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Iraq Study Group Will Call for Pullout

Thu, Nov 30, 2006 at 8:39:34 am PST

The Iraq Study Group, according to the New York Times, is going to recommend retreat with honor. Or withdrawal with dignity. Something Vietnam-flavored, for the new, not-at-war America. 15 Brigades Would Gradually Stand Down Under Plan.

WASHINGTON, Nov. 29 — The bipartisan Iraq Study Group reached a consensus on Wednesday on a final report that will call for a gradual pullback of the 15 American combat brigades now in Iraq but stop short of setting a firm timetable for their withdrawal, according to people familiar with the panel’s deliberations.

The report, unanimously approved by the 10-member panel, led by James A. Baker III and Lee H. Hamilton, is to be delivered to President Bush next week. It is a compromise between distinct paths that the group has debated since March, avoiding a specific timetable, which has been opposed by Mr. Bush, but making it clear that the American troop commitment should not be open-ended. The recommendations of the group, formed at the request of members of Congress, are nonbinding.

A person who participated in the commission’s debate said that unless the government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki believed that Mr. Bush was under pressure to pull back troops in the near future, “there will be zero sense of urgency to reach the political settlement that needs to be reached.”

The report recommends that Mr. Bush make it clear that he intends to start the withdrawal relatively soon, and people familiar with the debate over the final language said the implicit message was that the process should begin sometime next year.

UPDATE at 11/30/06 8:59:09 am:

The President says, “forget it:” Bush Dismisses Iraq Panel’s Pullback Plan.

AMMAN, Jordan, Nov. 30 — President Bush today proclaimed Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki “the right guy for Iraq,” and said the two had agreed to speed the turnover of security responsibility from American to Iraqi forces. But Mr. Bush dismissed a reported decision by an independent bipartisan panel to call for a gradual withdrawal of troops.

“I know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq,” the president said during a joint news conference with Mr. Maliki, referring to the panel’s reports that are expected next week. “We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done so long as the government wants us there.”

Mr. Bush also said he and Mr. Maliki would oppose any plan to break up the country, which is riven by sectarian violence. The two appeared together after an hourlong breakfast meeting with aides at the Four Seasons Hotel here that was followed by a 45-minute one-on-one session.

UPDATE at 11/30/06 9:05:27 am:

But the Associated Press tries to spin it the other way: Bush agrees to speedy turnover in Iraq.

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277 comments

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1 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:40:08am
2 Dustoff-507  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:40:47am

So everything remains the same?

3 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:40:51am

Baker is a Buchananite

Love the Arabs, Hate the Jews

Nativist Isolationists

4 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:41:50am

I have no ability to speak today.
I can only DJ the madness.

5 Fast Eddie  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:42:47am

I guess all those folks in Iraq who didn't believe the Americans are feeling pretty smart.

6 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:42:58am

osama said it, the Americans will fold.

Congrats, Media and Demonrats, now I will just wait for when they come for YOU (because YOU are the ones who will go down first, you know that).

7 FredLee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:43:06am

They should ask Israel to borrow one of their Orwellian names for retreat like "disengagement" or "realignment" so that the Global Jihad won't be fueled by the enormous victory.

It sure worked in Gaza, didn't it?

8 Maximu§  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:43:07am

So this is it huh?

Im trying to stay positive, but it gets harder and harder.

Maximu§
3/11 ACR
Blackhorse Trooper

9 DIAMONDMASC  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:43:21am

History repeats itself, craven and self serving politicians putting themselves above the best interests of the people merely to hold on to power, when we are having daily suicide bombers on busses in LA and chicago, maybe they will look back and say, "maybe we made a mistake in withdrawal" HUH, who am I kidding.

10 jaynumber13  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:43:40am

Why don't they say they don't want America (and the rest of the Enlightened world) to win? We could win with ease; we're just choosing not to.

11 Orbit Rain  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:43:43am

"but making it clear that the American troop commitment should not be open-ended"

...eternal vigilance people...the price of freedom..."eternal" is pretty open ended...unless you plan on giving up on freedom.

12 Ben Hur  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:44:20am

Nice example of leadership by our pres.

13 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:44:29am

So UnElected Bakerite Buchananites have the ear of the MSM and the new DEM congress?

Will Bush agree with them?

any more implausibles ///

14 uncle_monkey  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:44:32am
The report, unanimously approved by the 10-member panel, led by James A. Baker III and Lee H. Hamilton, is to be delivered to President Bush next week.

In a paper bag which they'll light on fire after they ring the doorbell.

Glad somebody's looking out for us.

15 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:45:12am

Nazis, Liberals, and Terrorists all Agree!

16 Sandy P  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:45:28am

Some on Bros. Judd have been pointing out for a long time that we needed to get in, do and get out and let them handle it.

At least the Sauds and Iranians will be going at it.

the 1 think we have to remember about our Revolution, we had help, but we did most of the fighting, they're not yet. They need to, we've done most of Europe's fighting and look how they turned out.

17 religion of bacon  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:45:49am

Bush is under no obligation to act on the recommendations of the "study group," correct?

18 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:46:00am

And, by the way, this is DISRESPECT for ALL the Fallen Warriors.

Eternal shame on the cowards.
Eternal shame on the subversives.
Eternal shame on any politician who will bend to the muslim terrorists.

P-L is going ballistic now.

19 Markx  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:46:07am

Ah... the cut and run with honor option.

20 lawhawk  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:46:46am

Bush already said that he would not agree with the ISG finding...

21 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:47:01am

this unelected bunch better not be using tax payer dollars

who cares what they think - no one paid them (?) or elected them

seriously if this neo nazi bunch have any weight its kinda ridiculous and means our govt doesnt work an is not democratic

22 Elric66  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:47:13am
#12 Ben Hur 11/30/2006 08:44AM PST

Nice example of leadership by our pres.

Bush is going to go down as one of our worse presidents. Not because the left hate him, but because he abandoned the republican party; especially the conservatives.

23 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:47:45am

#20 lawhawk

That's why the MSM is trumping people they hate

24 jwm  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:47:49am

al quaida will crow
The madhi will gloat
The snake throws another coil around the West
and squeezes a little tighter.

JWM

25 EC Marm  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:04am

Gradual pullback and deployment toward the east sounds good to me. Park those troops 20 miles from the border with Iran and things might begin to cool down in Iraq. The rhetoric in Iran might cool down a bit, too. We've had troops in South Korea for over 50 years acting as a hair trigger. I'm not sure if the Iranians understand the concept but I'm sure the U.S. military would educate them quickly.

26 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:07am

democratic congress, the new French.

27 shug  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:10am

Pull out next week. Pull em all out. Let them kill each other. Take the billion a week pricetag and give me a tax cut.

Spend the money left over on America, build a wall around America. Tap the mosques. Tap the Imams. Stop all immigration from all Middle Eastern Countries. Deport all those with ties to terror or terror states. Put the national guard on the borders. Shoot people invading America.

28 Ben Hur  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:12am

Great idea.

Let's ask some dinosaurs from the Cold War era how to fight the post 9/11 war of the future.

We need new blood.

29 Golem Akbar  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:30am

If there is no timetable, then what is different? We can withdraw when the time is right. When the time is right, and not before.

30 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:48:56am

Programming alert:
Michael Fumento on Brian and the Judge right now taking phone calls.
Fox News Radio
He discussed the non-airstrike in Ramadi widely reported

31 dll2000  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:49:22am

I doubt the jihadist will declare victory. Should be quite honorable.

Glad we didnt attack Sadir while he was shooting at us from Mosques or escalate the war by attacking Iran or Syria.

Instead they just attacked us through proxies and used our own press as a propaganda tool against us.

Supplied Jihadi's and bombs and ammo and we did nothing.

Way to win baby!

32 RadicalRon  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:49:37am

I'm waiting to see how deep the Jooooos are eeevil; death to Israel comments are buried.

33 wanumba  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:50:26am

The Democrats:
Selling out the military's hard-earned gains, then drafting our nation's daughters to take the place of professional soldiers.

Can we all stop inhaling the opiate that the MSM is pushing on us and shake off the illusion so we can deal with reality?

34 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:51:18am

"Peace in our time".

/spit!

35 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:51:30am

BAKER: HERES THE PLAN!

1. THROW THE JEWS TO THE DOGS

2. DRAG TAIL AND RUN HOME

3. KISS THE ARABS ON THE CHEEKS

4. ASK THE TERRORISTS TO BE NICE

questions:

1. who financed this study group?

2. why does it have and who is giving it any clout on an elected govt?
(those who agree with it i.e. MSM)

3. if credence or money is or has been given to these elitists oligarchs it is a travesty of popular democratic consititutional government and law

MSM are liberal opportunists - embrace anyone who furthers their agenda - no morals, dignity or integrity

36 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:51:49am

is baker the modern chamberlain?

37 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:51:52am

September Eleven 2001

NEVER FORGIVE
NEVER FORGET

United 93 was flying over my head and the heads of my Wife and my Family: I WILL NEVER FORGET THEM,
for me it will be LET'S ROLL until I die.
And after I die.

SHAME ON THE COWARDS !

38 Just_A_Grunt  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:52:01am

Mr Fumento: 3 week invasion complete success
and now talking about a guy who wrote a book about the Al Anbar province, who had never been there. Of course it is total failure.

39 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:52:10am

Maybe sKerry can negotiate with OBL, or al-Sadr.

/traitor

40 Golem Akbar  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:52:50am

The minute there is one terror attack in the US, it's all over folks. If the Islamists would keep to Asia or Europe, the US wouldn't care a fig. But bring it here, and all hell will break loose. America is asleep right now. But it won't last.

41 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:53:14am
42 Canadian Imperialist Running Dog  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:53:35am

I see the Iraq study group is once again studying the wrong things....

before withdrawing any troops, can with give al-sadr a christmas surprise....

43 Rancher  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:53:36am

I’ve been pretty pessimistic about the war, feeling that the elections meant we would cut and run. The stacked Baker report also fueled my sentiments. Bush however has been setting parameters on what he would accept from the commission, a timed withdrawal and talking to the Iranians are both non starters. Looks like he will remain firm, the Dems will have to cut the funding if they are so set on surrender.

44 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:53:54am

#35 MGlazer

questions:

1. who financed this study group?

Probably the saudis, they are behind all these whores of politics.

The Army must defend the Constitution and defend America, the Army is the sole hope of the West.

45 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:01am

Cowards: 3 step plan

1. Pressure Israel - appease arab's blood lust

2. Play nice with Terrorists: AQ, iran, syria

3. high tail it home, bury head in sand and hope at least you dont get hurt

46 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:17am

OT -

Seen in today's Best Of The Web Today:

Jim Webb is an asshole:

At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia's newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn't long before Bush found him.

"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.

47 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:22am

I'm probably the contrarian here, but this sounds like spin on the part of the MSM to paint these findings as something new and a change from the "stay the course" policy.

But the plan from the very beginning, indeed the plan of almost every war, was to:

*pullback troops at the end,
*typically in a gradual manner,
*with no firm timetable.

No difference between "stay the course" and "pullout at some unspecified time in the future." The course IS and always was to turn over security and go home.

48 johnCV  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:28am

I am curious to see what Bush will do with this report.

If he accepts it, praises it and mouths platitudes and continues on in the current vein - I will be greatly impressed and pleased. However I fear he will take the 'recommendations' to heart and begin to cut and run redeploy them. If he does, he will lose that last shred of support and respect I have for him. Truly a lame duck if ever one quacked. He has decended from a Man of Honor to a politician (and I use that term in as derogatory and sense as possible).

As Powell said of Iraq "if you break it, you own it". Well if Bush caves and pulls the troops, the Dems/MSM/Libs now own the policy and fruits of thier 4 year long whine.

I hope it is bitter and foul - but thier corroded souls will never be able to tell.

49 gymnast  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:39am

The Baker Plan is a non-plan that will lead to disaster on a scale that can be imagined in biblical proportions.

50 Ward Cleaver  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:54:48am

If I were W, I would've knocked Webb's rug off.

51 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:55:01am

Under Pressure

Pressure pushing down on me
Pressing down on you no man ask for
Under pressure
That burns a building down
Splits a family in two
Puts people on streets

It's the terror of knowing
What this world is about
Watching some good friends
Screaming get me out!
Tomorrow takes me higher
Pressure on people
People on streets

Chippin' around
kick my brains round the floor
These are the days
It never rains but it pours
Ee do bay bup
Ee do bay ba bup
Ee do bup
Bay bup
People on streets
Dee da dee da day
People on streets
Dee da dee da dee da dee da

It's the terror of knowing
What this world is about
Watching some good friends
Screaming let me out!
Tomorrow takes me high high higher


Turned away from it all
Like the blind man
Sat on a fence but it don't work
Keep coming up with love
But it's so slashed and torn
Why why why?

