GOP Clown Car Arrives in Illinois

Entry of the gladiators
Politics • Views: 33,001

Here’s our thread to comment on the latest episode of the GOP’s three-ring circus, making its debut tonight in Illinois where Mitt Romney is expected to administer a severe drubbing to the other clowns. (Early reports say this is going to be the lowest primary turnout in Illinois history. These clowns seem to have lost their funny.)

Polls are closing at 8pm ET, about 10 minutes from now…

Youtube Video
UPDATE at 3/20/12 5:57:32 pm

Mitt Romney is the big winner — well, maybe not so big: Record Low Turnout for Presidential Primary in Chicago.

Chicago election officials predicted the lowest turnout in a presidential primary in city history.

It was 15 percent at 2 p.m. and the previous low was 32 percent in 1996, said Langdon Neal, chairman of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

“It’s going to be the lowest,” Neal said. “The real issue is” how low.

He said he was crossing his fingers that the turnout might reach 20 percent.

Jump to bottom

492 comments
1 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:50:44pm

Aaah. A clown car thread. Perfecto.

2 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:52:12pm
There's a fly on Rick Santorum's nose.
3 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:52:21pm

The important question is: which candidate is the Reitiarus and which is the Secutor?

4 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:52:28pm

Video has embedding disabled.

Lets try this:

Youtube Video
5 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:53:00pm

GOP Mental State This Week Evaluated As Going Through Phase Of 'Illinoia'

6 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:53:56pm

re: #2 Gus

Heh. Did you do that one?

7 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:54:20pm

re: #6 Charles Johnson

Heh. Did you do that one?

Yep.

8 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:54:32pm

Illinois and the GOP's Last Stand for Common Sense

The basic problem with Republican politics this year — and it is one unique in my experience — is that there simply is nobody in charge of it. Nobody's "fighting over the wheel" because a bunch of nutty folks from steerage took control of the ship in 2010 and threw the wheel overboard. "A sizable number" of Americans are catching on to this basic fact. Illinois could be the first sign that the Republicans intend to do anything about that.

9 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:55:58pm

Yeah, why you weepin BOZO?
Why's your smile out of whack?
Yeah, why you weepin BOZO?
Why's your smile out of whack?
Oh they brought you the hair of a duck
They should've brought you the hair of a yak.

10 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:56:44pm

re: #8 Lidane

Illinois and the GOP's Last Stand for Common Sense

because a bunch of nutty folks from steerage took control of the ship in 2010

Ooh, that's gonna sting. If they read it.

11 celticdragon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:57:33pm

re: #2 Gus

Pure awesome.

All he needs is the toad/Chet from Weird Science...

12 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:59:21pm

Predictions:
-- Turnout will be low
-- Romneybot will insert bipedal locomotion subassembly into sonic thoughtsharer
-- Santorum will emphasize that he actually won a strong majority of conservative primary voters (you know, the only ones who ever vote in general elections)
-- Gingrich will bluster but nobody will know what about because CNN will cut to something else three minutes into his speech
-- RONPAUL will just be focused on getting some more delegates by means unclear
-- Obama will laugh his ass off
-- Chicago Machine-Style Politics (TM) will feature heavily in at least three sound bites.

13 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 4:59:32pm

BREAKING: Racist, profane words among graffiti found in Swartz Creek, Clayton Township

Nothing to do with OWS or Tea Party or Rick Santorum, but surely we can all condemn graffiti, right?

This is so important, people!

//

14 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:00:58pm

Zero hour in IL.

Waiting for CNN to dump their exit poll data and declare a winner.

15 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:01:12pm

re: #11 celticdragon

Pure awesome.

All he needs is the toad/Chet from Weird Science...

I was starting to put more flies and a roach just before but then my Photoshop crashed.

16 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:02:33pm

re: #15 Gus

I was starting to put more flies and a roach just before but then my Photoshop crashed.

A message from god.

17 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:03:40pm

re: #16 Much Ado About Nuttin

A message from god.

Nurgle does not approve.

18 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:04:10pm

re: #16 Much Ado About Nuttin

A message from god.

The Giant Sweater Vest in the Sky has spoken!

19 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:05:13pm

They are voting against tyranny and communism.

20 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:06:30pm
21 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:06:53pm

re: #18 Gus

The Giant Sweater Vest in the Sky has spoken!

The man wears a sweater-vest with his name on it.

I usually fancy myself able to look past such things, but I cannot take such a person seriously.

22 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:08:48pm

re: #21 erik_t

The man wears a sweater-vest with his name on it.

I usually fancy myself able to look past such things, but I cannot take such a person seriously.

Is that a small uterus in the 'o'?

23 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:10:50pm

From just down the street a bit from me:

State Sen. Wendy Davis' office firebombed

State Sen. Wendy Davis' West Seventh Street office in Fort Worth was firebombed Tuesday afternoon, according to reports, but no one was injured in the attack.

According to scanner traffic, Fort Worth patrol officers were searching for an arsonist suspected of tossing as many as two Molotov cocktails into the third-floor office.

Anthony Spangler, Davis' communications director, told CBSDFW.com that a staffer heard a large thud at the door, and then the building's fire alarm went off.

Two staffers were in the office at the time, according to WFAA-TV news. One of them grabbed a fire extinguisher and put out the flames, which damaged the office.

A little about Wendy Davis in recent news (but you probably already guessed where this was going)

Dozens braved a steady rain Saturday to protest feared cuts to the women's health program in Texas.

State Sen. Wendy Davis (D-Fort Worth) made a very personal plea, telling the crowd that she used services from Planned Parenthood years ago when she was a single teenage mom.

"I, like many poor women, relied on that as my only sole source for health care," she said.

Davis worries that 130,000 women may suddenly lose cancer screenings and contraceptive services because of the battle over funding Planned Parenthood.

24 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:10:54pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

Is that a small uterus in the 'o'?

His wife wears the small penis.

25 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:11:08pm

re: #22 wrenchwench

I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor after reading your latest Page.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's starting to get some Twitter action too. What the hell is wrong with these people?

26 Ben G. Hazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:12:19pm

re: #11 celticdragon

Pure awesome.

All he needs is the toad/Chet from Weird Science...

ALL HAIL BILL PAXTON!

///

27 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:13:17pm

re: #26 talon_262

ALL HAIL BILL PAXTON!

///

Youtube Video
28 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:14:12pm

re: #25 Charles Johnson

I'm still trying to pick my jaw up off the floor after reading your latest Page.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It's starting to get some Twitter action too. What the hell is wrong with these people?

When people have convinced themselves that a fertilized egg is worth more than the woman that carries it, it's all downhill from there. Only my seventh grade biology teacher can save them.

I hope he's still alive.

29 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:14:19pm

re: #23 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

At least it wasn't graffiti.

30 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:18:14pm

re: #21 erik_t

The man wears a sweater-vest with his name on it.

I usually fancy myself able to look past such things, but I cannot take such a person seriously.

Is that an eagle inside the "O"?

Jeez, what a ham sandwich.

31 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:18:45pm

The 2012 GOP theme song:

Youtube Video

I see a clinic full of cynics
Who want to twist the peoples' wrist
They're watching every move we make
We're all included on the list

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

No nuclear the cowboy told us
And who am I to disagree?
'Cos when the madman flips the switch
The nuclear will go for me

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

I've seen the faces of starvation
But I just can not see the point
'Cos there's so much food here today
That no one wants to take away

The lunatics have taken over the asylum

Take away my right to choose
Take away my point of view
Take away my dignity,
Take these things away from me

Take away my family,
Take away the right to speak
Take away my point of view,
Take away my right to choose

32 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:19:16pm

The craziest bicycle race in the world:

Youtube Video
33 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:20:24pm

Okay, I just put the story about the Afghan Massacre guy having a history of being a tool on my FB. Here is a guy in High School's Response.

Yes it is very very disturbing and wrong what he has done, but talking down the military, its wrong, you have no idea what we go through, what you call stress in school is nothing to us, dont post this on facebook, enough people see it already and doubt us, but we protect you all everyday and sacrafice so much! you have no idea

What do I do?

34 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:22:38pm

re: #33 ProGunLiberal

Sit by a lake for awhile.

35 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:23:22pm

re: #33 ProGunLiberal

Okay, I just put the story about the Afghan Massacre guy having a history of being a tool on my FB. Here is a guy in High School's Response.

What do I do?

Tell him you know that your experience does not compare, then ask him why they don't all go on psychotic rampages, just an extremely small number of them. And thank him for his service.

Or what Obdicut said.

36 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:24:40pm

re: #33 ProGunLiberal

Okay, I just put the story about the Afghan Massacre guy having a history of being a tool on my FB. Here is a guy in High School's Response.

What do I do?

He's a worker, a grunt if you may. He's doing his job and it doesn't help if you insult his job.

Make your points without insulting. There's 2 sides to every story.

Un-Mom off.

37 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:24:48pm

Wow, the Twitter counter for the Fox News comments post is about to go over 2,000...

38 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:25:21pm

re: #33 ProGunLiberal

Okay, I just put the story about the Afghan Massacre guy having a history of being a tool on my FB. Here is a guy in High School's Response.

What do I do?

Millions of American veterans some how avoid killing women and children in their own homes in the middle of the night every day. What makes this guy deserve special dispensation?

39 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:26:05pm

Romney's off to a dominating start in IL - I suspect it'll stay that way. However, if the turnout is very low I wonder how the Paulians will sway the final number.

40 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:26:46pm

Here's how I can tell when a post goes viral: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

41 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:28:08pm

I took the Democratic ticket this round. In Illinois, you can't cross-vote in primaries.

For anyone interested in why I switched partys for the 2nd time in my life:

">I don’t feel free.

There is no freedom in any circumstance where the body is legislated, none at all. In her article, “Legislating the Female Body: Reproductive Technology and the Reconstructed Woman,” Isabel Karpin argues that, “in the process of regulating the female body, the law legislates its shape, lineaments, and its boundaries.”

Right now, too many politicians and cultural moralists are trying to define the shape and boundaries of the female body when women should be defining these things for ourselves. We should have that freedom and that freedom should be sacrosanct.
. . .
The year is 2012 and here we are, having inexplicable conversations about birth control, conversations where women must justify why they are taking birth control, conversations where a congressional hearing on birth control includes no women because the men in power know women don’t need to be included in the conversation. We don’t have inalienable rights the way men do.

Arizona has introduced legislation that would allow an employer to fire a woman for using birth control. Mitt Romney, a supposedly viable candidate for president, declared he would do away with Planned Parenthood, the majority of whose work is to provide affordable healthcare for women."

42 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:28:22pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Here's how I can tell when a post goes viral: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

So thats what irrelevance looks like.

43 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:29:21pm

re: #41 ggt

Good for you. Congratulations!

44 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:30:00pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Here's how I can tell when a post goes viral: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Irreelllevaaant!

45 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:32:29pm

re: #10 Oh geeze.

Ooh, that's gonna sting. If they read it.

The current heads of the GOP will be deeply, deeply offended by the implication that they've every booked a room in steerage.

46 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:33:39pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

Here's how I can tell when a post goes viral: [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Instant media has rocked our world. I was thinking today that the life and death of Trayvon Martin would be just a stupid statistic and knowledgeable only to those who read the crime logs in Sanford Fucking Florida. But for the social media.

Thank dog for it.

47 darthstar  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:34:09pm

From a friend of mine who is a chef at LDAC...apparently they don't like Jar Jar either.

48 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:35:10pm

re: #40 Charles Johnson

A Something Awful thread put up your story earlier. :)

49 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:36:14pm
50 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:36:23pm

Cuteness Break

I really, really needed that.

51 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:37:27pm

re: #41 ggt

Yeah!

52 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:38:44pm

I told the old people working at the election that I had a hard time researching the candidates because as of 1/1/2013 our district will have changed and today we are voting for candidates in a different district that we have today.

They all looked at me with blank stares.

I'm not having a good feeling.

53 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:40:53pm

I still really, really fail to see the mental gymnastics it takes to talk about the economy, taxes and jobs and then NOT to fund universal sex ed and contraception.

Where do these people think their tax money goes? Schools, parks, roads. All of which cost more build and maintain the more people there are to use them.

I won't even go into the obvious economics of contraception vs welfare.

54 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:43:22pm

re: #36 Oh geeze.

He's a worker, a grunt if you may. He's doing his job and it doesn't help if you insult his job.

Make your points without insulting. There's 2 sides to every story.

Un-Mom off.

You always show great wisdom..
When Jordan was fighting in Fallujah they got in a fire fight with terrorists..
They were shielded by woman and babies..In the end..Every terrorist..Mother and baby lie dead.
We don't have to live with the memories of walking through the dead and dying as babies scream with their last breathe.
Jordan took pictures and brought them home and I know he has the live with those memories the rest of his life. He is a hero

55 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:43:52pm

re: #53 ggt

I still really, really fail to see the mental gymnastics it takes to talk about the economy, taxes and jobs and then NOT to fund universal sex ed and contraception.

Because teaching people about their bodies and teaching them how to avoid pregnancy is evil, don'tcha know. Sex only has one purpose -- making babies. Anything that interferes with that is wrong.

More babies = more taxpayers and more jobs, so naturally things will improve in the long run. See?

///

56 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:43:59pm

Romney still has 56% of the vote, with 11% of the precincts reporting.

The fat lady won't have to stay up late tonight.

57 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:44:32pm

re: #53 ggt

I still really, really fail to see the mental gymnastics it takes to talk about the economy, taxes and jobs and then NOT to fund universal sex ed and contraception.

Where do these people think their tax money goes? Schools, parks, roads. All of which cost more build and maintain the more people there are to use them.

I won't even go into the obvious economics of contraception vs welfare.

All tax money goes to two recipients; deadbeat welfare slobs and the military. It's all black and white.

58 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:45:05pm

re: #54 HoosierHoops

But, I don't think I was insulting him. I just think they guy who did this was as asshat who deserves no excuse for what he did.

Although, there are issues with the military right now, and the fact that the way we prosecuted the war was doomed from the start.

59 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:45:45pm

re: #53 ggt

I still really, really fail to see the mental gymnastics it takes to talk about the economy, taxes and jobs and then NOT to fund universal sex ed and contraception.

Where do these people think their tax money goes? Schools, parks, roads. All of which cost more build and maintain the more people there are to use them.

I won't even go into the obvious economics of contraception vs welfare.

Way I see it, until the day comes that the IRS starts sending out a sheet in our tax forms that allows us to decide what we want our tax dollars to be dedicated towards, we're all gonna see them go to things we don't agree with. If folks can't accept that their money is going to things they don't like, I hear Somalia's lovely this time of year.

60 CuriousLurker  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:46:00pm

Sorta OT, but since this is a clown car thread...

Lizard family picnic

Lizardettes having tea

What KT's frogs really look like

Courtesy Ads of the World

61 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:46:08pm

re: #54 HoosierHoops

You always show great wisdom..
When Jordan was fighting in Fallujah they got in a fire fight with terrorists..
They were shielded by woman and babies..In the end..Every terrorist..Mother and baby lie dead.
We don't have to live with the memories of walking through the dead and dying as babies scream with their last breathe.
Jordan took pictures and brought them home and I know he has the live with those memories the rest of his life. He is a hero

Aw Hoops. What stories. How is Jordan doing? He still in the service?

62 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:46:43pm

The cable channels are now calling it for Romney the dog abuser.

63 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:47:17pm

Santorum Declares He's Won Illinois

explains returns can only be interpreted properly in light of modern scriptural truth and the pre vatican II position on transubstantiation

64 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:47:38pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

He's running away with it in the greater Chicago area, which of course dominates the population of the state.

65 wrenchwench  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:47:56pm

Coolest bicycle site ever.

Later, lizards.

66 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:48:12pm

re: #58 ProGunLiberal

But, I don't think I was insulting him. I just think they guy who did this was as asshat who deserves no excuse for what he did.

Although, there are issues with the military right now, and the fact that the way we prosecuted the war was doomed from the start.

I agree, but I'm guessing his reaction was that you insulted all the men/women in uniform. Probably need to re-read and clarify that sentence you posted.

67 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:48:27pm

6 Things Rich People Need to Stop Saying

All of a sudden, it's like you can't make huge amounts of money without people getting all pissed off about it. And it's only going to get worse -- with the election coming up and the weather getting warmer, this whole "Occupy" movement is probably going to come back strong. The 1 percent will feel even more besieged than before.

"What the hell?" you're probably thinking, if you're somehow both rich and reading an article with this title, "I didn't crash the economy!" You might even be tempted to take to a microphone, to defend yourself and your wealthy friends. But before you do, I want you to stop and ask yourself, "Will this make me sound like an out-of-touch douchebag?"

With guest appearances by Mitch Daniels, Mitt Romney, Herman Cain, Sean Hannity and many more

68 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:48:52pm

Record low turnout for presidential primary in Chicago

Chicago election officials predicted the lowest turnout in a presidential primary in city history.

