Video: Romney Insists He Was Right About Allowing the Auto Industry to Go Bankrupt

No failed idea is too ludicrous to try again
Politics • Views: 26,925

Here’s another moment from last night’s debate that actually made me laugh out loud; Mitt Romney refusing to back down from his absurd claim that the hugely successful auto industry bailout program was a “failure.”

There’s no failed idea so ridiculous that Republicans won’t try it again. In 2008, Romney penned an op-ed for the New York Times claiming that the bailout would mean the end of America’s auto industry.

IF General Motors, Ford and Chrysler get the bailout that their chief executives asked for yesterday, you can kiss the American automotive industry goodbye.

He couldn’t possibly have been more wrong; to date, General Motors and Chrysler have repaid about half of the bailout money, and are on track to repaying the rest of it. And nobody is “kissing them goodbye.”

If conservatives like Romney had gotten their way and these huge companies had been allowed to go into bankruptcy at the time, the effects on the American economy would have been absolutely disastrous. Millions of people suddenly unemployed, and factories closed forever; in short, it was Romney’s idiotic idea that would have destroyed the auto industry.

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433 comments
1 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:27:53am

Well, Romney is an expert on wrecking auto companies--can't beat hands-on experience.

2 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:29:47am

Thing is, he can't really back down. At least he can't and expect to win the nomination. It's become an article of faith that the Auto Bailout was a huge mistake, one that put us "further on the path to socialism," and that it's not "Government Motors." Any candidate who even acknowledges that the bailout saved jobs is DOA.

3 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:30:06am

It would at least have been consistent with a full-on Free market ideology.

4 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:30:50am

Here in Michigan we would have been devastated had Romney been making policy. Thank god he wasn't. Even the Republicans think so.

5 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:31:34am

Were there any positive sound-bytes from last night's debate that the Seven Succubi could take away with them? (okay...only one was female, but I kind of like Samurai).

6 nines09  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:31:40am

A Republican wrong? Never.

7 jaunte  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:31:56am

Romney the honey badger.

"For a guy whose father basically ran Michigan to not know the importance of the industry, and to come here and ask for money, I just don't understand," said Larry Ring, 52, a Ford electrician from Wayne County's Canton Township.

For the moment, such attitudes may not matter to Romney in terms of the GOP nomination. If he ever makes to a faceoff with Obama, it could spell trouble.[Link: content.usatoday.com...]

8 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:32:59am

I don't see how Romney doesn't get the nomination so this will matter in the general.

9 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:33:03am

re: #5 darthstar

Were there any positive sound-bytes from last night's debate that the Seven Succubi could take away with them? (okay...only one was female, but I kind of like Samurai).

There are 7 deadly sins.

10 jamesfirecat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:33:48am

Figures that it's only his bad idea that Romney refuses to flip flop on...

11 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:33:58am

re: #8 recusancy

I don't see how Romney doesn't get the nomination so this will matter in the general.

Agreed, there's nothing I saw last night that really did anything to make Romney's nomination seem less than a done deal.

12 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:34:02am

Did he say anything about how bad Obama handled the auto bailout but that the auto bailout worked because Obama adopted Romney's "plan"? that was the spin last month.

13 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:34:45am

re: #8 recusancy

I don't see how Romney doesn't get the nomination so this will matter in the general.

I couldn't see how McCain chose Palin over Romney as a VP pick. Romney is not a sure thing for the nomination given the general insanity in the GOP right now.

14 Interesting Times  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:35:36am

re: #8 recusancy

I don't see how Romney doesn't get the nomination so this will matter in the general.

Romney is the "Trojan Horse" candidate - designed to reassure moderates and independents the GOP isn't really so bad, when in reality, he'll be beholden to the same debased base and obligated to enact their agenda (e.g. Ryan budget. Also see the actions of GOP govs like Walker, Scott, etc and imagine that on a national scale).

15 Shiplord Kirel  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:35:47am

Voodoo economics, to go with the GOP's superstition sociology and magical foreign policy.

16 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:36:55am
Mitt Romney refusing to back down from his aburd claim that the hugely successful auto industry bailout program was a “failure.”

Another gotcha question. Where's Faux news when you need them?

17 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:38:09am

GM and Chrysler have repaid their government loans IN FULL

18 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:38:18am

Were there any "birther" questions asked in this debate? I suppose that insanity has been finally, maybe, delt with.

19 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:39:28am

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There are 7 deadly sins.

Good point...but do they all fit?
Pride - Romney (oh you know it!)
Gluttony - Paul (he's a glutton for punishment)
Envy - Pawlenty (fucker's slow as they come)
Greed - Gingrich (it's all about selling books and movies)
Lust - Bachmann (because you know she's a wild one in private - 27,000 kids!)
Wrath - Cain (bitter, bitter man)
Sloth- Santorum (everyone else, including Pawlenty, is getting taken seriously)

20 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:39:46am

Ugh. It's sad seeing the climate change denialism in the tech community: [Link: news.ycombinator.com...]

21 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:41:08am

re: #19 darthstar

Good point...but do they all fit?
Pride - Romney (oh you know it!)
Gluttony - Paul (he's a glutton for punishment)
Envy - Pawlenty (fucker's slow as they come)
Greed - Gingrich (it's all about selling books and movies)
Lust - Bachmann (because you know she's a wild one in private - 27,000 kids!)
Wrath - Cain (bitter, bitter man)
Sloth- Santorum (everyone else, including Pawlenty, is getting taken seriously)

7 Dwarves

Doc--Ron Paul....
Dopey--

22 Schadenfreude 'r' Us  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:42:04am

re: #21 Decatur Deb

Apologize to the dwarves. Now.

23 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:43:18am

re: #20 recusancy

Ugh. It's sad seeing the climate change denialism in the tech community: [Link: news.ycombinator.com...]

Everyone pay attention. This is probably going to be a huge deal in the denial community.

24 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:44:15am

re: #21 Decatur Deb

7 Dwarves

Doc--Ron Paul...
Dopey--

Doc - Paul
Dopey - Pawlenty
Sleepy - Romney
Grumpy - Cain
Happy - Santorum - he's on stage!
Bashful - Bachmann because she's anything but
Sneezy - Gingrich

Next 7 challenge?

25 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:44:32am

re: #14 publicityStunted

Romney is the "Trojan Horse" candidate - designed to reassure moderates and independents the GOP isn't really so bad, when in reality, he'll be beholden to the same debased base and obligated to enact their agenda (e.g. Ryan budget. Also see the actions of GOP govs like Walker, Scott, etc and imagine that on a national scale).

If Romney gets the nomination, this needs to be repeated ad nauseam for the next 12 months. Anyone who votes for him thinking he won't bow down to the God vs. Gays nutters is a fool.

26 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:44:54am

re: #24 darthstar

Doc - Paul
Dopey - Pawlenty
Sleepy - Romney
Grumpy - Cain
Happy - Santorum - he's on stage!
Bashful - Bachmann because she's anything but
Sneezy - Gingrich

Next 7 challenge?

7 castaways on Gilligan's Isle.

27 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:45:35am

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

7 castaways on Gilligan's Isle.

They're all Ginger.

28 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:46:11am

re: #27 darthstar

They're all Ginger.

No souls, eh?

29 Interesting Times  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:47:13am

re: #23 recusancy

Everyone pay attention. This is probably going to be a huge deal in the denial community.

I can see it inspiring a whole lot of "durr hurr, global warming is saving us from an ice age" jokes, but the scientific community can use it to make the same point I made last thread - if solar activity is low, why are we still experiencing warming when we should be seeing the opposite?

30 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:47:29am

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

7 castaways on Gilligan's Isle.

Mr. Howell - Romney
Mrs. Howell - Pawlenty (he wants what his hubby has)
Professor - Paul
Gilligan - Santorum
Skipper - Gingrich
MaryAnn - Bachmann
Ginger - Cain - because he'd bang the professor if he thought it would help him.

31 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:47:42am

Pick Romney for the nomination and kiss the rust belt goodbye?

32 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:48:27am

re: #31 SpaceJesus

Pick Romney for the nomination and kiss the rust belt goodbye?

When you think about it, a lot of auto companies now have factories in the South, so you can kiss that good-bye too.

33 Honorary Consul General  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:48:54am

re: #26 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

7 castaways on Gilligan's Isle.

Gilligan
Skipper
Professor
Mr. Howell
Mrs. Howell
Ginger
Mary Ann (the one that counts)

Now name the member of The Mosquitoes.

34 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:49:37am

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar


Mary Ann (the one that counts)

Now name the member of The Mosquitoes.

Everyone wants to do Mary Ann...

35 Interesting Times  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:49:53am

re: #31 SpaceJesus

Pick Romney for the nomination and kiss the rust belt, medicare, medicaid, social security, environmental protection, worker protection, consumer protection and the middle class goodbye.

Fixed.

36 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:50:19am

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gilligan
Skipper
Professor
Mr. Howell
Mrs. Howell
Ginger
Mary Ann (the one that counts)

Now name the member of The Mosquitoes.

37 Honorary Consul General  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:50:38am

re: #34 darthstar

Everyone wants to do Mary Ann...

She's a pot head.:)

38 SpaceJesus  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:52:11am

oh god the onion is awesome

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

39 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:53:07am

re: #33 Cannadian Club Akbar

Gilligan
Skipper
Professor
Mr. Howell
Mrs. Howell
Ginger
Mary Ann (the one that counts)

Now name the member of The Mosquitoes.

Bingo, Bango, Bongo and Irving

40 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:53:51am

re: #19 darthstar

Good point...but do they all fit?
Pride - Romney (oh you know it!)
Gluttony - Paul (he's a glutton for punishment)
Envy - Pawlenty (fucker's slow as they come)
Greed - Gingrich (it's all about selling books and movies)
Lust - Bachmann (because you know she's a wild one in private - 27,000 kids!)
Wrath - Cain (bitter, bitter man)
Sloth- Santorum (everyone else, including Pawlenty, is getting taken seriously)


You might have to redo that Gluttony one if Chris Christie takes the plunge.

Or the waddle.

41 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:07:06pm

Republican opposition to the bailouts, TARP and stimulus is what first woke me up to the hoax of fiscal conservatism. They wanted us to be the only country on earth to simply roll over and die without any attempt to save ourselves. There's plenty of room to criticize these measures (too big, too small, various tweaks, etc) but the whole tea party thing was a reaction to the only reasonable methods to save to the country from certain destruction.

42 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:07:51pm

OT--turned on TV out of boredom and saw my first 30 minutes of the "Casey Anthony Trial." 1. The accused is a beautiful woman, face, skin, figure...wow. 2. She's guilty as sin. 3. The death penalty is too good for her--she should be forced to become old and ugly over 60 years as a "guest" of the state of Florida, and it's a shame that she will have the benefit of an air conditioned facility.

But I'm not sure why the talking heads are saying over and over again that they feel so sorry for the accused's mother. I guess it sucks realizing that you bred and raised a sociopath, but ... she did. And it appears the mother is still not willing to realize that.

43 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:08:13pm

re: #38 SpaceJesus

oh god the onion is awesome

[Link: www.theonion.com...]

Makes him look like Jerry Brown.

44 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:09:20pm

Here's what GM is up to today....
GM Invests $20 Million in Kansas Plant for Buick LaCrosse

GM to invest $47 million In Defiance casting facility

GM invests in green transit


GM's commitment is part of a larger $30-million injection led by Silicon Valley venture capital firm Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers.


This is economic activity and jobs Republicans were willing to throw away.

45 Iwouldprefernotto  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:12:01pm

Palin insists that was was right about Paul Revere.

"insists" is the new, "I'm wrong, but my supporters don't care."

46 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:16:15pm

re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

There are 7 deadly sins.

Huh. I know there used to be, but I think we're down to 5 or 6 now. Greed is obviously gone, and I could make a case that Gluttony is gone as well...

47 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:18:32pm

re: #35 publicityStunted

Pick Romney for the nomination and kiss the rust belt, medicare, medicaid, social security, environmental protection, worker protection, consumer protection and the middle class goodbye.


Um, I think that could be said for any of those clowns. Romney's editorial should make it pretty easy to defeat him in the general election though. Especially with the fact that the GOP keeps screaming about JOBS!! and unemployment numbers. An awful lot of people here in the US work for auto companies and their suppliers, and an awful lot of people don't want to only be offered the choice of buying a Toyota, Honda, Hyundai, or Kia vehicle when searching for something that was built at a factory in the USA.

I could write the rebuttal commercial to Romney's "road bumps" ad right now...imagine all the "road bumps" he would have created if GM and Chrysler had been allowed to die. Good Lord. The stupid really does burn.

And I have an answer to "clean coal" as well....the technology to burn coal pretty efficiently and "cleanly" has existed since the 1970s, but conservative wonderland Texas doesn't require plants to use it! So are GOP candidates really advocating for a more muscular EPA that would be able to FORCE these coal plants in "10th amendment" paradises like Texas to use this "clean coal" technology? Wouldn't that be an EXPANSION of federal power over what is going on now?

Jeez, I wish I got to ask questions at these "debates."

48 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:18:53pm
This is economic activity and jobs Republicans were willing to throw away.

Blah blah blah blah Big Government blah blah blah job killing regulations blah blah blah job-killing Obamacare blah blah blah tax cuts blah blah

49 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:19:29pm

re: #41 Killgore Trout

Republican opposition to the bailouts, TARP and stimulus is what first woke me up to the hoax of fiscal conservatism. They wanted us to be the only country on earth to simply roll over and die without any attempt to save ourselves. There's plenty of room to criticize these measures (too big, too small, various tweaks, etc) but the whole tea party thing was a reaction to the only reasonable methods to save to the country from certain destruction.

I watched the HBO movie "Too Big To Fail" the other night....

It was just infuriating to watch them bickering throughout the whole collapse.....every single one of them knew what had to be done (massive bailouts) but nobody wanted to go against their conservative ideology and actually do what had to be done.

I still say that ANYONE who complained about the auto-bailout or TARP has absolutely no right to bring up the unemployment numbers as an attack on Obama, as allowing those industries to fail would have put the unemployment number up many many percentage points.

50 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:23:18pm

I'm not certain whether it was here or another site I haunt, but someone linked to the folliwing NPR story about Michelle Bachmann.

Bachmann Makes Most of GOP Presidential Debate

One paragraph that caught my eye was the following:

Though she supports an amendment to U.S. Constitution that would bar same-sex marriage, she would not "go into states" that allow same-sex marriage and "interfere"with their laws.


Is this even possible? If you passed a Constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, wouldn't that by definition be interfering with state laws.

51 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:24:19pm

re: #46 Jimmi the Grey

Huh. I know there used to be, but I think we're down to 5 or 6 now. Greed is obviously gone, and I could make a case that Gluttony is gone as well...

Replaced by "Texting at Table" and "Not Recylcling".

52 BishopX  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:26:53pm

re: #50 BongCrodny

It would basically be a constitutional amendment enshrining DOMA...bad idea..

53 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:27:12pm
Is this even possible? If you passed a Constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, wouldn't that by definition be interfering with state laws.

Yes, but you're not supposed to notice that.

54 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:27:29pm

re: #49 mr.fusion

Nah, TARP still pisses me off because the banks took their huge bailouts and still refuse to behave like companies in trouble, meaning they are still paying their executives ridiculous salaries, still refusing to modify home mortgages based upon realisitic appraisals of what the properties are really worth, still flying their private jets around and acting like damn kings, etc.

I have seen homes foreclosed upon, taken away from people who got screwed by the banks but would have kept paying mortgages based on current property values....bank kicks the current owner out, lets home sit empty and drag down neighborhood, lists house a year later, and sells it for LESS that the forclosed upon person tried to refi for....many times in the Las Vegas area. And all the while they take their bailout money and keep the good times rolling for their executives...

None of that is Obama's fault, mind you. TARP was a Bush/Paulson/Goldmann Sachs invention.

55 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:29:01pm

re: #54 funky chicken

Nah, TARP still pisses me off because the banks took their huge bailouts and still refuse to behave like companies in trouble, meaning they are still paying their executives ridiculous salaries, still refusing to modify home mortgages based upon realisitic appraisals of what the properties are really worth, still flying their private jets around and acting like damn kings, etc.

I have seen homes foreclosed upon, taken away from people who got screwed by the banks but would have kept paying mortgages based on current property values...bank kicks the current owner out, lets home sit empty and drag down neighborhood, lists house a year later, and sells it for LESS that the forclosed upon person tried to refi for...many times in the Las Vegas area. And all the while they take their bailout money and keep the good times rolling for their executives...

None of that is Obama's fault, mind you. TARP was a Bush/Paulson/Goldmann Sachs invention.

And I believe it was the Obama plan to help mortgagers who were underwater that provided the impetus for the teabaggers to dress funny and whine about Big Government.

57 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:29:50pm

re: #56 Winny Spencer

Fox's Eric Bolling Gives 14-Second Apology For "Fast And Loose" Language During "Hoodlum[s]" In "The Hizzouse" Segment

Sincere??

"I'm kinda sorry if some of you people took my racist comment to be racist."

58 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:30:59pm

re: #54 funky chicken

It pisses me off to but it needed to be done to preserve the financial infrastructure of the country.Now that the emergency has passed I'd love to see more talk of breaking up the big banks along with some very strict regulations and criminal investigations.

59 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:31:14pm

re: #54 funky chicken

Oh, I completely agree that the administration and oversight of the TARP funds was an absolute cluster mess.......

But without it we would have been completely effed in our collective a's.....there's no other way to put it (well maybe there's other ways to put it but they don't sound as funny)

60 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:31:41pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

It pisses me off to but it needed to be done to preserve the financial infrastructure of the country.Now that the emergency has passed I'd love to see more talk of breaking up the big banks along with some very strict regulations and criminal investigations.

y u want soshalism???

61 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:32:42pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

It pisses me off to but it needed to be done to preserve the financial infrastructure of the country.Now that the emergency has passed I'd love to see more talk of breaking up the big banks along with some very strict regulations and criminal investigations.

