Tennessee Republicans Introduce Idiotic Anti-Sharia Bill Drafted by Racist Loon

The GOP’s war on sanity
Wingnuts • Views: 48,080

Last week, Tennessee Republican State Senator Bill Ketron became the latest fear-mongering idiot to introduce a bill criminalizing “sharia law.” Ketron’s bill goes a bit further than other wingnut anti-sharia legislation, though, because he’s proposing to make it a felony, punishable by 15 years in jail.

And it gets worse, because the bill was drafted by none other than Pamela Geller associate David Yerushalmi, a raving racist who has written that “blacks” are “the most murderous of peoples,” who advocates criminalizing Islam itself and imposing 20-year sentences on practicing Muslims, and who wants to return to a pre-Bill of Rights Constitution, restricting voting rights to white male land-owners. Yes, really.

Bobbie Patray, state president of the Eagle Forum, confirmed that the law had been drafted by David Yerushalmi, a Chandler, Ariz.-based attorney. Yerushalmi runs the Society of Americans for National Existence, a nonprofit that says following Shariah is treasonous.

He also has close ties to Frank Gaffney, president of the Washington, D.C.-based Center for Security Policy, a key witness for the plaintiffs in a lawsuit against a mosque being built in Murfreesboro.

As of February, Republicans in at least 13 States have introduced bills guarding against the non-existent threat of sharia law.

Related
UPDATE at 2/28/11 10:15:55 am

It comes as no surprise to find that Bill Ketron is also a Birther.

MURFREESBORO — Two Rutherford County legislators are sponsoring a bill that would require U.S. presidential candidates to prove to the state of Tennessee they were born U.S. citizens in order to run for office.

State Sen. Bill Ketron said he proposed the bill because he thinks President Barack Obama might be hiding the fact he was born in another country.

“Why can’t he (Obama) come forward and show he is a citizen?” Ketron said Friday, adding he has read articles stating Obama has spent $2 million from his campaign fund fighting lawsuits to keep from showing his birth certificate.

(h/t: Gus.)

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348 comments
1 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 9:56:26am

Maybe I can convince one of them to buy this rock I have that keeps tigers away...

2 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 9:59:57am

It's suddenly just so perfectly fine for GOP people to pal around with absolute, blatant racists. Or be them.

Racism in the US in 2011: Much bigger than I thought it'd be.

3 darthstar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:00:09am

Look at this douchebag...either he really has to pee or he sucks at golf.

If Sharia law prevented the above, it wouldn't seem all that bad./

4 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:00:56am

I see that the Republican Party is still hard at work tackling this nation's more serious and pressing issues.

//

5 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:01:37am

re: #2 Obdicut

Much bigger than I thought it'd be.

That's what she said?

....

(I'll see myself out...)

6 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:01:59am

This bill is particularly onerous. As written, if a person donates to, say, the Red Cross and claims it's Zakah as Maliki advised, he is committing felonious act of terrorism.

Link to the bill: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49501971/Tenn-Anti-Sharia-Senate-Bill-1028

7 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:04:11am

Facepalm.

8 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:05:59am
But it also claims that any adherence to Shariah law – which includes religious practices like feet-washing and prayers – is treasonous.

So some Muslim guy washing his feet during working hours is going to be charged with a felony, treason, and face 15 years in prison?

Who are these cartoon people?

9 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:07:19am

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. I mean, from a practical standpoint, it sounds like this bill wouldn't actually do anything, since a law even remotely close to what is described in the article would probably be struck down so fast the sponsors' heads would spin (I don't see a link to the text of it, so I can't say for certain). It's also not clear how much support actually exists in the legislature there for this, as it only states that the sponsors are party bigwigs.

All that being said, the fact that such a bill would be introduced at all (And by state party leaders, at that) is rather frightening and depressing. Even if laws such as this are blatantly unconstitutional and likely to be struck down quickly, just the fact that they are out there stokes the anti-Muslim (Or other disapproved minority) feelings that are already far out of control. And, as we saw in Oklahoma, there's a lot of fear and confusion out there in the general public. Ugh.

10 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:07:20am

GOP to non-Christians; "Fuck your 1st Amendment rights, you heathens!"

11 Fat Bastard Vegetarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:07:48am

re: #1 jamesfirecat

Maybe I can convince one of them to buy this rock I have that keeps tigers away...

My rock is obviously very effective. I've only seen tigers at the circus and the zoo. And at the time? I did not have my rock with me!

12 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:08:34am

Sigh. Addiction is such a terrible affliction. Especially when the addiction is to hate, fear and anger.

13 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:09:38am

Breaking news!

Senator Bill Ketron of Tennessee is a birther! Author of bill in question.

Ketron: Is president a U.S. citizen?

MURFREESBORO — Two Rutherford County legislators are sponsoring a bill that would require U.S. presidential candidates to prove to the state of Tennessee they were born U.S. citizens in order to run for office.

State Sen. Bill Ketron said he proposed the bill because he thinks President Barack Obama might be hiding the fact he was born in another country.

"Why can't he (Obama) come forward and show he is a citizen?" Ketron said Friday, adding he has read articles stating Obama has spent $2 million from his campaign fund fighting lawsuits to keep from showing his birth certificate.

Continues.

Gee. Now that's a surprise.

14 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:10:02am

Try mentioning that there should be a similar law outlawing Christianity and watch their heads explode.

15 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:10:42am

re: #12 Romantic Heretic

Sigh. Addiction is such a terrible affliction. Especially when the addiction is to hate, fear and anger.

//I'm a rageaholic, I just can't live without rageahol!

16 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:10:57am

re: #13 Gus 802

Breaking news!

Senator Bill Ketron of Tennessee is a birther! Author of bill in question.

Ketron: Is president a U.S. citizen?

Gee. Now that's a surprise.

Where the hell did the $2million cover up meme come from? WND?

17 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:11:25am

re: #16 PT Barnum

Where the hell did the $2million cover up meme come from? WND?

Maybe.

18 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:11:43am

Its just a matter of time before they raid a mosque as a terrorist training camp. Maybe they can round up college professors teaching Arabic and Middle Eastern studies for training possible terrorists as well.

19 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:12:28am

This is anti-Americanism at its worst. The state can not criminalize religious freedoms.

If we had a government that actually functioned, these criminals in the legislature would be removed from office by the Federal government. Shit, like the "right" of a state to completely deny basic American rights to Americans, got settled in 1865.

20 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:12:33am

re: #12 Romantic Heretic

Sigh. Addiction is such a terrible affliction. Especially when the addiction is to hate, fear and anger.

Paranoia means you think you're important enough for people to conspire against.

21 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:12:51am

re: #18 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its just a matter of time before they raid a mosque as a terrorist training camp. Maybe they can round up college professors teaching Arabic and Middle Eastern studies for training possible terrorists as well.

Shhhh! Don't give 'em any ideas! semi/

22 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:13:01am

We should start a pool for when peak wingnut will hit. I'm thinking sometime in 2012.

23 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:13:51am

re: #2 Obdicut

It's suddenly just so perfectly fine for GOP people to pal around with absolute, blatant racists. Or be them.

Racism in the US in 2011: Much bigger than I thought it'd be.

A nascent Nazi movement. Add that to the list of things like AGW I wish I was not right about.

24 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:14:06am

re: #22 PT Barnum

We should start a pool for when peak wingnut will hit. I'm thinking sometime in 2012.

December 21, 2012.

A couple of weeks after Obama gets reelected.

;)

25 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:14:12am

re: #22 PT Barnum

We should start a pool for when peak wingnut will hit. I'm thinking sometime in 2012.

When is the Republican convention?

26 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:14:33am

re: #24 Gus 802

December 21, 2012.

A couple of weeks after Obama gets reelected.

;)

World go boom on that day.
...
HUZZAH!

27 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:14:54am

I guess jobs is Tennessee Republican speak for "stupid Sharia paranoia." Way to focus on the big fucking picture dipshits and no it's no surprise at all that the sponsor is a birther and the writer of the bill is connected to Krazy Pam.

28 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:14:54am

re: #24 Gus 802

December 21, 2012.

A couple of weeks after Obama gets reelected.

;)

I think it would take a complete defeat (meaning super majorities in both houses and the White House) to bring that about.

29 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:15:04am

re: #26 Varek Raith

World go boom on that day.
...
HUZZAH!

The mother of all shotguns!

//

30 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:15:08am

re: #15 jamesfirecat

//I'm a rageaholic, I just can't live without rageahol!

'Rageaholic' is what I call my father. I've learned not to discuss either the Middle East or Quebec with him. Not unless I want to be screamed at.

31 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:16:11am

re: #28 PT Barnum

I think it would take a complete defeat (meaning super majorities in both houses and the White House) to bring that about.

Democratic Super Majorities.

A Palin or Bachmann candidacy would do the trick.

32 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:18:06am

Yep.

2 Tenn. Lawmakers Backing Birth Records Bill
Updated: Sunday, 27 Feb 2011, 2:25 PM CST

MURFREESBORO, Tenn. - A pair of Tennessee lawmakers are pushing a measure that would require U.S. presidential candidates to prove they were born U.S. citizens to qualify for the ballot in the state.

State Sen. Bill Ketron told The Tennessean he proposed the bill because he thinks President Barack Obama might be hiding the fact that he was born in another country...

33 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:18:54am

So I was bored last night and I read a bit on the Know Nothing movement that was prominent in the lead up to the Civil War. The old saying "More things change, the more they stay the same" really is applicable here.

34 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:19:03am

re: #32 Gus 802

Yep.

2 Tenn. Lawmakers Backing Birth Records Bill
Updated: Sunday, 27 Feb 2011, 2:25 PM CST

Hey, Bill? I demand to see proof that you aren't a blooming idiot.

35 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:19:17am

re: #20 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Paranoia means you think you're important enough for people to conspire against.

Are you talking about me?

You are talking about me aren't you?

36 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:19:42am

re: #34 Varek Raith

Hey, Bill? I demand to see proof that you aren't a blooming idiot.

We don't need any proof. :)

37 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:19:55am

I demand proof that Bill Ketron isn't from Mars.

38 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:20:49am

re: #37 HappyWarrior

I demand proof that Bill Ketron isn't from Mars.

He ain't from my home planet.
Neither is Bachmann.
Please don't smear Mars.
/

39 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:21:33am

The fellow is not so stupid as to realize that this bill has no chance of being implemented, but he has enough sense to know that it will improve hi standing in the Conservative community. And that is what is driving a lot of legislation these days.

40 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:21:35am

Guys, this is not about clucking about how everyone is soo angry or "where did politeness go?" The time when such questions would have been appropriate - or capable of doing anything were the days before Carl Rove and Fox News.

The GOP is openly in the employ of plutocrats who are using racism, fanaticism, and reactionary fear of women and gays and everything not uneducated, Christian and mildly obese to distract the masses from their real goals of destroying any political competition, workers rights, public education and of course, making the world safe for unhindered drilling and burning of fossil fuels.

The people behind this are looking to their bottom lines first last and always. This is just like Krupp and other German industrialists did when they pimped a similar, hyper nationalist, purify the nation, populist anti-communist message with racial tones.

How about we get real now that the mask is completely off and start fighting to take our nation back from the brink? This is not the time to caterwaul or wring hands. The fight has been here for some time and it is getting ever more bold. It is a time to organize and fight back while there is still something that looks like America to fight for.

41 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:21:41am

re: #38 Varek Raith

He ain't from my home planet.
Neither is Bachmann.
Please don't smear Mars.
/

Fine they're from that one planet everyone hates.

42 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:22:45am

re: #38 Varek Raith

He ain't from my home planet.
Neither is Bachmann.
Please don't smear Mars.
/

What they have sith on Mars?

43 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:22:59am

re: #39 ralphieboy

The fellow is not so stupid as to realize that this bill has no chance of being implemented, but he has enough sense to know that it will improve hi standing in the Conservative community. And that is what is driving a lot of legislation these days.

Exactly, the conservative base out there will love him for this and see him as "standing up to the Islamist Socialists that run the government."

44 S'latch  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:23:15am

I am surprised to learn that here that Sharia Law is currently part of the Tennessee Code. I had no idea. I wonder how got there.

And this is certainly a novel method for changing the law. Usually unwanted or outdated laws are repealed, not criminalized.

45 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:24:10am

Thanks for the h/t Charles.

46 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:24:36am

re: #6 kirkspencer

This bill is particularly onerous. As written, if a person donates to, say, the Red Cross and claims it's Zakah as Maliki advised, he is committing felonious act of terrorism.

Link to the bill: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49501971/Tenn-Anti-Shari a-Senate-Bill-1028

Oh, there it is. Thank you for the link.

As for the bill itself...it's even worse than I expected. It rambles on in a manner of defining sharia in a way that seems so focused that it would only cover things that I assume would already be covered by anti-terrorism laws (Just with this being specifically about Islam), as it states:

(1) “Sharia” means the set of rules, precepts, instructions, or edicts which are said to emanate directly or indirectly from the god of Allah or the prophet Mohammed and which include directly or indirectly the encouragement of any person to support the abrogation, destruction, or violation of the United States or Tennessee Constitutions, or the destruction of the national existence of the United States or the sovereignty of this state, and which includes among other methods to achieve these ends, the likely use of imminent violence.

That said, the next line states:

Any rule,precept, instruction, or edict arising directly from the extant rulings of any of the authoritative schools of Islamic jurisprudence of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali, Ja’afariya, or Salafi, as those terms are used by sharia adherents, is prima facie sharia without any further evidentiary showing;

I'm not entirely sure what the part entails.

In any case, it seems that if this bill would not make Islam illegal (Which wouldn't stand), it probably doesn't actually do much of anything except fuel anti-Muslim feelings (And probably also wouldn't stand).

47 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:24:48am

re: #44 Lawrence Schmerel

I am surprised to learn that here that Sharia Law is currently part of the Tennessee Code. I had no idea. I wonder how got there.

And this is certainly a novel method for changing the law. Usually unwanted or outdated laws are repealed, not criminalized.

Its like how they can't make abortion illegal so instead they just make it legal to kill those who provide abortions!

48 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:24:49am

re: #41 HappyWarrior

Fine they're from that one planet everyone hates.

Earth.
:P

49 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:25:19am

re: #48 Varek Raith

Earth.
:P

Uranus

/

50 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:26:35am

Gee, aren't the parts of Sharia Law most are against already unconstitutional to implement anyway???

51 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:26:43am

re: #48 Varek Raith

Earth.
:P

Oh come on, everyone loves us. We even briefly decided that little Pluto was cool enough to be a planet. What's Mars done other than kill President Jack nicholson? (at least I think they killed him in that)

52 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:26:55am

re: #40 LudwigVanQuixote

This is just like Krupp and other German industrialists did when they pimped a similar, hyper nationalist, purify the nation, populist anti-communist message with racial tones.

