1 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:01:40pm |
The Actual Genuine Tea Partiers of 1773 were exceptionally clear on what they wanted.
3 | Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:04:38pm |
5 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:06:40pm |
re: #2 SanFranciscoZionist
Coulter is almost surreal.
Why don't you try thinking of her as a performance art piece, instead? Geller, too.
6 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:07:04pm |
A laughable gang of disorganized and confused NAZIS
8 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:09:27pm |
Meh, everyone is acting out their assigned roles--and I've heard the Fox team do theirs before.
9 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:10:34pm |
If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street
10 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:11:23pm |
re: #5 EmmmieG
Why don't you try thinking of her as a performance art piece, instead? Geller, too.
I think what shows Coulter up in this piece to me as performance art--or a total liar--is the languor of the way she compares the protestors to the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and the Nazis.
If I thought all those people were headed my way, I would be a little agitated. She's smug. This is not a normal response to fascism.
11 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:12:11pm |
re: #10 SanFranciscoZionist
I think what shows Coulter up in this piece to me as performance art--or a total liar--is the languor of the way she compares the protestors to the French Revolution, the Russian Revolution, and the Nazis.
If I thought all those people were headed my way, I would be a little agitated. She's smug. This is not a normal response to fascism.
Coulter has found a lucrative niche. It buys her Blahniks for her.
12 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:14:19pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street
Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...
Email: 'Time to kill the wealthy'
Several influential New York state lawmakers have received threatening mails saying it is “time to kill the wealthy” if they don’t renew the state’s tax surcharge on millionaires, according to reports.
“It’s time to tax the millionaires!” reads the email, according to WTEN in Albany. “If you don’t, I’m going to pay a visit with my carbine to one of those tech companies you are so proud of and shoot every spoiled Ivy League [expletive] I can find.”
State Assembly Speaker Sheldon Silver and State Senate Majority Leader Dean Skelos reportedly received the email, as did State Assembly Majority Leader Ron Canestrari. The governor’s office did not tell the New York Daily News whether the governor received the email.
The email, with the threatening subject line of, “time to kill the wealthy,” was detailed and disturbing.
“How hard is it for us to stake out one of the obvious access roads to some tech company, tail an employee home and toss a liquor bottle full of flaming gasoline through their nice picture window into their cute house,” wrote the author of the email.
13 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:16:04pm |
re: #12 NJDhockeyfan
Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...
They would be more likely to get a hard-working engineer.
Full disclosure: Married to a hard-working high tech engineer.
14 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:16:48pm |
re: #12 NJDhockeyfan
Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...
Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.
Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.
15 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:18:35pm |
re: #12 NJDhockeyfan
Instead they are sending threatening emails to lawmakers...
They're oppressing me with their math and science!
Help, help, he pulled a slide rule on me!
(Okay, out of date. It was a $200 TI calculator.)
16 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:22:43pm |
Sarah Palin Says No
Former Part-Time Governor Was Coached In Pronunciation Of Difficult Two Letter Word
17 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:23:59pm |
re: #16 engineer dog
Sarah Palin Says No
Former Part-Time Governor Was Coached In Pronunciation Of Difficult Two Letter Word
KABOOM
18 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:24:01pm |
“time to kill the wealthy”
the tea party would never propose anything so unacceptable as this! they only threatened to kill liberals
19 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:24:14pm |
re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.
Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.
Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?
20 | jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:26:20pm |
21 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:26:20pm |
re: #19 NJDhockeyfan
Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?
And where exactly did I say any of that? I think your comment shows that assholes will talk shit for a variety of reasons on both sides of the aisle.
22 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:29:07pm |
re: #19 NJDhockeyfan
Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?
No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.
Violent nutters, whatever their political bent, don't necessarily tell you much about the mainstream of either movement, though it is worth noting that in general, right-wing rhetoric of the past 10 years has been much more violent than left-wing rhetoric.
23 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:30:33pm |
Woman faces charges in threatening emails to lawmakers
MADISON (WKOW) -- Authorities say 26-year-old Katherine Windels sent disturbing emails to 16 Republican senators, repeatedly threatening to kill them.
Threatening E-Mail Sent to Wisconsin Republican Senators
Since I've been remarking on the calm, even tone of Wisconsin pro-union protests, I want to point out the exceptions. Charlie Sykes posts a death threat-laden e-mail sent to 15 Republican members of the Senate; I've confirmed that the e-mail was received, and that this was the text.
Please put your things in order because you will be killed and your familes will also be killed due to your actions in the last 8 weeks. Please explain to them that this is because if we get rid of you and your families then it will save the rights of 300,000 people and also be able to close the deficit that you have created. I hope you have a good time in hell. Read below for more information on possible scenarios in which you will die.
...
24 | Sheila Broflovski Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:31:26pm |
re: #13 EmmmieG
They would be more likely to get a hard-working engineer.
Full disclosure: Married to a hard-working high tech engineer.
full disclosure: I am a high tech engineer, and I am nowhere near "wealthy"
25 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:31:40pm |
re: #22 iossarian
No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.
That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?
26 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:04pm |
re: #23 NJDhockeyfan
Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?
27 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:06pm |
Fox & Friends openly mock Sarah Palin (How bad do you have to suck to get mocked by that group of idiots?)...but Fox appears to have pulled the video...
The Fox morning team openly chuckled at Palin’s 2012 decision, needling the Alaska governor-turned-Fox-commentator for her Wednesday announcement that she was skipping the race.
“Is that what she said? It was so circuitous,” said co-host Brian Kilmeade.Gretchen Carlson joined in: “The difference, I think, between Chris Christie and Sarah Palin — Chris Christie called a press conference, of course, to say that he was not going to be running — but there were tons of people publicly asking Chris Christie to run for president.”
Read more: [Link: www.politico.com...]
28 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:32:21pm |
re: #9 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
If they exhibited Tea Party behavior, they would have brought guns and talked about 2d amendment solutions to dealing with Wall Street
Depemds. The only Tea Parties they brought weapons to were in states and locations that allowed open carry. I'll give the Tea Partiers credit for getting permits for their protests and generally behaving themselves. There are plenty of threatening signs and language at the wall street protests to. We've had entire threads about similar Tea Party signs.
29 | zora Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:33:07pm |
re: #19 NJDhockeyfan
getting closer, but needs a little more nuance.
30 | jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:03pm |
re: #25 NJDhockeyfan
That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?
If nobody wants anyone to die please explain the cheering...
31 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:21pm |
re: #24 Alouette
full disclosure: I am a high tech engineer, and I am nowhere near "wealthy"
But if some whack-o just followed a car home and fire bombed that person's house, they would be more likely to get an engineer or programmer than an exec.
32 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:34:48pm |
re: #26 iossarian
Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?
No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.
33 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:19pm |
And yet, in the real world, we do have creatures like the Kochs, and laws like the Haliburton loopholes. We have major banks and credit companies squeezing working America as hard as they can ,and protected by their pet political stooges. We are suffering for the mismanagement of an unelected few. And yet, average Americans go to war and suffer grievous wounds to keep oil flowing for those corporations. And yet, we pay more for our health care than any other civilized nation and only manage to provide healthcare on the level of a former SSR for most of our population because of all the parasites we have, protected by pet politicians.
There is even a perfect song about it:
Everybody knows that the fight is fixed, the poor stay poor and the rich get rich, that's how it goes...
And yet, we act as if this message is somehow unclear or, muddled or, confused and the very plutocrats who astroturfed the teaparty, would like us to believe this is just the expression of useless people. Afterall, everyone not in that club, is only a tool to be used or a useless person to be squashed. Of course, it is a giant muddled mess. Of course there are a large number of fools drawn to discord and the usual idiots earnestly, but ceaselessly venting their rage at the wrong targets.
The true question is why is not middle America there with them making a louder and more clear message? Is it that hard to open the eyes? Is it that hard to do the math?
We all know the GOP is the party of the plutocrats. We all know that the GOP callously does not care about the suffering of Americans. We all know who the bad guys are.
Time to take democracy back.
We might have a chance, if we actually try.
34 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:45pm |
You know things are bad when the police are administering the beatdown on Sesame Street.
35 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:35:53pm |
Pinko liberal at Occupy Wall Street:
Image: tumblr_lsnb4eDrlh1qkw0m9o1_500.jpg
36 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:36:01pm |
re: #25 NJDhockeyfan
That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?
Two options for healthcare, A and B:
A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.
Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?
37 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:37:21pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.
To suggest your side owns the most lunatics is stupid. To suggest the other side does is perfectly normal.
The whole purpose of having standards is that they can always be doubled.
38 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:37:29pm |
re: #30 jamesfirecat
If nobody wants anyone to die please explain the cheering...
The murderers on death row represent:
"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."
Got it.
39 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:38:41pm |
It's going to be another one of those days, isn't it?
40 | Interesting Times Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:03pm |
re: #38 NJDhockeyfan
The murderers on death row represent:
"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."
Got it.
I believe jamesfirecat linked the wrong video - this one is far more apropos:
41 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:12pm |
re: #36 iossarian
Two options for healthcare, A and B:
A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.
Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?
I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.
////
42 | jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:39:18pm |
re: #38 NJDhockeyfan
The murderers on death row represent:
"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."
Got it.
You said "Nobody wants anyone to die." people on death row fall into the category of "anyone" don't they?
Do you want to change your original statement?
44 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:05pm |
re: #14 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Because we know the TP would never engage in threatening behavior ever.
Oh wait, we aren't supposed to judge the TP because it attracted a few crazies. Thats just a lone wolf fringe.
what does the threatening email to fatcats have to do with the tea party? oh, MBF.
45 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:25pm |
Haven't tried masturbating to the Constitution...
Yet...
46 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:27pm |
re: #41 NJDhockeyfan
I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.
///
Give me another reason then. Remember, A costs less and prevents more disease than B.
47 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:27pm |
48 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:48pm |
re: #34 lawhawk
You know things are bad when the police are administering the beatdown on Sesame Street.
lol
49 | zora Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:40:59pm |
re: #38 NJDhockeyfan
how often do conservatives cheer the evil goverment? not often. but when the government decides to execute that gets a rise out of them. it's unsettling to say the least.
50 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:06pm |
re: #39 makeitstop
It's going to be another one of those days, isn't it?
Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.
51 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:16pm |
re: #36 iossarian
Two options for healthcare, A and B:
A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.
Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?
The real answer is that in addition to being racist bastards who don't mind seeing poor people, who in this nation, used to be mostly brown but less and less so as the whole middle class evaporates, die, conservative bastards are egomaniacal, selfish and evil, enough to think that they too are somehow part of the ruling class and will one day piss on everyone else too, no matter how bad they are off now.
52 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:41:39pm |
re: #45 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Haven't tried masturbating to the Constitution...
Yet...
The First Amendment gets me off...but not in that way.
53 | jaunte Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:42:16pm |
Today's Fox News email, still asking why:
Image: FoxFanEmail.jpg
54 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:42:44pm |
re: #38 NJDhockeyfan
The murderers on death row represent:
"conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses."
Got it.
OK, how about let him die calls in reference to Americans without health insurance, at Republican debates... does that jog your selective memory?
55 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:22pm |
re: #26 iossarian
Interesting. Does the presence/absence of violent lunatics in a given political movement influence your voting behavior at all?
If we withheld votes based on the behavior of the lunatic fringes, there would be no one to vote for, not even the Greens.
56 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:38pm |
re: #44 Gepetto
what does the threatening email to fatcats have to do with the tea party? oh, MBF.
Because the whole point of the daily show clip was comparing the Tea Party to the OWS protestors. Ask NJ why he decided to bring up emails.
57 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:43:46pm |
re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.
So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/
58 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:44:19pm |
re: #57 Simply Sarah
So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/
Groucho?
59 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:44:24pm |
re: #50 SanFranciscoZionist
Yes. The OWS protests are opening old wounds and driving splitting wedges through LGF, and we're just going to have to ride it out.
No we don't!
Attica!
Attica!
Attica!
60 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:45:03pm |
re: #41 NJDhockeyfan
I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.
///
Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?
Or I suppose you could just read Ayn Rand...
Or listen to them...
Hello...
Earth calling wingnut whitewasher with selective memory...
Remember that?
62 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:45:58pm |
re: #58 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Groucho?
Nah. The one that had a beard. I think his name was Pinko.
63 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:46:16pm |
64 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:46:47pm |
re: #57 Simply Sarah
So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/
Depends on how you look in it... I am all for inspiring the workers to seize the means of production...
65 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:47:32pm |
67 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:07pm |
re: #47 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Man Arrested For Threatening to Kill Democratic Senator Jim McDermott
Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'
Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor
We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.
68 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:10pm |
One year ago today (Somehow this seems relevant to the discussion):
Gene Cranick of Obion County and his family lost all of their possessions in the Sept. 29 fire, along with three dogs and a cat.
69 | Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:48:17pm |
re: #19 NJDhockeyfan
Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?
Grow up.
71 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:03pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'
Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor
We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.
I can agree with you on that.
72 | jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:20pm |
re: #68 goddamnedfrank
One year ago today (Somehow this seems relevant to the discussion):
Jeebus Cripes I knew that story but somehow I never got around to hearing the part where the people lost pets in the fire also.... just makes it that much more deplorable doesn't it?
73 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:49:54pm |
One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:
Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.
74 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:50:42pm |
75 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:51:03pm |
re: #28 Killgore Trout
I'll give the Tea Partiers credit for getting permits for their protests
I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?
76 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:51:19pm |
re: #69 RayFerd
Grow up.
Go piss up a rope.
(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)
77 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:01pm |
re: #55 Gepetto
If we withheld votes based on the behavior of the lunatic fringes, there would be no one to vote for, not even the Greens.
I'd say 'especially not the Greens', but YMMV.
78 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:26pm |
re: #75 000G
I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?
Because it's the law?
79 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:30pm |
re: #57 Simply Sarah
So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/
Ah, go for it. It's going to be an intolerable little bit anyway.
80 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:32pm |
re: #75 000G
I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?
Because all rights are subject to limitations. You don't have the right to say anything you want either in all circumstances - like shouting fire in a crowed theater just for kicks.
81 | jaunte Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:52:49pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?
82 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:15pm |
re: #62 Simply Sarah
Nah. The one that had a beard. I think his name was Pinko.
The real test, though, is, would you wear it in Miami?
(Was it Miami?)
83 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:34pm |
re: #64 LudwigVanQuixote
Depends on how you look in it... I am all for inspiring the workers to seize the means of production...
Well, I need to find the right outfit for it. It only came in red or black.
84 | Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:53:41pm |
re: #23 NJDhockeyfan
Abortion doctor SHOT in church
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
gay man dragged behind truck
[Link: www.skeptictank.org...]
85 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:10pm |
re: #79 SanFranciscoZionist
Ah, go for it. It's going to be an intolerable little bit anyway.
NO ITS NOT!
/
86 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:12pm |
re: #81 jaunte
Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?
Great catch!
87 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:41pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'
Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor
We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.
Cantor's threat was from a Fundamentalist Christian Extremist.
The chairman of the Delaware Republican Party received a death threat last week over his support for Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del) over Tea Party challenger Christine O'Donnell in the state's upcoming Senate primary, a party official confirmed to the Huffington Post.
Tom Ross's threat was from a Teabagger who was pissed he supported Castle over Christine "I'm not a witch" O'Donnell. It's not an example of "both sides do it" ...it's an example of the right wing being so unhinged it attacks its own.
Sometimes it helps to actually read the links you provide before doing this:
88 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:54:42pm |
re: #76 NJDhockeyfan
Go piss up a rope.
(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)
So you noticed it enough to ding it down, but didn't answer the question...
When you were denying that teabags like watching poor people die:
I guess they enjoy watching poor people to die.
///
I asked:
Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?
Or I suppose you could just read Ayn Rand...
Or listen to them...
So do you have a cogent response there? Or are you just going to sulk?
89 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:55:16pm |
re: #83 Simply Sarah
Well, I need to find the right outfit for it. They only came in red or black.
Red cotton jumpsuits for the guys, red leather catsuits for the ladies......
(*i said that out loud, didn't I?*)
90 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:55:34pm |
re: #75 000G
I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?
I don't know what the relevent law is, but in most urban areas you do need a permit for a large demonstration (or party, or craft fair) in many places, especially when you're planning a sound system or will be closing traffic.
91 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:56:01pm |
re: #76 NJDhockeyfan
Go piss up a rope.
(...must keep away from cigarettes...resist the urge...I can do it...)
And good luck on the resisting cigs... that I honestly sympathize with.
92 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:04pm |
re: #85 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
NO ITS NOT!
/
I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the screaming food fight discussion, so I'm just taking life easily.
93 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:42pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'
Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor
We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.
lol, from your first link:
The chairman of the Delaware Republican Party received a death threat last week over his support for Rep. Mike Castle (R-Del) over Tea Party challenger Christine O'Donnell in the state's upcoming Senate primary,
So that death threat was actually from a teabagger against an "establishment" Republican.
94 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:57:52pm |
re: #81 jaunte
Wasn't Ross threatened because the emailer thought he was too much of a RINO?
Both sides do it! The Right and the extreme Right.
95 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:03pm |
re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist
I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the
screaming food fightdiscussion, so I'm just taking life easily.
Yes, your aversion to taking stands on issues you previously avowed is well noted.
96 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:35pm |
re: #36 iossarian
Two options for healthcare, A and B:
A costs less, prevents more disease, and, crucially, covers poor people who, under option B, are left to die.
Yet conservatives prefer B to A. Why?
they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person
the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics
97 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:58:43pm |
re: #92 SanFranciscoZionist
I expect to be annoyed by both sides of the
screaming food fightdiscussion, so I'm just taking life easily.
I just remind myself its the internet, nothing personal, and enjoy some porn for a while to unwind.
98 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:01pm |
re: #57 Simply Sarah
So...this might not be the best time to show off my new "I *heart* Marx" shirt to everyone?
/
Only if it's got a picture of Groucho on it.
99 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:36pm |
If it's going to be one of *those* threads I'm outta here for the night...........
100 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 12:59:57pm |
re: #96 engineer dog
they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person
the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics
Well exactly. I was hoping to hear an actual, self-proclaimed conservative come up with a less distasteful explanation, but there you go.
I suppose there aren't any.
101 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:01pm |
re: #93 000G
lol, from your first link:
So the first threat was actually from a teabagger against an "establishment" Republican.
This isn't the first time this has happened to NJD...The google doesn't tell you if the examples it gets are good...it expects you to spend a minute or two reading and then processing the information it returns so you know if it supports your position or not.
102 | jaunte Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:03pm |
Must remember not to buy any used Constitutions.
103 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:10pm |
re: #98 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Only if it's got a picture of Groucho on it.
A child of 5 could understand that........
send for a child of 5.........
104 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:20pm |
re: #88 LudwigVanQuixote
So you noticed it enough to ding it down, but didn't answer the question...
When you were denying that teabags like watching poor people die:
......
Well they call for it to round of applause at GOP debates.. remember that?
They had a round of applause for watching poor people die...really?
What, are you a fucking nut or just stupid?
Jesus Christ. Is it a full moon or something?
105 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:00:46pm |
re: #102 jaunte
Must remember not to buy any used Constitutions.
Puts a whole new spin on hotel copies of the NT as well.
106 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:19pm |
re: #71 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
I can agree with you on that.
I see some people here don't agree. What a shame.
107 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:23pm |
re: #105 iossarian
Puts a whole new spin on hotel copies of the NT as well.
All that begettin' began back in the bible...........
108 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:27pm |
re: #56 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Because the whole point of the daily show clip was comparing the Tea Party to the OWS protestors. Ask NJ why he decided to bring up emails.
I don't think he should be downdinged for it. The wall street protests are the topic of the thread. Just like if this were a tea party thread and there was a recent story about right wing death threats.
109 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:01:36pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.
It's not stupid, it's the truth. MBF would be false and stupid.
But personally, I would love for the Birchers and the Bob Avakian groupies to enter the thunderdome.
111 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:05pm |
I gotta go work now. All you nice lizards and lunatics have a great day.
112 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:08pm |
re: #104 NJDhockeyfan
They had a round of applause for watching poor people die...really?
What, are you a fucking nut or just stupid?
Jesus Christ. Is it a full moon or something?
There was vocal assent when Ron Paul said that people who couldn't afford to pay for their healthcare should be left to die.
But besides that, do you have a reason why option B is preferable to option A? Remember, A is cheaper and prevents more disease.
113 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:23pm |
makeitstop grabs bowl of popcorn, settles into chair...
114 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:02:44pm |
re: #96 engineer dog
they've been convinced that A means they will have to personally pay for the hypothetical laziness and irresponsibility of some hypothetical undeserving person
the demonization of victims is the gasoline for a large part of this kind of politics
And of course, when they need that assistance it is different. It is always different. It's true for red states who hate that gov't money while fighting for it. It's true on the small scale. I recall so many wingnuts here decrying gov't health benefits, but then claiming they had earned the ones they received.
It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.
115 | SpaceJesus Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:04:09pm |
somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.
116 | NJDhockeyfan Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:04pm |
re: #112 iossarian
There was vocal assent when Ron Paul said that people who couldn't afford to pay for their healthcare should be left to die.
But besides that, do you have a reason why option B is preferable to option A? Remember, A is cheaper and prevents more disease.
Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.
LOL!!
117 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:08pm |
re: #115 SpaceJesus
somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.
Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.
118 | Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:19pm |
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
119 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:40pm |
re: #101 darthstar
It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.
120 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:41pm |
re: #19 NJDhockeyfan
Lone wolf fringe. I see. So GOP members rarely receive threats but Democrats do much more because conservatives are evil?
what really bothers me is that there seems to be a pervasive mainstream conservative belief that it is okay to threaten "liberals" because we are not "real" americans
the attitude i see on fox news is that while tea party threats of violence may be regrettable, the anger is understandable since liberals "hate america" and are "trying to destroy" it
how would conservatives like it if it were routinely assumed that they were not "real heartland americans", that they "don't understand american values", and that "they are trying to destroy american greatness"?
exhibit A: sean hannity
121 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:43pm |
re: #116 NJDhockeyfan
Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.
LOL!!
He's an exemplar, but you still haven't explained why conservatives prefer option B, which is more expensive and less effective at keeping people healthy, to option A.
122 | MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:05:50pm |
re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote
One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:
Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.
This I can agree with...OWS' problems with its kooks are, in its own ways, just as bad as the TP, but without the benefit of the media organizations or the well-funded astroturfers to spin and sanitize it or for public consumption.
123 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:06:44pm |
re: #116 NJDhockeyfan
Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.
LOL!!
Well that is one thing I mentioned...
Also in this thread, I've mentioned war for oil... that is most certainly enjoying poor people dying, chanting for execution, again usually poor people dying, the rich ones can afford much better attorneys, the writings of Ayn Rand and a plethora of other GOP stands.
Take your pick.
124 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:06:48pm |
re: #25 NJDhockeyfan
That's totally absurd. Nobody wants anyone to die. What is wrong with you?
Now you're just lying.
125 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:07:22pm |
re: #118 Charles
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
Yeah. Have you seen the tumbler post with all the personal stories?
126 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:07:50pm |
re: #75 000G
I thought the United States Constitution guaranteed freedom of assembly. Why do you then need a permit to exercise that right?
Do you really mot understand that? There are many reasons. Scheduling is one reason. That way a Tea party at a park won't interfere with a large family reunion, free charity conert or something. Sanitation is another reason: to make sure the organizers have facilities, portapotties, etc for the amount of people they expect to attend. Liability is another reason. if the organizers build a shitty stage that collapses and people get hurt the city needs to make sure that the injured people have some recourse. Also if the crowd goes nuts and burns down the neighboring church the organizers need liability insurance to cover it.
Seriously, it's not that difficult to understand.
127 | MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:02pm |
re: #115 SpaceJesus
somebody should inform coulter that if we had kept the traditional values of the founding fathers that she would not be allowed to vote or speak without her husband's permission.
ZING! POW!
128 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:06pm |
re: #119 000G
It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.
Well, every example these people have of the violent tendencies of the left is older than I am, so yes, if the OWS people would PLEASE bomb something, it would perk up some members of the Fox brigade no end.
No sarc. I'm pretty sure Coulter would dance a jig.
129 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:31pm |
re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote
And of course, when they need that assistance it is different. It is always different. It's true for red states who hate that gov't money while fighting for it. It's true on the small scale. I recall so many wingnuts here decrying gov't health benefits, but then claiming they had earned the ones they received.
It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.
Cases in point:
* Half of US social program recipients believe they 'have not used a government social program'
* Classic: The only moral abortion is MY abortion
130 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:56pm |
re: #118 Charles
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
i'm largely sympathetic to OWS
i expect it to continue to be easy to find people there saying stupid things that i don't agree with, but to me it seems obvious that the main idea is that wall st is getting all the breaks while the rest of us are getting a raw deal
i don't know why teabaggers can't figure out that they are on the same side as OWS in this
131 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:09:57pm |
re: #126 Killgore Trout
What part of "angry mob" do you not understand?
/
132 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:10:03pm |
re: #126 Killgore Trout
Do you really mot understand that?
