Diseases Coming Back, Thanks to Anti-Vaxers

Health • Views: 6,295

The Wall Street Journal has an article about a report from the Centers for Disease Control warning about new outbreaks of diseases thought to be eradicated—due to parents who are buying into the anti-vaccination craziness promoted by people like Jenny McCarthy: Fear of Vaccines Spurs Outbreaks, Study Says.

Parental doubts about the safety of childhood vaccinations are leading to outbreaks of largely eradicated diseases like measles and whooping cough, doctors warned in a new report.

A U.S. measles outbreak last year — almost exclusively among unvaccinated people — has sparked concern about places where many parents opt out of having their children vaccinated.

In Ashland, Ore., more than a quarter of kindergartners aren’t vaccinated, leading the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention to hold a town-hall meeting on vaccination there earlier this year. …

Too many abstainers can put a town at risk, wrote Dr. Saad Omer, of Emory University in Atlanta, the lead author in the report in this week’s New England Journal of Medicine.

“People need to recognize that in the case of infectious diseases, what other people do impacts my child,” Dr. Omer said in an interview. “If they live in a community that has a cluster of refusers, their risk of getting a vaccine-preventable disease goes up, just by virtue of who they play with.”

Vaccines for diseases like whooping cough aren’t 100% effective for each individual, and some children can’t be vaccinated for medical reasons. That means that eradicating a disease requires vaccinating a large percentage of the nearby population to stop infections from spreading — what’s called “herd immunity.”

Schools with many abstainers have been linked to outbreaks.

There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?

And by the way, in addition to being a shill for “intelligent design” creationism, Republican Tom Tancredo is also an anti-vaccination kook:

A woman asked Tancredo, “What do you think of autism in this country?” She has a 4-year-old with autism. Tancredo said, “I think much of it is due to the number of shots we give to kids …” They talked about mercury in vaccines’ preservatives.

UPDATE at 5/7/09 10:32:34 am:

And if you haven’t heard already, Oprah Winfrey is now promoting the anti-vaccination kooks too, by giving a talk show to Jenny McCarthy: Why is Oprah Winfrey promoting vaccine skeptic Jenny McCarthy?

UPDATE at 5/7/09 10:41:35 am:

And to make things even worse, support for anti-vaccination insanity is now beginning to show up in GOP state platforms; from the Oklahoma platform:

5. We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.

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831 comments
1 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:19:32am

It's happening here in Texas. Thanks a lot, Dimbulb McCarthy.

2 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:19:36am
3 ctrlL  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:19:48am

Jonas Salk, we need you ..

4 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:20:09am

Worlds Gone Wild.

/19.95 + shipping.

Drag 'em all out into the sun.

5 Gella  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:20:14am

can i get 2nd set of vaccinations?

6 lazardo  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:20:19am

Pretty soon they're gonna be wondering if there are tracking nanomachines in vaccinations. Just like in the video games!

/

//Metal Gear Solid 4 was pretty good, imo

7 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:20:37am

re: #3 ctrlL

Jonas Salk, we need you ..

He's spinning in his grave.

8 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:22:04am

Isn't Oprah also anti-vacc? I think I saw a couple of posts about that yesterday. If so, I'd say that she carries a lot more clout than Jennie McCarthy. If people's position on being anti-vacc are being influenced, I would think Oprah is moer of an influence - many (way too many) people trust her.

9 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:22:25am

I've been seeing more and more comercials for so-called "Natural Cures" for many diseases and conditions including Diabetes.

10 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:23:20am

re: #8 Russkilitlover

Isn't Oprah also anti-vacc? I think I saw a couple of posts about that yesterday. If so, I'd say that she carries a lot more clout than Jennie McCarthy. If people's position on being anti-vacc are being influenced, I would think Oprah is moer of an influence - many (way too many) people trust her.

She's just plain evil. She foisted Obama off on us.

11 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:23:56am

Anti-Vax seems to be where the anti-science creationist right and the anti-science Gaia-worshipping left meet.

12 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:24:06am

re: #2 taxfreekiller

Thank goodness the 20 million illegal immigrants all have their shots, other wise there could be real trouble.

Of course, Tom Tancredo would be in favor of them NOT having vaccinations, wouldn't he? So they could stay in their "turd world country," as he put it.

13 Macker  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:24:49am

Since these anti-vaxers are this stupid, perhaps the herd has to be culled so.

14 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #9 Idle Drifter

I've been seeing more and more comercials for so-called "Natural Cures" for many diseases and conditions including Diabetes.

The real natural cure for diabetes (and a lot of of other things) is a healthy diet, and exercise.

15 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:25:17am

Well, what a few communicable, terminal and debilitating diseases amongst friends, at least they don't have autism.

/

16 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:25:21am

Tancredo is officially off my Christmas list, in light of his two appearances with the League of the South, and his spouting creationist nonsense. However, I wonder if it might be a little too soon to call him an anti-vaccination kook, just on the basis of one remark he made at a campaign stop? The vaccinations-cause-autism theory appears to be wrong, but it was seriously considered enough to be the subject of a lot of real research. Maybe someone just needs to fill Tancredo in on the relevant science, and then he'd gladly change his tune.

I'm not going to give him any such benefit of the doubt on creationism and the secession of the southern states, though.

17 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:25:39am
18 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:25:40am

re: #12 Charles

Of course, Tom Tancredo would be in favor of them NOT having vaccinations, wouldn't he? So they could stay in their "turd world country," as he put it.

He's an embarrassment to the border security movement.

19 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:26:13am

Let's see - uninformed politicians spewing garbage. Uninformed B list celebrities pushing uninformed nonsense and needlessly putting millions of American kids' health at risk. It's garbage all the way around, and Tancredo would be better served getting informed by medical experts than listening to the anti-vax crowd.

Who would you rather believe? Jenny McCarthy and her shrill campaign proffered by the anti-vax campaigners or some stodgy doctor with years of clinical experience and medical facts on his side?

More and more are going with the touchy feely McCarthy nonsense because they would rather feel that they're doing the right thing than know that they're protecting their kids against an unseen menace of easily preventable communicable diseases.

And Oprah is complicit in all this by pushing McCarthy further into the spotlight. Ditto for Larry King and anyone else who thinks that McCarthy has even a shred of reliability on the issue of autism and vaccinations.

20 lazardo  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:27:26am

re: #19 lawhawk

First the Red scare, now the [what color are vaccinations anyway?] scare!

/I know they're not related, but you get the point. q:

21 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:27:29am

re: #9 Idle Drifter

I've been seeing more and more comercials for so-called "Natural Cures" for many diseases and conditions including Diabetes.

Those are scary for certain. However, my father and brother are both diabetic and they follow a pretty holistic approach to controlling their diabetes. Some products are worthy, and or course, diet is essential to controlling the levels. There is nothing that will "cure" it though....all you can do is control it. The people that push "cures" for that type of thing should be jailed, that is dangerous.

22 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:27:37am

re: #12 Charles

Of course, Tom Tancredo would be in favor of them NOT having vaccinations, wouldn't he? So they could stay in their "turd world country," as he put it.

Did he actually say "turd world country," too? Charles, you are really not boosting my opinion of Tom Tancredo.

23 Liberal Classic  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:28:13am

Related article from the Dailymail.co.uk:

London suffering from shocking rise in rare 'Victorian' diseases

London is suffering a startling rise in diseases associated with Victorian times, official figures reveal today.

Rare infectious illnesses including typhoid, whooping cough and scarlet fever have soared by 166 per cent in the past two years, with the number of cases of mumps - a disease easily prevented with vaccine - rising from 125 in 2007 to 393 last year - an increase of 214 per cent.

...

The rise could be a result of parents refusing the MMR jab after now-debunked claims in 2001 that it might be linked to autism.

Source: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

24 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:28:33am

re: #2 taxfreekiller

Thank goodness the 20 million illegal immigrants all have their shots, other wise there could be real trouble.

I was talking to a pediatric nurse practicioner, and she said her best parents in terms of vaccine compliance are the illegal aliens. They are damned grateful for the chance to protect their kids with vaccines.

Yeah, my taxes might pay for that. I'm OK with that.

25 Tricky Dick  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:28:41am

OT

Here's a story that'll make your blood boil. It wasn't bad enough the government and the banks nearly ran the economy in the ground loaning money to people to buy houses who clearly couldn't pay it back. Now they want to give them car loans they'll never be able to repay.

26 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:02am

Jim Carrey and Jenny McCarthy? Dumb and Dumber.

27 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:06am

re: #17 taxfreekiller

Tom Tancredo, is out now and my guess he is out for good.

He may end up with a talk show, thats about it for him, IMO.

Actually, you're not too far from the truth. He has guest hosted a number of local talk radio shows here in the Denver area, subbing for the regular guests.

28 guftafs  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:19am

Sad to see this level of unreason being around. Let's hope it can be turned around.

29 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:25am

interesting this just came up..just got back from the pediatrician with little Spider...he was getting his vac shots today ( took it like a man, 2 minutes of crying, then stopped, fell asleep on the ride home)..but according to the doctor Whooping cough is making a big come back lately..almost epidemic..nah..all theses anti vac parents can possibly be blamed for that one...

30 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:42am

re: #16 Last Mohican

Tancredo also recently appeared at an event sponsored by "Youth for Western Civilization," an openly racist group linked to Marcus Epstein and several other white supremacist groups.

31 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:29:43am
32 doppelganglander  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:30:06am

re: #8 Russkilitlover

Isn't Oprah also anti-vacc? I think I saw a couple of posts about that yesterday. If so, I'd say that she carries a lot more clout than Jennie McCarthy. If people's position on being anti-vacc are being influenced, I would think Oprah is moer of an influence - many (way too many) people trust her.

The uber-libs at Slate have a smackdown of Oprah over her promotion of Jenny McCarthy. Oprah supports a lot of dumb shit, like The Secret and James Frey, but this one can actually kill people.

33 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:31:09am

re: #21 Desert Dog

Those are scary for certain. However, my father and brother are both diabetic and they follow a pretty holistic approach to controlling their diabetes. Some products are worthy, and or course, diet is essential to controlling the levels. There is nothing that will "cure" it though....all you can do is control it. The people that push "cures" for that type of thing should be jailed, that is dangerous.

The return of the snake oil salesmen.

34 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:31:22am

re: #14 Ward Cleaver

I equate cure as being completely free of the condition/disease. Healthy living certainly gives you more time on this Earth and helps towards recovery along with medical treatments. The claims in these commercials are seriously far fetched.

35 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:31:51am
36 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #24 funky chicken

I was talking to a pediatric nurse practicioner, and she said her best parents in terms of vaccine compliance are the illegal aliens. They are damned grateful for the chance to protect their kids with vaccines.

Yeah, my taxes might pay for that. I'm OK with that.

Me too. And I'm not surprised--that's a group of parents who probably know people who've lost kids to preventable disease.

That's the problem the anti-vaccination people have. They don't remember when losing a child was a tragic, normal, part of life. They don't know how damn precious these vaccines are.

37 FabioC.  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:09am

I think that an "anti-vaccination kook" is someone who is against vaccination. does not want his children vaccinated and is campaigning against that practice.

Instead, in the quote Tancredo says he thinks vaccinations (specifically, the number) causes autism. That is wrong , but from the quote alone it is impossible to say if he is against vaccination or he thinks that mercury-induced autism is a risk worth taking.

38 lazardo  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:25am

I've been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which I am told is similar to autism in some ways.

Does this mean I can vaccinate myself to invincibility now?

/ 0:

39 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:30am

re: #24 funky chicken

I was talking to a pediatric nurse practicioner, and she said her best parents in terms of vaccine compliance are the illegal aliens. They are damned grateful for the chance to protect their kids with vaccines.

Yeah, my taxes might pay for that. I'm OK with that.

Same here. My wife is an RN and did some heavy research on vacs after they thought our son was autistic. She supports vaccinations . I defer to her.

40 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:35am

re: #30 Charles

Tancredo also recently appeared at an event sponsored by "Youth for Western Civilization," an openly racist group linked to Marcus Epstein and several other white supremacist groups.

Holy crap. He's said enough stupid things over the years (like talking about nuking Mecca and Medina) to make me stay wary of him.

41 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:44am

re: #35 taxfreekiller

All these "health stores" with all that unregulated junk is a clear danger.

There is one place you see the re-election money dance for sure.

Both the D's and R's take money from the lobbyist for that shit.

Back in the day, when the "cure all" guy selling "cures" in a bottle was run out of town on a rail, now they have a store next to Wallgreens in the mall's.

That's called capitalism.

42 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:32:53am

re: #30 Charles

Tancredo also recently appeared at an event sponsored by "Youth for Western Civilization," an openly racist group linked to Marcus Epstein and several other white supremacist groups.

There's some guy named Epstein running a white supremacist group? Does his mother know about this?

43 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:24am

Talk about bad timing . . . my son picked this week to contract the "regular" flu for which he had received an immunization.

44 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:28am

re: #33 Ward Cleaver

The return of the snake oil salesmen.

They never really left. The "medicine" in that bottle may have changed, lost a bit of the alcohol, gained some sugar, but the traveling medicine show still exists. Instead of being in the town square, it's now on Oprah.

45 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:36am
46 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:39am

re: #21 Desert Dog

These days, medical schools (at least the one that I went to) are big on teaching acceptance of nontraditional medicine. One aspect of that is being careful to ask patients if they are taking any supplements, herbal medicines, or other "nontraditional" treatments, because some of those can exacerbate medical problems or interact in bad ways with other medications. Another aspect is being supportive of patients who want to try nontraditional therapies, because (1) they mostly don't hurt, and (2) they might help -- we shouldn't presume that as Western scientists we know more than everyone else.

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm seeing more and more patients who insist on nontraditional therapy instead of, rather than in addition to, traditional medicine. People who are literally dying from infections and tumors that could have been easily cured, because they refused to see a traditional doctor. It's pretty upsetting.

47 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:42am
There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?

When I was a kid going to school in the 60's I could have sworn that you wouldn't be allowed in if you weren't vaccinated.
When did we vote to change this? I forget.........

48 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:49am

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

There's some guy named Epstein running a white supremacist group? Does his mother know about this?

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

49 Land Shark  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:52am

I was afraid we'd see this once the idiotic anti-vaccine movement started to spread. This is going to cost people's lives.

You can't fix stupid.

50 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:33:56am

re: #23 Liberal Classic

Related article from the Dailymail.co.uk:

Source: [Link: www.dailymail.co.uk...]

I'd guess new immigrants, especially with the typhoid. MMR vaccinates against measles, mumps, and rubella, so has nothing to do with typhoid or scarlet fever.

Scarlet fever is the result of untreated strep throat, and is easily cured with antibiotics, so there's no vaccine.

Typhoid--icky, but it's not part of standard childhood vaccinations.

51 wee fury  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:34:21am

Everyone should read old newspapers.

August 25, 1916
St. Paul Pioneer Press
Two Paralysis Patients Freed From Quarantine.
Two infantile paralysis patients were released from quarantine by city health officers late yesterday, reducing the number of cases in St Paul to thirty five. Although no new cases were reported yesterday afternoon, Margaret Hagan 2 yar old daughter of Mrs George Hagen, Webster, South Dakota, was taken from a train here to the City hospital. Physicians who attended her diagnosed her case as infantile paralysis. Her condition is said to be serious.

52 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:34:33am
53 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:07am

re: #29 Spider Mensch

Whooping cough cases tripled between 2001 and 2004
, primarily because of anti-vax crowds and fewer seeing the need for preventing an easily communicable disease that is easily preventable.

Whooping cough made a major resurgence in the United States about five years ago, although the number of cases has been growing every year for the past decade or so. There were 25,827 cases in the United States in 2004 -- way up from the all-time low of 1,010 cases in 1976.

California had 3,172 cases last year and 1,013 cases by the end of August this year -- slightly below last year's 1,276 by the end of August.

That's from 2006.

Here's a CDC table of incidence of diseases. Some of the trends are troubling, particularly for diseases that are easily preventable through vaccination.

54 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:11am

re: #38 lazardo

I've been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome, which I am told is similar to autism in some ways.

Does this mean I can vaccinate myself to invincibility now?

/ 0:

It means you can kick our asses in Trivial Pursuit. Everyone I've ever met with Asperper's has an incredible memory. I had a long time employee with that he was the best worker I ever had.

55 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:12am

re: #48 Charles

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Read that bio, sound like a "Paulite" on steroids.

56 lazardo  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:15am

1:35 AM, headin' to bed. Cheers.

57 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:18am

re: #35 taxfreekiller

All these "health stores" with all that unregulated junk is a clear danger.

There is one place you see the re-election money dance for sure.

Both the D's and R's take money from the lobbyist for that shit.

Back in the day, when the "cure all" guy selling "cures" in a bottle was run out of town on a rail, now they have a store next to Wallgreens in the mall's.

Exactly. The latest thing to get the axe is Hydroxycut, the diet pills sold at GNC, among other places, because of the potential for liver damage. Before that, it was Body Solutions, the diet drink (you drank it before bed) that was pimped on the radio all the time.

58 Jim D  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:35:57am

re: #2 taxfreekiller

Why do you assume they wouldn't get shots? Only Americans love their kids enough to get them vaccinated?

59 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:02am

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

There's some guy named Epstein running a white supremacist group? Does his mother know about this?

He called in sick the day they taught about the Holocaust at school I guess?

60 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:06am

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

There's some guy named Epstein running a white supremacist group? Does his mother know about this?

It's killing her!

61 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:09am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Read that bio, sound like a "Paulite" on steroids.

Notice the web of paleocon connections -- Tancredo, VDARE, Buchanan, Takimag, Lew Rockwell -- all connected. And the connections go across the Atlantic to the Eurofascist groups.

62 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:10am
63 swamprat  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:20am

re: #24 funky chicken

I was talking to a pediatric nurse practicioner, and she said her best parents in terms of vaccine compliance are the illegal aliens. They are damned grateful for the chance to protect their kids with vaccines.

Yeah, my taxes might pay for that. I'm OK with that.

Child nutrition, education, and preventive medication, return more value than cost. The provisio is that the education is usable in the society in which it is given,...yes I mean English language and non-agenda driven teaching.

64 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:26am

This just blows my mind. My kids have had to produce their vaccination records for all levels of school (including college), camps, mission projects, etc., etc.

65 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:36:42am

re: #58 Jim D

Why do you assume they wouldn't get shots? Only Americans love their kids enough to get them vaccinated?

He means they do get their shots.

66 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:37:31am

re: #32 doppelganglander

The uber-libs at Slate have a smackdown of Oprah over her promotion of Jenny McCarthy. Oprah supports a lot of dumb shit, like The Secret and James Frey, but this one can actually kill people.

Oh, for Pete's sake. Jennie McCarthy from your link:

I do believe sadly it's going to take some diseases coming back to realize that we need to change and develop vaccines that are safe. If the vaccine companies are not listening to us, it's their fucking fault that the diseases are coming back.

67 FabioC.  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:37:40am

Anyway, here's another story free of polemics.

In the last couple of years in Italy there have been meningitis outbreaks that even caused some deaths.

After some investigation it turned out that the disease propagated from bars and clubs where immigrants especially from Africa used to gather.

68 doppelganglander  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:37:41am

re: #51 wee fury

Everyone should read old newspapers.

August 25, 1916
St. Paul Pioneer Press
Two Paralysis Patients Freed From Quarantine.
Two infantile paralysis patients were released from quarantine by city health officers late yesterday, reducing the number of cases in St Paul to thirty five. Although no new cases were reported yesterday afternoon, Margaret Hagan 2 yar old daughter of Mrs George Hagen, Webster, South Dakota, was taken from a train here to the City hospital. Physicians who attended her diagnosed her case as infantile paralysis. Her condition is said to be serious.

Just a few days ago, a woman in North Carolina died after spending 61 years in an iron lung due to polio. A shame she never got a chance to read Jenny McCarthy the riot act.

69 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:37:50am

re: #61 Charles

Notice the web of paleocon connections -- Tancredo, VDARE, Buchanan, Takimag, Lew Rockwell -- all connected. And the connections go across the Atlantic to the Eurofascist groups.

sounds more like a "tangled web" rather than connections

70 guftafs  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:37:50am

re: #48 Charles

Nice tie.

71 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:38:15am

re: #55 Walter L. Newton

Read that bio, sound like a "Paulite" on steroids.

Epstein is a disgusting creature, IMHO. He writes for VDARE and Human Events among other sites on the internet. He's also a buddy of Pat Buchanan.

72 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:38:18am

re: #13 Macker

Since these anti-vaxers are this stupid, perhaps the herd has to be culled so.

Unfortunately it also means that those who have been vaccinated are at risk, at least for some of the diseases where the vaccines are not 100% effective.

73 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:38:33am

re: #46 Last Mohican

One of our hospitals wanted us to refer patients to an Anesthesiologist who was doing accupuncture.

Get the chest tube ready.

74 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:38:38am

re: #46 Last Mohican

These days, medical schools (at least the one that I went to) are big on teaching acceptance of nontraditional medicine. One aspect of that is being careful to ask patients if they are taking any supplements, herbal medicines, or other "nontraditional" treatments, because some of those can exacerbate medical problems or interact in bad ways with other medications. Another aspect is being supportive of patients who want to try nontraditional therapies, because (1) they mostly don't hurt, and (2) they might help -- we shouldn't presume that as Western scientists we know more than everyone else.

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm seeing more and more patients who insist on nontraditional therapy instead of, rather than in addition to, traditional medicine. People who are literally dying from infections and tumors that could have been easily cured, because they refused to see a traditional doctor. It's pretty upsetting.

This seems to be the new American way. Fight big oil, big business, big pharmaceutical, big anything.

75 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:38:44am

re: #54 Desert Dog

It means you can kick our asses in Trivial Pursuit. Everyone I've ever met with Asperper's has an incredible memory. I had a long time employee with that he was the best worker I ever had.

The departed Ed Mahmoud claimed he'd been diagnosed with Asperger's. I still kind of wonder if that contributed to his going off the deep end.

76 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:39:11am

re: #61 Charles

Notice the web of paleocon connections -- Tancredo, VDARE, Buchanan, Takimag, Lew Rockwell -- all connected. And the connections go across the Atlantic to the Eurofascist groups.

I know, I was sort of being cheeky. I'm really getting tired of all these fascist tendencies. It's not hard to understand the motivation or to prove the connections. But people are purposely turning a blind eye to a lot of it. When did that happen before? Hmmm....

Teacher, I know... 1930's.

77 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:39:11am

re: #61 Charles

Notice the web of paleocon connections -- Tancredo, VDARE, Buchanan, Takimag, Lew Rockwell -- all connected. And the connections go across the Atlantic to the Eurofascist groups.

Ugh. The 1930's are playing out in more ways than one, it seems.

78 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:39:38am

re: #25 Tricky Dick

OT

Here's a story that'll make your blood boil. It wasn't bad enough the government and the banks nearly ran the economy in the ground loaning money to people to buy houses who clearly couldn't pay it back. Now they want to give them car loans they'll never be able to repay.

Don't let Obama see that or he'll do the same, as long as they buy GM or Chrysler.

79 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:39:47am
80 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:39:57am
81 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:40:15am

re: #69 Desert Dog

sounds more like a "tangled web" rather than connections

A spider's web of fascist and racist connections.

82 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:40:29am

re: #68 doppelganglander

Just a few days ago, a woman in North Carolina died after spending 61 years in an iron lung due to polio. A shame she never got a chance to read Jenny McCarthy the riot act.

I'll bet a lot of people that lost siblings to diseases like the measles, mumps, and rubella would like to.

83 Vicious Babushka  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:40:32am

re: #42 SanFranciscoZionist

There's some guy named Epstein running a white supremacist group? Does his mother know about this?

His mother is Korean, I believe.

84 lazardo  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:00am

re: #75 Ward Cleaver

re: #54 Desert Dog

I probably already mentioned this a lot, but my school days weren't happy ones. Hmm.

/anyhoo, 1:40. Actually hitting hay now. Cheers.

85 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:03am

Pure insanity.

86 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:04am

re: #83 Alouette

His mother is Korean, I believe.


Is his father jewish?

87 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:04am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Every now and then the media covers sex "parties" in which gay men give each other "the gift of AIDS," so they can get over worrying about infection, safe sex, etc., and "get on with their lives."

Just imagine people having parties in a few years to give each other the gift of smallpox, or polio, or something of the sort, so that they can stop worrying and get on with their lives.

The gifts that keep on giving. Hedonism comes to mind.

88 tfc3rid  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:12am

They may be kooks but they have every right to spew their nonsense that we do...

89 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:17am

re: #50 funky chicken

I'd guess new immigrants, especially with the typhoid. MMR vaccinates against measles, mumps, and rubella, so has nothing to do with typhoid or scarlet fever.

Scarlet fever is the result of untreated strep throat, and is easily cured with antibiotics, so there's no vaccine.

Typhoid--icky, but it's not part of standard childhood vaccinations.

I'm concerned even Yellow Fever might make a come back because the combined actions of environmentalists blocking the use of insecticides and people that are anti-vax making too much noise. One thing I loved about the military was vaccinations are mandatory and boosters were available on request.

90 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:19am

When I was a kid they'd give you your vaccinations at school. Line 'em up and shoot 'em up.

91 Summersong  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:21am

"There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

I've been wondering about that, as well.

92 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:39am

re: #75 Ward Cleaver

The departed Ed Mahmoud claimed he'd been diagnosed with Asperger's. I still kind of wonder if that contributed to his going off the deep end.

It wasn't the Asperger's. It was Jackassery, pure and simple.

93 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:46am

re: #33 Ward Cleaver

The return of the snake oil salesmen.

My son just wrote a paper about Teddy Roosevelt. The parallels from the Gilded Age to now are quite strong, IMHO. First, we have guys like George Soros and the other Hedge Fund dudes--the new trust magnates, and the rise of increased income inequality. Then we have Smithfield and Tyson with their filthy CAFOs--the new Chicago meatpacker/Swift foods guys. Now we have the rise of new snake oil salesmen, which were rampant before Roosevelt signed the Pure Food and Drug Act, which lead to the founding of the FDA.

94 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:55am

re: #64 redstateredneck

This just blows my mind. My kids have had to produce their vaccination records for all levels of school (including college), camps, mission projects, etc., etc.

You will not believe the number of jabs my family has had to get to get their green cards. Me? None. I have been here for 26 years and require none to return to the US. Makes sense to me///

95 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:41:57am

re: #53 lawhawk


Whooping cough cases tripled between 2001 and 2004
, primarily because of anti-vax crowds and fewer seeing the need for preventing an easily communicable disease that is easily preventable.


That's from 2006.

Here's a CDC table of incidence of diseases. Some of the trends are troubling, particularly for diseases that are easily preventable through vaccination.

thank you..I should've / my last sentance on my post. but I think you got me covered..

96 swamprat  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:42:27am

re: #79 taxfreekiller

#58

because many of them are "wage slaves" hidden on farms all over the county, and the kids do not go to school, they are housed in shacks
Fl. is the worst, followed by Calif, Az, and Nv, then Utah.

some have yes fake ID, fake SS#'s and fake shot records to boot.

sure many are in the schools, but many are highly misused by greedy shit wipes.....

And "bi-lingual schools" work hard to keep the chains on their children

97 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:42:31am
98 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:42:44am

re: #91 Summersong

"There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

I've been wondering about that, as well.

If I had to guess, these school are located in areas with lots of people who think of themselves as "progressive". Just a guess on my part.

99 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:42:47am

Just a quick drive-by sorta post y'all but is Oprah herself anti-vaccinations? Does anyone know? Because she is probably the most powerful woman in America, certainly in the entertainment industry and clearly has Obama's ear.

100 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:42:56am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Every now and then the media covers sex "parties" in which gay men give each other "the gift of AIDS," so they can get over worrying about infection, safe sex, etc., and "get on with their lives."

Just imagine people having parties in a few years to give each other the gift of smallpox, or polio, or something of the sort, so that they can stop worrying and get on with their lives.

My mother did send my brothers in to read to me when I had German measles so they'd get them and get it over with...

