Ex-Boyfriend of Cain Accuser Corroborates Her Story

This could be why Cain seems a bit distracted lately
Politics • Views: 25,166

Now the ex-boyfriend of Herman Cain accuser Sharon Bialek has come forward and confirmed her account of sexual harassment.

Victor Zuckerman said today he backs ex-girlfriend Sharon Bialek’s allegation that Herman Cain “touched her in an inappropriate manner.”

Zuckerman, a pediatrician, came forward after Cain last week denied knowing Bialek.

The GOP presidential candidate, who has been roiled by accusations of sexual misconduct for two weeks, said the incident Bialek described from 1997 “simply did not happen.”

Zuckerman’s news conference comes as Cain’s wife, Gloria, is set to make her national television debut tonight on Fox News. Gloria Cain says in the interview that her husband “totally respects women.”

Bialek, a Chicago-area woman, came forward last week and alleged Cain put his hand up her skirt and groped her when she asked his help in finding a job. She and Zuckerman say Bialek met Cain several times while she was employed by the National Restaurant Association Educational Foundation in the 1990s.

In a statement read to reporters in Shreveport, La., Zuckerman says Bialek went to dinner with Cain in Washington and returned “upset. She said that something happened and Mr. Cain had touched her in an inappropriate manner.”

He later used the term “sexual assault” to describe the incident.

Zuckerman was joined at the news conference by lawyer Gloria Allred, who represents Bialek. The doctor, who described himself as a Republican, said he came forward to “aid the public in evaluating the statements previously made by Mr. Cain and Ms. Bialek.”

He says he was not paid to tell his story. Saying he believes people will try to discredit him and his motives, Zuckerman disclosed that he’s never been sued for malpractice or charged with a crime. He said he has filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy but his payments have been made on time.

Jump to bottom

349 comments
1 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:31:22pm

Drip, drip, drip.

The more evidence arrives, the more I'm thinking of switching from "balance of probabilities" guilty to "beyond the reasonable doubt" guilty. (Not yet, though.)

2 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:32:22pm
Zuckerman’s news conference comes as Cain’s wife, Gloria, is set to make her national television debut tonight on Fox News. Gloria Cain says in the interview that her husband “totally respects women.”

Like John Stewart said, what the hell do you expect Gloria Cain to say? "He put his hand up her skirt? Oh, thats my Herman! Such a rascal."

3 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:34:59pm

re: #1 Sergey Romanov

Drip, drip, drip.

The more evidence arrives, the more I'm thinking of switching from "balance of probabilities" guilty to "beyond the reasonable doubt" guilty. (Not yet, though.)

this guy is not evidence....he may be lying through his teeth

4 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:35:04pm

re: #1 Sergey Romanov

Well, in this case he's just confirming what she told him at the time. I never really doubted that part. And Cain's stupidity of saying he doesn't know her was sort of obviously wrong. I don't think anyone believed he'd never met her, instead, he was trying some sort of 'she's so insignificant I forgot about her' thing.

5 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:35:42pm

re: #1 Sergey Romanov

Drip, drip, drip.

The more evidence arrives, the more I'm thinking of switching from "balance of probabilities" guilty to "beyond the reasonable doubt" guilty. (Not yet, though.)

Showing your masculinity there.

/semi

6 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:36:20pm

re: #3 albusteve

this guy is not evidence...he may be lying through his teeth

He's not proof, but he is evidence.

7 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:36:25pm

re: #4 Obdicut

Well, in this case he's just confirming what she told him at the time.

Which is very important.

8 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:37:11pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

He's not proof, but he is evidence.

whatever...I'll leave the word games to others that groove on that stuff

9 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:37:16pm

re: #3 albusteve

this guy is not evidence...he may be lying through his teeth

Any witness may be lying through his teeth. Are you saying witness testimony is never evidence?

10 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:38:19pm

re: #8 albusteve

whatever...I'll leave the word games to others that groove on that stuff

Then post using something other than words.

11 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:38:26pm

re: #8 albusteve

whatever...I'll leave the word games to others that groove on that stuff

Here's one for you before you go: solipsism

12 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:39:05pm

re: #8 albusteve

whatever...I'll leave the word games to others that groove on that stuff

You're playing the word games here, steve.

13 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:39:16pm

re: #9 Sergey Romanov

Any witness may be lying through his teeth. Are you saying witness testimony is never evidence?

it's circumstantial and I don't think Cain could be convicted on a bunch of blather...public opinion will bounce him, the arena where it counts....and further I think he is guilty as sin

14 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:40:03pm

re: #13 albusteve

it's circumstantial and I don't think Cain could be convicted on a bunch of blather...public opinion will bounce him, the arena where it counts...and further I think he is guilty as sin

You didn't answer my question.
Yes, it's circumstancial. It's still evidence.

15 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:40:19pm

well, according to today's poll cain is an ex-parrot, anyway...

16 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:40:29pm

It would be an odd thing for a successful pediatrician to come forward after all this time and volunteer to support an ex-girlfriend in a lie.

17 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:41:35pm

re: #14 Sergey Romanov

You didn't answer my question.
Yes, it's circumstancial. It's still evidence.

O'm on the fone

18 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:42:15pm

re: #16 jaunte

It would be an odd thing for a successful pediatrician to come forward after all this time and volunteer to support an ex-girlfriend in a lie.

BUT BUT CHAPTER ELEVEN!!!!!1

19 BARACK THE VOTE  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:43:01pm

re: #18 erik_t

BUT BUT CHAPTER ELEVEN!!!1

They'll go there, never fear.

20 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:43:11pm

re: #18 erik_t

...Especially in a super-secret plot to scuttle a campaign that's barely afloat anyway.

21 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:43:14pm

re: #13 albusteve

it's circumstantial and I don't think Cain could be convicted on a bunch of blather...public opinion will bounce him, the arena where it counts...and further I think he is guilty as sin

When trying to gauge witness credibility one usually asks "what does the witness stand to gain from testifying?" It's not clear that this guy has anything to gain from going public and joining the spectacle, except perhaps the internal satisfaction of having manned up and stood ground for an ex-girlfriend.

22 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:43:31pm

re: #17 albusteve

O'm on the fone

Whatever. You're never a serious opponent anyway.

23 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:47:56pm

re: #22 Sergey Romanov

Whatever. You're never a serious opponent anyway.

for me, that's a compliment...thanks

24 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:48:41pm

re: #23 albusteve

for me, that's a compliment...thanks

You're welcome. Also take these sour grapes as a present.

25 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:49:27pm

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Google’s Lab of Wildest Dreams

26 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:50:52pm

re: #24 Sergey Romanov

You're welcome. Also take these sour grapes as a present.

sour grapes?...please

27 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:52:15pm

re: #21 goddamnedfrank

When trying to gauge witness credibility one usually asks "what does the witness stand to gain from testifying?" It's not clear that this guy has anything to gain from going public and joining the spectacle, except perhaps the internal satisfaction of having manned up and stood ground for an ex-girlfriend.

right, but it's not a court trial...just alot of finger pointing at this point

28 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:53:33pm

re: #27 albusteve

Lots and lots of independent fingers are pointing in one direction. Pretty much all of them.

29 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:54:09pm

re: #28 erik_t

Lots and lots of independent fingers are pointing in one direction. Pretty much all of them.

no shit....have I defended Cain?

30 Atlas Fails  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:54:41pm

Cain's sinking like a stone in the latest CNN poll. It looks like Newt's the latest non-Mitt flavor of the month.

31 laZardo  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:54:55pm

re: #25 Sergey Romanov

Google may turn one of the ideas — the driverless cars that it unleashed on California’s roads last year — into a new business. Unimpressed by the innovative spirit of Detroit automakers, Google now is considering manufacturing them in the United States, said a person briefed on the effort.

Google could sell navigation or information technology for the cars, and theoretically could show location-based ads to passengers as they zoom by local businesses while playing Angry Birds in the driver’s seat.

They ought to create a good mass transit system. That way they can leave the roads to the proper car enthusiasts, who will then have less problems paying for road taxes because then we can enjoy our awesome rides without so many beige-type cars cluttering it up. :D

/the James May rationale

32 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:56:08pm

re: #30 Atlas Fails

Cain's sinking like a stone in the latest CNN poll (pdf.) It looks like Newt's the latest non-Mitt flavor of the month.

Dang.

33 bratwurst  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:59:16pm

Cain campaign defense of the Libya video has just been released...can you guess what it is?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
If you said "taken out of context", you are exactly right, put a little extra Bosco on your ice cream tonight.

34 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:59:22pm

Republicans Seeking Anti-Romney Fear Results Of Romney-Anti-Romney Collision

apparently would result in high energy emission of selectron, klingon, and groupon particles

Denounce Neutron Particles For Middle Of The Road Position On Having An Electric Charge

35 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 2:59:39pm

re: #29 albusteve

If the intent of statements like 'this guy is not evidence...he may be lying through his teeth' is not to offer a partial defense of Cain, then I do not know why you take the time to make them. Water also is wet, sky also is blue. I have not seen you post these and many other truisms.

36 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:00:36pm

re: #33 bratwurst

Cain campaign defense of the Libya video has just been released...can you guess what it is?
.
.
If you said "taken out of context", you are exactly right, put a little extra Bosco on your ice cream tonight.

The damn video was five minutes long! What, did he save the smart part of the answer for minute 8?
/

37 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:00:44pm

re: #6 wrenchwench

He's not proof, but he is evidence.

Miss Manners: "People are not evidence, they are witnesses. Killing witnesses is a dreadful idea. Miss Manners hopes she has caught you in time."

(This was in response to someone who had been told not to leave evidence of how much candy he had eaten, and wanted to know if it was polite to kill a fellow houseguest who saw you eat a piece of candy.)

38 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:00:44pm

re: #35 erik_t

Coulda, shoulda, woulda. Typical. The concept of the convergence of evidence is foreign to some.

39 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:00:48pm

re: #33 bratwurst

Cain campaign defense of the Libya video has just been released...can you guess what it is?
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
If you said "taken out of context", you are exactly right, put a little extra Bosco on your ice cream tonight.

Playing the entire thing in its entirety "Taken out of context", got it.

40 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:01:29pm

re: #13 albusteve

it's circumstantial and I don't think Cain could be convicted on a bunch of blather...public opinion will bounce him, the arena where it counts...and further I think he is guilty as sin

Conviction isn't really a concern here, and as you say, it's going to be all about public opinion. Which will not improve if this keeps up.

41 Shiplord Kirel  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:01:48pm
Zuckerman’s news conference comes as Cain’s wife, Gloria, is set to make her national television debut tonight on Fox News. Gloria Cain says in the interview that her husband “totally respects women.”

Just once, I want to see one of these dutifully forgiving political wives pull out a rolling pin during an interview and knock her low-life alley-cat caveman of a husband in the head.
/not advocating violence (but would enjoy it).
Mark "Appalachian Trail" Sanford's wife came closest to it, since she threw him out and filed for divorce rather than playing her assigned role. Good for her.

42 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:02:17pm

re: #30 Atlas Fails

Cain's sinking like a stone in the latest CNN poll. It looks like Newt's the latest non-Mitt flavor of the month.

i like to think of newt's apparent rise as a mathematical artifact resulting from limitations in the integer distribution of 100% of the vote or the fact that with the sound off he looks like a beanie baby

43 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:02:28pm

re: #35 erik_t

If the intent of statements like 'this guy is not evidence...he may be lying through his teeth' is not to offer a partial defense of Cain, then I do not know why you take the time to make them. Water also is wet, sky also is blue. I have not seen you post these and many other truisms.

whatever...Cain says one thing, others come forward and refute it...I misspoke myself....this is circumstantial evidence, not proof...that's the entire point....you wanna run with it, go ahead

44 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:03:43pm

re: #43 albusteve

Thank you for acknowledging it.

No, it's not proof (proof is for maths and whiskey anyway). It does add to the probability calculus though.

