Nashville Rejects ‘English First’ Proposal

US News • Views: 2,637

Voters in Nashville have decisively rejected an ‘English First’ proposal sponsored by the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR):

NASHVILLE, Tenn. – Nashville voters rejected a proposal to make English the mandatory language for all government business, easing fears that the measure could damage the city’s reputation and cost agencies millions in federal funding.

With 100 percent of precincts reporting early Friday morning, unofficial results showed the “English First” proposal losing with about 57 percent of voters against it and 43 percent in favor. Proponents said using one language would have united the city and saved money.

The city would have become the nation’s largest to pass such a measure. Similar measures have passed elsewhere, though business leaders, academics, the city’s mayor and Tennessee Gov. Phil Bredesen opposed the “English First” proposal, which the governor has previously called “mean-spirited.”

And FAIR has an interesting connection to some recent LGF opponents; they’re making alliances with the Belgian fascist group Vlaams Belang: English-first backer tied to alleged hate groups.

The man who founded the Virginia nonprofit paying for the push to make English Nashville’s official language also is behind several organizations that have been labeled hate groups. Dr. John H. Tanton, a retired eye surgeon, started both ProEnglish and the Federation for American Immigration Reform (FAIR).

The Southern Poverty Law Center identified FAIR as a hate group last winter based on its acceptance of $1.2 million from a white supremacist organization, employees’ ties to other such groups and a history of “anti-Latino and anti-Catholic attitudes.”

The Southern Poverty Law Center is a Montgomery, Ala.-based civil rights group that monitors extremist activity. It took a second look at FAIR in 2007 after learning that a senior official of the federation met with leaders of a Belgian political party known for its racist views, said Mark Potok, director of the law center’s Intelligence Project.

“It was fairly shocking that they would have that meeting,” Potok said Monday.

For those of us who’ve been watching their machinations, not shocking at all. Vlaams Belang is pursuing connections among American groups, pundits, and bloggers who are stupid enough to swallow their pretenses, and finding plenty of willing dupes.

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739 comments
1 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:54:43pm

I wonder how much of this that the voters knew.

2 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:55:17pm

Once again this shows that aligning with the wrong people can sabotage a pretty good idea

3 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:55:44pm

I think FAIR barked up the wrong tree here. Nashville has the largets Kurdish population in the nation, and from what I've seen, most Kurds want to thrive as Americans.

4 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:56:36pm

OK...I have another bro who moved to Nashville about 18 years ago. That's cool. Iwent down there in 2002 to move in with my sister. My kids ended up in a school with a POLICE STATION in it! Nashville MEtro has a mini-station IN THE SCHOOL. My kids were like "FUCK THIS I WANNA GO HOME!"

5 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:57:17pm

re: #4 UberInfidel67

OK...I have another bro who moved to Nashville about 18 years ago. That's cool. Iwent down there in 2002 to move in with my sister. My kids ended up in a school with a POLICE STATION in it! Nashville MEtro has a mini-station IN THE SCHOOL. My kids were like "FUCK THIS I WANNA GO HOME!"

It's not just the Grand Ol' Opry any more.

6 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:57:41pm

No Many, Nashville has a large population of immigrants...not all Kurd.

7 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:58:30pm

Similar to the whole anti-Jihad thing, I agree with the policy making English the official language of government business. Why must these respectful causes be conflagrated with the racists and fascists? It's pissing me off.

8 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:58:44pm

I went to my sister's for a few days....all I saw were Escalades and fitty children l,iving in apartments. Nashville is a mess

9 Bloodnok  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:59:06pm

It's those blasted "imaginary fascists" again.

/////

10 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:59:08pm

Anti-Catholic, huh? Wonder if they aren't also in bed with IDers.

11 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 7:59:56pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I think FAIR barked up the wrong tree here. Nashville has the largets Kurdish population in the nation, and from what I've seen, most Kurds want to thrive as Americans.

Same with latinos.

12 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:04pm

I won't go down there anymore. I cannot fathom that people who have no right being here in the first place and prospering while the native (that would be US) suffer by playing by the rules. It sickens me.

13 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:13pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I think FAIR barked up the wrong tree here. Nashville has the largets Kurdish population in the nation, and from what I've seen, most Kurds want to thrive as Americans.

I dig the Kurds. They are like the Israelis of Iraq. Maybe not quite as hated, but definitely in their right minds as a whole. Not that they don't have their own militant problems within but Kuridstan is more of a model of success in the Middle East than Turkey, IMHO.

14 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:18pm

re: #6 UberInfidel67

No Many, Nashville has a large population of immigrants...not all Kurd.

Did I say that all immigrants are Kurds?

15 Dianna  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:28pm

re: #7 CommonCents

Similar to the whole anti-Jihad thing, I agree with the policy making English the official language of government business. Why must these respectful causes be conflagrated with the racists and fascists? It's pissing me off.

Because there are, unfortunately, bigots and fascists who latch onto these sensible, unifying ideas.

It should be noted that most countries who do not enforce a common official tongue become not bilingual, but mute.

16 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:40pm

re: #7 CommonCents

Similar to the whole anti-Jihad thing, I agree with the policy making English the official language of government business. Why must these respectful causes be conflagrated with the racists and fascists? It's pissing me off.

The reason is because some of the people promoting those causes decided to beef up their number by allying themselves with the wrong people. In doing so, they give the left ammo with which to discredit the whole cause.

17 Bloodnok  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:00:43pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

Anti-Catholic, huh? Wonder if they aren't also in bed with IDers.

Can you imagine? Actually it wouldn't surprise me all that much.

18 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:01:18pm

No you did not. I was just mentioning that the immigrant pop of Nashville is more "other" rather than just Kurds. Chill : )

19 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:01:23pm

re: #11 Sharmuta

Same with latinos.

The legals for sure. I'm not too certain about the illegals but, I could be wrong.

20 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:01:32pm

re: #10 Sharmuta

My first reaction on reading that was that it might be a domionist or maybe Baptist thing. They didn't elaborate enough to tell.

21 Oh no...Sand People!  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:01:50pm

re: #15 Dianna

Because there are, unfortunately, bigots and fascists who latch onto these sensible, unifying ideas.

It should be noted that most countries who do not enforce a common official tongue become not bilingual, but mute.

Most efficient way to divide a population.

22 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:01:53pm

re: #12 UberInfidel67

I won't go down there anymore. I cannot fathom that people who have no right being here in the first place and prospering while the native (that would be US) suffer by playing by the rules. It sickens me.

Legal immigrants don't have a right to be here?

23 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:02:18pm

Man, they made a big mistake. Now they can't pursue a good idea.

Poor Nashville people, tarred by European racists in pursuit of keeping the only language spoken within 1000 miles their language of record.

24 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:02:21pm

Charles, do you know if the link between FAIR and Vlaams Belang was an issue or was it voted down because people saw it as unfair...like the governor?

25 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:02:42pm

If you go to bed with smelly dogs and you end up smelling like them, and the fleas just never give you a break afterwards.
Serves him right.

26 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:02:54pm

re: #13 CommonCents

I dig the Kurds. They are like the Israelis of Iraq. Maybe not quite as hated, but definitely in their right minds as a whole. Not that they don't have their own militant problems within but Kuridstan is more of a model of success in the Middle East than Turkey, IMHO.

Christopher Hitchens had an article in Vainity Fair a while back about Kurdistan. From the picture he painted, it sounds like a marvelous place.

27 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:04:05pm

re: #22 MandyManners
I have no problem with legal immigrants. Also "US" means legal citizens.

28 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:04:12pm

re: #24 jorline

Charles, do you know if the link between FAIR and Vlaams Belang was an issue or was it voted down because people saw it as unfair...like the governor?

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.

29 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:04:58pm

re: #19 MandyManners

There are a lot of latinos in my area- they are all hard working, family folks. If they're here illegally, then I have a problem with that. Otherwise- they are the sort of immigrant I would prefer to have in America as opposed to islamists uninterested in assimilating.

30 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:05:02pm

re: #26 MandyManners

Christopher Hitchens had an article in Vainity Fair a while back about Kurdistan. From the picture he painted, it sounds like a marvelous place.

I was thinking of one of Michael Yon's older stories about his time in K'stan. They seemed so Western in comparison to the folks just south of the "border".

31 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:06:05pm

re: #15 Dianna
I don't know about that, during mot of my travels overseas a big portion of the population spoke English along with their mother tongue... even in France.
It wont hurt us to have our children learn a second language.

32 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:06:29pm

re: #14 MandyManners

Did I say that all immigrants are Kurds?

I have been to Kurdistan. They are easy-going people, like to avoid hassles, easy to get along with. And they really do want to be Americans. (ie, free and fun-loving!)

33 UberInfidel67  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:06:59pm

It's late...thank you all for the conversation...I love discussing world events with ya'll...the Horde rules. See ya on the flip side....sleep in peace folks : )

34 Dianna  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:07:35pm

re: #31 shanec99

No, it wouldn't. But it's a bad, bad notion not to have an official tongue, one that binds people together as having a common understanding.

35 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:08:19pm

I'm not impressed with the need for a national language...more to the point I'd like to see a voluntary National Attitiude that favors American sovereignty, American Justice and a universal love for the Dallas Cowboys....a perfect world

36 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:08:52pm

re: #28 Charles

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.

You never know where some Lizards live.

37 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:09:05pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Here a senior fellow at the DI quotes a FAIR study:

[Link: archive.newsmax.com...]

That's nothing, though. I'm going to keep looking.

38 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:09:10pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

There are a lot of latinos in my area- they are all hard working, family folks. If they're here illegally, then I have a problem with that. Otherwise- they are the sort of immigrant I would prefer to have in America as opposed to islamists uninterested in assimilating.

Ditto.

39 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:09:11pm

I was in Singapore on business last year, where the official language is English. Two of my colleagues asked me what the official language of the US was. When I told them we didn't have an official language they looked at me like I had two heads. I explained that it would be racist if we labeled English the official language of the US. They then looked at me like I had three heads.

40 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:09:20pm

Having English as the language of government would likely increase the customer service levels in most gov. offices. Instead of hiring completely unskilled people whose qualification is speaking multiple languages and replacing them with a skilled employee from the other 99% of the population would increase productivity and through put on the 95% of customers. It makes good business sense to me. Higher productivity means less cost which leads to less taxes.

41 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:09:39pm

re: #30 CommonCents

I was thinking of one of Michael Yon's older stories about his time in K'stan. They seemed so Western in comparison to the folks just south of the "border".

Too bad they cannot have their own nation.

42 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:10:33pm

re: #32 Wishing

I have been to Kurdistan. They are easy-going people, like to avoid hassles, easy to get along with. And they really do want to be Americans. (ie, free and fun-loving!)

What separates them from many other Iraqis?

43 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:10:37pm

re: #35 albusteve

I'm not impressed with the need for a national language...more to the point I'd like to see a voluntary National Attitiude that favors American sovereignty, American Justice and a universal love for the Dallas Cowboys Chicago Bears....a perfect world

fixed

44 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:11:02pm

For the next 4 years, the Official Language of the Federal Government is newspeak

45 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:11:27pm

re: #35 albusteve

I'm not impressed with the need for a national language...more to the point I'd like to see a voluntary National Attitiude that favors American sovereignty, American Justice and a universal love for the Dallas Cowboys cheerleaders....a perfect world

Slight adjustment and I'm with ya.

46 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:11:31pm

I went with my daughter to the local public health offices last year. On the wall was a poster proclaiming that translators would be made available at no charge for benefit of non-English-speaking clients. IIRC, it listed something like 32 languages.

I think that's a kinda nutty thing to do, let alone boast about.

47 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:11:39pm

re: #41 MandyManners

Too bad they cannot have their own nation.

I think they would like to, and of all the groups in Iraq, they are the most likely to be a success at doing just that. The Turks of course are concerned that they will make a land-grab clear to Diyarbikur.

48 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:12:20pm

re: #28 Charles

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.


and good for them too.
I remember as a young immigrant years and years ago, because I pronounced my words a little differently than did many others how I was made to feel like I were less than intelligent.
Many people used to say to me, go back to where you came from, or go and learn English, all because I spoke with a Jamaican accent.
There were times when these people made America seem less than welcoming to a young immigrant who wore the country's uniform in her defense.
A pox on all the anti immigrant racists who make those of us who aspire to walk in the footsteps of immigrants who made America great feel unwelcome.

49 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:12:28pm

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

fixed

you redo my post means war...you hip to that notion?....surrender now is your best option...

50 freedombilly  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:13:14pm

re: #34 Dianna

OT:

Dianna, how is best friend doing? I have not seen you on a thread for a couple of weeks and they have been in my thoughts.

51 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:13:22pm

re: #46 abolitionist

I went with my daughter to the local public health offices last year. On the wall was a poster proclaiming that translators would be made available at no charge for benefit of non-English-speaking clients. IIRC, it listed something like 32 languages.

Hogwash. No charge to the individual NOT paying taxes.

52 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:13:51pm

Well, you snuck upstairs on me... I didn't know there was a new thread, and here I was talking to myself downstairs, LOL!
Well, here's from "downstairs":

re: #425 Sharmuta

That's exactly why I'm a donor. Glad I could help you, and someday I'll be able to help someone else.
****
You will. People have no idea how valuable it is to be able to see until they lose it. They don't know what it's like to have to ask everyone to take you anyplace- even the dr or the store, and try to fit it into THEIR schedules out of the goodness of their hearts. You have no idea what it's like looking for a shelf-stocker in the store to help you see what you're buying. ...or taking a HUGE magnifying glass along just to see if you're buying soup or vegetables. You can't watch tv... just listen to it. You can't read, and if you use the internet you have to have a huge adapter on it to magnify things so huge that a few words take up the whole screen. That takes a lot of time to read through, but your eyes get too tired to do very much of it. Now, with my contact lenses, I really can see 20/20 in both eyes. Unfortunately, I have some kind of problem with my stitches in my eyes today; I went to the dr because I thought one of them had popped; but it wasn't.... it was just a HUGE abrasion in my eyes that hurts like that dickens, so I can't wear my contacts. My vision, unfortunately, can't be corrected to even 20/80 with glasses, but with hard contacts it can be corrected. It's just the pits when I can't wear them for one reason or another. Actually, if you click on my name you'll see one of the websites I have. I own a free Yahoo support group for people who have the same disease I had.... and people join it on the brink of suicide because not only are they going blind, but each of their kids has a 50% chance of inheriting it from them. It's a real downer. It's donors like you who give us hope! We have a new chance at life again like normal people! Thank you!

53 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:14:04pm

re: #34 Dianna

No, it wouldn't. But it's a bad, bad notion not to have an official tongue, one that binds people together as having a common understanding.


Our founding fatherds never thought it was necessary, infact Jefferson, Franklyn and Adams all spoke many languages.
We should look to our founding fathers for guidance.

54 gman  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:14:57pm

Tanton isn't just against immigration, he's also one of those zero population growth nuts.

He helped establish the Little Traverse Conservancy that has protected more than 37,000 acres (150 km2) in northern Michigan.[9] His belief that continued human population growth was a large factor in America's environmental problems led him to chair the National Sierra Club Population Committee (1971-1974)[citation needed] and to lead Zero Population Growth (ZPG),[citation needed] where he served one term as its president (1975-1977) and was a member of its national board (1973-1978).

55 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:15:30pm

re: #48 shanec99

and good for them too.
I remember as a young immigrant years and years ago, because I pronounced my words a little differently than did many others how I was made to feel like I were less than intelligent.
Many people used to say to me, go back to where you came from, or go and learn English, all because I spoke with a Jamaican accent.
There were times when these people made America seem less than welcoming to a young immigrant who wore the country's uniform in her defense.
A pox on all the anti immigrant racists who make those of us who aspire to walk in the footsteps of immigrants who made America great feel unwelcome.

I'm not against immigrants or those speaking with accents, or even those who don't speak English. My issue is why is it the goverment's responsibility to provide the translator to someone who doesn't speak the language? BYOT

56 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:15:32pm

I just lost an entire post, answering the Q about what makes Kurds different.

Basically, language and cultural history. They are not semitic and have adapted to the Arabic language. But they do have their own language and their own cultural history, seperate from the sunnis and shi'ites.

57 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:16:33pm

re: #51 CommonCents

Hogwash. No charge to the individual NOT paying taxes.

EXACTLY !

58 Dianna  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:16:57pm

re: #50 freedombilly

OT:

Dianna, how is best friend doing? I have not seen you on a thread for a couple of weeks and they have been in my thoughts.

She's doing great - I had lunch with her yesterday, and she's quite sensibly not going back to work until February.

Thank you for asking.

59 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:17:36pm

re: #28 Charles

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.

Please keep us updated about the "something rancid". I lived in far south TX for thirteen years where if you didn't know Spanish you were screwed. It was definitely perceived as a part of Mexico...not the US. I can take you to restaurants and stores where no one speaks English...fortunately my wife is bi-lingual.

60 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:17:45pm

re: #58 Dianna

She's doing great - I had lunch with her yesterday, and she's quite sensibly not going back to work until February.

Thank you for asking.

Did you cuss out the no-good sister?

61 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:18:49pm

re: #49 albusteve

you redo my post means war...you hip to that notion?....surrender now is your best option...

I do not know how to surrender, nor am I willing to learn. If you think you can teach me, you are welcome to try.

62 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:18:59pm

We could all learn Latin,

or Esperanto.

63 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:19:34pm

Let's print all documents in esperanto.

64 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:19:37pm

re: #55 CommonCents

I'm not against immigrants or those speaking with accents, or even those who don't speak English. My issue is why is it the goverment's responsibility to provide the translator to someone who doesn't speak the language? BYOT


Government has a role in ensuring that all people are provided every opportunity to realize their full potential. If someone is poor and cannot go to English as a Second Language classes and is unable to communicate well, then the nation suffers from not being able to benefit from the potential that person can provide to enriching his or her community.

65 Charles Johnson  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:19:42pm

More about John Tanton: The Teflon Nativists.

66 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:19:56pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I do not know how to surrender, nor am I willing to learn. If you think you can teach me, you are welcome to try.

Classes are available in Paris.

67 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:20:16pm

Canada too!

Imagine !

Espersnto in Toronto !

68 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:20:19pm

re: #61 Dark_Falcon

I do not know how to surrender, nor am I willing to learn. If you think you can teach me, you are welcome to try.

good response...I'll reconsider

69 Bloodnok  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:20:20pm

re: #44 Shug

For the next 4 years, the Official Language of the Federal Government is newspeak the language of Mordor, which I will not utter here.

70 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:21:36pm

re: #64 shanec99

Government has a role in ensuring that all people are provided every opportunity to realize their full potential. If someone is poor and cannot go to English as a Second Language classes and is unable to communicate well, then the nation suffers from not being able to benefit from the potential that person can provide to enriching his or her community.

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to teach them English than to hire translators for them? I mean... either way, we're paying for it. It's like that old saying "give a man a fish and you feed him one meal; teach how to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime" or something like that (I'm no good at remembering the saying word for word).

71 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:22:10pm

re: #68 albusteve

good response...I'll reconsider

you are a wise man, and it is not bad to be a Cowboys fan.

72 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:22:46pm

As someone who employs many hispanic people, I observe a disturbing trend; a great percentage of the newer immigrants are refusing to learn english and this seems to be associated with a very radical leftist political bent. IMO, this leads to poor assimilation. This is not benign. BHO realizes this and will capitalize on this, opening our borders to flood us.

73 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:23:08pm

I have kin in Nashville and have gone there for decades watching my niece and nephew grow and navigate through the different ethnic groups in TN I probably over-reacted to this subject.

It just disturbs me that Southerners are so easily tarred with the racist brush.

74 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:02pm

re: #73 Shay4l

I have kin in Nashville and have gone there for decades watching my niece and nephew grow and navigate through the different ethnic groups in TN I probably over-reacted to this subject.

It just disturbs me that Southerners are so easily tarred with the racist brush.

Southerners? How about everyone who doesn't agree with "The One"? That includes some of us "northerners" who, apparently, are too racial to see "eye to eye" with The Messiah....

75 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:03pm

re: #65 Charles

More about John Tanton: The Teflon Nativists.

"Undocumented"? Why can't the writer use the word "illegal"?

76 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:03pm

Yes, teach them English... agreed.
But until they have mastered the language they need translators. How do they get health care if the cant comminicate, register their kids for school.
Both translators and educators are important to help them to assimilate. It is not one or the other.

77 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:20pm

re: #69 Bloodnok

Then I will:

Three Rings for the Elven-kings under the sky,
Seven for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of stone,
Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them,
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the Shadows lie.

78 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:57pm

re: #70 KarenWI

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to teach them English than to hire translators for them? I mean... either way, we're paying for it. It's like that old saying "give a man a fish and you feed him one meal; teach how to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime" or something like that (I'm no good at remembering the saying word for word).

Older folks might not be able to learn.

79 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:24:57pm

re: #53 shanec99

Our founding fatherds never thought it was necessary, infact Jefferson, Franklyn and Adams all spoke many languages.
We should look to our founding fathers for guidance.

I agree with the value of learning other languages, but I also note that our founding fathers chose only one language in which to write the Constitution. Common language helps bind a country together; without it, you end up with a Balkanized society. I posit that Quebec, for example, would not have a successionist movement if their citizens spoke English, even if the majority of them were of French descent.

80 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:25:21pm

re: #64 shanec99

Government has a role in ensuring that all people are provided every opportunity to realize their full potential. If someone is poor and cannot go to English as a Second Language classes and is unable to communicate well, then the nation suffers from not being able to benefit from the potential that person can provide to enriching his or her community.

Then local churches, schools or other non-profits can run free ESL classes. Not have thousands of translators in state government offices and have to print all government documents in multi language format.

Your position seems to me, to infer that the government is provider of the pursuit of happiness. The government's role should be to allow us to achieve based on our abilities. By not providing a service, they are not restricting your ability to excel, they are there to make sure someone else doesn't.

81 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:25:44pm

re: #71 Dark_Falcon

you are a wise man, and it is not bad to be a Cowboys fan.

I am one but probably not the other....

82 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:25:48pm

re: #76 shanec99

Yes, teach them English... agreed.
But until they have mastered the language they need translators. How do they get health care if the cant comminicate, register their kids for school.
Both translators and educators are important to help them to assimilate. It is not one or the other.

The problem is, of course, until we make English the "national language" and make it mandatory for them to learn English, many of them just aren't bothering to do it. That leaves the continuing expense (that we are paying for) of having translators all the time, way past the time that would have taken to learn the language if they had gone along with doing that.

83 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:25:59pm

re: #72 ted

Most of the earlier immigrants to the U.S. learned English, left their closed neighborhoods, and helped contribute to the 'melting pot' mixed cultural identity of America. This was part of our strength as a country, and is not beyond the capability of newer immigrants.

84 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:26:04pm

re: #76 shanec99

"Both translators and educators are important to help them to assimilate. It is not one or the other."

Says who?

Prove It..........

85 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:26:16pm

re: #8 UberInfidel67

I went to my sister's for a few days....all I saw were Escalades and fitty children l,iving in apartments. Nashville is a mess

Nashville is like any other large city ...there are areas that are maybe not as desirable to you as others ...for you to say the city is a mess is not accurate except maybe by your standards ....and by all means then don't come back if you feel uncomfortable ...I have a place here for when I need to work in the city ...I don't vote here and really only became aware of the vote in the last week as I have been busy with business ...outside of the most urban areas of the city it is a very conservative place ...I seriously doubt that very many of the schools have police precincts in them ... if the person behind the English only movement is involved with a racist group I doubt many were aware of that fact ... if they were it got them nowhere and in the future I hope they are exposed ...

86 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:26:22pm

re: #79 ConservativeAtheist

I agree with the value of learning other languages, but I also note that our founding fathers chose only one language in which to write the Constitution. Common language helps bind a country together; without it, you end up with a Balkanized society. I posit that Quebec, for example, would not have a successionist movement if their citizens spoke English, even if the majority of them were of French descent.

Look at Belgium, too.

87 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:26:28pm

re: #70 KarenWI

Wouldn't it be more cost effective to teach them English than to hire translators for them? I mean... either way, we're paying for it. It's like that old saying "give a man a fish and you feed him one meal; teach how to fish and you've fed him for a lifetime" or something like that (I'm no good at remembering the saying word for word).

Teach him to fish and he'll get mercury poisoning. How cruel are you!?
/

88 Dianna  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:26:41pm

re: #60 Wishing

Did you cuss out the no-good sister?

Not yet. But if she starts sponging again, you may believe I'm going to.

89 ciaospirit  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:12pm

re: #31 shanec99

I don't know about that, during mot of my travels overseas a big portion of the population spoke English along with their mother tongue... even in France.
It wont hurt us to have our children learn a second language.

Kids have the chance to learn another language if they want to, but nobody should tell them they have to.

90 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:37pm

Bilinguall Ed is a total failure.

91 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:38pm

Well at least you folks don't have two official languages to deal with. Otherwise you would have to deal with what goes on in Quebec a lot:

Quebec City ski event must have French name, sovereignists tell Red Bull.

/and don't ask me about Quebecs bill 101. . . . .

92 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:41pm

re: #76 shanec99

Yes, teach them English... agreed.
But until they have mastered the language they need translators. How do they get health care if the cant comminicate, register their kids for school.
Both translators and educators are important to help them to assimilate. It is not one or the other.


Language
Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language. Applicants exempt from this requirement are those who on the date of filing:

have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 15 years or more and are over 55 years of age;
have been residing in the United States subsequent to a lawful admission for permanent residence for periods totaling 20 years or more and are over 50 years of age; or
have a medically determinable physical or mental impairment, where the impairment affects the applicant’s ability to learn English.

Learn it

Know it

Live it

93 Scion9  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:44pm

re: #64 shanec99

Government has a role in ensuring that all people are provided every opportunity to realize their full potential.

Not according to the Constitution I've read. You are provided with justice, domestic tranquility, and general welfare. Any potential you hope to realize is entirely on your back. The government providing 'every opportunity' to realize one's 'full potential' is certainly leaps and bounds beyond 'general welfare'.

94 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:44pm

re: #79 ConservativeAtheist

I agree with the value of learning other languages, but I also note that our founding fathers chose only one language in which to write the Constitution. Common language helps bind a country together; without it, you end up with a Balkanized society. I posit that Quebec, for example, would not have a successionist movement if their citizens spoke English, even if the majority of them were of French descent.

I agree that we should have a common language to bind us, but we should not say that common language should be the only language we utter.
Some people are unable to communicate clearly in English at first, and given time they will learn, the translators are a bridge until they learn.

95 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:27:53pm

re: #78 MandyManners

Older folks might not be able to learn.

Well.... the question comes to mind why are older folks coming here? They aren't coming here to work, then, are they? If they are too old to learn English they are too old to contribute to our work force (as some like to say they are doing). Are they coming here to get free healthcare, free food, and free housing by any chance?

96 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:28:08pm

re: #75 MandyManners

"Undocumented"? Why can't the writer use the word "illegal"?

I'm certainly no White Supremist but I might be a Nativist...can the two be separated?..jus askin

97 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:29:31pm

re: #83 jaunte

Most of the earlier immigrants to the U.S. learned English, left their closed neighborhoods, and helped contribute to the 'melting pot' mixed cultural identity of America. This was part of our strength as a country, and is not beyond the capability of newer immigrants.

Exactly. For example, when the Irish came here they came here to become AMERICANS... not to make America a little Ireland. We didn't have Irish-American, and African-American back then; we just had AMERICANS. When did we lose our national identity?

98 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:29:32pm

re: #65 Charles

More about John Tanton: The Teflon Nativists.

Eugenics! Lovely.

99 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:29:48pm

re: #69 Bloodnok

I had to upding you for the Tolkien reference. I am *such* a sucker for a Tolkien reference.

100 looking closely  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:29:50pm

re: #28 Charles

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.

No one wants to be accused of being racist, or a redneck, and this vote-down probably came down to that.

Its not entirely clear to me WHY having official gov't business conducted in a standardized language is racist, but BOY is it!

101 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:29:57pm

re: #95 KarenWI

Well.... the question comes to mind why are older folks coming here? They aren't coming here to work, then, are they? If they are too old to learn English they are too old to contribute to our work force (as some like to say they are doing). Are they coming here to get free healthcare, free food, and free housing by any chance?

Hey! Let's just chase the old coots out. Who wants 'em anyway?

102 Cygnus  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:30:01pm

re: #44 Shug

For the next 4 years, the Official Language of the Federal Government is newspeak

Doubleplus ungood!

103 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:30:15pm

re: #86 MandyManners

Look at Belgium, too.

Indeed.

104 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:30:35pm

re: #96 albusteve

I'm certainly no White Supremist but I might be a Nativist...can the two be separated?..jus askin

Why not?

