Wikileaks Revenge Hacker Arrested in Netherlands

Technology • Views: 26,663

Yesterday I commented:

The anonymous folks may think they’re really anonymous and all proxied up and everything, but if a company like Visa has virtually unlimited money to spend on it (which they do), they will be identified.

Today the first arrest in the Wikileaks revenge hacking cases took place: a 16-year old Dutch boy.

4chan vigilante group Anonymous is used to getting away with its DDoS attacks and other  Internet shenanigans, but that’s not going to be the case this time around. An arrest has been made in 4chan’s revenge attacks on PayPal, Visa, and MasterCard, begun after the companies stopped providing services to WikiLeaks. The first to go down is a Dutch 16-year-old boy, who has been arrested by the Dutch High Tech Crime Team and is being held for interrogation.

The teenager went unnamed by the National Prosecutor, but the team said in an announcement Thursday that the cyberattacks (some of which came out of the Netherlands) “quickly led” investigators to the suspect. In addition to his arrest, the 4channer’s computers and other devices were seized.

Proving once again that it’s probably not a good idea to meddle with the primal forces of nature.

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362 comments
1 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:28:24pm

what's all this i hear about a Denial of Servants attack?

i feel sorry for the poor millionaires stuck in the library without their evening single malt...

2 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:31:34pm

I think sp checker got you there Charles "Primal forces of nature"

3 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:32:07pm

Wow they did move a lot faster that I expected, but then again this explains why I only do computer programming and don't mess around with fancy network stuff...

4 karmic_inquisitor  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:39:04pm

re: #3 jamesfirecat

The laws on who gets access to deep packet inspection tools are different in each country. So that may play a part. But the article implies that this kid was a known entity and that the authorities knew where to look.

5 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:39:05pm

The average moron who is helping these attacks has no idea what they're really getting into.

6 Jeff In Ohio  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:44:46pm

I'm going to have a good laugh when it turns out these "dedicated cyber freedom fighters" I keep reading about all over the Interwebs. who selflessly challenging the Corporatists in a fight for the soul of the Internet, are teen age boys who basically can't sustain meat world social relations.

maybe someone should link them to yesterdays thread on courting for tweeners.

7 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:47:34pm

so the dutch boy was caught red-handed eh?

//

8 Randall Gross  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:47:58pm

re: #5 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The average moron who is helping these attacks has no idea what they're really getting into.

Some people helping unwillingly are mostly elderly and computer illiterate. They furnish the slaved computers in the botnets used for the DDOS attacks.

9 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:48:49pm

Lock up the idiots. More please.

10 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:50:31pm

re: #3 jamesfirecat

Wow they did move a lot faster that I expected, but then again this explains why I only do computer programming and don't mess around with fancy network stuff...

yeah - me, i'm just an old fashioned applications developer - mostly desktop

i design and build things. i don't know much about invading and breaking things

11 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:52:02pm

re: #8 Thanos

Some people helping unwillingly are mostly elderly and computer illiterate. They furnish the slaved computers in the botnets used for the DDOS attacks.

I'm not talking about those people. They got used as dupes. I'm talking about the kids who are managing the botnets and think its cool.

12 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:52:17pm

These folks are about to learn that internet shennanigans perpetrated against multi-billion dollar companies have a markedly different outcome than those perpetrated against an enraged middle-class dad.

13 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:53:16pm

Frankly I don't see it any different as trying to stop downloading copyrighted materials.

I heard there could be 30,000 machines so far involved in the DOS, one has been arrested.

Lets take some bets:
What percentage of these will be arrested?
How many countries are these people from?
How much money will it cost?
How much time would it take?
What type of punishment will be handed out in this case?

I won't bore you by going on.
Yes, they may try to make an example of a few to try to scare the rest.

14 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:53:45pm

16? Figures. Otoh, he probably does not live in his parents' basement. Basements are rare in the Netherlands, since the ground itself is below the nominal water table in many parts of the country.

15 Yashmak  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 3:58:33pm

re: #13 ozbloke

Frankly I don't see it any different as trying to stop downloading copyrighted materials.

I heard there could be 30,000 machines so far involved in the DOS, one has been arrested.

Lets take some bets:
What percentage of these will be arrested?
How many countries are these people from?
How much money will it cost?
How much time would it take?
What type of punishment will be handed out in this case?

I won't bore you by going on.
Yes, they may try to make an example of a few to try to scare the rest.

Alot of those machines will have been slaved. Probably the number of actual perpetrators is orders of magnitude lower. That said, there's likely no real way for any of us to quantify the results, except for your question about what type of punishment will be handed out to those who are indeed arrested.

16 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:02:52pm

re: #15 Yashmak

Alot of those machines will have been slaved. Probably the number of actual perpetrators is orders of magnitude lower. That said, there's likely no real way for any of us to quantify the results, except for your question about what type of punishment will be handed out to those who are indeed arrested.

As rage occurs over the net at the so called 'attacks' on free speech (particularly if Assange is extradited), how many more with join the DOS network.

This could become much larger much quicker, as some move out, others move in.

Please look at music/video downloads, its hardly stoppable at the net currently exists.

Frankly I think its a fools errand.

17 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:03:56pm

re: #15 Yashmak

Alot of those machines will have been slaved. Probably the number of actual perpetrators is orders of magnitude lower. That said, there's likely no real way for any of us to quantify the results, except for your question about what type of punishment will be handed out to those who are indeed arrested.

I don't think the Ducth will cut off his "mouse finger"... and being only 16, I don't see the punishment being very harsh. I could be wrong.

18 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:04:44pm

re: #16 ozbloke

PIMF: Please look at music/video downloads, its hardly stoppable AS the net currently exists.

19 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:11:31pm

I want to share another thought.

The US govt. had months of lead time.
They knew the documents were to be released.
They had ample time to know the whereabouts of Assange.

If the govt. believed they had a case that would stand, he would/could/should have been arrested on day one of the release.

Its a personal view, I got no links.

It is their inability to have a case that makes them phone around the corps, and point out that they should read there own terms of service.

Again no links...

20 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:12:48pm

Is this thing on?
Tap tap tap...

Bugger, I think I killed another thread.

21 elizajane  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:13:50pm

re: #14 Shiplord Kirel

16? Figures. Otoh, he probably does not live in his parents' basement. Basements are rare in the Netherlands, since the ground itself is below the nominal water table in many parts of the country.

Pretty OT here, but Amsterdam is not like Venice. I have a nice, dry basement in a canal house. Wanna live there while you pursue your career as a hacker?

22 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:14:56pm

Poor kid is going to be jailed for someone else's nihalistic ideas...

23 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:15:15pm

Tragically, it is the younger, less experienced members who will get taken down, not the more effective older members, who probably deserve to be locked up more.

All the same, if he has broken the law, he should be punished--as a juvenile, of course.

24 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:15:17pm

re: #19 ozbloke

I want to share another thought.

The US govt. had months of lead time.
They knew the documents were to be released.
They had ample time to know the whereabouts of Assange.

If the govt. believed they had a case that would stand, he would/could/should have been arrested on day one of the release.

Its a personal view, I got no links.

It is their inability to have a case that makes them phone around the corps, and point out that they should read there own terms of service.

Again no links...

there is always the possibility that the docs were intended to be leaked... it is a long shot but hey, it makes as much sense as the rest of it.

25 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:17:22pm

re: #22 yasharki

He bought in to the ideas.

26 ProMayaLiberal  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:17:34pm

re: #22 yasharki

On that note, didn't much of the Western World go through this Anarchistic phase a century ago? I'm pretty sure McKinley was assassinated by an anarchist.

27 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:20:10pm

re: #26 ProLifeLiberal

On that note, didn't much of the Western World go through this Anarchistic phase a century ago? I'm pretty sure McKinley was assassinated by an anarchist.

Very good. Gold star for your.

Saccho & Vanzetti were anarchists arrested in 1921 for murder during an armed robbery and executed after their trial.

Now, whether they were actually guilty is a favorite pastime debate of historians, along with the question of Lizzie Borden's guilt.

28 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:22:54pm

re: #27 EmmmieG

Very good. Gold star for your.

Saccho & Vanzetti were anarchists arrested in 1921 for murder during an armed robbery and executed after their trial.

Now, whether they were actually guilty is a favorite pastime debate of historians, along with the question of Lizzie Borden's guilt.

should we be profiling for anarchists?

29 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:02pm

I have a feeling lots more arrests are on their way, and that the dike will burst and a flood of warrants will spill across the land after the removal of this dutch boy.

30 jordash1212  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:14pm

I doubt this 16 year old was the mastermind of a massive DDoS operation. Let me know when they make some serious arrests.

31 darthstar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:16pm

Nine thousand. We upped our offer by 10k to help make the sale that much easier on the sellers, and they came back with a counter for nine more. Fuckers. But that's only about 27 bucks a month over 30 years, so what the hell...still, I feel reamed. Oh, and there's a second bid they're giving a counter to as well. If they choose that fucker, I'll be really pissed.

32 Ojoe  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:23:38pm

re: #27 EmmmieG

Lizzie Borden took an ax
And gave her mother 40 whacks
And when she saw what she had done
She gave her father 41

33 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:24:17pm

re: #29 SpaceJesus

I have a feeling lots more arrests are on their way, and that the dike will burst and a flood of warrants will spill across the land after the removal of this dutch boy.

I will consider that a prophesy

34 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:25:18pm

re: #33 brookly red

I will consider that a prophesy


that's what he gets for clogging those websites

35 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:26:49pm
The first to go down is a Dutch 16-year-old boy, who has been arrested by the Dutch High Tech Crime Team and is being held for interrogation.

Fascist bastards! Don't they know that hacking into websites is now a protected form of free speech?!?11ty
/

36 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:28:31pm

re: #34 SpaceJesus


I apologize for that

37 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:29:09pm

re: #26 ProLifeLiberal

On that note, didn't much of the Western World go through this Anarchistic phase a century ago? I'm pretty sure McKinley was assassinated by an anarchist.

this is a complicated question. there were theoretical sorts of anarchists, like baukunin, who postulated a sort of libertarian paradise of voluntary association, but didn't do much about it. there were also "revolutionaries of the deed", both anarchist as well as communist, who hoped to spark a violent revolution much the way that the oklahoma city bomber did - except with more socialistic ends in mind. these "revolutionaries of the deed" were the ones who assasinated public figures or set off the occasional bomb

but anarchists and other assasins were a background feature to the socialist agitation of the day, which feature activities such as newspapers, speeches, marches and strikes, and whose program from the 1870s through WWI included such radical ideas as no more than 60 hours week to be required of workers by employers, a minimum wage, laws against child labor, and the right to unionize

it bears mentioning that all of the above were condemned by the conservatives of the day as sure to destroy business and lead to the downfall of the american economy

38 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:29:22pm

re: #35 Slumbering Behemoth

Fascist bastards! Don't they know that hacking into websites is now a protected form of free speech?!?11ty
/

The first to go down is a Dutch 16-year-old boy, who has been arrested by the Dutch High Tech Crime Team and is being held for interrogation.

/Uh-oh, the Dutch? they might cheese board him...

39 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:29:26pm

re: #30 jordash1212

I doubt this 16 year old was the mastermind of a massive DDoS operation. Let me know when they make some serious arrests.

I suspect we'll see some more arrests over the next week or so. It probably won't take much to make these idiots knock it off.

40 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:30:43pm

re: #19 ozbloke

I want to share another thought.

The US govt. had months of lead time.
They knew the documents were to be released.
They had ample time to know the whereabouts of Assange.

If the govt. believed they had a case that would stand, he would/could/should have been arrested on day one of the release.

Its a personal view, I got no links.

It is their inability to have a case that makes them phone around the corps, and point out that they should read there own terms of service.

Again no links...

Links?

41 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:31:35pm

re: #39 Killgore Trout

I suspect we'll see some more arrests over the next week or so. It probably won't take much to make these idiots knock it off.

/I always knew you were a "law & order" conservative! :P

42 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:31:39pm

re: #36 SpaceJesus

I apologize for that

Can I redeem my upding then?
Tilting at windmills here.

43 SpaceJesus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:32:27pm

re: #38 brookly red


no no no, they'll use mayo

44 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:32:29pm

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Links?

Jah, bratz or kinder?

45 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:33:29pm

re: #43 SpaceJesus

no no no, they'll use mayo

on his fries? oh the horror!

46 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:35:11pm

re: #41 brookly red

/I always knew you were a "law & order" conservative! :P

Heh.

47 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:36:33pm

re: #40 Walter L. Newton

Links?

Use yer googlefu, heres one, and another

48 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:37:43pm

Links?

Rechts!

49 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:38:09pm

re: #28 brookly red

should we be profiling for anarchists?

In this case, we would have to raid the pizzerias and the nicer Italian restaurants for recent Italian immigrants with radical ideas, so I vote no.

50 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:39:30pm

re: #49 EmmmieG

In this case, we would have to raid the pizzerias and the nicer Italian restaurants for recent Italian immigrants with radical ideas, so I vote no.

that is a set up & I am not going for it.

51 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:40:48pm

OT--El nino is really pounding us here in the Pacific NW.

Normally, kids from here don't even acknowledge rain. You point out that they're being rained on and they look at you blankly.

My daughter took an umbrella to school today. Six kids asked to share it with her while waiting for the bus.

(The geniuses who designed the school made the bus lanes long enough for about a third of the buses, so my daughter gets home from a school I can drive to in 5 minutes half an hour after school ends.)