That turned out so well for them too, didn't it?

53 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:27:18am

re: #51 HappyWarrior

Oh come on, everyone loves us. We even briefly decided that little Pluto was cool enough to be a planet. What's Mars done other than kill President Jack nicholson? (at least I think they killed him in that)

We took out Congress.
You should thank us.
/

54 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:27:30am

Why does Chris Matthews always bring up the birther question?

//

55 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:27:40am

re: #48 Varek Raith

Earth.
:P

Jewpiter.

56 avanti  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:27:47am

A former college student in Texas on CNN now talking about his new organization He's President of the association: "Former Majority Association for Equality" He's seeking scholarship money for white males since we all know white males need all the help they can get with all the disadvantages they deal with in today's America./


His quote:

""We're not looking for blond-haired, blue-eyed, stereotypical white males," he said. "My feeling is that if you can say you're 25 percent Caucasian, you're Caucasian enough for us."

I wonder what groups will sponsor his fund ?

57 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:27:57am

The funniest part is if this passes and they see a Hindu praying to Vishnu, some idiot knuckledragger will be like "Hey why you praying to Muhammad."

58 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:28:16am

re: #29 Gus 802

The mother of all shotguns!

//

A punt?

59 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:28:45am

re: #58 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

A punt?

Those guns are WTFLOLOVERKILL.

60 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:28:53am

re: #41 HappyWarrior

Fine they're from that one planet everyone hates.

The martians are prettier than these guys also.

Image: plantman+final+smaller.jpg

61 albusteve  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:28:59am

I'd be far more worrried about Al Q operatives here in the US...settled into deep cover, waiting to strike...the Sharia law gig zero net effect on our safety and security...nothing more than grandstanding for the masses

62 Bulworth  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:00am

I'm guessing this is just more of that "pro-Constitution", "less government" I keep hearing about. Maybe this dude wasn't listening when the 1st Amendment was read in Congress recently.

63 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:13am

re: #56 avanti

A former college student in Texas on CNN now talking about his new organization He's President of the association: "Former Majority Association for Equality" He's seeking scholarship money for white males since we all know white males need all the help they can get with all the disadvantages they deal with in today's America./

His quote:

""We're not looking for blond-haired, blue-eyed, stereotypical white males," he said. "My feeling is that if you can say you're 25 percent Caucasian, you're Caucasian enough for us."

I wonder what groups will sponsor his fund ?

AGh white males. *
*I'm a white male :)

64 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:28am

re: #57 HappyWarrior

The funniest part is if this passes and they see a Hindu praying to Vishnu, some idiot knuckledragger will be like "Hey why you praying to Muhammad."

Reminds me of a joke I heard a Hindu comic telling on You tube...

(As best I remember it)

They are not allowed to eat pork, we are not allowed to eat beef.

They are connected with 9/11... we are connected with 7/11....

65 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:35am

re: #32 Gus 802

Yep.

2 Tenn. Lawmakers Backing Birth Records Bill
Updated: Sunday, 27 Feb 2011, 2:25 PM CST

Tennessee SB 366 (actually attributed to Beavers, not Keaton), includes:

(B) The affidavit prescribed in subdivision (a)(2)(A) shall include references to
and attachment of all of the following, which shall be sworn to under penalty of
perjury:
(i) An original long form birth certificate that includes the date and
place of birth, the names of the hospital and the attending physician, and
signatures of the witnesses in attendance;
(ii) A sworn statement attesting that the candidate has not held
dual or multiple citizenship and that the candidate's allegiance is solely to
the United States of America; and
(iii) A sworn statement or form that identifies the candidate's
places of residence in the United States for the preceding fourteen (14)
years.

Now I look at that, and wonder if they have thought about the fact that a lot of people don't have their original long form birth certificate.

Set aside the fact that the second and third tests in no way prove or disprove "natural born citizenship."

(bill link)

66 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:37am

re: #42 LudwigVanQuixote

What they have sith on Mars?

No, the Mechanicum doesn't put up with their crap.

67 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:29:43am

re: #4 Gus 802

I see that the Republican Party is still hard at work tackling this nation's more serious and pressing issues.

//

This seriously makes no damn sense to me.

If 'peaceful practice of Islam' isn't outlawed, what are they banning? Violence? Well, unless there's something I don't know about the penal code in Tennessee, that would already be illegal.

Can they give me a for instance? Or something?

68 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:30:42am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

This seriously makes no damn sense to me.

If 'peaceful practice of Islam' isn't outlawed, what are they banning? Violence? Well, unless there's something I don't know about the penal code in Tennessee, that would already be illegal.

Can they give me a for instance? Or something?

I'm all for re-illegalizing all that illegal.
Or something.

69 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:31:04am

re: #6 kirkspencer

This bill is particularly onerous. As written, if a person donates to, say, the Red Cross and claims it's Zakah as Maliki advised, he is committing felonious act of terrorism.

Link to the bill: http://www.scribd.com/doc/49501971/Tenn-Anti-Shari a-Senate-Bill-1028

Donating to the Red Cross seems like a peaceful enough practice to me.

//OK, now I'm scared.

70 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:31:33am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

This seriously makes no damn sense to me.

If 'peaceful practice of Islam' isn't outlawed, what are they banning? Violence? Well, unless there's something I don't know about the penal code in Tennessee, that would already be illegal.

Can they give me a for instance? Or something?

As I said above, based on the way the bill is written, is seems like it would basically outlaw Islamic terrorism and organizations associated with it. In other words, it seems to pretty much be a generic anti-terror bill with "Muslim" inserted into it in a bunch of places.

71 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:31:39am

re: #8 Gus 802

So some Muslim guy washing his feet during working hours is going to be charged with a felony, treason, and face 15 years in prison?

Who are these cartoon people?

"Wait! I swear to God! I'm Catholic! I just stepped in some gunk!! Hellllp!!!!"

72 albusteve  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:31:52am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

AGh white males. *
*I'm a white male :)

Anglos are, or soon will be the minority in Texas...I think that's his point

73 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:32:17am

re: #9 Simply Sarah

I'm not sure if I should laugh or cry. I mean, from a practical standpoint, it sounds like this bill wouldn't actually do anything, since a law even remotely close to what is described in the article would probably be struck down so fast the sponsors' heads would spin (I don't see a link to the text of it, so I can't say for certain). It's also not clear how much support actually exists in the legislature there for this, as it only states that the sponsors are party bigwigs.

All that being said, the fact that such a bill would be introduced at all (And by state party leaders, at that) is rather frightening and depressing. Even if laws such as this are blatantly unconstitutional and likely to be struck down quickly, just the fact that they are out there stokes the anti-Muslim (Or other disapproved minority) feelings that are already far out of control. And, as we saw in Oklahoma, there's a lot of fear and confusion out there in the general public. Ugh.

It's an expression of hate, it's meant to scare and intimidate, and it's an attempt to build a legal case that Islam is not legitimate in the United States.

Evil.

74 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:32:37am

re: #67 SanFranciscoZionist

This seriously makes no damn sense to me.

If 'peaceful practice of Islam' isn't outlawed, what are they banning? Violence? Well, unless there's something I don't know about the penal code in Tennessee, that would already be illegal.

Can they give me a for instance? Or something?

You see that is the weasel word "peaceful". Who defines that? This legislature? Once you get something like this into law, the Imam's sermon becomes the subject of searches for "treason."

Tooo many people praying at the same time is organizing for terrorism....

75 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:32:38am

re: #64 jamesfirecat

Reminds me of a joke I heard a Hindu comic telling on You tube...

(As best I remember it)

They are not allowed to eat pork, we are not allowed to eat beef.

They are connected with 9/11... we are connected with 7/11...

Ha, you know what was also good was Aasif Mandavi in TN. That was great. He lets the anti mosque woman know flat out that he's a Muslim. And the imam and "I'm a mom" pun gag was pretty funny too. And then he called it the worst sleeper cell ever or something like that. I was dying.

76 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:32:56am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

"Wait! I swear to God! I'm Catholic! I just stepped in some gunk!! Helllp!!!"

Just make sure that you are facing away from Mecca when you pray...

77 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:10am
78 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:17am

re: #71 SanFranciscoZionist

"Wait! I swear to God! I'm Catholic! I just stepped in some gunk!! Helllp!!!"

What is the airspeed velocity of an unladen swallow?!

79 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:23am

re: #65 kirkspencer

Now I look at that, and wonder if they have thought about the fact that a lot of people don't have their original long form birth certificate.

Mine's in German. Dad was in the RCAF posted to a squadron in Germany and I was born there.

I'd make the wingnuts heads explode.

80 S'latch  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:33am

Oh, I see:

The bill exempts any peaceful practice of Islam.

But it also claims that any adherence to Shariah law – which includes religious practices like feet-washing and prayers – is treasonous.

It would require the state attorney general to investigate Shariah-compliant groups.

Now that certainly sounds like it will pass Constitutional muster to me!

81 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:40am

re: #22 PT Barnum

We should start a pool for when peak wingnut will hit. I'm thinking sometime in 2012.

I think some people may actually need to be hospitalized if Obama wins a second term. And not because the SEIU/Black Panther goons beat them up.

82 jaunte  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:42am

What kind of a name is Ketron? Sounds like a corporation.

83 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:33:56am

re: #23 LudwigVanQuixote

A nascent Nazi movement. Add that to the list of things like AGW I wish I was not right about.

It tastes just like that.

84 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:08am

re: #63 HappyWarrior

AGh white males. *
*I'm a white male :)

Ahhh, if you want to *never* count as a white male to those types, all you have to do is convert to Judaism. :) ON the flip side, everyone else considers you a white male :)

85 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:12am

re: #82 jaunte

What kind of a name is Ketron? Sounds like a corporation.

Obviously a Muslim name.

86 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:27am

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

I think some people may actually need to be hospitalized if Obama wins a second term. And not because the SEIU/Black Panther goons beat them up.

One can only hope

87 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:28am

*SIGH*

88 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:52am

re: #81 SanFranciscoZionist

I think some people may actually need to be hospitalized if Obama wins a second term. And not because the SEIU/Black Panther goons beat them up.

"This man is overgasped!"

89 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:34:56am

re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote

Tooo many people praying at the same time is organizing for terrorism...

And yet when a white guy makes a joke about blowing up a health clinic in a church, its just taken out of context.

90 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:35:19am

re: #89 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet when a white guy makes a joke about blowing up a health clinic in a church, its just taken out of context.

Or it was satire....

91 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:35:38am

re: #89 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And yet when a white guy makes a joke about blowing up a health clinic in a church, its just taken out of context.

Don't you know that's just satire?!
/

92 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:35:59am

re: #87 CuriousLurker

*SIGH*

Yeah... it's shameful. I am soo very sorry you have to see something like this CL. I am actually devastated for you.

93 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:36:07am

re: #74 LudwigVanQuixote

On an AGW note, I came across this comment the other day and am wondering if it's accurate?

At the height of the Permian Extinction, the oceans were not really water. The acted more like jello. They didn't "wave", they "jiggled."

The oceans also weren't blue; they were green.

Picture the ocean like a greenish jello, jiggling around.

That's what the oceans look like and behave like during heat-death extinction events, like the one which we have created for ourselves and our progeny (until there is no more "progeny").

94 Nervous Norvous  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:36:20am

re: #90 LudwigVanQuixote

Or it was satire...

beat me by 18 secs...upding for having the same brilliant thought.

95 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:37:24am

re: #92 LudwigVanQuixote

Yeah... it's shameful. I am soo very sorry you have to see something like this CL. I am actually devastated for you.

{{LVQ}}

96 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:37:41am

What exactly defines 'white'? Is it simply the skin colour? Does religion, or cultural heritage also figure in? Are Italians white because they are Christian, or because Italy is part of the EU?

Can someone from the ME be classed as white?

97 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:37:48am

re: #44 Lawrence Schmerel

I am surprised to learn that here that Sharia Law is currently part of the Tennessee Code. I had no idea. I wonder how got there.

And this is certainly a novel method for changing the law. Usually unwanted or outdated laws are repealed, not criminalized.

Dan'l Boone was a sekrit Muslim.

(BTW, on the Daily Show? John Oliver confusing the Madison protesters with the Cairo protesters? Tells older union guy, "It terrifies people to see this many Muslims in one place." Guy looks baffled. "Mooslims? No...well, I guess maybe some people here could be Mooslims, but not all of them.")

98 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:37:49am

re: #80 Lawrence Schmerel

Oh, I see:

Now that certainly sounds like it will pass Constitutional muster to me!

Assuming the linked bill is the same version of the text the article is about, I think the article overstates what would actually be criminalized. The part of it describing what is covered seemed pretty limited to what would be considered by most reasonable to be terrorist activities.

Of course, just because the bill limits what would actually be covered doesn't mean it can't/won't/isn't intended to be used in a much broader manner of harassment and intimidation. That is what the real goal is, most likely.

99 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:38:23am

re: #96 b_sharp

What exactly defines 'white'? Is it simply the skin colour? Does religion, or cultural heritage also figure in? Are Italians white because they are Christian, or because Italy is part of the EU?

Can someone from the ME be classed as white?

Okay everybody lets break out the color swatches!

100 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:39:26am

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Okay everybody lets break out the color swatches!

Image: AZ+crayons.jpg

101 RadicalModerate  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:39:34am

re: #56 avanti

A former college student in Texas on CNN now talking about his new organization He's President of the association: "Former Majority Association for Equality" He's seeking scholarship money for white males since we all know white males need all the help they can get with all the disadvantages they deal with in today's America./

His quote:

""We're not looking for blond-haired, blue-eyed, stereotypical white males," he said. "My feeling is that if you can say you're 25 percent Caucasian, you're Caucasian enough for us."

I wonder what groups will sponsor his fund ?

I saw a writeup on this story before the weekend, and posted at what ended up being at the end of a thread.

Reposting here if nobody saw it then:

Texas State students offer scholarships exclusively for white males

So Bohannan, a mass communication major and Iraq war veteran, and others formed the Former Majority Association for Equality — a San Marcos-based nonprofit group that is offering five $500 scholarships exclusively to white male students.

Bohannan, the group's president, said the name comes from the idea that "if you're not a male, and if you're not white, you're called a minority." However, he said, "I'm not sure white males are the majority anymore."
[...]
Bohannan's group isn't the first to offer scholarships only for white students. In 2006, Boston University's College Republicans created a program with similar requirements. A Republican group at a university in Rhode Island offered a similar award in 2004.

Those groups claimed the scholarships made a statement against affirmative action. Bohannan said his group is not taking any stance for or against affirmative action.