101 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:10am

re: #97 Iron Fist

You can do the same thing a lot quicker and less painfully with a shotgun. Either way, I count them as suicides.

Makes you wonder if they pass out the stupid pills at those "parties"

102 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:14am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Every now and then the media covers sex "parties" in which gay men give each other "the gift of AIDS," so they can get over worrying about infection, safe sex, etc., and "get on with their lives."

Just imagine people having parties in a few years to give each other the gift of smallpox, or polio, or something of the sort, so that they can stop worrying and get on with their lives.

Fuck that shit.

103 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:20am

re: #99 realwest

Just a quick drive-by sorta post y'all but is Oprah herself anti-vaccinations? Does anyone know? Because she is probably the most powerful woman in America, certainly in the entertainment industry and clearly has Obama's ear.

I think she has his nose too!

104 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:22am

re: #25 Tricky Dick

OT

Here's a story that'll make your blood boil. It wasn't bad enough the government and the banks nearly ran the economy in the ground loaning money to people to buy houses who clearly couldn't pay it back. Now they want to give them car loans they'll never be able to repay.

Great. That'll play into the whole "Welfare Cadillac" meme. BTW, I had no idea that Deval Patrick was black; first time I've ever seen a picture of him. I assumed he was just another white, wealthy liberal.

105 Vicious Babushka  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:27am

The manufacturers of teeny tiny baby coffins are very pleased.

106 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:37am

re: #88 tfc3rid

They may be kooks but they have every right to spew their nonsense that we do...

Well I am not so sure. Didn't the Supreme Court kinda say you do not have the right to Yell Fire in a crowded theater? If you are spewing crap that is directly damaging to the Population? I know who decides, but I am just saying.

107 baier  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:41am

How could a TV star, a former playboy bunny, and a Senator, all with no scientific training all be wrong...I mean one sure, but all three?/

108 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:43:42am
109 SpaceJesus  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:16am

Idiocracy here we come

110 doppelganglander  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:19am

re: #90 redstateredneck

When I was a kid they'd give you your vaccinations at school. Line 'em up and shoot 'em up.

I remember TB tine tests in first grade. This would have been 1969-70.

111 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:22am

re: #104 Ward Cleaver

Great. That'll play into the whole "Welfare Cadillac" meme. BTW, I had no idea that Deval Patrick was black; first time I've ever seen a picture of him. I assumed he was just another white, wealthy liberal.

He and Obama are pals, too. As goes Massachusetts....

112 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:25am

re: #100 redstateredneck

My mother did send my brothers in to read to me when I had German measles so they'd get them and get it over with...

I infected my brothers, sister and two neighbor kids with Chicken Pox when I was young...my parents and the neighbors parents did it on purpose! They were happy...my "victims" were not.

113 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:44am
114 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:51am

re: #108 buzzsawmonkey

But did they read to you in German?

Ha. I can never remember which measles are rubella so I use the old fashioned "3 day measles" and "German measles".

115 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:44:58am
116 jill e  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:45:02am
117 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:45:16am

I wonder, at what point does the vaccinated population have to fall for major outbreaks to occur? Anyone know?

118 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:45:26am

re: #83 Alouette

His mother is Korean, I believe.

I'm sure she's thrilled about his friends.

/

119 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:45:38am

re: #90 redstateredneck

When I was a kid they'd give you your vaccinations at school. Line 'em up and shoot 'em up.

The GUN! I remember the gun! Lambs before the slaughter!

120 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:45:46am

re: #102 Erik The Red

Fuck that shit.

/Well . . .without trying to be too graphic . . I think so, yes.

121 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:04am

re: #116 jill e

Amanda Peet: Take the time to get the FACTS!

...from science!

I'll get one if Amanda is giving them out

122 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:09am

re: #110 doppelganglander

I remember TB tine tests in first grade. This would have been 1969-70.

Oh yeah. The whole town came to get them. My mom tested positive because she had been exposed to tb as a child. She also had smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough, and scarlet fever all by the time she was seven years old. Nursed at home by her mother.

123 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:12am

The only disease I don't want a vaccination against is Tourette's. As a matter of fact I'm trying to catch it. That way, when I go off on some libtard's ass, I can claim that I'm not responsible and demand understanding, sympathy and protection under the Americans with Disabilities Act.

BTW - Before anyone jumps my shit about making fun of something that someone they know might have....this is a joke.
/ *inoculating myself against bad joke repercussions*

124 Charles Johnson  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:14am

It's going to be a little harder for Geller, Spencer, and the others to continue ignoring the Bruce Bawer piece, now that it's been linked by Andrew Sullivan.

125 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:37am

re: #90 redstateredneck

When I was a kid they'd give you your vaccinations at school. Line 'em up and shoot 'em up.

Yep, I remember when they started giving the rubella vaccinations in thet school cafeteria (1969, maybe?), using a pneumatic gun instead of a syringe. Damn, that hurt!

126 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:39am

re: #100 redstateredneck
Hi ya {red} *smooch*! Uh, German measles isn't what buzz was talking about, of course.
And guess what? If you had chickenpox as a kid, as an adult you can get shingles from being around kids who have chickenpox.
I don't know if they have a vaccine against chickenpox or not, but I'm having trouble accepting Charles' question: "There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

127 Macker  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:46:58am

re: #99 realwest

Just a quick drive-by sorta post y'all but is Oprah herself anti-vaccinations? Does anyone know? Because she is probably the most powerful woman in America, certainly in the entertainment industry and clearly has Obama's ear.

Ah, but what's good for Oprah is not fit for the little people.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:47:08am

re: #97 Iron Fist

You can do the same thing a lot quicker and less painfully with a shotgun. Either way, I count them as suicides.

I think there are a lot more shotgun suicides annually than people who deliberately contract HIV. I kind of suspect this sort of thing is right up there with 'rainbow parties'.

129 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:47:49am

re: #94 Erik The Red

When you say no vac's required to return to the US, are you referring to a hypothetical short-term absence or long-term?

130 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:47:58am

re: #124 Charles

It's going to be a little harder for Geller, Spencer, and the others to continue ignoring the Bruce Bawer piece, now that it's been linked by Andrew Sullivan.

You get the drinks, I'll get the popcorn?

131 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:03am

re: #99 realwest

Just a quick drive-by sorta post y'all but is Oprah herself anti-vaccinations? Does anyone know? Because she is probably the most powerful woman in America, certainly in the entertainment industry and clearly has Obama's ear.

Man, she looks like crap lately. Has she stopped wearing makeup?

132 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:10am

re: #116 jill e

Amanda Peet: Take the time to get the FACTS!

...from science!

This ad is paid for by big pharmaceutical.////

133 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:13am
134 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:18am

re: #126 realwest

Hi ya {red} *smooch*! Uh, German measles isn't what buzz was talking about, of course.
And guess what? If you had chickenpox as a kid, as an adult you can get shingles from being around kids who have chickenpox.
I don't know if they have a vaccine against chickenpox or not, but I'm having trouble accepting Charles' question: "There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"


Hey, darlin'! *smooch* back atcha. They do have a chickenpox vaccination now but they developed it after my kids were little and had it.

135 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:25am

re: #131 Ward Cleaver

Man, she looks like crap lately. Has she stopped wearing makeup?

I think it's called aging?

136 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:38am

re: #124 Charles

It's going to be a little harder for Geller, Spencer, and the others to continue ignoring the Bruce Bawer piece, now that it's been linked by Andrew Sullivan.

That'll just bring out more gay-bashing.

137 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:48:41am

re: #114 redstateredneck

Ha. I can never remember which measles are rubella so I use the old fashioned "3 day measles" and "German measles".

I remember the rubella umbrella..i think that was just a local NYC area thing for kids..on Officer Joe Boltons show..yes we had a kid show with a police character as host back in the day, showed Bugs Bunny cartoons and Little Rascal shorts..it was great!

138 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:49:09am

re: #135 Nevergiveup

I think it's called aging?

It just seems like it happened all of a sudden, not gradually.

139 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:49:14am

re: #80 buzzsawmonkey

Actually, I read that a while ago as well.

IIRC, their own term for it was "bug chasers"

140 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:49:22am

re: #135 Nevergiveup

I think it's called aging?

Hey, watch it!

141 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:49:49am
And to make things even worse, support for anti-vaccination insanity is now beginning to show up in GOP state platforms; from the Oklahoma platform:

5. We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.


The GOP is over

We need a new party.

142 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:07am

re: #140 redstateredneck

Hey, watch it!

I'm 54, I do every day I look in the mirror. Sigh.

143 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:18am

re: #117 Leonidas Hoplite

I wonder, at what point does the vaccinated population have to fall for major outbreaks to occur? Anyone know?

I don't know. Of course, another problem, IIUC, is that infants who haven't yet been vaccinated are vulnerable to contracting the illness. That's not a problem in a fully vaccinated group.

144 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:19am

Screw both major parties.

145 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:24am

re: #129 Flyers1974

When you say no vac's required to return to the US, are you referring to a hypothetical short-term absence or long-term?

For me long term 26 years. I need none.

146 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:28am

re: #140 redstateredneck

Hey, watch it!

Here come the cane again!

147 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:42am

I also remember the whole town going to the school to get the polio vaccine on the sugar cubes. Very big deal.
Yes, I'm old.

148 baier  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:45am

re: #97 Iron Fist

You can do the same thing a lot quicker and less painfully with a shotgun. Either way, I count them as suicides.

These days, AIDS is less deadly than a shotgun...not that I endorse purposely contracting it.

149 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:51am

re: #91 Summersong

"There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

I've been wondering about that, as well.

I just had this conversation with the nurse at my daughter's school. They only accept medical and religious waivers. She said that yesterday a parent came in with a notarized letter from the kid's doctor and some other form filled out for a "philosophical" waiver, and the nurse turned them down. If they want their kids in my daughter's public school, they have to go get their shots.

But I know the public schools in Monument and Colorado Springs, CO accept "philosophical" waivers because I taught there and had good friends who didn't vaccinate and sent their kids to public school. They were liberal alti-med fans, but most of the anti-vax folks in that area are evangelicals.

150 scrat  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:52am

With the rise of antibiotic-resitant strains, combined with this anti-vax stupidity, could it be that we're coming to the end of a 100-year "Golden Age" of immunity?
Will we again be in danger from every cut, and have increases in child mortality and crippling? Sad to think of...

151 Idle Drifter  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:52am

BBL, got to get ready and go to a job fair. It sucks being out of a job. Everybody take care.

152 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:50:53am

re: #141 Ojoe

The GOP is over

We need a new party.

Uh, the Whigs?

/just a guess

153 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:09am

re: #151 Idle Drifter

BBL, got to get ready and go to a job fair. It sucks being out of a job. Everybody take care.

Prayers coming.

154 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #112 Desert Dog

I infected my brothers, sister and two neighbor kids with Chicken Pox when I was young...my parents and the neighbors parents did it on purpose! They were happy...my "victims" were not.

Same with me. One kid on our cul-de-sac got the Chicken Pox and all the rest of us were put together with him for an afternoon. We all came down with it and all at the same time. It was kinda fun - except for the itching and Calamine lotion.

155 baier  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #147 redstateredneck

I also remember the whole town going to the school to get the polio vaccine on the sugar cubes. Very big deal.
Yes, I'm old.

I used to get something else from a sugar cube...

156 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:16am

re: #137 Spider Mensch

I remember the rubella umbrella..i think that was just a local NYC area thing for kids..on Officer Joe Boltons show..yes we had a kid show with a police character as host back in the day, showed Bugs Bunny cartoons and Little Rascal shorts..it was great!

Holy kids shows. I hadn't heard that name in 45 or more years. A blast from the past (born in Brooklyn).

157 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:21am

re: #142 Nevergiveup

I'm 54, I do every day I look in the mirror. Sigh.

I turned 55 last October. I keep telling myself I'm getting better.
;-)

158 Guanxi88  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:35am

re: #144 Ojoe

Screw both major parties.

Might as well return the favor, huh?

159 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:49am

re: #152 Ward Cleaver

Well, some party that makes sense, the D and the R parties do not make sense anymore.

160 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:55am
161 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:51:55am

re: #141 Ojoe

The GOP is over

We need a new party.

Have a suggestion?
/

162 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:00am

re: #46 Last Mohican

These days, medical schools (at least the one that I went to) are big on teaching acceptance of nontraditional medicine. One aspect of that is being careful to ask patients if they are taking any supplements, herbal medicines, or other "nontraditional" treatments, because some of those can exacerbate medical problems or interact in bad ways with other medications. Another aspect is being supportive of patients who want to try nontraditional therapies, because (1) they mostly don't hurt, and (2) they might help -- we shouldn't presume that as Western scientists we know more than everyone else.

Unfortunately, I feel like I'm seeing more and more patients who insist on nontraditional therapy instead of, rather than in addition to, traditional medicine. People who are literally dying from infections and tumors that could have been easily cured, because they refused to see a traditional doctor. It's pretty upsetting.

I have an aunt around 70 years old, who is suffering from weakness and forgetfulness. Turns out she is taking 15-20 over the counter remedies for various things, in addition to a half dozen or so prescriptions. God only knows the interactions going on in her body. And getting her to stop taking the non-prescribed meds is almost impossible...

163 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:19am

re: #30 Charles

Tancredo also recently appeared at an event sponsored by "Youth for Western Civilization," an openly racist group linked to Marcus Epstein and several other white supremacist groups.

Sure enough, "Youth for Western Civilization" brought Tancredo to speak at UNC, and they tried to bring him to Providence College.

In fact, the front page of YWC's web site has a video of Tancredo speaking at their UNC event (sounding quite reasonable, I thought, by the way), until his talk was violently stopped by pro-illegal-immigration activists who first stood in front of him with their banner, and then through a brick through a window, showering attendees with shattered glass. Here is the video on youtube, but I won't link to YWC, in case Charles doesn't want that.

I've been looking around on YWC's web site, and I haven't found anything that I'd call racist. However, I don't know all the players involved like Charles and some of the rest of y'all do. And Marcus Epstein is apparently a founder of the group. Their site does have a link to Ron Paul's student group.

164 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:22am

re: #143 SanFranciscoZionist

I don't know. Of course, another problem, IIUC, is that infants who haven't yet been vaccinated are vulnerable to contracting the illness. That's not a problem in a fully vaccinated group.

Except in the case where the vaccine is not 100% effective, IIRC. I'm not sure which diseases those are, however.

It's basically very bad all around. Insane.

165 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:27am

re: #134 redstateredneck
They do have a vaccine against chickenpox, so by not getting the kids vaccinated, their kids, should they come down with chickenpox, can infect adults with
Shingles?
Man I hope Oprah hangs out with Jenny personally and then has a kid or three who are infected with the chickenpox come sit on her lap!

166 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:53am

re: #159 Ojoe

Well, some party that makes sense, the D and the R parties do not make sense anymore.

And what is the Whigs party platform?

167 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:55am

re: #150 scrat

With the rise of antibiotic-resitant strains, combined with this anti-vax stupidity, could it be that we're coming to the end of a 100-year "Golden Age" of immunity?
Will we again be in danger from every cut, and have increases in child mortality and crippling? Sad to think of...

And with Obama's coming socialist medicine, the drug industry won't have as many research dollars for new vaccines. We could be in a world of shit.

168 acwgusa  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:58am

In certain counties of the United States, the county health department can forcibly vaccinate you and your children, against your wishes, in cases of public health being threatened.

169 Macker  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:03am

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

Have a suggestion?
/

Nationalist?

/shrugs shoulders

170 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:06am

re: #155 baier

I used to get something else from a sugar cube...

Duuuuude!

171 swamprat  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:12am

re: #141 Ojoe

Just make sure that we all don't bring potato salad.

172 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:13am

re: #155 baier

I used to get something else from a sugar cube...

:D
Back in the day!

173 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:27am
174 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:44am
175 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:45am

re: #167 Ward Cleaver

And with Obama's coming socialist medicine, the drug industry won't have as many research dollars for new vaccines. We could be in a world of shit.


Yes, but we will all be "equally in a world of shit" and that is what really matters.

/

176 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:53:53am

re: #162 JustABill

I have an aunt around 70 years old, who is suffering from weakness and forgetfulness. Turns out she is taking 15-20 over the counter remedies for various things, in addition to a half dozen or so prescriptions. God only knows the interactions going on in her body. And getting her to stop taking the non-prescribed meds is almost impossible...

If I ever reach 70 I want to be taking as many drugs as I can get my hands on.

177 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:54:09am

re: #152 Ward Cleaver

Uh, the Whigs?

/just a guess

Sure but not that name, please, for the love of all that is sacred and good!

178 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:54:32am

re: #171 swamprat

Just make sure that we all don't bring potato salad.

I just hope there's enough deviled eggs. Those always run out too fast.

179 jcbunga  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:54:44am

Won't it be ironic when the anti-vaxxers catch a preventable bug while attending an intelligent design conference, thereby sacrificing themselves in a perfect example of survival of the fittest...if super bugs could laugh, they would find this funny.

180 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:01am

re: #158 Guanxi88

Well put.

R: sells out to big business.
D: aggravates or creates divisions in the country to gain power, then sells out to big business.

And that's just for starters.

181 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:10am

re: #173 buzzsawmonkey

As Shakespeare said, "Aye, there's the rubella."

AAAARRRRGGGHHHH!

182 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:26am

re: #176 Erik The Red

If I ever reach 70 I want to be taking as many drugs as I can get my hands on.

Don't worry, your goal will be reached. My parents are both pushing 80, they carry around a suitcase everywhere they go....it's depressing

183 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:26am

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

not always LOL

184 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:37am
185 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:42am

OT -

(next step in the Obama smackdown of the American people)

Obama seeks to double tax law enforcement budget

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

186 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:55:55am

re: #161 Walter L. Newton

Have a suggestion?
/

One should becareful of what one wishes for in a new political party. I just got majorly creeped out. There's a commentor on a stalker blog publicly advocating for a US version of the VB. I shudder to think that such nuts are actually listened to by certain people.

187 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:56:08am

re: #176 Erik The Red

If I ever reach 70 I want to be taking as many drugs as I can get my hands on.

I love the line from Little Miss Sunshine where Grandpa, who is snorting heroin, says to the grandson that you're foolish to take drugs when you're young, but foolish to not take them when you're old (to paraphrase).

188 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:56:32am

re: #166 Walter L. Newton

Platform

189 descolada9  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:56:39am

Wow, it would really be nice if GOPers could stop doing things that embarrass the rest of us in the party. I have enough health problems as it is and I don't even want to think wold have happened to me if I hadn't gotten the vaccinations that I needed.

It was bad enough when witch doctors in Third World countries were not allowing their villagers to have the shots and when backwater imams were claiming that polio shots were the work of the Great Satan. Now we have the idiots here in the States doing the same.

190 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:56:45am

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

OT -

(next step in the Obama smackdown of the American people)

Obama seeks to double tax law enforcement budget

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

Well they will need that just to go after the Obama Appointees who don't pay their taxes.

191 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:56:46am

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

Here's a philosophical question; should someone who intentionally infects themself with a disease such as AIDS, which requires expensive, ongoing, lifelong treatment, be given a free pass under the new Health For Everyone regime?

We know that they will get that free pass. But why should they when the overweight, or smokers, or any number of other people engaging in "unhealthy lifestyles" are going to clearly be stigmatized?


Buzz - what makes you think that people with AIDS aren't stigmatized?

192 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:57:07am
193 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:57:25am

re: #179 jcbunga

Won't it be ironic when the anti-vaxxers catch a preventable bug while attending an intelligent design conference, thereby sacrificing themselves in a perfect example of survival of the fittest...if super bugs could laugh, they would find this funny.

Please pass what ever you are smoking this way.//

194 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:57:30am

re: #186 Honorary Yooper

One should becareful of what one wishes for in a new political party. I just got majorly creeped out. There's a commentor on a stalker blog publicly advocating for a US version of the VB. I shudder to think that such nuts are actually listened to by certain people.

It's no wonder. Look at the tacit support from this country in the 30's for Hitler.

195 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:58:23am

re: #194 Walter L. Newton

It's no wonder. Look at the tacit support from this country in the 30's for Hitler.

And Mussolini. And Stalin.

196 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:58:33am

re: #191 realwest

Buzz - what makes you think that people with AIDS aren't stigmatized?

Didn't you post one time that you were friends with the lawyer that the movie, "Philadelphia" was based on?
{real}

197 tatterdemalion  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:58:36am

Yes, there are schools that accept children without vacs.

All you have to do is sign a paper stating that it is against your beliefs to vaccinate and your done!

It's ghastly! I had no idea until a few years ago that my kids were going to school with un-vaccinated kids!

Scream "rights violation" and you don't have to vaccinate. How about MY rights?

198 DistantThunder  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:58:52am

Those exemptions have always existed religion, etc.

But here in new Jersey illegal students were admitted without any vaccination records at all. I had to show birth certificate, shot record, and proof of address every time I signed up kids at a new school. But when I worked at the school, I learned that a handful of illegal students had no records whatsoever - not even emergency cards. Merely an empty file with their names.

The scary part was that certain other children had impaired immune systems. It was very irresponsible of the school to allow students who were in a high risk category for contraction of disease with those who were in the high risk category for being carriers of infectious diseases, coming from countries that had a higher than average incidence of those diseases.

199 Lively  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:58:59am

re: #122 redstateredneck

Oh yeah. The whole town came to get them. My mom tested positive because she had been exposed to tb as a child. She also had smallpox, diphtheria, whooping cough, and scarlet fever all by the time she was seven years old. Nursed at home by her mother.

My husband had the measles when he was a child and I had the mumps when I was just a few months old.

/of course I don't remember any of it.

200 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:59:10am

re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist

I think there are a lot more shotgun suicides annually than people who deliberately contract HIV. I kind of suspect this sort of thing is right up there with 'rainbow parties'.

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

201 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:59:11am

re: #160 buzzsawmonkey

I know.

202 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:02am

re: #200 Last Mohican

death culture

203 aggieann  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:28am

re: #51 wee fury

Everyone should read old newspapers.

Or visit old cemeteries to see rows of headstones, with the same family name, for children who died at various young ages.

204 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:36am

re: #196 redstateredneck
Yes I did post that and it is true; the lawyer who had aids in that movie was based entirely on my friend who was fired from his law firm when he developed Karposes Sarcoma (sp)?
Not stigmatized? My ass.

205 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:38am

re: #165 realwest

They do have a vaccine against chickenpox, so by not getting the kids vaccinated, their kids, should they come down with chickenpox, can infect adults with
Shingles?
Man I hope Oprah hangs out with Jenny personally and then has a kid or three who are infected with the chickenpox come sit on her lap!

Supposedly (IIRC), if you've had the chickenpox, you'll likely get the shingles later in life. I think there's a vaccine for the shingles now, too. I thought I saw something about it on the electronic marquee sign at the Walgreens in our town, in the last couple of weeks.

206 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:41am

re: #199 Lively

My husband had the measles when he was a child and I had the mumps when I was just a few months old.

/of course I don't remember any of it.

I would think it would be very difficult for a baby with mumps. It would hurt too much to suck.

207 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:52am

re: #202 Ojoe

STUPID death culture

208 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:00:58am
209 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:01:00am

re: #145 Erik The Red

Legally speaking, a person who has been out of the US that long would have some real problems getting back in. There would be a rebuttable presumption that he/she abandoned the greencard. Nonetheless, they may let the person in while the issue of abandonment is decided, which of course would be too late to prevent the desease issue. In reality, I've seen many cases where the greencard holder was out of the country long enough to trigger the presumption and they were let in with no questions asked.

210 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:01:04am

"There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

You may be 'excused' from vaccinations for documented medical or religious reasons. Here in NJ if your child is 5 or younger and in a pre-school you MUST get your child vaccinated against seasonal flu. Again, politicians know what is best for your family.

211 MrSilverDragon  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:01:28am

re: #200 Last Mohican

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

That crosses the line of stupid and insane. Sex is not supposed to be a death sentence, for crying out loud!

212 DistantThunder  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:01:39am

re: #189 descolada9

Wow, it would really be nice if GOPers could stop doing things that embarrass the rest of us in the party. I have enough health problems as it is and I don't even want to think wold have happened to me if I hadn't gotten the vaccinations that I needed.

It was bad enough when witch doctors in Third World countries were not allowing their villagers to have the shots and when backwater imams were claiming that polio shots were the work of the Great Satan. Now we have the idiots here in the States doing the same.

But it seems that the craziness is on both sides.

213 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:11am

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

OT -

(next step in the Obama smackdown of the American people)

Obama seeks to double tax law enforcement budget

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

I read that headline as Obama wanting to levy a double-tax on law enforcement budgets! LOL!

214 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:28am

re: #200 Last Mohican

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

I love you to death.

215 Macker  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:32am

re: #213 Russkilitlover

I'm not laughing.

216 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:40am

re: #126 realwest

And guess what? If you had chickenpox as a kid, as an adult you can get shingles from being around kids who have chickenpox.
I don't know if they have a vaccine against chickenpox or not, but I'm having trouble accepting Charles' question: "There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?"

There is a chickenpox vaccine. It was first licensed in the US in 1995.

I don't think an adult who has previously had chickenpox, and who has maintained immunity, can catch the virus from a kid with chickenpox. For example, health care personnel who have had chickenpox before don't need to stay away from a patient with chickenpox or shingles.

217 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:41am

re: #200 Last Mohican

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

I've read that as well. In one article a man stated that he felt "more gay" having contracted HIV.

218 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:02:47am

re: #156 Walter L. Newton

Holy kids shows. I hadn't heard that name in 45 or more years. A blast from the past (born in Brooklyn).


yep..home from school at 3pm, snack..Officer Joe Bolton 3:30 to 4pm...some more cartoons at 4pm..krazy Kay and Ignatz mouse, Felix the cat, magilla gorilla, Top cat, etc.. crap like that until the ABC 4:30 afternoon movie, watch until 6pm. Mom and dad home..dinner..what a way to spend a weekday afternoon in the winter.

219 KenJen  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:03:15am

re: #213 Russkilitlover

I read that headline as Obama wanting to levy a double-tax on law enforcement budgets! LOL!

Me too and it didn't suprise me.

220 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:03:17am

re: #200 Last Mohican

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

I'm sure some people do it. I just suspect that it's very rare behavior that gets a lot of media coverage because it's so shocking and bizarre.

221 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:03:31am
222 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:07am

re: #188 Ojoe

Platform

I like it.

223 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:08am

re: #205 Ward Cleaver
Yes they do, but its very recently developed, only works for about 50% of the population and folks with compromised immune systems (like folks with cancer) are almost as likely to develop shingles from the vaccination itself as they are to be protected by it. But I hope they keep working on it and make it better and safer.

224 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:17am

re: #216 Last Mohican

There is a chickenpox vaccine. It was first licensed in the US in 1995.

I don't think an adult who has previously had chickenpox, and who has maintained immunity, can catch the virus from a kid with chickenpox. For example, health care personnel who have had chickenpox before don't need to stay away from a patient with chickenpox or shingles.

From what I understand the chickenpox virus stays in your body and can settle in the nerves and erupt as shingles later in life.

225 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:24am

re: #186 Honorary Yooper

One should becareful of what one wishes for in a new political party. I just got majorly creeped out. There's a commentor on a stalker blog publicly advocating for a US version of the VB. I shudder to think that such nuts are actually listened to by certain people.

We are entering into a state of extremes. The left extreme is encouraged and supported by our President and many in Congress and media; the right extreme is feeling free to come out of the woodwork and expand on latent tendencies. I don't like it.

226 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:31am

re: #222 Ward Cleaver

So do I.

227 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:33am

re: #217 ilzito guacamolito

I've read that as well. In one article a man stated that he felt "more gay" incredibly stupid having intentionally contracted HIV.

FTFY!

228 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:04:58am

re: #201 formercorpsman
Hello my friend - what is it you know? That people with aid aren't stigmatized for it?

229 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:08am

re: #218 Spider Mensch

yep..home from school at 3pm, snack..Officer Joe Bolton 3:30 to 4pm...some more cartoons at 4pm..krazy Kay and Ignatz mouse, Felix the cat, magilla gorilla, Top cat, etc.. crap like that until the ABC 4:30 afternoon movie, watch until 6pm. Mom and dad home..dinner..what a way to spend a weekday afternoon in the winter.