52 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:41:32pm

re: #50 brookly red

that is a set up & I am not going for it.

PIZZA ANARCHY!!!

PINEAPPLES!!!

CHERRIES ON PIZZA!!!

CARAMELED APPLES ON PIZZA!!

53 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:43:00pm

re: #25 Ojoe

He bought in to the ideas.

True enough, but I doubt a 16 year old kid had enough education to look critically at such ideas, making him a soft tool, not a mastermind...

54 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:44:13pm

re: #51 EmmmieG

OT--El nino is really pounding us here in the Pacific NW.

Normally, kids from here don't even acknowledge rain. You point out that they're being rained on and they look at you blankly.

My daughter took an umbrella to school today. Six kids asked to share it with her while waiting for the bus.

(The geniuses who designed the school made the bus lanes long enough for about a third of the buses, so my daughter gets home from a school I can drive to in 5 minutes half an hour after school ends.)

It's really coming down out there. I just looked at the radar an it's not going to let up anytime soon. We might get some flooding out of this.

55 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:45:14pm

re: #53 yasharki

True enough, but I doubt a 16 year old kid had enough education to look critically at such ideas, making him a soft tool, not a mastermind...

Tragic, but he still committed a serious crime, just like a kid who robs a liquor store or steals a car.

56 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:46:23pm

re: #52 EmmmieG

PIZZA ANARCHY!!!

PINEAPPLES!!!

CHERRIES ON PIZZA!!!

CARAMELED APPLES ON PIZZA!!


I have been hoarding canned goods & ammo in anticipation of this day...

57 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:48:00pm

re: #54 Killgore Trout

It's really coming down out there. I just looked at the radar an it's not going to let up anytime soon. We might get some flooding out of this.

We had some friends who were locked out of their house in Vernonia last time.

I hope Vernonia gets spared this time.

58 William Barnett-Lewis  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:49:47pm

"Round up the usual suspects"

They'll arrest some low hanging fruit, mostly young idiots who don't really know what they're doing. They will not touch the ringleaders. At most, I'd bet on about 20 arrests total and all will be like this kid. Though they'll claim he's terribly dangerous and high up the food chain. And they'll claim we're all so much safer for it.

Meanwhile the real threat will remain undiminished and pushed even further underground.

59 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:51:20pm

re: #58 wlewisiii

"Round up the usual suspects"

They'll arrest some low hanging fruit, mostly young idiots who don't really know what they're doing. They will not touch the ringleaders. At most, I'd bet on about 20 arrests total and all will be like this kid. Though they'll claim he's terribly dangerous and high up the food chain. And they'll claim we're all so much safer for it.

Meanwhile the real threat will remain undiminished and pushed even further underground.

Send out the black helicopters.

60 elizajane  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:51:49pm

re: #53 yasharki

True enough, but I doubt a 16 year old kid had enough education to look critically at such ideas, making him a soft tool, not a mastermind...

Although I tend to side with Dutch people too, isn't this a bit of soft prejudice? The 16-year-old Palestinian who lobs a stone gets full credit for knowing what he's doing. Why? He's been subjected to a lot more brain-washing than any 16-year-old Dutch kid. He has more of a real stake in what he's fighting for: does that make him more, or less, responsible for his actions?

61 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:52:12pm

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Send out the black helicopters.

cyber ninjas...

62 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:53:45pm

re: #60 elizajane

Although I tend to side with Dutch people too, isn't this a bit of soft prejudice? The 16-year-old Palestinian who lobs a stone gets full credit for knowing what he's doing. Why? He's been subjected to a lot more brain-washing than any 16-year-old Dutch kid. He has more of a real stake in what he's fighting for: does that make him more, or less, responsible for his actions?


in NY we charge 16 year olds as adults...

63 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:54:41pm

re: #59 Walter L. Newton

Send out the black helicopters.



Well at least this time you were right and you had the good sense to give up yeah when others there might of hung in so just nobody touch me I know what I'm doing. Can I destroy that for you ma'am? Can I destroy that for you, mister? It looks good on you it looks good on you but these things look better broken. Hello, Helicopter Well I hope this time we were right 'cause it looks a little worse every day there's another one flying tonight and I hope it don't make it I know what we're doing.
Can I destroy that for you ma'am? Can I destroy that for you, mister? It looks good on you it looks good on you but these things look better broken. Hello Helicopter

Youtube Video
64 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:57:27pm

re: #62 brookly red

in NY we charge 16 year olds as adults...

when i was growing up in ny you could get a drink at a bar if you were old enough to shave

65 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:59:11pm

re: #64 engineer dog

when i was growing up in ny you could get a drink at a bar if you were old enough to shave

and just for that reason we didn't shave...

66 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:59:17pm

re: #63 WindUpBird


Well at least this time you were right and you had the good sense to give up yeah when others there might of hung in so just nobody touch me I know what I'm doing. Can I destroy that for you ma'am? Can I destroy that for you, mister? It looks good on you it looks good on you but these things look better broken. Hello, Helicopter Well I hope this time we were right 'cause it looks a little worse every day there's another one flying tonight and I hope it don't make it I know what we're doing.
Can I destroy that for you ma'am? Can I destroy that for you, mister? It looks good on you it looks good on you but these things look better broken. Hello Helicopter


[Video]

You're really subversive.

67 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 4:59:21pm

I remember being 16 in front of my computer, in the early 90's, calling bulletin boards on my Atari 1040ST with my 2400 baud modem, binder of modem control commands next to me, compuserve binder on the shelf, Iron Maiden and Queensryche posters to my left and right, stack of 3 1/2" floppies full of Atari ST games that i sure didn't pay for.

I could have been this kid, I definitely would have been a channer, and I definitely would have been on the side of wikileaks.

68 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:00:25pm

re: #66 Walter L. Newton

You're really subversive.

Not really, I just really like OSI, the tone on that record comes from Matheos' PRS guitar, detuned down to something insane like C sharp, and then a whole bunch of Kevin Moore's sampling/soft synth wizardry

Just made me think of it is all ;-)

69 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:01:09pm

re: #64 engineer dog

when i was growing up in ny you could get a drink at a bar if you were old enough to shave

I grew up in Brooklyn... no one at the neighborhood bars care a whit if my father ordered a beer and gave it to me. Of course, at 11, I didn't sit on a bar stool and chat it up with the other patrons, but the point is, if he grab a short beer and took it over to a booth where I was sitting, reading comics or something, no one batted an eye.

70 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:01:10pm

re: #37 engineer dog

this is a complicated question. there were theoretical sorts of anarchists, like baukunin, who postulated a sort of libertarian paradise of voluntary association, but didn't do much about it. there were also "revolutionaries of the deed", both anarchist as well as communist, who hoped to spark a violent revolution much the way that the oklahoma city bomber did - except with more socialistic ends in mind. these "revolutionaries of the deed" were the ones who assasinated public figures or set off the occasional bomb

but anarchists and other assasins were a background feature to the socialist agitation of the day, which feature activities such as newspapers, speeches, marches and strikes, and whose program from the 1870s through WWI included such radical ideas as no more than 60 hours week to be required of workers by employers, a minimum wage, laws against child labor, and the right to unionize

it bears mentioning that all of the above were condemned by the conservatives of the day as sure to destroy business and lead to the downfall of the american economy

Bakunin and Marx never engaged in revolutionary or terrorist activities, they just put their thoughts on paper. It's the "professional revolutionaries", the likes of Ul'yanin, Stalin, Trotsky, etc who thought it appropriate to apply such wildly utopian ideas in practice. However they never really cared about social equality, work hours, or any of that, they craved ultimate power, and advocated use of any means to achieve their goals, dressing their personal desires into socialist/communist/whatever candywraps.... No matter how much I hate and despise these bastards, I have to admit they were smart enough to not only enslave their own countrymen on their "ideals", they managed to infect a considerable part of our planet with them...

71 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:02:00pm

re: #67 WindUpBird

I remember being 16 in front of my computer, in the early 90's, calling bulletin boards on my Atari 1040ST with my 2400 baud modem, binder of modem control commands next to me, compuserve binder on the shelf, Iron Maiden and Queensryche posters to my left and right, stack of 3 1/2" floppies full of Atari ST games that i sure didn't pay for.

I could have been this kid, I definitely would have been a channer, and I definitely would have been on the side of wikileaks.

Me too. I did some phone phreaking when I was a kid.

72 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:03:09pm

re: #68 WindUpBird

Not really, I just really like OSI, the tone on that record comes from Matheos' PRS guitar, detuned down to something insane like C sharp, and then a whole bunch of Kevin Moore's sampling/soft synth wizardry

Just made me think of it is all ;-)

I thought it was going to be something Bowie when I first heard the intro. A minor and I think just dropping a note down to a diminished.

73 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:03:14pm

re: #71 Killgore Trout

Me too. I did some phone phreaking when I was a kid.

You were officially WAY cooler than me! The most illegal thing I did was swapping games on BBSes :D

74 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:03:45pm

re: #72 Walter L. Newton

I thought it was going to be something Bowie when I first heard the intro. A minor and I think just dropping a note down to a diminished.

it's a cool project, basically two prog-rock/metal guys who got tired of their genre

75 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:03:48pm

re: #73 WindUpBird

You were officially WAY cooler than me! The most illegal thing I did was swapping games on BBSes :D

You're really subversive :)

76 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:04:36pm

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tragic, but he still committed a serious crime, just like a kid who robs a liquor store or steals a car.

Yes, you're right, hi did commit a crime and has to face the punishment, however I don't think you can compare confused script-kiddie to a gta perp...

77 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:04:38pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I grew up in Brooklyn... no one at the neighborhood bars care a whit if my father ordered a beer and gave it to me. Of course, at 11, I didn't sit on a bar stool and chat it up with the other patrons, but the point is, if he grab a short beer and took it over to a booth where I was sitting, reading comics or something, no one batted an eye.

In Oregon, it is completely legal to provide your child with alcohol. Now, I imagine if you let them get drunk, you'll be talking to DHS.

(Yes, I had to look this up. I had no other reason to know.)

78 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:04:38pm

re: #69 Walter L. Newton

I grew up in Brooklyn... no one at the neighborhood bars care a whit if my father ordered a beer and gave it to me. Of course, at 11, I didn't sit on a bar stool and chat it up with the other patrons, but the point is, if he grab a short beer and took it over to a booth where I was sitting, reading comics or something, no one batted an eye.

Brooklyn is a special place...

79 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:02pm

re: #75 Walter L. Newton

You're really subversive :)

Power to the people, and by people, I mean me, because I couldn't afford to pay $65 for Xenon 2 or Turrican

80 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:23pm

re: #76 yasharki

Yes, you're right, hi did commit a crime and has to face the punishment, however I don't think you can compare confused script-kiddie to a gta perp...

You're right. A hacker has the potential to do a lot more damage.

81 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:28pm

re: #70 yasharki

yeah - i was thinking of the american scene. you guys in russia played a slightly different ball game...

82 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:05:38pm

re: #77 EmmmieG

In Oregon, it is completely legal to provide your child with alcohol. Now, I imagine if you let them get drunk, you'll be talking to DHS.

(Yes, I had to look this up. I had no other reason to know.)

I knew that! :D

But I am intimately aware with the OLCC, being a drunk :D

83 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:09pm

re: #74 WindUpBird

it's a cool project, basically two prog-rock/metal guys who got tired of their genre

I don't listen to ANY music anymore. Just stopped totally, not even my first love Broadway (not really impress with most of the musical theatre I've seen or heard in the last 10 years, aside from a few gems like Urinetown).

The only taste of contemporary music I get now a days is the occasional like from one of you dudes on LGF.

84 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:19pm

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Tragic, but he still committed a serious crime, just like a kid who robs a liquor store or steals a car.

yeah, i don't actually consider harrassing web servers to be the same as a violent crime :/

85 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:06:20pm

Gee, as a kid the worst thing I did was a little exterior decorating.

86 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:07:07pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I don't listen to ANY music anymore. Just stopped totally, not even my first love Broadway (not really impress with most of the musical theatre I've seen or heard in the last 10 years, aside from a few gems like Urinetown).

The only taste of contemporary music I get now a days is the occasional like from one of you dudes on LGF.

occasional LINK from...

87 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:07:49pm

This is actually the most interesting thing I've encountered recently.

Being pretty uncool myself, everyone else probably knew all about them.

Youtube Video
88 Obdicut  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:08:10pm

re: #84 WindUpBird

Robbing a liquor store and stealing a car aren't violent either.

It's not the same. It's still criminal-- especially because hackers use DDOS attempts to also penetrate security.

89 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:08:16pm

re: #83 Walter L. Newton

I don't listen to ANY music anymore. Just stopped totally, not even my first love Broadway (not really impress with most of the musical theatre I've seen or heard in the last 10 years, aside from a few gems like Urinetown).

The only taste of contemporary music I get now a days is the occasional like from one of you dudes on LGF.

bummer, I'd go insane without music, I play some form of instrument every day, it's probably the only thing keeping me from descending into madness :D

I'm sort of an outsider with music, within the very narrow genres I like, I know a great deal, almost to the point of it being a fetish, but outside those genres, I'm sorta clueless.

90 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:08:40pm

re: #85 EmmmieG

Gee, as a kid the worst thing I did was a little exterior decorating.

The worst thing I ever did as a teenager was street racing, that was a dumb move -_-

91 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:09:16pm

re: #85 EmmmieG

Gee, as a kid the worst thing I did was a little exterior decorating.