(Love, love, love, love)

Insanity laughs under pressure we're cracking
Can't we give ourselves one more chance?
Why can't we give love that one more chance?
Why can't we give love give love give love?
Give love give love give love give love give love give love?
Cause love's such an old fashioned word
And love dares you to care
For the people on the edge of the night
And love dares you to change our way
Of caring about ourselves
This is our last dance


This is ourselves
Under Pressure
Under Pressure
Pressure

52 Peacekeeper  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:55:25am

Run Away! Run Away!

53 pat  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:55:41am

Losers

54 Elric66  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:56:06am
#46 Ward Cleaver 11/30/2006 08:54AM PST

OT -

Seen in today's Best Of The Web Today:

Jim Webb is an asshole:

At a recent White House reception for freshman members of Congress, Virginia's newest senator tried to avoid President Bush. Democrat James Webb declined to stand in a presidential receiving line or to have his picture taken with the man he had often criticized on the stump this fall. But it wasn't long before Bush found him.

"How's your boy?" Bush asked, referring to Webb's son, a Marine serving in Iraq.

"I'd like to get them out of Iraq, Mr. President," Webb responded, echoing a campaign theme.

"That's not what I asked you," Bush said. "How's your boy?"

"That's between me and my boy, Mr. President," Webb said coldly, ending the conversation on the State Floor of the East Wing of the White House.

Is this an example of the new civility the Dems were talking about?

55 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:56:36am

#43 Rancher

The elected president doesn't have to accept anything from some unelected privately financed (I hope) elitists old fools

It is the MSM, who agree with, and are pressing the issue as a straw man argument - "the group says this what does bush say..."

Anyone who cares about freedom and a govt by the people and for the people should be appalled by the credibility given by the MSM and others to this 'group'

56 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:56:42am

If we are going to pull out we should first kill Sadr.

57 Peacekeeper  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:56:44am

Babba
All your life is Time Magazine, Sesame Street,
What does it mean?

58 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:56:57am

#49 gymnast 11/30/2006 08:54AM PST

The Baker Plan is a non-plan that will lead to disaster on a scale that can be imagined in biblical proportions.

Correct

59 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:57:00am
A person who participated in the commission’s debate said that unless the government of Prime Minister Nuri Kamal al-Maliki believed that Mr. Bush was under pressure to pull back troops in the near future, “there will be zero sense of urgency to reach the political settlement that needs to be reached.”

What a complete load of BS.

60 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:57:04am

.

The report, unanimously approved by the 10-member panel,

The People will remember this.

/No, Special Agent, THIS IS NOT A THREAT, it's what these political [DELETED] are doing that is a Threat, TO YOU, TO YOUR FAMILY, TO YOUR COUNTRY.

61 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:58:09am

IMPEACH THE TRAITORS !

IMPEACH THE TRAITORS !

IMPEACH THE TRAITORS !

62 mglazer  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:58:09am

Public Protest burnings of this report is warranted

saying govt shouldn't be influenced by non elected ex pols

63 Pawn of The Oppressor  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:59:05am

Pulling Out and Not Finishing have become the two greatest dirty metaphors for our foreign policy.

Deep down, I had hoped that Bush wouldn't be such a coward. Hell, I hoped the COUNTRY wouldn't be so cowardly...

64 Kerfuffle  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:59:19am

Baker and Sandra Day 'O (what qualifies her on this anyway?!?!) want to surrender? Color me surprised.

The President is not compelled (nor should he) to follow this opinion. He won't be running again, therefore I see no reason that he shouldn't do the right thing here. Unless of course he want to be pop pop popular like Slick Willy. Then I will gnash my teeth and buy MUCH more ammo.

BTW... any chance of Mark Steyn guest hosting for Rush today -crosses fingers- Probably Paul W again.

65 Kragar (proud to be kafir)  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:59:29am

OT

Hezbollah calls for huge protests

The Lebanese militant group Hezbollah has called for a huge turnout for opposition protests aimed at bringing down the anti-Syrian government.

Sheikh Hassan Nasrallah called on Lebanese people to join protests and civil disobedience starting on Friday.

The government of PM Fouad Siniora has been under pressure over its backing for the setting up of a UN tribunal to try the killers of Rafik Hariri.

The government has said that it will not back down over the tribunal.

"We appeal to all Lebanese, from every region and political movement, to take part in a peaceful and civilised demonstration on Friday to rid us of an incapable government that has failed in its mission," Sheikh Nasrallah said in a television broadcast.

66 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:59:53am
67 Golem Akbar  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:00:11am

#44 Poitiers-Lepanto

1. who financed this study group?

Probably the saudis, they are behind all these whores of politics.

I don't have the link, sorry, but I read that the Saudis are worried that if the US withdraws too soon, they are afraid of Iran taking over parts of Iraq. Not sure what to make of that bit of info, if it is true, but it may mean a shift in Saudi policy sometime soon -- toward greater support for the president's efforts. They have more to lose than anyone if Iraq falls.

68 Elric66  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:00:41am

I e-mailed Prof Camp back. I asked him what he teaches about Islam. I doubt I will get a response.

69 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:00:56am
#22 Elric66
Bush is going to go down as one of our worse presidents. Not because the left hate him, but because he abandoned the republican party; especially the conservatives.


No, history will recognize GWB as one of the best presidents who did all the right things in extremely difficult circumstances.

It was the Republican Congress that messed up. And in this case it's the old guard Republicans and conservatives personified by James Baker who are betraying GWB.

The worst thing that Republicans could do for the next presidential elections is "go back to the conservative base" and leave the center for Hillary or Obama to play in.

Conservatives should stop whining and get their act together.

70 akak  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:01:02am

Condi will not stand for this, ...............she wants to give up even more.

71 aRedPhishHead  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:01:27am
saying govt shouldn't be influenced by non elected ex pols

Especially many of the same ones responsible for America's "peace through retreat" strategy in Vietnam.

Buffoons. AQ is surely intimidated by this show of "force" from the has-been crowd.

72 Ben Hur  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:01:36am

End US Aid to Tyrannical/Despotic arab/muslim Dictatorships!

73 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:01:43am

#63 PAWN

the COUNTRY wouldn't be so cowardly...

THE COUNTRY IS NOT !

The politicians and the media are stabbing America and the American Warriors !

Fuck the subversives, IMPEACH THE TRAITORS !

74 sngnsgt  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:02:01am

But, but, but, the 911 Commission says:

Democrats Reject Key 9/11 Panel Suggestion

75 Ben Hur  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:04am

Pope at Blue Mosque.

Don't tell anyone it was a central Church of the Christian Byzantine Empire.

76 Peacekeeper  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:19am

So I´m back to the velvet underground,
back to the floor that I love,
to a room with some lace and paper flowers,
Back to the gypsy that I was,
to the gypsy that I was,
doo, doo, doo, doo.
And it all comes down to you.
Well, you know that i does.
Well, lightning strikes,
maybe once, maybe twice.
Ah, and it lights up the night.
And you see your gypsy,
you see your gypsy.
To the gypsy that remains,
who faces dreedom with a little fear,
I have no fear, I have only love.
And if I was a child, and the child was enough,
enough for me to love, enough to love.
She is dncing away from me now.
She was just a wish,
she was just a wish,
And a memory is all that is left for you now.
You see your gypsy, oh,
you see your gypsy, ooh, ah.
you see your gypsy, you see your gypsy.

77 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:21am
78 shug  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:25am

If the White House refuses to fight , why stay?
Al-Sadr should be rounded up and shot. He is a terrorist.

Fallujah should have been leveled by airstrikes. Flatten it. DOn't send in Mrs Smith's son to get shot in this house to house shit.

FIght this war like the Muslims would. Ruthless. Like we fought the Nazis and Japs.

FOrget this PC, kinder , gentler war. As I see it, this will linger on forever since we appear to be doing it half-assed, and I have felt this from the moment our troops didn't shoot those looters and establish martial law immediatly after the initial invasion.
The insurgents figured out that we were weak of will ( not our troops, they are the best but our leaders )

So if we are not committed to kicking ass and winning, why stay there ?

79 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:32am

Bush did frigging nothing:
if he leaves office with a defeat and a nuclear iran he will be the worst president ever.

The giggling president.

80 Elric66  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:50am
#69 Peter Verkooijen 11/30/2006 09:00AM PST

#22 Elric66
Bush is going to go down as one of our worse presidents. Not because the left hate him, but because he abandoned the republican party; especially the conservatives.

No, history will recognize GWB as one of the best presidents who did all the right things in extremely difficult circumstances.

It was the Republican Congress that messed up. And in this case it's the old guard Republicans and conservatives personified by James Baker who are betraying GWB.

The worst thing that Republicans could do for the next presidential elections is "go back to the conservative base" and leave the center for Hillary or Obama to play in.

Conservatives should stop whining and get their act together.


Its the conservative base that wants an enforced border and to win in Iraq. Why do you think that many of the Dems that won ran right to their Republican oponent?

81 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:03:55am
82 Kerfuffle  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:04:13am

#75 Ben Hur

Hagia Sophia?

83 Elric66  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:05:18am
#79 Poitiers-Lepanto 11/30/2006 09:03AM PST

Bush did frigging nothing:
if he leaves office with a defeat and a nuclear iran he will be the worst president ever.

The giggling president.

I dont lay the blame of a nuclear iran all on Bush. There are many to blame for that.

84 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:07:46am

These friggin idiots don't understand that if we fold alqaeda will become a monstruous army with millions of volunteers and zillions of dollars in three seconds .

Idiots and traitors.


If we fold, September Eleven will be a JOKE compared to what will happen !

85 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:08:13am
86 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:08:13am
“We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done so long as the government wants us there.”

Gramscian language of decepto-speak that could mean 55 years or 11 seconds.

87 bubbasbbq  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:08:28am

How and when did we turn into a nation of pussies and cowards? I do not get it, they attack us and we refuse to fight. I just don't get it. We should be smashing things hard and nasty and we just keep acting like pussies and cowards.

88 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:08:41am

If Bush follows the Baker plan than every American life lost in Iraq was wasted, as he went to war to stop one terror supporting regime from building WMD, while allowing a far more egregious supporter of terror to not only build nuclear weapons, but become the de facto rulers of Iraq.


Bush will be as great a failure as Carter was (although most historians, being liberals, will give Carter far kinder treatment).


Imagine the M.E with a nuclear Iran, where the best case scenario is that Iran is merely content to use the nuclear weapons as a tool of extortion, or as a shield against attack, while it bullies it's neighbors.


What US President will risk nuclear war in the Persian Gulf, for example, and the resulting world economic collapse, if Iran decides it wants to invade Saudi Arabia?

89 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:09:52am

#83 Elric66

Are we here for semantics ?
yes, many are responsible, OK.

But one is the CiC now, his is the responsibility.

And when I say responsibility I don't mean "he should do what is politically possible". I mean he should do what America needs, period.

90 gymnast  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:09:56am

Did The Baker Plan use some form of LBJ bombing pause as a template? Or is it a new and improved form of lunacy. Perhaps one can be charitable, and say that the Baker Commission seeks to deal with the continuum of events on a discrete basis that does not concern itself with the events that it will take place as a result of it's recommendations. Will the White House send out a lemming to receive the report? Or a dead fish?

The report reminds me of the kind of thinking that suggests moving 10 gallons of a liquid without a container. All of it will be lost as it dribbles through histories fingers.

91 Golem Akbar  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:10:12am

#80 Elric66

Its the conservative base that wants an enforced border and to win in Iraq. Why do you think that many of the Dems that won ran right to their Republican oponent?

I think the Republican Party needs to embrace the center, and that way can win with some real solid ideas. It won't please everyone, but good people can differ on some details, as long as they agree on the core values. If the Republicans can only appeal to hard-core conservatives, they will be marginalized as a party of extreme radicals. It may be real politics but Republicans have to bring in a broader spectrum.

92 Yank in the EU  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:10:16am

#80 Elric66

The (R)s who ran on Tancredo-like platforms / anti-immigration got crushed in the last election. The race card played by the (D)s probably worked with voters. The president did sign off on the fence, something no (D) POTUS would do, and now it will likely be de-funded.

