Racist Doc Appears As ‘Expert’ on Glenn Beck Show

On July 23 of this year, one of our threads was titled Disgusting Racist of the Day, and featured this ugly racist image circulated on a tea party mailing list by “activist” Dr. David McKalip.

Well, look who turned up as a “medical expert” on Glenn Beck’s Friday show attacking health care reform: Dr. David McKalip.

Welcome to the new right wing — where even outright racism isn’t enough to damage your credibility — where, in fact, you might even be rewarded for it with an appearance on the Glenn Beck Not-So-Funny Comedy Hour.

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425 comments

1 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:38:51am

Glen's a weasel who knows no shame. He was probably expecting this, and likes the publicity.

2 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:40:35am

I watched some of the video and it was just so obvious that it was an audience of political activists. I'm as nervous about healthcare reform as anyone else but the right has been so full of shit that I just don't pay attention to them anymore. The death panel thing was the last straw for me. Why should I trust this racist Tea Party activist to tell me about the dangers of reform? Isn't there someone more credible?

3 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:41:11am

Oh, dear me. What a sorry sight on a lovely Sunday morning!

4 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:41:30am

Quoting a portion of LVQ's comment in a previous thread:

That is how evil spreads in a society. It gets redefined. Special cases after special cases are made to justify the evil acts - and perhaps in isolated incidents, crossing the line was justified in a sober analysis. But the great mass of people don't do the sober analysis. They simply want vengeance and a traget for their hatreds and anger. For some it is a sort of morbid entertainment.

Those types get used to it. They come to crave it.

Then the boundaries of what is acceptable get pushed a little more and the practices of the society get a little more harsh and unreasonable in general. Then the cycle repeats. The oft over used slippery slope argument is not false. It too has lost meaning from sloppy over use.

It is not racist to "question" Obama on his religion or birthplace -> it is not racist to think that black people are taking over America illegitimately -> and imposing their will on you -> to do hateful things that you might do to them if you could -> to being a frothing paranoid racist.

5 Dar ul Harb  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:41:47am

Shaman on you, Glenn Beck!

6 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

I watched some of the video and it was just so obvious that it was an audience of political activists. I'm as nervous about healthcare reform as anyone else but the right has been so full of shit that I just don't pay attention to them anymore. The death panel thing was the last straw for me. Why should I trust this racist Tea Party activist to tell me about the dangers of reform? Isn't there someone more credible?

Hey, Kilgore. Good morning to you.

As to your question, who are they going to get a "credible spokesperson"? The AMA? They are backing reform.

7 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:42:50am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

I watched some of the video and it was just so obvious that it was an audience of political activists. I'm as nervous about healthcare reform as anyone else but the right has been so full of shit that I just don't pay attention to them anymore. The death panel thing was the last straw for me. Why should I trust this racist Tea Party activist to tell me about the dangers of reform? Isn't there someone more credible?

Thanks for catching this one Killgore. Normally, Sharmuta posts this next vid, but why should she have all the fun? This one's for you, Glen Beck:

8 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:42:53am

How anyone could not see the racism in that is beyond me.

9 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:44:24am

Reading through the comments on that original thread I posted is depressing. So many LGF readers who tried to argue this isn't a blatant, in your face racist image.

The good thing is that a lot of those people are not here any more -- they're posting at blogs where they encourage and applaud racism, which is where they belong.

10 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:45:06am

re: #8 MandyManners

How anyone could not see the racism in that is beyond me.

Selective blinders? Alternative 2 is that they are perfectly aware and approve.

11 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:45:43am

re: #5 Dar ul Harb

Shaman on you, Glenn Beck!

wow, long time no puns...

12 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:46:19am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

Why should I trust this racist Tea Party activist to tell me about the dangers of reform? Isn't there someone more credible?

That's exactly it, Killgore. There are people more credible than this bigot, but they're not selecting these people- oh no. They're selecting activists within the movement to promote as "experts". Now this guy will likewise be able to promote himself for events with "As seen on the Glenn Beck show!" under his name.

Beck and fox are opening promoting a political machine and a known racist operative. Disgusting. And people wonder why the White House has said enough. They're a moby network- now all they're doing is making the right look extremely ugly.

13 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:46:55am

re: #9 Charles

Reading through the comments on that original thread I posted is depressing. So many LGF readers who tried to argue this isn't a blatant, in your face racist image.

The good thing is that a lot of those people are not here any more -- they're posting at blogs where they encourage and applaud racism, which is where they belong.

It was indeed the thread where LGF changed. It took me a while to process the change, but looking back on it, I think the changes have been for the better. Thanks for holding the line on sanity, Charles.

14 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:47:54am

re: #10 austin_blue

Selective blinders? Alternative 2 is that they are perfectly aware and approve.

Wanting to believe the good in all makes me want to think the former. Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

15 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:48:33am

re: #6 austin_blue

Hey, Kilgore. Good morning to you.

As to your question, who are they going to get a "credible spokesperson"? The AMA? They are backing reform.

AARP as well. The lack of credible arguments and spokespeople opposing reform leads me to think it's probably a good thing.

16 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:49:26am

re: #14 MandyManners

Wanting to believe the good in all makes me want to think the former. Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

OK, but I don't think that Little Mary Sunshine actually drops the f-bomb quite that much.

/dives into bunker

17 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:50:23am

re: #13 Dark_Falcon

It was indeed the thread where LGF changed. It took me a while to process the change, but looking back on it, I think the changes have been for the better. Thanks for holding the line on sanity, Charles.

DF - same thing here.
I also think the changes are for the much better.
And also appreciate Charles' holding the line.

18 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:50:45am

re: #16 Dark_Falcon

OK, but I don't think that Little Mary Sunshine actually drops the f-bomb quite that much.

/dives into bunker

Hey, it's like the 'Mary Sunshine' song from Reefer Madness. She has an alter ego.

19 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:50:49am

re: #17 reine.de.tout

DF - same thing here.
I also think the changes are for the much better.
And also appreciate Charles' holding the line.

Same here.

20 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:52:50am

re: #19 Walter L. Newton

I had looked at LGF some time ago and had dismissed it as another rabid right wing blog based on the comments. A mention in Balloon-Juice let me to give LGF another shot.

I'm glad I did. Thanks to Charles for staying sane.

21 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:53:19am

re: #12 Sharmuta

That's exactly it, Killgore. There are people more credible than this bigot, but they're not selecting these people- oh no. They're selecting activists within the movement to promote as "experts". Now this guy will likewise be able to promote himself for events with "As seen on the Glenn Beck show!" under his name.

Beck and fox are opening promoting a political machine and a known racist operative. Disgusting. And people wonder why the White House has said enough. They're a moby network- now all they're doing is making the right look extremely ugly.

Sharmuta - you are so right.
I was looking at some other blogs yesterday. Any rational conservative or GOPer who does not toe the hard-core social-conservative line is being kicked under the bus as "RINO", or Democrat-in-Disguise, etc. Beck and company want those conservatives out of the party.

22 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:53:49am

Resolved: I will not watch one more second of the Silver Gopher's video antics. Seen enough to last me for a lifetime.

So these reports are crucial, because I won't go there myself.

23 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:53:56am

re: #7 Dark_Falcon

It's interesting to see the racist support network taking shape. The Tea Parties made no effort to prevent White Nationalists from recruiting at the Tea Parties and supported this racist doctor. Now Glenn Beck, who's fearful of Obama's attacks on "White Culture", gives him more dredibility. Hot Air, whose healthcare debate consists of Wookie jokes, obfuscates for Rush Limbaugh's racist comments. They're all supporting each other and the network of support seems to be growing.

24 yael  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:54:13am

re: #17 reine.de.tout

Same here. I lurk a lot and rarely post but thanks to Charles and to all the Lizards who hold the line for reasoned debate and defending worthwhile values.

25 Ojoe  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:54:37am

re: #15 Killgore Trout

Our society fails the compassion test if there is not some basic, simple program for even the last citizen.

It doesn't have to be fancy, and it doesn't have to bust the bank.

I do agree with your last statement there.

BBL

26 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:55:29am

re: #14 MandyManners

Wanting to believe the good in all makes me want to think the former. Just call me Little Miss Mary Fucking Sunshine.

Good morning LMMFS!

FWIW, I think ODS has made him all things to all whacks. To racists, he is a witch doctor with a bone in his nose. To the RR, he is a secret Muslim. To the Birchers, he is a secret communist.

Al three groups have one thing in common: No matter their personal kink, they all truly believe that the POTUS is hell-bent on destroying the America they know and love.

Remember when BDS was over the top? In many cases it absolutely was, but it was nothing like this in its sheer variety and virulence.

27 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:58:11am

re: #23 Killgore Trout

It's interesting to see the racist support network taking shape. The Tea Parties made no effort to prevent White Nationalists from recruiting at the Tea Parties and supported this racist doctor. Now Glenn Beck, who's fearful of Obama's attacks on "White Culture", gives him more dredibility. Hot Air, whose healthcare debate consists of Wookie jokes, obfuscates for Rush Limbaugh's racist comments. They're all supporting each other and the network of support seems to be growing.

That's a truly frightening thought, Killgore. It took a lot of effort to force racism into the closet and reduce it. To see it coming back in public makes me sick and fearful.

28 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:58:13am

re: #26 austin_blue

lets not start another BDS vs ODS thread lest we start another Hissy Fit..

29 Plato  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:58:36am

It's all about the evolution of the blogosphere and the evolution of political thought. For instance, I used to be far left. Then far right. For a time I believed to give the opposition a taste of their own medicine...to fight fire with fire.

Now, thanks to this site, I feel there's a place above the fray and the pendulum doesn't have to swing as far to one side as the other and backlash can be too nasty a lash.

30 armylaw  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:58:49am

re: #9 Charles

Let's stipulate that McKalip is a racist (the picture certainly makes that an almost inescapable conclusion). There still is the question of whether, nasty opinions notwithstanding, he knows anything about the economics of health care policy. Glenn Beck puts him on, and you're supposed to see "Oooo! A neurosurgeon! He must know how to fix healthcare!"

Life doesn't work that way, though. Just because he can fix brain and nerve problems doesn't mean he can handle the billing. That's why doctors hire lawyers and accountants to handle that stuff for them. So, frankly, I see no reason why Dr. McKalip's opinion carries any more weight than that of any other voter. He certainly has no special expertise.

31 erraticsphinx  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:59:17am

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That's exactly what it is, they're trying to legitimize racism.

32 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:59:39am

re: #26 austin_blue

Good morning LMMFS!

FWIW, I think ODS has made him all things to all whacks. To racists, he is a witch doctor with a bone in his nose. To the RR, he is a secret Muslim. To the Birchers, he is a secret communist.

Al three groups have one thing in common: No matter their personal kink, they all truly believe that the POTUS is hell-bent on destroying the America they know and love.

Remember when BDS was over the top? In many cases it absolutely was, but it was nothing like this in its sheer variety and virulence.

I also think part of the difference is in degree of what they can accomplish. There is DEFINITELY a violent element on the left (ELF/ALF, I'm looking at you...) but most of them are bloviating 20-somethings who want to be part of some sort of movement. So they read some communist thought, use a lot of big words about the man and exploitation and then go to Starbucks and order a venti half-caff in a nice, sterile environment far, far away from those "poor" and "exploited" people they're so concerned about.

They did a fine job of making themselves look really stupid and were definitely fringe parts of the culture and of American liberal politics.

These people have weapons and are getting flattering media coverage on a major nationwide network.

33 akarra  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 10:59:49am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

I watched some of the video and it was just so obvious that it was an audience of political activists. I'm as nervous about healthcare reform as anyone else but the right has been so full of shit that I just don't pay attention to them anymore. The death panel thing was the last straw for me. Why should I trust this racist Tea Party activist to tell me about the dangers of reform? Isn't there someone more credible?

There are plenty of people who are more credible, but you don't see their thought and arguments circulating very much at all. Megan McArdle at The Atlantic is against this current attempt at health care reform, and lays out her case based on the numbers, puts forth the arguments others are making, and asks questions when she doesn't know something. And the WSJ hasn't been bad at looking at the taxes potentially involved and the fishy numbers being put forth; there's a lot on the editorial page that's sound.

The amazing thing is that many don't care to hear any of this: many on the Right want to jump to "Obama = Hitler." I don't want to get into the arrogance of the Left here, because it is the Right that is my primary concern currently. But I can say that while that arrogance isn't as dangerous as the insanity on the Right, it isn't helping anything.

34 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:01:03am

re: #25 Ojoe

Our society fails the compassion test if there is not some basic, simple program for even the last citizen.

It doesn't have to be fancy, and it doesn't have to bust the bank.

I do agree with your last statement there.

BBL

Current state of the system first put in place in Louisiana in the mid- 1700's to care for the poor and uninsured.

It ain't perfect. But it's in place and has been for a long time, and it provides actual clinic care, not just ER care for the poor and uninsured.

35 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:01:32am

re: #33 akarra

There are plenty of people who are more credible, but you don't see their thought and arguments circulating very much at all. Megan McArdle at The Atlantic is against this current attempt at health care reform, and lays out her case based on the numbers, puts forth the arguments others are making, and asks questions when she doesn't know something. And the WSJ hasn't been bad at looking at the taxes potentially involved and the fishy numbers being put forth; there's a lot on the editorial page that's sound.

The amazing thing is that many don't care to hear any of this: many on the Right want to jump to "Obama = Hitler." I don't want to get into the arrogance of the Left here, because it is the Right that is my primary concern currently. But I can say that while that arrogance isn't as dangerous as the insanity on the Right, it isn't helping anything.

Obama = Hitler is a lot easier to understand than complex spreadsheets full of large numbers and formulas.

It's also easier to yell at a rally.

36 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:02:16am

re: #26 austin_blue

FWIW, I think ODS has made him all things to all whacks. To racists, he is a witch doctor with a bone in his nose. To the RR, he is a secret Muslim. To the Birchers, he is a secret communist.

You've hit the nail on the head here, this is indeed what's geling the crazy contingents together. I cannot last, for they will be at each other's throats as we head into elections. (Noteworthy symptom of this: In the KY primaries Nutball Alan Keyes is endorsing Johnson over the libtard Rand Paul bid. You'll see more of this to come)

37 erraticsphinx  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:02:46am

Fox News deserves to be excoriated on this, it's totally irresponsible.

But then again, it's Fox News. Though I do have to wonder what their defense will be for this one.

I bet it will include attacking MSNBC, CNN, ABC etc. Just a hunch.

38 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:03:43am

re: #35 ~Fianna

I've said this before...complexity is a liberal conspiracy

When your world view is digital rather than analog, complexity just makes your head hurt.

39 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:03:49am

re: #34 reine.de.tout

Current state of the system first put in place in Louisiana in the mid- 1700's to care for the poor and uninsured.

It ain't perfect. But it's in place and has been for a long time, and it provides actual clinic care, not just ER care for the poor and uninsured.

That might be a model that other states should look at, Reine. Thanks for that link.

I know we have little in the way of non-emergency care here for the indigent and uninsured. We have well infant coverage, but almost nothing for adults. That always seems silly. Yes, it's important to treat life-threatening emergencies, but isn't it a lot cheaper to treat someone's cold rather than wait until they have pneumonia and are near death?

40 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:04:55am

re: #27 Dark_Falcon

That's a truly frightening thought, Killgore. It took a lot of effort to force racism into the closet and reduce it. To see it coming back in public makes me sick and fearful.

It is disturbing but I think it's a self correcting problem. As the racism becomes more obvious the Republicans become less electable. They might make some small gains but this stuff doesn't go over well with the American public. I don't think they'll come back into power until they start to clean up.

41 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:05:32am

re: #38 PT Barnum

I've said this before...complexity is a liberal conspiracy

When your world view is digital rather than analog, complexity just makes your head hurt.

Most people's lives are complex enough. They're not interested or able to take the time to really understand things.

In theory, that's why we have the system we do. We're supposedly paying the idiots in Washington to really understand the issues and make good choices. Unfortunately, it stopped working that way a really long time ago.

42 Sharmuta  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:05:34am

Slightly off topic:

I found this interesting link to the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation. (Harry Bradley was a Bircher.)

Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation

This lists their issues, who they give money to, and under activities:

Bradley has supported and in some cases, had to defend controversial right-wing recipients of their grants, particularly Charles Murray and Dinesh D'Souza.
Charles Murray - Murray, author of "The Bell Curve," which argues that intelligence is predicated on race, and "Losing Ground," whose thesis is that social programs should be abolished. Murray's work was so controversial and objectionable that the right-wing Manhattan Institute, supported by Bradley and for which he worked, asked him to leave. However, the Bradley Foundation stood by him because Murray, according to former Bradley President Michael Joyce, "is one of the foremost social thinkers in the country." Bradley extended Murray's $100,000 per year grant when he went to the American Enterprise Institute.

The Bradley Foundation works in concert with a core of a few other foundations to fund various think tanks to spread their Bircher-laced message. That's why every "conservative" outlet for opinion is churning out the same message these days. Everyone is on board for the tea parties, when in reality everyone is on board with taking this front's money.

43 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:05:41am

re: #37 erraticsphinx

Fox News deserves to be excoriated on this, it's totally irresponsible.

But then again, it's Fox News. Though I do have to wonder what their defense will be for this one.

I bet it will include attacking MSNBC, CNN, ABC etc. Just a hunch.

Fox needs to fire Glen Beck. The don't realize it, but he hurts them each day he broadcasts. The sooner he is gone, the better.

44 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:06:51am

re: #34 reine.de.tout

Current state of the system first put in place in Louisiana in the mid- 1700's to care for the poor and uninsured.

It ain't perfect. But it's in place and has been for a long time, and it provides actual clinic care, not just ER care for the poor and uninsured.

Not just Louisiana, either. Check out Hawaii:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Oh, and it is *cheaper* than care on the mainland. Fancy that...

45 erraticsphinx  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:07:07am

re: #43 Dark_Falcon

All they see is the $$$

46 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:07:26am

re: #33 akarra

And the WSJ hasn't been bad at looking at the taxes potentially involved and the fishy numbers being put forth; there's a lot on the editorial page that's sound.


The WSJ op-ed pages lost me about 6 months ago. They've been pushing some of the worst conspiracy theories out there. It was a shame to see from such a credible paper. I just don't trust them anymore.

47 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:07:57am

re: #9 Charles

I hope this isn't unproductivly provoking, but, considering that LGF is definitively a sample of the more sane and moderate part of both the republican party and the conservative movement, does this make you think about the frequent and always highly controversial statements that a good portion of the opposition to Obama on the right is at least facilitated by racism if not outright racially motivated?
This is a good faith question. I personally am not sure of the answer.
Of course, there are a lot of good reasons to critizise Obama, but honestly, I'm not seeing a lot of well sourced and constructive criticism on the right.
But I guess there are several other emotional sources for right wing opposition.
On the one hand, I'm a bit suprised to see how widespread the racism and the almost equally bad blindness to racism is. On the other, that whole marxism/socialism meme seems to be (from my point of view) incredibly effective all by itself.
Also, the recession and the two wars mean that many people are genuinly bad off and therefore unhappy with those in charge.
And the shere hatred of "liberals" on the right always leaves me stunned.
So I don't know. There are a number of political and ideological reasons to oppose Obama from the right, and there's the weird red scare and the general chasm between left and right in America. But if there is so much racism, it is only reasonable to think it must have an effect, no?

48 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:09:03am

re: #40 Killgore Trout

It is disturbing but I think it's a self correcting problem. As the racism becomes more obvious the Republicans become less electable. They might make some small gains but this stuff doesn't go over well with the American public. I don't think they'll come back into power until they start to clean up.

