1 | ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:42:41pm |
And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."
2 | leftynyc Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:44:07pm |
Repeating from downstairs - NY Post reporting that shooters name was Adam Lanza. Older brother's name is Ryan and the police are questioning him.
3 | Vicious Michigan Union Thug Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:45:01pm |
re: #1 ReamWorks SKG
And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."
I totally expect the ODS-infected mob will make up a conspiracy that "Obama was behind this just in order to take our guns away!" Wait for it.
4 | ReamWorks SKG Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:46:00pm |
Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.
I liked his choice of Psalm 147 to conclude. ([Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...] )
5 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:46:23pm |
re: #3 Vicious Michigan Union Thug
I totally expect the ODS-infected mob will make up a conspiracy that "Obama was behind this just in order to take our guns away!" Wait for it.
@sambora_suplex How about treating Obama as a human being for once?Geeze.
— Kurt Akemann (@Dark_Falcon7) December 14, 2012
6 | Alexzander Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:47:18pm |
re: #2 leftynyc
Repeating from downstairs - NY Post reporting that shooters name was Adam Lanza. Older brother's name is Ryan and the police are questioning him.
Could that be the same Ryan that was first mis-identified as the shooter?
7 | simoom Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:47:53pm |
Literally catching breath walking out of WH briefing, never saw a President get that choked up. Very moving. Utter silence after— Ed Henry (@edhenryTV) December 14, 2012
Aids were holding hands and crying off to the side during the president's statement.— Eric Breese (@EricBreese) December 14, 2012
8 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:48:33pm |
Latest police press conference - 26 dead, 20 children, 6 adults. The murderer is dead as well. And another adult dead in Hoboken.
Declined to make a positive identification of the killer.
9 | A Man for all Seasons Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:48:57pm |
re: #4 ReamWorks SKG
Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.
So true.. Just one of many reasons I'm proud he is our President
10 | RadicalModerate Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:49:01pm |
re: #1 ReamWorks SKG
And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."
I'm already seeing on some wingnut sites claiming that Obama's tears were fake, and that it proves that the mass killing was some sort of "false flag" operation.
Honestly, these people are not right in the head.
11 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:49:58pm |
re: #10 RadicalModerate
I'm already seeing on some wingnut sites claiming that Obama's tears were fake, and that it proves that the mass killing was some sort of "false flag" operation.
Honestly, these people are not right in the head.
Be glad that jedi powers are fictional. The Dark Side would be very strong in a lot of these people.
/
12 | leftynyc Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:51:45pm |
re: #6 Alexzander
Could that be the same Ryan that was first mis-identified as the shooter?
I honestly don't know. I saw this on the CNN twitter feed.
13 | watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:52:29pm |
re: #1 ReamWorks SKG
And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."
It already has, the Freepers are wondering how us liberals manage to get people to do these suicide missions as false flag operations against the 2nd Amendment.
Really...sigh. :(
14 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:54:55pm |
re: #1 ReamWorks SKG
And this will soon be twisted into "Obama wants to take away our guns."
First he will be excoriated for "politicizing a tragedy" One that had nothing to do with guns...
15 | Big Steve Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:54:58pm |
Those among us who are parents, whether our children at 8 days old or 38 years old, know for certain that the humanness has been torn out of the parents whose children were lost today. You simply sent your baby off to kindergarten today and they didn't come back. I am the most stable person you will ever meet, yet I doubt I could survive were this to have happened to me.
16 | William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:00pm |
re: #15 Big Steve
Those among us who are parents, whether our children at 8 days old or 38 years old, know for certain that the humanness has been torn out of the parents whose children were lost today. You simply sent your baby off to kindergarten today and they didn't come back. I am the most stable person you will ever meet, yet I doubt I could survive were this to have happened to me.
^^^This.
17 | Awea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:12pm |
20 more minutes til my daughter gets out of school (4th grade) been holding myself back from going early and taking her home.
18 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 12:57:55pm |
I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.
19 | Bulworth Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:01:12pm |
Latest police press conference - 26 dead, 20 children, 6 adults. The murderer is dead as well. And another adult dead in Hoboken.
That's really just....
Unspeakable.
20 | A Mom Anon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:02:32pm |
I have been caring for an injured dog and a sick teenager today and I just heard about this. What the hell can you say about something so freaking horrible?
The Universe keeps presenting us with this shit for a reason. At what fucking point do we get to have a grown up discussion about mental health,gun ownership with rules that are enforced and a society that thinks violence is entertaining?
I'm going to go back to caring for my family today and say a prayer that all of these families can find some way back from the horrible darkness that has enveloped their lives now. God Fucking Damnit,it's happened again. Shit.
21 | Big Steve Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:04:06pm |
re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz
Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.
23 | leftynyc Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:04:36pm |
re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz
I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.
I really hope you don't mind that I copied your comment to show people (like minded) on another site. I really should have asked you first and I apologize for that.
24 | Petero1818 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:06:29pm |
I truly hope that out of this unspeakable tragedy comes the impetus for an honest and frank discussion about the issues inherent in this sort of thing. I am just sick about it, and it is not the time for political points. But this is simply too horrible to continue to kick the can down the road again on these issues.
25 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:18pm |
"@cnnbrk: 3 guns found at #CTshooting scene: .223 Bushmaster, Glock, Sig-Sauer, police say. on.cnn.com/Zq1uF7"— Jim Roberts (@nytjim) December 14, 2012
26 | watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:31pm |
For what it's worth Fox is now "confirming" that the shooter was 20 year old Adam Lanza and that police are questioning his older brother 24 year old Ryan Lanza in New jersey now.
The way misinformation is being thrown around this afternoon we will probably be told that this report is incorrect also later.
27 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:08:53pm |
Not trying to make a joke here, but how will the dissonance handle calling unionized groups "thugs" (which has especially included teachers at times) and also calling for arming and training them to repel these liberal-socialist attacks?
28 | Randall Gross Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:09:23pm |
Back. Right wing watch has the Fischer video up, I couldn't stomach it.
29 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:10:28pm |
re: #28 Randall Gross
Back. Right wing watch has the Fischer video up, I couldn't stomach it.
I saw it. I may post it later, but not right now.
30 | aagcobb Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:10:58pm |
re: #20 A Mom Anon
I have been caring for an injured dog and a sick teenager today and I just heard about this. What the hell can you say about something so freaking horrible?
The Universe keeps presenting us with this shit for a reason. At what fucking point do we get to have a grown up discussion about mental health,gun ownership with rules that are enforced and a society that thinks violence is entertaining?
I'm going to go back to caring for my family today and say a prayer that all of these families can find some way back from the horrible darkness that has enveloped their lives now. God Fucking Damnit,it's happened again. Shit.
Its is tragic that the gun issue is dominated by paranoid freaks who think they need an arsenal to fight another civil war against their own government. How did they become the dominant voice on this issue instead of sane people?
31 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:14pm |
re: #21 Big Steve
Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.
Not today...I can understand that. My kids were already home from school when I got the news here...but America needs to have this discussion - as soon as the facts are cleared and the funerals have all been held.
This shit will not go away until America takes a good long look at its approach to guns, violence and mental health issues
32 | Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:22pm |
re: #27 Feline Fearless Leader
Not trying to make a joke here, but how will the dissonance handle calling unionized groups "thugs" (which has especially included teachers at times) and also calling for arming and training them to repel these liberal-socialist attacks?
No shit. I've heard the same thing from a couple wingnuts now: "If the teachers had been armed..." Yeah, and then what? You going to start paying them hazard pay as well? Provide funds for them to train on how to handle those guns? And how many of these nutbars who think public schools are indoctrination centers would trust armed teachers in the classroom?
33 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:11:37pm |
re: #23 leftynyc
I really hope you don't mind that I copied your comment to show people (like minded) on another site. I really should have asked you first and I apologize for that.
I put it on a blog, it is fair game.
34 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:12:17pm |
re: #21 Big Steve
Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.
I respectfully disagree.
This is a discussion long in the making and we've been kicking down the road for far too long.
We need a serious discussion of our gun culture and lack of mental health care.
No more ignoring it.
35 | CarleeCork Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:12:40pm |
re: #30 aagcobb
Its is tragic that the gun issue is dominated by paranoid freaks who think they need an arsenal to fight another civil war against their own government. How did they become the dominant voice on this issue instead of sane people?
The power of the NRA.
36 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:13:47pm |
re: #21 Big Steve
Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.
If not now, when? If not us, who?
Or perhaps you've not noticed that "not now, we need some time before we can talk about this" always seems to last till the next time something happens?
37 | Randall Gross Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:14:01pm |
Dispatch audio released
38 | Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:14:17pm |
re: #35 CarleeCork
The power of the NRA.
Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.
39 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:15:00pm |
The 2nd Amendment says "Well-Regulated Militia."
Time to well regulate who gets guns. Don't particularly care about what guns (aside from wanting their to be a limit to magazine size for guns with those. Esssentially, you have to use factory recommended ammo load.
Now, since I have departed from the the realm of American Pro-Gun to European Pro-Gun, what should my nic be now?
MuslimLiberal? Islamic Liberal? Something else entirely?
40 | dr. luba Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:15:21pm |
re: #21 Big Steve
So when do we go there? We keep putting off these discussions, pretend everything is just peachy in this greatest of all possible countries, and nothing changes.
More martyrs to freedom and the second amendment. The least we could do is build them a monument.
41 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:10pm |
re: #21 Big Steve
Sol....respect your comment but can we really not go there yet....give us just a little time to digest this.
Go where?
42 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:35pm |
re: #35 CarleeCork
The power of the NRA.
They were Grover Norquisting conservative candidates before Grover Norquist.
/
43 | gwangung Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:16:48pm |
re: #32 Targetpractice
No shit. I've heard the same thing from a couple wingnuts now: "If the teachers had been armed..." Yeah, and then what? You going to start paying them hazard pay as well? Provide funds for them to train on how to handle those guns? And how many of these nutbars who think public schools are indoctrination centers would trust armed teachers in the classroom?
If you arm the teachers, you give them two diametrically opposed charges: protect the children and to take down the shooter. You either get the children to safety (remove them as targets) or you risk their safety by trying to kill the shooter. Trying to do both almost guaruntees you AND the children will get killed. Why do you think police try to clear the area around a shooter of civilians FIRST?
44 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:18pm |
45 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:24pm |
AP is now confirming that the killer's name was Adam Lanza.
46 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:44pm |
re: #38 Targetpractice
Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.
It took a Republican Icon of a president getting shot to get as far as a Brady Bill, one which has been de-clawed successively ever since it was begrudgingly passed...
I fear that schoolkids will have to die by the busload before they can make any more progress
47 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:17:55pm |
I'M ON HANNITY RADIO RIGHT NOW!more guns, less mass shootings ...— Ann Coulter (@AnnCoulter) December 14, 2012
48 | Vicious Michigan Union Thug Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:18:12pm |
50 | Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:18:50pm |
re: #47 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
How many guns do Ann and Sean have on their persons right now?
51 | Randall Gross Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:11pm |
From the audio:
"Send buses -- send everything" "you might have to call Danbury"
52 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:34pm |
re: #39 ProMayaLiberal
The 2nd Amendment says "Well-Regulated Militia."
Time to well regulate who gets guns. Don't particularly care about what guns (aside from wanting their to be a limit to magazine size for guns with those. Esssentially, you have to use factory recommended ammo load.
Now, since I have departed from the the realm of American Pro-Gun to European Pro-Gun, what should my nic be now?
MuslimLiberal? Islamic Liberal? Something else entirely?
To be clear, many people in the US hand-load ammo and its a fairly harmless practice in and of itself.
53 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:19:42pm |
re: #47 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
Dear Ann,
History and statistics say otherwise. If that were true, we'd be the safest place on the planet.
Moron.
54 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:04pm |
re: #39 ProMayaLiberal
In addition, I'm not sure I see the reasoning for Concealed Carry. Does Concealed Carry reduce crime? I'm under the impression it doesn't.
