Virginia Challenges EPA Greenhouse Gas Finding

Environment • Views: 2,415

The attorney general of Virginia, Ken Cuccinelli, has filed a petition to block the Envirnomental Protection Agency from declaring greenhouse gases to be a threat to public health: Virginia Files Challenge to E.P.A. Greenhouse Gas Regulation.

Mr. Cuccinelli, seeking to block the decision, also filed a petition with a federal appeals court for a review of the December E.P.A. finding, in which the agency asserted that carbon dioxide and five other greenhouse gases emitted from automobiles, power plants and factories “threaten the public health and welfare of the American people.”

In part, the move was aimed at encouraging Congress to enact legislation to manage the distribution of these gases into the atmosphere — essentially telling lawmakers, as John Broder reported late last year, that if they do not act to control greenhouse gas pollution, the E.P.A. would “use its rule-making power to do so.”

Speaking at a news conference on Wednesday, Mr. Cuccinelli called the E.P.A.’s finding “an incredibly far-reaching decision” arising from what he called uncertain data and a “flawed process.”

“The potential impact of the finding on Virginia agriculture, the energy industry, manufacturing jobs, and in truth the cost of living for every single Virginian,” Mr. Cuccinelli said, “would create a staggering burden.”

Mr. Cuccinelli also added that the E.P.A. should consider new information, including recently publicized e-mail messages from a British climate research institute. Mr. Cuccinelli said the e-mail messages showed scientists using faulty data to support the notion of manmade global warming.

This, of course, was the ultimate aim of whoever planned the Climategate exploit — to position it as a wedge issue to advance their agenda of confusion, and ultimately use it as a weapon to thwart climate change legislation.

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456 comments
1 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:23:01pm
In part, the move was aimed at encouraging Congress to enact legislation to manage the distribution of these gases into the atmosphere — essentially telling lawmakers, as John Broder reported late last year, that if they do not act to control greenhouse gas pollution, the E.P.A. would “use its rule-making power to do so.”

So, is everyone comfortable with the EPA rule making power?

2 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:23:56pm

re: #1 The Shadow Do

The EPA are the only ones stepping up at the moment, sad to say.

3 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:24:14pm

re: #1 The Shadow Do

So, is everyone comfortable with the EPA rule making power?

“Stroke of the pen, law of the land”, as someone once said.

4 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:24:34pm

re: #2 Obdicut

The EPA are the only ones stepping up at the moment, sad to say.

so your ok with that, right?

5 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:24:37pm

re: #1 The Shadow Do

So, is everyone comfortable with the EPA rule making power?

I’m a lot more comfortable with the EPA’s rulings than I am with people who hack into private servers.

6 Blue Fin  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:24:41pm

Of course but you have to admit that the opportunity to slant the topic was presented on a silver platter.

7 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:25:27pm

Not only the Virginia Attorney General, Peabody Energy has filed a petition as well.

Docket No. EPA-HQ=OAR-2009-0171

8 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:26:02pm

re: #7 Bagua

Not only the Virginia Attorney General, Peabody Energy has filed a petition as well.

Docket No. EPA-HQ=OAR-2009-0171

Peabody Energy.

Imagine my shock.

9 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:27:03pm

I am not comfortable with a government agency with rule making power that is not accountable to the voters. I am not comfortable with an unaccountable agency that is putting the strong arm on the elected legislature. But that is just me of course.

10 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:27:34pm

re: #1 The Shadow Do

So, is everyone comfortable with the EPA rule making power?

Not particularly

11 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:27:55pm

re: #8 Charles

Peabody Energy.

Imagine my shock.

Who are they?

12 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:28:34pm

re: #4 The Shadow Do

Yes. I’m supportive of it. Someone needs to do something, and they are.

re: #9 The Shadow Do

You are not comfortable with the executive branch?

Or of any appointed official with power?

13 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:29:32pm

re: #12 Obdicut

Yes. I’m supportive of it. Someone needs to do something, and they are.

re: #9 The Shadow Do

You are not comfortable with the executive branch?

Or of any appointed official with power?

Roll over pretty easy don’t you?

14 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:30:09pm

Oh, I see, a coal energy company.

“We are the largest private sector Coal Company”

Peabody Energy

They certainly have standing.

15 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:31:01pm

re: #13 The Shadow Do

I’m sorry, but a personal attack this early in the conversation is a little baffling.

I think that Co2 needs to be regulated. Congress has failed to do so. The EPA announced that it was going to do so, and is going to do so. I support this.

Can you clarify whether you oppose all appointed officials with power, or just the EPA, or what?

16 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:31:01pm

re: #14 Bagua

Oh, I see, a coal energy company.

“We are the largest private sector Coal Company”

Peabody Energy

They certainly have standing.

Gee. Why would a coal company be against climate change legislation?

That’s a head scratcher, all right.

17 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:31:46pm

re: #11 Bagua

Who are they?

peabodyenergy.com

They are the world’s largest private sector coal company according to their site.

18 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:32:08pm

re: #9 The Shadow Do

I am not comfortable with a government agency with rule making power that is not accountable to the voters. I am not comfortable with an unaccountable agency that is putting the strong arm on the elected legislature. But that is just me of course.

Should government agencies have no power at all? That would make them as useless as the right thinks they are anyway. I don’t remember voting for an FCC commissioner last time I voted - is the FCC putting the “strong-arm on the legislature” by enforcing standards?

And such agencies are accountable to the voters - the legislators that put them in place must go back to the people and ask to be rehired.

19 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:32:41pm

re: #8 Charles

Peabody Energy.

Imagine my shock.

peabodyenergy.com

Peabody Energy (NYSE: BTU) is the world’s largest private-sector coal company, with 2009 sales of 244 million tons and $6 billion in revenues. Its coal products fuel 10 percent of all U.S. electricity generation and 2 percent of worldwide electricity.

I’m sure they are totally disinterested participants in the scientific process of getting to the truth about climate change///

20 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:33:02pm

re: #16 Charles

Gee. Why would a coal company be against climate change legislation?

That’s a head scratcher, all right.

They are protecting their business, no question about it.

21 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:33:43pm

re: #9 The Shadow Do

I am not comfortable with a government agency with rule making power that is not accountable to the voters. I am not comfortable with an unaccountable agency that is putting the strong arm on the elected legislature. But that is just me of course.

Laws are broad policy mandates.

Any agency responsible for monitoring and ensuring the laws are carried out are going to have rule-making authority using the experts they hire. Congress (or a state legislature) simply cannot pass laws with the degree of specificity and expertise that are needed to carry out the mandates. It just can’t.

22 jaunte  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:33:53pm

Daddy won’t you take me back to Muglenberg County
Down by the Green River where paradise lay
I’m sorry my son but you’re too late in askin’
Mr. Peabody’s coal train has hauled it away.
artists.letssingit.com

23 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:34:06pm

re: #5 Charles

Or, reading through Peabody’s legal filing, people who use said stolen information in order to fluff up their PR case. That’s one weak-ass document, too.

24 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:34:21pm

re: #9 The Shadow Do

Maybe the NIH and FCC and FDA and AEC and etc. etc. etc. shouldn’t be allowed to make rules either…

///

25 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:34:31pm

re: #21 reine.de.tout

Laws are broad policy mandates.

Any agency responsible for monitoring and ensuring the laws are carried out are going to have rule-making authority using the experts they hire. Congress (or a state legislature) simply cannot pass laws with the degree of specificity and expertise that are needed to carry out the mandates. It just can’t.

But.. but… GOVERNMENT BAD! /

Agree, btw.

26 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:34:50pm

re: #16 Charles

Gee. Why would a coal company be against climate change legislation?

That’s a head scratcher, all right.

No mystery there.

27 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:35:14pm

Here is the:

Statement of Peabody Energy Regarding Petition for Reconsideration to EPA

* Peabody Energy today filed a detailed petition citing new information as a basis to urge the U.S. EPA to reconsider its claim that greenhouse gases endanger human health.

o Under the Clean Air Act, EPA’s “endangerment finding” could mean regulation of hundreds of thousands and perhaps millions of buildings, farms, businesses and other facilities in the U.S.

* Peabody believes that EPA ignored its obligation to render sound judgment and conduct a rigorous review of science, instead relying almost exclusively on the work of the U.N. Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change as a major basis for its recent endangerment finding.

o The IPCC is an international body whose work is not subject to U.S. data quality standards or consistently peer reviewed.

* Compounding this error, EPA outsourced its scientific obligations to an agency whose work has since been shown to be deeply tainted by flaws, in light of multiple instances of errors, manipulated data and gaps in information that make conclusions unreliable. It is clear that the intent of some was to shape a report to satisfy an agenda that is political and not scientific.

* Given the seriousness of the flaws by the IPCC, relied upon by EPA, the immediacy of draconian regulation is unwarranted. There is no sufficient basis to implement regulations that would harm a fragile economy, further suppress investment and raise energy costs for Americans. The agency needs to step back and begin a thorough review of the real state of scientific understanding of greenhouse gases.

o To the extent that long-term concern regarding greenhouse gas emissions still validly exists, climate change is at worst a long-term challenge - not the immediate crisis that has been conveyed. There is ample time to develop low-emissions technologies such as carbon capture and storage, which global agencies and multiple nations believe are essential for meeting long-term carbon goals.

* This supplements Peabody’s original objections to the finding, which ignores the many societal benefits from coal use in helping people live longer and better, while focusing only on perceived costs. Peabody continues to believe that coal use is essential for U.S. economic growth and the advancement of human development around the world. Coal is the fastest growing fuel in the world and global coal demand is expected to increase more than 1.5 times faster than the combined growth rate of oil, natural gas, nuclear and renewables.

28 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:36:51pm

re: #8 Charles

Peabody Energy.

Imagine my shock.

re: #11 Bagua

Who are they?

They’re the ones who started mountaintop (and town) removal.

Youtube Video

29 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:37:25pm

re: #27 Bagua

I started counting the lies and misrepresentations in that, but I ran out of toes somewhere around bullet 3.

30 Randall Gross  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:37:27pm

Meanwhile 30-50 thousand people worldwide die every year just from mining, processing, and burning coal.

31 [deleted]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:37:46pm
32 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:37:52pm

Heh. Peabody’s lawsuit is so asinine; the IPCC recommendations were used by the EPA. But if they used any other scientific body’s recommendations or analysis of climate change, the policy would be exactly the same. What dishonest jackasses.

Shameless.

33 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:38:28pm

I do think that classifying a naturally occurring gas that we all breathe out ever other second tends to go a bit far.

Where’s my rebreather?

34 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:38:36pm

re: #9 The Shadow Do

I am not comfortable with a government agency with rule making power that is not accountable to the voters. I am not comfortable with an unaccountable agency that is putting the strong arm on the elected legislature. But that is just me of course.

and me…there are others

35 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:39:15pm

re: #18 torrentprime

Should government agencies have no power at all? That would make them as useless as the right thinks they are anyway. I don’t remember voting for an FCC commissioner last time I voted - is the FCC putting the “strong-arm on the legislature” by enforcing standards?

And such agencies are accountable to the voters - the legislators that put them in place must go back to the people and ask to be rehired.

I find it a bit disturbing that folks would just roll with this abeyance to a bureaucracy. The EPA is in charge of taking care of itself, primarily. Noble ends, ignoble means from my perspective. But of course I could be wrong.

36 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:39:34pm

re: #33 Cato the Elder

Classifying it as what? A greenhouse gas? It is.

37 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:40:08pm

re: #29 torrentprime

I started counting the lies and misrepresentations in that, but I ran out of toes somewhere around bullet 3.

Well, they’re a coal company after all… one wouldn’t expect them to be overly enthusiastic about having their business restricted.

38 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:40:17pm

re: #25 torrentprime

But.. but… GOVERNMENT BAD! /

Agree, btw.

I’m no fan of Big Government.

I am a former state employee who worked for an agency with rule-making authority, and I know the mess things would have been had the legislature tried to do what we did without the training and expertise we had in our field.

Also - for any rule or regulation - there is a period for public comment, there are hearings … the process is open, it’s just that people have to actually make themselves aware of what’s going on, may need to READ and perhaps attend and participate in the process. It’s so much easier to just lay it all at the feet of the legislature or Congress while doing nothing actively yourself.

39 LotharBot  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:40:45pm

On the one hand, the Virginia AG’s arguments are total crap.

On the other hand, I’m not real excited about the approach the EPA took in the first place, and I’d like for their ruling to be challenged.

We need good climate change legislation, not poorly thought out EPA rulings. And we need those in the energy industry to give productive input, not lame arguments about stolen e-mails.

A classic case of “a pity they can’t both lose”.

40 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:41:15pm

re: #35 The Shadow Do

Again: Are you opposed to all appointed officials? Even with what Reine said taken into account?

41 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:41:19pm

re: #36 Obdicut

Classifying it as what? A greenhouse gas? It is.

Sorry - brain fart.

“Classifying CO2 as a pollutant.”

I am a carbon-based life form and I pollute with every breath, then.

Say it loud, say it proud: “I am a polluter.”

42 wee fury  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:41:29pm

This term used in the petition draconian regulation is quite … harsh.

43 freetoken  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:41:35pm

re: #33 Cato the Elder

I take it then you are against the city of Baltimore’s and the State of Maryland’s ordinances and laws regulating the other substances coming out of your other orifices?

I mean, it’s a bit extreme to regulate anything that comes out of the human body, isn’t it?

44 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:41:59pm

re: #36 Obdicut

Classifying it as what? A greenhouse gas? It is.

we’ll just have to live with it…sell your Florida property and find some high ground

45 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:42:08pm

re: #35 The Shadow Do

I find it a bit disturbing that folks would just roll with this abeyance to a bureaucracy. The EPA is in charge of taking care of itself, primarily. Noble ends, ignoble means from my perspective. But of course I could be wrong.

“Just roll over”? I love the endless war/revolution/don’t tread on me vocabulary. We’ve “rolled over” for the DEA far, far more than the EPA in the last 20-odd years. I await the teat party street protests for our missing 4th Amendment due to the drug war.

46 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:42:20pm

re: #43 freetoken

I take it then you are against the city of Baltimore’s and the State of Maryland’s ordinances and laws regulating the other substances coming out of your other orifices?

I mean, it’s a bit extreme to regulate anything that comes out of the human body, isn’t it?

I am against laws prohibiting me from pissing on a tree. If my dog can do it, why can’t I?

47 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:42:49pm

re: #45 torrentprime

I await the teat party street protests

Best PIMF messup I’ve ever done.

48 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:42:52pm

re: #38 reine.de.tout

I’m no fan of Big Government.

I am a former state employee who worked for an agency with rule-making authority, and I know the mess things would have been had the legislature tried to do what we did without the training and expertise we had in our field.

Also - for any rule or regulation - there is a period for public comment, there are hearings … the process is open, it’s just that people have to actually make themselves aware of what’s going on, may need to READ and perhaps attend and participate in the process. It’s so much easier to just lay it all at the feet of the legislature or Congress while doing nothing actively yourself.

I will also add that we could change a rule or a regulation much quicker than the legislature could change a law. In other words, we could be more quickly responsive to changing needs.

49 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:43:12pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Again: Are you opposed to all appointed officials? Even with what Reine said taken into account?

the big step…that didn’t take long

50 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:43:21pm

re: #41 Cato the Elder

Breathing is carbon neutral. here’s a rather impolite explanation of that fact.

phaseportrait.blogspot.com

51 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:44:36pm

re: #36 Obdicut

Classifying it as what? A greenhouse gas? It is.

A threat to the public health and welfare of the American people, under section 202(a) of the Clean Air Act.

52 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:44:37pm

Quick in and out, long week, just got in and have to be up at 5:30 to get back in to work for “fucking almost everything is half-priced Sat. sale” which, at a thrift store, is more like a small war.

The idea is to see how many 7 foot over stuffed sofas they can get me to haul out by myself before I collapse… they make book on me.

53 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:44:40pm

re: #41 Cato the Elder

Sorry - brain fart.

“Classifying CO2 as a pollutant.”

I am a carbon-based life form and I pollute with every breath, then.

Say it loud, say it proud: “I am a polluter.”

Naturally produced waste products from naturally occurring organisms do constitute pollution, if their levels become unhealthy. Nothing strange about that.

54 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:45:00pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Again: Are you opposed to all appointed officials? Even with what Reine said taken into account?

It’s a complete end-around of the legislative process. You can’t sensibly argue against that. They didn’t even try to hide it - if Congress won’t do it, we will. Screw separation of powers. You’re ok with it because you like what they are wanting to do. There’s no way you’d be ok with it otherwise.

55 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:45:15pm

I had the task of representing the jewelry manufacturing organization to a host of agencies as an expert. EPA, DTSC, OSHA, LA County Fire, LA Building & Safety. Long story… In brief-EPA was very welcoming to industry input on how to best reduce emissions. They had a budget to help the industry make the changes. Now you can characterize that any way you want.

