Video: Israel and Lebanon Battle Over a Tree

Middle East • Views: 3,452

Here’s an Associated Press video report on today’s clash between Lebanese and Israeli soldiers that resulted in four dead:

Youtube Video

UPDATE at 8/3/10 1:55:10 pm:

UNIFIL says IDF activity did not warrant Lebanese fire:

UNIFIL forces who toured the site of Tuesday’s deadly exchanges of fire on the northern border said the IDF’s activity did not warrant the attack launched by Lebanese Army soldiers, Israeli army officials who spoke to UNIFIL representatives said.

According to the IDF, soldiers were performing routine operations in a border-area enclave within Israeli territory when they were ambushed by Lebanese troops.

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665 comments
1 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:22:47pm

Put your fences right on the border, guys!

2 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:23:00pm

I hope it was a really fucking awesome tree.

3 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:23:32pm

why don't they just leaf each other alone

4 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:24:44pm

I hope the injured are OaK.

5 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:24:48pm

The substory about smuggling cars is freakin' awesome.

"We could bring deadly weapons in, but we'd rather bring in luxury items for our corrupt elite!"

6 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:25:47pm

re: #3 SpaceJesus

i apologize for this

7 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:25:50pm

Not the first time troops have died over trees, and at least once before it was Americans who died. I'm thinking of the Axe murder incident and subsequent response, Operation Paul Bunyan

8 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:26:23pm

re: #5 windsagio

The substory about smuggling cars is freakin' awesome.

"We could bring deadly weapons in, but we'd rather bring in luxury items for our corrupt elite!"

The car was probably full of weapons too. I'm sure they didn't waste all that space.

Notice at the end -- the tunnel starts collapsing on that nice Toyota.

9 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:27:02pm

re: #8 Charles

smuggling guns is bad news, but both of those images made me smile :)

10 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:27:04pm

What else might be crossing the border?

What...a...mystery. I just can't think of what they might be smuggling.

Chocolate-covered gummi bears, I imagine.

11 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:28:03pm

How the 2010 incident between Lebanon and Israel started

Youtube Video

The Blue helmets stall for time while the Lebanese set up firing positions. It should also be noted that every major news agency had reporters and photographers on the scene to witness a routine tree trimming.

12 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:28:07pm

A 45 year old IDF officer died according to Israel Politik.

STRATFOR also reports,

At least three Lebanese soldiers, one Israeli soldier and a journalist reportedly were killed, with wounded likely on both sides.
13 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:28:09pm

re: #10 EmmmieG

m&m's, they won't melt.

14 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:29:21pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

wait, are you saying that the UN intentionally set the IDF guys up?

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you >>

15 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:29:23pm

re: #13 windsagio

Not if they're in your hand.

16 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:29:23pm

re: #7 McSpiff

For the record, I think overwhelming displays of force is something that needs to be revived. I'm sure the IDF could put on an impressive display and finish removing that tree.

17 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:30:03pm

re: #13 windsagio

m&m's, they won't melt.


Ironically, the whole "melt-in-your-mouth-not-in-your-hand" means there's something other than chocolate going on there. Chocolate melts.

18 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:30:48pm

re: #16 McSpiff

well given that the whole thing seems to be a massive, stupid misunderstanding, restraint might be better.

19 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:30:55pm

re: #17 EmmmieG

Yum, Shellac!

20 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:17pm

re: #14 windsagio

wait, are you saying that the UN intentionally set the IDF guys up?

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you >>

Yes. They were there to witness a preplanned ambush. The Blue Helmets along with the reporters make good human shields.

21 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:18pm

I never did get exactly what the tree did to offend?

22 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:22pm

Part of any good security fence includes a cleared area around the fence so infiltratrators cannot have anywhere to hide. Trying to say its just a tree is not even an issue. Its basic security procedures in action.

23 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:43pm

re: #16 McSpiff

For the record, I think overwhelming displays of force is something that needs to be revived. I'm sure the IDF could put on an impressive display and finish removing that tree.

I am not sure I agree in going nuts over a tree, but yes I sure it could be done..

24 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:31:50pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Well that's just crazy.

25 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:01pm

OK, some points here.

1. The fence does not go directly to the border specifically so that trees and other things which would prevent the IDF from watching terrorist movements could be removed.

2. The Hezzies are actively hostile to Israel - as todays events clearly have shown - and as if you need any other history lesson. Israel has every reason to need to be able to keep tabs on those monsters.

3. In a routine event, clearing a tree, which the IDF told the UN forces about, the Lebanese opened fire.

4. A Lebanese Journalist was killed and another wounded. Why were the arab press (particularly one from al-akbahr, a hezzie paper there in the first place?) This is a little more evidence that the Hezzies seized the moment to take a provocative action and wanted photos and their own propaganda.

5. The Arabs opened fire and murdered an Israeli officer from across the border. Another is in critical condition. No doubt that is what they wanted for their press releases and home propaganda.

6. Israel returned fire and killed four of the bastards.

7. Almost immediately, the General of the Northern Israeli command mobilized his forces.

8. The Lebanese high command almost immediately began calling Israel asking that things not escalate. There was not so much posturing when they were calling Israel over this. The fact that Israel meant business this time made all the difference.

26 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:09pm

This really is truly ridiculous. All this crap, over a tree-trimming.

Of course, it's not at all about a tree-trimming. It's about making sure no substantive talks take place regarding the future of the Palestinian people, imo.

Nothing in the M.E. makes a lick of sense.

27 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:12pm

re: #16 McSpiff

For the record, I think overwhelming displays of force is something that needs to be revived. I'm sure the IDF could put on an impressive display and finish removing that tree.

Chainsaw thru the fence, thermite grenade in the stump, no more tree,

28 freetoken  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:32pm

re: #7 McSpiff

There's something especially lame about arboreal excuses for war.

29 SpaceJesus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:32:37pm

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Part of any good security fence includes a cleared area around the fence so infiltratrators cannot have anywhere to hide. Trying to say its just a tree is not even an issue. Its basic security procedures in action.

b,b,but lebanon's symbol on their flag is a tree. clearly this is an insult.

30 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:33:03pm

re: #14 windsagio

wait, are you saying that the UN intentionally set the IDF guys up?

Please tell me I'm misunderstanding you >>

The Blue helmets wave the un flag while the Lebanese unpack weapons for the ambush.

31 mikefromArlington  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:33:05pm

A little high strung dontcha think?

32 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:33:22pm

re: #20 Killgore Trout

Yes. They were there to witness a preplanned ambush. The Blue Helmets along with the reporters make good human shields.

Makes sense, but we can't jump the gun, especially at such a sensitive time in the Middle East.

33 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:33:34pm

re: #21 EmmmieG

I never did get exactly what the tree did to offend?

underbrush and trees can obscure vision in a dead zone and that close to the fence, it could bend and damage the fence either with its branches or roots.

34 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:34:17pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

The Blue helmets wave the un flag while the Lebanese unpack weapons for the ambush.

lol, here:

A Lebanese army soldiers (L) and UNIFIL (United Nations Interim Force in Lebanon) soldiers look across the border with Israel after brief clashes which erupted along the tense border, near the village of Adaisseh, which lies across the border from the kibbutz Misgav Am, on August 3, 2010.

Bold and italics mine.

AFTER

35 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:34:43pm

re: #31 mikefromArlington

A little high strung dontcha think?

Who. Explain?

36 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:34:59pm

re: #32 Max D. Reinhardt

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

37 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:35:13pm

re: #35 Walter L. Newton

I'd say everyone involved >>

38 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:35:34pm

re: #24 windsagio

Well that's just crazy.

no it's not...naive peace pussies are the crazy ones

39 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:35:38pm

re: #30 Killgore Trout

The Blue helmets wave the un flag while the Lebanese unpack weapons for the ambush.

"So, what you guys doing with those guns?"
"We're going to ambush some Jews."
"Cool...can we watch?"

40 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:35:54pm

re: #37 windsagio

I'd say everyone involved >>

I'd say let him answer for himself.

41 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:36:11pm

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

I'd say let him answer for himself.

snippy today Walter!

Hard day at work?

42 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:36:12pm

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"So, what you guys doing with those guns?"
"We're going to ambush some Jews."
"Cool...can we watch?"

Pretty piss poor ambush if you only setup after the firing starts, no?

43 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:36:29pm

re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

lets just say they are not very motivated to interfere...

44 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:36:54pm

re: #11 Killgore Trout

1. With whom (nation/organization) is the man yelling "Wait! Stop! Stop doing anything!!!"

2. To whom is he yelling?

45 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:36:54pm

re: #39 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

dude, you didn't read your own caption even after I relinked it and bolded an important thing you missed.

46 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:00pm

re: #42 McSpiff

Pretty piss poor ambush if you only setup after the firing starts, no?

I never said they were good at it.

47 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:13pm

The comments over at HuffPoo remind me once again that they are not the good guys.

48 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:42pm

re: #43 brookly red

yeah, they totally want a firefight with them in the middle of it!

All this is is a stupid misunderstanding over a tree and a fence that got a little out of hand.

UN plots and such really don't apply.

49 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:47pm

re: #45 windsagio

dude, you didn't read your own caption even after I relinked it and bolded an important thing you missed.

probably because I hadn't gotten to that one yet.

50 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:37:58pm

re: #46 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I never said they were good at it.

Sorry, maybe I wasn't clear. You apparently don't know what the word "ambush" means. Setting up a position to return fire is more or less the total opposite of an ambush.

51 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:38:08pm

re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

Yes. The UN General Assembly voted 150-6 to condemn the Israelis security fence to fend off Palestinian terrorists. And a major body of the UN (the UNHRC) is loaded with OIC members who waste all their time condemning Israel and not Zimbabwe, China, North Korea, et al.

52 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:38:17pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

This really is truly ridiculous. All this crap, over a tree-trimming.

Of course, it's not at all about a tree-trimming. It's about making sure no substantive talks take place regarding the future of the Palestinian people, imo.

Nothing in the M.E. makes a lick of sense.

[Press TV News] Israeli Attack On Lebanon - August 03, 2010 - Detailed Report

Youtube Video

Skip to about 2:00. Hezbollah was recently found guilty of assassinating politicians. They need to provoke Israel into action to justify their existence to the Lebanese government. Derailing the peace talk between the Palestinians and Israelis is also a big motivation.

53 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:38:54pm

re: #48 windsagio

yeah, they totally want a firefight with them in the middle of it!

well that is what peace keepers are supposed to do, no?

55 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:39:05pm

re: #51 Max D. Reinhardt

I'm a little put off by the paranoia, gotta admit.

56 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:39:23pm

re: #52 Killgore Trout

Then it is in Israel's best interests to act as though nothing happened, strange as that sounds.

58 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:40:19pm

I said this earlier today--first have the negotiations, and when they're over, that's when you announce you did it. This always happens. Announce scheduled peace talks, and you get things like--"Lebanon had to respond with force because Israel crossed the border to cut down a tree".

Coupled with, "Israel has no right to use force even though unnamed people are shooting rockets at it's citizens from Gaza", or that "Israeli soldiers shouldn't respond to attacks from a gang of knife wielding peacelovers also armed with metal bars and guns."

59 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:40:22pm

re: #34 windsagio

Watch the video on #11. This was before the shooting started. It couldn't have been before because the Blue helmets fled as soon as the shooting started.

60 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:40:32pm

re: #47 Alouette

The comments over at HuffPoo remind me once again that they are not the good guys.

Yes. The moonbats are just as obnoxious, deluded, dysfunctional, racist and crazy as the wingnuts.

61 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:40:55pm

re: #21 EmmmieG

I never did get exactly what the tree did to offend?

It doesn't matter. It's all Israel's fault anyway.

62 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:00pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

This really is truly ridiculous. All this crap, over a tree-trimming.

Of course, it's not at all about a tree-trimming. It's about making sure no substantive talks take place regarding the future of the Palestinian people, imo.

Nothing in the M.E. makes a lick of sense.

It makes a lot of sense.

Neither the Arabs or the Israeli left want a deal brokered by Netanyahu.

The Arabs believe they will extract extract less from a right wing Israeli PM. Further, a deal with Netanyahu will mean a committment to no violence- something the Palestinians are loathe to do.

The Israeli left will be regarded even less than they are now if Netanyahu is the one who cuts the deal because that deal will have been made without the appeasement priented Israeli left.

Middle East politics is a dirty, dirty business.

63 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:01pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

Watch the video on #11. This was before the shooting started. It couldn't have been before because the Blue helmets fled as soon as the shooting started.

Then maybe we should avoid linking to inaccurate sources?

64 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:04pm

re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

It is rather an established fact.

65 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:11pm

re: #55 windsagio

Speaking of paranoia, Hezzies accuse Israel of killing late Lebanese Prime Minister, Hariri.

67 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:26pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I did watch the video. The UN guys are shouting offscreen "Don't Do Anything!"

That's just about what I'd shout too, given the circumstances.

69 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:41:39pm

re: #58 Bob Levin

I said this earlier today--first have the negotiations, and when they're over, that's when you announce you did it. This always happens. Announce scheduled peace talks, and you get things like--"Lebanon had to respond with force because Israel crossed the border to cut down a tree".

Coupled with, "Israel has no right to use force even though unnamed people are shooting rockets at it's citizens from Gaza", or that "Israeli soldiers shouldn't respond to attacks from a gang of knife wielding peacelovers also armed with metal bars and guns."

Agreed, but look at the post just before yours. They didn't even cross the border. They were cutting down a tree in Israel.

70 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:42:09pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, really?

Man this is gonna be a painful thread.

71 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:42:15pm

re: #44 Fozzie Bear

1. With whom (nation/organization) is the man yelling "Wait! Stop! Stop doing anything!!!"

2. To whom is he yelling?

It seemed to me that the person yelling it was UN, and the people he was yelling it to was the tree trimmers. Am I mistaken?

That paints a picture of a powerless observer-status UN, not a hostile UN. It looks like the man was trying to warn the Israelis. Watch the video, and look at the yelling dude.

72 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:42:26pm

re: #47 Alouette

The comments over at HuffPoo remind me once again that they are not the good guys.

I was literally just about to go there to see what the general tone was. Just as I expected...

73 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:42:55pm

re: #70 windsagio

Dude, really?

Man this is gonna be a painful thread.

dude, yes
take some Advil

74 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:10pm

re: #73 albusteve

interestingly, I just did :D

75 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:10pm

In other sad news today
regarding Mitch Miller and such
the Ty-D-Bol man has passed away
its time for the final flush.

Youtube Video

RIP Dan Resin, 79

76 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:14pm

re: #67 windsagio

I did watch the video. The UN guys are shouting offscreen "Don't Do Anything!"

That's just about what I'd shout too, given the circumstances.

I'm sure the Lebanese Army would welcome your assistance in setting up future ambushes. Americans make the best human shields of all.

77 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:15pm

re: #71 Fozzie Bear

Nope, UN is only there to kill Jews. Its the only logical explanation.

78 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:18pm

re: #62 researchok

It makes a lot of sense.

The Arabs believe they will extract extract less from a right wing Israeli PM. Further, a deal with Netanyahu will mean a committment to no violence- something the Palestinians are loathe to do.

Even the hawkish Ariel Sharon offered to stop settlements for peace. I wouldn't underestimate Israel's desire for peace.

79 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:43:31pm

re: #70 windsagio

Dude, really?

Man this is gonna be a painful thread.

no pain, no gain...

80 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:44:13pm

re: #79 brookly red

I know I know, gotta man up, fight the good fight.

Gotta whinge a little bit tho >

81 kalkin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:44:39pm

Too simple
Israel reported to UN blue helmets about tree trimming at the border.
Blue Helmets informed Lebanon army
it seems like it was a pre-planned provocation using snipers

82 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:44:50pm

re: #78 Max D. Reinhardt

Even the hawkish Ariel Sharon offered to stop settlements for peace. I wouldn't underestimate Israel's desire for peace.

The settlements have never been an obstacle peace.

Israel has proved more than once they will evacuate settlements for a negotiated peace treaty.

83 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:45:17pm

re: #81 kalkin

Too simple
Israel reported to UN blue helmets about tree trimming at the border.
Blue Helmets informed Lebanon army
it seems like it was a pre-planned provocation using snipers

Good point, and welcome!

84 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:45:44pm

re: #55 windsagio

It's not paranoia. If you've been reading the news on this site for any number of years, you know how corrupt and ineffectual the UN is. This shouldn't even be a point of contention. Charles could re-post nothing but evidence of this for days.

85 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:45:52pm

re: #81 kalkin

Too simple
Israel reported to UN blue helmets about tree trimming at the border.
Blue Helmets informed Lebanon army
it seems like it was a pre-planned provocation using snipers

Which the UN is required to do, for the record.

86 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:01pm

re: #81 kalkin

If they planned it, they did a damn bad job, especially with UN help.

Maybe it was just a stupid mistake instead?

87 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:09pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Lebanese Army would welcome your assistance in setting up future ambushes. Americans make the best human shields of all.

Perhaps a different video streamed to you than I saw.

In the one I saw, the UN guy was yelling for the tree-trimmer to stop, presumably to avert exactly what happened from happening.

That doesn't sound like a hostile UN. It sounds like an impotent one.

88 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:24pm

re: #82 researchok

The settlements have never been an obstacle peace.

Israel has proved more than once they will evacuate settlements for a negotiated peace treaty.

But the Palestinians don't want peace, they want war. They've shown this over and over, in 1948, 1967, 1993, and 2000.

89 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:31pm

re: #84 Bob Levin

Corrupt and ineffectual != 'scheming to kill Jews'.

90 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:34pm

I do not envy the UN Peacekeepers.

"Hey Jaques! Them guys over there are trying to kill them other guys over there. Go run in between them waving this little blue flag. That ought to take care of it."

91 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:46:47pm

I hope this is not the start of the use of defoliants (sp?) that never works out good...

92 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:03pm

re: #90 DaddyG

Well that made me laugh, thanks :)

93 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:19pm

Well look at this. UNIFIL is now saying the IDF activity did not warrant the LAF response:

UNIFIL says IDF activity did not warrant Lebanese fire

Israeli army officials say peacekeeping forces touring site of Tuesday's deadly skirmish determined that Lebanese soldiers had no reason to open fire on IDF troops performing routine border activity

UNIFIL forces who toured the site of Tuesday's deadly exchanges of fire on the northern border said the IDF's activity did not warrant the attack launched by Lebanese Army soldiers, Israeli army officials who spoke to UNIFIL representatives said.

According to the IDF, soldiers were performing routine operations in a border-area enclave within Israeli territory when they were ambushed by Lebanese troops.

Continues.

94 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:45pm

re: #87 Fozzie Bear

Perhaps a different video streamed to you than I saw.

In the one I saw, the UN guy was yelling for the tree-trimmer to stop, presumably to avert exactly what happened from happening.

That doesn't sound like a hostile UN. It sounds like an impotent one.

Negligent, incompetent or complicit. Those are the only terms that come to mind to when describing UNFIL troops.

95 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:52pm

re: #90 DaddyG

I do not envy the UN Peacekeepers.

"Hey Jaques! Them guys over there are trying to kill them other guys over there. Go run in between them waving this little blue flag. That ought to take care of it."

I know peace keepers who lived through Sierra Leone. Worse than anything you can imagine.

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:53pm

re: #92 windsagio

There's a tall cool glass of Tu Quoque downthread if you want one :D

97 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:56pm

re: #81 kalkin

Too simple
Israel reported to UN blue helmets about tree trimming at the border.
Blue Helmets informed Lebanon army
it seems like it was a pre-planned provocation using snipers

the UN is Lebenon's patsy...and that's being polite
when the real shooting is over, the UN is going to have some explaining to do...bunkers, launching site, ammo dumps etc scattered all over their area of responsibility....once again, it will be shown that the UN gets people killed, if not via NYC, then certainly on the ground

98 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:47:58pm

re: #86 windsagio

If they planned it, they did a damn bad job, especially with UN help.

Maybe it was just a stupid mistake instead?

/they didn't know it was loaded? nawww, not so much.

99 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:12pm

re: #90 DaddyG

I do not envy the UN Peacekeepers.

"Hey Jaques! Them guys over there are trying to kill them other guys over there. Go run in between them waving this little blue flag. That ought to take care of it."

Exactly. They were trying to do their jobs, impossible as it may have been to be successful.

Conflating the UN with the assailants, in this incident, is absurd and delusional. The film is right there.

100 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:26pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

There's no need to get like that, man.

101 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:28pm

re: #69 EmmmieG

That's how to start a major conflict. It's aimed at stopping the scheduled talks.

102 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:38pm

re: #82 researchok

The settlements have never been an obstacle peace.

Israel has proved more than once they will evacuate settlements for a negotiated peace treaty.

land for peace is a proven bust

103 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:44pm

re: #70 windsagio

Dude, really?

Man this is gonna be a painful thread.

Why do you doubt it?

Endless one sided singling out of Israel by the UN is common place. It serves the oil interests of Europe and gives America bashers a proxy to hit us with. UNIFIL, if anything aids the Hezzies. Part of the mandate of UNIFIL is to remove Hezzie bunkers. Right? That is a UN resolution right?

Those bunkers and missile put tens of thousands of Israeli civilians in peril. Hezzballah proudly crows about their missile capacity being greater than it was before the last war - where they indiscriminately fired on civilian targets with thousands unguided rockets - whose only use is as a terror weapon.

Yet the blue helmets do nothing about the bunkers or the missile buildup from Syria and Iran.

Why is that?

So please don't hand me any crap about how nice the blue helmets are or how reasonable the arabs are.

This is not about a tree. An innocent man - who was not even cutting down the tree was murdered and another critically injured.

WHY DO YOU NOT CARE ABOUT THAT?

104 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:48:59pm

re: #93 Gus 802

heh so the IDF is saying the UN said it was unwarranted?