And it's the very strict regulations of the financial industry (the creation of the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau and Elizabeth Warren) that Republicans oppose.

62 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:33:01pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

It pisses me off to but it needed to be done to preserve the financial infrastructure of the country.Now that the emergency has passed I'd love to see more talk of breaking up the big banks along with some very strict regulations and criminal investigations.

Absolutely but it feels like it will never never happen......

My theory is that there's an unspoken understanding. If the WH starts hammering the financial sector they'll tank the markets....and nobody has the balls to call their bluff

63 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:33:21pm

re: #49 mr.fusion

I watched the HBO movie "Too Big To Fail" the other night...

It was just infuriating to watch them bickering throughout the whole collapse...every single one of them knew what had to be done (massive bailouts) but nobody wanted to go against their conservative ideology and actually do what had to be done.

I still say that ANYONE who complained about the auto-bailout or TARP has absolutely no right to bring up the unemployment numbers as an attack on Obama, as allowing those industries to fail would have put the unemployment number up many many percentage points.

The TPGOPers would have found a way to blame President Obama and the Dems in Congress, no matter what had happened with TARP or any other relief packages, guaranteed.

I also find a bit galling and more than a little ironic that Mitt Romney, son of George Romney (who was American Motors' chairman and CEO from 1954-1962 and the governor of Michigan for six years after that, before becoming the Secretary of HUD under Nixon), is talking smack about how the American auto industry should have been allowed to wither on the vine and drag the rest of the American and world economies down with it.

Dishonest, pandering sonofabitch...

64 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:33:46pm

re: #50 BongCrodny

I'm not certain whether it was here or another site I haunt, but someone linked to the folliwing NPR story about Michelle Bachmann.

Bachmann Makes Most of GOP Presidential Debate

One paragraph that caught my eye was the following:


Is this even possible? If you passed a Constitutional amendment banning same-sex marriage, wouldn't that by definition be interfering with state laws.

Exactly. It's just like "clean coal." The rational follow-up question: states like Texas don't force their utility companies to use existing technology to reduce coal emissions. Would you expand the power of the federal government so you could force states to require that their coal burning facilities have 100% compliance with "clean coal" standards--meaning no sulfur oxides and nitrogen oxides allowed in emissions? We have the technology today to do that. Texas is currently litigating against the EPA on this exact topic.

65 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:35:39pm

And since I brought it up I just have to make one more point about "Too Big To Fail."

I would have freaking strangled that putz, John Thain, if I'd been in the meeting telling the bank CEO's that taxpayers were going to fund a trillion dollar bailout of their entire industry........and the first question out of his mouth was about his freaking bonus.....holy crap I almost punched my TV in the face during that scene

66 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:38:49pm

re: #58 Killgore Trout

It pisses me off to but it needed to be done to preserve the financial infrastructure of the country.Now that the emergency has passed I'd love to see more talk of breaking up the big banks along with some very strict regulations and criminal investigations.

Dozens of people went to jail after the S&L debacle in the 80's.

Not one person has even been prosecuted for the 08 meltdown.

Want to really get a case of the ass? Watch last years Acadamy Award winning documentary Inside Job.

This is the movie that Michael Moores "Capitalism: A Love Story" should have been.

67 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:39:59pm

Back for a short time.

What's happened?

How is everyone?

68 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:40:14pm

re: #65 mr.fusion

And since I brought it up I just have to make one more point about "Too Big To Fail."

I would have freaking strangled that putz, John Thain, if I'd been in the meeting telling the bank CEO's that taxpayers were going to fund a trillion dollar bailout of their entire industry...and the first question out of his mouth was about his freaking bonus...holy crap I almost punched my TV in the face during that scene


This.

"The economy's hit the shitter, hundreds of thousands of people are losing their jobs, and we may be plunged into a depression. Now, what about me?"

69 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:41:12pm

re: #62 mr.fusion

Absolutely but it feels like it will never never happen...

My theory is that there's an unspoken understanding. If the WH starts hammering the financial sector they'll tank the markets...and nobody has the balls to call their bluff

Our transition from a functioning democracy to a corporate plutonomy is happening right in front of us, and there isn't a damned thing we can do about it short of actual armed revolt(and that would likely bring an even worse result). I don't think we have come to that as of yet.

70 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:41:17pm

"NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim June 14, 2011 as Flag Day and the week beginning June 12, 2011, as National Flag Week.  I direct the appropriate officials to display the flag on all Federal Government buildings during the week, and I urge all Americans to observe Flag Day and National Flag Week by displaying the flag."

71 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:42:31pm

re: #70 Ericus58

How dare he? He took off his flag lapel pin! This is the height of hypocracy!!!

72 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:42:37pm

re: #68 BongCrodny

This.

"The economy's hit the shitter, hundreds of thousands of people are losing their jobs, and we may be plunged into a depression. Now, what about me my private jet?"

73 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:42:59pm

The untold part of the story. GM Shareholders got zero. The shares were delisted and everyone who had held the shares got nothing.

That does not normally happen to a company that is just borrowing the money and planning to pay it back.

74 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:44:42pm

re: #70 Ericus58

"NOW, THEREFORE, I, BARACK OBAMA, President of the United States of America, do hereby proclaim June 14, 2011 as Flag Day and the week beginning June 12, 2011, as National Flag Week.  I direct the appropriate officials to display the flag on all Federal Government buildings during the week, and I urge all Americans to observe Flag Day and National Flag Week by displaying the flag."

Is Fox News trying to ignore this proclamation, in the spirit that President Obama is a Sekrit Mooslim Commie Usurper? I haven't looked over there, because I don't want my IQ (and my temper) to take a hit.

75 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:45:02pm

re: #62 mr.fusion

Absolutely but it feels like it will never never happen...

My theory is that there's an unspoken understanding. If the WH starts hammering the financial sector they'll tank the markets...and nobody has the balls to call their bluff

There's a slim chance something might get done in Obama's second term if Republicans lose the House. It could happen.

76 Vicious Babushka  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:45:21pm

re: #68 BongCrodny

This.

"The economy's hit the shitter, hundreds of thousands of people are losing their jobs, and we may be plunged into a depression. Now, what about me?"

Just like the BP "Captain of Industry" who "wanted his life back."

All of the entitlement with none of the responsibility.

77 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:45:26pm

re: #7 jaunte

Romney the honey badger.

Why are you insulting the honey badger?

I really don't recommend it. You know honey badger will fuck you up and down, he don't give a shit.

78 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:46:06pm

Summer fun

79 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:46:19pm

re: #68 BongCrodny

This.

"The economy's hit the shitter, hundreds of thousands of people are losing their jobs, and we may be plunged into a depression. Now, what about me?"

The banksters were actually whining about the need to get carry and conceal permits because their victims were getty uppity.

80 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:46:24pm

re: #73 Buck

The untold part of the story. GM Shareholders got zero. The shares were delisted and everyone who had held the shares got nothing.

That does not normally happen to a company that is just borrowing the money and planning to pay it back.


How much would they have gotten if the companies had gone under?

81 Winny Spencer  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:46:47pm

Who could possibly beat Bachmann in Iowa?

82 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:46:55pm

It's nice to see other people notice this trend....
Smartphone danger: Distracted parenting

83 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:47:03pm
84 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:47:33pm

re: #81 Winny Spencer

Who could possibly beat Bachmann in Iowa?

Gene Hackman...in character as the coach in Hoosiers.

85 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:48:01pm

re: #84 darthstar

Gene Hackman...in character as the coach in Hoosiers.

With Dennis Hopper as his running mate.

87 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:48:53pm

re: #85 iossarian

With Dennis Hopper as his running mate.

Hopper in character from Blue Velvet.

88 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:49:11pm

re: #87 darthstar

Hopper in character from Blue Velvet.

Image: blue-velvet.jpg

89 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:49:50pm

re: #84 darthstar

Gene Hackman...in character as the coach in Hoosiers.


Farm boy James Tiberius Kirk, but it's irrelevant since he won't be born for another couple hundred years.

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:49:57pm

re: #87 darthstar

Hopper in character from Blue Velvet.

G-d, I hated that movie.

91 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:50:13pm

re: #80 BongCrodny

How much would they have gotten if the companies had gone under?

You mean declared bankruptcy? I don't know.

But the point is that the rules were skirted in this case. If all that happened is that GM borrowed money and then paid it back, then what happened to the debt to the shareholders?

92 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:50:34pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

There's a slim chance something might get done in Obama's second term if Republicans lose the House. It could happen.

I keep holding out hope that a second term Obama will have a little more FDR in him than we've seen so far

For nearly four years you have had an Administration which instead of twirling its thumbs has rolled up its sleeves. We will keep our sleeves rolled up.

We had to struggle with the old enemies of peace—business and financial monopoly, speculation, reckless banking, class antagonism, sectionalism, war profiteering.

They had begun to consider the Government of the United States as a mere appendage to their own affairs. We know now that Government by organized money is just as dangerous as Government by organized mob.

Never before in all our history have these forces been so united against one candidate as they stand today. They are unanimous in their hate for me—and I welcome their hatred.

I should like to have it said of my first Administration that in it the forces of selfishness and of lust for power met their match. I should like to have it said of my second Administration that in it these forces met their master.

93 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:50:37pm

re: #86 Alouette

In Capitalist America, bank robs you.


I loves me some Yakov Smirnoff jokes.

Except when Yakov Smirnoff does them.

94 Big Steve  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:51:13pm

re: #80 BongCrodny

How much would they have gotten if the companies had gone under?


That would have depended on the bankruptcy judge. While typically equity owners are at the end of the line, they can still get something. Also they would have been able to bring a class action suit in the case of going under, they were stripped of that right under the bailout.

95 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:51:56pm

re: #75 Killgore Trout

re: #62 mr.fusion

Absolutely but it feels like it will never never happen...

My theory is that there's an unspoken understanding. If the WH starts hammering the financial sector they'll tank the markets...and nobody has the balls to call their bluff

There's a slim chance something might get done in Obama's second term if Republicans lose the House. It could happen.

I think they are hammering the financial sector now to make sure THAT won't happen.

96 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:52:21pm

Well, I didn't get my morning nap, so I'm going to start my afternoon nap early.

Have great day all!

97 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:53:24pm

re: #82 Killgore Trout

It's nice to see other people notice this trend...
Smartphone danger: Distracted parenting

(CNN) -- "Mama, put the phone AWAY."

That's my kid talking to me, and she's only 3.

She's scolding me, but she's scolding you, too.

So listen up.

I understand your work pays the bills and you only have time to connect to people through Tweeting your mood or reading your cousin's latest Facebook update. I really do get it. My phone is wearing holes in my favorite jeans.

I don't have a smart phone, but my two teenagers do. So her 3 year old certainly isn't talking to me. Just sayin' and all.

Speaking of which, it's time for me to go watch my son practice his kicking skills and then study for my summer class.

have a good day/evening, lizards. :-)

98 darthstar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:53:38pm

re: #92 mr.fusion

I keep holding out hope that a second term Obama will have a little more FDR in him than we've seen so far

One can hope...Obama gave the GOP a sound-byte though. He was interviewed (exclusively!!!) by some gal from MSNBC and she asked if he thought one term was enough. He said (laughing), "Sometimes there are days when I say one term is enough..." and that is the bit that his opponents will use.

99 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:54:39pm

re: #98 darthstar


Some politicians believe that half a term is enough...

100 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:54:53pm

re: #95 wrenchwench

There's a slim chance something might get done in Obama's second term if Republicans lose the House. It could happen.

I think they are hammering the financial sector now to make sure THAT won't happen.

I hate to be that cynical

But when you see the $2 trillion in funds remaining on the sidelines during one of the biggest stock run ups in the modern era, it makes you wonder. Would you be willing to keep your own money on the sidelines right now in the hopes that it would result in a Republican dominated Washington DC that would give you everything you've ever asked for?

101 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:57:15pm

re: #100 mr.fusion

I hate to be that cynical

But when you see the $2 trillion in funds remaining on the sidelines during one of the biggest stock run ups in the modern era, it makes you wonder.

When you quit wondering, it quits being cynicism. It becomes strategic thinking. The only way to beat tons of money is to go door to door.

102 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:57:21pm

O/T but interesting...

The murder of Iraqi prisoner Manadel al-Jamadi is being investigated. He died of blunt force trauma injuries and asphysiation apparently during interrogation while being subjected to a stress position kinown as strappado.
From wikipedia:

U.S. Navy SEALs had apprehended al-Jamadi following the October 27, 2003, bombing of Red Cross offices in Baghdad that killed 12 people. At approximately 4 am on November 4, 2003, al-Jamadi was led by American forces into the prison, naked from the waist down wearing only a purple shirt and jacket with a green sandbag over his head, while answering questions in both Arabic and English with his handlers.[1][3]

A ghost prisoner who was not logged in the records said he was passive and nervous "like a scared child", and there was reportedly "no need to get physical with him", though an interrogator soon started shouting at him, demanding to know where weapons were hidden.[3]

The cause of his death was not generally known until February 17, 2005, when it was revealed that he had died after a fruitless half-hour interrogation, during which he was suspended from a barred window by his wrists, which were bound behind his back. News reports introduced the term "Palestinian hanging." Associated Press correspondent Seth Hettena reported that 30 minutes after beginning his questioning of the prisoner, the CIA interrogator Mark Swanner called for guards to reposition al-Jamadi, who he believed was "playing possum" as he slouched with his arms stretched behind him. But the guards found otherwise:

"After we found out he was dead, they were nervous," Specialist Dennis Stevanus said of the CIA interrogator and translator. "They didn't know what the hell to do."[1]

Captain Donald Reese, company commander of the 372nd Military Police Company, gave testimony about al-Jamadi's death, saying that he saw the dead prisoner. Reese was quoted as saying that "I was told that when he was brought in, he was combative, that they took him up to the room and during the interrogation he passed [...] (the body) was bleeding from the head, nose, mouth."[4] Reese stated that the corpse was locked in a shower room overnight and the next day was fitted with an intravenous drip; he said that this was an attempt to hide what occurred from other inmates. Reese said the body was then autopsied, establishing the cause of death as a blood clot from trauma.

Sgt. Ivan Frederick wrote an account to his family in November 2003 that interrogators had "[s]tressed him out so bad that the man died. [Prison personnel] put his body in a body bag and packed him in ice for approximately twenty-four hours in the shower. [...] The next day the medics came and put his body on a stretcher, placed a fake IV in his arm and took him away".[5]

Al-Jamadi came to be known by some Abu Ghraib personnel as "The Iceman" and "Mr. Frosty". Others called him "Bernie", a reference to the movie Weekend at Bernie's in which a dead body is treated as if still alive.[6]

103 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:58:02pm

re: #94 Big Steve

That would have depended on the bankruptcy judge. While typically equity owners are at the end of the line, they can still get something. Also they would have been able to bring a class action suit in the case of going under, they were stripped of that right under the bailout.


I agree with both you and Buck that there seemed to be a bit of horseplay there, but I'll still go with the "greater good" scenario.

Again, however -- if Big Auto had gone under, would a class action suit have served any practical use other than to make a few lawyers rich?

I've got nothing to base this on other than a hunch, but wouldn't most successful class action suits be those against companies who are currently in business?

104 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:59:16pm

re: #102 celticdragon

But what if there was a ticking time bomb and only Jack Bauer could save us?

/

105 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 12:59:46pm

re: #91 Buck

You mean declared bankruptcy? I don't know.

But the point is that the rules were skirted in this case. If all that happened is that GM borrowed money and then paid it back, then what happened to the debt to the shareholders?

You don't know. I'll help you out. Zero. They would have received zero. At least in this situation a company and jobs were saved.

106 celticdragon  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:00:28pm

re: #104 iossarian

But what if there was a ticking time bomb and only Jack Bauer could save us?

/

Obviously, we beat him to death and then search his pockets for loose change a useful clue.
/

107 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:02:28pm

re: #86 Alouette

In Capitalist America, bank robs you.

Lol, favorited!

108 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:04:23pm

re: #91 Buck

What rule was skirted, Buck? Please be specific.

110 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:06:05pm

re: #103 BongCrodny

I agree with both you and Buck that there seemed to be a bit of horseplay there, but I'll still go with the "greater good" scenario.

Again, however -- if Big Auto had gone under, would a class action suit have served any practical use other than to make a few lawyers rich?

I've got nothing to base this on other than a hunch, but wouldn't most successful class action suits be those against companies who are currently in business?

Ford did not take a bailout. There are MANY cars being built in the USA that are NOT built by GM or Chrysler.

I think Romney's point is that allowing these companies to go Chapter 11 and then perhaps shed some debt, and more than a few union contracts, might have had a similar result, or maybe even a better result.

There is no indication that demand for cars would have gone down by 2/3rds. Someone would have still needed to build those cars.

111 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:06:10pm

re: #109 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I can't believe there's actually a 'powerhouse church'. What is that, "My pastor can beat up your pastor"?

112 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:06:58pm

re: #105 recusancy

You don't know. I'll help you out. Zero. They would have received zero. At least in this situation a company and jobs were saved.


Another point in all this is that when the GM shares got delisted, they were trading at under $1.00 per share.

GM stock was trading between $.27-$1.04 per share the day it was delisted.

If you held on to your GM stock until then, you lost your investment a long time before that.

113 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:07:05pm

re: #110 Buck

There was no-one prepared to lead them into chapter 11, Buck. Chapter 13 was a real possibility.

Nice to see you slip in the standard hypnotized anti-union blurb.

114 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:07:18pm

re: #108 Obdicut

What rule was skirted, Buck? Please be specific.

I was specific. The stock was delisted. That does not normally happen if a company is just borrowing money that it intends to pay back.

