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1 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 5:03:53am

There's a surprise. ///

2 sffilk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 5:16:39am

NBC is reporting the story here. What's scary is that most of the comments are anti-Israel and anti-Jewish, with people not caring that Ms. Corrie was fomenting terrorism.

3 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 5:25:15am

Craig and Cindy lost a child. That is a tragedy for them. However she brought about her own demise through reckless self-endangerment. They are not going to get an apology or a settlement.

4 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 5:46:21am

re: #1 Romantic Heretic

re: #2 sffilk

re: #3 Learned Mother of Zion

In the verdict, Judge Oded Gershon invoked the principle of the combatant activities exception, noting that IDF forces had been attacked in the same area Corrie was killed just hours earlier.

So she was killed by a combat bulldozer?

By the way, pulling down houses in Gaza as a collective punishment and collective punishment is a war crime.

5 alinuxguru  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 5:53:21am

re: #4 Destro

It was more of an assisted suicide. Look both ways when you cross traffic, and don't play in front of armored bulldozers.

6 alinuxguru  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:29:13am

re: #2 sffilk

NBC is reporting the story here. What's scary is that most of the comments are anti-Israel and anti-Jewish, with people not caring that Ms. Corrie was fomenting terrorism.

Is that photo on the page one of those faux "Rachel Corrie was here" photos that were debunked "re-enactments"?

7 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:38:09am

re: #4 Destro

She was working with Palestinians who were busy operating smuggling tunnels, and she put herself in a position where the driver of the bulldozer could not see her. But for her own actions, she would not have died.

The military was doing what it had to do to protect Israeli citizens from further terror attacks. You'd rather blame Israel for protecting its own citizens rather than Corrie who was busy protecting terrorists operating in Gaza.

8 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:01:28am

re: #4 Destro

Has Israel been convicted of that in any court?

9 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:03:30am

re: #7 lawhawk

She was working with Palestinians who were busy operating smuggling tunnels, and she put herself in a position where the driver of the bulldozer could not see her. But for her own actions, she would not have died.

The military was doing what it had to do to protect Israeli citizens from further terror attacks. You'd rather blame Israel for protecting its own citizens rather than Corrie who was busy protecting terrorists operating in Gaza.

Collective punishment is a war crime. Both sides in this conflict have been faulted for war crimes.

10 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:04:57am

re: #9 Destro

Has Israel been convicted of that in any court?

Have the Palestinians?

11 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:06:33am

re: #8 researchok

Israel stands accused of war crimes and crimes against humanity as does Hamas.

12 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:10:52am

re: #11 Destro

Being accused and being convicted are two very different thing.

Has Israel been convicted of that kind of collective punishment in any court?

Have the Palestinians?

13 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:14:43am

re: #11 Destro

And you make it sound as if Israel and openly genocidal Hamas are equal.

Why do you do that?

14 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:17:11am

re: #12 researchok

Being accused and being convicted are two very different thing.

Has Israel been convicted of that kind of collective punishment in any court?

Have the Palestinians?

I am more than willing to send the leaders of Israel and Hamas to the Hague to stand trail.

15 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:18:07am

re: #13 researchok

And you make it sound as if Israel and openly genocidal Hamas are equal.

Why do you do that?

As a somewhat anarchist I consider all govts criminal so I don't see much of a distinction.

16 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:18:11am

re: #14 Destro

Are you saying there is a moral equivalence between them?

17 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:19:12am

re: #15 Destro

At least you are being truthful in this instance.

Now I better understand your stated hatred of America.

18 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:21:45am

Israel stands accused of lots of things.

Existing for one.

Hamas calls for Israel's extermination. Echoing the same calls by Iran, Hizbullah, and other Islamic terror groups. Palestinians routinely claim that Israel's existence is a naqba - a disaster for them, ignoring that Palestinians have had multiple chances to make peace with Israel but haven't even had the courtesy of a counter proposal and that Israel's statehood could have been accompanied by a Palestinian state had their fellow Arabs not thwarted that effort and kept them in a state of misery ever since (refusing to grant Palestinians citizenship in countries where they sought refuge - including Transjordan, which was carved away from Palestine and which captured the West Bank for its own until Israel wrested control in 1967.

Israel has every right to defend itself against terrorists, who operate from within civilian areas. Israel takes great pains to prevent the loss of life to civilians on both sides.

The same can't be said of Hamas or the other terror groups - PRCs, Islamic Jihad, etc. Those terror groups purposefully put their terror operations (tunnels, weapons/bomb factories, kassam launchers, in civilian areas so as to maximize the casualties.

If civilians die in Gaza as a result of Israel defending itself, the fault resides with those terrorists who openly flaunt international law and human rights.

But for the terrorists operating in such a manner, Israel would not have to carry out military operations against those terror groups. Israel withdrew from Gaza in 2005 and left it to its own devices. Instead of using the opportunity to create a vibrant state, the Palestinians destroyed those chances by turning Gaza into a terror state - launching thousands of kassams, mortars, and grad rockets against Israel - and continue doing so to this day. Israel's restraint in going after those responsible for those attacks has been amazing. No other country in the world would endure rockets on a near daily basis without carrying out massive attacks against those responsible.

If only you were as serious about enforcing human rights against the Palestinians as you are about Israel.

19 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:26:12am

re: #18 lawhawk

I would add one thing to these excellent remarks:

There is no such thing as a 'disproportionate response' to calls to genocide.

As for Destro....

Res ipsa loqiotur

20 Romantic Heretic  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:22:22am

Sigh. There's no hope for The Middle East. You are either on one side or the other. There is and can be no nuance. Those on the other side must die and no pity shall be spared for them.

Image: Bele_and_Lokai.jpg

21 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:43:18am

First. To blame Caterpillar Inc. is as Kragar mentioned last night, like blaming Boeing for the 3,000 people that were murdered on 9/11.

Second. Even if the judge ruled in Corrie's family favor the Jew haters would still be doing their mental genuflecting.

There will be a heightened level of Antisemitism, Anti-Israelism, and general ignorance (such as the Caterpillar meme) for the next couple of days.

SNAFU

As for the Obama administration I hope they have the wherewithal to keep their mouths shut.

22 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:43:45am

re: #20 Romantic Heretic

It is not the Israelis who have promised genocide for decades.

To put matters in context, the Palestinians have been the biggest victims of their leadership's dysfunction. They are responsible for teaching this hate for a very long time and the result is evident.

Imagine a school that gave each student a glass of alcohol every day. Each day, beginning at tender nursery school age, the child was encouraged to drink the beverage that would come to poison his mind. Suppose that beverage was from the well aged bottle of anti Semitism.

Suppose once that glass of alcohol was consumed by young dutiful children, the glass was immediately refilled with the beverage from the bottle of anti western and anti democratic values.

After decades, these children, now adults, go home every day, turn on the television and read the newspapers- and they are fed more alcohol. They get more when their kids come home from school, and share the same familiar poisoned ‘fire water.’ They poison they are fed gets the God’s seal of approval when fed to them from the pulpit- or so they desperately need to believe. (When the state pays the clerics, is any wonder the clerics parrot the state?)

Of course, to keep a drunk or a junkie hooked, it takes an ever increasing amount of poison to induce the same stupor that blinds the drunk or the junkie to his own surroundings and dysfunction. The supply of poison never ends.

After years of such ‘education,’ it would be reasonable to expect that there would be a lot of alcoholics in the PA and the Arab world, poisoned by the hate and ideologies of dysfunctional and corrupt leaders. Like alcoholics and substance abusers, they will tell you they ‘have it under control‘ and that they ‘can quit anytime they want.‘ They are blind to their own dysfunction, they are blind to their own deceit and remain so by embracing hate.

23 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:48:53am

re: #21 Gus

First. To blame Caterpillar Inc. is as Kragar mentioned last night, like blaming Boeing for the 3,000 people that were murdered on 9/11.

Second. Even if the judge ruled in Corrie's family favor the Jew haters would still be doing their mental genuflecting.

There will be a heightened level of Antisemitism, Anti-Israelism, and general ignorance (such as the Caterpillar meme) for the next couple of days.

SNAFU

As for the Obama administration I hope they have the wherewithal to keep their mouths shut.

I'd be less cynical if the same people who want to boycott Caterpillar would also call for the boycott of Microsoft, Dell, Epson, et al, because their products were used to produce, disseminate and coordinate some of the most vicious and provocative hate and violence anywhere- hate and violence that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions- throughout the world.

The response from the boycotters? Crickets

24 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:52:04am

re: #23 researchok

I'd be less cynical if the same people who want to boycott Caterpillar would also call for the boycott of Microsoft, Dell, Epson, et al, because their products were used to produce, disseminate and coordinate some of the most vicious and provocative hate and violence anywhere- hate and violence that has resulted in the deaths of hundreds of thousands, maybe millions- throughout the world.

The response from the boycotters? Crickets

We should boycott Ford for all the drunk driving accident that involve Ford!

Derp.

25 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:17:23am

re: #2 sffilk

NBC is reporting the story here. What's scary is that most of the comments are anti-Israel and anti-Jewish, with people not caring that Ms. Corrie was fomenting terrorism.

Lots of hate going on at DKos and HuffPo too. They can't seem to help themselves. Unfortunately haters like Destro and others will always be around.

26 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:29:40am

I'll believe that anarchism make sense when I see a medically fragile 80 year old woman say she believes in it.

Surprisingly, anarchists are usually strong young men (and sometimes women) who don't feel the need to be protected by the law. Those that know that if it came down to "might makes right," they are going to be in a pickle usually are in favor of laws and policemen.

27 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:46:14am
28 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:47:34am

re: #25 NJDhockeyfan

Lots of hate going on at DKos and HuffPo too. They can't seem to help themselves. Unfortunately haters like Destro and others will always be around.

If I am to accept the concept of nation states I would hope for a 2 state solution. - though I tend to hate all states - I hate the Israeli occupation of Gaza (and now the blockade) and the West Bank and the encroaching settlements by a more powerful people against a weaker people.

I hate Palestinian islamism that makes things worse for the Palestinian people (at least a large chunk of Israelis are secular) and I hate Americans who feel it's OK to hate one group over an other and cheer their deaths.

Sometimes I have to wonder, you people do know Israelis have killed more Palestinians than the other way around, right?

It's like the old West, American settlers always feared Indian raids but in reality more Indians died at the hands of settlers than the other way around. So who was really under threat?

29 [deleted]  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:49:50am
30 celticdragon  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:50:07am

re: #8 researchok

Has Israel been convicted of that in any court?

