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Did Hitlerism Die with Hitler?

Tue, Jan 27, 2004 at 8:58:02 pm PST

Here’s a powerful essay/book review by Omer Bartov on the unpublished sequel to Mein Kampf, that asks the question: Did Hitlerism die with Hitler? (Again, thanks to all who emailed about this.)

Must we read another ranting book by Hitler? This book is certainly as close to the heart of darkness as a book can be. But it should have been read in its time, and it should be read now. It was an explicit warning to the world of what could be expected from the Führer of what was to become for twelve terrible years the Third Reich. When Hitler wrote it, no one could tell whether his plans and fantasies would ever be transformed into reality. Much of what Hitler put together in this book could already be found in Mein Kampf, if anyone had bothered to read it, and other ideas were expressed unambiguously in his speeches. Yet it was difficult to believe that anyone in his right mind would try to translate such rhetoric into policy. It was generally thought that in power Hitler would be constrained by the realities of diplomacy, the limits of Germany’s power, the national interests of the Reich, and the military, economic, and political partners with whom he had to make policy. 

Today we know that this was a fatal misunderstanding, rooted more in wishful thinking than in the kind of realism on which contemporary observers prided themselves and expected would eventually keep Hitler, too, in his place. Today we know that Hitler said precisely what he meant to say. We can also note, with the benefit of hindsight, that Hitler was neither insane, nor irrational, nor a fool. Several decades ago A.J.P. Taylor wrote that Hitler may have been mad or criminal as far as his plans and policies for world conquest and genocide were concerned, but in the conduct of his diplomacy in the 1930s he acted very much like everyone else, seizing opportunities and moving gradually toward the goals he had set himself. Reading this second book, I tend to agree. Hitler’s rhetoric here is not more empty-headed than that of many of his contemporaries; his use of clichés hardly exceeds what one encountered in the newspapers; his knowledge of history, his psychological observations, his criticism of his rivals, are in many respects typical of his place and time. 

But of course Hitler was about much more than this. He was also a pathological mass murderer who caused the death of millions and the destruction of Europe, and so it is important to know that he did precisely what he promised to do. For we still do not seem to have learned a simple crucial lesson that Hitler taught us more definitively than anyone else in history: some people, some regimes, some ideologies, some political programs, and, yes, some religious groups, must be taken at their word. Some people mean what they say, and say what they will do, and do what they said.

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194 comments

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1 Let's Roll  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:03:45pm

Wow. That's frightening. The problem is, we already know that the world is ready to let this happen again. It's already begun, and it's being ignored (or even enabled) worldwide.

2 Buster Bunny (DIY WMD)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:04:54pm

sure he was a mad dictator, but i'm sure his mother loved him.

/snicker snicker

3 rusta  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:06:04pm

Any parallels bewteen Hitler and Islamofacsits?
After all they have told us exactly what they are striving for....

4 Leah  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:07:05pm

.People say what they mean..and mean what they say.. Been saying this for years..So LISTEN UP people..the Islamic World is talking. What can I say?

5 mbruce  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:16:44pm

Begging to be nuked they are(channeling yoda)

6 ibrodsky  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:18:27pm

Better yet: read Churchill's multi-volume history of WW II.

Learn how decent people fail to stand up to Evil when there's a chance of stopping it before it gets going.

Learn how decent people don't really fight until it's almost too late.

Learn how real leaders who clearly see what's happening are demonized and accused of being extremists and fearmongerers.

Learn how the appeasers dropped the whole mess in Churchill's lap and cried "If you are so smart, you fix it!"

7 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:30:42pm
But of course Hitler was about much more than this. He was also a pathological mass murderer who caused the death of millions and the destruction of Europe, and so it is important to know that he did precisely what he promised to do.

Where I originally read this read this essay, it was subtitled, He Meant What He Said, and he did.

8 cubanbob  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:35:03pm

If there is one lesson Jews have learned or should learn from the Holocaust (Tikkun are you listening?) is as someone posted posted on the net ( I might have read it here in LGF-some one quoting a Holocaust survivor) is that " When a man with a gun tells you he is going to kill you, believe him!"

Considering the acts of genocide that have occured since 1945-Hey John Kerry and Jane Fonda Cambodia ring a bell?-what makes any sane person believe that a new Hitler or Hitlerism is out of the question?

9 ibrodsky  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:36:29pm

Islamism = 21st century Nazism

10 mexrep  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:36:37pm

Islam is a religion of peace...

/channeling Neville Chamberlain

11 Let's Roll  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:39:06pm
12 QueenEsther  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:42:10pm

Haven't we lost enough trees to Sh*tler's rantings?

13 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:43:08pm

I've said it before, I'll say it again. The Left and genocide go hand in hand. Pol Pot. Idi Amin. Stalin. Hitler. Hussein. All monsters and heroes to the Left.

14 larry  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:45:22pm

For whatever reason, hatred seems to really cause a person to focus their energy. People who enter into divorce, nations at war, Islamists....in many instances the principle seems to be identical. Would that another hero would arise from the sea of humanity. Another 25 years on the path we're on now and an islamic cleric will be running for president, killing all who oppose him. Kinda like Iran.

15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:46:54pm

#8 Cubanbob

" When a man with a gun tells you he is going to kill you, believe him!"

Now a leftist will tell you that you need to ask yourself why he thinks he needs the gun, what makes him want to use it, and why he wants to kill you. Then he'll tell you its probably your fault, whatever the anwsers, based on the socio-economic upbringing of the assailant and blah blah blah blah.

Personally, I couldn't agree with you more.

16 FH  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:48:50pm

The lesson of the day: believe those who say they plan on killing you. And pre-empt them before they do. Too bad the left is smoking pot and reading Marx instead of paying attention to the lesson.

17 soy_yanqui  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 7:55:39pm

Is Mein Kampf available in Arabic? I'm sure that would be quite the bestseller in Beirut or Cairo, followed closely by the French book that makes the argument the US Governemnt carried out the 9/11 attacks. Depending on who you talk to, the Holocaust never happened or Adolf didn't do the job right....

18 ORD neighbor  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:00:08pm

To answer the title of this thread:
It was born before him under other names, and it did not die with him, but changed anmes again. I both hope and fear it is up to some of us to make it really dead for the first and last time.

19 rabbiyoni  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:10:24pm

#17
In arabic, chinese, malaysian, french, korean...

20 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:12:29pm

soy_yanqui (#17)

Is Mein Kampf available in Arabic? I'm sure that would be quite the bestseller in Beirut or Cairo ...

Mein Kampf is a best-seller in the Arab world, as is Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

21 cubanbob  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:20:42pm

5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir) 1/27/2004 09:46PM PST

unfortunately your exageration is not that that far from reality. While I personally did not know them (being too young) I have had relatives who have died in the Holocaust and who have Perished in the Gulag ( In Lenin's time-Stalin wasn't the only guilty one) as well as having property stolen by the communist twice, let me paraphrase George C.Wallace Governor of Alabama "There ain't a dimes worth of difference between a communist and a nazi"

Adolph himself stated that he was a socialist.

OT: I had a late aunt who had a niece killed by the PLO-in 1966. Which occupation was Arafat fighting then?

22 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:23:00pm

The Real Nazis

Still, it's worth noting that the former mufti of Jerusalem, Haj Amin al-Husseini, once explained matter-of-factly that there is "a definite similarity between the principles of Islam and the principles of Nazism."

A couple years ago, Arieh Stav, director of the Ariel Center for Policy Research in Tel Aviv, published a book called Peace: The Arabian Caricature: A Study of Anti-Semitic Imagery, which documented in excruciating and endless detail the extent to which much of the thinking in the Arab world is heavily influenced by Nazism. The concepts of "kampf" and "jihad" have been linked by many Arab ideologues. Anwar Sadat wrote a letter lavishing Hitler with praise. David Duke is writing op-eds for Arab papers. Whether from Saudi television or Egyptian newspapers or the mouths of Syrian leaders, praise and admiration for Hitler and Nazism can be found with little to no effort.

23 A. van Hilten  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:23:14pm

Seventy five years ago a baby girl was born in Fanrkfurt am Main. Her name was Anne Frank.

24 ajay  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:25:12pm

OT:
Renovating the House of Saud
[Link: www.worldpress.org...]

25 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:27:22pm

Wake Up and Smell the Anti-Semitism

"Mein Kampf," previously banned by Israel, has been allowed by the PA and was sixth on the Palestinian best-seller list. A senior commander in Arafat's personal bodyguard is Fawzi Salem al-Mahdi (known as "Abu Hitler"), whose two sons bear the first names Hitler and Eichmann.
26 blogaddict  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:27:49pm

I read this essay in its original form in The New Republic. I thought the essay quite powerful and hard-hitting, but I noticed a curious difference between that article and the one linked to here.

In the original, I was surprised to find that the author had voiced a strong criticism of the Israeli settlement policy. I am even more surprised to find that this sentence has been edited out of the Jewish World Review version linked here.

In the original article [Link: www.tnr.com...] in the next-to-last sentence of the third paragraph of Part III of the piece, Bartov writes, "The policies of the current Israeli government in the territories are indeed contrary to the strategic and moral interests of the Jewish state."

It just so happens that I personally agree that the settlements are contrary to the interests of the Jewish state, but I was puzzled as to why Bartov would have inserted that thought into the article at that juncture, as though it were an obvious, foregone conclusion rather than a matter to be debated. It also seemed extraneous to the point he was making. It really stuck out like a sore thumb for me.

I wonder who removed it in the present version? Bartov? The Jewish World Review editors? Or was it originally inserted by The New Republic editors and Bartov took it out in this version? As far as I can tell, it's the only change that has been made in the article. I just find it very strange.

Here's the whole paragraph in the original, for those who are interested in seeing it in context:

"But all is not well, not by a long shot. Criticism of Israeli policies against the Palestinians has long been attached to anti-Americanism, and the United States was said already by the Nazis in World War II to be dominated by the Jews. And criticism of American imperialism is often associated with its support for Israel, allegedly a colonial outpost populated by Jews in the heart of Arab and Islamic civilization. Of course, one should never confuse the legitimate criticism of Israeli policies with what all reasonable people agree is the despicable ideology of anti-Semitism. The policies of the current Israeli government in the territories are indeed contrary to the strategic and moral interests of the Jewish state. So there is every reason in the world to reject attempts to justify objectionable Israeli policies by reference to the Holocaust."

27 A. van Hilten  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:38:40pm

Don't know if anyone has already pointed this out, but these morons really ought to get a one way ticket to Auschwitz: Are Parallels To Nazi Germany Crazy?

To make a comparison between Germany in the 1930s and America now, I relied on a Web site called "A Teacher's Guide to the Holocaust." The passages in quotations below are taken from the site.

"With Adolf Hitler's ascendancy to the chancellorship, the Nazi Party quickly consolidated its power. Hitler managed to maintain a posture of legality throughout the Nazification process."

Whether by chance or design, George W. Bush is the most powerful American president in modern history. Not only does he have both houses of Congress beholden to him, but the majority of the Supreme Court is acting like a quintet of Bush lapdogs. And it all appears legal.

28 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:42:30pm

blogaddict (#26)

I read the same version you did. How very strange.

29 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:51:48pm

Very interesting.

US court orders Hamas to pay damages

In a landmark decision, US District Judge Ronald Lagueux upheld a preliminary ruling issued by a magistrate judge in July, 2003 that found Hamas responsible for the deaths of Yaron Ungar, a US citizen, and his Israeli wife Efrat, who were gunned down by terrorists near Beit Shemesh while returning from a wedding. The ruling was made after Hamas repeatedly failed to respond to the lawsuit; an attorney for the Ungar family, David Strachman, noted that Hamas officials in Gaza and Damascus, including the organization's spiritual leader Sheikh Ahmed Yassin, were served with court papers.

Judgments against Hamas's co-defendants in the suit, the Palestinian Authority and the Palestine Liberation Organization, are pending. An Israel court has convicted four Hamas members in the June 9, 1996 slaying.

30 Anne Elk (not an elk)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:52:02pm

About 25 years ago (hmm, I am showing my age), I saw with my own eyes, the Protocols on sale in Buenos Aires in magazine stands in the subway stations.

