Digging a Little Deeper

Science • Views: 1,884

Come with us now on a journey into the philosophical implications of … Intelligent Design?

Since Charles over at LGF was kind enough to link to my blog in this article, and identified me as an “anti-intelligent design” blogger, I figured it would be best to write something about the issue (other than commending Charles for his similar stance, as I did below). Since I discuss this issue in my Introduction to Philosophy class, I fortunately have some comments readily at hand…

While the intelligent design movement that concerns Charles focuses on the theory of evolution, arguments from (apparent) design to the conclusion that God exists date back at least to Aquinas, and the earliest ones had little (if anything) to do with biological evolution per se. Aquinas, for instance, argued from an Aristotelian conception of all things natural having a purpose. His argument, roughly, went like this:

Read the whole thing. You know you wanna.

Jump to bottom

410 comments
1 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:22:16pm
2 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:22:37pm
3 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:23:48pm

re: #1 ziggyelman

I hope stinky deletes your juvenile comment(s).

4 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:23:56pm

Another treatise on intelligent design…

Again, you can’t use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn’t get into via logic.

5 ziggyelman  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:24:40pm

No humor tonight WhiteRasta?

6 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:25:20pm

Great stuff. Larry A. Herzberg gives it to the ID crowd with the bark on.

7 pat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:25:37pm

Sounds just like my Philosophy classes. lol

8 ziggyelman  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:25:38pm

re: #4 looking closely

Another treatise on intelligent design…

Again, you can’t use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn’t get into via logic.

True that.

9 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:25:58pm
10 Dustyvet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:26:03pm

Enjoy the moment lad, you’ll not be there long.

11 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:26:08pm

None, tonight. (Bad day at work) So I want to make everyone suffer…..

12 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:26:22pm

re: #5 ziggyelman

No humor tonight WhiteRasta?

Read the rules at the top of the pages. I quote: ‘Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, “First!”’

13 ziggyelman  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:27:06pm

re: #11 WhiteRasta

None, tonight. (Bad day at work) So I want to make everyone suffer…..

Fair enough. ;)

14 jelo  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:27:15pm

re: #2 ziggyelman

and die you will

15 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:27:37pm
16 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:27:49pm

re: #9 looking closely

Don’t tell Our Host what to post……

(Damn, I’m bitchy, tonight…)

17 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:28:09pm
18 ziggyelman  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:28:11pm

re: #12 Dark_Falcon

Read the rules at the top of the pages. I quote: ‘Posts that contain phone numbers, street addresses, email addresses or other personal information will also be deleted, as will posts that consist only of a variation on the word, “First!”’

I’ve seen it, and Charles is more than free to delete it…I just was surprised to see no “action” yet on this thread….Need a bell or something to get people to know a new one is posted….

19 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:28:33pm

The probability of our being here now on an intelligent design thread is, however unlikely, 100%.

20 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:28:45pm

re: #9 looking closely

Knock it off. Charles has made it pretty clear than he will delete posts that whine about evolution threads and block the poster.

21 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:29:32pm

I’m supposed to be writing, not reading yet more stuff!

22 ziggyelman  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:29:34pm

re: #14 jelo

and die you will

Each second brings us all closer.

23 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:31:05pm

re: #21 Dianna

I’m supposed to be writing, not reading yet more stuff!

I know how you feel. I can’t get away from LGF when one of these threads is active. I love whacking trolls too much. :)

24 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:31:07pm

Good stuff! I love a good philosophical discussion.

25 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:33:09pm

Well that didn’t take long.

26 Dustyvet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:33:15pm

re: #15 Killian Bundy

/lame

re: #23 Dark_Falcon

I know how you feel. I can’t get away from LGF when one of these threads is active. I love whacking trolls too much. :)

275 yards to the green, Troll hiding in the rough…Club suggestions?/S

27 Dustyvet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:34:17pm

re: #10 Dustyvet

Enjoy the moment lad, you’ll not be there long.

Poof!

28 hazzyday  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:34:34pm

Do thoughts exist outside the limits of time and space?

29 saberry0530  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:34:52pm

re: #26 Dustyvet

275 yards to the green, Troll hiding in the rough…Club suggestions?/S

5 wood with a strong fade.

30 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:35:03pm

It was a pretty good take down on an ID line of reasoning. They like to invoke God where gaps in the knowledge exist while never considering that in the future the scientific explanations for those gaps could be found.

31 [deleted]  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:35:07pm
32 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:36:23pm

re: #26 Dustyvet

275 yards to the green, Troll hiding in the rough…Club suggestions?/S

here

33 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:36:45pm

Am I the only one who gets this when I click on Charles’ links?

The webpage cannot be found
HTTP 404
Most likely causes:
There might be a typing error in the address.
If you clicked on a link, it may be out of date.

What you can try:
Retype the address.

Go back to the previous page.

Go to and look for the information you want.

More information

This error (HTTP 404 Not Found) means that this program was able to connect to the website, but the page you wanted was not found. It’s possible that the webpage is temporarily unavailable. Alternatively, the website might have changed or removed the webpage.

34 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:37:01pm

re: #26 Dustyvet

275 yards to the green, Troll hiding in the rough…Club suggestions?/S

I’d go with a nine iron. Sneak up quietly, then wrap the club around the troll’s neck.

/kidding

35 Dustyvet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:37:11pm

re: #29 saberry0530

5 wood with a strong fade.

Shazam….a troll on one!


S/

36 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:37:41pm

re: #31 looking closely

Yes. I hope that your predictions are wrong. But I doubt it.

37 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:09pm

The problem is that our single datum entitles us to conclude neither that our situation is typical (probable), nor that it is atypical (improbable).

Finally, someone who speaks for ME (I’m still a single datum).

38 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:10pm

re: #33 MandyManners

I went right to the article.

39 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:15pm

re: #20 Dark_Falcon

Knock it off. Charles has made it pretty clear than he will delete posts that whine about evolution threads and block the poster.


Usually, I just skip these threads.

I must have missed that (and I just got whacked…I think for the first time).

Sorry Charles. Won’t happen again.

40 pat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:17pm

Now how did Alouette get deleted? She is usually very civil.

41 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:30pm

re: #2 ziggyelman

I don’t know what your first post said but, GROW UP. You’ve been here a long time. Don’t waste your privilege!

And, DON’T FORGET THE IRON FIST RULE.

42 VioletTiger  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:38:56pm

Wow, this is hotter than the volcano thread.
/

43 pat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:39:05pm

re: #33 MandyManners

No came right up.

44 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:39:29pm

re: #38 Sharmuta

I went right to the article.

I can’t. This is the first time this has happened to me.

45 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:40:02pm

I’m gonna’ shut down my connection. bbiab

46 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:41:16pm

re: #31 looking closely


In three years time, when Iran has nukes, when the Russians have seized the Ukraine, when gas is $4.00 a gallon again, when inflation is at 7%, with sky high taxes, I just don’t think Creationism is going to be high on the radar screen.

This is about the defense of humanity’s search for the truth. Centuries of people sacrificed their lives to accumulate the knowledge we have today. Evolution is one of the most wonderful discoveries…

And if the world goes to hell, yes, defending that knowledge will be high on our radar screen…

47 Dustyvet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:41:16pm

re: #21 Dianna

I’m supposed to be writing, not reading yet more stuff!

Writing a term paper?

48 Killgore Trout  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:41:22pm

Well written, thoughtful and concise.
/high praise

49 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:42:11pm

Well, apparently I’m unable to get it.

50 Randall Gross  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:44:09pm

Well done and much easier to follow than the average philosopher.

51 gymmom  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:44:24pm

Makes me miss college (although my liver probably doesn’t!)

52 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:45:19pm

Gosh, let’s see. Yes, Herzberg deflates the idea of “purpose”, but really, that’s only one pro-ID argument. Another problem with ID is regress - if God or aliens created life, who created them? Nothing is resolved. Not to mention, if life was created, well, how, and even if it was, it might then evolve, and the evidence that the universe (not just your township) is many billions of years old, is impossible to doubt. Anyway, if you *start* with the belief in God, the idea of purpose *follows* from that, rather than proceeds from it. Your average ID’r is not trying to deduce the existence of God by observing finches. Just sayin’.

53 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:50:46pm

Did I just miss the earliest ID meltdown yet? Or was that flurry of deletions all about the same comment #1?

54 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:50:54pm

Frank J. at IMAO posts a not-so-nice piece about Charles and his ID threads:

Defining Science Down
Posted by Frank J. on February 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm

So what is it with Charles Johnson and evolution? He’s like starting a “We Hate Creationists” club. To my knowledge, Charles Johnson does not work in any are of biological sciences. He has never done any scientific work on evolution so instead it’s just something he read about and decided it was really really important for everyone else to believe. Know who else reads something and decides it’s super important for everyone else to believe it?

55 unclassifiable  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:52:07pm

This is a good reason why ID needs to be introduced into philosophy rather than forced into science.

56 CynicalConservative  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:52:32pm

re: #53 Last Mohican

Did I just miss the earliest ID meltdown yet? Or was that flurry of deletions all about the same comment #1?

Not quite a meltdown, just a rambling ‘I usually don’t read these threads’ with some appended crap.

57 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:52:34pm
Aquinas, for instance, argued from an Aristotelian conception of all things natural having a purpose.

A little bit of background why Aristotle gets mentioned in this debate… Aristotle proposed a theory of creation that was just as ridiculous as the Young Earth Creationist version.

Aristotelian abiogenesis, also known as spontaneous generation.. was the theory according to which fully formed living organisms sometimes arise from not-living matter. Aristotle explicitly taught this form of abiogenesis, and laid it down as an observed fact that some animals spring from putrid matter, that plant lice arise from the dew which falls on plants, that fleas are developed from putrid matter, that mice come from dirty hay, and so forth.
58 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:52:48pm

re: #47 Dustyvet

Writing a term paper?

No, I’m in the midst of the second draft of my novel.

I only thought the first draft was trying!

59 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:53:27pm

re: #52 itellu3times

Gosh, let’s see. Yes, Herzberg deflates the idea of “purpose”, but really, that’s only one pro-ID argument. Another problem with ID is regress - if God or aliens created life, who created them? Nothing is resolved. Not to mention, if life was created, well, how, and even if it was, it might then evolve, and the evidence that the universe (not just your township) is many billions of years old, is impossible to doubt. Anyway, if you *start* with the belief in God, the idea of purpose *follows* from that, rather than proceeds from it. Your average ID’r is not trying to deduce the existence of God by observing finches. Just sayin’.

To paraphrase gymmom at No. 51, this makes me miss college, although my lungs probably don’t.

60 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:53:28pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

I might as well end this with a nice useless factoid. Ever been told that dinosaurs died out 65.5 million years ago? That is a well known, scientifically inaccurate statement. Scientific consensus is that humans and dinosaurs have lived at the same time within the past few thousand years, much like young-earth creationists claim.*

Good gravy, what is he babbling about?

61 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:54:21pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

Frank J. at IMAO posts a not-so-nice piece about Charles and his ID threads:

Defining Science Down
Posted by Frank J. on February 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm

I’d say that’s his problem. The concern is one that - in any sane world - would be shared by any educated person.

62 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:54:58pm

re: #53 Last Mohican

Did I just miss the earliest ID meltdown yet? Or was that flurry of deletions all about the same comment #1?

re: #56 CynicalConservative

Not quite a meltdown, just a rambling ‘I usually don’t read these threads’ with some appended crap.

Might have been a violation of the IRON FIST RULE.

63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:55:09pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

Just for you.

Was at our “haunt” yesterday. Sat with a group of 6 old codgers who come in there just about every day. (was at the bar). After chatting with them, I found I was sitting with a Judge, a CPA, 3 PHD’s and an MBA.

Lively and fun discussion.

64 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:55:31pm

re: #58 Dianna

No, I’m in the midst of the second draft of my novel.

I only thought the first draft was trying!

You go, Dianna!

65 doppelganglander  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:56:01pm

This may be just the spot for a quotation I discovered today on an Australian anti-Islamofascist website. I won’t link because they seem to think Geert Wilders is the second coming, but I thought this was interesting:

Muhammad brought down from heaven and put into the Koran not religious doctrines only, but political maxims, criminal and civil laws, and scientific theories. The Gospels, on the other hand, deal only with the general relations between man and God and between man and man. Beyond that, they teach nothing and do not oblige people to believe anything. That alone, among a thousand reasons, is enough to show that Islam will not be able to hold its power long in ages of enlightenment and democracy, while Christianity is destined to reign in such ages, as in all others.

Alexis de Tocqueville (1805–1859), French social philosopher. Democracy in America, vol. 2, pt. 1, ch. 5 (1840).

66 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:56:05pm

re: #60 itellu3times

Good gravy, what is he babbling about?

I’m afraid to ask, but either he’s talking about birds, or he buys the “fossil footprints” business.

67 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:56:32pm

re: #46 Basho

This is about the defense of humanity’s search for the truth. Centuries of people sacrificed their lives to accumulate the knowledge we have today. Evolution is one of the most wonderful discoveries…

And if the world goes to hell, yes, defending that knowledge will be high on our radar screen…


No need to be so melodramatic.

Darwin didn’t “sacrifice his life”, he lived to be over 70 years old, and saw his theory widely accepted by the public during his lifetime.

As a scientific theory, evolution its pretty well established. Evolutionary theory is not going to “go away” no matter how much Creationism is pushed in schools. The knowlege isn’t going to be lost; at WORST you’ll just have fewer members of the public accepting it.

As a political issue at the Federal level, it remains to be seen how important this is in the next election cycle, but George Bush got elected twice as POTUS, even though he waffled on this issue of teaching “intelligent design” in schools.

68 CynicalConservative  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:56:33pm

re: #62 MandyManners

Might have been a violation of the IRON FIST RULE.

Agree. I think it was a poorly disguised attempt to circumvent the rule on whining thread topics. Not surprised at the deletions.

69 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:57:31pm

re: #59 MandyManners

To paraphrase gymmom at No. 51, this makes me miss college, although my lungs probably don’t.