Of course it was!

~~~

I still think the soldiers just got confused by the fence/border thing... makes the most sense.

105 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:49:19pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Lebanese Army would welcome your assistance in setting up future ambushes. Americans make the best human shields of all.

le sigh

106 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:49:56pm

re: #94 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Negligent, incompetent or complicit. Those are the only terms that come to mind to when describing UNFIL troops.

You do know the RoE they operate under essentially allow them to only intervene when directly attacked, and not even always then? They are not combat troops, at best observers and a means of communication between hostile parties. They observe peace, they don't create it.

107 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:09pm

re: #102 albusteve

land for peace is a proven bust

With the Palestinians, that is an absolute truth. The deal cut with Egypt and Jordan, while imperfect, has held.

For now.

108 kalkin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:23pm

re: #86 windsagio

no
do not think so
killed lebanesse soldiers makes Lebanon victim of Israel agression
The aim was a provocation

109 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:24pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

I do care! Any loss of life is tragic!

I just find 'stupid mistake on the border' more likely than 'evil UN plot'.

110 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:49pm

re: #96 WindUpBird

There's a tall cool glass of Tu Quoque downthread if you want one :D


I'm kind of bored with Tu Quoque and No True Scotsman. Can't we start using some new fallacies?

111 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:56pm

re: #104 windsagio

No, it doesn't make sense to respond to a border crossing with gunfire, prior to any warnings or contact.

112 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:50:58pm

re: #108 kalkin

nice of those soldiers and that reporter to voulenteer to die.

113 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:51:05pm

re: #77 McSpiff

Nope, UN is only there to kill Jews. Its the only logical explanation.

No the truth is that the UN is there to make certain that the problem remains unsolved indefinitely by doing nothing to prevent the killing of Jews. This serves the interests of the Arab states and the European nations who depend on that oil.

114 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:51:08pm

re: #109 windsagio

I do care! Any loss of life is tragic!

I just find 'stupid mistake on the border' more likely than 'evil UN plot'.

Maw, Paw, there's an old strawman in the yard.

115 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:51:30pm

re: #111 Obdicut

No, it doesn't make sense to respond to a border crossing with gunfire, prior to any warnings or contact.

I agree, it does not.

People do stupid things on tense borders, however.

116 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:51:40pm

re: #89 windsagio

Why so literal? Corrupt and ineffectual. But the results of that corruption ends up with Jews getting killed. What do you think the results will be of Hezbollah stockpiling weapons--right under the noses of UNIFIL--in southern Lebanon? More pheasant for dinner?

Don't think so.

117 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:51:55pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

Why do you doubt it?

Endless one sided singling out of Israel by the UN is common place. It serves the oil interests of Europe and gives America bashers a proxy to hit us with. UNIFIL, if anything aids the Hezzies. Part of the mandate of UNIFIL is to remove Hezzie bunkers. Right? That is a UN resolution right?

Those bunkers and missile put tens of thousands of Israeli civilians in peril. Hezzballah proudly crows about their missile capacity being greater than it was before the last war - where they indiscriminately fired on civilian targets with thousands unguided rockets - whose only use is as a terror weapon.

Yet the blue helmets do nothing about the bunkers or the missile buildup from Syria and Iran.

Why is that?

So please don't hand me any crap about how nice the blue helmets are or how reasonable the arabs are.

This is not about a tree. An innocent man - who was not even cutting down the tree was murdered and another critically injured.

WHY DO YOU NOT CARE ABOUT THAT?

because he hates Israel...not the first time it's been exposed

118 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:07pm

re: #57 Gus 802

Aerial Photograph of Location of Incident Along Lebanese Border, 3 Aug 2010

Image: 11.jpg

Confirmed by google earth. The incident is just north of Misgav Am. Looks like the were well withing Israeli territory.

119 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:08pm

re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

Yes. Charles has posted numerous threads about this.

120 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:08pm

I think we all need a reminder of why Israel fights, and why incidents like this can happen.

Youtube Video
121 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:14pm

re: #117 albusteve

FOAD, thanks.

122 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:17pm

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

No the truth is that the UN is there to make certain that the problem remains unsolved indefinitely by doing nothing to prevent the killing of Jews. This serves the interests of the Arab states and the European nations who depend on that oil.

Or the UN is an observer and nothing more. But you can go with Grand Arab Conspiracy if you prefer.

123 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:52:39pm

re: #109 windsagio

I do care! Any loss of life is tragic!

I just find 'stupid mistake on the border' more likely than 'evil UN plot'.

It wasn't a mistake. You don't line up a bunch of people with weapons by mistake.

It also is abundantly clear it had nothing to do with the UN. They tried to stop it, and failed, because they have no fucking power.

124 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:10pm

re: #82 researchok

The settlements have never been an obstacle peace.

Israel has proved more than once they will evacuate settlements for a negotiated peace treaty.

Yup.

* 300 square miles of the West Bank were evacuated.

*21 Israeli settlements were uprooted in the Gaza Strip

*4 Israeli settlements were uprooted in the "West Bank."

*48 graves in the Gush Katif Cemetery, including six graves of area residents murdered by terrorists, were uprooted and moved.

*9,000 Israelis, including 1,700 Israeli families, were expelled.

*38 synagogues were dismantled in the Gaza Strip. Most were torched by the Arabs afterward.

*5,000 school-age children left their schools
:
*42 daycare centers were closed in Gaza alone.

*36 kindergartens were closed.

*7 elementary schools were closed.

*3 high schools were closed.

*10,000 people employed in agriculture and related industries in Gush Katif, including 5,000 Arabs, lost their livelihood.

* 166 active Israeli farmers were expelled.

*800 cows were moved.

*1 zoo, the Katifari, that housed hundreds of animals, was moved.

*$120 million in flowers and produce exported annually from Gush Katif. Lost.

*60% of Israel's cherry tomato exports came from Gaza. Lost.

* 3.5 million square meters (almost 1,000 acres) of greenhouses. Lost.

*70% of Israel's organic produce was produced in Gaza. Lost.

*60% of the herbs exported from Israel came from Gush Katif. Lost.

*15% of Israel's agricultural exports originated in Gaza. Lost.

*45,000 Israeli soldiers and policemen participated in the expulsion.

*$500 million was the amount of money Israel’s security establishment spent in order to relocate Israel Defense Forces bases outside the Gaza Strip and build new border crossing facilities
.
*$870 million was the approximate cost for Israel to facilitate the resettlement of former West Bank and Gaza residents elsewhere in the country

*$360,000 was the approximate average compensation amount Israel expected to pay to relocate each family.

*$1.7 billion was the approximate cost to the Israeli government for the withdrawal initiative.

From: HOW DARE SHE?

125 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:16pm

re: #112 windsagio

nice of those soldiers and that reporter to voulenteer to die.

The reporter was there for what purpose? He was a Hezzie propagandist who wanted some nice photos of dead Jews. I rather hope his demise hurt before he went to hell.

126 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:17pm

I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that AP highlighted only the UN and Lebanon. Were no Israelis available? No Israel communique to quote?

127 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:28pm

re: #104 windsagio

heh so the IDF is saying the UN said it was unwarranted?

Of course it was!

~~~

I still think the soldiers just got confused by the fence/border thing... makes the most sense.

As they would say in school yard parlance: the LAF started it. This was also on the same day that...

A Hezbollah supporter, holds a poster of Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah during a rally marking the fourth anniversary of the 2006 Israel-Hezbollah war, in Beirut's southern suburb, Tuesday, Aug. 3, 2010. Nasrallah praised the army for their "heroic" stand against Israel on Tuesday. He warned in a televised speech to thousands of supporters south of Beirut that his fighters would intervene if Israeli troops ever attack Lebanese forces again.

Something is still rotten in the state of Denmark.

128 kalkin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:29pm

re: #112 windsagio

like in chess game
do u really think that anybody in Lebanon is REALLY warried with 5 or 10 killed people?

129 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:34pm

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

No the truth is that the UN is there to make certain that the problem remains unsolved indefinitely by doing nothing to prevent the killing of Jews. This serves the interests of the Arab states and the European nations who depend on that oil.

The Arab states need Arab deaths to maintain power, as well.

However, there are still plenty of good people who work for and at the UN, and the peace-keepers really do put their lives on the line in countries they have no attachment to.

130 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:49pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Confirmed by google earth. The incident is just north of Misgav Am. Looks like the were well withing Israeli territory.

As if that will matter . . .

131 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:55pm

re: #106 McSpiff

You do know the RoE they operate under essentially allow them to only intervene when directly attacked, and not even always then? They are not combat troops, at best observers and a means of communication between hostile parties. They observe peace, they don't create it.

So completely useless by design, except as shields for Lebanese troops to hide behind.

132 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:53:59pm

re: #116 Bob Levin

Why so literal? Corrupt and ineffectual. But the results of that corruption ends up with Jews getting killed. What do you think the results will be of Hezbollah stockpiling weapons--right under the noses of UNIFIL--in southern Lebanon? More pheasant for dinner?

Don't think so.

It's still different than them intentionally plotting to kill Jews.

Very, very different.

133 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:54:12pm

re: #113 LudwigVanQuixote

No the truth is that the UN is there to make certain that the problem remains unsolved indefinitely by doing nothing to prevent the killing of Jews. This serves the interests of the Arab states and the European nations who depend on that oil.

The UN is simply indifferent to Israeli war fatigue. The Israeli people want peace but the UN would rather prop up it's self image as a humanitarian organization rather than solve the real problem.

134 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:54:42pm

re: #109 windsagio

I do care! Any loss of life is tragic!

I just find 'stupid mistake on the border' more likely than 'evil UN plot'.

and every loss of life is the fault of Israel in your opinion....do you agree to the notion that Gaza should have and open border with Israel?

135 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:10pm

re: #121 windsagio

FOAD, thanks.

getting a headache?

136 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:13pm

re: #128 kalkin

The people being shot maybe :p

137 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:20pm

re: #104 windsagio

I still think the soldiers just got confused by the fence/border thing... makes the most sense.


So you think it'a a coincidence that AP, AFP, Reuters, Getty Images and Aljazeera were all on the scene to report on a routine Israeli tree trimming?

138 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:31pm

re: #135 albusteve

:)

139 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:33pm

The UN did not try to stop the event from occurring.

The only became involved when it became clear the Israelis would inflict major damage on the Lebanese forces.

That has been the UN pattern for decades. Violence becomes a priority only when it becomes clear Israel will dominate the confrontation. The UN is never there to voice concern when Arabs initiate the hostilities.

140 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:36pm

re: #103 LudwigVanQuixote

UN SCR 1701 requires UNIFIL to disarm all militias operating in Lebanon South of the Litani River and to enforce the demilitarization of the area other than the Lebanese military. It has repeatedly failed to do so, and its failures directly led to the Hizbullah war in 2006. Hizbullah was confident in its ability to repulse an Israeli attack because they had built up their bunkers and terror infrastructure throughout Southern Lebanon and up to and including right under UNIFIL's nose - using UNIFIL positions to shield themselves from Israeli attack (or attempted to do so).

Hizbullah has previously admitted to violating SCR 1701 by accepting missiles from Syria, but UNIFIL has failed to disarm, let alone maintain the peace along the border.

It is laughable that Lebanon is calling on the UN to act against Israel for violations of SCR 1701 here, when it is clearly someone on the Lebanese side of the border who precipitated the attack and Israel was well within its sovereign rights to defend itself.

I see this as yet another probing attack along the lines of the flotilla raid to test Israel's resolve to protect itself and its borders.

141 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:47pm

re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?

The UN is notoriously anti-Israel. Explain why millions of Arab refugees receive UNWRA funds, that would be refugee funding while they are residents in Arab countries. In other words, how can you be a refugee while living in your own country? The truth is that these countries (Egypt, Jordan and Syria) do not want responsibilities for their "refugees" and won't pay for them. So the UN does it. Meanwhile, millions of Christians have been burned and tortured out of their villages in Africa. Real honest-to-god refugees and are still wandering the desert with little UN help.

How much does the UN give to the orphans and widows of murdered Israelis? Zero. To hell with the UN.

Why did the UN make a resolution to allow Palestinians reparations for Israeli land and income when the Jews never got reparations for the Arab lands THEY were kicked out of with nothing but the shirt on their backs?

[Link: www.unwatch.org...]

List of UN resolutions concerning Israel. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Where are the Arab resolutions? Meanwhile, the Arab countries have some of the worst human rights violations on the planet.

To hell with the UN.

142 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:55:48pm

re: #104 windsagio

I still think the soldiers just got confused by the fence/border thing... makes the most sense.


Then why were Hezzie journalists on the scene - dispatched before the shooting started?

143 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:02pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

So now all the major western news agencies are in on the plot too?

JUST HOW FAR DOES IT GO?!?!?!?!

144 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:05pm

re: #126 MandyManners

I'm sure I'm not the first to notice that AP highlighted only the UN and Lebanon. Were no Israelis available? No Israel communique to quote?

Not the only one. To be expected.

145 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:12pm

re: #118 Killgore Trout

Confirmed by google earth. The incident is just north of Misgav Am. Looks like the were well withing Israeli territory.

This link works better.

[Link: maps.google.com...]

Lebanon is on the left (west).

146 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:28pm

re: #137 Killgore Trout

So you think it'a a coincidence that AP, AFP, Reuters, Getty Images and Aljazeera were all on the scene to report on a routine Israeli tree trimming?

That's what bothers me the most.

147 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:34pm

re: #131 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So completely useless by design, except as shields for Lebanese troops to hide behind.

Yes? The idea behind peacekeepers is more or less "put soldiers from a 3rd party that neither side wants to kill in the middle of a cease fire".

I gotta say, after reading this thread I am some fucking glad that Canada isn't risking a single soldier there.

148 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:56:36pm

re: #139 researchok

The UN did not try to stop the event from occurring.

The only became involved when it became clear the Israelis would inflict major damage on the Lebanese forces.

That has been the UN pattern for decades. Violence becomes a priority only when it becomes clear Israel will dominate the confrontation. The UN is never there to voice concern when Arabs initiate the hostilities.

The UN is saying that the Arabs initiated the hostilities, in this case.

So how about that?

149 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:57:04pm

Apparently "observer" means "omnipotent genocidal maniac who chooses to ally himself with monsters" in LGF land.

I'm out, going home to eat dinner. I'll come back when the topic is something that inspires more light than heat.

150 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:57:05pm

re: #129 Obdicut

The Arab states need Arab deaths to maintain power, as well.

However, there are still plenty of good people who work for and at the UN, and the peace-keepers really do put their lives on the line in countries they have no attachment to.

When they aren't selling 14 year old girls as sex saves in the former Yugoslavia, colluding with terrorists or doing nothing while Zimbabwe did a genocide.

151 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:57:10pm

re: #142 LudwigVanQuixote

Heard there was something happening, headed over? I'd imagine everyone has some reporters pretty close to the scene.

Yeah I'm speculating, but so are you.

152 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:57:38pm

re: #143 windsagio

So now all the major western news agencies are in on the plot too?

JUST HOW FAR DOES IT GO?!?!?!?!

Um, the hatred of Israel and the championing (is that a word?) of the Palestinians, a hatred that seems to disregard facts, is not exactly a hidden plot. It's right out in the open.

153 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:03pm

re: #104 windsagio

heh so the IDF is saying the UN said it was unwarranted?