93 shug  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:10:17am
83 Elric66

#79 Poitiers-Lepanto
Bush did frigging nothing:
if he leaves office with a defeat and a nuclear iran he will be the worst president ever.

The giggling president.

I dont lay the blame of a nuclear iran all on Bush. There are many to blame for that.

yep. remember the grief he took when he referred to an axisof evil? Oh, how mean of him to call N Korea and Iran evil.......

turns out he was right, but since then all we've had seems to be empty words.
unfortunately, who is scared of us since we've fought such a weak minded war in Iraq?

Iran knows we won't invade or attack.

94 selpaw  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:10:18am

45 mglazer

cowards 3 step plan is happening right before our eyes. There are those who refuse to see it let alone admit to it and for reasons beyond me refuse to scream bloody murder because of it.


#51 BabbaZee
Amen!

95 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:11:18am

#88 Ed

Thank you.
I am too out of myself. That post is very lucid.

96 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:11:30am

#79 Poitiers-Lepanto, it will be very hard for Bush to deal with Iran now that Republicans lost Congress. What exactly do you suggest he should have done? And what should he do now?

The American people voted for defeat and defeat is what they will get.

97 RaiderDan  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:12:13am

Now I know what it felt like to be in America in 1975 with Jimmy Carter looming in the distance....

98 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:13:40am
99 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:14:04am

Well, the Demonratic party and its communication wing, the main stream media did such a successful job opposing the interests of the US at every turn, and reporting propaganda for the enemy, that I assume Bush has given up on stopping Iran from going nuclear, and is looking for the least politically damaging way to abandon Iraq, to be split between Iran and al Qaeda.


Good job.


I don't think you've done President Clinton or Obama or Edwards any favors in the long run. It'll be hard to be popular when Iran dictates oil prices, and gas is over $5 a gallon. And while the first Islamic terror attack in the US under a Democratic administration will probably rally the American people, they'll get awfully tired when it keeps happening.

100 Golem Akbar  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:14:17am

#85 Taxfreekiller

History will record that the current President Bush was even weaker than his wothless dad,

No! If Bush, as president, manages to solve the Iraq situation, he will go down in history as a hero. It'll be his legacy. I think he knows this and will do anything and everything it takes to produce a victory. He doesn't want to be rememembered like a Clinton, who got tripped up in the end of his administration by stupidity.

101 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:14:59am
102 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:16:52am

#96 Peter

The list of the "should have done" is too long, but many Lizards here have already posted serious points (Fallujah, Al Sadr, etc.).

What he should do ? Go in fron t of the TV and say: I am the CiC, I know that iran with the bomb means the end of the Western civilization, I have ordered the Air Force to bomb all the iranian nuclear facilities and the bombing will stop when the Intelligence will tell me that all the iranian nuclear facilities have been terminated. God bless America.

103 selpaw  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:17:52am

#88 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades


I know how difficult those words are to write. But every word you wrote is correct. My greatest fears I fear are coming true. I pray we are wrong yet only the self inflicted blind can miss the handwriting on the wall.


As we tilt on the abyss we need more voices to stop this madness before it is to late.

104 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:19:15am
105 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:19:18am
106 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:19:52am

I have felt since Day 1 that we were fighting but we in turn were hanging ourselves out to dry... I want to fight aggressively against these people... They don't mind dying, well give them death. They hide as civilians and behind civilians, we then both will pay the price.

This is war. Not a card game. You don't bluff. You destroy and conquer. World War II was a real war. We leveled German cities and Japanese cities with every weapon in our arsenal.

Political correctness and the fear of civilian casualties has tied both hands behind our troops back. Do our enemies value human life as we do? No. That right there gives you all the incentive you need to wipe them all out.

107 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:20:12am

#99 Ed

Even more lucid than the first.

Hey, there ! At the White House, dismiss the idiots and give a call to Charles, to have Ed's phone number.

Apparently our Washington egg-heads have gone rotten.

108 shug  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:21:11am

102 P L

Absolutely!
I would support that and I am sure would most Americans.

But it's better to ask for forgiveness than permission. Also, don't announce it and give them time to hide the nukes and their scientists.

109 Chyron  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:21:46am
"But the Associated Press tries to spin it the other way: Bush agrees to speedy turnover in Iraq."

Haven't they been caught lying enough for one week?

110 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:22:06am

The ISG plan called for a "gradual" drawdown of troops while the Iraqi forces slowly take over repsonsibility.

THIS IS THE SAME FRICKEN PLAN BUSH HAS ADVOCATED FROM THE BEGINNING!

The MSM is tring to spin this as a policy shift. It is not. It is a policy confirmation. Bush has been right all along!

111 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:23:06am

#108 Shug

If you notice, I wrote he should say "I have ordered...".

He should just inform the American People of what has already happened.

112 LadyBird  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:23:09am

#10 jaynumber13

Why don't they say they don't want America (and the rest of the Enlightened world) to win? We could win with ease; we're just choosing not to.

I agree! This thing can be over in
a day -- we know it and they know it.

113 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:25:50am

Compassionate warfare, the eunuch's sex-life.

114 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:25:56am

I doubt it happens- but if Bush were to really do the right thing, and put the interests of the US and the world ahead of politics:


He'd launch a large scale air attack on Iran, starting first with its air defenses, and its ability to retaliate with missile attacks against Israel, Saudi Arabia and Iraq, then while neutralizing Iran's ability to sink Persian Gulf oil tankers and attack Saudi and Kuwaiti oil docks (there will be some ships sunk or facilities attacked, oil prices wil spike) start a methodical bombing campaign to destroy the Revolutionary Guards, the ruling mullahs, and, of course, Iran's nuclear facilities. Some are well sheltered, and will require waves of bunker buster attacks. Some are near civilians, and there will be 'collateral damage'. Some of the nuclear facilities are in locations unknown to the US, and may escape destruction.


But it will set the Iranians back several years.


Bush needs to do this before mid-January, because the War Powers Act gives Congress the authority to order the President to stop all military action by concurrent resolution of the House and Senate, if doesn't already have Congressional authorization.

The one other hope, although Olmert doesn't inspire confidence, is that Israel, with far more limited resources for attacking Iran, does the best it can bombing the most critical weapons facilities, and hoping an Iranian over-reaction will draw the US into the fight to finish the job right.

115 Yank in the EU  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:26:41am

#92 It's actually not a lie, tfk. Watch your accusations, buck.

Randy Graf (R, Minuteman-AZ)
J.D. Hayworth (R-AZ)
John Hostettler (R-IN -- the chair in the 109 th Congress of the House Immigration Subcommittee)
Chris Chocola (R-IN)
Anne Northup (R-KY)
Melissa Hart (R-PA)
Bob Beauprez (R-CO -- who lost his race for Governor)
Charles Taylor (R-NC)
Gil Gutknecht (R-MN)
Richard Pombo (R-CA)

#101

Bush signed off on a fence he knew he would never build, it was all a lie

Do you know how ridiculous that is? If the (R)s had won, nothing would stand in the way of the fence.

116 tfc3rid  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:27:00am

Lady Bird...

I think clear thinking people see that we could totally put things into effect that would help us win in a VERY short period of time and scare the ever loving crap out of our enemies...

The fact that we choose not to is mind-boggling to me...

117 shug  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:29:46am

115 yank in the EU

Do you know how ridiculous that is? If the (R)s had won, nothing would stand in the way of the fence.

Sure, since they built it when they had congress and the White House for the last 6 years

118 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:29:52am
119 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:29:56am

I've scanned the comments above, & while some folks get it, quite a few have fallen for the MSM BIG LIE.

The ISG will recommend a gradual withdrawal wiith no timetable.
Bush has always advocated that policy.

The Dems & MSM have advocated a quick withdrawal and a firm timetable.

In other words, the sky has not fallen, the MSM is spinning as hard as it can, but the fact remains, the ISG has NOT recommended the DEM/MSM/Ahmadinejad endorsed plan.

121 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:31:10am

A gradual drawdown from Iraq as the the Iraqis take more responsibility for security has always been the plan. But I har talk that part of the study group's plan involves asking Syria and The Little Hitler in Tehran for support. And, one of the conditions for that support, is we put pressure on Israel to make even more concessions to the Palis and Syria.


That is paying extortion with someone else's money.

122 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:31:27am
The fact that we choose not to is mind-boggling to me...


and gut wrenching

123 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:31:55am
124 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:32:27am

#118 taxfreekiller

Three times in "fool-loose-ya" kicking down the same steel doors with the same killers shooting back.

Are you channeling moonbat-brain today? The "same killers shooting back"? You mean they didn't stay dead? You mean to say, "more killers", anything else is just plain nuts.

125 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:33:21am
#102 Poitiers-Lepanto

#96 Peter

The list of the "should have done" is too long, but many Lizards here have already posted serious points (Fallujah, Al Sadr, etc.).

What he should do ? Go in fron t of the TV and say: I am the CiC, I know that iran with the bomb means the end of the Western civilization, I have ordered the Air Force to bomb all the iranian nuclear facilities and the bombing will stop when the Intelligence will tell me that all the iranian nuclear facilities have been terminated. God bless America.


My point is that he can't do those things without sufficient political capital and support from his own party. He couldn't do them when Republicans controlled Congress and he certainly can't do them now.

I'm really tired of these whiny old conservative Republicans who don't get their priorities straight. Remember Vonovich during the Bolton nomination? And now James Baker? And Trent Lott returning as Senate minority leader?

126 SagamoreGal  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:33:34am

Not really O/T:

From a wise old sage, American-to-the-core former prez:

"The Peace of Righteousness" From Outlook Magazine, Sept 9, 1911

by Theodore Roosevelt

(paraprashed)

" It is one of our prime duties as a nation to seek peace. It is an even higher duty to seek righteousness. It is also our duty not to indulge in shams, not to make believe we are getting peace by some patent contrivance which sensible men ought to know cannot work in practice, and which if we sought to make it work might cause irretrieavable harm. I sincerely believe in the principle of arbitration; I believe in applying that principle so far as practicable; but I believe that the effort to apply it where it is not practicable cannot do good and may do serious harm. Confused thinking and a willingness to substitute words for thought, even though inspired by an entirely amiable sentimentatlity, do not tend toward sound action. I think that the great majority of those persons who advocate any and every treaty which is called a treaty for peace or for arbitration would be less often drawn into a position that tends to humiliate their country if they would take the trouble to formuate clearly and definitely just what it is that they desire.

... We, the American people, believe, and ought to believe, in righteousness first, and in peace as the handmaid of righteousness. We abhor brutality and wrong-doing, whether exhibited by nations or by individuals. We hold that the same law of righteousness should obtain between nation and nation as between man and man. I, for one, would rather cut off my hand than see the United States adopt the attitude either of cringing before great and powerful nations who wish to worong us, or bullying small and weak nations who have done us no wrong.

...Our chief usefulness to humanity rests on our combining power with high purpose. Power undirected by high purpose spells calamity; and high purpose by itself is utterly useless if the power to put it into effect is lacking. in the history of our contry the peace advocates who treat peace as more than righteousness will never be, and never have been, of service, either to it or to mankind. The true lovers of peace, the men who have really helped onward the movement for peace, have been those who followed, even though afar off, in the footsteps of Washington and Lincoln, and stood for righteousness as the supreme end of national life. "

Very long article...
---------------------------------------------
TR would have spat upon the likes of James Baker and Jimmy Carter.

127 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:34:30am

Such 'committees' as the Iraq Study Group are nothing more than vehicles for politicians inside the Beltway to have deniability and push off the responsibility for their piss poor management of whatever they mismanaged.

The Executive Branch, and yes I mean the President of the United States, will be able to take cover by saying: "The committee suggested it and we implemented it." What that really means is: "I really wanted to do the backstroke on my decision, but I could not appear as if I made a mistake or called for "winning hearts & minds", because we are floundering", etc.

Congress will also be off the hook, because they will say: "We followed the committees suggestion, it really wasn't our constant harassment and bellaching that really put a damper on the war effort, so it's not our fault either.", etc.

128 The Bruce  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:36:28am

Looks like Bush just rejected the pullout part of the overall surrender plan--but nothing about the part to throw Israel to the wolves.

All this hyperventilating may be moot, because if Iran/Hezb'allah can pull Lebanon into civil war this coming month, we will see the start of the real war against Islamic Fascism.

I can't see the US or Israel allowing Lebanon to go under for both military and political reasons.

And yet... Bush and Olmert are not war presidents.

