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Gimli the Dwarf: Anti-Idiotarian

Mon, Dec 15, 2003 at 3:48:43 pm PST

By now most people know that Viggo Mortensen, who plays Aragorn in The Lord of the Rings, is also a first class moonbat when it comes to politics, sharing the stage with radical Muslims at International ANSWER demonstrations and reading horrible “anti-war poetry.”

But Gimli, Son of Gloin, certainly didn’t miss the point of the story: The Return of the King: Filmmakers contemplate journey, significance of books and films. (Hat tip: Mark Cameron.)

Perhaps the most passionate observations came from John Rhys-Davies, who plays the dwarf Gimli and voices Treebeard the Ent. Focusing on the necessity of defending civilization in times of crisis, Rhys-Davies took the media to task for failing to appreciate the preciousness of Western civilization, and warned of the potential consequences of rising Muslim extremism and the increasingly Islamic face of Europe.

“I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged,” said John Rhys-Davies, “and if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.”

Pointing a finger at the media, Rhys-Davies went on, “What is unconscionable is that too many of your fellow journalists do not understand how precarious Western civilization is, and what a jewel it is ... The abolition of slavery comes from Western democracy. True democracy comes from our Greco-Judeo-Christian Western experience. If we lose these things, then this is a catastrophe for the world.”

Rhys-Davies revealed that as far back as 1955 his father had predicted that “the next World War will be between Islam and the West.” The actor recalled his response: “I said to him, ’Dad, you’re nuts! The Crusades have been over for hundreds of years!’ And he said, ’Well, I know, but militant Islam is on the rise again. And you will see it in your lifetime.’ He’s been dead some years now. But there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t think of him and think, ’God, I wish you were here, just so I could tell you that you were right.’”

Looking at the lone female journalist at the table, Rhys-Davies said pointedly, “You should not be in this room [according to Muslim custom]. Because your husband or your father or your husband is not here to guide you. You could only be here in this room with these strange men for immoral purposes.”

Rhys-Davies went on to contemplate the significance of demographic shifts among Western Europeans and Muslims in Europe. “There is a demographic catastrophe happening in Europe that nobody wants to talk about, that we daren’t bring up because we are so cagey about not offending people racially. And rightly we should be. But there is a cultural thing as well ... By 2020, fifty percent of the children in Holland under the age of 18 will be of Muslim descent ...

“And don’t forget, coupled with this there is this collapse of numbers. Western Europeans are not having any babies. The population of Germany at the end of the century is going to be 56% of what it is now. The populations of France, 52% of what it is now. The population of Italy is going to be down 7 million people.

“There is a change happening in the very complexion of Western civilization in Europe that we should think about at least and argue about. If it just means the replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, that doesn’t matter too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western civilization with a different civilization with different cultural values, then it is something we really ought to discuss — because, [hang it all], I am for dead-white-male culture!”

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279 comments

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1 AG in Houston  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:53:21pm

Who? What?

2 Eric in Denver  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:54:04pm

There is still one dwarf who draws breath in Moria!


What clarity, from an actor. Wonderful. Now he will be ripped a new ass by the Uruk Hai of the liberal media.

3 Ron  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:55:03pm

Can we just go ahead and give him an Oscar?

4 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:55:53pm

Bravo!!! Not only is Rhys-Davies on the right side, but he's eloquent about it too!
His father sure was prescient. Who would have thought that, in the fifties, before there was an oil stranglehold, before there was Qutb and Bin Laden...Brilliant.

5 Eric in Denver  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:56:15pm

Maybe not an Oscar, but if there is an anti-Fiskie for actors, this guy's a shoo-in.

6 Steven  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:56:20pm

Ladies and gentlemen, the next governor of California...

7 BH  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 1:59:51pm

What's cool about the anti-idiotarians is that they can tell you exactly how they feel and why. All the moonbat tools seem to be able to muster is a heartfelt "um, I just think that war is bad... a really bad thing. We should try to get along and understand one another, and then dubya wouldn't have to bomb children and puppies for oil."

8 friend  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:00:58pm

Remember when they had the meeting about the ring in Rivendell, Gimli tried to smash the ring with his axe. A dwarf of action instead of words. I always liked Gimli.

9 Josh  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:02:00pm

wow, great response.
I've always thought of Tolkein as writing in defense of western civilization. I suppose the ring represents nuclear weapons, but it's hard to say.

I do expect CAIR and liberal media folks to bash him as a racist soon. typical.

10 John Gibbon  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:02:30pm

"...OOOps, Sorry Viggo, I dropped me battle axe on your neck"

You know, I liked Viggo up until the point he started wearing the "No Blood for Oil" t-shirt. It is good that there is some balance and clarity on that cast.

Gimli is the hero of the LOTR

11 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:03:25pm

Those are some pretty bold words for a movie related interview.

12 freedomsound  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:04:48pm

Viggo Mortensen and John Rhys-Davies, like night and day. What a breath of fresh air to read Rhys-Davies' honorable words after seeing Viggo's shameful appearance on stage with the ANSWER orcs.

13 Abu McKinney  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:05:19pm

Interesting. Before LOTR, Rhys-Davis was probably most well known for playing Sallah (a Muslim, I believe) in the Indiana Jones movies!

I was in Berlin last week when the European opening of Der Herr der Ringe occurred. The TV stations were all showing Dippo on stage shouting "Thanks for not invading Iraq!" at the German fans.

I'd like to see a Rhys-Davis and James Wood joint interview.

14 John Gibbon  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:07:40pm

I wonder how they (Viggo and Rhys-Davis) ever got along on the set, they had many scenes together. I guess they were professional enough to leave their politics in the trailer.

He sounds alot like James Woods

15 Neo: We got him!  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:08:07pm

Well, Aulë designed the Dwarves to have anti-Idiotarian tendencies because Melkor was still at large in the beginning.

/Silmarillion

16 KevinV  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:08:14pm

I went to school with his son (at Cal), who was just as cool as he is, AND he has the same "ha-ha-ha-ha!" deep laugh, which seems natural and not part of the Sallah character.

Great guy, and looks like his Dad knows what's what.

I always preferred the Dwarves to the Elves....

17 Minstrel  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:09:16pm

Woohoo! Now my concience won't bother me when I watch the movies! He provides the perfect balance to Viggo.

I pity Viggo more than anything; he compared Bush to Sauron, so by his own analogy his character is comparable to Saddam Hussien/bin Laden/insert maniacal Islamonazi here. Something tells me that he really didn't think it through before he said it.

18 ND MN TX  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:09:33pm

It's really surprising how when you least expect it, someone comes along and totally amazes you with their level of clarity and sound judgement. I have always liked professionalism that Rhys Davies injected into whatever role he played, even though the film, etc. he was in might not have been the best, one always was left with the impression that the part assigned to Rhys Davies was impeccably done. It would be interesting to hear more wisdom from the mentor his father must have been. Kudos to John and Charles for picking it up and runnin with it.

19 Eric Jablow  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:12:20pm

#13 Abu McKinney

Don't forget John Malkovich. Anyone who moves out of France for political reasons is fine with me.

20 Minstrel  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:13:12pm

Something else that's interesting to remember: the elves (in the BOOK, not the movie) were largely anti-idiotarian and in fact waged many wars against Melkor (a.k.a. Morgoth) and his lieutenant, Sauron. They were more like the Rohirrim; running into battle full-tilt bozo, singing fierce songs and laying waste to the enemy wherever they found him.

So, to quote the most famous movie review of all time: "Ehh, the book was better."

21 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:14:36pm
22 aaron's rantblog  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:16:14pm

Though loath to ascribe direct allegories to LOTR, Gimli, according to Tolkien, was the "Jewish" character.

The Tolkien newsgroup FAQ says:

One occasional charge is that Tolkien was anti-semitic, presumably because he occasionally compared his Dwarves to Jews. Those comparisons seem to focus on history and language, however: in Letter #176 he says, "I do think of the 'Dwarves' like Jews: at once native and alien in their habitations, speaking the languages of the country, but with an accent due to their own private tongue.....". And he seems to have had a very positive view of the Jewish people in general. For example, when discussing the origins of the name "Tolkien" in the final footnote to Letter #325, he says, "It is not Jewish in origin, though I should consider it an honour if it were."
23 Hicks  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:16:49pm

Good to see.

Also, Saruman is clearly Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

24 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:17:14pm
25 aaron's rantblog  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:17:43pm

Forgot to mention that my grandfather, a scholar of Old English, knew Tolkien. I wish I had had more time to discuss this with him when he was living. I had not yet become interested in LOTR.

26 Neo: We got him!  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:17:50pm
Ladies and gentlemen, the next governor of California...

Beverage alert!

27 Jheka  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:21:04pm

Not just right-on but brilliantly said. Rhys-Davies, James Woods, John Malkovich, Larry Miller . . . good to see artists with brains.

28 Iron Fist  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:21:21pm

Just wait. Some nutter will call him a racist for this line, even though it clearly isn't:


“There is a change happening in the very complexion of Western civilization in Europe that we should think about at least and argue about. If it just means the replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, that doesn’t matter too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western civilization with a different civilization with different cultural values, then it is something we really ought to discuss — because, [hang it all], I am for dead-white-male culture!”


I'm getting ready to watch The Two Towers, and can't wait for ROTK :-)

29 seafarious  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:23:50pm

Praise Be! I'm going to see the premiere of Return of the Hypocrite tomorrow, and now I will know that at least one member of the Fellowship is on my team.

30 NitneLiun  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:25:28pm

Very few people realize it, but the writings of Tolkien are heavy with Catholic themes. He was a devout Catholic. It is difficult to determine whether inclusion of these themes was intentional or just a latent product of his faith, but they are there.

31 Josh (Different Josh)  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:27:36pm

John-Rhys Davies was also pretty good in Sliders - perhaps Maximillian Arturo came to this conclusion after escaping the horrors of Sharia-Chomsky alternative earth!

32 James  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:28:04pm

But Viggo used to be married to Exene Cervenka, which you have to admit it pretty cool.

33 Glen Wishard  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:28:13pm
“I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged,” said John Rhys-Davies, “and if they do not rise to meet that challenge, they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.”

What do you know, an actor who can read.

Unlike Viggo Mortensen, who went for the part of Aragorn because his son told him LOTR was a great book.

34 Neo: We got him!  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:28:22pm

Well, the ideals of courage in the face of evil, self-sacrifice, and many others in LotR are crucial to Christianity.

35 Elizabeth  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:28:50pm

Good for John Rhys-Davies! I've followed his career for years. He's one of my favorite Brit actors. Years ago when James Robertson Justice died, Rhys-Davies took over those parts which needed a bearded Scot of girth with attitude. I had no idea that he'd been following the current world politics but it's comforting to see that not all actors are totally self-absorbed.

As someone said, John Rhys-Davies and James Woods in a film together! Two clear thinkers, both with razor-sharp wit and quick tongues. Bless them both as a light unto a dark place. Keep them safe.

36 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:30:34pm

James-whoah, that is pretty cool.

37 Former CNN Watcher  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:31:47pm

"Rhys-Davies revealed that as far back as 1955 his father had predicted that 'the next World War will be between Islam and the West.'"

But how right was Pop?

How many countries of the West will be onside when the war *really* breaks out?

THAT is the big question.

38 Cybrludite  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:34:10pm

Gollum on the other had has become a Hip-Hop star...

39 freedomsound  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:39:45pm

#38 Cybrludite

LMAO! That is precious.

40 Donna V.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:41:05pm

Tolkien was definitely not an anti-semite. In the '30's, one of the top Nazis (I think it was Goebbels), wrote a fan letter to Tolkien . The Nazi asked, bye-the-bye, whether Tolkien was Jewish, since it would not do to admire the novels of a non-Aryan. Tolkien said something to the effect that no, he was not Jewish - he did not have the honor of belonging to that ancient and distinguished people.