No, I did. I just wanted to see how far the understanding of people here extended.
133 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:11:17pm |
re: #128 SanFranciscoZionist
I am pretty sure Bloomberg will find something nasty if he wants to swoop them out eventually. Worked in 2003, too.
134 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:05pm |
re: #118 Charles
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.
The quote from the truck driver is especially good:
People looking for "a coherent message" in the park would do well to talk to Brendan Burke, a tall, tattooed truck driver with a degree from NYU and The New School, who's based at the center of the park, where four or five young people are crouched over laptops, shouting into the wind in their own way.
"People are informed today. People are online," Burke explains. "People in Kansas do yoga, you understand. Country's different, you understand? There's no more mooks in the citizenry. We are working people and we're not getting a fair shake, so we took to the streets. It's an irrational act, an act of passion, but we need to use self-control and respect. Those who want to go down with the ship will go down with the ship. Those who will be there will be sensible people who are out here for a reason. The kids who are out here who just want to party, well, they're beautiful children and we protect them every night. I can't even tell you what's going to happen after today. The cops may sweep this when the landlord says I want them out.
"Not anti-anybody. We're pro-American citizen. Millions of Americans are getting kicked out of their house. They're losing their education, their health care. They can't take care of their parents. This is about people. Republicans are opening their bills. Democrats are opening their bills. I'll go all the way to $250,000 if you want. Everybody's opening their bills and they're thinking, 'Who's protecting me from people stealing from me?' This isn't what I agreed on when I signed this agreement with this company. You add all these hassles up in your life — your hospital, your credit card, your education, your mortgage — and you're getting nailed. And there are a couple of banks who created the instruments that made that happen. This is not a physical war. This is an oppression that's quiet, and through money, and through services, and through small print. They want you to be afraid, and not to know, and they want to bewilder you. Between you and me, I shouldn't get a credit card. But I got one. I didn't even apply for it. Why am I getting a credit card?
"This is not Tahrir Square. This is not Tompkins Square Park. This is not Yuppies against squatters. This is about minds. We need help from people who know. We need help from people in the financial industry who know. They should be here, too. He should want to see a better community. I want to see change in a systematic and legislative way. We're looking for real results. We're looking for protection for people. We're down here trying to play bills. It's serious out there, but it's quiet, because it happens at everyone's kitchen table. It's happening household-by-household. There's a sense out there, which I hope what's going on here will dissipate, that there's something wrong with me. I'm a jerk because I can't pay that bill. There are working men who will march tomorrow. It's all about people, who feel they got duped. There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."
Well worth reading.
135 | MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:36pm |
re: #130 engineer dog
i'm largely sympathetic to OWS
i expect it to continue to be easy to find people there saying stupid things that i don't agree with, but to me it seems obvious that the main idea is that wall st is getting all the breaks while the rest of us are getting a raw deal
i don't know why teabaggers can't figure out that they are on the same side as OWS in this
Anything the scary commies and socalists are for, Real American Teabaggers are against!
///dripping
136 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:12:44pm |
re: #114 LudwigVanQuixote
It's true in the abortion fight too. Ask most OB gyns who perform abortions, and they will tell you of the woman on the protest line, who saw them secretly, but her case was different.
yes - i have a link somewhere to an article giving chapter and verse on exactly that, from an ob gyn
137 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:00pm |
re: #32 NJDhockeyfan
No, there are lunatics all over. To suggest one side owns the most lunatic is stupid.
Well no, it's a historical fact.
If you like, I'll link you to pictures of the last generation of conservative bigots to remind you of what they did to civil rights protesters.
Today, they're waving Gadsden flags and clamoring for more of the same from their Medicare scooters. /
138 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:15pm |
re: #119 000G
It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.
they're preaching to the 80-year-old conservative choir, for whom the 60's are very relevant lol
139 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:27pm |
re: #118 Charles
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
I'm rather sympathetic to much of the general ideas being espoused, if not some of the specific groups and causes. I'm hopeful, but very wary over the whole thing for many of the reasons people have outlined here.
140 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:51pm |
re: #116 NJDhockeyfan
Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.
LOL!!
I don't think you have answered Obdicut's questions yet on how today's GOP is different in major economical policy positions from Ron Paul.
141 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:13:52pm |
re: #134 makeitstop
Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.
The quote from the truck driver is especially good:
Well worth reading.
"There's no more mooks in the citizenry."
Gotta love it.
Not sure I agree with him, but gotta love it.
142 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:03pm |
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
145 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:37pm |
re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote
Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.
Completely unneccessary, Ludwig.
146 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:14:54pm |
re: #134 makeitstop
Charles - I linked to this post by Charles Pierce on the overnight thread last night. Pierce nails it on a number of levels.
The quote from the truck driver is especially good:
Well worth reading.
"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."
And this is the key phrase.
147 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:15:26pm |
148 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:15:58pm |
re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist
"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."
And this is the key phrase.
Does he have a lobbyist yet? No? Too bad.
/
149 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:05pm |
re: #119 000G
It's a lot of wishful thinking. Kinda like Fox News wants OWS to be the 60s/70s hippies counterculture menace conservatives love to mock and hate.
look at the OWS protesters and tell me what the average age is, and then look at the tea party protests and tell me what the average age is, and then tell me what the future of american politics is
150 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:13pm |
re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
I liked this from the comments: "My white brother from another mother has officially made the dumbest statement of the day."
151 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:28pm |
re: #132 000G
No, I did. I just wanted to see how far the understanding of people here extended.
Thanks for wasting my time typing an honest reply to your question.
152 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:43pm |
153 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:43pm |
re: #125 LudwigVanQuixote
Yeah. Have you seen the tumbler post with all the personal stories?
I saw some conservative commentator dismissing the whole thing with saying
It's a blog of people whining about their student loans. Well, they should take responsibilities for the choices they made!
154 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:16:57pm |
re: #138 WindUpBird
they're preaching to the 80-year-old conservative choir, for whom the 60's are very relevant lol
155 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:17:54pm |
re: #146 SanFranciscoZionist
"There needs to be a systematic legislative change, so that this cannot happen any more."
And this is the key phrase.
I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible....they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?....because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis
156 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:05pm |
re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
There are no words.
157 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:08pm |
re: #133 000G
I am pretty sure Bloomberg will find something nasty if he wants to swoop them out eventually. Worked in 2003, too.
His wife is on the board of the park, BTW.
158 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:23pm |
re: #130 engineer dog
Having spent a bit of time covering this stuff first hand, I am both sympathetic and leery of the protesters. For instance, I see friends and family suffering from real estate market issues - like being incapable of moving to relocate for a potential job because they're underwater on homes. I see stagnant and sliding wages. I see job cuts even as top execs get raises. Yet, the Jews-bankers-antisemitism thing makes me quite leery of the protesters as does some of the far left end the fed/ANSWER crowd stuff.
But at the same time there is common ground - TP and OWS recognize that there's a huge issue but they're taking opposite tacts. TP sees government as the problem (so they went ahead and sent their own candidates to DC where they promptly became part of the obstructionist right - blocking actions that would have been considered reasonable and prudent just a few short years ago). OWS sees Wall Street as the prime problem.
Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.
159 | Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:34pm |
re: #67 NJDhockeyfan
Tom Ross, Delaware GOP Chair, Threatened With 'Bullet In The Head'
Man sentenced for death threat on GOP leader Cantor
We could probably do this all day but what's the point? There are scumbags & kooks all over and I don't think they represent either side.
The point is I am using references to people that actually DID these things, not some loud mouth (fingers) that just threatened.
160 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:48pm |
re: #151 Killgore Trout
Thanks for wasting my time typing an honest reply to your question.
I don't think it was wasted.
161 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:18:59pm |
162 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:19:37pm |
163 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:29pm |
re: #118 Charles
I'm getting more sympathetic to the demonstrations myself. I still don't like some of the elements that are involved -- especially the Ron Paul-influenced "End the Fed" idiocy, and the extreme lefties like ANSWER.
But unlike the Tea Parties, this really does seem to be a classic example of a true populist movement. The basic message is that the middle and lower classes are getting increasingly screwed over by an obscenely bloated upper class, and that's a message that resonates.
It doesn't have any appeal to me aside from the broad message. Stewart points out it's essentially the same as the Tea Party. It is more of an honest grass roots movement although it's helped along by ANSWER, Workers World Party and various socialist groups which I don't approve of. I don't like the violence, fighting with cops, etc and the tired 60's era mantras are just silly to me. I just don't get it.
164 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:32pm |
re: #141 SanFranciscoZionist
"There's no more mooks in the citizenry."
Gotta love it.
Not sure I agree with him, but gotta love it.
Yeah, I kinda giggled at that, ruefully.
But who can argue with his larger point?
165 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:20:35pm |
re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
Yeah, part of your life of trying to intimidate everyone in your path, enraged because the government is no longer legally permitted to do it for you.
/cry me a river
166 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:06pm |
re: #155 albusteve
I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis
Most of the 'agendas' I've seen for the OWS (which are largely laundry lists of nonsense) outline things that can only be done by legislation.
The smarter OWSers talk about legislation.
Wall Street may be where the anger is directed, but Wall Street can't and won't negotiate with citizens.
Sooner or later, we go to the 'feds'.
167 | Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:12pm |
168 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:26pm |
re: #158 lawhawk
Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.
If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?
169 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:21:30pm |
re: #160 000G
I don't think it was wasted.
bullshit...your question was so stupid I passed it by, then you admit it was loaded anyway?
170 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:23:07pm |
re: #166 SanFranciscoZionist
Most of the 'agendas' I've seen for the OWS (which are largely laundry lists of nonsense) outline things that can only be done by legislation.
The smarter OWSers talk about legislation.
Wall Street may be where the anger is directed, but Wall Street can't and won't negotiate with citizens.
Sooner or later, we go to the 'feds'.
the sooner the better, which is why this protest doesn't impress me
171 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:24:29pm |
re: #155 albusteve
I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis
re: #158 lawhawk
But at the same time there is common ground - TP and OWS recognize that there's a huge issue but they're taking opposite tacts. TP sees government as the problem (so they went ahead and sent their own candidates to DC where they promptly became part of the obstructionist right - blocking actions that would have been considered reasonable and prudent just a few short years ago). OWS sees Wall Street as the prime problem.
Fact is that there are problems with both - and both need to be tackled jointly.
agree
173 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:24:55pm |
re: #168 iossarian
If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?
Caesar.
174 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:03pm |
re: #169 albusteve
The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.
175 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:10pm |
re: #168 iossarian
If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?
Obviously I'm not the one being asked, but if I were to answer this, I'd say it's a bit of a no-win question. I think the Democrats are toothless and often also in the pockets of the same/similar powerful interests, whereas the current Republicans generally come off to me as being outright dangerous. So probably the Democrats, but I'd not exactly be enthusiastic.
176 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:17pm |
re: #170 albusteve
See: [Link: occupydc.org...]
177 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:25:41pm |
re: #117 LudwigVanQuixote
Someone should tell Coulter that in the 18th century she would be killed because she was mistaken for a cross dressing man.
Nah, that's b.s.
178 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:26:54pm |
re: #177 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Nah, that's b.s.
Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.
179 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:26:57pm |
re: #172 LudwigVanQuixote
I am so glad you are here... Just earlier, we were talking about posters here who hated government health benefits but considered the ones they received to be something they had earned.
Just like you did.
Care to comment?
you're lying...pretty typical
there is no such post
180 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:04pm |
re: #175 Simply Sarah
You took the words right out of my mouth. Or off my keyboard.
181 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:04pm |
re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
Apropos White Fright, I haven't seen OrionXP lately. Wonder what he thinks of OWS. He had a rather reasonable conservative angle.
182 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:22pm |
re: #169 albusteve
bullshit...your question was so stupid I passed it by, then you admit it was loaded anyway?
Loaded?
183 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:26pm |
185 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:27:42pm |
re: #174 Obdicut
The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.
I'll accept that, naive would have been a better word
186 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:35pm |
re: #168 iossarian
If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?
That's a tough one. I don't know a lot of single-issue voters, except for some cons I know online (e.g. taxes, antiabortion, etc.)
If that were the only issue, I would have to go with NOTA, looking over the past 30 years.
187 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:40pm |
re: #163 Killgore Trout
It doesn't have any appeal to me aside from the broad message. Stewart points out it's essentially the same as the Tea Party. It is more of an honest grass roots movement although it's helped along by ANSWER, Workers World Party and various socialist groups which I don't approve of. I don't like the violence, fighting with cops, etc and the tired 60's era mantras are just silly to me. I just don't get it.
Really? Then you're not hurting enough.
I'll remind you that even assuming 5% unemployment is "normal", we've got 10% official and as high as 15% of the public unemployed. Followed the rules and still losing their homes, watching their loved ones NOT get medical care because they can't afford it, not able to keep food on the table without listening to some pompous ass tell them they need to find jesus or need to get serious about finding work.
And then some idiot gets on a balcony and toasts us with champagne, or laughs and declaims they're one of the 1%. What crosses my mind in this situation?
"Qu'ils mangent de la brioche."
Not what she said, but the attitude wasn't unique and caused a whole lot of bloodshed.
Anger? yep. The Tea Party's anger was successfully rerouted by various interests. maybe the OWS anger will be, too. But if things don't get taken care of the anger won't go away.
And if you can't see why all the anger, maybe you're just not looking very hard.
189 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:28:48pm |
steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years
190 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:07pm |
re: #175 Simply Sarah
Obviously I'm not the one being asked, but if I were to answer this, I'd say it's a bit of a no-win question. I think the Democrats are toothless and often also in the pockets of the same/similar powerful interests, whereas the current Republicans generally come off to me as being outright dangerous. So probably the Democrats, but I'd not exactly be enthusiastic.
Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?
191 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:17pm |
re: #168 iossarian
Good question, and I'd lean Democrat. The GOP has shown nothing to deal with the mess of things. Cutting taxes by itself as a be-all and end-all isn't a solution. Cutting government by itself isn't a solution either.
Solutions are far more nuanced than a simple tax/spend or cut taxes/smaller government mantra allows - and fact is that most people understand this, even if their electoral preferences don't always show it. Most recent polls show that the public is open to a combination of higher taxes on "rich" with spending cuts to get the budgetary situation under control.
And it wouldn't be the first time I'd be accused of being a RINO, even though I was a DINO for a long time (and I'm really more conservative on fiscal issues than most Democrats, and more liberal than Republicans would ever admit on social stuff).
192 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:29:55pm |
re: #189 engineer dog
steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years
And he had all of his shit made in China and shipped in.
He didn't complain. He just had the shit made in China.
193 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:16pm |
re: #181 000G
Apropos White Fright, I haven't seen OrionXP lately. Wonder what he thinks of OWS. He had a rather reasonable
conservativelibertarian angle.
I wonder where he went too. I used to follow his twitter account, but now I don't remember what it was.
194 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:17pm |
re: #189 engineer dog
steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years
Especially since he got the manufacturing work transferred to China
195 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:19pm |
re: #191 lawhawk
Good question, and I'd lean Democrat. The GOP has shown nothing to deal with the mess of things. Cutting taxes by itself as a be-all and end-all isn't a solution. Cutting government by itself isn't a solution either.
Solutions are far more nuanced than a simple tax/spend or cut taxes/smaller government mantra allows - and fact is that most people understand this, even if their electoral preferences don't always show it. Most recent polls show that the public is open to a combination of higher taxes on "rich" with spending cuts to get the budgetary situation under control.
And it wouldn't be the first time I'd be accused of being a RINO, even though I was a DINO for a long time (and I'm really more conservative on fiscal issues than most Democrats, and more liberal than Republicans would ever admit on social stuff).
Stuck in the middle with you in more ways than you know actually.
196 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:21pm |
re: #175 Simply Sarah
I really think a lot of the problem is that the political class are people who have made it in the US. They're successful. They make a pretty good salary, have perks, health care, and after they're out, they can get lobbying jobs.
It can't help but insulate them from the problems of actual Americans. They can try to be empathetic, and they should, but even the ones who grew up poor-- there's a big difference between being poor, and having been poor. Especially since there's a great temptation to say that it makes you better, that you rose out of being poor, that you overcame that; it can actually make you less sympathetic to others.
There's no really good solution to this problem, but it should be acknowledged. It's on thing the Tea Party says that's true: the political class are out of touch. But it's not solved by replacing them.
197 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:30:41pm |
re: #184 goddamnedfrank
Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /
198 | bratwurst Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:10pm |
re: #188 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh I am surely not the only one who remembers those threads. I don't have the patience to sift through looking for them, Stevo, but don't lie. You will get caught out.
Could you be seeking this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
199 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:37pm |
re: #195 LudwigVanQuixote
Just as long as there are clowns to the left, jokers on the right, and Mr. Blonde doesn't have a razor blade.
200 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:31:55pm |
201 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:05pm |
re: #197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /
How long before we hear someone asking when they can get another Kent State?
202 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:09pm |
re: #190 iossarian
Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?
Don't get me wrong, I have been excruciatingly clear on who I will vote for... but the Dems are a fractured and weak party. Even when they held both houses and the presidency, they proved to have all the spine of a jellyfish.
203 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:37pm |
I'll ask my question another way: which do people think would be better for the US, as an outcome of the 2012 elections:
Option A: President Obama, 70 Democrats in the Senate (across the current D spectrum), 300 Democrats in the House (ditto)
Option B: President Romney, 70 Republicans in the Senate, 300 Republicans in the House
204 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:41pm |
re: #192 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And he had all of his shit made in China and shipped in.
He didn't complain. He just had the shit made in China.
At least he didn't have the shit made in China and then act like a martyr. That is something, these days.
205 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:32:41pm |
re: #200 wozzablog
I flossed this morning, but the keyboard is a mess.
Board chow is necessary for when you have to work late.
208 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:16pm |
re: #174 Obdicut
The question of why there are restrictions on the right to assemble and what they are isn't really a dumb question.
I'd agree if the question had been asked out of a sincere desire to better understand something instead of as a test of "how far the understanding of people here extended". It's been my experience that the majority of the folks here, whether I agree with them or not, tend to be pretty well informed about things like that.
210 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:21pm |
re: #190 iossarian
Emphasis mine. Do you think voting Democratic would tend to make the Democrats more, or less, toothless?
Hard to say. I know that having people vote for the GOP over them tends to make them more toothless, since the assumption appears to be "People want what they are selling". On the other hand, rewarding them for being toothless probably just encourages it. This is why Elizabeth Warren will have to be my replacement for not being able to vote for Kennedy again. And it'll feel better than voting for Coakley.
211 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:33:28pm |
re: #189 engineer dog
That must've been a set up... even I caught that.
Back to work. Somebody's gotta pay for the guy who has to shovel up protester's feces and water bottles.
212 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:17pm |
re: #208 CuriousLurker
Oh, I didn't see that bit. Yeah, that's dumb.
213 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:39pm |
re: #198 bratwurst
Could you be seeking this?
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
I don't see 'hated govt health benefits' in there do you?...or even know what the phrase is supposed to mean?
214 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:34:53pm |
re: #197 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Cons love state-sponsored violence against protesters. They did in the 60s and they still do, today. Probably because they lost the battles of the 60s. 1860s, too. /
I just love watching the mental filters at work. He somehow saw "marxists with trust funds" where there was no tangible reason to ascribe either term. The video showed unarmed women, who as it turns out weren't arrested.
215 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:35:11pm |
re: #204 SanFranciscoZionist
At least he didn't have the shit made in China and then act like a martyr. That is something, these days.
No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.
216 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:35:43pm |
217 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:09pm |
re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote
Maybe the issue was priorities - was HCR the top priority to be passed when the economy was still in a recession, or should the political capital have been spent on getting further stimulus via infrastructure to outlast the downward portion of the recessionary cycle?
You can argue that the two were equal priorities and that both could have been passed, but a President has limited capital to push on issues, and the economy remains the top priority (and overriding issue in voters' minds). Did getting HCR limit the President's ability to push for further economic assistance/programs? Absolutely.
Was HCR flawed? Absolutely. But the changes underway are an improvement on the system that was in place (with a cost that is still out of control - and may end up be a limiting factor in how much improvement takes place).
218 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:22pm |
re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.
But...government regulations and the minimum wage forced him to ship those jobs oveseas.
///
219 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:27pm |
re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote
Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.
There really is no need to harp on Coulter for what you perceive to be some violation of standard gender looks. It doesn't help the point any. In fact, quite the opposite.
220 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:30pm |
re: #216 Simply Sarah
You crafty bastard!
Heh. Note that I'm not saying "perfect", just "better". Hence the guy waking up from the coma. Knowing nothing, which way should he vote?
221 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:36:41pm |
re: #201 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
How long before we hear someone asking when they can get another Kent State?
I think that's exactly what the worst of them are hoping for.
Oddly, at the same time, they put up a picture of some 18 year old young woman in a green hat with ears, to pillory as if she's some kind of threat to them.
They resent anyone who stands in the way of their states rights/police state ideals.
223 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:37:32pm |
re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
No. But, some of the people who could have been building those products are wandering around in NYC.
Well, yeah. That's our basic problem, or one of them.
If we committed as a nation to bringing manufacturing back to the US, at a living, union wage...I don't know what would happen, but it would sure be fun to see us try.
224 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm |
re: #200 wozzablog
I flossed this morning, but the keyboard is a mess.
I love my black keyboard. And my black phones.
225 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm |
The anti-politics of Occupy Wall Street
you will be smarter for having read this
To understand #OccupyWallStreet, you have to get that it is not a media object or a march. It is first and foremost, a church of dissent, a space made sacred by a community. But like Medieval churches, it is also now the physical center of that community. It has become many things. Public square. Carnival. Place to get news. Daycare center. Health care center. Concert venue. Library. Performance space. School.
This kind of power, the power that comes from the trust and love of other people, doesn’t emerge from a list of policy demands. It comes from the formation of a public, through the appreciation and sharing of a public space. It takes work, but the result is… #OccupyWallStreet. Or the camps in Israel, or Spain, or Wisconsin, or elsewhere there are mini-civilizations sprouting up.
just sayin', thinking is more useful than just reacting
226 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:00pm |
re: #215 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.
227 | bratwurst Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:09pm |
re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote
Why thank you!
So Stevo... There is your quote that you lied about not existing...
care to comment?
Don't often like to stir the pot, but was very disappointed the other night when Steve was allowed to get away with asserting that he had never said anything bad about Obama personally...maybe some people don't consider being called "a drooling idiot" a personal insult, I don't know.
228 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:44pm |
re: #225 WindUpBird
The premise of their politics is that #OccupyWallStreet isn’t designed to fit into your TV or newspaper. Nothing human really is, which is why our politics is so utterly deformed. It’s why they don’t want to be “on message” – what kind of human society can truly be reduced to a slogan? I’m not sure I agree with their political premise. But in the carnival they have created, in the liveliness and beauty and art and fun and utter humanity of it all, they make a damn good case.
229 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:38:55pm |
re: #218 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
But...government regulations and the minimum wage forced him to ship those jobs oveseas.
///
I am fairly certain that Apple didn't do it because reasons other than cheap labor and low regulations.
231 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:40:48pm |
re: #217 lawhawk
Maybe the issue was priorities - was HCR the top priority to be passed when the economy was still in a recession, or should the political capital have been spent on getting further stimulus via infrastructure to outlast the downward portion of the recessionary cycle?
You can argue that the two were equal priorities and that both could have been passed, but a President has limited capital to push on issues, and the economy remains the top priority (and overriding issue in voters' minds). Did getting HCR limit the President's ability to push for further economic assistance/programs? Absolutely.
Was HCR flawed? Absolutely. But the changes underway are an improvement on the system that was in place (with a cost that is still out of control - and may end up be a limiting factor in how much improvement takes place).
I have to agree. Passing a budget was first and foremost the most important thing they could have done. Climate matters above all else, because if we don't fix that, healthcare and taxes and the government really quite literally, won't eventually matter.
But I also think it is really important that the Dems could never get a consistent message going to save their lives. They could never stand up to all the lies and the propaganda from Fox as a party, only as disparate and confused sounding individuals. They all had to put their little stamps on things and cover their own fiefdoms first to the detriment of bills. Worse they continued to give away concession after concession to a party that clearly said it would not negotiate.
232 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:40:51pm |
233 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:00pm |
re: #230 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Let's go hang out in an Occupied park together and braid each other's hair.
Which I have no idea how to do, so there better be some scissors around.
234 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:02pm |
re: #193 wrenchwench
I wonder where he went too. I used to follow his twitter account, but now I don't remember what it was.
It's true his general outlook was libertarian, but he did have genuine appreciation for some social conservative concerns.
235 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:16pm |
re: #225 WindUpBird
The anti-politics of Occupy Wall Street
you will be smarter for having read this
just sayin', thinking is more useful than just reacting
Reaction, after some thought: eye roll.
Jaysus, Bird, you're my age, you've read this sort of thing before.
236 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:21pm |
re: #203 iossarian
Four other options you need to consider:
C) Obama as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
D) Romney as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
E) Obama as President with Democrat House and Republican Senate
F) Romney as President with a Democrat House and Republican Senate
With the way the public has been voting - a split Executive/Legislature between the parties is more the norm.