With rolls of toilet paper?

If so, me too. And I was good at it, too. Except for once.

92 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:10:35pm

re: #90 WindUpBird

The worst thing I ever did as a teenager was street racing, that was a dumb move -_-

the terms of my release prevent me from discussing my activities...

93 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:10:51pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Well, I'm thinking of breaking and entering as being sorta pseudo-violent in the sense that you're damaging physical property, especially in the sense that you could get yourself shot for robbing a liquor store (they all have bars where I am!) if this kid was the ringleader or if he truly was The Guy bringing down a website, that's one thing

94 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:11:09pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

With rolls of toilet paper?

If so, me too. And I was good at it, too. Except for once.

Yup.

I deeply regret we never forked anyone's lawn.

Once I spent the night at my friend's house. We woke up and the house was a little more white and pulpy on the outside. Her parents walked out and looked one block down to my house. What do you know? So was mine.

Okay, girls it looks like this one was for you. Go clean it up.

95 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:11:39pm

re: #85 EmmmieG

Gee, as a kid the worst thing I did was a little exterior decorating.

I use to traffic in human pituitary glands. Was that wrong, should I not have done that?
/

96 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:04pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Robbing a liquor store and stealing a car aren't violent either.

It's not the same. It's still criminal-- especially because hackers use DDOS attempts to also penetrate security.

I agree it's criminal, and certainly the kid should be arrested, and it should be stopped! The arrest itself has probably put the kid into a panic attack.

97 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:35pm

re: #95 goddamnedfrank

I use to traffic in human pituitary glands. Was that wrong, should I not have done that?
/

Well, we're not exactly endangered, are we?

Now, if it were white rhino glands, that would be truly horrible.

/////

98 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:12:58pm

re: #95 goddamnedfrank

I use to traffic in human pituitary glands. Was that wrong, should I not have done that?
/


wait... were the guy with the chop sticks handing out money?

99 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:13:02pm

re: #81 engineer dog

yeah - i was thinking of the american scene. you guys in russia played a slightly different ball game...

The "you" part is at least 5 generations prior from myself being born, and I think it's USSR you're referring to, not Russia, just like you're referring to USA, not America.

100 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:13:28pm

re: #91 wrenchwench

With rolls of toilet paper?

If so, me too. And I was good at it, too. Except for once.

I never Tped a house, because it grossed me out to think of it. :D

101 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:14:06pm

re: #100 WindUpBird

I never Tped a house, because it grossed me out to think of it. :D

Um, just to let you know, dude, you're supposed to use new toilet paper.

Not quite so gross.

102 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:14:09pm

re: #95 goddamnedfrank

I use to traffic in human pituitary glands. Was that wrong, should I not have done that?
/

and ALL the times he sold dope, disguised as a nun!

103 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:14:21pm

re: #89 WindUpBird

bummer, I'd go insane without music, I play some form of instrument every day, it's probably the only thing keeping me from descending into madness :D

I'm sort of an outsider with music, within the very narrow genres I like, I know a great deal, almost to the point of it being a fetish, but outside those genres, I'm sorta clueless.

I have a keyboard sitting right behind me, occasionally turn around and play it. Played part time professionally for 12 years, had a gig or two almost every week. But into the 90's, after coming to Colorado, not playing anymore, and getting more domestic, I just drifted away from actively paying attention to popular (or unpopular) music.

I still play a mean accordion.

104 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:14:39pm

re: #101 EmmmieG

Um, just to let you know, dude, you're supposed to use new toilet paper.

Not quite so gross.

nono, I mean the idea of the TP getting wet and goopy on someone's house and someone having to clean it up. That's what grossed me out.

105 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:15:42pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

I still play a mean accordion.

Is there any other kind?

I like accordions.

106 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:15:49pm

re: #103 Walter L. Newton

I have a keyboard sitting right behind me, occasionally turn around and play it. Played part time professionally for 12 years, had a gig or two almost every week. But into the 90's, after coming to Colorado, not playing anymore, and getting more domestic, I just drifted away from actively paying attention to popular (or unpopular) music.

I still play a mean accordion.

Accordion looks incredibly difficult o_o

107 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:16:14pm

we didn't have a High School Reunion... down by law.

108 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:16:20pm

re: #105 wrenchwench

Is there any other kind?

I like accordions.

Abney Park rocked the accordion at the last show of theirs I saw, like a steampunk Gogol Bordello

109 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:16:30pm

re: #106 WindUpBird

Accordion looks incredibly difficult o_o

And they pinch my man boobs.

110 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:17:56pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Robbing a liquor store and stealing a car aren't violent either.

It's not the same. It's still criminal-- especially because hackers use DDOS attempts to also penetrate security.

A 16 year old hacker has the potential to cause a thousand times more damage than a 16 year old burglar.

111 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:18:13pm

This is bizarre...

Image: 1377ginger.gif

113 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:19:11pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton

And they pinch my man boobs.

Did I roger the thread with that remark?

114 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:20:15pm

accordion to who?

115 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:20:38pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A 16 year old hacker has the potential to cause a thousand times more damage than a 16 year old burglar.

so how about the 14 year old assassin in Mexico (OK he was US born)

116 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:20:50pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A 16 year old hacker has the potential to cause a thousand times more damage than a 16 year old burglar.

Well, depends. People die during robberies. People arm themselves for robberies. Nobody died because a website went down.

117 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:21:40pm

re: #113 Walter L. Newton

Did I roger the thread with that remark?

actually, i was about to complain about how fucked up my back is and how I am acutely aware of it whenever I play guitar

118 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:21:49pm

Gives new meaning to "Everywhere you want to be."

119 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:22:39pm

Okay, dinner must actually happen.

Later gators amphibians.*

*At this rate, this is what I will be soon.

120 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:23:10pm

re: #88 Obdicut

Robbing a liquor store and stealing a car aren't violent either.

It's not the same. It's still criminal-- especially because hackers use DDOS attempts to also penetrate security.

Denial of Service is an act of preventing packets from reaching a given destination, or being emitted from it, it may but doesn't have to be an act of "penetrating security". It can be done via overwhelming a host with traffic, rerouting, or possibly dropping packets if you can become a mitm, three possibilities which can be done without penetrating target's security measures...

121 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:25:15pm

re: #120 yasharki

Denial of Service is an act of preventing packets from reaching a given destination, or being emitted from it, it may but doesn't have to be an act of "penetrating security". It can be done via overwhelming a host with traffic, rerouting, or possibly dropping packets if you can become a mitm, three possibilities which can be done without penetrating target's security measures...

Can you name any country and law that would suggest a DOS attack is illegal?

122 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:25:21pm

A hilarious article from Slate....
Most scientists in this country are Democrats. That's a problem.

A Pew Research Center Poll from July 2009 showed that only around 6 percent of U.S. scientists are Republicans;...

As a first step, leaders of the scientific community should be willing to investigate and discuss the issue. They will, of course, be loath to do so because it threatens their most cherished myths of a pure science insulated from dirty partisanship. In lieu of any real effort to understand and grapple with the politics of science, we can expect calls for more "science literacy" as public confidence begins to wane. But the issue here is legitimacy, not literacy. A democratic society needs Republican scientists.

123 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:26:49pm

Talk about your revenge plotters: he won't do it of course, but I told you this campaign was gonna be some fun.
[Link: dailycaller.com...]

124 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:27:57pm

re: #121 ozbloke

Can you name any country and law that would suggest a DOS attack is illegal?

THE NATIONAL INFORMATION INFRASTRUCTURE PROTECTION ACT OF 1996

125 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:28:00pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

color me shocked, most scientists are democrats :D

126 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:28:29pm

re: #109 Walter L. Newton
/Again with the visuals, Walter..../

127 Killgore Trout  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:28:37pm

re: #121 ozbloke

Can you name any country and law that would suggest a DOS attack is illegal?


Here
In the Police and Justice Act 2006, the United Kingdom specifically outlawed denial-of-service attacks and set a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.[43]

In the US, there can be a serious federal crime under the National Information Infrastructure Protection Act of 1996 with penalties that include years of imprisonment. Many other countries have similar laws

128 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:29:12pm

re: #121 ozbloke

Can you name any country and law that would suggest a DOS attack is illegal?

I'm not at all familiar with any country's federal laws regarding internet traffic, but I think most terms-of-service contracts would make DOS illegal.

129 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:30:26pm

re: #125 WindUpBird

color me shocked, most scientists are democrats :D

well no snark but it makes sense... Ds what could be? & Rs what it is...

makes perfect sense.

130 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:32:32pm

re: #129 brookly red

well no snark but it makes sense... Ds what could be? & Rs what it is...

makes perfect sense.

Er... science has everything to do with what "is."

131 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:34:56pm

re: #130 JasonA

Er... science has everything to do with what "is."



well yes, but the what if factor is needed to get a grant...

132 darthstar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:35:43pm

Hey everyone...forgive my earlier bitch up thread...I just find little snippets of greed to be a pain in the ass. I feel better now, though...bought a bottle of Dry Fly bourbon for the missus and a nice piece of flank steak to go with braised baby artichokes for dinner. Even bought the dogs a half-pound of ground to add to their dinner...if our offer is accepted, we'll be 100 yards from the beach for the next 30 years or so...that's not such a bad deal when you think of it.

Peace.

133 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:35:47pm

re: #124 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Hi Kragar,

I did a search on the link for 'denial' and 'dos' neither term appeared.
I would usually read the link provided, but I'm flat out with other stuff at the moment.

My point is, although ISP's may have TOS's that reflect that their network can't be used in that way, many if not most countries do not have laws that specifically ban DOS attacks.

134 darthstar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:36:50pm

Oh, and Jan Brewer, Governor of Arizona, is a rag. Fuck you, Jan, and all of the surgeons who have turned your face into a claymation nightmare.

135 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:37:38pm

re: #133 oz bloke

Hi Kr agar,

I did a search on the link for 'denial' and 'dos' neither term appeared.
I would usually read the link provided, but I'm flat out with other stuff at the moment.

My point is, although Esp's may have Torsi's that reflect that their network can't be used in that way, many if not most countries do not have laws that specifically ban DOS attacks.


did you search vandalism?

136 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:38:04pm

re: #133 ozbloke

Hi Kragar,

I did a search on the link for 'denial' and 'dos' neither term appeared.
I would usually read the link provided, but I'm flat out with other stuff at the moment.

My point is, although ISP's may have TOS's that reflect that their network can't be used in that way, many if not most countries do not have laws that specifically ban DOS attacks.

To sum up, its a major crime in the US.

137 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:38:14pm

re: #132 darthstar

Hey everyone...forgive my earlier bitch up thread...I just find little snippets of greed to be a pain in the ass. I feel better now, though...bought a bottle of Dry Fly bourbon for the missus and a nice piece of flank steak to go with braised baby artichokes for dinner. Even bought the dogs a half-pound of ground to add to their dinner...if our offer is accepted, we'll be 100 yards from the beach for the next 30 years or so...that's not such a bad deal when you think of it.

Peace.

10 yards after the ocean rises.

138 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:38:27pm

re: #127 Killgore Trout

Here
In the Police and Justice Act 2006, the United Kingdom specifically outlawed denial-of-service attacks and set a maximum penalty of 10 years in prison.[43]

In the US, there can be a serious federal crime under the National Information Infrastructure Protection Act of 1996 with penalties that include years of imprisonment. Many other countries have similar laws

Thanks Killgore,
What happens when the origin of an attack is not from within the country that receives the attack?

The world has no easy solves for these issues.

139 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:12pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout
Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/

140 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:22pm

re: #134 darthstar

Oh, and Jan Brewer, Governor of Arizona, is a rag. Fuck you, Jan, and all of the surgeons who have turned your face into a claymation nightmare.

Not a very nice remark, bro.

141 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:38pm

re: #132 darthstar

Hey everyone...forgive my earlier bitch up thread...I just find little snippets of greed to be a pain in the ass. I feel better now, though...bought a bottle of Dry Fly bourbon for the missus and a nice piece of flank steak to go with braised baby artichokes for dinner. Even bought the dogs a half-pound of ground to add to their dinner...if our offer is accepted, we'll be 100 yards from the beach for the next 30 years or so...that's not such a bad deal when you think of it.

Peace.


it would appear you are not taxed enough :)

142 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:41pm

re: #128 yasharki

I'm not at all familiar with any country's federal laws regarding internet traffic, but I think most terms-of-service contracts would make DOS illegal.

Thank you yasharki,

I think we both know that an ISP's TOS is not the law of a country.

143 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:39:53pm

re: #122 Killgore Trout

A hilarious article from Slate...
Most scientists in this country are Democrats. That's a problem.


They come so close to understanding, but toss the facts out.

Does that mean that Democrats are more than twice as likely to accept and understand the scientific truth of the matter? And that Republicans are dominated by scientifically illiterate yahoos and corporate shills willing to sacrifice the planet for short-term economic and political gain?

Nah....couldn't be that. //

Here's the facts: Give 'em a good edjumacation, and they'll run from the Republicans as fast as they can.

144 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:40:30pm

re: #135 brookly red

did you search vandalism?

I will if you can prove it applies.

145 sizzleRI  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:41:15pm

re: #139 tradewind

WOW. Just, wow.

146 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:41:42pm

re: #144 ozbloke

I will if you can prove it applies.

good grief...