45 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:04:05pm

re: #37 SanFranciscoZionist

Miss Manners: "People are not evidence, they are witnesses. Killing witnesses is a dreadful idea. Miss Manners hopes she has caught you in time."

(This was in response to someone who had been told not to leave evidence of how much candy he had eaten, and wanted to know if it was polite to kill a fellow houseguest who saw you eat a piece of candy.)

A pleasure to be corrected by you and Miss Manners. I should be writing my order, or posting here, and not both.

The ex-boyfriend is providing evidence, or at least testimony, in case that's not the same thing.

46 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:04:43pm

re: #42 engineer dog

i like to think of newt's apparent rise as a mathematical artifact resulting from limitations in the integer distribution of 100% of the vote or the fact that with the sound off he looks like a beanie baby

Not to mention they've burned through everybody but Hunstman and Santorum at this point.

47 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:05:47pm

Speaking of Newt;

Gingrich Calls For A Covert War Against Iran That’s Probably Already Happening

as the Washington Post’s Walter Pincus points out, “Some of the activities they suggested may be underway but not publicly acknowledged.” Publicly calling for covert activity, as Gingrich and Santorum did, may provide for a satisfying political punch because the administration is unlikely to defend its record. To do so could possibly hamper ongoing efforts and, more to the point, would destroy any of the deniability that Gingrich calls for. Announcing covert operations means that they, by definition, can never be carried out.

But media accounts help piece together what indeed seems like wide-ranging covert activity by the U.S. and Israel, working hand-in-hand. The New York Times reported in January that the U.S. and Israel had worked together to develop the powerful Stuxnet computer virus that destroyed some of Iran’s centrifuges, slowing down its nuclear work. And one imagines that when Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu says that Israeli and American “security cooperation is unprecedented,” he could well have been talking about work on Iran issues. Former prime minister and current defense chief Ehud Barak also recently said: “I can hardly remember a better period of support, American support and cooperation and similar strategic understanding of events around us than what we have right now.”

48 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:05:55pm

re: #44 Sergey Romanov

Thank you for acknowledging it.

No, it's not proof (proof is for maths and whiskey anyway). It does add to the probability calculus though.

I got distracted...
someone died...probably get more calls here...

49 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:06:24pm

re: #43 albusteve

Of course. Proof in such cases is reserved for fringe scenarios that happen to involve some surveillance camera.

50 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:08:05pm

re: #49 erik_t

Of course. Proof in such cases is reserved for fringe scenarios that happen to involve some surveillance camera.

my position all along is that we do not know what Cain, in fact, did...we do know how he handled the allegations and for that alone I see him as unfit for POTUS

51 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:09:27pm

More explanation of Cain's blankout on Libya:

From Cain’s spokesman, via the Washington Post’s Rachel Weiner: “He was on about four hours of sleep after flying from Atlanta to Wisconsin. He just took a moment to get his bearings.”

Maybe he found his bearings, but he still didn't answer the damn question.

52 erik_t  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:10:33pm

re: #51 makeitstop

Fortunately, a nice reasonable 10pm bedtime means he'll be quite ready for that mythical 3am phone call.
/

53 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:10:42pm

[Link: money.cnn.com...]

NEW YORK (CNNMoney) -- Ilya Zhitomirskiy, one of four co-founders of social network Diaspora, died over the weekend in San Francisco at age 22.

Zhitomirskiy committed suicide, a source close to the company told CNNMoney on Sunday.

54 wrenchwench  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:11:07pm

re: #51 makeitstop

More explanation of Cain's blankout on Libya:

Maybe he found his bearings, but he still didn't answer the damn question. not his marbles.

Alternate ending.

55 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:11:20pm

re: #45 wrenchwench

A pleasure to be corrected by you and Miss Manners. I should be writing my order, or posting here, and not both.

The ex-boyfriend is providing evidence, or at least testimony, in case that's not the same thing.

It really wasn't meant as a correction--I just don't get to quote Miss Manners enough.

56 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:12:27pm

re: #46 makeitstop

Not to mention they've burned through everybody but Hunstman and Santorum at this point.

the thing is, newt burned through himself once already when he announced in the worst possible way. apparently in the gop field you can be burnt twice and still be considered edible

57 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:13:11pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Speaking of Newt;

Gingrich Calls For A Covert War Against Iran That’s Probably Already Happening

I did wonder about that. He was doing his thing, and I was thinking, well, if this were going on, how would you know?

58 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:14:45pm

re: #56 engineer dog

the thing is, newt burned through himself once already when he announced in the worst possible way. apparently in the gop field you can be burnt twice and still be considered edible

Except of you're Huntsman or Santorum.

Unless they're saving those two for when they get really desperate.

59 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:19:29pm

Did Buck just agree with MediaMatters?: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

60 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:20:15pm

re: #59 000G

Did Buck just agree with MediaMatters?: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Hey! Not fair! He didn't know! ///

61 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:23:09pm

re: #60 Sergey Romanov

One of the favorite games the publisher of that commie magazine I subscribed to likes to play with his readership is that he will place certain quotes in his monthly column and then give several options of people who might have said it (e.g. head of conservative party, head of neonazi party, head of green party). But he will never offer the right answer! He just does it to illustrate how similar view points and phrases are among parties.

62 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:26:42pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

I did wonder about that. He was doing his thing, and I was thinking, well, if this were going on, how would you know?

1) If you're going to wage a covert war, don't tell anyone you plan to wage a covert war

2) If you see people dying left and right in the target country, plus a major computer virus crippling the program you're worried about, don't ask why a covert war isn't being waged or demand to know what steps the government is taking.

63 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:27:40pm

re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Speaking of Newt;

Gingrich Calls For A Covert War Against Iran That’s Probably Already Happening

Didn't Santorum call for the very same thing?

Guys forgot the First Rule of Covert Assassination Club.

64 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:29:08pm

re: #62 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

1) If you're going to wage a covert war, don't tell anyone you plan to wage a covert war

2) If you see people dying left and right in the target country, plus a major computer virus crippling the program you're worried about, don't ask why a covert war isn't being waged or demand to know what steps the government is taking.

Unless you're Newt, and see a chance to get in an unanswerable shot.

65 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:29:13pm

re: #63 000G

Didn't Santorum call for the very same thing?

Guys forgot the First Rule of Covert Assassination Club.

power fantasies for the modern GOP, wheee

66 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:31:18pm

Evening Honcos.

67 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:32:12pm

a propos of nothing, via my friend 'echidne of the snakes', a parrot singing in finnish:

68 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:34:51pm

re: #63 000G

At best, this is exactly the same thing that McCain upbraided Obama for: don't telegraph your move. Obama, of course, telegraphed he'd go into Pakistan after Bin Laden, and then did so with no problem despite having telegraphed it.

But that's a rather different scenario then this one.

69 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:36:11pm

re: #57 SanFranciscoZionist

I did wonder about that. He was doing his thing, and I was thinking, well, if this were going on, how would you know?

Why isn't Obama doing things I would do secretly and never acknowledge?

70 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:37:15pm

re: #64 jaunte

Unless you're Newt, and see a chance to get in an unanswerable shot.

Like asking your wife for a divorce right before she goes in for surgery?

71 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:39:33pm

re: #67 engineer dog

Sweet.

72 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:42:20pm

re: #69 goddamnedfrank

The whole point of a Doomsday Machine is lost, if you *keep* it a *secret*!

73 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:43:26pm

re: #70 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Like asking your wife for a divorce right before she goes in for surgery?

if it's a sex change operation, fair enough

74 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:44:50pm

Hi everyone!

Some exciting things going on in my life. I met today with a local pastor and talked about how to bridge the divide between secular progressive/radical leftist groups with the social justice faith communities. This conversation grew out of a conversation of the pros and cons of the Occupy movement.

I'm also going to be involved in created a panel composed of homeless youth who will inform the city council on issues pertaining to their welfare.

75 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:47:45pm

So, the tosh satellite A-10...you have to disassemble the entire frickin' laptop chassis and motherboard and cpu heatsink just to change the damn CMOS battery.

I'm not in a good mood.

That is all.

76 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:49:01pm
77 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:52:24pm

re: #75 wozzablog

So, the tosh satellite A-10...you have to disassemble the entire frickin' laptop chassis and motherboard and cpu heatsink just to change the damn CMOS battery.

I'm not in a good mood.

That is all.

I am...so I will thrill you with this...
Jeff Healy Band
Angel

78 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:53:28pm

Lest we get too excited about who's on top among the republicans, let me remind what the situation was this time in 2007.

The front runner at ~30% was Giuliani, who was in that vicinity since April.

In second but falling was Thompson. At this point of time he was a little above 15%.

Just below Thompson and falling just as fast was McCain.

Slightly below McCain but climbing (barely) was Romney.

Under 10 was Huckabee, who wouldn't see his spike to the number one position till December (mostly picking up the people who were abandoning Giuliani).

And lest we forget, Ron Paul was holding his solid 2%.

79 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:54:46pm

re: #76 000G

Study Confirms: Fox News Creates Alternate Reality On Climate Science

Reminds me of this:
Chili peppers burn your butt: Making sense of "duh" discoveries

Study Confirms: Fox News Creates Alternate Reality On Climate Science

80 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:55:22pm

re: #77 albusteve

Thankee.

81 Charleston Chew  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:56:50pm

For all the people who like to prognosticate politics based on statistics, indexes, and generic theoretical races, take a deep breath and actually just look at the people.

Forget positions and policy and who you agree with. Just as a fully-functioning mature adult human being, the President beats everyone the GOP has to offer. I'm ready to call 2012 based on that.

82 (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was)  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:57:01pm

re: #79 Gus 802

Uncle Rupert peddles mind-altering substances.

83 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:58:08pm

re: #81 Charleston Chew

For all the people who like to prognosticate politics based on statistics, indexes, and generic theoretical races, take a deep breath and actually just look at the people.

Forget positions and policy and who you agree with. Just as a fully-functioning mature adult human being, the President beats everyone the GOP has to offer. I'm ready to call 2012 based on that.

BO is a tool...better than the GOP offerings?
I think so....we are hosed

84 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:58:57pm

re: #82 000G

Uncle Rupert peddles mind-altering substances.

Fox News could be seen as "freebased news." Just take ordinary everyday news and cook it up to a fine crack base.

85 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 3:59:29pm

this is the greatest news story:[Link: www.houstonpress.com...]

86 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:00:14pm

re: #74 Alexzander

Good for you! But you must always keep one thing in mind. Don't stab and don't rape. Raping and stabbing won't get you anywhere.

//

87 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:00:28pm

So has Gingrich picked who is going to be his first lady yet?

88 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:00:43pm

re: #85 WindUpBird

this is the greatest news story:[Link: www.houstonpress.com...]

as the world turns

89 freetoken  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:00:54pm

Apparently I'm now a right-winger. Who could have guessed?

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:00:55pm

re: #87 Gus 802

So has Gingrich picked who is going to be his first lady yet?

Mars Attacks!

91 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:02:00pm

re: #84 Gus 802

Fox News could be seen as "freebased news." Just take ordinary everyday news and cook it up to a fine crack base.

I've been thinking of a spoof series of a recent ant-meth-amphetamine campaign. Instead of "X isn't normal. But on meth it is. Meth. Not even once." It will feature the bizarities that are quite common while "on republicanism."

92 sagehen  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:02:20pm

re: #51 makeitstop

From Cain’s spokesman, via the Washington Post’s Rachel Weiner: “He was on about four hours of sleep after flying from Atlanta to Wisconsin. He just took a moment to get his bearings.”

So I guess that's the answer to how he'd handle the 3 a.m. phone call?

93 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:03:04pm

re: #89 freetoken

Apparently I'm now a right-winger. Who could have guessed?

*sigh*

94 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:03:23pm

re: #86 Sergey Romanov

Good for you! But you must always keep one thing in mind. Don't stab and don't rape. Raping and stabbing won't get you anywhere.

//

But on republicanism it will.

Republicanism.
Not even once.

95 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:04:09pm

Fewer people support Occupy than before: Poll

According to an Angus Reid poll released Monday, 64% of Vancouverites have an unfavourable opinion of the Occupy Vancouver protest.

