14th Amendment Under Attack in Arizona

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Today Arizona Republicans launched their first direct attack on the 14th amendment: Proposed Arizona law targets ‘birthright’ citizenship.

PHOENIX (Reuters) – Arizona Republicans are to introduce legislation on Thursday seeking to challenge the right to U.S. citizenship for the children of legal and illegal immigrants born in the state.

State Rep. John Kavanagh said Republicans would introduce two bills in the Arizona Legislature seeking to provoke a legal review of the 14th amendment to the Constitution, which anchors citizenship rights for the children of immigrants.

The immediate aim of the legislation “is to trigger … a Supreme Court review of the phrase ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ in the 14th amendment,” Kavanagh told Reuters in a telephone interview.

It ultimately seeks “to deny citizenship to any child born of parents who are not citizens of the United States, be they illegal aliens, or foreigners on business or for tourist purposes,” he added.

Also see
LGF Pages - Arizona lawmakers file 4 birthright bills

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330 comments
1 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:18:32pm

Good grief. With Jan Brewer as governor, it’s anyone’s guess how this will turn out.

2 Four More Tears  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:19:00pm

Wonder what Michelle Malkin thinks of all of this…

3 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:20:09pm

Meanwhile, Vitter and Rand Paul are proposing a Constitutional Amendment to do away with birthright citizenship.

Those who say the Constitution is under attack might be right. They’ve just mis-identified those doing the attacking.

4 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:20:24pm

the GOP battle cry
REPEAL! REPEAL!

5 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:20:43pm

Is this directly related to be a border state in that the citizens of Arizona see it as a problem, or is this just Whackos taking opportunity offered by a border state?

6 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:22:09pm

re: #1 marjoriemoon

Good grief. With Jan Brewer as governor, it’s anyone’s guess how this will turn out.

doesn’t matter what they do…it’s a dead end, a 1000 to one shot, a waste of taxpayers money and trust…I hate this shit, and I don’t even like the law

7 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:22:23pm

re: #2 JasonA

Wonder what Michelle Malkin thinks of all of this…

see Dave CHappelle doing the blind, black, white supremacist.

8 Four More Tears  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:23:02pm

re: #7 Dreggas

see Dave CHappelle doing the blind, black, white supremacist.

I’ve been here long enough to see that a few times. :)

9 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:23:22pm

re: #5 ggt

Is this directly related to be a border state in that the citizens of Arizona see it as a problem, or is this just Whackos taking opportunity offered by a border state?

Your answer, Madam:

Unlike with SB 1070, Arizona won’t be alone in this effort. Lawmakers from about a dozen states have united under State Legislators for Legal Immigration and are expected to consider identical birthright citizenship legislation in their states this year. However, Arizona seems to be the first state so far to actually introduce the bills.

Whackos meet opportunity, border not needed.

10 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:23:33pm

re: #8 JasonA

I’ve been here long enough to see that a few times. :)

pretty much sums up how Malkin would respond.

11 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:23:57pm

re: #6 albusteve

doesn’t matter what they do…it’s a dead end, a 1000 to one shot, a waste of taxpayers money and trust…I hate this shit, and I don’t even like the law

I think the key to the article is this:

The immediate aim of the legislation “is to trigger … a Supreme Court review of the phrase ‘subject to the jurisdiction thereof’ in the 14th amendment,” Kavanagh told Reuters in a telephone interview.

And I agree with you.

12 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:24:25pm

I rank Malkin down-there with Shrieking Harpy.

13 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:24:44pm

Logical extremism at work:

“Currently, if you have a child born to two alien parents, that person is believed to be a U.S. citizen,” says Randy Terrill, a Republican state representative in Oklahoma who is working on an anti-birthright bill. “When taken to its logical extreme, that would produce the absurd result that children of invading armies would be considered citizens of the U.S.”
[Link: www.npr.org…]
14 Four More Tears  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:25:03pm

I’d like a list of all the Amendments after the first two that the wingnuts actually like, please.

15 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:25:15pm

look for this to become a wedge issue if it gets any legs, fracturing the TP and stunning the GOP to it’s sense…I hope this is a bipartisan issue and maybe sticking their face in there will give them a black eye

16 jc717  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:26:09pm

Nice work boys. Way to reach out to the Hispanic vote.
The party tent is looking for and more like a pointed white hood…

17 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:26:24pm

Evil, depraved Republicans are trying to deny rights and liberties to minorities that they fear and hate.

What else is new?

18 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:26:29pm

///But keep in mind people Republicans are the one who cherish and respect the constitution unlike those Activist Democrats!

19 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:26:49pm

re: #15 albusteve

look for this to become a wedge issue if it gets any legs, fracturing the TP and stunning the GOP to it’s sense…I hope this is a bipartisan issue and maybe sticking their face in there will give them a black eye

The inevitable overreach has to happen somewhere. Maybe this will be it.

The TP mentality and sound logic have to collide at some point.

20 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:27:23pm

Party of Lincoln my ass.

21 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:27:40pm

My Page on this went up seconds before this post. My favorite quotation from it:

Rep. Albert Hale, D-Window Rock, a Navajo, said that under these bills he would be considered an “anchor baby” because Native Americans were not granted citizenship until 1924.

“My grandfather was not a citizen. My mother, born in 1919, was not a citizen,” he said. “So I am a child of a non-citizen and therefore illegal. Am I to be deported? And If I am, where are you going to deport me to?”

He warned that passing these bills would create a crisis of children “who are stateless and without a country.”

“This will create a class of people who are not welcome in the country where they are born,” he said. “This is not the Arizona I know. This is not the Arizona I want.”

22 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:27:44pm

re: #11 marjoriemoon

I think the key to the article is this:

And I agree with you.

yeah, well it’s not a judicial issue…more people fucking around with the system…it’s the law, and it’s steeped in tradition now and it probably should not be amended

23 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:27:55pm

re: #16 jc717

Nice work boys. Way to reach out to the Hispanic vote.
The party tent is looking for and more like a pointed white hood…

I regret I have only one ding to give :)

24 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:28:02pm

re: #3 makeitstop

Meanwhile, Vitter and Rand Paul are proposing a Constitutional Amendment to do away with birthright citizenship.

Those who say the Constitution is under attack might be right. They’ve just mis-identified those doing the attacking.

But it isn’t fascism when they do it. It isn’t racist when they do it. It’s fucking satire when they call for people to be shot. It’s a metaphor when they call for violent revolution. It isn’t corporate servitude at the expense of the average American, it’s good business.

25 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:28:41pm

So, how do they plan to enforce this? What shall we call the bureaucracy which is tasked with enforcing this law? “The Department of Birth Enforcement”? How about “Reproductive Crimes Commission”?

26 elizajane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:28:58pm

re: #1 marjoriemoon

Good grief. With Jan Brewer as governor, it’s anyone’s guess how this will turn out.

It’s not about Brewer, it’s about sending something to the Supreme Court and seeing if it flies. My guess: nope, not a chance.

Not only is it flagrantly unconstitutional; nobody in their right mind actually wants to create an entire class of de facto stateless aliens with absolutely no stake in the society in which they live. Look how that worked out in Germany with all the “guest workers” and their children and grandchildren who could never become Germans.

27 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:29:03pm

The Constitution is NOT a living document = wingnut hypocrisy.

28 darthstar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:03pm

By the way, for those of you who read the Dune series…doesn’t it look like Bachmann has been dipping into the Spice a little more than she should?

For comparison:
Image: Dune-miniseries.jpg

29 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:08pm

re: #11 marjoriemoon

I think the key to the article is this:

And I agree with you.

Here’s a quote from another sponsor:

“The court needs to rule on this so we can figure out how to treat these kids,” Gould said.

Gould, you monumental jerk. Some of us already know how to treat these kids.

30 jamesfirecat  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:11pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

So, how do they plan to enforce this? What shall we call the bureaucracy which is tasked with enforcing this law? “The Department of Birth Enforcement”? How about “Reproductive Crimes Commission”?

///”Reproductive Crimes Commission” you say? Excellent, those can be the same people who make sure that any woman who claims to have a miscarriage didn’t really have an abortion!

31 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:29pm

It seems that anyone who is not immune from US civil and criminal law would be “subject to the jurisdiction.”

32 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:37pm

re: #14 JasonA

I’d like a list of all the Amendments after the first two that the wingnuts actually like, please.

They aren’t so keen on the first either. You only have free speech if its approved Christian speech.

33 Four More Tears  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:30:50pm

re: #28 darthstar

By the way, for those of you who read the Dune series…doesn’t it look like Bachmann has been dipping into the Spice a little more than she should?

For comparison:
Image: Dune-miniseries.jpg

By wing alone I set my nut in motion…

34 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:31:30pm

re: #13 jaunte

Logical extremism at work:

Invading armies. Fear galore. gah

35 darthstar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:31:39pm

re: #29 wrenchwench

Some of us already know how to treat these kids.

Like indentured servants? /// Sorry, I had my McCain hat on when I was writing that.

36 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:32:19pm

re: #28 darthstar

So exactly how did she show signs of becoming more aware? unless you mean she is a spice addicted chimp.

OMG that is is.

Bachmann is Reverend Mother Bobo

37 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:32:46pm

re: #33 JasonA

By wing alone I set my nut in motion…

Again, what exactly is a GOP mentat?

38 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:32:47pm

re: #13 jaunte

Logical extremism at work:

“When taken to its logical extreme, that would produce the absurd result that children of invading armies would be considered citizens of the U.S.”

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

39 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:33:43pm

re: #22 albusteve

yeah, well it’s not a judicial issue…more people fucking around with the system…it’s the law, and it’s steeped in tradition now and it probably should not be amended

This is why I’m actually frightened about the election of people like Paul and Bachmann. They’re morons. They hardly seem to know the laws of this land or how they work. I always believed in the idea of the “melting pot” America and I’ll go to my grave believing. I thought we all shared that, or certainly most of us. But with the teabaggers in positions of power (governors, too) it’s just getting freaking scary.

40 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:33:49pm

re: #38 wrenchwench

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

I’m still trying to figure-out who the “invading armies” are?

41 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:33:57pm

FUCK the GOP.

Sideways.

With a copy of Origin of the Species.

42 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:34:23pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

Again, what exactly is a GOP mentat?

Guy with a chalkboard.

43 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:34:51pm

re: #42 Decatur Deb

Guy with a chalkboard.

And Paul fears the Golden Path…

44 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:34:57pm

If an invading army is here long enough to have significant numbers of children, we have bigger problems than determining who is a legally-born citizen.

45 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:36:01pm

re: #43 LudwigVanQuixote

And Paul fears the Golden Path…

Boehner gives water.

46 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:36:03pm

meanwhile…
we have a budget crisis
an employment crisis
an energy crisis
a war in a distant land
health care to sort out
so what do they do?…nit pick the Bill of Rights

roger that

47 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:36:23pm

I can’t wait to hear which Tea Bagger claims the Founding Fathers settled citizenship.