It was 15 percent at 2 p.m. and the previous low was 32 percent in 1996, said Langdon Neal, chairman of the Chicago Board of Election Commissioners.

“It’s going to be the lowest,” Neal said. “The real issue is” how low.

69 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:49:11pm

re: #65 wrenchwench

Coolest bicycle site ever.

Later, lizards.

Oooh, I love the font the captions are written in. What is it called?

70 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:50:05pm

re: #62 Charles Johnson

The cable channels are now calling it for Romney the dog abuser.

SEAMUS.

Seriously, my friends who don't read politics were shocked, shocked I say when I relayed this old ass horrible story. SHOCKED.

71 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:50:18pm

re: #69 ggt

Oooh, I love the font the captions are written in. What is it called?

Serpent Tongue.

72 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:51:15pm

re: #70 Oh geeze.

SEAMUS.

Seriously, my friends who don't read politics were shocked, shocked I say when I relayed this old ass horrible story. SHOCKED.

I totally missed it.

Do I need to know?

I don't watch TV that much.

73 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:52:21pm

re: #69 ggt

Oooh, I love the font the captions are written in. What is it called?

That's "AveriaRegular."

74 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:53:14pm
75 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:53:22pm

re: #66 Oh geeze.

He saw my point of view. I then sent him a message about the issues with the Afghanistan War (namely, not dealing with Pakistan).

76 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:53:26pm

re: #69 ggt

Oooh, I love the font the captions are written in. What is it called?

AveriaRegular (I can't see it on the webpage because it isn't installed on my system, but was able to get the name from the site's stylesheet)

77 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:53:39pm

re: #61 Oh geeze.

Aw Hoops. What stories. How is Jordan doing? He still in the service?

Nope..He is out, Married and living back home.. I'm so proud of him and the Marines...

78 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:54:59pm

re: #72 ggt

I totally missed it.

Do I need to know?

I don't watch TV that much.

Romeny was going on a long car trip and put his dog in a kennel thingy and strapped him to the rough of the car. About halfway there the dog was so frightened it shit itself in terror. Rommney's response was to pull into a gas station, spray down the dog/kennel and then keep driving like nothing had happened.

And this was a 12 hour drive by the way....

79 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:55:06pm

re: #72 ggt

I totally missed it.

Do I need to know?

Watch this video - simulates and demonstrates what Romney's dog went through:

Youtube Video
80 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:55:16pm

re: #68 freetoken

Record low turnout for presidential primary in Chicago

So Romney won amongst those who give enough of a shit to actually be paying attention to the primaries at this point.

81 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:55:25pm

re: #68 freetoken

Record low turnout for presidential primary in Chicago

As my Tea Party co-worker said the other day, "Fuck these assholes, I'm voting for Obama."

82 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:56:18pm

re: #80 Targetpractice

re: #81 Kragar

Probably Bain Capital employees.

83 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:57:37pm

I expect we will now get to see Santorum throw some real Hail Mary demagoguery, as he attempts to stop the inevitable.

84 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:58:17pm

Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Trayvon Martin teen shooting case

Did Trayvon Martin stand his ground when Zimmerman came to kill him?

85 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 5:59:24pm

re: #84 Kragar

Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Trayvon Martin teen shooting case

Did Trayvon Martin stand his ground when Zimmerman came to kill him?

Ah, the knife could cut both ways --heh?

86 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:00:29pm

re: #84 Kragar

They don't call it the "Pursue with Deadly Force" law, so maybe there's a chance he'll be taken off the streets.

87 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:00:54pm

re: #85 ggt

Ah, the knife could cut both ways --heh?

Note to self, if I ever get into a fight in Florida, make sure I kill the guy so I can just claim I stood my ground in self defense.
///

88 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:01:48pm

re: #84 Kragar

Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Trayvon Martin teen shooting case

Did Trayvon Martin stand his ground when Zimmerman came to kill him?

You mean the white/hispanic guy could have been the agressor and the black kid the innocent victim?

Ya think?

89 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:02:11pm

re: #85 ggt

Okay somebody show me the threat that kid had over the big armed man. Unarmed. Alone. Stood his ground over what? How does the law apply with no visible threat at all? No stick no gun no knife. No threat. A punch in the nose is not a lethal threat under the law. It's assault and battery, not attempted murder.

90 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:02:30pm

re: #87 Kragar

Note to self, if I ever get into a fight in Florida, make sure I kill the guy so I can just claim I stood my ground in self defense.
///

Strange how laws apply to everyone, isn't it?

91 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:03:10pm

re: #84 Kragar

Florida 'Stand Your Ground' law could complicate Trayvon Martin teen shooting case

Did Trayvon Martin stand his ground when Zimmerman came to kill him?

Apparently, to the few defenders of Zimmerman, a 250lb man was at the mercy of a 140lb teenager. How do they know? Because Zimmerman was hurt, which could only have happened if Martin attacked him. So it was obviously self-defense, case closed.

//

92 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:03:13pm

re: #89 Daniel Ballard

Okay somebody show me the threat that kid had over the big armed man. Unarmed. Alone. Stood his ground over what? How does the law apply with no visible threat at all? No stick no gun no knife. No threat. A punch in the nose is not a lethal threat under the law. It's assault and battery, not attempted murder.

B, b, b, but he was a black kid in a hoodie and it was night and he had something in his hands, and he was out walking . . . .

/gah

93 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:03:49pm

re: #89 Daniel Ballard

Okay somebody show me the threat that kid had over the big armed man. Unarmed. Alone. Stood his ground over what? How does the law apply with no visible threat at all? No stick no gun no knife. No threat. A punch in the nose is not a lethal threat under the law. It's assault and battery, not attempted murder.

Don't you see the danger? The kid was Walking While Black, a clear and present danger!

94 allegro  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:03:56pm

re: #92 ggt

B, b, b, but he was a black kid in a hoodie and it was night and he had something in his hands, and he was out walking . . .

/gah

... and looking around!

95 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:04:36pm

re: #94 allegro

... and looking around!

THE HORROR

96 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:04:42pm

No witnesses, no survivor, no problem.

97 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:04:51pm

re: #94 allegro

... and looking around!

"I've been stalking this kid for the last couple minutes and he keeps looking at me!!!"

98 allegro  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:06:39pm

Just one question to anyone who would defend Zimmerman... do you want to live in his neighborhood with him?

99 Decatur Deb  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:07:54pm

re: #98 allegro

Just one question to anyone who would defend Zimmerman... do you want to live in his neighborhood with him?

Might be hard to get a pizza delivered.

100 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:07:58pm

You folks all seen this?

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- A girl who overheard part of an incident involving Florida teenager Trayvon Martin can help prove he was killed "in cold blood" by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, an attorney for Martin's family said Tuesday.

The girl, who was dating the 17-year-old, "completely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," lawyer Benjamin Crump told reporters.

The girl -- who he said does not wish to be identified -- "connects the dots" about what happened that day when she lays out what she overheard while on the phone with him, he said.

101 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:08:42pm

re: #93 Kragar

Don't you see the danger? The kid was Walking While Black, a clear and present danger!

The hoodie marked him as a gang member. The Skittles he was carrying were not concealed so he was obviously on his way to a rumble.

102 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:09:01pm

Hehe, Ron Paul is beating Newt in Il.

103 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:09:23pm

re: #98 allegro

Just one question to anyone who would defend Zimmerman... do you want to live in his neighborhood with him?

Sure they do, because so many of them are of a like mind, all Dirty Harry wannabes who take pride in carrying around heavy ordinance, silently waiting for the day when they can act out their fantasies of gunning down the "bad guy."

104 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:09:45pm

re: #78 jamesfirecat

Romeny was going on a long car trip and put his dog in a kennel thingy and strapped him to the rough of the car. About halfway there the dog was so frightened it shit itself in terror. Rommney's response was to pull into a gas station, spray down the dog/kennel and then keep driving like nothing had happened.

And this was a 12 hour drive by the way...

I never got that story James..I have had only one pet in my life and Winston is the most spoiled dog in the world.. He eats better than most..I love my dog...I won't judge Mittens cause maybe he just doesn't get it.. Who knows?
If you are worth millions by the 3rd grade maybe dogs are the same as hamsters in your value system. The story pisses me off...If the car is crowded Winston sits on somebodies lap and eats good.

105 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:09:50pm

re: #86 jaunte

They don't call it the "Pursue with Deadly Force" law, so maybe there's a chance he'll be taken off the streets.

Rehashing the disputed recording, it should be a simple task to verify whether or not there were any traffic cones deployed inside the gated community that night. If not then that interpretation makes no sense.

106 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:10:14pm

re: #98 allegro

Just one question to anyone who would defend Zimmerman... do you want to live in his neighborhood with him?

No, because the country club doesn't allow hispanics...
///

107 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:12:30pm

re: #60 CuriousLurker

Sorta OT, but since this is a clown car thread...

Lizard family picnic

Lizardettes having tea

What KT's frogs really look like
lol
Courtesy Ads of the World

108 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:13:19pm

Dog on the roof of a car.

Travelling at Interstate Speeds?

WTF?

109 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:13:55pm

re: #100 Daniel Ballard

You folks all seen this?

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- A girl who overheard part of an incident involving Florida teenager Trayvon Martin can help prove he was killed "in cold blood" by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, an attorney for Martin's family said Tuesday.

The girl, who was dating the 17-year-old, "completely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," lawyer Benjamin Crump told reporters.

The girl -- who he said does not wish to be identified -- "connects the dots" about what happened that day when she lays out what she overheard while on the phone with him, he said.

Yeah, heard about it earlier. Even showed it to one of the few Zimmerman defenders I've encountered. After snorting at the fact that she's not allowing her identity out ("If she's not lying, why is she hiding?"), he reiterated something that's become an article of faith to them: Zimmerman was injured, cops say those injuries match his story, case closed.

110 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:15:03pm

re: #106 Kragar

No, because the country club doesn't allow hispanics...
///

Sure they do. Someone needs to clean the bathrooms and wash the dishes.

///

111 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:15:17pm

Note for Republicans:

112 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:16:22pm

re: #107 Killgore Trout

KT
Yer frogs got nothin on my cats...

113 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:16:49pm

re: #100 Daniel Ballard

You folks all seen this?

Sanford, Florida (CNN) -- A girl who overheard part of an incident involving Florida teenager Trayvon Martin can help prove he was killed "in cold blood" by George Zimmerman, a neighborhood watch volunteer, an attorney for Martin's family said Tuesday.

The girl, who was dating the 17-year-old, "completely blows Zimmerman's absurd self-defense claim out of the water," lawyer Benjamin Crump told reporters.

The girl -- who he said does not wish to be identified -- "connects the dots" about what happened that day when she lays out what she overheard while on the phone with him, he said.

"The teen started to run, Zimmerman reported. When he said he was following, the dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that.""

He didn't do what the cops told him. Zimmerman should be prosecuted.

114 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:16:50pm

re: #68 freetoken

Record low turnout for presidential primary in Chicago

Do I win a prize?

115 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:18:18pm

bbiab,

doing laundry

116 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:19:08pm

I've been saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee for months now. He's been groomed and polished and vetted for years for this role by the GOP establishment. He's next in the line of succession and he knows it.

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

117 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:19:12pm

re: #109 Targetpractice

("If she's not lying, why is she hiding?")

Because she's not legally obligated to tell you her name? WTF.

Zimmerman was injured, cops say those injuries match his story, case closed.

Because being injured by a kid that you've got a 110lb advantage on and who you followed and confronted against police instruction totally justifies killing him.

118 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:21:41pm

re: #111 jaunte

Note for Republicans:

But they can still have a brokered convention!

/Starts humming Ray Stevens "You're Never Goin' To Tampa With Me"

119 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:22:22pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

I've been saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee for months now. He's been groomed and polished and vetted for years for this role by the GOP establishment. He's next in the line of succession and he knows it.

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

I think that's a popular line of thinking, but I disagree. The line of succession wouldn't mean dick if the GOP had any candidate more competent than Ronchelle 'Nine-Nine-Nine' Gingtorum.

120 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:22:42pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

A charade that the desperate wingnut base refuses to give up on.

Fine by me. Let them spend the next few months destroying Mitt.

121 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:23:10pm

Romney's talking now about all the people he helped in his business career.

122 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:24:13pm
123 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:24:19pm

re: #121 jaunte

Romney's talking now about all the people he helped in his business career.

"I've helped many owners restructure and figure out who to fire."

124 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:24:29pm

MSNBC needs to be sued for subjecting its viewers to cruel and unusual punishment by subjecting us to Romney and/or Santorum's bullshit.

125 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:25:09pm

Herp Derp

126 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:25:23pm
127 Killgore Trout  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:25:25pm

re: #112 Daniel Ballard

KT
Yer frogs got nothin on my cats...

Nice!

128 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:25:27pm

oh in context that was to a lame joke about Obama...

129 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:26:01pm
130 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:26:05pm
131 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:26:14pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

I've been saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee for months now. He's been groomed and polished and vetted for years for this role by the GOP establishment. He's next in the line of succession and he knows it.

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

It was inevitable, and yet, I still thank Ricky, Newt, and Crazy Uncle Ron for blunting the spear. Come the GOP convention, what we're going to see is a sad attempt to reinvent Willard as some "every man" that the people of America should put their hopes and dreams into, which might as well be a wake for the death of the GOP as a viable political party.

132 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:27:10pm

This is like watching lemmings preparing to march off a cliff...

133 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:27:28pm

Smash your commie curly bulbs, people! Smash 'em!

134 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:27:34pm

Hoover Dam/Interstate freeways built with government funding...dumbass.

135 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:27:55pm

re: #122 jaunte

[Embedded content]

No, now that Romney's won the state, he's playing to a national audience of know-nothings again. He knows he won't win IL in the general, so out comes all the anti-Chicago (e.g., "Chicago thugs") rhetoric again.

Romney, who's about as urban and elite as it gets, will continue to bash big cities and pretend like he didn't spend 4 years at Harvard getting two grad degrees. He's phony to the core...as legit as a 13-dollar bill.

136 jamesfirecat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:28:04pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

I've been saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee for months now. He's been groomed and polished and vetted for years for this role by the GOP establishment. He's next in the line of succession and he knows it.

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

One hell of an expensive charade for Mitt Romney.

137 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:28:12pm

Jeez, Mitt Romney is so full of it it's stunning.

Relentlessly complaining about the government in one breath, and then in the very next praising the Interstate system and Hoover Dam.

Derp.

138 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:28:43pm
139 allegro  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:28:48pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

One hell of an expensive charade for Mitt Romney.

.

Everyone needs a hobby

140 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:29:13pm

re: #117 Lidane

Because she's not legally obligated to tell you her name? WTF.

You know how it works, if a person doesn't walk into the spotlight to present an open target for tomatoes and/or death threats, then they're "obviously" being dishonest.

Because being injured by a kid that you've got a 110lb advantage on and who you followed and confronted against police instruction totally justifies killing him.

Like I said, these are all Dirty Harry wannabes, who brag about carrying guns big enough to blast a hole in a kid Martin's size, and run under the one-track mindset that says "Anybody who so much as throws a punch at me is a threat and thus a target."

141 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:29:54pm
142 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:31:38pm
143 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:33:42pm
144 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:33:45pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

I've been saying that Romney will be the GOP nominee for months now. He's been groomed and polished and vetted for years for this role by the GOP establishment. He's next in the line of succession and he knows it.

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

Definitely, the only thing that really slowed Romney down, besides an utter lack of charisma/authenticity/non-robotic human qualities, was religion. Now that the GOP is more Church than political party, his Mormonism didn't help and he couldn't match Santorum in over-the-top bible thumpery. But the establishment hates Santorum and everyone else. So it's been ordained for months. Moreover, it's how the GOP rolls: if you run for the nod and come in 2nd, it's "your turn" next time around. See McCain, Dole, Bush Sr., Reagan.

145 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:34:29pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

You know how it works, if a person doesn't walk into the spotlight to present an open target for tomatoes and/or death threats, then they're "obviously" being dishonest.

That just kills me. She's a kid who basically overheard her boyfriend get murdered. Why should she be obligated to tell these racist assholes her name so they might be inclined to believe her?

Like I said, these are all Dirty Harry wannabes, who brag about carrying guns big enough to blast a hole in a kid Martin's size, and run under the one-track mindset that says "Anybody who so much as throws a punch at me is a threat and thus a target."

Dirty Harry wannabes who would probably end up breaking their nose or knocking out a tooth firing a gun because they wouldn't know how to handle the recoil. Morons.

146 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:36:20pm

Nate Silver or Andy Borowitz?

147 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:36:42pm

Beware....I have the twitter, now I too can join in the internet version of Tourrette's!

148 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:37:12pm

re: #133 jaunte

Smash your commie curly bulbs, people! Smash 'em!