Well, I miss college too, most organs included. So happens I’m still trying to complete that term paper, xxx years later, and that’s included me reading rather a lot about evolution even before it became popular around here, leaving me well positioned to rant and rant and rant …

70 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:57:33pm

re: #53 Last Mohican

Did I just miss the earliest ID meltdown yet? Or was that flurry of deletions all about the same comment #1?

FWIW, I got zapped for whining, not because of invective or advocacy of a particular pro or anti-ID position.

71 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:57:53pm

re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I once sat in a bar in Ft. Lauderdale and chatted with a guy who turned out to be an ex B-25 pilot in WW2.

The people you meet, sometimes….

72 doppelganglander  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:58:14pm

re: #58 Dianna

No, I’m in the midst of the second draft of my novel.

I only thought the first draft was trying!

I am very impressed. I can’t seem to get a full chapter going, let alone a full draft. I wish you all the success in the world.

73 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:58:36pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

Fascinating. Allow me to quote the end of that piece:

I might as well end this with a nice useless factoid. Ever been told that dinosaurs died out 65.5 million years ago? That is a well known, scientifically inaccurate statement. Scientific consensus is that humans and dinosaurs have lived at the same time within the past few thousand years, much like young-earth creationists claim.

Professor Herzberg ain’t got nothing on that argument. Wow, that’s convincing. And he didn’t even need to resort to posting that picture of the little girl feeding lettuce to the brontosaurus.

74 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 7:58:42pm

re: #66 Dianna

I’m afraid to ask, but either he’s talking about birds, or he buys the “fossil footprints” business.

Maybe he had his toes chewed off by a komodo dragon.

75 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:00:27pm

re: #62 MandyManners

Might have been a violation of the IRON FIST RULE.


I wish…
Unfortunately not.
Its a “school night”.

76 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:00:49pm

re: #71 WhiteRasta

But you have to speak to folks first. I have met some ab/fab people in my life. Others’ll sit there, eat their meal and go on.

I’ve learned more talking with strangers than with teachers.

77 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:00:56pm

re: #63 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Just for you.

Was at our “haunt” yesterday. Sat with a group of 6 old codgers who come in there just about every day. (was at the bar). After chatting with them, I found I was sitting with a Judge, a CPA, 3 PHD’s and an MBA.

Lively and fun discussion.

Fat bastard…how are ya?

I was sitting there one time and an elderly couple came in and sat next to me at the bar. They were just passing through town but he used to work at Sperry Marine in town way back when. Turns out he designed the navigation system for the space shuttle.

You never know who you might run into in that small town.

78 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #74 itellu3times

Maybe he had his toes chewed off by a komodo dragon.

Lay off, you guys, it’s scientific consensus, ‘kay?

79 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:01:12pm

re: #73 Last Mohican

Professor Herzberg ain’t got nothing on that argument. Wow, that’s convincing. And he didn’t even need to resort to posting that picture of the little girl feeding lettuce to the brontosaurus.

A nice digital picture, I hope, clarity is everything.
/

80 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:01:16pm

re: #74 itellu3times

Maybe he had his toes chewed off by a komodo dragon.

I don’t know if that would convince me of anything except the wisdom of avoiding komodo dragons, or carrying a shotgun.

81 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:01:27pm

re: #73 Last Mohican

Fascinating. Allow me to quote the end of that piece:
Scientific consensus is that humans and dinosaurs have lived at the same time within the past few thousand years, much like young-earth creationists claim.
Professor Herzberg ain’t got nothing on that argument. Wow, that’s convincing. And he didn’t even need to resort to posting that picture of the little girl feeding lettuce to the brontosaurus.

Hey, anyone who watched The Flintstones knows that!

82 CynicalConservative  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:02:03pm

re: #70 looking closely

FWIW, I got zapped for whining, not because of invective or advocacy of a particular pro or anti-ID position.

Nothing terribly off base I think, just a case of “choose your words carefully”. Deletions aren’t bannings.

83 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:02:12pm

re: #77 NJDhockeyfan

dayam!

84 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:02:28pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

It’s strange how much time people spend talking about what Charles posts at LGF, and how it doesn’t really matter.

85 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:02:38pm

If I can morph two separate Aristotle theories, he said that aphids somehow sprang forth from the dew on leaves and mice just appeared in the piles of hay and that these events were observable facts that happened for a purpose.

If he were posting here now we’d think the dude was on crack or something.

86 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:03:17pm

re: #71 WhiteRasta

I once sat in a bar in Ft. Lauderdale and chatted with a guy who turned out to be an ex B-25 pilot in WW2.

The people you meet, sometimes….

Yeah, I once met a B-17 pilot who’d been captured by the Germans at a kiosk I was working at. My two discussions with him were among the most interesting of my life. It is one thing to read about history, its another to meet someone who lived it.

87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:03:38pm

re: #84 jaunte

Been hoping I’d run into you. The “cover” art was fantastic.

88 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:03:43pm

re: #77 NJDhockeyfan

Fat bastard…how are ya?

I was sitting there one time and an elderly couple came in and sat next to me at the bar. They were just passing through town but he used to work at Sperry Marine in town way back when. Turns out he designed the navigation system for the space shuttle.

You never know who you might run into in that small town.

I had breakfast with Cher Bono in Aspen one time…big whoop

89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:04:30pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

What were Germans doing at your kiosk?

/

90 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:04:35pm

re: #84 jaunte

It’s strange how much time people spend talking about what Charles posts at LGF, and how it doesn’t really matter.

You would think people ignore the sites they are not interested in. I don’t see why they must get themselves in a frenzy and post stuff like that.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:04:53pm

re: #85 Mich-again

If I can morph two separate Aristotle theories, he said that aphids somehow sprang forth from the dew on leaves and mice just appeared in the piles of hay and that these events were observable facts that happened for a purpose.

If he were posting here now we’d think the dude was on crack or something.

Well, yes, we would. And if he were insisting this now, we’d be correct.

92 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:05:05pm

re: #67 looking closely

No need to be so melodramatic.

Darwin didn’t “sacrifice his life”, he lived to be over 70 years old, and saw his theory widely accepted by the public during his lifetime.

As a scientific theory, evolution its pretty well established. Evolutionary theory is not going to “go away” no matter how much Creationism is pushed in schools. The knowlege isn’t going to be lost; at WORST you’ll just have fewer members of the public accepting it.

As a political issue at the Federal level, it remains to be seen how important this is in the next election cycle, but George Bush got elected twice as POTUS, even though he waffled on this issue of teaching “intelligent design” in schools.

Yes, Darwin did sacrifice his life. He put a lot of work into developing this theory which could have failed, and that would have been years wasted. Every search for truth is a gamble.

And what exactly do you think Iran will do with a nuke? I personally think they’ll push their theocratic agenda.

93 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:05:07pm

re: #74 itellu3times

Maybe he had his toes chewed off by a komodo dragon.

Charles can sic them on creationists you know. They are monitor lizards and often uses them to spot and devour trolls.

94 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:05:39pm

re: #87 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Thanks! I guess I should go and buy one, now.

95 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:05:50pm

re: #4 looking closely

Another treatise on intelligent design…

Again, you can’t use logic to argue someone out of a position they didn’t get into via logic.

credit: George Will.

96 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:06:19pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Yes. True. It was fascinating to chat with this gentleman who had actually been there and done that,

97 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:07:05pm

re: #89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What were Germans doing at your kiosk?

/

They were at a another place I worked. :) That mall (Woodfield Mall) draws people from all over the world.

98 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:07:38pm

re: #81 Killer Tomato

Hey, anyone who watched The Flintstones knows that!

They mixed cement in a pelicans bill, too.

99 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:07:50pm

re: #86 Dark_Falcon

Yeah, I once met a B-17 pilot who’d been captured by the Germans at a kiosk I was working at. My two discussions with him were among the most interesting of my life. It is one thing to read about history, its another to meet someone who lived it.

My wife (nurse) had a patient who was a Canadian bomber pilot from WWll. He was shot down and went to the POW camp that The Great Escape was based on. He actually took part in digging one of the tunnels!

100 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:09:03pm

re: #92 Basho

Yes, Darwin did sacrifice his life. He put a lot of work into developing this theory which could have failed, and that would have been years wasted.

Potentially wasting your life does not equal sacrificing it. Heck lots of people completely waste their lives but you wouldn’t say they actually “sacrificed” them. Thats a big word.

101 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:09:47pm

re: #89 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What were Germans doing at your kiosk?

/

Silly question. He hired the Germans to help him extricate the elephant from his pajamas, of course.

102 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:09:51pm

re: #94 jaunte

Thanks! I guess I should go and buy one, now.

YOU HAVEN’T BOUGHT ONE YET?
I cannot believe it …

103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:10:19pm

Oh, by the way. I am not feeling stimulated.

104 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:10:44pm

re: #103 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

TMI.

105 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:10:56pm

re: #102 reine.de.tout

Heh! I have been procrastinating..

106 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:10:58pm

re: #67 looking closely

No need to be so melodramatic.

Darwin didn’t “sacrifice his life”, he lived to be over 70 years old, and saw his theory widely accepted by the public during his lifetime.

As a scientific theory, evolution its pretty well established. Evolutionary theory is not going to “go away” no matter how much Creationism is pushed in schools. The knowlege isn’t going to be lost; at WORST you’ll just have fewer members of the public accepting it.

As a political issue at the Federal level, it remains to be seen how important this is in the next election cycle, but George Bush got elected twice as POTUS, even though he waffled on this issue of teaching “intelligent design” in schools.

Again, I’ll point out the following about Gov. Jindal.

He has violated his own state’s constitution.

&sect8. Freedom of Religion

Section 8. No law shall be enacted respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.

JINDAL HAS NOT WAFFLED ON THIS ISSUE. HE HAS KNOWINGLY PLACED HIMSELF IN THE POSITION OF PROMOTING RELIGION IN GOVERNMENT.

On a side note, the references to Pres. Bush are sickening.

107 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:11:02pm

re: #88 albusteve

I had breakfast with Cher Bono in Aspen one time

Wow, cool!

108 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:11:16pm

re: #102 reine.de.tout

I’ll be buying one as soon as my damn replacement debit card gets here. Been waitin’!

109 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:11:28pm

On the political “folly” of believing in Creationism, honestly, I’m just not convinced this is a deal-breaker on the national level. Apparently there have been multiple US presidents who have believed in Creationism:


During a 1980 press conference, presidential candidate Ronald Reagan was asked if he thought the theory of evolution should be taught in public schools.

He answered that evolution is a theory only, and it has in recent years been challenged in the world of science and is not yet believed in the scientific community to be as infallible as it once was believed. But if it was going to be taught in the schools, then I think that also the biblical theory of creation, which is not a theory but the biblical story of creation, should also be taught (Science, 1980, p. 1214).


Again, I personally disagree with Reagan here, but politically speaking, this position didn’t seem to hurt him too badly, did it?

110 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:11:58pm

It’s an incredibly expensive simulation of stimulation.

111 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:12:04pm

re: #88 albusteve

I had breakfast with Cher Bono

I burned one with Tommie Lee..

112 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:12:44pm

re: #68 CynicalConservative

Agree. I think it was a poorly disguised attempt to circumvent the rule on whining thread topics. Not surprised at the deletions.

Well, if that’s the case, I hope he drinks a lot of water.

113 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:12:53pm

re: #111 Mich-again

I burned one with Tommie Lee..

I did lines with the drummer of the Box Tops.

114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:05pm

re: #88 albusteve

While I am not gay, I would have preferred Sonny.

115 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:06pm

re: #98 Bloodnok

They mixed cement in a pelicans bill, too.

If you think about it, their level of technology was amazing. And to have had the foresight to film their day to day lives for posterity! Remarkable, really.
I don’t even know why we’re bothering with these threads.
/

116 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:31pm

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

Nice. That tops my story. Anyone else?

117 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:33pm

re: #88 albusteve

I had breakfast with Cher Bono in Aspen one time…big whoop

re: #111 Mich-again

I burned one with Tommie Lee..

I got a rock.

118 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:40pm

re: #54 NJDhockeyfan

Frank J. at IMAO posts a not-so-nice piece about Charles and his ID threads:

Defining Science Down
Posted by Frank J. on February 25, 2009 at 12:21 pm

Bummer. Frank used to be funny.

119 Rexatosis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:53pm

If I recall my reading of Aquinas (and that was quite a while ago) he equated the existence of a rational universe (based on the Aristotlian view) with a rational Creator (God) to logically (through deductive reasoning) prove the existance of God. It was not that inanimate objects were rational but they followed rational rules. Though Aquinas’ language is that of the middle ages I see and can recall nothing in his argument that violates Newtonian Physics (or Einstein’s) nor violates Darwin’s theory of evolution. In fact it is my strong opinion Aquinas’ view is reinforced by the later scientific discoveries showing the Universe functions under rational laws that can be understood and used to predict future events (such as eclipses, etc.). Since the prevailing theory on the origins of the Universe argues for a point of origin (the Big Bang Theory) from which the Universe was begat (to borrow a Biblical term) it would seem logical to assume whatever begat the Universe (by definition the Creator) was rational. And since God is a synonym for the Creator, God can be assumed to have been Rational. If we accept such an argument (based on Aquinas) all we have is God creating a Rational Universe operating under rational laws. Of course that would lead to the question of “Since God created a rational Universe operating under rational laws why would it be necessary for God to have to “tinker” with “his” (or her or its) handywork as the “intelligent design” advocates claim rather than letting the rational laws of physics and evolution play out?” It is not necessary to reject the deductive reasoning of Aquinas to accept Evolution nor is it necessary to create strawmen based on a very narrow and biased reading of Aquinas (Thomas Aquinas was, to put it bluntly, one of the greatest intellects of the Middle Ages, he was not a twit, did not think rocks had intellect, and to use that as a strawman is pathetically weak and insulting and does not do justice to Medaeval Thought nor today’s academic enviornment.).

120 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:13:54pm

I read the whole thing, and it makes sense, but I really find nothing in the article in which to be inspired. It just leaves me cold, as if this entire thing that we call life is just an accident of carbon based chemistry, and that is not the thing that poets write about.

I will have to look elsewhere for inspiration, I suppose.