What preference I want is actually irrelevant considering that it ignores what the voters have been doing as an aggregate. I think we can expect the House to shift back to the Democrats and the Senate might change hands - or tighten up so that the swing votes have more sway (say hello to a new Gang of 4/6/8 or what have you).
237 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:55pm |
re: #219 000G
There really is no need to harp on Coulter for what you perceive to be some violation of standard gender looks. It doesn't help the point any. In fact, quite the opposite.
Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?
238 | Fat Bastard Vegetarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:41:58pm |
240 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:04pm |
re: #233 Obdicut
Let's go hang out in an Occupied park together and braid each other's hair.
Which I have no idea how to do, so there better be some scissors around.
You really don't know how to braid if you think you need scissors.
241 | lawhawk Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:25pm |
re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist
Ford's going to be doing just that. They're committing to bringing some of the jobs back to the US under their latest UAW deal.
So, it can be done. The companies just have to recognize the value and utility of doing it.
242 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:35pm |
re: #194 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Apropos: [Link: www.bloomberg.com...]
243 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:42:55pm |
re: #184 goddamnedfrank
Like I said, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters. Fighting with cops, blocking traffic, interfering with arrests. This is how people get hurt and it's not in the spirit of civil disobedience. Seriously, more people should read it. The concept has been bastardized by the modern left.
244 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:07pm |
re: #241 lawhawk
Ford's going to be doing just that. They're committing to bringing some of the jobs back to the US under their latest UAW deal.
So, it can be done. The companies just have to recognize the value and utility of doing it.
Thanks for mentioning. I'll have to take a look at that.
245 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:10pm |
re: #22 iossarian
No, conservatives are evil because they think poor people should be left to die of easily preventable illnesses.
Violent nutters, whatever their political bent, don't necessarily tell you much about the mainstream of either movement, though it is worth noting that in general, right-wing rhetoric of the past 10 years has been much more violent than left-wing rhetoric.
What is really worth noting is that in the last 10 years, and really, for longer than that, there has been effectively no violence from either wing. Lone nutters, as everybody agrees, don't count. So, what would count? A conspiracy. A series of political assassinations, aligned to a single end. A series of inexplicable deaths which conveniently advantage one party or the other.
Ballot boxes seized by one party or the other. Voters prevented, by mob threat, from voting.
All these things are almost par for the course in many parts of the world. We just don't see them here. Our elections are fought out over the airwaves, on cable TV and talk radio and newspaper editorials and word of mouth. If they're very close, they're fought out in the courts, and, who knows, maybe a few ballots are tampered with, just enough to put somebody over the top. Or maybe not. That sort of thing is hard to prove, and even if it did happen from time to time, it wouldn't exactly be violence.
The big picture is that we have free and fair elections, people can safely speak their minds, and about the worst that one can fear, in hotly contested elections, is lawn signs stolen and perhaps some non-accidental flat tires. Not that even that is OK, but as violence goes, it's small beer.
246 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:43:48pm |
re: #187 kirkspencer
Really? Then you're not hurting enough.
Don't tell me how much i'm hurting or not hurting. You have no idea.
247 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:01pm |
re: #231 LudwigVanQuixote
The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.
Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.
248 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:35pm |
re: #226 Obdicut
I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.
We did miss the window. But that's because the outsourcing had two objectives. The obvious one was the pursuit of greater profit. But there were a lot of warnings of the problems, most of which occurred, and which have cost at least as much. If it'd been solely profit fewer might have outsourced.
Meet objective two: break the unions. Break their pesky ability to negotiate pay and benefits, to protect the retirement funds (all that wasted capital just sitting there instead of in MY bank account), etc.
The unions have no power to negotiate for overseas employees, and the various laws that prevent moving to Right to Fire Work states don't stop overseas movement.
249 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:35pm |
re: #232 EmmmieG
If you start the group hugs, I'm leaving.
People used to hate me in the barracks because when they would start grabassing and wrestling, I'd ask "Who needs a hug?" and walk towards them ready to hug. Freaked them out and they'd stop fucking around when I started asking.
250 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:44:45pm |
re: #236 lawhawk
Four other options you need to consider:
C) Obama as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
D) Romney as President with a Republican House and Democratic Senate
E) Obama as President with Democrat House and Republican Senate
F) Romney as President with a Democrat House and Republican Senate
That's a bit of a dodge from my question. Obviously there are other options - I was simply asking which you thought would be better: total Democratic control or total Republican control, given today's political spectrum and how the Washington branches of the parties fit within it.
252 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:04pm |
re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?
I don't want to flip out into queer feminist mode, but I don't think finding that sort of comment troubling and offensive has anything to do with being 'PC police'.
253 | Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:22pm |
I'm starting to feel very disrespected by you, LVQ.
254 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:45:54pm |
re: #178 LudwigVanQuixote
Fine fine fine... You are correct, the 18th century was much more tolerant of such things.
It's the 21st c - trannybaiting is for the 18th.
255 | blueraven Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:00pm |
re: #209 LudwigVanQuixote
I'm sorry, but digging into someones private affairs and using it as a weapon, should be off limits here.
256 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:09pm |
re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?
You are welcome to make an ass out of yourself all you want ("Coulter looks like a man hur hur, that means social conservatives from 200 years ago would think of her as a transvestite and kill her hur hur") and drag down the integrity of your argument with it. I am not going to stop you. But I will point out to you what you are doing.
257 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:36pm |
re: #247 EmmmieG
The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.
Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.
I agree to some extent. However, you've just implied what I have been talking about. Strong and consistent messages come from leaders with visions and spines and moral courage to do what they think is right - not gutless polls who live and die on every poll and hence by attempting to please all the time and offend none of the time, never take a stand when a stand is needed.
258 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:46:40pm |
re: #255 blueraven
I'm sorry, but digging into someones private affairs and using it as a weapon, should be off limits here.
I leave that sort of shit to Breitbart.
259 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:47:31pm |
re: #247 EmmmieG
The reason that the various parties have all sounded so schizophrenic is that they are trying to say what their constituents want. Their constituents happen to be thousands or even millions of separate individuals, with different ways of thinking and interests, so of course it's going to come out schizo.
Until we find someone who presents their own strong message, we're stuck with schizo.
Except that they don't represent their constituents, especially not the GOP. Polling on raising taxes on the wealthy, for example, clearly shows that they want it raised, even in GOP districts; and yet the GOP fights against that.
However, those same GOP people will vote the way that person wants on other issues. I feel the GOP uses the social issues it champions to take advantage of its constituents, and fails to represent them on economic issues.
260 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:00pm |
re: #254 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
It's the 21st c - trannybaiting is for the 18th.
Edward Hyde was a cross-dresser in the eighteenth century--and he was Royal Governor of New York and New Jersey.
He was also, reportedly, way too into his wife's ears, and a really lousy governor, but what the hell. You can't have everything.
261 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:04pm |
re: #246 Killgore Trout
Don't tell me how much i'm hurting or not hurting. You have no idea.
I didn't say you weren't hurting. I said that if you can't see why people are angry enough to be gathering and shouting then you aren't hurting enough.
As bad off as I am I know there are people worse. But I can, through a fairly short series of steps, determine that a lot of my problems are influenced by if not directly caused by the 1 percenters. And I've got this opinion about people who will harm or allow harm to my wife and daughter so they can be a little richer.
262 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:04pm |
re: #196 Obdicut
There's no really good solution to this problem, but it should be acknowledged. It's one thing the Tea Party says that's true: the political class are out of touch. But it's not solved by replacing them.
It's certainly not helped by a race to the bottom in political interaction in order to reach the holy grail of ideological purity, which seems to be the TGOP mission statement. If OWS goes down that road – and it very well might –, I'll join KT and SFZ.
263 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:49:13pm |
re: #256 000G
Has anyone ever told you that you much much too literal minded and dogmatic?
264 | Almost Killed by Space Hookers Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:50:19pm |
re: #253 Charles
I'm starting to feel very disrespected by you, LVQ.
None intended... I think I'll sign off.
265 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:50:31pm |
re: #243 Killgore Trout
Like I said, I don't have much sympathy for the protesters. Fighting with cops, blocking traffic, interfering with arrests. This is how people get hurt and it's not in the spirit of civil disobedience. Seriously, more people should read it. The concept has been bastardized by the modern left.
But why invent derogatory terms like marxists with trust funds? It strikes me that the last time you showed this little sympathy for a protestor was when that Code Pink lady got her neck stomped on by one of Ron Paul's goons, after she'd been pinned and subdued. It's possible to disagree with people without demeaning them, giving them simplistic and likely false labels, and cheering when they're physically abused. You've made a choice to cheer on the violence, in cases where there's no plausible justification. That's just creepy.
266 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:10pm |
re: #259 Obdicut
This is going to be very Hallmark-y, so forgive me:
Statesmen (I refuse to say Statespersons) are the leaders their constituents need, not the leaders their constituents want.*
Now, the question is: how do we get such a person elected. Better education in the schools might help.
*If you're wondering where I'm getting this, my original thought contained the phrase "parents." I am at this moment referring a very stupid fight over sunglasses. In October. In Oregon. The sun won't be out for another six months. Right now I am thinking the boys need a kick in the tush.
267 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:18pm |
re: #237 LudwigVanQuixote
Ohhh... for crying out loud... Is your purpose to be the new PC police?
It's not PC police. Trannybaiting one's opponents is weak sauce.
Everything she spews out of her mouth or keyboard is worthy of criticism on its own lack of merit. She is a heinous person regardless of her perceived sexuality or gender. BTW, I don't give two cruds who thinks it's "pc" of me to say so.
268 | Jimmi the Grey Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:18pm |
re: #116 NJDhockeyfan
Ron Paul? Are fucking kidding me? That's what all this whining is all about, the Ron Paul crowd? He's just a tiny canker sore in Washington with a Republican Party pin.
LOL!!
I think what you're missing is that it didn't happen at a Ron Paul rally, but an a GOP primary debate. Wasn't a bunch of Paulbots that cheered this, but GOP potential voters.
269 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:51:27pm |
re: #223 SanFranciscoZionist
Well, yeah. That's our basic problem, or one of them.
If we committed as a nation to bringing manufacturing back to the US, at a living, union wage...I don't know what would happen, but it would sure be fun to see us try.
A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.
It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.
270 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:52:00pm |
re: #202 LudwigVanQuixote
Don't get me wrong, I have been excruciatingly clear on who I will vote for... but the Dems are a fractured and weak party. Even when they held both houses and the presidency, they proved to have all the spine of a jellyfish.
That's more an outcome of having a Senate where each state gets equal representation regardless of population size.
271 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:52:52pm |
re: #208 CuriousLurker
It wasn't so much a "test" as a genuine curiosity. And I never pretend that my knowledge is the end-all and be-all of all things, so when asking I was also open to learn something new.
273 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:30pm |
re: #267 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
It's not PC police. Trannybaiting one's opponents is weak sauce.
Everything she spews out of her mouth or keyboard is worthy of criticism on its own lack of merit. She is a heinous person regardless of her perceived sexuality or gender. BTW, I don't give two cruds who thinks it's "pc" of me to say so.
I agree with your sentiment, but I do have to admit that the term "trannybaiting" *does* make me a bit uneasy.
274 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:47pm |
re: #262 000G
It's certainly not helped by a race to the bottom in political interaction in order to reach the holy grail of ideological purity, which seems to be the TGOP mission statement. If OWS goes down that road – and it very well might –, I'll join KT and SFZ.
I'm not sure I'm quite on a page with KT. I'm observing what's going on. I have some concerns about where they might go, but my strongest sense is that they, as a group, aren't going much of anywhere.
If I turn out to be very mistaken, that will be nice, because God knows, we need a functioning left wing in this country.
275 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:53:58pm |
re: #269 lostlakehiker
A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.
It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.
I somewhat agree with this. The problem is not necessarily that jobs have gone (bear with me): it's that the gains in productivity that have led to a decline in the number of hours of work necessary to support our standard of living have not been shared equitably.
276 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:03pm |
re: #270 recusancy
That's more an outcome of having a Senate where each state gets equal representation regardless of population size.
That's a very good point, and one that doesn't get talked about enough.
As a citizen of first California, and then New York, I am vastly under-represented, in the Senate, compared to someone from Wyoming, or Georgia, or Missisippi, or, well, a ton of other states.
The states are a totally arbitrary level of government. They don't have anything meaningful or sacred to their divisions. Sure, it's nifty to have them as 'laboratories of democracy', if they actually functioned that way, but the number of times you have states copying each other's good programs is rather low. Mostly, what you get is the factionalism in the Senate that comes from people from very non-populous states holding equal power to those from populous ones.
In addition, if I want to get the attention of my senator, I have to work amazingly hard to do so. Someone from Montana has a much easier task; there's simply fewer people trying to do the same thing.
Fixing this would be nearly impossible, but it's something we need to do, eventually.
277 | Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:14pm |
I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.
We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.
278 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:56:54pm |
re: #261 kirkspencer
I didn't say you weren't hurting. I said that if you can't see why people are angry enough to be gathering and shouting then you aren't hurting enough.
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
279 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:57:01pm |
Off-topic weirdness: We use tracfone because I don't use my phone enough to justify a monthly contract. I just added the year's worth of service again.
My next due date came up one day less than last year. (i.e. from Oct 15, 2011 to Oct 14, 2012)
????
Then I remembered. Leap year. I bought 365 days, not 1 year.
I wonder if anything else will be affected.
I'm probably boring everyone else.
280 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:57:20pm |
re: #265 goddamnedfrank
It strikes me that the last time you showed this little sympathy for a protestor was when that Code Pink lady got her neck stomped on by one of Ron Paul's goons, after she'd been pinned and subdued.
I wasn't here for that, but I'm not surprised in the least to hear that was the reaction.
BTW it was a Kland Paul (R - Klan) goon, not Ron Paul (R - Stormfront).
281 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:04pm |
re: #269 lostlakehiker
A Quixotic project. Manufacturing output in the U.S. is up, decade over decade. Manufacturing employment is falling worldwide. Even in China. We are in the process of doing to manufacturing what we did in the last century to agriculture: we're getting it down to a routine grind that doesn't require many man-hours of input.
It wouldn't be any fun at all to see us try, and fail. Which is the real alternative to trying something else, something that might work.
What we should be noticing is that the automation and processes that did in manufacturing employment are coming soon to a white collar job near you.
Science fiction's had stories about it for (literally) decades: what happens when only a handful of manhours of work are required to care for our needs?
We've gone through it before, and it'll be no easier this time. At core the two extremes are obvious: either some work a lot while the rest idle, or everyone works fewer total hours. Depending on how it gets there, the former will either be autocrats or slaves to the rest, which is why I rather prefer the latter solution.
282 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:43pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
Well, if the frogs return, you'll be happy for at least one day.
283 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 1:58:53pm |
re: #226 Obdicut
I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right.
That was me.
And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.
Yeah, their "middle class" is getting too big.
Agree about Africa, too. It will be very interesting in the next couple of decades, I predict.
284 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:00:31pm |
re: #277 Amory Blaine
I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.
We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.
Then join the movement and don't let KT make up your mind for you. If you join you can help move it in the right direction. The reason these things can become overtaken by the crazies is because they engage. They are active. And good luck to you in WI! :)
285 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:00:44pm |
re: #277 Amory Blaine
I'm torn about the protests myself. Mostly as a result of Killgore Trouts balanced approach at viewing the issue placing a moderate bug in my head. We in Wisconsin are in full battle mode, kind of got the ball rolling and I hope someone takes control of the more extreme elements that I keep hearing about at OWS. I'd hate to have all the hard work of the message of, you know, the middle class and workers trying to rise up to protect their dwindling resources lost because of the fringe.
We're still trying to remove Walker from office. I want to see this movement help,, not hurt that cause.
I think the Wisconsin protests are a good example to bring up. Sure, there were radical socialists and assorted idiots who showed up to the protests but they weren't the organizers. The Wisconsin protests were a reaction to a policy by the people being effected not just a random assortment of generally disgruntled partisans. At least for me there's a big difference.
286 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:01:02pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
I know that you're hurting. But I finally did get around to checking out the protests, and there are plenty of people there who are broke. I met a lot of barristas, waitresses, home health aides, and the like. A lot of people living paycheck to paycheck, a lot of people with part-time jobs and no health care. It's not just students and trust funders. Definitely not.
There defintely were ANSWER and WWP and Adbuster jerks there. But most of the people I talked to didn't know who those organizations actually were.
I'll do a page on it later.
287 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:01:39pm |
re: #155 albusteve
I can't figure out why people are not holding the feds responsible...they write the rules and regs, if banks are criminal why are there no investigations?...because WS and the feds are one in the same, the perfect symbiosis
Indeed. There's even a book out, giving proof. "Reckless Endangerment".
288 | Amory Blaine Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:18pm |
re: #284 recusancy
I'm already in a movement. I marched this winter and spring. Probably will again. I'm waiting for my recall clipboard. :)
289 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:45pm |
re: #273 Simply Sarah
I agree with your sentiment, but I do have to admit that the term "trannybaiting" *does* make me a bit uneasy.
Why does it make you uneasy?
I typically write out social slurs like that, myself.
290 | blueraven Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:02:50pm |
re: #286 Obdicut
I know that you're hurting. But I finally did get around to checking out the protests, and there are plenty of people there who are broke. I met a lot of barristas, waitresses, home health aides, and the like. A lot of people living paycheck to paycheck, a lot of people with part-time jobs and no health care. It's not just students and trust funders. Definitely not.
There defintely were ANSWER and WWP and Adbuster jerks there. But most of the people I talked to didn't know who those organizations actually were.
I'll do a page on it later.
Looking forward to that Obdicut! It is really great to have first hand observations from you and Lawhawk!
291 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:01pm |
re: #287 lostlakehiker
Yep. We need much, much stronger regulation of the financial markets and banking houses. The SEC needs to get its teeth back.
With the GOP-- aided by the Dems with ties to the banking industry-- fighting that tooth and nail, it doesn't have much chance of happening. The fiscal reform Obama passed they're already trying to roll back.
292 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:19pm |
Wow, sorry to be late people, but I missed the bus and had to run all the way.
What did I miss?
293 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:30pm |
re: #284 recusancy
Then join the movement and don't let KT make up your mind for you.
That's what I've been saying. KT has his take and his opinions, neither of which is balanced or moderate, afaic - those true colors came out in the wash a couple nights ago, as true colors always do. I'd rather see for myself.
294 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:04:40pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
They're not exactly the mob at the Bastille, but then again, we're a generation raised with higher expectations.
295 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:21pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.
296 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:59pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
Ah. They have refrigerators and indoor plumbing, they're rich enough?
It's your strawman, actually. Some have laptops and iphones, some (perhaps many) don't. You literally have no idea what any of the incomes are, but you're poorer than them all without needing to check.
Let's bring it down to a simpler case. I'm supporting a family of three on my savings, which are almost gone. This year so far I've earned $4,500 and been given another $2000 from friends and family. I don't have a job because they cut the jobs at the library when they reduced taxes - and since everyone is cutting taxes and libraries are taking the biggest hits I'm one of a growing number of unemployed skilled librarians. At 50 and with a master's degree I'm too old and too educated for most positions.
For three. F'ing. Years.
I have a daughter with a major medical issue and a wife with a cancerous lesion and neither of them have seen a doctor in two years because (ready for this) I earned too much money to get medicaid in this state. The cap is $400 a month.
So there you go, Killgore Trout. Tell me how you're worse.
Better yet, tell me why I'm not supposed to be angry at the people who stood up and told me it was too bad and I should have taken another profession.
297 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:05:59pm |
re: #291 Obdicut
Yep. We need much, much stronger regulation of the financial markets and banking houses. The SEC needs to get its teeth back.
With the GOP-- aided by the Dems with ties to the banking industry-- fighting that tooth and nail, it doesn't have much chance of happening. The fiscal reform Obama passed they're already trying to roll back.
It's why we need people like Elizabeth Warren.
298 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:02pm |
re: #295 Obdicut
Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.
A bit like the Dems and the KKK.
/byrd
299 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:36pm |
re: #289 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Why does it make you uneasy?
I typically write out social slurs like that, myself.
Mainly because I'm not a huge fan of the term "tranny" to refer to transgender/transsexual people, since it is, as you say, a social slur and is intended to be derogatory.
What would I call it instead? I dunno. Genderbaiting? Offensive?
300 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:06:40pm |
re: #142 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Lindsey Graham On ‘Intimidation’: ‘If You’re A Southern White Guy, It Is Part Of Your Life’
The white man's burden, huh?
Well...it is a part of their life. You got to practice working the firehose, train your dog to hate black people and maintain a strict diet to keep it hungry but healthy, and learn to do the Superman phone-booth change in and out of your white robes. And a proper burning cross requires mitering skills. Evening mean going to the focus groups to test out new epithets for brown people.
At very least you have to make a lifestyle commitment to the banality of evil.
So yeah, it's a part of your life.
301 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:07:03pm |
re: #293 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
And I, for one, get uncomfortable about people who use phrases like 'true colors'.
We're all just humans. We need to work together. Killgore is a crotchety dude and I disagree with a lot of the stuff he says, but passing him off as just another 'con' as you've been doing is a mistake, both on a political and intellectual level.
303 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:07:58pm |
re: #276 Obdicut
That's a very good point, and one that doesn't get talked about enough.
As a citizen of first California, and then New York, I am vastly under-represented, in the Senate, compared to someone from Wyoming, or Georgia, or Missisippi, or, well, a ton of other states.
The states are a totally arbitrary level of government. They don't have anything meaningful or sacred to their divisions. Sure, it's nifty to have them as 'laboratories of democracy', if they actually functioned that way, but the number of times you have states copying each other's good programs is rather low. Mostly, what you get is the factionalism in the Senate that comes from people from very non-populous states holding equal power to those from populous ones.
In addition, if I want to get the attention of my senator, I have to work amazingly hard to do so. Someone from Montana has a much easier task; there's simply fewer people trying to do the same thing.
Fixing this would be nearly impossible, but it's something we need to do, eventually.
As a citizen of CA, your vote is far more likely to swing a presidential election than the vote of somebody from WY. Being part of the nation's largest bloc is very helpful that way. When the shoe is on the other foot, this is well understood, and with some reason, resented: citizens of TX have disproportionate say in what goes into textbooks at the K-12 level because TX buys as a bloc (while CA doesn't.)
How this all settles out isn't easy to calculate. Any state that settles on one party makes itself more or less irrelevant in presidential elections; the battleground, and the favors that are offered, moves to swing states. So from that perspective, the people of CA, TX, and NY simply don't matter. Their votes are a sure thing. But that's not institutionalized. Some other day, matters might be different.
304 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:08:08pm |
re: #295 Obdicut
Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.
Oh good grief.
The machinations of which block of the 4th International is disavowing Stalinism at any one particular point in time is one of the oldest hats in the universe.
305 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:08:39pm |
re: #279 EmmmieG
Off-topic weirdness: We use tracfone because I don't use my phone enough to justify a monthly contract. I just added the year's worth of service again.
My next due date came up one day less than last year. (i.e. from Oct 15, 2011 to Oct 14, 2012)
???
Then I remembered. Leap year. I bought 365 days, not 1 year.
I wonder if anything else will be affected.
I'm probably boring everyone else.
I have a niece and nephew who are learning how to drive. They turn 4 next Feb. 29th. (Yes, twins.)
306 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:09:10pm |
re: #303 lostlakehiker
As a citizen of CA, your vote is far more likely to swing a presidential election than the vote of somebody from WY.
Huh? Can you explain why you think so?
Did you understand I was talking about the Senate?
307 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:09:38pm |
re: #304 wozzablog
Oh good grief.
The machinations of which block of the 4th international is disavowing Stalinism is one of the oldest hats in the universe.
Once you're under that bed it's hard to get out you know.
308 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:10:26pm |
re: #304 wozzablog
Oh good grief.
The machinations of which block of the 4th international is disavowing Stalinism is one of the oldest hats in the universe.
I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese Communist party repudiates 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.
309 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:04pm |
Looks like the popcorn machine needs to be filled again. And we're out of sea salt.
310 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:22pm |
re: #292 b_sharp
Wow, sorry to be late people, but I missed the bus and had to run all the way.
What did I miss?
The bus.
311 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:27pm |
re: #305 wrenchwench
I have a niece and nephew who are learning how to drive. They turn 4 next Feb. 29th. (Yes, twins.)
I'll bet they have a lot of fun with that.
312 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:11:56pm |
re: #245 lostlakehiker
What is really worth noting is that in the last 10 years, and really, for longer than that, there has been effectively no violence from either wing. Lone nutters, as everybody agrees, don't count. So, what would count? A conspiracy. A series of political assassinations, aligned to a single end. A series of inexplicable deaths which conveniently advantage one party or the other.
Ballot boxes seized by one party or the other. Voters prevented, by mob threat, from voting.