Of the 402 Vancouver residents surveyed, just 29% said they look at the protest favourably.

“It has to do with the fact it has been going on a long time,” said Angus Reid pollster Mario Canseco. “When this started I think we had a 50-50 split in support. Now this has grown into a big situation and people are saying maybe it is time to end the occupation.”

96 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:05:35pm

re: #87 Gus 802

So has Gingrich picked who is going to be his first lady yet?

It depends on who donates the most over the campaign cycle. He'll announce it after he's won.

97 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:06:28pm

re: #96 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

It depends on who donates the most over the campaign cycle. He'll announce it after he's won.

He might have to trade the Chevy up for a new Jaguar.

//

98 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:06:56pm

re: #87 Gus 802

So has Gingrich picked who is going to be his first lady yet?

Exxon.

99 albusteve  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:07:03pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Fewer people support Occupy than before: Poll

bunch of childish nonsense...but the occupiers can tell their kids how they influenced political thought....LOL!...it's a juvenile pissing contest at it's best

100 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:08:07pm

Wow.
402 people.
In Canada.
Okely dokely.

101 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:09:36pm

DRINK

102 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:09:49pm

Okay, off to look at guitars for a while. Catch y'all later.

103 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:09:59pm

re: #100 Varek Raith

Wow.
402 people.
In Canada.
Okely dokely.

It's actually in Vancouver, Washington.

104 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:10:39pm

re: #103 Gus 802

It's actually in Vancouver, Washington.

Whoops!
Lol.
That'll teach me!

105 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:12:01pm

re: #99 albusteve

bunch of childish nonsense...but the occupiers can tell their kids how they influenced political thought...LOL!...it's a juvenile pissing contest at it's best

My guess is that support in urban areas is dropping the fastest. In Vancouver they're getting a Tea Party approval rating. We'll see what happens with the next national poll but I strongly suspect approval to drop off pretty fast.

106 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:12:46pm

re: #103 Gus 802

It's actually in Vancouver, Washington.

Hey, watch it. That's my hometown.

For the record, though, there are going to be more than 402 people ticked off in Portland when they find out the cost of Occupy Portland.

$100,000 in park repair, $450,000 in overtime pay to evict the protest, more overtime before that, and as one of my nurse friends was pointing out, the Portapotties were removed 3 days before the end of the protest, leading to the question of how they sanitize the parks again.

107 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:12:51pm

re: #103 Gus 802

It's actually in Vancouver, Washington.

Nope, it's Canada.

108 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:14:10pm

On the bright side, a whole bunch of police officer's children will have a merrier Christmas with the extra money Daddy just earned.

109 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:14:43pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Fewer people support Occupy than before: Poll

Thought you might like this one:


Occupy Utopia: Trouble For One Spells Trouble For All

...

The truth is, the Occupy camp had problems before Mayor Kelly cleared it out. In fact, if the events of November 11 hadn’t happened, I’m not sure how much longer the gathering would’ve lasted.

At the November 9 general assembly, tensions were high. The camp’s reputation for accepting anyone, giving them shelter, food and a makeshift community was attracting more people who needed help than people who were able to offer it. People who are homeless used the facilities at the camp: the medical supplies, the food, the kitchen, the common “hang-out” area. People are homeless in Canada for many reasons, but there is usually an addiction in their past or present, or a mental health issue. Homeless youth are usually fleeing the addictions or abuse in whatever house they escaped from.

...

110 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:15:00pm

re: #103 Gus 802

It's actually in Vancouver, Washington.

You forgot your "just joking" tag. That's Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada.

Article is on the vancouver.24hrs.ca website. It mentions the mayoral race between Gregor Robertson and NPA Councilor Suzanne Anton.

111 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:15:17pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Nope, it's Canada.

I thought something was up when they spelled unfavourable wrong.
/

112 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:15:59pm

Damn Canadians.
/

113 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:16:25pm

re: #112 Varek Raith

Damn Canadians.
/

Someone had to say it!!!
/

114 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:16:37pm

Interesting photo:

Image: fa_472_enginethruwall970.jpg

Story here.

115 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:16:51pm

FYI:

The Vancouver 24hours daily is a piece of trash free paper willed with advertising and conservative propaganda.

116 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:17:05pm

re: #74 Alexzander

Hi everyone!

Some exciting things going on in my life. I met today with a local pastor and talked about how to bridge the divide between secular progressive/radical leftist groups with the social justice faith communities. This conversation grew out of a conversation of the pros and cons of the Occupy movement.

I'm also going to be involved in created a panel composed of homeless youth who will inform the city council on issues pertaining to their welfare.

Oh, very nice. Keep us posted.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:17:09pm

re: #106 EmmmieG

still more pissed about the credit crisis in 2008, and the continued bailouts and shoring up of our robber baron elites than I'll ever be about slightly higher taxes from hippies stomping aboot in the park blocks


The former cost us our entire economy, so I'll continue to consider that my primary action item

118 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:17:16pm

re: #114 Gus 802

Interesting photo:

Image: fa_472_enginethruwall970.jpg

Story here.

Oh, hai!

119 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:17:36pm

re: #115 Alexzander

You mean that might not have been a scientific poll?


Drink!

120 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:18:05pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Nope, it's Canada.

Oh. I didn't look. Thought it was a local story because you mentioned it and Vancouver, WA is across the river from Portland, OR. Anywho. Carry on.

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:18:14pm

re: #106 EmmmieG

Hey, watch it. That's my hometown.

For the record, though, there are going to be more than 402 people ticked off in Portland when they find out the cost of Occupy Portland.

$100,000 in park repair, $450,000 in overtime pay to evict the protest, more overtime before that, and as one of my nurse friends was pointing out, the Portapotties were removed 3 days before the end of the protest, leading to the question of how they sanitize the parks again.

Just nuke the park from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

122 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:18:49pm

re: #109 McSpiff

The next paragraph sounds like a nightmare...

This community of needy people became a sometimes violent place. There were clashes. The healthiest residents, from luckier backgrounds, who were there because of strong political convictions, were being attacked, a lot of times by the residents of the camp who were frequently in need of help. Either the healthy help-givers were not helping the help-needers enough, or they had made some mistakes that tend to happen when you’re overworked and only human. On Tuesday night, many Occupiers had been sick, throwing up in their tents. Sanitation had become an issue. Too many people eating, not enough people doing dishes, or not doing them well enough. Some people had been threatened, verbally or with weapons, and due to weariness some key political organizers had taken to spending more time away from the camp than at it.

123 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:18:55pm

re: #117 WindUpBird

still more pissed about the credit crisis in 2008, and the continued bailouts and shoring up of our robber baron elites than I'll ever be about slightly higher taxes from hippies stomping aboot in the park blocks

The former cost us our entire economy, so I'll continue to consider that my primary action item

Right, because if you don't support the Occupy movement, the only other choice is credit crises and 'robber baron elites'. Grow up, some of us don't want to finance either.

124 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:19:07pm

re: #120 Gus 802

Oh. I didn't look. That it was a local story because you mentioned it an Vancouver, WA is across the river from Portland, OR. Anywho. Carry on.

Why do we name cities after other cities?!?!
/

125 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:19:16pm

re: #119 WindUpBird

You mean that might not have been a scientific poll?

Drink!

What I mean is that many vancouverites would be embarrassed to pick up the 24 for anything other than the Sudoku. They pay people to hand it out at subway stations. Advertising.

126 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:19:16pm

drink!

127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:19:56pm

re: #100 Varek Raith

Wow.
402 people.
In Canada.
Okely dokely.

Ain't that 3/4s of the population? Other than the meeses, of course.

128 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:20:11pm

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Just nuke the park from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

I suggested light. I'm pretty sure dumping bleach into the ground would be a really bad idea.

129 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:20:21pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

The next paragraph sounds like a nightmare...

No longer live in the city, but I'm not surprised. Has a real homeless problem, drugs and violent runways. Congregating them all in one small square, and making it a no go zone for police was a doomed idea.

130 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:20:49pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

Nope, it's Canada.

Kilgore, was this you?

Image: chatroulette-trolling-priorities-straight.jpg

131 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:21:26pm

re: #127 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Ain't that 3/4s of the population? Other than the meeses, of course.

I think that's supposed to be moosen.

132 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:21:27pm

re: #123 McSpiff

Right, because if you don't support the Occupy movement, the only other choice is credit crises and 'robber baron elites'. Grow up, some of us don't want to finance either.

I view OWS as a symptom, which is why I "support" it

much like I "support" my own body's pain signals telling me I should stop, say, using my arm in a certain way because I'm doing damage (from actual experience!)


Sweeping unrest under the rug and complaining about it, is like putting makeup on a cancer patient and claiming the patient is healed

133 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:21:49pm

My brother has slept at Occupy Vancouver every night for the past four weeks. Unlike Seattle (which has three tent cities in addition to an occupy site), Vancouver has none, which means that many of the homeless individuals gravitate there for safety. At least that is my guess; I'll be checking it out in person next week and I will have a more informed opinion.

134 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:22:06pm

re: #131 Killgore Trout

I think that's supposed to be moosen.

Moosseseseseses.
Eh?

135 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:22:12pm

re: #130 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Kilgore, was this you?

Image: chatroulette-trolling-priorities-straight.jpg

I wish, looks like that tip jar is getting some action.

136 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:22:27pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

Very apt metaphor.

137 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:23:04pm

re: #124 Varek Raith

Why do we name cities after other cities?!?!
/

Here's the story, and yes, I know it well.

Fort Vancouver was the outpost built by the Hudson's Bay Company for fur trading. It was the only outpost in the Northwest. When the Americans started coming over, the man in charge of Fort Vancouver, McLoughlin, sent them to the other side of the river, which is why Portland is bigger.

When Washington became America instead of England, the Hudson's Bay Company packed up and moved to the new Southernmost border, which is now Vancouver, B.C.

America's Vancouver is older, but significantly smaller.

138 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:23:13pm

Moosi.

139 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:23:24pm

BREAKING: Kat Von D says Jesse James cheated with 19 women in a year

Kat Von D is no longer giving ex-fiance Jesse James the benefit of the doubt, instead alleging that he cheated on her with at least 19 women while they were together.

Nothing like almost running out of fingers and toes keeping track of what a great guy someone isn't.

"Today I encountered the 19th girl to add to the list of people Jesse cheated on me with during this last year ... ," the "L.A. Ink" star wrote Sunday on Facebook.

"There was a time when I was confident and excited at proving the world wrong, because I believed so deeply in people's ability to change for the better. ... I did feel like it would be a positive thing for those who judged Jesse solely based on what they read in tabloids, to see that change is always possible."

//

140 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:23:50pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

What is a bunch of homeless people and kids in a park a symptom of? Because thats who's left.

141 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:24:41pm

re: #137 EmmmieG

Here's the story, and yes, I know it well.

Fort Vancouver was the outpost built by the Hudson's Bay Company for fur trading. It was the only outpost in the Northwest. When the Americans started coming over, the man in charge of Fort Vancouver, McLoughlin, sent them to the other side of the river, which is why Portland is bigger.

When Washington became America instead of England, the Hudson's Bay Company packed up and moved to the new Southernmost border, which is now Vancouver, B.C.

America's Vancouver is older, but significantly smaller.

Did not know that.
Thanks.
:)

142 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:25:40pm

re: #135 Killgore Trout

I wish, looks like that tip jar is getting some action.

I'd so steal that while wearing a Guy Fawkes mask and a Che shirt.

143 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:25:46pm

re: #137 EmmmieG

Here's the story, and yes, I know it well.

Fort Vancouver was the outpost built by the Hudson's Bay Company for fur trading. It was the only outpost in the Northwest. When the Americans started coming over, the man in charge of Fort Vancouver, McLoughlin, sent them to the other side of the river, which is why Portland is bigger.

When Washington became America instead of England, the Hudson's Bay Company packed up and moved to the new Southernmost border, which is now Vancouver, B.C.