121 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:14:34pm

re: #111 Mich-again

I burned one with Tommie Lee..

I’ve burned one with quite a few musicians…alas T Lee was not one of them

122 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:14:35pm

re: #116 Mich-again

Nice. That tops my story. Anyone else?

I also burned one with Lester Chambers. He was a hoot.

123 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:14:49pm

re: #100 Mich-again

Potentially wasting your life does not equal sacrificing it. Heck lots of people completely waste their lives but you wouldn’t say they actually “sacrificed” them. Thats a big word.

Well… gamble their lives. No one gets to be at the top of an intellectual field without spending years in solitude studying while everyone else is out having fun and making fun of the weirdo who spends all his days at the library. This computer I’m using alone must have been the product of hundreds of thousands of total hours and thousands of people stuck in a laboratory while other satisfied their every whim.

124 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:15:03pm

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

I did lines with the drummer of the Box Tops.

Pararphrasing Norm McDonald…

I dreamed I was in a pool swimming naked toward Christie Brinkley and woke up. Went back to sleep, tried to dream the same dream.

I dreamed I was shooting pool naked with David Brinkley.

125 Achilles Tang  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:15:13pm

1) Life would never have evolved if certain physical constants had been slightly different.
2) There are only three possible explanations of the observed values of those constants: physical laws, sheer luck, or intelligent design.
3) Known physical laws do not explain the observed values.
4) Given all of the possibilities, it is highly unlikely that the observed values are the result of luck.

One perspective of this, not mentioned, is that when speaking of “physical constants” it is normally assumed that one changes one while leaving others the same. In other words, they are independent of each other.

We have no reason to believe that. In fact we have reason to believe the contrary in terms of linkages that are known between laws and forces of physics, or math.

Therefore, it seems just as reasonable to suppose that if one constant were changed, others would change with it.

Therefore it seems just as reasonable to suppose that what we see and what we are is but one of many probabilities. This just happens to be ours.

126 CynicalConservative  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:15:18pm

re: #112 MandyManners

Well, if that’s the case, I hope he drinks a lot of water.

On a side note, how the hell are ya?

127 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:15:29pm

re: #69 itellu3times

Well, I miss college too, most organs included. So happens I’m still trying to complete that term paper, xxx years later, and that’s included me reading rather a lot about evolution even before it became popular around here, leaving me well positioned to rant and rant and rant …

The most pressing issue I had when I came here was the history/scope of Haj Amin al-Husseini.

To me, he’s right up there with Hitler.

128 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:16:04pm

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

I did lines with the drummer of the Box Tops.

Randy Brecker rode in my car once. (I wasn’t driving it.)

129 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:16:21pm

re: #109 looking closely

That is an excellent point. Reagan was wrong there, and I believe that times have changed enough that a modern presidential candidate wouldn’t get away as easily with a statement like this. Also, the the page that you pulled the quote from is full of misleading junk. None of which diminishes the fact that you make an excellent point.

130 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:16:25pm

re: #101 Last Mohican

Silly question. He hired the Germans to help him extricate the elephant from his pajamas, of course.

SMACK!

131 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:16:35pm

re: #92 Basho

Yes, Darwin did sacrifice his life. He put a lot of work into developing this theory which could have failed, and that would have been years wasted. Every search for truth is a gamble.

And what exactly do you think Iran will do with a nuke? I personally think they’ll push their theocratic agenda.


Your defintion of “sacrifice” is, apparently, different than mine.

On Iran and the nuke, that’s a good question. They’ll use it to push hegemony across the middle east.

While that would certainly include a push on their theocratic agenda, it would likely also enable more mundane things, like escalation in terrorism both against Israel and globally, perhaps a renewed aggressiveness against neighbors (eg Iran), etc.

While I don’t think Iran would actually launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Israel, or directly transfer a weapon or nuclear material to terrorists, I also don’t think you can simply exclude those possibilities out of hand.

132 WhiteRasta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:14pm

re: #107 Last Mohican

I got shit faced drunk with Jimmy Buffet’s guitarist one time, in the Bahamas.. True story.

133 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:14pm

re: #128 capitalist piglet

Randy Brecker rode in my car once. (I wasn’t driving it.)

I once split a Zagnut bar with Soupy Sales.

/

134 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:30pm

re: #117 Bloodnok

I got a rock.

You need a better costume.

135 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:40pm

re: #114 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

While I am not gay, I would have preferred Sonny.

me too…she was a self centered bust that didn’t fare well with the rugged mountain types that let her join our table

136 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:43pm

re: #119 Rexatosis

Awesome post my friend.

I thought the linked blog post was a very weak attempt at linking Aquinas to Creationist BS. And somewhere out there lots of parents are paying some University good money for that guy to teach their kids about Philosophy.

Hopefully not how to write as well. It was Joe the Plumber level writing.

137 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:49pm

re: #119 Rexatosis

Very, very good. Thank you for posting that.

138 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:17:51pm

re: #133 Bloodnok

I once split a Zagnut bar with Soupy Sales.

/

I was in the bathroom with Deniece Williams.

139 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:10pm

re: #109 looking closely

On the political “folly” of believing in Creationism, honestly, I’m just not convinced this is a deal-breaker on the national level. Apparently there have been multiple US presidents who have believed in Creationism:

Bless your heart.

YOU DON’T SEEM TO GET THE GIST!


Again, I personally disagree with Reagan here, but politically speaking, this position didn’t seem to hurt him too badly, did it?

140 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:36pm

re: #109 looking closely

i dinged you down, and I’ll tell you why. Because that is still the only quote of Reagan’s that I’ve seen on this issue. He made that comment to a group of Evangelicals in Texas, and it could have been some pandering on his part. He was a politician, after all. I need something more from Reagan before I accept that he’s the creationist he’s being portrayed as by you and others.

141 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:39pm

re: #133 Bloodnok

I once split a Zagnut bar with Soupy Sales.

/

Wait a minute. Mine are true. Are we supposed to be making these up?

142 Brit in Japan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:51pm

Semi-OT:

That tricksy God keeps laying false surprises to make us believe in the evil nazism evolution doesn’t he?

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

BiJ

143 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:55pm

re: #123 Basho

This computer I’m using alone must have been the product of hundreds of thousands of total hours and thousands of people stuck in a laboratory while other satisfied their every whim.

Or maybe albusteve designed it.

144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:18:56pm

re: #138 capitalist piglet

Let’s hear it for the boy?

I peed beside Peyton Manning.

145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:19:46pm

re: #144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

He was maaaaad!

146 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:19:55pm

the surrender or destruction of something prized or desirable for the sake of something considered as having a higher or more pressing claim.

I know the word has developed a sacredness with some but I was in the bounds of the definition.

147 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:20:03pm

re: #145 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I was beside him, on the street.

/

148 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:20:14pm

re: #144 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Let’s hear it for the boy?

I peed beside Peyton Manning.

Yes! Her!

I sat in on Peyton Manning’s first press conference at the NFL Draft. He didn’t pee. Otherwise, that would be an amazing coincidence we could share.

149 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:20:44pm

I met Ed Sullivan

150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:21:09pm

re: #149 albusteve

I met Ed Sullivan

What are you? Like 80?

151 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:22:20pm

re: #37 Bloodnok

The problem is that our single datum entitles us to conclude neither that our situation is typical (probable), nor that it is atypical (improbable).

Finally, someone who speaks for ME (I’m still a single datum).

You’ve got to datum before you can stop being single.

152 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:22:38pm

I kicked Kent Hrbek out of my front row seat at the Joe.

153 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:22:44pm

re: #73 Last Mohican

Um … just with respect to that last ‘graph … if you follow the footnote there, I think Frank is pulling your leg a little on that one. It’s what he does.

154 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:22:45pm

re: #150 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

What are you? Like 80?

56 why?…I got his autograph in NYC…I mean this was Mr Ed himself

155 itellu3times  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:22:51pm

I live in the same apartment building where one of the creators of Superman lived for a while.

156 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:23:11pm

These “brushes with fame” are excellent. Please keep them coming. The true ones and the fake ones. And then at the end, we can try to guess which ones are true, and the winner should get 10 karma points, or a zagnut bar, or something.

157 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:23:28pm

re: #154 albusteve

56 why?…I got his autograph in NYC…I mean this was Mr Ed himself

The talking horse!?

158 dentate  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:23:32pm

re: #154 albusteve

…I mean this was Mr Ed himself

A horse is a horse, of course, of course.

159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:23:42pm

re: #149 albusteve

I met Ed Sullivan

I got a new customer a couple weeks ago. Super nice guy, was in a play with… ready?…

Andy Freakin’ Griffith!

The Lost Colony.

Yes. That is right. I met the man, who met Andy Griffith.

160 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:23:55pm

re: #154 albusteve

I got his autograph in NYC…I mean this was Mr Ed himself

How the F* did Mr Ed sign an autograph? I call BS.

161 Vicious Babushka  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:24:07pm

re: #40 pat

Now how did Alouette get deleted? She is usually very civil.

I quoted a deletee.

162 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:24:23pm

re: #152 Mich-again

I kicked Kent Hrbek out of my front row seat at the Joe.

Bill Lambeier refused to talk to me one time at the Palace…I mocked him for it…bring it on white boy!

163 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:24:49pm

re: #160 Mich-again

How the F* did Mr Ed sign an autograph? I call BS.

Horseshoe print.

164 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:24:51pm

re: #152 Mich-again

I kicked Kent Hrbek out of my front row seat at the Joe.

I’m impress. That guy’s toweringly huge.

165 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:24:52pm

re: #159 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Yes. That is right. I met the man, who met Andy Griffith.

Dude!

166 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:25:22pm

re: #157 Killer Tomato

The talking horse!?

practically…ever see that guy?

167 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:25:36pm

re: #165 Last Mohican

Really! Isn’t that awesome!?

168 dentate  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:25:45pm

re: #166 albusteve

practically…ever see that guy?

Wiiilllburrrrr!

169 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:26:40pm

In my biz, (and in my social life) I have come in to contact with dozens, if not hundreds of celebs and politicians and I can assure you that they are all flawed humans, just like the rest of us. Some are nicer than others, some are complete dirt bags.

170 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:26:46pm

re: #160 Mich-again

How the F* did Mr Ed sign an autograph? I call BS.

I did…he gave me tickets to his show…Easter Sunday 1968

171 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:26:51pm

re: #162 albusteve

Bill Lambeier refused to talk to me one time at the Palace…I mocked him for it…bring it on white boy!

Are you Scotty Pippen?

172 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:27:20pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

i dinged you down, and I’ll tell you why. Because that is still the only quote of Reagan’s that I’ve seen on this issue. He made that comment to a group of Evangelicals in Texas, and it could have been some pandering on his part. He was a politician, after all. I need something more from Reagan before I accept that he’s the creationist he’s being portrayed as by you and others.

Ditto. And (in case it’s not obvious) as a whistle stop on the campaign trail. And it’s funny that this one article in Science Magazine (that you have to pay $15 for a copy of … any takers?) seems to be virtually the only reference anyone has to any such comment by Regan. Never a word about it during his eight years as POTUS. Never a single initiative from the White House to follow through on this alleged commitment.

Hey. If anyone has a copy of this article, please share:

Los Alamos—Coming to Terms with the 1980’s
JOHN WALSH
Science 12 September 1980: 1211-1214.

173 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:27:23pm

I met Barry Goldwater when he was in Texas helping Bill Archer get elected.

174 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:27:30pm

Perhaps I should seek an avatar. Michaelangelo. God reaching out and touching a fossil.

That would be cool.

G’night folks!

175 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:27:46pm

re: #164 Sharmuta

I’m impress. That guy’s toweringly huge.

He was in my seat. Dude. You got a ticket?

176 lostlakehiker  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:28:04pm

re: #131 looking closely

Your defintion of “sacrifice” is, apparently, different than mine.

On Iran and the nuke, that’s a good question. They’ll use it to push hegemony across the middle east.

While that would certainly include a push on their theocratic agenda, it would likely also enable more mundane things, like escalation in terrorism both against Israel and globally, perhaps a renewed aggressiveness against neighbors (eg Iran), etc.

While I don’t think Iran would actually launch a pre-emptive nuclear strike against Israel, or directly transfer a weapon or nuclear material to terrorists, I also don’t think you can simply exclude those possibilities out of hand.

There’s no telling. The historical record on Persia suggests that Persia thinks of itself as being sort of eternal. There before all the others, hence, there also after all the others. So maybe they wouldn’t want to chance things working out otherwise.

177 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:28:50pm

The nicest, and most talented men I ever met in my life were a) Louis Armstrong and b) Duke Ellington. They had every reason to be bitter and hateful, and yet they were not. Both were classy and fun people.

178 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:28:51pm

re: #171 Mich-again

Are you Scotty Pippen?

hahahaha…..yes

179 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:29:06pm

I stil wanna’ know what looking closely has to say about this.

[Link: senate.legis.state.la.us…]

180 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:29:55pm

re: #177 rawmuse

OMG. How fortunate.

Some things are really cool to carry around for a lifetime, huh.

That would brighten every day that I lived.

181 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:29:59pm

re: #173 jaunte

I met Barry Goldwater when he was in Texas helping Bill Archer get elected.

doesn’t count unless you burned one with him…

182 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:30:24pm

Add Joe Williams to my list. I have also met Charles Mingus, who had every reason to be bitter and hateful, and in fact, was both of those things.

183 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:30:28pm

re: #113 NJDhockeyfan

I did lines with the drummer of the Box Tops.

I’m back. I just took took a few minutes to listen to Soul Deep.

Love the song. The video gets a little repetitive though.

184 Dianna  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:31:09pm

I nearly got picked up by rock stars in a limo on Market Street in 1991.

I have no clue what band. Probably hair-metal of some sort, though, to go by the terrible skin.

Oh, and I think I may have twisted Eddie Vedder’s arm for being where it was not wanted. But given the amount I’d had to drink and the darkness of the club, I cannot swear to that.

185 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:31:21pm

re: #128 capitalist piglet

Randy Brecker rode in my car once. (I wasn’t driving it.)