31 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:53:32pm

Sweden bombarded over art exhibit

Following a row between Sweden and Israel over a controversial art exhibit, Prime Minister Persson's office has been bombarded with thousands of protest e-mails at the request of the Simon Wiesenthal Center, a government official said Tuesday.

"This morning we had received 13,603 on-line protest letters," government registrar Ulla Hildert said in an telephone interview.

Give 'em hell! LOL.

32 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 8:56:51pm
33 Ms. Andi  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:01:52pm

#32 zulubaby

target rich enviroment

34 jimmytheclaw  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:02:57pm

#5 mbruce 1/27/2004 09:16PM PST


Begging to be nuked they are(channeling yoda)

/channeling bigel is mor apropriate

35 Jewels (aka Julian)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:03:21pm

#27 A. van Hilten

I understand your anger, but wishing auschwitz on anyone is not funny. Now a one way ticket to a severe beating, OTOH, I can back

36 Ms. Andi  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:04:13pm
Did Hitlerism Die with Hitler?

no

Well, that essay is chilling, though not suprising.

37 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:05:31pm

Two Arab prisoners on list refusing to go to Lebanon

The article doesn't state why they're refusing to go to Lebanon but I would love to know their reasons.

In one strange late twist, two of the 35 Arab prisoners scheduled for release refused to be incorporated in the exchange deal. Ayid Sanusi, a citizen of Morocco, was arrested in Israel several years ago as an illegal resident. He was subsequently released, remained in the country and got married here. In 2001, he was arrested again on domestic violence charges and was slated for expulsion. Sanusi is refusing to be sent to Lebanon with the other prisoners in the deal.
Also, Haaretz has learned that a second prisoner has refused to go to Lebanon as part of the exchange even though Hezbollah had asked for his release.

Perhaps they enjoy life in jail? Bizarre.

In addition, three prisoners originally from Sudan who were detained in Israel for illegal residence have been granted political asylum by Sweden and will go there after first being taken to Germany.
38 jimmytheclaw  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:06:07pm

#16 FH 1/27/2004 09:48PM PST


The lesson of the day: believe those who say they plan on killing you. And pre-empt them before they do. Too bad the left is smoking pot and reading Marx instead of paying attention to the lesson.

hey i still smoke on occasion and if i read the news or watch the news it makes me even more paranoid

39 firebrand  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:09:19pm

As a failed art student Hitler mainly drew pictures of buildings devoid of proper perspective, focal points, and nataural embellishments such as trees and people. The buildings were always compressed tightly together, choking off open space effecting feelings of claustrophobia, or entrapment. But when he did include people in his drawings they were totally out of proportion to the buildings. The people were always drawn too small with the leviathan structures diminishing them. Often the view was as if he were observing from above.

40 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:16:08pm

Ms. Andi (#33)

Can you imagine all those stinky terrorists squished into a couple of rooms? Ugh.

41 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:18:52pm
U.S. federal appeals court rules that 84-year-old accused Nazi collaborator must give up his U.S. citizenship

Get the Nazis out of here. How did these bastards get US citizenship in the first place?

42 Time to Make a Stand  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:21:42pm

Last month, I got an interesting history lesson. It was one of my father's school reunions in a village about 15 klicks outside of Frankfurt. They are all getting on in years - and this was a rare visit of mine to the area. (I didn't go when stationed in Germany.)

We started talking about the war years - these were all school kids during the war, and some of the older ones were required to be in the Hitler Youth. (I got a 1938 Ein Reich, Ein Volk, Ein Furher medal from one of the attendees.)

Some of the kids came from families that were supporting the Nazis - the ones whose families were in prominent positions of power. Some, were Communists, who opposed Hitler, and had family members die in the camps. Others were like my father's family - they dispised Hitler, and hid people - and were only saved for 2 reasons. One was the fact that 3 family members were heros serving on the Eastern Front, and the other was the Gauleiters' wife was my grandmothers' best friend.

We talked a lot about politics, and what was happening today in the world. Now, some, are kool-aid drinkers and root for the EU and dispise the US. Others, look at the impact of the immigrants around Frankfurt, and want blood from the islamics.

But, some of the most interesting comments came from some of those whose families were Nazis. They felt the pain of the loss of WW2, and the cause that they "supported". But they also see very little difference in what Hitler and Nazi's viewpoints with that of Bin Laden and the other fanatic Muslims. As far as they are concerned, Islam is a cult - no different from Nazism. They lay claim to a religion, just as the Nazis did, and follow many of the same premises. To these people, they see 60 years later, some of the same seeds being sown.

Until the moderates in Islam stand up for the perversions being made in the name of Islam - the attacks, the support for terrorism, the support for genocide, then there is only one course left for the rest of us - to define Islam as a cult, like Nazism, and hunt it down just as the US is doing in Iraq with the Baathists.

43 Mojo Jojo  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:22:11pm
Did Hitlerism die with Hitler

Some Arab oil Sheikh was able to obtain Hitler's DNA & is now cloning a new Hitler to be raised as a Muslim. Talk about scary!


/Just a theory

44 Ms. Andi  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:23:53pm

#40 zulubay

eeeww! Probably a horrible combination of b.o. and Tommy Hilfinger cologne.

shudder

#39 firebrand

That was an excellent description.

45 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:27:43pm

Ms. Andi, and in the mix is the stinkiest of them all, Arafat. When I wrote

Bomb the Mukata!

I was throwing up a prayer.

46 Josh  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:29:00pm

I remember reading excerpts of Hitler's second, unpublished book for a history seminar. He basically outlines his foreign policy. By foreign policy I mean aggression, expansion, mass murder and genocide. So much for appeasement...

#26: Blogaddict

You're right, those last few sentences do stick out like sore thumbs.

"The policies of the current Israeli government in the territories are indeed contrary to the strategic and moral interests of the Jewish state. So there is every reason in the world to reject attempts to justify objectionable Israeli policies by reference to the Holocaust."

I mean, both those sentences are true to a point. It is pretty disgusting when the Israeli government just blurts out "we can do it, because of Auschewitz" or something to that effect. As well, the settlements needlessly imperil the lives of civilians, as well as give a disproportionate amount of power to certain political parties in Israel. They also give the Palestinians' terror campaign a moral legitimacy -in the eyes of Israel's usual enemies (the Europeans, mainly).

Still, it's a very strange bit of writing.

Josh

47 firebrand  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:33:59pm

#31 zulubaby

On a previous post, I believe it was the initial RAF pictures of death camps, I had submiited a comment with the link to the Wiesnthal protest form.

Bigel answered that it would probably be useless to ask such vile antisemites as the Swedes to do anything.

Since then the public ads for the Dror Feiler exhibit were removed, but the exhibit remained. Then the government required the Israeli Embassy (or was it the consulate?) to move its HQ saying that its present location is a safety hazard.

48 hershel  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:41:23pm

#22 Zulubaby

Haj Amin al-Husseini, the most prominent Palestinian leader of the 20th century before Arafat - and founder of the PLO - was more than just a "fan" of Hitler. Expelled by the British from Palestine before WWII, Husseini spent the war in Berlin as a guest of Hitler. At one point he intervened to stop a plan to ransom Jewish children who would have gone to Palestine, instead sending them to their deaths in the Nazi gas chambers.
He was supposed to have been on the dock at Nuremburg but managed to escape to Syria with the help of .... (drum roll please)

THE FRENCH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

49 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:45:40pm

firebrand (#47)

It was the embassy that they demanded move out of the building that they've been in for 50 years because apparently it poses a security risk to the neighbourhood. What utter bullshit. The Israelis aren't exactly slack in the security department.

Some 40,000 Muslims live in Sweden, and have close ties with the Swedish left, he continued. They boycott Jews, hurt Jews, attack the embassy and the show was "the straw that broke the camel's back," the ambassador said.

Swedish teachers can no longer teach the Holocaust because 11 and 12 year old Muslim pupils "react violently," he said. The woman who owns the building where the embassy has been located for the past 50 years recently asked them to leave by the end of the year because the embassy's presence endangers the entire neighborhood, he reported.

"We have reached a situation where we must react -- not (in a) buttoned-up (fashion), but in a more resolute and active manner. There is no alternative. When you are here and serve in Europe... it is the only way to draw the world's reaction before a tragedy happens," he said alluding to the Holocaust. Neo-Nazis apparently smeared the embassy's wall after the Friday night incident. They painted a Swastika and added an inscription saying only that would free Palestine.

Instead of punishing the animals that do such things, they're punishing the victim.

50 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:54:11pm

hershel (#48)

The French are just unbelievable. Is there a moral or sane one amongst them?

51 uplate  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 9:55:43pm

The most powerful and searing documentary ever made was Alain Resnais' film, Night and Fog. Using actual footage from the SS archives, intercut with color shots of the camps in the 1960s when it was made, and with a narration that would make a stone weep.

The film, just about 38 min. long, was praised as the work of a genius, and it leaves nowhere for immoral apologists. The last few minutes are devoted to warning us that this can and will happen again, because humans retain the capacity for evil: the only defence is vigilance. And if we forget? we will go on with our lives heedlessly until it all happens again.

Do not be "deaf to the endless cry" of the dead....

52 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:03:09pm

uplate (#51)

I watched 'The Pianist' not very long ago and cried for three days. A friend told me about 'Night and Fog' but I'm still trying to find the courage to watch it. From what I've heard it is devastating.

53 zulubaby  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:07:56pm

IMDb user comments for Nuit et brouillard

Called the "greatest film of all time" by director Francois Truffaut, the documentary Night and Fog by Alain Resnais shows the holocaust tragedy in all its horror. Though only thirty minutes in length, the film is devastating in its impact, so approach with caution. Night and Fog refers to the arrival of prisoners in Auschwitz under the cover of darkness and also the ultimate failure of the Nazis at Nuremberg to take responsibility for it. Written by Jean Cayrol, a holocaust survivor, and poetically narrated by Michel Bouquet, its gruesome images seem like a surreal nightmare.

The film opens in 1955 with an image of a barren field of grass with lush romantic music in the background. The scene then abruptly shifts to wartime. We are in Auschwitz and the prisoners are arriving. We are shown scenes shot after liberation that are so shocking that they have never been made public outside of this film. Resnais does not spare us: the hair shaved off the heads of women piled high on the floor, bodies -- men -women - children -- are tossed in a garbage pit like so much rubbish, their fat used to make soap. The film only lasts a short time, but the images remain indelible. Unwillingness to acknowledge responsibility is depicted in brief scenes of the Nuremberg Trials. As we witness the conscious distortion of the past still going on today, we are left numb.

What the Nazis only did! It's overwhelming.

54 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:10:06pm

OT

Largest Muslim population in the world: Indonesia

Most Dangerous region for Piracy: Indonesia

Sea piracy hits record high

Record levels of piracy and violence has forced the International Maritime Bureau (IMB) to demand greater government protection and single out Indonesia as the nation with the world's most dangerous waters.

...................

In the past 12 months, there has been an "abnormal trend" in which pirates hijack tugboats and barges for unknown reasons, the report said. IMB's Choong said Wednesday: "We have no idea where the boats have been taken and what they're being used for." He speculated the vessels may be used by Indonesian crime syndicates for smuggling. After the September 11 attacks on the United States, the IMB has consistently warned that ships, such as tankers carrying explosive natural gas, could be hijacked and used as weapons.
55 Jewels (aka Julian)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:14:21pm

OT, and worrisome: Platoon detects radiation on four trucks

[Link: www.tribnet.com...]

As ever, the press doesn't even do a minimal check for correct terminology. The correct phrase in this case is centirads, not centigrade. 100 centrads = 10 millirads = 1 rad per hour

56 JAPAM  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:16:46pm

re 48

yes, Haj Amin Al Husseini - the grand mufti of Jerusalem. He incited the hebron masscres in 1929 and many other atrocities.

He also requested a solution to the jewish arab conflict in Palestine, having the interests of the arabs at heart, in line with the solution to the jewsih question in europe.