129 gymnast  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:39:01am

The Baker Commissions recommendations will be rejected. Make book on it. Some here seem to think that the worst ideas always prevail and forget that history never stops. You have not learned to reject or fact check what the media in all it's forms attempts to shape your opinions with. Experience has taught me that in the process of winning, one will encounter losers and people that cannot get out of their own way. Doubt is the first stage of defeat, and those who encourage it are tools of the enemy.

130 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:39:29am

#125 Peter

My point is that he can't do those things without sufficient political capital and support from his own party.

He can, he just doesn't show (until now) the determination [see, I can be polite, I didn't even mention something like having the cojones or the balls...OOOOPS].

AND WHY IN HELL SHOULD OUR WARRIORS BE DYING WHILE THE CiC THINKS MORE TO HIS POLITICAL FUTURE THAT TO SAVE AMERICA AND THE WEST ?

131 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:39:43am

#121 Ed Mahmoud

But I har talk that part of the study group's plan involves asking Syria and The Little Hitler in Tehran for support

We hear talk in the MSM about that, but the ISG has NOT said it. Some reports have quoted Baker saying, "We should always be open to talk with our enemies" but that is NOT the same thing as saying the US wants to ask Iran to help. That is an MSM meme. The MSM is trying to pre-spin the report. Go to the source & look at exact quotes of what Baker & the ISG have said. Compare that with what the MSM says they said: often their is a big difference. Everytime you hear the phrase, "sources close to the ISG report..." you BS meter better go off, 'cause the MSM is about to lie again

132 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:41:24am
“I know there’s a lot of speculation that these reports in Washington mean there’s going to be some kind of graceful exit out of Iraq,” the president said during a joint news conference with Mr. Maliki, referring to the panel’s reports that are expected next week. “We’re going to stay in Iraq to get the job done so long as the government wants us there.


And there is your money quote ladies and gentlemen. Maliki will get a call from Iran, and no sooner than you can say "damn", US forces will be packing up their bags and vacating Iraq.

The President also said that Iran will not get a nuclear weapons on his watch, if memory serves and if Ahmadinejad didn't lie (it's possible even probable), the President has until March of 2007 (at the outside) to stop Iran from getting the bomb. I say that Ahmadinejad is going to make President Bush a liar, because Iran will have the bomb and the United States of America will lodge a typewritten protest with the UNSC. Once these vents unfold, UBLs words that the United States is nothing but a "paper tiger" weaker than the Soviets shall be proved to be true to 1.4 billion Muslims around the world.

133 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:41:45am

#129 gymnast

The Baker Commissions recommendations will be rejected. Make book on it.

You mean "What the MSM is saying the recomendation will be...will be rejected"

134 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:42:25am

THAT ? than...

135 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:45:25am

Bullet the Blue Sky

In the howling wind comes a stinging rain
See it driving nails into the souls on the tree of pain
From the firefly, a red orange glow
See the face of fear running scared in the valley below

Bullet the blue sky - bullet the blue sky
Bullet the blue - bullet the blue

In the locust wind comes a rattle and hum
Jacob wrestled the angel and the angel was overcome
Plant a demon seed - you raise a flower of fire
See them burning crosses - see the flames higher and higher

Bullet the blue sky - bullet the blue sky
Bullet the blue - bullet the blue

This guy comes up to me
His face red like a rose on a thorn bush
Like all the colours of a royal flush
And he's peeling off those dollar bills
Slapping them down - one hundred, two hundred
And I can see those fighter planes
And I can see those fighter planes
Across the mud huts as the children sleep
Through the alleys of a quiet city street
We take the staircase to the first floor
We turn the key and slowly unlock the door
A man breathes into a saxophone
And through the walls we hear the city groan
Outside it's America - outside it's America

So how does it feel to see the sky ripped open?
To see the rain through a gaping wound?
Pelting the women and children
Who run into the arms of America

136 j-damn  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:46:01am

Why are people posting stupid song lyrics and links to illegal MP3's?

Has this site been taken over by Yahoo! or something?

137 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:46:09am

#132 ABC

Once these vents unfold, UBLs words that the United States is nothing but a "paper tiger" weaker than the Soviets shall be proved to be true to 1.4 billion Muslims around the world.

And they will wage war against the West and Freedom like an army of zombies.

The peacenicks are preparing THE greatest massacre in history.

138 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:46:57am

#136 j-damn
Dont frikkin click then

139 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:47:49am

Do you have a link to the T.R. article?

140 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:48:10am

#119 Kenneth

In other words, the sky has not fallen, the MSM is spinning as hard as it can, but the fact remains, the ISG has NOT recommended the DEM/MSM/Ahmadinejad endorsed plan.

You really have no clue what the ISG has not recommended because their report/recommendation has not been made. It comes out next month.

All we are doing is speculating about rumors because someone said that someone said, what is unfortunate for you is that Baker the 3rd has a long history of "realism" of throwing Israel under the bus and advocating such things as talking with Iran & Syria.

141 seejanemom  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:50:18am

A pullout? OoOoohhh...I hope this works and we don't get pregnant.....

142 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:50:23am

#137 Poitiers-Lepanto

#132 ABC

Once these vents unfold, UBLs words that the United States is nothing but a "paper tiger" weaker than the Soviets shall be proved to be true to 1.4 billion Muslims around the world.

And they will wage war against the West and Freedom like an army of zombies.

The peacenicks are preparing THE greatest massacre in history.

Exactly, because the war that is just around the corner will make all of the wars of human history combined, seem like nothing more than a bloodied nose.

143 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:52:20am
#130 Poitiers-Lepanto
...
AND WHY IN HELL SHOULD OUR WARRIORS BE DYING WHILE THE CiC THINKS MORE TO HIS POLITICAL FUTURE THAT TO SAVE AMERICA AND THE WEST ?


First of all, don't yell at me.

Secondly, I have to guess what exactly you mean here, but it's very unlikely that GWB is thinking more about "his political future" than saving America and the west. He's not up for reelection.

Sure, if he really wanted he could probably invade Iran, but the next day all kinds of political hell would break loose that would make the necessary follow-up steps impossible.

Sort of like already happened with Iraq, but much worse...

Politics is a frustrating chess game unfortunately, even for the CiC.

144 Clio  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:52:21am

There seems a tendency by some bloggers to put all the blame on one political party, that has not been making policy for the past six years, and has not even yet been installed in the forthcoming Congress.

James Baker is not a Democrat.

It is unlikely that anyone in his Carlyle Group is a Democrat.

Condoleeza Rice, Baker's marionette, is not a Democrat.

There may very likely be a lot to blame the Democrats for in days to come. But the lead-up to the present mess, including the the love affair with the "the good cause of the Palestinian people", the embrace of darling Mahmoud Abbas, and the witless "Two-State Solution" came from the folks who have been in power for the last six years.

145 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:52:56am

#144 Clio
amen

146 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:54:40am
#136 j-damn

Why are people posting stupid song lyrics and links to illegal MP3's?

Has this site been taken over by Yahoo! or something?


Yes, cut it out, extremely annoying!

147 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:55:00am

#146 Peter Verkooijen
You got a scroll button, use it.

148 find your violent jihadi on ebay!  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:55:41am

At first I thought the Baker Group's purpose was to lend legitimacy to the upcoming dishonorable suing for peace with Iran/Syria.

I still think it is, but now it seems the ISG's purpose was to throw out some trial balloons to see what would float - not so much a foreshadowing of policy as much as something like whenever Rice opens her pie hole, i.e. to see if anyone'll buy it. And it's too uninspiring to provoke any misguided buying of it.

Methinks the ISG is fast becoming a "nothing to see here, move along" phenomenon.

Even the much-feared and correctly-feared flushing of loyal ally Israel down the toilet for short-term symbolic gains is looking like another trial balloon that'll be abandoned real soon - like as soon as Hizb takes over Lebanon, say, in a week.

For some odd, odd reason, I am less fearful of the ISG than I was a week ago.

149 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:56:06am

#142 ABC

The stupidity of the politicians is mind-boggling.

What happens if you show to a dog that you are afraid of him ?

What happens in a street fight if you show you are scared ?

They lack the basics, the most elementary knowledge.

They are telling to the muslim barbarians that we are scared.
The barbarians will become psychotically ferocious (unil now they have been just muslims...).

150 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:56:34am
151 gymnast  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:57:29am

#133. Kenneth. Yes. The MSM bullshit fifth column propaganda will be rejected, even if some on this thread still use their (the MSM) disinformation to structure their thoughts reason and arguments. Your posts have been distinctively insightful today and despite having to scroll over some rather obvious posts by hand wringing doubters and obvious nut cases your comments have been worth reading and reflect the anti idiotarian standards that should prevail among those having the good fortune to make their ideas known here.

152 Maximu§  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:58:08am

#145 BabbaZee

#144 Clio
amen

I second that, both sides have sold us up the river and put our childrens future in danger.


Maximu§
3/11 ACR

153 The Bruce  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:58:37am

Alphabet Man:

The President also said that Iran will not get nuclear weapons on his watch, ... the President has until March of 2007 (at the outside) to stop Iran from getting the bomb. I say that Ahmadinejad is going to make President Bush a liar

All too true and scary because everything comes down to Bush's character and courage. Nothing he's done in the past six years shows that he's capable of nailing Iran, even with air strikes. He's too soft at his core. And the clock is running out very fast...

154 neverpayretail  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:59:26am

An exit from Iraq under less than stable conditions in Iraq should be made on the grounds that Islam is the problem.

Leaders of the free world should stop pretending otherwise. These leaders should further assert the solution; Islam must either reform, or it will die. And finally, we should make it so. We should insist on this.

As I have watched events unfold, and become educated as to what is Islam, I am forced to the conclusion that Islam can only be conquered by the truth from within once exposed from without. We in the free world can expose Islam for the pile of crap that it is. Those in Islam, exposed to the truth, will, in time, reject it.

My vote goes to containment and merciless exposure.

155 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 7:59:43am

#147 BabbaZee, why don't you go and take your lyrics here or something.

156 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:01:09am

When this is your blog, you may dictate my behavior here.
Till then, use the scroll button GOD gave you and stay the fuck out of my face.

157 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:02:28am

#140 abc-m-xyz

You really have no clue what the ISG has not recommended because their report/recommendation has not been made. It comes out next month.

My point exactly. We are seeing a lot of pre-spinning from the left, the media, from the right, from the blogs & now from the ISG. The report comes out on Dec. 6th.

#151 gymnast

Thanks. Sometimes I feel like I'm pissing in the wind. Hey, if the ISG does recommend rapid pull-out, asking Iran for help, or abandoning Israel, then I will be as angry as the reat of you folks. But they haven't said that yet, & I don't think they will. Neither will Bush accept such ideas.

158 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:02:46am
159 nonic  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:03:26am

#75 Ben Hur
#82 Kerfuffle

I think you realize that Hagia Sophia and the Blue Mosque are two separate buildings across the street from each other.

Hagia Sophia, (the Church of) Holy Wisdom, now known as the Ayasofya Museum, is a former Eastern Orthodox church converted to a mosque in 1453 by the Turks, and converted into a museum in 1935. It is located in the Turkish city of Istanbul. It is universally acknowledged as one of the greatest buildings of the world. Its conquest by the Ottomans at the fall of Constantinople is considered one of the great tragedies of Christianity by the Greek Orthodox faithful.

The Sultan Ahmed Mosque (in Turkish Sultanahmet Camii) is a mosque in Istanbul, the largest city in Turkey and the capital of the Ottoman Empire from 1453 to 1923. It is regarded as one of the greatest masterpieces of Islamic architecture. The Mosque is famously known as the "Blue Mosque" for its blue tiles in its interior.

The mosque was built between 1609 and 1616 by order of the Sultan Ahmed I, after whom it is named. He is buried in the mosque's precincts. It is located in the oldest part of Istanbul, in what was before 1453 the centre of Constantinople, the capital of the Byzantine Empire. It is next to the site of the ancient Hippodrome, and a short distance from what used to be the Christian Church of the Holy Wisdom (Hagia Sophia) which has now been converted into a museum.

160 find your violent jihadi on ebay!  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:03:37am

# 156 BabbZee

now if we could just get Israel to respond to provocation like that...

161 SagamoreGal  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:04:10am

Ringo the Gringo

Unfortunately, no, I cannot find the article on any web site. I have over 80 books by/about TR, and this article (he wrote for the conservative, long-defunct magazine "Outlook Magazine" in his post-White House years on a pretty regular basis) is included in his "American Problems" book, published in a series of TR's works by Scribners in 1926.

162 Peter Verkooijen  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:04:44am

#156 BabbaZee, the same GOD that gave me a scroll button gave me the right to get in your face when it's called for.