I used to be a cook. Some of the people I have cooked meals for:

David Letterman
Hulk Hogan
Sal Marchiano
Nick Price
Denver Broncos recruiter
Mike Lupica
Marvin Hamlish

186 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:31:24pm

Iran’s nuke is only a bargaining chip as long as everyone thinks they don’t have it yet. Once they get it or once everyone thinks they have it they can’t do shit but pretend they don’t have it. Kind of like the Monkey’s Paw.

187 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:31:56pm

re: #175 Mich-again

He was in my seat. Dude. You got a ticket?

the fury of a Detroit sports fan is not to be taken lightly…how many stiches did he need?

188 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:31:59pm

Good, rexatosis, and of course Aquinas had more and better arguments. Personally, I find it reassuring that the Genesis authors conveyed a natural progression of sorts, though I hardly think the purpose is historical or descriptive.

Killgore, if you like terse, read a good translation of the Summa. Don’t trust some prof’s reduction. Use the source, Luke! etc

189 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:32:23pm

One of my best friends is the son of Louis Armstrong’s trombonist. He tells me that he, as a child would wake up and go downstairs and Louis would be asleep on the sofa. How cool a childhood memory is that?

190 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:07pm

re: #185 NJDhockeyfan

I used to be a cook. Some of the people I have cooked meals for:

David Letterman
Hulk Hogan
Sal Marchiano
Nick Price
Denver Broncos recruiter
Mike Lupica
Marvin Hamlish

Sure, but I never see you showing up here with anything for us.
:-p

191 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:08pm

re: #156 Last Mohican

These “brushes with fame” are excellent. Please keep them coming. The true ones and the fake ones. And then at the end, we can try to guess which ones are true, and the winner should get 10 karma points, or a zagnut bar, or something.

Aaaargh! I already revealed mine are true. Can I get the points anyway?

192 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:21pm

Sonny Bono once tried to buy my wife a dress at Tootsie’s.

193 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:45pm

re: #189 rawmuse

One of my best friends is the son of Louis Armstrong’s trombonist. He tells me that he, as a child would wake up and go downstairs and Louis would be asleep on the sofa. How cool a childhood memory is that?

very cool…I journeyed all the way to Congo Square just to see his statue and feel the vibe

194 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:48pm

re: #177 rawmuse

The nicest, and most talented men I ever met in my life were a) Louis Armstrong and b) Duke Ellington. They had every reason to be bitter and hateful, and yet they were not. Both were classy and fun people.

And I met Buddy Rich while I was in high school. What an ass. He had every reason to be interested, surrounded by young aspiring musicians. But no, he was a jerk.

195 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:56pm

re: #190 Killer Tomato

Sure, but I never see you showing up here with anything for us.
:-p

I make my own hot sauce that will blow your head off.

196 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:33:58pm

WOW! The beginning of this thread was like a NASCAR wreck!
Wonder what the record for most deletes to start a thread is? Think I’ll start an .xls sheet.. That way this summer in the middle of a nuclear blog explosion I can go..you think that was bad? Check this out..LOL

197 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:34:10pm

re: #187 albusteve

None of course. He just smiled, got up and left. It was the usher who came by later to tell me who I had kicked out of the seat.

198 reine.de.tout  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:34:15pm

re: #192 jaunte

Sonny Bono once tried to buy my wife a dress at Tootsie’s.

really?
Why?

199 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:34:51pm

re: #192 jaunte

Sonny Bono once tried to buy my wife a dress at Tootsie’s.

Thats kind of weird.

200 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:34:54pm

re: #191 capitalist piglet

Aaaargh! I already revealed mine are true. Can I get the points anyway?

Okay, you can have the karma points, but not the zagnut bar.

201 jaunte  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:35:19pm

re: #198 reine.de.tout

I think he was reading her expression. She had stepped into a store that was about $1000 over her price range. Plus she was beautiful.

202 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:35:32pm

re: #186 Mich-again

Iran’s nuke is only a bargaining chip as long as everyone thinks they don’t have it yet. Once they get it or once everyone thinks they have it they can’t do shit but pretend they don’t have it. Kind of like the Monkey’s Paw.

Sorry, but I don’t agree. The Iranians might well be crazy enough to use a nuke on us or Israel. They might see the annihilation that would result as their short cut to their 72 virgins.

203 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:35:36pm

re: #155 itellu3times

I live in the same apartment building where one of the creators of Superman lived for a while.

I useta’ smoke dope with the members of Nirvana.

I grew up across the street from one of Elvis’ musicians. I’ll never forget that particular car—we spent HOURS smelling the leather and the after-shave.

The younger son is now a major mover in all things country.

204 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:35:53pm

Sam Shepard used to frequent the bars in Charlottesville and stay sloppy drunk. He’s an ass.

205 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:05pm

re: #186 Mich-again

Iran’s nuke is only a bargaining chip as long as everyone thinks they don’t have it yet. Once they get it or once everyone thinks they have it they can’t do shit but pretend they don’t have it. Kind of like the Monkey’s Paw.

Nah… I suspect they want to be part of the “Nuclear Club”. Seeing the infidel nations of China, India, USA, Israel, England, Russia, etc.. being their must transform them into Islamo Rage Boy. They want to be with the big boys. Part of that probably comes from the shame of having such a successful Persian legacy and now being nothing but oil supplying patsies.

206 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:08pm

re: #195 NJDhockeyfan

I make my own hot sauce that will blow your head off.

uh…. I’ll pass on that; thanks.

207 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:33pm

re: #194 OldLineTexan

And I met Buddy Rich while I was in high school. What an ass. He had every reason to be interested, surrounded by young aspiring musicians. But no, he was a jerk.

a monumental ass…fair drummer tho

208 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:44pm

re: #194 OldLineTexan

And I met Buddy Rich while I was in high school. What an ass. He had every reason to be interested, surrounded by young aspiring musicians. But no, he was a jerk.

HEY! Have you heard The Buddy Rich Tapes?

Here you go. My Buddy - A Four Act Passion Play:

[Link: www.carrothers.com…]

209 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:47pm

re: #203 MandyManners

Louis Armstrong used to get baked daily.

Anyone mention that yet?

210 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:36:47pm

re: #129 Last Mohican

That is an excellent point. Reagan was wrong there, and I believe that times have changed enough that a modern presidential candidate wouldn’t get away as easily with a statement like this. Also, the the page that you pulled the quote from is full of misleading junk. None of which diminishes the fact that you make an excellent point.


With respect to so-called “intelligent design”, there are two issues, I think, that are relevant with respect to this blog:

One of them is simple, namely should ID be taught in the science classroom? This one brings up the whole effort by pro-ID groups to “sneak” ID discussions into the classroom via legal maneuvering.

The next issue is, to what extent is a belief in ID a political liability for those running for (or holding) political office? This one ties to Bobby Jindal, LA governor, and the last thread.

I don’t know the answer to this question, but again, I’m not entirely convinced that its as much of a deal-breaker as one might think. (I’m saying this as someone who is a STRONG opponent of teaching ID in the science classroom).

Apparently only 40% of the electorate claims to believe in the theory of evolution, for example. If the article I linked to is to be believed (and I see no reason why not to), Carter, Reagan, and GW Bush, apparently also were more or less open creationists, with Reagan in particular actually supporting something along the lines of these Creationist bills before being elected POTUS.

It does give one food for thought, I think.

Also, even though I personally don’t know the answer, that doesn’t mean the answer isn’t “knowable”. Polling and focus groups could probably determine both how the electorate feels about this issue, as well as what position(s) are most palatable.

211 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:19pm

re: #194 OldLineTexan

And I met Buddy Rich while I was in high school. What an ass. He had every reason to be interested, surrounded by young aspiring musicians. But no, he was a jerk.

I worked for Buddy. I loved him and hated him too. I can be seen on YouTube playing with him back in the late ’70s, but I shall not reveal which vids. Buddy was a classic tough guy, insecure because of his lack of a formal education. I went on the road with him, like many acts, just to say that I had done it. In many ways it was the hardest time of my life, and the best.

212 Basho  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:27pm

re: #205 Basho

Hell, I forgot Pakistan. They’re a third world country who get a lot of respect from the US and their main foe India.

213 Macker  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:37pm

re: #18 ziggyelman

Um…isn’t that what the “Report” button is for?

214 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:54pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Louis Armstrong used to get baked daily.

Anyone mention that yet?

me too…me and Louis had alot in common

215 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:55pm

As a child I met all 9 classic members of Sha Na Na multiple times. Some called the house. (This one, I fear, is all too real -my father was a peculiar man)

216 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:37:56pm

re: #206 Killer Tomato

uh…. I’ll pass on that; thanks.

It’s very good. I’m in the process of starting a business around that sauce. Look for it in stores one day.

217 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:38:17pm

re: #200 Last Mohican

Okay, you can have the karma points, but not the zagnut bar.

Awesome!

218 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:38:27pm

re: #214 albusteve

me too…me and Louis had alot in common

‘Ere!

//

219 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:38:50pm

re: #215 Bloodnok

As a child I met all 9 classic members of Sha Na Na multiple times. Some called the house. (This one, I fear, is all too real -my father was a peculiar man)

did you need therapy afterwords?

220 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:39:25pm

re: #215 Bloodnok

As a child I met all 9 classic members of Sha Na Na multiple times. Some called the house. (This one, I fear, is all too real -my father was a peculiar man)

I saw Bowser doing some shtick on the boardwalk at Atlantic City once.

221 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:39:32pm

I had the pleasure of hanging out with John Jorgenson once, and meeting a good number of Nashville session cats at a party for Scotty Moore. Nice fellas all.

222 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:39:45pm

re: #211 rawmuse

I worked for Buddy. I loved him and hated him too. I can be seen on YouTube playing with him back in the late ’70s, but I shall not reveal which vids. Buddy was a classic tough guy, insecure because of his lack of a formal education. I went on the road with him, like many acts, just to say that I had done it. In many ways it was the hardest time of my life, and the best.

In contrast, although I did NOT meet Maynard Ferguson, I heard him lecture his band one night after a set. Apparently had a bunch of newbs, and was critiquing the entire show for their edification. And I’d bet they learned a lot.

223 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:40:22pm

re: #220 NJDhockeyfan

I saw Bowser doing some shtick on the boardwalk at Atlantic City once.

I just saw him last night, hawking some oldies compilation on an infommercial. Brought back some memories.

224 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:40:23pm

re: #211 rawmuse

Extremely interesting, BTW.

225 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:40:35pm

re: #211 rawmuse

I used to know someone that met him when he was 8. This guy was a bass player. Had an autographed photo of Rich. Funny, that description sort of reminds me of what I heard about Chuck Yeager. Anywho, Bob Wills was supposed to be a hard ass as well.

226 Dark_Falcon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:40:38pm

re: #210 looking closely

Your points are well made. I think that creationism will alienate moderate voters whose votes we need to win, but it is a point we can debate.

227 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:41:04pm

I met Duke Ellington twice…the second time I sat at a little table just next to him while he performed with his band…Mr T Bones…Kalamazoo MI

228 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:41:46pm

re: #216 NJDhockeyfan

It’s very good. I’m in the process of starting a business around that sauce. Look for it in stores one day.

I’m sure it is. Keep us posted - I’ll point it out to friends who’d enjoy it.

229 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:41:48pm

re: #219 albusteve

did you need therapy afterwords?

You haven’t lived until you’ve seen Sha Na Na supporting Dr. Hook.

230 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:41:53pm

Someone close to me played with Ray Charles, who was also cranky. He would yell at players for not playing parts that weren’t in the chart, and you couldn’t convince him they weren’t there.

231 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:05pm

Never met any musician. I did flip the bird at Ted Nugent in Philly back in 1978 or so.

232 Lynn B.  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:05pm

re: #109 looking closely

Also, before you and faraway and anyone else break an arm congratulating themselves on finding a “creationist” quote from Reagan, please remember that that quote, even if it’s accurate, was made almost 30 years ago, when I suspect almost all of us here who were old enough to grasp the issue would have laughed ourselves sick over the idea that America might be courting a sequel to the Scopes trial. Before Charles drew my attention to this issue, I considered it a dead letter, a relic of a benighted past that we had been fortunate to leave behind us.

If only …

233 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:20pm

So Ted, if you’re reading this! That was me.

234 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:21pm

re: #211 rawmuse

I worked for Buddy. I loved him and hated him too. I can be seen on YouTube playing with him back in the late ’70s, but I shall not reveal which vids. Buddy was a classic tough guy, insecure because of his lack of a formal education. I went on the road with him, like many acts, just to say that I had done it. In many ways it was the hardest time of my life, and the best.

awsome…really

235 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:43pm

re: #202 Dark_Falcon

Sorry, but I don’t agree. The Iranians might well be crazy enough to use a nuke on us or Israel. They might see the annihilation that would result as their short cut to their 72 virgins.

I disagree. The Mullahs are more kleptocrats than they are theocrats. They aint dying for Allah. They could give a f* about Allah. They only do what they do for their own sorry asses.

236 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:42:53pm

re: #229 Bloodnok

You haven’t lived until you’ve seen been dragged to Sha Na Na supporting Dr. Hook.

fixed

237 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:43:05pm

re: #231 Gus 802

Never met any musician. I did flip the bird at Ted Nugent in Philly back in 1978 or so.

LOL, I’m still waiting for that Lizard that was supposed to kick Bono in the nuts.

238 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:43:13pm

Louis was also an adherent of laxatives, specifically one called “Swiss Criss”. He used to send out Christmas cards with a pic of him on the toilet, holding a box with the caption “Leave it all behind you”. He also gave a box of Swiss Criss to the Queen of England during his tour there.

I have such a signed card from him.

Louis was so popular that crowds of people would be in his dressing room. To make them go away, he would walk around the room, naked.

239 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:43:24pm

re: #229 Bloodnok

You haven’t lived until you’ve seen Sha Na Na supporting Dr. Hook.

some things are better left undone…you know?

240 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:44:08pm

re: #237 OldLineTexan

LOL, I’m still waiting for that Lizard that was supposed to kick Bono in the nuts.

Somehow I just heard Eric Cartman’s voice.