147 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:42:19pm

re: #133 ozbloke

Hi Kragar,

I did a search on the link for 'denial' and 'dos' neither term appeared.
I would usually read the link provided, but I'm flat out with other stuff at the moment.

My point is, although ISP's may have TOS's that reflect that their network can't be used in that way, many if not most countries do not have laws that specifically ban DOS attacks.

I think it's because it isn't very easy to define a DOS attack, which can look like legitimate traffic, on top of that DDoS is international by nature making it hard if not impossible to prosecute.

148 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:42:31pm

re: #143 wrenchwench

They come so close to understanding, but toss the facts out.

Nah...couldn't be that. //

Here's the facts: Give 'em a good edjumacation, and they'll run from the Republicans as fast as they can.

I can give you one more piece of data...

My dad is a Research Chemist for the FDA...

He's a Dem.

149 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:42:34pm

re: #139 tradewind

you have a pretty peculiar conception of scientists and what they do, d00d

150 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:43:18pm

Here is a list of Major US cybercrimes, what they attacked, dollars lost, etc

[Link: www.justice.gov...]

151 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:43:21pm

re: #145 sizzleRI
Just wow?
Such a letdown.
Get a running start..... I know you can do it.

152 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:43:42pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

To sum up, its a major crime in the US.

Which would be relevant if the dos attempt originated within the US
or
If it originated from a country that would work with the US, and the issue was so large that the US would make an issue of that crime.

153 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:44:53pm

re: #149 engineer dog

you have a pretty peculiar conception of scientists and what they do, d00d

Proves quite clearly that the fans of the GOP are anti-intellectual. And has no problem degrading those who are.

154 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:44:54pm

re: #151 tradewind

Just wow?
Such a letdown.
Get a running start... I know you can do it.

You are an ass.

I'm sure Jamesfirecat's dad and my two Democrat scientist brothers are much too nice to call you that, though.

155 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:45:23pm

re: #139 tradewind

Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/

What makes you think this is only half sarc Trade?

Do you have any proof that being a scientist is like this?

Are you one?

156 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:45:53pm

re: #146 brookly red

good grief...

Can you site a case where someone who participates in a DOS attack has been successfully charged with vandalism?

157 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:46:13pm

re: #155 jamesfirecat

What makes you think this is only half sarc Trade?

Do you have any proof that being a scientist is like this?

Are you one?

burn the witch! burn the witch!

158 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:46:46pm

re: #139 tradewind

Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/

You know nothing.

159 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:47:59pm

re: #156 ozbloke

Can you site a case where someone who participates in a DOS attack has been successfully charged with vandalism?


no I can't, and no I don't care... its like that.

160 elizajane  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:48:11pm

re: #110 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A 16 year old hacker has the potential to cause a thousand times more damage than a 16 year old burglar.

But the question isn't about doing damage; it's about whether this is somehow a political act. Presumably this Dutch kid felt he was acting in a greater cause (Wikileaks) in some sense. That's why I compared what he did to a Palestinian adolescent throwing stones and asked, who is more responsible for his actions? It's different from robbery or ordinary vandalism. Do you say, the Dutch kid didn't know what he was doing (beyond ordinary vandalism) but the Palestinian kid does know (beyond common rock-throwing)? Why?

161 sizzleRI  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:48:22pm

re: #151 tradewind

Are you a researcher? Have you ever participated in any scientific research? I am curious what drives your antipathy to the current system.

162 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:48:42pm

re: #156 ozbloke

Can you site a case where someone who participates in a DOS attack has been successfully charged with vandalism?

"Botherder" Dealt Record Prison Sentence for Selling and Spreading Malicious Computer Code

Concluding the first prosecution of its kind in the United States, a wellknown member of the "botmaster underground" was sentenced this afternoon to nearly five years in prison for profiting from his use of "botnets" == armies of compromised computers == that he used to launch destructive attacks, to send huge quantities of spam across the Internet and to receive surreptitious installations of adware.

Jeanson James Ancheta, 21, of Downey, California, was sentenced to 57 months in federal prison by United States District Judge R. Gary Klausner in Los Angeles. During the sentencing hearing, Judge Klausner characterized Ancheta's crimes as "extensive, serious and sophisticated." The prison term is the longest known sentence for a defendant who spread computer viruses.

Ancheta pleaded guilty in January to conspiring to violate the Computer Fraud Abuse Act, conspiring to violate the CAN-SPAM Act, causing damage to computers used by the federal government in national defense, and accessing protected computers without authorization to commit fraud. When he pleaded guilty, Ancheta admitted using computer servers he controlled to transmit malicious code over the Internet to scan for and exploit vulnerable computers. Ancheta caused thousands of compromised computers to be directed to an Internet Relay Chat channel, where they were instructed to scan for other computers vulnerable to similar infection, and to remain "zombies" vulnerable to further unauthorized accesses.

163 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:48:54pm

re: #147 yasharki

I think it's because it isn't very easy to define a DOS attack, which can look like legitimate traffic, on top of that DDoS is international by nature making it hard if not impossible to prosecute.

We agree 100%

You can participate in a DOS attack with a few lines of code.
Unless you stored a copy of the script it would be difficult to prove the intent was DOS.
If your machine was compromised, in this era I think you could have success defending yourself as unaware.

Its a big ask...

164 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:49:12pm

re: #139 tradewind

Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/

i take it your copy of "A Brief History of Time" is particularly well thumbed then.................

166 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:50:13pm

re: #159 brookly red

no I can't, and no I don't care... its like that.

Hey, I don't mind that, if your not interested, or don't want a reply don't reply to my comments.

167 wrenchwench  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:51:00pm

Click my nic to see my Pages. I have two nice musical entries today, amidst the blood and gore. Something for almost everyone.

Later, lizards.

168 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:51:17pm

re: #165 Stanley Sea

Hey James! Remember the chart you were talking about comparing Obama's approval with Saint Ronnie? Here 'tis

OH NOES!!!!!!!!!

Obama more popular than Reagan at comparable points in their terms!!!!!!!!!!!!

169 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:51:31pm

re: #160 elizajane

But the question isn't about doing damage; it's about whether this is somehow a political act. Presumably this Dutch kid felt he was acting in a greater cause (Wikileaks) in some sense. That's why I compared what he did to a Palestinian adolescent throwing stones and asked, who is more responsible for his actions? It's different from robbery or ordinary vandalism. Do you say, the Dutch kid didn't know what he was doing (beyond ordinary vandalism) but the Palestinian kid does know (beyond common rock-throwing)? Why?

I say they're both responsible and both misguided.

170 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:52:02pm

re: #166 ozbloke

Hey, I don't mind that, if your not interested, or don't want a reply don't reply to my comments.


as you like it... I can't even remember the original point.

171 jaunte  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:53:30pm

re: #139 tradewind

...a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results...
... strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.


Are you interviewing for a job with the Discovery Institute?

172 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:54:12pm

re: #149 engineer dog
Sigh.
First of all, I definitely added a hedge, but you would have had to see it, I suppose.
I'm certainly not a scientist, but my view of those who choose it as a vocation is not actually quite as global as your assessment.
Must confess though, that glimpses into the mindsets of some posters who profess science as real-life avocation might have influenced my opinion.
Maybe.

173 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:54:33pm

Whew. Just went for a short walk. So many cars with single occupants. No bikes and no pedestrians. I thought Denverites wanted to stop global warming. Guess not.

175 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:56:35pm

pardon me if I miss the Inquisition, I gotta get some grub...

176 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:56:39pm

re: #162 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

"Botherder" Dealt Record Prison Sentence for Selling and Spreading Malicious Computer Code

Kragar,

I thank you for the time you spend finding this info to discuss with me, seriously appreciated.

I see that case is a first of this kind case, however, its similar to what we are talking about, but it is not the same.

As yasharki rightfully points out in #147, it is near impossible to prove intent of packets hitting up a web server.

And the case you link, is not specifically about doing only that.

177 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:57:01pm

re: #173 Gus 802

Whew. Just went for a short walk. So many cars with single occupants. No bikes and no pedestrians. I thought Denverites wanted to stop global warming. Guess not.

Thing's will get better if the metro rail between Denver and the surrounds ever gets built.
When i was there i saw a tonne of bikes....... (wish our busses in london had bike racks on the front).

178 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:57:15pm

re: #154 wrenchwench
It's okay... you can speak for 'em.
Although as a ( presumed ) democrat, hard to understand why you'd want to use your party's symbol as a pejorative.
Good evening.

179 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:58:28pm

blah blah blah

180 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:58:42pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea

blah blah blah

oops forgot the

/

181 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:59:17pm

re: #178 tradewind

It's okay... you can speak for 'em.
Although as a ( presumed ) democrat, hard to understand why you'd want to use your party's symbol as a pejorative.
Good evening.

Trade from what I've seen here there is nothing that LGF respects more than the scientific process...

Why do you hate it so?

182 jaunte  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 5:59:38pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea

Youtube Video
183 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:01:11pm

i've heard some wild misconceptions about what us bit pushers do for a living over the years, as well. usually, they fall into two categories:

1) "so you type in numbers all day. big deal". here, software engineers are thought of as data entry clerks a la circa 1975

2) "wow, i could never handle the math". that's a nice thought, but i'm terrible at math, and it isn't really required at any intense level for pgming

184 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:02:35pm

re: #179 Stanley Sea

blah blah blah


I see your blah & raise you a razzzz

185 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:03:07pm

re: #182 jaunte

[Video]

aaahhhaahhahahah

186 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:04:11pm

re: #165 Stanley Sea

Hey James! Remember the chart you were talking about comparing Obama's approval with Saint Ronnie? Here 'tis

you can also get a dynamic version of that with all recent presidents by going here, to the one at gallup, and clicking on the picture of presidents that you would like to compare him to

187 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:04:15pm

re: #170 brookly red

as you like it... I can't even remember the original point.

Fine, be that way, have an upding for #159 and #170.

188 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:04:41pm

re: #177 wozzablog

Thing's will get better if the metro rail between Denver and the surrounds ever gets built.
When i was there i saw a tonne of bikes... (wish our busses in london had bike racks on the front).

It's pretty expensive and usually the riders don't want to pay the true cost of light rail. It can be doable over a period of time. The problem of course is cost overruns when they spend far too much money on station architecture. In Europe, the "stations" are often a curbed island.

189 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:05:11pm

re: #183 engineer dog

i've heard some wild misconceptions about what us bit pushers do for a living over the years, as well. usually, they fall into two categories:

1) "so you type in numbers all day. big deal". here, software engineers are thought of as data entry clerks a la circa 1975

2) "wow, i could never handle the math". that's a nice thought, but i'm terrible at math, and it isn't really required at any intense level for pgming

The problem with me is I couldn't handle the logic :D

190 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:05:23pm

Yay the tea party dude who was following me on twitter (huh? I have no idea)

FINALLY bailed!!! Wonder what tweet sent him over the edge?

ha!

191 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:05:49pm

re: #183 engineer dog

i've heard some wild misconceptions about what us bit pushers do for a living over the years, as well. usually, they fall into two categories:

1) "so you type in numbers all day. big deal". here, software engineers are thought of as data entry clerks a la circa 1975

2) "wow, i could never handle the math". that's a nice thought, but i'm terrible at math, and it isn't really required at any intense level for pgming

OTOH, by "math" they may just mean the concept of variables

192 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:06:45pm

re: #187 ozbloke

Fine, be that way, have an upding for #159 and #170.


huh, you lost me dude, err I mean bloke.

what ever... I gotta make a hard choice now. Pizza or Chinese...

193 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:07:22pm

Evening, all. What's the good word?

194 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:07:54pm

re: #192 brookly red

huh, you lost me dude, err I mean bloke.

what ever... I gotta make a hard choice now. Pizza or Chinese...

Whichever one goes better with pineapple. ;)

195 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:08:03pm

re: #181 jamesfirecat
What you have evidently not seen here is that I never said a thing about ' LGF respecting the scientific process '. That would be ludicrous.
Please re-read and understand that was an offhand remark about one or two posters who are self-professed scientists and their umm, views. And no, not going any further into it for you there.

196 Four More Tears  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:08:20pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

Evening, all. What's the good word?

Youtube Video
197 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:08:39pm

re: #192 brookly red

huh, you lost me dude, err I mean bloke.

what ever... I gotta make a hard choice now. Pizza or Chinese...

Oh those are both such unhealthy choices. You should have a tofu salad with balsamic vinegar instead. Plus you will be doing your part to lower health care costs.

//////

198 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:08:42pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

Evening, all. What's the good word?

BLAM!, BLAM! BLAM! mother fuc...

oh, hello DF.

199 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:09:05pm

And now a word from our sponsor.

At Jaguar...

200 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:09:20pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

Evening, all. What's the good word?

Tradewind just insulted science/scientists...

201 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:09:37pm

re: #188 Gus 802

It's pretty expensive and usually the riders don't want to pay the true cost of light rail. It can be doable over a period of time. The problem of course is cost overruns when they spend far too much money on station architecture. In Europe, the "stations" are often a curbed island.

the docklands light rail in london is the best model to follow in that regard - stations are essentially concrete slabs interlocked with some signage.

the line from Denver to Boulder HAS to happen though. Was caught in the traffic a couple of times in rush hour and for the distance between the two destinations it's criminal to not have a commuter service up and running with the number of people working there but not living there.

202 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:10:14pm

re: #200 jamesfirecat

Tradewind just insulted science/scientists...

And of course Democrats.