48 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:36:24pm

re: #39 marjoriemoon

This is why I’m actually frightened about the election of people like Paul and Bachmann. They’re morons. They hardly seem to know the laws of this land or how they work. I always believed in the idea of the “melting pot” America and I’ll go to my grave believing. I thought we all shared that, or certainly most of us. But with the teabaggers in positions of power (governors, too) it’s just getting freaking scary.

Melting Pot, I guess, means that the immigrants learn English and try to assimilate. Nevermind, that it isn’t until the 2nd or 3rd generation that the family is fully assimilated. By the 4th, they are reading books, going thru family pictures and records and trying to learn their geneology and the culture of their ancestors.

49 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:10pm

re: #38 wrenchwench

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

OMG! They’re here!!11!!1!

50 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:18pm

re: #46 albusteve

meanwhile…
we have a budget crisis
an employment crisis
an energy crisis
a war in a distant land
health care to sort out
so what do they do?…nit pick the Bill of Rights

roger that

Why do you hate America?
/

51 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:35pm

re: #26 elizajane

It’s not about Brewer, it’s about sending something to the Supreme Court and seeing if it flies. My guess: nope, not a chance.

Not only is it flagrantly unconstitutional; nobody in their right mind actually wants to create an entire class of de facto stateless aliens with absolutely no stake in the society in which they live. Look how that worked out in Germany with all the “guest workers” and their children and grandchildren who could never become Germans.

They have a next step they’re not talking about. They would kick them out. Where are they going? They don’t care. People have been ordered out of countries before, just not this one.

I would believe the talk about “this is going to go no where” but then they passed SB 1070 and now I have no clue what’s going on.

How is this getting to the supreme court without going through the governor?

52 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:41pm

re: #39 marjoriemoon

This is why I’m actually frightened about the election of people like Paul and Bachmann. They’re morons. They hardly seem to know the laws of this land or how they work. I always believed in the idea of the “melting pot” America and I’ll go to my grave believing. I thought we all shared that, or certainly most of us. But with the teabaggers in positions of power (governors, too) it’s just getting freaking scary.

No marjoree, that America is what Americans like my grandfather fought for in the war. That America is anathema to the GOP. It is one of actual liberty, civility, education, achievement and progress.

To the GOP, you are a whiny, elitist, over-educated, commie, traitor, Alinsky, Jew.

53 bratwurst  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:53pm

Would SOMEBODY please stop for a moment and think about the jihad terror babies? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THINK OF THE JIHAD TERROR BABIES!/

54 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:37:56pm

re: #45 Decatur Deb

Boehner gives water.

Alas only one upding…

55 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:38:28pm

re: #40 ggt

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

I’m still trying to figure-out who the “invading armies” are?

The melanin enriched masses.

56 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:38:45pm

re: #50 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why do you hate America?
/

same as anybody else…because I can’t have my own way!

57 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:38:47pm

re: #49 publicityStunted

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

OMG! They’re here!!11!!1!

To be fair, I still cringe at the Item of Issue: “Maternity Battle Dress Uniform”.

58 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:39:22pm

re: #51 marjoriemoon

They have a next step they’re not talking about. They would kick them out. Where are they going? They don’t care. People have been ordered out of countries before, just not this one.

I would believe the talk about “this is going to go no where” but then they passed SB 1070 and now I have no clue what’s going on.

How is this getting to the supreme court without going through the governor?

I think the concept is that we would do the same as other countries who don’t have the “born here and you are automatically a citizen” clause. I don’t see how it would work, as we can’t even document who is here. The undocumented babies would end up being a separate class of non-citizens. NOT GOOD.

59 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:39:29pm

re: #53 bratwurst

Would SOMEBODY please stop for a moment and think about the jihad terror babies? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THINK OF THE JIHAD TERROR BABIES!/

We all know that children always turn out to share exactly the same beliefs as their parents, so its only right to shun and fear them.

60 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:40:08pm

re: #15 albusteve

look for this to become a wedge issue if it gets any legs, fracturing the TP and stunning the GOP to it’s sense…I hope this is a bipartisan issue and maybe sticking their face in there will give them a black eye

Looks to me like wishful thinking. This issue will play very will with large segments of Republicans - as have other issues related to illegal immigration.

The hope will be that this issue, as well as others raised by the extremists Republicans are pandering to, will split independents from the Republican Party.

61 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:40:27pm

re: #55 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The melanin enriched masses.

Ah, skin color is their uniform.

got it.

gah!

62 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:41:15pm

Hey GOP morons: If illegal immigrants aren’t “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”, then we can’t arrest them. They can wander across your lawn with their pants down, cook menudo in your kitchen, and spit in your scotch.

Think for a goddamn minute you assholes.

63 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:41:32pm

The Republicans love the Constitution so much they keep trying to change it.

(December 1st, 2010) In an effort to block all or part of President Obama’s health reform laws, Rep. Rob Bishop (R-UT) today introduced a proposed amendment to the Constitution that would allow states to veto federal legislation.

As introduced to the House of Representatives, the so-called Repeal Amendment would drastically change how the US government operates by giving the states the authority to repeal any federal legislation that two-thirds of the states agreed to repeal.[Link: www.rawstory.com…]

64 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:41:41pm

well I decided to actually read the blurb…I see nothing about this thing being retroactive…I mean that’s utterly impossible anyway

65 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:41:54pm

re: #58 ggt

I think it’s important to note that those countries without birthright citizenship— i.e. almost every country in Europe— are the ones struggling the most with assimilation.

66 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:42:36pm

re: #38 wrenchwench

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

67 makeitstop  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:43:41pm

re: #63 jaunte

The Republicans love the Constitution so much they keep trying to change it.

Some days I want to gouge out my eyes so I don’t have to read some of this stupid shit.

68 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:43:54pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

Format screw-up there.
The last question is the part that’s mine.

69 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:43:58pm

re: #48 ggt

Melting Pot, I guess, means that the immigrants learn English and try to assimilate. Nevermind, that it isn’t until the 2nd or 3rd generation that the family is fully assimilated. By the 4th, they are reading books, going thru family pictures and records and trying to learn their geneology and the culture of their ancestors.

But I think you can assimilate and keep your roots. All the little people in my family today know where they came from, who they are, and the sacrifices their “greats” made for them. Yet they’re just regular American kids in every other way.

70 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:43:59pm

Since they seem to be so concerned about the religious flavor of groups of immigrants. Tea Partiers should stop and realize that the “south of the border” immigrants are by-and-large Christian-and anti-abortion.

Geez, they are contradicting themselves double and backwards.

71 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:44:03pm

re: #26 elizajane

nobody in their right mind actually wants to create an entire class of de facto stateless aliens with absolutely no stake in the society in which they live.

The first mistake is to confuse these people with people in their right mind.

72 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:44:34pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

We’ll be taking advantage of that undefended border any minute now…

73 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:44:59pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

I know!

74 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:45:06pm

re: #62 Obdicut

Hey GOP morons: If illegal immigrants aren’t “subject to the jurisdiction thereof”, then we can’t arrest them. They can wander across your lawn with their pants down, cook menudo in your kitchen, and spit in your scotch.

Think for a goddamn minute you assholes.

Ever had menudo?

75 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:45:34pm

re: #60 Talking Point Detective

Looks to me like wishful thinking. This issue will play very will with large segments of Republicans - as have other issues related to illegal immigration.

The hope will be that this issue, as well as others raised by the extremists Republicans are pandering to, will split independents from the Republican Party.

LOL, you are sure determined to presume what people you disagree with will think…predicting the future, as popular as it is here, is a very trick business…keep a scorecard and see how you do, probably not better than half the time

76 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:45:37pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

Well, the Mexicans are already here, so they must be referring to the Canadian Maternity Army.

77 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:45:42pm

re: #72 publicityStunted

We’ll be taking advantage of that undefended border any minute now…

LOL.

78 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:45:49pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout


Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

First it was the Spanish and the Dutch, with the French and English close on their heels, dragging Africans and Asians along to do the hardest work, shortly thereafter followed by Germans and most of the other central Europeans. It just never stops./

79 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:46:10pm

re: #74 Talking Point Detective

I can’t stand the texture of tripe. I’ve had it, but shuddered. I can’t eat calamari either.

80 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:46:15pm

re: #76 wrenchwench

Well, the Mexicans are already here, so they must be referring to the Canadian Maternity Army.

Yes, See what publicitystunted linked:
re: #72 publicityStunted

We’ll be taking advantage of that undefended border any minute now…

81 Lidane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:46:29pm

re: #14 JasonA

I’d like a list of all the Amendments after the first two that the wingnuts actually like, please.

The jury’s still out on them liking the First Amendment. The Second and Tenth seem to be the only ones they give a shit about.

82 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:47:11pm

re: #81 Lidane

They like the first amendment for themselves a lot.

83 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:47:17pm

re: #72 publicityStunted

We’ll be taking advantage of that undefended border any minute now…

Wait a few decades and they’ll be trying to stop us sneaking into the balmy lands of Manitoba

84 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:47:24pm

re: #65 Obdicut

I think it’s important to note that those countries without birthright citizenship— i.e. almost every country in Europe— are the ones struggling the most with assimilation.

I think that an American baby born in Mexico deserves citizenship….I would love to see this glaring difference addressed and changed….I’m all about fair

85 wrenchwench  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:48:33pm

Time to go home. It’s towards Arizona, but not that close.

Later, lizards.

86 dragonfire1981  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:48:41pm

I am a legal resident. I paid all the fees, filled out all the forms and jumped through all the hoops. To think these people want to decide that my kids will not automatically be citizens it sickens me. Maybe I should throw my green card in the garbage, it seems like it’s worthless anyway.

I hate the idea of being branded a foreigner for life. The idea that regardless of the fact I married an American woman, made plenty of American friends and embraced all this country has to offer I am still an alien, never to be on the same plateau as a born citizen.

This is not freedom. This is not the America the founders wanted. This is not the America we need today. This is fear driven discrimination and it’s completely wrong on multiple levels.

87 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:48:57pm

re: #83 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Wait a few decades and they’ll be trying to stop us sneaking into the balmy lands of Manitoba

54’ 40” or shite.

88 Romantic Heretic  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:49:06pm

re: #37 LudwigVanQuixote

Again, what exactly is a GOP mentat?

An oxymoron?

89 Lidane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:49:23pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

YWho, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

Who else? Scary brown people who speak Spanish.

Those brown people are good enough to hire as day laborers and construction workers and maids, but fuck ‘em if they want citizenship or any chance at a real life.

90 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:49:24pm

re: #66 reine.de.tout

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

Who, exactly, do they envision that’s going to invade us?

Mexicans & radical Islamists.

FEAR! enjoy it’s beautiful scent.