241 swamprat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:44:39pm

KFC with Morrison
Alfalfa shoved my mother into a drainage ditch (it had water in it)

242 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:44:54pm

re: #238 rawmuse

Louis was also an adherent of laxatives, specifically one called “Swiss Criss”. He used to send out Christmas cards with a pic of him on the toilet, holding a box with the caption “Leave it all behind you”. He also gave a box of Swiss Criss to the Queen of England during his tour there.

I have such a signed card from him.

Louis was so popular that crowds of people would be in his dressing room. To make them go away, he would walk around the room, naked.

a classic tale amigo…the card is a prize

243 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:45:00pm

I’ve been drunk with Carl Lee (Vikings).

244 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:45:03pm

re: #240 Gus 802

Somehow I just heard Eric Cartman’s voice.

I almost wrote “sqwar in da nutz”, but then I didn’t.

/

245 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:45:21pm

Clark Terry took our college class to school. He was nice about it. Wynton Marsalis was much less so.

246 Killer Tomato  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:45:57pm

I still can’t get over the fact that I ‘know’ someone who has Mr. Ed’s autograph.
And with that, I’m outta here.
‘night, all!

247 MandyManners  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:07pm

re: #209 Gus 802

Louis Armstrong used to get baked daily.

Anyone mention that yet?

HUH?

Youtube Video
248 lobo91  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:23pm

The first time I met then-Governor Gary Johnson of NM was at the Albuquerque Marriott, election night of 1998. I was there for the state GOP election party, and stopped to use the men’s room on my way in. As I was finishing up, I heard a commotion behind me, and next thing I knew, the governor was standing at the next urinal.

I said hello, and thought briefly about offering my hand, but (fortunately) thought better of it a millisecond later.

Anyway, a friend of mine who was on his staff properly introduced us later during the party, and we spent a few minutes watching the returns on TV and chatting over a beer.

249 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:31pm

Fine, it’s a contest. I once got run off the effin’ road to Bush Intercontinental by a motorcade, then shoved out of the way at the terminal by a huge posse led by a huge man … Jesse Jackson!

250 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:38pm

I also worked with Ray Charles, but not for any extended period of time. He was also a tough guy, but I loved him anyway, and respected the hell out of him. He could make me weep. And play the slowest frikkin’ tempos you ever heard, I mean blues where the quarter note is about 40 bpm. Try it sometime.

251 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:42pm

I’ve got another good one I just remembered. I got a letter from Stanley Clarke once, when I was basically a kid. In fact, I think Charles was probably playing with him at the time.

He had cool stationery.

252 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:53pm

rawmuse, that is exalted company. Outstanding!

253 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:46:53pm

re: #246 Killer Tomato

I still can’t get over the fact that I ‘know’ someone who has Mr. Ed’s autograph.
And with that, I’m outta here.
‘night, all!

I knew someone who had Cassius Clay’s autograph.

254 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:47:16pm

re: #241 swamprat

KFC with Morrison
Alfalfa shoved my mother into a drainage ditch (it had water in it)

She should have known better than get within shoving distance of someone who famously belonged to an organization called the He-Man Woman Haters Club.

/

255 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:47:22pm

re: #249 OldLineTexan

Fine, it’s a contest. I once got run off the effin’ road to Bush Intercontinental by a motorcade, then shoved out of the way at the terminal by a huge posse led by a huge man … Jesse Jackson!

Oh! I almost ran over Jerry Brown. Seriously. Pacific Heights…

256 wee fury  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:47:36pm

I met Al Hirt and his band in a bar in New Orleans. They bought me drinks and boiled peanuts.

257 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:47:59pm

re: #238 rawmuse

Louis was also an adherent of laxatives, specifically one called “Swiss Criss”. He used to send out Christmas cards with a pic of him on the toilet, holding a box with the caption “Leave it all behind you”. He also gave a box of Swiss Criss to the Queen of England during his tour there.

I have such a signed card from him.

Louis was so popular that crowds of people would be in his dressing room. To make them go away, he would walk around the room, naked.

If that’s true (and I’m guessing it is), it’s an incredible story.

If it’s not, it’s still an incredible story.

258 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:48:08pm

re: #256 wee fury

I met Al Hirt and his band in a bar in New Orleans. They bought me drinks and boiled peanuts.

Nice.

259 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:48:21pm

I wish I could have hung out with Zappa. I know people who did, and said he was a real bitter guy. Too bad, loved his music.

260 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:48:26pm

re: #249 OldLineTexan

Fine, it’s a contest. I once got run off the effin’ road to Bush Intercontinental by a motorcade, then shoved out of the way at the terminal by a huge posse led by a huge man … Jesse Jackson!

Was his posse NOI members?

261 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:48:39pm

re: #250 rawmuse

Subdivide! lol

And I bet it was swingin, too

262 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:05pm

Pat Metheny is great, but I’m not leaving this thread until we’re done with the “brushes with fame.”

263 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:14pm

re: #250 rawmuse

I also worked with Ray Charles, but not for any extended period of time. He was also a tough guy, but I loved him anyway, and respected the hell out of him. He could make me weep. And play the slowest frikkin’ tempos you ever heard, I mean blues where the quarter note is about 40 bpm. Try it sometime.

This is pretty weird. You probably know some guys I know…though I’m not sure about the timeline. They may have come down that pike a little bit later than you, from what you’ve said.

Small world.

264 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:18pm

re: #243 NJDhockeyfan

I’ve been drunk with Carl Lee (Vikings).

I went to a funeral with Ara Parsegihian once…just a hell of a guy…told all kinds of Notre Dame stories

265 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:23pm

re: #257 Last Mohican

If that’s true (and I’m guessing it is), it’s an incredible story.

If it’s not, it’s still an incredible story.

You can read about it in one of his many biographies. I am not making that up.

266 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:26pm

re: #260 NJDhockeyfan

Was his posse NOI members?

If so, they were in disguise.

There were a BUNCH of them, swarming through the airport.

Did I mention that Jesse is a BIG man?

267 abolitionist  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:30pm

Found nearby the Digging a Little Deeper link:
Too cute to be legally allowable - video, Otters holding hands…
/hate mail in 99, 98, …

268 dentate  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:49:43pm

For any aviation buffs here, I met Dick Rutan once, the brother of SpaceShip One designer Burt, and a famous pilot in his own right—flew Voyager nonstop around the world in 1986. My friend and I flew out to Mojave “spaceport” to look at what was being built there and asked some guy working on his car where we could see good stuff. He introduced himself as “Dick,” interrupted what he was doing and showed us around for a good half hour. It slowly dawned on me who I was talking to; my buddy didn’t realize it until I told him after. My experience is that the really great ones are totally humble and unassuming.

269 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:50:12pm

re: #262 Last Mohican

Pat Metheny is great, but I’m not leaving this thread until we’re done with the “brushes with fame.”

Yeah. OK, was riding my bike home once (Nob Hill) and saw George Schultz and said “Hi George!” He looked up and said hi back. He was heading towards the Pacific Club.

270 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:50:41pm

Rawmuse, got any Miles stories?

271 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:51:45pm

I was at a bar with a friend of mine listening to Lester Chambers when 5 or 6 guys sat at the table next to us. We talked with them for about an hour before we found out they were the members of New Riders of the Purple Sage.

272 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:52:05pm

re: #270 godfrey

Rawmuse, got any Miles stories?

I knew a guy that played electric bass with him, in his last touring band before his death. Miles was more reclusive from what I heard.

273 Quodlibetarian  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:52:06pm

No offence to the author of the piece linked, but he doesn’t really understand Aquinas if he’s putting him with proponents of ID. Check out this piece by Michael Tkacz of Gonzaga U., which shows the shortcomings of both ID and accounts that insist Darwinism necessarily = atheism:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811fea4.asp

274 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:52:39pm

re: #270 godfrey

Rawmuse, got any Miles stories?

Ha! I was just going to ask that.

P.S. Any Miles story must be read aloud with your vocal folds squeezed together like an empty toothpaste tube.

275 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:53:08pm

re: #262 Last Mohican

Pat Metheny is great, but I’m not leaving this thread until we’re done with the “brushes with fame.”

albusteve started the whole thing talking about having breakfast with Cher.

276 theheat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:53:16pm

re: #177 rawmuse

One of my favorite rants, even if it’s an urban legend, is Pat Metheny talking about Kenny G overdubbing Louis Armstrong. I probably read it once a year or so, just because it makes me laugh every time I do.

277 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:53:33pm

re: #275 Mich-again

albusteve started the whole thing talking about having breakfast with Cher.

Yeah, what a name-dropper.

/

278 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:53:36pm

re: #272 rawmuse

I knew a guy that played electric bass with him, in his last touring band before his death. Miles was more reclusive from what I heard.

I may have seen that band, actually.

279 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:53:55pm

re: #262 Last Mohican

Pat Metheny is great, but I’m not leaving this thread until we’re done with the “brushes with fame.”

could go on for a while…my mom played with the Kalamazoo Symphony…I met all kind of stars back stage…my all time favorite was Chet Atkins…Itzy Perlman was another

280 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:54:06pm

re: #271 NJDhockeyfan

I was at a bar with a friend of mine listening to Lester Chambers when 5 or 6 guys sat at the table next to us. We talked with them for about an hour before we found out they were the members of New Riders of the Purple Sage.

Panama Red! Marty Balin? Might have seen a few of them play separately. Saw them play in Englishtown, NJ

281 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:54:17pm

Another nice man, great musician, and a wonderful human being was Louis Bellson, who just passed. I am going to a memorial for him on Saturday. I played with Mr. Bellson about 50 times. That guy could really play.

282 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:54:45pm

If any of you know Cajun music, I once walked in on Marc Savoy and asked him if an old Kay bass was for sale, not knowing it was the one used for sessions there since forever. The locals treated him like the Pope.

283 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:04pm

re: #279 albusteve

could go on for a while…my mom played with the Kalamazoo Symphony…I met all kind of stars back stage…my all time favorite was Chet Atkins…Itzy Perlman was another

Chet Atkins performed with the Kalamazoo Symphony? That must have been an interesting show.

284 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:10pm

I did catch Tony Williams who played with Miles. Cripes, was I impressed.

285 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:23pm

re: #275 Mich-again

albusteve started the whole thing talking about having breakfast with Cher.

I didn’t mean it….it just happened

286 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:34pm

re: #264 albusteve

I went to a funeral with Ara Parsegihian once…just a hell of a guy…told all kinds of Notre Dame stories

Ted Marchibroda’s niece has a dentist office down the street from me.

287 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:41pm

re: #140 Sharmuta

i dinged you down, and I’ll tell you why. Because that is still the only quote of Reagan’s that I’ve seen on this issue. He made that comment to a group of Evangelicals in Texas, and it could have been some pandering on his part. He was a politician, after all. I need something more from Reagan before I accept that he’s the creationist he’s being portrayed as by you and others.


Its not my portrayal…I didn’t quote him or write that article. I’m also not trying to “bash” Reagan, either.

Further, I don’t presume to know what Reagan actually believed in his heart, but would you accept that its *possible* that he let his guard down in front of a friendly audience?

The point is, that empirically, its not just clear to me that support for so-called “intelligent design” is as big a political “loser” as one might think. That’s all.

Maybe things ARE different with respect to this issue today…I honestly don’t know. What I will say, though, is that the Creationist arguments themselves haven’t changed in 30+ years.

288 J6  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:44pm

Read it. It’s dismissive and minimalizes the actual statements to a point necessary to defeat them. The last analogy would probably be the clearest example of that.

289 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:55:50pm

Two points:

1) While (according to the poll) only 40% of the US populace accepts evolutionary theory, only 25% believes in creationism; the other 35% either said they did not know or otherwise expressed no opinion. This, of course, means that the majority of those who DID express an opinion accepted evolutionary theory.

2) I remember another article that expressed something like on of the posted article’s arguments; it is here (and I will quote the relevant section:

Where Are They?
Why I hope the search for extraterrestrial life finds nothing.
By Nick Bostrom
[Link: www.technologyreview.com…]
(free registration required)

Now, it might be thought an amazing coincidence if Earth were the only planet in the galaxy on which intelligent life evolved. If it happened here, the one planet we have studied closely, surely one would expect it to have happened on a lot of other planets in the galaxy—planets we have not yet had the chance to examine. This objection, however, rests on a fallacy: it overlooks what is known as an “observation selection effect.” Whether intelligent life is common or rare, every observer is guaranteed to originate from a place where intelligent life did, in fact, arise. Since only the successes give rise to observers who can wonder about their existence, it would be a mistake to regard our planet as a randomly selected sample from all planets. (It would be closer to the mark to regard our planet as a random sample from the subset of planets that did engender intelligent life, this being a crude formulation of one of the saner ideas extractable from the motley ore referred to as the “anthropic principle.”)

Since this point confuses many, it is worth expanding on it slightly. Consider two different hypotheses. One says that the evolution of intelligent life is a fairly straightforward process that happens on a significant fraction of all suitable planets. The other hypothesis says that the evolution of intelligent life is extremely complicated and happens perhaps on only one out of a million billion planets. To evaluate their plausibility in light of your evidence, you must ask yourself, “What do these hypotheses predict I should observe?” If you think about it, both hypotheses clearly predict that you should observe that your civilization originated in places where intelligent life evolved. All observers will share that observation, whether the evolution of intelligent life happened on a large or a small fraction of all planets. An observation-selection effect guarantees that whatever planet we call “ours” was a success story. And as long as the total number of planets in the universe is large enough to compensate for the low proba­bility of any given one of them giving rise to intelligent life, it is not a surprise that a few success stories exist.

290 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:56:28pm

Fire in the hole!

291 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:56:28pm

re: #249 OldLineTexan

Fine, it’s a contest.

Ha! I was here in the thread Robert Spencer the LGF poster went off the deep end supporting Eurofascists. I kind of pissed him off right before the meltdown.

292 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:56:50pm

re: #275 Mich-again

albusteve started the whole thing talking about having breakfast with Cher.

He didn’t mention how he ended up there … hmmmm … was she wearin’ yer shirt there, Steve?

/

293 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:57:38pm

re: #292 OldLineTexan

He didn’t mention how he ended up there … hmmmm … was she wearin’ yer shirt there, Steve?