Guns should be used hunting, sport, defense for home invasion, and when shit really hits the fan (Hello Katrina).
55 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:25pm |
re: #48 Vicious Michigan Union Thug
I may vomit.
I'd like to vomit on Ann Coulter. It's no less than she deserves.
56 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:20:53pm |
re: #53 Varek Raith
Dear Ann,
History and statistics say otherwise. If that were true, we'd be the safest place on the planet.
Moron.
"Attention Slug" would be more appropriate. Not necessarily being stupid, just slimy, spineless and constantly seeking to be in the center of the news.
57 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:15pm |
re: #52 Dark_Falcon
I think I should be more clear.
Let's say that a gun has a maximum clip size of 10 rounds. You should not be allowed to get one that does 15.
58 | leftynyc Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:45pm |
re: #47 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
Annie knows she screwed the pooch when he came out as not hating the gay....the audience for her books was not happy and all she's been doing since is trying to get them back to her side so she can continue to fleece them. She's slime.
59 | Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:21:54pm |
re: #55 Dark_Falcon
I'd like to vomit on Ann Coulter. It's no less than she deserves.
After seeing some of the things she writes, she damn-well might try to marry you if you did that to her.
60 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:22:46pm |
It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.
61 | Petero1818 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:23:02pm |
As I now understand it, he went to the school to kill his mother, a teacher there, and killed all those kids in her class too. I am having a very difficult time understanding how what was essentially a horrible domestic dispute led to this insanity.
62 | dr. luba Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:23:36pm |
A permissive gun regime is not the only reason that the United States suffers so many atrocities like the one in Connecticut. An inadequate mental health system is surely at least as important a part of the answer, as are half a dozen other factors arising from some of the deepest wellsprings of American culture.
Nor can anybody promise that more rational gun laws would prevent each and every mass murder in this country. Gun killings do occur even in countries that restrict guns with maximum severity.
But we can say that if the United States worked harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be many, many fewer atrocities like the one in Connecticut.
And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.
It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.
63 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:13pm |
re: #38 Targetpractice
Yep. The NRA, funded by "reasonable gun owners," is run by anti-gun control nuts who live in constant fear that if they don't keep people afraid of being branded "anti-gun," that another Brady Bill will appear on the horizon.
Heck, some paranoid soul over on FR was concerned that the President's statements were made in the "Brady Briefing Room". Um, isn't that pretty much where most of that sort of thing happens?
64 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:18pm |
re: #60 Charles Johnson
Today did finally find my breaking point on this. Time for regulations.
Did anyone have an answer the Concealed Carry question I had earlier.
65 | brennant Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:22pm |
It's a pretty shitty day when POTUS has to come on TV and cry. Fuck.
66 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:27pm |
re: #60 Charles Johnson
It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.
From Limbaugh's daily email (I tried 5 times to unsubscribe)
"A shooting at a school, and it's just awful. It is terrible, incomprehensible. But I'm gonna tell you something. As we sit here at this very moment, you know it and I know it. There are liberals trying to find a way to blame this on conservatives or Republicans." - Rush
and
Left Mobilizes to Politicize Connecticut Shooting
67 | Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:24:55pm |
re: #61 Petero1818
I mentioned it earlier in the last thread when we found out it was his mother: guy possibly thought his mother loved those children more than him, so he killed her out of jealousy/depression/madness and killed the children out of sheer spite.
68 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:05pm |
re: #60 Charles Johnson
It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.
And better mental health systems. And fight back against fetishiziation of vigilantism, revenge, and all that shit.
69 | Tigger2 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:20pm |
I'll tell ya when I think there will be gun control pushed, it will be if something like this ever happens at a exclusive boarding school and a bunch of millionaires and billionaires kids are killed, Politicians will be flocking to pass laws for the people that finance their campaigns.
70 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:36pm |
Various media continues to confirm that Adam Lanza was the killer and that police are interviewing his brother Ryan Lanza.
71 | William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:44pm |
re: #46 Sol Berdinowitz
It took a Republican Icon of a president getting shot to get as far as a Brady Bill, one which has been de-clawed successively ever since it was begrudgingly passed...
I fear that schoolkids will have to die by the busload before they can make any more progress
That only happened because Reagan was always pro-gun control. Especially of the "keep guns out of the hands of poor &/or minority people". He did more to advance gun control in the ban everything you possibly can sense than anyone else. And the masterpiece came after when they blamed it on the Democrats instead.
Another problem is that the Brady bunch is as dishonest as the NRA if not more so. Until there are responsible voices framing the debate on all sides nothing is going to happen any more than the Congress is going to raise taxes enough to fund the physical & mental health care system this nation desperately needs.
72 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:25:47pm |
re: #62 dr. luba
Good heavens! How did that little bit of sanity sneak out? Good for him.
74 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:31pm |
re: #47 Charles Johnson
How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?
On what planet does that make any sort of sense?
75 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:31pm |
I can accept the concept of guns for sport, hunting and self-defense, but who needs assault weapons for self-defense?
76 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:26:50pm |
re: #73 brennant
Rush can eat a bag of dicks. Ugh.
He and Coulter and Fischer should be locked in a room with a bunch of guns and no food.
77 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:27:14pm |
re: #57 ProMayaLiberal
I think I should be more clear.
Let's say that a gun has a maximum clip size of 10 rounds. You should not be allowed to get one that does 15.
Rather non-workable when there a number of firearms designed for magazines of multiple sizes for different purposes (the normal magazine for a Glock 17 is 17 rounds, not 10). But I'm going to stop on this topic before I slip up and get sandbagged.
78 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:00pm |
re: #69 Tigger2
I'll tell ya when there will be gun control pushed, it will be if something like this ever happens at a exclusive boarding school and a bunch of millionaires and billionaires kids are killed, Politicians will be flocking to pass laws for the people that finance their campaigns.
The victims of the Norway Killer (July '11) essentially fit your profile... not necessarily rich, but elite.
79 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:25pm |
re: #66 wrenchwench
From Limbaugh's daily email (I tried 5 times to unsubscribe)
Six times.
You have been successfully unsubscribed.
We shall see...
80 | Ghost of Tom Joad Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:30pm |
re: #64 ProMayaLiberal
Today did finally find my breaking point on this. Time for regulations.
Did anyone have an answer the Concealed Carry question I had earlier.
Vs. open carry? No idea. I would think with open carry people would be less likely to carry out a crime seeing that, plus lots of these folks are the power-projecting type who want folks to know they're armed.
Concealed just makes it easier to go around with a gun without people being overly suspicious. Also for the 'hero' types who don't want anybody seeing their gun so that they can shoot a criminal at any given moment.
Who knows. Dumb, angry, and well-armed is no way to go through life, son.
81 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:29:34pm |
82 | Tigger2 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:11pm |
re: #78 Capitalist Tool
The victims of the Norway Killer (July '11) essentially fit your profile... not necessarily rich, but elite.
That didn't happen here.
83 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:12pm |
re: #76 wrenchwench
He and Coulter and Fischer should be locked in a room with a bunch of guns and no food.
84 | freetoken Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:30:18pm |
As much as the gun nuts are against controlling the sale of weapons, they and most self declared conservatives are also against public funding of mental health care. Between the two - gun control and mental health care - I'd say the latter is even more desperately in need of a serious overhaul in our public policies and laws.
There are very many people out there who are very violent, have seriously unresolved relational issues, and many of whom likely also would qualify as being diagnosed with some kind of mental illness. And yet treatment options are too costly, or not even attempted because there is no one to make an intervention.
85 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:01pm |
re: #81 ProMayaLiberal
Personally, I would prefer a repeater, but I am imagining in a situation like Katrina or worse. Where society, as a result of a massive disaster, begins to break down.
And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.
87 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:36pm |
re: #78 Capitalist Tool
Norway had a sane response.
I would object to them being called elite. Some of those killed where refugees from the ravaged Middle East, and others immigrants from impoverished Africa and some Middle East Nations.
I would characterize those kids as involved activists who were going to work for a better world. And Norway has had no huge change from the disaster.
88 | Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:32:39pm |
re: #62 dr. luba
A permissive gun regime is not the only reason that the United States suffers so many atrocities like the one in Connecticut. An inadequate mental health system is surely at least as important a part of the answer, as are half a dozen other factors arising from some of the deepest wellsprings of American culture.
Nor can anybody promise that more rational gun laws would prevent each and every mass murder in this country. Gun killings do occur even in countries that restrict guns with maximum severity.
But we can say that if the United States worked harder to keep guns out of the hands of dangerous people, there would be many, many fewer atrocities like the one in Connecticut.
And I'll say: I'll accept no lectures about "sensitivity" on days of tragedy like today from people who work the other 364 days of the year against any attempt to prevent such tragedies.
It's bad enough to have a gun lobby. It's the last straw when that lobby also sets up itself as the civility police. It may not be politically possible to do anything about the prevalence of weapons of mass murder. But it damn well ought to be possible to complain about them - and about the people who condone them.
Spot on. I was debating with myself about whether to share something I heard from a gun cultist today but enough is enough.
The cultist said we don't need gun control, we need "nut control." Ignoring the crassness of the terminology, I pointed out that the Republicans have made that more difficult as well through their constant efforts to reduce mental health funding. Here in Texas, mental health has taken a series of big hits under Governor Perry's successive corporate welfare budgets. Plenty of guns and millions of disturbed people with nowhere to turn is a sure recipe for disaster.
89 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:02pm |
As horrible as this shooting is, I just heard someone from the Oakland, CA school system asked about how this was going to be dealt with in their schools. She mentioned councillors, etc. and then pointed out that their school system loses 20 school-aged children each year to gun violence. In fairness, that is presumably a larger group (it's a K-12 district) and probably includes a lot of gang violence so is generally not a school-related thing, but it is also only one city.
Could we just stop shooting our children and having them out there shooting one another? Please?
90 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:34pm |
re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz
Which is why we need a more stringent system for who has guns. It should be an involved process.
91 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:49pm |
re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz
And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.
If that were to happen, it'll look like Somalia just about anywhere. Major disasters are extreme cases, and the law really needs to be written with more ordinary concerns like home invasions and mentally ill people in mind.
92 | Decatur Deb Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:51pm |
There will be no significant limit on gun ownership until the Supreme Court reverses itself or a constitutional amendment is ratified. In other words, not in most of our lifetimes. You can't get there from here.
93 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:33:53pm |
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.
94 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:35:26pm |
re: #85 Sol Berdinowitz
And that is a scenario that still gives me the willies - pickups full of goombahs with assault weapons shooting everything that looks suspicious to them...if order does break down over large areas due to some natural/man-made catastrophe, it could start looking like Somalia.
Maybe not, if Sean Penn shows up and starts paddling around with his "gauge"... keep the situation well in hand.
95 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:36:23pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
It's not just the guns, it's also gun-culture. It's the kind of attitude that thinks saying "We came unarmed this time" is proper, or claims that the 2nd amendment is the one that safeguards the other ones. It's the fetishization of guns.
96 | The Ghost of a Flea Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:00pm |
re: #74 Lidane
How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?
More Guns, Less Crime, the sacred scripture of gun fetishists. And pretty much pseudoscience. Coincidentally, the study's author lost the data set in a fire, so no one can actually use his data set to test his conclusions. But even without the raw data, there's issues like pooling together crime data from inner cities and near-empty rural areas to get the "where there are more guns, there is less crime" numbers.
Also, the author creates econometric analyses for right-wing wing propaganda outfits to "prove" radical free market capitalism is what works best.
97 | lawhawk Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:19pm |
re: #57 ProMayaLiberal
Reasonable restrictions on max load for a clip or magazine sounds good, but easily circumvented - simply own more clips/magazines. It might take longer to reload, but a determined shooter will still do tremendous damage. It is a start though. And it could give someone a chance to overtake a gunman while they're reloading.
98 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:28pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
Exactly.
It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.
In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.
They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.
