Here’s a second thread for wrap-up comments about this pathetic event they’re calling a debate. Brian Williams failed to follow up on a single issue; it was basically a two-hour commercial for the Republican Party agenda.
I don’t know who “won” the debate, but I know who lost. You, me, and reality.
2 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:50:18pm |
I didn't watch either. I'm focused on getting stuff done for school, and listening to my iPod.
| 3 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:50:24pm |
re: #1 erik_t
I didn't lose; I wasn't watching!
Pity. The spoke of the merits of the Israeli transportation system.
| 7 |
jaunte Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:53:06pm |
re: #6 Stanley Sea
Williams: "The room has cleared remarkably quickly."
| 8 |
krypto Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:53:25pm |
I missed all but the last few minutes. What's this about muzzling the audience?
The outrageous reactions of the GOP audience are usually the most memorable take-aways from the GOP debates, stuff like booing the golden rule, yelling out "yes" to the question of letting uninsured people die without medical care, etc.
| 10 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:54:05pm |
Brian Williams even let Rick Santorum get away with white-washing his absolutely disgusting exploitation of the Terri Schiavo debacle.
| 11 |
RealityBasedSteve Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:55:28pm |
I'm just going to curl into a fetal position in the shower and let the hot water wash the stupid off me.
RBS
| 12 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:55:30pm |
I don’t know who “won” the debate, but I know who lost. You, me, and reality.
Speaking of reality:
Arctic Ocean freshwater bulge detected
[...]
The creation of the Beaufort Gyre bulge is not a continuous development throughout the 15-year data-set, and only becomes a dominant feature in the latter half of the study period.
This may indicate a change in the relationship between the wind and the ocean in the Arctic brought about by the recent rapid decline in sea-ice cover, the CPOM team argues in its Nature Geoscience paper.
[...]
Whatever the proximate cause, the reality is that the surface of the Earth is changing, driven by human activities.
| 13 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:56:14pm |
re: #6 Stanley Sea
I'm relying on you, Lizardia.
What the fuck happened?
There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
| 14 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:56:16pm |
| 15 |
RealityBasedSteve Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:57:29pm |
re: #13 goddamnedfrank
There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
now THAT would be a debate. Maybe the next one could be a gladiator type event. (But I'm not sure that I want to see Newt in leather)
| 16 |
darthstar Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:58:19pm |
Okay...I did it...I missed the whole debate. It wasn't on my local NBC station and I didn't feel like streaming, and from the post-debate commentary, it sounds like it was a dud of a debate.
| 17 |
Targetpractice Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:58:50pm |
Guess the winner is Poltifact and FactChecker, who will no doubt have fun for the next couple days savaging the last 2 hours of boredom.
| 18 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 7:59:41pm |
I LOVE that they spoke to a large population of Hispanic people that we should adopt English as a #1 language, meaning nothing will be printed in Spanish. Not driving tests, nothing at the courthouse. No gov agency. That's going to go over large in a city like Miami of 1.5 million people (I believe last count) who is 85% Spanish second language speakers.
And that hogwash about speaking it in school, English is taught for foreign speaking children at the kindergarten level. Fucking fat face Newt KNOWS THAT. It's a function of the FEDERAL government.
I laughed a lot because it was funny, but that shit really enraged me. I hope the Republican Cubans got an earful of that mess.
| 19 |
Four More Tears Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:00:43pm |
Well, that's it for the Republican debates... until Thursday. :(
| 20 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:01:09pm |
re: #13 goddamnedfrank
There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
Did you catch him in your net first?
| 21 |
RealityBasedSteve Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:01:43pm |
re: #19 JasonA
Well, that's it for the Republican debates... until Thursday. :(
I think I have to 'self-root-canal' on Thursday. can't be any more painful.
RBS
| 22 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:03:09pm |
re: #19 JasonA
Well, that's it for the Republican debates... until Thursday. :(
Likely I'll miss that one. It's the last day of the special Chinese New Year's menu at Koi up in Evanston, and it's also half-price wine night up there. My parents and I will likely have dinner there on Thursday and that'll likely make me miss half the debate.
| 23 |
RealityBasedSteve Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:03:21pm |
well, I'm going to finish the "Have Gun, Will Travel" eposide I was watching. Sleep tight and don't let the bed-lizards bite.
RBS
| 24 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:03:50pm |
Gah, I spend the afternoon talking to a federal Bankruptcy Trustee & then spend my night hearing about this. Thank God for Mr. Guinness and Mr. Beam...
| 25 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:04:39pm |
re: #24 wlewisiii
Gah, I spend the afternoon talking to a federal Bankruptcy Trustee & then spend my night hearing about this. Thank God for Mr. Guinness and Mr. Beam...
Oh my. Are you alright?
| 27 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:08:58pm |
I never need to watch a republican on TV again
Wake me when they're not racist shit
| 28 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:09:41pm |
re: #13 goddamnedfrank
There were horses, and a man on fire, and I killed a guy with a trident.
The GOP smells like bigfoot's dick
| 29 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:10:34pm |
I have to say, I was very pleasantly surprised in 2008 at the number of Cubans who registered Democrat and voted for Obama. They're done with the Bay of Pigs, which is really why the Cubans vote Republican. Quite frankly, very little about them is Republican when you get to talking to them. They just don't like the sound of any kind of socialism.
And while their kids have grown up here, friends of mine, many who were even born on the island, they have a different understanding of socialism. The Democratic kind that doesn't enslave people. They DO NOT want to lift sanctions. I think it's a terrible idea, myself, but they understand the Democratic party.
So ya never know what 2012 may bring.
| 30 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:10:39pm |
I didn't watch, but I understand Mitt made a puzzling comment about the Castros "going to another land" when they died.
Perhaps this is telling that he is a real Mormon because there is a Mormon belief that one goes to a new Planet when one dies. The better person one is the more one gets of one.
| 31 |
Four More Tears Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:12:27pm |
re: #28 WindUpBird
The GOP smells like bigfoot's dick
How do you know what Bigfoot's dick smells like?
| 32 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:12:58pm |
| 33 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:13:29pm |
re: #30 Naso Tang
That was sort of my reaction too, when I heard it. It sounded rather Mormon of him. I almost expected him to say a different "planet".
And then Newt's reply sounded exactly like what I'd expect of someone angling to throw in hellfire to get the evangelical vote.
| 34 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:13:39pm |
LOL How'd ya like the self-deportation thing? Where'd he get that?
Hmm... I know! Self-insurance! Self-employment! Self-homelessness! Self-imprisonment!
poniewozik James Poniewozik
Romney would deal w illegal immigration thru "self-deportation." Also, wd defeat Taliban through "self-surrender." #fldebate
| 35 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:13:58pm |
re: #28 WindUpBird
The GOP smells like bigfoot's dick
It's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
| 36 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:15:01pm |
re: #33 freetoken
Newt only likes hellfire because hellfire is needed to cook a mean burger
PRESIDENT CHUB AND HIS ELECTRIC WIFE CALLISTRON
| 37 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:15:23pm |
re: #35 goddamnedfrank
you ate a wheel of cheese?!?!?!
| 38 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:15:35pm |
re: #25 Dark_Falcon
Oh my. Are you alright?
We're fine. Our credit rating? Not so much...
Our homeowner's insurance demanded X-thousand dollars in repairs. We took out a second mortgage. Almost immediately my wife lost her RN job (age discrimination but she was too depressed from being fired to let me file suit) and we lived on the loan while getting the work done to avoid loosing the house. Well, that lead to too many bills to pay even once we had full income and so we have a house in foreclosure and a full bankruptcy. Thanks to the bubble our house mortgage is 25% higher than tax valuation & 50% higher than fair market value.
OTOH, we're using it as a fresh start & we'll be moving up to northern Wisconsin. She'll get RN work & I'll get a FFL01 and cater to the hunting crowd and hopefully sell some artsy-fartsy landscapes. 4x5 LF black & white contact prints, matted & framed & at least $100 a pop. We'll survive. Unlike too many people, we aren't going to go hungry or live in our car.
Hard enough psychologically & it'll be real tough on my son to move.
| 39 |
Ben G. Hazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:15:57pm |
re: #35 goddamnedfrank
It's made with bits of real panther, so you know it's good.
I got to tell you...it smells like gasoline.
| 40 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:16:05pm |
re: #29 marjoriemoon
I have to say, I was very pleasantly surprised in 2008 at the number of Cubans who registered Democrat and voted for Obama. They're done with the Bay of Pigs, which is really why the Cubans vote Republican. Quite frankly, very little about them is Republican when you get to talking to them. They just don't like the sound of any kind of socialism.
And while their kids have grown up here, friends of mine, many who were even born on the island, they have a different understanding of socialism. The Democratic kind that doesn't enslave people. They DO NOT want to lift sanctions. I think it's a terrible idea, myself, but they understand the Democratic party.
So ya never know what 2012 may bring.
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sad Senate news up here in Illinois though, Rubio's fellow Senate freashman, Mark Kirk has suffered a stroke. He's going to be downlined for some time. I hope he makes a full recovery, but with strokes one never knows. His career as a Naval Reserve officer is over for certain, though.
| 41 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:16:10pm |
re: #36 WindUpBird
Oh, I got a harsher descriptor for Callista Gingrich.
| 42 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:17:29pm |
re: #41 ProLifeLiberal
Oh, I got a harsher descriptor for Callista Gingrich.
yes, but does it roll off the tongue like Callistron? :D
| 43 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:18:09pm |
re: #40 Dark_Falcon
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sad Senate news up here in Illinois though, Rubio's fellow Senate freashman, Mark Kirk has suffered a stroke. He's going to be downlined for some time. I hope he makes a full recovery, but with strokes one never knows. His career as a Naval Reserve officer is over for certain, though.
it is not more likely
| 44 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:18:39pm |
re: #42 WindUpBird
No, it doesn't. I also admit it is a fair bit more nasty too.
| 45 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:19:18pm |
re: #40 Dark_Falcon
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sad Senate news up here in Illinois though, Rubio's fellow Senate freashman, Mark Kirk has suffered a stroke. He's going to be downlined for some time. I hope he makes a full recovery, but with strokes one never knows. His career as a Naval Reserve officer is over for certain, though.
I heard about Kirk. Young man to suffer a stroke!
I don't know about Rubio. He certainly gets the Republican vote, but like I say, there are lots of Cubans (I'll call them "young" - they be my age) who are sick to death of these candidates. Some I know are still registered Republican and voted for Obama and very well may do it again.
| 46 |
Achilles Tang Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:19:25pm |
re: #33 freetoken
Would it be bad to say that that kind of belief alone, if sincere, is cause enough to pray it never enters the White House?/
| 47 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:19:52pm |
re: #42 WindUpBird
yes, but does it roll off the tongue like Callistron? :D
Ok, but does that make Newt Starscream? And I don't even want to think about Black Arachnia... :eek:
| 48 |
Four More Tears Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:20:20pm |
| 49 |
engineer cat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:20:27pm |
| 50 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:20:59pm |
Outright lie from Newt Gingrich: "Obama canceled military drill with Israel." It was Israel who canceled the drill.
| 52 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:21:49pm |
Heh, none other than the Drudgereport is fact checking Newt?
Upper left column:
CONFUSION:
GINGRICH NOW: I SUPPORTED GOLDWATER...
GINGRICH FLASHBACK: I SUPPORTED ROCKEFELLER OVER GOLDWATER...
| 53 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:21:52pm |
re: #42 WindUpBird
yes, but does it roll off the tongue like Callistron? :D
I'm thinking Cloris Leachman and Harvey Korman in High Anxiety.
| 54 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:22:21pm |
American politics has degraded to the point where outright lies are not just acceptable, but expected -- and nobody in the media calls them out.
| 55 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:22:27pm |
re: #40 Dark_Falcon
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sad Senate news up here in Illinois though, Rubio's fellow Senate freashman, Mark Kirk has suffered a stroke. He's going to be downlined for some time. I hope he makes a full recovery, but with strokes one never knows. His career as a Naval Reserve officer is over for certain, though.
Heard that. It's part of why I can't too upset about a house or money. The man's only a year older than me and that's a far worse situation to be in.
| 56 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:23:47pm |
re: #54 Charles
American politics has degraded to the point where outright lies are not just acceptable, but expected -- and nobody in the media calls them out.
And the peeps are so happy that the lie fits their crooked world view.
We are pretty fucked.
| 57 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:23:57pm |
re: #50 Charles
Outright lie from Newt Gingrich: "Obama canceled military drill with Israel." It was Israel who canceled the drill.
Twitterverse to the rescue!
| 58 |
What, me worry? Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:24:34pm |
Ok, I have to go to sleep. Thanks for the laughs and the cries. See you lizards another eve :)
| 59 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:25:45pm |
I don't really care for the lies. I'm watching The Birdcage.
LOL
| 60 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:26:08pm |
re: #55 wlewisiii
Heard that. It's part of why I can't too upset about a house or money. The man's only a year older than me and that's a far worse situation to be in.
True that. Well, Kirk has a good chance but it's just too soon to know anything. Believe me when I say I know more about strokes and brain injury than I ever wanted to learn.
| 61 |
engineer cat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:26:58pm |
re: #54 Charles
American politics has degraded to the point where outright lies are not just acceptable, but expected -- and nobody in the media calls them out.
i listen eagerly for truthful statements from the gop candidates, but rarely hear them
unless they're attacking each other
| 62 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:27:00pm |
re: #54 Charles
American politics has degraded to the point where outright lies are not just acceptable, but expected -- and nobody in the media calls them out.
America seems to have some need to do this every so often. The Know-Nothings, the Civil War, the Union Wars, the 20's~30's, the 60's. Now this with many of the same players as the 60's. I just hope we get to a modern day Progressive Era before much longer.
| 63 |
palomino Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:27:02pm |
re: #40 Dark_Falcon
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sad Senate news up here in Illinois though, Rubio's fellow Senate freashman, Mark Kirk has suffered a stroke. He's going to be downlined for some time. I hope he makes a full recovery, but with strokes one never knows. His career as a Naval Reserve officer is over for certain, though.
How do you figure that if Rubio's not on the ticket? Cuban-Americans will just knee-jerk vote gop because another Cuban-American told them to?
And if Romney's the nominee, he'll have even more trouble overall with the Hispanic community than Newt. Xenophobia and threats to deport have a way of turning off newer immigrants.
| 64 |
BishopX Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:27:42pm |
re: #60 Dark_Falcon
NYTimes was saying the the stroke was on side of his brain most likely to effect motor control as opposed to messing up his speech or writing abilities... that's something I guess. We can only hope now.
| 65 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:28:21pm |
re: #40 Dark_Falcon
Given Sen. Marco Rubio's popularity within the Cuban community, it is likely more of them will vote Republican this time around.
Sure. Their calls for "English only" and "self-deportation" are real winners in the Cuban community, I'm sure.
| 66 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:30:49pm |
re: #64 BishopX
NYTimes was saying the the stroke was on side of his brain most likely to effect motor control as opposed to messing up his speech or writing abilities... that's something I guess. We can only hope now.
As a reserve officer in the Navy, that likely won't make it much better. The only real good news was that it was a bleed instead of a clot, so there is less likely to be extensive permanent damage.
| 67 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:31:43pm |
re: #65 Charles
Sure. Their calls for "English only" and "self-deportation" are real winners in the Cuban community, I'm sure.
But historically, Cubans are the protected Hispanic race. Everyone else is on their own. They get one foot in, they are in.
| 68 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:32:22pm |
re: #63 palomino
How do you figure that if Rubio's not on the ticket? Cuban-Americans will just knee-jerk vote gop because another Cuban-American told them to?
And if Romney's the nominee, he'll have even more trouble overall with the Hispanic community than Newt. Xenophobia and threats to deport have a way of turning off newer immigrants.
Whoever the nominee is, Rubio will be out campaigning for him. How much he does that, though, depends on who the nominee is and and Rubio's appetite for rick.
| 69 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:32:43pm |
re: #67 Stanley Sea
But historically, Cubans are the protected Hispanic race. Everyone else is on their own. They get one foot in, they are in.
yep
| 70 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:32:49pm |
re: #67 Stanley Sea
But historically, Cubans are the protected Hispanic race. Everyone else is on their own. They get one foot in, they are in.
And its created a hugely unfair immigrant system. But GOP will never speak it because of f l o r i d a
| 71 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:33:40pm |
re: #70 Stanley Sea
And its created a hugely unfair immigrant system. But GOP will never speak it because of f l o r i d a
You mean the GOP only wants to deport the hispanics that don't vote republican?
Shocked, I am
| 72 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:33:58pm |
re: #65 Charles
Sure. Their calls for "English only" and "self-deportation" are real winners in the Cuban community, I'm sure.
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of "self-deportation". Is that some sort of GOP version of Cartman lite?
| 73 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:35:16pm |
re: #66 Dark_Falcon
One of the close friends I have mentioned on here had a stroke in Freshman Year of college. She survived.
| 74 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:35:29pm |
re: #64 BishopX
NYTimes was saying the the stroke was on side of his brain most likely to effect motor control as opposed to messing up his speech or writing abilities... that's something I guess. We can only hope now.
High stress situations are a bitch, being Senator and giving a rat's ass about the job must come with risks. It's a miracle I survived my hypertensive crisis without blowing out or permanently damaging anything of value. I went in with a BP of 220/180 and they put me on anti seizure meds during my stay purely as a prophylactic. Had a bad pain reaction to the IV shunt that sent me vasovagal in the ER, got the whole sublingual nitroglycerine treatment from an very nice nurse. Spent a few days in the ICU, got jelly spread all over my torso by an echo tech that was a dead ringer for Michelle Rodriguez ... awkward but fun. I was a liberal before but the whole experience made the healthcare debate intensely personal.
| 75 |
engineer cat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:36:16pm |
| 76 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:38:08pm |
re: #71 WindUpBird
You mean the GOP only wants to deport the hispanics that don't vote republican?
Shocked, I am
Ah the key word is communism. It will die out. Eventually.
| 77 |
prairiefire Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:40:49pm |
re: #74 goddamnedfrank
"Awkward but fun." Now that's a good attitude.
| 78 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:40:58pm |
re: #75 engineer dog
could you vote for newt?
I don't know if he could or not. I will say that's one of the great things about the secret ballot.
| 79 |
palomino Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:41:28pm |
re: #65 Charles
Sure. Their calls for "English only" and "self-deportation" are real winners in the Cuban community, I'm sure.
Republicans seem to be more excited about Rubio and Christie than any of the guys currently running. Which is perfectly understandable, except it's still 2012.
But they shoud be careful what they wish for. Rubio will have a tough time selling his party's xenophobia to Hispanic voters.