203 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:10:31pm

re: #200 jamesfirecat

Tradewind just insulted science/scientists...

How so?

204 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:10:35pm

re: #195 tradewind

What you have evidently not seen here is that I never said a thing about ' LGF respecting the scientific process '. That would be ludicrous.
Please re-read and understand that was an offhand remark about one or two posters who are self-professed scientists and their umm, views. And no, not going any further into it for you there.

So you feel you can judge all scientists based on what you've read from two scientists.

Did they actually tell you the things that you suggested?

I went full sarc and Walter still took me to the cleaners, your half sarc is inexcusable anti-intelectualism to me.

205 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:10:42pm

re: #163 ozbloke

We agree 100%

You can participate in a DOS attack with a few lines of code.
Unless you stored a copy of the script it would be difficult to prove the intent was DOS.
If your machine was compromised, in this era I think you could have success defending yourself as unaware.

Its a big ask...

I bet they try to convict real hackers based on ISP server logsre: #183 engineer dog

i've heard some wild misconceptions about what us bit pushers do for a living over the years, as well. usually, they fall into two categories:

1) "so you type in numbers all day. big deal". here, software engineers are thought of as data entry clerks a la circa 1975

2) "wow, i could never handle the math". that's a nice thought, but i'm terrible at math, and it isn't really required at any intense level for pgming

Math isn't required? You know that one of the basic building blocks of a CPU is called an ALU, right?

206 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:10:55pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon

What's the good word?

Antidisestablishmentarianism

207 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:11:19pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat

Oh James, please just brush Walter off.

208 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:11:20pm

re: #194 Dark_Falcon

Whichever one goes better with pineapple. ;)


blasphemy in either... maybe Thai?

209 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:11:39pm

re: #193 Dark_Falcon
Tolerance, Love, Peace, and Good Will Towards Men, Dark.
Oh wait, that was ' words '. Sorry./

210 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:11:58pm

re: #139 tradewind

Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/

I see you are back.

211 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:12:50pm

re: #201 wozzablog

the docklands light rail in london is the best model to follow in that regard - stations are essentially concrete slabs interlocked with some signage.

the line from Denver to Boulder HAS to happen though. Was caught in the traffic a couple of times in rush hour and for the distance between the two destinations it's criminal to not have a commuter service up and running with the number of people working there but not living there.

I prefer the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority)'s greater use of steel in their newer stations, while keeping wood floors instead of concrete. Concrete slabs are ugly and steel and wood can be made to look much better.

212 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:13:03pm

re: #207 Stanley Sea

Oh James, please just brush Walter off.

and charge him 30 bucks!

213 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:13:04pm

re: #203 Dark_Falcon

How so?

"Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/"

This part in particular...

"a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results,"
And

"and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power."

Because evidently you can't be a scientist and a religious person at the same time.

"You know the more I look, the deeper I go, the more I see just how wonderfully complex everything is and how amazing it is that it all fits together. It just makes me that much more sure that there is a god."

---My dad (FDA chemist) Paraphrased to the best of my memory.

214 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:14:04pm

re: #207 Stanley Sea

Oh James, please just brush Walter off.

Walter's a good egg, and he's quite smart. I'd never suggest brushing him off.

215 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:14:46pm

re: #201 wozzablog

the docklands light rail in london is the best model to follow in that regard - stations are essentially concrete slabs interlocked with some signage.

the line from Denver to Boulder HAS to happen though. Was caught in the traffic a couple of times in rush hour and for the distance between the two destinations it's criminal to not have a commuter service up and running with the number of people working there but not living there.

Blech. I hate driving on 36 to Boulder. It's like every nutcase in the Denver area drives up and down that highway. Anyway, here's the proposal from Wiki:

This will be an 18-mile (29 km) long express bus line running along US 36 between Denver and Boulder. Six stations are planned along this route, and is expected to cost $235.6 million to build. The project will be completed in two phases, with the first phase to be completed by 2008 and the second by 2016.

OK Looks at the mileage and look at the price. 236 million for a lousy 18 miles. Not only is that price tag an outrage the transit impact is minimal. An addition of 18 miles? Anywho, that's 13 million dollars a mile.

Something ain't right.

216 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:15:20pm

re: #192 brookly red

huh, you lost me dude, err I mean bloke.

what ever... I gotta make a hard choice now. Pizza or Chinese...

You up dinged my #166

Pizza, NO pineapple, sorry if thats helpful.

217 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:16:00pm

re: #204 jamesfirecat
...and your spelling is anathema to me, but that's a whole new thread.

Take it easy.....
Take it easy.
Don't let the sound of your own wheels
Drive you crazy.....
Lighten up while you still can.
218 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:16:41pm

re: #201 wozzablog

the docklands light rail in london is the best model to follow in that regard - stations are essentially concrete slabs interlocked with some signage.

the line from Denver to Boulder HAS to happen though. Was caught in the traffic a couple of times in rush hour and for the distance between the two destinations it's criminal to not have a commuter service up and running with the number of people working there but not living there.

Good idea... I hope you have a method of getting people on this marvelous light rail... our newest line... running from Douglas county (about 25 miles sought of downtown Denver), required that a state freeway be reconfigured for the whole route (Interstate 25), and numerous existing bridges removed, new bridges added, very fancy stations, some parts of the line running into the parking garages of office buildings, a really wonderful line.

In the middle of the day, most of the carriages run up and down the line, every 15 minutes, empty.

One problem, in my opinion, at the same time that they built the line, they added lanes to the interstate highway. Almost a way to discourage people from using the light rail, hell, look, they put more lanes on the highway.

And I like public transportation. I love public transportation. I'm originally from NYC. I use rail to travel all over Europe. But public transportation that no one rides is lousy planning.

219 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:16:45pm

Fas Traks

Over budget: The original estimate made by the proponents of the FasTracks project touted a total cost of $4.7 billion. The current estimate has grown to $6.5 billion.

No-bid contracts: RTD awarded a no-bid contract for railcars to the Siemens Corporation who contributed $101,000. to the FasTracks Yes campaign issue committee

Money grows on trees! Nice touch with the no-bid contract.

220 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:16:53pm

re: #211 Dark_Falcon

I prefer the CTA (Chicago Transit Authority)'s greater use of steel in their newer stations, while keeping wood floors instead of concrete. Concrete slabs are ugly and steel and wood can be made to look much better.

Cheap and utilitarian FTW!

Seriously though, there are many great examples of regular mass transit stations across a uniform design, but for cost and function the DLR ones take some beating.

the facades can be as fancy as anyone likes or dislikes, but platforms and ticket halls don't need to be fancy.

221 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:17:00pm

re: #217 tradewind

...and your spelling is anathema to me, but that's a whole new thread.

I just want to know why you said what you did....

222 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:17:36pm

re: #215 Gus 802

Blech. I hate driving on 36 to Boulder. It's like every nutcase in the Denver area drives up and down that highway. Anyway, here's the proposal from Wiki:


OK Looks at the mileage and look at the price. 236 million for a lousy 18 miles. Not only is that price tag an outrage the transit impact is minimal. An addition of 18 miles? Anywho, that's 13 million dollars a mile.

Something ain't right.


well you gotta figure in pension costs... Its 13 Billion a mile in NY

223 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:18:17pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat

"Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/"

This part in particular...

"a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results,"
And

"and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power."

Because evidently you can't be a scientist and a religious person at the same time.

"You know the more I look, the deeper I go, the more I see just how wonderfully complex everything is and how amazing it is that it all fits together. It just makes me that much more sure that there is a god."

---My dad (FDA chemist) Paraphrased to the best of my memory.

I think TW was attacking the politicization of science, not science itself. And it is true that the Democrats do sometimes politicize science, but so do the Republicans.

As to the "man is his own higher power" line, I have to think TW wrong on that one. I don't really see atheist pressure in science right now.

224 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:18:42pm

re: #213 jamesfirecat
Kudos to your Dad ( no snark).
Now please refer to the part where I added
' the exceptions: they exist. '
But you couldn't swallow the ' spare me ' part.
It's okay... have to run anyway.

225 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:19:10pm

re: #222 brookly red

well you gotta figure in pension costs... Its 13 Billion a mile in NY

Yep. 100 dollars an hour plus for just one truck driver. And he gets paid to idle too. That might be the full cost to the city.

But yeah. Nothing to see here. Can't criticize the holy church of government.

226 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:19:12pm

re: #219 Gus 802

Fas Traks


Money grows on trees! Nice touch with the no-bid contract.

Bush! Halliburton! uh Halliburton!... oh Bush?

227 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:20:19pm

re: #195 tradewind

What you have evidently not seen here is that I never said a thing about ' LGF respecting the scientific process '. That would be ludicrous.
Please re-read and understand that was an offhand remark about one or two posters who are self-professed scientists and their umm, views. And no, not going any further into it for you there.

I think your back peddling needs work.

228 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:20:28pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

I think TW was attacking the politicization of science, not science itself. And it is true that the Democrats do sometimes politicize science, but so do the Republicans.

As to the "man is his own higher power" line, I have to think TW wrong on that one. I don't really see atheist pressure in science right now.

I was just insulted that Trade took a report that said that by a vast majority most scientists are democrats and then tried to turn it into a slam against both groups...

229 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:21:01pm

re: #226 brookly red

Bush! Halliburton! uh Halliburton!... oh Bush?

Yeah. More like Hickenlooper and company.

230 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:21:07pm

re: #205 yasharki

Math isn't required? You know that one of the basic building blocks of a CPU is called an ALU, right?

yes. it does the math for me

seriously, though, of course there is math in the computer science course of study, although the logic and algorithmic aspects of it are the most important parts. i use the logic from the 'discreet math' course and tools from the analysis of algorithms class much more than i do the calculus and linear algebra, altho vectors and matrix multiplication can come in handy in some esoteric contexts. and most of all you need lots of patience, an unhealthy amount of stubborness, and strong coffee

do you write code?

231 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:21:23pm

re: #215 Gus 802

Blech. I hate driving on 36 to Boulder. It's like every nutcase in the Denver area drives up and down that highway. Anyway, here's the proposal from Wiki:

OK Looks at the mileage and look at the price. 236 million for a lousy 18 miles. Not only is that price tag an outrage the transit impact is minimal. An addition of 18 miles? Anywho, that's 13 million dollars a mile.

Something ain't right.

The over run on that is already quite spectacular if i recall. If they could keep it to 236ml it isn't too bad - we'd take that and run with it for a similar project here.
That includes a new fleet of busses and infrastructure - could be worse.

232 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:21:45pm

re: #225 Gus 802

Yep. 100 dollars an hour plus for just one truck driver. And he gets paid to idle too. That might be the full cost to the city.

But yeah. Nothing to see here. Can't criticize the holy church of government.


ahem... It's a hard rain that's gonna fall...

233 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:21:51pm

re: #231 wozzablog

The over run on that is already quite spectacular if i recall. If they could keep it to 236ml it isn't too bad - we'd take that and run with it for a similar project here.
That includes a new fleet of busses and infrastructure - could be worse.

Sorry. 236 million for 18 miles is a joke.

234 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:22:25pm

re: #232 brookly red

ahem... It's a hard rain that's gonna fall...

Am I doing it again? Where's my XXXXLLL t-shirt?

235 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:23:07pm

re: #217 tradewind

...and your spelling is anathema to me, but that's a whole new thread.

I think the whistling in your ears is driving you nuts.

236 tradewind  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:23:25pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

I think TW was attacking the politicization of science, not science itself

.... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?
Sigh.
Goodnight, dark. Mind the gap.

237 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:24:02pm

re: #139 tradewind

Well of course. The practice of science as a career today generally demands a capacity for endless patience with ... nah, make that embracing tangled bureaucracy, a tolerance for hours and hours of repeating the same mistakes expecting different results, a high threshold for acceptance of red tape and overreaching regulation, and strict adherence to the philosophy that man is his own higher power.
Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist.
/only half sarc/


yes, it's all this reason people become scientists.

Because they LIKE BUREAUCRACY.

because of course it couldn't be...
because they're intellectually curious.

because they want to help people.

because they enjoy the sense of discovery.

because they're talented and want to use their talents to their fullest potential.


The things you write sometimes are so dumb and insulting it actually wraps around and becomes cute! Sorta the way my cat goes HEY LOOK AT ME! after sending a pint glass crashing to the floor

238 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:25:37pm

re: #234 Gus 802

Am I doing it again? Where's my XXXLLL t-shirt?


uh, well, uh...

we spent it on booze and whores...

239 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:26:24pm

re: #218 Walter L. Newton

Good idea... I hope you have a method of getting people on this marvelous light rail... our newest line... running from Douglas county (about 25 miles sought of downtown Denver), required that a state freeway be reconfigured for the whole route (Interstate 25), and numerous existing bridges removed, new bridges added, very fancy stations, some parts of the line running into the parking garages of office buildings, a really wonderful line.

In the middle of the day, most of the carriages run up and down the line, every 15 minutes, empty.

One problem, in my opinion, at the same time that they built the line, they added lanes to the interstate highway. Almost a way to discourage people from using the light rail, hell, look, they put more lanes on the highway.

And I like public transportation. I love public transportation. I'm originally from NYC. I use rail to travel all over Europe. But public transportation that no one rides is lousy planning.

i think a denver/boulder line would be more successful - best way to get people on it is time saving, and you get a bunch of that during rush hour. I figure enough residual traffic between the two places for it not to be entirely empty during the day, but the point of a commuter line is the commuters.
i don't know the ins and outs of the proposed routes but if it cuts travel time and eases the gridlock on the roads it's a good investment.