99 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:37:48pm |
It's not going to be a simple panacea fix. There are multiple facets that need to be addressed, it will not be keep, and we will be changing our cultural mores and operations. All of which guarantees that at least 35% of our population will have to be dragged kicking and screaming into it through a multi-year (more likely multi-decade) implementation.
The first step though is deciding to actually start discussing it rather than a quick volley of conflicting talking head statements followed by an immediate return to the status quo.
100 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:01pm |
CBS just showed Ryan Lanza being led in handcuffs, by police.
101 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:21pm |
re: #74 Lidane
How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?
On what planet does that make any sort of sense?
They obviously mean that guns should be in the hands of the "right" people, and we all know who they mean...
102 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:38:34pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
But I think depression often is a factor. That might be more easily treated than psychosis. The trouble with providing mental health care (aside from the fact that we don't seem interested in doing so) is that many mentally ill people don't think they have a problem. Everyone else does. I suspect most depressed people would like to not be depressed.
103 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:39:25pm |
re: #100 Capitalist Tool
CBS just showed Ryan Lanza being led in handcuffs, by police.
Hmm, if the shooter was 20 and could not legally acquire the guns what odds that they were acquired by the older brother?
104 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:40:15pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.
It won't work unless it's combined. That is combining mental health screening with gun registration. A great deal of mental illnesses are incurable and can only be managed. That would not stop people with serious mental illnesses from purchasing weapons.
105 | Dark_Falcon Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:41:47pm |
I'm going to head out now. Going to my parents' house for dinner.
106 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:42:01pm |
I want to know how the shooter got the guns. See, I hear a lot of flailing -- a lot of assumptions.
There's the mental health issue for example. To which I have to ask: if the weapons belonged to the shooter's parent what good do mental health restrictions for ownership make?
Quantity? One rifle and two pistols. We don't know anything yet about the weapon owners (whether the shooter or the shooter's parents or someone from whom he stole them). It may be that they could 'qualify' for the weapons as an amateur competition target shooter. (An AR-15 chambered in .223 isn't a hunting rifle. But it's good for competitions.)
You are not going to shut down weapon ownership. Given that fact, the limits you can emplace need to be effective -- which means dealing with family/friend use of the weapons.
107 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:42:45pm |
re: #91 Dark_Falcon
True, it is a rare, rare event.
Katrina was such a grave situation that NATO said this:
NATO was prepared to send troops, but the U.S. government has not issued a request for personnel.
Essentially, NATO said that the US could have declared an Article 5, and NATO would have intervened militarily.
It would have been classified as an attack on the United States. It likely would become a resurrection of the Military Districts from 128-140 years earlier.
108 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:44:28pm |
re: #107 ProMayaLiberal
True, it is a rare, rare event.
Katrina was such a grave situation that NATO said this:
Essentially, NATO said that the US could have declared an Article 5, and NATO would have intervened militarily.
It would have been classified as an attack on the United States. It likely would become a resurrection of the Military Districts from 128-140 years earlier.
I can just imagine all them dang drunk wahoo Cajuns converging on such an event.
109 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:03pm |
we have guns, and we have militias, but as for the well regulated part...well, that smacks of government regulation, doesn't it?
110 | dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:38pm |
re: #102 calochortus
But I think depression often is a factor. That might be more easily treated than psychosis. The trouble with providing mental health care (aside from the fact that we don't seem interested in doing so) is that many mentally ill people don't think they have a problem. Everyone else does. I suspect most depressed people would like to not be depressed.
I think social welfare and education are the decisive factors. Brazil has some gun control laws on the books but insane gun violence. Canada has guns everywhere but has fewer violent crimes.
111 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:45:59pm |
re: #108 Capitalist Tool
It certainly would have been a stretch on the NATO Charter. And that might have tweaked a few people.
However, it is a legitimate end-run around the Posse Comitatus Act.
112 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:46:52pm |
At 20 years old, Adam Lanza couldn't legally buy a glass of beer. But it was apparently legal for him to purchase this strikehold.net/wp-content/upl...— Ruben Bolling (@RubenBolling) December 14, 2012
113 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:47:29pm |
re: #109 Sol Berdinowitz
we have guns, and we have militias, but as for the well regulated part...well, that smacks of government regulation, doesn't it?
Don't you just love the selective constitutional literalism?
114 | Killgore Trout Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:48:02pm |
re: #98 researchok
Exactly.
It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.
In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.
They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.
I think it's even more broad cultural problem than just the gun culture. We are selfish, ego centric, thoughtless people. We spend much of our time and effort feeding our own needs and desires with little thought or care about how it effects others. I really think this kind of thing is the result or a lot of very deep cultural issues.
115 | Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:48:12pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.
True, the mass shooters are usually not psychotic, but there are many kinds of mental and emotional disturbance that are factors and that professional care and counseling can address. The shooters are often asocial, angry, and frustrated, and develop dangerous fantasies as a coping mechanism. I have to wonder how many potential massacres are prevented when disturbed, angry people do get help. There is no way to know but it would almost certainly be more with better access. This is a matter of life and death and I think it should be a big part of the debate that will inevitably follow this atrocity.
116 | Sol Berdinowitz Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:02pm |
re: #113 Gus
Don't you just love the selective constitutional literalism?
let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...
117 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:08pm |
re: #106 kirkspencer
I want to know how the shooter got the guns. See, I hear a lot of flailing -- a lot of assumptions.
There's the mental health issue for example. To which I have to ask: if the weapons belonged to the shooter's parent what good do mental health restrictions for ownership make?
Quantity? One rifle and two pistols. We don't know anything yet about the weapon owners (whether the shooter or the shooter's parents or someone from whom he stole them). It may be that they could 'qualify' for the weapons as an amateur competition target shooter. (An AR-15 chambered in .223 isn't a hunting rifle. But it's good for competitions.)
You are not going to shut down weapon ownership. Given that fact, the limits you can emplace need to be effective -- which means dealing with family/friend use of the weapons.
It's going to have to be more than registration and ownership. That's just one of the facets to address. And education is going to be key here - mandatory safety training of some sort. (Probably with purchase, but heck, why not work it into the public education in general around 6th or 7th grade?) And part of the education is getting an understanding that the gun is a tool to be respected and understood and thus start to dispel some of the mythology that revolves about it.
Beyond that is addressing what was referred to as "nut control". There needs to be systems in place to identify, *and help*, people with mental issues before they go overboard and decide to take their own lives - and unfortunately sometimes decide to take things out on others beforehand. Preventative actions about this are going to be cheaper in the long run (both culturally and economically) then keeping the same mindset and developing a fortress mentality about all the possible places a nut might decide to go off.
118 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:29pm |
The Onion sums it all up as usual:
Fuck Everything, Nation Reports
Following the fatal shooting this morning at a Connecticut elementary school that left at least 27 dead, including 20 small children, sources across the nation shook their heads, stifled a sob in their voices, and reported fuck everything. Just fuck it all to hell.
119 | Ian G. Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:30pm |
re: #98 researchok
Exactly.
It is more an issue of the gun culture than anything else.
In Israel and Switzerland for example, guns are found in virtually every home because of mandatory conscription and reserve duty. Nevertheless, we don't have these kinds of crimes there to any great degree.
They do not share our gun culture, the need for cowboy like vigilante justice and they don't tolerate an individual's fantasy as a 'right'.
This this this this this. Also, there's the paranoid streak in this country. Ask an Israeli to take a mandatory course in firearm safety and usage, and it's unlikely he'll consider it the first step in the UN coming to round up everyone and put them in detention centers where they'll be forcibly converted into gay atheist Muslims. A good portion of the American populace does believe that.
120 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:49:56pm |
re: #116 Sol Berdinowitz
let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...
And belong to a well regulated militia.
121 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:50:09pm |
re: #104 Gus
A great deal of mental illnesses are incurable and can only be managed. That would not stop people with serious mental illnesses from purchasing weapons
In fact, a very good argument could be made that is true of most mental illnesses.
122 | William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:50:17pm |
re: #116 Sol Berdinowitz
let's get literal: you can own guns if they are muzzle-loading muskets...
And you only have free press if it's a hand screw letter press.
Oh, wait...
123 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:03pm |
re: #120 Gus
And belong to a well regulated militia.
You have to eat lots of fiber in order to belong.
/
124 | DREd Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:07pm |
re: #74 Lidane
How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?
On what planet does that make any sort of sense?
Planet 'Murica. The same planet where lower tax rates = more revenue.
125 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:28pm |
re: #114 Killgore Trout
Affluence stunts shields all kinds of deficiencies.
126 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:51:32pm |
re: #112 Charles Johnson
CBS was reporting that a Bushmaster (.223/5.56 AR15 variant) was found in the killer's auto, not an AK .223 variant, as shown in link.
It's also been reported that he carried into the building and used a Glock 9mm pistol and a Sig 9mm pistol.
127 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:52:46pm |
Another bit from The Onion:
Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This
Following today’s mass shooting that left 20 young children dead at a Connecticut elementary school, numerous sources across the country reported that their government-protected right to own a portable device that propels small masses of metal through the air at lethal rates of speed is completely worth any such consequences.
128 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:53:47pm |
It's no coincidence these terrible massacres keep happening: is.gd/nBd0tn— Mark Follman (@markfollman) December 14, 2012
129 | Jaerik Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:53:53pm |
The increasing frequency and severity of gun-related massacres in the US is gradually changing the mind of this ordinarily libertarian, pro-gun individual.
I'm starting to think of it in a broader sense of simply... arms races don't work. They've never worked. They didn't even "work" between the US and Soviet Union. Sure we "won," but it collapsed the USSR and drove the US $6 trillion into debt. That isn't a desirable outcome among individuals if you want to create a competitive nation.
I simply don't want to spend a sizable chunk of my time, money, and effort fortifying my property and person from everybody else. And I don't want everyone else to fortify themselves against me. I want us to be engaging in actual, productive crap that enriches the economy and culture and makes us competitive on the world stage.
If you give everyone a handgun, the criminals will use assault rifles. If you give everyone assault rifles, the criminals will go buy RPGs. The arms race will not result in any increased safety for anyone involved. The only ones who will benefit are the arms dealers, laughing all the way to the bank.
130 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:03pm |
The other is issue is punishment.
Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.
131 | dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:17pm |
re: #117 Feline Fearless Leader
Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.
132 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:54:41pm |
re: #130 researchok
The other is issue is punishment.
Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.
No. Not punishment. Rehabilitation.
For a guy like this, there's no point to punishment. He's already killed. There is nothing that could be done to him that would any way revenge.
It's possible to rehabilitate him, not into a normal person, but someone who can attest to his crime and express remorse and help others avoid it.
That's really unlikely too.
But longer jail sentences are not going to be effective in curtailing gun crimes. At all.
133 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:55:17pm |
re: #115 Shiplord Kirel
Not only is it difficult to find (and pay for) appropriate mental health treatment, but many mental illnesses first manifest themselves in young adult-hood. By the time a family realizes there's a serious problem, the kid is 18 and they can't do anything about it. Yeah, they can call the police who will ask if they can show an imminent danger. If not, what can they do? If yes, that's, what? A 72 hour involuntary commitment. So, after that, what?
On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.
134 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:55:40pm |
135 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:56:18pm |
re: #134 researchok
Right.
Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.
Um. You said mandatory sentence, though. Don't move the goalposts.
136 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:56:42pm |
re: #134 researchok
Right.
Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.
Some people cannot be fixed.
No, but you were talking about penalizing all gun crimes with longer sentences as 'punishment'. Does not work.
137 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:57:29pm |
re: #134 researchok
Right.
Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.
Some people cannot be fixed.
And this guy also clearly wasn't stopped by any idea of punishment, right?
138 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:57:46pm |
re: #135 erik_t
Yes, I did.
And I stand by it. It won't stop all gun crime, obviously but if it stops some, then it has a value.
139 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:08pm |
re: #134 researchok
Right.
Like a guy who does this can be rehabilitated.
Some people cannot be fixed.
How do we know if we aren't even trying?
140 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:14pm |
re: #136 Obdicut
As noted above, I disagree.