And just when was the homework done..hmmm?
/stern look

230 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:28am
There are actually schools that accept children who haven’t been vaccinated?

'fraid so. In the past, you could get an exemption for religious reasons, or for medical reasons. In such cases, you were required to produce support for your claims in order to opt out.

Now, however, all it takes is one parent to sign a form, with no reason given and no support required.

This is one of the very few times when society's needs exceed the needs of the individual, and require government intervention to ward off potentially horrendous results. I hope we don't have to relive those horrors before we realize what our grandparents knew so well from first-hand experience - that these diseases kill and maim rapaciously and without mercy.

Send that stupid bitch McCarthy and her supporters to go live somewhere vaccinations are never performed for a few years, so they can see the results of their bleating for themselves.

231 Ojoe  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:34am

BBL

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:36am

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey

I didn't mean to suggest they weren't; you misunderstand.

I am merely pointing out that there have been preliminary rumblings that if/when Obie foists National Health on us, those people who don't live "healthy lifestyles"--smokers, the sedentary, the overweight, those who might drink to excess--may somehow be found less than worthy of the new bounty of healthcare.

In other words, judgments are already being made--before we get National Health--about who is "worthy" of receiving it. It's one way to "keep" a promise--and keep the costs down; judge people who are in the most need of maintenance treatment as unworthy because of their own "bad choices", and you don't have to treat them for free, or not entirely for free. You save money, and get to moralize.

So, what about people who intentionally infect themselves with a life-threatening disease that is extremely expensive to treat. Is that a lifestyle choice that gets freely funded? If smokers have to, say, pay a "bad lifestyle choice" premium to get their NatHealth goodies, will the same apply to people who have intentionally courted AIDS?

Harder to prove. But I'm not holding my breath for a national healthcare program, so...meh.

233 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:45am

Gay fringe 'contract HIV deliberately'; Fury at secret subculture

The [Rolling Stone] article states that up to 25% of newly infected gay men actually sought out the virus - driven either by the erotic appeal of inheriting a fatal disease through sex or because they see becoming HIV positive as inevitable and would rather take control of the situation by infecting themselves. ...

Internet sites are dedicated to bug-chasing, in which men who want the virus are called "bug-chasers" and the men who deliberately give them HIV are called "gift givers". There are a number of websites that encourage it and ridicule the use of condoms or safe sex. There are also "conversion" parties, in which HIV-positive and HIV- negative men gather with the goal of having HIV-positive men infect others.

234 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:05:46am

re: #191 realwest

Real, I think the thrust of the post was qualifying by the (philosophical) note at the beginning.

Overall, it is the absurdity in the risk taking, and deliberate nature of the subject.

We all know smoking is unhealthy. The government has certainly voiced an opinion as to the shared health costs to taxpayers funding medicare as a result. It was also used as justification with the lawsuits against the tobacco companies.

I think Buzz is making the argument, how the same government puts so much money towards aids education, prevention, & treatment, that such a jackass exists on the surface of this earth who deliberately infect themselves with HIV as a sort of badge.

235 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:06:00am

re: #219 KenJen

Me too and it didn't suprise me.

My only surprise was in thinking that I didn't know law enforcement budgets were taxed. But I wasn't surprised that Obama would want to double tax them.

236 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:06:44am
237 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:06:51am

re: #209 Flyers1974

Legally speaking, a person who has been out of the US that long would have some real problems getting back in. There would be a rebuttable presumption that he/she abandoned the greencard. Nonetheless, they may let the person in while the issue of abandonment is decided, which of course would be too late to prevent the desease issue. In reality, I've seen many cases where the greencard holder was out of the country long enough to trigger the presumption and they were let in with no questions asked.

I am a American Citizen born and bred. This has nothing to do with me. What I was saying is all the vaccinations my family has had to get are more than I need to return. I have had to have none. Yet they must have, to get their Green Card.

238 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:06:55am

re: #229 redstateredneck

And just when was the homework done..hmmm?
/stern look


40 years later I still have Phonics homework thats late...lol

239 jcbunga  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:07:04am

re: #200 Last Mohican

I remember reading some articles about people who deliberately have sex with HIV-infected people, in order to try to contract HIV from them. The idea was that you can only contract HIV once, so the act of doing so is sort of special, and permanently bonds one to the person who contributed the virus.

Mother Nature has a solution for everything.

240 DistantThunder  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:08:00am

re: #239 jcbunga

Mother Nature has a solution for everything.

If you're going to be stupid, you'd better be tough. - Mr DT's favorite saying

241 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:08:08am

re: #205 Ward Cleaver

Supposedly (IIRC), if you've had the chickenpox, you'll likely get the shingles later in life. I think there's a vaccine for the shingles now, too. I thought I saw something about it on the electronic marquee sign at the Walgreens in our town, in the last couple of weeks.

I got my shingles vax a couple of weeks ago. The shot is in short supply and I had to wait several months to get mine.
BTW, I got shingles in my late 20's from being exposed to chicken pox, which I had not had when I was a kid.

242 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:08:14am

re: #224 redstateredneck

From what I understand the chickenpox virus stays in your body and can settle in the nerves and erupt as shingles later in life.

Yes. In fact it always stays in your body, remaining dormant in the dorsal root ganglia, which are indeed parts of nerves. It may or may not reactivate later, which causes shingles. Someone with shingles can then transmit the virus to a previously uninfected person, who in that case would get chickenpox.

243 Gella  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:08:29am

so, why can't vaccination be made mandatory? In some countries it is mandatory.

244 doppelganglander  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:08:45am

re: #137 Spider Mensch

I remember the rubella umbrella..i think that was just a local NYC area thing for kids..on Officer Joe Boltons show..yes we had a kid show with a police character as host back in the day, showed Bugs Bunny cartoons and Little Rascal shorts..it was great!

I remember the rubella umbrella, floating down the street in a really creepy way. My brother had German measles when we were very small and I thought I'd had, too, until I first went on birth control pills in my 20s. The bloodwork revealed I was not immune so they gave me the shot. Imagine if I'd gotten pregnant before I was immunized and I'd come across one of these unvaccinated crumb crunchers.

245 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:07am

re: #233 Last Mohican

Gay fringe 'contract HIV deliberately'; Fury at secret subculture

Right, just like I would seek out Dracula because I wanted to be one of the undead. Erotic my eye.

246 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:16am

re: #203 aggieann

Or visit old cemeteries to see rows of headstones, with the same family name, for children who died at various young ages.

When I was a kid, my mom helped me with an assignment for health class, to put together a family tree. I was amazed at how many of my grandparents' siblings and cousins (this would have been in the late 19th and early 20th century) died young.

Also, my mom's parents took in and raised some of their relatives' kids, after their parents died young, in the 1920s. Plenty of sad stories about kids who cried for their mamas that were never coming back.

247 Racer X  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:18am

re: #224 redstateredneck

From what I understand the chickenpox virus stays in your body and can settle in the nerves and erupt as shingles later in life.

True.

Shingles are a bitch.

248 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:45am

All I remember about having rubella was how sensitive my eyes were to light. Mom had to hang heavy drapes over my bedroom windows to block out the sun.

249 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:47am

re: #245 Walter L. Newton

Erotic my eye.

/I guess that depends on whether you have an eye fetish.

250 calcajun  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:09:56am

Look at the bright side. Now we get to see a little social Darwinism--though unintentional./

Folks can believe what they want, but when they put others at risk, then that is a different story.

251 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:10:11am

re: #216 Last Mohican
NO, you can't catch chickenpox if you already had it as a kid or were vaccinated, but as an adult you can get shingles - a particularly nasty illness - from being exposed to someone who has chickenpox. But you can't give chickenpox to someone else.
And of course folks with compromised immune systems can get shingles from kids who have chickenpox - I know, I have a compromised immune system (from cancer) and I got shingles in 2007. From a kid with chickenpox in my doc's waiting room, no doubt!

252 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:10:17am
253 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:10:24am

All this so Fire Marshal Bill can get laid.

254 Cato  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:10:50am

We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.

I think this is a more difficult issue than you do. It is certainly dumb for parents not to vaccinate their kids. However, who is responsible for bring those kids up, the parents or the state? I hope you are clearly on the side of the parents.

Since any other set of parents has the ability to vaccinate their own children, the unvaccinated do not create a harm to society as a whole, only to others who opt out. Thus, what you are objecting to is the unwarranted risk. I understand that. But as a legal matter, I think this is on pretty strong theoretical grounds.

255 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:10:59am

re: #247 Racer X

True.

Shingles are a bitch.

/I much prefer Spanish tiles. They are more expensive, but the aesthetic . . .

256 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:02am

re: #247 Racer X

True.

Shingles are a bitch.

My daughter had them at 16! She kept telling me that her "skin hurt" and I couldn't figure out what the hell she was talking about until the shingles actually erupted a few days later. Took her to the doctor and he prescribed Valtrex.

257 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:19am

re: #251 realwest

I was wondering if you were gonna share that experience.

If I remember, that was a pretty nasty time you had.

258 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:37am
259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:39am

OT - well it looks like Andrew Bostom doesn't like his blog to contain comments that are contrary to him. He deleted my comment on the his Bawer article. By the way, the only comment on attached to the article was mine.

260 MrSilverDragon  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:43am

re: #239 jcbunga

Mother Nature has a solution for everything.

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.

261 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:49am

re: #251 realwest

I remember you getting them.

262 aggieann  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:11:57am

re: #175 Desert Dog

Yes, but we will all be "equally in a world of shit" and that is what really matters.

/

Churchill: "Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery."

263 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:12:03am

re: #233 Last Mohican

Gay fringe 'contract HIV deliberately'; Fury at secret subculture

Dumbasses. I was a little kid in San Francisco during the worst days of the first big wave of AIDS. My daycare teacher lost--God, friend after friend. Some of them he laid out for burial himself, because the chevra kadisha was afraid to handle the bodies. The rabbi at Shaar Zahav did funeral after funeral for years.

To go hunting AIDS out...it makes me want to SMACK these guys.

264 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:12:20am

re: #252 buzzsawmonkey

Vampirism has always had an erotic tinge. There are people fascinated with vampires for precisely this reason.

Never could see it, myself.

Did you ever see the skit on SNL with James Woods as Dracula? He would walk up to a woman and start asking about her sexual background....he was getting frustrated because all of them had high risks for HIV and he could not bite them...it was pretty funny.

265 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:12:27am

re: #221 buzzsawmonkey
Ah, sorry, you're right, I did misunderstand and yes, I suppose people who have "unhealthy lifestyles" would include people with AIDS (unless they can show they got it by a blood transfusion, which I understand today is virtually impossible)?

266 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #258 buzzsawmonkey

Shakes. Get the shakes.

Ce,dar you go again being punny...

267 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:13:22am

re: #233 Last Mohican

Do you suppose there are some sympathetic heteros who will want to show support for their gay "brothers" and get......(sigh...anything and everything is possible).

268 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:13:26am

re: #254 Cato

We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.

I think this is a more difficult issue than you do. It is certainly dumb for parents not to vaccinate their kids. However, who is responsible for bring those kids up, the parents or the state? I hope you are clearly on the side of the parents.

Since any other set of parents has the ability to vaccinate their own children, the unvaccinated do not create a harm to society as a whole, only to others who opt out. Thus, what you are objecting to is the unwarranted risk. I understand that. But as a legal matter, I think this is on pretty strong theoretical grounds.

You've not been following this debate, have you?

269 zebulah  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:13:43am

I had whooping cough the winter of 2007-2008. It's a pretty serious disease even for an adult. The Chinese call it a "100-Day Cough" for a reason. And the so-called paroxysms are really scary. They are not like sleep apnea, the experience is more like waterboarding.

I had been vaccinated as a child, but the vaccine wears off. I have read that there is talk of recommending a re-inoculation at the age of 11 or so. Sounds like a good idea to me.

These anti-vax people are out of their minds.

270 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:13:47am
271 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:13:47am

re: #244 doppelganglander

I remember the rubella umbrella, floating down the street in a really creepy way. My brother had German measles when we were very small and I thought I'd had, too, until I first went on birth control pills in my 20s. The bloodwork revealed I was not immune so they gave me the shot. Imagine if I'd gotten pregnant before I was immunized and I'd come across one of these unvaccinated crumb crunchers.

The there was Pica balloon...it had something to do with eating lead paint chips I think.... "lead paint! delicious chips of death!

272 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:14:06am

re: #260 MrSilverDragon

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.

Sounds like its time to hand out Darwin Awards, however, given the group of whom we are speaking, I do not think that passing on the genes is a great likelihood anyway (NTTIAWWT))

273 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:14:07am
274 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:14:10am

re: #260 MrSilverDragon

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.

Maybe this is a way of weeding out the stupid.

275 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:14:40am

Attorney General Eric Holder tried to reassure worried lawmakers Thursday that no Guantanamo Bay detainees thought to be terrorists will be released into the United States.

[Link: www.foxnews.com...]

What BULLSHIT. He said "thought to be terrorists". And we know he doesn't think some of them are terrorists. How stupid are those Senators?

276 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:14:53am

re: #230 SixDegrees

'fraid so. In the past, you could get an exemption for religious reasons, or for medical reasons. In such cases, you were required to produce support for your claims in order to opt out.

Now, however, all it takes is one parent to sign a form, with no reason given and no support required.

This is one of the very few times when society's needs exceed the needs of the individual, and require government intervention to ward off potentially horrendous results. I hope we don't have to relive those horrors before we realize what our grandparents knew so well from first-hand experience - that these diseases kill and maim rapaciously and without mercy.

Send that stupid bitch McCarthy and her supporters to go live somewhere vaccinations are never performed for a few years, so they can see the results of their bleating for themselves.

I had a friend in the 80's with polio. Smart gal, worked in our accounting dept. She was born in Cuba - no vaccinations. Everyone who met her and knew her condition commented on how horrible it was that she wasn't vaccinated for a disease that was completely curable. There was no good reason why she had to suffer like that.

In this age of new technologies and curable disease, I can't grasp what goes through the public mind over this. Since when did we start putting Hollywood's advice over scientists? Especially that freakin slut McCarthy.

277 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:15:03am

re: #185 Walter L. Newton

OT -

(next step in the Obama smackdown of the American people)

Obama seeks to double tax law enforcement budget

[Link: www.reuters.com...]

So much for the kindler, gentler IRS. They're going to be auditing the shit out of people.

278 Cato  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:15:16am

re: #268 MandyManners


No. I work and just check in every bit.

279 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:15:33am

re: #254 Cato

We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.

I think this is a more difficult issue than you do. It is certainly dumb for parents not to vaccinate their kids. However, who is responsible for bring those kids up, the parents or the state? I hope you are clearly on the side of the parents.

Since any other set of parents has the ability to vaccinate their own children, the unvaccinated do not create a harm to society as a whole, only to others who opt out. Thus, what you are objecting to is the unwarranted risk. I understand that. But as a legal matter, I think this is on pretty strong theoretical grounds.

Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses that let their children die instead of giving them cancer treatments, etc?

280 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:15:35am

re: #259 Walter L. Newton

OT - well it looks like Andrew Bostom doesn't like his blog to contain comments that are contrary to him. He deleted my comment on the his Bawer article. By the way, the only comment on attached to the article was mine.

Wow. What a prick that guy is. The Kos of the right.

281 ShanghaiEd  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:15:48am

Chicken pox kicked my 11-year-old butt, in a major way. I was a scrawny kid to begin with, but when the intestinal outbursts were over I had lost down to 55 pounds. I looked like a refugee. A very splotchy refugee.

282 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:02am

re: #268 MandyManners

what happened to the P.S. BS of "Zero Tolerance"?

283 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:04am

re: #275 Nevergiveup

A How stupid are those Senators?

Rhetorical question?

284 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:07am

re: #277 Ward Cleaver

So much for the kindler, gentler IRS. They're going to be auditing the shit out of people.

With Geithner sitting on top, Mwwhhaaahaaahaaa.
Ass blister.

285 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:11am

re: #251 realwest

NO, you can't catch chickenpox if you already had it as a kid or were vaccinated, but as an adult you can get shingles - a particularly nasty illness - from being exposed to someone who has chickenpox. But you can't give chickenpox to someone else.
And of course folks with compromised immune systems can get shingles from kids who have chickenpox - I know, I have a compromised immune system (from cancer) and I got shingles in 2007. From a kid with chickenpox in my doc's waiting room, no doubt!

This is ringing a bell. I think we may have discussed this before.

I just re-read the wikipedia article to make sure I had this right. So much for the medical literature.

It confirmed my understanding that the shingles you got in 2007 couldn't have been from a kid in the waiting room, it had to be from reactivation of the virus, with which you had been previously infected at some point when you had chickenpox.

In any case, if you do have shingles for any reason, then you are extremely contagious, and you can give a previously unexposed person chickenpox.

286 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:18am

re: #279 Ben Hur

Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses that let their children die instead of giving them cancer treatments, etc?

Religious grounds are one thing; stupidity grounds are another.

287 StillAMarine  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:37am

Why do the kooks such as these anti-vaccination nuts always seem to be Republicans? Leave things to them, and the moonbats will be ensconced in Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court until the cosmos dies a heat death.
We need to keep to our core principles such as fiscal responsibility, smaller government, and less intrusion into our daily lives in mind, while letting the Democrats self destruct.

I do not consider such things as a strong military, good roads and a vaccinated citizenry to be an intrusion into our daily lives, but necessary conditions for a viable state.

288 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:16:55am

re: #237 Erik The Red

Got it, misunderstood you there for a minute. Unless there is a constitutional argument against preventing US citizens from reentering the country without vaccinations, and I'm not aware of any such argument, I'd have to wonder why there wouldn't be such a law. Unless to difficult to put into practice, maybe.

289 MrSilverDragon  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:25am

re: #274 MandyManners

Maybe this is a way of weeding out the stupid.

It certainly looks that way, I'm just not gonna blame mommy natural for it. :)

290 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:27am

re: #279 Ben Hur

Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses that let their children die instead of giving them cancer treatments, etc?

Jehovah's Witnesses are opposed to blood transfusion, for religious reasons I have never totally understood.

Christian Scientists, at least some of them, are opposed to medicine in general.

291 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:29am

re: #277 Ward Cleaver

So much for the kindler, gentler IRS. They're going to be auditing the shit out of people political opponents.

292 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:32am
293 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:35am

re: #271 Spider Mensch

The there was Pica balloon...it had something to do with eating lead paint chips I think.... "lead paint! delicious chips of death!


Isn't Pica eating non food items...newsprint, dirt, etc.?

294 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:17:48am

re: #278 Cato

No. I work and just check in every bit.

Maybe you should look up the other threads Charles has started on this subject so that you can understand the dangers to our nation that these nuts create.

295 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:02am

re: #284 SasquatchOnSteroids

With Geithner sitting on top, Mwwhhaaahaaahaaa.
Ass blister.

"I paid up - so should you!"

296 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:10am

re: #254 Cato

We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children from school vaccinations requirements for medical reasons, religious reasons, or other reasons of conscience.

I think this is a more difficult issue than you do. It is certainly dumb for parents not to vaccinate their kids. However, who is responsible for bring those kids up, the parents or the state? I hope you are clearly on the side of the parents.

Since any other set of parents has the ability to vaccinate their own children, the unvaccinated do not create a harm to society as a whole, only to others who opt out. Thus, what you are objecting to is the unwarranted risk. I understand that. But as a legal matter, I think this is on pretty strong theoretical grounds.

What my kids rights not to get infected? The strain on a health care system already stretched. These parents are selfish and self absorbed.

297 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:15am

re: #261 redstateredneck
Yeah and it was a very nasty time, since I couldn't stop taking my cancer meds and some of the meds didn't exactly "agree" with prednisone - primary drug used for shingles pain.
And just for the record, I'd like to say that anyone who deliberately contracts AIDS is stupid. Smokers are, I'm afraid, in a different boat - we are addicted and never knew we would be before we started (I'm talking about us older folks!).

298 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:20am

re: #282 AuntAcid

what happened to the P.S. BS of "Zero Tolerance"?

That doesn't apply here.

299 saberry0530  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:33am

Karma!


Oldest son goes to the DMV to get drivers license renewed. Opens at 8:00AM, he arrives 7:40AM, 3rd in line. 4th in line is the largest man he has ever seen. Says that he was at least 6'8" or larger 350 to 375 lbs of nothing but muscle. CLock strikes 8 am and just as the door s are starting to open, some 125 lbs guy makes a break for the front of the line. The big guy reaches down and literally picks the guy up by the neck and asks him where does he think he is going. THrows the guy toward the back of the line which now has over 30 people in it and says you need to be at the end. Everyone in line applauded. Son laughed about that the rest of the day.

300 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:40am

re: #279 Ben Hur

Jehovah's Witnesses and Christan Scientists. No blood transfusions, either.

301 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:42am

Anti-vexers rely on the rest of us parents who do vaccinate our kids to make sure theirs don't get sick.

302 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:44am

re: #295 Ward Cleaver

"I paid up - so should you!"

HA !

303 meeshlr  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:18:56am

re: #237 Erik The Red

I am a American Citizen born and bred. This has nothing to do with me. What I was saying is all the vaccinations my family has had to get are more than I need to return. I have had to have none. Yet they must have, to get their Green Card.

I'm not surprised. A US citizen has a right to return to the United States but potential immigrants don't have a right to a green card so the government can institute reasonable "hoops" to jump through to obtain a green card.

The same thing happened when I applied for permanent resident status in Canada. My husband didn't have to do anything to return. I had to have a physical, chest x-ray, blood tests, and document immunizations.

304 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:19:15am

re: #279 Ben Hur

Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses that let their children die instead of giving them cancer treatments, etc?

They prohibit whole blood transfusions only. That's it, not other medical restrictions. Plasma and blood expanders ok.

305 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:19:21am

re: #287 StillAMarine

Why do the kooks such as these anti-vaccination nuts always seem to be Republicans? Leave things to them, and the moonbats will be ensconced in Congress, the White House, and the Supreme Court until the cosmos dies a heat death.
We need to keep to our core principles such as fiscal responsibility, smaller government, and less intrusion into our daily lives in mind, while letting the Democrats self destruct.

I do not consider such things as a strong military, good roads and a vaccinated citizenry to be an intrusion into our daily lives, but necessary conditions for a viable state.

Oprah's not a Republican nor is Jenny McCarthy.

306 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:19:35am

re: #252 buzzsawmonkey

Vampirism has always had an erotic tinge. There are people fascinated with vampires for precisely this reason.

Never could see it, myself.

Pardon me, boy, is this the Transylvania Station?

307 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:00am

re: #287 StillAMarine

Why do the kooks such as these anti-vaccination nuts always seem to be Republicans?

Um....hello? Jennie McCarthy, Jim Carey, Oprah Republicans? Not bloody likely. Dems and Repubs meet on this issue.

308 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:04am

re: #287 StillAMarine

Anti-vax crosses party lines, unless Oprah and Jenny McCarthy are big closet Republicans.

309 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:10am

re: #289 MrSilverDragon

It certainly looks that way, I'm just not gonna blame mommy natural for it. :)

Mother nature is disgusted.

310 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:32am

re: #13 Macker

Since these anti-vaxers are this stupid, perhaps the herd has to be culled so.

If Jenny McCarthy developed smallpox tomorrow, I would be handing out candy in the streets in celebration.

Unfortunately, it isn't the adults who would be culled, maimed or even wised up by these diseases. It would be their children suffering because of their parent's stupidity.

I see little difference here between the anti-vax morons and the Christian Scientists who believe they can make their children better by praying away their diabetes, meningitis or leukemia. In those cases, it is commonplace for a judge to brush aside such stupidity and order treatment for the child. The same thing ought to be done if parents refuse to vaccinate their children.

Failing that, keep their kids out of my school and away from my kids.

And, just to round out my rant, the Feds ought to be taking the lead on this through intensive advertising and education programs. Instead of flogging the illusory severity of Swine Flu before it has even been ascertained how severe the disease is, the CDC and the Surgeon General's Office ought to be hammering this home at every opportunity, with visits to schools and workplaces, TV and radio spots, and additional educational campaigns aimed at the pediatric community.

Because this is Just. Fucking. Stupid. There's no other word for it. Except, in Jenny McCarthy's case, the one that starts with a "C".

OK, I better stop now. I'm going to go take deep, relaxing breaths for a while.

311 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:39am

re: #292 buzzsawmonkey

Is Jenny McCarthy a Republican?

Dollars to donuts, no.

Are you sure? She ran all those commie-hunting hearings back in the 50s, didn't she?

312 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:50am

re: #309 MandyManners

Mother nature is disgusted.


Don't piss that bitch off!

313 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:51am

re: #290 SanFranciscoZionist

Jehovah's Witnesses are opposed to blood transfusion, for religious reasons I have never totally understood.

Christian Scientists, at least some of them, are opposed to medicine in general.

It has been explained to me as their interpretation of the Biblical injunction against eating blood.

/I know

314 Walter L. Newton  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:20:56am

re: #300 redstateredneck

Jehovah's Witnesses and Christan Scientists. No blood transfusions, either.

They prohibit whole blood transfusions only. That's it, not other medical restrictions. Plasma and blood expanders ok.

315 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:21:05am
316 Cato the Elder  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:21:10am

re: #279 Ben Hur

Is it the Jehovah's Witnesses that let their children die instead of giving them cancer treatments, etc?

Christian Scientists, sometimes. There have been trials.

317 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:21:41am

re: #315 buzzsawmonkey

Maybe the thing to do is start selling vaccinations with sex.

"Brazilian body-vax" has a certain ring to it.

Just looking for a way to add to the pain are you?

318 meeshlr  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:21:55am

re: #254 Cato


Since any other set of parents has the ability to vaccinate their own children, the unvaccinated do not create a harm to society as a whole, only to others who opt out. Thus, what you are objecting to is the unwarranted risk. I understand that. But as a legal matter, I think this is on pretty strong theoretical grounds.

Actually, the unvaccinated do create a harm for society as a whole. First, they place people who cannot (as opposed to will not) be vaccinated at higher risk of infection. Also, vaccines are not always 100% effective. Their effectiveness increases with herd immunity but more unprotected people increases the risk for everyone.

319 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:21:58am

re: #314 Walter L. Newton

They prohibit whole blood transfusions only. That's it, not other medical restrictions. Plasma and blood expanders ok.

okey doke.

320 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:22:12am

re: #306 Occasional Reader

Pardon me, boy, is this the Transylvania Station?

O I'm positive

321 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:22:16am

re: #306 Occasional Reader

Pardon me, boy, is this the Transylvania Station?

Aorta whack you for getting into the puns here.

322 Captain Cool  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:22:29am

Tom Tancredo should stick to the illegal immigration issue. He risks alienating many people with statements like this about vaccines.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:03am

re: #313 OldLineTexan

It has been explained to me as their interpretation of the Biblical injunction against eating blood.

/I know

I've posted this before, but it fits so nicely:

Two men are having a sincere discussion about the conflicts between their faiths and their lifestyles. "It's hard to be a gay Catholic," one says.

"You think you've got problems," the other replies, "Try being a Jehovah's Witness vampire."

324 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:07am

re: #321 MandyManners

Aorta whack you for getting into the puns here.

I agree. This really sucks.

325 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:18am

re: #321 MandyManners

Aorta whack you for getting into the puns here.

I think you are then going to whack in vein. The puns have begun.

326 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:29am

re: #254 Cato
Please see my #251 and Last Mohican's post on the subject of shingles. Some diseases from unvaccinated people can be transmitted to others as a different variant (chickenpox and shingles, for example).

327 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:39am

re: #320 AuntAcid

O I'm positive

I'm not gonna' B negative today.

328 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:40am

re: #293 redstateredneck

Isn't Pica eating non food items...newsprint, dirt, etc.?

Yup.

329 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:42am

re: #308 OldLineTexan

Anti-vax crosses party lines, unless Oprah and Jenny McCarthy are big closet Republicans.

Idiots of every stripe.