All these things are almost par for the course in many parts of the world. We just don't see them here. Our elections are fought out over the airwaves, on cable TV and talk radio and newspaper editorials and word of mouth. If they're very close, they're fought out in the courts, and, who knows, maybe a few ballots are tampered with, just enough to put somebody over the top. Or maybe not. That sort of thing is hard to prove, and even if it did happen from time to time, it wouldn't exactly be violence.
The big picture is that we have free and fair elections, people can safely speak their minds, and about the worst that one can fear, in hotly contested elections, is lawn signs stolen and perhaps some non-accidental flat tires. Not that even that is OK, but as violence goes, it's small beer.
I don't think you have been paying much attention. Just a few samples:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Oh yeah, and then there was this:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
313 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:03pm |
314 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:12pm |
re: #309 b_sharp
Looks like the popcorn machine needs to be filled again. And we're out of sea salt.
My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.
315 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:20pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese party repudiations 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.
Lip service to the ideal of being "progressive" in the face of a hideous history.
316 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:12:47pm |
re: #299 Simply Sarah
Mainly because I'm not a huge fan of the term "tranny" to refer to transgender/transsexual people, since it is, as you say, a social slur and is intended to be derogatory.
What would I call it instead? I dunno. Genderbaiting? Offensive?
Yeah, I've heard all manner of views on the word, having trans friends, myself, and besides having gone to many a Trannyshack over the years. It's not a static term. I don't have any problem not using "trannybaiting" or starring it out if it bothers you, though.
318 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:19pm |
re: #245 lostlakehiker
Abortion bombings and other such attacks are not lone nutters. They have a frightening amount of support. So no, you're wrong.
319 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:30pm |
re: #295 Obdicut
Oh, and for "Don't know whether to laugh of cry" moment, there was a WWP dude i talked to who had no clue that the WWP had supported the Soviet invasion of Hungary. I think the WWP is playing down their Maoist/USSR past.
The Trots try very hard to match their image and presentation to whatever they can pick up about what you're interested in, sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits. WWP probably the same. There's a lot of lying in Communist circles, and a lot of retcon and revisionism.
Was anyone besides you talking to them? They always look kind of lonely when I see them at local demos.
320 | iossarian Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:13:44pm |
re: #314 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
[Video]My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.
And on that bombshell, I'm out of here. Farewell comrades.
321 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:05pm |
re: #246 Killgore Trout
I think he was implying lack of class consciousness and was wording it badly by refering to personal feelings like pain.
Just a guess, though.
322 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:19pm |
re: #314 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
[Video]My wife has informed me I am no longer allowed to strip to this song.
I'm glad I can't see her point.
323 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:36pm |
re: #306 Obdicut
Huh? Can you explain why you think so?
Did you understand I was talking about the Senate?
Yes, but the Senate is just one part of the govt. So I cede your point, which is indisputable, and widen the conversation to another branch, elections for the executive.
The reason that citizens of a big state are more likely to swing an election when it's close all around is that the probability of the election's being dead even apart from your one vote, while very small in either case, drops like only 1/(Square root of number of voters.) The weight of the state, on the other hand, is such that in an election where all the states are a tossup because every voter is a tossup, winning CA goes a long way toward victory.
324 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:36pm |
325 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:14:43pm |
re: #304 wozzablog
Oh good grief.
The machinations of which block of the 4th International is disavowing Stalinism at any one particular point in time is one of the oldest hats in the universe.
I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT????
326 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:05pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese Communist party repudiates 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.
"Mistakes were made".
327 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:20pm |
re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist
They were handing out their literature and people were looking at it kind of confusedly and letting it drop when they were ten feet away, as usual. I'd say they were better received than at most protests, but really, I didn't meet almost anyone who actually knew who they were.
This was just a brief flying visit. I'm going to go for longer tomorrow, if I feel all better.
328 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:15:42pm |
re: #301 Obdicut
And I, for one, get uncomfortable about people who use phrases like 'true colors'.
We're all just humans. We need to work together. Killgore is a crotchety dude and I disagree with a lot of the stuff he says, but passing him off as just another 'con' as you've been doing is a mistake, both on a political and intellectual level.
I like a lot of what KT writes, personally. But that take on the OWS protesters has been a "con" take, which has been clear to me from the outset. His tantrum the other night actually came sooner than I though it would, but it wasn't a shock or surprise in the least.
330 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:16:13pm |
331 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:16:38pm |
re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist
The Trots try very hard to match their image and presentation to whatever they can pick up about what you're interested in, sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits. WWP probably the same. There's a lot of lying in Communist circles, and a lot of retcon and revisionism.
Was anyone besides you talking to them? They always look kind of lonely when I see them at local demos.
Some of the understanding of Stalinist revisionism in the assorted Internationals is equal to that of Holocaust Denial. No one dies in Ukraine from Stalin's famine policies (etc).
Grand delusions abound on the extremes of both sides of the spectrum.
333 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:43pm |
re: #327 Obdicut
They were handing out their literature and people were looking at it kind of confusedly and letting it drop when they were ten feet away, as usual. I'd say they were better received than at most protests, but really, I didn't meet almost anyone who actually knew who they were.
This was just a brief flying visit. I'm going to go for longer tomorrow, if I feel all better.
I'm sorry. I shouldn't laugh at the poor WWP guys. They're gonna have to keep turning out for as long as the protests last.
But I'm cracking up.
334 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:56pm |
re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist
I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT???
You would be surprised.
335 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:58pm |
re: #248 kirkspencer
Meet objective two: break the unions. Break their pesky ability to negotiate pay and benefits, to protect the retirement funds (all that wasted capital just sitting there instead of in MY bank account), etc.
The unions have no power to negotiate for overseas employees, and the various laws that prevent moving to Right to
FireWork states don't stop overseas movement.
Right on target. And again, this is the reason why the national labor woes of the U.S. (or any other free trade nation state in the industrialized world, i.e. all of them) cannot be solved on a purely national level. Capital has become so fluid, and spatial obstacles have become so insignificant that labor has to catch up to that or just suffer in its national strangleholds. There has to be a global solution.
336 | kirkspencer Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:17:59pm |
I need to go for a while. I'll check back later.
338 | jaunte Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:18:29pm |
Self-hating environmentalist?
Environmentalist was barred from U.S. because FBI feared he’d glue himself to Palin
339 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:18:43pm |
341 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:21pm |
re: #331 wozzablog
Some of the understanding of Stalinist revisionism in the assorted Internationals is equal to that of Holocaust Denial. No one dies in Ukraine from Stalin's famine policies (etc).
Grand delusions abound on the extremes of both sides of the spectrum.
Either that or the MBF comes to the rescue.
342 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:30pm |
re: #323 lostlakehiker
I'd have to see the actual math on it, but since West Virginia has 5 electoral votes, about 2 million people, and California has 55 votes with 40 million people, that means that a West Virginian's vote counts about twice what mine does in terms of electoral votes.
So an eyeball of it says that you're wrong, unless you look at it from some very odd perspective.
343 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:37pm |
344 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:19:37pm |
re: #319 SanFranciscoZionist
sort of like cut-rate Communist Jesuits
That deserves twenty thousand updings. Lol!
346 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:20:52pm |
I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?
347 | Simply Sarah Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:02pm |
re: #316 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Yeah, I've heard all manner of views on the word, having trans friends, myself, and besides having gone to many a Trannyshack over the years. It's not a static term. I don't have any problem not using "trannybaiting" or starring it out if it bothers you, though.
Eh, I think I can got over it, since I know you don't mean it as a slur against trans people. I realize it's a term that some sections of the trans community have attempted to embrace and reclaim, while others simply find it offensive in general. Sort of like the term w**** is for some sex workers, I suppose.
349 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:11pm |
re: #338 jaunte
Self-hating environmentalist?
Environmentalist was barred from U.S. because FBI feared he’d glue himself to Palin
LOL!!!
"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.
I wish they'd let him come. I don't care WHO he wanted to glue himself to. That there is high political comedy.
350 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:21:19pm |
re: #346 b_sharp
I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?
Wear something brownish.
351 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:22:01pm |
re: #348 prairiefire
Everybody's all shouty today.
I'm sorry, did you say something? I can't hear a thing.
352 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:22:51pm |
re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist
LOL!!!
"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.I wish they'd let him come. I don't care WHO he wanted to glue himself to. That there is high political comedy.
He would have to use Crazy Glue.
353 | jaunte Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:12pm |
re: #349 SanFranciscoZionist
Glue yourself to one Prime Minister, and the reputation never comes unstuck.
354 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:21pm |
re: #346 b_sharp
I wanna be a Marxist. Where do I sign up, and what do I have to bring aside from 3D glasses?
I'll start distributing the monthly Marxist pay checks......
355 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:23pm |
re: #346 b_sharp
FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?
After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.
356 | laZardo Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:23:30pm |
I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.
There, I said it.
357 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:02pm |
359 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:42pm |
re: #355 Obdicut
FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?
After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.
The last sentence being the real reason the world isn't Communist, not American military might or spending power of the late '80s.
360 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:24:52pm |
re: #355 Obdicut
FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?
After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.
I'd rather be a Groucho Marxist. It's less complicated.
361 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:25:17pm |
re: #355 Obdicut
FIirst you have to decide what sort of Marxist you want to be. Do you want to be a Marxist-Lenninist? A Marxist-Troskyite? A Classical Marxist? A Libertarian Marxist? A Structural Marxist?
After you decide that, you go and argue with any other kind of Marxist, because they are now your biggest enemy.
Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.
362 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:22pm |
re: #281 kirkspencer
What we should be noticing is that the automation and processes that did in manufacturing employment are coming soon to a white collar job near you.
Science fiction's had stories about it for (literally) decades: what happens when only a handful of manhours of work are required to care for our needs?
We've gone through it before, and it'll be no easier this time. At core the two extremes are obvious: either some work a lot while the rest idle, or everyone works fewer total hours. Depending on how it gets there, the former will either be autocrats or slaves to the rest, which is why I rather prefer the latter solution.
The ones whose work cannot be automated will, for some time yet to come if not indefinitely, include scientists, authors, stars of the performing arts, and athletes. There is really no way that these people can do their work at all unless they do it full bore.
Various sci-fi authors have tried out solutions, in thought-experiment form. Larry Niven's projection is a world in which people are free to pretty much not lift a finger, and are assured a "living wage" albeit quite modest. But you only get two birthrights for free. If you want a large family, you have to find a way to make a big contribution to society.
Just carrying a gene that confers, say, immunity to heart disease would qualify you, (the gene exists, confined to one little village in Italy), but mostly you'd need to actually do something.
363 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:30pm |
re: #360 b_sharp
I'd rather be a Groucho Marxist. It's less complicated.
I'm a Harpo Marxist, so you and I won't be able to agree on anything, and I'm also going to cut off your tie and then smile at you.
364 | MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:26:58pm |
365 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:02pm |
re: #361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.
Ah. Back in my college days a cheap form of entertainment between classes was initiating a heated discussion between the various Marxists selling papers on campus.
366 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:23pm |
Here comes the rain again...
I've been sitting for much of today, waiting to have a phone interview for a job. The woman keeps e-mailing me and pushing back an hour. We are now on for three-thirty. Meanwhile, I keep not doing things like turning on the dishwasher--because I need to speak to her soon.
Annoyance!
367 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:28:44pm |
re: #361 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Marxist factionalism is almost as dizzying and contentious as Protestant factionalism. It's just that the Protestants have been doing it for a lot longer.
Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.
368 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:29:39pm |
re: #363 Obdicut
I'm a Harpo Marxist, so you and I won't be able to agree on anything, and I'm also going to cut off your tie and then smile at you.
"I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception."
369 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:29:51pm |
re: #348 prairiefire
Everybody's all shouty today.
Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).
371 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:13pm |
re: #366 SanFranciscoZionist
Here comes the rain again...
I've been sitting for much of today, waiting to have a phone interview for a job. The woman keeps e-mailing me and pushing back an hour. We are now on for three-thirty. Meanwhile, I keep not doing things like turning on the dishwasher--because I need to speak to her soon.
Annoyance!
Are you trying to get a job with the cable company?
///well, that sucked!!
372 | allegro Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:26pm |
re: #338 jaunte
Self-hating environmentalist?
Environmentalist was barred from U.S. because FBI feared he’d glue himself to Palin
According to Glass, the officer posed a number of questions: Did he plan to super-glue himself to President Obama? What would Glass do if he met the president? After the officer wrapped up his questions, Glass proceeded to his actual visa interview with consular officials. There, too, he was asked super-glue-related questions: What about Sarah Palin? Would he super-glue himself to her?
"I'm not some kind of super-glue addict," Glass says.
OMG this is hilarious.
373 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:35pm |
re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.
Their punch and cookies leave much to be desired.
375 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:30:54pm |
re: #369 makeitstop
Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).
Happens every so often.
There seems to be a "pissing on the carpet" season, a few people indulge, the rest of us just have to step around it.
376 | prairiefire Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:31:20pm |
re: #369 makeitstop
Yeah, been like that for a few days now. I'm actually adjusting to it (while trying not to get shouty myself).
You know it's going to be a harsh election season when it's like this 13 months out. I'd really like the economy to get better. That would go a long way.
377 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:32:13pm |
378 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:32:53pm |
Back from the backyard wars. I win. Again. Weeds lose, but some roots remain (mint) and will bide their time until spring.
379 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:10pm |
re: #362 lostlakehiker
The ones whose work cannot be automated will, for some time yet to come if not indefinitely, include scientists, authors, stars of the performing arts, and athletes. There is really no way that these people can do their work at all unless they do it full bore.
Various sci-fi authors have tried out solutions, in thought-experiment form. Larry Niven's projection is a world in which people are free to pretty much not lift a finger, and are assured a "living wage" albeit quite modest. But you only get two birthrights for free. If you want a large family, you have to find a way to make a big contribution to society.
Just carrying a gene that confers, say, immunity to heart disease would qualify you, (the gene exists, confined to one little village in Italy), but mostly you'd need to actually do something.
David Brin's Uplift War had all citizens follow strict guidelines about with whom they could have children with based off of both genetics and contributions to society.
380 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:15pm |
re: #375 wozzablog
Happens every so often.
There seems to be a "pissing on the carpet" season, a few people indluge, the erst of us just have to step around it.
Now that you've reminded me... back in a few.
/
381 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:25pm |
re: #377 wozzablog
and can people CUT IT OUT WITH THE DINGS WHEN THIS SHIT HAPPENS.
thnx.
Geez, I was about to upding your comment...
382 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:33:37pm |
re: #378 EmmmieG
Back from the backyard wars. I win. Again. Weeds lose, but some roots remain (mint) and will bide their time until spring.
I just wait for the snow to come.
384 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:34:02pm |
re: #381 wrenchwench
Geez, I was about to upding your comment...
Oh, you can keep dinging me, obviously.
Not that i'm a ding whore or anything............
385 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:36:48pm |
re: #383 windsagio
that's what dinging is for :p
It's pointless and just encourages people who shouldn't be encouraged. It also crystalizes lines where there should be none.
386 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:23pm |
re: #385 wozzablog
what manner of dinging are you talking about? Updinging zingers? Downdinging people being tards?
I think its useful personally, you can learn a lot about people by their post rating habits :p
387 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:27pm |
re: #356 laZardo
I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.
There, I said it.
I don't. I think there are indeed plenty of people hoping for a lot of violence, but the kind of violence done by others that they can watch on television as entertainment. Never by themselves.
388 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:38:59pm |
re: #386 windsagio
what manner of dinging are you talking about? Updinging zingers? Downdinging people being tards?
I think its useful personally, you can learn a lot about people by their post rating habits :p
When it's a pissing contest it's not helpful in the slightest.
389 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:40:05pm |
re: #387 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
The cynic in me ends up always thinking 'nothing will change without some kind of violence', but it more means I'm pretty convinced that nothing much will change.
391 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:40:52pm |
re: #388 wozzablog
When it's a pissing contest it's not helpful in the slightest.
Listen bub, I can write my name in the snow.
392 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:02pm |
re: #388 wozzablog
well again, shows what people *really* think. Folks just have to not get upset on the fact that somebody -'d their post.
393 | The Left Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:43pm |
re: #391 b_sharp
Listen bub, I can write my name in the snow.
And with that, I'm caught up with the thread. Ding!
394 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:41:53pm |
re: #342 Obdicut
I'd have to see the actual math on it, but since West Virginia has 5 electoral votes, about 2 million people, and California has 55 votes with 40 million people, that means that a West Virginian's vote counts about twice what mine does in terms of electoral votes.
So an eyeball of it says that you're wrong, unless you look at it from some very odd perspective.
The point is that the chances that WV's 5 votes will swing the whole outcome are minimal.
In a little test model I just cooked up, where there are 98 states, each like WV, and one CA, as CA goes, so goes the nation, about 87 percent of the time.
So your individual chance of swaying the election is almost equal to the chance that you sway CA, and that's about 1 in 4000, assuming 16 million Californians vote.
Your chance of swaying an election in WV is about 1 in 1000, give or take, so that's four times as big. But WV is more than 4 times as unimportant.
Does that help?
395 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:09pm |
Is FBV here? I wonder if all Veggies do this?
///NSF-well, people
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
396 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:49pm |
re: #389 windsagio
The cynic in me ends up always thinking 'nothing will change without some kind of violence', but it more means I'm pretty convinced that nothing much will change.
Depends on the change. DADT repeal came without violence. In fact, the day came and went with little attention to it. But that's a major shift.
397 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:42:54pm |
re: #392 windsagio
Not the point I'm making.
There are disagreements and flat out rows over shit that are nothing to do with being a good community here.
398 | The Left Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:44:03pm |
BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)
We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.
399 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:02pm |
re: #396 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Depends on the change. DADT repeal came without violence. In fact, the day came and went with little attention to it. But that's a major shift.
I honestly think economic reform is the thing that would take drastic measures. We're naturally winning on a number of the social issues (gays, abortion, drug policy, some aspects of race) and its only a matter of time.
Economic reform is a LOT tougher, it's not just a case of waiting them out.
400 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:42pm |
re: #398 iceweasel
BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)
We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.
We could also use one for breakfast time.:)
401 | Eventual Carrion Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:45:50pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
Yet you know the people that are occupying wall street are not poor, and probably make more money than you. They couldn't be people that no longer have work because some wall street scum took over a business they worked for and shipped it lock, stock, and barrel overseas. Or maybe they are homeless because of some scam of a rich bastard, and are just pissed.
I see YOUR strawman burning.
402 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:13pm |
re: #398 iceweasel
BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)
We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.
I would prefer bingo cards...
403 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:27pm |
re: #397 wozzablog
Not the point I'm making.
There are disagreements and flat out rows over shit that are nothing to do with being a good community here.
Families tend to do that. It just goes to show the range of diversity here, which, in my opinion, is a good thing.
How we recover from the meaningless disputes is more important than that we have them.
Make-up sex is always good.
404 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:46:48pm |
re: #394 lostlakehiker
What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?
You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.
405 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:07pm |
Out for a while.
Need to reacquaint myself with M$ Powerpoint.
406 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:07pm |
re: #398 iceweasel
BTW, I think we need an LGF drinking game. ;)
We should put one together for the debates, and definitely for election night.
The phrase ' cutting Taxes ' Will cause many alcohol poisonings throughout the Land
407 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:12pm |
re: #397 wozzablog
To be honest the problem isn't the comment rating system (all of a sudden I hate the term 'ding', lol). It's a more basic thing that some folks get deeply offended when people disagree with them and go off the deep end.
The problem is 'my way or the highway' not +/-.
408 | The Left Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:20pm |
re: #402 BishopX
I would prefer bingo cards...
That would be cool too. No reason why we can't combine the two!
I think we should do it.
409 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:28pm |
re: #400 Cannadian Club Akbar
We could also use one for breakfast time.:)
Every time someone says Cheerios, snort some orange juice.
410 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:47:47pm |
re: #392 windsagio
well again, shows what people *really* think. Folks just have to not get upset on the fact that somebody -'d their post.
Registering an opinion about bad posts is bad, mmmkay? ;-)
411 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:48:45pm |
re: #409 b_sharp
Every time someone says Cheerios, snort some orange juice.
Well, the little OJ boxes already come with straws....
412 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:48:56pm |
413 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:49:10pm |
re: #407 windsagio
To be honest the problem isn't the comment rating system (all of a sudden I hate the term 'ding', lol). It's a more basic thing that some folks get deeply offended when people disagree with them and go off the deep end.
The problem is 'my way or the highway' not +/-.
Again, not about disagreements.
When it's personalities at the particular kind of play we saw earlier taking sides is not productive by comment rating is not productive in anyway.
414 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:49:36pm |
re: #410 Jimmah
speaking of that, did you see the SP last night?
When did they turn so insanely, intensely bleak?
"Life is shit, it doesn't get better, you have to just go on forever doing the same crap, but maybe, JUST MAYBE drink will get you through the day."
415 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:50:27pm |
417 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:50:51pm |
re: #399 windsagio
I honestly think economic reform is the thing that would take drastic measures. We're naturally winning on a number of the social issues (gays, abortion, drug policy, some aspects of race) and its only a matter of time.
Economic reform is a LOT tougher, it's not just a case of waiting them out.
I wouldn't say we are naturally winning on social issues. All of those changes come with heaps of violence. The rw today are also the ones squealing like pigs because they think they still have a right to gaybash, blackbash, immigrantbash, etc.
I do agree about economics. Though I would add that many of those social issues are often directly tied to economics, i.e., I'm God's favorite so I should have mine and those others should have nothing, or, the government should be clearing paths for me and no one else. That sort of thing.
418 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:22pm |
re: #394 lostlakehiker
I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.
Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?
419 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:29pm |
re: #414 windsagio
speaking of that, did you see the SP last night?
When did they turn so insanely, intensely bleak?
"Life is shit, it doesn't get better, you have to just go on forever doing the same crap, but maybe, JUST MAYBE drink will get you through the day."
Haven't seen it yet - but I've heard stiries about them getting dissilusioned with the whole thing (especially Trey Parker, IIRC).
420 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:51:45pm |
re: #404 Obdicut
What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?
You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.
It's a model, and all models depart from reality, but the idea is to assume that the election is tight, because the nation is evenly divided. Nobody can influence a landslide, after all.
Now, how to model a tight election? Assume that all the voters flip a coin and then vote, except for you. You think it over, and decide.
Now, what are the chances that the election will be tied, and your vote gives your candidate a 1 point lead and so he wins? Slim, but slim in proportion to the square root of the number of voters. This goes back to the binomial distribution, and the fact that the mass is mostly found within one standard deviation.
Think of it like this: ten thousand and one flips of a coin. What is the chance that it's tied 5000-5000, before the last flip? More like 1 in 100, than like 1 in 10000. Or, if you want more accuracy, zero point 8 percent.
421 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:52:06pm |
re: #415 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Rage...building...
Topeka, Kansas City Council Considers Decriminalizing Domestic Violence To Save Money
Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?
422 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:07pm |
re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist
Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?
Not if you're married to them.
423 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:08pm |
re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist
Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?
I regret that I have but one upding, etc.
424 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:37pm |
re: #418 Obdicut
I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.
Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?
Wikipedia, binomial distribution. Or compute C[10000,5000]/2^(10000). Which I just did.
Or Central Limit Theorem.
425 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:38pm |
re: #417 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
You're right of course, the funny thing with social issues is they've actually already been won (well barring disaster), just nobody knows it yet.
You're totally right, I shouldn't in any way lessen the often-violent struggles people have had to go through during the last 50+ years just because we're coasting to victory now.
426 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:53:57pm |
re: #415 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Rage...building...
Topeka, Kansas City Council Considers Decriminalizing Domestic Violence To Save Money
Lovely downtown Topeka.
427 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:54:52pm |
re: #426 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Lovely downtown Topeka.
They need to install some ramps though. Women keep falling down the stairs apparently.
428 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:55:22pm |
429 | allegro Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:58:03pm |
Somehow I suspect that Topeka is still prosecuting drug cases. Smoke a joint? Go to jail. Beat the crap outa your wife, no problem.
Something very wrong with this picture.
430 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 2:58:30pm |
DC rally today....
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
432 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:00:52pm |
re: #421 SanFranciscoZionist
Let me guess. It will still be illegal to beat up Kansas City Council members, though, right?
Unless they are mouthy women.
//
434 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:02:00pm |
re: #420 lostlakehiker
It's a model, and all models depart from reality, but the idea is to assume that the election is tight, because the nation is evenly divided. Nobody can influence a landslide, after all.
Now, how to model a tight election? Assume that all the voters flip a coin and then vote, except for you. You think it over, and decide.
Now, what are the chances that the election will be tied, and your vote gives your candidate a 1 point lead and so he wins? Slim, but slim in proportion to the square root of the number of voters. This goes back to the binomial distribution, and the fact that the mass is mostly found within one standard deviation.
Think of it like this: ten thousand and one flips of a coin. What is the chance that it's tied 5000-5000, before the last flip? More like 1 in 100, than like 1 in 10000. Or, if you want more accuracy, zero point 8 percent.
Isn't this scenario enormously contrived? And in it isn't an individual voter in a small state still far more likely to end up deciding the outcome for their state and thus the election as a whole? In other words, according to your model, doesn't every quadrupling of the population result in a doubling of the odds against any particular vote having a meaningful chance of determining the outcome?