Not really germane, since we veto any attempt in the UN to investigate alleged Israeli warcrimes (like use of white phosphorus against civilian targets, complicity with the massacre of Muslim civilians by Christian militias in Palestine back in the early 80's)

I am convinced that Israeli armed forces have committed serious breaches of the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of land Warfare. Just for the record, I know for a fact the we (the US) have done so as well. It happens in every war. War, by its very nature, brings out inhumanity and barbarism and no human being that ever lived is entirely immune from the effects, IMO.

I also think that Israel has done a fairly decent job of investigating and prosecuting individual soldiers who commit crimes, but tends to shrug off accusations of systemic culpability (decisions to destroy entire neighborhoods IE "collective punishment" and the use of white phosphorus)

Unfortunately, we are pretty damned guilty of that as well...as are Great Britain and many other countries (especially see the role of the British Army in the the North Ireland "troubles". Torture, killings of innocent civilians, sexualized torture)

France sure has no room to talk. Just mention "Algeria".

31 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:51:27am
When the state pays the clerics, is any wonder the clerics parrot the state?

Kinda like how the Israeli Religious Services Ministry pays the wages of Orthodox and conservative rabbis?

32 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:59:43am

re: #22 researchok


I would argue that this is the kind of soft logic that eventually leads to The King's Torah where the racist Shapira argues that it's alright to kill non-jewish children if there is an assumption that a child will grow up to become an enemy of the Jewish people.

It also completely discounts the chance for any sort of popular (ie non-governemental) reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians; they've all been poisoned, them a-rabs, so there's no reasoning with them. But reconciliation is happening at the grassroots level across Palestine/Israel.

33 sffilk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:06:19am

re: #18 lawhawk

THANK YOU!!! You put it better than I ever could have. Do you mind if I borrow what you say?

34 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:23:37am

re: #26 Mostly sane, most of the time.

You talking about Emma Goldman? Although she only live to 70.

35 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:27:26am

re: #27 ReamWorks SKG

Please be careful what sites you link to. That image goes back to godlikeproductions, one of the most batshit sites on Teh Interwebz.

36 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:39:10am

re: #32 War On Music

Outside of the fact that it's been published, what kind of authority do you think the King's Torah has in Halachic rulings?

Speaking of soft logic, and this is a generous term for this juxtaposition--

It also completely discounts the chance for any sort of popular (ie non-governemental) reconciliation between Israelis and Palestinians; they've all been poisoned, them a-rabs, so there's no reasoning with them. But reconciliation is happening at the grassroots level across Palestine/Israel.

Aren't you just belligerently agreeing with researchok's point?

37 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:40:12am

re: #31 War On Music

One thing I notice, it's that the Rabbis always agree with the government.

38 KingKenrod  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:44:31am

re: #15 Destro

As a somewhat anarchist I consider all govts criminal so I don't see much of a distinction.

How do you square being a "somewhat anarchist" with your strong support of the welfare state?

39 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:44:50am

re: #30 celticdragon

I think you're referring to the Sabra and Shatilla massacres that were in Lebanon during the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon, not within what was either Mandate Palestine or territories that now comprise Israel and the territories since 1948.

40 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:46:23am

re: #29 Destro

Why shouldn't she burn an American flag? It's her 'god' given right to free speech.

Star-Spangled Pandering

Burn the flag? Why stop there, shit on it next time.
//

41 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:02:57am

re: #30 celticdragon

Not really germane, since we veto any attempt in the UN to investigate alleged Israeli warcrimes (like use of white phosphorus against civilian targets, complicity with the massacre of Muslim civilians by Christian militias in Palestine back in the early 80's)

I am convinced that Israeli armed forces have committed serious breaches of the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of land Warfare. Just for the record, I know for a fact the we (the US) have done so as well. It happens in every war. War, by its very nature, brings out inhumanity and barbarism and no human being that ever lived is entirely immune from the effects, IMO.

I also think that Israel has done a fairly decent job of investigating and prosecuting individual soldiers who commit crimes, but tends to shrug off accusations of systemic culpability (decisions to destroy entire neighborhoods IE "collective punishment" and the use of white phosphorus)

Unfortunately, we are pretty damned guilty of that as well...as are Great Britain and many other countries (especially see the role of the British Army in the the North Ireland "troubles". Torture, killings of innocent civilians, sexualized torture)

France sure has no room to talk. Just mention "Algeria".

Sorry, but court rulings cannot be vetoed.

Anywhere.

42 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:07:14am

re: #28 Destro

More bullshit.

There is no moral equivalence.

The various Palestinian leaderships have made state sponsored calls for genocide a part of their identity.

For decades.

And I will reiterate- there is no disproportionate response to calls for genocide.

43 Locker  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:08:53am

This is bullshit. All this talk about how she's fostering terrorism by blocking a bulldozer?

Ask any construction foreman in the country and they'll tell you they don't drive heavy equipment around a site when there are people walking around. This was completely avoidable with a bit of due diligence.

Is it dangerous to walk around heavy equipment, yes. Should a driver of a 10 ton bulldozer ignore the fact that their are people walking around his job site? No.

Do I hear a single person "speaking for Israel" who actually seems to give a shit that a person died vs a chance to slam the other side? No.

This... is bullshit.

44 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:13:01am

re: #32 War On Music

Do you want to go there? Do you really want to go there?

Do you want to play the comparison game?

Do you want me to cite from hundreds if not thousands of far more vile and disgusting 'religious' statements and 'authorities'?

Do you really want to go there?

Do you really want to compare the statements of one wacko to hundreds if not thousands of state sponsored bigots?

The Palestinian and Arab world 'leadership' have poisoned millions of people with calls for hate, bigotry and calls for genocide.

That's the reality.

Are you sure you want to play the comparison game?

45 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:13:36am

re: #43 Locker

The driver didn't see her.

That's the fact.

46 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:20:52am

re: #43 Locker

This is bullshit. All this talk about how she's fostering terrorism by blocking a bulldozer?

Ask any construction foreman in the country and they'll tell you they don't drive heavy equipment around a site when there are people walking around. This was completely avoidable with a bit of due diligence.

Is it dangerous to walk around heavy equipment, yes. Should a driver of a 10 ton bulldozer ignore the fact that their are people walking around his job site? No.

Do I hear a single person "speaking for Israel" who actually seems to give a shit that a person died vs a chance to slam the other side? No.

This... is bullshit.

Do you think it might be possible that the driver didn't see her near the bulldozer? It is possible and true.

47 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:27:08am

re: #43 Locker

Well, here are some sad facts. First, if all of us speakers for Israel would be sitting in some nice pub, then you would indeed hear sadness and sympathy, for a girl who was essentially used by politicos all around her to take a position--based on hatred. That's a sad fact.

Second, those little Caterpillars, during the housing boom, were always at work in our neighborhood, surrounded by people--fellow workers. Us dog walkers knew to stay away. We wouldn't dare get close enough to try to stop their work. That's what she did. She tried to stop their work. She assumed that driver would see her. Personally, I would never make that assumption.

In the aftermath, she has become a symbol, not a human being to people who wish to annihilate the State of Israel. They care less about her than the hypothetical pub group.

48 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:31:58am

re: #42 researchok

And I will reiterate- there is no disproportionate response to calls for genocide.

this is a call for genocide.

49 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:32:00am

re: #43 Locker

So the subtext of all of this is that we're not even talking about Rachel Corrie.

There are some who take this court decision as further evidence that the State of Israel should not exist, and hence the present residents must somehow vanish (Jews know what this means), and there are many others who, quite frankly, really resent this position.

50 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:33:29am

re: #48 War On Music

There's got to be a farmer's market nearby that sells logic. Vegan of course.

51 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:34:20am

re: #48 War On Music

this is a call for genocide.

Is it? How is responding to calls for genocide itself a call for genocide?

How is that? Are you saying calls to genocide are legitimate?

How long have you been a member of the American Nazi Party and the Ku Klux Klan?

52 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:41:54am

re: #37 Bob Levin

actually, they take more extreme positions that the government wouldn't touch. The fascist "rabbi" Shapira Dorshei Yihudcha yeshiva in the illegal West Bank settlement of Yitzhar receives more then 150 thousand dollars in 2007 (current figures I cannot find), and the settlement itself received more then a million. (I'm sure that he is teach peace and reconciliation in his schools...)

53 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:46:36am

re: #51 researchok

In America, we realize that people have an inflatable right to freedom of speech. One can for anything, what is important is the actions one take. The fact is that Hamas, Hezbollah, hell, even Iran doesn't have the ability to actually commit genocide on anyone. So let them call till there faces turn blue.

Do you think that if Travon Martin said to George Zimmerman "I think you should die, cracker" that gives George Zimmerman the right to shoot Travon Martin? That is pretty much what you are saying; a bunch of nutty chatter by the "leadership" gives Israel the right to bomb out of existence the palestinian population, because "there is no disproportionate response".

The question is, should one stop genocide though genocide?

54 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:47:34am

re: #53 War On Music

Are you accusing Israel of genocide?

55 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:48:04am

re: #4 Destro

re: #2 sffilk

re: #3 Learned Mother of Zion

So she was killed by a combat bulldozer?

Yes. Exactly.

But I am surprised at the reasoning. The facts are that she was not visible to the driver because she was sitting in front of the bulldozer, instead of standing. This much is proven not just by eyewitness accounts (& logic), but the fact that the driver stopped every time she stood in front of the bulldozer.

By the way, pulling down houses in Gaza as a collective punishment and collective punishment is a war crime.

By the way, this is a strawman. The house was being pulled down because the authorities had a reason to believe that was one of many arms-smuggling tunnels under it.

56 Randall Gross  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:49:25am

re: #53 War On Music

Hamas, Hezbollah, hell, even Iran doesn't have the ability to actually commit genocide on anyone

What was it that the revolutionary guards were doing in Iraq during the war and after? Quds force is in every country near Iran, and they cause a lot of needless death to keep Iran's neighbors destabilized.

57 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:51:30am

re: #52 War On Music

Before I decided to take issue with this, you might want to footnote those figures. The gist of my argument would be, what's your point? You initially responded to a comment by researchok, by making a point with which you just disagreed.

58 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:53:20am

re: #54 Gus

no, I'm not. I'm accusing researchok comment that "there is no disproportionate response" to proportionally advocating genocide.

59 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:53:24am

re: #54 Gus

Are you accusing Israel of genocide?

Clearly, he is.

Unfortunately, either he does not recognize Israel has been remarkably ineffective at genocide or he doesn't know what genocide is.

Or both

60 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:53:53am

re: #54 Gus

Are you accusing Israel of genocide?

He's also equating rocket fire, arms-smuggling tunnels & stated aims of total destruction (bolstered by instances of actual attacks that could only be considered deliberate murder - best example: the Fogel Family), with racial slurs & threats. Nice.

