The GOP’s War on Climate Science

Environment • Views: 6,533

In the GOP war against climate science, the latest tactic is to launch “investigations” of their real enemies: the scientists themselves. It’s a pretty obvious political calculation; since they can’t argue with the scientific facts (not honestly, anyway) they’re trying to discredit the researchers personally.

One of the most aggressive attackers among the GOP politicians hounding scientists like Dr. Michael Mann (who has been totally vindicated in several of these pointless politically motivated investigations already) is Virginia Attorney General Ken Cuccinelli.

Mann responds to the harassment today with an op-ed in the Washington Post, appropriately titled: Get the anti-science bent out of politics.

How can I assure young researchers in climate science that if they make a breakthrough in our understanding about how human activity is altering our climate that they, too, will not be dragged through a show trial at a congressional hearing?

America has led the world in science for decades. It has benefited our culture, our economy and our understanding of the world.

My fellow scientists and I must be ready to stand up to blatant abuse from politicians who seek to mislead and distract the public. They are hurting American science. And their failure to accept the reality of climate change will hurt our children and grandchildren, too.

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381 comments
1 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:52:40am

I've posted this before, but it bears repeating:

“There is really no debate about climate change in China,” said Peggy Liu, chairwoman of the Joint U.S.-China Collaboration on Clean Energy, a nonprofit group working to accelerate the greening of China. “China’s leaders are mostly engineers and scientists, so they don’t waste time questioning scientific data.”
...
So while America’s Republicans turned “climate change” into a four-letter word — J-O-K-E — China’s Communists also turned it into a four-letter word — J-O-B-S.

2 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:55:25am

Scientific data is easy to ignore when you think the Earth is 5000 years old and an old man who lives in the sky gave you everything you need to know in one book.

3 Lidane  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:57:10am

I will never, ever understand anyone in politics being anti-science. It makes no damned sense.

Isn't the whole overriding point of national politics to help this country advance and lead? We can't do that in a globalized, technologically savvy world like the one we live in if the people leading it think the world is 6000 years old, or that evolution is a lie, or that vaccines are evil, or that climate change isn't happening. We need people who understand science and technology and how they work, especially now.

4 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 10:58:15am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Scientific data is easy to ignore when you think the Earth is 5000 years old and an old man who lives in the sky gave you everything you need to know in one book.

That, and they believe God will let us do anything we want to the Earth with little to no consequences.

Personal Responsibility!

5 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:00:13am

re: #2 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Scientific data is easy to ignore when you think the Earth is 5000 years old and an old man who lives in the sky gave you everything you need to know in one book.

Repeated for truth.

You can even go one step further, and think about the psychology involved in denying that People can influence the environment and climate. By making that assertion, they absolve themselves (and corporations) from making any changes to their lifestyle and to their operations. After all, if People can't create the problem, then how can People possibly fix the problem.

It's a neat little trick to endure inaction and kind of like learned helplessness.

6 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:01:36am

re: #3 Lidane

I will never, ever understand anyone in politics being anti-science. It makes no damned sense.

Isn't the whole overriding point of national politics to help this country advance and lead? We can't do that in a globalized, technologically savvy world like the one we live in if the people leading it think the world is 6000 years old, or that evolution is a lie, or that vaccines are evil, or that climate change isn't happening. We need people who understand science and technology and how they work, especially now.

These people see science as a full bore assault on their faith.
It drives me bonkers.

7 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:02:15am

re: #4 Varek Raith

That, and they believe God will let us do anything we want to the Earth with little to no consequences.

Personal Responsibility!

If anything bad happens, it was God's plan after all.

8 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:02:58am

re: #6 Varek Raith

These people see science as a full bore assault on their faith.
It drives me bonkers.

Thomas Aquinas would personally bitch slap the lot of them.

9 General Nimrod Bodfish  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:05:39am

The current crop of GOP politicians are doing their best to retard progress in all areas in the US with their anti-science, anti-common sense and religious bigotry. They would love for everyone in the US to be mindless little sheep, blissfully bleating out their Bible verses while ensuring that anyone not "Christian enough" or not white to be treated like second-class citizens.

It's really depressing that people such as these are in positions of power, or are looking into getting into positions of power.

10 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:06:51am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If anything bad happens, it was God's plan after all.

"Make lemonade out of lemons!"
--- Sharrron Angle

11 allegro  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:07:23am

re: #9 commadore183

The current crop of GOP politicians are doing their best to retard progress in all areas in the US with their anti-science, anti-common sense and religious bigotry. They would love for everyone in the US to be mindless little sheep, blissfully bleating out their Bible verses while ensuring that anyone not "Christian enough" or not white to be treated like second-class citizens.

It's really depressing that people such as these are in positions of power, or are looking into getting into positions of power.

That's how they got into power. This is not a bug... it's a feature.

12 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:08:16am

As long as anti-science morons have a seat at the GOP table, no one in the GOP is getting my vote.

13 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:09:13am

President Gingrich Signs Bill Requiring Scientific Results To Be Proven Constitutional

president will declare founder's intent in contested cases by consulting his magic underpants

14 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:09:29am

Those who are anti-science are anti-America. America has been made great by science. The freedom of expression here, combined with the liberty of private industry, have been able to both develop the seeds of scientific discovery and the fruits of applied science here in this nation like no other. It is the main reason we are powerful, and the reason we are rich. We lead the world in patents per capita, we are the heartspring of innovation for the world.

For the GOP to take such a determinedly anti-science bent, not just a cautious tone, or a 'science isn't everything' attitude, but actual persecution of scientists, is the most significant attack on the foundations of prosperity and security for this country that either party has ever made.

15 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:10:11am

re: #3 Lidane

I will never, ever understand anyone in politics being anti-science. It makes no damned sense.

Isn't the whole overriding point of national politics to help this country advance and lead? We can't do that in a globalized, technologically savvy world like the one we live in if the people leading it think the world is 6000 years old, or that evolution is a lie, or that vaccines are evil, or that climate change isn't happening. We need people who understand science and technology and how they work, especially now.

How to I get a passport to live in your United States where the overriding point of national politics is to help the country (and presumably its citizens) advance and lead?*

The one I'm currently experiencing seems to be centered on gaining, maintaining, and expanding the collection of power, money, and influence for one's self and collective political party. And to those ends the use of lies, pandering, demagoguery and proclaimed ignorance are common, and apparently successful, tools.

* - I'm not picky about the color of the sky.

16 allegro  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:10:41am

It's no doubt just a coincidence (wink, wink) but the rise in homeschooled kids just happens to correlate with the current anti-science, anti-intellectual atmosphere of current politics. As a university science prof, the reduced understanding of the most basic science during the past ten years was shocking. One of the biggest reasons I retired early.

17 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:11:31am

Does anyone in GOP leadership actually have a college education? Because they sure as hell don't act like it.

18 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:12:26am

re: #17 darthstar

Does anyone in GOP leadership actually have a college education? Because they sure as hell don't act like it.

Newt has a doctorate in Revisionist History.

19 allegro  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:12:32am

re: #17 darthstar

Does anyone in GOP leadership actually have a college high school education? Because they sure as hell don't act like it.

better

20 engineer cat  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:15:40am

re: #17 darthstar

Does anyone in GOP leadership actually have a college education? Because they sure as hell don't act like it.

but you don't need much of an education to repeat the lies fed to you by the corporatocracy

21 wrenchwench  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:21:49am

re: #14 Obdicut

Those who are anti-science are anti-America. America has been made great by science. The freedom of expression here, combined with the liberty of private industry, have been able to both develop the seeds of scientific discovery and the fruits of applied science here in this nation like no other. It is the main reason we are powerful, and the reason we are rich. We lead the world in patents per capita, we are the heartspring of innovation for the world.

For the GOP to take such a determinedly anti-science bent, not just a cautious tone, or a 'science isn't everything' attitude, but actual persecution of scientists, is the most significant attack on the foundations of prosperity and security for this country that either party has ever made.

There seem to be no comments at the linked op-ed. That would be a good one to put there. It would be a good addition to Mann's piece itself, as an expansion of his sentence: "America has led the world in science for decades. It has benefited our culture, our economy and our understanding of the world. "

22 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:22:43am

Speaking about the GOP

Republican Allies' Spending `Threat' to Democracy, Plouffe Says

Tax-exempt, Republican-leaning groups that don’t have to disclose their donors are playing a central role in this election and pose a “big threat to our democracy,” a top political adviser to President Barack Obama said.

With Republicans poised to make significant gains in the Nov. 2 congressional midterm elections, David Plouffe, Obama’s 2008 campaign manager, took aim at organizations including Crossroads GPS, which is tied to Republican strategist Karl Rove, and the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, which announced a new campaign yesterday targeting Obama administration rules on health care, finance, the environment and labor.

Such independent groups spent more than $39 million, mostly on advertising, during the first four weeks of September, outspending the two political parties combined, according to Federal Election Commission reports. Many of the groups are registered as nonprofits that don’t have to disclose their donors.

“They are becoming the central financial actors in the 2010 election,” Plouffe told reporters in Washington yesterday. “What’s happening out there is really a hijacking of our democracy.”

23 Amory Blaine  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:23:36am

When they take over, I expect many politically motivated inquiries. Maybe Obama will shine Boehners gavel for him given his propensity to accomodate.

24 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:24:49am

re: #20 engineer dog

It's all very good to mock them for being uneducated, but a lot of these people aren't uneducated in the least. There's a great deal of nihilistic behavior here, I believe; that educated people know that climate change is real, and will have an extreme effect on the world, but who think that the US will whether it better than most nations, and truly believe that collective response to AGW will result in, well, more collective organization, which is anathema to them.

I do think that some people oppose action on AGW on principle, holding to an ideology even as it will cause a huge amount of death and destruction on the earth.

There are also those who, though perfectly well educated, have let themselves be comforted by the false hope of the deniers. I used to be in this camp. I used to think that there existed 'regulatory' systems in the world, before I really understood evolutionary systems and that there is no such thing as a stable natural system, but that it's ever in motion.

So simply dismissing the AGW deniers as uneducated fails to deal with a large number of them; the educated who have decided enduring AGW is preferable to allowing liberal policies to increase, and those who, although educated, have allowed themselves to turn a blind eye to the science of AGW in particular.

25 allegro  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:25:49am

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“They are becoming the central financial actors in the 2010 election,” Plouffe told reporters in Washington yesterday. “What’s happening out there is really a hijacking of our democracy.”

Gee, who coulda predicted THAT would happen!

26 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:27:49am

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Any investigations into impropriety on the part of these groups, by the way, will not even start until after the elections are over.

Fat lot of good that will do.

27 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:31:51am

Almost immediately after posting this, a fan of GOP nutjob Arthur Robinson popped up a couple threads down.

28 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:36:37am

re: #24 Obdicut

It's all very good to mock them for being uneducated, but a lot of these people aren't uneducated in the least. There's a great deal of nihilistic behavior here, I believe; that educated people know that climate change is real, and will have an extreme effect on the world, but who think that the US will whether it better than most nations, and truly believe that collective response to AGW will result in, well, more collective organization, which is anathema to them.

We see this quite frequently here, people who when asked refuse to state which factual elements of AGW they disagree with, for whom no amount of evidence could possibly ever move the needle of their belief system. They just don't care, because for these people facts, truth and reality are all fluid concepts grounded only in their own subjective political ideology.

29 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:37:22am

re: #27 Charles

Almost immediately after posting this, a fan of GOP nutjob Arthur Robinson popped up a couple threads down.

Too much of a pussy to show up on a live thread. Typical.

30 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:38:09am

In the spirit of Ace, since he's AWOL, here's a good article on Thorium reactors.

[Link: www.world-nuclear.org...]

Please note:

In mid-2009, AECL signed agreements with three Chinese entities to develop and demonstrate the use of thorium fuel in the Candu reactors at Qinshan in China.

There is no current working design of thorium reactors. They need to be proven out. This is an area where we need a lot of government spending, and a lot of public support.

This will not happen while the GOP is allowed to continue an anti-science agenda. Any of you who are still GOP or are represented by members of the GOP, please call, write, and otherwise let them know that you will not vote or financially support anyone who is an AGW denier, and that you want to see alternative energy research in all areas, supported by the government.

31 Amory Blaine  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:39:31am

re: #27 Charles

Almost immediately after posting this, a fan of GOP nutjob Arthur Robinson popped up a couple threads down.

He who doesn't click on links..

32 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:40:49am

How to Measure the Wisdom of a Crowd

The "intelligence" of a group can be measured, according to a new study, and it has little to do with the brain power of its individual members.

What makes a team more intelligent has more to do with the group's interactions. More equal participation and greater social sensitivity on the part of its members are the key factors in predicting a group's intelligence, according to the study, published online today by the journal Science.

The findings could eventually be useful in screening teams before choosing one to charge with an important task, the authors propose, or in testing strategies for improving groups' performance.

33 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:45:07am

re: #22 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I finally got round to reading Matt Taibbi's piece in Rolling Stone (about the Tea Party) and he ends on an interesting, and very low, note about how our democracy is bought and sold, and the rest is "just noise".

I think that, with the Citizens United case, "we" lost. Possibly not for ever (progress is always possible), but for a good long time.

At times I get annoyed with Taibbi. For all his anti-corporate fireworks, he writes for some pretty consumerist magazines. But with the comments I'm referring to, he opened up a different interpretation of his position: that while he understands what's happening and condemns it, he also realizes that he'll be OK, mostly. It makes him something of a court jester (and I mean that in a positive way).

Some days, I feel that same way. At some point, you have to just accept that people are going to vote against their economic self-interest. Good luck to them. They had a choice, and they chose the Koch brothers. They chose coal. They chose bigotry and sexual repression.

I do feel bad for the people who didn't make this choice and suffer regardless.

34 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:47:07am

re: #32 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How to Measure the Wisdom of a Crowd

Or you could just go with the despair.com take...

35 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:47:48am

re: #33 iossarian

I half-agree with the sentiment, but if I was on a ship and people voted to drill through the hull of the ship while setting it on fire, I wouldn't simply accept that. And that's very close to what we're experiencing right now.