Rod Dreher of NRO brought up a good point a few weeks ago. He noted that many Hollywood movies ("Lord of the Rings" "Braveheart," "Rob Roy" "Glory," "Saving Private Ryan," etc.) celebrate bravery and courage on the battlefield. Isn't it interesting that the message these movies convey seem to have no effect whatsoever on many of those who star in them? There's a total disconnect. Especially true in the case of Viggo.

41 Elizabeth  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:44:35pm

Another entertainer with courage is Lauren Holly who was performing at a Christmas concert at the Vatican in front of all the grand poobahs of the Church minus His Holiness.

Before she began she stood and berated them all and the church as men of immorality and corruption who should be ashamed for themselves. I gather she let them have both barrels. There was stunned silence. Later, some aide to one of the Cardinals called her actions "uneducated and without respect for the place she was in and who she was addressing".

You go girl!

I've no idea where she comes down on the WoT but just getting close enough to those insular men at the top of the Church of Rome was a good score.

Bravo, Lauren!

42 Tish  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:45:44pm

You go, Gimli!

And you are right, BH (#7) - I never HAVE understood why it is that the LLL, who cannot express why they have the views they do - and cannot support those views with facts - seem to think that their inarticulateness is a guarantee of moral superiority.

43 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:46:13pm

Very few people realize it, but the writings of Tolkien are heavy with Catholic themes.

First I read that Led Zeppelin is inspired by Tolkien, now I read that Tolkien was inspired by Catholicism. So could Zeppelin be indirectly inspired by Catholicism? Hmmmm....

That would give a whole new spin on "Stairway to Heaven" - maybe a reference to The Assumption?

44 friend  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:46:26pm

#15 neo we got him: Right! And the dwarves were given free will as a gift. They had minds of their own and weren't too diplomatic.

45 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:46:40pm

Elizabeth-Lauryn Hill.

46 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:49:40pm

Compared to Howard Dean, this guy's a giant.

47 Glen Wishard  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 2:50:52pm

#35 - Elizabeth

I remember him best for his roles in two Brit TV series - Reilly, Ace of Spies and I, Claudius.

In Claudius he was Macro, the Praetorian Guard captain who overthrew Sejanus (Patrick Stewart) and smothered Tiberius with a pillow.

48 bubba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:01:39pm

Rhys-Davies has been a favorite of mine since he played the cutlass-rattling Portuguese navigator Rodriguez, or Rodrigo-san, in the the t.v. mini-series Shogun. He played the part with a relish that is now even better appreciated.

And having recently finished The Rise and Fall of the British Empire, his father's sentiments in 1955 about an eventual clash with the Muslim east were not at all unusual at that time. However, it was a secular East dominated by Nasser that most of them were worried about. That era marked the last time the Frogs and Brits showed national initiative; a year later over the nationalization of the Suez Canal.

Europe has been in a slow retreat, decline and deliberate attempt to deny the obvious, well except for the Brits to an extent (Falklands, eh?), ever since.

49 Abu McKinney  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:02:51pm

Slightly OT, but here is another gem from one of our favorite white male Westerners, Mark Steyn. Lots of great riffs ("infidel tongue depressor"). Enjoy.

50 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:03:40pm

OT, but since I brought up Led Zeppelin, I thought y'all might enjoy this:

What if Famous Composers* had written Stairway to Heaven?

*Franz Schubert, Gustav Holst, Glen Miller, Gustav Mahler, Georges Bizet, Ludwig von Beethoven

51 Darleen  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:06:29pm

OT

Who the hell voted for this idiot???

WASHINGTON - Rep. Jim McDermott, D-Wash., who earned headlines across the globe last year for criticizing President Bush (news - web sites) while in Baghdad, is enmeshed in a new controversy over remarks he made about the capture of Saddam Hussein (news - web sites
In an interview Monday with a Seattle radio station, McDermott said the U.S. military could have found the former Iraqi dictator "a long time ago if they wanted."
Asked if he thought the weekend capture was timed to help Bush, McDermott chuckled and said, "Yeah. Oh, yeah."
52 Jettison  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:09:00pm

From FotR:

FRODO: I wish the Ring had never come to me. I wish none of this had happened...

GANDALF: So do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

Tony Blair:

I know out there, there's a guy getting on with his life, perfectly happily, minding his own business, saying to you, the political leaders of this country, "Why me, and why us, and why America?" And the only answer is because destiny put you in this place in history in this moment in time, and the task is yours to do.

I have more analysis over at Blogs for Bush.

53 Rayra[deleted]  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:10:13pm
54 JohninLondon  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:11:05pm

#49 Abu

Yes - Mark Steyn's piece in Tuesday's Telegraph is as trenchant and funny as usual !!! His headline kicks it off -

"The Ba'athist who won't bath" LOL

55 rumcrook  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:11:19pm

donna V. thats a good point ive wondered about it myself.

I think its due to a couple of things

1. a need to disavow the make believe violence they participate in on screen, with the knee jerk liberalism that permeates thier outlook on life.

2. thier liberalism is so extreme that they have no moral compass as a "normal" person has. instead they have morals based on what is politically "right" for thier leftism, meaning if it is contrary to the goals of thier left wing agenda its immoral, including removing a genocidal despot if its being done by a political adversary. conversly its moral to slander bush for his removal of saddam just because he's the the "political enemy" of the left.

right now the same people who were either silent about saddams mass murder or right up till the present have downplayed his crimes are now starting a low rumble over the disposition and treatment of saddam as inhumane. its morality based on political goals not true right and wrong good and evil.


they wouldnt have a structure to defend liberalism/leftism if they applied traditional universal judeo-christian morals and ethics to thier politics, because they are indefensible by those standards.

56 Glen Wishard  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:14:09pm

#40 - Donna V.

The letter was actually from a publisher who wanted to print a German edition of The Hobbit. German law required authors to prove that they were "Aryan" before they could be published.

Tolkien wrote two replies to the letter - one polite and one not-so-polite. He sent both letters to Allen & Unwin and let them decide which they would send to the Germans. Only one letter survives, and nobody knows if it was the "polite" one, or if it was the one that was sent, but it says in part:

... if I am to understand that you are enquiring whether I am of Jewish origin, I can only reply that I regret that I appear to have no ancestors of that gifted people ... I have been accustomed, nonetheless, to regard my German name with pride, and continued to do so throughout the period of the late regrettable war, in which I served in the English army. I cannot, however, forbear to comment that if impertinent and irrelevant inquiries of this sort are to become the rule in matters of literature, then the time is not far distant when a German name will no longer be a source of pride.

He also couldn't resist punching a hole in the "Aryan" delusion:

I regret that I am not clear as to what you intend by arisch. I am not of Aryan extraction: that is, Indo-iranian; as far as I am aware none of my ancestors spoke Hindustani, Persian, Gypsy, or any related dialects.

57 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:20:42pm

#41 Elizabeth

Another entertainer with courage is Lauren Holly


Yea real "courage" showing up at a gig with no repercussion. This a@@hat like you do a little cheap Catholic bashing and you "feel" good. Maybe a Sharia stoning would do Lauren HILL some good.

58 andthenblammo!  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:24:10pm

#50 Frank IBC:

Thanks, that link made my life complete. No, really, it did!

59 Baldy  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:24:19pm

Isn't it sad that one can list right-thinking actors, yet the other side is too numerous to list. Glad to hear this. I'm so used to actors use their fame to promote lefty causes.

60 Dizzy  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:24:58pm

Mine's a tale that can't be told, my freedom I hold dear.
How years ago in days of old, when magic filled the air.
T'was in the darkest depths of Mordor, I met a girl so fair.
But Gollum, and the evil one crept up and slipped away with her, her, her....yeah.

/Led Zeppelin - Ramble On

61 Donna V.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:25:11pm

Glen: glad you fact-checked my ass on that one. I was trying to accurately remember something I read about 2 years ago. Alas, my steel trap of a mind has rusted :-)

rumcrook: good points.

62 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:26:37pm

ralph, if it's Catholic bashing to point out the craven reaction that the Vatican has had to the pervasive gross sexual predation upon children by its officers and executives, then you can count me as a Catholic basher too. In my own opinion, though- (probably unwelcome but so?)-I'm a Vatican basher, not a Catholic basher. Or haven't you noticed that a lot of Catholics are equally angry with the Church and would jump at the chance to say what Lauryn said in the forum that she said it?

63 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:28:15pm

You can expect an uprising of protest against LOTR.
I expect the muslims will demand that it be banned because it is racist and biggoted against the 'race of muslims'.
There is a book banning and burning coming in the future, all of the wonderful masterpieces will torn to shreds and the remnants will be burned as well. All vestiges of western culture and history will be wiped out and replaced with rotting corpses in the city streets, pan epidemic of all kinds of diseases. No educational system, no libraries, no hospitals or schools. The western caucasions will find themselves groveling and bending their backs in abject fear of insulting a muslim.
There will be no music, no song even song birds will be outlawed. Only the muezzins cry will be heard in a musical scale. There will be no painting, no photography, no arts. The creative will be prohibitive, if caught punished severely. There will be no laughter, no joy, no safety, no loyalty and no hope.

This is the future the wahabis have in mind for the kufr.

64 Emmett  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:30:02pm

Donna V. and rumcrook:

Also bear in mind that most of the Hollywood crowd are extremely shallow and emotionally immature. Look at their sordid personal lives, bad behavior in public, penchant for mid-altering substances, etc. I imagine it’s pretty easy to ignore things you'd rather not acknowledge when you're the type of person who changes spouses as easily and as often as a pair of socks.

65 aaron's rantblog  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:30:52pm

#38 No, Gollum is the Dhimmicrat's primary hit-man.

Check this out.

66 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:37:27pm

#62 evariste

ralph, if it's Catholic bashing to point out the craven reaction that the Vatican has had to the pervasive gross sexual predation upon children by its officers and executives, then you can count me as a Catholic basher too.

The woman was given a platform to sing her songs. If she feels it is necessary to point out the wrongs of the Catholic church, she may use the media that is available. Showing up at a party and making an a## of yourself is hardly "courageous". And where is the attack against Islam for the wretchedness caused by its implementation?

67 Q  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:41:01pm

quark2 (#63):

Fortunately, their ability to accomplish anything is inversely proportional to their malice.

Unfortunately, a sizeable minority within our own camp passionately wishes for our destruction -- and actively works towards that goal; and the majority is simply asleep -- including, possibly, the leaders.

They can win, but only if we let them to.

68 Adam  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:43:11pm

While there's a strong Good-vs.-Evil running throughout Tolkien's work, I believe he explicitly denied that LotR was meant to be a commentary on modern society, such as the ring being analogous to nuclear weapons.

The Dwarvish language invented by Tolkien was strongly influenced structurally by Hebrew, apparently. See here. And don't forget that it was for the languages first of all that Tolkien created his world.

69 Donna V.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:43:41pm

From #49 abu mckinney's link to the always excellent Steyn:

For the Palestinians, who never met a loser they weren't dumb enough to fall for (the Mufti, Nasser, Yasser), Saddam still has an honoured place in the Pantheon of Glorious Has-Beens.

Perfect!

70 Glen Wishard  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:46:54pm

Frank IBC -

Okay, I got nothing against Zeppelin. But dragging that demented LSD-and-bongwater ditty Stairway to Heaven into Beethoven's glorious Ninth is outrageous blasphemy.

71 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:48:25pm

Tolkien always insisted that his characters and situations were not allegorical, and people such as Frank Rich, various conservative writers, and a writer for Jewsweek all sound silly for foisting their interpretations on the LOTR.

What Tolkien DID have; however, was an unnerving eye for the universal, recurring characteristics of fascism, and how humanity reacts to it.

1st: The orcs at the battle of Helm's Deep: their goal is to wipe out humanity by slaughtering the women and children. (How many times in history have we seen this, and how is it appropriate to what's happening now?)