And Christie has serious problems. No, I don't mean his obesity and attendant health problems (though that's not exactly a plus). His real problem is that he's a loose cannon and has a combative speaking style. The base loves him, despite his moderate views, because he's a loudmouth who takes on liberals. But Christie seems to relish these public confrontations too much...it's the kind of thing likely to blow up in his face. People may want a straight talker, but now a blowhard who screams at opponents in public and calls hecklers "sweetheart" as he goes after them with perverse glee.
| 80 |
palomino Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:46:06pm |
re: #68 Dark_Falcon
Whoever the nominee is, Rubio will be out campaigning for him. How much he does that, though, depends on who the nominee is and and Rubio's appetite for rick.
Just as most prominent Republican Cuban-Americans in FL were out there campaigning for McCain in 08. Didn't make much difference.
Putting Rubio on the ticket might deliver FL, might not. But his explanations of his party's xenophobia won't cut it with Hispanic voters, especially non-Cubans, a group growing much faster in FL (and elsewhere) than Cubans.
| 81 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:46:18pm |
re: #74 goddamnedfrank
High stress situations are a bitch, being Senator and giving a rat's ass about the job must come with risks. It's a miracle I survived my hypertensive crisis without blowing out or permanently damaging anything of value. I went in with a BP of 220/180 and they put me on anti seizure meds during my stay purely as a prophylactic. Had a bad pain reaction to the IV shunt that sent me vasovagal in the ER, got the whole sublingual nitroglycerine treatment from an very nice nurse. Spent a few days in the ICU, got jelly spread all over my torso by an echo tech that was a dead ringer for Michelle Rodriguez ... awkward but fun. I was a liberal before but the whole experience made the whole healthcare debate intensely personal.
Nitroglycerine, eh? Is that why you get explosive at times? ;)
/not trying to make light of your illness, Frank.
| 82 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:46:36pm |
By the way DF in the spirit of friendship allow me to present some military spending even liberals can get behind!
| 83 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:47:53pm |
re: #72 Lidane
I'm still trying to wrap my head around the idea of "self-deportation". Is that some sort of GOP version of Cartman lite?
[Video]
"Self-deportation" is the philosophy behind Arizona's harsh anti-immigrant laws. It means harassing and persecuting immigrants until they flee the country.
| 84 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:48:09pm |
If Christie takes on Palin in rebuttal, maybe I'll respect his chutzpah. Otherwise, he's afraid of her.
| 85 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:51:40pm |
re: #79 palomino
Republicans seem to be more excited about Rubio and Christie than any of the guys currently running.
Anybody But Romney.
| 86 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:52:14pm |
re: #83 Charles
"Self-deportation" is the philosophy behind Arizona's harsh anti-immigrant laws. It means harassing and persecuting immigrants until they flee the country.
Ah. So it involves being such xenophobic, bigoted assholes that even citizens of that particular ethnicity stop bringing money to your state. And it also involves farmers losing money because suddenly, there's no one around to do the actual work on the farm.
I get it now.
| 87 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:53:37pm |
| 88 |
erik_t Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:54:18pm |
re: #82 jamesfirecat
By the way DF in the spirit of friendship allow me to present some military spending even liberals can get behind!
Massive military monsters are, in the truest NASA spirit, the best stimulus you can find outside of basic infrastructure, and do tend to boost spending in science and engineering.
PLUS DOOD SICK-ASS BITCHIN' PLANE ZHOOOOOOW KAPOW-POW-POW-POW KSHSHSHSHSHSHH
| 89 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:55:07pm |
re: #81 Dark_Falcon
Nitroglycerine, eh? Is that why you get explosive at times? ;)
/not trying to make light of your illness, Frank.
Honestly, it's possible. My hypertension was a pre-existing condition and due to the divorce I lost my insurance coverage. On top of that my Mom and Stepdad didn't come down to see me because I didn't have insurance and my Mom thought I was lying about the symptoms that caused me to seek treatment (loss of central vision in both eyes.) In that ICU that I lost entirely my ability to give a shit about what other people think of me.
| 90 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:55:12pm |
re: #82 jamesfirecat
By the way DF in the spirit of friendship allow me to present some military spending even liberals can get behind!
I see an F/A-18 Hornet with drop tanks, an AIM-9 Sidewinder heat-seeking AAM on the wingtip pylon, and twp AIM-120 AMRAAM Advanced Medium Range AAMs on underwing pylons.
Were you referring to the tail art?
| 91 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:56:53pm |
re: #90 Dark_Falcon
I see an F/A-18 Hornet with drop tanks, an AIM-9 Sidewinder heat-seeking AAM on the wingtip pylon, and twp AIM-120 AMRAAM Advanced Medium Range AAMs on underwing pylons.
Were you referring to the tail art?
What can I say, it's 20% cooler than anything the enemy will be flying!
| 92 |
Charles Johnson Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:56:56pm |
re: #86 Lidane
Ah. So it involves being such xenophobic, bigoted assholes that even citizens of that particular ethnicity stop bringing money to your state. And it also involves farmers losing money because suddenly, there's no one around to do the actual work on the farm.
I get it now.
That's exactly what it means. Make life so miserable and uncertain for immigrants that they will self-deport.
Not exaggerating at all, by the way. The right wing xenophobes like Kris Kobach are completely open about this.
| 93 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:57:12pm |
US Supreme court overturns California meat safety law
The US Supreme Court Monday overturned a California law that set strict standards for slaughtering and selling the meat of sick and injured animals.
The Supreme Court said California's law ran afoul of the Federal Meat Inspection Act.
The California law forbids a slaughterhouse to "buy, sell, or receive a nonambulatory animal," butcher it or sell its meat, or hold it without immediately euthanizing it.
Federal law has no requirement of immediately euthanizing the animals.The California State Legislature passed the law in response to a documentary released in January 2008. It showed obviously sick animals just before being slaughtered and cruel treatment of them by slaughterhouse workers at two plants in Chino, California.
The film showed the animals being dragged with chains, rammed with a forklift or having pressurized water squirted up their nostrils to get them to move.
However, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that California lacks authority to make regulations different from federal law at slaughterhouses inspected by the US Food and Drug Administration.
[...]
Just wait until the Tea Partying GOP finally gets it way and eliminates the USDA... then we'll be free of any regulations on the slaughter of animals.
| 94 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 8:58:51pm |
re: #90 Dark_Falcon
I see an F/A-18 Hornet with drop tanks, an AIM-9 Sidewinder heat-seeking AAM on the wingtip pylon, and twp AIM-120 AMRAAM Advanced Medium Range AAMs on underwing pylons.
Were you referring to the tail art?
I don't get it either, DF. I presume the tail art as well but don't see why.
| 95 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:00:24pm |
The reaction of the right wing commentariat? Lots of pining for Rick Perry!
| 96 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:01:01pm |
re: #93 freetoken
US Supreme court overturns California meat safety law
Just wait until the Tea Partying GOP finally gets it way and eliminates the USDA... then we'll be free of any regulations on the slaughter of animals.
Key line here:
However, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that California lacks authority to make regulations different from federal law at slaughterhouses inspected by the US Food and Drug Administration.
As long as the FDA is inspecting via the Dept of Agriculture, Federal law holds sway. Don't like it? Change federal law, don't play "state's rights for liberals".
| 97 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:01:22pm |
re: #93 freetoken
US Supreme court overturns California meat safety law
Just wait until the Tea Partying GOP finally gets it way and eliminates the USDA... then we'll be free of any regulations on the slaughter of animals.
The Supreme Court ruled as the Constitution mandated it must rule: Article Six's Supremacy Clause is exactly on point here. This can be defended under originalist interpretations of the Interstate Commerce Clause because livestock and meat derived from them are moved between states on an ongoing basis. So one can be a conservative and yet feel the federal law in play here is fully constitutional.
| 98 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:02:30pm |
re: #96 wlewisiii
Key line here:
However, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled that California lacks authority to make regulations different from federal law at slaughterhouses inspected by the US Food and Drug Administration.As long as the FDA is inspecting via the Dept of Agriculture, Federal law holds sway. Don't like it? Change federal law, don't play "state's rights for liberals".
Just so!
| 99 |
engineer cat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:03:58pm |
"Self-deportation"
i believe einstein was "convinced" to practice this
| 100 |
Daniel Ballard Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:04:01pm |
re: #93 freetoken
I have another take on this. When you stop allowing states to have stricter rules than the Feds might mandate, you call into question all sorts of environmental regulations at state level.
| 101 |
freetoken Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:04:15pm |
re: #96 wlewisiii
I'm just saying... under the ideal promoted by the Pauls, the Tea Partying base (which are now Newt lovers it appears), and the entire current GOP nomination candidates, government regulation is bad.
| 102 |
jamesfirecat Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:05:21pm |
Anyway I'm going to bed now
For those of you who didn't get the reference on my post to Dark it was a reference to Rainbow Dash because when you get right down to it, friendship really is magic.
| 103 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:05:51pm |
| 104 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:05:55pm |
I liked Newt's "go to the moon permanently" comment.
I realize the moon thing was an ordinary gaffe, but when pundits need to explain polyamory and who Aleister Crowley was in order to describe a conservative party's leading candidate then I would say that means the party has a pretty serious message problem.
| 105 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:07:55pm |
re: #104 DobermanBoston
I liked Newt's "go to the moon permanently" comment.
I realize the moon thing was an ordinary gaffe, but when pundits need to explain polyamory and who Aleister Crowley was in order to describe a conservative party's leading candidate then I would say that means the party has a pretty serious message problem.
wait, Crowley? Where's this? :D
Yes, I know all about the O.T.O. because I'm that guy, love under will
| 106 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:08:53pm |
re: #102 jamesfirecat
Anyway I'm going to bed now
For those of you who didn't get the reference on my post to Dark it was a reference to Rainbow Dash because when you get right down to it, friendship really is magic.
That is a nice Hallmark Moment, James.
| 107 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:10:24pm |
re: #104 DobermanBoston
Crowley? WTF? I haven't heard of that idiot, even from my Neo-Pagan acquaintances in decades.
| 108 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:10:29pm |
Someone on MSNBC mentioned it right after the debate. I guess Newt was talking about Crowley's mountain climbing when he was on the stump in SC.
| 109 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:10:57pm |
re: #107 wlewisiii
Crowley? WTF? I haven't heard of that idiot, even from my Neo-Pagan acquaintances in decades.
He's not an idiot :/
| 110 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:11:37pm |
re: #102 jamesfirecat
Anyway I'm going to bed now
For those of you who didn't get the reference on my post to Dark it was a reference to Rainbow Dash because when you get right down to it, friendship really is magic.
Ah. Thank you for explaining. Good rest & pleasant dreams.
| 111 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:12:37pm |
re: #108 DobermanBoston
Someone on MSNBC mentioned it right after the debate. I guess Newt was talking about Crowley's mountain climbing when he was on the stump in SC.
six degrees of separation, I guess haha
| 112 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:14:32pm |
re: #109 WindUpBird
He's not an idiot :/
Earlier today, Curious Lurker quoted an old proverb that went "God put your tongue behind the gates of your teeth for a reason." I am going heed that at this moment and simply ask that we agree to disagree.
| 113 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:16:12pm |
I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Newt hadn't dropped Albert Pike's name a few times when he was speaker, and if it weren't for the fact that a lot of swingers have an interest in the occult.
| 114 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:16:34pm |
re: #112 wlewisiii
Earlier today, Curious Lurker quoted an old proverb that went "God put your tongue behind the gates of your teeth for a reason." I am going heed that at this moment and simply ask that we agree to disagree.
Feel however you want about Crowley, violently disagree with whatever he's said you like, but he's not a stupid person, that's simply factually incorrect
| 115 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:19:04pm |
re: #113 DobermanBoston
I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Newt hadn't dropped Albert Pike's name a few times when he was speaker, and if it weren't for the fact that a lot of swingers have an interest in the occult.
Who was Albert Pike?
| 116 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:19:19pm |
re: #113 DobermanBoston
I wouldn't have thought anything of it if Newt hadn't dropped Albert Pike's name a few times when he was speaker, and if it weren't for the fact that a lot of swingers have an interest in the occult.
It's all very rock and roll :D
| 117 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:21:10pm |
| 118 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:26:08pm |
Talking Points Memo @TPM
Romney paid 13.9% tax rate in 2010
I swear, almost all the stories on the radio are about 99 v. 1. OWS succeeded and Romney is fucked.
| 119 |
palomino Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:27:31pm |
OT: Tebagger NHL player refuses to visit White House ceremony honoring Stanley Cup Champ Boston Bruins.
Not the first time it's happened to Obama. Some golfers and NASCAR drivers (what a shock in those two sports) have done the same thing, dissing Obama because he's a scary liberal.
I have a vague recollection that this also happened when Bush was prez, but I'm not sure...anyone remember? One of the Steelers has skipped such a ceremony twice I believe, once under Bush and once under Obama...not based on a particularly ideology so much as a total apolitical stance.
| 120 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:27:51pm |
Pike was a 19th century occultist and, in spite of being from Boston, a Confederate Brigadier General during the Civil War.
| 121 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:27:55pm |
| 122 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:29:24pm |
re: #120 DobermanBoston
Pike was a 19th century occultist and, in spite of being from Boston, a Confederate Brigadier General during the Civil War.
Ah yes, now I remember: He headed a brigade of Native Americans at the Battle of Pea Ridge under Maj. Gen. Earl van Dorn in 1862.
| 123 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:30:41pm |
re: #118 Stanley Sea
Talking Points Memo @TPM
Romney paid 13.9% tax rate in 2010
I swear, almost all the stories on the radio are about 99 v. 1. OWS succeeded and Romney is fucked.
Maybe Romney will be the guy that inadvertently kills this low taxes for rich parasites shit once and for all in the USA
In a remotely reasonable world, he'd be in jail for hiding his assets offshore
| 124 |
Dark_Falcon Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:31:26pm |
| 125 |
BishopX Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:31:36pm |
re: #118 Stanley Sea
He also had a 500 page tax return for 2010...lets see what in there.
| 126 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:31:53pm |
re: #121 WindUpBird
Don't say that aloud, Killgore will go all hyperlink crazy and poop on the LGF comments :D
Didn't he get his own page? Nah, he's just sleeping.
| 127 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:32:34pm |
re: #124 Dark_Falcon
I don't think that should be a political DQ. Mitt used his money to save as much of his money as he could.
USA USA USA
| 129 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:34:22pm |
re: #125 BishopX
He also had a 500 page tax return for 2010...lets see what in there.
Loopholes and offshore bank accounts ahoy!
| 130 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:36:35pm |
RWC, you still around? I put a new toy on layaway. Been needing a hunting season handgun and had a short barrel Ruger Blackhawk show up in front of me. Going to need .45 Colt dies once I pay it off too... OTOH, a bambi in our freezer will more than pay for it given the cost of beef these days.
| 131 |
BishopX Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:38:17pm |
re: #129 Lidane
He apparently closed his swiss bank account in 2010 on account of an adviser who thought it would "look bad" for his presidential run. This is the second time he should have though to put his finances through the washer, and he still has skeletons left and right.
| 132 |
DobermanBoston Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:39:50pm |
I started following primaries in 1976. I have never seen a less impressive field in either party than the initial field in this one.
| 133 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:40:16pm |
eclecticbrotha @eclecticbrotha
Remember, kids: Radical Jihadists are less than 90 miles from our shores. AT THE COPA, COPA CABANA! THE HOTTEST SPOT NORTH OF HAVANA!
| 134 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:41:24pm |
re: #133 Stanley Sea
eclecticbrotha @eclecticbrotha
Remember, kids: Radical Jihadists are less than 90 miles from our shores. AT THE COPA, COPA CABANA! THE HOTTEST SPOT NORTH OF HAVANA!
I shouldn't reward you with an upding for Barry Manilowe but damn if that didn't make me laugh loud enough to wake the dead.
| 135 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:42:24pm |
re: #132 DobermanBoston
That's saying alot. I know the rough history of these fields, and some of them were pretty bad duds.
| 136 |
Stanghazi Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:44:06pm |
re: #134 wlewisiii
I shouldn't reward you with an upding for Barry Manilowe but damn if that didn't make me laugh loud enough to wake the dead.
ME TOO
| 137 |
austin_blue Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:53:23pm |
re: #130 wlewisiii
RWC, you still around? I put a new toy on layaway. Been needing a hunting season handgun and had a short barrel Ruger Blackhawk show up in front of me. Going to need .45 Colt dies once I pay it off too... OTOH, a bambi in our freezer will more than pay for it given the cost of beef these days.
If you want to put meat in the freezer, a handgun isn't going to feed the bulldog. A nice 30.06 or 7mm will fill the bill. I've always liked the 7.62 NATO as a hunting round, personally. My rifle is an ancient H&K 91. Great gun.
But that's just me.
I've got a Dan Wesson .357 pistol pack, and even with the 8" barrel, it's a useless hunting gun unless you scare up a feral hog in a draw. And you better be good or that pig will tear out your asshole.
And yes, I'm a Texas Democrat. And a vet. Take that, Teabaggers.
| 138 |
palomino Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:53:57pm |
re: #124 Dark_Falcon
I don't think that should be a political DQ. Mitt used his money to save as much of his money as he could.
Not disqualifying, but the whole picture underscores the ass-backwardness of a system where Romney pays 14% while middle class earners (not mere dividend recipients) pay a much higher rate.
And since Romney wants to increase taxes on those making less than 50k, while giving people like himself an even bigger break, it raises questions of integrity and sincerity over his concern for the little guy.
Romney will scream that Obama wants to punish his success, which is a giant load of shit. Politicians don't want higher taxes on rich people because they hate them; they want higher taxes on the rich because the rich are the ones who actually have all the money. Taxing the bottom 50% won't do a much good--they only control 2% of the nation's wealth, not enough to make much difference deficit wise.
| 139 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 9:58:27pm |
re: #137 austin_blue
If you want to put meat in the freezer, a handgun isn't going to feed the bulldog. A nice 30.06 or 7mm will fill the bill. I've always liked the 7.62 NATO as a hunting round, personally. My rifle is an ancient H&K 91. Great gun.
But that's just me.
I've got a Dan Wesson .357 pistol pack, and even with the 8" barrel, it's a useless hunting gun unless you scare up a feral hog in a draw. And you better be good or that pig will tear out your asshole.
And yes, I'm a Texas Democrat. And a vet. Take that, Teabaggers.
My rifles are 7x57 or .30-30. I'm actually working up a custom 7x57 carbine based on a VZ-24 action. That said, the revolver is for on my hip while I carry said rifle. I've seen too many other idiots not put the bullet or shotgun slug in the right place to not want to have a serious hand gun along for a Coup de grâce. My own shooting has, so far, been better than that but why not cover the base?
Wisconsin Democrat :)
Ever check out the Liberal Gun Club?
| 140 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:00:35pm |
re: #139 wlewisiii
I would love to get a gun, but the Asperger's Syndrome would show on a background check.