91 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:49:53pm

re: #67 makeitstop

Some days I want to gouge out my eyes so I don’t have to read some of this stupid shit.

ahahaha!…there is some good satire in there…
“continuing a baffling wave of self mutilation, several more liberals around the Oxnard area have reportedly….”

92 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:50:10pm

re: #75 albusteve

LOL, you are sure determined to presume what people you disagree with will think…predicting the future, as popular as it is here, is a very trick business…keep a scorecard and see how you do, probably not better than half the time

Yeah - predicting the future is hard. But can you think of one illegal-immigration related issue that split the Republican Party in any significant way? How about any issue related to Muslims? How about any issue related to welfare?

Demonizing groups of people, particularly poor people, plays very well with the GOP. It has for a very, very long time.

And you were predicting that this would cause a split in the GOP, when there is no historical precedent.

93 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:50:37pm

re: #78 jaunte

First it was the Spanish and the Dutch, with the French and English close on their heels, dragging Africans and Asians along to do the hardest work, shortly thereafter followed by Germans and most of the other central Europeans. It just never stops./

My part of the country, it was the Spanish/French/English tossing us back and forth for awhile, while the expat French in parts of Canada came down and just dealt with whatever, plus the Africans who mixed in with the European French & Spanish, giving us our Creole culture … whew. We were already a mixed up bunch, have been for some time.

94 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:51:13pm

Remember the ZETAS

95 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:51:31pm

In my perfect world, people would take the resources they are using to stop illegal immigration and use it to help Mexico be a place people actually WANT to live.

Scary shit going on down there, I think it’s going to create bigger problems for us than “anchor” babies.

96 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:51:38pm

re: #79 Obdicut

I can’t stand the texture of tripe. I’ve had it, but shuddered. I can’t eat calamari either.

well what do you know?…my gastronomical mate!….anybody that would eat a tentacle needs their head examined

97 Lidane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:52:09pm

re: #93 reine.de.tout

We were already a mixed up bunch, have been for some time.

Pfft. Everyone knows the only real Americans are white.

/wingnut

98 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:52:11pm

re: #82 Obdicut

They like the first amendment for themselves a lot.

And now…

SPUDNUT!

99 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:52:39pm

re: #95 ggt

In my perfect world, people would take the resources they are using to stop illegal immigration and use it to help Mexico be a place people actually WANT to live.

Scary shit going on down there, I think it’s going to create bigger problems for us than “anchor” babies.

Would love to, but I’m afraid we can’t help what’s wrong with Mexico.

100 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:52:48pm

re: #86 dragonfire1981
To my knowledge since your wife is an American your kids are Americans. In my view you are more of an American because you choose this country. It is a pity that some very vocal believe otherwise.

101 avanti  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:52:49pm

That’s why I like the idea of things like the dream act. If a kid is brought in my his parents illegally at a young age, than gets a college degree, why should he/she face deportation and use their skills to compete against the USA. The same for those that choose to serve in the military, give them a road to citizenship.

102 Jaerik  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:53:36pm

This doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell.

SCOTUS has never wavered on the question of birthright citizenship. Ever. Even with courts just as conservative as this one.

103 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:53:41pm

re: #84 albusteve

I think that an American baby born in Mexico deserves citizenship…I would love to see this glaring difference addressed and changed…I’m all about fair

Um, Mexico already has that in their Constitution, Steve.

Article 30. Mexican nationality is acquired by birth or by naturalization:

A.Mexicans by birth are:
I.Those born in the territory of the Republic, regardless of the nationality of their parents:
II.Those born in a foreign country of Mexican parents; of a Mexican father and a foreign mother; or of a Mexican mother and an unknown father;
III.Those born on Mexican vessels or airships, either war or merchant vessels.
B.Mexicans by naturalization are:
I.Foreigners who obtain letters of naturalization from the Secretariat of Foreign Relations;
II.A foreign woman who marries a Mexican man and has or establishes her domicile within the natio

104 Lidane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:53:43pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Would love to, but I’m afraid we can’t help what’s wrong with Mexico.

Not without invading them wholesale and even then, the cartels are heavily armed and won’t give up that easily.

Mexico’s problems are much deeper and more entrenched than most people really realize, and any change will have to come from within.

105 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:53:57pm

re: #79 Obdicut

I can’t stand the texture of tripe. I’ve had it, but shuddered. I can’t eat calamari either.

I live for squid. Intestines I can do without. I still remember he smell of my friend’s parents cooking chitterlings from when I was a kid - and that was a long time ago.

106 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:54:06pm

re: #99 reine.de.tout

Would love to, but I’m afraid we can’t help what’s wrong with Mexico.

Short of invading an allied sovreign state “for their own good”

107 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:54:38pm

re: #102 Jaerik

This doesn’t have a snowball’s chance in hell.

SCOTUS has never wavered on the question of birthright citizenship. Ever. Even with courts just as conservative as this one.

I’m not taking that bet till I talk to the Kock brothers.

108 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:54:41pm

re: #101 avanti

That’s why I like the idea of things like the dream act. If a kid is brought in my his parents illegally at a young age, than gets a college degree, why should he/she face deportation and use their skills to compete against the USA. The same for those that choose to serve in the military, give them a road to citizenship.

The Dream Act is compassion and common sense.

109 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:55:03pm

re: #93 reine.de.tout

My part of the country, it was the Spanish/French/English tossing us back and forth for awhile, while the expat French in parts of Canada came down and just dealt with whatever, plus the Africans who mixed in with the European French & Spanish, giving us our Creole culture … whew. We were already a mixed up bunch, have been for some time.

Also can’t forget the Germans in the 1700s who settled Des Allemands, La.

A seriously mixed up bunch, we are.

110 Lidane  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:55:25pm

re: #108 Stanley Sea

The Dream Act is compassion and common sense.

Sure, if you’re rational. If you’re a teabagger and/or wingnut, it’s amnesty for illegals and one step closer to the Scary Brown People Invasion.

111 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:55:34pm

re: #95 ggt

In my perfect world, people would take the resources they are using to stop illegal immigration and use it to help Mexico be a place people actually WANT to live.

Scary shit going on down there, I think it’s going to create bigger problems for us than “anchor” babies.

that is just off the Idealism Scale….there is no way we can solve Mexicos social problems, especially when unofficial policy is to export those problems north

112 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:55:37pm

re: #101 avanti

That’s why I like the idea of things like the dream act. If a kid is brought in my his parents illegally at a young age, than gets a college degree, why should he/she face deportation and use their skills to compete against the USA. The same for those that choose to serve in the military, give them a road to citizenship.

If we’ve paid for their schooling and medical care up to the point of college, why would we waste our investment by forcing that person to leave the country regardless of a college education or military service?

We have a large hispanic population where I live. I see more good than bad.

113 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:56:09pm

re: #106 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Short of invading an allied sovreign state “for their own good”

It would be the third or fourth time.

114 reine.de.tout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:56:30pm

re: #101 avanti

That’s why I like the idea of things like the dream act. If a kid is brought in my his parents illegally at a young age, than gets a college degree, why should he/she face deportation and use their skills to compete against the USA. The same for those that choose to serve in the military, give them a road to citizenship.

I agree.
And it isn’t that I care if a college graduate goes somewhere else to work, it’s not really competition against the US. It’s that we should be eager to take advantage of whatever talent lands here.

115 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:57:00pm

re: #105 Talking Point Detective

I live for squid. Intestines I can do without. I still remember he smell of my friend’s parents cooking chitterlings from when I was a kid - and that was a long time ago.

Anything that remotely looks like and insect is not going on my plate!

116 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:57:00pm

re: #113 Decatur Deb

It would be the third or fourth time.

Like communism, we’ll get it right this next time, we promise.

117 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:57:22pm

re: #107 Decatur Deb

I’m not taking that bet till I talk to the Kock brothers.

Sometimes Preview Is My Friend, and sometimes I just ignore him.

118 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:57:41pm

re: #92 Talking Point Detective

Yeah - predicting the future is hard. But can you think of one illegal-immigration related issue that split the Republican Party in any significant way? How about any issue related to Muslims? How about any issue related to welfare?

Demonizing groups of people, particularly poor people, plays very well with the GOP. It has for a very, very long time.

And you were predicting that this would cause a split in the GOP, when there is no historical precedent.

what?…you think I hate brown people?…you think I hate Hispanics because I don’t like the law?…so you think I’m the only person that thinks this way if I don’t?…I don’t demonize anybody, except Eagles fans

119 palomino  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:58:05pm

This is dog whistle stuff for those who don’t like current demographic trends. People who see non-white immigrants as less “real American.” People like Tancredo, George Allen and lots of the tea partiers.

The reactionaries will lose in the long run, as the numbers dictate. When AZ is a majority Hispanic state (in about 30 years), lots of this rhetoric will be obsolete. But there’s gonna be a lot of kicking and screaming along the way.

120 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:58:05pm

re: #111 albusteve

that is just off the Idealism Scale…there is no way we can solve Mexicos social problems, especially when unofficial policy is to export those problems north

Like I said, “In my Perfect World”.

121 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:58:09pm

re: #117 Decatur Deb

Sometimes Preview Is My Friend, and sometimes I just ignore him.

I don’t really see a problem with your initial turn of phrase.

122 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:58:52pm

re: #115 ggt

Anything that remotely looks like and insect is not going on my plate!

No crab, no lobster?

123 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:59:13pm

re: #103 Obdicut

Um, Mexico already has that in their Constitution, Steve.

my rage has blinded me…my bad

124 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:59:19pm

re: #122 Obdicut

No crab, no lobster?

NO!

125 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 5:59:59pm

re: #115 ggt

Anything that remotely looks like and insect is not going on my plate!

If you ever get to Philly, check out Dimitri’s (the one in South Philly, not the one in Rittenhouse Square). You’ll do a 180 on squid and octopus. Guaranteed.

126 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:00:22pm

Let’s not pretend this is really about immigration. They’re not worried about Canadians here. If they thought they could get away with including the term “non-White” they would have.

127 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:01:29pm

re: #125 Talking Point Detective

If you ever get to Philly, check out Dimitri’s (the one in South Philly, not the one in Rittenhouse Square). You’ll do a 180 on squid and octopus. Guaranteed.

doubtful.

128 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:01:57pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Let’s not pretend this is really about immigration. They’re not worried about Canadians here. If they thought they could get away with including the term “non-White” they would have.

I think they would use the term mud people if their lawyers didn’t warn them not to.

129 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:12pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Let’s not pretend this is really about immigration. They’re not worried about Canadians here. If they thought they could get away with including the term “non-White” they would have.

Whew. Thanks, half the decent pubs were about to lose their bartenders and waitresses.

130 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:22pm

OT: A tweet from the outrageous islamsts from the Ground Zero Mega-Mosque of Triumph…
Park51

#Gay man in #Uganda killed. Shockingly sad. My #Muslim #faith calls me to speak up 4 #freedom & #dignity 4 all, #hatred for none.
131 Interesting Times  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:26pm

re: #115 ggt

Anything that remotely looks like and insect is not going on my plate!