He had plans to return to Palestine (after Germany wins the war) and to build death camps modelled on the Auschwitz example. I cant remember in which towns these would be built, but the source is so clear that it cites the actual places where Al Husseini was going to build these camps.

May his dear soul burn in hell.

57 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:17:15pm

and back on topic;

Sharansky: Israeli 'Nazifiers' are traitors

Lapid said that the danger of today's anti-Semitism is not from "groups of bullies," who are curbed by countries that are still ashamed of the Holocaust, but from the "academic Left" that hates Israel and depicts it as a "white colonial entity." According to Lapid, the academic Left translates its anti-Semitism into the "language of anti-Zionism."
However, Lapid said the most dangerous anti-Semitism is from fanatic Islam, which threatens the existence of Judaism around the world.
58 Elle Plater  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:47:56pm

Read this link about the relationship with the Palestinians and Hitler

The Mufti was a genocidal racist who led Hitler's Final Solution in Eastern Europe.

59 Jewels (aka Julian)  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 10:58:59pm

OT: Europe Finally Get's A Cortex

[Link: frontpagemag.com...]

60 blogaddict  Tue, Jan 27, 2004 11:08:43pm

For further reading on the subject--the role of the Nazis in the development of virulent Arab anti-Semitism was explored at length in Bernard Lewis' excellent book Semites and Anti-Semites [Link: www.amazon.com...]

61 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 12:52:41am

OT

Brit journalist's Union in fine form.

Back Gilligan or face dispute, union tells BBC

The BBC must back Andrew Gilligan or face an industrial dispute by its journalists, the head of the National Union of Journalists warned today as it emerged that the BBC reporter will face strong criticism in Lord Hutton's report.

So back the union and forget about whatever facts maybe presented, or else.

"Our reaction would be to immediately back him, to represent him at any subsequent hearings, and to argue with our members that they should take whatever action is necessary to protect his position," he told the al-Jazeera website.

And what about Kilroy-silk's position, and why are they whining to al-jaqaeda?

"Any investigative journalist performing a public service has to feel that they are being supported. The worst thing that could come out of the Hutton report would be for journalists to become timid in the face of government attempts to manipulate the news agenda."

An investigative reported will get plenty of support as long as they have integrity and don't bias themselves by making up or falsely presenting information.

62 bigel - the bane of Europe  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:32:49am

Of course it didn't die with Hitler. Europeans LOVE Hitler. They only regret he didn't get to finish the job of killing every last Jew in Europe.

And the further left you go politically in Euronaziland, the MORE they love him.

63 scaramouche  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:46:34am

OT: God Bless America.

[Link: www.jpost.com...]

64 ploome  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:52:08am

Bigel....

if you want to see the ugly face of ignorance and anti semitism...

see this

[Link: educationforum.ipbhost.com...]


[Link: educationforum.ipbhost.com...]

65 Bay Area Hawk  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:54:02am

Check out this scary link:

[Link: wwd.ieplugin.com...]

66 Bay Area Hawk  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:55:38am

For the above link, click on "Only the Media can save us."

67 Pierre  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:02:48am

For those who can catch the French TV

tf1 gives this evenink at 7:55 PM GMT (20h500 local), "Hitler, la naissance du mal" (French version of "Hitler : The Rise of Evil")

followed by a debate "How was it possible ? Could this still happend today ?"


See here for more indication

Zulubaby:

Get the Nazis out of here. How did these bastards get US citizenship in the first place?

Real politik has no prefered country.

load of nazis compromised persons could save their asses if simply "still usefull"

just 2 examples :
In France :
Maurice Papon who handled all deportation logistc arounfd Bordeaux, not only "escaped" but made a BRILLANT career due to how much he knew abour how much people. I became minister under VGE in the 70s

In USA :
Werner Von Braun was not a "Professeur Tournesol" out of the world, he fully knew what he was doing when desining the V2 rockets to Hitler.
After the war, America NEEDED person knowing how to build rockets....

I watched 'The Pianist' not very long ago and cried for three days. A friend told me about 'Night and Fog' but I'm still trying to find the courage to watch it. From what I've heard it is devastating.

I saw the Pianist one year ago. very good film.

If you cried for 3 day about the Pianist which always keep some light of hope, you must forsee 3 years for "Nuit et brouillard"... I watched it more than 30 years ago at eleven It is beyond all words or even feelings.

68 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:15:53am

OT:

There will never be peace in Israel, according to European advisors. Why?

Crooke: No chance for peace without Hamas approval

I guess he has missed the part where Hamas said there would never be a peace between them and Israel. So how would Crooke remedy this? A truce.

Crooke charges that a cease-fire enables Hamas to be part of a diplomatic process that, in itself, ends the discussion over whether to liquidate the organization. "The objective of a cease-fire or hudna allows the Islamics to engage in the process by circumventing the issue of their destruction.

Ah, yes, a hudna will allow them a chance at diplomacy. And we've seen what Hamas plans for the hudna, citing this article.

According to the plan, the Palestinians would first establish a state on any chunk of land vacated by Israel as a result of a "peace" agreement, international pressure or war. From this rump state, the Palestinians would then mobilize a general Arab assault on a far less defensible Israel.

Luckily, Israel has learned from past dealing with the Palis.

Israel scorns Hamas proposal of 10-year truce

69 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:41:19am

I can loathe and understand the never-ending fascination with Hitler. What is sad, however, is the larger neglect--except in studies by Browning, Goldhagen, J.P. Stern and a few others--of the bond between Hitler and the people, his followers. We're still too much into old "great (evil included) men" kind of study of history, and too little into how and why these leaders touched the nerves of so many in their countries.
We get the leaders we deserve--there is some truth to that, but examinig it makes too many of us uncomfortable.

70 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:07:19am
71 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:09:04am

I hate the terms "Islamofascism" or "Islamism". They are an attempt to distinguish and thereby cleanse the majority of Moslems from the so-called fundamentalists. Just as there were good Germans during the Third Reich, there are, probably, good Moslems. So what? The majority of Moslems are silent and uncomplaining, for the most part, in the face of hate, so their "goodness" is entirely a construct on our part. Do they all hate Jews? Probably not all. But most do, I believe. As most hate the West, hate eachother. If the Moslems really wanted to just get along with others, they would. But, they don't. The Moslem states are, almost without exception, evil, cruel places. That evil and cruelty doesn't come from a vacuum. Like flies, it comes from the maggots that is Islam. I am waiting for the peaceful practicioners of the Religion of Peace to make themselves known. I'm sure I'll be waiting a long time.

72 b  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:12:13am

Yeah, the only thing is the muslims don't have an army or scientists or technology. And they never will.

The muslims are like the old man who barked.

They're dangerous and disgusting, and they may steal some dangerous weapons and wreak havoc. But it's not going to be another era like what the nazis did.

Except maybe for Israel. It doesn't even have to be this way for Israel, but they are going to have to fight and kill for it not to be.

If Israel doesn't confront their enemy leadership, they will suffer greater and greater attacks until the inevitable lucky shot.

I guess this is the plight of the pacificist. To perpetually hyperventilate over historical similarities all the while doing nothing proactive.

The rest of the world marches on however, right past the pacificist.

It's disgusting to watch pacificists get slaughtered. I don't know why, but, I guess because it's so stupid.

73 Ben F  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:24:42am

#38 jimmytheclaw sez:

The lesson of the day: believe those who say they plan on killing you.

You're about one step away from the Redneck Rules of Gunfighting, which, if I am not mistaken, are the basis for the Bush Administration's foreign policy.

Somewhere along the line, [my father] explained to me the Redneck Rules of Gunfighting, which went something like this: Never pull a gun unless you mean to kill somebody. Once you've shown the gun, you must kill somebody. If you're surrounded, kill the meanest man first, then keep shooting until you're out of ammo; then go get more ammo.

The corollary was: If somebody pulls a gun on you, they mean to kill you. Try to get away. If you're able to get away, you must then go kill the person who pulled the gun on you, because if you don't, he will eventually hunt you down and kill you.

I took this literal and serious.

74 Studebaker Hawk  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:25:02am

I have a problem with the term anti-semitism. It seems too mild as though it only opposes Jews or seeks to contain Jewish influence. A better, more descriptive term, say Jew-hatred, or Jew-murderism, is needed to convey the visceral, viscious, violence that is at its rotten core.

I hate Nazis, neo-, paleo-, Islamo- whatever. This virulent stain on humanity needs to be excised like the cancer that it is.

(I'm not a Jew, but I play one on LGF)

75 ibrodsky  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:30:28am

#71 Seymour Paine

I hate the terms "Islamofascism" or "Islamism". They are an attempt to distinguish and thereby cleanse the majority of Moslems from the so-called fundamentalists. Just as there were good Germans during the Third Reich, there are, probably, good Moslems. So what? The majority of Moslems are silent and uncomplaining, for the most part, in the face of hate, so their "goodness" is entirely a construct on our part. Do they all hate Jews? Probably not all. But most do, I believe. As most hate the West, hate eachother. If the Moslems really wanted to just get along with others, they would. But, they don't. The Moslem states are, almost without exception, evil, cruel places. That evil and cruelty doesn't come from a vacuum. Like flies, it comes from the maggots that is Islam. I am waiting for the peaceful practicioners of the Religion of Peace to make themselves known. I'm sure I'll be waiting a long time.

You are badly mistaken. Most Turks would rather be part of the West than allied with the Arabs. Turkey has a large Jewish population and is allied with Israel. Israel aided Turkey after a major earthquake and people named their kids born at the time things like "Israel." Turkey has more anti-Muslim dress restructions than France is even contemplating.

Admittedly, Turkey has taken a step in the wrong direction of late, but the armed forces are still solidly in favor of secular government.

Indonesia is also an interesting example. And the majority of Iranians are fed up with Islamo-fascism.

There are also pro-Israel Muslim clerics, such as Palazzi in Italy and even a former leader of Malaysia.

76 Carl in Jerusalem  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:34:18am

# 17 soy_yanqui

Yes, Mein Kampf is available in Arabic, and yes, it is a best-seller in the Arab world.

# 23 A. van Hilten

Have you seen what's going on at Anne Frank's house this week? Sharon and Hitler are sharing space

# 37 Zulubaby

Would YOU want to go to Lebanon? Of course you wouldn't!

# 48 Hershel

Husseini was also Arafat's uncle.

# 57 Kragar (proud to be Kafir)

Pretty funny to see Lapid making comments like that given that he himself has made comments about Haredim that were worthy of publication in Der Stumer. Here's what Lapid had to say about American immigrants to Israel the summer before last:

You look at Beit Shemesh and you see all the problems that religion is causing in Israel," said Yosef Lapid, head of the secular Shinui Party, whose supporters see it as a counter to larger, more established Orthodox religious parties. "They attack Russians because they want to eat pork, or because some of their husbands happen to be Christians. Then they get upset about a McDonald's being open on Saturdays.
Part of the problem is the character of the immigration from the United States: it's more orthodox. We get very little support from the conservative or reform Jewish communities in the United States. So what you end up with is a mushrooming native population of ultra- religious, followed by a migration of religious North American Jews who, quite frankly, we could do without.
77 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:41:40am

#76 Carl in Jerusalem

Yeah, I've heard that Lapid is kind of "out there", as far as politicians go.

78 newscaper  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:58:06am

Only slightly OT:

I was watching my Babylon 5 Season 4 DVD set yesterday and in one of the later episodes a character recounts the genocidal mass movements of the the past.

Along wih the the Nazi party and the Communist in the 20th century he mentions the "Jihad Party" of the the 21st.

This was written a few years before 9-11.

Nicely prescient by JMS.

P.S. he also mentions a later 21st century relapse in a 2nd wind for communism in Russia.

79 Carl in Jerusalem  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:05:07am

# 77 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Lapid is just one of many Jewish anti-Semites here (there's a reason his party has 15 Knesset seats). Another is Yigal Tumarkin, a sculptor to whom Education Minister Limor Livnat has decided to award the Israel Prize. Here's a choice quote from him that is also worthy of Der Stumer:

If anti-Semites see these haredim, it made it much easier for them to justify the Holocaust, because a type of a Jew like this, unfortunately, creates anti-Semitism, whether they like it or not
80 JohninLondon  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:12:54am

OT

The conclusions of the Hutton enquiry into BBC allegations against Tony Blair and the death of Dr David Kelly are now published. Chapter 12 gives the summary of conclusions. Blair is entirely vindicated, the BBC is roundly condemned.