240 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:26:28pm

re: #237 WindUpBird

yes, it's all this reason people become scientists.

Because they LIKE BUREAUCRACY.

because of course it couldn't be...
because they're intellectually curious.

because they want to help people.

because they enjoy the sense of discovery.

because they're talented and want to use their talents to their fullest potential.

The things you write sometimes are so dumb and insulting it actually wraps around and becomes cute! Sorta the way my cat goes HEY LOOK AT ME! after sending a pint glass crashing to the floor

You want to see "cute" watch what happens to a cat after it fails at something...

Youtube Video
241 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:26:31pm

Every teacher I know, they just totally embrace administration and obnoxious teach to the test standards

They EMBRACE IT! They hug it to their chest and they just love it so

lol

242 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:27:06pm

re: #230 engineer dog

Math isn't required? You know that one of the basic building blocks of a CPU is called an ALU, right?

yes. it does the math for me

seriously, though, of course there is math in the computer science course of study, although the logic and algorithmic aspects of it are the most important parts. i use the logic from the 'discreet math' course and tools from the analysis of algorithms class much more than i do the calculus and linear algebra, altho vectors and matrix multiplication can come in handy in some esoteric contexts. and most of all you need lots of patience, an unhealthy amount of stubborness, and strong coffee

do you write code?

Vectors and matrix math are not so esoteric when coding graphics.

243 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:27:40pm

re: #223 Dark_Falcon

I think TW was attacking the politicization of science, not science itself. And it is true that the Democrats do sometimes politicize science, but so do the Republicans.

As to the "man is his own higher power" line, I have to think TW wrong on that one. I don't really see atheist pressure in science right now.

yeha, read that again, it was a slam against scientists, not politics.

244 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:28:18pm

Anyway. It's not much different than highway projects. It's all a big scam. Here's the average prices for light rail across the country:

A survey of North American light rail projects shows that costs of most LRT systems range from $15 million per mile to over $100 million per mile. Seattle's new light rail system is by far the most expensive in the U.S. at $179 million per mile, since it includes extensive tunneling in poor soil conditions, elevated sections, and stations as deep as 180 feet (55 m) below ground level.

Competition would help lower costs. That nixes the no-bid contract BS.

245 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:28:34pm

re: #233 Gus 802

Sorry. 236 million for 18 miles is a joke.

It's not cheap, definitely not cheap. If it's needed it's worth the cost though.
All from scratch transit projects involving urban areas are expensive.

246 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:29:18pm

You have one party that is more hostile to science than the other. Therefore, there will be fewer scientists from that party. Simple.

247 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:29:51pm

re: #236 tradewind

... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?
Sigh.
Goodnight, dark. Mind the gap.

Because 'generally speaking', and 'exceptions' does not make what you said true.

248 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:30:01pm

re: #230 engineer dog

Math isn't required? You know that one of the basic building blocks of a CPU is called an ALU, right?

yes. it does the math for me

seriously, though, of course there is math in the computer science course of study, although the logic and algorithmic aspects of it are the most important parts. i use the logic from the 'discreet math' course and tools from the analysis of algorithms class much more than i do the calculus and linear algebra, altho vectors and matrix multiplication can come in handy in some esoteric contexts. and most of all you need lots of patience, an unhealthy amount of stubborness, and strong coffee

do you write code?

Damnit, you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about now that you mention discreet math :) Yes, I have to confess calculus, differential equations, and Newtonian approximation methods aren't exactly helpful in one's daily coding routine. But if I ever got that dream job in the gaming industry though...

249 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:30:13pm

re: #244 Gus 802

Anyway. It's not much different than highway projects. It's all a big scam. Here's the average prices for light rail across the country:


Competition would help lower costs. That nixes the no-bid contract BS.

Comp... competi... com, Ack! Mommie! Mommie! they said com... ack!

250 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:30:26pm

re: #243 WindUpBird

yeha, read that again, it was a slam against scientists, not politics.

Make sure to read this part Dark...

"Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. "

You may say it happens on both sides, but I think Trade has made it quite clear which side she feels is more guilty of it, in fact her comments lead one to the conclusion that democrats decide to become scientists just so that they can misuse their powers.

251 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:31:26pm

re: #220 wozzablog

Cheap and utilitarian FTW!

Seriously though, there are many great examples of regular mass transit stations across a uniform design, but for cost and function the DLR ones take some beating.

the facades can be as fancy as anyone likes or dislikes, but platforms and ticket halls don't need to be fancy.

I disagree, at least a bit, but that's to some extent just pride in Chicago for building stations that look better than the ones they replaced. The final touch on the CTA stations at Fullerton and Belmont is that of each one's two entrances was given a Neo-Classical facade to make it look like one of the original entrances from the 1890's-1920's. Interestingly, in giving the entrances such a facade, the CTA is emulating the White City in two ways.

5 updings to anyone who can figure out the bolded sentence.

252 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:31:43pm

re: #245 wozzablog

It's not cheap, definitely not cheap. If it's needed it's worth the cost though.
All from scratch transit projects involving urban areas are expensive.

Like I said. If they cut the architecture costs they can save a lot of money. Most of the junk they put up these days won't last 50 years anyway. One of the other problems is that we have almost no rail car manufacturer in this country. Meaning that sometimes we have to pay top dollar for Siemans equipment. The important thing of course is not to re-invent the wheel and hire engineering companies with real experience in mass transit.

253 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:31:52pm

re: #236 tradewind

... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?
Sigh.
Goodnight, dark. Mind the gap.

Because atheist ones who do it for the political lulz are the exceptions and the one who actually do it to try and help people are the majority you've got which side is the "exception" wrong Trade.

254 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:31:57pm

re: #242 b_sharp

Vectors and matrix math are not so esoteric when coding graphics.

very true. i try my hand at analytic geometry from time to time, but mostly i admire games and graphics pgmrs from a distance with awe

my specialties are more in text/natural language processing, where i have some papers and algorithms with excellent cites, GUI design, and command and control of machines of the types that always seem to include a spectrum analyser display. but mostly i am a general purpose application developer

255 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:32:14pm

re: #249 brookly red

Comp... competi... com, Ack! Mommie! Mommie! they said com... ack!

Free market competition!

Woot!

256 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:32:32pm

re: #236 tradewind

... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?
Sigh.
Goodnight, dark. Mind the gap.

You made a general comment about scientists and claimed a small subset, your exceptions, would be different. Now you're trying to claim it was just an off hand comment about a small number of scientists, particularly a couple here. Because your second claim, and the argument I'm responding to, are in conflict with the original post, it is obvious to me you are just trying to slither out of the hole you dug with your first comment.

I find it completely ironic that you insult the intelligence of other posters based on your observations.

257 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:32:54pm

re: #251 Dark_Falcon

I disagree, at least a bit, but that's to some extent just pride in Chicago for building stations that look better than the ones they replaced. The final touch on the CTA stations at Fullerton and Belmont is that of each one's two entrances was given a Neo-Classical facade to make it look like one of the original entrances from the 1890's-1920's. Interestingly, in giving the entrances such a facade, the CTA is emulating the White City in two ways.

5 updings to anyone who can figure out the bolded sentence.


My brother inlaw gets the contract. Pay me

258 Interesting Times  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:33:36pm

re: #236 tradewind

... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?

"Being an unemployed minority today generally demands a hopeless dependence on government handouts because you won't bootstrap yourself like a Real AmericanTM. Not hard to figure out which party is most attractive to that demographic. Spare me the exceptions, they of course exist."

Yup, can't see why anyone would find that (or a variation thereof) in the least bit offensive. 9_9

259 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:34:38pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Because 'generally speaking', and 'exceptions' does not make what you said true.

I'm glad someone else mentioned that.

260 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:35:11pm

re: #252 Gus 802

Like I said. If they cut the architecture costs they can save a lot of money. Most of the junk they put up these days won't last 50 years anyway. One of the other problems is that we have almost no rail car manufacturer in this country. Meaning that sometimes we have to pay top dollar for Siemans equipment. The important thing of course is not to re-invent the wheel and hire engineering companies with real experience in mass transit.

the UK has the same problem. we have no coachworks of any note left.

ours are now from siemens and bombardier.

261 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:35:12pm

re: #257 brookly red

My brother inlaw gets the contract. Pay me

Nope, that isn't it. It refers to something Chicago did right, not a problem it has.

262 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:36:08pm

re: #261 Dark_Falcon

Nope, that isn't it. It refers to something Chicago did right, not a problem it has.

show me.

263 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:36:20pm

re: #214 Dark_Falcon

Walter's a good egg, and he's quite smart. I'd never suggest brushing him off.

Sorry for the late response. He was an ass to James, and was trolling. In this instance the brush off suggestion was kind.

264 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:36:23pm

Anyway moving onto happier things...

Youtube Video
once again nothing is cutter than watching cats FAIL then watching kittens FAIL and seeing that clearly they're okay afterwards...
265 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:36:26pm

re: #248 yasharki

Damnit, you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about now that you mention discreet math :) Yes, I have to confess calculus, differential equations, and Newtonian approximation methods aren't exactly helpful in one's daily coding routine. But if I ever got that dream job in the gaming industry though...

Depends on the app you're coding. Although I haven't done so, coding a CAD program might require some calculus.

266 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:37:22pm

re: #247 SanFranciscoZionist

Because 'generally speaking', and 'exceptions' does not make what you said true.

Shit is shit, no matter what flowery language surrounds it!

267 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:38:25pm

re: #236 tradewind

... of course.
And why is the ' generally speaking, acknowledging exceptions in advance ' part so hard to spot for most?
Sigh.
Goodnight, dark. Mind the gap.

Give me a fucking break, have some cheese to go with your whine?

268 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:38:52pm

re: #248 yasharki

Damnit, you definitely sound like you know what you're talking about now that you mention discreet math :) Yes, I have to confess calculus, differential equations, and Newtonian approximation methods aren't exactly helpful in one's daily coding routine. But if I ever got that dream job in the gaming industry though...

yeah - i don't think i could handle the math needed for game development. these days i'm concentrating more on trying to teach myself to design dynamic programming algorithms, and on the other hand working on more text search algorithms

269 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:39:08pm

re: #246 WindUpBird

You have one party that is more hostile to science than the other. Therefore, there will be fewer scientists from that party. Simple.

I was at a party the other day. Not a single damn scientist. I know what you mean.

270 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:39:45pm

re: #254 engineer dog

very true. i try my hand at analytic geometry from time to time, but mostly i admire games and graphics pgmrs from a distance with awe

my specialties are more in text/natural language processing, where i have some papers and algorithms with excellent cites, GUI design, and command and control of machines of the types that always seem to include a spectrum analyser display. but mostly i am a general purpose application developer

I took a couple of 400 level graphics classes back in the day, but had it decided for me not to pursue graphics. There were no local jobs requiring graphics coding.

271 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:41:38pm

re: #190 Stanley Sea

Yay the tea party dude who was following me on twitter (huh? I have no idea)

FINALLY bailed!!! Wonder what tweet sent him over the edge?

ha!

Congratulations!

272 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:41:45pm

re: #262 brookly red

show me.

I'll give you a link.

273 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:43:23pm

re: #269 Walter L. Newton

I was at a party the other day. Not a single damn scientist. I know what you mean.

You're hanging in the wrong party crowd if there were no scientists. They party crazy.

274 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:44:43pm

re: #269 Walter L. Newton

I was at a party the other day. Not a single damn scientist. I know what you mean.

Architects, engineers, doctors, etc., all have to be licensed. You ever notice that scientists don't have a licensing procedure? From my experience a lot of people I've met that call themselves scientists are really lab technicians. Same like a lot of folks that work at Lockheed-Martin that call themselves "rocket-scientists" when they're in fact engineers.

275 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:44:50pm

re: #265 b_sharp

Depends on the app you're coding. Although I haven't done so, coding a CAD program might require some calculus.

Right, you have to be proficient in math while coding 3d graphics by hand, something I always wanted to do but never done professionally.

276 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:45:03pm

Trade's comments have touched off the ugly specter of anti-intellectualism that every so often shows up in today's politics.

In that case I think it is time to have an official lol-troll answer to it....

[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]

277 A Man for all Seasons  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:45:12pm

re: #273 b_sharp

You're hanging in the wrong party crowd if there were no scientists. They party crazy.

They party like its 1999^2/2.356

278 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:45:13pm

Mittens!

Image: ore.jpg

279 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:45:45pm

WikiLeaks cable fuels Burmese nuclear fears.

Dockworkers and foreign businessmen have seen evidence of alleged secret nuclear and missile sites being built deep in the Burmese jungle, a leaked US diplomatic cable said.

"The North Koreans, aided by Burmese workers, are constructing a concrete-reinforced underground facility that is '500ft from the top of the cave to the top of the hill above'," according to the cable published by the British daily The Guardian.

The cable from the US embassy in Rangoon was among the latest US diplomatic documents to be released by the WikiLeaks website.

It quoted a Burmese military officer who said he had witnessed North Korean technicians helping the construction work.

One foreign businessman told the embassy that he had seen reinforced steel bar, larger than for just a factory project, being shipped on a barge. Dockworkers also told of seeing suspicious cargo.

A cable dating from August 2004 revealed information from a Burmese officer in an engineering unit who said surface-to-air missiles were being built at a site in a town called Minbu in west-central Burma.