That reminds me - one of the communist curly bulbs my then-wife bought back somewhere in the vicinity of 6 years ago burned out a couple of weeks ago.

When we split up, I took every one of them out of the house because I was still pissed about how much they cost relative to incandescents. That was 2007. She must have bought them at least a year before that.

149 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:39:45pm

re: #148 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

That reminds me - one of the communist curly bulbs my then-wife bought back somewhere in the vicinity of 6 years ago burned out a couple of weeks ago.

When we split up, I took every one of them out of the house because I was still pissed about how much they cost relative to incandescents. That was 2007. She must have bought them at least a year before that.

See how commies are?

150 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:40:20pm

re: #145 Lidane

Dirty Harry wannabes who would probably end up breaking their nose or knocking out a tooth firing a gun because they wouldn't know how to handle the recoil. Morons.

Dirty Harry wannabes always manage to hurt someone else first, though.

151 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:41:01pm

re: #116 Charles Johnson

This whole round of primaries has really been nothing but a charade.

it's an enigma wrapped in a charade wrapped in lies wrapped in a deep fried snickers bar

152 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:41:15pm

re: #149 Charles Johnson

See how commies are?

We must remain true to the incandescent light of democracy, in freedom from fear, through the strength and purity of our precious bodily fluids.

153 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:41:22pm

re: #150 The Ghost of a Flea

Dirty Harry wannabes always manage to hurt someone else first, though.

True. Because they're morons. That kind of stupid doesn't need a gun. It needs common sense.

154 allegro  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:41:32pm

re: #145 Lidane

That just kills me. She's a kid who basically overheard her boyfriend get murdered. Why should she be obligated to tell these racist assholes her name so they might be inclined to believe her?

I'm sitting here with Pandora radio playing Cream, Hendrix, Beatles... music I was listening to when I was about her age. It breaks my heart to think about what this young woman will now carry with her for the rest of her life. She should be thinking about her prom and graduating from high school, looking forward to a bright future... not her boyfriend's funeral.

155 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:41:37pm

re: #144 palomino

Definitely, the only thing that really slowed Romney down, besides an utter lack of charisma/authenticity/non-robotic human qualities, was religion. Now that the GOP is more Church than political party, his Mormonism didn't help and he couldn't match Santorum in over-the-top bible thumpery. But the establishment hates Santorum and everyone else. So it's been ordained for months. Moreover, it's how the GOP rolls: if you run for the nod and come in 2nd, it's "your turn" next time around. See McCain, Dole, Bush Sr., Reagan.

Didn't help?

If he had been a Presbyterian, he would have been the nominee four states ago. Ten.

156 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:43:25pm

Watching Santorum's congratulations speech on CNN right now.

Little weird watching the Southern party celebrate the election of Abraham Lincoln.

157 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:43:37pm

re: #145 Lidane

That just kills me. She's a kid who basically overheard her boyfriend get murdered. Why should she be obligated to tell these racist assholes her name so they might be inclined to believe her?

Because they wanna know who to send the hate mail to, no doubt. Even though call logs prove that she was talking with him, her story turns "George Zimmerman: Vigilante Hero" into "George Zimmerman: Craven Murderer," and that just won't do. Especially not when a case against him might call a law they support into question.

Dirty Harry wannabes who would probably end up breaking their nose or knocking out a tooth firing a gun because they wouldn't know how to handle the recoil. Morons.

The kind of wannabes who think that shooting another human being is a-okay, provided that you felt "threatened." That it's downright patriotic to "stand your ground" by shooting an unarmed kid who eyewitnesses say cried out for help.

158 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:43:44pm

Bugs Bunny was prescient, I tell ya. A regular Nostrodamus.

Youtube Video
159 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:45:11pm

re: #155 To hold my temper, most of the time.

Didn't help?

If he had been a Presbyterian, he would have been the nominee four states ago. Ten.

Yeah, I guess "didn't help" is an understatement.

But he's also a flip-flopping "Massachusetts moderate," which didn't help much either, particularly down south.

160 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:45:20pm

re: #140 Targetpractice

You know how it works, if a person doesn't walk into the spotlight to present an open target for tomatoes and/or death threats, then they're "obviously" being dishonest.

Like I said, these are all Dirty Harry wannabes, who brag about carrying guns big enough to blast a hole in a kid Martin's size, and run under the one-track mindset that says "Anybody who so much as throws a punch at me is a threat and thus a target."

Sounds like a coward to me, or as in Shoot Em Up - "a pussy with a gun in his hand".

161 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:45:41pm

re: #156 BongCrodny

Watching Santorum's congratulations speech on CNN right now.

Little weird watching the Southern party celebrate the election of Abraham Lincoln.

i could have sworn he said the spaghettisburg address

162 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:46:20pm

re: #156 BongCrodny

Watching Santorum's congratulations speech on CNN right now.

Little weird watching the Southern party celebrate the election of Abraham Lincoln.

Especially since so many of them hate Lincoln and think he's a tyrant. (See: Luap Nor and his idiot army).

163 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:47:44pm

Zedushka and I are driving to Canada tomorrow, it's our granddaughter's Bat Mitzvah.

164 Decider  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:48:08pm
"Meh, sure." - Romney Voter
165 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:48:56pm

re: #156 BongCrodny

Watching Santorum's congratulations speech on CNN right now.

Little weird watching the Southern party celebrate the election of Abraham Lincoln.

Nothing is quite as funny as listening to the GOP proclaim themselves the "Party of Lincoln" as they try to drag America back to the Ante Bellum days.

166 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:49:58pm

re: #151 engineer cat

it's an enigma wrapped in a charade wrapped in lies wrapped in a deep fried snickers bar

Hey, that's my Snickers bar.

167 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:50:15pm

Santorum mentions 'global warming,' gets a guffaw and some boos from the crowd. They're well-trained.

168 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:51:11pm
169 Charles Johnson  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:52:12pm

What we learn from Santorum's concession speech: he REALLY does hate science. A lot. His daddy didn't come from no ape.

170 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:52:18pm

so um trying to learn this twitter thing, i believe I am under @dreggas. Still trying to figure out how to tweet from my phone and not just reply to tweets.

171 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:52:22pm

Santorum Elected President Of Making Sarcastic Cracks

free market theory predicts economy will be really embarrassed and give us its lunch money

172 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:52:58pm

re: #162 Lidane

Especially since so many of them hate Lincoln and think he's a tyrant. (See: Luap Nor and his idiot army).

What!? Next thing you'll tell me some of them vote against their own interests on a regular basis.

173 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:53:03pm
174 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:53:08pm

re: #89 Daniel Ballard

Okay somebody show me the threat that kid had over the big armed man. Unarmed. Alone. Stood his ground over what? How does the law apply with no visible threat at all? No stick no gun no knife. No threat. A punch in the nose is not a lethal threat under the law. It's assault and battery, not attempted murder.

Walking While Black is apparently a capital offense in Florida.

175 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:53:21pm
176 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:54:15pm

re: #163 Learned Mother of Zion

Zedushka and I are driving to Canada tomorrow, it's our granddaughter's Bat Mitzvah.

Are you going to need an interpreter? I do speak fluent Canuck.

177 Kragarghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:55:31pm

re: #175 Interesting Times

It is obvious the people of Illinois don't take their faith seriously.

178 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:55:58pm

re: #176 Much Ado About Nuttin

Are you going to need an interpreter? I do speak fluent Canuck.

I know my way aboot, eh!

179 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:56:24pm

re: #169 Charles Johnson

What we learn from Santorum's concession speech: he REALLY does hate science. A lot. His daddy didn't come from no ape.

Someone needs to mention to him he's still an ape.

180 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:56:43pm

re: #169 Charles Johnson

What we learn from Santorum's concession speech: he REALLY does hate science. A lot. His daddy didn't come from no ape.

De-phlogisticated air is harmless...and plant food!

181 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:57:07pm

re: #170 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance

so um trying to learn this twitter thing, i believe I am under @dreggas. Still trying to figure out how to tweet from my phone and not just reply to tweets.

Don't forget to flap your wings.

182 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:58:23pm

re: #164 Decider


Image: gopsearch.gif

183 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:58:28pm
184 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 6:58:35pm

re: #179 Much Ado About Nuttin

Someone needs to mention to him he's still an ape.

Dr. Zauis and Santorum would probably get along together pretty well.

185 William Barnett-Lewis  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:00:00pm

re: #144 palomino

Definitely, the only thing that really slowed Romney down, besides an utter lack of charisma/authenticity/non-robotic human qualities, was religion. Now that the GOP is more Church than political party, his Mormonism didn't help and he couldn't match Santorum in over-the-top bible thumpery. But the establishment hates Santorum and everyone else. So it's been ordained for months. Moreover, it's how the GOP rolls: if you run for the nod and come in 2nd, it's "your turn" next time around. See McCain, Dole, Bush Sr., Reagan.

And terrifyingly for 2016 it'll be Torquemada Jr of the American Falange's turn...

186 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:00:50pm
187 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:02:00pm

re: #178 Learned Mother of Zion

I know my way aboot, eh!

What province are you heading to, Ontario? Just remember, Toronto is pronounced 'Taronna'.

188 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:02:39pm
189 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:02:42pm

re: #183 jaunte

Think about it, this is the crowd that still plays "Born in the USA" at rallies. Don't think anybody at this point thinks they've taken two seconds to read over the lyrics.

190 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:03:38pm

So while folding laundry I watched Santorum ramble on and on without a teleprompter. Why did I do this, no good reason.

First, he railed against government helping people, then said he grew-up in public housing.

Second, He said he woud not change with the climate.

Someone, please explain that last one to me.

191 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:04:00pm

Romney's advantage in money is huge. But if GOP voters were really passionate about Rick, he'd be getting more financial love. I think a lot of Republicans like him, but know deep down that he couldn't win a general election.

And his statements over the past few weeks have just exacerbated the situation.

1) Pisses off women with his contraception position and talk of "accepting what God gave you" when the "gift" is a rapist's baby.

2) Pisses off many Hispanics with talk of "You can join the Union, Puerto Rico, when you guys learn to speak English." Many Hispanics like their language and culture, and don't appreciate a guy taking a giant dump on them.

3) Pisses off most men (let's be honest) with his talk of banning porn. Even conservatives, maybe especially conservatives, like to look at porn.

192 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:04:11pm

Wow..Just went to the mailbox..Maybe I shouldn't say this..But The numbers of my folks inheritance is coming to light.. My life is going to change..
I'm stunned..I got the paperwork to get signed from TransAmerica.. I had no idea..We used to hang around there cause the best Chinese joints are in the shadows and it was fun hanging out in SF in our 20's..Pops did a huge policy with them..Who knew?

193 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:05:15pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

One hell of an expensive charade for Mitt Romney.

Payoff must be worth it. Just ask Blago, he wanted the POTUS too!

194 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:05:24pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

Congratulations; maybe you can take your new lady friend back with you.

195 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:06:12pm

re: #187 Much Ado About Nuttin

What province are you heading to, Ontario? Just remember, Toronto is pronounced 'Taronna'.

Yeah I'm going ta Taronna.

196 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:06:18pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

Think about it, this is the crowd that still plays "Born in the USA" at rallies. Don't think anybody at this point thinks they've taken two seconds to read over the lyrics.

Plus the fact that it's a Springsteen song, and the Boss has made it clear that he likes Republicans about as much as the Dixie Chicks do.

197 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:08:02pm

record low GOP primary turnout

198 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:09:20pm

re: #195 Learned Mother of Zion

Yeah I'm going ta Taronna.

Remember, Canadians drive on the right hand side of the road, just like Americans, when we obey the traffic laws.

Don't let our funny money scare you, it's still spendable.

199 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:09:34pm

re: #179 Much Ado About Nuttin

Someone needs to mention to him he's still an ape.

Why would you insult apes like that?

Even apes will take time out of their day to feed babies of a different stripe.

200 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:09:59pm

re: #198 Much Ado About Nuttin

Remember, Canadians drive on the right hand side of the road, just like Americans, when we obey the traffic laws.

Don't let our funny money scare you, it's still spendable.

Except those crazy Toonies. I don't know who they think they're fooling.

201 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:11:41pm

What I couldn't get over during Romney's speech is he kept referring to the #1 factor in economic freedom - - -

and it wasn't Family Planning.

Really?

202 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:12:29pm

re: #200 erik_t

Except those crazy Toonies. I don't know who they think they're fooling.

If you're sneaky you can trade one of those for two loonies.

203 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:13:05pm

re: #198 Much Ado About Nuttin

Remember, Canadians drive on the right hand side of the road, just like Americans, when we obey the traffic laws.

Don't let our funny money scare you, it's still spendable.

It weirds me out to see SPEED LIMIT 100

Also, they took down all the French traffic signs on the 401 from Windsor to London.

204 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:13:06pm

Now, I voted for Obama in the Primary today.

Is anyone reporting how many people (%) turned out for the Democrats today. I understand Laup Nor beat out Gingrich.

205 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:13:10pm

re: #197 windupbird is in the gravity well

record low GOP primary turnout

How the GOP snuffed it.

206 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:13:19pm

More vigilantes:
Pro-Planned Parenthood Texas State Senator Wendy Davis’s Office Firebombed

207 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:14:30pm

re: #206 jaunte

More vigilantes:
Pro-Planned Parenthood Texas State Senator Wendy Davis’s Office Firebombed

Lucky for her it was just a fire bomb and not graffiti.

//

208 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:14:59pm

re: #206 jaunte

More vigilantes:
Pro-Planned Parenthood Texas State Senator Wendy Davis’s Office Firebombed

But dude, did you see that Occupy graffiti? Serious business.

209 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:16:06pm

re: #207 Gus

re: #208 goddamnedfrank
Unfortunately, I'm sure there are some people looking at that picture and thinking they could make a bigger fire.

210 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:16:10pm

re: #197 windupbird is in the gravity well

record low GOP primary turnout

Bummer.

//

211 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:17:27pm

re: #208 goddamnedfrank

But dude, did you see that Occupy graffiti? Serious business.

Things will get worse unless bipartisanship with Fox News viewers/commenters improves.

212 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:17:28pm

re: #197 windupbird is in the gravity well

record low GOP primary turnout

#FiredUpBase

213 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:18:05pm

re: #203 Learned Mother of Zion

It weirds me out to see SPEED LIMIT 100

Well then ignore them.
Metric is just too common anyway.

Also, they took down all the French traffic signs on the 401 from Windsor to London.

Windsor to London? I thought you were going to Canada, not Britain.

I used to work for London Life and spent an interesting 2 weeks there. At that time women outnumbered men two to one.

214 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:18:17pm

I'm still trying to shake the stupid out of my ears after listening to Santorum. Man really needs a speechwriter and teleprompter.

What an idiot.

215 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:18:58pm

Whoa. Michelle really did look fantastic on Letterman last night.

216 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:19:38pm

re: #207 Gus

Lucky for her it was just a fire bomb and not graffiti.

//

Someone's still mad about that "domestic terrorists" warning.

217 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:20:01pm

re: #194 jaunte

Congratulations; maybe you can take your new lady friend back with you.

It's kindof weird...I'm already planning in my head to to visit Napa this summer with her..We are a new couple..She knows what's going on..This could get complicated..But..To take her back home..To walk empty lanes in Yountville late at night and talk..To eat the best food in the world and hike the hills...To spend an afternoon at Sterling Winery overlooking the Valley..
I hope she loves the Valley.. But if not..Wait..Let's not go there...:)

218 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:20:09pm

re: #189 Targetpractice

Think about it, this is the crowd that still plays "Born in the USA" at rallies. Don't think anybody at this point thinks they've taken two seconds to read over the lyrics.

Which is hilarious. The song's not exactly a rah-rah celebration of anything. For that matter, his new record has flashes of hope and optimism, but he's not exactly shy about his feelings:

They destroyed our families’ factories and they took our homes
They left our bodies on the plains
The vultures picked our bones
So listen up, my Sonny boy
Be ready for when they come
For they’ll be returning sure as the rising sun

Now get yourself a song to sing and sing it ’til you’re done
Yeah, sing it hard and sing it well
Send the robber barons straight to hell

The greedy thieves that came around
And ate the flesh of everything they’ve found
Whose crimes have gone unpunished now
Walk the streets as free men now
And they brought death to our hometown

219 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:20:39pm

A, still brainwashed by Bill O'Reilly, friend of mine tried to tell me today that Planned Parenthood really did a lot more abortions than they said they did. I went ballistic.

I told her that all of Planned Parenthood's records were online. They are extremely transparant.

I then asked her if she realized that that is where both of us would go for our annual PAP smears if we didn't have insurance.

220 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:20:44pm

re: #217 HoosierHoops

That's great news. I'm happy for you.

221 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:20:59pm

re: #192 HoosierHoops

Time to dream!

222 Lidanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:21:24pm

re: #214 ggt

I'm still trying to shake the stupid out of my ears after listening to Santorum. Man really needs a speechwriter and teleprompter.