[Link: www.the-hutton-inquiry.org.uk...]

81 Baldy  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:17:46am
82 endnprbias  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:20:28am

Sharon and Hitler share space at Anne Frank house
By JPOST.COM STAFF

A photo of PM Ariel Sharon alongside one of Adolph Hitler is currently being exhibited at the Anne Frank Museum in Amsterdam, reported Army Radio Wednesday.

The photos are presented as part of an exhibition on 'borderline cases' aimed at testing the borders between freedom of expression and discrimination, according to the museum's spokesman.

Viewers are shown a video, in which demonstrators held a poster of Hitler and Sharon in protest over Israel's policies in the Palestinian territories.

They are then asked to vote on whether in the name of fighting racism, freedom of speech may be infringed on.

DISGUSTING

83 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:36:26am

#75 ibrodsky

Yes, modern Turkey is perhaps a counterexample (forgetting of course the Armenian genocide), but, if true, it would be just about the only one, which really seems to prove my point. If in the whole Moslem world there is one Moslem country, not Arab, and physically and culturally close to Europe, which is not a vat of hatred and evil, and which badly wants the goodies Europae is dangling in front of them, that speaks volumes about the rest of them (and I include our new "friends" the Iraqis among the rest: evil, thuggish, brutish, virulently anti-Semitic. Helping them is a total waste of money). And, yes, as I said, there were good Germans during the Third Reich, even some who opposed Hilter from the start and many who died because of that opposition (not like the White Rose Group who opposed Hitler when he was losing). But what? You found two examples among 1.2 billion of them? Yikes!! That probably makes Moslems more like one big Nazi Party than like the Germans (some good, some bad).

84 b  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:43:18am

83

So what do you want to do, kill all of them?

Helping the Iraqis is a great idea. Especially if they become something like Turkey. The dynamic of having a neighbor and competitor, and friend, like Turkey and Iraq may become something uncalculable. In the good sense.

Oh yeah, did I mention Iraq has a big fucking pool of oil? And the 'world' needs oil.

85 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:45:13am

#83, Seymour Paine

You are right to say that there were good Germans in the Third Reich, but I'd change the "many" who died for opposing Hitler to "some."
The Scholl siblings and Professor Huber were part of a German resistance, but it was small and largely ineffective (the military came in primarily after the war was lost.) There were good Germans who performed individual acts of compassion and heroism, but on the whole I'd agree with A.J.P. Taylor's assessment that the German resistance "was a myth.''

86 westward ho  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:46:42am

#82 endnprbias,
Murderous antisemitic propaganda now disguises itself as art, such revolting nonsense, such cheapening of the Holocaust, yup Bush & Sharon have floated a new company selling soap made from Muslims called 'Git mo Soap' selling perfume called 'The fragrance of Paradise' , selling footwear called 'Pig skin Leather', selling sweaters called 'Burkasmere'. And no prizes for guessing what the latter 3 products are made from.
Sigh Bigel is starting to look like a visionary

87 westward ho  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:03:33am

#80 JohninLondon,
I am watching it on the Beeb right now, three cheers for Lord Hutton - Priceless anti-Idiotarian - sigh the older generation of Brits-at least they exist, thank you the last bastion of moral sanity in Europe.

88 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:05:40am

#84 Right, Iraq, virulently anti-Semitic, but it will become just like Turkey (again, forgetting the minor little Armenian genocide). Now that's a $200 billion wish we're making. I hope you are correct, that they will become like Turkey, moderate (somewhat), West-oriented. But it doesn't look like it.

As for killing all of them: sadly, that is not doable, but the world, the civilized world, would be better off without them. No Moslems=No Terror.

Nowadays, everything we do is filtered through the prism of Islamic terror. All our lives are twisted by this; our economies are hurt; we are back to days like the 1950s when we lived with the possibility of nuclear destruction. Now we share a planet with a people who want to eliminate us. So, yes, I'm for killing them all, if that were possible. Like with the Germans and Japanese: we utterly destroyed their societies because they attacked us. Sadly the Moslems are all too f*cking stupid to read history books and learn that lesson. I would support any move to eliminate tem. But that is just wishful thinking on my part.

And, just to note: They started it and they keep it going. But we will end it.

89 abu-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:08:34am

OT - Ok ladies, back to your side of the screen reform is on the way, probably not in your lifetime, but maybe in another 1400 years - be patient.

"The mixing between men and women is totally forbidden under sharia (Islamic law) and highly punishable. It is...the root of every evil and catastrophe," said the mufti, a descendant of Mohammed Abdel Wahhab, the religious leader who with the ruling House of Saud founded Saudi Arabia.
90 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:11:04am

#85 observer

Please forgive me for acting as if I were a German history expert. Apart from Inside the Third Reich and a few others, I am a total novice (apart from loving the German language).

91 Kelly  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:15:28am

Honor Killings of women

Is it morally acceptable to kill a sister that did not want to marry a man your father picked out?

Many seem to think so. Let Atlanta know how you feel.

92 Curious  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:18:17am

OT Hutton enquiry - the BBC comes in for a lot of criticism. While I wouldn't like to see it government controlled I hope this makes it re-think its LLL Agenda.

93 Señor papijoe  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:21:14am

# 54 Kragar

Largest Muslim population in the world: Indonesia


Most Dangerous region for Piracy: Indonesia


Send in Presley O’Bannon!

94 WriterMom  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:21:19am

#53 zulubaby

I've seen Night and Fog and had already seen most of the types of images presented in still photographs. It is shocking footage, but I think it's really important to see it because it's real. It's not easy to look at bulldozers ploughing through the piles of emaciated bodies, but I think it's essential to have those precise images in our minds when we speak about the evils committed by the Nazis, communists and now-the Muslims.

I've been even more shaken by survivor testimonials like Night and Primo Levi's writings, and hearing survivors speak about their experiences.

Also: Omer Bartov wrote a REALLY good book called "Hitler's Army. Soldiers, Nazis, and War in the Third Reich".

It's an excellent look at how the German army, and regular reservists were completely in the Nazi mindset in murdering civilians ("Judeo-Bolsheviks"), and how the war turned into the Nazi "clash of civilzations' with operation Barbarosa in 1941. There are also a lot of very eerie comparisons to Islamonazis (a culture that glorified death, the imagery, etc...) I would highly recommend it.

95 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:23:06am
96 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:27:48am

#90, Seymour Paine

Hey, you're raising good points. The German resistance issue has been a sore one for decades. On the one hand, you want to give credit to the early opponents of Hitler (Church, Communists)--but the Church struck a bargain and the Commies got wiped out, fled, or shut up. During the war, opposition was fiendishly difficult--not just because of the highly efficient Gestapo, but also because so many average Germans acted as informants. The one group that could have opposed Hitler earlier but didn't (with one or two tiny exceptions) was the military. Some went along happily with his ideology, others were torn between duty and conscience, most sniffed victory and glory and acted only when that possibility evaporated. The recent exhibit that toured in Germany ("Verbrechen der Wehrmacht"--"Crimes of the Wehrmacht"--chronicles the contribution of the Army to genocide and to the "work" usually credited to only the SS.

97 Yankev  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:32:08am

#3, Rusta

In fact, the author draws quite a few parallels -- explicitly.
Yankev

98 abu-Hoo-Hoo  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:37:45am

ot - French cabinet approves headscarf ban

there are probably some hot little hajib heads today...

99 papijoe  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:38:03am

#73 Ben F

That's a keeper. I'll file it under Classics of Jacksonian America.

Reads like some of the best writing Stephen Hunter has done.

101 Jewels (AKA Julian)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:49:23am

OT: heads up! looks like pakistan is in the crosshairs

[Link: www.danieldrezner.com...]

102 Throbert McGee  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:49:50am

but these morons really ought to get a one way ticket to Auschwitz

Nah, better to take a tip from C.M. Kornbluth and give the morons one-way tickets to Venus, where they can spend the livelong day relaxing on the planet's sun-kissed tropical beaches, and where there's always a free lunch dangling within easy reach from the ham-sandwich trees...

103 Jeff  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:49:57am

When I was in 8th grade the teacher showed us films about Hitler's reign.

I remember thinking: "oh that could never happen again, people would notice something like that and nip it in the bud."

Yet here we are, and not only is a LARGE segment of the world sticking its head in the sand in the plain face of evil, many are overtly ROOTING for the bad guys.

How could this happen in the 21st century?

104 westward ho  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:53:08am

#75 ibrodsky,
Allah attracts murderous morons like shit attracts flies,
I hope that the moderates are able to win, given human nature they are in the majority, they are like the Nazi moderates i.e. they will only have a voice when Muslims feel that they are going to lose badly or we can continue Like that Norwegian professor in one of Mark Steyn's columns who said that Scandinavian chicks ought to cover themselves to prevent themselves from being brutally gangraped by Muslims - I feel that this war will not be won till we can Shout out loudly that Islam is the Problem not the Answer - and they breed like Bacterislam moronicus-breeding and unaccountable terrorism are their strategies-F*cking Suicidal Liberals in the west who will try to understand the Rapist when Radical Islam shoves its Blodied dickhead up the west's ass are the first enemies.
Apologies for the bad Language & numerous spelling mistakes.
Goodnight.

105 Judith  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:05:07am

Lord Hutton really trounced the BBC. I watched Tony Blair in parliment and it was quite something. A strong "I have been vindicated, now say you're sorry, BBC!" speech. Good for Tony Blair.

So the next question is, will anything change at the BBC?

106 westward ho  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:08:50am

#95 bigel,
You are looking like a Prophet now - This century will be the bloodiest - what a Tragic Worldview.

107 papijoe  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:10:04am

100 leo (dissident view from Berlin)

Wow, there is something really poignant about the Leadbelly song, he could have easily subtitled it Blues for the Jews

I think about how the Jewish/African-American alliance has almost disappeared and I can't understand what happened. Jesse Owens humiliated Hitler because they excluded Jewish athletes in the Olympics in Berlin, African-American soldiers liberated concentration camps and formed lifelong friendship with the victims, Jewish freedom riders died in the cause of civil rights in the South, MLK boldly stated that Israel had 6 million reasons for defending itself in '67. What happened? Obviously the Black Muslim movement is to blame, but how do you explain Jesse Jackson who is (nominally) a Christian? African American evangelicals support Israel, but other than that, the outlook is bleak.
I'm going to listen to old Leadbelly again.

108 Let's Roll  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:10:30am

OT -- from HonestReporting:

Partisan Editing at Herald Tribune

The International Herald Tribune alters NY Times copy to make Israel look worse to their European readership.

109 WriterMom  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:20:01am

#108 Let's Roll, this is related to what you just wrote, a little OT but funny.

The New York Times is hiring!!!

Anyone out there want to apply? It seems to me that they missed some qualifications:

-Must be able to fabricate stories at a moment's notice.
-Must be fully fluent in diversiphony language.
-Must swear to count Palestinian terrorists and their victims in equal tally sheets.
-Must ignore attrocities such as Stalinist famine, Islamic fratricidal terror in favour of reporting on Der Yassin.

I'm sure I've missed a few.

110 Necklace of shoes  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:24:56am

Night and Fog is a must see.
If this film doesn't disturb you your humanity is in question. Sadly remakes featuring the Balkans (Srebrenica)and Africa (Ruwanda & Sudan). For that matter 9/11 is another remake for thousands were killed for simply being Americans.

111 mal  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:26:02am

excellent article by a left winger!
hawk


[Link: www.dissentmagazine.org...]

112 Camel Prophet  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:27:50am

Essential download: Memri's paper to a conference on genocide in Stockholm:

[Link: www.memri.org...]

113 westward ho  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:30:48am

#107 papijoe,Bigel,
The are Here Because OF ROP, as Andew B, Lets F*kem
Kill the M'Fers. Nuke Em.