/

Who knew albusteve did a Shirt for Shirt with Cher?

294 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:57:42pm

re: #292 OldLineTexan

He didn’t mention how he ended up there … hmmmm … was she wearin’ yer shirt there, Steve?

/

Maybe it was a Cher impersonator?

Hmmmm…

////

295 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:58:01pm

re: #283 Last Mohican

Chet Atkins performed with the Kalamazoo Symphony? That must have been an interesting show.

every season they brought in bigtime stars….Chet was huge and could do all kinds of contemporary pop and semi classic stuff…the guy was a genius…we chatted for a bit and he showed me his big ass blond Gretch…he wore a tux of course

296 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:58:11pm

re: #282 godfrey

If any of you know Cajun music, I once walked in on Marc Savoy and asked him if an old Kay bass was for sale, not knowing it was the one used for sessions there since forever. The locals treated him like the Pope.

I have a VERY OLD promo picture of my dad with a Kay guitar. I was always like, “Where’d he get that thing?” (He appeared with Louis Armstrong also - though not in his band, as I understand it - and a bunch of other famous musicians/entertainers.)

297 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:58:12pm

re: #285 albusteve

I didn’t mean it….it just happened

WELL YOU SHOULD HAVE THOUGHT OF THAT BEFORE YOU WENT AND HAD BREAKFAST WITH CHER IN ASPEN, SHOULDN’T YOU?

298 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:58:28pm

re: #289 Salamantis

The other thing we have to keep in mind is that the Earth is a place that was uninhabitable to any life for billions of years, it would have sterilized any life form out of existence. And so shall it be once again, in the future. We simply are in a narrow window of time in which life flourishes.

299 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:58:33pm

re: #286 NJDhockeyfan

Ted Marchibroda’s niece has a dentist office down the street from me.

what position did she play?

300 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:59:22pm

re: #299 albusteve

what position did she play?

Tight end?

301 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:59:42pm

re: #293 Mich-again

Who knew albusteve did a Shirt for Shirt with Cher?

He is now the second famousest person I know, right after rawmuse.

302 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:59:50pm

A friend of mine said Zappa was bitter, too. I should like his music, but it never moves me.

303 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 8:59:55pm

re: #249 OldLineTexan

Fine, it’s a contest. I once got run off the effin’ road to Bush Intercontinental by a motorcade, then shoved out of the way at the terminal by a huge posse led by a huge man … Jesse Jackson!

I haven’t revealed anything much that I could, ‘cause I just don’t feel comfortable talking about it…so I’ll start making things up now.

I once had a snocone with Jimmy Durante.

304 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:00:02pm

re: #293 Mich-again

Who knew albusteve did a Shirt for Shirt with Cher?

we Chered eggs

305 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:00:07pm

For all the people I have met, I have the most respect for military heroes. I have met a few Medal of Honor recipients. Those men were tops in my book, and still are.

306 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:00:14pm

re: #300 NJDhockeyfan

Tight end?

Open Wide Receiver

307 Sharmuta  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:00:56pm

re: #287 looking closely

Its not my portrayal…I didn’t quote him or write that article. I’m also not trying to “bash” Reagan, either.

Further, I don’t presume to know what Reagan actually believed in his heart, but would you accept that its *possible* that he let his guard down in front of a friendly audience?

It’s just as likely he was pandering to that particular audience. I likewise don’t know what he personally thought. My point was that so far it’s the only quote to suggest he had a position on the matter. I don’t think it’s enough to form any sort of definitive portrayal of the man as a creationist without further corroborating evidence.

308 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:00:59pm

re: #211 rawmuse

Heh …

My partial list.

Gov. Earl Warren and Nina Oakland CA 1949/50

V.P. Richard Nixon - 8th Winter Olympics - Squaw Valley 1960

Neil Armstrong - Bangkok 1969

Gen. Abrams - Saigon 1968

Chief Instructor NASA Shuttle Simulator - 90’s (I dated his sister-in-law)

One of my clients, a machinist, made the rear axels for the lunar rovers.

And Rawmuse at the NorCal Lizard meet
in SF. ;-)

309 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:07pm

re: #294 Gus 802

Maybe it was a Cher impersonator?

Thanks for that image. Blech.

310 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:17pm

I cant keep up and worse I just spilled my drink!….damn you all to hell!

311 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:20pm

re: #276 theheat

One of my favorite rants, even if it’s an urban legend, is Pat Metheny talking about Kenny G overdubbing Louis Armstrong. I probably read it once a year or so, just because it makes me laugh every time I do.

Wow…
That was perhaps the most brutal criticism (of anything) I’ve ever read in my life.
And hilarious to boot.

312 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:27pm

re: #275 Mich-again

albusteve started the whole thing talking about having breakfast with Cher.

I had lunch with Fat Bastard Vegetarian.

313 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:34pm

re: #303 capitalist piglet

I haven’t revealed anything much that I could, ‘cause I just don’t feel comfortable talking about it…so I’ll start making things up now.

I once had a snocone with Jimmy Durante.

I was once in a revolving door with Morey Amsterdam.

314 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:36pm

re: #284 Gus 802

I did catch Tony Williams who played with Miles. Cripes, was I impressed.

He was awesome.

315 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:49pm

I once sat next to pro NFL quarterback Kenny Stabler on a 3 hour flight. We only introduced ourselves with first names. We drank several complimentary miniatures, while discussing politics, religion, sex, current events…everything but religion - and I made no attempt to go there.

At the conclusion of the flight, as we were getting up to debark, he turned to me and asked me, “You DO know who I am, don’t you?” “Sure, Mr. Stabler”, I replied, “but I figured you were tired as hell of talking nothing but football all the time.”

He gave me a broad smile, shook my hand, said “Thank you”, and walked away.

316 HoosierHoops  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:51pm

re: #299 albusteve

what position did she play?

My dad took me to hear Jesse Owens speak when I was a kid..Got his autograph..
That man is a hero

317 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:01:54pm

re: #303 capitalist piglet

I haven’t revealed anything much that I could, ‘cause I just don’t feel comfortable talking about it…so I’ll start making things up now.

I’ve got a few of my own, but I can’t think of one that wouldn’t risk revealing my identity or compromising patient confidentiality.

318 godfrey  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:02:11pm

I’ll check out Pat and head to bed. Night, lizards.

319 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:02:24pm

I think George Carlin had a similar personality to Zappa, from what I can gather. Both were very cynical, somewhat disappointed in humanity, and had a very jaundiced view of the world, which helped Carlin’s act.

321 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:02:59pm

re: #316 HoosierHoops

My dad took me to hear Jesse Owens speak when I was a kid..Got his autograph..
That man is a hero

very nice indeed…very rare I’d say

322 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:03:10pm

re: #308 Bobibutu

Heh …

My partial list.

Gov. Earl Warren and Nina Oakland CA 1949/50

V.P. Richard Nixon - 8th Winter Olympics - Squaw Valley 1960

Neil Armstrong - Bangkok 1969

Gen. Abrams - Saigon 1968

Chief Instructor NASA Shuttle Simulator - 90’s (I dated his sister-in-law)

One of my clients, a machinist, made the rear axels for the lunar rovers.

And Rawmuse at the NorCal Lizard meet
in SF. ;-)


That’s a cool list. I have a pretty good one like that: My brother, who has been deceased for many years, was an engineer who worked on the early stages of the Tomahawk Cruise Missile.

323 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:03:24pm

re: #308 Bobibutu

Aww, shucks (blushing).

324 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:03:59pm

re: #315 Salamantis

I once sat next to pro NFL quarterback Kenny Stabler on a 3 hour flight. We only introduced ourselves with first names. We drank several complimentary miniatures, while discussing politics, religion, sex, current events…everything but religion - and I made no attempt to go there.

At the conclusion of the flight, as we were getting up to debark, he turned to me and asked me, “You DO know who I am, don’t you?” “Sure, Mr. Stabler”, I replied, “but I figured you were tired as hell of talking nothing but football all the time.”

He gave me a broad smile, shook my hand, said “Thank you”, and walked away.

PIMF: I meant everything but FOOTBALL.

325 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:04:33pm

re: #313 Bloodnok

I was once in a revolving door with Morey Amsterdam.

I hope that one is true. That would be so hip.

326 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:04:56pm

re: #313 Bloodnok

I was once in a revolving door with Morey Amsterdam.

right around the time I met Ed Sullivan I was in a shoe store when in walked Soupy Sales…the place was empty and he sat down right next to me and started to chat…yes it did happen just like that

327 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:05:30pm

re: #308 Bobibutu

OK, I met Eugene Kranz in an elevator in Bldg 1 at JSC right after a started work at Lockheed in 1985. The secretary I was assisting was one of his daughter’s school friends and introduced us.

328 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:05:49pm

There is a vid on Youtube of Dizzy with a big band. Dizzy is complaining about the pitiful state of his dressing room and specifically, his bathroom. He went a jovial tirade, it was both embarrassing and funny. I can be seen directly behind him, as a young man.

329 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:06:25pm

re: #326 albusteve

right around the time I met Ed Sullivan I was in a shoe store when in walked Soupy Sales…the place was empty and he sat down right next to me and started to chat…yes it did happen just like that

Where at?

330 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:06:26pm

re: #303 capitalist piglet

I haven’t revealed anything much that I could, ‘cause I just don’t feel comfortable talking about it…so I’ll start making things up now.

I once had a snocone with Jimmy Durante.

I met his brother at a Chicago nursing home.

331 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:06:34pm

re: #315 Salamantis

I once sat next to pro NFL quarterback Kenny Stabler on a 3 hour flight.

That was a great story. Kenny Stabler came from Foley Alabama, a small town in Baldwin County where my grandparents lived and my family spent 2 weeks every summer on vacation while I was kid growing up. Gramps had acres and acres of pecan trees.

332 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:08:20pm

re: #315 Salamantis

I once sat next to pro NFL quarterback Kenny Stabler on a 3 hour flight. We only introduced ourselves with first names. We drank several complimentary miniatures, while discussing politics, religion, sex, current events…everything but religion - and I made no attempt to go there.

At the conclusion of the flight, as we were getting up to debark, he turned to me and asked me, “You DO know who I am, don’t you?” “Sure, Mr. Stabler”, I replied, “but I figured you were tired as hell of talking nothing but football all the time.”

He gave me a broad smile, shook my hand, said “Thank you”, and walked away.

Cool!

333 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:08:23pm

re: #289 Salamantis

Two points:

1) While (according to the poll) only 40% of the US populace accepts evolutionary theory, only 25% believes in creationism; the other 35% either said they did not know or otherwise expressed no opinion. This, of course, means that the majority of those who DID express an opinion accepted evolutionary theory.


Assuming these numbers are right, we’re still left with around 60% for whom Creationism probably isn’t a “pushbutton” issue.

Again, if true, being Devil’s advocate that makes Creationism less divisive than say, abortion or gay marriage.

334 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:08:30pm

re: #331 Mich-again

I was a big Kenny Stabler fan at one point in my life. Never met him.

335 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:08:55pm

re: #322 capitalist piglet

That’s a cool list. I have a pretty good one like that: My brother, who has been deceased for many years, was an engineer who worked on the early stages of the Tomahawk Cruise Missile.

Blessing on your bro.

Thx - you sparked a memory - My best boyhood friend - another engineer - killed by a drunk driver in Boston where he was attending MIT - was on the the Polaris A3 nose cone design team when not building A-bombs for Sandia and LRL back when we were testing like crazy (Kennedy admin).

336 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:09:03pm

re: #334 Last Mohican

I was a big Kenny Stabler fan at one point in my life. Never met him.

I ate at his chicken joint a couple of times.

;)

337 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:09:15pm

re: #329 Gus 802

Where at?

right near Ed’s theater…either on Broadway or 42nd…

338 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:09:40pm

re: #311 looking closely

Wow…
That was perhaps the most brutal criticism (of anything) I’ve ever read in my life.
And hilarious to boot.

Rant? Did someone say rant?

This is my favorite rant.

339 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:10:04pm

Hmm, I guess being around Eddy Debartolo’s daughter for a night out doesn’t count for much. Some double date. I was with my girlfriend.

340 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:10:52pm

re: #327 OldLineTexan

OK, I met Eugene Kranz in an elevator in Bldg 1 at JSC right after a started work at Lockheed in 1985. The secretary I was assisting was one of his daughter’s school friends and introduced us.

Man could we use a few like him just now!

341 Mich-again  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:11:03pm

re: #336 OldLineTexan

I ate at his chicken joint a couple of times.

Are you confusing Kenny Rogers Chicken with Kenny Stabler Chicken?

342 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:11:38pm

athletes are hard if you don’t live in a big city….a primo thing for me was getting a handshake from Ted Williams at Tiger Stadium…I was dumbstruck

343 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:11:43pm

re: #327 OldLineTexan

OK, I met Eugene Kranz in an elevator in Bldg 1 at JSC right after a started work at Lockheed in 1985. The secretary I was assisting was one of his daughter’s school friends and introduced us.

Now that’s something. I tell you he is one of the greats of the old school.

344 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:12:10pm

re: #341 Mich-again

Are you confusing Kenny Rogers Chicken with Kenny Stabler Chicken?

Maybe … don’t they get killed on every South Park episode?

/

345 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:12:23pm

I saw Franco Harris on the telephone at the Pittsburgh airport when I was on my way to basic training in 1980.

346 NJDhockeyfan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:13:04pm

re: #342 albusteve

athletes are hard if you don’t live in a big city….a primo thing for me was getting a handshake from Ted Williams at Tiger Stadium…I was dumbstruck

Dude! Awesome!

347 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:13:54pm

I saw Lon Chaney JUNIOR walking with the Queen …

/

348 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:14:15pm

You guys probably don’t remember this guy, but I once sang somewhere where NFL corner Dave Brown (Steelers, Packers, Seahawks coaching staff) was speaking. He knew who I was and came to tell me it was good to see me but I didn’t recognize him. I asked him a stupid question (I mean, really stupid, like, “What do you do around here?”), and another person who was there said, “Piglet, this is Dave Brown.”