What an idiot.

Teleprompters are evil! Obama uses teleprompters! We must resist!

///

224 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:23:34pm

Welcome to Florida! The Sunshine State. Please observe our local customs and don't accidentally bump into one of our residents because if they think you're about to commit a felony assault on them they're allowed to blow your head clean off!

Again, welcome to Florida and enjoy your stay.

[Banjo music.]

//

225 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:24:11pm

re: #214 ggt

I'm still trying to shake the stupid out of my ears after listening to Santorum. Man really needs a speechwriter and teleprompter.

What an idiot.

I wear anti-Santorum ear plugs and safety glasses.

226 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:24:32pm

re: #225 Much Ado About Nuttin

I wear anti-Santorum ear plugs and safety glasses.

You get those on Amazon?

227 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:26:26pm

Excuse me sir but could you kindly tell me how to get to highwa...

[BLAM!]

[Banjo music.]

Florida. The Sunshine State!

228 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:26:33pm

re: #224 Gus

Welcome to Florida! The Sunshine State. Please observe our local customs and don't accidentally bump into one of our residents because if they think you're about to commit a felony assault on them they're allowed to blow your head clean off!

Again, welcome to Florida and enjoy your stay.

[Banjo music.]

//

Hey now. Banjos deserve better than to be associated with Florida.

229 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:27:21pm

re: #228 The Ghost of a Flea

Hey now. Banjos deserve better than to be associated with Florida.

Yeah. But if I had to do auditions it would cramp my creativity.

//

230 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:27:27pm

So all this Economic Freedom Romney talked about.

He kept saying "go out and start a company . .go out and take advantage . . "

I kept wondering how does one do that when you have children that have to be cared-for. Even with day care --it is freaking hard.

Then it dawned on me, he mean Economic Freedom for Men.

231 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:28:46pm

re: #3 The Ghost of a Flea

The important question is: which candidate is the Reitiarus and which is the Secutor?

I'd say Romney with his big money and strong organization is the Secutor. I'd call Santorum a Thracian, also heavily armored and with a long curved blade. Gingrich is a fat patrician slob in the seats, guzzling wine and looking for his next wife. I'm not going to call Ron Paul the Reitiarus, though. I do, however, associate Ron Paul with a net; Not a net thrown by him, but instead a net thrown over him.

232 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:29:00pm

I also totally get the idea of American Imperialism.

While we don't conquer and rape in the old fashioned sense, There are those who do really see that Some Animals (countries) are more Equal than others. The audacity of other countries doing so well they can actually compete with America is truly unravelling the Patricians.

233 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:29:30pm

re: #230 ggt

So all this Economic Freedom Romney talked about.

He kept saying "go out and start a company . .go out and take advantage . . "

I kept wondering how does one do that when you have children that have to be cared-for. Even with day care --it is freaking hard.

Then it dawned on me, he mean Economic Freedom for Men.

He also mustn't know that mostly all lending to small business and particularly start ups is dried up and all there is is largely due to Government programs and money easing.

234 Vermicelli  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:30:19pm

OT
What an utter Angel. I can't get over it.

235 Digital Display  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:31:09pm

re: #221 prairiefire

Time to dream!

Thank you for your kindness..

236 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:31:42pm

re: #230 ggt

So all this Economic Freedom Romney talked about.

He kept saying "go out and start a company . .go out and take advantage . . "

I kept wondering how does one do that when you have children that have to be cared-for. Even with day care --it is freaking hard.

Then it dawned on me, he mean Economic Freedom for Men.

Most people who "go out and start a company" end up in severe debt with a failed business.

237 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:32:26pm

re: #233 Wozza Matter?

He also mustn't know that mostly all lending to small business and particularly start ups is dried up and all there is is largely due to Government programs and money easing.

Wife home with the kids, pregnant and the man has the stress-free privledge of starting a small business.

Most men in such situations I know think they have too much too lose to risk it all on a small business and stay and put-up with the corporate BS and are miserable and drink ALOT.

238 abolitionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:32:50pm

re: #113 ggt

"The teen started to run, Zimmerman reported. When he said he was following, the dispatcher told him, "We don't need you to do that.""

He didn't do what the cops told him. Zimmerman should be prosecuted.

I think not just Zimmerman. This stinks.
trayvon-martin-911-calls-audio (eight files as mp3)

Partial transcription from Call 3 -Female Neighbor Reports (direct link to mp3)

00:08 (caller) There's someone screaming outside.
00:20 (caller) Yes. There's a gunshot. Hurry up.
01:06 (caller) I see a policeman now.
01:20 (911) Do you see the officer?
02:02 (911) Well, we have an officer there. ...
02:15 (911) Just one gunshot you heard?
02:20 (911) Ok.. ok, well, we have.. we have officers out there, ok...
02:30 (911) ...but We do have several officers there, and one officer *is* there, ok.
02:32 (caller) Did they see anything?
02:35 (911) I'm not sure maam, I just show that he's there, and then two other officers are on their way...
...
03:10 (caller) ..and the guy on top had a white t-shirt.

Congecture on my part, but I think the evidence is compelling:
The "officer there" that the 911 agent kept mentioning,
the "policeman" the caller reported at 01:06 (approx. 45 seconds after the gunshot), and
the "guy on top" in the white t-shirt,
were *all* George Zimmerman.

If true, it means Zimmerman removed his jacket before the altercation and put it back on soon after the shooting. And the Sanford PD is likely in very deep doo-doo.

If police departments can't maintain a clear distinction between who's a "police officer" and who isn't, that's seriously f-d up.

239 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:33:06pm

re: #234 Vermicelli

OT
What an utter Angel. I can't get over it.

Too horrible for words.

240 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:34:03pm

re: #237 ggt

Wife home with the kids, pregnant and the man has the stress-free privledge of starting a small business.

Most men in such situations I know think they have too much too lose to risk it all on a small business and stay and put-up with the corporate BS and are miserable and drink ALOT.

That reminds me... new Mad Men this Sunday!

242 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:35:23pm

re: #230 ggt

So all this Economic Freedom Romney talked about.

He kept saying "go out and start a company . .go out and take advantage . . "

I kept wondering how does one do that when you have children that have to be cared-for. Even with day care --it is freaking hard.

Then it dawned on me, he mean Economic Freedom for Men.

Maybe he meant "go out and take over a failed company, fire the workers, sell off the assets, and keep what's left."

You know the Bain Capital business model.

243 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:35:35pm

re: #217 HoosierHoops

Hopin' it all goes well for you chap.

244 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:37:34pm

re: #224 Gus

Welcome to Florida! The Sunshine State. Please observe our local customs and don't accidentally bump into one of our residents because if they think you're about to commit a felony assault on them they're allowed to blow your head clean off!

Again, welcome to Florida and enjoy your stay.

[Banjo music.]

//

I talked with my father about that, and he was of the opinion that Zimmerman's actions were illegal, even with Florida's laws. This isn't ultimately a case about gun laws: This is a case about asshole who decided without proof that another person was a criminal, and then unilaterally assumed the powers of judge, jury, and executioner. The police should have been better educated about the law, it's true, for if anyone had a valid claim of self defense it would have been Trayvon Martin.

245 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:37:47pm

re: #241 Learned Mother of Zion

A prosecutor says all seven victims of a shooter who is spreading terror across southern France have been killed with bullets to the head, shot at such close range that the gunfire burned the skin.

Those poor children and families.

Hate that raw is beyond understanding. How could anyone execute children like that?

246 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:38:50pm

Oh yeah that Chrysler job I was supposed to start? Damn idiots had to withdraw the job offer because their contract bid didn't go through, they had to disband the whole team.

But now I got a job offer from the GUMMINT!

I had to fill out a security questionnaire this afternoon. It took 6 FREAKIN HOURS.

247 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:40:26pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

The law has also already caused lots of problems, and is opposed by prosecutors and police for making prosecution much harder.

See the previous cases where gang members shot each other, killing a passerby, and were let off because they all claimed self-defense, and technically, under this law, they were correct.

Do you think it should be okay for people to simply exchange fire in the streets with no repercussions?

After all, you might feel threatened by someone holding a gun, and if he didn't drop that gun, you'd be legitimately able to open fire. And so would he.

248 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:40:44pm

Your text to link...Yep.

Laup Nor beat The Newster.

LOL

249 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:43:41pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

I talked with my father about that, and he was of the opinion that Zimmerman's actions were illegal, even with Florida's laws. This isn't ultimately a case about gun laws: This is a case about asshole who decided without proof that another person was a criminal, and then unilaterally assumed the powers of judge, jury, and executioner. The police should have been better educated about the law, it's true, for if anyone had a valid claim of self defense it would have been Trayvon Martin.

It's not a case about gun laws; it's a case about a badly worded law regarding application of lethal force that has a track record of letting murderers get off without charges.

And police who didn't follow some very basic procedure when confronted with a homicide, like testing the shooter for drugs and alcohol. Their errors went far beyond "being uneducated" about the Stand Your Ground law.

And an asshole who will likely use wording of that law and the inattention of the police to evade arrest and imprisonment

250 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:45:45pm

I'm still having a hard time figuring out the Democratic vs. Republican turnout at the Polls today.

Any ideas?

251 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:47:29pm

To the Fallout fans here:

How should I teach Big Town to defend itself?

252 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:47:35pm

re: #249 The Ghost of a Flea

It's not a case about gun laws; it's a case about a badly worded law regarding application of lethal force that has a track record of letting murderers get off without charges.

And police who didn't follow some very basic procedure when confronted with a homicide, like testing the shooter for drugs and alcohol. Their errors went far beyond "being uneducated" about the Stand Your Ground law.

And an asshole who will likely use wording of that law and the inattention of the police to evade arrest and imprisonment

If this was an English self defence law the Police would be derelict in their duties in not putting a case together against the shooter - after an investigation the police & or prosecuters decide whether or not to bring that collected case to court. The shooter would then use the self defence argument in court.

I can't believe there is a justice system in the western world where that would not be the case.

253 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:47:53pm

re: #247 Obdicut

The NRA has been pushing 'stand your ground' laws in a lot of states.
[Link: www.nraila.org...]

254 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:47:58pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

I talked with my father about that, and he was of the opinion that Zimmerman's actions were illegal, even with Florida's laws. This isn't ultimately a case about gun laws: This is a case about asshole who decided without proof that another person was a criminal, and then unilaterally assumed the powers of judge, jury, and executioner. The police should have been better educated about the law, it's true, for if anyone had a valid claim of self defense it would have been Trayvon Martin.

I don't think it's about gun laws either. It's about vigilantism.

I still don't see how the "stand your ground" law applies when the shooter disregarded 911 instructions.

255 makeitstopghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:50:08pm

I hadn't heard about this. WTF?

Suspect firebombs FW office of state lawmaker

Police are trying to identify the man who entered the West 7th office of State Sen. Wendy Davis Tuesday afternoon and threw two firebombs just outside the door.
Two staffers were in the third floor office when the attack occurred around 4 o'clock. One of them had to leap over the flames to escape, then went to the break room, grabbed an extinguisher and put out the fire.
Investigators said Sen. Davis was not in the office at the time of the incident, but was at her law office closer to downtown Fort Worth.
A staffer told News 8 the Democratic lawmaker was alerted about what happened and that security at Davis' other local office was tightened as a result.
No one was hurt, but the lawmaker's office was damaged by the fire.

256 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:50:32pm

re: #255 makeitstop

I hadn't heard about this. WTF?

Suspect firebombs FW office of state lawmaker

Christian Taliban?

257 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:50:52pm

re: #244 Dark_Falcon

I talked with my father about that, and he was of the opinion that Zimmerman's actions were illegal, even with Florida's laws. This isn't ultimately a case about gun laws: This is a case about asshole who decided without proof that another person was a criminal, and then unilaterally assumed the powers of judge, jury, and executioner. The police should have been better educated about the law, it's true, for if anyone had a valid claim of self defense it would have been Trayvon Martin.

"(3) A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

The police probably are better educated about the law, namely this section that allows people to kill others in "self-defense," even if the person they were "defending" themselves against had nothing more than a bag of Skittles. Zimmerman just points to his injuries, which could have come from Martin fighting to get free, and claims that he "reasonably believed" that Martin posed a threat to him.

258 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:51:25pm

re: #256 ggt

Great,, you narrowed it down to about 50-55% of Texas.

/half

259 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:51:45pm

re: #255 makeitstop

I hadn't heard about this. WTF?

Suspect firebombs FW office of state lawmaker

Terrorism.

260 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:51:59pm

re: #242 Learned Mother of Zion

Maybe he meant "go out and take over a failed company, fire the workers, sell off the assets, and keep what's left."

You know the Bain Capital business model.

That really is not true and it would not be an effective model, either. Romney got his reputation as a turn-around expert, and turn-arounds often involve major organizational changes, which produce winners and losers. And the losers, sometimes out of a job through no fault of their own, are understandably bitter. But most of Bain's cases those jobs would have been lost anyways, due to the company's poor performance. In saving failing companies, Mitt Romney was actually the man who saved jobs.

261 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:52:29pm

I'm thinking about posting this on my fb --what do you think?

To everyone who thinks abortion should be illegal because a life is ended, I'd like tell them what many young women did before abortion was safe and legal.

The committed suicide.

The men that impregnanted them -- went on with their lives.

262 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:53:22pm

re: #258 ProGunLiberal

I'll go out on a limb and bet heavily that the bomber is not a Hispanic Catholic.

263 makeitstopghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:53:27pm

re: #259 Meh.

Terrorism.

Absolutely no question about it.

This kinda scares me. People were talking about conservatives freaking out after Obama got re-elected.

They may have decided not to wait.

264 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:53:51pm

re: #257 Targetpractice

The police probably are better educated about the law, namely this section that allows people to kill others in "self-defense," even if the person they were "defending" themselves against had nothing more than a bag of Skittles. Zimmerman just points to his injuries, which could have come from Martin fighting to get free, and claims that he "reasonably believed" that Martin posed a threat to him.

HE GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK.

How the fuck was he threatened --in a truck that was working?

265 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:54:26pm

re: #263 makeitstop

Absolutely no question about it.

This kinda scares me. People were talking about conservatives freaking out after Obama got re-elected.

They may have decided not to wait.

There's nothing particularly new here.

Domestic terrorism has long been a weapon of the anti-choice movement.

266 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:54:38pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

That really is not true and it would not be an effective model, either. Romney got his reputation as a turn-around expert, and turn-arounds often involve major organizational changes, which produce winners and losers. And the losers, sometimes out of a job through no fault of their own, are understandably bitter. But most of Bain's cases those jobs would have been lost anyways, due to the company's poor performance. In saving failing companies, Mitt Romney was actually the man who saved jobs.

Please don't try to talk corporate logic.

it hurts the brain.

267 abolitionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:55:42pm

re: #261 ggt

I'm thinking about posting this on my fb --what do you think?

The extremists would just insist that such women are consequently condemned to hell.

268 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:55:49pm

re: #261 ggt

I'm thinking about posting this on my fb --what do you think?

Post with minor typos corrected:

To everyone who thinks abortion should be illegal because a life is ended, I'd like to tell them what many young women did before abortion was safe and legal.

They committed suicide.

The men that impregnated them -- went on with their lives.

Of course, for the talibangelicals, the moral of this story is a feature, not a bug.

269 makeitstopghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:56:57pm

re: #265 Wozza Matter?

There's nothing particularly new here.

Domestic terrorism has long been a weapon of the anti-choice movement.

True - although it's been mostly against abortion facilities in the past, as far as I can remember.

This was against a sitting Democratic senator.

270 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:57:01pm

re: #268 Interesting Times

Post with minor typos corrected:

Of course, for the talibangelicals, the moral of this story is a feature, not a bug.

thank you for the editing.

my fingers need that.

271 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:57:30pm

Some people will try and fend off an armed individual or attacker even when they are unarmed themselves. Adrenalin kicks in as they see themselves as having nothing to lose since they will consider their own death eminent. So if I approach an individual with a weapon in sight that individual may very well try and attack me leading to a shooting.

That's not really "standing one's ground" either since I would have approached that individual into "his space." As this law is written now any asshole can come up to you with a gun and instigate you into attacking him thus allowing him to shoot you and then claim that he was "standing his ground." Not saying any of this is the case with Martin. Just some thoughts I just had.

272 allegro  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:58:05pm

re: #268 Interesting Times

The men that who impregnated them -- went on with their lives.

If we're gonna be picky.;)

273 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:58:24pm

re: #269 makeitstop

True - although it's been mostly against abortion facilities in the past, as far as I can remember.

This was against a sitting Democratic senator.

The *misinformation* (blatant lying) about Planned Parenthood that is out there is staggering.

And people believe when all they have to do is use the intertoobs.

We are separating in to two groups as a society. Those who will search information for themselves and those that won't.