105 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:30:42pm

re: #90 ted

Mr. Ed, the bilingual horse.

Neigh, Nay.

106 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:30:58pm

Borders
language
Culture

107 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:31:09pm

re: #97 KarenWI

"When did we lose our national identity?"

January 20th, 2009....12:01pm.

108 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:31:09pm

re: #95 KarenWI

Well.... the question comes to mind why are older folks coming here? They aren't coming here to work, then, are they? If they are too old to learn English they are too old to contribute to our work force (as some like to say they are doing). Are they coming here to get free healthcare, free food, and free housing by any chance?

I say older folks are welcome in America...if they have difficulty I will help them out....free food is an American tradition

109 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:31:32pm

re: #87 CommonCents

Teach him to fish and he'll get mercury poisoning. How cruel are you!?
/

Hey, don't mess with our Wisconsin traditions here, LOL! Every friday fish.... doesn't matter what religion you are, every restaurant and every school on friday has fish. Friday without a fish lunch or fish dinner wouldn't be friday here. Think that's why Wisconsin voted The One in? Because our brains had mercury poisoning? ROFLOL....

110 Bloodnok  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:31:34pm

Good night Lizards! Bonne nuit! Laila tov! Godabed!

111 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:31:49pm

re: #97 KarenWI

Exactly. For example, when the Irish came here they came here to become AMERICANS... not to make America a little Ireland. We didn't have Irish-American, and African-American back then; we just had AMERICANS. When did we lose our national identity?

I'm not sure who were the first hyphenated americans. My earliest recollection was the African-American label, but that may have just been my location.

112 ciaospirit  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:16pm

re: #29 Sharmuta

There are a lot of latinos in my area- they are all hard working, family folks. If they're here illegally, then I have a problem with that. Otherwise- they are the sort of immigrant I would prefer to have in America as opposed to islamists uninterested in assimilating.

Not so much in Ohio. The Hispanic community has segregated themselves to primarily one area. They speak mostly Spanish at their stores and businesses. Some teachers are complaining that their Hispanic students refuse to learn English, claiming they don't want to and they don't need it.

113 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:18pm

re: #105 Ojoe

Mr. Ed, the bilingual horse.

Neigh, Nay.

I used to love Mr. Ed.

114 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:20pm

re: #110 Bloodnok

Buona notte

Sogni d'oro

115 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:21pm

re: #80 CommonCents

Then local churches, schools or other non-profits can run free ESL classes. Not have thousands of translators in state government offices and have to print all government documents in multi language format.

Your position seems to me, to infer that the government is provider of the pursuit of happiness. The government's role should be to allow us to achieve based on our abilities. By not providing a service, they are not restricting your ability to excel, they are there to make sure someone else doesn't.


No, my position is that goverments role is to act in a way so that it does not hinder the progress of its citizens. Putting up barriers to effective communication hinders understanding, building communities and commerce. Government should not be doing that.
Government should encourage non English speakers to learn, and provide translators to those who have not yet mastered the language. Effective communication is frequently the key to understanding and reducing tension in a community.

116 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:40pm

re: #113 ted

Now you're talkin'.

117 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:32:52pm

re: #108 albusteve

I say older folks are welcome in America...if they have difficulty I will help them out....free food is an American tradition

Some cultures center their nuclear families around the families of origin, and rely on their older relations to take care of the house and the kids while the younger adults go out to work.

118 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:02pm

re: #79 ConservativeAtheist

I agree with the value of learning other languages, but I also note that our founding fathers chose only one language in which to write the Constitution. Common language helps bind a country together; without it, you end up with a Balkanized society. I posit that Quebec, for example, would not have a successionist movement if their citizens spoke English, even if the majority of them were of French descent.

I agree with you on this one. IMO its a virtue for individuals to be multilingual, but a curse for a nation to be so. A common language is necessary for everyone to be engaged in the economy and in the national dialog. Printing every government document in 32 languages or hiring legions of translators is not very cost effective and just a band-aid for a bigger issue.

119 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:08pm

re: #104 MandyManners

Why not?

I'm goin for it....

120 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:15pm

re: #95 KarenWI

Most older folks come as part of a family unit. There son/daughter immigrates to North America with their family, so they bring the fathers and mothers as well. It is done this way because they are responsible for their parents care. I have seen this many times in different cities, with many different nationalities. If you think about it. North America is probably on of the few locations where a senior isn't totally dependent on their offspring to take care of them in their final years.

121 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:19pm

Hi y'all - sorry to be late but had lots of e-mails to catch up on!
What are we all talking about ? I hope we're still on topic.

122 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:39pm

re: #109 KarenWI

Hey, don't mess with our Wisconsin traditions here, LOL! Every friday fish.... doesn't matter what religion you are, every restaurant and every school on friday has fish. Friday without a fish lunch or fish dinner wouldn't be friday here. Think that's why Wisconsin voted The One in? Because our brains had mercury poisoning? ROFLOL....

Plenty of fishing on this side of the lake too. (MI)

123 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:33:44pm

re: #112 ciaospirit

Not so much in Ohio. The Hispanic community has segregated themselves to primarily one area. They speak mostly Spanish at their stores and businesses. Some teachers are complaining that their Hispanic students refuse to learn English, claiming they don't want to and they don't need it.

Ditto in NYC.

124 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:34:18pm

re: #113 ted

I used to love Mr. Ed.

Ah, the golden age of television... Mr Ed.... Green Acres... I Love Lucy..... Jack Benny.... Red Skelton... and on and on.....

125 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:00pm

re: #107 ted

"When did we lose our national identity?"

January 20th, 2009....12:01pm.

Sometime in the 1960's.

126 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:22pm

re: #95 KarenWI

Well.... the question comes to mind why are older folks coming here? They aren't coming here to work, then, are they? If they are too old to learn English they are too old to contribute to our work force (as some like to say they are doing). Are they coming here to get free healthcare, free food, and free housing by any chance?


Sometimes a young person takes a parent to the states, and provides financial support to that parent. Does that mean that until that parent learn English, that parent should be forced to sit in a tiny apartment all day and not call the police if they are being robbed, or not call the ambulance if they are ill?

127 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:23pm

re: #94 shanec99

I agree that we should have a common language to bind us, but we should not say that common language should be the only language we utter.
Some people are unable to communicate clearly in English at first, and given time they will learn, the translators are a bridge until they learn.

What ever happened to, "Take the paperwork home with you. Ask one of your neighbors to help you, or maybe your employer, or someone at church." ?
That used to work in America.

128 Scion9  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:34pm

re: #91 BlueCanuck

Well at least you folks don't have two official languages to deal with. Otherwise you would have to deal with what goes on in Quebec a lot:

Quebec City ski event must have French name, sovereignists tell Red Bull.

/and don't ask me about Quebecs bill 101. . . . .

France has laws on the books stating all films and television shows must have French titles; even if they are foreign films and shows. Considering most foreign films are going to have their titles translated where possible, these laws 'protecting French culture' seem completely anal.

I don't mind legally classifying English as the official language of the United States, but I wouldn't want to see the kinds of laws like France has in regards to 'protecting' our culture by demanding even works of art from other countries be 'Anglicanized' before they are fit for public consumption.

129 Christene  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:45pm

"Nashville Rejects 'English First' Proposal"

FOOLS!...give it 5 more years,..begging for ENGLISH first....just more tax dollars tossed to the flame.

130 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:56pm

re: #112 ciaospirit

Not so much in Ohio. The Hispanic community has segregated themselves to primarily one area. They speak mostly Spanish at their stores and businesses. Some teachers are complaining that their Hispanic students refuse to learn English, claiming they don't want to and they don't need it.

Flunk 'em.

131 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:35:58pm

Some powerful people find it convenient to have a dependent underclass that's easily identifiable by language, and manipulated to remain in that lower status.

132 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:06pm

Radicalism breeds radicalism.

133 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:15pm

I just, for the life of me, can't understand how otherwise intelligent bloggers - "large" and "small" don't understand how evil Vlaams Belang is and still keep getting fooled by them.
Lord knows that Charles/LGF is one of the largest, best know bloggers/blogs and I'm surprised that anyother bloggers could get taken in by Vlaams Belang if they just looked at LGF once in a while.

134 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:26pm

re: #114 Ojoe
bona notte mi amico. domani.

135 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:27pm

re: #122 CommonCents

Plenty of fishing on this side of the lake too. (MI)

I suppose that is why we (Michiganders) voted for Our Dear Leader as well, eh? *sigh*

136 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:39pm

There is a big difference in native citizens who are multilingual and immigrants who refuse to learn the native language.

137 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:36:43pm

re: #117 MandyManners

Some cultures center their nuclear families around the families of origin, and rely on their older relations to take care of the house and the kids while the younger adults go out to work.

we can make it work if we need to...I live in a region where even tho people have trouble with the language they love this country like no other...I'm here for them...

138 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:06pm

re: #121 realwest

Hi y'all - sorry to be late but had lots of e-mails to catch up on!
What are we all talking about ? I hope we're still on topic.

Good evening, RW...how are you?

139 traderjoe9  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:22pm

When my parents moved to Israel 20 years ago...they learned Hebrew.

When my parents moved to California 10 years ago...they learned English.

Its possible!

140 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:28pm

re: #126 shanec99

Sometimes a young person takes a parent to the states, and provides financial support to that parent. Does that mean that until that parent learn English, that parent should be forced to sit in a tiny apartment all day and not call the police if they are being robbed, or not call the ambulance if they are ill?

The law that was defeated allowed for exemptions based on public safety and health but, I get what you're saying and agree.

141 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:33pm

Tie estas a masxino tio traduki English al Esperanto.


(There is a machine that translates English to Esperanto)

English to Esperanto translator

142 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:41pm

re: #124 KarenWI

Ah, the golden age of television... Mr Ed.... Green Acres... I Love Lucy..... Jack Benny.... Red Skelton... and on and on.....

Lost in Space.....Flipper.........Dragnet..........

143 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:37:42pm

re: #133 realwest

I just, for the life of me, can't understand how otherwise intelligent bloggers - "large" and "small" don't understand how evil Vlaams Belang is and still keep getting fooled by them.
Lord knows that Charles/LGF is one of the largest, best know bloggers/blogs and I'm surprised that anyother bloggers could get taken in by Vlaams Belang if they just looked at LGF once in a while.

Ok, I admit it.... I have no idea who or what you are talking about. Vlaams Belang? I know I hadn't been reading as much as I should have been, and I missed a lot. I tend to jump in whatever the conversation is and not spend hours looking back at all I've missed. Can you, succinctly, clue me in please?

144 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:38:09pm

re: #127 Wishing

What ever happened to, "Take the paperwork home with you. Ask one of your neighbors to help you, or maybe your employer, or someone at church." ?
That used to work in America.


That also works, sure, but that does not mean that in an emergency where someone collapses with chest pain they should not be able to call an ambulance. That is where translators are important.

145 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:38:19pm
146 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:38:37pm

re: #137 albusteve

we can make it work if we need to...I live in a region where even tho people have trouble with the language they love this country like no other...I'm here for them...

Up-dingy-wingy!

147 Ojoe  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:38:49pm

Good Night All.

148 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:39:14pm

re: #128 Scion9

Quebec's Bill 101 is essentially that, but it goes so much further. No business can post an exterior sign in anything but french. It used to be the same for interior signs as well but that got struck down. A few restaurants I believe were still fighting the law for their practices. One was an english style pub with an english name. The owner got severely fined over the usage of english.

149 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:40:06pm

re: #123 ted
and #112 ciaospirit When I lived in NYC, for the first 10 years or so, I thought that bi-lingual education was a good thing: it enabled hispanic students to learn english more quickly than simply being in their normal social mileau and it also enabled them to keep up with their other courses of study.
Then, somewhere in the mid '80's or so, it was revealed that more than HALF the bilingual teachers could not read or write English AT ALL. Thank you, Teachers Union. So those teachers could converse with their students, but could not teach them English and in fact never tried to.
Wonder if it's still the same?

150 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:40:15pm

re: #142 ted

Lost in Space.....Flipper.........Dragnet..........

(sigh)... I miss those days when comedy really WAS funny... and drama really WAS drama. Not all the "special effects" but scripted. Not all sex and profanity, but honest-to-goodness good shows. "those were the days my friend, we thought they'd never end...." (I'm singing here even if you CAN'T hear it...)

151 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:40:31pm

re: #144 shanec99

That also works, sure, but that does not mean that in an emergency where someone collapses with chest pain they should not be able to call an ambulance. That is where translators are important.

Hopefully, with the amount of immigrants (spanish speaking/mexican) in this country, I am guessing that just about every critical service already has a bilingual employee. Use them, and compensate them!

152 Perpetua  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:40:52pm

re: #56 Wishing

Further the issue of the Kurds, I was shocked to learn that the Kurds in Iraq still practice Female Genital Cutting.

153 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:41:05pm

It should be pointed out that VB enthusiast Paul Belien is now welcoming the fascist BNP into the fold. Nice company all these people keep.

154 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:41:10pm

re: #135 foxtrotter

I suppose that is why we (Michiganders) voted for Our Dear Leader as well, eh? *sigh*

My county went with the weak Republican candidate. If it were Mitt running, I think Michigan may have swung to the good side.

155 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:41:37pm

re: #152 Perpetua

Further the issue of the Kurds, I was shocked to learn that the Kurds in Iraq still practice Female Genital Cutting.

Not all Kurds are mohammedans. Some are.

156 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:41:47pm

Not requiring immigrants to communicate in English is just another form of appeasement.

157 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:41:55pm

re: #138 jorline Hi my friend, I'm doing ok, thanks! How are you doing tonight?

158 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:42:05pm

You know, I hope none of you ever get mugged, and the only person who saw the mugger is a non English speaker who cannot assist the police investigation because translators were unavailable.
Or you never have a heart attack and the person who came upon you clutching yor chest couldn't get help because they couldn't read the signs telling them how to get help.
Being able to communicate helps all of us. Barriers to effective communication can have terrible consequences.

159 Macker  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:42:27pm

Um...isn't Nashville run by Demo☭rats?

160 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:43:13pm

re: #154 CommonCents

My county went with the weak Republican candidate. If it were Mitt running, I think Michigan may have swung to the good side.

I rather doubt if Mitt would've done much. For example, most republicans here didn't think too much of him. What is he? The liberal that he was when he was gov. of such a liberal state? Or the conservative he ran as? Sorry, but his "flip flopping" probably cost him the nomination even more than anything to do with his religion. He just didn't get many votes, no matter how much of his own money he poured into the campaign.

161 little boomer  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:43:27pm

English is and must be the tongue of the land, all of our laws are written in it, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence. I love foreign languages and goof around with a couple for fun, but this is serious.

162 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:43:53pm

re: #143 KarenWI

Vlaams Belang is a Flemish separatist party in Belgium. They are far right-wing extremist neo-fascists of the "deport all the darkies and the joooos" stripe.

163 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:44:47pm

re: #151 Wishing

Hopefully, with the amount of immigrants (spanish speaking/mexican) in this country, I am guessing that just about every critical service already has a bilingual employee. Use them, and compensate them!


Agreed. I wont argue with that position.

164 acwgusa  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:44:48pm

Totally OT:

Good God, Obama's only been in office for two full days now, and already I want to throw myself off a bridge due to the idiot lefty fawning. I can't fathom the next four years.

165 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:44:55pm

re: #151 Wishing

Hopefully, with the amount of immigrants (spanish speaking/mexican) in this country, I am guessing that just about every critical service already has a bilingual employee. Use them, and compensate them!

there are second and third generation Hispanics in NM who have difficulty with English...they are first rate citizens and nobody down here...nobody would diss them for their shortcomings...I speak very little Spanish in a region ruled by Spaniards....it's my disadavantage not theirs...

166 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:44:56pm

re: #149 realwest

It's worse.........Horrible beyond imagination. Hispanic students in Bilingual programs have a 75% drop-out rate.

167 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:45:01pm

re: #159 Macker

Um...isn't Nashville run by Demo☭rats?

The governor of Tennessee is a former mayor.

168 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:45:06pm

re: #162 ArchangelMichael

Vlaams Belang is a Flemish separatist party in Belgium. They are far right-wing extremist neo-fascists of the "deport all the darkies and the joooos" stripe.

Thank you!

169 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:45:08pm

re: #149 realwest

and #112 ciaospirit
Then, somewhere in the mid '80's or so, it was revealed that more than HALF the bilingual teachers could not read or write English AT ALL. Thank you, Teachers Union. So those teachers could converse with their students, but could not teach them English and in fact never tried to.
Wonder if it's still the same?

Oh give me a break RW - you know better than to pose a question like that ;-)

170 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:45:34pm

re: #152 Perpetua

Further the issue of the Kurds, I was shocked to learn that the Kurds in Iraq still practice Female Genital Cutting.

I have to say that I was not shocked to read the link that you posted, as far as the idea that FGM is still being performed. I asssumed that FGM was still being performed, though I didn't know exactly where. It's disturbing to learn that it's being performed by the Kurds. This knowledge makes me very very sad.

171 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:46:16pm

re: #164 acwgusa

Totally OT:

Good God, Obama's only been in office for two full days now, and already I want to throw myself off a bridge due to the idiot lefty fawning. I can't fathom the next four years.

Some of us want your brain before you go.

/

172 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:46:27pm

re: #160 KarenWI

I rather doubt if Mitt would've done much. For example, most republicans here didn't think too much of him. What is he? The liberal that he was when he was gov. of such a liberal state? Or the conservative he ran as? Sorry, but his "flip flopping" probably cost him the nomination even more than anything to do with his religion. He just didn't get many votes, no matter how much of his own money he poured into the campaign.

I tend to believe that Mitt ran for Governor as the candidate he needed to to get elected in a liberal state. But his claim to be a "squirrel" hunter wasn't a real winner. I still think he is more of a conservative than McCain.

173 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:46:33pm

I'm not finding much of a direct link between FAIR and creationists groups, but I was disturbed in my search to see the number of blogs and other sites promoting "conservatism" that listed both FAIR and the Discovery Institute.

Conservatives need neither white supremacists nor creationists tainting our politics.

174 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:46:42pm

Well, everyone, it's been fun but it's time for me to try to get some beauty sleep. Yeah, I know... it's never done any good so far, but hey! A girl has to keep trying, you know! :) Goodnight all. Sleep tight, and don't let the trolls bite!

175 acwgusa  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:46:57pm

re: #171 Bobibutu

Some of us want your brain before you go.

/

It's in good condition, never been used.

176 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:47:18pm

Video of 'UFO' at Inauguration Gets Internet Buzz

Hey honey...pack a picnic lunch and load the kids in the spaceship...you're not going to believe what's happening on earth.

Or...Obama's influence is celestial.

177 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:47:21pm

Language
Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language.

so why all the non-english speakers using public services?

178 Dianna  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:47:50pm

My Male just got home, so I'm out.

Take care!

179 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:47:56pm

re: #53 shanec99

Our founding fatherds never thought it was necessary, infact Jefferson, Franklyn and Adams all spoke many languages.
We should look to our founding fathers for guidance.

IIRC, there was some back-and-forth following the Revolution about German-language schools. Note, however, that eventually these fell out of favor, and folks in Pennsylvania today speak something akin to English. Legal action was not needed.

180 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:48:06pm

re: #156 ted

Not requiring immigrants to communicate in English is just another form of appeasement.


No it is common sence, if someone has not mastered English and you force them to communicate in English it is very likely that there will be misunderstandings that could potentially be fatal.

What happens when you force a person to give a medical history and you ask about allergies, and the person does not answer correctly, then you inject that person with somthing they are allergic to?
Disaster.
This is not appeasement, this is common sense.

181 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:48:21pm

re: #161 little boomer

English is and must be the tongue of the land, all of our laws are written in it, the Constitution, the Declaration of Independence. I love foreign languages and goof around with a couple for fun, but this is serious.

I disagree....no language 'must' be the language of America....as serious as you claim to be you are merely culturocentric....not good at this point in time...we urge rather than demand

182 moogie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:48:42pm

Hey, all I know is that 35 years ago when I went to college in Nashville - we all spoke English........ didn't think anything of it either......'cept of coarse we were speaking "Southern"!

183 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:48:53pm

We need to come up with a counter to all of these different wedge strategies.

Like a wedgie strategy.

A trampoline wedgie strategy.

184 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:48:53pm

re: #157 realwest

Hi my friend, I'm doing ok, thanks! How are you doing tonight?

I'm well, thanks. Just waiting for the ambien to kick in.

185 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:01pm

re: #143 KarenWI
Well you could start with this thread topic then go back to littlegreenfootballs.com... which is a link Sharmuta put up a while ago - lists almost everything Charles and we have published about them.

186 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:20pm

re: #175 acwgusa

It's in good condition, never been used.

Let's hope it kick starts.

187 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:21pm

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

188 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:37pm

re: #166 ted

It's worse.........Horrible beyond imagination. Hispanic students in Bilingual programs have a 75% drop-out rate.


That is horrible, but I bet you it would be even worse if they were in an English only program and they could not speak the language.

189 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:45pm

re: #154 CommonCents

My county went with the weak Republican candidate. If it were Mitt running, I think Michigan may have swung to the good side.

My home county (which I was not able to vote in in 2008) went with Bush in 2004, but went with Obama in 2008. I honestly don't know if Mitt would have won my county this time. Too many GM workers looking for a bailout...

190 KarenWI  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:50pm

re: #172 CommonCents

I tend to believe that Mitt ran for Governor as the candidate he needed to to get elected in a liberal state. But his claim to be a "squirrel" hunter wasn't a real winner. I still think he is more of a conservative than McCain.

Well... that sounds a bit like Obama, now, doesn't it? Running as a moderate to get elected, and then let his liberalism out? I'm sorry, but maybe I'm really old-fashioned here, but I'd like a representative who is honest... and one who "plays the game" just to get elected isn't being honest at one time or other; either the time he was governor, or now. One of those times he was fake. I don't like people who wear different faces for different people. Be yourself, be honest...... I may be wrong here, but I can't help but feel the one who most "fit" that bill was Palin...

191 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:49:59pm

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

Si- no me gusta.

192 acwgusa  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:50:22pm

re: #186 Bobibutu

Let's hope it kick starts.

Maybe on the second bounce. Heh.

193 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:50:40pm

re: #185 realwest
Well crap - I'm sorry, don't know what went wrong there but it's [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] ag/Vlaams+Belang

194 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:50:45pm

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

speak ENGLISH! you jerktoid....

195 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:50:48pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

Si- no me gusta.

Pinches fascistas!

196 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:50:49pm

re: #158 shanec99

You know, I hope none of you ever get mugged, and the only person who saw the mugger is a non English speaker who cannot assist the police investigation because translators were unavailable.
Or you never have a heart attack and the person who came upon you clutching yor chest couldn't get help because they couldn't read the signs telling them how to get help.
Being able to communicate helps all of us. Barriers to effective communication can have terrible consequences.

Most every crime I see on the news in the morning is local losers preying on the nearest victim. Language is the last thing on their mind, and most cases the victim is their neighbor.

197 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:51:03pm

re: #55 CommonCents

I'm not against immigrants or those speaking with accents, or even those who don't speak English. My issue is why is it the goverment's responsibility to provide the translator to someone who doesn't speak the language? BYOT

Problem is, often the 'translator' brought by the patient doesn't know medical terms, or is six years old, or is not prepared to say "Mom, you've got ovarian cancer," or all three.

I just see this as smart public health planning.

198 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:51:04pm

re: #180 shanec99

No it is common sence, if someone has not mastered English and you force them to communicate in English it is very likely that there will be misunderstandings that could potentially be fatal.

What happens when you force a person to give a medical history and you ask about allergies, and the person does not answer correctly, then you inject that person with somthing they are allergic to?
Disaster.
This is not appeasement, this is common sense.

Emergency services make sense. No ones going to get killed at the Secretary of State or Farm Bureau.

199 Achilles Tang  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:51:24pm

I'm about to retire (for tonight, in case the word is a problem to anyone), but I have to say I find it incomprehensible (/not) that a people cannot recognize the importance of having a common language, not to mention that it has to be English in the USA.

For the record, I am proud to be an American and I was not born one, nor is English my first language.

Anyone who claims learning a language is a hardship is lazy. Don't allow citizenship without good English comprehension and stimulate the economy of language schools, without tax money.

god nat.

200 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:51:51pm

re: #145 Iron Fist

You don't want to run into any MS13. Dangerous people with no real fear of the law.

They're making certain neighborhoods here in DC ever more delightful.

201 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:51:57pm

re: #177 Shug

Language
Applicants for naturalization must be able to read, write, speak, and understand words in ordinary usage in the English language.

so why all the non-english speakers using public services?


Lots of things happen between the time you are granted legal permanent residence until you can naturalize. It took me fiver years from permanent residence until naturalization. Most non English speakers will generally become fluent within five years of English immersion.

202 cantrecant  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:12pm

How inefficient not to have a single mandatory language for government business. Welcome to Canada and Belgium folks.

203 Scion9  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:15pm

re: #133 realwest

I just, for the life of me, can't understand how otherwise intelligent bloggers - "large" and "small" don't understand how evil Vlaams Belang is and still keep getting fooled by them.
Lord knows that Charles/LGF is one of the largest, best know bloggers/blogs and I'm surprised that anyother bloggers could get taken in by Vlaams Belang if they just looked at LGF once in a while.

The cautionary tales that led up to both world wars are practically mythical now. Even people that should reasonably know better from having a grasp of history (or even were young during WWII) can't connect the world of today to that bygone era of 'Pre-WWII'. The prevailing opinion seems to be that we are a fundamentally different society than those neanderthals of the previous century. WWII wasn't a war, but a global revolution, and all of the death was this transformative expiation. Our very own Great Terror complete with a decapitation of the Axis' Robespierre equivalents at Nuremberg to cap it off.

Of course, none of it is true, but that is the direction of discourse. Post-WWII is fundamentally different than Pre-WWII.

204 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:20pm

re: #184 jorline
Well I hope you're close to your bed! LOL! I take it and usually within 15-20 minutes I'd druggy as heck!
How has your business been doing today?

205 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:32pm

re: #192 acwgusa

Maybe on the second bounce. Heh.

Good on ya. ;-)

206 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:41pm

FAIR, CAIR, re: #189 foxtrotter

Mitt won the primary in MI.

207 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:46pm

re: #191 Sharmuta

Si- no me gusta.


Están enfermos en la cabeza.

208 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:52:56pm

We can discuss the merits of an official language for the United States, but there is a serious problem when it's being promoted by racists groups. These people need to be exposed lest they taint the conservative movement.

209 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:53:10pm

re: #189 foxtrotter

My home county (which I was not able to vote in in 2008) went with Bush in 2004, but went with Obama in 2008. I honestly don't know if Mitt would have won my county this time. Too many GM workers looking for a bailout...

Good point there. Even here on the west side of the state alot of parts manufacturers and tool and die folks that are dependant on the big 3 wanted that bailout money too.

210 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:53:13pm

re: #78 MandyManners

Older folks might not be able to learn.

Harder the older you get. I used to teach ESL. Kids pick up languages so fast--and the adults have to work at it.

211 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:53:33pm

re: #127 Wishing

What ever happened to, "Take the paperwork home with you. Ask one of your neighbors to help you, or maybe your employer, or someone at church." ?
That used to work in America.

During the great immigration wave of the late 19th century immigrants formed associations to provide mutual support and a place for recreation with other folks from "the old country". While they were social in nature the primary purpose of these associations were to help the immigrants assimilate into American culture. They ran classes in English and civics, and helped immigrants study for the citizenship examination as well as find housing and employment.

It wasn't so much 'self help' as it was whole communities helping each other towards the common goal of becoming Americans. I'm not at all convinced that that goal is as universal amongst immigrants now as it was 100 years ago.

212 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:54:04pm

Let me help you realwest:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

213 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:54:34pm

re: #204 realwest

Well I hope you're close to your bed! LOL! I take it and usually within 15-20 minutes I'd druggy as heck!
How has your business been doing today?

It's been slow all week...damn I miss GWB.

214 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:55:06pm

re: #83 jaunte

Most of the earlier immigrants to the U.S. learned English, left their closed neighborhoods, and helped contribute to the 'melting pot' mixed cultural identity of America. This was part of our strength as a country, and is not beyond the capability of newer immigrants.

It's also what they're doing, overwhelmingly. But another part of the American experience seems to be that each time, the newly American look at the even more newly American and say "well, THIS time they ain't gonna assimilate!"

We are always mistaken.

215 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:55:26pm

re: #196 Shay4l

Most every crime I see on the news in the morning is local losers preying on the nearest victim. Language is the last thing on their mind, and most cases the victim is their neighbor.


Are you suggesting that the only victims of crimes are people who have been victimized by thier neighbors?
Or are you suggesting that good police work to solve crimes does not mean that the police must get accurate information from all wittnesses even if they do not speak English well?
Please elaborate.