330 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:23:43am

re: #321 MandyManners

Aorta whack you for getting into the puns here.

He's so vein he won't notice.

331 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:24:08am

re: #233 Last Mohican

Your article was from 2003. I challenge anyone here to find something more recent that gay men are still doing this. And quite frankly, I bet that article was quite old when it was published. Gay men did do this, but way back in the 90s when there was no way of dealing with it. Today, you can live a 100% normal life HIV positive and that's been for quite some time.

332 Wendya  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:24:36am

re: #149 funky chicken

I just had this conversation with the nurse at my daughter's school. They only accept medical and religious waivers. She said that yesterday a parent came in with a notarized letter from the kid's doctor and some other form filled out for a "philosophical" waiver, and the nurse turned them down. If they want their kids in my daughter's public school, they have to go get their shots.

But I know the public schools in Monument and Colorado Springs, CO accept "philosophical" waivers because I taught there and had good friends who didn't vaccinate and sent their kids to public school. They were liberal alti-med fans, but most of the anti-vax folks in that area are evangelicals.

I suspect most of the anti-vaccination parents are young enough not to have any memory of disease outbreaks. They got their shots at the doctors office and didn't think twice about it. I was born in '63 and remember getting shots in the school cafeteria. Polio was still a big deal back then. These parents reaped the benefits of the early vaccination campaigns and now they're subjecting their kids to diseases our parents fought to eradicate or reduce.

333 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:24:38am

It's Not Nice To Fool Mother Naturere: #312 redstateredneck

Don't piss that bitch off!

334 JHW  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:24:40am

This really, really irks me. My father had me and my brother fairly late in life, he was the youngest of 13 children, born just after the turn of 19 to 20th century. I've been looking at family history, photos of young, beautiful women, my aunts, that I never knew. All dead in early youth, from whooping cough, measles, scarlet fever. Grandmother had a lifetime of heartbreaks, most of her children dying before age 25. All that's left are photos that I had a hard time even putting a name to, they didn't get the slightest chance of a life that these fools take for granted. 6 out of the 13 children made it to age 30, sad beyond belief to me and these idiots want to return to these dark ages.

335 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:24:46am

re: #273 buzzsawmonkey

My point is that what is an "unhealthy lifestyle" is in the process of being politically determined, and that some will be in and some will be out.

That perturbs me.

This worries me too and illustrates one of the many contradictions I see in leftist collective thought. While the left supports radical individuality from the standpoint of "doing your own thing", they will use the full power of the state to stamp out other, unapproved, indiviudal behaviors because they threaten the collective 'good'.
The indiviudal will be suborndinated and sacrificed if necessary to the collective. And the state defines what is in the collective's interest and that is scary.
The similarities to Soviet collectivism are all lurking out there. The only difference will be in the semantics of what they call it. They will clothe their statist intentions in harmless sounding, soft words but the reality of their enforcement will be anything but.

336 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:00am

re: #324 ilzito guacamolito

I agree. This really sucks.

re: #325 Creeping Eruption

I think you are then going to whack in vein. The puns have begun.

Fangs a lot, you two!

337 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:07am

re: #328 Last Mohican

Yup.

Only Pica, not Times New Roman or Gothic?

/ducking

338 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:18am

re: #331 American Sabra

Your article was from 2003. I challenge anyone here to find something more recent that gay men are still doing this. And quite frankly, I bet that article was quite old when it was published. Gay men did do this, but way back in the 90s when there was no way of dealing with it. Today, you can live a 100% normal life HIV positive and that's been for quite some time.

I think that percentage is a bit high, don't you? I mean, the drugs, the precautions, etc.?

339 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:23am

re: #321 MandyManners

Aorta whack you for getting into the puns here.

Is punning some sort of personal hobglobulin to you?

340 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:27am
341 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:56am

re: #336 MandyManners

Fangs a lot, you two!

It's time to put a stake in this one.

342 NelsFree  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:25:58am

Fundamentalist Muslims forbid vaccinations for anyone, because...
vaccinations did not exist in the time of Mohammed!
W.H.O. medical teams have been harrassed and some even killed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

343 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:00am

re: #271 Spider Mensch

The there was Pica balloon...it had something to do with eating lead paint chips I think.... "lead paint! delicious chips of death!

Pica is the desire to eat dirt. Most common from a lack of iron and other minerals in the diet. It can also be caused by a developmental disorder. Some sufferers did eat paint chips or other dangerous substances.

344 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:11am

re: #336 MandyManners

Fangs a lot, you two!

Perhaps I should re-vamp my post, lest I dry Mandy's ire

345 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:12am

Blood puns served on a platelet

346 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:16am

re: #332 Wendya

We even got drug to the MALL once for a big innoculation party.

The only thing I have seen to compare are the Army processing center photos from WW2.

347 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:34am

re: #344 Creeping Eruption

Perhaps I should re-vamp my post, lest I dry draw Mandy's ire

348 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:35am

re: #331 American Sabra

Gay men did do this, but way back in the 90s when there was no way of dealing with it. Today, you can live a 100% normal life HIV positive and that's been for quite some time.

Of course... the logic there is completely, uh, inverted. (One would presumably have even LESS incentive to go "bug hunting" in 1990 than in 2009.)

349 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:26:49am

re: #330 OldLineTexan

He's so vein he won't notice.

He does know how to mirror good behavior.

350 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:27:26am

re: #339 Occasional Reader

Is punning some sort of personal hobglobulin to you?

It just sticks in my throat.

351 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:27:56am

re: #344 Creeping Eruption

Perhaps I should re-vamp my post, lest I dry Mandy's ire

Do you really think these Dracula puns might Stoker into a rage?

352 Cato  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:00am

re: #318 meeshlr


If that is correct, and it is quantifiable and significant, then compulsory vaccinations make sense as a legal matter. And in some respects there is a simultaneous equation involved: The greater the percentage of unvaxed, the greater the health reasons to make it compulsory.

353 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:00am

re: #340 buzzsawmonkey

If you don't mind rattling like a marracca from all the pills you have to take.

Crap- I get that just for being a middle aged man with allergies, reflux and slightly high cholesterol. My nightstand looks like a freaking pharmacy counter.

Vegetarianism is looking more and more sensible.

354 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:02am

re: #307 Russkilitlover

Um....hello? Jennie McCarthy, Jim Carey, Oprah Republicans? Not bloody likely. Dems and Repubs meet on this issue.

As I said before, the Gaia-worshipping left and the creationist right meet at Anti-Vax Junction.

355 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:04am

re: #341 Ward Cleaver

It's time to put a stake in this one.

Before someone blows a casket!

356 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:06am
357 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:16am

re: #333 Russkilitlover

It's Not Nice To Fool Mother Nature

Or she'll give you Ring Around The Collar.

358 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:40am

re: #338 OldLineTexan

I think that percentage is a bit high, don't you? I mean, the drugs, the precautions, etc.?

Beats the hell out of dying an excruiating death.

My grandmother took a cocktail of pills every day and she lived a normal life too (no she didn't have AIDS, just a bad ticker).

My point is there is no "reason" to infect each other any more. This is very old news.

359 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #328 Last Mohican

Yup.

A black friend of mine told me that when they were kids they'd sit out by a clay bank with spoons and eat clay. She had an aunt in Chicago and her mother would mail her a box of clay so she could have good ole Mississippi clay up there!

360 KenJen  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:50am

re: #351 Occasional Reader

Do you really think these Dracula puns might Stoker into a rage?

I wouldn't stake my life on it.

361 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:53am

re: #351 Occasional Reader

Do you really think these Dracula puns might Stoker into a rage?


I'd stake my heart on it!

362 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:54am

re: #285 Last Mohican
Yes we did discuss this (I'm amazed at how good the memory of some LGFer's is!) but my doctor told me to sorta self-quarantine myself (which I did) because I couldn't give shingles to anyone else, but I could give chickenpox to someone not vaccinated or who never had it before.
If I said that incorrectly before, I apologize.

363 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:58am

re: #310 SixDegrees

I see little difference here between the anti-vax morons and the Christian Scientists who believe they can make their children better by praying away their diabetes, meningitis or leukemia. In those cases, it is commonplace for a judge to brush aside such stupidity and order treatment for the child. The same thing ought to be done if parents refuse to vaccinate their children.

Interesting ethical issues there. Jehova's Witnesses, for example, refuse to accept blood transfusions, even if they'll bleed to death without them. As a doctor, I'm required to respect those wishes, and do everything I can to help them without a transfusion, but let them die if necessary. But I have to transfuse their children against the parents' will, if necessary.

364 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:28:58am

re: #344 Creeping Eruption

Perhaps I should re-vamp my post, lest I dry Mandy's ire

You're quite capable.

365 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:29:05am

re: #356 buzzsawmonkey

It's true, there are more serious things on our platelet.

let me know when this thread coagulates

366 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:29:10am

maybe some of the anti vax group should take a walk through some of the older cemetery's and look at the ages alot of people died at in the early 1900's..our grandparents and parents know why..the anti vax crowd needs a history lesson.

367 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:29:37am

re: #356 buzzsawmonkey

It's true, there are more serious things on our platelet.

Indeed, and most Americans are just sitting there hypnotized by their plasma televisions.

368 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:29:40am

re: #292 buzzsawmonkey

Is Jenny McCarthy a Republican?

Dollars to donuts, no.

She's a brainless slut. I'd guess she's a Democrat, only because it has less letters than "Republican" and that makes things easier for her.

369 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:29:50am

re: #356 buzzsawmonkey

It's true, there are more serious things on our platelet.

The next lizard who makes a bad pun should be subjected to corpuscle punishment.......

370 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:17am
371 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:17am

re: #366 Spider Mensch

maybe some of the anti vax group should take a walk through some of the older cemetery's and look at the ages alot of people died at in the early 1900's..our grandparents and parents know why..the anti vax crowd needs a history lesson.

Let's just hope they don't get one at our expense.

372 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:25am

re: #358 American Sabra

My point is there is no "reason" to infect each other any more.

And again... I'm not quite seeing what the more compelling "reason" was 20 years ago?

373 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:27am

re: #332 Wendya

I suspect most of the anti-vaccination parents are young enough not to have any memory of disease outbreaks. They got their shots at the doctors office and didn't think twice about it. I was born in '63 and remember getting shots in the school cafeteria. Polio was still a big deal back then. These parents reaped the benefits of the early vaccination campaigns and now they're subjecting their kids to diseases our parents fought to eradicate or reduce.

I went all through school with a girl who wore a brace on her leg due to polio and our next door neighbors (he was a watch repairman) had both had polio and were crippled from it. People were scared to death of their children contracting it.

374 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:32am

re: #359 redstateredneck Our good Southern clay has lots of iron. That's why it is reddish in color. Yummy!

375 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:36am

re: #368 SixDegrees

She's a brainless slut. I'd guess she's a Democrat, only because it has less letters than "Republican" and that makes things easier for her.

The D for Democrat is easier for her to remember, because it is her cup size.

376 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:57am

re: #351 Occasional Reader

Do you really think these Dracula puns might Stoker into a rage?

HARKer! Is that Mandy's cluebat I hear. Seems she has put some real teeth into her swing.

377 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:30:59am

re: #353 DaddyG

Crap- I get that just for being a middle aged man with allergies, reflux and slightly high cholesterol. My nightstand looks like a freaking pharmacy counter.

Vegetarianism is looking more and more sensible.

LOL great minds.

I don't know. I was a veghead for about 6 years and it was a misery. I kept getting anemic. Now I eat some red meat, mostly fish and chicken and I'm still with the veggies, brown rice, yada yada.

378 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:00am

re: #374 DaddyG

Our good Southern clay has lots of iron. That's why it is reddish in color. Yummy!

I don't think I could get past the grit.

379 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:17am

re: #367 Occasional Reader

Indeed, and most Americans are just sitting there hypnotized by their plasma televisions.

watching "The Attack of the Antibodies".

380 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:24am

Well folks, I guess I'm up to bat.

381 StillAMarine  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:25am

re: #305 MandyManners

Thank you, Mandy and others for setting me straight there about the anti-vaccination nuts such as Jenny McCarthy and Oprah not being Republicans. Actually I was thinking more of Tom Tancredo when I wrote that.
Also note the preponderance of the anti-vaccination nuts in the Oregon area, which is also a hive for moonbats.

382 Ward Cleaver  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:27am

re: #375 ilzito guacamolito

The D for Democrat is easier for her to remember, because it is her cup size.

Not to mention D for Dimbulb, which she is.

383 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:39am

re: #363 Last Mohican

Interesting ethical issues there. Jehova's Witnesses, for example, refuse to accept blood transfusions, even if they'll bleed to death without them. As a doctor, I'm required to respect those wishes, and do everything I can to help them without a transfusion, but let them die if necessary. But I have to transfuse their children against the parents' will, if necessary.

An adult can make that choice. I am glad that you are able to over ride the parents in the case of a minor.

384 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #376 Creeping Eruption

HARKer! Is that Mandy's cluebat I hear. Seems she has put some real teeth into her swing.

I don't Mina bit, really.

385 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:45am

re: #359 redstateredneck

A black friend of mine told me that when they were kids they'd sit out by a clay bank with spoons and eat clay. She had an aunt in Chicago and her mother would mail her a box of clay so she could have good ole Mississippi clay up there!

Might have some nutritional content--iron? Or is this the equivalent of kids eating Play Doh?

386 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:31:48am

re: #378 redstateredneck

I don't think I could get past the grit.

Hominy grits can you handle?

387 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:32:16am

re: #380 Spare O'Lake

Well folks, I guess I'm up to bat.

BITE ME!

388 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:32:19am

re: #377 American Sabra

LOL great minds.

I don't know. I was a veghead for about 6 years and it was a misery. I kept getting anemic. Now I eat some red meat, mostly fish and chicken and I'm still with the veggies, brown rice, yada yada.


Hmmm... you are wise. I suspect there is a happy medium between wheat grass shakes and a case of girls scout cookies for dinner.

389 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:32:21am

re: #356 buzzsawmonkey

It's true, there are more serious things on our platelet.

But the laughter is infectious!

390 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:32:33am

"You gotta get him dip-tet boosters yearly or else he'll get lockjaw and night vision."

-Dot, Raising Arizona

391 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:03am

re: #386 LGoPs

Hominy grits can you handle?

Sho 'nuff!

392 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:21am

re: #378 redstateredneck

I don't think I could get past the grit.


Having camped in the South on several Boy Scout outings and eaten Scout cooked meals, I'm sure I've ingested more than my share of gritty iron rich southern clay.

393 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:38am

re: #381 StillAMarine

Thank you, Mandy and others for setting me straight there about the anti-vaccination nuts such as Jenny McCarthy and Oprah not being Republicans. Actually I was thinking more of Tom Tancredo when I wrote that.
Also note the preponderance of the anti-vaccination nuts in the Oregon area, which is also a hive for moonbats.

Until recently I thought it was just a left-coast thing.

394 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:45am

re: #390 Mad Al-Jaffee

"You gotta get him dip-tet boosters yearly or else he'll get lockjaw and night vision."

-Dot, Raising Arizona

On my fave movie list.

395 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:56am

re: #391 redstateredneck

Sho 'nuff!

And I ain't no ways tiiiirrrreeeedddd.

396 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:33:59am

re: #372 Occasional Reader

And again... I'm not quite seeing what the more compelling "reason" was 20 years ago?

Ack! There was no reason! No good reason! This was a very bad, horrible, disgusting practice. I am in no way, shape or form saying it was a GOOD thing.

All I'm saying is that it's an OLD THING. And I don't know why it was brought up now when it's almost certainly not happening other than to caste more dispersions on gay men.

397 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:11am

re: #363 Last Mohican

Interesting ethical issues there. Jehova's Witnesses, for example, refuse to accept blood transfusions, even if they'll bleed to death without them. As a doctor, I'm required to respect those wishes, and do everything I can to help them without a transfusion, but let them die if necessary. But I have to transfuse their children against the parents' will, if necessary.

It's an issue that's long been settled. Courts intervene where the child's life is at stake because the child isn't able to make that decision on their own.

In recent case involving, I think, a 14 year old, the child was allowed to refuse medical treatment on his own after undergoing a court-supervised competency hearing; the underlying issue was religious belief. He died.

398 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:14am

re: #260 MrSilverDragon

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.


Common sense and survival instinct greater than sex drive is an element of fitness, I guess.

399 realwest  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:21am

Well this is a fascinating topic but I gotta go now - hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

400 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:23am

re: #395 SasquatchOnSteroids

And I ain't no ways tiiiirrrreeeedddd.

Miz Hill'ry, dat you?

401 jcbunga  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:27am

re: #260 MrSilverDragon

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.

Agreed, however that particular stupidity gene would fall out of the pool.

402 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:29am
403 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:38am

re: #260 MrSilverDragon

I would argue that in this situation, it's not "Mother Nature" in control. Quite the opposite from my perspective. The natural order is considered "survival of the fittest", and if someone is intentionally infecting themselves with a virus that has an extreme mortality rate, they're going completely against that natural order.

One could also argue that the desire to reproduce is also part of the natural order and thus the homosexual tendency, if its really genetic, would tend to remove itself from a population over time. Of course it might somehow be linked to a recessive gene or genes and confer some kind of benefit when not paired(aka Sickle Cell/Malaria resistance). This would tend to cause the frequency of the gene(s) responsible to stabilize or even increase over time...

404 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:47am

re: #385 SanFranciscoZionist
High in iron. If you know a pregnant woman who suffers from PICA cooking a burger in an iron skillet sometimes does the trick.

405 EtheWise  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:52am

Speaking as a teacher let me just say the anti-vaxers are kooks that inhabit the entire political spectrum

406 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:34:59am

re: #384 Occasional Reader

I don't Mina bit, really.

Say . . . your an attorney, right? I was hoping you could help me with this little real estate deal I have in the Carpathians . .

407 JHW  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:05am

re: #385 SanFranciscoZionist

Geophagy

And...The Clay Eaters

408 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:08am

re: #331 American Sabra

I would agree that it is probably not going on now. Perhaps to the credit of those who reported on it.

The original discussion had to do with the taxpayers funding bad decisions, and other people who make bad decisions such as smoking, drinking, etc.

409 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:09am

re: #390 Mad Al-Jaffee

"You gotta get him dip-tet boosters yearly or else he'll get lockjaw and night vision."

-Dot, Raising Arizona

Is it wrong that the scene from that movie that made me burst out laughing the hardest, was when the fluffy bunny rabbit hops up and sniffs the hand grenade?

410 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:12am

re: #387 AuntAcid

BITE ME!

Normally I would but you made me start coffin.

411 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:15am

re: #388 DaddyG

Hmmm... you are wise. I suspect there is a happy medium between wheat grass shakes and a case of girls scout cookies for dinner.

LOL how about wheat grass cookies! (eeewwww)

412 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #399 realwest

Well this is a fascinating topic but I gotta go now - hope you all have a great day and that I get the chance to see you all down the road!

Be sure to clot out.

413 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:36:06am

re: #342 NelsFree

Fundamentalist Muslims forbid vaccinations for anyone, because...
vaccinations did not exist in the time of Mohammed!
W.H.O. medical teams have been harrassed and some even killed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Don't they know, medieval Muslims invented vaccinations?

414 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:36:27am

re: #342 NelsFree

Fundamentalist Muslims forbid vaccinations for anyone, because...
vaccinations did not exist in the time of Mohammed!
W.H.O. medical teams have been harrassed and some even killed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

Someone needs to tell them that AK-47s, and suicide vests didn't exist back then either...

415 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:36:29am

re: #396 American Sabra

All I'm saying is that it's an OLD THING. And I don't know why it was brought up now when it's almost certainly not happening other than to caste more dispersions aspersions on gay men.

I don't know if it's an "old" thing or not; just saying, your stated reason why it made more sense (relatively speaking) in the early 90s than now seems to have it completely backward.

416 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:36:31am

re: #404 DaddyG

High in iron. If you know a pregnant woman who suffers from PICA cooking a burger in an iron skillet sometimes does the trick.


They (my black friend) also said a lot of black women ate starch when they were pregnant. Not spray starch, but the old fashioned powder kind that you mix with water. I don't know what that was all about.

417 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:36:46am

re: #407 JHW

Geophagy

And...The Clay Eaters

"When there was no crawdad to be found, we ate sand."

-Raising Arizona, again

418 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:37:13am

re: #405 EtheWise

Speaking as a teacher let me just say the anti-vaxers are kooks that inhabit the entire political spectrum

Bi-partisan kookiness.

419 UFO TOFU  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:37:30am

re: #147 redstateredneck

I also remember the whole town going to the school to get the polio vaccine on the sugar cubes. Very big deal.
Yes, I'm old.

Ouch, I remember that.

420 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:37:35am

re: #303 meeshlr

re: #393 MandyManners

In might not even be a political philosophy thing, it could be in some cases, a desparate parent thing. I think McCarthy's kid has autism. Not hard to imagine a parent with a messed up kid grasping at straws for answers. This wouldn't explain Oprah though, as far as I know.

421 Sharmuta  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:37:51am

I wonder if this goes on long enough if two different schools will have to be established- one school for vaccinated children, and one school for the children without vaccinations. Or maybe they can tell anti-vaxers they have to home school if they opt out of vaccinations? Just doesn't seem fair to the children.

422 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:38:24am

re: #409 Occasional Reader

Is it wrong that the scene from that movie that made me burst out laughing the hardest, was when the fluffy bunny rabbit hops up and sniffs the hand grenade?

Not at all, but I think the funniest line from it is, "I don't know they [his jammes] had Yodas and shit!"

423 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:38:25am

re: #403 JustABill

One could also argue that the desire to reproduce is also part of the natural order and thus the homosexual tendency, if its really genetic, would tend to remove itself from a population over time. Of course it might somehow be linked to a recessive gene or genes and confer some kind of benefit when not paired(aka Sickle Cell/Malaria resistance). This would tend to cause the frequency of the gene(s) responsible to stabilize or even increase over time...

There's a current hypothesis that homosexual genes may have survived because having non-reproducing adults around gives children from those families a survival advantage. Dunno if it's true, but interesting idea.

424 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:38:36am

re: #414 JustABill

Someone needs to tell them that AK-47s, and suicide vests didn't exist back then either...

Neither did nuclear weapons.
They'll have to stick with head chopping, but their intended victims should be armed.

425 firepilot  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:38:38am

re: #9 Idle Drifter

I've been seeing more and more comercials for so-called "Natural Cures" for many diseases and conditions including Diabetes.

Are you referring to the ads by snake oil salesman and convicted felon, Kevin Trudeau? That guy is a peace of work, and I mean that in the worst way possible.

426 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:10am

re: #334 JHW

This really, really irks me. My father had me and my brother fairly late in life, he was the youngest of 13 children, born just after the turn of 19 to 20th century. I've been looking at family history, photos of young, beautiful women, my aunts, that I never knew. All dead in early youth, from whooping cough, measles, scarlet fever. Grandmother had a lifetime of heartbreaks, most of her children dying before age 25. All that's left are photos that I had a hard time even putting a name to, they didn't get the slightest chance of a life that these fools take for granted. 6 out of the 13 children made it to age 30, sad beyond belief to me and these idiots want to return to these dark ages.

Unfortunately it seems that the memories of the horror and heartbreak in the pre-vaccination era have been lost. I hope it doesn't take a return to those days for people to wake up, but given the proclivity of people to just mindlessly consume idiotic media I'm not so sure that we won't see these things emerge again.

427 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:32am

re: #366 Spider Mensch

maybe some of the anti vax group should take a walk through some of the older cemetery's and look at the ages alot of people died at in the early 1900's..our grandparents and parents know why..the anti vax crowd needs a history lesson.

And the real history too, not the sanitized PC crap that is being taught now. Probably could use some lessons in logic and reasoning too. And while we're at it, how about gun safety by an NRA approved instructor?

428 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:34am

re: #420 Flyers1974

re: #393 MandyManners

In might not even be a political philosophy thing, it could be in some cases, a desparate parent thing. I think McCarthy's kid has autism. Not hard to imagine a parent with a messed up kid grasping at straws for answers. This wouldn't explain Oprah though, as far as I know.

Not anymore. She cured him through his diet, doncha know.

429 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:38am

re: #406 Creeping Eruption

Say . . . your an attorney, right? I was hoping you could help me with this little real estate deal I have in the Carpathians . .

I'll be happy to drop by and visit to look over the contracts, as long as I get that visit from Monica Bellucci and her two friends in my bedchamber at night.

430 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:42am

re: #419 UFO TOFU

Ouch, I remember that.

Neener, neener, neener...you're old, too!
;-)

431 gmsc  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:39:47am

OT: Yet another 0bama nominee shot down by hiding tax documents

President Obama's choice for the government's No. 2 housing job is embroiled in the largest fine in U.S. history for "blatant violations" of open records laws after the Washington State Supreme Court chastised his office for withholding documents detailing taxpayer costs for a new professional football stadium in Seattle.

The documents that Ronald Sims' office was found to have kept from the public when he served as King County executive included information about cheaper alternatives to the $430 million Seattle Seahawks stadium, which was built in 2002, according to a Washington Times review of the court records.

432 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:40:34am

re: #342 NelsFree

Fundamentalist Muslims forbid vaccinations for anyone, because...
vaccinations did not exist in the time of Mohammed!
W.H.O. medical teams have been harrassed and some even killed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

This must be a very recent development, if true. Smallpox was eradicated worldwide through a massive, coordinated vaccination campaign. A true pinnacle of human achievement. I'm not aware of any Muslim resistance to the campaign while it was being conducted.

Of course, at that time (the campaign ended in 1980) there were still people around whose friends and relatives had died from the disease, or who bore the waffle-face scars it disfigures it's survivors with; you didn't have to look real hard to find evidence that this was something that needed getting rid of in the worst way.

433 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:40:48am

re: #391 redstateredneck

Sho 'nuff!

Indeed.

434 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:40:51am

re: #428 ilzito guacamolito

Not anymore. She cured him through his diet, doncha know.

If I tell her I'm autistic, do you think she'll "feed" me so I can be cured?

435 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:41:10am

re: #420 Flyers1974

re: #393 MandyManners

In might not even be a political philosophy thing, it could be in some cases, a desparate parent thing. I think McCarthy's kid has autism. Not hard to imagine a parent with a messed up kid grasping at straws for answers. This wouldn't explain Oprah though, as far as I know.

They can be as desperate as they want but they have no right to endanger the rest of us.

436 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:41:33am

re: #402 buzzsawmonkey

I watched two of my best friends die in the hospital from AIDS.

One fought off pneumonia three times, before the current drugs were available to treat such things, but succumbed anyway.

The other was living that "100% normal life" you were babbling about upthread. He went into the hospital for a routine treatment--his "100% normal life" didn't forestall that necessity--caught an opportunistic infection, and withered away over the course of 3 months.

Anybody who wilfully infects himself with AIDS--then or now--is a complete and utter moron.

Did either of your friends die, say... within the last 5-10 years? I don't know exactly when the cocktail came out but I'm fairly sure it was before 2000.

Modern medicine, that same wonderful medicine that protects our kids from harmful diseases has allowed people to live HIV positive, healthy and happy lives. So why in the world would anyone want to infect themselves? Does anyone around here even get what I'm saying?

And besides, AIDS has been declining amongst gays for probably 15 years. Straight women are the current group. Particularly straight Black women.

437 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:41:50am

re: #421 Sharmuta

I wonder if this goes on long enough if two different schools will have to be established- one school for vaccinated children, and one school for the children without vaccinations. Or maybe they can tell anti-vaxers they have to home school if they opt out of vaccinations? Just doesn't seem fair to the children.

What about parks? Malls? Chuck E. Cheese?

438 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:41:53am

BTW, there was a polio epidemic when I was born. I think the vaccine came out either just around that time or a year or so later, and I remember meeting people who had been largely paralyzed.
I remember the injections and later, the Sabin oral vaccine.

Sometimes, I think we need interstellar travel now, so we can go and leave the luddites here; come back later when they've died off.
(Not serious.)

439 gmsc  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:42:00am

re: #342 NelsFree

Fundamentalist Muslims forbid vaccinations for anyone, because...
vaccinations did not exist in the time of Mohammed!
W.H.O. medical teams have been harrassed and some even killed in Pakistan and Afghanistan.