115 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:07:28pm

re: #108 Obdicut

What rule was skirted, Buck? Please be specific.

i'm sure there are some people who think the rule is that investor class people must be protected even if working class people have to lose their jobs

116 Killgore Trout  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:07:44pm

re: #102 celticdragon

I looked into that earlier....
Federal Grand Jury Investigates War Crimes and Torture in Death of 'the Iceman' at Abu Ghraib, Plus Other Alleged CIA Abuses

Even groups like the American Civil Liberties Union are unhappy, because Durham's mandate focuses on CIA activity that exceeded guidelines drawn up by top Bush Administration lawyers. ACLU officials have argued that the guidelines were too lax.


I have no problem with the investigation into people who broke the law and exceeded the guidelines. Abu Grahib was a zoo.

117 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:07:49pm

re: #114 Buck

What rule is that, Buck? You weren't very specific.

118 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:09:02pm

re: #110 Buck

I think Romney's point is that allowing these companies to go Chapter 11 and then perhaps shed some debt, and more than a few union contracts, might have had a similar result, or maybe even a better result.

or the fallout from two giant bankruptcies might have dominoed to tragic proportions

to much at stake to gamble on the free market fairy

119 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:10:03pm

re: #112 BongCrodny

Another point in all this is that when the GM shares got delisted, they were trading at under $1.00 per share.

GM stock was trading between $.27-$1.04 per share the day it was delisted.

If you held on to your GM stock until then, you lost your investment a long time before that.

That is because everyone know it was going to zero. What price was it when that was announced?

If you were allowed to hold it., then you would hope as the company came back, you would be rewarded.

120 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:12:29pm

re: #17 Alouette

GM and Chrysler have repaid their government loans IN FULL

Sorry but that is more debatable than we would have liked to see.
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

However, a March 16 Congressional Oversight report, tells a different story. It estimates taxpayers will be out of $25 billion. Additionally, the report points out that “full repayment will not be possible unless the government is able to sell its remaining shares at a far higher price.”

That's only the beginning. Both the White House and the Congressional Oversight report omit the fact that during its bankruptcy, GM got a $45 billion tax break, courtesy of the American people.

GM is driving “away from its U.S.-government-financed restructuring with a final gift in its trunk: a tax break that could be worth as much as $45 billion,” reported The Wall Street Journal last November.

Over one year after the promises President Obama and his administration made about the auto bailout, a February piece on AutoBlog also confirms that GM will also get a $14 billion dollar domestic tax break:

121 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:13:02pm

re: #113 Obdicut

There was no-one prepared to lead them into chapter 11, Buck. Chapter 13 was a real possibility.

Nice to see you slip in the standard hypnotized anti-union blurb.

GM filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in the Manhattan New York federal bankruptcy court on June 1, 2009

122 Sol Berdinowitz  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:13:14pm

re: #119 Buck

Remember that lovely financial trick by which the Enron employees who held company stock as part of their pension plan were forbidden to sell their shares while the execs who knew what was coming were able to unload their shares before everything tanked?

123 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:14:02pm

re: #120 Rightwingconspirator

How much do you trust the writer of that article?

124 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:14:08pm

re: #122 ralphieboy

Yes, I certainly do remember that.

125 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:14:21pm

re: #121 Buck

GM filed for Chapter 11 reorganization in the Manhattan New York federal bankruptcy court on June 1, 2009

What is the rule you're citing that you're claiming was skirted, Buck?

126 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:15:02pm

re: #17 Alouette

GM and Chrysler have repaid their government loans IN FULL

Oops forgot Chrysler
Factcheck.org
[Link: www.factcheck.org...]
Excerpt
Taxpayer beware: You have to read the fine print to know what the president means when he says Chrysler has paid back "every dime" of loans it received "during my watch." The company got $12.5 billion in bailout funds under the Bush and Obama administrations, but — despite what the president said — isn't expected to pay about $1.3 billion of it.

127 Stanghazi  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:15:05pm

Oh my god.

BreakingNews Breaking News

Court rules against motion to overturn CA's Prop8 ruling because of judge's same-sex relationship - @KQEDnews [Link: bit.ly...]

128 Stanghazi  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:16:32pm

re: #127 Stanley Sea

Oh my god.

BreakingNews Breaking News

Court rules against motion to overturn CA's Prop8 ruling because of judge's same-sex relationship - @KQEDnews [Link: bit.ly...]

I mis-read this. It's a good ruling. Sorry. (Plus the link doesn't work!)

129 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:16:59pm

re: #128 Stanley Sea

lolol

130 Stanghazi  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:17:16pm

re: #129 windsagio

lolol

Shut up!

132 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:17:57pm

re: #130 Stanley Sea

<3

133 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:18:34pm

re: #120 Rightwingconspirator

Sorry but that is more debatable than we would have liked to see.
[Link: www.washingtontimes.com...]

However, a March 16 Congressional Oversight report, tells a different story. It estimates taxpayers will be out of $25 billion. Additionally, the report points out that “full repayment will not be possible unless the government is able to sell its remaining shares at a far higher price.”

That's only the beginning. Both the White House and the Congressional Oversight report omit the fact that during its bankruptcy, GM got a $45 billion tax break, courtesy of the American people.

GM is driving “away from its U.S.-government-financed restructuring with a final gift in its trunk: a tax break that could be worth as much as $45 billion,” reported The Wall Street Journal last November.

Over one year after the promises President Obama and his administration made about the auto bailout, a February piece on AutoBlog also confirms that GM will also get a $14 billion dollar domestic tax break:

i'll see your auto company tax break and raise you an oil company tax break:

Oil Companies’ $21 Billion U.S. Tax Break Survives Repeal Effort in Senate
By Jim Snyder - May 17, 2011 9:00 PM PT

The U.S. oil and gas industry survived an effort to repeal $21 billion in tax breaks over 10 years as three Democrats broke with Senate leaders who said the revenue should go to reduce the federal deficit.

strangely enough, however, the oil companies remain highly - and i mean highly profitable, so, um, why do they get a tax break?

134 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:18:44pm

re: #130 Stanley Sea

Shut up!

I predict a hideous wailing and gnashing of teeth, accusations that the next natural disaster is a sign of God's anger, etc etc.

135 SteelGHAZI  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:18:45pm

re: #131 windsagio

There was a debate? I thought it was an episode of "Who hates Obama more?"

136 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:19:50pm

re: #123 Obdicut

How much do you trust the writer of that article?

Enough in this particular article to say it's debatable. Many media sources accept paying off those loans as having filled all obligations. Which is in error. Feel free to look into the links in the article, or to search further. Ignoring the tax breaks would be ignoring a substantial part of the reality of the situation overall. Without the tax breaks could they have paid? I doubt it. Looks like accounting sleight of hand.

Of course we have this from Wired
The federal government, along with the governments of Canada and Ontario, loaned General Motors $8.4 billion and took equity stakes in the automaker after it filed for bankruptcy last June. Although the company has paid back all of its loans, the loans were but a small part of the $50 billion GM received from Washington last year. Uncle Sam will get that money back when General Motors goes public and the government can sell its 60.8 percent stake in the company.

137 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:20:14pm

re: #119 Buck

That is because everyone know it was going to zero. What price was it when that was announced?

If you were allowed to hold it., then you would hope as the company came back, you would be rewarded.


GM stock was trading at $3 in 2008, and in 2007 Motley Fool called GM "The Worst Stock for 2007," so I guess you can take out of that what you will.

138 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:22:25pm

re: #133 engineer dog


The U.S. oil and gas industry survived an effort to repeal $21 billion in tax breaks over 10 years as three Democrats broke with Senate leaders who said the revenue should go to reduce the federal deficit.

strangely enough, however, the oil companies remain highly - and i mean highly profitable, so, um, why do they get a tax break?

It s a bit of a trick of words. One of "tax breaks" is that they get to deduct against earnings the cost of searching for oil, for example. It is a very expensive part of the process.

139 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:22pm

re: #138 Buck

They're still plenty profitable and could have afforded to go without the breaks.

Hell, I understand if they have to raise the price of gas a little bit too, it'll have the added bonus of really pissing off the Saudi royal family.

140 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:27pm

re: #136 Rightwingconspirator

I'm sorry, if we start counting tax breaks, then we're really in a different area. There's tons of companies that get gigantic tax breaks every year, for a variety of reasons. Why are these tax breaks special?

And yes, the government may lose money selling GM stock, but that's separate from the actual loans. I hope the price recovers and this isn't true. But the statement that they've repaid the loans in full is accurate.

[Link: www.frumforum.com...]

141 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:38pm

re: #138 Buck

It s a bit of a trick of words. One of "tax breaks" is that they get to deduct against earnings the cost of searching for oil, for example. It is a very expensive part of the process.

None of the same "tricks of words" apply in the case of the auto companies of course.

Tax breaks are good, unless they are part of the successful outcome of a Democratic president's policy, in which scenario they are an evil, evil thing.

142 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:40pm

re: #138 Buck

It s a bit of a trick of words. One of "tax breaks" is that they get to deduct against earnings the cost of searching for oil, for example. It is a very expensive part of the process.

i think they can afford it without taxpayer help

don't you?

143 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:50pm

re: #133 engineer dog

At least the taxpayers never bought Exxon.
Or Ford BTW!

Serious question-When Romney talked about letting GM go bankrupt are we assuming he meant Chap 7- a shut down and sale of all assets or are we assuming he meant Chap- 11 reorganizing and continuing in biz?

144 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:24:53pm

Gay Judge's Same-Sex Marriage Ruling Upheld


A federal judge has upheld a gay judge's ruling to strike down California's same-sex marriage ban.

Chief U.S. District Judge James Ware said Tuesday that former Chief Judge Vaughn Walker did not have to divulge whether he wanted to marry his own gay partner before he declared last year that voter-approved Proposition 8 was unconstitutional.

145 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:02pm

re: #138 Buck

Why did you put 'tax break' in quotes there? You don't consider it a real tax break for some reason?

146 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:13pm

re: #136 Rightwingconspirator

Uncle Sam will get that money back when General Motors goes public and the government can sell its 60.8 percent stake in the company.

Correct, and the unsaid part of that is what price the stock has to reach in order to break even.

147 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:27pm

re: #140 Obdicut

It's parsing the picture overall in an extra favorable light.

148 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:29pm

re: #138 Buck

It s a bit of a trick of words. One of "tax breaks" is that they get to deduct against earnings the cost of searching for oil, for example. It is a very expensive part of the process.

Umm... That's not a trick of words. They get a break on their taxes. That's a "tax break".

149 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:34pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

There wasn't any other entity willing to provide the financial security it'd have taken for them to get through chapter 11.

150 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:25:54pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

At least the taxpayers never bought Exxon.

no - oil companies buy governments, not the other way around

151 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:26:06pm

re: #145 Obdicut

Why did you put 'tax break' in quotes there? You don't consider it a real tax break for some reason?

It's such bullshit. One minute it's "skirting the rules", the next it's "a bit of a trick of words", not really a tax break, you see.

152 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:26:53pm

re: #142 engineer dog

i think they can afford it without taxpayer help

don't you?

Companies of all types have business tax deductions.

153 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:27:17pm

re: #143 Rightwingconspirator

At least the taxpayers never bought Exxon.
Or Ford BTW!

Serious question-When Romney talked about letting GM go bankrupt are we assuming he meant Chap 7- a shut down and sale of all assets or are we assuming he meant Chap- 11 reorganizing and continuing in biz?

Here's his oped: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

154 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:27:25pm

re: #120 Rightwingconspirator

Well, that article is in the extreme right wing Washington Times, and it's by a blogger for Newsbusters, so I suggest it would be a very good idea to independently verify the claims. Because both of those sources are shameless liars.

But even if there's a kernel of truth in this, the bigger question is: what would have been the effects on the US economy if the auto industries had gone bankrupt?

Answer: it would have been a catastrophe. Even if it's true (which I doubt) that taxpayers will still be out $25B, this is a drop in the bucket compared to what it would have cost to let them fail.

155 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:27:54pm

re: #152 Buck

Companies of all types have business tax deductions.

In which case, there's presumably no problem in excluding them from estimates of profitability or bailout payback in the case of the auto companies, right?

Since "companies of all types" have them?

156 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:29:03pm

ok talk to y'all later, here's a present:

Image: medlarge1221.jpg

157 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:29:12pm

re: #138 Buck

It s a bit of a trick of words. One of "tax breaks" is that they get to deduct against earnings the cost of searching for oil, for example. It is a very expensive part of the process.

Getting a "break" on your "taxes" so that you don't have to pay as many "taxes" as you would have before the "break" is a goddamn "tax break".

I don't think "trick of words" means what you think it means.

158 Ericus58  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:29:16pm

re: #153 recusancy

Here's his oped: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

"Second, management as is must go. New faces should be recruited from unrelated industries — from companies widely respected for excellence in marketing, innovation, creativity and labor relations.

The new management must work with labor leaders to see that the enmity between labor and management comes to an end. This division is a holdover from the early years of the last century, when unions brought workers job security and better wages and benefits. But as Walter Reuther, the former head of the United Automobile Workers, said to my father, “Getting more and more pay for less and less work is a dead-end street.”"

159 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:29:17pm

re: #152 Buck

Companies of all types have business tax deductions.

that doesn't make it a good thing

why do we have to give tax breaks to companies that make brobdignagian profits? can you explain that to me?

160 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:29:45pm

re: #151 iossarian

It's such bullshit. One minute it's "skirting the rules", the next it's "a bit of a trick of words", not really a tax break, you see.

You know it was two different topics right? What are you objecting to? The words I use? You don't like my use of language.

Is every business tax deduction a tax break? You can think so, but most business owners would not think so.

What about you Obdicut? When you file you business taxes (on the NY company that you own 100%) do you have any expenses you deduct? Do you think of them as Government tax breaks?

161 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:30:25pm

re: #160 Buck

do you have any expenses you deduct? Do you think of them as Government tax breaks?

Yes, and yes.

162 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:30:46pm
Is every business tax deduction a tax break?

Yes.

As is every individual tax deduction.

163 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:30:48pm

re: #155 iossarian

In which case, there's presumably no problem in excluding them from estimates of profitability or bailout payback in the case of the auto companies, right?

Since "companies of all types" have them?

You really are crossing the streams here. The business deductions/tax breaks was about the oil companies, not the bail outs.

164 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:31:13pm

re: #149 Obdicut
So as I said debatable... Not wrong just more complex.
From Fact check
Q: Did General Motors repay its TARP loan from the Treasury with other TARP money?
A: Yes. GM repaid the loan portion of the automaker bailout ahead of schedule, with interest. It used TARP money it had already received but hadn’t spent. And taxpayers are still stuck with GM stock that isn’t worth what was paid for it.

165 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:31:22pm

Call them "business deductions" or "tax breaks," the reality is they go against the supposed "free market" by making/keeping a business profitable. If the oil companies lost their deducations/breaks, would they remain profitable? If yes, then why do they need them? If no, then why is the government propping them up, against the "will of the market"?

166 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:31:53pm

re: #153 recusancy

Here's his oped: [Link: www.nytimes.com...]

And from that op-ed Romney wrote:

It is not wrong to ask for government help, but the automakers should come up with a win-win proposition. I believe the federal government should invest substantially more in basic research — on new energy sources, fuel-economy technology, materials science and the like — that will ultimately benefit the automotive industry, along with many others. I believe Washington should raise energy research spending to $20 billion a year, from the $4 billion that is spent today. The research could be done at universities, at research labs and even through public-private collaboration. The federal government should also rectify the imbedded tax penalties that favor foreign carmakers.

What do you want to bet he still believes in that?

167 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:32:07pm

re: #160 Buck

You know it was two different topics right? What are you objecting to? The words I use? You don't like my use of language.

Is every business tax deduction a tax break? You can think so, but most business owners would not think so.

What about you Obdicut? When you file you business taxes (on the NY company that you own 100%) do you have any expenses you deduct? Do you think of them as Government tax breaks?

when i get my annual mortgage deduction, i certainly do think of it as a tax break, since it means i don't have to pay as much in taxes

168 Winny Spencer  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:33:07pm

"We should think about protecting our borders, rather than the borders between Iraq and Afghanistan." - Luap Nor, idiot.

169 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:33:24pm

re: #165 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

If yes, then why do they need them? If no, then why is the government propping them up, against the "will of the market"?

Link

170 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:34:18pm

re: #167 engineer dog

Buck pretty much speaks a language all his own. I think you can find the rules for its grammar on Conservapedia.

171 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:35:17pm

Also, oil workers are unionized in the USW.

172 mr.fusion  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:35:20pm

re: #167 engineer dog

when i get my annual mortgage deduction, i certainly do think of it as a tax break, since it means i don't have to pay as much in taxes

Since I don't have a mortgage I look at it as an individual mandate on buying a home.

My freedom is at risk!

173 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:35:25pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Yes, and yes.

Good, and if the government those deductions away from you, just because you made a profit, and they figured you 'didn't really need it'?

174 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:36:20pm

re: #163 Buck

You really are crossing the streams here. The business deductions/tax breaks was about the oil companies, not the bail outs.

Actually, Buck, I agree that you were not talking about tax breaks in the context of the auto companies. That was the article mentioned above that argued that you have to factor their tax breaks into determining whether they've paid back the bailout funds. My apologies.

However, the wider point is that a tax deduction is a tax break, plain and simple. The question surrounding such tax breaks is not whether or not they should exist, but what the specifics should be, since the goal of tax policy is usually to bring about some socially desirable outcome (or should be, at least).

I think you're confusing opposition to tax breaks that benefit wealthy, polluting sectors of industry (such as the oil companies) with opposition to tax breaks in general, which would be an odd position for anyone to take. Tax breaks for solar power companies, for example, are a good thing. Ditto tax breaks that allowed the auto companies to make it through the downturn (though those companies still have a lot of work to do).

175 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:36:29pm

re: #171 recusancy

Also, oil workers are unionized in the USW.

Which would be part of AFL-CIO (CLC in Canada).

176 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:37:29pm

re: #167 engineer dog

when i get my annual mortgage deduction, i certainly do think of it as a tax break, since it means i don't have to pay as much in taxes

OK, and if the government decided that you didn't need that deduction any more because you make a profit anyway? Continued to give it to your neighbor mind you, as he seems to spend his money and doesn't have a profit....