But my direct working impression is the EPA could do this right.

56 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:45:22pm

re: #53 Jimmah

But in this case, it’s a moot point, because breathing is carbon neutral. It’s a common mistake.

57 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:45:43pm

re: #54 cliffster

You think that regulatory agencies are end-runs around the legislative process?

All of ‘em?

58 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:46:09pm

re: #53 Jimmah

It’s like religion. We all sin.

59 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:46:15pm

the voters have little to say about the climate change issues….it can be argued endlessly but in the end we just have to hope that cool heads prevail and govt does the right thing for all of us poodles that pay them to care for us….haha!…fat chance

60 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:47:40pm

re: #52 Walter L. Newton

Quick in and out, long week, just got in and have to be up at 5:30 to get back in to work for “fucking almost everything is half-priced Sat. sale” which, at a thrift store, is more like a small war.

The idea is to see how many 7 foot over stuffed sofas they can get me to haul out by myself before I collapse… they make book on me.

So what is the over/under Walter?
*wink*

61 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:47:44pm

re: #54 cliffster

It’s an end around ONLY to the extent they are shielded from legislative or executive oversight.

62 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:48:08pm

re: #40 Obdicut

Again: Are you opposed to all appointed officials? Even with what Reine said taken into account?

Of course not. Should these agencies have legislative power or should they work in concert with the elected Congress to promulgate rules? You know what I think, how about you?

Otherwise one simply elects a group of representatives with the authority, and the cover, to appoint a pet team of little bureau dictocrats, no? Disturbing I think.

63 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:48:17pm

re: #53 Jimmah

Naturally produced waste products from naturally occurring organisms do constitute pollution, if their levels become unhealthy. Nothing strange about that.

Well, the level of humans has long since passed the threshold, and the voluntary extinction movement doesn’t seem to be gaining traction.

Time for more draconian measures. Prince Philip agrees.

In the event that I am reincarnated, I would like to return as a deadly virus, in order to contribute something to solve overpopulation.

And he is far, far from alone in that sentiment.

64 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:48:20pm

re: #54 cliffster

It’s a complete end-around of the legislative process. You can’t sensibly argue against that. They didn’t even try to hide it - if Congress won’t do it, we will. Screw separation of powers. You’re ok with it because you like what they are wanting to do. There’s no way you’d be ok with it otherwise.

It’s not an end-run around the legislative process.
Before rules can become effective, there must be a period for public comment.

What that means is that instead of relying on their congress critters, people may have to become informed themselves, informed enough to read the rules and make reasonable rational comment on them, if one were to think the rule was not a good one.

65 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:49:11pm

re: #45 torrentprime

“Just roll over”? I love the endless war/revolution/don’t tread on me vocabulary. We’ve “rolled over” for the DEA far, far more than the EPA in the last 20-odd years. I await the teat party street protests for our missing 4th Amendment due to the drug war.

Uh, Ok then

66 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:50:03pm

re: #48 reine.de.tout

I will also add that we could change a rule or a regulation much quicker than the legislature could change a law. In other words, we could be more quickly responsive to changing needs.

Ain’t always a good thing, Reine. Just sayin’

67 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:50:21pm

re: #62 The Shadow Do

Of course not. Should these agencies have legislative power or should they work in concert with the elected Congress to promulgate rules? You know what I think, how about you?

No, I don’t know what you think. So you’re for completely powerless regulatory bodies that cannot do anything without legislative approval, or what?

Otherwise one simply elects a group of representatives with the authority, and the cover, to appoint a pet team of little bureau dictocrats, no? Disturbing I think.

Okay, so you are disturbed by every appointed official? You don’t think that legislators should be able to appoint bureaucrats?

68 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:50:43pm

re: #59 albusteve

the voters have little to say about the climate change issues…it can be argued endlessly but in the end we just have to hope that cool heads prevail and govt does the right thing for all of us poodles that pay them to care for us…haha!…fat chance

It looks as though it is the courts who will have the say in this matter.

69 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:51:04pm

re: #63 Cato the Elder

Yeah. But breathing is carbon neutral. So don’t worry about it— deep breaths are fine.

70 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:51:41pm

re: #62 The Shadow Do


Otherwise one simply elects a group of representatives with the authority, and the cover, to appoint a pet team of little bureau dictocrats, no? Disturbing I think.

That’s a characterization of a nightmare scenario, not a fact-based analysis of the current situation. I realize some people think that being told they can’t pollute the planet with impunity is akin to a dictatorship, but we regulate health and human safety issues all the time.

71 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:52:10pm

I’m at a loss here.

Agencies having rule-making and regulatory authority is not new.

I don’t understand what seems to be a sudden distaste for how this stuff works.

What am I missing?

Again - concerned about this rule?
Get informed, alone or with a group.
Study the issue, study the proposed rules.
Send in your comments.

72 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:52:16pm

re: #69 Obdicut

Yeah. But breathing is carbon neutral. So don’t worry about it— deep breaths are fine.

Is smoking carbon-neutral? Because the plants in question were recently alive, not dug up out the ground.

73 Charles Johnson  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:52:16pm

I’m also a lot more comfortable with the EPA’s regulations, which are backed up with solid scientific research, than I am with the deceptive tactics of the Heartland Institute and the other denial front groups.

74 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:52:45pm

re: #57 Obdicut

You think that regulatory agencies are end-runs around the legislative process?

All of ‘em?

I’m not going to go into a big discussion about it. Nobody can honestly say that the EPA action is not a gross overstepping of authority. You like it because you want the environment kept clean. I want the environment kept clean. I do not, though, want our governing process trampled.

75 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:53:03pm

re: #69 Obdicut

Yeah. But breathing is carbon neutral. So don’t worry about it— deep breaths are fine.

Not indirectly.

76 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:53:44pm

re: #68 Bagua

It looks as though it is the courts who will have the say in this matter.

ahhh yes…the ultimate authority on every subject…so far they have done a swell job of blocking nuclear technology from benefiting anyone….why would anybody have any confidence in the courts, or congress?….they have a record….there are two groups of people, those who trust the feds and those that don’t

77 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:54:37pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

I’m at a loss here.
Agencies having rule-making and regulatory authority is not new.
I don’t understand what seems to be a sudden distaste for how this stuff works.
What am I missing?

Only hat questioning the motives, competence, and American-ness of every government official and agency came into vogue in Nov 08. Before then, questioning the government meant you were a terrorist-lover. Now, it’s required for tea party membership.

78 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:54:44pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

I’m at a loss here.

Agencies having rule-making and regulatory authority is not new.

I don’t understand what seems to be a sudden distaste for how this stuff works.

What am I missing?

Again - concerned about this rule?
Get informed, alone or with a group.
Study the issue, study the proposed rules.
Send in your comments.

EPA OUT OF LOVE CANAL!
/

79 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:55:53pm

re: #72 Cato the Elder

Tobacco smoke contains methane, which I’m fairly sure wouldn’t otherwise get into the atmosphere, so it’s definitely— co2 aside— a greenhouse gas contributor. I have no clue how big a deal it is, though.

The actual CO2 released by the tobacco itself I don’t think would be a big deal, since it was in the air awhile ago. Unless combustion add more— I don’t know that for certain.

However, for your general health, I recommend breathing to smoking. I made the switch awhile ago and it’s done good things for me.

80 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:55:54pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

I think it’s part of the libertarian fundamentalism which conservatives have adapted. Instead of supporting practical and reasonable regulation many people are adopting a policy of opposing all regulation. Agencies like the FDA, EPA and even the Department of Education have become the enemy.

81 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:56:25pm

re: #75 Bagua

I’d really rather you didn’t address me, Bagua.

82 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:56:32pm

re: #74 cliffster

I’m not going to go into a big discussion about it. Nobody can honestly say that the EPA action is not a gross overstepping of authority. You like it because you want the environment kept clean. I want the environment kept clean. I do not, though, want our governing process trampled.

We’re just asking you to apply your logic to other similar agencies. What powers does the EPA have / has it taken that enable it to overstep its authority? How does this differ from other agencies? How is our (oh, the melodrama) governing process trampled?

83 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:57:00pm

re: #79 Obdicut

Tobacco smoke contains methane, which I’m fairly sure wouldn’t otherwise get into the atmosphere, so it’s definitely— co2 aside— a greenhouse gas contributor. I have no clue how big a deal it is, though.

The actual CO2 released by the tobacco itself I don’t think would be a big deal, since it was in the air awhile ago. Unless combustion add more— I don’t know that for certain.

However, for your general health, I recommend breathing to smoking. I made the switch awhile ago and it’s done good things for me.

I think they should outlaw cigarettes period.

84 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:57:53pm

re: #76 albusteve

ahhh yes…the ultimate authority on every subject.

I can’t stand those people who interpret the law! We should just allow the legislature or executive in every situation to act without checks or balances. /

85 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:57:55pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I think they should outlaw cigarettes period.

Free the weed. Lock up Camel.

86 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:58:28pm

re: #85 cliffster

Free the weed. Lock up Camel.

Fair trade.

87 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:58:37pm

re: #73 Charles

Correct, but that’s not the primary comparison. Or I should say not necessarily. You can have private interests do this (fail, admitted right up front here) or the government. So that means we can leave this to rule makers, legislators or executives.

RDT has a great point there about rule makers being far more flexible than law makers. Getting a ruling out of a rule maker (I can attest to this at Calif DTSC) is easy compared to the effort to get legislative relief i.e. a change in the law the “act of congress”.

88 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:58:47pm

re: #74 cliffster

Accusing me of being dishonest— which I’m not— is not exactly going to convince me you have a good point.

I think the EPA is right to regulate CO2 in the absence of any meaningful legislation passed by congress on it. I also think that Reine is correct in asserting that regulatory agencies can respond more quickly than the legislature, so you would probably actually be unhappier with a congressional law that would be less fluid and less open to adaptive change.

89 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:59:16pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I think they should outlaw cigarettes period.

As long as Cuban Cigars are still legal..
oh wait….

90 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:59:33pm

Kick Ass, America:news.yahoo.com

91 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 7:59:59pm

re: #81 Obdicut

I’d really rather you didn’t address me, Bagua.

I’ll address whomever I please. There is no need for hostility.

92 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:00:37pm

re: #86 torrentprime

Fair trade.

To be sure, I don’t want to lock up Camel. Don’t tell me what to inhale into my lungs. At least it would be more sensible that way, though.

93 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:00:40pm

re: #73 Charles

I’m also a lot more comfortable with the EPA’s regulations, which are backed up with solid scientific research, than I am with the deceptive tactics of the Heartland Institute and the other denial front groups.

Absolutely, and that’s part of the point I tried to make earlier.

The law should broadly state a policy for the nation.

Then the issue is turned over to EXPERTS in that particular field to decide how things will be accomplished and carried out, and the experts (the agency) will issue rules describing the process, restrictions, etc.

This is not new.

94 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:00:45pm

re: #63 Cato the Elder

And he is far, far from alone in that sentiment.

Prince Philip wants to come back as a virus? That bigoted old bugger would have to do some work on his karma to be rewarded with such a reincarnation.

Doug Stanhope has a more moderate solution :

Youtube Video

95 Killgore Trout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:01:03pm

re: #90 prairiefire

Kick Ass, America:[Link: news.yahoo.com…]

Some idiot at CPAC was complaining that Obama is killing too many terrorists.

96 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:01:12pm

re: #9 The Shadow Do

I am not comfortable with a government agency with rule making power that is not accountable to the voters. I am not comfortable with an unaccountable agency that is putting the strong arm on the elected legislature. But that is just me of course.

And behind this shadow Communists!


I think you’re mixing up the EPA of the real world and that of the Simpsons movie, they’re not gonna drop a dome on towns they find too toxic….

97 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:01:38pm

Down with the FAA. Aeroplanes should be allowed to roam free, just as God intended!

98 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:01:39pm

re: #2 Obdicut

The EPA are the only ones stepping up at the moment, sad to say.

Yeah. The head of the UN agency that was supposed to bring to birth a binding treating on the matter in Copenhagen Cancun Singapore Samoa Kenya Kathmandu Buenos Aires Berlin Zanzibar Timbuktu Tobago Helgoland by 2009 2010 2011 2012 2013 2014 2015 2016 2017 2018 2019 is stepping down.

But the delegates and protesters can look forward to many more years of going to interesting, fun places and producing reams of dead-tree documents and hot air.

99 torrentprime  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:02:00pm

re: #92 cliffster

To be sure, I don’t want to lock up Camel. Don’t tell me what to inhale into my lungs. At least it would be more sensible that way, though.

Agree on all counts.

100 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:02:17pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I think they should outlaw cigarettes period.

Is that you, Mike Huckabee?

101 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:02:39pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Accusing me of being dishonest— which I’m not— is not exactly going to convince me you have a good point.

I think the EPA is right to regulate CO2 in the absence of any meaningful legislation passed by congress on it. I also think that Reine is correct in asserting that regulatory agencies can respond more quickly than the legislature, so you would probably actually be unhappier with a congressional law that would be less fluid and less open to adaptive change.

I love how quickly the EPA worked in closing and cleaning up Rocky Flats… just 1991 to 2005, really worked quickly there, didn’t they?

102 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:02:41pm

re: #67 Obdicut

Okay, so you are disturbed by every appointed official? You don’t think that legislators should be able to appoint bureaucrats?

Evidently the EPA has the authority, granted by Congress, to pass whatever rules or regs it deems appropriate. This authority is now being turned back on Congress to pass legislation that it, the bureaocracy, finds presently acceptable - or it will simply take charge of the matter.

This is an awesome degree of authority over which you or I have little to no say. Whatever decisions are made or not made will most certainly impact you, me and everyone.

Trust in that dynamic as you will. I won’t.

I’m telling you that this is a big disconnect.

103 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:02:55pm

re: #71 reine.de.tout

This is kind of an outflow of the whole ‘Czar’ thing, where something that already exists is just being restated in a more dramatic manner, I think.

104 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:03:10pm

re: #28 Cato the Elder

They’re the ones who started mountaintop (and town) removal.


[Video]

Also known (Via Stephen Colbert) as the coolest way to mine, EV-AH!

(As best I can recall)

105 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:04:22pm

re: #80 Killgore Trout

I think it’s part of the libertarian fundamentalism which conservatives have adapted. Instead of supporting practical and reasonable regulation many people are adopting a policy of opposing all regulation. Agencies like the FDA, EPA and even the Department of Education have become the enemy.

No, they are not the enemy. They are what they are. This often has little to do with you or me.

106 wee fury  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:04:22pm

re: #97 Slumbering Behemoth

Down with the FAA. Aeroplanes should be allowed to roam free, just as God intended!

LOL!

107 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:04:56pm

re: #77 torrentprime

Only hat questioning the motives, competence, and American-ness of every government official and agency came into vogue in Nov 08. Before then, questioning the government meant you were a terrorist-lover. Now, it’s required for tea party membership.

heh…not hardly, maybe it just seems like a new fad to you, it isn’t

108 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:05:05pm

re: #102 The Shadow Do

But this is absolutely nothing new. This is the way it has been forever. As Reine said in her #93.

It’s not perfect, definitely, but, as she said, it’s not actually feasible for congress to draft specific laws as quickly as regulatory agencies need them. They have to have authority commensurate with their mission.

109 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:05:06pm

re: #43 freetoken

I take it then you are against the city of Baltimore’s and the State of Maryland’s ordinances and laws regulating the other substances coming out of your other orifices?

I mean, it’s a bit extreme to regulate anything that comes out of the human body, isn’t it?

Don’t crap or piss in my water….

110 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:05:21pm

re: #77 torrentprime

Only hat questioning the motives, competence, and American-ness of every government official and agency came into vogue in Nov 08. Before then, questioning the government meant you were a terrorist-lover. Now, it’s required for tea party membership.

Well.
The Chief Executive (President, Governor, whatever) has the right to appoint people to positions who share his vision. I might not like him or who he appoints, but that is his right.

And I am much more comfortable with rules promulgated by people who are experts and have a deeper understanding of the issues than a Congressman or legislator can ever hope to have, rather than a sickening mess of thousands and thousands of pages of laws.

111 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:05:27pm

Earth First!

Then we mine the other planets.

112 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:06:11pm

re: #96 jamesfirecat

And behind this shadow Communists!


I think you’re mixing up the EPA of the real world and that of the Simpsons movie, they’re not gonna drop a dome on towns they find too toxic…

Are you OK?

113 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:06:21pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Some idiot at CPAC was complaining that Obama is killing too many terrorists.

I know. That’s a great talking point. When do these people ever think things through?

114 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:06:41pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

Yes, they’re chronically underfunded, and their funding took an even bigger beating under Bush.

