Overnight Open Thread
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Bond: Do you expect me to talk?
Goldfinger: [looks back, laughing] No, Mr Bond, I expect you to die!
— Goldfinger
697 comments
2 |
jcm Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:15:03pm |
Airspeed systems failed on US planes
On at least a dozen recent flights by U.S. jetliners, malfunctioning equipment made it impossible for pilots to know how fast they were flying, federal investigators have discovered. A similar breakdown is believed to have played a role in the Air France crash into the Atlantic that killed all 228 people aboard in June.
The discovery suggests the equipment problems are more widespread than previously believed. And it gives new urgency to airlines already scrambling to replace air sensors and figure out how the errors went undetected despite safety systems.
The equipment failures, all involving Northwest Airlines Airbus A330s, were brief and were noticed only after safety officials began investigating the Air France crash — on a Rio de Janeiro to Paris flight — and two other recent in-flight malfunctions. The failures were described by people familiar with the investigation who spoke only on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to comment publicly.
| 3 |
fizzlogic Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:20:22pm |
Whatever you do, don't watch this segment of the Rachel Maddow show which includes an interview with Frank Schaffer the author of “Crazy for God”.
| 4 |
BARACK THE VOTE Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:20:43pm |
| 5 |
Soona' Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:23:41pm |
| 7 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:28:01pm |
Daniel Hannan, Member of E.U Parliament, on ObamaCare: "Are you people insane"?
A desperate intervention from a man who’s already seen this car crash up close, wondering why any free people would tolerate it short of a major war forcing them to.
"... we have 1.4 million people employed by our national health service. It is the third biggest employer in the world after the Red Army in China and the India National Railways -- most of those 1.4 million people are administrators. The managers outnumber the doctors and nurses and that is the electoral block that makes it almost impossible to get rid of. So if you do this thing ... don't imagine that you can come back in a few years and change your minds."
| 8 |
Soona' Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:33:33pm |
re: #7 HelloDare
Daniel Hannan, Member of E.U Parliament, on ObamaCare: "Are you people insane"?A desperate intervention from a man who’s already seen this car crash up close, wondering why any free people would tolerate it short of a major war forcing them to.
I knew that zerocare would employ a huge number of people, but the electoral ramifications I had never thought of. Thanks for posting that. That gives me a little more ammunition against this cluster.
| 9 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:35:11pm |
re: #7 HelloDare
Bold prediction...us right-wing extremists will be told to stop listening to the Euros because they have no idea what the fuck they're talking about by the MSM and White House...
| 11 |
jcm Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:38:23pm |
It's late.
I've a pint of Stone 13th Anniversary on board.
I'm outta here.
Night all.
| 13 |
Kulhwch Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:43:05pm |
A couple of videos of interest in the ongoing health care debate. These particular videos may have already been posted here, if so, forgive me, but they just today got me chewed out in a more 'liberal' site by people claiming to be friends (but, apparently no more), and I wanted to get everyone else's take on them:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
... I'm kidding you not, one person came unglued, the air was full of insults and strawmen, etc.
Examples of responses:
I admit I did not watch whatever this. I have no desire to yet more hysteria from either side. But even if it's true to some extent, what is the problem with letting the elderly die? Why are we obsessed about extending the life of people who have worn out their bodies? (Or about forcing mal-formed fetuses which have been rejected by nature to live?)
Since I already have planned for my demise when I become a burden, advised my daughter of my wishes and shown her how to execute the process, I may not be the best person to try to frighten with the prospect of allowing adults to make their own end of life choices. What I don't have is any medical coverage. Nor can I get any. I am the only employee of my company and insurance companies don't offer plans for us. I could, allegedly get it on my own, assuming I can find someone who will cover a 50 plus, overweight woman. But no pre-existing condition would be covered and it would cost 3/4 of what I make.
... and my personal favorite:
OMG was an ass
I TOLD you I did not watch the rightwing nut propaganda. It always amazes me that a thinking person can be a fucking conservative. You don't want me to read the shit you post. FINE! You don't need to be my friend, jerk.
Who knew that Barry's Folk would be this sensitive to a little questioning ... ?
This IS the first time I've ever lost what one of us claimed was a friendship over something like this. Maybe I shouldn't have pointed out the lack of reasoning, etc. But in a stance with one's principles, one should stand behind them, right? They came into my space to post their comments on my postings, I've never done the reverse on their statements, even when I find them so hateful that I no longer want to read them.
In other words, I let them have their opinions. Was I wrong?
}:) [Ah, well, best rid of them, I suppose.]
| 14 |
Soona' Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:46:02pm |
re: #10 jcm
Yep Airbus, not Boeing.
The bad part about it is that I've always liked flying in Airbus airplanes. Up to the Brazil - Paris crash I had always thought them to be well built. After that I started thinking about it, and remembered that the crash on Long Island, shortly after 9/11 was caused by a structure failure on an Airbus plane. (The vertical stabilizer sheared off) Makes me wonder about government built anything.
| 15 |
Syrah Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:50:07pm |
re: #13 Kulhwch
A couple of videos of interest in the ongoing health care debate. These particular videos may have already been posted here, if so, forgive me, but they just today got me chewed out in a more 'liberal' site by people claiming to be friends (but, apparently no more), and I wanted to get everyone else's take on them:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
... I'm kidding you not, one person came unglued, the air was full of insults and strawmen, etc.
Examples of responses:
Who knew that Barry's Folk would be this sensitive to a little questioning ... ?
This IS the first time I've ever lost what one of us claimed was a friendship over something like this. Maybe I shouldn't have pointed out the lack of reasoning, etc. But in a stance with one's principles, one should stand behind them, right? They came into my space to post their comments on my postings, I've never done the reverse on their statements, even when I find them so hateful that I no longer want to read them.
In other words, I let them have their opinions. Was I wrong?
}:) [Ah, well, best rid of them, I suppose.]
To lose such fair-weather friends as those may not be much of a loss.
| 16 |
Fenway_Nation Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:51:20pm |
re: #13 Kulhwch
Could be worse- could be your own kinfolk acting like that.
| 17 |
Wendya Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:52:05pm |
re: #8 Soona'
I knew that zerocare would employ a huge number of people, but the electoral ramifications I had never thought of. Thanks for posting that. That gives me a little more ammunition against this cluster.
Why do you think the democrats were pimping card check? They want a system where voters are indebted to them.
| 18 |
HelloDare Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:54:11pm |
re: #8 Soona'
I knew that zerocare would employ a huge number of people, but the electoral ramifications I had never thought of. Thanks for posting that. That gives me a little more ammunition against this cluster.
Don't forget about all the people who pay very little in taxes. In 2007 the bottom 50% in adjusted gross income ( $32,879 and less) paid only 2.89% of the total Federal Income Tax.
Thomas Sowell is afraid that we are approaching the point of no return where those paying little or no taxes and those living on entitlements will outnumber all the other taxpayers. They will vote for massive government handouts and the America we know today will be gone.
| 20 |
zombie Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:56:02pm |
When I was a young naive moonbat, I robotically thought that "medical care should be free!" and the "doctors should work for the sake of altruism, not for money!"
But of course I never really thought it through. I foolishly imagined I was having an original thought and that I was being wise and clever.
Ah, youth! It can be so charming at times. But at other times -- such as this one -- it can be annoying.
Now, of course, I realize that "there's no such thing as free." Somebody's gotta pay for it. And that somebody was me. Except I wasn't going to be paying for my own health care, I'd be paying (through my taxes) for everybody's healthcare.
When I go to a restaurant by myself, I order something inexpensive or reasonable and pay for it myself. But what really cheeses me off is when i go to a restaurant with a bunch or friends of co-workers and we all agree to split the bill, then everybody else proceeds to order margaritas and lobster paté while I order a small salad and a lemonade. At the end I have to fork over $35 to co-pay for everyone else's extravagance.
That's what socialized medicine is like. Although I try to keep myself healthy, I still have to pay for everyone else's bad habits, bad diet, stupid lifestyles and stupid decisions.
And it's cheesing me off big-time.
| 21 |
BARACK THE VOTE Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:12pm |
re: #13 Kulhwch
This IS the first time I've ever lost what one of us claimed was a friendship over something like this. Maybe I shouldn't have pointed out the lack of reasoning, etc. But in a stance with one's principles, one should stand behind them, right? They came into my space to post their comments on my postings, I've never done the reverse on their statements, even when I find them so hateful that I no longer want to read them.In other words, I let them have their opinions. Was I wrong?
}:) [Ah, well, best rid of them, I suppose.]
I'm sorry to hear that. It's always sad when relationships rupture over politics. You'd always like to think we can all get along even when we disagree, right?
As to your videos...I didn't watch the first one yet, but I note the second features Betsy McCaughey, who has a long and documented history of lying about health care going back to the Clinton admin:
Betsy McCaughey first came to prominence for a New Republic article entitled "No Exit." The conceit of the piece was that unlike everyone else, McCaughey had pored over every page and paragraph of the massive Clinton health bill and come back with a clearer view of the legislation's contours than anyone had previously presented. And what she'd found was worrying. "The law will prevent you from going outside the system to buy basic health coverage you think is better," McCaughey wrote. "The doctor can be paid only by the plan, not by you." Hence, "No Exit." You were trapped in the system.
McCaughey, it turned out, isn't a very good reader.
Maybe that was why one of your friends melted down? If so, it's too bad they couldn't calm down and discuss it rationally. Anyway, sorry to hear that.
| 22 |
Soona' Fri, Aug 7, 2009 11:59:23pm |
re: #13 Kulhwch
A couple of videos of interest in the ongoing health care debate. These particular videos may have already been posted here, if so, forgive me, but they just today got me chewed out in a more 'liberal' site by people claiming to be friends (but, apparently no more), and I wanted to get everyone else's take on them:
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
[Link: www.youtube.com...]
... I'm kidding you not, one person came unglued, the air was full of insults and strawmen, etc.
Examples of responses:
Who knew that Barry's Folk would be this sensitive to a little questioning ... ?This IS the first time I've ever lost what one of us claimed was a friendship over something like this. Maybe I shouldn't have pointed out the lack of reasoning, etc. But in a stance with one's principles, one should stand behind them, right? They came into my space to post their comments on my postings, I've never done the reverse on their statements, even when I find them so hateful that I no longer want to read them.
In other words, I let them have their opinions. Was I wrong?
}:) [Ah, well, best rid of them, I suppose.]
We've known for a long time that the zero doesn't like to be laughed at about anything. He and all his frowning followers have absolutely no sense of humor. They are an angry, sullen lot. I'd hate to be them.
| 24 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:01:40am |
re: #18 HelloDare
Don't forget about all the people who pay very little in taxes. In 2007 the bottom 50% in adjusted gross income ( $32,879 and less) paid only 2.89% of the total Federal Income Tax.
Thomas Sowell is afraid that we are approaching the point of no return where those paying little or no taxes and those living on entitlements will outnumber all the other taxpayers. They will vote for massive government handouts and the America we know today will be gone.
I know and that's sad. Very sad. My older brother is one of them.
| 25 |
Syrah Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:03:08am |
re: #16 Fenway_Nation
Could be worse- could be your own kinfolk acting like that.
Yep. Been there. It sucked.
| 26 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:04:05am |
re: #18 HelloDare
Don't forget about all the people who pay very little in taxes. In 2007 the bottom 50% in adjusted gross income ( $32,879 and less) paid only 2.89% of the total Federal Income Tax.
Thomas Sowell is afraid that we are approaching the point of no return where those paying little or no taxes and those living on entitlements will outnumber all the other taxpayers. They will vote for massive government handouts and the America we know today will be gone.
there is a serious danger of that...40% pay zero taxes at this point and the number is growing...a cool thing if you are a socialist tho
| 27 |
zombie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:04:10am |
re: #24 Soona'
I know and that's sad. Very sad. My older brother is one of them.
My sister is one of them. But the silver lining? She doesn't vote. Never has, never will. Which is a good thing, because if she did, it would be the straight moonbat ticket every time.
She's too busy collecting handouts to bother with actual democracy.
| 28 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:04:11am |
| 29 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:05:20am |
re: #15 Syrah
To lose such fair-weather friends as those may not be much of a loss.
Yeah, I know, and I'm trying to toughen my hide ...
}:) [Thanks. Glad I'm not the only one who noticed.]
| 30 |
HelloDare Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:05:56am |
re: #20 zombie
With socialized medicine, it's more like you end up paying for what somebody you don't even know is having in some restaurant in a different town.
I don't drink so I've run into the problem a lot. I just tell the waiter or waitress up front to give me a separate check. Most of the time, the rest of the table doesn't even know until the bill comes.
Nobody seems to mind. A lot of times the others say, "I should have done that."
| 31 |
Jack Burton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:06:18am |
re: #20 zombie
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
It would be a positive "right" if at all and that means you have a right in lieu of a government scheme to enslave doctors to treat you for free.
| 32 |
tradewind Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:06:19am |
This saddens me, but looking back now, it should'a been totally obvious...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
| 33 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:07:27am |
re: #25 Syrah
Mine at least tend to be a bit more mellow, but offset that to a degree with their smugness...
| 34 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:08:10am |
re: #27 zombie
My sister is one of them. But the silver lining? She doesn't vote. Never has, never will. Which is a good thing, because if she did, it would be the straight moonbat ticket every time.
She's too busy collecting handouts to bother with actual democracy.
My brother is a government sucking professional. He and his wife are pulling down almost five grand a month off of my dime.
| 35 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:08:55am |
re: #32 tradewind
This saddens me, but looking back now, it should'a been totally obvious...
[Link: news.yahoo.com...]
better him than you...don't take it too seriously
| 36 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:09:57am |
re: #16 Fenway_Nation
Could be worse- could be your own kinfolk acting like that.
Well, funny story, that. Only Republican in my entire family tree, probably back two or three generations. So when I told my brother recently (who has many Republican leanings, he just lives in a very liberal state [Michigan]) that I had become a Republican a couple of years back, there were some bug-eyed moments.
}:D [But he accepts, mostly, my odd beliefs ... ]
| 37 |
Racer X Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:10:35am |
I am not frightened of dying. Anytime will do.
Why should I be?
| 39 |
zombie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:12:50am |
re: #34 Soona'
My brother is a government sucking professional. He and his wife are pulling down almost five grand a month off of my dime.
Do you mean they are professionals with advanced degrees working for the government -- or that they are "professionals" (said with sarcasm) at scamming benefits from government programs?
(My sister falls in the second category.)
| 40 |
zombie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:13:17am |
re: #31 ArchangelMichael
[Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]
It would be a positive "right" if at all and that means you have a right in lieu of a government scheme to enslave doctors to treat you for free.
I gave you updings for both comments!
| 41 |
HelloDare Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:13:46am |
Last paragraph of an article about a Fox News Poll.
Where does the government get its money anyway? While 65 percent understand the government's money is their taxpayer dollars at work, some 24 percent think the federal government has "plenty of its own money without using taxpayer dollars."
| 42 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:14:40am |
re: #20 zombie
When I go to a restaurant by myself, I order something inexpensive or reasonable and pay for it myself. But what really cheeses me off is when i go to a restaurant with a bunch or friends of co-workers and we all agree to split the bill, then everybody else proceeds to order margaritas and lobster paté while I order a small salad and a lemonade. At the end I have to fork over $35 to co-pay for everyone else's extravagance.
That's what socialized medicine is like. Although I try to keep myself healthy, I still have to pay for everyone else's bad habits, bad diet, stupid lifestyles and stupid decisions.
And it's cheesing me off big-time.
That's an excellent analogy, thank you. I'm going to steal it and use it on people ... it's simple enough that even the most jaded liberal SHOULD be able to understand it. You only forgot the part where they told you what you could have on the menu ...
}:) [I did say "SHOULD", you know ... ]
| 43 |
Syrah Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:16:18am |
re: #33 Fenway_Nation
Mine at least tend to be a bit more mellow, but offset that to a degree with their smugness...
I have learned to let them rant without comment. They are old woodstock type hippies, long gray hair and faded tie-day. I accept them for who they are.
| 44 |
HelloDare Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:17:01am |
re: #42 Kulhwch
That's an excellent analogy, thank you. I'm going to steal it and use it on people ... it's simple enough that even the most jaded liberal SHOULD be able to understand it. You only forgot the part where they told you what you could have on the menu ...
}:) [I did say "SHOULD", you know ... ]
Don't forget the extra tax to buy the busboy some shoes.
| 45 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:19:37am |
re: #21 iceweasel
Ah, now, I didn't know that about Betsy McCaughey. Jeez, I hate using a source that is questionable. I presumed (my fault, I admit) that because it was Fred Thompson doing the interview, that there was a certain, ah, gravitas.
Now I'm bummed. I always like what I post to be above reproach and in this case it may not have been. Shoot.
Thank you, though, for letting me know. Now I have to go do some fact checking on that particular incident.
}:( [Arrgghh ... ]
| 46 |
muddywood Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:25:29am |
Got my plane tickets today.
Washington DC on September 11th.
Going to the September 12th rally and then to the Hold Their Feet To the Fire event on the 13th through the 15th.
And if some union goon sets a finger on me I'll F-ing knee cap him.
THIS SHOULD BE FUN! :)
| 47 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:25:45am |
re: #22 Soona'
We've known for a long time that the zero doesn't like to be laughed at about anything. He and all his frowning followers have absolutely no sense of humor. They are an angry, sullen lot. I'd hate to be them.
Especially right now and in the near future. Agreed.
| 48 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:25:50am |
| 49 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:25:50am |
re: #37 Racer X
I am not frightened of dying. Anytime will do.
Why should I be?
Don't worry...Be happy.
| 50 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:26:05am |
re: #45 Kulhwch
Ah, now, I didn't know that about Betsy McCaughey. Jeez, I hate using a source that is questionable. I presumed (my fault, I admit) that because it was Fred Thompson doing the interview, that there was a certain, ah, gravitas.
Not your fault, IMO. McCaughey is getting loads of attention. The link I gave will do a through debunking of her claims there; I have many more if you have any specific questions about other specific claims she's made.
In any case, I believe your friends should have responded rationally and calmly to you, and not been abusive and just called it "right-wing propaganda". (It does happen to be r-w propaganda in this case, but you can't just call something propaganda--- on either side--- without explaining why it is. IMO.)
| 51 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:27:30am |
| 52 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:27:49am |
| 53 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:28:12am |
re: #39 zombie
Do you mean they are professionals with advanced degrees working for the government -- or that they are "professionals" (said with sarcasm) at scamming benefits from government programs?
(My sister falls in the second category.)
The second category. You hit it correctly when you wrote "scam". He's been doing it most of his life.
| 54 |
SFGoth Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:31:07am |
See if you can spot the "woah" moment in this article:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
| 55 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:33:06am |
re: #54 SFGoth
See if you can spot the "woah" moment in this article:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
Whoa. I just did.
| 56 |
Syrah Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:35:46am |
re: #52 Kulhwch
Ever any reconcilliation?
}:/ [Or even just acceptance?]
With family, reconciliation is easier. Yes. We still get along. I just don't allow myself to discuss politics or philosophy with them much beyond asking "dumb" questions. The Socratic method can be fun.
| 57 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:37:25am |
like molasss in January...slow blues in C
| 58 |
Jack Burton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:38:36am |
re: #54 SFGoth
See if you can spot the "woah" moment in this article:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
The asinine top comments?
| 59 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:39:33am |
anybody dig music on these over night threads?
| 60 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:40:42am |
re: #44 HelloDare
Don't forget the extra tax to buy the busboy some shoes.
You're right, I was just shocked that they wouldn't let me have any shoes because of my age ...
}:) [Ah, well, barefoot is fine with me.]
| 61 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:41:38am |
re: #54 SFGoth
See if you can spot the "woah" moment in this article:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
If the "whoa" moment is the same as mine, the only thing I can say about it is that a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer.
| 62 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:42:11am |
re: #46 muddywood
Got my plane tickets today.
Washington DC on September 11th.
Going to the September 12th rally and then to the Hold Their Feet To the Fire event on the 13th through the 15th.
And if some union goon sets a finger on me I'll F-ing knee cap him.
THIS SHOULD BE FUN! :)
Sure sounds like it, you put it that way.
}:) [After all, we ARE mobsters, right?]
| 63 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:43:21am |
re: #61 Soona'
If the "whoa" moment is the same as mine, the only thing I can say about it is that a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer.
EXACTLY!
| 64 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:44:47am |
re: #50 iceweasel
I'll catch back up with you if I need any other citations, thanks.
The part that got me was that they admitted they weren't going to look at what I had posted, but were willing to judge it and dismiss it out of turn without knowing what it was, and then to suggest that because I'm intelligent, I shouldn't be conservative, or visa versa.
}:) [Man, that's STILL rankling ... ]
| 66 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:45:25am |
re: #59 albusteve
anybody dig music on these over night threads?
It can be a useful accompaniment to the right kind of videos...
/ahem...
| 67 |
Jack Burton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:45:57am |
re: #63 iceweasel
Yeah but stupid lawyer tricks isn't really a "whoa" moment, it's S.O.P.
| 68 |
rain of lead Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:46:05am |
do you hate being asked for zip code or phone # when you shop?
foamy the squirrelVERY NSFW
(but funny as hell)
| 69 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:47:56am |
re: #64 Kulhwch
I'll catch back up with you if I need any other citations, thanks.
The part that got me was that they admitted they weren't going to look at what I had posted, but were willing to judge it and dismiss it out of turn without knowing what it was, and then to suggest that because I'm intelligent, I shouldn't be conservative, or visa versa.
}:) [Man, that's STILL rankling ... ]
Just wait until they get tapped to be involuntary volunteers.
| 70 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:49:00am |
re: #68 rain of lead
do you hate being asked for zip code or phone # when you shop?
foamy the squirrelVERY NSFW
(but funny as hell)
I just blurt out any number, same with a phone number...never ever give in to that bullshit
| 71 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:50:00am |
re: #70 albusteve
I just blurt out any number, same with a phone number...never ever give in to that bullshit
and yes it was funny, thanks for that
| 72 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:50:03am |
TBD if the Pakis follow this up, but good news none the less...
| 73 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:50:07am |
re: #67 ArchangelMichael
Yeah but stupid lawyer tricks isn't really a "whoa" moment, it's S.O.P.
The only "right" a lawyer recognizes is if the fee is "right".
| 74 |
SFGoth Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:51:29am |
re: #61 Soona'
If the "whoa" moment is the same as mine, the only thing I can say about it is that a lawyer is a lawyer is a lawyer.
Given that I'm a lawyer, I don't no what to make of that comment. I certainly wouldn't take a big case that I did not morally believe in.
| 75 |
rain of lead Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:51:42am |
re: #71 albusteve
and yes it was funny, thanks for that
yer welcome.
sometimes ya gotta step back and laugh
| 77 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:53:25am |
re: #74 SFGoth
Given that I'm a lawyer, I don't no what to make of that comment. I certainly wouldn't take a big case that I did not morally believe in.
Then you are the exception rather than the rule.
| 78 |
rain of lead Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:53:51am |
re: #76 Soona'
Billy Mays isn't dead yet.
"he's just mostly dead, and mostly dead is a little bit alive"
/PB
| 80 |
Kulhwch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:54:23am |
Syrah:
Socratic method, hmm. I'm glad I asked, I'm learning much.
Soona':
Yes, that will be worth waiting for. I told my 19yo son about it and he thinks it sucks, he's not doing anything unless he's paid for it, per his opinion. Boy is a Capitalist and a Republican already.
Everyone:
Okay, feel a lot better, am going to go feed the pets and then hit my bed running.
}:) [Thanks for the input and advice, all!]
| 81 |
SFGoth Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:56:10am |
re: #77 Soona'
Then you are the exception rather than the rule.
If you've followed my comments here in the last 6 months or so, you'd already know that.
| 82 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 12:56:27am |
| 83 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:01:10am |
| 84 |
SFGoth Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:01:24am |
What a slow night. Think I'll go shoot some heroin or something. I'm bored with pondering California's primary rights doctrine as it relates to defining the term "cause of action" in Code of Civil Procedure sec. 425.16, and thus whether prong 1 of the SLAPP statute should be resolved through "Lilienthal & Fowler" analysis or by "count".
| 85 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:03:34am |
re: #54 SFGoth
See if you can spot the "woah" moment in this article:
[Link: www.sfgate.com...]
Maybe we're all having different "whoa" moments here. This one was mine:
Boies and Olson, who represented Al Gore and George W. Bush respectively in the legal fight over the 2000 presidential elections, filed the lawsuit
I just thought it was cool, really. No offense meant to lawyers!
| 86 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:03:45am |
re: #84 SFGoth
What a slow night. Think I'll go shoot some heroin or something. I'm bored with pondering California's primary rights doctrine as it relates to defining the term "cause of action" in Code of Civil Procedure sec. 425.16, and thus whether prong 1 of the SLAPP statute should be resolved through "Lilienthal & Fowler" analysis or by "count".
I respect lawyers...they help reduce my sentence...as far as the rest the smack sounds like a better idea than posting here
| 87 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:03:47am |
re: #84 SFGoth
I could send you a fairly comprehensive map listing all of the railway lines owned by the state of South Dakota...
| 88 |
Wendya Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:04:10am |
re: #45 Kulhwch
Ah, now, I didn't know that about Betsy McCaughey.
The left went full court press on McCaughey after Clinton Care was euthanized. I have not read her original article but some of the points supposedly "debunked" by the left were more a matter of selective interpretation according to what the actual legislation said. The legislation is on online and can be found by searching "Clinton Health Security Act" What you believe will probably be colored by how badly you support or detest the legislation.
| 89 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:04:34am |
re: #82 albusteve
Maybe the unibomber look will do it for you for this band.
I kind of like the fact that 2 men can rock it. Maybe I'm alone...
| 90 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:06:41am |
re: #87 Fenway_Nation
I could send you a fairly comprehensive map listing all of the railway lines owned by the state of South Dakota...
cool!...so who did you like?, the indians or the cavalry?
| 92 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:08:40am |
re: #3 trendsurfer
I watched it. First time I've seen Maddow and the interviewee.