114 b  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:33:51am

#88

So, yes, I'm for killing them all, if that were possible.

This is an error, to say the least.

It IS possible to kill them all. So that's why it's wrong to be for this.

---

And they don't have an army. I have to keep repeating.

The muslims should be routed and utterly humiliated and taken down from any position of power they might have.

But to actually want to kill an entire people is vile. To me anyway.

What's happening is a lot of things are going on at the same time. We are at war. That's why everything in your life may seem to be filtered through Islamic terrorism. But, we're at war, why would you think otherwise.

And the muslim situation is imploding in the face of their future, which is here now. They're are all fucked up and they don't know which way is up. The end point of religion is force, violence, and death. And they've swallowed the religion hook, --- line, and sinker.

What we have to do, is when someone preaches jihad, we have to shoot him. And then just rinse and repeat until this ends.

And then, as incomprehensible as it might seem to you, there are people in the middle east who use religion soley to gain and keep power. They couldn't care less if one or a billion people are sacrificed, so long as they are the cleric, the imam, the dictator, whatever, you name it.

Religion to you is some sort of puppy dog and flower, nice thing.
But to them it's a tool.

When this is over there are going to be a few less believers in the world. And religious leaders won't only be known as pedophiles, child molestors, and money grubbers. They'll be known as killers.

And that'll be a good thing!

115 Smitty  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:35:47am

#105 Judith

I heard on the radio news this a.m. that some details of the Hutton report was leaked which has already stirred up calls for another investigation into why the report about the leaked dossier was leaked...but I digress.

It looks like the BBC will come out on the smelly end of this one as it should. Hope this sends vfi into fits...

Where are the Brits?

116 AddictedLizardoid  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:41:14am

Ooo, fun stuff.

Blair Cleared, BBC Under Fire

They say that the BBC is "often embroiled in political controversy"...gee, like that's news.

117 Outsider  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:43:04am

#84 - b

Economically speaking, Iraq is a liability. Its oil resources will not be sufficient to bring it back on track, and the US will have to invest huge amounts of money, for which there will be no compensation when Iraq goes back on track decades from now (Allah forbid the greedy Yankees should get anything in return for saving a nation from a tyrant and helping it back on its feet).
The value of Iraq is military-strategic, creating a large pro-american strip of land including Israel, Jordan, Iraq in the heart of the middle east.
As far as Syria, Iran are concerned, the threat to have their regimes deposed becomes far more tangible when US troops & guns are right across the border. Call it a visual teaching aid.

118 rayra[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:43:46am
119 Judith  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:43:59am

What time is it in Britain? Maybe all our Brit LGFs are busy glued to the TV watching the parlimentary debate on the issue instead of reading LGF.

OT Public inquiry on Arar case called.. I sure hope Mr. Arar has nothing to hide because if it does, he's toast now. Heads will roll somewhere after this.

120 JohninLondon  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:45:16am

Latest news on BBC - the Chairman of the BBC is reported to be offering his resignation to the Board of Governors this evening - in the next hour, while they have dinner before their meeting expected tomorrow.

Source of story - the BBC's own chief political reporter, Andrew Marr. (One of the basically good guys IMHO)

But it is Greg Dyke (Director General) who should resign. He is the editor-in-chief. He failed to investigate the Gilligan issue properly. But I'm not holding my breath for this.

121 Judith  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:48:27am

Chairman of the BBC!?! Wow! I wonder if this means the top guy will be the fall guy and everyone else will just carry on as usual or if it will mean any real change.

122 Outsider  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:50:50am

#91 - Kelly

IIRC, According to Islamic marriage,
after the agreement procedure between the husband and the father, the witnesses come to the woman and asks if she accepts the marriage. Theoretically she is allowed to say no.

In practice, it is considered shameful for the family,
therefore turning it down is likely a dangerous choice...

123 JohninLondon  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:52:54am

BBC website now confirms Andrew Marr's report that the Chairman is about to tender his resignation to the Governors this evening - looks like about an hour.

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

124 b  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:53:45am

#117

Economically speaking, Iraq is a liability.

This is not true. Just having another free country to trade with is an economic benefit. And that's all I'm talking about really. I didn't mean to imply that they have great assets. But the oil is not insignificant.

The value of Iraq is military-strategic, creating a large pro-american strip of land including Israel, Jordan, Iraq in the heart of the middle east.

I agree totally. But what is a 'pro-American strip of land'? It's a free country producing what it produces and trading it.

So it's kind of circular or all the same thing.

It's going to dawn on people, over there, over here, and everywhere, that where America wins, everybody wins.

Everyone's wealth increases.

Only the people who want to sleep on a bed of nails will be disappointed. The fucking religious people.

125 Curious  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:55:50am

Interestingly Michael Howard, the Opposition Leader (who happens to be Jewish) talks about a 'cabal of ministers' - could this be a dig at Tam Dalyell who talked about a 'cabal of Jewish advisers'?

126 Gary  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:56:29am

#100

Add to that playlist the classic "I Was Not a Nazi Polka" by the Chad Mitchell Trio. I wish I had a link to it. Anyone out there have an MP3?

127 JohninLondon  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:57:11am

Sky TV is also reporting that the Chairman of the BBC is about to resign :

[Link: www.sky.com...]

128 Smitty  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:57:44am

#116 Addicted,

But "The BBC is one of the world's largest and most respected news organizations." Yeah, right, whatever...

Man, looking at the thread topic I feel guilty. We need a new thread to talk about this!

129 dennisw  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:58:01am

Hitlerism has not died. I has been picked up by the extreme Islamics. Islam is very fertile ground for Hitlerism. One only needs to know how Muhammed lead a life of theivery, barbarism, terrorism and conquest to see an Arabian Hitler

130 Judith  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:58:53am

BBC page is full of commentary and reaction including a lovely bit about how the BBC gets it right 99.7% of the time. Yup 99.7% Koolaid and only 0.3% cyanide. Excuse me if I choose not to drink it.

131 Joel  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:02:38am

#82 endnprbias

I am not surprised. The Anne Frank House has been taken over by politically correct leftists for many years now.

132 Yossarian  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:10:11am

OT but one of the letters to the editor in the WaPo today mentions that MoveOn.org's ad was rejected as a SuperBowl commercial. Anyone else hear about this?

133 andrew  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:12:34am

#132 Yossarian
Yes, this is true. Rejected!

134 Daniel King  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:16:53am

An absolute must read:


A Friendly Drink in a Time of War

[Link: www.dissentmagazine.org...]


by Paul Berman


A friend leaned across a bar and said, "You call the war in Iraq an antifascist war. You even call it a left-wing war-a war of liberation. That language of yours! And yet, on the left, not too many people agree with you."

"Not true!" I said. "Apart from X, Y, and Z, whose left-wing names you know very well, what do you think of Adam Michnik in Poland? And doesn't Vaclav Havel count for something in your eyes? These are among the heroes of our time. Anyway, who is fighting in Iraq right now? The coalition is led by a Texas right-winger, which is a pity; but, in the second rank, by the prime minister of Britain, who is a socialist, sort of; and, in the third rank, by the president of Poland-a Communist! An ex-Communist, anyway. One Texas right-winger and two Europeans who are more or less on the left. Anyway, these categories, right and left, are disintegrating by the minute. And who do you regard as the leader of the worldwide left? Jacques Chirac?-a conservative, I hate to tell you."


It gets better...

135 Thom  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:17:01am

#132 Yossarian

True. Boo hoo. :)

-----------------------------------------

Where's Charles?

136 Smitty  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:21:35am

#132/#135

Heh. What are those dolts at MoveOn going to do after Bush gets re-elected?

137 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:23:37am

Bartov quotes Matthias Küntzel, whose articles are a worthful resource against the Zionazi delusion I can only recommend. And he throws up a question: Is a Jew who encourages the Zionazi delusion an antisemite? That's something I've also been asking myself recently when I read an essay of Uri Avneri. The most-printed Jew in Germany explained that despite the poll results Europe wasn't antisemitic because it was only that European media would tell the truth about the IDF, and that Europeans would see the Palestinian resistance in the footsteps of the French resistance during the German occupation (in fact he wrote German, not Nazi).

I haven't heard anybody here in Berlin making comparisons to the French resistance during the last months, and I listened to a lot of people telling all kinds of odd things about Israel and the U.S. And during the Jenin hoax, the Zionazi chatter was about the Polish resistance and the Warsaw Ghetto uprising. No mentioning of France here either. Even the Zionazi delusionists know that the Nazis were far more brutal in Poland, so why restrain the comparison by talking about France? Maybe Mr. Avneri prefers the association of France in this context because the amount of his audience in Israel resembles more the size of the French resistance than that of the Polish underground army. But of course he would never tell that to an audience abroad which believes him to be the voice of the other Israel.

It is at this point where refuting the Zionazi delusion with facts or preempting it with a civilian casualties minimization policy won't get any further. It also must be asked: Why do they deliberately want to believe a contrafactual thing? If it is about underlining that one is on the right side of history (because everybody in the West knows that the Nazis were on the wrong side of it), then one would care when proven wrong. Why could someone desperately want to hold up such a historically inconsistent absurdity of Orwellesque monstrousness as the Zionazi delusion?

The Polish philosopher Stanislaw Lem said that it is because nothing but the Zionazi delusion allows Westerners to kill Jews with a clear conscience:

"In his claim for infallacy, terrorism resembles the papacy of genocide that Nazism had aimed at. No suasion, no imploration, no cries for basic human solidarity or however natured extenuating circumstances, no mentioning of the absurdity or practical ineffectiveness of the murder, no argument at all could unsettle the henchmen - because they have an apparatus of prepared prejudices at their disposal able to denounce temperence and clemency as a perfidy equally despiteful to e.g. the anti-extremist lawmaking or the policy of conservative repression. The motivational shield of the terrorists becomes perfect in the moment when they can view any behavior type of the opposite side as an anew proof of guilt. Only this can explain the extraordinary well-being that the former SS henchmen present at their anniversary meetings."

And the German 9/11 conspiracy bestseller author Gerhard Wiesnewski explained:

"The crimes against the Jews need an appropriate place in history. They have got a right that we think about them and remember them as a warning - as a warning of the crimes of the Jews. Otherwise, the sacrifice of millions of Jewish humans would have been for nothing."

So if Mr. Avneri talks obvious nonsense about todays Europe and the French resistance, what is his motive? The possibility to gather an audience he cannot gather the honest way? Longterm personal friendship with European elites (like Der Spiegel's editor Rudolf Augstein who died in 2002)? Stupidity and ignorance? I might never know unless he tells himself. But I'd like to say one thing: If there's a new Hitler anywhere in the world the proper way to identify him is to look whom the Neonazis in Germany adore (guess whom). Is it really necessary to tell what they think about the IDF?

138 quark2  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:28:15am

@58 zulubaby

I have watched "The Pianoist" over and over. It's the remnants of memories seeping through the story that really touch you.

139 quark2  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:38:41am

@67 pierre


Are you residing in France? Can you give us some historical information on what is really taking place in your local?
How far back can you remember to the WWII days?
Do you have a website?

140 Studebaker Hawk  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 7:48:39am

#136

Move on?

141 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:02:53am

#88 Seymour Paine

As for killing all of them: sadly, that is not doable, but the world, the civilized world, would be better off without them. No Moslems=No Terror.

Hate to rain on the parade here, but did it ever occur to you that saying the world would be better off with no Muslims is the equivalent, from a moral perspective, of Muslims saying the world would be better off without Jews. Substitute the word Jew for the word Moslem in your post and you have a standard Islamofascist rant.

Perhaps you were only being hyperbolic and didn't LITERALLY mean you advocate the killing of 1.2 billion people, doable or not. But LGFers would agree I think that words matter. Just because we are facing a vile and destructive enemy does not mean that we must become like that enemy. You can be plenty tough on Islam and Muslims without resorting to that kind of rhetoric.

Contain Islamist influence in the West
Resist Islamic aggression
Foment positive change in the Islamic world
Support progressive Muslim leaders where they exist

Don't advocate genocide, even in jest.

Or do moral considerations have no place in an online debate?