What insect? :)

Calamari

Onion rings

132 jaunte  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:27pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

“Invading armies,” whistled Randy Terrill…

133 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:35pm

re: #63 jaunte

The Republicans love the Constitution so much they keep trying to change it.

What was that I saw? Civil rights flying out the window?

134 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:02:45pm
@alihabibi1: CNN confirms internet is down in ALL of Egypt. Egypt now is total blackhole… plz spread the word #Egypt #jan25 #25jan #sidibouzid less than 20 seconds ago via web


Shit just got real.

135 Talking Point Detective  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:03:00pm

re: #118 albusteve

what?…you think I hate brown people?…you think I hate Hispanics because I don’t like the law?…so you think I’m the only person that thinks this way if I don’t?…I don’t demonize anybody, except Eagles fans

I don’t assume any of that about you. But the point stands, demonizing illegal immigrants has never split the Republican Party.

And I gotta leave - I’ll take it up with you about the Eagle’s fans shot at another time.

136 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:03:36pm

FBI serves 40 search warrants in Anonymous crackdown

Word of the crackdown first surfaced in the US four weeks ago. Metropolitan Police in the UK confirmed their investigation in mid December.

Anonymous members have said the assaults were in retaliation for attempts to stifle the secret-spilling website. Group members on Thursday stepped up the bluster with a press release declaring war on UK authorities for having the nerve to enforce their country’s laws.

The FBI was undeterred.

“The FBI also is reminding the public that facilitating or conducting a DDoS attack is illegal, punishable by up to 10 years in prison, as well as exposing participants to significant civil liability,” the agency said in a press release.

137 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:04:27pm

re: #133 marjoriemoon
It looks that way. This is very sad.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:05:34pm

re: #5 ggt

Is this directly related to be a border state in that the citizens of Arizona see it as a problem, or is this just Whackos taking opportunity offered by a border state?

Speaking as a citizen of a border state, I’ve never been entirely sure about that one…

139 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:05:37pm

re: #134 BishopX
OMG. That is very bad.

140 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:05:59pm

re: #136 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

FBI serves 40 search warrants in Anonymous crackdown

…And Barrett Brown has free legal services unlike the children he encourages.

141 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:06:44pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Let’s not pretend this is really about immigration. They’re not worried about Canadians here. If they thought they could get away with including the term “non-White” they would have.

I don’t know…I do not see such widespread bigotry an hate here in New Mexico, but I suppose that AZ might be different, after all NM is the homeland of Hispanics on this entire continent

142 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:06:48pm

re: #14 JasonA

I’d like a list of all the Amendments after the first two that the wingnuts actually like, please.

They’re dicey about certain clauses of the First.

143 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:07:08pm

re: #126 Killgore Trout

Let’s not pretend this is really about immigration. They’re not worried about Canadians here. If they thought they could get away with including the term “non-White” they would have.

Well, if it was Serbians coming into the country in the same numbers and having the same crime rate, etc… ., yes, it would be about immigration. We’ve seen it with every major influx of immigrants -Irish are what mostly come to mind.

I think the fact that Mexico is so close and there are a faction of Hispanics who talk about “Reconquista” and drug-crime is such an issue, just fan the flames.

The world is changing fast, and people are having a hard time with it. I think this is a big reaction to some major paradigm shifts—many minds can’t cope so they are digging their heals in and trying to create a vision of the past they’d like to return to.

Not excusing, just trying to understand. These people need therapy and/or meds.

I have no plans to go with them.

144 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:07:56pm

re: #131 publicityStunted

What insect? :)

Calamari

Onion rings

faux!…I call bullshit

145 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:08:09pm

Warning: Graphic footage

Eygptian Protestor shot outside Cairo

Youtube Video
146 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:09:22pm

I think the likely outcome of the 14 amendment nonsense is that it will be a huge fund-raiser for the tea-baggers, and not much else will come of it. That’s bad enough.

147 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:10:32pm

re: #118 albusteve

what?…you think I hate brown people?…you think I hate Hispanics because I don’t like the law?…so you think I’m the only person that thinks this way if I don’t?…I don’t demonize anybody, except Eagles fans

HEY!

148 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:10:46pm

re: #52 LudwigVanQuixote

To the GOP, you are a whiny, elitist, over-educated, commie, traitor, Alinsky, Soros-funded Jew.

FTFY

149 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:10:50pm

re: #134 BishopX

Slightly more info on Egypt’s internet: Linky

Also, the same article notes that the Muslim Brotherhood has announced they are joining the Friday protests. They had distanced themselves from all of the previous marches.

150 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:10:58pm

re: #143 ggt

Well, if it was Serbians coming into the country in the same numbers and having the same crime rate, etc… ., yes, it would be about immigration. We’ve seen it with every major influx of immigrants -Irish are what mostly come to mind.

I think the fact that Mexico is so close and there are a faction of Hispanics who talk about “Reconquista” and drug-crime is such an issue, just fan the flames.

The world is changing fast, and people are having a hard time with it. I think this is a big reaction to some major paradigm shifts—many minds can’t cope so they are digging their heals in and trying to create a vision of the past they’d like to return to.

Not excusing, just trying to understand. These people need therapy and/or meds.

I have no plans to go with them.

I think that is a decent assessment…a lot of truth in there

151 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:11:08pm

re: #146 daddylawbucks

I think the likely outcome of the 14 amendment nonsense is that it will be a huge fund-raiser for the tea-baggers, and not much else will come of it. That’s bad enough.

It’s a states-rights thing—in their minds. Yes, states-rights are an important facet of our “separation of powers” concept, people don’t realize how unequal rights were before the 14th amendment.

They don’t know history … .

152 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:11:38pm

re: #150 albusteve

I think that is a decent assessment…a lot of truth in there

thank you

153 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:12:20pm

Word from some posts is due to the anouncment of major protests, the Egyptian government has shut down all services, water, power, internet, etc

Internet Access & SMS Blocked in Egypt as Protests Escalate

Sebone, a major Egyptian service provider based in Italy, is reporting that no Internet traffic is entering or exiting the country as of 12:30 AM Egyptian time. Reporters and citizens on-the-ground are also reporting that they are experiencing Internet and SMS outages.

154 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:12:36pm

re: #145 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Warning: Graphic footage

Eygptian Protestor shot outside Cairo


[Video]

sniped…a pretty good shot too, judging the range….motherfuckers

155 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:12:48pm

re: #86 dragonfire1981

I am a legal resident. I paid all the fees, filled out all the forms and jumped through all the hoops. To think these people want to decide that my kids will not automatically be citizens it sickens me. Maybe I should throw my green card in the garbage, it seems like it’s worthless anyway.

I hate the idea of being branded a foreigner for life. The idea that regardless of the fact I married an American woman, made plenty of American friends and embraced all this country has to offer I am still an alien, never to be on the same plateau as a born citizen.

This is not freedom. This is not the America the founders wanted. This is not the America we need today. This is fear driven discrimination and it’s completely wrong on multiple levels.

Hear hear! I know lots of new Americans (I live in S Florida) and it always makes me tear up. Not just to listen to their journeys in becoming a citizen, but that they put up with the struggles because it was so important to be here. Folks from Haiti, Cuba, Venezuela, even a couple Palestinians! New Americans are always the most patriotic, too.

156 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:13:00pm

re: #149 BishopX

Slightly more info on Egypt’s internet: Linky

Also, the same article notes that the Muslim Brotherhood has announced they are joining the Friday protests. They had distanced themselves from all of the previous marches.

I’m very concerned about the possibilities in Egypt. I’d love to cheer on the protesters but I can’t bring myself to do it. I’ll just sit back and hope for the best.

157 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:13:05pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
This is a very bad thing.

158 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:13:16pm

re: #153 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Any guess on how the next 24 hours will go?

159 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:13:37pm

re: #154 albusteve

sniped…a pretty good shot too, judging the range…motherfuckers

Either good or a freak chance.

160 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:14:56pm

“I suspect the internet cutoff is just a fraction of what the government has in store for Friday,” CNN’s Ben Wederman, who is on the ground in Egypt, said on Twitter earlier today.

161 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:14:58pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

The Iranians are taking advantage of the distraction to kill off Green Party leaders:

[Link: commonamericanjournal.com…]

The Iranian regime continues to eliminate leading figures from the 2009 social protest movement, known as the “green wave”, causing few ripples across the world. The authorities confirmed that this morning two political activists, Jafar Kazemi and Mohammad Ali Hajaghaei, were hanged, the Tehran prosecutor’s office announced. They had been arrested during the demonstrations against President Ahmadinejad’s re-election. US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton had urged Iranian authorities to show clemency but to no avail.

162 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:15:01pm

re: #156 Killgore Trout

I’m hoping that the protests will end up creating a new youth movement…the demographics seems right for someone to stand up and say “never trust anyone over 30”.

163 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:15:12pm

How would you define a “good outcome” in Egypt? Not overtly hostile to the US or Israel is the best I can think of.

164 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:15:44pm

re: #161 Obdicut

The Iranians are taking advantage of the distraction to kill off Green Party leaders:

[Link: commonamericanjournal.com…]

Bummer.

165 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:17:13pm

re: #162 BishopX

I’m hoping that the protests will end up creating a new youth movement…the demographics seems right for someone to stand up and say “never trust anyone over 30”.

Either yesterday or this morning a Lizard posted some demographics of the population of Egypt. Majority were under 30 and uneduacated. More like fodder for a charismatic leader than a group that could lead the country into a better future.

166 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:17:36pm

re: #25 Fozzie Bear

So, how do they plan to enforce this? What shall we call the bureaucracy which is tasked with enforcing this law? “The Department of Birth Enforcement”? How about “Reproductive Crimes Commission”?

We call the bureaucracy the “about to be turned over by the supreme court, you racist hicks can shove that right up your trucker caps” department :D

167 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:17:43pm

Apparently the internet went down shortly after AP posted the footage of the shooting.

168 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:17:49pm

re: #160 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

“I suspect the internet cutoff is just a fraction of what the government has in store for Friday,” CNN’s Ben Wederman, who is on the ground in Egypt, said on Twitter earlier today.

just like Iran, the key to the thing is the military, they hold all the cards

169 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:18:08pm

re: #163 daddylawbucks

How would you define a “good outcome” in Egypt? Not overtly hostile to the US or Israel is the best I can think of.

I think it would be nice to see a peaceful, secular and free democracy but I think that’s probably pretty unlikely.

170 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:18:12pm

re: #101 avanti

That’s why I like the idea of things like the dream act. If a kid is brought in my his parents illegally at a young age, than gets a college degree, why should he/she face deportation and use their skills to compete against the USA. The same for those that choose to serve in the military, give them a road to citizenship.

Of course. But they killed the Dream Act. They don’t want immigrants to be citizens. Forget that they all came from immigrants… What conclusion can we draw about them?