It doesn't go over with real Republicans well either. Note that most of these are external forces ripping at the party as single issue groups. They are certainly well financed and loud, but I'm hoping this gets sidelined and marginalized as the Adult republicans start paying attention again when we get into election cycles. This Spring we will get into primaries, and that's when we need to regurgitate this encyclopedia of crazy. Also note that the Libs are not going to help on this. They will want the marginal Republican candidates to run for the Non-win.

49 Cato the Elder  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:09:47am

Meanwhile, in his analysis of why George Herbert Walker Bush called him and Rachel Maddow "sick puppies" for their mockery of the fruit of his loins, Keith Olbermann yesterday went off about the "scam" that "they" ran on Dan Rather.

Is that the accepted loonbat explanation for the fake memos now? They were planted by the right to punk Rather?

Hadn't heard that one.

50 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:10:11am

re: #37 erraticsphinx

Fox News deserves to be excoriated on this, it's totally irresponsible.

But then again, it's Fox News. Though I do have to wonder what their defense will be for this one.

I bet it will include attacking MSNBC, CNN, ABC etc. Just a hunch.

I would like to see an un-biased media but since that ain't gonna happen I would want to see as next best the way news is packaged in some other countries where you go to buy a paper & you can choose from the green party news, or the working party news or the conservative new etc., etc. might as well call it what it is and let the consumer decide what they want to read.

51 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:11:24am

re: #8 MandyManners

How anyone could not see the racism in that is beyond me.

Knowing nothing of the context in which the image first appeared, I took it (when it first showed up) to mean that ObamaCare was “witch doctor medicine,” meaning quackery, fake medicine, charlatanism.

And I thought using the term “witch doctor” was very little or no different than the term “voodoo economics,” which surely nobody called “racist” back when it was current, although I guess it would be a forbidden term today.

From BBC News [Link: news.bbc.co.uk...]

George Bush Senior famously called Mr. Reagan’s ideas “voodoo economics” before he became Vice President of the United States. While challenging Mr. Reagan in the Republican presidential primaries, he said he did not believe that supply-side reforms like ending regulation would be enough to rejuvenate the economy.

They say sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think sometimes words and pictures are just what they purport to be before evil intentions get glommed onto them.

52 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:11:28am

re: #45 erraticsphinx

All they see is the $$$

This is my big issue with major-corporation capitalism. It's hard to get a huge corporation to care about the consequences of their actions beyond the shareholder's bottom lines.

Smaller companies that are closer to the communities they operate in care because they live and work and raise their families in the community. They're more likely to make long-term decisions because they are operating with a multi-generational mindset, not a what's good for next quarter/what do the analysts want.

I think one of the ways America really went very wrong is writing policies that benefit mega-corporations over family-run businesses.

Small businesses in America employ far more people than mega-corporations, but they get shafted in terms of tax policy, bank policy, regulations and licensing. It's not just federal, it's all throughout government and it really irritates me.

53 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:11:52am

re: #30 armylaw

Let's stipulate that McKalip is a racist (the picture certainly makes that an almost inescapable conclusion). There still is the question of whether, nasty opinions notwithstanding, he knows anything about the economics of health care policy. Glenn Beck puts him on, and you're supposed to see "Oooo! A neurosurgeon! He must know how to fix healthcare!"

Life doesn't work that way, though. Just because he can fix brain and nerve problems doesn't mean he can handle the billing. That's why doctors hire lawyers and accountants to handle that stuff for them. So, frankly, I see no reason why Dr. McKalip's opinion carries any more weight than that of any other voter. He certainly has no special expertise.

The bigger question, though, is how this outright racist who's been the subject of national news stories was able to get on the Glenn Beck show in the first place. Did Glenn Beck's handlers pick him because of the racist image?

54 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:12:33am

re: #49 Cato the Elder

Meanwhile, in his analysis of why George Herbert Walker Bush called him and Rachel Maddow "sick puppies" for their mockery of the fruit of his loins, Keith Olbermann yesterday went off about the "scam" that "they" ran on Dan Rather.

Is that the accepted loonbat explanation for the fake memos now? They were planted by the right to punk Rather?

Hadn't heard that one.

You hadn't heard? Charles planted those memos, just so he could get famous by debunking them! He is that clever!

///

55 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:13:06am

re: #39 ~Fianna

That might be a model that other states should look at, Reine. Thanks for that link.

I know we have little in the way of non-emergency care here for the indigent and uninsured. We have well infant coverage, but almost nothing for adults. That always seems silly. Yes, it's important to treat life-threatening emergencies, but isn't it a lot cheaper to treat someone's cold rather than wait until they have pneumonia and are near death?

Fianna - I'm amazed, actually, that one or more of Louisiana's congress-critters hasn't held this up as an alternative to National HealthCare.

This has the advantage of being customizable for the needs of each state, rather than a "one-size-fits-all" sort of thing that National Health Care would be.

I sometimes wonder if the reason this system gets no attention is because it comes from the dreaded backwoods of Louisiana, and so of course, it can't possibly be worth looking at (heavy heavy sarcasm!).

56 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:13:26am

re: #51 nonic

I would bet you'd defend Rush Limbaugh's "Why don't you take that bone out of your nose?" repartee as non racist as well.

57 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:13:58am

Wow. We still have people around who can look at that image and make excuses for it, apparently.

58 erraticsphinx  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:14:21am

re: #51 nonic

You don't see the problem in making the first black president a witch doctor?

You need a new prescription. He has a bone through his nose, for pete's sake.

59 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:14:34am

re: #53 Charles

Did Glenn Beck's handlers pick him because of the racist image?


I suspect it was a factor.

60 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:14:50am

re: #51 nonic

Using a photoshop image of a black man with a bone through his nose is racist. It's an attempt to deride the man as a primitive because of his race.

61 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:15:04am

re: #44 austin_blue

Not just Louisiana, either. Check out Hawaii:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Oh, and it is *cheaper* than care on the mainland. Fancy that...

Well, there you go! Another alternative!

62 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:15:10am

re: #55 reine.de.tout

Fianna - I'm amazed, actually, that one or more of Louisiana's congress-critters hasn't held this up as an alternative to National HealthCare.

This has the advantage of being customizable for the needs of each state, rather than a "one-size-fits-all" sort of thing that National Health Care would be.

I sometimes wonder if the reason this system gets no attention is because it comes from the dreaded backwoods of Louisiana, and so of course, it can't possibly be worth looking at (heavy heavy sarcasm!).

There is one proposal, but I can't remember who introduced it. It was covered on NPR's Marketplace show. I know it was a Wednesday or Friday because I was driving to school, but I can't remember which week it was.

I'm googling now, if I find a link, I'll post it.

63 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:15:25am

re: #26 austin_blue

Good morning LMMFS!

Al three groups have one thing in common: No matter their personal kink, they all truly believe that the POTUS is hell-bent on destroying the America they know and love.
.

For some reason this reminded me of THIS--yes, I'm in a Reefer Madness mood this morning.

Lecturer:
Creeping like a communist, it's knocking at our doors
Turning all our children into hooligans and whores
Voraciously devouring the way things are today
Savagely deflowering the good ol' U.S.A.
It's Reefer Madness, Reefer Madness
(Reefer Madness, Reefer Madness)
Oh so mad!

See the kids! Precious kids!
Yes, their heads are on the chopping block
and someone's got to dare to take a stand
Can't ignore any more, it could be your son or daughter
With a deadly stick of reefer in their hand!
They're heading straight for
Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness!
Save our kids!

Stealthy as a socialist, it slithers up our shores
Turning all our children into hooligans and whores!
This smoking bowl of evil bears the choking stench of sin!
It burrows like a weevil under tender Christian skin!
This...
Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness!
Oh so mad!

Pull the wool from your eyes!
We're in need of righteous soliders
for this merry wonder has to be destroyed!
Fight the urge of this scourge! It's destructive but seductive!
So some drastic measures need to be employed!
To put and end to...
Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness!
Oh so mad!

Deadly as the Democrats that empty out our stores!
Turning all our children into hooligans and whores!
Teenagers across the land are glazed and oversexed
If you fail to draw the line, your babies will be next!
Oh! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness! Reefer Madness!
Oh so mad!

Tell your children! (Reefer Madness)
Fight the menace! (Reefer Madness)
Kill the Devil! (Reefer Madness)
Save the country! (Reefer Madness)
Madness! Madness! Madness! Madness! Reefer's made us crazy barking...
Mad!

64 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:15:39am

Nonic, I'm going to be blunt here: you sicken me by trying to make excuses for this.

65 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:16:39am

re: #56 Thanos

I would bet you'd defend Rush Limbaugh's "Why don't you take that bone out of your nose?" repartee as non racist as well.

If you read what I said, I was not defending the image as non-racist. I was saying that when it first appeared, and I knew nothing of the context, or tha author or anything else, I took simply the image itself at face value and saw it as referring to "witch doctor medicine," which reminded me of "voodoo economics."

66 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:17:49am

re: #65 nonic

what context did you discover later on that made you change your mind?

67 William Barnett-Lewis  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:17:51am

re: #46 Killgore Trout

The WSJ op-ed pages lost me about 6 months ago. They've been pushing some of the worst conspiracy theories out there. It was a shame to see from such a credible paper. I just don't trust them anymore.

Well, stop and remember who now owns them? And Fox? Is it any real wonder?

William

68 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:17:54am

re: #32 ~Fianna

I also think part of the difference is in degree of what they can accomplish. There is DEFINITELY a violent element on the left (ELF/ALF, I'm looking at you...) but most of them are bloviating 20-somethings who want to be part of some sort of movement. So they read some communist thought, use a lot of big words about the man and exploitation and then go to Starbucks and order a venti half-caff in a nice, sterile environment far, far away from those "poor" and "exploited" people they're so concerned about.

They did a fine job of making themselves look really stupid and were definitely fringe parts of the culture and of American liberal politics.

These people have weapons and are getting flattering media coverage on a major nationwide network.

ELF aside, my perception is that the American Left can provide able assistance to screw things up overseas. The American Right appears to be ready and willing to do the same at home.

69 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #65 nonic

If you read what I said, I was not defending the image as non-racist. I was saying that when it first appeared, and I knew nothing of the context, or tha author or anything else, I took simply the image itself at face value and saw it as referring to "witch doctor medicine," which reminded me of "voodoo economics."

You say you weren't defending it as non-racist, but my question to you, are you saying you didn't see the racism in it? Yes, no?

70 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:18:22am

re: #64 Thanos

Nonic, I'm going to be blunt here: you sicken me by trying to make excuses for this.

And Nonic's no virgin here. Over 9.000 comments. Still hopefully he sees that crap as it really is and stays around. He hasn't been around much lately, and another regular poster would be welcome, if that person is sane (not insinuating anything).

71 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:18:24am

re: #51 nonic

I didn't know GHW Bush was African-American.

72 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:19:40am

re: #57 Charles

Wow. We still have people around who can look at that image and make excuses for it, apparently.

I didn’t make excuses for it. I was responding to Mandy’s “how could anyone not see it as racist,” and explaining how, not knowing anything of its context, I initially took it at face value and related it to the use of the term “voodoo economics.”

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:19:58am

re: #39 ~Fianna

That might be a model that other states should look at, Reine. Thanks for that link.

I know we have little in the way of non-emergency care here for the indigent and uninsured. We have well infant coverage, but almost nothing for adults. That always seems silly. Yes, it's important to treat life-threatening emergencies, but isn't it a lot cheaper to treat someone's cold rather than wait until they have pneumonia and are near death?

Especially since, having saved money on not treating the cold, we are not not only paying for emergency pneumonia treatment, we're paying for foster care for the infant with coverage, whose mom now can't get out of bed. We're losing money, and people's lives are being damaged.

74 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:20:14am

re: #65 nonic

And I spit in your general direction for continuing to try to diminish this with a tu quoque argument that does not apply.

75 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:20:52am

re: #51 nonic

They say sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I think sometimes words and pictures are just what they purport to be before evil intentions get glommed onto them.

Ah. That explains the Bush campaign photo of Reagan with a bone in his nose. Remember that?

///

76 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:21:04am

re: #44 austin_blue

Not just Louisiana, either. Check out Hawaii:

[Link: www.nytimes.com...]

Oh, and it is *cheaper* than care on the mainland. Fancy that...

Hawaii also has a very large tax burden and in serious deficit land, and the cost of living is high because of high business costs.

The NYT article sure did put a positive light on it.

77 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:22:01am

re: #72 nonic

I didn’t make excuses for it. I was responding to Mandy’s “how could anyone not see it as racist,” and explaining how, not knowing anything of its context, I initially took it at face value and related it to the use of the term “voodoo economics.”

When I first saw it, I saw racist, funny how that works.

78 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:22:11am

re: #72 nonic

I didn’t make excuses for it. I was responding to Mandy’s “how could anyone not see it as racist,” and explaining how, not knowing anything of its context, I initially took it at face value and related it to the use of the term “voodoo economics.”

I'm gonna' choose to think that you're naive.

79 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:23:11am

re: #72 nonic

again, what do you mean by context? You knew it was Obama with a bone through his nose as a criticism of his health care proposal. What context did you discover later on?

80 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:23:49am

re: #72 nonic

again, what do you mean by context? You knew it was Obama with a bone through his nose as a criticism of his health care proposal. What context did you discover later on?

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:24:19am

re: #76 BigPapa

Hawaii also has a very large tax burden and in serious deficit land, and the cost of living is high because of high business costs.

The NYT article sure did put a positive light on it.

Hawaii's physical location pretty much ensures that, however, I would think.

82 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:24:20am

re: #80 suchislife

sorry. still learning!

83 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:24:28am

re: #76 BigPapa

Hawaii also has a very large tax burden and in serious deficit land, and the cost of living is high because of high business costs.

The NYT article sure did put a positive light on it.

Louisiana's system must be working OK, then, because we have a low cost-of-living and a low state tax burden.

The only thing that "bothers" me is in any report comparing the number of public employees in La. with other states, the La. number will include the folks in the healthcare system for which there is no corresponding agency in other states. So the numbers are always skewed as "high".

84 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:26:00am

re: #51 nonic

How lovely. An actual apologist. I am sorry but there is now way you can argue that point and come out on the other side with any sort of credibility.

85 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:26:32am

re: #58 erraticsphinx

You don't see the problem in making the first black president a witch doctor?

You need a new prescription. He has a bone through his nose, for pete's sake.

Well, I’ll tell you --- and I know this will put me on dangerous ground --- I think if we continually focus on Obama’s racial heritage, we will never get to the “post racial” society that he himself says he wants.

I saw a youtube interview with Samuel L. Jackson and somebody, and the somebody asked him how we get past race. Jackson answered (paraphrased), if you want to get past race, stop calling me a black man, stop calling yourself a white man, just accept us all as people.

Maybe I need to apologize for it, but I agree with that philosophy. And you know, I think Obama does, too.

86 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:26:40am

re: #51 nonic

Knowing nothing of the context in which the image first appeared

The ONLY "content" in which this could even sqeeze by as not being racistis IF Obama willfully was contracted by a costume compnay to promote a new line of "The Worst Halloween Costumes Ever' and willfully agreed to wear it and willfully agreed to be photographed in it

Even then ,,, it's a stretch!

87 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:27:31am

...if I may interrupt for a moment...

I'd like to apologize for a post I made on the thread last night, the one which drifted off into discussion of harsh interrogation techniques. I want to say so here, rather than on the dead thread. I got caught up in the proverbial heat of the moment, and lofted a hanging insinuation impugning the basic humanity of several people here. Won't say I haven't done it before, nor that it won't happen again, but I'm usually better than that.

88 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:27:47am

re: #26 austin_blue

Remember when BDS was over the top? In many cases it absolutely was, but it was nothing like this in its sheer variety and virulence.

Actually it's oneupmanship every new admin that comes along. I became politically aware during the time just before GW1 so I saw all through the Clinton years. Being conservative I was frequently opposed to his policies and fan club, but it was clear to me that there was a strain of CDS. It seemed BDS took it to another level partially driven by some feelings of payback.

And now we have ODS. It seems apparent that ODS will enter new realms of craven partisanship and zealotry when I though BDS could not be outdone.

I shudder to think post Obama what the environment will be like.

89 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:28:41am

re: #85 nonic

Well, I’ll tell you --- and I know this will put me on dangerous ground --- I think if we continually focus on Obama’s racial heritage, we will never get to the “post racial” society that he himself says he wants.

I saw a youtube interview with Samuel L. Jackson and somebody, and the somebody asked him how we get past race. Jackson answered (paraphrased), if you want to get past race, stop calling me a black man, stop calling yourself a white man, just accept us all as people.

Maybe I need to apologize for it, but I agree with that philosophy. And you know, I think Obama does, too.

I agree with Samuel L. Jackson.
But the person who created that image obviously, it seems to me, set out to play up the "black man" aspect of Obama's heritage. The image is racist because the person who created intended it to be so.

90 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:28:57am

re: #74 Thanos

OK, have to go look that one up...

91 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:29:34am

re: #85 nonic

Well, I’ll tell you --- and I know this will put me on dangerous ground --- I think if we continually focus on Obama’s racial heritage, we will never get to the “post racial” society that he himself says he wants.
I saw a youtube interview with Samuel L. Jackson and somebody, and the somebody asked him how we get past race. Jackson answered (paraphrased), if you want to get past race, stop calling me a black man, stop calling yourself a white man, just accept us all as people.

Maybe I need to apologize for it, but I agree with that philosophy. And you know, I think Obama does, too.

That's why decent people don't photoshop racist images.

92 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:29:41am

re: #86 sattv4u2

Knowing nothing of the context in which the image first appeared

The ONLY "content" in which this could even sqeeze by as not being racistis IF Obama willfully was contracted by a costume compnay to promote a new line of "The Worst Halloween Costumes Ever' and willfully agreed to wear it and willfully agreed to be photographed in it

Even then ,,, it's a stretch!

No, that would merely suggest to me that the President has been dropping acid, which would worry me quite a lot, given the amount of responsibility he has.

93 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:30:10am

re: #87 The Sanity Inspector

...if I may interrupt for a moment...

I'd like to apologize for a post I made on the thread last night, the one which drifted off into discussion of harsh interrogation techniques. I want to say so here, rather than on the dead thread. I got caught up in the proverbial heat of the moment, and lofted a hanging insinuation impugning the basic humanity of several people here. Won't say I haven't done it before, nor that it won't happen again, but I'm usually better than that.

Apology accepted. Thank you for doing the decent thing.

94 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:30:11am

re: #60 Dark_Falcon

Using a photoshop image of a black man with a bone through his nose is racist. It's an attempt to deride the man as a primitive because of his race.

That is the interpretation that I understand people have come to take as being THE "meaning" of the image. I was explaining (in response to Mandy's direct question) how I, personally, initially saw it.

95 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:30:24am

re: #90 BigPapa

OK, have to go look that one up...

I have to look it up every time.
too complicated for me

96 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:31:10am

re: #85 nonic

Well, I’ll tell you --- and I know this will put me on dangerous ground --- I think if we continually focus on Obama’s racial heritage, we will never get to the “post racial” society that he himself says he wants.

I saw a youtube interview with Samuel L. Jackson and somebody, and the somebody asked him how we get past race. Jackson answered (paraphrased), if you want to get past race, stop calling me a black man, stop calling yourself a white man, just accept us all as people.