A fascinating exercise amounting to: a conspiracy theory.
Insurance companies are raising an army of "white middle-aged" racist conservatives whose brains have been broken by the election of a black president and the appointment of an Hispanic Woman to act as brown shirts in intimidating Americans; and Beck and Limbaugh are sending out coded assassination messages by likening Obama to Hitler because they know that out there some loony tunes will hear the message and commit violence against elected representatives and Beck and Fox will try to deny that they intended any harm but if it can be shown that these people watched Fox, it will not convince anybody, they will be responsible for the violence.
This is hysteria by any measure. And their accusations of incitement could be turned on them: they are setting up political adversaries as fascists ("brown shirts") and racists, willing to do violence at the behest of their hate-mongering leaders and by using the code words "organized" and "racist", they know that some loonies out there will be willing violently to stop this outrage against a black president and democrat elected officials.
There has been a subtle shift in the interpretation of Hitler and Nazism similes. When I heard Pelosi speak about Swastikas at the protests, I first thought she was trying to say that there were Nazi-party punks holding up their identity symbol, but since it was quite obvious that the Nazi references were used as a way of condemning Obamacare (the swastika had a line through it ), that could not be it. I then recalled a recent op-ed in the Guardian in which a really clever lefty opined that Bibi Netanyahu's use of the word "judenrein" in connection with settlement in the West Bank as evidence of the Nazification of Netanyahu's thought.
So now the left can use the Hitler/fascist metaphor against its enemies, but when its enemies use it against them, that is evidence that they are Nazis.
To protest against a perceive totalitarian threat is precisely a totalitarian threat.
Whatever one thinks about the Town Hall Meetings and the difference between grassroots and astroturf, this peculiar mental twist by the left bears watching. "Nazi" is not losing meaning, it is being redefined to mean conservative (and Israeli).
| 93 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:08:55am |
re: #89 eddiespaghetti
Maybe the unibomber look will do it for you for this band.
I kind of like the fact that 2 men can rock it. Maybe I'm alone...
just pulling your chain...but I think your right about the aloneness...people post some weird shit here tho...I'm like retro dood
| 94 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:09:34am |
re: #81 SFGoth
If you've followed my comments here in the last 6 months or so, you'd already know that.
Sorry. I know your nic, but I have never realized or have missed the references to you being a lawyer. I'm just a little jaded because of the fact that lawyers seem to be in control of almost every aspect of our lives.
| 95 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:10:24am |
re: #92 shortshrift
A.D.D. can't do it. Executive summary please.
| 96 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:10:36am |
| 98 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:13:15am |
re: #97 eddiespaghetti
How retro? Don't freak me out dood.
I've posted what I like...want more?
some old white guy blues
| 99 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:14:48am |
re: #96 albusteve
Looks like he'd be right at home in Sturgis...
| 100 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:16:17am |
re: #99 Fenway_Nation
Looks like he'd be right at home in Sturgis...
yeah...lota old timers there...it's still a cool gig if you want to look at bikes...too big tho
| 101 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:19:03am |
re: #95 eddiespaghetti
Did you see the video link at #3?
It is an excellent summary of how the left is whipping up hatred against the anti-Obamacare "mob". My post summarizes that video clip.
I merely pointed out, for the benefit of the few on this site who agree that they are a mob, that this view may itself be the result of rabble-rousing propaganda.
I added in some thoughts concerning the use of Nazi memes.
I am often late to threads, I fear, but it is only at this time that I have the quiet to think things out.
| 102 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:19:24am |
re: #98 albusteve
Blues, nice. So the Black Keys were not out of line with you. The Unibomber look appears to be timeless.
| 103 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:21:55am |
re: #101 shortshrift
I am pretty sure I agree with you. But as they say in my 'biz', faster, funnier dude.
| 104 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:23:13am |
re: #102 eddiespaghetti
Blues, nice. So the Black Keys were not out of line with you. The Unibomber look appears to be timeless.
I don't do gadget bands...I'm into the old dogs and the torchbearers afterword...blues, r/b, older rock and roll and roots music...I don't care for commercial jingos and pop heads...Peter Green was a virtuoso, deep into the blues...deep into the music
| 105 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:23:25am |
re: #84 SFGoth
What a slow night. Think I'll go shoot some heroin or something. I'm bored ...
Ok, so the Kana video didn't do it for you (sorry), maybe the following will help? More from the Vimeo HD time lapse category (as always, double click and open to full screen with HD on to get the best out of these):
| 106 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:23:25am |
re: #92 shortshrift
I haven't watched or listened to Beck for quite a while now, but Rush's nazi comparisons are more tongue in cheek than anything else. However, the zero administration and the people who support them are out to curtail the American way with Alinsky/Marxist/statist methods. Rush and Levin make no bones about that. The zero wants to be top czar.
| 108 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:31:13am |
don't fuck with the president...his past is forbidden
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
| 109 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:31:39am |
| 110 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:32:33am |
re: #107 Soona'
I'm hungry for fruitcup. How much longer?
these overnight threads used to be pretty lively, especially on Friday nights...what happened?...this thing is DOA
| 111 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:33:11am |
re: #106 Soona'
I haven't watched or listened to Beck for quite a while now, but Rush's nazi comparisons are more tongue in cheek than anything else.
I'd love to believe that, but it isn't true. Rush is quite serious and has been making these comparisons for a few days. Here is a partial transcript from just one rant:
Obama's got a health care logo that's right out of Adolf Hitler's playbook. Now, what are the similarities between the Democrat Party of today and the Nazi Party in Germany? Well, the Nazis were against big business -- they hated big business. And of course we all know that they were opposed to Jewish capitalism. They were insanely, irrationally against pollution. They were for two years mandatory voluntary service to Germany. They had a whole bunch of make-work projects to keep people working, one of which was the Autobahn. They were against cruelty and vivisection of animals, but in the radical sense of devaluing human life, they banned smoking. They were totally against that. They were for abortion and euthanasia of the undesirables, as we all know, and they were for cradle-to-grave nationalized healthcare.
This is why I have always bristled when I hear people claim conservativism gets close to Nazism. It is liberalism that's the closest you can get to Nazism and socialism. It's all bundled up under the socialist banner. There are far more similarities between Nancy Pelosi and Adolf Hitler than between these people showing up at town halls to protest a Hitler-like policy that's being heralded like a Hitler-like logo.
Oh, another similarity. Obama is asking citizens to rat each other out like Hitler did. Obama's the one that's got the snitch website right out of the White House, flag@whitehouse.com, asking citizens to report people who are saying weird, odd things. You know the White House responded, "No, no, no, we're not taking names here. We're not taking names. We're just taking people who are putting up faulty arguments and refuting them." Well, that's not the intention. Ted Kennedy's dad, by the way, Joe Kennedy, sympathetic to Hitler, sympathetic to the Nazis...[Obama] is sending out his brownshirts to head up opposition to genuine American citizens who want no part of what Barack Obama stands for and is trying to stuff down our throats...
Adolf Hitler, like Barack Obama, also ruled by dictate. His Cabinet only met once. One day. That was it. Hitler said he didn't need to meet with his Cabinet; he represented the will of the people. He was called the messiah. He said the people spoke through him.
| 112 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:33:14am |
re: #103 eddiespaghetti
Pretty sure is good enough. Ba-boom.
| 114 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:35:04am |
re: #109 eddiespaghetti
My fav band is obv Zep, so I'm trying to find new bands that represent what I like in the old skool. I don't think BK did a bad job, IMAO. But then again, an opinion is just that!
the first couple of Zep records were great, they got away from what they were best at and eventually hit the wall...made alot of money tho
| 115 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:38:41am |
re: #108 albusteve
don't fuck with the president...his past is forbidden
[Link: www.foxnews.com...]
I wonder if they would have actually found anything. I'm sure the zero has everything pretty well locked up by now. He had most of it under lock and key during the campaign.
| 116 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:39:05am |
re: #108 albusteve
Police officers abusing their position for political purposes? Don't you think they ought to be disciplined?
| 117 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:40:35am |
| 118 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:41:24am |
re: #116 freetoken
Police officers abusing their position for political purposes? Don't you think they ought to be disciplined?
who knows...I could care less, I thought it was funny...look up the president and get busted for it...crazy world eh?
| 119 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:42:27am |
re: #106 Soona'
Yes, but the left is trying to make out that it is coded incitement to violence.
They are not merely tut-tutting at the odious comparison (after all, they used it on Bush), they are trying to make it rise to the level of a criminal act, by pretending to be concerned and afraid of the violent repercussions. They point to Tiller's murder as an example of what all Rush and Beck secretly want.
| 120 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:42:51am |
re: #117 Fenway_Nation
Media
anti-matters link!/Drink up everyone!
Rush is the new Goerge Washington!...who gives a shit what Rush thinks
| 121 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:43:51am |
re: #116 freetoken
About as much as that State of Ohio employee should be for releasing personal details about Joe the plumber to the MSM...
| 122 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:45:27am |
re: #119 shortshrift
Yes, but the left is trying to make out that it is coded incitement to violence.
They are not merely tut-tutting at the odious comparison (after all, they used it on Bush), they are trying to make it rise to the level of a criminal act, by pretending to be concerned and afraid of the violent repercussions. They point to Tiller's murder as an example of what all Rush and Beck secretly want.
crackpots...Rush and Beck are media whores...getting caught up with what they say everyday is a dead end...who's worse?, their fans or their critics?
| 123 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:50:11am |
re: #119 shortshrift
They point to Tiller's murder as an example of what all Rush and Beck secretly want.
The White House, MSM, Dems and American Left were done pointing to Pvt William Long's murder long ago. I'm not even sure they acknowledged that in the first place...
| 124 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:52:16am |
re: #111 iceweasel
He has always argued against the old liberal premise that conservatives are nazis. As a conservative for many years, I've even been referred to as just that. Rush has been pointing out that the similarities to nazism reside more with liberals. He has never said that liberals are nazis, but he most definitely has said they're socialists using marxist tactics to forward their agenda. But my own personal take on the matter of nazism, no matter who I listen to on the radio is "if the shoe fits...".
| 125 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:53:22am |
re: #117 Fenway_Nation
Media
anti-matters link!/Drink up everyone!
Hey, facts don't get cooties on them because of where they're from...as a wise man here recently said.
Cheers, Fenway, I'll drink to that! :)
| 126 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 1:58:40am |
re: #125 iceweasel
Hey, facts don't get cooties on them because of where they're from...as a wise man here recently said.
Cheers, Fenway, I'll drink to that! :)
big woop...I think you overestimate Rush...he is far more valuable as a leftwing talking point than he is as spokesman for the right...everybody pays way too much attention to him vying for skin...but that's precisely what keeps him so popular...it's a circle jerk and you are part of it, as are his drooling fans
| 127 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:00:02am |
Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™
Fruitcup is on the buffet → → → → →
Help yourselves!
| 128 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:02:07am |
re: #126 albusteve
Drooling fans, pretty simplistic. Your first point had merit.
| 129 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:02:11am |
re: #122 albusteve
crackpots...Rush and Beck are media whores...getting caught up with what they say everyday is a dead end...who's worse?, their fans or their critics?
I disagree. Rush has been predicting this scenario for quite some time. I like Rush because he loves America and everything it stands for and will do whatever it takes to defend freedom, liberty, and the Constitution. He is the exact opposite of what I hear from the likes of the MSM, NPR. AP, etc. I have the same passion also. He is the broadcasted voice of my core beliefs.
| 130 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:02:21am |
re: #125 iceweasel
Sorry...? What was that? I was looking through the Media Matters archive trying to find any mention of the murder of Pvt. William Long in Little Rock earlier this year.
Not having much luck so far...guess MM doesn't consider it newsworthy when an unarmed GI is slain by a foaming-at-the-mouth batshit insane jihadi...in the middle of the United States.
| 131 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:03:06am |
re: #111 iceweasel
Hello, iceweasel.
This is the same topic we discussed the other night.
I replied - after a long delay - and Charles replied (disagreeing with me). I responded - to silence. Its at the bottom of the that thread.
When I read transcripts of Rush, I really am not hocked and shorrified. The use of the Hitler comparison has become rhetorical stock-in-trade. Rachel Maddow did her best to show how white-middle-aged conservative racists are being manipulated into brown-shirt mobs, but did not convince me.
I simply do not accept that there is a sufficiently "bad climate" of violent words that people are being brainwashed into violence. There is less violence in these protests than in the average soccer match. And giving offense to adversaries is street politics. Demonization or beatification of a politician is not cause to invoke fear of mobs. In Nazi Germany the government closed down dissent and launched a pervasive propaganda campaign to demonize the Jews. The Jews were outlawed and criminal mob acts against them legalized. If I were looking for echoes of that in the current protests, I would not find it in the insurance companies busing in dissenters.
| 132 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:04:56am |
re: #128 eddiespaghetti
Drooling fans, pretty simplistic. Your first point had merit.
he is simplistic, the whole premise that he is a champion for the GOP is simplistic...he's a money maker, that's his priority
| 133 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:05:19am |
Big deal. A guy gets a ripped up shirt, a couple of bloody scratches, and it's the kooks gone wild. People yell at some power that be and it's the 60's all over again. hardly.
| 134 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:05:40am |
re: #129 Soona'
I disagree. Rush has been predicting this scenario for quite some time. I like Rush because he loves America and everything it stands for and will do whatever it takes to defend freedom, liberty, and the Constitution. He is the exact opposite of what I hear from the likes of the MSM, NPR. AP, etc. I have the same passion also. He is the broadcasted voice of my core beliefs.
go for it...ain't America great?
| 135 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:07:40am |
re: #130 Fenway_Nation
Sorry...? What was that? I was looking through the Media Matters archive trying to find any mention of the murder of Pvt. William Long in Little Rock earlier this year.
Not having much luck so far...guess MM doesn't consider it newsworthy when an unarmed GI is slain by a foaming-at-the-mouth batshit insane jihadi...in the middle of the United States.
I hear ya...meanwhile everybody shits themselves over some theatrical Beck bullshit
| 136 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:09:06am |
re: #133 SasquatchOnSteroids
Big deal. A guy gets a ripped up shirt, a couple of bloody scratches, and it's the kooks gone wild. People yell at some power that be and it's the 60's all over again. hardly.
agreed...a lot of phony hysteria
| 137 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:11:19am |
re: #131 shortshrift
Hi shortshrift.
Was that at the other Overnight Thread? I'll go check it out and your responses and then answer you more fully.
re: #130 Fenway_Nation
Sorry...? What was that? I was looking through the Media Matters archive trying to find any mention of the murder of Pvt. William Long in Little Rock earlier this year..
Media Matters exists to cover conservative spin and conservative misinformation. Had there been any about Pvt, Long, they would have covered that.
They're a meta-news site, not a news aggregator. Saying they didn't cover Long is irrelevant.
| 138 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:13:05am |
re: #132 albusteve
Fans of him drool? "He is simplistic". I can make a fancy anectdote either way, just sayin. "Is he a money maker"? That can be supported, clearly.
Who made the straw man of "he is a champion of the GOP". I am sure somebody did, just askin who..
| 139 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:14:13am |
re: #137 iceweasel
It was several days ago. I think it was the sale of Weekly Standard thread, but I wouldn't swear to it. Please don't trouble yourself, though. I think you are comfortable here. Plenty of opportunity to disagree here and elsewhere!
| 140 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:14:47am |
re: #137 iceweasel
The fact that there wasn't so much as a peep from them about the Little Rock recruiting center shooting speaks VOLUMES about Media Matters to me...
| 141 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:14:48am |
I'm a washing machine. My name is Maytag.
*burp
| 142 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:16:18am |
re: #138 eddiespaghetti
Fans of him drool? "He is simplistic". I can make a fancy anectdote either way, just sayin. "Is he a money maker"? That can be supported, clearly.
Who made the straw man of "he is a champion of the GOP". I am sure somebody did, just askin who..
#129
| 143 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:17:19am |
re: #138 eddiespaghetti
Who made the straw man of "he is a champion of the GOP". I am sure somebody did, just askin who..
I thought he and Powell took turns
/
| 144 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:17:32am |
re: #132 albusteve
he is simplistic, the whole premise that he is a champion for the GOP is simplistic...he's a money maker, that's his priority
You don't listen to him, do you? Because if you did, you'd know that he derides the Repub. party leaders as much as the democrats. And, yes, he is making a lot of money. Are you bitter about that? He puts himself up as a shining example of how the free market works, if one is willing to work hard enough. Sad to say, most people just want to sit around and bitch about individuals who become skilled and successful at something they've dedicated their lives in doing.
| 145 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:17:37am |
re: #136 albusteve
so what's next. Frisk 'em down and take away all of their blue pills and Medalerts ?
| 146 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:18:01am |
| 148 |
Syrah Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:18:40am |
re: #127 littleoldlady
Good morning, afternoon, evening *everyone*!™
Fruitcup is on the buffet → → → → →
Help yourselves!
Thanks for the fruit cup.
Feasted and gorged.
Now sated and sleepy.
Goodnight all.
| 149 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:19:57am |
re: #139 shortshrift
It was several days ago. I think it was the sale of Weekly Standard thread, but I wouldn't swear to it. Please don't trouble yourself, though. I think you are comfortable here. Plenty of opportunity to disagree here and elsewhere!
Oh no, I'd love to see it, really-- I love this particular subject. I don't agree with you, as it happens, but that doesn't mean I don't find your posts on this really thoughtful and articulate. Give me a few minutes and I'll write something more substantial than this in reply. :)
I'll look for that WS thread too, cheers.
| 150 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:20:06am |
Syrah! :-)
Fruit'll do that to you sometimes.
| 151 |
eddiespaghetti Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:21:14am |
re: #146 albusteve
Well, I know who I'd take in that match-up (CP vs. RL)
| 152 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:21:46am |
re: #144 Soona'
You don't listen to him, do you? Because if you did, you'd know that he derides the Repub. party leaders as much as the democrats. And, yes, he is making a lot of money. Are you bitter about that? He puts himself up as a shining example of how the free market works, if one is willing to work hard enough. Sad to say, most people just want to sit around and bitch about individuals who become skilled and successful at something they've dedicated their lives in doing.
I pay little attention to the MSM...just enough to remind myself how repulsive and destructive the lot of them are...people that watch that shit are helping turn American political dialog into a laughingstock soap opera...do what you want, it's none of my business
| 154 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:24:01am |
Back to bed and the half empty bottle.
One foot on floor.
| 155 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:25:16am |
re: #145 SasquatchOnSteroids
so what's next. Frisk 'em down and take away all of their blue pills and Medalerts ?
there are documents to sign now...I will not disrupt the proceedings!...hahaha!...gimme a break
| 156 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:27:07am |
re: #155 albusteve
there are documents to sign now...I will not disrupt the proceedings!...hahaha!...gimme a break
I would sign it as long as the congresscritter signed one that said they wern't gonna lie and distort the facts. Not. Gonna. Happen.
| 157 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:28:39am |
Fenway! :-)
All your drinks are belong to me...
| 158 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:31:51am |
Florida Gubner Charlie Crist said he will not appoint himself to Mel Martinez vacant senate seat. This will be intresting since Crist will be running for said seat next year. I smell a backroom deal. How long must one be a senator to get the retirement perks? Just wondering.
| 159 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:33:26am |
re: #155 albusteve
Wonder how many union thugs real, 100% authentic grassroots supporters of 0bamacare are going to be in the parking lots of these various town hall meetings taking down liscence plate numbers...
| 160 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:33:38am |
re: #138 eddiespaghetti
The left's movers and shakers are creating straw leaders of Beck and Rush because they want to shut them up, or neutralize them. They've tried making them into laughing stocks, now they are making them into criminal inciters. If there is enough public outrage, perhaps they will lose their jobs. Next step a petition, signed by concerned journalists. "We, the undersigned Pulitzer Prize-winning journalists and reporters, wish to express in the strongest terms our deep concern at the dangerous and unethical partisanship being broadcast by certain conservative personalities . It is only a matter of time before an act of extreme violence will be perpetrated by the fanatical adherents of these personalities..." Signed :Dan Rather etc.
Remember the concerned intellectuals who wrote a letter predicting that Israel would use anti-terrorist operations as a cover for ethnic-cleansing?
It is preemptive outrage.
| 161 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:34:11am |
Political Entertainment...shocksters and mood hustlers on TV and radio...it's a business...rabble rousers that cry on stage and throw the Nazi verbage around for money...you want honest political insight, stick with VDH and Charlie K...neither of which could carry Becks man purse full of meter change
| 162 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:35:29am |
re: #158 Cannadian Club Akbar
I missed the press conference yesterday. Did he say why he was quitting?
| 163 |
albusteve Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:35:36am |
re: #159 Fenway_Nation
Wonder how many
union thugsreal, 100% authentic grassroots supporters of 0bamacare are going to be in the parking lots of these various town hall meetings taking down liscence plate numbers...
hunting down extremists like me
| 164 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:36:00am |
re: #160 shortshrift
Clinton tried to pin the OKC bombing on hate speech from Rush.
| 165 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:37:03am |
re: #161 albusteve
man purse full of meter change
I'm stealin' that shit.
I knocked over the bottle. might as well stay up.
| 166 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:37:45am |
re: #162 littleoldlady
I missed the press conference yesterday. Did he say why he was quitting?
I think he his having a presser at 3pm today. I think I know why he is leaving. He is a family man and DC is a cesspool.
| 167 |
shortshrift Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:39:08am |
re: #149 iceweasel
Would love to read your more substantial reply, but I am suddenly tuckered out. If you post one, I'll look for it tomorrow.
| 169 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:46:00am |
| 170 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:46:06am |
re: #167 shortshrift
Would love to read your more substantial reply, but I am suddenly tuckered out. If you post one, I'll look for it tomorrow.
No problem. Let's take this up tomorrow or the next overnight we're both on-- I've got a lot going on at the moment and suddenly struggling with a migraine as well. Sleep well!
| 171 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:46:50am |
Real Hooters.
[Link: www.hooterscalendar.com...]
| 172 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:48:29am |
re: #169 littleoldlady
That's it?!
/he didn't know that before he ran for office?
Just a guess. Many think they can go to DC and actually do what is right, with all good intentions.
| 173 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:48:48am |
re: #152 albusteve
I pay little attention to the MSM...just enough to remind myself how repulsive and destructive the lot of them are...people that watch that shit are helping turn American political dialog into a laughingstock soap opera...do what you want, it's none of my business
American political discourse has been a soap opera since the beginning of this nation. That's why I love freedom of speech. And I'd once again put myself in harms way to defend your expressions of your opinion. But in the last few decades, I've seen an ever increasing encroachment of policies to limit our speaking freely. The PC movement is one of the biggest defilers. McCain/Feingold is another, not to mention the personal attacks on people (i.e. Joe the Plumber, the tea party movement, and the people questioning zerocare) who dare disagree with Dear Leader or the liberal congressional leadership.
| 174 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:49:57am |
re: #166 Cannadian Club Akbar
I thought he was quitting so he could spend more time...erm...'hiking the Appalachain Trail'...
| 176 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:54:14am |
re: #175 littleoldlady
I must have misread. My bad.
| 177 |
Flavia Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:56:08am |
re: #13 Kulhwch
I recently had a similar situation.
A friend of mine had said stupid things about how "Israel has to share" in my hearing. And, so, naturally, I told him in no uncertain terms how stupid his theory/observation was (without actually using the word "stupid", because were supposed to be friends, right?). So, being a real genius, he actually posted the same thing, but in even dumber detail, on his LJ. He figured that since he put it behind a cut that said "Some of you are going to be offended", that this would make it ok, and that I would somehow figure out what the hell he meant & stay away.
But it just got dumber. Because I wasn't offended by his being stupid. I was offended by his even dumber friends calling me a Nazi (along other things) & him insisting that it was the same as my telling them how wrong they were (& pointing out where they outright lied). Which mentality showed me more than anything else could how he managed to view the Israeli situation so bass ackwardly.
The only bright spots were when I got to say "You are free to refute me" - which got me only silence in return (heh, heh!), and when his new "girlfriend" tried to lecture me about how "everyone is entitled to their own opinion". Like that was going to make me say "Gee, I guess all these wrong things are now right!" As you can imagine, it didn't. I simply told her that "Everyone is, indeed, entitled his own opinion. But no one is entitled to his own facts." There was no answer to that, either.
I guess what my rant is trying to say is that not only are you not alone, but you don;t need "friends" like that.
| 178 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 2:58:48am |
It works. What's so controversial about that ?
Never mind.
| 179 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:00:29am |
re: #178 SasquatchOnSteroids
It works. What's so controversial about that ?
Never mind.
Didn't Egypt build a wall on it's border to keep out the Palis? Me thinks yes.
| 180 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:01:45am |
re: #171 Cannadian Club Akbar
Real Hooters.
[Link: www.hooterscalendar.com...]
Place always smelled like a French whorehouse with wings to me.
Too much damn perfume.
| 181 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:02:36am |
re: #179 Cannadian Club Akbar
Didn't Egypt build a wall on it's border to keep out the Palis? Me thinks yes.
Tunnel rats.
| 182 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:04:13am |
re: #181 SasquatchOnSteroids
Tunnel rats.
We give them money? Look at their spending spree.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
| 183 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:04:21am |
re: #180 SasquatchOnSteroids
Place always smelled like a French whorehouse with wings to me.
Too much damn perfume.
So they use a lot of perfume in French whorehouses?
| 184 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:04:54am |
| 185 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:06:54am |
| 186 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:08:04am |
re: #182 Cannadian Club Akbar
We give them money? Look at their spending spree.
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Fuckers shouldn't get a dime. Cash for Clunkers bs.
| 187 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:09:06am |
re: #185 Cannadian Club Akbar
If I find a French whorehouse that serves wings, I am so there.
/
D'ellatrends. 42nd street.
/I made that up.
| 188 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:09:10am |
re: #174 Fenway_Nation
I thought he was quitting so he could spend more time...erm...'hiking the Appalachain Trail'...