142 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:03:01am

#137, leo

You can find many pieces (essays is too kind--a good essay has structure) by Avneri on COUNTERPUNCH, edited by Alexander Cockburn, who stands somewhat to the left of Lenin.
That he is the most printed Jew in Germany is most depressing--there was, after all, once upon a time a Kurt Tucholsky.
Avneri hates evrything about Israel, including its Jewishness. I suppose his bile is a tonic to some (many?) Germans--"See, we told you." Now one of "their own" is even saying it.
(Der Spiegel was a gutsy publication in the early days of the Bundesrepublik; now it's an awful rag--shallow, snitty.)

143 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:08:05am

BPP (#141)

Support progressive Muslim leaders where they exist

Do you know of any?

144 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:12:35am
145 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:19:06am

The Avnery article I referred to in #137 is also available in English: International Herald Tribune

146 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 8:45:23am

#144 bigel

You are truly an idiot, a disgusting moral degenerate.

Bigel - where has the love gone???

For those unlike bigel who are able to follow a simple argument, I advocated toning down the rhetoric and not calling for the total genocide of 1.2 billion people. Bigel aside, I would expect that most people would have little problem with that.

#141 zulubaby

King Abdullah of Jordan
Musharraf of Pakistan
Erdogan of Turkey

are moderate leaders worth supporting IMO.

Saad Ibrahim of Egypt is an example of a progressive leader in Egypt who is working for more democracy in Egypt and has been persecuted for it. I do not know what statements he has made about Jews.

Sadly the list that I can think of off the top of my head is short. There are better and worse leaders in the Muslim world, but few if any who are working actively to contain the rabid Jew-hatred in their world. The sole exception that I can think of is Erdogan, who has actually reached out to the Jewish community and denounced anti-Semitism.

Said it many times: I have no illusions about the Musim world

147 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 9:23:40am

#146, BPP

1. You equated Jew hatred with Muslim hatred. Jew hatred is grounded in the mere existence of Jews, while disgust for Muslims is based on what they do or hope to do--annihilate the Jews. (The Christians will have to submit or wait for their turn.) The Jews of Israel could have killed a vast number of Palestinians in the territories by now, but they have not even expelled or transferred them. Equivalence does not work here.
2. Since this thread started with Hitler and the survival of Hitlerism--read the article from TNR. Bartov looks closely at the exterminationist desire among Muslims--and cautions readers to take them at their word. As with Hitler, he suggests it may come down to a "Kill them--or be killed." Millions were killed because the West refused to take Hitler by his words.
3. That does NOT mean the death of 1.2 billion Muslims. But strong military/anti-immigration measures to stop the Muslim designs on the Jews and against the West may be necessary fairly soon. If they work, we may not have to go to bigel's options.
4. You cite Erdogen as the sole exception among Muslim leaders to their rabid antisemitism. Not a good sign. Remember the Israeli "Peace Now" demonstrations, where thousands marched? Two very, very different cultures. They don't know from "live and let live." Comparisons are odious.

148 Vancomycin  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 9:39:21am

#146, BPP

I'm pretty sure that observer hit all the relevant points, but here, let me restate them AGAIN.

1) Jews are hated for being Jewish. It's racism. Muslims are quickly gaining the "hated" status, not because they are Muslim, but because A) They stand and watch as "Muslims" kill thousands of people
or
B) They applaud, dance, cheer and celebrate when "Muslims" kill thousands of people
AND
C) "Muslims" have no qualms about killing thousands of people, be they men women or children.

2) No-one, and I mean no-one, wants a nuclear solution to this problem. However, I believe that if comes down to killing or being killed, we'll find out just how many nukes it would take to wipe out 1.1 billion people (or 1.2 billion...my guess is we'd still have some left over).

As observer said, you cited 1(!!!) person as an example...got any others to wash down the sight of hundreds or thousands dancing in the streets on 9/11?

149 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 10:22:05am

#147, 148, observer and vancomycin

You equated Jew hatred with Muslim hatred. Jew hatred is grounded in the mere existence of Jews, while disgust for Muslims is based on what they do or hope to do--annihilate the Jews.

I couldn't agree more. Which is why I never tried to equate Jew hatred and Muslim hatred. What I said was that words matter and we shouldn't stoop to the Muslims' rhetoric of annihilation. Of course there is no equivalence in terms of the justification or lack their for the feelings themselves.

Since this thread started with Hitler and the survival of Hitlerism--read the article from TNR. Bartov looks closely at the exterminationist desire among Muslims--and cautions readers to take them at their word. As with Hitler, he suggests it may come down to a "Kill them--or be killed."

I did read the TNR article closely. What Bartov said was that there are certain people that you cannot deal with and you may have to resign yourself to a kill or be killed posture. I agree with that totally. There is no reasoning with or bargaining with al Qaeda. It needs to be stamped out. Same goes for Hamas and the like. They will NEVER reconcile themselves to the presence of Jews. However, I reject the notion that this is what the entire Muslim world has become, although no doubt such absolutist views are gaining ground at a rapid pace.

That does NOT mean the death of 1.2 billion Muslims. But strong military/anti-immigration measures to stop the Muslim designs on the Jews and against the West may be necessary fairly soon.

I would argue this has started already and I wholeheartedly support it.

Muslims are quickly gaining the "hated" status, not because they are Muslim, but because A) They stand and watch as "Muslims" kill thousands of people B) They applaud, dance, cheer and celebrate when "Muslims" kill thousands of people
AND C) "Muslims" have no qualms about killing thousands of people, be they men women or children.

I believe that there are plenty of Muslims who do not fit the above description. Sadly, they are largely drowned out by the radicals. But let's assume that most are happy with Muslim terrorism. What do we say to those who are not? Do we say "too bad, you're Muslim and therefore you're beneath contempt? Does it matter at all to take care not to call those tolerant ones guilty by association. This isn't mushy multi-culti "sensitivity-based" stuff. It's basic fairness.

150 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 10:49:37am

BPP (#149)

However, I reject the notion that this is what the entire Muslim world has become, although no doubt such absolutist views are gaining ground at a rapid pace.

Only because there is no evidence to indicate otherwise. I don't want to believe that the entire Muslim world is like this either, but what I want is not important here, the facts are, and until such time as we hear those Muslim voices loudly and emphatically rejecting what the jihadis do in the name of Islam, I am not going to assume anything.

I believe that there are plenty of Muslims who do not fit the above description. Sadly, they are largely drowned out by the radicals.

This is too important and too dangerous an issue for us to indulge ourselves in what we want to believe, we must deal with reality. As much as we'd like to believe that most Muslims are peaceful, what evidence do we have of that?

151 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 10:59:56am

#149 BPP

believe that there are plenty of Muslims who do not fit the above description. Sadly, they are largely drowned out by the radicals. But let's assume that most are happy with Muslim terrorism. What do we say to those who are not? Do we say "too bad, you're Muslim and therefore you're beneath contempt? Does it matter at all to take care not to call those tolerant ones guilty by association. This isn't mushy multi-culti "sensitivity-based" stuff. It's basic fairness.

First, as I said in the orginal quote (and elsewhere many times), there were good Germans. And yet, they, too died in WWII just as did the bad Germans. Unfortunately, when shooting begins it is difficult if not impossible to just kill the bad guys. So, it is not that your putative good Moslem is beneath contempt, but that if things continue to develop in the direction they have been going, he and she will be killed, too. It has nothing to do with guilt by association. Mere geographic proximitry might be enough.

Having said that, your putative good Moslem will have a big hill to climb to prove to the rest of the world (and especially to me) that he or she really is good: I.e., really subscribes to our (superior) Western ideas of individual autonomy, freedom, respect for the individual. These alleged good Moslems must prove that they believe in freedom to choose one's religion and to change one's religion. They will have to reject large swaths of their Koran. They will have to show they are not interested at all in pushing Islam as a poltical solution and they will have to show the world that they will sacrifice themselves for these ideals, as others in the West have, when events force these choices on us.

So far, the putative moderate Moslem is a rare bird, indeed. The three leaders your site are tiny compared to the mass of (what I believe to be) the seething hatreds of the masses. As for your choices: Modern Turkey caps a lid on Islam by severly restricting it; Jordan is ruled by a tiny minority monarchy over a 60%Palestinian (and virulently Jew-hating) populace. In Pakistan, the President is indeed an odd man, since most of his country is rapidly lurching toward extremism.

Again, it the battle is theirs to continue and ours to end.

152 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 11:31:22am

#150 zulubaby

As much as we'd like to believe that most Muslims are peaceful, what evidence do we have of that?

I accept that if you go by public statements and activism, then forces of intolerance are drowning out forces of tolerance. We rarely if ever see demonstrations against radical Islam, even in countries whose governments oppose it. But I believe there is a "silent majority" for tolerance and co-existence. As you say, my belief counts for nothing, and I haven't seen any reputable data on Muslim public opinion. But whether the proportion of tolerant Muslims is 20%, 50% or 75%, it's in our interest to encourage them. We won't do that by talking of annihilating Muslim, nuking Muslims etc.

#151 Seymour Paine

Having said that, your putative good Moslem will have a big hill to climb to prove to the rest of the world (and especially to me) that he or she really is good: I.e., really subscribes to our (superior) Western ideas of individual autonomy, freedom, respect for the individual.

Is that really the test? What do you say to the traditional Muslim in a place like Egypt who may or may not like the West or may or may not like Jews but basically wants to be left alone and wants to get on with his life and doesn't support violence. What do you say to that person? Is non-violence enough? Or does this person have to reject their whole culture and subscribe to Western values? This is important because I would guess that the above description could fit most of the Muslim world.

153 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 12:09:00pm

#152, BPP

You ask a very humane and touching question: what do you say to the Muslim who may not like Jews, but who doesn't want to exterminate them either and just wants to live his life in peace?
I think Seymour Paine has replied to that on one level, but let me add another. Nothing, because--unfortunately--it doesn't work that way. What would you have said to, say, a nurse in Bamberg in 1939: no interest in solving the "Jewish question," no interest in Lebensraum in the East, no interest in revenge for the humiliation of Versailles--a private German citizen trying to live her life as well as she could. But the world is not one big town meeting or forum on the air, and your Egyptian Muslim and the nurse in Bamberg get caught up in the currents of history to which they may have contributed little or nothing. You cannot expect, of either, to risk life and livelihood by going against those ambitious and/or violent enough (in ideology and action) to have seized control of the country.
I'm sure you've seen pictures of little girls in Hamburg, four-year-olds, burnt beyond recognition during the British firebombing. What would have said to her before the raid, or to her surviving sister afterwards? "This is what you get for letting Hitler come to power and slaughter millions?" That might have applied to millions of Germans, but not to all. There's never been an answer to your question, except the laments by poets.

154 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 12:44:08pm

#153 observer

What an eloquent and excellent reply!

155 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 12:52:22pm

#154, Seymour Paine

Thanks--very nice of you. I think BPP is troubled by this, as most decent human beings are. I do wish our little exchanges on LGF could develop into a roar, but it's not likely to be.

156 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 12:55:03pm

#153 observer

I agree there is nothing literally to say to those people who are innocently trying to get on with their lives. The reference to ordinary Germans is an apt one. What would it have taken to rouse the German population to resist the takeover of their country by the Nazis? Perhaps it would have been impossible because no one knew at the time that what Nazism was. There was no precedent. But now there is a precendent.

Bartov is right. Some people mean what they say even if what they say is unbelievable. That's why it's necessary now to show that it's violent extremism we oppose, not Islam per se. Why fan the flames of hate? The more we lump all Muslims into one category and don't recognize the differences among them, the more we strengthen the forces of darkness that feed on conflict. What's more, by making those generalizations, we stoop to their level of thinking!

This is not an excuse to do nothing and just suck your thumb and worry about offending people, but it is important.

157 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:22:35pm

BPP (#156)

Why fan the flames of hate?

They hate us, the fact that we live and breathe is enough to "fan the flames of hate". You're not understanding who this enemy is. What should we be doing differently? If the Muslims weren't hell-bent on killing us all I can assure you I wouldn't give them a second thought. I don't care how they choose to live their lives, I honestly don't -- it's when they start interfering with mine that it becomes my concern.

