The Unveiling of Ardipithecus

Science • Views: 2,204

Carl Zimmer has a great post at The Loom on the historic announcement this week of the discovery of Ardipithecus: We Meet At Last.

At first, Ardipithecus ramidus was yet another scrappy pre-Lucy fossil. The first report offered details about part of a 4.4 million-year-old jaw bone–a remarkable jaw bone, but just a jaw bone nonetheless. Soon after, White’s team found more fossil bones, from the hominid’s hand, skull, pelvis, feet, and on and on–110 pieces all told. But finding these pieces was just the start of the team’s labors. They picked away at the bits of rocks surrounding the fragile bits of fossils. They used a computer to manipulate CT-scans of the fossils to figure out how crushed fragments had originally fit together as a skull or a pelvis.

All this happened in strict secrecy. Some of us science writers knew a little about what the scientists were up to, but we could only guess when they’d finally finish working on the fossil. Sometimes when I’d speak to White, I’d inquire, and he’d politely say he wasn’t done yet.

Looking at the papers out today in Science, you can see that they’ve been very busy. I won’t even try to offer an all-encompassing account of their new results. In many cases, it wouldn’t actually be worth the effort, because these papers are just the first salvo in what will be a fascinating debate about how our ancestors evolved. I was speaking to University of Wisconsin paleoanthropologist John Hawks yesterday on another subject, and he was giddy about the papers’ imminent publication. “Tomorrow’s Christmas!” he said. (His young son overheard him on the phone and got very excited and confused. I had to give Hawks a few minutes to explain the nature of metaphor. Not sure how well that went over.)

UPDATE at 10/4/09 10:01:08 am:

The young earth creationists at Answers in Genesis, of course, accuse the scientists of being “attention seekers” and dismiss the Ardipithecus fossil out of hand.

Without having a live “Ardi” to observe, scientists will only ever be able to come to probabilistic conclusions about its characteristics. As far as we’re concerned, the evolutionary “threat” to creationists from Ardi is no more than that posed by Ida: viz., none.

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252 comments
1 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:48:25am
2 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:49:13am

re: #1 spinmore

Charles doesn't like that... did you read the rules above...

"Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!""

3 [deleted]  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:49:19am
4 spinmore  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:50:25am

re: #2 Walter L. Newton

Charles doesn't like that... did you read the rules above...

"Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, "First!""


My bad.

5 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:51:33am

Once again, we see the devilish nature of evolution - this time being used to disappoint a young child and his innocent faith in Santa Claus.

6 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:52:29am

re: #4 spinmore

My bad.

Did you happen to see this message when you tried to post your comment?

'Comments that only say FIRST! annoy the lizard army, and will be deleted. Ignore this warning and your account may be blocked.'

7 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:53:47am

From the photo on the cover of Science, I gotta say that those bones don't look to be much like "smithereens" at all. Compared to the grotty bits a lot of fossil hunters wind up working with, this specimen is remarkably intact and complete.

And yet, the wailing has already begun, aimed at people who will never read anything but their Bible and their church bulletin.

8 spinmore  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:55:04am

re: #6 Charles
I didn't - I am pressing my 'reset' button. Sorry.

9 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 9:58:06am

re: #7 SixDegrees

From the photo on the cover of Science, I gotta say that those bones don't look to be much like "smithereens" at all. Compared to the grotty bits a lot of fossil hunters wind up working with, this specimen is remarkably intact and complete.

And yet, the wailing has already begun, aimed at people who will never read anything but their Bible and their church bulletin.

It may have looked more smithereeny before they went to work. These guys are amazing with the jigsaw puzzles and the smashed vases.

10 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:01:18am

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

It may have looked more smithereeny before they went to work. These guys are amazing with the jigsaw puzzles and the smashed vases.

The IDiots hustled out a press release just after the announcement of the find, claiming the fossil was "crushed to smithereens" in a lame attempt to discredit it. I wasn't able to find a picture of it until this one, and it looks to be in fine shape as near as I can tell.

11 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:02:59am

re: #5 Cato the Elder

Can you translate this sign? It's from Spencer's speech in Germany. "Separation is right?"

12 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:03:29am

The Answers in Genesis dimwits simply dismiss the fossil evidence as just another case of glory hound scientists, seeking attention: [Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

Without having a live “Ardi” to observe, scientists will only ever be able to come to probabilistic conclusions about its characteristics. As far as we’re concerned, the evolutionary “threat” to creationists from Ardi is no more than that posed by Ida: viz., none.

13 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:04:19am

re: #12 Charles

Heh.

14 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:04:23am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Can you translate this sign? It's from Spencer's speech in Germany. "Separation is right?"

Sarrazin is however right (Sarrazin hat aber Recht)

15 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:05:10am

re: #10 SixDegrees

The IDiots hustled out a press release just after the announcement of the find, claiming the fossil was "crushed to smithereens" in a lame attempt to discredit it. I wasn't able to find a picture of it until this one, and it looks to be in fine shape as near as I can tell.

I was looking at the comments on Hot Air. Someone started the ineveitable "why don't we ever see half-ape, half-human skeletons", to which another, brighter Luftmensch responded "Well, what does THIS look like to you?"

16 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:05:43am

re: #14 Walter L. Newton

What does Sarrazin mean? Is it a name?

17 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:05:52am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Can you translate this sign? It's from Spencer's speech in Germany. "Separation is right?"

The sign refers to this disgusting story: Weber Says Sarrazin Comments ‘Damaged’ Bundesbank’s Reputation.

Oct. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Bundesbank President Axel Weber said board member Thilo Sarrazin damaged the bank’s reputation with disparaging remarks about Berlin’s Turkish and Arab communities and “underclass” children.

“Dr Sarrazin distanced himself from his comments and clearly this apology was necessary and appropriate,” Weber told reporters today in Istanbul, where he’s attending a Group of Seven meeting. Asked if Sarrazin should resign from the Bundesbank, Weber replied: “It’s not about people, it’s about institutions. The Bundesbank’s reputation has been damaged.”

Pressure on Sarrazin to step down is mounting as Berlin police review his remarks to determine whether to open a formal criminal probe. His comments may amount to the offence of inciting the public, a hate crime under German law, Berlin police spokesman Michael Gassen said on Oct. 1.

In an interview with Berlin-based journal “Lettre International” published last week, Sarrazin said: “40 percent of births in Berlin are underclass births” promoted by welfare payments, and “our educated population is getting dumber each generation.”

Germany’s capital city of 3.4 million people has “a large number of Arabs and Turks” who “have no productive function except selling fruit and vegetables,” he said, adding the city should admit only “highly qualified” immigrants.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:06:05am

re: #12 Charles

The Answers in Genesis dimwits simply dismiss the fossil evidence as just another case of glory hound scientists, seeking attention: [Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

"La La La LA LA LA LA. We won't hear you."

19 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:06:10am

re: #9 SanFranciscoZionist

It may have looked more smithereeny before they went to work. These guys are amazing with the jigsaw puzzles and the smashed vases.

And that's exactly where the morons will start their attack. "They could have put it together to make it look like Michelangelo's David or a rhinoceros if they'd wanted to."

Problem is, you take a smashed Greek krater and have an expert put it back together, you get a krater. Not an oinoche or a pyxis.

And the Ardi reconstruction process, I'm sure, was arduous and exhaustively documented.

Not that that will stop the morons.

20 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:06:53am

re: #12 Charles

The Answers in Genesis dimwits simply dismiss the fossil evidence as just another case of glory hound scientists, seeking attention: [Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

In other words: "La La La La!!! I can't hear you!!!" with hands clamped firmly over ears and eyes screwed shut.

21 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:06:55am

re: #12 Charles

There is a fossil carving group of artists that scientists have hired. The same group that makes "crop circles".

22 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:07:11am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

What does Sarrazin mean? Is it a name?

The head of Germany's central bank said Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin should resign after the former Berlin finance senator said ...

"The head of Germany’s central bank said Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin should resign after the former Berlin finance senator said the city's Arab and Turkish populations had no productive function and had too many children."

[Link: www.thelocal.de...]

23 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:07:55am

re: #18 SanFranciscoZionist

"La La La LA LA LA LA. We won't hear you."

GMTA.

24 KronoGhazi  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:08:05am

re: #12 Charles

The Answers in Genesis dimwits simply dismiss the fossil evidence as just another case of glory hound scientists, seeking attention: [Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

They essentially said that it's just smashed to bits and took them 12 years to 'figure out' how to put it back together, why so long?

It's Fallacy Riot Shotgun with Double Odd Reaching Buck Shot rounds.

25 SpiraMirabilis  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:08:09am
Without having a live “Ardi” to observe, scientists will only ever be able to come to probabilistic conclusions about its characteristics. As far as we’re concerned, the evolutionary “threat” to creationists from Ardi is no more than that posed by Ida: viz., none.


Just like with dinosaurs -- we can't hope to ever learn anything about them because they're all dead. They're dragons!

26 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:09:52am

re: #17 Charles

Ah, ok, That makes sense.
They also took pics of the counter protesters. Europe for all?
There's another one that I don't have a link to that says something about freedom of religion.

27 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:10:05am

re: #25 SpiraMirabilis

Just like with dinosaurs -- we can't hope to ever learn anything about them because they're all dead. They're dragons!

BTW, someone told me recently that there's a theory that the Cyclops legend might have grown from Mediterranean peoples finding mammoth skulls. Thought that was interesting.

28 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:11:28am

NFL Players earing pink gloves and accessories today in solidarity withthe cause of fghting breast cancer. Nice

29 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:11:39am

re: #22 Walter L. Newton

"The head of Germany’s central bank said Bundesbank board member Thilo Sarrazin should resign after the former Berlin finance senator said the city's Arab and Turkish populations had no productive function and had too many children."

Funny, since "Sarrazin" happens to be an Old French word for "Saracen". I wonder if he's a self-hating Muslim?

30 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:12:14am

Awesome articles. Thank you Charles. =)

31 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:13:27am

re: #12 Charles

The Answers in Genesis dimwits simply dismiss the fossil evidence as just another case of glory hound scientists, seeking attention: [Link: www.answersingenesis.org...]