Speaking of which, Jenny Sanford and the kids moved out of the governor's mansion yesterday.
(apologies if this has already been posted)
| 189 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:10:43am |
re: #188 iceweasel
Mark will be moving out next year, I'm sure.
| 190 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:11:36am |
re: #184 SasquatchOnSteroids
Yep.
;) A long time ago I had a girlfriend who danced at a strip club where I lived. She had to go in one time when it was closed to pick up something that she forgot and when we walked in...the smell was...not good.
| 191 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:14:05am |
re: #190 Soona'
Old beer/cheap perfume/vomit/skank sweat? What's not to love?
| 192 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:14:35am |
re: #190 Soona'
Was there sawdust and peanut shells all over the floor?
| 193 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:14:37am |
re: #191 Cannadian Club Akbar
Didn't mean to imply anything, sorry.
| 194 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:14:51am |
re: #190 Soona'
;) A long time ago I had a girlfriend who danced at a strip club where I lived. She had to go in one time when it was closed to pick up something that she forgot and when we walked in...the smell was...not good.
What can I say ? Sweaty ass workin' for dollars stinks.
Like the foot smell at Grandpops house.
What the hell, crack a window, man.
| 195 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:15:07am |
| 196 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:16:33am |
re: #194 SasquatchOnSteroids
What can I say ? Sweaty ass workin' for dollars stinks.
Like the foot smell at Grandpops house.
What the hell, crack a window, man.
No open window could overcome some of those smells.
| 197 |
littleoldlady Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:18:28am |
This thread stinks!
Good day, ALL!7trade;
;-)
| 199 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:20:27am |
re: #196 Soona'
No open window could overcome some of those smells.
True that. Last time I visited, I put a fan in his window trying to get that mess out of there. Had to move a pile of newspapers 3 feet tall so I could sit on his plastic covered sofa and talk to him. Wouldn't let us help him clear some of that junk out. Hey, it was his house, his rules. Knock yerself out.
| 200 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:21:03am |
| 201 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:22:27am |
re: #197 littleoldlady
This thread stinks!
Good day, ALL!7trade;
;-)
Sorry about that. A bit gassy this morning.
/
| 202 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:24:06am |
| 203 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:25:06am |
re: #197 littleoldlady
Good tradmarked day to you as well, LoL...
| 204 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:25:17am |
| 205 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:27:57am |
re: #204 SasquatchOnSteroids
Bacon and beer, horrible.
I had a friend that would go to the bar and eat the red hard boiled eggs and drink beer, then go home and give his GF the "dutch oven" treatment.
| 206 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:30:13am |
re: #205 Cannadian Club Akbar
I had a friend that would go to the bar and eat the red hard boiled eggs and drink beer, then go home and give his GF the "dutch oven" treatment.
Must not have liked her a whole lot. That's just mean. heh.
| 207 |
TheMatrix31 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:35:38am |
Hey guys...flights in a couple hours...gonna have to do my posting from my phone mostly. You guys gotta keep tabs on all the interesting links and stuff!
| 208 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:35:56am |
re: #206 SasquatchOnSteroids
Must not have liked her a whole lot. That's just mean. heh.
She must have been a strong woman to have enough strength afterward to walk away.
| 209 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:36:53am |
This should work. Or not.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
| 210 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:38:10am |
re: #207 TheMatrix31
Hey guys...flights in a couple hours...gonna have to do my posting from my phone mostly. You guys gotta keep tabs on all the interesting links and stuff!
So, we do the leg work while you eat BBQ? I think not.
/
| 211 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:39:55am |
re: #209 Cannadian Club Akbar
This should work. Or not.
[Link: www.telegraph.co.uk...]
These people should be shut away in mental wards.
| 212 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:42:46am |
re: #207 TheMatrix31
Hey guys...flights in a couple hours...gonna have to do my posting from my phone mostly. You guys gotta keep tabs on all the interesting links and stuff!
Where are you flying to.
| 213 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:46:22am |
| 214 |
Soona' Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:50:51am |
My furry children are lined up on the floor looking at me. It must be time for bed. G'nite all.
| 215 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:50:54am |
Let this be a lesson. This is why I don't go to clubs.
[Link: www.myfoxny.com...]
| 216 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 3:53:24am |
re: #215 Cannadian Club Akbar
Let this be a lesson. This is why I don't go to clubs.
[Link: www.myfoxny.com...]
That's gonna leave a mark.
| 217 |
Fenway_Nation Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:02:32am |
G'nite lizards! Have a good road-trip, Matrix...
| 218 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:07:16am |
| 219 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:14:53am |
re: #218 SasquatchOnSteroids
I'm more impressed with the meth labs in Florida that go BOOM. Just sayin'.
| 220 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:19:48am |
re: #219 Cannadian Club Akbar
I'm more impressed with the meth labs in Florida that go BOOM. Just sayin'.
I didn't have one of those vids. Had to go with what I can.
| 221 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:24:21am |
There's no doubt we need to 'tweak' our healthcare system. The solution is NOT to have the government end up providing 100% coverage for ANY group of people.
I think the Republican Party (and conservatives) should focus on helping out those who are facing catastrophic circumstances. Cancer. ALS. A serious accident. The situations that DO break people financially because of long term, major expenses.
We need to work to expand Medical Savings Accounts, where a high deductible policy is available, and unused money rolls over to the next year.
It's probably too late, but we need to work to change the mentality of people who think that health insurance, unlike car or homeowners insurance, should pay for EVERYTHING, instead of being reserved for more serious situations.
And we need to reform our tort laws, where malpractice IS punished, but not to the insane level it is. We've got to stop encouraging these lawyers who chase lawyers, and engage in stunts like 'channeling' the spirit of a child born with birth defects in order to win settlements (not to mention any names here, of course!).
The idea that we need Uncle Sam to take over yet another chunk of the American economy, with parts of the law which seem to outlaw new private insurance after a certain date, which put unelected bureaucrats in charge of determining what treatments are/aren't available, scares the cr-p out of me.
Uncle Barack's ‘Quality, Affordable Health Coverage for All Americans’ bill. Hmmm. QAHCAA. Would that be pronounced 'CACA’?
| 222 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:25:26am |
re: #220 SasquatchOnSteroids
I didn't have one of those vids. Had to go with what I can.
| 223 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:28:15am |
re: #221 right_wing2
Zero knows what is best for us. He said so. Right after he said unemployment would only go to 8%.
/
| 224 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:29:07am |
re: #205 Cannadian Club Akbar
I had a friend that would go to the bar and eat the red hard boiled eggs and drink beer, then go home and give his GF the "dutch oven" treatment.
What's a red hard boiled egg, and why are they are bars?
Sadly, I believe I am familiar with the "dutch oven" treatment. :(
| 225 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:29:41am |
| 226 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:30:04am |
re: #223 Cannadian Club Akbar
I wonder how long it'll be before one of the Obamessiah's disciples reports me?
| 227 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:31:20am |
re: #224 iceweasel
What's a red hard boiled egg, and why are they are bars?
Sadly, I believe I am familiar with the "dutch oven" treatment. :(
They are hard boiled eggs that sit in a liquid to make them pickled and spicy. The liquid is red. Actually, really good.
| 228 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:32:14am |
re: #226 right_wing2
I wonder how long it'll be before one of the Obamessiah's disciples reports me?
I just did. You will be getting a visit from ACORN soon.
/
| 229 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:34:01am |
re: #228 Cannadian Club Akbar
Thank you! I'll be on the lookout for a nut. Probably the same nut that'll confirm my answers on the census. And I'll tell 'em exactly where they can stick the census AND Obama's health care reform.
| 230 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:37:50am |
re: #227 Cannadian Club Akbar
They are hard boiled eggs that sit in a liquid to make them pickled and spicy. The liquid is red. Actually, really good.
Oh, like pickled eggs!
I've never had them, myself. I do kind of love pickled onions, though I rarely eat them.
I'm trying to imagine someone drinking a lot of beer and eating the eggs, though. I think that might be grounds for justifiable homicide.
| 231 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:41:44am |
re: #20 zombie
Everybody saw this, right? The perfect analogy. The perfect post.
| 232 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:41:46am |
re: #230 iceweasel
Let me premise this by saying, I hate beets. But, soak hard boiled eggs that have been peeled in pickled beet juice for about 2 weeks. They get a nice purple color and look great on a salad. And yummy.
| 233 |
summergurl Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:44:27am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Just read it - I thought it was genius
| 234 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:45:34am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I have had arguments with people about this. They say doctors make to much. I tell them to do 10 years of school and 2 years residency, hire 8 people for an office for private practice and pay 140K for malpractice insurance. They shut up, usually.
| 235 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:46:31am |
re: #227 Cannadian Club Akbar
There's a very funny scene in "Johnny Dangerously" that includes pickled eggs that've gone bad in a bar.
| 236 |
SasquatchOnSteroids Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:47:24am |
Not eating anything that's been soaked in beet juice.
That just sounds bad.
I'm out. L8r
| 237 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:47:28am |
| 238 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:48:10am |
re: #235 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
There's a very funny scene in "Johnny Dangerously" that includes pickled eggs that've gone bad in a bar.
Did the eggs rob the place? I had a head of cabbage go bad. Stole my car.
/
| 239 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:50:01am |
re: #231 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Everybody saw this, right? The perfect analogy. The perfect post.
Hey FBV! How are you?
Seen it; don't agree. Here's why:
When I go to a restaurant by myself, I order something inexpensive or reasonable and pay for it myself. But what really cheeses me off is when i go to a restaurant with a bunch or friends of co-workers and we all agree to split the bill, then everybody else proceeds to order margaritas and lobster paté while I order a small salad and a lemonade. At the end I have to fork over $35 to co-pay for everyone else's extravagance.
Awful analogy.
1) If you agreed in advance to split the bill, why are you complaining about your friends' choices?
2) I've been to a load of dinners where 'everyone is supposed to pay for themselves'. Guess what happens-- people throw in what they think they owe or want to pretend they owe, and me and a couple of other good-hearted people wind up kicking in --in some cases double what we actually owe--- because half the people want to stiff the waitress on her tip-- or they lie about what they ordered.
3) Ordering margaritas with your lobster pate is an abomination for many reasons, not least because the tequila and salt will ruin your palate for the pate.
///liberal elite here.
| 240 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:52:11am |
re: #238 Cannadian Club Akbar
Every time the bartender looks away, the (dumb) hood at the bar steals one. The hood eats several. Bartender sees a customer about to take one, says, "Oh, don't eat those, they went bad days ago!"
I think that's from Johnny Dangerously. Pretty stupid movie. But had some fun moments.
| 241 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:55:04am |
re: #240 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I like the scene in "Up in Smoke" when Chong hands Cheech a bunch of micro dot and Cheech eats them. Then Chong says, "don't eat them." Then he tells Cheech he just ate the biggest hit of acid he had ever seen. Classic.
| 242 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 4:56:00am |
re: #239 iceweasel
1. Operative word, "Agree to in advance". I don't "agree to in advance". I am going to be "forced".
2. Some will be forced to pay a lot more than "double" of what they owe.
3. What the hell is "lobster pate". Lobsters have a liver?
Love ya, baby, but I disagree with you with the white hot heat of a thousand suns.
| 243 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:00:17am |
re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
1. Operative word, "Agree to in advance". I don't "agree to in advance". I am going to be "forced".
2. Some will be forced to pay a lot more than "double" of what they owe.
3. What the hell is "lobster pate". Lobsters have a liver?Love ya, baby, but I disagree with you with the white hot heat of a thousand suns.
3. Actually, I did almost post about how lobster pate is an oxymoron. Then I thought that would be obnoxious of me. I'm glad you mentioned it. I guess what's meant is like a lobster mousse.
In re 2 & 1: it depends.
I love you too, with the flamy white hot heat of a thousand suns, and only more when we disagree. :)
| 244 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:00:25am |
re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
3. What the hell is "lobster pate". Lobsters have a liver?
Yup. It's called "tomalley"; at least, it does the same thing your liver does, plus some of what your pancreas does. It's sort of a green paste.
Very tasty.
| 245 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:02:21am |
re: #244 SixDegrees
Yup. It's called "tomalley"; at least, it does the same thing your liver does, plus some of what your pancreas does. It's sort of a green paste.
Very tasty.
True! but "lobster pate" has nothing to do with that or pate; it's lobster meat whizzed round in a blender with cream and stuff (as I recall) and chilled.
| 246 |
summergurl Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:04:33am |
re: #242 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
So what do you think about morbidly obese people paying more for health insurance?
Just asking
| 247 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:05:00am |
Pate? Can't I just eat my lobster tail?
| 248 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:06:06am |
re: #245 iceweasel
True! but "lobster pate" has nothing to do with that or pate; it's lobster meat whizzed round in a blender with cream and stuff (as I recall) and chilled.
There really is something called lobster pate that really is made from tomalley, sometimes with lobster roe added. It's extremely rich.
And very expensive. Lobster livers aren't very big. It's often mixed, as you describe, with some of the meat to bulk it out, but it's the underlying tomalley that lends it most of it's flavor.
It wouldn't surprise me if the term has been extended to include plain old pureed lobster meat. But it isn't technically correct.
| 249 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:10:25am |
re: #248 SixDegrees
Wow, cool. Thanks!
I've never had tomalley. Or lobster roe, for that matter. But this information only reinforces my claim that eating it while drinking margaritas would be an abomination. The tequila and everything else in a margarita just strips everything else out of your taste buds.
But I'm kind of like CCA here. Give me the lobster tail and I'm happy.
| 250 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:10:29am |
re: #246 summergurl
So what do you think about morbidly obese people paying more for health insurance?
Just asking
If we charged more for people with reckless behavior, many would be broke. Many different lifestyles could be considered reckless.
| 251 |
apachegunner Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:11:11am |
re: #246 summergurl
So what do you think about morbidly obese people paying more for health insurance?
Just asking
FBV is really a skinny guy
| 252 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:11:30am |
re: #246 summergurl
Want my honest opinion? I'm not sure how I feel about it.
Morbidly obese people (in my experience) are the least likely to be able to afford higher premiums...
It makes sense that they should pay more, smokers should pay more, "X-games" contestants should pay more. It also makes sense that gays that have anonymous sex should pay more, straights that have anonymous sex should pay more...
Unfortunately, the morbidly obese person is the only one listed above who can't lie about it.
Which is why I can't decide.
| 253 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:12:52am |
| 254 |
apachegunner Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:15:01am |
| 255 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:16:06am |
Good morning Lizards ... 60 degrees in suburban Hartford, CT this AM. This piece from Amir Taheri on Obama's abandonment of the good fight in Iraq made my blood boil ...
[Link: www.nypost.com...]
Based on what he is doing (and not doing) in Iraq, it appears Obama hates the war in Iraq so much that he will piss away the gains made by our brave soldiers, the Bush administration, and the Iraqi people. And the Iraqis who bought into our promises of democracy and a better life will NEVER forgive us for this.
| 256 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:16:19am |
re: #250 Cannadian Club Akbar
If we charged more for people with reckless behavior, many would be broke. Many different lifestyles could be considered reckless.
And isn't it the opposite of a true conservative principle to make judgements about what personal choices are 'reckless'? Or about lifestyles?
I often think that progressives and true conservatives have a lot of common ground and overlap that the current ideological divide obscures. This is one of them. Both share a distaste for government intrusion into personal affairs. I think of this as a purely American principle, not a partisan one.
On the left it might manifest as a dislike of laws about abortion, on the right as a dislike about laws involving gun control, but there is a basic common principle here.
| 257 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:17:06am |
re: #254 apachegunner
(TIM ALLEN SOUND) Whaaa?
| 259 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:19:04am |
| 261 |
VioletTiger Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:26:39am |
re: #260 SixDegrees
Ewww
Can you just see the names for this stuff? Cross chicken and pork and get ---chorck.
| 262 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:27:58am |
iranian "justice" at work once again ...
[Link: www.nytimes.com...]
Obama's reluctance to "meddle" in iran is a disgrace. Not a single peep out of him with regard to these show trials and probable convictions on trumped up charges. Shameful.
| 263 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:28:03am |
re: #260 SixDegrees
They did an episode of "Better Off Ted" (IMO, a fine, funny, hip, new, different tv show) where they grew a "meat blob" in the lab.
Prepared it and served it to a "Human Guinea Pig" to check it's taste.
He tasted it, chewed... they asked him, "What does it taste like?"
He said, "Pure despair."
They were careful not to name it.
| 264 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:28:36am |
re: #261 VioletTiger
Ewww
Can you just see the names for this stuff? Cross chicken and pork and get ---chorck.
But, chicken and cow could be "People Chow"
| 265 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:28:39am |
re: #256 iceweasel
The older I get, the more I want the gubment out of my life. I have had to use gubment services once in about 15 years and that was when some jackass was drunk and in my pole barn raising hell at 4 AM. I could have taken care of it, but then I would have been in trouble.
And yes, many different political affiliations agree on things, but not all things, hence the split.
| 266 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:29:13am |
re: #256 iceweasel
And isn't it the opposite of a true conservative principle to make judgements about what personal choices are 'reckless'? Or about lifestyles?
For me, if the government is going to handle something I want it to be run as efficiently as possible even if that includes a certain level of draconian regulation. I'm not a 'true conservative' though if there is such a thing. I'd prefer the government stay out of things, but if they refuse they need not do things half-assed.
If there isn't anything wrong with taxing the people to pay for the healthcare of the entire populace, and if there isn't anything wrong with forcing people who have more to give a larger share, there likewise isn't anything with forcing people who use more to pay a larger share as well.
To FBV, while we can't realistically have people pay more for things like their sexual behavior or a risky sporting hobbies, we can have them pay more if they are habitually contracting STDs that need treatment or breaking bones, and we can by default tax people that fall into demographics that are likely to be prone to that behavior as well.
Your car insurance goes up if you prove yourself likely to get in accidents, with the occasional one being forgiven depending on your plan. It goes down as you go from youth to middle age. Healthcare can workout similar demographic information to determine who pays what based on use and likely use of the service.
| 267 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:29:29am |
re: #263 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
They did an episode of "Better Off Ted" (IMO, a fine, funny, hip, new, different tv show) where they grew a "meat blob" in the lab.
Prepared it and served it to a "Human Guinea Pig" to check it's taste.
He tasted it, chewed... they asked him, "What does it taste like?"
He said, "Pure despair."They were careful not to name it.
LOL!
| 268 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:30:30am |
| 269 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:32:36am |
re: #261 VioletTiger
Ewww
Can you just see the names for this stuff? Cross chicken and pork and get ---chorck.
We already have turducken.
How would that be different?
| 270 |
Erik The Red Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:33:20am |
Good Morning Lizards. It's The Weekend Baby. :)
| 271 |
lawhawk Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:34:11am |
No mention of Goldfinger is complete without the mention of none other than Pussy Galore. (I must be dreaming).
| 272 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:34:14am |
re: #268 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I've only seen one episode, where the new fully automated office building can't recognize black people. The issue is raised with corporate so they have segregated facilities installed. I about fell out of my chair when I saw the side by side water fountains with a 'For Blacks' sign over one. I've worked at a big company that had overseas owners and I could totally imagine someone recommending that as a solution.
| 273 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:37:02am |
re: #266 Scion9
If it were that simple. Some bureaucrat will say that the healthier person has a better job, has a more consistent income and better able to afford to help pay for the poor man who got the AIDS who contracted it in his monogamous relationship with his lover who strayed that one time...
The X gamer who "fell down the steps" and broke his neck, was very unfortunate.
ad infinitum..
| 274 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:37:29am |
re: #269 reine.de.tout
Andouille Cornbread stuffing. Hmm. I already male cornbread stuffing. This should be easy.
| 275 |
apachegunner Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:40:37am |
re: #270 Erik The Red
Good Morning Lizards. It's The Weekend Baby. :)
hey eric, family finally home?
| 276 |
VioletTiger Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:40:50am |
re: #269 reine.de.tout
We already have turducken.
How would that be different?
Well, some lab rat would be making it in the lab.
Hopefully, no real rats would be involved.
| 277 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:40:55am |
re: #274 Cannadian Club Akbar
make, not male. PIMF.
| 278 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:40:55am |
re: #270 Erik The Red
Good Morning Lizards. It's The Weekend Baby. :)
Hey Erik ... Lizard Nation appears to be channeling the Food Network this morning. And they didn't even bring Giada DiLaurentis along for some eye candy.
| 279 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:41:00am |
re: #266 Scion9
. . .
Your car insurance goes up if you prove yourself likely to get in accidents, with the occasional one being forgiven depending on your plan. It goes down as you go from youth to middle age. Healthcare can workout similar demographic information to determine who pays what based on use and likely use of the service.
eek.
The problem with that . . . as people age, they will use greater healthcare resources. For a person who has been retired for a few years, it could well use up their entire monthly income to pay a premium based on their healthcare usage. I would much prefer, while I'm younger, to subsidize usage by older folks by paying the same premium they pay, with the assurance that when I'm older the same rates will apply even though I am using more healthcare resources.
but here we see - you've illustrated that the issue isn't healthcare. The issue is health insurance (whether private or gov't issued insurance).
| 281 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:43:50am |
re: #278 _RememberTonyC
Hey Erik ... Lizard Nation appears to be channeling the Food Network this morning. And they didn't even bring Giada DiLaurentis along for some eye candy.
Giada is a Goddess. Other than that, I hate the food network. Everyone thinks they are a chef because the watch it.
| 282 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:44:23am |
re: #252 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Oh, and I can see the definition of "Morbidly Obese" changing just like the definition of "Over $250,000.00" seems to be changing.
| 283 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:44:33am |
re: #279 reine.de.tout
Exactly, our health care is already the best in the world.
[Link: townhall.com...]
| 284 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:45:07am |
re: #281 Cannadian Club Akbar
Giada is a Goddess. Other than that, I hate the food network. Everyone thinks they are a chef because the watch it.
all the food talk is boring to me, but ... heeere's Giada!
[Link: www.giadadelaurentiis.com...]
| 285 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:45:24am |
Good morning everyone, sorry about that, just jumped in with nary a greeting
| 286 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:45:42am |
re: #281 Cannadian Club Akbar
they, not the. PIMF. Jeez.
| 288 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:46:26am |
re: #285 bbuddha
Good morning everyone, sorry about that, just jumped in with nary a greeting
's OK. I do it all the time.
| 289 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:46:29am |
re: #269 reine.de.tout
We already have turducken.
How would that be different?
Turducken is...interesting. And the practice of stuffing animals inside other animals inside yet other animals has a long history, with recipes going back at least to the Middle Ages.
The problem is that the inner birds - the duck and chicken - never get their skins crisped. They get steamed. And frankly, steamed, rubbery poulty skin just isn't all that appealing.
Also, the outer bird tends to dry out; the cooking time for a solid ball of meat is a lot longer than it is for a basically hollow turkey.
Which leads to this proposal: par-roast the birds in order to crisp the skin before assembly. It won't stay crisp, but it'll be nicely browned, and the texture will be more appealing. Then wrap the whole assembly in bacon to keep the fat content up while roasting and avoid the dried-out mouth feel of over-roasted bird. If you must. You could also just roast them all individually and avoid all of these problems. And still wrap them in bacon, which would result in - more bacon!
| 290 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:47:12am |
re: #266 Scion9
To FBV, while we can't realistically have people pay more for things like their sexual behavior or a risky sporting hobbies, we can have them pay more if they are habitually contracting STDs that need treatment or breaking bones, and we can by default tax people that fall into demographics that are likely to be prone to that behavior as well.
Your car insurance goes up if you prove yourself likely to get in accidents, with the occasional one being forgiven depending on your plan. It goes down as you go from youth to middle age. Healthcare can workout similar demographic information to determine who pays what based on use and likely use of the service.
This isn't right. For one thing, some people are more prone to breaking bones than others, not because they're taking more risks but simply because they either have a genetic predisposition that makes them likely to do so-- or they are in a demographic where bones break more easily (the elderly, and especially women with calcium deficiencies).
As for car accidents-- yes, and your insurance goes up even if some drunk driver rear ends you. Even if someone else is driving recklessly and you've done everything right-- but they hit you. "Proving yourself likely to get into accidents"-- if left up to the insurance companies-- often means no more than bad luck.
| 291 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:47:38am |
re: #289 SixDegrees
This isn't an appropriate time for me to mention Richard Gere, is it.
| 292 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:48:37am |
re: #284 _RememberTonyC
Another thing about the Food Network is that they stole "direction" from Nigella Lawson's show from 10 or so years ago. Busy camera and close up shots, etc.
| 293 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:49:21am |
| 294 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:49:25am |
re: #292 Cannadian Club Akbar
Another thing about the Food Network is that they stole "direction" from Nigella Lawson's show from 10 or so years ago. Busy camera and close up shots, etc.
are you a TV person?
| 295 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:50:24am |
re: #289 SixDegrees
Turducken is...interesting. And the practice of stuffing animals inside other animals inside yet other animals has a long history, with recipes going back at least to the Middle Ages.
The problem is that the inner birds - the duck and chicken - never get their skins crisped. They get steamed. And frankly, steamed, rubbery poulty skin just isn't all that appealing.
Also, the outer bird tends to dry out; the cooking time for a solid ball of meat is a lot longer than it is for a basically hollow turkey.
Which leads to this proposal: par-roast the birds in order to crisp the skin before assembly. It won't stay crisp, but it'll be nicely browned, and the texture will be more appealing. Then wrap the whole assembly in bacon to keep the fat content up while roasting and avoid the dried-out mouth feel of over-roasted bird. If you must. You could also just roast them all individually and avoid all of these problems. And still wrap them in bacon, which would result in - more bacon!
I think the theory in this particular joining is that the duck would keep the other two moister (if that's a word)
| 296 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:50:32am |
re: #289 SixDegrees
Turducken is...interesting. And the practice of stuffing animals inside other animals inside yet other animals has a long history, with recipes going back at least to the Middle Ages.
