George Zimmerman’s father gave an interview to a Florida TV station tonight, and said he “never foresaw so much hate coming from the President.”
The only statement President Obama made: “If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon.”
Youtube Video1 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:41:11pm |
That clunk you heard was GZ's lawyer shitting a brick.
| 3 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:42:06pm |
Possibly relevant:
| 4 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:42:16pm |
Well, we can see where George got his sense of being able to get away with it.
| 5 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:43:00pm |
George thought he might have a problem when Trayvon turned around exclaimed "What you say bout my momma??" #shitzimmermansays
— Ta-Nehisi Coates (@tanehisi) March 29, 2012
| 6 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:46:39pm |
It's all Obama's fault!
Bless his heart he does know who his most likely sympathetic audience is: Obama haters. If Obama is for Trayvon, they must be for Zimmerman.
| 7 |
pinkbunny Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:46:49pm |
Wow...just wow...I have lost all sympathy for George Zimmerman's dad for any harassment he was getting.
He's defending his son, I get that. If he wants to get on TV and say his son didn't do anything wrong, that's one thing. But to put hate toward President Obama? That's just ridiculous.
| 8 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:47:25pm |
| 9 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:50:14pm |
Obama's fault? And the slur is about bleeding heart liberals? Your GOP heart is grasping. See Cheney for advice.
| 10 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:50:39pm |
re: #5 jaunte
If only Barbara Billingsly had been around to translate "Jive".
| 12 |
b_sharp Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:51:51pm |
re: #7 pinkbunny
Wow...just wow...I have lost all sympathy for George Zimmerman's dad for any harassment he was getting.
He's defending his son, I get that. If he wants to get on TV and say his son didn't do anything wrong, that's one thing. But to put hate toward President Obama? That's just ridiculous.
He's been primed by Faux News.
| 13 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:52:19pm |
| 14 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:54:38pm |
GZ's Dad: "He stalks and kills one innocent kid and they want to make my son the bad guy!"
| 15 |
Lidane Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:54:51pm |
Ladies and gents, the latest Fox News host, George Zimmerman's dad.
I'm fully expecting him to hit the speaker circuit and ghostwrite a book for the RWNJ dupes talking about how his son is a martyr for Obama's hate and for gun rights advocates everywhere.
| 16 |
Linden Arden Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:55:16pm |
re: #11 freetoken
Do the Zimmerman's project much?
It could be called a "Romney" - def: a statement aimed at President Obama without a shred of truth to it designed strictly for political gain.
| 17 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:55:50pm |
re: #15 Lidane
Ladies and gents, the latest Fox News host, George Zimmerman's dad.
I'm fully expecting him to hit the speaker circuit and ghostwrite a book for the RWNJ dupes talking about how his son is a martyr for Obama's hate and for gun rights advocates everywhere.
I'm waiting for the NRA to call him up to be a spokesman.
| 18 |
Lidane Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:57:18pm |
re: #17 Targetpractice
I'm waiting for the NRA to call him up to be a spokesman.
Oh, I'm sure that's on the list.
| 19 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Mar 28, 2012 8:58:44pm |
re: #9 Hoodies for Justice. T
Obama's fault? And the slur is about bleeding heart liberals? Your GOP heart is grasping. See Cheney for advice.
Ain't been 'nary a word of sympathy for George Zimmerman, not from Santorum nor Romney. Santorum was quite hostile to Zimmerman's actions.
And it goes without saying that calling the claim that Obama's put out any hate at all on this 'horseshit' is an insult to equine feces.
| 20 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:00:04pm |
The only statement President Obama made: “If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon.”
Maybe it's just because I'm white, and I have no idea what it's like to live on this planet as any other color, but I interpreted that statement as one of sympathy and understanding rather than one intended to inject racial issues or hatred into the mix.
| 21 |
andres Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:00:13pm |
This is a misdirection to prevent the Zimmermans face the facts, the facts being that 1) his son killed an innocent young man and 2) the police/DA botched the case.
| 22 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:02:08pm |
re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
You might be one of those people who aren't inclined to put the worst possible spin on anything the President says or does. You know, sane people.
| 23 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:03:03pm |
re: #18 Lidane
Oh, I'm sure that's on the list.
Somehow I doubt that. The NRA didn't intend "stand your ground" to be taken to mean "chase down people who you think are suspicious". George Zimmerman acted like a racist asshole and killed someone who was not a criminal. I doubt the NRA will want anything to do with him.
| 24 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:03:07pm |
re: #22 jaunte
You might be one of those people who aren't inclined to put the worst possible spin on anything the President says or does. You know, sane people.
WHAT THE HELL DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?
| 25 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:03:40pm |
| 26 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:41pm |
You know, looking on this again, I think we can safely say that Robert Zimmerman is not some master strategist who is using his pull within the legal community to get his son off on a murder charge.
Unless he's going the Dubya route of obfuscating stupidity to disguise a diabolically crafty mind.
//
| 27 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:04:57pm |
Oh, now I see why Zimmerman is a liar. His parents are obviously perfectly ok with distortion and lies as well
| 28 |
Lidane Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:05:06pm |
re: #23 Dark_Falcon
Somehow I doubt that.
I wouldn't put a thing past those nutjobs. I'm sure someone will hire Zimmerman's dad as a spokesman for the poor, maligned gun owner who just wants to defend himself and preserve law and order from those horrible thugs that wear hoodies and buy candy and drinks from convenience stores.
Yes, I really am that cynical about the RWNJs.
| 30 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:05:40pm |
re: #19 Dark_Falcon
Ain't been 'nary a word of sympathy for George Zimmerman, not from Santorum nor Romney. Santorum was quite hostile to Zimmerman's actions.
And it goes without saying that calling the claim that Obama's put out any hate at all on this 'horseshit' is an insult to equine feces.
you heard about the Fox segment, analyzing by a Dr. that Trayvon would NOT look like President Obama?
Off the hatred racist deep end ole Fox went. But it was a commentary segment, not a "news" segment.
| 31 |
Amory Blaine Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:06:12pm |
Was Zimmermann treated at the site of the shooting by medical personnel?
| 32 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:06:25pm |
re: #30 Hoodies for Justice. T
Are you kidding me? They brought a doctor on and did that?
| 33 |
b_sharp Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:06:47pm |
re: #22 jaunte
You might be one of those people who aren't inclined to put the worst possible spin on anything the President says or does. You know, sane people.
In the current GOP environment, sanity and conservatism are mutually exclusive.
They're damaging their own belief structure.
| 34 |
SpaceJesus Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:06:53pm |
re: #31 Amory Blaine
was given some kind of first aid by cops
| 35 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:07:12pm |
re: #31 Amory Blaine
Was Zimmermann treated at the site of the shooting by medical personnel?
Paramedics supposedly looked him over and patched him up, according to the police report.
| 36 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:08:44pm |
re: #32 SpaceJesus
Are you kidding me? They brought a doctor on and did that?
An expert TV doctor: [Link: en.wikipedia.org...]
| 37 |
Gus Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:09:12pm |
re: #35 Targetpractice
Paramedics supposedly looked him over and patched him up, according to the police report.
What did they do? Give him some hand cream and a couple of sprays of cologne to freshen him up?
| 38 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:09:21pm |
re: #32 SpaceJesus
Are you kidding me? They brought a doctor on and did that?
One of their shitty house doctors, Keith Ablow
| 39 |
Eclectic Infidel Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:09:53pm |
Geesh. This is the drama that never seems to end. Multiple Golden Stapler awards available for Zimmerman and Co.
| 40 |
Amory Blaine Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:09:56pm |
So they checked him out and determined that he was healthy enough to stand, walk and be handcuffed behind his back.
| 41 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:10:28pm |
re: #14 Kragar
GZ's Dad: "He stalks and kills one innocent kid and they want to make my son the bad guy!"
In fairness to him, most people would not want to believe this about their own child, until they had no other choice and even then they would still love him/her. No parent throws their kid under the bus that quickly. He is a desperate man grasping at anything to absolve his son. I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be murdered and I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be a murderer. I won't cry him a river, but I get that he wants to believe his son.
| 42 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:10:44pm |
re: #37 Gus
What did they do? Give him some hand cream and a couple of sprays of cologne to freshen him up?
They broke out the medkit, used a hypospray to inject him with analgesics, then cleaned up the wounds with a dermal regenerator.
//
| 43 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:11:00pm |
re: #32 SpaceJesus
Are you kidding me? They brought a doctor on and did that?
Yep, someone talked about it 1 or 2 threads ago. I forget the Dr.'s name
| 44 |
funky chicken Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:11:08pm |
re: #13 Targetpractice
It seems victimhood runs in the family.
It seems delusional wingnuttery runs in the family.
| 45 |
Amory Blaine Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:12:06pm |
re: #42 Targetpractice
They broke out the medkit, used a hypospray to inject him with analgesics, then cleaned up the wounds with a dermal regenerator.
//
| 46 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:12:39pm |
re: #35 Targetpractice
Paramedics supposedly looked him over and patched him up, according to the police report.
Yeah, we just can't see an patches on him.
| 47 |
Digital Display Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:12:39pm |
re: #31 Amory Blaine
Was Zimmermann treated at the site of the shooting by medical personnel?
I effen hope so..After getting your nose broke and your head slammed on the street and blood every where..GZ looked pretty damn good to me.You don't need to be a cop to see that....
| 48 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:13:39pm |
re: #41 moderatelyradicalliberal
In fairness to him, most people would not want to believe this about their own child, until they had no other choice and even then they would still love him/her. No parent throws their kid under the bus that quickly. He is a desperate man grasping at anything to absolve his son. I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be murdered and I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be a murderer. I won't cry him a river, but I get that he wants to believe his son.
ya, imagine.
| 49 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:13:39pm |
re: #22 jaunte
You might be one of those people who aren't inclined to put the worst possible spin on anything the President says or does. You know, sane people.
Well now, let's not go rushing to judgement.
| 50 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:15:34pm |
re: #43 Hoodies for Justice. T
Yep, someone talked about it 1 or 2 threads ago. I forget the Dr.'s name
His previous claim to fame:
Ablow wrote a column arguing that Newt Gingrich's three marriages actually made him more qualified to be president: "When three women want to sign on for life with a man who is now running for president, I worry more about whether we’ll be clamoring for a third Gingrich term, not whether we’ll want to let him go after one."
| 51 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:17:23pm |
What is awfully worrisome is that someone (father) involved with an investigation, in Florida, invokes the President? As at fault in some way?
THIS IS NOT ABOUT RACE?
| 52 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:17:36pm |
re: #50 Kragar
His previous claim to fame:
Ah right, the guy who thought Newt's ability to bed anything that clamors for money means he's presidential material.
| 53 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:18:05pm |
| 56 |
jaunte Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:19:31pm |
My son just came home; no gunshot wounds from overzealous trigger-happy neighborhood watch volunteers. Now I can relax.
| 57 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:19:44pm |
good night now. wonder about my dreams tonight.
Hopefully about cliffs, car crashes, or my feet being unable to move.
Better than this shit.
| 58 |
Dark_Falcon Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:19:50pm |
re: #30 Hoodies for Justice. T
you heard about the Fox segment, analyzing by a Dr. that Trayvon would NOT look like President Obama?
Off the hatred racist deep end ole Fox went. But it was a commentary segment, not a "news" segment.
No, I hadn't heard. No point to that, save flinging mud at Obama for ratings.
re: #28 Lidane
I wouldn't put a thing past those nutjobs. I'm sure someone will hire Zimmerman's dad as a spokesman for the poor, maligned gun owner who just wants to defend himself and preserve law and order from those horrible thugs that wear hoodies and buy candy and drinks from convenience stores.
Yes, I really am that cynical about the RWNJs.
Someone likely will, but it'll be one of those Internet groups who spreads rumors that bills the NRA has already vetted and signed off on are "plots to grab yer gunz!!1" I'm not kidding; The internet rumor mill is so bad that earlier this year the NRA had to use the entire column for its legislative arm in its "American Rifleman" magazine solely to smack down wild net-based rumors. The rumor mongers will love the Zimmermans, regaling the off-the-chart loons with harrowing tales of George's "persecution by the gun-grabbing ape-tyrant Obama!".
| 59 |
blueraven Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:24:20pm |
re: #41 moderatelyradicalliberal
In fairness to him, most people would not want to believe this about their own child, until they had no other choice and even then they would still love him/her. No parent throws their kid under the bus that quickly. He is a desperate man grasping at anything to absolve his son. I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be murdered and I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be a murderer. I won't cry him a river, but I get that he wants to believe his son.
I agree. However, the obvious hostility toward Obama and others he mentioned, makes me wonder about the whole racial aspect all over again.
Did George Zimmerman share this hatred and is it because of race?
| 60 |
Digital Display Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:25:54pm |
re: #57 Hoodies for Justice. T
good night now. wonder about my dreams tonight.
Hopefully about cliffs, car crashes, or my feet being unable to move.
Better than this shit.
may you dream of flying off the cliff and being able to fly above the Earth.
May you dream and understand the mysteries of the Universe and forget about it the next morning.
May all your dreams come true
| 61 |
allegro Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:26:12pm |
re: #59 blueraven
I agree. However, the obvious hostility toward Obama and others he mentioned, makes me wonder about the whole racial aspect all over again.
Did George Zimmerman share this hatred and is it because of race?
Is it a Zimmerman family value?
| 62 |
freetoken Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:26:43pm |
So, I'm chipping away at some genealogy stuff... lots of interesting little tidbits here and there.
Fortunately, there is no evidence I'm related to these Zimmermans (at least any though direct descent during the past couple of centuries.)
| 63 |
Lidane Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:31:05pm |
re: #32 SpaceJesus
Are you kidding me? They brought a doctor on and did that?
Fox Doctor Keith Ablow: Obama's Son 'Wouldn't Look Anything Like Trayvon Martin' (VIDEO)
| 64 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:33:48pm |
re: #59 blueraven
I agree. However, the obvious hostility toward Obama and others he mentioned, makes me wonder about the whole racial aspect all over again.
Did George Zimmerman share this hatred and is it because of race?
I think race plays into this in 3 ways:
1. Zimmerman presumed Trayvon was a threat and didn't belong where he was because he was black.
2. The police took Zimmerman's word that Trayvon was a treat and did a half-ass "investigation" to clear Zimmerman. Trayvon's death meant nothing to them. A dead white kid would have been much more problematic.
3. Most white people can't imagine their kid being shot dead because of the suspicion of criminality on sight, but most black people can because they have been subject to the same suspicion numerous times in their own lives. Obama's comment about having a son who would look like Trayvon is a testament to the fact that no black person is immune. Obama himself has been stopped by the police while jogging through his own neighborhood in Hyde park before he was famous. Education and economic status does not preclude racial profiling. You are a suspect until proven otherwise. Hopefully you won't be dead like Trayvon when that proof comes in.
| 65 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:35:12pm |
re: #63 Lidane
Fox Doctor Keith Ablow: Obama's Son 'Wouldn't Look Anything Like Trayvon Martin' (VIDEO)
Thank you Oprah.
Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, and Dr. Ablow. You, through your show, have truly bestowed upon us the greatest intellects of our generation.
/
| 66 |
prairiefire Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:37:18pm |
Thanks for all of the attention to this issue, Charles!
| 67 |
moderatelyradicalliberal Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:39:01pm |
re: #63 Lidane
Fox Doctor Keith Ablow: Obama's Son 'Wouldn't Look Anything Like Trayvon Martin' (VIDEO)
"If the President had a son, he wouldn't look anything like Trayvon Martin," Ablow said. "He'd be wearing a blazer from his prep school, he'd be driving a Beemer and he'd be surrounded by Secret Service. So the president saying 'I can only feel for this kid because he looks physically like me' is absurd ... what about the united view that everybody appreciates what it is to lose a son of any color?"
A black man driving a Beemer would be highly likely to be pulled over by the cops. Driving expensive cars has always prompted racial profiling of black men. Socio-economic status does not shield black men from racial profiling. President Obama knows that from personal experience.
| 68 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:42:41pm |
re: #65 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Thank you Oprah.
Dr. Phil, Dr. Oz, and Dr. Ablow. You, through your show, have truly bestowed upon us the greatest intellects of our generation.
/
No joke, had a Paulian awhile back engaging in screaming fits over the FDA, convinced by Dr. Oz that they were allowing apple juice on the market that was downright toxic with all the arsenic in it. She said we needed to get rid of the FDA and rely on guys like him to tell us what was and wasn't safe to use.
Oh, if only the snakeoil salesman of yesteryear had the sort of audience that Oprah has granted to these yahoos.
| 69 |
Varek Raith Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:43:05pm |
| 70 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:46:31pm |
re: #63 Lidane
"... in the middle of a national controversy, in part created by the President himself."
Er, seemed like a pretty big controversy to me already, which is why I think the POTUS decided to comment on it.
And BTW, fuck him for trying to offer words of comfort to a grieving family.///
| 71 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:49:52pm |
re: #68 Targetpractice
Yeah, the prefect plan. Let's get the dude who wants to abolish all gov't regulations to, um... regulate stuff. What could possibly go wrong?
| 72 |
prairiefire Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:52:04pm |
re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Yeah, the prefect plan. Let's get the dude who wants to abolish all gov't regulations to, um... regulate stuff. What could possibly go wrong?
I would like for more conservatives to have your viewpoint.
| 73 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:54:47pm |
re: #72 prairiefire
I would like for more conservatives to have your viewpoint.
How to deal with a "we don't need regulations" wingnut:
Ask them if they've read "The Jungle".
If no, ignore them till they do.
If yes, ask wtf is wrong with them.
| 74 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:55:56pm |
re: #71 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Yeah, the prefect plan. Let's get the dude who wants to abolish all gov't regulations to, um... regulate stuff. What could possibly go wrong?