274 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:58:41pm

re: #269 makeitstop

Related:
Helping anti-choice terrorists, one name at a time.

In the words of Rep. Gary Odom (D-Nashville), this bill “puts a target on women’s and physicians’ backs. I think it’s a very dangerous piece of legislation and serves no purpose I can tell other than trying to intimidate women and physicians.”

275 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:58:48pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

I think Mitt Romney's big venture into capitalism amounted to garbage picking in a suit. As for his business experience, the only thing he ever ran was his mouth.

276 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:59:21pm

re: #234 Vermicelli

OT
What an utter Angel. I can't get over it.

God bless Miriam, what a beautiful name.

277 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:59:27pm

So in Florida, I can go out my door, see some guy that I don't like or find "suspicious" and get in his face. If that person responds to my aggressive behavior I'm allowed to shoot him by claiming I feared a felony assault was coming.

278 Interesting Times in Benghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 7:59:52pm

re: #270 ggt

thank you for the editing.

my fingers need that.

No problem :) You could also post the following rather potent protest signs:

I cannot believe...

Image: thinkoutside.jpg

279 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:00:11pm

re: #257 Targetpractice

The police probably are better educated about the law, namely this section that allows people to kill others in "self-defense," even if the person they were "defending" themselves against had nothing more than a bag of Skittles. Zimmerman just points to his injuries, which could have come from Martin fighting to get free, and claims that he "reasonably believed" that Martin posed a threat to him.

Even so, the fact that Zimmerman actively pursued Martin after being told not to do so, and then got out of his car with a gun in his hand and tried to stop Martin negated the self defense exception (self defense is an exception in terms of homicide laws, as homicide is by default unlawful). While Zimmerman was in his vehicle Martin posed no threat to him. Those facts I have outlined, plus the 911 tapes, might well provide sufficient cause to conclude Zimmerman acted with malicious intent, which would make his actions murder. But at a bare minimum, Zimmerman committed manslaughter.

280 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:00:22pm

re: #277 Gus

So in Florida, I can go out my door, see some guy that I don't like or find "suspicious" and get in his face. If that person responds to my aggressive behavior I'm allowed to shoot him by claiming I feared a felony assault was coming.

the stupid of florida is legion

281 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:00:37pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

No, not always. You can't conclude that all the companies would have absolutely failed without Bain. Often, the companies were sold simply because it was more profitable for their owners to do so then to try to resurrect them, or because they lacked the capital. Your initial premise is flawed.

And even if it weren't, the strategies that Bain then pursued were first and foremost to recoup their own investment, and second to continue the existence of the company.

282 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:00:50pm

re: #269 makeitstop

True - although it's been mostly against abortion facilities in the past, as far as I can remember.

This was against a sitting Democratic senator.

They have used intimidation against all pro-choice politicians. It's a step up in scale.

283 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:01:17pm

re: #277 Gus

Its an old joke from the cartoon that wrapped the piece of Bazooka gum. I punched him because I knew he would punch me back.

284 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:01:19pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Did you read my previous post about the problems with the law that exist independent of this case, Dark?

285 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:01:34pm

re: #264 ggt

HE GOT OUT OF THE TRUCK.

How the fuck was he threatened --in a truck that was working?

Well, as a law-abiding, dutiful citizen, he had to know what street he was on so as to let the 911 operator know. And the only way he could find out was to leave his truck to check it on foot. But when he tried to get back into his truck, this 140lb teenager attacked him from behind and started beating him up, leaving Zimmerman no choice but to use deadly force.

Case closed!///

286 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:01:38pm

re: #277 Gus

So in Florida, I can go out my door, see some guy that I don't like or find "suspicious" and get in his face. If that person responds to my aggressive behavior I'm allowed to shoot him by claiming I feared a felony assault was coming.

StandAdvance Your Ground.

287 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:02:02pm

re: #278 Interesting Times

No problem :) You could also post the following rather potent protest signs:

I cannot believe...

Image: thinkoutside.jpg

LOL, I've seen similar on fb.

I try to post little things that *might* cause people to think just a little. I have one fb friend who emailed me and told me that my posts caused her to pay attention and get involved politically.

If I can change 1 mind, I am happy. If I can change 2, I might consider myself a guru. LOL

288 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:02:36pm

re: #282 Wozza Matter?

They have used intimidation against all pro-choice politicians. It's a step up in scale.

Terrorism is bullying --no?

289 Wozza Matter?  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:02:39pm

g'night folks

290 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:03:47pm

re: #285 Targetpractice

Well, as a law-abiding, dutiful citizen, he had to know what street he was on so as to let the 911 operator know. And the only way he could find out was to leave his truck to check it on foot. But when he tried to get back into his truck, this 140lb teenager attacked him from behind and started beating him up, leaving Zimmerman no choice but to use deadly force.

Case closed!///

I still don't buy that he didn't know what street he was on.

It was his neighborhood and he was an experienced member of the Neighborhood Watch.

serious fail in lying IMHO.

291 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:04:01pm

We won't really know what the people in Florida think of that law until a non-white gunman uses it as a defense.

292 SpaceJesus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:04:05pm

somebody with a higher income buy me some of these plz

Youtube Video
293 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:04:37pm

re: #257 Targetpractice

The police probably are better educated about the law, namely this section that allows people to kill others in "self-defense," even if the person they were "defending" themselves against had nothing more than a bag of Skittles. Zimmerman just points to his injuries, which could have come from Martin fighting to get free, and claims that he "reasonably believed" that Martin posed a threat to him.

It's still no reason not to take Zimmerman into custody simply to process him for evidence. Competent investigative officers are interested in things like defensive wounds. There are basic questions that need to be answered, did Zimmerman have Martin's DNA under his fingernails, was the blood reported on the back of Zimmerman's head his own or Trayvons, was a GSR residue test done on Zimmerman. He says he pulled the trigger but only an idiot takes an admitted shooter's word at face value, you document, you corroborate, you interrogate. You don't let the shooter go home immediately, you take him into custody and even if he refuses to speak without a lawyer you take his clothing and process it as potential crime scene evidence.

None of this appears to have been done with any degree of professionalism in this case. One of the police officers even contradicted a witness, correcting her to her face when she said she heard Trayvon screaming for help. The officer informed her that she was mistaken, that it was Zimmerman she heard. That's misconduct, when gathering evidence you don't go around telling witnesses what they saw or heard, to do so is a basic fucking violation of criminological ethics and procedure.

294 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:04:50pm

re: #290 ggt

And the idea that he would feel threatened, and then turn his back on the threat for long enough to be assaulted is just not supportable.

295 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:05:50pm

re: #290 ggt

I still don't buy that he didn't know what street he was on.

It was his neighborhood and he was an experienced member of the Neighborhood Watch.

serious fail in lying IMHO.

I've been thinking about this too. Don't add up, I reckon.

296 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:06:03pm

re: #294 jaunte

And the idea that he would feel threatened, and then turn his back on the threat for long enough to be assaulted is just not supportable.

cops are royally fucked --and they did it to themselves.

297 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:09:13pm

re: #292 SpaceJesus

somebody with a higher income buy me some of these plz

[Embedded content]

Talk to Hoops. I hear he's got a big score comin' down the pipe...

298 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:09:21pm

re: #277 Gus

So in Florida, I can go out my door, see some guy that I don't like or find "suspicious" and get in his face. If that person responds to my aggressive behavior I'm allowed to shoot him by claiming I feared a felony assault was coming.

That's what Zimmerman just did. He started a fight, killed his opponent, and now can argue it was self-defense. Go look at similar cases involving Stand Your Ground, like that of Joe Horn, who entered a neighbor's (empty) house that was being broken into, shot two people in the back and killed them. He wasn't convicted.

They were illegal immigrants, and he was hailed by Glenn Beck for his courage and interviewed:

BECK: (to Horn) You saw people breaking into your neighbor's house... You shot them.

(FOX NEWS GRAPHIC ON BOTTOM OF SCREEN: SHOT 2 ILLEGALS.)

HORN: When your life is on the line, and you take a human life, I wanted to live. I wanted to live. And I was not gonna let those two men kill me. And I can assure you, if they'da got to me, they woulda killed me. So I shot 'em.

(Crowd cheers.)

[Citaition: the Mr. Destructo/Gawker blogger assembled this material for his latest post on the Martin murder

299 ghazidor  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:10:21pm

It is hard to believe that it was only early 2001 when President George W. Bush while trying to push his education reforms through Congress said:

"I am an activist. And I don't understand-people saying they're against government: Then why are you going in?"

Today, only ten years later, such a statement would be utterly impossible for a Republican politician to make without being utterly excoriated by the self appointed ideological minders of Republican purity who now control the parties message in print, on radio, and on television.

What is sad is that the Republican party is no longer in control of it's own message, they have created a monster that has eaten them from within. The "Base" and the enabler pundits who make hugh sums of money by paying them lip service and telling them creative exaggerations, extreme hyperbole, and outright lies have taken over the party.

Truth, rationality, and simple empathy or compassion are no longer welcome...pity that. :(

300 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:11:38pm

re: #299 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

It is hard to believe that it was only early 2001 when President George W. Bush while trying to push his education reforms through Congress said:

"I am an activist. And I don't understand-people saying they're against government: Then why are you going in?"

Today, only ten years later, such a statement would be utterly impossible for a Republican politician to make without being utterly excoriated by the self appointed ideological minders of Republican purity who now control the parties message in print, on radio, and on television.

What is sad is that the Republican party is no longer in control of it's own message, they have created a monster that has eaten them from within. The "Base" and the enabler pundits who make hugh sums of money by paying them lip service and telling them creative exaggerations, extreme hyperbole, and outright lies have taken over the party.

Truth, rationality, and simple empathy or compassion are no longer welcome...pity that. :(

The GOP, IMHO, is the Christian Taliban Party.

301 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:11:54pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Even so, the fact that Zimmerman actively pursued Martin after being told not to do so, and then got out of his car with a gun in his hand and tried to stop Martin negated the self defense exception (self defense is an exception in terms of homicide laws, as homicide is by default unlawful). While Zimmerman was in his vehicle Martin posed no threat to him. Those facts I have outlined, plus the 911 tapes, might well provide sufficient cause to conclude Zimmerman acted with malicious intent, which would make his actions murder. But at a bare minimum, Zimmerman committed manslaughter.

Unfortunately, Zimmerman's motivations don't enter into the section of the law I quoted. Based even upon the evidence that has come to light since the incident, we can only paint a hypothetical picture of how Zimmerman and Martin ended up as they did, not helped by, as frank noted, the piss-poor (potentially even criminal itself) conduct of the cops who arrived at the scene. Absent conclusive proof that Zimmerman did something to provoke the attack on him, the defense would only have to argue that Zimmerman's injuries show that Martin posed a threat to him, that he had no way of knowing if Martin was armed, and so took action to "stand his ground" and protect his life.

302 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:12:53pm

re: #277 Gus

So in Florida, I can go out my door, see some guy that I don't like or find "suspicious" and get in his face. If that person responds to my aggressive behavior I'm allowed to shoot him by claiming I feared a felony assault was coming.

I believe you are misinterpreting the law, Gus. I cite the linked piece to support my assertion.

303 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:13:28pm

re: #260 Dark_Falcon

But most of Bain's cases those jobs would have been lost anyways, due to the company's poor performance.

You have no idea why those companies were sold to Bain. Maybe the owners penises hurt and they just wanted to retire. It wasn't all poor performance. Bain took the opportunity in many cases to saddle the acquisitions with debt using the existing pension funds as collateral. They fired the officers and hired themselves at extravagant salaries, and paid Bain consulting fees. Then when the companies failed the States and Federal government ended up on the hook for the pension obligations. As I said yesterday that behavior might not have been theft, inasmuch as it was legal, but it was certainly parasitic and completely unethical.

304 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:13:47pm

IN the end, it doesn't matter what we think.

It only matters what the Jury thinks. If it get's to a jury . . . .

305 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:15:34pm

re: #299 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

What is sad is that the Republican party is no longer in control of it's own message, they have created a monster that has eaten them from within.

I get the image of Gene Wilder tap dancing with Frankenstein to the tune of Putting on a Ritz..

306 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:16:27pm

re: #293 goddamnedfrank

It's still no reason not to take Zimmerman into custody simply to process him for evidence. Competent investigative officers are interested in things like defensive wounds. There are basic questions that need to be answered, did Zimmerman have Martin's DNA under his fingernails, was the blood reported on the back of Zimmerman's head his own or Trayvons, was a GSR residue test done on Zimmerman. He says he pulled the trigger but only an idiot takes an admitted shooter's word at face value, you document, you corroborate, you interrogate. You don't let the shooter go home immediately, you take him into custody and even if he refuses to speak without a lawyer you take his clothing and process it as potential crime scene evidence.

None of this appears to have been done with any degree of professionalism in this case. One of the police officers even contradicted a witness, correcting her to her face when she said she heard Trayvon screaming for help. The officer informed her that she was mistaken, that it was Zimmerman she heard. That's misconduct, when gathering evidence you don't go around telling witnesses what they saw or heard, to do so is a basic fucking violation of criminological ethics and procedure.

Agreed. There was enough ambiguity to justify an investigation, certainly. And likely enough to detain Zimmerman, at least temporarily.

307 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:17:04pm

re: #304 ggt

IN the end, it doesn't matter what we think.

It only matters what the Jury thinks. If it get's to a jury . . .

What I keep stressing is that "interpretation" as abstract aside, there are plenty of precedents where people weren't brought up on charges in situations very like the ones where Trayvon Martin was shot

308 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:17:18pm

re: #305 Mich-again

I get the image of Gene Wilder tap dancing with Frankenstein to the tune of Putting on a Ritz..

Youtube Video
309 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:17:19pm

FLASHBACK VIDEO: Fox Defended Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law (Despite Not Knowing What It Said)

On September 30, 2005, Daniel Vice of the Brady Campaign went on Fox News' The Big Story to discuss the advertising campaign: "Until today, the law has been that if you feel nervous or threatened in Florida you should avoid confrontation and shoot someone as a last resort. As of tomorrow, the new law will be that you can shoot first in public if you feel nervous or threatened. So we're warning everyone, all tourists. And we're handing out flyers at the airport."

Andrew Napolitano came on to respond to the Brady Campaign and claimed the law said "Florida residents may use deadly force when they believe their life or property is threatened on their own property." According to Napolitano: "The Brady group is wrong, dead wrong, for him to say 'in public.' Because it specifically says 'only on your property.' "

Napolitano was completely wrong. The law allows for the use of deadly force on a person's private property or "any other place where he or she has a right to be" if they reasonably feel threatened.
[Link: mediamatters.org...]

310 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:17:52pm

re: #184 The Ghost of a Flea

Dr. Zauis and Santorum would probably get along together pretty well.

Youtube Video
311 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:20:54pm

re: #302 Dark_Falcon

I believe you are misinterpreting the law, Gus. I cite the linked piece to support my assertion.

Again, Dark, the law has previously protected gang members who shot an innocent passerby. Are you just looking at that one piece for your sum total of knowledge of the law?

312 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:21:17pm

re: #306 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. There was enough ambiguity to justify an investigation, certainly. And likely enough to detain Zimmerman, at least temporarily.

Except I doubt Zimmerman is the first case they've encountered like this. And I'm sure that, when the law initially went into effect, they tried to keep things going as they had before it, investigating shootings, bringing the shooters in on charges, and taking them before the courts. But what they got for their troubles was cases tossed because all the shooter had to say was he "reasonably believed" his life was in danger. So that now, the few cases they do actually take seriously are the ones where they have some concrete proof at the onset that it was something other than "self-defense."

313 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:21:21pm

re: #301 Targetpractice

Unfortunately, Zimmerman's motivations don't enter into the section of the law I quoted. Based even upon the evidence that has come to light since the incident, we can only paint a hypothetical picture of how Zimmerman and Martin ended up as they did, not helped by, as frank noted, the piss-poor (potentially even criminal itself) conduct of the cops who arrived at the scene. Absent conclusive proof that Zimmerman did something to provoke the attack on him, the defense would only have to argue that Zimmerman's injuries show that Martin posed a threat to him, that he had no way of knowing if Martin was armed, and so took action to "stand his ground" and protect his life.

What I argued was that Zimmerman getting out of his car in that circumstance voided the argument of self defense. The right to defend yourself does not extend to advancing on someone as he did. He had Martin in sight and the police were on their way. For him to advance on Martin was to initiate a attack. It cannot be construed as the act of a "reasonable and prudent" man.

314 ghazidor  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:21:31pm

re: #300 ggt

The GOP, IMHO, is the Christian Taliban Party.

Getting there anyway, they have gone a long way in that direction in only one decade.

/Taliban wants to return to a mythical paradise in the 1700's free of "western influence." GOP wants to return to a mythical 1950's when there was no crime, or abortion, or teen pregnancies, or drug use, or porn, or anything else that might offend their sensibilities (*cough* BULLSHIT! *cough*). I think maybe they just watched too much "Leave it to Beaver" when they were younger and figure that is how the world really was back then.