Maybe I need to apologize for it, but I agree with that philosophy. And you know, I think Obama does, too.

No. You don't agree with that philosophy. You are using that philosophy, which is about being color blind, as an excuse for blatant racism. You are basically trying to hide behind Samuel L Jackson (something I think Mr Jackson would not like very much at all) while defending a picture which has EVERYTHING to do with race.

Why not portray the president as a mad scientist in the classic sense. You know, that would have worked much better since it wouldn't have been so full of signals of The Dangerous Black Man.

No. I refuse to discuss this further. You don't have a leg to stand on. There is no point you could possibly make that could defend this. Ever.

97 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:31:22am

re: #88 BigPapa

I shudder to think post Obama what the environment will be like.

/PDS? HDS? BDS?

98 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:32:20am

re: #87 The Sanity Inspector

...if I may interrupt for a moment...

I'd like to apologize for a post I made on the thread last night, the one which drifted off into discussion of harsh interrogation techniques. I want to say so here, rather than on the dead thread. I got caught up in the proverbial heat of the moment, and lofted a hanging insinuation impugning the basic humanity of several people here. Won't say I haven't done it before, nor that it won't happen again, but I'm usually better than that.

I appreciate that. We talk about strong stuff here sometimes, and it can come as a shock to everyone when we veer from "Glenn Beck is a loser" to something truly polarizing.

I think it is an amazing testament to the group we have here, and our host, that we continue to try to honestly discuss such things.

99 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:32:27am

re: #2 Killgore Trout

There probably is, but if they refuse to tow the party line with Obama bashing, they'll be ignored and/or shouted down.

Conversely, the anti-war activists who aren't rabid Israel haters are routinely ignored and excluded at ANSWER rallies and are never quoted in the media.

100 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:32:28am

re: #94 nonic

That is the interpretation that I understand people have come to take as being THE "meaning" of the image. I was explaining (in response to Mandy's direct question) how I, personally, initially saw it.

Some people do have problems recognizing racism, which, in this day and age, is sad. That's why we keep talking about it and pointing it out.

101 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:32:52am

re: #64 Thanos

Nonic, I'm going to be blunt here: you sicken me by trying to make excuses for this.

Well, it is your prerogative to be sickened, but I think you are not understanding what I am saying.

102 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:33:40am

re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist

No, that would merely suggest to me that the President has been dropping acid, which would worry me quite a lot, given the amount of responsibility he has.

Barack timothy leary Obama
/

103 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:33:50am

The history after the email made the rounds is interesting too. At first McKalip diminished it as a "Lapse in judgement" and that it was only being furthered by "powerful enemies." Later the outcry grew enough that he made a direct apology to President Obama.

It's highly typical of racists to immediately adopt a "I'm the real victim" stance when they get challenged on their unacceptable behavior. I know this from experience.

104 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:33:53am

re: #94 nonic

nonic, stop it. You're going in the same direction Iron Fist went in. He got banned when he refused to see reality. Don't keep up trying to call that photoshop anything other than what it is. It's racist. Period.

105 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:34:06am

re: #101 nonic

Well, it is your prerogative to be sickened, but I think you are not understanding what I am saying.

It appears to me, consider the general consensus, that we do understand exactly what you are saying, and find a really big problem with it.

106 Nervous Norvous  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:34:19am

re: #89 reine.de.tout

When I was 12 or 13, I was at a movie with my dad and a lady sat in front of us with an enormous Afro. I pointed it out and my dad said something I'll never forget "Son, they're just people"

I've tried to live by that principle ever since, though I will admit I've forgotten that a few times, which I'm not proud of.

107 rurality  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:34:32am

re: #72 nonic

one is an image of a human being...the other is a concept. I don't see any way t equate the two.

108 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:34:36am

re: #88 BigPapa

Actually it's oneupmanship every new admin that comes along. I became politically aware during the time just before GW1 so I saw all through the Clinton years. Being conservative I was frequently opposed to his policies and fan club, but it was clear to me that there was a strain of CDS. It seemed BDS took it to another level partially driven by some feelings of payback.

And now we have ODS. It seems apparent that ODS will enter new realms of craven partisanship and zealotry when I though BDS could not be outdone.

I shudder to think post Obama what the environment will be like.

I think you're right, in that there is an increasing feeling of 'payback'. During the worst of the BDS years, while people wailed about how no president had ever been treated like this, this Democrat's feelings were basically, "so, you can dish it out, but you can't take it, huh?" Now I'm seeing the same response from conservatives in regard to ODS.

This isn't healthy. We should probably figure out a way to stop.

109 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:34:57am

re: #96 enoughalready

No. You don't agree with that philosophy. You are using that philosophy, which is about being color blind, as an excuse for blatant racism. You are basically trying to hide behind Samuel L Jackson (something I think Mr Jackson would not like very much at all) while defending a picture which has EVERYTHING to do with race.

Why not portray the president as a mad scientist in the classic sense. You know, that would have worked much better since it wouldn't have been so full of signals of The Dangerous Black Man.

No. I refuse to discuss this further. You don't have a leg to stand on. There is no point you could possibly make that could defend this. Ever.

Dr. Frankenstein, perhaps.

110 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:35:32am

re: #103 Thanos

The history after the email made the rounds is interesting too. At first McKalip diminished it as a "Lapse in judgement" and that it was only being furthered by "powerful enemies." Later the outcry grew enough that he made a direct apology to President Obama.

It's highly typical of racists to immediately adopt a "I'm the real victim" stance when they get challenged on their unacceptable behavior. I know this from experience.

Generally they try the "I'm the real victim" (aka the Limbaugh gambit) right after they've tried the "politically incorrect" defense (aka teh stupid).

111 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:35:35am

re: #109 MandyManners

Dr. Frankenstein, perhaps.

Well ,,, we came close

Johm Kerry is kinda Lurchish!!

/

112 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:36:11am

I wonder if anyone ever checked to see if that photoshop violated copyright laws.

113 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:36:39am

re: #83 reine.de.tout

Louisiana's system must be working OK, then, because we have a low cost-of-living and a low state tax burden.

The only thing that "bothers" me is in any report comparing the number of public employees in La. with other states, the La. number will include the folks in the healthcare system for which there is no corresponding agency in other states. So the numbers are always skewed as "high".

It's a fairly complex equation and the article about HI barely touched on a few factors. HI has a large government work force for military support and contracting influences. The other significant factors include a multitude of different ethnic groups and their health habits, a peaceful place to live with very good weather, many people work two low paying jobs instead of one better paying job in service industries tied to massive leisure/travel, etc.

I don't think the article was a shill job or sell piece but it started with a simplistic premise. Having come from CA to HI I really don't see why HI is being touted as some kind of 'hey, it works great here' state, unless CA is one as well.

114 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:37:05am

re: #99 eclectic infidel

There probably is, but if they refuse to tow the party line with Obama bashing, they'll be ignored and/or shouted down.

Conversely, the anti-war activists who aren't rabid Israel haters are routinely ignored and excluded at ANSWER rallies and are never quoted in the media.

Back in the early days of the Iraq war, Rabbi Michael Lerner was removed from an ANSWER speaker's list because he identifies as a Zionist. To give you an idea.

115 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:37:29am

I wouldn't worry that much. This racist was preaching to the choir: Glenn Beck viewers are already foaming at the mouth about socialist healthcare, communism, and Obama.
What does worries me - and puzzles me to no end - is why do so many people like Beck, follow him, and consider him a hero. My guess is that he's the kind of guy they'd had a beer with (just like, in a much less crazy way, George W. Bush was the candidate to have a beer with), as opposed to those smart-looking (although clueless) CNN types, with all their fancy words and good spelling.

Take this as a question, please, I mean no offense: why do so many Americans look up to people who are clearly intellectually limited? I get that they want someone to confirm them in their fears, beliefs, and prejudices (maybe I'm wrong here, too), but don't they enjoy having a smart guy on TV or the radio, giving them a well-thought analysis, like William Buckley Jr (to use a conservative intellectual)? I by no means want to generalize (and I know lizards are not Glenn Beck fans), but the crying bag of crazy's seems to be the highest-rating show on teevee.

116 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:38:30am

re: #66 suchislife

what context did you discover later on that made you change your mind?

Frankly, I know nothing more about it than I did initially. The only place I have SEEN the image is here. Now, however, I understand that there is a consensus that the image is highly offensive and apparently intended to be insulting to Obama personally.

I accept that interpretation as the prevailing opinion.

Again, I was merely saying what my own personal initial reaction was when I first saw it.

117 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:38:59am

re: #115 mikhailtheplumber

I wouldn't worry that much. This racist was preaching to the choir: Glenn Beck viewers are already foaming at the mouth about socialist healthcare, communism, and Obama.
What does worries me - and puzzles me to no end - is why do so many people like Beck, follow him, and consider him a hero. My guess is that he's the kind of guy they'd had a beer with (just like, in a much less crazy way, George W. Bush was the candidate to have a beer with), as opposed to those smart-looking (although clueless) CNN types, with all their fancy words and good spelling.

Take this as a question, please, I mean no offense: why do so many Americans look up to people who are clearly intellectually limited? I get that they want someone to confirm them in their fears, beliefs, and prejudices (maybe I'm wrong here, too), but don't they enjoy having a smart guy on TV or the radio, giving them a well-thought analysis, like William Buckley Jr (to use a conservative intellectual)? I by no means want to generalize (and I know lizards are not Glenn Beck fans), but the crying bag of crazy's seems to be the highest-rating show on teevee.

If it bleeds, it leads.

118 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:39:17am

re: #104 Dark_Falcon

nonic, stop it. You're going in the same direction Iron Fist went in. He got banned when he refused to see reality. Don't keep up trying to call that photoshop anything other than what it is. It's racist. Period.

Okay, I'll stop right now. Sorry I upset people.

119 pegcity  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:39:24am

wow, that is so racist.

120 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:39:47am

re: #118 nonic

Okay, I'll stop right now. Sorry I upset people.

Apology accepted.

121 dugmartsch  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:39:49am

This giants game is crazy.

122 Walter L. Newton  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:39:52am

re: #116 nonic

Frankly, I know nothing more about it than I did initially. The only place I have SEEN the image is here. Now, however, I understand that there is a consensus that the image is highly offensive and apparently intended to be insulting to Obama personally.

I accept that interpretation as the prevailing opinion.

Again, I was merely saying what my own personal initial reaction was when I first saw it.

Do you agree with the consensus?

123 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:40:15am

re: #117 MandyManners

If it bleeds, it leads.

And if it cries, it lies?

(Yes, cheap. But what can you expect on a slightly depressing Sunday?)

124 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:40:20am

re: #96 enoughalready

I actually don't necessarily agree with that. I think it's possible to live a large part (or all) of your life as a white person actually thinking that racism hardly exists anymore and that therefore mentioning it or race will only worsen the small problem. You have to be a bit naive, and live in a predominantly white enviroment, or a minority and fiercly determined to not see yourself as a victim ever, but I believe it can be done by well-meaning people. I'm not sure that post is a strategic use of the ideal of a post-racial society. But I also believe that an adult in America has the responsibility to inform himself enough to know better.

125 dentate  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:40:23am

12 years ago when McKalip was a resident he ran a neurosurgery listserv and was an up and coming star. Had quite a few discussions with him about professional stuff in those days. Lord knows I have my issues with Obamacare, mainly with its utter failure to address waste and tort reform, but it is unnerving to see a bright guy like McKalip associating himself with this crowd. It is so completely unnecessary, it detracts from more effective arguments, and it's embarrassing to see one's colleagues doing this. Interesting contrast with Sanjay Gupta, also a neurosurgeon--not a peep out of him. I guess some people already have the attention, others will do anything to get it.

126 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:41:02am

re: #115 mikhailtheplumber

I wouldn't worry that much. This racist was preaching to the choir: Glenn Beck viewers are already foaming at the mouth about socialist healthcare, communism, and Obama.
What does worries me - and puzzles me to no end - is why do so many people like Beck, follow him, and consider him a hero. My guess is that he's the kind of guy they'd had a beer with (just like, in a much less crazy way, George W. Bush was the candidate to have a beer with), as opposed to those smart-looking (although clueless) CNN types, with all their fancy words and good spelling.

Take this as a question, please, I mean no offense: why do so many Americans look up to people who are clearly intellectually limited? I get that they want someone to confirm them in their fears, beliefs, and prejudices (maybe I'm wrong here, too), but don't they enjoy having a smart guy on TV or the radio, giving them a well-thought analysis, like William Buckley Jr (to use a conservative intellectual)? I by no means want to generalize (and I know lizards are not Glenn Beck fans), but the crying bag of crazy's seems to be the highest-rating show on teevee.

I didn't vote for George Bush, didn't much care for most of his work, was against a full-scale invasion of Iraq, (most of the time), and thought he dropped the ball in a humiliating and horrifying way on Katrina.

I would be happy to have lunch with him, or have him as a neighbor. He seems like a pleasant, rational, and friendly person.

Glenn Beck on the other hand...no. No beer. No lunch. No neighbor. My God. Can you imagine dealing with a grown man who's crying because your dog peed on his bushes.

127 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:41:36am

re: #121 dugmartsch

This giants game is crazy.

Yep. We'll see if the Saints can use their fumble recovery to score.

128 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:41:38am

re: #87 The Sanity Inspector

I have no idea if I was on the receiving end of any parry but I appreciate somebody who apologizes and makes amends. It's the honorable thing to do.

129 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:42:01am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yep. We'll see if the Saints can use their fumble recovery to score.

Didn't have to wait long!

130 Right Brain  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:42:13am

I had this thought prior to seeing Lewis Black in person last Tuesday in Sag Harbor, but it was confirmed by watching Black intently for 90 minutes.

Glenn Beck is a young Lewis Black.

Lewis Black last Tuesday said that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid should be replaced by two six year olds dressed up as them in Halloween costumes. He bashed the Democrats all night long. He just swore more.

131 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:42:36am

re: #124 suchislife

Generally I find that people who think that racism is dead or close to non-existent are the same people who start their sentences with "I'm no racist but...".

But hey, what do I know.

132 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:42:41am

re: #127 Dark_Falcon

Yep. We'll see if the Saints can use their fumble recovery to score.

And they can: Reggie Bush runs it in for the score! Saints lead at the half 34-17.

133 dugmartsch  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:43:41am

re: #129 sattv4u2

Didn't have to wait long!

Booo.

Thought the giants might get a make up call for the fantom collarbone and pass interference calls.

Also, pay your referees NFL. Shame on you.

134 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:45:00am

re: #116 nonic

that's what I thought. And you know, I believe that finding an enviroment that seems generally sane and on the mark and then letting it correct some of one's opinions, allowing people you respect to convince you, is exactly the right thing to do.

135 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:45:55am

Nonic: I think it takes a stretch, but just in case you are just ignorant of what ethnic stereotyping is, start Here and poke through a few articles.

The picture of our President with a bone through his nose practicing voodoo is every bit as offensive as a cartoon of a Jew with large hooked nose and fangs slavering over a bowl of blood would be.

136 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:46:26am

re: #123 enoughalready

And if it cries, it lies?

(Yes, cheap. But what can you expect on a slightly depressing Sunday?)


Chin up.

137 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:46:45am

re: #108 SanFranciscoZionist

I think you're right, in that there is an increasing feeling of 'payback'. During the worst of the BDS years, while people wailed about how no president had ever been treated like this, this Democrat's feelings were basically, "so, you can dish it out, but you can't take it, huh?" Now I'm seeing the same response from conservatives in regard to ODS.

This isn't healthy. We should probably figure out a way to stop.

Not to take away from the premise but there must be a correlation to the amount if Internet service availability and blogs. Now that anybody who's anybody has an ISP and many people blog or take part in them about their interests the 'real time' and gossiptian (yes I just made that up) aspects of being able to instantly discuss real issues on a massive scale has added fuel to the fire.

I'm hoping it will top off after the racists and wingnut crackpots complete the sowing of their oats. But that is another issue.

138 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:47:48am

re: #114 SanFranciscoZionist

Back in the early days of the Iraq war, Rabbi Michael Lerner was removed from an ANSWER speaker's list because he identifies as a Zionist. To give you an idea.

WOW. That's almost astonishing to read, given Lerner's ideas & associations.

139 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:47:58am

re: #78 MandyManners

I'm gonna' choose to think that you're naive.

Mandy, thank you, and I hope I am. And I hope I never get so cynical and suspicious that my first response is to see evil in every possible happenstance and turn of phrase.

140 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:48:50am

It's also illuminating that McKalip used the usual "I can't be be racist because" excuse once he saw that the consensus was that the picture is racist.
[Link: tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com...]

141 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:49:19am

re: #123 enoughalready

And if it cries, it lies?

(Yes, cheap. But what can you expect on a slightly depressing Sunday?)

I like that one, cheap or not.

142 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:49:57am

re: #130 Right Brain

I had this thought prior to seeing Lewis Black in person last Tuesday in Sag Harbor, but it was confirmed by watching Black intently for 90 minutes.

Glenn Beck is a young Lewis Black.

Lewis Black last Tuesday said that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid should be replaced by two six year olds dressed up as them in Halloween costumes. He bashed the Democrats all night long. He just swore more.

That is an insult to Lewis Black, IMO. Black is an equal opportunity critic without the smarmy connotations that drip from Beck's verbage.

143 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:50:27am

re: #139 nonic

Mandy, thank you, and I hope I am. And I hope I never get so cynical and suspicious that my first response is to see evil in every possible happenstance and turn of phrase.

Excuse me?

How the hell can you call it "cynical" to see a picture of a black man with a bone through his nose as a blatantly racist image?

144 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:51:04am

re: #139 nonic

Mandy, thank you, and I hope I am. And I hope I never get so cynical and suspicious that my first response is to see evil in every possible happenstance and turn of phrase.

I'm a pretty hopeful and happy person but, the racism in that photoshop came screaming up at me.

145 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:51:07am

re: #142 eclectic infidel

That is an insult to Lewis Black, IMO. Black is an equal opportunity critic without the smarmy connotations that drip from Beck's verbage.

Lewis Black also does not provide a platform for those encouraging armed insurrection.

146 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:51:47am

re: #130 Right Brain

I had this thought prior to seeing Lewis Black in person last Tuesday in Sag Harbor, but it was confirmed by watching Black intently for 90 minutes.

Glenn Beck is a young Lewis Black.

Lewis Black last Tuesday said that Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid should be replaced by two six year olds dressed up as them in Halloween costumes. He bashed the Democrats all night long. He just swore more.

The difference being, Black makes it very clear he's a comedian. (Some) people take Glenn Beck seriously, however puzzling that might be.
That also makes Beck more dangerous.

147 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:52:30am

re: #79 suchislife

again, what do you mean by context? You knew it was Obama with a bone through his nose as a criticism of his health care proposal. What context did you discover later on?

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

148 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:52:35am

re: #135 Thanos

The picture of our President with a bone through his nose practicing voodoo is every bit as offensive as a cartoon of a Jew with large hooked nose and fangs slavering over a bowl of blood would be.

Well Thanos, there really isn't anywhere to go after that one. Well played.

149 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:55:46am

re: #147 nonic

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

Europe has a history of witch doctors?

150 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:56:41am

re: #138 eclectic infidel

WOW. That's almost astonishing to read, given Lerner's ideas & associations.

Gives you an idea of who these people are, doesn't it, that Michael Lerner is not good enough for them?

151 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:56:46am

re: #147 nonic

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

If it was a white politician, I would agree with you. Because it is Obama, I find it racist.