It's the loonies who are convinced that the problem is that federal regulators are too easy to bribe, so the "solution" is to instead rely upon 50 different regulators to do the same job. Or, better yet, to just do away with regulations and let folks rely upon people like Dr. Oz and magazines like Consumer Reports to let them know what's safe and what's not.
| 75 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:56:20pm |
re: #72 prairiefire
Dying breed, sister. Or so it would seem.
Heh, or maybe I just have a unique take on what being a conservative means.
| 76 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:12pm |
re: #73 Kragar
How to deal with a "we don't need regulations" wingnut:
Ask them if they've read "The Jungle".
If no, ignore them till they do.
If yes, ask wtf is wrong with them.
They always answer with "That was then, this is now!," positively convinced that we can't slip back into that state of affairs because they'll be watching the companies like hawks.
Or, at least they will until they see $.99/lb ground beef and decide that cheap meat is better than safe meat.
| 77 |
Gus Wed, Mar 28, 2012 9:58:53pm |
Ha! Good one. Ready for this? Daily Caller is using Photoshop to "enhance a head injury on George Zimmerman."
| 78 |
WINDUPBIRD DISEASE [S.K.U.M.M.] Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:00:22pm |
the murderer is the victim!
what a joke
| 79 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:05pm |
re: #77 Gus
Ha! Good one. Ready for this? Daily Caller is using Photoshop to "enhance a head injury on George Zimmerman."
If that's a head wound, it's the cleanest I've ever seen. No redness, no swelling, no dried blood. And clearly not bandage or gauze, which would be a must for a scalp laceration.
Meanwhile, there's still no explanation for how a broken nose exhibits no swelling or bruising, and doesn't a splint on it.
| 80 |
Varek Raith Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:09pm |
re: #77 Gus
Ha! Good one. Ready for this? Daily Caller is using Photoshop to "enhance a head injury on George Zimmerman."
He wouldn't be walking around with an injury like that.
FAIL.
| 81 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:04:16pm |
re: #73 Kragar
How to deal with a "we don't need regulations" wingnut:
Ask them if they've read "The Jungle".
Never read it myself, but I suppose I should?
Any how we have federal level regulations for a reason, and it's not because HITLER!!!
And maybe the FDA fucks up here and there, but the good it does and has done should not be laughed off.
| 82 |
MittDoesNotCompute Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:05:12pm |
re: #42 Targetpractice
They broke out the medkit, used a hypospray to inject him with analgesics, then cleaned up the wounds with a dermal regenerator.
//
Was it Dr. Zimmerman or the Mark I EMH?
///
| 83 |
prairiefire Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:05:20pm |
re: #75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Dying breed, sister. Or so it would seem.
Heh, or maybe I just have a unique take on what being a conservative means.
I have heard too many similar opinions to consider you unique! It seems to be a strong contingent of American "we aren't so sure about that". There will be at least 35% against Obama on that alone
| 84 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:09:04pm |
re: #83 prairiefire
From my perspective, Obama is leaning far more conservative than the reactionaries the GOP is currently fielding. Let the wingnuts suck on that.
| 85 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:10:41pm |
re: #81 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Never read it myself, but I suppose I should?
Any how we have federal level regulations for a reason, and it's not because HITLER!!!
And maybe the FDA fucks up here and there, but the good it does and has done should not be laughed off.
Everyone should try and read it at least once.
| 87 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:19:39pm |
Heh, reading through the youtube comments on the several versions of the video now posted are a hoot. Apparently his defenders are all convinced that the cop looking at the back of GZ's head was "proof" that there's a wound there. And they're shrugging off lack of blood by saying that his jacket would mask any blood from his wounds.
By tomorrow, they'll all have that Daily Caller still blown up to poster size and have it across the net, declaring that they have the "proof" they need.
| 88 |
freetoken Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:23:08pm |
Mercifully off topic: Running down ancestor information, I notice that counties in this country vary widely in how they've kept records, and how even now the access to the records span from searchable free online to hidden somewhere accessible only by paying hundreds of dollars.
STATES RIGHTS!!
Anyway, thankfully the US census is pretty much available (except where the Census records were lost in fires, etc.) Yes, the evil Census, tool of the UN to take over America (according to the wingnuts), but in reality mandated by the Constitution for very good reasons.
There's a big hole in my genealogy, since my mother never knew her father (not unusual I guess.) I've got a name - which has never been independently verified (i.e., my maternal grandmother could have lied about her fling) so I'm looking for possible candidates to do genetic testing, since any other descendants of my maternal grandfather, or descendants of his siblings, should readily show up genetically as my 2nd or 3rd cousins.
| 89 |
efuseakay Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:25:37pm |
re: #77 Gus
Ha! Good one. Ready for this? Daily Caller is using Photoshop to "enhance a head injury on George Zimmerman."
[Link: www.hulu.com...]
| 90 |
Locker Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:27:01pm |
re: #20 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Maybe it's just because I'm white, and I have no idea what it's like to live on this planet as any other color, but I interpreted that statement as one of sympathy and understanding rather than one intended to inject racial issues or hatred into the mix.
Interesting take on his comment. After some thought I believe his message was "It's wrong to assume a black kid is up to no good, he could be the president's son." Just an impression but I think the message does indicate his believes there is at least some racial component to this whole episode.
| 91 |
Amory Blaine Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:33:37pm |
re: #88 freetoken
Some states still go by metes and bounds for land division. To quote the wiki example:
"beginning with a corner at the intersection of two stone walls near an apple tree on the north side of Muddy Creek road one mile above the junction of Muddy and Indian Creeks, north for 150 rods to the end of the stone wall bordering the road, then northwest along a line to a large standing rock on the corner of John Smith's place, thence west 150 rods to the corner of a barn near a large oak tree, thence south to Muddy Creek road, thence down the side of the creek road to the starting point."
| 92 |
Joanne Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:35:52pm |
re: #41 moderatelyradicalliberal
In fairness to him, most people would not want to believe this about their own child, until they had no other choice and even then they would still love him/her. No parent throws their kid under the bus that quickly. He is a desperate man grasping at anything to absolve his son. I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be murdered and I don't ever want to know what it's like to have a child be a murderer. I won't cry him a river, but I get that he wants to believe his son.
So did the Van der Sloots (where dad was, again, a judge) and that turned rather poorly.
| 93 |
freetoken Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:38:34pm |
re: #91 Amory Blaine
Right now I'm more into looking for birth records (and death.)
I know reasonably well, to some depth, 3/4ths of my ancestry. It's the totally missing 1/4 that I'm trying to explore.
As for land... in one of the lineages for which I have the best records I have found online scanned real estate transactions from my ancestors in the 1700's. Some things in some states are easy to find, in others it's like pulling teeth.
| 94 |
Joanne Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:41:08pm |
re: #68 Targetpractice
No joke, had a Paulian awhile back engaging in screaming fits over the FDA, convinced by Dr. Oz that they were allowing apple juice on the market that was downright toxic with all the arsenic in it. She said we needed to get rid of the FDA and rely on guys like him to tell us what was and wasn't safe to use.
Oh, if only the snakeoil salesman of yesteryear had the sort of audience that Oprah has granted to these yahoos.
Mom loves Dr. Oz. after that apple juice thing, we strongly advised she alter her viewing habits. Hubby and I were both appalled by this guy, whom millions love. The level of ignorance was stunning. And I don't even like apple juice!
| 96 |
Joanne Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:42:55pm |
re: #75 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
Dying breed, sister. Or so it would seem.
Heh, or maybe I just have a unique take on what being a conservative means.
Well, it would be nice if someone in the GOP did.
| 97 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 10:46:13pm |
re: #90 Locker
Just an impression but I think the message does indicate his believes there is at least some racial component to this whole episode.
Perhaps. Maybe he saw the popular opinion leading that way, and decided to make a statement that indicates the current POTUS can identify with the concerns surrounding this incident. Illustrating how the "leader of the free world" himself could very well be in the Martin family's shoes right now, as a way to alleviate some of the tension this incident may invoke.
| 98 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:00:42pm |
re: #88 freetoken
Mercifully off topic:
FFS! Someone get this young man a part in a Jackie Chan movie.
| 99 |
Origuy Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:10:51pm |
Another book to read about why we need the FDA is The Poisoner's Handbook by Deborah Blum. It's about the development of forensic pathology in the early part of the 20th century. A lot of poisonings happened because of adulterated food and medication. It's a really good read.
| 100 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:12:53pm |
Ooh, I see interesting developments ... developed.
| 101 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:19:02pm |
re: #100 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Ooh, I see interesting developments ... developed.
I have a variety of eyeballs budding from my shoulders and forearms. Wanna fight about it?
| 102 |
AK-47% Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:20:44pm |
Black people are supposed to roll over and take what they get - if they fight back, it's branded racism, hatred, or in TM's case, "a deadly threat".
| 103 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:22:33pm |
re: #102 Second Amendment Renegation
Black people are supposed to roll over and take what they get - if they fight back, it's branded racism, hatred, or in TM's case, "a deadly threat".
Its only a war when someone fights back.
| 104 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:23:23pm |
re: #101 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
I have a variety of eyeballs budding from my shoulders and forearms. Wanna fight about it?
Nah, let's just pop'em together.
| 105 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:24:50pm |
re: #102 Second Amendment Renegation
I don't know all the facts involved in this case, and I don't care to speculate until they are all in. That said, there are many things coming to light that make this whole thing stink horribly.
| 106 |
Targetpractice Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:27:56pm |
re: #103 Kragar
Its only a war when someone fights back.
"Though I wouldn't call it a war, exactly. That suggests both sides stand an equal chance of winning."
| 107 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:30:18pm |
re: #104 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Nah, let's just pop'em together.
2 Dudes, Several Parasitic Eyeballs?
I don't think there's a market for that, even in Japan*.
*At first I was gonna type "... even in the darkest pits of hell."
| 108 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:40:43pm |
re: #107 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
2 Dudes, Several Parasitic Eyeballs?
I don't think there's a market for that, even in Japan*.
*At first I was gonna type "... even in the darkest pits of hell."
Been done already.
| 109 |
Amory Blaine Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:53:30pm |
Tragedies: The TacoCopter Was Just a Hoax
The new hotness that was the TacoCopter, the food-delivering unmanned aerial vehicle that took the internet by storm, has been revealed as a hoax by Wired.
The TacoCopter website promised "easy ordering on your smartphone" and "unmanned delivery agents" that are "fast and work tirelessly." But the dream of aerial taco delivery has been shattered: It turns out that the TacoCopter was simply a "product concept created by Star Simpson, an MIT grad" along with Dustin Boyer and Scott Torborg. Simpson admitted to creating the fake website so that he "would keep thinking about how to make something like this work."
Simpson believes it'll eventually be possible if the FAA relaxed its regulations and that "a network of command and recharging centers attached to kitchens capable of fulfilling demand orders could easily satisfy the taco delivery needs of a metropolitan area like San Francisco." For now though, no tacos from the sky.
NOOoooooo!!!!!!
| 110 |
AK-47% Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:54:21pm |
re: #109 Amory Blaine
Tragedies: The TacoCopter Was Just a Hoax
NOOooo!!!
My marketing idea: the Burrowing Burrito.
| 111 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:55:05pm |
re: #107 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
| 112 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:56:32pm |
re: #108 Kragar
| 113 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:57:04pm |
re: #110 Second Amendment Renegation
My marketing idea: the Burrowing Burrito.
I'll stick with the traditional monkey cowboy riding on a dog
| 114 |
Kragar Wed, Mar 28, 2012 11:59:18pm |
re: #112 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
I simply know it exists.
The perils of working internet security.
"Ok, we picked up suspicious activity, so lets see what the guy ... MY EYES!"
| 115 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:01:53am |
| 116 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:03:04am |
| 117 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:05:07am |
| 118 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:07:29am |
Of course, one time we were investigating someone for going to the site chickswithballs.net and it turned out to be a site dedicated to female athletes, so we had to make sure we actually visited the sites in question to verify what they were before writing them up after that particular incident.
| 121 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:11:31am |
| 122 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:14:46am |
re: #121 Kragar
I guess linking that kind of stupidity has a way of tripping up the anti-idiotarian hamsters. My bad.
| 123 |
Stormageddon, Dark Lord of All Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:17:36am |
Sorry Mr. Zimmerman, Hate is getting into your car and chasing someone down and killing him.
Any argument that George Zimmerman shouldn't be charged went away the moment he got in his car and provoked a confrontation. Maybe not Murder one (though a case can be made for premeditation based on the fact that he had the presence of mind to grab a gun before getting into his car), but certainly some sort of Manslaughter or Second Degree Murder.
| 124 |
Charles Johnson Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:19:45am |
Awwwwwww...that Chuckles Jazzy Ponytail...he tries so hard... littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40132_...— Mandy Nagy (@Liberty_Chick) March 29, 2012
| 125 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:20:12am |
re: #122 Slumbering Behemoth Stinks
After seeing this, may I borrow a couple of those eyeballs? Mine got scratched a bit.
| 126 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:27:29am |
re: #124 Charles Johnson
Does one normally commit so much time to address someone irrelevant and who they say they've blocked on twitter?
| 127 |
Slumbering Behemoth Stinks Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:31:00am |
re: #124 Charles Johnson
Awww...that Chuckles Jazzy Ponytail...he tries so hard... littlegreenfootballs.com/article/40132_...
— Mandy Nagy (@Liberty_Chick) March 29, 2012
Tries so hard at what? Not calling you things like "Chuckles Jazzy Ponytail"? I guess he wins, then, when it comes to that whole 'astounding level of maturity' thing you pretend at, Mandy.
| 128 |
abolitionist Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:47:14am |
A source with knowledge of the investigation into the shooting of Trayvon Martin tells theGrio that it was then Sanford police chief Bill Lee, along with Capt. Robert O'Connor, the investigations supervisor, who made the decision to release George Zimmerman on the night of February 26th, after consulting with State Attorney Norman Wolfinger -- in person.
Wolfinger's presence at the scene or at the police department in the night of a shooting would be unusual, according to the source. On a typical case, police contact the state attorney's office and speak with an on duty assistant state attorney; they either discuss the matter by phone or the on duty assistant state attorney comes to the crime scene - but rarely the state attorney him or herself.
There is a series of videos that play automatically. The first one (length 02:32) is about this "exclusive" news story.
From one of the videos (3rd, length 10:26, at about 02:22 to 03:20) this info: That gated neigborhood is about 20% african-american, about 25% asian, and about 49% white --Alexis
I'm now less convinced than ever that it was GZ that shot TM.
| 130 |
MittDoesNotCompute Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:14:07am |
re: #128 abolitionist
There is a series of videos that play automatically. The first one (length 02:32) is about this "exclusive" news story.
From one of the videos (3rd, length 10:26, at about 02:22 to 03:20) this info: That gated neigborhood is about 20% african-american, about 25% asian, and about 49% white --Alexis
I'm now less convinced than ever that it was GZ that shot TM.
You think it was that narcotics cop that did it? Whoo boy, if that were the case and this was an attempt to cover it up, Katie bar the door.
Talk about a world of shit...
| 131 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:29:18am |
re: #128 abolitionist
I'm now less convinced than ever that it was GZ that shot TM.
Yes, that was a heart attack. // Sheesh.
| 132 |
abolitionist Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:32:12am |
re: #130 talon_262
You think it was that narcotics cop that did it? Whoo boy, if that were the case and this was an attempt to cover it up, Katie bar the door.
Talk about a world of shit...
I'm seeing way too many outlandish inconsistencies in the "official" stories reported. 911 tapes indicate to me that "one officer" was there very early on, according to at least two 911 agents; the 911 call from a 30 year-old woman (3rd call?) hints that multiple "officers" may have resided within or nearby the gated community, according to what the caller and the agent were saying, and when they said it.
| 133 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:39:00am |
| 134 |
abolitionist Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:44:29am |
re: #133 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Cute cat. Yours?
| 135 |
researchok Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:45:35am |
re: #134 abolitionist
Too small to be Russian cat.
| 136 |
Aye Pod Thu, Mar 29, 2012 1:57:21am |
Morning folks!
Some of these new loudspeaker designs are downright sinister looking (yet also strangely cute):
| 137 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 2:48:40am |
Judge in Oklahoma killed their vaginal sonogram law.
[Link: m.newson6.com...]
| 138 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:11:24am |
Morning Lizards.
Overcast here south of Koln today. Work continues apace and I'm on the list to work both days this weekend now as well. :(
Nice pork cutlets last night, potatoes with speck, and the beers were 0.5 L. Thereafter I slept quite well.
What's new in West Lizardia?
| 139 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:12:28am |
re: #138 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
So no sightseeing as of yet?
| 140 |
Aye Pod Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:13:58am |
re: #124 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
Breitbrat, apparently wishing to be taken seriously, makes accusuation she is unable to back up, and when challenged on it, runs away screaming 'I'm not talking to you anymore you're just nasty! Ah'm just a gurl!'
| 141 |
HappyWarrior Thu, Mar 29, 2012 3:37:12am |
Yeah the attacks on Obama for saying what he said are ridiculous. So much hate? What about your son, Mr. Zimmerman? Typical Fox News. Doing all they can to attack President Obama for anything he does or says because they're hacks who only care about serving a viewership that hates Obama that much.
| 142 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 4:07:23am |
re: #139 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
So no sightseeing as of yet?
Little chance so far. Working 8-6, dinner and then little time before bed. Probably going to be this way the weekend, and all next week until I leave.