163 selpaw  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:04:53am

138 BabbaZee

LOL! Don't click them for sure!
But most important the meaning of what those songs suggest should be paid close attention to especially to those in their self imposed blindness.

#132 abc-m-xyz

Maliki

That son of a bitch who is now telling the U.S what to do. I never thought it would happen. Furthermore, when speaking of Nouri al-Maliki we must also in the same breath speak of Iran where he made a little visit to. Not to mention the guy we should have killed long ago, (and for the love of G-d the chances were there) Muqtada al-Sadr who Maliki is quite cozy with. But hey, the self impossed blind can not see until they deem it so.

As far as I am concerned our excellent intentions and perfect right to bring justice to Iraq have melted away. I believe now more than ever we can not nation build but use our might when nations refuse to tow our mark. There must be a will for democracy to take hold and so far the will is not there. Worse, we are becoming more impotent ourselves and what a shame for the greatest strongest country on the planet.

164 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:05:12am

160 find your violent jihadi on ebay!

LOL!


I grow weary. See ya later.

165 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:06:10am
166 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:06:13am

#162 Peter Verkooijen

You are now impinging on the nap.

Is your name Charles?

Stand down, I'm off the thread now anyway asshole.

167 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:06:37am

#143 Peter

Sorry, this is Free Country for now. I yell when and at whom I care to.

Second, I never said Bush should INVADE iran, that would be another iraq-poop.

And yes he is thinking to his "political" future: these old whores of politicians get, when out of office, all the complimentary gifts from all the hidden friends: lots and lots of money, funding for their despicable "libraries", etc etc.

And we know that the politician-whores are very very vain.

And the political future of a President worth his title , today, would be to be impeached by the demonrats, if he does the right thing.

He shouldn't worry about these little details.

168 THX-42  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:07:11am

I agree with those who say that our "route of redeployment" go directly through Tehran. ABCNews has posted the most recent evidence of why we should take this route.

I predict that the "civil war in Iraq" would shrivel up in two weeks if we took down Iran.

169 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:07:54am

#148 find

Really?

The "administration" is willing to talk to Iran, but not Syria. I have been shocked & awed by the "administrations" reasoning as explained by David Satterfield, the State Department's top advisor on Iraq:

David Satterfield, the State Department's top adviser on Iraq, told Congress earlier this month that the administration is willing to talk with Tehran but not Damascus. Mr. Satterfield listed several of Syria's pro-terrorism policies, such as backing Hezbollah in Lebanon.

Iraq panel inks draft report

If what David Satterfield said is true, that the WH is willing to talk to Tehran but not to Syria, because of Hizballah & Syrian pro-terrorism policies, than I say that the WH is nothing but a place for the brain dead.

What the hell kind of policies does Tehran have, anti-terrorist policies? Hizballah is Tehrans baby, Syria is Tehrans puppet and the WH somehow will find the stomach to speak to Tehran and not Damascus?

Freakishly amazing if you ask me.

170 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:10:08am

#155 Peter Verkooijen

Leave the lady alone.

Charles doesn't seem bothered, and this is his joint. Personally, I like her musicaly references, they're often right on the topic.

If you don't like it, scroll.

171 selpaw  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:11:48am

160 find your violent jihadi on ebay!
to
# 156 BabbZee you wrote

now if we could just get Israel to respond to provocation like that...

And today Condi Rice complemented her weak kneed puppet Olmert for acting with restraint against the Palestinians while they have violated the (stupid) cease fire.

Again I say, Rice does not act on her own.

The world have impossed their views/demands in the form of real pressure on Israel. The latest libel against Jews being the way in which to win in Iraq is through Israel.

172 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:11:50am
173 easy  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:13:25am

#144 Clio

There seems a tendency by some bloggers to put all the blame on one political party, that has not been making policy for the past six years, and has not even yet been installed in the forthcoming Congress.


I think most blame the left, and to most that means democrats, and the MSM for their constant unrelenting pressure to appease.

174 Peacekeeper  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:14:04am

I'm sorry, is the ringing in my ears disturbing you?

175 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:14:31am

#159 nonic

Please see my post on this topic on the other thread. I am really pissed!

176 nonic  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:14:45am

#154 neverpayretail

containment and merciless exposure

Theoretically, I like it.

But if we're too squeamish to kill people who kill us, how would we ever manage to get up the gumption to tell people who are not killing us that their so-called religion is a load of crap? An evil load of crap.

177 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:15:45am

#149 Poitiers-Lepanto

They are telling to the muslim barbarians that we are scared.
The barbarians will become psychotically ferocious (unil now they have been just muslims...).

I think they are transmitting their fear by their actions, but I don't think it is just the politicians that are scared. There are many people that are scared, there are many people that have no idea of what the West is facing (the world really, but it is the Wests turn to have its face bloodied) and those two groups, the scared and the uninformed outnumber the informed & willing to fight (by whatever means) by huge percentages.

178 blackelkspeaks  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:16:42am

Ever since the last election, I've felt like I imagine Lee must have felt after Gettysburg. The high water mark has passed. Militarily, there is nothing further that can be done. And, whether we accept this fact or not, politically, in this case, there is no surrender option, either. Our enemies are satanic beasts. Negotiation is a pipe dream.

After 911 in 2001 I felt really low, expecting that the US wouldn't have the will to defeat the Moslems. If 3000 dead on our own soil wasn't enough to motivate the American people to the dangers, then nothing would. I marvelled that Bush chose to support an attack at all. But, being all too familiar with post-WWII history, I doubted whether we would fight this thing to win. Sadly, our current culturally-degenerate state of affairs is too politically correct to allow us to prevail in this conflict. We are most certainly not anything like "the Greatest Generation". We have chosen as our leaders nothing more than geriatric hippies. We've already lost.

I say, bring the boys home for Christmas. Let's give them a chance to enjoy what little is good before the nukes go off around the world. They, more than any of us, have earned their respite.

Nothing else is possible now.

179 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:17:36am

#157 Kenneth


#140 abc-m-xyz

You really have no clue what the ISG has not recommended because their report/recommendation has not been made. It comes out next month.

My point exactly. We are seeing a lot of pre-spinning from the left, the media, from the right, from the blogs & now from the ISG. The report comes out on Dec. 6th.

You yourself are spinning, it's just that you are spinning in the opposite direction. That doesn't make you right as you seem to think and everyone else wrong.

180 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:19:24am

SagamoreGal,

I just figured that you had pasted it from a website.

Thanks for looking.

We could really use a man like Teddy Roosevelt today, unfortunately these types of men don't go into politics anymore.

181 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:19:29am

#171 selpaw

Again I say, Rice does not act on her own.


Sec. Rice serves at the pleasure of the President. Currently the President is George W. Bush, Sec. Rice is not autonomous in her actions.

182 Right Side  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:19:34am

#78 shug:

So if we are not committed to kicking ass and winning, why stay there ?


Here's why: A few months ago, Bush made an offhand remark that the news media reported on just once and then promptly forgot about:

"If this [war] is seen as 'America vs. Islam', then America will lose."

Bush has concluded (and it's a reasonable conclusion) that America cannot fight 1.3 billion Muslims in dozens of countries (including our own) who incidentally have control of most of the world's proven oil supplies. Unless we go to nuclear weapons.

So ever since 9-11, Bush has been desperately trying to find a way to contain this war to keep it from escalating into "America vs. Islam."

So, just as we fought limited wars in Korea and Vietnam to keep those wars from escalating into a nuclear confrontation, we are fighting a limited war in Iraq to keep it from escalating.

The way out of this conundrum was shown by Ronald Reagan: We must put our own house in order so we won't fear escalation as much. Then we won't be as afraid to face down our enemies. In Reagan's case, this meant a military buildup, national missile defense and a revitalized American economy. In today's world, it means a strong anti-Muslim (yes, I do mean anti-MUSLIM) immigration policy and a crash program, with draconian measures if necessary, to get us weaned off foreign oil.

As long as we are terrified of another OPEC oil embargo, as long as Americans and their elected officials get hysterical every time the price of gasoline rises a lousy 25 cents a gallon, we will NEVER see the way out of this mess.

183 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:23:29am

#153 The Bruce

Alphabet Man:

The President also said that Iran will not get nuclear weapons on his watch, ... the President has until March of 2007 (at the outside) to stop Iran from getting the bomb. I say that Ahmadinejad is going to make President Bush a liar

All too true and scary because everything comes down to Bush's character and courage. Nothing he's done in the past six years shows that he's capable of nailing Iran, even with air strikes. He's too soft at his core. And the clock is running out very fast...

I am sure there is a strongly worded letter being written as we type about how the US of A is protesting in the strongest of all terms that Iran got the bomb.

184 Ringo the Gringo  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:24:53am

Here's a song for Peter Verkooijen:

MIND YOUR OWN BUSINESS
by Hank Williams

If the wife and I are fussin', brother that's our right
'Cause me and that sweet woman's got a license to fight
Why don't you mind your own business
Mind your own business
'Cause if you mind your business, then you won't be mindin' mine.

Oh, the woman on our party line's the nosiest thing
She picks up her receiver when she knows it's my ring
Why don't you mind your own business
Mind your own business
Well, if you mind your business, then you won't be mindin' mine.

I got a little gal that wears her hair up high,
the boys all whistle when she walks by.
why don't you mind your own buisness
Mind your own business
Well, if you mind your own business, you sure won't be minding mine.

If I want to honky tonk around 'til two or three
Now, brother that's my headache, don't you worry 'bout me.
Just mind your own business
Mind your own business
If you mind your business, then you won't be mindin' mine.

Mindin' other people's business seems to be high-toned
I got all that I can do just to mind my own
Why don't you mind your own business
Mind your own business
If you mind your own business, you'll stay busy all the time.

185 Right Side  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:28:14am

#132 abc-m-xyz:

The President also said that Iran will not get a nuclear weapons on his watch


Yeah. Two years ago he also said that it would be "intolerable" (his word) for North Korea to have nuclear weapons.

North Korea has now test-fired a nuclear weapon.

And Bush is apparently "tolerating" it.

That incident is reminiscent of how the Carter Adminstration caved in on the Soviet combat brigade in Cuba: First Carter said it was "unacceptable"; then when the Soviets dug in their heels, he went on nationwide prime-time TV to announce he was "accepting" it after all.

In international diplomacy, "intolerable" is one step short of an ultimatum. If you say that another nation's actions are "intolerable," you had better be prepared to back up your words with real action if you don't want to lose credibility forever.

Bush has taken no action whatsoever.

Don't think Iran wasn't paying attention.

186 Poitiers-Lepanto  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:30:02am

#178 BlackElkSpeaks


We are just at the first battles of the immense war between the islamic barbarians and the Free WOrld and you fold already ?

C'mon, there is enough horror ahead, we can't become pessimistic now. There will be time for that when things will get really thick.

:-(

187 realwest  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:30:43am

I HATE the Associated (with Terrorist)Press and good on Bush!

188 TMF  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:31:40am

The "excerpts" from the report (as told by the NY Times, mind you, and should be taken with a HUGE grain of salt)...

Do not represent any significant shift from the existing policy that I can tell

"No open ended committment"? No shit sherlock!

"Gradual troop withdrawals as Iraqis become self sufficient" Uhhh, DUH

This article is a non-sequitir

189 realwest  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:31:41am

Oh, and does this mean Mr. Baker goes back into whatever hole he was in before, or is that asking too much too quickly?

190 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:31:57am

#163 selpaw

#132 abc-m-xyz

Maliki

That son of a bitch who is now telling the U.S what to do. I never thought it would happen. Furthermore, when speaking of Nouri al-Maliki we must also in the same breath speak of Iran where he made a little visit to. Not to mention the guy we should have killed long ago, (and for the love of G-d the chances were there) Muqtada al-Sadr who Maliki is quite cozy with. But hey, the self impossed blind can not see until they deem it so.

As far as I am concerned our excellent intentions and perfect right to bring justice to Iraq have melted away. I believe now more than ever we can not nation build but use our might when nations refuse to tow our mark. There must be a will for democracy to take hold and so far the will is not there. Worse, we are becoming more impotent ourselves and what a shame for the greatest strongest country on the planet.

Iran already has close relations with the Iraqi government. Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's Dawa party, as well as the largest Iraqi Shia party, the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq, were based in Iran in exile during the Saddam Hussein era.


and

The Prime Minister of Iraq will sit down for the first time next week with representatives of insurgent groups in his most concerted effort yet to quell the country’s sectarian war.