George Zimmerman is an individual. He is not the US government. Dr. Tiller's murderer was also not the US government. But Hamas is the duly elected government of the PA, &, as such, does, indeed, speak for them. I am the first to say just how hard it would be for any of them to actually speak out against it, but, the actions of their government give the rest of the world no real choice but to take them at their word.

61 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:54:02am

re: #53 War On Music

The fact is that Hamas, Hezbollah, hell, even Iran doesn't have the ability to actually commit genocide on anyone.

First, they do have the ability to commit mass murder. And if they fall short of genocide it would only be because they ran out of ammunition.

62 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:55:13am

re: #9 Destro

Both sides in this conflict have been faulted for war crimes.

So if I accuse you of murder, this means that you are equally guilty of the same crime as someone who has actually committed murder? Okay...

63 ReamWorks SKG  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:55:31am

My apologies for posting a photo from a bad site. Here's a better link which more clearly shows the type of person we're dealing with:

Image: rachel_corrie2.jpg

This is not a calm, cool, collected, rational person.

64 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 11:58:33am

re: #53 War On Music

Yes, the Nazis had a right to free speech.

And as a result their bigotry led to deaths of up to to to 44 million people.

(I subtracted the 6 million Jews so as not to upset you. I know just how sensitive and delicate you are./)

Imagine what would have been had we 'over responded' and eliminated the Nazi regime in 1939 by way of disproportionate response.

Up to 50 million 44 million souls might have been saved.

65 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:04:10pm

re: #56 Randall Gross

What was it that the revolutionary guards were doing in Iraq during the war and after? Quds force is in every country near Iran, and they cause a lot of needless death to keep Iran's neighbors destabilized.

Decades of promising to 'Finish what Hitler started' and calls to 'Gas the Jews!' are pretty indicative of the results of institutionalized hate

Calls to genocide are a policy and ideology.

Deaths can come one at a one bullet or knife attack at a time, a busload at a time, a rocket at a time, a guided missile at a time or as a result of nuclear, biological or chemical attack.

66 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:05:16pm

re: #30 celticdragon

Not really germane, since we veto any attempt in the UN to investigate alleged Israeli warcrimes (like use of white phosphorus against civilian targets,

Completely false.

Not only did the US do no such thing, the Red Cross (which even you would not dare to say is pro-Israel) was forced to admit that Israel was NOT "using WP against civilians" but only using it in the prescribed manner: lighting up military targets.

[Link: www.huffingtonpost.com...]

complicity with the massacre of Muslim civilians by Christian militias in Palestine back in the early 80's)

Dig deeper. That one is also a no-go; Sharon is being judged guilty for not knowing that Israel's allies would so something like that. That's petty at best.

I am convinced that Israeli armed forces have committed serious breaches of the Geneva Conventions and the Laws of land Warfare.

Yeah, I see that you are. Luckily, you are not an autocrat.

Just for the record, I know for a fact the we (the US) have done so as well. It happens in every war. War, by its very nature, brings out inhumanity and barbarism and no human being that ever lived is entirely immune from the effects, IMO.

I also think that Israel has done a fairly decent job of investigating and prosecuting individual soldiers who commit crimes, but tends to shrug off accusations of systemic culpability (decisions to destroy entire neighborhoods IE "collective punishment" and the use of white phosphorus)

As I shrug off accusations that I'm a lesbian when I speak up for gay rights, or a man-hater when I speak up for women's rights.

Unfortunately, we are pretty damned guilty of that as well...as are Great Britain and many other countries (especially see the role of the British Army in the the North Ireland "troubles". Torture, killings of innocent civilians, sexualized torture)

France sure has no room to talk. Just mention "Algeria".

It is nice to see that your condemnations are not all one-sided!!

67 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:08:03pm

re: #54 Gus

And we wonder why politics have become so toxic.

This is what passes for 'thought'.

And this is why I hate what politics has become.

Lunatics on the right, lunatics on the left and the even bigger lunatics who drink the kool aid they are fed.

68 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:11:08pm

re: #53 War On Music

No, the question is how should one respond to calls for genocide.

You and Destro have a lot in common.

Coincidence?
//

69 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:15:44pm

Charles has filters in place to prevent users from registering sockpuppets.

70 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:17:17pm

re: #28 Destro

Sometimes I have to wonder, you people do know Israelis have killed more Palestinians than the other way around, right?

Sometimes, I have to wonder: you do know that Israel is world-renowned in military circles for being a leader in minimizing civilian casualties, & that the only reason said casualties are so high is that Hamas makes sandbags & shields out of their women & children? That they BRAG about this?

It's like the old West, American settlers always feared Indian raids but in reality more Indians died at the hands of settlers than the other way around. So who was really under threat?

It's NOTHING like the Old West because Israel stole nothing! The administrators of the area gave Israel to the Jews, who asked all the locals to stay. 60% of them refused to listen & have been fighting ever since. False equivalencies aren't just irritating, they're dangerous.

71 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:18:04pm

re: #69 Learned Mother of Zion

Did not know that

TY

Apologies to War On

Criticism still stands.

72 celticdragon  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:20:03pm

re: #39 lawhawk

I think you're referring to the Sabra and Shatilla massacres that were in Lebanon during the Israeli occupation of Southern Lebanon, not within what was either Mandate Palestine or territories that now comprise Israel and the territories since 1948.

I stand corrected.

73 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:23:07pm

re: #38 KingKenrod

How do you square being a "somewhat anarchist" with your strong support of the welfare state?

Better than nothing.

74 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:23:25pm

Yes. I'm sure that Hezbollah and Hamas will respond peacefully to this ruling.

75 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:23:35pm

re: #70 Flavia

That more Palestinians have been killed has been the result of choices made by the Palestinian leadership.

That said, I am curious to see the numbers.

Also, the numbers take on a different meaning when you factor in the Palestinian instigated wars in Jordan, Lebanon, etc

Some 130,000-250,000 were people killed in Lebanon alone, though others report the number to be considerably higher.

Perspective, you know?

76 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:24:04pm

re: #74 Gus

LOLOL

77 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:24:41pm

re: #74 Gus

I hear the sheet music for Kumbaya has sold out.
//

78 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:24:54pm

re: #68 researchok

No, the question is how should one respond to calls for genocide.

You and Destro have a lot in common.

Coincidence?
//

The Palestinians have a nuclear arsenal?

79 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:25:29pm

re: #76 researchok

LOLOL

Can you imagine the fund raising that's going on over this?

Mind you, I do not celebrate her death. I need to say that because of the rampant false equivalency her supporters are prone towards.

80 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:26:07pm

re: #70 Flavia

Sometimes, I have to wonder: you do know that Israel is world-renowned in military circles for being a leader in minimizing civilian casualties, & that the only reason said casualties are so high is that Hamas makes sandbags & shields out of their women & children? That they BRAG about this?

It's NOTHING like the Old West because Israel stole nothing! The administrators of the area gave Israel to the Jews, who asked all the locals to stay. 60% of them refused to listen & have been fighting ever since. False equivalencies aren't just irritating, they're dangerous.

The West Bank is not Israel's.

81 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:26:30pm

Step 1. Palestine recognizes the state of Israel.

82 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:27:58pm

re: #78 Destro

The Palestinians have a nuclear arsenal?

No, just rockets, guns, and suicide vests. They been able to kill plenty of Jews but still want more. For each suicide bombing the kids get to go out and pass around candy.

83 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:28:40pm

re: #78 Destro

The Palestinians have a nuclear arsenal?

I'm sure if they did Israel would have nothing to worry about.

//

84 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:29:04pm

re: #40 NJDhockeyfan

Burn the flag? Why stop there, shit on it next time.
//

What do I care what someone does to their personal property. You think a cloth with colors and shapes on it has sacred powers or some such?

85 celticdragon  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:29:32pm

re: #41 researchok

Actually, we block the investigations and the resolutions. To be sure, China and Russia play the same game when we try to investigate the bullshit that Hamas et al have been up to.

I would rather let the chips fall as they may and call out the bullshit from all sides involved: Racist (IMO) Israeli policies that are self destructive and drive Palestinians into the opposition on one side...

...and genocidal (yes, genocidal) policies endorsed by Hamas and Hezbollah accompanied by murders of helpless Israeli children (including one horrific incident in which an infiltrator actually broke into a settlers home and cut kids throats in their sleep...I don't know to even fucking respond to that), using marked ambulances to ferry troops and weapons etc etc.

I am not going to play magical balance faerie here. I think that the crimes of Hamas et al far outweigh those of Israel. I will not agree to ignoring Israeli malfeasance just because the other side is worse.

86 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:32:14pm

They're going to appeal the ruling anyway.

87 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:32:14pm

re: #83 Gus

I'm sure if they did Israel would have nothing to worry about.

//

So you bring up a bullshit example and ignore the real world fact, Palestinians are in no position to destroy Israel. More Palestinians have been killed by WMD holding Israel than vise versa.

So how is exactly this genocide of Israelis going to happen at the hands of Palestinians?

The American Indians wanted to genocide the white man but had no power - they did a Ghost Dance to make the White man vanish instead. They were massacred by the Union forces at Wounded Knee.

88 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:32:41pm

re: #78 Destro

re: #78 Destro

The Palestinians have a nuclear arsenal?

No.

Their supporters and those who arm them will if given the chance.

Do you really believe a group which has continually promised genocide would be selective in how they would exercise their beliefs?

89 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:34:47pm

re: #81 Gus

Step 1. Palestine recognizes the state of Israel.

It will never make it to Step 2.

JERUSALEM (AP) — A Hamas leader said Thursday that if his militant group came to power in a future Palestinian state, it would not abide by any previous Palestinian peace deals with Israel.

Moussa Abu Marzouk, the Islamic militant group's number two figure, said any potential deal between Israel and the Palestinian Authority, even if ratified in a Palestinian referendum, would be considered only as a temporary truce.

"We will not recognize Israel as a state," he told the Jewish Daily Forward, a Jewish-American newspaper in an interview published Thursday. It was the first such interview by a senior Hamas leader to a Jewish publication. Israeli newspapers reported it on Friday.

It's all Israel's fault.
//

90 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:34:48pm

re: #87 Destro

So you bring up a bullshit example and ignore the real world fact, Palestinians are in no position to destroy Israel. More Palestinians have been killed by WMD holding Israel than vise versa.

So how is exactly this genocide of Israelis going to happen at the hands of Palestinians?

The American Indians wanted to genocide the white man but had no power - they did a Ghost Dance to make the White man vanish instead. They were massacred by the Union forces at Wounded Knee.