He said some 300 North Koreans were working at the site, although the US cable noted this was improbably high, The Guardian said.

More at link...

280 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:46:54pm

re: #271 Floral Giraffe

Congratulations!

Thank you. Made my fricken day.

281 Wozza Matter?  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:46:57pm

g'night all.

i had a minor back surgery today - can now pop some more pain pills (phew).

see you all tomorrow some time.

282 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:47:37pm

re: #276 jamesfirecat

Trade's comments have touched off the ugly specter of anti-intellectualism that every so often shows up in today's politics.

In that case I think it is time to have an official lol-troll answer to it...

[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]

Upding for the Trollcat.

283 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:47:38pm

re: #276 jamesfirecat

Trade's comments have touched off the ugly specter of anti-intellectualism that every so often shows up in today's politics.

In that case I think it is time to have an official lol-troll answer to it...

[Link: jamesfirecat.deviantart.com...]

Keep going James. Just make sure we have easy access to them.

284 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:47:57pm

re: #277 HoosierHoops

They party like its 1999^2/2.356

software engineers party like it's 0xFFFF

285 darthstar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:48:40pm

re: #140 JasonA

Not a very nice remark, bro.

It wasn't meant to be nice. Fuck Jan Brewer.

286 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:50:19pm

re: #274 Gus 802

Architects, engineers, doctors, etc., all have to be licensed. You ever notice that scientists don't have a licensing procedure? From my experience a lot of people I've met that call themselves scientists are really lab technicians. Same like a lot of folks that work at Lockheed-Martin that call themselves "rocket-scientists" when they're in fact engineers.

What about getting PHD, doesn't that qualify as a licensing procedure?

287 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:52:28pm

re: #277 HoosierHoops

They party like its 1999^2/2.356

That's a pretty high correlation between party and crazy.

288 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:54:28pm

re: #286 yasharki

What about getting PHD, doesn't that qualify as a licensing procedure?

I think it's a matter of being published, peer reviewed and generally accepted within a particular field(s). Degree doesn't matter as much as the specific ability and knowledge of the scientist. You can have someone with a bachelors that outperforms someone with a PhD.

289 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:56:02pm

re: #288 Gus 802

I think it's a matter of being published, peer reviewed and generally accepted within a particular field(s). Degree doesn't matter as much as the specific ability and knowledge of the scientist. You can have someone with a bachelors that outperforms someone with a PhD.

Thats true of any field.

290 Usually refered to as anyways  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:57:43pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats true of any field.

/What about something coming out of left field?

291 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:58:57pm

re: #290 ozbloke

/What about something coming out of left field?

That would depend on third base

292 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:59:00pm

re: #289 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Thats true of any field.

Not in the practical sense with all fields. You won't find many attorney's with just a bachelors degree. You get JD first and then you have to take the bar exams. Equating the attainment of a PhD in a particular scientific field does not equal professional competency (in all cases) in the long run.

293 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 6:59:43pm

re: #290 ozbloke

/What about something coming out of left field?

Never play right field, nobody hits there.

294 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:01:23pm

re: #293 b_sharp

Never play right field, nobody hits there.

I beg to differ. There are a good number of left-handers in baseball.

295 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:01:48pm

re: #292 Gus 802

Not in the practical sense with all fields. You won't find many attorney's with just a bachelors degree. You get JD first and then you have to take the bar exams. Equating the attainment of a PhD in a particular scientific field does not equal professional competency (in all cases) in the long run.

How many scientists do you suspect are out there without a PhD?
I know a couple dozen scientists, all have PhDs.

296 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:02:24pm

Fuck the GOP on the DADT vote today.

What the hell are they thinking? I'm for repeal, but voting against it??

Playing like football fans with people's lives.

Murkowski & Brown. Bought and paid for.

297 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:03:17pm

re: #292 Gus 802

Not in the practical sense with all fields. You won't find many attorney's with just a bachelors degree. You get JD first and then you have to take the bar exams. Equating the attainment of a PhD in a particular scientific field does not equal professional competency (in all cases) in the long run.

I.e. There are quacks with PhDs in biology who can continue to "practice" and call themselves scientists. If you're a quack in the legal field you will eventually be disbarred. Many states also require architects to provide proof of continuing education to remain licensed. Colorado is one such state. Once licensed to be either an architect or a structural engineer you are subject to the bylaws and regulations of professional conduct. If you go before the board and lose your license you can no longer call yourself an architect.

298 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:03:50pm

re: #294 Dark_Falcon

I beg to differ. There are a good number of left-handers in baseball.

When I played little league, they stuck me in right field. I got so bored I forced them to make me a pitcher.

299 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:04:33pm

re: #298 b_sharp

When I played little league, they stuck me in right field. I got so bored I forced them to make me a pitcher.

They stuck me in right field as well, but I figured the only way to win was not to play :D

300 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:05:09pm

re: #298 b_sharp

When I played little league, they stuck me in right field. I got so bored I forced them to make me a pitcher.

I was terrible at sports. When we played baseball in gym, they made me play far field. I was a Junior before I realized that far field wasn't a real position.

301 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:05:22pm

re: #295 b_sharp

How many scientists do you suspect are out there without a PhD?
I know a couple dozen scientists, all have PhDs.

I'm sure I can find some. Ergo, b_sharp only knows scientists with PhDs does not mean all scientists have PhDs.

302 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:06:12pm

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

By about 8th grade, I was pretty much done with all sports that weren't skiing, and I only liked skiing because I got to go really fast down hills

303 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:06:17pm

re: #297 Gus 802

I.e. There are quacks with PhDs in biology who can continue to "practice" and call themselves scientists. If you're a quack in the legal field you will eventually be disbarred. Many states also require architects to provide proof of continuing education to remain licensed. Colorado is one such state. Once licensed to be either an architect or a structural engineer you are subject to the bylaws and regulations of professional conduct. If you go before the board and lose your license you can no longer call yourself an architect.

Quacks are labelled as quacks by other scientists in the same field and their work is ignored.

Scientists are rated by how their publications are viewed by other scientists. Poorly rated scientists have trouble getting jobs and grants.

304 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:07:11pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I'm sure I can find some. Ergo, b_sharp only knows scientists with PhDs does not mean all scientists have PhDs.

That was a very scientific way of expressing that.

305 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:07:18pm

re: #303 b_sharp

Quacks are labelled as quacks by other scientists in the same field and their work is ignored.

Scientists are rated by how their publications are viewed by other scientists. Poorly rated scientists have trouble getting jobs and grants.


yes... we have noticed.

306 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:07:44pm

re: #303 b_sharp

Quacks are labelled as quacks by other scientists in the same field and their work is ignored.

Scientists are rated by how their publications are viewed by other scientists. Poorly rated scientists have trouble getting jobs and grants.

Which is what I said previously:

I think it's a matter of being published, peer reviewed and generally accepted within a particular field(s). Degree doesn't matter as much as the specific ability and knowledge of the scientist. You can have someone with a bachelors that outperforms someone with a PhD.

307 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:05pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I'm sure I can find some. Ergo, b_sharp only knows scientists with PhDs does not mean all scientists have PhDs.

My sister inb law works for NOAA, she's a scientist without a PhD, but basically what she does is study core samples, she's not heading a project or anything, she's just a very technically proficient part of the process


it's sorta like a nurse who runs a hospital unit isn't a doctor, but they are a charge nurse who runs a big unit and makes like $200,000 a year or so. Not a doctor, but would know more than a doctor about the infrastructure of the hospital.

308 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:18pm

re: #288 Gus 802

I think it's a matter of being published, peer reviewed and generally accepted within a particular field(s). Degree doesn't matter as much as the specific ability and knowledge of the scientist. You can have someone with a bachelors that outperforms someone with a PhD.

Wait a minute, doesn't getting a PHD require one to write a dissertation, get it published, and defend it in front of "licensed" scientists? On top of that some schools require a certain amount of peer reviewed and published material to exist before they even accept a professorial candidature, no? That gives some serious credit to people who managed to acquire such a degree from a respected institution, imho.

309 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:35pm

re: #300 Walter L. Newton

I was terrible at sports. When we played baseball in gym, they made me play far field. I was a Junior before I realized that far field wasn't a real position.

Was it on the other side of the fence?

The only talent I had in sports was my ability to throw harder and farther than others of my age. That and catching a ball.

310 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:08:37pm

re: #302 WindUpBird

By about 8th grade, I was pretty much done with all sports that weren't skiing, and I only liked skiing because I got to go really fast down hills

I actually learned to ski in North Jersey when I was about 14. Strange, I stopped skiing when I left New Jersey, and never did it again. Been in Colorado for 20 years, have never taken advantage of the slopes here... and probably won't now.

311 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:09:54pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

I actually learned to ski in North Jersey when I was about 14. Strange, I stopped skiing when I left New Jersey, and never did it again. Been in Colorado for 20 years, have never taken advantage of the slopes here... and probably won't now.

that's when i learned, I stopped because I just had too much other stuff going on, I didn't love it so much i wanted to rearrange my life around it, and also, nobody I know skis :D

Skiing is one of those things I'll probably pick up again when i get older, but I don't even have time to fire up my Xbox, no way do I have time to ski

312 Gus  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:10:19pm

Well. That's all I have to say about that. Not in the mood to play "one upmanship" debating tonight.

313 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:10:47pm

re: #310 Walter L. Newton

I actually learned to ski in North Jersey when I was about 14. Strange, I stopped skiing when I left New Jersey, and never did it again. Been in Colorado for 20 years, have never taken advantage of the slopes here... and probably won't now.

/but how can you resist the leftist call to go downhill as fast as you can?

314 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:10:55pm

re: #307 WindUpBird

My sister inb law works for NOAA, she's a scientist without a PhD, but basically what she does is study core samples, she's not heading a project or anything, she's just a very technically proficient part of the process


it's sorta like a nurse who runs a hospital unit isn't a doctor, but they are a charge nurse who runs a big unit and makes like $200,000 a year or so. Not a doctor, but would know more than a doctor about the infrastructure of the hospital.

a big thumbs up for the nurses! an difficult and underappreciated field and dammit we need more of them

315 Kragar  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:11:15pm

Certifications of any type (degree, licensing, etc) merely means the person has passed an industry standardized measurement for the bare minimums of the job field. You're always going to be able to find non-accreditted people who could easily pass the test but have not, as well as people who got lucky and just got by the bare minimum.

316 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:11:20pm

re: #296 Stanley Sea

Fuck the GOP on the DADT vote today.

What the hell are they thinking? I'm for repeal, but voting against it??

Playing like football fans with people's lives.

Murkowski & Brown. Bought and paid for.


They made it very clear: They're going to filibuster the Defense Authorization until the tax matter gets resolved. Susan Collins warned Harry Reid that would happen. Reid just called that cote to rile you up, he knew nothing would happen. Save your outrage.

317 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:12:50pm

re: #301 Gus 802

I'm sure I can find some. Ergo, b_sharp only knows scientists with PhDs does not mean all scientists have PhDs.

I never claimed that they did. Anecdotal evidence is not evidence.

My point was that the most visible of scientists are those with PhDs. Scientists without PhDs will have a lot of trouble chasing down grants and finding positions in research labs.

318 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:13:02pm

re: #314 engineer dog

a big thumbs up for the nurses! an difficult and underappreciated field and dammit we need more of them

I tend to hang out with basically people from two professions: nurses, and weirdo artists :D I'm not a nurse, but I'm just SURROUNDED by them, hah. The stories I have heard, holy crap o_o

319 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:13:50pm

re: #315 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Certifications of any type (degree, licensing, etc) merely means the person has passed an industry standardized measurement for the bare minimums of the job field. You're always going to be able to find non-accreditted people who could easily pass the test but have not, as well as people who got lucky and just got by the bare minimum.

Dr. Assmurk will see you now...

320 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:13:53pm

re: #315 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Certifications of any type (degree, licensing, etc) merely means the person has passed an industry standardized measurement for the bare minimums of the job field. You're always going to be able to find non-accreditted people who could easily pass the test but have not, as well as people who got lucky and just got by the bare minimum.

What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in med school?

Doctor!

321 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:14:17pm

Here is your seasonal reminder...

"Monday night offers best viewing of Geminid meteor shower"

A clear sky on Monday night will offer the best viewing of one of the year's busiest meteor showers.

The Geminid meteor shower produces as many as 120 shooting stars an hour, or an average of two a minute, visible under a dark sky, Alan MacRobert, senior editor of Sky & Telescope magazine, said.

[Link: news.blogs.cnn.com...]

Walter - the meteorite man

322 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:31pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

They made it very clear: They're going to filibuster the Defense Authorization until the tax matter gets resolved. Susan Collins warned Harry Reid that would happen. Reid just called that cote to rile you up, he knew nothing would happen. Save your outrage.

$ for the top 2% vs. human rights in our currently fighting Military.

Yeah, I'll save it.

Disgusted.

323 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:37pm

re: #311 WindUpBird

that's when i learned, I stopped because I just had too much other stuff going on, I didn't love it so much i wanted to rearrange my life around it, and also, nobody I know skis :D

Skiing is one of those things I'll probably pick up again when i get older, but I don't even have time to fire up my Xbox, no way do I have time to ski

I got my speed rush as a teenager building street/strip engines and street racing.