So, Fundamentalist Muslims can't use a telephone, watch TV, listen to a radio, and use a video camera?

440 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:42:29am

Obama Releases Details of $3.4 Trillion Budget Plan


The Obama administration today unveiled program details of a $3.4 trillion federal budget for the fiscal year beginning in October, a proposal that includes substantial increases for a number of domestic priorities as well as a plan to trim or eliminate 121 programs at a savings of $17 billion.

House budget director Peter Orszag said, "$17 billion a year is not chump change by anyone's accounting."

Let's do the math, shall we? $17 billion out of a total budget of $3.4 trillion works out to 0.5%

Wow! Obama the Knife is "slashing" a whopping one half of one percent of the total budget. Way to hold the line, Barry!

441 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:42:52am

re: #434 Mad Al-Jaffee

If I tell her I'm autistic, do you think she'll "feed" me so I can be cured?

You thrive on a diet of silicone?

442 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:42:57am

re: #429 Occasional Reader

I'll be happy to drop by and visit to look over the contracts, as long as I get that visit from Monica Bellucci and her two friends in my bedchamber at night.

Of course my friend. You'll love them. Their wit is very . . .sharp.

443 KingKenrod  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:43:01am

A report was widely distributed yesterday showing that autistic children have a slightly larger amygdala.

[Link: www.google.com...]

They think the growth starts in the second half of the first year of life, which would be before most kids get the MMR vaccine.

444 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:43:29am

re: #436 American Sabra

Did either of your friends die, say... within the last 5-10 years? I don't know exactly when the cocktail came out but I'm fairly sure it was before 2000.

Modern medicine, that same wonderful medicine that protects our kids from harmful diseases has allowed people to live HIV positive, healthy and happy lives. So why in the world would anyone want to infect themselves? Does anyone around here even get what I'm saying?

And besides, AIDS has been declining amongst gays for probably 15 years. Straight women are the current group. Particularly straight Black women.

I wonder if that has anything to do with some African-American men and the down-low.

445 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:43:45am
446 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:43:49am

re: #415 Occasional Reader

I don't know if it's an "old" thing or not; just saying, your stated reason why it made more sense (relatively speaking) in the early 90s than now seems to have it completely backward.

If AIDS or HIV is not a death sentence anymore (it is not), why get it?

447 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:43:52am

re: #432 SixDegrees

This must be a very recent development, if true. Smallpox was eradicated worldwide through a massive, coordinated vaccination campaign. A true pinnacle of human achievement. I'm not aware of any Muslim resistance to the campaign while it was being conducted.

Of course, at that time (the campaign ended in 1980) there were still people around whose friends and relatives had died from the disease, or who bore the waffle-face scars it disfigures it's survivors with; you didn't have to look real hard to find evidence that this was something that needed getting rid of in the worst way.

Increasing resistance to anything seen as modern or Western. Wasn't always like that. A lot of what gets described as 'traditional' Muslim life or ideas is newfangled extremism.

449 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #440 Kenneth

Obama Releases Details of $3.4 Trillion Budget Plan


Let's do the math, shall we? $17 billion out of a total budget of $3.4 trillion works out to 0.5%

Wow! Obama the Knife is "slashing" a whopping one half of one percent of the total budget. Way to hold the line, Barry!

"Honey, you'll be proud of me... I just bought a brand-new Ferrari, and put it on our credit card, but I went with the regular walnut shifter knob, instead of the leather-wrapped titanium one."

Wouldn't fly in my home, I know that much.

450 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:45:06am

re: #443 KingKenrod

A report was widely distributed yesterday showing that autistic children have a slightly larger amygdala.

[Link: www.google.com...]

They think the growth starts in the second half of the first year of life, which would be before most kids get the MMR vaccine.

My my. If it's true prepare for it to be denounced.

451 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:45:20am

re: #439 gmsc

So, Fundamentalist Muslims can't use a telephone, watch TV, listen to a radio, and use a video camera?

When those devices were first introduced to Arabia, the authorities had an imam recite the Koran over them. That "purified" it and made it OK. True story.

452 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:45:56am

re: #441 ilzito guacamolito

You thrive on a diet of silicone?

Silicone causes autism. At least, there's as much evidence supporting that conclusion as there is supporting the idea that vaccines are responsible.

God knows what long-term overexposure to peroxide does.

453 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:09am
454 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:14am

These 18 hour days are killing me. Only 3 weeks left.

Good night Lizards.

455 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:22am

re: #452 SixDegrees

Silicone causes autism. At least, there's as much evidence supporting that conclusion as there is supporting the idea that vaccines are responsible.

God knows what long-term overexposure to peroxide does.

We already know. It makes you stupid.

456 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:33am

re: #446 American Sabra

If AIDS or HIV is not a death sentence anymore (it is not), why get it?

Er... huh? I guess I was going on the logic that most people, most of the time, are tyring to avoid death.

But if someone wants to kill themselves by intentionally getting AIDS today, they're perfectly capable of doing so. Just refuse medication.

457 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:48am

re: #454 Erik The Red

These 18 hour days are killing me. Only 3 weeks left.

Good night Lizards.

Nighty-night!

458 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:54am

re: #435 MandyManners

Believe me, I'm not condoning it at all. Just a possible explanation on their motivations.

459 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:46:56am

re: #429 Occasional Reader

I thought you were referring to Monica Bellucci and her two best friends...

460 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:47:00am

re: #451 Kenneth

When those devices were first introduced to Arabia, the authorities had an imam recite the Koran over them. That "purified" it and made it OK. True story.

I second that.

461 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:47:21am

re: #452 SixDegrees

Silicone causes autism. At least, there's as much evidence supporting that conclusion as there is supporting the idea that vaccines are responsible.

God knows what long-term overexposure to peroxide does.

Peroxide must cause stupidity. There is a great deal of correlation between stupid people and those who use peroxide.
And I read this in a journal, the Journal of Irreproducible Results (or was it Annals of Improbable Research)

462 gmsc  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:47:22am

re: #451 Kenneth

When those devices were first introduced to Arabia, the authorities had an imam recite the Koran over them. That "purified" it and made it OK. True story.

So, it's because the Imam's refuse to purify vaccinations that they can't do it?

463 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:47:32am

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a current hypothesis that homosexual genes may have survived because having non-reproducing adults around gives children from those families a survival advantage. Dunno if it's true, but interesting idea.

So your saying that having a gay uncle helps his neices/nephews to survive because he's spending more time/resources with his extended family as opposed to those he would spend on his own family? Interesting Idea...

464 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:47:58am

re: #459 Kenneth

I thought you were referring to Monica Bellucci and her two best friends...

Or, as Joe Bob Briggs would say, Monica Bellucci and her two huge talents.

465 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:48:05am

re: #454 Erik The Red

These 18 hour days are killing me. Only 3 weeks left.

Good night Lizards.

Around these parts, we have 24 hour days.

What planet are you on, anyway?

/

466 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:48:35am

re: #462 gmsc

That particular incident with the Taliban & vaccinations is even more extreme. It happens in other areas too, form time to time.

467 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:48:51am

re: #459 Kenneth

I thought you were referring to Monica Bellucci and her two best friends...

She missed a spot with the razor.

468 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:48:57am

re: #459 Kenneth

I thought you were referring to Monica Bellucci and her two best friends...

Her armpits?

/

/actually, I rather like her armpits

469 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:49:03am

re: #465 Occasional Reader

Around these parts, we have 24 hour days.

What planet are you on, anyway?

/

He pulled that out of his butt. Must be on Uranus.
/ :)

470 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:49:40am

re: #466 Kenneth

That particular incident with the Taliban & vaccinations is even more extreme. It happens in other areas too, form time to time.

Aren't pigs used in vaccines' preparation?

471 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:49:45am

re: #465 Occasional Reader

Around these parts, we have 24 hour days.

What planet are you on, anyway?

/

LOL! Actually, when we were underway on the boat, we did work 18 hour days. Underway, we stood 6 hour watches with 12 hours off. It was a bear to get back onto a 24 day when we returned to port.

472 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:49:49am

re: #468 Occasional Reader

Her armpits?

/

/actually, I rather like her armpits

I was wondering why my armpits don't look that good.

473 nyc redneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:50:07am

it is really frightening how modern civilized people are running backwards, and picking up momentum to destroy so much that has made the very survival of
humanity possible.
how is it that brilliant scientists who have made incredible sound discoveries are now ignored and treated as irrelevant, in favor of morons and idiots w/ no
education, just feelings and incoherent thoughts.
these fools are given a platform because it is pc to do so. what b.s.
we have transformed our once great culture of learning into a voodoo mentality.
people who don't vaccinate their children are putting them in great danger of
infection and complications. perhaps death.
all because they have a right to their opinion.
their children will suffer.

474 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:51:25am

re: #423 SanFranciscoZionist

There's a current hypothesis that homosexual genes may have survived because having non-reproducing adults around gives children from those families a survival advantage. Dunno if it's true, but interesting idea.

That might be tied to the studies that show that a male child has a higher probability of being gay if he has older brothers.

/It has nothing to do with people thinking that a male child is gay because his older sisters liked to put make-up on him and make him wear dresses.

475 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:51:28am

re: #446 American Sabra

If AIDS or HIV is not a death sentence anymore (it is not), why get it?

Um, what? Is there supposed to be logic in the reverse? If anything, it makes more sense to get it now that it isn't lethal. Show solidarity without a death sentence.
'Course it's stupid either way and I hope no one is really that despising of their own life.

476 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:51:40am

re: #9 Idle Drifter

/Oh, goody! I am going to sue my Endocrinologist for malpractice, for not telling me and NY Grampa, also, that there is a 'cure'.

Now I can stop taking insulin 3x/day!

All of a sudden, I feel like doing the Snoopy Dance.

In reality? Any of these snake oil salesmen should be brought up on charges.

Oh, oh...big thunder boomers...I may close down.

477 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:51:43am

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

478 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:52:21am

Updates

479 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:52:43am
480 brookly red  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:00am

re: #466 Kenneth

/How odd, Mohammad didn't have gun powder in his time either...

481 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:20am

re: #471 subsailor68

Underway, we stood 6 hour watches with 12 hours off.

Interesting... I'd have thought that would screw with everyone's circadian rhythm. Any idea why the Navy chose that schedule?

482 StillAMarine  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:23am

I have two children with one degree or another of Asperger's Syndrome, a form of "high functioning" autism. But I firmly believe my wife and I have absolutely no right to impose on other children, even if we bought into this stupid anti-vaccination fad.

483 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:28am

Do these people also refuse to take antibiotics, statins, and other common Rx / OTC meds (many of which can cause mild to severe side effects) or are they just obsessed with vaccines?

484 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:35am

re: #470 MandyManners

Aren't pigs used in vaccines' preparation?

Depends on the vaccine. I'm not certain if swine are used at all.

Insulin used to be extracted from pig pancreases. And cows, so there wasn't any issue. Now, it's produced by engineered bacteria.

485 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:39am

Finally, some good news !

486 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:44am

re: #453 Iron Fist

If it is a death sentence, why get it? As I said up-thread, it's another way to commit suicide.

Let me try.

There was a bleak and nasty period of time when AIDS was so widespread in the gay community, and so universally fatal, that some gay men came to see being infected as ineveitable. Some of these allowed themselves to be infected, (usually through ordinary unsafe sex, not ritualized parties), since staying negative seemed both impossible in the long run, and possibly not to be desired, if everyone in your immediate community was positive. It was a death sentence, but not one you could avoid if you intended to live as a gay man. (I'm not justifying the behavior, but the times were crazy, and some people had wacked out ideas to go with them.)

Times have changed, and the apocalyptic mentality that led to that kind of unsafe behavior is essentially gone. Thank God.

487 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:44am
488 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:53:49am

re: #441 ilzito guacamolito

You thrive on a diet of silicone?

Mad Al-Jaffee's a Horta?

489 KansasMom  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:54:16am

re: #477 MandyManners

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

I have to wonder why, if its so important, its only being pushed on girls. Boys may not be at risk of cervical cancer, but unless they are vaccinated there won't be herd immunity.

490 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:54:40am

re: #473 nyc redneck

On the other hand, when you think of how primitive the world was not that long ago, i.e., europe during the 1500's you might say it is a miracle that we are as civilized as we are today. Grown adults believed in giants, goblins, spirits, etc... . No sense of time, no need to have a sense of time. From what I've read, the average person wouldn't have reason or means to know what century it was.

491 gmsc  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:54:47am

Somebody innoculate me against the cuteness of this video:

492 aggieann  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:55:10am

re: #296 Erik The Red

What my kids rights not to get infected? The strain on a health care system already stretched. These parents are selfish and self absorbed.

I have the same opinion about guns on campus. If Big Brother prevents me from being able to defend myself, then Big Brother better made damn sure that I am always and 100% safe.

493 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:55:14am

re: #467 MandyManners

re: #468 Occasional Reader

you 2 are perverts.

494 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:55:15am

re: #488 CyanSnowHawk

Mad Al-Jaffee's a Horta?

I'm a doctor, not a bricklayer, dammit!
/channeling Dr. McCoy

495 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:55:52am

re: #463 JustABill

So your saying that having a gay uncle helps his neices/nephews to survive because he's spending more time/resources with his extended family as opposed to those he would spend on his own family? Interesting Idea...


Doesn't make much sense. Unless it was much much greater an aide to survival having one extra person around, it would be more advantageous to simply increase the numbers trying to survive.

496 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:24am
497 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:40am

Why should I expose MY child to the risks of harmful side-effects of vaccination, especially if EVERYONE ELSE vaccinates THEIR children and thereby virtually eliminates the riske to MY child of actually catching the disease?
/////

498 Sean  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:40am

Let's speculate:
Next Fall we get a vaccine program for the anticipated H1N1 flu virus
-and-
Obama promotes it (A good thing).

Will Oprah's head explode?

499 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:42am

re: #493 Kenneth

re: #468 Occasional Reader

you 2 are perverts.

Your point being?

500 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:43am

It's raining here in NY again. What a dreary season. If anyone is going to the games tonight, Good Luck?

501 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:56:55am

re: #477 MandyManners

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

Not mandatory...yet.

502 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:03am

re: #489 KansasMom

I have to wonder why, if its so important, its only being pushed on girls. Boys may not be at risk of cervical cancer, but unless they are vaccinated there won't be herd immunity.

I have no idea.

503 aggieann  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:07am

re: #417 Mad Al-Jaffee

"When there was no crawdad to be found, we ate sand."

-Raising Arizona, again

Just about every line of that movie is quotable!

504 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:09am

re: #485 Desert Dog

Finally, some good news !

Bad news for the guy whose job it was to sit there looking for breast-baring riders.

505 NonNativeTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:13am

A lot of this is a product of our narcissistic society. What about
my feelings, my opinions, my rights. Instead of thinking, what are the
consequences of my actions on the society in which I live. A good
question that works for routine vaccinations as well as pirating music off of the Internet to asks oneself is . "what is the effect on society if everyone does as I do". Is it better or worse off?

506 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:16am

re: #481 Occasional Reader

Interesting... I'd have thought that would screw with everyone's circadian rhythm. Any idea why the Navy chose that schedule?

Oh it definitely messed with the rhythm! I think (trying to remember back that far) that the idea was that 6 hours was considered about as long as concentration was at acceptable levels, but it may have been something else. I do remember standing port and starboard watches (usually 4 hours on and 4 hours off), and those were a bitch.

507 AuntAcid  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:28am

re: #473 nyc redneck

This is what wiped out the Vulcans.

508 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:31am

re: #452 SixDegrees

Silicone causes autism. At least, there's as much evidence supporting that conclusion as there is supporting the idea that vaccines are responsible.

God knows what long-term overexposure to peroxide does.


I've always felt sympathetic to her child, but in the back of my mind I always wondered about the lifestyle she led...she was a playmate, everything goes at those playboy mansion parties..I'm sure she just didn't say "NO" when the lazy susan full of drugs stopped spinning in front of her. of course there is no proof..but it's something you think of..if in her mindthe autism can be blamed to the vaccines, could it not be also blamed on her partying back in the day? why not?

509 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:32am

re: #463 JustABill

So your saying that having a gay uncle helps his neices/nephews to survive because he's spending more time/resources with his extended family as opposed to those he would spend on his own family? Interesting Idea...

Yeah, that's the idea. A gay aunt or uncle hunts, gathers, pulls baby back from fire, takes in kids when mom or dad is eaten by a saber-tooth, and so on. The kids eat better, get more individual attention/education, have a greater chance of survival.

510 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:43am

re: #493 Kenneth

re: #468 Occasional Reader

you 2 are perverts.

Works for me.

511 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:57:44am

re: #477 MandyManners

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

There is a huge paranoid reaction to that vaccine going around. I watched a video somebody linked to from a Christian group opposed to Guardasil. It was full of lies, distortions, fear mongering and irrational reasoning.

512 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:03am

re: #477 MandyManners

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

Now that's a good thing. HPV can trigger cervical cancer.

513 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:10am

re: #474 CyanSnowHawk

That might be tied to the studies that show that a male child has a higher probability of being gay if he has older brothers.

/It has nothing to do with people thinking that a male child is gay because his older sisters liked to put make-up on him and make him wear dresses.

I would suspect that effect is tied to the "nurture" side of the arguement. If genes alone determined homosexual behavior, one wouldn't expect birth order to matter. As with just about any trait, I suspect homosexuality is some combination of nature and nuture...

514 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:34am

re: #501 ilzito guacamolito

Not mandatory...yet.

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

515 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:49am

re: #489 KansasMom

I have to wonder why, if its so important, its only being pushed on girls. Boys may not be at risk of cervical cancer, but unless they are vaccinated there won't be herd immunity.

The vaccine is very expensive and the ROI in males is not that great.

516 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:51am

You ever just read something so mind numbingly insane you wonder if it has to be a joke?

It’s time the West emerge from the closet and legalize Polygamy

Although polygamy was supposedly outlawed by the Vatican ( the Pope’s headquarter in Rome) hundreds of years ago, the practice is still far from dead in the North America and the West, in general. The only difference today though is - they call it : mistress.

The majority of married men in America, Canada and Europe are known to cheat on their wives – as part of social norm. The difference between a mistress and a second wife is : the latter is honoured, recognized and respected in the Muslim community while a mistress is kept in the dark, unacknowledged and reduced to just a piece of meat. A mistress is merely there to serve the satisfaction of the Man’s lust and ego.

Yet the Western media and Politicians have the audacity to judge the Muslims about the practice of the Polygamy. The religion of Islam is repeatedly bad-mouthed in order to systematically divert the American, Canadian and European females attention away from the humiliation and the emotional and psychological bruises they endure from cheating and other forms of sexual exploitation : pornography, nude-dances and breast implantes, etc.

517 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:55am

re: #490 Flyers1974

No sense of time, no need to have a sense of time.

There's a pretty interesting essay by the flaming lefty historian E.P. Thompson titled "Time, Work Discipline, and Industrial Capitalism", if you can ever get your hands on it. He goes into the extremely relaxed notion of time that predated the Industrial Revolution. The earliest clocks did not have minute hands, for instance, even after such a thing became quite technically feasible.

518 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:58:59am

re: #504 redstateredneck

Bad news for the guy whose job it was to sit there looking for breast-baring riders.

They probably aren't saying, but they most likely have software that does it now.

519 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:59:32am

re: #496 buzzsawmonkey

That's why I said, no need to have a sense of time. And the idea of life changing down the road at some particular time was inconceivable.

520 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:59:37am

re: #514 MandyManners

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

Well until they get married.

521 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:59:38am

re: #499 Occasional Reader

Your point being?

Just one of the things I like about you two, that's all.

522 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 11:59:44am

re: #491 gmsc

That was funny that an ad for "Vaccines for Babies" popped up on that video.

523 Yashmak  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:11pm

I fear that this anti-vaccination nonsense will become an issue for me in the near future. My girlfriend (soon to be fiancee) and I are expecting our first child in October, and she (and her mother) both buy into the notion that vaccines are behind the increased incidence of autism.

I'm collecting the names of books and sources to try and dispell it, but she finds it easier to dismiss the work of medical scientists than of the celebrities who know nothing about medical science.

So far, I've got "Autism's False Prophets" on the list, but would appreciate any other reading material I can find for her and her mother. I am not pleased about the prospect of my child-to-be not being properly vaccinated.

524 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:12pm

re: #504 redstateredneck

Bad news for the guy whose job it was to sit there looking for breast-baring riders.

One of my customers is in the color separation business. They get catalogs and magazines ready for print. There was this one guy that worked on a lingerie catalog and his only job was to cover up nipples and pubic hair. So, all day long, he looked a pictures of pretty women in lingerie...searching for that.

525 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:16pm

re: #511 Kenneth

There is a huge paranoid reaction to that vaccine going around. I watched a video somebody linked to from a Christian group opposed to Guardasil. It was full of lies, distortions, fear mongering and irrational reasoning.

My concern is that it presumes that EVERY girl is having sex.

526 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:34pm

re: #514 MandyManners

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

Unprotected sex.

527 JustABill  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:41pm

re: #497 Spare O'Lake

Why should I expose MY child to the risks of harmful side-effects of vaccination, especially if EVERYONE ELSE vaccinates THEIR children and thereby virtually eliminates the riske to MY child of actually catching the disease?
/////

Actually, you just hit the nail on the head. Because I suspect you are a moral person, you made that statement in jest. However, thats exactly the kind of thinking behind the anti-vax movement.

528 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:43pm

re: #508 Spider Mensch

I've always felt sympathetic to her child, but in the back of my mind I always wondered about the lifestyle she led...she was a playmate, everything goes at those playboy mansion parties..I'm sure she just didn't say "NO" when the lazy susan full of drugs stopped spinning in front of her. of course there is no proof..but it's something you think of..if in her mindthe autism can be blamed to the vaccines, could it not be also blamed on her partying back in the day? why not?

Because then it would be her fault. And every ounce of her whining, bleating accusations against vaccines are geared toward avoiding that unpleasant possibility.

529 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:47pm

re: #514 MandyManners

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

Well, eventually, the vast majority of them will. Granted, for most of them, it'll be after age 18.

530 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #511 Kenneth

There is a huge paranoid reaction to that vaccine going around. I watched a video somebody linked to from a Christian group opposed to Guardasil. It was full of lies, distortions, fear mongering and irrational reasoning.

My 18 year old got it. I felt like it was a prudent measure.

531 Neutral President  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:00:50pm

re: #421 Sharmuta

I wonder if this goes on long enough if two different schools will have to be established- one school for vaccinated children, and one school for the children without vaccinations. Or maybe they can tell anti-vaxers they have to home school if they opt out of vaccinations? Just doesn't seem fair to the children.

We shouldn't be letting it get that far. The message that this is stupid, debunked, luddite nonsense needs to be repeated ad nauseam, especially to local politicians.

532 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:01:06pm

re: #524 Desert Dog

One of my customers is in the color separation business. They get catalogs and magazines ready for print. There was this one guy that worked on a lingerie catalog and his only job was to cover up nipples and pubic hair. So, all day long, he looked a pictures of pretty women in lingerie...searching for that.

And when was he institutionalized?

533 SFGoth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:01:15pm

I thought that after the invention of modern means of recording information that scientific progress was irreversible. It may be, but idiocy overrides progress. I don't mind a little time regression to some extent, but I'd prefer to go back to the 1750-1780 or 1850-1870 time periods rather than the Dark Ages (for personal reasons some of you ought to recognize). The list of Republicans I can support is rapidly approaching an irrational number.

534 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:00pm

re: #525 MandyManners

My concern is that it presumes that EVERY girl is having sex.

The vaccine has to be given to girls who have not had sex yet. It cannot be given to a girl (or woman for that matter) who has had sex.

535 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:02pm

re: #532 Nevergiveup

And when was he institutionalized?

Last I saw him (a week few weeks ago), he was smiling as usual.

536 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:03pm

re: #530 redstateredneck

My 18 year old got it. I felt like it was a prudent measure.

I am pretty sure my wife had both our daughters get it.

537 mike(in)savage  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:07pm

re: #121 Desert Dog

I'll get one if Amanda is giving them out

I'd like to see Amanda challenge Jenny to a debate on the subject.

In a kiddie pool filled with jello pudding.

/sorry

538 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:36pm

re: #534 Honorary Yooper

The vaccine has to be given to girls who have not had sex yet. It cannot be given to a girl (or woman for that matter) who has had sex.

I assume what you meant was that it has to be given to a girl who hasn't contracted HPV yet.

539 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:42pm

re: #533 SFGoth

The list of Republicans I can support is rapidly approaching an irrational number.

I keep hearing the Republicans I do like are unelectable anyways.

540 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:45pm

re: #514 MandyManners

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

No, it presumes that every girl might have sex. Most will, at whatever age. Odds are against them having only one partner, whose only partner they are.

541 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:02:57pm

re: #537 mike(in)savage

I'd like to see Amanda challenge Jenny to a debate on the subject.

In a kiddie pool filled with jello pudding.

/sorry

three rounds, no saved by the bell, only the referee can stop?

542 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:03:17pm

re: #509 SanFranciscoZionist

Yeah, that's the idea. A gay aunt or uncle hunts, gathers, pulls baby back from fire, takes in kids when mom or dad is eaten by a saber-tooth, and so on. The kids eat better, get more individual attention/education, have a greater chance of survival.

If that were so, wouldn't we have found cave paintings of Big Gay Uncle Thag?

543 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:03:58pm

I got it.

544 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:04:10pm

re: #540 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it presumes that every girl might have sex. Most will, at whatever age. Odds are against them having only one partner, whose only partner they are.

Even with only one partner for her, there is no guarantee that she will be his only partner.

545 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:04:19pm

re: #540 SanFranciscoZionist

No, it presumes that every girl might have sex. Most will, at whatever age. Odds are against them having only one partner, whose only partner they are.

Cervical cancer can be stopped with this vaccine. Most people do not even know they have this virus and may carry it around for years. I have three sons, but if I had a daughter, I would want her to get this vaccine.

546 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:04:32pm

re: #534 Honorary Yooper

The vaccine has to be given to girls who have not had sex yet. It cannot be given to a girl (or woman for that matter) who has had sex.

Right. My younger daughter got it. Too late for her older sister.

547 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:06pm

re: #517 Occasional Reader

Thanks, I'll try to fiind it. The book I was discussing is "A world lit only by fire" by William Manchester. Don't know who he is, but he describes life during the dark ages. After reading it, easy to understand the term "Dark Ages."

548 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:06pm

re: #523 Yashmak

I fear that this anti-vaccination nonsense will become an issue for me in the near future. My girlfriend (soon to be fiancee) and I are expecting our first child in October, and she (and her mother) both buy into the notion that vaccines are behind the increased incidence of autism.

I'm collecting the names of books and sources to try and dispell it, but she finds it easier to dismiss the work of medical scientists than of the celebrities who know nothing about medical science.

So far, I've got "Autism's False Prophets" on the list, but would appreciate any other reading material I can find for her and her mother. I am not pleased about the prospect of my child-to-be not being properly vaccinated.

Go to Times Online and search 'Andrew Wakefield' or 'MMR' and you'll be able to read stories that the paper has run.

549 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:07pm

re: #542 Occasional Reader

If that were so, wouldn't we have found cave paintings of Big Gay Uncle Thag?

ROTF! "As you can see from this cave painting, the primary weapon of the day was the spear."

"Um, professor?"

"Yes?"

"I don't think that's a spear."

550 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:28pm

re: #538 Last Mohican

I assume what you meant was that it has to be given to a girl who hasn't contracted HPV yet.

No, they recommend it for girls starting at age 13 who are not sexually active.

551 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:35pm

re: #527 JustABill

Actually, you just hit the nail on the head. Because I suspect you are a moral person, you made that statement in jest. However, thats exactly the kind of thinking behind the anti-vax movement.

It is of course a self-limiting movement, in a Darwinian kind of way.
Too bad for the kids, though, and for the rest of us who must subsidize the inevitable societal costs of the idiocy.