36 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:48:45am

re: #34 publicityStunted

Or you could just go with the despair.com take...

IQ of a committee is the lowest IQ of any individual on the committee divided by the number of members on the committee.

37 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:49:42am

re: #35 Obdicut

I half-agree with the sentiment, but if I was on a ship and people voted to drill through the hull of the ship while setting it on fire, I wouldn't simply accept that. And that's very close to what we're experiencing right now.

But the only option you would have is to be the first off the ship, since the majority has already shown they cannot be reasoned with.

38 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:50:25am

re: #36 oaktree

IQ of a committee is the lowest IQ of any individual on the committee divided by the number of members on the committee.

I love Despair.com.

Their custom calendars make great gifts.

39 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:51:56am

re: #37 imp_62

But the only option you would have is to be the first off the ship, since the majority has already shown they cannot be reasoned with.

Yes. But we've already gutted the space exploration program. That's the equivalent of having already burned the lifeboats in the boiler furnaces to keep up with the current analogy.

40 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:52:39am

re: #38 garhighway

I love Despair.com.

Their custom calendars make great gifts.

If you're asked to volunteer on a suicide prevention hotline, decline.

41 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:53:27am

re: #39 oaktree

Yes. But we've already gutted the lifeboats in the boiler furnaces to keep up with the current analogy.

The US have gutted their space program... There are those amongst us fortunate enough to hold an array of passports

42 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:54:08am

re: #40 Decatur Deb

If you're asked to volunteer on a suicide prevention hotline, decline.

If you live in Corporate America as long as I have, the Despair.com world view becomes the only one that makes any sense.

43 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:54:24am

re: #36 oaktree

IQ of a committee is the lowest IQ of any individual on the committee divided by the number of members on the committee.

A committee is the only known form of life with six or more legs, three or more stomachs and no brain. -Robert A. Heinlein.

44 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:54:46am

re: #37 imp_62

But the only option you would have is to be the first off the ship, since the majority has already shown they cannot be reasoned with.

Well, in the hypothetical example there might be a lot of other possibilities. In this real world, I can voice my opinion and get as many of my fellow citizens to voice their opinions and fight back against those who vote for anti-science candidates.

It's a terrible irony that one of the largest blockers to acceptance of AGW are the older generations, who tend to be larger supporters of the GOP-- precisely the people who are not going to be around to experience the effects of AGW.

45 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:55:14am

re: #40 Decatur Deb

If you're asked to volunteer on a suicide prevention hotline, decline.

I did that once. I had 3 callers commit suicide, and one of those was a wrong number.

///

46 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:55:44am

re: #44 Obdicut

Well, in the hypothetical example there might be a lot of other possibilities. In this real world, I can voice my opinion and get as many of my fellow citizens to voice their opinions and fight back against those who vote for anti-science candidates.

It's a terrible irony that one of the largest blockers to acceptance of AGW are the older generations, who tend to be larger supporters of the GOP-- precisely the people who are not going to be around to experience the effects of AGW.

Ageist punk.

47 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:55:57am

re: #41 imp_62

The US have gutted their space program... There are those amongst us fortunate enough to hold an array of passports

I know where my towel is...

48 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:07am

re: #46 Decatur Deb

Ageist punk.

Get off my lawn.

Wait, what?

49 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:58:55am

There are intelligent people in the GOP, they know that global warming is not a myth or an invention, they just haven't found a way to make a profit from it yet. And they most certainly know how to cynically take advantage of those who refuse to accept it.

Part of it has to do with Al Gore: he made a mistake in thinking that he could retire from politics and then embrace the cause of global warming while putting it above politics.

But he prompted a knee-jerk reaction from anyone who still sees him as Clinton's right-hand man, and that is a key reason that so many people react so strongly against it.

And if attacking the scientists doesn't work then they will attack science itself.

50 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 11:59:56am

re: #44 Obdicut

Well, in the hypothetical example there might be a lot of other possibilities. In this real world, I can voice my opinion and get as many of my fellow citizens to voice their opinions and fight back against those who vote for anti-science candidates.

It's a terrible irony that one of the largest blockers to acceptance of AGW are the older generations, who tend to be larger supporters of the GOP-- precisely the people who are not going to be around to experience the effects of AGW.

That would explain the interest in Florida real estate... and possibly also part of the denial about AGW once one gets there.

51 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:06:10pm

re: #44 Obdicut

That's why Citizens' United is so big. Until now, there's been a back-and-forth, and a lot of vigorous debate, and steady progress (civil rights being the most obvious example). All of the gains have been hard fought, and of course sometimes there are setbacks.

The SC decision fundamentally changes the game. Now that Citizens' United is in place, really, what's the point of fighting any more?

Anyway, that's how I feel on a bad day.

52 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:06:14pm

I am so glad that the scientific community is starting to push back against the lies, smears, distortions and patent lunacy of the GOP and the denial-sphere in general.

I am sorry that I have been called away for so many days. Real life in the meat world does have to take precedence. But I owe the good folks here some writing on thermodynamics and other subjects that are frequently abused by non-science hacks, industry shills, deluded politicians and fundamentalists.

Perhaps after Shabbos I can set to doing that.

One of my main goals will be to go over the notion of what heat actually is from a moleculuar view and from that promote the notion of a microstate. I think that the microcanonical (don't worry about the word) view of entropy is the most intuitive one and the easiest to grasp. Of course, this is my own prejudice as well. I never felt I got thermodynamics until I took statistical mechanics anyway. So I am going to start from there.

From there, we can lay a sound foundation for the laws of thermodynamics and then discuss how glaringly stupid and completely off target, at best, the hacks are.

On a less technical note though, it is important to look at the tactics of professional liars like Art Robinson - or fanatics like Cuccinelli. Consider the MAddow interview with Robinson. His line about a lot more scientists that challenge AGW than those at the UN is a great example of the kind of crap they spew.

First off, he brings the UN up as a bugaboo. This plays neatly the conspiracy theories of the far right, while dismissing the reality of the consensus of the scientific community. First off, there would be no IPCC if there had not been thousands of scientists screaming about this issue for a very long time. In fact, large segments of the scientific community have been seriously concerned about AGW since the 1950's and the first major reports on it by the National Academy started going to the president in the Sixties.

In fact, most in the climate community were outraged at how toned down (almost to the point of falsehood) for political reasons the IPCC reports are.
In fact the IPCC reports are vastly over-optimistic in general.

In the intervening 60 years, since the 1950's, the scientific organizations who openly not just support AGW but are frankly screaming about its reality, include: NASA, NOAA, NSF, APS, AIP, AGU, AAAS, the National Academy of Science, the Royal society, the German, French and Russian Academies, as well as analysts from DoD, NSA, and CIA.

All in all the legitimate scientific community, in the hundreds of thousands, world wide is convinced by the data.

In counter point to this, Robinson and fellow travelers like Cuccinelli would have you believe that this is a UN plot masterminded by Al Gore. This is ludicrious not just because of the fact that there has never in the history of science been such a conspiracy possible, but that they could possibly attribute that sort of organization and discipline to Democrats.

Further, Robinson is still promoting his bogus, fraudulent, debunked and reprimanded by the National Academy petition of "scientists" who oppose AGW. Most on the list are not scientists - let alone in the field. Of those that are actually scientists, almost all were conned by a bait and switch, and have asked that their names be removed. Many on the list never even signed it in the first place, but were added to it by Robinson and co, after one phrase out of a supporting paper was cherry picked to make it sound like a challenge to the overall model. IN short, they wrote papers in support of AGW, had something taken out of context to make it seem that they said the opposite of their findings and then had their names added to the list without their consent.

Yet, Robinson is up there spouting that he is a scientist when he purposefully violates all of scientific ethics and integrity to pose his political views and paranoid conspiracy theories.

53 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:06:48pm

re: #27 Charles

Almost immediately after posting this, a fan of GOP nutjob Arthur Robinson popped up a couple threads down.

Where? I will deal with the freak.

54 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:38pm

re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote

Where? I will deal with the freak.

The Maddow Robinson thread.

55 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:07:50pm

re: #49 ralphieboy

I agree that there was a knee-jerk reaction against Gore, but to be honest I don't think there would have been acceptance however it was presented.

At this point, there is no point in trying to persuade the x%. The only thing to do is to work on the sense of urgency in everyone else, and hope that x is less than 30 or so.

56 Interesting Times  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:08:33pm

re: #53 LudwigVanQuixote

Where? I will deal with the freak.

Here. Unlike the troll, I'm assuming you're not afraid to click on links ;)

57 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:09:19pm

re: #51 iossarian

That's why Citizens' United is so big. Until now, there's been a back-and-forth, and a lot of vigorous debate, and steady progress (civil rights being the most obvious example). All of the gains have been hard fought, and of course sometimes there are setbacks.

The SC decision fundamentally changes the game. Now that Citizens' United is in place, really, what's the point of fighting any more?

Anyway, that's how I feel on a bad day.

Hold your nose and Move.on.

58 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:09:32pm

re: #56 publicityStunted

Here. Unlike the troll, I'm assuming you're not afraid to click on links ;)

EEEK! A LINK! KILL IT! KILL IT!

59 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:15:32pm

'Defence leagues' plan Amsterdam show of support for Geert Wilders

Far right groups modelled on the English Defence League have been set up across Europe and are planning to demonstrate in Amsterdam in support of the Dutch politician Geert Wilders.

French and Dutch "defence leagues" will join the EDL and several other anti-Islamic organisations on 30 October to coincide with the end of Wilders's trial for hate speech and inciting racism.

About 2,000 EDL supporters are expected to demonstrate in Leicester tomorrow. Home secretary Theresa May banned marches in the city this week but the EDL said its protest would go ahead, raising fears of unrest.

60 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:22:16pm

re: #52 LudwigVanQuixote

I am so glad that the scientific community is starting to push back against the lies, smears, distortions and patent lunacy of the GOP and the denial-sphere in general....
Yet, Robinson is up there spouting that he is a scientist when he purposefully violates all of scientific ethics and integrity to pose his political views and paranoid conspiracy theories.

In sum: The truth is out there!
A peaceful shabbos to you.

61 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:23:48pm

Gotta run the boy to crew practice. BBL.

62 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:24:33pm

The thing that bugs me about the GOP's anti science attitudes is how they act like the scientists are bad people and involved in some sinister plot. I don't know much about science but I trust a person who has taken time to learn about the sciences over some right wing blowhard whose only interest is bitching about Al Gore. I still remember Palin's idiotic whining about fruit fly research. Even I someone who has one semester of college science knows that fruit flies are vital to genetics research since they're easy to breed and their genetics can be easily observed.

63 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:26:02pm

re: #62 HappyWarrior

fruit flies are vital to genetics research since they're easy to breed and their genetics can be easily observed.

Genetics is Evil. God creates each animal individually.

64 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:21pm

re: #44 Obdicut

It's a terrible irony that one of the largest blockers to acceptance of AGW are the older generations, who tend to be larger supporters of the GOP-- precisely the people who are not going to be around to experience the effects of AGW.

THIS

65 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:27:43pm

re: #63 ralphieboy

Genetics is Evil. God creates each animal individually.

Yeah Gregor Mendel was a satanist heh.

66 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:28:26pm

re: #65 HappyWarrior

Yeah Gregor Mendel was a satanist heh.


He was Catholic, nearly as bad...

67 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:06pm

BBLre: #66 ralphieboy

He was Catholic, nearly as bad...

A monk, even worse.

68 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:30:26pm

re: #66 ralphieboy

He was Catholic, nearly as bad...

Yep, that's right. I have to say for ally my disagreements with the Catholic Church on things like gay marriage, abortion, and stem cell research I do appreciate that they don't go around comparing evolutionary theory and Darwin's findings to the Nazis.

69 Ericus58  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:31:28pm

re: #62 HappyWarrior

"Even I someone who has one semester of college science knows that fruit flies are vital to genetics research since they're easy to breed and their genetics can be easily observed."

he didn't get the memo:

Youtube Video
70 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:33:41pm

re: #68 HappyWarrior

Yeah, they just insist the Nazis were atheists. Somehow.

71 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:25pm

re: #70 Obdicut

Yeah, they just insist the Nazis were atheists. Somehow.

Yeah it's silly. It's like when they say some of the Nazis were gay. As if that should be a reason to discriminate against people. Some Nazis were straight christians. Don't see Bryan Fischer and the AFA saying we should discriminate against them. These people totally forget the lesson of the Nazis and regimes like them. It is that we don't persecute people who are different than us.

72 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:37:25pm

Jew Runs Over Mob of Rock-Throwing Youths

Liveleak Video

Notice how many adult photographers are on the scene filming the children attacking cars. It looks like one of the photographers throws rocks himself at one point. Disgraceful.
73 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:38:15pm

I just made Shoo Fly Pie for Pie Day.

This is something that I have never made before, or even tasted. It came out kind of like gingerbread in a pie crust, with a gooey bottom. I guess this is what it supposed to taste like, not bad, but very molasses-y even though I only used 1/2 the molasses in the original recipe and 1/2 dark corn syrup.

74 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:39:53pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Jew Runs Over Mob of Rock-Throwing Youths

[Video]
Notice how many adult photographers are on the scene filming the children attacking cars. It looks like one of the photographers throws rocks himself at one point. Disgraceful.

What was the guy supposed to do? Wait for the mob to smash out his windshield and passenger windows and drag him out of the vehicle and beat him to death?

That was some real fine defensive driving.

75 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:07pm

re: #73 Alouette

I just made Shoo Fly Pie for Pie Day.

This is something that I have never made before, or even tasted. It came out kind of like gingerbread in a pie crust, with a gooey bottom. I guess this is what it supposed to taste like, not bad, but very molasses-y even though I only used 1/2 the molasses in the original recipe and 1/2 dark corn syrup.

Ohhh... you are killing me!

I'm originally from Central PA... I miss shoo fly pie very much sometimes...