216 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:55:27pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

We can discuss the merits of an official language for the United States, but there is a serious problem when it's being promoted by racists groups. These people need to be exposed lest they taint the conservative movement.

well that's how I feel about it in a broader sense...it's problematic not racist...we Americans can figure it out for the most part

217 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:55:49pm

Here is my take.

English should not only be the official language of the USA.

It should be the official language of the whole F*ing planet.

America. F* Yeah.

218 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:01pm

Herman Badillo literally invented Bilingual Ed. Here's what he has to say:

BOOK REVIEW: Herman Badillo’s ‘One Nation, One Standard’ Pulls No Punches in Attack on Nation’s Touchy, Feely Multiculturalism, Lax Educational Standards


Hinton, WV – Back in the late 1940s and early 1950s, New York City’s City College was known as the “Harvard of the Poor,” relates Herman Badillo (City College, Class of 1951) in his outstanding new book “One Nation, One Standard,”

Born in 1929 in Puerto Rico, Badillo came to the mainland without a word of English at his command. He was a product of what he calls the Hispanic “500-year Siesta,” a fact of life that has prevented Latin American nations – with the exception of manufacturing powerhouse Brazil – from achieving their potential.
Thanks to growing up in non-Hispanic neighborhoods like Burbank, CA and parts of New York City, Badillo became fluent in English – without the crippling effects of bilingual education – which as a liberal Democrat he once embraced.

Badillo could say – like Ronald Reagan – that he didn’t leave the Democratic Party – it left him. In the wake of his work with Rudy Giuiliani’s successful mayoral campaign in 1993, where he contributed the campaign slogan “One City, One Standard,” Badillo changed his registration to Republican, a not unusual situation in the strange world of New York politics – consider the case of current Mayor Mike Bloomberg — but a rarity among Puerto Ricans.

City College, one of the crown jewels of the City University of New York (CUNY) system, and its sister colleges like Hunter College and Queens College, boasts such eminent alumni as polio vaccine inventor Dr. Jonas Salk, civil rights leader A. Philip Randolph, Congresswoman Shirley Chisholm, Supreme Court Justice Felix Frankfurter, architecture critic Ada Louise Huxtable and Congressman Daniel Patrick Moynihan.

Badillo, who went on to become both a CPA and an attorney after graduating from City College, states that City College and CUNY in general once had higher admission standards than Harvard – and the quality of its graduates was living proof.

All this changed beginning in 1969, when radical black and Hispanic students took over CUNY headquarters and demanded “open admissions” to CUNY. Badillo relates in this memoir that is also a call for higher standards in education and political discourse that the caving into the demands of the radicals destroyed the reputation of the CUNY system. Only after Badillo and others began working to restore the reputation of the system in the 1990s did the CUNY system recover from this decline.

Badillo confirms many of my suspicions that higher education has declined since he – and I, who graduated 10 years after he did, in 1961 – attended college. Much of this is due to grade inflation, but lower admission standards and various forms of affirmative action that were supposed to help under-served minorities have had the opposite effect by depriving many poorly educated blacks and Hispanics of a meaningful and valid college degree.

Badillo points to other American groups that have faced discrimination (Pages 27-2 — including Jews and Asians – and how their dedication to education – and especially their parents’ faith in study and learning – made these groups achieve the highest levels in America.

“The primary determinant of any immigrant group’s success or failure in America is its attitude toward education,”

[Link: kinchendavid.wordpress.com...]

219 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:02pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

We can discuss the merits of an official language for the United States, but there is a serious problem when it's being promoted by racists groups. These people need to be exposed lest they taint the conservative movement.

Not just exposed, but soundly rejected because they will be tied to us by our "loving friends" in the msm. We must make it difficult for them to do that.

220 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:03pm

re: #176 jorline
Heh. I just read this quote in your link: "One blogger wrote, "Personally, I think the little green men rocked up to join the rest of the world in wishing Obama well." to know I didn't need to watch the video!

221 harrisonp  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:18pm

english first proposals passed in missouri recently, and they are ass-backwards. it is not going to bankrupt a state government to print government forms in spanish. people need equal representation under the law.

fun fact: thanks to native american tribes, this country has more linguistic diversity than all of europe.

222 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:42pm

re: #206 Mich-again

FAIR, CAIR,

Mitt won the primary in MI.

That was pre-bailout chatter though.

223 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:56:45pm

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

Si, senor. Ud. habla el verdad.

224 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:57:24pm

re: #180 shanec99

No it is common sence, if someone has not mastered English and you force them to communicate in English it is very likely that there will be misunderstandings that could potentially be fatal.

What happens when you force a person to give a medical history and you ask about allergies, and the person does not answer correctly, then you inject that person with somthing they are allergic to?
Disaster.
This is not appeasement, this is common sense.

Im a doctor..........I communicate fine.

225 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:57:39pm

re: #208 Sharmuta

We can discuss the merits of an official language for the United States

Effectively speaking, English already IS the official language of the US. The Congressional Register is published in English only, as are US presidential executive orders, and all Federal court decisions (even when the 1st Circuit is sitting for Puerto Rico cases).

I do think it's important to emphasize English as a single, unifying language, and to STRONGLY encourage immigrants to learn it proficiently. At the same time, the reality is that agencies that deliver various social services have to deal with people who haven't mastered the language, and should plan accordingly. To the extent that "English Only" laws try to block that, I oppose them. To the extent they aim toward rationally helping/encouraging immigrants to linguistically assimilate, I favor them.

226 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:57:43pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

Harder the older you get. I used to teach ESL. Kids pick up languages so fast--and the adults have to work at it.

Yep.

227 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:58:05pm

re: #89 ciaospirit

Kids have the chance to learn another language if they want to, but nobody should tell them they have to.

"Kids have the chance to learn math if they want to, but nobody should tell them they have to..."

It's my JOB to tell them that they have to. I mean, my job is the English part, but I also end up tutoring in Spanish and French, both of which I speak just well enough to help with first-year homework assignments.

228 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:58:28pm

Vlaams Belang- comé caca de toro!

229 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:58:42pm

re: #217 Mich-again

Here is my take.

English should not only be the official language of the USA.

It should be the official language of the whole F*ing planet.

America. F* Yeah.

Team America!

230 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:06pm

re: #206 Mich-again

FAIR, CAIR,

Mitt won the primary in MI.

Yeah, I know, but I still don't know if he would have won Michigan over Obama in the actual election. I was a Giuliani supporter at that point in the primaries. I just don't know if anyone would have been able to beat the Obama juggernaut in the Nov. election, whether it were McCain, Romney, or Giuliani... Like I said, too many people anticipating a Democratic bailout of the auto industry.

231 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:11pm

I am all for Esperanto and using the Korean (Hangul) Alphabet, though the alphabet would need some extensions for some western sound combinations.

Both are highly evolved would make human beings better able to communicate as well as expand abstraction ability for most people.

no sarc.

232 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:22pm

re: #198 CommonCents

Emergency services make sense. No ones going to get killed at the Secretary of State or Farm Bureau.


And you are saying that it is unlikely that at the local farm bureau that a sign on the wall in Spanish telling a Spanish speaker how to call the EMS if the only other person around has an accident is a waste of money.
I hope you never need help and the only person who could help you does not speak English, and there are no signs to help.

233 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:31pm

re: #187 Occasional Reader

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

Sie sind auch sehr schlecht.

234 Bob Dillon  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:45pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

Harder the older you get. I used to teach ESL. Kids pick up languages so fast--and the adults have to work at it.

Said it before here - friends in Bangkok - 3 kids - neighbor - maid - Japanese - Thai and English - kids addressed the respective parents in their language - each other in whatever. Amazing.

Sponges ...

235 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 8:59:58pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

The Congressional Register is published in English only, as are US presidential executive orders, and all Federal court decisions (even when the 1st Circuit is sitting for Puerto Rico cases).

I wouldn't be surprised if CBBHO put a stop to that.

236 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:07pm

I hereby declare Chris Muir a prophet.

Take a look at his Day By Day cartoon from 2008-Nov-21 here.

Now take a look at the current lead photo on Drudge, here, run on the wires today, 63 days after the Day By Day image above.

The man knows whereof he draws.

237 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:11pm

re: #95 KarenWI

Well.... the question comes to mind why are older folks coming here? They aren't coming here to work, then, are they? If they are too old to learn English they are too old to contribute to our work force (as some like to say they are doing). Are they coming here to get free healthcare, free food, and free housing by any chance?

Yeah, leave the old people at home. They're useless. It's better to leave them overseas and let the young folks send all their money out of the country.

/

238 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:20pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

It's also what they're doing, overwhelmingly. But another part of the American experience seems to be that each time, the newly American look at the even more newly American and say "well, THIS time they ain't gonna assimilate!"

We are always mistaken.


My sentiment exactly.

239 Macker  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:29pm

My feelings on the language issue:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

-- Theodore Roosevelt, 1907

240 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:37pm

George Soros' father was into Esperanto.

241 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:00:45pm

re: #215 shanec99

Are you suggesting that the only victims of crimes are people who have been victimized by thier neighbors?
Or are you suggesting that good police work to solve crimes does not mean that the police must get accurate information from all wittnesses even if they do not speak English well?
Please elaborate.

OK smartass I'm saying that cops get their info from those close to the crime. Your post is rife with BS about language.

You know, I hope none of you ever get mugged, and the only person who saw the mugger is a non English speaker who cannot assist the police investigation because translators were unavailable.
Or you never have a heart attack and the person who came upon you clutching yor chest couldn't get help because they couldn't read the signs telling them how to get help.
Being able to communicate helps all of us. Barriers to effective communication can have terrible consequences.

242 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:01:05pm

re: #223 MandyManners

Si, senor. Ud. habla ella verdad.

[OR le pega a Mandy en la mano con una regla]

243 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:01:09pm

re: #177 Shug I think there are a couple of reasons Shug: the first is that Puerto Rico is a "possession" of the United States, that every other year or so has a vote as to whether or not to become independent or not and that ALWAYS loses.
Puerto Ricans are "American" so - especially in places like NYC, it would be unconstitutional to deny them services.
In other places, some hispanics are "legally American" simply by virtue of being born here and can't be denied service for not speaking or reading/writing in English and lastly, the truly illegal hispanic immigrants ALWAYS go to a government hospital where - by the law of every state of which I'm aware, they can't be denied services. Indeed, I don't think they can be denied SSI either (I don't mean Social Security Disability Insurance nor regular Social Security, but something called SSI which is basically welfare. That's the way the laws are written.

244 reine.de.tout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:01:12pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Vlaams Belang- comé caca de toro!

Let's see - I recognize "caca" and "toro".

245 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:01:22pm

re: #220 realwest

Heh. I just read this quote in your link: "One blogger wrote, "Personally, I think the little green men rocked up to join the rest of the world in wishing Obama well." to know I didn't need to watch the video!

He smoked one to many doobies that day...like many in the US Tuesday.

246 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:01:47pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Vlaams Belang- comé caca de toro!

Che! Sos argentina, o uruguaya?!

247 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:11pm

re: #222 CommonCents

Mitt lost the respect of autoworkers of both union and management persuasions when he opined on the bridge loan proposals not because of his vote, but because of the false information he was using as backup. Mitt proved himself an idiotarian. All that style, so little fact checking.

And by the way Mitt, your dad wasn't all that.

248 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:23pm

re: #236 victor_yugo

I hereby declare Chris Muir a prophet.

Take a look at his Day By Day cartoon from 2008-Nov-21 here.

Now take a look at the current lead photo on Drudge, here, run on the wires today, 63 days after the Day By Day image above.

The man knows whereof he draws.

Ummmmm...the camera was beneath the lectern.

249 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:31pm

re: #240 MandyManners

George Soros' father was into Esperanto.

That strong Italian coffee?

/

250 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:35pm

re: #224 ted

Im a doctor..........I communicate fine.


In every languge? and is every doctor as capable as you are?

251 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:36pm

re: #244 reine.de.tout

My verb tenses are rusty, but I thought I had commanded them to eat bullshit.

252 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:02:42pm

re: #232 shanec99

And you are saying that it is unlikely that at the local farm bureau that a sign on the wall in Spanish telling a Spanish speaker how to call the EMS if the only other person around has an accident is a waste of money.
I hope you never need help and the only person who could help you does not speak English, and there are no signs to help.

If I need help badly enough, I'll draw a picture.

253 abolitionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:03:13pm

re: #193 realwest

I'll give it a try. It worked in preview for me.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

254 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:03:21pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Vlaams Belang- comé caca de toro!

And it's deep too.

255 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:03:39pm

re: #242 Occasional Reader

[OR le pega a Mandy en la mano con una regla]

I was never taught to use "ella" unless refering to a woman, that "la" is the feminine of "el".

256 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:04:01pm

O.R.

Vlaams Belang es muy malo.

Vlaams Belang son todos hijos de putas.

257 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:04:23pm

re: #230 foxtrotter

Like I said, too many people anticipating a Democratic bailout of the auto industry.

But in the end, all the Dems were of no help and it took the stroke of a pen from GWB himself to save it all.

That is another inconvenient truth to keep in your back pocket.

258 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:04:23pm

re: #233 ConservativeAtheist

Sie sind auch sehr schlecht.

My German's a little rusty, but I think you said "we shall overrun Poland in three weeks".

259 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:04:48pm

re: #225 Occasional Reader

Effectively speaking, English already IS the official language of the US. The Congressional Register is published in English only, as are US presidential executive orders, and all Federal court decisions (even when the 1st Circuit is sitting for Puerto Rico cases).

I do think it's important to emphasize English as a single, unifying language, and to STRONGLY encourage immigrants to learn it proficiently. At the same time, the reality is that agencies that deliver various social services have to deal with people who haven't mastered the language, and should plan accordingly. To the extent that "English Only" laws try to block that, I oppose them. To the extent they aim toward rationally helping/encouraging immigrants to linguistically assimilate, I favor them.

We are in agreement. Encourage people to learn English, but dont put up barriers to communication to those who have not mastered it as yet.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:04:58pm

re: #130 MandyManners

Flunk 'em.

God help me, I have. Lots of them.

I will say, though, that the "I don't need English" line often means "I don't think I can do this." And that I have had a LOT of kids who didn't need ESL, they needed Special Ed, but it is a lot easier to make a child ESL than Special Ed. An academically prepared kid learns English in a snap, I've watched it happen.

261 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:07pm

re: #228 Sharmuta

Vlaams Belang- comé caca de toro!

I know very, very little Spanish. Do they always use the "something of something" format like the French? Like poop of bull?

262 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:27pm

re: #250 shanec99

In every languge? and is every doctor as capable as you are?

No.......I can't communicate in every language........

"and is every doctor as capable as you are?"

The better be.

263 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:30pm

re: #258 Occasional Reader

My German's a little rusty, but I think you said "we shall overrun Poland in three weeks".

ROFLMA

264 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:34pm

re: #251 Sharmuta

My verb tenses are rusty, but I thought I had commanded them to eat bullshit.

I think it was come the bull crap.

265 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:38pm

re: #252 CommonCents

If I need help badly enough, I'll draw a picture.


Draw a picture during cardiac arrest... ok. I got you.

266 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:40pm

re: #239 Macker

My feelings on the language issue:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

-- Theodore Roosevelt, 1907

I agree completely. I can't imagine emigrating to a country and not picking up their language and attempting to assimilate to the best of my ability. If someone does come to this country, does do their very best to assimilate to the language and culture, I would embrace them without issue. No doubt.

267 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:41pm

re: #255 MandyManners

I was never taught to use "ella" unless refering to a woman, that "la" is the feminine of "el".

Erm, "la" is what I typed. You're looking at the cross-out of your "el" right before that, not the beginning of "ella".

268 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:05:53pm

re: #217 Mich-again

Here is my take.

English should not only be the official language of the USA.

It should be the official language of the whole F*ing planet.

America. F* Yeah.

Thing is, if we are going to go with making a planetary language, English kinda sucks.

It is the language we Americans know and are used to but it is a difficult language to learn and master. And as Americans, it isn't like we have pride of ownership to consider - the language came from a land over run (at varying times) by druids, Vikings, Danes, Celts, Romans, Frenchies, and some Germans brought in to breed with the Royal Family. There are words, tenses and rules brought in from all of those languages. It's a right old mess.

We are a bold and innovative country and ought to dare to think that we could advance language and communication among human beings by developing or adopting a new language. I know that isn't how languages get going, but I can dream. Alone, in all likelihood.

269 little boomer  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:06:12pm

re: #210 SanFranciscoZionist

Harder the older you get. I used to teach ESL. Kids pick up languages so fast--and the adults have to work at it.

Work at it.

270 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:06:18pm

re: #255 MandyManners

He struck out "el", but didn't put a space in before "la".

It's "la verdad".

But what's really funny is that he smacked your hand with a "rule" that's more like "policy" than "measurement".

271 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:06:35pm

re: #258 Occasional Reader

My German's a little rusty, but I think you said "we shall overrun Poland in three weeks".

Is that you, Vladdy?

272 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:06:56pm

re: #239 Macker

My feelings on the language issue:

"In the first place we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the man's becoming in very fact an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag, and this excludes the red flag, which symbolizes all wars against liberty and civilization, just as much as it excludes any foreign flag of a nation to which we are hostile...We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language...and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."

-- Theodore Roosevelt, 1907

that may apply nicely to Ellis Island immigrants, but not so much out here in New Mexico....he was wrong about language amigo

273 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:08pm

re: #234 Bobibutu

Said it before here - friends in Bangkok - 3 kids - neighbor - maid - Japanese - Thai and English - kids addressed the respective parents in their language - each other in whatever. Amazing.

Sponges ...

True story:

A good friend of mine is of Polish ancestry. His parents spoke Polish, but did not teach it to the children. Consequently whenever his parents wanted to have a "private" conversation in front of the kids they did so in Polish.

One Sunday when my friend and I were about 15 I was visiting for dinner and part way through the meal the father started talking to the mother in Polish. After a couple of seconds my friend joined the conversation- in Polish. The mother and father froze in mid-sentence and asked "how long..." to which my answered "oh, about five or six years now".

I though both parents were going to faint.

Sponges indeed!

274 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:17pm

re: #145 Iron Fist

You don't want to run into any MS13. Dangerous people with no real fear of the law.

I had a kid in my class once who tried to convince me that we should name his reading group "Salvatrucha". Claimed it was a soccer team. I looked it up.

The reading group I remember from that year named themselves "The Smart Immigrants". Proposed it, voted for it, and made it their own. I spent the rest of the spring explaining to irate other adults that the kids wanted it, and I was not standing in their way.

275 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:18pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

God help me, I have. Lots of them.

I will say, though, that the "I don't need English" line often means "I don't think I can do this." And that I have had a LOT of kids who didn't need ESL, they needed Special Ed, but it is a lot easier to make a child ESL than Special Ed. An academically prepared kid learns English in a snap, I've watched it happen.

Don't schools get money for Spec. Ed. kids?

276 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:23pm

Hey, synchronicity, of sorts; Gentleman's Agreement is on.

277 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:23pm

re: #268 karmic_inquisitor

but it is a difficult language to learn and master.

Ha. I did it when I was just a kid!

278 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:07:46pm

re: #221 harrisonp

english first proposals passed in missouri recently, and they are ass-backwards. it is not going to bankrupt a state government to print government forms in spanish. people need equal representation under the law.

Aren't citizens required to have an understanding of English?

279 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:00pm

re: #267 Occasional Reader

Erm, "la" is what I typed. You're looking at the cross-out of your "el" right before that, not the beginning of "ella".

My eyes must be going.

280 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:04pm

re: #232 shanec99

And you are saying that it is unlikely that at the local farm bureau that a sign on the wall in Spanish telling a Spanish speaker how to call the EMS if the only other person around has an accident is a waste of money.
I hope you never need help and the only person who could help you does not speak English, and there are no signs to help.


oh please.

281 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:06pm

re: #261 CommonCents

I know very, very little Spanish. Do they always use the "something of something" format like the French? Like poop of bull?

Yes, it's the way to make possessive nouns when the possessor isn't a pronoun.

282 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:19pm

re: #271 MandyManners

Is that you, Vladdy?

I said "Poland", not "Georgia"!

283 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:27pm

re: #268 karmic_inquisitor

Thing is, if we are going to go with making a planetary language, English kinda sucks. ...

...There are words, tenses and rules brought in from all of those languages. It's a right old mess.

Just curious, have you ever learned another language?

284 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:08:38pm

Perhaps this is just me projecting my own sense of whats right and wrong or whats rude but...

I wouldn't even visit a country as a tourist if I couldn't speak the language unless I brought my own translator with me, not to mention get a work visa or attempt to immigrate. If I did go, and didn't learn the language or have a translator I would never presume that one should be provided to me for free. To me that seems like the height of rudeness. I would be the exception to the norm in this situation, and the people/government of the other country shouldn't be expected to bend over backwards to cater to me in their country. Why is it rude or racist to expect this coming the other way?

285 Macker  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:09:27pm

re: #266 foxtrotter

I agree completely. I can't imagine emigrating to a country and not picking up their language and attempting to assimilate to the best of my ability. If someone does come to this country, does do their very best to assimilate to the language and culture, I would embrace them without issue. No doubt.

When I lived in Italy from 1967 to 1970, I had to learn Italian to converse with the kids there. When I lived in Ethiopia, Italian and English were already built-in to the culture; learning Amharic was something else (tadawahe) and an extra feather in one's cap!
In my book, there is NO REASON why people who come to the US of A learn English. NONE.

286 albusteve  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:09:33pm

re: #266 foxtrotter

I agree completely. I can't imagine emigrating to a country and not picking up their language and attempting to assimilate to the best of my ability. If someone does come to this country, does do their very best to assimilate to the language and culture, I would embrace them without issue. No doubt.

of course you can't ...you've never emigrated to another country...you would embrace a foreign language no doubt?...big talk

287 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:09:33pm

re: #262 ted

No.......I can't communicate in every language........

"and is every doctor as capable as you are?"

The better be.


The fact is they frequently are not, and without a translator in a large hospital in a ethnic Chinese community the results could spell disaster for an old chinese woman brought to the ER when her children are at work.

288 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:09:38pm

re: #250 shanec99

In every languge? and is every doctor as capable as you are?

He even communicates with the unconscious, the demented, the insane and the sick people who are illiterate in their native tongue who may or may not have a drug allergy

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:09:40pm

re: #149 realwest

and #112 ciaospirit When I lived in NYC, for the first 10 years or so, I thought that bi-lingual education was a good thing: it enabled hispanic students to learn english more quickly than simply being in their normal social mileau and it also enabled them to keep up with their other courses of study.
Then, somewhere in the mid '80's or so, it was revealed that more than HALF the bilingual teachers could not read or write English AT ALL. Thank you, Teachers Union. So those teachers could converse with their students, but could not teach them English and in fact never tried to.
Wonder if it's still the same?

The HS newcomers program in San Francisco gives the kids language immersion in English for some classes, but makes them work on history, math, etc. in Spanish and Chinese so they don't fall behind in their subjects while they're catching up in English. (If you don't speak Spanish or CHinese, welcome to full-English immersion). The teachers were pretty good, I did some observation a few years ago. Kids only get a year before mainstreaming, so they have to be.

290 zombie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:06pm

OT:

Charles, the Bratz Dolls video has rogered LGF for me. Ever since the moment it went up on the front page, my browser (Safari) has slowed to a crawl. When I close LGF and empty cache, the problem goes away. Try to return to LGF, and -- ugh -- like frozen molasses again. And the kicker is -- the video won't even play right for me!

Not sure what the problem is, but I dread returning to LGF until that video is tucked "below the fold" or some such, or times out off the front page.

Don't know if this has been discussed, or if I'm the only one with the problem, but my 2¢ is: Make the video a "link", now that it's no longer current. (BTW, typing this comment took 6 minutes! That's how slow!)

291 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:09pm

re: #265 shanec99

Draw a picture during cardiac arrest... ok. I got you.

Whatever.

A bilingual sign on the wall for EMERGENCIES is quite different than requiring ALL documents be multi-lingual and the provision of a translator at the expense of the taxpayer. Drama is going to convince me otherwise.

292 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:46pm

re: #211 CIA Reject
I think you are spot on when you say

it was whole communities helping each other towards the common goal of becoming Americans. I'm not at all convinced that that goal is as universal amongst immigrants now as it was 100 years ago.

.
In a "rush" perhaps, to preserve their cultural heritage, it seems to me that many groups have also rejected becoming "Americans".
But, after all, German, Italian, Irish immigrants (as well as many other types) preserved their cultural hertitage WHILE becoming Americans. It can be done. But politicians, mostly with a (D) after their name, have flogged this preserve your culture at almost all costs simply to drum up votes. You'll need a lot of help getting elected to congress from a largely Puerto Rican district in NYC if you're not Puerto Rican or at least can't speak Spanish (PR style) and stand up for "bilingual" education which is really just school in Spanish.
The goal of becoming assimilated has, apparently, been dropped in favor of retaining one's culture while living in America.

293 Scion9  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:54pm

re: #214 SanFranciscoZionist

It's also what they're doing, overwhelmingly. But another part of the American experience seems to be that each time, the newly American look at the even more newly American and say "well, THIS time they ain't gonna assimilate!"

We are always mistaken.

That is true, historically. I'm skeptical now because we have active political movements that see assimilation as bad though. That view becoming an American as becoming or abetting evil.

I'm not familiar with groups (with government funding and support no less) in the prior generations that have stifled and opposed assimilation as a policy based on either retrograde race-theories like La Raza, or the broader America hate clubs of the modern Left that do so out of pure disdain for anyone potentially grateful for America.

294 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:57pm

re: #270 victor_yugo

He struck out "el", but didn't put a space in before "la".

It's "la verdad".

But what's really funny is that he smacked your hand with a "rule" that's more like "policy" than "measurement".

Eh. I've not taken a Spanish class since my senior year in high school, when I took Spanish 4. Oh, wait. I took Junior-level Spanish in my freshman year in college. I wanted to major in it but figured the only job I could get would be teaching it in high school. Oh, boy. I was wrong.

295 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:10:58pm

re: #265 shanec99

Draw a picture during cardiac arrest... ok. I got you.

Shane, you seem to have a dog in this fight, or maybe you make your living as a translator? During a cardiac arrest, it is pretty clear that is what is going on. I am a nurse and I can guarantee you that medical personnel, either emergency personnel or hospital, have translators.
In the medical field, you can get paid to learn Spaish, including your college fees.

296 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:11:14pm

OR did not correct my verb conjugation- I therefore must assume I've correctly recalled the command tense for "comer".

297 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:11:28pm

re: #278 solomonpanting

Aren't citizens required to have an understanding of English?


Not according to the constitution.

298 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:11:35pm

re: #256 Dirk Diggler

O.R.

Vlaams Belang son todos hijos de putas.

"Putas"... eso es tu solucion* para todo, Dirk.


*I'm feeling too lazy to do "special characters"

299 Mich-again  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:11:37pm

re: #285 Macker

In my book, there is NO REASON why people who come to the US of A learn English. NONE.

I know one reason. So you can talk to the midnight shift drive thru guy at White Castle.

300 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:00pm

re: #212 Sharmuta
Thanks Sharm! I hearted your comment and then tried to post from my hearted comment, not your original comment!

301 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:15pm

re: #282 Occasional Reader

I said "Poland", not "Georgia"!

Georgia's just an appetizer.

302 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:33pm

re: #288 Shug

He even communicates with the unconscious, the demented, the insane and the sick people who are illiterate in their native tongue who may or may not have a drug allergy


lol... quite remarkable isnt he?

303 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:35pm

re: #284 ArchangelMichael

I wouldn't even visit a country as a tourist if I couldn't speak the language unless I brought my own translator with me

That seems a bit... extreme.

304 RubyTuesday  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:43pm

re: #130 MandyManners
In my Jr. High school in the late 60s, a large family from deep in Mexico moved into our hometown. Two of the kids were in my class. I don't know what was discussed in the lounge, but in the classroom most of the teachers were merciless. The kids aced math, but flunked anything that required use of English.
One year later, they were making As and Bs in most of their classes. With the help of classmates, they assimilated quickly. I doubt I could have done half as well had it been me moving to Mexico.
It's definitely possible to stop the pandering and let immigrants take responsibility upon themselves.

305 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:52pm

re: #4 UberInfidel67

Did you wash their mouths out with soap?

Then, did you get the fuck out of there?

306 [deleted]  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:12:55pm
307 Render  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:13:05pm

No further comment.

SOD,
R

308 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:13:18pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

I think come is correct but without the accent.

309 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:13:26pm

re: #240 MandyManners

George Soros' father was into Esperanto.

In that case ...

Forfikigi George Soros!