America's Vancouver is older, but significantly smaller.

This is also why Vancouver's anti-imperial anarchists smashed the windows of Hudsons Bay Company during the Olympics.

144 Kragar  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:26:03pm

re: #139 Gus 802

BREAKING: Kat Von D says Jesse James cheated with 19 women in a year

//

A woman who dated a man while she knew he was married is shocked he cheated on her?

We've found Newt his next wife!

145 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:26:16pm

I prefer complaining about the things impacting my actual real life, and the lives of my friends and currently that's not hippies in the downtown area

Unemployment and massive corruption and wealth inequality?

or hippies!

Hippie punching is easier, of course :)


meanwhile Bank of America is soaking unemployed people of their benefits, which are meager to the point of lunacy


But that's not as much fun as hippie punching!

146 allegro  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:26:41pm

re: #140 McSpiff

What is a bunch of homeless people and kids in a park a symptom of? Because thats who's left.

A terribly failed system in a wealthy country.

147 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:26:43pm

re: #18 erik_t

BUT BUT CHAPTER ELEVEN!!!1

evil
mean
horrid
feminazi
gloria allred!!!1@

148 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:26:54pm

re: #140 McSpiff

You seem to not be grasping what I'm saying, so this conversation is terminated :)

149 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:27:37pm

re: #145 WindUpBird

I prefer complaining about the things impacting my actual real life, and the lives of my friends and currently that's not hippies in the downtown area

Unemployment and massive corruption and wealth inequality?

or hippies!

Hippie punching is easier, of course :)

meanwhile Bank of America is soaking unemployed people of their benefits, which are meager to the point of lunacy

But that's not as much fun as hippie punching!

You feel like the wealthy are taking advantage of you. Others think the 'hippies' are taking advantage of society. To each their own.

150 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:28:24pm

re: #148 WindUpBird

You seem to not be grasping what I'm saying, so this conversation is terminated :)

I do, I just completely disagree.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:28:40pm

re: #125 Alexzander

What I mean is that many vancouverites would be embarrassed to pick up the 24 for anything other than the Sudoku. They pay people to hand it out at subway stations. Advertising.

The San Francisco Examiner has gone that route.

I'm always baffled by who's reading it.

152 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:28:54pm

Oh look!

Libyan factions in deadly clashes near Zawiya

Several days of fighting between rival factions near the Libyan coastal city of Zawiya have left at least seven people dead, reports say.

The BBC's Karen Allen in Libya says rival communities have been fighting for an area previously controlled by Gaddafi loyalists.

The interim government said the fighting had been resolved.

However analysts say the violence raises questions about stability in post-Gaddafi Libya...

153 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:28:54pm

re: #149 McSpiff

(/tag)

Wait, how are the 'hippies' (quotes yours) taking advantage of society?

154 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:29:41pm

Friend of mine posted this on Facebook like it was the real OWS list of demands.

Followed by this in the comments...

Who wrote this ridiculous thing? Who speaks for this movement? Are you just trying to discredit this movement immediately? Ban the private ownership of land? Are you effing kidding me? You make the rest of us a laughing stock by putting out college acid trip delusions as something serious. STOP IT NOW. We need intelligent, thoughtful, serious people coming forward to make real change possible. This is doing nothing but playing into the hands of Fox News. We have ONE CHANCE to organize effectively to end the corporate coup and take democratic power back for people. I seriously think this could have been written by a Fox News Koch brother operative just to make us look insane.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:17pm

re: #132 WindUpBird

I view OWS as a symptom, which is why I "support" it

much like I "support" my own body's pain signals telling me I should stop, say, using my arm in a certain way because I'm doing damage (from actual experience!)

Sweeping unrest under the rug and complaining about it, is like putting makeup on a cancer patient and claiming the patient is healed

On the other hand, breaking the patient's toe with a hammer, and then when they yell pointing out that they still have cancer and that's much more serious, doesn't really help much either.

156 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:21pm

The robber barons have got their technique DOWN

if only all the energy put into hippie-punching was put into, like, reading about the credit crisis!

Oh well :D

157 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:36pm

re: #149 McSpiff

You feel like the wealthy are taking advantage of you. Others think the 'hippies' are taking advantage of society. To each their own.

That's pretty post-modern and relativist. Some people believe in egalitarianism and not letting the poor die because they cannot afford health care.

158 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:46pm

re: #149 McSpiff

You feel like the wealthy are taking advantage of you. Others think the 'hippies' are taking advantage of society. To each their own.

Wait, are you drawing an equivalence between Wall Street/Banks/etc who wrecked our economy while getting rich and a bunch of kids (and adults) protesting?

No you're saying the protesters are worse. WTF man?

159 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:47pm

re: #138 Varek Raith

Moosi.

Moosae?

Moosim?

160 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:30:54pm

re: #145 WindUpBird

But that's not as much fun as hippie punching!

Nothing's that much fun. But seriously, it's a political movement so awful and so destructive to the areas being "occupied" that pretty much every city wants to get rid of them and has to use force to do it. They damage businesses, parks, bring crime, drugs. There have been deaths, murders, rapes and they cost the tax payers of the "occupied" cities a lot of money in very harsh economic times.
It's a doomed idea.

161 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:07pm

re: #153 windsagio

(/tag)

Wait, how are the 'hippies' (quotes yours) taking advantage of society?

quotes WUB actually. Defying the law is taking advantage of society.

162 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:15pm

re: #155 SanFranciscoZionist

On the other hand, breaking the patient's toe with a hammer, and then when they yell pointing out that they still have cancer and that's much more serious, doesn't really help much either.

I would love it if we didn't need unrest to bring about change

but that's simply not the way things work

163 sagehen  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:19pm

re: #139 Gus 802

BREAKING: Kat Von D says Jesse James cheated with 19 women in a year

//

Wow; so the guy who cheated on his ex by being with you... cheated on you. What a surprise.

(this was one of Dear Abby's perenniels.... "if he leaves his wife to marry you, all you'd be getting is a guy who you know for a fact cheats on his wife.")

164 Gus  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:21pm

Not in the mood for this. Later.

165 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:33pm

re: #139 Gus 802

BREAKING: Kat Von D says Jesse James cheated with 19 women in a year

//

Her makeup line has been popular. I think the perfumes are godawful. Fruity-floral headache-in-a-bottle.

166 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:39pm

re: #157 Alexzander

That's pretty post-modern and relativist. Some people believe in egalitarianism and not letting the poor die because they cannot afford health care.

I'm a Canadian. None of our occupy movement will be dying due to a lack of healthcare anytime soon.

167 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:39pm

re: #161 McSpiff

that's nutso.

168 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:42pm

re: #158 windsagio

Wait, are you drawing an equivalence between Wall Street/Banks/etc who wrecked our economy while getting rich and a bunch of kids (and adults) protesting?

No you're saying the protesters are worse. WTF man?

the sport of kings!

169 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:31:54pm

Moosatz Haderach

170 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:32:25pm

re: #149 McSpiff

You feel like the wealthy are taking advantage of you. Others think the 'hippies' are taking advantage of society. To each their own.

Sorry, but that makes about as much sense as saying "You feel the Koch brothers fund climate-denial groups and politicians who protect their fossil fuel profits. Others think scientists only research climate to get grant money. To each their own."

One of these things is not like the other.

171 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:32:26pm

re: #169 jaunte

Moosatz Haderach

Oh, that's bad.
:P

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:32:44pm

re: #144 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A woman who dated a man while she knew he was married is shocked he cheated on her?

We've found Newt his next wife!

I'd be in favor, simply for the fun of seeing Kat Von D. hanging out with the other wives-of.

I don't like the idea of her being FLOTUS quite enough to contemplate Newt as POTUS, but I bet she'd wear something quite amazing to the Inaugural balls.

173 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:33:15pm

re: #167 windsagio

that's nutso.

That's the basic idea behind the social contract. I don't get to break the law, OWS doesn't get to break the law, Wall Street doesn't get to break the law. If one out of three does, it doesn't justify the other 2/3 doing the same.

174 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:33:35pm

Hahaha I am just agog

175 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:34:00pm

re: #161 McSpiff

Defying the law is taking advantage of society.

Stupid absolutism is stupid.

176 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:34:35pm

re: #175 goddamnedfrank

Stupid absolutism is stupid.

Yup, all men equal before the law is a stupid idea.

177 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:34:36pm

re: #166 McSpiff

I'm a Canadian. None of our occupy movement will be dying due to a lack of healthcare anytime soon.

That's positive, really.

178 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:34:58pm

re: #170 publicityStunted

Sorry, but that makes about as much sense as saying "You feel the Koch brothers fund climate-denial groups and politicians who protect their fossil fuel profits. Others think scientists only research climate to get grant money. To each their own."

One of these things is not like the other.

My head is spinning

Ahhh people, what can ya do

179 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:35:09pm

re: #174 WindUpBird

I'm still wondering about who would bring a toy grenade to a bat-fight.

180 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:35:22pm

re: #177 SanFranciscoZionist

That's positive, really.

Hey, I love our healthcare system. I'm glad everyone had access to it, and I wish the mental healthcare system was 10x better. Its just one of those things that's nearly impossible to get right.

181 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:35:45pm

re: #166 McSpiff

I'm a Canadian. None of our occupy movement will be dying due to a lack of healthcare anytime soon.

Overall I agree.

I have three citizenships, Canadian being one of them. It is in the middle of three; certainly better than the US. Sometimes I feel like a crazy person for subjecting myself to the risks of living in the US but that's love for you.

The upcoming budget cuts in Washington state will unquestionably result in deaths of the most marginalised and ill (both mentally and physically). And yet we worry about the "violence" of the Occupy protesters.

182 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:35:46pm

re: #173 McSpiff

wub was right... there's nothing I can even say.

The whole point is that the social contract is completely broken, thats why people are protesting.

Image: Fro_Propaganda_One_Percent_3.jpg

183 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:35:55pm

re: #179 jaunte

I'm still wondering about who would bring a toy grenade to a bat-fight.

That entire story reads like the fight from Anchorman

184 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:37:00pm
185 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:37:47pm

re: #182 windsagio

I mean serious

wub was right... there's nothing I can even say.

The whole point is that the social contract is completely broken, thats why people are protesting.

Image: Fro_Propaganda_One_Percent_3.jpg

I disagree? Sorry, I'm literally one of the most comfortable humans in the history of the world. I'm a pretty big fan of the social contract. Sure, we can reform the system but I'll be one of the last to say we need to scrap the whole thing. The Occupy organizers I interact with are now suggesting this is the start of a revolution. Not interested, sorry.

186 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:38:35pm

re: #149 McSpiff

You feel like the wealthy are taking advantage of you. Others think the 'hippies' are taking advantage of society. To each their own.

There is little point in discussing this, or claiming to discuss this, in such terms.

Come back to the real numbers and talk of what they mean.

If my memory serves, the real growth in wealth in this country in the past couple of decades went 40+% to 1%, or 85% to 5% of the population. Throw in the fact that of elected representatives 94% of winners had the biggest political budgets, which if it had been based on $20 individual donation could be representative of democracy, but if corporations are people, how come they can't vote?

It really doesn't matter what one thinks of hippies or welfare recipients, this mix is not what made the USA great.

187 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:38:49pm

I worked in HIV/AIDS care in Vancouver, BC many years ago.

Each monitoring test (which was done quite regularly) cost over a thousand dollars, and was entirely paid for by the Canadian government. We actually had a couple of HIV+ American patients who had to pay that out of pocket and I believe it was still cheaper (or better care) than they could receive in the US.

188 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:39:11pm

re: #185 McSpiff

Your lack of empathy for people not as lucky (or morally superior) as you is terrible.

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:39:26pm

re: #185 McSpiff

You got yours!


good for you :)

190 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:40:02pm

re: #181 Alexzander

Overall I agree.

I have three citizenships, Canadian being one of them. It is in the middle of three; certainly better than the US. Sometimes I feel like a crazy person for subjecting myself to the risks of living in the US but that's love for you.