177 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:37:53pm

re: #154 Charles

Fortunately I found fact check and wired to help me make my point. I agree in full a chapter 7 shutdown of GM and Chrysler would have been a disaster. You might agree with me both sides have been overstating or cherry picking to help their points. Like GM paying the loans with unspent TARP money. That's (to me at least) kinda revealing. I'm not saying Romney was right. I am saying it's not wise to get too excited about the loan payoff given how that came about. GM stock has a long way to go before the peoples investment in that stock would break even.

178 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:38:15pm

re: #164 Rightwingconspirator

Ah, now I get you; they basically gave back unused money. That still seems like repaying the debt. If you lend me five thousand and I give you back the same five thousand after a week, I still repaid that debt.

I think the government will probably wind up losing money on the deal, quite a bit of money. I also think it was a good idea; I wish we'd done more to curtail their functions as financial institutions at the same time, but that's past now.

179 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:38:38pm

re: #176 Buck

OK, and if the government decided that you didn't need that deduction any more because you make a profit anyway? Continued to give it to your neighbor mind you, as he seems to spend his money and doesn't have a profit...

Work on your grammar and resubmit.

180 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:39:25pm

re: #176 Buck

OK, and if the government decided that you didn't need that deduction any more because you make a profit anyway? Continued to give it to your neighbor mind you, as he seems to spend his money and doesn't have a profit...

You're absolutely right, Buck. The decision to allow vastly profitable oil companies to retain tax breaks while stiffing retirees and the poor on medical benefits in order to reduce the deficit is just an admirable case of the government treating everyone the same way.

181 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:39:29pm

re: #173 Buck

Good, and if the government those deductions away from you, just because you made a profit, and they figured you 'didn't really need it'?

Well, that'd happen through this democratic process we've got, with representatives I get to vote for, so I'd be okay with it.

I just found out that one break I thought I got, I don't. Yet somehow, I'm able to carry on. It's very brave of me.

182 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:40:17pm

We must protect the sanctity of marriage, as laid out in the Bible:

Image: 4BWCh.jpg

That was Tweeted by this guy. I don't know whether he also made it.

183 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:40:52pm

re: #181 Obdicut

Well, that'd happen through this democratic process we've got, with representatives I get to vote for, so I'd be okay with it.

I just found out that one break I thought I got, I don't. Yet somehow, I'm able to carry on. It's very brave of me.

You're an American Hero, Obdi. Not like those welfare queens next door gaming the system in their gold-plated Cadillacs.

184 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:41:07pm

re: #154 Charles

and it's by a blogger for Newsbusters,

I had no idea about that! The Wash Post bias I am aware of. But not the writers Newsbusters connection.

185 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:41:47pm

re: #183 iossarian

You're an American Hero, Obdi. Not like those welfare queens next door gaming the system in their gold-plated Cadillacs.

I'm not quite as brave as Paul Ryan, of course.

186 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:42:02pm

re: #184 Rightwingconspirator

I had no idea about that! The Wash Post bias I am aware of. But not the writers Newsbusters connection.

PIMF Wash. Times not the Post.

187 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:42:09pm

re: #176 Buck

OK, and if the government decided that you didn't need that deduction any more because you make a profit anyway? Continued to give it to your neighbor mind you, as he seems to spend his money and doesn't have a profit...

i never asked for the mortgage deduction and i don't mind that my tax money is used to help people in trouble that i never met

but! according to republicans in congress that i hear on the teevee machine, government shouldn't be meddling in the free market in any way, so nobody should get any "deductions" or "tax breaks" or whatever you want to call it - right?

so why does the republican party support meddling in the operation of the free market by propping up oil companies?

could you answer that one for me please?

188 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:42:10pm

re: #185 Obdicut

I'm not quite as brave as Paul Ryan, of course.

He does have a very square jaw, to be fair.

189 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:42:25pm

re: #179 recusancy

Work on your grammar and resubmit.

Nah.

I guess my point is that there is a difference between SPECIAL industry specific tax breaks and tax breaks.

The tax break that allows oil companies to deduct their expenses is not a SPECIAL industry specific tax break.

190 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:43:20pm

re: #177 Rightwingconspirator

Fortunately I found fact check and wired to help me make my point. I agree in full a chapter 7 shutdown of GM and Chrysler would have been a disaster. You might agree with me both sides have been overstating or cherry picking to help their points. Like GM paying the loans with unspent TARP money. That's (to me at least) kinda revealing. I'm not saying Romney was right. I am saying it's not wise to get too excited about the loan payoff given how that came about. GM stock has a long way to go before the peoples investment in that stock would break even.

True, the stock is devalued.

But it would have been worth exactly zero if the companies had been allowed to go under.

191 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:43:33pm

re: #188 iossarian

He does have a very square jaw, to be fair.


Verily, let the Jaw of Fortitude run in 2016!

192 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:45:22pm

Heck I'm old enough to recall when GM was a rock solid unquestionable blue chip stock. The state it got into makes me weep.

193 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:45:39pm

re: #189 Buck

Hah. I read the American Petroleum Institute, totally coincidentally, arguing the same damn thing.

It's bullshit, of course.

[Link: blog.pappastax.com...]

194 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:46:44pm

re: #187 engineer dog


so why does the republican party support meddling in the operation of the free market by propping up oil companies?

could you answer that one for me please?

I will try. First by giving the same rules for all businesses, and not just certain ones they are not "propping up" anyone. The table isn't slanted.

Second the tax rules are the tax rules, and I don't think anyone can blame just the Republican party for the ability to reduce the taxable income of the company by deducting business expenses.

195 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:47:26pm

re: #189 Buck

Nah.

I guess my point is that there is a difference between SPECIAL industry specific tax breaks and tax breaks.

The tax break that allows oil companies to deduct their expenses is not a SPECIAL industry specific tax break.

could you explain to me exactly why oil companies need one cent of my hard earned tax dollars?

196 kingkenrod  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:48:37pm

Romney's op-ed supports a managed bankruptcy instead of a bail-out. Didn't GM and Chrysler eventually get managed bankruptcies?

197 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:48:56pm

re: #189 Buck

Nah.

I guess my point is that there is a difference between SPECIAL industry specific tax breaks and tax breaks.

The tax break that allows oil companies to deduct their expenses is not a SPECIAL industry specific tax break.

I would like to know why we need so many tax breaks, SPECIAL or not. I heard Jon Stewart say last week that we have one of the highest actual corporate tax rates and yet one of the lowest effective corporate tax rates, due to all the deductions and loopholes present within our system. I can't remember if he sourced that or not, and I'm at work so can't spend the time to try and source it myself right now.

But if true, why not do away with most of those breaks/loopholes and bring the rate down to a reasonable level? Would that put too many accountants out of work? I'm no expert on these issues admittedly, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but that seems like a good goal to work towards.

198 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:48:58pm

Where do they come up with this horrible stuff that completely ignores physics, geology, geography, and...uhh...well everything!



Oh Noes! Really fast glaciers are coming! W.T.F?

199 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:49:39pm

re: #196 kingkenrod

They only got a managed bankruptcy because of the bailout. Before that, there wasn't anyone willing to take the financial risks of guaranteeing them through the bankruptcy.

200 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:49:58pm

re: #194 Buck

I will try. First by giving the same rules for all businesses, and not just certain ones they are not "propping up" anyone. The table isn't slanted.

then if my little software company does some oil exploration, i can get a tax break for that?

Second the tax rules are the tax rules, and I don't think anyone can blame just the Republican party for the ability to reduce the taxable income of the company by deducting business expenses.

why do immensely profitable oil companies need a break taken out of my tax money?

201 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:51:20pm

re: #164 Rightwingconspirator

So as I said debatable... Not wrong just more complex.
From Fact check
Q: Did General Motors repay its TARP loan from the Treasury with other TARP money?
A: Yes. GM repaid the loan portion of the automaker bailout ahead of schedule, with interest. It used TARP money it had already received but hadn’t spent. And taxpayers are still stuck with GM stock that isn’t worth what was paid for it.

I don't think that's correct. According to Grassley the money they used to repay the loan came from a TARP escrow account. In other words, they took out another TARP loan to repay the first.

202 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:51:52pm

re: #201 RogueOne

No, Factcheck specifically says that's not what happened.

203 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:53:04pm

re: #196 kingkenrod

Romney's op-ed supports a managed bankruptcy instead of a bail-out. Didn't GM and Chrysler eventually get managed bankruptcies?

Exactly. They went bankrupt and they were going to go bankrupt no matter how much money the feds tossed at them.

204 Bulworth  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:53:38pm
First by giving the same rules for all businesses, and not just certain ones they are not "propping up" anyone. The table isn't slanted.

I don't think that's necessarily true. The tax deduction might be of a general basis but due to a particular company's size and wealth, could be of more value to it then to other companies.

205 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:53:43pm

re: #203 RogueOne

And because of the money tossed at them, they were able to go chapter 11, and not chapter 7.

This was in the middle of the financial crisis, remember?

206 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:54:05pm

re: #195 engineer dog

could you explain to me exactly why oil companies need one cent of my hard earned tax dollars?

That would take a lot longer. However I will try. If you penalize an industry, just because you don't like them then you risk them not doing business in your State, or even country.

As much as you seem to hate the oil industry, I am sure you know that the economy is very dependent on them. Much like the automobile industry in the topic. The oil companies are not asking for a bailout (which seems to me to be, in part, the confusion), just the same tax rules as any other industry.

And in fact you only give them your "hard earned tax dollars" when you buy something from them.

Letting them deduct legitimate business expenses from their earnings is not taking tax money from the government.

207 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:54:29pm

re: #194 Buck

I will try. First by giving the same rules for all businesses, and not just certain ones they are not "propping up" anyone. The table isn't slanted.

Second the tax rules are the tax rules, and I don't think anyone can blame just the Republican party for the ability to reduce the taxable income of the company by deducting business expenses.

This is far too simplistic. It's impossible to come up with the "same rules" for all businesses, because the nature of what those businesses do is so different.

For example, the oil companies have tax breaks based on the amount of oil they extract. How would you make that the "same" break as a software company developing a graphical 3-d modeling application?

Tax breaks have to be decided on a case-by-case basis, and the determining factor should be: what is the desirable outcome, and how can we incentivize people to pursue it? At the moment we're throwing money at the oil companies and screwing over the poor and elderly to do so, thanks largely to Republican veto power in the Senate (and the inability of some centrist Dems from "energy states" to do the right thing).

208 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:54:31pm

re: #204 Bulworth

Yeah. First of all, it's meant to subsidize manufacturing. That's not all companies.

Second, it's not the only tax being addressed. So were deductions for "foreign royalty leases and intangible drilling and development expenses."

209 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:55:17pm

re: #197 rhino2

I would like to know why we need so many tax breaks, SPECIAL or not. I heard Jon Stewart say last week that we have one of the highest actual corporate tax rates and yet one of the lowest effective corporate tax rates, due to all the deductions and loopholes present within our system. I can't remember if he sourced that or not, and I'm at work so can't spend the time to try and source it myself right now.

But if true, why not do away with most of those breaks/loopholes and bring the rate down to a reasonable level? Would that put too many accountants out of work? I'm no expert on these issues admittedly, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but that seems like a good goal to work towards.

OK, so maybe you are a flat tax guy? I think you will find a friend in Ron Paul.

Despite my being a conservative, and a bit of a libertarian, I am not a flat tax advocate.

210 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:55:41pm

re: #202 Obdicut

No, Factcheck specifically says that's not what happened.

I understand that and I said Factcheck is either mistaken or they worded it incorrectly. The money they used came from an escrow account within TARP. It was a separate loan. If it had come from money already loaned to them they couldn't have claimed the money was all paid back if they were using the same money.

[Link: grassley.senate.gov...]


WASHINGTON --- Senator Chuck Grassley is asking the Treasury Secretary to justify claims that General Motors has repaid its TARP loans when GM is using other TARP funds to repay the loans.


“It looks like the announcement is really just an elaborate TARP money shuffle,” Grassley said. “The repayment dollars haven’t come from GM selling cars but, instead, from a TARP escrow account at the Treasury Department.”

211 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:55:45pm

re: #206 Buck

Much like the automobile industry in the topic. The oil companies are not asking for a bailout (which seems to me to be, in part, the confusion), just the same tax rules as any other industry.
.

That part isn't at all true. They are asking for, and have, different tax rules than many other industries.

212 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:55:47pm

re: #198 ausador

Heh, you think that's bad? Try reading "Fallen Angels" by Niven, Pournelle & Flynn about how ebil tree hugging libs cause, among other things, a new ice age by stopping non-existant AGW. Really hideous piece of propaganda that is by far the worst thing any of those three have written.

213 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:56:40pm

re: #207 iossarian

What I meant is all oil companies have the same rules, and all the software companies have the same rules. It is not slanting the table.

214 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:56:47pm

re: #210 RogueOne

I trust them a lot more than you when it comes to economic matters, Rogue. And certainly more than Grassley.

215 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:58:02pm

re: #211 Obdicut

That part isn't at all true. They are asking for, and have, different tax rules than many other industries.

OK, my turn to grill you...

Which industry specific tax rule are they asking for? Specifically.

216 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:58:09pm

re: #209 Buck

Someone talking about bringing the corporate rate down to a more reasonable level while eliminating deductions bears no resemblance to a "Flat Tax guy", who is someone who advocates a flat tax on personal income.

217 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:59:14pm

re: #205 Obdicut

And because of the money tossed at them, they were able to go chapter 11, and not chapter 7.

This was in the middle of the financial crisis, remember?

I do remember and they still could have gone through a chapter 11. They should have had to use the exact same bankruptcy rules everyone else uses. This wasn't an auto industry bailout, it was a UAW bailout at the expense of everyone else from their bond holders to the tax payers.

218 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:59:33pm

re: #215 Buck

OK, my turn to grill you...

Which industry specific tax rule are they asking for? Specifically.

Sure. I already listed one above, the deduction for foreign leases and drilling and exploration costs. In addition, they get the manufacturing deduction, and they get a deduction for the depletion of wells.

219 kingkenrod  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 1:59:49pm

re: #199 Obdicut

They only got a managed bankruptcy because of the bailout. Before that, there wasn't anyone willing to take the financial risks of guaranteeing them through the bankruptcy.

But at the time GM was asking for a cash loans. This was late 2008. In other words, the path that Romney suggested was unwise WAS truly unwise - loaning these car companies billions without restructuring would have been idiotic. And Romney did support govt backed financing and warranty guarantees IF there was restructuring.

220 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:00:00pm

re: #213 Buck

What I meant is all oil companies have the same rules, and all the software companies have the same rules. It is not slanting the table.

So you'd have no problem with changing the rules that apply to oil companies, as long as the same change applied to all oil companies?

This is what (most) Democrats would like to do, in terms of reducing the tax breaks enjoyed by those companies at the moment.

221 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:00:02pm

re: #206 Buck

That would take a lot longer. However I will try. If you penalize an industry, just because you don't like them then you risk them not doing business in your State, or even country.

As much as you seem to hate the oil industry, I am sure you know that the economy is very dependent on them. Much like the automobile industry in the topic. The oil companies are not asking for a bailout (which seems to me to be, in part, the confusion), just the same tax rules as any other industry.

And in fact you only give them your "hard earned tax dollars" when you buy something from them.

Letting them deduct legitimate business expenses from their earnings is not taking tax money from the government.

so if we don't give oil companies a giant break on their taxes, we are "penalizing" them and taking a risk they will do - what, exactly? not drill for oil where there is oil? not sell petroleum into the biggest market for it in the world? what "risk", exactly?

but if we take away subsidies for unemployed people and people who can't afford insurance, that's not "penalizing" them, or risking that they may leave the country and go someplace where making less than 50 thousand dollars a year is not treated as a moral failure?

why do giant companies need to be handled with kid gloves and given incentives, while at the same time republican politicians are screaming about how we "CAN'T AFFORD" medicare and social security?

why?

222 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:00:34pm

re: #217 RogueOne

How could they have gone through a chapter 11, Rogue? Who would have lent them the money necessary to go through it, in the middle of the credit crisis?

223 recusancy  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:01:49pm

Chuck Grassley. LOL

224 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:02:00pm

re: #209 Buck

OK, so maybe you are a flat tax guy? I think you will find a friend in Ron Paul.

Despite my being a conservative, and a bit of a libertarian, I am not a flat tax advocate.

I'm not quite sure how you took that from what I wrote.

Advocating for closing tax loopholes and ending some unneeded tax deductions (with a possible rate reduction to compensate somewhat depending on the severity of the situation) != flat tax.

225 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:02:52pm

re: #206 Buck

Letting them deduct legitimate business expenses from their earnings is not taking tax money from the government.

it's allowing them to pay less taxes than they would have paid if some congressperson hadn't rewritten the rules so that they would be allowed to pay less in taxes

therefore it's a tax break - and, explicitly for the purpose of messing with the free market fairy as you specified

can i buy the republican party a definition of the phrase "logical consistancy"?

226 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:02:55pm

re: #214 Obdicut

I trust them a lot more than you when it comes to economic matters, Rogue. And certainly more than Grassley.

I understand facts are sometimes a tough thing. Lets try it this way. If I gave you a $10k loan and you only spent 5k of it and then used the other to pay off the loan how are you coming up with the other 5k? It's not there, it's already gone. The money came from a second TARP loan that they took out that also had a lower interest rate. My memory isn't so bad that I don't remember the uproar from just a year ago.

227 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:02:56pm

re: #216 Obdicut

Someone talking about bringing the corporate rate down to a more reasonable level while eliminating deductions bears no resemblance to a "Flat Tax guy", who is someone who advocates a flat tax on personal income.

Actually that sounds like a text book definition to me.

You say flat tax is only proposed for personal income? Maybe. I have seen it proposed across the board.