(That link has Esperanto curse words and takes forever to load. The word translates to F*** Off)

310 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:13:37pm

re: #280 Shug

oh please.

"Oh please" yourself. In a life-or-death emergency, second-language skills go out the window; I know this from experience. And considering the accident rate involving power equipment on a farm, that single, static Spanish sign in the Farm Bureau is a small investment for saving lives.

311 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:13:39pm

re: #296 Sharmuta

OR did not correct my verb conjugation- I therefore must assume I've correctly recalled the command tense for "comer".

With the accent on the "e", it's correct for Argentina and Uruguay (and I think Paraguay). Everywhere else, drop the accent.

312 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:14:20pm

re: #300 realwest

Here's a hint for the future- if it's a thread where the tag "Vlaams Belang" is listed under the article, just click that, and it will take you to the same page. Otherwise just go up to the Tools in the left sidebar where you'll find the Tag Storm, which lists all the tags in alphabetical order.

313 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:14:47pm

re: #211 CIA Reject

During the great immigration wave of the late 19th century immigrants formed associations to provide mutual support and a place for recreation with other folks from "the old country". While they were social in nature the primary purpose of these associations were to help the immigrants assimilate into American culture. They ran classes in English and civics, and helped immigrants study for the citizenship examination as well as find housing and employment.

It wasn't so much 'self help' as it was whole communities helping each other towards the common goal of becoming Americans. I'm not at all convinced that that goal is as universal amongst immigrants now as it was 100 years ago.

I am. I am confident of that.

314 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:14:52pm

Hello Night Lizards! It was rather nice to day in Near Iowa.

I waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaant a mastiff! It's blatant spin-off plug, but humorous just the same.

How are you-all and what are we talking about?

315 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:15:05pm

re: #308 jaunte

re: #311 Occasional Reader

Thanks, Guys!

316 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:15:24pm

what if a demented chinese woman who speaks no English needs her DMV forms filled out for her drivers license and there are no translators to help her?
and
How will she pass the road test if the STOP signs are printed in English only ?

317 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:15:33pm

It's kind of sick that the news orgs are saying that Israel "lost" because they didn't slaughter every last Hamas fighter.

318 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:15:48pm

Hi, just got in from work. Did we whack any trolls on this thread tonight? It's usually the sort of thread that they come out on.

319 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:16:23pm

re: #288 Shug

He even communicates with the unconscious, the demented, the insane and the sick people who are illiterate in their native tongue who may or may not have a drug allergy

Drug allergies are extremely rare in general and rarely severe. As a neurologist and psychiatrist the above make up 99% of my patients,

320 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:16:24pm

"La vida es nada pero putas y dinero."

/Las palabras immortal de Ice Cube

321 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:16:31pm

re: #277 Mich-again

Ha. I did it when I was just a kid!

True story... I met a colleague and his wife and 3 year old daughter for dinner once in Holland. After a short amount of chit-chat (in English), his daughter asked him something in Dutch which caused him to laugh. She had asked, "Daddy, why doesn't he speak Dutch?" "He doesn't know how." replied my colleague. She then had wonderingly stated, "But even I can speak Dutch!"

322 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:16:34pm

re: #310 victor_yugo

"Oh please" yourself. In a life-or-death emergency, second-language skills go out the window; I know this from experience. And considering the accident rate involving power equipment on a farm, that single, static Spanish sign in the Farm Bureau is a small investment for saving lives.

oh please nothing.
Now we must have What do do in every language at the Farm bureau in case somebody faints.

bullshit

323 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:16:47pm

re: #310 victor_yugo

"Oh please" yourself. In a life-or-death emergency, second-language skills go out the window; I know this from experience. And considering the accident rate involving power equipment on a farm, that single, static Spanish sign in the Farm Bureau is a small investment for saving lives.

There seems to me to be a huge difference between a sign saying, in Spanish, DIAL 911 FOR EMERGENCY, and french spanish chinese japanese and lord knows what else flyers on how to forward your mail.

324 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:06pm

re: #295 Wishing

Shane, you seem to have a dog in this fight, or maybe you make your living as a translator? During a cardiac arrest, it is pretty clear that is what is going on. I am a nurse and I can guarantee you that medical personnel, either emergency personnel or hospital, have translators.
In the medical field, you can get paid to learn Spaish, including your college fees.


No I am a Sailor, in the US Navy. Today I am a Chief. I am also an immigrant.
I am a native English speaker, and for me it was difficult, because my English is accented. I have earned a Masters degree in the Navy.
I deal with youngsters everyday with tremendous potential, but they have limited English proficiency. I encourage them to become more proficient, but I also recognize that until they are proficient we have to assist them or they will never be able to meet their obligations to their families, community and country.

325 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:16pm

re: #319 ted

Drug allergies are extremely rare in general and rarely severe. As a neurologist and psychiatrist the above make up 99% of my patients,


so do you get translators who speak Dementia?

/

326 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:19pm

Borrowed words in English (not a list complet):


Sanskrit: avatar, karma, mahatma, swastika, yoga

Hindi: bandanna, bangle, bungalow, chintz, cot, cummerbund, dungaree, juggernaut, jungle, loot, maharaja, nabob, pajamas, punch (the drink), shampoo, thug, kedgeree, jamboree

Dravidian: curry, mango, teak, pariah

Various African languages: banana (via Portuguese), banjo, boogie-woogie, chigger, goober, gorilla, gumbo, jazz, jitterbug, jitters, juke(box), voodoo, yam, zebra, zombie
[Link: www.ruf.rice.edu...]

327 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:28pm

re: #304 RubyTuesday

In my Jr. High school in the late 60s, a large family from deep in Mexico moved into our hometown. Two of the kids were in my class. I don't know what was discussed in the lounge, but in the classroom most of the teachers were merciless. The kids aced math, but flunked anything that required use of English.
One year later, they were making As and Bs in most of their classes. With the help of classmates, they assimilated quickly. I doubt I could have done half as well had it been me moving to Mexico.
It's definitely possible to stop the pandering and let immigrants take responsibility upon themselves.

The liberals don't want them to do so 'cause it reduces their need for governmental assistance.

328 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:30pm

re: #310 victor_yugo

"Oh please" yourself. In a life-or-death emergency, second-language skills go out the window; I know this from experience. And considering the accident rate involving power equipment on a farm, that single, static Spanish sign in the Farm Bureau is a small investment for saving lives.

The argument is 'Emergency Services' sure, all government offices with documents and translators no. Shane is trying to argue that I'm against the EMERGENCY sign in the Farm Bureau when in fact that is not what I said.

329 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:17:59pm

bbiab

330 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:18:33pm

re: #320 Dirk Diggler

"La vida es nada pero putas y dinero."

/Las palabras immortal de Ice Cube

"nada pero" is too literal a translation, doesn't really work. Instead, say, "... nada mas que putas y...", with an accent on the "a" in "mas".

331 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:18:33pm

re: #325 Shug

so do you get translators who speak Dementia?

/

All the time.

332 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:18:41pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

Hi, just got in from work. Did we whack any trolls on this thread tonight? It's usually the sort of thread that they come out on.

Hi, Walter. None whacked....yet!

333 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:07pm

re: #294 MandyManners

Eh. I've not taken a Spanish class since my senior year in high school, when I took Spanish 4. Oh, wait. I took Junior-level Spanish in my freshman year in college. I wanted to major in it but figured the only job I could get would be teaching it in high school. Oh, boy. I was wrong.

I was told by a medic and two of his colleagues, twenty-mumble years ago, that I spoke Castilian like a native Spaniard. When I told him I wasn't from Spain, or even Europe, he was convinced I was South American.

They were all astonished when I told them I was "estadouni-dense".

334 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:09pm

re: #327 MandyManners

The liberals don't want them to do so 'cause it reduces their need for governmental assistance.

ding ding ding.

335 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:11pm

re: #248 MandyManners
Isn't always that the folks Obama speaks to are physically lower than he is?
Sure seems that way to me.

336 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:41pm

re: #303 Occasional Reader

That seems a bit... extreme.

I don't see it as extreme for me to show up as an obnoxious tourist in Brazil or something and then demand them provide a translator to me on their dime or for them to write every street/building/whatever sign in Portuguese and English. If I cant arrange for someone who can speak Portuguese to go with me, I'm not going. Its my problem, not the shopkeepers and restaurant owners and hospital workers there.

337 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:47pm

re: #324 shanec99

My point, Shane, is that YOU are the answer, and I am the answer, not MORE government red tape BS in a zillion languages. Let the immigrant go to his community, to my community, and ask for help with those forms or whatever. That will be a HUGE encouragement to them to continue learning.
And we learn best from one and other.

338 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:19:52pm

re: #318 Walter L. Newton

Hi, just got in from work. Did we whack any trolls on this thread tonight? It's usually the sort of thread that they come out on.

Nary a one.

339 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:08pm

re: #297 shanec99

Not according to the constitution.

Doesn't one have to demonstrate an ability to understand English to become a naturalized citizen?

340 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:11pm

re: #292 realwest

I think you are spot on when you say

.
In a "rush" perhaps, to preserve their cultural heritage, it seems to me that many groups have also rejected becoming "Americans".
But, after all, German, Italian, Irish immigrants (as well as many other types) preserved their cultural hertitage WHILE becoming Americans. It can be done. But politicians, mostly with a (D) after their name, have flogged this preserve your culture at almost all costs simply to drum up votes. You'll need a lot of help getting elected to congress from a largely Puerto Rican district in NYC if you're not Puerto Rican or at least can't speak Spanish (PR style) and stand up for "bilingual" education which is really just school in Spanish.
The goal of becoming assimilated has, apparently, been dropped in favor of retaining one's culture while living in America.

Exactly!

My great-grandfather came to New York from Germany, found a job and a place to live through the German-American association where he also learned English and studied for his citizenship test.

He lived in a German neighborhood where the German language was spoken freely, but he refused to allow his children to speak German because he saw himself, and them, as Americans.

Such behavior used to be the norm among immigrants, now it seems to be the exception.

341 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:14pm

re: #324 shanec99

No I am a Sailor, in the US Navy. Today I am a Chief. I am also an immigrant.
I am a native English speaker, and for me it was difficult, because my English is accented. I have earned a Masters degree in the Navy.
I deal with youngsters everyday with tremendous potential, but they have limited English proficiency. I encourage them to become more proficient, but I also recognize that until they are proficient we have to assist them or they will never be able to meet their obligations to their families, community and country.

BTW, thank you! for your service!

342 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:18pm

re: #256 Dirk Diggler

O.R.


Vlaams Belang son todos hijos de putas.

Pinche chingados!

(My Spanish was not improved by teaching ESL.)

343 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:38pm

re: #258 Occasional Reader
Always a safe guess if you're not sure!

344 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:46pm

re: #320 Dirk Diggler

Oh, and:

Las palabras immortal inmortales

Are you annoyed yet?

345 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:20:52pm

re: #311 Occasional Reader

With the accent on the "e", it's correct for Argentina and Uruguay (and I think Paraguay). Everywhere else, drop the accent.

Argentina et al. use the "voseo", and the final-syllable accent for imperatives.

346 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:21:03pm

re: #322 Shug

oh please nothing.
Now we must have What do do in every language at the Farm bureau in case somebody faints.

bullshit

It's not about fainting. It's about limbs getting caught in equipment in the field.

347 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:21:27pm

re: #325 Shug

so do you get translators who speak Dementia?

/

Hire progressive liberals?

348 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:21:46pm

re: #316 Shug

what if a demented chinese woman who speaks no English needs her DMV forms filled out for her drivers license and there are no translators to help her?
and
How will she pass the road test if the STOP signs are printed in English only ?


A lisence to operate a motor vehicle necessitates certain skills, among them communication. It is not a right.
But citizens have certain rights, and if an ability to communicate prevents them from realizing those rights, then the goverment should do all it can to ensure all its people are protected and receive their rights.

349 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:21:49pm

OR,

"nada pero" is too literal a translation, doesn't really work. Instead, say, "... nada mas que putas y...", with an accent on the "a" in "mas".

Ah, yo veo. Gracias, amigo.

350 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:03pm

re: #340 CIA Reject

Such behavior used to be the norm among immigrants, now it seems to be the exception.

No, it's still the norm among immigrants. It's the exception that the LLL use to garner ratings.

351 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:12pm

I can't handle esperanto unless it's in a mocha latte.

352 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:14pm

re: #346 MandyManners

It's not about fainting. It's about limbs getting caught in equipment in the field.

I think Farm Bureau is an insurance company?

353 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:22pm

re: #324 shanec99

No I am a Sailor, in the US Navy. Today I am a Chief. I am also an immigrant.
I am a native English speaker, and for me it was difficult, because my English is accented. I have earned a Masters degree in the Navy.
I deal with youngsters everyday with tremendous potential, but they have limited English proficiency. I encourage them to become more proficient, but I also recognize that until they are proficient we have to assist them or they will never be able to meet their obligations to their families, community and country.

Peace. My dad retired after 30 years as a Chief (not all as a Chief). I agree there should be assistance where necessary, emergency services and even a little signage. But I still disagree that everything be multilingual. It may not bankrupt the government all on it's own, but many states are approaching that condition and it isn't helping.

354 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:30pm

re: #336 ArchangelMichael

I don't see it as extreme for me to show up as an obnoxious tourist in Brazil or something and then demand them provide a translator to me on their dime

Well, there really are other options, you know. Like, learn enough from the phrasebook to politely be able to ask for what you need... certainly enough to ask "do you speak English?", which many of the people in the retail, tourist trades will.

355 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:49pm

I walk for blocks in my own neighborhood and can hear Spanish, Tagalog, Chinese, Russian, Italian and yes, even Arabic, almost anything BUT English. This stuff barely phases me anymore.

356 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:59pm

re: #346 MandyManners

Thank you Mandy. It's good to be on the same page with you.

357 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:22:59pm

re: #345 victor_yugo

Argentina et al. use the "voseo", and the final-syllable accent for imperatives.

We were discussing the imperative voice.

358 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:23:11pm

re: #257 Mich-again

But in the end, all the Dems were of no help and it took the stroke of a pen from GWB himself to save it all.

That is another inconvenient truth to keep in your back pocket.

I don't know what to say or do about the auto indudstry problem, I will say that straight out. Emotionally, my ancestors served GM to the best of their abilities. Both of my grandfathers worked for GM in some capacity and many of my uncles pegged their futures on GM. The inevitable death of GM is a problem in my family. My uncles, the only relatives that I have left in the auto industry, were both taken out of the system for various reasons within the last several years and may not be affected by current problems. My dad was smart enough to remove himself from the assembly line 30+ years ago so he is okay, but yeah, the auto industry problems are a major issue in this area. Emotionally, I want to save the local auto industry, but intellectually I know that is probably not possible.

359 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:23:21pm

re: #348 shanec99

A lisence to operate a motor vehicle necessitates certain skills, among them communication. It is not a right.
But citizens have certain rights, and if an ability to communicate prevents them from realizing those rights, then the goverment should do all it can to ensure all its people are protected and receive their rights.

You have the right to the pursuit of happiness. You do not have the right for the government to make you happy.

360 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:23:31pm

re: #346 MandyManners

It's not about fainting. It's about limbs getting caught in equipment in the field.

So a non-english speaking guy loses his arm out in the field, and rather than transporting him to a hospital, you bring him to the local farm bureau to read the approproate form to ask him if he has any drug allergies?

361 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:23:33pm

re: #355 rawmuse

This stuff barely phases me anymore.

So the phasers are set on "light stun"?

362 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:23:58pm

re: #352 Wishing

I think Farm Bureau is an insurance company?

That's Farmer's Insurance.

363 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:24:15pm

re: #348 shanec99

A lisence to operate a motor vehicle necessitates certain skills, among them communication. It is not a right.
But citizens have certain rights, and if an ability to communicate prevents them from realizing those rights, then the goverment should do all it can to ensure all its people are protected and receive their rights.


Where can I read where folks have the right to a translator

364 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:24:49pm

re: #356 victor_yugo

There were two exceptions in the proposed law: health and public safety.

365 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:24:51pm

re: #275 MandyManners

Don't schools get money for Spec. Ed. kids?

Yes, but not enough, plus limited teachers, plus there is paperwork. At least in the district I worked in before jumping to Catholic education, there was a strong tendency to assume that bilingualism in the home 'explained' the fact that a kid in the seventh grade couldn't write the whole alphabet.

The conference where I mentioned loudly that Cervantes' parents spoke Spanish, but he still wrote "Don Quixote" may have been the beginning of the end of my career in public education.

366 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:24:55pm

re: #350 victor_yugo

No, it's still the norm among immigrants. It's the exception that the LLL use to garner ratings.

I surely hope that is the case.

367 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:01pm

What is the ugliest part of your body? I think it's your mind.

368 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:13pm

re: #316 Shug

what if a demented chinese woman who speaks no English needs her DMV forms filled out for her drivers license and there are no translators to help her?
and
How will she pass the road test if the STOP signs are printed in English only ?

You are under the mistaken notion that the DMV is qualifying drivers, rather than registering voters. How quaint.

369 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:17pm

re: #363 Shug

Where can I read where folks have the right to a translator

I believe that is right next to the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution.

370 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:25pm

re: #355 rawmuse

I walk for blocks in my own neighborhood and can hear Spanish, Tagalog, Chinese, Russian, Italian and yes, even Arabic, almost anything BUT English. This stuff barely phases me anymore.

In the tourist office on Gibraltar, if you ask a question in Spanish, you'll get an answer in the corrupt Andalusian accent; if you ask a question in English, you'll get an answer in the Queen's English.

371 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:28pm

re: #360 Shug

So a non-english speaking guy loses his arm out in the field, and rather than transporting him to a hospital, you bring him to the local farm bureau to read the approproate form to ask him if he has any drug allergies?

Huh?

372 Render  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:43pm

re: #290 zombie

I'm still seeing some occasional issues too. Not often enough to document, but slows is one of them, especially on the bigger threads.

I also had a comment self-save itself before I was finished it with last night.

IE7/XPPro SP3.

THIS IS
NOT MADNESS,
R

373 zombie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:51pm

As for English-only:

A year or so ago, some students in the SF Bay Area protested against their high school, because the school wouldn't let them participate in the graduation ceremonies -- even though the students were going to get their diplomas anyway. Why not let them participate? Because the students, even though they were successfully graduating high school, has failed a basic English language proficiency exam.

A TV station sent out a reporter to interview the girl who was the spokeswoman for the protest. The TV showed a girl giving an interview in English -- but then revealed, after she was done talking, that she was just the translator -- the actual graduating girl was sitting off-camera! They eventually showed her. She needed a translator because -- she didn't know English well enough to speak it!

And double-whammy punchline is that -- her protest sign was misspelled in Spanish!

So, not only was this girl graduating from high school while still illiterate in English, she seemed to be illiterate in Spanish too. And she was condisidered the best of the bunch, the spokeswoman for the cause!

This is purely anecdotal, but I think it's pretty common. Schools are now basically not allowed to lower students' self-esteem, to such an extent that they'll let them stay in classes taught in a foreign language all the way through graduation. And let them graduate even though they don't know English.

374 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:53pm

re: #369 CommonCents

I believe that is right next to the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution.


good point

375 Dirk Diggler  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:25:54pm

OR,

Las palabras immortal inmortales

Are you annoyed yet?

Not at all. I took six years of Spanish but never really had the opportunity to use it.

All I know is never use "coger" in polite Mexican company. It doesn't mean "to take".

376 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:08pm
377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:29pm

re: #340 CIA Reject

Outside of immigrant population centers; are there any successful, wealthy Americans who do not speak English?

Not being a smart ass.

378 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:31pm

re: #368 rawmuse

You are under the mistaken notion that the DMV is qualifying drivers, rather than registering voters. How quaint.

Are you implying that Aunt Patty and Aunt Selma are not living up to their professional obligations?

379 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:34pm

re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but not enough, plus limited teachers, plus there is paperwork. At least in the district I worked in before jumping to Catholic education, there was a strong tendency to assume that bilingualism in the home 'explained' the fact that a kid in the seventh grade couldn't write the whole alphabet.

The conference where I mentioned loudly that Cervantes' parents spoke Spanish, but he still wrote "Don Quixote" may have been the beginning of the end of my career in public education.

Speaking truth to power often is the beginning of many ends.

380 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:35pm

re: #354 Occasional Reader

Well I would consider learning enough of the language to order food, keep yourself from getting ripped off, and to point out what hurts/is broken to a doctor to be sufficient for a few days of a tourist trip but not for immigration.

381 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:40pm

Clockwork Orange is on...I think it's the first time I've seen it when I wasn't stoned, and that's been a looooonnnnngggg time.

382 BlueCanuck  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:26:55pm

Well I am out of here, my last toothpick for propping my eye lids just snapped. Have a good night and stay scaly folks.

383 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:27:06pm

re: #371 MandyManners

Huh?

I think you need to read every post in the thread to understand the comment. I'm pretty sure that was a joke.

384 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:27:08pm

re: #365 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, but not enough, plus limited teachers, plus there is paperwork. At least in the district I worked in before jumping to Catholic education, there was a strong tendency to assume that bilingualism in the home 'explained' the fact that a kid in the seventh grade couldn't write the whole alphabet.

The conference where I mentioned loudly that Cervantes' parents spoke Spanish, but he still wrote "Don Quixote" may have been the beginning of the end of my career in public education.

Testing is expensive, that's part of it. And while affluent parents will push for getting their kid tested, newcomers often don't realize that it's a good thing, not a stigma, and their right. Easy for, say, our cabron of a VP to talk them out of it.

385 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:27:29pm

re: #367 Shay4l

What is the ugliest part of your body? I think it's your mind.

Dirty maybe. Not ugly.

386 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:28:20pm

re: #373 zombie

So, not only was this girl graduating from high school while still illiterate in English, she seemed to be illiterate in Spanish too.

Another smashing success for "bilingual education" (at least, the crappy version usually pushed by the multiculti crowd).

387 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:28:45pm

re: #283 ConservativeAtheist

Just curious, have you ever learned another language?

I have. Spanish is much better designed to learn easily.

388 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:28:47pm

re: #363 Shug

Where can I read where folks have the right to a translator

Traffic laws are state matters, and how people obtain a license, including whether they are allowed to take the test in their native languages, are up to the states. If a particular state rules that immigrants have that right, then so be it.

Per the Tenth Amendment, do not construe the United States Constitution as the final grantor of rights.

389 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:10pm

re: #355 rawmuse

Tagalog

Such a cool name for a language. Farsi is cool also.

390 Shay4l  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:10pm

re: #385 Racer X

Dirty maybe. Not ugly.

I stand corrected!

I am now going to listen to Joe's garage parts 2 and 3 and see if I can improve my mood.

391 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:18pm

re: #286 albusteve

of course you can't ...you've never emigrated to another country...you would embrace a foreign language no doubt?...big talk

Yeah, it is big talk. But I would try my damndest. And maybe I would fail, I don't know. But I know that I would try my damndest. Immersed in a foreign culture and trying to survive? Yes, I would do what ever I could do to grasp onto that culture or language and try to survive.

392 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:21pm

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Outside of immigrant population centers; are there any successful, wealthy Americans who do not speak English?

Not being a smart ass.

I don't know. If there are then they have become Americans on their own terms. IMHO the "proper" way to become an American is on America's terms.

393 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:35pm

re: #303 Occasional Reader
Indeed. But iirc, there are now pocket sized (well, BIG pocket sized) computers that literally translate from one language to another - sort of a portable Babelfish if you will and I would bring one of those with me if I was going to visit another, non-english speaking country. I think it's only polite to at least TRY to communicate with others in THEIR language when you are in their country.

394 Inquisitive  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:37pm

re: #362 MandyManners

That's Farmer's Insurance.


No the Farm Bureau has a insurance Co. also.....I have home, car, and life with the Country Ins...which is a company through the Farm Bureau....and I have to pay a $20 fee each year to the Farm Bureau....and nope we are not farmers....

395 the_flying_pig  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:29:59pm

John Tanton? That name rings a bell.

You mean that John Tanton network in sponsoring the plans for a Race War and the Balkanization of America?

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:30:13pm

re: #381 jorline

Singing in the rain
(kick to the ribs)
Just singing in the rain
(kick, kick to the ribs)
What a glorious feelin'....
etc.

397 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:30:42pm

re: #377 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Outside of immigrant population centers; are there any successful, wealthy Americans who do not speak English?

Not being a smart ass.

Yes, Hillsborough CA. has many wealthy Chinese who may not speak a word of English, or simply choose not to.

398 Macker  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:30:56pm

Here's what I sent back to Maricopa County after I voted in the GOP Primary in February 2008.

399 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:30:56pm

re: #369 CommonCents

I believe that is right next to the separation of church and state clause in the Constitution.

Heh. And just below the freedom of expression amendment.

400 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:05pm

re: #383 CommonCents

I think you need to read every post in the thread to understand the comment. I'm pretty sure that was a joke.

No, I think Shug is either drunk or just had some kind of argument. He/she/it is out to pick some kind of fight on the thread, with evasions, straw men, mis-construings, and whatever other divisive nonsense might come in handy.

401 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:11pm

re: #319 ted

Drug allergies are extremely rare in general and rarely severe. As a neurologist and psychiatrist the above make up 99% of my patients,


Ted, please forgive me, but I know that you know that communication is vital when doing a history and physical.

I am in Africa now, two weeks ago, one of my patients contracted P. Falciparum malaria, the country I am in is French speaking... and I don't speak French.

I went to the reference lab with the translator and ordered a thick smear. When the results came back that afternoon the translator was out with another team member.

Guess what, I could not translate: intra cellular parasites resembling signet rings intra cellularly consistent with diagnosis of P Falciparum from French to English.
Thank God the pathologist (lab director) was trained in the US.

My patient had been demonstrating a cyclical fever for 48 hours.

Should the lab director have ignored me?

By the way... the patient is now well.

Do you think that this scene is not repeated every day in the US?

402 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:24pm

re: #373 zombie

"So, not only was this girl graduating from high school while still illiterate in English, she seemed to be illiterate in Spanish too. And she was condisidered the best of the bunch, the spokeswoman for the cause!

This is purely anecdotal, but I think it's pretty common. Schools are now basically not allowed to lower students' self-esteem, to such an extent that they'll let them stay in classes taught in a foreign language all the way through graduation. And let them graduate even though they don't know English."

Absolutely Correct. This is now the norm in NYC schools.

403 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:28pm

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Singing in the rain
(kick to the ribs)
Just singing in the rain
(kick, kick to the ribs)
What a glorious feelin'....
etc.

That turns me on.
/

404 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:28pm

re: #312 Sharmuta
Ah, thanks again Sharm - as I said, I had hearted your comment from back awhile ago because it was so good and gave all those links and just screwed up the linkage.

405 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:30pm

re: #383 CommonCents

I think you need to read every post in the thread to understand the comment. I'm pretty sure that was a joke.

I'm thinking so, too.

406 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:54pm

Remember the language spoken on the streets in Blade Runner? Thats what we will all be speaking in 50 years. A mix of English / Spanish / Tagalog and whatnot.

407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:31:55pm

re: #397 rawmuse

Yes, Hillsborough CA. has many wealthy Chinese who may not speak a word of English, or simply choose not to.

Are the successful outside of their own communities? I was careful in my phrasing.

408 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:32:35pm

re: #394 Inquisitive

No the Farm Bureau has a insurance Co. also.....I have home, car, and life with the Country Ins...which is a company through the Farm Bureau....and I have to pay a $20 fee each year to the Farm Bureau....and nope we are not farmers....

re: #376 Wishing

Farm Bureau: Say it in Spanglish!

409 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:32:40pm

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Singing in the rain
(kick to the ribs)
Just singing in the rain
(kick, kick to the ribs)
What a glorious feelin'....
etc.

I never remember it being so weird. George is a sick puppy.

410 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:32:50pm

re: #406 Racer X

Remember the language spoken on the streets in Blade Runner? Thats what we will all be speaking in 50 years. A mix of English / Spanish / Tagalog and whatnot.

Cityspeak, invented by Edward James Olmos just for that movie.

411 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:33:29pm

re: #314 ggt Hey ggt! How are you (other than wanting a dog that's bigger than a mountain lion, I mean)? We seem to be talking mostly about whether or not English should be required to be used in this country or not.

412 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:33:32pm

There is a lady and her husband who are from Cebu, we play scrabble with them. English is their third language. I really hate losing to them, and I am no slouch at Scrabble, but we lose to them more than half of the time. They are fun, but, frankly, I can't take the lumpia anymore.

413 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:33:35pm

re: #339 solomonpanting

Doesn't one have to demonstrate an ability to understand English to become a naturalized citizen?


I dont know... but by the time most people naturalize they have lived in the US for a few years and have become fluent English speakers.

414 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:34:16pm

re: #410 victor_yugo

Cityspeak, invented by Edward James Olmos just for that movie.