The upcoming budget cuts in Washington state will unquestionably result in deaths of the most marginalised and ill (both mentally and physically). And yet we worry about the "violence" of the Occupy protesters.

The American Health Care system is broken, and the financial regulations that allowed for the securitization of sub-prime mortgages and risk ratings of CDOs, CDS, etc is insane. Focus on that, stay within the law and work with police, I'll back that movement 100%.

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:40:36pm

McSpiff: I'm doing great! I got everything I need!

Windupbird: I have friends who are having trouble affording heat. And forget about health care.

mcSpiff: Yeah, that's their problem. Shut up, that's why! OHH CAAANADAAAA

192 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:42:00pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

I have trouble paying for heat. Thank god my current job in the US has a health care plan. Too bad I earn barely more than the poverty line and less than a 'living wage."

193 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:42:30pm

re: #191 WindUpBird

No you have it wrong, he's about to say they have it way better than slaves or medieval serfs did.

194 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:43:06pm

Real unrest = no good!

fake fantasy totally awesome pristine unrest where nothing bad ever happens and the police adore everyone = awesome!


too bad we don't live in Narnia

195 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:43:19pm

Filthy peasants, why must they be so loud? Also, let them eat cake.

196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:44:05pm

re: #181 Alexzander

I have three citizenships, Canadian being one of them. It is in the middle of three; certainly better than the US.

Better than the US because it's free? Or better physicians, facilities, etc?

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:44:15pm

re: #193 windsagio

No you have it wrong, he's about to say they have it way better than slaves or medieval serfs did.

You're doing fine! You haven't been eaten by cannibals yet

198 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:44:36pm

re: #188 windsagio

re: #189 WindUpBird

re: #191 WindUpBird

Like I said, focus on specific issues and I'll support you. No one should starve, freeze or die of preventable diseases. Raise my taxes to cover that, great. But I make no apologies for being comfortable, supporting the police, supporting the government or supporting the modern financial system or free market system.

199 Varek Raith  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:44:55pm

re: #195 Sergey Romanov

Filthy peasants, why must be they so loud? Also, let them eat cake.

Image: rqx9qs.jpg

200 Interesting Times  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:45:22pm

re: #193 windsagio

No you have it wrong, he's about to say they have it way better than slaves or medieval serfs did.

They have air conditioners and refrigerators. Duh.

With 1% love,
Heritage and Heartland

201 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:45:36pm

re: #199 Varek Raith

Image: rqx9qs.jpg

Then it's decided!

202 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:45:50pm

re: #198 McSpiff

We don't have a free market system. Thank god.

203 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:46:21pm

re: #176 McSpiff

Yup, all men equal before the law is a stupid idea.

That's not what you said though, you said "defying the law is taking advantage of society." That's just stupid, largely because that sentiment by itself doesn't address equality. The Lovings of Virginia defied the law, were arrested in order to have it overthrown, but only the most miserable racist would maintain that they were "taking advantage of society."

You should try taking ownership of the stupid absolutist thing you actually said instead of trying to deceptively reword the sentiment when called on it.

204 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:46:32pm

re: #202 Obdicut

We don't have a free market system. Thank god.

Yeah I debated the best way to state that. System of private ownership of the means of production?

205 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:47:00pm

re: #198 McSpiff

Man that meme's as old as OWS is.

Great article that answers your objections (article is originally from RS, not common dreams).

[Link: www.commondreams.org...]

206 Alexzander  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:47:08pm

re: #196 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Better than the US because it's free? Or better physicians, facilities, etc?

Better physicians of facilities for whom?
The US has better facilities if you earn more than 250,000 a year, or are a member of the Saudi royal family or Bin Laden empire.
I'd guess that you're going to be able to receive better care in Canada if you are middle class (and certainly lower class).

207 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:47:56pm

re: #204 McSpiff

We have a mixed economy. Currently too far towards the private ownership side, when it comes to stuff like health insurance and energy, here in the US.

And the vast majority of the Occupy people are not breaking any laws, or any laws more serious than millions of people do when they speed, trespass, etc.

208 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:48:08pm

re: #204 McSpiff

I think simply "Market System" is a good way to say it..

209 Achilles Tang  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:48:37pm

re: #198 McSpiff

re: #189 WindUpBird

re: #191 WindUpBird

Like I said, focus on specific issues and I'll support you. No one should starve, freeze or die of preventable diseases. Raise my taxes to cover that, great. But I make no apologies for being comfortable, supporting the police, supporting the government or supporting the modern financial system or free market system.

Most people do not disagree with that, but the issue in question is not simply free market system or not; it is responsible free market system or oligarchy.

210 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:48:49pm

re: #203 goddamnedfrank

That's not what you said though, you said "defying the law is taking advantage of society." That's just stupid, largely because that sentiment by itself doesn't address equality. The Lovings of Virginia defied the law, were arrested in order to have it overthrown, but only the most miserable racist would maintain that they were "taking advantage of society."

You should try taking ownership of the stupid absolutist thing you actually said instead of trying to deceptively reword the sentiment when called on it.

Freaking this.

211 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:48:55pm

re: #203 goddamnedfrank

That's not what you said though, you said "defying the law is taking advantage of society." That's just stupid, largely because that sentiment by itself doesn't address equality. The Lovings of Virginia defied the law, were arrested in order to have it overthrown, but only the most miserable racist would maintain that they were "taking advantage of society."

You should try taking ownership of the stupid absolutist thing you actually said instead of trying to deceptively reword the sentiment when called on it.

Ok, you're right my broad brush covered too much of the civil rights movement. If you're breaking laws you wish to change, that isn't taking advantage of society.

212 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:49:20pm

re: #198 McSpiff

your naievete about how unrest works is quite something


maybe your expertise is in being "comfortable"? Maybe stick to that? Instead of lecturing those of us who are not, who don't live in your glorious realm of Canadia and aren't lucky enough to bathe in its advantages

just a pro-tip! B,A,B,A,Start!

213 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:50:02pm

re: #206 Alexzander

There is no "special" health care in Canada for the rich? (Not counting American Concierge medicine.)

214 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:50:41pm

re: #205 windsagio

Man that meme's as old as OWS is.

Great article that answers your objections (article is originally from RS, not common dreams).

[Link: www.commondreams.org...]

such a great article

215 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:50:47pm

re: #212 WindUpBird

just a pro-tip! B,A,B,A,Start!

This does nothing.

Image: konami-code-tattoo.jpg

216 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:51:41pm

re: #212 WindUpBird

'How unrest works'. You don't get it, even if I supported every goal of OWS, I don't want unrest. If your method is unrest, I won't support you.

217 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:51:49pm

re: #211 McSpiff

So protest movements or revolutions in the past that are accepted as good aren't taking advantage of society, but any new one obviously is.

That's the Authoritarian version of "I have gay friends"

218 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:52:27pm

re: #211 McSpiff

Well, that doesn't work either. I'm sure rapists are breaking laws they'd like to change, too.

There's no broad brush that works here. But again, most of the Occupy people are committing no major crime. Many of them have been arrested despite committing now crime, and set free by a judge. Repeatedly.

219 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:52:44pm

re: #216 McSpiff

The Civil Rights Marchers method was unrest.

220 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:52:50pm

re: #216 McSpiff

'How unrest works'. You don't get it, even if I supported every goal of OWS, I don't want unrest. If your method is unrest, I won't support you.

Tell that to the civil rights movement

221 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:52:51pm
222 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:53:14pm

re: #219 Obdicut

jinx

223 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:53:16pm

re: #217 windsagio

I think the point is rather that if you don't want some law changed (as in, you intend to take advantage of it in the future), you don't break it. (I don't really agree for all cases or states.)

224 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:54:00pm

re: #219 Obdicut

The Civil Rights Marchers method was unrest.

True, but very disciplined unrest, at least much of the time.

225 goddamnedfrank  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:54:01pm

re: #216 McSpiff

'How unrest works'. You don't get it, even if I supported every goal of OWS, I don't want unrest. If your method is unrest, I won't support you.

226 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:54:06pm

re: #223 Sergey Romanov

I think the point is rather that if you don't want some law changed (as in, you intend to take advantage of it in the future), you don't break it. (I don't really agree for all cases or states.)

Thank you, I'm sure there's a million different ways to poke holes in that argument but that's what I was trying to say.

227 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:54:55pm

re: #223 Sergey Romanov

that's kind of irrelevant to the OWS protesters. Its not really clear what laws the actual protests are actually breaking, except for the occasional blocking the streets.

I'd argue that the police wading in with billy clubs (like PDX yesterday) on peaceful crowds should be a crime tho'.

228 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:55:03pm
229 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:55:24pm

re: #215 Obdicut

This does nothing.

Image: konami-code-tattoo.jpg

I DIDN'T WANNA TYPE THE WHOLE THING OUT :(

230 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:55:28pm

re: #224 SanFranciscoZionist

True, but very disciplined unrest, at least much of the time.

Sure. And a lot of that was the tactics. Camping overnight and offering free food = obviously going to attract the homeless and skeevy types. Bad mistake by the Occupy people. Strategic, tactical, whatever-- but it doesn't say anything about their character, the fitness of their goals, or any of the rest of it.

And I really am bothered by the cops continually arresting people who they've been told by a judge are committing no crime. I hope they sue. If a judge tells you you have no basis to arrest someone, you should fucking not arrest them. It's not hard.

231 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:55:49pm

re: #227 windsagio

Maybe; I'm just pointing out that's not what McSpiff was saying.

232 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:56:04pm

Its always amazing when somebody says an untoward but utterly revealing thing.

Here's a hint for the noobies out there. Don't double down in that situation. Just let it slide, have an errand you have to attend to.

You fucked up, own the mistake and go on.

233 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:56:19pm

re: #226 McSpiff

Thank you, I'm sure there's a million different ways to poke holes in that argument but that's what I was trying to say.

were it not for unrest, black people would be sitting in the back of the bus in 2011

or much worse, really

234 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:56:19pm
235 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:56:35pm

re: #215 Obdicut

also, awesome contra pixel art tattoo!

236 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:56:52pm

re: #229 WindUpBird

It was so hard for the geek in me not to say 'you got the code wrong, dummy!' (ala LR twice not BA)

237 Petero1818  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:58:20pm

I think that part of the issue here may in fact be the Canadian context. I too am Canadian (and comfortable), and have been struggling to appreciate the Occupy movement in Canada. Over the weekend, a Canadian conservative journalist wrote a thought provoking article on the Canadian Occupy movement, suggesting that it made little sense in Canada in its current form. The article is here: [Link: www2.macleans.ca...]

While I don't always agree with Coyne, I found myself agreeing with him in this argument.
Obviously the issues are different and more immediate in the American context and as a Canadian I am acutely aware of that fact.

238 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:59:03pm

re: #228 WindUpBird

unrest

Not all riots are good. Not every body who's angry is right. This mentality is one of the more disturbing aspect of OWS supporters. If you want to change something you're going to need a majority of voters, you aren't going to get what you want by civil unrest. We live in a democratic society and won't give in to the demands of those willing to make the largest mess.

239 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:59:36pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

They're not riots.

Your entire post is invalidated.

You're welcome.

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 4:59:57pm

re: #230 Obdicut

Sure. And a lot of that was the tactics. Camping overnight and offering free food = obviously going to attract the homeless and skeevy types. Bad mistake by the Occupy people. Strategic, tactical, whatever-- but it doesn't say anything about their character, the fitness of their goals, or any of the rest of it.

It does, to me, say something about the effectiveness of their strategy, though.

Eh, call me picky when it come to protests. I'm still down with the Panther who wants to deal with the anarchists by any means necessary.

241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:00:05pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

I really dislike the G20 Protesting types.

242 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:01:13pm

re: #216 McSpiff

'How unrest works'. You don't get it, even if I supported every goal of OWS, I don't want unrest. If your method is unrest, I won't support you.

In response, a relevant comment showing this is not new.

