptions, and Bosnia is an exception. Those who don't recognize this are truly unthinking fanatics.

#153 Steve Miller: I fail to see how disputing Robert Spencer's views on the root causes of the Bosnia conflict means that I am one step away from "jew-hatred."

But then logic, or an ability to carry an argument instead of writing idiotic "gaze" warnings, has never been your strong suit.

Why, thank you, Mr. Holland, for another lovely performance of An American Symphony.

Perhaps you can play us another song or composition?

No?

Only one song?

Well, then.

Just thinking about a song from another thread...

Oh,
The ranters on this board go LOO! LOO! LOO!
LOO! LOO! LOO!
LOO! LOO! LOO!
The ranters on this board go LOO! LOO! LOO!
All around the town

Oh,
Enablers on this board wear TIN FOIL HATS
TIN FOIL HATS
TIN FOIL HATS
Enablers on this board wear TIN FOIL HATS
All around the town...

I still think gymnast nailed Gordy perfectly:

Too bad that Gordon has perceptual dysfunction and moral dyslexia.

That's a good point - at best he is just socially and ethically tone-deaf.

Plus I think he owns "Mr. Holland's Opus."

On laserdisc.

... at best he is just socially and ethically tone-deaf.

That's good too.

Q: How does {a troll} change a light bulb?
A: He holds the dead bulb, and the world spins around him. However, when he is done, the light bulb is still dim - and so is {the troll}.

steve miller (#172)

I missed that comment. LOL!!!