Think that hurts me.
| 141 |
Lidane Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:02:15pm |
re: #133 Stanley Sea
eclecticbrotha @eclecticbrotha
Remember, kids: Radical Jihadists are less than 90 miles from our shores. AT THE COPA, COPA CABANA! THE HOTTEST SPOT NORTH OF HAVANA!
His name was Gingrich, he was a sleazeball
With yellow teeth and short white hair and an ego out to there
He would meet women and then divorce them
And while they tried to understand, Newt would always go too far
And on that old House floor, they dropped 84
But he still paid bank on the last one
Who could ask for more?
| 143 |
austin_blue Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:05:08pm |
re: #139 wlewisiii
My rifles are 7x57 or .30-30. I'm actually working up a custom 7x57 carbine based on a VZ-24 action. That said, the revolver is for on my hip while I carry said rifle. I've seen too many other idiots not put the bullet or shotgun slug in the right place to not want to have a serious hand gun along for a Coup de grâce. My own shooting has, so far, been better than that but why not cover the base?
Wisconsin Democrat :)
Ever check out the Liberal Gun Club?
Nah, I'm not much of a "joiner", in that sense. I'm not really a gun guy. They're just tools if you need them. Like a socket set. I do love venison and boar, though. Thank you Mr. Pig!
| 144 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:07:58pm |
re: #140 ProLifeLiberal
I would love to get a gun, but the Asperger's Syndrome would show on a background check.
Think that hurts me.
Why would it show? Have you ever committed a felony level crime or been adjudicated as mentally ill or a domestic threat? I would suggest a very good and careful instructor for someone with your issues, but I can't see why, off the top of my head, you should be considered inherently ineligible.
Now, if _you_ feel you are unsafe with a firearm, that is a separate issue and you should listen to your own heart then. But short of that, I'd say it's more a matter of someone who understands how you learn and is willing to work with it than it is anything else.
You are just as permitted to be able to defend your person as any other citizen.
| 145 |
austin_blue Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:10:28pm |
re: #144 wlewisiii
Why would it show? Have you ever committed a felony level crime or been adjudicated as mentally ill or a domestic threat? I would suggest a very good and careful instructor for someone with your issues, but I can't see why, off the top of my head, you should be considered inherently ineligible.
Now, if _you_ feel you are unsafe with a firearm, that is a separate issue and you should listen to your own heart then. But short of that, I'd say it's more a matter of someone who understands how you learn and is willing to work with it than it is anything else.
You are just as permitted to be able to defend your person as any other citizen.
Good post.
| 146 |
ProGunLiberal Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:10:58pm |
re: #144 wlewisiii
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I thought mental defect (and, from my perspective, AS is one) would be required to be known about.
| 147 |
BishopX Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:13:28pm |
re: #146 ProLifeLiberal
They really only care if you've been ordered committed. Lots of people aren't exactly neurotypical and get by just fine with guns.
| 148 |
SanFranciscoZionist Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:16:27pm |
re: #146 ProLifeLiberal
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I thought mental defect (and, from my perspective, AS is one) would be required to be known about.
I don't think so. If you can have a driver's license, I don't see an issue with a gun permit. Don't take my word for it, but I can't think of anything about Aspergers that would specifically make it undesireable for you to get a gun. And I don't think Aspergers would show up on a background check at all, unless you were being vetted for the CIA or something.
| 149 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:17:00pm |
re: #140 ProLifeLiberal
I would love to get a gun, but the Asperger's Syndrome would show on a background check.
Asperger's by itself won't disqualify you. You'll only be disqualified if you've "been adjudicated mentally defective or been committed to a mental institution?" (ATF form 4) Otherwise you're good to go.
| 150 |
austin_blue Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:18:17pm |
re: #146 ProLifeLiberal
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I thought mental defect (and, from my perspective, AS is one) would be required to be known about.
My next door neighbor is a retired Army bird Colonel (Tanker) who is classic Asperger's. We get along right well, as we have a lot of stuff in common. Asperger's isn't a mental deficit, it's a mental difference. He's as smart as a whip, just socially challenged, especially in large groups, where he just goes quiet. Life of the party? No. Funny as hell one-on-one? You betcha.
| 151 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:21:39pm |
re: #146 ProLifeLiberal
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I thought mental defect (and, from my perspective, AS is one) would be required to be known about.
If you ever visit Wisconsin, I would be happy to take you out to a range. As a former NCO, you would be treated as my soldiers were (or, for that matter, as my son is). As long as you're willing I would be as well.
It tends to be a right wing meme, but there is a certain level of truth to the idea that citizens are only those willing to stay free, despite the consequences.
If not, you are, at best, just a serf.
| 152 |
austin_blue Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:27:25pm |
re: #151 wlewisiii
If you ever visit Wisconsin, I would be happy to take you out to a range. As a former NCO, you would be treated as my soldiers were (or, for that matter, as my son is). As long as you're willing I would be as well.
It tends to be a right wing meme, but there is a certain level of truth to the idea that citizens are only those willing to stay free, despite the consequences.
If not, you are, at best, just a serf.
My man, you would fit right right in here in South Austin. Robert la Follette is something of a hero down here.
And it's bed time for gonzo. Nighty night.
| 153 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:29:55pm |
re: #114 WindUpBird
Feel however you want about Crowley, violently disagree with whatever he's said you like, but he's not a stupid person, that's simply factually incorrect
Stupid or not he was a disseminator of wacky woo, and as such, an Enemy of Reality.
| 154 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:31:39pm |
| 155 |
goddamnedfrank Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:33:45pm |
re: #146 ProLifeLiberal
Thanks. I'll keep it in mind. I thought mental defect (and, from my perspective, AS is one) would be required to be known about.
Aspergers as a medical diagnosis is completely independent from the legal definition of mental defect. When the ATF form asks if you've been adjudicated mentally defective they're asking if you've ever avoided prosecution due to an inability to understand court proceedings, been a ward as an adult, can't sign binding contracts, etc.
| 157 |
Alexzander Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:38:47pm |
Curse my schedule. Night shift with Mondays and Tuesdays off. Tonight is my Saturday. woooo!
| 158 |
William Barnett-Lewis Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:41:34pm |
re: #157 Alexzander
Curse my schedule. Night shift with Mondays and Tuesdays off. Tonight is my Saturday. wooo!
That's ok. You can make it up by going up thread and updinging every post I made...
What?
| 159 |
Alexzander Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:47:53pm |
re: #158 wlewisiii
That's ok. You can make it up by going up thread and updinging every post I made...
What?
But these updings don't come for free!
..
Wait they do?
| 160 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:48:56pm |
re: #159 Alexzander
Pr0n is free. Updings cost.
| 161 |
Alexzander Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:54:20pm |
| 162 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Jan 23, 2012 10:55:01pm |
re: #161 Alexzander
Absurd. You win one upding.
| 164 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Mon, Jan 23, 2012 11:09:08pm |
| 165 |
Altermite Mon, Jan 23, 2012 11:14:44pm |
How was the debate? I was happily exploring bars in philadelphia, and missed that it occured. Romney manage to look strong on any positions?
| 166 |
Alexzander Mon, Jan 23, 2012 11:18:53pm |
re: #165 Altermite
How was the debate? I was happily exploring bars in philadelphia, and missed that it occured. Romney manage to look strong on any positions?
I'm watching it now.
Romney is trying to nail Gingrich with a variety of historical embarrassments.
But Romney is failing so far - he gets flustered everytime he had to defend himself. Gingrich on the other hand, slows things down and sounds definitive. Romney should be able to nail this but he cant.
| 168 |
Alexzander Mon, Jan 23, 2012 11:50:26pm |
Guys slow down with the posting - I'm trying to keep the narrative together.
| 170 |
engineer cat Tue, Jan 24, 2012 12:22:10am |
cartman on south park is reminding me of gingrich right now
"well, that's exactly what i expected you to say, kenny"
| 172 |
Eclectic Infidel Tue, Jan 24, 2012 1:33:33am |
It was a mind numbing experience. On that note, I should have been in bed two hours ago yet find myself drawn to reading useless material on the Internets.
e.g.,
THE FIVE ORDERS OF DISCORDIA ("THEM")
5th Order - The Sacred Order of THE DEFAMATION LEAGUE. Not much is known about the D.L., but they are very ancient and quite possibly were founded by Greyface himself. It is known that they now have absolute domination over all organized churches in the world. It is also believed that they have been costuming cabbages and passing them off as human beings.
(re: Don't let THEM immanentize the Eschaton.)
---
Anyway, as soon as I read about the cabbages being passed off as human, I thought of this latest clown show.
That is all. Heading off to bed. Now.
| 175 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:13:34am |
Morning all--
4AM here in Central AL. I've got an unfamiliar laptop and situational insomnia. Looks like the debate was enlightening.
| 176 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:41:03am |
First time in a couple days I've been at a computer or even TV for more than a few minutes--totally out of touch. What happened w/ albusteve? Temporary, I hope.
| 177 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:42:11am |
re: #176 Decatur Deb
Not sure, It happened in the evening. I'm rarely on after mid-afternoon.
| 178 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:42:24am |
re: #176 Decatur Deb
What happened w/ albusteve?
He was in one of those moods and got smitten.
Temporary, I hope.
Vewy unlikely.
| 179 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:42:38am |
re: #175 Decatur Deb
I used to be a terrible insomniac. I don't really know what changed. Now I sleep 4-6 hours a night and feel great about it.
I also am all happy and chipper right when I wake up.
| 180 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:43:57am |
re: #176 Decatur Deb
He was just being a dick for no reason again, and Charles finally got sick of giving him a pass. I feel bad for him, but when someone is being purposefully annoying whatchagonnado?
| 181 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:45:33am |
re: #176 Decatur Deb
re: #177 RogueOne
This thread, from the start:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 182 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:46:34am |
re: #180 Obdicut
He was just being a dick for no reason again, and Charles finally got sick of giving him a pass. I feel bad for him, but when someone is being purposefully annoying whatchagonnado?
Sad. He made it a good way back in the last year or so.
| 183 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:53:04am |
Have I recommended Dr. McNinja already to everyone?
[Link: drmcninja.com...]
He's a doctor who's a ninja. It's complicated.
| 184 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:53:48am |
re: #183 Obdicut
Oy. Thanks.
| 185 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:54:38am |
re: #180 Obdicut
but when someone is being purposefully annoying whatchagonnado?
Suicide by Charles. /
| 186 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:55:12am |
re: #184 Sergey Romanov
I linked to where the series goes full-color, but the black-and-white ones are definitely worth reading too.
| 187 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:56:18am |
re: #172 eclectic infidel
+1 for principia discordia
| 188 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:02:42am |
In which I get to say "I told you so" about Kagan being an Alito clone:
Reactions to Jones v. United States: The government fared much better than everyone realizes
[Link: www.scotusblog.com...]
One of the puzzles of the case is why other liberal members of the Court (Justices Ginsburg, Breyer, and Kagan) join in Justice Alito’s rejection of the majority’s finding that the installation of the GPS device is a “search.” Like Justice Sotomayor, they could have agreed with Scalia on the installation and Alito on the long-term monitoring. I think that the answer is probably a principled one about doctrine. Justice Scalia’s “trespass” theory, they may believe, is a vehicle towards narrowing privacy rights. Justice Sotomayor was apparently persuaded by Scalia’s unequivocal statement that privacy expectations are properly measured by both his trespass analogy and more modern assessments of reasonable expectations of privacy. I’m unclear on why the remainder of the Court’s left was not. The liberals may have concluded that Alito has the better reading of the cases, and because they are less naturally inclined towards property rights, they were swayed by the questions of administrability he raises.
Sotomayor has been getting a lot of good reviews for her seperate concurrance which this piece includes:
A final note. I think that it will be a long time before people realize that this is one of Justice Sotomayor’s most significant opinions. Justice Thomas has received significant recognition for his willingness to rethink broad areas of the law. Today, Justice Sotomayor indicated her interest in “reconsider[ing] the premise” established in several Supreme Court decisions “that an individual has no reasonable expectation of privacy in information voluntarily disclosed to third parties.” Op. at 5. Of course, their approaches are almost diametrically opposed – Justice Thomas is concerned with the meaning of the Constitution around 1812, while Justice Sotomayor would adapt it to “the digital age” of 2012. The way their views develop and the influence they gain will be fascinating.
| 189 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:06:51am |
| 190 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:08:38am |
re: #186 Obdicut
Have you read Schlock Mercenary?
| 191 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:09:18am |
re: #189 Sergey Romanov
Yeah, I wasn't fond of the Kagan nomination. She's Alito's lost twin.
I think the President is entitled to put whomever they choose on the court (as long as they aren't a Nazi or felon) but I'm also allowed to bitch about it. I'm still bitching...//
| 192 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:11:07am |
re: #191 RogueOne
Wait wait wait. You don't like Alito? Why? What other conservative SC judges you don't like?
| 194 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:20:51am |
re: #190 Sergey Romanov
Yeah. It's funny, but the art style isn't really my fave and a lot of the strips are just people hanging around talking.
I can't think of a better webcomic out there than McNinja, either from a story or art standpoint. Except maybe Dresden Codak.
[Link: dresdencodak.com...]
| 195 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:21:34am |
re: #192 Sergey Romanov
No, I didn't like the Alito nomination at all either. This might come as a shock but I'm not actually fond of many of the members of the court. In my own personal opinion they're all too pro-federal. Scalia and Thomas occassionally come through on individual civil rights when it comes to criminal law but not often enough for me to be a cheerleader and while I would expect the left side of the court to be the leaders on those individual rights it seems when those rights butt up against the perceived power of the feds they'll almost always side with the feds.
Take this ruling from yesterday. There was only 1 member of the court was willing to say (paraphrased) "maybe peoples cars and movements should be considered private". Just one justice out of 9. The writer of the article suggests that Scalia might concur but he didn't take the time to actually say it so who knows.
It might be interesting to see if Thomas and Sotomayor find some way to work together. That could be fun.
| 196 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:24:07am |
Good Morning Honcos!
Saw a new Camaro with the following license plate: KOP B8.
| 197 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:24:53am |
re: #195 RogueOne
Thomas consistently rules for expanded police powers and against the rights of the accused, with incredibly rare exceptions. No clue why you think he'd ally with Sotomayor.
| 198 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:25:01am |
Spot the irony. Odessa Svyato-Iversky male monastery choir sings an Orthodox song in an ... un-Orthodox way ;)
| 199 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:26:18am |
re: #198 Sergey Romanov
They look like they should be called "Six Uncomfortable Men".
| 201 |
Tigger2005 Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:29:27am |
| 202 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:32:58am |
re: #199 Obdicut
They look like they should be called "Six Uncomfortable Men".
Not only Orthodox choirs sing old Jewish songs, they also like American music. Here's a Belgorod choir consisting of priests:
| 203 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:36:36am |
re: #202 Sergey Romanov
would like to see them do a swing number, like "Putin on the Ritz".
| 204 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:36:54am |
re: #201 Tigger2005
I don't want to know how you know that.
They were riffing Anchorman quotes earlier in the thread. So....yeah.
| 205 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:37:42am |
re: #203 ralphieboy
would like to see them do a swing number, like "Putin on the Ritz".
Ouch.
Why do Eskimos wash their clothes in Tide?
Cause it's too cold Out Tide.
| 206 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:38:11am |
re: #203 ralphieboy
Well, that's taking it too far. Status Quo parody will have to do.
| 207 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:39:36am |
re: #206 Sergey Romanov
What's up with the little Satan beard that dude on the left has? Has he been checked for marks of the devil and stuff?
| 208 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:41:01am |
Ooops:
NYPD Commits Navy SEAL For Claiming To Be A Navy SEAL
[Link: gothamist.com...]
The NYPD committed a Virginia man claiming to be a Navy SEAL to a psych ward, and later found out that he was in fact a Navy SEAL.....
According to the Post's sources, 29-year-old Shaun Day, on a two-week leave, was stopped for running a red light at Second Ave. and East 26th street on Thursday. After police found a 9mm semiautomatic handgun and ammunition in his pickup truck, they arrested him for gun possession. Despite his claims that he had "top-secret clearance" and that he was a Navy SEAL, the police source said cops thought Day was "rambling incoherently" and committed him to Bellevue Hospital for observation.
Apparently Day couldn't provide proof of his SEAL status, and because he was so emphatic, he underwent observation for a day. "He was released [Friday] in their care, and they were going to treat him for post-traumatic stress," the source told the paper. All charges against Day have been deferred, and it's unclear how he was able to prove his status.
| 209 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:45:44am |
re: #208 RogueOne
Ooops:
NYPD Commits Navy SEAL For Claiming To Be A Navy SEAL
[Link: gothamist.com...]
Wonder how they determined probable cause to search his vehicle after running a red light.
| 210 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:45:57am |
Here is the problem with making your police force into a domestic surveillance agency:
NYPD File On Slain Cyclist Contains Photos Of Family, None Of Crash Scene
On Friday, the NYPD finally released the documents pertaining to the investigation of the death of cyclist Mathieu Lefevre. According to a statement released today by Lefevre's mother, the files show that the driver of the truck, Leonardo Degianni, made a right turn without signaling, "knocked Mathieu 40 feet, left him for dead, and then dragged his bicycle another 130 feet before depositing it and driving off." Incredibly, there are no photos of the scene of the incident in the NYPD's file because "the investigators' camera was broken." However, the file does contain "numerous" photos of the Lefevre family and their attorney, prompting Erika Lefevre to write, "Apparently, NYPD cares more about investigating our family's efforts to get information from it, than about properly investigating Mathieu's death."
Seriously, no photos of the crime scene? Your camera is broken? Get another fucking camera. Go buy one. That's fucking ridiculous.
And then, to begin covering their ass because the people are trying to get some justice, to start investigating the family of the victim. Fucking stupid.
| 211 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:47:13am |
re: #208 RogueOne
It's the ultimate nightmare. Arrested for claiming to be who you are.
| 212 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:47:31am |
re: #208 RogueOne
Ooops:
NYPD Commits Navy SEAL For Claiming To Be A Navy SEAL
[Link: gothamist.com...]
My brother was telling me about meeting a SEAL who told him some of the cool top secret stuff he did. My response: You didn't meet a real SEAL.
| 213 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:50:11am |
re: #212 rwdflynavy
I know an ex-SEAL. He tells people he was a swimming instructor in the Navy. I only found out at his (small) wedding.
This is because he hates two questions:
"What's it like being a SEAL?"
"Did you ever kill anyone?"
| 214 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:50:34am |
re: #211 Obdicut
It's the ultimate nightmare. Arrested for claiming to be who you are.
He wasn't arrested for that though.
| 215 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:53:12am |
re: #214 Sergey Romanov
He wasn't arrested for that though.