"It's time in our society to look at the way our culture views race," he said. "It's time to give everyone an equal shot."

102 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:39:48am

re: #50 Varek Raith

Gee, aren't the parts of Sharia Law most are against already unconstitutional to implement anyway???

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to cut the hands off thieves!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to blackmail your Christian neighbors for protection money!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to kill your daughter for dressing slutty!

Wait, it is.

103 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:40:07am

re: #87 CuriousLurker

*SIGH*

Chin up CL, you're a dynamite person, and no cracker or back alley barbarian, no matter where they live, should be allowed to bring you down.

104 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:40:20am

re: #96 b_sharp

What exactly defines 'white'? Is it simply the skin colour? Does religion, or cultural heritage also figure in? Are Italians white because they are Christian, or because Italy is part of the EU?

Can someone from the ME be classed as white?


Not subjectively. It means Northern European. Catholics will do if they are from Germany and if they are clean and orderly, but in general it does not extend to dark-skinned Europeans from Spain or Southern Europe, and generally does not cover most Eastern Europeans...

This is not a textbook definition or anything, I am just trying to sum up the bigots' definition of those folks they would include in their ideal "white" race.

105 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:40:26am

re: #97 SanFranciscoZionist

Dan'l Boone was a sekrit Muslim.

(BTW, on the Daily Show? John Oliver confusing the Madison protesters with the Cairo protesters? Tells older union guy, "It terrifies people to see this many Muslims in one place." Guy looks baffled. "Mooslims? No...well, I guess maybe some people here could be Mooslims, but not all of them.")

Hmmm. You know this guy does look kind of Daniel Boonish.

106 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:41:17am

America's really progressed if we're supporting Nazis introducing bills. Use to be, Nazis never got a fair shake. Especially ones with last names like Yerushalmi.
//

Makes you proud to be an American.

107 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:41:27am

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Okay everybody lets break out the color swatches!

Image: crayons.jpg

Note to self: Blogspot image links = FAIL...use alternatives

108 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:41:31am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to cut the hands off thieves!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to blackmail your Christian neighbors for protection money!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to kill your daughter for dressing slutty!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia to make it illegal to kill a doctor who performs abortions.

Wait a sec...

109 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:42:12am

re: #56 avanti

A former college student in Texas on CNN now talking about his new organization He's President of the association: "Former Majority Association for Equality" He's seeking scholarship money for white males since we all know white males need all the help they can get with all the disadvantages they deal with in today's America./

His quote:

""We're not looking for blond-haired, blue-eyed, stereotypical white males," he said. "My feeling is that if you can say you're 25 percent Caucasian, you're Caucasian enough for us."

I wonder what groups will sponsor his fund ?

He's too late. Whites in the past received scholarship help to assist the integration of Alabama's traditionally-black state colleges. They still might, though I don't think this is the way he wants to make up for "disadvantages".

110 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:42:29am

(Oh, and if it seems like I'm glossing over/ignoring the obvious bigotry in the submission and nature of this bill, it's because, well, it's obvious and, sadly, not new. Instead, I'm a bit more interested in figuring out exactly what this piece of legislation would do, should it somehow pass into law. Through that, I hope to better be able to judge just how far over the cliff things have gotten.)

111 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:43:28am

re: #104 ralphieboy

Not subjectively. It means Northern European. Catholics will do if they are from Germany and if they are clean and orderly, but in general it does not extend to dark-skinned Europeans from Spain or Southern Europe, and generally does not cover most Eastern Europeans...

This is not a textbook definition or anything, I am just trying to sum up the bigots' definition of those folks they would include in their ideal "white" race.

Latin Americans are not considered white because of the Native genes in the population aren't they, not because of the Spanish/Portuguese heritage?

112 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:43:40am

re: #72 albusteve

Anglos are, or soon will be the minority in Texas...I think that's his point


They're not going to be a particularly economically disadvantaged minority, though, are they?

113 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:43:49am

re: #110 Simply Sarah

If a Muslim group introduced a bill outlawing Christian influence, they'd be lit on fire and dragged through the streets.

114 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:44:48am

re: #102 SanFranciscoZionist

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to cut the hands off thieves!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to blackmail your Christian neighbors for protection money!!

Wait, it is.

We have to ban Sharia so it will be illegal to kill your daughter for dressing slutty!

Wait, it is.

But some day it may be once the Democratic Party-Uber Liber-Moozlim Brotherhood-Communist-Caliphate© takes over!!11ty Which should be any day now! We must have laws in place to prevent this!!11ty

Don't you listen to Beck?

//

115 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:45:31am

An interesting articles points out the biggest loser in the current Middle East upheaval, Al Qaeda.

As Regimes Fall in Arab World, Al Qaeda Sees History Fly By

For nearly two decades, the leaders of Al Qaeda have denounced the Arab world’s dictators as heretics and puppets of the West and called for their downfall. Now, people in country after country have risen to topple their leaders — and Al Qaeda has played absolutely no role.

In fact, the motley opposition movements that have appeared so suddenly and proved so powerful have shunned the two central tenets of the Qaeda credo: murderous violence and religious fanaticism. The demonstrators have used force defensively, treated Islam as an afterthought and embraced democracy, which is anathema to Osama bin Laden and his followers.

So for Al Qaeda — and perhaps no less for the American policies that have been built around the threat it poses — the democratic revolutions that have gripped the world’s attention present a crossroads. Will the terrorist network shrivel slowly to irrelevance? Or will it find a way to exploit the chaos produced by political upheaval and the disappointment that will inevitably follow hopes now raised so high?

116 jaunte  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:45:46am

re: #56 avanti

"We're not looking for blond-haired, blue-eyed, stereotypical white males," he said. "My feeling is that if you can say you're 25 percent Caucasian, you're Caucasian enough for us."


That covers a huge percentage of Hispanic people. Somehow I think he's find a way to object to them getting one of his scholarships.

117 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:47:08am

Laws for End Timers.

118 jaunte  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:47:22am

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

Protect the vanishing billionaires!

119 William of Orange  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:47:26am

(Oh man! We're so far ahead of the pack, it's dizzying! We've (semi-)legalized pot, abortion is legal, even euthanasia is practiced without penalty. And now this!)

In Dutch news today:

Dutch Education minister Maria van Bijsterveldt announced a new plan to teach evolution biology to children from 4 years old up! And only evolution, no creationism!

Link (in Dutch)

120 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:47:34am

re: #111 b_sharp

Latin Americans are not considered white because of the Native genes in the population aren't they, not because of the Spanish/Portuguese heritage?

No, it is probably because of Arab influence. Remember the Moors?

121 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:48:05am

re: #99 jamesfirecat

Okay everybody lets break out the color swatches!

Ever put your thumb through the color swatch matcher at the paint store?

122 Big Steve  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:48:12am

so long as we are talking about religion I think Tree Lobsters sums it up pretty well today.....Pot Kettle

123 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:49:43am

re: #105 Gus 802

Hmmm. You know this guy does look kind of Daniel Boonish.

That guy looks like he'd fit right in with Mad Max. The axe is a nice touch.

124 recusancy  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:03am

re: #87 CuriousLurker

*SIGH*

Are you in Tennessee or any of the 13 states?

125 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:08am

re: #99 jamesfirecat

I'm the only one in my household that would pass. (Well, and the terrier's mostly white.) I have some scary dark foreign looking mens around here...

126 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:08am

re: #113 theheat

If a Muslim group introduced a bill outlawing Christian influence, they'd be lit on fire and dragged through the streets.

Well, whatever pieces of them that were left would, yes. The double-standards are breathtaking and nauseating, but, on the whole, par for the course. The existence of irrational anti-Muslim hatred is well documented, but exactly how far out on a limb a politician feels they can go to try and write that bigotry into law can help us measure the depth of those waters. Or, at least, that's my hope. Shut up, I'm weird.

127 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:15am

We now await word from the leader of the intellectual wing of the anti-Jihadist movement, Pamela Geller.

//

128 William of Orange  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:31am

Mind you, that link is from an article written from a Christian point of view, so it's written inthere that they regret this plan. Figures...

129 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:50:43am

re: #96 b_sharp

What exactly defines 'white'? Is it simply the skin colour? Does religion, or cultural heritage also figure in? Are Italians white because they are Christian, or because Italy is part of the EU?

Can someone from the ME be classed as white?

Until the Obama victory brought on the Racist Renaissance, I couldn't imagine anyone from the ME not being considered "white".

130 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:51:31am

re: #103 b_sharp

Chin up CL, you're a dynamite person, and no cracker or back alley barbarian, no matter where they live, should be allowed to bring you down.

Thanks. {{b_sharp}}

It's just that I know this is going to go on at LEAST through 11/2012. I also know that it's going to get worse before it gets better, but I'm already feeling exhausted by all the lies & vitriol. It's as if these creeps are striving to create a self-fulfilling prophecy whereby they so completely disenfranchise American Muslims that they/we actually do become widely radicalized in response.

131 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:11am

re: #114 Gus 802

But some day it may be once the Democratic Party-Uber Liber-Moozlim Brotherhood-Communist-Caliphate© takes over!!11ty Which should be any day now! We must have laws in place to prevent this!!11ty

Don't you listen to Beck?

//

This reminds me of the guy I tried to stop, at a demo, from yelling "Pigs for Palestine" at the Women in Black. He got mad, and told me that being nice wouldn't help when the jihadis came to cut my throat.

I told him that I was forever indebted to him for letting me know that yelling "Pigs for Palestine" WOULD help.

The Constitution, and our state and federal laws can't protect us from Sharia, but apparently this special bill CAN.

Good to know.

132 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:18am

re: #82 jaunte

What kind of a name is Ketron? Sounds like a corporation.

Either that or a law firm.

Ketron, Ketron and Ketron.

KKK

//

133 avanti  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:27am

re: #112 SanFranciscoZionist

They're not going to be a particularly economically disadvantaged minority, though, are they?

Of course they are, the only jobs for whites in Texas are keeping up the gardens on the Hispanic estates./

134 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:27am

re: #124 recusancy

Are you in Tennessee or any of the 13 states?

No, thank goodness (for now) I'm in NJ.

135 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:34am

I hate to say it, but a lot of this paranoia over sharia is related to the US having a president whose middle name is Hussein (and whose father was both black and Muslim...gasp!)

Birthers and other know-nothing reactionaries really see their precious white Christian nation under attack, and they believe that attack's home base is the White House. It's no longer a surprise when an idiot in TN, or most other parts of the country, introduces legislation like this. It's consistent with the xenophobic culture war the right is currently waging.

136 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:55am

re: #115 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

An interesting articles points out the biggest loser in the current Middle East upheaval, Al Qaeda.

As Regimes Fall in Arab World, Al Qaeda Sees History Fly By

That must be why bin Laden is putting hallucinogens in Libyans' Nescafe.

//

137 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:52:58am

re: #126 Simply Sarah

The double-standards are breathtaking and nauseating, but, on the whole, par for the course. The existence of irrational anti-Muslim hatred is well documented.

It appears a large portion of the Christian population has rabies. They creep me the fuck out.

138 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:53:19am

re: #116 jaunte

That covers a huge percentage of Hispanic people. Somehow I think he's find a way to object to them getting one of his scholarships.

That also covers an awful lot of black Americans.

139 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:53:56am

The fears about certain states becoming "majority minority" reminds me of fears that people in 19th centurY america had of their states and cities turning majority or strongly Catholic ethnic. Oh noes the Irish, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. It's the same crap just a different flavor.

140 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:54:29am

re: #121 SanFranciscoZionist

Ever put your thumb through the color swatch matcher at the paint store?

It doesn't give you your skin tone, because the flash lights up the blood under the skin, so you end up with a much darker tone. But it's still fun to do, especially if you're with a group of people who've been drinking.

141 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:54:49am

re: #93 publicityStunted

On an AGW note, I came across this comment the other day and am wondering if it's accurate?

I think that is a little over the top.

My understanding of the Permian extinction was that it was caused by a combination of extreme volcanic activity, leading to a massive increase in CO2 the atmosphere (which occurred over a years!) and more importantly in the oceans, leading to the death of most phyto plankton. This segued with a massive increase in the production of SO2 from other oceanic sufate reducing bacterium and a massive release of oceanic methane.

The upshot was drastic climate change coupled with ocean anoxia and too much SO2 in the atmosphere.

When people who study climate like me want to be kept awake at night we look at methane release from the oceans, and SO2 blooms coupled with the over 40% reduction in oceanic phytoplankton in the last 50 years.

142 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:55:25am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

That must be why bin Laden is putting hallucinogens in Libyans' Nescafe.

//

Keep tabs on Nescafe sales. A sudden rise in Nescafe sales can only mean one thing: a Moozlim uprising is at hand!

//

143 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:57:04am

re: #141 LudwigVanQuixote


PIMF

I think that is a little over the top.

My understanding of the Permian extinction was that it was caused by a combination of extreme volcanic activity, leading to a massive increase in CO2 the atmosphere (which occurred over a hundred years! or so) and more importantly in the oceans, leading to the death of most phyto plankton. This segued with a massive increase in the production of SO2 from other oceanic sufate reducing bacterium and a massive release of oceanic methane.

The upshot was drastic climate change coupled with ocean anoxia and too much SO2 in the atmosphere.

When people who study climate like me want to be kept awake at night we look at methane release from the oceans, and SO2 blooms coupled with the over 40% reduction in oceanic phytoplankton in the last 50 years.

144 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:57:13am

re: #139 HappyWarrior

The fears about certain states becoming "majority minority" reminds me of fears that people in 19th centurY america had of their states and cities turning majority or strongly Catholic ethnic. Oh noes the Irish, Germans, Poles, Jews, etc. It's the same crap just a different flavor.

Good point. Urban America already is majority minority. Much of the rest of the country is slowly but surely moving in that direction. If we really are the great melting pot we claim to be, there really shouldn't be any problem. But the right's culture warriors don't see it that way.

145 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:57:22am

re: #136 SanFranciscoZionist

That must be why bin Laden is putting hallucinogens in Libyans' Nescafe.

//

re: #142 Gus 802

Keep tabs on Nescafe sales. A sudden rise in Nescafe sales can only mean one thing: a Moozlim uprising is at hand!

//

Okay, y'all are actually making me LOL. This is a good thing.

146 RadicalModerate  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:57:25am

re: #106 theheat

America's really progressed if we're supporting Nazis introducing bills. Use to be, Nazis never got a fair shake. Especially ones with last names like Yerushalmi.
//

Makes you proud to be an American.

Twenty years ago, Republicans told David Duke that they didn't want him to run for Louisiana Governor with a (R) next to his name, and went as far as campaigning for his Democratic opponent, (former) Gov. Edwin Edwards, going as far as distributing bumper stickers saying "Vote for the Crook. It's Important".