You can't reason people out of an opinion that they were never reasoned into. Can't argue with an epiphany.

32 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:14:12am

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Funny, since "Sarrazin" happens to be an Old French word for "Saracen". I wonder if he's a self-hating Muslim?

That's the first thing I noticed about the name.

33 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:14:47am

re: #28 _RememberTonyC

NFL Players earing pink gloves and accessories today in solidarity withthe cause of fghting breast cancer. Nice

Awww. At the school I work at, we're planning to put some pink decals on our players. One of the team's mom is very sick, and we want to give him all the support we can.

34 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:15:01am

Not sarcasm, just a great traditional song by a great traditional singer. Our Appalachian-born members will appreciate:

Youtube Video
35 What, me worry?  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:15:50am

I really liked the teeth discussion in the article. Fascinating!

Canine teeth in some primate species get honed into sharp daggers that males can use as weapons in battles for territory and for the opportunity to mate with females.

Being an owner of many cats, you see this during mating. When a male mounts a female, he bites her at the back of the neck to hold her down. Is this what he's referring to above?

Men have stubby canines, which many scientists take as a sign that the competition between males became less intense in our hominid lineage. That was likely due to a shift in family life. Male chimpanzees compete with each other to mate with females, but they don’t help with the kids when they’re born.

The male [Ardipithecus] teeth turn out to be surprisingly blunted. This result suggests that hominids shifted away from a typical ape social structure early in our ancestry.

The science blows my mind.

36 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:15:52am

re: #28 _RememberTonyC

NFL Players earing pink gloves and accessories today in solidarity withthe cause of fghting breast cancer. Nice

All October, IIRC...

Save the TaTa's!

37 jaunte  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:16:16am

"Apologetics Press" is satisfied that Ardipithecus is nothing that will cause them to change their preconceptions:

While Ardipithecus ramidus kadabba undoubtedly will stir controversy among evolutionists as to exactly where it fits into the “evolutionary family tree,” it does little to answer the questions of “how apes became human,” or when and why these creatures became bipedal. Given the small measurements of the fossilized bones collected, kadabba is very likely to find itself relegated to the same branch as the infamous Lucy (Australopithecus afarensis)—simply a fossilized ape.[Link: www.apologeticspress.org...]

38 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:16:27am

re: #17 Charles

Germany’s capital city of 3.4 million people has “a large number of Arabs and Turks” who “have no productive function except selling fruit and vegetables,” he said, adding the city should admit only “highly qualified” immigrants.

Reminds me of the Irish saying: "If you are a gentleman and I am a gentleman, who will milk the cow?"

39 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:16:39am

re: #34 ryannon

Now heah the wud of da lawd!

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:17:43am

re: #34 ryannon

Not sarcasm, just a great traditional song by a great traditional singer. Our Appalachian-born members will appreciate:



That's a good tune.

41 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:18:16am

re: #37 jaunte

"Apologetics Press" is satisfied that Ardipithecus is nothing that will cause them to change their preconceptions:

Yup - all they see is two new gaps.

42 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:18:37am

re: #32 Walter L. Newton

That's the first thing I noticed about the name.

Here's an old song from the Crusades. The Berlin Turks ought to go sing it outside Thilo Sarrazin's office, just to make his head explode with irony.

Chanterai por mon corage
Que je vueill reconforter,
Car avec mon grant damage
Ne quier morir n'afoler,
Quant de la terre sauvage
Ne voi nului retorner
Ou cil est qui m'assoage
Le cuer, quant j'en oi parler.
Dex, quant crieront Outree,
Sire, aidiés au pelerin
Por cui sui espoentee,
Car felon sunt Sarrazin.
Soferrai en tel estage
Tant quel voie rapasser.
Il est en pelerinage,
Dont Dex le lait retorner !
Et maugré tot mon lignage
Ne quier ochoison trover
D'autre face mariage ;
Folz est qui j'en oi parler !
Dex, quant crieront Outree,
Sire, aidiés au pelerin
Por cui sui espoentee,
Car felon sunt Sarrazin.
De ce sui au cuer dolente
Que cil n'est en Biauvoisis
Qui si sovent me tormente :
Or n'en ai ne gieu ne ris.
S'il est biaus, et je sui gente.
Sire, Dex, por quel feïs ?
Quant l'uns a l'autre atalente,
Por coi nos as departis ?
Dex, quant crieront Outree,
Sire, aidiés au pelerin
Por cui sui espoentee,
Car felon sunt Sarrazin.
De ce sui en bone atente
Que je son homage pris,
Et quant la douce ore vente
Que vient de cel douz païs
Ou cil est qui m'atalente,
Volontiers i tor mon vis :
Adont m'est vis que jel sente
Par desoz mon mantel gris.
Dex, quant crieront Outree,
Sire, aidiés au pelerin
Por cui sui espoentee,
Car felon sunt Sarrazin.
De ce sui mout decüe
Que ne fui au convoier ;
Sa chemise qu'ot vestue
M'envoia por embracier :
La nuit, quant s'amor m'argue,
La met delez moi couchier
Mout estroit a ma char nue
Por mes malz assoagier
Dex, quant crieront Outree,
Sire, aidiés au pelerin
Por cui sui espoentee,
Car felon sunt Sarrazin.

I will sing to comfort my heart,
For I do not want to die
Or go mad from my great loss,
When I see that no one returns
From that foreign land,
Where the man is who
Brings solace to my heart
When I hear him spoken of.
God, When they cry 'Onward'
Give Your help to that pilgrim
For whom my heart trembles,
For the saracens are treacherous.
I shall bear my loss
Until I have seen a year go by,
He is on a pilgrimage;
May God grant that he return from it!
But, in spite of all my family,
I do not intend to marry any other.
Anyone who even speaks to me of it
Is a fool.
God, When they cry 'Onward'
Give Your help to that pilgrim
For whom my heart trembles,
For the saracens are treacherous.
However, I am hopeful
Because I accepted his homage.
And when the sweet wind
Blows which comes from that sweet country
Where is the man whom I desire,
Then I turn my face toward it gladly,
And it seems to me that I can feel him
Beneath my mantle of fur.
God, When they cry 'Onward'
Give Your help to that pilgrim
For whom my heart trembles,
For the saracens are treacherous.
I regret very much that I was not there
To set him on the road.
He sent me his shirt which he had worn,
So that I might hold it in my arms.
At night, when love for him tormets me,
I place it in bed beside me
And hold it all night against my bare skin
To assuage my pains.
God, When they cry 'Onward'
Give Your help to that pilgrim
For whom my heart trembles,
For the saracens are treacherous.

43 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:18:45am

re: #35 marjoriemoon

I really liked the teeth discussion in the article. Fascinating!


The science blows my mind.

It sounds to me as though he means that the teeth were useful in battles between males for access to females, but I'm not sure.

44 What, me worry?  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:18:48am

re: #35 marjoriemoon

I really liked the teeth discussion in the article. Fascinating!

The science blows my mind.

Oh, I would also add that cats not only bite as a part of mating, but also bite as a sign of domination. My alpha male has long been fixed, but occasionally he will mount and bite our younger male cats when junior needs to be taught a lesson on who's boss.

45 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:19:10am

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Can you translate this sign? It's from Spencer's speech in Germany. "Separation is right?"

Any details on Spencer's German activities?

46 What, me worry?  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:19:25am

re: #43 SanFranciscoZionist

It sounds to me as though he means that the teeth were useful in battles between males for access to females, but I'm not sure.

Hmmm didn't think of that.

47 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:01am

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a good tune.

But when I saw 'Dry Bones', I assumed it would be the song about Ezekiel, and the jaw bone connecting to the head bone.

48 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:03am

re: #35 marjoriemoon

I really liked the teeth discussion in the article. Fascinating!

The science blows my mind.

That reminds me - I have to check with my dentist about having some baboon incisors cosmetically bonded. I figure it'll help cement my alpha status at work, and also impress the ladies.

49 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:20am

re: #45 Cato the Elder

Not really. Crazy Pam posted some pics. Most of the stuff is in German.

50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:25am

re: #34 ryannon

I assumed you had played this...

51 What, me worry?  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:38am

re: #48 SixDegrees

That reminds me - I have to check with my dentist about having some baboon incisors cosmetically bonded. I figure it'll help cement my alpha status at work, and also impress the ladies.

rofl oh baby baby!

52 Locker  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:52am

re: #48 SixDegrees

That reminds me - I have to check with my dentist about having some baboon incisors cosmetically bonded. I figure it'll help cement my alpha status at work, and also impress the ladies.

You could just put a sock in your pants...

53 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:20:57am

re: #47 SanFranciscoZionist

Me too...

54 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:21:17am

re: #52 Locker

You could just put a sock in your pants...

IN THE FRONT!

55 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:21:31am

re: #52 Locker

You could just put a sock in your pants...

Pants?

56 Locker  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:22:07am

re: #55 SixDegrees

Pants?

Ok correction...

You could just put a sock in your tutu...

57 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:22:26am

re: #40 SanFranciscoZionist

That's a good tune.

Damn good.

And those images come rolling off like a series of 'naive' (stylistically speaking) religious art.

58 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:22:48am

I wonder if anybody knows of a historical analogue to our present case where scientific knowledge is being regressively suppressed from the public by religious hostility? We are actually less aducated in some ways as a nation now then we were 50 years ago...and that is alarming for our prospects of producing competent engineers, chemists, biologists and so on.

59 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:24:07am

re: #58 celticdragon

I wonder if anybody knows of a historical analogue to our present case where scientific knowledge is being regressively suppressed from the public by religious hostility? We are actually less aducated in some ways as a nation now then we were 50 years ago...and that is alarming for our prospects of producing competent engineers, chemists, biologists and so on.

Try around 300 C.E. and the creation of the church catholic.

60 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:24:25am

re: #50 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I assumed you had played this...

That's what I was expecting as well. I like the other piece, though. Never heard it before.