228 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:03:26pm

re: #219 kingkenrod

No, according to that article he supported financing post-bankruptcy, but the point was an orderly bankruptcy. Unless he was actually implying that the managed bankruptcy should involve credit from the government, in which case he really has no objections to what went down.

229 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:03:58pm

re: #226 RogueOne

Yeah, I don't think you have your facts right, is the point.

230 wilburs  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:04:15pm

Mitt's father is rapidly spinning in his grave

231 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:05:39pm

re: #224 rhino2

Well you didn't say "ending some unneeded tax deductions " originally.

You said "do away with most of those breaks/loopholes and bring the rate down to a reasonable level".

And I didn't say you were a perfect flax tax advocate, only that what you were suggesting sounded a lot like it.

232 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:06:16pm

re: #221 engineer dog


why do giant companies need to be handled with kid gloves and given incentives, while at the same time republican politicians are screaming about how we "CAN'T AFFORD" medicare and social security?

why?

I know this is a rhetorical question, but the reason is that the Republican party, in its current incarnation, is all about defending the "haves" of society against the "have nots".

If you've got money, you're straight, you're white and a Christian (preferably a Protestant), the GOP is sticking up for you!

233 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:06:32pm

re: #227 Buck

Actually that sounds like a text book definition to me.

You say flat tax is only proposed for personal income? Maybe. I have seen it proposed across the board.

Getting your text books from Texas are you?

234 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:06:56pm

re: #222 Obdicut

How could they have gone through a chapter 11, Rogue? Who would have lent them the money necessary to go through it, in the middle of the credit crisis?

It's not about borrowing money, it's about re-organizing. Their biggest problem was their labor/legacy costs. They managed to get it down to $58/hr during the bankruptcy but it's still roughly $20/hr more than KIA and Hyundai.

235 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:07:45pm

re: #234 RogueOne

And here we have a Union basher.

I'm feelin' fight-y right now.

236 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:08:00pm

re: #233 rhino2

Reduce the tax "rate down to a more reasonable level while eliminating deductions" .

Yep that does sound like what the flat tax people are saying... (not perfectly... not word for word... )

237 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:08:58pm

re: #229 Obdicut

Yeah, I don't think you have your facts right, is the point.

I know you don't want to believe but use the logic given to you by factcheck and explain where the other money came from. Their explanation isn't possible. I know it's hard to believe but sometimes news organizations make mistakes.

238 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:10:25pm

re: #234 RogueOne

It's not about borrowing money, it's about re-organizing. Their biggest problem was their labor/legacy costs. They managed to get it down to $58/hr during the bankruptcy but it's still roughly $20/hr more than KIA and Hyundai.

Who have plants in "right-to-work-for-peanuts" states* and sell their cars to those people who are still clinging to jobs elsewhere. Race to the bottom writ large.

Note that these states are often the net beneficiaries of federal tax policy. When is Alabama going to pay back its bailout?

239 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:11:10pm

re: #231 Buck

Well you didn't say "ending some unneeded tax deductions " originally.

You said "do away with most of those breaks/loopholes and bring the rate down to a reasonable level".

You're right I didn't quote myself verbatim while paraphrasing myself.

And I didn't say you were a perfect flax tax advocate, only that what you were suggesting sounded a lot like it.

Actually what you said was: "OK, so maybe you are a flat tax guy? I think you will find a friend in Ron Paul."

See how this game can go in circles?

240 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:12:48pm

re: #239 rhino2

Actually what you said was: "OK, so maybe you are a flat tax guy? I think you will find a friend in Ron Paul."

Exactly. So maybe you are? I don't know. What you said sounded to me like you might be.

241 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:13:21pm

re: #240 Buck

Let me help you then: I'm not.

242 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:14:13pm

re: #241 rhino2

OK, you could have just answered the question. It was meant to be a harmless question.

243 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:14:42pm

re: #235 ProLifeLiberal

And here we have a Union basher.

I'm feelin' fight-y right now.

Came at me bro!//

Explain why it was essential to screw bond holders out of a couple billion and give away roughly $30 billion of taxpayer money (I say give away because we'll never get that money back) to give 1/2 of GM to the UAW. There are currently 14 million unemployed people around the country that would have like to get a deal like that.

244 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:15:26pm

Harmless question:

OK, so maybe you are a flat tax guy? I think you will find a friend in Ron Paul.

Depends on your definition of "harmless" I suppose.

Anyway, got to go now.

245 iossarian  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:15:54pm

re: #243 RogueOne

Came at me bro!//

Explain why it was essential to screw bond holders out of a couple billion and give away roughly $30 billion of taxpayer money (I say give away because we'll never get that money back) to give 1/2 of GM to the UAW. There are currently 14 million unemployed people around the country that would have like to get a deal like that.

Maybe they should have joined a union before they lost their jobs.

246 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:16:26pm

As Alkibiades once said, upon entering a room full of men engaged in lofty discourse: "Gentlemen, I am drunk!"

And how is everyone this fine day? (Well, fine if you're in Texas; I can't speak for other countries)

247 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:16:48pm

re: #234 RogueOne

It's not about borrowing money, it's about re-organizing. Their biggest problem was their labor/legacy costs. They managed to get it down to $58/hr during the bankruptcy but it's still roughly $20/hr more than KIA and Hyundai.

In order to go through chapter 11, you have to get loans, the creditors have to all agree, and the stock gets delisted. If you go into chapter 11, the court is guaranteeing the company anyway and gets to make all kinds of decisions about how it operates; it'd still have been the government in control.

248 Kragar  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:17:08pm
249 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:17:38pm

re: #242 Buck

OK, you could have just answered the question. It was meant to be a harmless question.

Yeah, because telling people they sound like Ron Paul is just asking a harmless question.

250 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:17:40pm

re: #243 RogueOne

Came at me bro!//

Explain why it was essential to screw bond holders out of a couple billion and give away roughly $30 billion of taxpayer money (I say give away because we'll never get that money back) to give 1/2 of GM to the UAW. There are currently 14 million unemployed people around the country that would have like to get a deal like that.

you've exceeded the limit on false premises

251 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:17:50pm

re: #245 iossarian

Maybe they should have joined a union before they lost their jobs.

Ha! Best way there is to guaran-damn-tee that they'll be unemployed. My work just picked up the entire production line from a union shop in Alabama - we are doing it in one fourth the space for less than half the price, and are hiring on new folk at the rate of 150 people a quarter.

252 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:18:05pm

re: #238 iossarian

Who have plants in "right-to-work-for-peanuts" states* and sell their cars to those people who are still clinging to jobs elsewhere. Race to the bottom writ large.

Note that these states are often the net beneficiaries of federal tax policy. When is Alabama going to pay back its bailout?

It's called "competition". Are there Kia/Hyundai plants down south? I know there are Toyota and Subaru plants around (Indiana has a few) but I'm not sure of the others.

253 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:18:07pm

re: #242 Buck

OK, you could have just answered the question. It was meant to be a harmless question.

I would have been able to deduce that meaning a little easier without the snide comment about how Ron Paul and I should be friends. With that you see, it appeared less harmless.

Anyway, I have answered the question, many times now, I believe my stance on it has been established.

254 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:18:41pm

re: #228 Obdicut

No, according to that article he supported financing post-bankruptcy, but the point was an orderly bankruptcy. Unless he was actually implying that the managed bankruptcy should involve credit from the government, in which case he really has no objections to what went down.

I think that's exactly what he was advocating (as well as more public investment in energy); I think Romney's problem is not that he advocated an idiotic idea, but that he was a coward and refused to take credit for advocating the right idea (and a path that was close to what Obama eventually took). There's no way he could do that in front of a conservative GOP audience.

255 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:18:58pm

re: #245 iossarian

Maybe they should have joined a union before they lost their jobs.

I think you're still missing the big picture of why GM and Chrysler went bankrupt. I'll just give you some initials and let you figure it out...UAW.

256 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:19:32pm

re: #247 Obdicut

In order to go through chapter 11, you have to get loans, the creditors have to all agree, and the stock gets delisted. If you go into chapter 11, the court is guaranteeing the company anyway and gets to make all kinds of decisions about how it operates; it'd still have been the government in control.

I don't think delisting the stock is part of Chapter 11. Companies can exit Chapter 11 and still have shares outstanding.

Nothwest Air, Chrysler the first time....

257 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:20:36pm

re: #254 KingKenrod

I think that's exactly what he was advocating (as well as more public investment in energy); I think Romney's problem is not that he advocated an idiotic idea, but that he was a coward and refused to take credit for advocating the right idea (and a path that was close to what Obama eventually took). There's no way he could do that in front of a conservative GOP audience.

Obama wasn't the only person involved in all this. Don't forget Bush started it before he left office. Including a nice $20 billion to chrysler.

258 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:21:11pm

re: #255 RogueOne

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.

259 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:21:21pm

re: #254 KingKenrod

Reading the op-ed it's hard to tell; you may certainly be right, it's just tough to parse his words completely. That may be intentional on his part. Anyway, your interpretation is perfectly valid.

260 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:21:55pm

re: #258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.

We're going to have to do this all again.

261 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:22:36pm

re: #258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.


i wish i could think that i was proving my points by declaring in advance what the future will be

262 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:23:02pm

re: #251 Guanxi88

Ha! Best way there is to guaran-damn-tee that they'll be unemployed. My work just picked up the entire production line from a union shop in Alabama - we are doing it in one fourth the space for less than half the price, and are hiring on new folk at the rate of 150 people a quarter.

In a town of 25K population, that's a big deal, my friends. Unless, that is, you DON't want rural texas Latinos to have jobs.

263 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:23:10pm

re: #256 Buck

Well, you're wrong. Chapter 11 usually involved delisting the stock. It can happen without it, but Chapter 11, in general, involves delisting the stock.

That was something you cited as somehow skirting the rules, right? The thing that actually usually happens with Chapter 11?

264 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:23:33pm

re: #261 engineer dog

i wish i could think that i was proving my points by declaring in advance what the future will be

I wasn't proving my point.

265 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:23:41pm

re: #255 RogueOne

And I'll say this. We've gone through a time of no unions/union-busting before. It was the Gilded Age. Massive poverty and income inequality. Considering the laws that I see the republicans trying to repeal and otherwise, you'll never convince me that Unions are not necessary not after the shit of the Rust Belt Teabaggers.

266 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:23:47pm

Flashbacks:

TARP Audit Questions Rush to Close Auto Dealers
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]


The report by Neil M. Barofsky, the special inspector general for the Troubled Asset Relief Program of the Treasury Department, said both carmakers needed to shut down some underperforming dealerships. But it questioned whether the cuts should have been made so quickly, particularly during a recession. The report, released on Sunday, estimated that tens of thousands of jobs were lost as a result.

267 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:25:22pm

re: #262 Guanxi88

The fact that goes on in beyond bullshit. This is classic Gilded Age tactics.

268 engineer cat  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:26:30pm

re: #264 Buck

I wasn't proving my point.

#258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.

oh?

269 albusteve  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:27:08pm

re: #268 engineer dog

#258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.

oh?

LOL!
too much

270 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:27:33pm

re: #265 ProLifeLiberal

And I'll say this. We've gone through a time of no unions/union-busting before. It was the Gilded Age. Massive poverty and income inequality. Considering the laws that I see the republicans trying to repeal and otherwise, you'll never convince me that Unions are not necessary not after the shit of the Rust Belt Teabaggers.

Of course they aren't necessary. Why, if the unions would just get out of the way, these wonderful, benevolent, sparkling unicorn companies would do the right thing about worker pay, benefits, conditions, etc. because damnit, the market just wouldn't have it any other way.

//

271 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:27:48pm

re: #265 ProLifeLiberal

And I'll say this. We've gone through a time of no unions/union-busting before. It was the Gilded Age. Massive poverty and income inequality. Considering the laws that I see the republicans trying to repeal and otherwise, you'll never convince me that Unions are not necessary not after the shit of the Rust Belt Teabaggers.

It's not about union busting, it's about what we believe is the appropriate role for government. I don't believe it's in our best interests to play one group (in this case the UAW) over another.

My shop sits in a town that once held 20 GM/Delphi factories and now there are none. The continual closings put a hurt on the community for decades but they've managed to make it through.

272 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:27:49pm

re: #267 ProLifeLiberal

The fact that goes on in beyond bullshit. This is classic Gilded Age tactics.

It's not my fault that Texas has decided it would rather have employers than unions. It is a fact of life here. And I grew up in coal country, so I know a thing or two about how important unions are and will always be.

But paying some guy $20 an hour for what is, in truth, a $10.00 an hour job is a prescription for economic failure. And besides, with no state income tax, and a very reasonable cost of living, even the guy just starting out on our line can feed, clothe, and house himself in relative comfort.

273 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:29:01pm

re: #234 RogueOne

It's not about borrowing money, it's about re-organizing. Their biggest problem was their labor/legacy costs. They managed to get it down to $58/hr during the bankruptcy but it's still roughly $20/hr more than KIA and Hyundai.

Huh. Any stats on the reduction of Management pay compensation? How much of a hit did the CEO, CFO, COO take?

274 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:29:31pm

re: #268 engineer dog

#258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.
oh?

Ya, that was not an attempt to prove my point.. It was really just saying that the proof will come in time and what it will look like if I am right.

275 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:29:41pm

re: #273 Jimmi the Grey

Huh. Any stats on the reduction of Management pay compensation? How much of a hit did the CEO, CFO, COO take?

Dunno - how much value did they bleed from the company? Because, if they added value, then they earned their compensation.

276 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:30:50pm

re: #258 Buck

I agree with you. However the proof will come in ten or so years when they are off the government crutch and still almost bankrupt.

re: #264 Buck

I wasn't proving my point.

^ This buck, this right here is why we object to your use of language. You use it wrong.

277 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:31:18pm

re: #272 Guanxi88

And when Medical issues come around, you go bankrupt. And heaven forbid your anything other than white in Texas.

Texas is no paradise. It's the backwards, theocratic asshole of the US.

re: #271 RogueOne

And yet, companies (Oil especially) get all kinds of little goodies from the government.

They already favor a side.

278 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:31:43pm

re: #273 Jimmi the Grey

Huh. Any stats on the reduction of Management pay compensation? How much of a hit did the CEO, CFO, COO take?

Sorry to jump in but I happened to have read this
[Link: www.autoblog.com...]

The United States Treasury Department, under the direction of pay czar Kenneth Feinberg (pictured) has cut the total cash compensation for the top 25 executives at both General Motors and Chrysler, among other companies who received bailout assistance under the $700 billion Troubled Asset Relief Program (TARP). On average, the overall compensation for 2010 is down 15 percent versus 2009.

GM Chairman and CEO, Ed Whitacre, has been approved for $9 million in total compensation, including $1.7 million in cash. Chief financial officer, Chris Liddell, will be getting $6.27 million, $900,000 of which is in cash. Of the remaining executives, only a small handful have been approved to receive $500,000 or more, even though GM was hoping to pay out similar sums of money to 16 of its top 25 executives.

Chrysler's top executives, on the other hand, will not be seeing any reductions in cash salaries, but none of the automaker's top 25 will be receiving more than $500,000 in cash. However, keep in mind, that Chrysler's top execs had their pay cut by 18 percent in 2009.

In addition to GM and Chrysler, Feinberg has issued pay cuts for lending companies GMAC and Chrysler Financial, as well as AIG, Inc. Next month, he plans to issue a compensation structure for the next highest-paid 75 executives at all of these companies, as well.

[Source: The Detroit News | Image: Win McNamee/Getty]

279 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:31:48pm

re: #275 Guanxi88

Dunno - how much value did they bleed from the company? Because, if they added value, then they earned their compensation.

Er, that's if they added value in excess of their competition.

The CEO and officer salaries at the Korean and Japanese companies are miniscule compared to in the US.

[Link: voices.washingtonpost.com...]

The insane pay we give to CEOs is a cultural thing, not out of actual economic need.

280 allegro  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:31:53pm

re: #275 Guanxi88

Dunno - how much value did they bleed from the company? Because, if they added value, then they earned their compensation.

No one is worth 400-500 times what their average employees receive. No one.

281 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:32:01pm

re: #270 rhino2

Of course they aren't necessary. Why, if the unions would just get out of the way, these wonderful, benevolent, sparkling unicorn companies would do the right thing about worker pay, benefits, conditions, etc. because damnit, the market just wouldn't have it any other way.

//


Like Honda, Nissan (companies who manufacture cars in the USA and are not unionized and don't need an handout)...

282 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:32:19pm

re: #267 ProLifeLiberal

The fact that goes on in beyond bullshit. This is classic Gilded Age tactics.

You think you're pissed the jobs went to Texas? Imagine if they'd gone to Tianjin. (yeah, my plant beat out the freakin' CHINESE for this production - better quality for a comparable price.)

You either compete on quality or price; that's fundamental.

283 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:32:22pm

re: #275 Guanxi88

Dunno - how much value did they bleed from the company? Because, if they added value, then they earned their compensation.

Well, they were facing bankruptcy, so I'm working under the theory of "not much if any".

284 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:34:19pm

Another flashback. TARP funds weren't supposed to be used to bailout the auto industry so they played with the meaning of "financial institution" to get around that legal roadblock:

Congressional Oversight Panel: The Use of TARP Funds in Support and Reorganization of the Domestic Automotive Industry
[Link: cop.senate.gov...]


A filing by the United States in the GM [bankruptcy] case stated that, according to the statute, a "financial institution" is "any institution...established and regulated under the laws of the United States or any State, territory, or possession of the United States...and having significant operations in the United States." On this basis, the United States concluded that "GM plainly fits within the statutory language because it is an "institution...established and regulated under the laws of the United States or any State, territory, or possession of the United States...and having significant operations in the United States."