76 HappyWarrior  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:12pm

re: #69 Ericus58

"Even I someone who has one semester of college science knows that fruit flies are vital to genetics research since they're easy to breed and their genetics can be easily observed."

he didn't get the memo:

[Video]

You gotta give the president credit, that was an awesome fly smack :). Those things are hard to kill. When the bees used to raid our dugout in little league, I used to kill those bastards with my bareheads heh.

77 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:18pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Jew Runs Over Mob of Rock-Throwing Youths

[Video]
Notice how many adult photographers are on the scene filming the children attacking cars. It looks like one of the photographers throws rocks himself at one point. Disgraceful.

If you run in front of a moving car, you deserve to get hit. But then again, I'm an asshole.

78 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:40:48pm

re: #74 Alouette

What was the guy supposed to do? Wait for the mob to smash out his windshield and passenger windows and drag him out of the vehicle and beat him to death?

That was some real fine defensive driving.

I will refrain from speed bump jokes.

79 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:06pm

re: #72 Killgore Trout

Jew Runs Over Mob of Rock-Throwing Youths

[Video]
Notice how many adult photographers are on the scene filming the children attacking cars. It looks like one of the photographers throws rocks himself at one point. Disgraceful.

You know, when a group charges my car throwing things, especially when they've been known to unload ak-47s into pregnant women and blow themselves up, stopping is not something I would consider.

80 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:41:47pm

re: #74 Alouette

What was the guy supposed to do? Wait for the mob to smash out his windshield and passenger windows and drag him out of the vehicle and beat him to death?

That was some real fine defensive driving.

It looks like they busted his back window. It makes me furious to see all those adults standing around filming while the children put their lives in danger to attack cars.

81 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:42:04pm

re: #77 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you run in front of a moving car, you deserve to get hit. But then again, I'm an asshole.

The debate here is again not on how individuals or even groups react in situations like this, but how such conditions came to be the status quo.

82 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:43:14pm

re: #3 Lidane

I will never, ever understand anyone in politics being anti-science. It makes no damned sense.

Isn't the whole overriding point of national politics to help this country advance and lead? We can't do that in a globalized, technologically savvy world like the one we live in if the people leading it think the world is 6000 years old, or that evolution is a lie, or that vaccines are evil, or that climate change isn't happening. We need people who understand science and technology and how they work, especially now.

I think the overriding point of politics has become to line the pockets of industry in the hope (cough, cough) that it will trickle down into the pockets of the middle class.

83 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:22pm

OK right now I am pissed. My daughter just called to tell me that my brother-in-law, her uncle, is crashing over at her shitty third-floor walkup apartment, while he attends some medical conference.

This guy is a radiation therapy specialist and could well afford to stay at a classy primo hotel in Manhattan, but he chose to take advantage of my daughter who has seven kids.

Or maybe he is just phobic about bedbugs.

Either way, he's a putz, but if my daughter puts up with him that's her choice.

84 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:44:45pm

AP had a man on the scene

It seems Reuters no longer publishes pics from the West Bank or Gaza.

85 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:27pm

re: #84 Killgore Trout

AP had a man on the scene

It seems Reuters no longer publishes pics from the West Bank or Gaza.

Reuters would have had 3 kids on the hood.

86 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:46:59pm

re: #83 Alouette

OK right now I am pissed. My daughter just called to tell me that my brother-in-law, her uncle, is crashing over at her shitty third-floor walkup apartment, while he attends some medical conference.

This guy is a radiation therapy specialist and could well afford to stay at a classy primo hotel in Manhattan, but he chose to take advantage of my daughter who has seven kids.


Let the kids come and jump on his head at 6am...

87 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:47:38pm

re: #85 Cannadian Club Akbar

Reuters would have had 3 kids on the hood.

There's a bad joke about boyz and da hood looming here, but I will not go there

88 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:13pm

re: #86 ralphieboy

Let the kids come and jump on his head at 6am...

Agreed. 7 kids? I'd prolly sleep in a dumpster. (I do like kids, don't get me wrong)

89 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:48:32pm

re: #86 ralphieboy

Let the kids come and jump on his head at 6am...

and up their sugar for the next couple days.

90 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:53:54pm

My gubner throws like my President. Heh.

Youtube Video
91 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:52pm

re: #77 Cannadian Club Akbar

If you run in front of a moving car, you deserve to get hit. But then again, I'm an asshole.

Not much else to do. Drivers have been killed in situations like that.

92 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:56:55pm

re: #90 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gubner Crist will never make it as a Palestinian youth throwing like that.
//

93 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:02pm

re: #86 ralphieboy

Let the kids come and jump on his head at 6am...

"UNCLE MOISH! UNCLE MOISH! EEMA SAID YOU'D TAKE US ALL OUT FOR WAFFLES!!!"

94 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 12:58:25pm

re: #9 commadore183

The current crop of GOP politicians are doing their best to retard progress in all areas in the US with their anti-science, anti-common sense and religious bigotry. They would love for everyone in the US to be mindless little sheep, blissfully bleating out their Bible verses while ensuring that anyone not "Christian enough" or not white to be treated like second-class citizens.

It's really depressing that people such as these are in positions of power, or are looking into getting into positions of power.

I agree with everything you have said except the bit about the common sense. They in fact worship common sense and believe it is a more reliable indicator of reality than science. Try to tell them science was in part developed as an algorithm to counteract the misleading information our common sense can give us and they look at you sideways and call you a damn liberal elitist sitting in an ivory tower.

95 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:02:53pm

re: #93 SanFranciscoZionist

"UNCLE MOISH! UNCLE MOISH! EEMA SAID YOU'D TAKE US ALL OUT FOR WAFFLES!!!"

He did this to my kids when they were little:

"Mommy! Mommy! Uncle A***** is taking us to the dollar store! Give us each a dollar!"

96 steve  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:03:02pm

Speaking of climate change, this just in
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

97 Vicious Babushka  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:34pm

He is the cheapest prick who ever lived. I think I should write a book about his cheapass exploits.

98 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:04:34pm

re: #96 steve

Speaking of climate change, this just in
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]

That's good news. I'm glad they discovered the faulty calculations.

99 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:05:15pm

re: #97 Alouette

He is the cheapest prick who ever lived. I think I should write a book about his cheapass exploits.

On McDonald's napkins.

100 steve  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:06:50pm

re: #98 Charles

That's good news. I'm glad they discovered the faulty calculations.

Yeah, what else is faulty?

101 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:07:00pm

re: #98 Charles

That's good news. I'm glad they discovered the faulty calculations.

This part is not good...

"The overestimate, which comes after another bad calculation by the air board on diesel-related deaths that made headlines in 2009, prompted the board to suspend the regulation this year while officials decided whether to weaken the rule."

Throwing the baby out with the bath water?

102 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:10:43pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

It looks like they busted his back window. It makes me furious to see all those adults standing around filming while the children put their lives in danger to attack cars.

This is SOP for many factions in the West Bank and Gaza. How do you think we get treated to so many helpings of "Youth Throwing Stones While Resisting Occupying Forces" on rye, or "Women Fleeing From Advancing Occupying Force Tanks" with cheese? These are for the most part carefully staged Pallywood PR clips.

103 steve  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:11:18pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

This part is not good...

"The overestimate, which comes after another bad calculation by the air board on diesel-related deaths that made headlines in 2009, prompted the board to suspend the regulation this year while officials decided whether to weaken the rule."

Throwing the baby out with the bath water?

Or draining some of the water so the baby can still have its bath.

104 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:22pm

If anyone here remembers the original attack on Mann's hockey stick graph (which he mentioned was speculative in the paper) one of the main sticks used to pummel Mann was the Wegman report.

Well, Wegman is now under an investigation for plagiarism and falsification of that paper, by his university.

105 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:12:51pm

I got a hat tip from Media Matters: Fox's Napolitano joins 9-11 Truther Alex Jones to push anti-government conspiracy theories
Nice.

106 b_sharp  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:13:43pm

BBL

107 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:16:02pm

re: #105 Killgore Trout

I got a hat tip from Media Matters: Fox's Napolitano joins 9-11 Truther Alex Jones to push anti-government conspiracy theories
Nice.

The craziness has not really changed all that much in the past 20 years. It's just that now the crazies have a forum - heck, several fora. Texas was always going to secede, that's why the gubment kept them black CEE AYE AY helicopters in undisclosed locales around Dallas and Houston.

108 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:24:58pm

what the heck happened to everyone????

109 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:25:20pm

re: #108 imp_62

what the heck happened to everyone???

Looking for a job.

110 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:26pm

Dow's back over 11,000. Cue conspiracy claims in 3..2..1..

111 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:32pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Looking for a job.

I sent out 2 more resumes today.:(

112 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:47pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

Looking for a job.

Oh - didn't you hear?
Poor US jobs data open way for stimulus
By Robin Harding, Alan Beattie and James Politi in Washington
Published: October 8 2010 20:24 | Last updated: October 8 2010 20:24
Worse-than-expected September jobs figures underlining the US economy’s chronic weakness has removed the last major hurdle to a new stimulus programme by the Federal Reserve.

News that the US lost 95,000 jobs in September pushed the dollar briefly below 82 to the yen for the first time since 1995, a development that analysts say could become entrenched as a result of the widely expected stimulus.

113 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:26:58pm

re: #110 darthstar

Dow's back over 11,000. Cue conspiracy claims in 3..2..1..

And that means what?

114 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:12pm

re: #108 imp_62

what the heck happened to everyone???

Influx of folk at my workstation with "we need this done right now" requests.

a.k.a. job security

115 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:27:14pm

re: #110 darthstar

Dow's back over 11,000. Cue conspiracy claims in 3..2..1..

Soros bought some stuff.
/Happy to help

116 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:11pm

re: #114 oaktree

Influx of folk at my workstation with "we need this done right now" requests.

a.k.a. job security

You really need to see Office Space.

117 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:28:31pm

re: #111 Cannadian Club Akbar

I sent out 2 more resumes today.:(

Sending out resumes is something you do to tell yourself you are doing something. You have to polish knobs (NO, not that way - unless...), network, and get in the face of everybody you know. That is the only proven path to success.

118 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:08pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

And that means what?

It means the Dow didn't close under 11,000.

119 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:49pm

re: #118 darthstar

It means the Dow didn't close under 11,000.


re: #115 Cannadian Club Akbar

Soros bought some stuff.
/Happy to help

1924 - The stock market begins its spectacular rise. Bears little relation to the rest of the economy.

1928- Between May 1928 and September 1929, the average prices of stocks will rise 40 percent. The boom is largely artificial.

TIMELINES OF THE GREAT DEPRESSION

[Link: www.hyperhistory.com...]

120 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:30:53pm

re: #117 imp_62

No face to face. All internet listings. Plus, if word gets back to my current employer, I might lose hours until I quit. I'm only getting 20 hours now.

121 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:31:29pm

re: #120 Cannadian Club Akbar

No face to face. All internet listings. Plus, if word gets back to my current employer, I might lose hours until I quit. I'm only getting 20 hours now.

Are you getting paid for those hours?

122 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:32:14pm

re: #121 imp_62

Are you getting paid for those hours?

Not bitchin'. Just sayin'.

123 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:32:31pm

I don't even know what to say about this. The school district clearly has a major problem, and is doing nothing.

MSNBC Video
124 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:33:08pm

re: #119 Walter L. Newton
OMG! Socialism!

U.S. stocks ended firmly higher on Friday, with the Dow industrials ending above 11,000 for the first time in five months, after a worse-than-expected jobs report lifted expectations the Federal Reserve will soon boost monetary stimulus.
125 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:33:33pm

re: #122 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not bitchin'. Just sayin'.

You misunderstand! I know you have been worried about getting paid, so you shouldn't be too concerned about losing the job - I would never accuse you of bitching.

126 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:34:14pm

re: #124 Killgore Trout

OMG! Socialism!

Is that what you are calling it now a days?

127 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:34:53pm

re: #123 imp_62

I don't even know what to say about this. The school district clearly has a major problem, and is doing nothing.
[Link: www.msnbc.msn.com...]

I hate shit like this.

128 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:36:21pm

re: #118 darthstar

It means the Dow didn't close under 11,000.

And it went up because the Dow responded to the Fed. So now we have the Dow above 11,000. The Fed, a government body, helped promote this. TARP kept Wall Street alive. We also have record amounts of cash being horded by the banks and corporations yet there is still no investment and job creation from the private sector. All indicators are up thanks in large part because of government action and the billionaires are sitting on their asses and the wingnut shills can only blame Obama.

130 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:37:43pm

re: #128 Gus 802

And it went up because the Dow responded to the Fed. So now we have the Dow above 11,000. The Fed, a government body, helped promote this. TARP kept Wall Street alive. We also have record amounts of cash being horded by the banks and corporations yet there is still no investment and job creation from the private sector. All indicators are up thanks in large part because of government action and the billionaires are sitting on their asses and the wingnut shills can only blame Obama.

Inflation is goung to come upon us like a veritable shitstorm once the economy heats up. Money supply is going to be way outside acceptable norms.

131 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:40:52pm

re: #130 imp_62

Somehow you have to adjust the inflated value of real estate and other fixed assets. You can do it by waiting for property prices to come down, but that blows because then people are unable/unwilling to move (which adds a huge element of inflexibility to the economy). Or you can have inflation.

Either way you look at it there will be some kind of asset devaluation.

132 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:41:55pm

re: #131 iossarian

Somehow you have to adjust the inflated value of real estate and other fixed assets. You can do it by waiting for property prices to come down, but that blows because then people are unable/unwilling to move (which adds a huge element of inflexibility to the economy). Or you can have inflation.

Either way you look at it there will be some kind of asset devaluation.

Plain English translation... things aren't going to be worth shit.

133 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:42:11pm

re: #128 Gus 802

We also have record amounts of cash being horded by the banks and corporations

They are "hording cash" because they still don't have a handle on
A) how much health care is REALLY going to cost them
B) they have no idea what their tax rates are going to be

They may need that "horded cash" (another word for profits they made post EBITDA) to pay off A and B

134 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:42:36pm

re: #132 Walter L. Newton

Plain English translation... things aren't going to be worth shit.