Now we move to today, and what do we have in the GOP leadership? Lots and lots of Dukes' brothers-in-arms actually in positions of real power.

One of the reasons I moved out of Louisiana back then was because of the fact that the area of the state that I had lived in, Duke had over 50% of the vote - and this wasn't a rural area. More and more we're witnessing that his rotten seed is taking root all over the country with racial and other identity-based politics. And it's getting worse instead of getting better.

147 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:57:40am

re: #138 SanFranciscoZionist

That also covers an awful lot of black Americans.

OF course it does.

148 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:59:46am

re: #147 LudwigVanQuixote

Heh. Going by basic genetic theory, it covers every human being.

149 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:59:57am

re: #144 palomino

Good point. Urban America already is majority minority. Much of the rest of the country is slowly but surely moving in that direction. If we really are the great melting pot we claim to be, there really shouldn't be any problem. But the right's culture warriors don't see it that way.

I think really it's just another changing point in history. Before the Potato Famine and Revolutions of 1848, the country was much more heavily Protestant than it is now. Immigrants and especially their children Americanize at a very high rate. Heck I imagine a good chunk of the soldiers in WWI and WWII were the children of immigrants and in WWI more so immigrants themselvse. Distant relative of mine was Czechoslovakian native who joined the USMC two years before Pearl Harbor.

150 Lidane  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 10:59:59am

Gotta love that GOP minority outreach, y'all.

151 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:00:09am

re: #129 Decatur Deb

Until the Obama victory brought on the Racist Renaissance, I couldn't imagine anyone from the ME not being considered "white".

Well, racists don't like to consider them white, because, you know, ARABS, and multiculti twit types (I believe in multiculturalism, but not stupid multiculturalism) find a way to define out of whiteness anyone who has, you know, a cool exotic culture or is oppressed.

Of course, I fall on the hilarious diving line whereby some people will insist that Ashkenazim are 'white', and Mizrahim are 'not', even if we look exactly the same. Then there's the weird tendency on some people's part to define Latin American Jews, even if Ashkenazi as 'people of color', hence, my cousins in Argentina are, and I'm not.

And then you get people like Kay, who describe the Knesset as 'pasty white'.

It's not easy being a Semite!!

152 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:01:12am

re: #134 CuriousLurker

No, thank goodness (for now) I'm in NJ.

I think New Jersey might be a hard sell for this sort of thing.

153 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:01:17am

Senator Bill Ketron proposes to make April Tennessee's very own Slobodan Milošević Month.

//

154 Obdicut  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:02:10am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

If I tan, I turn nut-brown and look both Hispanic and Levantine. When I don't, I'm very, very pale. I'm a person of color if I want to be, I guess.

155 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:02:48am

re: #142 Gus 802

Keep tabs on Nescafe sales. A sudden rise in Nescafe sales can only mean one thing: a Moozlim uprising is at hand!

//

That actually surprises me, given how horrified my Iraqi former boss was about my drinking instant coffee. Of course, she's Jewish, so maybe it's different.

156 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:03:15am

re: #145 CuriousLurker

re: #142 Gus 802

Okay, y'all are actually making me LOL. This is a good thing.

Big hug. This sucks. But it too shall pass.

157 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:03:32am

re: #146 RadicalModerate

I gotta go with the minorities on this one. I'm not getting sucked into this poor white America shit, and I'm certainly not going to sit around welcoming a good clubbing with a bible. These asshats are doing precisely what they say Muslims are intent on doing to us: live our way or else.

158 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:03:36am

re: #146 RadicalModerate

Twenty years ago, Republicans told David Duke that they didn't want him to run for Louisiana Governor with a (R) next to his name, and went as far as campaigning for his Democratic opponent, (former) Gov. Edwin Edwards, going as far as distributing bumper stickers saying "Vote for the Crook. It's Important".

Now we move to today, and what do we have in the GOP leadership? Lots and lots of Dukes' brothers-in-arms actually in positions of real power.

One of the reasons I moved out of Louisiana back then was because of the fact that the area of the state that I had lived in, Duke had over 50% of the vote - and this wasn't a rural area. More and more we're witnessing that his rotten seed is taking root all over the country with racial and other identity-based politics. And it's getting worse instead of getting better.

I remember that election. What an embarrassment. IIRC, Duke proclaimed victory even in defeat because "I got the majority of the white vote."

Fifty years ago, when whites made up over 80% of the US population, Duke and his counterparts felt comfortable in their knowledge that they were in control, racially speaking. Now they feel threatened, and thus act like cornered animals.

159 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:04:28am

Sorry if I'm repeating something, as I don't have time to more than scan the thread.

What happens where sharia law and our current law overlap.

It's illegal to steal in both laws.

It's illegal to murder in both laws.

What then?

160 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:04:30am

Ohh and everyone else... The very short form is that the Permian extinction killed off over 90% of all species on Earth.

That is what happens when you cross enough tipping points, and we are marching towards such tipping points right this instant.

In other words, if nothing is done to change our emissions patterns, it is actually possible as in a credible, non zero chance, that we are condemning ourselves and many other to extinction some 2-300 years down the line.

161 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:05:28am

re: #150 Lidane

Gotta love that GOP minority outreach, y'all.

What makes it really stupid is that your average observant American Muslim is likely to be pretty socially & fiscally conservative. I have no doubt the GOP has cost itself several million votes for the foreseeable future.

162 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:05:31am

Also, I own property, and I'm considered white. If I had a sex-change operation (not considering it, just saying), would I then be eligible to vote?

What if I just got a doctor say I did? Will they demand to see genitals before you vote?

163 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:05:33am

Ugh. I just saw a hoagie during a Google search. Now I'm hungry.

164 Sol Berdinowitz  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:05:41am

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh and everyone else... The very short form is that the Permian extinction killed off over 90% of all species on Earth.

That is what happens when you cross enough tipping points, and we are marching towards such tipping points right this instant.

In other words, if nothing is done to change our emissions patterns, it is actually possible as in a credible, non zero chance, that we are condemning ourselves and many other to extinction some 2-300 years down the line.

A Christian God would not allow that to happen. But if we reject him and accept the Mooslim God, then he would.

/

165 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:06:11am

re: #156 SanFranciscoZionist

Big hug. This sucks. But it too shall pass.

Thanks. {{SFZ}}

166 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:06:23am
“Why can’t he (Obama) come forward and show he is a citizen?”

I'm also hoping that some state will pass a law requiring all presidential candidates to prove that they aren't socialist/Communist/Nazi/racist black supremacist/Kenyan/sekret Muslim/terrorist palin' around with/witch doctors, as well.

167 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:06:34am

re: #150 Lidane

Gotta love that GOP minority outreach, y'all.

I wonder about that. Do Republicans not understand the demographics, or are they just happy to continue their southern strategy of appealing to a shrinking white base? Just because it feels so good and right.

Either way, their strategy is not a long-term winner and talk of a permanent gop majority is even more absurd now than it was a decade ago.

168 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:06:53am

BIAB/W

169 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:06:54am

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

(Christian) God will take care of us. Have more babies. Lots more babies.
//

170 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:07:26am

re: #162 EmmmieG

Also, I own property, and I'm considered white. If I had a sex-change operation (not considering it, just saying), would I then be eligible to vote?

What if I just got a doctor say I did? Will they demand to see genitals before you vote?

Well, I would allow you to vote, but then, I would allow you to vote while female, not white, and without property.

//

171 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:07:35am

re: #167 palomino

I wonder about that. Do Republicans not understand the demographics, or are they just happy to continue their southern strategy of appealing to a shrinking white base? Just because it feels so good and right.

Either way, their strategy is not a long-term winner and talk of a permanent gop majority is even more absurd now than it was a decade ago.

The current GOP is the party of "What I want! Right now!"

172 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:08:11am

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

Just curious what to hear what you have to say about Judith Curry jumping the shark.

173 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:08:44am

re: #154 Obdicut

If I tan, I turn nut-brown and look both Hispanic and Levantine. When I don't, I'm very, very pale. I'm a person of color if I want to be, I guess.

I have two well defined colours, depending on the season - ghostly white and neon red.

No matter the colour, my freckles stand out like dog poop on snow.

174 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:08:52am

re: #152 SanFranciscoZionist

I think New Jersey might be a hard sell for this sort of thing.

Yeah, Gov. Christie has stayed off the Bad Crazy Bandwagon so far, and in any event there are tons of Muslims up here, so it really wouldn't fly (at least not in North Jersey).

175 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:09:06am

re: #164 ralphieboy

A Christian God would not allow that to happen. But if we reject him and accept the Mooslim God, then he would.

/

Because you know, G-d never pushes the smite button... He never allows the innocent to die with the wicked. He never allows peoples and nations to suffer the consequences of their choices... He never allows awful tragedies to occur....

Stupid...

Stupid!.....

STUPID!

176 thecommodore  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:09:25am

Good God! And watch, there will be no public distancing from this wackadoodle by Tennessee Republicans, because Republicans in TN, and in this country, need this kind of bad craziness in order to win and keep power.

If conservatives today rejected out of hand this kind of paranoid conspiracy fear mongering and stuck to principles alone, they would be lucky to have 100 seats in the House, and 30 in the Senate.

In other words, they would be irrelevant.

And I know that if I posted this as a comment on a conservative site, fellow dittohead commenters on said site would jump all over me with countless examples of how the "Left"* has done the same thing - all without making a thoughtful compare/contrast commentary about why they thing what the "Left" has done is worse. They'll just let that stand alone, as if it justifies what the "Right" has done. And it is true that the "Left" did it's share of conspiracy and fear mongering during the Bush years.

But nothing like this. Nothing even close.

Anyway...

*Why do right wingers spell "Left" with a capitol "L?" It's as if they are ascribing some kind of religious significance to the "Left," in the way some christians refer to Christ as "Him." Maybe?

177 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:10:14am

re: #160 LudwigVanQuixote

Ohh and everyone else... The very short form is that the Permian extinction killed off over 90% of all species on Earth.

That is what happens when you cross enough tipping points, and we are marching towards such tipping points right this instant.

In other words, if nothing is done to change our emissions patterns, it is actually possible as in a credible, non zero chance, that we are condemning ourselves and many other to extinction some 2-300 years down the line.

LVQ, if you are still here, would you be willing to be an expert guest on a (Canuck version) right-wing radio talk show?

178 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:10:18am

re: #164 ralphieboy

And I saw the sarc tag... It's just of all the truly stupid things you hear from wing nuts, that is easily the most dumb, since presumably they have read the Bible.

179 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:10:49am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, racists don't like to consider them white, because, you know, ARABS, and multiculti twit types (I believe in multiculturalism, but not stupid multiculturalism) find a way to define out of whiteness anyone who has, you know, a cool exotic culture or is oppressed.

Of course, I fall on the hilarious diving line whereby some people will insist that Ashkenazim are 'white', and Mizrahim are 'not', even if we look exactly the same. Then there's the weird tendency on some people's part to define Latin American Jews, even if Ashkenazi as 'people of color', hence, my cousins in Argentina are, and I'm not.

And then you get people like Kay, who describe the Knesset as 'pasty white'.

It's not easy being a Semite!!

Crap--it was easier when they just pushed the 'one drop' rule. (You do realize most of the people who really care about this couldn't tell an Ashkenasi from an Austin-Healey.)

180 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:10:49am

re: #167 palomino

I wonder about that. Do Republicans not understand the demographics, or are they just happy to continue their southern strategy of appealing to a shrinking white base? Just because it feels so good and right.

Either way, their strategy is not a long-term winner and talk of a permanent gop majority is even more absurd now than it was a decade ago.

THey're desperate for a new Reagan.He's all they ever talk about. They seem to forget that the country is at a different place than it was when he was first elected. Democrats eventually realized that they couldn't go on using FDR forever.

181 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:10:53am

re: #177 b_sharp

LVQ, if you are still here, would you be willing to be an expert guest on a (Canuck version) right-wing radio talk show?

LOL... a right wing talk show? will I get my mike cut off?

182 Ericus58  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:11:36am

#1910: The organisation responsible for monitoring Libya's reserves of mustard gas has told the BBC it is "as concerned as everyone else" about the possibility of it falling into the wrong hands.

183 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:11:40am

re: #161 CuriousLurker

What makes it really stupid is that your average observant American Muslim is likely to be pretty socially & fiscally conservative. I have no doubt the GOP has cost itself several million votes for the foreseeable future.

And the same is true, multiplied at least tenfold, for Hispanics. Some were moving toward the gop, but are now repelled by the party's anti-immigrant rhetoric and the passage of legislation like the controversial bill in AZ.

184 theheat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:11:53am

re: #176 thecommodore

*Why do right wingers spell "Left" with a capitol "L?" It's as if they are ascribing some kind of religious significance to the "Left," in the way some christians refer to Christ as "Him." Maybe?

It's such a phenomenon, you can Google it.

I think this is probably cross-linked with their love of Comic Sans.

185 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:12:02am

re: #170 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, I would allow you to vote, but then, I would allow you to vote while female, not white, and without property.

//

Appeaser!!1!11

186 jaunte  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:13:36am

re: #176 thecommodore

It's because the Left is a Sinister Capitalized Plot from the Dark One./

187 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:14:11am

re: #172 Talking Point Detective

Just curious what to hear what you have to say about Judith Curry jumping the shark.

I missed out on that. If I recall, shes been a bit political about her stances (which is to say, not wanting to piss of Republicans) What did she say?

188 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:15:04am

re: #151 SanFranciscoZionist

Well, racists don't like to consider them white, because, you know, ARABS, and multiculti twit types (I believe in multiculturalism, but not stupid multiculturalism) find a way to define out of whiteness anyone who has, you know, a cool exotic culture or is oppressed.

Of course, I fall on the hilarious diving line whereby some people will insist that Ashkenazim are 'white', and Mizrahim are 'not', even if we look exactly the same. Then there's the weird tendency on some people's part to define Latin American Jews, even if Ashkenazi as 'people of color', hence, my cousins in Argentina are, and I'm not.

And then you get people like Kay, who describe the Knesset as 'pasty white'.

It's not easy being a Semite!!

And aren't these the same morans who claim that Ashkenazim aren't "real" Jews, but "Khazars" even though they have the exact same DNA as Sephardim and Mizrachim?

189 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:15:13am

re: #181 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL... a right wing talk show? will I get my mike cut off?

Not usually. As a caller I do, but the host doesn't (yet) have a penchant for interrupting guests.

I'd love to put you opposite Tim Ball or Lorne Gunter.

190 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:15:41am

re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote

And I saw the sarc tag... It's just of all the truly stupid things you hear from wing nuts, that is easily the most dumb, since presumably they have read the Bible.