So this looks like just a scouting trip for a future vacation.
| 143 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 4:48:22am |
@D_v_E You're truly behaving in an ignorant way. I'm a 43yoLibertarian, hon. That's why I'd nvr assume to know & comment abt u personally.— Mandy Nagy (@Liberty_Chick) March 29, 2012
| 144 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 4:49:36am |
re: #143 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Ponytails aren't personal. They're public domain.
| 145 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Mar 29, 2012 4:51:16am |
| 146 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 4:53:04am |
| 147 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:13:51am |
| 148 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:22:57am |
Morning Lizardim. This Trayvon Martin case just keeps twisting and turning. I wonder exactly how George Zimmerman got those injuries that he was proudly sporting for his lawyer. As I stated in a previous comment, I doubt the true facts will ever come out in this case. Question for the legal lizards: Since he was never charged, is there any chance that new evidence and a new investigation could bring charges and a trial? Or is he completely off the hook for double jeopardy?
| 149 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:23:46am |
re: #148 thedopefishlives
Double jeopardy only exists if you were actually tried.
| 150 |
Douchecanoe and Ryan Too Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:25:34am |
re: #149 Obdicut
Double jeopardy only exists if you were actually tried.
Just wanted to make sure, since law is one of those areas where I still have a lot of learning to do.
| 151 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:27:42am |
re: #148 thedopefishlives
Yeah, it gets stranger and stranger. Not in the sense of surprising facts (nothing surprising if GZ lied), but in how it unfolds. Videos popping up, father behaving like a putz...
| 152 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:29:17am |
re: #145 Darth Vader Gargoyle
Good Morning Honcos!!!
More outrage at Occupy DC!! This is beyond the pale!!!
//
Where is Officer Peeperspray?
| 153 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:33:52am |
re: #151 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Zimmerman's dad sounds more sad than angry during the interview. I think we need to cut both sets of parents a little bit of slack. I think they've both behaved remarkably well considering the circumstances.
| 154 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:35:42am |
re: #153 RogueOne
I'd have agreed if Zimmerman's dad hadn't talked about hate coming from Obama. That was deranged.
| 155 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:40:22am |
re: #154 Obdicut
I don't know that I would be able to remain as calm and restrained as either set of parents. Both believe their kid did nothing wrong while one is dead and the other is trying to stay out of prison. I can see myself reacting much worse.
| 156 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:41:10am |
re: #155 RogueOne
I don't think that saying Obama is spreading hate is being calm and restrained, though.
What do you think you'd do in Zimmerman's dad's place that was more extreme than that?
| 157 |
simoom Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:41:15am |
Worth a read -- Dahlia Lithwick's write-up on yesterday's SC arguments:
[Link: www.slate.com...]
...
Look carefully at what Justice Kennedy just said: Don’t want to impose new risks on the insurance companies. Check. Striking down all of the 2,700 page statute—much of which regulates breastfeeding, Native American health, black lung treatment, and other things unrelated to the individual mandate—that’s the new judicial restraint.
Again, like the day before, not much law happens this morning. It’s all mainly a sort of free-form ramble by the justices over the complexities of congressional lawmaking.
...
The afternoon offers yet another opportunity for the court to forgo reading text and citing cases—the things they are meant to be good at—so they can have a good old-fashioned, foot-stomping policy debate about Bad Stuff the Federal Government Might Some Day Do. The theory that the states get such a great deal from the Medicaid expansion that they are “coerced” into participating was always deemed far-fetched. So much so that no lower court accepted the argument. But that didn’t stop the justices from having it briefed and argued, because, well, if the individual mandate can be struck down on the prospect that Congress may someday pass a broccoli mandate, the Medicaid expansion should surely be struck down on the likelihood that the secretary of Health and Human Services is like a gun-waving hostage taker forcing you to choose between “your money and your life.”
Justice Kagan can’t seem to understand why the case is even before her.
...
At some point, Kagan stops smiling at the silliness of the coercion talk and begins to look a little ill. Breyer also looks grimmer and grimmer as the afternoon wears on. Millions of people won’t be added to the welfare rolls because it would hurt the states’ dignity.
Who knows whether there are five votes here to strike the Medicaid expansion? There’s chatter along the way of the merits of the stimulus bill as well. One starts to get the sense that if HIPAA was on the table it could go down. The distinctive vibe as the three-day marathon closes is that the court has become a kind of free-floating panel from Dancing With the Stars: “Eh. That IX was a little floppy in the arms, no?”
| 158 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:41:33am |
re: #153 RogueOne
Zimmerman's dad sounds more sad than angry during the interview. I think we need to cut both sets of parents a little bit of slack. I think they've both behaved remarkably well considering the circumstances.
What's your basis for saying that about Zimmerman's parents? What have they done that impressed you?
| 159 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:44:53am |
re: #157 simoom
You'd think in the aftermath of their failure in Citizens United, they'd be being a bit more cautious and sober, but instead it seems like they-- or at least, the ones making the blue-sky musings-- are acting like they're in some think-tank.
| 160 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:45:09am |
The Police should have known that GZ was lying, when the 1st line of his statement read, "It was a dark & stormy night" #shitzimmermansays— Stan Bloodgood (@FiredupinLV) March 29, 2012
| 161 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:55:13am |
re: #156 Obdicut
I don't think that saying Obama is spreading hate is being calm and restrained, though.
What do you think you'd do in Zimmerman's dad's place that was more extreme than that?
I don't think the president said anything wrong either. From Zimmerman's point-of-view his kid is guilty of nothing more than defending himself and he's been labelled a racist murderer who needs to be tossed in prison. The whole family has had to move, people are tweeting their address and death threats are a daily occurrence.
Like I said, he sounds more sad than angry. He shouldn't have lumped the prez in with the rest of the groups but if that's the worst thing he says it's not that bad. Trying to put myself in both parents shoes I can easily see myself spouting off much, much worse.
| 162 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 5:57:08am |
re: #158 Talking Point Detective
What's your basis for saying that about Zimmerman's parents? What have they done that impressed you?
I've only watched the :53 second clip but if that's the worst of it, that's pretty tame.
| 163 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:02:01am |
re: #161 RogueOne
people are tweeting their address
Are you sure? I thought they tweeted the wrong address.
| 164 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:02:13am |
re: #161 RogueOne
What worse thing can you imagine yourself spouting though? I mean, if you'd say something really fucking insane, then saying that Zimmerman wouldn't be as bad as you doesn't seem like that big a deal.
I do think that it's a stressful situation, but the positions of the parents are not comparable. Zimmerman is alive. Trayvon is dead.
| 165 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:05:50am |
re: #157 simoom
You forgot the best part of the Kagan statement:
"Why is a big gift from the federal government a matter of coercion?"
The whole transcript if you have hours and hours to kill:
[Link: www.supremecourt.gov...]
| 166 |
simoom Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:08:55am |
re: #159 Obdicut
For some reason, even with all the recent media coverage, I still think the likely-hood is it will be 6-3 or 5-4 in favor of upholding the mandate and the law, but maybe I'm delusional :P.
I just get the sense that this court is extremely political and hyper-interested in their legacy / place-in-history. Demographics already guarantee big problems for future health-care costs, and their arguments seemed to indicate their awareness of the fact that if they dismantle the ACA, no real reform will likely be in the cards again for a long time. I just got the feeling that they have at least some wariness of being in mind as healthcare costs skyrocket and pundits grope around for a scapegoat, as the ranks of the uninsured swell and everyone remembers the 10's-of-millions that the ACA would have covered, as folks remember some of the preventative care benefits they'd already started to internalize & look forward too...
| 167 |
simoom Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:10:49am |
re: #165 RogueOne
Thanks, I've been listening to the audio, in the background as I work, over the last couple days. I alternate between being somewhat entertained and somewhat disturbed.
| 168 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:11:00am |
re: #166 simoom
Kennedy is like that, and as he is the deciding vote, we may be pleasantly surprised yet. But I'm a pessimist.
| 169 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:11:16am |
re: #166 simoom
Yeah. In a funny way, the obstructionism of the GOP could help the Supreme Court uphold the ACA, since the Supreme Court can't depend on them to craft something less on the edge of constitutionality to fund the parts of it which clearly are constitutional.
| 170 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:18:00am |
re: #166 simoom
For some reason, even with all the recent media coverage, I still think the likely-hood is it will be 6-3 or 5-4 in favor of upholding the mandate and the law, but maybe I'm delusional :P.
...
I don't know about all that....
Verrilli has been so bad that there are some suggesting he's tanking it on purpose. The conspiracy theory is if it falls it's good for the presidents re-election. I think that's really silly for a couple reasons, Number 1 being I don't believe the president really wants to rehash the whole argument right before the election. It didn't play well in '10 and I don't think it will play well in '12.
| 171 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:29:32am |
re: #170 RogueOne
It's very different when they can say "X million people won't have health insurance that have it today unless we fix this." And a lot of those will be people covered under their parents insurance.
| 172 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:35:28am |
I just got an email from a producer that says:
Men are from Mars. That chart is from Uranus.
| 173 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:35:37am |
I liked the medical plan Gov Schwarzenegger proposed. It was a state based tax and benefit plan. I favor state based plans not a national master plan because of the needs of a state like Rhode Island are so different than Texas, California & others. Population, demographics, income all make a substantial difference. Let the states regulate within a framework of minimums and protections.
Schwarzenegger Proposal: ABX1 2
Key Provisions:
The proposal would cover an extimated 4.1 million Californians.
Employes would contribute based on a sliding scale from 0-4% of total payroll based on payroll size.
Californians would have to obtain a minimal level of health insurance, either through their employer or by purchasing it individually. The plan would provide for a $5,000-deductible minimum for each person, with a maximum expense of $10,000 per family.
Low-income Californians would pay for insurance based on their gross annual income in relation to the federal poverty level. 0-150% FPL would pay no premium or out of pocket costs. Families at 151-200% FPL, would pay up to 4% of income for premiums. Families at 201-250% FPL would pay no more than 5% of income. And finally, 250-350% FPL would receive a tax credit if their costs of insurance is more than 5% of the their income.
Partial subsidies to people with incomes up to 3.5 times the federal poverty rate.
All children who live below 300 percent of the federal poverty line would receive insurance under the plan. The state would provide health insurance to all children. Illegal immigrant children would also be included under this part of the plan.
630,000 indigent adults not currently eligible for benefits would receive expanded Medi-Cal coverage.
Hospitals would have to pay a 4% provider tax. This would raise an additional $3.5 billion in money to pay for the plan. 85% of their revenue would have to be spent on services.
Insurance companies would no longer be able to reject individuals because of negative medical histories. 85% of their revenue would have to be spent on services.
Individuals would receive health care discounts for undergoing assessments that determine potential health risks and suggest ways to modify behavior. Those patients would be re-evaluated every two years.
| 174 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:38:43am |
re: #173 Daniel Ballard
Why is the state the ideal level? If it's about demographics, population, etc, as you said, that doesn't work at all. The demographics of New York City aren't similar at all to the demographics of Upstate New York. New York City also has a higher population than the 8 least populous states combined.
So why shouldn't, by your logic, New York at least-- and probably each borough-- have its own health care insurance system?
| 175 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:39:33am |
re: #171 Obdicut
It's very different when they can say "X million people won't have health insurance that have it today unless we fix this." And a lot of those will be people covered under their parents insurance.
America still has too many uninsured. And too many people going broke over health care costs. We do need to fix it, and this is about the best proposal I have seen to date.
| 176 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:41:13am |
re: #159 Obdicut
You'd think in the aftermath of their failure in Citizens United, they'd be being a bit more cautious and sober, but instead it seems like they-- or at least, the ones making the blue-sky musings-- are acting like they're in some think-tank.
I don't know quite how to put it, but it seems to me that the Supreme Court is debating this matter not as an issue of fundamental individual constitutional rights but as a matter of government political philosophy.
In short they (some of them) seem to see themselves as governing, absolutely. The term supreme "council" comes to mind./
| 177 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:42:00am |
re: #174 Obdicut
Why is the state the ideal level? If it's about demographics, population, etc, as you said, that doesn't work at all. The demographics of New York City aren't similar at all to the demographics of Upstate New York. New York City also has a higher population than the 8 least populous states combined.
So why shouldn't, by your logic, New York at least-- and probably each borough-- have its own health care insurance system?
I think you just helped my point. Let NY write and run a good plan for NY.
I have a basic disagreement with you I think. I prefer state based regulations rather than DC based. For reasons we have discussed before. I doubt the ability of more distant authorities to deal with the diversity of circumstances as well as the states.
| 178 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:43:19am |
re: #176 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang
Yeah, there is a spot of that when they talk assert things about how the law would change the relationship between the government and the people. It's tricky- in some ways, they do rule, but so could every branch if they just dialed up their available powers to 11.
| 179 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:44:10am |
re: #177 Daniel Ballard
I think you just helped my point. Let NY write and run a good plan for NY.
No, that wasn't your point. your point was that it should be decided at state level. New York City can't write and run its own plan and simultaneously participate in the state plan. So what is your actual proposal?
| 180 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:46:29am |
re: #171 Obdicut
True, it's hard to say how it will play. I don't think those people are going to swing the polls into his favor. IIRC the last CNN poll was still roughly 60/40 against.
Looking at it strictly through a political lens I think they would have been better off if they had managed to get the case delayed until next year...maybe. If it gets tossed it helps gin up the D base a bit, if it passes it gins up the other base a bit.
OTOH, if it fails it takes away the "repeal" line of attack from the repubs and if it passes it takes away the "obstructionist USSC" line away from the Dems.
OTOOH, If it fails it takes away a major accomplishment by the president and if it stands it takes the constitutionality question of the presidents plan out of the equation.
OTOOOH, maybe I'm not so sure if it's a bad thing or a good thing, politically, for either party if it passes or fails.
| 181 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:46:54am |
re: #177 Daniel Ballard
I think you just helped my point. Let NY write and run a good plan for NY.
I have a basic disagreement with you I think. I prefer state based regulations rather than DC based. For reasons we have discussed before. I doubt the ability of more distant authorities to deal with the diversity of circumstances as well as the states.
I think state plans would produce a few good plans, a bunch of mediocre plans, a bunch of sucky plans, and a few states that would never enact any plan at all. Plus a constant barrage of state level laws aimed at using these plans for moral engineering in order to carve out religious-based exemptions that would make things much like the current crapfest, but more so.
| 182 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:47:14am |
re: #174 Obdicut
Why is the state the ideal level? If it's about demographics, population, etc, as you said, that doesn't work at all. The demographics of New York City aren't similar at all to the demographics of Upstate New York. New York City also has a higher population than the 8 least populous states combined.
So why shouldn't, by your logic, New York at least-- and probably each borough-- have its own health care insurance system?
Yes, and state demographics change over time. So with this approach one needs to expect a repeat of the same debate every decade or so, to tailor for new circumstances.
Hell, why not let every neighborhood association have it's own plan and self insure, if there is no validity to the argument that size matters./
| 183 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:50:00am |
re: #179 Obdicut
No, that wasn't your point. your point was that it should be decided at state level. New York City can't write and run its own plan and simultaneously participate in the state plan. So what is your actual proposal?
When I typed in NY, I was referring to NY state. I prefer states to have more say withing their borders than what DC will allow in this instance. Romney care worked well, no?
| 184 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:51:43am |
re: #183 Daniel Ballard
When I typed in NY, I was referring to NY state. I prefer states to have more say withing their borders than what DC will allow in this instance. Romney care worked well, no?
Not according to Mitt Romney right now...
/
| 186 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:53:56am |
Read the FBI Memo: Agents Can ‘Suspend the Law’
[Link: www.wired.com...]
The FBI once taught its agents that they can “bend or suspend the law” as they wiretap suspects. But the bureau says it didn’t really mean it, and has now removed the document from its counterterrorism training curriculum, calling it an “imprecise” instruction. Which is a good thing, national security attorneys say, because the FBI’s contention that it can twist the law in pursuit of suspected terrorists is just wrong.
“Dismissing this statement as ‘imprecise’ is a rather unsatisfying response given the very precise lines Congress and the courts have repeatedly drawn between what is and is not permissible, even in counterterrorism cases, over the past decade,” Steve Vladeck, a national-security law professor at American University, says. “It might technically be true that the FBI has certain authorities when conducting counterterrorism investigations that the Constitution otherwise forbids, but that’s good only so far as it goes.”
The reference to law-bending was noted in a letter to FBI Director Robert Mueller from Sen. Richard Durbin that Danger Room obtained. When Danger Room asked for the original document, the FBI initially declined. On Wednesday, a Bureau spokesperson relented, but refused to say who prepared the document; how long it was in circulation; and how many FBI agents, analysts and officials received its instruction.
Is anyone really surprised the FBI thinks they're allowed to bypass the rules if they're doing it for the right reasons?
| 187 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:54:07am |
re: #183 Daniel Ballard
When I typed in NY, I was referring to NY state. I prefer states to have more say withing their borders than what DC will allow in this instance. Romney care worked well, no?
Okay, so you just didn't answer my question? What is it about a 'state' that makes it the right level for the plan? Why couldn't someone make the exact same argument you just did that New York City should have its own plan? That cities in general should have different plans than people in the country should? Why is the state the level of division. All you did was restate that you think it should be-- but why? What is similar between New York State and Montana?
The truth is that what we're trying to do is insure the entire country. We're not trying to have uninsured people walking around, because their expenses are borne by others anyway. So the true risk pool should be the entire country. Subdividing the pool weakens it. That's one of the biggest reasons single-payer is the best solution.
| 189 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:57:31am |
I hate only being able to be here on a limited basis because I wanted to call Spike Lee a douche. Oh, wait, I still can. Douche.
Morning Honcos.
| 190 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 6:59:22am |
Semi-related to the Wire story:
Black Flag has a new album! "General Strike"
Anti-Flag’s General Strike Is a Soundtrack for Occupied America
[Link: www.wired.com...]
| 192 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:00:44am |
| 193 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:01:13am |
re: #186 RogueOne
Read the FBI Memo: Agents Can ‘Suspend the Law’
[Link: www.wired.com...]Is anyone really surprised the FBI thinks they're allowed to bypass the rules if they're doing it for the right reasons?
I don't think they really intended to suggest this, it was a bit of idiotic language, but the specific examples were *within* the law (FISA etc.). Of course, the language itself matters too, since it gives the wrong ideas.
| 196 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:05:40am |
| 197 |
lawhawk Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:06:17am |
Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I can't believe that the video released last night shows that the initial statements by GZ and the Sanford PD about Zimmerman's condition were contradicted by the video evidence.