True. I should have said "Committed for claiming to be who you are". My bad.
The arrest itself may be completely valid. Just having clearance doesn't mean you get to roam around with weapons. I don't know what the law is exactly for active-duty military personnel, but I really don't think you just get a free pass.
| 216 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:54:05am |
re: #213 Obdicut
I know an ex-SEAL. He tells people he was a swimming instructor in the NAVY. I only found out at his (small) wedding.
This is because he hates two questions:
"What's it like being a SEAL?"
"Did you ever kill anyone?"
I have had the pleasure of working with many SEALs during my career. To a man they have been the most humble, friendly and professional folks you could ever meet.
My personal opinion is that they appear humble due to the amount of time they spend planning how to kill every person in the room and make it look like an accident.
//
| 217 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:54:30am |
re: #215 Obdicut
Yep. If he thought that simply saying he was a SEAL would prevent problems... bad thinking.
| 218 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:54:56am |
re: #215 Obdicut
True. I should have said "Committed for claiming to be who you are". My bad.
The arrest itself may be completely valid. Just having clearance doesn't mean you get to roam around with weapons. I don't know what the law is exactly for active-duty military personnel, but I really don't think you just get a free pass.
You get no pass. You still need a CCW which in NYC, ain't happening.
| 219 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:55:37am |
re: #212 rwdflynavy
My brother was telling me about meeting a SEAL who told him some of the cool top secret stuff he did. My response: You didn't meet a real SEAL.
Everytime I meet someone who tells me they were "special forces" or a SEAL a little warning bell goes off in my head. I had the opportunity to meet a bunch of those types and I've met exactly 1 real SEAL and I only knew he was a SEAL because a naval officer (his brother) told me about it. His brother had never mentioned it to me.
| 220 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:55:51am |
re: #218 rwdflynavy
I'm betting the SEALs aren't going to be happy about one of their own trying to use his status in this manner, either.
| 221 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:56:07am |
re: #220 Obdicut
I'm betting the SEALs aren't going to be happy about one of their own trying to use his status in this manner, either.
Nope.
| 222 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:57:12am |
re: #218 rwdflynavy
You get no pass. You still need a CCW which in NYC, ain't happening.
In a lot of ways, the US military is fairly unfriendly toward the concept of individual gun rights.
| 223 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:58:10am |
re: #219 RogueOne
Everytime I meet someone who tells me they were "special forces" or a SEAL a little warning bell goes off in my head. I had the opportunity to meet a bunch of those types and I've met exactly 1 real SEAL and I only knew he was a SEAL because a naval officer (his brother) told me about it. His brother had never mentioned it to me.
Especially if they tell you they were SF and their service record was burned up in a Pentagon fire.//
| 224 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:59:22am |
re: #223 rwdflynavy
Especially if they tell you they were SF and their service record was burned up in a Pentagon fire.//
"Dog ated my SEAL paperz!"//
| 225 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:59:24am |
re: #222 rwdflynavy
There are few places more restrictive about carrying weapons than military bases, from what my military friends tell me.
Along with stuff like my friend who got disciplined for carrying his weapon in an overly casual manner. He was boot-tired after something and was dragging it by the muzzle, which apparently is what it takes to make a 50 year old drill sergeant scream like he just saw Justin Beiber going down on his wife.
| 226 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:59:48am |
re: #222 rwdflynavy
In a lot of ways, the US military is fairly unfriendly toward the concept of individual gun rights.
I heard a bit on AFN that there are rules prohibiting servicepersons with a record of domestic violence from carrying a sidearm.
So you can still drive a tank, operate a missile battery or pilot an attack helicopter, but you can't carry a pistol...
| 227 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:00:15am |
re: #222 rwdflynavy
In a lot of ways, the US military is fairly unfriendly toward the concept of individual gun rights.
The chief air crewman that went down with his plane in afghanistan last week was a buddy of my brother. When he applied for the presidential flight crew the secret service came to my shop to interview my brother because they had a "gun" charge against them that had been dropped and they wanted to know wtf had happened. It was a BB gun. They had gotten drunk and were shooting each other and someone called the base police on them. They don't have any sense of humor when it comes to guns of any type.
| 228 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:01:55am |
re: #226 ralphieboy
I heard a bit on AFN that there are rules prohibiting servicepersons with a record of domestic violence from carrying a sidearm.
So you can still drive a tank, operate a missile battery or pilot an attack helicopter, but you can't carry a pistol...
Yep. I forget the amendment (named after some Congresscritter). If you have any domestic violence dispute of any kind you can't carry a weapon or be around them. Kinda puts a crimp in a military career depending on the MOS/rating.
| 229 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:05:03am |
re: #227 RogueOne
Did he get on the Prez crew?
| 230 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:08:02am |
re: #229 Sergey Romanov
Did he get on the Prez crew?
Yes, during the Clinton administration. They knew the particulars of what had happened before they showed up but they have to cross every t and dot every i.
My brother didn't know why they were coming, they called the shop to tell us they were on the way to talk to him and my brother had a panic attack. He had just gotten out and he brought home quite a few "souveniers" that he had displayed all over the shop. He was running around trying to hide everything before they got there. Was funny.
| 231 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:09:18am |
re: #230 RogueOne
Yes, during the Clinton administration. They knew the particulars of what had happened before they showed up but they have to cross every t and dot every i.
My brother didn't know why they were coming, they called the shop to tell us they were on the way to talk to him and my brother had a panic attack. He had just gotten out and he brought home quite a few "souveniers" that he had displayed all over the shop. He was running around trying to hide everything before they got there. Was funny.
Apropos of nothing, I'm reading a really good novel about the Vietnam war called Matterhorn.
| 232 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:09:32am |
re: #230 RogueOne
Sorry for prying, but I didn't get the souvenirs ref. (Don't answer if ...)
| 233 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:11:18am |
re: #231 rwdflynavy
Apropos of nothing, I'm reading a really good novel about the Vietnam war called Matterhorn.
Huh. I'm reading a really great novel about the Swiss Alps called "Vietnam".
| 234 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:11:54am |
re: #231 rwdflynavy
Apropos of nothing, I'm reading a really good novel about the Vietnam war called Matterhorn.
Should be good preparatory material for my industry study trip to Ho Chi Min city in May.
//
| 235 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:13:04am |
re: #232 Sergey Romanov
Sorry for prying, but I didn't get the souvenirs ref. (Don't answer if ...)
Everything he could get his hands on including his entire flight suit including all the emergency kits he could grab. My brother is a nut. He managed to "find" a mannequin and he had it all decked out in his office wearing the flight suit and a holding a big flag. He was starting his own little marine museum.
| 236 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:13:45am |
re: #234 rwdflynavy
Should be good preparatory material for my industry study trip to Ho Chi Min city in May.
//
You really going?
| 237 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:14:27am |
re: #235 RogueOne
LOL. Neat :)
| 238 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:15:44am |
| 239 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:16:35am |
re: #238 rwdflynavy
Yep, also Hong Kong and Beijing. Thank you tax payers!!
We will have our own Manchurian Lizard!!1 ///
| 240 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:17:10am |
re: #239 Sergey Romanov
We will have our own Manchurian Lizard!!1 ///
If you go carrying pictures of Chairman Mao, you ain't gonna make it with anyone anyhow.
| 241 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:17:47am |
re: #237 Sergey Romanov
LOL. Neat :)
Marines are, umm, "different". Even those that don't buy into the whole marine mythos still take the "once a marine, always a marine" stuff pretty seriously.
| 242 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:18:55am |
re: #241 RogueOne
Marines are, umm, "different". Even those that don't buy into the whole marine mythos still take the "once a marine, always a marine" stuff pretty seriously.
Marines are hands down the best salesman in the military.
| 243 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:22:06am |
re: #242 rwdflynavy
Marines are hands down the best salesman in the military.
You have to hand it to them. Most of them actually believe the stuff. They also seem to find a way to take care of each other once they're out. Whenever we've needed a favor from a company my brother always manages to find a former marine to help us out.
| 244 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:23:20am |
| 245 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:24:45am |
re: #244 Sergey Romanov
Was that the female punk band that you posted about a few months back?
| 246 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:25:52am |
re: #245 RogueOne
Was that the female punk band that you posted about a few months back?
Good memory. Recently they had an action at the Red Square:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
| 247 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:27:02am |
I calculated the amount of money that I am going to have to pay the caterers for my daughter's wedding. This is without the taxes and gratuities and wait staff and rental of the hall.
I had a panic attack.
| 248 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:28:12am |
re: #247 Alouette
My wife and I did a lot of the cooking for our own wedding, along with family and friends. It was hectic, and meant that we were up until 1:00 in the morning cooking before the wedding, but it saved a bucketload of money.
| 249 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:30:29am |
re: #247 Alouette
Let the guests be sustained by happiness and imbibe joy! //
| 250 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:32:01am |
re: #246 Sergey Romanov
Good memory. Recently they had an action at the Red Square:
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
Not sure about the memory part but I have a thing for punk rock girls. What guy doesn't like girls with purple hair and combat boots?
| 251 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:32:45am |
re: #250 RogueOne
Not sure about the memory part but I have a thing for punk rock girls. What guy doesn't like girls with purple hair and combat boots?
But what if they rail against male chauvinistic pigs? //
| 252 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:33:40am |
| 253 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:34:35am |
re: #251 Sergey Romanov
But what if they rail against male chauvinistic pigs? //
If they don't want me eyeballing them they'll stop dressing like that!// ....and nazi punk girls, no one likes those either:
Janie is a Nazi:
| 254 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:41:58am |
Super Bowl XLVI Odds: Patriots favored by 3.5
[Link: eye-on-football.blogs.cbssports.com...]
Currently, the over/under for the Super Bowl is a whopping 55.5 points according to Sportsbook
The 3.5 must mean that a lot more people are betting on the Pats. I was planning on skipping betting on the winner and just betting on the over/under but that 55.5 pts is huge. I think I'm going to skip betting on the game all together this year.
| 255 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:44:39am |
re: #248 Obdicut
My wife and I did a lot of the cooking for our own wedding, along with family and friends. It was hectic, and meant that we were up until 1:00 in the morning cooking before the wedding, but it saved a bucketload of money.
We have to use one of the caterers that are approved by the venue.
| 256 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:45:57am |
re: #249 Sergey Romanov
Let the guests be sustained by happiness and imbibe joy! //
I am so happy the groom's family is paying for the liquor!
| 257 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:46:00am |
re: #255 Alouette
We have to use one of the caterers that are approved by the venue.
Yeah, we were also lucky that my parents house in San Francisco was big enough for the reception. We only had like 90 people though.
It was a great wedding, in the end.
| 258 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:46:13am |
re: #255 Alouette
We have to use one of the caterers that are approved by the venue.
That's what I ran into. We were allowed to do our own decorating (which we did) but we had to use one of their caterers. It ended up costing a little more money but it was a lot less stressful.
| 259 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:47:25am |
re: #257 Obdicut
Yeah, we were also lucky that my parents house in San Francisco was big enough for the reception. We only had like 90 people though.
It was a great wedding, in the end.
I was married in my parents' backyard in a DIY hippie wedding. But it was in August. You don't do backyard weddings in February.
| 260 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:47:39am |
re: #250 RogueOne
What guy doesn't like girls with purple hair and combat boots?
Purple hair - punks and Martians.
| 261 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:48:14am |
re: #259 Alouette
We got a sunny day in the Presidio for our wedding, which is fucking amazing.
| 262 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:49:01am |
re: #261 Obdicut
We got a sunny day in the Presidio for our wedding, which is fucking amazing.
My daughter is getting married in Brooklyn.
| 263 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:51:38am |
re: #259 Alouette
I was married in my parents' backyard in a DIY hippie wedding. But it was in August. You don't do backyard weddings in February.
My best friends family built a big gazebo in the folks backyard for their wedding. When she got pregnant and they had to move the wedding date up his dad insisted they were still doing it in the gazebo. "I built the damn thing, you're using it!". A middle of january outdoor wedding in Indiana. The wind was blowing so hard you couldn't hear anything on the video, all the pics turned out bad, everyone was freezing, it was awful.
| 265 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:52:31am |
re: #264 Shropshire_Slasher
I always cry at weddings.
Me too. It's sad to see a good man go down like that.
| 266 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:53:25am |
re: #258 RogueOne
That's what I ran into. We were allowed to do our own decorating (which we did) but we had to use one of their caterers. It ended up costing a little more money but it was a lot less stressful.
NY weddings, at least in our community, are pretty much "by the book." There is some leeway but not much, and certain protocols have to be followed.
Since my other daughters were married in Detroit, the community has different traditions and customs. My daughter explained that some of the stuff we do in Detroit is not done in NY.
| 267 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:53:53am |
re: #264 Shropshire_Slasher
I always cry at weddings.
Only people crying at my wedding were my in-laws...
| 268 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:54:32am |
re: #259 Alouette
I was married in my parents' backyard in a DIY hippie wedding. But it was in August. You don't do backyard weddings in February.
Especially in Dearborn Michigan!
| 269 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:55:02am |
re: #263 RogueOne
My best friends family built a big gazebo in the folks backyard for their wedding. When she got pregnant and they had to move the wedding date up his dad insisted they were still doing it in the gazebo. "I built the damn thing, you're using it!". A middle of january outdoor wedding in Indiana. The wind was blowing so hard you couldn't hear anything on the video, all the pics turned out bad, everyone was freezing, it was awful.
My second daughter had an outdoor ceremony in freaking February. However the venue had a nice big picture window and they set up chairs and outdoor mikes so that the guests could enjoy the ceremony from inside.
| 270 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:55:46am |
re: #263 RogueOne
seems like they could have saved the gazebo for the baby's christening...
| 271 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:55:48am |
re: #268 rwdflynavy
Especially in Dearborn Michigan!
The Dearborn Hyatt Regency is like the most expensive venue in town. I could totally not afford that!
| 272 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:55:55am |
re: #266 Alouette
NY weddings, at least in our community, are pretty much "by the book." There is some leeway but not much, and certain protocols have to be followed.
Since my other daughters were married in Detroit, the community has different traditions and customs. My daughter explained that some of the stuff we do in Detroit is not done in NY.
I bet not. Some of the stuff they do in Detroit they don't do anywhere else////
| 273 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:56:48am |
re: #272 RogueOne
I bet not. Some of the stuff they do in Detroit they don't do anywhere else///
We LOVE our customs and traditions! Eating the weak and making necklaces out of their finger bones.
| 274 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 4:59:17am |
re: #270 ralphieboy
seems like they could have saved the gazebo for the baby's christening...
It was a bad idea all the way around. The dresses they had picked were for a summer wedding so they made hooded cloaks for the bridesmaids to wear. They all looked like little red riding hood.
On the video you can see me talking to him as the bride was coming down the aisle. You can't tell what I was saying but he was laughing. I was telling him it wasn't too late. "you say the word and I can get you out of here".
| 275 |
RogueOne Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:01:23am |
re: #273 Alouette
We LOVE our customs and traditions! Eating the weak and making necklaces out of their finger bones.
That's sort of the saying on my 65 yr old mothers favorite t-shirt.
| 277 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:19:05am |
I'm feeling a little, ooh, anxious...
-Beetlejuice
| 279 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:21:06am |
re: #274 RogueOne
My little brother was my best man... at the entrance to the altar... he stood there dangling his car keys in front of me... "Last chance" he kept repeating.
| 280 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:21:29am |
Well, Romney's tax returns proved about what I figured: Fucker pays a lower tax rate than I do, and banks his money offshore.
How goddamn patriotic of him.
| 282 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:22:43am |
re: #280 Obdicut
Well, Romney's tax returns proved about what I figured: Fucker pays a lower tax rate than I do, and banks his money offshore.
How goddamn patriotic of him.
Living proof of what "trickle-down" economics actually gives us...
| 283 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:23:28am |
re: #279 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My little brother was my best man... at the entrance to the altar... he stood there dangling his car keys in front of me... "Last chance" he kept repeating.
It's apparently a tradition in my wife's family that whenever someone gets married, right before the ceremony is about to begin, one of the brothers approaches the groom and says something to the effect of, "If you're not 100% sure about this, I have the car keys and we can be 100 miles from here before anybody notices. You just let me know."
| 284 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:24:43am |
re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
He breaking the law?
laws are made for people like him so they can do what they do and still get away with it.
| 285 |
Flounder Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:26:01am |
re: #280 Obdicut
I received my W-2 yesterday, it makes me ill to look at the total taxes I paid during the year, not including my local and school taxes. I'd have kittens if I was paying NYC taxes on top of that.
| 286 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:26:40am |
re: #285 Shropshire_Slasher
I received my W-2 yesterday, it makes me ill to look at the total taxes I paid during the year, not including my local and school taxes. I'd have kittens if I was paying NYC taxes on top of that.
more than 13.5%?
| 287 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:27:52am |
re: #285 Shropshire_Slasher
I received my W-2 yesterday, it makes me ill to look at the total taxes I paid during the year, not including my local and school taxes. I'd have kittens if I was paying NYC taxes on top of that.
The good news is, I'm getting about half of it back.
The bad news is, the government gets an interest-free loan on a pretty doggone good chunk of money for the better part of a year.
| 288 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:29:32am |
I watched an Obama ad last night which said that he has created 2.7 million jobs, how accurate is this?
| 289 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:30:23am |
Are they counting all new hires that occurred during Obama's first term in office? That would include my job.
| 290 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:31:20am |
re: #234 rwdflynavy
Should be good preparatory material for my industry study trip to Ho Chi Min city in May.
//
Enjoy the trip. I was there for a few days last July and it's an interesting city.
If you have an interest in military history and some extra time you should see if someone will take you up to Cu Chi to see the tunnels. (Though I see that as much cultural education about the Vietnamese as much as the military interest.)
| 291 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:31:55am |
re: #288 Alouette
I watched an Obama ad last night which said that he has created 2.7 million jobs, how accurate is this?
Inaccurate. See factcheck's frontpage for the link with analysis of the ad.
| 292 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:32:32am |
re: #281 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
He breaking the law?
Nope. Nor are a lot of other assholes and shitheads.
The lower tax rate I could barely forgive, if he donated a ton to charity and I kind of assume he does. Maybe I'm wrong. I'd rather we had a tax on investment that tied to inflation instead of the current system, but whatever.
But using foreign tax havens is something I really find contemptible. Sure, it's legal, but I'd like a lot of those loopholes to close. Hell, my grandfather, who was highly conservative when I knew him, railed about this. Especially when the US was at war.
People finessing everything to shit including moving money out of the USA in order to not pay taxes is like a guy who does only the bare minimum at work in order not to get fired. I think that guy's an asshole.
| 293 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:34:20am |
re: #270 ralphieboy
seems like they could have saved the gazebo for the baby's christening...
You still have to be on the lookout for ignorant adventurers though.