Interesting. I did not know that.

415 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:34:23pm

re: #321 ConservativeAtheist

True story... I met a colleague and his wife and 3 year old daughter for dinner once in Holland. After a short amount of chit-chat (in English), his daughter asked him something in Dutch which caused him to laugh. She had asked, "Daddy, why doesn't he speak Dutch?" "He doesn't know how." replied my colleague. She then had wonderingly stated, "But even I can speak Dutch!"

In France, even the little children speak French.

I have a kid in my class now who speaks perfect English, Punjabi, Hindi, and a little Farsi--and is starting Spanish. I tell her that there's a place for her in the State Department once she gets out of high school.

416 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:34:42pm

re: #407 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Are the successful outside of their own communities? I was careful in my phrasing.

They are rich. What else do you need? :)

417 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:35:21pm

re: #251 Sharmuta

My verb tenses are rusty, but I thought I had commanded them to eat bullshit.

I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I think the imperative form of comer is coma, or, for a plural subject like Vlaams Belang -- comed.

But high school was a lonnnnnng time ago.

418 Shug  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:35:35pm

re: #400 victor_yugo

No, I think Shug is either drunk or just had some kind of argument. He/she/it is out to pick some kind of fight on the thread, with evasions, straw men, mis-construings, and whatever other divisive nonsense might come in handy.

actually by using absurdity to illustrate absurdity and taking people's arguments to their logical conclusion.

419 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:35:44pm

re: #416 rawmuse

They are rich. What else do you need? :)

Rich does not = successful.

420 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:36:02pm

re: #375 Dirk Diggler

OR,

Not at all. I took six years of Spanish but never really had the opportunity to use it.

All I know is never use "coger" in polite Mexican company. It doesn't mean "to take".

"Coger" is a perfectly cromulent word! You can have lots of fun with "pendejo", too, going from one country to another.

One working theory I have; every single word in Spanish has a meaning having to do with sex, somewhere in the Spanish-speaking world. (An exaggeration, but only a slight one)

421 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:36:10pm

I seem to remember a line from "Moscow on the Hudson" (Robin Williams):

"When you speak English, does your mouth hurt?"

422 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:36:28pm

There is an Evolution thread for you, Charles, the Evolution of Language.
I find the topic fascinating. There have been several good Nova programs on that topic.

423 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:36:46pm

re: #410 victor_yugo

Cityspeak, invented by Edward James Olmos just for that movie.

Invented by Olmos himself?! Not the writers?

424 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:37:29pm

re: #419 Wishing

Rich does not = successful.

True, but these folks came here with nothing for the most part.

425 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:37:31pm

re: #337 Wishing
Hi ya Wishing! "And we learn best from one and other" oh wow are you in trouble with the teachers unions now!
:)

426 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:37:42pm

re: #417 Opilio

I'm kind of late to the discussion, but I think the imperative form of comer is coma, or, for a plural subject like Vlaams Belang -- comed.

But high school was a lonnnnnng time ago.

"Coma" for "usted", "come" for "tú", "comé" for "vos", "comed" for "vosotros".

427 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:37:49pm

G'nite lizards.
Sleep well.

428 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:13pm

re: #373 zombie

As for English-only:

A year or so ago, some students in the SF Bay Area protested against their high school, because the school wouldn't let them participate in the graduation ceremonies -- even though the students were going to get their diplomas anyway. Why not let them participate? Because the students, even though they were successfully graduating high school, has failed a basic English language proficiency exam.

A TV station sent out a reporter to interview the girl who was the spokeswoman for the protest. The TV showed a girl giving an interview in English -- but then revealed, after she was done talking, that she was just the translator -- the actual graduating girl was sitting off-camera! They eventually showed her. She needed a translator because -- she didn't know English well enough to speak it!

And double-whammy punchline is that -- her protest sign was misspelled in Spanish!

So, not only was this girl graduating from high school while still illiterate in English, she seemed to be illiterate in Spanish too. And she was condisidered the best of the bunch, the spokeswoman for the cause!

This is purely anecdotal, but I think it's pretty common. Schools are now basically not allowed to lower students' self-esteem, to such an extent that they'll let them stay in classes taught in a foreign language all the way through graduation. And let them graduate even though they don't know English.

OK - I am going to nailed to the walls for this, but ...

How do you know that the girl didn't arrive in the country 2 years ago? reason i ask is that I live down in Southern California and we have been dealing with Mexican/Central American immigrants (most illegal) for many many moons.

Thing is that our hands are tied - the federal government lets them in. law and policy force our districts to educate minors. And since a great many stay, we have an incentive to try to make them effective workers ( and they do work hard when they can find work, with many now leaving because they can't - subject for another post ).

A lot of these kids get here at high school age and a 3rd grade education - Mexico seems hell bent on preserving an underclass of uneducated serfs to be servants to the wealthy there and many start full time work at 13. It sucks for them, and they see El Norte (the USA) as a place where they can get ahead and they "sneak in" (I would too if I were stuck there - what is there not to love about this country).

Point is - we try to educate these kids and sometimes teaching them basic math skills in Spanish and then having English classes later in the day is how it gets done. Ideal? No. What we have to deal with? Yes. Costly? Damned right, but the federal government (who doesn't effectively control the borders) lets them in and we have no choice.

As for the protest, I think that is utterly stupid. When I am in a foreign land I am deferential to the people there always.So I am not defending her on that - I guess I am defending her illiteracy and her parents wanting her here. The fact she is squandering her opportunities here is depressing but not atypical.

429 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:16pm

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

In France, even the little children speak French.

Unless they're budding "youts" in the banlieus.

430 Wishing  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:37pm

re: #425 realwest

Hi ya Wishing! "And we learn best from one and other" oh wow are you in trouble with the teachers unions now!
:)

Good! lol

431 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:50pm

re: #415 SanFranciscoZionist

In France, even the little children speak French.

I have a kid in my class now who speaks perfect English, Punjabi, Hindi, and a little Farsi--and is starting Spanish. I tell her that there's a place for her in the State Department once she gets out of high school.

Or, the CIA.

432 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:52pm

re: #423 Occasional Reader

Invented by Olmos himself?! Not the writers?

That's correct. Olmos also speaks Hungarian, and used some in the Cityspeak conglomeration.

433 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:38:54pm

re: #420 Occasional Reader

Never call a Latino a "maracon" without being ready for a fight.

434 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:00pm

If an immigrant becomes successful in his community, while only speaking his/her native language; imagine the success he could have on a broader scale.

The competition within immigrant communities is fierce. You can make it there? You can go farther/further (whichever is correct. Beer is good.)

435 Neutral President  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:03pm

re: #393 realwest

Anyone who has used Babel fish knows that computer translation is far from perfect and does not usually tell you how to pronounce words correctly. Even with one of those things, I would want to know enough of the language to know if the Babel Fish translation is in the ballpark. Better yet, drag along a friend who can speak the language better than you.

I can see trying this in Germany: type in 'where is the bathroom'
Computer spits out (if you're lucky): "Wo ist die Toilette" (pronounced: Vo ist dee Toy-let-ay)
So you say "Whoa ist dai Toilet?"
German: "Was?"

436 ted  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:05pm

re: #401 shanec99

Ted, please forgive me, but I know that you know that communication is vital when doing a history and physical.

I am in Africa now, two weeks ago, one of my patients contracted P. Falciparum malaria, the country I am in is French speaking... and I don't speak French.

I went to the reference lab with the translator and ordered a thick smear. When the results came back that afternoon the translator was out with another team member.

Guess what, I could not translate: intra cellular parasites resembling signet rings intra cellularly consistent with diagnosis of P Falciparum from French to English.
Thank God the pathologist (lab director) was trained in the US.

My patient had been demonstrating a cyclical fever for 48 hours.

Should the lab director have ignored me?

By the way... the patient is now well.

Do you think that this scene is not repeated every day in the US?

There you go. Most professionals can communicate enough even with a language barrier.

437 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:17pm

re: #419 Wishing

Rich does not = successful.


It is the exception rather than the rule that a rich person is not successful.

438 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:18pm

re: #367 Shay4l

What is the ugliest part of your body? I think it's your mind.

Nah, my elbows, totally. Even when I moisturize, they're like, gray and wrinkly. And not in a cool way, like the brain.

439 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:49pm

re: #433 rawmuse

They have a flag:
[Link: flagspot.net...]

440 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:39:56pm

re: #406 Racer X

Remember the language spoken on the streets in Blade Runner? Thats what we will all be speaking in 50 years. A mix of English / Spanish / Tagalog and whatnot.

Nah. English is a very powerfully assimilating language.

441 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:40:25pm

re: #432 victor_yugo

That's correct. Olmos also speaks Hungarian, and used some in the Cityspeak conglomeration.

Go, Commander Adama!

442 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:40:47pm

re: #413 shanec99

I dont know... but by the time most people naturalize they have lived in the US for a few years and have become fluent English speakers.

_________________________________________________

Our laws require that naturalized citizens must "demonstrate an understanding of the English language, including the ability to read, write, and speak words in ordinary usage in the English language."


Well, assuming this to be true, then why should there be a need for multiple language translations?

443 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:41:26pm

re: #373 zombie

As for English-only:

A year or so ago, some students in the SF Bay Area protested against their high school, because the school wouldn't let them participate in the graduation ceremonies -- even though the students were going to get their diplomas anyway. Why not let them participate? Because the students, even though they were successfully graduating high school, has failed a basic English language proficiency exam.

A TV station sent out a reporter to interview the girl who was the spokeswoman for the protest. The TV showed a girl giving an interview in English -- but then revealed, after she was done talking, that she was just the translator -- the actual graduating girl was sitting off-camera! They eventually showed her. She needed a translator because -- she didn't know English well enough to speak it!

And double-whammy punchline is that -- her protest sign was misspelled in Spanish!

So, not only was this girl graduating from high school while still illiterate in English, she seemed to be illiterate in Spanish too. And she was condisidered the best of the bunch, the spokeswoman for the cause!

This is purely anecdotal, but I think it's pretty common. Schools are now basically not allowed to lower students' self-esteem, to such an extent that they'll let them stay in classes taught in a foreign language all the way through graduation. And let them graduate even though they don't know English.

Zomb, this is a super-complex subject, and I'm not going to claim I have all the answers. I will say that my experience has been that the self-esteem of the student counts for almost nothing, and what is sometimes perceived as 'liberalism' is just total disregard for the students. Who cares if they can read? We need more funding.

444 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:41:31pm

re: #418 Shug

I don't care how absurd your arguments become in your quest to illustrate absurdity, the arguments you're making are mooted by the Tenth Amendment.

So, either amend the Constitution, or leave each state to govern itself as it will.

445 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:41:33pm

re: #439 jaunte

I must have left out a certain diacritical character.
Speaking of which, I notice the comments boxes allow them now. Olé!

446 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:41:35pm

re: #433 rawmuse

Never call a Latino a "maracon" without being ready for a fight.

"maricon", actually (accent on the "o"). And it can be used in a kidding way, without getting a fight, pretty frequently. Just make sure you know the guy!

447 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:41:52pm

re: #64 shanec99

Government has a role in ensuring that all people are provided every opportunity to realize their full potential. If someone is poor and cannot go to English as a Second Language classes and is unable to communicate well, then the nation suffers from not being able to benefit from the potential that person can provide to enriching his or her community.

My grandparents came here, didn't know the language, but learned with no help from the government. I am sure there are thousands more who did the same.

448 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:42:33pm

re: #368 rawmuse
ROTFL! Big upding on that one and wish I could give ya more than one!

449 CommonCents  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:42:37pm

re: #424 rawmuse

True, but these folks came here with nothing for the most part.

I sometimes think I would be better off now if I had been planted here at the age of 30 instead making some retarded financial choices in my 20's that I'm still living with. Then again, I wouldn't have had my degree either so maybe not.

450 jaunte  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:42:48pm

"You taught me language, and my profit on't is, I know how to curse.
The red plague rid you for learning me your language! "
--The Tempest

451 CIA Reject  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:15pm

Need to sleep now...

Good night everybody!

452 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:22pm

re: #387 SanFranciscoZionist

I have. Spanish is much better designed to learn easily.

I was wondering since I've studied German, and it is definitively NOT an easier language to learn than English. Mark Twain had this to say about it: "My philological studies have satisfied me that a gifted person ought to learn English (barring spelling and pronouncing) in thirty hours, French in thirty days, and German in thirty years. It seems manifest, then, that the latter tongue ought to be trimmed down and repaired. If it is to remain as it is, it ought to be gently and reverently set aside among the dead languages, for only the dead have time to learn it."

453 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:25pm

re: #406 Racer X

Remember the language spoken on the streets in Blade Runner? Thats what we will all be speaking in 50 years. A mix of English / Spanish / Tagalog and whatnot.

I'll consider myself fortunate if I'm speaking anything in 50 years.

454 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:30pm

re: #375 Dirk Diggler

OR,


Not at all. I took six years of Spanish but never really had the opportunity to use it.

All I know is never use "coger" in polite Mexican company. It doesn't mean "to take".


I can recognize any form of the verb "chingar" at the length of a classroom...also "chicle".

455 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:45pm

re: #401 shanec99

I am in Africa now, two weeks ago, one of my patients contracted P. Falciparum malaria, the country I am in is French speaking... and I don't speak French.

Cote d'Ivoire?

FWIW, most French can hardly understand the way Africans speak the language. When I did work in France I would speak French socially and good friends would give me crap that I spoke "like an African". Turns out there are a lot of immigrants from that part of Africa in Paris and Americans have two things in common with them - we wear tennis shoes and we speak French poorly.

456 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:43:48pm

re: #446 Occasional Reader

"maricon", actually (accent on the "o"). And it can be used in a kidding way, without getting a fight, pretty frequently. Just make sure you know the guy!

I stand corrected, amigo.

457 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:44:38pm

re: #436 ted

There you go. Most professionals can communicate enough even with a language barrier.


Ted, it was only because the pathologist had been trained at Hopkins in Baltimore.
Without that help, my suspicions would have been high for malaria
(cyclical fever, photohobia, joint pain etc), but I could not have ruled out sepsis or a viremia related to a mosquito born disease like Dengue.
I as an educated person needed help, think how much more help a lay person who is not a native speaker would need.

458 Occasional Reader  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:44:59pm

I'm out. Don't forget to say your prayers to Obama before you go to bed, y'all.

459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:45:09pm

re: #433 rawmuse

Raw, ever read the Robert Tanenbaum "Butch Carp" books? Daughter (Lucy is a language savant.

Anyway, I liked them.

460 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:45:26pm

re: #389 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Such a cool name for a language. Farsi is cool also.

Tigrinya.

Ilocano.

461 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:13pm

re: #455 karmic_inquisitor

Cote d'Ivoire? FWIW, most French can hardly understand the way Africans speak the language. When I did work in France I would speak French socially and good friends would give me crap that I spoke "like an African". Turns out there are a lot of immigrants from that part of Africa in Paris and Americans have two things in common with them - we wear tennis shoes and we speak French poorly.

I knew a couple from Cote d'Ivoire. She spoke good English and French, he only spoke French. I can catch most of what you are saying if you speak French, him, no way.

462 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:35pm

re: #381 jorline Uh, I reckon that Ambien isn't working for you - you took it over an hour ago!
Please don't be like a Kennedy and have a drink and then go drive a car!

463 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:40pm

re: #459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Don't read much fiction, other than the classics. My wife devours fiction, I, the non.

464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:43pm

re: #460 SanFranciscoZionist

Tigrinya.

Ilocano.

If I knew how to say them, I might think they were cool too!

465 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:52pm

re: #458 Occasional Reader

I'm out. Don't forget to say your prayers to Obama before you go to bed, y'all.

The Telescreen says I have 16 more minutes before I have to go to sleep.

466 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:46:59pm

re: #401 shanec99

I am in Africa now, two weeks ago, one of my patients contracted P. Falciparum malaria, the country I am in is French speaking... and I don't speak French.

One of my fellow students twenty-mumble years ago went to Morocco during Holy Week, where he nearly lost his life to a rogue tidal wave. At the hospital, he was treated by the crown prince's personal physician, who spoke Arabic and French. Fortunately, my fellow student grew up in a bilingual English-French household; his third language was German, followed by Spanish.

467 zombie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:06pm

re: #428 karmic_inquisitor

OK - I am going to nailed to the walls for this, but ...

How do you know that the girl didn't arrive in the country 2 years ago?

I don't know, though I seem to remember from the report that she had spent 4 years going to that high school.

Whether or not she had "enough time" to learn English, the school should not be doling out diplomas to students who don't know English. It debases the meaning of the diploma, and insults all the other students who spent their lives mastering the language.

468 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:13pm

re: #400 victor_yugo

No, I think Shug is either drunk or just had some kind of argument. He/she/it is out to pick some kind of fight on the thread, with evasions, straw men, mis-construings, and whatever other divisive nonsense might come in handy.

I'm drunk at the moment. But trying to type clearly, and not pick any major fights.

469 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:44pm

Another blatant spin-off plug. This one from the USO. Help a Lonley Soldier Phone Home.

470 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:45pm

re: #421 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I seem to remember a line from "Moscow on the Hudson" (Robin Williams):

"When you speak English, does your mouth hurt?"

The only line from that movie that I remember is when he's working at a McD's and tells someone to "Come back, McSoon."

471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:51pm

re: #463 rawmuse

Don't read much fiction, other than the classics. My wife devours fiction, I, the non.

Well, Lar-de-dar-dar-dar!
/
Can't read most non-fiction to save my life.

472 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:47:53pm

re: #462 realwest

Uh, I reckon that Ambien isn't working for you - you took it over an hour ago!
Please don't be like a Kennedy and have a drink and then go drive a car!

Ambien works fine for me. I can take one, and I get a nice mellow buzz. Love it. I never use it to fall asleep. It doesn't put me to sleep.

473 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:48:10pm

re: #442 solomonpanting

Well, assuming this to be true, then why should there be a need for multiple language translations?


There is a time between the period when the legal permanent resident who is not a native English speaker begins living in the that US and the time when they aquire the communication skills to "navigate" the community effectively without breaking laws or getting hurt. They need assistance with learning the language and with translation of material that they do not yet know.

474 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:49:31pm

re: #459 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Raw, ever read the Robert Tanenbaum "Butch Carp" books? Daughter (Lucy is a language savant.

Anyway, I liked them.

do I need to post a Book Category Public Service Announcement for this FBV?

:0

475 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:49:37pm

re: #467 zombie

Whether or not she had "enough time" to learn English, the school should not be doling out diplomas to students who don't know English. It debases the meaning of the diploma, and insults all the other students who spent their lives mastering the language.

I have a feeling there's quite a few native born citizens who fall into that catagory as well.

476 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:49:43pm

re: #472 Walter L. Newton

Totally into Melatonin. Works for me very well. Best thing about it, if something happens, and I need to stay up, I can.

Great night's sleep for me.

477 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:02pm

re: #420 Occasional Reader

"Coger" is a perfectly cromulent word! You can have lots of fun with "pendejo", too, going from one country to another.

One working theory I have; every single word in Spanish has a meaning having to do with sex, somewhere in the Spanish-speaking world. (An exaggeration, but only a slight one)

We have a couple of Peruvian teachers at our school. Occasionally they say something in Spanish that sends the Mexican-American kids reeling. "OMG did you hear what Mrs. Ramos SAID?"

478 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:09pm

re: #471 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Since you asked, here are the latest 2 books I have read.

"Come In And Hear The Truth"
"Musicophilia"

479 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:12pm

Just to lighten up the language discussion...

I speak Jive.

480 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:27pm

Have we ever in our history of immigration to this country provided the services to people in this country who do not speak English? ...what was the procedure prior to the large amounts of people coming from Mexico ...just wondering ...

481 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:40pm

re: #463 rawmuse

Don't read much fiction, other than the classics. My wife devours fiction, I, the non.

What do you read read then? I also read very little fiction and am interested in what non-fictioned people read.

482 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:50:40pm

re: #478 rawmuse

Did I ask?
/

483 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:51:37pm

re: #481 foxtrotter

See my #478

484 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:51:44pm

re: #453 Opilio

I'll consider myself fortunate if I'm speaking anything in 50 years.

I'm shooting for 120. Depends on the health care provided by The One™

485 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:52:37pm

re: #431 MandyManners

Or, the CIA.

That was my father's suggestion. ;) Wherever she is, she'll shine, I tell you that. Plus, she brought me Malteasers from England when she went to see relatives over the break, so she's my favorite now.

486 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:52:38pm

re: #482 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

No, come to think of it. I must be feeling self centered tonight.
So, enough talk about me, what do you think of my pipe?

487 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:53:09pm

re: #478 rawmuse

Since you asked, here are the latest 2 books I have read.

"Come In And Hear The Truth"
"Musicophilia"

This past year, I got "hooked" on the techno adventure novels, like Clive Cussler stuff. Yea, I know, fancy pulp, but it's a nice compliment to my more heady stuff.

488 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:54:01pm

re: #486 rawmuse

No, come to think of it. I must be feeling self centered tonight.
So, enough talk about me, what do you think of my pipe?

Image: magritte-not-a-pipe.jpg

489 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:54:14pm

re: #480 JacksonTn

Have we ever in our history of immigration to this country provided the services to people in this country who do not speak English? ...what was the procedure prior to the large amounts of people coming from Mexico ...just wondering ...

Uh, Tammany Hall?

490 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:54:27pm

From "Moscow on the Hudson": Tell me, after speaking English all day, does your mouth hurt too?

Found it.

491 RubyTuesday  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:55:02pm

re: #362 MandyManners

re: #352 Wishing

I think Farm Bureau is an insurance company?

That's Farmer's Insurance.
Yep, Farm Bureau is an insurance company.

492 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:55:16pm

re: #473 shanec99

There is a time between the period when the legal permanent resident who is not a native English speaker begins living in the that US and the time when they aquire the communication skills to "navigate" the community effectively without breaking laws or getting hurt. They need assistance with learning the language and with translation of material that they do not yet know.

That doesn't explain why voter pamphlets, for example, should be in a mutitude of languages.

493 wee fury  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:55:38pm

re: #481 foxtrotter

What do you read read then? I also read very little fiction and am interested in what non-fictioned people read.

I just finished The White Mary.

494 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:56:40pm

Blade Runner - TEARS IN RAIN

The line "like tears in rain" was never scripted. Rutger Hauer just said that while filming.

495 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:56:56pm

re: #493 wee fury

Novels are fiction, no?

496 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:57:21pm

re: #492 solomonpanting

"multitude"

497 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:57:25pm

re: #489 victor_yugo

Uh, Tammany Hall?

I am asking about government agencies ...did they provide translation of forms, etc. in the different languages of the people coming to America ...if so, how far was it carried out ...

498 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:57:25pm

re: #488 Walter L. Newton

Are you out of work? I don't have many theater connections and the few I have are pretty humble. Do you want me to make some calls for you?

499 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:57:30pm

re: #435 ArchangelMichael
All that you said is true and irrelevent to what I posted.
I said I would want to at least try to communicate in the language of a foreign country if I were to go there as a tourist (or busniness person) and those pocket translators are, iirc, somewhat more accurate that Babelfish. But still and all, I think it proper and polite to try to communicate with people in THEIR language. Unless, of course you have sufficient lead time to truly study the language and many of us don't have the time to do that.

500 wee fury  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:57:56pm

re: #495 rawmuse

Novels are fiction, no?

Yes.

501 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:58:05pm

re: #483 rawmuse

See my #478


Ah, thanks. We've had Musicophilia at the front registers for months and have sold many copies though I have not sold many copies myself and have not browsed the book for more than 30 seconds. I am nearly finished with Chris Bellamy's Absolute War. I am slightly perturbed by the way Bellamy apologises for Stalin, but what do you do?

502 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:58:24pm

re: #464 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If I knew how to say them, I might think they were cool too!

Tigrinya is an East African language from Eritrea, related to Amharic. I had to look it up on the Internet, because one of my students spoke it. Awesome kid. Her dad showed up on my first day of classes to tell me that he wanted his daughter to learn to be 'bold, like the American girls'.

503 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:58:40pm

re: #494 Racer X

that movie still holds up today. Pretty amazing.

504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:59:14pm

re: #487 Walter L. Newton

I always enjoyed the Dirk Pitt novels. Kurt Austin? Not so much.

505 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 9:59:40pm

re: #495 rawmuse

Novels are fiction, no?

You're thinking newspapers.

506 wee fury  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:13pm

re: #500 wee fury

Yes.

Ooops, guess I didn't read foxtrotter's request correctly. Must be the beer. Sorry.

507 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:31pm

re: #480 JacksonTn

Have we ever in our history of immigration to this country provided the services to people in this country who do not speak English? ...what was the procedure prior to the large amounts of people coming from Mexico ...just wondering ...

It wasn't uncommon to provide services and classes in Italian, Yiddish, whatever.

508 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:31pm

re: #492 solomonpanting

That doesn't explain why voter pamphlets, for example, should be in a mutitude of languages.


I don't have all the answers, so I cannot tell the rationale behind that. Perhaps it is just that it is cheap and they want to ensure that every person casts their vote for the candidate they intended to, and the way of ensuring this is to give everyone their instruction in their native language.
If it were unconstituional then the practice would have been challenged and made illegal. So it must be constitutional.
If something is constitutional and does not hurt anyone and can help someone then I say let's do it.

509 zombie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:34pm

Anyway, you can't legislate what goes on in people's heads. You can try to motivate them, and try to educate them, but at the end of the day, if they don't learn, you simply have to let them be either severely disadvantaged in mainstream society, or restricted to a specific subculture within America.

510 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:40pm

re: #447 melinwy
"My grandparents came here, didn't know the language, but learned with no help from the government. I am sure there are millions thousands more who did the same."
FTFY!

511 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:41pm

re: #498 Killgore Trout

Are you out of work? I don't have many theater connections and the few I have are pretty humble. Do you want me to make some calls for you?

No. Why did you assume that? Things are a bit slow at the theatre, patronage is down, but that's happening all over.

I'm always looking for a full time programming job, have a possible lead on one, will know more next week.

I would always take a full time programming job over the theatre job. I would just go back to working part time at the theatre like I've done for 40 years.

Here, my first article of the season... check it out...

[Link: www.docarzt.com...]

What did you think of the season opener?

512 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:00:47pm

re: #495 rawmuse

Novels are fiction, no?

You're thinking of newspapers.

513 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:19pm

re: #467 zombie

I don't know, though I seem to remember from the report that she had spent 4 years going to that high school.

Whether or not she had "enough time" to learn English, the school should not be doling out diplomas to students who don't know English. It debases the meaning of the diploma, and insults all the other students who spent their lives mastering the language.

My inclination is to agree outright, but I have to sadly say that "diploma" in California has been debased significantly in the last 3 decades. So much that native speakers don't have to come close to mastering English to get the diploma.

Were we a more rational society no longer bent on identity politics and free from racial "media entrepreneurs" then we'd set up a separate school for immigrant children focused on English literacy that would only issue a certificate of completion. The certificate would be needed for entry into the public education system. If you came here as an adult from France and wanted to go to the UC, you'd need such a certificate. And if you met the standard walking in the door, you could take the test, pass and walk out.

B

514 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:20pm

Judging by the stories I'm reading in the toplinks list today, sounds like Obama is going to be one nasty piece of work as a president, i.e. rude and unnecessarily boastful. I mean, maybe not, but that's the impression I get from the various stories I've read.

Maybe he's in over his head.

We'll see.

515 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:44pm

re: #411 realwest

Hey ggt! How are you (other than wanting a dog that's bigger than a mountain lion, I mean)? We seem to be talking mostly about whether or not English should be required to be used in this country or not.


Hey RW! How you doin'

Yes, English should be required to earn a High School Diploma or GED in this country. Sorry to those who don't agree. I don't have a problem with translators to help those recently arrived, but they should be provided and paid-for by the immigrant. I think we'd weed out a lot of those who aren't serious about being part of this Country.

Most children (not all) can learn a to function with a second language easily. It helps if they have a good command of the first language in the first place. If a child comes from a home in which full sentences aren't used on a regular basis, it will be difficult for them to learn any language.

I live in an area with a large latino population. A friend was teaching in the public school system and told me that a lot of the kids come that come here are from villages in which they may have a teacher one or two days a week, and not on a regular basis. It is very difficult for the school system to incorporate the type of ESL classes they need to succeed. I have no problem using tax dollars to help these kids, I just think the immigrant community could do a better job. Perhaps after school tutoring or a summer intensive program partnership with the immigrant community organizations or churches?

516 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:46pm

re: #503 Killgore Trout

that movie still holds up today. Pretty amazing.

Yep. In my top 5.

517 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:56pm

re: #504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always enjoyed the Dirk Pitt novels. Kurt Austin? Not so much.