61 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:25:05am

re: #58 celticdragon

I wonder if anybody knows of a historical analogue to our present case where scientific knowledge is being regressively suppressed from the public by religious hostility? We are actually less aducated in some ways as a nation now then we were 50 years ago...and that is alarming for our prospects of producing competent engineers, chemists, biologists and so on.

The Luddite Rebellion is the only thing that even comes close, although that wasn't religious in nature and wasn't widespread.

62 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:25:17am

re: #58 celticdragon

I wonder if anybody knows of a historical analogue to our present case where scientific knowledge is being regressively suppressed from the public by religious hostility? We are actually less aducated in some ways as a nation now then we were 50 years ago...and that is alarming for our prospects of producing competent engineers, chemists, biologists and so on.

Yes. It was called the fall of Rome and the ensuing Dark Ages.

I know it's a generalization, but all historical analogies are generalizations anyway. It still gives you an idea.

63 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:25:43am

re: #48 SixDegrees

That reminds me - I have to check with my dentist about having some baboon incisors cosmetically bonded. I figure it'll help cement my alpha status at work, and also impress the ladies.

Screw incisors! I'm going for the bonded wolf canines, upper and lower.

Then I'm going to go to a Sarah Palin book signing and just stand there smiling at her.

64 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:25:44am

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Ouch. That drew blood.

65 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:27:55am

re: #63 Cato the Elder

Screw incisors! I'm going for the bonded wolf canines, upper and lower.

Then I'm going to go to a Sarah Palin book signing and just stand there smiling at her.

Time for a death match.

66 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:28:04am

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Try around 300 C.E. and the creation of the church catholic.

Eh? Give me more details. It's not my understanding that the Church had any particular hostility to science at that moment. Paganism, yes.

67 jaunte  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:28:35am

re: #58 celticdragon

This site has a pretty good outline:
[Link: www.positiveatheism.org...]

68 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:28:46am

Some pretty cool stagecraft...
Dinosaurs - in the realm of giants (Ensemble) at german TV-Show Wetten dass...!?

Liveleak Video
69 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:28:48am

re: #63 Cato the Elder

Screw incisors! I'm going for the bonded wolf canines, upper and lower.

Then I'm going to go to a Sarah Palin book signing and just stand there smiling at her.

We'll contribute to your defense fund.

70 Altermite  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:28:49am

re: #58 celticdragon

I wonder if anybody knows of a historical analogue to our present case where scientific knowledge is being regressively suppressed from the public by religious hostility? We are actually less aducated in some ways as a nation now then we were 50 years ago...and that is alarming for our prospects of producing competent engineers, chemists, biologists and so on.

Not religious, but ideological has occured in the past. Russia's biology/genetics is just now recovering from their heritage of Lysenko, despite having been a leader in the field right up until his ascendance.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:30:56am

In general, I'm not sure the Dark Ages analogy works. I suppose that if the Church had absolutely dedicated itself to preserving practical science, it would have made a difference, but the Fall of Rome wasn't something that could really have been prevented by the religious community, and they found themselves facing a politically and socially crumbling world.

72 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:30:59am

re: #65 SixDegrees

Time for a death match.

Well I guess you weren't talking about incisors, were you? Incisors are the front teeth. Those are canines we're comparing, whether wolf or baboon.

I choose wolf because I like my teeth a little whiter than those things in your picture.

After I'm done scaring Palin, I'm gonna go visit Walter and actually bite him for his anti-Catholicism. The Pope said I could.

73 Westward Ho  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:31:11am

I am stunned that these YEC morons find it easier to beleive that Man was created in his current form by Magic! How do they account for the light from distant stars? I am sure that they do not beleive in nucleosynthesis either and they beleive all matter was created in its current form by Magic. Pre scientific bumpkins.

74 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:31:21am

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Eh? Give me more details. It's not my understanding that the Church had any particular hostility to science at that moment. Paganism, yes.

Given that science really didn't exist then (and wouldn't, arguably, until the 16th century) I'd have to wonder just what it was the Church was suppressing, too.

75 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:31:46am

re: #73 Westward Ho

Civility matters.

76 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:32:11am

re: #72 Cato the Elder

Well I guess you weren't talking about incisors, were you? Incisors are the front teeth. Those are canines we're comparing, whether wolf or baboon.

I choose wolf because I like my teeth a little whiter than those things in your picture.

True enough. And it's all about size, not color, small-tooth.

77 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:32:53am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

In general, I'm not sure the Dark Ages analogy works. I suppose that if the Church had absolutely dedicated itself to preserving practical science, it would have made a difference, but the Fall of Rome wasn't something that could really have been prevented by the religious community, and they found themselves facing a politically and socially crumbling world.

Don't try to put reason and historical truth in the way of Walter's clichés.

78 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:33:05am

re: #66 SanFranciscoZionist

Eh? Give me more details. It's not my understanding that the Church had any particular hostility to science at that moment. Paganism, yes.

I am talking about the general "darkness" that came as the christian religion developed into a strongly organized institution. I wasn't talking about a organized "program" against science.

79 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:33:25am

re: #62 Summer

Yes. It was called the fall of Rome and the ensuing Dark Ages.

I know it's a generalization, but all historical analogies are generalizations anyway. It still gives you an idea.

The loss of knowledge in Rome during the Dark Ages was due to a huge combination of interior and exterior factors...but not really what I was getting after. I'm talking about the deliberate, self inflicted ignorance of much of the population where untestable religious certainty outweighs empiricism in increasing amounts over time. Not through a time of imperial collapse and invasion, but during prosperity and readily available educational resources.

I can't really think of anything like it. We are literally, as a nation, making ourselves more superstitious, less educated and overtly proud of our ignorance. The kicker is that technology is being used to spread teh dumb...

80 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:33:49am

re: #73 Westward Ho

I am stunned that these YEC morons find it easier to beleive that Man was created in his current form by Magic! How do they account for the light from distant stars? I am sure that they do not beleive in nucleosynthesis either and they beleive all matter was created in its current form by Magic. Pre scientific bumpkins.

The problem is that they're not pre-scientific, they're modern people deliberately rejecting facts because they aren't appealing.

81 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:34:29am

re: #49 Killgore Trout

Not really. Crazy Pam posted some pics. Most of the stuff is in German.

Let me know if it needs sifting.

Not that Spencer cares what his associates say, even in English.

82 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:35:15am

re: #78 Walter L. Newton

I am talking about the general "darkness" that came as the christian religion developed into a strongly organized institution. I wasn't talking about a organized "program" against science.

Concurrent events, not causative events, I would argue. It wasn't the Church's fault that the civilized world keeled over.

83 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:35:53am

re: #79 celticdragon

The loss of knowledge in Rome during the Dark Ages was due to a huge combination of interior and exterior factors...but not really what I was getting after. I'm talking about the deliberate, self inflicted ignorance of much of the population where untestable religious certainty outweighs empiricism in increasing amounts over time. Not through a time of imperial collapse and invasion, but during prosperity and readily available educational resources.

I can't really think of anything like it. We are literally, as a nation, making ourselves more superstitious, less educated and overtly proud of our ignorance. The kicker is that technology is being used to spread teh dumb...

I agree - there really is no precedent for this, historically or otherwise.

84 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:35:59am

re: #82 SanFranciscoZionist

Concurrent events, not causative events, I would argue. It wasn't the Church's fault that the civilized world keeled over.

Ok.

85 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:36:09am

re: #45 Cato the Elder

Any details on Spencer's German activities?

Spencer posted about it -- claimed there were no Nazis, nope, none at all, no, I repeat, no Nazis.

And he even got in a slam at "stateside libelbloggers." I wonder who he meant by that?

However, they may have kept their extremists well hidden for this event (after the last debacle with pro-Koln blew up in their faces), but the BPE is affiliated with Vlaams Belang. In 2007 their former leader Udo Ulfkotte was one of the organizers of the "Stop the Islamization of Europe" protest in Belgium, in which the VB participated: Udo Ulfkotte.

Ulkotte heads Pax Europa[5], a German right wing organization. Pax Europa and Ulfkotte were a driving force behind a protest in Brussels, Belgium on September 11, 2007 titled "Stop the Islamization of Europe"

They're working hard these days at concealing all the connections.

86 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:36:44am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

In general, I'm not sure the Dark Ages analogy works. I suppose that if the Church had absolutely dedicated itself to preserving practical science, it would have made a difference, but the Fall of Rome wasn't something that could really have been prevented by the religious community, and they found themselves facing a politically and socially crumbling world.

No I suppose I wasn't talking about repression by religious authorities inasmuch as just loss of culture and scientific reason due to many different factors.

Whatever the reason, the result would be the same, I think.

87 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:37:53am

re: #85 Charles

I may have to volunteer some time sifting and translating. I'm sure the organizers are only Englishing the "safe" stuff.

88 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:37:59am

My new grandson's name is Shalom Yehezkiel

89 sagehen  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:39:07am

re: #79 celticdragon

I'm talking about the deliberate, self inflicted ignorance of much of the population where untestable religious certainty outweighs empiricism in increasing amounts over time. Not through a time of imperial collapse and invasion, but during prosperity and readily available educational resources.

I can't really think of anything like it. We are literally, as a nation, making ourselves more superstitious, less educated and overtly proud of our ignorance. The kicker is that technology is being used to spread teh dumb...

Copernicus and Gallileo got into all kinds of trouble with the church; is that the sort of thing you're looking for? (in 1992, Pope John Paul II finally admitted publicly that Gallileo was right).

90 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:39:24am

re: #79 celticdragon

The loss of knowledge in Rome during the Dark Ages was due to a huge combination of interior and exterior factors...but not really what I was getting after. I'm talking about the deliberate, self inflicted ignorance of much of the population where untestable religious certainty outweighs empiricism in increasing amounts over time. Not through a time of imperial collapse and invasion, but during prosperity and readily available educational resources.

I can't really think of anything like it. We are literally, as a nation, making ourselves more superstitious, less educated and overtly proud of our ignorance. The kicker is that technology is being used to spread teh dumb...

You know what I would actually point to, come to think of it?

Pakistan.

