What Right Wing Extremists?

US News • Views: 1,960

As the anti-Obama rhetoric keeps getting more and more insane, we can expect to see more incidents like this.

(10-15) 11:40 PDT SAN FRANCISCO — A Del Norte County man has been indicted by a federal grand jury in San Francisco on charges that he threatened in an e-mail to kill President Obama and members of his family.

John Gimbel, 59, of Crescent City e-mailed a message Sept. 28 bearing a subject line that read, in part, “Kill the ‘president’ … then write ‘fed s-’ on his chest with a felt tip,” said the indictment issued Tuesday, two days before Obama’s scheduled visit to San Francisco today for fundraisers at the St. Francis Hotel.

In the body of the e-mail, Gimbel allegedly wrote, “Kill that … wife of yours,” and, “Do it to his children and family first in front of him. Failure to comply. That’ll teach him.”

Gimbel was indicted on charges of making threats against the president, threats against the president’s immediate family and threats transmitted through interstate communication.

Jump to bottom

413 comments
1 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:26:47pm

But there's absolutely no connection to the rhetoric of certain talk show hosts. Nooo. Look! A pink elephant!

2 SeaMonkey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:27:42pm

Who did he send the email to?

3 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:29:08pm

I suspect we'll be seeing more of this.

4 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:29:24pm

re: #2 SeaMonkey

Who did he send the email to?

Important thing is, it got to the people who needed it. Hope they throw the book at him.

5 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:30:54pm
John Gimbel, 59, of Crescent City e-mailed a message Sept. 28 bearing a subject line that read, in part, “Kill the ‘president’ ... then write ‘fed s-’ on his chest with a felt tip,”

Bringing up images of the murdered census worker- who was found hung- bound and naked. That reeks of anti-government bile. I'm sure our friends in the kookoshpere will call him a leftist plant.

6 KingKenrod  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:30:56pm

The story says he's a first amendment whacko. Could be a sovereign citizen nut or an anarchist. The "Fed" writing on the chest is straight out of the census worker murder last month.

7 Danny  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:31:02pm

"The guy has some type of obsessive disorder. ... He's become very fixated on his First Amendment rights, thinking that transcends all bounds and that you can say anything you want and that it's protected speech. He probably could stand to benefit from some therapy."

Understatement of the day.

8 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:31:49pm

Anyone think this guy'll be made into a martyr, a victim of a frame-up, or an "obvious" false-flag by the end of the day?

9 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:31:52pm

re: #3 Thanos

Yes. Unfortunately we will. I just hope there won't be any serious attempts. That would be devastating.

10 Gretchen  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:34:08pm

Yes, this man would certainly not be mentally ill if Glen Beck didn't have a talk show. I'm sure he was completely sane, listened to FOX and went nuts.

11 Joe G.  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:34:16pm

"What up? He's just criticizing the administration's policies."
-Michael Steele

12 stickman  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:34:33pm

This kind of stuff is totally criminal. And two wrongs don't make a right etc. but... Thank God no one ever threatened Bush. (said with sarcasm)

13 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:35:36pm

re: #10 Gretchen

Yes, this man would certainly not be mentally ill if Glen Beck didn't have a talk show. I'm sure he was completely sane, listened to FOX and went nuts.

I think that was the clear implication of the article, and the sole reason for Charles' posting it - to prove that Beck makes people nuts.

//

14 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:35:44pm

re: #10 Gretchen

You just don't get it do you?

15 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:36:11pm

re: #14 enoughalready

You just don't get it do you?

No, gretchen gets it, but can't stand to look the truth in the face.

16 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:36:12pm

I wondered how long it would take the apologists to start showing up and saying "the left did it too!" or "he's just crazy!"

Answer: about 10 minutes.

17 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #3 Thanos

I suspect we'll be seeing more of this.

LOTS more... this is just the tip of the iceberg.

18 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:37:49pm

re: #15 Guanxi88

By the way, I really wanted to discuss radicalism etc with you but I didn't have time before and I am too damn tired right now but I might bring up the subject some other day if you don't mind?

19 denmeister  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:38:19pm

What color is he?

20 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:38:52pm

re: #10 Gretchen

Yes, this man would certainly not be mentally ill if Glen Beck didn't have a talk show. I'm sure he was completely sane, listened to FOX and went nuts.

I'm quite sure he would still be crazy. However, I'm willing to bet that there will be those in the whackosphere who will insist he's a patriot, not a mental case, and that does worry me.

21 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:38:58pm

re: #19 denmeister

Why should that matter?

22 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:40:56pm

re: #19 denmeister

What color is he?

That's your first comment in more than two years. Where have you been, sleeping in a cave?

And what does the guy's "color" have to do with anything at all?

23 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:40:58pm

re: #19 denmeister

What color is he?

Don't know as it matters. But Del Norte County is overwhelmingly white, so statistically speaking, he's probably white.

24 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:41:39pm

re: #23 SanFranciscoZionist

Don't know as it matters. But Del Norte County is overwhelmingly white, so statistically speaking, he's probably white.

Of course, if he should happen to be Japanese, statistics won't actually change that.

25 Gretchen  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:42:28pm

So Charles you really do belive this is a result of right wing talk show hosts and not mental illness? I have a nephew who has mental health issues who blames my 80 year old Democrat parents personally for the Bush presidency because they lived in Florida during the 2000 election. Really, they got phone calls every month or so about this until 2005. He would berate them for allowing Bush to steal the election. If he had stopped taking medication violent actions wouldn't have been surprising. He's moved on to a variety of other issues and leaves them alone, but it is the illness not the left wing sites he visited that made him crazy.

26 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:44:28pm

re: #25 Gretchen

So Charles you really do belive this is a result of right wing talk show hosts and not mental illness?

I don't know the answer to that and neither do you.

But if you don't think the crazy rhetoric coming from the right wing -- not just talk show hosts, but blogs and tea party fanatics -- is having an effect on these kinds of people, you're living in a dream world.

27 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:45:47pm

re: #25 Gretchen

The only clue we seem to have so far is that he seems to have been inspired by the killing of Bill Sparkman. That's pretty much all we know.

28 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:46:20pm

re: #25 Gretchen

And I notice that you've shown up in every single thread about right wing threats to make exactly the same excuses.

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

29 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:46:58pm

re: #18 enoughalready

Not at all. I can slack off at work anytime to discuss this kinda stuff.

:)

30 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:48:05pm

F U troll. Color doesn't matter except to those like you who are obsessed with race.

31 Gretchen  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:48:13pm

re: #20 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm quite sure he would still be crazy. However, I'm willing to bet that there will be those in the whackosphere who will insist he's a patriot, not a mental case, and that does worry me.

I agree. However the guy is crazy and could have latched on to some other extreme viewpoint - left, right, religious, etc. That doesn't mean people on the left right or religious leaders are to blame. Which talk show host advocates killing the president? I believe anyone on any of the networks or cable have advocated opposing him certainly. If this guy tried to kill Limbaugh would everyone here blame Chris Matthews?

32 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:48:27pm

This guy has a long history of making threats to public officials. He didn't just go whacko after Obama got elected because of something Glen Beck said.

33 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:49:59pm

re: #26 Charles

I don't know the answer to that and neither do you.
blockquote>

Charles, but you, not Gretchen, are the one making claims here.

34 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:50:16pm
In April 2004, Gimbel was accused of complaining about a $5 parking ticket in an e-mail and threatening to deputize "all of the citizens of Crescent City to fix up some of these f- up piggos. Grab those hi-powered deer rifles, each and every, and get in groups of 50 and more and go breeze away to dust the skull of the police chief."...

John Vrieze, a Eureka attorney who represented Del Norte County in both cases, said today, "The guy has some type of obsessive disorder. ... He's become very fixated on his First Amendment rights, thinking that transcends all bounds and that you can say anything you want and that it's protected speech. He probably could stand to benefit from some therapy."

35 joe g.  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:50:28pm

I don't think anybody's worried about completely sane people taking a shot at the president after listening to right-wing demagogues. Rather, the reason that the constant barrage of hysterical anti-Obama rhetoric is irresponsible is because of the effect it can have on people suffering from mental disorders.

36 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:50:38pm

re: #33 FoolsMate

Charles, but you, not Gretchen, are the one making claims here.

What claims are those? Did you read the post, or some imaginary version of the post that exists only in your mind?

37 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:51:23pm

re: #33 FoolsMate


As the anti-Obama rhetoric keeps getting more and more insane, we can expect to see more incidents like this.


This doesn't seem like a real stretch.

38 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:51:42pm

Well this guy is obviously insane, but I have to agree with Charles that this type of unstable individual is only made more so by crazy talk.

This has been apparent in the last few years as assaults against veterans and active military members have escalated to the point of murder. I believe this also is a result of the anti military push by some who have stated our military is a bunch of murdering, baby killers, and other types of slander.

39 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:51:46pm

re: #35 joe g.

I don't think anybody's worried about completely sane people taking a shot at the president after listening to right-wing demagogues. Rather, the reason that the constant barrage of hysterical anti-Obama rhetoric is irresponsible is because of the effect it can have on people suffering from mental disorders.

Buy that quiet man a cigar!

40 denmeister  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:52:10pm

re: #22 Charles

Because he's obviously a racist as well.

41 Gus  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:52:18pm

No True Scotsman

/

42 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:52:19pm

Your post makes no sense unless you are attributing this man's threats to the rise of right wing extremism.

43 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:53:10pm

re: #40 denmeister

Because he's obviously a racist as well.

What the hell are you talking about?

44 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:53:36pm

re: #41 Gus 802

How can he be a right wing extremist if he's simply a right wing crazy?
///

45 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:54:15pm

By the way - I will happily claim the following:

- Some people suffer from conditions that make them prone to delusions
- These people do not exist in a cultural vacuum
- There is currently an atmosphere were certain media are portraying the POTUS as a traitor/liar/nazi/fascist/communist etc
- This atmosphere affects people with a certain type of disorders a whole lot more than they affect normal people, effectively fueling their paranoid fantasies

If you disagree with this - then feel free.

46 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:54:17pm

re: #40 denmeister

Never mind. You're out of here.

47 keithgabryelski  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:54:25pm

re: #31 Gretchen

If this guy tried to kill Limbaugh would everyone here blame Chris Matthews?

I suspect there would be some talk about it, and Chris Matthews would be general target of ridicule.

48 brandon13  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:56:40pm

re: #43 Charles

What the hell are you talking about?

I thought he was calling denmeister a racist, but maybe not.

49 brandon13  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:57:05pm

re: #48 brandon13

I thought he was calling denmeister a racist, but maybe not.

Nevermind...

50 keithgabryelski  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:57:42pm

re: #38 lrsshadow


This has been apparent in the last few years as assaults against veterans and active military members have escalated to the point of murder. I believe this also is a result of the anti military push by some who have stated our military is a bunch of murdering, baby killers, and other types of slander.

reference citation, please. I'd like to read up on this claim.

51 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:57:55pm

It's getting flouncy in here.

52 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:58:27pm

re: #16 Charles

I wondered how long it would take the apologists to start showing up and saying "the left did it too!" or "he's just crazy!"

Answer: about 10 minutes.

According to the news report which you linked, this person had previously threatened the life of a police chief in 2004 and the life of a sheriff's deputy in 2006, in each case because he had received minor traffic citations. It therefore seems fair for the lawyer for the County to have observed that the guy is a first amendment crazy who is in need of treatment.
His present death threats against the POTUS and First Family might well have been triggered by the recent anti-Obama rhetoric. It would be very interesting to know whether he was a reader of one or more of the extreme right wing blogs, or whether he was a fan of one or more of the extreme right wing TV or radio shows. It would also be interesting to know whether there might have been another trigger for the threat, such as perhaps his membership in a racist or anti-government group.

53 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:58:28pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

It's getting flouncy in here.

Yes, we could have some greasy little spots on the pavement in short order.

54 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:59:12pm

Since when did it become so controversial to condemn death threats to the President?

55 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 1:59:48pm

Looks like it's popular to trot out the "left did it too!" stupidity.

56 brandon13  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:00:16pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Since when did it become so controversial to condemn death threats to the President?

When the shoe was put on the other foot.

57 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:00:30pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Since when did it become so controversial to condemn death threats to the President?

Since January 20, 2009.

58 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:00:45pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

The only thing I object to is posting under the title "What Right Wing Extremists?" I don't think the facts support that connection.

59 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:01:58pm

re: #52 Spare O'Lake

I checked around earlier. There is a John Gimbel who wrote a few books about the injustices of allied occupation of Germany but no indication that it might be the same guy.

60 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:02:39pm
Gimbel was arrested by the Del Norte County Sheriff’s Department in 2004 on suspicion of posting a threatening message on an Internet forum after he received a $5 parking ticket. The message asked citizens to “grab those hi-powered deer rifles” and “dust the skull” of the Crescent City police chief. A state court conviction in that case was later overturned. Gimbel then filed a federal civil rights lawsuit against the state, but a federal judge in Oakland dismissed it in 2007, calling Gimbel’s lawsuit “profanity-ridden drivel.”

How many leftists in Crescent city have two handguns and advocate using deer rifles on Cops?

The 2004 case PDF

[Link: www.websupp.org...]

61 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:02:40pm

re: #45 enoughalready

By the way - I will happily claim the following:

- Some people suffer from conditions that make them prone to delusions
- These people do not exist in a cultural vacuum
- There is currently an atmosphere were certain media are portraying the POTUS as a traitor/liar/nazi/fascist/communist etc
- This atmosphere affects people with a certain type of disorders a whole lot more than they affect normal people, effectively fueling their paranoid fantasies

If you disagree with this - then feel free.

This is exactly the right diagnosis - outrageous rhetoric can easily trigger the unstable to commit criminal acts. Note, too, that the growth of radicalism in the larger discourse has the natural tendency to push the extremes into the mainstream (hang around folk who curse, and you'll think nothing of asking your mother to pass the f*cking butter). These are dangerous times, indeed.

62 Sergeant Major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:03:02pm

re: #16 Charles

The left did it to and he's just crazy/// Has it been ten minutes?

63 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:03:45pm

re: #58 FoolsMate

Are you saying that because the man has mental problems he can't be classified as a right wing extremist?

64 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:05:26pm

Here's the comment Gimbel left on the City Forum that caused the earlier arrest:

Just got a $5 parking ticket. The Crescent City piggy-wiggly that gave it to me left a little over-zealous.
That’s a drag. I am hereby deputizing all the citizens of Crescent City to fix up some of the f*ck up
piggos. Grab those hi-powered deer rifles, each and every, and get in groups of 50 and more and go breeze
away to dust the skull of the policy chief.
Make an example of that scum. That should do it for awhile. However, if any other piggos down at the
station give you crap on this or get in the way, then blow their skulls off, too.

65 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:05:44pm

re: #58 FoolsMate

The fact that he wanted to write "Fed" on Obama's chest indicates that he was inspired by the killing of Bill Sparkman. Even if the Sparkman killing wasn't motivated by anti-government sentiment, this guy interpreted it that way.

66 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:05:55pm

re: #50 keithgabryelski

I am going to run these in newest to oldest. Here are just a few cases. Can you say escalation of violence?

two marines shot dead outside of a recruitment station

[Link: www.katv.com...]

Marcus Luttrell's therapy dog shot dead outside of his home

[Link: www.dallasnews.com...]

National Guard Soldier Beaten

[Link: www.kirotv.com...]

67 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:06:17pm

re: #51 Killgore Trout

It's getting flouncy in here.

The smell of flounce is in the air.

68 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:06:52pm

re: #63 jaunte

No. I'm saying there aren't enough facts here to decide the matter.

69 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:07:36pm

re: #59 Killgore Trout

I checked around earlier. There is a John Gimbel who wrote a few books about the injustices of allied occupation of Germany but no indication that it might be the same guy.

It's not an overly common name, but not all that rare either.

70 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:08:18pm

re: #68 FoolsMate

I'm confident he's not an Obama voter.

71 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:08:53pm

re: #70 jaunte

Are you confident he voted at all?

72 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:08:55pm

re: #58 FoolsMate

The only thing I object to is posting under the title "What Right Wing Extremists?" I don't think the facts support that connection.