The stench eminanting from this "meeting" smells vaguely like the stench of the Waziristan Peace Deal signed by Musharaf a month or two ago.

191 TMF  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:33:05am

Oh, I just saw Charles distillation of this whole story:

the Associated Press tries to spin it

192 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:34:52am

#179 abc-m-xyz

You yourself are spinning, it's just that you are spinning in the opposite direction. That doesn't make you right as you seem to think and everyone else wrong.

The MSM is saying the ISG pre-report is calling for a "rapid drawdown' or "a gradual withdrawal" depending on which source. They then go on to add their spin, almost always defeatist. Many people here are screaming that the ISG is calling for US surrender, begging the Iranians, etc. etc. That too is spin, of a peculiar sort, in which the spinner alleges something he doesn't want to happen, that Bush is capitualtion, when in fact Bush has not.

I am saying this: hey folks cut the crap, stop listening to the MSM spin, & stop inventing your own spin. I stated emphatically what the ISG actually did say, and noted that it was exactly what Bush had advocted from the beginning. That is not spin, it is fact. Deal with it.

If others go on and insist Baker has said things he did not, then don't tell me I "think everybody else is wrong". The arguments stand or fall on their own merits. Show me where I am factually wrong, & I will readily concede the point. Present a convincing, well reasoned interpretation, whether or not I share your POV, and I will respect your opinion.

193 Cognito  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:35:29am

172 taxfreekiller,

I'm flattered to see you've been thinking of me, on this fine Thursday. It's touching. But once again: I'm a married man.

194 realwest  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:37:07am

#188 TMF - Spot On post!

195 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:37:19am

#182 Right Side

So ever since 9-11, Bush has been desperately trying to find a way to contain this war to keep it from escalating into "America vs. Islam."

So, just as we fought limited wars in Korea and Vietnam to keep those wars from escalating into a nuclear confrontation, we are fighting a limited war in Iraq to keep it from escalating.

I would agree with you, except for the little niggling fact that the other side, the 1.4 billion Muslims in this world already think that the United States of America is waging a War Against Islam.

The 1.4 billion Muslims that Pres. Bush is afraid to antagonize, are already on a war footing of US v THE WEST or ISLAM v THE WEST. Acknowledging that we are in a war for our very survival is not for the benefit of Muslims (they already know) it is for our benefit so we can fight a war that is quite winnable.

196 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:39:41am
197 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:40:47am
Iraq Study Group Will Call for Pullout

So they do war like they do sex....

198 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:41:45am

#196 taxfreekiller

Bush is weak.
Bush can not even control his 25 year old drunk ass daughter Jenna, what makes you fools think he will stand up to mad men who have their fingers on the oil spiggot he and his money cult live off of.

Is that a fair question? maybe... But recall that Lincoln couldn't "control" his wife's embarrassing behavior either. But ol' Abe wasn't exactly a push over on the job.

199 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:42:54am

#192 Kenneth

When we see pictures of Baker the 3rd french kissing mullah butt, we can than discuss whose spinning was wrong.

By your own admission, the ISG has not released their report, so have they actually said something on record or not?

If they have said nothing on record, exactly where are you getting your facts?

My point exactly. We are seeing a lot of pre-spinning from the left, the media, from the right, from the blogs & now from the ISG. The report comes out on Dec. 6th.

200 nonic  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:43:32am

#175 Kenneth

Thank you. I went and read your post and the BBC article.

It's all bullsh*t and you and I know it.

I do not for a minute believe he turned toward Mecca, and if the BBC reporter (probably a muslim) didn't see him pray, so what? Not everybody waves their *ss in the air to pray. How would they know if he prayed -- not knowing what real prayer is.

Nonsense.

201 realwest  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:45:16am

#178 blackelkspeaks - I respect your position, though I do disagree with it completely.

When you say "We have chosen as our leaders nothing more than geriatric hippies. We've already lost.

I say, bring the boys home for Christmas. Let's give them a chance to enjoy what little is good before the nukes go off around the world. They, more than any of us, have earned their respite.

Nothing else is possible now."

I respectfully wish that blackelkwouldstopspeaking now.
Defeatism, no matter how well written, is not conducive at this or any other point when you're in a war. Especially when you're in a war that, no matter the wishes, false reporting, faux photographs and other bullshit the MSM throw at us,
we're winning.

202 Iron Fist  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:46:23am

#186 Poitiers-Lepanto,

You make a good point. Even if Iraq were nothing but roses and the RNC pulled their head out of their ass (and won this month's elections), this war would be far from over. This will be an inter-generational struggle much like the Cold War was, only IMHO much bloodier.

The loss in Vietnam and even the disasterous Carter Administration weren't enough to put America down for the count. We can survive this.

If we don't give up.

203 aaron  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:46:30am

Compare and contrast:

U.S. Denies Trade-Off Between Iraq, Israel

But Bush clearly has bought in:

President Bush said achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace was key to stabilizing the wider Middle East.

“There is no question that if we were able to settle the Israeli-Palestinian issue it would help bring more peace to the Middle East,” Bush told reporters Thursday after meeting Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Amman.

Right. I'm sure Palestinian statehood will cause the Shia and Sunni in Iraq to lay down their arms. I could go on, but what's the point...

204 nonic  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:46:48am

#175 Kenneth

Pope in Turkey cartoon

Somebody else posted this earlier, but it's worth reposting. I hope the first poster will excuse me for not remembering who he/she was. And my thanks to him/her.

205 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:47:35am

#173 easy

#144 Clio

There seems a tendency by some bloggers to put all the blame on one political party, that has not been making policy for the past six years, and has not even yet been installed in the forthcoming Congress.


I think most blame the left, and to most that means democrats, and the MSM for their constant unrelenting pressure to appease.

It's not even the pressure to appease; it's the way they use any cheap hook that they can to resist what the administration is doing, like throwing a fit over gitmo, or wiretapping, or you name it. They've been resisting and resisting by any means available, without an alternate vision. That's the main problem. The appeasment instinct is a minor problem by comparison.

206 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:47:56am

#185 Right Side

Don't think Iran wasn't paying attention.


Iran was paying attention, they paid so much attention that they have, in effect had, the US of A groveling while bearing gifts when it comes to their nuclear program and now they are going to get to get face to face begging from the worlds most powerful nation when it comes to Iraq.

207 realwest  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:49:35am

#185 Right Side - You got a link for that quote from President Bush that it would be intolerable if North Korea got nukes? I only ask because, IIRC, NORK has had nukes for quite some time now (thank you China, you've now reaped the whirlwind you never understood you might see) especially since it was the Clinton Administration that did NOTHING to prevent NORK from acquiring nukes.

208 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:55:29am

#199 abc-m-xyz

#192 Kenneth
When we see pictures of Baker the 3rd french kissing mullah butt, we can than discuss whose spinning was wrong.

Baker won't actually be kissing anybody's butt. That may be your colourful interpretation (ie "spin") of the ISG recomendations, but not a factual account of Mr. Baker's behavior.

By your own admission,

tsk, tsk...you're spinning me again!

the ISG has not released their report,

due Dec. 6

so have they actually said something on record or not? If they have said nothing on record, exactly where are you getting your facts?


Yes. Baker, Hamilton & others have, upon several occasions, said things "on the record" pertaining to the work of the ISG. Their comments have been oblique and carefully worded, but the MSM and blogs on the left & right have spun the hell out of them. You can go google their comments if you are interested. I'm got my facts from closely reading the actual words spoken by Baker, et al, and ignoring the spin added by the media.

209 gbl  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:57:28am

Speculation aside, this "leaked report" of which only a portion is spun by the NY Times is something I'm getting tired of. Every week something is leaked (in part) in order to scoop other news sources, hurt the President, or hamper our War efforts.

Damn'it were at War. Would some of the politicians please start to clamp down on this crap and send a few of the staff members or committee members to jail for leaking information?

I guess they have more inportant things to do like pick out new drapes or fight over who's office they want...

210 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:03:03am
211 Silhouette  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:04:02am

Day 1, we said that we were going in, that it would be messy, that it would take a long time, then we'd come home.

Anti-American forces around the globe accused us of imperialism. We're there to steal their oil. We repeated that we planned on coming home. And we didn't steal any oil, yet again.

They accused us of "losing the peace" and being surprised at the chaos. We repeated that we had said it would be messy.

They accused us of being caught flat footed in a quagmire we refused to acknowledge. We repeated that it would take a long time.

Now, they act as if events have "forced" us to consider a pullout. And we repeat, the plan all along was to come home.

The LLL are just searching for something, anything to be right on. "Ah ha! You finally decided to see it our way and leave this mistake!"

I was asked today if I had changed my mind about the war in Iraq now that I see "how things have turned out," as if the violence was something I didn't expect.

212 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:04:07am

#208 Kenneth

Let us see some of those carefully chosen words uttered by Baker the 3rd, Hamilton and others that you have read.

213 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:06:57am
214 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:11:01am
215 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:17:31am

#212 abc-m-xyz

I have posted them here time & again over the past 2 months. They are also available on the web. You can start with the article Charles linked to at the top of this thread. If you want to read them go look them up, I won't do your homework.

216 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:19:01am

Baker the 3rd, on September 19, 2006:

"I'm fairly confident that we will meet with a high representative of the (Iranian) government," he said at a press conference at the U.S. Institute of Peace (USIP),

preceded by:

Former Secretary of State James Baker, who co-chairs a bipartisan, Congressionally appointed task force called the "Iraq Study Group" (ISG), said that the timing of the meeting with that representative, whom he declined to name, had yet to be arranged but that permission for such a meeting to take place has been granted.

217 mich-again  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:23:39am

Here is the list of the members in the Iraq Study Group. So, who are the leakers that the NYT got their information from?

James A. Baker, III, Lee H. Hamilton, Lawrence S. Eagleburger, Vernon E. Jordan, Jr., Edwin Meese III , Sandra Day O'Connor, Leon E. Panetta, William J. Perry, Charles S. Robb, and Alan K. Simpson.

Man take your pick. Simpson is probably the only one in the bunch you could trust to keep his yap shut.

218 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:28:26am

#215 Kenneth

#212 abc-m-xyz

I have posted them here time & again over the past 2 months. They are also available on the web. You can start with the article Charles linked to at the top of this thread. If you want to read them go look them up, I won't do your homework.


Yes, I looked at the article you refer to here I fail to see one quote made by Baker the 3rd or Hamilton. What I do see is this:

“Those who favor immediate withdrawal will not like it,” he said, but it also “deviates significantly from the president’s strategy.”

and

Their report, as described by those familiar with the compromise, may give Republicans political cover to back away from parts of the president’s current strategy, even if Democrats claim that the report is short on specific deadlines

Just as I said such reports and committees were for, to give political cover to people inside of the Beltway.

and

The report recommends that Mr. Bush make it clear that he intends to start the withdrawal relatively soon, and people familiar with the debate over the final language said the implicit message was that the process should begin sometime next year.

Sounds pretty immediate to me and way before the "job is finished". It waddles like a duck, it quacks like a duck, I am reasonably certain that it is a duck.

219 TMF  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:30:41am
people familiar with the debate over the final language said the implicit message

Yeah, thats clear as a f'in bell

No spin there

"Implicit" messages?

"People"?

LOL

220 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:36:22am
221 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:37:30am

Orwell called.


He wants his intellectual property back.


The Ministry of Peace, which concerned itself with war
Thanks Ringo and Ken and TFK and Selpaw.

See you manyana.

222 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:38:01am
223 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:40:34am

Pre-election observations concerning the implementation of the recommendations made by the Iraq Study Group:


Is the White House likely to follow any of the recommendations?

This is likely to depend heavily on the results of next month's mid-term elections for the US Congress. If, as expected, the Republicans lose control of one or both houses then there will be added pressure on the White House to change its Iraq policy. The Iraq Study Group is the perfect vehicle to do this.

Given Baker's close relationship with the Bush family, it is inconceivable that he would propose policy changes that the White House would find unacceptable. He has on the panel a number of very influencial Democrats. The idea is that a policy change would be made that would satisfy the resurgent Democrats and keep the Bush Administration on board. If Baker can pull off a compromise like this then I believe there is a good chance that the recommendations will be adopted.

That said, if the Republicans do better than expected there will be less pressure on the Bush Administration to make meaningful changes. In that case the recommendations could be quietly shelved.

The excerpted passages in #218 hint at what this individual states above. More quacking.