315 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:22:01pm

re: #304 ggt

IN the end, it doesn't matter what we think.

It only matters what the Jury thinks. If it get's to a jury . . .

The jury has to obey instructions from the judge and render their verdict according to the law, after reviewing the evidence.

316 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:22:25pm

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

What I argued was that Zimmerman getting out of his car in that circumstance voided the argument of self defense.

Can you show where, in the law, that is true?

317 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:22:44pm

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

What I argued was that Zimmerman getting out of his car in that circumstance voided the argument of self defense. The right to defend yourself does not extend to advancing on someone as he did. He had Martin in sight and the police were on their way. For him to advance on Martin was to initiate a attack. It cannot be construed as the act of a "reasonable and prudent" man.

Which is why he accounted for that in his story by saying he got out of his truck to check the street name and was attacked by Martin from behind while getting back in.

318 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:22:57pm

re: #311 Obdicut

Again, Dark, the law has previously protected gang members who shot an innocent passerby. Are you just looking at that one piece for your sum total of knowledge of the law?

Were those passersby the target of the gunfire, or were they just caught in the crossfire? Because it likely makes a difference, as I understand it.

319 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:23:07pm

re: #306 Dark_Falcon

Agreed. There was enough ambiguity to justify an investigation, certainly. And likely enough to detain Zimmerman, at least temporarily.

You don't even need ambiguity, all you need is a victim. Even if there was two dozen different live broadcast video camera feeds, eye witnesses and recordings all corroborating Zimmerman's story the presence of a dead, gunshot body demands a thorough investigation. The police in this case were so asleep at the switch that it boggles the mind.

I'm just going to come out and say it, I don't think they saw the kid as a real person, one who's death demanded their best.

320 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:23:27pm

re: #315 Learned Mother of Zion

The jury has to obey instructions from the judge and render their verdict according to the law, after reviewing the evidence.

Actually, they can use Jury Nullification, but they're told not to.

321 abolitionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:23:39pm

re: #309 jaunte

FLASHBACK VIDEO: Fox Defended Florida's "Stand Your Ground" Law (Despite Not Knowing What It Said)

I don't think Zimmerman had a "right to be" near a neighbor's back portch. That's trespassing, no?

322 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:24:45pm

re: #318 Dark_Falcon

Were those passersby the target of the gunfire, or were they just caught in the crossfire? Because it likely makes a difference, as I understand it.

They were just caught in the crossfire. All the gang members stated they were defending themselves from the gunfire of the other gang members, so the shooting of the passerby was deemed non-prosecutable.

Does that really sound like a reasonable law to you, that lets armed people open fire on each other on the basis that they were threatened by each other being armed?

323 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:24:47pm

re: #314 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

Getting there anyway, they have gone a long way in that direction in only one decade.

/Taliban wants to return to a mythical paradise in the 1700's free of "western influence." GOP wants to return to a mythical 1950's when there was no crime, or abortion, or teen pregnancies, or drug use, or porn, or anything else that might offend their sensibilities (*cough* BULLSHIT! *cough*). I think maybe they just watched too much "Leave it to Beaver" when they were younger and figure that is how the world really was back then.

Crime was confined to the wrong side of the tracks, as it should be. Women stayed in the kitchen or on their backs, so there were enough jobs for all of the men on the right side of the tracks, as it should be.

324 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:24:58pm

re: #319 goddamnedfrank

You don't even need ambiguity, all you need is a victim. Even if there was two dozen different live broadcast video camera feeds, eye witnesses and recordings all corroborating Zimmerman's story the presence of a dead, gunshot body demands a thorough investigation. The police in this case were so asleep at the switch that it boggles the mind.

I'm just going to come out and say it, I don't think they saw the kid as a real person, one who's death demanded their best.

Very likely the cops in charge of the scene saw it as just another "self-defense" shooting and decided that the added paperwork of running Zimmerman in "wasn't worth it," so they bought his story at face value and filed out the least amount of paperwork necessary to go home at the end of their shift.

325 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:25:09pm

re: #313 Dark_Falcon

What I argued was that Zimmerman getting out of his car in that circumstance voided the argument of self defense. The right to defend yourself does not extend to advancing on someone as he did. He had Martin in sight and the police were on their way. For him to advance on Martin was to initiate a attack. It cannot be construed as the act of a "reasonable and prudent" man.

The problem is that the law doesn't mention anything remotely resembling reasonability or prudence. It seems to be inherently flawed.

326 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:25:31pm

re: #319 goddamnedfrank

The lead cop on the scene previously was in charge of an investigation where they brought no charges against someone who beat up a homeless black man, despite the attack being caught on camera.

327 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:26:10pm

re: #312 Targetpractice

Except I doubt Zimmerman is the first case they've encountered like this. And I'm sure that, when the law initially went into effect, they tried to keep things going as they had before it, investigating shootings, bringing the shooters in on charges, and taking them before the courts. But what they got for their troubles was cases tossed because all the shooter had to say was he "reasonably believed" his life was in danger. So that now, the few cases they do actually take seriously are the ones where they have some concrete proof at the onset that it was something other than "self-defense."

Jan 9, 2012: ex deputy shoots homeless man at a Haagen-Das for "aggressive pan-handling"

And the article adds:

Last month, in the first such case in Broward, a Plantation man successfully used the state's "Stand Your Ground" law to derail his prosecution on a first-degree murder charge. Nour Badi Jarkas, 54, was facing trial for the January 2009 shooting death of his estranged wife's boyfriend.

Jarkas, who was armed when he arrived at his wife's home, testified he shot John Concannon when he grabbed him and threatened to kill him.

and

In September, Palm Beach County resident Michael Monahan, 65, became the first in that jurisdiction to benefit when Circuit Judge Richard Oftedal dismissed first-degree murder charges filed after the disabled veteran shot and killed two men who reportedly cornered him in the cabin of his sailboat.

So basically any scuffle or disagreement becomes an opening to shoot someone.

328 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:26:21pm

re: #325 goddamnedfrank

The problem is that the law doesn't mention anything remotely resembling reasonability or prudence. It seems to be inherently flawed.

It says:

A person who is not engaged in an unlawful activity and who is attacked in any other place where he or she has a right to be has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force if he or she reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony

Of course, reasonably is a squishy term.

329 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:26:33pm

re: #326 Obdicut

The lead cop on the scene previously was in charge of an investigation where they brought no charges against someone who beat up a homeless black man, despite the attack being caught on camera.

Yeah I saw that too. FUBAR.

330 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:26:36pm

re: #314 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

GOP wants to return to a mythical 1950's when there was no crime, or abortion, or teen pregnancies, or drug use, or porn, or anything else that might offend their sensibilities (*cough* BULLSHIT! *cough*).

I think you might be off by about 100 years. I think the GOP really wants to go back to 1850, not 1950.

331 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:26:48pm

re: #328 Obdicut

"I had my reasons."

332 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:27:52pm

re: #305 Mich-again

I get the image of Gene Wilder tap dancing with Frankenstein to the tune of Putting on a Ritz..

I get the tap dance scene with Richard Gere from Chicago in my mind alot.

333 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:13pm

re: #327 The Ghost of a Flea

Jan 9, 2012: ex deputy shoots homeless man at a Haagen-Das for "aggressive pan-handling"

And the article adds:

and

So basically any scuffle or disagreement becomes an opening to shoot someone.

Which is exactly what I've been saying. Damn, Florida is one FUBAR state.

334 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:17pm

re: #326 Obdicut

Here's that story.

He was never charged.

[Link: www.wftv.com...]

335 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:22pm

re: #246 Learned Mother of Zion

Oh yeah that Chrysler job I was supposed to start? Damn idiots had to withdraw the job offer because their contract bid didn't go through, they had to disband the whole team.

But now I got a job offer from the GUMMINT!

I had to fill out a security questionnaire this afternoon. It took 6 FREAKIN HOURS.

I did one of those once. Kept a copy of it in case I ever wanted to refer to my own background up to that point any time in the future.
;)

336 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:22pm

Once again, I am proud of Rep. Cleaver, leader of the Black Congressional Caucus:[Link: www.bing.com...]

337 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:37pm

re: #327 The Ghost of a Flea

Jan 9, 2012: ex deputy shoots homeless man at a Haagen-Das for "aggressive pan-handling"

And the article adds:

and

So basically any scuffle or disagreement becomes an opening to shoot someone.

Yep, all you have to do is say "I 'reasonably believed' my life was in danger!" and it automatically becomes a case of self-defense, which the court finds as reason enough to toss the charges.

338 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:28:42pm

re: #279 Dark_Falcon

Even so, the fact that Zimmerman actively pursued Martin after being told not to do so, and then got out of his car with a gun in his hand and tried to stop Martin negated the self defense exception (self defense is an exception in terms of homicide laws, as homicide is by default unlawful). While Zimmerman was in his vehicle Martin posed no threat to him. Those facts I have outlined, plus the 911 tapes, might well provide sufficient cause to conclude Zimmerman acted with malicious intent, which would make his actions murder. But at a bare minimum, Zimmerman committed manslaughter.

Yeah yeah yeah. But he's free, not charged, and not drug/alcohol tested at the scene. After the fact shit show here we come.

I am extremely freaked out about the Sanford "Police" dept.

339 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:29:12pm

re: #337 Targetpractice

Yep, all you have to do is say "I 'reasonably believed' my life was in danger!" and it automatically becomes a case of self-defense, which the court finds as reason enough to toss the charges.

Wasn't even like that in the old West.

340 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:29:44pm

re: #335 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste

I did one of those once. Kept a copy of it in case I ever wanted to refer to my own background up to that point any time in the future.
;)

I just hope they don't give me a hard time because three of my kids married furriners.

341 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:29:50pm

re: #280 windupbird is in the gravity well

the stupid of florida is legion

Yep, I'm from there. Yep.

342 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:30:01pm

re: #339 Gus

Wasn't even like that in the old West.

Nope, even in the Old West, men hanged for shooting someone in the heat of the moment. Now, we pin medals on their chests for "standing their ground."

343 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:32:08pm

re: #341 Oh geeze.

Yep, I'm from there. Yep.

But Florida has CSI Miami!

344 Dancing along the light of day  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:33:34pm

re: #217 HoosierHoops

You deserve nothing but the best, my friend!

345 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:33:35pm

re: #328 Obdicut

It says:

Of course, reasonably is a squishy term.

Yes, its squishy, but its what has to be used. Let me take an example from my own Cook County, IL, a case that saw a man in his own home shoot (but not kill) another man who had broken in. The would-be burglar had used a lock picking tool that looked somewhat like a pistol, but was not dangerous, and when he was shot he had the tool in his hand. Even though the tool was not a weapon, the resident was not charged because he reasonably believed it was likely a weapon. "Reasonable Belief" can be problematic, but it is also needful.

346 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:33:38pm

Looking at the Illinois returns, the data suggests the same story as in the other states - Romney gets the vote of the urban and educated areas, but the hinterlands go for ABR.

Even though Romney cleaned up in IL, he still got less than 50% of the vote. Sure, he gets at least 38 delegates, which helps him along in the march towards the nomination, but the low turnout and the 53% ABR vote tells a story that has to have the GOP strategists nervous.

347 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:33:59pm

re: #340 Learned Mother of Zion

I just hope they don't give me a hard time because three of my kids married furriners.

The seeds of Zion encompass the world!/ I hope so, anyway. I'm sure your children are all a benefit and a plus.

348 Canucknghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:34:05pm

re: #342 Targetpractice

Nope, even in the Old West, men hanged for shooting someone in the heat of the moment. Now, we pin medals on their chests for "standing their ground."

Where is the "Hangin' Judge" when you need him?

Roy, the GOP needs you.

349 Benghazzy Ben Ross  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:34:41pm

Might as well call it a "Last Man Standing" law if you can just tell the cops that you "felt threatened."

350 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:34:48pm

re: #337 Targetpractice

Yep, all you have to do is say "I 'reasonably believed' my life was in danger!" and it automatically becomes a case of self-defense, which the court finds as reason enough to toss the charges.

Dude, consider that second case:

Dude goes over to his ex's place...ARMED.

New boyfriend threatens to kill him, and dude shoot him.

Didn't just get off scot-free, but derailed in a grand jury.

That's how flexible the "right to be" component is.

You can start shit, then when it escalates you can claim self defense.

And doubtless I chafe some sensibilities saying this, but it's a law that favors the gun owner. It makes carrying a gun and escalating a situation to shooting easier to defend legally.

351 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:35:22pm

re: #337 Targetpractice

Yep, all you have to do is say "I 'reasonably believed' my life was in danger!" and it automatically becomes a case of self-defense, which the court finds as reason enough to toss the charges.

OK so if someone is paranoid and thinks that everybody is out to get them, can they fire at will?

352 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:35:56pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

That's basically a license to shoot anyone in the dark.

Are you going to engage with the actual things I'm bringing up about the law at any point?

Say, under the Florida law, Man A sees Man B holding a gun. Man A draws his own gun and point sit at Man B, ordering him to drop the gun. Man B swings the gun around to Man A. Is man A allowed to fire? Is Man B allowed to fire under the law? Has anyone broken the law?

353 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:36:28pm

re: #343 Much Ado About Nuttin

But Florida has CSI Miami!

Yes, but Crime Scene Investigators aren't much good if you don't investigate the scene.

354 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:02pm

re: #342 Targetpractice

Nope, even in the Old West, men hanged for shooting someone in the heat of the moment. Now, we pin medals on their chests for "standing their ground."

Nightmare scenario. In fact it's seriously negative for any normal law-abiding -- and calm -- CCW proponents. My advice to CCW folks is to oppose this law and support a repeal with a major re-write.

355 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:09pm

re: #353 Dark_Falcon

Best. Burn. Ever.

356 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:16pm

re: #346 freetoken

Looking at the Illinois returns, the data suggests the same story as in the other states - Romney gets the vote of the urban and educated areas, but the hinterlands go for ABR.

Even though Romney cleaned up in IL, he still got less than 50% of the vote. Sure, he gets at least 38 delegates, which helps him along in the march towards the nomination, but the low turnout and the 53% ABR vote tells a story that has to have the GOP strategists nervous.

Oh, I'm sure the boys at HQ are sweating this one out with each Romney "victory." He wins only in what are generally Democrat strongholds, while the rural vote's going to the ABR crowd. No guarantees that he can get even 50% of those rural votes in November, especially not when his campaign message boils down to "Vote for the Not-Bama!"

357 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:39pm

re: #347 prairiefire

The seeds of Zion encompass the world!/ I hope so, anyway. I'm sure your children are all a benefit and a plus.

My son married an Israeli: she took his name, lives in the U.S.
My son married an Australian: she took his name, lives in the U.S.
My daughter married a Brit: she added his name to her name, they live in the U.S.

358 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:42pm

re: #350 The Ghost of a Flea

Dude, consider that second case:

Dude goes over to his ex's place...ARMED.

New boyfriend threatens to kill him, and dude shoot him.

Didn't just get off scot-free, but derailed in a grand jury.

That's how flexible the "right to be" component is.

You can start shit, then when it escalates you can claim self defense.

And doubtless I chafe some sensibilities saying this, but it's a law that favors the gun owner. It makes carrying a gun and escalating a situation to shooting easier to defend legally.

Make a page?

359 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:37:47pm

re: #346 freetoken

Looking at the Illinois returns, the data suggests the same story as in the other states - Romney gets the vote of the urban and educated areas, but the hinterlands go for ABR.

Even though Romney cleaned up in IL, he still got less than 50% of the vote. Sure, he gets at least 38 delegates, which helps him along in the march towards the nomination, but the low turnout and the 53% ABR vote tells a story that has to have the GOP strategists nervous.

Any figures on Democratic overall turnout? All I can find is Republican stats.

360 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:38:00pm

re: #341 Oh geeze.

Yep, I'm from there. Yep.

TEXAZ!! (bicep flex + duckface)

12 year-old sentenced in DART rail case

The boy — whom we did not identify because he is a minor — is the third person to plead guilty since 19-year-old Octavius Lanier was pushed from the platform and into the path of a moving train last November.

361 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:39:15pm

re: #351 Mich-again

OK so if someone is paranoid and thinks that everybody is out to get them, can they fire at will?

So long as their lawyer can make up some believable story about how the person they shot posed a "threat," yep.

362 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:39:41pm

re: #352 Obdicut

That's basically a license to shoot anyone in the dark.

Are you going to engage with the actual things I'm bringing up about the law at any point?

Say, under the Florida law, Man A sees Man B holding a gun. Man A draws his own gun and point sit at Man B, ordering him to drop the gun. Man B swings the gun around to Man A. Is man A allowed to fire? Is Man B allowed to fire under the law? Has anyone broken the law?