171 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:18:57pm

re: #163 daddylawbucks

Any stable democracy is a good thing IMO…particularly if they can bring the moderate islamists to the table. The US has enough money on the table that any sane government is going to think twice about getting radical, and the best case scenario for the dispersal of the radical islamist thought in the ME is the emergence of a more moderate political movement.

172 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:19:01pm

re: #166 WindUpBird

We call the bureaucracy the “about to be turned over by the supreme court, you racist hicks can shove that right up your trucker caps” department :D


Ministry of Virtue and Vice

173 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:19:57pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout
I would like to see that too. Personally I doubt that it will happen.

174 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:20:14pm

re: #161 Obdicut

Charles, that link to Iran executing Green Party leaders goes to a site of dubious quality, but the story is real. I’ve made a page with an actual journalistic source. Feel free to delete my comment if you like.

175 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:20:23pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

Right! and Dorothy will be back from Oz…….. My concern it that the state will become a radicalized bastion of the Muslim Brotherhood or some other group of religious zealots. A moderate, secular dictatorship is not really a bad outcome, all considered.

176 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:21:03pm

Its going to be really bloody

Egypt deploys special force ahead of mass rallies

Update at 7:35 p.m. ET: Egypt’s government has disrupted Internet service and deployed an elite special operations counterterrorism force head of mass anti-government rallies Friday, The Associated Press is reporting.

Am Italian-based major service provider for Egypt reported early Friday that no Internet traffic was going into or out of the country after 12:30 a.m. local time (5:30 p.m. today ET). On Deadline was blocked from many Egyptian news sites while compiling its previous update.

177 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:21:37pm

re: #163 daddylawbucks

How would you define a “good outcome” in Egypt? Not overtly hostile to the US or Israel is the best I can think of.

A government that represents its people, responds to them, and plays nice in the international arena.

Probably a long shot.

178 FemNaziBitch  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:22:06pm

gotta go for a while.

Have a great evening all!

179 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:22:57pm

re: #169 Killgore Trout

I think it would be nice to see a peaceful, secular and free democracy but I think that’s probably pretty unlikely.

if not impossible…too many people outside the information loop…these cultures are just naturally resistant to free elections…a benevolent dictator might be the best possibility…anybody that resists militant Islam

180 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:24:10pm

Why do I get the impression that what I would consider counter-terrorist forces and what the Eygptians consider as counter-terrorist forces might not be comparable?

181 Kronocide  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:25:31pm

re: #53 bratwurst

Would SOMEBODY please stop for a moment and think about the jihad terror babies? FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, THINK OF THE JIHAD TERROR BABIES!/

If a JIHAD TERROR BABY shit in the woods, would you hear it?

182 Fozzie Bear  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:26:05pm

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And there’s the issue of the particular definition of the word “terrorist” that the counter-terrorist force will be going by.

183 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:26:39pm

re: #180 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why do I get the impression that what I would consider counter-terrorist forces and what the Eygptians consider as counter-terrorist forces might not be comparable?

or who the terrorists are in the first place

184 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:27:32pm

I’m a naturalized citizen, even though I was never here illegally, these laws don’t really make me feel at home.

So, what about parents that are legal US residents (are not technically citizens), are they also trying to kick them out???

185 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:27:34pm

re: #182 Fozzie Bear

And there’s the issue of the particular definition of the word “terrorist” that the counter-terrorist force will be going by.

News was that yesterday, the government was implying that “Outlaws” were infiltrating the youth protests. I would link, but it was an Egyptian site and its down now.

186 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:27:46pm

This is pathetic as hell. Seriously, way to send a “welcome” to the children of immigrants, assholes. These are human beings. So sick of conservative Republicans who by and large love to pat themselves on the backs as being “good Christians” then pull this kinda shit. And you just know they’re going to be wondering why their party is regarded as bigots by hispanic voters.

187 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:27:53pm

re: #162 BishopX

I’m hoping that the protests will end up creating a new youth movement…the demographics seems right for someone to stand up and say “never trust anyone over 30”.

It’s not often typical of what happens.

“We’re living on a volcano”
[Link: www.jpost.com…]

Israeli security experts are casting an uneasy eye at the civil unrest spreading through the region. On Thursday, Yemen joined the list of Arab states experiencing unprecedented demonstrations calling for authoritarian leaders to step down, and Egypt braced for more civil unrest.

While no analysts here predict any immediate ramifications for Israel’s national security, some said mass protest movements that begin as pro-democracy uprisings could easily be hijacked by Islamists.

“We need to understand that we are living on a volcano,” said Maj.- Gen. (res.) Ya’acov Amidror, former head of the IDF’s Research and Assessment Directorate. “Conditions can change from today until tomorrow. We must ask ourselves, what is the worst case scenario,” he said. “We are on thick ice, but even that melts eventually.”

188 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:28:31pm

re: #167 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Apparently the internet went down shortly after AP posted the footage of the shooting.

We really are in the future, aren’t we

189 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:29:11pm

re: #171 BishopX

Any stable democracy is a good thing IMO…particularly if they can bring the moderate islamists to the table. The US has enough money on the table that any sane government is going to think twice about getting radical, and the best case scenario for the dispersal of the radical islamist thought in the ME is the emergence of a more moderate political movement.

Who do you regard as a moderate Islamist?

190 Renaissance_Man  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:29:14pm

‘Arizona I think has become the capital… become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.’

191 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:30:01pm

re: #186 HappyWarrior

This is pathetic as hell. Seriously, way to send a “welcome” to the children of immigrants, assholes. These are human beings. So sick of conservative Republicans who by and large love to pat themselves on the backs as being “good Christians” then pull this kinda shit. And you just know they’re going to be wondering why their party is regarded as bigots by hispanic voters.

they are the children of illegal immigrants…did you know that?

192 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:30:02pm

re: #190 Renaissance_Man

‘Arizona I think has become the capital… become the Mecca for prejudice and bigotry.’

I agree

193 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:31:22pm

Well, perhaps Egypt should just become part of Arizona?

194 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:31:59pm

re: #184 ElCapitanAmerica

I’m a naturalized citizen, even though I was never here illegally, these laws don’t really make me feel at home.

So, what about parents that are legal US residents (are not technically citizens), are they also trying to kick them out???

Not familiar with this law’s text, but they generally are talking about depriving the children of citizenship, rather than “kicking out”. Can’t generalize about all the nativists, though.

195 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:34:26pm

Found this site from trying to find some Egyptian news articles originally hosted at ahram.org.eg, looks like it was the link outside of the country for the site

[Link: www.egyptsites.com…]

196 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:38:07pm

re: #194 Decatur Deb

Not familiar with this law’s text, but they generally are talking about depriving the children of citizenship, rather than “kicking out”. Can’t generalize about all the nativists, though.

it’s not general…why would you say that?…it’s about the 14th amendment…we cannot toss our own citizens out of the country, how does something like that even enter into the conv?…I realize there can be no reasonable debate, but this almost rabid reaction, including distortions in looking bad from where I sit…it’s not about immigration or deporting citizens….fucking wow

197 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:39:07pm

re: #196 albusteve

It’s not about immigration?

198 TedStriker  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:39:10pm

re: #40 ggt

Yes, because invading armies are usually full of pregnant women. ///

We’ve already figured it out for diplomats, I think we can figure it out for invading armies.

I’m still trying to figure-out who the “invading armies” are?

Here’s a hint: it’s anyone who’s not a WASP…

199 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:40:00pm

re: #197 Obdicut

It’s not about immigration?

you know better, or do you?….how fine can you split a frogs hair?

200 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:41:28pm

re: #22 albusteve

yeah, well it’s not a judicial issue…more people fucking around with the system…it’s the law, and it’s steeped in tradition now and it probably should not be amended

I just like the way people who scream blue bloody murder if you suggest that the Second is not carved in stone, unchangeable and uninterpretable for all time, can’t wait to get rid of this one, because it was added by dumbasses who had only just gone and saved the Union, and made a decision based on, you know, the current historical situation.

201 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:41:52pm

re: #196 albusteve

it’s not general…why would you say that?…it’s about the 14th amendment…we cannot toss our own citizens out of the country, how does something like that even enter into the conv?…I realize there can be no reasonable debate, but this almost rabid reaction, including distortions in looking bad from where I sit…it’s not about immigration or deporting citizens…fucking wow

I’m talking about the anti-immigrant push as a whole. This is just one attempt to torque the 14th. ElCapitan’s question indicated concern about sending legal non-citizens back.

202 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:42:25pm

re: #197 Obdicut

It’s not about immigration?

Move along!! Nothing to see here!!

:)

203 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:43:38pm

Regarding the 14th amendment stuff, I think Killgore Trout (at 126) was right, in essence, its about NON WHITE immigration.

204 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:44:03pm

re: #201 Decatur Deb

I’m talking about the anti-immigrant push as a whole. This is just one attempt to torque the 14th. ElCapitan’s question indicated concern about sending legal non-citizens back.

and I’m posting in the context of the article and the 14th…maybe I missed something

205 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:44:32pm

re: #34 Stanley Sea

Invading armies. Fear galore. gah

Soldiers cross the border, then go into labor. The children grow up in mere seconds, scream that they’re U.S. citizens, then take up arms.

Sounds a bit like a Dr. Who episode, no?

206 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:45:44pm

re: #204 albusteve

and I’m posting in the context of the article and the 14th…maybe I missed something

Yeah. His #184 is broader than this proposed change, or at least as much as I know about it.

207 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:46:46pm

re: #189 marjoriemoon

My personal definition is any Islamist group which explicitly works within the democratic political apparatus of a country, accepts the validity of elections, respects the peaceful transfer of power and generally avoids calls to violence. I’m aware that’s a kind of broad definition but I think that it will sufice for discussions ending the GWOT.

208 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:47:16pm

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

Soldiers cross the border, then go into labor. The children grow up in mere seconds, scream that they’re U.S. citizens, then take up arms.

Sounds a bit like a Dr. Who episode, no?

You’re joking, but Ghomert has painted almost that scenario—Jihad Babies.

209 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:48:01pm

re: #206 Decatur Deb

Yeah. His #184 is broader than this proposed change, or at least as much as I know about it.

I didn’t understand it so I didn’t address it…I’m playing it down the middle as best I can…there is nothing in the text alluding to immigration or anti-immigration, or the proposed legislation I assume…just trying to be fair

210 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:50:05pm

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

Sounds a bit like a Dr. Who episode, no?

Beware, the alien Adipose babies!

Youtube Video
211 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:51:11pm

From the article;
“It ultimately seeks “to deny citizenship to any child born of parents who are not citizens of the United States, be they illegal aliens, or foreigners on business or for tourist purposes,” he added.”

So 2 parents who are legal US residents, with green cards, but not citizens … it almost sounds like they’re included too. This is not about illegal immigration at all.