Have you noticed how pissed they get when you counter a "God's plan" comment with "What if its God's plan for us to stop it?"

191 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:03am

re: #176 thecommodore

Well if they were completely honest and said vote Republican to serve your corporate masters and we won't let you attack people who scare you and uppity women, then they would not have a chance.

192 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:14am

re: #175 LudwigVanQuixote

Because you know, G-d never pushes the smite button... He never allows the innocent to die with the wicked. He never allows peoples and nations to suffer the consequences of their choices... He never allows awful tragedies to occur...

Stupid...

Stupid!...

STUPID!

Correction. God pushes the smite button when it's a matter of homosexuality, but not otherwise.

//

193 Interesting Times  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:22am

re: #187 LudwigVanQuixote

I missed out on that. If I recall, shes been a bit political about her stances (which is to say, not wanting to piss of Republicans) What did she say?

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] and [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] - excellent info there about what utter lying sleazebags the climate change deniers are.

194 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:33am

re: #176 thecommodore

*Why do right wingers spell "Left" with a capitol "L?" It's as if they are ascribing some kind of religious significance to the "Left," in the way some christians refer to Christ as "Him." Maybe?

By capitalizing it, they group everyone that may (or may not) left leaning into their view of a monolithic Left that has completely shared ideas and goals. Makes demonizing much easier and cuts time wasted, uh, thinking.

195 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:50am

I think G.W Bush and his advisers for all their warts realized that Hispanic voters were and are going to make a good chunk of the voting bloc so Bush made a conscious effort to court them in to the party. I think he got up to 40% of the vote in 2004 nationwide with Hispanics and he did really well with those from his state. I am not a big fan of Bush but this was one area where he was miles ahead of his party in. I saw some parts of a speech he gave at I think Texas A&M recently decrying isolationism, know-nothingism, and protectionism. IT was weird for me having been a Bush critic for much of his presidency but I saw that and thought "Right on, Mr. President, right on!"

196 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:16:53am

re: #176 thecommodore

Good God! And watch, there will be no public distancing from this wackadoodle by Tennessee Republicans, because Republicans in TN, and in this country, need this kind of bad craziness in order to win and keep power.

If conservatives today rejected out of hand this kind of paranoid conspiracy fear mongering and stuck to principles alone, they would be lucky to have 100 seats in the House, and 30 in the Senate.

In other words, they would be irrelevant.

And I know that if I posted this as a comment on a conservative site, fellow dittohead commenters on said site would jump all over me with countless examples of how the "Left"* has done the same thing - all without making a thoughtful compare/contrast commentary about why they thing what the "Left" has done is worse. They'll just let that stand alone, as if it justifies what the "Right" has done. And it is true that the "Left" did it's share of conspiracy and fear mongering during the Bush years.

But nothing like this. Nothing even close.

Anyway...

*Why do right wingers spell "Left" with a capitol "L?" It's as if they are ascribing some kind of religious significance to the "Left," in the way some christians refer to Christ as "Him." Maybe?

Sometimes, I do this, and then I ask for examples. Some of those times I get examples. Once in a very great while it's an actually comparable example. Most of the time, however, you're right.

197 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:17:11am

re: #190 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Have you noticed how pissed they get when you counter a "God's plan" comment with "What if its God's plan for us to stop it?"

LOL, yes, use it all the time - and then I back it up with numerous cases from the bible where G-d is crystal clear in giving warnings and then the stuff goes down when people do not pay heed.

198 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:17:15am

re: #188 Alouette

And aren't these the same morans who claim that Ashkenazim aren't "real" Jews, but "Khazars" even though they have the exact same DNA as Sephardim and Mizrachim?

Yes indeedy.

199 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:17:57am

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Correction. God pushes the smite button when it's a matter of homosexuality, but not otherwise.

//

I got one.
Image: 1417000-smite_1_super.jpg

200 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:19:19am

re: #180 HappyWarrior

THey're desperate for a new Reagan.He's all they ever talk about. They seem to forget that the country is at a different place than it was when he was first elected. Democrats eventually realized that they couldn't go on using FDR forever.

The Reagan fetishism is hilarious. They fall all over themselves gushing over Reagan, all the while pretending like the two gop presidents who followed Reagan never existed.

Republicans have already decided that Obama is Jimmy Carter, thus the next president must be Reagan. But there's no one in the field even as accomplished as Reagan was in 1980.

201 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:20:01am

I've never noticed that regarding "the Left". I do like the point made that they do like to see the Left as a monolithic bloc. I had one right winger tell me "you liberals love Hugo Chavez." I was like uh man I am as liberal as it gets and I hate that guy and I can point you to many others. It doesn't drive me crazy but I find it stupid is when they call the Democratic Party, "The Democrat Party" and then wonder why people don't like that. Would they like the Republic Party?

202 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:20:08am

re: #193 publicityStunted

See [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] and [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...] - excellent info there about what utter lying sleazebags the climate change deniers are.

Head Desk.

Here is a great piece on her and here is something that I should turn into a page:

[Link: climateprogress.org...]

203 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:21:21am

re: #198 SanFranciscoZionist

Yes indeedy.

Speaking of Judaism, my local grocery store now has a kosher frozen-food section.

Yeah for Jews in Hillsboro being able to buy not-as-good-as-homemade-but-sometimes-you-just-want-to-eat-now food.

204 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:21:47am

re: #183 palomino

And the same is true, multiplied at least tenfold, for Hispanics. Some were moving toward the gop, but are now repelled by the party's anti-immigrant rhetoric and the passage of legislation like the controversial bill in AZ.

Exactly. And as someone who's Muslim AND half Hispanic AND a woman who doesn't want the GOP in my womb, I'm triply pissed & disgusted. I've occasionally pulled the "R" lever in the past, but you can be sure that'll never, ever happen again unless I see a Republican who's willing to stand up for what's right and call out the crazy. Fat chance of that happening these days.

205 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:21:50am

re: #197 LudwigVanQuixote

LOL, yes, use it all the time - and then I back it up with numerous cases from the bible where G-d is crystal clear in giving warnings and then the stuff goes down when people do not pay heed.

And straight to the punchline;

So God says, "I sent you a truck, a boat and helicopter. What the hell else did you want?"

206 HappyWarrior  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:21:56am

re: #200 palomino

The Reagan fetishism is hilarious. They fall all over themselves gushing over Reagan, all the while pretending like the two gop presidents who followed Reagan never existed.

Republicans have already decided that Obama is Jimmy Carter, thus the next president must be Reagan. But there's no one in the field even as accomplished as Reagan was in 1980.

Oh they acknowledge their existence all right, it's just that Bush I and II are now "liberals." And yeah I've seen them compare Obama to Carter from the outsight and I am not seeing it. Now I wasn't born in to the late 80's but Obama is much different from Carter especially in his style.

207 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:22:01am

re: #192 SanFranciscoZionist

Correction. God pushes the smite button when it's a matter of homosexuality, but not otherwise.

//

Actually not so much... The sin of Sodom was corrupt courts, cruelty to the poor and a notion of "what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours"

Seriously. The sexual stuff was a big deal too, but the Rabbinic literature was much more focussed on the very Republican ways that the Sodomites did things.

208 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:23:09am

re: #193 publicityStunted

And thank you much for the links. Good stuff.