I was responding to your bullshit question.

91 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:35:38pm

re: #80 Destro

True- and it could be a part of Palestine, if only the Palestinians would accept the three conditions for peace agreed to by the international communuity.

*Cessation of terror
*Secure and recognized boundaries
*Diplomatic recognition.

Which exactly of those three things are too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

92 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:35:44pm

re: #88 researchok

re: #78 Destro

No.

Their supporters and those who arm them will if given the chance.

Do you really believe a group which has continually promised genocide would be selective in how they would exercise their beliefs?

Anyone who holds nuclear weapons is using genocide as a threat. USA and Israel included. Using nuclear weapons or WMD of any kind is a genocidal act.

93 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:36:20pm

Step 2. Stop teaching hate in PA television.

94 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:36:36pm

Step 3. Stop lobbing rockets in Israeli territory.

95 Sheila Broflovski  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:36:42pm

Someone has changed the subject YET AGAIN.

96 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:37:16pm

re: #79 Gus

That's a shrewd observation.

I would say cynical- if it weren't true.

97 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:37:29pm

re: #95 Learned Mother of Zion

Someone has changed the subject YET AGAIN.

...

BUT ISRAEL HAS NUKES!!11TY

98 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:37:51pm

re: #92 Destro

Anyone who holds nuclear weapons is using genocide as a threat. USA and Israel included. Using nuclear weapons or WMD of any kind is a genocidal act.

If Iran was able to get a nuke into Gaza, they will have no problem setting it off in Israel. You can bet money on it.

99 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:38:13pm

re: #92 Destro

More pivot and attack bullshit.

No one other than a select few groups/nations have announced their genocidal intent.

100 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:38:15pm

re: #87 Destro

And Israel has actually used these WMDs right?

When has Israel ever even admitted having nuclear weapons?

If I had no arms or legs I could count the times on my fingers how many times Israel has threatened to nuke anyone, especially the Palestinians.

101 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:38:37pm

re: #95 Learned Mother of Zion

Shocking!

102 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:39:13pm

re: #100 ArchangelMichael

Pivot and attack countdown begins...

103 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:40:20pm

re: #92 Destro

How does a promise of genocide fit into your worldview?

104 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:40:29pm

re: #91 researchok

True- and it could be a part of Palestine, if only the Palestinians would accept the three conditions for peace agreed to by the international communuity.

*Cessation of terror
*Secure and recognized boundaries
*Diplomatic recognition.

Which exactly of those three things are too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

The Palestinians are not well served by their leadership.

We are talking about foreigners here. Israel is not an American outpost in the Middle East, so I don't get the knee jerk reaction.

That's the American problem with the Israel/Palestinian conflict. The USA does not have the political will to impose a peace and the stronger side, Israel is not in a mood to meet Palestinian demands - especially when those in power are linked to religiously minded settlers with a manifest destiny outlook towards the Occupied Territories.

105 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:41:00pm

I'm sure had the judge ruled in the Corrie's family favor the Hamas apologists would have responded calmly to it all and have nothing but kind words for Jews and Israel for the rest of time. Palestine would have finally recognized Israel. Flowers would bloom and birds would sing.

106 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:41:41pm

Damned if you do. Damned if you don't.

107 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:41:45pm

re: #87 Destro

So you bring up a bullshit example and ignore the real world fact, Palestinians are in no position to destroy Israel. More Palestinians have been killed by WMD holding Israel than vise versa.

So how is exactly this genocide of Israelis going to happen at the hands of Palestinians?

The American Indians wanted to genocide the white man but had no power - they did a Ghost Dance to make the White man vanish instead. They were massacred by the Union forces at Wounded Knee.

108 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:43:20pm

re: #98 NJDhockeyfan

If Iran was able to get a nuke into Gaza, they will have no problem setting it off in Israel. You can bet money on it.

Yea and if aliens from Mars attacked we would be screwed but what does Iran and her non existing nukes have to do with Palestinians getting their homes bulldozered as part of Israel's collective punishment of them?

109 NJDhockeyfan  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:46:31pm

re: #108 Destro

Yea and if aliens from Mars attacked we would be screwed but what does Iran and her non existing nukes have to do with Palestinians getting their homes bulldozered as part of Israel's collective punishment of them?

You were the one whining about the US and Israel having nukes. You also are sure Israel has nukes but Iran has non existing nukes. Interesting thought process.

110 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:46:47pm

re: #100 ArchangelMichael

And Israel has actually used these WMDs right?

When has Israel ever even admitted having nuclear weapons?

If I had no arms or legs I could count the times on my fingers how many times Israel has threatened to nuke anyone, especially the Palestinians.

You are right, iran at least signed the non nuclear weapon proliferation treaty and renounced nuclear weapons. Israel has not.

111 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:47:29pm

re: #104 Destro

More pivot and attack.

In case it has eluded you this entire conversation has been centered around the Palestinians.

Don't change the subject.

112 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:48:20pm

re: #106 Gus

The words 'other worldly' come to mind.

113 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:48:25pm
114 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:48:54pm

re: #110 Destro

You are right, iran at least signed the non nuclear weapon proliferation treaty and renounced nuclear weapons. Israel has not.

115 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:49:16pm
116 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:50:11pm

See...

MBF be damned, but it's not just nutty Conservatives and Libertarian conspiracy kooks who live in a fact free world.

117 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:50:45pm

re: #110 Destro

Who do you thin is more likely to use WMD's- Israel or nations who have promised genocide?

As in the nation who has urged the user of WMD's?

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

118 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:51:55pm

re: #113 Gus

That was very different- and thus acceptable.

That attack was deliberate.
/

119 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:53:19pm

re: #118 researchok

That was very different- and thus acceptable.

That attack was deliberate.
/

Yeah. Those attacks weren't enough to attract the attention of the hipsters.

120 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:54:38pm

re: #117 researchok

By the way, Hashemi Rafsanjani, proponent of actually using WMD's is considered a moderate.

121 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:55:28pm

Interesting. The response to this has been louder than anything I've ever seen regarding Assad and Syria.

122 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:55:43pm

re: #119 Gus

You know how ISM is.

Israelis are not compatible with their definition of 'victim'.

Ever. No matter what.

123 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:56:19pm

re: #121 Gus

This is a proxy debate.

Like you don't know.
//

124 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 12:58:07pm

re: #123 researchok

This is a proxy debate.

Like you don't know.
//

Yes. So much so the BDS crowd is calling for a boycott of Caterpillar, Inc. I didn't see them calling for a boycott of Caterpillar after the attacks in Israel.

125 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:00:25pm

Deranged:

The role of Caterpillar machines in Israel’s violations of the basic rights of the Palestinians is yet another reason for socially responsible investors to divest from the company.

126 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:02:50pm

re: #109 NJDhockeyfan

You were the one whining about the US and Israel having nukes. You also are sure Israel has nukes but Iran has non existing nukes. Interesting thought process.

I bring it up because claims that Israel is doing what it does to hold off a genocide is bullshit used to shut up debate. Israel is a nuclear power and there is no nation or people that are capable of threatening the nation's existence now or into the near future.

127 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:05:45pm

re: #126 Destro

I bring it up because claims that Israel is doing what it does to hold off a genocide is bullshit used to shut up debate. Israel is a nuclear power and there is no nation or people that are capable of threatening the nation's existence now or into the near future.

Because nuclear weapons are sooo effective fighting an enemy 3 blocks away.

Unless Israel has the Fatman from Fallout 3 or some shit.

128 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:06:25pm

re: #126 Destro

More bullshit.

Israel isn't promising genocide and a new Holocaust.

129 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:06:34pm

re: #126 Destro

I bring it up because claims that Israel is doing what it does to hold off a genocide is bullshit used to shut up debate. Israel is a nuclear power and there is no nation or people that are capable of threatening the nation's existence now or into the near future.

???

Sorry, but I disagree. We were a nuclear power, yet we spent the 60's, 70's and 80's afraid that Russia could start a war that would destroy both nations. Having nukes doesn't mean you're invincible. It means you have nukes.

130 War On Music  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:07:55pm

re: #91 researchok

True- and it could be a part of Palestine, if only the Palestinians would accept the three conditions for peace agreed to by the international communuity.

*Cessation of terror
*Secure and recognized boundaries
*Diplomatic recognition.

Which exactly of those three things are too onerous a burden for the Palestinians?

can you tell me what are Israels recognized boarders?

131 Darth Vader Gargoyle  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:09:27pm

re: #126 Destro

I bring it up because claims that Israel is doing what it does to hold off a genocide is bullshit used to shut up debate. Israel is a nuclear power and there is no nation or people that are capable of threatening the nation's existence now or into the near future.

At its most narrow point, Israel is about 13 miles wide. Not exactly a huge country. A couple well placed nukes could have a pretty dramatic affect on the country...

132 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:10:08pm

re: #130 War On Music

To be negotiated, as per the UN, NATO, Quartet, EU, etc.

I can tell you what the Palestinian position is- no recognition of Israel and eradication of the state.

133 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:18:10pm

re: #130 War On Music

can you tell me what are Israels recognized boarders?

Jim, Tom, and the dude who keeps leaving the bathroom with no TP in it.

134 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:21:15pm

We will now wait for War On Music to use an online dictionary to figure out why I said that.

135 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:23:10pm

re: #134 Mostly sane, most of the time.

We will now wait for War On Music to use an online dictionary to figure out why I said that.

LOLOL

136 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:24:37pm

re: #126 Destro

It would take as few as 4-5 nuclear weapons to obliterate Israel, which is smaller than the state of New Jersey. You can drive across Israel in 45 minutes (from the Tel Aviv coast to Jerusalem). It's another 45 minutes to the Jordanian border. From north to south, you're talking about 4-5 hours, depending on the route. It's a tiny country, and Israel's nuclear arsenal (which it has kept ambiguous and never admitted to actually having nukes) has been somewhat of a deterrent to military attack by its enemies.

By comparison, you've got Iran that has repeatedly stated that if it obtains nukes that it would use them - on Israel. Not for self-defense. Not to balance power, but to destroy Israel. That's not morally equivalent. That's ignoring the rhetoric and reality coming from Iran's government, religious leaders, and political structure. They're vested in seeing Israel destroyed, and while they're busy working on obtaining nuclear weapons, they're using their proxy armies in Hamas and Hizbullah to wear down Israel and exploiting vulnerabilities where possible.

137 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:29:25pm

re: #130 War On Music

Israel has recognized borders with Egypt and Jordan. The border with Lebanon is still disputed by Hizbullah in Southern Lebanon (they claim Israel occupies Sheba Farms, but the UN says Israel's not).