Based on this interpretation, the term "financial institution" means any institution organized under U.S. law with operations in the United States. This interpretation does not, however, seem to account for the phrase "including, but not limited to, any bank, savings association, credit union, security broker or dealer, or insurance company." It also would seem to lend little weight to Congress‟s selection of the term "financial institution." The canons of statutory construction, which traditionally provide guidance on how statutes should be interpreted, generally frown on interpretations that render any part of the statute superfluous. The rule against superfluities assumes that legislatures, in general, mean what they say and that the inclusion of certain words or phrases is not accidental. Using that assumption, Congress must be presumed to have had a purpose in listing institutions that might typically be considered "financial" institutions—banks, credit unions, broker dealers, and insurance companies.

285 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:34:43pm

re: #281 Buck

Like Honda, Nissan (companies who manufacture cars in the USA and are not unionized and don't need an handout)...

Or Toyota, where the CEO made under a million.

Gee, that couldn't be it. It's not possible that the compensation for executives in the US is out of control. No, it's gotta be those dirty, dirty unions.


[Link: bigthreeauto.procon.org...]

286 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:34:49pm

re: #277 ProLifeLiberal

And when Medical issues come around, you go bankrupt. And heaven forbid your anything other than white in Texas.

Texas is no paradise. It's the backwards, theocratic asshole of the US.

And it's majority minority, as you well know. hell, my home county is mostly tex-mex, and Spanish is the lingua franca of the factory. being "white" (a term that is pretty much meaningless in a place where you have guys named Eduardo Mueller, whose mother was a Tejano and whose father was a Fredericksburg German) means next to nothing here.

And theocratic? It is to laugh.

287 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:34:56pm

re: #281 Buck

Like Honda, Nissan (companies who manufacture cars in the USA and are not unionized and don't need an handout)...

Aren't they also relative newcomers to our shores, without the large number of retiree pensions to pay?

288 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:36:08pm

re: #280 allegro

No one is worth 400-500 times what their average employees receive. No one.

Then persuade the stockholder, or buy enough stock to do something about it. I;m not crazy about it myself, but, like my neighbors' choice in curtains, it's really none of my business.

289 allegro  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:36:10pm

re: #279 Obdicut

The CEO and officer salaries at the Korean and Japanese companies are miniscule compared to in the US.

The insane pay we give to CEOs is a cultural thing, not out of actual economic need.

re: #281 Buck

Like Honda, Nissan (companies who manufacture cars in the USA and are not unionized and don't need an handout)...

Hmmm, I'm seeing a connection here and it isn't unions.

290 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:36:32pm

re: #286 Guanxi88

You think what Texas has done to its educational standards in the name of religion is just a laughing matter?

291 Jimmi the Grey  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:37:05pm

re: #278 Rightwingconspirator

Thx. So they took a 15% hit. Need to check if that is proportional to the hit labor took.

292 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:37:58pm

re: #291 Jimmi the Grey

Heh. Someone making nine million can absorb a 15% hit a lot more easily than someone making $15/hr can, that's for damn sure.

293 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:38:11pm

re: #228 Obdicut

No, according to that article he supported financing post-bankruptcy, but the point was an orderly bankruptcy. Unless he was actually implying that the managed bankruptcy should involve credit from the government, in which case he really has no objections to what went down.

I have heard this orderly bankruptcy argument by Republicans, and I'm not an expert on it, but as I understand it that means that creditors get screwed and in the case of the thousands of auto suppliers which constitute the majority of the auto industry, would they not be out of business very fast?

They would not have been able to get loans, pay their workers, or their own suppliers. It would have been a chain reaction of bankruptcy and default.

I think most of them would have closed shop and sold their equipment at a loss to China and we would still be wondering when the "market" would make things right.

294 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:38:23pm

re: #280 allegro

No one is worth 400-500 times what their average employees receive. No one.

Good upper management can be worth billions in profit. Bad management can result in bankruptcy and the loss of thousands of jobs and billions in investor value. A good manager who takes that responsibility seriously is worth whatever investors want to pay them.

295 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:38:31pm

re: #277 ProLifeLiberal

And when Medical issues come around, you go bankrupt. And heaven forbid your anything other than white in Texas.

Texas is no paradise. It's the backwards, theocratic asshole of the US.

re: #271 RogueOne

And yet, companies (Oil especially) get all kinds of little goodies from the government.

They already favor a side.

Are you talking about Depreciation credits?

296 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:38:41pm

re: #287 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Aren't they also relative newcomers to our shores, without the large number of retiree pensions to pay?

OK, so if I understand you right you think it is the unsustainable pensions to blame. I have never seen that before. However it might still fall under too rich a union negotiated benefit. A pension plan needs to have continued contribution and healthy investment income in order to be solvent.

297 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:39:28pm

re: #294 KingKenrod

Good upper management can be worth billions in profit. Bad management can result in bankruptcy and the loss of thousands of jobs and billions in investor value. A good manager who takes that responsibility seriously is worth whatever investors want to pay them.

One sec, let me think which type we were likely dealing with here.

Hang on, still thinking...

298 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:11pm

re: #287 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

Aren't they also relative newcomers to our shores, without the large number of retiree pensions to pay?

Good point. Last I read their per hour labor costs were roughly $55/hr but I think that's inflated due to the recession.

299 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:30pm

re: #293 Naso Tang

Without assets to pay off the creditors, yeah, they'd get screwed over. That's what I meant about having to get loans to go through Chapter 11. The court probably wouldn't have approved a plan that caused the sort of economic landslide you're very correctly pointing out.

300 freetoken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:42pm

re: #284 RogueOne

Do you know of the historical role that GMAC played in the post WWII development of GM?

301 allegro  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:43pm

re: #294 KingKenrod

Good upper management can be worth billions in profit. Bad management can result in bankruptcy and the loss of thousands of jobs and billions in investor value. A good manager who takes that responsibility seriously is worth whatever investors want to pay them.

Please 'splain to me the golden parachutes that guarantee these alleged starts of industry millions of dollars no matter how they perform?

302 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:57pm

re: #289 allegro

re: #281 Buck

Hmmm, I'm seeing a connection here and it isn't unions.

OK, so basically that bloodsucker is drinking too much, so I will drink too much?

Still kills the host....

I am not defending management, but I also will not defend the unions.

303 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:40:58pm

re: #291 Jimmi the Grey

Thx. So they took a 15% hit. Need to check if that is proportional to the hit labor took.

Good thing they didn't have to take a 15% tax hike instead. That would have hurt a lot more.//

304 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:41:30pm

re: #302 Buck

Union employees aren't bloodsuckers, Buck. They do actual work.

305 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:42:18pm

re: #304 Obdicut

and if I understand you correctly you are saying management doesn't.

306 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:42:29pm

re: #296 Buck

OK, so if I understand you right you think it is the unsustainable pensions to blame. I have never seen that before. However it might still fall under too rich a union negotiated benefit. A pension plan needs to have continued contribution and healthy investment income in order to be solvent.

How do you define "too rich"?

307 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:42:34pm

re: #293 Naso Tang

I have heard this orderly bankruptcy argument by Republicans, and I'm not an expert on it, but as I understand it that means that creditors get screwed and in the case of the thousands of auto suppliers which constitute the majority of the auto industry, would they not be out of business very fast?

They would not have been able to get loans, pay their workers, or their own suppliers. It would have been a chain reaction of bankruptcy and default.

I think most of them would have closed shop and sold their equipment at a loss to China and we would still be wondering when the "market" would make things right.

The creditors/bondholders got screwed anyway. One of those groups just happened to be an Indiana teachers union that lost millions out of their retirement fund.

308 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:43:14pm

re: #305 Buck

and if I understand you correctly you are saying management doesn't.

No he didn't actually say that - there you go again with that language problem.

Poor management clearly is a drain on a company though, yes?

309 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:43:47pm

re: #299 Obdicut

Without assets to pay off the creditors, yeah, they'd get screwed over. That's what I meant about having to get loans to go through Chapter 11. The court probably wouldn't have approved a plan that caused the sort of economic landslide you're very correctly pointing out.

But the courts would have had very little say in this if the government had not offered the loans, which the banks certainly weren't doing. Bankruptcy or out of business. What difference would it have made?

310 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:44:16pm

re: #305 Buck

and if I understand you correctly you are saying management doesn't.

No, you're not understanding me correctly. Management usually are not bloodsuckers. Some can be, when they, for example, take over a company just to sell off assets, etc. That's not the case with GM. I'm sure most people in management try to earn their pay; in many cases, their pay rate is so high compared to international rates that it's rather obvious that it's outsized.

You might learn, eventually, that your assumptions tend to be totally wrong.

311 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:45:20pm

re: #306 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

One that makes the benefit unsustainable. For example what percentage an employee contributes to the pension plan. The lower the percentage the "more rich" the benefit.

312 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:45:31pm

re: #306 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

How do you define "too rich"?

Any decisionmaker who drew executive pay at AIG or Enron

313 KingKenrod  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:45:36pm

re: #301 allegro

Please 'splain to me the golden parachutes that guarantee these alleged starts of industry millions of dollars no matter how they perform?

If a board identifies someone as uniquely talented (due to experience and industry/government contacts or a proven track record), and that's what it takes to get their services, then that's what it takes. If they don't hire the person, that person could go to a competitor. It's a risk that companies take. There aren't many people on the planet that can take on the responsibility of running a large corporation AND be successful at it.

314 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:45:54pm

re: #285 Obdicut

I think he made about 1.5 milllion
[Link: search.japantimes.co.jp...]

Nissans guy wound up a bit defensive about his 9 million, saying it's high for Japan but on par globally.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
"Investors at a shareholders’ meeting Wednesday were shocked when the company disclosed that Carlos Ghosn, chief executive at Nissan, received compensation of $9.5 million for the financial year that ended in March. A few in the crowd heckled, “Ghosn, go home!”

Mr. Ghosn was defensive. “If you compare this pay to Japanese standard, you can say it’s out of line,” he said. “But if you compare them with global standards, there is nothing out of line. In fact, we are below standard.”

"Analysts say that as Japanese companies globalize and attract more foreign managers, they will need to bring their pay in line with the rest of the world.
...
“Unless Japan raises its pay to the global standard, they’re going to lose out in the war for talent,” said Yasuharu Inoue, a personnel consultant at PricewaterhouseCoopers in Tokyo. "

315 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:46:01pm

re: #307 RogueOne

The creditors/bondholders got screwed anyway. One of those groups just happened to be an Indiana teachers union that lost millions out of their retirement fund.

Bond holders or stock holders yes, temporarily, but the stock have come back strong have they not? Creditors still had their bills paid did they not?

316 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:46:05pm

re: #309 Naso Tang

But the courts would have had very little say in this if the government had not offered the loans, which the banks certainly weren't doing. Bankruptcy or out of business. What difference would it have made?

I was just pointing out that in some mythical chapter 11 bankruptcy for GM where they somehow are allowed to proceed without loans, all the creditors and parts guys they owe money to do get screwed because they don't actually have the assets to pay for it. And that a court-- which has to approve chapter 11-- would almost certainly not have approved it under those circumstances.

317 Buck  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:46:14pm

re: #310 Obdicut

You might learn, eventually, that your assumptions tend to be totally wrong.

That is why I ask questions.

318 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:47:17pm

re: #313 KingKenrod

There aren't many people on the planet that can take on the responsibility of running a large corporation AND be successful at it.

But they get paid an order of magnitude more in the US than they do internationally. There really is a culture here of paying the corporate officers very large compensation packages; it's been growing and growing for decades.

319 Eclectic Infidel  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:47:22pm

re: #17 Alouette

GM and Chrysler have repaid their government loans IN FULL

Why let facts like that get in the way of posturing for the fan base, right?

320 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:48:13pm

re: #286 Guanxi88

True, it is minority majority. However, how much power do the minorities have? Example: Look at the state house. How many are Hispanic, Black, etc.

Whites may no longer be in the majority, but they have still have most of the power.

321 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:48:13pm

re: #317 Buck

That is why I ask questions.

Of course it is, Buck. That's why you claim to only ask questions while simultaneously insulting someone by telling them they're like Ron Paul. You're just here to learn.

Hey, you never actually cited what rule got 'skirted'-- you thought it was about being delisted, right? Which turns out to actually be the norm in chapter 11?

322 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:48:14pm

did anyone happen to see the HBO special "Too Big to Fail"?

323 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:48:48pm

re: #290 Obdicut

You think what Texas has done to its educational standards in the name of religion is just a laughing matter?

All the Californians and New Yorkers and Rust-Belters moving here to find work don't seem to have a problem with it. Frankly, I'd be pleased if you could continue to dissuade them from coming, as I'd just as soon Texas jobs go to Texans.

And, for the record, Texas has an excellent educational system, as you know perfectly well, as do the thousands who come here from around the world to learn the hard sciences. When gabby Giffords was treated in Houston, it wasn't by faith-healers, you benighted bigot.

324 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:49:09pm

re: #300 freetoken

Do you know of the historical role that GMAC played in the post WWII development of GM?

GMAC is a separate corporation and lending institution. They were eligible for a bailout but their sister company wasn't. The COP said they played fast and loose with the rules. Reason put the question best:


Does the president have to follow the law, even when he really, really wants to so something that happens to be illegal? We know Bush's answer, and Obama's. Congress is not interested in revisting this issue, because it got the bailout that most members wanted without having to take responsibility for it. As for the judicial branch, "the Panel is not aware of any court before which the issue is currently pending and therefore it may never be resolved."

325 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:49:12pm

re: #316 Obdicut

OK, speaking mythically then, like a Republican presidential candidate.

326 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:49:42pm

re: #323 Guanxi88

Where on earth do you get 'bigot' from, dude?

Calm the hell down.

327 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:50:12pm

re: #300 freetoken

Do you know of the historical role that GMAC played in the post WWII development of GM?

BTW, GM and GMAC funded most of the buildings in this town. If not for them and the Church of God there wouldn't be a town.

328 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:51:41pm

re: #311 Buck

One that makes the benefit unsustainable. For example what percentage an employee contributes to the pension plan. The lower the percentage the "more rich" the benefit.

So if it was sustainable yesterday, but unsustainable today, then it's suddenly "too rich"?

329 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:51:49pm

re: #315 Naso Tang

Bond holders or stock holders yes, temporarily, but the stock have come back strong have they not? Creditors still had their bills paid did they not?

No to all 3. The original stock is worthless paper. The new stock is currently at $28 and it will have to hit $53 in order for us to break even. The creditors and bond holders all got pushed back to the end of the line.

330 rhino2  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:52:49pm

re: #305 Buck

and if I understand you correctly you are saying management doesn't.

re: #317 Buck

That is why I ask questions.

Questions end with a question mark.

Asinine assumptions about inferred meaning in something someone else didn't say don't have to though.

(Sorry to keep harping on that language thing but, you know.)

331 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:54:06pm

re: #326 Obdicut

He's one of those "Don't Mess with Texas" types, I'm guessing.

He's conveniently leaving out the part about the Houston mayor being a Lesbian. She wouldn't be accepted elsewhere in the state.

332 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:54:18pm

re: #328 Targetpractice, Worst of Both Worlds

So if it was sustainable yesterday, but unsustainable today, then it's suddenly "too rich"?

Not to mention that pensions are often given in lieu of pay raises, and so represent a promise.

333 mph  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:54:22pm

I am in 100% in agreement with Romney on this specific issue and I don't see the humor in it.

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Shares of G.M. rose 22 cents on Tuesday, to $28.78, compared with the initial public offering price of $33 in November. To break even, the Treasury needs to sell its remaining shares at an average price of about $53.

Not gonna happen, and even if it did, the damage is done....

Bankruptcy proceedings were needed to fix the structural problems inherent in GM and Chrysler's models. This bailout forestalled the day of reckoning for these companies and misaligned billions in desperately needed capital. The protectionist "Buy American" mentality behind the auto bailout has created a situation that is long-term very damaging to the US economy...

Our recession/recovery has been prolonged by the mis-allocation of so many billions of dollars worth of capital that was forever pissed away in "recovery" efforts.

This is no laughing matter.

334 RogueOne  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:54:33pm

I have to run. My wife got home an hour ago and wants to know why I haven't come out to visit. My excuse of arguing the auto bailout isn't flying. Enjoy the night people.

335 Targetpractice  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:55:11pm

re: #332 Obdicut

Not to mention that pensions are often given in lieu of pay raises, and so represent a promise.

Yep, often promises made by the same execs who get those huge bonuses and golden parachutes. Execs who gamble on their company's good fortune continuing, and then blaming the workers when it doesn't.

336 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:55:11pm

re: #333 mph

GM went through a bankruptcy.

337 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:59:43pm

re: #313 KingKenrod

There aren't many people on the planet that can take on the responsibility of running a large corporation ANDnot be successful at it and still get paid as if they were successful at it.

FTFY.

338 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 2:59:55pm

re: #333 mph

Yes, because free trade has worked so well for the US.

Go look at the Rust Belt and Southern Mexico to see the results of Free Trade. I want our nation to have so level of self-sufficiency. And you're incredibly naive if you think that Free Trade is going to be all roses and flowers. There have been very negative consequences.

339 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:01:25pm
340 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:12:54pm

re: #323 Guanxi88

Ya got no cause to call Obdi a bigot. That sucks dude.

341 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:15:12pm

re: #323 Guanxi88

And BTW back once upon a time Texas was in big trouble as oil fell, oil jobs disappeared and Texans were welcomed to California to get jobs and new lives.

342 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:15:54pm

re: #197 rhino2

I would like to know why we need so many tax breaks, SPECIAL or not. I heard Jon Stewart say last week that we have one of the highest actual corporate tax rates and yet one of the lowest effective corporate tax rates, due to all the deductions and loopholes present within our system. I can't remember if he sourced that or not, and I'm at work so can't spend the time to try and source it myself right now.

But if true, why not do away with most of those breaks/loopholes and bring the rate down to a reasonable level? Would that put too many accountants out of work? I'm no expert on these issues admittedly, so maybe I'm talking out of my ass, but that seems like a good goal to work towards.