;)
| 294 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:38:26am |
re: #292 Obdicut
Wanna make a bet that Al Gore doesn't have some money in the Caymans? Michael Moore? Barbra Streisand? Kennedy's? Right wing fringies?
Common practice, and it is only logical to try to reduce your tax burden.
I don't see why people get their panties in a wad about it.
| 295 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:41:06am |
re: #294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Wanna make a bet that Al Gore doesn't have some money in the Caymans? Michael Moore? Barbra Streisand? Kennedy's? Right wing fringies?
And I think, consistently, that any of them do who are assholes.
Common practice, and it is only logical to try to reduce your tax burden.
To me, this is like saying "It's only logical to do the bare minimum at work that you have to in order to get paid". Fuck that.
I don't see why people get their panties in a wad about it.
Because it's terrible for the country. Because I hate slackers.
| 296 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:41:32am |
re: #292 Obdicut
Is the Caymans completely about Tax-sheltering or for investing is it as much about movement of money. I thought that gains in the Caymens had tax on them about the same rate as the US.
Personally? I have 43 dollars... so... I'm not really sure...
| 297 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:41:34am |
re: #294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Wanna make a bet that Al Gore doesn't have some money in the Caymans? Michael Moore? Barbra Streisand? Kennedy's? Right wing fringies?
Common practice, and it is only logical to try to reduce your tax burden.
I don't see why people get their panties in a wad about it.
Because it's the biggest dick move in the whole history of gaming the system. It's pretty much screaming, "Yeah, I'm an asshole who deliberately flouts tax law. Come at me."
| 298 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:42:35am |
Noam Chompsky owns a bunch of oil stock.
Asshole.
So does fucking Nader.
Asshole.
| 299 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:43:22am |
re: #294 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Wanna make a bet that Al Gore doesn't have some money in the Caymans? Michael Moore? Barbra Streisand? Kennedy's? Right wing fringies?
Common practice, and it is only logical to try to reduce your tax burden.
I don't see why people get their panties in a wad about it.
I think it's the hypocrisy. Politicians and others like wrapping themselves in the flag, ragging about patriotism, pulling our share of the load, etc. And then you look and there are these nice ways to hide money that essentially are only useful to the wealthy. And the effect of this is keeping *their* money away from helping fund the programs, departments, and military they tell us are so important in building and maintaining our culture and freedoms.
So we get told that we're all in it together and then it becomes obvious that it is not really government "of the people, by the people, and for the people."
| 300 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:44:19am |
re: #296 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Nope. Cayman's tax 0% on capital gains.
And the arrest you for revealing secrets about who owns what.
| 302 |
Killgore Trout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:47:50am |
re: #288 Alouette
I watched an Obama ad last night which said that he has created 2.7 million jobs, how accurate is this?
Misleading Claims in Obama’s First 2012 Spot
The ad states: “America’s clean-energy industry: 2.7 million jobs and expanding rapidly.”
The ad accurately cites figures from a report from the Brookings Institution, which estimated the “clean economy … employs some 2.7 million workers.” But the report cited a trend line that began long before Obama took office.
| 303 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:48:33am |
A lot of rich people who immigrate to the US first go to the Caymans and put their money into trusts where they can still access it but won't be taxed by the US.
People like that should not be allowed to immigrate.
| 304 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:49:07am |
My best friend make a very high income (I have no elastic in my underwear) he, every year buys a nature conservancy lease with gives him a tax credit for the entire amount that he buys...
Effectively pays zero state taxes.
I think it sucks. I've told him that.
But it's entirely legal.
These fuckers know how to game the system. I'd like to see the system pulled out from under them.
The only way to do that (that I can see)? Flat tax and kill deductions. That ain't gonna happen either.
| 306 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:52:45am |
re: #304 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Flat tax is just not workable. There's nothing about it, aside from simplicity, that makes any sense.
A simple graduated income tax, and a capital gains tax tied to inflation, would be great. And I agree that deductions are just endlessly reductive. If the government wants to fund something, it should fund it, directly, not with tax breaks that then turn into an entire industry.
| 307 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:53:44am |
re: #304 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
My best friend make a very high income (I have no elastic in my underwear) he, every year buys a nature conservancy lease with gives him a tax credit for the entire amount that he buys...
Effectively pays zero state taxes.
I think it sucks. I've told him that.
But it's entirely legal.
These fuckers know how to game the system. I'd like to see the system pulled out from under them.
The only way to do that (that I can see)? Flat tax and kill deductions. That ain't gonna happen either.
That sounds like my brother's proposed solution. Few or no deductions, graduated flat taxes, and fairly high "tariff" like taxes on luxury items (like yachts). Along with a sales tax that excludes basic foodstuffs and clothing.
| 308 |
Flounder Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:56:23am |
This happened under President Obama's watch, and I blame him:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Actually, it is easier than you think to make this mistake. They did a shitty job too.
| 309 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:58:36am |
re: #306 Obdicut
Flat tax is just not workable. There's nothing about it, aside from simplicity, that makes any sense.
A simple graduated income tax, and a capital gains tax tied to inflation, would be great. And I agree that deductions are just endlessly reductive. If the government wants to fund something, it should fund it, directly, not with tax breaks that then turn into an entire industry.
Tax deductions are annoying to me for two reasons:
1) They make something complicated for everyone in order to benefit just a few people - better to have a simple tax form and then people can apply for funding separately if they think they qualify.
2) They are a regressive way of enacting even progressive policies, since (2a) you have to be earning enough money to be paying the tax in the first place in order to benefit from the break, and (2b) poor people are less likely to know how to benefit from the break than the wealthy.
| 310 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 5:59:13am |
re: #307 oaktree
Then some smart asshole will figure out a way around that too, because the language will be infinity pages long.
What are basic food stuffs? Green peppers, but not red or yellow peppers?
Iceburg lettuce but not romaine?....
Clothing... Lees Jeans, but not Lucky Jeans?
I don't like "luxury taxes". They are a way to kill an industry.
Let a guy buy a yacht if he wants to. A lot of people benefit when a guy buys a yacht.
| 311 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:00:35am |
re: #308 Shropshire_Slasher
This happened under President Obama's watch, and I blame him:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Actually, it is easier than you think to make this mistake. They did a shitty job too.
I can understand misspelling School...that happens every few years somewhere...but X-NG? Shit.
| 312 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:01:29am |
re: #310 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I agree. We should subsidize food, through foodstamps and other programs, but tax breaks for it is needlessly complicated.
| 313 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:07:56am |
re: #312 Obdicut
If you buy packaged potato salad in Roanoke, 5% sales tax.
If you buy packaged potato salad in a deli, 9%?
Why? Because in the deli? It's eating out.
| 314 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:12:59am |
Taxes are like eating your greens.
As a person, you know that, if you just eat fried food and drink beer all the time, you won't last very long, and in fact your quality of life will go down. So you eat green vegetables and you exercise. But it's hard to do! So you make yourself little rules and follow them. No beer on a weeknight. I will run three miles at least twice a week. And so on. It seems silly - why not just do the right things? But it turns out that we need the rules in order to do the right thing.
As a society, we know that, if we just buy yachts (or steaks, or cars, or TVs) all the time, things will fall apart. Roads will crumble, kids won't get taught. There will be no nurses to look after us when we're old. So we make laws and pay taxes to pay for these things. 10% on electronic goods. 25% on luxury yachts. And so on. It seems silly (to some people) - why not just let people spend their money on the right things?
But it turns out that we need the rules in order to do the right thing.
[Link: www.google.com...]
| 315 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:17:10am |
Yep. If we overdo it then Elmer J Fudd will need to hunt rabbits to put food on the table due to his mansion and yacht being taxed too much for his income.
/
(Something to look at is how well large estates held out in England once there was a serious push to extend property taxes onto the nobility. And it was fought tooth and nail the whole way. But this is also a complex situation and not something to simply pass off as black/white.)
| 316 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:17:52am |
re: #314 iossarian
why not just let people spend their money on the right things?
Because it is not up to you to decide what are the "right things" for someone else to purchase with their money.
| 317 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:18:05am |
re: #314 iossarian
It's a good point, but Pigovian taxes on finished goods just distend the market. If we are going to get into taxation based on usefulness, we're going to need to have a long, long conversation about what the hell is in each category. Broad strokes won't do it.
| 318 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:22:41am |
re: #317 Obdicut
And I don't think we should. It's just deductions all over again. Then the lobbying will be to get yourself put into the 'useful' class.
Hell, think of something like a coal power plant. It's obviously useful. It's also incredibly harmful. We have a ton of industry that is like that, if you calculate the actual harm/benefit of the process, rather than just the finished good.
And if you are dealing with the finished good, are you taking into account quality? Because better-made things using durable materials are better than a load of crap knocked out that will fall apart overnight.
It's really, really complicated. The abstract idea is fine, but you'd need AI or something in order to manage it.
| 319 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:23:38am |
re: #316 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Because it is not up to you to decide what are the "right things" for someone else to purchase with their money.
There is a point on the spectrum between you deciding how to spend your money and me deciding how you spend your money, which is called "us agreeing on some things that we should both spend some money on". Obviously, precisely where that point lies is a hard argument to have. But it's interesting that many conservatives have no problem with deciding that everyone needs to chip in to a massive military industry.
re: #317 Obdicut
It's a good point, but Pigovian taxes on finished goods just distend the market. If we are going to get into taxation based on usefulness, we're going to need to have a long, long conversation about what the hell is in each category. Broad strokes won't do it.
I don't know about that, I think categorized sales taxes can work as a complement to an income tax system. There's more than one way to implement socially beneficial taxation. I do agree that there's a point at which the tax rate on goods (indeed on anything) reduces its own effectiveness though.
| 320 |
Decatur Deb Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:26:08am |
re: #313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If you buy packaged potato salad in Roanoke, 5% sales tax.
If you buy packaged potato salad in a deli, 9%?Why? Because in the deli? It's eating out.
If you buy raw potatoes in Alabama, it's 9% (except where it's 10%).
Why?
Because it's Alabama.
| 321 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:26:19am |
re: #308 Shropshire_Slasher
This happened under President Obama's watch, and I blame him:
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Actually, it is easier than you think to make this mistake. They did a shitty job too.
In fairness - when you are drawing or writing or painting letters in a huge size, or in a different sort of style than you would normally see, it's easy to make a mistake like this.
But yeah - somebody from the school should have noticed, particularly if the school is multi-story and somebody looked out a window, down to the street.
| 322 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:26:53am |
re: #313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
If you think it's complicated to figure out the taxes as a consumer, look at it from a retailer's perspective. If you have sit-down seating at that deli, you might be able to treat it at the lower rate, or not. It totally depends on the way the tax law is written to deal with those situations. A retailer would have to figure this out - and more often than you think would get hit with audits and assessments by the tax authorities to figure out what the proper rate is.
Instead of having a rate across the board on food sales, we get all kinds of chicanery by legislatures trying to raise revenue and who ignore the practical consequences of picking rates: 1 rate for prepared food, another rate for prepared food sold on take-out basis, etc.
But things get nuts when you look at services that are or aren't taxable. In most states, services aren't taxable unless statutes specifically impose tax, which is the opposite of how sales tax is imposed on sales of tangible and intangible property (such sales are taxable unless specifically exempted).
| 323 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:28:14am |
re: #322 lawhawk
Enough to make yer head spin, ain't it?
| 324 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:28:36am |
re: #321 reine.de.tout
It's a dialect. //
| 325 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:29:29am |
re: #322 lawhawk
If you think it's complicated to figure out the taxes as a consumer, look at it from a retailer's perspective. If you have sit-down seating at that deli, you might be able to treat it at the lower rate, or not. It totally depends on the way the tax law is written to deal with those situations. A retailer would have to figure this out - and more often than you think would get hit with audits and assessments by the tax authorities to figure out what the proper rate is.
Instead of having a rate across the board on food sales, we get all kinds of chicanery by legislatures trying to raise revenue and who ignore the practical consequences of picking rates: 1 rate for prepared food, another rate for prepared food sold on take-out basis, etc.
But things get nuts when you look at services that are or aren't taxable. In most states, services aren't taxable unless statutes specifically impose tax, which is the opposite of how sales tax is imposed on sales of tangible and intangible property (such sales are taxable unless specifically exempted).
Sounds like some sort of hodge-podge put together over time instead of a unified and logical system worked out in advance!
And if it ever evolves sentience we're in big trouble.
;)
;)
| 326 |
kirkspencer Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:30:00am |
re: #306 Obdicut
Flat tax is just not workable. There's nothing about it, aside from simplicity, that makes any sense.
A simple graduated income tax, and a capital gains tax tied to inflation, would be great. And I agree that deductions are just endlessly reductive. If the government wants to fund something, it should fund it, directly, not with tax breaks that then turn into an entire industry.
and I'll put in my plug, again, for "simple" tax.
any money received is income. (loans may be the odd duck here.)
Any money spent is an expense. Spent, not moved by sleight of hand.
Deduct the larger of your documented expenses or twice the federal poverty level to determine net income.
Net income is taxed at 50%.
Depending on your claimed family size, 40,000 to 70,000 of your income is tax-free. Everything else, 50% goes to the government.
| 327 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:31:29am |
re: #326 kirkspencer
You've gotta be kidding.
| 328 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:31:30am |
re: #318 Obdicut
I agree with this comment, but I still think there are ways around it - to be honest, as far as lobbying goes, I think the current deficiency in the US is more with the regulation of lobbying than with the existence of a tax structure that incentivizes lobbying, since there will always be an incentive to lobby the government.
I reckon you can put a 10% (or whatever) tax on electricity (to be collected by the power company) but waive it for renewable energy. Then obviously you'll get lobbying over the definition of "renewable energy", but as long as you have an open and transparent process of political patronage*, and people make their voting choices based on reality** and science***, there shouldn't be too big a problem.
* See, there's your problem, right there.
** And there.
*** Sigh.
| 329 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:34:56am |
re: #326 kirkspencer
Sorry. I reacted... You've obviously given this a lot of thought.
What does that do to the general revenue?
What do states get?
| 330 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:37:09am |
re: #314 iossarian
. . .
As a society, we know that, if we just buy yachts (or steaks, or cars, or TVs) all the time, things will fall apart. Roads will crumble, kids won't get taught. There will be no nurses to look after us when we're old. So we make laws and pay taxes to pay for these things. 10% on electronic goods. 25% on luxury yachts. And so on. It seems silly (to some people) - why not just let people spend their money on the right things?
But it turns out that we need the rules in order to do the right thing.
I suspect your list and my list of what is the "right thing" to spend money on might differ.
re: #328 iossarian
I agree with this comment, but I still think there are ways around it - to be honest, as far as lobbying goes, I think the current deficiency in the US is more with the regulation of lobbying than with the existence of a tax structure that incentivizes lobbying, since there will always be an incentive to lobby the government.
I reckon you can put a 10% (or whatever) tax on electricity (to be collected by the power company) but waive it for renewable energy. Then obviously you'll get lobbying over the definition of "renewable energy", but as long as you have an open and transparent process of political patronage*, and people make their voting choices based on reality** and science***, there shouldn't be too big a problem.
* See, there's your problem, right there.
** And there.
*** Sigh.
When enough folks have moved to renewable energy in order to get the energy tax waiver, there will be a shortfall for the governmental entity that gets that tax revenue. How will the shortfall be made up by the governmental entity that gets that tax revenue? A different tax? So nothing really changes?
| 331 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:38:18am |
re: #326 kirkspencer
It's unfair to tax investment income without taking inflation into account. And inefficient. Nobody will invest long-term if you do that. We need long-term investments.
| 332 |
kirkspencer Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:39:31am |
re: #327 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
You've gotta be kidding.
Nope. I've put it out numerous times. I put it out when flat-taxers whine. I put it out when we start complaining about the complexity of taxes. I put it out when we start talking about how if you're making more than a million dollars your overall tax rate starts decreasing.
The complex parts are things like loans and what the "sleight of hand" determinations for spending might be.
But the basic principle accomplishes several frequently mentioned complaints.
1) simplicity.
2) common tax rate for everyone.
3) Protect those who don't make much from being taxed into poverty. (FPL is 'survival'. Census estimates, and "who saves" reports, both indicate that actually being able to live starts somewhere between 150% and 200% FPL - federal poverty level.)
4) Removes most of the high-level loopholes.
| 333 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:41:17am |
re: #330 reine.de.tout
Create a per gallon gas tax to pay for roads...
Add incentives to create more fuel efficient cars...
Add incentives for folks to purchase more fuel efficient cars...
Start to look at a per mile usage tax because per gallon gas tax receipts have dropped because of the more fuel efficient cars.
Add incentives for people to begin ride sharing...
ITS THE CIRCLE
THE CIRCLE OF LIIIFE!
| 334 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:41:25am |
The tax code shouldn't be used for social engineering. See, I told you guys I'm actually a conservative.
The tax code should be used to get money to fund the government. If we want to encourage things, we should fund them. If we want to discourage things, we should realize that it's hard to discourage behavior through economic means, generally it just creates a black or otherwise broken market. Instead, we should regulate industries, and subsidize those that serve the public good.
| 335 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:42:45am |
re: #334 Obdicut
The tax code shouldn't be used for social engineering. See, I told you guys I'm actually a conservative.
Maybe only by the idiosyncratic American definition. Partially.
| 336 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:42:46am |
re: #334 Obdicut
And have an infinitely graduated progressive tax. And capital gains tied to inflation.
| 337 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:42:53am |
re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Create a per gallon gas tax to pay for roads...
Add incentives to create more fuel efficient cars...
Add incentives for folks to purchase more fuel efficient cars...
Start to look at a per mile usage tax because per gallon gas tax receipts have dropped because of the more fuel efficient cars.
Add incentives for people to begin ride sharing...
ITS THE CIRCLE
THE CIRCLE OF LIIIFE!
LOL.
Bottom line - if a governmental entity needs x amount of money to operate, well - then it needs x amount of money to operate. You can give folks this or that credit or waiver or whatever, but if there is a tax revenue shortfall, then it'll have to be made up somewhere else.
| 338 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:44:16am |
re: #334 Obdicut
You and I are not so different....
| 339 |
kirkspencer Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:45:45am |
re: #331 Obdicut
It's unfair to tax investment income without taking inflation into account. And inefficient. Nobody will invest long-term if you do that. We need long-term investments.
We don't take inflation income into account today, why should we have to do it earlier?
As to investments...
First, I used overseas bonds as my example because those are some of the most interesting 'cheats' out there right now. They're officially taxed overseas so domestic taxes are waived. (it's more complex than that, but the simple explanation works for this.)