The border region with Syria is still in flux. The ceasefire lines have Israel occupying the Golan Heights with a DMZ between Israeli and Syrian forces with a UN force patroling.

There's a Green Line that demarcates where the West Bank and pre 1967 Israel boundaries are located. There's a further boundary line between Gaza and Israel.

Since those other lines are still in dispute by the Palestinians/Syrians/Hizbullah, then those borders are still open to final peace deals.

If the PA wanted, they could have a state tomorrow since land for peace can involve land swaps between the West Bank and land within the Green Line to improve territorial integrity. There had been some discussion about that a few years back, but the Palestinians wants Jerusalem for itself, plus right of return, so all is for naught. And Hamas wants all of Israel - regardless of whatever boundaries you provide. Since Hamas is part of the PA, that means no deal no matter how much paper diplomats throw in the air.

138 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:31:36pm

re: #137 lawhawk

...If the PA wanted, they could have a state tomorrow since land for peace can involve land swaps between the West Bank and land within the Green Line to improve territorial integrity. There had been some discussion about that a few years back, but the Palestinians wants Jerusalem for itself, plus right of return, so all is for naught. And Hamas wants all of Israel - regardless of whatever boundaries you provide. Since Hamas is part of the PA, that means no deal no matter how much paper diplomats throw in the air.

Just to recap.

139 Skandal  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:32:18pm

re: #121 Gus

That's absolutely true. The disproportionate attention does not concern merely Corrie's death or the plight of the Palestinians rather it's because she died in an effort to assist those trying to murder Jews. Her failure in that effort is what is most upsetting to her supporters.

140 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:32:42pm

re: #121 Gus

Interesting. The response to this has been louder than anything I've ever seen regarding Assad and Syria.

Assad murders dozens a day in wanton airstrikes, commits mass murder and there are the mass graves to prove it, and there's an incomparable silence.

An Israeli court, after weighing the evidence and testimony from those involved on both sides finds that Israel wasn't responsible for Corrie's death, and the shrieks of genocide and war crimes begin anew.

141 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:34:23pm

re: #140 lawhawk

Assad murders dozens a day in wanton airstrikes, commits mass murder and there are the mass graves to prove it, and there's an incomparable silence.

An Israeli court, after weighing the evidence and testimony from those involved on both sides finds that Israel wasn't responsible for Corrie's death, and the shrieks of genocide and war crimes begin anew.

Right. A decision that was handed down by one judge, in one court; and a decision that can and will be appealed according to news reports.

142 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:36:14pm

re: #43 Locker

She was working with the ISM to block Israel from going after smuggling tunnels used by terrorists to regroup and rearm. She wasn't helping kids learn their ABCs or math skills. She wasn't teaching peace and tolerance.

And she was being used by the Palestinians as a useful idiot for their own cause. Her death was a propaganda tool for the Palestinians.

She wasn't some innocent bystander in all this. She was an active participant who was aiding and abetting terrorists through her actions to block the demolition of smuggling tunnels.

143 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:36:37pm

Imagine now if one were to, say, compromise and think of this as negligence on the part of the bulldozer operator. To the effect of involuntary manslaughter. What would be the response?

144 RadicalModerate  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:37:39pm

I see that the subject of the death of Rachel Corrie still evokes a rather heated emotional response from some individuals here.

A note for our more recent members: A couple of years ago, several people were banned from LGF for ridiculing Corrie's death, and more than a few people were publicly warned as well for statements made.

Unfortunately, those feelings don't seem to have changed one bit.

145 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:38:45pm

re: #144 RadicalModerate

I see that the subject of the death of Rachel Corrie still evokes a rather heated emotional response from some individuals here.

A note for our more recent members: A couple of years ago, several people were banned from LGF for ridiculing Corrie's death, and more than a few people were publicly warned as well for statements made.

Unfortunately, those feelings don't seem to have changed one bit.

Can you please show me where people are ridiculing her death?

146 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:39:39pm

re: #145 Gus

Can you please show me where people are ridiculing her death?

In this thread that is. Someone got a little carried away in another thread -- comment was deleted.

147 RadicalModerate  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:43:33pm

re: #145 Gus

Can you please show me where people are ridiculing her death?

Not saying that there has been open ridicule here, however the fact that there are almost 150 responses on a LGF User Page that isn't main-paged says that it is still a bit of a hot-button issue around here.

148 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:44:45pm

re: #147 RadicalModerate

Not saying that there has been open ridicule here, however the fact that there are almost 150 responses on a LGF User Page that isn't main-paged says that it is still a bit of a hot-button issue around here.

It's a hot button issue.

149 lawhawk  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:45:20pm

re: #147 RadicalModerate

More than 3/4 of the comments are to rebut outright falsehoods, moral equivalencies, and just flat out BS by a couple of posters.

Israel's existence is a hot button issue. For some, nothing Israel does can ever be accepted as valid.

150 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:45:53pm

re: #149 lawhawk

More than 3/4 of the comments are to rebut outright falsehoods, moral equivalencies, and just flat out BS by a couple of posters.

Israel's existence is a hot button issue. For some, nothing Israel does can ever be accepted as valid.

See #143.

151 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:49:56pm

re: #144 RadicalModerate

I haven't seen a single instance of anyone using that particular derogatory term or rejoicing or making fun of her in any way on this thread.

In fact discussion of the Rachel Corrie incident has long since past and now it's just rebutting the Israel Derangement Syndrome posts.

152 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:50:42pm

re: #140 lawhawk

Why should this day be any different than any other day?

153 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:51:15pm

Glancing through some of the comments at Infowars.

154 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:53:25pm

re: #153 Gus

Twilight Zone material.

155 ArchangelMichael  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:59:25pm

re: #153 Gus

Glancing through some of the comments at Infowars.

Mos Eisley Spaceport.

156 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 1:59:58pm

re: #154 researchok

Twilight Zone material.

Nutters. Who didn't see this coming? If the judge said "negligent homicide?" It would be the same thing.

157 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:03:57pm

You know what is most depressing?

There was a time- not that long ago- when if someone set you straight or gave you factual information (instead of the bullshit masquerading to be factual) you'd say. 'Thanks for setting me straight' -or 'Sorry, I didn't know that[ or anything along those lines.

Now, some people just hunker down and propagate their bullshit with even more ferocity.

I don't know if that is more sad or pathetic.

158 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:05:51pm

re: #157 researchok

You know what is most depressing?

There was a time- not that long ago- when if someone set you straight or gave you factual information (instead of the bullshit masquerading to be factual) you'd say. 'Thanks for setting me straight' -or 'Sorry, I didn't know that[ or anything along those lines.

Now, some people just hunker down and propagate their bullshit with even more ferocity.

I don't know if that is more sad or pathetic.

I blame the "Jesus General School of Foreign Policy."

159 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:09:16pm

re: #158 Gus

No kidding.

Sometimes humor can be too cutting

Remember Punch?

160 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:17:55pm

re: #159 researchok

No kidding.

Sometimes humor can be too cutting

Remember Punch?

Don't remember that one. I need a break from the intertoobs. Hasta.

161 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:39:18pm

re: #144 RadicalModerate

Unfortunately, those feelings don't seem to have changed one bit.

The feelings have changed, and you know it. I remember what used to be said.

162 Bob Levin  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 2:42:40pm

re: #147 RadicalModerate

Actually, I think that if the professional provocateurs weren't in the discussion, I'd say the thread wouldn't be longer than 10 comments. If you read the thread, there are very few comments about Rachel Corrie.

163 Mostly sane, most of the time.  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 3:02:00pm

re: #143 Gus

Imagine now if one were to, say, compromise and think of this as negligence on the part of the bulldozer operator. To the effect of involuntary manslaughter. What would be the response?

Operators of heavy machinery usually use the assumption that nobody is purposefully trying to throw themselves under the machinery.

164 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:18:16pm

re: #162 Bob Levin

Actually, I think that if the professional provocateurs weren't in the discussion, I'd say the thread wouldn't be longer than 10 comments. If you read the thread, there are very few comments about Rachel Corrie.

I see a lot of excusing away the death of Rachel Corrie.

165 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:22:30pm

re: #136 lawhawk

It would take as few as 4-5 nuclear weapons to obliterate Israel, which is smaller than the state of New Jersey. You can drive across Israel in 45 minutes (from the Tel Aviv coast to Jerusalem). It's another 45 minutes to the Jordanian border. From north to south, you're talking about 4-5 hours, depending on the route. It's a tiny country, and Israel's nuclear arsenal (which it has kept ambiguous and never admitted to actually having nukes) has been somewhat of a deterrent to military attack by its enemies.

By comparison, you've got Iran that has repeatedly stated that if it obtains nukes that it would use them - on Israel. Not for self-defense. Not to balance power, but to destroy Israel. That's not morally equivalent. That's ignoring the rhetoric and reality coming from Iran's government, religious leaders, and political structure. They're vested in seeing Israel destroyed, and while they're busy working on obtaining nuclear weapons, they're using their proxy armies in Hamas and Hizbullah to wear down Israel and exploiting vulnerabilities where possible.

Iran is nowhere near having nukes. There is a greater chance Israel and the earth will be hit my a meteor than Iran nuking Israel in the next 30 years.

166 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:23:11pm

re: #164 Destro

Usual bullshit and pivot and attack.

There are witnesses whose statements clearly allude to the event as an accident.

Deal with the reality that this wasn't a cold murder- no matter how much you want it to be.

167 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:25:44pm

re: #165 Destro

Iran is nowhere near having nukes. There is a greater chance Israel and the earth will be hit my a meteor than Iran nuking Israel in the next 30 years.

Really? Care to provide the statistical probability report? Is there a link you can provide?

And how does that changes Iran's stated call to genocide?

More bullshit, more pivot and attack.

168 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:28:23pm

re: #131 Darth Vader Gargoyle

At its most narrow point, Israel is about 13 miles wide. Not exactly a huge country. A couple well placed nukes could have a pretty dramatic affect on the country...

What fictional army's tank division is going to drive into that 13 mile wide area of Israel?

The only nuclear power in the Middle East is Israel and Iran is nowhere near getting a nuclear weapon in our lifetime.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged that Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor is trying to make them.

Read more: [Link: www.pbs.org...]

169 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:30:47pm

re: #167 researchok

Really? Care to provide the statistical probability report? Is there a link you can provide?

And how does that changes Iran's stated call to genocide?

More bullshit, more pivot and attack.

Here you, go.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged that Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor is trying to make them.

Read more: [Link: www.pbs.org...]

If Iran has no nukes - how will they carry out this genocide you claim they call for? Will they march through American occupied Iraq? Then Jordan? By prayer?

170 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:34:00pm

re: #168 Destro

More bullshit.