2nd: Treebeard and his comrades choose to "stay out of the war" and remain neutral until many of their friends are massacred. (Sound familiar?)

3rd: When the men of Gondor start going across the countryside in pursuit of the orcs, and they tell the king that mankind must start fighting NOW, Wormtail calls them "wormgongers" and encourages the king to bargain with Sauron.

John Rhys-Davies' general analysis of what Tolkien is saying is probably the best I've read recently. It's also worth noting that Jackson didn't attend last year's Academy Awards Ceremony.

Good for Davies, and good for Jackson.

72 rumcrook  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:49:41pm

as a catholic I can say with clarity, sadness and anger that the disposition of these scandels and the dispicable way these priests were shuffled from unsuspecting parish to unsuspecting parish like a hot potato bespeaks of the moral failings and outright evil of men with the disire to protect power and prestige over innocents. they stood as the only protection between the weak and the predatory, then they stepped aside.

the pediphiles are sociopathic evildoers, what can you expect from them except evil, but the church leaders who did nothing.... well, thier dispicable on a whole other level. they willingly set in motion the shame of the church and the destruction of innocence.

73 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:50:49pm

Well, she was at the Vatican. I mean, really-where's the attack on Scientology?

Showing up at a party and making an a## of yourself is hardly "courageous".

You're right, it's not courageous. But part of the problem with the Catholic heirarchy is insularism and lack of direct feedback. Ancient Cardinals are spoon-fed rosy information by the Church and by their own secretaries. I doubt they even realize, or can be made to realize, exactly how scandalized the American laity is, or exactly how tone-deaf their response so far has been. I think Lauryn Hill was doing the isolated princes something of a favor by so rudely calling attention to their shame and disgrace before their flock, right in the lap of their luxury, with no clerical filter to reassure them that everything was all right. Courageous? Not especially. Rude? Yeah. Very necessary? Oh yeah.

74 Mordred  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:54:10pm

IMPORTANT: Another anti idiotarian must-read by Barbara Amiel:

We must never be forced to legislate against our own culture:


[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]

75 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:55:20pm

my #73 was in reply to #66 ralph.
Ralph, is rumcrook a Catholic-basher? I think not. I'm not either, and my not being Catholic doesn't make me ineligible to criticize the behavior of the Church. The same applies to Lauryn Hill. At worst, she was rude. I doubt you can find her guilty of anti-Catholic bigotry, though.
The same principle applies in a similar vein to those that cried Chickenhawk at non-serving warbloggers. It's a like fallacy.

76 Brian Tiemann  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:57:15pm

#24 Rayra--

#9 Josh, better read some more. The One Ring as written about in The Hobbit predates the Atomic bomb by a couple decades.

Yes, but remember that the Ring in the setting of The Hobbit really wasn't envisioned as the great and terrible world-changing thing that it later came to be in Tolkien's mythos. When Bilbo found it, Tolkien had some vague ideas for its later significance (which he hinted at in the text), but its role at the time wasn't as much more than a cute little magic thing that turned you invisible.

It took WWII to galvanize him into writing LotR. But even then, most of the book was written before the bombs fell, so you're probably right to a certain extent that ascribing the nuclear allegory to the Ring is something done by modern-day reviewers more than by Tolkien himself.

77 McBain  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:57:57pm

#42 Tish- If it helps:

The narcotic thrill of self-righteousness is particularly seductive to stupid people.

--Holman W. Jenkins Jr. in the Nov. 3 2003 OpinionJournal Political Diary

78 K.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:58:05pm

Too bad Viggo doesn't get the point of the LOTR, that's pretty disappointing.

But "BRAVO!" to Rhys-Davies. It's wonderful to find free thinkers in the entertainment industry.

79 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 3:58:58pm

@57 ralph

You are a rude twit too.
The fact that you would come on a website that is
totally against stoning anyone and recommend it.
You think it's smarmy to post such tripe, making Charles' site look biggoted.

Why don't you take a flying twisted leap through a mild dewed buffalo chip.

80 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:03:24pm

#73 evariste

Well, she was at the Vatican. I mean, really-where's the attack on Scientology?


If you do not wish to proceed with the function you are invited to, you can decline the invitation. But lefty entertainers need a stage to "sell" their views. Their views could also incorporate the slaughter of Muslims by Muslims.

But part of the problem with the Catholic heirarchy is insularism and lack of direct feedback.


Tell that to the Muslims.

I think Lauryn Hill was doing the isolated princes something of a favor by so rudely calling attention to their shame and disgrace before their flock, right in the lap of their luxury, with no clerical filter to reassure them that everything was all right. Courageous? Not especially. Rude? Yeah. Very necessary? Oh yeah.


Find the central authority of Islam and there may be a discussion.

81 K.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:05:59pm

#43 Frank IBC

That would give a whole new spin on "Stairway to Heaven" - maybe a reference to The Assumption?

Jacob fell asleep at Beth El and saw a stairway leading up to heaven. It's in Genesis somewhere.

82 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:07:11pm

@65 Q

You are so right.

I am hoping we will see in the near future an arising of near legendary leaders from the sleeping folds of our culture.
After watching "Band of Brothers", and seeing how the men were reformed in the midst of battle I think it can happen again. But, I fear we will witness the suffering and great loss of much before it happens.

We have conveniently forgotten the sleeping barbarian that hides within the breast of the europeans.

83 K.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:08:33pm

#71 davesax

Wormtail calls them "wormgongers"

LOL. That's "warmongers"

84 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:11:17pm

#79 quark2

You are a rude twit too.

Quote in full:

Yea real "courage" showing up at a gig with no repercussion. This a@@hat like you do a little cheap Catholic bashing and you "feel" good. Maybe a Sharia stoning would do Lauren HILL some good.

quark2 You've got that job at Reuters.

85 K.  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:12:40pm

Question for LGFers from the former USSR:

Was LOTR officially censored in the Soviet Union? I know that it wasn't translated and published (incompletely) until the perestroika.

86 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:13:15pm

ralph, that's fucking ridiculous. So you can't criticize the Catholic Church until you've criticized muslims?
I have no idea what you're talking about any more. Apparently it doesn't matter what I say, what facts I marshal or what sequence of logic I follow; "but what about the muslims" trumps all. Come on. Oh, and by the way, you said

And where is the attack against Islam for the wretchedness caused by its implementation?

Which is not at all a good analogy for what Lauryn Hill was doing, because she wasn't attacking Catholicism, she was attacking the Church and its abusive priests for their un-Catholic behavior.

According to Italy's La Repubblica newspaper, Hill read a statement criticizing the church and launched into a tirade against abusive priests. "I realize some of you may be offended by what I'm saying, but what do you say to the families who were betrayed by the people in whom they believed?" she reportedly told the audience, which included several church officials but not the Pope.

I think I've characterised what she said accurately.

87 Q  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:16:22pm

quark2 (#82):

But, I fear we will witness the suffering and great loss of much before it happens.

Yes, that is my fear, too.

It seems that Islam is so inherently self-defeating, that our eventual victory is assured. (Unless, once again, we manage to outdo them in self-destructiveness). The only question , thus, is the price that the victory will extract -- both in blood and in spirit.

88 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:18:08pm

The vast Catholic church has forgotten it's place. ALL men are sinners, including the ones who are in control of the catholic empire. By surrounding themselves with earthly richness, they have forgotten the warning of becoming enamoured and idolizing things made of gold and silver. The kingdom of G-d is not materialistic, it is of the spirit.
They need a good rude slap to wake them up from their centuries old slumbers. They are not in the business of building beautiful buildings filled with man made marvels, but to go and to gather the Lord's sheep and save their souls.
This horrendous complicity of covering up the crimes of pedophilia is immoral and unjustifiable. Now the more they dig the more they realize they have no idea how many generations of this secret has been hidden from the church's lay members.
So I guess even though I am an ex catholic that I am a rude basher too. So be it!

89 someone  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:19:50pm

Wow. Perhaps he's a closet lizardoid.

90 Paladin  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:21:46pm

#88 quark2

"Wolves will get in amongst the sheep and will not spare the flock."

I read that somewhere.

91 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:25:38pm

#86 evariste

. So you can't criticize the Catholic Church until you've criticized muslims?


Ask NPR?

Which is not at all a good analogy for what Lauryn Hill was doing, because she wasn't attacking Catholicism, she was attacking the Church and its abusive priests for their un-Catholic behavior.

The next party you go to please vomit and then accuse your hosts that it's their fault.

92 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:28:48pm

#91 ralph-Okay, that whole post is bullshit. You obviously aren't interested in having a conversation, just in feeling right and making wildly off-the-mark overblown analogies to help you pretend you're right. Fine. I won't waste any more brain juice then.

93 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:30:17pm

@84 ralph

Oh you wouldn't want that. The truth would make your ears bleed.
You are beginning to look a whole lot like an L3.

Bang on evariste!

94 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:30:58pm

#88 quark2

This horrendous complicity of covering up the crimes of pedophilia is immoral and unjustifiable

DO YOU KNOW FOR A FACT WHAT BARBAROUS ACTIVITIES THAT MUSLIM CLERICS HAVE BEEN ENGAGED WITH OVER THE LAS DECADE???

95 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:34:09pm

Don't you think quark2 knows that? What the hell are you talking about? Just changing the subject because you're losing the argument? Again, screaming "but the muslims are even worse" doesn't excuse it.

96 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:34:49pm

And we can do without the all-caps, really.

97 Norwegian kafir  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:37:42pm

Frank IBC, talking about Led Zeppelin : Did you know that Robert Plant, former lead singer of LZ, CHANGED the wording of John Lennon's "Imagine", which he was singing at the concert in Oslo honoring Nobel Peace Prize winner Sherin Ebadi from Iran. The original lyrics contain the words "......and no religion, too." Plant was singing: ".....and no DIVISION, too. " Presumably, not to hurt the feelings of the mullahs in Iran....

[Link: www.faithfreedom.org...]


#87 Q : It seems that Islam is so inherently self-defeating, that our eventual victory is assured. The only question , thus, is the price that the victory will extract -- both in blood and in spirit.

My thoughts exactly, Q. Western civilization WILL win. But the price in blood, especially in my native Europe, which is deep asleep, could get high.

98 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:39:32pm

@90 Paladin

I just tried to google that, didn't bring up any matches.
But there's a literate wizard here that can tell where that quote comes from.

99 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:40:30pm

#93 quark2

The truth would make your ears bleed.

Like the L3, argument has not a place.

100 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:40:54pm

This is great. LGFers arguing amongst each other over the Catholic Church. Wonderful.

I can't wait until February, when Mel Gibson's "The Jews are Bloodthirsty" Passion Play comes out. Then the Christian-Jewish alliance will REALLY be tested, and LGFers will be put to the ultimate empathy challenge.

Stay tuned. This is only the beginning.

101 Paladin  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:42:53pm

#98 quark2

It's from one of St. Paul's letters. I forget to whom.

102 OrangeJuice  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:43:31pm

This is OT but how familiar are you guys with Frank Herbert's Dune series? Herbert was pretty good with predictions considering the whole series is pretty much about the destructive nature of Islam and it's fanatical followers. Those books are more relevant now than when they were published.

103 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:44:54pm

#95 evariste

Don't you think quark2 knows that? What the hell are you talking about? Just changing the subject because you're losing the argument? Again, screaming "but the muslims are even worse" doesn't excuse it.

LOST ANOTHER ARGUMENT TO ditech.

104 Korora  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:45:24pm

This is a refreshing offset to Viggo, who, were he on Arda in III-3019, would be saying "Aragorn is Morgoþ!"

105 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:45:49pm

@94 ralph

I am NOT talking about the muslims here, I have NOT alluded to them in my posts to YOU.

You are a manipulative wanker, trying to twist the conversation into a different direction because you don't like the take you're recieving.