I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Counciler or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection. -- from Martin Luther King's "Letter from Birmingham City Jail", April 16, 1963

243 King of the Douche, now you may bow  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:01:55pm

re: #241 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I really dislike the G20 Protesting types.

The black outfits are slimming, though.
/

244 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:02:16pm

re: #242 kirkspencer

genius

the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice;

245 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:02:37pm

re: #242 kirkspencer

who is more devoted to “order” than to justice;

That's the whole of the OWS debate, LGF version in a nutshell. Well quoted!

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:02:42pm

also


DRINK

247 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:02:44pm

re: #242 kirkspencer

While King's words are wise and good, and while his point is well-made, let us please stop short of comparing those at the Occupy protests to the black marchers and their allies. They do not face anything like what those brave men and women did in terms of harassment from police and the community. At all.

248 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:02:50pm

jinx

249 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:03:46pm

re: #233 WindUpBird

were it not for unrest, black people would be sitting in the back of the bus in 2011

or much worse, really

You're absolutely right, and explaining why I support one movement and not the other might help explain my point.

The Civil Rights Movement decided that society was fundamental unfair and needed radical changes, they largely knew what changes they want. And they obtained them with the various Civil Rights Acts and repealing the Jim Crow laws. The replaced a fundamentally unfair society with one that was, at least on paper, more fair for all Americans.

I'm assuming that OWS is using unrest for the same reasons, that is to remove what they feel is a fundamental injustice and at least partially remake society, in what they deem is a more fair image.

I think the fact that people in the West starve, freeze or die of preventable diseases is fundamentally unfair. If that's what OWS is all about, I will absolutely admit I was wrong.

But my impression, from reading here, visiting my local occupy movement and discussing with members of others is that the Occupy movement goes well beyond those goals. That others having too much is fundamentally unfair. That companies being too successful is fundamentally unfair.

Populism isn't fundamentally fair just because it has wide support. Just because OWS uses the same tactics as the Civil Rights Movement doesn't make them equal in validity.

250 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:05:51pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

Hell, I'm not a protest guy at all. Crowds spook me. I'm about setting up meetings between constituents and their representatives, signing up people to vote, that kind of jazz. I still don't think Occupy is effective in any way, though I do note that people are at least talking about income inequality but I don't know if that's causative or correlative.

Either way, again: some of them have been being arrested and then let free when a judge said that there was no crime. Repeatedly. That is, to me, harassment by the police, false arrest, and fucking stupid. I'm not going to brush off the asshole anarchists or any of the other misbehavior from the Occupy people, but I won't brush off the misconduct and stupidity directed at them, too.

Like kicking them out, and letting them back in, and kicking them out, and letting them back in. Sheesh. What an idiot.

251 Dancing along the light of day  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:05:52pm

re: #238 Killgore Trout

Not all riots protests are good. Not every body who's angry is right. This mentality is one of the more disturbing aspect of OWS supporters. If you want to change something you're going to need a majority of voters, you aren't going to get what you want by civil unrest. We live in a democratic society and won't give in to the demands of those willing to make the largest mess.

FTFY.

252 windsagio  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:05:57pm

re: #247 Obdicut

The police harassment hasn't even gotten started. How long do you think the Civil rights movement lasted? You think people haven't been beaten up or gassed or shot in the head with tear gas bombs (only 2 for the latter afaik)?

253 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:06:44pm

re: #247 Obdicut

While King's words are wise and good, and while his point is well-made, let us please stop short of comparing those at the Occupy protests to the black marchers and their allies. They do not face anything like what those brave men and women did in terms of harassment from police and the community. At all.

I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken in this objection, Obdicut. I know it's not your intent, but you are belittling a movement against injustice because "theirs was worse." That they are not suffering as bad does not make their cause any less right.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:07:25pm

re: #249 McSpiff

But my impression, from reading here, visiting my local occupy movement and discussing with members of others is that the Occupy movement goes well beyond those goals. That others having too much is fundamentally unfair. That companies being too successful is fundamentally unfair.

I'm getting that from some few people connected to it, but not from the movement as a whole.

What I'm getting from the movement as a whole, however, remains somewhat unclear. They're good at explaining what's wrong, and a whole shitload is wrong, and they can describe a lot of it.

However, 'Capitalism broken, pls. fix ASAP' is not really an agenda, and neither is "Very pissed off!"

255 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:07:36pm

re: #253 kirkspencer

I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken in this objection, Obdicut. I know it's not your intent, but you are belittling a movement against injustice because "theirs was worse." That they are not suffering as bad does not make their cause any less right.

What human right is OWS fighting for?

256 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:08:19pm

re: #249 McSpiff

That others having too much is fundamentally unfair. That companies being too successful is fundamentally unfair

not my impression of what is being said

257 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:08:31pm

re: #250 Obdicut

Hell, I'm not a protest guy at all. Crowds spook me. I'm about setting up meetings between constituents and their representatives, signing up people to vote, that kind of jazz. I still don't think Occupy is effective in any way, though I do note that people are at least talking about income inequality but I don't know if that's causative or correlative.

Either way, again: some of them have been being arrested and then let free when a judge said that there was no crime. Repeatedly. That is, to me, harassment by the police, false arrest, and fucking stupid. I'm not going to brush off the asshole anarchists or any of the other misbehavior from the Occupy people, but I won't brush off the misconduct and stupidity directed at them, too.

Like kicking them out, and letting them back in, and kicking them out, and letting them back in. Sheesh. What an idiot.

If Jean Quan releases another dove, I may move into Oakland proper for the sole purpose of supporting the recall. Woman's driving me mad.

258 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:08:31pm

re: #254 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm getting that from some few people connected to it, but not from the movement as a whole.

What I'm getting from the movement as a whole, however, remains somewhat unclear. They're good at explaining what's wrong, and a whole shitload is wrong, and they can describe a lot of it.

However, 'Capitalism broken, pls. fix ASAP' is not really an agenda, and neither is "Very pissed off!"

I'm getting 'Capitalism is broken, we need to replace it'. If I'm wrong on that, I'll change my opinion accordingly.

259 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:09:32pm

re: #257 SanFranciscoZionist

If Jean Quan releases another dove, I may move into Oakland proper for the sole purpose of supporting the recall. Woman's driving me mad.

It's a protest. It's not the Hokey-Pokey. We can't just keep putting the protesters in, taking the protesters out...

260 Ayeless in Ghazi  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:09:46pm

Have a good Dwight folks.

Image: dwight.jpg

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:10:41pm

re: #258 McSpiff

I'm getting 'Capitalism is broken, we need to replace it'. If I'm wrong on that, I'll change my opinion accordingly.

Seriously, I think it depends a lot on the individual protester. I'm getting all kinds of feedback.

262 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:11:10pm

re: #259 SanFranciscoZionist

It's a protest. It's not the Hokey-Pokey. We can't just keep putting the protesters in, taking the protesters out...

Oh, she's just fucking with them.

263 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:11:42pm

re: #252 windsagio

The police harassment hasn't even gotten started. How long do you think the Civil rights movement lasted? You think people haven't been beaten up or gassed or shot in the head with tear gas bombs (only 2 for the latter afaik)?

What the fuck?

What I am saying: The amount of violence inflicted on the Occupy people is absolutely nowhere near the amount that was inflicted on the Civil Rights Marchers.

King's words are still absolutely applicable to anyone who's more upset at disorder than injustice. That doesn't mean that we should pretend that there's an equivalence in suffering here, either in terms of what is being protested or how much actual violence has occurred.

264 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:12:13pm

re: #253 kirkspencer

I'm sorry, but I think you're mistaken in this objection, Obdicut. I know it's not your intent, but you are belittling a movement against injustice because "theirs was worse." That they are not suffering as bad does not make their cause any less right.

I'm not belittling a damn thing. Back that accusation up.

265 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:13:50pm

re: #261 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously, I think it depends a lot on the individual protester. I'm getting all kinds of feedback.

Guess it just depends where the majority lie.

266 Killgore Trout  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:14:29pm

re: #258 McSpiff

I'm getting 'Capitalism is broken, we need to replace it'. If I'm wrong on that, I'll change my opinion accordingly.

I do think the label "anti-capitalist" protest seems to fit fairly well. There's certainly a strong anti-capitalist sentiment among OWS. This has been a top rated diray at DKOS most of the day...
Why postcapitalism?
It's a little too mind numbing for me to read all the way through but you can skim and get the general idea.

267 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:15:24pm

re: #258 McSpiff

I'm getting 'Capitalism is broken, we need to replace it'. If I'm wrong on that, I'll change my opinion accordingly.

this is not a black and white universe

capitalism has always been "broke" in some way. it's like when churchill said "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government"

fixing capitalism does not mean throwing it out and/or espousing some other kind of ism

in the multivaried universe of ows voices, very few are calling for communism

268 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:15:57pm

In the immortal words of Mr. Powers, "Yay, capitalism!".

269 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:16:12pm

From the Occupy NS's magazine:

There's some postal workers occupying the
Toronto Dominion Bank because they're so pissed
off at the banks they couldn't help themselves,"
CUPW national union representative Dave Bleakney announced to the crowd.

"No one, no politician, no police, and no capitalist pig in an ivory tower will ever deny us what is
ours. We're here to say if you don't give it to us, we
shall take it and this rotten system will be no more!"
said Bleakney as workers chanted, "So-So-So-Solidarity!" outside to support the sit-down protesters.
After being escorted out of the bank by police one
of the sit-down protesters, who only gave his first
name—Darcy

[Link: www.zcommunications.org...]

THAT'S what I'm against.

270 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:16:12pm

re: #264 Obdicut

I'm not belittling a damn thing. Back that accusation up.

It's the impression I received from this statement you made:

They do not face anything like what those brave men and women did in terms of harassment from police and the community. At all.

271 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:16:32pm

re: #267 engineer dog

Yeah. There are definitely anti-capitalists there. There are far more, from my unscientific survey, who think that capitalism needs much more regulation than it currently has, especially in the financial market.

272 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:16:54pm

re: #255 McSpiff

What human right is OWS fighting for?

Equality.

273 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:17:01pm

re: #265 McSpiff

Guess it just depends where the majority lie.

the majority of a zillion different voices is a zillion different opinions

we hebrews have a favorite old joke that we love to tell on ourselves: if you have 10 jews in a room, you'll have at least 11 opinions on any question

274 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:17:51pm

re: #272 kirkspencer

Equality.

What's that mean in real terms? What's the OWS version of the Civil Rights Act look like?

275 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:18:09pm

re: #262 Sergey Romanov

Oh, she's just fucking with them.

I don't think that's the idea, actually. I think Jean Quan is genuinely torn between supporting OWS, and wanting to let the protesters stay forever, and be in photo ops with them, and panic about what they're doing to downtown, and the law enforcement aspect, and the 'if shit happens, it's on your watch' aspect.

She just keeps changing her mind about what to do.

I think.

Maybe she's more Machiavellian than I'm giving her credit for.

276 Amory Blaine  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:18:20pm

Economic inequality.

277 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:18:26pm

"stuff is broken and shit and somebody needs to, like, fix it, d00d"

278 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:18:45pm

re: #274 McSpiff

Off the top of the head - the so-called "Second Bill of Rights"? That's been bandied about on kos for some time.

279 Wozza Matter?  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:19:04pm

re: #267 engineer dog

this is not a black and white universe

capitalism has always been "broke" in some way. it's like when churchill said "democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the other forms of government"

fixing capitalism does not mean throwing it out and/or espousing some other kind of ism

in the multivaried universe of ows voices, very few are calling for communism

Exactly.

Theres a world of difference between regulating the banks and everyone in the nation being employed by the government and their only being one supplier of bread....

280 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:19:52pm

re: #270 kirkspencer

Do you think that sentence is factually inaccurate?

The Civil Rights Marchers got savagely beaten, both by the police and vigilantes. They got murdered. They got fired from their jobs. They got jailed in large numbers. This was possibly because of the massive amount of racism that was perfectly acceptable in the country at this time.