435 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:02:34pm |
Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.
437 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:03:45pm |
"Arm the homeless"
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.
438 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:03:45pm |
Today, House Financial Services Chairman Spencer Bachus (R-AL) — who believes that Washington’s role is to “serve the banks” — said during a hearing that he believes the protests are “misdirected,” and that the protesters should instead come to Washington, DC to protest “job-killing regulations.”
He then placed the corporate dick back in his mouth.
439 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:04:06pm |
re: #435 b_sharp
Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.
General Jack D. Ripper: Mandrake, do you realize that in addition to fluoridating water, why, there are studies underway to fluoridate salt, flour, fruit juices, soup, sugar, milk... ice cream. Ice cream, Mandrake, children's ice cream.
440 | laZardo Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:04:06pm |
re: #435 b_sharp
Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to
toothpastethe water.
Because it already has fluorine. O_O
442 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:18pm |
re: #418 Obdicut
I'm fairly sure, for example, you're off by a factor of at least a thousand in terms of the probability of my vote swaying an election in California.
Is there a place you're getting this from that I could go look at?
Pfft, does he ever provide any references for anything he ever says?
443 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:34pm |
re: #435 b_sharp
Is there a drug that can stop the stupid? If so, it should be added to toothpaste.
Don't try to brane me up on your libruhl chemicals!
444 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:05:51pm |
re: #437 Killgore Trout
"Arm the homeless"
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.
That mentions Goldman Sachs. Wasn't the last gubner of NJ a former GS exec?
445 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:06:25pm |
A message from Anonymous to the 99%
446 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:06:35pm |
re: #404 Obdicut
What is your math on the ability to sway the election? I don't get that at all. Why do I have a 1/4000 chance in California to sway the election with a single vote, and a 1/1000 chance in West Virginia?
You really need to show your math if you want to convince anyone.
Or here's another way to look at it. The technical question is, why is (2n)! divided by n! twice and then divided by 2^(2n) something like 1/square root of n?
Wikipedia, Stirling's approximationreports that m! is approximately given by (square root of 2 Pi m) times (m/e)^m. Simplify that expression at the top and you get 1/sqrt(Pi * n).
447 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:07:08pm |
re: #73 LudwigVanQuixote
One serious observation, and if you read nothing else of mine this thread please note this:
Of course, Occupy Wall Street has a muddled message. It doesn't have the many millions of dollars organizing, shaping and feeding talking points to it from billionaires like the Teaparty does. It doesn't have an entire right wing national network feeding it propaganda and editing its foibles.
not yet. with the news that moveon.org, the larger unions,and the community organizing groups are moving into the occupy movement, the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics.
Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.
[Link: www.pantagraph.com...]
448 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:07:19pm |
re: #446 lostlakehiker
Or here's another way to look at it. The technical question is, why is (2n)! divided by n! twice and then divided by 2^(2n) something like 1/square root of n?
Wikipedia, Stirling's approximationreports that m! is approximately given by (square root of 2 Pi m) times (m/e)^m. Simplify that expression at the top and you get 1/sqrt(Pi * n).
I was told there would be no math.
//
449 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:08:26pm |
re: #430 Killgore Trout
DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Oh, Medea.
450 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:08:45pm |
re: #271 000G
It wasn't so much a "test" as a genuine curiosity. And I never pretend that my knowledge is the end-all and be-all of all things, so when asking I was also open to learn something new.
Sorry for the slow response, but I'm in the middle of work. I'm going to put something right out on the table.
Do you remember this Page? I went to the trouble of finding examples for you and even scanning pages of my English-Arabic dictionary in an effort to try to explain things to you in good faith about how Muslims see things. You brushed it off pretty much dismissing all Muslim scholars in favor of Goldziher by saying that—in your non-Mulsim opinion—he "beat the pants off of any recent Grand Imam of Al-Azhar"
What that meant to me was that you, as a non-Muslim, didn't really give a damn who Muslims might listen to or what they might think WRT their own religion. Maybe that's not what you meant. Maybe it is. Either way it ended further dialog.
Do you remember this one, where I gave up? Did you even realize that I said "You win," not becuase you convinced me of anything, but because I desperately wanted to extricate myself from a debate had become so doggedly drawn out that I'd lost all interest in the subject?
You're obviously an intelligent person, but not everyone enjoys 9-hour debates (like you & Obdi had recently), and sometimes your tone is abrasive—like with the Saudi women Pages—which also puts some people off and kills conversation.
It's a free country and you're obviously free to interact with people here however you please as long as it's within the rules, but if you're truly interested in learning new things, you might want to reconsider your approach to people as one size doesn't fit all when dealing with so many different personalities. Or just disregard what I'm saying since, in the larger scheme of things, it really doesn't matter much who gets annoyed by whom and for what reasons. We can always engage the GAZE.
I have to get back to work now.
451 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:09:20pm |
452 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:09:29pm |
#OccupyWallStreet Photo Diary - See the Change
No violent signs here
Image: 6217725542_a359ebd548_z.jpg
453 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:09:29pm |
[platitude mode on]
OWS is a Rorschach like Obama was. Somebody prefers to see the radical roots. Somebody sees it as a great solution to something or other. In the end both will probably be disappointed.
[off]
454 | William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:27pm |
re: #367 SanFranciscoZionist
Also, Marxists don't make very good casseroles.
Ok, that's funny. Give me Happy Lutherans and a casserole anytime :D
455 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:29pm |
re: #445 Killgore Trout
A message from Anonymous to the 99%
[Video]
Top rated diary at DKOS
We Have Reached a Critical Mass: Powerful Video Message from Anonymous
It's like a magnet. The usual suspects can't stay away.
456 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:10:40pm |
re: #447 Gepetto
Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.
Named...?
457 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:09pm |
re: #454 wlewisiii
Ok, that's funny. Give me Happy Lutherans and a casserole anytime :D
Nobody potlucks like a Methodist! REPRESENT!!!
458 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:37pm |
I see there has been a near-meltdown again.
459 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:11:41pm |
re: #449 SanFranciscoZionist
Oh, Medea.
Heh, I thought some old timers might enjoy seeing her again.
460 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:12:16pm |
I hope zombie has been alerted about the penises. HE/SHE/IT NEEDS TO KNOW!
461 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:14:48pm |
re: #458 Sergey Romanov
I see there has been a near-meltdown again.
I steered clear, and intend to go on doing so.
462 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:14:51pm |
re: #308 Obdicut
I was talking with a Chinese friend of mine about the way that the modern Chinese party repudiations 'actions' of Mao without repudiating Mao's ideology at all. It's kind of fascinating.
Mao is to be repudiated for when he didn't act Mao enough?
463 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:15:15pm |
re: #424 lostlakehiker
The fact that you're already constraining this to a close election is admitting that the scenario you're talking about is not an all-inclusive one.
Are you talking about a probability distribution function?
Or are you just referring to the fact that the larger the number of samples, the more perfect the distribution will eventually be? As in, if you were the nine billionth voter there's be a much stronger chance that the distribution was closer to the underlying probability?
You also appear to be treating every vote as if it is the final vote. Do you get that?
464 | makeitstop Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:02pm |
Okay, I think I'll go have a beer. Catch up with y'all later. Rage nicely.
465 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:12pm |
re: #325 SanFranciscoZionist
I assume it can't go back earlier than Stalin--OR CAN IT???
I've seen some people recently begrudgingly having to disavow Lenin and even Trotsky as well.
There's always Marx, though. For all his shortcomings, he never held office.
466 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:29pm |
re: #434 goddamnedfrank
Isn't this scenario enormously contrived? And in it isn't an individual voter in a small state still far more likely to end up deciding the outcome for their state and thus the election as a whole? In other words, according to your model, doesn't every quadrupling of the population result in a doubling of the odds against any particular vote having a meaningful chance of determining the outcome?
The voter is indeed twice as likely to swing HIS OWN state, if his state is four times as small. But the chances that his STATE swings the whole election are reduced by a greater factor, for being small.
So when all is said and done, if you want to swing the national election, move to a big state. (Move to a big state where both parties are competitive, if we want to ratchet up the realism. )
Yes, my scenario is over simplified. But is it really that bad a thumbnail portrait of the reality? Big states are so big that a close national election is very likely to end up coming down to California. Or Texas. Or Florida or NY. But CA is the biggest of all, and WV is small in any model. As it is in reality.
467 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:18:34pm |
re: #168 iossarian
If someone had just woken up from a coma and asked you which party to vote for, in order to help fix both government and Wall Street, what would you say?
whichever one is not under the influence of wall street. that would be neither. Whichever one is not behind NAFTA or pushing new free trade agreements. that, too, would be neither.
Occupy K Street!
468 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:22:40pm |
469 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:09pm |
re: #463 Obdicut
The fact that you're already constraining this to a close election is admitting that the scenario you're talking about is not an all-inclusive one.
Are you talking about a probability distribution function?
Or are you just referring to the fact that the larger the number of samples, the more perfect the distribution will eventually be? As in, if you were the nine billionth voter there's be a much stronger chance that the distribution was closer to the underlying probability?
You also appear to be treating every vote as if it is the final vote. Do you get that?
You asked for the math. I gave it. Of course, if an election is a tie save 1, then every last voter who voted for the winner can be seen as the deciding vote. So, what does it matter who votes last?
The original question, how much influence do I have, seems to me to come down to this: what are the chances that the national result would have been different if I had gone into that booth and voted differently, all else held the same, in an election where the general sense going in was that it's going to be tight? (If it's not going to be tight, then no one anywhere has any chance that their vote, all else held equal, might have decided it.)
You are good at debate. If you work at it, you can "win" this conversation. But I know my profession. You might ask Ludwig if I'm making sense.
470 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:21pm |
re: #356 laZardo
When does violence become "significant"?
471 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:26pm |
re: #189 engineer dog
steve jobs never whined about how high taxes and regulations were creating an "anti business climate", and nothing in "gummint" kept him from creating the most innovative products and one of the most profitable companies in this country in the past 30 years
Most companies aren't whining. They've got us just where they want us. If you are behind the Occupy movement, Steve Jobs is an unusual pick for hero, paying himself a dollar a year in income so he could take the lower capital gains rate, and outsourcing billions of dollars in wages to china because billions of dollars in wages buys so much more labor over there.
472 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:23:35pm |
re: #430 Killgore Trout
DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
at least they have the right town
473 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:24:16pm |
re: #359 wozzablog
The last sentence being the real reason the world isn't Communist, not American military might or spending power of the late '80s.
Factionism killed off Marxism? Really?
474 | Charles Johnson Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:25:08pm |
re: #460 Jimmah
I hope zombie has been alerted about the penises. HE/SHE/IT NEEDS TO KNOW!
Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.
475 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:00pm |
re: #461 SanFranciscoZionist
I steered clear, and intend to go on doing so.
I noticed it doesn't help sometimes. ;)
476 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:17pm |
477 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:35pm |
re: #203 iossarian
we've done the best with a president of one party and control of congress going to the other party. but we need more damn parties.
478 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:26:51pm |
479 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:27:34pm |
re: #458 Sergey Romanov
I see there has been a near-meltdown again.
The containment vessel wasn't breached. No radiation leaked. Well, not much.
STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!
/
480 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:27:56pm |
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
“I am deeply troubled by the flippancy with which President Obama recently discussed regulations that are alarming and troublesome for many Americans,” said Rep. Paul (R-Texas). “Not all Americans are comfortable with the Obama administration’s decision to mandate coverage of birth control and morning-after pills, and the considerations of these people, many of them Christian conservatives, are worthy of careful consideration — not mockery.” [...]
“Many, like me, view this rigid regulatory overstep from which there is inadequate opportunity to self-exempt as payback to Planned Parenthood and big pharmaceutical companies for their support of Obamacare,” Paul said. “Many others oppose it out of strict moral conviction, and their voices should be heard at least to the extent that an authentic opportunity to exempt be provided.”
481 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:28:33pm |
re: #356 laZardo
I firmly believe that there will be significant violence before any significant reform is made.
There, I said it.
And I disagree. This is not like abolition, a question that must be settled by the sword. It's not even as contentious as the Vietnam war.
It's a big country, and surely, somewhere, two men in a bar will dispute the matter, it'll come to blows, they'll be told to take it outside, and outside, somebody will pull a knife or a gun and kill somebody. That's significant to both of them, but that sort of thing is not of national significance.
Whichever side loses, on this point or that, will accept the reality and try to win some other point, or win a modified and watered down version of what it really wanted in whole. Or just try again. All of it in the political and cultural realm. ---again, apart from bar fights and other such relatively insignificant violence.
482 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:13pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
And more of the mask falls off.
He's just an isolationist Republican, circa 1920.
He's a Socon, except on Pot.
483 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:34pm |
re: #479 Varek Raith
The containment vessel wasn't breached. No radiation leaked. Well, not much.
STOP PERSECUTING ME!!!
/
*stern look*
484 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:29:59pm |
re: #475 Sergey Romanov
I noticed it doesn't help sometimes. ;)
It's kind of cool, knowing that I was offered a chance to tip the whole thread over a cliff, and didn't feel the need.
485 | Mostly sane, most of the time. Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:30:05pm |
I was going to say something about Solon and the revising of Greek laws, but I have to go to the dentist.
So much for my great thoughts.
486 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:30:35pm |
GOP Congressman: Purchasing healthcare is like buying a vacation home when you're in debt already
Congress should not proceed to implement new, incredibly expensive entailment programs at a time when our Country’s credit rating has been downgraded, we are threatened with another downgrade, we are trying to save the entitlement programs already in place, we are going bankrupt, and we continue to receive warnings from every quarter that our current path is unsustainable.
American families know this. To use a simple analogy, they know that if they are deeply in debt and cannot afford to pay the loans on their home and car, they should not buy an expensive vacation home.”
487 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:31:34pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
I know you're just the messenger, but your posts are not good for my mood.
488 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:32:27pm |
re: #487 wrenchwench
I know you're just the messenger, but your posts are not good for my mood.
489 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:33:09pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
LIBERTY!
490 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:33:18pm |
re: #459 Killgore Trout
Heh, I thought some old timers might enjoy seeing her again.
She's always good for a two minutes hate, and seems to revel in this.
Well, bully for her, I guess.
491 | BongCrodny Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:33:47pm |
re: #437 Killgore Trout
"Arm the homeless"
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't think that's a very good idea.
Hobo With A Shotgun!
492 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:26pm |
re: #491 BongCrodny
Is that worth watching btw?
493 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:34pm |
re: #474 Charles
Andrew Breitbart's all over that story.
Gaah.
Btw I've approached the N.E.A. regarding the installation of a special new art work at Monticello:
494 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:50pm |
so this is where the Apple logo icon originated...interesting
[Link: www.cnn.com...]
495 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:34:53pm |
496 | The Left Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:05pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
it's uter-US, not uter-YOU!
The US must occupy the uteri!
497 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:43pm |
re: #471 Gepetto
Most companies aren't whining. They've got us just where they want us. If you are behind the Occupy movement, Steve Jobs is an unusual pick for hero, paying himself a dollar a year in income so he could take the lower capital gains rate, and outsourcing billions of dollars in wages to china because billions of dollars in wages buys so much more labor over there.
People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.
498 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:35:53pm |
499 | Aye Pod Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:37:00pm |
re: #484 SanFranciscoZionist
It's kind of cool, knowing that I was offered a chance to tip the whole thread over a cliff, and didn't feel the need.
Let us approach thee, that we may bathe in thy light ;-)
500 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:38:07pm |
re: #497 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.
why would they?...Jobs was no hero that I know of....unless you stretch the definition to whatever you want it to mean
501 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:09pm |
re: #430 Killgore Trout
DC rally today...
anti-capitalism
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Code Pink
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
Military Paulians
[Link: www.daylife.com...]
I don't know if it's fair to characterize the mocking of capitalists as anti-capitalist. Not really doubting the last one but that looks like Anonymous "members" to me. Where do you get the Paulian angle? Also, just one guy in a military jacket.
502 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:22pm |
re: #469 lostlakehiker
You asked for the math. I gave it.
No, you didn't. You referenced a wikipedia page about an entire area of mathematics. Do you not know what 'show your math' means?
Look at it this way: what if there were 10,000 people total going to the polls in your state, including you? What are the chances of you being the 'deciding' vote then?
503 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:22pm |
504 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:39:51pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
Stupid confederate.
505 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:41:01pm |
Ohio’s new law allowing concealed guns into bars took effect last week. Bar and restaurant owners naturally view the law as a pain in the butt, and given a recent mishap, they have good reason to. The Columbus Dispatch reports that Ohio barber Kurt Voelkel got a bullet in his butt after his customer’s “9 mm handgun fell from his holster, struck the ground and went off.” The bullet “passed through the chair where Voelkel was sitting and also went through his wallet before coming to rest deep in his buttocks.” He spent more than two hours at the hospital, where doctors opted to leave the bullet where it is. The customer was just “adjusting his clothing and sitting down” when the gun fell; presumably alcohol was not involved. It’s hard to see how adding it into the mix will prevent this or worse situations from occurring.
506 | darthstar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:41:38pm |
ha!Y'all are a bunch of mushrooms!
(kidding...some of you are walnuts)
507 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:33pm |
re: #501 000G
I don't know if it's fair to characterize the mocking of capitalists as anti-capitalist. Not really doubting the last one but that looks like Anonymous "members" to me. Where do you get the Paulian angle? Also, just one guy in a military jacket.
...creeeeping
commies....
508 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:44pm |
re: #499 Jimmah
Let us approach thee, that we may bathe in thy light ;-)
I touched the hem of her garment and got a static shock.. It could have been the carpet...then again it could have been a miracle.. I'm keeping my options open..
/Hi SFZ! :)
509 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:42:53pm |
510 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:43:05pm |
re: #496 iceweasel
it's uter-US, not uter-YOU!
The US must occupy the uteri!
Ron Paul is the Wombshifter.
511 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:43:52pm |
re: #509 Cannadian Club Akbar
Drinking and guns. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait...
not the case...I have not heard where you can CC and drink
512 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:08pm |
re: #509 Cannadian Club Akbar
Drinking and guns. What could possibly go wrong? Oh, wait...
Drinking while driving = BAD.
Drinking while packing heat = GOOD.
Oy.
513 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:21pm |
514 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:44:25pm |
515 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:08pm |
re: #511 albusteve
not the case...I have not heard where you can CC and drink
Ohio.
Ohio’s new law allowing concealed guns into bars took effect last week. Bar and restaurant owners
Are they on the honor system that they won't drink.
;)
516 | Atlas Fails Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:26pm |
I'm actually starting to change my opinion on OWS. I still can't get behind that goofy list of demands, but it's important to note that those demands were only proposed, not accepted, and were unofficial anyway. With the support of major labor unions and their leaders and the blessing of the President, it's looking more and more like young unemployed people and disenfranchised working stiffs, and less like a coalition of ANSWER-type freaks. I'm still a little skeptical, but my overall feelings about the movement have shifted from negative to cautiously optimistic.
Oh, and they can spell.
517 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:35pm |
518 | William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:45:40pm |
re: #505 Varek Raith
Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.
519 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:46:41pm |
re: #518 wlewisiii
Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.
I was wondering about that.
Thanks for the clarification.
520 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:46:43pm |
re: #515 Varek Raith
Ohio.
Are they on the honor system that they won't drink.
;)
well that's foolish....guns and honor systems are a recipe for failure...every law I've heard of restricts the alcohol, as it should
521 | Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:02pm |
re: #518 wlewisiii
Upding for booger hook!!! HAHAHAHA!!!
522 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:22pm |
re: #518 wlewisiii
Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.
QFT
Firearms don't just "go off" even if dropped. That story sounded better than "I was just a complete dumbshit".
523 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:31pm |
re: #520 albusteve
well that's foolish...guns and honor systems are a recipe for failure...every law I've heard of restricts the alcohol, as it should
We're dumb as hell sometimes.
It makes my head hurt.
524 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:49pm |
re: #516 Atlas Fails
I changed my opinion from "don't give a fuck" to "don't give much of a fuck". Mostly due to the things the opponents say and write. Because if they say and write such things, OWS must not be that bad.
525 | BongCrodny Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:47:58pm |
526 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:49:29pm |
re: #445 Killgore Trout
A message from Anonymous to the 99%
[Video]
Top rated diary at DKOS
We Have Reached a Critical Mass: Powerful Video Message from Anonymous
Heh. Wish I could take that more seriously, what with all of the poetry and the daunting soundtrack. But then the mood gets destroyed with 4chan lingo at the end. Enh.
Alex Jones has a lot of drama and pathos in his latest video advertising his latest stunt of highjacking the currents of populism, too. His soundtrack sucks in comparison, though:
527 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:49:39pm |
528 | The Left Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:50:15pm |
re: #517 BishopX
I've made a page so everyone can contribute ideas for "squares".
I'm thinking for columns we use:
- Racism
- Tax-Memes
- Religious hatred
- Anti-Science "facts"
- charges of corruption
Awesome!
Now the all important question: the centre square?
An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).
529 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:51:54pm |
Bank Lobbyists kill foreclosure regulation efforts in CA
As one of the epicenters of the foreclosure crisis, Californians by the tens of thousands have lost their homes. In most cases, banks have repossessed houses without bothering to re-negotiate interest payments to find foreclosure alternatives. And in a growing number of cases, “robo-signers” have allegedly forged documents and illegally foreclosed on borrowers. Since the foreclosure crisis is leading towards a spiraling decrease in home property values across the state, nearly everyone is affected.
A common sense idea to add transparency and accountability to the mortgage market died a quick death earlier this year. State Sen. Mark Leno (D-San Francisco) and State Sen. Darrell Steinberg (D-Sacramento) proposed SB729, a measure “to require banks to give people a definitive answer on loan modification, identify who owns the loan, and give borrowers legal recourse if banks don’t take these steps.”
The idea, embraced by consumer advocates and many foreclosure experts, did not even make it out of committee. State Sen. Juan Vargas (D-San Diego), the chairman of the banking committee, joined two Republican state senators in snuffing the bill. State Sen. Alex Padilla (D-Los Angeles) abstained from the vote, ensuring a 3-3 split (a tied vote does not allow the bill to proceed). Despite moving testimony from victims of foreclosure fraud and persuasive academic opinion, the bill died. To understand why, simply follow the money:
– Bank of America, a leading mortgage-lender in California, spent $173,703 lobbying this year in Sacramento. Disclosure reports show Bank of America hired lobbying firms like Nielsen Merksamer and Government Relations Counsel to kill SB729. Reports also show that Bank of America treated Vargas to dinner at the Ella Dining Room and Bar about a month after he voted to kill the foreclosure mitigation bill. Bank of America has contributed $5,500 in campaign contributions to Vargas and nearly $2,000 to Padilla.– The California Mortgage Bankers Association, a lobbying group representing a number of mortgage lenders in the state, spent $55,711 lobbying in Sacramento this year. The bankers hired KP Public Affairs, a firm that doubles as the general counsel for the association, to help kill SB729. The group donated $4,000 to Vargas and $1,000 to Padilla recently.
– Wells Fargo spent $84,027 lobbying in Sacramento, and hired a firmed called Knudsen & Associates to help kill SB729. Wells Fargo has contributed $2,800 to Padilla and $2,000 to Vargas. Disclosure reports show agents for Wells Fargo took a state senator out to lunch shortly after the SB729 vote, but the disclosure forms appear to be incomplete because the name of the senator is not filled in.
530 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:14pm |
re: #497 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
People are mourning Steve Jobs, though I don't see anybody in the OWS heroizing him.
i'm sad about it too. lots in the movement here are attaching it to the movement, tho.
531 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:23pm |
re: #522 rwdflynavy
QFT
Firearms don't just "go off" even if dropped. That story sounded better than "I was just a complete dumbshit".
Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?
532 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:52:45pm |
re: #527 Killgore Trout
I still haven't seen that yet. It looked really fun.
Its not. Think Toxic Avenger or any of the other old Troma films, but with a political message slapped onto it.
533 | jamesfirecat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:11pm |
re: #379 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
David Brin's Uplift War had all citizens follow strict guidelines about with whom they could have children with based off of both genetics and contributions to society.
Wait a moment it's been a while since I've read all those books, but as I recall it was only the recently uplifted species that were undergoing that sort of breeding guidelines so as to further the process of a successful uplift to create the most intelligent neo-chimps/dolphins/dogs I don't recall humans or any other non client race having to deal with similar rules...
534 | Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:16pm |
re: #531 HoosierHoops
Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?
Fucking guns, how do they work?
//
535 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:54:21pm |
re: #529 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Well, we now know that CA state legislators are cheaper to buy than Gov. Perry.
536 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:55:10pm |
I love capitalism and the free market.
The big banks don't.
Neither does the oil industry.
Or the insurance industry.
Or...ah fuck it.
;)
537 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:55:48pm |
re: #518 wlewisiii
Er, I'm having an extremely difficult time seeing how this could have happened as described. I don't know of any 9mm on the market right now that will just "go off" from being dropped from a height of 1 or 2 feet. This may be the official line that they gave the cops (who in turn gave it to the media) but I can just about bet you that someone was dicking around with the safety off and his booger hook where it didn't belong.