Eric Robert Rudolph and the Oklahoma City Bombers come to mind as people who performed extreme acts driven by rhetoric and hatred of what they viewed as the enemy.

Yes, I know it's just two datapoints, but I'm sure if i wanted I could find may more incidents out there given a little bit of searching.

73 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:09:17pm

re: #64 Thanos

I'd say the guy definitely has a problem with governmental authority as well as violent fantasies.

74 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:10:46pm

I'll just point out that in every single case of a right wing extremist being caught after threatening or doing violence, the posts at LGF about them have been full of people denying that there's any connection at all to the extreme rhetoric being promoted by right wing blogs, talk show hosts, and even politicians.

Every time.

75 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:11:16pm

re: #72 bloodstar

Eric Robert Rudolph and the Oklahoma City Bombers come to mind as people who performed extreme acts driven by rhetoric and hatred of what they viewed as the enemy.

Yes, I know it's just two datapoints, but I'm sure if i wanted I could find may more incidents out there given a little bit of searching.

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

76 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:12:00pm

Time for a twelve step program. The first step is admitting that you have a problem.

77 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:13:05pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

Wrong. Eric Rudolph was an extreme right wing anti-abortion fanatic and white supremacist, connected to the neo-Nazi Christian Identity movement.

78 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:13:11pm

re: #65 Killgore Trout

Yeah he seems to have a history of problem with authority and the email seems influenced by the Bill Sparkman murder. I don't think that's enough to conclude he was "right wing".

79 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:13:39pm

Charles: check mail in a couple mins.

80 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:14:25pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

I was outraged at what happened at Waco, too. I hated that the feds mishandled the whole thing and allowed a simple snatch-and-dash arrest raid to devolve into a fiery gotterdammerung for the cult and its members, making a martyr out of a monster and victims out of the children there.

I don't think that any of my concerns about what happened there could have been addressed by the use of lethal violence or high explosives, though.

81 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:14:37pm

re: #50 keithgabryelski

reference citation, please. I'd like to read up on this claim.

There's been quite a bit of right-wing and Radical Christian violence in the military, actually:

from Harretz

from SPLC

AC 360

Harper's

82 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:15:13pm

"Failure to comply?"

83 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:15:49pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Timothy McVeigh was also an extreme right winger. I mean, come on. This isn't even controversial. But you're denying it. Why?

84 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:16:23pm

re: #81 ~Fianna

There's been quite a bit of right-wing and Radical Christian violence in the military, actually:

from Harretz

from SPLC

AC 360

Harper's

Plenty of gang violence, too:

[Link: www.army.mil...]

The military is made up of the people of the country - good, bad, and indifferent.

85 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:16:56pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

You mean Eric Robert Rudolph blew up abortion clinics because of Waco?
You mean Rudolph exploded a bomb at the Olympics because of Waco?

While the Oklahoma City bombings were likely motivated by Waco and Ruby Ridge, It's still an example of extreme behavior driven by rhetoric and hatred of their perceived enemy.

My point still stands.

86 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:17:46pm

re: #78 FoolsMate

Yeah he seems to have a history of problem with authority and the email seems influenced by the Bill Sparkman murder. I don't think that's enough to conclude he was "right wing".

Not your typical lefty behaviour, though - is it?

87 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:17:59pm

re: #84 Guanxi88

Plenty of gang violence, too:

[Link: www.army.mil...]

The military is made up of the people of the country - good, bad, and indifferent.

The problem with a lot of the anti-Semitic and radical Christian stuff is that it's protected from up above and is becoming a part of the institutional culture. This is a pretty serious issue that's not getting enough focus at all.

88 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:18:02pm

re: #12 stickman

This kind of stuff is totally criminal. And two wrongs don't make a right etc. but... Thank God no one ever threatened Bush. (said with sarcasm)

It's too bad that the Secret Service does not publicize statistics on threats against the Presidents. It'd be interesting to know if they're trending up or down nowadays.

89 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:18:23pm

re: #72 bloodstar

Rudulph, most definitely a right wing nut.

McVeigh, honestly, I won't put him there. He was a disturbed individual with lots of hatred, and spent some time around militia types, to be sure. I won't go so far as to say he had any kind of defined ideology, however.

90 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:18:40pm

re: #77 Charles


You are correct the guy was a nut. All I am saying is that they both admitted they were "set in motion" by the governments actions in Waco. It was the one key major motivator for them.

[Link: english.pravda.ru...]

"The bombing was in retaliation, carried out by two men, against the government, for the bloody end to a siege near Waco, Texas, two years earlier to the day, in which 82 members of the Branch Davidian sect died."

[Link: history1900s.about.com...]

It was an event not rhetoric that set them upon the path to commit this terrorist act.

Therefor I stand by my previous statement that it was not rhetoric that caused them to do it.

91 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:19:35pm

re: #40 denmeister

Because he's obviously a racist as well.

Eh? Based on what?

92 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:19:47pm

re: #90 lrsshadow

You're not seriously using Pravda as a source, are you?

93 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:19:50pm

Wow. There are actually still people who will try to deny that Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were right wing extremists. Amazing.

94 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:19:58pm

re: #87 ~Fianna

The problem with a lot of the anti-Semitic and radical Christian stuff is that it's protected from up above and is becoming a part of the institutional culture. This is a pretty serious issue that's not getting enough focus at all.

My husband is a long time military officer and a graduate of a US military academy and your accusation is BULLSHIT.

95 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:00pm

Beginning to think we might a Christian Identist or Freeman anti-fed type with this guy, still digging and searching for contrary evidence.

96 wrenchwench  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:04pm

re: #83 Charles

Timothy McVeigh was also an extreme right winger. I mean, come on. This isn't even controversial. But you're denying it. Why?

Barrett Brown's #2:

2. Large groups of like-minded people, even when presented with facts to the contrary, will nonetheless advance false assertions.
97 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:15pm

re: #94 funky chicken

My husband is a long time military officer and a graduate of a US military academy and your accusation is BULLSHIT.

Read the links I posted.

98 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #80 Guanxi88

Congratulations you are sane. What is your point.

I was only trying to point out that the example that there is a connection between rhetoric and Oklahoma bombing is incorrect or at best very week.

99 Drogheda  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:37pm

re: #88 The Sanity Inspector

It's too bad that the Secret Service does not publicize statistics on threats against the Presidents. It'd be interesting to know if they're trending up or down nowadays.

I believe it was reported back around the start of September that threats against the president were up by about 400%.

100 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:20:46pm

re: #87 ~Fianna

The problem with a lot of the anti-Semitic and radical Christian stuff is that it's protected from up above and is becoming a part of the institutional culture. This is a pretty serious issue that's not getting enough focus at all.

I'm reasonably confident that these whack-jobs are being watched. The few times these sob's raise their heads up and try to pass along arms or explosives to their fellows, they get nabbed and stomped pretty hard.

Frankly, the gangs are more worrisome to me. These religio-fascist groups will not amount to much, as they do not enjoy broad support among the troops. The more our troops see the mid-east and the muslim world, the less likely they are to harbor hatred for them.

101 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:21:16pm

re: #95 Thanos

Beginning to think we might a Christian Identist or Freeman anti-fed type with this guy, still digging and searching for contrary evidence.

Quite possibly but I'm not finding anything definitive.

102 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:21:24pm

There's no doubt in my mind that the current climate of sustained, insane outrage in the wingnut-o-sphere is encouraging these kind of nuts to act out.

103 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:21:37pm

re: #93 Charles

Wow. There are actually still people who will try to deny that Eric Rudolph and Timothy McVeigh were right wing extremists. Amazing.

I'm just not willing to hang McVeigh around anybody's neck. He hated a whole spectrum of Americans and American institutions.

Rudolph? No question, right wing fanatic.

104 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:21:50pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

Since when did it become so controversial to condemn death threats to the President?

Late January.

105 bratwurst  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:22:08pm

re: #98 lrsshadow

Ever heard of the Turner Diaries? Tim McVeigh did.

106 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:23:01pm

re: #92 ~Fianna

Ok here how about these other sources. It was the first on a google search.

[Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...]

LA Times

[Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...]

I mean come on guys they planned it for the 2 year anniversary after Waco. This is common knowledge.

107 Bagua  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:23:45pm

re: #106 lrsshadow

What is your point?

108 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:23:57pm

Extremists don't need a fully developed ideology to qualify as extremists.

109 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:24:34pm

Seriously? I am just sitting here in complete and utter amazement. Waco the event itself was one thing, Waco the symbol is something completely different. If you fail to see how Waco the symbol was used in extremist rhetoric then I am not even sure what to say. It was used, just as Ruby Ridge was, in RHETORIC to fuel the Clinton-era version of what we are seeing now. This is exactly why what we are seeing is so scary because it happens now but on a much larger scale. It's just waiting for a martyr.

110 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:24:45pm

re: #97 ~Fianna

Read the links I posted.

Girlfriend, I don't have to read your links. I've lived in the military community for over 15 years. I know senior leadership and have known senior leadership on several installations. My husband is a fast track kinda guy.

Anti-semitism IS NOT ENCOURAGED BY LEADERSHIP. If military officers think somebody is a racist, their ass is in serious trouble. You are smearing an honorable group of people, and you don't know a damn thing about it, aside from "links."

I will protest and will refute your baseless accusations and call them out for what they are. BULLSHIT.

111 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:24:52pm

re: #98 lrsshadow

Congratulations you are sane. What is your point.

I was only trying to point out that the example that there is a connection between rhetoric and Oklahoma bombing is incorrect or at best very week.

You're right - there was no ideological infrastructure in place. Waco happened and McVeigh, all by his lonesome, and without support or encouragement from any sources (and especially not WWCR, the shortwave station based here in the US that carried seditionist, revolutionary, aryan identity, freeman, and conspiratorial stuff in the pre-interwebs days) acted in a complete vacuum, and altogether without warning or provocation.

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:25:36pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

Yes, every time the government fucks up, I like to respond by bombing innocent children. That'll show 'em.

///nice try, though

113 Gus  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:26:22pm

re: #105 bratwurst

Ever heard of the Turner Diaries? Tim McVeigh did.

Glad you brought that up.

The Turner Diaries

The Turner Diaries is a novel written in 1978 by William Luther Pierce (former leader of the white Nationalist organization National Alliance) under the pseudonym "Andrew Macdonald". The Turner Diaries depicts a violent revolution in the United States which leads to the overthrow of the United States federal government, nuclear war, and, ultimately, to the extermination of all Jews and non-whites, leaving an all-white world population of fifty million. The book was called "explicitly racist and anti-Semitic" by the New York Times and has been labeled the "bible of the racist right" by the FBI.

The novel has been associated with a number of real-life violent crimes. Most notably, some have suggested that a scene depicting preparation for the bombing of the FBI national headquarters served as the inspiration for the Oklahoma City bombing in 1995 by Timothy McVeigh, who had promoted the book.

Of course the ideologues Jonah Goldberg and Andrew Breitbart would probably say that it's a "left wing" book.

114 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:26:56pm

re: #100 Guanxi88

I'm reasonably confident that these whack-jobs are being watched. The few times these sob's raise their heads up and try to pass along arms or explosives to their fellows, they get nabbed and stomped pretty hard.

Frankly, the gangs are more worrisome to me. These religio-fascist groups will not amount to much, as they do not enjoy broad support among the troops. The more our troops see the mid-east and the muslim world, the less likely they are to harbor hatred for them.

I hope you're right... but the Weinstein lawsuit that's mentioned on the Haaretz link is pretty disturbing: [Link: militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

MRFF has lots of good stuff on their page about this: [Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

115 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:27:01pm

re: #83 Charles

Timothy McVeigh was also an extreme right winger. I mean, come on. This isn't even controversial. But you're denying it. Why?

Same reason we're supposed to believe Hitler was a lefty. Break the world into two halves, and put all the evil bastards on the left.

116 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:27:41pm

re: #102 Jimmah

There's no doubt in my mind that the current climate of sustained, insane outrage in the wingnut-o-sphere is encouraging these kind of nuts to act out.

I think Dr. Tiller is the 'canary' in the cavern on this one. What is disgusting also is how they just did the 'wink' 'wink' / 'nudge' 'nudge' to justify it. I am actually concerned as to what could happen if this garbage keeps piling on.

117 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:28:13pm

re: #99 Drogheda

I believe it was reported back around the start of September that threats against the president were up by about 400%.

Interesting to know, thanks.

118 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:28:40pm

re: #114 ~Fianna

I hope you're right... but the Weinstein lawsuit that's mentioned on the Haaretz link is pretty disturbing: [Link: militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

MRFF has lots of good stuff on their page about this: [Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

Cripes! It's the CCC people! Run, don't walk away from them.

119 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:30:06pm

re: #110 funky chicken

Girlfriend, I don't have to read your links. I've lived in the military community for over 15 years. I know senior leadership and have known senior leadership on several installations. My husband is a fast track kinda guy.

Anti-semitism IS NOT ENCOURAGED BY LEADERSHIP. If military officers think somebody is a racist, their ass is in serious trouble. You are smearing an honorable group of people, and you don't know a damn thing about it, aside from "links."

I will protest and will refute your baseless accusations and call them out for what they are. BULLSHIT.

I see that this hits a personal level for you and I'm not trying to smear a whole group of people... But this is a problem in our military as well as in our culture and not addressing it isn't going to make it get any better.

120 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:30:15pm

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

Good god guys, please stop being stupid. You know that I am not trying to justify murder or terrorism. All I was trying to point out was it was not a valid connection.

Yes you can say that unless these people were already "primed" with crazy talk and rhetoric. That they would not have done it. I am saying if the government did not complete screw everything up in Waco the action would more in likely never have happened. It is my belief that the corner stone to this action was because of an initial action (Waco) not because of rhetoric.

For the record if you murder or commit terrorism you need to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law irregardless of how bad the government has screwed things up.

121 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:31:23pm

re: #120 lrsshadow

Good god guys, please stop being stupid. You know that I am not trying to justify murder or terrorism. All I was trying to point out was it was not a valid connection.

Yes you can say that unless these people were already "primed" with crazy talk and rhetoric. That they would not have done it. I am saying if the government did not complete screw everything up in Waco the action would more in likely never have happened. It is my belief that the corner stone to this action was because of an initial action (Waco) not because of rhetoric.

For the record if you murder or commit terrorism you need to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law irregardless of how bad the government has screwed things up.

Congratulations. You are sane.

122 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:32:57pm

re: #121 Guanxi88

oh thank god. for a second i though maybe i was losing it. :)

123 tradewind  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:33:22pm

Interestingly enough, according to the US Secret Service, it's not the persons making the overt threats that we should be especially worried about ..
And profiling the assassin doesn't appear helpful, either...

There are three beliefs about assassination that have been widely held and perpetuated in the popular culture: (1) there is a profile of "the assassin," (2) assassinations are the result of mental illness or derangement, and (3) those who make threats pose the greatest risk. These beliefs, however, were largely unsupported by data from the ECSP and do not withstand critical thinking about assassination behaviors. Because these beliefs are untrue, they are now known to be myths.

[Link: www.secretservice.gov...]

124 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:33:55pm

re: #122 lrsshadow

oh thank god. for a second i though maybe i was losing it. :)

I think we just disagree about the effects of provocation and incitement (as I would call it) as part of the equation. Otherwise, I think we're on the same team.

125 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:34:10pm

Charles, did you see this?

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I found the link today over at Chasing Evil.

126 Sergeant Major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:34:27pm

re: #81 ~Fianna

Give me a break... Over a Million Soldiers Active and Reserve and you give 4 examples what percent is that? I can assure you my Soldiers could care less if you believe in _od or not as long as you don't run in a fire fight. How much time have you served? As for me 24 and counting... How many "radicals" are not in the service? As to the gang members when they are caught they are dealt with accordingly (Chaptered)

127 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:34:36pm

re: #118 Guanxi88

Cripes! It's the CCC people! Run, don't walk away from them.

CCC is creepy. I got a death threat from one of them in college when I was active with the pagan student group.

They are a group I'd rather NOT see on military training bases.

128 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:35:36pm

re: #120 lrsshadow

Good god guys, please stop being stupid. You know that I am not trying to justify murder or terrorism. All I was trying to point out was it was not a valid connection.