I think it would be hilarious if Obama proposed a flat 15% corporate tax rate on all entities making more than (?) 50 million bucks a year. No breaks, no "special" deductions, nada. Que the wailing and gnashing of millions of accountant, attorney, and lobbyist teeth, and lots of hilarious commentary from the usual suspects who bitch about how "exorbitant" US corporate taxes are..."highest in the industrialized world!!! drives companies overseas!!!" etc. It would be fun to hear these guys trying to oppose a flat 15% corporate tax rate with zero loopholes. Of course they would, since no mega corporation actually pays 15% corporate taxes.

343 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:16:21pm

re: #340 Rightwingconspirator

Ya got no cause to call Obdi a bigot. That sucks dude.

He has a prejudice against the state that has succeeded where his former home state (cali) and his current home state (NY) have failed. The prejudice is groundless, reflexive, and unquestioning. the definition of bigotry.

344 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:17:37pm

re: #343 Guanxi88

What prejudice am I displaying against Texas, exactly?

I'm pointing out they've compromised educational standards in the name of religion.

This is something that's true. It's not a prejudiced statement.

345 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:17:59pm

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

And BTW back once upon a time Texas was in big trouble as oil fell, oil jobs disappeared and Texans were welcomed to California to get jobs and new lives.

Yeah, damn that cheap oil! Good news is, lotsa folk have decided that they'd just as soon have oil and jobs here in Texas, whereas other states that could produce oil have decided they'd just as soon have oil and unemployment, so everyone's happy now, I suppose.

346 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:18:39pm

re: #342 funky chicken

I think it would be hilarious if Obama proposed a flat 15% corporate tax rate on all entities making more than (?) 50 million bucks a year. No breaks, no "special" deductions, nada. Que the wailing and gnashing of millions of accountant, attorney, and lobbyist teeth, and lots of hilarious commentary from the usual suspects who bitch about how "exorbitant" US corporate taxes are..."highest in the industrialized world!!! drives companies overseas!!!" etc. It would be fun to hear these guys trying to oppose a flat 15% corporate tax rate with zero loopholes. Of course they would, since no mega corporation actually pays 15% corporate taxes.

Actually, when you get down to it, whatever do pay in taxes is just passed through as an added cost to you and me.

347 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:19:42pm

re: #344 Obdicut

What prejudice am I displaying against Texas, exactly?

I'm pointing out they've compromised educational standards in the name of religion.

This is something that's true. It's not a prejudiced statement.

And is there any evidence, other than your bare assertion, backed by a few cherry-picked incidents involving pandering to a few local constituencies, to suggest that Texas is failing where, for example, California is succeeding, in terms of education?

I'd argue that the textbook wars are, and have ever been, what is so commonly known as a non-troversy. A little something to fuel the two minutes' hate, and little more.

348 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:19:47pm

re: #346 Capitalist Tool

That's not true. Corporations charge what the market will bear, not what their production costs + X are.

Blanket raises in production prices will eventually push the market price higher, but it's not as simple as a pass-down.

349 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:20:42pm

re: #347 Guanxi88

The two minute hate? Seriously?

Didja see [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's all just 2 minute hate to you, a total nontroversy?

350 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:21:57pm

re: #348 Obdicut

That's not true. Corporations charge what the market will bear, not what their production costs + X are.

Blanket raises in production prices will eventually push the market price higher, but it's not as simple as a pass-down.


That's not true?
So no corporate taxes are included in the price of a finished product?

351 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:22:07pm

I'm waitingre: #349 Obdicut

The two minute hate? Seriously?

Didja see [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

That's all just 2 minute hate to you, a total nontroversy?

Given the high rates of economic growth here, the insanely high numbers of high-tech and bio-science start-ups, the fact that California's high-tech corridor has now more or less migrated here en masse, yes, a nontroversy.

But just as you wish. Bask in the glow of your superiority, and be content therewith. No need to let success spoil it for you

352 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:23:43pm

And I remain bemused by the lack of commentary about the "miracle of Ireland" supposedly brought about by their low, low corporate tax rate. I remember hearing the Limbaugh crowd flapping jaws about that back in 2008...and now?

[Link: www.usatoday.com...]

353 allegro  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:23:58pm

re: #347 Guanxi88

I'd argue that the textbook wars are, and have ever been, what is so commonly known as a non-troversy. A little something to fuel the two minutes' hate, and little more.

Downding for this seriously stupid comment.

354 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:23:58pm

re: #351 Guanxi88

I'm presuming 'more or less' is the key weasel-term here.

~~

I know people who have worked tech in texas, you really don't want to know what they usually think, lol ><

355 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:24:02pm

re: #351 Guanxi88

I didn't make any sort of comparative argument. You did.

Why on earth you're talking about economic growth when I'm talking about what's being done to the science standards (the effects of which, you know, wouldn't show up for awhile) I have no idea.

Why you called me a bigot for observing something true-- even if you feel it's a 'nontroversy' I have even less idea.

You're swinging wildly. It's kinda weird. Especially the 'two-minute hate' part. That's a pretty shitty accusation to make.

356 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:27:24pm

re: #355 Obdicut

I didn't make any sort of comparative argument. You did.

Why on earth you're talking about economic growth when I'm talking about what's being done to the science standards (the effects of which, you know, wouldn't show up for awhile) I have no idea.

Why you called me a bigot for observing something true-- even if you feel it's a 'nontroversy' I have even less idea.

You're swinging wildly. It's kinda weird. Especially the 'two-minute hate' part. That's a pretty shitty accusation to make.

Nothing stings so much as rebuke that hits its mark. I understand that many people are very hurt and offended when their reflexive prejudices against a given state or people are challenged, but that's life.

Texas works; Texans work. If it were so lousy here, then why can't we keep people from coming here from other states with allegedly superior educational systems?

And if you dig down, push aside the headlines and the events of the day of publication, has there been any demonstrable evidence of a lowering of standards here? Nope, not a bit of it.

357 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:28:48pm

re: #326 Obdicut

Where on earth do you get 'bigot' from, dude?

Calm the hell down.

He's visiting from hotair.com

358 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:29:35pm

re: #356 Guanxi88

Ridiculous. Yes, there has not only been evidence, there's been proof that the educational standards of Texas are being lowered, by religious fanatics and bigots. And your attempt to minimize it is absurd.

359 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:30:09pm

re: #343 Guanxi88

He has a prejudice against the state that has succeeded where his former home state (cali) and his current home state (NY) have failed. The prejudice is groundless, reflexive, and unquestioning. the definition of bigotry.

Your bigotry accusation stands unfounded and unfair. Obdi and I disagree often enough I can assert his arguments are in every instance based on facts or fair assessments, not bigotry at all. Even when I think he is wrong I get his thinking.

360 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:31:45pm

re: #351 Guanxi88

And how much of that is because of tax breaks that most states cannot afford, along with the fact that when these (presumably temporary) breaks end, many of them will migrate again.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Texas also had a massive deficit, and is going to screw the poor to fix it. In addition, much of California's problem is the fact that they cannot raise or modify taxes because of a dumb Proposition in the past, combine with too little local control of finances.

Your "Don't Mess With Texas"routine is ticking me off. Don't go bitching to the Federal Government when another Ike or Carla rips through. I wouldn't want to mess with Texas.

361 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:32:26pm

I shouldn't be surprised, though. This is how right wingers invariably try to deflect attention away from the kinds of things the State Board of Education is pulling in Texas -- it's insignificant, don't worry, it's exaggerated, just roll over and go back to sleep.

362 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:36:11pm

re: #361 Charles

We've discussed this before. I was a grad student in biochem in KS when the creationists started making trouble there. It was the early 1990s. It took 15 years, but Kansans finally got sick of it all and elected a democrat as governor. You know, home of Alf Landon, no democrat governor for over 60 years. That Kansas. So if the GOP wants to pretend that normal people aren't turned off by these games, well, good for them.

363 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:37:55pm

re: #356 Guanxi88


And if you dig down, push aside the headlines and the events of the day of publication, has there been any demonstrable evidence of a lowering of standards here? Nope, not a bit of it.


I didn't have to dig down very far to find this:

Why Does Texas Rank Last In High School Diplomas?

364 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:39:25pm

re: #362 funky chicken

again, demographic shift.

365 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:42:14pm

re: #364 windsagio

Nope, I'd argue that normal folks in Kansas got tired of having people repeatedly attempting to ban the teaching of evolution in biology classrooms.

366 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:43:13pm

re: #350 Capitalist Tool

That's not true?
So no corporate taxes are included in the price of a finished product?

No. Not in any accounting I've ever seen. If you did it would be a never ending cost spiral, upwards, because every estimated tax added to the cost would raise the estimated end tax and then the recursive calculation starts again.

Turtles all the way up.

367 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:45:17pm

BTW, I keep hearing about the great Texas job performance, but see no breakdown.

They couldn't be benefiting from the surge in oil prices, could they, at the expense of all the rest of us?

368 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:46:58pm

re: #367 Naso Tang

At the moment, they're beating the national unemployment rate by 1%.

New York is too, so I'm not sure what this whole state-vs-state bullshit is about.

369 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:48:54pm

re: #363 BongCrodny

I didn't have to dig down very far to find this:

Why Does Texas Rank Last In High School Diplomas?

I'll answer it for you in two words: "The Border".

370 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:49:49pm

re: #368 Obdicut

At the moment, they're beating the national unemployment rate by 1%.

New York is too, so I'm not sure what this whole state-vs-state bullshit is about.

And the annual rate of population migration to NY state is what, exactly, versus that to Texas? Take a look at the census - people are moving here, to work.

371 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:52:11pm

re: #361 Charles

I shouldn't be surprised, though. This is how right wingers invariably try to deflect attention away from the kinds of things the State Board of Education is pulling in Texas -- it's insignificant, don't worry, it's exaggerated, just roll over and go back to sleep.

You probably don't know - but the State Board of Education is not the sole State of Texas Educational entity, nor even the primary one. The THECB play a major role in state educational policy, and have been key to the success of a state that has seen massive non-native population growth over the years.

A tangle of bureaucracies, even in the Lone Star State.

372 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:52:47pm

re: #370 Guanxi88

That's nice.

You somehow have gotten the impression we're doing a state-against-state content. We're not.

What happened is that i pointed out-- correctly-- that Texas is bastardizing, watering down, and tainting its educational standards, because of religion.

You took such offense to this that you called me a bigot, accused those-- included, I'd point out, Charles-- who are reporting on it of engaging in a 'two-minute hate', and are not talking, for some reason apparent only to yourself, about economics.

373 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:52:59pm

re: #367 Naso Tang

BTW, I keep hearing about the great Texas job performance, but see no breakdown.

They couldn't be benefiting from the surge in oil prices, could they, at the expense of all the rest of us?

Oil and gas are part of it, but manufacturing is booming down here. Seems factories like to be in places with low taxes, cheap energy, and limited regulations. Go figure.

374 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:53:18pm

re: #356 Guanxi88


And if you dig down, push aside the headlines and the events of the day of publication, has there been any demonstrable evidence of a lowering of standards here? Nope, not a bit of it.

The effects of introducing religious ignorance into school education is not something you see immediately (except for those smart enough and in a position to move to another state). The effects will become apparent when those graduates start running the state in more than just the governorship.

I suspect I will be dead, so I won't be able to prove you wrong.

375 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:54:05pm

re: #373 Guanxi88

Oil and gas are part of it, but manufacturing is booming down here. Seems factories like to be in places with low taxes, cheap energy, and limited regulations. Go figure.

Manufacturing for the oil industry?

376 Claire  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:54:54pm

re: #342 funky chicken

I was looking up how the big 3 compare to Japanese auto companies and the profitable car companies pay around 30% of their income before taxes. Honda pays like $7 billion in federal taxes on $21 billion income. How is that a zero tax rate?

377 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:54:56pm

re: #372 Obdicut

That's nice.

You somehow have gotten the impression we're doing a state-against-state content. We're not.

What happened is that i pointed out-- correctly-- that Texas is bastardizing, watering down, and tainting its educational standards, because of religion.

You took such offense to this that you called me a bigot, accused those-- included, I'd point out, Charles-- who are reporting on it of engaging in a 'two-minute hate', and are not talking, for some reason apparent only to yourself, about economics.

Oh, so the topic in an otherwise economically-oriented thread, about demonstrably economic matters, is in fact educational policy? Explain the theory of hermeneutics underlying that.

And while you're at it, yes, every time the success of Texas is mentioned, the inevitable response is "boogah! boogah! creationism"

The dogs bark, and the caravan moves on.

378 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:55:39pm

re: #375 Naso Tang

Manufacturing for the oil industry?

I'm in electronics, my neighbors are building diesel engines for Caterpillar, and they make semiconductors up in Austin and Round Rock. Little bit of everything

379 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:55:40pm

re: #373 Guanxi88

Oil and gas are part of it, but manufacturing is booming down here. Seems factories like to be in places with low taxes, cheap energy, and limited regulations. Go figure.

and to add, booming? You call 8% unemployment booming?

380 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:56:14pm

re: #379 Naso Tang

and to add, booming? You call 8% unemployment booming?

Makes the President positively smile with glee even at 9%, so I'll take 8 and be happy.

381 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 3:59:19pm

re: #360 ProLifeLiberal

We've managed to endure the President's spite with our wildfires quite nicely, thank you.

Will the other states be so kind, then, as to return Texas' overpayment (in terms of services received) to the treasury?

382 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:01:02pm

re: #377 Guanxi88

Oh, so the topic in an otherwise economically-oriented thread, about demonstrably economic matters, is in fact educational policy?

No. The specific thread in this conversation was about you laughing at the idea of theocracy-- despite the fact that Texas is weakening and corrupting educational standards in the name of religion.

And while you're at it, yes, every time the success of Texas is mentioned, the inevitable response is "boogah! boogah! creationism"

Texas has some economic success. They also have gigantic problems that are becoming worse, and they're borrowing money from the feds to keep the state government going. Those low-taxes, unfortunately, aren't providing them with the revenue that they need.

This doesn't put them in a unique position. Many other states are grappling with revenue problems.

Pointing out the problems with creationism-- and many many other parts of the school curriculum; if you're under the impression it's just about creationism please read some of Charles's links above-- is not a 'boogah boogah', it's pointing out a real, actual problem that will only get worse with time, as the effects of that corrupted education are felt.

Your accusations of bigotry, of Charles's posts on the subject being two minute hates, are extremist and bizarre.


The dogs bark, and the caravan moves on.

383 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:01:12pm

re: #380 Guanxi88

Makes the President positively smile with glee even at 9%, so I'll take 8 and be happy.

Perhaps, but I hear South (or north?) Dakota is at 6% or less, and Florida has a Republican governor and zero taxes, low regulations, and a great tourist industry, and high unemployment.

I think that this touting of results due to supposed policies is smoke and mirrors. There are many factors at play and there will always be some differences, but until you get to 5% when the rest of the country averages 9%, you are not booming.

384 Achilles Tang  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:03:14pm

moving up.

385 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:03:34pm

Y'all lay off Texas.
They'll have a real football team again, one day, you just watch.
/

386 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:03:47pm

I used to to try to argue with people who pulled this kind of crap. Now I know it's pointless, because they're not being honest in the first place, so argument isn't going to affect anything.

387 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:04:00pm

re: #383 Naso Tang

Perhaps, but I hear South (or north?) Dakota is at 6% or less, and Florida has a Republican governor and zero taxes, low regulations, and a great tourist industry, and high unemployment.

I think that this touting of results due to supposed policies is smoke and mirrors. There are many factors at play and there will always be some differences, but until you get to 5% when the rest of the country averages 9%, you are not booming.

Policy plays a part, of course. The Dakotas have no population growth (in fact, I think they're losing people, whereas Texas' population continues to grow) so it's an apples to applejacks comparison, there.

Florida stinks out loud, in terms of resources they can tap. No one seems to want to go and get the oil and gas there, so they're kinda stuck.

And in terms of booming - if we could somehow adjust for the folk moving here from other states to accept work here, you'd find the unemployment rate is far lower.

And how is manufacturing in the other states, these days?

388 windsagio  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:05:07pm

re: #387 Guanxi88

dude, why are you so vested here in defending Texas? It's kind of weird.

389 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:06:16pm

Damn. The Spite of Obama causes fires?

And damn, Honda pays its corporate taxes. How sad that so many American companies don't follow suit. Show me anywhere that I said Honda paid zero taxes.

Sadly, Honda's responsible taxpaying behavior is not followed by GE and the oil companies.

So responsible companies like Honda would benefit from a 15% corporate tax rate, and larger scofflaws like GE would pay more. Win/win, right Claire?

390 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:07:02pm

re: #382 Obdicut

No. The specific thread in this conversation was about you laughing at the idea of theocracy-- despite the fact that Texas is weakening and corrupting educational standards in the name of religion.

Texas has some economic success. They also have gigantic problems that are becoming worse, and they're borrowing money from the feds to keep the state government going. Those low-taxes, unfortunately, aren't providing them with the revenue that they need.

This doesn't put them in a unique position. Many other states are grappling with revenue problems.

Pointing out the problems with creationism-- and many many other parts of the school curriculum; if you're under the impression it's just about creationism please read some of Charles's links above-- is not a 'boogah boogah', it's pointing out a real, actual problem that will only get worse with time, as the effects of that corrupted education are felt.

Your accusations of bigotry, of Charles's posts on the subject being two minute hates, are extremist and bizarre.

The dogs bark, and the caravan moves on.

Obdi - were your skin any thinner, you'd hold nano-membrane patents.

And I accused charles of a two-minute hate, did I? Perhaps there's a clinical terms for it, but what would you call paranoia that assumes someone is talking about someone else?

And again - how is it that the economic success of Texas somehow is diminished or negated by alleged deficiencies in the thinking of some members of a state educational bureaucracy? The two are unrelated.

But enough about all that unpleasantness. Tell me, with its superior public services, progressive educational system, and all the advantages that come with these and the other blessings bestowed upon it, how's, say, California these days?

391 wrenchwench  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:07:20pm

re: #388 windsagio

dude, why are you so vested here in defending Texas? It's kind of weird.