224 Ed Mahmoud abu al Qahool Martyr Brigades  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:41:12am

ST LOUIS AREA ICE STORM UPDATE & NEWARK NEW JERSEY SEVERE THUNDERSTORM DISASTER ALERT


St Louis has started mixing with snow, which maybe, just maybe, saves them from the super-humongous ice storm. Still, the snow may be wet enough to cake powerlines and trees, so may still have some power outages. People in Eastern Missouri should have plenty of liquid refreshment on hand. One good thing about power failure in winter storm- unlike a hurricane, when the AC is out and you can't strip any less than the boxer shorts, in cold weather can always put on more clothes. Let the faucets run, I guess, burst pipes and no power would suck. Food will stay fresh outside the back door in the snow and ice.

The 12Z NAM still calls for a major ice storm for STL, but temps predicted at 18Z a shade too warm, and with snow mixing in, I'm leaning more snow, less ice, but still enough for some power outages.

Chicago also looks like a lot of snow, setting up, perhaps, in conditional slantwise convective bands, meaning stripes of 15 inches of snow will be embedded among a more general 6 to 10 inch snow.

Still looking at thunderstorms tomorrow afternoon at DCA, BWI, PHL and EWR/JFK to perhaps mix down 70 to 80 knot winds, enough to flip mobile homes, put trees through roofs, and down powerlines, and, as mentioned before, despite limited instability, low level wind shear, with helicity values near 800m2s-2 and low cloud bases mean the extremely rare December tornado can't be completely ruled out.

Lets look at the forecast sounding for Danbury, CT for tomorrow evening.

Surface CAPE is not quite 500 Joules/Kg, enough to support thunderstorms, but not super impressive. But winds near 70 knots just 450 meters above the ground. Note also very steep lapse rates between about 900 and 750 mb. With that helicity, almost 900 J/Kg, any cell that forms ahead of the linear forcing could have a tornado, and even the squall line will mix down winds well in excess of hurricane force.

225 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:43:27am

#216 abc-m-xyz


"I'm fairly confident that we will meet with a high representative of the (Iranian) government," he said at a press conference at the U.S. Institute of Peace (USIP),

It doesn't say what he will talk about, and this is certainly no evidence Bush told him to ask Iran for help. or to go kiss mullah butt. Maybe what he is to say to the Iranians is to tell them to stop meddling or we will bomb the shit out of them. (that too is spin)

#218 abc-m-xyz

Again, you are quote NYT spin as if it came from Baker's mouth or the ISG report. It hasn't.

Anyway, in light of the report today of direct evidence of Iranian weapons being supplied to Sadr's militia, and the report yesterday Iran arranged for Hezbollah to train the same militias, I cannot see the Bush admin capitulating.

Buried in the middle of the report linked above,

“I think we’ve played a constructive role,” one person involved in the committee’s deliberations said, “but from the beginning, we’ve worried that this entire agenda could be swept away by events.”

Events. With all the crap going down in Lebanon, events may well overwhelm the MSM agenda of pushing for US surrender in Iraq.

226 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:46:02am

How eager was the President to have this study group begin?

MARGARET WARNER: You say in your book that you do meet frequently with this President Bush. Do you think he is ready, he is looking for some new approach?

JAMES BAKER: I can't answer that for you. All I can tell you is that, when the Congress urged the formation of this group, he looked me in the eye and said, "Yes, I would like you to do it." So we'll wait and see.

I guess President Bush didn't dig in his heels about this study group commencing as he did about the 9-11 Commission.

227 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:50:31am

#225 Kenneth

#216 abc-m-xyz

"I'm fairly confident that we will meet with a high representative of the (Iranian) government," he said at a press conference at the U.S. Institute of Peace (USIP),

It doesn't say what he will talk about, and this is certainly no evidence Bush told him to ask Iran for help. or to go kiss mullah butt. Maybe what he is to say to the Iranians is to tell them to stop meddling or we will bomb the shit out of them. (that too is spin)

I don't care if they talk about their various physical afflictions, what I do care about is that the President of the United States of America, the man that uttered the words "Axis of Evil" and than named the participants now is more than willing to speak to one of the members of that axis. Oh and don't bother saying that he will not be speaking with the mullahs directly, he might as well be.

It is the United States of America, that is going with "hat in hand" to french kiss mullah butt, not the other way around and that is unacceptable.

228 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:54:48am
229 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:56:24am

#225 Kenneth

#218 abc-m-xyz

Again, you are quote NYT spin as if it came from Baker's mouth or the ISG report. It hasn't.

Anyway, in light of the report today of direct evidence of Iranian weapons being supplied to Sadr's militia, and the report yesterday Iran arranged for Hezbollah to train the same militias, I cannot see the Bush admin capitulating.

It was your suggestion that I use the article Charles posted above, so I did. Now you don't like my parsing of the words contained within so you want to dismiss it after having failed to provide me with an alternative source?

As for weapons being provided to Sadr, that is old news and will not sway this administration. It has been known for months that it was the Iranians that were either supplying the newer deadlier roadside bombs or that the roadside bombs had their technological fingerprints all over them. Nothing was done than, nothing will be done now.

The United States is weak, and its weakness is observable by the whole world.

230 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:57:13am

#225 Kenneth

I forgot to address this:

Events. With all the crap going down in Lebanon, events may well overwhelm the MSM agenda of pushing for US surrender in Iraq.

Lebanon was lost when Israel lost the war with Hizballah.

231 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:59:23am

#227 abc-m-xyz

It is the United States of America, that is going with "hat in hand" to french kiss mullah butt, not the other way around and that is unacceptable.

I just do not equate speaking with them to "going with "hat in hand" to french kiss mullah butt,". It makes a whole lot of difference what the US representative says if & when they talk.

"Stop meddling in Iraq & Lebanon or we will take forceful action againt you" = good diplomacy.

"Please help us bring peace to Iraq & you can have Lebanon" = horrible diplomatic capitulation.

Let's see what they actually say.

232 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 9:59:41am
233 selpaw  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:00:05am

190 abc-m-xyz

The stench eminanting from this "meeting" smells vaguely like the stench of the Waziristan Peace Deal signed by Musharaf a month or two ago.

But let's all pretend it is something else/

203 aaron

Compare and contrast:

U.S. Denies Trade-Off Between Iraq, Israel

But Bush clearly has bought in:

President Bush said achieving Israeli-Palestinian peace was key to stabilizing the wider Middle East.
“There is no question that if we were able to settle the Israeli-Palestinian issue it would help bring more peace to the Middle East,” Bush told reporters Thursday after meeting Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki in Amman.

Right. I'm sure Palestinian statehood will cause the Shia and Sunni in Iraq to lay down their arms. I could go on, but what's the point...


But let's all pretend it is something else/

Babba....power to those who throw their ice cream down ; -)

sending (((HUGS))))

234 solomonpanting  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:03:22am

Maybe the French will take the heat off of our Iraq "quagmire".
"Hey, look, whose raised the bar
France out of the CAR."

235 Endangered in Mass  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:03:25am

how about something like:

Redeploy for divirsity.

236 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:04:11am

#232 taxfreekiller

#230

edit,,
when they were told by the Bush adm. to "loose"

In the end, what matters is the result. They lost.

237 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:07:01am

#233 selpaw

190 abc-m-xyz

The stench eminanting from this "meeting" smells vaguely like the stench of the Waziristan Peace Deal signed by Musharaf a month or two ago.

But let's all pretend it is something else/

After the Waziristan Peace Deal, I read an article or two that said suggestions were made that we use the WPD as a model for Afghanistan. My draw dropped when it quoted a high ranking military individual that thought it was a swell idea.

238 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:09:02am

#231 Kenneth

"Please help us bring peace to Iraq & you can have Lebanon" = horrible diplomatic capitulation.

Lebanon is not on the chopping block, Israel is. Lebanon was lost to the West and under mullah control when Israel lost the war with Hizballah.

239 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:09:27am

#237

draw should have been jaw

240 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:10:30am

#229 abc-m-xyz

The NYT article contains very few direct quotes from the commission, a few "sources close to the commission" quotes and lots of reporter/editorial spin. One has to distinguish the difference, that's all I'm saying.

Lebanon is not lost yet. I don't believe Israel "lost" the war with Hezbollah, but neither did they win outright. Hezbollah got a bloody nose. Israelis learned they cannot fight the next war with half measures. Round 2 (or is that 3, 4?) is coming up soon. I sure hope that milquetoast Olmert is gone from office by then (next spring).

Yes, there were reports about Iranian weapons before. Now we have some fresh reports of fresh weapons. And it came out now. Somebody is making an effort to shift the media war.

241 seejanemom  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:13:11am

Let Jim Webb go suck a d*ck. I hear he's quite willing.................

242 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:19:10am

#240 Kenneth

#229 abc-m-xyz

The NYT article contains very few direct quotes from the commission, a few "sources close to the commission" quotes and lots of reporter/editorial spin. One has to distinguish the difference, that's all I'm saying.

Lebanon is not lost yet. I don't believe Israel "lost" the war with Hezbollah, but neither did they win outright. Hezbollah got a bloody nose. Israelis learned they cannot fight the next war with half measures. Round 2 (or is that 3, 4?) is coming up soon. I sure hope that milquetoast Olmert is gone from office by then (next spring).

Yes, there were reports about Iranian weapons before. Now we have some fresh reports of fresh weapons. And it came out now. Somebody is making an effort to shift the media war.

The NYT article may contain very few direct quotes, but Baker the 3rd has a long history inside the Beltway and it's a stretch to claim that he will not french kiss mullah butt.

Lebanon may not be technically lost, it is teetering on the edge. The problem is there is no one to pull them back, no one, there is only Hizballah, Iran's baby, that will push them over the edge right into Iran's open arms.

In order to determine if Israel lost the war with Hizballah, all you need to do is compare and contrast Israel's stated goals before military activity began and what they ended up with at the end of their military activities. In other words, you use the very measuring stick that Israel created in order to determine if they won the war/battle or not. According to their measuring stick, they lost, or have I missed the return of the kidnapped soldiers or missed the destruction of Hizballah?

243 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:21:30am
244 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:25:14am

#243 taxfreekiller

#242

he re-deployed to the thread above

The use of re-deployed made me laugh. Excellent use of the buzzword. lol

245 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:28:25am

242 abc-m-xyz

I'm not impressed with Baker's record on Israel either. I hope that he has been listening to bush on that subject.

Lebanon is not lost, but yes, it is teetering. The US has said it will support Lebanese independance. It remains to be seen what form that support will take.

Israel achieved some of it's goals, but not all of them. The kidnapped soldiers are still captive:(a failure) Hezbollah was not destroyed, but it was pushed back from the border & greatly weakened. (partial success) Hundreds of fighters were killed and thousands of rockets were destroyed. Lots of intel was gathered. And Hezbollah has lost some public support in Lebanon. Next time, Hezbollah will fight the same way, because their leaders have told them they were victorious. The IDF will studied the action and altere tactics accordingly. Next time Hezbollah will be wiped out.

246 Catttt  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:33:06am

Senator-Elect Webb, imho, is the worst disaster to be elected to office this year. I really loathe him, based on his past actions, and I was not surprised that he was rude to the President, which is beyond the pale for everyone else (so I guess he considers himself a trend-setter).

If a novelist has to be a senator, why can't it be Vince Flynn instead?

247 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:34:00am

#245 Kenneth

Israel achieved some of it's goals, but not all of them. The kidnapped soldiers are still captive:(a failure) Hezbollah was not destroyed, but it was pushed back from the border & greatly weakened. (partial success) Hundreds of fighters were killed and thousands of rockets were destroyed. Lots of intel was gathered. And Hezbollah has lost some public support in Lebanon. Next time, Hezbollah will fight the same way, because their leaders have told them they were victorious. The IDF will studied the action and altere tactics accordingly. Next time Hezbollah will be wiped out.

I will accept your assessment of "partical success", but if reports are correct, Hizballah has rearmed and is back to 100% with the added protection of UN forces.

You are assuming that there will be another fight, I am not so sure. As for IDF studying its actions, the last time I read about the IDF, its leadership was claiming victory and I have heard nary a peep of re-evaluation of that victory.

248 Kobyashi Maru  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:41:58am

Troll comment of the day...

We should cut and run. W never was willing to call this what it is, so the lesson we impose is if we don't like your country we will destroy it and not stay around to help pick up the pieces.

That is what an army does, kill people and break things, not paint schools. W said it himself. Screw them, we need a crash course in energy independence, 100 new nuke plants, solar, wind everything. They have oil and no water; let 'em drink oil.