152 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:56:54am

re: #147 nonic

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

Nonic, that's just ridiculous. Maybe there are non-black witch doctors, but if they have body paint and a bone through their nose, and ARE black (as the original person pre-photoshop is), there's no going around that.

Most importantly, I highly doubt (in fact, I'm certain) that there was no way they would have used THAT picture with either Pelosi or Kennedy. I think you know that too. There's a limit to naivete. After that, it's plain denial.

153 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:56:59am

re: #131 enoughalready

I totally agree that the majority of eople saying "I'm not a racist, but...", are happily racist, really, although they prefer not to think so. And I believe that denying the problem is effectivly putting people who belong to certain races at an unfair disadvantage, and is thus at least akin to racism. But I also believe that almost everybody had or has unacknoledged bigotted attitudes, and I belive in converts.
It's something you often see with homosexuality. A lot of people are vaguely repulsed to it, I believe mostly due to cultural influences or anxiety about their own sexual identity, and then suddendly their daughter is gay, and what do you know, they still love her. Because of this, Dan Savage suggests that gay people always give their parents a grace period of a year to loose their homophobia after coming out to them.

154 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:57:16am

and i still - still - have no idea what he will actually manage to put on the air that will jump the shark...

Rockerfeller Centre
Oligarhy
Outright racists
Promoting political rallies...

where next?. I do shudder to think.

155 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:57:25am

re: #149 MandyManners

Europe has a history of witch doctors?

he said Ted Kennedy. He must have meant Marthas Vineyard has witch doctors

umm,,,wait ,, HUH !?!?!?

//

156 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:57:27am

re: #76 BigPapa

Hawaii also has a very large tax burden and in serious deficit land, and the cost of living is high because of high business costs.

The NYT article sure did put a positive light on it.

Most states have a serious deficit problem right now. And I agree that the tax burden on businesses is high in Hawaii. The question is:

Is the citizenry as whole better off with the system in place? If so, the Hawaii and Louisiana systems should be looked at and the parts that work incorporated into a National system. No one said it was going to be free. You have to balance cost over the improvement of the polity's quality of life.

And keep in mind, the rest of the civilized world has, in general, better care overall *and* spends significantly less per person than we do.

157 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:58:33am

re: #147 nonic

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

Then you've missed the point. To take the title of a Cornell West book, Race Matters. I don't agree with West on much at all, but those two words are true. It is different when the subject of a witchdoctor photoshop is a black man. This is due to the long and ugly history in America of deploying such stereotypes against black people. Doing a photoshop of Ted Kennedy and Barack Obama is not the same thing.

158 jaunte  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 11:59:01am

re: #135 Thanos

Nonic: I think it takes a stretch, but just in case you are just ignorant of what ethnic stereotyping is, start Here and poke through a few articles.

The picture of our President with a bone through his nose practicing voodoo is every bit as offensive as a cartoon of a Jew with large hooked nose and fangs slavering over a bowl of blood would be.

Thanks for that link. The truly absurd aspect of this story for me is the number of people who feel somehow victimized that they can't get away with smearing their political opponents by using these images that have a huge negative historical subtext. Every time someone calls them on it, they act at first innocent and then resentful, like children.

159 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:01:03pm

Assholes are showing up again trying to post insults in old threads.

160 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:01:05pm

As for health care insurance reform, an unexpected party has come out in favor of it, Stephen Barrett, MD, the proprietor of QuackWatch and its numerous spinoff sites. He's launched yet another site, laying out the argument for reform. I'm still full of trepidation at the prospect, but I respect him mightily, and will read closely what he has to say.

161 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:01:54pm

re: #159 Charles

Assholes are showing up again trying to post insults in old threads.

What do they have against old threads?

oh ,, ,wait !!!

/

162 zora  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:03:38pm

During Beck's interview with Katie Couric, she asked him specifically if he thought the witch doctor poster of Obama (as seen at tea parties) was racist. He played dumb and said that he had never the photo.

163 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:03:55pm

I'm going to throw something out here just for fun... but before I do I want to be very clear that I do believe that image is racist and was intended to be and that's why the guy thought it was so funny. It's revolting.

But now, that said, why do we automatically see an image of a shaman, or proud African warrior in traditional dress to be a negative? Someone here mentioned it was to show him as "primitive". Aboriginal cultures are proud, fine societies that do a helluva lot less damage to the planet than those of us who are so "advanced". Aren't we showing a touch of racism ourselves by putting a automatically negative connotation (which I agree was the intent of the image) on that aspect?

Just a thought.

164 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:05:28pm

re: #162 zora

Nobody at Fox seems to have seen a single questionable sign. Of course, Sean Hannity saw EVERY Bush = Nazi sign at the anti-war rallies and demanded the mainstream left condemn the extremists among them!

165 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:05:44pm

re: #162 zora

During Beck's interview with Katie Couric, she asked him specifically if he thought the witch doctor poster of Obama (as seen at tea parties) was racist. He played dumb and said that he had never the photo.

He's either lying or has worse researchers than Palin.

166 kirkspencer  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:05:58pm

re: #8 MandyManners

How anyone could not see the racism in that is beyond me.

Sadly, the reason is that many of these people don't want to believe they're racists. "Racism is bad. I'm not bad. Ergo if I agree with something it is neither bad nor racism."

It's not the only circumstance where this occurs. People do not think, "Today, I shall be evil." They never plan to be one of the bad guys.

It is frightening to quit thinking with a broad brush and actually look at the people in history who were followers and supporters of people and processes and habits we today consider utterly evil, and realize they thought they were doing good. In fact they often WERE doing good except for this one tiny little aspect.

It's a stereotype, I know, but I'll reiterate it here. The strengths are the weaknesses of both liberals and conservatives. Liberals tend to not get things done as they tie themselves in knots wondering if they're doing the wrong thing. Conservatives always know they're doing the right thing and see no need to question themselves.

167 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:05:59pm

re: #156 austin_blue

Is the citizenry as whole better off with the system in place? If so, the Hawaii and Louisiana systems should be looked at and the parts that work incorporated into a National system. No one said it was going to be free. You have to balance cost over the improvement of the polity's quality of life.

And keep in mind, the rest of the civilized world has, in general, better care overall *and* spends significantly less per person than we do.

I'd keep in mind HI's uniqueness and LA's recent uniqueness with regards to federal dollars flowing into post Katrina LA. Also the relative populations of both states are very small.

Really, what parts 'work' that need to be incorporated into a National system? It wasn't really clear in the article, just generally 'hey, it's cheap and it works'. From there to say that the 'rest of the civilized world is, in general better overall and spends significantly less per person' is a very specious and vague statement.

168 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:06:26pm

re: #157 Dark_Falcon

Then you've missed the point. To take the title of a Cornell West book, Race Matters. I don't agree with West on much at all, but those two words are true. It is different when the subject of a witchdoctor photoshop is a black man. This is due to the long and ugly history in America of deploying such stereotypes against black people. Doing a photoshop of Ted Kennedy and Barack Obama is not the same thing.

Not to mention the fact that AFAIK there is no photoshop of Ted Kennedy zl dressed as a witch doctor out there.

169 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:06:33pm

re: #163 allegro

I'm going to throw something out here just for fun... but before I do I want to be very clear that I do believe that image is racist and was intended to be and that's why the guy thought it was so funny. It's revolting.

But now, that said, why do we automatically see an image of a shaman, or proud African warrior in traditional dress to be a negative? Someone here mentioned it was to show him as "primitive". Aboriginal cultures are proud, fine societies that do a helluva lot less damage to the planet than those of us who are so "advanced". Aren't we showing a touch of racism ourselves by putting a automatically negative connotation (which I agree was the intent of the image) on that aspect?

Just a thought.

What the hell?

A picture of a witch doctor in itself is not a racist image. But when you photoshop Barack Obama's face on it, and make sure to include a freaking bone through his nose, it's not "racist" to point out that this is disgusting and vile.

170 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:07:45pm

re: #163 allegro

If the photo WAS of an actual African King or Prince of "witch doctor" dressed as his forefathers were there would be no issue, for that person would have done it on their own accord.

President Obama has never been, nor have any of his ancestors been any of the above, NOR was he a willing participant in the "photo"

I hope you can see a difference

171 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:08:33pm

re: #147 nonic

I really want to abandon this conversation, but...

I saw "witch doctor medicine" meaning quakery, fakery, phony healthcare -- which I would have interpreted exactly the same way if it had been a picture of Pelosi or Ted Kennedy with a bone through his nose, because I do not define the term "witch doctor" as being NECESSARILY black.

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.

172 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:09:04pm

re: #169 Charles

A picture of a witch doctor in itself is not a racist image. But when you photoshop Barack Obama's face on it, and make sure to include a freaking bone through his nose, it's not "racist" to point out that this is disgusting and vile.

Oh, I absolutely agree. It is disgusting and vile because that was the intent.

I was just thinking a little further into some of our other attitudes.

173 bratwurst  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:09:12pm

re: #166 kirkspencer

Sadly, the reason is that many of these people don't want to believe they're racists. "Racism is bad. I'm not bad. Ergo if I agree with something it is neither bad nor racism."

It's not the only circumstance where this occurs. People do not think, "Today, I shall be evil." They never plan to be one of the bad guys.

There is definitely something to this. There is also a mentality out there that goes something like: "I can't possibly be racist if I am only telling the truth, right?"

174 dentate  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:09:20pm

re: #163 allegro

I'm going to throw something out here just for fun... but before I do I want to be very clear that I do believe that image is racist and was intended to be and that's why the guy thought it was so funny. It's revolting.

But now, that said, why do we automatically see an image of a shaman, or proud African warrior in traditional dress to be a negative? Someone here mentioned it was to show him as "primitive". Aboriginal cultures are proud, fine societies that do a helluva lot less damage to the planet than those of us who are so "advanced". Aren't we showing a touch of racism ourselves by putting a automatically negative connotation (which I agree was the intent of the image) on that aspect?

Just a thought.

McKalip's intent was CLEARLY not to honor the African Shaman. Remember during the campaign, there were pictures of Obama in Kenya in African dress? THAT might have met your criteria, since Obama chose the robes himself.

175 MandyManners  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:09:21pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.

Precisely.

176 zora  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:09:28pm
During Beck's interview with Katie Couric, she asked him specifically if he thought the witch doctor poster of Obama (as seen at tea parties) was racist. He played dumb and said that he had never the photo.

I meant never seen the photo.

177 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:10:05pm

re: #163 allegro

it is an interesting question - given that the default items of sature for people of Scots decent is to be in a full kilt/sporan/tamashanta outfit...

For the Irish it's a sheleidlh and clover...

I'm pretty certain African language newspapers on the Continent would use traditional dress and stereotypes for their leaders/important figures in Editorial cartoons... but they would obviously not have the natural baggage they would in Europe or the USA.

As ever - the safest thing is to steer well clear.

178 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:10:30pm

re: #170 sattv4u2

If the photo WAS of an actual African King or Prince of "witch doctor" dressed as his forefathers were there would be no issue, for that person would have done it on their own accord.

President Obama has never been, nor have any of his ancestors been any of the above, NOR was he a willing participant in the "photo"

I hope you can see a difference

To give it a different cultural spin, there's nothing wrong with a Hasidic man wearing payess, a beard, and a black fedora. But if an image opposing something Joe Lieberman was working on showed him photoshopped and wearing such, I would call anti-Semitism.

179 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:10:34pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.

Why would you assume that the "artist" was trying to make any point worth listening to?

180 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:11:08pm

re: #162 zora

During Beck's interview with Katie Couric, she asked him specifically if he thought the witch doctor poster of Obama (as seen at tea parties) was racist. He played dumb and said that he had never the photo.

Bull.Shit.

181 dentate  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:12:41pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.

An ad hominem attack, in words or pictures, is a desperate attempt to argue via emotion when one lacks either strength of argument or ability to argue intelligently.

182 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:12:42pm

re: #163 allegro

. . . Aren't we showing a touch of racism ourselves by putting a automatically negative connotation (which I agree was the intent of the image) on that aspect?

Just a thought.

If the intent of the image was a negative one, how is anyone showing racism if they immediately and automatically see the negative connotation?

Those viewing the image cannot be accused of racism if that's what the person intended it to be and those viewing understand that.

183 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:12:59pm

re: #163 allegro

I'm going to throw something out here just for fun... but before I do I want to be very clear that I do believe that image is racist and was intended to be and that's why the guy thought it was so funny. It's revolting.

But now, that said, why do we automatically see an image of a shaman, or proud African warrior in traditional dress to be a negative? Someone here mentioned it was to show him as "primitive". Aboriginal cultures are proud, fine societies that do a helluva lot less damage to the planet than those of us who are so "advanced". Aren't we showing a touch of racism ourselves by putting a automatically negative connotation (which I agree was the intent of the image) on that aspect?

Just a thought.

It's all about context and intended audience. Sort of a qui bono with a cultural twist. What is the message and who is the recipient.
In this case I would say that the intention was to show him as primitive, scary and above all as african. As opposed to civilized, protective and american. This image is all about pressing buttons and I would say that it basically places its fat racist ass right on top of the keyboard to get to as many as possible.

It would be a losing proposition to argue that I was free from prejudice. Neither is anyone else really. But what makes a difference is whether we are aware of our shortcomings and fight them to try to make sure that we make as many good decisions as possible. (I use the term decisions here mainly because I think we have to make a conscious decision not to act in accordance with our prejudice)

Or something along those lines.

184 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:13:06pm

re: #167 BigPapa

I'd keep in mind HI's uniqueness and LA's recent uniqueness with regards to federal dollars flowing into post Katrina LA. Also the relative populations of both states are very small.

Really, what parts 'work' that need to be incorporated into a National system? It wasn't really clear in the article, just generally 'hey, it's cheap and it works'. From there to say that the 'rest of the civilized world is, in general better overall and spends significantly less per person' is a very specious and vague statement.

How about, "if you are employed more than twenty hours a week, your employer must provide health care."

185 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:13:46pm

re: #182 reine.de.tout

If the intent of the image was a negative one, how is anyone showing racism if they immediately and automatically see the negative connotation?

Those viewing the image cannot be accused of racism if that's what the person intended it to be and those viewing understand that.

Totally good point.

186 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:14:38pm

re: #135 Thanos

The picture of our President with a bone through his nose practicing voodoo is every bit as offensive as a cartoon of a Jew with large hooked nose and fangs slavering over a bowl of blood would be.

I'm still waiting for a response to this specific point.

187 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:15:36pm

re: #186 BigPapa

I'm still waiting for a response to this specific point.

188 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:15:41pm

re: #163 allegro

I'll never forget something I saw in the newspapers here, during South Africa's first post-apartheid elections. It was when Atlanta's newspaper ran both a morning and an evening edition. A wire photo showed a line of black South Africans lining up to vote, focusing on two women in whiteface, headresses, and other face decorations. The caption identified them as "witch doctors."

In the afternoon, the same photo ran with a photo identifying them as "sangomas, or traditional healers". Obviously, someone had gotten a visit from the Sensitivity Fairy in the interim.

189 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:16:07pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.


Good point. There's no need to inject race into this at all. It was done intentionally.

190 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:16:17pm

re: #187 austin_blue

Oops.

[[crickets]]

191 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:17:11pm

re: #188 The Sanity Inspector

I'll never forget something I saw in the newspapers here, during South Africa's first post-apartheid elections. It was when Atlanta's newspaper ran both a morning and an evening edition. A wire photo showed a line of black South Africans lining up to vote, focusing on two women in whiteface, headresses, and other face decorations. The caption identified them as "witch doctors."

In the afternoon, the same photo ran with a photo identifying them as "sangomas, or traditional healers". Obviously, someone had gotten a visit from the Sensitivity Fairy in the interim.

You mean "Sensitivity Extra-Corporeal Being."

192 Dark_Falcon  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:17:14pm

Time for some lunch. BBIAB

193 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:17:16pm

re: #184 austin_blue

How about, "if you are employed more than twenty hours a week, your employer must provide health care."

We're going to do this your way with your rules. Why not...

Does making that law make for a better health care system and cheaper health care?

194 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:18:10pm

re: #188 The Sanity Inspector

In the afternoon, the same photo ran with a photo identifying them as "sangomas, or traditional healers". Obviously, someone had gotten a visit from the Sensitivity Fairy in the interim.

Or been hit over the head with a large clue stick in my opinion. The term "witch doctor" was primarily used as a way to discredit and undermine traditional structures by the british. Not quite a term I would use myself. (And I am assuming that you meant the Sensitivity Fairy in a good way and not in the "liberal pinko political correctness" way.)

195 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:18:19pm

re: #186 BigPapa

Can you be specific please? I'm doing a couple things here, want to make sure I understand.

196 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:19:50pm

re: #193 BigPapa

We're going to do this your way with your rules. Why not...

Does making that law make for a better health care system and cheaper health care?

Better? Most definitely! Care is better for people who have coverage and costs are cheaper in the long run than using the ER for Primary Care.

197 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:20:14pm

re: #188 The Sanity Inspector

A wire photo showed a line of black South Africans lining up to vote, focusing on two women in whiteface, headresses, and other face decorations. The caption identified them as "witch doctors."

In the afternoon, the same photo ran with a photo identifying them as "sangomas, or traditional healers". Obviously, someone had gotten a visit from the Sensitivity Fairy in the interim.

Thank you. I think that was where I was trying to get to in my head with those questions bouncing around in there.

198 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:22:35pm

re: #195 Thanos

Can you be specific please? I'm doing a couple things here, want to make sure I understand.

Maybe my point wasn't clear. I wanted others in this thread to respond to your point: Obama Witch Doctor photo is every bit as offensive as a picture of an evil fanged Jew hording a bowl of blood.

I was hoping people who didn't find offense to the Witch Doctor photo would respond to your very concise point.

Still waiting for that from them.

199 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:24:02pm

re: #196 austin_blue

Better? Most definitely! Care is better for people who have coverage and costs are cheaper in the long run than using the ER for Primary Care.

Not really

Just because more people would "have" health care coverage (having it being a different argument) doesn't mean it's better

If you frequent a restaurant that serves 100 people a night and gives very good service, do you not think that adding 50 people a night cuts down on service, not to mention the quality of product? (more meals prepared means more mistakes in the kitchen)

The above is Devils advocate

200 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:24:35pm

re: #198 BigPapa

Oh sorry friend, I thought you were looking for more from me.

201 SixDegrees  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:24:56pm

re: #196 austin_blue

Better? Most definitely! Care is better for people who have coverage and costs are cheaper in the long run than using the ER for Primary Care.

Jumping in late here, but I see a problem with this proposal: it encourages businesses to cut employee's hours to under 20 per week, in order to skirt around the law. And there are plenty of businesses that would be willing and able to make such a shift - Walmart is already notorious for keeping employee hours below 30 hours per week in order to avoid paying them benefits that are granted to full-time employees, with 30 hours being the magic cut-off point. So you could well wind up with a whole pile of people who still have no health insurance, but who are now severely under-employed.

202 mikhailtheplumber  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:25:31pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

Not really

Just because more people would "have" health care coverage (having it being a different argument) doesn't mean it's better

If you frequent a restaurant that serves 100 people a night and gives very good service, do you not think that adding 50 people a night cuts down on service, not to mention the quality of product? (more meals prepared means more mistakes in the kitchen)

The above is Devils advocate

If those other 50 people would starve to death without the restaurant's service, I couldn't care less whether my chicken came a little overcooked. I'd have them in.