209 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:24:10am

I have to get back to work and I can't keep up with all the great comments flying by, so consider your lizard selves enthusiastically updinged until I can come back later and catch up.

~~~GONE~~~

210 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:24:47am

re: #207 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually not so much... The sin of Sodom was corrupt courts, cruelty to the poor and a notion of "what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours"

Seriously. The sexual stuff was a big deal too, but the Rabbinic literature was much more focussed on the very Republican ways that the Sodomites did things.

Wasn't what sexual stuff that was there mostly focused on the rape and the going after angels and all that, anyway? At least, going by what I've read in Catholic versions of the story.

211 engineer cat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:25:30am

re: #206 HappyWarrior

Oh they acknowledge their existence all right, it's just that Bush I and II are now "liberals." And yeah I've seen them compare Obama to Carter from the outsight and I am not seeing it. Now I wasn't born in to the late 80's but Obama is much different from Carter especially in his style.

wingnuts work hard every day to twist and bend reality to conform to their preconceptions

212 darthstar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:26:00am

Stolen from the facebook:

A unionized public employee, a member of the Tea Party, and a CEO are sitting at a table. In the middle of the table there is a plate with a dozen cookies on it. The CEO reaches across and takes 11 cookies, looks at the Tea Partier, and says,"look out for that union guy, he wants a piece of your cookie."

213 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:28:41am

re: #195 HappyWarrior

I think G.W Bush and his advisers for all their warts realized that Hispanic voters were and are going to make a good chunk of the voting bloc so Bush made a conscious effort to court them in to the party. I think he got up to 40% of the vote in 2004 nationwide with Hispanics and he did really well with those from his state. I am not a big fan of Bush but this was one area where he was miles ahead of his party in. I saw some parts of a speech he gave at I think Texas A&M recently decrying isolationism, know-nothingism, and protectionism. IT was weird for me having been a Bush critic for much of his presidency but I saw that and thought "Right on, Mr. President, right on!"

Yeah, Rove was a big believer in outreach to minorities, particularly Hispanics. Rove did this not to achieve sainthood; rather he knows how to count and wants to win elections.

It's really simple on one level: whites are shrinking while blacks, Hispanics, Asians and Muslims are growing. An almost exclusively white party can still win, but it gets a little harder every day. Every single day.

214 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:31:28am

re: #210 Simply Sarah

Wasn't what sexual stuff that was there mostly focused on the rape and the going after angels and all that, anyway? At least, going by what I've read in Catholic versions of the story.

Well, the thing is, that the Christians rejected to oral tradition.

If you look in the Midrash and the Talmud, you see all sorts of stories about how corrupt, cruel and greedy the Sodomites were.

There is a famous story about a servant of Abraham who passed through Sodom and a man through a rock at his head. The man then charged the servant for a medical treatment (bleeding) and the court agreed with him. Abraham's man then took a rock and through it at the judge's head and told him to pay the plaintiff his fee.

There is Pirkei Avot which explicitly mentions "what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours" as the way of Sodom, because it allows one to feel no mercy or compassion for the needy.

Yes, there is all sorts of nasty sexual activity and idol worship etc in Sodom and Gomorrah. However, again and again what you see is abuse of the weak, corruption of justice and government to serve the wealthy at the expense of the poor and an overall attitude of callous greed that knows no shame or limit to cruelty when money is involved.

215 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:32:02am

On an unrelated topic, the anchors on CNN were just reporting on repairs (or replacement perhaps) of a refrigeration unit on the space station and proceeded on to a bit of random chat about not understanding how you can cool something using propane. So cooling with electricity makes perfect sense but getting your energy for cooling from gas doesn't?

Facepalm.

Could we require just a little tiny bit of science education? Please?

216 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:32:23am

re: #206 HappyWarrior

Oh they acknowledge their existence all right, it's just that Bush I and II are now "liberals." And yeah I've seen them compare Obama to Carter from the outsight and I am not seeing it. Now I wasn't born in to the late 80's but Obama is much different from Carter especially in his style.

A party that has to disavow its former leaders is a party that's moved to far to the extreme on the ideological scale. Neither of the Bushes was a huge success, but the idea that they weren't conservatives is absurd.

217 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:33:18am

re: #215 calochortus

On an unrelated topic, the anchors on CNN were just reporting on repairs (or replacement perhaps) of a refrigeration unit on the space station and proceeded on to a bit of random chat about not understanding how you can cool something using propane. So cooling with electricity makes perfect sense but getting your energy for cooling from gas doesn't?

Facepalm.

Could we require just a little tiny bit of science education? Please?

This is what happens when places stop having dedicated science correspondents.

218 William of Orange  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:33:22am

For your entertainment.

"The King's Speech" won 4 major Oscars today and the boys from Eclectic Method made an unbelievable tribute to this film.

W.... w... wi... withou... without furth... further ad.....

219 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:35:16am

re: #215 calochortus

On an unrelated topic, the anchors on CNN were just reporting on repairs (or replacement perhaps) of a refrigeration unit on the space station and proceeded on to a bit of random chat about not understanding how you can cool something using propane. So cooling with electricity makes perfect sense but getting your energy for cooling from gas doesn't?

Facepalm.

Could we require just a little tiny bit of science education? Please?

But but propane burns and that is hot.... How could that work?

NUMBSKULLS.

We have science "debates" in this nation because the average American would fail a legitimate 10th grade science test (and that is American 10th grade for the average American kid). I don't even like to think about how the Average American would fail 5th grade in any of the Western European countries, Russia, China or Israel.

220 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:35:53am

re: #215 calochortus

On an unrelated topic, the anchors on CNN were just reporting on repairs (or replacement perhaps) of a refrigeration unit on the space station and proceeded on to a bit of random chat about not understanding how you can cool something using propane. So cooling with electricity makes perfect sense but getting your energy for cooling from gas doesn't?

Facepalm.

Could we require just a little tiny bit of science education? Please?

Image: shuttle-speed.jpg

221 William of Orange  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:36:07am

Damn video won't load... Here it is.

222 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:36:10am

re: #207 LudwigVanQuixote

Actually not so much... The sin of Sodom was corrupt courts, cruelty to the poor and a notion of "what is mine is mine and what is yours is yours"

Seriously. The sexual stuff was a big deal too, but the Rabbinic literature was much more focussed on the very Republican ways that the Sodomites did things.

Ludwig, are there any of the commentaries in English that go into this? I'd find it very helpful (on any of a number of levels) to have something like that when I'm studying my JPS Tanakh.

223 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:37:29am

re: #220 Varek Raith

Image: shuttle-speed.jpg

That's Warp 2.37!

224 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:38:29am

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

But but propane burns and that is hot... How could that work?

NUMBSKULLS.
.

Unlike that cold, cold electricity. But wait, lightbulbs get hot. My head, its exploding. /

225 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:39:05am

re: #223 Varek Raith

That's Warp 2.37!

Pff, Warp speed. What does the Federation really know about the Warp?

226 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:40:29am

re: #222 wlewisiii

Ludwig, are there any of the commentaries in English that go into this? I'd find it very helpful (on any of a number of levels) to have something like that when I'm studying my JPS Tanakh.

Sure...

Kehati is hardly the be all end all commenter on the Mishna, however, there are more than enough references here for you to google away to your heart's content:

PIRKEI AVOT: CHAPTER 5: MISHNAH 10

There are four types of people. He who says: 'Mine is mine and yours is yours' - this is the average type; and some say, this typifies Sodom; (He who says) 'Mine is yours and yours is mine' is an am ha-aretz; (He who says) 'Mine is yours and yours is yours' is a pious man; (And he who says) 'Mine is mine and yours is mine' is a wicked man .

Kehati

There are four types of people - varieties of social attitudes expressed in personal or material relations.

1) He who says: 'Mine is mine and yours is yours' - you are not to benefit from me, anymore than I should benefit from you, this is the average type - of person who, though hardly a saint, can neither be called wicked, since he limits his gains to his own domain and does not reach out for what belongs to others; and some say, this typifies Sodom - the refusal to share an advantage with others was a vice practiced by the Sodomites, who thereby ruled out the practice of hospitality. Moreover, they were heartless towards the poor and the stricken, as it is written (Ezek. 16:49); "Behold, this was the iniquity of your sister Sodom: pride, fullness of bread, and careless ease was in her and in her daughters; neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy." According to Bartenura, this typifies Sodom means that such average behavior is dangerously close to that of Sodom because out of sheer habit he will begrudge all advantage to others, even when it does not entail any loss to his own person. This was the standard of Sodom where strangers were spurned even though Sodom was spacious and well provided.

Midrash Sh'muel regards the Mishnah's twofold evaluation as alternative, depending upon the intentions of the person in question. If his primary motive is not to draw on what belongs to others, in accordance with the verse (Prov. 15:27): "and he who hates gifts shall live," but in order to strengthen his resolve he adds: Mine is mine, then his attitude is defined as average. But if, driven by avarice, his primary motive is to begrudge others, and his statement yours is yours merely serves to cover mine is mine, then this corresponds to the character of Sodom.

227 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:41:08am

re: #215 calochortus

On an unrelated topic, the anchors on CNN were just reporting on repairs (or replacement perhaps) of a refrigeration unit on the space station and proceeded on to a bit of random chat about not understanding how you can cool something using propane. So cooling with electricity makes perfect sense but getting your energy for cooling from gas doesn't?

Facepalm.

Could we require just a little tiny bit of science education? Please?


Why do they need refrigeration in space? I thought it was cold in space. Couldn't they just put their leftovers outside to keep them cold?//

228 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:41:12am

re: #224 calochortus

Unlike that cold, cold electricity. But wait, lightbulbs get hot. My head, its exploding. /

Leela: Ow! Fire hot!
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: The professy will help.
[reaches into fire]
Professor Hubert Farnsworth: Ahh! Fire indeed hot!

229 Talking Point Detective  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:41:30am

re: #187 LudwigVanQuixote

I missed out on that. If I recall, shes been a bit political about her stances (which is to say, not wanting to piss of Republicans) What did she say?

Check out her blog - it's a pretty interesting dust up. Lots of technically oriented folks going at it big time.

Here's what she said that really has the deniers jumping up and down with joy:

It is obvious that there has been deletion of adverse data in figures shown IPCC AR3 and AR4, and the 1999 WMO document. Not only is this misleading, but it is dishonest (I agree with Muller on this one). The authors defend themselves by stating that there has been no attempt to hide the divergence problem in the literature, and that the relevant paper was referenced. I infer then that there is something in the IPCC process or the authors’ interpretation of the IPCC process (i.e. don’t dilute the message) that corrupted the scientists into deleting the adverse data in these diagrams....

[...]

I don’t want to throw the baby away with the bath water here. But this whole issue is a big problem for the science and has been an enormous black eye for the credibility of the IPCC and climate science. I suspect that many denizens will be on board with my assessment and are very familiar with McIntyre’s analysis. I would be particularly interested in hearing from any defenders of these global paleotemperature analyses by Mann et al.

She still, supposedly, falls under the category of "lukewarmist," but the gist of what she says is that the IPCC is not credible. She's been talking about Mann, Schmidt, et al. as being "tribalists" in the past - but she's gone considerably beyond that recently to pretty much buying into the whole conspiratorial mindset.

230 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:41:48am

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

But but propane burns and that is hot... How could that work?

NUMBSKULLS.

We have science "debates" in this nation because the average American would fail a legitimate 10th grade science test (and that is American 10th grade for the average American kid). I don't even like to think about how the Average American would fail 5th grade in any of the Western European countries, Russia, China or Israel.

Local radio guy asked random people on the street what "Eminent Domain" meant. The most popular answer was they were a rap group, followed up by some kind of Chinese thing.

231 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:42:03am

re: #227 rwdflynavy

Why do they need refrigeration in space? I thought it was cold in space. Couldn't they just put their leftovers outside to keep them cold?//

Don't get me started on stealth in space...
:P

232 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:42:12am

re: #224 calochortus

Unlike that cold, cold electricity. But wait, lightbulbs get hot. My head, its exploding. /

But you can't explain it! It must be proof of the creator! Like the tides!

Only amongst the truly ignorant is argument from ignorance as a logical fallacy, valid as proof.

233 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:42:48am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

But you can't explain it! It must be proof of the creator! Like the tides!

Only amongst the truly ignorant is argument from ignorance as a logical fallacy, valid as proof.

Just because I can't explain it means it must be magic.

234 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:43:01am

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

'Mine is yours and yours is yours' is a pious man; a good husband....

235 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:43:11am

re: #226 LudwigVanQuixote

Thank you.

BBL.

236 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:43:35am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

But you can't explain it! It must be proof of the creator! Like the tides!

Only amongst the truly ignorant is argument from ignorance as a logical fallacy, valid as proof.

Image: tumblr_lgg7qk3F5b1qz51fao1_500.jpg

237 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:43:53am

re: #229 Talking Point Detective

Check out her blog - it's a pretty interesting dust up. Lots of technically oriented folks going at it big time.

Here's what she said that really has the deniers jumping up and down with joy:

She still, supposedly, falls under the category of "lukewarmist," but the gist of what she says is that the IPCC is not credible. She's been talking about Mann, Schmidt, et al. as being "tribalists" in the past - but she's gone considerably beyond that recently to pretty much buying into the whole conspiratorial mindset.

head desk.

This is the point where with a little digging we find she gets money from big oil, just like Steve McIntyre and Richard Lindzen.

238 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:44:32am

re: #236 Varek Raith

Image: tumblr_lgg7qk3F5b1qz51fao1_500.jpg

///The better question is... what happens to that light when I close the fridge? I can't be the only one wondering about that can I?

239 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:45:49am

re: #232 LudwigVanQuixote

Which is why we shouldn't leave large areas of knowledge out of general education. Once it's only "experts" who have a basic understanding of things like science, the general populace has no way to judge who is correct.

240 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:46:19am

re: #238 jamesfirecat

///The better question is... what happens to that light when I close the fridge? I can't be the only one wondering about that can I?

I just chalk it up to the will of the Gods and go about my business.

241 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:46:55am

re: #233 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Just because I can't explain it means it must be magic.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.

Witches use magic.

Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live.

ergo, if I can't understand it, they must be destroyed.

/////

242 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:47:25am

re: #238 jamesfirecat

///The better question is... what happens to that light when I close the fridge? I can't be the only one wondering about that can I?

Why don't you go spend a half hour opening the fridge REALLY fast to see if you can figure it out.

Report back to us.

*grin*

243 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:47:28am

re: #239 calochortus

Which is why we shouldn't leave large areas of knowledge out of general education. Once it's only "experts" who have a basic understanding of things like science, the general populace has no way to judge who is correct.

Why do you hate business? Do you have any idea how many people would be unemployed if people could do things by themselves?

244 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:48:10am

re: #219 LudwigVanQuixote

It's painful.

One of the worst-offending categories is electric/alternative vehicles. I regularly see articles written by the "science guy" for major newspapers that:

- use measures of energy and power interchangeably
- fail to account for entire segments of the process of moving a car
- get estimates wrong by obvious scale factors

Sometimes they're combined. My favorite was a report according to which a car would be fitted with a solar panel "capable of generating 2 kW of energy".

Idiots.

245 Velvet Elvis  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:48:48am

This sis the same Bill Ketron who came to speak to my 10th grade Government class.

246 Brother Holy Cruise Missile of Mild Acceptance  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:49:25am
247 I Am Kreniigh!  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:49:46am

GOP plan to fix economy:

1. Prove Obama is not a natural-born American.
2. ...
3. Economy fixed!

248 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:49:52am

re: #244 iossarian

It's painful.

One of the worst-offending categories is electric/alternative vehicles. I regularly see articles written by the "science guy" for major newspapers that:

- use measures of energy and power interchangeably
- fail to account for entire segments of the process of moving a car
- get estimates wrong by obvious scale factors

Sometimes they're combined. My favorite was a report according to which a car would be fitted with a solar panel "capable of generating 2 kW of energy".

Idiots.

My car has a quantum singularity providing 2 exawatts of POWER!

249 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:50:15am

re: #243 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Why do you hate business? Do you have any idea how many people would be unemployed if people could do things by themselves?

Naturally, I hate business because I'm a liberal./

On the other hand, I hear an awful lot of business leaders whining about how they can't get employees who come out of school already trained to do whatever it is they need to have done. Why does the education system hate business?

250 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:50:39am

re: #239 calochortus

Which is why we shouldn't leave large areas of knowledge out of general education. Once it's only "experts" who have a basic understanding of things like science, the general populace has no way to judge who is correct.

It isn't even just that. It is basic, how do you go about thinking stuff that we fail at teaching.

For example, a common denier meme is that AGW breaks the first law of Thermodynamics.

They confuse it with the zeroeth law and claim that heat flows from hot to cold. So how can more heat from the sun come in from the cold of space to heat the Earth more?

I have actually seen people post this tripe.

No forget about thermodynamics for a second and ask yourself this:

Is it hotter in the shade or in the sunlight?