The problem is that the inner birds - the duck and chicken - never get their skins crisped. They get steamed. And frankly, steamed, rubbery poulty skin just isn't all that appealing.
Also, the outer bird tends to dry out; the cooking time for a solid ball of meat is a lot longer than it is for a basically hollow turkey.
Which leads to this proposal: par-roast the birds in order to crisp the skin before assembly. It won't stay crisp, but it'll be nicely browned, and the texture will be more appealing. Then wrap the whole assembly in bacon to keep the fat content up while roasting and avoid the dried-out mouth feel of over-roasted bird. If you must. You could also just roast them all individually and avoid all of these problems. And still wrap them in bacon, which would result in - more bacon!
Turducken is cooked at a fairly low temp, 325 for 5 or so hours, to reduce the drying out problems you talk about. The skins being left on is also supposed to reduce the drying out. I just pull the skin off before eating.
| 297 |
revobob Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:51:33am |
re: #37 Racer X
I am not frightened of dying. Anytime will do.
Why should I be?
True, but no sense in rushin!
| 298 |
VioletTiger Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:51:46am |
re: #273 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think the real, and very contentious issue, is
Is healthcare a right?
If it is a right, then we have to say who or what has granted that right, and who has to provide it.
And if healthcare is a right, what about flat screen TVs, plumbing and carpentry services?
| 299 |
lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:51:52am |
Morning all.
Anyone in a congressional district with a Health Care "Q&A" session today? I'm eager to see if Obama calls off his militant corps or continues to encourage them.
Heath Shuler, a Blue Dog, (he's not my Rep., but he's in a neighboring district) has folded like a cheap suit and will now only be doing a "tele-town hall" meeting. Essentially he'll be live-blogging a conversation with himself.
| 300 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:52:09am |
re: #246 summergurl
So what do you think about morbidly obese people paying more for health insurance?
Just asking
This is a complicated question.
There should arguably be increased premiums for those who engage in risky behaviours, particularly where the increased risk results from a conscious lifestyle choice.
OTOH, if the risk results from an involuntary illness over which the person has little or no control, then it is more palatable for the cost to be spread more equally.
In the case of morbid obesity, I think it is fair for a gluttonous pie-hole stuffing couch potato to pay a higher premium than someone whose obesity results from a metabolic defect or a mental illness.
But the real difficulty is - who gets to decide what is a voluntary behaviour and what is not?
| 301 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:52:28am |
re: #294 _RememberTonyC
are you a TV person?
No, not at all. I go to friends houses and they have on Food Network. If I make something and people say, " it needs this or it needs that," I tell them to cook it themselves.
| 303 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:53:38am |
re: #299 lincolntf
Morning all.
Anyone in a congressional district with a Health Care "Q&A" session today? I'm eager to see if Obama calls off his militant corps or continues to encourage them.
Heath Shuler, a Blue Dog, (he's not my Rep., but he's in a neighboring district) has folded like a cheap suit and will now only be doing a "tele-town hall" meeting. Essentially he'll be live-blogging a conversation with himself.
From what I've read a lot of them are reducing their actual face time for their ...health!
| 304 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:54:08am |
re: #279 reine.de.tout
eek.
The problem with that . . . as people age, they will use greater healthcare resources. For a person who has been retired for a few years, it could well use up their entire monthly income to pay a premium based on their healthcare usage. I would much prefer, while I'm younger, to subsidize usage by older folks by paying the same premium they pay, with the assurance that when I'm older the same rates will apply even though I am using more healthcare resources.but here we see - you've illustrated that the issue isn't healthcare. The issue is health insurance (whether private or gov't issued insurance).
This points out another looming disaster implicit in the currently proposed plan. The stated "solution" to the high costs incurred by old farts is to enroll a whole bunch of youngsters in the program, whose additional premiums would more than cover the old fart expenditures. The problem ought to be obvious, and it's the same one causing Social Security to swirl into the toilet at this very moment - the number of retirees relative to the population as a whole is increasing. I forget the exact numbers, but when SS got started there were dozens of employees paying for each retiree; today, that ratio has dropped dramatically to under a dozen, and is continuing to shrink as the population ages. It's exactly the same problem that is crushing Europe's health care systems, and Canada's - and it's going to happen here, too, once the rosy projections being made collide with reality. There just aren't going to be enough taxpayers to shore up the demand for care.
There are two solutions, and no one wants to talk about either one. You can raise taxes enormously to make up for the dwindling tax inputs. Or you can severely restrict access to care in order to cut back on outlays.
I have yet to see cost projections that take any of this into account. Every one of them is static; they assume that nothing will ever change from the way things are in the present, an impossibly ludicrous assumption.
| 305 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:54:55am |
re: #296 reine.de.tout
Turducken is cooked at a fairly low temp, 325 for 5 or so hours, to reduce the drying out problems you talk about. The skins being left on is also supposed to reduce the drying out. I just pull the skin off before eating.
That's intersting. Is it good? It just always seemed so excessive to me. Sounds like a good idea...
I have cooked Tofurkey for a few holiday meals, and it's surprisingly good.
| 306 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:55:13am |
re: #300 Spare O'Lake
. . .
But the real difficulty is - who gets to decide what is a voluntary behaviour and what is not?
There ya go.
Who is writing the definitions, and who is interpreting the definitions?
It's not likely to be the same people, so what was intended might not be what actually ends up being.
Also, having worked in Gubmint for many years, I can tell you - definitions are "reinterpreted" all the time. Not necessarily for the better.
| 307 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:55:51am |
re: #299 lincolntf
Well, he was also a shitty quarterback.
| 308 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:55:55am |
re: #291 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
This isn't an appropriate time for me to mention Richard Gere, is it.
I'm not sure if there's ever an appropriate time to mention Richard Gere. But you lost me, so go ahead.
| 311 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:56:24am |
re: #302 VioletTiger
Or you could just make a turkey!
Good Morning Violet and are the Lizards!
Turkey, Tomato, lettuce, a slice of philly cream cheese, pepper and Mayo on 7 grain bread..
No that is living!
| 312 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:56:40am |
re: #305 iceweasel
I will never come to your house for Thanksgiving:)
| 313 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:56:54am |
re: #308 SixDegrees
Silly, you were talking about stuffing animals into animals...
| 314 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:56:55am |
re: #301 Cannadian Club Akbar
No, not at all. I go to friends houses and they have on Food Network. If I make something and people say, " it needs this or it needs that," I tell them to cook it themselves.
I like that attitude. My wife likes FoodNetwork and occasionally gets ambitious and cooks one of the meals she sees on TV. And while I appreciate her ambition in doing it, she always sends me to the store to find her exotic ingrediants. And I end up getting all this stuff she uses once. Frequently we spend more on the stuff than it would cost to go out and eat at a restaurant. And "you know who" gets stuck cleaning up because in our house, the cook cooks and the "others" clean up.
| 315 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:57:22am |
re: #305 iceweasel
That's intersting. Is it good? It just always seemed so excessive to me. Sounds like a good idea...
I have cooked Tofurkey for a few holiday meals, and it's surprisingly good.
Yes, it's good!
And as you say, excessive LOL.
Really a lot of meat.
Best used when you're expecting a lot of people - 20 -30.
| 316 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:57:47am |
re: #296 reine.de.tout
Turducken is cooked at a fairly low temp, 325 for 5 or so hours, to reduce the drying out problems you talk about. The skins being left on is also supposed to reduce the drying out. I just pull the skin off before eating.
Removing the skins seems like a good idea. Although let's face it - the crispy skin is the best part. Whenever I see all those packages of skinless chicken parts at the supermarket, I can't help but wonder what happened to the skins, and I start thinking about my deep fryer...
| 317 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:58:03am |
re: #311 HoosierHoops
Good Morning Violet and are the Lizards!
Turkey, Tomato, lettuce, a slice of philly cream cheese, pepper and Mayo on 7 grain bread..
No that is living!
You forgot the bacon. Peppered bacon would be a nice addition.
| 318 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:59:23am |
Zombie pretty much nailed it up thread.
A large percentage of our health care expenditure goes toward disease related cost associated with environmental influences.
But we must remember, there are many, many people who require ongoing medical care who through no fault of their own, persist with such conditions.
I did not grow up with any affluence. None. Blue collar, working class family. We shared clothing, bought used cars, and going out to McDonald's was an obscure treat.
The one thing my parents drilled into me was personal responsibility. One of those responsibilities was making sure I had a job that provided benefits, because it was the right thing to do. From the time I turned 18, that is what I did. I worked 3 part time jobs, while going to school part time before going into the service.
The problem with what is being proposed, is there is no way it will not diminish access, quality, and "choice". To argue otherwise is being dishonest.
As Krauthammer opined, to rush into something that could potentially rock 1/6 of our economy is foolish.
I live this life. I am on the side of providing care. Trust me, be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
| 319 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:59:39am |
re: #314 _RememberTonyC
We have something in common... except I'm the only one who cooks and the only one that cleans. Other than that, sounds precise.
| 320 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:59:42am |
all this talk of food is making me hungry, or maybe it is the smell of bacon wafting in from the kitchen.
| 321 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:59:43am |
re: #317 Cannadian Club Akbar
You forgot the bacon. Peppered bacon would be a nice addition.
Good Morning!
/I hate bacon...You just ruined my dream sandwich!
:)
| 322 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 5:59:56am |
gotta go Lizards ... time to get ready for work. BBL I hope ... have a great weekend!
| 323 |
VioletTiger Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:00:01am |
re: #304 SixDegrees
You're right. That is why they want to 'make' people have health insurance, even if they are young and healthy and choose not to. And it will go the way of social security. It's a pyramid scheme, doomed to collapse.
| 324 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:00:52am |
re: #302 VioletTiger
Or you could just make a turkey!
Not much "Wow!" factor in that. Unless you deep fry it.
| 325 |
_RememberTonyC Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:06am |
re: #319 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
We have something in common... except I'm the only one who cooks and the only one that cleans. Other than that, sounds precise.
sounds like someone in your house is NOT pulling their weight! hopefully they have other skills :)
| 326 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:21am |
re: #279 reine.de.tout
There is no assurance that the service will be there by the time I need it. I'm about 3/4 of the way paid up on my social security and I'm 27. I'll be paying in for another 38 years and I'll never ever get anywhere near what I paid in back. This healthcare bill isn't any different. I'll pay in my entire life and I'll never get back anything close to what I paid in no matter how sick or unhealthy I am in my old age. So as long as that assurance is there is an if of massive proportions.
Also 'getting old' and 'being a woman' are not lifestyle choices, so that is taking my position out of context.
| 327 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:21am |
re: #290 iceweasel
Actually iceweasel, you might want to look into why that is.
Try some of the blue states with no fault laws.
| 328 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:37am |
re: #313 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Silly, you were talking about stuffing animals into animals...
Oh, I get it.
I have to go wash myself for a while...
| 329 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:47am |
re: #314 _RememberTonyC
I cook, they clean. But I also keep a sink full of soapy water to clean as I go.
| 330 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:01:57am |
re: #310 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
NOM NOM NOM NOM!
It's GOOD, isn't it?? Love it!
re: #312 Cannadian Club Akbar
I will never come to your house for Thanksgiving:)
At the time I was making this I wasn't even vegetarian any longer, myself, but several of my guests were. It's really delicious, even for someone who is used to eating meat, I promise.
In general seitan is yummy, and (usually) yummier than tofu to someone who is used to meat. It's a texture thing. Seitan is a better meat substitute for meat eaters who want the same sort of texture, IMO. FBV would likely know more than I and have more to say.
| 331 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:02:01am |
re: #324 SixDegrees
Not much "Wow!" factor in that. Unless you deep fry it.
My fave! Love fried turkey.
| 332 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:03:03am |
re: #330 iceweasel
At the time I was making this I wasn't even vegetarian any longer, myself, but several of my guests were. It's really delicious, even for someone who is used to eating meat, I promise.
In general seitan is yummy, and (usually) yummier than tofu to someone who is used to meat. It's a texture thing. Seitan is a better meat substitute for meat eaters who want the same sort of texture, IMO. FBV would likely know more than I and have more to say.
Good morning Ice! Hope today finds you well!
| 333 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:03:30am |
| 334 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:03:50am |
re: #314 _RememberTonyC
That's the way it works in my home. I don't mind cleaning up because he is a great cook. He gets ideas from the food network too, and then makes substitutions based on what is in the house. that works out pretty well, at least so far. :-)
| 335 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:04:12am |
re: #298 VioletTiger
Thank you. My argument from the outset.
When asked in the debate, if he thought it was a right, he said yes.
Again, if anyone would like to correct me for being wrong, but I thought this decision must be an act of Congress first.
| 336 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:04:32am |
re: #333 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
you are welcome...
Good Morning Veggie! A food thread? This is your fault isn't it?
Thank you! LOL
| 337 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:04:47am |
| 340 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:06:16am |
re: #337 Cannadian Club Akbar
Do'H!!!
[Video]
Oh, yes! Have to be careful!
I've never encountered a problem. But then, I'm not a complete idiot.
| 341 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:06:25am |
re: #336 HoosierHoops
I think I'm innocent here... they were talking about Richard Gere... I don't know how the food talk started...
| 342 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:06:47am |
| 344 |
VioletTiger Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:07:54am |
re: #335 formercorpsman
Thank you. My argument from the outset.
When asked in the debate, if he thought it was a right, he said yes.
Again, if anyone would like to correct me for being wrong, but I thought this decision must be an act of Congress first.
Agree.
People were not listening very well in the debate, focusing on slick words and style instead.
I think the only rights we are guaranteed are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
| 345 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:08:08am |
| 346 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:08:21am |
re: #326 Scion9
There is no assurance that the service will be there by the time I need it. I'm about 3/4 of the way paid up on my social security and I'm 27. I'll be paying in for another 38 years and I'll never ever get anywhere near what I paid in back. This healthcare bill isn't any different. I'll pay in my entire life and I'll never get back anything close to what I paid in no matter how sick or unhealthy I am in my old age. So as long as that assurance is there is an if of massive proportions.
Also 'getting old' and 'being a woman' are not lifestyle choices, so that is taking my position out of context.
You are making some very questionable assumptions about your own health prospects and working life expectancy.
What if you develop a serious illness or you have an accident which leaves you with long-term medical needs?
Young healthy people often mistakenly believe that they are invulnerable.
| 347 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:08:38am |
re: #341 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
I think I'm innocent here... they were talking about Richard Gere... I don't know how the food talk started...
If I get a choice between food and the Richard Gere/ hampster thing, I pick food:)
| 348 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:08:45am |
re: #21 iceweasel
Sorry, Weasel, but Betsy's a friend of mine, and your link doesn't prove her a liar. It proves only that a lefty buddy of your who knows nothing about health care has labeled her a liar.
| 350 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:09:32am |
re: #314 _RememberTonyC
I like that attitude. My wife likes FoodNetwork and occasionally gets ambitious and cooks one of the meals she sees on TV. And while I appreciate her ambition in doing it, she always sends me to the store to find her exotic ingrediants. And I end up getting all this stuff she uses once. Frequently we spend more on the stuff than it would cost to go out and eat at a restaurant. And "you know who" gets stuck cleaning up because in our house, the cook cooks and the "others" clean up.
I have the same problem with TFN. A lot of what they cook with may be easy to come by in New York, but it's impossible to find around here. And by the time you pay shipping on top of the exorbitant cost of fermented butter, or whatever, it's just ridiculous.
A good cook adapts to what's available locally. There's no harm in modifying a recipe to suit ingredients that you can actually obtain. In fact, that's how great cuisines come about; through the blending of different dishes.
France may be a nation of surrender monkeys, but every conqueror has left some portion of their own cuisine behind, and the results speak for themselves in the food.
| 351 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:09:55am |
re: #349 VioletTiger
Going blackberry picking!
Cheers lizards.
Blackberry Cobbler with ice cream in the micro for 15 secs..
Heaven on earth
| 352 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:10:08am |
re: #346 Spare O'Lake
But I think for someone in his position, there are numerous options that exist which make better sense financially.
HSA is one.
| 353 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:10:26am |
re: #347 Cannadian Club Akbar
If I get a choice between food and the Richard Gere/ hampster thing, I pick food:)
Amen to that! LOL
| 354 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:10:58am |
re: #326 Scion9
There is no assurance that the service will be there by the time I need it. I'm about 3/4 of the way paid up on my social security and I'm 27. I'll be paying in for another 38 years and I'll never ever get anywhere near what I paid in back. This healthcare bill isn't any different. I'll pay in my entire life and I'll never get back anything close to what I paid in no matter how sick or unhealthy I am in my old age. So as long as that assurance is there is an if of massive proportions.
Also 'getting old' and 'being a woman' are not lifestyle choices, so that is taking my position out of context.
No intention to take your position out of context - I guess I simply misunderstood.
| 355 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:11:57am |
re: #344 VioletTiger
Agree.
People were not listening very well in the debate, focusing on slick words and style instead.
I think the only rights we are guaranteed are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.
Health care is a human right.
So said the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the UN Gen Assembly in 1948.
The US signed it.
| 356 |
Cannadian Club Akbar Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:12:45am |
Remember, when it comes to food, there are no longer recipies, just guidelines, with the exception of baking or pastry.
| 357 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:13:05am |
re: #332 HoosierHoops
Good morning Ice! Hope today finds you well!
Hey cutie, how are you?
That sandwich of yours sounded delicious, by the way...
| 358 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:13:45am |
I'm watching my DVR'd "Crossroads" with Alison Kraus and Robert Plant.
He's singing "The Boy Who Couldn't Hoe Corn".
It is sheer vocal and phrasing genius.
| 359 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:15:00am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Does that trump of Bill of Rights or the Constitution?
| 360 |
Erik The Red Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:15:10am |
SMBT.
S aturday
M orning
B reakfast
T hread.
Now I am going to cook some eggs and bacon. :)
| 361 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:15:56am |
| 362 |
lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:17:13am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Which points out how meaningless "human rights" accords are.
If health care is truly a "Right", then does every illness constitute a violation of your rights? Can one sue the influenza virus or file charges against the sidewalk they slipped on?
If health care was truly the goal of the "human rights" crowd, then every country would be mimicking the United States, not the other way around.
| 363 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:17:41am |
re: #357 iceweasel
Hey cutie, how are you?
That sandwich of yours sounded delicious, by the way...
good Morning sweetheart...
I was in a Motel in Montreal once and for room service that had a sampling of all the french pastries the chief makes...
God..Talk about feeling guilty! Damn they were good...
:)
oh...About car insurance you spoke of early...I have a story
| 364 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:17:59am |
| 366 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:18:19am |
re: #348 quickjustice
Sorry, Weasel, but Betsy's a friend of mine, and your link doesn't prove her a liar. It proves only that a lefty buddy of your who knows nothing about health care has labeled her a liar.
Actually, no.
I linked to one of many, many links showing McCaughey is a liar on this issue. She's been a paid shill for ths subject for 15 years or so now.
BTW, the link I gave, proving your friend is wrong, is not a 'lefty buddy' of mine. Ezra Klein is pretty great on health policy.
| 367 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:18:56am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Since it is not a treaty, it was never ratified by the Senate. Being a signatory of the document doesn't signify much except that it can be cited in court and incorporated in law based on those rulings. It's a non-binding document in most cases.
| 368 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:19:23am |
re: #359 formercorpsman
Does that trump of Bill of Rights or the Constitution?
Show me where either of those exclude health care as a right, please.
| 369 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:19:39am |
re: #361 Fat Bastard Vegetarian
Is that what you call it?
Beats the hell out of saying, "I have to go wash my gerbil."
| 370 |
Macker Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:19:54am |
re: #360 Erik The Red
SMBT.
S aturday
M orning
B reakfast
T hread.Now I am going to cook some eggs and bacon. :)
Just finishing up my bowl of Cinnamon Life and then heading into the shower, then off to work.
On a Saturday. Ugh.
That said...Good Morning Lizards!
| 371 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:20:41am |
re: #363 HoosierHoops
good Morning sweetheart...
I was in a Motel in Montreal once and for room service that had a sampling of all the french pastries the chief makes...
God..Talk about feeling guilty! Damn they were good...
:)
oh...About car insurance you spoke of early...I have a story
The pastries sound very, very nice...and like an interesting story!
What's your car insurance story? May I ask?
| 372 |
lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:21:13am |
re: #368 iceweasel
Everyone has the right to care of their own health. At least, they do now. We'll see if that's still true in a couple months.
| 373 |
jvic Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:21:18am |
re: #4 iceweasel
And best Bond movies!Also, gives me a chance to post one of my favourite comics from one of my favourite webcomics-- if LudwigVanQuixote shows up, this is something I think he'd like:
A lawyer, a minister, and an engineer were condemned to be executed.
On the appointed day, the lawyer went first. The hangperson pulled the lever that opened the trapdoor but the trapdoor was jammed shut. The lawyer claimed he could not be put in double jeopardy, so the presiding magistrate let him go.
The minister was next. Again the trapdoor jammed. He claimed divine intervention and the magistrate let him go.
The engineer was last. As he was led up the scaffold steps, he seemed lost in thought and unaware of his surroundings. The rope was knotted around his neck, the magistrate gave the signal, and...the engineer straightened up and shouted, "Stop! I know what the problem is!"
***
There's an element of truth in that joke. When I first heard it, it struck me as a gibe at the fool engineer. Now that it comes back to mind after however many years, I'm thinking that it has a deeper level which is not a gibe at all.
Maybe the real fools are those who do not appreciate how important it is to have people like that engineer among us.
| 374 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:22:49am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Health care is a human right.
So is liberty. And as government confiscation of the fruits of individual labor increases, liberty dwindles.
Find a way to provide it that doesn't involve handing over a sixth of the economy to government control, resulting in a vast increase in government power, and I'll listen.
| 375 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:23:23am |
re: #366 iceweasel
No, he's not. He's a blogger, a journalist, and a flak without the training in economics and health care necesssary to evaluate the primary issues properly.
Regina Herzlinger is the best policy analyst in the health care arena:
[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]
| 376 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:25:00am |
re: #371 iceweasel
The pastries sound very, very nice...and like an interesting story!
What's your car insurance story? May I ask?
Well you said something upthread about rates going up even if it's not your fault.. A couple years ago I bought a new car and had it parked at my friends house when a lady in a mini van full of kids destroyed 3 cars parked including mine.. I didn't pay anything and the following year my insurance actually went down.. Color me surprised...I sold the car..I couldn't look at it the same way any more...It was dead to me. LOL
| 377 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:26:03am |
Morning Honcos!
More problems with the Boeing 787 delays... the customers are not happy.
HT Dustoff-507
| 378 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:26:15am |
re: #370 Macker
Just finishing up my bowl of Cinnamon Life and then heading into the shower, then off to work.
On a Saturday. Ugh.
That said...Good Morning Lizards!
What's this stuff?
Some cereal, s'posed to be good for ya.
I'm not gonna try it... hey! Let's get Macker!
Yeah!
He won't eat it. He hates everything!
He likes it! Hey Macker!
(announcer)
Regular, Cinnamon, and Raisin Life; Nutritious, delicious.
| 379 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:27:05am |
Morning, everyone. Looking at IceWeasel's link, it says:
Article 25
1. Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
2. Motherhood and childhood are entitled to special care and assistance. All children, whether born in or out of wedlock, shall enjoy the same social protection.
I parse that as: everyone has the right to a standard of living that is high enough to ensure adequate health and well-being. No where do I read the phrase "entitlement" or "health care."
| 380 |
Van Helsing Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:28:33am |
re: #368 iceweasel
Show me where either of those exclude health care as a right, please.
The Constitution was designed to spell out the responsibilities of the Federal government.
The way it was SUPPOSED to work, is if it was not specifically assigned to the fed, it was up to the states.
That's been screwed for a long, long, time.
Hence a large number of people unhappy with the over-reaching federal government.
| 381 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:30:49am |
re: #379 vxbush
What link and document are we referring to this morning?
| 382 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:30:57am |
re: #379 vxbush
I've read it before, and unfortunately Article 25 does say that everyone has a right to...food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services...
Medical care and health care are not necessarily synonymous but good luck picking that nit in a debate.
| 384 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:31:46am |
re: #374 SixDegrees
So is liberty. And as government confiscation of the fruits of individual labor increases, liberty dwindles.
Find a way to provide it that doesn't involve handing over a sixth of the economy to government control, resulting in a vast increase in government power, and I'll listen.
You mean by government "regulating" the private insurance companies out of existence by forcing them to insure unacceptble risks at unprofitable premiums?
Uh...never mind.
| 385 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:32:14am |
re: #382 Scion9
I've read it before, and unfortunately Article 25 does say that everyone has a right to...food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services...
Medical care and health care are not necessarily synonymous but good luck picking that nit in a debate.
Medical care is not health insurance. I would think those two would be obviously different.
| 386 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:32:17am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Alas, health care is NOT a human right, or at least, not an inalienable right. Inalienable rights are G-d-given, meaning that they exist whether government confers them on you or not.
A "right" the government confers on you, the government can take away. If the U.N. resolution to which you refer were repealed tomorrow, would the status of health care change? I think not. If government calls something like health care a "right", government undertakes to provide it.
Obama talked about this in distinguishing between "positive" and "negative" rights. The Declaration of Independence confers negative rights, rights the government did not create, and cannot take away from you. Anything the government provides, properly called "entitlements", not "rights", the government can take away.
That's happening right now with health care "reform". Medicare is on the verge of bankruptcy, and the end result of Obama's "reform" will be less health care for the elderly, not more.
| 387 |
Fat Bastard Vegetarian Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:32:36am |
I guess I better get moving. Hope y'all watch that Robert Plant I linked earlier. I love it! Wanna share.
It is my human right that you watch it.
Not really...but perfect way to flounce off for a few hours.
| 388 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:36:28am |
re: #375 quickjustice
No, he's not. He's a blogger, a journalist, and a flak without the training in economics and health care necesssary to evaluate the primary issues properly.
Regina Herzlinger is the best policy analyst in the health care arena:
[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]
No, you're wrong.