203 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:26:09pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

Not really

Just because more people would "have" health care coverage (having it being a different argument) doesn't mean it's better

If you frequent a restaurant that serves 100 people a night and gives very good service, do you not think that adding 50 people a night cuts down on service, not to mention the quality of product? (more meals prepared means more mistakes in the kitchen)

The above is Devils advocate

But extend the analogy--if the restaurant serves 100 people a night, the service may be less sterling. But if it doesn't, 50 people don't eat at all that night.

204 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:26:13pm

re: #179 Charles

Why would you assume that the "artist" was trying to make any point worth listening to?

Political cartoons and images deliver impact, not context. It's pretty obvious that this fellow intended a not-so-backhanded racial smear against the President, while denouncing the healthcare reform project. But it's not racist to oppose healthcare reform, and my example was but one non-racist way to express opposition to it.

205 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:26:40pm

re: #196 austin_blue

Better? Most definitely! Care is better for people who have coverage and costs are cheaper in the long run than using the ER for Primary Care.

How is that specific policy the delineation of 'better health care in the civilized world' as compared to the current US system?

How do you quantify that as some kind of significant cost savings factor throughout an entire system that administrates to 1.5M people, or 365M people for that matter?

206 TedStriker  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:27:33pm

re: #9 Charles

Reading through the comments on that original thread I posted is depressing. So many LGF readers who tried to argue this isn't a blatant, in your face racist image.

The good thing is that a lot of those people are not here any more -- they're posting at blogs where they encourage and applaud racism, which is where they belong.

I strongly disagree, Charles...those former Lizards belong in a rubber room eating soft food, tended by nice people in white coats.

207 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:28:02pm

re: #201 SixDegrees

Jumping in late here, but I see a problem with this proposal: it encourages businesses to cut employee's hours to under 20 per week, in order to skirt around the law. And there are plenty of businesses that would be willing and able to make such a shift - Walmart is already notorious for keeping employee hours below 30 hours per week in order to avoid paying them benefits that are granted to full-time employees, with 30 hours being the magic cut-off point. So you could well wind up with a whole pile of people who still have no health insurance, but who are now severely under-employed.

Bingo.

BTW, Costco, I hear, does very well by its employees.

208 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:28:09pm

Regular neo-Nazi meetings in Belgium undisturbed

Brussels (UNN) Extreme rightwing groups from all over Europe hold meetings in Belgium without police interference.

Saturday evening more than 100 youngsters from extreme right groups gathered in a hall in Moerbrugge, near Oostkamp (West Flanders). There were speeches and concerts which showed clear and open fascist sympathies.

The audience and speakers came from all over Europe. The German national socialist Axel Reitz was the guest of honour at the gathering. He has been convicted in Germany for illegal arms possession and bearing Nazi symbols.
..
The group Brigade M, also famous for Blood and Honour concerts, are openly fascist. The group members allowed themselves to be filmed.

It's a holy war... against the delusion of Judaism and Islam," they sang.

209 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:28:37pm

re: #205 BigPapa

How is that specific policy the delineation of 'better health care in the civilized world' as compared to the current US system?

How do you quantify that as some kind of significant cost savings factor throughout an entire system that administrates to 1.5M people, or 365M people for that matter?

But we're also serving a large portion of those people in emergency rooms, which is hurting the ability to care for people who actually have emergencies. Or we have people who have easily treated problems who are waiting until those problems become emergencies before they seek treatment. It's both inhumane and inefficient.

210 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:28:46pm

re: #200 Thanos

Oh sorry friend, I thought you were looking for more from me.

Hell, how can you top that point? You deserve a foo foo drink with an umbrella for that one, to be leisurely sipped whilst others consternate a response to it. Let me pour one myself and watch too.

211 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:29:35pm

re: #202 mikhailtheplumber

If those other 50 people would starve to death without the restaurant's service, I couldn't care less whether my chicken came a little overcooked. I'd have them in.

But theres the rub. They DON'T

Nobody in this country is denied care

Not everybody can go to a doctor for every sniffle, but nobody is turned away
Back to the restaurant analogy. Those with coverage may be able to eat at Ruths Chris steak houses while those without may have to subside on ramman noodles, but nobody starves

212 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:30:00pm

re: #201 SixDegrees

Jumping in late here, but I see a problem with this proposal: it encourages businesses to cut employee's hours to under 20 per week...

That does happen in HI a lot. It's a factor in people working multiple part time jobs as well.

213 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:30:00pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

see 211

214 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:30:03pm

since we're talking about racism and it is over 200 comments, what do you people here think about this:

215 copernic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:30:47pm

I can sort of see how those afflicted with cognitive dissonance can explain away the racist nature of the picture. They seem able to focus on the dual nature of the image.

First, they claim to hate government involvement in changing healthcare. I get that. There's a strong libertarian presence even on this site who is skittish about this whole deal. So, they portray Obama as a "doctor". They may even claim that his form of involvement is backwards, thus the primitive image.

But, come on! One can't be so tone deaf to our culture to not know the intentions behind this picture which I won't get into.

A good counter example of a political image is the almost pervasive internet ad with Obama wearing the surgical cap. It's intentions are clear -- Obama is not a doctor and shouldn't getting involved in this debate- -- Whether this ad is effective or honest is debatable but it is clearly not racist.

Obama as a witch doctor, however? Its creation and distribution reeks of racism and small mindedness.

216 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:31:51pm

re: #202 mikhailtheplumber

there my firend is the very point that needs to be made over and over and over - and you make it very well.

217 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:31:52pm

re: #214 suchislife

Ummm... it's about chocolate...

218 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:32:15pm

re: #214 suchislife

since we're talking about racism and it is over 200 comments, what do you people here think about this:

[Video]

dumber than shit, but not racist...

219 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:32:27pm

re: #214 suchislife

since we're talking about racism and it is over 200 comments, what do you people here think about this:

That it is intended for a market where chocolate apparently make women rip someone's arm off.

220 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:32:51pm

re: #219 enoughalready

And kiss their butt.

221 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:33:29pm

re: #214 suchislife

That's the creepiest face in any commercial I've ever seen.

Don't think its racist though.

222 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:33:31pm

re: #220 freetoken

Thanks. I tried to stay above the waist.

223 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:33:57pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

what if that sniffle is TB???... and what if catching that sniffle early is the difference between life/death/bankruptcy/destroyed family???.

Its a price you are more than willing to make others pay for your perfect care?

224 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:34:47pm

re: #214 suchislife

since we're talking about racism and it is over 200 comments, what do you people here think about this:



Racist? Is their a preponderance of black males walking down streets pulling their noses off that I'm not aware of?

225 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:34:56pm

re: #222 enoughalready

Well, it gets back to the theory proposed by the Ardi scientist... that the reason man walks upright is to bring food back to the woman, to exchange food for sex...

226 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:35:28pm

re: #223 wozzablog

what if that sniffle is TB???... and what if catching that sniffle early is the difference between life/death/bankruptcy/destroyed family???.

Its a price you are more than willing to make others pay for your perfect care?

Also, if that sniffle is swine flu, what about all the people that risk getting infected because someone is walking around because they can't pay to see the doctor. By the time they get bad enough that they get to the ER, they're a lot sicker and have exposed a lot more people.

227 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:35:47pm

re: #218 brookly red

re: #217 freetoken

re: #219 enoughalready

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

228 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:36:25pm

re: #223 wozzablog

what if that sniffle is TB???... and what if catching that sniffle early is the difference between life/death/bankruptcy/destroyed family???.

Its a price you are more than willing to make others pay for your perfect care?

I'll wait here for you to go look for comments of mine where I say our system affords "perfect care"

229 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:36:31pm

re: #227 suchislife

re: #217 freetoken

re: #219 enoughalready

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

uhhh, no.

230 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:36:38pm

re: #143 Charles

Excuse me?

How the hell can you call it "cynical" to see a picture of a black man with a bone through his nose as a blatantly racist image?

It has long been a weakness or fault of mine to take things literally, at face value -- to accept people the way they present themselves to me, without prejudice. People here are calling me naive. Maybe that's the case. Or maybe I'm just an "easy mark."

If "cynical" and "suspicious" are not the opposite of "naive," I'll gladly say it a different way. Sophisticated? Discerning? Wary? I don't know. What's the right term?

I explained what I was thinking, what I said. I didn't SEE the image of Obama as "a black man." I saw him as the President. I thought it was a political statement. I did not immediately think it was a racial one.

231 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:36:48pm

re: #227 suchislife

re: #217 freetoken

re: #219 enoughalready

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

Oy!

232 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:37:15pm

re: #203 SanFranciscoZionist

But extend the analogy--if the restaurant serves 100 people a night, the service may be less sterling. But if it doesn't, 50 people don't eat at all that night.

A restaurant is a business. It serves food to people who pay. A soup kitchen serves the needy, and don't expect white gloves and a wine list.

233 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:37:42pm

re: #227 suchislife

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
notice the bulging eyes and white teeth. What I'm saying is, this is imo only racist as part of a racist tradition. Thus, only in context.

234 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #227 suchislife

re: #217 freetoken

re: #219 enoughalready

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

You DO know the difference between the vaudvillian "black face" and a CHOCOLATE EASTER BUNNY/ MAN !?!?!

235 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:37:49pm

re: #232 Alouette

A restaurant is a business. It serves food to people who pay. A soup kitchen serves the needy, and don't expect white gloves and a wine list.

/yet

236 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:38:23pm

re: #194 enoughalready

Or been hit over the head with a large clue stick in my opinion. The term "witch doctor" was primarily used as a way to discredit and undermine traditional structures by the british. Not quite a term I would use myself. (And I am assuming that you meant the Sensitivity Fairy in a good way and not in the "liberal pinko political correctness" way.)

I mean it in the sense that I'm glad it was Skippy the intern getting called down, and not me!

237 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:38:36pm

re: #233 suchislife

see 234

238 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:38:46pm

re: #209 ~Fianna

But we're also serving a large portion of those people in emergency rooms, which is hurting the ability to care for people who actually have emergencies. Or we have people who have easily treated problems who are waiting until those problems become emergencies before they seek treatment. It's both inhumane and inefficient.

I understand the dynamic and agree with the premise but my analysis of the impact is different. People with emergencies still go to the front of the line so while it's a factor it's not necessarily causing heart attack patients to be waiting for hang nails en masse. Not to mention that many people, even with health care paid for directly, some will still not take care of themselves.

My point is that if you give people health care the specific impact you are expecting (and I assume Austin) will not materialize as strongly as you think.

239 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:38:47pm

re: #226 ~Fianna

Which is why I believe some medical procedures, such as inoculations, ought to be gov't run and freely distributable in every corner of this nation.

At the local store various shots are available time to time, the latest being flu of course, and the advert says they take Medicare, etc.

Why even charge money? Why not have a truck with an R.N. and Nurse Practitioner go down every street with this stuff?

240 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

But theres the rub. They DON'T

Nobody in this country is denied care

Not everybody can go to a doctor for every sniffle, but nobody is turned away
Back to the restaurant analogy. Those with coverage may be able to eat at Ruths Chris steak houses while those without may have to subside on ramman noodles, but nobody starves

First, those of us with coverage aren't exactly at Ruth's Chris, most of us.

Second, 'nobody is turned away' isn't exactly true. Yes, everyone can go to the ER, but not everybody can get the medication they need, or the ongoing medical care they need. And people who can get care are often bankrupted by it.

I'd say people are starving, or at the very least, suffering from malnutrition.

241 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:40:28pm

re: #149 MandyManners

Europe has a history of witch doctors?

Yep. [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

The Oxford English Dictionary states that the first record of the use of this term was in 1718, in a book by Francis Hutchinson.[1]

Charles Mackay's book, Extraordinary Popular Delusions and the Madness of Crowds, first published in 1841, attests to the practice of and belief in witch doctors in England at the time.

242 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:40:42pm

re: #214 suchislife
That is freaking funny!

243 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:41:21pm

re: #227 suchislife

In my mind, and I believe our culture, the relationship of chocolate=women=sex is more common than chocolate=black-male.

244 abbyadams  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:42:09pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

And, to add to the above - what if someone without coverage goes to the ER, and is discovered to have cancer? Or to need an operation? What happens, then to their prognosis without long term options?

245 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:42:10pm

re: #211 sattv4u2

um. . .
[Link: rawstory.com...]

246 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:42:26pm

re: #234 sattv4u2

That tradition originated in vaudeville, but it is by no means limited to it. What I'm saying is, there are clearly racist thing, e.g. witch doctor, and there are things that are at once harmless and part of a racist discource. This can be innocent and ignorant, or dog whistle. The point is, I would not say that this must have been made by racists. I'm sure it wasn't. But I would not find it race baiting or unreasonable to be offended by it.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:42:31pm

re: #214 suchislife

since we're talking about racism and it is over 200 comments, what do you people here think about this:



Exceedingly silly. Not racist.

I hate AXE.

248 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:42:38pm

re: #241 nonic

I don't think you ever answered this direct question: do you believe this is a racist image?

249 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:01pm

Sharia bikini inspectors...
Hamas patrols beaches in Gaza to enforce conservative dress code

Asmaa al-Ghoul, a writer and former journalist, was one of the first to run up against the new campaign. She spent an evening with a mixed group of friends in a beachside cafe in late June. After dark, she and another female friend went swimming wearing long trousers and T-shirts. Moments after leaving the water they found themselves confronted by a group of increasingly aggressive Hamas police officers. "Where is your father? Your husband?" one officer asked her. Ghoul, 27, was told her behaviour had not been respectable. Five of her male friends were beaten and detained for several hours.

250 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:14pm

re: #240 SanFranciscoZionist

I'd say people are starving, or at the very least, suffering from malnutrition.

I was responding to the specific statemnet the poster made that if no coverage people ARE "starving to death". I made the point (accurately) that with free clinics, ER's and church orgs nobody is denied being seen. Whether that leads to cures, ongoing care or meds is another matter

251 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:24pm

re: #228 sattv4u2

Swiftly glossing over the horrors or premature death/bankruptcy/family breakdown/a life time without work/crippling emergency room bills for want of a single doctors appointment...

Perfect care - in this instance - simply meaning having access to a family doctor, optician or dentist... thats not much to ask for what would be perfection in saving someones sight/gums/life over a sniffle

252 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:47pm

re: #243 freetoken

In my mind, and I believe our culture, the relationship of chocolate=women=sex is more common than chocolate=black-male.

/I find that booze works better than chocolate...

253 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:55pm

One thing I note is that this thread is different in tenor than the first LGF thread on that witch-doctor image.

Nothing like a good Fall-cleaning to make a house feel fresher.

254 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:43:58pm

re: #224 sattv4u2

Racist? Is their a preponderance of black males walking down streets pulling their noses off that I'm not aware of?

Now that Michael Jackson is dead, I think the number may be down to none.

255 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:44:00pm

re: #227 suchislife

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

Blackface was an form of entertainment that originated in the US. Not in Spain. If you want to make connections then make sure they are actually connected to something.

256 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:44:07pm

re: #239 freetoken

Which is why I believe some medical procedures, such as inoculations, ought to be gov't run and freely distributable in every corner of this nation.

At the local store various shots are available time to time, the latest being flu of course, and the advert says they take Medicare, etc.

Why even charge money? Why not have a truck with an R.N. and Nurse Practitioner go down every street with this stuff?

Because the anti-vaxers will cry and the Birchers will scream that it's a gubbmint conspiracy to give us all mercury poisoning because the flouride in the water isn't killing us fast enough.
///

257 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:44:32pm

re: #245 lastlaugh

um. . .
[Link: rawstory.com...]

Unless it states somewhere in there that they were thrown out of a free clinic or an ER I stand by my statement

258 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:44:42pm

re: #225 freetoken

Well, it gets back to the theory proposed by the Ardi scientist... that the reason man walks upright is to bring food back to the woman, to exchange food for sex...

Because quadrupeds never get sex.

//?

259 copernic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:44:49pm

re: #151 rwdflynavy

This is not completely wrong but messages/images mean different things in different context.

To prove your point, if they had dressed Obama up as an American Indian shaman or a central American psychic surgeon, the response may very well have been different and more folks would have focused on the quackery bit.

However, the problem conservatives have with Obama is not that he's promoting quackery, or absurd alternative medicine, or even primative approaches to health care. In fact, he's promoting the exact opposite using science and peer review to promote good medicine.

This is exactly why the image has no meaning for people other than the racist message. If they try to explain it any other way it would show their complete ignorance of political messaging, policy differentiation, and arguments within science-based medicine.

260 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:45:35pm

re: #227 suchislife

re: #217 freetoken

re: #219 enoughalready

Yes, he's made of chocolate.
But, if you see it in the context of blackface? And black men and white women?

No. I don't see it.

He's chocolate. Women like chocolate.

261 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:45:54pm

re: #243 freetoken

I totally agree that this is about women and chocolate and sex. But, a video can tell several stories at once, and they can affirm or even contradict each other. And you do know that there is a tradition of casting the black man as oversexed and irresistible to white women?

262 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:46:01pm

Out of all the 'medical experts' he has to pick this one!? There have to be at least a million plus doctors that would be more than willing to toe the line on this one...and aren't carrying crap baggage.

263 abbyadams  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:46:24pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, there's some blatant sweetism, if I've ever seen it.

//

264 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:46:49pm

re: #249 Killgore Trout

Asmaa al-Ghoul, a writer and former journalist, was one of the first to run up against the new campaign. She spent an evening with a mixed group of friends in a beachside cafe in late June. After dark, she and another female friend went swimming wearing long trousers and T-shirts. Moments after leaving the water they found themselves confronted by a group of increasingly aggressive Hamas police officers. "Where is your father? Your husband?" one officer asked her. Ghoul, 27, was told her behaviour had not been respectable. Five of her male friends were beaten and detained for several hours.

"I believe our society is secular, but some Islamic parties want to change the idea of this society to make it religious," she said. She does not wear a headscarf, a choice that is increasingly rare for women in Gaza and generally confined only to those living in the wealthier areas of Gaza City. She routinely suffers taunts from other Palestinians as she walks from her home to her favourite coffee shops. "We're just afraid to be ourselves in the street," she said. "Hamas uses Islam in the mosque to try and control people's hearts."

Islamic Palestinians are much better off living under an Israeli government.

265 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:46:53pm

re: #250 sattv4u2

well thats alright then - as long as people are told how much longer they have left to put their affairs in order for being poor...

who needs medicine when they can be told how long they have to suffer?

266 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:47:01pm

re: #259 copernic

This is not completely wrong but messages/images mean different things in different context.

To prove your point, if they had dressed Obama up as an American Indian shaman or a central American psychic surgeon, the response may very well have been different and more folks would have focused on the quackery bit.

However, the problem conservatives have with Obama is not that he's promoting quackery, or absurd alternative medicine, or even primative approaches to health care. In fact, he's promoting the exact opposite using science and peer review to promote good medicine.

This is exactly why the image has no meaning for people other than the racist message. If they try to explain it any other way it would show their complete ignorance of political messaging, policy differentiation, and arguments within science-based medicine.

I agree with everything but the 'bolded' part.

267 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:47:07pm

re: #262 Oh no...Sand People!

Some of us suspect he was picked by Beck because of the racist image.

268 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:47:46pm

re: #264 BigPapa

Islamic Palestinians are much better off living under an Israeli government.

Yes, probably.

269 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:48:02pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

Some of us suspect he was picked by Beck because of the racist image.

That's what I think. I don't believe in coincidences like this.

270 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:48:23pm

re: #255 enoughalready

it was made in the US. it's shown everywhere in europe. again, I'm not stating this was done with a racist intention. I'm saying it knowingly or unknowingly echoes a racist caricature tradition.