141 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:34pm |
re: #139 dragonfire1981
We've tried rehabilitation for decades.
142 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:35pm |
re: #133 calochortus
On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.
That's what she said (LiLo).
143 | dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:35pm |
re: #127 Lidane
Another bit from The Onion:
Right To Own Handheld Device That Shoots Deadly Metal Pellets At High Speed Worth All Of This
Ogg says we need more flint point spears. Tribe will be safer.
144 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:52pm |
re: #131 dragonath
Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.
I referenced that in the earlier threads as a potential starting point. An afternoon course can cover a lot of the basics.
145 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:58:56pm |
re: #138 researchok
Yes, I did.
And I stand by it. It won't stop all gun crime, obviously but if it stops some, then it has a value.
Tying the hands of a judge and removing any sort of intelligent through from the process is a bad idea. It's always a bad idea.
146 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:02pm |
re: #140 researchok
As noted above, I disagree.
You think this guy, the guy who just killed 26 people, would have been deterred if he knew there was longer sentences for gun crimes?
Now that's magical thinking.
147 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:09pm |
re: #130 researchok
The other is issue is punishment.
Use of weapon (loaded, unloaded or facsimile) ought to mean a mandatory long term sentence.
Mandatory sentences are bad policy, unless you're talking about things like life sentences for capital crimes or the death penalty for treason or whatever. The drug war is a perfect example of how mandatory sentences fuck people over.
148 | Kid A Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:27pm |
Twenty dead kids, six dead adults, and all over TV and the web, people really want to discuss the Second Amendment right now. I don't think the families of the victims really give a flying fuck what anyone on any network thinks about it, quite frankly.
149 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 1:59:57pm |
re: #141 researchok
We've tried rehabilitation for decades.
No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.
The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.
150 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:00:26pm |
re: #137 Obdicut
No- his is an issue of mental health.
But some guy might think twice about using a weapon if there were mandatory sentences.
I believe that will be far more effective than stricter gun laws which criminals will circumvent, regardless.
151 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:00:32pm |
re: #141 researchok
We've tried rehabilitation for decades.
Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.
152 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:03pm |
re: #146 Obdicut
No, as I said his was an issue of mental health.
153 | Kid A Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:03pm |
The parents of those dead kids will never, ever get over this. Many will divorce because they can not deal with something this horrific. God damn that evil bastard. If there is indeed a hell, this fucker deserves a front-row seat.
154 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:05pm |
re: #149 Obdicut
No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.
The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.
THIS X 10 000.
155 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:09pm |
Meh. Americans won't do anything. Just like climate change and a whole slew of other problems. Their answer will be to pray.
156 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:13pm |
re: #143 dragonath
Ogg says we need more flint point spears. Tribe will be safer.
Kodos:
They constructed a board with a nail in it, but they won't stop there. They'll construct bigger boards with bigger nails, and then they'll construct a board with a nail in it so large, it will destroy them all...
157 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:14pm |
Police still not officially identifying the shooter... all else then is speculation/leaks?
158 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:36pm |
Suddenly I wonder what percentage of our prisons are privately owned...
159 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:01:47pm |
re: #148 Turkey Jihad
Twenty dead kids, six dead adults, and all over TV and the web, people really want to discuss the Second Amendment right now. I don't think the families of the victims really give a flying fuck what anyone on any network thinks about it, quite frankly.
Ever think that those of us lucky enough NOT to have lost a loved one today might want to do something ANYTHING to make sure we (or our loved ones) are not the victims next time?
160 | William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:18pm |
re: #149 Obdicut
No, we haven't. We make almost no attempt at rehabilitation. Our prisons are mostly prisoner training grounds, where the guards don't provide any safe space for inmates who actually want to improve.
The state of our prisons is shocking and terrible and a disgrace, and the idea that they're too rehabilitative is completely fucking bizarrely wrong.
Q. F. T.
"Corrections" doesn't exist. Throwing prisoners into hell is all that exists and it's no wonder they come out worse.
But like mental health care, real rehab costs too fucking much for those who whine about the too low taxes we pay in America.
161 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:19pm |
re: #151 erik_t
Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.
No lie. Every cop show on TV has to have the requisite male rape threat thrown in from time to time.
162 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:02:34pm |
re: #151 erik_t
Which may be an idicatin that rehabilitation does not work for some crimes.
Understand that if rehabilitation is to be successful, the culture has to be addressed.
Simply talking about behavior will get you nowhere.
163 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:06pm |
re: #152 researchok
No, as I said his was an issue of mental health.
We have no idea if this guy was crazy or not. And your suggestion of punishment clearly wouldn't deter him in the least. And your idea that our prisons actually put forth much effort into rehabilitation is nonsense.
164 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:08pm |
re: #151 erik_t
That does need to be fixed. I would state however that there a group of criminals who cannot be rehabilitated, and must get life in prison.
These groups are non-self-defense Murders, Rape, and Human Trafficking.
165 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:03:16pm |
re: #141 researchok
We've tried rehabilitation for decades.
Fascinating factoid. Here in CA we're busy saving the state money by sending prisoners from state prisons to local jails. Aside from the fact that this merely shifts costs and doesn't actually save real money, jails have absolutely no programs to prepare prisoners for anything after they finish their sentences.
166 | gwangung Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:04:02pm |
re: #151 erik_t
Bull poopie we have. I don't see how any reasonable person can consider our justice system, about which the bulk of the country makes rape jokes, rehabilitation-focused.
We've GUTTED any attempt at rehabilitations because we were being "too soft" on prisoners.
167 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:04:02pm |
re: #149 Obdicut
Your kidding, right?
You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?
168 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:07pm |
re: #167 researchok
I would agree with him, what with the Private Prison industry.
The current justice system isn't working.
169 | gwangung Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:13pm |
re: #167 researchok
Your kidding, right?
You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?
You can point to major rehabilitation programs now going in in prison systems, then?
170 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:23pm |
I think a strong focus on "pre-emptive rehabilitation" i.e. stronger mental health services is an excellent and overdue idea.
171 | _RememberTonyC Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:24pm |
This is pure evil ... Our state is in shock. Prayers to all families of the victims.
172 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:27pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
Right.
He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/
I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.
173 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:57pm |
re: #167 researchok
Your kidding, right?
You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?
Nope. We have pretty much given up on rehabilitation. Both in the way people talk about prison as being a punishment, and in the way that we run our prisons.
We don't actually do what works, because we're way, way, way too invested in the idea of punishing inmates. As a result, the prisons are basically training grounds for new prisoners, mostly run by the gangs inside them.
174 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:05:58pm |
re: #168 ProMayaLiberal
I would agree. However that is a separate issue.
175 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:01pm |
Any rehabilitation that occurs in the US prison system is incidental to the punishment. No person with a clue could possibly say that the other way around.
176 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:30pm |
Ammunition: share please twitpic.com/blzgxg— Brasilmagic (@Brasilmagic) December 14, 2012
177 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:06:42pm |
re: #167 researchok
Your kidding, right?
You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?
I can't speak for Obdi, but that is certainly what I would say. Care to take a peak at recidivism rates?
178 | Feline Fearless Leader Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:23pm |
re: #163 Obdicut
We have no idea if this guy was crazy or not. And your suggestion of punishment clearly wouldn't deter him in the least. And your idea that our prisons actually put forth much effort into rehabilitation is nonsense.
I would be pretty certain the shooter was unhinged in some way. I can't think of even a cold-blooded logical reason for someone to shoot twenty children under these conditions. He may have wanted to murder his mother, and some collateral damage* occurs, but this is well beyond that.
Arguably, he could have snapped into some sort of killing frenzy while there, but still the initial going there armed to the teeth is implying an unstable mental state at the time.
* - Poor choice of words for twenty plus innocent children and adults being shot. I apologize in advance to any believing I am trivializing the loss of life.
179 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:54pm |
re: #131 dragonath
Pretty much every state has a hunter safety course. It wouldn't be much of a stretch to apply that to guns in general. Many states do.
Agreed.
Lifelong hunter, but still took a hunter safety course a couple of years and would highly recommend it to anyone. A similar class for new gun purchasers (perhaps grandfathered for old guys like me) might have some benefit.
One doesn't presently need to demonstrate any sort of competence, experience or attitude to purchase a gun.
180 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:07:55pm |
re: #172 researchok
Right.
He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.
Hate to break this to you but...
Perfectly sane and mentally healthy people are fully capable of committing evil acts.
181 | Ian G. Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:08:27pm |
re: #155 Gus
Meh. Americans won't do anything. Just like climate change and a whole slew of other problems. Their answer will be to pray.
You never know. Racial segregation was ingrained in America until one day it wasn't. Persecution of gays was normal until one day it wasn't. I'm not saying that getting Americans to put down the gun, or to deal with climate change will be easy, but there tends to be a tipping point to these kinds of things.
I guess I have to be optimistic about this because I want to have kids some day, and I'd like them to a) not be massacred in school, and b) have a planet suitable for human civilization in their old age.
182 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:08:51pm |
183 | jc717 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:21pm |
According to a link from Drudge, the older brother says that the shooter had a personality disorder and may have been autistic.
4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
184 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:47pm |
re: #173 Obdicut
OK.
There have been rehabilitation efforts in prisons for decades, with mixed- mostly failed results.
185 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:50pm |
Courtesy of FR:
To: raccoonradio
I bet this kid was on anti depressants, and quit taking them. I’m also wondering if he was a homosexual.
63 posted on Fri Dec 14 13:46:11 2012 by pallis
I give up.
186 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:09:58pm |
re: #183 jc717
Like I care what's on Drudge.
187 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:03pm |
re: #117 Feline Fearless Leader
You missed my point. What about family members who might have access? What about mental problems that develop later?
Run you a simple example. Take a neighbor who is a VietNam vet. He's in early stage Alzheimer's. So we've got a twofer, both reliving a really nasty time AND in a disease that during some of its stages includes random acts of violence. Wanna know how happy I am that another neighbor's parents were Vietnamese refugees?
And we cannot legally get his weapons under restriction. There are people who can but they won't, yet.
188 | dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:06pm |
If America were to embrace rehabilitation, and 1% of the people coming out of the system became functional members of society, that's about a billion times better than the status quo.
Isn't safety worth investing in? It's a problem the US always seems to run up against. The same argument could be made about public health and global warming.
189 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:29pm |
re: #180 Varek Raith
Yes- but he wasn't one of them.
190 | Romantic Heretic Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:35pm |
I don't know if this has been posted yet, but watch it. Especially what the forensic psychiatrist has to say at the end. Specifically, stop making this shit news! Stop the 24/7 coverage. Stop opening any video with sirens! Stop showing the killer's face! And stop making anti-heroes of these assholes.
191 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:37pm |
re: #167 researchok
Your kidding, right?
You're saying rehabilitation has not been aq significant part of the the justice system for decades?
The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.
192 | JAFO Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:46pm |
re: #172 researchok
Right.
He was a healthy, well adjusted individual.
/I can assure you we wilol learn he has been marginal for a very long time.
Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.
from ABC
193 | dragonath Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:10:59pm |
re: #183 jc717
According to a link from Drudge, the older brother says that the shooter had a personality disorder and may have been autistic.
4:52 p.m: Ryan Lanza, 24, brother of gunman Adam Lanza, 20, tells authorities that his younger brother is autistic, or has Asperger syndrome and a “personality disorder.” Neighbors described the younger man to ABC as “odd” and displaying characteristics associated with obsessive-compulsive disorder.
[Link: abcnews.go.com...]
That's a shitty fucking excuse.
194 | gwangung Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:13pm |
re: #179 Capitalist Tool
Agreed.
Lifelong hunter, but still took a hunter safety course a couple of years and would highly recommend it to anyone. A similar class for new gun purchasers (perhaps grandfathered for old guys like me) might have some benefit.
One doesn't presently need to demonstrate any sort of competence, experience or attitude to purchase a gun.