Obama just increased their budget, though, so they’ll be able to take action quicker— and hopefully prosecute some of the many serial polluters (of really, really, really nasty shit) that we have in this country, that they’ve been unable to do so for lack of wherewithal.

115 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:07:00pm

re: #103 Obdicut

This is America, buddy, not Communist Russia. We don’t do Czars!
/wait, what?

116 freetoken  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:07:01pm

re: #102 The Shadow Do

Evidently the EPA has the authority, granted by Congress, to pass whatever rules or regs it deems appropriate.

No, it doesn’t. However, in this case the Supreme Court ruled that the previous environmental laws passed could be applied.

117 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:07:06pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Some idiot at CPAC was complaining that Obama is killing too many terrorists.

Seriously. Leave some for Sarah, dude.

118 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:07:32pm

re: #102 The Shadow Do

Evidently the EPA has the authority, granted by Congress, to pass whatever rules or regs it deems appropriate. This authority is now being turned back on Congress to pass legislation that it, the bureaocracy, finds presently acceptable - or it will simply take charge of the matter.

This is an awesome degree of authority over which you or I have little to no say. Whatever decisions are made or not made will most certainly impact you, me and everyone.

Trust in that dynamic as you will. I won’t.

I’m telling you that this is a big disconnect.

That is an awesome degree of authority subject to public review and comment. If you care to make comment, it is much easier to have your voice heard during a rule-making process than a legislative process.

119 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:08:33pm

re: #63 Cato the Elder

And he is far, far from alone in that sentiment.

Can I be AIDS?

I don’t wanna be some virus that might get taken down by a vaccine like Polio or Small Pox….

120 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:08:48pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Yes, they’re chronically underfunded, and their funding took an even bigger beating under Bush.

Obama just increased their budget, though, so they’ll be able to take action quicker— and hopefully prosecute some of the many serial polluters (of really, really, really nasty shit) that we have in this country, that they’ve been unable to do so for lack of wherewithal.

Well good. My Dad got cancer from working there, maybe they will speed up the legal process, the process where they get some money to the families of the cancer victims, sometime before the remaining members of the family all die off.

You make me laugh. You really have no concept of reality, do you?

121 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:09:18pm

re: #110 reine.de.tout

Well.
The Chief Executive (President, Governor, whatever) has the right to appoint people to positions who share his vision. I might not like him or who he appoints, but that is his right.

And I am much more comfortable with rules promulgated by people who are experts and have a deeper understanding of the issues than a Congressman or legislator can ever hope to have, rather than a sickening mess of thousands and thousands of pages of laws.

How about Rick Perry appointing his fundy friends to set the educational curricula. Smart, huh?

122 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:09:21pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

I love how quickly the EPA worked in closing and cleaning up Rocky Flats… just 1991 to 2005, really worked quickly there, didn’t they?

you should have paid them a higher wage, maybe gotten a better performance?

123 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:09:59pm

re: #122 albusteve

you should have paid them a higher wage, maybe gotten a better performance?

See my re: #120 Walter L. Newton

124 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:10:27pm

Just in case no one noticed, energy at affordable prices and independence from OPEC oil is in the process of trumping the fuck out of everything else.

125 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:10:30pm

re: #101 Walter L. Newton

I love how quickly the EPA worked in closing and cleaning up Rocky Flats… just 1991 to 2005, really worked quickly there, didn’t they?

Well, the feds are notoriously slow because the bureaucracy is so massive. I have stories that would make you cry - well, not you, but they caused me great grief at times.

But here, in terms of responsiveness, we’re talking about how quickly the rule or regulation can be changed vs. changes to a law.

126 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:10:36pm

re: #120 Walter L. Newton

You make me laugh. You really have no concept of reality, do you?

I’m sorry, Walter, I have no desire to fight tonight. Try someone else.

I am very sorry to hear about your father.

127 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:11:00pm

And in related news:

The DOJ Office of Professional Responsibility found

Under OPR’s analytical framework, an attorney commits intentional professional misconduct when he knowingly violates a clear and unambiguous obligation purposefully or knowingly. We found, based on a preponderance of the evidence, that Yoo knowingly failed to provide a thorough, objective, and candid interpretation of the law … Yoo’s legal analyses justified acts of outright torture under certain circumstances … Yoo committed intentional professional misconduct .

This has been overruled by the David Margolis but that may be overruled by Holder. If that is the case then Yoo goes before the state bars for disbarment proceedings.

128 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:11:31pm

re: #89 HoosierHoops

As long as Cuban Cigars are still legal..
oh wait…

COMMUNIST!

129 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:12:28pm

re: #118 reine.de.tout

Reine, just for you:

I cracked the hell out of my iPhone screen slipping on the still-uncleared Baltimore ice the other day. Miraculously, the touch function still works, but the cracks make it hard to read.

Apple wants $199 to replace the screen.

So I ordered a new 3GS 16G model, which arrives tomorrow. Twice the capacity of the old one.

But only after I found a tech lassie on Craigslist here in Baltimore who will fix the old 3G 8 for $65.

Once I’ve sold it on eBay I should just about break even.

Take that, Apple!

130 Walter L. Newton  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:12:44pm

re: #126 Obdicut

I’m sorry, Walter, I have no desire to fight tonight. Try someone else.

I am very sorry to hear about your father.

You mean you have no desire to look at the problems and address the questions… big difference than fighting. But a common deflection…

131 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:05pm

I’m OK with many things the government does. The EPA has done plenty of stuff right. I enjoy much cleaner air here in L.A. because of the EPA.

I’m still going to pay attention to what the government does, and if they start going overboard I’m going to bitch about it.

132 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:08pm

re: #124 Spare O’Lake

Just in case no one noticed, energy at affordable prices and independence from OPEC oil is in the process of trumping the fuck out of everything else.

On Pandora?

133 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:11pm

re: #124 Spare O’Lake

Just in case no one noticed, energy at affordable prices and independence from OPEC oil is in the process of trumping the fuck out of everything else.

Among the voters, perhaps, but politicians have their own agenda.

134 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:19pm

re: #93 reine.de.tout

All I can say to ya here is AMEN! I would rather deal with OSHA than IRS. DTSC rather than congress. Plenty of agencies have overstepped- I have deep disagreements with certain rulings. I have lobbied for my industry to mixed results. But at least they respond.

re: #125 reine.de.tout

Uh oh we have the uphill run here my friend.

135 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:45pm

re: #130 Walter L. Newton

Really, Walter. I’m not going to fight. Take it to someone else, please.

136 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:13:46pm

re: #112 The Shadow Do

Are you OK?

All depends on your definition of “OK” doesn’t it?

137 Gus  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:14:29pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Some idiot at CPAC was complaining that Obama is killing too many terrorists.

Heard that this afternoon. That came from Viet Dinh.

138 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:14:36pm

re: #117 Cato the Elder

Seriously. Leave some for Sarah, dude.

Yeah she should know a thing or two about hunting from helicopters….

139 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:14:55pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

I hate apple. I buy their shit because it’s awesome. And that pisses me off.

140 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:15:15pm

re: #136 jamesfirecat

All depends on your definition of “OK” doesn’t it?

OK, you’re Ok. LOL

141 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:15:16pm

re: #69 Obdicut

Yeah. But breathing is carbon neutral. So don’t worry about it— deep breaths are fine.

I’m leaning around my chair and exhaling onto the ficus tree, just to be safe.

142 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:15:45pm

re: #121 The Shadow Do

How about Rick Perry appointing his fundy friends to set the educational curricula. Smart, huh?

No. Not smart.
But he is the Governor, and he has the right to do it.

And citizens should become informed and raise hell to make sure the next Governor has a different outlook.

It’s how it works.

And I’m not trying to argue that this EPA rule is just grand; I can’t, I still have a bit of learning to do. I’m just saying the process is what it is and has been, there’s nothing new there, and if you take issue with the rule, become informed and make your opinion known.

143 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:15:49pm
144 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:16:09pm

re: #131 Racer X

I’m OK with many things the government does. The EPA has done plenty of stuff right. I enjoy much cleaner air here in L.A. because of the EPA.

I’m still going to pay attention to what the government does, and if they start going overboard I’m going to bitch about it.

We Salute you noble canary!

145 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:17:07pm

re: #141 The Sanity Inspector

I’m leaning around my chair and exhaling onto the ficus tree, just to be safe.

It will not help, the average American has a ‘Carbon Footprint’ of about 20 tons per year. Being alive is very carbon intensive in the US.

146 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:17:18pm

re: #131 Racer X

I’m OK with many things the government does. The EPA has done plenty of stuff right. I enjoy much cleaner air here in L.A. because of the EPA.

I’m still going to pay attention to what the government does, and if they start going overboard I’m going to bitch about it.

YES!
Exactly.

147 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:17:28pm

re: #115 Slumbering Behemoth

This is America, buddy, not Communist Russia. We don’t do Czars!
/wait, what?

And how, in practice, would the powers of these “czars” be different from congressionally confirmed cabinet secretaries?

148 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:17:41pm

re: #139 cliffster

I hate apple. I buy their shit because it’s awesome. And that pisses me off.

As much as it does when I force you to upding me?

149 simoom  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:17:57pm

So the nominees for the the annual CPAC Ronald Reagan award were Hannah Giles, some guy from Citizens United, the leaders of the Tea Party, as well as some others that escape me. They ended up giving the award to the Tea Party movement as a whole.

150 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:18:03pm

re: #142 reine.de.tout

No. Not smart.
But he is the Governor, and he has the right to do it.

And citizens should become informed and raise hell to make sure the next Governor has a different outlook.

It’s how it works.

And I’m not trying to argue that this EPA rule is just grand; I can’t, I still have a bit of learning to do. I’m just saying the process is what it is and has been, there’s nothing new there, and if you take issue with the rule, become informed and make your opinion known.

Bottom line, I bowed up when I heard the EPA decided to tough trade Congress. Fuck their overbearing selves. I did not elect them. I hope someone in Congress is as ticked as I am and fires someone’s ever lovin EPA butt.

151 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:19:06pm

re: #147 The Sanity Inspector

And how, in practice, would the powers of these “czars” be different from congressionally confirmed cabinet secretaries?

I think you missed the joke.

The czars were not communist, there was sort of a civil war fought over the mater….

152 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:19:29pm

re: #150 The Shadow Do

What ‘tough trade’ are you talking about?

They asked congress to create legislation relevant to CO2. Congress punted. The EPA is going to regulate it, because Congress failed to act.

153 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:19:43pm

re: #114 Obdicut

Yes, they’re chronically underfunded, and their funding took an even bigger beating under Bush.

Obama just increased their budget, though, so they’ll be able to take action quicker— and hopefully prosecute some of the many serial polluters (of really, really, really nasty shit) that we have in this country, that they’ve been unable to do so for lack of wherewithal.

the very sort of bulky, cumbersome, dysfunction some of us allude to….more money just gets swallowed up in the process….your faith in govt is misguided by your politics

154 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:20:40pm

re: #138 jamesfirecat

Yeah she should know a thing or two about hunting from helicopters…

and what do you know?….is it a bad thing?

155 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:20:52pm

re: #153 albusteve

Are you arguing against funding the EPA at all, Steve? I can’t really tell what you’re advocating.

156 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:21:04pm

re: #153 albusteve

Bush bad, Obama good.

157 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:21:28pm

re: #153 albusteve

the very sort of bulky, cumbersome, dysfunction some of us allude to…more money just gets swallowed up in the process…your faith in govt is misguided by your politics


Arm yourself because no one else here will save you
The odds will betray you
And I will replace you …

lyrics007.com

158 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:21:29pm

re: #148 Cato the Elder

As much as it does when I force you to upding me?

Hell no. That would be classified as torture.

159 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:21:46pm

re: #151 jamesfirecat

I think you missed the joke.

The czars were not communist, there was sort of a civil war fought over the mater…

I mean our current administration’s airquote “czars” un-airquote.

160 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:21:48pm

re: #147 The Sanity Inspector

I do believe you missed the intent of my post, entirely. I am currently stuck on sarcasm mode. I am trying to reboot to a more serious mode, but since the reboot method involves consuming certain quantities of alcohol, it may take a while.

161 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:22:33pm

re: #129 Cato the Elder

Reine, just for you:

I cracked the hell out of my iPhone screen slipping on the still-uncleared Baltimore ice the other day. Miraculously, the touch function still works, but the cracks make it hard to read.

Apple wants $199 to replace the screen.

So I ordered a new 3GS 16G model, which arrives tomorrow. Twice the capacity of the old one.

But only after I found a tech lassie on Craigslist here in Baltimore who will fix the old 3G 8 for $65.

Once I’ve sold it on eBay I should just about break even.

Take that, Apple!

Good job!

You know, of course, that I got my 3GS 16G model after I’d had the old model for - oh - gee a month or two, right?

I was an idiot. But the extra phone came in handy when daughter lost hers.

162 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:22:33pm

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth

I do believe you missed the intent of my post, entirely. I am currently stuck on sarcasm mode. I am trying to reboot to a more serious mode, but since the reboot method involves consuming certain quantities of alcohol, it may take a while.

My fault, probably. I’m parachute commenting right now.

163 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:22:38pm

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth

Thank you for reminding me to drink.

164 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:23:31pm

re: #160 Slumbering Behemoth

I do believe you missed the intent of my post, entirely. I am currently stuck on sarcasm mode. I am trying to reboot to a more serious mode, but since the reboot method involves consuming certain quantities of alcohol, it may take a while.

Try ouzo. Mix half-and-half with water. Drink like hell. You’ll get through three glasses before you notice anything.

Then post.

165 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:23:52pm

re: #152 Obdicut

What ‘tough trade’ are you talking about?

They asked congress to create legislation relevant to CO2. Congress punted. The EPA is going to regulate it, because Congress failed to act.

It is easy to agree with the EPA’s mission, and I do. It is way out of line to say do it to our satisfaction or we will usurp your authority. This is a degree or three away from any voice I may want to have in this. And don’t give me the defer to the experts BS. That road leads to who knows where.

166 Gus  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:24:14pm

re: #149 simoom

So the nominees for the the annual CPAC Ronald Reagan award were Hannah Giles, some guy from Citizens United, the leaders of the Tea Party, as well as some others that escape me. They ended up giving the award to the Tea Party movement as a whole.

Pathetic. CPAC has morphed into a wingnut circus. They might as well cut to the chase and next year they can be fully sponsored by Fox News Corporation.

167 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:24:22pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

So much for vows…

168 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:24:48pm

re: #163 Obdicut

Thank you for reminding me to drink.

Rookie.

169 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:24:52pm

re: #167 Bagua

So much for vows…

Hey, I didn’t say I was doing it!

170 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:25:09pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

And feel like cut glass the next day. I guess that’s a green drink since it’s derived from pine trees.

171 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:25:14pm

re: #133 Bagua

Among the voters, perhaps, but politicians have their own agenda.

I still maintain that Obama will never let a momentary political agenda get in the way of his political survival, and he can see the writing on the wall. The US economy must undergo massive structural change in order to provide the jobs and tax base he needs, and cheap domestic energy is the key. He will end up somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun if that’s what it takes.

172 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:25:28pm
173 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:25:41pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

It is easy to agree with the EPA’s mission, and I do. It is way out of line to say do it to our satisfaction or we will usurp your authority. This is a degree or three away from any voice I may want to have in this. And don’t give me the defer to the experts BS. That road leads to who knows where.

A well regulated country that is governed by the best of the best?

Because I can tell you where the road leading from ignoring the experts goes, to a little land called Idiocracy….

174 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:25:45pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

. It is way out of line to say do it to our satisfaction or we will usurp your authority.

They didn’t. They asked them to do it first or they’d use the authority that the Supreme Court, which decides these matters, had said they had. There was no usurping.

. And don’t give me the defer to the experts BS. That road leads to who knows where.

I’m sorry, but do you advocate ignoring the experts, or what? Find out what the experts recommend and do the exact opposite, just to show ‘em?

175 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:26:28pm

re: #173 jamesfirecat

That’s a thread winner right there.

176 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:26:50pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Accusing me of being dishonest— which I’m not— is not exactly going to convince me you have a good point.

I didn’t call you dishonest, and I predict that I won’t ever do so.

177 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:26:59pm

re: #152 Obdicut

What ‘tough trade’ are you talking about?

They asked congress to create legislation relevant to CO2. Congress punted. The EPA is going to regulate it, because Congress failed to act.

yes, more dysfunction…congress doesn’t seem to be able to get anything done

178 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:27:03pm

re: #172 Racer X

The Final Countdown


[Video]

That just makes me miss Arrested Development more….

DAMN YOU FOX!

179 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:27:35pm

re: #165 The Shadow Do

It is easy to agree with the EPA’s mission, and I do. It is way out of line to say do it to our satisfaction or we will usurp your authority. This is a degree or three away from any voice I may want to have in this. And don’t give me the defer to the experts BS. That road leads to who knows where.