Interesting. I have read at least one of each character, and I like Kurt best. I guess because I relate to the stud in me.

518 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:01:59pm

re: #497 JacksonTn

I am asking about government agencies ...did they provide translation of forms, etc. in the different languages of the people coming to America ...if so, how far was it carried out ...

At Ellis Island there were people who translated for the Italians, sure. Some Italians spoke no English, so in order to process the documents efficiently people who spoke Italian were available.

519 zombie  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:02:12pm

Damn, typing comments is just sheer torture, it's so slow. Until that Bratz video absents itself, I'm going to have to log out!

Buenos noches.

520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:02:15pm

I really don't know how that repeated post happened.

521 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:02:54pm

re: #502 SanFranciscoZionist

Her dad showed up on my first day of classes to tell me that he wanted his daughter to learn to be 'bold, like the American girls'.

I hope he meant truly bold, not "a little bitch under a veneer of pseudo-feminist victimhood".

522 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:03:16pm

Wish You Were Here
Gregorian & Vangelis version.

523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:03:21pm

re: #517 Walter L. Newton

Interesting. I have read at least one of each character, and I like Kurt best. I guess because I relate to the stud in me.

You enjoy that, okay?

524 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:03:30pm

re: #509 zombie

Anyway, you can't legislate what goes on in people's heads. You can try to motivate them, and try to educate them, but at the end of the day, if they don't learn, you simply have to let them be either severely disadvantaged in mainstream society, or restricted to a specific subculture within America.


Zombie, as always you are right. We have to do the right thing, we can as the cliche goes take the horse to water. If they dont "drink", well we have done our part.

525 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:03:45pm

re: #520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I really don't know how that repeated post happened.

perhaps there's a ghost in the machine

526 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:02pm

re: #520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I really don't know how that repeated post happened.

perhaps there's a ghost in the machine

527 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:11pm

re: #523 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I found the perfect remote control for you.

528 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:18pm

re: #504 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I always enjoyed the Dirk Pitt novels. Kurt Austin? Not so much.

Those novels have always been a guilty pleasure of mine too. I just read his The Chase, and it was a fun read also.

529 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:18pm

re: #524 shanec99

Zombie, as always you are right. We have to do the right thing, we can as the cliche goes take the horse to water. If they dont "drink", well we have done our part.

OTOH, if the horse jumps in and starts doing the backstroke, call the National Enquirer!

530 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:31pm

I mentor some teens and the hardest thing to do is to try to convince them that they know absolutely nothing useful. Until they recognize that, you are wasting your time.

531 victor_yugo  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:04:49pm

Okay, I gotta get going. I'll have a busy day tomorrow. Nite oll.

532 tntb  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:08pm

Here's the view from Nashville. Eric Crafton is the racist creep who was pushing this proposal. He previously pushed an ordinance (that also failed) which would have outlawed the "Taquerias" on wheels that Mexicans like so much. He started this campaign with a $19,000 donation from the group that Charles mentioned above. Only, Eric wouldn't say where the $ came from. ProEnglish, on the other hand, couldn't hold it in and issued a press release. As of now, Eric still hasn't filed the legally required funding disclosure, stating that he wanted to wait until after the election due to death threats.

[Link: www.tennessean.com...]

Note that he *still* hasn't released this.

533 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:10pm

re: #525 Opilio

perhaps there's a ghost in the machine

Brilliant.

534 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:14pm

re: #527 Sharmuta

I found the perfect remote control for you.

Oh my gosh (blushing).
/

535 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:22pm

re: #518 shanec99

At Ellis Island there were people who translated for the Italians, sure. Some Italians spoke no English, so in order to process the documents efficiently people who spoke Italian were available.

Right ...I know that they were there at Ellis Island ...I am talking about after that ... after they got off the Island ...when in our history have we gone to the length we are now for people coming from Mexico ...

536 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:24pm

re: #526 Opilio

perhaps there's a ghost in the machine

Brilliant.

537 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:05:28pm

re: #521 victor_yugo

I hope he meant truly bold, not "a little bitch under a veneer of pseudo-feminist victimhood".

Oh, most surely. A really nice man, very interested in seeing his girls succeed. (He had three daughters. Basically identical, each shorter than the next.) He explained that he had observed that American women were more assertive than was considered appropriate back home, so he wanted his daughter to learn to assert herself so she would be successful.

Adorable little girl. Nice dad.

538 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:06:13pm

re: #520 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I really don't know how that repeated post happened.

Whatever

539 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:06:27pm

re: #526 Opilio

perhaps there's a ghost in the machine

˙ʇuɐıllıɹq

540 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:06:50pm

re: #529 victor_yugo

OTOH, if the horse jumps in and starts doing the backstroke, call the National Enquirer!


heh heh

541 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:06:57pm

re: #527 Sharmuta

Just don't know what I started, did I?

Don't fuck with a Smurf.

542 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:07:06pm

re: #506 wee fury

Ooops, guess I didn't read foxtrotter's request correctly. Must be the beer. Sorry.

Sorry, didn't mean to bring any problems to any thread. I was just interested in what readers in the GM (MI) Belt might be responding to at the moment.

543 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:07:48pm

re: #541 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just don't know what I started, did I?

Don't fuck with a Smurf.

You love it.

544 wee fury  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:08:12pm

re: #481 foxtrotter

What do you read read then? I also read very little fiction and am interested in what non-fictioned people read.

Non-Fiction -- finished The Great Hunger last week.

545 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:08:16pm

re: #543 Sharmuta

You love it.

You know it.

546 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:08:56pm

re: #545 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You know it.

re: #545 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

You know it.

You'll eat it!

547 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:09:07pm

re: #543 Sharmuta

You love it.

By the way, right now? I am flipping you off with my MIND!

548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:09:34pm

re: #546 Walter L. Newton

You'll eat it!

There's cake?

549 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:09:59pm

re: #516 Racer X

Yep. In my top 5.

I love Blade Runner. Another one that holds up is The Forbidden Planet. I mean, the special effects are still neat to look at.

550 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:10:11pm

re: #537 SanFranciscoZionist

Great dad.

551 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:10:23pm

re: #511 Walter L. Newton

I haven't been following all the conversations but I gathered the impression (somehow) that you were out of work. My theater connections are pretty weak anyways. Oh, well.
Re: lost
I thought it was a really good episode. They gave Hurley some really tough acting scenes and he pulled them off brilliantly. I also never noticed that Cheech Marin has a cleft pallet/ hare lip scare before. Linus and Sayid were awesome, as always. Jack and Kate are almost certainly the weakest actors of the bunch. Lock and Sawyer are cool characters and their acting is passable. I'm happy to see that the writing seems to be back on track. Not every episode needs to be a gem but they need to keep the quality pretty high. They have almost lost me at points in the past.
I'll be watching again next week.

552 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:10:25pm

re: #535 JacksonTn

Right ...I know that they were there at Ellis Island ...I am talking about after that ... after they got off the Island ...when in our history have we gone to the length we are now for people coming from Mexico ...


I don't know, but if there were not, then those immigrants must have had a really hard time. Today in some Brooklyn communities you still encounter old people who only speak Italian or Russian or Yiddish or Spanish. They have a really limited experience of what it is to be American, but they are still valuable members of the community.

553 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:10:33pm

re: #541 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just don't know what I started, did I?

Don't fuck with a Smurf.

There is a joke in there --something to do with blue body parts --Lizards help me here. . . . .

If you don't go blind, you'll turn blue?

554 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:10:55pm

re: #544 wee fury

Non-Fiction -- finished The Great Hunger last week.

Is that about Ireland?

555 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:11:00pm

re: #548 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

There's cake?

In the shape of a middle finger.

556 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:11:13pm

re: #473 shanec99
Evening shanec99! I think you're right about that, but I also think that an awful lot of people use those signs etc that are in, say Spanish, as a way of avoiding having to learn to speak English.
I think,moreover, that the real issue is "assimilation" - do we want all citizens of the United States to be able to communicate in English or not? That truly is the fundamental question and very candidly, the way bi-lingual education in lots of places - not just NYC - is handled, children do in fact go through virtually most school grades and NEVER learn English. And a LOT of politicians are cool with that (as long as they get their votes, they don't care whether or not the electorate they deal with learns English.).
I think HAVING to learn English and having to transact basic interactions with other people in English is a way to make people assimilate and become, ya know, Americans. Should there be exceptions for emergency medical care, police and other sorts of necessary civil services, certainly, but for me, that's where the non-need to learn English ends.

557 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:12:23pm

re: #538 Sharmuta

Whatever


Whatever

558 wee fury  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:12:25pm

re: #554 foxtrotter

Yes. If you click on the link 'The Great Hunger' -- it will take you to the Amazon page which describes the book.

559 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:12:38pm

re: #549 Archimedes

I love Blade Runner. Another one that holds up is The Forbidden Planet. I mean, the special effects are still neat to look at.

Monsters from the id!

560 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:12:52pm

Maybe he should be called Robert The Third Reich, racist that he is.

561 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:12:53pm

re: #555 Sharmuta

In the shape of a middle finger.

What flavor icing?

562 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:13:06pm

Vangelis - Heaven & Hell Pt.1

Was gonna save that for an ID thread but the images are stunning, so here it is.

563 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:14:40pm

re: #552 shanec99

I don't know, but if there were not, then those immigrants must have had a really hard time. Today in some Brooklyn communities you still encounter old people who only speak Italian or Russian or Yiddish or Spanish. They have a really limited experience of what it is to be American, but they are still valuable members of the community.

My great-grandfather spoke Yiddish, Russian, Italian and Hebrew, but only minimal English for much of his life. My grandma did the taxes when she was ten because no one else could. But his grandchildren are lawyers and doctors and filmmakers and teachers, and Indian chiefs because his made his five girls and one boy go to school and study.

564 stevieray  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:14:46pm

A big difference between today and the past big immigration waves:

In the past, the ethnic community clubs were the primary source of help -- welfare -- for immigrants facing tough times. Those clubs got their money from within their ethnic community, and therefore had a great motivation to get their newcomers on their feet.

Today, the help for immigrants comes from the government, the incentives have been reversed. There is more money and political power to be had by keeping your newcomers weak and dependent.

565 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:02pm

re: #522 Racer X

Wish You Were Here
Gregorian & Vangelis version.

Speaking of monks chanting ...

566 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:07pm

re: #562 Racer X

Vangelis - Heaven & Hell Pt.1

Was gonna save that for an ID thread but the images are stunning, so here it is.

BILLions and BILLions of stars in the great Cosmossss.... and you wonder how we humans got here, on this tiny Blue Planet.

567 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:08pm

All Right Lizards! I really don't want to type the whole Book Category Public Service Announcement, so please link the great books you've been discussing. I can't remember them all and when I want a new book, I do refer to the links. I hope others do to.

568 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:18pm

I have no fear for english, nor for our culture because they are open. We are not "multicultural" -- we are culture thieves. We take the best from all cultures, and toss the rest.
Whether it's our language, or our culture, the things that endure are the things that work, that appeal, that enhance. Over time the ugly words borrowed get displaced, just as the ugly culture eventually falls in the gutter and gets washed away. There's always been a small minority in the arts who are willing to sewer dive and rub the ugly in our face, but it's mostly ignored and never lasts.
In two hundred years nobody will remember the elephant dung madonna, but they will still be viewing Bierstadt and Wyeth prints.

569 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:20pm

Everybody (assuming) knows deus ex machina. I want an expression (in old Greek) "Ghost from the Machine".

Can I get a little help? I have been trying to use it when the nerds are working on my work laptop remotely.

570 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:16:50pm

re: #561 MandyManners

What flavor icing?

Lemon.

571 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:17:38pm

re: #556 realwest

Good evening my friend. I believe that failing to learn English in America limits an immigrant's upward mobility and stifles thier potential. I also believe that a person does not immediately aquire language skills upon crossing the border, it takes time, and while they are learning the language it is imperative that the government do all it can to help these people to assimilate. So we (by we I mean the government) must provide assitance, this includes providing language education, traslation services and providing necessary information to meet civic responsibillities (no smoking signs at gas stations for example or around hospitals where oxygen is in use).
If we fail to provide these services we imperil the entire community and impede the progress of people who will one day become citizens.

572 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:17:44pm

re: #508 shanec99

I don't have all the answers, so I cannot tell the rationale behind that. Perhaps it is just that it is cheap and they want to ensure that every person casts their vote for the candidate they intended to, and the way of ensuring this is to give everyone their instruction in their native language.
If it were unconstituional then the practice would have been challenged and made illegal. So it must be constitutional.
If something is constitutional and does not hurt anyone and can help someone then I say let's do it.


No, it's not unconstitutional, but delays the push to learn the language, and assimilate into society. Sometimes being legal is not the same as being right.
Before I forget, thank you for your service.

573 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:17:49pm

re: #551 Killgore Trout

I haven't been following all the conversations but I gathered the impression (somehow) that you were out of work. My theater connections are pretty weak anyways. Oh, well.
Re: lost
I thought it was a really good episode. They gave Hurley some really tough acting scenes and he pulled them off brilliantly. I also never noticed that Cheech Marin has a cleft pallet/ hare lip scare before. Linus and Sayid were awesome, as always. Jack and Kate are almost certainly the weakest actors of the bunch. Lock and Sawyer are cool characters and their acting is passable. I'm happy to see that the writing seems to be back on track. Not every episode needs to be a gem but they need to keep the quality pretty high. They have almost lost me at points in the past.
I'll be watching again next week.

Jorge Garcia started as a stand up comedian, and, as we've seen before, many times a comic can pull off serious scenes because they have that "empathy" factor.

Robin Williams is another good example. He shines in serious roles.

They "lost" a lot of people during season two, but that was because ABC was fiddling with the business part of things, and the producers didn't know if they were going to get all they were promised, so they started writing "place holder" episodes that really went no where, because they weren't sure if they were going to be able to continue the story they had already plotted out.

I wasn't until about mid-season in season 3 that they were back on track.

They planned all the major plot arcs out before they even started filming the first episode, but it took them almost two years to convince ABC that they needed a 6 season promise to tell the story.

574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:17:52pm

re: #565 ConservativeAtheist

Speaking of monks chanting ...

Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Pie Jesu" is a masterpiece (as long as the soprano is better than Sarah).

575 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:18:23pm

re: #559 Opilio

Monsters from the id!

Oh yeah. Btw, apparently the movie was based on Shakespeare's The Tempest.

I also loved the robot, Robby.

576 Killgore Trout  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:18:55pm

A moldy oldie for the Lizardim.....
(These are) The Good Old Days


Namaste, y'all
577 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:19:21pm

re: #569 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Spiritus es mortus machina

578 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:19:47pm

re: #574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Pie Jesu" is a masterpiece (as long as the soprano is better than Sarah).

Pie Jesu domine,
Dona eis requiem...
SMACK!

OK. I had too much wine this evening. But it's Shabbos, right?

579 Sharmuta  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:20:07pm

re: #573 Walter L. Newton

Jim Carey is really good when he does serious stuff, imo. LOVED him in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

580 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:20:37pm

re: #569 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Everybody (assuming) knows deus ex machina. I want an expression (in old Greek) "Ghost from the Machine".

Can I get a little help? I have been trying to use it when the nerds are working on my work laptop remotely.

Here's what Babelfish came up with :

φάντασμα στη μηχανή

581 foxtrotter  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:20:37pm

re: #558 wee fury

Yes. If you click on the link 'The Great Hunger' -- it will take you to the Amazon page which describes the book.

Thank you, I have read a few books on the Great Famine. My main interest is on the Eastern front of the German/Russian line. But thank you though.

582 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:20:49pm

re: #568 Thanos

I have no fear for english, nor for our culture because they are open. We are not "multicultural" -- we are culture thieves. We take the best from all cultures, and toss the rest.
Whether it's our language, or our culture, the things that endure are the things that work, that appeal, that enhance. Over time the ugly words borrowed get displaced, just as the ugly culture eventually falls in the gutter and gets washed away. There's always been a small minority in the arts who are willing to sewer dive and rub the ugly in our face, but it's mostly ignored and never lasts.
In two hundred years nobody will remember the elephant dung madonna, but they will still be viewing Bierstadt and Wyeth prints.

On the give and take of culture, something I wrote after my first trip to France...

We have heard so much about the language barrier between the French and the rest of the world. But after my first 5 days in France, I suspect that the only barrier anyone has between the culture of one nation toward another is fear.

I am sitting here in the Chateau reading “Le Journal De Saone-et-Loire.” See that word “Journal,” it means newspaper, pretty simple.
Other words from the paper jump out at me. Reduction, voyages, transport, grand, gala, solitaire, France, sanctions, confrontation, nature and so on and so on.

In the same paper I see English words peppered though out the pages. Donald Duck, Mickey Mouse, Macdonald’s, Colgate, Marlboro, Winston, Kentucky Fried Chicken and the list goes on.

France has given us many of the words that we use on a daily basis and we have given them loan words that represent American consumerism. That seems like a fair trade… language barrier, I don’t think so.

583 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:21:01pm

re: #480 JacksonTn
IIRC, and it's late and I'm tired, immigrants to this nation had to learn english. period. The move to multi-lingual came with Spanish (only) speaking immigrants - some of whom (e.g., Puertro Rico) were American Citizens. For the most part, as was true of immigrants from other nations, they mostly relocated in "ghettos" in urban America and worked with each other to learn English, because they wanted to be Americans. When the Spanish speaking Immigrants came here, they too wound up for the most part in Spanish speaking Ghettos but someone warned them that if they gave up speaking Spanish and other things, they would lose their cultural identity and politicians JUMPED on this and, purely out of an intent to fill the rolls of voters they could count on, all of a sudden had bi-lingual educaton, signs in English and in Spanish and the like.
I don't know if that actually helped them retain their heritage, I do know a LOT of them never bothered to learn english and didn't assimilate very much at all.

584 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:21:29pm

re: #574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Pie Jesu" is a masterpiece (as long as the soprano is better than Sarah).

Which is not easy to find.

585 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:21:58pm

re: #563 SanFranciscoZionist

My great-grandfather spoke Yiddish, Russian, Italian and Hebrew, but only minimal English for much of his life. My grandma did the taxes when she was ten because no one else could. But his grandchildren are lawyers and doctors and filmmakers and teachers, and Indian chiefs because his made his five girls and one boy go to school and study.


Isn't that wonderful?
You know stories like that inspire. Yes, we should tell stories like your great grandfather's to new immigrants, let them know that sharing the American dream includes sharing the language. It is important.
All I am asking is that until they do become proficient they be assisted so that they can become productive members of our community.

586 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:22:36pm

re: #564 stevieray

A big difference between today and the past big immigration waves:

In the past, the ethnic community clubs were the primary source of help -- welfare -- for immigrants facing tough times. Those clubs got their money from within their ethnic community, and therefore had a great motivation to get their newcomers on their feet.

Today, the help for immigrants comes from the government, the incentives have been reversed. There is more money and political power to be had by keeping your newcomers weak and dependent.

Thank you for stating that ...I believe what you said is what I was trying to get at ...and I feel that the democrats will use this to grow their base even larger ...we employ many many hispanics through the H2A program and most have been with us for over a decade ...I asked them about the election and for the most part they said that they felt most hispanics would vote for whichever party said they would give them drivers licenses and eventually amnesty ...our employees cannot vote but they network and I believed what they said ...the democrats will continue to use them for their purposes ...

587 ConservativeAtheist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:22:39pm

re: #574 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Andrew Lloyd Webber's "Pie Jesu" is a masterpiece (as long as the soprano is better than Sarah).

Try this one.

588 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:22:45pm

re: #579 Sharmuta

Jim Carey is really good when he does serious stuff, imo. LOVED him in Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind.

Yes, another excellent example.

589 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:23:36pm

re: #583 realwest

IIRC, and it's late and I'm tired, immigrants to this nation had to learn english. period. The move to multi-lingual came with Spanish (only) speaking immigrants - some of whom (e.g., Puertro Rico) were American Citizens. For the most part, as was true of immigrants from other nations, they mostly relocated in "ghettos" in urban America and worked with each other to learn English, because they wanted to be Americans. When the Spanish speaking Immigrants came here, they too wound up for the most part in Spanish speaking Ghettos but someone warned them that if they gave up speaking Spanish and other things, they would lose their cultural identity and politicians JUMPED on this and, purely out of an intent to fill the rolls of voters they could count on, all of a sudden had bi-lingual educaton, signs in English and in Spanish and the like.
I don't know if that actually helped them retain their heritage, I do know a LOT of them never bothered to learn english and didn't assimilate very much at all.

I dunno. Thing is, I work with a lot of grandkids of SPanish speaking immigrants, who are perfectly assimilated (where it counts), and I've read too many screeds from the turn of the century about how the Jews and the Poles and the Italians would NEVER assimilate or learn English.

590 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:24:11pm

re: #577 rawmuse

Spiritus es mortus machina

Cool! I had guessed "Spiritum". Maybe was making up a word in Latin. Which is comical because I am completely lost on either language.

Four years of Grammar One gives you an idea.

Seeing a curser move independently on my screen is (I know, but I'm easily entertained!) just eerie to me.

591 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:24:15pm

re: #585 shanec99

Isn't that wonderful?
You know stories like that inspire. Yes, we should tell stories like your great grandfather's to new immigrants, let them know that sharing the American dream includes sharing the language. It is important.
All I am asking is that until they do become proficient they be assisted so that they can become productive members of our community.


Couldn't agree more!

592 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:25:25pm

Speakers are cranked up way too loud. Cats ran off in fear. Wife and kid are annoyed.

Led Zeppelin Knebworth 1979 - Achilles Last Stand

593 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:26:25pm

Hi Sharm,

Send me note.

594 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:27:20pm

re: #580 Thanos

Here's what Babelfish came up with :

φάντασ&# x03BC;α στη μηχανή

The closest cognate to ghost in old Greek is "phantasma". Let me think on the rest, it's been a long time since I read Aristotle and kept the Greek/English dictionary on the nightstand.

595 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:27:34pm

re: #556 realwest

Hey RW - how's it tonight?

FWIW, I have been in the San Diego area for 20 odd years now and was raised up in the SF Bay Area.

Immigration (especially illegal) has always been an issue here as has education of immigrants (including the issue of illegal immigrants).

Maybe I am just getting older, but looking back on my observations, I have to point out that there are two types of immigrants - poor and educated. We have lots of educated immigrants that work as engineers for Sony, HP and in biotech. Their kids come here and learn English very fast and are at the head of the class by the end of a year.

The poor immigrants (mostly illegal from Mexico / Central America) are a completely different story. And that story is what I think most people think of when they think of ESL and bilingual government services and what not.

The US once had an immigration policy that took into account the country of origin of the immigrant and the skills of the immigrant. Were that still the case, we would not be spending billions of dollars importing poverty from Mexico / Central America so we can supply them with social services that they can't get back home. They do work hard and most are very honest people, but we have completely lost our senses around immigration policy - what is in it for the USA to import poverty other than to feel good? Can't we feel good by giving foreign aid?

Anyway, once they are here we are obliged by law to try to educate them. And on that score, I can say that most kids have a cultural incentive to learn "street English" - participating in pop culture demands it. Most of these kids, while getting lousy grades and often susceptible to getting into trouble (gangs, Mexican Mafia, and whatnot) actually learn English via the TV and iPods. So I don't see many down here that are like the one that Zombie described upthread but I am sure they exist (obviously).

596 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:27:47pm

re: #588 Walter L. Newton

Yes, another excellent example.

I loved "The Majestic". Was very Jimmy Stewart to me. I think I'm the only person who loved it. Of course the song, "Stranger on a Shore" was featured. The song did not hurt.

597 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:29:21pm

Interesting, something found while looking up things for FBV:

Ghost in the machine was Gilbert Ryle's term (1949) for "the mind viewed as separate from the body."

598 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:29:48pm

re: #583 realwest
Realwest, I doubt that a large percentage of second generation Americans are not English speakers. In fact if I were to guess I would say that more than 98% are fluent in English and bilingual, but I have no facts to back this up.
My ex wife is from South America, and she spoke only Spanish when she came to the US.
My daughter when she was born had a baby sitter who spoke Spanish to her.
She learned Spanish before she learned English, but she speaks English fluently and is an A student. She is bilingual. Do I have any concerns that my daughter will one day be the Marine Biologist that she aspires to be. Absolutely not.
But in the begininig her mother had to learn English and needed assistance from time to time.

599 DisturbedEma  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:30:06pm

re: #586 JacksonTn

Thank you for stating that ...I believe what you said is what I was trying to get at ...and I feel that the democrats will use this to grow their base even larger ...we employ many many hispanics through the H2A program and most have been with us for over a decade ...I asked them about the election and for the most part they said that they felt most hispanics would vote for whichever party said they would give them drivers licenses and eventually amnesty ...our employees cannot vote but they network and I believed what they said ...the democrats will continue to use them for their purposes ...


with the exception of prop 8

600 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:30:44pm

re: #587 ConservativeAtheist

Try this one.

Sorry. Gotta have the boy soprano as a duet. Gotta.

No Michael Jackson jokes please.

601 DisturbedEma  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:30:44pm

re: #599 DisturbedEma

with the exception of prop 8

THAT did not go as planned. . .

602 BatGuano  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:30:52pm

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

603 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:31:04pm

re: #595 karmic_inquisitor

Many of the kids who are born and raised in Near Iowa, never hear or are expected to respond in English until turn 5 and go to Kindergarten. In their homes, neighborhoods and the businesses they frequent with their parents, they only hear Spanish.

It makes the first years of school very difficult. Some make it, some don't.

604 DisturbedEma  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:32:17pm

re: #602 BatGuano

Sometimes the enemy of my enemy is my enemy.

hello Saudi Arabia. . .

605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:32:35pm

re: #594 Thanos

Thanks!

What's a cognate?

606 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:32:38pm

re: #593 Syrah

Hi Sharm,

Send me note.

Trying that again.

607 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:32:38pm

re: #599 DisturbedEma

with the exception of prop 8

I really do not think that the democrat leaders really cared if Prop 8 passed or not ...they say they care about the gay community but I think they just use them to complete the whole victim thing ...if they really cared they would have made a larger push to piggyback the issue in California with pushing Obama ...they speak out of both sides of their mouths ...

608 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:33:40pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

same derivation, many are from Latin

609 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:34:04pm

re: #607 JacksonTn

I really do not think that the democrat leaders really cared if Prop 8 passed or not ...they say they care about the gay community but I think they just use them to complete the whole victim thing ...if they really cared they would have made a larger push to piggyback the issue in California with pushing Obama ...they speak out of both sides of their mouths ...

I don't know about the leadership--but some of us cared.

610 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:34:55pm

re: #609 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know about the leadership--but some of us cared.

That is why I said "the leadership" ...

611 MandyManners  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:35:10pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks!

What's a cognate?

Telephone/telefono.

612 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:35:42pm

re: #582 Walter L. Newton

It is interesting to look at what words the French provided to English -- many are administrative (like the words "administrative" and "bureaucratique") while many are academic (like "academe"). William the Conqueror wasn't all that bad for England.

613 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:35:55pm

CIGARETTES AND TAMPONS

A man walks into a pharmacy and wanders up & down the aisles. The sales girl notices him and asks him if she can help him. He answers that he is looking for a box of tampons for his wife. She directs him down the correct aisle.

A few minutes later, he deposits a huge bag of cotton balls and a ball of string on the counter. She says, confused, 'Sir, I thought you were looking for some tampons for your wife?

He answers, 'You see, it's like this, yesterday, I sent my wife to the store to get me a carton of cigarettes, and she came back with a tin of tobacco and some rolling papers; cause it's sooo-ooo--oo-ooo much cheaper. So, I figure if I have to roll my own ......... so does she.

614 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:36:59pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks!

What's a cognate?

He's a pain-in-the-ass lizard that used to post here rather frequently, assuming generally contrarian positions just to see whose scales he could rattle. Don't see him around much anymore.

Oh, you said Cognate.... nevermind.

615 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:37:02pm

re: #594 Thanos

The closest cognate to ghost in old Greek is "phantasma". Let me think on the rest, it's been a long time since I read Aristotle and kept the Greek/English dictionary on the nightstand.

Odysseus has section where he is in hell talking to spirits. Would that be a good source for the equivalent of Ghost?

616 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:37:11pm

A couple drove down a country road for several miles, not saying a word. An earlier discussion had led to an argument and neither of them wanted to concede their position.

As they passed a barnyard of mules, goats, and pigs,
the husband asked sarcastically, 'Relatives of yours?'
'Yep,' the wife replied, 'in-laws.'

617 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:37:16pm

You all are very helpful. I feel like such a fucking moron here. What bothers me more?

I'm more well read and smarter than 90% of the people that I interact with personally.

My friends are idiots.

/

Really need to go to bed. It's morning time here!