212 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:52:01pm

re: #207 BishopX

My personal definition is any Islamist group which explicitly works within the democratic political apparatus of a country, accepts the validity of elections, respects the peaceful transfer of power and generally avoids calls to violence. I’m aware that’s a kind of broad definition but I think that it will sufice for discussions ending the GWOT.

there is a huge difference between Islam and Islamists…the latter rejects all outside, secular influences, projects Islam and therefore can be assumed to be the militant, radical followers of Islam

213 freetoken  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:52:17pm

re: #211 ElCapitanAmerica

It’s about brown babies.

214 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:52:34pm

re: #211 ElCapitanAmerica

From the article;
“It ultimately seeks “to deny citizenship to any child born of parents who are not citizens of the United States, be they illegal aliens, or foreigners on business or for tourist purposes,” he added.”

So 2 parents who are legal US residents, with green cards, but not citizens … it almost sounds like they’re included too. This is not about illegal immigration at all.

Now what if only one parent was a citizen?

215 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:53:02pm

re: #207 BishopX

My personal definition is any Islamist group which explicitly works within the democratic political apparatus of a country, accepts the validity of elections, respects the peaceful transfer of power and generally avoids calls to violence. I’m aware that’s a kind of broad definition but I think that it will sufice for discussions ending the GWOT.

I meant, actually to name someone. Maybe we don’t have the same meaning for the word “Islamist”. The PC version is used to describe those who were once described as terrorists. Of course, there are Muslims, but certainly not all or even most Muslims would be regarded as “Islamist”.

I’m ok with “Terrorist.” Hamas is terrorist. Muslim Brotherhood is terrorist. The Sudan. Bunch of places.

I don’t think moderate Islamists exist. Least I don’t know of any.

216 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:53:11pm

re: #205 SanFranciscoZionist

Soldiers cross the border, then go into labor. The children grow up in mere seconds, scream that they’re U.S. citizens, then take up arms.

Sounds a bit like a Dr. Who episode, no?

At least they’re not The Midwich Cuckoos

Image: village-of-the-damned_2f71527c3721f195bb83dd22cceeec21.jpg

217 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:53:27pm

re: #143 ggt


I think the fact that Mexico is so close and there are a faction of Hispanics who talk about “Reconquista” and drug-crime is such an issue, just fan the flames.
/

There are about as many Hispanics talking about Reconquista as there are people who take Bob Avakian’s New Synthesis seriously…but the proximity and drug issues, yes, very real.

218 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:53:33pm

re: #199 albusteve

you know better, or do you?…how fine can you split a frogs hair?

Well, Steve, it is definitely about immigration.

219 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:53:58pm

re: #149 BishopX

Slightly more info on Egypt’s internet: Linky

Also, the same article notes that the Muslim Brotherhood has announced they are joining the Friday protests. They had distanced themselves from all of the previous marches.

Does that mean they think the wind is blowing against Mubarak?

220 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:54:03pm

re: #211 ElCapitanAmerica

From the article;
“It ultimately seeks “to deny citizenship to any child born of parents who are not citizens of the United States, be they illegal aliens, or foreigners on business or for tourist purposes,” he added.”

So 2 parents who are legal US residents, with green cards, but not citizens … it almost sounds like they’re included too. This is not about illegal immigration at all.

yes, children born of non citizens not receiving automatic citizenship

221 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:55:03pm

re: #163 daddylawbucks

How would you define a “good outcome” in Egypt? Not overtly hostile to the US or Israel is the best I can think of.

It would be nice if they could use some of that neverending foreign aid to create a better future for their citizens.

A girl can dream.

222 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:55:47pm

re: #211 ElCapitanAmerica

From the article;
“It ultimately seeks “to deny citizenship to any child born of parents who are not citizens of the United States, be they illegal aliens, or foreigners on business or for tourist purposes,” he added.”

So 2 parents who are legal US residents, with green cards, but not citizens … it almost sounds like they’re included too. This is not about illegal immigration at all.

Wow. Even crazier.

Do they make any provision for those stateless kids? We can’t exactly deport them back into their mother’s uteruses.

Or is getting pregnant in the US while being a non-citizen going to become a crime?

223 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:56:00pm

re: #220 albusteve

yes, children born of non citizens not receiving automatic citizenship

It’s my understanding, anyway, that they don’t receive citizenship until the 18 or 21? Not terribly “automatic.”

224 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:56:37pm

re: #218 Obdicut

225 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:56:39pm

re: #221 SanFranciscoZionist

It would be nice if they could use some of that neverending foreign aid to create a better future for their citizens.

A girl can dream.

Oh they’re using it alright, but that better future far differs from your vision.

226 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:56:42pm

re: #175 daddylawbucks

Right! and Dorothy will be back from Oz… My concern it that the state will become a radicalized bastion of the Muslim Brotherhood or some other group of religious zealots. A moderate, secular dictatorship is not really a bad outcome, all considered.

Isn’t that what we said about Saddam for years and years?

/I really hate Middle Eastern politics, sometimes.

227 PhillyPretzel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:57:04pm

Good Night to my fellow Lizards.

228 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:57:09pm

So many great points made in this thread!

I just want to add one little thing. What stands out to me is why going after the 14th is very telling.

See to reduce all this illegal immigration all you have to do is truly strictly criminalize hiring/paying illegal immigrants. If it were an offense that would get you incarcerated, on the scale say of a DUI, (fines for first offense weeks or months of real jail time for any further conviction) well with no paying jobs no reason to cross without your immigration status as a legal worker.

But no, that would mean punishing white people. American people. This they dare not advocate. They simply have not got the cojones. They only have the balls to attack the defenseless, the cowards that they are.

229 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:58:24pm

re: #218 Obdicut

Well, Steve, it is definitely about immigration.


what is?

230 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:59:04pm

re: #226 SanFranciscoZionist

Isn’t that what we said about Saddam for years and years?

…snip

Ancient history, lost in the sands of time, a ghost in the ruins of Nineveh.

231 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:59:23pm

If you hold a green card and pass the citizenship test…. you can become a citizen for around $600 per head.

232 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 6:59:28pm

re: #210 freetoken

Beware, the alien Adipose babies!

[Video]

Those things were adorable. Creepy, but very cute.

233 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:00:11pm

re: #213 freetoken

It’s about brown babies.

Taking over. The electorate, or at least a portion of it.

Suck it up GOP

234 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:00:25pm

re: #232 SanFranciscoZionist

Those things were adorable. Creepy, but very cute.

Properly monitored, they would have been fine.

235 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:01:35pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now what if only one parent was a citizen?

Doesn’t matter. Malcolm X was a citizen.

//

236 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:01:37pm

I’m out
back to the real world

237 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:02:31pm

re: #236 albusteve

I’m out
back to the real world

Ok… Steve… I got your seat… now… what am I suppose to argue about?

238 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:02:54pm

re: #223 marjoriemoon

That’s incorrect. If you are born here you are a US citizen (current law), you have a US birth certificate, it’s actually pretty simple.

239 albusteve  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:03:27pm

re: #237 Walter L. Newton

Ok… Steve… I got your seat… now… what am I suppose to argue about?

I dunno, make something up…that’s what other people do

240 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:03:34pm

re: #231 Mr Pancakes

If you hold a green card and pass the citizenship test… you can become a citizen for around $600 per head.

It’s quite a process and can cost a few thousand dollars. There’s waiting times. You have to be a permanent resident first, I believe. Then background checks, learning to read and write English, learning history. It ain’t cheap. Especially if things don’t go smoothly.

241 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:03:55pm

re: #215 marjoriemoon

I meant, actually to name someone. Maybe we don’t have the same meaning for the word “Islamist”. The PC version is used to describe those who were once described as terrorists. Of course, there are Muslims, but certainly not all or even most Muslims would be regarded as “Islamist”.

I’m ok with “Terrorist.” Hamas is terrorist. Muslim Brotherhood is terrorist. The Sudan. Bunch of places.

I don’t think moderate Islamists exist. Least I don’t know of any.

I would say Erbakan, the Turkish prime minister, would be a good example. I define islamism as looking to Islam as a source of political knowledge. People who target civilians for violence as a means of achieving political goals are terrorists. People who support them support terrorists.

242 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:04:33pm

re: #223 marjoriemoon

It’s my understanding, anyway, that they don’t receive citizenship until the 18 or 21? Not terribly “automatic.”

No, children born to non-citizens are themselves given citizenship from birth. They can’t help relatives get legal status until they’re of age, however. You can’t say, despite all the stories, “I’m entitled to stay because my baby is a citizen.” However, when that baby is an adult, he can be a relative who’s a U.S. citizen on your application for a green card et al.

Not fast, automatic, or very convenient.

243 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:06:17pm

re: #234 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Properly monitored, they would have been fine.

You know, if the Adipose had been upfront, they could have made friends for life. I would totally help a foreign species start families in exchange for losing weight.

244 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:06:32pm

re: #228 Rightwingconspirator

So many great points made in this thread!

I just want to add one little thing. What stands out to me is why going after the 14th is very telling.

See to reduce all this illegal immigration all you have to do is truly strictly criminalize hiring/paying illegal immigrants. If it were an offense that would get you incarcerated, on the scale say of a DUI, (fines for first offense weeks or months of real jail time for any further conviction) well with no paying jobs no reason to cross without your immigration status as a legal worker.

But no, that would mean punishing white people. American people. This they dare not advocate. They simply have not got the cojones. They only have the balls to attack the defenseless, the cowards that they are.

Yes. Yes. Yes.

Cowards, not fit to take America forward. Hell, that’s anti to their mindset. Gah

245 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:06:42pm

re: #214 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Now what if only one parent was a citizen?

I am a citizen …. my then girlfriend (now my wife) was a Mexican citizen when our daughter was born here in the US….. my daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact I was a US citizen.

246 HappyWarrior  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:07:08pm

The automatic citizenship at birth thing makes sense from my understanding. My grandmother’s mother hadn’t even lived here a decade when she was born. Honestly, my big problem with the legislation is that it denies citizenship to people born of legal residents. I just don’t think that is right. Simple as that. And honestly the paranoia about the children of immigrants fueled by the Louis Goehmerts of politics does not help when they say outrageous crap like these kids are going to be “terror babies.”

247 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:08:08pm

re: #238 ElCapitanAmerica

That’s incorrect. If you are born here you are a US citizen (current law), you have a US birth certificate, it’s actually pretty simple.

I wasn’t talking about babies born here, but immigrants coming into the country. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.

248 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:09:00pm

re: #240 marjoriemoon

It’s quite a process and can cost a few thousand dollars. There’s waiting times. You have to be a permanent resident first, I believe. Then background checks, learning to read and write English, learning history. It ain’t cheap. Especially if things don’t go smoothly.

The Green Card process is a fucked up mess…….. to get citizenship is pretty easy and fast from that point……. just did it with my wife. A bit of schooling and $600.