249 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:43:40am

#247 abc-m-xyz

if reports are correct, Hizballah has rearmed and is back to 100% with the added protection of UN forces.

yes, reports are they have received lots more missiles from Syria/Iran, how many we don't know, it could be boasting on theri part. as for the UN forces, they will be used by Hezbollah as human shields. Some (Bangledeshi & Indonesians) may even fight on Hezbollah's side. It will get ugly. Here's a prediction: the UN will condemn Israel!

You are assuming that there will be another fight, I am not so sure. As for IDF studying its actions, the last time I read about the IDF, its leadership was claiming victory and I have heard nary a peep of re-evaluation of that victory.

John Keegan, Amir Tahiri, Michael Totten & others have predicted another war next year. Nasrallah could be that stupid, and Assad could be that desperate.

As for the IDF, they are a great army. I've heard both views in the media, we can pick & choose our favourites, but at the end of the day, I don't believe the entire senior command of the IDF has decided to surrender to Hezbollah, Syria, Hamas or to that idiot Olmert.

250 Kobyashi Maru  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:44:39am

Or consider plan 2; mess one hair on our head anywhere and kiss mecca and medina, tehran etc., goodbye, half life 50,000 years. Things should settle down by then

251 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:45:37am

#248 Kobyashi Maru

Gosh, such a far reaching and realistic plan. Have you considered running for President? You could just snap your fingers and make all our problems go away!

252 InRussetShadows  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:53:13am

Defeatists unite! The world is growing more grim and beclouded by the day, but what have we to fear from a few errant rays of hope or progress? We can count on the united front of the defeatists, who will leave no stone unturned in convincing the world that things are worse, much worse, than they appear to be. For not only does this world suck, but victory cannot be had, anywhere. The MSM? They speak the truth if it helps the cause of defeat. The non-MSM? Them too. From Buchanan to Marx to Koz to Justin Raimando, the source doesn't matter, as long as America, her troops, her commanders, her generals, are all portrayed as a bunch of lackwitted nincompoops with five stars for failure. What a drag, that these people are taking so long to be defeated. Why, if they'd listened to godlike us, they'd have been defeated in a few short weeks! Remember, there is no hope, there is no chance of victory, there is only defeath -- now or later. This has been your defeatist e-gram of utter hopeless and futility for the day.

253 kepler2007  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 10:57:39am

Baker is idiot so anything he or the Iraq Study Group is useless. I however do favor the run and burn strategy. As we leave we kill everyone who has ticked us off over the last three years like Sadr and burn and waste a few major cities. Then we leave and let the big Sunni Vs. Shiite war take off.

Look at what will happen if we leave Iraq...

Shiite vs. Sunni
Iran vs. Saudi Arabia
Turkey vs. Kurds
Kurds vs. Arabs
Turkey Vs. Syria
Syria falls apart
Egyptians, Iranians, others fight it out for Mecca

It will be GREAT! No more more money for the global Jihad with Mecca in play.

My dream come true....

Check out

[Link: www.khaleejtimes.com...]

Also Robert Spencers take..."Iraqi Shias angry at Saudi remark on aid to Sunnis"

[Link: www.jihadwatch.org...]

254 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:02:14am
there is only defeath -- now or later.

Rotating title typo winner of the day.


Oh
and STFU,
sockpuppet one.
The least you could do
was be intentionally funny.

VICTORY OVER DEFEATH!

255 Earth2moonbat  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:09:11am

#254 BabbaZee

there is only defeath -- now or later.

Does that come before or after the beheading?

256 Kenneth  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:12:49am

255 Earth2moonbat

there is only defeath -- now or later.
Does that come before or after the beheading?

firtht you cut off the feet-th and then the headth. Ith an ithlamic thang!

257 Canadhimmis  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:15:27am

178 blackelkspeaks,

We've already lost.

And I think we've already won. IMO, the turning points were:

- on September 11th when those on Flight 93 faught back.

- Three or four days later, it became clear that Arab terrorists were behind the atrocities. Americans didn't go vigil ante and round up Arabs by the truck loads.

- When the US military didn't glassify Mecca and Medina.

This is when we won. (Although it is by no means finished and will have many victories and setbacks.)

258 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:17:50am

#254 BabbaZee

VICTORY OVER DEFEATH!

Funny.

259 abc-m-xyz  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:18:47am

#255 Earth2moonbat

Does that come before or after the beheading?

Before.

260 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:23:19am

#255 Earth2moonbat
KenneTH goth ith

LTH oth Lth

261 moses99  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:26:56am

Simple solution for Iraq:

1: Declare complete media blackout

2: Order all world media out of Iraq

3: Turn USA forces LOOSE for 3 months unfettered

4: Only the brass gives orders...Washington to be incomminicado for 3 months

5: Announce results at end of 3 months.

SITUATION RESOLVED!

262 EC Marm  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:30:53am

BabbaZee:
Can you hear that? I think I hear music. Sorry I missed the misfith, chores.

263 BabbaZee  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:37:53am

#262 EC Marm

Ahhhhhhhh.
Sweet!


/Time for me to get my chef of the future chaps on.

264 infidel4ever  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 11:54:59am

Since so many political geniusses seem to know best what to do about Iraq, this is maybe a silly question.

What do the military recommend about Iraq? Aren't they the trained experts at this game of winning wars?

Like I said, probably a silly, stupid question...

265 beens21  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 12:13:55pm

[Link: www.usip.org...] What possible expertise do Vernon Jordan or Sandra O'Connor have to advise Bush about troop deployment or anything else in Iraq?

266 Kobyashi Maru  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 12:15:22pm

Hey Infidel, that's the problem, when uniforms spoke out against the wire brush, they got canned. They dare not speak, that isUCMJ/Political Omerta at work.

Colin Powell Doctrine of overwhelming force was tossed out the window, so after having Congress and the support of the people for at least the first 3 years of the war they have blown it and

You only get Medal of Freedom for totally screwing things up, Brownie....

I know I will keep getting blown out for this, but now everybody here blames the moonbats! Crazy, W blew this period. Waht a moron.

/no sarc

267 SaneInMN  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 12:50:57pm

Striking a Deal with A Regime Currently Killing Our Soldiers and Scores of Iraqis...Not to Mention a Country led by a Man Who is a Proud Holocaust Denier and Who Has Called for the Elimination of Israel

From [Link: www.powerlineblog.com...]

It's Official: Iran Arming Iraqi Militias

ABC News reports that according to U.S. defense sources, incontrovertible proof now exists of Iran's material assistance to Iraqi Shiite forces:

U.S. officials say they have found smoking-gun evidence of Iranian support for terrorists in Iraq: brand-new weapons fresh from Iranian factories. According to a senior defense official, coalition forces have recently seized Iranian-made weapons and munitions that bear manufacturing dates in 2006.
Iranian-made munitions found in Iraq include advanced IEDs designed to pierce armor and anti-tank weapons. U.S. intelligence believes the weapons have been supplied to Iraq's growing Shia militias from Iran's Islamic Revolutionary Guards Corps, which is also believed to be training Iraqi militia fighters in Iran.


This has been known or suspected for a while, of course. The 2006 munitions may have just been captured, or this news may be part of an effort to influence public reaction to the soon-to-be-released Baker-Hamilton report. If we're going to "talk to Iran," as the Baker commission is expected to recommend, what, exactly, are we going to tell Ahmadinejad that will convince him that instead of fomenting and enabling violence in Iraq, he should help us stop it?

268 SaneInMN  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 12:56:22pm

266...

Waht a moron.

Speaks volumes...

Oh, how hindsight is soooo 20/20! BTW, Maru...so a media that is either in the tank for our enemies (see AP/Reuters/CNN/BBC), or has detested the President since 2000, had nothing to do with turning public opinion away from the war?

269 froghat  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 12:59:57pm

President Bush has been the President for 6 years and you guys still don't trust him? Why in the world would he pull out early? It would ruin Iraq,hurt the US, stengthen Iran, and totally destroy Bush's legecy. Like I said last night... this Baker panel is a bunch of crap. He's giving the democrats a cookie so they shut up for a while. It's comical you guys think Bush is going to lay down and let Baker tell him what to do. It's not gonna happen. NEVER!

270 scaramouche  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 1:49:36pm

Melanie Phillips says the ISG is getting ready to throw Israel to the wolves.

271 Kobyashi Maru  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 2:53:25pm

#268 Sane

I hate Baker, he is an arabist from way back. Prez has never had the courage to say what this really is; a war between Islam and it's enemies. Us. The Prez had this to win or lose and no doubt we won the war in 2 weeks, Bremer was a total disaster, billions were squandered and all good will was pissed away. The media hates W; so what; had he pulled this off, and stabilized the country after the war, he would have had a 90% approval rating now.

Have we "won" by any metric? I called a bet less than a month ago that W would announce a cut and run under another moniker and nobody took me up on it, not one Lizard. You all must be blind not to have seen this coming. Don't blame Pelosi, Rove blew the election. You can only cry wolf like gay marriage, so often. Americans hate long wars and focus on little things like the soldiers accused of raping and killing someone....that is the most miniscule thing ever, but ya gotta live with it.

We imposed democracy on savages. The Germans and Japanese were highly educated and cultured and were totally crushed when we occupied them. We hardly scratched the surface before this occupation.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it......if I get hooted outta here, then like Groucho, I never should have joined.

272 itellu3times  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 2:54:34pm

It may not be as bad as it looks.

The current rules of engagement suck, not enough carpet bombing for my taste, too much urban patrol.

Slowly pull the troops out, that is, overnight redeploy under different operational plans and slowly move to more remote bases.

To be blunt, what are the options? I wouldn't want to serve there under current rules. It's not horrible, but it's making no (positive) progress, so even minor (!) casualities suck. We're not going to stand it for twenty years, are we? Politically impossible, whatever the imaginary merits. Ten years? Five?

Yeah, it's tough on the Iraqi civilians, but so was Saddam. Pick up a gun and fight, folks, get it settled already. Or, y'know, make peace, and ENFORCE it.*

Now, if France and Germany and Russia and India and Pakistan wanted to send another 200k troops, and (just to be clear) have them on our side, well, who knows, it might be worth continuing for more years, just out of international kumbayah.

At this point, Dubya has to do something different. The world just won't stay his course for twenty years, and it might take more like 100 or 1000 or 10000 - the Islamic world has been at war with itself for 1500 years, so why should it stop now on our behalf? Unless we're seriously willing to make our point, if you know what I mean. And I suspect that time may come, but perhaps it's just not now.

*Has the west ever, since Greek and Roman times, suffered the kind of chaos endemic to the Arab world, Islam or not? I think not, not even the French Terror or Stalinist Russia were this disorganized. The Arabs know themselves: "better a century of tyranny than a year of chaos", they say. Hah.

273 useless  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 2:56:02pm

#270 scara...

You sound supprised that libs would throw Israel to the wolves? Libs have no problem leaving piles and piles of murdered people if it serves their political ends. It's just little brown or yellow people that die, who cares?

The libs have found new friends in the latinos that are pouring over the borders, they can jettison jews at any point now (just like they did to Lieberman, look how easy it was!)and they just don't need the jewis vote anymore. It's not like the jews will go over to the republicans (who they feel are no better than little Hitlers)

It has been my theory for several years now that when libs come back into power, not only will we loose the ME, but Israel will be a killing field and NO.ONE.WILL.DO.A.THING.

Dems and libs are all about easy. It is always easy to let the bad guys win. All you have to do is nothing. Libs are good at that.

274 j-damn  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 5:59:45pm
170 Kenneth 11/30/2006 10:10AM PST

#155 Peter Verkooijen

Leave the lady alone.

Charles doesn't seem bothered, and this is his joint. Personally, I like her musicaly references, they're often right on the topic.

If you don't like it, scroll.

I'm going to get carpal fucking tunnel syndrome from all the scrolling--insipid song lyrics, dumbass weather reports. I come here to read intelligent takes on the issues facing America and the fucking place is littered with Queen lyrics and links to illegal mp3s. Nice.

275 j-damn  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 6:02:30pm
Or consider plan 2; mess one hair on our head anywhere and kiss mecca and medina, tehran etc., goodbye, half life 50,000 years. Things should settle down by then

On 9/12/01, someone from a Western government should have said exactly that: the next time a Westerner is killed by a Mohammedan, anywhere, a random Muslim city is incinerated.

Yes, Dearborn is included.

276 RadicalRon  Thu, Nov 30, 2006 8:30:50pm

Cool, like, peace in our time, man.


/channeling Koslamistan

277 taxfreekiller[deleted]  Fri, Dec 1, 2006 5:41:25am

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