Fifty years ago, most people went to school and learned real things. Now they go to madrassas and learn...well, we know what they learn now.

Fifty years ago they still had British common law affecting their daily lives. Now they have Shari'a.

91 Westward Ho  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:40:28am

Philosophic naturalism is the greatest gift of western civilization without that we would still be subscribing to the demonic theory of diseases amongst other intellectual atrocities.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:41:26am

re: #86 Summer

No I suppose I wasn't talking about repression by religious authorities inasmuch as just loss of culture and scientific reason due to many different factors.

Whatever the reason, the result would be the same, I think.

Except that, as celticdragon and I have been saying in different ways, there's a difference between losing ground due to war, disaster, etc., and what American anti-science types do, which is shamelessly, with all possible resources at their disposal, reject science as opposed to faith. Even as they reap the benefits it gives to their society. That's a unique, and very arrogant, form of crazy.

93 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:42:22am

Sesame Street: Feist sings 1,2,3,4

Youtube Video
94 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:42:33am

re: #88 Alouette

My new grandson's name is Shalom Yehezkiel

We'll meet back here in twenty years and celebrate his chuppah!

95 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:42:41am

re: #91 Westward Ho

Philosophic naturalism is the greatest gift of western civilization without that we would still be subscribing to the demonic theory of diseases amongst other intellectual atrocities.

See my #90. =)

And I agree. And I also try to never argue this sort of historical question because somebody will always take a different general viewpoint and the original point will be lost. =)

I was just making a point that whatever the reason, it'll be the dark ages if these people win out. That's all I'm saying. =)

96 jaunte  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:43:41am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

Except that, as celticdragon and I have been saying in different ways, there's a difference between losing ground due to war, disaster, etc., and what American anti-science types do, which is shamelessly, with all possible resources at their disposal, reject science as opposed to faith. Even as they reap the benefits it gives to their society. That's a unique, and very arrogant, form of crazy.

I'm sure they make a distinction between their own 'micro-arrogance' and evolutionists' 'macro-arrogance.'

97 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:46:41am

re: #89 sagehen

Copernicus and Gallileo got into all kinds of trouble with the church; is that the sort of thing you're looking for? (in 1992, Pope John Paul II finally admitted publicly that Gallileo was right).

Not entirely true. See Dava Sobel's Galileo's Daughter for a detailed examination of this issue. The Church happily granted Galileo permission to publish his theories; in Two New Sciences, Galileo cast the Pope as a simpleton, thinly disguised as one of the characters, and also applied the Papal imprimatur to work that hadn't yet received approval. It wasn't so much Galileo's assault on Aristotelian dogma (not religion) that was at issue as his poking the Pope in the eye with a sharp stick that rankled the Church.

The Church never denied that Galileo was right; it's apology in 1992 was for the Church's poor treatment of him.

The Man of Science versus Ignorant Religious Leaders tale is largely mythical. The real story is far more complex and nuanced.

Sobel's book comes highly recommended, along with any of her other works.

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:46:43am

re: #89 sagehen

Copernicus and Gallileo got into all kinds of trouble with the church; is that the sort of thing you're looking for? (in 1992, Pope John Paul II finally admitted publicly that Gallileo was right).

That's certainly closer, but the Church screwing up on Galileo still didn't involve coercing the average guy on the streets of Pisa to reject commonly accepted scientific truths.

Maybe Spain, post-reconquista, would be a little closer. There's an eighteenth-century Spanish doctor's writing where he complains that when people know you're a doctor, they assume you have Jewish blood, and they treat you with suspicion. That seems close to what we're talking about--a suspicion about the existing science of the day, based on religious ideology.

99 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:47:45am

I have to wonder how many of the right-wing blogs that are ripping up on Charles are Creationist blogs? It just blows me away that it seems so incredibly entrenched in our society at this point. Was it really most of the Republican party? I mean, outside of evangelical circles, was it that much part of the mainstream?

100 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:51:11am

re: #99 Summer

I have to wonder how many of the right-wing blogs that are ripping up on Charles are Creationist blogs? It just blows me away that it seems so incredibly entrenched in our society at this point. Was it really most of the Republican party? I mean, outside of evangelical circles, was it that much part of the mainstream?

If I were a black Christian, right now, I would be on an absolute tear trying to convince churches that we absolutely have to encourage young people to respect science and seek careers in it. I've talked about it on this blog, but a couple years ago I was blown away when I realized that a number of my students had absorbed through their religious communities that science=evolution=not believing in God. To be totally rejected, therefore.

As a total outsider, it seems like a very weird fight for me to get involved in. If any lizard is a black Christian, and would like to take this up, please, feel free!

101 jaunte  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:51:12am

re: #99 Summer

You should take a look at Jeff Sharlet's book The Family about the hidden elite side of American fundamentalism; it has some interesting answers to that question.
[Link: www.amazon.com...]

102 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:52:24am

one of the dangers of craziness becoming mainstream is that those who stray from the reservation are demonized. and sometimes in response, the dissenters (those demons!) feel the need to overcompensate in order to CLEARLY distance themselves from the creeps. and a consequence of this situation is that we sometimes fail to heed the good advice of an intellectually honest "rightie." One such man is Victor Davis Hanson. And here is his clearheaded take on "44."

[Link: www.victorhanson.com...]

103 bj  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:52:51am

Somebody needs to inform those people that Bereshit (Genesis) is not a science book, it is not about science, does not support science or scientific findings, prophecies and ideology. Oy! Get an education.

104 Dan G.  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:57:04am

re: #103 bj

Reading is teh hard.

/

105 lostlakehiker  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:57:27am

re: #38 The Sanity Inspector

Reminds me of the Irish saying: "If you are a gentleman and I am a gentleman, who will milk the cow?"

Berlin is not dairy country. As the skill set of its citizenry frays, its economy fades. The man in charge of the finances is staring the consequences in the face and pointing them out.

Theodore Dalrymple has had much to say on the topic of the rising tide of ignorance (and crime) in Britain. There, it's not the immigrants, but the indigenous population, that is leading the way to a dimmer future. He notes that education in Britain has fallen to the point that many cognitively normal adults don't know their times tables, not even up to 3 times 4.

There are real economic consequences to a sustained and significant downtrend in the educational achievements of a population.

Britain cannot do anything about its problem with immigration policy. Berlin could. Both places might think about whether a welfare culture has anything to do with their trend. It's something that could be put to a more or less scientific test: do nations and cities that expect more in the way of self-reliance also experience this downtrend? Are there instances of nations and cities that have a long-standing generous welfare state, but that have not experienced such trends?

106 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:58:11am

re: #99 Summer

I have to wonder how many of the right-wing blogs that are ripping up on Charles are Creationist blogs? It just blows me away that it seems so incredibly entrenched in our society at this point. Was it really most of the Republican party? I mean, outside of evangelical circles, was it that much part of the mainstream?

A LOT of right wing bloggers are creationists. In fact, I'd be willing to bet it's the majority.

In fact, a very large number of (former) LGF commenters were creationists as well. A few years ago, anyone who dared to defend the theory of evolution in LGF threads would be piled on, insulted, and abused by the creationist factions. There were a LOT of them.

And yes, almost every top GOP politician is either a creationist, or pretends to be a creationist in order to avoid alienating the religious right. ALL of the top evangelists in America are creationists, without exception -- even the so-called "progressive" evangelist, Rick Warren.

107 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:58:37am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

There was a time, in the recent past, when science was gladly accepted by the religious. The church apologized to a long dead Galileo, and no one tried to say that the sun revolved around the earth, or that the earth was flat.
I remember when the left was for free trade, and the right against it.
There was a time when we taxed imported goods and kept the governments hands out of citizens' pockets.
There was a time,(oh how I long for it!) when facts were not considered to be verifiable based on the outcome of their ramifications, or their political correctness, but upon whether they were true, or not, and if they could be tested.

We seem to be going backwards into the future.

108 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 10:58:53am

re: #105 lostlakehiker

Berlin is not dairy country. As the skill set of its citizenry frays, its economy fades. The man in charge of the finances is staring the consequences in the face and pointing them out.

Theodore Dalrymple has had much to say on the topic of the rising tide of ignorance (and crime) in Britain. There, it's not the immigrants, but the indigenous population, that is leading the way to a dimmer future. He notes that education in Britain has fallen to the point that many cognitively normal adults don't know their times tables, not even up to 3 times 4.

There are real economic consequences to a sustained and significant downtrend in the educational achievements of a population.

Britain cannot do anything about its problem with immigration policy. Berlin could. Both places might think about whether a welfare culture has anything to do with their trend. It's something that could be put to a more or less scientific test: do nations and cities that expect more in the way of self-reliance also experience this downtrend? Are there instances of nations and cities that have a long-standing generous welfare state, but that have not experienced such trends?

A new dark ages beckons...

109 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:00:20am

re: #89 sagehen

Copernicus and Gallileo got into all kinds of trouble with the church; is that the sort of thing you're looking for? (in 1992, Pope John Paul II finally admitted publicly that Gallileo was right).

Copernicus and Gallileo were introducing something new that challenged long held societal religious assumptions. I fully expect resistance in that case. What we have now is actual regression. Evolution was not seriously contested nationally in 1955. Anybody doing so would have been dismissed as a crank. Now, MSM sources seem compelled to treat ID as a legitimate source of controversy.

Summer's observation on Pakistan seems very close to what we see here, but it is also contemporaneous. I am wondering if the rapid nature of change we see globally now is producing a backlash to pre-scientific modes of thinking? A security blanket of faith? Beats me. I'll stick with geology...but I confess that I am deeply troubled by the trend we saw exemplified with Palin and the celebration of know-nothing ignorance and cultural grievance.

The message was loud and clear: "Real Americans" don't go to elite schools and study un-Christian things. Joe Six Pack stuff should be good enough for anybody. Of course, Sarah didn't start that trend by any means. She was merely the latest huckster to cater to it. That it exists at all is bad enough, but it seems to be picking up steam in certain corners, especially the set who home school but also try to pack school boards with ignorant charlatans.