Still not catching on, I said something else that was completely stupid, then after he got up to speak and was introduced, I realized how badly I had stepped in it.

We saw each other several times after that, and he was always so gracious and friendly, and he and his wife sent me a Christmas card.

Sometimes, I am such a dumb___.

349 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:14:22pm

re: #325 capitalist piglet

I hope that one is true. That would be so hip.

It’s not. But my mother did almost cause Marina Oswald to walk out on a Harvard JFK Assassination symposium. (My parents are ANYTHING but scholars, but they somehow got into an expert’s conference on JFK’s assassination where Marina Oswald was the speaker. My mother asked Marina to sign the program and Marina asked what books my father had written. “Oh no” said my mother “he’s just a buff”. “A Buff!?” said Marina. Several minutes of angry conversation with her assistant in Russian followed. my mother slunk away. When it was time for Marina to give the guest of honor speech she went to the microphone and said she was looking for the woman whose husband was a “buff” and started scanning the audience. My mother left the hall.

Still we got a cool autograph. On the program that says “Who Killed JFK?” written underneath it says “Not LHO for sure -Marina Oswald”.

350 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:14:31pm

Wait, I’ve got one that I can reveal…

I once went to a movie with Duane Allman’s daughter, Galadrielle Allman.

351 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:14:58pm

I once shared a dressing room with John Tesh. That guy knew how to write a contract. On his rider, buried deep in the thing was a clause that said he had to have a new, in the box, World Wide Wrestling Action Figure, on his dressing room counter top, as he arrived to the venue. If he got there, and it was not there, he knew that the producer had not read the whole rider. An attorney would call that a compliance clause, I guess.

352 albusteve  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:15:47pm

re: #346 NJDhockeyfan

Dude! Awesome!

it was…earlier by a few years Micky Mantle doffed his cap and waved to me from center field at Comisky Park….there are lizards here that would put that minor stuff to shame….but it was huge for me as a kid

353 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:15:56pm

re: #351 rawmuse

I once shared a dressing room with John Tesh. That guy knew how to write a contract. On his rider, buried deep in the thing was a clause that said he had to have a new, in the box, World Wide Wrestling Action Figure, on his dressing room counter top, as he arrived to the venue. If he got there, and it was not there, he knew that the producer had not read the whole rider. An attorney would call that a compliance clause, I guess.

Hmmm.

354 theheat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:16:56pm

re: #298 rawmuse

Yeah, sitting around a hundred thousand years, a several million - you get pretty comfortable thinking you’re A#1 top dog. Next thing you know - blammo! - lights out. Like the old joke about the last thing a mosquito sees when it hits the windshield. (Its ass.)

Life was pretty good right up until that last unfortunate part.

355 lobo91  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:17:00pm

re: #340 Bobibutu

Man could we use a few like him just now!

I wonder what he thinks of Obama’s habit of using words like “crisis” and “catastrophe” as much as possible recently? If Obama had been one of the engineers in Houston during the Apollo 13 mission, Kranz would have slapped him.

356 Last Mohican  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:17:53pm

re: #351 rawmuse

Okay, that one did it. You need to write a book, and I need to buy it and read it.

357 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:17:54pm

re: #307 Sharmuta

It’s just as likely he was pandering to that particular audience. I likewise don’t know what he personally thought. My point was that so far it’s the only quote to suggest he had a position on the matter. I don’t think it’s enough to form any sort of definitive portrayal of the man as a creationist without further corroborating evidence.


Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Also, to be clear, I think a meaningful distinction should be drawn between someone who believes in Creationism, and someone who wants it taught in science classes in schools as such.

358 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:18:09pm

re: #316 HoosierHoops

My dad took me to hear Jesse Owens speak when I was a kid..Got his autograph..
That man is a hero

OK, NOW I’m impressed.

359 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:19:03pm

re: #356 Last Mohican

Okay, that one did it. You need to write a book, and I need to buy it and read it.

I do keep diaries.

360 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:19:27pm

re: #355 lobo91

I wonder what he thinks of Obama’s habit of using words like “crisis” and “catastrophe” as much as possible recently? If Obama had been one of the engineers in Houston during the Apollo 13 mission, Kranz would have slapped him.

Like Obama would go to engineering school OR settle for a GS-11.

361 looking closely  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:19:50pm

re: #351 rawmuse

I once shared a dressing room with John Tesh. That guy knew how to write a contract. On his rider, buried deep in the thing was a clause that said he had to have a new, in the box, World Wide Wrestling Action Figure, on his dressing room counter top, as he arrived to the venue. If he got there, and it was not there, he knew that the producer had not read the whole rider. An attorney would call that a compliance clause, I guess.

Supposedly, the famous Van Halen “M&M” clause was for effectively the same reason.

362 Gus  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:19:56pm

re: #359 rawmuse

I do keep diaries.

Was Tesh a nice guy? I never got into his gig but he always seemed like a nice person.

363 lobo91  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:20:30pm

re: #360 OldLineTexan

Like Obama would go to engineering school OR settle for a GS-11.

Well, if you’re gonna be picky about it, he would’ve been about 10, anyway….

364 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:20:33pm

Jacques Cousteau - onboard Calypso @ Toulon France - 1962 and on a flight back to the states ~ 1972 - he didn’t remember me specifically but remembered our Navy Divers group that came aboard his ship in ‘62.

365 rawmuse  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:20:59pm

re: #362 Gus 802

Was Tesh a nice guy? I never got into his gig but he always seemed like a nice person.

He never gave me a reason to dislike him, except that I found his music a bit too diatonic.

366 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:21:50pm

re: #352 albusteve

it was…earlier by a few years Micky Mantle doffed his cap and waved to me from center field at Comisky Park….there are lizards here that would put that minor stuff to shame….but it was huge for me as a kid

Are you kidding? That’s incredible!

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:23:07pm

When I was about eight, I spent an hour or so on a train, chatting with John Madden. My parents never followed any sports, and I had not the faintest idea who this guy was, but I was that kid who would talk to anyone, endlessly.

I have no idea if he was entertained, or couldn’t figure out how to get away.

368 OldLineTexan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:23:09pm

I met a lot of space folk over nine years. But now I bid you goodnight.

369 Bloodnok  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:24:01pm

Well, good night folkses.

For you albusteve:

Youtube Video
370 capitalist piglet  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:24:24pm

I shook hands with President Bush, actually. I was supposed to sing at his event but I got bumped (another stupid story).

I have to quit talking about this stuff. Must. Leave. This. Thread.

It’s been fun hearing about all of your experiences. See you guys upstairs.

371 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:25:26pm

re: #355 lobo91

I wonder what he thinks of Obama’s habit of using words like “crisis” and “catastrophe” as much as possible recently? If Obama had been one of the engineers in Houston during the Apollo 13 mission, Kranz would have slapped him.

Probably thinks it’s cop out BS.

Kranz is the benchmark for personal accountability!

Too much of a gentleman for violence - but would have put his foot so far up Zer0s ass verbally he would have had to visit a dentist to get it out.

“Failure is not an option” - makes my hair stand up still!

372 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:26:35pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

When I was about eight, I spent an hour or so on a train, chatting with John Madden. My parents never followed any sports, and I had not the faintest idea who this guy was, but I was that kid who would talk to anyone, endlessly.

I have no idea if he was entertained, or couldn’t figure out how to get away.

Heh - Madden lives in Oakland and still does not fly anywhere.

373 wolfie  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:37:17pm

re: #119 Rexatosis

Great post! The problem with Herzberg, of course, is not that he doesn’t understand Aquinas, nor even that he most likely has never read him. That’s not so unusual among philosophy profs today and is no great scandal. The problem is that he misrepresents him to the point of silliness.

In any event, there are a great many philosophical arguments favoring intelligent design. Whether weak or strong, they should NOT be confused with “Intelligent Design,” which is a specific argument purporting to be a valid hypothesis in natural science.

To maintain, as I do, that Intelligent Design has no place in science class is NOT to say that the whole subject of intelligent design is unworthy of consideration in philosophy. One could even find a philosophical defense of intelligent design compelling without giving the pseudo-science of ID the least credence.

374 avanti  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:39:50pm

Spent a two hours with John McCain back in the 70’s. Shared a elevator with Alice Cooper, met Ray Charles at the consumer electronics show and saw, but did not meet a lot of celebrities at the casinos over the years.

375 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:51:49pm

re: #373 wolfie

Great post! The problem with Herzberg, of course, is not that he doesn’t understand Aquinas, nor even that he most likely has never read him. That’s not so unusual among philosophy profs today and is no great scandal. The problem is that he misrepresents him to the point of silliness.

In any event, there are a great many philosophical arguments favoring intelligent design. Whether weak or strong, they should NOT be confused with “Intelligent Design,” which is a specific argument purporting to be a valid hypothesis in natural science.

To maintain, as I do, that Intelligent Design has no place in science class is NOT to say that the whole subject of intelligent design is unworthy of consideration in philosophy. One could even find a philosophical defense of intelligent design compelling without giving the pseudo-science of ID the least credence.

Then they should call it by it proper philosophical name: teleology:

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

376 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 9:59:10pm

FWIW - trivia - The Neil Armstrong encounter in Bangkok - at a “respectable” night club - we all met him, shook his hand and congratulated him - Neil was having a Brandy … an older and wiser IBMer (Hank W.) - took out a 100 baht note - watched and waited for him to finish his drink. Followed the waiter who collected his empty brandy snifter and asked the bartender if he could purchase the empty, unwashed glass. It is now sitting on his mantle in his pioneer family cabin (now his retirement home) in Upstate NY.

Ahhhhh memories.

377 Rich H  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:00:48pm

re: #119 Rexatosis

If I recall my reading of Aquinas (and that was quite a while ago) he equated the existence of a rational universe (based on the Aristotlian view) with a rational Creator (God) to logically (through deductive reasoning) prove the existance of God. It was not that inanimate objects were rational but they followed rational rules. Though Aquinas’ language is that of the middle ages I see and can recall nothing in his argument that violates Newtonian Physics (or Einstein’s) nor violates Darwin’s theory of evolution. In fact it is my strong opinion Aquinas’ view is reinforced by the later scientific discoveries showing the Universe functions under rational laws that can be understood and used to predict future events (such as eclipses, etc.). Since the prevailing theory on the origins of the Universe argues for a point of origin (the Big Bang Theory) from which the Universe was begat (to borrow a Biblical term) it would seem logical to assume whatever begat the Universe (by definition the Creator) was rational. And since God is a synonym for the Creator, God can be assumed to have been Rational. If we accept such an argument (based on Aquinas) all we have is God creating a Rational Universe operating under rational laws. Of course that would lead to the question of “Since God created a rational Universe operating under rational laws why would it be necessary for God to have to “tinker” with “his” (or her or its) handywork as the “intelligent design” advocates claim rather than letting the rational laws of physics and evolution play out?” It is not necessary to reject the deductive reasoning of Aquinas to accept Evolution nor is it necessary to create strawmen based on a very narrow and biased reading of Aquinas (Thomas Aquinas was, to put it bluntly, one of the greatest intellects of the Middle Ages, he was not a twit, did not think rocks had intellect, and to use that as a strawman is pathetically weak and insulting and does not do justice to Medaeval Thought nor today’s academic enviornment.).

Modern Physics - at least at the quantum level - is not rational in the classical sense. This creates a problem for Aquinas I suppose. The orthodox scientific view is that when we perform a measurement of, say the magnetic spin of a particle, the direction of that spin is not merely unpredictable - it is “objectively uncaused.”

This is revealing in that even when Aquinas’ “First Cause” appeals as an explanation, science remains true to it’s commitment to finding natural, not supernatural explanations for phenomena. Even to the point of admitting that some phenomena are objectively uncaused.

378 Bob Dillon  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:19:20pm

re: #377 Rich H

In simpler terms.

The act of observation changes the observed ?

379 Salamantis  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:39:10pm

re: #357 looking closely

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Also, to be clear, I think a meaningful distinction should be drawn between someone who believes in Creationism, and someone who wants it taught in science classes in schools as such.

And Jindal signed a Disco Institute creafted creationist bill into law in Louisiana, so obviously he DOES want it taught in science classes in public schools.

380 Teh Flowah  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 10:53:32pm

re: #357 looking closely

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Also, to be clear, I think a meaningful distinction should be drawn between someone who believes in Creationism, and someone who wants it taught in science classes in schools as such.

The first is an idiot, the latter, a bigger idiot. And intelligent design proponents are simply big idiots that are dishonest with themselves and others.

381 theheat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 11:08:59pm

re: #338 NJDhockeyfan

OUCH. Here are a couple more that have achieved infamous status.

Buddy Rich and Paul Anka [1] (written) [2] (audio).

These make nice bookends to the Pat Metheny rant.

And I’ll never think of ‘clams’ the same again.

382 Perfected Democrat  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 11:39:46pm

I was more inspired by Teilhard de Chardin’s The Phenomenon of Man (read it about 4.4 decades ago)… While of course no one can say with 100% certainty (without being perhaps a little pretentious) that something akin to the concept of “God” does, or does not exist for that matter, though I personally think it’s pretty much a foregone conclusion that it’s all really just a bunch of rocks banging around in space, and we’re simply very, very lucky to be dabbling in conjecture about it’s nature. Me thinks a wise man should have the humility to know the difference between certain and authentically empirical knowledge and conjecture…

383 Brit in Japan  Wed, Feb 25, 2009 11:43:28pm

re: #357 looking closely

Do you have any evidence to the contrary?

Also, to be clear, I think a meaningful distinction should be drawn between someone who believes in Creationism, and someone who wants it taught in science classes in schools as such.

Did Reagan ever sign one single law that violated or changed the establishment clause and paved the way for a religious cult doctrine to be taught in a science classroom?

I think therein would lie the evidence you seek.

BiJ.

384 elcaro  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 4:55:06am

The words of Metropolitan Hierotheos Vlachos:
Your text to link…

I think the boundaries are clear and all that has been set down has spelt out the topic of the work and mission of both the scientist and the theologian respectively. Both are authentic when they work within their bounds, but when they depart from them and enter each other’s sphere without the necessary presuppositions and rules that presuppose each framework and each area, then they become ridiculous.