I certainly have no problem with this. Gun safety is not only common sense, but seems to me entirely constitutional, even for the most strident NRA folks.
195 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:15pm |
re: #178 Feline Fearless Leader
I would be pretty certain the shooter was unhinged in some way. I can't think of even a cold-blooded logical reason for someone to shoot twenty children under these conditions. He may have wanted to murder his mother, and some collateral damage* occurs, but this is well beyond that.
I think that there are people who sanely and rationally make choices that are evil. And it doesn't have to be 'cold-blooded'. You can be angry and seeking vengeance and to hurt others without being crazy.
He may very well be mentally ill in some way. But I really hate the idea that everyone who mass-murders or commits enough crimes is necessarily crazy. The whole nation of Rwanda, for example, did not all go fucking crazy. People can make evil choices.
196 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:16pm |
197 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:25pm |
re: #191 Lidane
The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.
If only there were some European example of a different approach that we might consider...
198 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:11:51pm |
re: #184 researchok
OK.
There have been rehabilitation efforts in prisons for decades, with mixed- mostly failed results.
There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".
199 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:02pm |
re: #181 Ian G.
You never know. Racial segregation was ingrained in America until one day it wasn't. Persecution of gays was normal until one day it wasn't. I'm not saying that getting Americans to put down the gun, or to deal with climate change will be easy, but there tends to be a tipping point to these kinds of things.
I guess I have to be optimistic about this because I want to have kids some day, and I'd like them to a) not be massacred in school, and b) have a planet suitable for human civilization in their old age.
I've seen this happen before. There may be a heightened state of awareness but then soon after 24 hours it's business as usual. The gun rights advocates will continue to portray their HOBBY as some kind of physical appendage of theirs.
200 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:21pm |
When I got my first weapon, I'd never fired a gun before in my life (having spent most of it in Canada).
201 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:12:47pm |
re: #191 Lidane
That is true.
Rehabilitation has failed despite decades of trying. There are still legion so fprison psychiatrusts, psychologists, counselors, etc.
As a result, the public has demanded more punitive measures.
202 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:09pm |
203 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:14pm |
re: #193 dragonath
That's a shitty fucking excuse.
It's no excuse at all. The vast majority of autists and people with aspergers are non-violent.
204 | Romantic Heretic Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:25pm |
re: #191 Lidane
The recidivism rate in this country would suggest that our attempts at rehabilitation are pathetic at best.
A favourite book of mine is the autobiography of a Mob hitman. In the acknowledgments at the end he thanks the U.S. penal system for turning out more and better criminals than any school system the Mob could set up.
205 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:48pm |
re: #198 Obdicut
There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".
Not to mention the fact that the for-profit prison industry stands to lose MILLIONS should effective rehabilitation be put into place.
206 | Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:53pm |
re: #133 calochortus
Not only is it difficult to find (and pay for) appropriate mental health treatment, but many mental illnesses first manifest themselves in young adult-hood. By the time a family realizes there's a serious problem, the kid is 18 and they can't do anything about it. Yeah, they can call the police who will ask if they can show an imminent danger. If not, what can they do? If yes, that's, what? A 72 hour involuntary commitment. So, after that, what?
On the other hand, you can't just lock up everyone who is "different" indefinitely.
A few points:
Care would not be so difficult to find and pay for if it were better funded. Many families do not intervene because they are unconcerned and dysfunctional, which is part of the shooter's problem in the first place. Even then, we have seen some recent cases in which family intervention probably did prevent a massacre. The concept of someone being enough of an imminent danger to warrant involuntary confinement is probably not applicable in most of these cases, however. It would seem to apply more to manifest psychosis, something we rarely see in the mass shooters. I was thinking instead about the kind of neurosis, anger, and violent fantasy we do see in these people, and the possibility that they would voluntarily seek help if it is made available. That is not as unlikely as it seems. As pointed out, they are not psychotic, they have to realize at some point that their ideations may be dangerous and wrong. Indeed, many shooters seem to go through a period of internal debate and doubt before making the commitment to acting on their violent impulses.
207 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:53pm |
re: #201 researchok
That is true.
Rehabilitation has failed despite decades of trying. There are still legion so fprison psychiatrusts, psychologists, counselors, etc.
As a result, the public has demanded more punitive measures.
Saying the US prison system has repudiated the idea of rehabilitation is like saying a human being can't push a car after trying with one finger.
208 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:56pm |
re: #202 researchok
I'd bet on it.
A big bet.
Like you do with DDT?
You'll forgive me for taking your posts with a grain of salt, no?
;)
209 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:13:56pm |
re: #203 Obdicut
It's no excuse at all. The vast majority of autists and people with aspergers are non-violent.
Probably misdiagnosed if diagnosed at all.
210 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:02pm |
If he had a mental disorder, I wonder what if any treatment he'd ever been given for it.
211 | Skip Intro Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:34pm |
re: #74 Lidane
How the fuck does more guns = less shootings?
On what planet does that make any sort of sense?
Planet NRA. Wayne LaPierre will be on Fox shortly to explain how that works.
212 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:14:44pm |
re: #205 bratwurst
Not to mention the fact that the for-profit prison industry stands to lose MILLIONS should effective rehabilitation be put into place.
DING DING DING!! Follow the money.
There really are some sectors that should NOT BE for profit. Utilities, Health care and Prisons are great examples.
213 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:15:24pm |
re: #197 erik_t
Within two years a fifth of all released from prison and among those who began serving a sentence in the community in Norway incurred a new conviction that had to be served in the correctional services. In the other Nordic countries the overall re-offending rate varies from 24 % to 31 %
214 | danarchy Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:05pm |
re: #194 gwangung
I certainly have no problem with this. Gun safety is not only common sense, but seems to me entirely constitutional, even for the most strident NRA folks.
In massachusetts you are already required to complete either a Gun safety course or a Basic hunter education course. Been that way for over a decade and to the best of my knowledge nobody has even bothered to challenge it in court.
215 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:09pm |
re: #198 Obdicut
There have been weak, milksop attempts at rehabilitation that have mostly been crippled by idiots shouting "punishment".
(caveat: I worked in prisons for a few years. I can speak with some authority about the Colorado and Federal system)
This. Because the first priority, according to the justice system as ordered by congress and the few state legislatures I've read, is to punish the guilty.
Stop and think about it. Not rehabilitate. Not make everyone safer over the long run. Punish the guilty.
Pell grants for inmates? Remember those and the outrages they created? Never mind that the recidivism rates showed they were extremely effective, they got cut and cut and cut. And that's just one example.
We do not do rehabilitation. We do imprisonment - punishment. In the gaps we do some rehab.
216 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:16:18pm |
re: #203 Obdicut
In fact, they are less likely to be a danger to anyone but themselves.
217 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:17:16pm |
re: #207 erik_t
But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts
218 | Varek Raith Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:17:44pm |
The entire Drug War is based on tough punishment.
How'd that work out?
Oh, yeah, it didn't at all.
In fact, I'd wager it made things worse.
219 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:11pm |
Pure 100% wingnut-grade fingers-in-ears magical thinking. I'm done with this one.
220 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:37pm |
re: #212 dragonfire1981
DING DING DING!! Follow the money.
There really are some sectors that should NOT BE for profit. Utilities, Health care and Prisons are great examples.
It's not just the private prison complex, though. It is also the government prison complex. In California-- and I am a totally pro union guy in general-- the prison guards and other corrections unions have stood in the way of a fuckload of progress. They have fought for the three strikes law, against decriminalizing marijuana, and against rehabilitation and drug-diversion programs.
We cannot blame this entirely on the profit motive. It is also that prosecutors are basically immune to lawsuits or punishment for even the mostly obviously out of control investigations, it's that we have police labs corrupting evidence all over the nation, and that being a prosecutor is a stepping-stone to other political positions.
Nobody wants to be the guy who is vulnerable to the idiots calling for more punishment and saying that rehabilitation can't work. It's incredibly difficult to pull that one off politically. Obama hasn't even gotten near to touching it, you'll notice, despite his confronting other high-importance items.
221 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:18:42pm |
222 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:00pm |
re: #218 Varek Raith
The entire Drug War is based on tough punishment.
How'd that work out?
Oh, yeah, it didn't at all.
In fact, I'd wager it made things worse.
A lot of people in Mexico hold and express that sentiment.
223 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:02pm |
Now he's done it!
Only way forward for America is a national gun policy, same (much tougher) laws for everyone. No assault weapons for civilians, period.— Piers Morgan (@piersmorgan) December 14, 2012
224 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:20:21pm |
re: #213 researchok
In contrast to Norway's 24-31%:
67.5% of prisoners released in 1994 were rearrested within 3 years, an increase over the 62.5% found for those released in 1983 -- [Link: bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov...]
So we who don't do rehab have twice the recidivism rate.
225 | dragonfire1981 Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:07pm |
226 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:08pm |
re: #201 researchok
Here's the problem with your theory-- we've never really tried to rehabilitate anyone. That's why our recidivism rate is so high.
When prisons exist for profit and strictly as a way for people to feel like they're "tough on crime", rehabilitation is the last thing that is ever budgeted for or even considered.
227 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:08pm |
All future U.S. gun applications should include mandatory safety/training courses, minimum 3 references, detailed vetting over 6-8 weeks.— Piers Morgan (@piersmorgan) December 14, 2012
228 | calochortus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:21:20pm |
re: #206 Shiplord Kirel
I don't really disagree with anything you've said-my point was that we don't as a society invest in this sort of healthcare. I've known 2 families with mentally ill young adults. It is very difficult for them to deal with their situations because we do lack resources for them to turn to. The sons don't want medical help, and in one case the young man has been in and out of jail for petty offenses, the family lives in a rural area and is ashamed of having a mentally ill son. It is unlikely that either of these young men will turn violent, but it is not impossible. We need to move into the modern world on the mental health front.
229 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:22:59pm |
re: #217 researchok
But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts
huge efforts ≠ intelligent or effective efforts
230 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:16pm |
re: #224 kirkspencer
And the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours.
231 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:25pm |
Breitbrat says:
Be nice to come together as a nation and mourn, but the left just won't allow it -- not even for a few days.— John Nolte(@NolteNC) December 14, 2012
It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?
This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.
232 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:44pm |
re: #229 bratwurst
On that I absolutely agree
233 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:23:45pm |
re: #225 dragonfire1981
Cue calls to deport him back to England...
I actually agree with his tweet there, but would still strongly support his deportation anyway! /
234 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:24:34pm |
re: #227 Gus
I don't know how I feel about the references or the 6-8 week vetting process, but yeah. I'm all for mandatory training and safety classes.
If we have to take classes to learn the rules and spend documented time as student drivers before we're allowed to get a driver's license, why not do the same for guns?
235 | Destro Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:25:01pm |
re: #18 Sol Berdinowitz
I have four kids between 6 - 14 years old. But we are here in godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western Europe, so I am not as scared for their safety as I would be if we were living in God's own Country, the Land of Bryan Fischer and the Covenant with The Lord.
My godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western European wife wanted to raise our kids there and I was like no, we should enroll them in American public schools like I went to.
I just lost that argument.
236 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:26:25pm |
re: #231 Charles Johnson
Breitbrat says:
[Embedded content]
It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?
This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.
I didn't realize Bryan Fucking Fischer was part of the left, now.
237 | Charles Johnson Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:26:36pm |
Mike Huckabee on Fox News: Schools "become a place of carnage" when "we systematically remove God" mm4a.org/12qfI7N— Media Matters (@mmfa) December 14, 2012
238 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:02pm |
Gulp.
Dawn Hochsprung
@DHochsprung
Principal, Sandy Hook School
Newtown, CT
239 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:16pm |
re: #230 researchok
And the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours.
Link?
241 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:28:54pm |
re: #222 Capitalist Tool
A lot of people in Mexico hold and express that sentiment.
The problem in Mexico is almost complete impunity, not tough punishment. Something like 2% of crimes are prosecuted.