It shouldn't happen but it's not unheard of.
In the Jan. 2000 report the P229 was tested in 9mm and .40 calibers. The SP2340 was tested in 357 SIG caliber, which produces the highest pressures and demands the most from the pistol launching platform. Interestingly enough, the P229 passed the 9mm test and failed the .40 test due to trigger problems and failing one of the drop tests.
There's also nothing in the article to state that it's a modern market produced pistol. There's been a lot of issued and unissued Walther P38's hitting the import market lately.
538 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:10pm |
re: #536 Varek Raith
I love capitalism and the free market.
The big banks don't.
Neither does the oil industry.
Or the insurance industry.
Or...ah fuck it.
;)
You are a Marxist and should be maced.
539 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:41pm |
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
540 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:56:54pm |
re: #447 Gepetto
not yet. with the news that moveon.org, the larger unions,and the community organizing groups are moving into the occupy movement, the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics.
Also worth noting is a mega billionaire using his pet project to shake up the heart of an economic system to "make things better for the common man". This maneuver has worked brilliantly for him in the past, filling his pockets with loot every time he's run this hustle.
[Link: www.pantagraph.com...]
I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:
541 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:57:28pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
she's gone?...so sorry bro
542 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:05pm |
re: #524 Sergey Romanov
I changed my opinion from "don't give a fuck" to "don't give much of a fuck". Mostly due to the things the opponents say and write. Because if they say and write such things, OWS must not be that bad.
I'm glad/Schadenfreude young women in green hats with bear ears have them clutching their guns and bank statements.
Doesn't take much with those cowards.
543 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:27pm |
re: #534 rwdflynavy
Fucking guns, how do they work?
//
LOL
And he had it in the waist band of a running suit...OK Who goes to a fancy Nightclub in NYC in a jogging outfit? When was the last time you tried that?
544 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:58:48pm |
re: #533 jamesfirecat
Wait a moment it's been a while since I've read all those books, but as I recall it was only the recently uplifted species that were undergoing that sort of breeding guidelines so as to further the process of a successful uplift to create the most intelligent neo-chimps/dolphins/dogs I don't recall humans or any other non client race having to deal with similar rules...
They mention humans still need to get genetic counseling and permission before having children and certain behavior would prevent them from being allowed.
545 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:05pm |
Lol.
"The actual tea party was a fucking felony! ... Did you know what the tea party actually was?"
546 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:16pm |
re: #543 HoosierHoops
LOL
And he had it in the waist band of a running suit...OK Who goes to a fancy Nightclub in NYC in a jogging outfit? When was the last time you tried that?
he's special....22mo worth
547 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 3:59:41pm |
re: #530 Gepetto
i'm sad about it too. lots in the movement here are attaching it to the movement, tho.
I missed that part. Who has done that? Where is "here"?
548 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:04pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
I'm so sorry, a_b. So sorry.
549 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:35pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
Big hug.
Was this unexpected?
550 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:01:59pm |
re: #540 000G
I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:
Lol I love that screenshot.
551 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:02:16pm |
re: #541 albusteve
she's gone?...so sorry bro
Thanks, Steve.
We are burying her with Dad in the big Bone Orchard in Arlington. But get this- the earliest open date for the Chapel at Fort Myer is January 4th. So she'll be in the cooler for three months. Which is macabre.
552 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:02:44pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
{{{austin_blue}}}
553 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:03:39pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
Oh, man. Losing a parent is always tough. I'm sorry. {{{austin_blue}}}
554 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:03:57pm |
re: #549 SanFranciscoZionist
Big hug.
Was this unexpected?
No. End stage dementia. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I were up in Bawlmer this weekend to see her. We said our goodbyes and came home.
555 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:04:03pm |
re: #551 austin_blue
Thanks, Steve.
We are burying her with Dad in the big Bone Orchard in Arlington. But get this- the earliest open date for the Chapel at Fort Myer is January 4th. So she'll be in the cooler for three months. Which is macabre.
in my family we get incinerated and tossed onto a golf course or whatever...absolutely no funerals
556 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:04:04pm |
557 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:05:28pm |
558 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:05:57pm |
re: #528 iceweasel
An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).
Obama (and the bulk of African-Americans who are just as "mixed" as he is) reminds white conservatives about their history of anti-miscegenation laws: why they imposed them, and why they are still livid and seething over them having been overturned.
559 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:06:09pm |
561 | William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:06:44pm |
re: #531 HoosierHoops
Perhaps the funniest story is when Plaxico went to a NYC Nghtclub..With a 9mm loaded with a shell in the chamber and the Safety off.. Then somehow he shoots himself...
How does that happen?
Wasn't he carrying a Glock? It's very easy to have a negligent discharge of a Glock if you are not aware of what you're doing. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of the design.
562 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:07:42pm |
re: #554 austin_blue
No. End stage dementia. She Who Must Be Obeyed and I were up in Bawlmer this weekend to see her. We said our goodbyes and came home.
That's such a hard situation. Even when it's expected, it doesn't lessen the impact.
563 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:08:29pm |
re: #561 wlewisiii
Wasn't he carrying a Glock? It's very easy to have a negligent discharge of a Glock if you are not aware of what you're doing. It's one of the main reasons I'm not a fan of the design.
it would not have mattered if it was a bazooka...Burris is about as stupid as a human being can be
564 | Lidane Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:08:38pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
Oh wow. I'm sorry to hear that. My sincere condolences. :(
565 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:01pm |
re: #560 Varek Raith
Sorry austin_blue.
Thanks, VR. But it's been a long time coming. I'm hanging in there. Had a nice little cry when my baby sister called me with the news, but Death comes for us all.
566 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:41pm |
567 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:09:43pm |
re: #555 albusteve
in my family we get incinerated and tossed onto a golf course or whatever...absolutely no funerals
I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan
568 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:10:07pm |
By chance found this comment at dkos:
I'm a registered Republican. Heh heh heh. (0+ / 0-)
At the moment.
Because I can waste some Republicans' time.
I used to politely say "No, thank you" to people calling me for Republican causes and conservative causes.
Then one day I got inspired when an earnest young man called me with a spiel about a particularly awful Republican candidate. I realized that the more of his time I took up, the fewer calls he could make. So I told him how interesting I found his comments, but there were some things I didn't understand and asked him dumb question after dumb question. I took up about a half hour of his time.
A couple of hours later, I got a call from a pleasant-sounding woman supporting an anti-woman position I find particularly awful, and I listened to her, and asked some dumb questions, and some questions that sounded dumb but actually forced her to think through her position. Acting as if I was confused about some issues myself, I brought up different scenarios and asked her how she thought difficult situations should be handled. She actually really thought about them and realized that she wasn't as sure of her position as she thought she was.
In the past, pleasant and understanding as I try to be, I don't think I've ever changed anyone's mind by arguing with them.
But now my family members and some of my friends are doing this. It's become the favorite recreation of one of my sisters. "Now what's the name of that man with that...um...hair that...well, it kind of looks like he's got some animal sitting on his head? Tromp? Oh, Trump. Yes. What does he think about it?"
"Oh, I had no idea President Obama was a Muslim. Didn't I see him and his family attending a Christian church on the news? Or was that a different black family? They kind of look alike, do you know what I mean? I thought they said it was the President. Does he have one of those....oh, dear, what do you call them....the little carpets you get down and pray on? I've never seen that on the news. Does he do that in the Oval Office? Well, I'd like to know. Could you call me back if you find out? We usually eat dinner between five and six, and I go to physical therapy at two, so between 3:30 and 4:30 would be best."
"Kenyan, you say? Oh, my. I thought....didn't I see a copy of his full Hawaiian birth certificate on TV? Hawaii is a state, isn't it? I think I remember when it became a state. Or was that Alaska? I'm sure it wasn't Puerto Rico. No, I really think it was Hawaii that became a state and that I read that birth certificate on TV. Are you sure? Does that mean Arnold Schwarzenegger can't run for President?"
Maybe the amount of Republican time we manage to waste isn't all that significant, but maybe every little bit counts.
Every year I try to crochet enough warm hats for everyone who eats at the soup kitchen near our home. Since the number of hungry people keeps going up, it's become a large task, although by this time I could do it in my sleep. This year I'm trying to make 180. (I start in January.) So I just keep my yarn and crochet hook by the telephone, so when I get nut calls, I turn out hats while listening to political nonsense and asking questions.
Since I changed my party affiliation, I get calls every day. When I'm called for polls, I'm enthusiastic about the dumbest, low-numbers candidates Republican candidates, and if asked how Obama is doing I give him the highest rating. Since I am a (transient) Republican, I hope that messes with Republican minds.
I'll need to be working real hard on those hats over the next month, huh?
"Oh, ma'am, I'd cast my ballot for Newt Gingrich a hundred times if I could. Is there some way I could do that? Where in the Constitution does it say that, do you know?"
Love,
Elizabeth
by Old Gardener on Thu Oct 06, 2011 at 03:58:01 PM PDT
569 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:10:32pm |
re: #450 CuriousLurker
Sorry for the slow response, but I'm in the middle of work. I'm going to put something right out on the table.
Do you remember this Page? I went to the trouble of finding examples for you and even scanning pages of my English-Arabic dictionary in an effort to try to explain things to you in good faith about how Muslims see things. You brushed it off pretty much dismissing all Muslim scholars in favor of Goldziher by saying that—in your non-Mulsim opinion—he "beat the pants off of any recent Grand Imam of Al-Azhar"
What that meant to me was that you, as a non-Muslim, didn't really give a damn who Muslims might listen to or what they might think WRT their own religion. Maybe that's not what you meant. Maybe it is. Either way it ended further dialog.
I still don't get what your problem is. When I want to know something about Islam, I refer to the scholars who have studied the issue. Preferably those doing so with scholarly standards and not a religious agenda – and yes, Goldziher is coryphaeus of scholars of Islam and in that regard beats the pants off any religious authority of Islam (a judgement which, btw, does not depend on my non-muslim opinion but is predicated on a simple acknowledgement of the primacy of academia in epistemic matters – it has nothing to do with "being" Muslim, something Goldziher has written about extensively, btw).
And when I want to know Muslims, I will talk to Muslims. But those are two different things.
Do you remember this one, where I gave up? Did you even realize that I said "You win," not becuase you convinced me of anything, but because I desperately wanted to extricate myself from a debate had become so doggedly drawn out that I'd lost all interest in the subject?
No idea how I should have realized that. I usually choose to err on the side of caution but maintain awareness of my own guesswork being just that.
You're obviously an intelligent person, but not everyone enjoys 9-hour debates (like you & Obdi had recently), and sometimes your tone is abrasive—like with the Saudi women Pages—which also puts some people off and kills conversation.
That's okay.
It's a free country and you're obviously free to interact with people here however you please as long as it's within the rules, but if you're truly interested in learning new things, you might want to reconsider your approach to people as one size doesn't fit all when dealing with so many different personalities.
It's a free internet. I am learning a lot.
570 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:11:00pm |
re: #567 HoosierHoops
I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan
You always cheer me up! Going to Dallas?
571 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:12:51pm |
An interesting interview with the man who invented the Occupy Wall Street protests....
"We Are Creating a Tahrir Moment": Adbusters Editor Kalle Lasn on the Magazine's Role in Igniting the Occupy Wall Street Protests
No matter which side of the issue you're on I think it's an interesting read. Here are some highlights.
We've always talked about cultural revolution, and we've also been mightily inspired by the Situationists who back in 1968 were able to, with their philosophies and their aesthetics and with their very special view of what was happening — the "society of the spectacle" — were able to instigate what many people called the first global revolution, when the Paris uprising reverberated around the world.
...
We have corporate power at its zenith. And the financial people and the cooperate lobbies in Washington have basically turned all of America into a corporate state. The whole planet is becoming Planet Inc.
...
I basically believe we have to reinvent the global economy and the global economic system. And this movement that is starting now, this Occupy Wall Street movement which will likely spread and gather more strength on October 6th, when they have that big moment in Washington and on October 15 with some big actions planned in Europe, and hopefully on November 4th when the G20 leaders meet in France — we could very well have another global mind-shift moment similar to what the Situationists pulled off in '68, when millions of people erupted around the world. We could have people demanding a 1 percent "Robin Hood Tax" on all financial transactions, along with all kinds of other demands. It could be the moment when we the people take change and say that we don't like what our leaders are doing anymore.
That bolded part is hard to interpret but I think he's hoping that the usual G20 riots will erupt globally.
He has some interesting ideas on economics and I'm personally very anti-consumerist myself. However, I won't be joining his movement.
572 | Lidane Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:13:08pm |
Let me tell y'all what it's like
Being male, middle-class and white...
Man, Goodhair has it tough. At least that's what Lindsey Graham tells me:
[Link: thinkprogress.org...]
573 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:13:55pm |
re: #453 Sergey Romanov
The eternally sameself prophecy of the cynic. ;-)
574 | Only The Lurker Knows Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:14:12pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
My condolences. Lost my Sister back in June. :-(
575 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:14:23pm |
re: #562 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
That's such a hard situation. Even when it's expected, it doesn't lessen the impact.
you are exactly right about that, judging from my own experience...I prepared myself for a year and when my dad died promptly went into shock for a few weeks
576 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:15:36pm |
re: #570 austin_blue
You always cheer me up! Going to Dallas?
Kind regards..
I'm going to the Moose Lodge at 10am Saturday for the game..It's a big pot luck with booze, Big Screen TV's and lots of crazy Football fans..
I'm planning to go to Jerry's House in Dallas this year...9th wonder of the world I hear..
577 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:15:37pm |
re: #567 HoosierHoops
I always told the kids if they find me dead in a compromising situation..Feel free to toss me into a nearby Dumpster, Wipe the joint clean and then call 911 and report me missing..
/Always have a plan
"all you girls outa here, now!"
578 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:01pm |
re: #462 000G
Mao is to be repudiated for when he didn't act Mao enough?
Which btw sounds a lot like conservatives talk about Reagan and try to explain away his unconservative behavior.
579 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:17pm |
re: #571 Killgore Trout
For those not familiar with the Situationists....
The Situationist International (SI) was a restricted group of international revolutionaries founded in 1957, and which had its peak in its influence on the unprecedented general strike of May 1968 in France.
With their ideas rooted in Marxism and the 20th century European artistic avant-gardes, they advocated experiences of life being alternative to those admitted by the capitalist order,
No surprise there.
580 | prairiefire Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:17pm |
re: #539 austin_blue
Afternoon, all. Hope you are well.
My mom stepped on a rainbow yesterday. I hope she's in a better place, but still...
I'm sorry for your loss, Austin Blue.
581 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:16:55pm |
582 | Varek Raith Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:17:33pm |
re: #581 albusteve
why?...what's up?
(snort)
Cheer up, they were winning big for a little bit in that game.
;)
583 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:17:35pm |
re: #574 Bubblehead II
My condolences. Lost my Sister back in June. :-(
It's one thing to lose a parent to dementia at 83, quite another to lose a sib. Condolences backatcha.
584 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:18:54pm |
re: #569 000G
I still don't get what your problem is.
My problem is that I don't have the patience to try figure out a way to communicate with you in a way that I can derive any intellectual pleasure or satisfaction from. So I'll simply stop interacting with you. No harm no foul—can't get along with everyone. Problem solved.
586 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:19:42pm |
re: #553 CuriousLurker
Oh, man. Losing a parent is always tough. I'm sorry. {{{austin_blue}}}
Thanks, CL. My best to you and yours.
587 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:19:46pm |
re: #582 Varek Raith
Cheer up, they were winning big for a little bit in that game.
;)
the Lions game?...just another heart attack for me...have you ever seen a more complete team for one half?...no, never...I tell ya, I just shake my head and mope
588 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:21:48pm |
re: #480 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
Ron Paul: Greater Access To Birth Control Makes A ‘Mockery’ Of Christians
Heh. Wonder how many potheads pay enough attention to realize that they have been worshipping a conservative?
589 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:22:55pm |
re: #584 CuriousLurker
My problem is that I don't have the patience to try figure out a way to communicate with you in a way that I can derive any intellectual pleasure or satisfaction from. So I'll simply stop interacting with you. No harm no foul—can't get along with everyone. Problem solved.
Alrighty then.
590 | zora Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:12pm |
re: #572 Lidane
if lindsey graham has been intimidated for being a white man in the south for his whole life. i have to believe that his intimidaters thought he was a lesbian. that's the only way this makes sense. or he could just be a liar.
591 | William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:42pm |
re: #587 albusteve
the Lions game?...just another heart attack for me...have you ever seen a more complete team for one half?...no, never...I tell ya, I just shake my head and mope
Right now I just want Detroit & Green Bat to keep winning. I want to be able to take a break from deer hunting this fall and scream at a TV showing the biggest football game of the season instead of the usual meaningless Thanksgiving Day game.
592 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:23:43pm |
593 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:24:23pm |
re: #575 albusteve
you are exactly right about that, judging from my own experience...I prepared myself for a year and when my dad died promptly went into shock for a few weeks
Yeah, I was called upon to help out my father with dementia after years and years of estrangement. I did it for 4 years, despite our bad history.
When he passed in 2010, well...it's still difficult. You never know how it will affect you until it actually happens.
595 | William Barnett-Lewis Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:24:47pm |
re: #588 000G
Heh. Wonder how many potheads pay enough attention to realize that they have been worshipping a conservative?
None of them. They really don't care about anything else. Even sillier than the Goldbugs that way but much less dangerous.
596 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:27:08pm |
re: #591 wlewisiii
Right now I just want Detroit & Green Bat to keep winning. I want to be able to take a break from deer hunting this fall and scream at a TV showing the biggest football game of the season instead of the usual meaningless Thanksgiving Day game.
I'm a Michigander, but a Cowboy fan...I'm long tired of the great Thanksgiving Day Lions game being a throwaway...I'm thrilled for the fans...but looking back, the fucking Lions have beat the CBs many times when they shouldn't have...if both teams keep winning, the GB/Lions game will be epic...I love it
597 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:30:34pm |
re: #590 zora
if lindsey graham has been intimidated for being a white man in the south for his whole life. i have to believe that his intimidaters thought he was a lesbian.
And even that would be ruled out unless he is a transgendered one who now identifies as hetero.
But this is Lindsey Graham we're talking about, who gets gaybaited by even his own party.
that's the only way this makes sense. or he could just be a liar.
It's very trendy these days for white conservatives to count themselves as victims because they're no longer allowed to legally victimize others. It really does boil down to all that.
598 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:31:10pm |
Slowly but surely, we are developing the means for Human 2.0 :
'Genetic biopsy' of human eggs might help pick the best for IVF
Given the stakes of in vitro fertilization, prospective parents and their doctors need the best information they can get about the eggs they will extract, attempt to fertilize, and implant. New research at Brown University and Women & Infants Hospital of Rhode Island has found a way to see which genes each egg cell is expressing without harming it. As researchers learn more about how those genes affect embryo development, the new technique could ultimately give parents and doctors a preview of which eggs are likely to make the most viable embryos.
[...]
599 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:32:36pm |
re: #596 albusteve
I'm a Michigander, but a Cowboy fan...I'm long tired of the great Thanksgiving Day Lions game being a throwaway...I'm thrilled for the fans...but looking back, the fucking Lions have beat the CBs many times when they shouldn't have...if both teams keep winning, the GB/Lions game will be epic...I love it
Thanksgiving football has evolved into a meaningless football day..
I say the first game should be a rematch of the Superbowl
the second game can be the Lions for tradition sake
third game? Please something America will watch
600 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:35:12pm |
601 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:35:33pm |
Scientists create faster DNA analyzer: What does it mean for us?
Wouldn't it be great if there were a machine that could help diagnose a patient before a doctor even has a chance to sit down? A new report suggests such a machine might arrive sooner than its sci-fi sound of it suggests.
Engineers at in Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory in Livermore, Calif., have developed a DNA analyzer that can process samples in minutes, instead of a half hour. The machine takes the tiniest sample and sequences DNA from it by a process called a polymerase chain reaction (PCR). It's the same process behind forensic tests for crimes, paternity tests, and tests looking for genetic diseases.
[...]
Some in the medical profession are afraid of patients learning about their own DNA and are behind a move to make consumer genetic testing illegal without a doctor's involvement. Yet the real possibility exists that within just a few years a full DNA sequencing could become cheap enough for many Americans to afford.
602 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:36:55pm |
re: #600 000G
Really sad.
Amazing what a couple of thousand dollars and a free lunch can accomplish.
603 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:37:12pm |
re: #599 HoosierHoops
Thanksgiving football has evolved into a meaningless football day..
I say the first game should be a rematch of the Superbowl
the second game can be the Lions for tradition sake
third game? Please something America will watch
Thanksgiving belongs to the Lions...they invented it...Dallas agreed to make it a daylong event....Thanksgiving 1966 was the first time I ever saw the CBs on tv, the first time for the double game...I was hooked, and the rest is history
604 | Achilles Tang Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:37:22pm |
re: #588 000G
“Many others oppose it (birth control) out of strict moral conviction, and their voices should be heard at least to the extent that an authentic opportunity to exempt be provided.”
Want to be exempt? Don't use birth control and save the system that cost for you.
Crazy or not, I didn't think Ron Paul was stupid, in the usual sense anyway.
605 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:38:08pm |
606 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:38:18pm |
re: #526 000G
Just skimmed through it - the pompous verbiage makes me puke.
607 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:39:15pm |
re: #601 freetoken
Scientists create faster DNA analyzer: What does it mean for us?
Some in the medical profession are afraid of patients learning about their own DNA and are behind a move to make consumer genetic testing illegal without a doctor's involvement. Yet the real possibility exists that within just a few years a full DNA sequencing could become cheap enough for many Americans to afford.
might even exonerate you from a crime....duh
608 | Achilles Tang Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:42:05pm |
re: #598 freetoken
Slowly but surely, we are developing the means for Human 2.0 :
'Genetic biopsy' of human eggs might help pick the best for IVF
I'm waiting for the shit to hit the fan when the usual suspects notice the word in this sentence.
What's the breakthrough? Scientists say they've successfully cloned a human embryo that can create customized stem cells.
609 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:43:59pm |
re: #608 Naso Tang
I'm waiting for the shit to hit the fan when the usual suspects notice the word in this sentence.
we need primate type humans to pick tomatoes and blow leaves...this is gonna be big, really big
611 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:44:50pm |
re: #568 Sergey Romanov
By chance found this comment at dkos:
Heh. Asking dumb questions: the Socratic Method.
No wonder he was sentenced to death. ///
612 | BongCrodny Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:45:29pm |
I'm going to go on a bit of a rant here; I hope everybody will bear with me.
A few weeks ago, I found myself faced with the unpleasant option of having to apply for the Food Supplement Program. The powers that be in D.C. had seen fit to suspend my unemployment benefits; at the time I applied I had no income and no savings.
When I was at the FSP office, there were maybe about 40-50 people there, all waiting patiently (emphasis on "patiently" -- although there was the one guy who kept talking about how it was fucked up that a person could trespass on his property and he had to shoot him in the leg, for crying out loud) for their turn with a caseworker.
Of the 40-50 or so people there, there were a number of people with kids; mostly what appeared to be either single mothers or moms with kids whose husbands were either working or, possibly, sitting at home while the wife went out to apply for the benefits.
What really broke my heart was there were maybe a half-dozen to a dozen people significantly older than me, some of whom looked lost and confused, like they had absolutely no understanding of the circumstances that caused them to be there looking for "a handout."
Maybe these folks (and I include myself here) are leeches. What I saw -- and maybe my interpretation of this is incorrect -- was that the vast majority of these people are just trying to feed their kids or maybe just trying to keep the wolf from the door or maybe even just trying to keep cat food off the dinner table. Most of these people were inordinately patient, spending upwards of three hours to get (in my case) a food supplement of $150 that's supposed to last a full month. Most of the "customers" there were extremely polite, offering their seats to the older folks.
Maybe some people do abuse the safety net; maybe it's even epidemic. I can only talk about what I saw the one time I was there, and what I saw sure didn't seem overly fraudulent.
No amount of "growing the pie" is going to improve people's lives if there's no pie left by the time it gets to them.
For what it's worth, the unemployment compensation issue was resolved in my favor. I've now got a little money in my checking account and, although I'm eligible for further food supplements, I won't be asking again until I'm completely out of options. But should that happen, I won't in the slightest be embarrassed to take advantage of that option if I'm needy.
But that's not to say everyone should feel the same way: as a single man, I don't have to worry about kids' clothing or vaccinations or school expenses or any of the dozens of things a laid-off family man (or woman) has to worry about.
I'll always feel that one of the greatest things this country has done for its citizens is the social safety net, and no amount of hand-wringing and crocodile tears about millionaires "already paying more than their fair share" is ever going to make me feel any different.
[/rant]
613 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:50:22pm |
re: #606 Sergey Romanov
Just skimmed through it - the pompous verbiage makes me puke.
But creeping communism!