If the EPA has the authority to make the rule, they are not usurping anything.

Perhaps they were trying to abdicate their responsibility to asking Congress to take action instead?

180 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:27:55pm

re: #171 Spare O’Lake

I still maintain that Obama will never let a momentary political agenda get in the way of his political survival, and he can see the writing on the wall. The US economy must undergo massive structural change in order to provide the jobs and tax base he needs, and cheap domestic energy is the key. He will end up somewhere to the right of Attilla the Hun if that’s what it takes.

To a point. But it is not only direct actions we are dealing with here. Obama will, on balance, squeeze the domestic energy supply as much as thinks he can get away with, and open the taps only as far as he believes required. The net effect will be a reduction in the domestic supply.

181 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:28:03pm

re: #176 cliffster

You said:

Nobody can honestly say that the EPA action is not a gross overstepping of authority.

And I am saying it is not a gross overstepping of authority at all.

Therefore, you are saying I’m being dishonest. And Reine, as well, for that matter.

182 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:28:06pm

re: #175 Rightwingconspirator

That’s a thread winner right there.

THREAD WINNER, THREAD WINNER!

DING DING DING!

(Shot of three lizards lining up on a slot machine and green tokens marked
“karma” pouring out)

Great, now how I engage multi-ball?

183 prairiefire  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:28:45pm

re: #172 Racer X

That lead guy looks like my brother-in-law.

184 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:29:07pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

I appreciate the recommendation, but I can’t drink that stuff. Alcohol should taste like alcohol, no licorice.

185 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:29:43pm

re: #155 Obdicut

Are you arguing against funding the EPA at all, Steve? I can’t really tell what you’re advocating.

no, just not funding them to make law…like any other govt agency, half of their employees could be dismissed and they would still function…they are an advocacy group

186 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:29:48pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

Mr. Cat, those thread winnings are subject to a %35 withholdings.

187 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:30:04pm

re: #173 jamesfirecat

A well regulated country that is governed by the best of the best?

Because I can tell you where the road leading from ignoring the experts goes, to a little land called Idiocracy…

what the hell do you want, a benevolent dictatorship or a republican democracy?

Trust is something you should never give, at least not lightly.

188 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:30:59pm

re: #184 Slumbering Behemoth

I appreciate the recommendation, but I can’t drink that stuff. Alcohol should taste like alcohol, no licorice.

Black jelly beans, however, should taste like licorice.

Easter’s coming up, and at Easter, I can always find bags of just black jelly beans!
Yum.

189 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:30:59pm

re: #172 Racer X

The Final Countdown


[Video]

Sonuva! I was saving that one to spring on you when you least expected it, and now my plans are ruined.

Curses, foiled again!

190 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:31:04pm

re: #187 The Shadow Do

what the hell do you want, a benevolent dictatorship or a republican democracy?

Trust is something you should never give, at least not lightly.

I’d rather have a benevolent dictatorship of the intelligent than the “democracy” of mob rule.

191 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:31:31pm

re: #164 Cato the Elder

Try ouzo. Mix half-and-half with water. Drink like hell. You’ll get through three glasses before you notice anything.

Then post.

ED!…how you dooin?

192 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:31:39pm

re: #184 Slumbering Behemoth

Try some of this then:

Image: lambanog_orgy.jpg

It definitely doesn’t taste like licorice.

193 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:31:51pm

re: #181 Obdicut

You said:

Nobody can honestly say that the EPA action is not a gross overstepping of authority.

And I am saying it is not a gross overstepping of authority at all.

Therefore, you are saying I’m being dishonest. And Reine, as well, for that matter.

Whatever. Substitute “open-mindedly” for “honestly”. I can’t see any reason for you to go out of your way to think I’ve called you dishonest.

194 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:32:16pm

re: #184 Slumbering Behemoth

I appreciate the recommendation, but I can’t drink that stuff. Alcohol should taste like alcohol, no licorice.

ah who cares….I drink for effect

195 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:32:18pm

re: #174 Obdicut

I’m sorry, but do you advocate ignoring the experts, or what? Find out what the experts recommend and do the exact opposite, just to show ‘em?

Good grief. Go hire your expert and roll with it if that is comfortable to you.

A public debate is needed, not some expert decision making. Who’s expert? Will just any old expert do?

196 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:32:27pm

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I think you probably did not really mean that.

197 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:32:54pm

re: #170 prairiefire

And feel like cut glass the next day. I guess that’s a green drink since it’s derived from pine trees.

You’re thinking of retsina. To which I am so violently allergic you could kill me with it.

198 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:05pm

re: #182 jamesfirecat

Master spy, and win 3 at once.

199 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:09pm

re: #195 The Shadow Do

Good grief. Go hire your expert and roll with it if that is comfortable to you.

A public debate is needed, not some expert decision making. Who’s expert? Will just any old expert do?

And the rule making process includes a period for public comment. And those comments are read and discussed, I know this for absolute certain.

200 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:19pm

re: #193 cliffster

Well, when you say that I can’t be holding my position honestly, it tends to make me think you’re saying I’m being dishonest.

It’s not a big deal. I updinged your previous post because I took it as an explanation that you didn’t mean to so accuse me.

201 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:31pm

re: #187 The Shadow Do

what the hell do you want, a benevolent dictatorship or a republican democracy?

Trust is something you should never give, at least not lightly.

he wants to beat up flag burners, so he obviously does not trust the SC…confusing guy

202 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:32pm

re: #185 albusteve

no, just not funding them to make law…like any other govt agency, half of their employees could be dismissed and they would still function…they are an advocacy group

The effect is worse, they have done some good work in terms or clean air and water. The push back against their defining CO2 as a pollutant, will ultimately weaken their ability to be effective against actual pollutants.

203 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:34pm

re: #199 reine.de.tout

Yes it does.

204 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:33:53pm

re: #173 jamesfirecat

Elitist!

205 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:34:19pm

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I’d rather have a benevolent dictatorship of the intelligent than the “democracy” of mob rule.

well you do…why aren’t you happy?

206 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:34:24pm

re: #195 The Shadow Do

Good grief. Go hire your expert and roll with it if that is comfortable to you.

A public debate is needed, not some expert decision making. Who’s expert? Will just any old expert do?

Did you miss the part where in Texas 30% believe that human lived at the same time as dinosaurs and 31% aren’t sure if they did or not?

Sometimes I think that the low voter turnout is for the better when it comes to American democracy….

207 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:34:31pm

Tequila does not taste like licorice

208 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:34:51pm

re: #195 The Shadow Do

I have no clue what you’re talking about. There is public input, there is public debate and input. If you’re uncomfortable with who is being used as an expert, you can make your voice heard.

Have you been reading Reine’s posts?

209 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:35:05pm

re: #196 reine.de.tout

I think you probably did not really mean that.

I’m saying if I was giving a choice between those two options alone…

I don’t think that is even close to being the case however….

210 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:35:43pm

re: #33 Cato the Elder

I do think that classifying a naturally occurring gas that we all breathe out ever other second tends to go a bit far.

Where’s my rebreather?

Hold on there a moment. If you want a rebreather just try putting a paper/plastic bag over your head for a while and let us know if it’s the excess CO2 or the lack of O2 that does you in first.

If you don’t know the answer, it’s the first and the reason is that the partial pressures prevent you from absorbing O2.

Not that I know what the hell that has to do with the greenhouse gas effect.//

211 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:35:53pm

re: #202 Bagua

The effect is worse, they have done some good work in terms or clean air and water. The push back against their defining CO2 as a pollutant, will ultimately weaken their ability to be effective against actual pollutants.

any rube could have decided CA was choking on pollution…the clean air acts are a good thing but the EPA is over rated

212 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:36:11pm

re: #179 reine.de.tout

If the EPA has the authority to make the rule, they are not usurping anything.

Perhaps they were trying to abdicate their responsibility to asking Congress to take action instead?

Reine, you and I both know that these public reviews in the decision making process produce a product that is in line with the monied interests. There is a need for true public debate and accountability in anything as potentially expensive as CO2 rules/regs.

213 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:36:48pm

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I’d rather have a benevolent dictatorship of the intelligent than the “democracy” of mob rule.

The intellectuals and the young, booted and spurred, feel themselves born to ride us.
— Eric Hoffer

214 Gus  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:37:13pm

The EPA wasn’t the sole agency involved in the Rocky Flats cleanup. That effort also involved the Department of Energy and the Colorado Department of health.

The project also found praise from Republicans:

Rocky Flats cleanup contract called model for future federal efforts

“This contract was clearly the flagship in being innovative in this approach,” Assistant Energy Secretary [under President Bush] James Rispoli said at the Senate Energy and Commerce Committee hearing.

“Few believed that they would be alive when the site was finally cleaned up,” said Sen. Wayne Allard, R-Colo., speaking as a witness at the hearing.

Rocky Flats Cleanup Is Declared Complete

Senator Wayne Allard, Republican of Colorado, praised the project, calling Rocky Flats “the best example of a nuclear cleanup success story ever.”

Representative Bob Beauprez, Republican of Colorado, said the project set a standard for cleaning up radioactive sites.

“As a result of everyone’s hard work, Rocky Flats will now become a jewel of open space to be enjoyed in perpetuity,” Mr. Beauprez said in a statement.

215 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:37:19pm
216 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:37:23pm

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I’d rather have a benevolent dictatorship of the intelligent than the “democracy” of mob rule.

good luck with that my young friend.

217 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:37:55pm

re: #213 The Sanity Inspector

The intellectuals and the young, booted and spurred, feel themselves born to ride us.
— Eric Hoffer

Yes, that’s why in their supreme intelligence the united States Government created the internet, knowing that in turn this would keep kids like me too busy to do anything other than post how we feel on it….

218 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:38:12pm

re: #212 The Shadow Do

What form would this public debate take? And do you really feel that the EPA is more influenced by ‘moneyed interests’ than Congress is?

219 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:38:13pm

re: #161 reine.de.tout

Good job!

You know, of course, that I got my 3GS 16G model after I’d had the old model for - oh - gee a month or two, right?

I was an idiot. But the extra phone came in handy when daughter lost hers.

That’s why the post was to you, Queenie. I’ve been jealous ever since you told me that. Thought you’d appreciate the stick-it-to-Apple part.

Does the easy-wipe screen work as well as they claim? And how about the compass? And voice-control?

I am going to be so geeked out tomorrow I’ll be lucky to get to confession.

220 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:39:04pm

re: #191 albusteve

ED!…how you dooin?

Keepin’ a weather eye out, matey.

221 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:39:08pm

re: #211 albusteve

any rube could have decided CA was choking on pollution…the clean air acts are a good thing but the EPA is over rated

Over rated indeed, and now overstepping their authority by conflating pollutants with ‘Greenhouse gasses’. What we are witnessing is the early stages of a busted flush.

222 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:39:16pm

re: #188 reine.de.tout

Easter’s coming up, and at Easter, I can always find bags of just black jelly beans!

There’s a reason for that, you know.

Yum.

No, that’s not it.

223 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:39:35pm

re: #206 jamesfirecat

Did you miss the part where in Texas 30% believe that human lived at the same time as dinosaurs and 31% aren’t sure if they did or not?

Sometimes I think that the low voter turnout is for the better when it comes to American democracy…

OK, bright guy. You get to be dictator for the day.

224 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:40:14pm

re: #223 The Shadow Do

OK, bright guy. You get to be dictator for the day.

Nope. I’m just smart enough to realize that I’m too stupid to be in charge.

225 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:40:29pm

re: #197 Cato the Elder

You’re thinking of retsina. To which I am so violently allergic you could kill me with it.

You’ve given your real name, your location, and a deadly allergy here. Hope you don’t have some kind of death wish going. //

226 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:40:32pm

re: #223 The Shadow Do

OK, bright guy. You get to be dictator for the day.


Oh god no, what have you done!

227 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:41:36pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

Cato, the only way you’re sticking it to Apple is jail breaking.

228 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:41:54pm

re: #217 jamesfirecat

Yes, that’s why in their supreme intelligence the united States Government created the internet, knowing that in turn this would keep kids like me too busy to do anything other than post how we feel on it…

Actually I think the internet has caused an explosion of people informing themselves. Unfortunately for the guvmint, they designed it so it can’t be shut down. (Or do you really think we’d be having these discussions if they could?)

229 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:42:06pm
230 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:42:23pm

re: #217 jamesfirecat

Yes, that’s why in their supreme intelligence the united States Government created the internet, knowing that in turn this would keep kids like me too busy to do anything other than post how we feel on it…

Actually, what they didn’t count on was that you would; whereas otherwise you wouldn’t have wanted to go to all the trouble of hand writing letters to your local newspaper and spending so much money on postage./

and a free / for yours.

231 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:42:25pm

re: #212 The Shadow Do

Reine, you and I both know that these public reviews in the decision making process produce a product that is in line with the monied interests. There is a need for true public debate and accountability in anything as potentially expensive as CO2 rules/regs.

No, I don’t know that, not one bit.

I was deeply involved in the rule-making process here, for the agency I worked for.

The comments we received, and heard in hearings, were taken very seriously. Well, the ones that were rationally presented, not the ones that were strictly emotional (but it’s not faaaaaair! etc).

These things were taken very seriously. And there were plenty of times we would hold something for months, with endless meetings and discussions about the issues involved - and other times we would simply withdraw our proposal altogether.

Don’t think that you have no voice.

232 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:42:52pm

re: #224 jamesfirecat

Nope. I’m just smart enough to realize that I’m too stupid to be in charge.

Let’s remember this thread when HoosierHoops starts posting from a real benevolent dictatorship, Singapore.

233 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:42:56pm

re: #218 Obdicut

What form would this public debate take? And do you really feel that the EPA is more influenced by ‘moneyed interests’ than Congress is?

I can vote for my Congressman. The debate should be right there, halls of Congress. On CSpan. Come talk to me Mr/MS Congressperson. Do not pass the buck to some nameless guy in the EPA.

234 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:43:32pm

re: #223 The Shadow Do

OK, bright guy. You get to be dictator for the day.

That’s an old tradition going back to way before the Babylonians. Ever read “The Golden Bough”?

Then, James, unfortunately, we have to kill you. It’s in the sacred writings.

235 Spare O'Lake  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:43:46pm

re: #190 jamesfirecat

I’d rather have a benevolent dictatorship of the intelligent than the “democracy” of mob rule.

Is it cool to do the fascist punk thing just to aggravate the old folks?

236 Political Atheist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:44:43pm

re: #231 reine.de.tout

You and I had the same experience.

237 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:44:45pm

re: #230 Naso Tang

Actually, what they didn’t count on was that you would; whereas otherwise you wouldn’t have wanted to go to all the trouble of hand writing letters to your local newspaper and spending so much money on postage./

and a free / for yours.

As my father says when working his digital camera “Electrons are free.”

He also says that it as lot more like using a shotgun when a film camera is a rifle, you need to carefully line up each and every shot, with a digital camera you want to blast your shots all over the place and with any luck you’ll come away with two or three good ones…

238 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:45:10pm

re: #225 The Sanity Inspector

Don’t worry, I never accept drinks from strangers.

239 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:45:12pm

re: #233 The Shadow Do

Well, they did pass the buck. And the Supreme Court has said the EPA has the authority to do this. That’s why they’re doing it.

Please read Reine’s comments. Since she has first-hand experience, I think you’d find yourself reassured by what she’s related.

240 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:45:23pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

That’s why the post was to you, Queenie. I’ve been jealous ever since you told me that. Thought you’d appreciate the stick-it-to-Apple part.

Does the easy-wipe screen work as well as they claim? And how about the compass? And voice-control?

I am going to be so geeked out tomorrow I’ll be lucky to get to confession.

If you really what to stick it to Apple, bring your iPhone into a Sprint store and we’ll buy it from you. Get one of our phones, you’ll save money on your plan.

/employer promo

241 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:46:16pm

re: #232 The Sanity Inspector

Let’s remember this thread when HoosierHoops starts posting from a real benevolent dictatorship, Singapore.

Benevolent? You go to jail for dropping gum on the sidewalk.

Come to think of it, not a bad idea; but it’s not AMERICAN!

242 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:46:23pm

re: #231 reine.de.tout

No, I don’t know that, not one bit.

I was deeply involved in the rule-making process here, for the agency I worked for.

The comments we received, and heard in hearings, were taken very seriously. Well, the ones that were rationally presented, not the ones that were strictly emotional (but it’s not faaair! etc).

These things were taken very seriously. And there were plenty of times we would hold something for months, with endless meetings and discussions about the issues involved - and other times we would simply withdraw our proposal altogether.

Don’t think that you have no voice.

I too have been inside the sausage making process. My experience was a tad different. Good old boy is not necessarily a backroom thing anymore. It is even less overt but nonetheless there.