Not true. Bread will $7 a loaf.
/

135 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:42:52pm

This kind of lunacy is inevitable in a culture that openly embraces magical thinking. We are one of the most openly religious countries in the developed world, and also one of the most likely to actively reject good science. This is doubly true if the science conflicts with religious dogma (the world is 6000 years old), and triply true if it also conflicts with unfounded political/economic dogma (the free market can and will fix everything, if we can only eliminate the social contract completely).

Zealots don't worry about the environment, since the rapture/great jihad/mothership is coming. We have a lot of zealots in the US.

136 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:43:25pm

re: #134 Cannadian Club Akbar

Not true. Bread will $7 a loaf.
/

sliced, add another $4

(union slicers!!!)

137 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:44:16pm

re: #136 sattv4u2

sliced, add another $4

(union slicers!!!)

Ya godda problem wid dat?

138 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:44:56pm

re: #131 iossarian

Somehow you have to adjust the inflated value of real estate and other fixed assets. You can do it by waiting for property prices to come down, but that blows because then people are unable/unwilling to move (which adds a huge element of inflexibility to the economy). Or you can have inflation.

Either way you look at it there will be some kind of asset devaluation.

The additional problem is that the Fed will not be able to raise rates gradually; rates will likely have to shoot up to sop up all the excess cash floating around.

By the way, I found this after looking at the O'Donnell parody beekiller posted:

Image: bill_the_cat_forPrez.gif

139 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:44:56pm

re: #137 Decatur Deb

Ya godda problem wid dat?

Great ,,,union slicers WITH Mafia muscle!!!

Add another $10 per loaf!

140 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:45:00pm

re: #132 Walter L. Newton

Actually, they already aren't worth shit.

Tried to sell a house lately?

141 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:45:07pm

re: #136 sattv4u2

sliced, add another $4

(union slicers!!!)

Fuck 'em. I have a bread maker made in Taiwan and a bread knife made in China.
/

142 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:45:51pm

re: #140 iossarian

Actually, they already aren't worth shit.

Tried to sell a house lately?

Losing one is MUCH easier. TRUST ME!!

143 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:06pm

re: #133 sattv4u2

We also have record amounts of cash being horded by the banks and corporations

They are "hording cash" because they still don't have a handle on
A) how much health care is REALLY going to cost them
B) they have no idea what their tax rates are going to be

They may need that "horded cash" (another word for profits they made post EBITDA) to pay off A and B

No. They need to horde the cash so they can pay some prick CEO 30 million dollars a year for doing jack shit. The banks have been doing so since 2008. Tired of the tax excuse. Those blowhards will be able to find new deductions.

144 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:15pm

re: #140 iossarian

Actually, they already aren't worth shit.

Tried to sell a house lately?

No... I got in on the fun early, about 5 years ago, I gave my house away... back to the bank... I was on the riding edge of this economic downturn... always a trend setter.

145 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:16pm

re: #139 sattv4u2

Someone hit me with that last night--FBV, I think.

146 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:46:34pm

re: #134 Cannadian Club Akbar

"Have you had the bread?" - John Pinette

and just for friday funnies:

Youtube Video
147 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:48:21pm

re: #146 Dreggas

My gosh. That guy has always been big. And now he's bigger!!

148 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:48:50pm

re: #141 Cannadian Club Akbar

Fuck 'em. I have a bread maker made in Taiwan and a bread knife made in China.
/

Are they legal or illegal immigrants?

// ;)

149 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:10pm

The three evil looking illegal immigrants in Angle's latest racist TV ad? Turns out that it "was a picture of Mexicans in Mexico." - three farmers who hoped to cross into the US but the photographer doesn't know if they ever did.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

Oh, and Diaper David Vitter used the same pic for the same reason...to scare people.

150 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:10pm

re: #147 Cannadian Club Akbar

actually he lost weight, he's lost a lot since that one, that one is old.

151 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:30pm

re: #143 Gus 802

No. They need to horde the cash so they can pay some prick CEO 30 million dollars a year for doing jack shit. The banks have been doing so since 2008. Tired of the tax excuse. Those blowhards will be able to find new deductions.

Lets play a game

Lets say Company X's forecast was that it was going to lose 100 million next year
Lets say CEO candidate comes in with a plan that guarantees the losses will only be 25 million and he states that if at the end of the year it's more than 25 million, the company owes him nothing, but if it's a loss of 25 million or less the company pays him 30 million

SO ,,,, if he succeeds, the company is out 55 million instead of 100 million

Good plan!?!?!?

152 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:49:54pm

re: #148 oaktree

Are they legal or illegal immigrants?

// ;)

I actually have an illegal living with me from...wait for it...Canada.

153 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:16pm

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

I actually have an illegal living with me from...wait for it...Canada.

Lumberjack?

154 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:35pm

re: #133 sattv4u2

We also have record amounts of cash being horded by the banks and corporations

They are "hording cash" because they still don't have a handle on
A) how much health care is REALLY going to cost them
B) they have no idea what their tax rates are going to be

They may need that "horded cash" (another word for profits they made post EBITDA) to pay off A and B

On point b, is there some sort of effort underway to significantly alter corporate tax rates? If so, I missed that.

155 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:44pm

re: #153 oaktree

Lumberjack?

Is he OK?

156 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:45pm

re: #153 oaktree

likes to press wild flowers?

157 aurelius  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:52pm

I think a lot of the wingnuts don't think they're anti-science.

they like some science-- like meat preservatives and TVs.

the problem is you can't pick and choose which science you like and which you don't.

158 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:50:57pm

re: #153 oaktree

Lumberjack?

Long haired skateboarder.

159 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:51:12pm

Here is teh re: #153 oaktree

Lumberjack?

Youtube Video
160 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:51:39pm

re: #154 garhighway

On point b, is there some sort of effort underway to significantly alter corporate tax rates? If so, I missed that.

If individual rates go up,, ALL rates including kicking into SS, companies have to match what the gov't deducts from you

161 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:51:52pm

re: #158 Cannadian Club Akbar

Long haired skateboarder.

Ah. Refugee...

162 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:51:59pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

Lets play a game

Lets say Company X's forecast was that it was going to lose 100 million next year
Lets say CEO candidate comes in with a plan that guarantees the losses will only be 25 million and he states that if at the end of the year it's more than 25 million, the company owes him nothing, but if it's a loss of 25 million or less the company pays him 30 million

SO ,,, if he succeeds, the company is out 55 million instead of 100 million

Good plan!?!?!?

Sounds like extortion. But it's really a form of social extortion. You don't need to pay someone 30 million dollars a year to save 45 million. No dice. I don't buy the bullshit that you can only attract the "best and the brightest" by paying them extraordinary compensation.

163 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:52:54pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Sounds like extortion. But it's really a form of social extortion. You don't need to pay someone 30 million dollars a year to save 45 million. No dice. I don't buy the bullshit that you can only attract the "best and the brightest" by paying them extraordinary compensation.

How's that extortion?

It's called paying for a talent, or a plan,, or an intellectual idea

164 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:53:32pm

re: #6 Varek Raith

These people see science as a full bore assault on their faith.
It drives me bonkers.

Most of the players here have no religious stake in the game. Their concerns are purely secular. If the science ever comes to be generally accepted by the public, there will be legislative consequences, consequences that are not in their own personal interest, or the interests of some vote-rich, single-issue segment of the electorate. So they fight to discredit the science.

The people they have any chance of persuading are part of the vast majority who do not themselves have much of a knack for science, or much of an education in it. As with any specialized field, the best a layman can do is to look to the recognized experts and trust them.

Attacks on the personality and integrity of the recognized experts are an effective tactic. Who is going to trust somebody that's under attack? We see this across the board. Remember "General Betray-us?" Good men have their names dragged through the mud because they have done good work in the service of a good cause that bad actors want to see fail.

This time, the bad actors include, it grieves me to say, the better part of the Republican party. Gentlemen, you would, in the normal course of events, have my vote most of the time. You've forfeited that because nothing else matters as much as this, and on this, you're willfully wrong.

Long term, this doesn't even serve your own interests. You can't really be a governing party if you sever all connection with the educated, secular, scientific-realist community. The history of know-nothing movements is a history of ever more reality-challenged claims, which are discredited one after the other, impelling the movement to seek refuge in a community of similarly reality-challenged folk. Catering to their beliefs requires an ever broader spectrum of reality-free positions, and you end up a laughing stock.

165 aurelius  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:00pm

They need toe realize science is not all about adding antibiotics to bacteria in petri dishes.

You can't always do the right controlled experiment.

But science gives us humanity's best guess at any one moment in time.

166 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:10pm

re: #152 Cannadian Club Akbar

I actually have an illegal living with me from...wait for it...Canada.

You got the first snowbird! We didn't even see them migrate through Lower Alabama.

167 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:24pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

You obviously have little familiarity with CEO pay structures.

IMO, corporations are sitting on cash because there is no demand out there. 90% of the population can't buy anything because they haven't had a raise in real terms since 1970, they've maxed out the credit cards, and their households are maximally employed (if they are lucky enough to still have jobs).

Why make widgets if there is no-one to buy them off you?

168 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:24pm

re: #163 sattv4u2

How's that extortion?

It's called paying for a talent, or a plan,, or an intellectual idea

Pay an actor 20 million for a movie. Pic has a 100 million budget. Flops. Should the actor give money back?

169 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:54:39pm

re: #163 sattv4u2

How's that extortion?

It's called paying for a talent, or a plan,, or an intellectual idea

Right. Yes indeed. Talent.

lol

170 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:55:13pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

Lets play a game

Lets say Company X's forecast was that it was going to lose 100 million next year
Lets say CEO candidate comes in with a plan that guarantees the losses will only be 25 million and he states that if at the end of the year it's more than 25 million, the company owes him nothing, but if it's a loss of 25 million or less the company pays him 30 million

SO ,,, if he succeeds, the company is out 55 million instead of 100 million

Good plan!?!?!?

How amny CEO's do you see offering to work for nothing?

The more usual scenario is like this:

"Pay me $5M per year salary, a bonus of $20M and 1M options. I take a mountain of risk to juice the stock price so the options are rich. If I succeed, I get it all. if I fail, I blow up the company and only get the salary."

171 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:55:37pm

re: #166 Decatur Deb

You got the first snowbird! We didn't even see them migrate through Lower Alabama.

Illegal and gets food stamps. And soon, a free cell phone with 250 minutes.

172 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:55:48pm

re: #167 iossarian

You obviously have little familiarity with CEO pay structures.

You obviously have little familiarity with what I know, so take your condescending BS and place it where it's not to be seen!

173 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:55:51pm

Image: vaseline.jpg

174 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:56:07pm

re: #160 sattv4u2

If individual rates go up,, ALL rates including kicking into SS, companies have to match what the gov't deducts from you

Do you not understand the term "corporate tax rate", or did you simply choose to give me a nonresponsive answer?

175 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:56:43pm

Image: crisco-0314.jpg

176 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:56:54pm

re: #164 lostlakehiker

It's a lot simpler, I think. Certain folks don't have the intellectual horsepower to come to terms with science. So they take a very basic, innately primitive approach: kill it just in case it is a threat. And on top of these otherwise american-as-apple-pie people are being manipulated by astroturf populists who want to get their snout into the public trough so badly they walk around with a permanent erection (figuratively speaking).

177 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:56:59pm

re: #170 garhighway

Exactly. CEO (and indeed executive/board) pay is always structured on the lines of: fail and get moderately rewarded, succeed and get megabucks.

There is never a real penalty for failure.

178 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:36pm

OK all, I have to roll out for Shabbos. Miss S. is coming over in about 30 minutes and I need to be pretty :)

I hope that everyone has a wonderful weekend. You are all good folks and don't let my periods of nonappearance make you think I am not around.

179 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:36pm

re: #173 Gus 802

Image: vaseline.jpg

re: #175 Gus 802

Image: crisco-0314.jpg

Careful, everyone...Gus is gettin' loose!
:)

180 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:40pm

Well... I have to go to work to make some CEO a ton of money... what a jerk I am.

181 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:57:41pm

re: #170 garhighway

How amny CEO's do you see offering to work for nothing?

[Link: www.statesman.com...]

182 Fozzie Bear  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:16pm

re: #151 sattv4u2

Lets play a game

Lets say Company X's forecast was that it was going to lose 100 million next year
Lets say CEO candidate comes in with a plan that guarantees the losses will only be 25 million and he states that if at the end of the year it's more than 25 million, the company owes him nothing, but if it's a loss of 25 million or less the company pays him 30 million

SO ,,, if he succeeds, the company is out 55 million instead of 100 million

Good plan!?!?!?

That's not really an argument that makes any sense. You could just as easily find someone to run the company for a mere 5 million a year who is just as intelligent and capable. It's not like there is some magical CEO gene which makes people super smart. They are just massively overpaid, and that excess compensation could (and I would argue should) be directed wither toward lowering the prices of their products, paying their rank-and-file employees more, and/or paying greater dividends to the actual owners of the company, the stockholders.

Paying a single person 30+ million a year to be a CEO is just a waste of a massive amount of money. There are many more people qualified to be CEO's than are serving as CEO's. Somebody else could and would do the job for far less.

183 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:27pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Well... I have to go to work to make some CEO a ton of money... what a jerk I am.

You're not a jerk, Walter...don't say that. You're just a tool.

184 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:28pm

re: #130 imp_62

Inflation is goung to come upon us like a veritable shitstorm once the economy heats up. Money supply is going to be way outside acceptable norms.

No kidding. Right now, velocity is way down. But the economy is well lubricated with computerized systems for effecting transactions. Sooner or later, the fear of running low on money will cease to dominate the thinking of enough people that the velocity picks up. Other fears, e.g. a fear of inflation, will play a role in this.

Already we are seeing the first flurries of this blizzard. Price pressures are subjected to government jawboning. Package sizes are reduced. Commodity prices are soaring. Gold, oil, chocolate, you name it.

The IRS is in a happy situation. They need only leave the alternative minimum tax in place, as is, (for it is not inflation indexed), and shortly, most taxpayers will find themselves swept up in its maw.