110 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:02:19am

The irony behind the utter bollocks spouted by the Discovery Institute and other creationist organizations about "Ardi" is that even if we had not a single fossil on record, the evidence for evolution would still be absolutely overwhelming. This is a point that Dawkins makes several times in his new book, and it's one that the creationists should wake up to. So, the branch on which they're sitting while making their fatuous arguments about crushed bones was sawn off several years ago.

111 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:03:39am

re: #99 Summer

I have to wonder how many of the right-wing blogs that are ripping up on Charles are Creationist blogs? It just blows me away that it seems so incredibly entrenched in our society at this point. Was it really most of the Republican party? I mean, outside of evangelical circles, was it that much part of the mainstream?

I've been amazed, as well. Truly. I have to wonder if people just don't know what it is they are signing onto with the "creationist" stuff.

In Louisiana, the 2008 regular session of the legislature passed, and the Governor signed, the "Louisiana Science Education" bill. Sounds nice. Except it provides that teachers may use supplemental materials to "critique" scientific theories.

There are a number of sponsors on the bill; this may not be true everywhere, but I checked these folks out, and they are about half and half Rep and Dem. This thing went through with very little notice in the local media.

112 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:04:07am

re: #109 celticdragon


The message was loud and clear: "Real Americans" don't go to elite schools and study un-Christian things. Joe Six Pack stuff should be good enough for anybody.

I was in a sauna recently where a discussion of how expensive higher education has become was going on. At the mentioned of Harvard and Yale, one older guy said "well yeah...those are LIBERAL schools". He shut right up when I pointed out that the last president went to both.

113 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:05:23am

re: #111 reine.de.tout

I've been amazed, as well. Truly. I have to wonder if people just don't know what it is they are signing onto with the "creationist" stuff.

In Louisiana, the 2008 regular session of the legislature passed, and the Governor signed, the "Louisiana Science Education" bill. Sounds nice. Except it provides that teachers may use supplemental materials to "critique" scientific theories.

There are a number of sponsors on the bill; this may not be true everywhere, but I checked these folks out, and they are about half and half Rep and Dem. This thing went through with very little notice in the local media.

reine ... thanks for sticking up for me yesterday ...

114 Dan G.  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:05:28am

re: #112 bratwurst

Muhahaha!

115 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:06:44am

re: #108 Walter L. Newton

A new dark ages beckons...

Why does he look so righteous while your face is so changed
Are you frightened of the box you keep him in
While his genocide fools and his friends rearrange
Their religion of the little ten women
That backs up their views but your face is so bruised
Come out, the dark is just beginning!

- Bob Dylan, 'Can You Please Crawl Out Your Window', 1965

116 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:09:00am

re: #111 reine.de.tout

I've been amazed, as well. Truly. I have to wonder if people just don't know what it is they are signing onto with the "creationist" stuff.

In Louisiana, the 2008 regular session of the legislature passed, and the Governor signed, the "Louisiana Science Education" bill. Sounds nice. Except it provides that teachers may use supplemental materials to "critique" scientific theories.

There are a number of sponsors on the bill; this may not be true everywhere, but I checked these folks out, and they are about half and half Rep and Dem. This thing went through with very little notice in the local media.

The reason why that Louisiana bill received bi-partisan support is because it was very deceptively written, to conceal its creationist intent as much as possible. It's based on a model bill promoted by the Discovery Institute that use lots of positive-sounding buzzwords like "academic freedom." Who could be against that? And given that most legislators don't even read the bills on which they vote, it's pretty clear that a lot of them simply said, "Academic freedom? That sounds good," and voted yes.

117 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:09:44am

re: #110 John Neverbend

The irony behind the utter bollocks spouted by the Discovery Institute and other creationist organizations about "Ardi" is that even if we had not a single fossil on record, the evidence for evolution would still be absolutely overwhelming. This is a point that Dawkins makes several times in his new book, and it's one that the creationists should wake up to. So, the branch on which they're sitting while making their fatuous arguments about crushed bones was sawn off several years ago.

Not that they will ever notice. I like this quote:

"Debating creationists on the topic of evolution is rather like trying to play chess with a pigeon; it knocks the pieces over, craps on the board, and flies back to its flock to claim victory."

- Scott D. Weitzenhoffer

118 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:10:09am

Internet tech question: Suppose hypothetically I wanted to watch the programs on Channel 4 which are only available to those in the UK. I tried some proxy servers but they don't work.

119 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:10:49am

And the creationists in Louisiana are now starting to move to capitalize on their win, by making it difficult for parents and teachers to report and question the teaching of creationism in science classrooms. It's going to end up in court eventually.

120 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:10:59am

re: #117 celticdragon

What an amazing quotation. I'm writing it down for posteriority (sic).

121 SpaceJesus  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:11:12am

richard dawkins comic

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

122 jaunte  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:12:35am

The Curmudgeon has a lot of details (via Barbara Forrest) on what's going on in Louisiana:

Barbara’s article and press release are required reading for those interested in science education. Don’t be misled into thinking that Louisiana is a small, hopelessly backward state, and what happens there is of no importance elsewhere. That state is being used as a testing ground for a nationwide theocratic effort to literally undo the Enlightenment. If the creationists’ schemes to reverse the progress of the last ten generations are successful in Louisiana, they’ll be deployed elsewhere. So pay attention.[Link: sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com...]

123 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:13:27am

Ravens player being strapped to board and into ambulance in Foxboro ...

Hope he is OK

124 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:14:48am

re: #106 Charles

A LOT of right wing bloggers are creationists. In fact, I'd be willing to bet it's the majority.

In fact, a very large number of (former) LGF commenters were creationists as well. A few years ago, anyone who dared to defend the theory of evolution in LGF threads would be piled on, insulted, and abused by the creationist factions. There were a LOT of them.

And yes, almost every top GOP politician is either a creationist, or pretends to be a creationist in order to avoid alienating the religious right. ALL of the top evangelists in America are creationists, without exception -- even the so-called "progressive" evangelist, Rick Warren.

I know, but that's what is so shocking to me. I read a lot of those blogs for a few years before all this happened, and I guess they just didn't talk about it much or something. I just never realized they were so truly insane as that.

It honestly is shocking to find out that most of them are. That is what blows me away.

125 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:16:29am

re: #16 Killgore Trout

What does Sarrazin mean? Is it a name?

I noticed you "quoted" a comment by me, with a question.

Don't let that happen again :)

(peace)

126 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:19:31am

re: #111 reine.de.tout

Sounds nice. Except it provides that teachers may use supplemental materials to "critique" scientific theories.

Excellent. I look forward to hearing about the critiques of quantum theory that are going to be taught in Louisiana...Of course, this isn't going to happen. It's ironic that there is plenty of material that would be relevant to a critique of quantum mechanics, arguably an equally successful theory to neo-Darwinism. There are three points to note, however:

1. The critique is way above the level of any high school and probably most undergraduates.
2. It's genuinely scientific.
3. It doesn't have anything to do with religion, and doesn't try to sneak one group's religious beliefs through the back door into a science discussion where it doesn't belong.

For all the reasons above, particularly 3., I doubt if the Louisiana schools will include this in their curriculum.

127 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:19:39am

the GOP needs mature adults more than ever. and if the GOP platform continues to stress the "pro life/pro choice" issue as a top priority, they'll get few indepents to sign up. they can still favor pro life causes, and on a local or regional level, they can have some more extreme candidates. But the GOP cannot let that issue be a dealbreaker for good national GOP candidates. Because they're screwed if they continue down that road.

128 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:19:46am
Without having a live “Ardi” George Washington to observe ... how do we know he existed?

Fixed that for them

129 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:20:11am

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Internet tech question: Suppose hypothetically I wanted to watch the programs on Channel 4 which are only available to those in the UK. I tried some proxy servers but they don't work.

You might want to try this: considering that it's freeware, it's been getting high marks. I don't know if it will get you where you want to go in the UK, but nothing ventured...

[Link: www.hotspotshield.com...]

130 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:23:29am

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Internet tech question: Suppose hypothetically I wanted to watch the programs on Channel 4 which are only available to those in the UK. I tried some proxy servers but they don't work.

Have you tried putting extra tin foil on the TV's rabbit ear antenna?
/

131 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:23:54am

re: #121 spacejesus

richard dawkins comic

[Link: richarddawkins.net...]

I like the bicycle. The concept of educational bullets is spot on, although why a bullet should make a sound like "shittang" is a mystery to me.

132 Summer Seale  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:24:12am

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Fixed that for them

LOL.. You're dead on. =)

Anyone who reads that site would come away thinking that the science of Forensics is all made up and nobody should ever go to jail on anything less than personal testimony of guilt. =)

Also, since we've never seen protons or electrons, how would we know how they act and respond?

Seriously, they're just total idiots. =)

133 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:24:41am

re: #106 Charles

In fact, a very large number of (former) LGF commenters were creationists as well. A few years ago, anyone who dared to defend the theory of evolution in LGF threads would be piled on, insulted, and abused by the creationist factions. There were a LOT of them.

Didn't know that. (Wasn't reading those things then.) Thanks for the info.

134 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:24:53am

re: #129 ryannon

I was just reading up on the topic. With the TV license stuff in the UK they protect it pretty well. Most people just go to torrents but that's not really worth the effort for me. I was just curious.

135 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:24:54am

re: #123 _RememberTonyC

Ravens player being strapped to board and into ambulance in Foxboro ...

Hope he is OK

Extremities were moving. Looked like he got his neck pushed back into his spine

Prayfully it's a precaustion

136 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:25:52am

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Fixed that for them

What evidence do you have that Australia exists (or any other country that you haven't visited, if you've visited Australia)? This is a serious question, not that I'm suggesting that Australia does not exist.

137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #136 John Neverbend

Because of Mick Dundee...

138 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:28:48am

re: #136 John Neverbend

What evidence do you have that Australia exists (or any other country that you haven't visited, if you've visited Australia)? This is a serious question, not that I'm suggesting that Australia does not exist.

OMG!
I've never been in Britain, but I HAVE been in Fwance!
I'M DOOMED!