It would appear that there was no struggle, and there wasn't any sign that Zimmerman was injured. If he was injured, he sure cleaned up well prior to going into interrogation (or arrival at the Sanford PD intake).
That directly contradicts everything that Zimmerman was saying, and also supports the Sanford PD investigator who thought that charges should be filed, but overruled by prosecutors. One has to wonder whether prosecutors had the video evidence when they made the decision not to arrest/press charges.
Also, does anyone know whether an autopsy was performed on Martin to discern whether there were defensive wounds or other forensic evidence of a struggle before he was shot. Having the funeral director's statements helps in this regard, but an autopsy would have involved a more complete examination.
So much about this case reeks. And Zimmerman's father is complaining about the President's statement being hateful, even though it had nothing to do with Zimmerman at all - but rather that if the President had a son, he would look like Martin. [deleted]
| 198 |
darthstar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:06:31am |
| 199 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:06:41am |
re: #196 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
ftfy
What r u some kind of univserity gradumate elitist librul or sumtin?
| 200 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:07:46am |
re: #183 Daniel Ballard
When I typed in NY, I was referring to NY state. I prefer states to have more say withing their borders than what DC will allow in this instance. Romney care worked well, no?
As I understand it, one oft' heard rightwing argument is that more localized power give people more control over their lives. There's a certain logic to that, but there are a couple of problems.
If, in effect, people have fewer and more expensive options available as the result of increased localization, in the end they will have less control.
Also, as obdicut points out, there are logistical implications to increasing localization that make localization unrealistic at some level. On what basis do you account for that problem in saying you'd prefer a more localized approach, and why do you think that state level balances that issue optimally?
| 201 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:07:56am |
re: #199 Freedom Pantload (fka God's Patriot Dude)
What r u some kind of univserity gradumate elitist librul or sumtin?
No, dear sir, I'm a redneck like you.
//
| 202 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:08:19am |
re: #199 Freedom Pantload (fka God's Patriot Dude)
What r u some kind of univserity gradumate elitist librul or sumtin?
fereigners talk funny.
| 203 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:08:24am |
re: #201 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
No, dear sir, I'm a redneck like you.
//
Skoal?
//
| 204 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:08:51am |
| 206 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:11:17am |
re: #200 Talking Point Detective
As I understand it, one oft' heard rightwing argument is that more localized power give people more control over their lives. There's a certain logic to that, but there are a couple of problems.
If, in effect, people have fewer and more expensive options available as the result of increased localization, in the end they will have less control.
Also, as obdicut points out, there are logistical implications to increasing localization that make localization unrealistic at some level. On what basis do you account for that problem in saying you'd prefer a more localized approach, and why do you think that state level balances that issue optimally?
I want to see the localized health plan for that township in Tenn. that keeps having issues with residents not paying the local fire coverage fee and then having their houses burn down.
/
| 207 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:13:17am |
re: #193 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
I'll agree but the story does point out....
Some surveillance experts were confused by that explanation. Surveillance under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act or so-called “Title-3″ law-enforcement surveillance requires the approval of judges. National Security Letters — administrative subpoenas for records issued by FBI officials, not judges — are troubling to civil libertarians, as the practice is rife for abuse, but the issuance of the letters themselves is legal. In other words, there shouldn’t be any suspension of the law.
and links to this Schneier story:
[Link: www.schneier.com...]
Telling agents it's occasionally ok to stretch the law a bit isn't helpful especially since we were told during the patriot act arguments that it would be used to investigate possible terrorism, which turns out not to be true.
| 208 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:13:50am |
re: #197 lawhawk
If GZ is guilty then he should go to jail. But people think the law is a bad one, but it isn't. If I'm out for a walk and someone pulls a knife trying to rob me should I have to try to run away? That was the previous law. Florida isn't the wild west despite what the idiot anti-gun nuts want people to believe. Murder is murder and we have laws for that. And Stand Your Ground doesn't mean you can pursue someone. But that doesn't fit the anti-gun meme.
| 209 |
Achilles Tang Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:17:30am |
re: #187 Obdicut
Okay, so you just didn't answer my question? What is it about a 'state' that makes it the right level for the plan? Why couldn't someone make the exact same argument you just did that New York City should have its own plan? That cities in general should have different plans than people in the country should? Why is the state the level of division. All you did was restate that you think it should be-- but why? What is similar between New York State and Montana?
It is also kind of ridiculous that someone who lives on the border of such an artificial delineation of health care should find themselves deciding if they need to move, perhaps one block in some cases, within their own country to qualify for a system that is better, or smarter, than the one where they happen to live.
| 210 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:18:02am |
re: #208 Cannadian Club Akbar
That's not all the law says, though, and you're making a caraciture of the duty to retreat bit.
This law also throws obstacles into the way of the cops in investigating a shooting; if they can't immediately give probable reason that they think think it wasn't self-defense, they can't even detain the shooter, let alone question him or collect evidence from him.
In addition, the bill authorizes the use of lethal force in response to a 'reasonable' belief that someone is trying to kill or severely injure you or someone else. It doesn't have any provision for using a less-lethal method if available.
Finally, if you really do have an opportunity to retreat, you should always take it. Confrontations are inherently risky.
| 211 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:18:05am |
re: #197 lawhawk
Greets and saluts from the NYC metro area. I can't believe that the video released last night shows that the initial statements by GZ and the Sanford PD about Zimmerman's condition were contradicted by the video evidence.
It would appear that there was no struggle, and there wasn't any sign that Zimmerman was injured. If he was injured, he sure cleaned up well prior to going into interrogation (or arrival at the Sanford PD intake).
That directly contradicts everything that Zimmerman was saying, and also supports the Sanford PD investigator who thought that charges should be filed, but overruled by prosecutors. One has to wonder whether prosecutors had the video evidence when they made the decision not to arrest/press charges.
Also, does anyone know whether an autopsy was performed on Martin to discern whether there were defensive wounds or other forensic evidence of a struggle before he was shot. Having the funeral director's statements helps in this regard, but an autopsy would have involved a more complete examination.
So much about this case reeks. And Zimmerman's father is complaining about the President's statement being hateful, even though it had nothing to do with Zimmerman at all - but rather that if the President had a son, he would look like Martin. [deleted]
One report last night stated the funeral director could not get a clear picture of the wound because an autopsy had been performed.
| 212 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:18:46am |
re: #208 Cannadian Club Akbar
If GZ is guilty then he should go to jail. But people think the law is a bad one, but it isn't. If I'm out for a walk and someone pulls a knife trying to rob me should I have to try to run away? That was the previous law. Florida isn't the wild west despite what the idiot anti-gun nuts want people to believe. Murder is murder and we have laws for that. And Stand Your Ground doesn't mean you can pursue someone. But that doesn't fit the anti-gun meme.
SYG has consequences. One of the consequences is that people can basically commit murder and then walk because of a bogus claim of self-defense.
That is the reason that law enforcement was largely arrayed against this law.
Please provide some evidence to support your statement that SYG "doesn't mean you can pursue someone." I think that if you research it you won't be able to do so.
| 213 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:19:16am |
re: #209 Blue Spot Vlamingii Tang
There's a lot of myth-making about states, but they're just arbitrary designations with long legal histories. However, they've entrenched themselves in the system of both political power-- since even if it would make sense for states to combine, it'd mean they lost senators so they'd never do it-- and in terms of the national consciousness.
| 214 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:19:27am |
re: #208 Cannadian Club Akbar
[...] people think the law is a bad one, but it isn't. If I'm out for a walk and someone pulls a knife trying to rob me should I have to try to run away?[...]
I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty details but yes, I think you should try to run away. I think the process should go:
- Is my life in danger? Yes/No
- If yes, can I get out of danger by retreating/running away? Yes/No
- If No, I can defend myself.
I think that's a perfectly reasonable sequence which will tend to minimize harm to everyone involved. The only problem I can see with the second stage is with people who think it's "unmanly" or some other bullshit.
Only stupid people stand and fight when they can retreat without penalty.
| 215 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:20:32am |
re: #210 Obdicut
The law is written and there is a line that says you cannot pursue a person. GZ is going to jail.
| 216 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:21:33am |
re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar
The law is written and there is a line that says you cannot pursue a person. GZ is going to jail.
Where is that line, please?
| 217 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:22:11am |
re: #206 Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste
I want to see the localized health plan for that township in Tenn. that keeps having issues with residents not paying the local fire coverage fee and then having their houses burn down.
/
I'd have to wonder, also, if Medicare or other federal safety net programs should be localized, and how far. It's a slippery slope argument. Taken to its extreme, it means no centralized government at all.
| 218 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:23:19am |
re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar
The law is written and there is a line that says you cannot pursue a person. GZ is going to jail.
Just yesterday there was a SYG-based court decision that acquitted some guy of any charges. He pursued a thief and killed him in an apparent confrontation. So no, the law doesn't prohibit pursuit. Moreover, the guy lied several times (about the thief having a screwdriver etc.), his lies were exposed, yet his final explanation was still believed (an alleged swing with a bag full of radios a "deadly threat"). Good law, uh-huh.
| 219 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:23:24am |
re: #211 Decatur Deb
I don't know how much we can tell from the video or a funeral director. It looks to me like he's got blood on the back of his head but it could be a birthmark for all I know. I would expect that there are pictures somewhere ("twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on
the back of each one") but that would be under the assumption that the local PD was partly competent.....an assumption I'm usually unwilling to give.
| 220 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:23:43am |
re: #214 iossarian
I don't want to get into the nitty-gritty details but yes, I think you should try to run away. I think the process should go:
- Is my life in danger? Yes/No
- If yes, can I get out of danger by retreating/running away? Yes/No
- If No, I can defend myself.I think that's a perfectly reasonable sequence which will tend to minimize harm to everyone involved. The only problem I can see with the second stage is with people who think it's "unmanly" or some other bullshit.
Only stupid people stand and fight when they can retreat without penalty.
What you are describing is the standard previously in place. Deadly force as a last resort - contingent on a "reasonable" attempt to retreat.
There is room for error in that assessment of "reasonable," as Rogue likes to point out. However, I'd say that there is much greater room for error w/r/t assessing a "reasonable" claim of self-defense.
| 221 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:24:41am |
re: #217 Talking Point Detective
There's also no reason why a national plan can't be written with provisions for various states, localities, or other groups. In fact, it has better ability to do that-- if it does make any sense to bundle people together in groups for different health insurance plans, then profession would probably make more sense than locality. Physical-trades workers have very different health care needs than does a dude at an office bench.
| 222 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:25:20am |
re: #216 Obdicut
Where is that line, please?
Here is a quote from the guy who signed the law.
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
Read more at [Link: www.inquisitr.com...]
I don't have my glasses and am having a hard time reading. Look it up yourselves.
| 223 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:25:23am |
re: #218 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Taking out the actual stabbing in that case...it was a chase that only lasted a block and the guy had just stolen a stereo. You're well within your rights to stop someone from stealing your stuff and asking for it back.
| 224 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:25:45am |
Robert Spencer gets a little feature at Think Progress:
Robert Spencer, who isn't at all an Islamophobe, suggests that a top Muslim CIA official is a traitor t.co/p8GvWNHd via @Ali_Gharib— AdamSerwer (@AdamSerwer) March 29, 2012
It's going to be "one of those days" for him.
| 225 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:26:03am |
re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar
There is no such line. The guy is wrong.
| 226 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:26:09am |
re: #219 RogueOne
I don't know how much we can tell from the video or a funeral director. It looks to me like he's got blood on the back of his head but it could be a birthmark for all I know. I would expect that there are pictures somewhere ("twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on
the back of each one") but that would be under the assumption that the local PD was partly competent...an assumption I'm usually unwilling to give.
I'm perfectly willing to let a newly-enthused legal system play this out. I doubt they'll sluff it off, and hope they don't err in the other direction. Only Nancy Grace knows for sure.
| 227 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:26:13am |
re: #221 Obdicut
There's also no reason why a national plan can't be written with provisions for various states, localities, or other groups. In fact, it has better ability to do that-- if it does make any sense to bundle people together in groups for different health insurance plans, then profession would probably make more sense than locality. Physical-trades workers have very different health care needs than does a dude at an office bench.
Good points. Maybe Daniel will address them?
| 228 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:26:37am |
| 229 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:26:57am |
re: #220 Talking Point Detective
What you are describing is the standard previously in place. Deadly force as a last resort - contingent on a "reasonable" attempt to retreat.
Yes, and the reason that was the standard previously is because back in the day we didn't have fanatics writing laws and pushing them through via saucer-eyed halfwits in state and national legislatures. "Golly gee, if y'all just let real men take care of business, everything will be just dandy!"
There is room for error in that assessment of "reasonable," as Rogue likes to point out. However, I'd say that there is much greater room for error w/r/t assessing a "reasonable" claim of self-defense.
Exactly.
| 230 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:27:01am |
re: #208 Cannadian Club Akbar
Stand Your Ground doesn't mean you can pursue someone. But that doesn't fit the anti-gun meme.
According to the wording and interpretation of the law it does: as long as you are someplace where you have the right to be.
| 231 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:27:31am |
re: #221 Obdicut
There's also no reason why a national plan can't be written with provisions for various states, localities, or other groups. In fact, it has better ability to do that-- if it does make any sense to bundle people together in groups for different health insurance plans, then profession would probably make more sense than locality. Physical-trades workers have very different health care needs than does a dude at an office bench.
Let's see, do I want cancer in California or in Alabama?
| 232 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:28:33am |
re: #223 RogueOne
Taking out the actual stabbing in that case...it was a chase that only lasted a block and the guy had just stolen a stereo. You're well within your rights to stop someone from stealing your stuff and asking for it back.
So you can be judge, jury and executioner if someone snatches your wallet?
| 233 |
Sionainn Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:29:24am |
re: #219 RogueOne
I don't know how much we can tell from the video or a funeral director. It looks to me like he's got blood on the back of his head but it could be a birthmark for all I know. I would expect that there are pictures somewhere ("twenty seven eight-by-ten color glossy pictures with the circles and arrows and the paragraph on
the back of each one") but that would be under the assumption that the local PD was partly competent...an assumption I'm usually unwilling to give.
Upding for the Alice's Restaurant reference.
| 234 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:29:25am |
re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar
Here is a quote from the guy who signed the law.
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
See above: "saucer-eyed halfwits".
| 235 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:29:26am |
re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar
I have looked it up, and there is no line in there. He signed the law, but the law was crafted by ALEC and the NRA. There is no real reason to believe he understands the law well. This is one reason I think model legislation sucks, except for very technical subjects.
The language of the law grants the right to stand and respond to an attack if you are somewhere you have the right to be and are not committing a crime. Unless you say the pursuit was criminal, then this doesn't apply. The only other section in the law is that you're not covered if you 'provoke' the fight-- and if you think pursuit of someone provokes them, that's a bad precedent to set in many ways, and would be very harmful to legitimate self-defense claims. Even then, the section with provoke then re-allows the use of deadly force if the attacker continues the attack when the provoker stops fighting, basically.
| 236 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:29:56am |
re: #228 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
You shouldn't.
You have to. Up until the point of the stabbing the defendant hadn't done anything illegal. You're allowed to try to stop a guy from stealing your stuff. The SYG defense comes in after the contact. The defense was he thought the other guy was going to stab him and, since he doesn't have to retreat, he stabbed him first.
| 237 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:30:25am |
re: #231 Decatur Deb
Let's see, do I want cancer in California or in Alabama?
Depends on what kind of cancer you want
| 238 |
I Am Kreniigh! Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:30:25am |
It's like Bohemian Rhapsody, minus the guilt feelings and consequences.
| 239 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:30:28am |
re: #222 Cannadian Club Akbar
Here is a quote from the guy who signed the law.
“This law does not apply to this particular circumstance… Stand your ground means stand your ground. It doesn’t mean chase after somebody who’s turned their back.”
Read more at [Link: www.inquisitr.com...]I don't have my glasses and am having a hard time reading. Look it up yourselves.
You can find him interviewed here:
javascript:NPR.Player.openPlayer(149404276,%20149404273,%20null,%20NPR.Player.Action.PLAY_NOW,%20NPR.Player.Type.STORY,%20'0')
However, what he says does not seem to be supported by the actual law. You have to recognize that this is a politician, who is defending a law that he sponsored that is under attack. He has a political motivation - it is undeniable.
And in point of fact, we have on record the police saying that Zimmerman was released because of SYG. This is the problem with the law, in that there is room for that kind of development. If Martin's family hadn't raised a stink, in point of fact, SYG would have led to Zimmerman walking. In fact, it may still do so.
| 240 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:31:24am |
re: #236 RogueOne
You have to. Up until the point of the stabbing the defendant hadn't done anything illegal. You're allowed to try to stop a guy from stealing your stuff. The SYG defense comes in after the contact. The defense was he thought the other guy was going to stab him and, since he doesn't have to retreat, he stabbed him first.
He thought the other guy was going to stab him with a bag full of radios?
| 241 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:31:43am |
Taking wife to the dentist. (For the record, gold-plated federal retiree dental plans suck.) BBL
| 242 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:31:47am |
re: #236 RogueOne
You have to. Up until the point of the stabbing the defendant hadn't done anything illegal. You're allowed to try to stop a guy from stealing your stuff. The SYG defense comes in after the contact. The defense was he thought the other guy was going to stab him and, since he doesn't have to retreat, he stabbed him first.
Thank you for demonstrating why the law is bad.
| 243 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:32:50am |
| 244 |
McSpiff Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:33:58am |
About the whole state vs federal health care system...
The Canadian model is based on federal funding, with federal minimum guidelines but provincial administration. So essentially a hybrid model. the federal guidelines are pretty low end too, things like a provincial healthcare insurance corporation (Crown corp) must cover things like x-rays.