185 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:58:34pm

re: #172 sattv4u2

Give me a single example of a large company CEO who has taken on the risk of personal failure (i.e., significant loss of wealth) as a result of a company failing.

186 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:02pm

re: #181 sattv4u2

How amny CEO's do you see offering to work for nothing?

[Link: www.statesman.com...]

That's 1.

Are you calling that a trend?

PS: I could name another one or two, but that would miss the point just as widely as you did.

187 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:16pm

re: #174 garhighway

Do you not understand the term "corporate tax rate", or did you simply choose to give me a nonresponsive answer?

Do you not understand what EBIDTA means, or do you simply want to ride the TAX THE RICH bandwagon!?!?

Most "CEO's' are small businessmen that file ALL their earnings as "income", then take their deductions from there!

188 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:51pm

re: #174 garhighway

Do you not understand the term "corporate tax rate", or did you simply choose to give me a nonresponsive answer?

Don't worry. Corporate tax rates aren't going anywhere. That's just another myth. Even if they did corporate tax rates and even the Bush tax cuts have nothing to do with FICA taxes.

189 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 1:59:57pm

re: #185 iossarian

Give me a single example of a large company CEO who has taken on the risk of personal failure (i.e., significant loss of wealth) as a result of a company failing.

IIRC,a few years ago, a CEO paid himself $1 a year. Plus bonus.

190 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:06pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Well... I have to go to work to make some CEO a ton of money... what a jerk I am.

Don't worry. There'll be pie in the sky when you die.

191 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:07pm

re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote

OK all, I have to roll out for Shabbos. Miss S. is coming over in about 30 minutes and I need to be pretty :)

I hope that everyone has a wonderful weekend. You are all good folks and don't let my periods of nonappearance make you think I am not around.

Your sphericality was never in doubt. Have a good weekend!

192 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:23pm

re: #184 lostlakehiker

No kidding. Right now, velocity is way down. But the economy is well lubricated with computerized systems for effecting transactions. Sooner or later, the fear of running low on money will cease to dominate the thinking of enough people that the velocity picks up. Other fears, e.g. a fear of inflation, will play a role in this.

Already we are seeing the first flurries of this blizzard. Price pressures are subjected to government jawboning. Package sizes are reduced. Commodity prices are soaring. Gold, oil, chocolate, you name it.

The IRS is in a happy situation. They need only leave the alternative minimum tax in place, as is, (for it is not inflation indexed), and shortly, most taxpayers will find themselves swept up in its maw.

Concur in full. Last year was already discussing the issue of velocity. Has not improved - huge cash on the sidelines or sopping up govies.

193 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:26pm

re: #189 Cannadian Club Akbar

IIRC,a few years ago, a CEO paid himself $1 a year. Plus bonus.

I linked one of them

There are more

194 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:39pm

re: #190 Decatur Deb

Don't worry. There'll be pie in the sky when you die.

Not if I get there first!

195 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:47pm

Oh wow. One poor CEO that was only making 200K per year is going to work for 1 dollar.

Problem solved.

/

196 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:00:54pm

re: #186 garhighway

Plus, it's the tired old example of someone who's already loaded saying "sure, I'll work for a dollar a year".

Give me an example of a CEO who would actually lose big time if the stock goes down. There are none.

197 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:01:00pm

I once worked for a guy but didn't pull a salary. Bonus? 1 million.

198 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:01:39pm

re: #197 Cannadian Club Akbar

I once worked for a guy but didn't pull a salary. Bonus? 1 million.

Yes, but the poor bastard was living bonus to bonus...

199 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:01:55pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

And that means what?

I don't know, four days ago you said the stock market was "tanking" because it lost 7/10ths of a percent / 78 Dow points. You cast that in the context of some kind of liberal failure. The Dow is up up 2.3% / 250 points since then, and here you are wondering what it all means.

200 sattv4u2  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:01:58pm

bbiab

brother in laws on the phone with an update on my mother

201 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:02:14pm

re: #195 Gus 802

Oh wow. One poor CEO that was only making 200K per year is going to work for 1 dollar.

Problem solved.

/

Meg Whitman is trying to work for minus 120 million.

202 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:02:33pm

re: #164 lostlakehiker

The people they have any chance of persuading are part of the vast majority who do not themselves have much of a knack for science, or much of an education in it.

If most people's experience is anything like mine, a large portion of this is due to the way that science classes are taught. I know there are some inspired and inspiring teachers out there, but with one or two exceptions, all the science teachers I had seemed to do their dead-level best to make it seem as dry and boring as possible. There were no Phil Plaits or Neil DeGrasse Tysons in any of the schools I went to. Just like with history classes, it was rote memorization of raw data, with no context and no attempt to convey how any of it is at all relevant.

203 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:02:36pm

re: #198 darthstar

Yes, but the poor bastard was living bonus to bonus...

My bonus paid my rent. I blew my salary on booze and broads and baseball cards.

204 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:02:49pm

re: #184 lostlakehiker

...

Already we are seeing the first flurries of this blizzard. Price pressures are subjected to government jawboning. Package sizes are reduced. Commodity prices are soaring. Gold, oil, chocolate, you name it.

....

Silver, cocoa, coffee.

205 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:02:57pm

re: #200 sattv4u2

Luck be upon you.

206 aurelius  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:01pm

why give them 5 million a year? that's still a lot of money.

Fix CEO salaries to no more than president of US (200K?).

they're running something smaller, why should the government allow them to be paid more?

that of the mean re: #182 Fozzie Bear

That's not really an argument that makes any sense. You could just as easily find someone to run the company for a mere 5 million a year who is just as intelligent and capable. It's not like there is some magical CEO gene which makes people super smart. They are just massively overpaid, and that excess compensation could (and I would argue should) be directed wither toward lowering the prices of their products, paying their rank-and-file employees more, and/or paying greater dividends to the actual owners of the company, the stockholders.

Paying a single person 30+ million a year to be a CEO is just a waste of a massive amount of money. There are many more people qualified to be CEO's than are serving as CEO's. Somebody else could and would do the job for far less.

207 iossarian  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:04pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Meg Whitman is trying to work for minus 120 million.

LOL.

And on that note, I'm out! Stay well, people.

208 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:19pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

Meg Whitman is trying to work for minus 120 million.

Yeah. Poor old Meg. Must have been rough you know. I mean, she was only making millions hand over fist but went out of her way to hire an illegal alien she could abuse.

Classic.

209 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:03:33pm

re: #203 Cannadian Club Akbar

My bonus paid my rent. I blew my salary on booze and broads and baseball cards.

"And wasted the rest."

210 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:04:05pm

re: #16 allegro

It's no doubt just a coincidence (wink, wink) but the rise in homeschooled kids just happens to correlate with the current anti-science, anti-intellectual atmosphere of current politics. As a university science prof, the reduced understanding of the most basic science during the past ten years was shocking. One of the biggest reasons I retired early.

Odd. Very odd. In my experience, home-schooled kids do better than average at University. They may not know everything, but it's a very good bet that they can write coherently and can do arithmetic and algebra. That's a starting point.

211 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:04:18pm

re: #187 sattv4u2

Do you not understand what EBIDTA means, or do you simply want to ride the TAX THE RICH bandwagon!?!?

Most "CEO's' are small businessmen that file ALL their earnings as "income", then take their deductions from there!

I understand EBITDA just fine. But you say corporations they are holding their coin because, in part, corporate tax rates might go up. (You referred to "their tax rates" in a discussion about the "banks and corporations".)

I am asking you, again, where do you get that?

212 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:04:27pm

re: #203 Cannadian Club Akbar

My bonus paid my rent. I blew my salary on booze and broads and baseball cards.

One dollar buys a lot more booze, broads, and baseball cards than I thought.

213 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:04:29pm

re: #208 Gus 802

Yeah. Poor old Meg. Must have been rough you know. I mean, she was only making millions hand over fist but went out of her way to hire an illegal alien she could abuse.

Classic.

DO you really think she had a hand in hiring her own household help? Dollars to donuts she has or had a household manager running things.

214 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:04:47pm

Repost of some thoughts on the other thread because they fit here:

And then I really do need to go!

Denying AGW is not just wrong scientifically, but dangerously wrong.

Consider that if the scientific community is correct about AGW, and people like vote against any action, or support the corrupt politicians who are opposed to action, the consequences are mass starvation, flood, drought, spread of disease and economic collapse on a global scale.

Heating up a planet is hard to do. Planets are big and have a lot of thermal inertia.

There are only so many mechanisms that can pull it off. Orbital variations and volcanic activity are two of the biggest.

Right now, as per orbital variations, we should be cooling (yet we are warming at an alarming rate) and there has been no dramatic volcanic activity of the sort, that could do this, in the past 200 years. The Sun has been slightly cooler (but really its overall output is very flat) for the past decade, yet we are warming.

Since it is well established that CO2 is a GHG, and it is easy to directly measure our output of it and concentrations of it in the present atmosphere, we know we are doing it. We are the only viable cause left.

This is a very dangerous truth. ON the road we are on, the consequences of inaction are utterly catastrophic and on a scale that will make the world wars seem a footnote.

It is important to note that nowhere in the definition of science is there any room for democracy, personal preference or being “even handed” with the other side. In a scientific debate, once sufficient data comes in, there is always a winner and a loser.

Amongst professional scientists, these debates generally take two forms. Firstly, “does this really mean what you think it means?” Secondly, “did you really see what you think you saw?” Once those debates are settled, you have clarity. Both debates are closed by more data and/or better analysis. Eventually, the evidence mounts and consensus is reached. An open debate implies that there is, as yet, insufficient data, incomplete analysis or both. The final word always goes to the physical evidence itself. There is no “second place.” This is as it should be. Good scientists do not say that the universe is some way that it isn’t to please anyone, ever.

We know that AGW is real, happening now, getting progressively worse and will ultimately lead to ruin if we do not, as a global society change course.

215 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:05:05pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

well if she has her way (and wins) she'll make sure that when she goes back to the private sector she will make even more and won't have to worry about those pesky taxes.

216 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:05:07pm

re: #209 Decatur Deb

"And wasted the rest."

I worked under the alternate theory of using my salary for mortgage, bills, and 401K. My bonuses went into the "discretionary toy fund" and bought stuff like games, computers, and vacation trips.

217 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:05:58pm

re: #213 imp_62

DO you really think she had a hand in hiring her own household help? Dollars to donuts she has or had a household manager running things.

Well, one would think that a mother, even one like Meg Whitman, would actually take the time to interview the nanny who would be doing most of the child-rearing of her own kids.

218 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:06:20pm

re: #216 oaktree

I worked under the alternate theory of using my salary for mortgage, bills, and 401K. My bonuses went into the "discretionary toy fund" and bought stuff like games, computers, and vacation trips.

I moved 7 times in 2 or 3 years. Couldn't buy a house.

219 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:06:39pm

re: #217 darthstar

Well, one would think that a mother, even one like Meg Whitman, would actually take the time to interview the nanny who would be doing most of the child-rearing of her own kids.

Si.

220 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:08:37pm

re: #217 darthstar

You'd be surprised.

221 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:08:41pm

Anyway. The point isn't only about CEOs. The point is that the cash is there and it's just being horded for whatever reason.

222 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:08:46pm

re: #218 Cannadian Club Akbar

I moved 7 times in 2 or 3 years. Couldn't buy a house.

I bought one, and then took ~2 years to actually sell it once I got transferred. Home ownership compared to renting is another set of trade-offs. You gain some new advantages, but also pick up some new liabilities.

223 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:10:05pm

re: #222 oaktree

I bought one, and then took ~2 years to actually sell it once I got transferred. Home ownership compared to renting is another set of trade-offs. You gain some new advantages, but also pick up some new liabilities.

Once I get rid of the place I am living in now, I will never buy another house. E.V.E.R.
I hate it.

224 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:11:42pm

re: #222 oaktree

I went from my home town to an hour south. Then back to the home town. Then the other coast. Then 2 hours north. Then to Orlando. Then back to the home town. Only 6 moves.

225 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:12:41pm

re: #223 imp_62

Once I get rid of the place I am living in now, I will never buy another house. E.V.E.R.
I hate it.

I bought a series of houses to keep the kids dry, never thought of them as investments. It turned out well because of dumb timing luck.

226 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:13:44pm

re: #224 Cannadian Club Akbar

I went from my home town to an hour south. Then back to the home town. Then the other coast. Then 2 hours north. Then to Orlando. Then back to the home town. Only 6 moves.

OMFGZ! You drew a giant pentacle!

227 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:13:58pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

I bought a series of houses to keep the kids dry, never thought of them as investments. It turned out well because of dumb timing luck.

I have rented 3 homes, owned 2, rented 3 apartments... Apartment rental is by far my favourite alternative. That's happening as soon as the last kid gets her butt out to college.

228 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:14:35pm

re: #225 Decatur Deb

I bought a series of houses to keep the kids dry, never thought of them as investments. It turned out well because of dumb timing luck.

The kids or the houses?
/

229 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:14:45pm

The whole CEO pay thing is a tough nut to crack. The BOD's want to hire the best CEO they can: they owe that to the shareholders. A really good one (Steve Jobs at Apple, Al Mullally at Ford) can really move the pile. Those guys are worth big money. But they are very rare.

And the executive comp game is rigged. The consultants that companies all hire know that their true mission is to justify a program that is rich, and they know that if they don't, word will get around and they will fast be out of clients.

Bonus and option metrics rarely measure true performance, like the performance of the company's stock price or other serious metric (BV/share, for example) versus peers. Instead, they just key off of stock price increase, which means in a bull market everybody gets rich regardless. And they rarely have any sort of clawback provision that would allow a company to reclaim bucks that were paid based on misleading performance.

This is one of things that I would love to see the market fix for itself, but I can't see how that would happen.

230 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:14:51pm

re: #226 darthstar

OMFGZ! You drew a giant pentacle!

CHRISTINE! CHRISTINE! COME LOOK WHAT AKBAR DID!

231 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:15:21pm

re: #228 Cannadian Club Akbar

The kids or the houses?
/

Two houses and three out of four kids.

232 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:15:30pm

re: #226 darthstar

OMFGZ! You drew a giant pentacle!