So why don't you just take a hike.

106 Paladin  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:48:56pm

#105 quark2

I assume you understood what I was saying.

107 Dave  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:50:14pm

They obviously had Bush and 9-11 in mind when they started editing these movies and damn they have magnificent timing:

3 months after I comes out, 9/11.
3 months after II comes out, we invade Iraq.
Less than one week before III is released, Saddam Hussein gets captured and the number 1 bogeyman for americans is long gone.

Can anyoune else feel a American-Zionist-New Line Cinema conspiracy theory coming on from the Arab world?

Check out Jonah Goldberg for something he wrote last year about LOTR and the Left ([Link: www.nationalreview.com...] and also please check out my blog - [Link: www.aurepublicans.blogspot.com...]

108 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:50:16pm

davesex

This thread was hijacked.


ralph

You are a waste of time and keyboard strokes.

I'm finished posting to you.

109 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:50:52pm

#100 davesax

I can't wait until February, when Mel Gibson's "The Jews are Bloodthirsty" Passion Play comes out.

Why wait. Read MEMRI tomorrow. Love your clairvoyance. Can you also tell us about the money behind the Syrians "Elders of Zion" production?

110 freedomsound  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:50:53pm

#100 davesax

Except that the current argument does not seem to be divided along those lines at all.

111 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:51:23pm

OrangeJuice, we had almost a whole thread about Dune one day! That and Linux :-)
davesax-I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, I think most lgfers are OK with the movie. I mean, historical accuracy is not antisemitism. And most of us are pretty right wing, so I doubt that the knee-jerk protests of some ultraliberal at ADL are gonna be too influential.
Plus this would count as an argument if ralph was actually arguing. Instead he's dodging, evading, changing the subject, and making specious comparisons, all in the name of the honor of the criminal perfumed princes that are denying justice in order to protect sexual predators. He certainly hasn't made a single argument yet-not one with logic and a train of thought. I'll be interested to see if he does, but I doubt it. If someone cares to hop in where ralph is falling short and actually make a counterpoint that might spur further conversation, I would welcome it. I doubt it, though-not many people are inclined to try and defend the indefensible.

112 Ron  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:52:13pm
Unlike Viggo Mortensen, who went for the part of Aragorn because his son told him LOTR was a great book.

EEK! Now i'm gonna have nightmares just knowing that he's reproduced.

Any chance of a new "Hollywood Child Abuse" theme being started up, Charles?

113 Ron  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:53:29pm

Oh, and my Oscar hopes for Rhys-Davies are mainly because I'd love to hear his acceptance speech.

114 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:54:25pm

@106 Paladin

I have a nice bible study E-sword that I'll use to look it up. Thanx :)

115 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:54:51pm

#105 quark2

Lost another argument to DITECH.

116 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:57:15pm

quark2, please don't dignify this retardation with a reply.

117 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 4:58:08pm

#111 evariste

Instead he's dodging, evading, changing the subject, and making specious comparisons, all in the name of the honor of the criminal perfumed princes that are denying justice in order to protect sexual predators.

You are talking about Mohammed?

118 James  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:00:06pm

So much for me wanting to see the new LOTR movie, I think I'll stick with the books.

119 lone voice abu mullah medulla  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:00:39pm

It's Wormtongue!

120 Siren (learning Elvish)  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:01:18pm

Ok, so as I post this, my countdown timer says I have 1 day, 4 hours, and 58 minutes until ROTK!

(We are going to the 11:59pm showing tomorrow night. Why 11:59, I have no clue...)

After reading this thread, I'll definitely pay more attention to Gimli.... ;D

31 Josh (Different Josh) 12/15/2003 04:27PM PST

John-Rhys Davies was also pretty good in Sliders -

Thank you for reminding me! For weeks now I've been trying to figure out why his name was familiar. Now I know! :D

121 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:01:19pm

Paladin

I havent uncovered that quote yet. I'll keep looking.

122 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:01:23pm

#111 evariste

If someone cares to hop in where ralph is falling short and actually make a counterpoint that might spur further conversation, I would welcome it.


LOST ANOTHERONE TO DIETECH

123 Bigstar  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:03:35pm

loved him in SLIDERS

124 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:05:18pm

davesax-I don't think it'll be that big of a deal, I think most lgfers are OK with the movie. I mean, historical accuracy is not antisemitism. And most of us are pretty right wing, so I doubt that the knee-jerk protests of some ultraliberal at ADL are gonna be too influential

I love it.

I'm Jewish, I'm not "ultraliberal" (neither is Foxman), and I and plenty of other Jewish LGFer's share Foxman's concerns.

Damn us "ultraliberals" who are concerned about Mel Gibson's passion for "historical accuracy".

125 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:06:32pm

@116 evariste

Oh don't worry, he's now in the same category as VFI as far as I am concerned. You know the drill, just keep on scrolling and auto ignore. :)

126 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:09:34pm

quark2, Paladin-it was Paul's farewell speech at Miletus to the elders of the church from Ephesus at the end of his third missionary journey, after spending three years there. It's in Acts 20:17-38.

127 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:10:48pm

#125 quark2-yups! I guess I lost another one to Dieschmuck.

128 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:10:50pm

#124 davesax

Damn us "ultraliberals" who are concerned about Mel Gibson's passion for "historical accuracy".


Want to hear about your review of a movie that has not been released. Are you clairvoyant?

129 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:15:56pm

@126 evariste

You are a doll!!! Thank you.
Did you get that Paladin? :)

130 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:18:05pm

davesax-well, I'm very sorry then. That was my impression of the fellow from the ADL (I'm not even sure if it's Foxman that I'm thinking of), for some reason, and I guess it was mistaken. And not to argue like, "Your Jew says this, but I got a Jew here says the other", but I read Michael Medved, who is Orthodox, saying that Foxman was being ridiculous, and I also remember reading some rabbi or another who'd actually seen it (unlike Foxman) who said it wasn't. As for the lgf consensus, I had read (without participating) a thread where people talked about it as if the ADL was blowing it way out of proportion and perhaps my perception is wrong there, as well. Either way, we'll see what it's like when it comes out, I guess. I hope it doesn't turn out to be antisemitic, because it sounds like a very promising movie. I don't have a religion, so I assure you that I'm not trying to have a preconceived notion about it.

131 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:20:45pm

#126 evariste

It's in Acts 20:17-38.

Yes let us reach back 2000 years ago. What is Usama bin Forgotten saying about the jews these days?

132 Darth Sidious  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:24:13pm

Go Gimli, Go Gimli, Go Gimli!!!!!!

133 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:26:28pm

#130:
I'm not prepared to condemn it before it's released, but I have to admit to being rather uneasy about the project. I grew up in England, and the atmosphere around Easter was often rather unpleasant. I remember the school choir singing Easter hymns--the line "Then 'Crucify!' was all their breath" ["they" being guess-who] and having my schoolmates asking me some unpleasant (and unfair) questions about why I killed God.

As for "historical accuracy"--I think it's fairer to say "faithful to the Gospel" [I don't remember which one it's based on]. The earliest Gospel was written about 30 years after Jesus was executed, and the last one about 150 years after, by which point there were a certain number of axes being ground.

No insults intended to any of my LGF buddies, especially those who made me cry on the We've Got Mail! thread.

134 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:27:35pm

When is Gibsons' movie supposed to start playing?

I haven't really stayed caught up with all of the news on it.

135 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:32:10pm

cba-on "historical accuracy" versus "faithfulness to the gospels"-you're right, of course, and that's what I meant to say. I'm sure no one takes offense to your well intentioned post. Besides, it's not Christians that insist that God wrote every infallible word :-)

136 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:33:08pm

Ralph:

I never said anything about reviewing the film, I merely said that many Jews in the LGF community share the ADL's concerns given the roll of passion plays in stirring anti-semitism. If you don't like it, I could care less.

And my point is that as a committed LGFer, I can't help but notice how, in the last year especially, any skepticism of the Catholic Church stokes the fires of ugly debate on these message boards, and people are labeled as "anti-Christian", etc. Which is what was happening in the above argument.

I'm simply making a fair and honest observation - that LGF as a community has some challenges ahead - and voiced concerns I've traded with some frequent, Jewish LGF regulars (who I'm sure you probably know on these boards) who will remain nameless.

And as far as the ADL's "ultraliberalism": Charles has posted more information about antisemitism than almost any non-Jewish blog on the net, and it has nothing to do with his being liberal or not. It has to do with him being an empathetic, top-notch human being.

So, try to bait someone else into arguing with you...I'm not interested.

137 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:34:59pm

@133 cba

Don't worry, it will all work out the way G-d has always intended it to. :)

I get so aggravated when I start hearing that old war cry about Jesus' crucifix. It doesn't matter what the Hebrews wanted, the bottom line is if the Romans had to told them to go stuff it, it would not have occured.
Most people seem to conveniently forget that. So, should we be pissed at the Italians?

138 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:37:11pm

#133 cba

I'm not prepared to condemn it before it's released, but I have to admit to being rather uneasy about the project

Radical Muslims Spark Fear in Iraqi Christians
By George Thomas
CBN News Sr. Reporter
December 15, 2003
Since the end of the first Gulf War, the Christian population of Iraq has dropped from nearly two million to about 800,000.

CBN.com – BAGHDAD -- November was a dangerous month for Christians in Iraq. A key Christian judge was killed in Mosul, bombs were found at two Christian schools, and many Christian students and families received notes to convert to Islam, or else.
[Link: www.cbn.com...]

139 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:39:28pm

davesax, I appreciate your thoughtful post and would like to apologize again for ignorantly bringing the term ultraliberal into the conversation, where I can see it has done no good at all. And I wasn't trying to imply that liberals are vigilant against antisemitism and conservatives are not; only that given my mistaken impression of Foxman as an ultraliberal, I found it easy to believe that he would have a hysterically PC overreaction. Once more, that was dumb.

140 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:40:56pm

evariste:

And not to argue like, "Your Jew says this, but I got a Jew here says the other"

Then don't argue that, evariste. Medved's "defence" was full of holes that were eloquently answered by the ADL. Medved, and the rabbi you're referring to, come from a minority of Jews who insist on 100% allegiance to the Christian right in all political matters: prayer in school, pro-life, etc..And finally, Medved is a close personal friend of Gibsons.

The man from the ADL who saw it was Rabbi Eugene Korn, hardly an "ultraliberal". He sited specific scenes that have him concerned.

Look, I love LGF...have come to this board for almost two years. But seeing this "anti-Christian" accusation being thrown around is unnerving for many jews, and that's why I brought this up.

And you don't have to apologize for anything, either.

141 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:46:42pm

#138:
But where are the globular clusters?

142 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:47:34pm

Train of thought... evariste, did you find out anything about Yair? I have to admit to being rather concerned.

143 andrew  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:48:46pm

evariste
I hate to gush, but you are one intelligent mf, you know that?

144 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:48:48pm

davesax,

Then don't argue that, evariste.

Good point. I wasn't actually trying to argue, just to say what influenced me to have the attitude towards the movie that I did. I only did so because I don't have any first-hand information, just various second-hand opinions to weigh. I guess I'll reserve my judgment for when it comes out and I actually see for myself.

And finally, Medved is a close personal friend of Gibsons.

Ah, see, I had no idea Medved had a dog in the fight. That shades his statements a little bit.

But seeing this "anti-Christian" accusation being thrown around is unnerving for many jews, and that's why I brought this up.

I wasn't trying to do that; only to answer your initial post wondering if lgf will have some strife when it comes out with my (erroneous, it turns out) impression.

145 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:49:03pm

#100 davesax

Then the Christian-Jewish alliance will REALLY be tested, and LGFers will be put to the ultimate empathy challenge.

I suspect that we will get through it all right.

146 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:51:11pm

Really evariste, no apologies.

You sound like a top-notch person (and sorry for all the bold before. Forgot to close it).