In general, the theologian may become a scientist, but through Science, and the scientist may become a theologian, but through Theology. The theologian cannot play the scientist through his Theology, nor can the scientist play the theologian through his Science.

The great Fathers of the Church were theologians through the experience of revelation and they even became scientists through conscientious study and learning of human Science. That is why they are whole.

385 [deleted]  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 5:40:55am
386 Annar  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 5:49:12am

re: #65 doppelganglander

Unfortunately that idea has not been born out in christian Europe where the tendance is toward unbelief (now the majority in Sweden) and Islam now approaching the majority status in a number of large European cities like Rotterdam.

387 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 6:38:45am

It’s faith. The ID people have to realize that it’s all faith. They can use all the “scientific” and “philosophical” arguments they wish to convince

themselves

God exists, since they clearly don’t have enough faith to just

believe

it, but they have no right to try to force these arguments on other people’s children through deceptive means.

388 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 6:40:08am

Frak. I mean to italicize those words, not quote them.

It’s faith. The ID people have to realize that it’s all faith. They can use all the “scientific” and “philosophical” arguments they wish to convince themselves God exists, since they clearly don’t have enough faith to just believe it, but they have no right to try to force these arguments on other people’s children through deceptive means.

389 Tigger2005  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 6:41:58am

re: #385 Joel

Frankly (with all respects to the webmaster) the whole topic bores me.

It won’t bore you when you’re living in a world that’s the result of the outworking of several forces that are weakening the foundations of Western civilization. This is one of them.

390 Pupdawg  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 7:16:29am

re: #385 Joel

Frankly (with all respects to the webmaster) the whole topic bores me.

eenie meenie minnie ditto
just found a new zitto
festering on dread sheetto
likely to get me a red hitto
or two
please don’t tazo
me lazy arse brozo

Humor is a direct result of evolution contigent upon intelligent desgn.

391 Dragonwolf  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:16:40am

Don’t have time to read all the comments so I’ll just hope I’m not repeating someone else’s thought.

I wonder if DI is fighting so hard to get ID into science classes because they know that it is easier to seem reasonable when your using semantic slants and the other side is using cold boring facts. They know if they actually went up against philosophers who are their equals (and usually betters) at semantics, they wouldn’t last five minutes. Consider that Mr Herzberg uses this as an intro to his class. It’s not even worthy of a full class, only enough to be a teaser for the serious philosophy to follow.

392 Land Shark  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:17:31am

re: #387 Tigger2005

Exactly. I’m a believer in God and while I believe evolution is His work, i.e., intelligent design, I don’t believe ID has any place in science class. It’s a matter of faith, as I’ve posted numerous times before. Yet creationists seem hell bent (pardon the pun) on shoving this in by hook or by crook, causing incalculable damage to science education in the process.

I wish creationists would cease and desist in this stupid endeavor so Charles could drop the subject. But as long as they keep it up I hope Charles keeps it up, they simply can’t be allowed to turn science class into a farce. These folks seem to be intensifying their efforts, so giving up and letting them win is not a reasonable option, in my opinion.

393 Land Shark  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:29:26am

re: #379 Salamantis

That’s my big problem with Jindal. He bought it hook, line and sinker. I hope more scientific type organizations boycott New Orleans as a result of his stupid ID law. I love the city but they need to know actions have consequences.

What frustrates me about this whole thing is that not teaching ID Creationism in science class in no way shape or form hinders it’s teaching. This can easily be taught in religion class or Sunday school or any appropriate religious setting. Parents can teach it to their kids if that’s their belief. Science types aren’t involved in an effort to force that evolution be taught in church, or that ID Creationism not be taught in those settings. Leave science class alone, you idiots!

394 Grogtank  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:33:30am

re: #273 Quodlibetarian

No offence to the author of the piece linked, but he doesn’t really understand Aquinas if he’s putting him with proponents of ID. Check out this piece by Michael Tkacz of Gonzaga U., which shows the shortcomings of both ID and accounts that insist Darwinism necessarily = atheism:

http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2008/0811fea4.asp

Thank you for this. I have often established similar (much less articulate) conclusions in philosophical conversations with my friends. All this time I’ve been an unwitting Thomist. Does this mean I’m a Catholic too?! Oh my.

395 Joel  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 9:00:25am

re: #389 Tigger2005

It won’t bore you when you’re living in a world that’s the result of the outworking of several forces that are weakening the foundations of Western civilization. This is one of them.

What worries me is the dark forces of medieval ism emanating form the Middle East and Central Asia.

396 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 9:30:28am

re: #385 Joel

Frankly (with all respects to the webmaster) the whole topic bores me.

These threads typically attract a helluva lotta comments, so obviously many Lizards don’t share your boredom with them.

I guess you’ll just have to yawn and bear it.

397 Irish Rose  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 9:31:29am

re: #385 Joel

Frankly (with all respects to the webmaster) the whole topic bores me.

Then why are you commenting?

It’s a free country, and there are other topics for your perusal.
Begone.

398 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 9:35:09am

re: #395 Joel

What worries me is the dark forces of medieval ism emanating form the Middle East and Central Asia.

I’m concerned about ALL the dark forces of medievalism, both foreign and domestic.

399 Larry A. Herzberg  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 10:32:52am

#373 Wolfie-
#119 Rexatosis-

Herzberg has posted a reply:

[Link: larryherzberg.com…]

Seems like a good paraphrase to me…

400 voirdire  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 11:37:45am

I didn’t realize the issue was whether there is a God. I thought it was whether creationism should be taught in the public school.

401 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 11:59:30am

re: #400 voirdire

I didn’t realize the issue was whether there is a God. I thought it was whether creationism should be taught in the public school.

That’s what it is. But it really shouldn’t be. OF COURSE religious dogmas shouldn’t be taught in public school science classes, because they’re NOT SCIENCE; the very contention that they should be is nonsensical and absurd.

Unfortunately, that incontrovertible fact doesn’t seem to faze these theocratic fanatics.

402 cpuller  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:19:56pm

I’m not a particularly religious person since I was raised in a single parent home and we weren’t taken to church much. So, you know that about me. I do consider myself Christian. I’ve been Christened and I’ve been Baptized.

I’m not sold on 6000 years (isn’t it getting closer to 7000? :P) And I’m also not sold on evolution to the extent many are. Count me in the group thinking there’s something else. I don’t want Creationism taught in school but I also don’t want evolution taught as if it is settled science. I do get the whole “Well, science keeps questioning itself” consideration. But, it seems they don’t question themselves as much on evolution as they might ought to.

There, kill me now and get it over with.

403 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:33:09pm

re: #402 cpuller

I’m not a particularly religious person since I was raised in a single parent home and we weren’t taken to church much. So, you know that about me. I do consider myself Christian. I’ve been Christened and I’ve been Baptized.

I’m not sold on 6000 years (isn’t it getting closer to 7000? :P) And I’m also not sold on evolution to the extent many are. Count me in the group thinking there’s something else. I don’t want Creationism taught in school but I also don’t want evolution taught as if it is settled science. I do get the whole “Well, science keeps questioning itself” consideration. But, it seems they don’t question themselves as much on evolution as they might ought to.

There, kill me now and get it over with.

The central tenets of evolutionary theory - random genetic mutastion and nonrandom environmental mutation - are as settled as empirical science gets. For 150 years, experimental researchers have been investigating and interrogating these tenets, and ALL of the empirical evidence they have derived has supported evolution, while NONE of the empirical evidence has contradicted it.

As to your suggestion that we should teach bioscience without teaching evolutionary theory? That makes about as much sense as teaching geology without teaching plate tectonics, or teaching about the solar system without teaching heliocentrism, or teaching physics without teaching relativity theory or quantum mechanics. As Theodore Dobzhanslky correctly and consisely stated: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution.”

[Link: www.pbs.org…]

404 cpuller  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:38:37pm

re: #403 Salamantis

The central tenets of evolutionary theory - random genetic mutastion and nonrandom environmental mutation - are as settled as empirical science gets. For 150 years, experimental researchers have been investigating and interrogating these tenets, and ALL of the empirical evidence they have derived has supported evolution, while NONE of the empirical evidence has contradicted it.

As to your suggestion that we should teach bioscience without teaching evolutionary theory? That makes about as much sense as teaching geology without teaching plate tectonics, or teaching about the solar system without teaching heliocentrism, or teaching physics without teaching relativity theory or quantum mechanics. As Theodore Dobzhanslky correctly and consisely stated: “Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution.”

[Link: www.pbs.org…]

You’re just going to have to accept that, because most of the people I know who are conservatives but are moving away from thinking from a church perspective think pretty much the same about evolution as I do. There are, again speaking as a layperson who probably won’t go researching as much as you have, too many holes in the fossil record for me to just accept it as proven fact. Judging from the reaction, I’m sure I’ll be considered just as looney as someone waning to force ID to be taught.

405 cpuller  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 12:47:00pm

I just read that link and I have a serious problem with it. The writer of the article assumes that if you don’t believe in evolution then you must believe the 6000 year alternative. This is hardly the case for from what I believe a growing portion of people.

Please realize, I am not saying I disbelieve natural selection. I’m sure this will be used as a springboard to say, “Well, then you must believe the full thing if you believe the part.” Not necessarily so. I’m not educated enough to put all of my thoughts in a manner that you may understand, although I’m college educated.

406 rexatosis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 2:33:10pm

Avram:

Just read LH’s response. My () comment at the end of my post may be a bit harsh but it seems to me LH is still constructing a straw man around Aquinas (inanimate objects and purpose) based on a narrow reading of “Summa.” This however is probably more due to the cultural/historical/scientific division in writing/argumentative styles created by the gap of c. 8 centuries than anything else.

407 odorlesspaintthinner  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 7:13:33pm

So-o-o, can we infer Intelligent Design from Spinoza? Any takers?

408 Rich H  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 7:26:34pm

re: #378 Bobibutu

In simpler terms.

The act of observation changes the observed ?

That is one hypothesis - the orthodox view when I was in college. Another possibility posited by H. Everett was that there are multiple universes. In one universe, the measurement comes out one way, but there are other universes in which the measurement comes out differently. This is known as the “Many Worlds” hypothesis (note it’s only a hypothesis) and has been gaining acceptance in recent years.

If there are multiple universes, then perhaps there is a different universe for every possible unfolding of history. There may be a universe in which Napoleon was the victor at Waterloo. Or a universe in which Jesus wasn’t crucified. Or a universe in which the Cubs won the World Series.

409 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:17:17pm

re: #404 cpuller

You’re just going to have to accept that, because most of the people I know who are conservatives but are moving away from thinking from a church perspective think pretty much the same about evolution as I do. There are, again speaking as a layperson who probably won’t go researching as much as you have, too many holes in the fossil record for me to just accept it as proven fact. Judging from the reaction, I’m sure I’ll be considered just as looney as someone waning to force ID to be taught.

This is known as the God of the Gaps argument. Unfortunately for its proponents, those gaps are becoming smaller and fewer as time goes on and more and more transitional fossils are unearthed:

[Link: www.talkorigins.org…]

[Link: en.wikipedia.org…]

The trend is not in favor of the Gappists.

410 Salamantis  Thu, Feb 26, 2009 8:21:38pm

re: #405 cpuller

I just read that link and I have a serious problem with it. The writer of the article assumes that if you don’t believe in evolution then you must believe the 6000 year alternative. This is hardly the case for from what I believe a growing portion of people.

Please realize, I am not saying I disbelieve natural selection. I’m sure this will be used as a springboard to say, “Well, then you must believe the full thing if you believe the part.” Not necessarily so. I’m not educated enough to put all of my thoughts in a manner that you may understand, although I’m college educated.

Do you accept that all terrestrial lifeforms evolutionarily diverged from a tiny set of ancient ancestors? What about the contention that human and great apes evolutionarliy doverged from a hominid common ancestor several million years ago? Shared artifactual retroviral DNA sequences conclusively demonstrate the veracity of these contentions beyond rational statistical doubt:

[Link: www.newyorker.com…]

Excerpt:

“If Charles Darwin reappeared today, he might be surprised to learn that humans are descended from viruses as well as from apes,” Weiss wrote.

Darwin’s surprise almost certainly would be mixed with delight: when he suggested, in “The Descent of Man” (1871), that humans and apes shared a common ancestor, it was a revolutionary idea, and it remains one today. Yet nothing provides more convincing evidence for the “theory” of evolution than the viruses contained within our DNA. Until recently, the earliest available information about the history and the course of human diseases, like smallpox and typhus, came from mummies no more than four thousand years old. Evolution cannot be measured in a time span that short. Endogenous retroviruses provide a trail of molecular bread crumbs leading millions of years into the past.

Darwin’s theory makes sense, though, only if humans share most of those viral fragments with relatives like chimpanzees and monkeys. And we do, in thousands of places throughout our genome. If that were a coincidence, humans and chimpanzees would have had to endure an incalculable number of identical viral infections in the course of millions of years, and then, somehow, those infections would have had to end up in exactly the same place within each genome. The rungs of the ladder of human DNA consist of three billion pairs of nucleotides spread across forty-six chromosomes. The sequences of those nucleotides determine how each person differs from another, and from all other living things. The only way that humans, in thousands of seemingly random locations, could possess the exact retroviral DNA found in another species is by inheriting it from a common ancestor.

Molecular biology has made precise knowledge about the nature of that inheritance possible. With extensive databases of genetic sequences, reconstructing ancestral genomes has become common, and retroviruses have been found in the genome of every vertebrate species that has been studied. Anthropologists and biologists have used them to investigate not only the lineage of primates but the relationships among animals—dogs, jackals, wolves, and foxes, for example—and also to test whether similar organisms may in fact be unrelated.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh
Texas County at Center of Border Fight Is Overwhelmed by Migrant Deaths EAGLE PASS, Tex. - The undertaker lighted a cigarette and held it between his latex-gloved fingers as he stood over the bloated body bag lying in the bed of his battered pickup truck. The woman had been fished out ...
Cheechako
4 weeks ago
Views: 477 • Comments: 0 • Rating: 1