I'm sure a similar level of state control could be put in place in the US as well.
| 245 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:38:43am |
re: #239 Talking Point Detective
I was trying to find an interview done by one of the guys that wrote the law, but I'm at the lieberry and things are slow here. Point being, you can't pursue someone but you can cap them if you fear for your life. And if there are 2 stories but only one person can tell it, you need to investigate. GZ is going to prison. Trust me.
| 246 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:39:07am |
How would SYG apply in the following scenario:
I'm walking home at night, minding my own business. I notice a guy across the street, he seems to be following me. I walk faster, he walks faster. I look round, his jacket swings open - shit - he has a gun.
I run. He runs after me. I trip and fall. He's caught up to me. I jump to my feet, throw my hands up to show I'm not holding anything.
He shoots me. I'm dead. In court, he says he thought I was going for a gun of my own.
?
| 247 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:39:22am |
re: #245 Cannadian Club Akbar
I'm sorry, but you're wrong in what you're saying about the law, as I said above.
| 248 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:40:43am |
The Stand Your Ground Law has similar legal underpinnings to the Fugitive Slave Act. An NYT online Op-Ed. t.co/CtqoRECs— Andrew Rosenthal (@andyrNYT) March 29, 2012
| 249 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:42:16am |
re: #232 iossarian
So you can be judge, jury and executioner if someone snatches your wallet?
That wasn't the question. The thief was caught in the act. The judge decided Garcia (the defendant) "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property." It turned into a SYG defense after the contact.
| 250 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:42:18am |
re: #246 iossarian
What do you mean 'in court'? The law would prevent the cops from arresting him unless they can reasonably show that it wasn't self-defense. It would all come down to whether his fear that you were going for a gun is considered 'reasonable' or not.
| 251 |
darthstar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:42:25am |
re: #246 iossarian
How would SYG apply in the following scenario:
I'm walking home at night, minding my own business. I notice a guy across the street, he seems to be following me. I walk faster, he walks faster. I look round, his jacket swings open - shit - he has a gun.
I run. He runs after me. I trip and fall. He's caught up to me. I jump to my feet, throw my hands up to show I'm not holding anything.
He shoots me. I'm dead. In court, he says he thought I was going for a gun of my own.
?
Skittles kill people.
| 252 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:42:38am |
re: #245 Cannadian Club Akbar
The author's opinion is not necessarily correct. Don't assume he's a competent lawmaker. His opinion is interesting, but that's that. It's not definitive.
Also, we've been mulling over these issues here for some time, including discussions of this interview.
| 253 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:43:45am |
re: #252 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The author's opinion is not necessarily correct. Don't assume he's a competent lawmaker. His opinion is interesting, but that's that. It's not definitive.
Also, we've been mulling over these issues here for some time, including discussions of this interview.
Oxymoron. Heh.
| 254 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:43:58am |
re: #249 RogueOne
That wasn't the question. The thief was caught in the act. The judge decided Garcia (the defendant) "was well within his rights to pursue the victim and demand the return of his property." It turned into a SYG defense after the contact.
So if someone snatches my wallet, I can pursue him, and if I corner him away from any witnesses I can shoot/stab him and then claim self-defense.
| 255 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:44:38am |
re: #253 Cannadian Club Akbar
Oxymoron. Heh.
Speak for your own side. Some of us vote for people who seem bright and thoughtful, as opposed to whoever hates gays the most.
| 256 |
celticdragon Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:45:42am |
re: #35 Targetpractice
Paramedics supposedly looked him over and patched him up, according to the police report.
Without any documentation or pictures of his injuries? That can also be construed as destruction of evidence.
| 257 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:46:21am |
re: #255 iossarian
Speak for your own side. Some of us vote for people who seem bright and thoughtful, as opposed to whoever hates gays the most.
Vote for me!! I hate gays more!! Unless you like gays. Then I like them more!!
/typical politician. Save the BS for someone else.
| 258 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:47:02am |
re: #257 Cannadian Club Akbar
Vote for me!! I hate gays more!! Unless you like gays. Then I like them more!!
/typical politician. Save the BS for someone else.
Touched a nerve, I see.
| 259 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:50:10am |
re: #256 celticdragon
Without any documentation or pictures of his injuries? That can also be construed as destruction of evidence.
This is one of the key flawa in SYG: under most curcumstances, every killing must be treated as a potential homicide until an investigation concludes otherwise.
Lawmakers wanted to remove that "burden" by making people exempt from prosecution, arrest or even civil damages if they act in self-defense anywhere, not just in their own homes.
| 260 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:50:13am |
re: #242 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Thank you for demonstrating why the law is bad.
What if the outcome had been different? What if Garcia had turned to run and ended up stabbed? Victims should not have a duty to retreat.
I would think the process worked in this case. The cops disagreed that Garcia acted reasonably. The Prosecutor agreed with the police and filed charges and a judge (after watching a video!) decided.
| 261 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:50:49am |
re: #258 iossarian
Touched a nerve, I see.
I see you found my long list of comments on hating gays.
/
| 262 |
simoom Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:52:15am |
It's interesting how, in every retelling of the shooting by Zimmerman surrogates, that Trayvon Martin gets some new cartoon villain bit of dialogue, and the narrative adjusts to present more and more of an unassailable threat on Zimmerman's life.
From Fox's write-up on the interview:
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
"Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him," Robert Zimmerman claims. "In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete."
"After nearly a minute of being beaten, George was trying to get his head off the concrete, trying to move with Trayvon on him, in the grass. In doing so, his firearm was shown. Trayvon Martin said something to the effect of, 'You're going to die now,' or 'You're going to die tonight' or something to that effect," Robert Zimmerman said.
Robert Zimmerman said Martin continued to beat his son, and George Zimmerman at some point pulled out his gun and "did what he did."
You'd think maybe the whole minute-of-sustained-face-beating & concrete-curb-head-smashing would be toned down a bit in light of the arrest video...
| 263 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:52:43am |
re: #251 darthstar
Skittles kill people.
So does stealing stereos. They should restart those "the more you know!" PSA's.
| 264 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:53:34am |
re: #260 RogueOne
What if the outcome had been different? What if Garcia had turned to run and ended up stabbed?
Then the criminal should have gone to prison. But it was this guy who put himself in a risky position.
| 265 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:54:00am |
re: #260 RogueOne
What if the outcome had been different? What if Garcia had turned to run and ended up stabbed? Victims should not have a duty to retreat.
Ine problem is there are lots of circumstances where there is no actual victim. If you stab someone because you felt they were about to attack, they never actually did.
Do you care to answer my question from yesterday, since this brings it up? If one person, responding to a threat made by someone else-- a guy with a knife visible saying "I'm going to stab you"-- takes out her gun and shoots the guy threatening, but one of the bullet clips a passerby, does that passerby not have the right to then shoot the woman who just shot him?
| 266 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:54:33am |
re: #262 simoom
Daddy lies like crazee.
| 267 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:55:26am |
re: #245 Cannadian Club Akbar
I was trying to find an interview done by one of the guys that wrote the law, but I'm at the lieberry and things are slow here. Point being, you can't pursue someone but you can cap them if you fear for your life. And if there are 2 stories but only one person can tell it, you need to investigate. GZ is going to prison. Trust me.
If you get the chance, listen to the interview I linked, and then read obdicut's comment. You will see that obdicut's description is far more consistent with the law than Baxley - who co-sponsored it. You would also read Timoney's editorial in the NYT.
I have investigated it to some degree - and what I've found contradicts what you're saying.
Zimmerman was initially released, specifically, on the basis of a SYG defense (perhaps used to cover racist or other motivations). That is a simple fact, and if a stink hadn't been raised, it would be true going forward. It only stands to reason that the Martin case is not entirely unique. Law enforcement officials predicted that exactly this type of situation would result from SYG.
He may go to jail, but it will be in spite of SYG.
If you don't follow up with more research, then we'll just be repeating ourselves. If you have any evidence of your characterization of the law, I'd love to see it.
| 268 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:55:31am |
re: #261 Cannadian Club Akbar
I see you found my long list of comments on hating gays.
/
If you vote Republican, you are, in general, voting for someone who has got through the primary system essentially by playing up their social conservative credentials. Obviously this is a generalization and there will be exceptions, but in the main it is true. You only have to look at the current presidential primary to see this.
Democratic primaries have their flaws but in contemporary terms there just isn't the same culture war focus. Every now and then Democratic politicians might play up their specific demonstration of tolerance but in primary terms it usually isn't that big a deal - it mostly comes down to name recognition and policy.
I've met both Democratic and Republican politicians at various levels and believe me, the ding-dongs who can't tell a tariff from a rebate but know that marriage is between a man and a woman goshdarnit are solidly on the R side.
| 269 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:55:47am |
re: #266 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Daddy lies like crazee.
Daddy is pulling a "Pappy Van Der Sloot".
BBL Fur Reel.
| 270 |
simoom Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:56:38am |
re: #266 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Daddy lies like crazee.
It could just be the current iteration of his account that Zimmerman is telling his family & friends. Perhaps it gives some insight into how he'll present the encounter if this ever goes to court.
| 271 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:57:13am |
re: #265 Obdicut
Ine problem is there are lots of circumstances where there is no actual victim. If you stab someone because you felt they were about to attack, they never actually did.
Do you care to answer my question from yesterday, since this brings it up? If one person, responding to a threat made by someone else-- a guy with a knife visible saying "I'm going to stab you"-- takes out her gun and shoots the guy threatening, but one of the bullet clips a passerby, does that passerby not have the right to then shoot the woman who just shot him?
If you don't know how to control your weapon, don't have one. How would you clip someone (innocent passerby) if you shoot someone (criminal) in the middle of the chest?
| 272 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:58:26am |
re: #270 simoom
Taken together with his Obama comment, I think Zimmerman Sr. is full of it all by himself. Also, he couldn't have but noticed the lack of traces of this beating the face on concrete for a whole minute.
| 273 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 7:59:08am |
re: #271 Cannadian Club Akbar
If you don't know how to control your weapon, don't have one. How would you clip someone (innocent passerby) if you shoot someone (criminal) in the middle of the chest?
People, under stressful circumstances, can miss a target easily. If we're only going to issue carry licenses to people that can prove they can shoot a three-inch group under combat conditions while hastily drawing their weapon, that'd be applicable, but the circumstance of a passerby getting hit isn't unreasonable. It happens.
| 274 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:00:15am |
re: #265 Obdicut
Probably yes, but is the answer to ask victims to accept getting stabbed? If a person believes their lives are on the line the decision whether or not to flee or fight should remain with them, no one else.
I think the "reasonable" standard is the acceptable way to go. It still leaves it up to the victim to make the decision in the heat of the moment but still allows for the prosecution/judges to make the final decision on whether they reasonably thought their lives were in danger.
| 275 |
Decatur Deb Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:01:07am |
re: #273 Obdicut
People, under stressful circumstances, can miss a target easily. If we're only going to issue carry licenses to people that can prove they can shoot a three-inch group under combat conditions while hastily drawing their weapon, that'd be applicable, but the circumstance of a passerby getting hit isn't unreasonable. It happens.
Spray and Pray. Florida has made itself a free-fire zone.
Reall, really BBL.
| 276 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:01:44am |
re: #273 Obdicut
I agree. How many times have we heard about the cops shooting 20 (or whatever) times but only hitting the perp twice? I think I am thinking more of closer circumstances.
| 277 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:02:38am |
THAT'S IT!! I'M CAPPING ALL YOU MOTHER FUCKERS!!!!
////
| 278 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:03:21am |
| 279 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:04:11am |
re: #274 RogueOne
Probably yes, but is the answer to ask victims to accept getting stabbed?
Why only probably? And so, would you agree that if that person in the first example had a chance to escape rather than shoot, they should have taken it? Or that they could have used to the gun to deter rather than instantly shoot?
is the answer to ask victims to accept getting stabbed?
No. Why ask something like that? For fuck's sake.
I think the "reasonable" standard is the acceptable way to go.
So why don't you like the 'reasonable' standard for 'reasonably tried escape'? Why the trust in prosecutors for one circumstance and not the other?
| 280 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:06:17am |
re: #187 Obdicut
We should agree to disagree on this -I have more faith in my state government than I do my representatives in DC. My state is often ahead of the federal government in important policy ways.
That having been said.
So California was right to decline the opportunity, and Massachusetts was wrong to have a state based system?
| 281 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:07:37am |
“The ‘Stand Your Ground’ law was not designed to protect an aggressor who starts losing a fight,” Abrams explained. “That’s not what this law is for. And that would not, I do not think, protect Zimmerman in this case. Meaning, if the facts were that Zimmerman goes after him, they get into an altercation, and let’s say that Trayvon Martin starts winning the fight, Zimmerman pulls out his gun because he’s getting scared, that’s not going to protect Zimmerman. On the other hand, what Zimmerman is claiming is, he approaches him, turns his back, Trayvon Martin attacks him. That would be a different scenario.”
[Link: www.mediaite.com...]
This is from GMA. But like I said, GZ is going to jail. And I'm just glad Reverend Al is out of my state.:)
| 283 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:08:43am |
You wanna know what law we need? There is a woman who is sitting about 15 feet from me and I'm choking on her perfume. GAK!!!
| 284 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:09:25am |
| 285 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:09:49am |
I wokes up late this mornin'. The misses also forgot to shakes me from mys sleep. Now I are late for work. It's Barrack Obama's fault.
| 287 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:10:56am |
re: #280 Daniel Ballard
We should agree to disagree on this
Why can't you just answer the question? It's a really, really important one for someone championing state-level rights. It won't go away-- I'll just re-ask it the next time a states issue comes up. What is it about the state that makes it the ideal level, and how can that possibly be, as you say, based on demographics, population, etc when the population of New York City is bigger than that of eight other states combined? If more local control is desirable, how is a Californian systems covering 36 million people be the same level of control as a system covering 400,000 people?
You're not dealing with the central aspect of your proposal-- why the power should be at the state level.
So California was right to decline the opportunity, and Massachusetts was wrong to have a state based system?
No clue what you're asking here. We don't have a national system. In its absence, the highest possible level, the state, was enacted in Massachussets. That's good, but it would be better if it were a national program.
What you need to account for is the vast disconnect between your argument about demographics and the level of the state, which is not a demographic demarcation.
| 288 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:12:09am |
re: #281 Cannadian Club Akbar
Who cares how many times he says it? That's not what the language of the law says. Unless you can show something from the law, not from someone talking about it, it's not going to convince someone who's read the law and sees that it says that the law applies anywhere you have a right to be.
| 289 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:14:49am |
re: #287 Obdicut
another question is one of mobility an changing jobs/place of residence. I think it should be universal for all residents of the USA.
| 290 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:17:11am |
re: #289 Second Amendment Renegation
another question is one of mobility an changing jobs/place of residence. I think it should be universal for all residents of the USA.
Which would also simplify things for corporations that have offices/factories in multiple states.
| 291 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:17:44am |
re: #274 RogueOne
but is the answer to ask victims to accept getting stabbed?
Please. That's just silly. No one has said that, and it's an inaccurate characterization of a "last resort" standard.
I think the "reasonable" standard is the acceptable way to go. It still leaves it up to the victim to make the decision in the heat of the moment but still allows for the prosecution/judges to make the final decision on whether they reasonably thought their lives were in danger.
Read that again. It applies, also, to a standard of "reasonable" attempt to retreat and use force as a last resort.
Why do you accept a judge's assessment of "reasonable" in one case, but not in another? And I'd say that you are actually making the judge's assessment more in play in SYG than in a "last resort" assessment - far more discretionary.
This really seems to undermine your basic justification of not trusting the legal system with making assessments.
| 292 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:18:47am |
re: #287 Obdicut
You said "ideal level". My point is preferable, not ideal.We have discussed this before. You may recall a point I made my vote is one of far fewer here at home compared to a national election. Among a few other points.
You were and are unconvinced, I get it. Do we really need to re cover that ground every time an enumerated powers issue is at hand or the commerce clause?
| 293 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:21:01am |
re: #288 Obdicut
This is why GZ isn't under arrest yet.
(2) A law enforcement agency may use standard procedures for investigating the use of force as described in subsection (1), but the agency may not arrest the person for using force unless it determines that there is probable cause that the force that was used was unlawful.
[Link: www.leg.state.fl.us...]
I can't find the exact line I'm looking for. These bills ain't short.
| 294 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:21:22am |
re: #279 Obdicut
Why only probably?
"Probably so" because it's a hypothetical question.
And so, would you agree that if that person in the first example had a chance to escape rather than shoot, they should have taken it? Or that they could have used to the gun to deter rather than instantly shoot?
I don't think I have the right to decide that question for somebody else. I think the question is... in the heat of the moment who gets to make that decision?
No. Why ask something like that? For fuck's sake.
So why don't you like the 'reasonable' standard for 'reasonably tried escape'? Why the trust in prosecutors for one circumstance and not the other?
because I think that's what you would be asking people to do. If the standard is "You have to try to consider running first" you're asking people to consider options that they feel would be putting them in danger.
I don't have any problem with judges making the final call over if the person reasonably believed their lives were in danger. All the SYG should do is take the question of "fight or flee" out of the hands of prosecutors and into the victims.
| 295 |
blueraven Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:22:20am |
re: #292 Daniel Ballard
You said "ideal level". My point is preferable, not ideal.We have discussed this before. You may recall a point I made my vote is one of far fewer here at home compared to a national election. Among a few other points.
You were and are unconvinced, I get it. Do we really need to re cover that ground every time an enumerated powers issue is at hand or the commerce clause?
It is my understanding that under the ACA a state could craft their own plan if they could cover the same amount of people and offer a minimum of affordable coverage options.
| 296 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:22:25am |
re: #292 Daniel Ballard
You said "ideal level". My point is preferable, not ideal
Okay, why is it preferable to do on the state level when there's such massive differences between that as a demographic marker?