This is a list of those who died.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I am asking we respect the memory of the dead, and the conditions that they fought for. Which includes the better treatment that the Occupy people are experiencing.

And sadly, if the Occupy movement was mainly black people, I think that they'd be treated worse, even today.

281 Petero1818  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:20:48pm

re: #261 SanFranciscoZionist

Seriously, I think it depends a lot on the individual protester. I'm getting all kinds of feedback.

And that may in fact be the problem. I was in Vancouver Canada last week on business and in their Occupy camp which was close to my hotel I saw the following causes represented in signs: 1) rights of first nations 2) environmentalism 3) animal rights 4) legalize drugs 5) fighting poverty 6) anarchy 7) Communists/socialists. - and quite frankly plenty of people who were just high and hanging out.

To me, the protest is almost just an opportunity for some to get out and protest. That concerns me because people more interested in protesting than the cause they are protesting for can be dangerous when forced to move by the police.

282 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:21:03pm
Peaking outside the box:
Canada’s place in the revolt

When does a movement become a revolt? Does OWS want to to become a revolt?

283 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:22:37pm

re: #274 McSpiff

What's that mean in real terms? What's the OWS version of the Civil Rights Act look like?

read up on the credit crisis of 2008, and how close we came to financial armageddon

read up on neighborhood blight caused by the foreclosure crisis

read up on our "real" unemployment numbers

read up on predatory mortgage lending to black people

read up on bailouts=>banks=>bonuses

take a look at what BoA is doing to people' unemployment benefits

check out the SEC and how they don't seem to be effective at all

examine where our middle class has gone

and that is just the tippy tip of the iceberg

all these things should be changed

but you don't care :)


hippiepunch away

284 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:24:12pm

re: #282 McSpiff

When does a movement become a revolt? Does OWS want to to become a revolt?

is everything in this country peachy keen and nothing needs to be fixed?

285 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:24:33pm

re: #283 WindUpBird

read up on the credit crisis of 2008, and how close we came to financial armageddon

read up on neighborhood blight caused by the foreclosure crisis

read up on our "real" unemployment numbers

read up on predatory mortgage lending to black people

read up on bailouts=>banks=>bonuses

take a look at what BoA is doing to people' unemployment benefits

check out the SEC and how they don't seem to be effective at all

examine where our middle class has gone

and that is just the tippy tip of the iceberg

all these things should be changed

but you don't care :)

hippiepunch away

I've read up on each and every one of your items. Now tell me what you want to do. But there are many solutions for that. Which do you support?

286 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:24:33pm

re: #283 WindUpBird

these things are what "concern me"


not hippies


I guess my priorities are different

hippiepunch away!

287 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:25:24pm

re: #284 engineer dog

is everything in this country peachy keen and nothing needs to be fixed?

Has anyone said that?

288 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:25:48pm

re: #265 McSpiff

Guess it just depends where the majority lie.

Ultimately, it will lie with organizers, if and when they emerge. That's where this will take shape, and be effective or not. Right now, we're just seeing the yelling.

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:27:02pm

re: #268 Sergey Romanov

In the immortal words of Mr. Powers, "Yay, capitalism!".

Now, my favorite line has always been the one where the Tick falls down an elevator shaft, yelling that now we see why communism does not pay.

290 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:27:06pm

re: #271 Obdicut

Yeah. There are definitely anti-capitalists there. There are far more, from my unscientific survey, who think that capitalism needs much more regulation than it currently has, especially in the financial market.

personally, i'd be happy if somebody submits a bill to outlaw the secondary credit market

it "does some work", as an economist friend of mine put it (echidne), like enabling banks to sell off mortgages and use the cash to make more mortgages, but in general it seems like a pretty dangerous form of economic activity to me

291 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:27:16pm

Stuff is broken, system is not fair, OWS has stepped up, guess we need to support them. If the General Assembly decides on revolution, revolution it is.

I got that all figured out?

292 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:29:41pm

re: #280 Obdicut

Do you think that sentence is factually inaccurate?

The Civil Rights Marchers got savagely beaten, both by the police and vigilantes. They got murdered. They got fired from their jobs. They got jailed in large numbers. This was possibly because of the massive amount of racism that was perfectly acceptable in the country at this time.

This is a list of those who died.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I am asking we respect the memory of the dead, and the conditions that they fought for. Which includes the better treatment that the Occupy people are experiencing.

And sadly, if the Occupy movement was mainly black people, I think that they'd be treated worse, even today.

It is not factually inaccurate, nor did I say it was. You are redirecting the discussion off the topic from which I began.

I used a quote from a leader of a movement against injustice to comment on the principle of disliking unrest. You objected because the members of OWS haven't for the most part suffered as the participants in the prior movement.

What message am I to take? Were you digressing off the point, and so I should simply have ignored you? Or was the point that this movement isn't as important - to which assumption I was objecting.

293 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:29:57pm

re: #285 McSpiff

I would start with Elizabeth Warren's platform, but more so. MASSIVE overhauling of bank regulations to prevent the credit crisis in 2008, to prevent the housing bubble from happening again, people who aren't holding the note selling mortgages. Foreclosure cramdowns. Financial transaction taxes. Outlawing this mumbojumbo bullshit where mortgages are packaged and sold and moved around like so many crates of oranges


that's my thumbnail sketch solution for the long term, solving the short term (16% real under/unemployment) is pretty much impossible IMHO, the damage has been done

but you don't care :)

294 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:30:08pm

re: #287 McSpiff

Has anyone said that?

if you agree that there are problems that need to be fixed, why take such a dark and radical view of people out protesting?

295 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:30:49pm

re: #294 engineer dog

if you agree that there are problems that need to be fixed, why take such a dark and radical view of people out protesting?

this precisely

296 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:31:21pm

re: #281 Petero1818

And that may in fact be the problem. I was in Vancouver Canada last week on business and in their Occupy camp which was close to my hotel I saw the following causes represented in signs: 1) rights of first nations 2) environmentalism 3) animal rights 4) legalize drugs 5) fighting poverty 6) anarchy 7) Communists/socialists. - and quite frankly plenty of people who were just high and hanging out.

To me, the protest is almost just an opportunity for some to get out and protest. That concerns me because people more interested in protesting than the cause they are protesting for can be dangerous when forced to move by the police.

And the thing is, I'm in favor of 1, 2, 3, some of 4, and 5, maybe even a skosh of 7--not to mention having no especial animus for people who are just high and hanging out.

This just doesn't mean I have to especially think that anyone else who nominally supports these is OK in my book no matter what. I'm still observing what they're doing, and how they're doing it.

297 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:31:47pm

re: #291 McSpiff

Stuff is broken, system is not fair, OWS has stepped up, guess we need to support them. If the General Assembly decides on revolution, revolution it is.

I got that all figured out?

a bunch of kids in a bunch of cities across the country is not the fucking politburo ferchrissakes

and who "decided on revolution"?

298 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:32:40pm

re: #297 engineer dog

a bunch of kids in a bunch of cities across the country is not the fucking politburo ferchrissakes

and who "decided on revolution"?

As I recall, the Tea Party had a number of people doing so.

299 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:33:23pm

re: #293 WindUpBird

I would start with Elizabeth Warren's platform, but more so. MASSIVE overhauling of bank regulations to prevent the credit crisis in 2008, to prevent the housing bubble from happening again, people who aren't holding the note selling mortgages. Foreclosure cramdowns. Financial transaction taxes. Outlawing this mumbojumbo bullshit where mortgages are packaged and sold and moved around like so many crates of oranges

that's my thumbnail sketch solution for the long term, solving the short term (16% real under/unemployment) is pretty much impossible IMHO, the damage has been done

but you don't care :)

This I absolutely agree with, I've written nearly the same thing here. But that's not what I've seen come out of OWS. If that's the message, then they've nailed it. Throw in single payer healthcare and you're well on your way to serious reform without revolution.

300 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:33:34pm

re: #291 McSpiff

Stuff is broken, system is not fair, OWS has stepped up, guess we need to support them. If the General Assembly decides on revolution, revolution it is.

I got that all figured out?

I'm deeply suspicious of some of the OWS folks, and the presence of the radical elements is why I can't say I "support" OWS as a movement (I think Obdi's position is similar). Moreover, as it evolves, the numbers of radicals (destructive ones, not "heroes") may grow. Nobody knows where it goes.

That said, I don't pretend that all OWS folks are about revolution, and yes, I have empathy for an average OWSer. Which is why I don't get overgeneralizations like this one. Or the need to make them.

301 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:33:54pm

re: #292 kirkspencer

What message am I to take? Were you digressing off the point, and so I should simply have ignored you? Or was the point that this movement isn't as important - to which assumption I was objecting.

The point was that King, at that point, had faced silence from the moderates in the face of mass beatings and murder. That is part of why he was so angry. That is the historical context of his speech.

How you got to me 'belittling' anything I have no fucking clue.

I was saying that if you're going to use the words of King, remember why he said them. It wasn't an academic inquiry.

302 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:35:14pm

re: #296 SanFranciscoZionist

And the thing is, I'm in favor of 1, 2, 3, some of 4, and 5, maybe even a skosh of 7--not to mention having no especial animus for people who are just high and hanging out.

This just doesn't mean I have to especially think that anyone else who nominally supports these is OK in my book no matter what. I'm still observing what they're doing, and how they're doing it.

Exactly.

303 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:35:49pm

re: #298 kirkspencer

As I recall, the Tea Party had a number of people doing so.

"2nd amendment solutions"

and 3rd rate minds...

304 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:37:18pm

re: #300 Sergey Romanov

I'm deeply suspicious of some of the OWS folks, and the presence of the radical elements is why I can't say I "support" OWS as a movement (I think Obdi's position is similar). Moreover, as it evolves, the numbers of radicals (destructive ones, not "heroes") may grow. Nobody knows where it goes. Or the need to make them.

That said, I don't pretend that all OWS folks are about revolution, and yes, I have empathy for an average OWSer. Which is why I don't get overgeneralizations like this one.

Isn't that the same argument that was made about the Tea Party? Look, if you attach yourself to movement with radical leaders, I don't really care how noble and misguided you are, you're not part of the solution.

305 Amory Blaine  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:37:34pm

We had protests here of 100,000 people in Wisconsin. OWS, as nebulous as it is, has an energy as well. This could be the beginning of the forming of a more coherent message. People are energized. There is no denying it.

306 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:38:00pm

re: #297 engineer dog

a bunch of kids in a bunch of cities across the country is not the fucking politburo ferchrissakes

and who "decided on revolution"?

Thing is, a bunch of kids in a bunch of cities across the country is not the Civil Rights Movement, either.

They're just a bunch of kids. Which is nice, but a. it does not do much, that will either come later or not, and b. when they behave badly, I shall scold them like a maiden aunt, and request that they clean up all that broken glass.

307 kirkspencer  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:38:27pm

re: #301 Obdicut

The point was that King, at that point, had faced silence from the moderates in the face of mass beatings and murder. That is part of why he was so angry. That is the historical context of his speech.

How you got to me 'belittling' anything I have no fucking clue.

I was saying that if you're going to use the words of King, remember why he said them. It wasn't an academic inquiry.

I am obviously not doing a good job explaining why I saw your response as belittling the OWS even though it seems so obvious to me. That's obviously my lack, tonight. I'll withdraw rather than draw out the discussion. Hopefully on another day we can discuss it when I can, I hope, more clearly make my point.

308 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:39:54pm

re: #304 McSpiff

Look, if you attach yourself to movement with radical leaders, I don't really care how noble and misguided you are, you're not part of the solution.

fear of "radicals"

tell it to jefferson and sam adams

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:40:06pm

re: #305 Amory Blaine

This could be the beginning of the forming of a more coherent message. People are energized. There is no denying it.

That's what I'm keeping an eye out for right now. This could be the beginning of something.

It could also NOT.

A lot of what I'm hearing right now I also heard in 2003.

I'm trying to keep an open mind, but not one so open that my brains fall out.

310 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:40:24pm

re: #304 McSpiff

Isn't that the same argument that was made about the Tea Party?