Yes you can say that unless these people were already "primed" with crazy talk and rhetoric. That they would not have done it. I am saying if the government did not complete screw everything up in Waco the action would more in likely never have happened. It is my belief that the corner stone to this action was because of an initial action (Waco) not because of rhetoric.

For the record if you murder or commit terrorism you need to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law irregardless of how bad the government has screwed things up.

Oy gevalt. You're not getting it. If Waco had not occurred, it would have been because of Ruby Ridge. If it wasn't Ruby Ridge it would have been black helicopters. It did not happen because of the event. It happened because of the ideology that built up in far-right extremist circles in those years. These men did not simply read the news accounts and decide to bomb, they were primed to bomb by political rhetoric and political ideology.

129 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:35:37pm

re: #125 Irish Rose

Charles, did you see this?

[Link: www.splcenter.org...]

I found the link today over at Chasing Evil.

Recc'd that for Charles so he'd see it.

That man has some serious, deepseated problems and I really wish he'd go away.

130 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:35:58pm

re: #74 Charles

I'll just point out that in every single case of a right wing extremist being caught after threatening or doing violence, the posts at LGF about them have been full of people denying that there's any connection at all to the extreme rhetoric being promoted by right wing blogs, talk show hosts, and even politicians.


There's a connection. Like a trigger.
When radio hosts or TV hosts or writers purposely try to rile up the masses up with bombastic rhetoric and outright lies to attack a politician or some other public figure, there is always the chance that it could trigger some delusional whacko into action. So I agree with this..

As the anti-Obama rhetoric keeps getting more and more insane, we can expect to see more incidents like this.

We will. There are lots of whackos out there who only need a bit of encouragement.

131 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:36:34pm

re: #127 ~Fianna

CCC is creepy. I got a death threat from one of them in college when I was active with the pagan student group.

They are a group I'd rather NOT see on military training bases.

Yeah, I think they could be left out. Military discipline can get broken down if you get a cult in there.

A pagan, eh? Not one myself (Hebrew) but tremendous respect for them.

132 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:37:18pm

re: #124 Guanxi88

yah I am sure. I think the worst thing that could happen at this point would be a major blunder by the government where many innocents died a kin to what happened in Waco.

I have to agree that the rhetoric is unfortunately setting the stage and if a catalyst event happens we could see some nut jobs doing some stupid stuff.

133 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:37:56pm

re: #110 funky chicken

Girlfriend, I don't have to read your links. I've lived in the military community for over 15 years. I know senior leadership and have known senior leadership on several installations. My husband is a fast track kinda guy.

Anti-semitism IS NOT ENCOURAGED BY LEADERSHIP. If military officers think somebody is a racist, their ass is in serious trouble. You are smearing an honorable group of people, and you don't know a damn thing about it, aside from "links."

I will protest and will refute your baseless accusations and call them out for what they are. BULLSHIT.

FC, I don't believe Fianna means to claim all senior leadership in the military is antisemitic, or anything like that.

It is true that the military has a big problem with antisemites and white supremacists joining up. This isn't the military's fault. The leadership is doing what it can to get rid of them. But for many years now white supremacist groups have been actively encouraging their members to sign up to get explosives training and weapons training.
Here is some information on it:
NeoNazis are in the Army Now

FBI Report: White Supremacists in Military Pose Threat to National Security

A Homeland Security report called "Rightwing Extremism: Current Economic and Political Climate Fueling Resurgence in Radicalization and Recruitment," states:

"The willingness of a small percentage of military personnel to join extremist groups during the 1990s because they were disgruntled, disillusioned, or suffering from the psychological effects of war is being replicated today."

Here is a 2005 Department of Defense report on it:

Effectively, the military has a 'don't ask, don't tell' policy pertaining to extremism. If individuals can perform satisfactorily, without making their extremist opinions overt … they are likely to be able to complete their contracts."

This isn't some lefty anti-military fantasy, unless you think the Department of Defense is a lefty anti-military organisation.

134 Oh no...Sand People!  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:38:57pm

re: #113 Gus 802

Of course the ideologues Jonah Goldberg and Andrew Breitbart would probably say that it's a "left wing" book.

I also guarantee that in the 'all white utopia' they are so desperately wanting they will begin to persecute the redheads...

Idiots.

135 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:39:18pm

re: #134 Oh no...Sand People!

I also guarantee that in the 'all white utopia' they are so desperately wanting they will begin to persecute the redheads...

Idiots.

Ginger kids, man. Creepy.

136 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:39:32pm

re: #133 iceweasel

have you ever been in the military?

How about you ~Fianna ?

137 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:39:37pm

re: #120 lrsshadow

Good god guys, please stop being stupid. You know that I am not trying to justify murder or terrorism. All I was trying to point out was it was not a valid connection.

Yes you can say that unless these people were already "primed" with crazy talk and rhetoric. That they would not have done it. I am saying if the government did not complete screw everything up in Waco the action would more in likely never have happened. It is my belief that the corner stone to this action was because of an initial action (Waco) not because of rhetoric.

For the record if you murder or commit terrorism you need to be arrested and prosecuted to the full extent of the law irregardless of how bad the government has screwed things up.

It doesn't matter what the government did or didn't do in Waco, whether it was right or wrong, fucked up or slipped up, these sort of people can be triggered by almost anything they consider up setting to their little world of them against the heathens.

These people were primed" from their ill-informed Covenant theology. These people were primed by their complete lack of understanding world history, trying to take on the mantle of "race" (British-Israelism) that doesn't exist and they couldn't possibly belong to, these people are primed from a defective reading of a mythical book (The Bible) and in short, these people are unstable outcasts of society.

Any actions these fruit cakes believe should happen will be fueled and triggered from what ever imagined in justice they conjure up at any given time.

You neither understand the actual mindset of these people nor do you know what motivates them. Take it from me, someone who has dealt with Covanent groups, Yahwehist, lost tribe fanatics and so forth. You are wrong.

138 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:40:01pm

re: #134 Oh no...Sand People!

I also guarantee that in the 'all white utopia' they are so desperately wanting they will begin to persecute the redheads...

Idiots.

Only the red-headed stepchildren...

139 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:40:02pm

re: #135 Guanxi88

Ginger kids, man. Creepy.

Hey!
Don't you be dissin' gingers, now...

140 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:40:36pm

re: #139 Irish Rose

Hey!
Don't you be dissin' gingers, now...

Day-Walker!

141 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:40:52pm

re: #35 joe g.

Count me in the camp that's worried about impressionable sane people, too. It's one thing when its some guy on a soapbox in the middle of union square. It's another when that wacko is given a couple hours a day on cable TV and another couple hours on national radio.

And cannot be distanced by members of right wing leadership without intense negative consequences. That's the problem. These people have a hold on the leadership of the opposition party, and that's what's scary to me.

142 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:41:47pm

re: #136 lrsshadow

have you ever been in the military?

How about you ~Fianna ?

Do you think I need to have been in the military to read and comprehend the Department of Defense's report on the military?

Fuck off, troll.

143 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:41:51pm

OK here's a possible hit on John Gimbel. A San Francisco Indymedia page. Note to newbies. Always look through Indymedia first when trying to dig up old stuff from kooks.

Perhaps Mr. Bush can be peacefully arrested, as an alternated,and the whole nation go forth on a new note ala (portions of) S.F.'s cry for a rebirthing, here.

To that purpose, I, John Gimbel, remit to arresting officers a document I have reworked, feeling same was needed, that
should give to Mr. Bush more rights in his own arrest than
he ever imparted to others (or at least wake this place a
bit more to the direction needed on something to do with
"rights.")

THE NEW MIRANDA: (by John Gimbel):

144 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:43:41pm

re: #143 mich-again

OK here's a possible hit on John Gimbel. A San Francisco Indymedia page. Note to newbies. Always look through Indymedia first when trying to dig up old stuff from kooks.

Reads like about what you'd expect. I peg him as a sovereign citizen type, freeman, maybe, with definite schizophrenic tendencies. And, sadly, a type most likely to be encountered, in this manifestation, on the right. (Bush he wanted to arrest; Obama, otherwise)

145 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:44:09pm

Does anybody know what the nutjob meant by "failure to comply?"

Failure to comply with what?

146 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:45:20pm

re: #126 Sergeant Major

Give me a break... Over a Million Soldiers Active and Reserve and you give 4 examples what percent is that? I can assure you my Soldiers could care less if you believe in _od or not as long as you don't run in a fire fight. How much time have you served? As for me 24 and counting... How many "radicals" are not in the service? As to the gang members when they are caught they are dealt with accordingly (Chaptered)

The gang members are a huge problem, too.

And I'm glad to hear from people who are active that it's not as wide-spread as some of the organizations working against it make it seem.

But I still see antisemitism as a growing problem in our culture and that's going to be reflected in the military. Especially with the large (and obviously required in the armed services) culture of conformity, groups like CCC being active on bases makes me (as a non-Christian) really, really uncomfortable.

Also, the fact that the Air Force has promoted out and out hate speech from the Brigitte Gabriel of American Congress for Truth at the JSAF. I'm trying to find a video of the speech (it was broadcast on CSPAN)... it was pretty disturbing and included statements like Muslims can not be loyal Americans.

I'm not happy that my government is sponsoring speakers like that.

147 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:45:50pm

re: #106 lrsshadow

Ok here how about these other sources. It was the first on a google search.

[Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...]

LA Times

[Link: pqasb.pqarchiver.com...]

I mean come on guys they planned it for the 2 year anniversary after Waco. This is common knowledge.

A complete red herring...

148 FoolsMate  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:45:54pm

re: #145 funky chicken

Does anybody know what the nutjob meant by "failure to comply?"

Failure to comply with what?

He had asked Obama to fix his parking ticket.
/

149 fsjeffrey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:45:57pm

Re: 26 Charles

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Try to be a little kinder to those who truly care about our country.

Incidently, that wacko who wanted to kill the president should be locked up for a long time.

But please, without any proof, no one should imply that he was influenced by any right-wing TV or blogs. That is not only unfair but it is irresponsible.

150 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:46:15pm

re: #133 iceweasel

Fianna said that radicals and anti-semites were encouraged and protected from above.

Do those DOD reports appear to encourage or protect extremists from above?

I guarandamntee you that military leadership doesn't like or want extremist lunatics in the ranks.

Just like they don't want gang-bangers in the ranks.

151 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:46:37pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Got tired of defending Rush Limbaugh in the other threads?

152 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:46:54pm

re: #142 iceweasel

Do you think I need to have been in the military to read and comprehend the Department of Defense's report on the military?

Fuck off, troll.

There has been a whole lot of apologists for the extreme this or that today on LGF, and in the end, when presented with facts, they run. FYI as in lrsshadow, who has signed off.

153 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:47:21pm

re: #90 lrsshadow

You are correct the guy was a nut. All I am saying is that they both admitted they were "set in motion" by the governments actions in Waco. It was the one key major motivator for them.

[Link: english.pravda.ru...]

"The bombing was in retaliation, carried out by two men, against the government, for the bloody end to a siege near Waco, Texas, two years earlier to the day, in which 82 members of the Branch Davidian sect died."

[Link: history1900s.about.com...]

It was an event not rhetoric that set them upon the path to commit this terrorist act.

Therefor I stand by my previous statement that it was not rhetoric that caused them to do it.

You are linking to PRAVDA?
Good lord.

154 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:47:37pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

fsjeffrey

Karma: 0
Registered since: Sep 18, 2004 at 4:30 pm
(Logged in)

No. of comments posted: 178
No. of links posted: 0

155 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:47:42pm

re: #145 funky chicken

Does anybody know what the nutjob meant by "failure to comply?"

Failure to comply with what?

I'm guessing that means Obama's failure to comply with the will of the people or abide by the constitution. It's common rhetoric these days.

156 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:47:44pm

re: #148 FoolsMate

He had asked Obama to fix his parking ticket.
/

LOL.

I thought maybe he's a birther?

157 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:48:30pm

re: #155 Killgore Trout

I'm guessing that means Obama's failure to comply with the will of the people or abide by the constitution. It's common rhetoric these days.

Yeah, all of a sudden, we've got constitutional experts going around with rifles. Yep, no problems here.

158 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:48:31pm

re: #156 funky chicken

Heh me too. I thought "10:1 nirther reference".

159 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:48:43pm

re: #142 iceweasel

No just as one who has been in the military it gets a little annoying that people who haven't served like to say all kinds of junk about the military.

The military has recognized this problem and takes great steps to ensure that radicals are screened out of the military.

160 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:49:38pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Re: 26 Charles

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Try to be a little kinder to those who truly care about our country.

Incidently, that wacko who wanted to kill the president should be locked up for a long time.

But please, without any proof, no one should imply that he was influenced by any right-wing TV or blogs. That is not only unfair but it is irresponsible.

When you get tired of high taxes, you do not comport with neo-Nazis, you do not start making racist comments about the President (who I don't agree a bit with) and the First Lady, you don't make death threats you don't talk about revolution and you don't post comments on blog SUPPORTING THOSE SORT OF ACTIONS...

(er, well, my mistake, I guess you do).

161 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:49:42pm

re: #144 Guanxi88

In that post John Gimbel used the nic saving_public_wry_un. Here is another post by that user, now I can't say for if Gimbel wrote this stuff, but it sounds consistent with the whackiness we know he said. And he did list his name and e-maill addy in the last link for that user. BUSH BEGS JUDICIARY TO ELECTROCUTE HIMSELF

For
Bush to have said they had WMD, then killed thousands of Iraq people and
destroyed all governmental structures in Iraq (nation on nation version) is precisely the micro-scaled version of a cop walking up to a bystander, planting marijuana on him, or falsely accusing same of having some on him when he doesn't, then pulling the trigger 6 times to his head. (The person
on person version.) Precisely, please. Precisely. No more "faulty intelligence" on this one.
162 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:50:10pm

re: #109 enoughalready

Seriously? I am just sitting here in complete and utter amazement. Waco the event itself was one thing, Waco the symbol is something completely different. If you fail to see how Waco the symbol was used in extremist rhetoric then I am not even sure what to say. It was used, just as Ruby Ridge was, in RHETORIC to fuel the Clinton-era version of what we are seeing now. This is exactly why what we are seeing is so scary because it happens now but on a much larger scale. It's just waiting for a martyr.

This.
(as they say on FARK)

163 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:50:23pm

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

It doesn't matter what the government did or didn't do in Waco, whether it was right or wrong, fucked up or slipped up, these sort of people can be triggered by almost anything they consider up setting to their little world of them against the heathens.

These are the same people who willingly buy into paranoid conspiracy theories. They need little to set off their mindset from rhetoric to action. All they feed their wormy minds is more fear and paranoia, and when the fear mongers are called out on this rancid product their mainstreaming, the kooks get apoplectic. It makes me think people like Gretchen don't want to make the connection.

Great post, Walter.

164 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:50:32pm

re: #137 Walter L. Newton

ok well I guess we disagree then. I think Waco was about 80-90% contributor to the motivation of the action taken by these idiots and 10-20% was from rhetoric.

You obviously don't agree. thats ok with me.

165 Guanxi88  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:50:45pm

re: #161 mich-again

In that post John Gimbel used the nic saving_public_wry_un. Here is another post by that user, now I can't say for if Gimbel wrote this stuff, but it sounds consistent with the whackiness we know he said. And he did list his name and e-maill addy in the last link for that user. BUSH BEGS JUDICIARY TO ELECTROCUTE HIMSELF

I retract the previous diagnosis. Nut-log, pure and simple - ready, willing, and able, to do any damned thing that enters his deranged mind, and open for suggestions.

166 dugmartsch  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:52:07pm

re: #132 lrsshadow

yah I am sure. I think the worst thing that could happen at this point would be a major blunder by the government where many innocents died a kin to what happened in Waco.

I have to agree that the rhetoric is unfortunately setting the stage and if a catalyst event happens we could see some nut jobs doing some stupid stuff.

Like murdering abortion doctors or killing census workers.

167 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:52:07pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Re: 26 Charles

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

No, I don't think that at all. The tea parties are organized and run by outright extremists, many of whom are birthers and Ron Paul fanatics, and nutjobs of all kinds.

Not every person who goes to a tea party demonstration is an extremist, obviously. But there are a LOT of nutjobs who show up at these events, and nobody is renouncing them.