242 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:29:34pm |
re: #217 researchok
But that is not the case- huge efforts were put into rehabilitation efforts
No.
ugh, this really needs a page and I don't have time.
A lot of money went into rehab after the big prison riots of the 1960s. And things did get better - we did see improved recidivism rates. (We also saw improvements in prison violence rates, but that's not the current subject.) However, that rehab was a first splurge. It was a trial that didn't get full expansion. It also did not grow at the same rates as prison populations grew. Starting in the 1970s and the "tough on crime/liberals coddling prisoners" political games the moneys put into rehab actually declined.
The worst, as already noted, was that there were various programs run as trials that showed great returns. But because they put rehab above imprisonment (and they moved where money went, and they weren't 'tough on crime') they didn't get expanded.
They were huge efforts when considered in isolation. When considered next to what was needed they were a pittance -- and they were not continued.
243 | Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:30:00pm |
re: #237 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
We can call this the Fischer meme. These people seem to have no idea how insanely callous they sound. They are demented, and we are seeing their depraved superstition carried to its logical conclusion. May they rot in hell.
244 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:30:37pm |
Sandy Hook kinders write lists, select grocery items, and pay the cashier at Mrs. Vollmer's new Supermarket Center! twitter.com/DHochsprung/st...— Dawn Hochsprung (@DHochsprung) December 10, 2012
245 | Skip Intro Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:17pm |
246 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:24pm |
re: #244 Gus
Oh damn. That did it. Goddamn. Those poor kids.
247 | Ian G. Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:30pm |
re: #237 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
I really have no patience for this shit right now. It reeks of smug "told-ya-so" glee, that dead 6-year-olds is the logical price to pay for not opening the day with the worship of Allah Buddha Krishna Baal Thor Zeus Osiris Pachamama God.
248 | erik_t Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:31:39pm |
re: #244 Gus
Please at least make this a link. I don't want to see this.
249 | danarchy Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:32:07pm |
re: #235 Destro
My godless, socialistic, morally bankrupt Western European wife wanted to raise our kids there and I was like no, we should enroll them in American public schools like I went to.
I just lost that argument.
As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.
250 | Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:32:22pm |
re: #231 Charles Johnson
Breitbrat says:
[Embedded content]
It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?
This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.
John, kindly go fornicate with your self.
251 | jaunte Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:33:19pm |
re: #237 Charles Johnson
Erick Erickson's on the same page as Huckabee.
252 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:12pm |
Hours after Connecticut kindergarten shooting, Michigan GOP calls for allowing guns in schools thkpr.gs/UYhj2o— ThinkProgress (@thinkprogress) December 14, 2012
253 | engineer cat Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:32pm |
Be nice to come together as a nation and
not waiting for anybody to say anything before he pushes away the feelings of guilt
254 | EPR-radar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:34:43pm |
re: #60 Charles Johnson
It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.
Agreed. Not to mention that these tragedies are happening at such a rate that if we can't talk about addressing gun/gun nut culture in the US shortly after a mass shooting, there will never be an opportunity to do so.
256 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:35:41pm |
Anyone see a pttern here? 2012 movie posters @monaeltahawy @unclerush twitter.com/thestevedunn/s...— Steven Dunn (@thestevedunn) December 14, 2012
257 | ProMayaLiberal Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:36:03pm |
re: #239 bratwurst
I can say right now that is BS.
258 | Pawn of the Oppressor Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:36:53pm |
Man, I feel sick. Killin' fckin' kids? Seriously?
re: #227 Gus
[Embedded content]
Sounds lovely. Who does the training? Who does the vetting? A national board that certifies you as Not Crazy? By what criteria? What happens when two "references" have nothing to say but the third thinks you're nuts? What is an "assault weapon" really? (We've been down that road with "evil features" on semi-autos and it doesn't change anything, and don't we really mean firepower limits, i.e. magazine restrictions, anyway?)
I'm not trying to be combative - personally at this point I'm ready to support limits on ownership of these kinds of things - but do I really trust Americans as a whole (or rather, their Representatives in Congress) to get all that right?
My thought was that the NICS ought to flag you if you've ever had a mental health referral from any educational institution; that would have put a stop to at least a couple of the college shooters.
259 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:11pm |
If your response to calls for gun control is "Should we get rid of cars too?" the answer is, for you, yes. You should not have a gun or car.— rob delaney (@robdelaney) December 14, 2012
260 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:14pm |
re: #239 bratwurst
I'll have to find that.
I t was some paper that also discussed how recidivism was calculated.
I dio recall there was some contention in the methodology used, in part for political reasons (lower is better, etc)
261 | Pawn of the Oppressor Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:37:39pm |
re: #237 Charles Johnson
[Embedded content]
That didn't take long at all.
Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?
262 | Gus Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:38:12pm |
You shouldn't run away from reality. It's supposed to hurt. It's interesting that Americans don't want to see the end result of violence or the victims yet are willing to pay to see people be slaughtered on the big screen.
263 | Mattand Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:38:33pm |
Next shithead who tells me guns don't kill, people do, gets 26 punches in the face. #CTshootings #GunControlNow #kids— mattand (@mattand) December 14, 2012
264 | Targetpractice Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:13pm |
re: #252 Lidane
[Embedded content]
Because really, what I want is a teacher who, instead of trying to get her students out of the room, decides to hunker down and hope that her nerves are steely enough to survive a shoot out with the bad guys.
265 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:35pm |
re: #242 kirkspencer
Yes, what you say is true but it also highlights the other factors that influence prison sentences, replenishment and rehabilitation efforts.
The whole conversation cannot be reduced to singular numbers because there are so many factors which influence recidivism, not thge least of which are political factors.
266 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:49pm |
re: #241 wrenchwench
The problem in Mexico is almost complete impunity, not tough punishment. Something like 2% of crimes are prosecuted.
I've watched a couple of films this past year where a number of Mexicans were saying that the reason the cartels are killing so many people is because Vicente Fox has been trying so hard to catch them.
You see, it's the govt's fault.
267 | Lidane Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:52pm |
re: #261 Pawn of the Oppressor
Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able?
Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing?
Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing?
Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing?
Then why call him God?--Epicurius
268 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:39:53pm |
re: #260 researchok
I'll have to find that.
Please do. Once I see it, I will offer a full apology for accusing you of pulling it out of your rectum as I am doing right now.
269 | Mattand Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:24pm |
270 | Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:34pm |
271 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:37pm |
272 | Shiplord Kirel Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:40:57pm |
re: #245 Skip Intro
Events like this make me wish there was such a place.
For the record I don't really believe there is such a place (I'm a Unitarian), though Fischer and his ilk would certainly belong there if there were. I really don't think he and the other fundy quacks believe it either. They wouldn't risk the judgement that is sure to come if they did. It is simply a way to terrorize the gullible into parting with their money and conforming to the behaviors and attitudes the glib charlatans set for them.
273 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:03pm |
re: #266 Capitalist Tool
I've watched a couple of films this past year where a number of Mexicans were saying that the reason the cartels are killing so many people is because Vicente Fox has been trying so hard to catch them.
You see, it's the govt's fault.
Fox was the president 6 years ago. Before Calderon launched the war on the cartels.
274 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:23pm |
Yes, cars kill people too. But few would advocate for getting rid of traffic lights and crosswalks in the name of freedom.— Greg Sargent (@ThePlumLineGS) December 14, 2012
275 | watching you tiny alien kittens are Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:32pm |
re: #231 Charles Johnson
Breitbrat says:
[Embedded content]
It would be "nice" to mourn? Who the fuck thinks it's "nice" to be in mourning?
This is how the wingnuts work themselves up - now watch as Nolte mounts a ferocious spin attempt to promote guns.
The wingnuts have a very strange idea of "mourning" apparently...
The fact that this happen to ban guns is the lest of our worries. THEY ARE KILLING OUR KIDS in order to push their NWO. That should be enough for us to march.
Was this event making up for the failed massacre at the Oregon mall?
Failed as in not enough people died to make a difference. They are coming for your guns! These cowards will target children as a last resort... they are desperate to get your guns.
It's for when the money system collapses... they don't want starving and pissed off American's running around with guns.
They are coming soon...
Obama crying. Stopped talking for about 10 seconds as he wipes away tears.
But his eyes are wet! Not at all. His eyes aren't red or wet.
He just wiped his other eye. There was nothing there!
He is FOS!!!! Fake crier. Sick!!!!!
He's fucking ACTING. What an asshole!!!At this point I'm convinced he's inhuman.
He wiped away at least 8 FAKE, non-existent tears from both eyes. I saw it myself, close-up. Not a single drop of moisture on his eyes. They'll have to video-edit those in later.He faked that beautifully. Trust me, he could care less.
276 | Pawn of the Oppressor Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:47pm |
re: #249 danarchy
As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.
We have what, 350 million people in the U.S.? It's probably a miracle of statistics that this kind of thing doesn't happen more often. And I can't help but think of the terrible stuff that happens to kids elsewhere (child soldiers come to mind).
These days I'd gladly pay more taxes to have our streets guarded Israeli-style. I would happily exchange some of my liberty for a little safety if it meant not having to read about kids being murdered at school.
277 | Our Precious Bodily Fluids Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:41:47pm |
re: #256 Gus
[Embedded content]
Related commentary, from the time of the VT shootings:
If you want to really understand why he did it that way, you have to find out what article of media he was imitating. Take the photos, the manifesto, and google it until you find the movie the handguns came from; the book (or comic book) the manifesto came from. He didn't come up with this stuff on his own, he is imitating something. For Klebold and Harris it was the Matrix and Doom. What movie is he imitating? Find it.
Because it isn't about mental illness, or genetics. It's about identity, it's always about identity, and sometimes the identity you choose doesn't work out that well. So, emergently, you grab an identity which has appeared to work-- you imitate a movie, a game, a comic.
I'm not saying movies made him do it; I'm saying he was looking for an excuse to do it, and he went through the usual catalog: movies, comics, games. Come hell or high water, he was going to kill someone. But in terms of prediction, the operative question is, if this guy goes homicidal, how will he do it? He didn't strap explosives to his chest, not because it wasn't available, but because it didn't match the identity he wanted to have-- that he got from a TV show or movie.
Ismael Ax, handgun to the head, hammer cocked like a bat to the right, knife to the neck-- all those stills from his video clips you see on CNN aren't random, they're a specific imitation of something else. Find the thing he was imitating, and you have found him.
Because he didn't exist, that's the problem. He picked an identity, and no one liked it, it backfired- no chicks-- so he moved to plan B: pick an identity that absolves him of the guilt of shooting 30 people.
278 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:34pm |
re: #271 researchok
Hmmm.
Have you known me to do that?
I saw you pull facts from your anal cavity on the topic of DDT now that you mention it, yes.
279 | Destro Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:48pm |
re: #249 danarchy
As horrific and gut wrenching as this is, there are over 50 million children in american schools. They still tend to be pretty safe places over all.
I grew up in a tough ghetto school in NYC (Queensbridge projects). I was able to graduate and go to a higher university and learn a few languages and now work all over the world. I am in NYC for 3 to 6 months at a time. It seems my children will not follow me here when they enroll in schools as I wanted them too.
I have become a stranger to the land that bred me and incidents like today happen and I get alienated even more.
With that said, and all my upfront seemingly apparent hostility to the USA, this is the land that fed me, educated me and allowed me to go to college all via the public's taxes supporting me.
I think I am crying right now. I will stop. I am fucked up right now beyond belief. I have relatives in that area of the shootings. I don't understand any of this any more.......
280 | Capitalist Tool Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:42:48pm |
re: #258 Pawn of the Oppressor
It's those evil bayonet lugs and flash/recoil suppressors... get rid of those and that will put an end to it, did the first time around- or maybe I'm remembering that wrong, too.
281 | Kragar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:06pm |
Huckabee and Fischer long for the good ole days when God was in the schools and you could kill minorities, homosexuals, and other undesirables and it wasn't a big deal.
282 | Mattand Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:43:15pm |
re: #261 Pawn of the Oppressor
That didn't take long at all.