.We have discussed this before. You may recall a point I made my vote is one of far fewer here at home compared to a national election. Among a few other points.
None of which matter here. You're not addressing the simple problem that 'state-level' might mean 39 million people or 400,000 people-- yet you're trying to say state level is preferable for demographics.
You were and are unconvinced, I get it. Do we really need to re cover that ground every time an enumerated powers issue is at hand or the commerce clause?
I will continue to bring it up until you actually answer the central problem with arguments that things should be done at the state level: Why is the state-level good? A demographic argument will never, ever make sense because the demographics between states vary too wildly. It can't simultaneously be preferable that an insurance plan cover 39 million people and that an insurance plan cover 400,000 people.
| 297 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:22:50am |
Well. You know who would have a field day with this on the opposite end of things.
JetBlue flight from JFK airport diverted after pilot flips out
A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
| 298 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:23:19am |
re: #291 Talking Point Detective
Please. That's just silly. No one has said that, and it's an inaccurate characterization of a "last resort" standard.
I disagree. "last resort" is too subjective especially when you have the advantage of hindsight.
| 299 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:24:05am |
I have good news and bad news. Good news? I gotta go eat lunch. The bad news? I'll be back. Maybe for an extended time tonight. See y'all in a bit.
| 301 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:25:19am |
re: #297 Gus
Well. You know who would have a field day with this on the opposite end of things.
JetBlue flight from JFK airport diverted after pilot flips out
A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
Perhaps he neglected to post the part about "passing the ammo"...
| 302 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:25:53am |
re: #279 Obdicut
Why only probably? And so, would you agree that if that person in the first example had a chance to escape rather than shoot, they should have taken it? Or that they could have used to the gun to deter rather than instantly shoot?
No. Why ask something like that? For fuck's sake.
So why don't you like the 'reasonable' standard for 'reasonably tried escape'? Why the trust in prosecutors for one circumstance and not the other?
Sorry - I hadn't read this when I wrote my response to Rogue. Kind of interesting that logic lead to two people asking him basically similar questions about the holes in his logic.
| 303 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:26:07am |
re: #297 Gus
Well. You know who would have a field day with this on the opposite end of things.
JetBlue flight from JFK airport diverted after pilot flips out
A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
Dry run?/
Remember those days!
| 304 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:26:22am |
re: #294 RogueOne
I don't think I have the right to decide that question for somebody else.
I'm not asking you if you have the right. Don't you think it would have been better for them to not shoot in that circumstance, at least to have tried something else first?
I think the question is... in the heat of the moment who gets to make that decision?
because I think that's what you would be asking people to do. If the standard is "You have to try to consider running first" you're asking people to consider options that they feel would be putting them in danger.
It's not necessarily 'running'. It can be driving off, backing through a door and slamming it. It can also be 'using less than lethal force', or using the gun as a threat first instead of immediately firing.
And how do you know they feel it would put them in danger?
I don't have any problem with judges making the final call over if the person reasonably believed their lives were in danger. All the SYG should do is take the question of "fight or flee" out of the hands of prosecutors and into the victims.
But why do you not ahve the problem with the judges making the final call over if the person reasonably believed they had a chance to flee?
| 306 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:32:47am |
re: #298 RogueOne
I disagree. "last resort" is too subjective especially when you have the advantage of hindsight.
They are both subjective.
I'd say establishing an action or lack thereof (a reasonable attempt to retreat) is probably easier to establish than a standard of "reasonable" need for self-defense, which is entirely subjective.
At any rate, your basic argument rests on a distrust of law enforcement. Your solution does nothing to lessen the degree to which law enforcement are making an assessment.
Again, I've said this before, but you're proposing a solution without explaining why it produces better outcomes, or dealing with the easily foreseeable consequences of the solution you suggest.
| 307 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:37:54am |
The law also allows you to use lethal force over a "perceived" threat, which is subjective, and difficult to contradict if you leave no living witnesses.
Which is what the law basically encourages.
| 308 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:40:03am |
re: #307 Expand Your Ground
The law also allows you to use lethal force over a "perceived" threat, which is subjective, and difficult to contradict if you leave no living witnesses.
Which is what the law basically encourages.
SYG also truncates the investigatory process, which in theory should lead to a less subjective assessment.
One could argue that the more investigation takes place, the more likely there would be a miscarriage of justice. I'd say that's a pretty big stretch, however.
| 309 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:43:26am |
re: #304 Obdicut
I'm not asking you if you have the right. Don't you think it would have been better for them to not shoot in that circumstance, at least to have tried something else first?
....
And how do you know they feel it would put them in danger?
I don't think "What would be better...?" should be part of the equation. It's completely subjective. You may decide in one situation that you can get away while I, in the exact same situation, may believe I don't have that option.
But why do you not have the problem with the judges making the final call over if the person reasonably believed they had a chance to flee?
There has to be a line somewhere. "If you think your life is in danger you can kill without any questions being asked" shouldn't be the standard. I think part of it should be left to the victim (to decide fight/flee) and have a judge/jury decide if it was reasonable for them to believe they were in danger.
To put it more succinctly (//) I think it's a two part question. Who gets to decide the appropriate course of action when a victim believes their life is on the line and who gets to decide if that belief was reasonable.
| 310 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:43:39am |
re: #296 Obdicut
Okay, why is it preferable to do on the state level when there's such massive differences between that as a demographic marker?
None of which matter here. You're not addressing the simple problem that 'state-level' might mean 39 million people or 400,000 people-- yet you're trying to say state level is preferable for demographics.
I will continue to bring it up until you actually answer the central problem with arguments that things should be done at the state level: Why is the state-level good? A demographic argument will never, ever make sense because the demographics between states vary too wildly. It can't simultaneously be preferable that an insurance plan cover 39 million people and that an insurance plan cover 400,000 people.
Bring it up all you wish. Sometimes when you disagree there is no answer satisfactory to you. In good faith-One more try. IMHO-In this case and in energy policy and a few others-Sacramento can better deal with the overall circumstances of California generally better than DC.
Ask away, but this one is asked and answered.
| 311 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:44:59am |
re: #309 RogueOne
Dude, this is about the conversation we had yesterday when you said that if anyone threatened your wife with a stabbing, you just wanted her to shoot them.
There has to be a line somewhere.
So why is where you're placing the line right?
| 312 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:48:33am |
re: #310 Daniel Ballard
Bring it up all you wish. Sometimes when you disagree there is no answer satisfactory to you. In good faith-One more try. IMHO-In this case and in energy policy and a few others-Sacramento can better deal with the overall circumstances of California generally better than DC.
Ask away, but this one is asked and answered.
No, it's not. That is not an answer to what I asked. I don't know if you don't understand that, but it's true.
The question is: what is it about a state that makes it a preferable level to another for responding to the needs of citizens? It can't be, as you asserted, demographics and population, since states vary wildly in that. An argument that Montana is a good level to respond to the needs of its citizens can't apply to California, with 80 times its population, far more complex infrastructure, and far more variety in everything. By the logic that says Montana is a good level, California can't be a good level.
States are largely arbitrary borders. They are not created from demographics.
| 313 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:49:34am |
re: #79 Targetpractice
If that's a head wound, it's the cleanest I've ever seen. No redness, no swelling, no dried blood. And clearly not bandage or gauze, which would be a must for a scalp laceration.
Meanwhile, there's still no explanation for how a broken nose exhibits no swelling or bruising, and doesn't a splint on it.
I'm surprised the Daily Caller hasn't pulled Bill Frist out of retirement to do all of this remote diagnosing.
| 314 |
Feline Emperor of the Conservative Waste Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:50:44am |
An early good evening folks. Off to change hotels and locate some beer.
| 315 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:50:51am |
re: #313 Gepetto
Do you see any difference between saying "That guy doesn't have a scalp wound, at least not one that's bandaged", and "That woman's neurological functions are intact"?
| 316 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:51:09am |
re: #297 Gus
Well. You know who would have a field day with this on the opposite end of things.
JetBlue flight from JFK airport diverted after pilot flips out
A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
The FBI agent's statement is an... interesting read.
| 317 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:52:16am |
re: #310 Daniel Ballard
Bring it up all you wish. Sometimes when you disagree there is no answer satisfactory to you. In good faith-One more try. IMHO-In this case and in energy policy and a few others-Sacramento can better deal with the overall circumstances of California generally better than DC.
Ask away, but this one is asked and answered.
The "relatively better" explanation is clear. I think Obdi's point is why you don't go for the further division, like city level.
| 318 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:53:16am |
re: #306 Talking Point Detective
They are both subjective.
I'd say establishing an action or lack thereof (a reasonable attempt to retreat) is probably easier to establish than a standard of "reasonable" need for self-defense, which is entirely subjective.
At any rate, your basic argument rests on a distrust of law enforcement. Your solution does nothing to lessen the degree to which law enforcement are making an assessment.
...but I don't think it does. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people that they have to flee or else they could be tried for defending themselves.
Again, I've said this before, but you're proposing a solution without explaining why it produces better outcomes, or dealing with the easily foreseeable consequences of the solution you suggest.
In my mind it's not a matter of "better outcomes". I posted three stories where, without the SYG law, people ended up in prison for years for what everyone admitted was self-defense. If a person believes their lives are in danger then I think they are the ones who get to decide what the appropriate course of action should be. I don't think it's fair for someone to come in after the fact and say "well, we think you should have ran when you had the chance". Unless it's your life on the line at that moment it's not your place to say.
| 319 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:53:32am |
re: #317 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The "relatively better" explanation is clear. I think Obdi's point is why you don't go for the further division, like city level.
Screw the city and their sophisticated ways.
I want to negotiate my healthcare mano a mano (with chickens).
| 320 |
engineer cat Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:54:28am |
presnobama made an indignant speech today detailing oil company subsidies and comparing them to their profits
if i ever made a speech like that in a prominent place i would expect to be mugged and beaten up by exxon
| 321 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:54:32am |
re: #312 Obdicut
As arbitrary as you claim borders are (actually each has it's own worthwhile history) that's not important. What matters in the regulatory structure within. Built in and for California. If you don't see or agree with the potential advantages of better governance from your more local state then county then municipal authorities that's your choice.
| 322 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:54:37am |
re: #311 Obdicut
Dude, this is about the conversation we had yesterday when you said that if anyone threatened your wife with a stabbing, you just wanted her to shoot them.
So why is where you're placing the line right?
because it places the decision of what is the right course of action with the person who believes it's their life on the line.
| 323 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:54:58am |
re: #319 iossarian
Screw the city and their sophisticated ways.
I want to negotiate my healthcare mano a mano (with chickens).
Man, if you do it with chickens, you're bound to have all sorts of pre-existing conditions. Oh wait, you mean...
| 324 |
iossarian Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:55:10am |
re: #318 RogueOne
...but I don't think it does. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people that they have to flee or else they could be tried for defending themselves.
I think this is the crux of the argument. I think that if you can retreat in safety, and you refuse to do so and someone ends up dead as a result, you should have the book thrown at you.
I am of the opinion that people who disagree see something unmanly in the act of retreat.
Note we are not talking about retreating when that might put you in danger; that situation is covered by self-defense.
| 325 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:57:48am |
re: #321 Daniel Ballard
As arbitrary as you claim borders are (actually each has it's own worthwhile history) that's not important.
Yes, it is, if you're making an argument that they're more responsive because they can apply stuff to their demographics. That is your argument-- so you can't ignore that they deal with entirely different levels of demographics.
If you don't see or agree with the potential advantages of better governance from your more local state then county then municipal authorities that's your choice.
But I do! That's exactly my point. Why is the state level preferable the level for health insurance plans, and not the county, or not the municipality? Especially given the vast difference between states in terms of demographics?
| 326 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:59:04am |
It's always easy to get into trouble when you stick your neck out before all the facts are know. I think Obama did make a mistake when he casually weighed in on the Henry Louis Gates situation, esp. when he criticized the Police. (Mr. Gates was breaking into a home, which happened to be his own. It is not inappropriate for the Police to investigate. Many bloggers foolishly asked "who breaks into a house from the front door during the day?" when, in fact, 5 minutes of searching the FBI crime statistics site shows this is the most common MO!)
However, in this case Obama was very careful to make statements about the tragic nature of a high school student who was killed, and stayed away from specifics. I think his comments were appropriate.
| 327 |
RogueOne Thu, Mar 29, 2012 8:59:34am |
re: #324 iossarian
I'm really late for a 1pm appt. but I would guess we'll have plenty of time in the near future to beat this into the ground.//
Enjoy the day people!
| 328 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:01:20am |
re: #318 RogueOne
...but I don't think it does. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people that they have to flee or else they could be tried for defending themselves.
In my mind it's not a matter of "better outcomes". I posted three stories where, without the SYG law, people ended up in prison for years for what everyone admitted was self-defense. If a person believes their lives are in danger then I think they are the ones who get to decide what the appropriate course of action should be. I don't think it's fair for someone to come in after the fact and say "well, we think you should have ran when you had the chance". Unless it's your life on the line at that moment it's not your place to say.
I get why you think that there is a basic unfairness in a requirement about "last resort." I don't think that I disagree.
But the problem, as I see it, is that you are refusing to take on the consequences of how you suggest dealing with that unfairness.
Life is not always fair. You can't just point at something and say "that's unfair," without considering what the relevant alternatives might be. This is why I brought up binary thinking the other day. Yes, a "last resort" requirement is, at some level, perhaps unfair. But what is the societal-level impact, relatively speaking, of replacing that standard with SYG?
You have law enforcement making arbitrary decisions either way.
With SYG, you truncate the investigatory process.
And I'd say that with SYG, you only enlarge the impact of subjective evaluations on the part of law enforcement.
I think we've reached that repeating ourselves stage.
| 329 |
Daniel Ballard Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:02:19am |
re: #325 Obdicut
My argument uses demographics as merely one example among the totality of circumstances states have.
| 330 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:03:11am |
re: #326 ReamWorks
The controversy was about the arrest, and Gates was not arrested for breaking in. Obama was absolutely right in that situation. The policeman's action was dumb.
| 331 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:03:49am |
SOCIALISM!
Why do I focus on #cleanenergy? Substantially reducing energy costs is one of the best ways to help world's poorest t.co/xR20ZVn3— Bill Gates (@BillGates) March 23, 2012
| 332 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:04:06am |
re: #316 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII
The FBI agent's statement is an... interesting read.
"A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
The headline should have said "CHRISTIAN TERRORIST TRIES TO TAKE DOWN AIRPLANE!" After all, if he were of some other faith, what would the headline be?
| 333 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:04:33am |
re: #329 Daniel Ballard
My argument uses demographics as merely one example among the totality of circumstances states have.
I don't see where. You said "Population, demographics, income all make a substantial difference. " Population and income are subsets of 'demographics'.
Can you explain why doing things at a state level in Montana with 400,000 people is right, doing things in California with 39 million is right, but doing things in New York City with 8 mlllion people wouldn't be right?
| 334 |
Talking Point Detective Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:05:00am |
re: #324 iossarian
I am of the opinion that people who disagree see something unmanly in the act of retreat.
Honestly, I think that you've hit the nail on the head, there. I think a lot of the rightwing rhetoric about this law is based on some fear of emasculation - that a "last resort" requirement is someone forcing them to by a pussy.
| 335 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:07:36am |
Now, I've – I don't know, not having been there and not seeing all the facts, what role race played in that. But I think it's fair to say, number one, any of us would be pretty angry; number two, that the Cambridge police acted stupidly in arresting somebody when there was already proof that they were in their own home. And number three, what I think we know separate and apart from this incident is that there is a long history in this country of African-Americans and Latinos being stopped by law enforcement disproportionately. That's just a fact.
There is not a single thing here that is not true.
| 336 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:08:24am |
re: #315 Obdicut
Do you see any difference between saying "That guy doesn't have a scalp wound, at least not one that's bandaged", and "That woman's neurological functions are intact"?
sure. but, to be accurate,"That guy doesn't have a scalp wound, at least not one that's bandaged" is a great deal more precise than many of the comments floating around about this video. He doesn't look all that beat up to me either, but I have seen boxers able to give an interview after a fight who had to be hospitalized a day later from trauma. The initial police report mentions GZ had been treated at the scene.
There's a whole lot in this story to be perplexed about. the lack of any kind of staining on his clothes bothers me, too. I'm hoping for a clearer picture from all the available reports and interviews once they are released.
| 338 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:12:01am |
re: #336 Gepetto
sure. but, to be accurate,"That guy doesn't have a scalp wound, at least not one that's bandaged" is a great deal more precise than many of the comments floating around about this video.
I see most of them as some variety of that. Where do you see one that you feel is reprehensible?
He doesn't look all that beat up to me either, but I have seen boxers able to give an interview after a fight who had to be hospitalized a day later from trauma. The initial police report mentions GZ had been treated at the scene.
Sure. But the point is whether he had reasonable fear that his life was in danger or serious injury was coming, so if he hadn't really gotten hurt at all yet, it's obviously relevant.
| 339 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:12:55am |
re: #297 Gus
Well. You know who would have a field day with this on the opposite end of things.
JetBlue flight from JFK airport diverted after pilot flips out
A grandfather, devout Christian and conservative Republican, his Facebook page lists two activities: “Working Hard” and “Praising God.”
He can add a new activity now, "Flipping out at 30,000 feet"
| 340 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:15:54am |
I'm coming to think that the Zimmerman release had little to do with SYG and a lot to do with Daddy being a judge and Mama being a court clerk. He was known to the police from former arrests and multitudes of 911 calls and he had been complained about by the neighbors. His behavior over a rather long period of time is clearly disturbing. Then the prosecutor refuses the lead investigator's recommendation. This goes higher up the chain than the police. That speaks to influence to me.
| 341 |
lawhawk Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:16:47am |
re: #331 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII
If only MSFT focused on clean code nearly as much as Gates claims to want to focus on clean energy... /but just only...
| 342 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:19:08am |
re: #339 RayFerd
It's also yet another great reason not to have a Facebook! (I don't*). Anything you say there can and will be used against you.