139 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:29:38am

re: #137 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Because of Mick Dundee...

Yes, that's one piece of evidence.

140 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:30:16am

re: #134 Killgore Trout

I was just reading up on the topic. With the TV license stuff in the UK they protect it pretty well. Most people just go to torrents but that's not really worth the effort for me. I was just curious.

The torrents are as easy as falling off a log, Killgore:

(1) [Link: www.utorrent.com...]

(2) [Link: thepiratebay.org...]

141 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:31:03am

re: #125 Walter L. Newton

You've got (or soon will have ) mail

142 John Neverbend  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:31:09am

re: #138 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OMG!
I've never been in Britain, but I HAVE been in Fwance!
I'M DOOMED!

Well, you could always visit next year.

143 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:31:11am

re: #138 pre-Boomer Marine brat

OMG!
I've never been in Britain, but I HAVE been in Fwance!
I'M DOOMED!

I've never been to Spain...

144 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:31:41am

re: #128 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Fixed that for them

For some reason this sparked in my mind a picture of a live George Washington, in a recreated eighteenth-century room behind glass. He's behaving beautifully, of course, but keeps giving scientists on the other side of the glass sharp looks, trying to figure out what the hell is happening here.

145 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:31:57am

re: #141 sattv4u2

You've got (or soon will have ) mail

Oh shit, what did I do wrong now?

146 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:32:23am

re: #144 SanFranciscoZionist

For some reason this sparked in my mind a picture of a live George Washington, in a recreated eighteenth-century room behind glass. He's behaving beautifully, of course, but keeps giving scientists on the other side of the glass sharp looks, trying to figure out what the hell is happening here.

LOL!

147 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:32:28am

re: #145 Walter L. Newton

Oh shit, what did I STILL do wrong now ?

ftfy!

//

148 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:33:10am

re: #142 John Neverbend

Well, you could always visit next year.

(Be still my heart)

149 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:34:14am

re: #135 sattv4u2

Extremities were moving. Looked like he got his neck pushed back into his spine

Prayfully it's a precaustion


hopefully so ... working today?

150 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:35:26am

re: #147 sattv4u2

ftfy!

//

Ok, I hope I get it before I leave for the theatre, work beckons soon. I have my own domain, but the email server at the hosting company is as slow as anything I have ever seen. I've seen it take an hour before it get the mail into my "box."

151 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #140 ryannon

The torrents are as easy as falling off a log, Killgore:

(1) [Link: www.utorrent.com...]

(2) [Link: thepiratebay.org...]

Heh, I messed around with them before but couldn't really figure it out. I got a little spooked about not really knowing what I downloading so I stopped trying to figure it out. I had a hard time finding the torrents I wanted. Maybe I'll take the time to figure it out someday.

152 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:36:26am

re: #149 _RememberTonyC

hopefully so ... working today?

Yup

half a dozen NFL games going to Europe
Brewers/ Cardinals in HD and standard def
an all day (weekend, really) Mormon conference on 5 different birds
NasCar
Indy Car

typical Sunday here !

153 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:36:55am

re: #150 Walter L. Newton

Ok, I hope I get it before I leave for the theatre, work beckons soon. I have my own domain, but the email server at the hosting company is as slow as anything I have ever seen. I've seen it take an hour before it get the mail into my "box."

No problem. Nothing urgent

Get back to me when you can

154 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:38:00am

re: #153 sattv4u2

No problem. Nothing urgent

Get back to me when you can

You did use my NEW email address (as from the link to my web page) and not the old Comcast one, yes?

155 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:38:47am

re: #152 sattv4u2

Yup

half a dozen NFL games going to Europe
Brewers/ Cardinals in HD and standard def
an all day (weekend, really) Mormon conference on 5 different birds
NasCar
Indy Car

typical Sunday here !


late one last night with the dodgers clincher ... got to bed at 4:30am today

156 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:39:18am
Without having a live “Ardi” to observe, scientists will only ever be able to come to probabilistic conclusions about its characteristics. As far as we’re concerned, the evolutionary “threat” to creationists from Ardi is no more than that posed by Ida: viz., none.

What's interesting is how these are the same people clamoring for transitional fossils, and then when they're presented, turn their noses up at them.

157 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:39:40am

re: #151 Killgore Trout

Heh, I messed around with them before but couldn't really figure it out. I got a little spooked about not really knowing what I downloading so I stopped trying to figure it out. I had a hard time finding the torrents I wanted. Maybe I'll take the time to figure it out someday.

Same here, until I discovered the links I posted.

158 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:39:50am

re: #154 Walter L. Newton

You did use my NEW email address (as from the link to my web page) and not the old Comcast one, yes?

I dunno ,,, used you @ cross the bow

159 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:40:37am

If one is having a hard time finding the torrent he wants, perhaps he should consider buying a house.

160 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:41:35am

re: #156 Sharmuta

What's interesting is how these are the same people clamoring for transitional fossils, and then when they're presented, turn their noses up at them.

In other words, these fossils are refusing to transition?

161 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:41:39am

re: #155 _RememberTonyC

late one last night with the dodgers clincher ... got to bed at 4:30am today

Great life we have, huh?
24/7
365

I've only had a Thankgsgiving with my family twice in tha last 11 years

Thank God for Swansons Frozen Turkey Dinners!
/

162 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:42:10am

re: #158 sattv4u2

I dunno ,,, used you @ cross the bow

Ok, got it.

163 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:43:53am

re: #156 Sharmuta

What's interesting is how these are the same people clamoring for transitional fossils, and then when they're presented, turn their noses up at them.

Look at that skeleton, and tell me it doesn't look about halfway between a modern human and a big ape. I thought that was what they were waiting for!

164 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:45:47am

re: #161 sattv4u2

Great life we have, huh?
24/7
365

I've only had a Thankgsgiving with my family twice in tha last 11 years

Thank God for Swansons Frozen Turkey Dinners!
/


We serve humanity. We bring joy to the masses. And since I'm a Judeo-Lizard, I volunteer to work Christmas every year and ask for Thanksgiving as my payback. That works for both of my families: home and work.

165 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:45:50am

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

Look at that skeleton, and tell me it doesn't look about halfway between a modern human and a big ape. I thought that was what they were waiting for!

Yep, they're absolutely waiting for proof that they were descended from big apes.

/

166 ryannon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:47:24am

re: #165 ryannon

Yep, they're absolutely waiting for proof that they were are descended from big apes.

/

167 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:48:17am

re: #164 _RememberTonyC

We serve humanity. We bring joy to the masses. And since I'm a Judeo-Lizard, I volunteer to work Christmas every year and ask for Thanksgiving as my payback. That works for both of my families: home and work.

Good on you

I usually get every other Christmas Day off, so it's not that bad

168 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:50:43am

"no evidence of traditional fossils"

It's the objection which matters.
They don't give a hang about transitional fossils themselves.
The argument could be any of a zillion others, as far as they're concerned.

169 zuckerlilly  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:51:30am

re: #29 Cato the Elder

Funny, since "Sarrazin" happens to be an Old French word for "Saracen". I wonder if he's a self-hating Muslim?

Yes and no. The name also refers to crusaders who had attended a crusade and came back. They too were called "Sarazenen".

Thilo Sarrazin is a social democrat btw. (SPD)

And yes, there are problems with unemployment of immigrants:

[Link: www.morgenpost.de...]

170 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:52:43am

re: #163 SanFranciscoZionist

It kind of pisses me off to see the disdain for which they hold Ardi and Ida. The chances of finding a primate fossil are slim as it is, and that we'd even find these girls is amazing by itself. That so much of them would be found is more amazing yet, and Ida is the most amazing of all- nearly complete and with soft tissue preserved in the rock- just incredible. But you know, I don't think these folks are impressed by evidence anyways. They have none to offer themselves, so that which is provided needs to be shunned so science and faith can be equal in their eyes.

171 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:53:43am

re: #156 Sharmuta

What's interesting is how these are the same people clamoring for transitional fossils, and then when they're presented, turn their noses up at them.

There are no transitional fossils. each and every one is unique.
or
They are all transitional fossils. Each and every one goes from the preceding species to its descendant.
or
"We have these cases and cases of transitional fossils, but we're not allowed to show them!
or
"All the transitional fossils are fake, except for this 400 year old fossilized human brain!"

I like claim 2.
Claim 3 shows that even the evolutionists can be disingenuous.

172 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:54:07am

re: #167 sattv4u2

Good on you

I usually get every other Christmas Day off, so it's not that bad

When I'm doing schedules and have to assign people to work on the holidays, it can be dicey.

173 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:55:14am

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

174 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:55:51am

Justin Verlander saving the Detroit Tigers' asses today!

175 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:56:15am

re: #172 _RememberTonyC

When I'm doing schedules and have to assign people to work on the holidays, it can be dicey.

Tell me about it. We only have 5 operators. Someone has to be on the board at all times. Anytime we do an NFL game someone else has to be here dedicated just to them.

176 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:56:45am

re: #170 Sharmuta

It kind of pisses me off to see the disdain for which they hold Ardi and Ida. The chances of finding a primate fossil are slim as it is, and that we'd even find these girls is amazing by itself. That so much of them would be found is more amazing yet, and Ida is the most amazing of all- nearly complete and with soft tissue preserved in the rock- just incredible. But you know, I don't think these folks are impressed by evidence anyways. They have none to offer themselves, so that which is provided needs to be shunned so science and faith can be equal in their eyes.

No, so faith can dominate science.

177 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:56:46am

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?


Moussavi is having a woody over this.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:58:15am

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

I don't think it changes anything. Lots of Persians have some Jewish ancestry. If he's embarassed by his, it may explain the 'more Shia than thou' approach, but as a crazy old lady in my childhood apartment building used to say "insight will get you absolutely nowhere".

179 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:58:42am

re: #175 sattv4u2

Tell me about it. We only have 5 operators. Someone has to be on the board at all times. Anytime we do an NFL game someone else has to be here dedicated just to them.


The NFL is America's secular "religion." You can screw up a Twins HD signal, but mess up an NFL game and you are toast.