Where was this god when all this mayhem was being planned?
How anyone can seriously believe that any sort of god exists after this carnage really, really needs to get their reality detector fixed. ASAP.
284 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:44:37pm |
re: #268 bratwurst
One more thing recidivism rates are also influencved by the imprisonment of mentally ill persons.
There is a higher rate of incarceration for mentally ill patients here thna in most other places. Given they are more likely to re-offend the recidivism rates are impacted accordingly.
285 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:44:51pm |
286 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:45:40pm |
re: #284 researchok
One more thing recidivism rates are also influencved by the imprisonment of mentally ill persons.
There is a higher rate of incarceration for mentally ill patients here thna in most other places. Given they are more likely to re-offend the recidivism rates are impacted accordingly.
Let me know when you can back up your previous claim and I will apologize. Thanks.
287 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:46:09pm |
re: #278 bratwurst
Really?
Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.
So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,
288 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:07pm |
re: #287 researchok
Really?
Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.
So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,
You cited discredited sources. Thanks again for getting back to me when you can back up what you claim in this thread.
289 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:12pm |
re: #285 wrenchwench
That's not the same thing as saying I fabricated something.
And if they were questionable sources it was not done intentionally.
290 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:47:51pm |
re: #287 researchok
Really?
Be specific. I cited references from others but not my own.
So let's be honest, shall we- since you are talking about pulling shit out of asses. As you just did,
You once cited Harvard and it turned out to be Readers' Digest. That was on DDT.
291 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:48:46pm |
re: #288 bratwurst
Bullshit
You accused me of making stuff up.
I saw you pull facts from your anal cavity on the topic of DDT now that you mention it, yes.
I did not,
So far, that's been you.
292 | William Barnett-Lewis Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:49:40pm |
Today's summary:
293 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:00pm |
re: #290 wrenchwench
Yes, I cited a Harvard site that referenced the article.
And immediately corrected the source when it was brought to my attention.
294 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:23pm |
re: #291 researchok
Bullshit
You accused me of making stuff up.
I did not,
So far, that's been you.
Ok, please accept my apologies. You cited poor sources and refused to back down when the low quality of those sources was pointed out to you.
And again: I will offer a full apology once you prove what you claimed in this thread. Any time now.
295 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:34pm |
re: #289 researchok
That's not the same thing as saying I fabricated something.
And if they were questionable sources it was not done intentionally.
I don't think you are intentionally using poor sources or citing bad info, but I do think you have read and believed a lot of stuff in the past that deserves at least reconsideration on your part, if not tossing it altogether. That's why people want to see your sources.
Better to find the info you're talking about now than argue over intentions.
296 | kirkspencer Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:50:36pm |
re: #265 researchok
Yes, what you say is true but it also highlights the other factors that influence prison sentences, replenishment and rehabilitation efforts.
The whole conversation cannot be reduced to singular numbers because there are so many factors which influence recidivism, not thge least of which are political factors.
No. You do not get to move the goal post. We were not talking of recidivism.
We were talking about rehab, which does affect recidivism, and how it's not being done to any significant extent.
297 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:52:13pm |
re: #294 bratwurst
Ok, please accept my apologies. You cited poor sources and refused to back down when the low quality of those sources was pointed out to you.
And again: I will offer a full apology once you prove what you claimed in this thread. Any time now.
I find he'll back down when appropriate. But we can't know without a source for a claim whether it's appropriate now.
298 | Political Atheist Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:53:35pm |
re: #60 Charles Johnson
It absolutely is time, right now, to start talking about stricter gun control. Fuck the politics. I can't stand seeing any more children slaughtered like this.
Maybe I can help. Page where gun control is now. Advocates exxagerate and claim there are 20,000 gun laws. Brookings found 300 at the state level. I'd like to help sort hype from reality. Repeatedly we hear calls for gun laws that are already on the books.
Sometimes it's about enforcing laws not new ones. New laws can thin enforcement resources. Sometimes it is better to enforce what you have. Like straw man buys. One lesson from F&F was how lax that was in some places. This conviction and maximum sentence is a rare result. It should not be.
The recent SCOTUS decisions ended any legal dependence on a militia for an individual to have the right to bear arms at least at home. It also strongly confirmed the ability of legislatures to well regulate the newly confirmed individual right.
There was work to do before the recent shootings. Now, it's urgent.
299 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:18pm |
re: #294 bratwurst
I appreciate that.
I will try to find the source (it's been a while since ai glossed over the article). They cite the problems with apples to apples on recidivism rates but the gist was when the numbers were om balance equal, the numbers were the same.
The Scandinavian countries do have a lower rate that may or may may not be attributable to far lesser incarceration for drug offenses and better mental health access for offenders who needed treatment.
300 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:46pm |
re: #297 wrenchwench
I find he'll back down when appropriate. But we can't know without a source for a claim whether it's appropriate now.
Fair enough. Again, I was out of line in suggesting he made something up then. This was not the case.
As soon as he is ready to back up his claim in this thread, I am ready willing and able to issue another apology.
301 | gwangung Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:54:55pm |
re: #169 gwangung
You can point to major rehabilitation programs now going in in prison systems, then?
Ahem.
302 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:56:27pm |
re: #299 researchok
I appreciate that.
I will try to find the source (it's been a while since ai glossed over the article). They cite the problems with apples to apples on recidivism rates but the gist was when the numbers were om balance equal, the numbers were the same.
The Scandinavian countries do have a lower rate that may or may may not be attributable to far lesser incarceration for drug offenses and better mental health access for offenders who needed treatment.
It is nothing personal, I just don't believe what you said...and I am not impressed by the attempts you are making at moving the goalpost here ahead of citing your source.
And last I checked, Scandinavia is very much part of western Europe.
303 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:32pm |
re: #302 bratwurst
It's Northern Europe, which is generally lumped in with Western Europe.
304 | Major Tom Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:57:42pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.
I heard that report... and was confused to hear another NPR story an hour later say the exact opposite in an interview with a guy from Mother Jones. First report said mass shootings not increasing, psychosis not to blame... Mother Jones said 61 shootings in 30 years- 7 this year alone, 1 in 5 in schools, almost always a long depressed individual (whatever that means) , many times, psychosis is a factor.... I was scratching my head on who was telling the truth, but my gut says Mother knows best.
305 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:58:09pm |
re: #297 wrenchwench
WW, I have seen the number.
As I noted the issue of recidivism is a hot topic because of how it is calculated- each jurisdiction does so differently and mental health facilities and drug laws play a huge role.
And then there is the politics.
And yes, as you note if I am wrong I will concede the point or offer up a correction when necessary. I have never done otherwise.
I have no issue doing that- why would I?
306 | boredtechindenver Fri, Dec 14, 2012 2:59:48pm |
re: #304 Major Tom
Mother Jones said 61 shootings in 30 years- 7 this year alone, 1 in 5 in schools, almost always a long depressed individual (whatever that means) , many times, psychosis is a factor.... I was scratching my head on who was telling the truth, but my gut says Mother knows best.
Here is the MJ report.
307 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:00:22pm |
re: #302 bratwurst
Yes, the Scandinavian rates are different, or anomalous if you will.
And I was not impressed with your characterization of me.
Nothing personal.
308 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:05pm |
re: #307 researchok
Good way to defeat that characterization would be to, you know, produce the source.
309 | wrenchwench Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:12pm |
re: #305 researchok
WW, I have seen the number.
As I noted the issue of recidivism is a hot topic because of how it is calculated- each jurisdiction does so differently and mental health facilities and drug laws play a huge role.
And then there is the politics.
And yes, as you note if I am wrong I will concede the point or offer up a correction when necessary. I have never done otherwise.
I have no issue doing that- why would I?
Because of the shift in your politics, which I have great respect for, I sometimes feel the need to question something you 'know', because before your political shift, you believed things that you don't now. It takes a lot of sorting through old knowledge, tossing some and keeping the rest. It's a lot of work, and I respect your effort. Still, I want to see the source of your knowledge, because I don't know whether the 'new you' has vetted it yet.
310 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:03:13pm |
re: #307 researchok
Yes, the Scandinavian rates are different, or anomalous if you will.
And I was not impressed with your characterization of me.
Nothing personal.
The good news is that the sooner you identify the source for your claim that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours", the sooner you prove how wrong my characterization of you was.
311 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:05:35pm |
re: #310 bratwurst
As I said, I will post it when dig it up.
If not tonight, by tomorrow. I will definitely call your attention to it when I post it.
312 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:06:53pm |
re: #310 bratwurst
And your characterization of me pretty much defined who was talking out of their ass.
313 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:08:11pm |
re: #312 researchok
And your characterization of me pretty much defined who was talking out of their ass.
I am awaiting the support for your claim. And should you not bring it to my attention by tomorrow, I shall be sure to bring the lack of said support to your attention.
314 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:14:40pm |
re: #309 wrenchwench
You raise an interesting point. As my politics have shifted so have a lot of ideas I once held sacred. Lots of reevaluation there.
While my politics are changing my work as a behaviorist and familiarity with the field have remained pretty stable with fewer changes (I still believe punishment needs to be an integral part of justice in addition to rehabilitation, for example).
Crimne, punishment and rehabilitation do have political components but there are still real mental health issues which must be dealt with
Truth be told, it is a minefield.
Read up on the latest DSM kerfuffle and you'll get a taste.
315 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:15:40pm |
316 | Political Atheist Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:17:04pm |
re: #93 Charles Johnson
NPR just reported that psychosis is not a factor in most mass shootings. So yes, we do need better mental health care, but I'm not sure it really will do much to prevent these kinds of horrible crimes.
He carried three handguns into an elementary school and apparently emptied all of them. Our society is what needs mental health care -- this is insane that we allow this to happen.
Lots of us have guns and never fire in anger or hate. Lots of us have very violent video games or engage in violent sports like kickboxing. Lots of us have guns. Some of us catch a spouse cheating, even red handed.
99.9% of us never ever use a weapon for violence.
If not psychosis then what? Something separates a killer from a person like you or me. It's worth running down. For one thing, is our nation more prone to non gun violence? I think so, but I have no paper or proof.
318 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:19:29pm |
319 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:30pm |
re: #318 researchok
You did, indeed, get many things about DDT wrong, and continued to do so despite many, many, many people giving you the right info. It was deeply frustrating. You couldn't comprehend that DDT had never been banned for vector control, only for agricultural use. You couldn't comprehend that using DDT more for agricultural use would very, very quickly cause mass adaptation and ruin its use as vector control. I hope that since then you have learned these very basic facts.
320 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:21:52pm |
re: #318 researchok
re: #317 bratwurst
I already have.
Never happened, remember?
And I apologized. Now prove your claim that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". My cursory research shows that the US has a rate of 67.5% and Sweden (very much part of western Europe in my view) is at 35%...so you are starting in quite a hole.
321 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:23:29pm |
re: #320 bratwurst
I shall find it and post it.
322 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:31pm |
And again, I am sorry. For all I know, this may well be the first time in your life you have pulled a "fact" out of your ass.
323 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:24:47pm |
re: #319 Obdicut
Obdi, do you really want to discuss psychology, anthropology or mental health with me?
324 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:25:49pm |
re: #323 researchok
Obdi, do you really want to discuss psychology, anthropology or mental health with me?
Sure. Not clue what that has to do with the problems you had understanding the DDT stuff, though.
325 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:26:36pm |
re: #324 Obdicut
Sure. Not clue what that has to do with the problems you had understanding the DDT stuff, though.
Or proving his assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours" for that matter!
326 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:28pm |
re: #324 Obdicut
The issue under current discussion is not DDT
Further, when I was err I conceded that.
Not everyone does the same.
327 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:27:55pm |
re: #325 bratwurst
Or proving his assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours" for that matter!
The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.
Western Europe simply doesn't have the same prison population as us, by a long shot, so it's not nearly as important an issue for them.
328 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:28:47pm |
re: #326 researchok
The issue under current discussion is not DDT
Further, when I was err I conceded that.