Man A is justified, I would argue. For him to try to run would have him risk being shot in the back. And backing away is not easy on many streets, as even rich areas can have uneven sidewalk sections you'd fall over if you were walking backwards.

363 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:39:43pm

re: #358 Gus

Make a page?

The Ghost of a Flea... Let me rephrase that. I'd like to see you make a page of these thoughts and news bits.

364 Alouenghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:40:14pm

Just some trivia: the expression "scot-free" has nothing to do with people from Scotland committing crimes without getting punished. It comes from the old English word scotofreo which means tax-exempt.

365 abolitionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:41:03pm

re: #352 Obdicut

That's basically a license to shoot anyone in the dark.

Are you going to engage with the actual things I'm bringing up about the law at any point?

Say, under the Florida law, Man A sees Man B holding a gun. Man A draws his own gun and point sit at Man B, ordering him to drop the gun. Man B swings the gun around to Man A. Is man A allowed to fire? Is Man B allowed to fire under the law? Has anyone broken the law?

Both could be charged with brandishing, I'd guess. Unless one is dead. Then the survivor would be in the clear, probably.

366 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:41:14pm

re: #362 Dark_Falcon

Man A is justified, I would argue.

I'm not asking what you'd argue, Dark. I 'm asking you to look at the Florida law and apply it to the situation. Please do that.

For him to try to run would have him risk being shot in the back.

This has zero applicability, since the law is a 'stand your ground' law.

367 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:41:55pm

re: #346 freetoken

Looking at the Illinois returns, the data suggests the same story as in the other states - Romney gets the vote of the urban and educated areas, but the hinterlands go for ABR.

Even though Romney cleaned up in IL, he still got less than 50% of the vote. Sure, he gets at least 38 delegates, which helps him along in the march towards the nomination, but the low turnout and the 53% ABR vote tells a story that has to have the GOP strategists nervous.

Do remember, though, that Illinois doesn't have any statewide offices being decided this year. turnout here is always lower when that is the case.

368 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:42:07pm

re: #364 Learned Mother of Zion

Just some trivia: the expression "scot-free" has nothing to do with people from Scotland committing crimes without getting punished. It comes from the old English word scotofreo which means tax-exempt.

[Link: www.etymonline.com...]

Or! When Scott takes a day off or calls in sick. Then everybody walks around all day talking about what a nice "Scott-free" day it is. //

369 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:44:02pm

re: #364 Learned Mother of Zion

Just some trivia: the expression "scot-free" has nothing to do with people from Scotland committing crimes without getting punished. It comes from the old English word scotofreo which means tax-exempt.

These days, most people assume it means "free from the influence and/or perturbations of that guy named Scott, who was known for being particularly annoying and smelling not necessarily bad, but definitely weird."

370 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:44:26pm

re: #366 Obdicut

I'm not asking what you'd argue, Dark. I 'm asking you to look at the Florida law and apply it to the situation. Please do that.

This has zero applicability, since the law is a 'stand your ground' law.

You were arguing that the law was flawed, Obdi. I replied in part by arguing that retreat would be impractical in the situation you described, as a way explain that need for the law's basic idea.

371 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:44:39pm

re: #345 Dark_Falcon

Yes, its squishy, but its what has to be used. Let me take an example from my own Cook County, IL, a case that saw a man in his own home shoot (but not kill) another man who had broken in. The would-be burglar had used a lock picking tool that looked somewhat like a pistol, but was not dangerous, and when he was shot he had the tool in his hand. Even though the tool was not a weapon, the resident was not charged because he reasonably believed it was likely a weapon. "Reasonable Belief" can be problematic, but it is also needful.

Then the question becomes how squishy Reasonable Belief gets to be. I keep finding cases where that standard is basically non-existent.

Joe Horn was under no threat to start, chose to enter a house and shoot two men.
Ex-deputy Hernandez pulled his gun during a heated verbal exchange, as did Jarkas. The description of the Monahan case doesn't really give enough detail to get a sense of it.

372 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:44:43pm

re: #368 Gus

Or! When Scott takes a day off or calls in sick. Then everybody walks around all say talking about what a nice "Scott-free" day it is. //

Scott. What an asshole.

373 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:08pm

re: #351 Mich-again

OK so if someone is paranoid and thinks that everybody is out to get them, can they fire at will?

No, since paranoia is by definition unreasonable.

374 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:23pm

re: #372 Obdicut

Scott. What an asshole.

Exactly. See. Ya can't take the Jersey out of me.

375 Our Precious Bodily Fluids  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:27pm

re: #372 Obdicut

Scott. What an asshole.

Him and his stupid towels.

376 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:50pm

re: #375 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

Him and his stupid towels.

Ha!

377 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:53pm

re: #370 Dark_Falcon

You were arguing that the law was flawed, Obdi. I replied in part by arguing that retreat would be impractical in the situation you described, as a way explain that need for the law's basic idea.

The 'need' for it? How is there a 'need' in that situation?

It's my contention that both of them have full right to open fire under Florida law. Can you show that this is false?

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:45:55pm

re: #365 abolitionist

Both could be charged with brandishing, I'd guess. Unless one is dead. Then the survivor would be in the clear, probably.

"Is this the kind of town you people want for yourselves? Is this the kind of life you want to lead? I mean, three killings in one saloon alone! The sun hasn't even gone down yet. Any more of this foolishness, and I'm gonna close this place up tight."

"Remember what the sheriff said: no more shootin' till the sun goes down."

"Is that what he said?"

"That's close enough, brother. Drinks are on the house."

379 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:46:47pm

re: #364 Learned Mother of Zion

Just some trivia: the expression "scot-free" has nothing to do with people from Scotland committing crimes without getting punished. It comes from the old English word scotofreo which means tax-exempt.

I've been reading a book on Chaucerian Middle English you might find interesting. It's so odd how words have transformed--I laughed aloud to discover that buxom used to be a term for chaste womanly virtue!

380 ghazidor  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:46:57pm

I figured at least one post in this thread should be on topic so:

Romney: 47%

Santorum: 35%

Paul: 9%

Gingrich: 8%

with 99% of precincts reporting, Illinois went to Romney.

381 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:47:03pm

re: #375 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII

Him and his stupid towels.

Or Big Scott stores! There was one in Kingston NY that I remember. Back in 1970 when I was knee high to something. I swear the place was like the precursor to the stereotype view of Walmarts.

382 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:48:22pm

The most dangerous aspect of this law from a practical aspect seems to be that it is now providing an actual incentive for people to execute witnesses and frame them. If the police are demonstrably unwilling to investigate the shit out of every single violent crime scene because they're too busy second guessing prosecutability ... well then it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate how shit plays out from there.

383 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:48:24pm

Ulster County kills the thread.

//

384 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:48:31pm

re: #377 Obdicut

The 'need' for it? How is there a 'need' in that situation?

It's my contention that both of them have full right to open fire under Florida law. Can you show that this is false?

No, I cannot (though I reserve the right to do so later after discussing that law with the lawyers I know). But I also don't think the 'stand your ground' principal should be discarded. But the law could stand some clarification.

385 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:48:31pm

I hear Scott trades.

386 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:48:54pm

Oops. Connection burped.

387 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:49:25pm

Scott is my middle name.
Jerks.
:P

388 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:49:27pm

Florida, working on making Texas look better:

Rep. Stearns says ‘birthers’ have ‘legitimate concerns’
[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

Rep. Cliff Stearns (R-FL), the chairman of the House Energy and Commerce Subcommittee on Oversight and Investigations, reiterated on Tuesday concerns over whether President Barack Obama had an authentic birth certificate.

389 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:49:35pm

re: #385 ggt

I hear Scott trades.

Bon Scott can't trade no more.

390 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:49:39pm

re: #384 Dark_Falcon

No, I cannot (though I reserve the right to do so later after discussing that law with the lawyers I know). But I also don't think the 'stand your ground' principal should be discarded. But the law could stand some clarification.

How would you propose to clarify it, Dark, to ameliorate the situation?

391 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:50:03pm

re: #387 Varek Raith

Scott is my middle name.
Jerks.
:P

Beam me up... Scott.

//

392 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:50:18pm

re: #390 Obdicut

How would you propose to clarify it, Dark, to ameliorate the situation?

Perhaps expect Law Enforcement to do their job?

Actually investigate the scene, do drug/alcohol testing.

393 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:50:39pm

re: #388 jaunte

Florida, working on making Texas look better:
Rep. Stearns says ‘birthers’ have ‘legitimate concerns’

No, Rep. Stearns. Birthers do not have legitimate concerns.

You dumbass cracker.

394 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:51:19pm

re: #393 SanFranciscoZionist

No, Rep. Stearns. Birthers do not have legitimate concerns.

You dumbass cracker.

After nearly 4 years in office, they really, really need to give-it-up.

395 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:51:40pm

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

396 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:51:47pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

No, since paranoia is by definition unreasonable.

hmm. so being paranoid negates the line of defense for shooting the guy in self defense for no good reason. But if a perp is completely sane, then they get to use that for a defense. So only non-crazy people are allowed to do crazy things. Yep thats a pretty well written law there. /

397 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:51:48pm

re: #392 ggt

Perhaps expect Law Enforcement to do their job?

Actually investigate the scene, do drug/alcohol testing.

That'd be a good start, but wouldn't address the problem of the scenario I cited above.

398 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:52:04pm

re: #371 The Ghost of a Flea

Then the question becomes how squishy Reasonable Belief gets to be. I keep finding cases where that standard is basically non-existent.

Joe Horn was under no threat to start, chose to enter a house and shoot two men.
Ex-deputy Hernandez pulled his gun during a heated verbal exchange, as did Jarkas. The description of the Monahan case doesn't really give enough detail to get a sense of it.

That's because "reasonably believe" is pretty much an insurmountable wall at the beginning of any such investigation. A person can reasonably believe their life in danger, even if outside observers say it's not. Under the law, their reasonable belief means actions they take to protect themselves are perfectly legal.

399 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:52:08pm

I want to visit a friend in FOCO. She's having a rough time. I also have no access to a car. Any ideas?

400 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:52:45pm

re: #387 Varek Raith

Scott is my middle name.
Jerks.
:P

Mine too. I'm beginning to think we're long-lost twins.

/

401 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:52:49pm

re: #395 freetoken

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

It means his organization will be weaker in those states and he'll have to rely more on the local GOP there, which means making promises and taking on staff that are beholden to those areas.

So, VP chance of extreme wingnut increasing.

402 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:53:12pm

re: #261 ggt

I'm thinking about posting this on my fb --what do you think?

I posted it with the corrections suggested and already got one positive feedback. From a father of daughters.

403 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:53:35pm

re: #400 Targetpractice

Mine too. I'm beginning to think we're long-lost twins.

/

are you undead?

404 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:53:59pm

re: #403 ggt

are you undead?

I'm a gamer, I might as well be a zombie.

405 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:54:06pm

re: #395 freetoken

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

My guess? Areas which are less interested in social conservative lunacy, and more interested in jobs. The Republicans in such a place will tend to Romney, the vote overall to Obama.

406 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:54:09pm

re: #401 Obdicut

It means his organization will be weaker in those states and he'll have to rely more on the local GOP there, which means making promises and taking on staff that are beholden to those areas.

So, VP chance of extreme wingnut increasing.

hubby says that Newtster wants the VP slot.

407 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:54:25pm

re: #399 ProGunLiberal

I want to visit a friend in FOCO. She's having a rough time. I also have no access to a car. Any ideas?

No damned idea what that means, so as usual, we lack the context to live your life for you.

408 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:54:47pm

re: #399 ProGunLiberal

I want to visit a friend in FOCO. She's having a rough time. I also have no access to a car. Any ideas?

You're probably too young to rent one. Is there a carshare in your area that will let you join?

409 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:55:16pm

re: #363 Gus

The Ghost of a Flea... Let me rephrase that. I'd like to see you make a page of these thoughts and news bits.

I'm just citing stuff already compiled by the blogger Mobuto Sese-Seko of Et Tu, Mr Destructo?: he's covering the Trayvon Martin murder for Gawker.

If I were adding more info found by my own effort, I'd page it. As is, it feels more intellectually honest to just direct traffic his way.

410 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:55:24pm

re: #407 erik_t

No damned idea what that means, so as usual, we lack the context to live your life for you.

I think he means Fort Collins.

411 goddamnedfrank  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:55:34pm

re: #406 ggt

hubby says that Newtster wants the VP slot.

Newt wants to eat Romney's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

412 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:55:41pm

re: #404 Targetpractice

I'm a gamer, I might as well be a zombie.

but do you trade?

413 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:55:54pm

re: #395 freetoken

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

To me, it means that Mitt's doing well in places that are less socially conservative and/or quick to hold his past against him. Which doesn't work for him if, as Obdi notes, he ends up with an extreme wingnut VP whose job it is to appease the base.

414 Shvaughn  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:09pm

re: #407 erik_t

No damned idea what that means, so as usual, we lack the context to live your life for you.

Fort Collins?

415 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:16pm
416 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:23pm

re: #412 ggt

but do you trade?

I look for things. Things to make me go.

/

417 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:30pm

re: #393 SanFranciscoZionist

No, Rep. Stearns. Birthers do not have legitimate concerns.

You dumbass cracker.

whoo o o o

418 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:41pm

re: #405 SanFranciscoZionist

My guess? Areas which are less interested in social conservative lunacy, and more interested in jobs. The Republicans in such a place will tend to Romney, the vote overall to Obama.

Ok, but what does that mean, for the future?

Will that help Obama in Nov? Does anyone think that the states that went for McCain in 2008 will now be picked up by Obama? Or, if Romney is the nominee does that mean that those states which Obama won by a slim margin in 2008 could possibly be picked up by Romney (i.e., his "electability" strength on display)?

419 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:56:59pm

re: #411 goddamnedfrank

Newt wants to eat Romney's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

fava and chianti sound ferrin'.

You sure the Newster eates ferrin' food?

420 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:57:05pm

re: #407 erik_t

Fort Collins. Many of my friends contract it to FOCO, and I use the airport code for Colorado Springs (COS).

re: #408 SanFranciscoZionist

Give me a second while I look it up. I could take a bus, but I would prefer not using greyhound. I would use the Front Range Bus thing.

But then, I would need to connect it to the FOCO-Loveland Bus.

421 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:57:27pm

Image: main.png

422 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:57:30pm

re: #417 Oh geeze.

whoo o o o

Did I say that out loud?

423 Daniel Ballard  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:58:13pm

re: #328 Obdicut

We do have 3 versions of laws by necessity. The one written and passed. Then we get the version in the police training. Then we get what happens on the street.

We may not yet understand what levels went wrong with this law, apart from quick assumptions of all of the above gone wrong. Might we think the intent of the stand your ground law was not abuse, it was for good guys in bad spots. Written badly.

424 Targetpractice  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:58:35pm

re: #418 freetoken

Ok, but what does that mean, for the future?

Will that help Obama in Nov? Does anyone think that the states that went for McCain in 2008 will now be picked up by Obama? Or, if Romney is the nominee does that mean that those states which Obama won by a slim margin in 2008 could possibly be picked up by Romney (i.e., his "electability" strength on display)?

It means that Romney's already at a serious disadvantage in states he's lost, while the ones he's won will likely go to Obama. Or, in short, he's fraked!

425 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:58:46pm

Someone should make an "irony meter exploding" video. I know just the right people too.

426 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:58:57pm

re: #395 freetoken

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

I think it means we are in for a landslide victory of epic proportions for Obama.

427 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:59:03pm

re: #423 Daniel Ballard

I think it probably was written with the best of intentions, which helps explain why hell has followed quickly on its heels.

428 engineer cat  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:59:13pm

re: #388 jaunte

Florida, working on making Texas look better:
Rep. Stearns says ‘birthers’ have ‘legitimate concerns’

romney's english is too stilted for a real american

i have legitimate concerns

429 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:59:21pm

Do people really live under rocks?

I mean, you see a kid walking in your neighborhood--it could be a kid you know right?

Does Zimmerman really not know any black kids?

WTF?

430 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:59:41pm

A great night

Pizza and beer with three friends I've known since the early 70's

We laughed,,,, we cried ,,, we lied and when we did we each knew it!!

431 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 8:59:58pm

Thank you Mr. Hughley!

432 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:00:39pm

re: #425 Gus

Youtube Video
433 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:00:56pm

ooooh, Chicago is so bright!

434 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:01:11pm

re: #430 sattv4u2

A great night

Pizza and beer with three friends I've known since the early 70's

We laughed,,, we cried ,,, we lied and when we did we each knew it!!

Was Blythe Danner in that?

435 erik_t  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:01:19pm

re: #429 ggt

Do people really live under rocks?

I mean, you see a kid walking in your neighborhood--it could be a kid you know right?

Does Zimmerman really not know any black kids?

WTF?

I don't for demographic reasons, but I know not to habitually shoot any black kids that I don't know.

It's not hard.