552 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:39pm

re: #537 mike(in)savage

I'd like to see Amanda challenge Jenny to a debate on the subject.

In a kiddie pool filled with jello pudding.

/sorry

After seeing that video promoting vaccination, Amanda Peet went up a couple more notches on the "Smokin' Hot" meter. It makes me want to go get my own vaccination records checked, just in case I can still get a few more.

553 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:54pm

re: #470 MandyManners

Aren't pigs used in vaccines' preparation?

When insulin was made from cows and then pigs, Orthodox Jews took it, as in Judaism, saving a life comes first. I cannot fast on Yom Kippur because I am on insulin(we are kosher, but now insulins are made with recombinant DNA)....and the levels that the cult of islam go to? Barbaric. and also, I cannot imagine that any valid religion would keep their members from doing whatever has to be done to save lives.

I do not recall any vaccines containing matter from swine, but the swine are given inoculations, IIRC.

554 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:05:56pm

re: #521 Kenneth

Just one of the things I like about you two, that's all.

Hey, lots of guys like womens' bare armpits... Just leaf through an SI Swimsuit Issue, and notice how many of the models apparently had a sudden need to hold their hair up with both hands (or something like that) just before the pic was taken.

555 Athos  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:06:17pm

If the GOP somehow thinks that returning to its roots of basic conservatism includes embracing creationism / intelligent design as 'science' suitable for school coursework, embracing religious fundamentalism, and embracing anti vaccination efforts just to name a few of what seem to be the 'core values', it's going to find itself in not only in the wilderness, but getting more and more intertwined with the far right fringe.

These aren't 'core conservative' values and do not constitute a basis for a cogent vision and choice for the American people when compared to that offered by the Democrat Party.

556 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:06:19pm

re: #514 MandyManners

It presumes that EVERY girl will have sex.

No, bu the silly part of the argument from the anti-Guardasil militants is that they assume that getting the vaccination means your teen MUST have sex. That's the fear mongering bit they're peddling. Busy bodies with a prurient morality.

Reasonable parents should assume there is a greater than non-zero chance their daughters will have sex. Even if a girl promises never to have sex until she is married... well guess what, she has to assume her future husband never had sex either. That's a pretty big assumption to risk getting cervical cancer with.

557 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:06:22pm

re: #545 Desert Dog

Cervical cancer can be stopped with this vaccine. Most people do not even know they have this virus and may carry it around for years. I have three sons, but if I had a daughter, I would want her to get this vaccine.

Another interesting ethical question: should boys be encouraged to have the vaccine too, even though they can't get cervical cancer, because they're usually the ones who give HPV to the girls?

558 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:06:49pm

I was thinking about it differently and you're right, quite incorrectly.

But I'm still curious because when I first heard about this, it was a very long time ago, way before there was such adequate treatment, but I guess you're right. It does make more sense if you can actually survive the disease.

559 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:06:51pm

re: #547 Flyers1974

Thanks, I'll try to fiind it. The book I was discussing is "A world lit only by fire" by William Manchester. Don't know who he is, but he describes life during the dark ages. After reading it, easy to understand the term "Dark Ages."

Ah, thanks for reminding me, I had been meaning to read that.

560 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:10pm

re: #537 mike(in)savage

I'd like to see Amanda challenge Jenny to a debate on the subject.

In a kiddie pool filled with jello pudding.

/sorry

YOU'RE MY BOY, BLUE!

561 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:13pm

re: #554 Occasional Reader

Hey, lots of guys like womens' bare armpits... Just leaf through an SI Swimsuit Issue, and notice how many of the models apparently had a sudden need to hold their hair up with both hands (or something like that) just before the pic was taken.


OK guys, OR's trying to start an arm pit thread... who's in?

562 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:14pm

re: #542 Occasional Reader

If that were so, wouldn't we have found cave paintings of Big Gay Uncle Thag?

How would Big Gay Uncle Thag look any different from Big Straight Uncle Thag? More fabulous loincloth?

563 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:22pm

re: #554 Occasional Reader

Hey, lots of guys like womens' bare armpits... Just leaf through an SI Swimsuit Issue, and notice how many of the models apparently had a sudden need to hold their hair up with both hands (or something like that) just before the pic was taken.

I'm vaguely remembering some movie where this guy kept licking Patricia Arquette's armpits.

564 Spider Mensch  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:24pm

re: #523 Yashmak

I fear that this anti-vaccination nonsense will become an issue for me in the near future. My girlfriend (soon to be fiancee) and I are expecting our first child in October, and she (and her mother) both buy into the notion that vaccines are behind the increased incidence of autism.

I'm collecting the names of books and sources to try and dispell it, but she finds it easier to dismiss the work of medical scientists than of the celebrities who know nothing about medical science.

So far, I've got "Autism's False Prophets" on the list, but would appreciate any other reading material I can find for her and her mother. I am not pleased about the prospect of my child-to-be not being properly vaccinated.


it's not too early to start looking for a good pediatrician in your area. Find one and talk to him or her. They'll point you in the right direction. you and the mom should both talk to the pediatrician. and not just one, interview them as you would a job applicant. I wish people would put in the effort to find a good pediatrician as they do when buying a new car.
if you don't know where to start, talk to friends and co workers who have children..and ask whom they take their children to.

565 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:35pm

re: #489 KansasMom

I have to wonder why, if its so important, its only being pushed on girls. Boys may not be at risk of cervical cancer, but unless they are vaccinated there won't be herd immunity.

The protection it gives against cervical cancer due to certain strains of HPV is what justifies its use and the big push for it. There is a significant reduction in risk for the girls that get the vaccine. Use in males is being studied and is known to be somewhat effective, but the FDA has not yet approved the vaccine to be marketed for that.

566 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:07:43pm

re: #557 Last Mohican

Another interesting ethical question: should boys be encouraged to have the vaccine too, even though they can't get cervical cancer, because they're usually the ones who give HPV to the girls?

good question. Boys (and Men) are the carriers I believe.....I have not heard anything about offering it to boys? Is this a gender specific vaccine? Is there such a thing?

567 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:00pm

I've seen reports of girls dying from it.

Schlussel blogs about it a lot.

Don't know if it's part of some over all anti-vac ideology or not.

568 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:01pm

re: #561 Kenneth

OK guys, OR's trying to start an arm pit thread... who's in?

I vote we stick with this one.

569 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:03pm

Still here.:) I am a very lucky father. Both of my girls are going to be Nuns.

570 brent  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:04pm

probably way late to the party, but I watched a news blast on Aussie TV... if you have not seen a 2 month old with whooping cough, or listened to the mother of a 2 week old that just died of whooping cough - well, you walk away thinking "thank g*d that's not me" and "f*ck those morons that talk about this like it's a sane alternative"...

also, look at measles a little harder - it's shocking how many people die from that annually (197,000 annually in 2007). just because your kids don't get sick or die doesn't mean you're not putting a lot of others at a horrible risk. for a made up problem.

571 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:12pm

re: #550 redstateredneck

No, they recommend it for girls starting at age 13 who are not sexually active.

From the CDC

572 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:30pm

re: #544 Honorary Yooper

Even with only one partner for her, there is no guarantee that she will be his only partner.


That's what I was trying to say...It came out garbled.

573 Yashmak  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:30pm

re: #548 Leonidas Hoplite

Thanks for the reference/link.

574 JHW  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:08:37pm

In Samuel Pepy's famous diary, in 1658 he mentions the operation he underwent for removal of a "stone". Maybe these anti-vaccination fools should study a bit of history before they try to discard centuries' of hard-won medical advances.

The method of doing the job is well recorded and for the non-urologically minded, let me briefly describe the procedure. I hope you are not eating as you listen to this. The patient was placed on the edge of a table with the head raised and the buttocks projecting beyond the end. The legs were flexed at the knees and tied up with a rope, so the victim assumed a position which was as inelegant then as it is today when used for some gynaecological procedures, the so-called lithotomy position. Assistants held the patient securely and some sedation such as mandrake root or solution of opium was given, a concoction which probably stiffened the surgeon’s resolve rather than mollified the patient.
The actual operation involved putting a finger in the rectum to either steady the stone or pull it down to bulge at the perineum. This was incised, a dilator passed into the bladder and the stone either flicked out or seized and crushed with forceps. There were more refined alternatives, but whatever bloody and painful method was used, the skill lay in rapidity of operation and avoiding the prostate and seminal vesicles.

Samuel Pepys' Diary

575 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:08pm

Gas explosion at shopping center in MD. No injuries. People were evacuated. Forrestville MD.

576 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:15pm

re: #547 Flyers1974

Thanks, I'll try to fiind it. The book I was discussing is "A world lit only by fire" by William Manchester. Don't know who he is, but he describes life during the dark ages. After reading it, easy to understand the term "Dark Ages."

I love that book.

577 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:16pm

re: #525 MandyManners

My concern is that it presumes that EVERY girl is having sex.

What is this "it" that is doing this presuming? The vaccine? Are you saying the vaccine is making presumptions? I think you're projecting, Mandy.

578 Gella  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:20pm

re: #545 Desert Dog

Cervical cancer can be stopped with this vaccine. Most people do not even know they have this virus and may carry it around for years. I have three sons, but if I had a daughter, I would want her to get this vaccine.

its actually doesn't prevent 100% from cervical cancer, only from "popular" strengths of HPV

579 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:28pm

re: #547 Flyers1974

Thanks, I'll try to fiind it. The book I was discussing is "A world lit only by fire" by William Manchester. Don't know who he is, but he describes life during the dark ages. After reading it, easy to understand the term "Dark Ages."

Here's some info on William Manchester. Great writer.

He wrote the first two volumes of a planned trilogy on Winston Churchill (both very good) but, sadly, was too ill to finish the final volume.

580 ilzito guacamolito  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:35pm

re: #566 Desert Dog

good question. Boys (and Men) are the carriers I believe.....I have not heard anything about offering it to boys? Is this a gender specific vaccine? Is there such a thing?

The vaccine is expensive and the ROI in males is not that great.

581 Leonidas Hoplite  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:41pm

re: #573 Yashmak

Thanks for the reference/link.

Good luck.

582 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:44pm
583 SFGoth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:09:53pm

re: #569 Erik The Red

Still here.:) I am a very lucky father. Both of my girls are going to be Nuns.

Can it be spread by girl-on-girl contact? They do share toys you know.

584 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:10:07pm

re: #553 NY Nana

When insulin was made from cows and then pigs, Orthodox Jews took it, as in Judaism, saving a life comes first. I cannot fast on Yom Kippur because I am on insulin(we are kosher, but now insulins are made with recombinant DNA)....and the levels that the cult of islam go to? Barbaric. and also, I cannot imagine that any valid religion would keep their members from doing whatever has to be done to save lives.

I do not recall any vaccines containing matter from swine, but the swine are given inoculations, IIRC.

Insh'Allah.

585 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:10:15pm

re: #580 ilzito guacamolito

The vaccine is expensive and the ROI in males is not that great.

Thanks for that info, I was not aware of that.

586 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:10:24pm

re: #577 Kenneth

What is this "it" that is doing this presuming? The vaccine? Are you saying the vaccine is making presumptions? I think you're projecting, Mandy.

I think the "it" is the advocating giving it to every 13 year old girl.

587 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:10:46pm

re: #562 SanFranciscoZionist

How would Big Gay Uncle Thag look any different from Big Straight Uncle Thag? More fabulous loincloth?

Yes, and he'd be doing the "Neanderthal Mistake".

/RIP Dom Deluise

588 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:10:48pm

re: #567 Ben Hur

I've seen reports of girls dying from it.

Schlussel blogs about it a lot.

Don't know if it's part of some over all anti-vac ideology or not.

Dying from Gardasil?

Not surprisingly, there's a World Net Daily article about this, claiming that there have been at least 18 and possibly as many as 20 deaths. I hope y'all don't mind if I don't link to it.

589 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:11:10pm

re: #557 Last Mohican

Another interesting ethical question: should boys be encouraged to have the vaccine too, even though they can't get cervical cancer, because they're usually the ones who give HPV to the girls?

Makes sense to me. Why are they not recommending it, does anyone know?

590 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:11:55pm

re: #587 Occasional Reader

Yes, and he'd be doing the "Neanderthal Mistake".

/RIP Dom Deluise

You know, those long Mastodon hunts can go on for weeks. It gets lonely out there in that cold dark cave with no cave babes around..

591 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:22pm

re: #525 MandyManners

My concern is that it presumes that EVERY girl is having sex.

Is sex the only way to contract HPV? If not, it is sensible protection. Are the groups that are fighting it, and casting its use as a license for teens to have casual unprotected sex, trying to use the threat of infection as a deterrent for those teens? Do those groups think that will be any more successful than all the other infection threats that have been used through the ages?

592 American Sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:32pm

re: #479 buzzsawmonkey

Yea, well see #558. I wasn't thinking about it correctly.

The article mentioned upthread was about a documentary on this phenomenom of gay men infecting themselves. I don't believe it's being done any longer. I wasn't trying to soft-peddle anything. I just don't like gay-bashing and get my hackles up when I sense it and I hadn't thought this one out too clearly.

It is an old story and to my knowledge something that isn't happening any longer.

593 Rancher  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:36pm

re: #2 taxfreekiller

Thank goodness the 20 million illegal immigrants all have their shots, other wise there could be real trouble.


I wonder if Tancredo points that out when he speaks out against illegal immigrants?

594 formercorpsman  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:45pm

re: #575 Nevergiveup

I know exactly where that is. Somewhat off the beaten path.

595 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:46pm

re: #589 SanFranciscoZionist

Makes sense to me. Why are they not recommending it, does anyone know?

From the CDC's fact sheet:

What about vaccinating boys and men?

We do not yet know if the vaccine is effective in boys or men. It is possible that vaccinating males will have health benefits for them by preventing genital warts and rare cancers, such as penile and anal cancer. It is also possible that vaccinating boys/men will have indirect health benefits for girls/women. Studies are now being done to find out if the vaccine works to prevent HPV infection and disease in males. When more information is available, this vaccine may be licensed and recommended for boys/men as well.

They sure like to use a lot of hedgy language in these things, huh?

596 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:48pm

re: #583 SFGoth

Can it be spread by girl-on-girl contact? They do share toys you know.

I said Nuns, not lesbians.

597 Neutral President  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:12:57pm

re: #588 Last Mohican

Dying from Gardasil?

Not surprisingly, there's a World Net Daily article about this, claiming that there have been at least 18 and possibly as many as 20 deaths. I hope y'all don't mind if I don't link to it.

But... but.... if WND said it it must be the lords own truth!

////need I?

598 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:13:03pm

Insulin?

Me lady don't need no insulin!

599 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:13:11pm

re: #577 Kenneth

What is this "it" that is doing this presuming? The vaccine? Are you saying the vaccine is making presumptions? I think you're projecting, Mandy.

I'm not. I'm just repeating what I've heard a few mothers of girls have said at the park.

As for the "it", I am referring to an idea, a notion.

600 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:13:45pm

OT -

I ran out to get some sushi for lunch and listened to Mark Steyn on the radio for a few. He made an interesting point that I have not heard articulated before: When a Republican calls themself a "socon" sooner or later they become more "so" than "con." This is because if they are socially liberal, funding for programs, etc., trumps their fiscally conservative stance. It's a circle that can't be squared.

601 Mad Al-Jaffee  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:14:18pm

re: #549 subsailor68

Homo Erectus?

602 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:14:25pm

re: #590 Desert Dog

You know, those long Mastodon hunts can go on for weeks. It gets lonely out there in that cold dark cave with no cave babes around..

And then the big, hairy, paunchy gay Cro-Magnons would occasionally form a "Clan of the Cave Bears".

603 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:14:53pm

re: #599 MandyManners

I'm not. I'm just repeating what I've heard a few mothers of girls have said at the park.

As for the "it", I am referring to an idea, a notion.

Both my girls will have the vac. What is the best age to have it done?

604 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:14:55pm

re: #588 Last Mohican

Dying from Gardasil?

Not surprisingly, there's a World Net Daily article about this, claiming that there have been at least 18 and possibly as many as 20 deaths. I hope y'all don't mind if I don't link to it.


I googled it too and found World Net Daily, Natural News, some blogs. Nothing that looked highly credible.

605 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:15:00pm

re: #591 CyanSnowHawk

Is sex the only way to contract HPV? If not, it is sensible protection. Are the groups that are fighting it, and casting its use as a license for teens to have casual unprotected sex, trying to use the threat of infection as a deterrent for those teens? Do those groups think that will be any more successful than all the other infection threats that have been used through the ages?

I have no idea about any group fighting it. It's not something I've researched. However, to my knowledge, HPV is transmitted only by sex. I could be wrong.

606 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:15:08pm

re: #578 Gella

its actually doesn't prevent 100% from cervical cancer, only from "popular" strengths of HPV

About 70% of cervical cancers (caused by HPV) can be prevented with it. Good odds, IMHO, to use the vaccine. It also works on genital warts and other nether region cancers also caused by HPV. The CDC link above in #571 states that they are testing it in males now to see if it is effective on those cancers (penile and anal) and warts caused by HPV.

607 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:15:24pm

re: #596 Erik The Red

re: #583 SFGoth

Can it be spread by girl-on-girl contact? They do share toys you know.

I said Nuns, not lesbians.

This thread is getting damn interesting.

608 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:15:31pm

re: #567 Ben Hur

I've seen reports of girls dying from it.

Schlussel blogs about it a lot.

Don't know if it's part of some over all anti-vac ideology or not.

There are reports alleging death caused by it, but no case has proven a connection.

609 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:08pm

Penile?

Like Egypt?

610 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:13pm

re: #579 subsailor68

Thanks, great book especially for those like me who aren't well-read on that time period. Gives a great picture of the times of the commoners. Funny you should mention Churchill. Just leant my brother first two volumes of History of WW2.

611 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:16pm

re: #607 Occasional Reader

This thread is getting damn interesting.

I'm blushing furiously.

612 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:20pm

re: #601 Mad Al-Jaffee

Homo Erectus?

Rectus? He damn near killed us!

613 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:31pm

re: #584 MandyManners

Insh'Allah.

Wiseguy!

614 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:48pm

re: #609 Ben Hur

Penile?

Like Egypt?

No, like Australia. (Which was founded as a penile colony.)

615 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:50pm

re: #602 Occasional Reader

And then the big, hairy, paunchy gay Cro-Magnons would occasionally form a "Clan of the Cave Bears".

OK, out of the thread

616 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:16:50pm

re: #609 Ben Hur

Penile?

Like Egypt?

Now you're just being juve-nile.

617 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:17:14pm

re: #596 Erik The Red

I said Nuns, not lesbians.

Lights out at 10. Candles out at 11.

618 Archimedes  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:17:18pm

Celebrities aren't experts in science (well, most aren't) and they shouldn't pretend to be. This stuff can cost lives.

619 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:17:46pm

re: #613 NY Nana

Hiya' Nana!

620 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:03pm

re: #611 MandyManners

I'm blushing furiously.

Monica Bellucci, dressed as a nun, passionately licking Patricia Arquette's armpits (who is dressed as a cavewoman).

How d'ya like them apples?

621 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:10pm
622 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:16pm

re: #614 Occasional Reader

No, like Australia. (Which was founded as a penile colony.)

Wasn't Georgia?

623 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:18pm

re: #608 Kenneth

There are reports alleging death caused by it, but no case has proven a connection.

There are quite a few deaths by not getting it as well. But, it looks like the death rate has drastically declined over the past 50 years.

Cervical Cancer death rates

624 Honorary Yooper  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:24pm

re: #618 Archimedes

Celebrities aren't experts in science (well, most aren't) and they shouldn't pretend to be. This stuff can cost lives.

These celebs are just as expert in science as they are in politics.

625 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:18:31pm

re: #618 Archimedes

Celebrities aren't experts in science (well, most aren't) and they shouldn't pretend to be. This stuff can cost lives.

They're not experts on a lot of things, but that doesn't shut them up.

626 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:19:01pm

re: #618 Archimedes

Celebrities aren't experts in science (well, most aren't) and they shouldn't pretend to be. This stuff can cost lives.

Allow me to quote from an expert on the subject.

"Matt Damon." - Matt Damon

627 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:19:04pm

re: #620 Occasional Reader

*runs away screaming*

628 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:19:22pm

re: #620 Occasional Reader

Monica Bellucci, dressed as a nun, passionately licking Patricia Arquette's armpits (who is dressed as a cavewoman).

How d'ya like them apples?

Quick, get that idea into development!

629 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:19:52pm

re: #618 Archimedes

Celebrities aren't experts in science (well, most aren't) and they shouldn't pretend to be. This stuff can cost lives.

But, but, but, they are famous! Come on, anyone that is famous automatically becomes an expert on everything. Just ask them, they will you tell you.

630 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:20:02pm

re: #610 Flyers1974

Thanks, great book especially for those like me who aren't well-read on that time period. Gives a great picture of the times of the commoners. Funny you should mention Churchill. Just leant my brother first two volumes of History of WW2.

If you're a Churchill fan, Martin Gilbert is the number one guy in that field. (The official biography - started by Churchill's son Randolph - is wonderful. If you can get through all gazillion volumes, that is!)

631 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:20:26pm

OT:
So, the NY Times headlines "Iraqi Forces: Rebuilt and Stronger, but Still Stumbling"

Only problem is that they're not stumbling. They're still on a steep learning curve and politics is continuing to get in the way, including Obama's political decision to withdraw from Iraq.

632 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:21:10pm

re: #619 MandyManners

{Mandy}

OT: Anyone who lives in NJ? Rt. 17 is now flooded, and it is pouring there..all the way from southern Jersey; also starting to move in here, and the metro NYC area...see you later! Closing down, just in case.

633 KansasMom  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:21:12pm

re: #567 Ben Hur

I've seen reports of girls dying from it.

Schlussel blogs about it a lot.

Don't know if it's part of some over all anti-vac ideology or not.

The Wichita paper (can't find the articles now....grrrr) has been running articles about a local high school student who is dying from complications of the Gardisil vaccination. Not sure how much credibility to give the Gardisil connection, but the girl really is very sick and is not going to get better.
I do vaccinate my children! But Gardisil is not mandatory, does not contribute to herd immunity, and only offers partial protection against HPV which may lead to cancer. This is one I'll skip.

634 revobob  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:21:21pm

One lunch-time drive by- I remember seeing something that oruported to link cervical cancer with increased likelihood of throat cancer in males (or others) who practiced cunning linguistics. No time to look for link now, but perhaps someone else has also seen that.

635 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:22:46pm

re: #634 revobob

One lunch-time drive by- I remember seeing something that oruported to link cervical cancer with increased likelihood of throat cancer in males (or others) who practiced cunning linguistics. No time to look for link now, but perhaps someone else has also seen that.

WHAT?!

But I thought the "little man in the boat" was my friend!

636 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:22:46pm
637 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:23:11pm

re: #632 NY Nana

{Mandy}

OT: Anyone who lives in NJ? Rt. 17 is now flooded, and it is pouring there..all the way from southern Jersey; also starting to move in here, and the metro NYC area...see you later! Closing down, just in case.

Not a cloud to be seen and already at 97 here (1215pm)....PLEASE send some of that rain this way.

638 Wendya  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:23:24pm

re: #477 MandyManners

What about the HPV vaccination that is being pushed on girls?

This is an example of bad "marketing". If they were interested in eradicating cervical cancer, they would have pushed from day one for the vaccine to be given to boys and girls. Instead, they focused only on the girls which leave the virus free to continue to be spread.

639 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:23:44pm

re: #634 revobob

One lunch-time drive by- I remember seeing something that oruported to link cervical cancer with increased likelihood of throat cancer in males (or others) who practiced cunning linguistics. No time to look for link now, but perhaps someone else has also seen that.

If they'd just stick to licking armpits they'd be safe.

640 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:23:59pm

re: #632 NY Nana

{Mandy}

OT: Anyone who lives in NJ? Rt. 17 is now flooded, and it is pouring there..all the way from southern Jersey; also starting to move in here, and the metro NYC area...see you later! Closing down, just in case.

Take care!

641 Gella  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:24:26pm

re: #638 Wendya

This is an example of bad "marketing". If they were interested in eradicating cervical cancer, they would have pushed from day one for the vaccine to be given to boys and girls. Instead, they focused only on the girls which leave the virus free to continue to be spread.

reminds me of medication for bone loss, because they were never really tested on males up to about 1-2 years ago

642 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:24:26pm

re: #639 redstateredneck

If they'd just stick to licking armpits they'd be safe.

Depends on the pit

/hairballs

643 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:24:31pm

re: #636 buzzsawmonkey

Dammit, OR, I write you a ragtime rigadoon and you don't even notice.

Dingwhore!

644 ladycatnip  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:03pm
And to make things even worse, support for anti-vaccination insanity is now beginning to show up in GOP state platforms; from the Oklahoma platform...

My thought is that up until now the vaccine controversy has always been driven by the left. The article speaks of more than a quarter of a kindergarten class in Ashland, Oregon not being vaccinated - Oregon is a VERY blue state. Jenny McCarthy, I'm sure, is not a conservative either, and we all know Oprah isn't a friend of conservatives.

So the question is, why are GOP'ers jumping on this bandwagon?

645 Erik The Red  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:08pm

OK for real this time. Over and out Lizards. Stay dry and scaly.

646 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:18pm

re: #642 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Depends on the pit

/hairballs

eww, you didn't!

647 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:28pm
648 Wendya  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:44pm

re: #566 Desert Dog

good question. Boys (and Men) are the carriers I believe.....I have not heard anything about offering it to boys? Is this a gender specific vaccine? Is there such a thing?


They offer it to boys in Europe.

649 debutaunt  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:45pm

re: #607 Occasional Reader

This thread is getting damn interesting.

I'm a bit confused. Do nuns use some sort of underarm toys now?

650 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:25:56pm

re: #638 Wendya

This is an example of bad "marketing". If they were interested in eradicating cervical cancer, they would have pushed from day one for the vaccine to be given to boys and girls. Instead, they focused only on the girls which leave the virus free to continue to be spread.

I cannot tell you how freakin' thrilled I'm gonna' be to have the condom discussion with The Kid when he hits the teens.

651 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:26:05pm

re: #638 Wendya

This is an example of bad "marketing". If they were interested in eradicating cervical cancer, they would have pushed from day one for the vaccine to be given to boys and girls. Instead, they focused only on the girls which leave the virus free to continue to be spread.

There's a post above from, I think, the CDC website stating that it's efficacy in males is unknown at the moment, but that studies are being done to determine if it is effective.

Meanwhile, boys have to get it from somewhere, so protection is conferred even if only one sex is vaccinated.

652 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #646 redstateredneck

eww, you didn't!

I never did.

What's the last sound heard before a pubic hair hits the floor?

/makes a spitting sound

653 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:26:41pm

re: #650 MandyManners

I cannot tell you how freakin' thrilled I'm gonna' be to have the condom discussion with The Kid when he hits the teens.

Do you got a brother?

654 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:26:55pm

re: #632 NY Nana

Also, those traveling on Rt 46 in Lodi should take care. There's a VP Biden sighting, as he and Sen. Lautenberg are going to be mugging for the cameras to tout infrastructure repairs.

655 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:26:59pm

re: #649 debutaunt

I'm a bit confused. Do nuns use some sort of underarm toys now?

I'm just going to roll-on by that comment.

656 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:27:14pm

re: #635 Occasional Reader

You're effen high.

657 JHW  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:27:22pm

re: #638 Wendya

Hasn't been approved by the FDA yet. Merck is trying to get it approved.
HPV Vaccine for Boys

658 ShanghaiEd  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:27:49pm

re: #621 buzzsawmonkey

"Bashing" is physical abuse. "Gay-bashing" refers to people being beaten or otherwise assaulted.

"Gay-baiting" refers to pejorative remarks, or remarks at least perceived as pejorative.

It is one of the political crimes of the gay-rights movement that it has intentionally and systematically equated verbal disagreement with physical violence for 30 years by taking a term formerly used--even by that movement--to refer only to assault, and applying it to verbal disagreement.

Mmmm. So, "Bush-bashing" meant folks were literally beating the Prez up, every day? I missed that.