/eyeroll
Forget Black grandmas like Shirley Sherrod. This is what the rw are running frightened of this week, people putting autotuned fake British accented videos on youtube in the Citizens United age.
Absurd.
614 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:52:41pm |
re: #613 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
But creeping communism!
/eyeroll
Forget Black grandmas like Shirley Sherrod. This is what the rw are running frightened of this week, people putting autotuned fake British accented videos on youtube in the Citizens United age.
Absurd.
Now, now. You should always watch out for that Communism creep. It will sneak up on you behind your back and BAM! Sharia.
615 | Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:53:10pm |
re: #612 BongCrodny
During the 2008 campaign the president-to-be dropped a one-liner I have used since 1962: "It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. It is the duty of the weak to become strong". Don't know where I picked up such an idea but I was religious then, and reading a lot of commies.
616 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:53:58pm |
re: #579 Killgore Trout
For those not familiar with the Situationists...
No surprise there.
Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…
617 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:54:13pm |
re: #612 BongCrodny
Maybe these folks (and I include myself here) are leeches.
Doubtful. They are probably working stiffs who paid into a system and are now drawing on what they paid into when they need it.
It's called an insurance program for a reason. This is one of the reasons WHY we pay taxes.
618 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:55:11pm |
re: #612 BongCrodny
Your situation reflects what is happening to millions of people around this country, those who used to have a job but now can find no home for them in the World of Work, as it used to be called.
BTW, unemployment claims went up slightly last week, though the number of net jobs being created is still positive. There is a very large pool of those without work who are not on the official unemployment rolls who are now (as Christmas season approaches) start looking for work.
The good news is that some economic indicators (shipping, retail sales) are improving.
619 | Achilles Tang Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:56:26pm |
re: #612 BongCrodny
Yes, although as a landlord (struggling to make it worthwhile when it is impossible to sell out) I have seen my share of those on assistance. Some are the nicest people in the world, but I could name more than a few who rip off the system, the landlord, and anyone else who comes too close.
620 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:56:34pm |
re: #616 000G
What about post-Soviet Russian democrats?
621 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:57:12pm |
re: #614 Sergey Romanov
Now, now. You should always watch out for that Communism creep. It will sneak up on you behind your back and BAM! Sharia.
And Zionism.
Homogay and race-mixing, too.
It's all very French.
622 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:58:17pm |
re: #605 albusteve
so, who drives the bus?...ask yourself that
The bus driver.
There, that was easy.
623 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 4:59:38pm |
re: #620 Sergey Romanov
What about post-Soviet Russian democrats?
Mh. Collapse of Soviet Union was a game changer. Pretty much ended the 20th century, kinda like 1968 ended the 70s. ;-)
624 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:00:47pm |
re: #623 000G
I'll let you off the hook for this one. /
625 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:01:09pm |
re: #579 Killgore Trout
For those not familiar with the Situationists...
No surprise there.
the Situationist's philosophy was kind of... diffuse and not really well formed... but one idea of theirs that i like is that what is presented to us as conflicting political points of view and political conflict is a "spectacle" - designed to distract us while the real business is conducted just out of view
they were against the idea of people being presented with media-defined 'choices' that served merely to make them passive spectators and consumers in a commercial market created reality
627 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:03:24pm |
re: #616 000G
Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…
Not really. The Civil Rights movement -- the one with the most visible impact -- predates Marxism by nearly a century.
See also: A.M.E. Church
628 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:03:57pm |
re: #612 BongCrodny
Well said. I know it couldn't have been easy to put yourself out there like that. There is no shame whatsoever in needing help—even the healthiest, wealthiest, most educated & secure among us is only a disaster, accident, or catastrophic illness away from needing help themselves (whether they realize it or not).
Thanks for reminding me that I need to be more patient when I feel a snark attack or the urge to generalize coming on...we aren't always aware of what other members are going through and how that might have a big impact not only on what they say, but also on what they hear & feel when we say something.
{{BongCrodny}}}
629 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:31pm |
One of my friends here got Thyroid Cancer (Found out today. Been very busy here with school and stuff).
How terminal is it? Is the prognosis better than, say, Pancreatic? It was found recently.
630 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:47pm |
re: #627 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Not really. The Civil Rights movement -- the one with the most visible impact -- predates Marxism by nearly a century.
See also: A.M.E. Church/
Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.
Russian-American Imperialists! //
631 | Killgore Trout Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:04:54pm |
re: #616 000G
Pretty much every non-conservative movement of the 20th century (with some anarchist exceptions) was somehow rooted in Marxism. Heck, even the Surrealists were largely communist…
Well, i guess most people don't seem very bothered by it anymore. I just thought the philosophy of the protest organizers might be of interest.
632 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:05:15pm |
re: #528 iceweasel
Awesome!
Now the all important question: the centre square?An easy one would be the racism category, charges that Obama is too black/not really black. (the number one and two problems the right has with Obama).
Sorry for the delay (dinner) I think scandal (which replaces charges of corruption) will be the center row. That way the moonbats can contribute as well. Center tile will probably be sex scandal or sex scandal rumors, unless something better comes out.
633 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:06:37pm |
re: #622 000G
The bus driver.
There, that was easy.
the same response you'd get from 90% of the voters....the fact that the feds and WS have wrecked their precarious lives cuts into DWTS, and until the masses wake up, the OWS gig will seem pretty insignificant to me...the vast power, the tap to riches or the breadline, the most powerful gesture in America, is the vote...but you need to be smart to pull it off and we are not that...Americans are elsewhere in the reality world of celebrity worship
634 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:07:24pm |
re: #631 Killgore Trout
I just can't see our American society resonating to much of the ideology of those whom you've identified as the protest organizers.
635 | laZardo Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:07:50pm |
re: #633 albusteve
...so who's going to stop Wall Street if it's not the feds?
And if it can't be stopped, why complain?
636 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:08:27pm |
re: #631 Killgore Trout
Well, i guess most people don't seem very bothered by it anymore. I just thought the philosophy of the protest organizers might be of interest.
Oh, it is, fret not.
Old school commie-baiting efforts went out of style with pedal pushers and bouffant hairstyles, though.
637 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:08:36pm |
re: #635 laZardo
...so who's going to stop Wall Street if it's not the feds?
And if it can't be stopped, why complain?
not sure what you are implying
638 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:10:02pm |
re: #631 Killgore Trout
I think it's been pretty well established that the ANSWER and Absuster guys are extremists.
But the protest itself, is not extreme. It's more incoherent than anything else, but it's certainly not a Marxist protest.
I think it is very important to note that there are actual revolutionaries who actually want to use protests like this to overthrow the system.
However, I think the likelihood of them doing so-- or even the likelihood of recruiting significant numbers of people to their cause-- is very low.
They're going to great lengths, the organizers, to pretend that they're kind of 'apolotical'. While this means that a lot of people who would reject them if they knew who they were come to the protests, it also means that those people can't really be said to be following them or influenced by them.
639 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:10:10pm |
re: #636 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
Oh, it is, fret not.
Old school commie-baiting efforts went out of style with pedal pushers and bouffant hairstyles, though.
Pedal pushers are out of style? :(
Oh, the pants! :)
640 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:11:21pm |
re: #629 ProLifeLiberal
My wife says 'usually very treatable', obviously depends when they caught it.
Nothing at all like pancreatic.
641 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:12:53pm |
re: #639 wrenchwench
Pedal pushers are out of style? :(
Oh, the pants! :)
I've been fiddling with a Pompadour lately...I'm getting closer
642 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:14:30pm |
re: #640 Obdicut
That's good news to hear.
I've been hearing of the declining health of my grandfather. I was afraid of losing other people.
643 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:14:51pm |
re: #630 000G
Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.
Russian-American Imperialists! //
Stalin's Negro Soviet Republic!!!
It's a plot!
644 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:15:26pm |
re: #638 Obdicut
I think the protests are far beyond the ability of the initial organizers to control, its the flip side of the social media bit.
645 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:16:33pm |
re: #631 Killgore Trout
Sure is. But how significant is it?
The Worker's movement in Germany came to be politically represented largely by the Social Democrats (SPD). They were firmly marxist from the 1890s on. That started changing mostly in the Weimar Republic, when they were competing against the Communists for the votes of the workers (a bitter fight only interrupted, not ended, by Hitler, I believe). It was only in 1959 that they officially stopped endorsing Marxism. West Germany had been a reality already for 10 years. Had Marxism ever significantly influenced SPD politics in government? Hardly. If anything, it helped spawn spinoff movements that actually took Marx seriously and wanted to go down the dogmatic path.
646 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:16:53pm |
re: #630 000G
Okay, free passes for Americans, too, then.
Russian-American Imperialists! //
[Link: tinyurl.com...]
647 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:25pm |
darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ...so where is WS exactly?
648 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:29pm |
re: #633 albusteve
the same response you'd get from 90% of the voters...the fact that the feds and WS have wrecked their precarious lives cuts into DWTS, and until the masses wake up, the OWS gig will seem pretty insignificant to me...the vast power, the tap to riches or the breadline, the most powerful gesture in America, is the vote...but you need to be smart to pull it off and we are not that...Americans are elsewhere in the reality world of celebrity worship
Dude, I am not an American. And your screed reads like coming from a generic Infowarrior.
649 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:29pm |
WallBuilders Enlists Christopher Columbus & Reconstructionist Eidsmoe in Christian Nation Crusade
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]
The dogwhistle of Christianity plus white destiny is getting louder. This Eidsmoe guy is a total piece of work.
Note that while the RWW article focuses on the Wallbuilder's invocation of Columbus as guided by the Holy Spirit--who presumably told him the Taino would be far happier as mine slaves--but also Hernando fricking Cortez. You know, the guy who wrote long letters about "I'm totally conquering the Aztecs so I can rule New Spain and also GOLD."
650 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:17:56pm |
there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.
651 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:18:39pm |
re: #648 000G
Dude, I am not an American. And your screed reads like coming from a generic Infowarrior.
is that cool or what?
652 | bratwurst Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:02pm |
re: #647 albusteve
darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ
I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!
[Link: www.kob.com...]
653 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:14pm |
re: #647 albusteve
it seems to be filtering down from the bigger cities to the smaller ones.
Even to the point of Occupy Seattle being a few days before Occupy Portland was.
654 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:14pm |
re: #644 windsagio
I'm going to try to do some polling of people when I'm there tomorrow, if I feel good enough.
This weekend is supposed to be beautiful, so I expect it to be lively over the weekend as well.
655 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:19:28pm |
re: #650 windsagio
there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.
CREEPING SHARIA MARXIST ANARCHISM IS JUST AROUND THE CORNER!!!
656 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:20:29pm |
re: #641 albusteve
I've been fiddling with a Pompadour lately...I'm getting closer
Pony tail is the only way to go.
Actually, mine is braided today.
657 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:21:05pm |
re: #652 bratwurst
I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!
[Link: www.kob.com...]
I really don't know...but I'm having fun regardless
658 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:21:17pm |
re: #654 Obdicut
I was actually gonna go down today to the one in PDX, but the weather is ugly and I was a bit concerned about the police :p
(unless they got their permitting worked out there was GOING to be a problem, should probably look it up actually)
659 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:01pm |
660 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:12pm |
re: #655 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)
It's well worth noting that they ABSOLUTELY insisted that there was communist, or at least soviet backing behind the Civil Rights Movement too.
Its kind of a sad cliche at this point.
661 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:32pm |
re: #656 wrenchwench
Pony tail is the only way to go.
Actually, mine is braided today.
Number 3 clippers, number 5 for the top, faded in.
Letting it grow out for winter.
662 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:22:49pm |
re: #649 The Ghost of a Flea
The "white destiny" theme, as you've termed it, is indeed struggling to become unshackled by the need to be PC. That's why I've been PaleoPat's theme this past month with openly criticizing one-man one-vote democracy, etc. The whole neo-confederate pile wants to come out of the closet.
663 | Cheechako Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:23:22pm |
Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.
664 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:23:53pm |
re: #652 bratwurst
I am over a thousand miles away and even I know you are wrong!
[Link: www.kob.com...]
Wow. 200 is big for Albuquerque.
Albuquerque police blocked traffic while marchers chanted "Whose street - our street,” as they abandoned sidewalks and walked Central Avenue alongside traffic.
The police blocked the street! Arrest them!
665 | Big Joe Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:03pm |
re: #656 wrenchwench
Pony tail is the only way to go.
Actually, mine is braided today.
I had a ponytail until it couldn't hide my bald spot. Now I cut my own hair with a #2 attachment. I haven't been to a barber since the early 80s.
666 | Digital Display Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:03pm |
re: #653 windsagio
it seems to be filtering down from the bigger cities to the smaller ones.
Even to the point of Occupy Seattle being a few days before Occupy Portland was.
Well then the Capitalist better get on the ball and start selling Knit hats, protest signs and spray paint ASAP to the small cities..
667 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:09pm |
re: #656 wrenchwench
Pony tail is the only way to go.
Actually, mine is braided today.
been there long ago...another month and it all gets shaved off
668 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:24pm |
herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators
add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'
669 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:25pm |
I'm checking in with the "Occupy SF" website.
Clicked on the live streaming feed to look at the demo.
It began by playing me a Zappos ad.
Facepalm, people, facepalm.
670 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:26pm |
re: #649 The Ghost of a Flea
WallBuilders Enlists Christopher Columbus & Reconstructionist Eidsmoe in Christian Nation Crusade
[Link: www.rightwingwatch.org...]
The dogwhistle of Christianity plus white destiny is getting louder. This Eidsmoe guy is a total piece of work.
One of the best people to ask about Eidsmoe would be Anita Hill, as she was faculty at Oral Roberts University at the same time as Michele Bachmann.
I still want to know if MB took any classes with her. I think it's funny that neither person is saying...
671 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:24:44pm |
re: #663 Cheechako
Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.
I think its a safe bet to say they'll do everything in their power to derail it before it picks up even more steam.
672 | freetoken Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:25:38pm |
re: #663 Cheechako
I perceive that the OWS is trying to tap into the same market of disenfranchisement that the Tea Partying organizers have tapped - the huge pool of unemployed and underwater (with houses, cars, college debt etc.) Americans who are losing their way in our economy and are afraid (rightly, I might add) of becoming permanently poor.
673 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:02pm |
re: #663 Cheechako
Until the OWS establishes some meaningful goals and ideas I don't think they will get very far. It is interesting to note that the RW media talkers are working very hard to dismiss the OWS movement. I get the impression they don't want this movement to get established as they are perceiving OWS as a threat to RW ideals.
Yeah, but they perceive EVERYTHING as a threat to RW ideals.
One thing to bear in mind is that the RWNJ crowd has a vested interest in promoting the demos and making them seem not only scary, but SIGNIFICANT.
674 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:06pm |
re: #669 SanFranciscoZionist
I'm checking in with the "Occupy SF" website.
Clicked on the live streaming feed to look at the demo.
It began by playing me a Zappos ad.
Facepalm, people, facepalm.
It's because it's "Livestream". Occupy SF didn't put the ad there. Livestream did.
675 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:26:15pm |
funny stuff from a liveblog about the Portland event (source)
3:30 pm: Still a very white crowd. People still in the streets at SW Broadway and Morrison, but MAX and cars passing through.
5 pm: Looks like the occupation will be from Salmon to Madison between Southwest 3rd and 4th in two parks. People are starting to leave if they're not camping. An officer Helfrich says, "I don't think they're gonna stay overnight. Not once it starts raining." He says ultimately it's probably up to the mayor.
5:19: A group of hula hoopers seem to be the first to claim a spot in alpha camp.
676 | wrenchwench Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:07pm |
re: #665 mracb
I had a ponytail until it couldn't hide my bald spot. Now I cut my own hair with a #2 attachment. I haven't been to a barber since the early 80s.
The last haircut I paid for was to one of my mechanics, who cuts all his friends' hair for $2.00 each. I saved a braid. I think I have four now, not counting the one that's still attached.
677 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:07pm |
re: #647 albusteve
darn...there doesn't seem to be a WS protest here in ABQ...so where is WS exactly?
[Link: www.dailylobo.com...]
[Link: www.kob.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]
678 | goddamnedfrank Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:27:46pm |
re: #668 engineer dog
herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators
add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'
On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.
679 | Kragar Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:07pm |
re: #673 SanFranciscoZionist
Yeah, but they perceive EVERYTHING as a threat to RW ideals.
One thing to bear in mind is that the RWNJ crowd has a vested interest in promoting the demos and making them seem not only scary, but SIGNIFICANT.
The laughable band of disorganized highly trained and disciplined nazi hippies.
680 | recusancy Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:29pm |
re: #678 goddamnedfrank
On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.
Wow.
681 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:48pm |
re: #650 windsagio
there's absolutely zero chance of a marxist or anarchist organziation or even ethos to get any real power in the USA.
The left-liberal groups the white right loves to hate -- < a href="[Link: news.google.com...]>including the NAACP -- all had anti-commie purges in the 50s.
Someone should have informed the White Citzens Councils, KKK and other white conservatives crying integration=communism. lol
682 | albusteve Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:58pm |
re: #677 000G
[Link: www.dailylobo.com...]
[Link: www.kob.com...][Link: www.google.com...]
[Link: www.google.com...]
lol!
683 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:28:58pm |
re: #678 goddamnedfrank
posted the other day, but kind of relevant, and damn funny
(left off the end... Robert: "I wish you'd brought your raincoat!")
684 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:30:04pm |
re: #674 recusancy
It's because it's "Livestream". Occupy SF didn't put the ad there. Livestream did.
I understand that part.
685 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:30:14pm |
re: #662 freetoken
It's funny how the Communists didn't like elections, but the anti-Communists don't seem to like them that much, either.
686 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:32:29pm |
re: #681 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
a lot of things equalled communism back in those days.
Hell, in Iran free elections apparently=communism!
What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.
687 | engineer cat Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:33:11pm |
re: #678 goddamnedfrank
On Lawrence's show on MSNBC Cain just said it wouldn't have been prudent for him to have engaged in the civil rights movement.
dear mr cain,
the conservative movement has spent many millions of dollars crafting subtle and plausible denials, evasions, and outright lies
please get in contact with the koch bros, karl rove, or some other representative so that you can bring your evasions and other rhetorical dodges and misrepresentations up to an acceptable level
thank you
688 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:34:37pm |
Actually, an acquaintance of mine is organizing a protest in Norman tomorrow at the OU campus.
Again, I kinda support the concept, but I want them to be more organized, and more forward-thinking, and less knee-jerky.
689 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:35:23pm |
re: #688 ProLifeLiberal
to be honest I think its more important to get people out and establish a presence than to have some deeply organized agenda.
690 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:35:51pm |
re: #686 windsagio
It's really not the drop of a hat. The protests really, really were organized by Adbusters, who really, really do make common cause with communists on many issues. This is nothing like the Birchers claiming Marxists were behind the Civil Rights Movement.
It's funny; I'm very anti-consumerist myself, but Adbusters just rubs me all sorts of wrong ways, from the very inception that began it all.
691 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:36:35pm |
re: #668 engineer dog
herman cain explains that by "unemployed people' - who he said should blame themselves and not wall st - he means the OWS demonstrators
add this to the conservative lexicon where we have already found out that 'submission' means 'respect'
Would that be under the Bachmann Marriage Files?
Seriously, though, there are people at LGF who will fingerwag at you exactly that see comments #mid 200s.
All of BDSM is based on this concept. I don't know why social conservatives consider it to be sexual deviance, since it's based on their own social norms.
692 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:37:47pm |
re: #690 Obdicut
I get that, really, and I agree they're obnoxious, but I just don't think that the communism of some backers is in any way significant.
That aspect of it just doesn't matter.
And yet its a huge fixation (not necessarily with you Ob, but with a surprising number of people)
693 | Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:39:34pm |
re: #685 000G
It's funny how the Communists didn't like elections, but the anti-Communists don't seem to like them that much, either.
Sergey Dovlatov's aphorism: "After communists, most of all I hate anti-communists".
694 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:40:14pm |
re: #689 windsagio
Maybe, but the goal should be to do Nordic-Style Reforms.
Because we know they work. At the very least, they are a starting point.
695 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:40:25pm |
I'm watching their footage from yesterday.
696 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:00pm |
re: #692 windsagio
If who organized the protests doesn't matter, then why does who organized the Tea Party protests, or who organized anything?
Do you think it never, ever matters who organized something?
697 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:29pm |
re: #686 windsagio
What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.
It works among the confederates who believe "freedom" means "I get to do whatever the fuck I want to you, and not you or anyone else has a right to do about it."
Those are the ones who trot out the threat of communism whenever someone else asserts their own rights.
Basic states rights mentality.
698 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:29pm |
re: #629 ProLifeLiberal
One of my friends here got Thyroid Cancer (Found out today. Been very busy here with school and stuff).
How terminal is it? Is the prognosis better than, say, Pancreatic? It was found recently.
Very treatable. Pancreatic is a death sentence.
699 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:41:53pm |
re: #696 Obdicut
TP organizers were very successful in setting and pursuing a specific agenda.
This is clearly not the case with the 'Occupy' crowd :p
Edit: And I didn't say who the backers was wasn't important, I said the backers purported communism wasn't important. Significant difference.
700 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:42:13pm |
re: #693 Sergey Romanov
Sergey Dovlatov's aphorism: "After communists, most of all I hate anti-communists".
Sounds like a person to look up. Thanks, Sergey!
701 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:43:05pm |
re: #691 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
All of BDSM is based on this concept. I don't know why social conservatives consider it to be sexual deviance, since it's based on their own social norms.
Probably because of the C in SSC.
702 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:44:09pm |
re: #698 austin_blue
Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?
I remember seeing something in Discover some years ago about how that someone with Autism may have a lesser chance of getting cancer. When I go back to COS, I'll have to find it.
704 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:44:31pm |
Am back.
"Man Defeats PowerPoint presentation at start of 36 hour day".
They shall write songs of this day and assure my entry to Stovokor.
705 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:45:11pm |
re: #702 ProLifeLiberal
Thyroid reacts easily and quickly to things that won't kill you outright.
Also you can cut most or not all if it out and not die.
706 | ProGunLiberal Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:46:02pm |
re: #705 windsagio
Ok, that's a bit more understandable.
707 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:49:00pm |
re: #705 windsagio
One of my moms had her thyroid out 7? years ago. Not a big deal at all.
708 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:50:05pm |
re: #707 BishopX
yeah that's why I know about it too, my Mom used to spend her summers downstream from Hanford, and ran into some thyroid problems of her own a few decades back.
709 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:51:25pm |
re: #703 windsagio
Fundie BDSM would be kinda... hot.
There is indeed a fetish for everything, no doubt.
710 | austin_blue Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:52:42pm |
re: #702 ProLifeLiberal
Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?
I remember seeing something in Discover some years ago about how that someone with Autism may have a lesser chance of getting cancer. When I go back to COS, I'll have to find it.
Thyroid = slow growing, not very metastatic. Also, you can live without your thyroid gland with chemical replacements (no fun, but doable).
Pancreatic = fast growing, highly metastatic, and invariably lethal.
711 | CuriousLurker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:55:07pm |
re: #698 austin_blue
Very treatable. Pancreatic is a death sentence.
Life is a death sentence.
Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.
Later, lizards.
712 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:56:23pm |
re: #686 windsagio
a lot of things equalled communism back in those days.
Hell, in Iran free elections apparently=communism!
What bugs me is that the threat/claim of communism has been one of the biggest rhetorical tools to destroy freedom and democracy in the 20th century... and people still bring it out at the drop of a hat.
My favorite uncle was a member of the Marxist Party in India, right after Partition. We've talked a great deal about why he joined up, and honestly I was quite rough with him...my position colored by knowledge of the USSR, and the other "communist" nations. As I've got older I've come to realize that were I in his position--on the ground and with twenty years of awareness of the British bilking people and stamping out questioning of the system in place--I'd probably do the same thing.
Stratch that position about the "threat of communism" and typically you'll find a total lack of interest in the impact of colonialism and similar parasite-economies in the 19th and 20th century, or how the circulation of Marxism and its variants is a response to "capitalism" playing out not as Adam Smith's vision, but as a giant exploitation system. When people talk about communism destroying freedom and democracy...well, communism picked up and continued an existing tradition of squashing people's self-determination firmly in place--they just perfumed their self-serving actions with a different ideological system (...that was used very selectively, ignoring any components that might inhibit them).
713 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 5:56:54pm |
re: #702 ProLifeLiberal
Out of curiosity, how come Thyroid can be so easily treated as compared to Pancreatic?
I can't say with any specifics but 1- like any cancer, it depends on when each is caught and 2- the function of each within the endocrine system.
If it gives any comfort, a very close friend of mine was diagnosed with thyroid cancer in 1990. She had had cancer as a child so this was her 2nd bout with it. She's now a prof in the UC system. So there is hope...it won't be easy for your friend. But it is very likely "it will get better."
714 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:01:57pm |
re: #712 The Ghost of a Flea
Pretty much.
My family were/all are Trots or Marxists.
Both sets of Grandparents grew up at a time of massive social deprevation and with an uncaring state system and no state provision of services.