Of course it was!

~~~

I still think the soldiers just got confused by the fence/border thing... makes the most sense.

The Israelis did not cross any border. They were on their own side. The Lebanese shot across the border at the Israeli side. The fence does not mark the border!

154 Obdicut  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:04pm

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

When they aren't selling 14 year old girls as sex saves in the former Yugoslavia, colluding with terrorists or doing nothing while Zimbabwe did a genocide.

Oh for fuck's sake. Yeah, every UN soldier is an evil, leering, pedophile pimp genocide enabler.

If even you are like this, I'm out of the thread too.

155 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:10pm

re: #140 lawhawk

UN SCR 1701 requires UNIFIL to disarm all militias operating in Lebanon South of the Litani River and to enforce the demilitarization of the area other than the Lebanese military. It has repeatedly failed to do so, and its failures directly led to the Hizbullah war in 2006. Hizbullah was confident in its ability to repulse an Israeli attack because they had built up their bunkers and terror infrastructure throughout Southern Lebanon and up to and including right under UNIFIL's nose - using UNIFIL positions to shield themselves from Israeli attack (or attempted to do so).

Hizbullah has previously admitted to violating SCR 1701 by accepting missiles from Syria, but UNIFIL has failed to disarm, let alone maintain the peace along the border.

It is laughable that Lebanon is calling on the UN to act against Israel for violations of SCR 1701 here, when it is clearly someone on the Lebanese side of the border who precipitated the attack and Israel was well within its sovereign rights to defend itself.

I see this as yet another probing attack along the lines of the flotilla raid to test Israel's resolve to protect itself and its borders.

Excellent post! I also think you are exactly correct about the overall motivations here.

156 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:11pm

re: #151 windsagio

Heard there was something happening, headed over? I'd imagine everyone has some reporters pretty close to the scene.

Yeah I'm speculating, but so are you.

Its easy. If they're dead and not in an IDF uniform, they're "Hezzie". Helps some posters sleep at night.

157 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:14pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

The reporter was there for what purpose? He was a Hezzie propagandist who wanted some nice photos of dead Jews. I rather hope his demise hurt before he went to hell.

LOL!...ouch

158 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:15pm

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

When they aren't selling 14 year old girls as sex saves in the former Yugoslavia, colluding with terrorists or doing nothing while Zimbabwe did a genocide.

Unfortunately,, those ARE the 'good ones"

The bad ones are far worse !!!

159 Ericus58  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:40pm

re: #88 Max D. Reinhardt

But the Palestinians don't want peace, they want war. They've shown this over and over, in 1948, 1967, 1993, and 2000.

don't forget '73 - that was the closest they came.

160 dummnutzer  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:58:41pm

re: #94 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Negligent, incompetent or complicit. Those are the only terms that come to mind to when describing UNFIL troops.

So I suppose that the German ships and sailors supporting this UN mission are also negligent, incompetent or complacent.

Assuming that this is true, one has to wonder why the Israeli PM appealed to the German chancellor to deploy said units despite massive popular resistance in Germany. But what does the Israeli government know ...

Insulting NATO-allies serving in rather thankless UN missions surely is a great way to improve the image of the US.

161 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:59:05pm

re: #148 Obdicut

The UN is saying that the Arabs initiated the hostilities, in this case.

So how about that?

Yes, they are saying that after the fact- and incontrovertible evidence they did nothing to stop the hostilities from starting, despite their being on the scene.

It's called saving face- as if the UN might ever be capable of doing that.

UN credibility in the region- and elsewhere- is quickly approaching zilch.

162 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:59:05pm

re: #149 Fozzie Bear

Apparently "observer" means "omnipotent genocidal maniac who chooses to ally himself with monsters" in LGF land.

I'm out, going home to eat dinner. I'll come back when the topic is something that inspires more light than heat.

Actually, in this case, it means consistent failures who put convenience over duty.

163 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:59:43pm

re: #132 windsagio

How about that they intentionally look the other way at the times most inconvenient for Israel and the Jewish people?

164 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:59:53pm

I'm out too, have fun with your echo chamber.

Ban-Ki Moon only eats children AFTER he rapes them!

165 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 1:59:59pm

re: #143 windsagio

So now all the major western news agencies are in on the plot too?

JUST HOW FAR DOES IT GO?!?!?!?!

Yes. The local stringers are very friendly to Hezbolah and hamas. Remember adnan hajj? How about the Reuters cropping scandal on the flotilla?

166 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:05pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. Yeah, every UN soldier is an evil, leering, pedophile pimp genocide enabler.

If even you are like this, I'm out of the thread too.

And yet, the sex slave ring was real and widespread. The blue helmuts do nothing about terrorist arms shipments and many have taken terrorist kickback money to do even less, and they really did do nothing in Zimbabwe and are still not even dispatched to do nothing in Darfur.

167 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:18pm

re: #145 Gus 802

This link works better.

[Link: maps.google.com...]

Lebanon is on the left (west).

Ah, thanks.

168 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:20pm

I see this as yet another probing attack along the lines of the flotilla raid to test Israel's resolve to protect itself and its borders.

and we know how some people here felt about that dustup
spit

169 Fozzie Bear  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:34pm

On this subject, you guys are fucking nuts.

I like most of you, but this is just paranoia speaking. Have a good night, all, I'll be back tomorrow.

170 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:57pm

re: #164 windsagio

I'm out too, have fun with your echo chamber.

Ban-Ki Moon only eats children AFTER he rapes them!

All caps and all bold is usually a sign of either defeat or craziness (or in this case both).

171 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:00:57pm

re: #164 windsagio

I'm out too, have fun with your echo chamber.

Ban-Ki Moon only eats children AFTER he rapes them!

Keep fighting the good fight, I'm logging off before I flounce. I had it typed out, but I deleted it after this post made me laugh.

LVQ: if you could delete my contact info that would be appreciated.

172 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:01:22pm

re: #141 marjoriemoon

The UN is notoriously anti-Israel. Explain why millions of Arab refugees receive UNWRA funds, that would be refugee funding while they are residents in Arab countries. In other words, how can you be a refugee while living in your own country? The truth is that these countries (Egypt, Jordan and Syria) do not want responsibilities for their "refugees" and won't pay for them. So the UN does it. Meanwhile, millions of Christians have been burned and tortured out of their villages in Africa. Real honest-to-god refugees and are still wandering the desert with little UN help.

How much does the UN give to the orphans and widows of murdered Israelis? Zero. To hell with the UN.

Why did the UN make a resolution to allow Palestinians reparations for Israeli land and income when the Jews never got reparations for the Arab lands THEY were kicked out of with nothing but the shirt on their backs?

[Link: www.unwatch.org...]

List of UN resolutions concerning Israel. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Where are the Arab resolutions? Meanwhile, the Arab countries have some of the worst human rights violations on the planet.

To hell with the UN.

Another excellent post.

173 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:01:39pm

re: #143 windsagio

So now all the major western news agencies are in on the plot too?

JUST HOW FAR DOES IT GO?!?!?!?!

you be thankful KT and LVQ are so gentle with you...they are doing you a favor and for it you yell at them....not very nice

174 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:01:43pm

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

175 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:02pm

re: #170 Max D. Reinhardt

All caps and all bold is usually a sign of either defeat or craziness (or in this case both).

/YOU THINK !!11! :)

176 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:08pm

re: #144 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Not the only one. To be expected.

Has Reuters chimed in yet?

177 jaunte  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:14pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Some strange reactions, for sure.

178 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:27pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

As someone who has family and friends serving as Blue Helmets, you can go fuck yourself.

179 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:28pm

re: #171 McSpiff

Keep fighting the good fight, I'm logging off before I flounce. I had it typed out, but I deleted it after this post made me laugh.

LVQ: if you could delete my contact info that would be appreciated.

What for not siding with terrorists who murdered a fellow Jew? Well then fuck you and the horse you are riding out on.

180 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:29pm

re: #154 Obdicut

Oh for fuck's sake. Yeah, every UN soldier is an evil, leering, pedophile pimp genocide enabler.

If even you are like this, I'm out of the thread too.

hahaha that's all the license I need to get the fuck out of here too

Someone give me a call when the insane is over

181 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

On this subject, you guys are fucking nuts.

I like most of you, but this is just paranoia speaking. Have a good night, all, I'll be back tomorrow.

You know who else is "paranoid"?

Gilad Shalit family

Those fucking nuts!!

(sigh)

182 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:38pm

re: #176 MandyManners

Has Reuters chimed in yet?

The photos are not "done" yet.

183 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:44pm

re: #150 LudwigVanQuixote

When they aren't selling 14 year old girls as sex saves in the former Yugoslavia, colluding with terrorists or doing nothing while Zimbabwe did a genocide.

DING!

184 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:02:48pm

re: #160 dummnutzer

So I suppose that the German ships and sailors supporting this UN mission are also negligent, incompetent or complacent.

Assuming that this is true, one has to wonder why the Israeli PM appealed to the German chancellor to deploy said units despite massive popular resistance in Germany. But what does the Israeli government know ...

Insulting NATO-allies serving in rather thankless UN missions surely is a great way to improve the image of the US.

Their mission has been to keep Hezzballah from rearming. That has failed utterly. So how does that help improve the peacekeeper's image?

185 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:13pm

re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote

Another excellent post.

Some folks wish to believe that all is good and sweet and flying unicorns in the world. That the United Nations was set up to be fair and honest in all dealings with all people. Unfortunately it has not been. What Israel would give to make it so and make it fair.

But people will continue to believe in the flying unicorns anyway.

186 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:25pm

re: #179 LudwigVanQuixote

What for not siding with terrorists who murdered a fellow Jew? Well then fuck you and the horse you are riding out on.

Go fuck yourself you loon.

187 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:28pm

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

On this subject, you guys are fucking nuts.

I like most of you, but this is just paranoia speaking. Have a good night, all, I'll be back tomorrow.

Youtube Video
188 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:30pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

A lot of the older ones too!

189 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:03:45pm

re: #148 Obdicut

The UN is saying that the Arabs initiated the hostilities, in this case.

So how about that?

think of it as a percentage of a whole number

190 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:04:11pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

Read KOS, Huffington, it's the same thing. Like a mental block.

191 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:04:23pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

I'm still waiting for the counter facts. I've provided several pieces of information and accounts. Even UNIFIL is saying that LAF acted inappropriately.

192 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:05:36pm

re: #179 LudwigVanQuixote

What for not siding with terrorists who murdered a fellow Jew? Well then fuck you and the horse you are riding out on.

If you'd like I could arrange for you to meet a friend of mine. He still attends rehab for the damage that serb shell did to him. Maybe you could explain to him that he was really just raping kids instead of serving with honor in Yugoslavia? You fucking creep.

193 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:00pm

brb

194 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:04pm

Might be able to find some counter "facts" here:

[Link: www.presstv.com...]

///

195 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:08pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Read KOS, Huffington, it's the same thing. Like a mental block.

kinda scary...

196 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:13pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

they all marched off like ants
left right
left right

197 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:18pm

When did "fighting the good fight" become chiming outdated pro-Palestinian talking points?

I highly recommend that "windsagio" and "McSpiff" read Alan Dershowitz's The Case For Israel.

198 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:19pm

re: #191 Gus 802

I'm still waiting for the counter facts. I've provided several pieces of information and accounts. Even UNIFIL is saying that LAF acted inappropriately.

Gus... that's a anomaly that makes it impossible to answer. If you present the statements by UNIFIL and then expect counter facts, all that happens is a fuse gets blown and someone has to leave.

Oh... that did happen... I see.

199 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:52pm

re: #170 Max D. Reinhardt

All caps and all bold is usually a sign of either defeat or craziness (or in this case both).

Yeah, bummer he/she departed. I was waiting for him/her to bring up the plight of the Native Americans and how they're so like the poor defenseless Palestinians. You know, because it's so on topic.

200 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:06:56pm

I don't think that the UNIFIL grunts were trying to cover for an ambush. I think they saw a situation getting way out of control, and instead of confronting the mob surrounding them, stupidly and ineffectually started yelling at the Israelis to "stop doing anything." Not exactly laudable, but neither is it evidence of collusion.

201 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:07:06pm

re: #178 McSpiff

As someone who has family and friends serving as Blue Helmets, you can go fuck yourself.

Sorry but the UN presence in the region assists the local terrorists. The fire rockets fron UN schools. A Hamas terrorist who blew himself up last week was on the UN payroll. In southern lebanon they allow the smuggling of weapons by Hezbollah.
Today we see them standing next to Lebanese soldiers as they prepare weapons to ambush Israeli soldiers trimming a tree inside Israel.
I'm sorry if that makes me an asshole of some sort but those are documented facts.

202 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:07:23pm

re: #169 Fozzie Bear

On this subject, you guys are fucking nuts.

I like most of you, but this is just paranoia speaking. Have a good night, all, I'll be back tomorrow.

We're fucking nuts because we support Israel and distrust the UN?

Well, fuck you, too.

203 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:07:32pm

Quick get a blue helmet on the thread. The Lizards are lobbing mortars at each other! //

There is a distinct difference between the UN leadership (inept and corrupt) and he soldiers they drip into these conflicts with little or no authority to do anything real (cannon fodder) and the terrorist states that are very good at manipulating the UNs impotency for their own ends.

204 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:07:50pm

re: #155 LudwigVanQuixote

And UN SCR 1701 directly references the previous UN SCR requiring the disarmament of Hizbullah and all militias in Southern Lebanon - 1559.

The UN has repeatedly shown indifference to disarming Hizbullah or patrolling the border to prevent attacks against Israel. And that's being charitable as several attacks against Israel have come using UNIFIL positions as "human shields" or even using UN trucks/vehicles as a lure to get Israeli forces to let down their guard.

As for why the media was present when this incident occurred, it is possible that they were there merely to tag along with a UN tour of the area, and they came upon this situation near the border. It still doesn't explain why UNIFIL did nothing to stop Lebanese forces from firing on Israelis or why they appear to be willing to let the Lebanese troops set up directly across from the Israelis working near the border.

205 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:07:51pm

Came back for you spiff, don't let them get to you.

Take a walk, hate to lose you over some stupid shit like this :)

206 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:08:29pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

Please, don't tell me you've just now noticed, Kilgore.

207 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:08:37pm

re: #197 Max D. Reinhardt

You should post the "Troll Hammer" too!

No wait, nekama got banned for being fucking nuts!

208 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:08:38pm

re: #191 Gus 802

I'm still waiting for the counter facts. I've provided several pieces of information and accounts. Even UNIFIL is saying that LAF acted inappropriately.

Yes, I'm still waiting to a better explanation why every major news organization was there to cover the Israelis trimming a tree.

209 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:08:48pm

re: #111 Obdicut

No, it doesn't make sense to respond to a border crossing with gunfire, prior to any warnings or contact.

What border crossing, pray tell?

210 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:08:59pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

Facts are often anathema to critics of Israel.

Far too many on the left engage in real cognitive redefinition when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians/Arabs.

If the Palestinians are somehow justified in their behavior, then Israel is somehow wrong for defending herself.

If the Israelis are really evil and cruel, the Palestinians must somehow be innocent victims.

That is why many on the left have to go to great lengths to deny reality. Oliver Stone wants to tell us Hitler and Stalin weren't really so bad and that they were 'misunderstood'. Consequently, we must have been in the wrong to despise Hitler and Nazis. The same applies to Stalin. If somehow the murder of 20 million plus Russians was merely 'unfortunate' then our revulsion of Communism was misplaced.

If evil can somehow be mitigated than good becomes relative as opposed to absolute.

211 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:09:46pm

re: #205 windsagio

Came back for you spiff, don't let them get to you.

Take a walk, hate to lose you over some stupid shit like this :)

Go for it... facts be damn... full speed ahead... thunk!

212 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:10:08pm

re: #182 Radicchio ad Absurdum

The photos are not "done" yet.

LOLOLOL!

213 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:10:31pm

re: #211 Walter L. Newton

shush :p you should be enjoying htis.


I'm gonna try to escape again, no good can come from this.

*LETS HOPE I MAKE IT!*

214 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:10:54pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Yes, I'm still waiting to a better explanation why every major news organization was there to cover the Israelis trimming a tree.

slow news day?
environmentalist angle??

215 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:11:35pm

UNIFIL definitely has a bad record in relation to Israel, but in this case they did come out and say Lebanon's attack was unwarranted. That's an admission that the tree trimming was on Israel's side of the border.

216 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:11:41pm

re: #210 researchok

Excellent. Thanks!

217 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:11:48pm

re: #213 windsagio

shush :p you should be enjoying htis.

I'm gonna try to escape again, no good can come from this.

*LETS HOPE I MAKE IT!*


my payers are with you...

218 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:11:52pm

re: #192 McSpiff

If you'd like I could arrange for you to meet a friend of mine. He still attends rehab for the damage that serb shell did to him. Maybe you could explain to him that he was really just raping kids instead of serving with honor in Yugoslavia? You fucking creep.

Look, I am not saying that every blue helmet is inherently evil. However, some unicorn fairy tale vision of what they as an organization do and do not do will not help in discussing the realities of this situation.

The blue helmets - if under American command generally do their jobs. If the US is not involved they are at best rendered impotent by rules of engagement that make them useless - as in the case of Zimbabwe - where the repeated pleas of the Canadian commander to take action led to his sacking and the withdrawal of the blue helmets - thus ensuring more violence in the genocide. At worst, there are plenty of corrupt blue helmets who openly collude with the bad guys they are supposed to keep in line. This was the case of the sex slave ring and it is absolutely the case with UNIFIL.

219 justaminute  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:12:13pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

Hmmm, a lot of the new lefty lizards have a hard time discussing the facts when it comes to Israel.

I don't mind it. It just if something point doesn't reflect well on Israel some don't want to really discuss it. For instance, the Israeli judge that sentenced the Arab Israeli to 15 months in prison after 2 years under house arrest for rape by deception of that Jewish girl.

220 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:12:20pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Yes, I'm still waiting to a better explanation why every major news organization was there to cover the Israelis trimming a tree.

The photographers may or may not have a long running contract with major news orgs. So you can find a lot of different photographers selling their photos to AP, Reuters, AFP, etc. That being said it's highly suspicious to have seen so many photographers including videographers at the scene. It's well known that there are Hezbollah elements within the LAF. The UN troops we saw screaming in on of the other videos appear to be from Indonesia.

221 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:12:33pm

re: #197 Max D. Reinhardt

When did "fighting the good fight" become chiming outdated pro-Palestinian talking points?

I highly recommend that "windsagio" and "McSpiff" read Alan Dershowitz's The Case For Israel.

Oh that Alan Dershowitz, he's such a wingnut!
/

222 dummnutzer  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:12:52pm

re: #184 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Their mission has been to keep Hezzballah from rearming. That has failed utterly. So how does that help improve the peacekeeper's image?

Look at their ROE based on the UN mandate: They are not allowed to act independently, but have to inform Lebanese Customs and the Lebanese Army about suspicious ships and support the Lebanese. There seems to be no enthusiasm on the Lebanese side to use the German support assets.

But the Israelis knew about this setup when they specifically asked for German ships. So I am waiting for your ridicule directed at the Israelis ... we did not want to go there, but the Israelis insisted.

223 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:13:01pm

re: #208 Killgore Trout

Yes, I'm still waiting to a better explanation why every major news organization was there to cover the Israelis trimming a tree.


It wasn't to observe Christmas in Israel in August - that's for fracking sure.

224 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:13:18pm

re: #178 McSpiff

Some contingents of UN forces have acted honorably and done well in their missions. Unfortunately, there are quite a few high profile operations during which the UN forces acted in such a heinous manner that the UN lost whatever moral controlling authority one could hope to attach to such missions.

That includes the multiple problems with UNIFIL. And UNRWA being a shill and front for Hamas and other terror operations.

That includes the problems with the Sudan mission, where the UN enabled the Sudanese and janjaweed to raid UN operated refugee camps.

That includes the emergency sex and sex scandals by various contingents while on UN relief missions to provide security for refugees.

Those are the facts.

225 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:13:23pm

re: #215 Charles

UNIFIL definitely has a bad record in relation to Israel, but in this case they did come out and say Lebanon's attack was unwarranted. That's an admission that the tree trimming was on Israel's side of the border.

If they were observing any LAF activity prior to the incident, wouldn't they be obligated to report it to the IDF? If they didn't, would they be at fault?

226 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:13:45pm

re: #219 justaminute

I don't mind it. It just if something point doesn't reflect well on Israel some don't want to really discuss it. For instance, the Israeli judge that sentenced the Arab Israeli to 15 months in prison after 2 years under house arrest for rape by deception of that Jewish girl.

I don't see anyone here defending that stupidity. But what does that have to do with what happened today on the Lebanese border?

227 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:14:00pm

re: #215 Charles

UNIFIL definitely has a bad record in relation to Israel, but in this case they did come out and say Lebanon's attack was unwarranted. That's an admission that the tree trimming was on Israel's side of the border.

According to the Isreallycool page there are photographs of UNIFIL cooperating with the Lebanese attackers. Top featured page at the moment. What should we make of that? "Bad record" indeed!! Very strange conduct.

228 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:14:36pm

re: #124 eclectic infidel

Yup.

* 300 square miles of the West Bank were evacuated.

*21 Israeli settlements were uprooted in the Gaza Strip

*4 Israeli settlements were uprooted in the "West Bank."

*48 graves in the Gush Katif Cemetery, including six graves of area residents murdered by terrorists, were uprooted and moved.

*9,000 Israelis, including 1,700 Israeli families, were expelled.

*38 synagogues were dismantled in the Gaza Strip. Most were torched by the Arabs afterward.

*5,000 school-age children left their schools
:
*42 daycare centers were closed in Gaza alone.

*36 kindergartens were closed.

*7 elementary schools were closed.

*3 high schools were closed.

*10,000 people employed in agriculture and related industries in Gush Katif, including 5,000 Arabs, lost their livelihood.

* 166 active Israeli farmers were expelled.

*800 cows were moved.

*1 zoo, the Katifari, that housed hundreds of animals, was moved.

*$120 million in flowers and produce exported annually from Gush Katif. Lost.

*60% of Israel's cherry tomato exports came from Gaza. Lost.

* 3.5 million square meters (almost 1,000 acres) of greenhouses. Lost.

*70% of Israel's organic produce was produced in Gaza. Lost.

*60% of the herbs exported from Israel came from Gush Katif. Lost.

*15% of Israel's agricultural exports originated in Gaza. Lost.

*45,000 Israeli soldiers and policemen participated in the expulsion.

*$500 million was the amount of money Israel’s security establishment spent in order to relocate Israel Defense Forces bases outside the Gaza Strip and build new border crossing facilities
.
*$870 million was the approximate cost for Israel to facilitate the resettlement of former West Bank and Gaza residents elsewhere in the country

*$360,000 was the approximate average compensation amount Israel expected to pay to relocate each family.

*$1.7 billion was the approximate cost to the Israeli government for the withdrawal initiative.

From: HOW DARE SHE?

Another awesome post.

229 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:14:46pm

re: #190 Walter L. Newton

Read KOS, Huffington, it's the same thing. Like a mental block.

they are young...spoon fed Free Palistine! so long, they never will see any rationale to Israels behavior....no big loss imo, but it sort of shoots down the old "I'm here to learn" meme....they already know what they know

230 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:14:58pm

re: #209 ryannon

Not only did the Israelis not cross the border, but they specifically contacted UNIFIL to warn that they were going to be operating near the border on Israeli territory.

231 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:15:35pm

re: #221 Alouette

Oh that Alan Dershowitz, he's such a wingnut!
/

Yeah, what a far right Zionist mouth piece. He supports (gasp!) a two-state solution! Ahh!

232 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:15:43pm

re: #222 dummnutzer

Look at their ROE based on the UN mandate: They are not allowed to act independently, but have to inform Lebanese Customs and the Lebanese Army about suspicious ships and support the Lebanese. There seems to be no enthusiasm on the Lebanese side to use the German support assets.

But the Israelis knew about this setup when they specifically asked for German ships. So I am waiting for your ridicule directed at the Israelis ... we did not want to go there, but the Israelis insisted.

The Israelis were stupid for trusting the UN and letting peacekeepers in again. I said that during the Hezzballah war and I say it now.

233 justaminute  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:15:47pm

re: #226 Alouette

I don't see anyone here defending that stupidity. But what does that have to do with what happened today on the Lebanese border?

Because it was mentioned that we new Lizards disappear when Israel is under discussion.

234 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:16:07pm

re: #218 LudwigVanQuixote

Look, I am not saying that every blue helmet is inherently evil. However, some unicorn fairy tale vision of what they as an organization do and do not do will not help in discussing the realities of this situation.