271 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:48:48pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

Some of us suspect he was picked by Beck because of the racist image.

worse yet, for ratings...

272 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:48:58pm

re: #243 freetoken

In my mind, and I believe our culture, the relationship of chocolate=women=sex is more common than chocolate=black-male.

Of course there's always HAIR:

Black boys are delicious
Chocolate flavored love
Licorice lips like candy
Keep my cocoa handy
I have such a sweet tooth
When it comes to love

Once I tried a diet
Of quiet, rest, no sweets
But I went nearly crazy
And I went clearly crazy
Because I really craved for
My chocolate flavored treats

Black boys are nutritious
Black boys fill me up
Black boys are so damn yummy
They satisfy my tummy
I have such a sweet tooth
When it comes to love
Black black black black
black black black black
Black boys

273 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:49:28pm

re: #258 SanFranciscoZionist

Not as much as bipedal humans!

The idea is to explain bipedality given that Ardi (1) lived in a forested area, (2) had feet that were far from ideal for fast bipedal motion (i.e., bipedality was not a means of escape or 100% locomotion), (3) had retained the ability to move through the trees (grasping feet, long arms.)

At least, that is my takeaway from various Ardi articles.

274 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:49:34pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

Some of us suspect he was picked by Beck because of the racist image.

Oh, come on...out of the millions of qualified doctors and this one, this particular one is featured? This is completely deliberate.

275 avanti  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:50:48pm

re: #267 Killgore Trout

Some of us suspect he was picked by Beck because of the racist image.

I'm not that cynical, I just think Beck is a sandwich short of a picnic.

276 dugmartsch  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:51:09pm

Doesn't the NFL get tired of how regularly terrible their officiating is?

277 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:51:20pm

re: #250 sattv4u2

I'd say people are starving, or at the very least, suffering from malnutrition.

I was responding to the specific statemnet the poster made that if no coverage people ARE "starving to death". I made the point (accurately) that with free clinics, ER's and church orgs nobody is denied being seen. Whether that leads to cures, ongoing care or meds is another matter

OK. I will say that free clinics, ERs and charitable organizations are not adequate to what I consider a reasonable standard of health care for a nation with the resources of ours.

'Being seen by a doctor' is not a reasonable standard, if the doctor can only tell you "you're SOL".

278 nonic  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:51:29pm

re: #171 The Sanity Inspector

The "artist" could possibly have made his point less offensively if he had portrayed Obama as an old-timey patent medicine quack, or some such.

Good point.

But it's interesting to me to find out

here

that the author of the image was a physician. Because I know a few docs quite well, and they commonly refer to quacks as "witch doctors."

279 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:51:56pm

re: #260 SanFranciscoZionist

No. I don't see it.

He's chocolate. Women like chocolate.

Milk chocolate.

280 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:52:35pm

Yeah, this is complete 'fail' on Beck's part.

281 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:52:41pm

re: #276 dugmartsch

Doesn't the NFL get tired of how regularly terrible their officiating is?

Well, if Limbaugh was one of the owners then the officiating would be perfect, even with one arm tied behind their backs!

/

282 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:52:42pm

re: #265 wozzablog

well thats alright then - as long as people are told how much longer they have left to put their affairs in order for being poor...

who needs medicine when they can be told how long they have to suffer?

What else should the "government" (read us) provide for the poor? (and again, there are venues of local, state, and fed that DO provide care)

What size house should be "provided". What year/ make/ model auto? Should the government ensure not more than 10% fat content in ground round for them? 2-ply toilet paper? Again ,, NOBODY is thrown out of an ER because they do not have a "cadilac plan H.I.

283 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:54:01pm

re: #251 wozzablog

Swiftly glossing over the horrors or premature death/bankruptcy/family breakdown/a life time without work/crippling emergency room bills for want of a single doctors appointment...

Perfect care - in this instance - simply meaning having access to a family doctor, optician or dentist... thats not much to ask for what would be perfection in saving someones sight/gums/life over a sniffle

Said like a typical right wing talk show host most all here seem to regularly criticize. Nobody glossed over anything. You're painting one extreme position causing extreme results then asking a question from the simplest premise.

284 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:54:16pm

re: #277 SanFranciscoZionist

OK. I will say that free clinics, ERs and charitable organizations are not adequate to what I consider a reasonable standard of health care for a nation with the resources of ours.

'Being seen by a doctor' is not a reasonable standard, if the doctor can only tell you "you're SOL".

And at times THE richest of us with access to THE best doctors are SOL

$$$ doesn't ensure staying above the grass

285 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:54:30pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

What else should the "government" (read us) provide for the poor? (and again, there are venues of local, state, and fed that DO provide care)

What size house should be "provided". What year/ make/ model auto? Should the government ensure not more than 10% fat content in ground round for them? 2-ply toilet paper? Again ,, NOBODY is thrown out of an ER because they do not have a "cadilac plan H.I.

They may not be thrown out of the ER, but a large number of people get thrown out of their homes because they get outrageous bills from the ER. Should anyone in this country need to make the choice between getting life-saving treatment and losing their home?

286 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:56:19pm

re: #270 suchislife

it was made in the US. it's shown everywhere in europe. again, I'm not stating this was done with a racist intention. I'm saying it knowingly or unknowingly echoes a racist caricature tradition.

I would personally argue that very few forms of media are free of echoes of prejudice. In this case you can certainly see it as a modern twist on the oversexed and therefore dangerous to the status quo black male. On the other hand only very rarely do you see people breaking off their nose while walking down the street.
In this case I can tell you however that the commercial was intended for the argentinian market, with an argentinian agency behind it. That means that the idea and script came from Argentina and not from the US even though it was filmed in LA as far as I can tell.

Advertiser: UNILEVER
Product/Service: AXE DARK TEMPTATION DEODORANT
Advertising Agency, City: VEGAOLMOSPONCE, Buenos Aires
Country: ARGENTINA
Advertising Agency, City: VEGAOLMOSPONCE, Buenos Aires
Country: ARGENTINA
Executive Creative Director: Hernán Ponce
Copywriter: Mario Crudele
Art Director: Martín Ponce
Agency Producer: Roberto Carsillo/Jose Silva
Account Supervisor: Néstor Ferreyro
Advertiser's Supervisor: Pablo Gazzera/Tomás Marcenaro/Hernán De Majo/Fernando Laratro
Production Company, City: MJZ, Los Angeles
Country: USA
Producer: Jeff Scruton
Director: Tom Kuntz
Editor: Final Cut
Music - Artist/Title: Allen Toussaint/"A Sweet Touch Of Love"
Sound Design/Arrangement: La Casa Post Sound
Post Production: The Mill LA
Other Credits: Client Services Director: Vanina Rudaeff / Brand Planning Director: Diego Luque

287 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:57:02pm

re: #269 Charles

That's what I think. I don't believe in coincidences like this.

He has a team of people working for him full time keeping up on all issues and so 'he can be on top of them.' It would be the safest and most practical assumption that he sure as hell did know about it before Couric asked him, but if he didn't, he sure as hell knew about it right after.

288 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:57:24pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

What else should the "government" (read us) provide for the poor? (and again, there are venues of local, state, and fed that DO provide care)

What size house should be "provided". What year/ make/ model auto? Should the government ensure not more than 10% fat content in ground round for them? 2-ply toilet paper? Again ,, NOBODY is thrown out of an ER because they do not have a "cadilac plan H.I.

You better get good footing because this slope is slippery.

289 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:58:07pm

re: #255 enoughalready

Blackface was an form of entertainment that originated in the US. Not in Spain. If you want to make connections then make sure they are actually connected to something.

You know those European-style sugar cookies that are frosted half chocolate, half white frosting? In German bakeries, I discovered, they're called "Amerikaners".

290 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:58:08pm

re: #285 ~Fianna

Again, I've never said the current system is perfect or even close. But whats on the table now which now comes to light won't even cover 25 million of the 45 million "uninsured' is not the answer imho

291 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #285 ~Fianna

They may not be thrown out of the ER, but a large number of people get thrown out of their homes because they get outrageous bills from the ER. Should anyone in this country need to make the choice between getting life-saving treatment and losing their home?

IMO most people do think that the system could be greatly improved, but I seriously doubt that bureaucrats in Washington are the ones to improve it.

292 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:58:55pm

re: #199 sattv4u2

Not really

Just because more people would "have" health care coverage (having it being a different argument) doesn't mean it's better

If you frequent a restaurant that serves 100 people a night and gives very good service, do you not think that adding 50 people a night cuts down on service, not to mention the quality of product? (more meals prepared means more mistakes in the kitchen)

The above is Devils advocate

I understand, but the fact is that the restaurant, in your analogy, *is* feeding them, but in the kitchen, where resources are scarcer (no wait staff to perform triage- think of them as the GPs.).

293 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:58:56pm

re: #288 lastlaugh

You better get good footing because this slope is slippery.

Thats why I brought it up. "Giving" "FREE" health care to everyone is the 1st step off that precipice!

294 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 12:59:05pm

re: #261 suchislife

I totally agree that this is about women and chocolate and sex. But, a video can tell several stories at once, and they can affirm or even contradict each other. And you do know that there is a tradition of casting the black man as oversexed and irresistible to white women?

Yes, I knew that. But I think this may be a truffle too far.

295 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:22pm

BBIAB

(I hate when I have to do work while I'm at work on a Sunday!!!))

296 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:48pm

re: #290 sattv4u2

Again, I've never said the current system is perfect or even close. But whats on the table now which now comes to light won't even cover 25 million of the 45 million "uninsured' is not the answer imho

I hate the Baccus bill. It's the worst of all worlds.

I'm a big supporter of the public option, though. Just allow people to opt in to medicare regardless of age. It'll actually pull down the cost of medicare, too, because younger people use less and use less expensive health care than seniors do.

297 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:51pm

OT - caught VDH's new essay... he is in full-on cultural-atavist/revanchist mode today. Sad. Oh, and the comments at PJM (with their new hate-clause free system) in response to this essay? Here is a classic:

23. Gordon DeSpain:

[...]

Since then [a Times-Life series of books] vanished from Libraries all over American, along with the Set that replaced them. I’ve found 5 sets of the original Series, and, 3 of the follow-on, all broken sets with no sign of a Volume that defines “the End of Golden Ages.”

As near as I can replicate the markers, they are:

1. About 150 to 200 years into the life of the Civilization, Women begin rising to positions of Great Power, resulting in…

2. A Tsunami of Rules Regulations,[...]

3. A burgeoning fleet of Agencies, [...]

4. Imbalance of Trade as the Upper Class stops doing business with local Artisans, [...]

5. The Flight of Capital to Foreign Ports [...]

6. The Flight of Industry to those same Foreign Ports [...]

8. The denigration and pushing away of the Citizen Soldier [...]

11. Meanwhile, the Great Ladies are hopping from Bed to Bed ensuring that their now coddled Sons (Artists, Poets, Writers, Sculptors, etc, taught to “feel their feminen side”) will receive commissions as Officers of the new Professional Soldiery [...]

12. The Ladies, in the meantime, have purged that Palace and all Government Offices of “Men of Violence [...]

When the Great Ladies decide to civilize the citizenry, the first thing they start wheedling, conniving, and, plotting amongst their friends to ban are Weapons in the hands of the Common Citizen. “The people don’t need Weapons,” they say, “We have enough men and Weapons to protect everyone. [...]

It’s imperative to know these Markers, because all but the last are done deals. To fight it, we need to know the tactics that are being use against us, and, it’s all happening at once. [...]

Wow, full on misogyny in the comments at PJM. All in response to yet another half-assed "essay" by VDH.

298 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:54pm

re: #285 ~Fianna

They may not be thrown out of the ER, but a large number of people get thrown out of their homes because they get outrageous bills from the ER. Should anyone in this country need to make the choice between getting life-saving treatment and losing their home?

That assumption, that the hospital will take your home for payment, is not accurate in my experience. These institutions will take payments over time as can be afforded and usually at no interest.

299 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:59pm

re: #283 BigPapa

sattv4u2 did not address the point (addressed to them) of whether catching a disease early with a simple family doctor appointment was worth a life in debt or cut short.
I was being heavy handed - no question - but do feel it was not sddressed.

I'll take back the emotionally blackmailing aspect of the question and leave it to be answered in purely hypothetical form.

300 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:00:59pm

re: #135 Thanos

Nonic:
The picture of our President with a bone through his nose practicing voodoo is every bit as offensive as a cartoon of a Jew with large hooked nose and fangs slavering over a bowl of blood would be.

Nonic, do you have a response to this specific comment from Thanos? I'm very interested in one.

For that matter, anybody else who doesn't think the Obama Witch Doctor picture is racist or abhorrent, please respond to this comment.

301 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:01:30pm

re: #293 sattv4u2

Thats why I brought it up. "Giving" "FREE" health care to everyone is the 1st step off that precipice!

But you already said everyone can get adequate health care regardless of ability to pay.

302 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:01:31pm

re: #284 sattv4u2

And at times THE richest of us with access to THE best doctors are SOL

$$$ doesn't ensure staying above the grass

True. It does help an awful lot at other times.

303 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:03:12pm

re: #298 The Shadow Do

That assumption, that the hospital will take your home for payment, is not accurate in my experience. These institutions will take payments over time as can be afforded and usually at no interest.

Not always. Bankruptcy due to medical issues accounts for a large percentage of all filed bankruptcies.

Fact Check has a pretty honest and balanced look at the numbers here

304 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:04:52pm

re: #301 lastlaugh

But you already said everyone can get adequate health care regardless of ability to pay.

I NEVER said that

What I said (accurately) was that nobody is DENIED (i.e. free clinics,,, ER's ,,, etc) care

But nice try

305 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:04:53pm

re: #297 freetoken

OT - caught VDH's new essay... he is in full-on cultural-atavist/revanchist mode today. Sad. Oh, and the comments at PJM (with their new hate-clause free system) in response to this essay? Here is a classic:


Wow, full on misogyny in the comments at PJM. All in response to yet another half-assed "essay" by VDH.

God almighty.

Let me guess. In a prospering Golden Age, women are chaste and stay home and like their men rough and rugged.

Wonder what these guys think about Elizabeth I.

306 dugmartsch  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:06:18pm

re: #285 ~Fianna

They may not be thrown out of the ER, but a large number of people get thrown out of their homes because they get outrageous bills from the ER. Should anyone in this country need to make the choice between getting life-saving treatment and losing their home?

It's a breakdown of the social contract is what it is. That if I work hard and provide services that society needs and values I'll have affordable access to the basic goods and services I need to live. Society is literally breaking down when that basic standard is not being met.

The bigger problem is that the market is so terribly distorted that the care-givers aren't liable to society for the price gouging that's occurring.

307 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:06:20pm

re: #286 enoughalready

In this case I can tell you however that the commercial was intended for the argentinian market, with an argentinian agency behind it. That means that the idea and script came from Argentina and not from the US even though it was filmed in LA as far as I can tell./blockquote>

Interesting, thanks! I'm not really surprised, though, because I do believe that it was probably done without racist intentions. The reason I posted it was because I thought it was a good example of something that can legitimately be seen as racist and as not racist at all, and when I saw it and compared the reaction on some black community blogs to the reaction of people who saw only chocolate, it drove home the point that one should retain an open mind, even with such an emotional issue. Although of course, some things are obvious.

308 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:06:32pm

re: #299 wozzablog

Again, as I've stated (and for some reason you want to ignore) our system is NOT perfect

The current proposed alternatives will make it worse, imho, and admittedly (by the CBO) will not even cover half of the uninsured

309 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:07:48pm

re: #304 sattv4u2

I NEVER said that

What I said (accurately) was that nobody is DENIED (i.e. free clinics,,, ER's ,,, etc) care

But nice try

Nobody is denied what? Let's start there. What is the baseline of health care that anyone can access. And do you believe that it is adequate, or could we do better?

Please note, I at least, have not said, 'everyone should get top of the line coverage FREE!' which seems to be creeping in as the alternative to what we have now. I don't think anyone here's promoting that.

310 jaunte  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:07:51pm

re: #297 freetoken

Sounds like another group that haven't read Virginia Postrel's book
The Future and Its Enemies: The Growing Conflict Over Creativity, Enterprise, and Progress
(or maybe they have, and have simply decided they prefer stasis).

311 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:08:36pm

re: #296 ~Fianna

I hate the Baccus bill. It's the worst of all worlds.

I'm a big supporter of the public option, though. Just allow people to opt in to medicare regardless of age. It'll actually pull down the cost of medicare, too, because younger people use less and use less expensive health care than seniors do.

Heard on the radio last week that some congressman is actually proposing that. Didn't catch the name nor have had time to look for it on the intertoobies

312 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:09:06pm

re: #282 sattv4u2

Really? - the old slippery slope?.

If the Government should have no role in Healthcare - lets get rid of Medicaid and Medicare - why should their be Public Police Forces, Fire Brigades or Coast Guard?.

Why should a police man come to my house if i don't have enough money for a burglar alarm or guard dog - and for that matter a couple of Claymore mines on the stoop./

Why should someone from the Fire Service come calling when a neighbour spots smoke?

Why should a fisherman get rescued by the coast guard?

but - hey - while there is still toilet tissue to regulate and regulation bagel hole sizes to inspect - lets forget the entire thing and concentrate on more important matters like regulation cupholder size in the new Taho /

313 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:10:21pm

Fox will just offer documentedproof that Dr. McKallip has let black people use his bathroom at some point...

The sad part is that the bone-in-the-nose imagery is not only racist and tasteless, it is overkill, a photoshop of Obama in most any other pose (a doctor's gown, etc) would've sufficed along with the hammer and sickle to get the point across without dragging it down to such an abysmal level

314 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:11:24pm

re: #311 sattv4u2

Heard on the radio last week that some congressman is actually proposing that. Didn't catch the name nor have had time to look for it on the intertoobies

Also seems like it would help the insurance companies, too, since some of those people will also want to purchase medigap plans like a lot of seniors do. Plus we already have the mechanism in place to handle the payment, regulation, enrollment, etc. Why make another system when we have on already?

315 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:11:41pm

re: #307 suchislife

I am sure that some black people might feel insulted by this. I am quite sure that was the reason why Unilever pulled the commercial apparently.

316 Charles Johnson  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:11:47pm

re: #313 ralphieboy

Fox will just offer documentedproof that Dr. McKallip has let black people use his bathroom at some point...

The sad part is that the bone-in-the-nose imagery is not only racist and tasteless, it is overkill, a photoshop of Obama in most any other pose (a doctor's gown, etc) would've sufficed along with the hammer and sickle to get the point across without dragging it down to such an abysmal level

You're assuming that there really is a "deeper" point than racist ugliness. I don't make that assumption. I think the creator of this image (it wasn't McKalip, by the way) conveyed exactly the point he intended.

317 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:12:38pm

re: #309 SanFranciscoZionist

Nobody is denied what? Let's start there. What is the baseline of health care that anyone can access. And do you believe that it is adequate, or could we do better?

Please note, I at least, have not said, 'everyone should get top of the line coverage FREE!' which seems to be creeping in as the alternative to what we have now. I don't think anyone here's promoting that.

BASELINE is when you get sick you should be seen and treated. When we started going off the rails is when the ins companise started having to pay for every sniffle visit

That said, is "preventive" care better? Of course, just like you should change the oil in your car every 3-5k miles. But you CAR insurance policy doesn't cover that. Nor does it cover when you need tires, an air filter, a tune up, ect.