* well, actually, there is a "fan" page for me, of sorts, that Facebook created automatically based on public bios from a Wikipedia entry. I didn't know about it until one day, some particularly stupid person said "I left a comment for you on your Facebook Page! Did you see it?" and I said "I don't have a Facebook page". Sure enough a search came up with this auto-generated fan page.
(For an example of what these pages look like, see [Link: www.facebook.com...] )
| 343 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:22:06am |
re: #340 allegro
I'm coming to think that the Zimmerman release had little to do with SYG and a lot to do with Daddy being a judge and Mama being a court clerk. He was known to the police from former arrests and multitudes of 911 calls and he had been complained about by the neighbors. His behavior over a rather long period of time is clearly disturbing. Then the prosecutor refuses the lead investigator's recommendation. This goes higher up the chain than the police. That speaks to influence to me.
Could be, but it equally could be ordinary good-old-boy taking the word of the white guy over the dead black guy. Zimmerman's parents are in Virginia, so their influence wouldn't be so apparent in Florida. I don't think higher influence was needed. This was routine. Probably wasn't the first time the officer who wanted to arrest him was overruled. I'd like to hear more from him.
| 344 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:22:22am |
So, still no responses out of either the Sanford PD or GZ's lawyer about the video? Funny that, they've been so quick to respond to other "leaks."
| 345 |
Page 3 in the Binder of Women Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:25:37am |
re: #343 wrenchwench
I read in the Orlando sentinel That his dad is in lake Mary fl
| 346 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:26:06am |
re: #336 Gepetto
The initial police report mentions GZ had been treated at the scene
Anecdotal, I guess, but a co-worker who is also a certified EMT says that any head injury is treated with an extremely high degree of suspicion, because you can have a potentially fatal brain bleed and not even present as sick. It is extremely doubtful that Zimmerman told anyone with medical training that he'd had his head repeatedly smashed into the pavement and that somehow didn't result in transport to the emergency room.
| 347 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:28:45am |
re: #345 Hoodies for Justice. T
I read in the Orlando sentinel That his dad is in lake Mary fl
OK, I was wrong! He was a judge in Virginia.
| 348 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:29:23am |
re: #346 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII
Anecdotal, I guess, but a co-worker who is also a certified EMT says that any head injury is treated with an extremely high degree of suspicion, because you can have a potentially fatal brain bleed and not even present as sick. It is extremely doubtful that Zimmerman told anyone with medical training that he'd had his head repeatedly smashed into the pavement and that somehow didn't result in transport to the emergency room.
Yep, slow bleeds can leave the person lucid for a short period before they just drop out. At the very least, he'd have been taken in for an MRI.
| 349 |
Patricia Kayden Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:29:38am |
Looks like the apple didn't fall far from the tree. There was nothing controversial about the President's measured statement.
| 350 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:31:33am |
re: #348 Targetpractice
The police report says he was treated by "SPD". I.e. given first aid by policemen, not necessarily medical professionals.
| 351 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:31:33am |
re: #346 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII
It is extremely doubtful that Zimmerman told anyone with medical training that he'd had his head repeatedly smashed into the pavement and that somehow didn't result in transport to the emergency room.
Exactly.
The idea that he somehow was in this epic fight for his life, getting his head slammed into the pavement repeatedly and afterwards he's: (a) not bleeding like a mofo, (b) not immediately in the hospital getting all sorts of tests done, and (c) walking around upright and of his own volition in the police video strongly implies that he lied about what happened.
Nobody, unless you're Wolverine, gets up and walks away from an epic fight to the death where you get your head slammed in the concrete a bunch of times.
| 352 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:34:17am |
re: #346 Pope Ron Polyp XXXVII
Anecdotal, I guess, but a co-worker who is also a certified EMT says that any head injury is treated with an extremely high degree of suspicion, because you can have a potentially fatal brain bleed and not even present as sick. It is extremely doubtful that Zimmerman told anyone with medical training that he'd had his head repeatedly smashed into the pavement and that somehow didn't result in transport to the emergency room.
I'm also trying to figure out how Martin could be punching Zimmerman in the face at the same time as he is bashing his face into the concrete. As simoom in #262 quoted:
From Fox's write-up on the interview:
Then, Robert Zimmerman claims, Martin punched George Zimmerman in the face, breaking his nose and knocking him to the ground.
"Trayvon Martin got on top of him, and just started beating him," Robert Zimmerman claims. "In his face, on his nose, hitting his face on the concrete."
Really, how does that work? That the guy an hour later doesn't have a mark on his face is a whole 'nother booger in trying to convince anyone of this silly story.
| 353 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:34:46am |
re: #350 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The police report says he was treated by "SPD". I.e. given first aid by policemen, not necessarily medical professionals.
Which is a crock, because if Zimmerman had truly been gone over as the report suggests, then they'd have faced civil charges if they didn't take his injuries seriously and he croaked either in their custody or shortly afterward.
No, there would have been an EMT on scene, if not a trip to the hospital. And if there wasn't, then I'm shocked that Zimmerman didn't sue their asses for his medical expenses.
| 355 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:40:02am |
re: #318 RogueOne
...but I don't think it does. I don't think it's appropriate to tell people that they have to flee or else they could be tried for defending themselves.
[snip]
I don't think 'trial' comes into the picture. I think the main problem is there is no in depth investigation. They can do an investigation without it going to trial or even charges being brought. The big problem is the lack of investigation (in this case it seems at least).
| 356 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:41:16am |
re: #353 Targetpractice
The report really only suggests a bloody nose and some "lacerations" (note: not written by a medic either, so interpretations of what those were can vary), which I guess he could've gotten even by falling and hitting his head all by himself.
I've no idea if in such a case it would've been a standard procedure to rush him to the hospital, but whatever the case may be, that he wasn't doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of damage, as described in the report. But this fact and the video taken together do refute the account of a violent beating.
| 357 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:42:26am |
And even if you believe that Zimmerman was magically healed and provided clean clothes free of blood stains, the cops would still be damned by the way they're treating him at the station. No gloves to search a guy who would have been covered in blood moments prior, letting him lean casually against the wall, and then letting him go around the motorcycle with the cop on the other side.
Almost seems less like a real arrest video and more like actors doing a really lousy performance of going through the motions.
| 358 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:42:29am |
I see that Ann Coulter is trying to be relevant again. She's weighed in on the Trayvon Martin death, and of course is blowing that dogwhistle of hers as much as she can.
The article headline is exactly as appears on her site - and is being reposted across the rightwing blogosphere like wildfire.
The crux of her case:
Two weeks of nonstop hysteria later, it turns out that every part of that gripping plot is based on nothing that could be called a reasonable assumption, much less a fact.
The NFM's theory of the case might be true, just as it might be true that the loud bang I just heard outside my door is Godzilla returning to terrorize Manhattan. I, like the NFM, have no facts supporting my theory. (Although mine is more credible because Al Sharpton is not involved and none of my facts are provably false, such as the NFM's claim about Zimmerman being "white.")
| 359 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:43:16am |
re: #355 RayFerd
I thought so for some time, but apparently there was an investigation - they took his clothes, his gun, interrogated witnesses and wanted to arrest on manslaughter charge - but were prevented by higher-ups.
| 360 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:43:46am |
re: #358 RadicalModerate
I see that Ann Coulter is trying to be relevant again. She's weighed in on the Trayvon Martin death, and of course is blowing that dogwhistle of hers as much as she can.
The article headline is exactly as appears on her site - and is being reposted across the rightwing blogosphere like wildfire.
'POST-RACIAL' LYNCH MOBThe crux of her case:
Let me guess, without looking at the entirety of her screech, that Coulter's jumped onto the "GZ's the victim of a lynch mob!" bandwagon?
| 361 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:44:43am |
re: #321 Daniel Ballard
As arbitrary as you claim borders are (actually each has it's own worthwhile history) that's not important. What matters in the regulatory structure within. Built in and for California. If you don't see or agree with the potential advantages of better governance from your more local state then county then municipal authorities that's your choice.
But the larger you make the system the more you spread out the risk. More people paying in than are actually using the service right at the moment (younger people paying into the system that older people are having to utilize right now, then the young get older and the new youngsters are in the mix).
Make it just a state thing and the states that have a large older population have a much higher payout of claims than a younger population state. Make it nationwide and that spreads the risk maximally.
| 362 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:44:57am |
re: #356 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The report really only suggests a bloody nose and some "lacerations" (note: not written by a medic either, so interpretations of what those were can vary), which I guess he could've gotten even by falling and hitting his head all by himself.
I've no idea if in such a case it would've been a standard procedure to rush him to the hospital, but whatever the case may be, that he wasn't doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of damage, as described in the report. But this fact and the video taken together do refute the account of a violent beating.
I've had a bloody nose. My clothes showed the result of that bloody nose. Where is the evidence of said bloody nose on Zimmerman's clothes? If he was in the midst of a violent altercation logic defies any claims of being able to get a hankie to his nose so quickly as to stop the flow of blood to his shirt.
| 363 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:46:23am |
re: #360 Targetpractice
Let me guess, without looking at the entirety of her screech, that Coulter's jumped onto the "GZ's the victim of a lynch mob!" bandwagon?
Yep. One of her claims to this is the fact that CNN played the "f*****g c**ns" audio, but didn't play any of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermons.
| 364 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:47:24am |
re: #356 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The report really only suggests a bloody nose and some "lacerations" (note: not written by a medic either, so interpretations of what those were can vary), which I guess he could've gotten even by falling and hitting his head all by himself.
I've no idea if in such a case it would've been a standard procedure to rush him to the hospital, but whatever the case may be, that he wasn't doesn't mean that there wasn't some kind of damage, as described in the report. But this fact and the video taken together do refute the account of a violent beating.
The report suggests so, but his lawyer's been claiming a broken nose and scalp lacerations that came just short of requiring stitches. And even if that was all, repeated blows against the sidewalk would have warranted a level of caution far in excess of either was the report suggests or the video demonstrates. Zimmerman is not holding himself like a guy who just got the shit beat out of him.
| 365 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:48:23am |
re: #362 allegro
Well, maybe in his case it wasn't a fountain of blood, rather a few drops, I don't know. They have to answer this question, of course. I just don't preclude a possibility of a plausible answer.
| 366 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:49:00am |
re: #364 Targetpractice
his lawyer's been claiming a broken nose and scalp lacerations that came just short of requiring stitches
Of course he would.
| 367 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:51:01am |
re: #365 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Well, maybe in his case it wasn't a fountain of blood, rather a few drops, I don't know. They have to answer this question, of course. I just don't preclude a possibility of a plausible answer.
Neither did I earlier as less information was available. At this point every claim I have seen in defense of Zimmerman is proving to be considerably more than questionable.
| 368 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:51:30am |
re: #363 RadicalModerate
Yep. One of her claims to this is the fact that CNN played the "f***g c**ns" audio, but didn't play any of Rev. Jeremiah Wright's sermons.
This is a woman who idolizes Joe McCarthy, a man whose legacy was making spurious accusations as a means to destroy the credibility of his political enemies. And one who has attacked people based upon nothing more than the demons in her head. So her accusing anybody of acting like a lynch mob is downright comical.
| 369 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:53:14am |
re: #367 allegro
Oh, that's true. As I said, the accounts of a brutal beating by TM look like taken right out of GZ's butt. I'm only interested in whether the cops lied in their reports. So far I don't see anything there that would require such an assumption.
| 370 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:54:22am |
A bloody nose and some "lacerations" do not amount to a deadly assault, nor do they excuse such.
| 371 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:55:35am |
BTW, on this point: wasn't there an info earlier that there were no bruises on TM's arms?
| 372 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:56:16am |
re: #371 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
BTW, on this point: wasn't there an info earlier that there were no bruises on TM's arms?
That report came from the funeral director.
| 373 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:56:47am |
re: #365 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Well, maybe in his case it wasn't a fountain of blood, rather a few drops, I don't know. They have to answer this question, of course. I just don't preclude a possibility of a plausible answer.
Even a small cut on the head bleeds like mad. If it was large enough of a laceration to possibly need stitches, then as SawII reminded us "Oh yes, there will be blood!"
| 374 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:56:57am |
re: #350 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The police report says he was treated by "SPD". I.e. given first aid by policemen, not necessarily medical professionals.
Report says "SFD", which is the fire department, which has EMTs, usually. I didn't see indication of what certification the responders had, but they were with "SFD Rescue 38".
| 375 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:57:00am |
re: #371 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
BTW, on this point: wasn't there an info earlier that there were no bruises on TM's arms?
The funeral home guy said there were no wounds on Martin's hands or arms that would indicate that he had been in a fight.
| 376 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 9:58:31am |
re: #374 wrenchwench
Report says "SFD", which is the fire department, which has EMTs, usually. I didn't see indication of what certification the respoders had, but they were with "SFD Rescue 38".
And EMTs usually are required to keep records of such incidents. So we now have new witnesses, new evidence, that is nowhere in sight.
| 377 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:00:01am |
re: #376 Targetpractice
And EMTs usually are required to keep records of such incidents. So we now have new witnesses, new evidence, that is nowhere in sight.
Yes. The police report I linked above says Zimmerman was 'cleared by SFD'.
| 378 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:00:26am |
re: #374 wrenchwench
Ah, OK, thanks for the correction. With the quality of the copy I didn't see it quite clearly, and with him being treated in the rear of the police vehicle I assumed it was SPD.
| 379 |
Shropshire_Slasher Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:02:02am |
If GZ shot TM in the heart, there would be little blood, because the heart can't pump if it is in pieces.
(not to be gruesome sorry.)
| 380 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:02:42am |
re: #376 Targetpractice
And EMTs usually are required to keep records of such incidents. So we now have new witnesses, new evidence, that is nowhere in sight.
But then it's a simple, verifiable matter. If the police concocted this whole description out of thin air for some unknown reason, we will know about it, but I wouldn't bet on it.
| 381 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:04:03am |
This article brings up more interesting questions and a couple of things of which I was unaware:
Trayvon Martin: The 5 Key Unanswered Questions
1. What was the purported “conflict” that required the initial prosecutor to step down?...
2. Why did the prosecutor ignore the recommendations of the lead homicide investigator?...
3. Why did then-Police Chief Bill Lee make public statements directly contradicting the official recommendations of the police department?...
4. Who leaked Trayvon Martin’s school records?...
5. Why was Trayvon Martin’s body tagged as a John Doe?...
All really good questions.
| 382 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:05:00am |
re: #379 Tommy's cone of shame
If GZ shot TM in the heart, there would be little blood, because the heart can't pump if it is in pieces.
(not to be gruesome sorry.)
They tried to revive him with chest compressions and breaths, so ...
| 383 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:05:57am |
re: #373 RayFerd
Even a small cut on the head bleeds like mad. If it was large enough of a laceration to possibly need stitches, then as SawII reminded us "Oh yes, there will be blood!"
Right. Scalp and head injuries bleed like crazy. Back in high school, I had a friend get clocked in the head during a drama stunt that went wrong in school and he got a cut on his temple that required a butterfly closure. He had blood streaming all the way down his face from that one little cut.
Lacerations are deep cuts that require stitches. No way in hell that anyone gets a laceration on their head and doesn't have blood all over the place.
| 384 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:06:23am |
re: #380 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
But then it's a simple, verifiable matter. If the police concocted this whole description out of thin air for some unknown reason, we will know about it, but I wouldn't bet on it.
They're hiding themselves behind the veil of a potential trial, claiming that all the key missing pieces of the puzzle are off-limits to the press until the matters deemed "closed." I don't think we'll know if this was truly a concocted stew of bullshit until they start yanking badges and start slapping on cuffs.
| 385 |
Shropshire_Slasher Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:07:25am |
re: #382 wrenchwench
Just a thought, I read somewhere that GZ had no blood on him and TM was on top of him when he was shot.
| 386 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:08:43am |
re: #384 Targetpractice
Well, maybe there will be more leaks. In any case, now that the FBI and special prosecutor are involved, if there was any grand conspiracy, it will be exposed, since it's hard to keep all the loose ends straight.
| 387 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:09:21am |
re: #385 Tommy's cone of shame
Just a thought, I read somewhere that GZ had no blood on him and TM was on top of him when he was shot.
Which also makes me wonder how GZ got the gun out of his holster from inside his waistband if the kid was on top of him. If he had his gun in his hand Martin would be more worried about getting that gun than smashing the guy's face... wouldn't he?
| 388 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:10:13am |
re: #385 Tommy's cone of shame
Just a thought, I read somewhere that GZ had no blood on him and TM was on top of him when he was shot.
I find it odd that the police report says they found a black male laying face down with his hands underneath him. How did they know he was black? I guess his head could have been turned to the side, and his hood could have been down.
| 389 |
Shropshire_Slasher Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:13:36am |
re: #383 Lidane
I can attest to that, I thought it was smart to put my caulk gun at the top of a thirty foot ladder. Then I decided to move ladder. I got the steel handle of the caulk gun right above my hairline. Twelve staples and one u-shaped scar later I learned my lesson. Head wounds BLEED.
| 390 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:13:56am |
re: #388 wrenchwench
I find it odd that the police report says they found a black male laying face down with his hands underneath him. How did they know he was black? I guess his head could have been turned to the side, and his hood could have been down.