I am a Mason.
/

233 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:16:26pm

re: #232 Cannadian Club Akbar

I am a Mason.
/

I din't know that masons had giant pentacles. Is that a penis-like tentacle? Or a tentacle-like penis?

234 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:17:36pm

re: #233 imp_62

I din't know that masons had giant pentacles. Is that a penis-like tentacle? Or a tentacle-like penis?

I thought Darth said Pentagram. Stan is gonna kill me. Again. And again. And again.

235 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:17:55pm

Ozzy Osbourne’s music being used against his wishes by an anti-gay church

Rocker Ozzy Osbourne has said he is ‘disgusted’ that an anti-gay church is using his music.

The former Black Sabbath star has released a statement saying he is unhappy that the Westboro Baptist Church used his music to play on the steps of the United States Supreme Court.

He said: “I am sickened and disgusted by the use of Crazy Train to promote messages of hate and evil by a church.”

236 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:17:57pm

re: #224 Cannadian Club Akbar

I went from my home town to an hour south. Then back to the home town. Then the other coast. Then 2 hours north. Then to Orlando. Then back to the home town. Only 6 moves.

I got moved around in my youth since my father was transferred a few times. New Jersey, Indiana, New York, Pennsylvania. And being the youngest child I missed California and the first round of the family living in western Pennsylvania. I was the least mobile of my siblings since I've stayed east of the Mississippi and only lived in Virginia and the two ends of Pennsylvania since 1981.

Siblings and/or parents have lived in Pennsylvania, Oregon, Michigan, Colorado, Texas, New York, and Alberta in that same period. Good excuse for vacation travel though.

237 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:18:01pm

re: #180 Walter L. Newton

Well... I have to go to work to make some CEO a ton of money... what a jerk I am.

Image: 4DB6A0000013E.filename.Miller.jpg

238 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:20:33pm

re: #234 Cannadian Club Akbar

I thought Darth said Pentagram. Stan is gonna kill me. Again. And again. And again.

I meant pentagram...pentacle is a pentagram with a circle around it...my bad...sorry.

239 shutdown  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:21:02pm

Time to go downstairs and see if my wife still hates me. Could be in for a long weekend...

240 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:21:22pm

re: #238 darthstar

I meant pentagram...pentacle is a pentagram with a circle around it...my bad...sorry.

You know too much...

241 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:21:56pm

re: #235 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Ozzy Osbourne’s music being used against his wishes by an anti-gay church

I wonder if he'd be pissed at International Answer using War Pigs.

242 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:22:13pm

re: #238 darthstar

I meant pentagram...pentacle is a pentagram with a circle around it...my bad...sorry.

Real men use the Elder Sign.

243 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:23:23pm

Sheesh.

Gunman dressed in black opens fire at Carlsbad elementary school, injuring two students [updated]

A gunman dressed in black opened fire outside an elementary school in Carlsbad on Friday afternoon, wounding two students before being tackled by construction workers, officials said.

The students received graze wounds and were being treated by doctors, officials said, and a bomb squad was called to examine a propane tank found in the suspect's car.

Shortly before noon, the suspect rolled up to the school in his car, said Lt. Kelly Cain of the Carlsbad Police Department. Armed with a handgun, Cain said, the suspect stepped onto the sidewalk next to the school playground and started firing wildly.

Construction workers nearby witnessed the incident and tackled the gunman, Cain said.

And another...

Cop arrested in 2-state shooting spree

(CNN) -- A police officer arrested Friday in Will County, Illinois, has been charged with one count of first-degree murder in connection with a two-state rural shooting rampage that left one man dead, authorities said.

Brian E. Dorian, 37, an officer with the Lynwood Police Department, will probably face other charges, said Will County State's Attorney James W. Glasgow. In addition to the fatality, three people were wounded in the spree, which occurred south of Chicago.

Authorities would not provide a possible motive at a news conference Friday afternoon.

Dorian's first court hearing is scheduled for Tuesday afternoon.

244 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:24:03pm

Wow. The world-class miss-the-point fire department is still in play downstairs

245 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:26:07pm

re: #243 Gus 802

From the linky:
Shortly before noon, the suspect rolled up to the school in his car, said Lt. Kelly Cain of the Carlsbad Police Department.


uh, yo?

246 darthstar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:26:20pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Sheesh.

Gunman dressed in black opens fire at Carlsbad elementary school, injuring two students [updated]

Great thing about citizens arrest in cases like this...until the cops show up to read the fucker his rights, he doesn't have any. "It's a good thing all his fingers were broken, officer...he could have hurt a lot more people if he shot straight."

247 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:26:52pm

From a historical perspective, anytime you are reading something that includes a conspiracy by the Templars, the Masons, or both, you are about to be handed a big pile of hooey.

It may be interesting hooey with action scenes and high-speed chases and weird glasses invented by Benjamin Franklin, but hooey all the same.

(Full disclosure: My grandfather was a Mason.)

248 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:27:08pm

re: #246 darthstar

Great thing about citizens arrest in cases like this...until the cops show up to read the fucker his rights, he doesn't have any. "It's a good thing all his fingers were broken, officer...he could have hurt a lot more people if he shot straight."

He started hitting himself with my hammer!!

249 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:27:48pm

re: #246 darthstar

Great thing about citizens arrest in cases like this...until the cops show up to read the fucker his rights, he doesn't have any. "It's a good thing all his fingers were broken, officer...he could have hurt a lot more people if he shot straight."

Lift one to the construction workers.

250 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:28:24pm

re: #249 Decatur Deb

Lift one to the construction workers.

My nail gun went off and I couldn't turn it off!

//

251 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:28:51pm

re: #243 Gus 802

Carlsbad is mostly a bedroom community in the north of SD county, with many people commuting to either SD or to Marine base just to the north. Kind of a strange event.

252 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:28:59pm

re: #250 Gus 802

My nail gun went off and I couldn't turn it off!

//

And it reloaded itself!!

253 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:29:41pm

re: #250 Gus 802

My nail gun went off and I couldn't turn it off!

//

Can't trust the safeties on the cheap imported stuff.

254 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:30:41pm

Back on the topic...

This whole "war on science" I now look at as being part of the entire anti-modernism movement, a rejection of life today in hopes/wishes/fantasies for a "simpler" life that is thought to have existed at an earlier time.

255 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:30:51pm

re: #251 freetoken

Carlsbad is mostly a bedroom community in the north of SD county, with many people commuting to either SD or to Marine base just to the north. Kind of a strange event.

Dressed in all black and with a propane tank? Sounds like some nut. Trying to copy Klebold and Harris in a way.

256 kirkspencer  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:32:00pm

I want to point out that when the anti-AGW crowd speaks, one of the most common complaints is that AGW is really about people who want to handicap business.

Yes, there are all the other issues, but go look and you find that little note running as a constant refrain - it hampers the business of the developed worlds.

Thus my cynicism in thinking it's just another case of greed in action.

257 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:33:09pm

re: #252 Cannadian Club Akbar

And it reloaded itself!!

It would be wrong to hurt him, and should be punished. I'm thinking one hour community service with Habitat for every single nail.

258 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:33:42pm

re: #254 freetoken

Back on the topic...

This whole "war on science" I now look at as being part of the entire anti-modernism movement, a rejection of life today in hopes/wishes/fantasies for a "simpler" life that is thought to have existed at an earlier time.

If they were Biblical literalists they could fume that coming out of the trees in the first place was a bad move...
/

259 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:04pm

re: #256 kirkspencer

And Americans hate Kyoto. China and India won't sign it. Neither should we. I'm including Presidents, plural.

260 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:30pm

re: #256 kirkspencer

I want to point out that when the anti-AGW crowd speaks, one of the most common complaints is that AGW is really about people who want to handicap business.

Yes, there are all the other issues, but go look and you find that little note running as a constant refrain - it hampers the business of the developed worlds.

Thus my cynicism in thinking it's just another case of greed in action.

Follow the money.

When you look at who funds the anti-AGW side, it is overwhelmingly the carbon-based energy industry: coal, oil, gas, utilities.

They will screw you, me and the planet in general if they can just have another couple of quarters where they make their numbers.

261 Jack Burton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:33pm

re: #247 EmmmieG

From a historical perspective, anytime you are reading something that includes a conspiracy by the Templars, the Masons, or both, you are about to be handed a big pile of hooey.

It may be interesting hooey with action scenes and high-speed chases and weird glasses invented by Benjamin Franklin, but hooey all the same.

(Full disclosure: My grandfather was a Mason.)

I wish I could find the huge overly complicated chart showing the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory of everything to link to again. It had *everything* on it.

262 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:34:57pm

re: #257 Decatur Deb

It would be wrong to hurt him, and should be punished. I'm thinking one hour community service with Habitat for every single nail.

Or make him work with Jimmy Carter.

263 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:35:05pm

pimf.

If they *weren't* Biblical literalists they could fume that coming out of the trees in the first place was a bad move...

(Gah. I hate screwing the jokes up.)

264 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:36:07pm

re: #261 ArchangelMichael

I wish I could find the huge overly complicated chart showing the Grand Unified Conspiracy Theory of everything to link to again. It had *everything* on it.

Everything? Everything? Where did Charo fit in? White leisure suits? How about lo-cal ranch dressing?

265 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:36:53pm

re: #262 Cannadian Club Akbar

Or make him work with Jimmy Carter.

I tried to volunteer on a Carter Build, but it gets quite expensive. Some irony in that.

266 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:37:07pm

re: #264 EmmmieG

Everything? Everything? Where did Charo fit in? White leisure suits? How about lo-cal ranch dressing?

Please don't say Charo and low fat ranch dressing in the same sentence.

267 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:37:15pm

re: #254 freetoken

Back on the topic...

This whole "war on science" I now look at as being part of the entire anti-modernism movement, a rejection of life today in hopes/wishes/fantasies for a "simpler" life that is thought to have existed at an earlier time.

I think that's exactly what it is. We're seeing the same mentality pop up in various elements of conservative thought. Even in yesterday's thread about about the fire fighters....

In this case, critics of the fire department are confused both about right and wrong and about Christianity. And it is because they have fallen prey to a weakened, feminized version of Christianity that is only about softer virtues such as compassion and not in any part about the muscular Christian virtues of individual responsibility and accountability.

They want to undo modern Christianity too.
The Tea Parties want to undo 150 years of Constitutional law and civil rights legislation.
Beck and Barton want to undo history and replace it with their own version.

Conservatives are really embracing their regressive tendencies.

268 Feline Fearless Leader  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:37:16pm

re: #264 EmmmieG

Everything? Everything? Where did Charo fit in? White leisure suits? How about lo-cal ranch dressing?

Sounds like an episode of Fantasy Island...

269 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:37:57pm

re: #268 oaktree

Sounds like an episode of Fantasy Island...

Charo and regular ranch, maybe...

270 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:38:29pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

I think that's exactly what it is. We're seeing the same mentality pop up in various elements of conservative thought. Even in yesterday's thread about about the fire fighters...


They want to undo modern Christianity too.
The Tea Parties want to undo 150 years of Constitutional law and civil rights legislation.
Beck and Barton want to undo history and replace it with their own version.

Conservatives are really embracing their regressive tendencies.

Modern Christianity? I would be happy with the ancient stuff, you know, the golden rule, and not throwing the first stone, and feeding hungry people.

That works for me.

271 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:38:46pm

BBL. Wife's church steel drum band is partying here tonight.

272 pharmmajor  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:39:41pm

Distributed 50 flyers for the Libertarian candidates here in PA in my neighborhood. Most were hung on doors without contact. Two people accepted the flyers in person, one politely turned it down. No one yelled or pulled a gun on me, so I consider that a good sign.

273 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:40:11pm

re: #271 Decatur Deb

BBL. Wife's church steel drum band is partying here tonight.

Church? Partying? I need a new denomination.

274 garhighway  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:40:34pm

Off to dinner and theater.

Have a good evening, all.

275 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:41:23pm

9 days of vacation have now started. Time to relax.

276 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:42:37pm

I got two weeks of vacation starting tomorrow afternoon, taking kids to Edinburgh on Sunday...

277 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:43:09pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

There's a certain requirement, in modernity, to live with psychological unease, a sort of acceptance of what we've learned over centuries of accumulated knowledge that is working against our evolved need for religion.

Modernity is built on part in accepting what our five senses cannot readily, physically, perceive. Almost all of science these days deals with objects too small or too large for our eyes to see, our noses to smell, etc.

We really are apes, but with just enough gray matter to have used abstract thought to go beyond what our immediate 5 senses tells us.

I propose that this gap - between what we can readily sense with our biological organs and what we have deduced with logic - is at the root of much of the angst we are seeing in our society around us.

278 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:44:12pm

re: #273 Cannadian Club Akbar

Church? Partying? I need a new denomination.

Organist and his wife are island freaks. She's bringing the margarita maker.

279 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:44:15pm

re: #270 EmmmieG

Modern Christianity? I would be happy with the ancient stuff, you know, the golden rule, and not throwing the first stone, and feeding hungry people.

That works for me.


I read a work on how a literalist interpretation of the bible was never part of ancient Christianity, they understood that the Bible was allegorical and not to be used as a scienced text or a manual on firefighting practices.

280 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:44:22pm

re: #259 Cannadian Club Akbar

China and India won't sign it. Neither should we.

Yes, we should emulate those nations in particular. Following Chinese and Indian environmental standards is following Saudi Arabia's lead on religious tolerance. Sure, it makes a good soundbite, and while people did actually use that logic to oppose park51, the logic is somewhat lacking.

281 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:45:19pm

Afternoon, everyone.

I've been looking into my family tree at ancestry.com. Really easy to use site; you have access to research already done by other folks. You have to look at it to see how accurate and applicable it is to your own situation, but it's been a fun couple of days.

Right now I'm looking for Ojoe. I found "James Clark" in my family tree (my 3rd great-grandfather on my Dad's side of the family). He was either the 12th or 13th governor of Ky.