BTW, did you know that the manhattan institute you're flogging here is a well-known shill for the tobacco industry, as well as various conservative and neo-conservative groups?
| 389 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:36:39am |
re: #379 vxbush
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Fundamentally and fatally flawed thinking.
No one as a RIGHT to any of those things.
A RIGHT is intrinsic to an individual, it can only be exercised by the individual. A RIGHT is not BESTOWED upon an individual. The individual has all rights, they can be denied, or not exercised, or in a civil society the individual can willing restrict certain rights so as not to infringe on others.
You have a right to access them, to obtain them, through your own effort, not a right TO them.
A RIGHT places no obligation on anyone else. Placing an obligation on others to provide rights, denies them their rights.
| 390 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:39:05am |
re: #355 iceweasel
Health care is a human right.
So said the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, adopted by the UN Gen Assembly in 1948.
The US signed it.
Yes, and this is a non-binding declaration.
"In the preamble, governments commit themselves and their peoples to measures to secure the universal and effective recognition and observance of the human rights set out in the Declaration. Eleanor Roosevelt supported the adoption the UDHR as a declaration, rather than as a treaty, because she believed that it would have the same kind of influence on global society as the United States Declaration of Independence had within the United States. In this she proved to be correct. Even though not formally legally binding, the Declaration has been adopted in or influenced most national constitutions since 1948. It also serves as the foundation for a growing number of international treaties and national laws and international, regional, national and sub-national institutions protecting and promoting human rights."
Nice try.
| 391 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:39:07am |
A 'right' is something which doesn't impose an obligation on anyone else, other than to allow you to exercise your right.
If we take the health care 'right' as defined by the Democrats and apply it to other rights outlined in the Constitution (or found there by the courts), we'd have:
1) Not only the freedom of speech, but the government would have to provide you with a printing press or radio or TV station to get your views out.
2) Not only the right to freely exercise your religion, but the government would have to build a church, for everyone.
3) Not only the right to keep and bear arms, but the government would have to provide you with a weapon
4) Not only the right to an abortion, but the government would have to pay for ALL of them.
5) Not just the right to travel, but the all means of transportation would be 'free'.
So just how far do we take this?
| 392 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:39:25am |
re: #384 Spare O'Lake
You mean by government "regulating" the private insurance companies out of existence by forcing them to insure unacceptble risks at unprofitable premiums?
Uh...never mind.
Food for thought: proponents of government run health care claim that there are between 30 and 40 million uninsured people in the country. You can take issue with this figure - it is almost certainly inflated - but let's accept it for the moment. With a population of around 350 million, then, we currently have a system run by the private sector that provides health care coverage to roughly 90% of the populace. With no government involvement at all.
How much tinkering is necessary to extend that system to the remaining 10%? Does it require a wholesale takeover of the system by the government to accomplish such a small incremental improvement?
Or is the proposal to overhaul the system from top to bottom only a power grab, aimed at placing an enormous portion of the nation's economy along with the very health of it's citizens into government hands?
That's a hell of a lot of commotion over what even it's proponents claim is a very small problem.
| 394 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:41:19am |
re: #376 HoosierHoops
Well you said something upthread about rates going up even if it's not your fault.. A couple years ago I bought a new car and had it parked at my friends house when a lady in a mini van full of kids destroyed 3 cars parked including mine.. I didn't pay anything and the following year my insurance actually went down.. Color me surprised...I sold the car..I couldn't look at it the same way any more...It was dead to me. LOL
I'm glad that worked out for you in terms of insurance rates, Hoops! Still sorry it happened to you and I can understand needing to sell the car. :(
I've had friends who never had an accident and whose rates went up when they were rear-ended at a stoplight by a drunk driver. I guess it depends on your company and your state, among other things.
| 395 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:41:45am |
re: #380 Van Helsing
The Constitution was designed to spell out the responsibilities of the Federal government.
The way it was SUPPOSED to work, is if it was not specifically assigned to the fed, it was up to the states.
That's been screwed for a long, long, time.
Hence a large number of people unhappy with the over-reaching federal government.
The states and the people, of course.
That's the problem with Obama's comment about the Constitution not saying what the government must do for you. He fails to realize the Constitution was written as a LIMIT on the power of the government, not as an excuse for the government to grow ever bigger.
| 398 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:42:32am |
re: #385 vxbush
Medical care is not health insurance. I would think those two would be obviously different.
In your #379, you said
No where do I read the phrase "entitlement" or "health care."
If you meant health insurance, ok, but don't blame Scion9 for responding to what you actually wrote.
| 399 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:42:48am |
Good morning y'all - from a warm (74 degrees, going up to 92 degrees) but bright and sunny Charlotte!
Mom and I are doing ok, I hope everyone out here is doing the same or better!
| 400 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:43:23am |
re: #385 vxbush
Medical care is not health insurance. I would think those two would be obviously different.
I agree with you on everything but how obvious that point is. However, if we are going by original intent do the research on the history of the document and who was involved with the drafting.
I have no doubt that the people who actually wrote the document would disagree that 'medical care' is not 'health insurance'. Your right to medical treatment being insured by others is a right according to the document and that was the intent of its architects.
It's the Universal Declaration of Rooseveltian Christian Socialists. They knew exactly what they were writing and it's not being misinterpreted or misconstrued to say that 'health care is a right'. That is what they wanted it to say.
I find the aims of the document and believe in the potential good that could come from international organizations, but the document is far from 'Universal' in it's declaration and no nation that signed it has ever adhered to it because of that. It was and remains a wish list of people of a particular political stripe.
| 401 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:43:50am |
re: #366 iceweasel
Ezra's article proves that he's naive or disingenuous, or perhaps both. To pull a single sentence out of a 1600 page piece of legislation, and claim that it concludes the question of whether you could get health care outside Hillary's proposed health care system is naive or disingenuous. I had the misfortune of having to read the entire bill.
Not withstanding that single sentence, it would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, for U.S. health care professionals to practice medicine outside Hillary's system. Doctors catering to the very wealthy might have been able to do it. Or rich people who could afford to travel abroad might have been exempted. That's about it.
If a law says it's legal to get health care outside the system, but you can't find anyone to provide that health care, what's the reality?
| 402 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:44:04am |
re: #389 jcm
Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food, clothing, housing and medical care and necessary social services, and the right to security in the event of unemployment, sickness, disability, widowhood, old age or other lack of livelihood in circumstances beyond his control.
Fundamentally and fatally flawed thinking.
No one as a RIGHT to any of those things.
A RIGHT is intrinsic to an individual, it can only be exercised by the individual. A RIGHT is not BESTOWED upon an individual. The individual has all rights, they can be denied, or not exercised, or in a civil society the individual can willing restrict certain rights so as not to infringe on others.
You have a right to access them, to obtain them, through your own effort, not a right TO them.
A RIGHT places no obligation on anyone else. Placing an obligation on others to provide rights, denies them their rights.
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Call me a fucking commie, but I don't think so.
| 403 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:44:20am |
re: #391 right_wing2
A 'right' is something which doesn't impose an obligation on anyone else, other than to allow you to exercise your right.
Not so.
All of our protections involve some obligation, if only the obligation of tolerance, on others. Our rights always impose an obligation on others, namely, at minimum, that others not infringe upon those rights.
| 404 |
KenJen Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:45:12am |
re: #392 SixDegrees
I'd be willing to bet that 85 percent of the 90 percent are perfectly happy with their current coverage. That's a lot of people Obama's ticking off.
| 405 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:45:17am |
re: #399 realwest
Good morning y'all - from a warm (74 degrees, going up to 92 degrees) but bright and sunny Charlotte!
Mom and I are doing ok, I hope everyone out here is doing the same or better!
That's really good to hear. Doing fine here.
| 407 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:45:57am |
re: #399 realwest
RW!
Morning! Have a seat, how do you take your coffee? I think Erik The Red is taking breakfast orders.
| 408 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:46:50am |
re: #389 jcm
A RIGHT places no obligation on anyone else. Placing an obligation on others to provide rights, denies them their rights.
A thousand updings. My rights end where your rights begin, and vice versa.
| 409 |
Gang of One Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:46:52am |
Good morning all ... Real, glad to hear you and mom are doing well. Have I missed anything?
| 410 |
The Other Les Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:47:17am |
I have to admit that Miss Galore is one of my favorite Bond Girl characters.
| 411 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:47:31am |
re: #407 jcm
jcm!!! How are you today? I just got my coffee - light and sweet but thanks anyway (ETR - take a break on me! LOL!).
| 412 |
Capitalistincharge Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:47:44am |
A little somethin for a week-end morning. Put your coffe cup down before viewing. (Only warning)
| 413 |
Killian Bundy Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:48:22am |
Geithner asks Congress for higher U.S. debt limit
U.S. Treasury Secretary Timothy Geithner formally requested that Congress raise the $12.1 trillion statutory debt limit on Friday, saying that it could be breached as early as mid-October.
"It is critically important that Congress act before the limit is reached so that citizens and investors here and around the world can remain confident that the United States will always meet its obligations," Geithner said in a letter to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid that was obtained by Reuters.
A Treasury spokeswoman declined to comment on the letter.
Treasury officials earlier this week said that the debt limit, last raised in February when the $787 billion economic stimulus legislation was passed, would be hit sometime in the October-December quarter. Geithner's letter said the breach could be two weeks into that period, just as the 2010 fiscal year is getting underway.
The latest request comes as the Treasury is ramping up borrowing to unprecedented levels to fund stimulus and financial bailout programs and cope with a deep recession that has devastated tax revenues.
It is expected to issue net new debt of as much as $2 trillion in the 2009 fiscal year ended September 30 and up to $1.6 trillion in the 2010 fiscal year, according to bond dealer forecasts.
/and away we go
| 414 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:48:25am |
re: #409 Gang of One
Hey Gang, not since I've been on board, but then again I've only been here for a while.
| 415 |
KenJen Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:48:46am |
re: #397 vxbush
Gah. Must. Do. Housecleaning.
At least your home. I get to work today then do housecleaning. Bummer.
| 416 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:49:20am |
re: #404 KenJen
I'd be willing to bet that 85 percent of the 90 percent are perfectly happy with their current coverage. That's a lot of people Obama's ticking off.
I'd say it's at leats that much, with those that are NOT satisfied saying that they aren't becuase of things like their co-pay went from $20 to $25 this year, or that eye coverage used to cover lenses 100% but now only 90%
| 417 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:49:20am |
re: #414 realwest
Hey Gang, not since I've been on board, but then again I've only been here for a while.
Good morning Realwest...Hope you are well today...
| 418 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:49:35am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Well, why do we have to call it a "right"? Why can't we just make sure we do something because we want to, because it is the "right" thing to do? Terming it "a right" muddies the waters a bit. Technically, this sort of right would theoretically require that someone be forced to produce it for them, unlike the rights to be left alone and to be free to do things and have things. This would actually be mandating slavery, however much denial we engage in.
| 419 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:49:38am |
re: #399 realwest
good morning, glad you and yours are doing well.
| 420 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:49:57am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Call me a fucking commie, but I don't think so.
Right on, fellow 'commie'.
It's a national and yes, a moral disgrace that the wealthiest country on earth has millions of people who are without health insurance or are underinsured.
Frankly, it makes me sick to see the excuses being put forth here:
"Health care isn't a right!"
"Ok...so, health care isn't an inalienable right!"
'Health care isn't in the Constitution!"
"When the US signed the UN Declaration of Human RIghts they were really not engaging in a contract!"
"80 percent of the people who have health insurance are happy with their health insurance, so fuck you if you don't have insurance!"
Jesus Christ.
| 421 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:50:04am |
re: #388 iceweasel
In re broad-brushed smear mode today, are we? The Manhattan Institute is a conservative/libertarian think tank. It even includes a few neo-liberals. Former NYC Mayor Ed Koch and many other Democrats are members. NYC Democratic Comptroller Bill Thompson, likely to be the Democratic nominee for mayor, sends his staffers to Manhattan Institute policy briefings all the time. It developed the crime-control policies that enabled Rudy Giuliani to reduce crime in NYC by 90%. It also developed the welfare to work policies that reduced NYC's welfare roles by 70%, saving the city from bankruptcy. (Obama's stimulus just repealed welfare to work b/t/w, another policy disaster for your President).
Save your smears for Betsy, Weasel. She can handle them! ;-)
| 422 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:50:05am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Where did I say deny health care.
I said health care itself is not a right. Neither is air.
You do not have a right to air.
You have to breath for yourself.
NO PERSON CAN DENY YOU ACCESS TO AIR!
But also no one can obligated to provide to breath for you.
Everyone has the right to obtain, to have access to health care.
But that right to access does not extended to pounding on my door, demanding I take you to the doctor and then pay for the visit.
| 423 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:50:31am |
re: #417 HoosierHoops
Hi Hoops, yeah, I'm doing ok today thanks, how about you? How are you doing today?
| 425 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:51:12am |
re: #421 quickjustice
Save your smears for Betsy, Weasel. She can handle them! ;-)
No worries. She's getting called on all her lies all over the place. :)
| 426 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:51:45am |
| 427 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:52:01am |
re: #424 Sharmuta
Good morning, Folks.
{Sharm}
How do you take your coffee?
Hatchlings on coffee service are no where to be seen.
| 428 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:52:15am |
re: #420 iceweasel
iDub- just be careful mentioning that the healthy already pay for the sick with the current system.
| 429 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:52:41am |
re: #403 iceweasel
Not so.
All of our protections involve some obligation, if only the obligation of tolerance, on others. Our rights always impose an obligation on others, namely, at minimum, that others not infringe upon those rights.
We've stretched the word "obligation" to include "leave them alone" with "go work your ass off and give it to them." You are leaving me alone, but I think you would notice if I forced you to work for me. Very, very, different.
| 430 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:52:42am |
re: #398 lurking faith
If you meant health insurance, ok, but don't blame Scion9 for responding to what you actually wrote.
True. My apologies, scion. I can't claim to being awake here. Cats got me up before my brain did.
| 432 |
Gang of One Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:52:59am |
re: #414 realwest
Hey Gang, not since I've been on board, but then again I've only been here for a while.
Well, I've scrolled through the more recent posts, and it looks as if an interesting debate about rights is fomenting. Reminds me of some eloquent posts by either lawhawk or buzzsaw from about a week or so back regarding the nature of so-called human rights vs, civil rights. Mebbe I should go look for them ...
| 433 |
A Man for all Seasons Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:53:04am |
re: #424 Sharmuta
Good morning, Folks.
Good morning! A couple of hours and we fly out of this hell hole they call paradise...LOL
Hope you are well today
| 434 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:53:19am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Call me a fucking commie, but I don't think so.
OK, That would be communist thinking, sorry can't call you names, I don't know you. :-) In a free society you DO NOT have to right to the sweat of someone elses brow without recompense. That would mean that doctors are required to work for free. Maybe you would like to work for free!?
| 435 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:53:30am |
re: #424 Sharmuta
Good morning Shar - how are you doing this morning?
| 436 |
Killian Bundy Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:53:46am |
I'm sorry, is there any one in this country who isn't at least eligible for Medicaid?
/just checkin'
| 437 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:54:05am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
re: #420 iceweasel
What other "rights" should the gov't provide (meaning the producer/ taxpayers that is)
HOUSING? and if so, what type of house? Minimum 3 bedrooms 2 baths? 2500 sq. ft?
FOOD? 3 meals a day? What menu? Steak? Lobster??
TRANSPORTATION? A car? An SUV? Not older than 5 years? Must provide a GPS with it?
Are those all "RIGHTS" also??
If not, why not?
| 438 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:54:47am |
re: #428 Sharmuta
iDub- just be careful mentioning that the healthy already pay for the sick with the current system.
heh. I did already point that out downstairs, being a member of the factinista and all. :)
| 439 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:54:53am |
re: #428 Sharmuta
updong (see my 437 ,, I was typing as you posted)
| 440 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:55:05am |
Walter, jcm, {Hoops}, realwest-
Thanks you. I'm well this morning and hope you gentlemen are too.
| 441 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:55:43am |
re: #422 jcm
Where did I say deny health care.
I said health care itself is not a right. Neither is air.
You do not have a right to air.
You have to breath for yourself.
NO PERSON CAN DENY YOU ACCESS TO AIR!
But also no one can obligated to provide to breath for you.
Everyone has the right to obtain, to have access to health care.
But that right to access does not extended to pounding on my door, demanding I take you to the doctor and then pay for the visit.
JCM - also, people are not denied care.
The level of personal aggravation a person might endure from having to sit in an emergency room might be greater than what I have to endure, having insurance and being able to see a doctor at a regular office, but the bottom line is that care is not denied. I do not hear stories of thousands of US citizens dying yearly from lack of care.
The issue is purely one of insurance.
| 442 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:55:56am |
re: #428 Sharmuta
Except for those of us who are sick and have already paid and are continuing to pay for our own health care and for the healthcare of others.
| 443 |
Scion9 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:56:01am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Commie.
/
Seriously though. I think it would be a reasonable source of pride to say that we do, or we can to give access to those who cannot pay. To say it is a right isn't about pride, it is about philosophy and ideology. If being provided a service is a right that is a fundamental redefinition on what a right can be.
I think every American should read George Fitzhugh's Cannibals All, for various reasons. See if you can grok the difference between Fitzhugh's conception of rights and those of the Founding Father's.
| 444 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:56:37am |
re: #428 Sharmuta
iDub- just be careful mentioning that the healthy already pay for the sick with the current system.
So what is it we want to change and why?
| 445 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:57:01am |
re: #432 Gang of One
Is it really worth looking for? Some folks understand the difference and care, some understand the difference and don't care.
But if you insist, feel free to go hunting!
| 446 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:57:16am |
re: #431 realwest
Good, enjoying the sunny beautiful view out my window. Will have to go and do upkeep on the beauty later, but first...enjoy coffee
| 447 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:57:28am |
re: #418 legalpad
Well, why do we have to call it a "right"? Why can't we just make sure we do something because we want to, because it is the "right" thing to do? Terming it "a right" muddies the waters a bit. Technically, this sort of right would theoretically require that someone be forced to produce it for them, unlike the rights to be left alone and to be free to do things and have things. This would actually be mandating slavery, however much denial we engage in.
This is an excellent post, really. How about considering it the "right" thing to do? What's wrong with that?
(Don't agree with your last couple of sentences, but in a very techincal and pedantic sense, TBH).
| 448 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:57:41am |
re: #402 Spare O'Lake
Is it really a source of national pride to deny that a basic level of health care should be a right of every citizen, regardles of ability to pay?
Call me a fucking commie, but I don't think so.
We already provide a basic level of health care regardless of ability to pay. It's called a free clinic or the emergency room. (Unless, of course, it's the emergency room at Mrs. Obama's former employer, in which case she'll help dump the poor riffraff onto other local hospitals.)
Could there be a better way to provide basic care? I'm sure there could. But destroying the current payment system in favor of one that will inevitably result in lower reimbursements to doctors and hospitals won't help anybody. It will only tighten the supply of care.
I once had the pleasure of being a patient under socialist healthcare, and it stank.
| 449 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:58:46am |
| 450 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:59:07am |
re: #441 reine.de.tout
... The issue is purely one of insurance.
And government control... I wonder why anyone is afraid to use the word "nationalized" or "socialized" in regards to this health care proposal?
It is a least as close to Canada or British formed healthcare as anything, and those folks have no fear of those words.
| 452 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:59:38am |
re: #447 iceweasel
This is an excellent post, really. How about considering it the "right" thing to do? What's wrong with that?
(Don't agree with your last couple of sentences, but in a very techincal and pedantic sense, TBH).
Finally something we can agree on, and in this country thats EXACTLY what we do. NOBODY is denied care no matter insured or not, PLUS there are thousands of charitable avenues (churches, civic orgs, etc) that provide services)
| 453 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:59:49am |
re: #420 iceweasel
Your argument ignores an obvious point. Most of the "uninsured" are young people, uninsured by choice. At least twelve million of them are illegal aliens who shouldn't be here at all. The illegals already clog our emergency rooms, increasing wait times to eight hours. And no, they're not turned away.
So your moral argument founders on your underlying premise: that the uninsured should be forced to become insured.
| 454 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 6:59:58am |
re: #432 Gang of One
Well, I've scrolled through the more recent posts, and it looks as if an interesting debate about rights is fomenting. Reminds me of some eloquent posts by either lawhawk or buzzsaw from about a week or so back regarding the nature of so-called human rights vs, civil rights. Mebbe I should go look for them ...
Here it is, I think.
| 455 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:01:04am |
re: #422 jcm
Where did I say deny health care.
I said health care itself is not a right. Neither is air.
You do not have a right to air.
You have to breath for yourself.
NO PERSON CAN DENY YOU ACCESS TO AIR!
But also no one can obligated to provide to breath for you.
Everyone has the right to obtain, to have access to health care.
But that right to access does not extended to pounding on my door, demanding I take you to the doctor and then pay for the visit.
Air is free, health care is not.
Doesn't the "right to life" include anything more than the right to simply be left alone to ail and die in a ditch?
| 456 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:01:44am |
re: #441 reine.de.tout
JCM - also, people are not denied care.
The level of personal aggravation a person might endure from having to sit in an emergency room might be greater than what I have to endure, having insurance and being able to see a doctor at a regular office, but the bottom line is that care is not denied. I do not hear stories of thousands of US citizens dying yearly from lack of care.The issue is purely one of insurance.
Reine, this simply isn't true. People are denied care all the time, because they lack insurance-- or they have insurance, but their insurance companies leap through hoops to deny them care, or to declare some surgeries or treatments 'elective', or to declare some conditions 'pre-existing'. It just isn't right to say people aren't denied care-- because they are, all the time.
| 457 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:01:51am |
re: #436 Killian Bundy
Good morning Killian - hope you're well today! I'm not covered by medicain here in N.C. - cause I already get Medicare.
Course NO ON ONE THIS BOARD IS PAYING FOR MY HEALTH CARE. Aside from the literally hundreds of thousands of dollars I've paid into "the system" I pay an average of $700 a month for my Medicare today.
| 458 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:02:07am |
re: #425 iceweasel
And you're getting called on yours! ;-)
| 459 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:02:12am |
re: #442 realwest
Except for those of us who are sick and have already paid and are continuing to pay for our own health care and for the healthcare of others.
I do know- it's that those who are healthy still pay for their coverage whether they use it or not. This is partly why we have uninsured- young people in good health who see no need to pay for insurance they don't really need/use. The healthy are, in effect, paying for the medical treatment(s) of their fellow insurance policy holders. I certainly don't mean it to say that others don't contribute to their own health care.
| 460 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:02:46am |
re: #449 iceweasel
Sharm's on our side here.
The point is, what we actually want would best be served by a more "surgical" change to our system, not a sweeping "overhaul", which is really a mask for a bunch of special interests, and would result in a trade of negatives, at best.
| 461 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:02:49am |
re: #456 iceweasel
Reine, this simply isn't true. People are denied care all the time, because they lack insurance-- or they have insurance, but their insurance companies leap through hoops to deny them care, or to declare some surgeries or treatments 'elective', or to declare some conditions 'pre-existing'. It just isn't right to say people aren't denied care-- because they are, all the time.
And, there is something in this new health care "proposal" that will prevent that from happening in the future?
| 462 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:02:54am |
re: #455 Spare O'Lake
Under current law, without Obamacare, no emergency room can deny you treatment, even if you're flat broke.
| 463 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:03:22am |
re: #453 quickjustice
Your argument ignores an obvious point. Most of the "uninsured" are young people, uninsured by choice.
That's absolutely false. Most of the uninsured cannot afford insurance, or they lose insurance through no fault of their own-- like being laid off-- and they can't afford COBRA and don't qualify for Medicaid.
| 464 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:03:31am |
re: #446 bbuddha Indeed, enjoy the view and the coffee! Everything else can wait!
| 466 |
lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:05:22am |
If Obama were truly trying to guarantee citizen's a "Right", why would he and his side need to literally beat people into accepting it?
| 467 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:05:28am |
re: #456 iceweasel
Reine, this simply isn't true. People are denied care all the time, because they lack insurance-- or they have insurance, but their insurance companies leap through hoops to deny them care, or to declare some surgeries or treatments 'elective', or to declare some conditions 'pre-existing'. It just isn't right to say people aren't denied care-- because they are, all the time.
And what . . . in a government program, we would be guaranteed coverage for any care ordered by a doctor without review? I don't think so. Doesn't the bill have a whole section on some sort of panel that will decide what sort of care, what level of care, would be available for certain things?
| 468 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:05:36am |
re: #457 realwest
Ouch, that makes me want to up the amount I put into my HSA. I went that route because ins. doesn't pay for the type of treatment I want anyway.
| 469 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:06:45am |
re: #458 quickjustice
And you're getting called on yours! ;-)
Have you tried googling Betsy McCaughey lately? :)
She's a known liar about health care. She's been lying about it since the Clinton admin. No surprise she's resurfaced now.
| 470 |
legalpad Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:07:10am |
re: #447 iceweasel
This is an excellent post, really. How about considering it the "right" thing to do? What's wrong with that?
(Don't agree with your last couple of sentences, but in a very techincal and pedantic sense, TBH).
Right. We should produce the necessary changes in our system to insure timely diagnosis and treatment of everyone, much like we provide roads, "even" for the poor. Assigned risk to insurance companies, Earned Income Credit for medical insurance premiums. Then everyone can tap into our world-class system, not dilute it with what is, in effect, Marxism, reducing the critical timeliness of care.
| 471 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:07:46am |
re: #451 jcmWow, jcm, that's really a pretty view - but if I "woke up" to see that, I think I'd probably go back to sleep!
| 472 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:07:50am |
re: #456 iceweasel
And Weasel, what you miss is that Obama's proposed takeover is window dressing disguising the larger reality: that Medicare and Medicaid will be bankrupt soon because they are too generous to their current recipients.