249 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:09:24pm

re: #245 Mr Pancakes

I am a citizen … my then girlfriend (now my wife) was a Mexican citizen when our daughter was born here in the US… my daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact I was a US citizen.

I know thats how it works now, I’m wondering what the Baggers plan was.

250 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:10:22pm

re: #240 marjoriemoon

It’s quite a process and can cost a few thousand dollars. There’s waiting times. You have to be a permanent resident first, I believe. Then background checks, learning to read and write English, learning history. It ain’t cheap. Especially if things don’t go smoothly.

And, it takes YEARS!

251 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:10:53pm

re: #247 marjoriemoon

I wasn’t talking about babies born here, but immigrants coming into the country. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.

Eeks. I’m sorry I was thinking of another comment I made!

252 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:11:57pm

Would-Be Suicide Bomber Killed by Unexpected SMS From Mobile Carrier

The would-be suicide bomber was planning to detonate a suicide belt bomb near Red Square, a plan that was foiled when her wireless carrier sent her an SMS while she was still at a safe house, setting off the bomb and killing her. The message reportedly wished her a Happy New Years, according to the report, which sourced the info from security forces in Russia. Cell phones are often used as makeshift detonators by terrorist and insurgent groups.

253 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:12:00pm

re: #219 SanFranciscoZionist

I think the MB sees this protest as a defining moment, because whatever the outcome of the next few weeks it will reveal the players. If the MB sits this one out they risk losing relevance as an opposition party. Up until now the protesters have had more to do with the April 6th movement than with the MB. If the protests go well and Mubarak falls, the protesters will remake the government in their image. If the protests fail it will redefine the opposition landscape.

Mubarak is 82, and he hasn’t found the fountain of youth yet. There is going to be a succession struggle when he leaves power, either as a result of the protest movement or because he dies, the big question is going to be who steps up. The Muslim brotherhood wants to be on the short list, as does Elbaradei.

254 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:12:00pm

re: #250 Floral Giraffe

And, it takes YEARS!

Legal residency (Green card) yes……. after that citizenship is a breeze.

255 Stanghazi  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:12:29pm

re: #245 Mr Pancakes

I am a citizen … my then girlfriend (now my wife) was a Mexican citizen when our daughter was born here in the US… my daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact I was a US citizen.

The American dream (and love) in action. How dare they try to change this?

256 What, me worry?  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:13:01pm

re: #242 SanFranciscoZionist

No, children born to non-citizens are themselves given citizenship from birth. They can’t help relatives get legal status until they’re of age, however. You can’t say, despite all the stories, “I’m entitled to stay because my baby is a citizen.” However, when that baby is an adult, he can be a relative who’s a U.S. citizen on your application for a green card et al.

Not fast, automatic, or very convenient.

Gotcha. Thanks.

257 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:13:49pm

re: #255 Stanley Sea

The American dream (and love) in action. How dare they try to change this?

I don’t see how they can if dad is a US citizen…. If my kid was born in Mexico, that could bring up a whole new set of problems.

258 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:14:52pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Would-Be Suicide Bomber Killed by Unexpected SMS From Mobile Carrier

Her death diminishes us all, but God, I hope that’s true.

259 Walter L. Newton  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:15:20pm

re: #253 BishopX

I think the MB sees this protest as a defining moment, because whatever the outcome of the next few weeks it will reveal the players. If the MB sits this one out they risk losing relevance as an opposition party. Up until now the protesters have had more to do with the April 6th movement than with the MB. If the protests go well and Mubarak falls, the protesters will remake the government in their image. If the protests fail it will redefine the opposition landscape.

Mubarak is 82, and he hasn’t found the fountain of youth yet. There is going to be a succession struggle when he leaves power, either as a result of the protest movement or because he dies, the big question is going to be who steps up. The Muslim brotherhood wants to be on the short list, as does Elbaradei.

The positive side of having Elbaradei as president of Egypt… you’ll never have to worry about them finding a nuclear weapon.

260 Political Atheist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:16:21pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

The boomberry phone!

261 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:20:28pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Would-Be Suicide Bomber Killed by Unexpected SMS From Mobile Carrier

Happy New Year!

262 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:21:11pm

Start the year off with a Bang! (forgive me)

263 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:23:25pm

One last comment about the “anchor babies” — does anyone know how many kids we are actually talking about?

264 Shiplord Kirel  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:23:27pm

re: #258 Decatur Deb

Her death diminishes us all, but God, I hope that’s true.

re: #261 Killgore Trout

Happy New Year!

GMTA. Just posted that in pages. There are a lot of ways to kill terrorists but I had frankly never thought of spamming them to death.

265 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:23:35pm

I always laugh at the uninformed that think the illegals can just get into line and get a green card instead of hopping the fence. It doesn’t work that way….. there has to be a compelling reason for us to allow them over here.

266 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:23:37pm

re: #256 marjoriemoon

The caveat to this is that illegal immagrants will occasionally be released on humanitarian grounds if they are the sole caregiver for American children. This happend to a few of the people caught up in the Michael Bianco raid clusterfuck.

267 Kruk  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:25:00pm

re: #252 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Would-Be Suicide Bomber Killed by Unexpected SMS From Mobile Carrier

Heh. “The caller you’re trying to reach is unavailable. Permanently.”

I know, I know, it’s wrong to laugh at the death of another person. I’m a bad human being.

268 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:25:38pm

re: #263 daddylawbucks

One last comment about the “anchor babies” — does anyone know how many kids we are actually talking about?

I’m sure the numbers are high……. my niece and a grandchild of mine is an anchor baby.

269 BishopX  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:27:04pm

re: #263 daddylawbucks

One last comment about the “anchor babies” — does anyone know how many kids we are actually talking about?


From here:Linky:

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, U.S. births to non-resident mothers rose by 53% from 2000-2006. The Center says 7,670 children of the 4.2 million born in the United States in 2006 were born to non-resident mothers (.18%).

Note that this is from a decidedly anti-immigration site, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

270 Killgore Trout  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:28:52pm

re: #269 BishopX

The Center says 7,670 children of the 4.2 million born in the United States in 2006 were born to non-resident mothers (.18%).


Lol

271 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:30:43pm

re: #269 BishopX

From here:Linky:


Note that this is from a decidedly anti-immigration site, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

THEY’RE STORMING THE BEACHES!

272 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:30:45pm

re: #269 BishopX

.18%??? You’ve got to be kidding me, lol!!!

273 Kruk  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:30:56pm

re: #270 Killgore Trout

Lol

It gets even sillier when you consider a portion of that 0.18% would have citizen fathers.

But yeah, this is what the Government should be focusing on right now.

/

274 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:31:14pm

re: #269 BishopX

Ok, so even if there were 10,000 kids, for all of America, who cares? That’s maybe three times the number of people who die each year from bees stings…..we have real problems to address, as someone pointed out above. After all, this is supposed to be the land of the new beginning.

275 Kruk  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:35:01pm

Wingnut logic:

A child concieved by rape has every right to be born as a citizen of the US.

A child concieved by illegal immigrants has no right to be born a citizen of the US.

276 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:35:22pm

re: #267 Kruk

Heh. “The caller you’re trying to reach is unavailable. Permanently.”

I know, I know, it’s wrong to laugh at the death of another person. I’m a bad human being.

You’re laughing because people are alive who wouldn’t have been if not for this.

277 Querent  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:35:41pm

re: #275 Kruk

Damn wingnut logic just broke my brain…

278 Querent  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:36:11pm

re: #276 SanFranciscoZionist
and the timing was impeccable!

279 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:36:16pm

re: #275 Kruk

Wingnut logic:

A child concieved by rape has every right to be born as a citizen of the US.

A child concieved by illegal immigrants has no right to be born a citizen of the US.

THAT IS SIMPLY UNTRUE!

If an illegal immigrant got raped, they wouldn’t care.

280 ElCapitanAmerica  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:36:24pm

Yeah, .18% MOTHERS …. you’ve got to be kidding me. I thought the numbers would at least be higher.

So they’re pushing for a constitutional amendment for this … amazing.

281 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:36:48pm

re: #269 BishopX

From here:Linky:

Note that this is from a decidedly anti-immigration site, so take the numbers with a grain of salt.

So, less than a quarter of a percent born to ‘nonresident’ mothers—not necessarily illegal mothers, or mothers who don’t plan to become permanent residents, or citizens themselves.

I’m quaking in my boots.

282 engineer cat  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:37:51pm

re: #267 Kruk

Heh. “The caller you’re trying to reach is unavailable. Permanently.”

for weeks after my father died, they didn’t change the outgoing message on the answering machine, and his disembodied voice continued to answer the phone

it was teh creep

283 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:38:25pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

So, less than a quarter of a percent born to ‘nonresident’ mothers—not necessarily illegal mothers, or mothers who don’t plan to become permanent residents, or citizens themselves.

I’m quaking in my boots.

Lets see if you’re still laughing when it becomes .19%!
///

284 Vicious Babushka  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:38:55pm

I am enjoying the new Babushkamobile. Now I can laugh at snow and ice, where before I cringed in fear.

285 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:40:00pm

re: #281 SanFranciscoZionist

So, less than a quarter of a percent born to ‘nonresident’ mothers—not necessarily illegal mothers, or mothers who don’t plan to become permanent residents, or citizens themselves.

I’m quaking in my boots.

And one has to take the ‘medical tourism’ issue into account. I’ll be honest here—if a South Korean couple want their kid to have dual citizenship, I can understand that!

286 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:40:14pm

re: #284 Alouette

I am enjoying the new Babushkamobile. Now I can laugh at snow and ice, where before I cringed in fear.

I own one!

butitsan03ahem

287 SanFranciscoZionist  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:41:08pm

re: #282 engineer dog

for weeks after my father died, they didn’t change the outgoing message on the answering machine, and his disembodied voice continued to answer the phone

it was teh creep

Woman I know had to give her father’s parrot away after his death. She would have kept it, she says, so it wouldn’t have to deal with more upheaval, but it spoke in his voice, and it was just too much to deal with.

288 Querent  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:41:50pm

re: #287 SanFranciscoZionist

it was doing a bit more than pining for the fjords…

289 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:42:29pm

re: #287 SanFranciscoZionist

Woman I know had to give her father’s parrot away after his death. She would have kept it, she says, so it wouldn’t have to deal with more upheaval, but it spoke in his voice, and it was just too much to deal with.

My dad got a jury duty summons the day he died.

290 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:43:02pm

re: #245 Mr Pancakes

I am a citizen … my then girlfriend (now my wife) was a Mexican citizen when our daughter was born here in the US… my daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact I was a US citizen.

No, your daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact she was born in the US. You don’t have to be a citizen.

That’s what they’re trying to change.

291 Querent  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:43:21pm

re: #289 Mr Pancakes

My dad got a jury duty summons the day he died.

We still write stuff to my Mom’s Farcebook page.

(We know she’s watching us type…)

292 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:45:00pm

re: #289 Mr Pancakes

My dad got a jury duty summons the day he died.