Look, my point is that Jews and Christians are united against a very common enemy, but we can't forget our difficult past and the respect and sensitivity we owe to one another. LGF is a unique community, because while on the surface it appears to be "right wing", I know there are many people on here (like myself) who are "liberals" that are very disenchanted with the left.

My concern about Gibson's Passion is how it will play in Europe and the Arab world. If, as Korn says, it portrays the Jewish priests as muscling the reluctant Romans into killing Christ, then it could play into the hands of jew-haters. Foxman may not be the most tactful of guys, but he's right to be concerned.

I hope that that doesn't happen, but I hope that if IT DOES, I can still come to LGF to have civilized discussions with people about my concerns, without being labeled "anti-Christian".

And when I see the "anti-Christian" thing being thrown around on this board at people who question some policies of the church, it makes me uneasy.

That's all I'm saying, and thanks for your posts.

147 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:51:13pm

cba, good job thinking of it, thanks. I was debating emailing him last night and meant to ask you what you thought; then I just forgot all about it. I'm gonna go email him right now.

148 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:51:36pm

#136 davesax

I merely said that many Jews in the LGF community share the ADL's concerns given the roll of passion plays in stirring anti-semitism.


Still waiting for the Vatican's recent production of " The Elder's of Zion Series"?

any skepticism of the Catholic Church stokes the fires of ugly debate on these message boards

Might have something to do with Western Civilization!

And as far as the ADL's "ultraliberalism": Charles has posted more information about antisemitism than almost any non-Jewish blog on the net, and it has nothing to do with his being liberal or not. It has to do with him being an empathetic, top-notch human being.

No it has to do with finding Islam wanting. Quit being so self centered!

149 JerryC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:51:48pm

I always liked that guy. I like him more now.

150 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:51:58pm

Damn! Just checked likbireh's flight--delayed until midnight!

So tomorrow's going to be another crap day for getting any work done.

Pttht!

151 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:53:00pm

@146 davesax

Your post is eloquent, and you have shown good grace.
You know that the regulars here are very much against anti semitism on any level.

I'm glad you've come back by the way.

152 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:55:38pm

#146 davesax:

I share your unease about the Gibson film. As for the other thing, well, most of the regulars will--except for the odd OTT post--react like quark2 and RIP Ford.

As for the globular clusters... well, I think it's safe to ignore them!

153 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:56:17pm

cba-dang! But that serves my selfish purposes. All will be revealed shortly.

154 andrew  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:58:37pm

#134 quark2

When is Gibsons' movie supposed to start playing?

I think it's supposed to start on Ash Wednesday.

155 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:59:40pm

#153:
Huh?
You're all mysterious, like justdanny was on Saturday.

Oh, oh, oh! Don't say you've captured OBL?! You clever boy, you! Or as andrew said (#146):

you are one intelligent mf, you know that?
156 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 5:59:44pm

Quark2:

Thanks a lot. Good to be here.

Ralph:

No it has to do with finding Islam wanting. Quit being so self centered!

Who's being self-centered here?

157 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:02:12pm

@145 RIP Ford

Damn your moustache! Since you posted you were sick, I've caught your bug off of my monitor!

158 andrew  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:03:18pm

quark2, you're not supposed to lick your monitor ;-)

159 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:03:49pm

K. -

Jacob at Beth El would fit, but my reason for thinking of the Assumption is the references to "The Lady" and "The May Queen".

160 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:05:27pm

Cba -

All will be revealed shortly.

Uh, I think he's going to strip for us on his webcam.

:)

161 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:06:18pm

davesax!!!!!

Read (or re-read) my #152 and take a farking hint!

162 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:07:30pm

evariste

Would you let me know how you find Yair?

I kind of miss his whining posts. *lol

163 ralph  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:07:57pm

#156 davesax

Who's being self-centered here?

Certainly not muslims. Ask the EU. Christians? Ask the christians in Bethlehem? or Iraq? or Egypt?

164 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:09:17pm

Kinda wish Hobgoblin was on this thread.

Since you posted you were sick, I've caught your bug off of my monitor!

You think that's bad - you should have seen the time Zulubaby uploaded a beer for me - when I tried downloading, it came through the wrong port, busted through the screen of my PalmPilot which I was hot-synching at the time, and spilled all over the frickin place.

;)

165 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:09:21pm

#157 quark2

A pox on you infidel!

Sympathy pains are really sweat of you. Do you have strep throat, by chance?

166 Juliette  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:11:05pm

#23 Hicks:

Also, Saruman is clearly Sheik Ahmed Yassin.

Yassin: "There will be no dawn for infidels."

167 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:13:32pm

cba-I wish! Check your mail.
andrew-thank you once more, kind fellow! :-)
*takes a small bow
#148 ralph -

And as far as the ADL's "ultraliberalism": Charles has posted more information about antisemitism than almost any non-Jewish blog on the net, and it has nothing to do with his being liberal or not. It has to do with him being an empathetic, top-notch human being.


No it has to do with finding Islam wanting. Quit being so self centered!

Uh huh. Yeah. Sure, buddy. You're trolling and have been for a while, apparently. "Why do these Jews think everything's about them?"
Is it beyond your capacity to imagine that Charles might have multiple areas of focus? It's either finding Islam wanting or it's nothing? I think that davesax is right about Charles, and the confirmation of that is the not-insignificant number of posts that Charles has devoted to non-Islam-specific manifestations of antisemitism here and in Europe. You seem to have an unhealthy obsession, hmmm? A bit Jew-baity, aren'tcha? Well, nice troll, fuckwad.

168 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:13:56pm

Frank IBC, LOL! I wish I could remember which thread that was.

169 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:14:21pm

@158 andrew

Well I thought my monitor was sterile!

I sound like an old bull frog when I try to talk, and the sneezing! It's RIP's fault..of course. :)

170 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:15:34pm

Er, who's got the pox?... Come on, who's got the pox ... come on... there you go.

Who's got a boil on the bum... boil on the botty.

Who's got the chest rash? Have to get a bigger bottle.

Who's got wind? Catch.

The BBC would like to apologize for the poor quality of the writing in that sketch. It is not BBC policy to get easy laughs with words like bum, knickers, botty or wee-wees. Ssssh!

These are the words that are not to be used again on this programme.

B*M

B*TTY

P*X

KN*CKERS

W**-W**

SEMPRINI

171 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:16:26pm

Frank IBC-I'm desperately trying to find those assless chaps even as we speak!
quark2-I searched Google groups for his first and last name. You can deduce his last name from one of the email addresses he used when he posted here.

172 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:16:53pm

CBA:

Geeze, what are you yelling about? I think it was a great post...I just didn't get to see it when I was typing. Sorry about that.

Ralph:

Relax. Noone's disagreeing with you about Islam. Especially me.

173 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:17:13pm

You guys miss Yair? Not me. Good riddance, one less ill-mannered twit to worry about.

174 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:17:53pm

Hi davesax, nice to see you here :-)

175 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:18:39pm

@164 Frank IBC

Well at least yours was alot more fun!

176 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:18:49pm

hi zulubaby. I guess I think of it as two Yairs, one of whom I miss.

177 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:19:24pm

#168 zulubaby

LOL!! I just tried to look up "beer" in the LGF search engine, figuring I would remember the thread...964 matches! What a bunch of lushes.

178 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:20:34pm

sorry, davesax. i'll stay lowercase for a while.
now i'm going to check my email like evariste told me to. then i have to fold the laundry i never did yesterday.
/whine

179 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:20:40pm

RIP Ford-that's pathetic! Out of over 9300 posts? That's only a little over one in ten!
We need to get some more drinkers, up in hurr.

180 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:23:57pm

@165 RIP Ford

Yeah, strep throat bad!

It all started during the night with no warning.

My husband is loving the peace.

181 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:25:41pm

#179 evariste

Actually, that was 964 Threads! LOL!

182 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:25:42pm

RIP Ford (#177)

I just tried to look up "beer" in the LGF search engine, figuring I would remember the thread...964 matches! What a bunch of lushes.

LOL. If another thread becomes a beer-fest I think I'll scream.

183 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:27:02pm

quark2 (#180)

My husband is loving the peace.

LOL!! You're so cute.

184 davesax  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:27:41pm

Hi zulu, good to be here.

Well, guys, I haven't posted in ages, and probably won't for awhile, but it's good to see that LGF is still the best.

Everiste and cba: good to meet you.

Quark2: good to see you again.

And Everiste: thanks for your defense. Ralph sounds like he needs to chill.

Night, all!

185 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:28:11pm

quark2-LOL!

186 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:29:51pm

#180 quark2

I caught it last wednesday-ish and am just now getting over it. Going out in Austin on Saturday and drinking idiotic did not help things either... I'm sorry to hear you got it by licking your computer screen and I'm sure the hubby looks at you funny when you do that. The coughing is really wretched, ain't it?

187 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:31:01pm

Here's the thread where Frank IBC (formerly IMC) was uploading drinks. He's so clever :-)

188 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:31:02pm

#184 davesax

Drop by any time. Just remeber to bring some beer next time.

189 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:31:58pm

evariste, check your email.

190 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:33:03pm

@183 zulubaby

awwwwwwwwwwww *croak* *LOL

@185 evariste

yeah it's aggravating can't even yell at my cats!

191 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:33:32pm

bye, davesax.
zulu, honey, trust you to track down the thread! LOL

192 SoCalJustice  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:36:21pm

Gibson and Globular Clusters. Where to begin...

With Gimli the dwarf, I guess. Pat Buchanan wrote a book about this topic (of course, Pat was interested in more than just militant Islam, but all other cultures):

The Death of the West: How Dying Populations and Immigrant Invasions Imperil Our Country and Civilization

For obvious reasons, these sentiments sound much better out of the mouth of a blockbuster trilogy dwarf, than Pat "I'm against affirmative action in admissions programs unless it's for White, ethnic Catholics at Ivy League universities" Buchanan.

Just throwing that out there.

193 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:38:37pm

cba, LOL. Of all the things to have a good memory for ...

194 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:40:33pm

@186 RIP Ford

Yeah but that's just the point! I didn't lick my monitor this time.... you know how we'uns lizoidminions love slurping up those errant bugs that are attracted to light.

Heck I didn't even drink anything other than hot tea. *sigh

195 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:44:49pm

Who allowed John Kerry onto my TV?

196 SoCalJustice  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:50:47pm

(#195) zulubaby

Who allowed John Kerry onto my TV?

Zionists, of course.

Who lets anyone on your TV?

They're that good. With modern lighting techniques, they have the ability to make him look extra French.

197 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 6:52:20pm

I'm watching Leno, and he's just ripped all of the wannabee dwarves a new one. *lol

198 Sergio  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:04:27pm

Yes!

Thank you Charles for posting this. I had no idea that Mortenson was a moonbat. That's too bad.

But the Jean Rhys-Davies quote is great. He gets it, completely. That is very, very rare in the light entertainment business these days. And he's eloquent. And his chops as a serious, world class actor have been on display for decades, so the left can't take that away from him (although they will now try, hard).

I hope other men (and women) within that industry possessed of some intestinal fortitude come out as he has.

199 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:05:54pm

SoCalJustice (#196)

LOL!! You just made my night.

200 evariste  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:06:53pm

Sergio-telling, isn't it, that you (and others) refer to it as "coming out". It speaks volumes of how intolerant lefties have stifled dissent in Hollywood. They are the real heirs of McCarthy-except, not the real McCarthy; rather, their own funhouse-mirror-distorted version of him.

201 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:07:48pm

#195 zulubaby

Who allowed John Kerry onto my TV?

That is what that little clicky-thingy is for. Or you can just shoot the T.V. What ever is easier. I usually go for the shotgun when the magnificent 9 appear.

#196 SoCalJustice

they have the ability to make him look extra French.

LOL!!

202 cba  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:13:24pm

#198 Sergio:

I had no idea that Mortenson was a moonbat. That's too bad.