243 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:47:15pm
244 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:47:22pm

re: #234 Cato the Elder

That’s an old tradition going back to way before the Babylonians. Ever read “The Golden Bough”?

Then, James, unfortunately, we have to kill you. It’s in the sacred writings.

LOL

245 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:47:23pm

re: #233 The Shadow Do

I can vote for my Congressman. The debate should be right there, halls of Congress. On CSpan. Come talk to me Mr/MS Congressperson. Do not pass the buck to some nameless guy in the EPA.

congress is too frightened to handle this issue…they are drifting away from BO as his popularity sinks…with 10% unemployment, those boobs don’t want anything to do with climate change, cap and trade…any of that stuff…the whole putrid thing is collapsing in BOs lap…obviously that’s why he’s punted it to the EPA…they are probably stunned….govt is a mess

246 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:48:08pm

re: #234 Cato the Elder

That’s an old tradition going back to way before the Babylonians. Ever read “The Golden Bough”?

Then, James, unfortunately, we have to kill you. It’s in the sacred writings.

My fellow Americans, PICK SOMEONE ELSE!

247 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:48:10pm

re: #238 Cato the Elder

Don’t worry, I never accept drinks from strangers.

Rookie.

248 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:49:18pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

Pick me! Pick me! Just tell me where Pamela Anderson is and let’s get this thing over with.

249 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:49:26pm

Fog decline threatens US redwoods

Scientists in California say a drop in coastal fog could threaten the state’s famed giant redwood trees.

Their study, published in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, says such fog has decreased markedly over the past 100 years.

The weather records analysed come from the US National Climate Data Centre.

“Fog prevents water loss from redwoods in summer and is really important for the tree and the forest,” said research co-author Professor Todd Dawson.

news.bbc.co.uk

250 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:49:29pm

re: #246 jamesfirecat

My fellow Americans, PICK SOMEONE ELSE!

My fellow Americans,
*Force Persuade*
vote for me!

251 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:49:51pm

re: #237 jamesfirecat

As my father says when working his digital camera “Electrons are free.”

He also says that it as lot more like using a shotgun when a film camera is a rifle, you need to carefully line up each and every shot, with a digital camera you want to blast your shots all over the place and with any luck you’ll come away with two or three good ones…

That has truth, although I would have said it shorter; but my point is that in my youth it took work for people with an agenda to get together and form a “party”. Now all the assholes of the world can unite and all they need is a sixpack and a PC.

252 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:49:53pm

re: #192 Obdicut

Blech! I prefer beer flavored alcohol, and bourbon or tequila flavored.

re: #194 albusteve

So do I, but even I have my limits. Now, if they made a Tri-Tip flavored booze, you might have to check me into the Betty Ford Clinic.

253 Uncle Obdicut  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:50:49pm

re: #252 Slumbering Behemoth

Oh, I don’t actually like the stuff. But it’s definitely not licorice flavored.

I’m having a Stella Artois now.

254 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:51:53pm

Oh dear, Bill O’Reilly had Suzanne Somers on tonight about a health issue. I’m going to watch this segment but it’s sure to be painful.

255 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:52:32pm

re: #253 Obdicut

Oh, I don’t actually like the stuff. But it’s definitely not licorice flavored.

I’m having a Stella Artois now.

My first training beer as I recall. Never looked back.

256 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:53:07pm

My wife is out tonight - mom’s night out. Lotta ladies in that group. Just saw one of them post on facebook, via iphone - “Word of the night - dong.” What me, worry?

257 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:53:11pm

re: #253 Obdicut

Oh, I don’t actually like the stuff. But it’s definitely not licorice flavored.

I’m having a Stella Artois now.

Stella is my current favourite booze.

258 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:53:31pm

re: #242 The Shadow Do

I too have been inside the sausage making process. My experience was a tad different. Good old boy is not necessarily a backroom thing anymore. It is even less overt but nonetheless there.

Well, then - sorry you had such a different experience.
My experience was very challenging and interesting, and I enjoyed every minute of it. We were serious about doing things as right as we could.

259 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:53:36pm
260 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:54:01pm

re: #256 cliffster

My wife is out tonight - mom’s night out. Lotta ladies in that group. Just saw one of them post on facebook, via iphone - “Word of the night - dong.” What me, worry?

Oh, to be a fly on the wall …

261 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:54:48pm

re: #256 cliffster

My wife is out tonight - mom’s night out. Lotta ladies in that group. Just saw one of them post on facebook, via iphone - “Word of the night - dong.” What me, worry?

Wow, you follow your wife’s friends on facebook? ‘tis a dangerous world indeed.

262 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:55:22pm

re: #231 reine.de.tout

The comments we received, and heard in hearings, were taken very seriously. Well, the ones that were rationally presented, not the ones that were strictly emotional (but it’s not faaair! etc).

You mean you didn’t let Deb Frisch run the show?

Youtube Video

263 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:55:26pm

re: #261 Naso Tang

Wow, you follow your wife’s friends on facebook? ‘tis a dangerous world indeed.

I was wondering…I just cannot relate

264 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:56:28pm

re: #249 Jimmah

Fog decline threatens US redwoods

[Link: news.bbc.co.uk…]

There is only Redwood Tree left in Napa Valley…It’s up drive up in the Hills and only the locals know about it.. The reason it wasn’t cut down a hundred years ago is because it is a twisted warped tree..
The branches are bigger than oak trees and they are twisted around.
It is the most beautiful tree in the world..Like something out of a fairy tale.. When you finally hike to the tree your very first words are ’ oh Shit’

265 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:56:29pm

re: #260 reine.de.tout

Oh, to be a fly on the wall …

Oh, to be a fly on the wall, with a baseball bat…

266 simoom  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:56:54pm

re: #95 Killgore Trout

Some idiot at CPAC was complaining that Obama is killing too many terrorists.

It’s another example of “go after (and undermine) their strengths”. I think this particular line of attack originated with this article in Foreign Policy by former Bush speechwriter Marc Thiessen:

Dead Terrorists Tell No Tales: Is Barack Obama killing too many bad guys before the U.S. can interrogate them?

Since then a number of other publications, blogs and talking heads have taken that ball and run with it.

267 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:57:00pm

re: #257 Jimmah

Stella is my current favourite booze.

A little dab’ll do ya

268 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:57:04pm

re: #236 Rightwingconspirator

You and I had the same experience.

I’m really a bit stunned about and at a loss to understand how people are thinking that the EPA rule-making process is an end-run around democracy.

There is always a period for public participation, if folks want to take the time and energy to do it.

269 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:57:36pm

Casey Jones
MP3 Audio
-Furry Lewis

270 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:58:27pm

re: #245 albusteve

congress is too frightened to handle this issue…they are drifting away from BO as his popularity sinks…with 10% unemployment, those boobs don’t want anything to do with climate change, cap and trade…any of that stuff…the whole putrid thing is collapsing in BOs lap…obviously that’s why he’s punted it to the EPA…they are probably stunned…govt is a mess

And that, my friend, is the true beauty of our political system. You better damn well have a majority in agreement before you fuck with stuff. I think John Adams said that…

271 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:59:01pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

There is only Redwood Tree left in Napa Valley…It’s up drive up in the Hills and only the locals know about it.. The reason it wasn’t cut down a hundred years ago is because it is a twisted warped tree..
The branches are bigger than oak trees and they are twisted around.
It is the most beautiful tree in the world..Like something out of a fairy tale.. When you finally hike to the tree your very first words are ’ oh Shit’

I’d like to see a Redwood forest sometime - pretty awesome. Definitely on my list next time I’m out west. (To think I wasted time on a day trip to Temecula last time…ugh)

272 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:59:21pm

re: #266 simoom

Killing bad guys is, well, bad now???
Ridiculous.

273 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:59:23pm

re: #258 reine.de.tout

Well, then - sorry you had such a different experience.
My experience was very challenging and interesting, and I enjoyed every minute of it. We were serious about doing things as right as we could.

Of that I have no doubt. I also know that deals are made that never see the light of day.

274 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 8:59:26pm

re: #270 The Shadow Do

And that, my friend, is the true beauty of our political system. You better damn well have a majority in agreement before you fuck with stuff. I think John Adams said that…

I somehow doubt he used the word “F***” when he said it….

275 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:01:27pm

re: #266 simoom

It’s another example of “go after (and undermine) their strengths”. I think this particular line of attack originated with this article in Foreign Policy by former Bush speechwriter Marc Thiessen:

Dead Terrorists Tell No Tales: Is Barack Obama killing too many bad guys before the U.S. can interrogate them?

Since then a number of other publications, blogs and talking heads have taken that ball and run with it.

Whatever Obama does, they’re against it. So much for the party of fair play.

[sobs]

276 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:01:55pm

re: #264 HoosierHoops

There is only Redwood Tree left in Napa Valley…It’s up drive up in the Hills and only the locals know about it.. The reason it wasn’t cut down a hundred years ago is because it is a twisted warped tree..
The branches are bigger than oak trees and they are twisted around.
It is the most beautiful tree in the world..Like something out of a fairy tale.. When you finally hike to the tree your very first words are ’ oh Shit’

the most beautiful tree I ever saw was the enormous English oak in my mom’s front yard…close runner up is a virgin Tulip right behind D Boones grave in Frankfort KY….there is a picture of it looking straight up the trunk well over a hundred feet, right over there on my wall ———>

277 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:02:04pm

re: #274 jamesfirecat

I somehow doubt he used the word “F***” when he said it…

OK, I may be a little vague with the exact quote…

278 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:02:32pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

Whatever Obama does, they’re against it. So much for the party of fair play.

[sobs]

I’m kind of surprised at how anti-war CPAC sounded…
:/

279 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:02:47pm

re: #268 reine.de.tout

I’m really a bit stunned about and at a loss to understand how people are thinking that the EPA rule-making process is an end-run around democracy.

There is always a period for public participation, if folks want to take the time and energy to do it.

Do you not believe that many people think science is an end run around democracy? Say up to half of those in Texas, for example?

280 jaunte  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:02:59pm

re: #271 Jimmah

Muir Woods is a pretty easy day trip out of San Francisco.

281 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:03:06pm

Off topic, local coverage on teh crazee:

statesman.com

This was a guy who was a local musician, a software dude, and had a history with the IRS going back to the early-mid 80’s, from everything I can glean. The whole episode was based on a judgement against him of 12 large or so.

twelve grand reults in an attack to kill as many people as possible.

Oh, dear.

Here’s how lucky the people were in that building:

The prop spinner hit the slab between the first and second floors. How do we know this? The 235 HP Lycoming engine was bounced back onto the access road. That’s the big black thing in the lane nearest to the building about 40% from the left edge.

Image: austin_building.jpg

Damn lucky.

282 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:03:11pm

re: #278 Varek Raith

I’m kind of surprised at how anti-war CPAC sounded…
:/

Ron Paul!

283 FullRoller  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:04:03pm

The biggest reason that Congress would not do anything about it is because they know full well that the people would not put up with it. So, shove it off to the EPA since they are not accountable to the voters. The Congress-critters can then avoid blame for this bit of stupidity.

284 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:04:23pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

Whatever Obama does, they’re against it. So much for the party of fair play.

[sobs]

Fortunately none of that behaviour went on during the Bush Presidency.

285 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:04:25pm

re: #275 Dark_Falcon

Whatever Obama does, they’re against it. So much for the party of fair play.

[sobs]

Its funny how Liberals are always accused of being Communists, because it seem to me the the Republicans have been taking their marching orders for a certain Marx recently….

Youtube Video

286 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:04:51pm

re: #238 Cato the Elder

Don’t worry, I never accept drinks from strangers.

“It will happen this way. You may be walking. Maybe the first sunny day of the spring. And a car will slow beside you, and a door will open, and someone you know, maybe even trust, will get out of the car. And he will smile, a becoming smile. But he will leave open the door of the car and offer to give you a lift. […] [Joubert pauses, then holds out a gun to Turner]
Joubert: For that day.”

/// And when I start riffing on 3 Days of the Condor, it’s time to turn in. ‘Night, all.

287 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:05:15pm

re: #283 FullRoller

The biggest reason that Congress would not do anything about it is because they know full well that the people would not put up with it. So, shove it off to the EPA since they are not accountable to the voters. The Congress-critters can then avoid blame for this bit of stupidity.

And there you have it, folks. But they are experts, no?

288 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:05:43pm

re: #219 Cato the Elder

That’s why the post was to you, Queenie. I’ve been jealous ever since you told me that. Thought you’d appreciate the stick-it-to-Apple part.

Does the easy-wipe screen work as well as they claim? And how about the compass? And voice-control?

I am going to be so geeked out tomorrow I’ll be lucky to get to confession.

I haven’t used the compass. But it looks neat.

The easy-wipe screen - you’re talking about shake it to delete what you’ve written? Works very very well.

And I haven’t used the voice control, because my car has the wonderful Ford SYNC in it and it does everything.

289 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:06:53pm

re: #283 FullRoller

Heh, reading your past comments on AGW….
;)

290 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:06:59pm

re: #271 Jimmah

I’d like to see a Redwood forest sometime - pretty awesome. Definitely on my list next time I’m out west. (To think I wasted time on a day trip to Temecula last time…ugh)

You can’t imagine the awe of standing next to a Redwood..
The one in Napa that got spared is all twisted around like a fairy tale tree…
Just beautiful…There are branches on that tree bigger than full grown oak trees.. Just amazing Jimmah..

291 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:07:09pm

re: #217 jamesfirecat

Yes, that’s why in their supreme intelligence the united States Government created the internet, knowing that in turn this would keep kids like me too busy to do anything other than post how we feel on it…

Blame Al Gore!

292 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:07:18pm

re: #284 Bagua

Fortunately none of that behaviour went on during the Bush Presidency.

Really?

Really?!?!?!?

Why do you think we went into Iraq? This selective memory is…..odd.

293 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:07:46pm

Gloria Allred on Fox - she’s lawyering for one of Tiger’s mistresses. She’s castigating Tiger because he lied to her client. “He told her that she was the only one in his life besides his wife”. w t f I’m sleeping with a married man and I’m pissed that he’s cheating on.. me? Me and the wife? How fucking stupid is that.

294 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:08:12pm

re: #284 Bagua

Fortunately none of that behaviour went on during the Bush Presidency.


It just cracks me up that after all the flag waving National Security kick-ass rhetoric, the instant a Democrat is at the help, it all just flutters out of their heads. Like butterflies! flit flit flit. A veneer as thin as a sheet of paper.

295 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:08:17pm

re: #283 FullRoller

The biggest reason that Congress would not do anything about it is because they know full well that the people would not put up with it. So, shove it off to the EPA since they are not accountable to the voters. The Congress-critters can then avoid blame for this bit of stupidity.

OK, this is just not right.

There is a period for public comment before rules are made effective.
The public can comment all they want; rational comments will be seriously considered.

The “accountability” is in your hands. Become informed. Alone or with a group, go through the proposed rules. Submit your comments.

296 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:08:38pm

re: #288 reine.de.tout

I haven’t used the compass. But it looks neat.

The easy-wipe screen - you’re talking about shake it to delete what you’ve written? Works very very well.

And I haven’t used the voice control, because my car has the wonderful Ford SYNC in it and it does everything.

The new screen is supposed to have some film on it that makes cleaning it as easy as rubbing it on your “Glenn Beck Is A Crybaby” T-shirt.

Just wondering about that.

297 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:09:16pm

re: #293 cliffster

Gloria Allred on Fox - she’s lawyering for one of Tiger’s mistresses. She’s castigating Tiger because he lied to her client. “He told her that she was the only one in his life besides his wife”. w t f I’m sleeping with a married man and I’m pissed that he’s cheating on.. me? Me and the wife? How fucking stupid is that.

Beautiful, just beautiful

298 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:09:19pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

You can’t imagine the awe of standing next to a Redwood..
The one in Napa that got spared is all twisted around like a fairy tale tree…
Just beautiful…There are branches on that tree bigger than full grown oak trees.. Just amazing Jimmah..

Redwoods are mindboggling. From another planet entirely

299 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:09:34pm

re: #283 FullRoller

The biggest reason that Congress would not do anything about it is because they know full well that the people would not put up with it. So, shove it off to the EPA since they are not accountable to the voters. The Congress-critters can then avoid blame for this bit of stupidity.

While I allow you your point, that the people won’t permit AGW-preventing legislation is more of testament to the power of the Denial Industry.

300 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:09:38pm

re: #271 Jimmah

I’d like to see a Redwood forest sometime - pretty awesome. Definitely on my list next time I’m out west. (To think I wasted time on a day trip to Temecula last time…ugh)

google.com

301 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:09:44pm

re: #293 cliffster

Gloria Allred on Fox - she’s lawyering for one of Tiger’s mistresses. She’s castigating Tiger because he lied to her client. “He told her that she was the only one in his life besides his wife”. w t f I’m sleeping with a married man and I’m pissed that he’s cheating on.. me? Me and the wife? How fucking stupid is that.