If what they were saying is correct, then the Sun could never warm anything at all - ever. Yet we know from everyday experience that it is hotter in the sunlight than in the shade.

So clearly the argument must be wrong.

What bothers me, is that people can't even think that much. They are that fucking stupid.

251 jamesfirecat  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:51:28am

re: #244 iossarian

It's painful.

One of the worst-offending categories is electric/alternative vehicles. I regularly see articles written by the "science guy" for major newspapers that:

- use measures of energy and power interchangeably
- fail to account for entire segments of the process of moving a car
- get estimates wrong by obvious scale factors

Sometimes they're combined. My favorite was a report according to which a car would be fitted with a solar panel "capable of generating 2 kW of energy".

Idiots.

///Fine then Mr. Fancy pants, you tell me where I can find the 1.21 Gigawatts I need to power my flux capacitor!

252 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:51:31am

re: #248 Varek Raith

My other car is the Heart of Gold

253 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:51:36am

re: #248 Varek Raith

My car has a quantum singularity providing 2 exawatts of POWER!

You have a car? My personal space-ready helipod has solar panels capable of powering the vehicle, charging the laser cannons, and heating my hot chocolate and cookies all at the same time.

254 b_sharp  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:51:36am

I'm trying to fix computers at a school and keep up with you people and it ain't working.

I'll be back here when I get back to the city.

255 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:52:22am

re: #253 EmmmieG

You have a car? My personal space-ready helipod has solar panels capable of powering the vehicle, charging the laser cannons, and heating my hot chocolate and cookies all at the same time.

If by "car" you mean 3 kilometer long battleship of doom, than yes.
I have a car.

256 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:52:29am

re: #244 iossarian

It's painful.

One of the worst-offending categories is electric/alternative vehicles. I regularly see articles written by the "science guy" for major newspapers that:

- use measures of energy and power interchangeably
- fail to account for entire segments of the process of moving a car
- get estimates wrong by obvious scale factors

Sometimes they're combined. My favorite was a report according to which a car would be fitted with a solar panel "capable of generating 2 kW of energy".

Idiots.

Ohhh yeah, a favorite tact I have with blowhards in person is to ask them to define a Volt an Amp and a Watt.

Then I plow into how they have no right to comment on anything because they are like someone claiming to be a surgeon who doesn't know what blood is.

257 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:52:39am

re: #249 calochortus

Naturally, I hate business because I'm a liberal./

On the other hand, I hear an awful lot of business leaders whining about how they can't get employees who come out of school already trained to do whatever it is they need to have done. Why does the education system hate business?

Eh, all my basic computer skills I learned hands on while in the USMC. Degrees come schools. Education comes from study and experience.

258 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:54:04am

re: #250 LudwigVanQuixote

Umm, yeah. I'd be for teaching critical thought and logic in schools.

I've long been a fan of the "Question Authority" concept. Questioning isn't rejecting something out of hand. A concept lost on many people.

259 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:54:08am

re: #255 Varek Raith

If by "car" you mean 3 kilometer long battleship of doom, than yes.
I have a car.

Oh, a compact.

260 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:54:21am

re: #246 Dreggas

Texas now has white male only scholarships

*facepalm*

You get this a lot in higher ed from middle class whites who vote GOP despite the fact that the Republicans are in the business of crapping on them, specifically in this case by cutting state funding for universities.

It's more sad than irritating really.

261 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:55:40am

re: #258 calochortus

Umm, yeah. I'd be for teaching critical thought and logic in schools.

I've long been a fan of the "Question Authority" concept. Questioning isn't rejecting something out of hand. A concept lost on many people.

That's right. Finding the right question is frequently harder and more important than finding the answer - ad it takes some mental discipline and knowledge base to do.

262 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:57:22am

re: #258 calochortus

Umm, yeah. I'd be for teaching critical thought and logic in schools.

I've long been a fan of the "Question Authority" concept. Questioning isn't rejecting something out of hand. A concept lost on many people.

A hard part is learning that "question authority" is not the same as "oppose authority" -- for neither the questioners nor the authority.

263 Kronocide  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:57:47am

A summary of the Curry Dustup from Skeptical Science.

She may be a scientist, but she's not acting like one.

264 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 11:58:29am

And the answer to how heat gets from the Sun to the Earth is pretty simply. Light is a form of energy. So is heat. When light from the sun hits stuff, it can cause the stuff's atoms and molecules to wiggle and jiggle (i.e. gain heat).


So yes heat flows from hot to cold... when you are talking about substances in thermal contact. Light on the other hand is perectly happy to cross a vacuum.

265 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:01:54pm

re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote

And the answer to how heat gets from the Sun to the Earth is pretty simply. Light is a form of energy. So is heat. When light from the sun hits stuff, it can cause the stuff's atoms and molecules to wiggle and jiggle (i.e. gain heat).

So yes heat flows from hot to cold... when you are talking about substances in thermal contact. Light on the other hand is perectly happy to cross a vacuum.

Light's a sneaky bastard.
:)

266 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:02:44pm

re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote

And the answer to how heat gets from the Sun to the Earth is pretty simply. Light is a form of energy. So is heat. When light from the sun hits stuff, it can cause the stuff's atoms and molecules to wiggle and jiggle (i.e. gain heat).


So yes heat flows from hot to cold... when you are talking about substances in thermal contact. Light on the other hand is perectly happy to cross a vacuum.

So it's like Jello?//

267 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:03:04pm

re: #222 wlewisiii

Ludwig, are there any of the commentaries in English that go into this? I'd find it very helpful (on any of a number of levels) to have something like that when I'm studying my JPS Tanakh.

The Midrash Says. (and you can buy it at the Zionist Mall)

268 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:03:27pm
269 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:05:01pm

re: #266 rwdflynavy

More like dancers in a P Diddy* video I think.

* Displays criminal un-hipness.

270 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:05:13pm

re: #267 Alouette

The Midrash Says. (and you can buy it at the Zionist Mall)

The Midrash Says is an excellent resource.

271 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:07:36pm

re: #268 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

U.S dispatches aircraft carrier to waters near Libya

US Navy, A Global Force for Good...or so say the ads...

272 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:08:37pm

re: #268 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

And how long before Khadafi dares the US to cross the Line of Death (Gulf of Sidra) which Khadafi has claimed as Libyan territorial waters.

I expect the US to keep its ships in int'l waters, and be available if the need arises - once Khadafi is sacked and if requested for humanitarian aid. I don't think the US will send in troops before then for obvious reasons (why give ammo to Khadafi that this is a plot to remove him when he's doing a fantastic job all by himself of providing evidence he has no business being in charge and his countrymen agree).

273 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:11:13pm

Lawrence O’Donnell Tears Glenn Beck’s Apology To The Jewish Community Apart

O’Donnell employed a tactic long familiar to the MSNBC 8 PM hour– attack an opponent for apologizing about something you called for him to apologize for– but took it a step further by going line by line in Beck’s apology. He began with Beck’s decision to not “rehash” his statements while he was apologizing, which O’Donnell found distasteful: “By ‘I’m not going to rehash it,’ what he means, of course, is ‘I’m not going to ever say the awful thing that I’m apologizing for, so you’re going to hear me use the word apologize but I’m not going to have to repeat that awful thing that I said,” which is more of a tautological statement than a damning slam.

O’Donnell picks up speed, however, when Beck claims that, given he is on air for four hours a day, his airtime is a “recipe for disaster” that guarantees he will be wrong at least sometimes. “What you never want to do,” O’Donnell warns, “is make excuses for yourself.” He then goes on to attack Beck for being on the air four hours a day to begin with. “You really don’t want to be telling the American people that working four hours a day is too hard for you,” O’Donnell quipped, suggesting that Beck is only at work when he is on the air (in which case, O’Donnell works a grand total of one hour a day). He goes through a short but potent list of people who work more than four hours a day– airline pilots who aren’t allowed a single mistake in the air and the union workers in Wisconsin who, he assumes, work for eight.

274 researchok  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:11:46pm

re: #264 LudwigVanQuixote

And the answer to how heat gets from the Sun to the Earth is pretty simply. Light is a form of energy. So is heat. When light from the sun hits stuff, it can cause the stuff's atoms and molecules to wiggle and jiggle (i.e. gain heat).

So yes heat flows from hot to cold... when you are talking about substances in thermal contact. Light on the other hand is perectly happy to cross a vacuum.

You know, people might the idea you know what you are talking about.

//

275 Summer Seale  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:13:08pm

I think that we should propose a bill in Congress which states that any extraterrestrial takeover of the United States by force of ray guns should be deemed illegal by law!

It's time to stop terrible moments like Independence Day from happening! These little grey men should learn what we think of them and their destructive potential right now before it's too late!

276 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:13:56pm

re: #274 researchok

You know, people might the idea you know what you are talking about.

//

Shh.... I'm just a test tube cleaner...

////

What is sad is, every test tube cleaner I ever met knew better than these loons as well.

277 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:14:49pm

re: #275 Summer

I think that we should propose a bill in Congress which states that any extraterrestrial takeover of the United States by force of ray guns should be deemed illegal by law!

It's time to stop terrible moments like Independence Day from happening! These little grey men should learn what we think of them and their destructive potential right now before it's too late!

Oh, sure.
Blame the egomaniac with the death ray.
Jerks.
///

278 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:15:28pm

re: #275 Summer

I think that we should propose a bill in Congress which states that any extraterrestrial takeover of the United States by force of ray guns should be deemed illegal by law!

It's time to stop terrible moments like Independence Day from happening! These little grey men should learn what we think of them and their destructive potential right now before it's too late!

That is in the queue after making pi officially 3 and declaring that no woman above the age of puberty can be left out of the house without a microchip implanted in her vagina to tell if she has had illicit intercourse.

279 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:16:52pm

re: #278 LudwigVanQuixote

That is in the queue after making pi officially 3 and declaring that no woman above the age of puberty can be left out of the house without a microchip implanted in her vagina to tell if she has had illicit intercourse.

Oh, why stop there? You've got to keep a firm eye on us while we're at home too.

280 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:17:08pm

re: #271 rwdflynavy

US Navy, A Global Force for Good...or so say the ads...

Join the Navy! Go to strange exotic place! Meet strange exotic people and kill them!

Actually, I love the Navy. The only way for a physicist to fight is in air conditioning.

281 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:17:25pm

re: #279 calochortus

Oh, why stop there? You've got to keep a firm eye on us while we're at home too.

shudder...

282 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:17:33pm

re: #278 LudwigVanQuixote

That is in the queue after making pi officially 3 and declaring that no woman above the age of puberty can be left out of the house without a microchip implanted in her vagina to tell if she has had illicit intercourse.

So saddlebacking is still good to go then?

283 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:18:13pm

re: #282 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So saddlebacking is still good to go then?

Took me a moment to realize what you meant by that...

284 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:19:48pm

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

Join the Navy! Go to strange exotic place! Meet strange exotic people and kill them!

Actually, I love the Navy. The only way for a physicist to fight is in air conditioning.

We joined the Navy to see the world
And what did we see?
We saw the sea
We saw the Pacific and the Atlantic
But the Atlantic isn't romantic
And the Pacific isn't what it's cracked up to be

285 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:19:56pm

re: #280 LudwigVanQuixote

Join the Navy! Go to strange exotic place! Meet strange exotic people and kill them!

Actually, I love the Navy. The only way for a physicist to fight is in air conditioning.

My dad was a WW2 Pacific Navy vet. Actually he said that the reason he joined the Navy was so that he would be sure to get a shower every day.

286 Vicious Michigan Union Thug  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:20:29pm

re: #284 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We joined the Navy to see the world
And what did we see?
We saw the sea
We saw the Pacific and the Atlantic
But the Atlantic isn't romantic
And the Pacific isn't what it's cracked up to be

My dad used to sing that. :)

287 calochortus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:21:04pm

BBL

288 moderatelyradicalliberal  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:21:39pm

I see the American Taliban is at it again.

289 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:21:59pm

"'Join the army,' they said!
'See the world,' they said!
I'd rather be sailing."

290 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:23:25pm

re: #248 Varek Raith

My car has a quantum singularity providing 2 exawatts of POWER!

Interesting... for how many pico seconds?

291 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:24:14pm

re: #282 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

So saddlebacking is still good to go then?

Sure, how else can they excuse themselves for renting rent boys ?

292 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:25:22pm

re: #290 LudwigVanQuixote

Interesting... for how many pico seconds?

Eleventy+1.

293 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:25:31pm

re: #266 rwdflynavy

So it's like Jello?//

Much can be learned from the study of jello... It is the only only substance that there is always room for.

294 iossarian  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:26:26pm

re: #291 LudwigVanQuixote

Sure, how else can they excuse themselves for renting rent boys ?

To be fair, what do you expect them to do? Buy rent boys? Lease rent boys? Part-exchange rent boys?

They're called rent boys for a reason.

295 Achilles Tang  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:26:35pm

I see the starving desperate Somalis are at it again.

Pirates trying to feed their children kidnap more children//

296 Mad Prophet Ludwig  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:28:09pm

re: #292 Varek Raith

Eleventy+1.

So you get about a mega joule pulse out of it.... Not too shabby :)

297 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:28:58pm

re: #285 Alouette

My dad was a WW2 Pacific Navy vet. Actually he said that the reason he joined the Navy was so that he would be sure to get a shower every day.

I met an Air Force E9 who used to say with a straight face that he joined the Air Force during Vietnam to avoid military service.

298 Political Atheist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:31:05pm

Sometimes it's okay to point and laugh, especially when it's the LA Clippers
LA Clippers-Black History Month FAIL

299 William Barnett-Lewis  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:32:50pm

re: #297 rwdflynavy

I met an Air Force E9 who used to say with a straight face that he joined the Air Force during Vietnam to avoid military service.

Meh, I can see that.

OTOH, I joined the Army in 1982 because I figured Ronnie was going to cause WWIII & I would have rather died quickly, while fighting, than slowly while the fallout killed the world. As I sit here watching my son, adopted from Vietnam, build with his Legos, I can honestly say there are a few things that I'm glad to have been wrong about.

300 Romantic Heretic  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:33:07pm

re: #282 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

I guess that means lubricants will be made illegal next.

301 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:33:39pm

re: #293 LudwigVanQuixote

Much can be learned from the study of jello... It is the only only substance that there is always room for.

I used to work with a submariner who taught at the Navy's Nuclear Power School. He once gave a problem to his students that required some spectacular math to figure out how much jello could be placed in a certain strangely shaped container. When the students provided their answers he told them they were all wrong because there is always room for jello.

302 palomino  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:40:55pm

re: #246 Dreggas

Texas now has white male only scholarships

*facepalm*

A complete joke. But men in general are on their way to needing some assistance. Remember back in the 1970's when affirmative action for women was a hot topic? No more. Women make up 60% of today's college grads, and are now the majority in most professional graduate schools. The kicker: women under 30 now make more than their male counterparts in the 150 largest American cities (which is where most Americans live).

303 TedStriker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:41:29pm

As a Tennessean, I say this to Ketron: Fuck you, your confederates in this crap, and the horses you rode in on...

304 TedStriker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:44:09pm

re: #301 rwdflynavy

I used to work with a submariner who taught at the Navy's Nuclear Power School. He once gave a problem to his students that required some spectacular math to figure out how much jello could be placed in a certain strangely shaped container. When the students provided their answers he told them they were all wrong because there is always room for jello.

There is always room for Jello....mmmmm.

305 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:46:31pm

huh. The AFL-CIO blog is reporting that the Wisconsin Capitol Police are welding shut the windows. [link]

306 Kragar  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:46:31pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

I guess that means lubricants will be made illegal next.

Necessity is the mother of invention.

307 garhighway  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:48:15pm

re: #300 Romantic Heretic

I guess that means lubricants will be made illegal next.

Which would make Santorum illegal.

308 TedStriker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:49:26pm

re: #305 kirkspencer

huh. The AFL-CIO blog is reporting that the Wisconsin Capitol Police are welding shut the windows. [link]

If this is true, I hope the state fire marshal slams them for creating a unsafe condition by reducing the means of exit from the building.

309 lostlakehiker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:49:48pm

re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote

Head Desk.

Here is a great piece on her and here is something that I should turn into a page:

[Link: climateprogress.org...]

Have you seen the commercials in which a very white woman dressed in very black explains why nowadays, more drilling can be accomplished with fewer derricks? And at the end, to her voice-over of how that means "less impact", a girl runs across a green field with a huge bubble blowing out behind her?

The clear intention is to imprint in the mind of the viewer the notion that the air will be just that clean and innocent and green, because of the "reduced impact". Nothing has been said explicitly, but everything has been said between the lines, and between the lines, it's not a lie, it's not a damned lie, it's a f*** lie.

If fairies waved their wands and caused the oil to appear in tankers at U.S. refineries, the climate impact would be about the same. It's not the drilling for the oil that's the main problem. It's where to put the resulting CO2.

310 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:50:01pm

re: #305 kirkspencer

huh. The AFL-CIO blog is reporting that the Wisconsin Capitol Police are welding shut the windows. [link]