436 Varek Raith  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:01:53pm

re: #433 ggt

oooh, Chicago is so bright!

Whoops...

437 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:01:56pm

What happens when one of America's favorite creationists goes on Faux & Friends?

On Fox & Friends: Kirk Cameron Defends His Homophobic Comment & Promotes His Movie

Oh, be sure to watch the video at Newshounds.

438 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:02:20pm

re: #432 Obdicut

[Embedded content]

Have to go all the way to White Plains to get those.

439 dragonath  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:02:38pm

What a goofy law, and it's so skewed in favor of the gun owner that it's totally useless. I guess that's part and parcel of the "privilege" of owning a gun.

440 SanFranciscoZionist  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:02:41pm

re: #429 ggt

Do people really live under rocks?

I mean, you see a kid walking in your neighborhood--it could be a kid you know right?

Does Zimmerman really not know any black kids?

WTF?

He was apparently visiting his father and stepmother. I think he normally lived with his mother.

So he might have been a stranger. But my impression is that Zimmerman had a serious thing about young black men and their perceived danger to his fucking gated community.

I assume that Trayvon's father moved into this place because it would be safe for his kids.

Jesus Christ.

441 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:02:47pm

re: #435 erik_t

I don't for demographic reasons, but I know not to habitually shoot any black kids that I don't know.

It's not hard.

I've never shot at anyone. When someone is OUTSIDE YOUR PROPERTY and NOT BOTHERING YOU, what's so wrong with observing and reporting to the police?

442 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:03:22pm

Kirk Cameron's "history" movie is nothing but a front for Barton's pseudo-history

443 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:03:27pm

re: #441 To hold my temper, most of the time.

But he was looking at houses! Looking! With his EYES!

444 palomino  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:03:33pm

I don't see an extremist like Newt or even Santorum making it onto the ticket. Mitt's spent the last 5 years running, he won't put someone he's been calling "unelectable" on his ticket. Moreover, he'd spend half his time apologizing for Newt's baggage or Rick's latest gaffe.

That's precious time he can use to pander and explain how the self-described "progressive moderate" Romney transformed into the "severly conservative" Romney.

445 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:04:58pm

re: #434 Gus

Was Blythe Danner in that?

Did you not see the "we lied" part??

446 jaunte  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:04:59pm

re: #439 Beware the Green Dragon!

I think the various 'stand your ground' laws are skewed that way by the NRA (hoping that everyone will buy more guns) because it's at core a manufacturer's lobby.

447 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:05:00pm

re: #444 palomino

I don't see an extremist like Newt or even Santorum making it onto the ticket. Mitt's spent the last 5 years running, he won't put someone he's been calling "unelectable" on his ticket. Moreover, he'd spend half his time apologizing for Newt's baggage or Rick's latest gaffe.

That's precious time he can use to pander and explain how the self-described "progressive moderate" Romney transformed into the "severly conservative" Romney.

I see Romney picking a conservative who hasn't been attacking him quite so vehemently.

448 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:06:01pm

re: #445 sattv4u2

Did you not see the "we lied" part??

And she would never lie!

//

449 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:06:30pm

re: #420 ProGunLiberal

Fort Collins. Many of my friends contract it to FOCO, and I use the airport code for Colorado Springs (COS).

re: #408 SanFranciscoZionist

Give me a second while I look it up. I could take a bus, but I would prefer not using greyhound. I would use the Front Range Bus thing.

But then, I would need to connect it to the FOCO-Loveland Bus.

I'm pretty good at navigating bus systems; I've been doing it all my life. Let me know your particulars and I'll see if I can come up with a plan of action for you.

450 sattv4u2  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:06:50pm

re: #448 Gus

And she would never lie!

//

Not about pizza and beer !!

451 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:07:23pm

re: #422 SanFranciscoZionist

Did I say that out loud?

Breath of fresh truth air. gracias

452 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:07:36pm

...

453 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:07:41pm

re: #450 sattv4u2

Not about pizza and beer !!

That would be unmurican!

454 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:07:41pm

re: #411 goddamnedfrank

Newt wants to eat Romney's liver with some fava beans and a nice chianti.

No, Newt Gingrich doesn't eat liberal food like fava beans! He's a Real American, not some artsy-fartsy guy from Europe. Newt would wrap Mitt's liver in bacon, like any Real America would!

/must I?

455 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:08:19pm

re: #452 Gus

...

Edit. Well. That didn't work.

456 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:09:22pm

re: #449 BongCrodny

Need to be able to get to Fort Collins from Colorado Springs before roughly 1230. I haven't figured out the leave time yet. I live in Briargate.

457 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:10:21pm

re: #437 freetoken

What happens when one of America's favorite creationists goes on Faux & Friends?

On Fox & Friends: Kirk Cameron Defends His Homophobic Comment & Promotes His Movie

Oh, be sure to watch the video at Newshounds.

You watch the video, Mr. "Where's the Crocoduck" makes me sick.

458 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:10:25pm

re: #456 ProGunLiberal

Need to be able to get to Fort Collins from Colorado Springs before roughly 1230. I haven't figured out the leave time yet. I live in Briargate.

And back. Don't forget the and back.

That's the part that I always messed up as a college student.

459 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:11:29pm

re: #456 ProGunLiberal

Need to be able to get to Fort Collins from Colorado Springs before roughly 1230. I haven't figured out the leave time yet. I live in Briargate.

Rent a helicopter. :)

460 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:12:03pm

re: #456 ProGunLiberal

Need to be able to get to Fort Collins from Colorado Springs before roughly 1230. I haven't figured out the leave time yet. I live in Briargate.

Note! Build train line (heavy commute electric, 3rd rail or cable) from Colorado Springs all the way to Cheyenne.

461 Stanghazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:12:10pm

re: #446 jaunte

I think the various 'stand your ground' laws are skewed that way by the NRA (hoping that everyone will buy more guns) because it's at core a manufacturer's lobby.

I heard a reporter on NPR today classify the 'stand your ground' law as written by the NRA. A NRA law. Passed by a GOP Florida house/senate.

462 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:12:31pm

re: #459 Dark_Falcon

Rent a helicopter. :)

Take a balloon! Bring champagne! Have a picnic!

463 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:12:45pm

re: #427 Obdicut

I think it probably was written with the best of intentions, which helps explain why hell has followed quickly on its heels.

Best of intentions? Fuck no.

Stand Your Ground implicitly incorporates an interpretative element: that "reasonable belief" of harm that justifies application of lethal force.

First, that is eminently abuse-able by even a slightly clever defense attorney.

Second, the standard of "reasonable belief" immediately is influenced by cultural tropes who's dangerous and who's not...meaning that the claim of reasonable belief is not evaluated just on the basis of the facts of a shooting, but the impressions of the judge/grand jury as to the "threat level" of the injured/dead shooting victim.

It's immediately visible in the Treyvon Martin case: the on-scene cops accept Zimmerman take that there was an assault and don't do their job. The CoP for Sanford makes multiple statements that MBF Zimmerman and Martin's responsibility for the shooting. Zimmerman defenders claim the shooting was legit because there was a physical confrontation and Zimmerman was maybe? struck.

The interpretative gaps in "reasonable belief" create a situation where privilege influences justice. It's opening assault and homicide to the same ease with which victim-blaming is used to deflect rape charges.

It's horseshit.

464 Mich-again  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:13:42pm

re: #444 palomino

Mitt has painted himself into a corner of extremism so I don't think he has any chance of winning regardless of his running mate. I think his best bet for veep would be Condi Rice, but he'll probably pick some southern white Baptist guy to try to shore up the ticket for the base and then crash and burn for it.

465 Gretchen G.Tiger  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:14:12pm

re: #464 Mich-again

Mitt has painted himself into a corner of extremism so I don't think he has any chance of winning regardless of his running mate. I think his best bet for veep would be Condi Rice, but he'll probably pick some southern white Baptist guy to try to shore up the ticket for the base and then crash and burn for it.

Condi is way too smart for the current GOP.

466 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:14:47pm

re: #460 Gus

Thinking the same thing, except that Trinidad and Pueblo would be pissed to be left out.

467 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:14:55pm

re: #463 The Ghost of a Flea

Nothing you wrote had anything to do with the intentions behind the law, though.

468 freetoken  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:14:59pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

The point (as Newshounds zeroed in upon) is that Faux misquoted the statement made by Cameron and tried to make it less threatening - Cameron originally said "homosexuality" not "homosexual marriage."

Anyway, it's just more of Barton-esque revisionist history, one which ignores the complexity of the real discovery, colonization, and European expansion on this continent.

469 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:15:53pm

re: #460 Gus

Note! Build train line (heavy commute electric, 3rd rail or cable) from Colorado Springs all the way to Cheyenne.

I should have known! Leave it to a Peronist Progressive to force others to pay for his mass transit. Go back to Argentina!!1

///

470 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:16:10pm

re: #466 ProGunLiberal

Thinking the same thing, except that Trinidad and Pueblo would be pissed to be left out.

Yeah. But that would be a tough route to sustain. Eventually. Take it all the way to Santa Fe.

471 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:16:21pm

re: #457 Dark_Falcon

Same here, except I value my brain cells. They have so much strain already with my Autism.

Asperger's Syndrome is likely to be merged into High-Functioning Autism in DSM-V.

472 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:16:54pm

re: #469 Dark_Falcon

I should have known! Leave it to a Peronist Progressive to force others to pay for his mass transit. Go back to Argentina!!1

///

Yes! But look at the fiscal consideration noted in #470!

"//"

473 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:17:34pm

re: #470 Gus

At the very least, Pueblo. Pueblo is larger than Cheyenne, and only incrementally smaller than Fort Collins.

474 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:17:36pm

re: #468 freetoken

The point (as Newshounds zeroed in upon) is that Faux misquoted the statement made by Cameron and tried to make it less threatening - Cameron originally said "homosexuality" not "homosexual marriage."

Anyway, it's just more of Barton-esque revisionist history, one which ignores the complexity of the real discovery, colonization, and European expansion on this continent.

I know about Barton and his lies. They piss me off, and its too close to my bedtime for me to get pissed off.

475 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:19:17pm

re: #474 Dark_Falcon

I know about Barton and his lies. They piss me off, and its too close to my bedtime for me to get pissed off.

Man, the GOP must really tick you off, then, huh?

476 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:19:22pm

re: #473 ProGunLiberal

At the very least, Pueblo. Pueblo is larger than Cheyenne, and only incrementally smaller than Fort Collins.

Cheyenne's a much bigger hub though. More bang for the buck with future expansion to points east or west.

477 Dark_Falcon  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:21:40pm

re: #475 Obdicut

Man, the GOP must really tick you off, then, huh?

Don't start. Please don't start. I've got to back off a bit right now, because I need to do a couple things before bed.

478 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:21:56pm

re: #476 Gus

Ah, I see. I'm just looking at population. Pueblo is a fair bit above 100k. So, I would think (and hope) it would be included.

479 Gus  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:23:29pm

re: #478 ProGunLiberal

Ah, I see. I'm just looking at population. Pueblo is a fair bit above 100k. So, I would think (and hope) it would be included.

True. Good terrain. Don't need a bullet. 100-130 MPH would be great.

480 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:24:30pm

re: #467 Obdicut

Nothing you wrote had anything to do with the intentions behind the law, though.

It was written by NRA lobbyists.

Their best intentions involve making sure Their Kind of People get to carry and use guns without being infringed upon by law [enforcement]. Creating a law where gunshot victims are always responsible for getting shot is right up their alley.

Wish I was kidding or being super snarky, but seriously--the NRA asserts insane stuff and love victim blaming. I get recruitment calls at least once a year, and their rhetoric is just a slight variant of general conservative "we are always persecuted" butthurt. The last call I got actually brought up the time in Tennessee when they lobbying against removing guns from the household of a man had been engaging in domestic violence as a good thing.

481 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:26:31pm

re: #364 Learned Mother of Zion

Just some trivia: the expression "scot-free" has nothing to do with people from Scotland committing crimes without getting punished. It comes from the old English word scotofreo which means tax-exempt.

In our family we hijacked the term to exemplify how we are super frugal Scots.

482 Obdicut  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:28:59pm

re: #480 The Ghost of a Flea

It was written by NRA lobbyists.

I know. I'm trying to point out that intentions don't matter for shit, especially since what's 'good' or not depends on your point of view.

Anyway, it's a shitty law. I was just going for the 'road to hell' joke.

483 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:30:45pm

re: #479 Gus

Yep real flat. Though, that really is the case for much of the area, though there are hills. But, we are such a isolated population center, you wouldn't be able to connect us to anything outside of here for a very, very long time.

484 The Ghost of a Benghazi Flea  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:32:29pm

re: #482 Obdicut

I know. I'm trying to point out that intentions don't matter for shit, especially since what's 'good' or not depends on your point of view.

Anyway, it's a shitty law. I was just going for the 'road to hell' joke.

Sorry. This bothers me a great deal. I've been trying to be glib today specifically not to dwell on it, but the subject just makes me very frustrated, which in turn makes me super serious.

485 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:37:43pm

re: #484 The Ghost of a Flea

We have many shitty laws littering the legal books. Unfortunately, the Right has been amped up the last three years, along with the power to write and enact shitty laws. The electorate then has to deal with cleaning up the debris and fall out (i.e. dead, innocent children).

486 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:42:24pm

re: #456 ProGunLiberal

Need to be able to get to Fort Collins from Colorado Springs before roughly 1230. I haven't figured out the leave time yet. I live in Briargate.

I can keep looking, but from what I've been able to figure out, you'd be better off taking Greyhound.

Looks like the non-Greyhound option would be Colorado Springs to Denver, Denver to Boulder, Boulder to Loveland and Loveland to Fort Collins. That's a lot of transfers and likely a lot of waiting time.

What sort of money constraints are you under?

487 ProGunLiberal  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:50:08pm

re: #486 BongCrodny

Less than $50 or so dollars. I did some looking up too. I found that FLEX and FREX can cover the two ends, and the Transit system in Denver very possibly could carry the rest.

488 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:53:44pm

re: #487 ProGunLiberal

Less than $50 or so dollars. I did some looking up too. I found that FLEX and FREX can cover the two ends, and the Transit system in Denver very possibly could carry the rest.

Yeah, I saw both the FLEX and FREX, but I couldn't get the connection from Denver to Loveland. If there's a Denver-Loveland link, it sounds like your problem is solved.

There's another option, but I'm not sure of the price. I don't know your address, so I can't enter the actual location.

You could take SuperShuttle from Colorado Springs to the Denver airport, and then take a different SuperShuttle from the Denver airport to Fort Collins.

489 BongGhazi  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:54:51pm

re: #487 ProGunLiberal

Less than $50 or so dollars. I did some looking up too. I found that FLEX and FREX can cover the two ends, and the Transit system in Denver very possibly could carry the rest.

But the FLEX/FREX/Denver local option would likely be less expensive, if you can make it work.

490 ghazidor  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:56:08pm

re: #395 freetoken

It has been noted by many that Mitt Romney does well in states that Obama will carry in November.

Even if true (and it seems so), what does that mean?

I think this race will end up being a lot closer than anyone believes now simply because they do take it for granted. Voter apathy on the left (Obama is obviously going to win anyway) and the groundless "get that evil socialist (muslim) that is destroying America Out!" fervor on the Right are going to combine to make this election a near toss-up.

We. Will. Lose. If people stay home instead of driving to the polls or decide it isn't worth their time to leave work to vote. People seem comfortable in predicting an Obama victory, that isn't going to happen if too many folks rely on others to make it to the polls for them.

If we lose even a tiny percentage of the small percentage of citizens who actually vote it will make a big difference on election day. I really wish people would quit saying Obama has this election in the bag, he doesn't, especially if people really start to believe it to be true and don't bother to show up on election day.

491 prairiefire  Tue, Mar 20, 2012 9:59:22pm

re: #490 Tiny Alien Kitties are Watching You

I think this race will end up being a lot closer than anyone believes now simply because they do take it for granted. Voter apathy on the left (Obama is obviously going to win anyway) and the groundless "get that evil socialist (muslim) that is destroying America Out!" fervor on the Right are going to combine to make this election a near toss-up.

We. Will. Lose. If people stay home instead of driving to the polls or decide it isn't worth their time to leave work to vote. People seem comfortable in predicting an Obama victory, that isn't going to happen if too many folks rely on others to make it to the polls for them.

If we lose even a tiny percentage of the small percentage of citizens who actually vote it will make a big difference on election day. I really wish people would quit saying Obama has this election in the bag, he doesn't, especially if people really start to believe it to be true and don't bother to show up on election day.

The White House has alluded to the fact they think it will be close.

492 Flavia  Wed, Mar 21, 2012 7:20:18am

Sorry, I can't get past Charles' headline - BWAHAHAHA!. Then again, is there any need - I mean, it says it all! (Then again, the fact that it's true kinds takes the actual fun out of it. Sigh.)


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