Really, really stupid.
Really.
One lady I know was cheating on her husband with a man who was also married.

The two of them eventually got married - and then she was crushed when he cheated on her.

What did she expect?

302 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:10:01pm

re: #291 The Sanity Inspector

Blame Al Gore!

No, I blame the Russkies, if they hadn’t threatened to nuke us, we wouldn’t have needed to set him to work inventing a form of communication that couldn’t be taken down easily since it lacked a central hub.

303 The Sanity Inspector  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:10:17pm

re: #281 austin_blue

Glad to see you’re safe!

304 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:10:21pm

re: #253 Obdicut

Oh, I don’t actually like the stuff. But it’s definitely not licorice flavored.

I’m having a Stella Artois now.

Stella’s good stuff, I just don’t drink many pilseners.

305 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:10:24pm

re: #292 austin_blue

Really?

Really?!?!?!?

Why do you think we went into Iraq? This selective memory is…odd.

What are you talking about?

My point is that the Dems found fault with everything Bush did the same way the Repubs are now finding fault with everything Obama does.

306 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:10:49pm

re: #298 cliffster

Redwoods are mindboggling. From another planet entirely

uh oh

307 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:12pm

re: #285 jamesfirecat

Its funny how Liberals are always accused of being Communists, because it seem to me the the Republicans have been taking their marching orders for a certain Marx recently…


[Video]

Down with this sort of thing!

Youtube Video

308 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:20pm

re: #293 cliffster

“He told her that she was the only one in his life besides his wife”.

If I were one of Tiger’s kids, I don’t know whether I’d be pissed off or relieved.

I guess it depends on how Tiger swings.

309 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:49pm

re: #296 Cato the Elder

The new screen is supposed to have some film on it that makes cleaning it as easy as rubbing it on your “Glenn Beck Is A Crybaby” T-shirt.

Just wondering about that.

Ah.
I have a screen protector that was a bit pricey but it has no bubbles in it and it’s supposed to be a “lifetime” screen protector. So my screen is covered.

Phone is in my purse with pens and pencils and make-up - thought it best to have a screen protector.

310 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:52pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

While I allow you your point, that the people won’t permit AGW-preventing legislation is more of testament to the power of the Denial Industry.

Then win the debate. This is who we are.

311 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:54pm

re: #305 Bagua

What are you talking about?

My point is that the Dems found fault with everything Bush did the same way the Repubs are now finding fault with everything Obama does.

Are you quoting Obama again?

312 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:11:56pm

re: #294 WindUpBird

It just cracks me up that after all the flag waving National Security kick-ass rhetoric, the instant a Democrat is at the help, it all just flutters out of their heads. Like butterflies! flit flit flit. A veneer as thin as a sheet of paper.

The moment the commander in chief changes some war supporters become pacifists eh? Partisan bias is a funny thing.

313 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:12:04pm

re: #268 reine.de.tout

I’m really a bit stunned about and at a loss to understand how people are thinking that the EPA rule-making process is an end-run around democracy.

There is always a period for public participation, if folks want to take the time and energy to do it.

People are dumb and want to complain. Public participation takes effort and research. Complaining, not so much. :D

314 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:12:51pm

re: #305 Bagua

What are you talking about?

My point is that the Dems found fault with everything Bush did the same way the Repubs are now finding fault with everything Obama does.

To be fair we often didn’t have far to go what with mission accomplished this and misunderestimate that….

315 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:13:22pm

re: #311 Naso Tang

Are you quoting Obama again?

He keeps stealing my best lines.

316 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:13:47pm

re: #310 The Shadow Do

Heh, sorry but, the debate is heavily in favor of AGW.

317 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:13:54pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

People are dumb and want to complain. Public participation takes effort and research. Complaining, not so much. :D

Which is why the internet is such a wonderful thing./

318 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:14:32pm

re: #310 The Shadow Do

Then win the debate. This is who we are.

You can’t win a debate with people who don’t argue in good faith, they don’t come to argue, they come to deceive…

319 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:14:39pm

re: #305 Bagua

What are you talking about?

My point is that the Dems found fault with everything Bush did the same way the Repubs are now finding fault with everything Obama does.

Politics is politics. But it is pretty damn surprising that the Republicans, who are supposed to just OWN national security as an issue politically, are just abandoning it and running full tilt the other way. He’s killing TOO MANY terrorists? Wut? :D

it’d be like if a Republican president endorsed gay marriage, And then Democrats suddenly went full on social-conservative gays-destroy-teh-fabric-of-America. Beyond just the politics of it, it honestly is really quite surprising to me.

320 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:15:07pm

re: #317 Naso Tang

Which is why the internet is such a wonderful thing./

Bitching and porn. The backbone of the world wide web!

321 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:15:25pm

re: #303 The Sanity Inspector

Glad to see you’re safe!

Thank you. I watched the smoke from my building (+/- 6 miles).

Eerie. Got e-mails from friends and family from everywhere. Gratifying.

People ask if this was a terrorist attack. I don’t think so. This was an individual action based on individual crazee. Terrorism needs at least two players.

322 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:15:37pm

re: #313 WindUpBird

People are dumb and want to complain. Public participation takes effort and research. Complaining, not so much. :D

If coming as a supplicant to the process is good enough for you, then all is well. If you don’t believe that the process is compromised by money and special interests, then I have knowledge of a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in - hell of an investment opportunity.

323 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:01pm

re: #310 The Shadow Do

Then win the debate. This is who we are.

You cannot “debate” with fraud and computer crime.

324 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:15pm

re: #314 jamesfirecat

To be fair we often didn’t have far to go what with mission accomplished this and misunderestimate that…

Part of the fun of having a democracy is we get to find fault with the rulers, that is fine because they are far from perfect, regardless of their party affiliation.

What is amusing is the distorting effects of partisan bias, a Bush supporter will laud him for the same things he would condemn Obama, and the reverse is also true.

325 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:21pm

re: #316 Varek Raith

Heh, sorry but, the debate is heavily in favor of AGW.

I mean, good grief, look at how many in this country still think that evolution is a fantasy… I’m convinced most who deny AGW now will do so decades from now.
Great Fun!
;)

326 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:30pm

re: #299 Dark_Falcon

While I allow you your point, that the people won’t permit AGW-preventing legislation is more of testament to the power of the Denial Industry.

how do you know?…that’s mere speculation…in the meantime the green democrats have blocked nuclear power for thirty years…have they unblocked it….people want honesty and small steps in the right direction…how’s that ethanol project coming?…or all the windmills rusting away in CA and OK…show us the beef Mr AGW

327 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:38pm

re: #294 WindUpBird

It just cracks me up that after all the flag waving National Security kick-ass rhetoric, the instant a Democrat is at the help, it all just flutters out of their heads. Like butterflies! flit flit flit. A veneer as thin as a sheet of paper.

Same thing happened under Clinton. You’re attacking al Qaeda bases to deflect attention from the impeachment proceedings.

328 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:51pm

re: #318 jamesfirecat

You can’t win a debate with people who don’t argue in good faith, they don’t come to argue, they come to deceive…

Dang it James, I thought you were done with your run for benevolent dictator. My point is made, you just can’t trust folks…

329 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:55pm

Anybody for some more Jindo puppies?

330 Gus  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:16:59pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

Politics is politics. But it is pretty damn surprising that the Republicans, who are supposed to just OWN national security as an issue politically, are just abandoning it and running full tilt the other way. He’s killing TOO MANY terrorists? Wut? :D

it’d be like if a Republican president endorsed gay marriage, And then Democrats suddenly went full on social-conservative gays-destroy-teh-fabric-of-America. Beyond just the politics of it, it honestly is really quite surprising to me.

Good point. Beside being a flagrant display of moving the goal posts to suddenly go from prosecuting a war on terror to using rhetoric like “Obama is killing too many terrorists” is counter intuitive.

331 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:17:12pm

Bush Lied.

Then Obama Lied.

deh buble haz bursted.

332 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:17:12pm

re: #311 Naso Tang

Are you quoting Obama again?

funny, I got it the first time

333 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:17:40pm

re: #319 WindUpBird

Politics is politics. But it is pretty damn surprising that the Republicans, who are supposed to just OWN national security as an issue politically, are just abandoning it and running full tilt the other way. He’s killing TOO MANY terrorists? Wut? :D

it’d be like if a Republican president endorsed gay marriage, And then Democrats suddenly went full on social-conservative gays-destroy-teh-fabric-of-America. Beyond just the politics of it, it honestly is really quite surprising to me.

Now it’s not like this kind of thing is without precedent…. the A democratic president manages to sign one civil rights act and all of a sudden the Party of Lincoln becomes the new party of Strom Thurmond….

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:18:09pm

re: #322 The Shadow Do

If coming as a supplicant to the process is good enough for you, then all is well. If you don’t believe that the process is compromised by money and special interests, then I have knowledge of a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in - hell of an investment opportunity.

Yes, yes, bravo. That was a funny line when my dad told it to me 27 years ago. Anyway, all democratic processes are compromised. I saw your silly “roll over easy” line right up at the top, which pretty much lets me know any discussion with you would be pointless bumper sticker bullcrap.

335 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:18:19pm

re: #323 WindUpBird

You cannot “debate” with fraud and computer crime.

Hoo boy

336 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:18:54pm

re: #322 The Shadow Do

If coming as a supplicant to the process is good enough for you, then all is well. If you don’t believe that the process is compromised by money and special interests, then I have knowledge of a bridge in Brooklyn you may be interested in - hell of an investment opportunity.

It was my experience that it was the legislators who were more likely to be influenced by money and special interests than the worker-bees. Just sayin’.

337 Just never mind.  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:18:58pm

re: #329 Cato the Elder

Anybody for some more Jindo puppies?

Awww! Cute little guys!

338 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:19:15pm

re: #329 Cato the Elder

Anybody for some more Jindo puppies?

I want one

339 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:19:20pm

re: #321 austin_blue
I’d call it domestic terrorism. He was making a political point. It wasn’t random violence.

340 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:19:27pm

re: #329 Cato the Elder

Anybody for some more Jindo puppies?

Oh, I want one!

341 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:19:54pm

re: #305 Bagua

What are you talking about?

My point is that the Dems found fault with everything Bush did the same way the Repubs are now finding fault with everything Obama does.

But Bush thought it was a great idea to cut taxes in the middle of two wars. Good thing that’s the same that R’s doing now. Because it’s just the same.

//////////////////

342 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:20:13pm

re: #327 Olsonist

Same thing happened under Clinton. You’re attacking al Qaeda bases to deflect attention from the impeachment proceedings.

Yep! At least with Clinton, that was pre-9/11, and the average guy ont he street didn’t know Al Qaida from Al Yankovic. I figured post 9/11, national security would be a bit more of a 3rd rail. OH how wrong I was. I’m such an optimist.

343 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:20:23pm

re: #340 reine.de.tout

Oh, I want one!

I want one of these guys as a pet!
;)

344 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:20:48pm

re: #326 albusteve

how do you know?…that’s mere speculation…in the meantime the green democrats have blocked nuclear power for thirty years…have they unblocked it…people want honesty and small steps in the right direction…how’s that ethanol project coming?…or all the windmills rusting away in CA and OK…show us the beef Mr AGW

Working on it. I need to dig up one of Ludwig’s link posts.

345 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:21:03pm

re: #341 austin_blue

But Bush thought it was a great idea to cut taxes in the middle of two wars. Good thing that’s the same that R’s doing now. Because it’s just the same.

///

Patriotism!

346 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:21:08pm

re: #341 austin_blue

But Bush thought it was a great idea to cut taxes in the middle of two wars. Good thing that’s the same that R’s doing now. Because it’s just the same.

///

Its OK. Taxes are voluntary anyway.

347 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:21:08pm

re: #343 Varek Raith

I want one of these guys as a pet!
;)

Figures!
With a name like Varek Raith … a dog would be just too mundane a pet.

348 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:21:47pm

re: #347 reine.de.tout

Figures!
With a name like Varek Raith … a dog would be just too mundane a pet.

:)

349 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:04pm

re: #343 Varek Raith

I want one of these guys as a pet!
;)

Those can only be hunted and killed Varek. They’re too dangerous to be allowed out of stasis on a planetary surface.

350 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:05pm

re: #344 Dark_Falcon

Working on it. I need to dig up one of Ludwig’s link posts.

don’t bother, I won’t read it

351 Achilles Tang  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:06pm

re: #343 Varek Raith

I want one of these guys as a pet!
;)


What I think is you want to be a pet. Kinky.

352 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:20pm

I blame Obama.

353 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:33pm

re: #342 WindUpBird

Yep! At least with Clinton, that was pre-9/11, and the average guy ont he street didn’t know Al Qaida from Al Yankovic. I figured post 9/11, national security would be a bit more of a 3rd rail. OH how wrong I was. I’m such an optimist.

Isn’t the third rail, the one you’re not suppose to go near?

Or are you saying that it’d be an issue that people wouldn’t be willing to pick nits with….

354 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:47pm

re: #290 HoosierHoops

You can’t imagine the awe of standing next to a Redwood..
The one in Napa that got spared is all twisted around like a fairy tale tree…
Just beautiful…There are branches on that tree bigger than full grown oak trees.. Just amazing Jimmah..

It does sound almost other wordly, as is also suggested by the pictures I’m looking at just now. Ice-ski and I will be checking that out at some point on our travels, I think :)

355 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:51pm

re: #341 austin_blue

But Bush thought it was a great idea to cut taxes in the middle of two wars. Good thing that’s the same that R’s doing now. Because it’s just the same.

///

I don’t see things from such a partisan perspective, I believe politicians in general make mistakes, and I’m happy to criticise both sides.

356 reine.de.tout  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:22:51pm

Well, nighty-night.
Early morning Pilates class tomorrow, need my energy sleep.
Interesting conversations.
Y’all - please try not to insult each other.

357 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:23:39pm

re: #350 albusteve

don’t bother, I won’t read it

Asking questions and then ignoring the answers, huh?

358 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:24:17pm

re: #356 reine.de.tout

Pleasant dreams!

359 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:24:29pm

re: #353 jamesfirecat

Isn’t the third rail, the one you’re not suppose to go near?

Or are you saying that it’d be an issue that people wouldn’t be willing to pick nits with…

The latter. I’m probably butchering the metaphor. :D

360 Varek Raith  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:24:41pm

re: #350 albusteve

don’t bother, I won’t read it

Heh, you sound just like my dad when I argue politics with him!
;)

361 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:25:24pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Yes, yes, bravo. That was a funny line when my dad told it to me 27 years ago. Anyway, all democratic processes are compromised. I saw your silly “roll over easy” line right up at the top, which pretty much lets me know any discussion with you would be pointless bumper sticker bullcrap.

Yes, I aplogize for not being more au courant. The last bumper sticker I had said “I like Ike”. Still do for that matter.

362 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:26:02pm

the partisanship is so juvenile…Bush did it, Clinton this or that….BO is the smartest president ever, so they say….if that’s true he should easily learn from past mistakes…try living in the here and now…the whole thing is set up perfectly for he and his party…I don’t give a shit what Clinton did, or Bush….forge ahead

363 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:26:32pm

re: #356 reine.de.tout

night reine. don’t worry, no one ever insults anyone around here. Just good, honest debate.

364 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:26:42pm

re: #325 Varek Raith

I mean, good grief, look at how many in this country still think that evolution is a fantasy… I’m convinced most who deny AGW now will do so decades from now.
Great Fun!
;)

Poll out today. Seventy one percent of Americans believe that Iran has nukes now.

politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com

Gah! I seem to live in a country full of idjits!

365 The Shadow Do  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:26:51pm

re: #336 reine.de.tout

It was my experience that it was the legislators who were more likely to be influenced by money and special interests than the worker-bees. Just sayin’.

No argument there. Just saying that it is a mistake to think that an agency is somehow divorced from this naughtiness.

366 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:27:39pm

re: #354 Jimmah

It does sound almost other wordly, as is also suggested by the pictures I’m looking at just now. Ice-ski and I will be checking that out at some point on our travels, I think :)

I hope you and Ice get a chance to visit Napa Valley someday…
Where else can you visit God’s country and they offer you free wine to stay as long as possible? *wink*

367 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:28:07pm

re: #357 WindUpBird

Asking questions and then ignoring the answers, huh?

in this case yes….disregard my questions if you like

368 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:29:00pm

re: #321 austin_blue

Thank you. I watched the smoke from my building (+/- 6 miles).

Eerie. Got e-mails from friends and family from everywhere. Gratifying.

People ask if this was a terrorist attack. I don’t think so. This was an individual action based on individual crazee. Terrorism needs at least two players.