And was still smarter than 3/4s of the panel.

293 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:45:08pm

re: #290 Obdicut

No, your daughter was born a US citizen due to the fact she was born in the US. You don’t have to be a citizen.

That’s what they’re trying to change.

You’re right…… don’t burst my bubble dude…… I don’t want her to think she was an anchor baby!

294 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:46:09pm

re: #289 Mr Pancakes

My dad got a jury duty summons the day he died.

I would hate to see what that jury was judging. :)

295 Obdicut  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:46:51pm

re: #293 Mr Pancakes

You’re right… don’t burst my bubble dude… I don’t want her to think she was an anchor baby!

There’s no such thing. She’s ‘just’ a child. Just the most amazing thing ever.

296 Decatur Deb  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:47:11pm

re: #284 Alouette

I am enjoying the new Babushkamobile. Now I can laugh at snow and ice, where before I cringed in fear.

Pride goeth before a fenderbender.

297 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:48:35pm

re: #293 Mr Pancakes

You’re right… don’t burst my bubble dude… I don’t want her to think she was an anchor baby!

Actually, legally, your girlfriend’s anchor is you.

298 Mr Pancakes  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:48:42pm

re: #295 Obdicut

There’s no such thing. She’s ‘just’ a child. Just the most amazing thing ever.

No kiddin’….. she a good girl. She’s 11 now and hates Justin Bieber.

299 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:48:44pm

re: #297 EmmmieG

I meant wife. Duh.

300 Kragar  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:50:49pm

re: #298 Mr Pancakes

No kiddin’… she a good girl. She’s 11 now and hates Justin Bieber.

How can you hate a girl who sings like that?

301 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:50:57pm

re: #282 engineer dog

for weeks after my father died, they didn’t change the outgoing message on the answering machine, and his disembodied voice continued to answer the phone

it was teh creep

I know a lady whose husband has been gone for a couple of years, but he’s still on the answering machine message. I can’t decide if she doesn’t know to change it, or if she likes to hear his voice occasionally.

302 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:51:15pm

re: #300 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

How can you hate a girl who sings like that?

And she has the cuttest big eyes and button nose.

303 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:51:36pm

re: #301 Floral Giraffe

I know a lady whose husband has been gone for a couple of years, but he’s still on the answering machine message. I can’t decide if she doesn’t know to change it, or if she likes to hear his voice occasionally.

Don’t forget the security issues. I have a friend whose (grown) son is on the machine.

304 Dancing along the light of day  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:52:13pm

re: #296 Decatur Deb

Pride goeth before a fenderbender.

The first ding is the hardest!

305 DaddyLawBucks  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:52:50pm

re: #302 EmmmieG

You mean his kid or Bieber?

306 austin_blue  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:52:51pm

My grandmother was an Irish anchor baby. My grandfather was a German anchor baby.

This is a good reason to deny me citizenship. My grandfather’s service in WW2, my father’s service in WW2, Korea, and Vietnam, and my service in the military should make no difference. We are illegitimate Americans. Despite my dad’s pride of place in Arlington, we should all be Cast Out.

307 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:53:12pm

re: #305 daddylawbucks

You mean his kid or Bieber?

Justine.

308 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 7:53:27pm

Friend of mine just posted this on Facebook, and, well, dang it!? I think it’s hysterical.

Will, coming downstairs long after he’s supposed to be asleep - “Fanny, I can’t get to sleep - I feel like somebody’s watching me.” Me, seizing the teaching moment, “There is, Will - it’s God. I asked God to watch over you to keep you safe and well.” Will - “Well, God’s giving me the creeps!”

309 Virginia Plain  Thu, Jan 27, 2011 8:19:44pm

The only reason I am a citizen is because of the 14th amendment. My parents were green card holders at the time.

310 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:28:06am

I would have no objections to changing the 14th amendment to exclude automatic citizenship to children of parents who are in the country illegally.

The argument is not ill founded, at the time of the 14th amendment “Illegal immigration” was not an issue or even a concept in the framer’s minds.

But I am not for just “reinterpreting” the existing amendment in the manner being proposed.

311 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:09:22am

re: #310 ralphieboy

I would have no objections to changing the 14th amendment to exclude automatic citizenship to children of parents who are in the country illegally.

Then explain what would be done with those children.

312 aagcobb  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:30:47am

re: #13 jaunte

Logical extremism at work:

This idiot should read US v. Wong Kim Ark. The children of invading soldiers are expressly excluded from birthright citizenship because they are not born under the jurisdiction of the United States.

313 jdrhoades  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 4:52:04am

re: #14 JasonA


They’re not even really that fond of the First.

314 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:34:59am

re: #311 Obdicut

Then explain what would be done with those children.

Let ‘em stay here, just not as citizens. Just like what we do with their parents.

I don’t approve or agree with the current set of practices, but right now there seem to be only two alternatives: complete amnesty or zero tolerance.

315 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 5:52:26am

re: #314 ralphieboy

Let ‘em stay here, just not as citizens. Just like what we do with their parents.

As what, then? What would they be? They’d be stateless people in the US with no stake in the community, no reason to engage to the benefit of the US, but nowhere else to go. Is that really a smart plan to you?


I don’t approve or agree with the current set of practices, but right now there seem to be only two alternatives: complete amnesty or zero tolerance.

Letting them stay here isn’t ‘zero tolerance’.

316 Peter Kaufman  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:02:22am

I propose that any toilet-trained adult, not suffering from a doctor-certified medical condtiion, not be allowed to wear diapers.

317 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:05:55am

re: #315 Obdicut

Your point is similar to what I was getting at: there is no simple solution to these sort of questions.

Immigration reform has to be a complete package that starts with restricting access at our borders and points of entry, continuing through documentation and registration of those immigrants who live here.

Just altering an amendment or reinterpreting it is going to cause as many problems as it tries to solve.

318 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:14:44am

re: #317 ralphieboy

Your point is similar to what I was getting at: there is no simple solution to these sort of questions.

This:


I would have no objections to changing the 14th amendment to exclude automatic citizenship to children of parents who are in the country illegally.

Is a simple solution. Or rather, simplistic. It is not part of any real solution.

Immigration reform has to be a complete package that starts with restricting access at our borders and points of entry, continuing through documentation and registration of those immigrants who live here.

And what? What do you do after you document and register them?

319 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:42:34am

re: #318 Obdicut

Slow down, please.

I am for reform, as the current situation is untenable.

But partial fixes and get-tough measures on their own are nothing but political posturing at this point.

I believe we pretty much have to bite the bullet and declare an amnesty for all illegals living here, provided they register and obtain documentation.

Children of legally registered and documented immigrants should enjoy citizenship at birth: I think that provision might serve as a great incentive for them to register.

Having done so, (and only after having done so) we would have to considerably restrict access across our borders, and become a lot more thorough about detaining and returning illegal entrants.

That is a complicated and expensive long-term undertaking, one flies in the faces of a lot of vested interests, and it would entail more government and more expenditures. Neither of which is popular these days.

320 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 6:49:58am

re: #319 ralphieboy

All of that is fine. None of that has anything to do with denying citizenship to the children of undocumented immigrants. Even under your plan— which I entirely approve of— we would still have undocumented immigrants, and there would still be a number of children of undocumented immigrants, who, if we did not give citizenship to, would be stateless.

Their numbers are very small now, and would be even smaller, but they still need to be addressed in some way.

321 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:59:43am

re: #320 Obdicut


Those children would not be stateless, they would have the nationality of their parents. That is the case here in Europe with the children of non-resident aliens.

322 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:07:24am

re: #321 ralphieboy

Those children would not be stateless, they would have the nationality of their parents. That is the case here in Europe with the children of non-resident aliens.

What if those states refuse to acknowledge their nationality? For example, Brazil won’t recognize the children of Brazilians who show no intent to return to Brazil— and illegal entry into the US is such a condition. Many of the other states in the Americas are the same way.

323 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:43:17am

Right now the accepted status quo is that illegal immigrants are tolerated on US territory. It is possible for them to work and live and do everything but vote without any major problems.

The ultimate goal of immigration reform is to make it more difficult for such people to get here and remain here, and in the end, to make it easier for us to deport those people who are here illegally.

It is a can of worms any way we shake it, the only other option is to seal our borders, introduce a National Identity Card system and require every citizen and resident to register their addresses with the local authorities, (which is what a lot of nations do already).

324 Obdicut  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 8:49:48am

re: #323 ralphieboy

The ultimate goal of immigration reform is to make it more difficult for such people to get here and remain here, and in the end, to make it easier for us to deport those people who are here illegally.

That’s not the ultimate goal. It may be your ultimate goal.

You didn’t address the problem.

325 Sol Berdinowitz  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 9:56:54am

Right now, illegal aliens are an accepted fact of life in the USA. But they are still illegal. The odd status quo arises from the fact that the problems involved in arresting/deporting them would outweigh the problems involved in letting them stay illegally.

I currently live in Germany, where everybody, citizen or resident alien, is required to register their address with the local authorities. Without proof of this registration, you cannot sign a lease, open a bank account, register a car or enroll a child in school.

All of which makes it very difficult to live here as an illegal. It does not mean they don’t have them, but they have to stay well underground.

On the other hand, I recently received a freindly note advising me that my US passport was about to expire and it is illegal to stay here without a valid passport.

I would not have noticed it otherwise.

And inasmuch as my wife and I are both legally registered resident aliens, our German-born children automatically acquired German citizenship at birth.

Ankerkinder!!!

326 funky chicken  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:29:00pm

so fetuses are no longer citizens then? that kinda puts a crimp in ol’ Rick Santorum’s anti-abortion spiel, doesn’t it?

327 cminmn  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:47:44pm

What’s wrong with this? I don’t support the far right demands but this idea is a partial solution that would address a problem.

328 wrenchwench  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 1:57:01pm

re: #327 cminmn

What’s wrong with this? I don’t support the far right demands but this idea is a partial solution that would address a problem.

It would cause more problems than it would solve. What problem do you think it would address?

329 budda10000  Fri, Jan 28, 2011 7:08:05pm

“It would cause more problems than it would solve. What problem do you think it would address?”
If the right is correct it would eliminate the “anchor baby” problem if one parent had to be a US citizen. On its face value it is a reasonable law because I cannot recall any other countries with birthright insta-citizenship… I was born in Germany but i am not a German citizen.. However passing state level laws to try and subvert the constitution is a BS tactic. If they really think they can make the case for a revision of the amendment we have a process for that and it involves a super majority vote by all the states.
On a side note it would eliminate the motivation for pregnant women to try and make the dangerous border crossing….. That is again if it is even a big problem. I have never seen any study done on it.

330 Obdicut  Sat, Jan 29, 2011 6:05:36am

re: #329 budda10000

There is no anchor-baby problem.

And almost all the other countries in the Americas have birthright citizenship.


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