The blue helmets - if under American command generally do their jobs. If the US is not involved they are at best rendered impotent by rules of engagement that make them useless - as in the case of Zimbabwe - where the repeated pleas of the Canadian commander to take action led to his sacking and the withdrawal of the blue helmets - thus ensuring more violence in the genocide. At worst, there are plenty of corrupt blue helmets who openly collude with the bad guys they are supposed to keep in line. This was the case of the sex slave ring and it is absolutely the case with UNIFIL.

For clarity- I believe you are referring to Gen Romeo D'Aillaire, head on UN troops in Rwanda.

235 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:16:32pm

re: #201 Killgore Trout

Sorry but the UN presence in the region assists the local terrorists. The fire rockets fron UN schools. A Hamas terrorist who blew himself up last week was on the UN payroll. In southern lebanon they allow the smuggling of weapons by Hezbollah.
Today we see them standing next to Lebanese soldiers as they prepare weapons to ambush Israeli soldiers trimming a tree inside Israel.
I'm sorry if that makes me an asshole of some sort but those are documented facts.

The recently killed Hamas leader was a teacher employed by te U.N..

236 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:16:52pm

re: #230 lawhawk

Not only did the Israelis not cross the border, but they specifically contacted UNIFIL to warn that they were going to be operating near the border on Israeli territory.

bet they won't do that again...

237 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:17:19pm

re: #205 windsagio

Came back for you spiff, don't let them get to you.

Take a walk, hate to lose you over some stupid shit like this :)

Discussing terrorists once again attacking Israel is STUPID SHIT?

238 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:17:55pm

Later that night...

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Hmmm.

239 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:18:04pm

re: #205 windsagio

Came back for you spiff, don't let them get to you.

Take a walk, hate to lose you over some stupid shit like this :)

people dying is hardly stupid shit....consider your own closed minded attitude as stupid shit...try replying to Lawhawk or LVQ

240 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:18:09pm

re: #234 researchok

For clarity- I believe you are referring to Gen Romeo D'Aillaire, head on UN troops in Rwanda.

Don't let facts get in the way.

241 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:19:13pm

re: #192 McSpiff

Okay, let's slow down.

Sometimes very good people end up working for terrible organizations. It happens.

A good case could be made that the UN is the most corrupt organization in the world, not counting organizations whose mission statement is to be corrupt, like organized crime.

I don't think anyone is saying--after careful review of all of the data, in comparison to the same data gathered from all organizations in the world, the UN is without question completely and thoroughly corrupt all the way down to the vendor who sells them shoelaces.

We're just saying it's bad, and that it in no way does what it claims to represent. And that can be documented.

As far as the Western press goes--the Arab world physically intimidates, bribes, kidnaps, until they basically get the reporters on the ground that are favorable to their viewpoint. And those reporters understand what side their bread is buttered on. If they want their jobs, and their lives, they will say what they are expected to say. It's not that difficult to figure out what point of view that is.

And now it's to the point where it's not even a matter of duress. Those reporters want to get out that point of view, they don't even want to be objective or impartial.

And that's pretty much the way the chessboard looks.

242 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:19:51pm

re: #219 justaminute

I get it now.... you are arguing that a particular harsh sentence on the part of Israel - and the fact that similar laws have convicted Israeli Jews for lying to get sex - absolutely makes Israel so morally repugnant that the soldiers deserved to be murdered by cross border sniper fire. You are arguing that Israel, even though it is the place where women have equal rights and in fact have better protections than US women do - is so morally repulsive for applying the same legal standard to an Arab as it does to Jews caught by the same law is obviously morally worse than arabs who stone people for being gay - so much so that those men deserved to be murdered.


Fuck you. Get bent.

243 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:20:04pm
Youtube Video

You can hear the Indonesian UNIFIL contingent shouting for the Israelis to stop working near the border, and then someone from on the Lebanese side opened fire. Israel responded to protect itself.

244 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:20:13pm

From the video you can see what the Israelis were doing -- the fence was built to protect a road on the Israeli side, near the border, from being a staging ground for ambushes. They were clearing the tree because it could be used for cover and to get over the fence. They weren't just trimming it to improve the ambience of the neighborhood.

245 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:20:21pm

re: #240 McSpiff

Don't let facts get in the way.

He may have erred in a particular detail, but in point of fact, his overall assertions are right on the money.

246 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:20:26pm

UN wipes Israel off the map.

247 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:21:08pm

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

I get it now... you are arguing that a particular harsh sentence on the part of Israel - and the fact that similar laws have convicted Israeli Jews for lying to get sex - absolutely makes Israel so morally repugnant that the soldiers deserved to be murdered by cross border sniper fire. You are arguing that Israel, even though it is the place where women have equal rights and in fact have better protections than US women do - is so morally repulsive for applying the same legal standard to an Arab as it does to Jews caught by the same law is obviously morally worse than arabs who stone people for being gay - so much so that those men deserved to be murdered.

Fuck you. Get bent.

Or, bent over.

248 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:21:16pm

re: #215 Charles

UNIFIL definitely has a bad record in relation to Israel, but in this case they did come out and say Lebanon's attack was unwarranted. That's an admission that the tree trimming was on Israel's side of the border.

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

249 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:22:26pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

need to earn that bonus check from Hez

250 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:22:40pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

They knew the IDF would be more likely not to shoot them.

251 zora  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:23:18pm

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

I get it now... you are arguing that a particular harsh sentence on the part of Israel - and the fact that similar laws have convicted Israeli Jews for lying to get sex - absolutely makes Israel so morally repugnant that the soldiers deserved to be murdered by cross border sniper fire. You are arguing that Israel, even though it is the place where women have equal rights and in fact have better protections than US women do - is so morally repulsive for applying the same legal standard to an Arab as it does to Jews caught by the same law is obviously morally worse than arabs who stone people for being gay - so much so that those men deserved to be murdered.

Fuck you. Get bent.

i can't believe you read the same comment that was posted. she said no such things. wow.

252 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:23:25pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Later that night...

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Hmmm.

Yup.

253 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:23:50pm

re: #246 MandyManners

UN wipes Israel off the map.

Pish posh - merely a mapping error./

254 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:23:58pm

re: #250 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

They knew the IDF would be more likely not to shoot them.

They were at risk of a severe pruning by the IDF tree surgeons. /

255 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:24:17pm

re: #244 Charles

The Israeli fence along the border with Lebanon is actually typically a double fence with both fences located within Israel. That's so Israel can provide a clear area of fire should terrorists attempt to infiltrate (as they've done previously (Goldwasser and Regev - in the runup to the Hizbullah war). It also allows Israel to better monitor the border. The tree was hung up on the fence, which would interfere with the Israeli monitoring equipment on the fence to detect whether terrorists are attempting to infiltrate into Israel.

256 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:24:22pm

re: #251 zora

i can't believe you read the same comment that was posted. she said no such things. wow.

The topic is the IDF vs the UN. Don't expect rational posts. The UN is literally the worst organization in the world according to this thread.

257 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:24:24pm

Hey, Windupbird, remember this?

258 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:24:46pm

re: #238 Gus 802

Later that night...

[Link: www.daylife.com...]

Hmmm.

Image: x910.jpg

259 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:24:54pm

I think maybe it is time to limit the UN's role to disaster relief and such... the peace keeping thing just isn't working.

260 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:25:02pm

re: #256 McSpiff

The topic is the IDF vs the UN. Don't expect rational posts. The UN is literally the worst organization in the world according to this thread.

Now you seem to be getting it.

261 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:25:08pm

re: #253 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Pish posh - merely a mapping error./

Ditto with the flags.

262 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:25:28pm

re: #252 Killgore Trout

Hizbullah is hoping to jump ugly with Israel and is saying all the usual things to run up.

263 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:26:06pm

re: #258 Charles

Image: x910.jpg

Hey look, "2 Minute Hate" is on!

/(God, I wish I was joking)

264 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:26:15pm

re: #260 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Now you seem to be getting it.

I'm just observing for now. Trying to decide if this is a website I want myself associated with.

265 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:26:29pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

The Blue Helmets are there to protect the trees!

266 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:26:35pm

re: #261 MandyManners

Ditto with the flags.

uh . . .oh yeah . . . those too.

267 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:26:50pm

re: #168 albusteve

I see this as yet another probing attack along the lines of the flotilla raid to test Israel's resolve to protect itself and its borders.

and we know how some people here felt about that dustup
spit

If nothing else, by their conspicuous absence.

268 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:16pm

re: #256 McSpiff

The topic is the IDF vs the UN. Don't expect rational posts. The UN is literally the worst organization in the world according to this thread.

Nahhh ,,,

I can think of three that are worse,,

Wait ,, make that two!

269 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:21pm

re: #265 sattv4u2

The Blue Helmets are there to protect the trees!

No that's the Greens. Have you been checked for color blindness? /

270 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:36pm

That's a lot of people watching Nasrallah on that giant screen:

Image: 910x.jpg

271 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:38pm

re: #265 sattv4u2

The Blue Helmets are there to protect the trees!

And they can add that to their long list of failures.

272 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:42pm

re: #256 McSpiff

The topic is the IDF vs the UN. Don't expect rational posts. The UN is literally the worst organization in the world according to this thread.

it is according to me....how much is your life worth?

273 justaminute  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:27:50pm

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

Temper, temper, if the UN came out and supported bombing Iran on Israels behalf or Israel bombed Iran and it killed some of my family I am sure you would be singing a different tune.

274 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:02pm

re: #272 albusteve

it is according to me...how much is your life worth?

...is that a threat?

275 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:14pm

re: #259 brookly red

I think maybe it is time to limit the UN's role to disaster relief and such... the peace keeping thing just isn't working.

It never has. When you've got "peacekeepers" who either sympathize with or are on the take from the local thugs, then they might as well not be there or wearing the thugs colors.

276 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:17pm

re: #242 LudwigVanQuixote

I get it now... you are arguing that a particular harsh sentence on the part of Israel - and the fact that similar laws have convicted Israeli Jews for lying to get sex - absolutely makes Israel so morally repugnant that the soldiers deserved to be murdered by cross border sniper fire. You are arguing that Israel, even though it is the place where women have equal rights and in fact have better protections than US women do - is so morally repulsive for applying the same legal standard to an Arab as it does to Jews caught by the same law is obviously morally worse than arabs who stone people for being gay - so much so that those men deserved to be murdered.

Fuck you. Get bent.

I don't get it. Where did anyone say that?

277 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:19pm

re: #219 justaminute

I don't mind it. It just if something point doesn't reflect well on Israel some don't want to really discuss it. For instance, the Israeli judge that sentenced the Arab Israeli to 15 months in prison after 2 years under house arrest for rape by deception of that Jewish girl.

I owe you an apology. I just read your whole exchange. That people would bring up such distractions and loony false equivalences makes my blood boil. I can see in context that you were not necessarily supporting them. So, I apologize.

278 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:32pm

re: #272 albusteve

it is according to me...how much is your life worth?

worse that the feds?

279 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:36pm

re: #256 McSpiff

If only the UN acted rationally towards Israel and treated Israel just as every other country on the planet. No other country would get singled out for defending itself the way Israel has. Where was the 100s of resolutions condemning Russia for invading Georgia and South Ossetia? The amount of energy devoted to the Sudanese genocide is a fraction of that spent on the Palestinians in Gaza - despite that Sudan saw hundreds of thousands murdered.

Rwanda was even worse.

And yet the UN continues to put Israel in its own category where it cannot defend itself from terrorists and those same terrorists use the UN as a shield against attacks.

280 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:37pm

re: #265 sattv4u2
Lorax!

281 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:28:49pm

re: #251 zora

i can't believe you read the same comment that was posted. she said no such things. wow.

I re-read the context of what she wrote. You have a point and I apologized.

282 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:01pm

re: #269 DaddyG

No that's the Greens. Have you been checked for color blindness? /

Yes. My eye doctors office is right at the set of lights.

When I see the light turn purple, I take a left then I'm there!

283 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:04pm

re: #270 Charles

That's a lot of people watching Nasrallah on that giant screen:

Image: 910x.jpg

are you sure it's not a Stones concert?

284 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:17pm

re: #264 McSpiff

I'm just observing for now. Trying to decide if this is a website I want myself associated with.

I hope you stay. You're a funny and clever fellow.

The best advice I can offer you is take a break, have some dinner, take a walk and come back when we're talking about something else. There was a time here that I avoided certain conversation altogether. Maybe you have to go there, but I wouldn't like to see you leave, and worse, flounce.

285 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:20pm

re: #270 Charles

That's a lot of people watching Nasrallah on that giant screen:

Image: 910x.jpg

He puts on one hell of a show.

286 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:29pm

re: #274 McSpiff

Dammit spiff, quit looking at it! You want your face to melt like in Raiders of the lost ark?

287 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:41pm

re: #266 Radicchio ad Absurdum

uh . . .oh yeah . . . those too.

How about those UNICEF funds paying for hatred towards Israel?

288 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:29:58pm

re: #274 McSpiff

...is that a threat?

if there is a hidden threat, it'd be coming from the UN

289 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:30:11pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

He puts on one hell of a show.

Wait till the encore and he busts out with "Proud Mary"

290 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:30:19pm

:)
;p
>>
9_9

My last comment here.

Please consider this a flounce.

291 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:30:32pm

re: #259 brookly red

I think maybe it is time to limit the UN's role to disaster relief and such... the peace keeping thing just isn't working.

It can work in a certain limited subset. The original Suez crises is a prime example. These decade long deployments and sending troops in the middle of a war zone or worse and then telling them to ignore years of training is fucking bone headed.

292 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:30:38pm

re: #275 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

It never has. When you've got "peacekeepers" who either sympathize with or are on the take from the local thugs, then they might as well not be there or wearing the thugs colors.

I have said it before, for all the money we dump into the UN we could hire 2 divisions of really, really impartial peace keepers from North Korea. No snark it could work.

293 What, me worry?  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:06pm

Have to exit... stage left :)

i made a funny

be back soon

294 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:06pm

re: #278 brookly red

worse that the feds?

yes, the feds are just incompetent...the UN gets people killed

295 darthstar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:12pm

re: #272 albusteve

it is according to me...how much is your life worth?

Get the UN out of New Mexico!

296 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:14pm

re: #287 MandyManners

How about those UNICEF funds paying for hatred towards Israel?

Well, they house and employ rocket crews, why not lend a hand with advertising as well? UNICEF is there to provide for all their their needs you know.

297 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:16pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

Yes. My eye doctors office is right at the set of lights.

When I see the light turn purple, I take a left then I'm there!

So that was you in the intersection the other day. I just want to point out that the middle finger is a traditional folk greeting where I'm from.

298 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:25pm

The UN's failures are legion.

Think Darfur, Rwanda, Congo, Sierra Leonne and Somalia if Israel is too much to grasp. Then there is the matter of FGM- 100 million have been mutilated according to the same UN sources who will tell you Israel is the priority.

How's that for starters?

299 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:31:35pm

re: #270 Charles

That's a lot of people watching Nasrallah on that giant screen:

Image: 910x.jpg

That reminds me that I've not posted this lately.

Youtube Video
300 Radicchio ad Absurdum  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:04pm

re: #285 Killgore Trout

He puts on one hell of a show.

With a production like that I am surprised Live Nation isn't involved./

301 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:29pm

re: #283 albusteve

are you sure it's not a Stones concert?


Hmmm... lots of old bald guys with beards. You may have a point.

302 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:41pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wait till the encore and he busts out with "Proud Mary"

lets' DANCE!

303 Charles Johnson  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:45pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

That's true -- however, I haven't seen any pictures yet that actually show UNIFIL peacekeepers standing by while weapons were fired. Lebanese soldiers are holding RPGs in those photos, but they're not firing them, or even in real firing position.

I'd be careful about assuming too much from those photos without more evidence.

304 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:58pm

re: #264 McSpiff

I'm just observing for now. Trying to decide if this is a website I want myself associated with.

Critique is a two way street.

That said, what is it about this thread you find so offensive? Are you implying there is a 'party line' that is being crossed here?

305 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:32:58pm

re: #290 Cato No way.... ?!

306 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:01pm

re: #273 justaminute

Temper, temper, if the UN came out and supported bombing Iran on Israels behalf or Israel bombed Iran and it killed some of my family I am sure you would be singing a different tune.

You had to write that... OK I take back the apology.

The Iranian nuclear program threatens much more than Israel. It promises a nuclear arms race between Sunni and Shia while cementing a lock on oil flow to Europe. Israel is more of a piece to be eliminated in a grand plan of regional domination than the ultimate target.

It is not "on Israel's behalf" that such action would be taken.

And yes, Iran is the sort of nation that sent children to stomp on mines in order to clear minefields. They have no more business having atomics than a chimpanzee does having a loaded revolver. In the long run, more lives would be saved by hitting those facilities hard yesterday.

307 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:05pm

The IDF isn't blaming the Lebanese government (even though they would have been held accountable for further escalation by the political wing)

As in previous cases of such Israeli activity, the Lebanese army deployed soldiers to the area. After a round of yelling, unanswered by the Israeli troops, Lebanese snipers opened deliberate fire at the IDF observation post several hundred meters into Israel, the IDF said. Harari and Lakia had manned the observation post, and both sustained serious gunfire wounds.

According to information gathered by the IDF, the sniper fire was ordered by a commanding officer within the Lebanese army. The IDF has found no indication that the officer received an order to open fire, and believe that the decision was his alone. However, it is known that the particular officer was influenced by inciting remarks against Israel made by the top commanders of the Lebanese army in the recent past.

I find it strange in this video, that UNIFIL, notified of what the Israelis were doing, started the "round of yelling" to stop.

Youtube Video

I just don't fully understand UNIFILs involvement here.

308 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:36pm

re: #279 lawhawk

If only the UN acted rationally towards Israel and treated Israel just as every other country on the planet. No other country would get singled out for defending itself the way Israel has. Where was the 100s of resolutions condemning Russia for invading Georgia and South Ossetia? The amount of energy devoted to the Sudanese genocide is a fraction of that spent on the Palestinians in Gaza - despite that Sudan saw hundreds of thousands murdered.

Rwanda was even worse.

And yet the UN continues to put Israel in its own category where it cannot defend itself from terrorists and those same terrorists use the UN as a shield against attacks.

The old double standard.

309 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:44pm

re: #248 Killgore Trout

It's also interesting that the video shows the Blue Helmets on the scene telling the Israelis to stop instead of telling the Lebanese soldiers next to them to not fire.

Only one IDF fatality, I don't get the impression that the LAF opened fire as one cohesive group ambush. Instead it looks like a cluster of nearby observing IDF officers got attacked first as some rogue Hez element's target of opportunity, and then everyone else hopped onboard because they heard gunfire.

310 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:48pm

re: #290 Cato the Elder

:)
;p
>>
9_9

My last comment here.

Please consider this a flounce.

you forgot "LOL"...

311 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:33:50pm

re: #301 DaddyG

Hmmm... lots of old bald guys with beards. You may have a point.

heh...I have lots of hair
grey

312 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:34:32pm

re: #290 Cato the Elder

You're joking, right?

313 Political Atheist  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:35:04pm

re: #303 Charles

That's true -- however, I haven't seen any pictures yet that actually show UNIFIL peacekeepers standing by while weapons were fired. Lebanese soldiers are holding RPGs in those photos, but they're not firing them, or even in real firing position.

I'd be careful about assuming too much from those photos without more evidence.

Point taken.

314 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:35:14pm

re: #234 researchok

For clarity- I believe you are referring to Gen Romeo D'Aillaire, head on UN troops in Rwanda.

Absolutely. I can't believe I typed Zimbabwe.

315 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:35:23pm

re: #296 Radicchio ad Absurdum

Well, they house and employ rocket crews, why not lend a hand with advertising as well? UNICEF is there to provide for all their their needs you know.

Remember the old Allstate ads?

316 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:35:54pm

re: #307 Joo-LiZ

UNIFIL is meant as a go-between along the border to enforce the border. That's part of their job to protect Lebanon's territorial integrity. The problem is that UNIFIL was also supposed to disarm Hizbullah and all the other militias and it's been an abject failure in that department.

Moreover, Hizbullah has coopted the Lebanese government and the military such that their own terrorists are now embedded within the military.

317 avanti  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:37:40pm

re: #76 Killgore Trout

I'm sure the Lebanese Army would welcome your assistance in setting up future ambushes. Americans make the best human shields of all.

I don't know who's assumption is correct, but I see both possibilities.

1. The UN was in on the deal.
2. The UN guys were powerless to do much more than shout at the Israelis after the one soldier crossed the fence in a bucket giving the bad guys a lame excuse to open fire.

No question the Lebanese were looking for a confrontation though.

318 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:37:59pm

re: #306 LudwigVanQuixote

You had to write that... OK I take back the apology.

The Iranian nuclear program threatens much more than Israel. It promises a nuclear arms race between Sunni and Shia while cementing a lock on oil flow to Europe. Israel is more of a piece to be eliminated in a grand plan of regional domination than the ultimate target.

It is not "on Israel's behalf" that such action would be taken.

And yes, Iran is the sort of nation that sent children to stomp on mines in order to clear minefields. They have no more business having atomics than a chimpanzee does having a loaded revolver. In the long run, more lives would be saved by hitting those facilities hard yesterday.

During the Iran-Iraq War, the Ayatollah Khomeini imported 500,000 small plastic keys from Taiwan. The trinkets were meant to be inspirational. After Iraq invaded in September 1980, it had quickly become clear that Iran's forces were no match for Saddam Hussein's professional, well-armed military. To compensate for their disadvantage, Khomeini sent Iranian children, some as young as twelve years old, to the front lines. There, they
The Plastic Keys of the Basiji

319 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:38:28pm

re: #304 researchok

Critique is a two way street.

That said, what is it about this thread you find so offensive? Are you implying there is a 'party line' that is being crossed here?

No, nothing of the sort. My online persona is very closely tied to my real life one. I use the same user name almost everywhere. I also feel strongly that the company you keep says a lot about you. So I just wouldn't want my friends and family to think I'm involved with the type of people that think this is all part of some vast conspiracy about the UN being out to destroy Israel or that all peacekeepers are some sort of lazy, blundering neo-colonial force like some here are trying to paint them. I won't even debate that simple minded argument, but at the same time seeing me associated with it would be extremely hurtful for some people in my life.

That said, Charles has been extremely rational, as usual, so I think I'll stick around.

320 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:38:44pm

re: #316 lawhawk

UNIFIL is meant as a go-between along the border to enforce the border. That's part of their job to protect Lebanon's territorial integrity. The problem is that UNIFIL was also supposed to disarm Hizbullah and all the other militias and it's been an abject failure in that department.

Moreover, Hizbullah has coopted the Lebanese government and the military such that their own terrorists are now embedded within the military.

I just don't understand how their SOP for getting the Israelis attention in real-time is to yell at the top of their lungs in english "STOP STOP! STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING!"

If there was some sort of problem, why wasn't Israel notified when UNIFIL was first told about the plan? Why wasn't their some sort of radio or other means of communication with the Israeli soldiers?

What would have happened if a UN vehicle drove down the hill towards the Israelis to speak to them in person?

I just feel like I am missing a piece of this, before I can entertain the possibility of this whole thing being a genuine misunderstanding

321 darthstar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:38:57pm

Heh...on a lighter note...Check out this exchange between McCaingry and reporters:

TPMDC asked, "Do you support the Minority Leader's push for hearings into the repeal of birthright citizenship?"

"Sure, why not?" McCain said briefly.

"Do you support the idea itself?"

"I support the idea of having hearings," McCain said.

"Do you have a problem with the 14th amendment?" another reporter asked.

"You're changing the constitution of the United States," McCain said. "I support the concept of holding hearings."

"I support the concept of holding hearings," McCain repeated, turning to the rail car conductor.

"Let's go!" he snapped.

"I don't have anything to add to that."


[Link: tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

322 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:39:18pm

re: #317 avanti

Wouldn't UNSCR 1701 give the blue helmets the power to preserve the peace along the Israeli-Lebanese border?