When I was young and I had the sniffles, the doctor (Dr. Stoller, with the old black bag and all) came to our house. my parents paid him out of pocket.
What their health ins was for is if I needed my tonsils out, or some type of "catastrophic" procedure

318 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:12:42pm

re: #303 ~Fianna

Not always. Bankruptcy due to medical issues accounts for a large percentage of all filed bankruptcies.

Fact Check has a pretty honest and balanced look at the numbers here

Bankrupcy can be a convenient safety net, particularly for those who have stacked up debt beyond just the medical. Bankruptcy will allow you to keep your house too, at least in the states I have lived in.

319 TedStriker  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:13:26pm

re: #313 ralphieboy

Fox will just offer documentedproof that Dr. McKallip has let black people use his bathroom at some point...

The sad part is that the bone-in-the-nose imagery is not only racist and tasteless, it is overkill, a photoshop of Obama in most any other pose (a doctor's gown, etc) would've sufficed along with the hammer and sickle to get the point across without dragging it down to such an abysmal level

McKallip was throwing red meat out to the Stormfront crowd, guaranteed...his ass isn't sorry he did it, he's only sorry so many saw it for what it really is and went "WTF?!?!"

320 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:13:55pm

re: #312 wozzablog

Really? - the old slippery slope?.

If the Government should have no role in Healthcare - lets get rid of Medicaid and Medicare - why should their be Public Police Forces, Fire Brigades or Coast Guard?/

False analogy to compare health care with Fire/Police/Medical medical services. It's also a Fallacy of Absolute to assume that no change to the current system or questioning whether a government run system means the resultant argument is all government influence should be removed.

321 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:14:05pm

re: #316 Charles

You're assuming that there really is a "deeper" point than racist ugliness. I don't make that assumption. I think the creator of this image (it wasn't McKalip, by the way) conveyed exactly the point he intended.


In the sense of opposing Obamacare as creeping socialism - something I fail to agree with, but would at least be able to put under the label of "acceptable criticism"


But this is just hideous and an affront to anyone with any sense of decency, black or white,

322 TedStriker  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:15:10pm

re: #319 talon_262

Correction: McKallip didn't create the Obama chop, but he sure promoted it.

323 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:15:36pm

re: #317 sattv4u2

BASELINE is when you get sick you should be seen and treated. When we started going off the rails is when the ins companise started having to pay for every sniffle visit

That said, is "preventive" care better? Of course, just like you should change the oil in your car every 3-5k miles. But you CAR insurance policy doesn't cover that. Nor does it cover when you need tires, an air filter, a tune up, ect.

When I was young and I had the sniffles, the doctor (Dr. Stoller, with the old black bag and all) came to our house. my parents paid him out of pocket.
What their health ins was for is if I needed my tonsils out, or some type of "catastrophic" procedure

I don't think the sniffles are our biggest problem here. I agree that the way we sell and insure health care needs to be changed--which is why I support health care reform. The current system is not working for too many people, my own family included. And we've all got Kaiser at the moment.

324 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:15:40pm

re: #320 BigPapa

False analogy to compare health care with Fire/Police/Medical medical services.

How? They are all a part of the public good, are they not?

325 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:15:43pm

re: #271 brookly red

Yes! I suspect Beck is reaching further and further to top himself. Like a drunk driver sitting in a Fast & Furious tuner car who floors it then finds the boost button. I expect a similar conclusion-a big crash for Beck.

326 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:16:27pm

re: #318 The Shadow Do

Bankrupcy can be a convenient safety net, particularly for those who have stacked up debt beyond just the medical. Bankruptcy will allow you to keep your house too, at least in the states I have lived in.

Bankruptcy numbers also aren't accounting for the cost to people who wind up in collections and have a hard time getting a job or apartment.

I had emergency surgery without insurance. It cost me 18k. Even under a payment plan, it went to collections (the hospital I went to did their payment plan through an agency, so it was reported on my credit report as being "in collections" because the bill is due 30 days after you're released, otherwise it goes to their agency to work out something.)

It also cost me almost twice what my insurance company paid when I had a more complex version of the same surgery 3 years later with insurance. The bill for that, with a 3-day stay was 11.5k. The first time, with no hospital stay and no follow up care was 18k.

327 TedStriker  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:16:32pm

re: #325 Rightwingconspirator

Yes! I suspect Beck is reaching further and further to top himself. Like a drunk driver sitting in a Fast & Furious tuner car who floors it then finds the boost button. I expect a similar conclusion-a big crash for Beck.

Hopefully, Beck will learn this: pride comes before a fall.

328 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:16:35pm

re: #310 jaunte

I doubt they are thinking as deeply as Postrel.

Rather, these people (and I'm including VDH here) are just overwhelmed by the year 2009 and wish it were 1909 instead.

329 Oh no...Sand People!  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:18:09pm

Bed time...

Later all.

330 Eclectic Infidel  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:18:49pm

re: #272 SanFranciscoZionist

Oh, you go, girlfriend!

331 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:18:55pm

re: #317 sattv4u2

Baseline - in Canada, Australia, France, Germany, Britain, Scandinavia, New Zealand - is family doctor, optometrist and dental. Then second tier hospital out patient care for long term conditions - and third tier inpatient care.

America is seriously out of whack with what Baseline coverage is.

The current proposals from the Senate suck - a genuine Public Option (that covers a proper baseline) is the minimum required for people on no plan, COBRA and other catastrophic plans who are inching their way toward medicare a month at a time - and ten years is a lot of months for someone with an underlying condition.

332 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:19:03pm

re: #328 freetoken

I doubt they are thinking as deeply as Postrel.

Rather, these people (and I'm including VDH here) are just overwhelmed by the year 2009 and wish it were 1909 instead.

But if I finish all my chores, and you finish thine,
Then tonight we're gonna party like it's 1699."

/Living In An Amish Paradise

333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:19:18pm

C'mon Baltimore... c'mon...

334 watching you tiny alien kittens are  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:19:50pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Sharmuta - you are so right.
I was looking at some other blogs yesterday. Any rational conservative or GOPer who does not toe the hard-core social-conservative line is being kicked under the bus as "RINO", or Democrat-in-Disguise, etc. Beck and company want those conservatives out of the party.

All too true unfortunately, I honestly cannot stand to read the comments at a lot of sites anymore, too much unreasoning hate is bad for my peace of mind. If it isn't the So-Con "back to the 50's" make believe nonsense it is the conspiracy retards, or worse a combination of two, ughh! Unless your willing to buy into the baseless fear mongering proffered by the idiots as a fact you are obviously a "evil Obama lover who drank the koolaid." You can no longer discuss the Presidents policies and possible ways to counter them, nope, you have to discuss death panels, Fema camps, and the Amero currency. Followed of course by the coming socialist putsch and counter-revolution by the freedom loving patriots...wtf!?!?

Excuse me but for some bizarre reason I would rather discuss political reality than laup nor/senoj xela fantasy themes. I can't even humor these peoples flights of fancy in order to get along anymore, even when it is only to try to insert a little reality into the thread, I still felt guilty by association when I did.

335 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:20:04pm

re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

poop

336 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:21:07pm

re: #324 allegro

How? They are all a part of the public good, are they not?

There's two ways to go with this. Let's try slippery slope:

So is food and shelter, and cars. We should have a Food Plan and Shelter Plan and Car Plan too. That's all in the public good, no?

Back to comparing Fire/Police/Coast Guard:

All those services are mostly for catastrophic events and not all people will need services from them over their life. The complexity and administration of these services pale in comparison to health care, as does the cost. Only in the most simplest of terms can you compare them.

337 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:21:56pm

re: #331 wozzablog

The current proposals from the Senate suck

Then we agree

Again, i've never said the current system is perfect. It NEEDS reform. I can think of several that may or may not help, but none of them would topple the applecart the way(s) whats being proposed will

338 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:22:19pm

re: #325 Rightwingconspirator

Yes! I suspect Beck is reaching further and further to top himself. Like a drunk driver sitting in a Fast & Furious tuner car who floors it then finds the boost button. I expect a similar conclusion-a big crash for Beck.

Maybe, but the the folks up in corporate had to approve this so they must feel that there is a audience...

339 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:22:31pm

re: #326 ~Fianna

Bankruptcy numbers also aren't accounting for the cost to people who wind up in collections and have a hard time getting a job or apartment.

I had emergency surgery without insurance. It cost me 18k. Even under a payment plan, it went to collections (the hospital I went to did their payment plan through an agency, so it was reported on my credit report as being "in collections" because the bill is due 30 days after you're released, otherwise it goes to their agency to work out something.)

It also cost me almost twice what my insurance company paid when I had a more complex version of the same surgery 3 years later with insurance. The bill for that, with a 3-day stay was 11.5k. The first time, with no hospital stay and no follow up care was 18k.

That is terrible. The hospital should be ashamed, and publicly shamed. There is competition among hospitals where I live and reputations are valued. Not so much where your were evidently.

340 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:23:08pm

re: #318 The Shadow Do

Bankrupcy can be a convenient safety net, particularly for those who have stacked up debt beyond just the medical. Bankruptcy will allow you to keep your house too, at least in the states I have lived in.

Then the rest of us pay your inflated defaulted costs in higher premiums, on top of the costs the insurance company pays for bill collectors, policy "review" personnel, &c, ad infinitum. That's a broken system. The insurance companies *will* make their money. They are the casino, we are the shills.

341 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:23:13pm

re: #336 BigPapa

Its worth noting that Social Security started far smaller that what it evolved up to. Getting this done is sensible stages makes sense to me. Overreaching can have terrible consequences.

342 TheMatrix31  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:24:07pm

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

343 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:24:40pm

re: #320 BigPapa

Why - then - is it more important to have a police force to protect everyones property - than it is to have a government plan to protect everyones health?

Is it because Property is more important? - who would - honestly - rate protection of property higher than protection of person?.

And on the "Abolutism" argument - if medicare and medicaid are to stay - what is then wrong with using the same mechanism to plug the last gap in coverage?.

344 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:24:47pm

re: #339 The Shadow Do

That is terrible. The hospital should be ashamed, and publicly shamed. There is competition among hospitals where I live and reputations are valued. Not so much where your were evidently.

We've got one public hospital. It's chronically underfunded.

It's also fairly common to charge cash patients more than insurance patients. Part of how insurance is successful is that it negotiates costs based on referring patients. The hospital knows that being party of, say, Cigna's network will bring it patients, so it gives Cigna a discount for their group.

Cash patients have no leverage and also have fewer options, and the service has already been rendered, so what can you do?

345 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:25:13pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

Dude. That's weather, not climate.

346 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:25:31pm

Speaking of the Amish, I was once reading a blog that included a lot of ex-Amish, and some girl was on a thread, going on about how much she wanted to become Amish--there are a lot of Amish groupies BTW, and it's damn weird. And one brilliant guy said to her, after telling her how difficult it is for people who marry in:

"You know, if you want to lead a simple, godly life, you can do that in your own community."

I don't think that's exactly what she wanted, but to the people who can't stand it that the 50s left them behind, honestly, there is nothing at all stopping them from leading any kind of life they want. What they want is to tell everyone ELSE how to live.

347 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:25:50pm

re: #341 Rightwingconspirator

Its worth noting that Social Security started far smaller that what it evolved up to. Getting this done is sensible stages makes sense to me. Overreaching can have terrible consequences.

and SS is still broke...

348 TheMatrix31  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:25:53pm

re: #345 austin_blue

Ya ya ya

349 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:05pm

re: #334 ausador

In the 50's it was fluoridation, rock'n'roll music and comic books: all Commie plots posited to justify McCarthyesque extremism.

Nowadays it is death panels, birthers and FEMA camps: plots posited to justify right-wing extremism

350 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:19pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

I was born and raised in Boston

Thats not a "huge storm", thats a dusting
That stated, I now live in Atlanta. If we had that much snow schools would be closed for a week and there wouldn't be any milk on the shelves

351 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:29pm

re: #336 BigPapa

So is food and shelter, and cars.

Red herring. It has been mentioned here previously that PUBLIC health is a very real issue. Communicable disease control is a biggie. Without health care accessibility for all, a few sick people not being diagnosed and treated can (and does - see SARS, etc.) result in epidemic levels of disease. This also includes immunization programs that protect not just the ones being immunized, but the public at large.

352 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:47pm

re: #337 sattv4u2

The current proposals from the Senate suck

Then we agree

Again, i've never said the current system is perfect. It NEEDS reform. I can think of several that may or may not help, but none of them would topple the applecart the way(s) whats being proposed will

What do you see as the long-term effects of what's being proposed?

353 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:48pm

re: #340 austin_blue

Then the rest of us pay your inflated defaulted costs in higher premiums, on top of the costs the insurance company pays for bill collectors, policy "review" personnel, &c, ad infinitum. That's a broken system. The insurance companies *will* make their money. They are the casino, we are the shills.

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

354 sattv4u2  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:49pm

BBIAB

355 jaunte  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:26:57pm

re: #346 SanFranciscoZionist

... to the people who can't stand it that the 50s left them behind, honestly, there is nothing at all stopping them from leading any kind of life they want. What they want is to tell everyone ELSE how to live.

Exactly.

356 TheMatrix31  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:27:26pm

re: #350 sattv4u2

That's for damn sure.

357 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:27:28pm

re: #340 austin_blue

Then the rest of us pay your inflated defaulted costs in higher premiums, on top of the costs the insurance company pays for bill collectors, policy "review" personnel, &c, ad infinitum. That's a broken system. The insurance companies *will* make their money. They are the casino, we are the shills.

So the answer is to let one giant entity 'pay' for it all so it gets cheaper for all of us?

358 Randall Gross  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:28:14pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

Meanwhile it's warmer than normal in the Northern Plains, it's called weather

[Link: www.google.com...]

Also note that Hurricane Rick is tearing up Baja

[Link: www.google.com...]

359 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:28:38pm

I worked for a Medical Collection agency for many years. Was owned by a Hospital system. We even opened up a group of in-house people who would visit patients in their room to search out whether they qualified for different public things.

We'd work with people as much as we could.

At the same time...

I worked with some bill collectors who were the most evil, uncaring people you had ever seen. Who would piss people off on purpose.

Absolutely hated what I did. And, I was not a bill collector. Couldn't do it in a million years.

360 enoughalready  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:28:38pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.


Gasp! Proof there is no global warming! Finally!

361 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:29:03pm

re: #336 BigPapa

cars are not an essential good. people do not die because they do not have cars.
Life is incredbily difficult in some areas without a car - but to compare a car to insulin or beta blockers is - borderline crass.
People can live two weeks without a car. take away insulin or heart pills from someone for two weeks... and well, see what happens.

362 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:29:16pm

re: #344 ~Fianna

We've got one public hospital. It's chronically underfunded.

It's also fairly common to charge cash patients more than insurance patients. Part of how insurance is successful is that it negotiates costs based on referring patients. The hospital knows that being party of, say, Cigna's network will bring it patients, so it gives Cigna a discount for their group.

Cash patients have no leverage and also have fewer options, and the service has already been rendered, so what can you do?

The entire time we were dealing with my father's cancer diagosis, and blood clot diagnosis, and a whole lot of scary shit that happened all at once, my mother and I kept looking at each other every couple of hours and saying "Thank God we're not doing this at San Francisco General".

If they had not had Kaiser, I am fairly sure my father would not be alive today.

363 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:29:30pm

re: #344 ~Fianna

We've got one public hospital. It's chronically underfunded.

It's also fairly common to charge cash patients more than insurance patients. Part of how insurance is successful is that it negotiates costs based on referring patients. The hospital knows that being party of, say, Cigna's network will bring it patients, so it gives Cigna a discount for their group.

Cash patients have no leverage and also have fewer options, and the service has already been rendered, so what can you do?

You could possibly fight the charges through the courts in some manner, but more likely you will end up as you did - taking it in the ear.

364 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:29:43pm

re: #357 BigPapa

who proposed that?

365 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:29:59pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

My COBRA runs out at the end of the month & I have been insurance shopping, there are some good and affordable plans out there.

366 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:30:20pm

re: #344 ~Fianna

Thats backwards from an MRI lab near me. We paid $700 cash for a head scan with contrast dye. That cash rate was negotiated down from their normal insurance rate of more than $1000 for the same scan. The explanation was insurance companies underpay or try to delay/avoid payment. BTW-Those were high stress scary days A brain tumor was suspected and ruled out. Whew!

367 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:30:24pm

re: #345 austin_blue

Dude. That's weather, not climate.

There is no difference! We will not believe in global warming until it STOPS SNOWING altogether!

/it's not snowing in Northern California right now.

368 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:30:50pm

This thread is skirting a fundamental discussion: the Free market (TM) has its limits, and those include being used to manage and regulate a nation's resources. These include not only natural resources like coal and oil, but other vital resources like clean air and clear water.

And, in the end, the health of America's people is a valuable resource: one on which the nation's well being directly depends. Is it worth leaving this valuable resource entirely in the hands of profit-oriented comapnies?

We choose to leave it to a great estent in their hands, but not entirely. Now there is an attempt being made to remove more of it from their direct control.

369 Killgore Trout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:31:04pm

Very interesting discussion on this thread. We've gone through a lot of changes here over the past few months but we've finally arrived at a point where real discussion on healthcare is taking place. I don't see anybody making overblown arguments, people aren't jumping on dissenters, etc. It's a real left meets right discussion that would not have been possible here a few months ago. I'm happy to see it.

370 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:31:15pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

Really? I, like most folks, have insurance through my employer. How much choice do I have to get another policy? And have you checked your insurer for the number of claims denied because of "pre-existing conditions" after the fact? Can you even *find* those numbers?

I'll bet you can't. That info is often "proprietary".

371 The Sanity Inspector  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:31:44pm

re: #300 BigPapa

Nonic, do you have a response to this specific comment from Thanos? I'm very interested in one.

For that matter, anybody else who doesn't think the Obama Witch Doctor picture is racist or abhorrent, please respond to this comment.

Maybe he just needs time to think it over. "He who is persuaded against his will / is secretly of the same opinion still."

372 freetoken  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:31:47pm

re: #358 Thanos

Also note that Hurricane Rick is tearing up Baja

Yes, during the last two days Rick has been the most impressive storm this year, as seen from satellite:

[Link: www.ssd.noaa.gov...]

It had a huge annular formation of very cold cloud tops last night.

373 suchislife  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:32:23pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

how do you feel about adding a public option to those many policies?

374 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:32:25pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

Actually, most people don't get to choose. Their company does so for them.

375 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:32:49pm

Ricky is tearin' up Baja? he's gonna have a lot of splainin' to do!!!

376 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:32:52pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

It was 95 in los angeles on Friday. GW is happening faster than we think.

377 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:33:07pm

re: #365 brookly red

My COBRA runs out at the end of the month & I have been insurance shopping, there are some good and affordable plans out there.

Are you in Brooklyn? I'm trying to find a policy for catastrophic coverage for my young daughter there. Any ideas?

378 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:33:31pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Very interesting discussion on this thread. We've gone through a lot of changes here over the past few months but we've finally arrived at a point where real discussion on healthcare is taking place. I don't see anybody making overblown arguments, people aren't jumping on dissenters, etc. It's a real left meets right discussion that would not have been possible here a few months ago. I'm happy to see it.

Isn't it nice?