It sure is too bad. So cute, 'n all. As is Johnny Depp. And Ben Afleck. And... oh, so sad.

203 Frank IBC  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:21:06pm

#187 Zulubaby -

Thanks for the mam, er, memories! What keywords did you use?

I think that's the second "Beer-port" thread - I think there was another a few months before that...

efore that.

Although I would have rather not have been reminded of Anatoly...what a horrible troll...

Quark's husband:

"Wow, you have a sore throat? For a while there, I thought I had gone deaf."

;)

Coming out...McCarthy

If McCarthy had come out, history would have been quite different, but that's another story for another day...

204 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:27:04pm

#203 Frank IBC

If you come back to this thread, why the nick change from IMC to IBC? Just curious...

205 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:29:23pm

RIP Ford (#201)

I must remember to get myself a shotgun. LOL.

I have the TV on but the sound turned down low and suddenly I became aware of a voice that was getting on my nerves and looked to see who it was. Yes, the lovely John Kerry.

206 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:31:58pm

Frank IBC (#203)

I think that's the second "Beer-port" thread - I think there was another a few months before that...

I thought so too. Anyway, I searched using "hotsync".

207 fiery celt  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:34:46pm

How Tolkien's Catholic Beliefs influenced the Lord of the Rings Trilogy.

'Baptized imagination'

That Tolkien's faith (he was a committed Roman Catholic) deeply influenced his writing is without question. The author himself said that The Lord of the Rings "is a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision." Many of the writers, actors, and other creative talent behind the films don't seem to accept or understand this worldview; yet it consistently made its way into the trilogy.
Whatever the personal convictions of the film's collaborators, not only will audiences find here virtues like valor, fealty, honor, and self-sacrifice, but also Tolkien's more explicitly Christian concepts of absolute truth, good and evil, and the sure hand of Providence.
On the other hand, John Rhys-Davies, who plays Gimli the dwarf, seemed to reveal a deeper understanding of at least some of Tolkien's themes. He related the Middle Earth myth to the rise of Islam in the modern world: "I think that Tolkien says that some generations will be challenged and if they do not rise to meet that challenge they will lose their civilization. That does have a real resonance with me.... What is unconscionable is that too many of your fellow journalists do not understand how precarious Western civilization is.... The abolition of slavery comes from Western democracy. True Democracy comes from our Greco-Judeo-Christian-Western experience. If we lose these things, then this is a catastrophe for the world.
"And if it just means replacement of one genetic stock with another genetic stock, I don't think that matters too much. But if it involves the replacement of Western civilization with different cultural values then it's something we really ought to discuss because ... I am for dead white male culture! If Tolkien's got a message, it's that sometimes you've got to stand up and fight for what you believe in."
One could argue that Tolkien's myth puts his ideas at a safe enough distance from real life as to be palatable to those who don't share his faith. The orderliness and hope found in his concept of providence, for instance, can prompt a sort of wistful admiration.
Tolkien's myth is a forceful answer to such yearning. C.S. Lewis, Tolkien's great friend and admirer, spoke of a "baptized imagination" as one important step in his journey toward Christianity, allowing him to begin to accept the potential for truth in the One Myth.
Tolkien, through his books and now through these films, has given the postmodern world a profoundly Christian vision. It's a powerful picture, even if that world doesn't always have the proper terms to describe it.

You can now return to your regularly scheduled Catholic bashing....

208 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:37:42pm

@203 Frank IBC

Not quark's husband, me me me! *lol

OT:

My husband was a member of the 4th Division when serving in Viet Nam. Boy is he proud! :)

209 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:44:03pm

Frank IBC,
zulubaby,

BEER PORT.

Entry # 64

I remember that thread pretty clearly, I wanted to get into the drinking games. Alas, I did not arrive in time.

210 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:46:38pm

#208 quark2

My husband was a member of the 4th Division when serving in Viet Nam. Boy is he proud! :)

He should be.
I was think of stopping by a bar in Killeen and buying some beers on my next trip to the ranch.

211 zulubaby  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:47:55pm

RIP Ford (#209)

On a thread titled 'Moronic Convergence', no less. Thanks for nothing! ;-)

212 ploome  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:51:49pm

207 fiery celt

who is bashing Catholics?

213 pk  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 7:59:34pm

Reality imitates the holodeck! In Voyager, he played Leonardo da Vinci, who inspired Janeway in her decisive battle for humanity against the Borg.

214 RIP Ford  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 8:06:31pm

#212 ploome

It started with: #41 Elizabeth

As a non-practicing Catholic, I would hardly call it bashing. I could see how some would be willing to see it that way with how the thread developed. Ralph proved himself to be an idiot in the process too...

215 quark2  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 8:21:15pm

@210 RIP Ford

Make that Shiner Bock. That'll go good.


night all!

216 ploome  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 8:30:05pm

:(

sometimes its good to remember .

'do not do unto others, that which is abhorrent to you'

217 aaron's rantblog  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 8:49:11pm

#102 Orange Juice wrote:

This is OT but how familiar are you guys with Frank Herbert's Dune series? Herbert was pretty good with predictions considering the whole series is pretty much about the destructive nature of Islam and it's fanatical followers. Those books are more relevant now than when they were published.

Spoiler: There are still Jews in the last of the series.

Re Gibson's The Passion, I'm Jewish, orthodox, and looking forward to seeing it to make my own evaluation, sans Vatican and sans ADL spins.

The best commentary on the issue is Dennis Prager's:

The Passion: Jews and Christians are watching different films

October 28, 2003

Early this past summer, Mel Gibson invited me to see "The Passion," his film on the trial and crucifixion of Jesus. The invitation was significant in that I was the first practicing Jew and active member of the American Jewish community to be invited. He did so because he believed, correctly, that he could trust me. I have long worked to build trust between Jews and Christians, especially traditional Christians.

The increasing tension over this film has reinforced impressions I offered Mel Gibson that day. When watching "The Passion," Jews and Christians are watching two entirely different films.

For two hours, Christians watch their Savior tortured and killed. For the same two hours, Jews watch Jews arrange the killing and torture of the Christians' Savior.

In order to avoid further tension between two wonderful communities that had been well on their way to historic amity, it is crucial for each to try to understand what film the other is watching and reacting to.

First, what Jews see. The Jews in the film (except, of course, for those who believe in Jesus) are cruel and often sadistic. One prominent Christian who saw the film along with my wife and me said that while watching the film he wanted to take a gun and shoot those who had brought such pain to Jesus. I couldn't blame him. The Jews in the film manipulate the Romans -- who are depicted as patsies of the Jews and in the case of Pilate, as morally far more elevated -- into torturing and murdering a beautiful man.

Why does this bother Jews so much? Because for nearly 2,000 years, attacked as "Christ-killers," countless Jewish men, women and children were tortured and murdered in ways that often caused more suffering than even Jesus endured (e.g., not only tortured and murdered themselves, but also seeing their families and friends raped, tortured and murdered). For Jews to worry that a major movie made by one of the world's superstars depicts Jews as having Christ tortured and killed might arouse anti-Semitic passions is not paranoid. Even though Islam denies the crucifixion, it is difficult to imagine that this film will not be a hit in the virulently anti-Semitic Arab world.

It is essential that Christians understand this. Every Jew, secular, religious, assimilated, left-wing, right-wing, fears being killed because he is Jewish. This is the best-kept secret about Jews, who are widely perceived as inordinately secure and powerful. But it is the only universally held sentiment among Jews. After the Holocaust and with Islamic terrorists seeking to murder Jews today, this, too, is not paranoid.

However, what Jews need to understand is that most American Christians watching this film do not see "the Jews" as the villains in the passion story historically, let alone today. First, most American Christians -- Catholic and Protestant -- believe that a sinning humanity killed Jesus, not "the Jews." Second, they know that Christ's entire purpose was to come to this world and to be killed for humanity's sins. To the Christian, God made it happen, not the Jews or the Romans (the Book of Acts says precisely that). Third, a Christian who hates Jews today for what he believes some Jews did 2,000 years ago only reflects on the low moral, intellectual and religious state of that Christian. Imagine what Jews would think of a Jew who hated Egyptians after watching "The Ten Commandments," and you get an idea of how most Christians would regard a Christian who hated Jews after watching "The Passion."

Jews also need to understand another aspect of "The Passion" controversy. Just as Jews are responding to centuries of Christian anti-Semitism (virtually all of it in Europe), many Christians are responding to decades of Christian-bashing -- films and art mocking Christian symbols, a war on virtually any public Christian expression (from the death of the Christmas party to the moral identification of fundamentalist Christians with fundamentalist Muslims). Moreover, many Jewish groups and media people now attacking "The Passion" have a history of irresponsibly labeling conservative Christians anti-Semitic.

I cannot say that I am happy this film was made. Nevertheless, if the vast majority of Christians and Jews of goodwill try hard to understand what film the other is watching, some good can yet result. The last thing Jews need is to create tension with their best friends. And the last thing Christians need is a renewal of Christian hatred toward Jesus' people.

My understanding is that Prager is trying to work with Gibson on having the above essay distributed when the movie is released.

218 fat.elvis  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 9:12:01pm

I can't believe no Indiana Jones quotes!!!!!!

"Bad dates, Indy, bad dates."

God bless Sallah! One of the finest screen Muslims ever--- I had no idea he was Gimli too (see I'm not too much of a dork about the movies, although I read all the books when I was 14.)

And God bless the scene where a tired and weary Indy plugs a pugnacious, sword-wielding moonbat with his S&W.

219 Marcus  Mon, Dec 15, 2003 11:36:13pm

Mr Rhys-Davies is a fine Welshman and I'm proud to call him countryman. I'm glad not all actors are barking moonbats.

220 Hertz  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 4:18:32am

#219 Marcus
I, on the other hand, am very unhappy and ashamed that Viggo Mortensen is a Dane like I am.

221 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:01:24am

RIP Ford -

I originally chose "IMC", for "In Mongtomery County (MD)", as I made my debut on LGF during the middle of the Beltway Sniper spree.

I became increasingly uncomfortable with "IMC"'s association with IdiotMedia, so I resolved to change it - but to what?

At first, I thought of Frank ICBM, but I was uncomfortable that people might infer that I had Freudian insecurities. Plus, the sound of "I See BM" had a most unfortunate giggle factor.

After some frustration, I finally found my new nick at the end of my arm - my very favorite soft drink in the whole world, IBC Root Beer.

Oh, and BTW, in case I didn't say it enough back in March - "Anatoly" is an utterly blithering idiot.

222 RIP Ford  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:18:02am

#221 Frank IBC

Thanks for the 411. Makes sense now.

223 evariste  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:40:24am

Yay! I always wondered where that came from.

224 Throbert McGee  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:46:39am

As for "historical accuracy"--I think it's fairer to say "faithful to the Gospel" [I don't remember which one it's based on].

On the issue of "historicial accuracy," none of the discussions that I've seen about Gibson's movie have picked up on the fact that, like the countless traditional "Passion plays" that came before it, The Passion seems totally unaware of the obvious time-compression in the Gospel narrative.

The scriptural accounts of Jesus's trial and execution create the impression that within the space of 24 hours, he was: arrested, made to stand before Roman and Jewish authorities, sentenced to crucifixion, nailed up, and confirmed dead! As has been pointed out by many critical scholars, however, to take this chronology as historic is to unintentionally slander both the Jewish and Roman legal systems, neither of which were known for kangaroo courts.

I will be interested to see whether The Passion indeed sticks to the traditional "compressed" chronology, or attempts to unfold the events of Jesus' execution at a more realistic pace.