Not everyone does the same.
No, you didn't. You not only argued about it for an entire thread, then when it came up again you started all over again.
It's nice for you to admit now that you were in error about DDT, though. Thank you for that.
329 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:29:24pm |
re: #326 researchok
The issue under current discussion is not DDT
Further, when I was err I conceded that.
Not everyone does the same.
How many times shall I apologize?
330 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:30:02pm |
re: #327 Obdicut
The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.
That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.
The discussion is and always has been a minefield.
331 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:31:09pm |
re: #330 researchok
The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.
That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.
The discussion is and always has been a minefield.
Yet you did state that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". If you would like to admit you misspoke, you can save yourself some work tonight or tomorrow.
332 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:32:28pm |
re: #329 bratwurst
No need to apologize.
All I want is a civil conversation.
I presume that is your intent as well. All the rest is chaff
333 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:22pm |
re: #332 researchok
No need to apologize.
All I want is a civil conversation.
I presume that is your intent as well. All the rest is chaff
Agreed.
I confess I am in a sour mood today (for reasons obvious and less obvious). I have apologized to you several times already. If you will confess that you misspoke in asserting that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours", I will be happy to let it go.
334 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:34:35pm |
re: #330 researchok
The reason I'm dubious about this is because I doubt that reliable recidivism data has been collected. If I'm correct, the US recidivism number isn't a very reliable one either.
That is a very valid point that has long been discussed.
The discussion is and always has been a minefield.
No, it's not. I have no idea why you're calling it a minefield. It's just not properly done that often because there's not a lot of funding for studying recidivism, partially because of idiots who focus on punishment rather than rehabilitation.
335 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:35:10pm |
re: #331 bratwurst
Yes, I said that.
I'll find the source material. Crime isn't really my area but you do run into al kinds of stuff (my work centers around predictive behavior, hence the second cousin to recidivism).
336 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:38:04pm |
337 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:42:48pm |
re: #336 researchok
Actually, it is a minefield because there are no standardized methodology to calculate recidivism.
I touch on that in 305
If that's your idea of a minefield, I dunno what to say. Yeah, it's challenging. Minefields aren't challenging. They're deadly and blow up in your face. The idiom means that if you engage in something, it might ruin you or be a disaster. Working on methodologies for recidivism is not a minefield.
338 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:45:26pm |
re: #333 bratwurst
The days events put everybody in a sour mood. You aren't alone.
I called my daughter a few times today- I was (and still am- that upset).
Now, insofar as my remarks re recidivism, I do recall reading that somewhere. I assure you if I am in err, I will say so.
The recidivism rates also relate to culture. I have big respect for the guys in my line who work in criminal justice because in addition to the mental health issues, they have to deal with ever changing cultural goal line.
Nowadays, those lines can be influenced by events halfway around the world (terror, violence as a form of political expression, etc).
And there are the mental health issuers.
Factor in the politics and productive conversation becomes very difficult.
Our world.
339 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:46:11pm |
re: #337 Obdicut
When politics are involved, it is a minefield.
340 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:54:13pm |
My personal point of view is that the amorphous terms "about the same" (within 2%? 5%? 20%?) and "western Europe" (if this term includes Scandinavia...which I insist it does...you have virtually no chance) mean there is little hope of you backing up what you said in a mutually satisfactory way.
I was a big enough man to admit that I misspoke. You did not, in fact, pull facts out of your ass regarding DDT. I and others found your support for your position to be dubious, but that is not the same as inventing facts.
Can you, in turn, be a big enough man to admit that, regardless of what you may or may not have read in the past, you cannot support your assertion that "the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours"?
341 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:56:02pm |
re: #339 researchok
When politics are involved, it is a minefield.
That's nice. Turns out everything's a minefield.
Sheesh.
342 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 3:59:41pm |
re: #340 bratwurst
There is merit to your argument.
I am working off a recollection of a paper and in fact do acknowledge the Scandinavian rate as published.
I suppose the best I can do at this point is find the numbers and let them speak for themselves.
What I do recall reading though is the actual difference in rates were not as great as reported in an apple to apple comparison.
I'll be better able to opine once seeing the data, though I suspect even interpreting the data is contentious.
343 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:00:10pm |
re: #341 Obdicut
Yeah, what do the guys who deal with this know?
Let me clarify- what is a minefield in academia or clinical work is not always regarded as such by non practioners or laymen.
345 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:04:31pm |
re: #344 bratwurst
It is a yes, but (somewhat) qualified.
So yes, I am in err.
Now though, my interest is piqued- I really want to see what the data I saw represents.
346 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:11:37pm |
re: #345 researchok
It is a yes, but (somewhat) qualified.
So yes, I am in err.
Now though, my interest is piqued- I really want to see what the data I saw represents.
You make it like pulling teeth!
"The actual difference in rates were not as great as reported in an apple to apple comparison" is a FAR cry from ""the total recidivism rate for western Europe is about the same as ours". Your recollection seems to have changed since we began discussing this.
Having said that, my interest in piqued also. I would be most interested in seeing the source in question here. Perhaps you can make a page of it.
I can tell you that I have indeed seen some recent eye-poppingly high stats from Britain in researching this as we have had this discussion. Again though, (a) the methodologies, etc. make these stats tricky to compare , and (b) the few numbers I have turned up from elsewhere in western Europe are going to keep the average numbers (which is what we are discussing here) far below those in the US.
347 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:16:51pm |
re: #346 bratwurst
LOL
Cut me some slack here- I am recalling a document I haven't seen in a couple of years!
I do not mean to be obstinate or obtuse- I just don't have the data I am attempting to recall at my fingertips.
That said, your remarks did hit on a point- there is clearly a difference in Euro recidivism, if predicated only on the Scandinavian numbers.
My remarks characterizing the equating of recidivism rates were poorly chosen. Of that I am guilty.
If the numbers really are that far off, you'll get a mea culpa in all caps.
348 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:20:13pm |
re: #346 bratwurst
You are right to note this entire discussion would make for a great page.
When the article and numbers are digested maybe we can co author something.
Truth is, I love this stuff. The variables, permutations and possibilities of human behavior are fascinating (which I why I got into the predictive end).
349 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:23:39pm |
It has been clear that you did not have the relevant data at hand for about 90 minutes now, believe me!
And if you can produce numbers that show recidivism rates in western Europe are within 10% or so of those in the US, you will absolutely get a sincere snarkless apology as well.
I do suspect that we can agree that regardless of the comparison to recidivism elsewhere, the corrections system in this country is in serious need of reform.
350 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:36:41pm |
No argument- corrections here is a disaster.
The why is the real debate.
From where I sit, there are too many non violent drug related offenders who have no business being locked up, another huge population of offenders who would be better served in mental health facilities, etc.
Even if you increase the population of mental health professionals in prisons they are still in prison.
Prisons are a very different place than mental health facilities (even secure facilities). They are not conducive to rehabilitation, period. Any prison psychologist or psychiatrist will tell you that. Yes, there is a need for mental health facilities in prisons but there are an enormous number of people who do not belong in prison. They are medicated to the point if being docile but that is stopgap at best.
Medication deals with symptoms and not the underlying problem.
Medication is also cheaper than therapy and prison is cheaper than mental health facilities.
Bratwurst, if people understood the magnitude of problem, they would be outraged.
Yes we need rehabilitation and yes we need punishment (again, a part of the human cultural/societal compact).
We're failing at both.
351 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:43:20pm |
re: #350 researchok
We're doing a great job of delivering far more punishment than most crimes deserve, actually.
352 | EPR-radar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:47:19pm |
re: #351 Obdicut
We're doing a great job of delivering far more punishment than most crimes deserve, actually.
Extreme punishments meted out on a rather arbitrary and capricious basis are a helpful distraction from the fact that many of the really big crimes aren't even illegal, or if they are illegal, are so rarely prosecuted as to become quasi-legal.
Examples include a lot of white-collar scandals over the past decades --- Enron, CA blackouts, bank bailout of 2008, mortgage bundling, etc.
353 | bratwurst Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:47:50pm |
This is not my field of expertise either, but I AM outraged. It has been bad for a long time now, largely fueled by the idiotic drug war, but it is getting worse all the time.
With the many problems facing this country (economic and social), this one always slides to the bottom of the priority list. Considering the numbers involved (well over 1% of ALL adults in Louisiana are incarcerated...a rate 3X higher than Iran!) this is a problem that is going to be with us for many years, impacting generations to come.
Even at a relatively enlightened corner of the internet such as LGF, the topic seldom gets more intelligent treatment than "just make sure not to drop the soap".
354 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:49:59pm |
re: #351 Obdicut
Yes, I'd have to agree.
Crime and punishment is big business even when you take away the private contractors.
When costs have to be cut it is the prison population which pays.
And in the end, that costs everybody else.
It's a cycle.
355 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:50:54pm |
re: #352 EPR-radar
That's a whole other conversation- a really big one.
Talk about vested interests.
356 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:52:04pm |
re: #354 researchok
And which is why your original call for more punishment was infuriating.
357 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:56:52pm |
re: #353 bratwurst
Exactly.
And add to the mix the various political agendas- as if there are simple answers!
There are various correctional science theories- competing even- but they are shunted aside by big money with big influence in the political arena.
If corrections professionals were given the chance t develop a system without political/big money influence, our systems would look very different.
Prisons are a cash cow- and everyone but the prison populations benefit.
358 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 4:57:36pm |
re: #356 Obdicut
No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.
But it is not the only part.
359 | EPR-radar Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:01:22pm |
re: #358 researchok
No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.
Actually, I agree with this. Punishment should be part of the system. It shouldn't be the only part of the system.
The present US correctional system is pretty much only punishment, and punishment is also excessive.
Massive reform is needed in a system where people who get out of prison are often trained professionals in being criminal _because_ of their time in prison.
That's nuts.
360 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:03:37pm |
re: #359 EPR-radar
I could not agree more.
The entire system is out of balance and has been for decades.
361 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:16:06pm |
re: #358 researchok
No, punishment is an integral part of the justice system.
But it is not the only part.
Punishment qua punishment-- the suffering of the incarcerated-- is not useful. Nobody gains anything from the deprivation of prisoners. The deterrence value of punishment is the useful part of it. But many of the people committing crimes have a life outside prison that necessarily involves more hardship than we could create for them in prison without being as brutal as the thugs that run the neighborhoods they come from. We can't compete with the inner city as a punishment for people, and we shouldn't try. And of the dangerous criminals, the real professional assholes, they run the risk every day as a criminal of getting killed.
If you run the numbers, criminals make less than minimum wage. Some do better, very few have long careers. Most are not running the numbers, they are not considering the deterrent, because if they really envisioned getting caught then they wouldn't really find the crime worthwhile. Humans think they have a chance to win the lotto and waste their money on that; they sure as hell will risk abstract years of their life because they don't think they're going to get caught.
Obviously, we need some level of deprivation and some level of punishment for the justice system to work. But as it stands now, the punishment of prison, and of being a felon, is a crushing one on every level, including the economic, and thanks to idiots calling for more punishment and less rehabilitation, that punishment pushes criminals into a life of crime after their release by shutting off options for them.
362 | researchok Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:20:00pm |
363 | Obdicut Fri, Dec 14, 2012 5:22:12pm |
If you really want deterrence, up the number of crimes that get solved. Fund police departments more and end the reliance on seized property which has made police departments collusory in the drug war in the most godawful way.
364 | Ming Fri, Dec 14, 2012 7:00:35pm |
re: #4 ReamWorks SKG
Obama's statement was spot-on and left me in tears.
I liked his choice of Psalm 147 to conclude. ([Link: www.mechon-mamre.org...] )
I agree. Sometimes, and especially today, I feel really honored that he's my President.
This is not a guy who will send American troops in harm's way, or approve a transcontinental oil pipeline, without thoughtful consideration.
It sometimes seems that Obama is the only adult in the room in Washington, D.C.
First-class all the way.