Who cares?

Look, if you attach yourself to movement with radical leaders, I don't really care how noble and misguided you are, you're not part of the solution.

OWS doesn't have any concrete "leaders" in the sense a party might have. It's a bunch of folks with different views. By making stupid generalizations about them you're not being a part of the solution too.

311 engineer cat  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:40:52pm

brbiab

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:41:58pm

re: #308 engineer dog

fear of "radicals"

tell it to jefferson and sam adams

Jefferson's love of radicals let him go on supporting a lot of crap that came out of the French Revolution longer than was strictly sane, IIRC.

Radicals are like salt. A little make the whole thing zing. Dump in the whole box, and you've got poison.

313 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:43:13pm

re: #308 engineer dog

fear of "radicals"

tell it to jefferson and sam adams

Yes, because every revolution ever has turned out as good as the American one. No, sorry, I don't give that type of thing a pass and hope it turns out 'peachy'.

314 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:44:23pm

re: #310 Sergey Romanov

Who cares?

OWS doesn't have any concrete "leaders" in the sense a party might have. It's a bunch of folks with different views. By making stupid generalizations about them you're not being a part of the solution too.

OWS has people with a guiding voice. That's just human nature. If you think otherwise, well, you might just be making a stupid generalization. Don't drink the kool-aid, no long lasting movement lacks leaders.

315 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:44:33pm

re: #313 McSpiff

Yes, because every revolution ever has turned out as good as the American one. No, sorry, I don't give that type of thing a pass and hope it turns out 'peachy'.

I've always admired Emma Goldman for coming home and saying that the Russian Revolution had turned to shit. No one in the American radical community wanted to hear it, but she wasn't going to play let's pretend about it.

Hard-headed lady.

316 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:45:52pm

re: #315 SanFranciscoZionist

I've always admired Emma Goldman for coming home and saying that the Russian Revolution had turned to shit. No one in the American radical community wanted to hear it, but she wasn't going to play let's pretend about it.

Hard-headed lady.

Exactly. Protest for the sake of protest is not noble, revolution for the sake of revolution is not righteous.

317 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:46:24pm

re: #314 McSpiff

OWS has people with a guiding voice. That's just human nature. If you think otherwise, well, you might just be making a stupid generalization. Don't drink the kool-aid, no long lasting movement lacks leaders.

Sorry, that's just handwaving. Name the leaders, prove they're leaders, quote their alleged revolutionary ideas. Until then? Don't make stupid generalizations. Or do. Who cares.

318 jaunte  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:47:24pm

I think Kalle Lasn made a mistake in naming the thing "Occupy" in the first place. It only describes a tactic, and it's a tactic that inevitably attracts people who want some confrontational action. It isn't about the underlying problems, or any proposed solution.

319 Amory Blaine  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:47:35pm

Packers 07 Vikings 00

320 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:49:04pm

re: #317 Sergey Romanov

Sorry, that's just handwaving. Name the leaders, prove they're leaders, quote their alleged revolutionary ideas. Until then? Don't make stupid generalizations. Or do. Who cares.

Start with [Link: www.zcommunications.org...] and [Link: reddit.com...] . The local leaders I know are personal friends (yes, I can be friends with people of radically different politics). If you want to take this off such a public forum, we can.

321 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:54:21pm

re: #306 SanFranciscoZionist

I watched the occupyPDX on my teevee, had it running for hours during the big deadline, and then the next night when they moved to Pioneer


if by kids you mean "my age" there sure were a lot of kids there

I saw a bunch of people my age, and I sure don't feel like a child

or is it that being a hippie makes you a child? i'm unclear on this

322 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:54:55pm

re: #306 SanFranciscoZionist

Thing is, a bunch of kids in a bunch of cities across the country is not the Civil Rights Movement, either.

They're just a bunch of kids. Which is nice, but a. it does not do much, that will either come later or not, and b. when they behave badly, I shall scold them like a maiden aunt, and request that they clean up all that broken glass.

bolded is apparently what "open mind" means?


unclear on this

323 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:55:53pm

re: #320 McSpiff

Basically what you're saying is that you've talked to some Canadian friends of yours who are also Canadian OWS people who are apparently informal leaders and from this non-representative sample you're making grand conclusions that OWS in general is somehow predominantly about a real bloody revolution (cf. #291). Not impressed, sorry.

324 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:56:09pm

re: #321 WindUpBird

I watched the occupyPDX on my teevee, had it running for hours during the big deadline, and then the next night when they moved to Pioneer

if by kids you mean "my age" there sure were a lot of kids there

I saw a bunch of people my age, and I sure don't feel like a child

or is it that being a hippie makes you a child? i'm unclear on this

I beg your pardon, I was quoting engineer's phrasing in my response.

I do see a lot of young people at these events, but you're correct, there are many of us Xers as well, and older folks.

325 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:56:46pm

I am just a bunch of kids #ows

326 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:58:07pm

re: #323 Sergey Romanov

Basically what you're saying is that you've talked to some Canadian friends of yours who are also Canadian OWS people who are apparently informal leaders and from this non-representative sample you're making grand conclusions that OWS in general is somehow predominantly about a real bloody revolution (cf. #291). Not impressed, sorry.

Never said informal, you did. Like I said, I'm not comfortable naming people here, but I alluded above. Look for the post about postal workers.

327 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:59:04pm

gotta run to the store quick, bbiab.

328 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 5:59:15pm

re: #326 McSpiff

Never said informal, you did. Like I said, I'm not comfortable naming people here, but I alluded above. Look for the post about postal workers.

That's not the point. Ah, whatever.

329 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:01:17pm

re: #328 Sergey Romanov

That's not the point. Ah, whatever.

I'm surprised you don't get this. Yes, OWS overall as a movement has no formal leadership structure. Yes, there are groups mobilizing more tents, more food, more money and more bodies. If you don't think they steer the movement, then no, nothing I say will convince you.

330 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:01:59pm

Seriously tho, I gotta buy my lunch for tomorrow.

331 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:05:28pm

re: #329 McSpiff

No. You don't get that a local example doesn't tell anything about OWS in other places. The so-called alleged leaders around the US and Canada may or may not be radical, but it sure is not to be decided on a say-so of a Canadian who knows several such local leaders.

You wanted to prove that Nova Scotia OWS leaders are somehow about revolution? Suppose you did. Now for the rest of them...

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:11:03pm

re: #331 Sergey Romanov

No. You don't get that a local example doesn't tell anything about OWS in other places. The so-called alleged leaders around the US and Canada may or may not be radical, but it sure is not to be decided on a say-so of a Canadian who knows several such local leaders.

You wanted to prove that Nova Scotia OWS leaders are somehow about revolution? Suppose you did. Now for the rest of them...

But Sergey, that's sort of the problem I keep running into in these discussions--making any sort of a general statement about OWS without being (reasonably) challenged seems entirely impossible.

They're like that last pea on the dinner plate, if the pea was made of Flubber.

333 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:13:38pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

But Sergey, that's sort of the problem I keep running into in these discussions--making any sort of a general statement about OWS without being (reasonably) challenged seems entirely impossible.

They're like that last pea on the dinner plate, if the pea was made of Flubber.

There are generalizations and generalizations. I would say "OWS is about violent revolution" is right out (without proper evidence). I think it's silly just on the face of it. Other generalizations may not be.

334 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:15:20pm

re: #332 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, yeah. That's the real criticism of them. They're amorphous. It means all the stupid scaremongering about them and the broad brushes is moronic, but it also means that the likelihood of them producing real momentum and having a focused effect is very slim.

335 makeitstop  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:18:19pm

Wow, I go away for a couple of hours and Killgore opens a Canadian branch. Go figure.
/

336 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:18:59pm

re: #333 Sergey Romanov

There are generalizations and generalizations. I would say "OWS is about violent revolution" is right out (without proper evidence). I think it's silly just on the face of it. Other generalizations may not be.

I used NS as an example. Look, no I don't have a webpage saying " All OWS members support violent revolution. Sign below". Happy?

337 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:19:50pm

re: #334 Obdicut

Well, yeah. That's the real criticism of them. They're amorphous. It means all the stupid scaremongering about them and the broad brushes is moronic, but it also means that the likelihood of them producing real momentum and having a focused effect is very slim.

It also makes "No True Scotsmen" a hell of a lot more effective. No one who does anything negative really represents the movement.

338 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:20:41pm

re: #282 McSpiff

When does a movement become a revolt? Does OWS want to to become a revolt?

Sometimes I wonder what would happen if they get angry enough to pull on the blue kepi's against the tri-corns...

339 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:22:48pm

re: #337 McSpiff

It also makes "No True Scotsmen" a hell of a lot more effective. No one who does anything negative really represents the movement.

No, what I'm saying is that no one really represents the movement, so it doesn't resemble a No True Scotsman at all. I'm saying there is No True Scotsman, period.

Do you understand?

340 McSpiff  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 6:59:28pm

re: #339 Obdicut

No, what I'm saying is that no one really represents the movement, so it doesn't resemble a No True Scotsman at all. I'm saying there is No True Scotsman, period.

Do you understand?

Understand, but absolutely disagree. Sorry, there is a movement, it has supporters, they represent the movement.

341 Obdicut  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 7:08:00pm

re: #340 McSpiff

Understand, but absolutely disagree. Sorry, there is a movement, it has supporters, they represent the movement.

All of them at once? What about where they contradict?

This isn't something you can just disagree about. You're not displaying any logic to your position.

342 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 7:21:23pm

re: #228 WindUpBird

unrest

More unrest

Nonviolent, or perceived as "violent", state-sponsored, tax-paid violence is always the conservative response.

343 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 7:22:22pm

re: #340 McSpiff

Understand, but absolutely disagree. Sorry, there is a movement, it has supporters, they represent the movement.

Which supporters represent the movement?

Can you be more specific?

344 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin  Mon, Nov 14, 2011 7:27:00pm

re: #280 Obdicut

Do you think that sentence is factually inaccurate?

The Civil Rights Marchers got savagely beaten, both by the police and vigilantes. They got murdered. They got fired from their jobs. They got jailed in large numbers. This was possibly because of the massive amount of racism that was perfectly acceptable in the country at this time.

This is a list of those who died.

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I am asking we respect the memory of the dead, and the conditions that they fought for. Which includes the better treatment that the Occupy people are experiencing.

And sadly, if the Occupy movement was mainly black people, I think that they'd be treated worse, even today.

[wingnut]That is simply untroo!!

Civil Rights was about good blacks like MLK against scary, skinny-tie metrosexual ones with those New Black Panther Malcolm X glasses!!!

MLK's way won! Malcolm X's lost, because MLK got white conservative Christians to like him!!

/conservative revisionism, 180 degree inverse of reality

345 Big_Iron  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 7:44:33am

Hearsay evidence. If his girlfriend told him aliens from the planet Zippity Doodah abducted her and impregnated her, I'm sure he would stand up for her.

346 Douchecanoe and Ryan Too  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 7:52:45am

re: #345 Big_Iron

You can't possibly be serious.

347 Obdicut  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 7:53:41am

re: #345 Big_Iron

The point is that he's saying she told him at the time, long ago. At which time she didn't attempt to sue, or get any money, or anything else.

And why on earth are you sure he'd stand up for her if she said that aliens abducted her? That's a kind of insane thing to say on your part.

If my wife said aliens abducted her, I'd get her mental help, not 'stand up for her'.

348 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 7:56:19am

re: #345 Big_Iron

> Hearsay evidence

And your point is?

349 wrenchwench  Tue, Nov 15, 2011 8:35:54am

re: #345 Big_Iron

Image: sleeper.jpg


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT
LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal
Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
The Pandemic Cost 7 Million Lives, but Talks to Prevent a Repeat Stall In late 2021, as the world reeled from the arrival of the highly contagious omicron variant of the coronavirus, representatives of almost 200 countries met - some online, some in-person in Geneva - hoping to forestall a future worldwide ...
Cheechako
5 days ago
Views: 156 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
2 weeks ago
Views: 321 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1