379 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:33:38pm

re: #366 Rightwingconspirator

Thats backwards from an MRI lab near me. We paid $700 cash for a head scan with contrast dye. That cash rate was negotiated down from their normal insurance rate of more than $1000 for the same scan. The explanation was insurance companies underpay or try to delay/avoid payment. BTW-Those were high stress scary days A brain tumor was suspected and ruled out. Whew!

with providers, you can do that. with emergency services, you go where the ambulance takes you. hard to negotiate with a morphine drip in your arm and severe internal bleeding.

380 Vicious Babushka  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:33:46pm

re: #359 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I worked with some bill collectors who were the most evil, uncaring people you had ever seen. Who would piss people off on purpose.

If they were less evil and more caring, they would be in another line of work.

Collections agents are just losers who did not qualify for law school.

381 TheMatrix31  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:33:57pm

re: #376 lastlaugh

95 in LA? That's just weather, not climate.

/reinforcing my point that it's all weather

382 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:34:14pm

re: #377 The Shadow Do

Are you in Brooklyn? I'm trying to find a policy for catastrophic coverage for my young daughter there. Any ideas?

are you self employed?

383 njdhockeyfan  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:34:15pm

re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist

There is no difference! We will not believe in global warming until it STOPS SNOWING altogether!

/it's not snowing in Northern California right now.

The Ruskies say they can do that.

Moscow Mayor Promises a Winter Without Snow

Pigs still can't fly, but this winter, the mayor of Moscow promises to keep it from snowing. For just a few million dollars, the mayor's office will hire the Russian Air Force to spray a fine chemical mist over the clouds before they reach the capital, forcing them to dump their snow outside the city. Authorities say this will be a boon for Moscow, which is typically covered with a blanket of snow from November to March. Road crews won't need to constantly clear the streets, and traffic - and quality of life - will undoubtedly improve.

The idea came from Mayor Yury Luzhkov, who is no stranger to playing God. In 2002, he spearheaded a project to reverse the flow of the vast River Ob through Siberia to help irrigate the country's parched Central Asian neighbors. Although that idea hasn't exactly turned out as planned - scientists have said it's not feasible - this time, Luzhkov says, there's no way he can fail. (See TIME's photo-essay "Vladimir Putin: Action Figure.")

Controlling the weather in Moscow is nothing new, he says. Ahead of the two main holidays celebrated in the city each year - Victory Day in May and City Day in September - the often cash-strapped air force is paid to make sure that it doesn't, well, rain on the parades. With a city budget of $40 billion a year (larger than New York City's budget), Moscow can easily afford the $2-3 million price tag to keep the skies blue as spectators watch the tanks and rocket launchers roll along Red Square. Now there's a new challenge for the air force: Moscow's notorious blizzards.

384 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:34:18pm

re: #343 wozzablog

Why - then - is it more important to have a police force to protect everyones property - than it is to have a government plan to protect everyones health?

Actually in many cases the police do protect people's health and safety, not just property. But my personal health and maintenance of it is another matter, much different and much more complex and longer ranging. It's a mistake to compare the two on anything other than the most simplistic of levels.

You're taking this into absolute terms: if we have A from the government, then why not B? I'm bypassing that and asking you If A, and B, then why not to X/Y/Z?

385 Political Atheist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:34:42pm

re: #338 brookly red

Of course. There is an audience, that get to Not see 80 or so advertisers that pulled out. He's just not quite hit the wall yet. It could be months yet it could be today. Wow. Don Imus got with sincere efforts his job back, he must just shake his head at what Beck gets away with.

386 TheMatrix31  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:35:20pm

re: #383 njdhockeyfan

I'll believe it when I see it.

387 sagehen  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:35:33pm

re: #336 BigPapa

There's two ways to go with this. Let's try slippery slope:

So is food and shelter, and cars. We should have a Food Plan and Shelter Plan and Car Plan too. That's all in the public good, no?

We do. It's called Food Stamps and Section 8 housing and the subway/el/metrorail/bus.

Back to comparing Fire/Police/Coast Guard:

All those services are mostly for catastrophic events and not all people will need services from them over their life. The complexity and administration of these services pale in comparison to health care, as does the cost. Only in the most simplest of terms can you compare them.

But those services are *not* only for catastrophic events. They do a lot of preventive work. The police do traffic control, or provide security for large public gatherings (not waiting until there's a problem), the fire department does inspections and offers advice, the Coast Guard patrols just in case and provides information and advice as a routine matter. Individuals and businesses aren't billed for any of these services; it's taxpayer supported and available to everyone.

388 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:35:35pm

re: #370 austin_blue

Really? I, like most folks, have insurance through my employer. How much choice do I have to get another policy? And have you checked your insurer for the number of claims denied because of "pre-existing conditions" after the fact? Can you even *find* those numbers?

I'll bet you can't. That info is often "proprietary".

I can't buy independent of my employer. I'm too fat. (Blood pressure is fine, cholesterol is fine, no health problems except some tendonitis in my ankles, basically healthy as a chubby horse. Found out the hard way that I cannot buy basic health insurance on my own.)

389 Sol Berdinowitz  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:03pm

re: #383 njdhockeyfan


They tried seeding the clouds to keep it from raining on the Micael Jackson concert in 1993...it failed.

But we all know how God stood vis-a-vis MJ...

//

390 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:19pm

re: #369 Killgore Trout

Very interesting discussion on this thread. We've gone through a lot of changes here over the past few months but we've finally arrived at a point where real discussion on healthcare is taking place. I don't see anybody making overblown arguments, people aren't jumping on dissenters, etc. It's a real left meets right discussion that would not have been possible here a few months ago. I'm happy to see it.

Me too. I'm not getting GAZED at for flouting Conservative Orthodoxy.

It is a welcome change. And it is why Charles is getting hammered by the whacks.

Charles- thanks for taking the weight. We all appreciate it.

391 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:39pm

re: #370 austin_blue

Really? I, like most folks, have insurance through my employer. How much choice do I have to get another policy? And have you checked your insurer for the number of claims denied because of "pre-existing conditions" after the fact? Can you even *find* those numbers?

I'll bet you can't. That info is often "proprietary".

I too have my insurance through my employer. I have had two employers over the last twenty years and each offered a cafeteria choice of plans, from nothing, to catastrophic, to good, to really good. I choose my coverage and thus my payments.

392 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:36:48pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

Actually, you are not free to shop for anything if somebody else pays for it and you assume the costs are not your problem. You really don't care about it. The concept of competition in the health care industry is severely retarded by the fact that so many are insulated from the costs and back end admin of the systems.

393 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:37:08pm

re: #362 SanFranciscoZionist

The entire time we were dealing with my father's cancer diagosis, and blood clot diagnosis, and a whole lot of scary shit that happened all at once, my mother and I kept looking at each other every couple of hours and saying "Thank God we're not doing this at San Francisco General".

If they had not had Kaiser, I am fairly sure my father would not be alive today.

The difference between being an insurance patient and an uninsured patient is night and day. Without insurance, I had internal surgery as a "day patient" and was released to my husband about 30 minutes after I woke up from anaesthesia and told to find a doctor to make a followup appointment with in about a week. With insurance, I was in the hospital for 2 nights and was scheduled for 3 follow up appointments (one to get the staples out, and the next 2 to make sure that everything was healing okay and to monitor pain.)

394 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:37:41pm

re: #382 brookly red

are you self employed?

No, but she is. Dear old dad will pay the premiums if I can find something affordable.

395 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:38:24pm

re: #385 Rightwingconspirator

Of course. There is an audience, that get to Not see 80 or so advertisers that pulled out. He's just not quite hit the wall yet. It could be months yet it could be today. Wow. Don Imus got with sincere efforts his job back, he must just shake his head at what Beck gets away with.

for better or worse as long as there is an audience there will be advertisers.

396 SanFranciscoZionist  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:39:19pm

re: #380 Alouette

If they were less evil and more caring, they would be in another line of work.

Collections agents are just losers who did not qualify for law school.

I used to work for a company that staffed ERs. At one point, our collection agency screwed up big-time and started harassing people who had either already paid, or were on Medicare or Medicaid.

I spent weeks taking calls from terrified ex-patients, their social workers, and their relatives, and trying to talk to the collection agency. It was horrifying. The collection agency people treated me like a child, and kept explaining that 'these people lie'. "These people" at this point, included a NUN I had on the other line, who was explaining that not only did Mr. Nguyen have Medicare, but Medicare had paperwork showing they had already paid this bill, and would I like her to fax it over?

It was horrible.

397 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:40:09pm

re: #384 BigPapa

Government runs schoools and private schools exist.

Government runs medicare/medicaid and private plans exist.

Government runs mass transit - but cars still exist in NYC.


Unless you have a Communist Party of the True 4th International running for the President - which - forgive me - i don't see happening anytime soon - worrying about Z is worry over nothing.

+ tell me where i said the Government should have control over your healthcare if you don't want them to?. If you have Private insurance then bully for you - run wild. But - people with no care or hyper expsensive care would like the option of getting coverage from a pool - an "option" - if you have catastrophic cover for 10,000 a month on a 100k yearly take home - you are welcome to keep it if you want it.

398 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:40:18pm

re: #363 The Shadow Do

You could possibly fight the charges through the courts in some manner, but more likely you will end up as you did - taking it in the ear.

That's what I did. I tried to negotiate when I got the bill. They don't care. You sign the willingness to pay with the consent to treat. At that point, it was sign or die of internal bleeding.

I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, once the tube ruptured, I was essentially bleeding to death internally. I was very, very lucky that I was able to get to the phone, since I was home alone when it happened. By the time I got to a doctor, I barely had a pulse and was in absolutely excruciating pain.

399 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:40:26pm

re: #394 The Shadow Do

No, but she is. Dear old dad will pay the premiums if I can find something affordable.

well if she is then googel freelancers union

400 lastlaugh  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:40:37pm

re: #381 TheMatrix31

95 in LA? That's just weather, not climate.

/reinforcing my point that it's all weather

It's just picking data points and ignoring trends.

401 sagehen  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:16pm

re: #353 The Shadow Do

Actually, insurance companies are a busines like any other and your are not a shill, you are a customer who is free to shop for another policy if the price is too high or the service is poor.

Unless you're diabetic, or your wife had breast cancer 10 years ago, or one of your kids is asthmatic.

And how are you supposed to know the service is poor until after you needed them and they weren't there for you?

402 Wozza Matter?  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:25pm

g'night all.

headed to a bar where i shall get very drunk.

403 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:34pm

re: #398 ~Fianna

That's what I did. I tried to negotiate when I got the bill. They don't care. You sign the willingness to pay with the consent to treat. At that point, it was sign or die of internal bleeding.

I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, once the tube ruptured, I was essentially bleeding to death internally. I was very, very lucky that I was able to get to the phone, since I was home alone when it happened. By the time I got to a doctor, I barely had a pulse and was in absolutely excruciating pain.


Gah! Horrific!

404 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:41:47pm

re: #398 ~Fianna

That's what I did. I tried to negotiate when I got the bill. They don't care. You sign the willingness to pay with the consent to treat. At that point, it was sign or die of internal bleeding.

I had a ruptured ectopic pregnancy, once the tube ruptured, I was essentially bleeding to death internally. I was very, very lucky that I was able to get to the phone, since I was home alone when it happened. By the time I got to a doctor, I barely had a pulse and was in absolutely excruciating pain.

Wow, nice to have you here!

405 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:42:43pm

re: #399 brookly red

well if she is then googel freelancers union

Thank you, Red! Did not kinow where to start (I'm in TX)

406 Henchman Ghazi-808  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:44:32pm

re: #387 sagehen

But those services are *not* only for catastrophic events. They do a lot of preventive work. The police do traffic control, or provide security for large public gatherings (not waiting until there's a problem), the fire department does inspections and offers advice, the Coast Guard patrols just in case and provides information and advice as a routine matter. Individuals and businesses aren't billed for any of these services; it's taxpayer supported and available to everyone.

I never said they were 'only' for catastrophic events, but mostly are. These services administer needs to the society at large. Last I recall the health care changes being discussed will affect all of us, not just the poorest. If you are getting Section 8 and Food stamps you are getting equivalent health care to those services.

Many of these businesses and taxpayers are billed for these services directly, and we all pay for them through taxes. What is being advocated is to make this the model in some way shape or form for the health care industry which is much larger and more directly involved in all of our lives than these other services you discuss and are comparing.

407 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:45:22pm

re: #405 The Shadow Do

Thank you, Red! Did not kinow where to start (I'm in TX)

freelancers union (or FU as I call em) is national... w/out getting too personal, does your daughter work in advertising/marketing?

408 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:17pm

re: #407 brookly red

freelancers union (or FU as I call em) is national... w/out getting too personal, does your daughter work in advertising/marketing?

No, she doesn't.

409 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:46:19pm

re: #391 The Shadow Do

I too have my insurance through my employer. I have had two employers over the last twenty years and each offered a cafeteria choice of plans, from nothing, to catastrophic, to good, to really good. I choose my coverage and thus my payments.

I've worked for companies that offered a range. I've also worked for companies that offered one plan.

I tend to work for smaller businesses for a lot of reasons. The huge downside is that the insurance options usually range from crummy to nil.

Managing those plans are very expensive.

One thing I wonder, as an executive at a small company, is why in the world it's MY responsibility to provide health care. How did that get shunted off on businesses and why should we have to pay for it?

It adds a lot of cost for a company that offers health care. Managing the plan, enrolling people in to the plan, choosing the plan, etc. We don't offer health insurance at my current firm because we can't afford the overhead for it.

410 brookly red  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:47:20pm

re: #408 The Shadow Do

No, she doesn't.


OK, they still may have job postings for her too...

411 ~Fianna  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:49:09pm

re: #404 The Shadow Do

Wow, nice to have you here!

Nice to still be here.

The other part of the story is that my husband was begging me for a week and a half to see a doctor, but I didn't want to go because I didn't have insurance and we didn't have a lot of disposable cash at the time.

It was stupid and I'm really, really lucky that I didn't die because I was being both cheap and pigheaded.

412 austin_blue  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:49:44pm

What's the difference between an Oath Keeper and a Promise Keeper? Enquiring minds want to know! I'm off upthread.

Toodles!

413 allegro  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:49:49pm

re: #406 BigPapa

If you are getting Section 8 and Food stamps you are getting equivalent health care to those services.

Not necessarily. Depends on the state you're in.

414 sagehen  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:51:54pm

re: #377 The Shadow Do

Are you in Brooklyn? I'm trying to find a policy for catastrophic coverage for my young daughter there. Any ideas?

I'm in Manhattan... I've been pretty happy with my GHI policy. It doesn't cover office visits or routine care, major illness and injury only, and two doctors (one ortho, one ob/gyn) have told me it's the company least likely to jerk them around on pre-approvals.

415 Univac  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 1:56:28pm
... the Coast Guard patrols just in case and provides information and advice as a routine matter. Individuals and businesses aren't billed for any of these services; it's taxpayer supported and available to everyone.

And that is one example of the slippery slope.
The Coast Guard (USCG) was started as a revenue cutter service to collect tariffs and enforce trade laws/agreements. That is the reason they were originally in the Department of the Treasurer.

Over the years, their role has expanded to accomplish those things that needed to be done, but couldn't be done by the police/military.

It is not bad, but just far different (and larger scope) than originally planned in 1790.

416 SeaMonkey  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:17:25pm

re: #399 brookly red

well if she is then googel freelancers union

Second that -- Freelancers Union is pretty good. I used it for several years. As I understand it they pool self-employed people into groups and then buy coverage for those groups.

417 dugmartsch  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:20:22pm

re: #368 ralphieboy

This thread is skirting a fundamental discussion: the Free market (TM) has its limits, and those include being used to manage and regulate a nation's resources. These include not only natural resources like coal and oil, but other vital resources like clean air and clear water.

And, in the end, the health of America's people is a valuable resource: one on which the nation's well being directly depends. Is it worth leaving this valuable resource entirely in the hands of profit-oriented comapnies?

We choose to leave it to a great estent in their hands, but not entirely. Now there is an attempt being made to remove more of it from their direct control.

My ideal plan would include:

Catostrophic insurance that everyone is required to own. This is not health care coverage. This is if you have a heart attack at 29 you don't get turned away from the hospital insurance. Subsidies for low income, young, and old people.

Government subsidies for the establishment of buffet style GP care. Get as many visits to the GP office as you like, pay a flat monthly fee. These are optional.

HSAs to pay for out of pocket expenses like drugs and such.

The ultimate goal of any health care reform in my opinion is to take as much money out of the system without dramatically reducing the pay of doctors. If the advancement of medicine slows, so be it. When average people cannot afford technologies currently available, what's the point of asking those people to support the development of new technologies the also won't be able to afford?

418 The Shadow Do  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:27:56pm

re: #414 sagehen

I'm in Manhattan... I've been pretty happy with my GHI policy. It doesn't cover office visits or routine care, major illness and injury only, and two doctors (one ortho, one ob/gyn) have told me it's the company least likely to jerk them around on pre-approvals.

Thank you! This place is great.

419 Right Brain  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:31:02pm

re: #142 eclectic infidel

That is an insult to Lewis Black, IMO. Black is an equal opportunity critic without the smarmy connotations that drip from Beck's verbage.

You're probably right about this, Lewis Black is the reasonable center that drew me to the LGF, where do liberal minded people who have seen too much go?

420 reine.de.tout  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:33:52pm

re: #412 austin_blue

What's the difference between an Oath Keeper and a Promise Keeper? Enquiring minds want to know! I'm off upthread.

Toodles!

This from PromiseKeepers website. It appears to be focused on spiritual matters:

Promise Keepers is a Christ-centered organization dedicated to introducing men to Jesus Christ as their Savior and Lord, and then helping them to grow as Christians. This is mainly accomplished through our Seven Promises and our men's conference ministry. Millions of men have participated since 1990 when PK first began. Click here for our history.


The seven promises of PromiseKeepers.

421 Right Brain  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:35:02pm

re: #146 mikhailtheplumber

The difference being, Black makes it very clear he's a comedian. (Some) people take Glenn Beck seriously, however puzzling that might be.
That also makes Beck more dangerous.

I have followed his work for a long long time, and he is more political than ever: he wants national health insurance but everywhere else he views the American government as a bunch of creeps who should leave us alone.

He did say he performed with Amy Grant on stage, and that she was made of cream. Best line of the evening.

422 Unions = Innovation slash slash  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 2:38:03pm

re: #342 TheMatrix31

Huge snowstorm in the Tennessee/New England game. Two weeks away from Halloween.

Must be that darn global warming we've been hearing so much about.

Ok, Last time. Weather is local and is very difficult to predict accurately. Climate is global and very easy to predict accurately for hundreds of years!!
//

423 krypto  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:16:20pm

Interesting the Glenn Beck at least labeled it as a "second opinion" in the video at the link, when he had his hand-picked anti-healthcare medical practitioners dress up in white smocks to pretend to speak for the rest of the medical profession.

The first opinion of doctors can be found in this poll of thousands of randomly selected medical doctors themselves, published in the New England Journal of Medicine. It seems that in every medical specialty and in every part of the country, a majority of doctors say they favor the national healthcare reform proposal, with the public option included.

[Link: content.nejm.org...]

Sorry if this rubs any opponents of healthcare reform the wrong way. It does appear to be an accurate summary of medical doctor opinion on the issue.

424 sagehen  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 3:29:58pm

re: #420 reine.de.tout

The seven promises of PromiseKeepers.


John Ensign is a promisekeeper.
So is Mark Sanford.

They are living testimony to the effectiveness of the program.

425 karmasherabwangchuk  Sun, Oct 18, 2009 4:04:56pm

I'm from the witch-doctor antidefamation league and i've got a PROBLEM w/ this thread.


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