323 Cheese Eating Victory Monkey  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:39:20pm

I found this video on Hebrew Ynet where the UNIFIL soldiers are yelling at the Israeli side in broken English while standing next to Lebanese troops. Not sure what to make of it though.

(There's a 30 second commercial until the footage begins.)

325 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:39:33pm

I am not a fan of the UN and in many cases I think they have become what they were created to prevent.

Having said that the Peacekeepers are in a no win situation. Even with the best intentions (which is a big assumption) they are like the school marm trying to hold two fighting students apart. The kid who doesn't care about the rules will continue taking pot shots at the one who is willing to back down. In the process the best case is a temporary cease fire while the school marm holds the two parties apart. The worst case invovles the "good kid" being restrained while the "bad kid" keeps punching away at everyone including the school marm.

326 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:39:43pm

re: #321 darthstar

The second string just arrived.

327 darthstar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:40:02pm

re: #326 Walter L. Newton

The second string just arrived.

That's second fiddle, mister.

328 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:40:19pm

re: #316 lawhawk

UNIFIL is meant as a go-between along the border to enforce the border. That's part of their job to protect Lebanon's territorial integrity. The problem is that UNIFIL was also supposed to disarm Hizbullah and all the other militias and it's been an abject failure in that department.

Moreover, Hizbullah has coopted the Lebanese government and the military such that their own terrorists are now embedded within the military.

In turn, the UN is protecting Syria and Iran.

329 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:41:31pm

re: #307 Joo-LiZ

The IDF isn't blaming the Lebanese government (even though they would have been held accountable for further escalation by the political wing)

I find it strange in this video, that UNIFIL, notified of what the Israelis were doing, started the "round of yelling" to stop.


[Video]I just don't fully understand UNIFILs involvement here.

There's an edit in that tape. The Blue Helmets are yelling at the Israelis to stop, smal arms fire erupts, edit, then we see the Lebanese soldiers at the railing but the Blue Helmets are gone.

331 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:41:53pm

re: #320 Joo-LiZ
They were yelling at the IDF in English? Is that the standard language of he peacekeeping forces or is this theatre for the west?

332 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:42:16pm

Intel from earlier this year regarding Resolution 1701:

Further Evidence of Hezbollah’s Military Activity: Explosive pits containing dozens of advanced, standard IEDs recently found near the main road to the village of Al-Khiyam in south Lebanon. It is a gross violation of Security Council Resolution 1701, endangering the civilian population and UNIFIL forces operating in the area.


It's a quick read. Scroll down to read about other violations of the resolution.

333 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:42:32pm

re: #324 brookly red

"we have so many boys & so few tanks" IIRC

Attrition is a hell of a way to fight a war, but it is feasible.

334 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:42:34pm

re: #319 McSpiff

No, nothing of the sort. My online persona is very closely tied to my real life one. I use the same user name almost everywhere. I also feel strongly that the company you keep says a lot about you. So I just wouldn't want my friends and family to think I'm involved with the type of people that think this is all part of some vast conspiracy about the UN being out to destroy Israel or that all peacekeepers are some sort of lazy, blundering neo-colonial force like some here are trying to paint them. I won't even debate that simple minded argument, but at the same time seeing me associated with it would be extremely hurtful for some people in my life.

That said, Charles has been extremely rational, as usual, so I think I'll stick around.

The one truth about this blog is that it about independent thinking- no slavery to party or ideological ideals.

As you note, the ideal here is rational and cogent thought. That's what makes LGF unique. Here you find thinkers and not followers.

335 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:42:42pm

re: #319 McSpiff

No, nothing of the sort. My online persona is very closely tied to my real life one. I use the same user name almost everywhere. I also feel strongly that the company you keep says a lot about you. So I just wouldn't want my friends and family to think I'm involved with the type of people that think this is all part of some vast conspiracy about the UN being out to destroy Israel or that all peacekeepers are some sort of lazy, blundering neo-colonial force like some here are trying to paint them. I won't even debate that simple minded argument, but at the same time seeing me associated with it would be extremely hurtful for some people in my life.

That said, Charles has been extremely rational, as usual, so I think I'll stick around.

OK good, then I don't have to stick around and watch Cato chain-ding me (again!).

Be well man!

336 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:42:42pm

I'ma gonna type lik dis to see if I can scrae cato out of is hidiy hole.

337 justaminute  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:43:12pm

re: #277 LudwigVanQuixote

I owe you an apology. I just read your whole exchange. That people would bring up such distractions and loony false equivalences makes my blood boil. I can see in context that you were not necessarily supporting them. So, I apologize.

re: #306 LudwigVanQuixote

I upset. I am new here. I have family there and I read some statements about Iran from Israel first supporters here that are incorrect. But there is such a strong voice for Israel I feel that it is pointless to bring it up and there would be too many go on the attack. You can take it back and I typed that before you sent this.

338 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:43:29pm

re: #290 Cato the Elder

:)
;p
>>
9_9

My last comment here.

Please consider this a flounce.

You forgot
:D

339 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:43:35pm

re: #335 windsagio

OK good, then I don't have to stick around and watch Cato chain-ding me (again!).

Be well man!

I'm good, thanks man. Now scram before you get us into more trouble >>

340 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:43:50pm

re: #329 Killgore Trout

There's an edit in that tape. The Blue Helmets are yelling at the Israelis to stop, smal arms fire erupts, edit, then we see the Lebanese soldiers at the railing but the Blue Helmets are gone.

Yeah, I'm not claiming the video is accurate as far as timeline is concerned.

The point is more about the UNIFIL troops yelling. I don't understand why THAT would be there go-to means of communication.

Unless it was after the first shots were fired.

Hmmm...

341 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:44:04pm

re: #312 MandyManners

You're joking, right?

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

342 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:44:12pm

re: #224 lawhawk

Some contingents of UN forces have acted honorably and done well in their missions. Unfortunately, there are quite a few high profile operations during which the UN forces acted in such a heinous manner that the UN lost whatever moral controlling authority one could hope to attach to such missions.

That includes the multiple problems with UNIFIL. And UNRWA being a shill and front for Hamas and other terror operations.

That includes the problems with the Sudan mission, where the UN enabled the Sudanese and janjaweed to raid UN operated refugee camps.

Rwanda and Bosnia: facilitating a macro and micro genocide by favoritism and inaction.

That includes the emergency sex and sex scandals by various contingents while on UN relief missions to provide security for refugees.

Those are the facts.

343 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:44:25pm

re: #334 researchok

That's what makes LGF unique. Here you find thinkers and not followers.

Yeah- what you said. Ditto. //

344 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:44:44pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

Go or stay.

This prolonged goodbye/hope people beg you not to leave thing is kinda sad.

345 darthstar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:44:45pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

You take this internet shit way too seriously. Just saying...

346 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:45:08pm

re: #337 justaminute

re: #306 LudwigVanQuixote

I upset. I am new here. I have family there and I read some statements about Iran from Israel first supporters here that are incorrect. But there is such a strong voice for Israel I feel that it is pointless to bring it up and there would be too many go on the attack. You can take it back and I typed that before you sent this.

If you feel that Iran is being misrepresented here, and feel you have another side to show the world, this is an amazing forum to do it. It might be tough, but I ultimately hope you do. I personally would love to hear it.

347 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:45:20pm

re: #336 McSpiff

I'ma gonna type lik dis to see if I can scrae cato out of is hidiy hole.

try standing in front of the mirror and saying his name backward 3 time...

348 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:45:30pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

So I guess this means we'll be seeing you shortly at the stalker site? Can you tell us in advance what screenname you'll be going by so we can spot you easier?

349 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:07pm

re: #303 Charles

That's true -- however, I haven't seen any pictures yet that actually show UNIFIL peacekeepers standing by while weapons were fired. Lebanese soldiers are holding RPGs in those photos, but they're not firing them, or even in real firing position.

I'd be careful about assuming too much from those photos without more evidence.

After the small arms fire erupts the Blue helmets seem to disappear.

Here's some RPG fire while retreating....

Youtube Video

Firing on the run.
I think it's these guys....
[Link: www.daylife.com...]

350 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:17pm

re: #319 McSpiff

Why don't you take a few paragraphs and say what you think the UN is all about, their effectiveness, and counter the notion that it seems obsessed with demonizing Israel?

351 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:25pm

re: #344 windsagio

You encouraged McSpiff to stay though, right? IS what people are doing for Cato any different?

I don't think the blog needs to lose anyone.

352 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:33pm

re: #319 McSpiff

So I just wouldn't want my friends and family to think I'm involved with the type of people that think this is all part of some vast conspiracy about the UN being out to destroy Israel

The UN isn't actively trying to destroy Israel, just the Arab and Muslim states are. he rest for the most part really would not care if it wet away, and as long as they play petro politics with the Arabs and and anti-US politics in general, it suits their interests to see Israel bleed.

or that all peacekeepers are some sort of lazy, blundering neo-colonial force like some here are trying to paint them.

Yeah, they did such a bang up job in Rwanda and they have really stopped the missile build up in Lebanon even though that was their primary mission. Or the times they were caught looking the other way at terrorists, or that whole sex slave ring - but other than that, their record of not interfering in the very struggles they are supposed to keep peaceful is quite remarkably unsuccessful. Shall we talk Sudan as well?

I won't even debate that simple minded argument

Because the facts are against you and you would lose.

but at the same time seeing me associated with it would be extremely hurtful for some people in my life.

Because facts hurt their feelings too?

That said, Charles has been extremely rational, as usual, so I think I'll stick around.

Charles is always slow to judge. It is a good quality of his. However, I doubt you will find him a friend of the Hezzies or an advocate of how effective UNIFIL has been.

353 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:39pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

Its been a slice.

354 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:50pm

re: #344 windsagio

Go or stay.

This prolonged goodbye/hope people beg you not to leave thing is kinda sad.

Fuck you in the nose.

355 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:46:58pm

re: #345 darthstar

You take this internet shit way too seriously. Just saying...

I can sympathize. No topic gets my blood boiling more than the Israeli-Arab conflict and nothing gets me more riled up than lefties towing the Palestinians' talking points.

356 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:47:37pm

re: #351 brownbagj

I'd say its different in the tone and content of their posts.

Before he said anything I was worried that spiff was gonna flame out on this thread.

that compared to a 'classic' flounce.

357 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:47:48pm

re: #233 justaminute

Because it was mentioned that we new Lizards disappear when Israel is under discussion.

Not only disappear, but conspicuous by their absence.

358 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:48:13pm

re: #357 ryannon

hah read the above, is it really better when we stick around? >>

359 Gus  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:48:23pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

Oh come on Cato. Stop it.

360 DaddyG  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:48:24pm

re: #345 darthstar

You take this internet shit way too seriously. Just saying...

How dare you. As soon as I figure out how to shed this corporeal existence and transform into an energy being the internet will be my life!

Until then I'll just have to deal with the steady diet of Gogurt and the catheter. /

361 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:48:31pm

re: #325 DaddyG

I am not a fan of the UN and in many cases I think they have become what they were created to prevent.

Having said that the Peacekeepers are in a no win situation. Even with the best intentions (which is a big assumption) they are like the school marm trying to hold two fighting students apart. The kid who doesn't care about the rules will continue taking pot shots at the one who is willing to back down. In the process the best case is a temporary cease fire while the school marm holds the two parties apart. The worst case invovles the "good kid" being restrained while the "bad kid" keeps punching away at everyone including the school marm.

Or they could do their mission and disarm the Hezekiah bunkers. Of course, that would de-escalate the situation by taking threats off the board, ultimately save lives from the day when Israel has to come in again when those rockets do come down on Israeli civilians, and well doing so would involve actual fighting and actually doing their mission.

362 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:48:42pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

Dammit, man. Learn how to GAZE. It works for me in regards to two Lizards.

363 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:03pm

re: #344 windsagio

Fuck you.

364 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:05pm

re: #354 Cato the Elder

Fuck you in the nose.

I honor your anger Cato. Consider staying. Don't let the twits get you down man.

365 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:06pm

re: #362 MandyManners

So you keep telling us :)

366 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:07pm

re: #239 albusteve

people dying is hardly stupid shit...consider your own closed minded attitude as stupid shit...try replying to Lawhawk or LVQ

Useless, he's a one-man echo chamber.

367 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:14pm

re: #352 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure LVQ. Whatever you say. You'd run the world differently. Good for you. Shouldn't you be calling the UN Nazis or something?

368 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:21pm

re: #331 DaddyG

They were yelling at the IDF in English? Is that the standard language of he peacekeeping forces or is this theatre for the west?

no, standard for the MSM

369 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:35pm

re: #349 Killgore Trout

That AJ video misstates things since the UN has certified that Israel withdrew from all Lebanese territory. This isn't part of a disputed border. This isn't in the Sheba Farms area, which Hizbullah claims is part of Lebanon, Lebanon says is part of Syria, and Israel says that they lawfully occupy.

370 Cato the Elder  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:38pm

re: #348 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So I guess this means we'll be seeing you shortly at the stalker site? Can you tell us in advance what screenname you'll be going by so we can spot you easier?

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

371 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:49:45pm

Cato, c'mon man. Scroll, baby scroll. Snark every now again when you can't stand it anymore for a release and then scroll.

Serenity now.

372 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:50:07pm

re: #363 MandyManners

Fuck you.

I've been working way too much lately.

Seems I'm missing out on all kinds of fireworks.

373 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:50:17pm

re: #364 eclectic infidel

I honor your anger Cato. Consider staying. Don't let the twits get you down man.

Lord knows we have seen worse twits...

374 Max  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:50:35pm

BBL.

Best wishes and good luck to LVQ, albusteve, Killgore, et all.

375 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:50:53pm

re: #365 windsagio

So you keep telling us :)

I'm not talking about you.

376 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:51:16pm

re: #372 researchok

This is unusual.

Well Cato hating the fuck out of me and harassing me isn't unusual at all, but there hasn't been a thread this crazy since.... I dunno when.

The flotilla threads weren't even this violent.

377 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:51:27pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

GAZE, Cato!

378 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:51:46pm

re: #356 windsagio

I'd say its different in the tone and content of their posts.

Before he said anything I was worried that spiff was gonna flame out on this thread.

that compared to a 'classic' flounce.

who cares...stick to the issues and answer lawhawk or LVQ....if you thinks their points are not credible post it....fuck the mind reading bullshit

379 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:52:24pm

re: #372 researchok

I've been working way too much lately.

Seems I'm missing out on all kinds of fireworks.

I enjoy reading your Pages in the mornings. I don't ding you up nearly as often as I should.

380 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:52:43pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

were you not the one who trashed Palin as a quitter?

(I am going to hell for sure)

381 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:52:48pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

That's why you shouldn't depart. Take a cue from Mandy, walk away for a bit. Join up again when you can see the twits for who and what they are and can take their BS with less than a grain of salt. Besides, who else here will take the time to correct me on my grammar?

382 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:53:03pm

re: #350 Bob Levin

Why don't you take a few paragraphs and say what you think the UN is all about, their effectiveness, and counter the notion that it seems obsessed with demonizing Israel?

That would be illuminating. Why not have the facts out?

383 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:53:39pm

re: #376 windsagio

This is unusual.

Well Cato hating the fuck out of me and harassing me isn't unusual at all, but there hasn't been a thread this crazy since... I dunno when.

The flotilla threads weren't even this violent.

Well, let's see, I'll stay if Cato, McSpiff and LVQ only use the blog on odd days of the weeks, and then if Windy and Windupbird only use it on Friday nights, and Mandy and Goddamnfrank act like a married couple, but only on even days of the week... and...

384 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:53:41pm

re: #381 eclectic infidel

That's why you shouldn't depart. Take a cue from Mandy, walk away for a bit. Join up again when you can see the twits for who and what they are and can take their BS with less than a grain of salt. Besides, who else here will take the time to correct me on my grammar?

I never walked away. I just honed my GAZE skills.

385 avanti  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:53:48pm

re: #322 Max D. Reinhardt

Wouldn't UNSCR 1701 give the blue helmets the power to preserve the peace along the Israeli-Lebanese border?

I guess they could have started shooting the Lebanese that opened fire, but that would have not turned out well. In a perfect world, the UN would at least condemn what they saw happen.

386 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:53:58pm

re: #377 MandyManners

Thing I don't get mandy is he's as bad to you as he is to me.

Why would you support this kind of behavior?

Why would anyone?

387 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:54:07pm

I'll ask again. Is the present discussion about the goodness and efficacy of the UN?

If so, then someone present a case about such goodness, rather than calling the other side paranoid. That seems to be where the contentiousness stems from.

388 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:54:39pm

re: #383 Walter L. Newton

Eeh, let me pick my days and maybe :p

389 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:54:42pm

re: #383 Walter L. Newton

Well, let's see, I'll stay if Cato, McSpiff and LVQ only use the blog on odd days of the weeks, and then if Windy and Windupbird only use it on Friday nights, and Mandy and Goddamnfrank act like a married couple, but only on even days of the week... and...

You mean I get to bean him with my iron skillet when he comes in smelling like the hooker he's been with?

390 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:54:49pm

re: #380 brookly red

This post made it all worth it.

391 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:54:51pm

re: #376 windsagio

This is unusual.

Well Cato hating the fuck out of me and harassing me isn't unusual at all, but there hasn't been a thread this crazy since... I dunno when.

The flotilla threads weren't even this violent.

oh please...what a laugher

392 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:11pm

re: #367 McSpiff

Sure LVQ. Whatever you say. You'd run the world differently. Good for you. Shouldn't you be calling the UN Nazis or something?

I understand your frustration.

Still, as far as the UN goes, the case is clear and concise. When it comes to Israel the UN record is not only atrocious but shameless as well. That Israel has been condemned more times than any other nation is outrageous. The track record of murder, corruption, human rights violations and tyranny by her accusers, some of the most failed and dysfunctional nations on earth bears testimony to that.

That UN allows these nations credible and equal voices (that express racism, bigotry and hate and call for extermination and genocide) in the condemnation of a real democratic state is a shame they will have to bear for a very long time.

393 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:18pm

re: #390 McSpiff

This post made it all worth it.

It wasn't for your sake, trust me :)

394 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:23pm

re: #383 Walter L. Newton

Well, let's see, I'll stay if Cato, McSpiff and LVQ only use the blog on odd days of the weeks, and then if Windy and Windupbird only use it on Friday nights, and Mandy and Goddamnfrank act like a married couple, but only on even days of the week... and...

... the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter alines with Mars... and peace will guide the planets...

395 MJ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:26pm

re: #47 Alouette

The comments over at HuffPoo remind me once again that they are not the good guys.

Ever check out this blog? The keep pretty good track of the Jew-hate over at the HuffPo:

[Link: thebrothersofjudea.blogspot.com...]

396 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:31pm

re: #385 avanti

I guess they could have started shooting the Lebanese that opened fire, but that would have not turned out well. In a perfect world, the UN would at least condemn what they saw happen.

I'm assuming the rules of engagement for the UNIFL are online somewhere, or at least a general outline. Might be relevant to the discussion at hand.

397 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:56:45pm

re: #386 windsagio

Thing I don't get mandy is he's as bad to you as he is to me.

Why would you support this kind of behavior?

Why would anyone?

what have you to say about the UN, anything?

398 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:05pm

re: #393 brookly red

It wasn't for your sake, trust me :)

Heh I'll consider it a freebie.

399 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:11pm

re: #389 MandyManners

You mean I get to bean him with my iron skillet when he comes in smelling like the hooker he's been with?

If you do will you take pictures and post 'em on the Internets?

400 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:29pm

re: #397 albusteve

They're not plotting to Kill the Jews.

401 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:54pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

... the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter alines with Mars... and peace will guide the planets...

And then a rogue planetoid plows thru and annihilates all life as we know it.

402 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:57pm

re: #395 MJ

Ever check out this blog? The keep pretty good track of the Jew-hate over at the HuffPo:

[Link: thebrothersofjudea.blogspot.com...]

Thank you...

403 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:57:58pm

re: #399 eclectic infidel

If you do will you take pictures and post 'em on the Internets?

I'll send you a 5x7 glossy. Autographed.

404 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:09pm

Cato isn't going anywhere.

He is being a bit of a primadonna though.

If you don't like certain views then debate them.

I generally like McSpiff and Windy. I think they are completely and utterly wrong on this point, and I have stated clear reasons why - even if I have been vitriolic.

I await fact based reasoning on why they think they are correct.

Then we can debate it.

Just to be clear, the debate seems to be:

1. Some notion that UNIFIL is impartial and doing their job honorably - which is demonstrably false.

2. Some notion that the UN in general is fair to Israel - which is demonstrably false.

3. Some notion that the blue helmets are, in general, effective - which is demonstrably false.

4. Some notion that somehow Lebanon and the Hezzies are not to blame for this - which is demonstrably false.

405 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:21pm

re: #400 windsagio

That's your case?

406 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:28pm

re: #379 MandyManners

I enjoy reading your Pages in the mornings. I don't ding you up nearly as often as I should.

I just put them up in the hope that readers will eat less fattening cheese danish in the AM. It's a civic duty kind of thing.

Hope springs eternal.

407 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:29pm

re: #394 Walter L. Newton

... the moon is in the seventh house, and Jupiter alines with Mars... and peace will guide the planets...

...and everythings alright, everythings fine... and I want you to sleep well tonight... let the world turn without you tonight...and...

408 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:40pm

re: #401 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And then a rogue planetoid plows thru and annihilates all life as we know it.

Not with Bruce Willis and Ben Affleck on the scene!

409 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:58:58pm

re: #392 researchok

I understand your frustration.

Still, as far as the UN goes, the case is clear and concise. When it comes to Israel the UN record is not only atrocious but shameless as well. That Israel has been condemned more times than any other nation is outrageous. The track record of murder, corruption, human rights violations and tyranny by her accusers, some of the most failed and dysfunctional nations on earth bears testimony to that.

That UN allows these nations credible and equal voices (that express racism, bigotry and hate and call for extermination and genocide) in the condemnation of a real democratic state is a shame they will have to bear for a very long time.

You won't ever hear me defend the UN's track record on Israel. Nor will I defend "Peace keeping" missions like what we're discussing here. At best it should be made clear that these forces are purely observers or they should be removed.

410 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 2:59:37pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

Cato isn't going anywhere.

He is being a bit of a primadonna though.

If you don't like certain views then debate them.

I generally like McSpiff and Windy. I think they are completely and utterly wrong on this point, and I have stated clear reasons why - even if I have been vitriolic.

I await fact based reasoning on why they think they are correct.

Then we can debate it.

Just to be clear, the debate seems to be:

1. Some notion that UNIFIL is impartial and doing their job honorably - which is demonstrably false.

2. Some notion that the UN in general is fair to Israel - which is demonstrably false.

3. Some notion that the blue helmets are, in general, effective - which is demonstrably false.

4. Some notion that somehow Lebanon and the Hezzies are not to blame for this - which is demonstrably false.

I don't know whether to up-ding or down-ding you.

411 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:00:07pm

re: #406 researchok

I just put them up in the hope that readers will eat less fattening cheese danish in the AM. It's a civic duty kind of thing.

Hope springs eternal.

I need fattening foods.

412 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:01:41pm

re: #409 McSpiff

Then what is the argument about?

413 Jack Burton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:01:58pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

So this is worse than Gordon, the Shrieking Harpy, all the lefties that were here with BDS during the Bush admin, and all the creationist whackos in their proto-stalker time here?

414 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:02:10pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote


Seriously, in what way are 'certain views' the same as 'constant harassment'?

'cuz I'd love to know.

415 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:03:16pm

re: #414 windsagio

Please, you first. We are headed towards 450 comments. Make a case for the efficacy and fairness of the UN.

416 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:03:55pm

UNIFIL Mandate

Originally, UNIFIL was established by the Security Council in March 1978 by its resolutions 425 (1978) and 426 (1978) to:

Confirm Israeli withdrawal from southern Lebanon;
Restore international peace and security; and
Assist the Lebanese Government in restoring its effective authority in the area.

So, 1) check. 2 and 3) failed

Following the July/August 2006 Israeli-Hizbullah war, the Security Council, by resolution 1701 (2006) of 11 August 2006, has significantly enhanced UNIFIL and expanded its original mandate to:

Monitor the cessation of hostilities;
Accompany and support the Lebanese Armed Forces (LAF) as they deploy throughout the South, as Israel withdraws its armed forces from Lebanon;
Coordinate these activities with the Governments of Lebanon and Israel;
Extend its assistance to help ensure humanitarian access to civilian populations and the voluntary and safe return of displaced persons;
Assist the LAF in taking steps towards the establishment between the Blue Line and the Litani river of an free of any armed personnel, assets and weapons other than those of the Government of Lebanon and of UNIFIL deployed in this area;
Assist the Government of Lebanon in securing its borders and other entry points to prevent the entry in Lebanon without its consent of arms or related materiel.

1) monitor? yes, cessation of hositilies, not so much
2) Only when the LAF lets them and not bothering the Hezzies
3) If by working with Hezzie elected leaders, check
4) Not working out so good for the Lebanese Christians
5) Complete fucking failure
6) As long as that isn't meant to stop Syrians or Iranians, then yeah, must be working just great

417 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:03:56pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

...

1. Some notion that UNIFIL is impartial and doing their job honorably - which is demonstrably false.

In general there have been failures. In this case they seem to be agreeing with Israeli versions of the events. I categorically reject the notion that this was somehow a preplanned attack with UN support. I would need to see any form of evidence of that, which hasn't been presented.

2. Some notion that the UN in general is fair to Israel - which is demonstrably false.


Agreed.

3. Some notion that the blue helmets are, in general, effective - which is demonstrably false.

Define what you think the objectives of peacekeeping are. I highly suspect you will be totally off the mark.


4. Some notion that somehow Lebanon and the Hezzies are not to blame for this - which is demonstrably false.

Looks like Lebanese army to me.

418 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:04:01pm

re: #413 ArchangelMichael

So this is worse than Gordon, the Shrieking Harpy, all the lefties that were here with BDS during the Bush admin, and all the creationist whackos in their proto-stalker time here?

...and me?

419 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:04:09pm

re: #404 LudwigVanQuixote

I'd say where the hair-splitting begins with the question why?
1) is it incompetence?
2) is it collusion for some sort of gain (money/good relations/who knows)?
3) is it outright hostility towards Israel akin to that of Hamas and Hizballah?

I haven't followed the whole argument, but I think Windsagio and McSpiff would argue towards possibility 1, and they feel everyone else thinks possibility 3, which they think is conspiracy theory territory.

Is that a fair assessment?

420 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:04:20pm

re: #415 Bob Levin

I really don't care at just this moment.

Right now I'm fucking pissed and want to know why people support this guy acting like an asshole.

421 avanti  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:04:28pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

Cato, I don't get it, we are having a discussion about the UN actions. No one here has praised the UN or condemned Israel. My read is that we all agree the it was not exactly a shinning moment for the UN, but some are not convinced they were in on a plot to assassinate anyone.
The UN has never been a effective peace keeping force, and this issue is just another example of that.

422 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:05:27pm

re: #415 Bob Levin

Ask me some other time tho', we can try to work it out.

423 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:06:05pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

I will roast in hell before I say anything bad about this place elsewhere or go to the stalkers.

But the stupidity quotient here is more than I can take.

Then as the others have said, GAZE. Come on, you and me are old-timers, we've seen worse shit than this. When things get too much, take a break from the site. Go for a walk, go for a drive, go read a book, or just go and yell at a tree for a few hours. Don't let it get to ya.

424 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:06:07pm

re: #420 windsagio

I really don't care at just this moment.

Right now I'm fucking pissed and want to know why people support this guy acting like an asshole.

asshole is in the eye of the beholder, grasshopper...

425 Jack Burton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:06:15pm

re: #419 Joo-LiZ

You forgot option 4: All of the above.

426 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:06:36pm

re: #424 brookly red

Its worse than the way bagua treated ludwig.

I think everyone would agree that bagua was an ass.

427 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:07:51pm

Alright, I gotta run, be back in 10-15ish

429 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:08:31pm

re: #426 windsagio

Its worse than the way bagua treated ludwig.

I think everyone would agree that bagua was an ass.

spare me... there are some posters who I would not piss on if they burst into flame. but such is life.

430 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:09:05pm

re: #422 windsagio

Yep, I think in the next few days there might be an opportunity for this. I think

I'd say where the hair-splitting begins with the question why?
1) is it incompetence?
2) is it collusion for some sort of gain (money/good relations/who knows)?
3) is it outright hostility towards Israel akin to that of Hamas and Hizballah?

I haven't followed the whole argument, but I think Windsagio and McSpiff would argue towards possibility 1, and they feel everyone else thinks possibility 3, which they think is conspiracy theory territory.

Is that a fair assessment?

(from Joo-Liz)

this comment is an accurate assessment of the discussion.

This is where to start. Agree?

431 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:09:07pm

re: #414 windsagio

Seriously, in what way are 'certain views' the same as 'constant harassment'?

'cuz I'd love to know.

Dude, your spat with Cato is something I am neutral on. In general, I like you both.

As to many of your comments re-Israel, I am certain that you are just wrong. The UN really is deeply biased as an organization against them and has been for some time. The far left really does not get the conflict at all and really does foolishly side with Islamofascists who would kill them in a second. What exactly do you think a Hezzie would do with you for instance?


Supposed liberals routinely attack a nation that is responding to constant siege by theocratic brutal barbarians who pass out sweets when innocents are murdered. Supposed liberals side with brutes who institutionalize the worst abuse of women, the murder of gays, utter repudiation of religious freedom and complete rejection of democracy and higher education. Everything you hate about Fred Phelps is there - only more brutal and with power. Yet, you liberals seem to wiff past that and abuse the only democracy in the region when it defends itself - and honestly bends over backwards - far past any other nation would, including America - to prevent civilian casualties.

How can you so throughly and utterly confuse who the good guys and the bad guys are?

432 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:09:39pm

re: #423 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Then as the others have said, GAZE. Come on, you and me are old-timers, we've seen worse shit than this. When things get too much, take a break from the site. Go for a walk, go for a drive, go read a book, or just go and yell at a tree for a few hours. Don't let it get to ya.

Or, kick the cat. Or, feed the yak.

433 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:10:02pm

re: #426 windsagio

Its worse than the way bagua treated ludwig.

I think everyone would agree that bagua was an ass.

and I don't think Bagua was an ass... bad people skill yes but not an ass.

434 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:10:58pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

Supposed liberals routinely attack a nation that is responding to constant siege by theocratic brutal barbarians who pass out sweets when innocents are murdered. Supposed liberals side with brutes who institutionalize the worst abuse of women, the murder of gays, utter repudiation of religious freedom and complete rejection of democracy and higher education. Everything you hate about Fred Phelps is there - only more brutal and with power. Yet, you liberals seem to wiff past that and abuse the only democracy in the region when it defends itself - and honestly bends over backwards - far past any other nation would, including America - to prevent civilian casualties.

How can you so throughly and utterly confuse who the good guys and the bad guys are?

435 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:11:48pm

re: #419 Joo-LiZ

I'd say where the hair-splitting begins with the question why?
1) is it incompetence?
2) is it collusion for some sort of gain (money/good relations/who knows)?
3) is it outright hostility towards Israel akin to that of Hamas and Hizballah?

I haven't followed the whole argument, but I think Windsagio and McSpiff would argue towards possibility 1, and they feel everyone else thinks possibility 3, which they think is conspiracy theory territory.

Is that a fair assessment?

Let me quote wiki:

Peacekeepers monitor and observe peace processes in post-conflict areas and assist ex-combatants in implementing the peace agreements they may have signed. Such assistance comes in many forms, including confidence-building measures, power-sharing arrangements, electoral support, strengthening the rule of law, and economic and social development. Accordingly UN peacekeepers (often referred to as Blue Beret because of their light blue berets or helmets) can include soldiers, police officers, and civilian personnel.

"Monitor", "observe", "assist", etc. None of these things include "force". If Hezbollah says "No, we will not disarm" even privately...well, that's the end of it. That's how the system works. This is the only way the UN can gain entry to many conflict zones is by agreeing to these standards. And I think most people would agree here. No one wants to see Blue Berets firing on the IDF, or arresting IDF personnel.

So you can argue the system is poorly thought out, or that's undermanned (not sure about UNIFL) but unfortunately doing things like screaming "EVERYONE STOP" is really one of the few tools they have.

I think acknowledging that peacekeeping is a flawed idea in many situations is closer to the truth than saying the troops on the ground are incompetent/ in collusion with one side or another/etc.

436 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:12:27pm

re: #423 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Then as the others have said, GAZE. Come on, you and me are old-timers, we've seen worse shit than this. When things get too much, take a break from the site. Go for a walk, go for a drive, go read a book, or just go and yell at a tree for a few hours. Don't let it get to ya.

Or, post in Pages!

437 dummnutzer  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:12:27pm

re: #416 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

UNIFIL Mandate

1) monitor? yes, cessation of hositilies, not so much
2) Only when the LAF lets them and not bothering the Hezzies
3) If by working with Hezzie elected leaders, check
4) Not working out so good for the Lebanese Christians
5) Complete fucking failure
6) As long as that isn't meant to stop Syrians or Iranians, then yeah, must be working just great

Your own link shows the magical term "assist". UNIFIL can help the Lebanese to act, but cannot act alone without exceeding their mandate. I suppose that you, as an UN-critic, are not in favor of UN troops defining their own mandates

438 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:12:55pm

re: #433 brookly red

Anyone who flounces and goes to a stalker site is an ass. So I have to disagree with you there.

439 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:13:29pm

re: #438 brownbagj

Anyone who flounces and goes to a stalker site is an ass. So I have to disagree with you there.

who did that?

440 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:13:34pm

re: #437 dummnutzer

Your own link shows the magical term "assist". UNIFIL can help the Lebanese to act, but cannot act alone without exceeding their mandate. I suppose that you, as an UN-critic, are not in favor of UN troops defining their own mandates

They are NOT fufilling their mandate.

441 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:13:46pm

re: #433 brookly red

and I don't think Bagua was an ass... bad people skill yes but not an ass.

He seems to have no problem playing with his new (old? only?) friends.

442 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:03pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

Dude, your spat with Cato is something I am neutral on. In general, I like you both.

As to many of your comments re-Israel, I am certain that you are just wrong. The UN really is deeply biased as an organization against them and has been for some time. The far left really does not get the conflict at all and really does foolishly side with Islamofascists who would kill them in a second. What exactly do you think a Hezzie would do with you for instance?

Supposed liberals routinely attack a nation that is responding to constant siege by theocratic brutal barbarians who pass out sweets when innocents are murdered. Supposed liberals side with brutes who institutionalize the worst abuse of women, the murder of gays, utter repudiation of religious freedom and complete rejection of democracy and higher education. Everything you hate about Fred Phelps is there - only more brutal and with power. Yet, you liberals seem to wiff past that and abuse the only democracy in the region when it defends itself - and honestly bends over backwards - far past any other nation would, including America - to prevent civilian casualties.

How can you so throughly and utterly confuse who the good guys and the bad guys are?

The matter and question you raise is serious.

The notion or redefining what is good and what is evil is absolutely unacceptable. We saw that happen twice before in the 20th century.

See my #210 for clarification.

443 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:09pm

re: #432 MandyManners

Or, kick the cat. Or, feed the yak.

Or yak on the cat. Just don't take things that happen on this board too seriously, cause Lord knows I don't.

444 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:17pm

re: #431 LudwigVanQuixote

I'm not sure that 'high-handed harassment' is really a 'spat'. For Ice's sake I"ve actually been really careful to be extra nice to him and let the insults pass.

To have it whitewashed is utterly unacceptable.


re: #433 brookly red

and I don't think Bagua was an ass... bad people skill yes but not an ass.

That's actually a pretty good description of Cato too, so yeah. Modify my above as you like.

Apparently he often doesn't remember these outbursts (or so I'm told), so maybe there's something else going on to.

445 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:25pm

re: #439 brookly red

Bagua did. Unless I am really mistaken.

446 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:40pm

re: #435 McSpiff


Undermanned, flawed idea. Incompetence. I think folks are quibbling over adjectives. Don't you?

447 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:14:51pm

re: #441 McSpiff

He's a longterm, popular member.

People forgive more of them (again see what it took for Bags to get booted)

448 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:15:19pm

re: #435 McSpiff

UN SCR 1701 has a mechanism for the disarmament of Hizbullah by working with and through the Lebanese military to carry out the disarmament. And if everyone wants to paper over the inability to disarm because it's outside the scope of peacekeeping, then we're back to square one. UNIFIL's presence was meant to lessen tension on the border, but its presence has done the opposite because it created a false sense of security and its operations meant that Israel could not take the steps it needs to protect itself.

These are the same arguments against UNIFIL that have been operative since before the end of hostilities in 2006 because it was all too apparent that UNIFIL wouldn't get the job done of disarming Hizbullah and that Israelis would be put in danger as a result.

449 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:15:30pm

re: #441 McSpiff

He seems to have no problem playing with his new (old? only?) friends.

I am really stupid could you please explaine that to me?

450 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:15:55pm

re: #446 Bob Levin

Undermanned, flawed idea. Incompetence. I think folks are quibbling over adjectives. Don't you?

I don't. I don't think failing at an impossible task makes you incompetent.

451 Achilles Tang  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:15:58pm

re: #420 windsagio

I really don't care at just this moment.

Right now I'm fucking pissed and want to know why people support this guy acting like an asshole.

May I suggest you just downding those people, like usual when you don't know what to say....

452 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:16:21pm

re: #449 brookly red

I believe this is stating that Bagua is getting along quite well with some of the flouncers on the stalker site.

453 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:16:21pm

re: #443 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Or yak on the cat. Just don't take things that happen on this board too seriously, cause Lord knows I don't.

I do to the extent that Israel gets the shit kicked out of it for merely existing.

454 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:16:27pm

re: #451 Naso Tang

lol, thanks I feel a little better now :)

455 avanti  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:16:27pm

re: #437 dummnutzer

Your own link shows the magical term "assist". UNIFIL can help the Lebanese to act, but cannot act alone without exceeding their mandate. I suppose that you, as an UN-critic, are not in favor of UN troops defining their own mandates

OK, fair enough, but can't they condemn what I'll call a over reaction by the Lebanese ?? BTW, I'm being PC by using over reaction, it could have been anything from a screw up to a ambush.

456 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:17:10pm

re: #419 Joo-LiZ

I'd say where the hair-splitting begins with the question why?
1) is it incompetence?
2) is it collusion for some sort of gain (money/good relations/who knows)?
3) is it outright hostility towards Israel akin to that of Hamas and Hizballah?

I haven't followed the whole argument, but I think Windsagio and McSpiff would argue towards possibility 1, and they feel everyone else thinks possibility 3, which they think is conspiracy theory territory.

Is that a fair assessment?

If that is what they are taking from anything I wrote, I don't see how.

What I wrote was that the UN is institutionally biased against Israel and the UNIFIL routinely looks the other way at terrorist activities. I wrote that even though they have a mandate to end the flow of missiles and dismantle the bunkers they do not.

Whether this out of malice or design is secondary to the fact that they are enabling a build up of terror weapons that sooner or later will be used indiscriminately against civilians and that sooner or later will cause a more serious bloodletting when Israel has to come back.

I further have no doubt that when Israel is forced to come back, the UN will be screaming bloody murder for the poor poor Hezzies who launched those missiles.

457 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:17:24pm

re: #450 McSpiff

Okay. Do you agree that the chain of events following the assigning of an impossible task has made the tensions in the region greater, and further threatened human life?

458 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:17:35pm

re: #443 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Missed this, so late response.

Usually I don't, but sometimes you're not being chill, you're enabling.

I feel like I'm Neville Chamberlain up in this.

459 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:17:38pm

re: #453 MandyManners

I do to the extent that Israel gets the shit kicked out of it for merely existing.

They've been gettin' that for years. And so far, it doesn't seem to have done more than piss them off. Good on'em.

460 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:18:00pm

re: #445 brownbagj

Bagua did. Unless I am really mistaken.

Bagua did not leave by his own choice... what if anything he has done since I can not speak to.

461 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:18:23pm

re: #456 LudwigVanQuixote

If that is what they are taking from anything I wrote, I don't see how.

What I wrote was that the UN is institutionally biased against Israel and the UNIFIL routinely looks the other way at terrorist activities. I wrote that even though they have a mandate to end the flow of missiles and dismantle the bunkers they do not.

Whether this out of malice or design is secondary to the fact that they are enabling a build up of terror weapons that sooner or later will be used indiscriminately against civilians and that sooner or later will cause a more serious bloodletting when Israel has to come back.

I further have no doubt that when Israel is forced to come back, the UN will be screaming bloody murder for the poor poor Hezzies who launched those missiles.

Hell, look how fast the UN issued its statement following the flotilla incident.

462 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:18:29pm

re: #437 dummnutzer

Your own link shows the magical term "assist". UNIFIL can help the Lebanese to act, but cannot act alone without exceeding their mandate. I suppose that you, as an UN-critic, are not in favor of UN troops defining their own mandates

Then the UNIFIL should come forward and say "We are unable to meet our mandate due to the failure of Lebanon to cooperate." They will not do that because it will be an admission that the UN has failed and the Lebanese have lost control and the Hezzies run the show and don't want peace.

463 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:19:04pm

re: #459 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

They've been gettin' that for years. And so far, it doesn't seem to have done more than piss them off. Good on'em.

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

464 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:19:24pm

re: #452 brownbagj

I believe this is stating that Bagua is getting along quite well with some of the flouncers on the stalker site.

that may be so I would have no way of knowing, but thanks for the explanation.

465 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:19:28pm

re: #457 Bob Levin

Okay. Do you agree that the chain of events following the assigning of an impossible task has made the tensions in the region greater, and further threatened human life?

They are there to enforce a ceasefire agreement, which includes various provisions linked to the disarmament of Hez, the army taking back control, and the IDF generally not killing people.

If Hez doesn't want to disarm, then there is no ceasefire to enforce. They should be out of there.

466 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:19:30pm

re: #462 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Then the UNIFIL should come forward and say "We are unable to meet our mandate due to the failure of Lebanon to cooperate." They will not do that because it will be an admission that the UN has failed and the Lebanese have lost control and the Hezzies run the show and don't want peace.

I think Iran runs the show.

467 brownbagj  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:19:56pm

re: #460 brookly red

Well, that part is debatable. He stated he finally pushed the buttons so hard to get himself pushed out on purpose. He stated this at the stalker site.

So, he may not have "left" by his choice, but he pushed the envelope until Charles had no choice. Think of it as suicide by cop.

468 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:20:40pm

re: #461 MandyManners

Hell, look how fast the UN issued its statement following the flotilla incident.

The UN has to paint Israeli actions as questionable or hostile. That is the only way they can excuse their own inaction and moral failures when it comes to Israel.

"The Israelis are bad- we are not obligated to serve their needs" is the implied refrain.

469 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:20:40pm

re: #458 windsagio

Missed this, so late response.

Usually I don't, but sometimes you're not being chill, you're enabling.

I feel like I'm Neville Chamberlain up in this.

Chamberlain gets a bad rap for having enabled Hitler, but we have to remember from his point of view, he was doing what he thought was in the best interest of peace. Naive? Perhaps, but we look at that from the viewpoint of hindsight, knowing how his efforts would play out.

470 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:21:16pm

re: #469 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Well said :p

And, now that I look at it, bad on me for the inadvertant Godwin.

471 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:21:42pm

re: #465 McSpiff

Okay. Now, please address the claims that the UN has dealt unfairly with Israel, as compared to other countries--in regards to the speed of condemnations, frequency of anti-Israel resolutions, and the ignoring of great human right abuses other places in the world.

472 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:22:23pm

re: #471 Bob Levin

Okay. Now, please address the claims that the UN has dealt unfairly with Israel, as compared to other countries--in regards to the speed of condemnations, frequency of anti-Israel resolutions, and the ignoring of great human right abuses other places in the world.

Was anyone arguing that?

473 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:22:31pm

re: #463 MandyManners

What doesn't kill you only makes you stronger.

A Jewish friend once told me that all Jewish holidays can be summed up as "They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat."

474 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:22:35pm

re: #462 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Then the UNIFIL should come forward and say "We are unable to meet our mandate due to the failure of Lebanon to cooperate." They will not do that because it will be an admission that the UN has failed and the Lebanese have lost control and the Hezzies run the show and don't want peace.

I have no doubt they have. I'm sure it went up the chain of command and was promptly ignored.

Unfortunately the UN saying "Fuck it, this ain't working" simply guarantees war. Which the UN doesn't want, Israel doesn't want and I think some aspects of Lebanon don't want. So everyone pretends this farce is working in the hope that Hez all come down with AIDS or something.

475 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:05pm

re: #472 ShaunP

I think everyone is arguing that. Stongly, but that's the gist.

476 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:14pm

re: #471 Bob Levin

Okay. Now, please address the claims that the UN has dealt unfairly with Israel, as compared to other countries--in regards to the speed of condemnations, frequency of anti-Israel resolutions, and the ignoring of great human right abuses other places in the world.

Sure: I agree.

477 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:19pm

re: #474 McSpiff

I have no doubt they have. I'm sure it went up the chain of command and was promptly ignored.

Unfortunately the UN saying "Fuck it, this ain't working" simply guarantees war. Which the UN doesn't want, Israel doesn't want and I think some aspects of Lebanon don't want. So everyone pretends this farce is working in the hope that Hez all come down with AIDS or something.

(calmed down some I think)

I think that's to the point. Its not all we could hope for but its substantially better than nothing.

478 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:37pm

re: #468 researchok

The UN has to paint Israeli actions as questionable or hostile. That is the only way they can excuse their own inaction and moral failures when it comes to Israel.

"The Israelis are bad- we are not obligated to serve their needs" is the implied refrain.

Israel can fufill their own needs.

479 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:23:57pm

re: #476 McSpiff

Then we are all in agreement. At least that's how I see it.

480 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:24:25pm

re: #475 Bob Levin

I think that the question is where the line is. The UN thing got started by people saying (really!) that the UN conspired with the Lebanese to murder Jewish soldiers.

That's a far cry from 'the UN is unduly harsh on Israel'.

481 dummnutzer  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:24:30pm

re: #440 MandyManners

They are NOT fufilling their mandate.

OK, you are in command of a German warship off the Lebanese coast. You got some info by German and Allied intelligence that SS Bomb is carrying weapons for Hizbollah. This information is supported by recon units.

Your mandate is to support the Lebanese government´s efforts to stop arms smuggling. You shadow the SS Bomb, ready an assault team and inform the Lebanese. The Lebanese decide either to take no action or insist on searching the ship on their own, allegedly finding no weapons at all.

What do you do?

Acting alone against SS Bomb is a violation of the UN mandate ...

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I am limiting my comments to naval stuff, as I have been following said campaign since 2007, but have no detailed info on land operations. Sorry.

482 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:25:36pm

re: #417 McSpiff

Define what you think the objectives of peacekeeping are. I highly suspect you will be totally off the mark.

The mandate was rather clear in the resolution that applies to disarm the militias. This was not done. Even if you argue now that is not what those words clearly mean - that is certainly what the Israelis foolishly took them to mean (because it was stupid of Olmert to trust the UN) when they agreed to cease fire prematurely. At best, you are arguing bait and switch.

Looks like Lebanese army to me.

That is a foolish observation since Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government and part of the power sharing arrangement was Hezzie control over the south. The souther Lebanese forces are riddled with Hezzie men.

483 Mr Pancakes  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:25:42pm

re: #473 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

A Jewish friend once told me that all Jewish holidays can be summed up as "They tried to kill us, we won, let's eat."

Yep..... Arab tanks are the only tanks in the world that have back-up lights installed as standard equipment.

484 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:25:44pm

re: #477 windsagio

(calmed down some I think)

I think that's to the point. Its not all we could hope for but its substantially better than nothing.

For everyone but the peacekeepers. If people truly believe that the border would be safer without the UN there, I say get them out.

485 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:25:48pm

re: #481 dummnutzer

OK, you are in command of a German warship off the Lebanese coast. You got some info by German and Allied intelligence that SS Bomb is carrying weapons for Hizbollah. This information is supported by recon units.

Your mandate is to support the Lebanese government´s efforts to stop arms smuggling. You shadow the SS Bomb, ready an assault team and inform the Lebanese. The Lebanese decide either to take no action or insist on searching the ship on their own, allegedly finding no weapons at all.

What do you do?

Acting alone against SS Bomb is a violation of the UN mandate ...

---