Try to be a little kinder to those who truly care about our country.

Why would I be "kinder" to Birthers, John Birchers, and Ron Paul followers?

168 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:52:33pm

re: #146 ~Fianna

Fianna

If you haven't been in the military you just need to stop, because you really don't know what you are talking about.

169 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:52:35pm

The mother lode.. This one is a beauty. Piss or get off the message board.

23. by saving_public_wry_un on 3/1/2007 4:52:29 PM
Hey, Mark is one fast guy! He and guys like Brent Flynn are going places! And guess what?! I just went someplace myself. And after that I had to create a depostion that took 14 days to explain what I had written, which I just gave to the DA on Monday. It was on a local message board associated with my small town. Felony, of course. A coupla semi-colons in the 'right place' is roughly equivalent to knocking physical holes in the Pentagon in case you're now just discovering... Circum-tele-cision 'advisors' can meet you at your doorstep! There were 8 squad cars in front of my house waiting for me a few days after the post had begun to unearth to the consciousness of the loco (erm..meant 'local,' of course) populace! Does anybody have any tips on how one can loosen teeth and draw the blood of local law enforcement and judicial bodies using a civil suit? (Mark Motz, your writing is very, very good!)
170 Honorary Yooper  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:52:50pm

re: #161 mich-again

Complete fricking nutjob. Comfirms my earlier analysis that Gimbel is of the anti-government variety of nutjob.

171 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:53:50pm

re: #133 iceweasel

This isn't some lefty anti-military fantasy, unless you think the Department of Defense is a lefty anti-military organisation.

Well stated, Ms Ice.

172 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:54:33pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Re: 26 Charles

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Yes, I think that they are afraid of all those things. However, I think these people are misinformed and misguided. I also think they fail to understand the true nature of representative democracy, or how their government works. I think they are being deliberately mislead to fear and react against things solely because they are coming out of a Democrat's administration. And I think that some of them, although not all, are not all that bright.

Also, the Founders 'gave' us nothing, although they contributed mightily to their country. We, the people, hold our rights as a self-evident inheritance of nature, and we conduct our government according to law which we agree upon, as well as that which we inherit.

(OK, I'm being persnickety. The Founders can have 'given' us stuff. Comments on the tea party crowd stand.)

173 Irish Rose  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:54:50pm

Time to wrap up in a warm fuzzy blanket, eat some dinner and watch the news.
L8R.

174 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:55:33pm

re: #170 Honorary Yooper

He could be and anarchist, pissed off marxist, or a Paulian/Alex Jones Libertarian.

175 keithgabryelski  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:55:50pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Where were these people when President George W. Bush was creating large government organizations, increasing the power of government, and generally being very liberal with the idea of small government?

Basically, it looks like the problem is the word "Democrats" not what a president says or actually does.

176 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:56:21pm

re: #164 lrsshadow

ok well I guess we disagree then. I think Waco was about 80-90% contributor to the motivation of the action taken by these idiots and 10-20% was from rhetoric.

You obviously don't agree. thats ok with me.

No, you have no proof of what you are saying, it is evident that you don't know the actual way that certain people think and rationalize, the type of people that McVeigh was learning from, all you have is you opinion that is not based in any fact.

You "think" Waco was. You don't know, evidently or you would have said you "know." Knowledge and belief is two different things and you come here trying to prove unfounded facts with your belief. That doesn't work in the real world.

I know the people that McVeigh ran with, I know what triggers them and what doesn't trigger them. It can be something as simple as a change in the tax laws to some imagined new world order.

Unless you have facts to support what you are saying, your opinion, at least to me, is worthless.

177 bluecheese  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:57:51pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Re: 26 Charles

government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

What's with the "founding fathers" talking point?

Yesterday, it was asked what the founding fathers thing was about, and the poster just mumbled something about 'van jones' and blathered on incoherently.

Is this projection?

Can I see the memo?

178 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:57:56pm

re: #176 Walter L. Newton

Well buddy not really, I spent two years in the military training soldiers on terrorism and guerrilla warfare. So yes I do know a little something on the subject thank you very much.

179 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:58:20pm

re: #75 lrsshadow

Not true they were actually motivated by the governments complete failure at Waco. Nice try though.

Well, no. Although McVeigh used Waco as a handy hook to hang his overt actions on, he got his start years earlier, and was motivated by the KKK and by a host of white supremacist groups. Waco just gave him an excuse to put a plan in motion that he hoped would trigger a race war and resulting anarchy into which his white supremacist brothers could step and assert authority. But it wasn't his underlying motivation.

180 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:58:28pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Try to be a little kinder to those who truly care about our country.

One of those thought it was funny to "pretend" to direct his truck at me and my little dog this morning when we were out walking, then laughed and laughed when we jumped out of the way. My only "conversation" with this man was a couple of weeks ago when I was out walking and happened to be wearing a pre-election Obama T-shirt. He shot me the bird and called me a... name I won't repeat.

Sorry, I'm not feeling kindly.

181 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:59:26pm

re: #150 funky chicken

Fianna said that radicals and anti-semites were encouraged and protected from above.

Do those DOD reports appear to encourage or protect extremists from above?

I guarandamntee you that military leadership doesn't like or want extremist lunatics in the ranks.

Just like they don't want gang-bangers in the ranks.

There's above and there's above. The DOD is a long way from the average private's chain of command.

It's the wedge strategy that a lot of these nut-right groups are using and they're targeting both new recruits and mid-level officers trying to make a culture of extreme Christianity out of the military. There's a lot of keyword phrases and whatnot that you can find on base ministry websites about "the Great Commission" and turning soldiers in to government-paid proselytizers.

It's against military regulations, but it's still going on and there's no way that it could happen without leadership support.

182 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 2:59:38pm

re: #179 SixDegrees

good point I will give that to you.

183 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:00:26pm

re: #178 lrsshadow

Well buddy not really, I spent two years in the military training soldiers on terrorism and guerrilla warfare. So yes I do know a little something on the subject thank you very much.

You haven't given me any facts Ranger. You get/give any training on Covenant groups. For someone that "knows" so much, you haven't stated one single fact, you link to propaganda, and come back with "I think" which carries about as much force as "I shit."

Give me some facts. What do you really know?

184 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:01:00pm

re: #144 Guanxi88

He's also got a beef against insurance companies, and he's almost definitely a raging racist if one of the PDF's I've stumbled across is genuine. (much too virulent to post here, emailed to Charles. )

Here's the officer harrassment case from 2006:

[Link: www.fearnotlaw.com...]

185 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:01:25pm

re: #143 mich-again

OK here's a possible hit on John Gimbel. A San Francisco Indymedia page. Note to newbies. Always look through Indymedia first when trying to dig up old stuff from kooks.

So he hated Bush and now hates Obama?

Electrocution fantasies for Bush, gunshot fantasies for Obama. He's certainly progressed though, unless he used to think it would be cool to kill the Bush girls while GW watched.

Indymedia is a really lovely place, huh?

186 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:02:23pm

re: #181 ~Fianna

ok I have tried to be polite and nice, but you are an assclown and you need to just shut up and go away.

I would guess that not only have you never served in the military, you probably don't very many veterans either.

187 mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:02:56pm

re: #185 funky chicken

So he hated Bush and now hates Obama?

The anti-government kooks hate whoever is in office because Republicans and Democrats are the same thing.

188 Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:03:22pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

Re: 26 Charles

Don't you think that the so-called "tea party fanatics" are mainly made up of people who are terrified by the direction that the president is taking our country. They're afraid of higher taxes and the out of control spending and a government that appears to want to take over virtually everything that our Founding Fathers thought they were giving to the people.

Try to be a little kinder to those who truly care about our country.

Then where in the FRAK were these people who were sooo concerned about the deficits and the direction our country went at points in the last 25 years?

I'd have more compassion for the groups if they'd stop talking in bullet point and actually had any real comprehension of the consequences of their ideas.

I've said it before, but maybe not here, Rhetoric and talking points gets people to listen to your radio show, and watch your TV programs, but pragmatism and realism will get you the White House.

In fact that's one of the biggest issues the libertarian party has faced. Their efforts to remain ideologically pure has shown me that they have no interest in winning a political contest, and instead are more interested in throwing popcorn from the sidelines.

Trust me, get these people who are so concerned to come up with solutions that actually are longer in detail than the latest power point slide and I'll take the time to listen. 'til then, they're just wasting their time and mine.

189 SixDegrees  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:03:55pm

re: #164 lrsshadow

ok well I guess we disagree then. I think Waco was about 80-90% contributor to the motivation of the action taken by these idiots and 10-20% was from rhetoric.

You obviously don't agree. thats ok with me.

McVeigh had a long, long history of escalating obsession with the white supremacist movement and a variety of related groups for years before Waco, during which time he became increasingly strident and agitated over what he viewed as inaction on the part of the groups he associated with. Waco was just a convenient excuse he used to justify his actions, which were well on their way to fruition by the time Waco occurred.

190 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:04:46pm

re: #186 lrsshadow

No need to call people names just because you don't agree with what they are saying.

191 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:05:16pm

re: #189 SixDegrees

McVeigh had a long, long history of escalating obsession with the white supremacist movement and a variety of related groups for years before Waco, during which time he became increasingly strident and agitated over what he viewed as inaction on the part of the groups he associated with. Waco was just a convenient excuse he used to justify his actions, which were well on their way to fruition by the time Waco occurred.

Agree. That's the point I have been trying to make up thread. I think you sais it a little better than I did.

192 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:05:22pm

re: #183 Walter L. Newton

I am not a Ranger.

I was in for 9 years and I did some stuff. Lets just say that I am not a complete idiot and leave it at that.

193 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:05:43pm

re: #150 funky chicken

Fianna said that radicals and anti-semites were encouraged and protected from above.

Do those DOD reports appear to encourage or protect extremists from above?

I guarandamntee you that military leadership doesn't like or want extremist lunatics in the ranks.

Just like they don't want gang-bangers in the ranks.

They (and the FBI report) mention how the recruitment guidelines have been loosened because of the need for troops, and how the recruitment officers are simply not trained well enough on identifying extremists.

It's not so much that they're being protected from above as that there is a culture of looking the other way. It's a growing problem.

194 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:06:47pm

re: #192 lrsshadow

I am not a Ranger.

I was in for 9 years and I did some stuff. Lets just say that I am not a complete idiot and leave it at that.

Ok, your not a complete idiot... (like shooting fish...)

195 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:07:08pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

He could be and anarchist, pissed off marxist, or a Paulian/Alex Jones Libertarian.

And yeah, you probably could find him attending Tea Parties. I'm not sure that makes him right wing.

Of course the mainstream conservative folks will suffer guilt by association with nuts like this if they aren't willing to condemn the Paulnut/Alex Jones folks. I haven't seen any indication of their willingness to issue such condemnation, so...shrug.

I've pretty well decided that I'm looking to Blue Dog type democrats to support for a while myself, so it's not a real problem for me.

196 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:07:22pm

re: #186 lrsshadow

ok I have tried to be polite and nice, but you are an assclown and you need to just shut up and go away.

Remind me, who made you the Thread Police? Are you in charge of accounts here at LGF?

197 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:07:28pm

re: #190 enoughalready

No need to call people names just because you don't agree with what they are saying.

yah, it just gets quite boorish how somany people are always trying to make up some BS about the military. It just sucks.

198 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:07:43pm

There is also the growing number of private "security consulting" firms, ala Blackwater, who are training serious numbers of people in high-tech warfare. Who is watching them?

199 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:08:24pm

re: #198 allegro

Do you know anything about blackwater?

200 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:08:33pm

re: #196 iceweasel

Remind me, who made you the Thread Police? Are you in charge of accounts here at LGF?

I was wondering the same thing. I don't blame you for questioning his statement, we all know you are the thread police :)

201 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:08:41pm

re: #185 funky chicken

So he hated Bush and now hates Obama?

Electrocution fantasies for Bush, gunshot fantasies for Obama. He's certainly progressed though, unless he used to think it would be cool to kill the Bush girls while GW watched.

Indymedia is a really lovely place, huh?

There's a lot of crossover between extremist left and extremist right ant-government types. They pretty much just hate the government no matter who is in power.

202 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:09:17pm

re: #199 lrsshadow

Do you know anything about blackwater?

A bit.

203 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:09:19pm

re: #174 Killgore Trout

He could be and anarchist, pissed off marxist, or a Paulian/Alex Jones Libertarian.

I think he's religious, racist, and very anti government. That's my opinion from my surf, not going to back it up yet.

204 Danny  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:09:24pm

The balloon kid was found and is OK (CNN reports).

205 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:09:45pm

re: #197 lrsshadow

yah, it just gets quite boorish how somany people are always trying to make up some BS about the military. It just sucks.

Agree. Or make up BS about what motivated Timothy when they have no clue to the dynamics behind the groups and people he hung with.

206 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:09:54pm

re: #168 lrsshadow

Fianna

If you haven't been in the military you just need to stop, because you really don't know what you are talking about.

I cordially invite you to piss off...

207 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:10pm

re: #181 ~Fianna


It's against military regulations, but it's still going on and there's no way that it could happen without leadership support.

BULLSHIT, unless you believe military officers and non-commissioned officers are somehow omnicient.

I guarantee you there is ZERO "leadership support" for extremism and racism in the military.

You frankly should be ashamed of yourself for continuing to repeat such a stupid, baseless, and nasty accusation toward a group of people you don't know and have never interacted with.

208 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:13pm

re: #203 Thanos

You forgot "insane".

209 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:17pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

I was wondering the same thing. I don't blame you for questioning his statement, we all know you are the thread police :)

Nah, just a Radiohead fan. :)

Karma Police

Youtube Video
210 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:17pm

re: #164 lrsshadow

ok well I guess we disagree then. I think Waco was about 80-90% contributor to the motivation of the action taken by these idiots and 10-20% was from rhetoric.

You obviously don't agree. thats ok with me.

Rhetoric.
I don't think that word means what you think it means.

In a (very) narrow sense, you can claim to be right, or not wrong, as you do in this post.
However, most people here, and indeed, most people everywhere, when talking about the "mood" of the country and the "Rhetoric" coming from far right quarters mean the accumulation of attitudes, statements (your rhetoric), events and tea-parties, pundits, bloggers and commenter's on blogs that point to a heightened number of angry, vitriolic and secessionist groups of people, some of whom are truly disturbed, and that may well act on their anger and perceived disenfranchisement.
Now, why is that hard to understand?

211 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:24pm

re: #204 Danny

The balloon kid was found and is OK (CNN reports).

Thanks kindly for letting us know.

212 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:10:34pm

re: #193 iceweasel

What your basing this on? Your gut feelings perhaps? You just made an accusation against a whole lot of military folk. Do you have anything to back it up with?

213 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:11:13pm

When Michael Steele criticized Rush Limbaugh, then backed down with an abject apology, I thought "WTF?"

Now I know why. Even at LGF the pigheaded and relentless Limbaugh defenders have come out of the woodwork. And my hate mail for this subject is through the roof.

214 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:11:24pm

re: #208 enoughalready

That sort of defines the extreme fringes we are talking about though doesn't it?

215 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:11:51pm

re: #207 funky chicken

Thank you my point exactly.

216 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:12:47pm

re: #201 iceweasel

There's a lot of crossover between extremist left and extremist right ant-government types. They pretty much just hate the government no matter who is in power.

I knew a lot of those folks when I was active with the Libertarian Party. The tinfoil hat is strong in them.

217 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:13:20pm

re: #212 lrsshadow

What your basing this on? Your gut feelings perhaps? You just made an accusation against a whole lot of military folk. Do you have anything to back it up with?

What, the FBI report, the DHS report, and the Department of Defense reports I linked weren't enough for you?

218 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:13:54pm

re: #217 iceweasel

What, the FBI report, the DHS report, and the Department of Defense reports I linked weren't enough for you?

You didn't link to Pravda.

219 The Sanity Inspector  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:13:58pm

re: #204 Danny

The balloon kid was found and is OK (CNN reports).

Whew!

220 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:14:49pm

re: #204 Danny

The balloon kid was found and is OK (CNN reports).

I'm getting very strong "publicity stunt" readings from this one.

221 Rascal One  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:15:11pm

John Gimbel isn't a Blue Dog Democrat?