And lookie here:

In 1825, Clark was chosen to fill the congressional seat vacated by Henry Clay's elevation to Secretary of State. He served until 1831, but did not stand for re-election that year. He became active in organizing the Whig Party in Kentucky, and was rewarded for his efforts by being chosen as the party's nominee for governor in 1836. He won the election and laid out an ambitious platform to the legislature, which acted on only part of it. Clark's most significant accomplishment as governor was securing the creation of a state board of education and the establishment of public schools in every county in the state. Clark died in office in 1839. His estate, Holly Rood, is listed on the National Register of Historic Places.

I've got a Whig in the family!

282 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:45:40pm

re: #279 ralphieboy

I read a work on how a literalist interpretation of the bible was never part of ancient Christianity, they understood that the Bible was allegorical and not to be used as a scienced text or a manual on firefighting practices.

Sounds interesting, although I will have to hear about it when I get back from transfering Son 1 from Place A to Place B, neither of which are this house.

283 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:45:59pm

re: #259 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Americans hate Kyoto.

I always found it to be a rather cold city, sort of too much into whatever it is, compared to say Osaka or Nara or Kobe.

284 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:46:21pm

re: #281 reine.de.tout

Afternoon, everyone.

I've been looking into my family tree at ancestry.com. Really easy to use site; you have access to research already done by other folks. You have to look at it to see how accurate and applicable it is to your own situation, but it's been a fun couple of days.

Right now I'm looking for Ojoe. I found "James Clark" in my family tree (my 3rd great-grandfather on my Dad's side of the family). He was either the 12th or 13th governor of Ky.

And lookie here:

I've got a Whig in the family!

They could make you their queen!

285 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:47:18pm

re: #282 EmmmieG

Sounds interesting, although I will have to hear about it when I get back from transfering Son 1 from Place A to Place B, neither of which are this house.


"Rescuing the Bible from Fundamentalism" Shelby Spong

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

286 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:47:21pm

re: #280 goddamnedfrank

Thanks for the half quote.

287 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:47:23pm

BBL For Real.

288 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:47:56pm

re: #283 freetoken

I always found it to be a rather cold city, sort of too much into whatever it is, compared to say Osaka or Nara or Kobe.

Spent my free time in Tokyo whenever I could.

289 Gus  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:48:21pm

Nap time. Later.

290 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:48:22pm

re: #254 freetoken

Back on the topic...

This whole "war on science" I now look at as being part of the entire anti-modernism movement, a rejection of life today in hopes/wishes/fantasies for a "simpler" life that is thought to have existed at an earlier time.

Always forward I look.

291 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:48:41pm

re: #284 Decatur Deb

They could make you their queen!

Oh, heck yeah!

292 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:48:58pm

re: #275 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

9 days of vacation have now started. Time to relax.

With 20 hour work weeks, I'm always on vacation!
:P

293 lawhawk  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:49:41pm

re: #211 garhighway

Corporate rates aren't going to go up. However, after 12/31/2010, those businesses that operate as pass-throughs and whose members, shareholders, partners are taxed on income in personal income tax will see a tax hike as a result of the expiring EGTRRA and JGTRRA unless Congress acts.

Throw in other expiring tax benefits and credits, and the net effect is a potentially substantial tax hike on businesses.

294 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:50:08pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

With 20 hour work weeks, I'm always on vacation!
:P

SILENCE!

295 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:50:19pm

re: #291 reine.de.tout

Oh, heck yeah!

You are destined to marry Ojoe. Don't tell Rio.

296 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:50:33pm

re: #294 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

SILENCE!

MUAHAHAHA!

297 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:50:56pm

re: #288 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Spent my free time in Tokyo whenever I could.

I always felt a bit nervous in that place - not out of fear of crime, but sort of like a rat stuck in a really, really big maze.

298 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:51:12pm

re: #295 Cannadian Club Akbar

You are destined to marry Ojoe. Don't tell Rio.

Roi, pimf. Geez.

299 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:53:55pm

re: #297 freetoken

I always felt a bit nervous in that place - not out of fear of crime, but sort of like a rat stuck in a really, really big maze.

It could be hard, but I've got a good sense of direction and could always retrace my steps.

300 Varek Raith  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:55:07pm

re: #299 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It could be hard, but I've got a good sense of direction and could always retrace my steps.

Then why couldn't you ever get to Pismo Beach?!?!
/

301 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 2:56:53pm

Back to the whole Kyoto Accord, and AGW...

The US rejected the treaty, so we don't participate in any further negotiations on it.

Rather, we are negotiating in the other "track" at the UNFCCC meetings, the so called "LCA".

The meeting this week in Tianjin was exactly what you'd expect from a gather of 170 nations all trying to have their say - gridlock.

Today is the last day of negotiation before Cancun, which on Nov 29 is supposed to be the final round for negotiating new treaties/treaty. It is unlikely to be a success, and the US delegation has been saying that for some time. As such, the US delegation has come under some attack in Tianjin. However, as one detractor (of the US position) admitted in public, many other nations are hiding behind the US position.

The international community has failed to come to some workable means to address AGW.

Failed.

It is unlikely that we will see a reversal of this any time soon. Perhaps never.

I am convinced that too much is at stake for too many people, on the one hand, and on the other hand old, hardened, international relationships on many other issues, are conspiring to make any progress futile.

302 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:09:18pm

Music break:

Youtube Video
303 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:09:35pm

The guy who shot up the school in Carlsbad was making threats against the President.

"I think the guy was deranged. He was saying something about the president. He was not coherent. He was crazy."

304 Winny Spencer  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:11:05pm

Unbelievable darts match currently taking place in Dublin.

305 Romantic Heretic  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:11:41pm

re: #162 Gus 802

Sounds like extortion. But it's really a form of social extortion. You don't need to pay someone 30 million dollars a year to save 45 million. No dice. I don't buy the bullshit that you can only attract the "best and the brightest" by paying them extraordinary compensation.

In my mind, the ridiculous sums the CEOs are paid has to do with the essentially delusional nature of modern management. Specifically they are deluded about two things.

The first delusion is that they are capitalists. Which they are not. They're employees. Executive employees, but employees none the less.

The second delusion is that capitalists are always rich. Another untruth. Most companies fail and most capitalists are happy to make a living.

As long as these people remain delusional though they will continue to pay themselves huge amounts of money to the detriment of their companies and the economy.

306 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:11:54pm

re: #304 Winny Spencer

Unbelievable darts match currently taking place in Dublin.

Is it topless?

307 Winny Spencer  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:12:43pm

re: #306 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Luckily not.

308 reine.de.tout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:13:08pm

re: #302 Ojoe

Music break:


[Video]

Ojoe - see this:

re: #281 reine.de.tout

309 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:14:19pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

Conservatives are really embracing their regressive tendencies.

Really Christianity is very radical.

310 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:15:30pm

re: #308 reine.de.tout

COOL ! ! !

Way too much fun !

311 goddamnedfrank  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:18:59pm

re: #305 Romantic Heretic

In my mind, the ridiculous sums the CEOs are paid has to do with the essentially delusional nature of modern management. Specifically they are deluded about two things.

The first delusion is that they are capitalists. Which they are not. They're employees. Executive employees, but employees none the less.

The second delusion is that capitalists are always rich. Another untruth. Most companies fail and most capitalists are happy to make a living.

As long as these people remain delusional though they will continue to pay themselves huge amounts of money to the detriment of their companies and the economy.

Yet another aspect of the Dunning Kruger Effect. The incompetent tend to self rate their skill level much higher than people who actually know what they're doing, and therefore also believe they should get paid according to that erroneous self assessment. Like you said this translates to all kinds of grandiose delusions.

312 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:20:12pm

re: #301 freetoken

The US is a developed country.
China and India are not. (I mean India has monkeys in the streets)
Other nations will not because they lack the money to innovate. And no one will buy anything considering the global economy right now.

I think this brings us to the IMF, which loans money. Then nations become puppets to the gubments that will help them the most, repaying loans. We need real understanding. Help, without strings to help developing nations. And we don't need what isn't working. This is both an economic and military issue. Just my .02.

(Sorry for the late post. Was loading carpet. Ugly shit, too.)

313 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:23:43pm

re: #202 negativ

If most people's experience is anything like mine, a large portion of this is due to the way that science classes are taught. I know there are some inspired and inspiring teachers out there, but with one or two exceptions, all the science teachers I had seemed to do their dead-level best to make it seem as dry and boring as possible. There were no Phil Plaits or Neil DeGrasse Tysons in any of the schools I went to. Just like with history classes, it was rote memorization of raw data, with no context and no attempt to convey how any of it is at all relevant.

Because if the teacher sets questions to which the answers were presented in class, with instructions to memorize, then the blame can rest with the student. But if any sort of reasoning whatsoever is needed to connect the question on the exam to the material presented, then the question is tricky and the teacher is at fault.

Standardized tests lean heavily on facts, to the exclusion of even the most basic of theoretical reasoning. Schools that "waste time" on reasoning thus risk being taken to task.

A good standardized test will bring reasoning into the equation. But good standardized tests run afoul of various political imperatives. So the whole system, top to bottom, gets mired in purely factual detail-chasing and detail-hammering.

Example: What if you just taught evolution, and didn't insist that the students memorize how many fingers a monkey has? Or how many digits in a cat's paw? Or fin-bones in a fish? The answer is the same, again and again, and there's a reason.

Or what if you didn't teach specifically how to find the new trajectory, in free space far from any gravitational effects, of the lump of clay that results when two lumps of given mass and velocity collide and stick together? The answer is, after all, an immediate consequence of conservation of momentum.

314 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:25:13pm

New user here! Here is my opinion, the Republican party and tea party movement are really a front. They are nothing but a mafia like my namesake. I wish Obama had investigated the so called conservative movement and used RICO laws against them.

315 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:26:53pm

re: #312 Cannadian Club Akbar

Many of the nations at the conference are very wary of "loans", which is one of the mechanisms the UMBRELLA group (of which the US is a part, along with Canada, Australia, Russia, Japan, and such) have proposed, through the World Bank.

The least developed countries see this as just a way of perpetuating poverty, since loans with interest need to be repaid.

Too much of the lesser developed world is already in debt and at the mercy of the big players.

We have AGW as a problem because we mine the stored sunshine of the past 400 million years (or so.) The carbon-carbon and carbon-hydrogen bonds we are extracting from the planet's sedimentary deposits are the real gold mine of civilization - almost free energy. Without this energy source modernity probably would not have developed.

Thus, to ignore such a great wealth, so it would appear if one does not take into cost the long term problems, goes against human nature.

Loan mechanisms hardly touch this great quandary.

316 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:26:56pm

re: #314 Gaetano Lucchese

New user here! Here is my opinion, the Republican party and tea party movement are really a front. They are nothing but a mafia like my namesake. I wish Obama had investigated the so called conservative movement and used RICO laws against them.

I'm a conservative. A Republican by party but not a TPer. What will I get sentenced to?

317 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:28:03pm

re: #259 Cannadian Club Akbar

And Americans hate Kyoto. China and India won't sign it. Neither should we. I'm including Presidents, plural.

China won't sign Kyoto, but partly they won't sign because we won't. China is in a situation where it really has to help address AGW. They're more squarely in front of the gun than we are. If we sign on conditional on India and China signing on, China will sign on likewise.

India, too, is more under the gun than we are. Whether they understand as well as China can be argued, but they'll figure it out before too long. The amazing and stunning flooding disaster in Pakistan is, at any rate, instructive.

318 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:29:47pm

re: #316 Cannadian Club Akbar

The criminal regime of Bush and his cronies destroyed this country. It's time that gang of thugs face justice for destroying America.

319 freetoken  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:30:14pm

re: #318 Gaetano Lucchese

If life were only so simple...

320 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:30:27pm

re: #318 Gaetano Lucchese

The criminal regime of Bush and his cronies destroyed this country. It's time that gang of thugs face justice for destroying America.

Especially since 2006!!! Booga!!

321 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:31:16pm

re: #315 freetoken

Until the conservative criminal syndicate is broken, we will never be able to address global warming. Their lies are preventing this government from doing what is needed to address this issue.

322 jamesfirecat  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:32:02pm

re: #314 Gaetano Lucchese

New user here! Here is my opinion, the Republican party and tea party movement are really a front. They are nothing but a mafia like my namesake. I wish Obama had investigated the so called conservative movement and used RICO laws against them.

I'd normally say welcome hatchling, but at the moment all I feel much more interested in asking, did anybody else's "reverse Moby" radar just pick up a new blip?

323 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:32:23pm

Looks like it's gonna be one of those days.

324 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:32:37pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

DF, paging DF.

325 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:32:49pm

re: #314 Gaetano Lucchese

New user here! Here is my opinion, the Republican party and tea party movement are really a front. They are nothing but a mafia like my namesake. I wish Obama had investigated the so called conservative movement and used RICO laws against them.

Benvenuto. Lucca e molta bella.

326 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:32:51pm

re: #321 Gaetano Lucchese

Until the conservative criminal syndicate is broken, we will never be able to address global warming. Their lies are preventing this government from doing what is needed to address this issue.

This really might not be the right forum for you.

Really.

327 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:33:29pm

re: #324 Cannadian Club Akbar

DF, paging DF.

And the Green Egg!!

328 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:33:46pm

re: #325 Decatur Deb

Thank you!

329 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:34:47pm

re: #328 Gaetano Lucchese

Thank you!

I gave you an upding but took it back.

330 Jack Burton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:35:12pm

re: #322 jamesfirecat

I'd normally say welcome hatchling, but at the moment all I feel much more interested in asking, did anybody else's "reverse Moby" radar just pick up a new blip?

Well a Moby is a Moby, but yes my Moby-sonar operator just yelled "Contact, bearing 314, designate contact Sierra 1."

331 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:35:57pm

re: #326 researchok

This really might not be the right forum for you.

Really.

This blog has done great work in exposing the conservative crime syndicate. I have nothing but respect the work Charles has done in exposing these thugs. It's a shame his work doesn't get more exposure. Rachael Maddow also does great work. Their time is limited and justice will be served.

332 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:36:25pm

Crap, I have to go to the store soon. Just when it's getting fun.