Second, I've become more and more doubtful of the "we have to encourage investment" argument as I've studied this issue. Put simply, the poor don't invest, and the rich like the fact that if you put money in you get more money out even before taxes are applied. That said, I said all expenses, and I would include stock and bond purchases within the US. (Depending on details, overseas investments could also apply. as said, it's the 'use to avoid tax' bit that I'm raising.)
The thing is that because stocks and bonds (and real estate and yachts and...) are all going to be "expenses", a LOT of money will get tucked away at all levels. That's the reason for the 50% rate.
| 340 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:45:52am |
re: #338 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
The problem is nearly insoluble, though. The whole mess wedges together too well-- economic power is political power, and so it goes, and so it goes.
| 342 |
Flounder Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:47:37am |
re: #322 lawhawk
The bagel tax.
Funny
People have jobs because of this, in the tax department.
[Link: albarchive.merlinone.net...]
My head still spins when I try to read this.
| 343 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:49:50am |
re: #339 kirkspencer
We don't take inflation income into account today, why should we have to do it earlier?
I don't know what you mean by 'earlier'. We should take inflation into account because it penalizes long-term investments not to. Long-term investments are a good thing.
Second, I've become more and more doubtful of the "we have to encourage investment" argument as I've studied this issue.
You're not reading what I'm actually saying. I'm saying that a capital gains tax that isn't tied to income rewards short-term investments. We need more long term investment, so we should stop rewarding short-term investment.
hat said, I said all expenses, and I would include stock and bond purchases within the US. (Depending on details, overseas investments could also apply. as said, it's the 'use to avoid tax' bit that I'm raising.)
Uh, really? That would be a huge boon for the rich. All they'd have to do is have their trusts to flip every year. They just recycle the money they made back into the trust. That'd allow an effective 0% capital gains tax rate.
Is there something I'm missing here?
| 344 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:51:17am |
re: #342 Shropshire_Slasher
The bagel tax.
Funny
People have jobs because of this, in the tax department.
[Link: albarchive.merlinone.net...]
My head still spins when I try to read this.
From that story:
It's the first time New York's tax collectors have given comprehensive guidance about whether particular foods and beverages are taxable.
Seriously? This is what happens when you try to draw a very fine line between what is or is not taxable - you get "comprehensive" guidelines. Probably 500 pages or so.
| 345 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:52:43am |
One point people seem to be missing, when we talk about the ultra-wealthy like Romney, is that their taxes show that they're not actually "job-creators" (as the Republicans like to call them). Mitt Romney has zero income from wages - meaning he doesn't actually work. All of his money is from carried interest...that, as I understand it, is interest that has been sitting for two years (this year's interest he won't "collect" until 2013-14), so it comes in at the 15% tax rate (before deductions). But Mitt Romney does nothing to contribute to his community, the economy or the country outside of consuming about 49 rolls of toilet paper per year.
At least he's supporting the campaign industry...we all know how important that is to the economy.
| 346 |
kirkspencer Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:53:33am |
re: #343 Obdicut
I don't know what you mean by 'earlier'. We should take inflation into account because it penalizes long-term investments not to. Long-term investments are a good thing.
You're not reading what I'm actually saying. I'm saying that a capital gains tax that isn't tied to income rewards short-term investments. We need more long term investment, so we should stop rewarding short-term investment.
Uh, really? That would be a huge boon for the rich. All they'd have to do is have their trusts to flip every year. They just recycle the money they made back into the trust. That'd allow an effective 0% capital gains tax rate.
Is there something I'm missing here?
Tell you what, Obdicut. I've got to go, but want to answer your questions. So what I'll do is make a page, and point to it in whatever the current thread is at that time. Then I can both answer questions of things I've considered, and ponder the things I haven't.
| 347 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 6:57:10am |
re: #346 kirkspencer
Okay, but I'm letting you know right now it seems useful as the thought experiment-- as in, explaining why the concepts of 'simple', 'fair', etc. can be satisfied by a system of high tax as well as low tax-- but not as a real system. You seem to be prizing the velocity of money above absolutely everything, and that's not good. Velocity of money is good, but it's more about removing barriers to it rather than encouraging it by insisting on expenditure-- any expenditure.
| 348 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:01:12am |
Good news...Mitt Romney isn't paying a 15% tax rate...I was worried for a bit about that.
Bowing to increasing political pressure to provide more detail about his vast wealth, the former private equity executive released tax returns indicating he and his wife, Ann, paid an effective tax rate of 13.9 percent in 2010.
[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]
| 349 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:01:45am |
re: #344 reine.de.tout
From that story:
Seriously? This is what happens when you try to draw a very fine line between what is or is not taxable - you get "comprehensive" guidelines. Probably 500 pages or so.
For your reading pleasure: The Fair Labor Standards Act.
In addition to the act, there are all sorts of regulations and guides to help you determine who is exempt and various exceptions to non-exempt. Small print, a hundred pages or more long.
For any of you who have never looked at a piece of legislation, you should really take a look at that.
| 350 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:03:15am |
re: #347 Obdicut
Okay, but I'm letting you know right now it seems useful as the thought experiment-- as in, explaining why the concepts of 'simple', 'fair', etc. can be satisfied by a system of high tax as well as low tax-- but not as a real system. You seem to be prizing the velocity of money above absolutely everything, and that's not good. Velocity of money is good, but it's more about removing barriers to it rather than encouraging it by insisting on expenditure-- any expenditure.
Just remember that any sort of Lizard social engineering tax plan has to include incentives for solar. Lizards like to bask.
;)
| 351 |
darthstar Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:03:37am |
Wow...talk about trying to get in the mood for an event.
John Kerry with a broken nose and two black eyes...from playing hockey. Heh...who says the rich don't know how to have fun.
| 353 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:06:10am |
re: #323 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
It's enough to keep a whole lot of people employed trying to figure out what the heck is going on....
| 354 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:35:07am |
re: #353 lawhawk
It's enough to keep a whole lot of people employed trying to figure out what the heck is going on...
And most of them don't have the same answers.
| 355 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:36:51am |
re: #354 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
And most of them don't have the same answers.
So why not just make coffee grounds divination official? //
| 356 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:37:47am |
| 357 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:40:44am |
re: #355 Sergey Romanov
So why not just make coffee grounds divination official? //
Employee: Hey boss! I've found a way to make all tax laws perfectly understandable and not subject to any interpretations!
Boss: WILSON! YOU'RE FIRED!
| 358 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:40:46am |
re: #195 RogueOne
It might be interesting to see if Thomas and Sotomayor find some way to work together. That could be fun.
Won't happen. Thomas would have to put some actual effort into sitting on the Court first.
| 359 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:41:55am |
re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Employee: Hey boss! I've found a way to make all tax laws perfectly understandable and not subject to any interpretations!
Boss: WILSON! YOU'RE FIRED!
Sounds like an episode of the Jetsons.
| 360 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:47:47am |
re: #357 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Employee: Hey boss! I've found a way to make all tax laws perfectly understandable and not subject to any interpretations!
Boss: WILSON! YOU'RE FIRED!
Heh. My husband REFUSES to pay anyone to do our taxes. He does them, every year.
And every year, he makes some sort of error.
And so every year, we get a letter from the IRS about a tax return from a couple of years ago, telling us where the error is and what our additional tax (and penalty & interest) is.
It used to bother me, really it worried me a lot, to get an IRS letter every year. Not so much worried about it anymore.
When the tax laws and forms are so damned complicated that a reasonably intelligent person makes a mistake every year? I've got no problem being a thorn in the side of the IRS.
| 361 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:49:02am |
Morning all!
While this baby isn't what I would call cute, it is rather cool that he/she/it is hitching a ride on mama's back. I had no clue they did that.
How are you-all?
| 362 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:52:04am |
re: #360 reine.de.tout
Heh. My husband REFUSES to pay anyone to do our taxes. He does them, every year.
And every year, he makes some sort of error.
And so every year, we get a letter from the IRS about a tax return from a couple of years ago, telling us where the error is and what our additional tax (and penalty & interest) is.
It used to bother me, really it worried me a lot, to get an IRS letter every year. Not so much worried about it anymore.
When the tax laws and forms are so damned complicated that a reasonably intelligent person makes a mistake every year? I've got no problem being a thorn in the side of the IRS.
I'm surprised. Most tax programs these days have a built-in return checker that should eliminate this. Or does he do them on paper? Me, I'm a TurboTax addict, have been for many years. I actually enjoy filing my taxes.
| 363 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:52:47am |
re: #360 reine.de.tout
At a company I know well, the IRS assessed a tax was underpaid years previously. The company paid the money and started to appeal. About 5 years later got it back with interest. Names and $ numbers left out for privacy. It was a good chunk of money. Like a new car kinda money.
Point is you are right even the IRS gets it wrong sometimes.
| 364 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:56:50am |
So, I've been playing on Photoshop and did one of those deals with photobook publisher. I made a book for my Mom for Valentine's Day Just got the proof thru email. Very Cool.
I love the intertoobs!
| 365 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:57:39am |
A more thorough examination of Romney's tax returns; he was able to take advantage of capital loss carryovers from 2009 into 2010 and 2011, reducing his overall income. There were also significant donations, which reduce his effective tax rate - including significant donations to the Mormon Church, George W. Bush Library, BYU, Dana Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Business School, and the charity Homes For Our Troops.
Seems that he was diligent in making sure he paid SS taxes on the hired help (an issue that has affected numerous politicians over the years).
Of course with an effective tax rate of 14%, that's far lower than many people in the marginal tax brackets from 25-35%. Those in the middle class usually have so little in the way of capital gains or carried interest that is taxed at the lower rate that their effective rate is closer to the marginal rate than in Romney's case.
Would simplification solve this particular problem? The lawyerly answer is - it depends. If you treat all capital gains and interest the same as wages, you might have a transition period in which things are more complex. If you create a bracket system so that only high income earners are hit with a higher capital gains/interest rate than those in the middle class, you'd have a much more complex system.
It would also depend on whether the politics results in a revenue neutral system, or one that draws more or less revenue - all in the name of expediency to pass any kind of tax reform package.
As it stands, the tax code is needlessly complex and can give those with the means the opportunity to legally reduce their tax burdens far below anything that was originally contemplated.
| 366 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:57:56am |
re: #362 thedopefishlives
Of course, part of the reason I enjoy filing taxes is because I have a perfect streak of getting refunds so far. That helps.
| 367 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:59:14am |
re: #365 lawhawk
A more thorough examination of Romney's tax returns; he was able to take advantage of capital loss carryovers from 2009 into 2010 and 2011, reducing his overall income. There were also significant donations, which reduce his effective tax rate - including significant donations to the Mormon Church, George W. Bush Library, BYU, Dana Farber Cancer Institute, Harvard Business School, and the charity Homes For Our Troops.
Seems that he was diligent in making sure he paid SS taxes on the hired help (an issue that has affected numerous politicians over the years).
Of course with an effective tax rate of 14%, that's far lower than many people in the marginal tax brackets from 25-35%. Those in the middle class usually have so little in the way of capital gains or carried interest that is taxed at the lower rate that their effective rate is closer to the marginal rate than in Romney's case.
Would simplification solve this particular problem? The lawyerly answer is - it depends. If you treat all capital gains and interest the same as wages, you might have a transition period in which things are more complex. If you create a bracket system so that only high income earners are hit with a higher capital gains/interest rate than those in the middle class, you'd have a much more complex system.
It would also depend on whether the politics results in a revenue neutral system, or one that draws more or less revenue - all in the name of expediency to pass any kind of tax reform package.
As it stands, the tax code is needlessly complex and can give those with the means the opportunity to legally reduce their tax burdens far below anything that was originally contemplated.
Is it really effective to talk percentages? With super high incomes, a lower percentage still produces a very large tax burden. More than the average bear pays.
| 368 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:59:30am |
re: #361 ggt
Still: awww!
| 370 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:59:48am |
| 371 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 7:59:55am |
re: #367 ggt
Depends on how you define burden. He pays less of a percentage of his income in taxes. He has more left over after taxes.
| 372 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:00:15am |
| 373 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:01:09am |
re: #371 Obdicut
Depends on how you define burden. He pays less of a percentage of his income in taxes. He has more left over after taxes.
I'd just rather see the actual dollars, not percentages.
| 374 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:01:38am |
re: #373 ggt
I'd just rather see the actual dollars, not percentages.
The actual dollars of how much money he has left over as compared to the average worker?
| 375 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:01:48am |
re: #367 ggt
Is it really effective to talk percentages? With super high incomes, a lower percentage still produces a very large tax burden. More than the average bear pays.
This is how Rush Limbaugh gets away with complaining about how the current tax structure unfairly penalizes the rich. Never mind that they're keeping more of their money than the middle-class; they're paying more in an absolute amount because they have more, so therefore, OOGA BOOGA.
| 376 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:02:08am |
re: #365 lawhawk
As it stands, the tax code is needlessly complex and can give
those with the meansJOB CREATORS the opportunity tolegally reduce their tax burdens far below anything that was originally contemplatedINVEST MORE MONEY IN CREATING JOBS.
This is how they try to sell it to us.
| 377 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:03:47am |
firefox cannot find weather.gov.
WTF?
| 378 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:04:38am |
| 379 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:05:19am |
re: #378 Alouette
Climate change eated weather.gov
Got to the Chicago main page, but none of the links work.
| 380 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:05:23am |
re: #375 thedopefishlives
This is how Rush Limbaugh gets away with complaining about how the current tax structure unfairly penalizes the rich. Never mind that they're keeping more of their money than the middle-class; they're paying more in an absolute amount because they have more, so therefore, OOGA BOOGA.
We are talking about a few percentage points in the tax rates for average earners, we are talking about the difference between affording healthcare and education for their families, not the difference between a sixty-foot and a ninety-foot yacht.
| 381 |
lawhawk Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:07:01am |
re: #367 ggt
If one wants to consider fairness in the tax code, does it make sense for someone in the 30% bracket to pay closer 30% of their income*, while someone who would be in the 35% bracket pays 15% of their income*? From a dollar value - the person in the 35% bracket will still pay more, but as a percentage of their worth, it's far less than someone in the lower bracket who pays a higher percentage of their income to tax.
Much of the distortion results from several tax laws - namely those on capital gains/interest, donations, and mortgage interest. At high income levels, capital gains/interest is the primary driver of income, and since it's taxed at a much lower rate, the effective rates for those people is far lower than otherwise. It also reduces the effect of the noxious AMT, which is a bigger hassle than it's worth and which requires a much more complex return (and should be eliminated and replaced by a more stringent top tax bracket indexed to inflation that allows few/no deductions, exemptions, or credits on say income* over $1 million).
* income includes wages, compensation, interest, capital gains, etc.
| 382 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:07:24am |
re: #380 ralphieboy
We are talking about a few percentage points in the tax rates for average earners, we are talking about the difference between affording healthcare and education for their families, not the difference between a sixty-foot and a ninety-foot yacht.
It could also mean the difference between keeping a member of the household staff and having to let them go.
It could also mean a year of tuition for one of their kids. You know they aren't going to get any kind of financial aid, right?
| 383 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:07:51am |
re: #367 ggt
Is it really effective to talk percentages? With super high incomes, a lower percentage still produces a very large tax burden. More than the average bear pays.
Let's convert it into cookies then! :)
If you, me, and Obdicut get two cookies each while Emperor Varek gets four and then we tax us at 50% and the Emperor at 25% to feed the Imperial Stormtroopers at nap time.
Everyone paid one cookie. Varek however has three cookies to invest in superlasers while we each only have one. Sith superiority is thus explained.
;)
| 384 |
CuriousLurker Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:09:12am |
OT Drive-by - Not a good sign. Pew has a new report out: Public Priorities: Deficit Rising, Terrorism Slipping.
Last on the list of priorities? Global Warming.
Thanks, GOP. //
| 385 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:09:47am |
re: #383 oaktree
Let's convert it into cookies then! :)
If you, me, and Obdicut get two cookies each while Emperor Varek gets four and then we tax us at 50% and the Emperor at 25% to feed the Imperial Stormtroopers at nap time.
Everyone paid one cookie. Varek however has three cookies to invest in superlasers while we each only have one. Sith superiority is thus explained.
;)
Except I think a better comparison would be if super-rich Emperor Varek EARNED 10 cookies.
I think there is a much larger difference in the number of cookies and we really need to remember that tax is on earned income (theoretically). No one gets cookies from the cookie fairy.
| 386 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:10:25am |
re: #385 ggt
A lot of the income we're talking about, like Romney's, is literally unearned income.
| 387 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:10:53am |
re: #365 lawhawk
re: #381 lawhawk
A major error made by critics of the tax rates IMO-It's just not appropriate to compare cap gains tax rates and ordinary income tax rates. The rates need to be looked at separately and set accordingly. Obamas committee came to the conclusion we should reduce cap gains tax rates a little.
When these rates are politicized, candidates looking for "gotcha" in a perfectly legal tax filing we are just distorting the argument further into unreasonable territory. Fairness is hilariously subjective at that point.
| 388 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:11:01am |
re: #382 ggt
It could also mean the difference between keeping a member of the household staff and having to let them go.
It could also mean a year of tuition for one of their kids. You know they aren't going to get any kind of financial aid, right?
They might have to dispense with the luxury of additional household help. They might have to send their child to a state university instead of an exclusive private one, yes.
For other families it means the difference between making mortgage or insurance payments or affording to send their kids to even a community college...
| 389 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:11:03am |
re: #386 Obdicut
A lot of the income we're talking about, like Romney's, is literally unearned income.
So, we are really talking about the tax on Capital Gains?
| 390 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:11:09am |
re: #382 ggt
It could also mean the difference between keeping a member of the household staff and having to let them go.
It could also mean a year of tuition for one of their kids. You know they aren't going to get any kind of financial aid, right?
Horse hockey. I went to school in an extremely rich high school, and there were plenty of scholarships to be handed out among the rich kids. Some were athletic, but by no means a majority.
| 391 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:12:46am |
re: #388 ralphieboy
They might have to dispense with the luxury of additional household help. They might have to send their child to a state university instead of an exclusive private one, yes.
For other families it means the difference between making mortgage or insurance payments or affording to send their kids to even a community college...
Luxury of additional household help = someone doesn't have a job.
The average family can get financial aid for community college.
| 392 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:13:17am |
re: #385 ggt
Except I think a better comparison would be if super-rich Emperor Varke EARNED 10 cookies.
I think there is a much larger difference in the number of cookies and we really need to remember that tax is on earned income (theoretically). No one gets cookies from the cookie fairy.
We then delve into "earned" vs "unearned" income. And also into the whole bit where investment is termed "job creation" and thus is heavily defended. Further complicated by long-term vs short-term investment and what and where the cookie dough is invested in.
| 393 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:13:35am |
re: #386 Obdicut
In an environment of very low interest & real estate woes, what else is a diligent saver to do but get all the unearned income they can with their hard earned post income/SS/Medicare tax money? I don't get the derision shown by many at this kind of income.
| 394 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:14:33am |
re: #392 oaktree
We then delve into "earned" vs "unearned" income. And also into the whole bit where investment is termed "job creation" and thus is heavily defended. Further complicated by long-term vs short-term investment and what and where the cookie dough is invested in.