We were worried about you here.

I find this question of terminology interesting… I heard some random talking head on the radio also assert that this was not a terrorist attack. My thought was, ‘but he flew an airplane into a building full of people, what else do we call it?’ Confusing.

Not organised terrorism I suppose, but what he did is not much different from the various lone acts of terrorism we see from time to time by people unaffiliated with terrorist groups. Perhaps we need the term Terrorism as opposed to terrorism.

369 Just never mind.  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:29:00pm

re: #354 Jimmah

It’s also so wet, and mossy. Very quiet amaong the trees. Hushed and sounds are muffled. Truly amazing!

terragalleria.com

370 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:29:41pm

re: #227 Olsonist

Cato, the only way you’re sticking it to Apple is jail breaking.

That’s not sticking it to Apple, it’s sticking it to AT&T. Which would cost me around $200 in contract-annulment fees. And anyway I like their service.

Except in large parts of Maine, vast swathes of South Dakota, and all of Montana, where it is nonexistent. Oddly enough, I got rippin’ 3G connections the whole time I was in the Mojave.

Aside from making me a cool kid, what is the advantage of jailbreaking?

371 Racer X  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:30:01pm

re: #362 albusteve

the partisanship is so juvenile…Bush did it, Clinton this or that…BO is the smartest president ever, so they say…if that’s true he should easily learn from past mistakes…try living in the here and now…the whole thing is set up perfectly for he and his party…I don’t give a shit what Clinton did, or Bush…forge ahead

People can say whatever they want. Actions speak louder than words. Obama / Pelosi / Reid all said that we were going to get the most transparent and ethical government evah!

What did we get? More tax cheats! The same back room deals! Pork for votes!

CHANGE is a myth.

372 albusteve  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:31:34pm

re: #371 Racer X

People can say whatever they want. Actions speak louder than words. Obama / Pelosi / Reid all said that we were going to get the most transparent and ethical government evah!

What did we get? More tax cheats! The same back room deals! Pork for votes!

CHANGE is a myth.

the Unicorn Syndrome

373 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:33:16pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

That’s not sticking it to Apple, it’s sticking it to AT&T. Which would cost me around $200 in contract-annulment fees. And anyway I like their service.

Except in large parts of Maine, vast swathes of South Dakota, and all of Montana, where it is nonexistent. Oddly enough, I got rippin’ 3G connections the whole time I was in the Mojave.

Aside from making me a cool kid, what is the advantage of jailbreaking?

Even with a cracked screen, Sprint’s buyback would give you something back for that iphone, which would help reduce the ETF (Early Termination Fee). You could also get an Intrepid, a Windows Mobile phone that would let you handle all your work and fun matters from your phonr.

374 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:34:54pm

re: #372 albusteve

the Unicorn Syndrome

Ride them like a Pony
MP3 Audio

375 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:35:01pm

Okay. I’ve been watching Denmark and Canada Women’s Curling all night

That Cheryl Bernard?

RAWR.

I’m just sayin’.

376 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:35:24pm

re: #373 Dark_Falcon

Even with a cracked screen, Sprint’s buyback would give you something back for that iphone, which would help reduce the ETF (Early Termination Fee). You could also get an Intrepid, a Windows Mobile phone that would let you handle all your work and fun matters from your phonr.

Yeah, but:

1. You work for Sprint.

2. It’s. Not. An. iPhone. I have something like $400 invested in high-end dictionaries and stuff

Whatcha got to say now, smart guy? ;^)

377 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:36:03pm

re: #370 Cato the Elder

Choice of network and apps aren’t restricted by the iTunes Store. My iPhone is the original Edge network version. Damn thing just won’t die. I sail. I carry it in my back pocket and sit on it. Everything. It’s like a clingy girlfriend. The sex is good, a bit slow though. But I’m lusting after something else.

378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:36:31pm

Slipped on black ice tonight. Knee first. Didn’t face plant, tho.

Rather bust my ass, I’m thinkin’.

379 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:36:40pm

re: #376 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but:

1. You work for Sprint.

2. It’s. Not. An. iPhone. I have something like $400 invested in high-end dictionaries and stuff

Whatcha got to say now, smart guy? ;^)

There’s not much to be said in response to that. If the math does not work, it does not work. That happens sometimes.

380 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:37:39pm

re: #377 Olsonist

Choice of network and apps aren’t restricted by the iTunes Store. My iPhone is the original Edge network version. Damn thing just won’t die. I sail. I carry it in my back pocket and sit on it. Everything. It’s like a clingy girlfriend. The sex is good, a bit slow though. But I’m lusting after something else.

What about the apps I bought on iTunes? They still work on a jailbroken fone?

(Note to AT&T: This question asked for information purposes only.)

381 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:38:08pm

re: #364 austin_blue

It’s happened before. No, I mean before that. No, before that too.

382 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:38:13pm

re: #301 reine.de.tout

I had a friend that was screwing around with an engaged woman, her man geographically elsewhere for work, long term.

He was constantly bitching, or worrying, about her fidelity to him. Being the kind of friend that I am, I broke it down blunt and simple. Something like this:

“She has committed herself to another, her fiance, and is cheating on him with you. Consider that for a moment, and ask yourself where you stand with her. I’ll tell you: you’re less than shit to her. You have no right to complain about her infidelity to you, because she is not being unfaithful to you, she is being unfaithful to her fiance. So quit being such a hypocritical baby about it. Either enjoy the ride or get the fuck off. She wasn’t yours to begin with, and the only person who has a right to be pissed off about any of this is the man she committed herself to.”

383 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:39:25pm

re: #378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Slipped on black ice tonight. Knee first. Didn’t face plant, tho.

Rather bust my ass, I’m thinkin’.

Dang..Black and Blue in the morning..
Be well

384 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:40:08pm

re: #355 Bagua

I don’t see things from such a partisan perspective, I believe politicians in general make mistakes, and I’m happy to criticise both sides.

Really?!?!?

Really?!?!?!?

I’ve always seen you as Grover Norquist Libertarian/Con who fails to accept that a lack of regulation on banking/investment risk, medical care cost increases, and tax policy have led us into this economic shitstorm.

Oh, and that AGW is an open question.

“Both sides”

Really?!?!?

385 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:40:52pm

re: #369 Floral Giraffe

It’s also so wet, and mossy. Very quiet amaong the trees. Hushed and sounds are muffled. Truly amazing!

[Link: www.terragalleria.com…]

Forests can create amazing atmospheres. You can see how people came to believe in fairies - especially when you take into account some of the interesting mushrooms that tend to grow in those places ;-)

386 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:41:08pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

What about the apps I bought on iTunes? They still work on a jailbroken fone?

(Note to AT&T: This question asked for information purposes only.)

Most iPhones are locked to only work on AT&T’s network. And I don’t suggest switching to T-Mobile. Their network is much smaller, and not as fast. Between the two national GSM carriers, AT&T is in fact the better one.

387 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:41:53pm

re: #380 Cato the Elder

Yeah, but iPhone system software upgrades require re-jailbreaking.

DF, does Sprint have anything Androidy?

388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:42:15pm

I think that Curling is the most fascinating game in the Winter Olympics.

My wife thinks I’m a dork.

Wonder why? I didn’t think so.

389 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:42:31pm

re: #378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Slipped on black ice tonight. Knee first. Didn’t face plant, tho.

Rather bust my ass, I’m thinkin’.

I’d rather stay upright. But I hope your joints are all well come tomorrow. You know what I mean.

390 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:43:03pm

re: #385 Jimmah

Who you callin’ a “fairy”!?!?
/

391 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:43:26pm

re: #388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that Curling is the most fascinating game in the Winter Olympics.

My wife thinks I’m a dork.

Wonder why? I didn’t think so.

I agree with your Wife…You are a Dork..
but don’t worry Veggie..There is an App for that..
/

392 jamesfirecat  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:43:37pm

Just out of blind curiosity (yes I know what it does to cats) how did reformatting a piece of equipment you’ve paid money to own become comparable with busting a convicted person out of a state facility?

(Jailbreaking…)

393 Authoritarian F*ckpuddles  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:44:48pm

Night folks!

Youtube Video

394 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:44:50pm

re: #368 Bagua

We were worried about you here.

I find this question of terminology interesting… I heard some random talking head on the radio also assert that this was not a terrorist attack. My thought was, ‘but he flew an airplane into a building full of people, what else do we call it?’ Confusing.

Not organised terrorism I suppose, but what he did is not much different from the various lone acts of terrorism we see from time to time by people unaffiliated with terrorist groups. Perhaps we need the term Terrorism as opposed to terrorism.

This guy was no different than a “disgruntled employee”. He just happened to own an airplane. Piper PA-28 vs. three 9 mm pistols.

Lone gunman.

And thank you for your concern.

It really is appreciated.

395 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:44:56pm

re: #384 austin_blue

Really?!?!?

Really?!?!?!?

I’ve always seen you as Grover Norquist Libertarian/Con who fails to accept that a lack of regulation on banking/investment risk, medical care cost increases, and tax policy have led us into this economic shitstorm.

Oh, and that AGW is an open question.

“Both sides”

Really?!?!?

Really?!?!?!??

Because you see things from an American partisan view does not improve your ability to see partisan bias in others.

396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:45:19pm

In the defense of my love for Olympic Curling.

I got them to turn the biiig screen to curling.

Whole damn place was watching it.

397 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:45:50pm

re: #388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that Curling is the most fascinating game in the Winter Olympics.

My wife thinks I’m a dork.

Wonder why? I didn’t think so.

Ever watch Men With Brooms?

398 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:46:18pm

re: #396 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

In the defense of my love for Olympic Curling.

I got them to turn the biiig screen to curling.

Whole damn place was watching it.

(dang. IN THE SPORTS BAR WHERE I WAS HANGING TONIGHT!)

399 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:47:17pm

re: #394 austin_blue

This guy was no different than a “disgruntled employee”. He just happened to own an airplane. Piper PA-28 vs. three 9 mm pistols.

Lone gunman.

And thank you for your concern.

It really is appreciated.

He was insane.. It’s that simple..
One of the first posts here that day was someone asking where you were and If you were OK….
Good to see you

400 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:47:26pm

re: #397 Olsonist

Heh.

Saw a sign in a customer’s kitchen last night. Said…

“No man was ever shot while washing dishes.”

401 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:47:39pm

re: #398 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

(dang. IN THE SPORTS BAR WHERE I WAS HANGING TONIGHT!)

Yeah, whatever. Probably sipping Perrier, playing chess. Get crazy, FBV!

402 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:48:51pm

re: #388 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

I think that Curling is the most fascinating game in the Winter Olympics.

My wife thinks I’m a dork.

Wonder why? I didn’t think so.

To be fair, you’ve racked up plenty of dork cred before admitting your curling fascination. Just sayin’.

403 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:49:02pm

re: #400 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

If you like curling, ya gotta check out Men With Brooms.

404 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:49:33pm

re: #395 Bagua

Really?!?!?!??

Because you see things from an American partisan view does not improve your ability to see partisan bias in others.

Interesting statement. I’ll admit that I look at things from an American (left of center) attitude, but your point is unclear.

405 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:49:53pm

re: #403 Olsonist

Thanks! I will!

406 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:50:51pm

re: #394 austin_blue

This guy was no different than a “disgruntled employee”. He just happened to own an airplane. Piper PA-28 vs. three 9 mm pistols.

Lone gunman.

And thank you for your concern.

It really is appreciated.

I know your position is that individuals such as this are better described as other than a terrorist, as in the Ft. Hood shooter. That is why I am proposing the term terrorism with a small T, as opposed to those affiliated with an organised terrorist group.

I think we do have to distinguish between the various manifestations of this insanity as we seem to be experiencing quite a bit of it.

407 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:51:48pm

re: #400 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Heh.

Saw a sign in a customer’s kitchen last night. Said…

“No man was ever shot while washing dishes.”

I got a new HP laptop today Veggie! Wicked..I got it hooked up to the Big Screen and have High Def LGF on the Samsung with a wireless keyboard and mouse…So I’m split screen between a movie and blogging right now…
/pssss…I can read the Text across the room..Wicked Veggie!

408 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:52:23pm

re: #394 austin_blue

Blue, was the Unabomber a terrorist? He was definitely completely alone.

409 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:52:38pm

re: #399 HoosierHoops

He was insane.. It’s that simple..
One of the first posts here that day was someone asking where you were and If you were OK…
Good to see you

I appreciate all of the questions concerning my safety! This board is the best!

410 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:53:41pm

re: #403 Olsonist

If you like curling, ya gotta check out Men With Brooms.

I am not Googling that.

411 Cato the Elder  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:54:22pm

re: #378 Fat Bastard Vegetarian

Slipped on black ice tonight. Knee first. Didn’t face plant, tho.

Rather bust my ass, I’m thinkin’.

It’s very hard to actually do a face-plant. Built-in biological protection.

Slamming the back of your head into the concrete, though, that’s easy. Biological protection not so hot.

Feel better soon.

412 lostlakehiker  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:56:09pm

But having the EPA outlaw breathing isn’t “legislative action”. It’s a power play by the executive. Greenhouse emissions, if they must be controlled unilaterally inside the U.S. (an approach which won’t make a lick of difference, but whatever), should be controlled by a plain old tax on CO2. Not by outlawing emissions.

The Feds won’t actually outlaw breathing. They’ll generously make an exception and permit light breathing. Maybe even heavy breathing. But the regulatory approach will be invasive and onerous compared to a tax. Worse yet, it creates a legal precedent whereby the executive can simply decree laws. If CO2 is a pollutant, then so is oxygen. If not for oxygen, there wouldn’t be any forest fires, now would there? If not for oxygen, there wouldn’t be any CO2 forming.

We must do something. Granted. But power plays and high handed regulatory edict is not that something.

413 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:56:20pm

re: #410 Slumbering Behemoth

Check it out on IMDB. Seriously, it’s the only freaking curling movie ever made. It’s even got Leslie Nielsen (Canadian).

414 HoosierHoops  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:58:33pm

Floral? you here?

415 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:58:43pm

re: #406 Bagua

I know your position is that individuals such as this are better described as other than a terrorist, as in the Ft. Hood shooter. That is why I am proposing the term terrorism with a small T, as opposed to those affiliated with an organised terrorist group.

I think we do have to distinguish between the various manifestations of this insanity as we seem to be experiencing quite a bit of it.

Channeling DF, Quite Concur.

416 freetoken  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:58:54pm

re: #412 lostlakehiker

No, the EPA doesn’t set a legal precedent here.

Recommend you read legal expert Jonathan Adler’s latest article on this topic (found at Volokh and NRO, I believe). He doesn’t like the idea of EPA regulating CO2, but fully admits it is certainly within the law as written.

417 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 9:59:33pm

re: #415 austin_blue

Channeling DF, Quite Concur.

And I concur as well. Your suggestion has my support, Bagua.

418 cliffster  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:01:41pm

re: #413 Olsonist

Check it out on IMDB. Seriously, it’s the only freaking curling movie ever made. It’s even got Leslie Nielsen (Canadian).

Canada: Amaerica’s hat

419 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:03:16pm

re: #404 austin_blue

Interesting statement. I’ll admit that I look at things from an American (left of center) attitude, but your point is unclear.

I’m saying that you are pigeon holing me into a partisan identity. I have no party affiliation in general and my strongest fascinations and positions are international in nature. Thus I tend to hold all politicians and their parties in contempt, especially the major ones I observe and comment on, such as Republican, Democrat, Labour, Tory, and especially the EU. It is more coincidence that the Republicans appear to be adopting positions I now, on balance, favour.

AGW for example has been a fascination of mine since long before the Republicans co-opted it. I said several times that they have damaged scepticism for me as they are reducing it to a partisan issue when I believe it is scientific. In the UK all the majors are pro-AGW, so do you imagine I support Cameron because he is a ‘conservative’?

On social issues I am generally liberal, so which party do I identify with? The answer is none.

420 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:03:20pm

re: #408 Olsonist

Blue, was the Unabomber a terrorist? He was definitely completely alone.

Interesting question! Was he a terrorist or a serial killer?

I’d say serial killer, based on core motivation.

Agreed?

421 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:04:46pm

re: #420 austin_blue

I’d say both.

422 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:08:54pm

re: #420 austin_blue

Interesting question! Was he a terrorist or a serial killer? I’d say serial killer, based on core motivation. Agreed?

He wasn’t just trying to kill people Jeffrey Dahmer style. He didn’t do it in silence. He had a ‘political agenda’ and concluded with his screedy manifesto. But he was alone. Sad to say, people with opposable thumbs actually listened to him.

423 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:10:30pm

re: #421 Slumbering Behemoth

More distinctly… a serial killer by motive, a terrorist by method.