324 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:41pm

re: #183 engineer dog

i've heard some wild misconceptions about what us bit pushers do for a living over the years, as well. usually, they fall into two categories:

1) "so you type in numbers all day. big deal". here, software engineers are thought of as data entry clerks a la circa 1975

2) "wow, i could never handle the math". that's a nice thought, but i'm terrible at math, and it isn't really required at any intense level for pgming

But the degree in Math looks so cool on my resume.

325 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:43pm

re: #320 WindUpBird

What do you call the guy who graduated last in his class in med school?

Doctor!

What do you call an MCSE? Microsoft Certified Solitare Expert.

326 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:15:56pm

re: #309 b_sharp

Was it on the other side of the fence?

The only talent I had in sports was my ability to throw harder and farther than others of my age. That and catching a ball.

I was a decent runner, and bad at everything else. Sot hey'd have me bunt a lot, and then run like hell for 1st X_X

327 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:16:20pm

re: #323 b_sharp

I got my speed rush as a teenager building street/strip engines and street racing.

I did some of the latter, I had no skills to do the former

328 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:17:47pm

re: #318 WindUpBird

I tend to hang out with basically people from two professions: nurses, and weirdo artists :D I'm not a nurse, but I'm just SURROUNDED by them, hah. The stories I have heard, holy crap o_o

i don't know how they manage it - i couldn't do it, myself

329 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:18:39pm

re: #324 Alouette

But the degree in Math looks so cool on my resume.

:-)

330 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:18:51pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

They made it very clear: They're going to filibuster the Defense Authorization until the tax matter gets resolved. Susan Collins warned Harry Reid that would happen. Reid just called that cote to rile you up, he knew nothing would happen. Save your outrage.

I'd like it if all americans were treated like equal citizens under the law. i'd like it if our military policy regarding gays didn't look like something a witch doctor or a drunk preacher came up with. I'd like it if the GOp didn't have to pander to the Family Research Council.

I know it's not you getting kicked out of the army because you fucked a dude, but ya know, maybe some of us are actually outraged for real

So sorry, not really saving it

331 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:19:14pm

re: #318 WindUpBird

I tend to hang out with basically people from two professions: nurses, and weirdo artists :D I'm not a nurse, but I'm just SURROUNDED by them, hah. The stories I have heard, holy crap o_o

Safe group to be around, especially if you are a klutz.

My best friend during my first journey through university was a tattoo artist. She had an amazing unicorn tattoo along the full length of her leg. Last I heard of her she had her own tattoo shop.

332 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:19:37pm

re: #328 engineer dog

i don't know how they manage it - i couldn't do it, myself

Their personalities are different from ours. *_* A friend of mine is going into hospice nursing. She LOVES it. My mind was blown

333 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:19:51pm

re: #331 b_sharp

Safe group to be around, especially if you are a klutz.

My best friend during my first journey through university was a tattoo artist. She had an amazing unicorn tattoo along the full length of her leg. Last I heard of her she had her own tattoo shop.

raaad :D

334 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:20:43pm

re: #323 b_sharp

I got my speed rush as a teenager building street/strip engines and street racing.

Now I want to know what's in your garage

335 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:21:20pm

re: #324 Alouette

But the degree in Math looks so cool on my resume.

Degrees in math are so cool. I wish I had one.

336 brookly red  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:21:59pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Now I want to know what's in your garage

8 husky dogs!

337 Stanghazi  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:22:08pm

All I ever go back to about DADT is integration in the military. Same folks protested that, fought against that, used the same hateful arguments.

Wonder if Congress used domestic fiscal policy to stall it then?

Probably.

338 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:23:47pm

re: #326 WindUpBird

I was a decent runner, and bad at everything else. Sot hey'd have me bunt a lot, and then run like hell for 1st X_X

We each have our talent.

My younger brother loved to bug the shit out of me and he could run faster and make sharper turns so I could never catch him. I learned how to pick him off with stones.

339 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:23:59pm

re: #335 b_sharp

Degrees in math are so cool. I wish I had one.

You could make iphone middleware like my friend in PDX with a math degree! he wanted to teach, realized he was fucked because the field was glutted and he wasn't a megagenius, stumbled across a job making iphones work better, and now he works from home.

340 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:24:47pm

re: #338 b_sharp

We each have our talent.

My younger brother loved to bug the shit out of me and he could run faster and make sharper turns so I could never catch him. I learned how to pick him off with stones.

ahahahaha

"Let's see how fast you run with a CONCUSSION!"

341 engineer cat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:25:18pm

re: #335 b_sharp

Degrees in math are so cool. I wish I had one.

me too!

alouette - what was your concentration?

342 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:27:41pm

re: #316 Dark_Falcon

They made it very clear: They're going to filibuster the Defense Authorization until the tax matter gets resolved. Susan Collins warned Harry Reid that would happen. Reid just called that cote to rile you up, he knew nothing would happen. Save your outrage.

Can we be outraged that the (elected representatives in the Senate of the) GOP views tax cuts as more important than America living up to the idea that all Men are created equal?

343 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:28:45pm

re: #334 WindUpBird

Now I want to know what's in your garage

Gave it up when I got married. I had a '57 Chev and a '70-1/2 Camaro a long time ago. The best I do now is a Grand Cherokee that does a 7.5 0 to 100km/hr.

344 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:28:57pm

re: #341 engineer dog

me too!

alouette - what was your concentration?

Probability and statistics.

345 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:29:03pm

re: #336 brookly red

8 husky dogs!

You peeked.

346 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:30:54pm

re: #344 Alouette

Probability and statistics.

Now I'm drooling.

347 Dark_Falcon  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:32:27pm

re: #342 jamesfirecat

Can we be outraged that the (elected representatives in the Senate of the) GOP views tax cuts as more important than America living up to the idea that all Men are created equal?

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

348 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:36:56pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

It doesn't have to be. Even if being gay was a simple decision, systemic bigotry needs to be removed.

349 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:39:19pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

Dark, why would anyone choose to be homosexual?

If it was a choice why are there people who are bisexual and people who are only attracted to one other sex?

Do you honestly think people CHOOSE to be treated the way gays are in America?

I'll admit I don't have the scientific proof to back it up...

But to claim that so many people want so badly to be s*** on is insane...

Also I distinctly remember seeing a study that said if you're left handed/if your parents are that odds your odds of being gay slightly.

Which is interesting because, while left handedness is also linked to higher levels of testosterone (eat your heart out ladies) so it'd make sense that there would be more left handed lesbians, there are also more cases of left handed males being gay, which makes no sense if gayness was purely a matter of testosterone...

350 b_sharp  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:41:34pm

re: #349 jamesfirecat

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

Dark, why would anyone choose to be homosexual?

If it was a choice why are there people who are bisexual and people who are only attracted to one other sex?

Do you honestly think people CHOOSE to be treated the way gays are in America?

I'll admit I don't have the scientific proof to back it up...

But to claim that so many people want so badly to be s*** on is insane...

Also I distinctly remember seeing a study that said if you're left handed/if your parents are that odds your odds of being gay slightly.

Which is interesting because, while left handedness is also linked to higher levels of testosterone (eat your heart out ladies) so it'd make sense that there would be more left handed lesbians, there are also more cases of left handed males being gay, which makes no sense if gayness was purely a matter of testosterone...

If being heterosexual is something more than a choice, then being homosexual is more than a choice.

351 goddamnedfrank  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 7:54:44pm

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

It's endemic, it's been observed throughout the animal kingdom. It's also irrelevant, even if it was a choice, it's not but even if it was, it would be a perfectly valid and victimless one.

352 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:07:35pm

re: #349 jamesfirecat

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

Dark, why would anyone choose to be homosexual?

That's a stupid question you're asking. First of all people choose to do things because they can or mostly want to, and second of all how is someone's intimate life any of your business?

Do you honestly think people CHOOSE to be treated the way gays are in America?

I take it you've never been to Chelsea in New York City have you?

353 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 8:23:40pm

re: #352 yasharki

That's a stupid question you're asking. First of all people choose to do things because they can or mostly want to, and second of all how is someone's intimate life any of your business?

I take it you've never been to Chelsea in New York City have you?

No I haven't, but wow way to miss the majority of my post which was all about how I don't believe its a choice in the first place and thus was trying to back Dark into a philosophical corner by asking him a question that has no reasonable answer.

354 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:00:31pm

re: #353 jamesfirecat

No I haven't, but wow way to miss the majority of my post which was all about how I don't believe its a choice in the first place and thus was trying to back Dark into a philosophical corner by asking him a question that has no reasonable answer.

Hell of a way to present your viewpoint. Pardon me for not understanding, but the left-handed part, coupled with "If it was a choice" question... Mind bending stuff.

355 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 9:46:39pm

re: #354 yasharki

Hell of a way to present your viewpoint. Pardon me for not understanding, but the left-handed part, coupled with "If it was a choice" question... Mind bending stuff.

The point of the left handed stuff is to show that clearly it can't "just" be a choice, because there are certain groups that are more likely to be homosexuals than others.

Interestingly on average lesbians have more testosterone than your average woman and gay men less than average man.

Left handed women have more testosterone on average than right handed women and left handed men on average have more testosterone on average than right handed men.

But left handed men are still more likely to be gay than right handed men.

Which in my mind shows that there has to be some genetic factor beyond simple testosterone which determines sexuality.

In short I was trying to show why it isn't a choice.

Also I'd argue that at the moment "choosing to be gay" in todays' America is a lot like if a time traveler with a hologram watch went back to the 1950's in the south and decided that he'd project a hologram of himself that had black skin.

Why would someone do that unless they were a glutton for punishment?

Who wants to select themselves for punishment like that?

More to the point if you take the argument that it is a choice then this leads to an painful conclusion... all those guys who who got kicked out of the army under DADT must have "loved" being gay more than they did serving their country since otherwise they could have just "chosen" to be straight.


This is why to me the choice model simply does not hold water.

I don't believe that being gay is a choice.

I believe that something happens in our heads genetically when we're born and it determines if we're straight, homosexual or bi...

356 yasharki  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 10:06:55pm

re: #355 jamesfirecat

It would be nice if you provided references to studies, or pure statistical data you're leaning on while talking about left-handed people. As for tostesterone levels, doesn't it seem obvious (rather than just interesting) that gays and lesbians should have abnormal hormonal levels?

In any case I completely agree with your assertion that sexual orientation isn't driven by choice, but by physiology or something :)

357 jamesfirecat  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 10:12:47pm

re: #356 yasharki

It would be nice if you provided references to studies, or pure statistical data you're leaning on while talking about left-handed people. As for tostesterone levels, doesn't it seem obvious (rather than just interesting) that gays and lesbians should have abnormal hormonal levels?

In any case I completely agree with your assertion that sexual orientation isn't driven by choice, but by physiology or something :)

The abnormal levels is not what's surprising.

It's that given the way levels work with left handedness you'd expect there to be fewer gay men who are left handed than right handed.

So we're getting a result that is the opposite of what we should be seeing if testosterone alone was the deciding factor where men are concerned.

I got my facts out of a book a read a while ago but here is a start for some data...

[Link: www.psychologytoday.com...]

358 Summer Seale  Thu, Dec 9, 2010 10:16:47pm

Just had to say that I consider the Jensen speech from Network to be one of the best ever written and delivered.

Almost everyone remembers Network for the "I'm mad as Hell" speech, but as good as that scene is....it doesn't compare to what Jensen says to Beale, and how he says it.

That's the real performance in that movie for me. I think that people who only remember the crackpot moments are missing the point. =)

359 boredtechindenver  Fri, Dec 10, 2010 12:15:32am

re: #355 jamesfirecat

I don't believe that being gay is a choice.

I believe that something happens in our heads genetically when we're born and it determines if we're straight, homosexual or bi...

The reason so many Republicans/SoCons believe that homosexuality is a choice is because they are projecting. Show me an anti-gay SoCon Republican, and I will show you someone who continually and "accidentally" falls into anal sex, usually as a power bottom.

360 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 10, 2010 4:35:13am

re: #347 Dark_Falcon

They don't think that being homosexual is something someone is 'created' with. And it has not been proven that it is. There is evidence to support that theory, but it is not conclusive.

Orientation is not proven to be genetic. But whether it's genetic or developmental or something in between, there is no evidence it can be changed once it's fixed at whatever early moment (nor that it should be changed).

361 Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton  Fri, Dec 10, 2010 4:44:52am

re: #359 boredtechindenver

Permit me some speculation. I think this belief has partially to do with a significant amount of people being bisexual (to some degree) and willfully suppressing one side of their sexuality. They probably think that if they are (or were at some moment) capable of having attraction to both sexes, but can selectively suppress it, it makes them heterosexual and that they have made a "choice". They don't understand that there are 100% straight and 100% gay people who can't make such a choice, nor do they understand that their initial condition is not chosen either. As an illustration, there was a video on YT where an older anti-gay protester basically admitted that was capable of same-sex attraction but "made a choice", so he thinks everyone can.

362 sizzleRI  Fri, Dec 10, 2010 9:22:27am

re: #349 jamesfirecat

I know this thread is totally dead, but I am very sad to have missed it. I am a bisexual woman who has had relationships with both sexes. It is much easier to identify as a bisexual woman than as a bisexual man. A bi man is just assumed to be gay, by both gays and straights, and he gives up all heterosexual male privileges. That is a lot to forfeit if you can just pass. Bi women have it a little better, if you are attractive than guys treat it as hot but don't take it seriously. Women are less threatened by it than straight men are by gay men. And bi women have less to lose when they come out because they never had the benefits that being a heterosexual male in our society confers.


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