222 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:15:57pm

re: #200 Walter L. Newton

I was wondering the same thing. I don't blame you for questioning his statement, we all know you are the thread dream police :)

FTFY ;-P

/Cheap Trick

223 Danny  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:15:59pm

re: #220 Charles

I'm getting very strong "publicity stunt" readings from this one.

Publicity for who (what)?

224 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:16:01pm

re: #220 Charles

I'm getting very strong "publicity stunt" readings from this one.

If that's the case, I hope that the police, military and assorted other groups who spent a lot of time, money and gas to look for the kid send them a bill with a whole lot of zeros.

225 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:16:22pm

re: #220 Charles

I'm getting very strong "publicity stunt" readings from this one.

That came up on KOA about 45 minutes ago, before they found him. A reporter who knows the family from some other media events, indicated it might be possible that the family may be a bit of publicity hounds.

The family has appeared on "Wife Swap" a reality show.

226 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:17:02pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That came up on KOA about 45 minutes ago, before they found him. A reporter who knows the family from some other media events, indicated it might be possible that the family may be a bit of publicity hounds.

The family has appeared on "Wife Swap" a reality show.

And this is why I don't have a TV.

227 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:17:03pm

re: #218 Walter L. Newton

You didn't link to Pravda.

I hadn't finished reading today's copy of it yet. Someone else in my undisclosed location is using it.
Soros really needs to get on the ball here and get us our own individual copies. Communalism is all fine and dandy when it's free love; not so much when it's sharing our papers though.

228 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:17:13pm

re: #172 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes, I think that they are afraid of all those things. However, I think these people are misinformed and misguided. I also think they fail to understand the true nature of representative democracy, or how their government works. I think they are being deliberately mislead to fear and react against things solely because they are coming out of a Democrat's administration. And I think that some of them, although not all, are not all that bright.

It's a failing of the education system that we don't teach American children proper civics. Many people fail to understand the First Amendment, or why our Founders established the Constitution with Checks and Balances. Hell, many of these people seem to forget the census is in the Constitution!

This actually has a wide scope in that we have people disregarding the Constitution by pushing creationism into public schools, pushing revisionist history into public schools, and thinking a business decision by an investment group to exclude one person is a violation of that person's first amendment rights- just to name a few. We have a serious problem with civics education in this country when elected officials can't pass a basic civics test. It's really the unnoticed crisis in this country, and it's getting a bit alarming.

229 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:18:16pm

re: #227 iceweasel

I hadn't finished reading today's copy of it yet. Someone else in my undisclosed location is using it.
Soros really needs to get on the ball here and get us our own individual copies. Communalism is all fine and dandy when it's free love; not so much when it's sharing our papers though.

lrsshadow linked to an English Pravda article up thread to prove one of his "points."

230 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:18:37pm

re: #142 iceweasel

Reading your numerous posts, you do display the ability to read and grasp the concepts in the text.

But that's not the reason why many of us ask if you have served in the military.
It allows those of us whom have served to gain a better understanding of your depth of knowledge concerning the topic.

While I might watch NCIS regularly, I don't presume to have as deep of an understanding of the techniques shown as a real Agent might have.

While my wife, based on her employment may frequently read fine medical journals may have a higher then average understanding of medicine, she understands that when two Doctors are talking in her presence, that her understanding of the subject may be somewhat lacking.

When you talk to the subject of these few nit-wits, and the implications of their presence in the military, it may be beneficial for you to listen to those of us who are actually dealing with the situation.

Not having served in the military is not a negative characteristic, and should not be implied to be taken that way. Heck, if you are an American, or residing legally in our country, I am proud to have served both you and our nation. However, just like all areas in life, some of us speak directly from experience, some of us read about it in reports.
There is a common misconception out there that members of the military are perfect in every way.
The fact is, we are not.

I have personally either been involved in removing, or witnessed the removal from service the following:
Pedophiles
Drug users
Alcoholics
Rapists
Spouse abusers
Thieves
Murderers
Supremacists

231 Killgore Trout  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:18:43pm

re: #203 Thanos

I think he's religious, racist, and very anti government. That's my opinion from my surf, not going to back it up yet.

Thanks for doing some digging. Do you think he's the same historical revisionist who wrote those books about the Marshal plan?

232 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:19:00pm

re: #210 doubter4444

I understand your point.

My point; it is apparent that in all radical movements a justification catalyst is needed in order to gain the "moral high ground". Extremest groups typically use a view of some Utopian ideal mixed with a real world event involving loss of life. With out some type of injustice they cannot justify to themselves or others that their cause is just thereby leading to actions they would not normally do.

233 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:19:44pm

re: #178 lrsshadow

Well buddy not really, I spent two years in the military training soldiers on terrorism and guerrilla warfare. So yes I do know a little something on the subject thank you very much.

Wow, a whole two years as, what sounds like a contractor.
You are some paper tirger, yes sir.

I've worked with he brass for over a decade, and know service people from Gunnies to Generals.
You don't know jack.
Everyone of them, as proud as they are say the services can and will get better. As good as they are, the net lets some through, particularly during a war, where recruiting is essential, and the system is loath to discharge.
Just because there is room for improvement, does not mean it's not good, or excellent, it means it needs to be monitored and improved to remain and get better.

234 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:19:53pm

How far up the chain of command does support for religious extremism go in the military? It's a good question. And I don't know the answer.

But it wasn't very long ago that it went all the way to the top.

[Link: www.gq.com...]

235 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:20:16pm

OT -

So, about an hour ago, I walk out of the house to go across the road to get the mail. I don't have my glasses on, so my far away sight is blurry, I'm sort of looking down on the ground, and when I get to the mailbox, I look up to grab the mail, and about 15 feet away are four deer, looking at me.

They didn't have glasses on either. I swear, it's like a petting zoo up here sometimes.

236 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:21:33pm

re: #217 iceweasel

Yah because when i read them they didn't prove your point. In fact it is even stated in one of the reports;

"The Recruiting Commands and USMEPCOM have implemented many screening
procedures that have the effect of detecting and deterring applicants and recruits who are
enlisting with disloyal and hostile intentions. These procedures include identification
checking and verification, criminal background checks, checks of the FBI’s terrorist file
(and thus checks of the Terrorist Screening Center databases), extremist tattoo screening,
numerous questionnaires and interviews, credit checks, and, when appropriate, security
clearance background checks."

It would appear that the military is actually taking many steps to virtually eliminate the possibility you say is happening more frequently with support form those who are in the military.

237 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:21:57pm

Anecdotal, but I know one ex-marine(UK). Happens to be a frothing nutball extremist who believes in just about every conspiracy theory in the book.

And he's now a Glenn Beck/ Alex Jones fan too. Somehow I don't think that is going to be good for him. Last time I heard him talk he was ranting about "getting ready" for the coming chaos - ie arming himself etc.

238 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:21:59pm

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

They were probly thinkin' "Thank goodness he doesn't have his glasses on. If we stand real still..."

239 TedStriker  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:22:24pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That came up on KOA about 45 minutes ago, before they found him. A reporter who knows the family from some other media events, indicated it might be possible that the family may be a bit of publicity hounds.

The family has appeared on "Wife Swap" a reality show.

Not to mention that Mr. Heene is apparently a UFO believer...CNN got an iReport from him last year where he was making a case for the Cydonia "face" on Mars, not to mention that his balloon was shaped like, well, a classic UFO.

240 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:22:50pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That came up on KOA about 45 minutes ago, before they found him. A reporter who knows the family from some other media events, indicated it might be possible that the family may be a bit of publicity hounds.

The family has appeared on "Wife Swap" a reality show.

Good grief. I call those wife swap shows "child abuse." Reality TV is full of sad specimens of humanity. I'm actually stunned that a lot of them are allowed to be broadcast. They aren't allowed viewing in my home.

I hope the parents are prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law if they did this intentionally.

241 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:23:10pm

re: #230 Village Idiot's Apprentice

However, just like all areas in life, some of us speak directly from experience, some of us read about it in reports.

Thanks for your service and your experiences.

However, the Department of Defense does have as its brief painting a picture of the entire military when it does these reports, and its perspective is necessarily going to be broader and more accurate as a report of the military as a whole than that of any one individual.

Example: one investment broker will know a lot more about the economy etc than me, for example...but the Dept of the Treasury, the FTC, and other organisations know more than he does. This isn't a slur against him to point this out.

242 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:23:11pm

re: #238 allegro

They were probly thinkin' "Thank goodness he doesn't have his glasses on. If we stand real still..."

They didn't even run.

243 ExCamelJockey  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:24:23pm

"As the anti-Obama rhetoric keeps getting more and more insane, we can expect to see more incidents like this."

If anti-President rhetoric is what drives nutjobs to come out then we should see a dramatic decline in this type of stuff from the Bush years.

244 enoughalready  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:24:32pm

re: #235 Walter L. Newton

OT -

So, about an hour ago, I walk out of the house to go across the road to get the mail. I don't have my glasses on, so my far away sight is blurry, I'm sort of looking down on the ground, and when I get to the mailbox, I look up to grab the mail, and about 15 feet away are four deer, looking at me.

They didn't have glasses on either. I swear, it's like a petting zoo up here sometimes.

Heh, had the same thing happen to me the other day. Only problem was I also had my 6 month old Border Collie with me (and I was too damn tired to put the leash on). Good thing I am an experienced yeller-at-border-collies or those deers would've been herded. (The speed is very strong in this one. It'll be interesting when I get him started on the sheep... hmmm)

245 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:24:37pm

re: #234 Charles

Sorry I have to raise the BS flag on this.

they do not make documents like this "top secrete". It is made up.

246 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:24:43pm

re: #236 lrsshadow


It would appear that the military is actually taking many steps to virtually eliminate the possibility you say is happening more frequently with support form those who are in the military.

They are aware of the problem and are trying to combat it, yes, as I stated in virtually every post on this.
The problem is not 'virtually eliminated'.

247 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:25:03pm

re: #234 Charles

How far up the chain of command does support for religious extremism go in the military? It's a good question. And I don't know the answer.

But it wasn't very long ago that it went all the way to the top.

[Link: www.gq.com...]

Thanks for bringing that link back up. It blew my mind when I saw those reports. It faded from the mainstream pretty fast though, not shocking enough?

248 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:25:08pm

re: #234 Charles

How far up the chain of command does support for religious extremism go in the military? It's a good question. And I don't know the answer.

But it wasn't very long ago that it went all the way to the top.

[Link: www.gq.com...]

First time I saw those I couldn't believe they were real. Jaw-dropping.

249 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:25:23pm

re: #245 lrsshadow

Sorry I have to raise the BS flag on this.

they do not make documents like this "top secrete". It is made up.

Jesus Christ, now you've definitively demonstrated that you dont know what the fuck you're talking about.

250 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:25:26pm

re: #245 lrsshadow

Sorry I have to raise the BS flag on this.

they do not make documents like this "top secrete". It is made up.

No, it is not "made up." These are verified.

251 Village Idiot's Apprentice  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:26:40pm

re: #230 Village Idiot's Apprentice

Man, it's been so long since my last post that I forgot that spell checking and hitting "Post this comment" at the same time often doesn't end well.

About half of what I wrote went down the crapper.

Maybe theres a reason why after 5 years here I still don't have my own Village.

252 soxfan4life  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:26:55pm

re: #236 lrsshadow

Sure, but having been there myself, when a recruiter needs to make quota or suffer the bad NCOER they will turn a blind eye, or get a waver, for anything and everything. Had a complete POS soldier come in with a heart defect. Once we turned the heat up on him he admitted he told the recruiter and the recruiter told him to just be quiet get through basic and tech school (AIT) then once at his first duty station go to the TMC and he could get out with a disability. The 3 star general that got wind of it started an investigation and I doubt that recruiter had much of a career after that.

253 ~Fianna  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:26:56pm

re: #234 Charles

How far up the chain of command does support for religious extremism go in the military? It's a good question. And I don't know the answer.

But it wasn't very long ago that it went all the way to the top.

[Link: www.gq.com...]

Thanks for posting that, Charles. I couldn't remember where it was originally published.

I'm completely NOT saying that the military is evil or that everyone in it is bad or corrupt or filled with hate.

I am saying that this is a problem and it's a problem that should concern everyone because the military is a powerful tool for training people in violence. That's the point - and that's good, when it's directed at people who are threatening us. It's not so good when that training is hijacked by people with an agenda and these extremist groups DEFINITELY have an agenda.

In some places, they're bounced quite quickly. In other places, they're not. I think asking 'why not' is a legitimate question.

254 Stanghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:27:22pm

re: #245 lrsshadow

Sorry I have to raise the BS flag on this.

they do not make documents like this "top secrete". It is made up.

I WISH they were made up, but they are very real.

255 doubter4444  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:28:05pm

re: #232 lrsshadow

I understand your point.

My point; it is apparent that in all radical movements a justification catalyst is needed in order to gain the "moral high ground". Extremest groups typically use a view of some Utopian ideal mixed with a real world event involving loss of life. With out some type of injustice they cannot justify to themselves or others that their cause is just thereby leading to actions they would not normally do.

Please disregard my comment about two years, your post made it sound like you spent two years only training soldiers.

As to your point above, I guess that's so, but then I would consider that "justification catalyst" to be RHETORICAL, in that it is making a statement. So getting back to it, the rhetoric is what is driving fringe elements to violence.

256 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:28:09pm

re: #248 Jimmah

First time I saw those I couldn't believe they were real. Jaw-dropping.

I had people here mocking me for posting that link just a few weeks ago. Didn't want to believe it was true. But as Charles notes, it's been verified. I like the gq link because you really can't get the full force of what happened without looking at the slideshow. Creepy doesn't begin to cover it.

257 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:28:27pm

re: #231 Killgore Trout

Thanks for doing some digging. Do you think he's the same historical revisionist who wrote those books about the Marshal plan?

The Marshall Plan? He hates the Marshall Plan? So, Harry Truman and Dwight Eisenhower also are targets for his wrath?

koo-koo

258 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:31:37pm

re: #246 iceweasel

All parts of the military service are so integrated with people from so many walks of life it would be virtually impossible for extremest to survive and operate with-in the military force structure with-out being identified. Those that slip through the cracks are probably less than 12 out of 4 million and cannot operate effectively, if at all.

259 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:32:37pm

re: #250 Charles

by GQ?

260 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:33:38pm

re: #259 lrsshadow

I understand that you want to reflexively deny it. You can find the answer yourself if you're really interested.

261 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:34:08pm

re: #225 Walter L. Newton

That came up on KOA about 45 minutes ago, before they found him. A reporter who knows the family from some other media events, indicated it might be possible that the family may be a bit of publicity hounds.

The family has appeared on "Wife Swap" a reality show.

But are they dark-sided?

262 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:35:58pm

re: #258 lrsshadow

All parts of the military service are so integrated with people from so many walks of life it would be virtually impossible for extremest to survive and operate with-in the military force structure with-out being identified. Those that slip through the cracks are probably less than 12 out of 4 million and cannot operate effectively, if at all.

Maybe you should tell the DHS, the FBI, and the DOD that they're offbase with their worries then. Must be due to their reflexive leftist anti-military bias.

263 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:45:32pm

re: #258 lrsshadow

All parts of the military service are so integrated with people from so many walks of life it would be virtually impossible for extremest to survive and operate with-in the military force structure with-out being identified. Those that slip through the cracks are probably less than 12 out of 4 million and cannot operate effectively, if at all.

There are a lot of people in the military who use it for their own purposes.
[Link: www.stripes.com...]

264 Randall Gross  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:46:27pm

re: #220 Charles

I'm getting very strong "publicity stunt" readings from this one.

The Parents were on an ABC reality show, and he did some videos for CNN

265 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:50:27pm

re: #256 iceweasel

I had people here mocking me for posting that link just a few weeks ago. Didn't want to believe it was true. But as Charles notes, it's been verified. I like the gq link because you really can't get the full force of what happened without looking at the slideshow. Creepy doesn't begin to cover it.

It's like they were manipulating a child. Scary.