I'm not so sure I buy into the "job creation" aspect of investments. I seems it creates lots of jobs in the financial sector. But unless the financial sector stops blaming government regulations and starts lending money to small business --that argument is moot.
| 395 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:14:51am |
re: #393 Rightwingconspirator
In an environment of very low interest & real estate woes, what else is a diligent saver to do but get all the unearned income they can with their hard earned post income/SS/Medicare tax money? I don't get the derision shown by many at this kind of income.
In Romney's case, he didn't do anything at all to get his money. He inherited a base, invested it, and is living off the profits. That's why we're all deriding him and other trust-fund babies like him.
| 396 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:15:47am |
re: #395 thedopefishlives
In Romney's case, he didn't do anything at all to get his money. He inherited a base, invested it, and is living off the profits. That's why we're all deriding him and other trust-fund babies like him.
And he defends attacks on him as "attacking success"...
| 397 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:16:29am |
re: #391 ggt
Luxury of additional household help = someone doesn't have a job.
Then they will have to move back to Mexico...
/
| 398 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:17:35am |
re: #389 ggt
It depends who you're talking about. You said you wanted to see absolute dollar amounts. I do think it's worthwhile to consider just how hard it is, how challenging to get by on $20,000, for example. I do think it's worthwhile knowing that someone paid, say, $3,000,000 in taxes-- but also to consider they have $20,000,000 in income-- let alone wealth-- afterwards.
There is never going to be fairness in the tax code. There is going to be what works, what takes into account actual human beings, and what we need.
And people barely scraping by aren't good for any of us. General prosperity is a wonderful thing.
| 399 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:20:31am |
re: #370 ggt
I'm just not a bug person.
Ever since the teleporter accident, I *am* a bug person. It has its benefits, but overall it's kinda mundane.
| 400 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:21:00am |
re: #399 negativ
Ever since the teleporter accident, I *am* a bug person. It has its benefits, but overall it's kinda mundane.
Gregor Samsa? Is that you?
| 401 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:21:13am |
re: #398 Obdicut
It depends who you're talking about. You said you wanted to see absolute dollar amounts. I do think it's worthwhile to consider just how hard it is, how challenging to get by on $20,000, for example. I do think it's worthwhile knowing that someone paid, say, $3,000,000 in taxes-- but also to consider they have $20,000,000 in income-- let alone wealth-- afterwards.
There is never going to be fairness in the tax code. There is going to be what works, what takes into account actual human beings, and what we need.
And people barely scraping by aren't good for any of us. General prosperity is a wonderful thing.
I agree. I do know how hard it is to get by on even larger amounts --$40,000 still qualifies for aid in some areas. And rightly so.
What I object to is the rhetoric that seems to have contempt for success. I do not think Prosperity, in and of itself, is immoral.
| 402 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:21:41am |
re: #394 ggt
I'm not so sure I buy into the "job creation" aspect of investments. I seems it creates lots of jobs in the financial sector. But unless the financial sector stops blaming government regulations and starts lending money to small business --that argument is moot.
I think I will be looking into this facet of the whole mess over the next few months since I am involved on the periphery of a loan deal affecting a small business I am associated with. It will be interesting to see what the bank paperwork involves.
| 403 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:21:54am |
re: #401 ggt
I will always care how someone made their money more than how much they made.
| 404 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:23:19am |
re: #402 oaktree
I think I will be looking into this facet of the whole mess over the next few months since I am involved on the periphery of a loan deal affecting a small business I am associated with. It will be interesting to see what the bank paperwork involves.
I've taken a hiatus from my Dodd Frank research. The holidays interrupted me and I'm enjoying a much needed fiction escape.
What I can conclude is that NONE of the rhetoric is in accurate.
| 405 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:24:02am |
re: #403 Obdicut
I will always care how someone made their money more than how much they made.
Really? As long as it is legally made, I don't really care.
| 406 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:25:11am |
re: #404 ggt
I've taken a hiatus from my Dodd Frank research. The holidays interrupted me and I'm enjoying a much needed fiction escape.
What I can conclude is that NONE of the rhetoric is in accurate.
Heh, that would be as I would expect. I operate from the expectation that practically all issues are gray - black/white rhetoric is generalizing and simplifying for the purpose of creating sound bites and whipping up crowds.
| 407 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:26:20am |
re: #405 ggt
Really? As long as it is legally made, I don't really care.
Really. If someone spends their lives promoting sex tourism in Thailand, I'm going to think less of them than if they are a primary care physician in a small clinic. The former does nothing of value and is creepy, the latter is doing a much needed job.
If someone is a PR writer for tobacco companies composing ad campaigns to appeal to kids, I think they're worse than a crossing guard who shows up on time every day and is vigilant in their job.
| 408 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:28:35am |
re: #401 ggt
I agree. I do know how hard it is to get by on even larger amounts --$40,000 still qualifies for aid in some areas. And rightly so.
What I object to is the rhetoric that seems to have contempt for success. I do not think Prosperity, in and of itself, is immoral.
I do not object to people who make lots of money. I do object to the argument that people who make lots of money should not have to pay lots in taxes.
| 409 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:29:40am |
re: #407 Obdicut
Really. If someone spends their lives promoting sex tourism in Thailand, I'm going to think less of them than if they are a primary care physician in a small clinic. The former does nothing of value and is creepy, the latter is doing a much needed job.
If someone is a PR writer for tobacco companies composing ad campaigns to appeal to kids, I think they're worse than a crossing guard who shows up on time every day and is vigilant in their job.
Ok, you are right again. There are things that are technically legal, but not necessarily defend-able in a court. At least, if I were an attorney, I wouldn't take the case.
| 410 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:30:01am |
re: #405 ggt
Really? As long as it is legally made, I don't really care.
I don't concur with this. Legal not equal to Just
And you have companies doing things for short term profit that are simply irresponsible. And leaders in companies doing things simply for their own short term profit and in disregard of what was good for the company itself, much less the employees.
(The result of a privatizing buy-out that tied executive exit bonuses solely to the company bottom line. It was in their personal interest to gut departments and ignore where they were in the capital investment cycle of the industry.)
| 411 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:30:13am |
re: #408 thedopefishlives
I do not object to people who make lots of money. I do object to the argument that people who make lots of money should not have to pay lots in taxes.
I also object to the argument that people who make lots of money are by definition "job creators." We see that Mitt Romney has not created any jobs.
| 412 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:30:38am |
re: #408 thedopefishlives
I do not object to people who make lots of money. I do object to the argument that people who make lots of money should not have to pay lots in taxes.
That's where I think the percentage is an incorrect gauge. I'd like to see the actual dollar amounts.
| 413 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:31:02am |
re: #409 ggt
And I'm not saying we should segregate income by usefulness or morality, but I do feel that what we do in this life really matters.
| 414 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:32:33am |
re: #413 Obdicut
And I'm not saying we should segregate income by usefulness or morality, but I do feel that what we do in this life really matters.
I agree with that as well. But knowing *how* someone made their money does tell me something about their character. And if they are running for public office I have a great deal of interest in their character.
| 415 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:34:48am |
re: #412 ggt
That's where I think the percentage is an incorrect gauge. I'd like to see the actual dollar amounts.
Why? "A lot" is a very subjective amount. A lot, to me, is on the order of hundreds of dollars. To my parents, who are upper middle-class, hundreds of dollars is a drop in the bucket. Talking in absolute numbers makes no sense when you're comparing different income brackets.
| 416 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:35:41am |
re: #414 oaktree
I agree with that as well. But knowing *how* someone made their money does tell me something about their character. And if they are running for public office I have a great deal of interest in their character.
The perception of the morality of how someone made their money is subjective as well. The auto industry, for example, isn't as well thought of as it used to be. The same with the oil industry.
Especially with oil. 40 years ago, it didn't have the negative connotation it does today.
| 417 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:36:33am |
re: #415 thedopefishlives
Why? "A lot" is a very subjective amount. A lot, to me, is on the order of hundreds of dollars. To my parents, who are upper middle-class, hundreds of dollars is a drop in the bucket. Talking in absolute numbers makes no sense when you're comparing different income brackets.
because I think we are talking about a lot more than "hundreds" of dollars.
Again, I'd like to see the actual dollar amounts.
| 418 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:40:57am |
re: #407 Obdicut
Yet, I would not go so far as to think less of a person that had inherited vs. made big money. It's a crappy basis for disdain. Most of us would like to leave some security for our children. That does not compute with disdain for those who inherited. What a person does with their money and actions speaks loud enough.
| 419 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:43:22am |
re: #416 ggt
The perception of the morality of how someone made their money is subjective as well. The auto industry, for example, isn't as well thought of as it used to be. The same with the oil industry.
Especially with oil. 40 years ago, it didn't have the negative connotation it does today.
Various industries being demonized is a historical phenomena. Cultural baggage, and also their "popularity" rises and falls due to actions, lobbying/publicity, and what is going on in the country.
Oil development was big as the US industrialized and became a great power. Taming the wilderness and harnessing resources. Same to a degree with iron and steel as that was part of what made a country "great". The railroads "opened" the West and were one of the first great transportation networks* in North America.
And all these got demonized at some point due to monopolistic behavior, negative publicity, corruption, and also development of competition. Plus changing cultural mores as well - concern about pollution, social justice, etc.
* - Canal building and river network improvements can be considered preceeding it. But the great era of canal building was actually not that long, and many canal development plans failed quickly. A number of these were taken over by the railroad companies since both had great interest in low grade slopes over mountains and elevations.
| 420 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:46:03am |
re: #418 Rightwingconspirator
Yet, I would not go so far as to think less of a person that had inherited vs. made big money. It's a crappy basis for disdain.
Who was talking about disdaining people for inheriting money?
I feel bad for people who inherited a lot of money. They must struggle to feel a sense of actual accomplishment.
| 421 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:47:36am |
re: #420 Obdicut
Who was talking about disdaining people for inheriting money?
I feel bad for people who inherited a lot of money. They must struggle to feel a sense of actual accomplishment.
I tend to look at what a person does daily. Do they get out of bed, suit-up and go out into the world to accomplish something or contribute? Or, do they get out of bed, pour a drink and proceed to party all day?
| 422 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:48:10am |
re: #418 Rightwingconspirator
Yet, I would not go so far as to think less of a person that had inherited vs. made big money. It's a crappy basis for disdain. Most of us would like to leave some security for our children. That does not compute with disdain for those who inherited. What a person does with their money and actions speaks loud enough.
Is the disdain from inheritance, or from an inheritor acting like they grew up blue-collar and paid the dues where they were worrying about where the next meal was coming from?
In other words, is the facade of being the "average joe" what angers us rather than the actual possession of inherited money?
And perhaps similar disdain for acting "superior" due to being wealthy when said wealth has been inherited rather than "earned".
| 423 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:48:24am |
re: #420 Obdicut
I feel bad for people who inherited a lot of money. They must struggle to feel a sense of actual accomplishment.
I'm sure they lose sleep over it.
Image: 40jzC.jpg
Image: 68UZG.jpg
etc.
| 424 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:49:36am |
re: #420 Obdicut
Who was talking about disdaining people for inheriting money?
I feel bad for people who inherited a lot of money. They must struggle to feel a sense of actual accomplishment.
How much is "a lot"?
:)
| 425 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:49:54am |
re: #422 oaktree
Is the disdain from inheritance, or from an inheritor acting like they grew up blue-collar and paid the dues where they were worrying about where the next meal was coming from?
In other words, is the facade of being the "average joe" what angers us rather than the actual possession of inherited money?
And perhaps similar disdain for acting "superior" due to being wealthy when said wealth has been inherited rather than "earned".
I was reading or heard somewhere quite recently that it's our Puritan inheritance that is the culprit for this way of thinking. In other parts of the world, a person with means is not disparaged for having household help. In this country, we feel one should not pay for service one can do oneself.
| 426 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:49:58am |
re: #421 ggt
Exactly. And if it's the latter, I don't care if they're a drunk on the skid or a bum on the plush.
Really, I do feel bad for them, because I often think it's just that they weren't raised with a good work ethic. It's a hard thing to develop on your own, if you don't have parents or others to reinforce it.
| 427 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:50:57am |
re: #426 Obdicut
Exactly. And if it's the latter, I don't care if they're a drunk on the skid or a bum on the plush.
Really, I do feel bad for them, because I often think it's just that they weren't raised with a good work ethic. It's a hard thing to develop on your own, if you don't have parents or others to reinforce it.
In the case of Romney, while I don't want him as POTUS, I have to respect that he suits-up every day. He doesn't have to.
| 429 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:51:43am |
re: #427 ggt
In the case of Romney, while I don't want him as POTUS, I have to respect that he suits-up every day. He doesn't have to.
Same with my least favorite Senator from Illinois, Dick Durbin. The man goes to work every day and tries his best. I respect that.
| 430 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:51:57am |
It's fascinating to see the "classless" society of the US filled with serfs looking up to their fantastically wealthy rulers and saying "Gawd bless'em, I don't begrudge them a thing."
It's quaintly Dickensian.
| 431 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:52:28am |
| 432 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:53:39am |
re: #431 ggt
Well, not to manage a cocaine empire.
:0
Or create an following thru radio broadcast.
:0
| 433 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:53:53am |
re: #425 ggt
I was reading or heard somewhere quite recently that it's our Puritan inheritance that is the culprit for this way of thinking. In other parts of the world, a person with means is not disparaged for having household help. In this country, we feel one should not pay for service one can do oneself.
I hate to break it to you, but the people with real money in the US have no problem with paying you to do their dirty work for them.
| 434 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:54:15am |
re: #431 ggt
Sure. But, for example, the other day he suited up to tell a complete, blatant lie about Obama-- ironically enough, accusing him of never having had a real job. I don't have to respect him for doing that.
| 435 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:54:46am |
re: #425 ggt
I was reading or heard somewhere quite recently that it's our Puritan inheritance that is the culprit for this way of thinking. In other parts of the world, a person with means is not disparaged for having household help. In this country, we feel one should not pay for service one can do oneself.
I think it is more a victim of industrialization towards consumer goods. When a decent mechanical dishwasher comes out - then someone doing that jobs starts being equated with a machine. Also, as the class distinctions start to erode, combined with social support networks, the hiring of help gets more expensive and complicated. A large middle class with some mobility plays a role as well I think.
| 436 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:55:23am |
re: #420 Obdicut
Who was talking about disdaining people for inheriting money?
I feel bad for people who inherited a lot of money. They must struggle to feel a sense of actual accomplishment.
I said it, but what I really meant was more along the lines of re: #422 oaktree. I'm probably going to inherit a not insignificant sum, but I also know that I had to work hard to earn what I currently have and that receiving said money isn't going to give me an entitlement complex.
| 437 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:55:52am |
re: #422 oaktree
In the context of the primary you are right on. But we saw this same thing in the Buffet secretary tax kerfuffle.
| 438 |
Gretchen G.Tiger Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:56:37am |
re: #434 Obdicut
Sure. But, for example, the other day he suited up to tell a complete, blatant lie about Obama-- ironically enough, accusing him of never having had a real job. I don't have to respect him for doing that.
This is what I don't understand.
Politicians lie, that is what they do. They all do.
We only notice the lies that mean something to us.
Originally, I was trying to explain that while I don't want Romney as POTUS, he is at least doing his version of contributing. He isn't playing video games with his dad's money.
| 440 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:58:25am |
re: #420 Obdicut
Like every life circumstance, life becomes what you make of it. You can be a slacker or an advocate for some great thing either way. Resources vary but the "beating heart" is the same.
| 441 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:58:28am |
re: #438 ggt
Politicians lie, that is what they do. They all do.
To different degrees. And some lies are worse than others.
Do you think all politicians lie in exactly the same degree? how do they manage that?
| 442 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:59:30am |
Gingrich Erases Romney's National Lead
Newt Gingrich has all but erased Mitt Romney's 23-percentage-point lead of a week ago among Republican voters nationally, and the two candidates are now essentially tied, at 29% for Romney and 28% for Gingrich. Ron Paul and Rick Santorum have significantly lower levels of support, at 13% and 11%, respectively.
| 443 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Tears Tue, Jan 24, 2012 8:59:47am |
re: #436 thedopefishlives
I said it, but what I really meant was more along the lines of re: #422 oaktree. I'm probably going to inherit a not insignificant sum, but I also know that I had to work hard to earn what I currently have and that receiving said money isn't going to give me an entitlement complex.
That is roughly why I asked Obdicut how much "a lot" is in #424. I did inherit what is probably considered a not insignificant sum. So I guess the follow-on question still boils down to "what did you do with it?"
| 444 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:00:27am |
re: #442 Lidane
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Romney rested on his laurels a little too soon, Newt came back swinging, and now it's all on.
| 445 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:04:24am |
re: #443 oaktree
It's not a binary thing.
I was raised by two academics with books all around me. I had a huge advantage because of that. I was raised meeting people from all walks of life. That gave me a big advantage. I had tons of advantages. So, I expect a lot out of myself because of that.
Our family friend, Alain Renoir, was the son of the filmmaker and the grandson of the artist. He could have made it quite easy on himself, trading off of that heritage. Instead, he decided to not go into art or film because those roads were open to him, and became a medievalist, doing amazing work on Beowulf. I respected him a lot for that.
| 446 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:04:48am |
re: #444 thedopefishlives
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Romney rested on his laurels a little too soon, Newt came back swinging, and now it's all on.
It'll be really funny if Newt loses because of Virginia.
| 447 |
Sol Berdinowitz Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:06:25am |
re: #444 thedopefishlives
Talk about snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. Romney rested on his laurels a little too soon, Newt came back swinging, and now it's all on.
Newt found the right tone for an emotional appeal to the voters: a choice between "our" America (small town, white picket fences, nickel cokes and hard working white people) vs "their" America (ghettoes, chain-link fences, crack houses and welfare queens), and that is finding a lot of resonance with the angry voters out there.
Mitt never had any emotional appeal, and that 13% effective tax rate he pays has become an albatross around his neck.
| 448 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:06:36am |
That dog whistle just became an air raid siren:
GOP contender Newt Gingrich has built up quite a record of making derogatory, racially-charged remarks on the campaign trail. He frequently derides President Obama as a “food stamp president” and said he would go to the NAACP and tell African Americans they should “demand paychecks and not be satisfied with food stamps.” Last week he said work is a “strange, distant concept” to Fox anchor Juan Williams, who had the audacity to ask Gingrich at a recent debate if he understood why blacks might be offended by his remarks.