158 ploome  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:26:26pm

156 BPP .regarding

What would it have taken to rouse the German population to resist the takeover of their country by the Nazis? Perhaps it would have been impossible because no one knew at the time that what Nazism was. There was no precedent. But now there is a precendent.

precedent.? what precedent....?these people dont see any precedent!

from a Teacher Education Forum in the UK

[Link: educationforum.ipbhost.com...]

Andy Walker Posted: Jan 28 2004, 09:04 PM

QUOTE (austen @ Jan 28 2004, 08:42 PM)
And how can the same people who, didn't see anti-semitism in the 30's, have any idea about anti-semitism in the 21st century.

he says

I hate to sound flippant but wouldn't they be terribly old by now?

It is just plain odd to suggest, as I think you are doing, that todays Europeans are responsible for the sins of their great grandfathers. I, for instance, feel no more responsible for say the abuses of the British Empire in India than I do for the liberation of Nazi Germany .... why should I? It wasn't me.

I agree with you entirely about the need to teach the Holocaust in the context of a long history of anti semitism. I am sure there are no serious historians who do any differently.

I find it both hugely frustrating and ultimately pointless to attempt to debate with someone who appears to believe that any criticism of current Israeli policy makes one an anti-semite and on a par with Nazis. It does rather lend the Israeli government an intellectual carte blanche to do what they like.

Genocide, hatred and racism are human problems and not exclusively "European" problems. To think otherwise is an act of utmost denial and projection. It would be bad enough of course if there had been only one example of genocide in human history. The fact that it recurs so often in so many different contexts points to the true lesson of studying such subject matter - viz. that all human beings are capable of the most atrocious crimes if they allow themselves to prejudge, discriminate and value other groups as somehow less worthy than themselves. From this knowledge springs real tolerance, which is why I believe it is essential that the Holocaust along with other appalling chapters in human history be taught sensitively and intelligently in schools.

..........its 'yes BUT'....read the rest of the comments

159 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:33:31pm

What about Minister Mahathir's repulsively anti-Semitic speech and the standing ovation that he received for it? We cannot afford to ignore these things.

160 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:37:38pm
We must respect these Islamic bigots enough to take their threats at face value. We must look at their intentions and soberly assess their actions and their capabilities.
When Mahathir defined us as the enemy, he did us a favor. He told us where he and the Islamic world stand, and where they intend to go. Forewarned, as they say, is forearmed.
161 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 1:47:50pm
162 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:04:18pm

#159 ploome #159 zulubaby

precedent.? what precedent....?these people dont see any precedent!

My point is that WE see the precedent. WE see that hate can lead to genocide. WE see, as Bartov points out, that sometimes when people talk of annihilation and such, they mean what they say. The difference between now and the 1930s is that we recognize the precendent and we know that we mustn't sit back and do nothing. That's why sites like LGF are important. I am just concerned that we not make the situation worse by lumping all muslims into a category of violent haters.

Suppose that now 50% of Muslims would support terrorism. Then General Boykin makes his statement that Muslims pray to a false God or whatever he said. This gets used by radicals to recruit, preach etc. so that now 55% support terrorism. Aren't we worse off now? Maybe that 5% would have turned radical anyway. Who knows? But surely common sense says that we didn't help the situation.

They hate us, the fact that we live and breathe is enough to "fan the flames of hate". You're not understanding who this enemy is.

I disagree. SOME hate us because we live and breathe. Others like us and still others don't give a shit one way or another. It's those proportions that we need to watch. Take Iran. The conventioal wisdom is that the governments hate us but a lot of the population is pro-American. We need to do things that strengthen them against the mad mullahs.

Mahathir is vile scum and to explain away his speech or excuse it a la Krugman is truly despicable. No argument from me there.

163 Maine's Michael  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:10:51pm
This goal is sought by fighting "for equality and then for superiority" in domestic policies, whereas in foreign policy the Jews will "hurl [other peoples] into wars with one another, and thus gradually--with the help of the power of money and propaganda--become their masters."


So says Hitler. I guess Mahathir must have had a copy of the original translation.

As a side note, it's an interesting study in human psychology that Hitler, the Champion of Racial and Moral Purity and defender of Pure Uncorrupted Germanic Culture, required young women to defecate on him on a regular basis.

164 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:20:00pm

BPP, I just wrote a long repsonse to you and then lost the whole thing :-(

165 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:21:33pm
166 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:27:02pm

#161 zulubaby

It's a continuous mystery to me why you and others seem to think I'm some sort of softie when it comes to Islam just because I resist bigelesque larguage.

I read the first article and I agree with everything it says. It says that Islamic anti-Semitism needs to be acknowledged and watched very carefully. Everything I've written is consistent with that. What the article doesn't address, and what is the point of this thread, is the issue of whether there are elements in Muslim society that we can strengthen that will be our allies in countering this or at least not making it worse.

The second one was is a fundamentalist Christian view of Islam as the devil. It goes without saying that - how should I put it - I have issues with that assertion.

167 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:40:33pm

BPP (#166)

You seem to be under the impression that the onus is on us. It isn't. I'm not saying that the west is perfect, beyond criticism or improvement, but for the most part, we're peaceful people, getting on with our lives. For how long are we going to pretend that everything will somehow right itself? We can't simply excuse this as the "lunatic fringe" and hope that the rest are peaceful, lovely people. And even if that were the case, the "radicals" are the ones who are threatening us, they are the ones we have to deal with. The moderate Muslims, while I believe they exist, are nowhere to be seen and I don't feel that it is not up to me to find them -- they must show themselves. Besides, I'm too busy trying to fight off the "radicals" amongst them.

What the article doesn't address, and what is the point of this thread, is the issue of whether there are elements in Muslim society that we can strengthen that will be our allies in countering this or at least not making it worse.

I agree with you on that but where are they!? It's all a pretty dream. Where are these people that we're going to make nice with? That's what I'm trying to get across to you. I'm not disagreeing with you on that score, I'm just trying to get you to realize that we have nothing to work with right now.

The second one was is a fundamentalist Christian view of Islam as the devil. It goes without saying that - how should I put it - I have issues with that assertion.

LOL, sorry about that, I kind of filtered that out. I linked to it in an attempt to illustrate that there is a pattern and we need to pay attention to it. We are not the ones causing the bloodshed.

168 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:41:12pm
repsonse

I hate making typos.

169 ploome  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 2:45:18pm

165 bigel

I need your help here....

[Link: educationforum.ipbhost.com...]

smug antisemites

170 zulubaby  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:00:44pm

Mein Kampf Czech Publisher Gets Sentence

PRAGUE, Czech Republic - The publisher of a Czech translation of Hitler's "Mein Kampf" received a three-year suspended sentence Wednesday on charges of promoting Nazism, Czech radio reported.

It just never ends.

171 ploome  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:02:46pm

Zulubaby

and I surprise myself if I spell it right....:-P

172 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:13:20pm

#167 zulubaby

I agree with you on that but where are they!? It's all a pretty dream. Where are these people that we're going to make nice with?

Some examples:

Students in Iran protesting the mad mullahs
Reformists in the Persian Gulf states liberalizing press restrictions
Egyptian democracy agitators demanding greater government transparency

We could be doing a lot more for these people.

We could be funding educational reform in Pakistan while simultaneously leaning on the Saudis to cut off funds for the madrassas there.

Why do you think we should just throw up our hands and do nothing?

173 Engineer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:31:30pm

BPP

I take it that you have not read the Koran? Islam is just about as bad as the Nazis were. I say just about because they are somewhat willing to allow Jews and other people of the book live as slaves. We don't allow Nazism to exist except in the cracks of society and we probably are going to have to do the same with Islam.

Now it is possible that Islam will reform, but I sure haven't seen any movement in that direction.

174 observer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:55:05pm

#172, BPP

The potential for some reforms, in some Muslim countries may be there, and sure, we should encourage it.
But the bond that ties so many Muslims to their religious leaders' (and their religion's) Jew hatred is a dark, deep, irrational bond. It would take more than education, aid, and even some economic advances to break such a bond. Once again, this thread started out with Hitler, whose bond to his followers was broken only by the total defeat of Germany and his death. And even after all that, the German-Austrians among the Europeans in the lead, sixty years later, in their "distaste" for Jews. (The most recent Italian-sponsored survey.)

175 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 3:59:50pm

#173 Engineer

I take it you have not read the bible? Stoned any adulteresses lately? Sacrificed any goats? Bought any slaves recently?

Every analysis of the Koran that I have read (I have not read it) says that it is full of contradictions and you can read just about anything you want into it.

As for whether Islam is as bad as the Nazis, I think you are betraying a lack of understanding of just what the Nazis were. Jews existed in Muslim lands for hundreds of years. They weren't equal but they weren't subject to pogroms either.

And the notion of relegating Islam to the "cracks of society", please explain what exactly that would look like. Deporting all Muslims? Forcing them to behave a certain way? i'm curious how you're going to relegate a couple of million people to the cracks of society. And how are you going to square that with the values of a society that you would want to live in?

I see a lot of pseudo-macho talk on this thread about nuking them, killing them, warring against them etc. This is the very antithesis of the values that we are supposed to be defending and are under threat from the Muslims themselves. They're the ones who talk about killing. We supposedly stand for the rule of law and tolerance of others etc.

176 Promethea  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:03:36pm

#172 BPP . . .

I'm late to this thread, and you've probably gone, but I'll say it anyway . . .

I understand what you are trying to say. Calling for death to Muslims is not the answer. We need to keep encouraging change in the Islamic world, even though it may be tough to do.

This is going to be a long struggle, so we may as well get used to it.

177 Engineer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:12:48pm

#175 BPP

I take it you have not read the bible? Stoned any adulteresses lately? Sacrificed any goats? Bought any slaves recently?I take it you have not read the bible? Stoned any adulteresses lately? Sacrificed any goats? Bought any slaves recently?

We reformed those parts of our religions, the Muslims have not and say that Islam is perfect and can not change.

And the notion of relegating Islam to the "cracks of society", please explain what exactly that would look like. Deporting all Muslims? Forcing them to behave a certain way? i'm curious how you're going to relegate a couple of million people to the cracks of society. And how are you going to square that with the values of a society that you would want to live in?

The same way we got rid of the Nazis. Kill enough of them until the rest give up. Don't you approve of the society that did that?

178 bigel[deleted]  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:33:17pm
179 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:35:45pm

#177 Engineer

We reformed those parts of our religions, the Muslims have not and say that Islam is perfect and can not change.

Exactly how many countries are governed under the full extent of Shari'a law? I don't know the exact answer but it's a tiny fraction of the Muslim world. To believe the most radical elements that you hear and assume they speak for all Muslims is crazy. Muslims are the primary victims of these zealots for crying out loud!

As for the idea that you are going to "kill enough of then until the rest give up", that's fine for Al Qaeda holdouts in Afghanistan but the idea that you could convince Americans or Europeans to do that at home is just preposterous.

180 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 4:50:03pm

#178 bigel

Bigel! You finally said something correct! Congratulations! I'm very proud of you. You are correct that there were pogroms in Arab lands. I withdraw the comment.

What I should have said was that on average Jewish life in Muslim lands was better than in Christian Europe. This is the consensus of most historians that I've read.

181 Engineer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:04:13pm

BPP

To believe the most radical elements that you hear and assume they speak for all Muslims is crazy.

Check out Friday Sermons in Saudi Mosques You can find the same thing being preached in Iran, Egypt.. wherever you look.

As for the idea that you are going to "kill enough of then until the rest give up", that's fine for Al Qaeda holdouts in Afghanistan but the idea that you could convince Americans or Europeans to do that at home is just preposterous.

Wait until the bombs start going off in the malls. Then it is going to be time to play Cowboys and Muslims.

If you don't think Americans will do this, read some history:

During World War II the strategic bombing of targets without direct military value became a common policy. As capital of Japan, Tokyo was an obvious target as part of an assault on the "basic economic and social fabric of the country".
.......
The first such raid on Tokyo was on the night of February 23-24 when 174 B-29s destroyed around one square mile of the city. Following on that success 334 B-29s raided on the night of March 9-10, dropping around 1,700 tons of bombs. Around 16 square miles of the city were destroyed and over 100,000 people are estimated to have died in the "fire storm".