Obama hopes to force the uninsured into buying insurance to increase the dollars flowing into the health care system, while reducing the level of services everyone receives dramatically. That's the only way to reduce costs in the health system. We'll be paying a lot more for a lot less.
| 473 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:07:55am |
re: #459 Sharmuta
I do know- it's that those who are healthy still pay for their coverage whether they use it or not. This is partly why we have uninsured- young people in good health who see no need to pay for insurance they don't really need/use. The healthy are, in effect, paying for the medical treatment(s) of their fellow insurance policy holders. I certainly don't mean it to say that others don't contribute to their own health care.
And when I was younger, I had insurance that I paid for, and never used for 20 years . . . and now I need coverage, and I have it. And it's in MY control to pay for the type of coverage I have and seek the type of care I wish to seek.
| 474 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:10:43am |
I don't know about other states- but here the state already has a state insurance program for low income households, provided they qualify. I think one thing that would help thousands more people is if my state loosened restrictions so more folks could qualify. Since the program is a sliding scale fee, allowing more folks with higher income into the program wouldn't be more costly because they would be participants more able to pay than lower income earners.
Just a thought.
| 475 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:10:47am |
re: #467 reine.de.tout
And what . . . in a government program, we would be guaranteed coverage for any care ordered by a doctor without review? I don't think so. Doesn't the bill have a whole section on some sort of panel that will decide what sort of care, what level of care, would be available for certain things?
The proposals (if they even go through, which is highly questionable) would prohibit shutting people out on the basis on 'pre-existing conditions', and would make it harder for private insurance to deny people coverage, or seek for ways to kick you out once you got sick-- which is what they do now.
Yes, there is a section on a supervisory panel, but that's about setting minimum acceptable amounts of coverage-- not establishing a maximum cutoff.
| 476 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:11:24am |
re: #430 vxbush
True. My apologies, scion. I can't claim to being awake here. Cats got me up before my brain did.
Maybe Erik the Red will make you some eggs and bacon. :)
Speaking of pets, I'd better go feed mine. (One advantage of having parakeets is that they tend to stay quiet until their cage is uncovered.)
| 477 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:12:13am |
Illegals 5.2 million
Legal immigrants 5 million
Earning more than $75,000 9 million
Eligible for gov't programs 9.7 million
Eligible for employer coverage 6 million
Those without affordable options 12 million
4% of the total population doesn't currently have a health care option.
We want to conduct the largest government take over of the private sector, extend the already out of control budget by even more. Obligate how many more generations to pay for it all.
How about we figure out a way to cover the 4% and not give the gov't nearly 50% of the GDP in the process, and add to the $65 Trillion in total outstanding obligations.
| 478 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:12:39am |
re: #463 iceweasel
Medicaid is the safety net for the poor. In NY, we've extended it to the middle class. And it's bankrupting the state of New York, swallowing more than 1/3 of the entire state budget. It's a failure Obama wants more of.
| 479 |
KenJen Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:12:48am |
re: #434 bbuddha
OK, That would be communist thinking, sorry can't call you names, I don't know you. :-) In a free society you DO NOT have to right to the sweat of someone elses brow without recompense. That would mean that doctors are required to work for free. Maybe you would like to work for free!?
What about this argument? Kinda playing devil's advocate here. Billions of federal dollars go to hospitals, universities, and companies in the form of research grants. The end product of the research being new vaccines, new drugs, new techniques, new medical devices, etc. American's tax dollars fund this research. Shouldn't all American's benefit from it?
| 480 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:12:56am |
re: #477 jcm
Illegals 5.2 million
Legal immigrants 5 million
Earning more than $75,000 9 million
Eligible for gov't programs 9.7 million
Eligible for employer coverage 6 million
Those without affordable options 12 million4% of the total population doesn't currently have a health care option.
We want to conduct the largest government take over of the private sector, extend the already out of control budget by even more. Obligate how many more generations to pay for it all.
How about we figure out a way to cover the 4% and not give the gov't nearly 50% of the GDP in the process, and add to the $65 Trillion in total outstanding obligations.
YES!
| 481 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:13:18am |
re: #471 realwest
Wow, jcm, that's really a pretty view - but if I "woke up" to see that, I think I'd probably go back to sleep!
The cloud layer will burn off my noon, there mountains in them clouds.
| 482 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:13:31am |
re: #472 quickjustice
And Weasel, what you miss is that Obama's proposed takeover is window dressing disguising the larger reality: that Medicare and Medicaid will be bankrupt soon because they are too generous to their current recipients.
Obama hopes to force the uninsured into buying insurance to increase the dollars flowing into the health care system, while reducing the level of services everyone receives dramatically. That's the only way to reduce costs in the health system. We'll be paying a lot more for a lot less.
That is absolutely false. I have already rebutted some of this before.
| 483 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:13:42am |
re: #473 reine.de.tout
And when I was younger, I had insurance that I paid for, and never used for 20 years . . . and now I need coverage, and I have it. And it's in MY control to pay for the type of coverage I have and seek the type of care I wish to seek.
I've had both private insurance and state coverage- and neither kept me from any doctor. The best coverage I ever had was my university insurance.
| 484 |
Gang of One Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:14:02am |
re: #454 reine.de.tout
Here it is, I think.
That's it, thank you! I went searching through buzz's and lawhawk' posts from July.
You. Are. Good.
| 485 |
Erik The Red Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:14:09am |
re: #476 lurking faith
Maybe Erik the Red will make you some eggs and bacon. :)
Speaking of pets, I'd better go feed mine. (One advantage of having parakeets is that they tend to stay quiet until their cage is uncovered.)
Hey no problem. Just let me know how you like them cooked. :)
| 486 |
Capitalistincharge Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:15:06am |
Healthcare is available to anyone who needs it, now. If you don't have insurance because you can't afford it, there are all kinds of state mandated insurance programs you can get. In Wisconsin, we have Badger Care. If you choose not to buy insurance, then you have made a personal choice and it's not my problem. If you are illegal, you can't get insurance (maybe you can, but who does?) Medicare/Medicaid takes care of the elderly and disabled. If it doesn't do it well, why don't you blame the Government, they are the ones running it. We need reform but it needs to be reform of the Government run system already in place and is a clusterfuck of epic proportions. I am sick to death of people telling me that I owe it to my lazy fucking neighbor who hasn't worked in 2 years that I need to pay more so he can be insured. He qualifies for Badger Care but the lazy ass won't even pursue it. I think we need a review of our Healthcare systems by independent think tanks staffed by non-partisan healthcare, insurance and financial experts to analyze the current system and make recommendations as to how we can contain costs and improve funding for new therapies, drugs and procedures under a free market system. Mayo and Cleveland Clinics have already given us a clue but no one noticed. Patient focused healthcare is a successful. Financially focused healthcare is not. But some people can't pull their reasonability, morality and compassion ahead of the almighty dollar.
There are ways to accomplish quality healthcare for everyone without sacrificing our freedom. Those who support this reform are taking the lazy way out on a viable solution that will fit with American values and dedication to personal freedoms.
| 487 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:15:06am |
re: #472 quickjustice
"Medicare and Medicaid will be bankrupt soon because they are too generous to their current recipients."
I beg your pardon? How do you figure that?
| 488 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:15:24am |
re: #463 iceweasel
If that were true (that the uninsured can't afford insurance), Weasel, then why the mandate? Why is Obama forcing everyone to buy health insurance? If what you're saying were true, no mandate would be necessary.
| 489 |
calcajun Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:15:33am |
Looks like what I posited yesterday might be coming to pass:
Event with Sen. McCaskill canceled for safety concerns
These events did not get "violent" until the Dems and unions decided to "get in the face" of any protester.
| 490 |
Erik The Red Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:15:38am |
re: #477 jcm
Illegals 5.2 million
Legal immigrants 5 million
Earning more than $75,000 9 million
Eligible for gov't programs 9.7 million
Eligible for employer coverage 6 million
Those without affordable options 12 million4% of the total population doesn't currently have a health care option.
We want to conduct the largest government take over of the private sector, extend the already out of control budget by even more. Obligate how many more generations to pay for it all.
How about we figure out a way to cover the 4% and not give the gov't nearly 50% of the GDP in the process, and add to the $65 Trillion in total outstanding obligations.
1000+ if I had them :)
| 491 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:16:23am |
re: #478 quickjustice
Medicaid is the safety net for the poor. In NY, we've extended it to the middle class. And it's bankrupting the state of New York, swallowing more than 1/3 of the entire state budget. It's a failure Obama wants more of.
Actually, the proposals all contain ways for fixing Medicaid and Medicare. Obama doesn't want more of either, but to fix both.
| 492 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:16:33am |
re: #482 iceweasel
Then why the mandates, Weasel? If the uninsured can't afford health insurance, why the mandates?
| 493 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:16:37am |
re: #479 KenJen
What about this argument? Kinda playing devil's advocate here. Billions of federal dollars go to hospitals, universities, and companies in the form of research grants. The end product of the research being new vaccines, new drugs, new techniques, new medical devices, etc. American's tax dollars fund this research. Shouldn't all American's benefit from it?
There are programs which provide vaccines free of charge to:
Children through 18 years of age that meet at least one of the following critera are eligible for VFC: Medicaid Eligible, Uninsured, American Indian or Alaskan Native - as defined by the Indian Health Services Act, and to
Underinsured children are eligible to receive vaccine only if they are served by a Federally Qualified Health Center, Rural Health Clinic or Office of Public Health, Parish Health Unit and 317 or state funding is available. (Undersinsured – a child whose health insurance benefit plan does not include vaccinations.)
| 494 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:17:38am |
re: #479 KenJen
What about this argument? Kinda playing devil's advocate here. Billions of federal dollars go to hospitals, universities, and companies in the form of research grants. The end product of the research being new vaccines, new drugs, new techniques, new medical devices, etc. American's tax dollars fund this research. Shouldn't all American's benefit from it?
Actually, I would overhaul that, for profit drug companies shouldn't get fed dollars
| 495 |
wahabicorridor Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:17:39am |
Good morning lizardia.
Apoligies if this has already been posted - haven't read the thread but wanted to get this out there.
Dalrymple on healthcare - Man vs Mutt
In the last few years, I have had the opportunity to compare the human and veterinary health services of Great Britain, and on the whole it is better to be a dog.
As a British dog, you get to choose (through an intermediary, I admit) your veterinarian. If you don’t like him, you can pick up your leash and go elsewhere, that very day if necessary. Any vet will see you straight away, there is no delay in such investigations as you may need, and treatment is immediate. There are no waiting lists for dogs, no operations postponed because something more important has come up, no appalling stories of dogs being made to wait for years because other dogs—or hamsters—come first.
[ ]
But what, I hear social philosophers and the shade of the late John Rawls cry, of British dogs that have no savings and cannot afford insurance? What happens to them? Are not British streets littered with canines expiring from preventable and treatable diseases, as American streets are said by Europeans to be littered with the corpses of the uninsured?
Strangely, no. This is not because there are no poor dogs; there are many. The fact is, however, that there is a charitable system of veterinary services, free at the point of delivery, for poor dogs, run by the People’s Dispensary for Sick Animals, the PDSA. This is the dog’s safety net
[ ]
Across the Channel, there is very little that can be said in favor of a health system which is the most ideologically egalitarian in the western world. It supposedly allots health care independently of the ability to pay, and solely on the basis of clinical need; but not only are differences in the health of the rich and poor in Britain among the greatest in the western world, they are as great as they were in 1948, when health care was de facto nationalized precisely to bring about equalization. There are parts of Glasgow that have almost Russian levels of premature male death. Britain’s hospitals have vastly higher rates of methicillin-resistant Staphylococcus aureus (a measurement of the cleanliness of hospitals) than those of any other European country; and survival rates from cancer and cardiovascular disease are the lowest in the western world, and lower even than among the worst-off Americans.
[ ]
The one kind of reform that America should avoid is one that is imposed uniformly upon the whole country, with a vast central bureaucracy
[ ]
And what I want, at least for that part of my time that I spend in England, is to be a dog. I also want, wherever I am, the Americans to go on paying for the great majority of the world’s progress in medical research and technological innovation by the preposterous expense of their system: for it is a truth universally acknowledged that American clinical research has long reigned supreme, so overall, the American health-care system must have been doing something right. The rest of the world soon adopts the progress, without the pain of having had to pay for it..
| 496 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:17:49am |
Two biggies in health care reform discussion that is not on the table.
Known as mandated health insurance benefit laws, they force insurers, employers and managed care companies to cover - or at least offer - specific providers or procedures not usually included in basic health care plans.
Yet the congressional leadership has slammed the door on solutions to the one driver of waste that is relatively easy to fix: the erratic, expensive and time-consuming jury-by-jury malpractice system.
Let's tweak those two areas before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
| 497 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:18:42am |
I do know if my boss is forced to provide his employees with insurance, we will go out of business. We simply can't afford it. I do like the idea of insurance co-ops, where small businesses could band together to get coverage equal to what large companies are able to provide.
| 498 |
bbuddha Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:18:50am |
Gotta go, many things to do. Everyone have a wonderful day!
| 499 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:19:07am |
re: #487 realwest
[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]
"The 800-pound gorilla is Medicare’s unfunded liability for future benefits, estimated by Medicare Trustees at $38 trillion. Medicare created this massive liability by charging current enrollees too low a price: government used the payments by working non-beneficiaries to make up the shortfall. If Medicare were a private insurance company, it would have to increase its costs by an additional trillion dollars annually to account for the interest on this debt (assuming 3% interest). But the federal government’s accounting ignores this expense.
Will government continue to rob Peter to pay Paul when it prices the new public plan? If so, an estimated 83 million people would eventually move out of private plans into a grossly underpriced Medicare, vastly increasing the liability. At $38 trillion, it already equals than two and a half times 2008 GDP.
Medicare’s cost advantages are dubious in other ways. Advocates assert that Medicare’s administrative costs are 3 percent (or 6 - 8 percent with support from other government agencies included), compared to 14 to 22 percent for private employer-sponsored health insurance (depending on the study cited), or even more for individually purchased insurance. On a per-person basis, however, Medicare’s administrative costs are higher than those of private insurance, although private plans have additional administrative expenses, such as state premium taxes, marketing, and returns for stockholders. Medicare administrative expenses appear lower as a percentage of total costs only because enrollees need, on average, more health care services than those privately insured. Expressing them as a percentage makes Medicare’s administrative costs appear lower because they are spread over a larger base of health care costs. To be sure, the average general and administrative expenses of US private insurers are far higher than those in Switzerland, where expenses average 5%; but the public plan is even worse."
| 500 |
KenJen Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:19:32am |
re: #493 reine.de.tout
There are programs which provide vaccines free of charge to:
Children through 18 years of age that meet at least one of the following critera are eligible for VFC: Medicaid Eligible, Uninsured, American Indian or Alaskan Native - as defined by the Indian Health Services Act, and to
Underinsured children are eligible to receive vaccine only if they are served by a Federally Qualified Health Center, Rural Health Clinic or Office of Public Health, Parish Health Unit and 317 or state funding is available. (Undersinsured – a child whose health insurance benefit plan does not include vaccinations.)
I was trying to think like a liberal. It's a very difficult thing to do and I guess I'm not very good at it. :)
| 501 |
Gang of One Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:19:39am |
re: #456 iceweasel
Reine, this simply isn't true. People are denied care all the time, because they lack insurance-- or they have insurance, but their insurance companies leap through hoops to deny them care, or to declare some surgeries or treatments 'elective', or to declare some conditions 'pre-existing'. It just isn't right to say people aren't denied care-- because they are, all the time.
I have a friend who was uninsured [still is], but had paid into SS while he worked in his family construction business. A few years ago, he was hospitalized several times for pancreatitis (sp?) and eventually underwent surgery to have it removed. He was never denied any care while being uninsured and broke. AFAIK, his SS bennys did not cover any of this. I believe his was called a 'charity case'.
| 502 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:20:23am |
re: #455 Spare O'Lake
Air is free, health care is not.
Doesn't the "right to life" include anything more than the right to simply be left alone to ail and die in a ditch?
Maybe I'm going off on a tangent here, but in a legal sense, you have no obligation to assist a person dying in a ditch. (Assuming you are part of the general population, at least.)
Morally and ethically, it's another matter.
However, if you begin to provide assistance, you are legally obligated to follow through and do a reasonably good job of it.
/I'm not a lawyer and this does not constitute legal advice/
| 503 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:20:53am |
re: #477 jcm
Great breakdown. It seems to me that if the Obama crew wish to impose a public option, which the more honest admit is a segue to a Single Payer, they have an obligation to point out where this model works.
Where do any actuarial studies show better outcomes than the American model? They don't cite any, because they can't.
| 504 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:20:55am |
re: #500 KenJen
I was trying to think like a liberal. It's a very difficult thing to do and I guess I'm not very good at it. :)
Me either.
| 505 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:21:01am |
re: #492 quickjustice
Then why the mandates, Weasel? If the uninsured can't afford health insurance, why the mandates?
The mandates are for the employers, Quick.
If there is a public option made available, (still up in the air), one of the idea being floated is a tax on those few people who 1) aren't poor enough to get a subsidised credit to help pay for a public option and 2) choose not to purchase any plan/are not offered health care by an employer.
The mandate applies to employers, to make certain that they do offer insurance to employees.
This is to prevent the gaming of the system by people who choose not to opt into any plan, but want to opt in once they're sick or injured.
| 506 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:21:10am |
re: #497 Sharmuta
I do know if my boss is forced to provide his employees with insurance, we will go out of business. We simply can't afford it. I do like the idea of insurance co-ops, where small businesses could band together to get coverage equal to what large companies are able to provide.
I was in one of those when i owned my own businesses back in Boston "We" formed our own "group" and went to insurers with just over a thousand employess instead of the 20-30 each of has had individually
| 507 |
Spare O'Lake Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:21:26am |
I am now kompelled to kut the grass, komrades.
Keep well.
| 508 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:21:30am |
Just heard Obama's weakly address.
The man (a) has not read the bill, (b) does not understand arithmetic.
Apparently he believes neither one matters.
If insurance companies cannot exclude preexisting conditions, cannot put a lifetime cap on annual and lifetime expenses - that is a lovely social goal, but it will raise costs hugely. That $12,000/year policy will have to increase - I dunno how much, but I'd guess at least 20%.
And how will companies differentiate their products?
I agree with the social goals, I just cannot make the numbers work.
Good luck, America.
*yes I spelled it weakly
| 509 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:22:14am |
re: #495 wahabicorridor
Good morning whahabi!
How are you and yours doing today?
| 510 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:22:33am |
re: #496 jcm
Tort reform ought to be on the table, and it isn't.
| 511 |
wahabicorridor Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:22:40am |
re: #494 bbuddha
Actually, I would overhaul that, for profit drug companies shouldn't get fed dollars
Are there any drug companies that aren't 'for profit'?
| 512 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:23:13am |
re: #505 iceweasel
The mandates are for the employers,
So if the employer was a small businessman, like I was, with 20-30 employees just about making payroll and expenses per month, now that I am mandated to pay for health insurance I have 2 options
lay people off
stay the course and go belly up in 3-4 years
| 513 |
wahabicorridor Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:24:30am |
| 514 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:24:43am |
re: #506 sattv4u2
I was in one of those when i owned my own businesses back in Boston "We" formed our own "group" and went to insurers with just over a thousand employess instead of the 20-30 each of has had individually
And I think more small businesses would do this if it was easy to do. Not sure how much work it was to find other businesses to join you, but this should be as easy as possible for any business owner to join.
| 515 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:24:51am |
re: #489 calcajun
Looks like what I posited yesterday might be coming to pass:
Event with Sen. McCaskill canceled for safety concernsThese events did not get "violent" until the Dems and unions decided to "get in the face" of any protester.
TRue , the Obama Administration unleashes the SEIU thugs to intimidate & beat up old men.
They create the violence that did not exist before & then blame the victims. Sophistry at its worst.
| 516 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:26:07am |
re: #514 Sharmuta
And I think more small businesses would do this if it was easy to do. Not sure how much work it was to find other businesses to join you, but this should be as easy as possible for any business owner to join.
We networked it two ways
Word of mouth (I knew a small operator who knew another who knew another, etc)
Also the SBA helped
| 517 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:26:49am |
re: #499 quickjustice
All I know is that I'm now paying more than $200 A MONTH on Medicare than I was paying on COBRA'd HEALTH INSURANCE. And more than $600 a month more than on private health insurance. For the exact same treatments and medications.
If that seems to you that I'm being subsidized by ANYONE I'd sure like to know by whom. Especially because by the time Obamacare goes into law, I'll be receiving either lower benefits or paying or having to pay more money for the treatments I need.
| 518 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:27:34am |
re: #503 opnion
Great breakdown. It seems to me that if the Obama crew wish to impose a public option, which the more honest admit is a segue to a Single Payer, they have an obligation to point out where this model works.
Where do any actuarial studies show better outcomes than the American model? They don't cite any, because they can't.
There are many things that could reduce the cost of health care.
Portability.
Nation wide instead of state pools.
Risk pools, like car insurance.
Mandate reform.
Tort reform.
How 'bout for all those in my breakdown who have available options be required to exercise those options? Like auto insurance in many places. They can pay their fair premiums into the pool then when they need care they're in the system and not dumped on everyone who has been paying in.
It seems to me that fixing these know areas would reduce the insurance problem, then in a couple of years we can examine the results and make additional adjustments.
According the breakdown, 4% is the issue. You don't take a car to the junk yard for a flat tire.
| 519 |
Lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:28:02am |
re: #515 opnion
The violence that has characterized the Left's effort to impose Socialized Health Care on the country should be a lesson for all of us. When a Party allows the extremists to dominate their movement, as the Democrats have, chaos is inevitable.
| 520 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:29:34am |
re: #497 Sharmuta
I do know if my boss is forced to provide his employees with insurance, we will go out of business. We simply can't afford it. I do like the idea of insurance co-ops, where small businesses could band together to get coverage equal to what large companies are able to provide.
The problem has always been that in order to form a Multiple Employer Trust there has to be a commonality, as in the same industry.
A group of employers from any business should be able to form an MET in order to get purchasing power in volume to provide medical coverage.
| 521 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:29:39am |
I'd also like to say that while I was on the insurance program offered by my state that I had access to my regular doctor as well as almost any doctor I wanted to see in the entire state. The state insurance was not restrictive- it was as good if not better than a private plan.
| 522 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:33:05am |
re: #18 HelloDare
Don't forget about all the people who pay very little in taxes. In 2007 the bottom 50% in adjusted gross income ( $32,879 and less) paid only 2.89% of the total Federal Income Tax.
Thomas Sowell is afraid that we are approaching the point of no return where those paying little or no taxes and those living on entitlements will outnumber all the other taxpayers. They will vote for massive government handouts and the America we know today will be gone.
That's the goal. (D)
| 523 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:33:11am |
re: #491 iceweasel
The only way to "fix" Medicare and Medicaid without reducing benefits is to inflict enormous price increases on EVERYONE. Obama is trying to conceal this basic fact by enlarging the pool of beneficiaries to everyone, mandating participation to increase cash flow into the system, and reducing benefits to cut costs. Based upon his desire to rescue this unsustainable Great Society system, he has no choice.
You think current denials are bad? Wait till the government starts rationing.
| 524 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:33:13am |
re: #511 wahabicorridor
Are there any drug companies that aren't 'for profit'?
Not intentionally! LOL!
BTW, thanks for the e-mail, replied to you.
| 525 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:33:57am |
re: #521 Sharmuta
I'd also like to say that while I was on the insurance program offered by my state that I had access to my regular doctor as well as almost any doctor I wanted to see in the entire state. The state insurance was not restrictive- it was as good if not better than a private plan.
No kidding. I believe you are in CA. Yes, that state plan was so good, it has helped bankrupt the state. If I have a government that wants to willy-nilly finance every and all social programs that come down the pike, and spend, spend and spend, well, everyone will LOVE the plans, the handouts the apparent unlimited money.
Until the bills comes due, and then what happens. California happens. That worked out well.
| 527 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:34:30am |
Compeletly OT, but as an unrepentant aviation geek I must post this.
Boeing 777 Engine Change In Timelapse.
| 528 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:35:48am |
re: #518 jcm
There are many things that could reduce the cost of health care.
Portability.
Nation wide instead of state pools.
Risk pools, like car insurance.
Mandate reform.
Tort reform.How 'bout for all those in my breakdown who have available options be required to exercise those options? Like auto insurance in many places. They can pay their fair premiums into the pool then when they need care they're in the system and not dumped on everyone who has been paying in.
It seems to me that fixing these know areas would reduce the insurance problem, then in a couple of years we can examine the results and make additional adjustments.
According the breakdown, 4% is the issue. You don't take a car to the junk yard for a flat tire.
Well said, this is not reform, but destruction of the Americn model in order to facilitate a government takeover so that Obama can have his vision of an egalitarin society.
FNC had a Canadian on this morning who facilitates the attainment of care for those denied care or get long delays in Canada.
One of his clients has cancer & she was given two years to live.
In the Canadian system she can't get care now, beacuse it is not considered urgent. I guess that you wait until the situation is hopeless.
Obamacare rationing deliverd to you by the same people that run the post office.
| 529 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:36:35am |
re: #523 quickjustice
Um, did you happen to just go past my #517 withut reading it?
| 530 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:37:30am |
re: #456 iceweasel
Reine, this simply isn't true. People are denied care all the time, because they lack insurance-- or they have insurance, but their insurance companies leap through hoops to deny them care, or to declare some surgeries or treatments 'elective', or to declare some conditions 'pre-existing'. It just isn't right to say people aren't denied care-- because they are, all the time. [emphasis mine]
First, a quibble: They are denied having their desired health care paid for.
Second, Medicare denies payment of care at a pretty high rate. So you're not going to fix the lack of access to cheap care issues by forcing everyone onto a similar government-run plan.
Seriously, what the hell are we going to do when we are all stuck with Medicare-like insurance? Well, the wealthier people will buy something like Medigap policies privately (if it's legal). And everybody else will wait, and wait, and suffer, and if their treatment is too expensive or they are old or disabled ("less productive citizens"), they will wait at the end of the line until they die.