Well, I'd assume the police report would factor in that piece of information, even if it wasn't obvious at the precise moment they arrived.
| 391 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:17:06am |
Roseanne Barr Joins Twitter Vigilante Crew
Star tweeted home address of George Zimmerman's parents
| 392 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:18:02am |
re: #391 Killgore Trout
No one has ever accused Roseanne Barr of being smart.
| 393 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:18:05am |
re: #391 Killgore Trout
All these people should be charged with something, IMHO.
| 394 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:18:39am |
But while Barr deleted her original posting, the Zimmermans’s address remains in messages in her Twitter stream. Barr’s original tweet was a retweet of a post by a new Twitter user who appears devoted to disseminating the Zimmermans’s address and phone number, as well as contact information for Joseph Oliver, who has made numerous TV appearances in support of Zimmerman, a friend and former coworker.Still, the entertainer left open the possibility that she would again circulate the Seminole County address of Zimmerman’s parents. “If Zimmerman isn’t arrested I’ll rt his address again.” She added, “maybe go 2 his house myself.”
What an idiot. People are going to get killed over this crap.
| 395 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:19:14am |
re: #393 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
All these people should be charged with something, IMHO.
Maybe. It's such a reckless thing to do.
| 396 |
Sheila Broflovski Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:19:34am |
re: #391 Killgore Trout
Even more inexplicable than Roseanne Barr is The Forward's relentless promotion of her. I mean WTF?
| 397 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:19:37am |
re: #394 Killgore Trout
It's almost as though words and ideas have some sort of power, and there's reason to be afraid of their misuse.
| 398 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:20:44am |
re: #394 Killgore Trout
What an idiot. People are going to get killed over this crap.
Is it even the correct information, or is she just joining Spike Lee in involving random unrelated people in all this?
| 399 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:21:42am |
re: #338 Obdicut
I see most of them as some variety of that. Where do you see one that you feel is reprehensible?
Sure. But the point is whether he had reasonable fear that his life was in danger or serious injury was coming, so if he hadn't really gotten hurt at all yet, it's obviously relevant.
absolutely no way you can honestly determine GZ's level of fear from either a lack of a bandaid or the rest of this video. you can guess at the level of visible damage, and speculate on his clothing, and attempt to divine police attitudes from their actions on the video, thats pretty much it. In a similar vein, it would be difficult to determine TM's state of mind from the evidence so far presented. In fear from being followed? Angry at being confronted? I've not even read about where on his body this young man was fatally wounded, and there's a whole lot of evidence still missing from this narrative.
| 400 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:21:44am |
re: #397 Obdicut
There are legal restrictions on incitement to violence. She's getting close to that area. She didn't just call somebody a bad name.
| 401 |
Killgore Trout Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:22:09am |
re: #398 Simply Sarah
Is it even the correct information, or is she just joining Spike Lee in involving random unrelated people in all this?
It seems she used the correct address.
| 402 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:22:19am |
re: #399 Gepetto
The level of damage his suffered is material to the case.
| 403 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:24:10am |
re: #401 Killgore Trout
It seems she used the correct address.
I'm honestly not sure if that makes me feel it was better or worse than if it wasn't. I'm going to go with "The simple attempt is at the very least unethical and threatening and downright dangerous."
| 404 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:24:34am |
"You're not gonna use the pink ball. We're not gonna let you do that. Not on camera." Santorum to a young fella bowling with him
— Sam Youngman (@samyoungman) March 28, 2012
...
.@Philip_Elliott suggested "friends don't let friends..." Santorum picked it up from there saying "friends don't let friends use pink balls"
— Sam Youngman (@samyoungman) March 28, 2012
| 405 |
Darth Vader Gargoyle Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:26:08am |
re: #403 Simply Sarah
I'm honestly not sure if that makes me feel it was better or worse than if it wasn't. I'm going to go with "The simple attempt is at the very least unethical and threatening and downright dangerous."
Lynch mobs are fine, as long as they are to lynch Whitey!!!
//
| 406 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:26:26am |
I believe there will be a round of praise for Putin from certain quarters soon:
[Link: www.rferl.org...]
A controversial bill that would impose fines for the alleged "spreading of homosexual propaganda" has been submitted to Russia's State Duma lower house of parliament.
The bill, submitted on March 29 by lawmakers from the West Siberian-Novosibirsk region, calls for fines of up to 500,000 rubles (around $16,500) for "spreading homosexual propaganda" to minors, and up to 1 million rubles (around $33,000) for "promoting pedophilia."
| 407 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:27:57am |
re: #400 Killgore Trout
There are legal restrictions on incitement to violence. She's getting close to that area. She didn't just call somebody a bad name.
Why are you talking about people just being called a bad name? And sure, incitement to violence can be masked in many forms. One of those forms is in simply demonizing someone and saying that they're responsible for all sorts of vague crimes-- calling them a traitor, for example, the legal penalty of which is death.
The white supremacists are great at this sort of language. The FBI has talked about this quite a bit.
Likewise, you can cause a lot of effects with speech of a non-violent sort as well, like if you lie to people about what the contents of a government law is. You will actually make them more ignorant than they were, and that's something to be concerned with. The more disinformation, the worse.
| 408 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:28:08am |
Sanford police just released even MORE video of George Zimmerman at police headquarters the day he was questioned. Live at 5 on Ch 9
— Daralene Jones (@DaraleneJones) March 29, 2012
| 409 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:29:04am |
re: #406 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
I believe there will be a round of praise for Putin from certain quarters soon:
[Link: www.rferl.org...]
He is also opposed to pink bowling balls?
| 410 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:30:15am |
re: #408 wrenchwench
Perhaps this time it'll be something with audio.
| 411 |
EdDantes Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:32:37am |
re: #409 wrenchwench
He is also opposed to pink bowling balls?
And where does he stand on blue balls?
| 412 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:39:27am |
re: #408 wrenchwench
Oh, this should be interesting. I eagerly await all the wingnut bleating in response.
| 413 |
RadicalModerate Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:40:39am |
re: #412 Lidane
Oh, this should be interesting. I eagerly await all the wingnut bleating in response.
Not to mention the "Daily Caller" Photoshop Squad.
| 414 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:41:26am |
re: #412 Lidane
Oh, this should be interesting. I eagerly await all the wingnut bleating in response.
They seem to have gone silent since the first video came out last night. I've seen a few try to put forth the whole "Paramedics cleaned him up" bit, but it's almost as though they don't even believe it as they type it.
| 415 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:42:11am |
| 416 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:42:28am |
Barr’s posting of the correct Florida address of Robert and Gladys Zimmerman came at the same time Spike Lee was issuing an apology for erroneously disseminating a tweet that purportedly contained the home address of George Zimmerman, who last month killed teenager Trayvon Martin.The residence cited by Lee is actually the home of an elderly couple with no connection to Zimmerman.
Spike Lee should go to jail for this. This is an outrage. If you're going to be a "vigilante" you can't afford to make mistakes.
| 417 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:42:40am |
re: #414 Targetpractice
I think the paramedics did clean him up, but that the injuries weren't that severe. Head wounds that don't require bandages are very small, in general.
| 418 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:43:01am |
re: #416 ReamWorks
Spike Lee should go to jail for this. This is an outrage.
It's really sad that the response to vigilantism is so often vigilantism right back.
| 419 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:43:55am |
re: #417 Obdicut
I think the paramedics did clean him up, but that the injuries weren't that severe. Head wounds that don't require bandages are very small, in general.
And not at all life-threatening, which would probably be why the lead homicide investigator wasn't buying GZ's version of events.
| 420 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:44:29am |
re: #418 Obdicut
my point is, if you're going to be a vigilante, you can't afford to make a mistake!
| 421 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:47:05am |
re: #365 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
Well, maybe in his case it wasn't a fountain of blood, rather a few drops, I don't know. They have to answer this question, of course. I just don't preclude a possibility of a plausible answer.
Maybe he was licked clean by marauding raccoons...
| 422 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:48:28am |
Liberty Counsel: Anti-violence laws protecting LGBT repress the Church
Unless any of our detractors, which I know they will, attempt to say that we are advocating violence against people who engage in these aberrant sexual behaviors, that is of course not the case, nobody I know favors of course violence, we all are opposed to violence against any individual for anything. But that’s not what’s happening here. What’s happening is they’re using this specter of some kind of notion of ‘mass violence’ committed against homosexuals, they do the same thing here in the United States, ‘mass discrimination,’ something where there is no evidence of course against people who are engaged in these behaviors. They use that as a Trojan Horse to force, to compel nations and individuals and groups and churches that embrace traditional values, relative to sexual behavior, to push them into the closet and say ‘no, no, you have to adopt a full affirmation of these perversions.’
| 423 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:48:52am |
| 424 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:49:17am |
re: #406 Liberty Hedgehog (fka Freedom Alligator)
The Russian derogatory term "pederast" refers to both homosexuals and pedophiles, who are seen as moral equivalents (just like Comrade Santorum).
| 425 |
EdDantes Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:49:58am |
re: #421 Expand Your Ground
Maybe he was licked clean by marauding raccoons...
Ah.. the old, "Marauding racoons licked my wounds clean" defense. I never tire of hearing it.
| 426 |
Sionainn Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:50:24am |
re: #414 Targetpractice
They seem to have gone silent since the first video came out last night. I've seen a few try to put forth the whole "Paramedics cleaned him up" bit, but it's almost as though they don't even believe it as they type it.
Oh, they are posting an "enhanced" photo to prove that Zimmerman suffered a serious head wound. I'm calling nonsense because if his wound was that large, he'd have been bleeding like a stuck pig and the back of his jacket would be covered in blood.
| 427 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:50:34am |
re: #425 EdDantes
Ah.. the old, "Marauding racoons licked my wounds clean" defense. I never tire of hearing it.
Ice Weasels ripped my flesh!
| 428 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:51:26am |
re: #426 Sionainn
Oh, they are posting an "enhanced" photo to prove that Zimmerman suffered a serious head wound. I'm calling nonsense because if his wound was that large, he'd have been bleeding like a stuck pig and the back of his jacket would be covered in blood.
Not only that, but he would've been in the hospital if his wound had been that large, and we'd have records of it.
| 429 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:52:25am |
| 430 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:54:37am |
re: #426 Sionainn
Oh, they are posting an "enhanced" photo to prove that Zimmerman suffered a serious head wound. I'm calling nonsense because if his wound was that large, he'd have been bleeding like a stuck pig and the back of his jacket would be covered in blood.
If his wound was that severe, not only would he be in the hospital as Lidane said, there'd be bandages over it. And I've heard the suggestion that the jacket's color would have covered up the blood, and that's BS. Fresh blood, perhaps. But dried blood is a lot darker shade and a patch big enough to indicate the sort of wound speculated would be easily visible even on a low-quality video image.
| 431 |
Sionainn Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:55:01am |
re: #408 wrenchwench
[Embedded content]
I just looked at Channel 9 and they only have the ABC video already shown up on their site.
| 432 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:56:08am |
re: #426 Sionainn
Oh, they are posting an "enhanced" photo to prove that Zimmerman suffered a serious head wound. I'm calling nonsense because if his wound was that large, he'd have been bleeding like a stuck pig and the back of his jacket would be covered in blood.
It's also in a strange place, towards the top of his head. If he was down on his back and Martin slammed his head into the concrete, the wound would be on the back of his skull, not up there.
| 433 |
Kragar Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:56:58am |
Romney complains about the tax on his $100 million IRA
in today’s Wall Street Journal the “tax problem” created by Romney’s massive $100 million retirement account:
In any case, swelling the IRA to the size Mr. Romney’s reached has “created a tax problem” for the former Massachusetts governor, said a Romney campaign official. Tax-law changes since Mr. Romney’s Bain tenure mean that long-term capital gains in regular accounts now are taxed at 15%. But IRA gains are taxed at ordinary-income rates upon withdrawal, which for Mr. Romney, under current law, would be 35%.
“Who wants to have $100 million in an IRA?” said the campaign official.
Surely most people would happily accept a $100 million IRA, and all of its associated “tax problems,” if Romney is looking to offload it.
| 434 |
AK-47% Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:58:33am |
re: #426 Sionainn
Oh, they are posting an "enhanced" photo to prove that Zimmerman suffered a serious head wound. I'm calling nonsense because if his wound was that large, he'd have been bleeding like a stuck pig and the back of his jacket would be covered in blood.
tghe people who reject the enhanced audio of his "f*cking (unknown)" statement are perfectly happy to accept an enhanced photo that supports their case.
Rohrschach, anyone?
| 435 |
Targetpractice Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:58:48am |
Oh, and it seems that another of the witnesses, or rather his mother, is painting a picture of a police department at odds with itself:
Video: Mom of 13-Year-Old Witness in Trayvon Shooting Speaks Out
“The lead investigator from the Sanford Police Department stood in my family room and told me this was absolutely not self-defense and they needed to prove it,” said Brown. “He told me, and I’m paraphrasing this quote, ‘Read between the lines. There’s some stereotyping going on here.’”
Brown said police did not contact her son about his 911 call until five days after the shooting. And when they did question him, Brown said she thought the questions were “leading.”
This matches elements of what Mary Cutcher told the press, that the cops didn't come around until days after the shooting to question folks and that they were "correcting" witnesses.
| 436 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:59:02am |
re: #422 Kragar
Liberty Counsel: Anti-violence laws protecting LGBT repress the Church
Yeah. That makes sense. Because nothing oppressors churches more than "Anti-violence laws protecting LGBT" people.
//
What, do they want to reserve the right to engage in organized "church sponsored violence" sometimes in the future?
Liberty my ass.
| 437 |
Simply Sarah Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:59:11am |
re: #433 Kragar
Romney complains about the tax on his $100 million IRA
Surely most people would happily accept a $100 million IRA, and all of its associated “tax problems,” if Romney is looking to offload it.
Whaaaaaa! I have to pay a lot of taxes because I make so much money! It's terrible! I can only gold plate two of my mansions instead of three!
| 438 |
Lidane Thu, Mar 29, 2012 10:59:18am |
re: #433 Kragar
*looks at checking account*
I'll gladly deal with a $100 million IRA over what I've got now.
Also, how does this make Barack Obama the elitist again?
| 439 |
Sionainn Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:00:42am |
re: #432 allegro
It's also in a strange place, towards the top of his head. If he was down on his back and Martin slammed his head into the concrete, the wound would be on the back of his skull, not up there.
To me, it looks like a shadow from a skull indentation. My husband shaves his head bald, and he doesn't have a perfectly smooth head. He's got a couple of areas where it looks like lines of indentations in his skull.
| 440 |
wrenchwench Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:00:42am |
re: #431 Sionainn
I just looked at Channel 9 and they only have the ABC video already shown up on their site.
It's a teaser for the evening news.
| 441 |
Gus Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:00:50am |
re: #438 Lidane
*looks at checking account*
I'll gladly deal with a $100 million IRA over what I've got now.
Also, how does this make Barack Obama the elitist again?
Do you realize how hard it is to keep a 20,000 square foot house clean?
//
| 442 |
allegro Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:01:18am |
re: #438 Lidane
*looks at checking account*
I'll gladly deal with a $100 million IRA over what I've got now.
Also, how does this make Barack Obama the elitist again?
I think all that's left is superior intelligence and accomplishment.
| 443 |
Sionainn Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:01:40am |
| 444 |
ReamWorks SKG Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:03:39am |
IRA distributions have always been taxed at ordinary rates. This is nothing new. If you expect to have significant income after retirement, there may not be a big benefit.
Of course, with interest rates being held artificially low to keep house prices propped up, it's hard for even a multi-millionaire to have significant income on his investments.
| 445 |
Eventual Carrion Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:08:54am |
re: #421 Expand Your Ground
Maybe he was licked clean by marauding raccoons...
Fucking coo .... oh sorry
| 446 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:33:06am |
re: #428 Lidane
Not only that, but he would've been in the hospital if his wound had been that large, and we'd have records of it.
If he did go to the hospital, perhaps his lawyer would release the records, but perhaps not, he might wait for the trial. Hospital records are not public records. We have the original police report, and the video, and some interviews with witnesses at this point, thats it.
| 447 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:39:46am |
re: #419 Targetpractice
And not at all life-threatening, which would probably be why the lead homicide investigator wasn't buying GZ's version of events.
That's an absurd assertion. Concussive injury to the head and brain can kill someone with very little visible sign on the skin of the head. again, there is so much we don't know in this case.
| 448 |
Gepetto Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:50:59am |
re: #402 Obdicut
The level of damage his suffered is material to the case.
and you cannot assess the level of damage from a grainy video. you can speculate, but the reports of the SFD, the SPD and any subsequent medical records generated from a hospital or doctor are the standard for assessment. A concussive injury to the body, and especially to the head, may have few outward signs. That's why such assessments are made on the basis of other tests. I think the apparent lack of staining on the shirt from what is reported to be a close-in shooting is a stronger piece of evidence from this particular video, and even that would have to be backed up by something other than this video.
| 449 |
Our Precious Bodily Fluids Thu, Mar 29, 2012 11:53:21am |
re: #433 Kragar
Surely most people would happily accept a $100 million IRA, and all of its associated “tax problems,” if Romney is looking to offload it.
Well, shit. If the Feds are going to it down to a pitiful $65 million, they might as well take the whole lot. Might as well set it on fire at this point. $65 million? I'd be embarrassed to be seen walking around with only $65 million.
| 450 |
Obdicut Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:34:12pm |
re: #448 Gepetto
No one is under the impression this isn't speculative.
A concussive injury to the body, and especially to the head, may have few outward signs.
Sure. But what was asserted was cuts to his head. Lacerations.
If the police report contains some sort of explanation, that's one thing. It's difficult to think of an explanation that would fit the story of a savage attack that broke his nose and lacerated his scalp.
| 451 |
Lord Baron Viscount Duke Earl Count Planckton Thu, Mar 29, 2012 12:44:48pm |
re: #424 Expand Your Ground
The Russian derogatory term "pederast" refers to both homosexuals and pedophiles, who are seen as moral equivalents (just like Comrade Santorum).
"Pederast" as a medical (i.e. non-derogatory) term refers to male pedophiles and ephebophiles, but in common parlance (as a derogatory term) it is used almost exclusively to refer to male homosexuals, rather than pedophiles.
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