Bombing of Tokyo in World War II

182 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:34:49pm

#181 Engineer

Wait until the bombs start going off in the malls. Then it is going to be time to play Cowboys and Muslims.

It'd take more than bombs in malls to set off the kind of death spree you're talking about.

But let's suppose you're correct at some point in the future that Muslim extremists set off bombs all over the US. Let's further suppose that those bombs were traced to American Muslims who explicitly proclaim their intention to commit further violence unless Americans convert to Islam. The whole nightmare scanario that some have talked about.

What's the government response? More explicitly, what does the government do to my friend Imran, a Pakistani Ph.D. engineer who lives with his wife and three kids in the suburbs and works as a management consultant. Does he die? Do his kids? Do you go house to house and look for signs of Islam? Do you blow up all mosques? Do you round up American citizens or just immigrants? Do you put them in detention camps?

When you start to think about it a bit, you realize that notions of Comboys and Muslims are mere fantasy.

183 Promethea  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:37:33pm

BPP is describing the many ways that we can try to reform Islam before resorting to all-out warfare. To the posters who are looking for a World War II-style conflagration to start--it would be more productive to think strategically, as Bush & Company seem to be doing.

Sure it's fun to rant on LGF, but I really think it's more productive to discuss ways to change the course of Islamofascism. Check out the Iraqi bloggers, for example. You can see a lot interesting views about what's going on in Iraq.

184 Engineer  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 5:54:20pm

BPP

Do you blow up all mosques? Do you round up American citizens or just immigrants? Do you put them in detention camps?

Ask the Comanches

#183 Promethea

I have posted many times that I think Bush is going about the WOT the right way. I am not all sure that it is going to work, but we have to try before we do it the other way.


I just get tired of people that haven't studied American history and don't understand what Americans do to people that seriously piss them off.

185 Seymour Paine  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:19:08pm

Only someone with a very short life expectancy would stand around while under attack and claim his non-violence is morally superior. We, the U.S. and civilized world, attacked and attacked often without mercy, during WWII and also Korea. I only hope that we still have to guts to be as merciless this time, too.

Sadly, Moslems have infected Europe to a great extent, and the question of whether Europe is lost is still open. But we are not lost. Europe is now weak and useless and the U.S. alone has many times the firepower necessary to prevail against the Moslems, if they want it to come to that.

Frankly, while of course I hope they will reform themselves and become decent people, I doubt they will. They've had 1400 years to do that and haven't. They have been barbaric from the get-go. There never was a "golden age" where all peoples in Moslem countries held hands and swayed back and forth singing Kumbaya. There were frequent and periodic pogroms against the Jews throughout Moslem history in many of their lands.

One poster here referred to the horror of war and the damage it inflicts against innocent people. He talked about a four-year-old German girl burnt after a bombing. She had no choice but her parents, in a general sense, do. Moslem adults endanger their children and themselves by indulging the extreme elements. Listen to the Friday prayers in ALL the major mosques in Moslem countries (from MEMRI). You will be disgusted. Where's the protest? We're listening....

It's true that right now there is no active movement to bomb Moslem countries into oblivion. I believe that with another attack on us and the accompanying joy expressed by Moslems (like at the last one), that situation may change.

186 BPP  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 6:30:40pm

184 Engineer

Come on you can do better than that. The Comanches? That was 19th century. As you say, we've reformed. The firebombing of Tokyo? First of all most Americans didn't know what was going on. Second, we were trying to end a global war that had already cost the lives of almost half a million Americans and around 50 million people worldwide. Third, that episode remains very controversial now.

Sure all bets are off if nukes go off all over the US. But barring that, I think you're off in cloud cuckoo land.

187 hershel  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 9:40:43pm

While I appreciate the points BPP is making, I side more with those who are skeptical of Islamic reform withou bloodshed, or at least a show of force. But there is one criitical factor: whatever extremist tendencies exist in Islam are greatly magnified by the fact that the most extreme faction has enormous oil wealth at its disposal, as well as the status of being the "keepers" of the holy sites in Mecca.

If the wealth and power of the Wahhabis were curbed (or better yet eliminated), we might find out soon enough whether Islam is capable of reform from within.

188 cj74  Wed, Jan 28, 2004 11:32:54pm

"It educates the men in this division for me and promises them Heaven if they fight and are killed in action, a very practical and attractive religion for soldiers."

--Heinrich Himmler, on the virtues of Islam and the Bosnian and Croatian Islamic SS Divisions he formed with the help of Arafat's uncle Husseini in 1943; said divisions murdered more Jews "pound-for-pound" than all others; atrociously, Himmler knew what he was doing when he recruited these animals, whose children's children are still at their ancestors' Jew slaughter...Of course the traitor Clinton sided with these savages against the heroic Serbs in the 90s, the same Serbs who saved Allied fliers and condemned Jews during WW2.

Islam is Nazism couched in Religion, so the ever-tolerant West has problems condemning it, which Muslims take full advantage of. Just as Hitler used the tools of democracy to destroy the Democracy in Germany, the Muslims are at the same deadly game.

And it is the psychotic Left in the West that will be civilizations' final undoing if not forcibly confronted. Two examples: "Illegal (and eventually legal) immigration is the Trojan Horse that is treated as a Sacred Cow." And re: Suicide/Genocide bombings in Israel (of which there is yet another just now): "The sympathetic understanding for suicide bombers creates a climate of tolerance for murder that is cleverly couched in the righteous language of liberation and justice."

"Moderate" Muslims have to look for US! We don't look for them! If they don't find us they will get swept away like the rest of their murder cult in the final reckoning that must come. It's why war is considered a horribly evil, but sometimes necessary thing.

189 Engineer  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 3:02:48am

BPP

This describes Americans better than I can: The Jacksonian Tradition

This should be of interest: The Three Conjectures and the followup: Reader responses to The Three Conjectures

190 BPP  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 4:56:44am

#187 hershel

While I appreciate the points BPP is making, I side more with those who are skeptical of Islamic reform withou bloodshed, or at least a show of force.

I am all for shows of force: I supported the Gulf War in 1991, the Afghanistan War, the Iraq War as well as the wars in the Balkans. I supported the Oslo peace process but have converted to thinking that it was a naive delusion. Contrary to myth, I am no peacenik. I think we need both a carrot and a stick when dealing with the Middle East.

I just think discussions of nuking Islam, killing all Muslims etc. are -besides being morally bankrupt - utterly divorced from reality and are nothing more than teenage-boy combat fantasies by people who have no idea what they're talking about.

191 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 5:17:00am

@ BPP: I agree with your point, not so much because it is morally right but first of all because it is practically right. Just look at this quote from an arbitrary anti-Zionist rant:

Do you know that in fighting the Palestinians Israel has patterned itself on the wrong side of the Warsaw Ghetto uprising? Did you read the quote from the unnamed 'senior IDF official' in Ha'aretz on January 25, 2002, who said "If the mission is to seize a densely populated refugee camp, or to take over the casbah in Nablus. the commander. must first analyze and internalize the lessons of earlier battles, even, however shocking it may sound - how the German army fought in the Warsaw ghetto." Did that shock you as it did me?

Never mind that key IDF tactics in Jenin like bulldozing walls to deal with otherwise unassailable snipers were taken from the Soviet experience of throwing the Nazi armies out of Stalingrad. What matters here is that it is better not to provide the Zionazi delusionists with the silly quotes they're so desperately digging for to have some pseudo-rationalistic pretense for their rants. Who wants to understand the Islamofascists literally, cannot expect from them to understand him in the figurative sense without being inconsistent. And consistence matters most as a precondition to exploit the many inconsistencies of theocracy for changing the situation to the better and challenging the death cultists in a way they don't even understand. Every second Iranian, Arab etc. is under 14. Their rulers are spoilt old men. Bringing democracy into Islam is not about balancing fundamentalists vs moderates. It is a generation conflict.

192 leo (dissident view from Berlin)  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 6:11:14am

# 142, observer:

That he [Avnery] is the most printed Jew in Germany is most depressing--there was, after all, once upon a time a Kurt Tucholsky. Avneri hates evrything about Israel, including its Jewishness.

The subtle irony is that in 2002, Avnery received a price named after Kurt Tucholsky's publisher Carl von Ossietzky. A German government website explains:

Almost every year, Uri Avnery comes to Germany to receive one prize or another, in honour of his efforts to promote peace and respect for human rights; and in his acceptance speeches, he has never failed to speak the truth as he sees it. In 2002, for example, he received the Carl von Ossietzky Prize in Oldenburg, and his speech included the following statement: "All anti-Semitism is abhorrent, regardless of which Semitic people it is directed against; and the new, anti-Arab, anti-Islamic anti-Semitism is just as abhorrent as the old, anti-Jewish variety."

Never mind that the term anti-Semitism never had this meaning since Wilhelm Marr had created it. It was only in 1943 when the Mufti successfully persuaded the Nazis to cease to call themselves anti-Semites because he believed the Arabs to be the true Semitic race. Avnery has nothing better to do than to reaffirm the Mufti's racism, and he does it in the clothes inherited from Carl von Ossietzky. They honor him for providing the anti-Semitic audience the Zionazi allusions to whom it is so desperately addicted, and I guess he will tell he did not know he was feeding a genocidal beast.

However he's a part of the situation, like it or not. When in summer '02 Ha'aretz printed an anti-Avnery piece by Anat Peri, the German embassy complained. If the New Left has achieved anything (besides gay liberation, which it betrayed to Islam after 9/11) then it is the legalization of collaboration. In the cold war this was a major competitive advance of the West which forced the Soviets to stop shooting their dissidents. Now it is an established fact that there is no such thing as treason by people who never got anything classified into their hands, and Mr. Avnery's propaganda must be dealt with in a way consistent with that fact. If in history tragedy repeats as farce, Mr. Avnery might be a burlesque of Lord Haw-Haw.

193 Seymour Paine  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 8:02:39am

The question was posed here of how to respond to a future scenario in which American Moslems set off bombs and declared their intent to continue to bomb unless America converted to Islam. What to do about that nice, peaceful Pakistani engineer and his wife who want to live like the rest of us.

First, before we get to that stage, we halt all (and that is ALL) immigration from Moslem countries with the exception of Christians and Jews (or other non-Moslems). We can couch this in some form or another, but that should be the effect. No Visas for "students", nothing.

Second, eliminate all non-citizen Moslems from the country regardless of their status (green card status). That should definitely cut down on the ones we have to watch.

Third, halt all funding from Moslem countries. That should put a crimp into the Moslem terror center...er....read schools and mosques, since many are funded by the Saudis.

If those future terrorists do set off bombs, our friendly Pakistani and his charming wife and little children will have to more cause to worry about their neighbors than the government, which will have to protect them.

Personally, although for the time being it is impossible politically, I would prefer expelling all Moslems from the U.S. At least then I wouldn't have to get searched ten times getting on a plane.

And if any of that sounds harsh, just come on up to NYC and take a look at that hole in the ground. I want to prevent future holes in our ground. I don't trust Moslems at all. I knew next to nothing about Moslems pre-the-9/11 arab attack on the U.S. I've read extensively since then and what I've read is that they are a dangerous group of people, like the Nazis, with whom they share many values (and as a poster noted above, shared more than values during WWII). If I detected in my extensive reading any, absolutely any mass movement on the part of Moslems to eschew the hate and violence Moslems have spawned, I would certainly revise my views.

And as for your marvellous Pakistani engineer, I believe there was an Arab engineer Mike Hawash now in jail who worked for Intel. He pleaded guilty to terrorism related charges. His friends all thought he was just great. Now the web site, devoted to freeing him has his plea agreement.

194 BPP  Thu, Jan 29, 2004 9:05:48pm

#193 Seymour Paine

I haven't fundamentally changed my views, but on a day like today, when we are witness yet again to the most depraved Arab savagery, I'm not up for spending any more effort right now to try to get people to treat Muslims as individuals.


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