Oh, and the higher-skilled doctors will tend to work as much as possible for the privately insured patients, and as little as possible for the publicly insured patients.
That is NOT an improvement on the current system.
| 531 |
Sharmuta Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:37:43am |
re: #525 Walter L. Newton
No- it wasn't California's plan. But you have to qualify. My thinking was to allow more folks to be in the pool for qualifications because it wasn't a bad plan. It's a sliding scale fee, and if one is willing to opt into on their own, I don't see why not being on welfare or having a medical need (my issue) should prevent someone.
| 532 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:38:17am |
re: #505 iceweasel
That's wrong. The mandates are for everyone, including the self-employed.
| 533 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:38:37am |
re: #484 Gang of One
That's it, thank you! I went searching through buzz's and lawhawk' posts from July.
You. Are. Good.
Use your "favorites".
| 534 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:38:46am |
re: #477 jcm
Illegals 5.2 million
Legal immigrants 5 million
Earning more than $75,000 9 million
Eligible for gov't programs 9.7 million
Eligible for employer coverage 6 million
Those without affordable options 12 million4% of the total population doesn't currently have a health care option.
We want to conduct the largest government take over of the private sector, extend the already out of control budget by even more. Obligate how many more generations to pay for it all.
How about we figure out a way to cover the 4% and not give the gov't nearly 50% of the GDP in the process, and add to the $65 Trillion in total outstanding obligations.
JCM, I think you understate the concerns Obama has with the system, the preexisting conditions, the denials of service (by crooks like even Blue Cross/Blue Shield), the costs even to people who "can afford" it, the bankruptcies, and on the provider side the doctors and hospitals who don't get reimbursed for the uninsured, the drug companies who don't sell Xanax and Lipitor to the uninsured, etc. Those who have major cost or coverage issues with their plans is probably closer to 50%, basically most of the ones with claims, and the more claims, the worse the problems.
Yeah, this is sort of an attempt to dump the unfortunate occurrence of illness onto the political and economic systems, which will never work even if Obama's unicorn brings him pots of gold every day. But I suppose we can do better than we have right now. I just wish the current bill was a step in that direction.
| 535 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:39:16am |
re: #522 FrogMarch
Thomas Sowell is afraid that we are approaching the point of no return where those paying little or no taxes and those living on entitlements will outnumber all the other taxpayers.That's the goal. (D)
That lower half of the US populace paid NO federal income tax before the civil war, and didn't pay it regularly until after the sixteenth amendment.
Perhaps, just perhaps, something wrong is being made right again?
/just a thought...
| 536 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:40:02am |
re: #519 Lincolntf
The violence that has characterized the Left's effort to impose Socialized Health Care on the country should be a lesson for all of us. When a Party allows the extremists to dominate their movement, as the Democrats have, chaos is inevitable.
There is nobody with the least little bit of rational skill could possibly believe that putting SEIU into the mix that violence would not result.
Violence did not exist at the Town Halls before.
This is the Chicago thuggery that Obama & Emanuel favor. If Obama disapproved he would say so. He is a blabber mouth on almost everything, so his silence here is very telling.
| 537 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:40:48am |
re: #517 realwest
My health insurance premiums have doubled in the past 4 years, and I don't have your medical issues. It's mostly because of the mandates inflicted by the idiots in the New York State Legislature. It's almost as if they WANT me to abandon my private health insurance.
Wait a minute . . .
| 538 |
wahabicorridor Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:41:51am |
re: #521 Sharmuta
I'd also like to say that while I was on the insurance program offered by my state that I had access to my regular doctor as well as almost any doctor I wanted to see in the entire state. The state insurance was not restrictive- it was as good if not better than a private plan.
What state?
| 539 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:41:54am |
re: #535 freetoken
That lower half of the US populace paid NO federal income tax before the civil war, and didn't pay it regularly until after the sixteenth amendment.
Perhaps, just perhaps, something wrong is being made right again?
/just a thought...
No representation without taxation.
I don't want people voting on politicians who decide our expenditures, if they don't have their money in the pot.
| 540 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:41:58am |
re: #527 jcm
Fantastic. The triple 7 is my favorite passenger jet. Nice and quiet.
| 541 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:42:27am |
Okay, I'm coming back in late (letting the floors dry), and I see iceweasel is claiming that insurance companies deny care.
Let's look at that possibility in my own case.
In the last five years the only time that care has been "denied" is when I have gotten diagnostic testing that wasn't pre-approved. However, with the doctor's assistance, we were able to get approval after the fact. No problems there.
Back when my son was in rehab after the car accident that caused his brain injury, he had a tracheotomy that required specialized care. He finally reached the date when the trache was removed, and the insurance said that he could come home as the trache was gone. This was crazy, given his vast limitations caused by his injuries. When the insurance said they were going to stop paying for care after date X, we filed an injunction in court to stop them and prevent anyone from moving my son. Because my health care was covered by my employer, we had to file in federal court. The insurance acquiesced and said they would not force my son to leave while the case was in court.
The situation was stalemated for months as we went back and forth. At one point, the case manager wrote down that we were preparing for discharge, by which we meant that in case the court case didn't go our way, we should prepare to bring him home. But the case manager didn't write that: they just wrote, "preparing for discharge." My lawyer said that we couldn't support keeping him in the facility any longer, regardless of what that meant. We therefore had no choice but to take him out of his in-patient rehab and bring him home months before he needed to. The court case continued to be stalled for months, until finally the judge called both sides in for conference and asked what was going on. He finally stated that it was unconscionable that the insurance was making noises about not paying the bill.
The insurance company cut checks to cover everything the next day.
Lessons learned:
1. Case managers can be really great or can really screw things up.
2. The courts can handle cases of medical disagreements regarding care levels and insurance coverage.
3. Some insurance companies are better than others at coverage. I had no choice of my coverage when my son was injured; I do now. Thus the free market will weed out companies that don't provide what they say they will. There is no requirement to mandate insurance coverage.
| 542 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:42:40am |
re: #537 quickjustice
LOL! Yeah, but I was on private health insurance (through my "employer") then on Cobra before I left NYState.
They must have raised rates through the roof. They did it on Medicare this year too.
| 543 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:43:38am |
re: #534 itellu3times
I think Obama's only concern is that government doesn't run the system. He want's everyone beholden to the government for health care and to the ones who "gave" health care to them.
| 544 |
Killian Bundy Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:44:15am |
Congress can already rewrite private insurance regulations to accomplish any necessary reform.
/the only legitimate reason for a "public option" is as a stalking horse for a single payer system, period
| 545 |
Taqyia2Me Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:44:23am |
re: #519 Lincolntf
The violence that has characterized the Left's effort to impose Socialized Health Care on the country should be a lesson for all of us. When a Party allows the extremists to dominate their movement, as the Democrats have, chaos is inevitable.
Chaos is their goal. They they can work to bring everything "back under control." And expect to be lauded for it.
| 546 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:45:16am |
re: #540 FrogMarch
Fantastic. The triple 7 is my favorite passenger jet. Nice and quiet.
Triple 7 with those engines is (IIRC) the only passenger certified to continue a take off if an engine fails, they have that much power. Take off rejection is a pilot option, not a requirement.
| 547 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:45:17am |
re: #537 quickjustice
My health insurance premiums have doubled in the past 4 years, and I don't have your medical issues. It's mostly because of the mandates inflicted by the idiots in the New York State Legislature. It's almost as if they WANT me to abandon my private health insurance.
Wait a minute . . .
Hmm.
My HSA policy went up 8% last year and 25% this year, before that I was carrying a full policy that went up ... I forget, but a lot, the previous two years. I made basically no claims on it at all, I'm in the cheapest "tier". Of course, somewhere in that period I got a little older, too, but I believe the 8%/25% are not age-related.
| 548 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:45:51am |
re: #531 Sharmuta
No- it wasn't California's plan. But you have to qualify. My thinking was to allow more folks to be in the pool for qualifications because it wasn't a bad plan. It's a sliding scale fee, and if one is willing to opt into on their own, I don't see why not being on welfare or having a medical need (my issue) should prevent someone.
I see. Agree in principle.
But I suppose my point stands. California is a prime example of government funded social programs out of control, and we've seen what happens.
| 549 |
Lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:46:21am |
re: #536 opnion
Yuo. It really is amazing to see how far we've fallen as a reasonable society in Obama's short tenure. Speech is met with beatings, requests for information are considered extremism, legislators are openly refusing to speak to their constituents, etc.
When the book is finally written on the failure of the effort to Socialize medicine in America (fingers crossed), then these last couple days will figure prominently in it.
| 550 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:46:22am |
re: #539 itellu3times
People are taxed everyday in many ways. Some are direct, some are indirect.
Around here, people are paying over 10% in sales tax regardless of income. I pay tax on my electric bills... I pay tax on my internet bill.
Indirectly, everything bought by everybody from a company is taxed since businesses pass along taxes into the prices of their goods and services.
Yes, even illegal aliens pay tax.
| 551 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:46:45am |
More from Regina Herzlinger, a health care economist and Professor at Harvard Business School, unlike the flaks Weasel is quoting:
"Medicare and Medicaid’s regulatory power also enables them to underpay providers by an estimated $90 billion dollars compared to private insurers. Currently, private insurers pay higher prices to take up the slack. But if the market were entirely composed of public insurers, who would pay providers adequately? Faced with reduced pay prospects, all too many doctors, nurses, and other professionals would retire early or, because they are enormously talented people, pursue other occupations. The looming doctor shortage could become a national crisis as prospective physicians, whose education requires many to incur massive debt, would reluctantly opt for occupations where the government does not control their livelihoods.
The Democrats’ health care reform will likely eventually require drastic rationing of health care for the sick to control costs. Consider the patients in other public plans - Canadians who may wait a year or longer to get radiation therapy or the millions of Britonsof Britons who wait to get into a hospital or have an outpatient procedure.
Expanding the number of people with health insurance? Of course.
But not through a mispriced “public plan.”
That sort of “reform” will maim either our economy or our health, and most likely, both."
| 552 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:48:27am |
re: #541 vxbush
Okay, I'm coming back in late (letting the floors dry), and I see iceweasel is claiming that insurance companies deny care.
Let's look at that possibility in my own case.
In the last five years the only time that care has been "denied" is when I have gotten diagnostic testing that wasn't pre-approved. However, with the doctor's assistance, we were able to get approval after the fact. No problems there.
Back when my son was in rehab after the car accident that caused his brain injury, he had a tracheotomy that required specialized care. He finally reached the date when the trache was removed, and the insurance said that he could come home as the trache was gone. This was crazy, given his vast limitations caused by his injuries. When the insurance said they were going to stop paying for care after date X, we filed an injunction in court to stop them and prevent anyone from moving my son. Because my health care was covered by my employer, we had to file in federal court. The insurance acquiesced and said they would not force my son to leave while the case was in court.
The situation was stalemated for months as we went back and forth. At one point, the case manager wrote down that we were preparing for discharge, by which we meant that in case the court case didn't go our way, we should prepare to bring him home. But the case manager didn't write that: they just wrote, "preparing for discharge." My lawyer said that we couldn't support keeping him in the facility any longer, regardless of what that meant. We therefore had no choice but to take him out of his in-patient rehab and bring him home months before he needed to. The court case continued to be stalled for months, until finally the judge called both sides in for conference and asked what was going on. He finally stated that it was unconscionable that the insurance was making noises about not paying the bill.
The insurance company cut checks to cover everything the next day.
Lessons learned:
1. Case managers can be really great or can really screw things up.
2. The courts can handle cases of medical disagreements regarding care levels and insurance coverage.
3. Some insurance companies are better than others at coverage. I had no choice of my coverage when my son was injured; I do now. Thus the free market will weed out companies that don't provide what they say they will. There is no requirement to mandate insurance coverage.
Thae vast majority of larger employers are self-insured. They fund their own claims daily. THey hite an insurance compant or a third party administrator to pay the claims.
A utilization management entity either eindependent or part of the payer evaluates medical necessity. The employer can override anything.
The UR company does an evaliation & the employer can use his money any way that he sees fit.
| 554 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:50:37am |
re: #553 wahabicorridor
[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]
| 555 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:50:55am |
re: #549 Lincolntf
Yuo. It really is amazing to see how far we've fallen as a reasonable society in Obama's short tenure. Speech is met with beatings, requests for information are considered extremism, legislators are openly refusing to speak to their constituents, etc.
When the book is finally written on the failure of the effort to Socialize medicine in America (fingers crossed), then these last couple days will figure prominently in it.
The Dear Leader is really a demogouge. He demonizes the opposition.
| 556 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:23am |
re: #550 freetoken
People are taxed everyday in many ways. Some are direct, some are indirect.
Around here, people are paying over 10% in sales tax regardless of income. I pay tax on my electric bills... I pay tax on my internet bill.
Indirectly, everything bought by everybody from a company is taxed since businesses pass along taxes into the prices of their goods and services.
Yes, even illegal aliens pay tax.
And (almost) everyone pays social security tax, even if they don't pay income tax. Good point.
Actually, I suppose I'm more on that side - I support merging the income and SSN taxes, and letting the poor pay less on the combination than they do now. But I still dont like the politics of having half the population even think they are not paying income taxes.
Or do you think we should shift even more heavily to "value-added tax" on consumption, as in Europe?
| 557 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:33am |
re: #535 freetoken
That lower half of the US populace paid NO federal income tax before the civil war, and didn't pay it regularly until after the sixteenth amendment.
Perhaps, just perhaps, something wrong is being made right again?
/just a thought...
It's about net taxes payers vs net tax receivers. At some point the net tax receivers will far out number the net tax payers. Then, we will never be able to rid of the ruling political class that dutifully adds entitlements to every aspect of our lives. Voting in more goodies and largess will be how the US does business. It is my opinion that everyone should pay at least some tax.
You do know that once the 'evil Bush tax cuts for the rich" expire, that folks on the lowest income level will be added back in to the tax rolls. Hope and change.
| 558 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:35am |
re: #551 quickjustice
More from Regina Herzlinger, a health care economist and Professor at Harvard Business School, unlike the flaks Weasel is quoting:
"Medicare and Medicaid’s regulatory power also enables them to underpay providers by an estimated $90 billion dollars compared to private insurers. Currently, private insurers pay higher prices to take up the slack. But if the market were entirely composed of public insurers, who would pay providers adequately? Faced with reduced pay prospects, all too many doctors, nurses, and other professionals would retire early or, because they are enormously talented people, pursue other occupations. The looming doctor shortage could become a national crisis as prospective physicians, whose education requires many to incur massive debt, would reluctantly opt for occupations where the government does not control their livelihoods.
The Democrats’ health care reform will likely eventually require drastic rationing of health care for the sick to control costs. Consider the patients in other public plans - Canadians who may wait a year or longer to get radiation therapy or the millions of Britonsof Britons who wait to get into a hospital or have an outpatient procedure.
Expanding the number of people with health insurance? Of course.
But not through a mispriced “public plan.”
That sort of “reform” will maim either our economy or our health, and most likely, both."
My wife is looking into possibly starting a medical tourism venture if Obamacare is enacted. She's working with contacts in Panama. The money will go somewhere, right?
| 559 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:44am |
re: #550 freetoken
Yes, even illegal aliens pay tax
And thats why I support Rep John Linders version of the Fair Tax.
Eliminates the IRS and "rich peoples loopholes" (as the poor always claim)
Everyone kicks in (even illegals, as you point out)
| 560 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:45am |
re: #505 iceweasel
The mandates are for the employers, Quick.
If there is a public option made available, (still up in the air), one of the idea being floated is a tax on those few people who 1) aren't poor enough to get a subsidised credit to help pay for a public option and 2) choose not to purchase any plan/are not offered health care by an employer.
The mandate applies to employers, to make certain that they do offer insurance to employees.
This is to prevent the gaming of the system by people who choose not to opt into any plan, but want to opt in once they're sick or injured.
Wait - you say that one of the ideas is that people who get WORSE benefits from their employers are going to be slapped with a fucking SURTAX? Because those worse-compensated employees are somehow "gaming the system"?
That's not just fucked up. That's evil.
| 561 |
reine.de.tout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:51:58am |
re: #551 quickjustice
More from Regina Herzlinger, a health care economist and Professor at Harvard Business School, unlike the flaks Weasel is quoting:
"Medicare and Medicaid’s regulatory power also enables them to underpay providers by an estimated $90 billion dollars compared to private insurers. Currently, private insurers pay higher prices to take up the slack. But if the market were entirely composed of public insurers, who would pay providers adequately? Faced with reduced pay prospects, all too many doctors, nurses, and other professionals would retire early or, because they are enormously talented people, pursue other occupations. The looming doctor shortage could become a national crisis as prospective physicians, whose education requires many to incur massive debt, would reluctantly opt for occupations where the government does not control their livelihoods.
The Democrats’ health care reform will likely eventually require drastic rationing of health care for the sick to control costs. Consider the patients in other public plans - Canadians who may wait a year or longer to get radiation therapy or the millions of Britonsof Britons who wait to get into a hospital or have an outpatient procedure.
Expanding the number of people with health insurance? Of course.
But not through a mispriced “public plan.”
That sort of “reform” will maim either our economy or our health, and most likely, both."
There are some who might say doctors are overcompensated.
But we forget just how long it takes a person to become an independently practicing physician. A friend of ours was 30 years old before he finished with school, residency, etc., and could become a fully practicing physician. Meanwhile, I had been in the workforce for eight years already, almost a third of the time it would take me to become eligible to retire.
Then there's the cost of operating a practice, what with a facility, equipment, services, nurses and technicians, etc. That costs a lot of money.
| 562 |
Taqyia2Me Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:52:29am |
re: #555 opnion
The Dear Leader is really a demogouge. He demonizes the opposition.
Quite vituperative, to say the least.
| 563 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:52:38am |
re: #552 opnion
Thae vast majority of larger employers are self-insured. They fund their own claims daily. THey hite an insurance compant or a third party administrator to pay the claims.
A utilization management entity either eindependent or part of the payer evaluates medical necessity. The employer can override anything.
The UR company does an evaliation & the employer can use his money any way that he sees fit.
Am I to understand that you would like that same option for smaller companies? If so, I can appreciate your position. More personal, localized control seems like the better solution.
| 564 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:52:42am |
re: #403 iceweasel
Not so.
All of our protections involve some obligation, if only the obligation of tolerance, on others. Our rights always impose an obligation on others, namely, at minimum, that others not infringe upon those rights.
'allow you to exercise your right' MEANS not infringing on your rights. A right to speech means I allow you to speak. It doesn't mean I have to provide you with the forum in which to present your views.
| 565 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:53:15am |
re: #546 jcm
Triple 7 with those engines is (IIRC) the only passenger certified to continue a take off if an engine fails, they have that much power. Take off rejection is a pilot option, not a requirement.
Cool. I'd love to tour the Boeing facility some day. I'm not a mechanic or expert, but I, like you, am fascinated with aircraft.
| 566 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:53:33am |
Must be a slow news day. I've never seen the front page of Drudge so empty.
| 567 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:54:08am |
re: #541 vxbush
First, sympathies for your son, you and your family.
Second, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from your story.
Even with the whole thing in the courts, which can't improve anybody's blood pressure (except the attorney's), you still had a partial denial of service and had to bring your son home early. This is the current system. Do we want to improve it, or are we scared that any change will only make it worse?
| 568 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:54:17am |
re: #564 right_wing2
'allow you to exercise your right' MEANS not infringing on your rights. A right to speech means I allow you to speak. It doesn't mean I have to provide you with the forum in which to present your views.
It also means you have the RIGHT to speak and I have the RIGHT not to listen
Mandating the "right" for everyone to have insurance means someone is denied the "right" NOT to pay
| 569 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:54:34am |
re: #550 freetoken
Excellent comment. Can you pronounce V.A.T.? I knew you could!
| 570 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:55:12am |
re: #566 Killgore Trout
Must be a slow news day. I've never seen the front page of Drudge so empty.
Matt is on to you and has implemented a sekret "special" page for you, KT. :)
| 571 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:55:23am |
re: #566 Killgore Trout
Must be a slow news day. I've never seen the front page of Drudge so empty.
Congress starts a break
No (thank God) natuarl disasters
No (thank God) "man caused" disasters
| 572 |
wahabicorridor Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:56:23am |
re: #554 quickjustice
[Link: www.manhattan-institute.org...]
thank you, bookmarked
off to make fried green tomatoes
| 573 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:57:26am |
re: #563 vxbush
Am I to understand that you would like that same option for smaller companies? If so, I can appreciate your position. More personal, localized control seems like the better solution.
Smaller employers typically can't assume the risk to self fund
They would need to buy stop loss , to cap their risk & there is not enough volume in a small group to make that viable.
They fully insure & are community rated . That means that claims are on the nickle of the insurer & they can access mediical necessity , & while there is an appeals process, the employer can't override.
| 574 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:57:37am |
Houston Taliban supporter gets 4½ years in prison
Senior U.S. District Judge Ewing Werlein sentenced Williams to 4½ years in prison, most of which he already has served, and a $5,000 fine. Williams pleaded guilty to a conspiracy charge in which he admitted to paramilitary training and donating money to the Taliban.A former Rice University engineering technician who was enrolled at the University of Houston-Downtown in 2006 when he was charged, Williams, 36, said Friday that he will be more careful about choosing his friends.
| 576 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:58:06am |
| 577 |
MandyManners Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:58:19am |
re: #571 sattv4u2
Congress starts a break
No (thank God) natuarl disasters
No (thank God) "man caused" disasters
Jihadi-locks is dead.
| 578 |
vxbush Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:58:29am |
re: #567 itellu3times
First, sympathies for your son, you and your family.
Second, I'm not sure what conclusions to draw from your story.
Even with the whole thing in the courts, which can't improve anybody's blood pressure (except the attorney's), you still had a partial denial of service and had to bring your son home early. This is the current system. Do we want to improve it, or are we scared that any change will only make it worse?
My problem before is that I had no choice of health care when my son was injured. I was shoehorned into a particular policy provided by my employer. That's different now, and I prefer the fact that I have a choice of providers and that freedom allows me to choose what level of healthcare is appropriate for me and my family.
What is coming down and being planned now is NO CHOICE, or very minimal choice. Ice Weasel, I'm sure you'll disagree with me, but everything I've seen so far is that any bill being considered is going to reduce the number of choices available to me. That's the wrong response.
| 579 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:58:40am |
re: #566 Killgore Trout
Must be a slow news day. I've never seen the front page of Drudge so empty.
Are you speaking of ASCII characters, or content?
| 580 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:58:43am |
re: #571 sattv4u2
Congress starts a break
No (thank God) natuarl disasters
No (thank God) "man caused" disasters
Hmmm, congress on break no disasters...
Coincidence?
| 581 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:59:30am |
re: #579 freetoken
Are you speaking of ASCII characters, or content?
Thanks, wiping coffee off my screen...
ROFL!
| 582 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 7:59:45am |
re: #556 itellu3times
A VAT (national sales tax) is next on Obama's list. It'll come in at 25%, in addition to what we're already paying.
| 583 |
sattv4u2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:00:36am |
Oh K Kiddies
The TO DO list is giving me dirty looks!
Months ago wifey and I decided not to participate in this "recession, so off to spend money
| 584 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:00:51am |
re: #578 vxbush
It's not clear to me how any company can offer insurance under this bill.
Maybe that's just bad press analysis, and heck, I'm Joe Public, why should I understand the wholesale side of it, hey? But actually, if anything it seems to me the public response by the insurance companies has been muted. So maybe we don't really know what is going on at all.
| 585 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:02:03am |
re: #582 quickjustice
A VAT (national sales tax) is next on Obama's list. It'll come in at 25%, in addition to what we're already paying.
We already have the highest corporate tax rates.
How to to kill an economy in 4 easy steps.
Porkzilla.
Crap-n-Fraud.
Health (S)care take over.
VAT
| 586 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:02:59am |
re: #482 iceweasel
That is absolutely false. I have already rebutted some of this before.
And as Uncle Barack undercuts the insurance industry, more & more people will be forced into government run care. Private employers will be able to save money be ending their plans and letting their employees get stuck with whatever the government 'mandates'. What about the line in the bill which, after Jan 1 of the following year, would prohibit any non government insurance from being sold? (paraphrasing there, I think it was on page 16 of the bill that Barack never read)
| 587 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:03:01am |
re: #561 reine.de.tout
Good morning reine - and what often goes unstated in the health care debate is that a considerable number of doctors NOW don't see Medicare patients AT ALL.
Example: when we first moved down to N.C., I needed to get a referral from a primary care physician (an internist) to go see an oncologist, according to my insurance company. I naturally, went the opposite route, found a good oncologist and saw him and he gave me the name of an internist whom I called later that day and had an appointment with three days later for a physcial.
I also tried to get my mom scheduled for a physcial and was told that the same internist could only see a medicare patient in 7 months.When I asked suppose she needs a doctor NOW - I was told to take her to an ER or an "Urgent Care Facility" as they take all Medicare patients.
| 588 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:03:46am |
re: #579 freetoken
Are you speaking of ASCII characters, or content?
He usually has 2-3 times more stories linked.
| 589 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:04:23am |
re: #558 Pianobuff
Once the health care system is totally government-controlled (it's now a hybrid), the decisions made to grant or deny care will be political. You get denied treatment, you camp out on your congressman's steps.
Local hospitals and doctors will become political players as well. I can see medical tourism that hurts your local hospital being made illegal.
| 590 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:04:41am |
Sonia Sotomayor just sworn in. We now have a wise Latina.
After taking the oath she looked at Chief Justice Roberts & said, "I'm smarter than you chump!" Ok, I made the last part up.
| 591 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:05:39am |
re: #575 jcm
LOL! If I wasn't a non-drinking alcoholic, that's exactly what I'd mean!
| 592 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:05:43am |
re: #590 opnion
Sonia Sotomayor just sworn in. We now have a wise Latina.
After taking the oath she looked at Chief Justice Roberts & said, "I'm smarter than you chump!" Ok, I made the last part up.