225 Papijoe  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:49:11am

I heard some quotes on Chuck Colson's radio show this morning from the press conference that the National Catholic Register printed. Thinking I had a big scoop, came into work and googled furiously to find some choice quotes to send to Charles. I could have saved myself hours of toil if I check LGF first. In light of some of the religious discussions on this thread, I think it's interesting to note that after looking all over the web, only religious affiliated media printed Rhys-Davies comment's. People of faith and conviction (and this doesn't exclude agnostics and atheists) need to cut each other some slack over their differences, because we are in a position to tell the truth, even when it makes us a lighting rod for the PC LLL culture we live in. And guess who wins when we squabble?

/preaching off

226 Lurey  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 5:56:32am

Could someone clear up exactly what he is talking about here? Jeseus? Founding Fathers? I am just curious..

because, [hang it all], I am for dead-white-male culture!”
227 insanepotato(formerly vinmachine)  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:05:41am

Arrrgh!! (Smash! Crash! Bang! Shatter! Rend! R-I-I-I-P-P-P!!)
sounds of me destroying my Viggio framed poster:

I especially liked that line about dwarf tossing - I knew I liked that Dwarf!

Hats off to you sir!

228 Papijoe  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:15:46am

226 Lurey

I read that as more traditional views of Western culture vs. the lefty /www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0060528370/qid=10 71590902/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-9287973-8873721" target="_blank"revisionst/a" target="_blank">revisionist version
Rhys-Davies made a comment in one of the interviews I read that after doing a Discovery series as a narrator on archeology, he came up with some not so PC views on the Aztecs and their culture of sacrefice. Refreshingly honest.

229 datarat  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:29:40am

My respect for John Rhys-Davies, already great, has gone up even more. I appreciate it when a man can use fact and figures to make his point.

I keep thinking of that scene with Strider and King Theoden:

Theoden: So much death. What can men do against such reckless hate?
Aragorn: Ride out with me. Ride out and meet them.
Theoden: For death and glory?
Aragorn: For Rohan. For your people.

I keep picturing that on the edge of the smoking hole where the WTC used to be, and I wonder if Viggo Mortenson sees the irony in his work and his life...

230 DR  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:34:45am

The ring represents evil. Not evil in the sense of some idealogical concept, but the tangible evil that exists in everyone. An evil that is very intoxicating and powerful and that everyone must contend with in their lives.

Tolkien believed that everyone possesses a degree of darkness in their hearts and life is about the choosing the path of light, even if it means your entire life will be an epic struggle without reward. Fighting for what is right because it is right not because there will be some great payoff in the end.

This theme has great significance today. Those who would see us destroyed have chosen to embrace evil because to them it seems easier to give in to rage and insanity than to take personal responsiblity for their situation and to change it.

231 Lewis  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:41:14am

#226 Lurey 12/16/2003 07:56AM PST

Could someone clear up exactly what he is talking about here? Jeseus? Founding Fathers? I am just curious..

I would imagine he's envisioning guys like Plato, Socrates, Aristotle, and David Hume, John Locke, and Jean-Jacques Rousseau, and, yes, maybe Thomas Jefferson, but possibly Edmund Burke.

Or something.

232 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:53:24am

Throbert -

Actually, the time frame for The Passion may be as long as six months - there is strong evidence that Jesus entry into Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday" was during Sukkot (shortly Rosh Hashana and Yom Kippur) rather than right before Passover.

233 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 6:55:12am

Charles:

In tribute to Mr. Rhys-Davies, we may have to retire one of our favorite "rotation titles":

Don't Crush That Dwarf - Hand Me The Pliers

Or at least delete the second half of the line..

234 Austin, TX  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 8:46:53am

9 Josh 12/15/2003 04:02PM PST

I suppose the ring represents nuclear weapons, but it's hard to say.

Tolkien denied the ring was about nuclear weapons.

I've heard the ring represents sin, and it's alluring and corrupting power. Remember, he was a devout catholic.

235 Austin, TX  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 8:59:11am

#13 Abu McKinney 12/15/2003 04:05PM PST

Interesting. Before LOTR, Rhys-Davis was probably most well known for playing Sallah (a Muslim, I believe) in the Indiana Jones movies!

His character in the movie was Egyptian, but an anglophile, even singing old english ballads.

236 Austin, TX  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 9:12:13am

41 Elizabeth 12/15/2003 04:44PM PST

Another entertainer with courage is Lauren Holly who was performing at a Christmas concert at the Vatican in front of all the grand poobahs of the Church minus His Holiness.

No, it was Lauren Hill. And though she may or may not have had a good point to make, she made an ass out of herself by disrespecting her hosts.

237 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 10:18:30am

#232 Frank IBC:

there is strong evidence that Jesus entry into Jerusalem on "Palm Sunday" was during Sukkot

Yup. I remember reading that in Revolution in Judea by Hayim Jaccobi (sp?) many years ago and thought it made a lot of sense. I think of the book every year when I'm marching around shul with a lulav and etrog doing the Hoshanot. (The palm branch waving and shouting Hoshana is what seals it for me!)

#236 Austin, TX: A large percentage of the posts between the one you quote and this one were devoted to that topic. Pleeeeeez let's not start it all over again! Thanks, buddy.

238 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 10:29:28am

Cba -

I have "The Mythmaker" as well as "Revolution in Judea". I read "The Mythmaker" at the same I read "The First Christian" by N? Powell Davies. My faith has never been the same since.

I've also read Maccoby's "The Sacred Executioner". He has some interesting theories about the earliest patriarchs.

Can you tell me what "Hoshana" means, literally, in Hebrew?

239 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 10:37:22am

#238 Frank IBC:
"Hosha-na" means "please help us."

My faith has never been the same since.

In what way? (Only if you're comfortable, I don't want to pry.)

240 Steve Janke  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 10:41:16am

Re: Viggo vs John (Actors in general)

I understand that as people, actors have the right to voice opinions, but sometimes I wish actors like Viggo (and Robbins and Sarandon and so on) would consider the following: they're actors! They memorize words written by other people, then repeat them on command. There. That's it. That's their job. Period. The formal educational requirements for their "profession" ended at about grade 3 when they mastered the skill of reading. Everything after that was a waste of time. Name any other job that routinely hires children. Child doctors? Child engineers? But child actors by the barrelful. Why? Because a child has all the skills required to do the job.

What's the point? Actors should remember that their profession (I hate using that word for what they do) does not requires 20+ years of rigourous intellectual study the way medicine or engineering or law requires. As such, unless they pursue such intellectual rigour on their own (as it appears that Rhys-Davies has), they are essentially pretty-looking mush-heads. They run the not inconsiderable risk of looking foolish everytime they open their mouths to say something, anything, that has not been written for them to say. This is simply because they lack the intellectual capacity to form meaningful opinions on complex issues. No fault of their own, of course. Their work simply does not require that level of brainpower. It's no surprise that actors are, by and large, leftists, and silly-sounding ones at that. Of course they are, because the left today is dominated by a touchy-feeley, anything goes, nothing is wrong if it feels good world-view that requires no defense of your opinion or position. It's only those nasty conservative types that insist on the application of reason and intellectual rigour and logically defensible arguments and real-world experience to ideas and positions in order to weed out the bad ones, even if it means hurting someone's feelings. And since acting is all about feelings (and not about intellect and fact), actors find a natural home there.

Now for some nasty emails from actors...bring 'em on!

241 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 11:35:38am

#239 cba -

Don't worry, it actually wasn't that painful an experience. I just went from being an orthodox (if not always church-going) Catholic to an "Arian Catholic" in barely a week.

"Hosha-na" means "please help us."

That's actually kind of funny, in a way. The Christian usage of the word seems to have little to do with the Hebrew meaning. In the Christian context, it means "praise G-d", "glory to G-d", or similar to "Haleluyah". Christians say "Hosanna in the Highest" - that clearly wouldn't make sense with the original meaning.

242 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 11:41:02am

Also, can you tell me what "Sabaoth" means? (That's the Latin spelling of the Hebrew word; I don't know how close it comes to the original. I'm asking because it's in the Latin version of the "Hosanna" prayer.

Another argument of Maccoby's which I find fascinating, is that Jesus may have been a Pharisee himself, and that the dispute was between factions of the Pharisees.

243 grendel  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:00:40pm

#31 Josh

re Sliders

There was a great episode where Rhys-Davies describes how fragile western democracy is. In the alternate world (nazi-esque america) he highlights that there have been thousands of years of human developments, but only One constitution.

244 Austin, TX  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:20:41pm

226 Lurey 12/16/2003 07:56AM PST

Could someone clear up exactly what he is talking about here? Jeseus? Founding Fathers? I am just curious..

He means Western culture. The multi-cultis often refer to it as just about "dead white guys." So Rhys-Davies is borrowing their phrase.

245 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:31:55pm

Arriving late... how did this thread move from the wise and wonderful John Rhys-Davies to (yawn) Mel Gibson's film?

To save arguments, when the film comes out, let's all go on that holiday to Micronesia instead.

(Where's the Micronesia thread, oh zulubaby our Mighty Threadfinder?)

246 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:33:51pm

#242 Frank:
Sorry for the delay. Sabaoth? Not a clue, sorry.

'Na' is actually a strong version of 'please'--I took the translation from my prayer book. I would have translated it more as 'we beseech you' or something along those lines, particularly in that context.

247 zulubaby  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:48:10pm

RC neo-Jew (#245)

(Where's the Micronesia thread, oh zulubaby our Mighty Threadfinder?)

Over here.

248 zulubaby  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 12:49:00pm

I did a search for "skiing naked". LOL.

249 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 1:01:07pm

zulubaby, you're incredible.

OK, so I'm not telling anyone anything they don't already know, but still, I had to say it.

250 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:09:12pm

#248 zulubaby

I did a search for "skiing naked". LOL.

LOL! I would never have thought of that! Who, me?:-)

By the way, you do have the name zulubaby in your passport, don't you? And I'm sure the name Mr Pol is in his passport, also. My passport has RC neo-Jew, with a photo of a lizard, and chocolate crumbs between the pages. I don't know how we're going to carry the passports when we're in Micronesia (no pockets).

251 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:11:08pm

And here I am, being distracted from the admirable John Rhys Davies by Micronesia.

Shall we invite him to come with us?

252 zulubaby  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:23:21pm

RC neo-Jew (#250)

I don't know how we're going to carry the passports when we're in Micronesia (no pockets).

LOL, I didn't think of that. Yes, of course it says zulubaby on my passport!

And here I am, being distracted from the admirable John Rhys Davies by Micronesia.

Shall we invite him to come with us?

Dunno. We'll have to find out what his thoughts are on being naked.

cba (#249)

Aah, thanks for saying that :-)

253 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:38:45pm

Micronesia

Funny coincidence - my organization just hosted a bunch of people from there, last week. Saipan, Commonwealth of the Northern Marianas, to be specific.

Klosters

Er, Globular Klosters, by any chance?

254 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:51:11pm

cba -

Try this one - tseba'oth ?

255 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:52:15pm

#253 Frank IBC

So, what were your Micronesian visitors wearing? zulubaby and I are keenly interested in Micronesian fashions - even though we might not be wearing them.

Globular Klosters? Globular Klosters? There are no Globular Klosters I tell you!

256 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:55:24pm

On the other hand, this is a scene from Klosters.

257 piglet  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 2:55:56pm

I hate to cut Gibson any slack, but does this mean that
in "Jesus Christ Superstar" the scene where the sellers
in the temple are selling "dancing girls" and WW2 hand grenades is not an accurate reflection of scripture?
What about the school bus full of hippies and the tank that chases simon?

"Come on in cause the price is down, come on in for the best in town, take your pick of the finest one."

" A ...temple should be a house of prayer, but you have made it a den of thieves."

258 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:06:02pm

#254 Frank IBC:
That one I can do! It's part of Hashem Tzva'ot, which is usually translated as Lord of Hosts.

In modern Hebrew, Tzava (the singular) means Army.

BTW, Hebrew has no 'th' sound (or 'j'). The letter taf is frequently "translated" as 'th'.