I am limiting my comments to naval stuff, as I have been following said campaign since 2007, but have no detailed info on land operations. Sorry.

The Lebanese government is in name only. It's being run by Iran.

486 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:26:07pm

re: #485 MandyManners

The Lebanese government is in name only. It's being run by Iran.

Proof?

487 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:26:13pm

re: #477 windsagio

(calmed down some I think)

I think that's to the point. Its not all we could hope for but its substantially better than nothing.

So whats the acceptable numbers of deaths per year because no one wants to deal with the real problem of Hezzballah?

488 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:26:22pm

re: #407 Walter L. Newton

...and everythings alright, everythings fine... and I want you to sleep well tonight... let the world turn without you tonight...and...

Youtube Video
489 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:26:23pm

re: #484 McSpiff

You've gotta admire those guys, talk about thankless work!

490 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:26:49pm

re: #487 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

What's the proposed solution that we're not taking?

491 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:27:09pm

re: #480 windsagio

In any conversation, you have to first hear what folks say, then figure out what they mean. No one thinks that literally the UN is figuring out ways to kill Israeli soldiers. They do mean that this is frequently the outcome of their actions, that Israelis and Israeli soldiers get killed.

492 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:27:24pm

re: #482 LudwigVanQuixote

You're the only one arguing that. Peacekeepers can't force anyone to do anything. That's why they are so damn easy to take hostage. Israel knows this. They hoped Hez would disarm, but they knew they'd never be forced.

493 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:27:25pm

re: #192 McSpiff

If you'd like I could arrange for you to meet a friend of mine. He still attends rehab for the damage that serb shell did to him. Maybe you could explain to him that he was really just raping kids instead of serving with honor in Yugoslavia? You fucking creep.

There is no doubt that some UNIFIL employees are seriously cozy with anti-Israel factions.

And the child-raping incidents LVQ mentioned are actually real.

It does not mean that all the people working for UNIFIL are evil.

When a post is made about the failures of the Catholic Church with regard to pedophile priests, I recognize that evil and I don't make it all about me and all the Catholics I know who are NOT part of that evil, which is what you're doing here. This isn't about the people you personally know who are part of UNIFIL; this is about a failure within UNIFIL to which we should not want to remain blind.

494 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:27:49pm

re: #467 brownbagj

Well, that part is debatable. He stated he finally pushed the buttons so hard to get himself pushed out on purpose. He stated this at the stalker site.

So, he may not have "left" by his choice, but he pushed the envelope until Charles had no choice. Think of it as suicide by cop.

you make a good point... I am a conservative I believe in personal responsibility.

495 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:28:10pm

re: #491 Bob Levin

In any conversation, you have to first hear what folks say, then figure out what they mean. No one thinks that literally the UN is figuring out ways to kill Israeli soldiers. They do mean that this is frequently the outcome of their actions, that Israelis and Israeli soldiers get killed.

I honestly think you're wrong with this post.

496 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:28:45pm

re: #485 MandyManners

The Lebanese government is in name only. It's being run by Iran.

Or, Syria. But, it all goes back to Iran.

497 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:29:00pm

re: #490 windsagio

What's the proposed solution that we're not taking?

Hezzballahs finishes rearming, launches an attack on Israel again, Israel starts to pound southern Lebanon into a fine powder again. Do we let them or do we continue to play the farcical game that it will end differently this time if we let the UN send in more peacekeepers?

498 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:29:04pm

re: #491 Bob Levin

But people were saying it specifically.

Yes. They were there to witness a preplanned ambush. The Blue Helmets along with the reporters make good human shields.

499 prairiefire  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:29:05pm

re: #357 ryannon

Not only disappear, but conspicuous by their absence.

I support the nation state of Israel.

500 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:29:16pm

re: #450 McSpiff

I don't. I don't think failing at an impossible task makes you incompetent.

it's not the impossible task that interests me....it's the opinion on whether the UN effective supports Israels enemies....liberals are pretty adept at dodging the issue

501 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:29:47pm

re: #497 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

That's not a solution tho', thats more scenarios if we do nothing.

What should the world do?

502 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:30:08pm

re: #500 albusteve

it's not the impossible task that interests me...it's the opinion on whether the UN effective supports Israels enemies...liberals are pretty adept at dodging the issue

I've said that I agree with that statement every time I've had it asked of me. If you wanna get it printed on a tshirt for me, I'll wear it.

503 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:30:15pm

re: #499 prairiefire

I support the nation state of Israel.

Its just as good as the US and Argentina, and has as much right to exist!

504 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:30:17pm

Max's link.

Syrian President Bashar Al-Assad, Hezbollah's second largest backer, said that finding Hezbollah guilty of Rafik Hariri's murder will destroy Lebanon.

Doesn't this constitute an outright threat to the tribunal?

505 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:30:45pm

re: #497 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hezzballahs finishes rearming, launches an attack on Israel again, Israel starts to pound southern Lebanon into a fine powder again. Do we let them or do we continue to play the farcical game that it will end differently this time if we let the UN send in more peacekeepers?

That's the definition of insanity.

506 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:31:20pm

re: #497 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hezzballahs finishes rearming, launches an attack on Israel again, Israel starts to pound southern Lebanon into a fine powder again. Do we let them or do we continue to play the farcical game that it will end differently this time if we let the UN send in more peacekeepers?

Nope. No more peacekeepers. Neither side wants them there, they're risking their lives for nothing.

507 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:31:29pm

re: #367 McSpiff

Sure LVQ. Whatever you say. You'd run the world differently. Good for you. Shouldn't you be calling the UN Nazis or something?

Interesting you mention that. If you took the time to look at Arab media, you would find that huge amounts of it are lifted straight from Nazi propaganda.

Now that you have crossed the line into being silly and attempting to avert the points of this conversation with non-sequitur- how about something factual instead?

You will find that I am equally brutal to moonbat and wingnut alike.

508 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:32:03pm

Hey I keep getting fucked up when shockwave crashes on this site (I did not know I even had shockwave) what is up with that?

509 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:32:34pm

re: #506 McSpiff

Except that the people of both nations are different than extremists there, or random bloggers here.

I suspect those people pretty well like hte idea of peacekeepers.

510 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:32:43pm

re: #498 windsagio

During the Hizbullah war - several UNIFIL outposts were hit by Israeli fire. They held Israel accountable. Yet, all the evidence and facts showed that Hizbullah was firing on Israel from nearby positions - using UNIFIL as human shields. Israel got blamed, but Hizbullah got a pass, even though but for Hizbullah's actions, Israel would not have fired on UNIFIL's positions.

511 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:32:52pm

re: #486 windsagio

Proof?

Well those Iranian flags next to the Hezzie flags might be a clue... Look at the photos.

512 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:33:01pm

re: #508 brookly red

Flash maybe? the youtube links use flash.

/guessing.

513 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:33:08pm

re: #495 McSpiff

That's how I hear it. The thing to do is ask questions, 'is this what you mean' or 'do you mean this'.

I've been reading a lot of very cogent arguments. It doesn't make sense that some kind on lunacy is at the foundation of these.

514 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:33:09pm

re: #477 windsagio

(calmed down some I think)

I think that's to the point. Its not all we could hope for but its substantially better than nothing.


how so?...enabling Israels enemies is better than what?

515 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:33:44pm

Cheese Eating Victory Monkey's link about what Iraeli scientists are doing to fight cancer.


Gee, Chinless Optometrist and Short Shit, what are your scientists doing?

516 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:34:02pm

re: #503 windsagio

Its just as good as the US and Argentina, and has as much right to exist!

do you support an open border with Gaza?
do you support lifting Israels embargo?

517 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:34:49pm

re: #511 LudwigVanQuixote

I dunno, I just think back to that article I linked a while ago where they talk about how Syria banned veils in their university system, as part of maintaining a secular state. Doesn't sound like something Iran would be behind to me.

518 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:35:07pm

re: #506 McSpiff

Nope. No more peacekeepers. Neither side wants them there, they're risking their lives for nothing.

Then the solution comes down to Hezzballah and their supporters backing down or open warfare. Which is more likely?

519 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:35:11pm

re: #506 McSpiff

Nope. No more peacekeepers. Neither side wants them there, they're risking their lives for nothing.

I could imagine Hez greasing it's wheels via the UN....can't you?

520 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:35:43pm

re: #492 McSpiff

You're the only one arguing that. Peacekeepers can't force anyone to do anything. That's why they are so damn easy to take hostage. Israel knows this. They hoped Hez would disarm, but they knew they'd never be forced.

No I am not the only one arguing that. It was an integral part of the cease-fire agreement. The fact that it never came through was one of the reasons Olmert was booted.

521 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:35:44pm

re: #518 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Then the solution comes down to Hezzballah and their supporters backing down or open warfare. Which is more likely?

I won't bet against the latter.

522 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:35:49pm

re: #498 windsagio

Grain. Of. Salt. The point, as I hear it, is that once again, Hezbollah is using human shields. That's one of their tactics, to use human shields. You agree that they use human shields, right?

523 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:36:22pm

re: #518 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Then the solution comes down to Hezzballah and their supporters backing down or open warfare. Which is more likely?

Honestly? I don't really care. If Israel wants to pound them into dust, they will. Otherwise they won't. Seems simple to me.

524 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:36:35pm

re: #478 MandyManners

Israel can fufill their own needs.

And will.

Iran will be allowed a nuclear option unless and until the current regime is history.

525 reine.de.tout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:37:06pm

re: #517 windsagio

I dunno, I just think back to that article I linked a while ago where they talk about how Syria banned veils in their university system, as part of maintaining a secular state. Doesn't sound like something Iran would be behind to me.

I dunno.
Ahmadinajad apparently holds un-Islamic views on the veil, according to a religious advisor who resigned.

526 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:37:15pm

re: #510 lawhawk

During the Hizbullah war - several UNIFIL outposts were hit by Israeli fire. They held Israel accountable. Yet, all the evidence and facts showed that Hizbullah was firing on Israel from nearby positions - using UNIFIL as human shields. Israel got blamed, but Hizbullah got a pass, even though but for Hizbullah's actions, Israel would not have fired on UNIFIL's positions.

and the money continues to roll in, largely from the US and EU....Lebanon is a real money maker for the UN

527 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:37:24pm

re: #519 albusteve

I could imagine Hez greasing it's wheels via the UN...can't you?

I'm sure they take any grease they can get.

528 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:37:28pm

re: #524 researchok

And will.

Iran will be allowed a nuclear option unless and until the current regime is history.

I wonder how the bazar strikes are going.

529 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:37:29pm

re: #522 Bob Levin

Read the exchange in context, I asked him if he thought they were conspiring, he said 'yes'.

And he wasn't the only one.

If people came out and said:

"I do not believe that the UN is conspiring to kill Jews",

I'd gladly apologize for misunderstanding and go on with my day.

530 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:38:04pm

re: #492 McSpiff

You're the only one arguing that. Peacekeepers can't force anyone to do anything. That's why they are so damn easy to take hostage. Israel knows this. They hoped Hez would disarm, but they knew they'd never be forced.

Israel takes a lot of UN peacekeepers hostage, do they?

531 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:38:28pm

re: #525 reine.de.tout

I tend to think that Iran has a ton of influence over hezbollah, but that Lebanon is run by Syria, and Syria is its own master.

Hard to tell of course, we're all speculating.

532 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:39:24pm

re: #531 windsagio

I tend to think that Iran has a ton of influence over hezbollah, but that Lebanon is run by Syria, and Syria is its own master.

Hard to tell of course, we're all speculating.

do you support an open border with Gaza?

533 MandyManners  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:39:25pm

Gotta' go feed the beasties and get The Kid ready for football practice.

534 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:39:41pm

re: #522 Bob Levin

Grain. Of. Salt. The point, as I hear it, is that once again, Hezbollah is using human shields. That's one of their tactics, to use human shields. You agree that they use human shields, right?

I think you're seeing some deeper meaning that isn't really there. There are people on this blog who honestly think the UN would directly support an armed attack on Israel. As in willfully providing cover for Hez.

535 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:40:00pm

re: #522 Bob Levin

Grain. Of. Salt. The point, as I hear it, is that once again, Hezbollah is using human shields. That's one of their tactics, to use human shields. You agree that they use human shields, right?

Hizbollah cannot be referred to as having an equal and civilized voice.

They are on record as having promised Israel's annihilation ('We'll finish what Hitler started'). Further, Nasrallah himself has been quoted as say9ing he is delighted there are so many Jews in Israel- 'It will save us the trouble of having to round them up'.

No one can possibly believe that negotiating with Hizbollah is something any civilized nation should do.

536 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:40:22pm

re: #525 reine.de.tout

I should add that's a good link, I woulda commented on it if I could :)

Maybe he thinks ditching the mullahs and going police state will keep him in power? >>

537 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:40:39pm

re: #529 windsagio

How do you feel about this statement--

The UN is working very hard to de-legitimize the State of Israel.

538 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:09pm

re: #534 McSpiff

I think you're seeing some deeper meaning that isn't really there. There are people on this blog who honestly think the UN would directly support an armed attack on Israel. As in willfully providing cover for Hez.

what the hell do you call it then?...have you been listening to Lawhawk and LVQ and KT earlier?....

539 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:22pm

re: #530 sattv4u2

Israel takes a lot of UN peacekeepers hostage, do they?

Yup. Exactly what I meant.

///

Israel knew the UN wouldn't be having fire fights outside of Hez bunkers while attempting to destroy arms caches, which LVQ seems to have thought was the case.

540 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:25pm

re: #534 McSpiff

I think you're seeing some deeper meaning that isn't really there. There are people on this blog who honestly think the UN would directly support an armed attack on Israel. As in willfully providing cover for Hez.

The UN directly supports armed attack on Israel every time it condemns Israel for defending herself from attack. Don't be stupid.

541 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:35pm

re: #515 MandyManners

Cheese Eating Victory Monkey's link about what Iraeli scientists are doing to fight cancer.

Gee, Chinless Optometrist and Short Shit, what are your scientists doing?

It is rumored that Syrian and Iranian scientists are on the verge of technological breakthrough. Sources say they have mastered the ice making process.

542 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:49pm

re: #537 Bob Levin

I would feel that is false. There are groups within the UN that feel that way certainly, but you're overselling a fair deal.

(imo)

543 Kragar  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:41:55pm

For the record, I dont think the UN would actually support Hezzballah against Israel. I do think their desire to paint a rosey picture and not rock the boat makes them completely useless as peacekeepers or a trusted partner in any sort of peaceful solution.

544 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:42:27pm

re: #543 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

For the record, I dont think the UN would actually support Hezzballah against Israel. I do think their desire to paint a rosey picture and not rock the boat makes them completely useless as peacekeepers or a trusted partner in any sort of peaceful solution.

QFT.

545 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:42:48pm

re: #540 LudwigVanQuixote

Then you don't know what the word direct means.

546 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:43:35pm

re: #539 McSpiff

Yup. Exactly what I meant.

///

Israel knew the UN wouldn't be having fire fights outside of Hez bunkers while attempting to destroy arms caches, which LVQ seems to have thought was the case.

The UN and the Lebanese government promised Israel that those bunkers would be disarmed and that the missile flow from Syria and Iran would be stopped. That was the cease fire deal.

Olmert was an idiot for taking it, because you are correct, they, the UN and Lebanon, were never seriously planning on doing it. However, that was the deal.

547 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:43:40pm

re: #538 albusteve

You mean the link KT posted that directly contradicted his own title? Right.

548 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:43:46pm

re: #535 researchok

Were you augmenting my point, or thinking I was disagreeing with your statement?

549 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:43:56pm

re: #534 McSpiff

I think you're seeing some deeper meaning that isn't really there. There are people on this blog who honestly think the UN would directly support an armed attack on Israel. As in willfully providing cover for Hez.

UN forces have been complicit (by way of deliberate neglect) in the deaths of thousands in Africa. Why would you suppose they would not be so disposed to the same behavior when it comes to Israel, the nation the UN so demonstrably abhors?

550 Mardukhai  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:44:23pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

This really is truly ridiculous. All this crap, over a tree-trimming.

Of course, it's not at all about a tree-trimming. It's about making sure no substantive talks take place regarding the future of the Palestinian people, imo.

Nothing in the M.E. makes a lick of sense.

And you do? The Hezbutts are looking to start another war because their Iranian employers have given the order. So they open fire. The Palestinian issue has nothing to do with it.

By the way, what was the "press" doing there in the first place? Unless they knew something was about to happen...

551 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:44:42pm

re: #542 windsagio

Explain the fair deal.

552 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:34pm

re: #539 McSpiff

Yup. Exactly what I meant.

///

Israel knew the UN wouldn't be having fire fights outside of Hez bunkers while attempting to destroy arms caches, which LVQ seems to have thought was the case.

Well,, if not, your sentence construction skills need tweaking!

553 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:35pm

re: #540 LudwigVanQuixote

The UN directly supports armed attack on Israel every time it condemns Israel for defending herself from attack. Don't be stupid.

I for one think that the UN has way over-lived it's usefulness.

554 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:42pm

re: #545 McSpiff

Then you don't know what the word direct means.

And you think I enjoy such quibbles and equivocations. If you always whine about the kid who is getting punched in the face, and do your best to hold his arms back while he gets punched, while looking the other way at the bully and saying that the kid getting hit even deserved it from the bully, you are helping the bully.

Spare me the bullshit.

555 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:45:53pm

re: #549 researchok

I don't think peacekeepers would willingly use themselves as human shields for either side. Not buying.

Do they get used as human shields? Yes. But not by choice.

556 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:47:43pm

re: #551 Bob Levin

The only truly important part of the UN is the Security council. They're pretty good on the issue really.

The assembly occasionally passes meaningless crap resolutions, that's true, but its not effectively anything.

Further points:

a) The UN is a very fractious parliment, not a unified front.
b) There's a definite prejudice in this blogs culture, and people sometimes can't see the difference between skeptical of Israel's policies and hating.

557 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:48:10pm

re: #547 McSpiff

You mean the link KT posted that directly contradicted his own title? Right.

no...the wilfull ignorance here does not surprise me

558 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:48:27pm

re: #555 McSpiff

I don't think peacekeepers would willingly use themselves as human shields for either side. Not buying.

Do they get used as human shields? Yes. But not by choice.

well they could of course quit and find other jobs...

559 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:48:38pm

Israel is too culturally and religiously important to people to discuss cleanly, sadly.

560 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:48:41pm

re: #554 LudwigVanQuixote

I don't think screaming "THE UN WANTS ALL JEWS DEAD AND A NEW CALIPHATE TO RISE FROM THE ASHES OF TEL AVIV" helps Israel's position at all. So I do my best to be honest. Was it Blue Berets firing on the IDF today? Nope. Was it pre-planned ambush in co-ordination with the UN? Nope. Does the actions of the UN create an environment where Leb and Hez feel safe in firing on Israel? Yep.

561 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:49:51pm

re: #558 brookly red

well they could of course quit and find other jobs...

Costs about $100,000 cash to buy out of your first 5 year contract with the Canadian Forces. Otherwise no they can't. At best they can get out of that particular deployment.

562 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:49:51pm

re: #555 McSpiff

I don't think peacekeepers would willingly use themselves as human shields for either side. Not buying.

Do they get used as human shields? Yes. But not by choice.

Agrred. They also know that if they tried to interfere with Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist organization they would be instantly killed. They just go along with it.

563 Mardukhai  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:50:08pm

re: #555 McSpiff

I don't think peacekeepers would willingly use themselves as human shields for either side. Not buying.

Do they get used as human shields? Yes. But not by choice.

The UN is there to be a human shield, to protect the Hezbutts. UNIFIL certainly doesn't do anything else. It certainly doesn't try to enforce Resolution 1701.

564 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:50:37pm

re: #562 Killgore Trout

Agrred. They also know that if they tried to interfere with Hamas, Hezbollah or any other terrorist organization they would be instantly killed. They just go along with it.

Agreed with your agreement.

565 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:50:48pm

Panicked UNIFIL Soldiers Took Refuge in a Local Community during Lebanon - israel Gun Fight

Youtube Video
566 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:51:28pm

re: #556 windsagio

The only truly important part of the UN is the Security council. They're pretty good on the issue really.

They are passable largely due to the US veto.

The assembly occasionally passes meaningless crap resolutions, that's true, but its not effectively anything.

Except as propaganda and that is exactly where the Arab league plays its games.

a) The UN is a very fractious parliment, not a unified front.

The UN was created to provide legitimacy for the superpowers during the cold war.

There's a definite prejudice in this blogs culture, and people sometimes can't see the difference between skeptical of Israel's policies and hating.

There is also such a thing as moonbat blindness. So please answer my main questions to you.

As to many of your comments re-Israel, I am certain that you are just wrong. The UN really is deeply biased as an organization against them and has been for some time. The far left really does not get the conflict at all and really does foolishly side with Islamofascists who would kill them in a second. What exactly do you think a Hezzie would do with you for instance?

Supposed liberals routinely attack a nation that is responding to constant siege by theocratic brutal barbarians who pass out sweets when innocents are murdered. Supposed liberals side with brutes who institutionalize the worst abuse of women, the murder of gays, utter repudiation of religious freedom and complete rejection of democracy and higher education. Everything you hate about Fred Phelps is there - only more brutal and with power. Yet, you liberals seem to wiff past that and abuse the only democracy in the region when it defends itself - and honestly bends over backwards - far past any other nation would, including America - to prevent civilian casualties.

How can you so throughly and utterly confuse who the good guys and the bad guys are?

567 califleftyb  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:51:37pm

I went to mow my lawn yesterday, and my neighbor took a shot at me. Is it really about grass?

568 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:51:49pm

re: #559 windsagio

Israel is too culturally and religiously important to people to discuss cleanly, sadly.

you have discussed very little about the issues here...you judgment doesn't mean shit...you can't discuss Israel anymore, unless you lie about your intentions

569 Killgore Trout  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:52:13pm

It's Pretty clear that this was a manufactured indecent by Hezbollah for internal political reasons.....

Youtube Video
570 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:52:36pm

re: #555 McSpiff

I don't think peacekeepers would willingly use themselves as human shields for either side. Not buying.

Do they get used as human shields? Yes. But not by choice.

See the image here.

571 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:52:49pm

re: #559 windsagio

Israel is too culturally and religiously important to people to discuss cleanly, sadly.

Now you are starting to piss me off. By cleanly you mean in ways that agree with your fantasies on the subject clearly. What is it about the good guys here and the bad guys here that has you so obviously confused?

572 Walter L. Newton  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:53:12pm

re: #559 windsagio

Israel is too culturally and religiously important to people to discuss cleanly, sadly.

Except for the fact that you haven't discussed anything, just made some vague statements.

573 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:53:20pm

re: #556 windsagio

Okay, that's an important distinction. You view the UN as primarily the security council, which I think only gets by because of the veto of the US.

I see the UN as the entire body. All of its commissions, the UNRWA, its missions, its resolutions, all of it.

They seem to be very unified when it comes to issues regarding Israel. I think that's been pretty well documented to this point.

Would your opinion change if you saw the UN as a whole and not just the security council?

574 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:53:23pm

re: #567 califleftyb

I went to mow my lawn yesterday, and my neighbor took a shot at me. Is it really about grass?

No It was about your refusal to wear clothing while you mowed

look in a mirror, man!!
//

575 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:54:12pm

re: #571 LudwigVanQuixote

You know yelling "BUT ITS OBVIOUS" doesn't count as an argument right?

576 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:54:18pm

re: #571 LudwigVanQuixote

Now you are starting to piss me off. By cleanly you mean in ways that agree with your fantasies on the subject clearly. What is it about the good guys here and the bad guys here that has you so obviously confused?

the fatc that there IS a "bad guy"

(well ,, the one thats actually ,, umm,, BAD !!!))

577 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:54:26pm

re: #560 McSpiff

I don't think screaming "THE UN WANTS ALL JEWS DEAD AND A NEW CALIPHATE TO RISE FROM THE ASHES OF TEL AVIV" helps Israel's position at all.

Yes, yes... lucky for me, I never wrote that. It is nice to see that moonbats move goalposts create strawmen and shift points just like the wingnuts do when countered with facts.

578 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:55:31pm

re: #577 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, yes... lucky for me, I never wrote that. It is nice to see that moonbats move goalposts create strawmen and shift points just like the wingnuts do when countered with facts.

You're truly a crusader against all evils. Mainly those who don't subscribe to your world view 100%.

579 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:55:38pm

re: #559 windsagio

Israel is too culturally and religiously important to people to discuss cleanly, sadly.

Are you implying that Israel's adversaries are her moral equals?

580 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:55:38pm