659 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:27:51pm

re: #653 Nevergiveup

Do you got a brother?

No but, my sister is a lesbian.

660 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:28:24pm

re: #647 buzzsawmonkey

Guilty as charged.

I hope you are at least vaccinated.

661 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:28:45pm

re: #659 MandyManners

No but, my sister is a lesbian.


I don't think that will work for the talk? It might confuse him. It would me.

662 debutaunt  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:28:48pm

re: #635 Occasional Reader

WHAT?!

But I thought the "little man in the boat" was my friend!

No need to approach the cervix.

663 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:28:49pm

re: #656 Ben Hur

You're effen high.

Only on life, my friend. And the (really delicious) mahi-mahi I had for lunch.

664 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:29:49pm

re: #649 debutaunt

I'm a bit confused. Do nuns use some sort of underarm toys now?

Some kinda strange habit.

665 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:00pm

re: #662 debutaunt

No need to approach the cervix.

Look, I didn't mean to invulva'll of you in a new pun thread.

666 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:00pm

re: #661 Nevergiveup

I don't think that will work for the talk? It might confuse him. It would me.

I'm afraid I'm gonna' hafta' do that talk. My father is waaaaaaaay too stuffy for that one.

667 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:07pm

re: #649 debutaunt

I'm a bit confused. Do nuns use some sort of underarm toys now?

I'll set the tone a little, light a few candles....put on some under arm music....

668 Russkilitlover  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:27pm

re: #650 MandyManners

I cannot tell you how freakin' thrilled I'm gonna' be to have the condom discussion with The Kid when he hits the teens.

I'm sure he'll get the class demo looooonnnngggg before his teens.

669 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:42pm

re: #426 Leonidas Hoplite

given the proclivity of people to just mindlessly consume idiotic media.

Rotating title nomination

670 Ben Hur  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:56pm

re: #665 Occasional Reader

Look, I didn't mean to invulva'll of you in a new pun thread.


Hopefully this thread will go into the anals of history soon.

671 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:30:59pm
672 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:09pm

re: #668 Russkilitlover

I'm sure he'll get the class demo looooonnnngggg before his teens.

He'll show YOU how to use one! Kids these days are worldly.

673 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:11pm

re: #664 Spare O'Lake

Some kinda strange habit.

They can't compline (but sometimes they still do).

674 Wendya  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:20pm

re: #651 SixDegrees

There's a post above from, I think, the CDC website stating that it's efficacy in males is unknown at the moment, but that studies are being done to determine if it is effective.

Meanwhile, boys have to get it from somewhere, so protection is conferred even if only one sex is vaccinated.

The research has been done but they're waiting on the FDA to approve it for use in boys. The main barrier right now is cost.

Protection is only conferred if every girl is required to take the vaccination. Since that's not the case, it makes sense to vaccinate every boy or girl with willing parents. The argument for girls has been easy... you want to reduce your risk of getting cervical cancer. The argument for boys should be equally easy. You do not want to give a girl a virus that causes cancer.

675 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:37pm

re: #668 Russkilitlover

I'm sure he'll get the class demo looooonnnngggg before his teens.

He goes to a petty conservative, Christian school.

676 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #599 MandyManners

I was teasing you. But I have a point. There is a lot of loose logic on the anti-vax side of these arguments.

The assumption is not that every 13 year old girl WILL have sex, but that there is a greater than zero chance that any given girl MIGHT have sex. The vaccine only works if it is taken before contracting HPV. Given that 50% of American adults have HPV, the chances are pretty high that a teen will encounter it if they have sex.

That's the big scary word here: sex! If HPV was spread by sneezing there wouldn't be any hysteria over this. It scares some parents to think their 14 year old daughter might be having sex, so scared in fact, the will deny their child a vaccination that will protect them against a deadly cancer. Well get over it.

I'm all for teaching our kids abstinence. And if they won't listen to that, because sometimes teens are reckless (don't know if you knew that!)... so I am all for teaching our kids to be responsible and safe.

We got our teenage daughters vaccinated with Guardasil. We told them this was part of a layered defense against disease. We still expected them to abstain. But just like riding in a car, we don't plan to crash into trees, but we still give them seat belts, just in case.

Personally, I don't want to get a call from my daughter when she's thirty something telling me, "Guess what dad? I got cervical cancer. Yeah, isn't that great? So thanks for not letting me get vaccinated when I was 14. I know I promised to abstain from sex until I was married, and I did for a while, but in college... he told me he was a virgin too, but he lied... I guess I deserve to die now. Bye."

677 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:31:57pm

re: #605 MandyManners

I have no idea about any group fighting it. It's not something I've researched. However, to my knowledge, HPV is transmitted only by sex. I could be wrong.

I just found this, an HPV FAQ. It seems to confirm what you said. It is passed by close intimate skin-to-skin contact.

678 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:32:43pm

re: #671 buzzsawmonkey

It is one of the most insidious corruptions of the political language I can recall in my adult life.

We will not tolerate bash-bashing on this blog.

679 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:32:45pm

re: #530 redstateredneck

My 18 year old got it. I felt like it was a prudent measure.


Our daughters get it. Even if they are pure as the driven snow until the day of their marriage there is no guarantee they will never come into contact with a spouse who has been exposed to HPV.

680 debutaunt  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:32:57pm

re: #675 MandyManners

He goes to a petty conservative, Christian school.

hahahahahaahhaha

681 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:33:34pm

re: #608 Kenneth

There are reports alleging death caused by it, but no case has proven a connection.

I just checked the official Gardasil package insert (warning: pdf)

They report a study of 25,274 subjects who received either Gardasil (13,686 people) or a control injection with AAHS (Amorphous Aluminum Hydroxyphosphate Sulfate, 11,004 people) or saline (584 people).

I won't copy all the serious systemic adverse events that they reported. There were 24 deaths, mainly from things like car accidents that couldn't possibly be due to the vaccine, and were for the most part just as common in the placebo group.

There was one case of bronchospasm, in the Gardasil group -- I guess that could have been due to the vaccine. Or else someone just happened to have an asthma attack after the injection.

Basically, I wouldn't be worried at all.

682 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:33:36pm

re: #670 Ben Hur

Hopefully this thread will go into the anals of history soon.

It will at least become part of LGF's oral tradition.

683 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:33:41pm
684 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:33:43pm

re: #676 Kenneth

I was teasing you. But I have a point. There is a lot of loose logic on the anti-vax side of these arguments.

The assumption is not that every 13 year old girl WILL have sex, but that there is a greater than zero chance that any given girl MIGHT have sex. The vaccine only works if it is taken before contracting HPV. Given that 50% of American adults have HPV, the chances are pretty high that a teen will encounter it if they have sex.

That's the big scary word here: sex! If HPV was spread by sneezing there wouldn't be any hysteria over this. It scares some parents to think their 14 year old daughter might be having sex, so scared in fact, the will deny their child a vaccination that will protect them against a deadly cancer. Well get over it.

I'm all for teaching our kids abstinence. And if they won't listen to that, because sometimes teens are reckless (don't know if you knew that!)... so I am all for teaching our kids to be responsible and safe.

We got our teenage daughters vaccinated with Guardasil. We told them this was part of a layered defense against disease. We still expected them to abstain. But just like riding in a car, we don't plan to crash into trees, but we still give them seat belts, just in case.

Personally, I don't want to get a call from my daughter when she's thirty something telling me, "Guess what dad? I got cervical cancer. Yeah, isn't that great? So thanks for not letting me get vaccinated when I was 14. I know I promised to abstain from sex until I was married, and I did for a while, but in college... he told me he was a virgin too, but he lied... I guess I deserve to die now. Bye."

That's the kind of language I'm gonna' use when I talk to The Kid about sex.

685 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:33:56pm

re: #678 Occasional Reader

We will not tolerate bash-bashing on this blog.

Bash-baiting then? Bait bashing? bait bushing?

686 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:34:05pm

re: #675 MandyManners

He goes to a petty conservative, Christian school.


Tell us what you really think.

687 KansasMom  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:34:17pm

re: #638 Wendya

This is an example of bad "marketing". If they were interested in eradicating cervical cancer, they would have pushed from day one for the vaccine to be given to boys and girls. Instead, they focused only on the girls which leave the virus free to continue to be spread.

If they would just advertise it as protection against GENITAL WARTS instead of cervical cancer, they'd probably have teenagers busting down the doors of the health clinic!

688 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:34:29pm

Speaking of The Kid, gotta' got pick him up from school. bbl

689 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:34:57pm

re: #687 KansasMom

If they would just advertise it as protection against GENITAL WARTS instead of cervical cancer, they'd probably have teenagers busting down the doors of the health clinic!

Show them a few pictures, they will want the vaccine...yuck.

690 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:35:12pm

re: #677 CyanSnowHawk

close intimate skin-to-skin contact.

And I can't help but think back now to my post #620.

691 MandyManners  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:35:25pm

Fucking typos.

692 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:35:28pm

re: #659 MandyManners

No but, my sister is a lesbian.

That would suggest an even greater lack of knowledge of the subject of condoms.

693 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:35:36pm

re: #671 buzzsawmonkey

The linguistic corruption of using "-bashing" to refer to speech rather than physical violence was introduced, and popularized, by the gay-rights movement.

The confusion between the two--which is used to justify "hate-crime" laws, "speech codes" and other incursions on free verbal expression--is directly connected to this activity by the gay-rights movement over the last several decades.

It is one of the most insidious corruptions of the political language I can recall in my adult life.

Hate crimes laws incur on free verbal expression in what way?

694 debutaunt  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:36:44pm

re: #691 MandyManners

Fucking typos.

I knew what you meant, but it struck me funny.

695 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:36:51pm

re: #683 buzzsawmonkey

If you don't mind my getting Biblical for a moment, I will not tolerate the Bull of Bashing.

At least don't start bashing Andrew Sullivan, because that would be bear-baiting. And then PETA gets involved.

696 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:37:05pm

re: #687 KansasMom

If they would just advertise it as protection against GENITAL WARTS instead of cervical cancer, they'd probably have teenagers busting down the doors of the health clinic!

True, that. As David Sedaris once remarked, "There's nothing less attractive than a scabby penis."

697 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:37:29pm

re: #630 subsailor68

On a related topic, PBS had on last night, can't remember the program's name, a show about among other things, the relationship between Hitler/Stalin. One thing that I didn't know (and neither did Churchill apparently) was that not only did Stalin avoid antagonizing Hitler, but made a clear unsolicited (private) statement that he would assist Hitler, should he have undue trouble with France and England. And when he said assist, the implication was by declaring war.

698 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:37:51pm

re: #696 SixDegrees

True, that. As David Sedaris once remarked, "There's nothing less attractive than a scabby penis."

I think I just threw up in my mouth some

699 J.S.  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:38:07pm

re: #693 SanFranciscoZionist

uh -- you've not heard about Ezra Levant's ordeals at the Kangaroo Courts known as the Human "rights" commissions (HRCs) here in Canada?

700 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:38:38pm

re: #681 Last Mohican

I read it too, before we had our daughters vaccinated.

701 Nevergiveup  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:38:52pm

re: #675 MandyManners

He goes to a petty conservative, Christian school.

And Bristol Palin came from a conservative Christian Family. Kids will be Kids. And teens will be teens. And the back seat will always be the back seat. Just saying.

702 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:38:58pm

re: #650 MandyManners

I cannot tell you how freakin' thrilled I'm gonna' be to have the condom discussion with The Kid when he hits the teens.

Make it fun. Decorate his room with helium filled Trojans.

703 saberry0530  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:39:25pm

re: #696 SixDegrees

True, that. As David Sedaris once remarked, "There's nothing less attractive than a scabby penis."

And that leads to this

704 Rancher  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:39:58pm

Given that 7000 people die yearly from aspirin it should be obvious that any medicine, treatment, and even diagnosis involves some amount of risk. As in everything we do, even getting in a car, we have to weigh the risks with the rewards. One thing for certain, your rights end when they impinge on the rights of others. You don't want to vaccinate your kids then keep them out of my kid's school.

705 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:40:06pm

re: #691 MandyManners

Fucking typos.

Is this what you mean?

706 SasquatchOnSteroids  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:41:13pm

re: #701 Nevergiveup

And Bristol Palin came from a conservative Christian Family. Kids will be Kids. And teens will be teens. And the back seat will always be the back seat. Just saying.

Nothing worse than a small car with a parking brake between the front seats during those years. But I made do.....

707 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:41:26pm

re: #699 J.S.

uh -- you've not heard about Ezra Levant's ordeals at the Kangaroo Courts known as the Human "rights" commissions (HRCs) here in Canada?

Oh, Canada.

708 Archimedes  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:42:01pm

re: #625 redstateredneck

They're not experts on a lot of things, but that doesn't shut them up.

No it doesn't, sadly. Then I read Amanda Peet, who thinks that not vaccinating will bring back disease, and that this is as indisputable as global warming.

709 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:42:04pm

re: #701 Nevergiveup

And Bristol Palin came from a conservative Christian Family. Kids will be Kids. And teens will be teens. And the back seat will always be the back seat. Just saying.

Teach them everything, hope for the best, prepare for the worst, love them intensely no matter what.

710 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:42:32pm

re: #693 SanFranciscoZionist

Hate crimes laws incur on free verbal expression in what way?

Before Andrew Sullivan lost his mind, he actually wrote a very good piece on exactly that topic: "What's So Bad About Hate?"

There are excellent reasons why anyone concerned with civil liberties and civic equality should be suspicious of so-called "hate crimes laws".

711 albusteve  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:42:45pm

no bones about it...


[Link: amfix.blogs.cnn.com...]

712 UFO TOFU  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:42:48pm

Did anyone click on #703? I'm afraid to.

713 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:43:17pm

re: #697 Flyers1974

I do remember that "relationship". Don't know if you have HBO or not, but you might like this HBO original:

The Gathering Storm

And, on May 31st, they're airing the second part:

Into the Storm

Oddly, the first one starred Albert Finney as Churchill, and the second one will star Brendan Gleeson.

714 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:43:34pm
715 J.S.  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:43:35pm

re: #707 SanFranciscoZionist

hmmm....and I wonder if it can't happen in the United States...(I'm a U.S. citizen, btw). There is that anit-hate bill (so I hear) that's passed in the House, and is expected to pass in the Senate...

716 saberry0530  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:43:46pm

re: #712 UFO TOFU

Did anyone click on #703? I'm afraid to.

CHICKEN?

717 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:44:18pm

re: #625 redstateredneck

They're not experts on a lot of things, but that doesn't shut them up.

Celebrities are experts at playing make believe, which is what they do for a living. Any surprise that so many of them live in a fantasy world totally divorced from the reality that most of the rest of us inhabit.

718 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:44:57pm

re: #712 UFO TOFU

Did anyone click on #703? I'm afraid to.

Hey, the wrote a song about me

719 cathyf  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:45:24pm

re: #46 Last Mohican

These days, medical schools (at least the one that I went to) are big on teaching acceptance of nontraditional medicine. One aspect of that is being careful to ask patients if they are taking any supplements, herbal medicines, or other "nontraditional" treatments, because some of those can exacerbate medical problems or interact in bad ways with other medications. Another aspect is being supportive of patients who want to try nontraditional therapies, because (1) they mostly don't hurt, and (2) they might help -- we shouldn't presume that as Western scientists we know more than everyone else.


Something that I think is important to understand, and that a lot of medical professionals are rather obtuse about, is that for a significant number of people "alternative medicine" means "exactly like regular medicine, except delivered by doctors and other medical professionals who refrain from being assholes while they are doing it." Have you ever watched the Cancer Treatment Center of America commercials? That's what they are selling. (Whether they succeed is an entirely different matter, of course.)

Because to those people, when doctors talk down about "alternative therapies" what people understand the doctors to be doing is that they are asserting the right to behave brusquely and rudely to their patients. And guess what? They are likely to disagree with that!

720 albusteve  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:45:56pm

re: #717 LGoPs

Celebrities are experts at playing make believe, which is what they do for a living. Any surprise that so many of them live in a fantasy world totally divorced from the reality that most of the rest of us inhabit.

fantasy is the new reality these days...everyone is doing it

721 UFO TOFU  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:46:00pm

re: #716 saberry0530

Is it safe?

722 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:46:53pm

I'm Sure surprised that Charles did not Ban all this armpit talk. His reason for not doing so must be a Secret.

723 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:46:56pm

re: #714 buzzsawmonkey

Hate-crime laws are in essence thought-crime laws. They are value-added criminality on the grounds that Favored Group X has had its feelings hurt.

Assault, intimidation, vandalism, etc., are what they are. Prosecute them as such, to the fullest extent of the law. But start introducing criminality on the grounds of somebody's opinions, and you are going down a very nasty road.

Sure, fair argument, although 'feelings' is not what's usually been hurt. But do they infringe on verbal expression?

724 subsailor68  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:47:11pm

re: #721 UFO TOFU

Is it safe?

Isn't that what Sir Laurence Olivier asked Dustin Hoffman?

(Obscure movie reference.)

725 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:47:23pm

re: #721 UFO TOFU

Is it safe?

If I had a nickel for everytime I heard that....

726 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:47:31pm

re: #714 buzzsawmonkey

Hate-crime laws are in essence thought-crime laws. They are value-added criminality on the grounds that Favored Group X has had its feelings hurt.

Assault, intimidation, vandalism, etc., are what they are. Prosecute them as such, to the fullest extent of the law. But start introducing criminality on the grounds of somebody's opinions, and you are going down a very nasty road.

As I like to point out, the elements that a prosecutor would investigate whether something is a "hate crime", are essentially the same elements that a prosecutor in an unfree regime would investigate to determine whether a political crime was committed. What was the defendant reading? With whom did he speak? What were his opinions?

And THAT should send up serious red flags in one's mind.

727 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:47:32pm
Given that 50% of American adults have HPV, the chances are pretty high that a teen will encounter it if they have sex.

I find that statistic highly questionable, especially if you are talking about the HPV that causes genital warts.

HPVs are a large class of viruses that can cause all kinds of warts.

No way do 50% of American adults have genital wart HPV.

728 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:47:41pm

re: #723 SanFranciscoZionist

Sure, fair argument, although 'feelings' is not what's usually been hurt. But do they infringe on verbal expression?

Not trying to be a twerp here, but you are the one who stated that saying 'bashing' rather than 'baiting' was essentially a crime against language.

/

729 Kragar  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:48:12pm

re: #722 redstateredneck

I'm Sure surprised that Charles did not Ban all this armpit talk. His reason for not doing so must be a Secret.

I think he is content to just let them roll on

730 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:48:45pm

re: #722 redstateredneck

I'm Sure surprised that Charles did not Ban all this armpit talk. His reason for not doing so must be a Secret.

Of course, he has the Right to Guard this blog as he sees fit.

731 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:49:16pm

re: #730 Occasional Reader

Of course, he has the Right to Guard this blog as he sees fit.

He's the Mennen of the house, so to speak.

732 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:49:28pm

re: #713 subsailor68

Got rid of HBO sadly after "Rome" ended. I can always watch elsewhere though. Thanks for the heads up.

733 J.S.  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:49:36pm

re: #726 Occasional Reader

Exactly. It's into the "thought Crimes were committed here!" terrain.

734 Archimedes  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:49:47pm

re: #705 Kenneth

Is this what you mean?

re: #729 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I think he is content to just let them roll on

I'm Sure you're right. Guard that point well.

735 Archimedes  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:50:30pm

re: #730 Occasional Reader

Of course, he has the Right to Guard this blog as he sees fit.

Okay, I didn't see yours.

736 saberry0530  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:50:57pm

re: #721 UFO TOFU

Is it safe?

JUst keep the volume down. and the laughter

737 J.S.  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:51:02pm

re: #722 redstateredneck

Charles is not an arm or agent of The Government.

738 lawhawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:51:45pm

OT: Poetic justice alert.

Supreme Court denied stay of deportation for alleged Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk.

739 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:51:59pm

re: #731 redstateredneck

He's the Mennen of the house, so to speak.

I think we're all suffering from BO.

740 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:52:08pm

re: #737 J.S.

Charles is not an arm or agent of The Government.

Good thing, too... that would really be the pits. It would make him part of an axila of evil.

741 Kosh's Shadow  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:52:25pm

re: #738 lawhawk

OT: Poetic justice alert.

Supreme Court denied stay of deportation for alleged Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk.

I only wish he could be deported in a cattle car.

742 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:52:59pm

re: #730 Occasional Reader

Of course, he has the Right to Guard this blog as he sees fit.

Tru but he is not so Old and stogy that we can't Spice up the blog a bit.

743 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:53:00pm

re: #727 funky chicken

I double checked the statistic, & I was inaccurate:

6.2 million new cases of sexually transmitted HPV infections are reported every year. At least 20 million people in this country are already infected.

Still pretty high numbers. Also remember that not everybody who has it is a ware they have it.

Thanks for the fact check,

744 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:53:09pm

re: #738 lawhawk

OT: Poetic justice alert.

Supreme Court denied stay of deportation for alleged Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk.

He's exactly like Jesus.

/Buchananthink

745 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:53:36pm

re: #726 Occasional Reader

As I like to point out, the elements that a prosecutor would investigate whether something is a "hate crime", are essentially the same elements that a prosecutor in an unfree regime would investigate to determine whether a political crime was committed. What was the defendant reading? With whom did he speak? What were his opinions?

And THAT should send up serious red flags in one's mind.

Visions of Koestler's Darkness at Noon.

746 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:53:56pm

re: #738 lawhawk

OT: Poetic justice alert.

Supreme Court denied stay of deportation for alleged Nazi death camp guard John Demjanjuk.

Boy this old piece of crud has had more reviews than Stephen King.

747 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:54:22pm

re: #744 Occasional Reader

He's exactly like Jesus.

/Buchananthink

Needs to die for the good of mankind?

/half-sarc

748 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:54:34pm

re: #726 Occasional Reader

the elements that a prosecutor would investigate to determine whether something is a "hate crime",

PIMF

749 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:54:35pm

re: #727 funky chicken

I find that statistic highly questionable, especially if you are talking about the HPV that causes genital warts.

HPVs are a large class of viruses that can cause all kinds of warts.

No way do 50% of American adults have genital wart HPV.

From the FAQ I linked earlier.

How common is "genital HPV"?
The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) has reported that as many as 80 percent of women – and 50 percent of men and women combined – will get a type of genital HPV at some point in their lives. However, most of those infections go away or are suppressed by the body within one to two years, without causing any problems that require treatment.

I don't know the veracity of that source, but it seems to be a common number I see regarding that question. I've seen two sources of it today, and several from other times that I have wondered about HPV and looked for info on it.

750 AMER1CAN  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:54:52pm
6. We support the right of parents to apply for exemptions for their children to be educated.

You left one off the list.

751 KenJen  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:05pm

re: #714 buzzsawmonkey

Hate-crime laws are in essence thought-crime laws. They are value-added criminality on the grounds that Favored Group X has had its feelings hurt.

Assault, intimidation, vandalism, etc., are what they are. Prosecute them as such, to the fullest extent of the law. But start introducing criminality on the grounds of somebody's opinions, and you are going down a very nasty road.

Also, I believe it gives added or extra rights to certain groups and is unconstitutional. Why should a gay man who is assaulted be treated differently from a strait assault victim? Why should an assailant recieve different sentencing based on his/her victims race?

752 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:05pm

re: #740 Occasional Reader

Good thing, too... that would really be the pits. It would make him part of an axila of evil.

That's pretty humerus.....

753 irish rose  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:14pm

Good afternoon, lizards :).

I found this comment today over at View From the Right, and I just have to submit it for the "nutty right-wing comment of the day" designation.

What it really comes down to for Bawer, as well as for Johnson, is that any position short of unqualified support for the homosexual agenda, including homosexual "marriage," makes you evil. The Johnson-Bawer approach would make impossible any alliance between liberals and conservatives in defense of the West against Islam.

Words fail me.

754 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:30pm

Ok, so we've had OR's armpit sex fantasies, a discussion of HVP leading to a scabby penis link... I guess we're ready for this:

Copulating cadavers turn stomachs in Berlin

755 Rancher  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:32pm

Here is a cheery assessment of Pakistan today from VDH:

It is a country whose dozens of poorly supervised nuclear weapons are located a few hours’ drive from al-Qaeda enclaves. Pakistan has no real stable government. It shares a border with Iran. Jihadists are embedded in its intelligence services and army. Corruption has been institutionalized. Large swaths of the country are veritable badlands. Pakistani terrorists are constantly provoking democratic India. This list could easily be doubled.
756 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:55:58pm

re: #741 Kosh's Shadow

I only wish he could be deported in a cattle car.

and take Buchanan with him.

757 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:56:48pm

re: #717 LGoPs

I don't know, would a stage actor be into that stuff? Who knows. I think its the combination of crazy money and lack of any moderating influence in their lives. In the regular world, if you get into something goofy, like some cult or something, your friends/family will tell you you're a nut. If everyone wants a piece of your pie, however, who will have the courage to call you out and risk losing out on the money.

758 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:56:51pm

re: #654 lawhawk

Also, those traveling on Rt 46 in Lodi should take care. There's a VP Biden sighting, as he and Sen. Lautenberg are going to be mugging for the cameras to tout infrastructure repairs.

/Can't they just close the road off and leave those 2 stranded? Without the cameras, they would not know what to do.

It is quieter here now, in southern Westchester, but it could start up again any second, so if I disappear...

/NY Grampa will be so happy. I shut his computer down. ;)

Wow! On newsradio880?*** Storms are now moving into CT, but still some activity in NJ....and we all could get more later.

(***Live pickup)

Flood watches cancelled in most of NJ! Get home safe!

759 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:57:03pm

re: #754 Kenneth

Ok, so we've had OR's armpit sex fantasies, a discussion of HVP leading to a scabby penis link... I guess we're ready for this:

Copulating cadavers turn stomachs in Berlin

But its art.
/

760 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:57:06pm

re: #751 KenJen

Also, I believe it gives added or extra rights to certain groups and is unconstitutional. Why should a gay man who is assaulted be treated differently from a strait assault victim? Why should an assailant recieve different sentencing based on his/her victims race?

Don't believe the ones on the books do work like that. 'Race' and 'sexual orientation' protects both ways. The basic idea may be flawed, but if you get beaten up for being straight, it is a hate crime.

I may be wrong--does anyone know of some that specify only certain groups, rather than categories?

761 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:57:08pm

re: #755 Rancher

Here is a cheery assessment of Pakistan today from VDH:

But did he pronounce it "Pahkeestahn"?

762 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:57:18pm
763 Last Mohican  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:57:42pm

re: #727 funky chicken

No way do 50% of American adults have genital wart HPV.

I think I've seen a figure that 50% of Americans have at some point been infected with HPV.

The prevalence of HPV, i.e. the number of people who have it at any given time, I suppose would be lower. Here are some CDC statistics.

764 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:58:23pm

re: #761 Kenneth

But did he pronounce it "Pahkeestahn"?

Fareed Zakaria is now making fun of that pronunciation.

765 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:58:26pm

re: #754 Kenneth

Ok, so we've had OR's armpit sex fantasies, a discussion of HVP leading to a scabby penis link... I guess we're ready for this:

Copulating cadavers turn stomachs in Berlin

Just another step down the road from that "Bodies" exhibit that went around the world. A society that has forgotten how to have respect for its dead is in big trouble.

766 opnion  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #751 KenJen

Also, I believe it gives added or extra rights to certain groups and is unconstitutional. Why should a gay man who is assaulted be treated differently from a strait assault victim? Why should an assailant recieve different sentencing based on his/her victims race?

That's right. The only determinents once guilt is established is, was there malice aforethought (premeditation) or was it a crime of passion, which would be lesser.

767 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:58:58pm

re: #751 KenJen

Also, I believe it gives added or extra rights to certain groups and is unconstitutional. Why should a gay man who is assaulted be treated differently from a strait assault victim? Why should an assailant recieve different sentencing based on his/her victims race?

Get ready for more of that kind of thinking. Our new 'Constitutional Scholar' (*Spit*) Presidents judicial philosophy supports that very thing......
[Link: www.americanthinker.com...]