266 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:55:28pm

Is it not the case that religious zeal has been used by the military as a method of boosting morale and inculcating soldiers with a greater enthusiasm to carry out their fighting duties?
I am not talking about the US in particular, but rather to the armed forces of very many nations throughout history.
And I am not just talking about Christianity either.
Islam and Judaism have likewise been invoked to inspire the troops to fight in the name, and for the greater glory, of God.
So is it really that surprising that this age-old morale-building technique has been used in the US military?

267 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 3:59:59pm

re: #266 Spare O'Lake


So is it really that surprising that this age-old morale-building technique has been used in the US military?

Yes, amd not just surprising but horrifying, because the US is not a theocracy, was not founded as a Christian nation, despite the fondest fantasies of the theocrats, and is a secular nation.

268 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:02:18pm

re: #260 Charles

I understand that you want to reflexively deny it. You can find the answer yourself if you're really interested.

Those images are stupid and inappropriate, but I don't see them supporting Fianna's contention that extremism is encouraged/protected from above in the military, or that extremism is becoming part of the ingrained culture of the US military.

269 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:04:32pm

re: #267 iceweasel

Yes, amd not just surprising but horrifying, because the US is not a theocracy, was not founded as a Christian nation, despite the fondest fantasies of the theocrats, and is a secular nation.

Let me add also that it's an insult to the many brave servicemen and women of all different faiths -- and no faith at all -- who served the US.

Available Emblems of Belief for Placement on Gov't Headstones and Markers.

That's from that radical hippie america-hating organisation the Dept of Veterans Affairs, btw.

270 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:06:08pm

re: #268 funky chicken

Those images are stupid and inappropriate, but I don't see them supporting Fianna's contention that extremism is encouraged/protected from above in the military, or that extremism is becoming part of the ingrained culture of the US military.

Donald Rumsfeld isn't high enough up for you?

271 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:06:19pm

re: #258 lrsshadow

All parts of the military service are so integrated with people from so many walks of life it would be virtually impossible for extremest to survive and operate with-in the military force structure with-out being identified. Those that slip through the cracks are probably less than 12 out of 4 million and cannot operate effectively, if at all.

12? 120? 1200? Who knows?

The point is, extremism isn't encouraged or protected from above in the US military.

Do some extremists slip through the screening process just like gang members and other disreputable types? Of course. Does the military want these people around? Absolutely NOT. If/when they are discovered, they are removed if there is enough proof for a legal dismissal (court martial, less than honorable discharge, etc).

There's no reason to try to give a specific number to refute the accusation.

272 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:06:33pm

re: #266 Spare O'Lake


Islam and Judaism have likewise been invoked to inspire the troops to fight in the name, and for the greater glory, of God.

Let's hear it for religiously boosted warfare. We should give thanks for this./

Where would the crusades have been without it?/

273 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:07:42pm

re: #270 iceweasel

Donald Rumsfeld isn't high enough up for you?

So Rumsfeld proved himself to be a KKKer or Aryan Nation type because he put bible quotes on pictures?

It was inappropriate and kinda stupid, but not encouragement/protection for extremists.

274 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:12:35pm

re: #267 iceweasel

Yes, amd not just surprising but horrifying, because the US is not a theocracy, was not founded as a Christian nation, despite the fondest fantasies of the theocrats, and is a secular nation.

I understand that non-Christians may feel threatened by this. But if this technique has proven to be effective in raising morale and fighting spirit, then perhaps there needs to be another solution which does not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Such as perhaps a more inclusive program which includes appeals to other faiths. And maybe even something which would appeal to atheists.

275 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:13:13pm

re: #168 lrsshadow

i've never played professional football or run an NFL team - your logic extends that I then can't have an opinion on what happens - or even discuss dispassionately in an offhand manner anything to do with it...

276 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:15:18pm

re: #273 funky chicken

So Rumsfeld proved himself to be a KKKer or Aryan Nation type because he put bible quotes on pictures?

It was inappropriate and kinda stupid, but not encouragement/protection for extremists.

The Iraq War wasn't supposed to be a religious war, remember?
Rumsfeld deliberately manipulated Bush by portraying it that way.

And there absolutely is a problem in the military. Apart from the extremism I mentioned that the DHS, FBI, and DOD are worried about, how about some good oldfashioned religious persecution?

FORT RILEY, Kan. — When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.

But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. “People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!” Major Welborn said, according to the statement.

Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.

BTW:

Specialist Hall’s lawsuit is the latest incident to raise questions about the military’s religion guidelines. In 2005, the Air Force issued new regulations in response to complaints from cadets at the Air Force Academy that evangelical Christian officers used their positions to proselytize. In general, the armed forces have regulations, Ms. Lainez said, that respect “the rights of others to their own religious beliefs, including the right to hold no beliefs.”


[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

277 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:15:47pm

re: #273 funky chicken

So Rumsfeld proved himself to be a KKKer or Aryan Nation type because he put bible quotes on pictures?

Strawman. The point was regarding extremism. Dressing up military strategy in this kind of religious garb is extremism. Not KKK or Aryan nation, but religious extremism. I'm sure you'd have no trouble identifying it as such if there were official documents from some Islamic country that were covered with quranic incitements to holy war.

278 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:16:35pm

re: #274 Spare O'Lake

I understand that non-Christians may feel threatened by this. But if this technique has proven to be effective in raising morale and fighting spirit, then perhaps there needs to be another solution which does not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Such as perhaps a more inclusive program which includes appeals to other faiths. And maybe even something which would appeal to atheists.

Sorry. The US is not a Christian nation. It is not a theocracy. It is not supposed to fight religious wars, remember?

279 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:19:37pm

re: #258 lrsshadow

very good article about the Christianised nature of the Military from Harpers.


When Barack Obama moved into the Oval Office in January, he inherited a military not just drained by a two-front war overseas but fighting a third battle on the home front, a subtle civil war over its own soul. On one side are the majority of military personnel, professionals who regardless of their faith or lack thereof simply want to get their jobs done; on the other is a small but powerful movement of Christian soldiers concentrated in the officer corps. There’s Major General Johnny A. Weida, who as commandant at the Air Force Academy made its National Day of Prayer services exclusively Christian, and also created a code for evangelical cadets: whenever Weida said, “Airpower,” they were to respond “Rock Sir!”—a reference to Matthew 7:25. (The general told them that when non-evangelical cadets asked about the mysterious call-and-response, they should share the gospel.)

280 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:19:43pm
As an official arm of the Defense Department's America Supports You program, OSU plans to mail copies of the controversial apocalyptic video game, Left Behind: Eternal Forces to soldiers serving in Iraq. OSU is also scheduled to embark on a "Military Crusade in Iraq" in the near future.

"We feel the forces of heaven have encouraged us to perform multiple crusades that will sweep through this war torn region," OSU declares on its website about its planned trip to Iraq. "We'll hold the only religious crusade of its size in the dangerous land of Iraq."

Kill Or Convert, Brought to You By the Pentagon

281 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:20:14pm

re: #279 wozzablog

link to article
[Link: www.harpers.org...]

282 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:22:11pm

re: #281 wozzablog

link to article
[Link: www.harpers.org...]

I was just about to link that myself. Excellent article, written by Jeff Sharlet, the guy who wrote that book on The Family.

283 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:24:29pm

re: #268 funky chicken

I'll ask you to look over the link i posted about fundamental chritsianity in the officer class being filtered downwards and instilled in cadet schools.

Everything the Bush administration touched became embued with Fundamentalists. He and his kind were in charge of the military as civillians for 8 years - those who shared the Civillian overseers BJU brand of belief felt emboldend. it's not a million mile leap.

284 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:27:26pm

re: #283 wozzablog

Also from that Harper's article:

What men such as these have fomented is a quiet coup within the armed forces: not of generals encroaching on civilian rule but of religious authority displacing the military’s once staunchly secular code. Not a conspiracy but a cultural transformation, achieved gradually through promotions and prayer meetings, with personal faith replacing protocol according to the best intentions of commanders who conflate God with country. They see themselves not as subversives but as spiritual warriors—“ambassadors for Christ in uniform,” according to Officers’ Christian Fellowship; “government paid missionaries,” according to Campus Crusade’s Military Ministry.

There was a soldier who also sued because he and others were forced to attended fundamentalist Christian gatherings. Can you remember his name? I can't offhand.

285 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:28:42pm

re: #278 iceweasel

Sorry. The US is not a Christian nation. It is not a theocracy. It is not supposed to fight religious wars, remember?

The problem is not religion in the military, but rather extreme Christian religious fundamentalist proselytization. That is what I meant when I said the US need not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Religious extremism is to be discouraged, but that is not to say that religions cannot be observed and even used to promote morale and fighting spirit.

286 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:30:16pm

re: #284 iceweasel


Specialist Dustin Chalker was one of them/

[Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

287 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:33:21pm

re: #285 Spare O'Lake

The problem is not religion in the military, but rather extreme Christian religious fundamentalist proselytization. That is what I meant when I said the US need not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Religious extremism is to be discouraged, but that is not to say that religions cannot be observed and even used to promote morale and fighting spirit.

There IS a problem with religion in the military. Read the harper's link that wozzablog provided, if nothing else.

Here's a fun random fact:

In March 2008, a chaplain at Lakenheath, a U.S. Air Force–operated base in England, used a mandatory suicide-prevention assembly under Lieutenant General Rod Bishop as an opportunity to promote the principles of The Purpose-Driven Life to roughly 1,000 airmen. In a PowerPoint diagram depicting two family trees, the chaplain contrasted the likely future of a non-religious family, characterized by “Hopelessness” and “Death,” and that of a religious one. The secular family will, according to the diagram, spawn 300 convicts, 190 prostitutes, and 680 alcoholics. Purpose-driven breeding, meanwhile, will result in at least 430 ministers, seven congressmen, and one vice-president.

Here is another, much more worrisome: google Air Force Academy religion scandal

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- The U.S. Air Force said Tuesday it will appoint a task force to investigate allegations of religious intolerance at the Air Force Academy.

Among the items to be reviewed will be Air Force policy and guidance concerning religious respect and tolerance at the academy, said acting Secretary of the Air Force Michael Dominguez.

Some 55 complaints of religious discrimination have been filed going back to 2001, prompting school officials to require that all 9,000 cadets and faculty and staff members take a 50-minute course on religious sensitivity, academy officials said.

In addition, a report last week by a Washington-based religious liberty group accused cadets and staff members of creating a climate that discriminated against non-Christians at the academy in Colorado Springs, Colorado


[Link: www.cnn.com...]

288 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:34:09pm

the Air Force Academy scandal is from 2005, btw.

289 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:34:24pm

re: #244 enoughalready

Heh, had the same thing happen to me the other day. Only problem was I also had my 6 month old Border Collie with me (and I was too damn tired to put the leash on). Good thing I am an experienced yeller-at-border-collies or those deers would've been herded. (The speed is very strong in this one. It'll be interesting when I get him started on the sheep... hmmm)

You must be...usually my dog's hearing is inversely proportional to the distance from him to me.

290 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:34:38pm

re: #286 wozzablog

Specialist Dustin Chalker was one of them/

[Link: www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org...]

Just to let you know - you now have the power of ding (over 50 posts). Congrats and use wisely, ie librhully. ;-)

291 Liberal Classic  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:35:59pm

re: #285 Spare O'Lake

The problem is not religion in the military, but rather extreme Christian religious fundamentalist proselytization. That is what I meant when I said the US need not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Religious extremism is to be discouraged, but that is not to say that religions cannot be observed and even used to promote morale and fighting spirit.

How are you supposed to use religion to boost morale without fundamentalist proselytizing? The status quo is adequate. Servicemen may attend services of their choice. They may ask for guidance of the chaplain corps. They may also pray for the injured or killed, bow their heads in a moment of silence. All these things are fine, and do not represent an establishment of religion. What you're suggesting (unless I am reading it wrong) goes beyond the status quo. Officers and NCOs have many ways to deal with morale already, without having to say "go kill 'em for Jesus." Besides, what is Pvt Patel supposed to do?

292 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:40:49pm

Hatred of religion breeds idiocy just as surely as hatred of atheism. re: #287 iceweasel

Your examples, which are of religious extremist proselytization, prove my point. Remember, the US is not a Christian nation, but the right to worship is constitutionally protected whether you like it or not.
And I still say that religion is a very powerful motivator and source of morale and comfort for most troops, so why on earth should the forces be weakened by stripping that away from those who need and benefit from it?

293 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:42:37pm

re: #292 Spare O'Lake

it's the people who wanted no part of it being forced to take part in it that we have at issue here...

way to go and totally miss a point.

294 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:42:53pm

re: #292 Spare O'Lake

Hatred of religion breeds idiocy just as surely as hatred of atheism.

Your examples, which are of religious extremist proselytization, prove my point. Remember, the US is not a Christian nation, but the right to worship is constitutionally protected whether you like it or not.
And I still say that religion is a very powerful motivator and source of morale and comfort for most troops, so why on earth should the forces be weakened by stripping that away from those who need and benefit from it?

Liberal Classic already answered you above.
The US is a secular nation.
The US Army is a secular institution.

295 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:43:52pm

re: #290 Jimmah

thank you.

I reached the 50 posts in the Limbaugh thread yesterday... much dinging has been done since then ;-)

296 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:44:00pm

re: #292 Spare O'Lake

Your examples, which are of religious extremist proselytization, prove my point. Remember, the US is not a Christian nation, but the right to worship is constitutionally protected whether you like it or not.
And I still say that religion is a very powerful motivator and source of morale and comfort for most troops, so why on earth should the forces be weakened by stripping that away from those who need and benefit from it?

Wow, that's quite a leap. You propose using religion as a direct motivator and then argue against that being a bad idea by saying that Ice proposes "stripping away" the right to pray on an individual basis.

297 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:44:14pm

re: #291 Liberal Classic

How are you supposed to use religion to boost morale without fundamentalist proselytizing? The status quo is adequate. Servicemen may attend services of their choice. They may ask for guidance of the chaplain corps. They may also pray for the injured or killed, bow their heads in a moment of silence. All these things are fine, and do not represent an establishment of religion. What you're suggesting (unless I am reading it wrong) goes beyond the status quo. Officers and NCOs have many ways to deal with morale already, without having to say "go kill 'em for Jesus." Besides, what is Pvt Patel supposed to do?

What is wrong with saying "Go kill 'em for Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Baal" - so long as it serves to boost morale and fighting spirit?

298 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:45:36pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

really. you want an answer?/

299 Liberal Classic  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:45:41pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

What is wrong with saying "Go kill 'em for Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Baal" - so long as it serves to boost morale and fighting spirit?

Because our armed forces are a professional fighting force, not a religious crusade.

300 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:46:28pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

What is wrong with saying "Go kill 'em for Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Baal" - so long as it serves to boost morale and fighting spirit?

Are you out of your mind?

Someone did tell people to "go kill em for Mohammed" not so long ago. Osama bin Laden. I think you probably had a problem with that, right?

301 [deleted]  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:48:12pm
302 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:49:50pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

How long do you think it will take someone to object?

"Hey! They're telling soldiers to kill the enemy for Buddha! That's offensive to my Christian beliefs! We can only kill the enemy in the name of Jebus!"

Since Buddhism is a pacifist religion, don't know how much success you would have there anyway..:)

303 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:50:59pm

re: #293 wozzablog

it's the people who wanted no part of it being forced to take part in it that we have at issue here...

way to go and totally miss a point.

No, I agree that forced observance is bad and must be stopped, and that is what the cited reports are aimed at.
For others here, that is not good enough.

304 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:51:40pm

re: #292 Spare O'Lake

Something called separation of Church and State. You might want to look that up sometime.

305 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:53:23pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

What is wrong with saying "Go kill 'em for Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Baal" - so long as it serves to boost morale and fighting spirit?

I can't believe you said that.

306 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:53:32pm

Appears to me that anytime religion and weapons are combined, a lot of blood is spilled.

307 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:54:38pm

re: #303 Spare O'Lake

No, I agree that forced observance is bad and must be stopped, and that is what the cited reports are aimed at.
For others here, that is not good enough.

Find one person here who is advocating anything other than maintaining the separation of Church and State.

308 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:56:14pm

re: #303 Spare O'Lake

which others?... call them out.

i don't know who is arguing for the removal of the Chaplaincy service or the MultiFaith provisions made to serving men and women...