Wait...
What?

311 blueraven  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 12:50:53pm

re: #305 kirkspencer

huh. The AFL-CIO blog is reporting that the Wisconsin Capitol Police are welding shut the windows. [link]

I heard a couple of the Republican state senators are potentially open to siding with the Democrats, which would give them a majority to vote down this bill. Evidently their constituents are not happy about the bill and Walker's tactics.

312 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:02:53pm

re: #227 rwdflynavy

Why do they need refrigeration in space? I thought it was cold in space. Couldn't they just put their leftovers outside to keep them cold?//

I'm now imagining a space shuttle with milk out on the ledge.

313 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:09:14pm

re: #311 blueraven

I heard a couple of the Republican state senators are potentially open to siding with the Democrats, which would give them a majority to vote down this bill. Evidently their constituents are not happy about the bill and Walker's tactics.

They need three. So far only one seems certain.

314 Varek Raith  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:12:09pm

Just played the Dragon Age 2 demo.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Bioware?
:/

315 Nevertires  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:13:53pm

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm now imagining a space shuttle with milk out on the ledge.

And now I am picturing the English comedy series Red Dwarf.

316 Four More Tears  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:15:41pm

re: #314 Varek Raith

Just played the Dragon Age 2 demo.
What.
The.
Fuck.
Bioware?
:/

I downloaded it but haven't touched it yet. That bad?

317 lawhawk  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:17:14pm

Meanwhile, over in Libya, Khadafi says that his people love him.... while photos accompanying that article show the opposition arming themselves to the teeth to stop Khadafi's hired goons and loyalists from rolling back the gains they've made since the protests against Khadafi began.

Embattled Libyan leader Moammar Gadhafi on Monday insisted he is not stepping down, proclaiming in a media interview: "My people love me. They would die for me."

Even as his forces clamped down in its stronghold in the capital Tripoli, Gadhafi refused to acknowledge that anti-government protests have taken place there. Elsewhere, government tanks, armored vehicles and Jeeps mounted with anti-aircraft guns positioned Monday just outside the rebel-held city of Zawiya, where residents expected an assault from Gadhafi loyalists.

Then again, Libyans would love Khadafi... if he just left.

318 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:18:09pm

re: #317 lawhawk

Meanwhile, over in Libya, Khadafi says that his people love him... while photos accompanying that article show the opposition arming themselves to the teeth to stop Khadafi's hired goons and loyalists from rolling back the gains they've made since the protests against Khadafi began.

Then again, Libyans would love Khadafi... if he just left.

If by love you mean "Not hang from a convenient lamppost," yes.

319 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:18:39pm

re: #284 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

We joined the Navy to see the world
And what did we see?
We saw the sea
We saw the Pacific and the Atlantic
But the Atlantic isn't romantic
And the Pacific isn't what it's cracked up to be

We joined the Navy to do or die
But we didn't do and we didn't die
We were much too busy looking at the ocean and the sky
And what did we see?
We saw the sea
We saw the Atlantic and the Pacific
But the Pacific isn't terrific
And the Atlantic isn't what it's cracked up to be

They tell us that the Admiral
Is as nice as he can be
But we never see the Admiral
Because the Admiral has never been to sea

320 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:21:55pm

re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist

We joined the Navy to do or die
But we didn't do and we didn't die
We were much too busy looking at the ocean and the sky
And what did we see?
We saw the sea
We saw the Atlantic and the Pacific
But the Pacific isn't terrific
And the Atlantic isn't what it's cracked up to be

They tell us that the Admiral
Is as nice as he can be
But we never see the Admiral
Because the Admiral has never been to sea

I never understood the lure of the beach. I can understand fishing, scuba diving, sailing, boating, swimming, etc. But sitting on a beach staring at the ocean isn't my idea of quality time.

321 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:23:46pm

re: #98 Simply Sarah

Assuming the linked bill is the same version of the text the article is about, I think the article overstates what would actually be criminalized. The part of it describing what is covered seemed pretty limited to what would be considered by most reasonable to be terrorist activities.

Of course, just because the bill limits what would actually be covered doesn't mean it can't/won't/isn't intended to be used in a much broader manner of harassment and intimidation. That is what the real goal is, most likely.

Just coming back long enough to address this.

The article isn't overstating anything. The part you mentioned in your #46 where you said that you weren't sure exactly what it entails is key, namely:

Any rule,precept, instruction, or edict arising directly from the extant rulings of any of the authoritative schools of Islamic jurisprudence of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali, Ja’afariya, or Salafi, as those terms are used by sharia adherents, is prima facie sharia without any further evidentiary showing;

Any rule,precept, instruction, or edict arising directly from the extant rulings of any of the authoritative schools of Islamic jurisprudence of Hanafi, Maliki, Shafi’i, Hanbali, Ja’afariya, or Salafi, as those terms are used by sharia adherents, is prima facie sharia without any further evidentiary showing;

The vast majority of Muslims follow one of the 4 classical schools of (Sunni) Islamic jurisprudence. The 5th one (Ja'fari) is Shia, and I think everyone probably has an idea what the Salafi thing is (i.e. not mainstream).

These 4 schools cover everything from inheritance laws, marriage laws, how to pray, make ritual ablutions, fast, perform the Hajj, give alms (zakat), etc. (including the more controversial criminal stuff). The reason they cover these things (in great detail) is because the Qur'an only provides a general outline for many things, with the details being provided by the Hadith (sayings) and Sunnah (habits/practices) of Muhammad (s.a.w.s.) This whole package is what constitutes Sharia—e.g. Sharia isn't only about criminal law as it covers ALL aspects of Muslim life.

So to summarize, criminalizing the following of the schools of jurisprudence would in essence criminalize the entire practice of Islam, in much the same manner that criminalizing Halacha would basically outlaw the practice of Judaism.

As for the scary bits (like the cutting off of hands & such), Muslims living in non-Muslim lands are required to obey the laws of of the country in which they live, provided that the laws don't require them to commit any sins (e.g. if there was a law that mandated that everyone eat pork and drink alcohol, then a Muslim would have a moral obligation to refuse to follow that law). Ironically, this means that the Sharia detailed in the 4 schools that orders American Muslims to respect American laws is the very same Sharia these people seek to criminalize.

I hope that clarifies the issue for you a little.

Gotta run. I'll check back later if you have any more questions.

322 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:25:05pm

Cripes. My connection turned to molasses. Clear the cache and reboot Firefox.

323 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:25:47pm

OK! We're at the beach! There's the ocean! Nice waves. OK, let's go.

324 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:26:31pm

Lag time in posting is about 3-4 seconds. Something's funky or my ISP is acting up.

325 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:26:49pm

Testing. No. Wait, seems OK now.

326 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:27:10pm

re: #321 CuriousLurker

As for the scary bits (like the cutting off of hands & such), Muslims living in non-Muslim lands are required to obey the laws of of the country in which they live, provided that the laws don't require them to commit any sins (e.g. if there was a law that mandated that everyone eat pork and drink alcohol, then a Muslim would have a moral obligation to refuse to follow that law). Ironically, this means that the Sharia detailed in the 4 schools that orders American Muslims to respect American laws is the very same Sharia these people seek to criminalize.

The principal that you follow the law of the country in which you live is also enshrined in halacha. Dina d'malchut dina--the law of the land is the law.

Can you give me sources for its authority in Islam? This is a crucial issue, and I'd like to be better armed for discussion.

327 Decatur Deb  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:27:38pm

re: #324 Gus 802

Lag time in posting is about 3-4 seconds. Something's funky or my ISP is acting up.

I told you to lay off those nice boys at Anonymous.

328 Fart Knocker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:28:11pm

re: #312 SanFranciscoZionist

I'm now imagining a space shuttle with milk out on the ledge.

Don't be silly, milk would freeze. You should put ice cream out on the ledge.//

329 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:29:35pm

re: #327 Decatur Deb

I told you to lay off those nice boys at Anonymous.

I'm ruined! I also just called the Rolling Stone psy-ops story a conspiracy theory! There goes some of my Twitter following.

//

330 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:30:06pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

The principal that you follow the law of the country in which you live is also enshrined in halacha. Dina d'malchut dina--the law of the land is the law.

Can you give me sources for its authority in Islam? This is a crucial issue, and I'd like to be better armed for discussion.

I'm not at all surprised halacha has the same thing. Sure I'll get sources for you, but I'll have to do it later n the evening.

331 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:31:54pm

re: #330 CuriousLurker

I'm not at all surprised halacha has the same thing. Sure I'll get sources for you, but I'll have to do it later n the evening.

Thanks!

332 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:36:13pm

re: #305 kirkspencer

huh. The AFL-CIO blog is reporting that the Wisconsin Capitol Police are welding shut the windows. [link]

Update: They aren't welding the windows shut. They're driving bolts partway into the wood frame and then shearing the heads from the bolts. Same effect.

333 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:38:41pm

re: #332 kirkspencer

Update: They aren't welding the windows shut. They're driving bolts partway into the wood frame and then shearing the heads from the bolts. Same effect.

Sounds like a life-safety violation.

334 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:39:55pm

re: #333 Gus 802

Sounds like a life-safety violation.

I agree. Eventually someone will have to fall on their sword over this item. The minimum questions are who and when.

335 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:41:16pm

re: #334 kirkspencer

I agree. Eventually someone will have to fall on their sword over this item. The minimum questions are who and when.

Best thing to do with this is contact either the building department or the fire department. Bolting those windows shut has to be a code violation.

336 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:42:00pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

The principal that you follow the law of the country in which you live is also enshrined in halacha. Dina d'malchut dina--the law of the land is the law.

Can you give me sources for its authority in Islam? This is a crucial issue, and I'd like to be better armed for discussion.

That's interesting. The LDS twelfth article of faith is:

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.

That said, I can't see a law mandating pork rinds and beer any time soon.

337 kirkspencer  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:46:42pm

re: #335 Gus 802

Best thing to do with this is contact either the building department or the fire department. Bolting those windows shut has to be a code violation.

Yeah, problem. Source: [Link: twitter.com...] for pictures of the bolting, and the new news (unconfirmed) that the fire marshal for the building is part of the capitol police. I'd guess the building department is also subject to the same thing.

338 SanFranciscoZionist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:50:53pm

re: #332 kirkspencer

Update: They aren't welding the windows shut. They're driving bolts partway into the wood frame and then shearing the heads from the bolts. Same effect.

Yeah. Someone's gonna get a visit from the OSHA inspector. You can't do that.

339 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:51:01pm

re: #321 CuriousLurker

OK, I figured as much, but didn't really have time to research. That's a part that's a bit less clear. In fact, I had originally written out one of my original posts basically stating that it seemed to either be doing nothing beyond saying stuff that is already illegal is, uh, illegal, but in a special Muslim way, or that it was so overbroad that it effectively would ban Islam. In the end, I backed away from that, due, in part, to not being entirely sure if those schools of thought were as all-encompassing as I suspected they might and rushing a bit and not fully appreciating the last bit of text, which was a mistake on my part.

With that in mind, the result of the language of the proposed statute becomes more murky. The first part I quoted, along with the preceding parts, would seem to imply a rather narrow range of proscribed actions/items. Looking at it again, more closely, though, the plain language of the last part is such that it would, indeed, start from the assumption that anything related to those schools would be sharia and therefore banned unless proven otherwise.

Given that reading, this law would likely be found unconstitutional on its face, regardless of the rambling nonsense of the first few pages claiming how it is both needed and limited, since it would basically be saying that following or acting upon the traditions and teachings any of those schools would be assumed illegal. As someone said before, imagine if someone tried proposing a law that said any acts following a Christian tradition would be assuming illegal unless shown otherwise. Quite simply, no remotely sane judge would stand for that.

The purpose of other language there is simply not clear to me. It could be read as limiting the scope of what is sharia for the point of the law or it could be seen as just musings and justification for the banning. It's really a pretty horribly worded statute, since it comes off as contradictory and vague even from an initial reading. Then again, I suppose I shouldn't expect a well-written law when it only comes from baseless bigotry.

340 Simply Sarah  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 1:55:06pm

To sum things up, I can't tell if the bill is written in the way it is because of ignorance or in an attempt to put a microscopic facade of legitimacy on a laughably ridiculous piece of legislation that is dripping with a level of anti-Muslin hatred that I can't even begin to fathom. Two great choices. Feel free to mix and match!

341 Bob Levin  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:05:14pm

re: #267 Alouette

I was thinking about the Midrash Says. The information is good, but....if you are not Jewish, you'll have to grit your teeth to get through some parts of it. Frequently we would have Shabbos guests who were not Jewish, and I had to do a quick skim of its account of the weekly Torah portion, to make sure that it didn't have that...I'll call it 'ghetto' slant.

What is this slant? It's this attempt to sequester Jews from the rest of society. How do they do this? By trying to scare us away from non-Jews. This is a big part of the educational blinders that we have to overcome to reach what the Torah is about.

342 Bob Levin  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:08:12pm

re: #286 Alouette

Follow the Fleet--Fred Astaire, Ginger Rodgers, Randolph Scott, Lucille Ball, the future Harriet Nelson....

343 Bob Levin  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:13:26pm

re: #321 CuriousLurker

Oh yeah, this is definitely a Nuremberg type of law. Next election, a bunch of these folks will be gone. Not all, never all. They've been a constant on the American political scene for many years. Some years, they meet under rocks. Other years, they hold office.

344 WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.]  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:17:30pm

re: #2 Obdicut

It's suddenly just so perfectly fine for GOP people to pal around with absolute, blatant racists. Or be them.

Racism in the US in 2011: Much bigger than I thought it'd be.

yeah, agreed :P

345 Gus  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:41:55pm

OK Update on "the windows" in Madison, WI. Saw this come across Twitter.

MFD Checking Modifications to Capitol Windows

The City of Madison Fire Department has received numerous calls, emails, and Facebook posts regarding rumors of windows at the Capitol being modified to reduce access.

The Department has no jurisdiction over occupancy at the Capitol because the Wisconsin State Legislature exempted the building some years ago.

The activities at the Capitol are been overseen by the Capitol Police, which is responsible for the protection of lives and property on Department of Administration (DOA) - managed properties.

The Fire Department is offering Capitol Police technical assistance on code questions.

In consultation with the Capitol Police, the Department has been advised that work on bathroom windows is being done to repair and/or replace pins that were previously in place on windows that are accessible to the public. No modifications are being made to windows in the office areas of Capitol staff.

Department personnel have been at the Capitol every day and were dispatched to check on rumors that the windows were being sealed and found no evidence that that was the case.

346 The Optimist  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 2:48:02pm

Chavez has not quite copied Qadaffi costume.
Check out these two images.

Hugo in Uniform

Moammud in uniform

347 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:08:11pm

re: #336 EmmmieG

That's interesting. The LDS twelfth article of faith is:

12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, in obeying, honoring and sustaining the law.

That said, I can't see a law mandating pork rinds and beer any time soon.

Which is precisely why the whole thing is so flipping ridiculous.

348 CuriousLurker  Mon, Feb 28, 2011 4:40:31pm

re: #326 SanFranciscoZionist

Okay, here goes.

Let me start off by saying that contrary to popular opinion (in some circles), to break a promise or breach a trust is absolutely unlawful in Islam and considered a sign of being a hypocrite (munafiq). This is something extremely negative as it is emphasized numerous times throughout the Qur'an & hadith in very strong language.

Below is the main hadith on which the order for Muslims to obey the law of the land is based, followed by relevant verses from the Qur'an and additional ahadith (ahadith = plural form of hadith).

No distinction is made between Islamic & non-Islamic lands as it applies to both Islamic (Muslim majority/ruled) countries and secular, non-Islamic countries in which Muslims enjoy peace, security, and the freedom to practice their faith, like the U.S.

Note: Where the Qur'an is concerned, I've bolded the relevant parts as only certain portions of the verses directly apply to this particular rule.

Main hadith:

Narrated Ibn 'Umar: The Prophet said, "It is obligatory for one to listen to and obey (the ruler's orders) unless these orders involve one [sic] disobedience (to Allah); but if an act of disobedience (to Allah) is imposed, he should not listen to or obey it."
—Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 203

The Qur'an (Yusuf Ali translation) states:

Come not nigh to the orphan's property except to improve it, until he attains the age of full strength; and fulfil (every) engagement, for (every) engagement will be enquired into (on the Day of Reckoning). {17:34}

God doth command you to render back your Trusts to those to whom they are due; And when ye judge between man and man, that ye judge with justice
: Verily how excellent is the teaching which He giveth you! For God is He Who heareth and seeth all things. {4:58}

Regarding anyone who breaks an agreement and is therefore guilty of treachery:

If thou fearest treachery from any group, throw back (their covenant) to them, (so as to be) on equal terms: for God loveth not the treacherous. {8:58}

Additional ahadith:

Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "The signs of a hypocrite are three:
(1) whenever he speaks, he tells a lie,
(2) whenever he is entrusted, he proves to be dishonest,
(3) whenever he promises, he breaks his promise."
—Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 48, Number 847

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr: The Prophet said, "Whoever has (the following) four characters [sic] will be a hypocrite, and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy until he gives it up. These are:
(1) Whenever he talks, he tells a lie;
(2) whenever he makes a promise, he breaks it;
(3) whenever he makes a covenant he proves treacherous;
(4) and whenever he quarrels, he behaves impudently in an evil insulting manner." (See Hadith No. 33 Vol. 1)
—Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 43, Number 639

There's a lot more in terms of details & stories, but the above should be sufficient sources/proof for anyone who is of a mind to accept such. As for the others, I'm fairly certain no amount of documentation will convince them.


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