More than 40 Catholic leaders recently challenged Gingrich to “stop perpetuating ugly racial stereotypes” with his divisive rhetoric.
For Gingrich, perpetuating ugly racial stereotypes is nothing new. Today, the Huffington Post reports that at the height of Gingrich’s power in Congress, one of his major speeches had to be edited to remove a racist characterization of Asians, Latinos, and black Americans.
Handwritten note at the source.
I'm sure that will play well in the general election. How soon before the Freepers and wingnuts defend Newt on this?
| 449 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:09:55am |
re: #448 Lidane
That dog whistle just became an air raid siren:
Handwritten notes at the source.
I'm sure that will play well in the general election. How soon before the Freepers and wingnuts defend Newt on this?
How anyone can say blatantly racist crap like this and still be a contender for election in the United States is a mystery to me.
| 450 |
mdey Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:13:42am |
| 451 |
Obdicut Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:14:48am |
re: #450 mdey
And the media that refuses to call this shit what it is.
| 452 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:15:41am |
re: #451 Obdicut
And the media that refuses to call this shit what it is.
Heck there are folks we chat with every day on here, who will say "it's just not a big voting issue for me."
| 453 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:17:09am |
re: #448 Lidane
That dog whistle just became an air raid siren:
Handwritten note at the source.
I'm sure that will play well in the general election. How soon before the Freepers and wingnuts defend Newt on this?
Damn. Romney better hurry and say something, so as not to lose the racist vote.
| 454 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:18:31am |
re: #449 thedopefishlives
How anyone can say blatantly racist crap like this and still be a contender for election in the United States is a mystery to me.
You're just overly sensitive and giving the librul PC media what they want. Real Americans hear racist comments like that and ignore them.
Why do you hate America?
///
| 455 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:19:12am |
re: #452 iossarian
Heck there are folks we chat with every day on here, who will say "it's just not a big voting issue for me."
I was incredulous when one of my fundamentalist Christian friends announced on his Facebook that he was supporting Newt for President. Seriously, my jaw dropped to the floor. I could not understand how any Christian, in good conscience, could back a racist, philandering asshat who got kicked out of his own party for ethics violations.
| 456 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:19:24am |
re: #448 Lidane
Also, this ethics report contains a lot of shit on Gingrich - I mean the publicly accessible report, not the sealed documents, that have even more. One of the first appendices in the 4th pdf is his handwritten note about him being all about a defender of civilization and other such delusions of grandiosity. Somebody should take a look through that stuff.
| 457 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:21:13am |
re: #455 thedopefishlives
I was incredulous when one of my fundamentalist Christian friends announced on his Facebook that he was supporting Newt for President. Seriously, my jaw dropped to the floor. I could not understand how any Christian, in good conscience, could back a racist, philandering asshat who got kicked out of his own party for ethics violations.
There's a Russian joke about that: if you don't sin, you don't repent, if you don't repent, you won't get saved. I get that this doesn't work in the Protestant context with emphasis on faith, and not works, but it seems like they love them some flawed leaders.
| 458 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:23:43am |
re: #457 Sergey Romanov
There's a Russian joke about that: if you don't sin, you don't repent, if you don't repent, you won't get saved. I get that this doesn't work in the Protestant context with emphasis on faith, and not works, but it seems like they love them some flawed leaders.
The thing that killed me is, the whole reason he's backing Newt is because he thinks he has the best chance to beat Obama. It's not because of his policies or anything positive, it's all about getting rid of our socialist President. Really, man, do your homework. Newt Gingrich is not someone you want sitting in the hot seat.
| 459 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:25:19am |
[Link: ethics.house.gov...]
| 460 |
Lidane Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:25:33am |
re: #456 Sergey Romanov
Also, this ethics report contains a lot of shit on Gingrich - I mean the publicly accessible report, not the sealed documents, that have even more. One of the first appendices in the 4th pdf is his handwritten note about him being all about a defender of civilization and other such delusions of grandiosity. Somebody should take a look through that stuff.
Oh, they are. Romney's people are going through it all now, I'm sure. So are Obama's.
Funny thing is, for Newt's supporters, all that stuff is a feature, not a bug. They LIKE the fact that he's got those ethics charges since they're convinced it was all a liberal plot. They like his racial comments and his general bomb throwing because he reflects their anger and resentment.
| 461 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:25:45am |
re: #458 thedopefishlives
Yeah, even if Newt won, I think he would all but ensure the Dem President next.
| 462 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:33:41am |
re: #445 Obdicut
I like what Joe Hill did. He's an author... the son of Stephen King.
His book "Heart Shaped Box" was thoroughly enjoyable to me. As I was reading it, I thought, "Damn, this guy writes like Stephen King."
Reporters had to dig up his familial relationship.
| 463 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:35:55am |
A couple of thoughts:
Romney did not write the tax laws he profited from. It might be worth considering why the capital gains rates are set like they are, and what it would do to change them.
He gave away more than he paid in taxes. I would interested to know where the other 3 million went.
Someone have a link to the 500 pages?
| 464 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:36:10am |
re: #462 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I like what Joe Hill did. He's an author... the son of Stephen King.
His book "Heart Shaped Box" was thoroughly enjoyable to me. As I was reading it, I thought, "Damn, this guy writes like Stephen King."
Reporters had to dig up his familial relationship.
I wish the Kellermans would not be so blatant about their familial novel-writing.
| 465 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:36:59am |
re: #462 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Reading King's time-travel/Kennedy-saving latest novel. So far, so good, from the first pages. The only major gripe: "pokhoda cyka" is nonsense in Russian. Next time use a dictionary, Mr. King!
| 467 |
Daniel Ballard Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:40:59am |
re: #459 Sergey Romanov
You could Page that.
| 468 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:41:00am |
re: #465 Sergey Romanov
(For those who care, the premise of this book also seems to explain the "annoying" ending of the Dark Tower series, making it less mysterious.)
| 469 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:41:26am |
| 470 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:42:03am |
| 471 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:42:05am |
re: #418 Rightwingconspirator
Yet, I would not go so far as to think less of a person that had inherited vs. made big money. It's a crappy basis for disdain. Most of us would like to leave some security for our children. That does not compute with disdain for those who inherited. What a person does with their money and actions speaks loud enough.
That's where some sense of humility and gratitude comes in.
Inheriting money is not a bad thing. But there's a way to act and a way not to act when you've done so.
| 472 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:43:03am |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
That's where some sense of humility and gratitude comes in.
Inheriting money is not a bad thing. But there's a way to act and a way not to act when you've done so.
Rule #1: Don't quit your day job.
| 473 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:45:51am |
re: #448 Lidane
That dog whistle just became an air raid siren:
Handwritten note at the source.
I'm sure that will play well in the general election. How soon before the Freepers and wingnuts defend Newt on this?
What percentage of whites? Inquiring minds want to know. And do we break down along lines? Do the Scots-Irish and the Jews do better than the Italians and Poles in entrepreneurship comprehension?
| 474 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:45:52am |
re: #471 SanFranciscoZionist
That's where some sense of humility and gratitude comes in.
Inheriting money is not a bad thing. But there's a way to act and a way not to act when you've done so.
There's also the question surrounding the extent to which we should correct wealth imbalances that were caused in the past by social situations which would be intolerable today.
If an aristocratic family has inherited vast wealth amassed by medieval chicanery, do they get to keep it?
| 475 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:46:56am |
re: #474 iossarian
There's also the question surrounding the extent to which we should correct wealth imbalances that were caused in the past by social situations which would be intolerable today.
If an aristocratic family has inherited vast wealth amassed by medieval chicanery, do they get to keep it?
ROBBER BARONS!!!
(The real ones)
| 476 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:48:04am |
| 477 |
Alexzander Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:49:12am |
re: #465 Sergey Romanov
Reading King's time-travel/Kennedy-saving latest novel. So far, so good, from the first pages. The only major gripe: "pokhoda cyka" is nonsense in Russian. Next time use a dictionary, Mr. King!
OT Sergey:
I recently read about the conspiratorial views on the Russian apartment bombings during the 90s and the Lubyanka Criminal Group in general. Do you have strong views on those matters? Are those topics that are well discussed, or mostly ignored?
| 478 |
iossarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:50:32am |
re: #476 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I just read your "LGF Statement" on your nic.
That's a nifty quote.
Thanks! It's my wording, but I think I got the original idea from Terry Pratchett.
| 479 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:53:42am |
re: #477 Alexzander
I do have a strong opinion on the apartment bombings, after reading through the accusatory materials (and I have actually seen that NTV program in 1999, on which many conspiracists rely, live on TV). As far as I'm concerned, the "FSB did it" is CT nonsense, not qualitatively different from "CIA did 9/11". (More narrowly, "the case not proven".) If you have particular questions, don't hesitate to ask. (Not immediately, since I'm leaving for home now.)
I have not read the LCG book.
| 480 |
Alexzander Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:55:01am |
re: #479 Sergey Romanov
I do have a strong opinion on the apartment bombings, after reading through the accusatory materials (and I have actually seen that NTV program in 1999, on which many conspiracists rely, live on TV). As far as I'm concerned, the "FSB did it" is CT nonsense, not qualitatively different from "CIA did 9/11". (More narrowly, "the case not proven".) If you have particular questions, don't hesitate to ask. (Not immediately, since I'm leaving for home now.)
I have not read the LCG book.
Thanks for the response. I prob have some specific questions but I'm running out the door too so it will have to wait for another time.
| 481 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 9:59:28am |
Mkay. Went to look at the 2011 forms. The Romneys gave something like 1.5 million to the Tyler Foundation in stocks and cash.
If google is correct, this is a Massachusetts-based foundation that helps pay expenses for families with children diagnosed with epilepsy.
| 482 |
Vicious Babushka Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:00:21am |
re: #481 EmmmieG
Mkay. Went to look at the 2011 forms. The Romneys gave something like 1.5 million to the Tyler Foundation in stocks and cash.
If google is correct, this is a Massachusetts-based foundation that helps pay expenses for families with children diagnosed with epilepsy.
Noblesse oblige.
| 483 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:02:17am |
re: #482 Alouette
Noblesse oblige.
Full disclosure: I have a nephew with epilepsy. They have to travel to another town for treatment, etc.
| 484 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:03:19am |
re: #481 EmmmieG
Mkay. Went to look at the 2011 forms. The Romneys gave something like 1.5 million to the Tyler Foundation in stocks and cash.
If google is correct, this is a Massachusetts-based foundation that helps pay expenses for families with children diagnosed with epilepsy.
Good for them!
| 485 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:03:47am |
Nope. Their Tyler Foundation is a different foundation than the other Tyler Foundation.
The Romney family Tyler Foundation gives money out to various charities.
| 486 |
Alexzander Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:06:22am |
I hope he gave a sizable donation to the Human Fund.
| 487 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:08:41am |
re: #481 EmmmieG
Mkay. Went to look at the 2011 forms. The Romneys gave something like 1.5 million to the Tyler Foundation in stocks and cash.
If google is correct, this is a Massachusetts-based foundation that helps pay expenses for families with children diagnosed with epilepsy.
That bastard!
| 488 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:09:55am |
Okay, when you enter in Tyler Charitable Foundation, you find the 2006 tax stuff. Bear in mind this is for six years ago.
For charities they gave to in 2006, look at pages 27-29.
[Link: www.guidestar.org...]
| 489 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:12:01am |
re: #295 Obdicut
Wanna make a bet that Al Gore doesn't have some money in the Caymans? Michael Moore? Barbra Streisand? Kennedy's? Right wing fringies?
And I think, consistently, that any of them do who are assholes.
Just so it is clear. Mitt Romney is showing that he is NOT avoiding taxes by having money offshore. He is paying US Federal taxes on ALL of his income, including that which is offshore.
His reason to have money offshore is because that is where the investments are, and he (in this case) invests with a group of people.
This is not a tax dodge, or even an "invest off show to give jobs to foreigners" dodge.
Let me give you an example. IF your company (in the USA) was importing from or exporting to somewhere in the Caribbean. You might need to set up a shop in the Caribbean in order to control the orders, quality and supply. You would also keep money there in order to buy and sell items.
I repeat for clarity, Mitt Romney is paying US Federal taxes on ALL of his income, including that which is comes form offshore investments.
| 490 |
Mostly sane, most of the time. Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:14:17am |
Sorry for the false lead. The Massachusetts connection misled me, although I was wondering why it was just this one charity.
| 491 |
SanFranciscoZionist Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:15:35am |
re: #489 Buck
And I think, consistently, that any of them do who are assholes.
Just so it is clear. Mitt Romney is showing that he is NOT avoiding taxes by having money offshore. He is paying US Federal taxes on ALL of his income, including that which is offshore.
His reason to have money offshore is because that is where the investments are, and he (in this case) invests with a group of people.
This is not a tax dodge, or even an "invest off show to give jobs to foreigners" dodge.
Let me give you an example. IF your company (in the USA) was importing from or exporting to somewhere in the Caribbean. You might need to set up a shop in the Caribbean in order to control the orders, quality and supply. You would also keep money there in order to buy and sell items.
I repeat for clarity, Mitt Romney is paying US Federal taxes on ALL of his income, including that which is comes form offshore investments.
Give me an actual example. What investments is Mitt making overseas that he has money in and is paying U.S. taxes on?
| 492 |
recusancy Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:16:17am |
re: #427 ggt
In the case of Romney, while I don't want him as POTUS, I have to respect that he suits-up every day. He doesn't have to.
LOL
| 493 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:27:12am |
re: #491 SanFranciscoZionist
Give me an actual example. What investments is Mitt making overseas that he has money in and is paying U.S. taxes on?
His tax form does not itemize his investments that way, however it does show his offshore income, and it is included in his investment income.
He has also stated this multiple times.
Romney advisers stressed that the holdings in the Caymans - along with those in a Swiss bank account that was closed in 2010 after an investment adviser decided it could be politically embarrassing to Romney - were reported on tax returns and were not vehicles to avoid taxes.
Unlike a well known high level Democrat that recently got caught NOT placing the income on his tax form (cough Charles Rangel, cough).
| 494 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 10:41:03am |
Brad Malt, a lawyer who serves as trustee of the Romneys' blind trusts, said Romney pays all U.S. taxes on income from the trusts' foreign investments. Further, he said Romney has no role in choosing how the blind trusts invest his money.
"The blind trust investments in the Cayman funds are taxed exactly as if Gov. Romney owned his share of the funds in the United States," Malt said.
[Link: money.cnn.com...]
| 495 |
reine.de.tout Tue, Jan 24, 2012 11:13:10am |
re: #362 thedopefishlives
I'm surprised. Most tax programs these days have a built-in return checker that should eliminate this. Or does he do them on paper? Me, I'm a TurboTax addict, have been for many years. I actually enjoy filing my taxes.
Paper. Always paper. He will not pay for anything to help with taxes. Not even TurboTax.
| 496 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 1:20:45pm |
Just to even clearer. Mitt Romney, when he was earning money in the form of salaried (earned) income, paid taxes on that money at the higher rate. He then took what was left over, and invested the after tax income, in companies. Those companies (if they made a profit) paid taxes at the higher rate on the profit they generated and then paid the investors dividends (if there was enough left over). The Investors (eg Romney) then pay tax (a lower rate) on that "unearned income".
He earned the money that he later invested. He didn't win the lottery, he didn't inherit it, or marry into it. He earned it, and he paid taxes on those earnings.
The tax code gives people who invest (again after tax money) in companies a tax break on the dividends (or capital gains) that they might earn.
The reason for that was to encourage people to invest in companies. Companies that hire employees. Companies that contribute to the GDP.
If the tax cost to investing were to double, what would be the unintended consequence?
| 497 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 24, 2012 1:47:01pm |
re: #496 Buck
Just to even clearer. Mitt Romney, when he was earning money in the form of salaried (earned) income, paid taxes on that money at the higher rate. He then took what was left over, and invested the after tax income, in companies. Those companies (if they made a profit) paid taxes at the higher rate on the profit they generated and then paid the investors dividends (if there was enough left over). The Investors (eg Romney) then pay tax (a lower rate) on that "unearned income".
He earned the money that he later invested. He didn't win the lottery, he didn't inherit it, or marry into it. He earned it, and he paid taxes on those earnings.
The tax code gives people who invest (again after tax money) in companies a tax break on the dividends (or capital gains) that they might earn.
The reason for that was to encourage people to invest in companies. Companies that hire employees. Companies that contribute to the GDP.If the tax cost to investing were to double, what would be the unintended consequence?
Yes who of us out there are afraid to invest because if the investment paid off we'd make less money?
So long as investment pays off better than banks pay per year in interest you're only cutting off your nose to spite your face if you take money out of the market because your returns will be taxed more heavily than they used to be.
| 498 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:08:14pm |
re: #497 jamesfirecat
So long as investment pays off better than banks pay per year in interest
Knowing that in advance is the real trick. Risk / reward.
Have you ever invested? Have you ever bought stock? Dividend stock?
Miscrosoft stock pays a dividend yield of 2.73%/year. Is that better than the bank?
| 499 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 2:58:53pm |
So if Obama suggests doubling the tax rate for dividends and Cap gains.... who wants to bet he creates an exception for unions and pension funds?
Of course Pensions, and Unions are two groups that have benefited over the years from the lower investment income tax rate.
| 500 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:17:51pm |
re: #498 Buck
Knowing that in advance is the real trick. Risk / reward.
Have you ever invested? Have you ever bought stock? Dividend stock?
Miscrosoft stock pays a dividend yield of 2.73%/year. Is that better than the bank?
Nope sorry Buck right now I'm making $300 dollars a month at a start up company.
That said I look forward to seeing Mitt Romney's tax returns, what companies he invested in and just how many jobs they created with all that money he gave them and all that profit they had!
| 501 |
Buck Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:23:27pm |
re: #500 jamesfirecat
That said I look forward to seeing Mitt Romney's tax returns, what companies he invested in and just how many jobs they created with all that money he gave them and all that profit they had!
No ones tax return has than much detail. He has blind trusts that invest his money, and he shows the money they send him. Asking for that much detail is a bit of a double standard.
Don't you think that level of detail is a lot like the truthers asking for Obama's school records? Or those who want to get details in how Obama could afford that nice house he has in Chicago?
It is silly.
| 502 |
jamesfirecat Tue, Jan 24, 2012 3:33:00pm |
re: #501 Buck
No ones tax return has than much detail. He has blind trusts that invest his money, and he shows the money they send him. Asking for that much detail is a bit of a double standard.
Don't you think that level of detail is a lot like the truthers asking for Obama's school records? Or those who want to get details in how Obama could afford that nice house he has in Chicago?
It is silly.
No I didn't know that (as mentioned before has only been out of college for a year and a half and am technically not even employed at the moment since I'm making well below the minimum wage) so thank you for correcting me.
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