180 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:59:12am

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

Interesting, but I suspect that's a photoshop.
Something doesn't look right about the lighting, and light angles.

181 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:01:14pm

re: #177 _RememberTonyC

Moussavi is having a woody over this.

Yazdi must be having a cow.

182 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:01:18pm

Interesting.

The video of Frank Gaffney spreading "Obama's a sekrit Moslem!" conspiracy theories has been pulled down from YouTube for "terms of use violation." I was going to post it and discovered it was gone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

183 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:03:18pm

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

Well it means;
"The jews are running Iran" could possibly be corrrect


A small list;
Thilo Sarrazin
George Wallace
Michelle Malkin
*dolf *itler

Can you see a pattern?

184 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:03:52pm

re: #179 _RememberTonyC

The NFL is America's secular "religion." You can screw up a Twins HD signal, but mess up an NFL game and you are toast.

I wish. We have a ZERO Human Error tolerance policy here at work. (routing the wrong source to the wrong destination,,, coming up on satellite at the incorrect frequency or polarity,,, not dropping off of satellite on time,,, etc) End of year review is heavily weighted on that alone

185 Gus  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:06:34pm

The creationist response over at "Answers in Genesis" is rather revealing. It is as if though they see every advance in evolutionary findings may or may not be seen as a threat to their superstitious beliefs. The recent discussion of Ardipithecus wasn't brought forth to "counter" creationism but to serve the science of evolution and paleontology itself. These sciences exist with no concern and in spite of the creationists, palm readers, and astrologists.

186 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:06:39pm

re: #184 sattv4u2

I wish. We have a ZERO Human Error tolerance policy here at work. (routing the wrong source to the wrong destination,,, coming up on satellite at the incorrect frequency or polarity,,, not dropping off of satellite on time,,, etc) End of year review is heavily weighted on that alone


you run a tight ship! I will ask for a ":15 approx" so you don't send my next live shot to hash if I'm 30 secons heavy.

187 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:07:34pm

re: #182 Charles

Interesting.

The video of Frank Gaffney spreading "Obama's a sekrit Moslem!" conspiracy theories has been pulled down from YouTube for "terms of use violation." I was going to post it and discovered it was gone.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

What is "terms of use violation" most likely to mean in this case?
(I don't know anything at all about YouTube's.)
Is it likely to relate to copyright, et cetera, or to the subject itself?

188 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:09:26pm

re: #187 pre-Boomer Marine brat

What is "terms of use violation" most likely to mean in this case?
(I don't know anything at all about YouTube's.)
Is it likely to relate to copyright, et cetera, or to the subject itself?

The video was an amateur video shot at the Take Back America conference -- not a clip from any news show. I strongly suspect that one of the people in the video complained to YouTube and had it removed, but I can't know for sure.

189 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:10:48pm

re: #188 Charles

The video was an amateur video shot at the Take Back America conference -- not a clip from any news show. I strongly suspect that one of the people in the video complained to YouTube and had it removed, but I can't know for sure.

Thanks. Could explain a lot (though it sounds possibly "suspicious")

190 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:12:10pm

re: #186 _RememberTonyC

you run a tight ship! I will ask for a ":15 approx" so you don't send my next live shot to hash if I'm 30 secons heavy.

it's happened!

Then we get the calls for the client "but MY clock says it's ,,, ",,, or" I didn't know. Couldn't you have stayed up on the satellite just for e few more minutes?"

191 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:12:40pm

re: #188 Charles

The video was an amateur video shot at the Take Back America conference -- not a clip from any news show. I strongly suspect that one of the people in the video complained to YouTube and had it removed, but I can't know for sure.


i watched the pat condell clip on his web site ... if you decide to post it, heads may explode.

192 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:13:20pm

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

193 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:15:20pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

it's happened!

Then we get the calls for the client "but MY clock says it's ,,, ",,, or" I didn't know. Couldn't you have stayed up on the satellite just for e few more minutes?"

I thought the broadcast industry uses clocks which are traceable (calibration-wise) to the atomic clocks -- NIST, et cetera. Is someone out there using his/her Timex?

194 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:15:28pm

re: #191 _RememberTonyC

i watched the pat condell clip on his web site ... if you decide to post it, heads may explode.

The latest Condell vid I saw, it looked like he had drank 4 cups of coffee and stubbed his toe just prior.
Still made a few good points.

195 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:16:30pm

re: #190 sattv4u2

it's happened!

Then we get the calls for the client "but MY clock says it's ,,, ",,, or" I didn't know. Couldn't you have stayed up on the satellite just for e few more minutes?"

I have been involved in thousands of live shots in my TV career. And I've lost dozens of them to satellite issues. But my percentage is very high because I watch the clock. I lost one on Friday night because some clown stepped on a cable and the camera went to hash in the truck. Not a satellite problem, but I didn't give a shit. I lost a good guest.

196 Teh Flowah  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:16:34pm

re: #107 swamprat

There was a time, in the recent past, when science was gladly accepted by the religious. The church apologized to a long dead Galileo, and no one tried to say that the sun revolved around the earth, or that the earth was flat.
I remember when the left was for free trade, and the right against it.
There was a time when we taxed imported goods and kept the governments hands out of citizens' pockets.
There was a time,(oh how I long for it!) when facts were not considered to be verifiable based on the outcome of their ramifications, or their political correctness, but upon whether they were true, or not, and if they could be tested.

We seem to be going backwards into the future.

You seem to be nostalgic about taxing imported goods, but then also seem to say that free trade is a good thing? Perhaps?

197 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:16:51pm

re: #192 Charles

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

Though you probably have already, see my #180

198 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:17:07pm

re: #192 Charles

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

Certainly does seem like it is something that would have come out years ago if there were any substance to it.

199 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:17:32pm

re: #193 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I thought the broadcast industry uses clocks which are traceable (calibration-wise) to the atomic clocks -- NIST, et cetera. Is someone out there using his/her Timex?

Lost of small tape houses and/ or private studios don't have the atomic clocks, and yes, rely on something "inhouse'
If we're getting in a feed via fiber from one of them, I will always ask them what time do they show when they call to check in. If there's a difference, I'll tell them what time I have and that I will be going by our clock

200 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:17:37pm

re: #191 _RememberTonyC

i watched the pat condell clip on his web site ... if you decide to post it, heads may explode.

Oh yes, the Pat Condell video. I think I'm going to have to post it, because I'm wavering over whether I should. That feeling of uncertainty is usually a good indicator that I should go ahead and do it.

201 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:17:39pm

re: #194 swamprat

The latest Condell vid I saw, it looked like he had drank 4 cups of coffee and stubbed his toe just prior.
Still made a few good points.

the one on religious leaders and their castles?

202 MJ  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:18:06pm

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

I've been thinking about that story since I saw it yesterday.
It may be true, but then again, it may not.
I have some suspicions that perhaps it is part of a dis-information campaign designed to help de-legitimize Ahmadinejad's rule. Rumors of any sort, especially in Mideast, are quite common.

203 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:18:30pm

re: #193 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I thought the broadcast industry uses clocks which are traceable (calibration-wise) to the atomic clocks -- NIST, et cetera. Is someone out there using his/her Timex?

yes ... but even Rolexes can be set wrong.

204 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:19:05pm

re: #192 Charles

At first I was like: "Gotcha!", but then realized that of course the story sounded like the answer that we want to hear so until we have more proof than that offered by the Daily Telegraph, the world will have to wait...

205 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:19:15pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

Lost of small tape houses and/ or private studios don't have the atomic clocks, and yes, rely on something "inhouse'
If we're getting in a feed via fiber from one of them, I will always ask them what time do they show when they call to check in. If there's a difference, I'll tell them what time I have and that I will be going by our clock

Ah ha.

/can't resist ... do they ever as for a "second" opinion?

206 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:19:46pm

re: #192 Charles

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

I heard this story a few years ago. It was dubious then too.

207 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:20:29pm

re: #205 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Ah ha.

/can't resist ... do they ever as for a "second" opinion?

I'll let you know in a minute

208 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:20:32pm

re: #200 Charles

Oh yes, the Pat Condell video. I think I'm going to have to post it, because I'm wavering over whether I should. That feeling of uncertainty is usually a good indicator that I should go ahead and do it.


the reaction among most Lizards will be fine. the very dogmatic folks will explode. this is the one about religious leaders and "castles," right?

209 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:20:34pm

re: #203 _RememberTonyC

yes ... but even Rolexes can be set wrong.

Which, I'm sure, leads to some stem-winding situations.

/*ducking*

210 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:21:03pm

re: #207 sattv4u2

I'll let you know in a minute

Hour thread is going to hell !

211 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:21:26pm

re: #209 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Which, I'm sure, leads to some stem-winding situations.

/*ducking*

I have to HAND it to you on that one

212 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:22:29pm

re: #209 pre-Boomer Marine brat

Which, I'm sure, leads to some stem-winding situations.

/*ducking*

you'll take a licking and keep on ticking ...

213 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:22:38pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

Can you translate this sign? It's from Spencer's speech in Germany. "Separation is right?"

Here's your answer

[Link: www.bloomberg.com...]

214 Ben G. Hazi  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:22:53pm

re: #17 Charles

Sarazzin sounds like a f**king moron...

215 zuckerlilly  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:23:00pm

re: #192 Charles

Always the same conspiracy theories: Arafat was called a Jew. Khomeini as well and now A. Recently I met a Finnish guy here in TA - Evangelical and ID-admirer - who told me Hitler was a Jew.

216 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:23:17pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

I have to HAND it to you on that one

Just call me the GreenWitch.

/uh ... I think I need coffee

217 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:24:10pm

re: #212 _RememberTonyC

you'll take a licking and keep on ticking ...

Good one!

218 shiplord kirel  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:25:01pm

re: #192 Charles

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

This "really a Jew" stuff is pretty lame. I could discover another Area 51 nirth certifikat.
Make him Obama's twin or something? Yeah, that's the ticket. And why stop at twins? Maybe there's a whole litter of little aliens out there, grown up and leading an unsuspecting world to perdition.