424 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:17:32pm

re: #419 Bagua

I’m saying that you are pigeon holing me into a partisan identity. I have no party affiliation in general and my strongest fascinations and positions are international in nature. Thus I tend to hold all politicians and their parties in contempt, especially the major ones I observe and comment on, such as Republican, Democrat, Labour, Tory, and especially the EU. It is more coincidence that the Republicans appear to be adopting positions I now, on balance, favour.

AGW for example has been a fascination of mine since long before the Republicans co-opted it. I said several times that they have damaged scepticism for me as they are reducing it to a partisan issue when I believe it is scientific. In the UK all the majors are pro-AGW, so do you imagine I support Cameron because he is a ‘conservative’?

On social issues I am generally liberal, so which party do I identify with? The answer is none.

First off, thanks for a very considered response, I was too hard on you. Mea culpa.

I just think that climate change is such an accepted fact among the scientists that study it that the deniers have stopped attacking the *science* and are now attacking the *scientists*.

425 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:17:41pm

re: #423 Slumbering Behemoth

More distinctly… a serial killer by motive, a terrorist by method.

That’s a good definition.

426 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:19:08pm

re: #423 Slumbering Behemoth

I remember reading a long biographical piece after they caught that shithead. He taught at Cal and I took classes in the buildings he taught in and the building he sent a bomb to, so I had a particular hatred for him.

Anyways, he had a favorite book that he’d read 30 times. It was Conrad’s The Secret Agent. Conrad is a great writer so no harm there but I had to read it to figure out what he liked about it. Turns out there’s a small terrorist who walks around with a bomb so that the police are afraid to even arrest him. He gloried in this guys power.

Sick fuck.

427 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:23:14pm

re: #422 Olsonist

He wasn’t just trying to kill people Jeffrey Dahmer style. He didn’t do it in silence. He had a ‘political agenda’ and concluded with his screedy manifesto. But he was alone. Sad to say, people with opposable thumbs actually listened to him.

He was also a Lone Gunman. Hard to call that terrorism.

But i see your point.

Just don’t know if I agree that a Lone Gunman is a terrorist as opposed as to a murderer.

428 austin_blue  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:25:52pm

Going up thread .

429 Olsonist  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:28:43pm

re: #427 austin_blue

I always think of terror as wanting the act to carry with it fear to a larger population and a political message. Dahmer probably got off on the fear but he had no message. Kozinski used his murders to create fear, very real fear, and used that to get his ‘message’ read. That’s terror.

The plane guy wanted the IRS to fear him and people like him. He left his own screedy message which was even picked up by Fox and that fuck from Massachusetts. That’s terror.

430 Bagua  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:32:37pm

re: #424 austin_blue

First off, thanks for a very considered response, I was too hard on you. Mea culpa.

I just think that climate change is such an accepted fact among the scientists that study it that the deniers have stopped attacking the *science* and are now attacking the *scientists*.

Perhaps we can agree that the politicisation of science in general is fraught with problems?

Those now under ‘attack’, either chose, or were chosen to represent their field in the public arena and were active in informing politicians and voters on public policy. In some cases, such as Gore, Pachauri and Watson, they were highly committed to pursue this political track from the start. They can’t really complain on that basis as politics is a rough business and they chose it.

Others, such as Jones and Mann were just backwater scientists doing their thing, but then the media and politics got a hold of them and they became stars, celebrities. Some of that fame is coming back to bite them as they are now facing scrutiny.

431 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:34:27pm

re: #430 Bagua

Perhaps we can agree that the politicisation of science in general is fraught with problems?

Those now under ‘attack’, either chose, or were chosen to represent their field in the public arena and were active in informing politicians and voters on public policy. In some cases, such as Gore, Pachauri and Watson, they were highly committed to pursue this political track from the start. They can’t really complain on that basis as politics is a rough business and they chose it.

Others, such as Jones and Mann were just backwater scientists doing their thing, but then the media and politics got a hold of them and they became stars, celebrities. Some of that fame is coming back to bite them as they are now facing scrutiny.

The media will make you into a star and then tear you apart, all so they can make money. We all know this, but it bears repeating. Fame is often a bitch.

432 lostlakehiker  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:38:38pm

re: #16 Charles

Gee. Why would a coal company be against climate change legislation?

That’s a head scratcher, all right.

The coal company, at the moment, is objecting not to climate change legislation, which I applaud. It’s objecting to legislation by executive decree, which is a particular case of a bad practice: rule by decree rather than rule of law.

We can get better legislation than we will get regulation. We can get it by lawful means that respect the traditional and legal constraints on executive authority. And Peabody is right that this situation is different from emissions of pollutants that directly threaten human health.

Even a company with its own irons in the fire can have a valid point, mixed in with all the tommyrot they dredge up because that’s what lawyers do.

433 phil06  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:47:49pm

It was settled science when the Clean Air Act was written that CO2 is not a health hazard

434 Dark_Falcon  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 10:53:33pm

re: #433 phil06

Registered two years and this is your first comment?! I smell socks.

435 freetoken  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:16:02pm

re: #433 phil06

Just not true. While global warming was not on the forefront of the political compass when the Clean Air Act was created, climate change was a scientific discussion.

Even at face value your claim is false, for CO2 concentrations above a certain level, in enclosed situations, is a health hazard and that was known at the time, but such circumstances were just not the purview of the Clean Air Act, for to intentionally raise the CO2 concentration within a closed facility (housing humans) would be addressed by criminal law (from manslaughter to murder.)

436 Pythagoras  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:18:22pm

re: #435 freetoken

Water is fatal when inhaled. That doesn’t make it a pollutant.

Water vapor is a greenhouse gas. That doesn’t make it a pollutant.

437 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:28:42pm

re: #436 Pythagoras

Urine is a natural liquid. That doesn’t make it a healthy drink.
/What game are we playing, anyway?

438 blueraven  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:31:28pm

re: #362 albusteve

the partisanship is so juvenile…Bush did it, Clinton this or that…BO is the smartest president ever, so they say…if that’s true he should easily learn from past mistakes…try living in the here and now…the whole thing is set up perfectly for he and his party…I don’t give a shit what Clinton did, or Bush…forge ahead

I think that is exactly what Obama is doing. Forging ahead. Doing the business that needs to be done in Pakistan/Afghanistan and taking the fight to the enemy there. It is just amazing that he is catching flack for killing too many of them. The mind boggles.

439 Pythagoras  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:32:29pm

By the way, I’m not disagreeing with what you said. The term “health hazard” can be taken different ways.

As you noted, the EPAs purview doesn’t cover all forms of poisoning. You can kill someone with lots of things the EPA shouldn’t call pollutants (or health hazards).

440 Pythagoras  Fri, Feb 19, 2010 11:38:58pm

re: #437 Slumbering Behemoth

Urine is a natural liquid. That doesn’t make it a healthy drink.
/What game are we playing, anyway?

“Natural” means nothing; lots of honest pollutants (e.g., wood smoke) are natural.

I think the EPA is off the rails on this one. They have thrown the dictionary away and made up a new definition of pollutant. If they don’t have to conform to the dictionary, they can ban handguns as pollutants too. It is not the EPA’s job to rule on global warming. The lack of logic in what they did is stunning.

441 herbieham  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 2:20:58am

I don’t post much here -by the time us Aussies get a go its always up to post gazzillion -and well, LGF has gone a little strange of late.

Sure is amusing watching the bickering while your country circles the toilet, For heavens sake, when the great nation of the free no longer is free -just look at yourselves -the individual opinion of the individual American means squat now -be dissenting and you are doomed to be dumped on as “not being like us” -heaven help the rest of the free world.

Go turn of your coal industry right now -its like -you’ve got the alternative ready to roll right now -haven’t you?

Does America actually produce anything anymore?
Anything to pay back your 14 trillion dollar disaster debt?
It will get worse when you have to import our coal to keep your lights on.
Legislation by executive decree, which is a particular case of a bad practice: rule by decree rather than rule of law.
Good luck in the United socialist states of america -and thats a small a
america

442 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 4:07:36am

re: #441 herbieham

All this post reminded me of is that I really wish we could get the Holden Commodore HSV Tourer here in the states. 425 hp muscle station wagon? yes please!

443 swamprat  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 7:29:23am

re: #441 herbieham

I don’t post much here -by the time us Aussies get a go its always up to post gazzillion -and well, LGF has gone a little strange of late.

Sure is amusing watching the bickering while your country circles the toilet, For heavens sake, when the great nation of the free no longer is free -just look at yourselves -the individual opinion of the individual American means squat now -be dissenting and you are doomed to be dumped on as “not being like us” -heaven help the rest of the free world.

Go turn of your coal industry right now -its like -you’ve got the alternative ready to roll right now -haven’t you?

Does America actually produce anything anymore?
Anything to pay back your 14 trillion dollar disaster debt?
It will get worse when you have to import our coal to keep your lights on.
Legislation by executive decree, which is a particular case of a bad practice: rule by decree rather than rule of law.
Good luck in the United socialist states of america -and thats a small a
america

herbieham

Karma: -12
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Besides hating America in general, and lgf of late, what’s up?

444 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 8:58:32am

re: #440 Pythagoras

“Natural” means nothing; lots of honest pollutants (e.g., wood smoke) are natural.

I think the EPA is off the rails on this one. They have thrown the dictionary away and made up a new definition of pollutant. If they don’t have to conform to the dictionary, they can ban handguns as pollutants too. It is not the EPA’s job to rule on global warming. The lack of logic in what they did is stunning.

That’s silly, and it’s not even true. The EPA did not classify CO2 as a “pollutant” — they ruled that greenhouse gases are a threat to public health.

They ARE. The amount of denial you have to sustain to try to pretend otherwise is prodigious.

445 Charles Johnson  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 8:59:47am

re: #433 phil06

Yet another sleeper awakes.

446 Funky_Gibbon  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:17:41am

Good, take it to court. Let’s have another Dover trial where evidence wipes the floor against rhetoric and ignorance.

447 lostlakehiker  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:32:39am

re: #444 Charles

That’s silly, and it’s not even true. The EPA did not classify CO2 as a “pollutant” — they ruled that greenhouse gases are a threat to public health.

They ARE. The amount of denial you have to sustain to try to pretend otherwise is prodigious.

That kind of ruling is outside the proper limits of EPA authority. The chain of causation that makes CO2 a threat to public health is no more direct than the chain of causation that makes a nuclear Iran a threat to public health, for example. But no one argues with a straight face that the decision on what to do about Iran is a regulatory matter. Big decisions on fundamental questions are properly reserved for the Congress.

The EPA cannot take the nation to war with Iran on its own say-so. It ought not to be able to issue regulations on just any matter that tangentially affects human health, because by that standard, there isn’t anything anywhere that they cannot regulate.

Process matters. Getting the right decision by the wrong means is attractive, but it tends to backfire. Pretty soon society finds itself getting wrong decisions by wrong means and no way to revoke the ill advised grants of authority it made to ‘get things done’. As well, economists have long noted that taxation is economically more effective than regulation as a way to reduce harmful emissions. Since the EPA’s logic is that economic harm equals harm to human health, by their own standard, their regulatory step itself is a threat to human health, and the EPA must therefore ban the EPA.

Jeffrey Sachs makes the point in the current issue of Scientific American that taxing CO2 is the least disruptive path to reduced emissions. But reducing carbon emissions can only be carried so far without abandoning industrial civilization, unless we have alternative energy sources up and running, and on a massive scale. Getting there will be a project for our whole society.

The real solution to AGW is going to require massive efforts. We’re going to have to build a new infrastructure. It will serve us well in the long run, even if we didn’t have AGW to worry about. But such an effort requires public support. Obama’s decision to authorize and support the construction of new nuclear plants is the right kind of step. It’s a proper exercise of authority, it’s a teaching moment, and it promises sweat, rather than just blood and tears. That is, it gives us hope that we can have our climate and industrial civilization too.

448 Pythagoras  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:42:03am

re: #444 Charles

That’s silly, and it’s not even true. The EPA did not classify CO2 as a “pollutant” — they ruled that greenhouse gases are a threat to public health.

They ARE. The amount of denial you have to sustain to try to pretend otherwise is prodigious.

Your first sentence is CORRECT.

I was wrong on that. However, their “endangerment finding” precisely nails what I disagree on. If they actually have, as an agency, the power to unilaterally declare this and enforce changes in all our lives, I am appalled. Is no due process required?

I don’t “deny” all the normal stuff about climate, the greenhouse effect, etc. It’s the endangerment that I take issue with. Temperature, sea level, sea ice loss are all progressing quite linearly. It IS getting warmer, but we are well into the time period where many predicted we would reach a tipping point and global warming would accelerate. Absent that acceleration, it will NOT be a problem and the EPA’s “endangerment finding” will be wrong.

The newsworthy part about the temperature over the last 10 or 15 years is that it hasn’t accelerated. The statistical study that showed it wasn’t a significant drop missed the point. If we even have to consider if temperature dropped, accelerated temperature rise hasn’t begun.

I fully expect the temperature to “get back on track” to the long term linear increase. It’s been a bit slow lately but such wobbles around the long, slow climb are absolutely normal. When it returns to the long term linear trend, it won’t be a problem.

The rise in temperature doesn’t endanger things if it continues at the current long term pace. LVQ and I went round and round on the papers that talk about tipping points. They are lacking in details; they categorize mechanisms, and survey experts on which ones are more likely, but when it gets down to mathematical formulas, they’re weak.

The catastrophe gets more overdue every year. The alarmists are starting to face a typical false prophet reaction from the people who believed their predictions. I expect this trend to continue “linearly” too.

449 Uncle Obdicut  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:49:43am

re: #447 lostlakehiker

hat kind of ruling is outside the proper limits of EPA authority.

The Supreme Court disagrees. As does common sense.

450 Pythagoras  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:52:51am

re: #449 Obdicut

The Supreme Court disagrees. As does common sense.

Hmmm. I’d like to see the relevant decision.

451 Uncle Obdicut  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 10:54:08am

re: #450 Pythagoras

Well, look it the hell up then.

Can you explain your bizarre rationale that a linear increase in temperature is just fine?

452 Pythagoras  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 11:05:37am

re: #451 Obdicut

Can you explain your bizarre rationale that a linear increase in temperature is just fine?

It’s not my rationale; it’s theirs. Their predictions (e.g., much of Florida under water) they are not about a few millimeters of sea level rise per year. When you look at the charts, they show curvature upward. Tipping points are their key to the climate change being irreversible. If it’s just linear then we can slow it down or reverse it by slowing down or reversing CO2 release.

But with the tipping points, “we only have a few more years” (which they’ve been saving for far too long), “we must act now,” etc.

453 Uncle Obdicut  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 11:43:09am

re: #452 Pythagoras

Even without a tipping point— which there is no reason to doubt, your weak protestations aside— occurring, changes will still occur, and would— will— continue to occur during the period of slowing CO2 release.

Your concentration on sea level rise is ignoring the many other outcomes of temperature rise, many of which are quite brutal even at lower levels of changing temperature. The short is that there is no way of knowing what will happen in the biological kingdom as a result of this, and being blithely sanguine about it as you are attempting is not going to cut it.

“Their” predictions about most of Florida being under water is a nice touch, though. “They” are so bad, aren’t “they”?

454 Pythagoras  Sat, Feb 20, 2010 4:07:55pm

re: #453 Obdicut

Even without a tipping point— which there is no reason to doubt, your weak protestations aside— occurring, changes will still occur, and would— will— continue to occur during the period of slowing CO2 release.

Your concentration on sea level rise is ignoring the many other outcomes of temperature rise, many of which are quite brutal even at lower levels of changing temperature. The short is that there is no way of knowing what will happen in the biological kingdom as a result of this, and being blithely sanguine about it as you are attempting is not going to cut it.

“Their” predictions about most of Florida being under water is a nice touch, though. “They” are so bad, aren’t “they”?

I used an “e.g.” on sea level in my last comment; I gave a longer list in the previous, longer comment. Sea level is one of the more common points made to motivate people to act on CO2, but it’s not the only one. If I can’t use just one for an example, all my posts will have to be long ones.

I don’t consider the global warming activists to be a monolithic group but I never thought the term “they” would be considered pejorative.

The CO2 increase will not be slowing anytime soon — China’s coal based electrification project virtually guarantees that.

455 kyros  Sun, Feb 21, 2010 12:07:37pm

How is C02 a pollutant? It is part of the eco-system, animals breathe in oxygen and breathe out C02 and plants breathe in the inverse. Carbon dioxide should never be allowed to be labeled a pollutant.

456 Jimmy Doolittle  Sun, Feb 21, 2010 10:58:41pm

The idea that CO2 is a pollutant will be recorded by historians as an epic failure of the politicization of science.

If this ever got to a court case, I would defend against any violation of the Clean Air Act by getting the scientific (chemical) composition of Clean Air defined. Guess what, it contains CO2.


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