A secular military - which has been touted - is not one which has no religious personel - but is one which has no established religion or favouritism. Upholding a Secular Military does not mean getting rid of chaplaincy/imamas or Rabbis

309 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:57:26pm

re: #300 iceweasel

Are you out of your mind?

Someone did tell people to "go kill em for Mohammed" not so long ago. Osama bin Laden. I think you probably had a problem with that, right?

Here is the prayer:
In the name of whatever God you believe in, or whatever you hold dear, do your duty to your country and kill the enemy quickly and thoroughly.

310 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:57:26pm

re: #287 iceweasel

My husband participated in the USAFA investigation. A general lost his career, because his behavior was inappropriate. He wasn't encouraging extremism, btw, but was opening professional meetings with a prayer.

He never encouraged extremism, as you and Fianna have repeatedly accused military leaders of doing.

Unless you define religious expression by military members extremism.

Here's how the ADL defines it:

For over 90 years, the Anti-Defamation League has fought against bigotry and anti-Semitism by exposing and reporting on hate groups and other extremists who seek to harm perceived enemies and to undermine our democracy. Today, ADL’s Center on Extremism continues our mission to expose and document the groups and individuals whose ideologies and activities perpetuate hatred and extremism. To this end, the Center on Extremism has created an online resource, Extremism in America, whichserves as a guide to prominent extreme movements, groups, and leaders in the United States.

The entries in Extremism in America provide the context needed to understand the history of such extremists, what their beliefs are, how those beliefs motivate them to action, and what forms their actions take. This resource is divided into several categories--Individuals, Groups, Movements, and Media—and paints a comprehensive picture of the current state of extremism in the United States. The Anti-Semitic neo-Nazi skinheads, camouflage-wearing militia members, arson-prone environmental extremists—all these and more are described and explained, with the latest and up-to-date analysis and information.

At the root of extremism are radical ideologies, radical religious beliefs and pent-up anger and frustration, all of which can lead to violent acts ranging from hate crimes to terrorism. In the United States, the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing and the 9-11 terrorist attacks six years later, have made it painfully clear that Americans cannot ignore the dangers of extremism.

and

America unfortunately has no shortage of extremists. Some come from the far right, primarily in the form of racist and anti-Semitic hate groups or anti-government extremists. Others come from the far left, including environmental and animal rights extremists. Some extreme movements may focus around a single, narrow issue, such as abortion and involve anti-abortion extremists who bomb health clinics. Other movements may stem from ideologies that stress racial superiority, fanatic religious beliefs or radical political views.

Again, I guarantee that military leaders don't encourage or protect extremists in the ranks.

You believe otherwise, even though you aren't a member of the US military and never have been, and perhaps aren't in a position to know many of us who inhabit the military community.

Basically, that makes you a bigot.

whatever.
[Link: www.adl.org...]

311 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:59:23pm

re: #306 allegro

Appears to me that anytime religion and weapons are combined, a lot of blood is spilled.

Isn't the whole point of war to kill your enemy until he surrenders?
We seem to have a problem with that these days, don't we?

312 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:59:32pm

re: #309 Spare O'Lake

I hate to say it, but that sounds like something out of a Black Adder sketch.

313 Eclectic Infidel  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 4:59:48pm

re: #149 fsjeffrey

You mentioned out of control spending. Did you protest when Bush ramped up the war in Iraq? Have you been paying attention to the $$$ spent yearly on Iraq alone? What about the early years of the Bush presidency? Remember the "free speech zones" set up by the secret service? What freedoms have been curtailed under the current administration? What laws have been passed to prohibit your rights as an American?

What the hell are you talking about?

314 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:00:26pm

re: #311 Spare O'Lake

Isn't the whole point of war to kill your enemy until he surrenders?
We seem to have a problem with that these days, don't we?

I do have a problem with religious wars, yes.

315 funky chicken  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:00:46pm
America unfortunately has no shortage of extremists. Some come from the far right, primarily in the form of racist and anti-Semitic hate groups or anti-government extremists. Others come from the far left, including environmental and animal rights extremists.

And then you have the guy who was the topic of this thread...who seems to hate every US president in history, or at least all of the ones since FDR.

Just an all-purpose nutjob.

316 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:01:16pm

re: #308 wozzablog

which others?... call them out.

i don't know who is arguing for the removal of the Chaplaincy service or the MultiFaith provisions made to serving men and women...


A secular military - which has been touted - is not one which has no religious personel - but is one which has no established religion or favouritism. Upholding a Secular Military does not mean getting rid of chaplaincy/imamas or Rabbis

You confuse "non-denominational" with "secular".

317 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:01:28pm

re: #291 Liberal Classic

People claimed gays could degrade unit cohesion. Wait till an internal
struggle in the chaplaincies takes hold. The problem surfaced a few
years ago, mostly in the AF and Navy. The Army seemed pretty cool,
although Catholics and Protestants sometimes struggled over the
Sunday schedules to improve their shot at the O'club brunch.

318 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:01:36pm

re: #301 fsjeffrey

Piss off, won't you?

319 Liberal Classic  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:01:43pm

O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them! With them -- in spirit -- we also go forth from the sweet peace of our beloved firesides to smite the foe. O Lord our God, help us to tear their soldiers to bloody shreds with our shells; help us to cover their smiling fields with the pale forms of their patriot dead; help us to drown the thunder of the guns with the shrieks of their wounded, writhing in pain; help us to lay waste their humble homes with a hurricane of fire; help us to wring the hearts of their unoffending widows with unavailing grief; help us to turn them out roofless with little children to wander unfriended the wastes of their desolated land in rags and hunger and thirst, sports of the sun flames of summer and the icy winds of winter, broken in spirit, worn with travail, imploring Thee for the refuge of the grave and denied it -- for our sakes who adore Thee, Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love, and Who is the ever-faithful refuge and friend of all that are sore beset and seek His aid with humble and contrite hearts. Amen.

320 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:04:47pm

re: #316 Spare O'Lake

non-denominational intones there is a Religion of the Military but it isn't a fixed denomination. Secular means there is no Religion of the Military - but that there are religious people in the Military in a private capacity.

America is a Secular country - not a Non-Denominational one for those very reasons. All Churches and the state must be kept seperate.

321 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:05:09pm

re: #314 allegro

I do have a problem with religious wars, yes.

A religious war is a war whose objective is to impose the religion of the victor on the loser. That is not what we are talking about here at all. We are talking about using religion to motivate troops who believe to better carry out a perfectly proper military objective such as killing terrorists.

322 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:05:24pm

re: #319 Liberal Classic

O Lord our Father, our young patriots, idols of our hearts, go forth to battle -- be Thou near them!... Lord, blast their hopes, blight their lives, protract their bitter pilgrimage, make heavy their steps, water their way with their tears, stain the white snow with the blood of their wounded feet! We ask it, in the spirit of love, of Him Who is the Source of Love,...

Maybe it's just me, but I'm seeing a real dissonance here. Of course, it's that dissonance that got me tossed from my Methodist confirmation class when I asked, "How come if God loves everyone that he kills some and saves others?"

323 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:05:56pm

re: #312 PT Barnum

It's actually Python.


Oh Lord - Bless this your holy handgrenade - that you may blow your enemies into tiny pieces.
324 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:06:35pm

re: #321 Spare O'Lake

A religious war is a war whose objective is to impose the religion of the victor on the loser. That is not what we are talking about here at all. We are talking about using religion to motivate troops who believe to better carry out a perfectly proper military objective such as killing terrorists.

If religion is what is motivating the troops, then is it not, by definition, a religious war?

325 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:06:49pm

re: #310 funky chicken

Basically, that makes you a bigot.

whatever.
[Link: www.adl.org...]

Downding for calling me a bigot, simply because you don't like the facts-- which are that those 'bigoted' organisations the DOD, the FBI, and the DHS have all identified major problems with people in the military looking the other way when it comes to white supremacism/extremism.

326 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:07:39pm

re: #323 wozzablog

It's actually Python.

Python was my first thought, but it seemed a bit too subtle to be Python.

Or maybe it was a Unitarian prayer. :)

Actually it reminded me of the Man's Prayer:

I'm a man, and I can change, if I have to, I guess.

327 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:07:42pm

re: #316 Spare O'Lake

You confuse "non-denominational" with "secular".

The United States is a secular nation. The military is likewise secular.

328 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:08:43pm

re: #324 allegro

If religion is what is motivating the troops, then is it not, by definition, a religious war?

No.

329 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:09:36pm

re: #321 Spare O'Lake

A religious war is a war whose objective is to impose the religion of the victor on the loser. That is not what we are talking about here at all. We are talking about using religion to motivate troops who believe to better carry out a perfectly proper military objective such as killing terrorists.

So the Islamic terrorists who attacked the United States on 9-11 weren't engaging in a 'religious war' because they didn't have the intent to convert the people they killed?

330 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:09:42pm

re: #328 Spare O'Lake

'Twould be a fine hair to split then.

331 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:12:42pm

re: #329 iceweasel

I think the difference is a war motivated by religion vs. a religious war.

For example, if the Wug Wugs currently occupy land where the Grand Poobah once sat on the sacred Whoopie Cushion, and I am a Poobahnite, then I may start a war to reclaim that land, without necessarily wanting to convert the populace, only drive them out.

If I'm fighting a war to convert them, because they are heathens, then that's a different story.

332 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:13:01pm

re: #319 Liberal Classic

Do you have a link to Twain's "War Prayer"? I'm not up to posting
links yet.

333 Sharmuta  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:13:15pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

Is there something wrong with them fighting for the Constitution? Because if that's not the reason why they fight, I'm not sure why they're there.

334 Charles Johnson  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:13:55pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

What is wrong with saying "Go kill 'em for Jesus, Moses, Mohammed or Baal" - so long as it serves to boost morale and fighting spirit?

Yeah! "Get on out there and kill a few for Jesus!"

Are you serious?

335 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:14:28pm

re: #326 PT Barnum

The Cambridge Footlights Unitarian Prayer For BBC Light Entertainment.

Python was plenty subtle...

as a Gumby..."I WOULD LIKE TO SEE MORE WEBLOG THREADS ABOUT BRICKS"

336 Liberal Classic  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:15:06pm

re: #332 Decatur Deb

Mark Twain's War Prayer:
[Link: en.wikisource.org...]

It's Wikipedia entry:
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

(I'm glad someone recognized it :)

337 Ayeless in Ghazi  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:15:21pm

re: #328 Spare O'Lake

No.

So a war in which everone is fighting for the glory of, say Allah, isn't a religious war, just because the leaders have a non religious objective?

And if it turned out that OBL had started this whole Jihad off as a way of trying to impress Yvonne Ridley, then this would all have turned out not to have been a religious war at all, despite what all the jihadists who were actually fighting it thought?

One word : bollocks.

338 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:15:22pm

re: #330 allegro

'Twould be a fine hair to split then.

The hair apparently is "killing for christianity=good!" "killing for islam=bad!"

...unless you're in the US military, in which case it's cool if you kill for any religiously motivated reason whatsoever according to him, so long as it means you kill more of America's enemies.

Youtube Video

Spare-- really, please think about what you're saying. I don't think you really endorse the positions you're advocating. At least, I hope not.

339 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:19:38pm

re: #329 iceweasel

So the Islamic terrorists who attacked the United States on 9-11 weren't engaging in a 'religious war' because they didn't have the intent to convert the people they killed?

I think that, in their distant dreams, the hardcore hope to forcibly convert
the survivors.

340 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:19:39pm

re: #327 iceweasel

The United States is a secular nation. The military is likewise secular.

As an agnostic (as I think you know I am) I nevertheless find myself defending the practice and even the use of voluntary religious observance as a military tactic to boost morale and fighting spirit.
I think I feel this way because I want to maximize our side's chances to win the wars we are forced to fight.
It's really just that simple.

341 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:20:01pm

re: #335 wozzablog


And Chrysanthemumenums!

342 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:20:13pm

re: #331 PT Barnum

which of them was on the side of The Great Pumpkin?

343 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:23:23pm

re: #340 Spare O'Lake

As an agnostic (as I think you know I am) I nevertheless find myself defending the practice and even the use of voluntary religious observance as a military tactic to boost morale and fighting spirit.
I think I feel this way because I want to maximize our side's chances to win the wars we are forced to fight.
It's really just that simple.

That's a 180 from what you were advocating above. Good.

344 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:24:34pm

re: #342 wozzablog

I was thinking about the current fight within the Church of the FSM, where there is a great deal of argument about whether the FSM is bathed in holy Marinara or Alfredo.

345 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:24:36pm

re: #333 Sharmuta

Is there something wrong with them fighting for the Constitution? Because if that's not the reason why they fight, I'm not sure why they're there.

Of course not. My argument is that religion can be a legitimate and effective motivating factor for many troops, that we should not deny them.

346 Decatur Deb  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:26:13pm

re: #338 iceweasel

T so long as it means you kill more of America's enemies.


In the newer Field Manuals, the purpose of war is "to destroy the
enemy's will to resist". Killing might be a means or by-product, or
even avoidable.

(Here I would post video of new non-lethal
weapons if I knew what I was doing.)

347 Liberal Classic  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:26:39pm

re: #345 Spare O'Lake

Of course not. My argument is that religion can be a legitimate and effective motivating factor for many troops, that we should not deny them.

But we don't. That's why we have a chaplain corps.

348 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:26:45pm

re: #344 PT Barnum

I was thinking about the current fight within the Church of the FSM, where there is a great deal of argument about whether the FSM is bathed in holy Marinara or Alfredo.

Ohhh, I thought it was about mushrooms.

349 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:28:03pm

re: #344 PT Barnum

My Child - neither is the true way - seek Carbonara and yee shall find true happiness and oneness with the FSM.

350 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:32:44pm

re: #349 wozzablog

Ah but do you believe in three meatballs or two? That's the true measure of faith.

Also to shave or grate the Parmesan during the Holy Supper of Carbohydrate Loading.

Don't even get me started on whether to twirl direction.

Heretic.

351 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:33:34pm

re: #343 iceweasel

That's a 180 from what you were advocating above. Good.

No it's not, you have been consistently ignoring my clearly articulated condemnation of extremist Christian proselytization.
It is you who has done the 180.
Good. ;D

352 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:33:39pm

re: #350 PT Barnum

Ah but do you believe in three meatballs or two? That's the true measure of faith.

Any more than two is a redundancy. ;)

353 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:34:10pm

re: #350 PT Barnum

Don't even get me started on whether to twirl in a clockwise or counter clockwise direction.

Heretic.

Yeesh...a lack of pasta has affected my ability to type..though I did get a big ol bowl of Pho today, which did wonders for my head cold.

354 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:36:58pm

re: #350 PT Barnum

we are all Children of the FSM - do not make these fine people choose sides - the next Convention Of True Belief and Recieved Wisdom will provide the latest notifications and - by extension - do the thinking for us.

(i hope you recover fron your cold soon)

355 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:38:52pm

re: #354 wozzablog

Someone tried to make me feel better by saying that head colds usually weren't fatal. My response was that it was only the hope of dying that was keeping me alive.

Couldn't we find a way to infect Al-Queda with an incurable sinus infection? We'd never hear from any of them ever again.

356 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:40:59pm

re: #338 iceweasel

Spare-- really, please think about what you're saying. I don't think you really endorse the positions you're advocating. At least, I hope not.

Oh I do, I really do.

Youtube Video
357 Sergeant Major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:41:20pm

re: #133 iceweasel

This is one of the requirements that the military has when someone plans to join.

7. Moral character. Persons entering the Armed Forces
should be of good moral character. The underlying purpose of
moral character enlistment standards is to minimize entrance of
persons who are likely to become disciplinary cases or security
risks or who disrupt good order, morale, and discipline.

One specific question that is asked of ALL individuals who join the military is this: Do you/have you belong/belonged to an extremist organization that has advocated the over through of the the US Government...The Us army simply does not have the resources to do a complete back ground check on every individual that wishes to join however, when it comes to obtaining a security clearance an extensive check is done.

358 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:47:16pm

re: #357 Sergeant Major

...complete back ground check on every individual that wishes to join however, when it comes to obtaining a security clearance an extensive check is done.

I had to be "top secret" cleared to address a mouse in the control room at NASA. I thought that was pretty funny... if a waste of taxpayer funds.