Here's clue #1.

392 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:08:19pm

re: #388 windsagio

dude, why are you so vested here in defending Texas? It's kind of weird.

I live here, pay taxes here (sales and property taxes), and am raising my family here. So, yeah, I'm kinda invested here.

And I moved here from Massachusetts. I knew what I was leaving and knew where I was moving, and never hesitated for a moment. Thousands of others do the same every year.

393 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:10:26pm

re: #389 funky chicken

Damn. The Spite of Obama causes fires?

/blockquote>

We had an area the size of Rhode island on fire, and His Excellency could not condescend even to discuss the matter with the evil Theocrat Perry, though he was in town for a proggie fundraiser. We had to do it on our own, with help from our friendly neighbors in other states.

394 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:11:00pm

re: #390 Guanxi88

And I accused charles of a two-minute hate, did I?

Yep.


I'd argue that the textbook wars are, and have ever been, what is so commonly known as a non-troversy. A little something to fuel the two minutes' hate, and little more.

Charles has posted extensively on the subject-- he linked you to them above.

So, if you're saying that this is a nontroversy to fuel the two minutes hate, then you are, indeed, saying that he is fueling two-minute hates.


But enough about all that unpleasantness. Tell me, with its superior public services, progressive educational system, and all the advantages that come with these and the other blessings bestowed upon it, how's, say, California these days?

I'm not making any claims to Californian superiority. I wasn't making a comparative argument at all, or an economic one. So why on earth are you pretending that I am?

California is in serious trouble, but, as usual, the problems of California aren't actually simple. The main problem is that the way the budget is constructed makes spending much easier than taxation, and makes cutting spending hard because a minority can block the budget from passing.

395 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:12:32pm

re: #392 Guanxi88

I lived in MA off and on for about 6 years in the 70's. I loved riding my motorcycle around those twisty roads, but they sure were rough.
I could always tell when I would cross over into New Hampshire on some unknown highway up around Groton, or wherever- all of a sudden, the roads were smooth.
Massachusetts had one of the highest tax rates and New Hampshire one of the lowest, yet NH had far better roads.

396 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:13:41pm

re: #394 Obdicut

So, Cali is spending too much, or taxing too little?

See, here in Texas, we try not to spend too much. Now, I know that's kinda backwards, and we sure as Hell do appreciate all yall edumacated types coming here, hats in hand, to find work and help us to mend our broken ways.

(Pauses to spit tobacco juice by the fence post)

Much obliged for all yer help, and all that.

397 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:14:33pm

re: #395 Capitalist Tool

NH started filling up with Massholes in the 90's - it's just a big suburb now, so I hear. Damned shame

398 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:15:31pm

re: #396 Guanxi88

So, Cali is spending too much, or taxing too little?

See, here in Texas, we try not to spend too much. Now, I know that's kinda backwards, and we sure as Hell do appreciate all yall edumacated types coming here, hats in hand, to find work and help us to mend our broken ways.

(Pauses to spit tobacco juice by the fence post)

Much obliged for all yer help, and all that.

You got Federal aid. Next time don't piss on the donor:

[Link: www.firerescue1.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]

399 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:15:51pm

Hey, I was born in TX, and I'm sitting in a hotel room in TX right now. It's way too damn hot here, but otherwise it's fine. And the overreaching by the social conservative/creationist wing will soon annoy enough people here that democrats and/or sane republicans will be elected to major political offices here, just like in other places. But Rick Perry sycophants and other "small government, less regulation" types should be concerned by articles like this one:

Combine ranchers losing trees to acid rain with Texas vs EPA and folks getting sick of creationists monkeying with public schools, and you will probably see TX become less of a "red state" lock.

400 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:15:52pm

re: #396 Guanxi88

So, Cali is spending too much, or taxing too little?

Both.


See, here in Texas, we try not to spend too much.

But you do. You've got a deficit. You know that, right?

Now, I know that's kinda backwards, and we sure as Hell do appreciate all yall edumacated types coming here, hats in hand, to find work and help us to mend our broken ways.

The problem I was pointing out was the harm to educational standards. It has nothing to do with spending and taxation. I have no clue why you keep thinking it does, other than that you probably can't actually defend the damage done to the educational standards and would prefer to focus elsewhere.

Just guessing, of course. Maybe you actually don't think that the fucking up of the educational system to serve a religious agenda is a problem.

401 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:17:38pm

re: #398 Decatur Deb

You got Federal aid. Next time don't piss on the donor:

[Link: www.firerescue1.com...]

[Link: www.google.com...]

Who's pissing on the donor? We paid for the aid, did we not? It's not like were Greece on the Pacific, with nothing paid in.

And the BATF started the damned fire in the first place, so it's almost a sort of "you break it, you bought it" kinda deal.

402 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:20:13pm
But enough about all that unpleasantness. Tell me, with its superior public services, progressive educational system, and all the advantages that come with these and the other blessings bestowed upon it, how's, say, California these days?


I know Obdi only through this board, and I don't think he's a bigot.

You, on the other hand, are a first class snob.

403 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:21:40pm

re: #400 Obdicut

Both.

But you do. You've got a deficit. You know that, right?

The problem I was pointing out was the harm to educational standards. It has nothing to do with spending and taxation. I have no clue why you keep thinking it does, other than that you probably can't actually defend the damage done to the educational standards and would prefer to focus elsewhere.

Just guessing, of course. Maybe you actually don't think that the fucking up of the educational system to serve a religious agenda is a problem.

Yes, Texas has a deficit. The big debate now is whether we tap our Rainy Day fund to cover it. See, we've got money we don't spend - a novel concept, and one that should be more widely adopted.

The whole theocratic boogeyman arguments sound impressive, but the fact is, they hold no water here, because no one is going to do anything to screw up what works, and Texas, in its current form, works.

And I'd repeat my suggestion to you, as one who lives here, the East Texas bible-belters are pandered to, but they hold precious little clout here. Kiko Canseco (Republican, San Antonio) talks the talk of a holy-roller, and votes Chamber of Commerce every time.

If you can't understand the necessity of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas to keep the ballots the way you want them, then you're terribly naive, and you, sir, are many things, but naive is not one of them.

404 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:21:57pm

re: #402 BongCrodny

I know Obdi only through this board, and I don't think he's a bigot.

You, on the other hand, are a first class snob.

Best kind to be.

405 Guanxi88  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:23:52pm

Well, enough fun for the nonce. I'm off to handle snakes, oppress the poor and the minorities (which here would be WASPS), and pollute Gaia, in the finest Texas traditions.

406 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:25:07pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

The whole theocratic boogeyman arguments sound impressive, but the fact is, they hold no water here, because no one is going to do anything to screw up what works, and Texas, in its current form, works.

Do you honestly think this is an argument? You're just saying "It'll be fine". You're not giving any reason why. Just asserting it.


And I'd repeat my suggestion to you, as one who lives here, the East Texas bible-belters are pandered to, but they hold precious little clout here.

They hold enough clout to get educational standards changed.

That's a lot of clout.


If you can't understand the necessity of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas to keep the ballots the way you want them, then you're terribly naive, and you, sir, are many things, but naive is not one of them.

I have no idea what you're talking about, here. The school board had to trash educational standards so that people would vote GOP?

Your accusation that I'm a bigot, and accusations of superiority, while congratulating yourself and Texas on being awesomer than others, is really pathetic hypocrisy.

407 Obdicut  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:26:51pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

Quico Conseco is a social conservative voter. He says he is, and he really is.

[Link: www.ontheissues.org...]

408 Charles Johnson  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:29:13pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

...the East Texas bible-belters are pandered to, but they hold precious little clout here.

This is complete and utter bullshit. Who do you think you're fooling?

The governor of Texas is holding a massive prayer rally with the participation of every religious right hate group in America.

Rick Perry's 'Prayer Rally' - Sponsored by Insane, Fanatical Bigots.

But just roll over and go back to sleep, everyone. They have no clout whatsoever.

Pure D bullshit.

409 Interesting Times  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:30:30pm

re: #405 Guanxi88

Come to think of it, given your ridiculously naive dismissals of the darker aspects of human nature (like implying there's no such thing as culture that supports rape!), I shouldn't be surprised at your head-in-the-sand (and that's putting it politely) attitude here.

Were you aware that Perry cut funding for fire-fighting services, instead deciding to combat the wildfires by holding a "day of prayer?" And yet you have the nerve to criticize Obama's handling of the issue?

Holy denial of reality in all its forms, dude.

410 Claire  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:32:42pm

re: #389 funky chicken

So responsible companies like Honda would benefit from a 15% corporate tax rate, and larger scofflaws like GE would pay more. Win/win, right Claire?

It probably would be a win/win Funcky Chicken, because you are actually arguing for a lower corporate tax rate of 15%. The 35% current rate is very high relative to other countries, but a lot of corps don't end up paying that actual rate because they offshore so much income to avoid that rate. So if a flat 15% were instituted, I would guess much more manufacturing would be repatriated back to the US, or there'd be less incentive to offshore it in the first place. Win/win!

411 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:38:28pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

If you can't understand the necessity of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas to keep the ballots the way you want them, then you're terribly naive, and you, sir, are many things, but naive is not one of them.


Teaching creationism in public schools is your idea of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas?

Not where I'd be willing to set my boob bait parameters, but YMMV.

412 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:42:38pm

re: #411 BongCrodny

Teaching creationism in public schools is your idea of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas?

Not where I'd be willing to set my boob bait parameters, but YMMV.

All right! Haven't seen one in a while, is this the boob thread?

413 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:44:25pm

re: #412 Capitalist Tool

All right! Haven't seen one in a while, is this the boob thread?

That's totally without foundation.

414 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:46:27pm

re: #413 Decatur Deb

That's totally without foundation.

That's the spirit!

415 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:47:46pm

re: #414 Capitalist Tool

That's the spirit!

I'll stop, cross my heart.

416 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:51:43pm

re: #403 Guanxi88

Yes, Texas has a deficit. The big debate now is whether we tap our Rainy Day fund to cover it. See, we've got money we don't spend - a novel concept, and one that should be more widely adopted.

The whole theocratic boogeyman arguments sound impressive, but the fact is, they hold no water here, because no one is going to do anything to screw up what works, and Texas, in its current form, works.

And I'd repeat my suggestion to you, as one who lives here, the East Texas bible-belters are pandered to, but they hold precious little clout here. Kiko Canseco (Republican, San Antonio) talks the talk of a holy-roller, and votes Chamber of Commerce every time.

If you can't understand the necessity of throwing out boob bait for the bubbas to keep the ballots the way you want them, then you're terribly naive, and you, sir, are many things, but naive is not one of them.


Texas, in its current form, works

Bullshit. I'm a Texan and no we are not just fine. There's plenty in Texas that doesn't work. We look no better than Mississippi, Alabama or South Carolina when it comes to virtually every quality of life measure: High school drop out rates, uninsured children, teen age pregnancy, incarceration, and low paying jobs. The list goes on and on. We are not fine and we are not working in our current form.

And speaking of the rainy day fund, what exactly would you consider a rainy day, if not a day when you have a 27 billion dollar deficit? Or maybe it could be spent on those wildfires that Rick "Secession" Perry keeps trying to get Obama to pay for? Or when you can't pay to educate your children? I guess the schools where you live won't be losing any teachers. Where I live we are losing plenty. But I guess that's Texas working just fine.

And if you think forcing women to have vaginal sonograms before they can have an abortion, which is their constitutional right, is just "boob bait" you can kiss my ass. That shit has real consequences for real women, most of whom are young and poor and you are naive if you think it doesn't. Those Biblt thumpers have an awful lot of clout if you have a womb. I do so maybe I'm being overly sensitive.

But whatever if you think that shit "works"

417 funky chicken  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:53:14pm

re: #410 Claire

Hey, it works for me. I think it would make brilliant political theater as a whole lot of Limbaugh acolytes would have to find ways to argue against it, and corporations like GE would have to scramble to try to defend the current system ...

But factories coming back? LOL, but what about those awful unions that demand living wages and benefits, and environmental organizations that protest pollution and stuff?

I'd love to see it all unfold though. Cheers!

418 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:54:15pm

re: #415 Decatur Deb

I'll stop, cross my heart.


I find the whole topic rather uplifting.

419 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:55:16pm

re: #418 Capitalist Tool

I find the whole topic rather uplifting.

When someone pushes down on me, I push up.

420 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:55:55pm

re: #417 funky chicken

Hey, it works for me. I think it would make brilliant political theater as a whole lot of Limbaugh acolytes would have to find ways to argue against it, and corporations like GE would have to scramble to try to defend the current system ...

But factories coming back? LOL, but what about those awful unions that demand living wages and benefits, and environmental organizations that protest pollution and stuff?

I'd love to see it all unfold though. Cheers!

Richard Pryor once told this joke about how one day rich people would fine new ni&&ers to mistreat and exploit. And boy did they, all over the world. Exploiting illegal aliens here isn't even enough. Eventually, everybody gets uppity in America.

421 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:56:52pm

re: #420 moderatelyradicalliberal

Richard Pryor once told this joke about how one day rich people would fine new ni&&ers to mistreat and exploit. And boy did they, all over the world. Exploiting illegal aliens here isn't even enough. Eventually, everybody gets uppity in America.

Founding Fathers=uppity.

422 spocomptonite  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:57:29pm

lol @ Mitt Romney. I just got back from Beijing and after being really quite surprised by all the brand-new Buicks being driven there, I have to say its better we bailed out GM than let another automaker from another country have that share of a really, really, gigantically huge market.

423 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:57:48pm

re: #421 Decatur Deb

Founding Fathers=uppity.

Must be the air or the water or some shit.

424 BongCrodny  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:57:53pm

re: #413 Decatur Deb

That's totally without foundation.


Nice one, bra!

425 Decatur Deb  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:58:47pm

re: #424 BongCrodny

Nice one, bra!

Saved by a phone call. BBL

426 moderatelyradicalliberal  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 4:58:51pm

re: #422 spocomptonite

lol @ Mitt Romney. I just got back from Beijing and after being really quite surprised by all the brand-new Buicks being driven there, I have to say its better we bailed out GM than let another automaker from another country have that share of a really, really, gigantically huge market.

He's so damn silly. He's known as a flip-flopper so now he's too afraid to flip-flop again on anything.

427 Capitalist Tool  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 5:02:32pm

re: #422 spocomptonite

lol @ Mitt Romney. I just got back from Beijing and after being really quite surprised by all the brand-new Buicks being driven there, I have to say its better we bailed out GM than let another automaker from another country have that share of a really, really, gigantically huge market.

Maybe Mustangs are too much for their staid and placid ways.

428 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 5:04:09pm

It's not just education standards being undermined.
Creationists are infiltrating US geology circles
Creationism creeps into mainstream geology

The Leaders

Together with about 50 attendees, I attended field trip 409 at the GSA meeting last October. The trip took us from Denver, where the meeting was held, to the area surrounding Garden of the Gods National Natural Landmark in Colorado Springs. The point, according to the field trip guide, was “to observe and discuss the processes of sedimentation and tectonics at superb exposures near the Garden of the Gods.”

Many attendees seemed unaware of the backgrounds of the five trip co-leaders: Steve Austin, Marcus Ross, Tim Clarey, John Whitmore and Bill Hoesch. Austin is probably the most well-known; he is chair of the geology department at the Institute for Creation Research, which describes itself as the “leader in scientific research from a biblical perspective, conducting innovative laboratory and field research in the major disciplines of science.” Austin has been very active in promoting a Noah’s Flood interpretation of the geology of the Grand Canyon.

Ross is a former Discovery Institute fellow, currently an assistant professor of geology at Liberty University in Virginia (the self-proclaimed largest Christian university in the world). The University of Rhode Island granted him a doctorate in geology in 2006 even though he professed that Earth was at most 10,000 years old. [snip]

429 Claire  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 5:10:02pm

re: #428 abolitionist

Psssst: The real geologists are "on to them." Don't worry, they won't get very far. Honest!

430 abolitionist  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 5:17:06pm

re: #429 Claire

Pssst: The real geologists are "on to them." Don't worry, they won't get very far. Honest!

Actually, the politicians and voters are of more immediate concern to me.

431 William  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 8:01:11pm

Bankruptcy does not mean "go out of business." Companies often choose to enter "bankruptcy" (there are six types of bankruptcy) to reorganize and restructure their business to pay off debts and return to profitability.

432 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:17:29pm

re: #323 Guanxi88

All the Californians and New Yorkers and Rust-Belters moving here to find work don't seem to have a problem with it. Frankly, I'd be pleased if you could continue to dissuade them from coming, as I'd just as soon Texas jobs go to Texans.

And, for the record, Texas has an excellent educational system, as you know perfectly well, as do the thousands who come here from around the world to learn the hard sciences. When gabby Giffords was treated in Houston, it wasn't by faith-healers, you benighted bigot.

hahaha hahah

hahaha

haha

hee hee

ho ho

texas. education. lullululululuzzz

"Desparately looking for work in the crumbling toilet of america" apparently now equals "we really dig it when cattlemen whitewash racism in school textbooks, it's totally rad"

Seriously, texas and K-12 education? i'd WAY sooner homeschool than trust any hypothetical child of mine to the superstitious witch doctors running the BOE of texas, fuck them senseless, fuck Texas

433 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Jun 14, 2011 11:18:31pm

re: #343 Guanxi88

He has a prejudice against the state that has succeeded where his former home state (cali) and his current home state (NY) have failed. The prejudice is groundless, reflexive, and unquestioning. the definition of bigotry.

And the same shit we always hear from you guys, that YOU'RE JUST SO VICTIMIZED

LOOOOOOOOL


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Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
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Harper’s Magazine: Slippery Slope - How Private Equity Shapes a Ski Town …Big Sky stands apart for other reasons. The obvious distinction is the Yellowstone Club, a private resort hidden in the mountains above the community that Justin Farrell, a professor of sociology at Yale and the author of Billionaire Wilderness, ...
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