333 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:37:24pm

re: #331 Gaetano Lucchese

Okey Dokey. Crime syndicate. I'm gonna name my next band that.

334 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:37:38pm

re: #331 Gaetano Lucchese

This blog has done great work in exposing the conservative crime syndicate. I have nothing but respect the work Charles has done in exposing these thugs. It's a shame his work doesn't get more exposure. Rachael Maddow also does great work. Their time is limited and justice will be served.

That's nice. You are an idiot.

CJ and LGF are about realities, not about agendas.

Deal with it.

335 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:37:53pm

re: #323 Charles

Keep up the good work and ignore the haters. You have their number and please never be intimidated by the conservative criminals.

336 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:37:59pm

re: #331 Gaetano Lucchese

This blog has done great work in exposing the conservative crime syndicate. I have nothing but respect the work Charles has done in exposing these thugs. It's a shame his work doesn't get more exposure. Rachael Maddow also does great work. Their time is limited and justice will be served.

It is hard to take anything you say seriously when you refer to conservatives writ large as a crime syndicate.

Obvious troll is obvious.

337 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:38:04pm

Aye carumba.

338 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:38:32pm

re: #332 Cannadian Club Akbar

Crap, I have to go to the store soon. Just when it's getting fun.

Join Costco.

Fewer trips and you save money.

339 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:39:16pm

re: #334 researchok

The reality is conservatives have destroyed America by promoting trickle down voodoo economics. Obama is trying his best, but he's under constant pressure. He's a hero and I support him 100%!

340 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:39:27pm

re: #338 researchok

Join Costco.

Fewer trips and you save money.

I only need smokes and booze. Maybe not that much. This is gonna be easy.

341 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:40:30pm

re: #339 Gaetano Lucchese

The reality is conservatives have destroyed America by promoting trickle down voodoo economics. Obama is trying his best, but he's under constant pressure. He's a hero and I support him 100%!

You do know we have 3 branches of gubment, right? President Obama isn't a King.

342 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:40:36pm

How long before an overenthusiastic someone accuses someone else of being a pussy for not standing up for the cause?

343 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:40:51pm

re: #336 rwdflynavy

Care to discuss how Bush destroyed the economy?

344 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:41:07pm

re: #340 Cannadian Club Akbar

I only need smokes and booze. Maybe not that much. This is gonna be easy.

I quit smoking cold turkey a few years back. Best thing I ever did.

That said, every now and then I do crave a Marlboro,,,

345 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:41:08pm

re: #343 Gaetano Lucchese

Care to discuss how Bush destroyed the economy?

You first.

346 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:41:23pm

re: #343 Gaetano Lucchese

Care to discuss how Bush destroyed the economy?

Make a point!!!

347 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:41:44pm

re: #342 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How long before an overenthusiastic someone accuses someone else of being a pussy for not standing up for the cause?

15 mins, tops.

348 Killgore Trout  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:42:12pm

From Today's Tea Party convention in Virginia....
Birch Society propaganda

Rebel Flags "Dixie Forever" ironically place next the Abe Lincoln quotations.

Bloggers Row

349 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:42:40pm

re: #345 rwdflynavy

re: #346 Cannadian Club Akbar

Heh.

350 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:42:41pm

re: #345 rwdflynavy

You first.

You are a bad person.

OK by me,

351 Gaetano Lucchese  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:42:43pm

I have to run out now and have dinner with my wife.

Charles thanks for this blog and keep up the great work exposing these criminals and racists. America has always triumph against intolerance and we will again!

Chat with you all later!

352 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:42:46pm

re: #347 researchok

15 mins, tops.

Eh, I'll go high and say by 4:00 pm

353 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:43:18pm

re: #351 Gaetano Lucchese

I have to run out now and have dinner with my wife.

Charles thanks for this blog and keep up the great work exposing these criminals and racists. America has always triumph against intolerance and we will again!

Chat with you all later!

Great argument. I'm convinced.
//

354 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:43:53pm

re: #351 Gaetano Lucchese

I have to run out now and have dinner with my wife.

Charles thanks for this blog and keep up the great work exposing these criminals and racists. America has always triumph against intolerance and we will again!

Chat with you all later!

Cool. Now I can go get booze and smokes. Chicken no-having-a-fact shit. THANKS!!!

355 Charles Johnson  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44:22pm

Obvious troll is obvious, and I don't feel like waiting for it to become any more annoying.

356 Kragar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44:34pm

Wasn't expecting the dodge. Call it a draw, research?

357 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:44:49pm

re: #355 Charles

Obvious troll is obvious, and I don't feel like waiting for it to become any more annoying.

Tanks!!

358 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:45:07pm

Yup.

Next pint is on me.

359 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:45:20pm

Sometimes this is better than actually playing sports.

360 sliv_the_eli  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:45:35pm

re: #317 lostlakehiker

Just out of curiosity, what if they sign on and then do not comply? Iran, after all, is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and has been found by the UN to have violated their treaty obligations on multiple occasions, without any real consequence whatsoever. So, who is going to enforce compliance by China? The UN? American voters? I don't buy that China and India aren't signing because we aren't. IMHO, they aren't signing because they do not view it in their strategic interest to sign. But they pretend that they are waiting for the U.S. to sign because then the useful idiots in the West will act as de facto lobbyists for China by pressuring our own governments to make greater concessions than they might otherwise have to make while China, India, etc., can make fewer consessions.

361 researchok  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:45:56pm

I heard he beat Spassky.

//

362 Decatur Deb  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:47:24pm

re: #355 Charles

Rats. I really wanted to learn about the Lega Nord.

363 Cannadian Club Akbar  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:48:35pm

I'm gonna run to the Bush Alcohol Crime Syndicate. Then to the Obama Smokes Crime Syndicate. I'll be back. (and you ain't getting one sarc tag out of me. Sometimes jokes just write themselves) bbiab

364 Jack Burton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:51:01pm

re: #355 Charles

Obvious troll is obvious, and I don't feel like waiting for it to become any more annoying.

"Five miles, Angels 4, target verified, splash inbound... 3, 2, 1... splash. Impact confirmed, Merry Christmas Bravo 2."

365 Shiplord Kirel  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 3:59:57pm

Republicans are orcs, only dumber! Bush is the anti-Christ! Darth Cheney is Satan! Worse than Hitler or Stalin or Jimmy Carter! He would have canceled the '08 election and revived slavery if, if.......

Er, how did we stop him anyway?
///

366 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:03:24pm

re: #365 Shiplord Kirel

Republicans are orcs, only dumber! Bush is the anti-Christ! Darth Cheney is Satan! Worse than Hitler or Stalin or Jimmy Carter! He would have canceled the '08 election and revived slavery if, if...

Er, how did we stop him anyway?
///

He's forgetful. Election day he was cursing and fuming..."Goddamnit, I knew there was something I forgot to do! Stupid Blackberry lost my list! SHIT! Shrub was supposed to rule forever! We almost had it!"

367 Jack Burton  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:08:34pm

re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist

He's forgetful. Election day he was cursing and fuming..."Goddamnit, I knew there was something I forgot to do! Stupid Blackberry lost my list! SHIT! Shrub was supposed to rule forever! We almost had it!"

Ahh yes Chimperor Chimpy McBushitler... He forgot to put the draft back in place and legalize rape in 2005. Then he forgot to use Directive 51 (cue Star Wars Imperial March music) to suspend the elections and stay in power forever.

368 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:13:09pm

re: #367 ArchangelMichael

Ahh yes Chimperor Chimpy McBushitler... He forgot to put the draft back in place and legalize rape in 2005. Then he forgot to use Directive 51 (cue Star Wars Imperial March music) to suspend the elections and stay in power forever.

Generally, a big shlub. Just like Clinton before him. What the heck is it with these guys, just letting a peaceful transfer of power take place without even TRYING to stop it?

369 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:14:45pm

re: #368 SanFranciscoZionist

Generally, a big shlub. Just like Clinton before him. What the heck is it with these guys, just letting a peaceful transfer of power take place without even TRYING to stop it?

You can blame John Adams for that particular piece of bad American policy.

He started it. 1801.

370 SanFranciscoZionist  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:16:01pm

re: #369 EmmmieG

You can blame John Adams for that particular piece of bad American policy.

He started it. 1801.

What a schmuck! And then, of course, Jefferson ruined the country.

371 Obdicut  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:19:16pm

re: #293 lawhawk


Throw in other expiring tax benefits and credits, and the net effect is a potentially substantial tax hike on businesses.

No. A tax hike on personal income from a business is not a tax on business, now matter how you try to spin it.

And I am an S-class corporation owner.

372 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:19:55pm

re: #368 SanFranciscoZionist

Generally, a big shlub. Just like Clinton before him. What the heck is it with these guys, just letting a peaceful transfer of power take place without even TRYING to stop it?

What is it with these morons loving the constitution more than remaining in power!?
//

373 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:20:35pm

re: #370 SanFranciscoZionist

What a schmuck! And then, of course, Jefferson ruined the country.

Big payout to his buddies the socialist pansy Frenchies for a little port city and some wilderness.

374 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:22:13pm

re: #279 ralphieboy

I read a work on how a literalist interpretation of the bible was never part of ancient Christianity, they understood that the Bible was allegorical and not to be used as a scienced text or a manual on firefighting practices.

Ancient Christianity was a practical thing that made the lives of many people a lot better. That is why it spread so. It solved real problems in the real world.

375 Ojoe  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:24:36pm

re: #339 Gaetano Lucchese

I know you are blocked sir, but my assessment of Obama at this point is that he is a political klutz.

376 Dancing along the light of day  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 4:44:07pm

re: #281 reine.de.tout

My sister has had a great time on that site!
She's gotten relatives back to the Mayflower.
It's funny how the spelling of their names evolved!
*waves

377 lostlakehiker  Fri, Oct 8, 2010 5:05:53pm

re: #249 Decatur Deb

Lift one to the construction workers.

This is courage. Taking on a man with a gun, armed with nothing but tools serving as ad-hoc weapons?

But that's also how it will have to be if we are treated to a Mumbai-style attack. The authorities will come as fast as they can. But it will never be fast enough. An active shooter can do a lot of harm in a couple of minutes. A lucky hero or two can avert a massacre. With bad luck, he still earns the gratitude of a nation, and throws sand in the gears of what may have been planned in meticulous detail. Every little incident that derails that plan cuts into the chances that it can be brought off more or less to design.

And in other news, a mother steps up and pays the price. Fire, window, here, catch. Life can put you on the spot. Well done.

378 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:47:31am

re: #7 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

If anything bad happens, it was God's plan after all.

Pain, suffering, and death are bad enough, but then someone says sh** like that. A few years ago, during a time when I'd attended too many funerals in too short a time, I heard the phrase "part of God's plan" once too often and told the well-meaning but stupid person who said it, "Then your God is one sadistic f***", and walked away.

379 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 1:50:52am

re: #17 darthstar

Does anyone in GOP leadership actually have a college education? Because they sure as hell don't act like it.

Boehner went to my college at the same time I attended. What's worse is that the one other member of Congress from my alma mater is Bunning, although he was there before I was born.

380 ClaudeMonet  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 2:25:41am

re: #173 Gus 802

Image: vaseline.jpg

I've always wondered about the phrase "Pure Petroleum Jelly". As opposed to what? Impure petroleum jelly?

re: #246 darthstar

Great thing about citizens arrest in cases like this...until the cops show up to read the fucker his rights, he doesn't have any. "It's a good thing all his fingers were broken, officer...he could have hurt a lot more people if he shot straight."

Street justice is often more effective than court justice, both in terms of punishment and deterrence. The problem is how variable it is in administration.

re: #264 EmmmieG

Everything? Everything? Where did Charo fit in? White leisure suits? How about lo-cal ranch dressing?

The Vega, Pinto, and Corvair? The Donny and Marie Show? Supertrain? Gigli and Ishtar?

381 lostlakehiker  Sat, Oct 9, 2010 7:45:00pm

re: #360 sliv_the_eli

Just out of curiosity, what if they sign on and then do not comply? Iran, after all, is a signatory to the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty and has been found by the UN to have violated their treaty obligations on multiple occasions, without any real consequence whatsoever. So, who is going to enforce compliance by China? The UN? American voters? I don't buy that China and India aren't signing because we aren't. IMHO, they aren't signing because they do not view it in their strategic interest to sign. But they pretend that they are waiting for the U.S. to sign because then the useful idiots in the West will act as de facto lobbyists for China by pressuring our own governments to make greater concessions than they might otherwise have to make while China, India, etc., can make fewer consessions.

Well, here's how it looks to me: China, India, and the U.S. all stand to lose if AGW runs to completion, with coal fired plants going full tilt for another century. We each stand to lose more from the consequences of that than it would have cost any one of us to pay the difference for the whole world to convert to wind/solar/nuclear etc.

China, particularly, is under the gun. She has more coastal terrain that could be lost to rising sea levels, more land at great risk of flooding, more people on that land. And that's not the half of it.

It is not just in China's interest that this trend be at least bent, if not wholly put in check. It is in China's vital interest. I don't look for the Chinese to tend to somebody else's interests.

Suppose they sign, we sign, everybody signs, and everybody else plays by the rules but they cheat not just at the margins but whole hog. What happens? China is big enough that her own contribution to AGW, if everybody else stops using fossil fuels, is sufficient to drive AGW to a point that will be a disaster for China. (And many others.) She cannot afford to do that.

But China also faces the fact that if she does all she can on her own, India, the U.S., and Europe can drive that change, and then we all suffer anyhow.

China has every incentive of self interest to sign and abide by it, if that will get the others to do so as well. Belgium can sign and cheat, and it won't matter to Belgium unless she gets punished. Nature herself will punish any major cheater, except perhaps Russia which has some terrain that would benefit from higher temperatures. But that's just looking at the question through a straw. If things get bad enough in China, where will Chinese refugees go? Siberia. And what will Russia do about that? And how much will it cost, and how dangerous might it get?

Global disruptions disrupt globally. No one can afford the consequences to themselves of letting this happen, just to wring some short term benefit from getting electricity at a 35% discount from wind/solar/nuclear. If that much.


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