359 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:48:25pm

re: #355 PT Barnum

we'd still here from them - we just wouldn't be able to understand them over the phone...

360 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:48:53pm

re: #334 Charles

Yeah! "Get on out there and kill a few for Jesus!"

Are you serious?

If that is what it takes to help motivate the believers in the ranks, then I see nothing wrong with an invocation along the lines contained in my comment #309.

361 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:51:22pm

re: #359 wozzablog

As much as I hate to say this, I wouldn't wish my cold on my worst enemy. Virulent Herpes sores and a continuous case of intestinal express, sure, but not this damn sinus infection.

362 sagehen  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:52:11pm

re: #350 PT Barnum

Ah but do you believe in three meatballs or two? That's the true measure of faith.

Also to shave or grate the Parmesan during the Holy Supper of Carbohydrate Loading.

Don't even get me started on whether to twirl direction.

Heretic.


The details of the form of the repast are irrelevant, so long as thou art appropriately clad in the pirate regalia.

Dost not forget thy parrot and pegleg.

363 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:53:22pm

re: #361 PT Barnum

As much as I hate to say this, I wouldn't wish my cold on my worst enemy. Virulent Herpes sores and a continuous case of intestinal express, sure, but not this damn sinus infection.

Garlic Soup. Recipe on request.

364 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:54:41pm

re: #363 allegro

Garlic Soup. Recipe on request.

Chicken soup - Jewish penicillin!

365 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:56:30pm

Garlic is a powerful anti-microbial. Been called "Russian Penicillin". Not going there re: Jewish v Russian!

366 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:58:05pm

re: #363 allegro

Do you have a link?

Although I loaded the Pho up with that Chinese Hot Mustard...the sad thing was that I couldn't even feel it..so either the Mustard was weak or my cold was strong.

Going to refrigerator for tablespoon of good English horseradish.

367 Sergeant Major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 5:58:16pm

re: #358 allegro

If your so concerned about wasting "those tax" dollars join the military so we can all get our money's worth.

368 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:06:39pm

re: #366 PT Barnum

Do you have a link?

Nope. Know it from an old herbal remedy book. Write this down...

1 can broth (beef is the best)
4-5 cloves garlic, minced
about 2 tsp olive oil
1 egg
1TBS cider vinegar

Saute garlic in olive oil. Add broth. Bring to boil. Separate egg. Beat egg whites and dribble into boiling broth. Combine egg yolks with vinegar. Slowly add to broth mixture.

It sounds really wierd, I know. But it is delicious and it will blow the sinuses out and address the infection. Really good for the heart and arteries.

369 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:09:07pm

re: #367 Sergeant Major

If your so concerned about wasting "those tax" dollars join the military so we can all get our money's worth.

Did my government service with the US Fish & Wildlife Service. If the military has an issue with wolves, coyotes or pissed off bobcat, they know where I am. *g*

370 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:11:51pm

re: #368 allegro

Yeah, but will I ever get my wife back in bed with me again? That sounds like it would have the same effect as chili dog night at the local Dairy Queen.

371 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:13:52pm

re: #370 PT Barnum

Yeah, but will I ever get my wife back in bed with me again? That sounds like it would have the same effect as chili dog night at the local Dairy Queen.

LOL! A whole 'nother issue. Make enough for her too. It really is yummy - if you like garlic.

372 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:14:58pm

re: #351 Spare O'Lake

No it's not, you have been consistently ignoring my clearly articulated condemnation of extremist Christian proselytization.
It is you who has done the 180.
Good. ;D

No, you were claiming that 'some' people here wanted to abolish religion or some such bullshit.
When called on it you shut up.
You also were calling for various other ridiculous positions.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

373 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:15:18pm

re: #371 allegro

I'll think about that...I may have to go back to the Vietnamese place for another bowl of Pho and see if that helps, otherwise the garlic soup may be next.

374 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:15:45pm

re: #372 iceweasel

Girls, girls you're both pretty!

375 allegro  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:18:51pm

re: #374 PT Barnum

Girls, girls you're both pretty!

Ooohh, I suspect that won't go well for you.

376 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:21:54pm

re: #361 PT Barnum

don't know whether to down ding the mental images or leave you suffering enough...

377 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:31:14pm

re: #375 allegro

Perhaps not, but it was starting to sound like a cat fight rather than a substantive discussion of the issue.re: #376 wozzablog

378 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:31:58pm

re: #377 PT Barnum

PIMF- started a reply before I finished the first...

379 amrafel  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:38:54pm

Hi Charles,
In your proper distancing yourself from the extreme anti-Obama rhetoric, are you perhaps forgetting to point out some Obama flaws? Thanks!

380 Nervous Norvous  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:41:07pm

re: #379 amrafel

WTF does that have to do with anything? The topic isn't whether Obama has flaws, even those of us who support him are willing to concede that.

This is the same kind of on the other hand bullshit that makes the MSM so unbearable to watch anymore.

381 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:44:37pm

re: #379 amrafel

That theme has been so well covered, we're still talking about people discussing flaws that Obama doesn't have.

382 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:49:03pm

re: #262 iceweasel

My point is that there is not support for this in the chain of command. This is still just a few bad apples and you are going to have some problems when you have millions of personal.

I am not saying that the agencies should stop being vigilant. What I am saying it is not some wide spread problem as some here are suggesting.

383 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:54:13pm

re: #263 jaunte

Yah real funny that they don't have any real criminal data to back up the claim. All they have is one instance where a soldier was killed by gangbangers and a "community activist" saying he thinks there are 200-300 members in the military base that are in gangs.

Try again.

384 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 6:56:58pm

re: #383 lrsshadow
Gang Members in the Military (DoJ)
[Link: www.usdoj.gov...]
Gang activity on the rise in the ranks
[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

385 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:01:00pm

re: #383 lrsshadow

FBI says U.S. criminal gangs are using military to spread their reach
[Link: www.stripes.com...]

386 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:03:18pm

re: #383 lrsshadow

According to an FBI published report, "gang-related activity in the U.S. military is increasing and poses a threat to law-enforcement officials and national security."

The report, released in February 2007, noted that members of nearly every major street gang -- including MS-13, Bloods, Crips, 18th Street, Hells Angels and various white supremacist groups -- have been identified on both domestic and international military bases.
...
There are no official statistics on gang membership in the military, but some experts have estimated that 1 to 2 percent of the U.S. military are gang members, FBI gang investigator Jennifer Simon said in a published article. It is believed that only .02 percent of the U.S. population are gang members.

"Gang membership in the U.S. Armed Forces is disproportional to the U.S. population," she added.

[Link: www.military.com...]

387 sergeant major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:17:59pm

.re: #384 jaunte

..47,000 Soldiers at Fort Hood with 40 Gang members WOW .000851 %
37,000 Soldiers at Ft. Bliss with 40 Gang members another WOW .001081%
You also failed to show that CID has been investigating these gangs and apprehending these individuals. Obviously "WE" are not turning a blind eye. The Us Army is Not a perfect organization just like any large cooperation we have our issues but I can assure you we deal with them accordingly

388 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:20:25pm

re: #384 jaunte

Gang Members in the Military (DoJ)
[Link: www.usdoj.gov...]
Gang activity on the rise in the ranks
[Link: www.navytimes.com...]

In the actual FBI report you quote above

[Link: www.militarytimes.com...]

(U//LES) The US Army Criminal Investigative Division (CID) has reported a modest increase in gang-related activity in the Army over the past several years. Of the 10,309 criminal incidents they investigated in 2006, for instance, only 16 were for gang-related offenses, up from four in 2003.

As you can see we are talking about 16 gang-related offenses for the entire year of 2006.

389 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:21:11pm

re: #387 sergeant major

The point I was making up at 263 is that there are a lot of people in the military that use it for their own purposes. Acknowledging a problem doesn't harm anyone.


Among the more serious cases are the murder of a soldier during a fight outside a nightclub at Fort Campbell, Ky.; a murder charge against a soldier related to a robbery near Fort Bragg, N.C.; a rape by a soldier at Camp Taji, Iraq; and five drug possession and dealing cases.

Gang crimes or suspected gang activity was reported at 18 bases in fiscal 2006, including three bases in Germany and two incidents in Iraq. In fiscal 2005, Army investigators had identified problems at 11 bases, including cases in Germany, Japan and Iraq.

The FBI notes shortcomings in the military’s tracking of gang incidents, in part because many are reported as “conduct matters” and handled internally. Their report identifies junior enlisted troops as the most likely to belong to gangs, but notes anecdotal evidence of gang membership “present in most branches and across all ranks.”
[Link: www.stripes.com...]

390 Mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:26:44pm

Rep John Porter (R) Onion, discusses HR 1277 gang prevention and community safeguard act .

391 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:37:58pm

re: #384 jaunte

oh and 16 out of 1083027 is .0014773% of gang related offenses in the year of 2006 doesn't sound like it is a wide spread problem to me.

392 Sergeant Major  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:38:14pm

re: #389 jaunte

You are correct there are individuals who join the military for the training then ETS and go back to their Gangs/Organizations and teach others what they've learned... what I am saying is that we do take great pride in the Military so when we do identify these individuals they are punished with jail time and being Chaptered. This problem is not a rampant as you may think.

393 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:40:05pm

re: #392 Sergeant Major

I'm glad the CID is working on it.

394 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:45:51pm

re: #384 jaunte

oh yah and do notice that they are talking about investigations and not actual convictions.

Sorry, but it would appear by your own supplied data that there is not a wide spread problem like these articles are trying to convey.

I agree with the SGM that the military must continue to be vigilant against this type of extremism, but the argument being made by you and others on this site is that the military has a significant problem with extremists in the ranks and some on here have even proposed that the parts of the chain of command are supporting it.

This is not true and the data doesn't support this thesis.

395 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 7:50:11pm

re: #394 lrsshadow

I'm not trying to support the thesis that there are 'significant numbers' of extremists in the ranks. The military has a criminal gang problem just like civilian society has a gang problem, and because of the training available, gang members have an active incentive to join. It is a significant problem not because of present numbers, but because of what it could develop into if it is not addressed.

396 Mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:00:59pm

re: #385 jaunte

Bullshit statistic alert in your link. A bad one.

There are no official statistics on gang membership in the military, but some experts have estimated that 1 percent to 2 percent of the U.S. military are gang members, Simon said. That compares with just 0.02 percent of the U.S. population believed to be gang members, she wrote.

“Gang membership in the U.S. armed forces is disproportional to the U.S. population,” she added.


Of course it is. There aren't any 80 year old grandmas or babies in the ranks of the military.

Some numbers. There are about 800,000 gang members in the USA. About 37% of them are 18-24 year olds, which is about 300,00 total. There are about 28 million Americans who are 18-24. So about 1% of them are gang members.

The 0.02% comparison is so far away from reality that it is obviously an attempt to smear by the use of misleading statistics. Or are they people pimping that bullshit really that dumb to be off by a factor of 50.

397 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:03:59pm

re: #396 Mich-again

You're right on that one, the FBI spokesperson is using a misleading comparison.

398 Mich-again  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:05:19pm

Forgot the links.. There are about 800,000 gang members in the USA. About 37% of them are 18-24 year olds, which is about 300,00 total. There are about 28 million Americans who are 18-24. So about 1% of them are gang members.

399 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:05:35pm

re: #395 jaunte

Oh well when you said in #263 "There are a lot of people in the military who use it for their own purposes." I thought you were in suggesting that there were a lot of extremists to include [Link: www.stripes.com...] as you linked to this in the same post.

I guess I didn't understand your point correctly?

400 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:08:05pm

re: #399 lrsshadow

I was responding to your statement that "it would be virtually impossible for extremest to survive and operate with-in the military force structure with-out being identified." The gang activity was a contrary example.

401 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:16:40pm

re: #400 jaunte

Well the data shows that only a hand full of investigations were conducted in 2006 (16 total Army wide) and proves my point entirely. They cannot survive and operate in the military other wise the statistics would show higher numbers than 16. CID did 10,309 investigations that year and only 16 were gang related.

Ok so it is up from 4 investigations in previous years, but it is far having anything other then a minor percentage of the total criminal investigations done in the military.

402 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:18:18pm

[Link: www.militarytimes.com...]

the link

403 jaunte  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:18:25pm

re: #401 lrsshadow

There's no problem then.

404 lrsshadow  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 8:19:42pm

re: #403 jaunte

cool then lets all take lunch then. we will see you in an hour. Good job everyone. :)

405 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:06:46pm

re: #372 iceweasel

No, you were claiming that 'some' people here wanted to abolish religion or some such bullshit.
When called on it you shut up.
You also were calling for various other ridiculous positions.
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

You are ungraceful in defeat.

406 Spare O'Lake  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 9:11:34pm

re: #374 PT Barnum

Girls, girls you're both pretty!

You made Jimmah jealous.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA

407 BARACK THE VOTE  Thu, Oct 15, 2009 10:49:19pm

re: #405 Spare O'Lake

You are ungraceful in defeat.

Ummm...

re: #406 Spare O'Lake

You made Jimmah jealous.
BWAHAHAHAHAHA

Quit digging, really. :-)

408 nccanuck  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 5:33:12am

re: #144 Guanxi88

Yea, but he said that back in 2004.He has had a lot of time to stew and Im sure with the crap Obama has been doing has pushed him to the edge. He is obviously not a right winger or left winger ...

409 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 4:01:31pm

re: #405 Spare O'Lake

You are ungraceful in defeat.

You are just trolling now.

"Lets see - how can I annoy iceweasel? I know! Declare victory even though I have been backpedalling furiously from the moment it dawned on me that my bullshit wasn't impressing anyone, and blatantly lying about it, even though it's all right here in black and white on this page. That'll work! Bwahahaha!"

I can almost imagine you jumping up and down on the spot in front of your pc, bursting with excitement at the thought that you might have prompted an emotional reaction from iceweasel, however negative and fleeting. The girls never did notice you in school, did they?

410 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 4:28:27pm

re: #409 Jimmah

You are just trolling now.

"Lets see - how can I annoy iceweasel? I know! Declare victory even though I have been backpedalling furiously from the moment it dawned on me that my bullshit wasn't impressing anyone, and blatantly lying about it, even though it's all right here in black and white on this page. That'll work! Bwahahaha!"

I can almost imagine you jumping up and down on the spot in front of your pc, bursting with excitement at the thought that you might have prompted an emotional reaction from iceweasel, however negative and fleeting. The girls never did notice you in school, did they?

How unseemly for you to spurt out such an impotent personal attack.

411 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 4:58:01pm

re: #410 Spare O'Lake

How unseemly for you to spurt out such an impotent personal attack.

Just describing your behaviour, and how you are coming across. If reading it distresses you, try behaving in a way that doesn't merit such a description.

This, on the other hand - is a straightforward and unmerited personal attack - from you:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Nice try, hypocrite. And btw - its obvious that you are just trolling in an attempt to build up prestige points for your arrival on some stalker site. Just thought I'd mention.

412 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 5:44:27pm

re: #411 Jimmah

Just describing your behaviour, and how you are coming across. If reading it distresses you, try behaving in a way that doesn't merit such a description.

This, on the other hand - is a straightforward and unmerited personal attack - from you:

[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Nice try, hypocrite. And btw - its obvious that you are just trolling in an attempt to build up prestige points for your arrival on some stalker site. Just thought I'd mention.

You are even creepier than I thought.

413 Ayeless in Ghazi  Fri, Oct 16, 2009 6:33:33pm

re: #412 Spare O'Lake

Another trollish comment. Pathetic, but entirely predictable.


This article has been archived.
Comments are closed.

Jump to top

Create a PageThis is the LGF Pages posting bookmarklet. To use it, drag this button to your browser's bookmark bar, and title it 'LGF Pages' (or whatever you like). Then browse to a site you want to post, select some text on the page to use for a quote, click the bookmarklet, and the Pages posting window will appear with the title, text, and any embedded video or audio files already filled in, ready to go.
Or... you can just click this button to open the Pages posting window right away.
Last updated: 2023-04-04 11:11 am PDT LGF User's Guide RSS Feeds

Help support Little Green Footballs!

Subscribe now for ad-free access!Register and sign in to a free LGF account before subscribing, and your ad-free access will be automatically enabled.

Donate with
PayPal Cash.app
Recent PagesClick to refresh