Many plurals--mostly, but not always, feminine nouns--are formed with 'ot' (vav, taf) on the end: rehov (street), rehovot (streets); shabbat (sabbath), shabbatot (sabbaths). Any biblical word that's entered English with 'th' was a taf in the original Hebrew. (Ruth, for example.)

TMI, sorry!

259 RC neo-Jew  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:10:28pm

Well, I'd much prefer to watch this sensible man
in this wonderful film than anything else.

/Trying to keep on topic and also prevent outbreak of civil war over this fellow's film.

260 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:16:40pm
261 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:21:56pm

cba -

Yes, it's "Lord G-d of Hosts" in the Catholic prayer, which goes:

Holy, Holy, Holy, Lord G-d of Hosts,
Heaven and Earth are full of Your Glory,
Hosanna in the highest.

In more recent versions, "of Hosts" is replaced by "Almighty".

Is this in any way like the Sukkot prayer? Is there any mention of "Elyon" in the context of "Hoshana"?

262 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:46:53pm

Frank-

The first two lines are from Isaiah Chap 6 verse 3:

Kadosh, kadosh, kadosh, Hashem tzvaot
M'lo kol ha-aretz k'vodo

k'vodo means his glory, not your, but that's clearly what it's based on. Those lines are included in the kedusha, which is part of the amidah (a prayer that's said every day).

The reason I could cite chapter and verse (tee, hee!) is that it's also the haftorah (reading from the Prophets) for parshat Yitro (Jethro--aha! a two-fer in reference to my #258) [PDM would pronounce it "Yisro"--long story]. That was my older daughter's bat mitzvah parsha, so I'm very familiar with it.

BTW, the haftora ends with verses 5 and 6 of Chapter 9. The King James version differs rather significantly from the translation I have for part of that:

"And his name is called Wonderful in counsel is God the Mighty, the Everlasting Father, the Ruler of peace." [Soncino chumash]

263 cba  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 3:50:04pm

Oops, missed the rest of your question.

In relation to the hakafot for Sukkot, nothing springs to mind (and I'm too lazy to go back to the prayer book and look through each hakafa).

Elyon is usually part of the phrase 'El elyon'--that could be translated "Supreme God" (El is another of the many words that mean "God").

264 Frank IBC  Tue, Dec 16, 2003 4:47:05pm

Cba -

I've seen "El Elyon" translated as "God in the Highest", so that's why I was wondering if it was mentioned with "Hoshana". I thought "Hosanna in the Highest" might have been "Hoshana Elyon".

Re "Yisro" - yes, I'm familiar with the differences between Sephardic and Ashkhenazi pronunciation.

The final verse of Isaiah you quote, is read on Christmas, and is sung in Handel's "Messiah".

I'm assuming "Chumash" has nothing to do with "Chemosh"?

Bible scholar Richard Elliot Friedman argues that the king described in Isaiah was not a future king, but rather King Hezekiah, who may have been contemporaneous with Isaiah.

Thanks for all the info!

265 cba  Wed, Dec 17, 2003 3:21:31am

#264
Yeah, in the last year of my high school choir career our final concert consisted of excerpts from the Messiah. My music teacher (whom I adored), said, "But most of it's from the Old Testament." It's great music, and I sang anyway!

I don't recognize Chemosh. Chumash is from the Hebrew word for five (khamesh). It contains the Torah (Five Books of Moses) divided up into the weekly parshayot, each one followed by the appropriate haftorah (or haftarot, if there are differences between the Ashkenazi and Sephardi selections for the week, as there sometimes are).

Richard Elliot Friedman ain't the only one! It's pretty clear in the Hebrew that he's talking about a current event, not a future one.

I think this thread is about done, so I won't be coming back to it--see you on another one!

266 david  Fri, Dec 19, 2003 10:21:11am

#79 quark2
"The fact that you would come on a website that is
totally against stoning anyone and recommend it"

I recommend getting stoned, it's the only way to listen to Zeppelin IMHO.

Shalom..
David

267 Josh (Yet another; different from the other 2)  Sat, Dec 20, 2003 10:06:15pm

Great thoughts; I would have loved to see the political discussions Viggo and Rhys-Davies would have had.

268 dallasmc  Sun, Dec 21, 2003 2:34:23pm

In response to the idea that "the ring" was meant to stand for something in Tolkiens life, It seems like I read somewhere that it was meant to either represent the machine gun or chemical weapons, as tolkien was a WWI verteran and saw combat in the trenches....I think. I could be wrong....

269 Jim  Sun, Dec 21, 2003 8:54:38pm

Maybe instead of pursuing the real threat in Mordor, Aragorn Should have lied to his people that a large cash of weapons was held by the wild men (Ghan) and that they(the wild men) were responsible for the siege of Minas Tirith. Gondor should have attacked them instead. Im sure the book and movie still would have ended in the same way. And who knows
Aragorns cronies might have received unbid-for contracts. If the wild men had any oil.

270 sparkle  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 6:30:11am

Having read the discussions being carried out, I looked for some evidence of research into Islam...and found none. When comments are made about radicals, fundamentalism, extremism, well any 'extreme'- it is not in conforming with faith...not conforming to the will of GOD... it is quite simply men who have sadistic, manipulative and aggressive natures who wish to dominate and destroy. Islam, Catholicism, Christianity etc. all have leaders who have become self serving, hungry for recognition, fame, power and wealth... vices men easily become caught up in and obsessed by (Gollum springs to mind).

Tolkien, I feel, exercised many of his horrors experienced during the first world war. A very, intensely- personal journey. TLOTR is a tremendous piece of Literature which should not be sullied with actors or 'consumers' interpretations. Muslims sit alongside Jews and Christians and Aethiests in cinemas around the world... and as far as I know (though hey, maybe some radical may prove me wrong) no blood has been shed!

Being white does not make for supremacy, being 'western' certainly does not give people a platform of superiority from which to launch diatribe. Acting according to the Law and word of GOD does give people an edge of superiority. And, what is more, is that in so doing, those people are not spending wasted hours seeking to manipulate, abuse or suppress other people...they are simply seeking the favour of GOD.

Any person who has become obsessed with needing to stamp out a particular group/colour/culture/ or minority has really become most corrupt and self serving. Any person feeling threatened by the possibility of a minority group becoming the majority should really ask themselves what it is that they fear the most? In the case of Islam (true Islam not the corrupt societies who hang the banner 'Islam' on their practices) all men and women are free to either believe or not believe- and those who do not believe are told (and therefore it is a message also to the believers) that they may enjoy the life of the world awhile, riches, wealth and fame...for the punishment will come in the hereafter- you know AFTER DEATH has naturally/fatefully happened.

It is not the business of muslims to seek out to destroy non believers. It is the business of muslims to kill those who threaten the very existence of muslim people. Imagine... in Australia/America etc. a burglar can- in law, be killed by the homeowner...it really is not so very different, Oh! and for those of you who think Islam is barbaric...a muslim cannot kill someone for attemting to steal from them...they just chop of the offending hands! :-)

Anyway, Tolkien, I doubt, had any issue with the Muslims, Jews are a persecuted people, as are Muslims or in fact any person nowadays who wishes to practice belief in God, or peace itself.

I don't know what your perspective is, but to me anyone who does not strive for a better quality of life for all, and cannot accept nor support those who do, has more of an alliance with the devil than with GOD!

271 flameboy  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 6:51:20am

It doen't seem like there is much structured debate here. Just a lot of people bigging each other up for thinking the same way. Muslims don't hate you. Get out more often and stop watching so many movies. Or am I being 'idiotarian'? Name calling and cheap shots at beliefs that have existed for thousands of years does no one any good. Rhys Davies makes a good point. But Muslims are threatening our way of life no more than we are threatening theirs. And Sharia Law is no more barbaric than the numerous ingenious death sentences the US employs. Show a little tolerance. It's christmas. An eye for and eye and all that...

272 Geepers  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 7:01:04am

sparkle (#270),

Being white does not make for supremacy, being 'western' certainly does not give people a platform of superiority from which to launch diatribe.

Does being white and "western" preclude us from being right?

273 Geepers  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 7:20:47am

flameboy (#272),

It doen't seem like there is much structured debate here.

And who told you this was a site of "structured debate"?

Just a lot of people bigging each other up for thinking the same way.

How long have you been reading LGF?

Muslims don't hate you.

And you know this how? Take a bible to Saudi Arabia and feel the love.

Get out more often and stop watching so many movies.

I've been to exactly one movie in the last six years. What's your point?

Name calling and cheap shots at beliefs that have existed for thousands of years does no one any good.

So your cool with slavery, right?

But Muslims are threatening our way of life no more than we are threatening theirs.

Riiight. I see Christian radicals forever bombing mosques and murdering muslim woman and children.

And Sharia Law is no more barbaric than the numerous ingenious death sentences the US employs.

You're right on that one. I love nothing more than going down to the soccer stadium to watch while the thieves get their hands cut off and the adulterers get stoned to death.

Show a little tolerance.

Nah, Sorry but I just won't tolerate suicide murderers screaming "allah akbar" in an attempt to get 72 virgins for killing infidels.

Or am I being 'idiotarian'?

Yes.

274 Jim  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 12:21:12pm

Geepers

So your cool with slavery, right?

Sorry, that was white western southern christians Who thought (and may still think )slavery was ok

275 a normal guy  Mon, Dec 22, 2003 11:51:43pm

I accidently came across this site, but I don't believe my eyes: although there are some people with a real opinion, the majority is talking about something they don't know anything about

How is it possible that men responsible for the 'termination' of a whole (peacefull) culture (in the name of God!! Sounds like Extremism to me!!) and slavery for decades now can claim the right to demolish a culture based on the same (assumed) reasons. And all the bullshit about the meaning of the movie...It was a fellowship of "races" that fought evil.....

I do not agree with extremism (in every form) and I do like my western culture, but I don't have to destroy all the others to be able to enjoy it...

276 dan  Thu, Dec 25, 2003 8:54:18pm

reading this interview it seems that there is a lot of angst amongst the actors in the movie about it appearing to be a big war propaganda film with the american zionist psychopaths/ oil warriors being the good guys and the terrorists/arab children being the bad guys

the irony is that they took out all the implicit raciscm from the origional text and (half orc - humans) and left all the overt shit , the enemy in the east, the evil 'haradrim' (note the HEBREWISTIC 'IM' NOT ARABISTIC HARADDIN) of tolkeins bizarre mish mash of semitic languages and finno ugritic languages.

they take their political force from the 'lost tribe of israel' rediscovered in these latter days on the east coast of the usa with remarkable proximity to wall street.

this angst is misplaced in a way people who funded the movie did want a zionist-oil baron-arms dealer -republican party CRUSADE propaganda piece to urge dopey americans to war not realising the depth of JRRT's scholarship

the "Elvish" of tolkein takes inspiration from not hebrew but akkadian , the language of ancient assyria and makes a point about the brother hood of all men
and does not suggest a master race or even a chosen people.

the stuff about monarchy and prophecy seems flatulent and like simpering flattery in the mouth of an oxford don but like a lot of ideas of tolkeins time it is quaint and passe

Viigo mortensen is welcome to his views and i applaud his attempts to break free and not be either typecast or be hijacked to serve some shoddy political con job

'a noble spirit embiggens the smallest man'

277 Baldy  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 2:45:57am

#275 normal guy-
Moderation in the protection of liberty is no virtue; extremism in the defense of freedom is no vice.
-- Senator Barry Goldwater. 1909-1998

278 Baldy  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 2:48:30am

#271 flameboy - Oh Marie!

279 Baldy  Sat, Dec 27, 2003 2:57:37am

#270 sparkle - I don't care what "true Islam" is. Sounds similar to those who support "true Communism", and say that it's never been truly practiced. Islam may be peaceful, but Muslims aren't. Oh I forgot. They are not "true Muslims"...


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