re: #566 LudwigVanQuixote

You are a fast typist.

581 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:55:40pm

re: #577 LudwigVanQuixote

Yes, yes... lucky for me, I never wrote that. It is nice to see that moonbats move goalposts create strawmen and shift points just like the wingnuts do when countered with facts.

I tried to tell you that ,, but Noooooo

"Satty is a Gadfly!!!!" you say!!

//

582 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:55:45pm

re: #566 LudwigVanQuixote

Quickly, for the first part I am just as firmly convinced that you're mistaken. Where are we now?

For the second, its tough. To be perfectly honest, I don't think you see the issue clearly due to a number of prejudices and preconceptions you have. Its just not so simple as you present. Beyond that, I don't see much criticism of Israel on here... not real criticism. The worst I ever saw on the flotilla was 'maybe they used bad judgement in doing the raid this way.' The worst on here is 'maybe it was a misunderstanding about the border'.

That's hardly being super-critical if Israel... It just seems like it because there's a deeply defensive mindset on the subject, as well as a monoculture that's not used to being disrupted.


I hope you all will forgive me for any implied slights, but I thought it would only be fair to answer ludwig's question absolutely honestly.

583 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:56:29pm

re: #26 Fozzie Bear

This really is truly ridiculous. All this crap, over a tree-trimming.

Of course, it's not at all about a tree-trimming. It's about making sure no substantive talks take place regarding the future of the Palestinian people, imo.

Nothing in the M.E. makes a lick of sense.

This is a classic post that blames Israel and misses the mark entirely, given the fact that we're dealing with Lebanon and Hezbollah here, not Gaza, the West Bank, or Hamas & Fatah.

The post purposely underscores the tensions, history and current dilemma in the region. It purposely ignores that Israel has done so much to further peace with the Palestinians.

You truly have nothing positive to add to this discussion Fozzie. Glad you took your toys and went home.

584 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:56:36pm

re: #579 researchok

No.

585 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:56:50pm

re: #580 Bob Levin

You are a fast typist.

Doesn't matter

I'm a slow reader!

586 dummnutzer  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:57:14pm

re: #455 avanti

OK, fair enough, but can't they condemn what I'll call a over reaction by the Lebanese ?? BTW, I'm being PC by using over reaction, it could have been anything from a screw up to a ambush.

IMHO: Yes, of course.

Disclosure: I have been following the naval side of UNIFIL for some years, but I am hardly qualified to offer any informed comment about actions on land.

587 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:57:34pm

re: #580 Bob Levin

You can tell the people that took typing back in the day :p

588 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:57:38pm

re: #575 McSpiff

You know yelling "BUT ITS OBVIOUS" doesn't count as an argument right?

Well there are all those pesky facts I keep bringing up... Ohhh you know like:

1. The fence does not go directly to the border specifically so that trees and other things which would prevent the IDF from watching terrorist movements could be removed.

2. The Hezzies are actively hostile to Israel - as todays events clearly have shown - and as if you need any other history lesson. Israel has every reason to need to be able to keep tabs on those monsters.

3. In a routine event, clearing a tree, which the IDF told the UN forces about, the Lebanese opened fire.

4. A Lebanese Journalist was killed and another wounded. Why were the arab press (particularly one from al-akbahr, a hezzie paper there in the first place?) This is a little more evidence that the Hezzies seized the moment to take a provocative action and wanted photos and their own propaganda.

5. The Arabs opened fire and murdered an Israeli officer from across the border. Another is in critical condition. No doubt that is what they wanted for their press releases and home propaganda.

6. Israel returned fire and killed four of the bastards.

7. Almost immediately, the General of the Northern Israeli command mobilized his forces.

8. The Lebanese high command almost immediately began calling Israel asking that things not escalate. There was not so much posturing when they were calling Israel over this. The fact that Israel meant business this time made all the difference.

Remember that post on this very thread?

Or what about pointing out the failures of blue helmets around the world? Bang up job they did in Rwanda don't you think?

Or the past failures of UNIFIL? You really want to debate that? I would love to.

Either, you can bring facts or stop whining like a sissy.

589 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:57:59pm

re: #569 Killgore Trout

It's Pretty clear that this was a manufactured indecent by Hezbollah for internal political reasons...

[Video]

I believe Israel ought to bomb the shit out of Beirut yet again, reduce Hizbollah neighborhoods to cement dust and allow Hassan Nasrallah to once again declare 'a great Hizbollah victory.'

590 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:58:05pm

re: #578 McSpiff

You're truly a crusader against all evils. Mainly those who don't subscribe to your world view 100%.

LVQ has been 100% accurate with his assessments...and I think you have considered that by the absence of any meaningful rebutt

591 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:58:36pm

re: #579 researchok

Are you implying that Israel's adversaries are her moral equals?

yes of course

592 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:58:43pm

re: #583 eclectic infidel

This is a classic post that blames Israel and misses the mark entirely, given the fact that we're dealing with Lebanon and Hezbollah here, not Gaza, the West Bank, or Hamas & Fatah.

The post purposely underscores the tensions, history and current dilemma in the region. It purposely ignores that Israel has done so much to further peace with the Palestinians.

You truly have nothing positive to add to this discussion Fozzie. Glad you took your toys and went home.

I think Fozzie was just trying to say that Hezbollah timed this issue to disrupt impending peace talks. That's what i got out of it...

593 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 3:59:10pm

re: #589 researchok

I believe Israel ought to bomb the shit out of Beirut yet again, reduce Hizbollah neighborhoods to cement dust and allow Hassan Nasrallah to once again declare 'a great Hizbollah victory.'

Yes, because every single person in Beirut is a member of Hezbollah and deserves to be bombed to hell.

594 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:00:28pm

re: #588 LudwigVanQuixote

I agree with your assessment of the events of today 100%. I don't disagree with the assessment of the UN's main bodies being horribly biased against Israel. But I will not accept that UN forces, on the ground, today, did anything to encourage this unprovoked attack on Israel.

595 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:00:29pm

re: #591 albusteve

yes of course

Not on this planet.

596 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:01:27pm

re: #590 albusteve

LVQ has been 100% accurate with his assessments...and I think you have considered that by the absence of any meaningful rebutt


damn steve I like the way you think... you got any sisters?

597 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:02:06pm

re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote
re: #36 windsagio

seriously, why does that make sense.

Is it accepted belief that the UN is in cahoots with the Lebanese or Palestinians in attempts to kill Israelis?


It is rather an established fact.

This is the dumbass shit I reject from LVQ.

598 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:02:07pm

re: #593 windsagio

Yes, because every single person in Beirut is a member of Hezbollah and deserves to be bombed to hell.

Not every German was a Nazi. Should we not have waged war against Hitler?

599 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:02:30pm

re: #582 windsagio

Quickly, for the first part I am just as firmly convinced that you're mistaken. Where are we now?

For the second, its tough. To be perfectly honest, I don't think you see the issue clearly due to a number of prejudices and preconceptions you have. Its just not so simple as you present. Beyond that, I don't see much criticism of Israel on here... not real criticism. The worst I ever saw on the flotilla was 'maybe they used bad judgement in doing the raid this way.' The worst on here is 'maybe it was a misunderstanding about the border'.

That's hardly being super-critical if Israel... It just seems like it because there's a deeply defensive mindset on the subject, as well as a monoculture that's not used to being disrupted.

I hope you all will forgive me for any implied slights, but I thought it would only be fair to answer ludwig's question absolutely honestly.

ONly that was an answer at all.

Either Middle Easter Islamic nations routinely abuse the rights of women, murder gays, torture people, publicly execute them for bizzarre reasons including witchcraft, oppose democracy and the enlightenment and support terror or they do not.

Those are factual statements independent of any bias I may have.

Those are also brutal, terrible, evil things - and yes, that is a moral call on my part, but it is a bias that all civilized people share. So the question, without getting mealy mouthed on your part is why do you tolerate that from the Arab nations and Iran?

The second question was also factually based. Israel is actually a technologically advanced, liberal democracy - much more liberal than the US actually. They bend over backwards to avoid civilian casualties when defending themselves from indiscriminate terrorist attacks and they are under siege.

Again either those statements are true, or they are not.

So why do you not acknowledge that either?

600 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:02:50pm

re: #596 brookly red

damn steve I like the way you think... you got any sisters?

two, I'm the spoiled baby

601 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:02:53pm

re: #598 researchok

Its more I wasn't a big fan of the firebombing of Dresden. See the difference?

602 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:03:15pm

re: #596 brookly red

damn steve I like the way you think... you got any sisters?

One has a mean punch apparently

603 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:03:41pm

re: #595 researchok

Not on this planet.

in the minds of dishonest bigots, the planets are all inside their heads

604 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:03:46pm

re: #593 windsagio

Okay, a perfect example of what I'm talking about. Charles published a picture of exactly where Israel bombed Beirut. It reality, it was only confined to a few strategic places in the entire city. I know that Researchok has seen that map. So I don't take 'bomb the shit' literally.

605 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:04:15pm

re: #589 researchok

I believe Israel ought to bomb the shit out of Beirut yet again, reduce Hizbollah neighborhoods to cement dust and allow Hassan Nasrallah to once again declare 'a great Hizbollah victory.'

I agree but you know, just like Hamas in Operation Cast Lead, Hezbollah scum will hide among civilians, use them as human shields, hide munitions in homes, hospitals, and schools and when Israel is forced to defend herself, all the world will see is how the Zionist entity murdered civilians. The viciously anti-semitic propaganda machine in the Middle East will crank up operations and cast Israel as the evil Zionist entity and a handful of people here will ask, with deer-in-headlights expressions.."How can Israel want peace if it murders civilians!?!"

606 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:04:30pm

re: #593 windsagio

Yes, because every single person in Beirut is a member of Hezbollah and deserves to be bombed to hell.

now of course if you would give the same benefit of the doubt to conservatives people might actually respect your opinion :)

607 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:04:31pm

re: #597 McSpiff

re: #36 windsagio

This is the dumbass shit I reject from LVQ.

Really, so accepting money from the Hezzies to not inspect certain sites doesn't count as being in cahoots. Uhuh...

608 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:04:31pm

re: #599 LudwigVanQuixote

I can gladly acknowledge that there are really terrible things that happen in many islamic nations (altho you're prone to exaggeration).

I can also acknowledge that Israel is a liberal democracy (actually far more liberal than LGF on these subjects).

I will say that neither of those facts have much to do with the prejudice problem.

609 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:26pm

re: #600 albusteve

two, I'm the spoiled baby

I only need one :)

610 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:26pm

re: #604 Bob Levin

I do. Luckily the Israeli government is smarter about these things than some guy over here telling people halfway across the world to kill each other.

611 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:30pm

re: #582 windsagio

So where is your honest answer?

612 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:34pm

re: #607 LudwigVanQuixote

Really, so accepting money from the Hezzies to not inspect certain sites doesn't count as being in cahoots. Uhuh...

Link?

613 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:37pm

re: #597 McSpiff

re: #36 windsagio

This is the dumbass shit I reject from LVQ.

why?...what proof is there otherwise?
ignoring their mission in Lebland should make it obvious

614 sattv4u2  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:05:43pm

re: #596 brookly red

damn steve I like the way you think... you got any sisters?

No

But he cleans up nice ,, AND can walk in stilettos

615 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:06:34pm

re: #610 windsagio

Well, don't.

616 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:06:45pm

re: #614 sattv4u2

No

But he cleans up nice ,, AND can walk in stilettos

shit I can do that...

617 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:07:05pm

re: #601 windsagio

Its more I wasn't a big fan of the firebombing of Dresden. See the difference?

that's not the point...keep your eye on the ball here if you want to be taken serious

618 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:07:48pm

re: #601 windsagio

Its more I wasn't a big fan of the firebombing of Dresden. See the difference?

No- because you can't talk about the bombing of Dresdan without talking about the bombing of Coventry.

Further, whether of not you were a fan isn't germane to the conversation.

War is not pretty and war is not clean. When a democracy goes to war it has to, by necessity, put much of her ideals on the shelf until the war is over.

All war ends by way of disproportionate response. When the cost of waging war is perceived to be too high, wars end.

It really is that simple. As Abba Eban noted, "Men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other options".

619 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:08:07pm

re: #617 albusteve

that's not the point...keep your eye on the ball here if you want to be taken serious

might just be too late for that...

620 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:08:24pm

re: #613 albusteve

why?...what proof is there otherwise?
ignoring their mission in Lebland should make it obvious

Because I think there is a difference between negligence and acting with intent?

621 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:08:53pm

re: #609 brookly red

I only need one :)

they are spoken for

622 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:09:22pm

re: #621 albusteve

they are spoken for

oh well...

623 windsagio  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:09:49pm

ok, its been real, but later >

624 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:10:12pm

re: #608 windsagio

I can gladly acknowledge that there are really terrible things that happen in many islamic nations (altho you're prone to exaggeration).

I can also acknowledge that Israel is a liberal democracy (actually far more liberal than LGF on these subjects).

I will say that neither of those facts have much to do with the prejudice problem.

It is interesting to see moonbats cling to ignorance and stupidity as deeply as wingnuts do.

In order to claim I exaggerated anything, you would have to show that:

1. The Islamic and terrorist organizations in question treat women well? Do they?

2. Don't execute gays? really?

3. Are not theocracies or dictatorships that practice brutality routinely? Care to debate that?

4. Do not support terrorist organizations? That will be rich.

I am deeply unimpressed with your ignorance and poor debate skills.

The same could go for the discussion of Israel and do please stop whining about how persecuted you are as a little liberal.

625 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:10:28pm

re: #616 brookly red

shit I can do that...

heh...maybe but your taste in handbags needs some improving

626 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:10:52pm

re: #624 LudwigVanQuixote

Still waiting for that link.

627 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:11:14pm

re: #625 albusteve

heh...maybe but your taste in handbags needs some improving

I only care about what is inside em...

628 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:11:18pm

re: #626 McSpiff

Still waiting for that link.

It was well reported at the time. Do your own research.

629 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:13:09pm

re: #628 LudwigVanQuixote

What time? What the hell are you even talking about?

630 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:13:28pm

re: #620 McSpiff

Because I think there is a difference between negligence and acting with intent?

the negligence is intended...there is no doubt about the UNs role in Lebanon....they are filthy dirty and get people killed...the UN should be tossed out of the US and funds cut off

631 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:14:16pm

re: #627 brookly red

I only care about what is inside em...

lipsick, powderpuff, Midol etc

632 McSpiff  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:14:32pm

re: #630 albusteve

Rable Rable Rable.

633 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:15:02pm

re: #630 albusteve

the negligence is intended...there is no doubt about the UNs role in Lebanon...they are filthy dirty and get people killed...the UN should be tossed out of the US and funds cut off

right fuckin on!

634 brookly red  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:15:58pm

re: #631 albusteve

lipsick, powderpuff, Midol etc

no Glock?

635 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:16:35pm

re: #624 LudwigVanQuixote

It is interesting to see moonbats cling to ignorance and stupidity as deeply as wingnuts do.

In order to claim I exaggerated anything, you would have to show that:

1. The Islamic and terrorist organizations in question treat women well? Do they?

2. Don't execute gays? really?

3. Are not theocracies or dictatorships that practice brutality routinely? Care to debate that?

4. Do not support terrorist organizations? That will be rich.

I am deeply unimpressed with your ignorance and poor debate skills.

The same could go for the discussion of Israel and do please stop whining about how persecuted you are as a little liberal.

And the narrative is questioned. There will be many sleepless nights.

It never ceases to amaze me how people are so willing to buy into a canned ideological narrative as opposed to actually thinking for themselves. A sign of the times, I suppose.

Sometimes I think we ought to talk about devolution as opposed to evolution.

636 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:19:27pm

Right and wrong, good and evil are not distinguished by ideologies or politics.

At least, they should not.

637 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:20:37pm

re: #634 brookly red

no Glock?

there better be....a little three inch .40

638 albusteve  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:21:43pm

re: #635 researchok

And the narrative is questioned. There will be many sleepless nights.

It never ceases to amaze me how people are so willing to buy into a canned ideological narrative as opposed to actually thinking for themselves. A sign of the times, I suppose.

Sometimes I think we ought to talk about devolution as opposed to evolution.

it's the volume of pablum and tripe eaten in the formative years

639 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:21:51pm

re: #636 researchok

It's done through rigorous and careful questioning.

640 ShaunP  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:23:44pm

re: #637 albusteve

there better be...a little three inch .40

Or a little number like this?

Image: 62392.jpg

641 celticdragon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:24:05pm

re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote

The reporter was there for what purpose? He was a Hezzie propagandist who wanted some nice photos of dead Jews. I rather hope his demise hurt before he went to hell.

This is why it is utterly impossible to have rational discussions about this, and why I won't get involved in these threads.

You know I luv ya to death, Ludwig, but you need to walk that one back. None of us know anything about the people who were killed...and many, if not most of the Lebanese Army soldiers historically have been Arab Orthodox Christians. The Israeli officer died doing his job, and same for the Lebanese soldiers. It was a bad day. Leave it at that.

That is all I will say about it, and I will not respond to anybody else on this thread.

642 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:27:50pm

I sense a lull. You all know that these types of events are going to escalate in the next few weeks, so....I'll see you soon.

643 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:30:13pm

re: #641 celticdragon

This is why it is utterly impossible to have rational discussions about this, and why I won't get involved in these threads.

You know I luv ya to death, Ludwig, but you need to walk that one back. None of us know anything about the people who were killed...and many, if not most of the Lebanese Army soldiers historically have been Arab Orthodox Christians. The Israeli officer died doing his job, and same for the Lebanese soldiers. It was a bad day. Leave it at that.

That is all I will say about it, and I will not respond to anybody else on this thread.

Ludwig and I don't see eye to eye on many issues (he's to my left, for sure.) That said, the Israel issue is hardly debatable. There are realities and there are clear rights and wrongs.

Both he and I understand the Middle East through moral and ethical lenses because that is in fact the essence of the disputes. To imply that these differences are political in nature is absurd, for a myriad of reasons.

You can debate politics and political ideologies till the cows come home. Moral issues however, unite most people because of the clarity they provide.

644 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:42:39pm

re: #534 McSpiff

I think you're seeing some deeper meaning that isn't really there. There are people on this blog who honestly think the UN would directly support an armed attack on Israel. As in willfully providing cover for Hez.

also this, upding

645 Joo-LiZ  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:47:39pm

re: #435 McSpiff

"Monitor", "observe", "assist", etc. None of these things include "force". If Hezbollah says "No, we will not disarm" even privately...well, that's the end of it. That's how the system works. This is the only way the UN can gain entry to many conflict zones is by agreeing to these standards. And I think most people would agree here. No one wants to see Blue Berets firing on the IDF, or arresting IDF personnel.

So you can argue the system is poorly thought out, or that's undermanned (not sure about UNIFL) but unfortunately doing things like screaming "EVERYONE STOP" is really one of the few tools they have.

I think acknowledging that peacekeeping is a flawed idea in many situations is closer to the truth than saying the troops on the ground are incompetent/ in collusion with one side or another/etc.

Absolutely.

646 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:50:43pm

re: #644 WindUpBird

also this, upding

Why is that a stretch? It isn't as if that has not happened before, elsewhere.

A million Rwandans were killed because the UN deliberately did not intervene.

There is just one example.

647 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:53:10pm

re: #337 justaminute

re: #306 LudwigVanQuixote

I upset. I am new here. I have family there and I read some statements about Iran from Israel first supporters here that are incorrect. But there is such a strong voice for Israel I feel that it is pointless to bring it up and there would be too many go on the attack. You can take it back and I typed that before you sent this.

Don't play this "I have family there" card. My daughter and her family live in the Galilee within Hezbollah rocket range. Do you really assume that no one else is as close to the issue as you are, that we're all armchair nukers here?

648 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:54:17pm

re: #341 Cato the Elder

No. I will not share a blog with the likes of Windsagio.

Goodbye, all.

NOOOOOO!

649 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:56:42pm

re: #648 Alouette

NOOO!

Yeah. Cato just said goodbye on the monkeynomics thread. :(

650 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:56:51pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

Cato, email me using the "Contact Babushka" form over at my blog.

651 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 4:59:26pm

re: #649 eclectic infidel

Yeah. Cato just said goodbye on the monkeynomics thread. :(

I missed all the fireworks, so I don't know what transpired. Still, Cato is a fixture here.

And the man has a really warped sense of humor- a fine, fine quality.

652 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:00:48pm

re: #650 Alouette

Cato, email me using the "Contact Babushka" form over at my blog.

Ah, you're the Vicious Babushka?

653 ryannon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:15:08pm

re: #646 researchok

Why is that a stretch? It isn't as if that has not happened before, elsewhere.

A million Rwandans were killed because the UN deliberately did not intervene.

There is just one example.

And Srebrenica is another.

654 Aldous  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 5:53:11pm

Why don't Israel annex Lebanon the same way they are doing to the Palestinian lands? Its not as if anybody is gonna stop them.

655 researchok  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:04:10pm

re: #654 Aldous

Why don't Israel annex Lebanon the same way they are doing to the Palestinian lands? Its not as if anybody is gonna stop them.

How about you pretend you are of average intelligence?

656 Targetpractice  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:06:37pm

re: #655 researchok

How about you pretend you are of average intelligence?

Hell, first I'd like to see 'em pretend to have an IQ above room temperature.

657 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:22:39pm

re: #654 Aldous

FOAD, and take your goddamn terrorist talking points with you!

658 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 6:24:46pm

re: #654 Aldous

Why don't Israel annex Lebanon the same way they are doing to the Palestinian lands? Its not as if anybody is gonna stop them.

Hiya troll.

659 justaminute  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:09:08pm

re: #647 Alouette

Don't play this "I have family there" card. My daughter and her family live in the Galilee within Hezbollah rocket range. Do you really assume that no one else is as close to the issue as you are, that we're all armchair nukers here?

Since I was not here when you posted this. You have posted many, many times of your family in Israel, I don't think my post will ever catch up to yours. And I didn't say anything about nukes, did I.

660 captdiggs  Tue, Aug 3, 2010 7:55:15pm

re: #279 lawhawk

If only the UN acted rationally towards Israel and treated Israel just as every other country on the planet. No other country would get singled out for defending itself the way Israel has. Where was the 100s of resolutions condemning Russia for invading Georgia and South Ossetia? The amount of energy devoted to the Sudanese genocide is a fraction of that spent on the Palestinians in Gaza - despite that Sudan saw hundreds of thousands murdered.

Rwanda was even worse.

And yet the UN continues to put Israel in its own category where it cannot defend itself from terrorists and those same terrorists use the UN as a shield against attacks.

The UN has become nearly a parody.
It's now a place where unfree, non democratic nations that do not have free or fair elections, if any elections at all, revel in the UN's democracy and their ability to vote...against the interests of freedom and democracy.

661 GoldenCalf  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 12:10:23am

To some on this thread, don't let the facts confuse you.
>Israel is always wrong
>Evidence point otherwise
>Hence the evidence is wrong
>Israel is to blame.
Great circular logic!

Now to business:
The trench is in the Israeli border, check it out.
It is usual maintenance which UNFIL knows of and the army of Lebanon.

-Lebanese army confirms: We fired first
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

-UNIFIL says IDF activity did not warrant Lebanese fire
[Link: www.ynetnews.com...]

And there is a video of the first seconds where fire was opened in the links.
Where UNIFIL tells the Lebanon army to NOT FIRE a few times!

According to military experts, it's a mistake of some low ranking military commander in Lebanese army in the field.
This just shows how unstable the area is.

662 judithet  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 4:38:42am

Informing the UN that the IDF would be cutting the tree gave the UN plenty of time to inform the Lebanese Army and then the Lebanese Army could inform Hizhb'Allah (just in case the Lebanese Army didn't get a good kill). And am I saying the UN set this up? You bet I am. And probably called the reporters, too.

663 judithet  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 4:39:35am

And why the heck is UNIFIL there? Oh, probably in case Hizbh'Allah didn't get their backup shot off.

664 nakhmish  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 5:50:16am

First time commenting.
I don't think that pushing the theory that UNIFIL and Hezb are working together to kill Israelis is right or will do Israel much good.
From previous incidents I must go with the theory that UNIFIL in Lebanon as a whole are helpless against anyone holding a gun and saying "I ain't gonna do what you tell me and if you complain you might have a bad accident". Therefore they find it much easier to look the other way when Hezies carry a missile into a peaceful rural house. I think that even though some of their personnel are probably corrupt or highly motivated to aid the cause of the Iranian thugocracy because they perceive it as a legitimate form of Islam, UNIFIL as a group are not evil, just helpless when threatened. The same but worse goes for Lebanon's Army. I'm sure some of it's members are official Hezbs, after all, they are a part of the government.

665 Solomon2  Wed, Aug 4, 2010 8:02:50am

Here is the comment of one Pakistani upon learning that there was no border violation:

Thank God that at least one Israeli senior terrorist was killed in it .. May Allah Grant the Muslim Martyrs Jannat.. I pray that Israeli officer rot in Hell with terrible punishment....

There is no sense among these people that killing an Israeli could be a sin, save possibly for those few Israelis who trumpet their hatred of the State of Israel for all to see.


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