618 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:37:16pm

re: #603 ggt

Many of the kids who are born and raised in Near Iowa, never hear or are expected to respond in English until turn 5 and go to Kindergarten. In their homes, neighborhoods and the businesses they frequent with their parents, they only hear Spanish.

It makes the first years of school very difficult. Some make it, some don't.

My dad was not allowed to speak Italian....my grandfather came from Italy when he was 15, learned English, owned a grocery store eventually...but the kids were AMERICAN and only English was allowed. My grandparents were now Americans, speaking Italian was just not done anymore once the came to America.

619 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:38:26pm

CREATION

A man said to his wife one day, 'I don't know how you can be
so stupid and so beautiful all at the same time.

'The wife responded, 'Allow me to explain.
God made me beautiful so you would be attracted to me;
God made me stupid so I would be attracted to you!

620 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:38:29pm

re: #611 MandyManners

Telephone/telefono.

I only speak kinda Spanglish ...my husband tells me I think if I put an "o" on the end of anything it is spanish ...listening to me communicate to someone who speaks spanish is crazy ...but I usually get my thoughts across ...eventually ...

621 NelsFree  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:39:14pm

re: #297 shanec99

Not according to the constitution.

The Preamble to the Constitution:

WE THE PEOPLE of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union,

Yes, according to the Constitution.

Shanec, I've reviewed your posts. You are claiming that only government can provide the help for immigrants to live in America. Translators are not a help, they are a crutch. Immigrants have to learn the language of whatever country to which they move. Every example you provided to support your position was was an extreme one, based on Victim status. Stop it. Anyone immigrating to America should learn English and adopt the customs and practises of America. Retaining one's original culture is not assimilation; IT IS DIVERSITY.
You are a Chief Petty Officer!? I'm a Lieutenant Commander! You are setting a shameful example for your Division! So what if someone insulted your accent. YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO NOT BE INSULTED IN AMERICA! "Oh, your feelings were hurt!" Get over it, Chief!
People have come to this country with NOTHING and become successful. Each person has the FREEDOM to choose whether to succeed or fail, and people do fail. Nobody owes you or me anything other than to not interfere in one's success. To what command are you assigned? I need to talk to your C.O.

622 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:39:16pm

re: #605 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks!

What's a cognate?

It's the wrong term to use now that I think on it. I meant "word with like meaning" e.g. "phantasma=spiritus=geist, or ghost" however in etymology the specific meaning of cognate is a word from the same source or root, and Phantasma is not root to either spiritus or geist, however, (and here's the bonus....) Makhana or Mekane both are the Greek root or cognates for "Machina".
So Phantasma, Makhana or Makhane. Now we just need someone who knows enough Greek to put in the "in the" part.
"Phantasma (something) Makhana"

623 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:40:00pm

re: #622 Thanos

I have no elastic in my underwear.

624 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:40:07pm

re: #571 shanec99
Shanec99 - my friend you make a compelling case but for one small matter: Prior immigrants (German, Italian, et.al.) had the same problems and - with help from some english speaking Americans, but mostly on their own, they learned English and they and the generations that followed them were fluent in English (although they did - perhaps - speak the "old" language at home) and they did it WITHOUT government intervention or bi-lingual education.
We have had bi-lingual education (english-spanish ONLY) in this country, to my personal knowledge for over 45 years or the better part of 3 generations and many of the Spanish speaking generations who have followed the Spanish immigrants who did not speak English STILL DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH. That's what I refer to a failure to assimilate.

625 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:40:50pm

re: #623 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I have no elastic in my underwear.

That's ok, I'm not wearing underwear.

626 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:41:32pm

re: #607 JacksonTn
I have mixed feelings about prop 8. On one hand I understand the need for equal treatment under the law, so gays have a right some kind of recognition of thier partnerships, my personal preference be damned.

On the other hand, if gays have a right to have their personal life choices recognized as lawful, then what about polygamists, or better still people engaged in bestiality?

This is a perplexng issue, I understand why gays think that they are discriminated against, and it is difficult to say that they are not, but what about the Latter Day Saint who believes polygamy is sanctioned by God?

How about the the married couple that engages in Bestiality with the family dog, is that to be sanctioned as an alternative living arrangement?

I don't like it when the answers are not clear cut, if gays get legal sanction, to whom or to what behavior does society deny legal sanction?

627 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:42:38pm

re: #622 Thanos

Why would it not be simply "ex"?

Duex ex machina
Phantasma ex machina.

Why not?

Screw it. Bedtime for bozo.

628 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:43:15pm

re: #627 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Why would it not be simply "ex"?

Duex ex machina
Phantasma ex machina.

Why not?

Screw it. Bedtime for bozo.


Because "ex" is Latin, not Greek

629 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:43:21pm

re: #603 ggt

Many of the kids who are born and raised in Near Iowa, never hear or are expected to respond in English until turn 5 and go to Kindergarten. In their homes, neighborhoods and the businesses they frequent with their parents, they only hear Spanish.

It makes the first years of school very difficult. Some make it, some don't.

Same here. Read what Shane99 just posted - I think it illustrates that it is a matter of whether the immigrant is in the "poor" vs "educated" category. FWIW, I think it comes down to Mom and Dad's value system. I know that it was common (before the border tightened a bit) for Mexican families to simply pull the kids out of school for December and January to go back to Mexico to see extended family. Kids get back in February and the teachers have the very frustrating task of getting them back up to speed. Mom and Dad have no concept of that being a problem because they never went to school. Mexico is third world with zero social mobility - the elites there want the poor to stay that way so that menial labor is cheap.

630 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:43:27pm

re: #624 realwest

You're in Charlotte, NC, right?

631 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:44:05pm

re: #626 shanec99

I have mixed feelings about prop 8. On one hand I understand the need for equal treatment under the law, so gays have a right some kind of recognition of thier partnerships, my personal preference be damned.

On the other hand, if gays have a right to have their personal life choices recognized as lawful, then what about polygamists, or better still people engaged in bestiality?

This is a perplexng issue, I understand why gays think that they are discriminated against, and it is difficult to say that they are not, but what about the Latter Day Saint who believes polygamy is sanctioned by God?

How about the the married couple that engages in Bestiality with the family dog, is that to be sanctioned as an alternative living arrangement?

I don't like it when the answers are not clear cut, if gays get legal sanction, to whom or to what behavior does society deny legal sanction?

I was not saying I was for it or against it ... I was only pointing out that the democrats will continue to use the gay community to their advantage ...it is a very divisive issue ...and that is what the democrats thrive on ...

632 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:44:06pm

re: #618 melinwy

My dad was not allowed to speak Italian....my grandfather came from Italy when he was 15, learned English, owned a grocery store eventually...but the kids were AMERICAN and only English was allowed. My grandparents were now Americans, speaking Italian was just not done anymore once the came to America.

I think there were/are a lot of immigrants like that.

633 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:45:21pm

re: #621 NelsFree

"Translators are not a help, they are a crutch."

true!

634 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:45:43pm

re: #622 Thanos

It's the wrong term to use now that I think on it. I meant "word with like meaning" e.g. "phantasma=spiritus=geist, or ghost" however in etymology the specific meaning of cognate is a word from the same source or root, and Phantasma is not root to either spiritus or geist, however, (and here's the bonus....) Makhana or Mekane both are the Greek root or cognates for "Machina".
So Phantasma, Makhana or Makhane. Now we just need someone who knows enough Greek to put in the "in the" part.
"Phantasma (something) Makhana"

Phantasma apo mechanes

635 Opilio  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:45:47pm

re: #621 NelsFree

People have come to this country with NOTHING and become successful.

e.g. The Governator. He was able to learn English, sort of.

636 BatGuano  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:48:44pm

re: #604 DisturbedEma
Yuppers.

637 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:48:45pm

re: #632 ggt

yet now it seems we are to cater to the immigrants instead of them trying to assimilate to the American dialect. I have never understood the reasoning, if my grandparents (and tons more as RW pointed out) could do this, why is it now we must cater to them instead of letting them find their way? Working for things (assimilation) always means more to a person than something just given. I think that is a basic human trait.

638 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:49:24pm

re: #629 karmic_inquisitor

Same here. Read what Shane99 just posted - I think it illustrates that it is a matter of whether the immigrant is in the "poor" vs "educated" category. FWIW, I think it comes down to Mom and Dad's value system. I know that it was common (before the border tightened a bit) for Mexican families to simply pull the kids out of school for December and January to go back to Mexico to see extended family. Kids get back in February and the teachers have the very frustrating task of getting them back up to speed. Mom and Dad have no concept of that being a problem because they never went to school. Mexico is third world with zero social mobility - the elites there want the poor to stay that way so that menial labor is cheap.

Sad, but I think a lot of immigrant parents consider school free daycare. Many, Many don't. Parochial schools thrive in our area--many are nearly all latino. IMHO, traditionally most families are not truly assimiliated until the 3rd generation.

639 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:50:46pm

re: #634 Walter L. Newton

Phantasma apo mechanes

Thanks Walter, as your reward I'll tell you that the first appearance of the word "machinery" was in theater, in 1687, referring to the various devices used backstage to manipulate the sets and scenery.

640 JacksonTn  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:51:00pm

Good Night Lizards ...thanks for the information ...

641 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:51:14pm

re: #621 NelsFree
I have never said only, never.

I said that government has a responsibility to act in the best interest of her citizens. The interests include ensuring the delivering appropriate medical care to people receiving them, social services, protection (police). There are times when the community cannot provide them, and government must act to protect the people, even if they are a small minority. This includes teaching English to non English speakers and providing them translation services while they are learning.

If private organizations can do this too and take some of the burden of government, then I say Bravo, and I say thank God. But if there are no available private organizations to do this, then it is in the government's and communitiy's interest that these people learn English and are provided assistance in translating information while they are mastering the language.

642 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:51:30pm

If you could move to a country where the government would provide you with everything you needed, and you could live a life that is a hundred times better than where you are now, wouldn't you go?

643 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:52:12pm

re: #637 melinwy

yet now it seems we are to cater to the immigrants instead of them trying to assimilate to the American dialect. I have never understood the reasoning, if my grandparents (and tons more as RW pointed out) could do this, why is it now we must cater to them instead of letting them find their way? Working for things (assimilation) always means more to a person than something just given. I think that is a basic human trait.

white guilt.

644 BryanS  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:53:01pm

I'm more often on the "wrong" side on immigration from the perspective of many on the right. However, I have to say that I do think everyone who immigrates to this country must learn to speak its language.

Just ask the Canadians how dual languages is working out for them.

645 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:53:07pm

re: #589 SanFranciscoZionist Of course there were screeds about Jews, Italians and others. All immigrants - at least the first generation - have had to break through stereotyping. But I have indeed interacted frequently and in a variety of ways with younger people, 3rd generation Americans who can't speak very much english at all - less than I can (or used to be able) to speak Spanish and it's certainly NOT because they are too dumb to learn English, it's because the fucking politicians want them to depend on the politicians to get by. Having road signs in Spanish and in English, having instructions and exams for motor vehicle applicants in both english and spanish, just as examples, is NOT a great motivator for someone not inclined to otherwise do so, to LEARN english.
And that leads to a lack of assimilation into the melting pot of America. And keeps those people dependent on the Politicians which is what this is really all about.

646 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:53:34pm

re: #639 Thanos

Thanks Walter, as your reward I'll tell you that the first appearance of the word "machinery" was in theater, in 1687, referring to the various devices used backstage to manipulate the sets and scenery.

Er, I know that. But it also goes right back to Greek theatre, BC, in reference to the crane mechanism that would lower an actor portraying a god. But, I think you know that.

647 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:53:52pm

ugh, it's 0100 here, time to get some sleeps. g'nite all.

648 Randall Gross  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:55:05pm

re: #646 Walter L. Newton

Yeppers, & I was speficially referencing the word "machinery" as it first appeared in print.

649 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:55:25pm

re: #641 shanec99

Shane99 --As I understand our form of government. .

It is governments role to get out of the way and not interfere in citizen affairs.

What you describe is a pseudo-parent, not a government.

650 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:55:30pm

re: #624 realwest

Shanec99 - my friend you make a compelling case but for one small matter: Prior immigrants (German, Italian, et.al.) had the same problems and - with help from some english speaking Americans, but mostly on their own, they learned English and they and the generations that followed them were fluent in English (although they did - perhaps - speak the "old" language at home) and they did it WITHOUT government intervention or bi-lingual education.
We have had bi-lingual education (english-spanish ONLY) in this country, to my personal knowledge for over 45 years or the better part of 3 generations and many of the Spanish speaking generations who have followed the Spanish immigrants who did not speak English STILL DON'T SPEAK ENGLISH. That's what I refer to a failure to assimilate.


The failure of bi-lingual education annoys me to no end. Children should learn English as a second language if they are not native speakers and encouraged to become fluent so that they can get education in English as the primary language in school. Limiting them to ESL denies them so many oppportunities.
Bi-lingual education failed in that it was satisfied when kids could communicate sufficiently to play soccer. It did not prepare them for life beyond the confines of the local school and barrio.

651 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:56:03pm

Immigration will become a real hot topic if the Mexican government collapses. That place is becoming a real hell-hole.

652 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:56:23pm

re: #643 ggt

something we need to get over. My dad was considered "not white" he was full 100% Italian, moms mom didn't like him because of that, yet he persevered, worked like his dad did and his brothers and sisters did, so I have never felt white guilt, and never understood the racial thing at all, I was raised that people were people regardless of the hue of their skin.

653 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:56:34pm

re: #626 shanec99

We have a challenge to Prop 8 back in our courts here in Ca on the basis that, even though it is now a Constitutional Amendment (state), the law is so inherently discriminatory that it contradicts longer standing parts of the same Constitution.

The "right to marry" for homosexuals was won here on the basis that it was a fundamental human right to get married and that there is no basis for excluding gay adults from enjoying that right.

I regurgitate all of that because if the challenge ends up winning, there is no way that a polygamist can be denied the same right. None. If the members of the marriage are all adults and enter in freely, who is the state to deny them that human right yet grant it to homosexuals? The "right to marry" that these judges have cited is in a UN human rights declaration which does not limit that right to two people precisely because there are UN member nations where polygamy is legal (Arab states). Furthermore, there is a long history of polygamy having been practiced in the world -- much more so than gay marriage.

So those that are arguing for gay marriage who say that the polygamy argument is a red herring are either dishonest or ignorant of what is being argued on their behalf.

654 Render  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:58:01pm

re: #621 NelsFree

You sure you need to talk to his CO?

(your first paragraph was fine and I agree wholeheartedly with it, the second paragraph was not so fine.)

LC, it's a teachable moment, and while threats can be educational, they often do not teach what was intended.

BB64,
R

655 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:58:05pm

re: #630 Fat Bastard Vegetarian Suburb of it, yes. Why do you ask?

656 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:58:25pm

re: #642 Racer X

If you could move to a country where the government would provide you with everything you needed, and you could live a life that is a hundred times better than where you are now, wouldn't you go?

Sure, if there were such a country ... sadly there is not ...

657 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:58:42pm

re: #653 karmic_inquisitor

We have a challenge to Prop 8 back in our courts here in Ca on the basis that, even though it is now a Constitutional Amendment (state), the law is so inherently discriminatory that it contradicts longer standing parts of the same Constitution.

The "right to marry" for homosexuals was won here on the basis that it was a fundamental human right to get married and that there is no basis for excluding gay adults from enjoying that right.

I regurgitate all of that because if the challenge ends up winning, there is no way that a polygamist can be denied the same right. None. If the members of the marriage are all adults and enter in freely, who is the state to deny them that human right yet grant it to homosexuals? The "right to marry" that these judges have cited is in a UN human rights declaration which does not limit that right to two people precisely because there are UN member nations where polygamy is legal (Arab states). Furthermore, there is a long history of polygamy having been practiced in the world -- much more so than gay marriage.

So those that are arguing for gay marriage who say that the polygamy argument is a red herring are either dishonest or ignorant of what is being argued on their behalf.

Polygamy, although specifically outlawed by the Supreme Court back in the 1880's?) is still a misdemeanor in many States. (basically anywhere those whacky cultists tend to settle, ahem). So, yes, I think you are right, it will be challenged in the courts.

658 rawmuse  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:59:00pm

re: #651 Syrah

Immigration will become a real hot topic if the Mexican government collapses. That place is becoming a real hell-hole.

IMHO that time is either now, or soon.

659 Inquisitive  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:59:42pm

re: #571 shanec99

Good evening my friend. I believe that failing to learn English in America limits an immigrant's upward mobility and stifles thier potential. I also believe that a person does not immediately aquire language skills upon crossing the border, it takes time, and while they are learning the language it is imperative that the government do all it can to help these people to assimilate. So we (by we I mean the government) must provide assitance, this includes providing language education, traslation services and providing necessary information to meet civic responsibillities (no smoking signs at gas stations for example or around hospitals where oxygen is in use).
If we fail to provide these services we imperil the entire community and impede the progress of people who will one day become citizens.

Been reading your other post too..regarding health care....crimes....why stop here....they are going to need to travel to hospitals, gov. building, ect....do the road signs and maps all need to be in different languages. Shopping....groceries labeled and all ingredients listed in different langauges....just in case they have food allergy. .......sorry I could go on and on....just on your reasoning.....they need to learn the English language as soon as possible.....let communities help them until they do.....and alot of the problem now is ......Some just don't want to learn...and that is not good.

660 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 10:59:53pm

re: #652 melinwy

Yep, we do need to get over it.

661 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:00:30pm

Due to the climate of political correctness now pervading America, Kentuckians, Tennesseans and West Virginians will no longer be referred to as 'HILLBILLIES'. You must now refer to them as APPALACHIAN-AMERICANS.

And furthermore . . .

HOW TO SPEAK ABOUT WOMEN AND BE POLITICALLY CORRECT:

1. She is not a 'BABE' or a 'CHICK' - She is a' BREASTED AMERICAN.'
2. She is not ' EASY ' - She is 'HORIZONTALLY ACCESSIBLE.'
3. She is not a 'DUMB BLONDE' - She is a 'LIGHT-HAIRED DETOUR OFF THE INFORMATION SUPERHIGHWAY.'
4. She has not 'BEEN AROUND' - She is a 'PREVIOUSLY-ENJOYED COMPANION.'
5. She does not 'NAG' you - She becomes 'VERBALLY REPETITIVE.'
6. She is not a 'TWO-BIT HOOKER' - She is a 'LOW COST PROVIDER.'


HOW TO SPEAK ABOUT MEN AND BE POLITICALLY CORRECT:

1. He does not have a ' BEER GUT' - He has developed a
'LIQUID GRAIN STORAGE FACILITY.'
2. He is not a 'BAD DANCER' - He is 'OVERLY CAUCASIAN.'
3. He does not 'GET LOST ALL THE TIME' - He ' INVESTIGATES ALTERNATIVE DESTINATIONS.'
4. He is not 'BALDING' - He is in 'FOLLICLE REGRESSION.'
5. He does not act like a 'TOTAL ASS' - He develops a case of
'RECTAL-CRANIAL INVERSION.'
6. It's not his 'CRACK' you see hanging out of his pants - It's
'REAR CLEAVAGE.'

662 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:00:44pm

re: #598 shanec99 With all due respect my friend, we have had diametrically different experiences then. I was totally fluent in conversational Spanish at one time. Indeed I DREAMED in Spanish at one time. And I lived in NYC for 35 years and my experience is that the majority - I'm tempted to say the overwhelming majority of Spanish speaking people in NYC are not even conversationally fluent in English.

663 NY Nana  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:01:10pm

Drive by....trust me on this: 1 nearly 2 1/2 year old grandson can wear out 2 grandparents who are his willing targets!

The hardest part? Keeping a straight face, but it was worth every second. He fell asleep on NY Grampa's lap while he was reading him the third of the 3 books he is allowed to be read at bedtime, and that he picks out, and NY Grampa didn't realize he was sleeping, nor did I! Daughter and son in law come home, freak out at his not being in bed, but look at him. Daughter scooped him up, put him in his bed, and we went into the living room, and were ROTLF! We are so glad that we weren't fired! ;) It is the best 'job' on the planet!

Sweet dreams, all. G'nite!

664 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:02:15pm

re: #661 Racer X

6. It's not his 'CRACK' you see hanging out of his pants - It's
'REAR CLEAVAGE.'

LOL

665 NelsFree  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:02:15pm

re: #641 shanec99

I have never said only, never.

I said that government has a responsibility to act in the best interest of her citizens. The interests include ensuring the delivering appropriate medical care to people receiving them, social services, protection (police). There are times when the community cannot provide them, and government must act to protect the people, even if they are a small minority. This includes teaching English to non English speakers and providing them translation services while they are learning.

If private organizations can do this too and take some of the burden of government, then I say Bravo, and I say thank God. But if there are no available private organizations to do this, then it is in the government's and communitiy's interest that these people learn English and are provided assistance in translating information while they are mastering the language.


SOCIALISM! You are advocating Big Brother taking care of the ones who have not yet learned English! Government's best role IS TO GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE PEOPLE so they can succeed or fail! Failure happens! You are advocating socialized medicine, which has failed every time it has been tried! You are advocating the minority over the majority, which destroys social cohesion! VICTIM VICTIM VICTIM! Are you promoting these values to your LPOs and Junior enlisted!? What command are you assigned! What is your rating? Are you really a Sailor?!

666 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:02:25pm

re: #658 rawmuse

IMHO that time is either now, or soon.

I wonder what The One and his Happy Unicorn entourage will do when/if civil war breaks out?

667 Racer X  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:02:38pm

re: #656 Archimedes

Sure, if there were such a country ... sadly there is not ...

If you are a dirt poor Mexican farmer there is.

668 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:02:43pm

re: #660 ggt

afraid it is going to take awhile, too may people are susceptible to TV, commercials all the other propaganda out there to make us feel guilty, for no other reason that to promote their agenda.

669 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:03:48pm

re: #651 Syrah

Immigration will become a real hot topic if the Mexican government collapses. That place is becoming a real hell-hole.

We have radio stations here in San Diego that are in English but actually transmit from Mexico. That is how I get Rush Limbaugh, for example. It is cheap and avoids US regulations.

But they have to run public service announcements for the Mexican government. They now are required to do them in English when it is an English language station.

Well we are getting some very interesting announcements now. Like the formation of a new human rights commission which will have members visit your home for a survey, and that you should give them the information as an act of good citizenship. Or the new crime reporting system.

That place is coming apart and the government is preparing for martial law.

670 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:04:01pm

re: #621 NelsFree
Commander, I got over it a long time ago, and I made sure that when I got the chance to use TA and earn my BSC and MPA I did. I never complained, I busted my ass, went to school at night and I kept going no matter what. Because I have succeded it means that I have an appreciation of what others feel and I never want anyone to feel as small as I used to feel.
Today I am prepared to take on the challenges of the larger community precisely because I have assistance. Assistance is all I am asking for people who are making the transition from non English speakers to fluency.
The success I have had came because I worked hard and also because I had help. No one should be denied the help that I received.

671 Archimedes  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:04:55pm

re: #667 Racer X

If you are a dirt poor Mexican farmer there is.

To the Mexicans we gringos are living in paradise!

672 jorline  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:05:01pm

Pills kicking in now,,,good night, lizards

673 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:06:02pm

re: #641 shanec99
shanec99 - this is probably my penultimate post of the evening, but why is it that ONLY spanish speaking immigrants seem to require the kinds of assistance you're talking about the government giving to them?
Lord knows that when the Jews, Germans,Italians, Irish and all emmigrated to America we most assuredly did not have signs, drivers license applications, VOTER registrations, in English and in Hebrew or Yiddish or German or Italian or Irish and all. But somehow THEY made it and THEY assimilated all without the benefits of bi-lingual education.

674 stevieray  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:06:30pm

re: #624 realwest

That is the problem.

The present-day education/social welfare machine got their claws into the immigration assimilation process -- undoubtedly to improve it (at first) -- and refuse to let go, despite ample evidence they have not helped.

The immersion style of past generations, while not perfect, worked better than the bi-lingual model of today. The proof is the astounding heights America reached without the "aid" of this new bureaucracy, with its new and improved systems.

675 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:06:39pm

re: #669 karmic_inquisitor

We have radio stations here in San Diego that are in English but actually transmit from Mexico. That is how I get Rush Limbaugh, for example. It is cheap and avoids US regulations.

But they have to run public service announcements for the Mexican government. They now are required to do them in English when it is an English language station.

Well we are getting some very interesting announcements now. Like the formation of a new human rights commission which will have members visit your home for a survey, and that you should give them the information as an act of good citizenship. Or the new crime reporting system.

That place is coming apart and the government is preparing for martial law.

Our economic difficulties may help push them over the edge.

Desperate people do dangerous things.

676 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:06:59pm

re: #665 NelsFree

SOCIALISM! You are advocating Big Brother taking care of the ones who have not yet learned English! Government's best role IS TO GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE PEOPLE so they can succeed or fail! Failure happens! You are advocating socialized medicine, which has failed every time it has been tried! You are advocating the minority over the majority, which destroys social cohesion! VICTIM VICTIM VICTIM! Are you promoting these values to your LPOs and Junior enlisted!? What command are you assigned! What is your rating? Are you really a Sailor?!

I think he is too recently out of our wonderful educational system and hasn't had to pay his own way long enough. Kudo's he is here -- it is a good place to learn.

677 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:07:21pm

re: #668 melinwy

afraid it is going to take awhile, too may people are susceptible to TV, commercials all the other propaganda out there to make us feel guilty, for no other reason that to promote their agenda.

yep!

678 melinwy  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:08:42pm

re: #673 realwest

shanec99 - this is probably my penultimate post of the evening, but why is it that ONLY spanish speaking immigrants seem to require the kinds of assistance you're talking about the government giving to them?
Lord knows that when the Jews, Germans,Italians, Irish and all emmigrated to America we most assuredly did not have signs, drivers license applications, VOTER registrations, in English and in Hebrew or Yiddish or German or Italian or Irish and all. But somehow THEY made it and THEY assimilated all without the benefits of bi-lingual education.

excellent point rw
off to bed thanks for all the lizards comments ya'll are just so dang smart and savvy...such a pleasure and privilege to be a lizard.

679 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:08:55pm

re: #649 ggt

Shane99 --As I understand our form of government. .

It is governments role to get out of the way and not interfere in citizen affairs.

What you describe is a pseudo-parent, not a government.

Again here is what you forget, our form of government is one that acts in the interests of its citizens. Preventing efficient communication hinders every aspect of life in our nation, and government has a responsibility to ensure that we are one nation, not a conglomoration of disparate communities. Teach people English and provide them translation services while they are learning. Effective communication does not weaken us.

680 NelsFree  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:09:02pm

re: #654 Render

You sure you need to talk to his CO?


When I was an MM2, I went to pick up a micrometer that had been calibrated on the Tender. The Calibration Tech had inscribed, "Allah hu Ackbar" in green felt pen on the wooden box cover. I asked what it was, and he said,"I'm just stating what I feel." I did nothing. My LPO looked at it, asked what it was, and I told him what happened. He went to our Chief. I never heard the outcome. This was in 1980.
Yes, someone should speak to his C.O. Chief Petty Officers are the backbone of the US Navy, and if he's spouting this "Victim" "Big Brother" crap to his Division, he needs a talking to.

681 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:09:16pm

re: #675 Syrah

Our economic difficulties may help push them over the edge.

Desperate people do dangerous things.

Obama may be forced to finish that border fence. Unless he wants to host armed incursions and cross border raids by "insurgent" groups.

682 BryanS  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:09:56pm

I just don't see any collapse of the Mexican government as some recent comments suggest. The drug lord problem is only becoming more visible precisely because their government is actually attempting to address it. For the past three decades or so, business as usual meant that the law did not even attempt to challenge the drug lords.

683 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:10:35pm

re: #681 karmic_inquisitor

Obama may be forced to finish that border fence. Unless he wants to host armed incursions and cross border raids by "insurgent" groups.

More Democrat voters.

684 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:11:58pm

Going to BED.

Folks, there is nothing wrong with today's immigrants. They are good people, like ourselves, and our parents, and our grandparents.

God bless 'em all

I need to drink less Chardonnay.

May God continue, in her mysterious and inimitable way, to bless the United States of America.

685 Syrah  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:12:46pm

re: #681 karmic_inquisitor

Obama may be forced to finish that border fence. Unless he wants to host armed incursions and cross border raids by "insurgent" groups.

The question is, will he build it before, or after the flood?

The armed incursions and cross border raids by "insurgent" group will come after the population flees the initial chaos.

686 Render  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:13:58pm

re: #665NelsFree

Are you drinking this evening?

WORLD
COMING
DOWN,
R

687 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:14:01pm

re: #684 SanFranciscoZionist

May God continue, in her mysterious and inimitable way, to bless the United States of America.