Lots of analysts say Iran is close to having nuclear weapons whenever they want one.

Barak is a politician.

Iran's nuclear weapons program has suffered some setbacks- some of the scientists working on the project are no longer affilated with the project.

Bummer.

171 researchok  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 6:40:07pm

re: #169 Destro

More pivot and attack bullshit.

Try this- from Iranian sources.

RAFSANJANI SAYS MUSLIMS SHOULD USE NUCLEAR WEAPON AGAINST ISRAEL

When a regime which fires on it's own citizens- non violent young women- promises genocide, it's time to take them seriously.

Remember Neda Soltan?

172 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:19:50pm

re: #170 researchok

More bullshit.

Lots of analysts say Iran is close to having nuclear weapons whenever they want one.

Barak is a politician.

Iran's nuclear weapons program has suffered some setbacks- some of the scientists working on the project are no longer affilated with the project.

Bummer.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak is a traitor then? If Iran has nukes or about to and he saying they don't? GASP!!!!!!

Now, Barak has admitted an important point that has been widely accepted by U.S. officials and even by many in Israel, which is that Iran has no nuclear weapon program, a point that has been emphasized over the last year by Defense Secretary Leon Panetta, CIA Director David Petraeus, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff General Martin Dempsey, and National Intelligence Director James Clapper.

Read more: [Link: www.pbs.org...]

173 Destro  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 7:33:46pm

re: #109 NJDhockeyfan

You were the one whining about the US and Israel having nukes. You also are sure Israel has nukes but Iran has non existing nukes. Interesting thought process.

Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged that Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor has an order been given to make them.

[Link: transcripts.cnn.com...]

BLITZER: What -- what does that mean, that the ayatollah has not given the order to build a nuclear bomb?

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

174 Buck  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 8:53:16pm

re: #80 Destro

The West Bank is not Israel's.

Really? Who's is it? Who is the rightful owner of the land taken from the Ottoman Empire after WW1? What country holds the legal deed to the land?

Israel does. The land was returned to the Jews in 1920. Britain was given a Mandate to help return the land to the Jews. No one can give that land to someone else.

At the same time that this land was returned to the Jews by the Allies of WW1, the league of nations and later the UN... Lebanon was given their land, Syria was given their land. No one disputes those land transfers. Why do you only dispute the transfer of land (from the Ottoman Empire) to the Jews?

It actually does belong to Israel.

175 Gus  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 9:27:07pm

I was thinking about the word genocide. I wish Sergey was here. All I want to say is that there is no genocide of any sort going on within Israel and within Palestine. There is a conflict and mane people have been killed. Yet no genocide. It is the incorrect use of the word. In fact there is no genocide going on currently, in Syria. And always remember when you utter genocide in this context, it causes a Spock eyebrow.

O_o

176 Flavia  Tue, Aug 28, 2012 10:52:53pm

re: #110 Destro

re: #100 ArchangelMichael

And Israel has actually used these WMDs right?

When has Israel ever even admitted having nuclear weapons?

If I had no arms or legs I could count the times on my fingers how many Israel has threatened to nuke anyone, especially the Palestinians.

You are right, iran [sic] at least signed the non nuclear weapon proliferation treaty and renounced nuclear weapons. Israel has not.

Did you think that no one would notice that you dodged ABSOLUTELY EVERY being made to you? I have to suppose this is some very strong naivete at work here, given the "Iran... renounced nuclear weapons" belief. The ONLY thing their reactor is capabler of producing is weapons grade materials.

177 Gus  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 12:04:31am
178 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 5:27:37am

re: #174 Buck

Really? Who's is it? Who is the rightful owner of the land taken from the Ottoman Empire after WW1? What country holds the legal deed to the land?

Israel does. The land was returned to the Jews in 1920. Britain was given a Mandate to help return the land to the Jews. No one can give that land to someone else.

At the same time that this land was returned to the Jews by the Allies of WW1, the league of nations and later the UN... Lebanon was given their land, Syria was given their land. No one disputes those land transfers. Why do you only dispute the transfer of land (from the Ottoman Empire) to the Jews?

It actually does belong to Israel.

The West Bank is considered occupied territory both by the Israeli courts and under international law.

179 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 5:36:53am

re: #176 Flavia

Did you think that no one would notice that you dodged ABSOLUTELY EVERY being made to you? I have to suppose this is some very strong naivete at work here, given the "Iran... renounced nuclear weapons" belief. The ONLY thing their reactor is capabler of producing is weapons grade materials.

Who should I believe, cast offs from the Pamela Geller, pro George Bush invade Iraq types like you? Or the experts? Have not your type been discredited enough?

[Link: transcripts.cnn.com...]

BLITZER: What -- what does that mean, that the ayatollah has not given the order to build a nuclear bomb?

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

[Link: www.haaretz.com...]

Defense Minister Ehud Barak was quoted on Thursday as saying he does not view Iran as a threat to Israel's existence, a view that would seem to depart from Israeli statements of the recent past.

Israel's mass-circulation Yedioth Ahronoth daily quoted Barak, the head of Israel's centre-left Labour party, as saying "Iran does not constitute an existential threat against Israel."

[Link: www.juancole.com...]

Israel: No Iranian Nuclear Weapons Program;

So the only nation in the Middle East with a nuclear weapon is Israel. Iran does not have a nuclear weapon nor have they, per Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak begun such a program. So how will this "genocide" by Iran be carried out? It is your zombie apocalypse fantasy at work here so you tell us? Absent nuclear weapons how will Iran, a Shia, non Arab power 2 nations removed from Israel with a US army in between Israel and Iran (in Iraq) and a US naval fleet in the Iranian Gulf, how will they carry out this genocide of Israel? By the power of prayer?

How long do we have to listen to your sides crazy talk? I mean we still have crazy old coots in DC that think the Russians are the USSR and will invade West Germany any minute now so I get old people like you are stuck in some sort of paranoid dungeon of the mind. But there is no reason we need to listen to your sides dementia.

180 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 5:40:51am

re: #178 Destro

The West Bank is considered occupied territory both by the Israeli courts and under international law.

Untrue. It is considered disputed territory, and there is a huge difference.

Why should only one side be allowed to build and live there? What is it about Jews living in Judea that could possibly be illegal?

181 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 5:43:56am

re: #175 Gus

There is a conflict and mane people have been killed. Yet no genocide.

But there have been definite calls for genocide. And the group being threatened with that genocide has experienced actual genocide in the last 80 years. They have learned to take what the enemy says seriously.

182 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 5:54:40am

re: #179 Destro

Absent nuclear weapons

The point is that once they have them, and all indications are that they seek them, it is too late.

Israel cannot wait until it is too late. The stakes are too high.

Iran has threatened Israel's existence and seeks the weapon to wipe her off the map.

History shows us that the threat cannot be ignored until it is too late.

You really believe that a country sitting on an ocean of oil needs nuclear power so badly that they are willing to create this huge international threat? They need it so badly that they are willing to spend the millions of dollars they don't have (should be spent domestically)?

No. Sorry. When the enemy says they want to kill you, and they are creating the weapon capable of that clearly stated goal, then you have to be suicidal to ignore it.

183 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:24:18am

re: #165 Destro

Iran is nowhere near having nukes. There is a greater chance Israel and the earth will be hit my a meteor than Iran nuking Israel in the next 30 years.

And you know this how? Because you know what the Iranians are doing at Parchin or Natanz? You believe what the mullahs are saying? Intuition? Wishful thinking?

This is what we do know. Iran has several thousand centrifuges operating. They are IR1 and IR2 designs, which are based on Pakistani designs. They've already enriched quantities to LEU. It's a function of time to enrich. The more time you have, the higher the enrichment levels can be accomplished. Therefore, it's a function of time until they have sufficient quantities for a nuclear device.

Also, if Iran isn't seeking nuclear weapons, why are they doing tests at Parchin - a military complex - for triggers?

Thanks for playing though...

184 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:30:18am

re: #175 Gus

Indeed. Genocide means specifically targeting a population based on race, ethnicity, culture, religion and engaging in mass murder.

Democide is a more generalized term to describe murdering of groups, including those in the subcategory of genocide by a state actor.

Syria is currently engulfed in a civil war and war crimes and crimes against humanity are underway, but it isn't a genocide. It isn't a democide. The situation could still turn into a democide - say if Assad gains the upper hand and then wipes out entire civilian populations of former rebel-held territories - say Hama, Aleppo, or Daraa because of their support of the rebels.

But as you note - Israel has not now, nor ever, engaged in genocide. Several thousand casualties plus hundreds killed (the overwhelming majority terrorists) among Palestinians over the span of decades isn't genocide by any definition. Palestinian propagandists expropriated the language for their own terms. That's why they'll refer to any kind of casualties inflicted by Israel as a Holocaust or genocide. It not only minimizes what really happened in the Holocaust (the systematic destruction of the Jewish people across Europe by the Germans), but undermines one of the rationales for establishing Israel in the first place.

185 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:38:04am

re: #183 lawhawk

And basing your entire view of Iran's nuclear intentions on the language of Israeli Minister Barak? There's a wide range of views on Iran and its nuclear program, let alone whether Israel should unilaterally carry out attacks against Iran to stop its nuclear program. Even those opposed to an Israeli unilateral strike note that Iran is developing the nuclear weapons capabilities.

PM Netenyahu says Iran's developing the capabilities. Iran's shown a willingness to work on long range missiles capable of hitting Israel (as well as every other Arab capital through the Middle East). Other countries, including Saudi Arabia are concerned about Iran's nuclear program because it threatens them as much as it does Israel. In fact, Saudi Arabia had announced that they'd obtain nuclear weapons from Pakistan should Iran declare itself to have obtained nuclear weapons to deter Iran. That's rather telling - the Saudis aren't concerned about Israel's nuclear capabilities but Iran.

186 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 7:49:00am

re: #180 Buck

Untrue. It is considered disputed territory, and there is a huge difference.

Why should only one side be allowed to build and live there? What is it about Jews living in Judea that could possibly be illegal?

You are right, there was a shift from calling it "occupied to disputed" in an attempt to legitimize a land grab but international law says otherwise.

187 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 7:51:10am

re: #181 Buck

But there have been definite calls for genocide. And the group being threatened with that genocide has experienced actual genocide in the last 80 years. They have learned to take what the enemy says seriously.

Iran is nowhere near the power Germany was, which carried out a genocide on territories it conquered by force of arms. How many divisions do you think Iran - if we accept your assertions that that is what Iran wants - genocide - can get over the Euphrates and Tigris rivers? I say zero.

188 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 7:55:03am

re: #182 Buck

The point is that once they have them, and all indications are that they seek them, it is too late.