The alternative to Marxism was Oswald Mosely and his black shirt fascist thugs.
I'm positively glad they are Marxists.
715 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:03:11pm |
re: #699 windsagio
TP organizers were very successful in setting and pursuing a specific agenda.
This is clearly not the case with the 'Occupy' crowd :p
I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.
I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.
I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.
716 | Obdicut Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:04:25pm |
re: #714 wozzablog
A lot of people forget how Marxism originated, and that in most of the places where Marxism was an inspiration, it was quickly moderated and adapted.
717 | SanFranciscoZionist Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:05:07pm |
re: #711 CuriousLurker
Life is a death sentence.
Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.
Later, lizards.
How I got into this predicament, I'll never know. Absolutely incredible. To be executed for a crime I never committed. Of course, isn't all mankind in the same boat? Isn't all mankind ultimately executed for a crime it never committed?
The difference is that all men go eventually, but I go six o'clock tomorrow morning.
718 | Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:05:15pm |
re: #615 Decatur Deb
During the 2008 campaign the president-to-be dropped a one-liner I have used since 1962: "It is the duty of the strong to help the weak. It is the duty of the weak to become strong". Don't know where I picked up such an idea but I was religious then, and reading a lot of commies.
Ha. Found a likely source--and it comes from the religious side, not the commies.
Sermons preached in the King's weigh-house chapel, London, 1829-1869
By Thomas Binney
[Link: books.google.com...]
719 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:09:08pm |
re: #712 The Ghost of a Flea
I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.
For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?
For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.
720 | Decatur Deb Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:11:37pm |
re: #719 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.
For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?
For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.
Walmart is (or was) the most important trading partner of the largest surviving Communist government.
721 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:12:21pm |
re: #719 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
I just don't trust any kind of commie-baiting coming from people in the US.
For one, there is plenty to despise about communist or state-capitalist systems like Stalinist Russia, People's Republic of China and Vietnam, or any other of the rwnj bugbears, all on their own. But they make all these computers all of us are typing on, as well as all the clothes we're wearing while doing the typing. They've also had most favored nation status from us for..how long?
For two, commie/pinko baiting against "leftys" is never on behalf of the "leftys" for their sake. Never.
The best economies in the world are run on a basis to the left of the American one.
Scandinavia and Australia both doing better. UK is doing better in terms of unemployment and just anounced more central bank stimulus.
722 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:12:37pm |
re: #715 Obdicut
I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.
I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.
I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.
Well the theme I get out of the TP is 'no taxes, no social programs, states rights!' which is both open-ended, but also strongly on point. It also serves a particular part of the populace VERY VERY WELL, and that group coincides with the TP backers pretty well.
I get what you're saying tho'... maybe the issue is that conservatives are so used to being narrowcast and focusing on these issues that they didn't need that much control/direction. I think the difference with OWS is that there's not this long history of closely focused discipline and media presentation, the American left is notoriously unorganized.
~~~
In another way you're totally right on, the backers of the TP are just as much a side-issue as the clowns in hats and wigs. Its easy for me (and probably everybody) to get all worked up about astroturfing, but that's not really the point.
The important thing is the negative things the organization promotes and does, not who is behind it.
Of course I just now came to this realization, heh.
In comparison the point (such as it is) of the Occupy movement I think is essentially positive and that's what's important.
723 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:15:39pm |
re: #715 Obdicut
I don't actually think the Tea Party dudes had that specific an agenda, really. They followed, I'd say, whatever got presented to them by the right-wing media.
I think one difference is the remarkable consistency of the right-wing, the odd, nervous way it coalesces around whatever latest outrage or issue is. What I'm not clear on is whether the lack of that in the OWS stuff is due to a lower competency level among people like Adbusters in getting their message memed out, or whether those on the left are actually more resistant to such consensus and stuff. It'd be nice to think it was the latter.
I don't think Adbusters could be accurately described as Marxist, though. They make common cause with some Marxists. But they're more... abstract. I dunno.
What freaked/freaks me out about the Tea Party is the way the message is constructed, directed, and marketed by moneyed individuals and interests groups--the people who created the message are speaking out of conviction, but are casting self-beneficial policy as rooted in principle. Getting individuals Tea Partiers to pick up talking points was a matter of marketing to their niche. The funny thing is that was stage one...as the people who "bought" the marketed product were them used as endorsements to create a larger marketing campaign.
It's like a kayfabe fight being used to start a real one.
I don't like Adbusters or ANSWER (the former are just noxious; the latter broke their plate by being stupid enough to back Hamas and Hezbollah), but I don't get the impression that they're marketing OWS in a similar cynical fashion. Their message sucks, but they're being honest about what their message is and to what end they pursue it. The other thing is that the crowd is not being handled and managed in a similar fashion to Tea Partiers so that everyone stays on-message.
724 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:17:20pm |
re: #722 windsagio
Corporate person hood, 0% corporate taxes, abolishing/auditing the fed, shrink govt to the size of a postage stamp - these are the polar opposite views of the 99%/OWS protest and yet it's THOSE views that are mainstream *boggles*
726 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:19:22pm |
re: #721 wozzablog
The place I always point to is Germany.
European socialist state that, well lets see...
*had their economy totally annihilated 70 years ago
*Absorbed a failed state/economy
*had all their neighbors dedicated to them not becoming an economic power...
And still ended up one of the best economies in the world, to the point that they basically run the Euro, which was partially developed to keep their economy in check.
BTW, they're totally socialists.
727 | The Ghost of a Flea Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:20:04pm |
re: #723 The Ghost of a Flea
--the people who created the message might or might not be speaking out of conviction, but they are casting self-beneficial policy as rooted in principle.
Important change in 1st paragraph. More accurate, since their seem to be both true believers in supply-side, Von Mises, et cetera but also those who appropriate the ideas cynically. Given that either way they're demanding that people grasp the shitty end of a stick, it takes awhile to figure who is which.
728 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:24:08pm |
re: #714 wozzablog
Pretty much.
My family were/all are Trots or Marxists.
Both sets of Grandparents grew up at a time of massive social deprevation and with an uncaring state system and no state provision of services.The alternative to Marxism was Oswald Mosely and his black shirt fascist thugs.
I'm positively glad they are Marxists.
In the US this whole marxism/fascism MBF bit is just stupid.
There isn't one "marxist" law that has been implemented in this country. Here, they out-fascisted the fascists before fascism was even a term, with their anti-miscegenation laws, you must go to inferior schools laws, anti-alien land laws, back of the bus laws, eugenics boards, reservation systems, quotas against Jews in hiring, admissions and home ownership/rentals, quotas against immigrants for the same, the list goes on and on and on.
Not to mention the state-sponsored, tax paid violence to back up all of the above.
Speaking about it in a way that's anything other than complimentary or validating? Congratulations, you're a marxist. e_e_
729 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:25:54pm |
re: #728 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
J. Edgar Hoover must have a file on you three inches thick, just for having said that :p
730 | prairiefire Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:28:39pm |
re: #706 ProLifeLiberal
Ok, that's a bit more understandable.
The pancreas is irreplaceable, and essential to how the internal plumbing works. At the end, everything has to be addressed by an attached outer bag, for bile, a catheter. The bowls do not function at all, death comes pretty quickly
731 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:28:41pm |
re: #729 windsagio
J. Edgar Hoover must have a file on you three inches thick, just for having said that :p
Pfft, me and J. Edgar Hoover have probably showed up at the same bars. lol
732 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:29:22pm |
re: #728 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
In the US this whole marxism/fascism MBF bit is just stupid.
There isn't one "marxist" law that has been implemented in this country. Here, they out-fascisted the fascists before fascism was even a term, with their anti-miscegenation laws, you must go to inferior schools laws, anti-alien land laws, back of the bus laws, eugenics boards, reservation systems, quotas against Jews in hiring, admissions and home ownership/rentals, quotas against immigrants for the same, the list goes on and on and on.
Not to mention the state-sponsored, tax paid violence to back up all of the above.
Speaking about it in a way that's anything other than complimentary or validating? Congratulations, you're a marxist. e_e_
Marxists and leftists know fellow travllers, and the american "left" are not fellow travellers. Centre right at best.
Enforced segregation was vital to maintain the social order & economic - once dirt poor blacks and dirt poor whites started meeting in the late 1800's to 1920's they realised they had more in common with each other than the white people did with richer white people.
There was a brief flirtation with a true "Left" in the states but it was brutally put down by the Boss class.
733 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:37:55pm |
re: #732 wozzablog
Marxists and leftists know fellow travllers, and the american "left" are not fellow travellers. Centre right at best.
Enforced segregation was vital to maintain the social order - once dirt poor blacks and dirt poor whites started meeting in the late 1800's to 1920's they realised they had more in common with each other than the white people did with richer white people.
There was a brief flirtation with a true "Left" in the states but it was brutally put down by the Boss class.
There is a lot of overlap, but one of the other reasons the far left has never taken hold is its clining to class as the basis of oppression and trying to add on race/color/ethnicity as an appendix. It makes their analysis incomplete.
The flipside of that is the rwnj antipathy towards the idea of equality, since they think only they are supposed to be treated as the equals by the government; all others are to be dhimmis or second-classers.
If you've known any labor organizers in the south (I did in the mid 90s) they will tell you the same thing as labor organizers from the 30s - nobody will vote for a union because the bosses will tell them that means Blacks will be the bosses.
(Cut to confederate rage against civil rights in the 50s-70s, and then the Obama presidency, 2000s). That's a sad bunch.
734 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:42:34pm |
re: #733 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
My sister did her dissertation on the Union movement and a couple of other elements of Deep South history.
Lesson one from all of history - the boss class will try to keep people divided.
They will try to use Race, Religion, Caste, politics - anything but economic circumstance.
735 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:44:34pm |
re: #733 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
If you've known any labor organizers in the south (I did in the mid 90s) they will tell you the same thing as labor organizers from the 30s - nobody will vote for a union because the bosses will tell them that means Blacks will be the bosses.
Some history on this:
White conservative confederates HATE this. /Schadenfreude
736 | OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:48:41pm |
re: #734 wozzablog
My sister did her dissertation on the Union movement and a couple of other elements of Deep South history.
Lesson one from all of history - the boss class will try to keep people divided.
They will try to use Race, Religion, Caste, politics - anything but economic circumstance.
And yet, they get violent over all of it.
We were talking earlier in the thread about the prospect of violence in the coming few years. It's always possible. But here, rwnj get violent over economic issues and even more violent over racial ones.
In my mind, the two are inseparable. Violent, gun clutching white con bigots get far more violent when they are being told some black person is coming for their stuff.
Otoh, look at the tea party - when class hustlers like Dick Armey and the Koch Brothers come for their stuff, they bend over and pass back the lube.
737 | Wozza Matter? Thu, Oct 6, 2011 6:52:26pm |
738 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:03:20pm |
re: #547 OhCrapIHaveACrushOnSarahPalin
I missed that part. Who has done that? Where is "here"?
"here" is the pacific northwest. a good segment of the OWS trotted over and had a vigil at the apple store. it was surreal.
739 | Gepetto Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:08:51pm |
re: #540 000G
I dunno. Seems to be hyperbole, originally pushed by InfoWars/DrudgeReport convergence:
well, since the actual newspaper source wasn't good enough to pass your muster, here is a huffpo piece. the professional left is co-opting this movement in plain sight now, and it is unfortunate as their entanglement with money and power detracts from the OWS significantly.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
740 | b_sharp Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:11:57pm |
re: #656 wrenchwench
Pony tail is the only way to go.
Actually, mine is braided today.
When I need a ponytail, I just paint one on.
741 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:34:03pm |
re: #739 Gepetto
My sources within the AFL-CIO tell me that they officially decided not to co-opt the OWS movement (largely because the protesters don't have a microphone for Trumka to speak at). They will offer support in terms of use of office space, logistical help and donations, but they don't want to own the show.
742 | windsagio Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:35:58pm |
re: #741 BishopX
Nice of them to decide not to co-opt osmething they probably couldn't co-opt :p
743 | BishopX Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:46:59pm |
re: #742 windsagio
Meh, is they put 4,000 boots on the street in Zuccotti Park day, day out for a month they would own it pretty effectively.
744 | MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Oct 6, 2011 7:47:20pm |
re: #711 CuriousLurker
Life is a death sentence.
Ugh, getting pessimistic & morose now. Time to step away from the computer and seek attitude adjustment.
Later, lizards.
No one here gets out alive
/Jim Morrison
745 | NVAudiophile Thu, Oct 6, 2011 8:27:37pm |
re: #226 Obdicut
I feel like we missed a big window, back when outsourcing started getting really big. A window that would have allowed us either to use our economic power to force better working conditions in China, or to keep manufacturing jobs-- actual jobs, not just automation-- here at home. It's going to be very hard to claw it back now. I think whoever said that a lot depends on workers in China getting organized and demanding better conditions is right. And even now China is building factories in Africa; they're looking to outsource too.
The company I work for used to outsource software and electrical engineering to India. As workers in India have begun asking for higher wages in recent years, we have been moving all outsourcing to China, where we can get the equivalent of someone with an advanced degree for 7.00 per hour. When and if people in China demand better wages and conditions, outsourcing will move again. I recall a conversation with an executive who predicted the next outsourcing opportunity will be in South America, because people there "are willing to work for food."
If it isn't clear, this new social compact that we find ourselves in, thanks to outsourcing, disgusts me.
Government sets the parameters within which business operates. Absent regulation, untreated pollution fouled the air and water, children labored alongside adults in dangerous conditions. There was, after all, a time when slavery was legal and business sought to drive labor costs to zero.
I liken the present situation to the return of a slave-based economy, with the corresponding erosion of the middle class. With three children in high school, I really worry whether their opportunities in life will be as good as mine.
746 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 6, 2011 9:42:48pm |
re: #278 Killgore Trout
People with iphones, laptops and enough free time to live in a park for three weeks? People occupying wall street are not poor. I can guarantee you I make less money than almost all of them. Once again, don;t tell me what I know or how much I'm hurting. I won;t respond to anymore strawmen.
okay
so, I have peniless/unemployed friends wiith laptops, and they are nerds. Therefore, they know other nerds...
who give them old laptops for free. Or they just get clever with keeping their old gear running. I've repaired my own laptops for years, because I was too broke to buy new ones. I currently have four dead laptops stacked in my garage. Two are technically functional if you were to scavenge a hard drive and get linux running on them, two are old inspirons with unknown issues, that could probably be consolidated into one functional machine.
So there goes that strawman!
as for free time... broke and unemployed = lots of free time. Dude in Portland I know who was a mechanic, unemployed for a year, supported himself by doing pick-up mechanic work for friends.
BUT OMG HE OWNED A COMPUTER (that he assembled from scavenged and gifted parts) SO I GUESS HE'S RICH YO
747 | WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Thu, Oct 6, 2011 9:50:19pm |
re: #235 SanFranciscoZionist
Reaction, after some thought: eye roll.
Jaysus, Bird, you're my age, you've read this sort of thing before.
In case you weren't aware, intentional communities of misfits is actually literally how I make a living
So you can eye roll all you want, but my rent is paid
748 | lostlakehiker Thu, Oct 6, 2011 11:00:51pm |
re: #502 Obdicut
No, you didn't. You referenced a wikipedia page about an entire area of mathematics. Do you not know what 'show your math' means?
Look at it this way: what if there were 10,000 people total going to the polls in your state, including you? What are the chances of you being the 'deciding' vote then?
I answered this very question already. But here goes again.
The "real" answer is insanely complicated. But a model can be analyzed. In the model, the question is, what are the odds that the election will be so close that a single voter switching sides can flip the election?
In the model, the voters are flipping coins to decide who they'll vote for. They go into the booth, flip, and vote. The odds that after all 10 thousand votes have been cast, it's a tie, are 0.0079786461393821537604, or (like I wrote earlier) a little less than 1 percent. The formula is C[10000,5000]/2^10000. Binomial coefficient.
The reason for this formula is that in general, if you have n voters, there are C[n,m] different bit strings with exactly m votes for a particular candidate, out of the two on offer. All bit strings are by premise equally likely since everybody's flipping a coin in the model, so the set of strings that yield a tie, C[10K,5K] of them, has a probability of C[10K,5K]/2^(10K) of occurring.
The quick and dirty answer, recall, was 1 percent on the dot.
A practical related question might be, what good will it do to spend on campaign commercials in a state where the election is known to be close and many voters have not made up their minds? And would you do better to spend in a big state, or a small state. (Assume the cost of getting your message to an individual voter is the same either way.)
You'd have to spend ten times as much money on CA as on WV, to reach everybody. Your chance of flipping the election would drop by a factor of 1 in 3 or 4, because CA has ten times as many people, roughly. But the payoff, if you do flip it, is ten times as big. So dollar for dollar, a campaign commercial that must be paid for viewer by viewer pays best in a big swing state. Courting voters in big swing states is the smart move. In that sense, voters in such states have more voting power.
It's somewhat realistic to think of voters as not having made up their minds, because voters may know who they prefer, but whether they actually go and vote is often pretty much a matter of chance. And there are a good many voters who say they're undecided, right down to the wire. Elections really do partake of probability.
749 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Thu, Oct 6, 2011 11:59:43pm |
re: #726 windsagio
Socialist? Germany? Not really.
Also, "the economy" here sucks, too. Just not as hard as elsewhere.
750 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Oct 7, 2011 12:07:46am |
re: #739 Gepetto
I'm aware of the facts. However, I think you don't know what it means.
"the movement will soon be owned lock stock and barrel by the professional left. Once again, the 99% will be left holding the bag as an organic protest movement is co-opted by professional politics."
I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Is "professional" supposed to mean that the "hijackers" are paid? Or does it just mean that they have experience? OWS was started by organizations who have already been around for a while. I have no idea what the fixation on "organic" is supposed to mean, either. OWS cannot formulate feasable policy ideas and have politicians actually listen without it becoming inauthentic all of a sudden? You throwing in a little Soros-baiting sort of sealed the deal for me where you were coming from with your critique.
751 | (I Stand By What I Said Whatever It Was) Fri, Oct 7, 2011 12:28:30am |
752 | Obdicut Fri, Oct 7, 2011 2:30:17am |
re: #748 lostlakehiker
I answered this very question already. But here goes again.
Heh. No, dude.
If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you can't be breaking a tie. You can't be casting a deciding vote. You can be if you're casting the 10,001th vote.
Do you seriously not get that? If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you cannot be breaking a tie. The vote may be at 5000 for one guy, 4,999 for the other-- that's as close as can be. Your vote can at best tie it. It can not be the 'deciding' vote.
I'm pointing out that the concept of a 'deciding' vote is a fallacious one.
753 | Obdicut Fri, Oct 7, 2011 3:04:45am |
re: #748 lostlakehiker
I just ran the 14,000,000 scenario (which is the one I was asking about) through a binomial calculation, and got a P of 0.000426471233367975. So you were absolutely correct that the probability of a tie at that level being much higher than one would think, and I was absolutely wrong to say you were off by a factor of 1,000.
However, you're using the non-mathematical concept of 'deciding vote', as demonstrated in my above post, and that's the problem.
754 | Gepetto Fri, Oct 7, 2011 7:50:25am |
re: #750 000G
I'm aware of the facts. However, I think you don't know what it means.
I don't know what this is supposed to mean. Is "professional" supposed to mean that the "hijackers" are paid? Or does it just mean that they have experience? OWS was started by organizations who have already been around for a while. I have no idea what the fixation on "organic" is supposed to mean, either. OWS cannot formulate feasable policy ideas and have politicians actually listen without it becoming inauthentic all of a sudden? You throwing in a little Soros-baiting sort of sealed the deal for me where you were coming from with your critique.
fair enough. there's a difference between getting something started and feeding it. there's a difference between planting a shrub and bonsai-ing it to take exactly the form you want. the tea party is not what it could have been because of the co-opting from established politicians, glenn beck, the koch brothers and hundreds of shadowy interests that saw an opportunity to make a nascent movement into their own automaton. I believe things really need to change in fundamental ways, and I believe seedlings like the occupy movement are the way they will change. But if the movements embrace the influx of wads of money and entrenched professional leaders, they become the zombie armies for the two existing political parties. Then the 99% stays firmly in the same place it has been--no real change and weakly cheering when one side or another throws us a gnawed up bone.
755 | lostlakehiker Fri, Oct 7, 2011 1:52:38pm |
re: #752 Obdicut
Heh. No, dude.
If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you can't be breaking a tie. You can't be casting a deciding vote. You can be if you're casting the 10,001th vote.
Do you seriously not get that? If you're casting the 10,000th vote, you cannot be breaking a tie. The vote may be at 5000 for one guy, 4,999 for the other-- that's as close as can be. Your vote can at best tie it. It can not be the 'deciding' vote.
I'm pointing out that the concept of a 'deciding' vote is a fallacious one.
You have had every last question answered, carefully. You insist, at every turn, on misinterpreting the answer. The question has always been, and remains, this: What are the odds that when 10001 voters vote, the election is 5001 to 5000? EQUIVALENTLY, what are the odds that when the LAST VOTER, whoever it is, steps up to the booth, the votes already cast have split 5000 to 5000?
What can POSSIBLY be difficult about this? And why do you slide away from the question. Why, when you ask for the math, and are given it, do you shift the question? Perhaps because you hoped that I'd be unable to give it and you could crow. Perhaps because you actually wished to understand, though my hope that this would be the case is fading.
The question of voting power, to be given any exact meaning, has to be recast in terms of some such language. Of course, when 10001 people vote, every one of them, from start to finish, is equally important. NO ONE misunderstands this utterly obvious point.
Look at it this way. Suppose you can bribe just one voter. That voter will take the bribe and stay bribed. It's a close election. Could go either way, in any number of states. You don't know how many states you're going to carry, or which ones. They're all close.
WHO DO YOU BRIBE?
The technically correct answer is, you bribe the CA voter. Your chances that the bribe will flip the state are less, by a factor of 3, than they would have been had you bribed a WV voter. But the electoral college payoff from having the bribe work in CA is TEN TIMES the payoff from having it work in WV.
And why less by a factor of 3? (Or, more exactly, sqrt{10}?) That goes back to the question of why is it that the odds of the election being an exact tie, just before the last vote is cast, drop proportional to the square root of the number of voters in the state. And that goes back, as explained, to Stirling's approximation.
Now in reality, nobody bribes just one voter. But everybody makes campaign promises. They craft them carefully, with an eye to how cheaply the voters can be swayed, how much the state matters, and how likely a persuasive pitch is to sway enough voters to flip the result. But the logic is not all that different. Large, swing, states, are the battleground.
756 | Obdicut Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:09:20pm |
re: #755 lostlakehiker
this: What are the odds that when 10001 voters vote, the election is 5001 to 5000? EQUIVALENTLY, what are the odds that when the LAST VOTER, whoever it is, steps up to the booth, the votes already cast have split 5000 to 5000?
Why on earth do you think that's a question that matters a lot?
Did you really not get the point of the whole 10,000 vs 10,001 votes thing?
The 'deciding vote' thing is a fallacy.
Yes. You bribe the CA voter in a tight rice. Or spend more resources. So what? What does that have to do with what I was saying?
You seem to somehow be offering this extremely limited 1/4000th chance of tipping an election, assuming it all breaks 50/50 AND assuming an odd number of total votes, as somehow equivalent or palliative to the over-representation of the small states in the senate, which is a dead certainty, every time. There is never a time where a senator from Wyoming is not representation fewer people, by an order of magnitude.
So, one single voter can be treated as having a 1/4000 chance to be the 'deciding vote'-- that they vote in an election that winds up in a tie.
That means if he started voting at 18 and dropped dead at 78, he'd have a 1/160 chance of running into a perfect tie in his state in his lifetime of voting in presidential elections, if he voted in every single one.
So what? I mean, never mind the fact that if one guy's vote is the deciding vote, another guy's vote can't be, because you have to know what every other vote is in the case of a tie in order to crown one guy's vote the deciding vote. They can't all be simultaneously the deciding vote, otherwise, if two of them both switch their 'deciding vote', you get bupkus.
It's interesting that the odds of a single person affecting a tie are higher than you might naively think. They are still intensely small, and they still have nothing to do with the fact that the senators for the smaller states represent far fewer people than those from the larger ones.
757 | Obdicut Fri, Oct 7, 2011 8:25:01pm |
re: #756 Obdicut
And by 'you might naively think', I definitely don't mean you. I was naive, I thought the chance would be much lower.
It is still a very remote chance.
758 | Obdicut Sat, Oct 8, 2011 4:37:57am |
Heh. Or, to put it another way, since there is a 1/4000 chance of a Californian's vote tipping California's electoral votes, and we have a vote for president every year, this scenario will occur every 1000 years.
I think the main problem with how you've phrased it is you're talking about the 1/4000 chance as though it's the chance for an individual to sway the election, but it's not; it's the chance for all those votes to break 50/50. So its' interesting, mathematically, but what relevance does it have to reality? One time in a millennium, the scenario will occur.
Whereas every single time the senate votes on something, the vote of the Senator from Wyoming holds equal power to the vote of the Senator from California, despite the Senator from California representing vastly more people.