I saw that.

688 NelsFree  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:15:17pm

Dear Folks,

I'm done, good night. Good night Chief Shanec, thank you for your service to the United States. Thank you, Realwest, for some very effective talking points. Good Night Sharmuta, I'm still waiting for that picture of you with the Clue-by-Four.

689 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:15:30pm

re: #665 NelsFree

SOCIALISM! You are advocating Big Brother taking care of the ones who have not yet learned English! Government's best role IS TO GET OUT OF THE WAY OF THE PEOPLE so they can succeed or fail! Failure happens! You are advocating socialized medicine, which has failed every time it has been tried! You are advocating the minority over the majority, which destroys social cohesion! VICTIM VICTIM VICTIM! Are you promoting these values to your LPOs and Junior enlisted!? What command are you assigned! What is your rating? Are you really a Sailor?!


Nels, please stop throwing a tantrum, if you want to discuss an issue on the merits I will be pleased to debate you.
Yes I am a Sailor, a Navy Chief Hospital Corpsman. I hold a BSC in Health Care Management (Cum Laude) and a MPA with a concentration in Health Care Administration, all paid for by TA.
I am not advocating any group be put at an advantage over another, what I am asking for is that all people be given an opportunity to learn the language so that they can communicate effectively, and while they are learning they be provided assistance with translation.
The only thing I am advocating is good communication between people to reduce the incidence of misunderstanding that can lead to disasters. If you want to take a position in opposition to efficient communication then go ahead. I want us bound as one nation, not ghettoized communities, and the way for this to happen is for people to learn the language.
But crossing the border does not make people fluent English speakers immediately, they have to learn, and while they are learning they need assistance with translation. Good grief, that should not be difficult to comprehend.

690 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:17:18pm

re: #680 NelsFree
Nels, you are behaving like an ignoramus, read what I have said. If you disagree that people should be given the tools to communicate effectively then God bless you.

691 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:18:13pm

re: #676 ggt
and #665 NelsFree For what little this is worth, I think you are both judging shanec99 incorrectly - he is in the US Navy, he is a Corpsman, he does work hard at what he does, he does pay his taxes and he has earned all that he has accomplished.
And he serves our nation - and I'm damned proud of him for doing that.
And I honestly think you ought to either rethink your arguments or try to make your positions clear without resorting to calling him a Socialist or a Nanny stater. FOR GOD'S SAKE HE SIMPLY DISAGREES WITH YOU (and, apparently with me) over bilingual education as a requirement. That's all this is.
Please - take a breath, drink a little cool water and review what he has posted and then respond, hopefully avoiding the ad hominen attacks.

692 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:19:14pm

Regarding translation and printing instructions in other languages ...

The euqal protection clause of the US Constitution has been used to essentially force local governments to make whatever basic services it makes available to citizens available to "residents". Some of those basic services require communicating with the recipient and, when reasonable, the service provider is expected to furnish some communicative capacity. If you are in Southern California, that means Spanish speakers on staff. If you are in Wyoming then you probably don't need a Samoan speaker (unless there is, for some strange reason, a group of Samoans living in the area).

Add to that the tort industry -- if you are a hospital near a Vietnamese immigrant community, you should have some signage in the emergency room that says "if you don't speak or understand English, let us know by pointing to this sign." The hospital will have a translator on call that they pay by the hour as the need arises.

They don't do this as a political gesture or for correctness - they do it because the law has basically compelled them to do it. Especially hospitals, police, fire protection and child welfare.

693 BryanS  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:20:11pm

re: #689 shanec99

I understand the sentiment, but immigrants--especially those from Mexico who are not escaping a repressive government and can plan their move--should be learning English in preparation to moving to a new country. At a minimum, they should be learning English in a huge hurry once they get here.

Wouldn't you take that preparatory step if you planned on moving to another country where English was not the language?

694 realwest  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:20:20pm

Well y'all it's way past my bedtime and I'm going to sleep! I hope you all have a GREAT EVENING/EARLY MORNING and that I get the chance to see you all down the road.

Good night, all.

695 itellu3times  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:21:25pm

re: #597 Thanos

Interesting, something found while looking up things for FBV:

Ghost in the machine was Gilbert Ryle's term (1949) for "the mind viewed as separate from the body."

I knew that. But it's not that he though the mind should be integrated with the body, so much as the body had behaviors and their was not really such a thing as mind at all.

696 solomonpanting  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:21:43pm

Adios, real.

697 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:24:09pm

re: #679 shanec99

Again here is what you forget, our form of government is one that acts in the interests of its citizens. Preventing efficient communication hinders every aspect of life in our nation, and government has a responsibility to ensure that we are one nation, not a conglomoration of disparate communities. Teach people English and provide them translation services while they are learning. Effective communication does not weaken us.

Our government was designed to be our servant. Not to dicate to us what is best for us. You can rationalize your way around this a million ways, but every program conducted on the national level --in our best interest--takes us one step closer to socialism.

If the private sector is able to do this (which the past has shown it it can--as generations of immigrants have come to this country and thrived) there is NO reason for government to get involved.

Like it or not, one of the reason this country is so great is that it is/was a meritocracy. Swim or sink. Those that can find a way to succeed will do so. The rest don't. Today, we think we are "responsible" for the rest, which we are not. By helping them, we are only contributing to there increased numbers and our own demise.

By "helping" on the national level, we only decrease the incentive to succeed.

698 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:26:46pm

re: #693 BryanS

I understand the sentiment, but immigrants--especially those from Mexico who are not escaping a repressive government and can plan their move--should be learning English in preparation to moving to a new country. At a minimum, they should be learning English in a huge hurry once they get here.

Wouldn't you take that preparatory step if you planned on moving to another country where English was not the language?


You and I are in agreement. Yes they should learn English as soon as they can.

699 karmic_inquisitor  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:29:17pm

re: #682 BryanS

I just don't see any collapse of the Mexican government as some recent comments suggest. The drug lord problem is only becoming more visible precisely because their government is actually attempting to address it. For the past three decades or so, business as usual meant that the law did not even attempt to challenge the drug lords.

Beheadings in TJ. Gaza like tunnel system under the border. Cops slain with impunity. It is escalating. The drug lords are trying to demonstrate that they run the place. They do. And they won't go away without a big fight.

700 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:29:24pm

re: #691 realwest

I thank shane for his service. I also recognize (if I understand what he has said correctly) he received his training as part of his service. That is very cool.

What I am saying, is he didn't get it for free, he worked for it.

701 stevieray  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:30:04pm

re: #684 SanFranciscoZionist

Too bad your going to bed, because I want to correct a grave error in your outlook:

Folks, there is nothing wrong with today's immigrants. They are good people, like ourselves, and our parents, and our grandparents.

This has nothing to do with "good people"... the majority of people in the world are good people, yet the majority of people in the world live in relative poverty and oppression. That is due to the culture of the nation they live in, not the goodness or badness of the people in that nation. Many times, good people, in trying to do good things, perpetuate problems.

When you get right down to brass tacks, every nation is defined by the culture of the people. Poor nations are poor because that is the best they can be with the culture they have, Oppressive nations are oppressive because that is the best they can be with the culture they have. Yet in each example of poor or oppressive nation you can name, the majority of the people will be good people.

702 Gretchen G.Tiger  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:30:56pm

Charles posted a new thread upstairs --my clue to get some sleep.

weet dreams all.

703 BryanS  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:33:11pm

re: #699 karmic_inquisitor

It is escalating, but only because government forces are pushing back on the drug lords. Yes the drug lords are pushing back, and yes it is possible they might win. However losing the battle only means the status quo--government of the drug lords, by the drug lords, and for the drug lords.

704 shanec99  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:33:42pm

re: #697 ggt

Our government was designed to be our servant. Not to dicate to us what is best for us. You can rationalize your way around this a million ways, but every program conducted on the national level --in our best interest--takes us one step closer to socialism.

If the private sector is able to do this (which the past has shown it it can--as generations of immigrants have come to this country and thrived) there is NO reason for government to get involved.

Like it or not, one of the reason this country is so great is that it is/was a meritocracy. Swim or sink. Those that can find a way to succeed will do so. The rest don't. Today, we think we are "responsible" for the rest, which we are not. By helping them, we are only contributing to there increased numbers and our own demise.

By "helping" on the national level, we only decrease the incentive to succeed.

There we go, now we are getting to the point... our governement is to be our servant, that is provide us the services we need in order that our community and nation can thrive and prosper.
One way to ensure that a community fails is to limit the transfer of information, put up barriers to effective communication.
Yes, I say, immigrants should learn English, it is to the advantage of all of us, but we have to also recognize that upon arrival they will not be fluent, and the way to make them better communicators is to teach them. If they have not aquired the skills then we help them until they have.
I would hate to be in a crowd of non Eglish speakers and have a heart attack and no one could call an ambulance because they could not speak English. Helping people to learn English and providing them translation services while they are learning it benefits all of us.

705 BryanS  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:38:46pm

re: #698 shanec99

We do agree about the need to learn English, but I disagree that government should put up Spanish road signs, translate things, etc. Doing these things allows people to get by without ever learning English. Kind of like how the left argued that welfare reform would lead to more poverty, when really removing the crutch caused many people to learn how to be more self sufficient.

706 yenta-fada  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:39:01pm

re: #644 BryanS

Good point about the dual language business in Canada. Quebec is a unilingual provice in a bilingual country. Talk about ridiculous. They have "language police" who go around making sure that no retail business has English language signs; they roam the halls in schools to make sure the kids are not speaking English. They do not have to provide ANY legal or government services in English. So, there you go. Give them what they want and they steal of all YOUR rights. To get a job in the Federal government, even if nobody within a thousand miles speaks French, you HAVE to be bilingual. The French bitch and moan about their 'identity' lost and then they grab way more than their share of Federal money. It is childish, vindictive, bigoted, and ultimately a LOSER mentality. When the economy suffers more, they will yell louder that they are 'special' and demand to be taking care of. It's Canada's other form of dhimmitude.

707 LGoPs  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:43:44pm

I got off the boat as a 3 year old, with my mom and dad, neither of whom could speak a word of English. An American family (God Bless them) had sponsored us and my father worked menial jobs in Oklahoma until he learned enough English to move us to Chicago, where he provided us a comfortable life.
English is my second language but I speak it like a native. Bottom line is neither my parents or I asked for assistance in our native language. We were grateful to be Americans and assimilated. I paid back part of that debt by serving in the miltary.
I've spent many years living in foreign countries and I respect their cultures and adapt to them and their language, not the other way around. It is not an unreasonable request to expect the same of immigrants coming here.
Bottom line is that if we are going to service a particular immigrant group we need to service all of them. I get annoyed that ATM machines don't offer selections in my native language, or in that of my Polish, Russian, German or Vietnamese friends. Why are we discriminated against? Hell, I have a friend who's a Navajo and since their language is unwritten, I damn well demand that Navajo speakers be positioned at each ATM in order to provide him full, unfettered service.
Where does it end?

708 stevieray  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:44:37pm

re: #704 shanec99

Shane, you keep missing the point. What you are saying is great, in a theoretical way, but the reality on the ground is different.

Far too many immigrants today are not using those services as a temporary tool. They are using them as a permanent system to avoid assimilation... and the problem is extending into second and third generation children of immigrants.

If the services we are providing are aiding in the Balkanization of the nation, then they are doing more harm than good... and should be scaled back or eliminated.

709 Unakite  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:55:29pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I think FAIR barked up the wrong tree here. Nashville has the largets Kurdish population in the nation, and from what I've seen, most Kurds want to thrive as Americans.

Late to the party, but I had no idea that Nashville had a large Kurdish population.

710 Rustler  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:58:06pm

re: #709 Unakite Something like 5% of the people in Nashville are Kurds. It has the single largest kurdish community in the US.

711 LGoPs  Fri, Jan 23, 2009 11:59:38pm

re: #3 MandyManners

I think FAIR barked up the wrong tree here. Nashville has the largets Kurdish population in the nation, and from what I've seen, most Kurds want to thrive as Americans.

As long as they can live near the Wheys.
As everyone knows, Kurds and Wheys get along well together........
:)

712 Tamron  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:05:05am

re: #708 stevieray

Shane, you keep missing the point. What you are saying is great, in a theoretical way, but the reality on the ground is different.

Far too many immigrants today are not using those services as a temporary tool. They are using them as a permanent system to avoid assimilation... and the problem is extending into second and third generation children of immigrants.

If the services we are providing are aiding in the Balkanization of the nation, then they are doing more harm than good... and should be scaled back or eliminated.


Fascinating thread. Each one of you appears to be correct to a large degree, based upon your own experience. This message by stevieray seems to hit the nail pretty accurately on the head, because the missing ingredient IS the fact that the illegal immigrants have too strongly biased their peers into thinking and acting like THEY CAN BREAK THE LAW AND CONTINUALLY THUMB THEIR NOSES AT THE USA, WITH IMPUNITY. Giving them handouts, only rewards and prolongs their screw-you criminal attitude.

My grandparents came from Sweden in the late 1800's, and they immigrated to Minnesota where there was a strong Swedish community. They learned enough English to get their citizenship papers and also to get along with the non-Swedish members of their community, but even as late as the 1950's they still reverted to their native language when talking amongst themselves. However, the last thing they would have done is try and sneak into the country as an uninvited guest, keep breaking the laws while living here, and not learn the language.

English just isn't that hard to learn, IF someone genuinely has the desire. The immigrants referred to in this thread, simply don't seem to care. It's an attitude problem.
.

713 Rustler  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:07:05am

re: #710 RustlerBecause of its relatively low cost of living and large job market, Nashville has become a popular city for immigrants.[18] Nashville’s foreign-born population more than tripled in size between 1990 and 2000, increasing from 12,662 to 39,596. Large groups of Mexicans, Kurds, Vietnamese, Laotians, Arabs, and Somalis call Nashville home, among other groups.[19] Nashville has the largest Kurdish community in the United States, numbering approximately 11,000.[20] During the Iraqi election of 2005, Nashville was one of the few international locations where Iraqi expatriates could vote.[21] The American Jewish community in Nashville dates back over 150 years ago,[citation needed] and numbers about 6,500 (2001). from WIKI Just incase anyone wonders where I got my numbers. 11,000 is close to 5% of 600,000.

714 tyree  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:09:07am

Our voter pamphlets are already printed in two languages, all of the time, everywhere. Legal English is not American Conversational English. The voter pamphlet has an interpretations of the law translated in American English for the the voter, but the actual Legal English law often means something different than the interpretation. Once you translate this into another language, we wind up with a situation in which even more people will be confused as to what they are voting on. A decade ago we were talking to the Dominguez family across the street and we compared voter information that arrived at our house in English and at their house in Spanish. The Dominguez family did not speak fluent Spanish, which, incidentally, almost got Mr. Dominguez fired because everyone else in his department did. Anyway, after we translated the Spanish voter pamphlet we found out that it said very different things about the bond and initiatives on the ballot. We need one language in the country for the governing of this country. To do otherwise would give way to much additional power to Nancy Pelosi's Culture of Corruption.

715 Render  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 12:14:06am

re: #693 BryanS

Yes and no. I'll attempt to explain...

My great grandparents escaped from Europe (Poland - 1920) with nothing more then the clothes on their backs. They learned English only after they arrived here as refugees from a war and several pogroms.

My great-grandfather (fathers-fathers-father), was a carpenter and blacksmith from Poland who made all of his own tools, spoke half a dozen Eastern European languages fluently, and his Romanian wife only a few less. They both struggled for decades to learn English, my great grandfather learning his English literally on the job, from his co-workers, and then teaching his wife at home, he retired as a county sheriff in the 1950's. Yet I vaguely remember the two of them, as a boy of about four or five, creating sentences where every single word was in a different language, and other family members understanding every word.

===

Legal Mexican immigrants may or may not be escaping from a repressive government, but they are most certainly escaping from a repressive and altogether unpleasant life situation.

We each do the best we can, within the limits of our abilities, and the constraints of our respective situations. Some help is always appreciated when times are tough.

Total immersion is unquestionably the best method. But a competent tutor can only help. In some cases (see below) a competent tutor may even be required.

===

To my fathers (RIP) great dismay, I continue to struggle with basic English, the only language I've ever known. The ability to learn another language (or for that matter - proper English) fluently is a skill set I've never possessed. I struggled and mumbled my way through my Bar Mitzvah some 32 years ago and still to this day mumble my way through the Passover services when called upon. Much to the amusement of my better educated family members...

If, for some bizarre reason, I have to suddenly and permanently learn another language, you betcha (SarahP!) I'm gonna be looking for all the free help I can find. If its a government program, so much the better, it'll be official.

IN
THREE
PARTS,
R

716 tyree  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 4:44:10am

As far as the rate of assimilation goes, some of the new immigrants are doing a terrible job. My community started changing 30 years ago and the kindergarten classes are still 95% ESL (English as a second language). My grandson is the only one in his class who speaks fluent English. None of the idiot politicians cares about what their incompetence has done to my family.

717 Taqiyyotomist  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:03:19am

The devil couldn't have come up with a better plan than VB.
Now we can't support English Only, since they do, and since groups which push English Only are linked to VB.

What about Jamaat ul Fuqra? Oh, their 35 or so paramilitary training camps in the USA are not to be discussed anymore, we have to not talk about them now, since Gates of Vienna has ties to VB, and they, apparantly, are the only folks to ever research Jamaat in the USA. Oh well. Jamaat and its 35 training camps don't exist anymore, for all intents and purposes.

What next? Seems to me that VB is the Great Conversation Stopper. I hope nobody else who has a good idea considers allying or linking to VB, or we'll have to stop thinking about their idea too.

Borders, language, culture...lemme guess, Michael Savage is going to be next to be found to have VB ties. Damn these VB f**ks. They have made us ignore things that matter. Jamaat matters. Language matters. But nope, we now have to dance on a tightrope, or even ignore matters altogether. F**k VB sideways.

718 quickjustice  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:14:10am

I lived in Nashville for ten years in the early 1980s. It's a conservative, blue-collar Democratic town. Tennesseans are patriotic people, and proud of the U.S. military. General Andrew Jackson was from Nashville. If the immigrants are hard-working, useful members of the community, Nashvillians will be tolerant. This vote proves that.

719 Lincolntf  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 6:23:39am

It gets a little crazy in MA, where my Mother was an ESL Teacher for a handful of years. The document and services providers are required to priint things, even teach things, in like 16 languages. Hmong, etc. It's an unsupportable system to serve such small populations, and it discourages people (many of her students' parents spoke zero English at home, and had no intention of ever learning, unfortunately) from learning the language.

720 [deleted]  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:38:00am
721 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 7:45:14am

re: #720 taxfreekiller

By now I see the government as thieves, stealing from honest people, and giving the loot to criminals.

722 jmwcctx  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:00:28am

Well, I'd first like to know what "white supremacist" org has $1.2 million to throw to an "English First" initiative. That assertion, along with the SPLC's pathetic record of late--labeling just about any conservative or Republican group a "hate group"--makes me question the veracity of the story. Also, a "senior official" of the Obama Administration has met with (and stated intent to meet with in the future) HAMAS. Does that make our Administration a terrorist organization?

Sorry, but the way the left has abandoned (and gotten away with it, too) any honest, honorable debate, and relied almost exclusively on character assassination and demonization when it comes to issues, I don't any more trust an article from an MSM source than I do writing on a bathroom wall. Half of this article is third-hand innuendo and allegations they don't even allow the organization to respond to.

It's hell having a critical eye, I tell ya--there's damn little real information out there anymore.

723 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:30:20am

re: #722 jmwcctx

Well, I'd first like to know what "white supremacist" org has $1.2 million to throw to an "English First" initiative.

You didn't read carefully enough. The article says:

The Southern Poverty Law Center identified FAIR as a hate group last winter based on its acceptance of $1.2 million from a white supremacist organization

That money wasn't give to FAIR for this initiative. Perhaps you also didn't read the thread, because Charles gave another link, where this is stated:

Probably the best-known evidence of FAIR's extremism is its acceptance of funds from a notorious, New York City-based hate group, the Pioneer Fund. In the mid-1980s, when FAIR's budgets were still in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, the group reached out to Pioneer Fund, which was established in 1937 to promote the racial stock of the original colonists, finance studies of race and intelligence, and foster policies of "racial betterment." (Pioneer has concentrated on studies meant to show that blacks are less intelligent than whites, but it has also backed nativist groups like ProjectUSA, run by former FAIR board member Craig Nelsen.)

Pioneer Fund

Among the things you'll read about the Pioneer Fund at that link are these:

The 1937 incorporation documents of the Pioneer Fund list two purposes. The first, modeled on the Nazi Lebensborn breeding program, was aimed at encouraging the propagation of those "descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original thirteen states prior to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States and/or from related stocks, or to classes of children, the majority of whom are deemed to be so descended". Its second purpose was to support academic research and the "dissemination of information, into the 'problem of heredity and eugenics'" and "the problems of race betterment". The Pioneer Fund argues the "race betterment" has always referred to the "human race" referred to earlier in the sentence, and critics argue it referred to racial groups. The document was amended in 1985 and the phrase changed to "human race betterment."

The Pioneer Fund supported the distribution of a eugenics film titled Erbkrank ("Hereditary Defective" or "Hereditary Illness") which was published by the pre-war 1930s Nazi Party.

Most of the Pioneer Fund's grants go to scientific research, including to researchers at 38 universities, and a smaller amount has gone to political or legal organizations, mostly to immigration restriction organizations

Many of the researchers whose findings support the hereditarian hypothesis of racial IQ disparity have received grants of varying sizes from the Pioneer Fund

Sorry, but if your going to take money from a group rich in nazi styled eugenics, there might be consequences.

724 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 8:46:23am

re: #722 jmwcctx

It's hell having a critical eye, I tell ya--there's damn little real information out there anymore.

And on the other hand, if you don't actually read the information that's out there, how critical is your eye?

The connections of FAIR to white supremacist groups are well-documented, no matter who revealed them.

725 SaneInMN  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:06:34am

A good friend of mine married what most would call the embodiment of the "American experience". His wife, a Cuban, who we will refer to as "Maria", was in the US touring with a "Cuban National" team, and she decided not to return. She learned English, received her degree, and managed to get most of her immediate family into the US. However, today's Cuban's are not your fathers freedom lovers. Most of her family cannot and will not learn to speak fluent English...and as long as they stay in S.E. FL, they don't have to. The younger Cubans I have personally met, including Maria and her siblings, look at the US as just a place to settle down, make some money, and wait for the embargo to be lifted. I can't remember how many times Maria has chastised her husband and myself for working too hard, stating that American's need to settle down and relax. And forget about young Cuban's carrying the Republican flag as did their mothers and fathers. Every Cuban (and Latino, for that matter) that I associate with is head over heels for the Messiah. Castro has done a very good job at corrupting his own population.

726 Irish Rose  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:08:34am

I have to admit that I'm pretty offended by some of the anti-immigrant, "English only" comments that I've read here this afternoon. I know soft bigotry when I see it.

I know all too well what my Irish ancestors who entered this country legally had to go through, to escape Colonial oppression and starvation, and simply be allowed to live here... I know what they had to endure at the hands of nativists.

Many of them didn't speak English before they arrived here, but they learned it eventually. Should we have driven them back onto their coffin ships and sent them back to Ireland to die of starvation because of this?

I know about the old prejudices against the Irish, and I also know what these "lowly immigrants" contributed to the fabric of this great nation. Many of the Irish who immigrated to this country took up the traditional public service jobs of law enforcement and firefighting, and a great many of their ancestors were among the first responders who sacrificed their lives on 9/11, helping others to safety. Something to think about.

Which is why I agree with Sharmuta, up there at #29:
re: #29 Sharmuta

There are a lot of latinos in my area- they are all hard working, family folks. If they're here illegally, then I have a problem with that. Otherwise- they are the sort of immigrant I would prefer to have in America as opposed to islamists uninterested in assimilating.

727 Ojoe  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:15:31am

re: #726 Irish Rose

I live in California; plenty of Latino immigrants here; they are by and large good people; I learn some Spanish; they learn some English, and if you are open to it, you can feel the mutual personal connection that is from the fact that all good people are seamlessly connected at the deepest level.

Some things transcend countries and cultures.

728 mcmeador  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:17:16am

re: #28 Charles

I guarantee that Nashville voters neither knew nor cared about the Vlaams Belang connection. But they apparently caught a whiff of something rancid in this legislation.

I think it probably has more to do with the fact that Nashville is a Democratic city and lefties tend to oppose any mention of making English an official language at any level.

729 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:18:55am

re: #725 SaneInMN

Are you a nativist?

730 SaneInMN  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:29:54am

re: #729 Sharmuta

No, but I am a realist. My maternal grandfather came to the country, fleeing the onslaught of the Soviet Union, and he didn't speak a lick of English. Neither did my maternal grandmother, although coming from Austria, she did not live through the horror of losing two siblings to starvation while trying to get here that my grandfather experienced. However, both of them managed to learn English and run a successful business in the US, just like millions of other early 20th century immigrants...and they did it without the US catering to their "cultural needs". Those needs were taken care of at home, were they could freely speak their native tongues and eat their native foods. Nobody, including myself, is saying that one cannot do as they wish in their own homes amongst their own family and friends. However, coming to this country, especially when this country grants certain people Green Card status, and then mocking it is a travesty. If that makes me a nativist, then so be it.

731 jaunte  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:33:39am

re: #730 SaneInMN

re: #725 SaneInMN

It is possible to live and work in Miami without learning English, simply because Miami is the entry point and secure banking center for much of South America, Central America, and the Caribbean. It's likely that if earlier immigrants to the U.S. had such a strong international connection, they would have been slower about learning a new language.

732 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:33:56am

re: #730 SaneInMN

You ding down comments supporting legal immigrants and comments pointing out the racist, eugenic connections of this group all based on your experience with a small group of Cubans. That's pretty bigoted.

733 SaneInMN  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:40:35am

re: #732 Sharmuta

You don't have the foggiest idea of what "eugenics" actually means, but "it makes me sound intelligent if I use it in a reply, he he he". And you and your pals anoint anyone who supports English as the official language of the US as "racists". That's pretty stupid.

734 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 10:41:17am

re: #733 SaneInMN

You assume too much.

735 Irish Rose  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:11:58am

Question, SaneInMn.... how do you feel about Catholics?

736 Irish Rose  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:21:55am

re: #733 SaneInMN

You don't have the foggiest idea of what "eugenics" actually means,

Perhaps you'd like to tell us YOUR definition of "eugenics"?

737 Sharmuta  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:53:21am

re: #736 Irish Rose

I doubt he will come back and answer you, Rose. It's much easier to engage in ad hominem and strawman arguments than it is for him to justify his comments and dings on this thread.

738 Charles Johnson  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 11:56:15am

FAIR's connection to eugenicists:

Probably the best-known evidence of FAIR's extremism is its acceptance of funds from a notorious, New York City-based hate group, the Pioneer Fund. In the mid-1980s, when FAIR's budgets were still in the hundreds of thousands of dollars, the group reached out to Pioneer Fund, which was established in 1937 to promote the racial stock of the original colonists, finance studies of race and intelligence, and foster policies of "racial betterment." (Pioneer has concentrated on studies meant to show that blacks are less intelligent than whites, but it has also backed nativist groups like ProjectUSA, run by former FAIR board member Craig Nelsen.)

The Pioneer Fund liked what it saw and, between 1985 and 1994, disbursed about $1.2 million to FAIR. In 1997, when the Phoenix New Times confronted Tanton about the matter, he "claimed ignorance about the Pioneer Fund's connection to numerous researchers seemingly intent on proving the inferiority of blacks, as well as its unsavory ties to Nazism." But he sounded a different tune in 2001, when he insisted that he was "comfortable being in the company of other Pioneer Fund grantees." Today, Tanton's defense is that he is no different than the "open borders crowd" that accepts money from the liberal Ford Foundation, which was founded by Henry Ford, the anti-Semitic auto manufacturer. What he ignores is that the Ford Foundation, unlike the Pioneer Fund, is not promoting racist ideas.

Some have called for FAIR to return the Pioneer money, but that has not happened. In fact, when asked about it in 1993, Stein told a reporter, "My job is to get every dime of Pioneer's money." One reason for Stein's lack of hesitation may be that FAIR has long been interested in the pseudo-science of eugenics.

One of FAIR's long-time leaders, and a personal hero to Tanton, is the late Garrett Hardin, a committed eugenicist and for years a professor of human ecology at the University of California. Hardin, who died in 2003, was himself a Pioneer Fund grantee, using the fund's money to expand his 1968 essay, "The Tragedy of the Commons." In it, Hardin wrote, "Freedom to breed will bring ruin to all."

739 wrenchwench  Sat, Jan 24, 2009 2:34:21pm

Thank you for this post and thread, Charles.


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