Israel cannot wait until it is too late. The stakes are too high.

Iran has threatened Israel's existence and seeks the weapon to wipe her off the map.

History shows us that the threat cannot be ignored until it is too late.

You really believe that a country sitting on an ocean of oil needs nuclear power so badly that they are willing to create this huge international threat? They need it so badly that they are willing to spend the millions of dollars they don't have (should be spent domestically)?

No. Sorry. When the enemy says they want to kill you, and they are creating the weapon capable of that clearly stated goal, then you have to be suicidal to ignore it.

That is like the stupid 1% Doctrine argument Cheney gave Bush to justify the Iraq invasion against non-existing Iraq WMD.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Why are we still listening to proven loser ideologies like yours?

189 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 7:57:47am

re: #185 lawhawk

And basing your entire view of Iran's nuclear intentions on the language of Israeli Minister Barak?

Whose view should we base it on if the mother fucking Israeli Defense Minister is not good enough? Is "Curveball" available? See #179.

[Link: transcripts.cnn.com...]

BLITZER: What -- what does that mean, that the ayatollah has not given the order to build a nuclear bomb?

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

[Link: [Link: www.haaretz.com...]...]

Defense Minister Ehud Barak was quoted on Thursday as saying he does not view Iran as a threat to Israel's existence, a view that would seem to depart from Israeli statements of the recent past.

Israel's mass-circulation Yedioth Ahronoth daily quoted Barak, the head of Israel's centre-left Labour party, as saying "Iran does not constitute an existential threat against Israel."

[Link: [Link: www.juancole.com...]...]

Israel: No Iranian Nuclear Weapons Program;

190 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 8:25:56am

re: #189 Destro

You can play pick and choose all you want. Barak's not infalliable, even if he's the Defense Minister. Others in Israel's defense and intel establishment think Iran is working on nukes, including the Mossad and Shin Bet (both are part of the intel side whose job it is to find out what Iran's up to).

Moreover, Barak views can be justified as an attempt to downplay the possibility of an Israeli strike against Iran because he doesn't think Israel has the pieces in place to make one work - a view shared by others who do think that Iran is working on a nuclear weapon.

Nice try though.

191 Gus  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 8:46:16am

re: #181 Buck

But there have been definite calls for genocide. And the group being threatened with that genocide has experienced actual genocide in the last 80 years. They have learned to take what the enemy says seriously.

Yes. From the extremists and towards Israel.

192 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 9:16:52am

re: #190 lawhawk

You can play pick and choose all you want. Barak's not infalliable, even if he's the Defense Minister. Others in Israel's defense and intel establishment think Iran is working on nukes, including the Mossad and Shin Bet (both are part of the intel side whose job it is to find out what Iran's up to).

Moreover, Barak views can be justified as an attempt to downplay the possibility of an Israeli strike against Iran because he doesn't think Israel has the pieces in place to make one work - a view shared by others who do think that Iran is working on a nuclear weapon.

Nice try though.

Pick and choose? Barak is the Israeli Defense Minister! It's his job! You are the one who is picking and choosing sources to back your position rather than accept reality as it is. That is just like the Bushies did to justify their Iraq war, pick and chose intelligence that backed their assertions.

193 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 9:57:12am

re: #186 Destro

You are right, there was a shift from calling it "occupied to disputed" in an attempt to legitimize a land grab but international law says otherwise.

That is YOUR biased opinion on why.

However you are only entitled to your opinion not your own facts.

The land was returned to the Jews. It was occupied by Jordan in 1948 and real ethnic cleansing took place. An actual war crime. The land was recovered by Israel in 1967. At no time was the title or deed transferred to anyone else. According to international law, it is Israel. It was part of the land that Britain had a mandate to help the Jews turn into a country.

There is nothing in international law that says otherwise.

No UN resolution, no judgement.

In fact International law says what is done cannot be undone. That land was in 1920 transferred (returned) to the historical owners.

After that time, many Arabs immigrated en masse to the desolate region to take advantage of the economic development created by the Zionists. Arabs constituted 37 percent of the total immigration to pre-state Israel. The descendants of Arabs who immigrated in pursuit of jobs and economic opportunity are not the indigenous people of the region. The Jews are.

Why is it that in your opinion only Jews are not allowed to live there? How can you justify rewarding a continuing a policy of ethnic cleansing?

194 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 10:17:34am

AND most importantly, you hang your hat on "Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged that Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor is trying to make them."

YET no where in your PBS link does Ehud Barak actually say ANYTHING like that. In fact he does exactly the opposite. Clearly saying that Iran is trying to do enough work to try and make nuclear weapons before the world can realize it. Hoping to get past the line (into "the zone of immunity, beyond which Israel might not be technically capable of launching a surgical operation").

So please stop putting words into Ehud Baraks mouth.

195 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:52:43am

re: #193 Buck

Here is a fact for you. Israel was recognized as a UN member. The official borders of Israel as far as the international community is concerned are those at the time it entered the UN. Now it is a negotiation between Israel, her neighbors and the Palestinian Authority about what those borders will end up being but to claim that the West Bank was always Israel's is false.

196 Destro  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:54:43am

re: #194 Buck

AND most importantly, you hang your hat on "Israeli Defense Minister Ehud Barak acknowledged that Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor is trying to make them."

YET no where in your PBS link does Ehud Barak actually say ANYTHING like that. In fact he does exactly the opposite. Clearly saying that Iran is trying to do enough work to try and make nuclear weapons before the world can realize it. Hoping to get past the line (into "the zone of immunity, beyond which Israel might not be technically capable of launching a surgical operation").

So please stop putting words into Ehud Baraks mouth.

Here you go PBS link had the exact same transcript from CNN:

BLITZER: What -- what does that mean, that the ayatollah has not given the order to build a nuclear bomb?

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

[Link: transcripts.cnn.com...]

197 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 11:57:13am

re: #195 Destro

Here is a fact for you. Israel was recognized as a UN member. The official borders of Israel as far as the international community is concerned are those at the time it entered the UN. Now it is a negotiation between Israel, her neighbors and the Palestinian Authority about what those borders will end up being but to claim that the West Bank was always Israel's is false.

Again false. There is nothing in International Law that says anything like that.

In fact one of the first things that the UN did is accept all the resolutions and agreements of the League of Nations.
AND that was a Mandate to return that land to the Jews.

At this point you are just making shit up.

198 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 12:01:21pm

re: #196 Destro

Here you go PBS link had the exact same transcript from CNN:

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

That the Supreme leader has not publicly given the order doesn't mean anything even close to the same thing as "Iran neither has nuclear weapons nor is trying to make them."

Not even close to the same thing.

The rest of the quote makes clear that Ehud Barak believes that Iran is going forward anyway.

199 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 12:25:00pm

Imagine that a drug house is to be demolished by the appropriate authorities.

A group of people who think they are doing right send a young girl to go inside the demolition area and in front of the bulldozer hoping that someone will notice and stop.

They don't, and a tragic death occurs.

I blame the people who sent her into the dangerous area.

Now Destro might think that the evil Israelis were just going around demolishing random houses without any authority in law. And maybe Corrie thought so as well.

However some of us know better. We know not to give that view any credence.

Israel is a true democracy, with an independent legal system and a free press. The Palestinian Arabs of Gaza? Not so much.

I believe Israel.

200 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 12:47:34pm

re: #190 lawhawk

You can play pick and choose all you want. Barak's not infalliable, even if he's the Defense Minister. Others in Israel's defense and intel establishment think Iran is working on nukes, including the Mossad and Shin Bet (both are part of the intel side whose job it is to find out what Iran's up to).

And in the end Barak never actually said anything even close to what Destro is saying that he did.

201 lawhawk  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 1:19:23pm

You know what Destro, you miss the entire context of what Barak said to Blitzer in that CNN transcript.

How about a fuller reading:

BARAK: I think that in general terms about the intelligence, we are on the same page. In the rhetoric and the -- I don't know how to call it, observation, we are on the same page. We both know that Iran is determined to turn nuclear. We both know that Khamenei did not yet ordered, actually, to give a weapon, but that he is determined to deceit and defy the whole world.

We all are convinced and say publicly that Iran should not be allowed to turn nuclear and that all options should remain on the table.

BLITZER: What -- what does that mean, that the ayatollah has not given the order to build a nuclear bomb?

BARAK: It's something technical. He did not tell his people start and build it -- a weapon on -- an explodable device. We think that we understand why he -- the -- he does not give this order.

He believes that he is penetrated through our intelligence and he strongly feels that if he tries to order, we will know it, we and you and some other intelligence services will know about it and it might end up with a physical action against it.

In other words, Israel and Barak believe that Iran's obfuscating and hiding its intentions because Iran believes that it's been penetrated by Mossad or others who would signal back to Israel that such activities have been undertaken at the order from the highest level. Israel isn't buying the Iranian claims one iota. That includes Barak. So, Israel believes that Iran's doing whatever it can without an express order to build X nuclear devices. It undertakes tests on trigger devices, individual components, etc., all while it gains expertise on enrichment - where time + material = nuclear device.

Along with everyone else in the Israeli political and intel/defense establishment. The difference is how to address the problem.

And it wasn't all that long ago - that would be April 30, 2012 - that Barak was saying Iran is pursuing nuclear weapons.

Israel's defence minister Ehud Barak restated the case for a military strike on Iran's nuclear programme before it reaches the "immunity zone", dismissing criticism from the country's former intelligence chief that political leaders were misleading the public over the consequences of action.

"I believe it is well understood in Washington, as well as in Jerusalem, that as long as there is an existential threat to our people, all options to prevent Iran from getting nuclear weapons should remain on the table," Barak told a meeting of the Foreign Press Association.

But in a clear reference to former Shin Bet chief Yuval Diskin's comments, he added: "Parts of the world, including some politically motivated Israeli figures, prefer to bury their heads in the sand."

Most Israelis think that Iran's intent to obtain nukes, but differ over how to deal with the threat - whether to go unilaterally or by international action as well as when to deal with it - before/after US elections.

Meanwhile, UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon is in Tehran, and he's called on Iran to not only stop its incendiary language about destroying Israel, but to come clean about its nuclear program.

202 Buck  Wed, Aug 29, 2012 6:55:57pm

U.S. teenager Abigail Leitel, 14, was killed that same week. She was a victim of an arab Palestinian. She was not trying to stop anyone from doing anything. She was just riding the bus. In fact, Abigail was on her way to a friend's house from her school when a person stepped on the same bus, looked at her, and decided that it was at that moment that they wanted to murder and maim the people around them.

It is in fact the ongoing Palestinian and Muslim extremist violence against civilians that has driven the cycle of violence for the last 50 years.