768 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:59:13pm

re: #765 Occasional Reader

Just another step down the road from that "Bodies" exhibit that went around the world. A society that has forgotten how to have respect for its dead is in big trouble.

Same guy.

769 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:59:18pm

re: #759 redstateredneck

But its art.
/


But, they are not in a jar of urine, so it is not "great" art

770 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:59:20pm

re: #751 KenJen

Also, I believe it gives added or extra rights to certain groups and is unconstitutional. Why should a gay man who is assaulted be treated differently from a strait assault victim? Why should an assailant recieve different sentencing based on his/her victims race?

Isthmus be wrong to treat people differently.

771 Racer X  Thu, May 7, 2009 12:59:28pm

re: #754 Kenneth


Not ready.

772 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:00:18pm

re: #765 Occasional Reader

Just another step down the road from that "Bodies" exhibit that went around the world. A society that has forgotten how to have respect for its dead is in big trouble.

I don't care if they were "consenting donors". That's just wrong. It trivializes death even more than it's already been trivialized by the culture. The people that go see that shit are freakin' ghouls.

773 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:00:56pm

re: #769 Desert Dog

But, they are not in a jar of urine, so it is not "great" art

true.

774 Desert Dog  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:01:46pm

re: #765 Occasional Reader

Just another step down the road from that "Bodies" exhibit that went around the world. A society that has forgotten how to have respect for its dead is in big trouble.

I saw that exhibit in Las Vegas. It was creepy. My wife asked how they could get bodies in such good condition. She's in the medical biz. All the cadavers she has seen were not in such good condition. I believe they are all Chinese. Gee, I wonder how they got such young and in shape bodies?

775 Occasional Reader  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:01:49pm

re: #770 nikis-knight

Isthmus be wrong to treat people differently.

Your post has no real Bering on this topic.


/okay, we've done this one pretty recently

776 Kenneth  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:01:57pm

re: #765 Occasional Reader

same creep "artist"

777 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:02:20pm

re: #770 nikis-knight

Isthmus be wrong to treat people differently.

Good point.

778 american sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:02:49pm

re: #621 buzzsawmonkey

"Bashing" is physical abuse. "Gay-bashing" refers to people being beaten or otherwise assaulted.

"Gay-baiting" refers to pejorative remarks, or remarks at least perceived as pejorative.

It is one of the political crimes of the gay-rights movement that it has intentionally and systematically equated verbal disagreement with physical violence for 30 years by taking a term formerly used--even by that movement--to refer only to assault, and applying it to verbal disagreement.

You're like a dog with a bone on this aint ya? (Make of that what you will).

I'll be more careful to pick my words more carefully next time, or maybe I should email them to you first for your approval?

779 redstateredneck  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:02:54pm

Off to do some paperwork.
>:-[

780 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:03:39pm

re: #757 Flyers1974

I don't know, would a stage actor be into that stuff? Who knows. I think its the combination of crazy money and lack of any moderating influence in their lives. In the regular world, if you get into something goofy, like some cult or something, your friends/family will tell you you're a nut. If everyone wants a piece of your pie, however, who will have the courage to call you out and risk losing out on the money.

Not only lack of moderating influence but deluged in a flurry of sycophantic worship that would make even a level headed person think they were Solomon. These actors play make believe all day, are surrounded by worshipers that think the sun rises above their heads and then not surprisngly, think they are wise enough to instruct the rest of us on how we should live our lives. Tim Robbins.....Susan Sarandon....are you listening?
Of course not.

781 Spare O'Lake  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:03:48pm

re: #775 Occasional Reader

Your post has no real Bering on this topic.


/okay, we've done this one pretty recently

Schooner than you would like?

782 nikis-knight  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:04:39pm

re: #778 american sabra

You're like a dog with a bone on this aint ya? (Make of that what you will).

I'll be more careful to pick my words more carefully next time, or maybe I should email them to you first for your approval?

If you do, he could arrange them in lyric form for you.
/just teasing Buzz

783 CyanSnowHawk  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:04:53pm

re: #754 Kenneth

Ok, so we've had OR's armpit sex fantasies, a discussion of HVP leading to a scabby penis link... I guess we're ready for this:

Copulating cadavers turn stomachs in Berlin

Those bodies exhibits creep me out.

784 american sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:05:13pm

re: #782 nikis-knight

If you do, he could arrange them in lyric form for you.
/just teasing Buzz

LOL I'm sure!

785 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:06:24pm
786 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:07:15pm

re: #777 Spare O'Lake

Good point.

That sounds good......

787 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:07:47pm

re: #778 american sabra

You're like a dog with a bone on this aint ya? (Make of that what you will).

I'll be more careful to pick my words more carefully next time, or maybe I should email them to you first for your approval?

Words have meanings. Sometimes, the meanings are manipulated by groups for advantage; others pick them up, unknowingly, and advance the cause.

Preserving meaning in the language is a vaccination against ignorance and demagoguery.

788 LGoPs  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:08:24pm

re: #775 Occasional Reader

Your post has no real Bering on this topic.


/okay, we've done this one pretty recently

I sea what you're saying.

789 Creeping Eruption  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:08:38pm

re: #787 OldLineTexan

Words have meanings. Sometimes, the meanings are manipulated by groups for advantage; others pick them up, unknowingly, and advance the cause.

Preserving meaning in the language is a vaccination against ignorance and demagoguery.

/Oh here we go again with the vaccinations.

790 Flyers1974  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:09:52pm

re: #780 LGoPs

In my mind, discussing politics at inappropriate times is boorish, but not crazy. When they join Scientology, etc..., it makes me think they've been driven insane by the factors we've discussed.

791 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:10:46pm

re: #789 Creeping Eruption

Did you like how I worked that in there? I was pretty proud of it, on-topic and all.

/

792 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:15:33pm

re: #762 buzzsawmonkey

In the Seventies the American Psychological Association voted to remove "homosexuality" from its list of "diseases." This showed that the APA and its discipline were, fundamentally, bullshit--nobody votes on whether or not smallpox is a "disease." Homosexual behavior should never have been classed as a "disease"--but the fact that the psychologists could and did vote on whether or not it was showed that their discipline was full of crap. Nonetheless, the gay-rights movement immediately adopted the quasi-scientific label of "phobia" to hurl at their opponents, to silence them by suggesting that their opposition to any initiative was pathological.

what?

793 american sabra  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:15:43pm

re: #787 OldLineTexan

Words have meanings. Sometimes, the meanings are manipulated by groups for advantage; others pick them up, unknowingly, and advance the cause.

Preserving meaning in the language is a vaccination against ignorance and demagoguery.

Please. There was nothing wrong saying bashing v. baiting in the context I used it and know one here read into it any more or less because of it. He's just having the last word.

794 UberInfidel67  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:16:17pm

re: #534 Honorary Yooper

The vaccine has to be given to girls who have not had sex yet. It cannot be given to a girl (or woman for that matter) who has had sex.

No. You are wrong. My daughter was contemplating getting it after a discussion with her gynie. She is not a virgin and the doctor knows this.

795 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:17:55pm
796 OldLineTexan  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:17:57pm

re: #793 american sabra

Please. There was nothing wrong saying bashing v. baiting in the context I used it and know one here read into it any more or less because of it. He's just having the last word.

Enjoy your agenda; I won't stop you. It's (still) a free country.

However, when you post an opinion here, you may get "feedback".

797 NY Nana  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:18:04pm

re: #741 Kosh's Shadow

I only wish he could be deported in a cattle car.

And executed. The f*ing bastards' lawyers are appealing the case to the German courts. I honestly do not think Germany will let him get off.

798 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:18:35pm
799 DaddyG  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:19:45pm

re: #754 Kenneth

Ok, so we've had OR's armpit sex fantasies, a discussion of HVP leading to a scabby penis link... I guess we're ready for this:

Copulating cadavers turn stomachs in Berlin

Without even clicking on the link I'm thinking placing an electrical applience on the edge of the hot tub is a bad idea. /

800 crimeshark  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:29:49pm

I remember some 40 and change years ago, standing in a long, long line with my Mom gripping my hand, determined that no matter how long it took, I would get my polio vaccination. We waited in that line in the sun and eventually made our way down the sidewalk and into the local middle school gym where there were tables set up and nurses and doctors giving out the vaccine. The whole time I was thinking about my Grand Aunt, Rosie, who wore leg braces and giant, oversize shoes with soles 3 inches thick. She walked with two canes back then. By the time she died, she was, of course, confined to a wheelchair. Mom had explained that now they had something so I would not have to get sick, like Aunt Rosie. How I wouldn't have to wear braces or those awful shoes. Most of all, I remember how terribly scared she was when she talked about it. She didn't realize it, but she didn't have to hold my hand. I wasn't about to leave that line. Not for anything. The next day I had sunburn. I didn't care, because I knew I wouldn't get sick. I've lived through the measles, the mumps, chicken pox, even scarlet fever. We had a family doctor back then, a nice old man named Doctor Ward; I never was told his first name. He used to come to the house with his little black bag. I often marvel at all the illnesses I had, and the fact that the children in my family will never have to suffer through them because they were vaccinated. I read these anti-vaccine stories with, well- astonishment. How soon we have forgotten. Forgotten the pain, the sickness, the crippling disability and most of all, the bone-chilling fear. These anti-vaccine types are just insane. Really.

801 n2stox  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:32:04pm

WTF is going on in the world? hey, you don't want to get your kid vaccinations Jenny, then don't. Why the F are you sounding such an alarm? This could be opening up a can of worms of epic proportions, proportions the likes of Jenny cannot even begin to comprehend.

But how in the hell can someone run around and actively campaign against this? I'm getting sick and tired of these people, all with no distinction whatsoever in their chosen "field" telling us "normal folks" how we should be living!

First it was Jane Fonda posing in a NVA AA battery and giving the world national security advice. Then, it's Al Gore giving us his "expertise" on climatology, and now we have Jenny circling the country as some medical/vaccination expert.

I'm getting sick of this crap!

My kid is and will continue to be vaccinated. Maybe these idiots have no clue about small pox, measles, mumps, and all the other stuff that regularly killed of millions of people not that long ago, but I'd really rather not go through that.

I raise my kids how I want to, I live a (for the most part) good, clean life. I don't need to be told how to live, what to drive, how to recycle, where to vacation, what books to read, what movies to see, how to treat my family, how to respect nature.

This movement is going to leave a lot of damaged kids in its wake. And, these people will never have to answer for it.

802 funky chicken  Thu, May 7, 2009 1:58:00pm

re: #269 zebulah

I had whooping cough the winter of 2007-2008. It's a pretty serious disease even for an adult. The Chinese call it a "100-Day Cough" for a reason. And the so-called paroxysms are really scary. They are not like sleep apnea, the experience is more like waterboarding.

I had been vaccinated as a child, but the vaccine wears off. I have read that there is talk of recommending a re-inoculation at the age of 11 or so. Sounds like a good idea to me.

These anti-vax people are out of their minds.

My kids had to get another DTP (or whatever they call it now) to enter middle school here in NV.

I also got them both the meningitis vaccine. There have been several outbreaks of bacterial meningitis, and the vaccine protects against most of the strains that are out there. If they come out with a vaccine against the other two or three strains, my kids will get that shot too.

803 Natasha  Thu, May 7, 2009 2:17:55pm

The anti-vaccination people are ridiculous. They choose to ignore real science that is an argument in favor of vaccinations, and instead believe, without any doubt, in pseudo-science about their alleged dangers. It annoys me even more that certain influential segments of the Republican Party have jumped on this bandwagon of ignorance as well. It really looks like sane people no longer have any representation, since both major parties (and I am not even going to talk about "alternative" parties) appear to have been overrun by kooks. Can we merge the crazies from both sides and just call the result a Cereal Party, i.e. a Party of Nuts and Flakes?

804 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 7, 2009 2:23:38pm

re: #800 crimeshark

I remember some 40 and change years ago, standing in a long, long line with my Mom gripping my hand, determined that no matter how long it took, I would get my polio vaccination. We waited in that line in the sun and eventually made our way down the sidewalk and into the local middle school gym where there were tables set up and nurses and doctors giving out the vaccine. The whole time I was thinking about my Grand Aunt, Rosie, who wore leg braces and giant, oversize shoes with soles 3 inches thick. She walked with two canes back then. By the time she died, she was, of course, confined to a wheelchair. Mom had explained that now they had something so I would not have to get sick, like Aunt Rosie. How I wouldn't have to wear braces or those awful shoes. Most of all, I remember how terribly scared she was when she talked about it. She didn't realize it, but she didn't have to hold my hand. I wasn't about to leave that line. Not for anything. The next day I had sunburn. I didn't care, because I knew I wouldn't get sick. I've lived through the measles, the mumps, chicken pox, even scarlet fever. We had a family doctor back then, a nice old man named Doctor Ward; I never was told his first name. He used to come to the house with his little black bag. I often marvel at all the illnesses I had, and the fact that the children in my family will never have to suffer through them because they were vaccinated. I read these anti-vaccine stories with, well- astonishment. How soon we have forgotten. Forgotten the pain, the sickness, the crippling disability and most of all, the bone-chilling fear. These anti-vaccine types are just insane. Really.

They're not insane. They're sane in the same way a shoplifter is sane. The shoplifter knows that thieving is bad for society. He knows that he gets a benefit for himself by hurting, a little, the rest of the shoppers. But the weaker the penalties for shoplifting, the more we'll see.

When you don't get your own kids vaccinated, you're calculating: there's a little bit of risk to getting vaccinated, and since everybody else is getting vaccinated, I can skip that risk for my own kids and they'll be protected by the herd immunity. (The food is in the grocery store, there for the taking, and because everybody else is paying, the shelves will be stocked whether I pay or not. )

There's even a school of "thought" that holds that it is morally laudable to skip vaccinations, because what sort of monster imposes an unnecessary risk on their own child?

The answer to this must be that the public health authorities have some real authority. (We don't leave it to the conscience of shoppers whether to pay at the checkout, do we?) Vaccinations should be compulsory except when medically counterindicated. By longstanding law and tradition, that's the way it is...or was, until we began to cave to every claptrap claim of "rights" that came down the pike.

805 bald headed geek  Thu, May 7, 2009 2:27:06pm

One word to describe these anti-vaccination people: LUNATICS.

BHG

806 tradewind  Thu, May 7, 2009 2:30:55pm

Oh, dammit! Why can't these people be locked up like any other child abuser? Or at least forced to comply... after all, parents have been court-ordered to give treatment to their children for different illnesses against their misguided will many times. The only exception should be a legitimate medical contraindication, such as allergy, certified by a pediatrician.
Someone needs to disabuse them of the notion that mercury in vaccines has anything to do with this..... there has been no mercury in the preservatives used in childrens' vaccinations for years.
Reminds me of something an Islamofascist would do.

807 ShanghaiEd  Thu, May 7, 2009 2:38:03pm

re: #795 buzzsawmonkey

You heard me.

When does a "disease" need to be voted into, or out of, existence? Only when the people decreeing what a "disease" is are full of it.

I'll take a guess...medicine is complicated and doctors are human and flawed, like the rest of us. You're not going to get 100% agreement always, much less on a subject as politically and psychologically loaded as homosexuality. Considering the options, voting seems like a democratic enough approach, to me. But that's just me.

808 see bs  Thu, May 7, 2009 3:18:31pm

WTF is going on with the world? Has mob mentality really taken over? All the bad & anti-science, the fear mongoring over "swine" flu.

Sigh....

809 Maui Girl  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:02:41pm

I know someone has probably already brought this up, but, if certain of these diseases were "eradicated", where are they coming from now? If they have been eradicated, then there would no longer be a need for the vaccination right? If that's incorrect, then I guess we shouldn't be stating that these diseases have been eradicated.

I had my son vaccinated but only after checking to make sure that the vaccine had been preserved sans mercury-based thimerosal. I don't believe it's the vaccine but rather the preservative that was being used.

He's good, bright as a tack but you cannot deny that there is something in our environment that has increased the incidence of autism from 1 in 10,00 to 1 in 150 kids. I hope soon that they find the connection, whatever it may be.

810 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:03:14pm

re: #299 saberry0530

Karma!

Oldest son goes to the DMV to get drivers license renewed. Opens at 8:00AM, he arrives 7:40AM, 3rd in line. 4th in line is the largest man he has ever seen. Says that he was at least 6'8" or larger 350 to 375 lbs of nothing but muscle. CLock strikes 8 am and just as the door s are starting to open, some 125 lbs guy makes a break for the front of the line. The big guy reaches down and literally picks the guy up by the neck and asks him where does he think he is going. THrows the guy toward the back of the line which now has over 30 people in it and says you need to be at the end. Everyone in line applauded. Son laughed about that the rest of the day.

Heh! Got to love it.

There's one more good thing about living in Alberta. The province "privatized" their DMV services a few years ago, and you can get driver's and/or vehicle licenses at registry agents in just about any little town. The bigger cities have literally dozens of outlets. And instead of having all licenses expire on the same date, they are staggered alphabetically by month. I've rarely had to wait more than 5 or 10 minutes for license renewals since this was implemented, and generally the agencies have chairs available for the few minutes you do have to wait. Most of the time, I just walk in and get served on the spot.

811 Maui Girl  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:04:36pm

re: #808 see bs

Swine flu is also said to be much milder than the seasonal flu that kills upwards of 36,000 in this country every year.

812 Maui Girl  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:07:05pm

re: #810 Alberta Oil Peon

Now if only they could privatize health care up there and stop giving bad ideas to the idiots we have "serving" us here in Congress trying to push universal healthcare.

813 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:08:13pm

re: #343 DaddyG

Pica is the desire to eat dirt. Most common from a lack of iron and other minerals in the diet. It can also be caused by a developmental disorder. Some sufferers did eat paint chips or other dangerous substances.

"Elite", on the other hand, is the compulsion to eat caviar, and truffles.

814 lostlakehiker  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:10:14pm

re: #809 Maui Girl

I know someone has probably already brought this up, but, if certain of these diseases were "eradicated", where are they coming from now? If they have been eradicated, then there would no longer be a need for the vaccination right? If that's incorrect, then I guess we shouldn't be stating that these diseases have been eradicated.

I had my son vaccinated but only after checking to make sure that the vaccine had been preserved sans mercury-based thimerosal. I don't believe it's the vaccine but rather the preservative that was being used.

He's good, bright as a tack but you cannot deny that there is something in our environment that has increased the incidence of autism from 1 in 10,00 to 1 in 150 kids. I hope soon that they find the connection, whatever it may be.

Whatever it is, it's NOT the mercury-using preservative thimerosal. They did eliminate the mercury, and the autism rate, predictably, didn't even hiccup. There's next to zero chance that it has anything whatever to do with vaccines. It isn't necessarily anything in the environment. People are having children later in life, diagnostic standards have changed, and people are more likely to find a mate with similar education and tastes than in earlier days. All these things mean that there could well be a genetic aspect to autism.

There's 100 percent chance that polio will ruin a kid's day. Measles is no fun, and chickenpox, while it is for most children is just a few days' sickness, can progress to shingles. Watch a crying child try to run away from the pain of that, then say again on the merits and demerits of vaccination.

815 leereyno  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:25:54pm

Maybe someone else has already mentioned this, but it seems to me that the only people at risk are those kids who have not been vaccinated.

Kid number one with stupid/ignorant/superstitious parents DIES of a disease that could be easily avoided. Meanwhile kid number 2 whose parents have a modicum of common sense is protected from that illness and does not become sick.

Isn't this just a variation on a Darwin award in which the kid collects the prize instead of the parent?

Let the nimrods exterminate their own offspring, why the hell should I care?

Now obviously the CDC should do everything it can to educate the public about the value of vaccinations and their safety, but that doesn't mean that we as a society should lose sleep because the offspring of stupid people don't live to reproduce.

816 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:27:40pm

re: #518 Nevergiveup

They probably aren't saying, but they most likely have software that does it now.

There's a joke to be made there, but it's not in my job description.

817 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:38:12pm

re: #809 Maui Girl

I know someone has probably already brought this up, but, if certain of these diseases were "eradicated", where are they coming from now? If they have been eradicated, then there would no longer be a need for the vaccination right? If that's incorrect, then I guess we shouldn't be stating that these diseases have been eradicated.

I had my son vaccinated but only after checking to make sure that the vaccine had been preserved sans mercury-based thimerosal. I don't believe it's the vaccine but rather the preservative that was being used.

He's good, bright as a tack but you cannot deny that there is something in our environment that has increased the incidence of autism from 1 in 10,00 to 1 in 150 kids. I hope soon that they find the connection, whatever it may be.

The diseases have not been eradicated. The only disease that has ever been successfully eradicated is smallpox, circa 1980; in this case alone, vaccinations are no longer required. Most disease have several hosts they can infect; smallpox is one of the very, very few that affects only humans, and it's eradication was therefore the simplest to achieve. For others, they will persists as long as there is a population of alternative hosts, no matter how thorough the human vaccination process is.

As for mercury - there is no evidence at all that the mercury-based preservative used in vaccines is in any way linked to autism or to any other illness. A very early, very small study mentioned that there might be a correlation; the results were widely distorted and overblown, and persist even though subsequent studies have shown no such link; the weak correlation found in that single study was a case of sampling error due to the study's small size.

Further, simply because of the wretched amount of misinformation being disseminated over mercury preservatives, they were voluntarily removed from most vaccines several years ago. There has been no change in the rate of autism among children who have received vaccines containing mercury, those that don't contain mercury, and - most importantly - those who received no vaccine at all.

There are piles of fake "studies" purporting to show otherwise that aren't studies at all, but are the wails of shrieking lunatics obsessed over their latest phobia, or intent on pitching their latest money-generating panic. But there is no scientific evidence at all linking vaccination to autism. It's just that simple.

Changes in the rate of autism are due entirely to two factors: increased awareness, and - disturbingly - a broadening of the definition of what constitutes autism to include a much, much wider range of symptoms and behaviors than was used in the past. This does not reflect an actual increase in the rate of incidence; it's just that definitions have changed. Every disease that suddenly comes under the media spotlight undergoes exactly this same artificial "spike" in reported cases; autism is no different.

It would be great to know what causes autism. It would be great to know what causes SIDS, too. But panicking, distorting what is known, lying about what is known and generally ignoring facts while eagerly lapping up garbage psuedo-science peddled by idiots, hucksters and tabloids is not helpful.

818 SixDegrees  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:47:15pm

re: #815 leereyno

Maybe someone else has already mentioned this, but it seems to me that the only people at risk are those kids who have not been vaccinated.

Kid number one with stupid/ignorant/superstitious parents DIES of a disease that could be easily avoided. Meanwhile kid number 2 whose parents have a modicum of common sense is protected from that illness and does not become sick.

Isn't this just a variation on a Darwin award in which the kid collects the prize instead of the parent?

Let the nimrods exterminate their own offspring, why the hell should I care?

Now obviously the CDC should do everything it can to educate the public about the value of vaccinations and their safety, but that doesn't mean that we as a society should lose sleep because the offspring of stupid people don't live to reproduce.

Not quite; see above for more detail, but the short version is: no vaccine is 100% effective. A great deal of the efficacy of vaccination comes from changing the disease environment so susceptible individuals are scattered sparsely throughout the population, instead of all clustered together allowing contagion to take place. This is called the "herd effect"; living in a population with high, but not perfect, immunity reduces the chances of those who are partially immune as well as those more fully immune from catching the disease. So non-participation has a detrimental effect on everyone if it climbs beyond the low-single-digit percent range. And thanks to anti-vax morons (and sheer laziness), that rate is now as high as 25% in several areas.

As for the deaths of children too young to make an informed decision about their own health and well-being when their parents make the wrong decision being somehow deserving of their fate, you need to examine yourself if you belief that this is a good thing, or a desirable thing, or even just a thing you don't care about. Your humanity would seem to be in jeopardy.

You also need to examine your understanding of intelligence and it's link with heredity, which is by no means robust. As much as many people really want to believe otherwise, preventing stupid people from reproducing will not shift the intelligence of the resulting population over toward the "smarter" end of the spectrum. Sorry, but it just doesn't work that way.

819 zoidberg  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:47:41pm
"or other reasons of conscience."


Or lack thereof.

820 Alberta Oil Peon  Thu, May 7, 2009 4:51:19pm

re: #679 DaddyG

Our daughters get it. Even if they are pure as the driven snow until the day of their marriage there is no guarantee they will never come into contact with a spouse who has been exposed to HPV.

Let's face it. If the HPV vaccine reduces the risk of cervical cancer, even nuns should get it. Because, unfortunately, all women are at some risk of being raped. Rape is an evil crime, but it would only compound the evil for a rape victim to subsequently die from a disease contracted from her assailant.

821 hopperandadropper  Thu, May 7, 2009 5:07:55pm

I do think we need to think about, and conduct research on, the age at which children are vaccinated. Right now in the US, the assumption seems to be "the earlier the better". That's true if there is no possibility of adverse affects from vaccination. However, there is clearly a potential immune/inflammatory component to autism and possibly to ADHD. Brain development continues for years after birth, and it might actually be better to wait until kids are older before giving them some vaccines (that's not the same as saying they should not be vaccinated).

822 [deleted]  Thu, May 7, 2009 6:18:19pm
823 shortshrift  Thu, May 7, 2009 6:38:17pm

re: #644 ladycatnip

The anti-vaccine bandwagon has travelers of many political stripes.
Religious conservatives in Oklahoma, "alternative lifestyle" liberals in California.
See this link.

824 Pygmalienation  Thu, May 7, 2009 7:51:11pm

re: #19 lawhawk

It's the "gee, it sounds good it must be true..." mentality that is pervasive in our society--and it really seems to be getting a lot worse as we embark on the 21st Century. Very sad, really

825 nomorelies  Thu, May 7, 2009 8:46:48pm

Re: vaccinations
My daughter was born March 4, 1967 (first child). In August, 1967, she received her second DPT shot. Six days later she collapsed with her eyes jerking back in her head and lost the ability to crawl, sit up and ultimately to swallow. Her injection spot on her leg was large and hot. She spent weeks in the hospital and ultimately had to be tube fed and had a tracheotomy because her cerebellum was destroyed. She died April 6, 1969. I don't have to get on the bandwagon. I've lived through it. There are and have been and will always be bad batches of vaccines. I will never get over the loss of my daughter. She really was a beautiful, smart and fantastic little baby. Started crawling when she only weighed 13 pounds at the age of 4 1/2 months. Vaccines can kill. You never know until it happens to you.

826 ladycatnip  Thu, May 7, 2009 10:52:43pm

#825 nomorelies

I'm sorry for your loss.

827 Yashmak  Fri, May 8, 2009 7:28:33am

re: #822 buzzsawmonkey


Yes, medicine is complicated. But any field that has to vote on what is or is not a disease is not medicine, but witchdoctoring.

Makes me wonder how many other syndromes, conditions, and/or diseases were simply voted into being as well.

828 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Fri, May 8, 2009 9:46:27am

My 11 year old son showed his first signs of autism within a week of his MMR triple shot when he was 18 months old. All language disappeared and his eye contact vanished.

Lots of people say that just isn't the case. I say, they weren't there.

829 Charles Johnson  Fri, May 8, 2009 3:19:29pm

re: #825 nomorelies

I'm very sorry for your loss.

Yes, vaccines can very rarely cause reactions like you describe. But that's not what's under discussion here. This thread is about people who are advocating not having children vaccinated because they believe it causes autism -- and the fact is that this claim has been proven false beyond any doubt, by study after study.

830 MagnaniomousCoward  Sat, May 9, 2009 4:35:58pm

Kirstie Alley's twitter:

I am mostly against vaccines for children..of course there are exceptions in different locations..my children are not vaccinated


well, OK so she is slightly balanced:

But check out BOTH sides of the issue..and remember...the people against mandatory vaccinations DON'T make money from them


Uhm, no. The anti vaccination people want to make money from lawsuits.

831 MagnaniomousCoward  Sat, May 9, 2009 4:42:10pm

And let's not forget the
- research grant fraud
- "alternative" ineffective treatments being hawked through press releases about the vaccination scare
- media deals

Many sources of potential income for anti-vaccine dopeys.


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