219 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:25:07pm

re: #215 zuckerlilly

Always the same conspiracy theories: Arafat was called a Jew. Khomeini as well and now A. Recently I met a Finnish guy here in TA - Evangelical and ID-admirer - who told me Hitler was a Jew.

just don't tell me keith olbermann is a Jew ... we have enough problems ...

220 MJ  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:25:25pm

Some good advice from Elliott Abrams on Obama's foreign policy:

Détente and the Bunker

How to oppose a president's disastrous foreign policy.
by Elliott Abrams

... Be of good cheer. No whining, no nasty personal attacks. It's a political mistake, it's unattractive, it's self-defeating, and it's unwarranted. The American people think our country is indeed "defined by our differences" with murderous Islamist groups and repressive regimes. They don't agree that our "interests are shared" with such groups, and they believe friends deserve better treatment than enemies. We're on the American people's side, and they're on ours in this struggle over our country's relations with the world.

[Link: www.weeklystandard.com...]

221 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:25:41pm

re: #200 Charles

Oh yes, the Pat Condell video. I think I'm going to have to post it, because I'm wavering over whether I should. That feeling of uncertainty is usually a good indicator that I should go ahead and do it.

[Link: www.patcondell.net...]

Holy Smokes...he just blew it out of the park. Just killed it. Killed. It.

You can throw my religion / culture into that as well on many levels.

222 Flyers1974  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #173 Surabaya Stew

Speaking of self hating people, what about Mahmoud Ahmadinejad? If this is true, what next for Iran?

Even if it is not political propaganda or disinformation for some non-political agenda, I think most people in the Middle East would believe it to be Propaganda. I'd say nothing would be next for Iran if it is proved true.

223 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:26:04pm

*sigh*


Writing a paper and accompanying PowerPoint on Network Centric Warfare for class tomorrow. Ought to be an interesting reception in a liberal pacifist Quaker school. (I am not using "liberal" in a perjorative sense. Quakers just tend to have very liberal social and economic views, and are pacifists. They live what they believe and I respect them)

Network centric warfare is the term for a new paradigm shift in warfighting.
“It seeks to translate an information advantage, enabled in part by information technology, into a competitive warfighting advantage through the robust networking of well informed geographically dispersed forces. This networking, combined with changes in technology, organization, processes, and people - may allow new forms of organizational behavior.”
Essentially, this means that former modes of fighting that were often reactive in nature and compromised by lack of situational awareness were now becoming obsolete by virtue of information technology. Commanders could now know where individual troops were on the battlefield to within a few feet using GPS coordinates and interactive communication gear carried by the soldiers. Orders and information could be distributed immediately, allowing for enhanced response times and increased operational tempo. The enemy could be located with remote sensors, drones and satellites while keeping him confused as to where friendly forces were and what they where doing. It was to be a revolution in warfare, and yet a major part of was eliminated by Secretary of Defense Robert Gates just a few months ago. The promises of technology sometimes exceed the deliverable benefits, and that appears to be the case with the Future Combat Systems portion of Network Centric Warfare.

224 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:27:11pm

Ravens/Patriots game is a grim war ... NFL football at its best!

225 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:28:17pm

Tom Brady=Awesome

226 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:28:37pm

re: #223 celticdragon

Too late for tomorrow's paper, but when you get a chance read "Rainbow's End" for a twist on what cointel might look like in a fully networked world.

227 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:30:28pm

re: #201 _RememberTonyC

yes!

228 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:30:48pm

re: #225 _RememberTonyC

Tom Brady=Awesome

He certainly looks more comfortable than the 1st three games. You could tell his timing and touch had been WAY off

Today ,,, MUCH better

229 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:31:10pm

I believe the guy on the left side of the stage here is Rene aka Rede (von) Stadtkewitz

230 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:33:13pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

He certainly looks more comfortable than the 1st three games. You could tell his timing and touch had been WAY off

Today ,,, MUCH better

running game has been excellent ... allows him to be less predictable

231 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:33:17pm

re: #219 _RememberTonyC

just don't tell me keith olbermann is a Jew ... we have enough problems ...

Richard Goldstone is a Joo, and proud of it.

232 celticdragon  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:33:25pm

re: #226 Thanos

Cool. Thanks!

233 pre-Boomer Marine brat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:33:33pm

I see we've stopped spreading Bulova th' place.
It shows we're wearing Longines instead of those kiddie short pants.

/bbl, though you'll probably Oyster-icize me after that one ... :D

234 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:33:41pm

re: #227 swamprat

yes!


it was classic stuff

235 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:34:27pm

re: #230 _RememberTonyC

running game has been excellent ... allows him to be less predictable

Not to mention the line. Except for the play when he fumbled, he has time to look all over the field


Ruh Roh ,,, Ravens 50 yard run!!

damn!

236 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:35:21pm

re: #233 pre-Boomer Marine brat

I see we've stopped spreading Bulova th' place.
It shows we're wearing Longines instead of those kiddie short pants.

/bbl, though you'll probably Oyster-icize me after that one ... :D

until next timex ...

237 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:35:45pm

re: #235 sattv4u2

Not to mention the line. Except for the play when he fumbled, he has time to look all over the field


Ruh Roh ,,, Ravens 50 yard run!!

damn!


it's an excellent game!

238 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:36:17pm

re: #237 _RememberTonyC

it's an excellent game!

Thank you , Rainman!

239 Surabaya Stew  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:36:55pm

re: #222 Flyers1974

Even if it is not political propaganda or disinformation for some non-political agenda, I think most people in the Middle East would believe it to be Propaganda. I'd say nothing would be next for Iran if it is proved true.

Agreed; after talking with an Iranian friend just now, she came to a similar conclusion. Fact is, a significant portion of Iranians will believe anything critical of Ahmadinejad because they hate him, and the rest will disbelieve it because they love him. I personally suspect that it may be true, but then again, inconvenient family truths never stopped Bobby Fischer or Erhard Milch, among many others...

240 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:37:12pm

re: #238 sattv4u2

Thank you , Rainman!

5 minues to wapner ... kmart sucks

241 MJ  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:39:29pm

re: #231 Alouette

Richard Goldstone is a Joo, and proud of it.

I thought Goldstone served here too:

[Link: cghs.dadeschools.net...]

242 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:39:40pm

re: #231 Alouette

Richard Goldstone is a Joo, and proud of it.

Great link, Alouette.

243 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:42:32pm

re: #241 MJ

I thought Goldstone served here too:

[Link: cghs.dadeschools.net...]

I wonder if Goldstone is happy with the threat of arrest of Israeli officials in Europe.

244 swamprat  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:44:42pm

re: #196 Teh Flowah

Free trade is a cover phrase.
Depends on when it is used and by whom.
Translations:
Trade with Commies.(USSR and affiliates)
Trade with dictators. (African)
Trade with China. (passe')
Trade with dictators. (South American)
Trade with Mexico.(a lot of resistance)

"Free Trade" rarely means free trade.
And the truth is...nothing escapes taxes. They tax at purchase, maintenance, personal income received from sales...+more.
But I would like to tax imports, thus encouraging domestic manufacture. That is how became successful. Now we are coasting on our history. It can't last.

245 Racer X  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:46:33pm

GLOBAL PULSE: Afghan Women: Far From Equal (8/21/09)

Youtube Video
246 _RememberTonyC  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:46:35pm

re: #231 Alouette

Richard Goldstone is a Joo, and proud of it.

he sounds like a real piece of ...

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 12:56:28pm

re: #218 shiplord kirel

This "really a Jew" stuff is pretty lame. I could discover another Area 51 nirth certifikat.
Make him Obama's twin or something? Yeah, that's the ticket. And why stop at twins? Maybe there's a whole litter of little aliens out there, grown up and leading an unsuspecting world to perdition.

I've always thought Colin Powell looks Jewish. Then again, if it turned out he was really a long-lost MOT, I'd be OK with that.

248 MJ  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 1:03:26pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

I've always thought Colin Powell looks Jewish. Then again, if it turned out he was really a long-lost MOT, I'd be OK with that.

Powell knows a small amount of Yiddish.

249 Achilles Tang  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 1:27:21pm

re: #192 Charles

That story does not smell right. I suspect that it's deliberate disinformation.

Why? The points in the story are pretty much verifiable are they not?

In any case almost anyone from the region, including Hamas goons, likely share almost identical genes with Jews. I believe someone did a DNA study to that effect recently.

250 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 4:45:48pm

re: #116 Charles

The reason why that Louisiana bill received bi-partisan support is because it was very deceptively written, to conceal its creationist intent as much as possible. It's based on a model bill promoted by the Discovery Institute that use lots of positive-sounding buzzwords like "academic freedom." Who could be against that> And given that most legislators don't even read the bills on which they vote, it's pretty clear that a lot of them simply said, "Academic freedom? That sounds good," and voted yes.

OOPs. Way late getting back to this thread.

Charles, yes, I think you are partly correct. The bill is very deceptively written; it almost sounds like the exact opposite of what it is.

But there's one other thing here in Louisiana, and that is the Democrat party is not as liberal as it is in other areas of the country, PLUS there are many many fundamentalist and evangelical folks who are Democcrat - both in the legislature itself, and also, among the constituency of various legislators. I recognize most of the names on that bill, and that played a part in their support, in addition to the sheer deception of the way the thing is written.

251 TheAntichrist  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 6:55:22pm

Damn damn damn, I just learned how to spell Australopithecus and now they spring this one on me!

That's the last straw, I'm becoming a Creationist. Godidit, nice and simple.

;)

252 Sabriel  Sun, Oct 4, 2009 11:30:33pm

Note that Islamic creationist Harun Yahya has lost no time in dismissing and denouncing the discovery, claiming that "Ardi" is no different from the modern bonobos. [Link: tr1.harunyahya.com...]

On the unholy alliance between evangelical and Islamic opponents of science, see the recent lecture by Ronald Numbers: "Creationism Goes Global: From American to Islamic Fundamentalism."
[Link: tofindtheprinciples.blogspot.com...]


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