203 Flavia  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:22:54am

re: #43 Locker

This is bullshit. All this talk about how she's fostering terrorism by blocking a bulldozer?

Ask any construction foreman in the country and they'll tell you they don't drive heavy equipment around a site when there are people walking around. This was completely avoidable with a bit of due diligence.

Is it dangerous to walk around heavy equipment, yes. Should a driver of a 10 ton bulldozer ignore the fact that their are people walking around his job site? No.

Do I hear a single person "speaking for Israel" who actually seems to give a shit that a person died vs a chance to slam the other side? No.

This... is bullshit.

What's bull is your rant.

Yes, she was fostering terrorism by trying to safeguard an arms-smuggling tunnel. Did you really ignore what the IDF was doing their in the first place.

The "due diligence" should have been for the protestors to not be stupid.

You seem to be suggesting that Israel should stop looking for/destroying arms-smuggling tunnels because people are trying to stop them. Rather counter-productive to safeguarding their own citizens, which is the job of any country. Add to this the fact that, when she STOOD in front of the bulldozer, the driver saw her & stopped. This is a major point that most people seem to forget.

I haven't heard anyone "speaking for Israel" who has acted as if /she don't care that someone got killed; we're just irritated about where the blame is getting placed.

204 Flavia  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:32:33am

re: #179 Destro

Between citing Juan Cole & calling me senile & demented, you have lost any right to have anyone speak to you with any degree of politeness on this or any other subject.

205 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:14:13am

re: #204 Flavia

Between citing Juan Cole & calling me senile & demented, you have lost any right to have anyone speak to you with any degree of politeness on this or any other subject.

Juan Cole is the devil? In any case the link to Juan Cole's website is for another link to an Israeli website.

So why don't you like primary sources?

And let's not forget Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak telling CNN's Wolf Blitzer Iran has not started a nuclear weapons program. I would think Israel's Defense Minister trumps all other sources you cling to.

206 Buck  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:19:20am

re: #205 Destro

And let's not forget Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak telling CNN's Wolf Blitzer Iran has not started a nuclear weapons program. I would think Israel's Defense Minister trumps all other sources you cling to.

It has been shown to you how incredibly untrue that is.


No where does Israel's Defense Minister Ehud Barak tell CNN's Wolf Blitzer ( or anyone else) Iran has not started a nuclear weapons program.

That the Supreme leader has not publicly given the order doesn't mean anything even close to the same thing as "Iran has not started a nuclear weapons program."

Not even close to the same thing.

The rest of the quote makes clear that Ehud Barak believes that Iran is going forward anyway. He is clear that he believes Iran has started a nuclear weapons program.

207 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:22:21am

re: #201 lawhawk

[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

Israel military chief: Iran not pursuing nuclear weapon

Israel’s military chief toned down the rhetoric over Iran’s nuclear programme on Wednesday, describing the Iranian leadership as “very rational” and unlikely to take the decision to build a bomb.

Speaking to the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper, Lieutenant General Benny Gantz said Iran was systematically approaching the point at which it would be able to decide on whether to build a bomb, but had not yet made that decision.

“It still hasn’t decided yet whether to go the extra mile,” he said.

Barak, it said, does not categorically oppose 20 percent enrichment of uranium by Iran under complete supervision and is willing to accept 3.5 percent enrichment, while Netanyahu “opposes any enrichment of uranium by Iran.”

Reports of an apparent rift were confirmed by a senior Israeli official, who spoke to AFP on condition of anonymity.

“General Gantz is only repeating publicly what military leaders, including his predecessor General Gabi Ashkenazi, have continuously told the politicians in the last few years,” he said.

“Ehud Barak has evolved and seems more moderate. And (Foreign Minister) Avigdor Lieberman recently told Israeli reporters it was necessary to give a chance to the economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure, that we must give it time and not hurry,” he said.

“In fact, the prime minister is somewhat isolated on Iran,” he said.

208 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:26:43am

re: #206 Buck

[Link: www.rawstory.com...]

Israel military chief: Iran not pursuing nuclear weapon

Israel’s military chief toned down the rhetoric over Iran’s nuclear programme on Wednesday, describing the Iranian leadership as “very rational” and unlikely to take the decision to build a bomb.

Speaking to the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper, Lieutenant General Benny Gantz said Iran was systematically approaching the point at which it would be able to decide on whether to build a bomb, but had not yet made that decision.

“It still hasn’t decided yet whether to go the extra mile,” he said.

Barak, it said, does not categorically oppose 20 percent enrichment of uranium by Iran under complete supervision and is willing to accept 3.5 percent enrichment, while Netanyahu “opposes any enrichment of uranium by Iran.”

Reports of an apparent rift were confirmed by a senior Israeli official, who spoke to AFP on condition of anonymity.

“General Gantz is only repeating publicly what military leaders, including his predecessor General Gabi Ashkenazi, have continuously told the politicians in the last few years,” he said.

“Ehud Barak has evolved and seems more moderate. And (Foreign Minister) Avigdor Lieberman recently told Israeli reporters it was necessary to give a chance to the economic sanctions and diplomatic pressure, that we must give it time and not hurry,” he said.

“In fact, the prime minister is somewhat isolated on Iran,” he said.

I liked this comment by Peter No Tail:

First, Iraq had WMDs.
No WMDs, so then Iraq had WMD programs.
No WMD programs, so then Iraq had WMD material.
No WMD material, so then Iraq had WMD-related program activities (whatever that means).

First, Iran had nukes.
No nukes, so then Iran had a nuclear bomb program.
No nuke program, so then Iran was close to developing material for nukes.
Now, Iran [is] systematically approaching the point at which it would be able to decide on whether to build a bomb, but had not yet made that decision. (Whatever that means. i guess it means "Iran does not have nukes BUT they might possibly, sometime in the future, reach a point where they'll be able decide whether or not to build one.")

See a pattern?

209 Buck  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:34:19am

re: #208 Destro

Look, we are going to limit the use of quotes to actual quotes. Maybe there are people who will let you use mind reading, but we need to agree that HERE you will use actual quotes when you quote someone.

This applies to Peter Tail as well.

There is no pattern there because that is not what people are saying.

210 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 9:47:35am

re: #209 Buck

Look, we are going to limit the use of quotes to actual quotes.

You mean like the above article's quotes to actual quote? "Speaking to the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper, Lieutenant General Benny Gantz"

Cognitive Dissonance is a strong force to counter act if you are an advocate rather than an independent.

211 Buck  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 10:00:36am

re: #210 Destro

You mean like the above article's quotes to actual quote? "Speaking to the left-leaning Haaretz newspaper, Lieutenant General Benny Gantz"

Cognitive Dissonance is a strong force to counter act if you are an advocate rather than an independent.

Correct. No actual quote from Lieutenant General Benny Gantz. You have CNN and NPR all making up their mind reading of Ehud Barak. It is very likely that this left leaning newspaper does not actually provide a quote or context because they are playing with words.


So, for example, I assemble all the things I need to build a bomb. I get the Van, I fill the barrels with the fertilizer. I buy the diesel fuel and store it. I threaten people that I think they will be dead soon enough, and that I think they should be wiped from the planet.

Now you might try and read my mind that I am not planning to build a bomb. After all I don't have all the elements in one place yet.

However you agree that once I assemble the detonators, load everything up in the van and park it in the parking structure of the skyscraper it is too late to stop me. Of course only then will you really know that I was all along planning to build a bomb. However you can safely say that there was no proof I had really decided to go through with it.

See how that works?

212 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:32:11am

re: #211 Buck

First, Iraq had WMDs.
No WMDs, so then Iraq had WMD programs.
No WMD programs, so then Iraq had WMD material.
No WMD material, so then Iraq had WMD-related program activities (whatever that means).

First, Iran had nukes.
No nukes, so then Iran had a nuclear bomb program.
No nuke program, so then Iran was close to developing material for nukes.
Now, Iran [is] systematically approaching the point at which it would be able to decide on whether to build a bomb, but had not yet made that decision. (Whatever that means. i guess it means "Iran does not have nukes BUT they might possibly, sometime in the future, reach a point where they'll be able decide whether or not to build one.")

See a pattern?

213 Buck  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:33:48am

re: #212 Destro

There is no pattern there because that is not what people are saying.

214 researchok  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:38:11am

re: #212 Destro

More bullshit.

No WMD material, so then Iraq had WMD-related program activities (whatever that means).

WMD equipment was found buried and hidden away in various locationbs.

Iraq had used WMD's.

Now you can pivot and attack.

215 Destro  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:46:36am

re: #214 researchok

More bullshit.

WMD equipment was found buried and hidden away in various locationbs.

Iraq had used WMD's.

Now you can pivot and attack.

Seriously? You are claiming Iraq had WMD stockpiles with the odd rusting forgotten shell here and there? What next? The Russkies helped Saddam smuggle his WMD stockpile to Syria?

That is right out of the Bush right wing defense squad handbook bullshit.

[Link: articles.cnn.com...]

Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them, a CIA report concludes.

216 Buck  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:05:28pm

This is taking a strange turn. You can't say that these two things are the same. Just because Saddam fooled a lot of people into thinking he had more WMD capability than he really did has absolutely nothing to do with Iran.

From your link:

The massive report does say, however, that Iraq worked hard to cheat on United Nations-imposed sanctions and retain the capability to resume production of weapons of mass destruction at some time in the future.

"[Saddam] wanted to end sanctions while preserving the capability to reconstitute his weapons of mass destruction when sanctions were lifted," a summary of the report says.

This is a serious warning. Yes, he didn't have the ability to deliver actual WMD at that moment. He had demonstrated that IF he did, he would use it. He did so in the past, and there was no reason to think he wouldn't in the future. AND he was making sure not to give up the ability to assemble it as soon as sanctions were lifted.

The real lesson from the report is that "Iraq's WMD program was essentially destroyed in 1991 and Saddam ended Iraq's nuclear program after the 1991 Gulf War." Why was it destroyed? Because it existed. How was it destroyed? With a military solution.

217 researchok  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 12:41:34pm

re: #215 Destro

More bullshit. more deceit.


I never said stockpiles of WMD's were found.

LIAR

218 Bob Levin  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 1:18:40pm

re: #216 Buck

Now would be a good time to step aside.

219 Flavia  Thu, Aug 30, 2012 11:23:58pm

re: #214 researchok

More bullshit.

WMD equipment was found buried and hidden away in various locationbs.

Iraq had used WMD's.

Now you can pivot and attack.

If Iraq didn't have WMDs, how did all those Kurds die?
(Please note, I know what most people think of when they say "WMD", but toxic gas is a WMD)


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