Press one to hear the swearing in in Spanish, press two to hear the swearing in in English.:)
///
| 593 |
theuglydougling Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:05:56am |
I love how lefties always say that you can't legislate morality or 'force your morals on me,' but can so easily turn around and lecture us on morals when it's one of their own pet projects (such as universal healthcare) being scrutinized.
| 594 |
freetoken Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:06:00am |
re: #557 FrogMarch
It's about net taxes payers vs net tax receivers.
Yes... I understand. But please realize, that has always been true to some extent. Indeed, one might even say that is the whole intent of an income tax to begin with.
Even if a lower income person pays some nominal tax every year, they will essentially be "net tax receivers" as the value of the goods and services will be far greater than what they paid.
That is the whole idea of a progressive tax - that there is an increased flow of wealth downwards (or, at least a slower flow of wealth upwards.)
We are now though arguing a bit off topic (if the various health care proposals are the topic.)
It seems to me that there is enough disagreement in Congress (including the Senate) to insure that there will be no swift passage of a health care bill, and what does get passed will not necessarily be what was originally proposed.
I for one primarily care about the quality of health services I get, not the quantity. As long as I can pick my own health care providers and can choose which services I wish to accept or turn down, I do not care if I end up paying a bit for someone else.
| 595 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:06:46am |
re: #590 opnion
Bienvenido a D.C. From a conservative's standpoint, she's the best we could have expected from Obama.
| 596 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:07:09am |
re: #526 quickjustice
The Good Samaritan?
Legally, you mean? Protected from liability if (a) they act reasonably - do the things everyone would know you should do and don't do anything that a reasonable person would think was stupid or likely to make things worse; and (b) they follow through at least until more qualified help appears.
Part (b) is because they may have deterred assistance from some other responsible person. So if you start to help somebody, you are obligated to continue to help until professional help appears.
/still not a lawyer, still not official legal advice :) /
| 597 |
MandyManners Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:08:14am |
Tuesday.
Ehsanul Islam Sadequee seemed nervous as he approached the podium at the center of the courtroom. He opened with a quick prayer, then told the jury he usually goes by the nickname Shifa, which means "cure."
Only then did he launch into the heart of his defense, saying his online talk did not amount to anything.
"There was a lot of talk about doing a lot of things," he said. "But no one in fact did anything."
Sadequee faces up to 60 years in prison on four counts that he conspired to aid overseas terror groups, sent homemade videos of Washington landmarks to overseas contacts and went to Bangladesh to pursue "violent jihad."
SNIP
He said he went to Bangladesh to get married and had no ulterior motive. He questioned accusations that he helped mastermind a plot.
"If everything is a question mark, can there be a plan?"
And then he abruptly stopped talking.
"I'm not a lawyer," he said, with a slight shrug. "Basically, this is my opening."
| 598 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:08:52am |
And hey Y'ALL - I don't even see why we're debating this Health Care Bill passed by the House. Senators Reid and Schumer have already said that with or without Republican support, they are going to make that health care bill into a law for Obama to sign.
And President Obama said the same thing - We'd like to have bi-partisan support, but if the Republicans don't support health care reform, we're going to pass it anyway.
| 599 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:08:55am |
re: #535 freetoken
That lower half of the US populace paid NO federal income tax before the civil war, and didn't pay it regularly until after the sixteenth amendment.
Perhaps, just perhaps, something wrong is being made right again?
/just a thought...
At that time, though (Civil War/pre 16th Amendment), there weren't millions of people relying on the government for their sustenance, either.
"Those who rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul"
| 600 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:09:25am |
re: #589 quickjustice
Once the health care system is totally government-controlled (it's now a hybrid), the decisions made to grant or deny care will be political. You get denied treatment, you camp out on your congressman's steps.
Local hospitals and doctors will become political players as well. I can see medical tourism that hurts your local hospital being made illegal.
She would have to see how this pans out before pulling the trigger obviously. Do you think the government could literally forbid out-of-country procedures?
| 601 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:09:51am |
re: #595 quickjustice
Bienvenido a D.C. From a conservative's standpoint, she's the best we could have expected from Obama.
Yeah, she's not bad. Presidents typically don't nominate the most qualified jurist.
FNC now has the President of the Natl. Hispanic Bar Association on.
I 'll bet that she is followed by the President of the Natl. Gringo Bar Assoc.
| 602 |
MandyManners Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:11:11am |
How manyJihad Johnnys are being prosecuted in state courts not receiving national press coverage?
| 603 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:12:43am |
re: #565 FrogMarch
Cool. I'd love to tour the Boeing facility some day. I'm not a mechanic or expert, but I, like you, am fascinated with aircraft.
If you come to Boeing Wichita, let me know- we'll have a beer!
| 604 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:12:50am |
re: #600 Pianobuff
She would have to see how this pans out before pulling the trigger obviously. Do you think the government could literally forbid out-of-country procedures?
I think they may *require* out-of-country procedures.
Get ready to fly to Mumbai for your bypass.
| 605 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:13:00am |
re: #560 lurking faith
I think the remark about "gaming the system" applied to people who opt out of the health care plan at work to save the money but then want to opt in as soon as they need it. Kind of like buying life insurance after the fact. And that has to be considered in the whole equation, but I don't think that is the main reason they want to tax the people who opt out.
One major reason people opt out of health care is because they are already covered by their spouse's plan, and there can be a cost penalty for the family if there are two plans. It sounds crazy but this happened to my family years back. Since both my wife and my plan covered the kids we had to pay off both deductibles before either plan kicked in. We would have been better off with one or the other but not both.
Then when I went to opt out of my health care and take the cash, they gave me $350. That for opting out of the health care plan the company claimed was costing them $4,000. Their explanation was the cash payout was so low because they were "afraid" too many people would opt out and leave their families uncovered. yeah right.
| 606 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:13:14am |
re: #594 freetoken
I for one primarily care about the quality of health services I get, not the quantity. As long as I can pick my own health care providers and can choose which services I wish to accept or turn down, I do not care if I end up paying a bit for someone else.
I care about medical innovation, quality, access and costs. No one will ever convince me that he government can produce or provide any of those in an adequate manner that will be beneficial to a vast majority of Americans.
| 607 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:13:56am |
re: #596 lurking faith
The Good Samaritan is a moral story about a non-religious person treating an injured person with compassion whom religious people ignored (by literally walking on the other side of the road to avoid him). And the moral question: As between the "non-religious" person who acted with compassion and the "religious" people who did not, who was doing the will of G-d?
| 608 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:14:07am |
BHO is now whining that his health plan opponents are trying to use disinformation. How would he know what is true or not, he is not familiar with the House Bill.
This may be our most lazy , narccisstic President ever.
THe guy is always off decompressing somewhere.
| 609 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:06am |
re: #608 opnion
BHO is now whining that his health plan opponents are trying to use disinformation. How would he know what is true or not, he is not familiar with the House Bill.
This may be our most lazy , narccisstic President ever.
THe guy is always off decompressing somewhere.
This is arguably the first time in his life that he could be facing a serious failure. Most people learn about failure when they are younger and it makes them strong in dealing with adversity later.
It could get ugly. Very ugly.
| 610 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:08am |
re: #598 realwest
What's up soldier? How are you feeling today?
| 611 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:14am |
re: #600 Pianobuff
Yes, on grounds it hurts local health care providers by underpricing them. I happen to think medical tourism could be a great way to cut health care costs, but your congressman wants to keep the doors of your local hospital open, even if the care it provides stinks.
| 612 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:21am |
| 613 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:24am |
re: #605 Mich-again
I think the remark about "gaming the system" applied to people who opt out of the health care plan at work to save the money but then want to opt in as soon as they need it. Kind of like buying life insurance after the fact.
Yes. That's what it refers to, and not the kind of situation you went on to describe.
| 614 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:16:33am |
re: #608 opnion
BHO is now whining that his health plan opponents are trying to use disinformation. How would he know what is true or not, he is not familiar with the House Bill.
This may be our most lazy , narccisstic President ever.
THe guy is always off decompressing somewhere.
Your comment has been reported to flag@whitehouse.gov.
Pack your bags for FEMA camp.
///
| 615 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:17:46am |
Morning everyone.
Is anyone else noticing the spread of the "teabagger" meme? CBS News was using it the other day. I know protest rallies aren't exactly popular around here, but dismissing real Americans with offensive nicknames like that can't be helpful to the vaunted "rational discourse."
| 616 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:18:58am |
re: #609 Pianobuff
As Peggy Noonan notes, it's already getting ugly, because people are terrified of what Obama proposes, and Obama and his union allies are heating things up even further by sending in thugs to attack protesters. I predict, without desiring, escalation and further violence.
| 617 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:19:14am |
re: #611 quickjustice
Yes, on grounds it hurts local health care providers by underpricing them. I happen to think medical tourism could be a great way to cut health care costs, but your congressman wants to keep the doors of your local hospital open, even if the care it provides stinks.
In her research/discussions, anticipated availability and setting of services would also be driving the demand out of the country.
| 618 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:19:30am |
re: #613 iceweasel
Yes. That's what it refers to, and not the kind of situation you went on to describe.
Perhaps but by using that "gaming the system" comment, it paints everyone who wants to opt out of their health care plan as some kind of sneaky conniving low life. Which is par for the course. Demonize the opposition.
| 619 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:21:01am |
re: #609 Pianobuff
This is arguably the first time in his life that he could be facing a serious failure. Most people learn about failure when they are younger and it makes them strong in dealing with adversity later.
It could get ugly. Very ugly.
I truly believe that failures in his life were viewed as success.
According to him he spent high school stoned & drunk with poor grades.
No problem, academic scholarship to college. Hey he deserved it.
President of Harvard Law Review & submitted no articles. Who needs articles?
Community Organizer , a fast track to the White House. Hey he is entitled & if you hurt his feelings, the state run media will screw you.
This is some serious arrested development in the White House!
| 621 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:22:14am |
re: #610 opnion
Howdy opnion - I'm feeling ok thanks, how's about yourself, how are you doing?
| 622 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:22:43am |
re: #615 Athens Runaway
Morning everyone.
Is anyone else noticing the spread of the "teabagger" meme? CBS News was using it the other day. I know protest rallies aren't exactly popular around here, but dismissing real Americans with offensive nicknames like that can't be helpful to the vaunted "rational discourse."
Well, pretending a completely fabricated, astroturfed and corporate supported 'movement' is 'grassroots', and encouraging them to scream, tell chant and distrupt townhalls, is also not conducive to democracy or discourse.
The fact that this 'grass roots movement' was too dumb to know that teabagging was sexual slang, and too silly to run it through google, is just icing on the cake. So to speak.
| 623 |
ladycatnip Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:22:45am |
#608 opnion
BHO is now whining that his health plan opponents are trying to use disinformation. How would he know what is true or not, he is not familiar with the House Bill.
The House doesn't even know what's in the House Bill.
| 624 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:22:52am |
re: #614 jcm
Your comment has been reported to flag@whitehouse.gov.
Pack your bags for FEMA camp.
///
Oh, I'm screwed anyway. A little reeducation & I will be as empty headed as many of his supporters.
| 625 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:23:59am |
re: #615 Athens Runaway
Morning everyone.
Is anyone else noticing the spread of the "teabagger" meme? CBS News was using it the other day. I know protest rallies aren't exactly popular around here, but dismissing real Americans with offensive nicknames like that can't be helpful to the vaunted "rational discourse."
What I don't think anyone has a perfect read on his how many of these grass-roots folks are "average Americans" in a typically centrist sort of way. The left is banking that there are few that fall into this category and those that do can easily be name-called/shamed into submission and obedience. If they have miscalculated it could mean a visible jolt to the right. If they are right then their strategy will have worked.
Either way, the Dems have supermajorities, so I don't see what all of the whining is about. There's little Republicans can do to stop the legislation, despite all of the handwaving from D's.
| 626 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:24:51am |
re: #618 Mich-again
Perhaps but by using that "gaming the system" comment, it paints everyone who wants to opt out of their health care plan as some kind of sneaky conniving low life. Which is par for the course. Demonize the opposition.
No, I was specifically referring to those who ARE trying to game the system, in the way you described. By not enrolling until injured or ill.
I'm not apologising for your misreading, and it is, in fact, you who are demonising the opposition at this moment.
| 627 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:25:02am |
re: #622 iceweasel
Well, pretending a completely fabricated, astroturfed and corporate supported 'movement' is 'grassroots', and encouraging them to scream, tell chant and distrupt townhalls, is also not conducive to democracy or discourse.
The fact that this 'grass roots movement' was too dumb to know that teabagging was sexual slang, and too silly to run it through google, is just icing on the cake. So to speak.
Got your talking points, huh? What proof is there that there are any corporations behind any of this? That is just an unfounded opnion.
| 628 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:25:04am |
Where will the Canadians go for emergency operations after Obama Inc. gets done?
| 629 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:25:13am |
re: #613 iceweasel
Yes. That's what it refers to, and not the kind of situation you went on to describe.
10 years ago WA state insurance commission Deborah Senn mandated pre-existing conditions be covered. That decision wreaked insurance in WA. We now only have 3 or 4 providers, and they still lose money in WA, and individual policies are virtually impossible to get.
| 630 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:25:52am |
re: #622 iceweasel
Well, pretending a completely fabricated, astroturfed and corporate supported 'movement' is 'grassroots', and encouraging them to scream, tell chant and distrupt townhalls, is also not conducive to democracy or discourse.
Ah, I see. "Brooks Brothers" protestors, as Nancy Pelosi calls them. No way that real people are upset. Nuh-uh. They're all shills. Real Americans love the idea, it's the health care companies who hate it!
The fact that this 'grass roots movement' was too dumb to know that teabagging was sexual slang, and too silly to run it through google, is just icing on the cake. So to speak.
The "teabagging" meme was started by Rachael Maddow and Anderson Cooper. Not a grassroots movement with scary air quotes around it.
| 631 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:25:56am |
re: #624 opnion
Oh, I'm screwed anyway. A little reeducation & I will be as empty headed as many of his supporters.
That's the spirit!
;-P
| 632 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:26:59am |
re: #627 opnion
Got your talking points, huh? What proof is there that there are any corporations behind any of this? That is just an unfounded opnion.
I didn't watch it, but heard that ABC had a report on the townhalls and said that they are authentic. IIRC, Claire McCaskill has also said the same thing.
| 633 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:28:06am |
re: #631 jcm
That's the spirit!
;-P
Right on! I look at the bright side, I will well versed in Saul Alinsky before I get set free. Yeah baby!
| 634 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:28:07am |
re: #632 Pianobuff
ABC News and Claire McCaskill must be on the take too. Vast Right-Wing Nutter Conspiracy.
| 635 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:29:04am |
re: #632 Pianobuff
I didn't watch it, but heard that ABC had a report on the townhalls and said that they are authentic. IIRC, Claire McCaskill has also said the same thing.
I posted something to that effect yesterday. ABC reporter found all the attendees were local to the area, and I guess he didn't detect any further organization or sponsorships. There was no discussion of their political leanings other than re healthcare.
| 636 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:29:33am |
re: #615 Athens Runaway
Hey, c'mon, give 'em a break! The Center-Right has never really been known to publically protest anything.
It's been almost the exclusive province of the Left or if you prefer, center-left. And they've been caught unawares by the protests THAT ARE GROWNING in size and frequency.
Who knew that the Center-Right would actually, you know, do anything more than write to their congresscritters or the POTUS or their local newspaper?
The MSM is playing catch up and unfortunately for them they are following the lead provided by the Democrats and the Dems aren't used to it either!
| 637 |
Gang of One Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:29:59am |
| 638 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:30:00am |
| 639 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:30:09am |
re: #634 Athens Runaway
ABC News and Claire McCaskill must be on the take too. Vast Right-Wing Nutter Conspiracy.
| 640 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:30:19am |
re: #626 iceweasel
No, I was specifically referring to those who ARE trying to game the system, in the way you described. By not enrolling until injured or ill.
I'm not apologising for your misreading, and it is, in fact, you who are demonising the opposition at this moment.
If the shoe fits wear it. The point is they are justifying an extra payroll tax on everyone who opts out by demonizing anyone who opts out as "gaming the system".
| 641 |
MandyManners Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:30:27am |
re: #598 realwest
And hey Y'ALL - I don't even see why we're debating this Health Care Bill passed by the House. Senators Reid and Schumer have already said that with or without Republican support, they are going to make that health care bill into a law for Obama to sign.
And President Obama said the same thing - We'd like to have bi-partisan support, but if the Republicans don't support health care reform, we're going to pass it anyway.
From buzzsawmonkey yesterday:
| 643 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:31:18am |
re: #630 Athens Runaway
The "teabagging" meme was started by Rachael Maddow and Anderson Cooper. Not a grassroots movement with scary air quotes around it.
That's false.
They were being mocked for calling themselves teabaggers for at least two weeks on the left and prog blogosphere, before Maddow ever did that report. Teabaggers were turning up with signs saying 'Teabag the Dems before they teabag you!"
Total Fail.
Honestly, I was shocked that none on the right side of the blogosphere knew we were all laughing hysterically about this before the Maddow report. Bad research on their part, IMO.
| 644 |
itellu3times Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:31:18am |
re: #633 opnion
Right on! I look at the bright side, I will well versed in Saul Alinsky before I get set free. Yeah baby!
You get that free tattoo of the Obama campaign logo on your left buttcheek, as well.
| 645 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:31:41am |
re: #634 Athens Runaway
ABC News and Claire McCaskill must be on the take too. Vast Right-Wing Nutter Conspiracy.
Here's one thing that I'm kind of confused about with the whole teabagging thing. Why are people mocked for not knowing what that term means. Is it a reflection on one's coolness/hipness if they are not on top of the latest sexual slang?
Is there a merit badge that's given out by the left for "gutteral sexual vocabulary and acts"?
I haven't figured out why knowing crap like that is a measure of hipness. Seems pretty juvenile to me.
| 646 |
Miss Trixie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:31:54am |
♪ ♬ Good morning, {lizards!} ♬ ♪
A loverly sunny and coolish day in the valley finds me at the end of my vacation and back to the salt mines come Monday. Meh.
Not enough sunshine through the week but I enjoyed having some time away from the madhouse to do things - or not - at my leisure.
{realwest} Morning, luv *smoochie-smooch*100 How's every little thing?
| 647 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:32:06am |
re: #632 Pianobuff
I didn't watch it, but heard that ABC had a report on the townhalls and said that they are authentic. IIRC, Claire McCaskill has also said the same thing.
re: #634 Athens Runaway
ABC News and Claire McCaskill must be on the take too. Vast Right-Wing Nutter Conspiracy.
Look at the crowds, they look like They drove in from Sun City or the Villages. A Radical Mob? This is more sleazy crap coming out of this White House.
Have SEIU thugs beat up old men, Have your syncophants turn in their neighbors just for disagreeing. Change you can believe in!
| 648 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:32:41am |
re: #605 Mich-again
Your point makes sense, except that iceweasel's explanation *did* accuse people who have no employer-offered plan of gaming the system, and being fair game for a surtax as a result.
I understand the whole point about genuine gaming of the system. (On the other hand, I still remember my distress at being forced to buy health insurance while living on starvation pay in Europe. And then I got hurt and tried to get care, and hell, I'd have been just as well off if I hadn't bothered.)
| 649 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:33:37am |
re: #644 itellu3times
You get that free tattoo of the Obama campaign logo on your left buttcheek, as well.
The mark of the beast! Obama IS the anti-christ!
///
| 650 |
right_wing2 Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:33:50am |
re: #622 iceweasel
Well, pretending a completely fabricated, astroturfed and corporate supported 'movement' is 'grassroots', and encouraging them to scream, tell chant and distrupt townhalls, is also not conducive to democracy or discourse.
The fact that this 'grass roots movement' was too dumb to know that teabagging was sexual slang, and too silly to run it through google, is just icing on the cake. So to speak.
The only people who called it 'teabagging' were those who didn't like opposition to the Obamessiah. They were called tea parties.
| 651 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:33:54am |
re: #644 itellu3times
You get that free tattoo of the Obama campaign logo on your left buttcheek, as well.
Oh man, I am sooo ready!
| 652 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:35:08am |
re: #647 opnion
Look at the crowds, they look like They drove in from Sun City or the Villages. A Radical Mob? This is more sleazy crap coming out of this White House.
Have SEIU thugs beat up old men, Have your syncophants turn in their neighbors just for disagreeing. Change you can believe in!
Well, you've even got Noonan saying that it's starting to look like desperation. Is this what things look like when Obama doesn't get his way - which again makes no sense because they have the supermajorities. The Dems right now aren't acting very rationally IMO.
| 653 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:35:41am |
A tiny insignificant yet interesting anecdotal witnessing from the Repulbic of Boulder:
Yesterday, while driving home from Friday happy hour, at the corner of Canyon and Broadway, I noticed one of those Obama as-the-joker "Socialist" signs posted on a street post. Just as I glanced at it two young adults walked by and one of them ripped half of it down.
That was fast. and I wonder who put it up?
| 654 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:36:09am |
re: #641 MandyManners
From buzzsawmonkey yesterday:
[Video]
Picking up right where you left off yesterday I see. :)
| 657 |
Athens Runaway Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:37:12am |
re: #653 FrogMarch
The more important question: where's the Racist Conservative who put them up, and how many SEIU enforcers should we send to his house?
| 658 |
Killgore Trout Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:38:00am |
re: #653 FrogMarch
That was fast. and I wonder who put it up?
Alex Jones is having a contest for people to video themselves putting up Obama-Joker signs. Top prize is $1,000.
| 659 |
SixDegrees Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:38:10am |
re: #652 Pianobuff
Well, you've even got Noonan saying that it's starting to look like desperation. Is this what things look like when Obama doesn't get his way - which again makes no sense because they have the supermajorities. The Dems right now aren't acting very rationally IMO.
They're demonizing Republicans in order to prime the pump in case their own party fractures and scuttles the health care bill - which is not unlikely. The Dems own the Federal government, but they can't even get their own party to buy into this fiasco, let alone build a consensus. When it doesn't pass, or passes with key components favored by the extreme Left missing, they need someone to blame who isn't a Democrat, despite how irrational that is.
| 660 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:38:55am |
re: #622 iceweasel
The original Boston Tea Party happened long before teabagging became sexual slang.
And btw, y'all on the Left are gonna get your butts handed to you if you believe that this is astroturfing.
Their is genuine ANGER out there - the health care "reform bill" excepts: Federal employees, including but not limited to the Congress and White House (who will continue to receive, FREE, the best health care "insurance" money can buy) certain Unions, does NOTHING AT ALL about Tort Reform, and is in fact designed so that in a year, two at most, it will be a single payer government run health care system.
That angers a LOT of thinking people - people who don't see sexual innuendo in the terms used by the MSM OR by the tea party protesters themselves.
| 661 |
quickjustice Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:40:02am |
re: #622 iceweasel
Thanks for reminding me, Weasel.
"Teabagging" is a description of a homosexual sexual act picked up by CBS and other liberal media commentators to describe the Tea Party protesters, IIRC. They think it's funny to use gay slang for a sexual act to describe their opponents. It's about as funny as me calling you a "faggot". And about as classy.
As for the Democrat "astroturf" talking point, Iowahawk has addressed it adequately here:
[Link: iowahawk.typepad.com...]
| 662 |
Pianobuff Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:40:52am |
re: #659 SixDegrees
They're demonizing Republicans in order to prime the pump in case their own party fractures and scuttles the health care bill - which is not unlikely. The Dems own the Federal government, but they can't even get their own party to buy into this fiasco, let alone build a consensus. When it doesn't pass, or passes with key components favored by the extreme Left missing, they need someone to blame who isn't a Democrat, despite how irrational that is.
Which is why so much of what's in the headlines feels like a smokescreen to me. You have the damn votes... pass it, hand out the K-Y Jelly and let's move on. Instead, you've got a bunch of thugs fitting KKK robes on little old ladies. The theatrics are boggling.
| 663 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:41:10am |
re: #629 jcm
Geez jcm, can't you always move to Oregon? I hear the health care system there is superlative to Washington's!
| 664 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:41:11am |
My problem with the Tea Party reference is that its not about taxation without representation. Everyone of the tea party goers has the opportunity to vote for politicians who make the tax laws. Where were they all before the elections?
Now the people who work and pay income taxes in cities where they aren't allowed to vote in any elections (like the suburbanites who work in Detroit), that is a relevant Tea Party gripe. Taxation without representation.
| 665 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:41:55am |
re: #652 Pianobuff
Well, you've even got Noonan saying that it's starting to look like desperation. Is this what things look like when Obama doesn't get his way - which again makes no sense because they have the supermajorities. The Dems right now aren't acting very rationally IMO.
Obama can't handle adversity. A full deck of race cards is on deck.
| 666 |
jcm Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:42:12am |
re: #663 realwest
Geez jcm, can't you always move to Oregon? I hear the health care system there is superlative to Washington's!
Yep, here's your prescription of suicide pills, just don't ask for treatment.
| 667 |
Miss Trixie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:42:41am |
An oldie but a goodie - thanks to my friend, sweets.
***
A driver is stuck in a traffic jam going into downtown DC. Nothing is moving north or south. Suddenly a man knocks on his window. The driver rolls down his window and asks, "What happened, what’s the hold up?"
"Terrorists have kidnapped Barack Obama, Hillary Clinton, Barney Frank, Harry Reid,Nancy Pelosi, Henry Waxman, Chris Dodd, Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton. They are asking for a $10 Million ransom, otherwise, they are going to douse them with gasoline and set them on fire! We are going from car to car, taking up a collection."
The driver asks, "On average, how much is everyone giving?’"
"About a gallon."
| 668 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:42:45am |
re: #635 itellu3times
I posted something to that effect yesterday. ABC reporter found all the attendees were local to the area, and I guess he didn't detect any further organization or sponsorships. There was no discussion of their political leanings other than re healthcare.
Gee, I wonder why ABC bothered to report it then?
| 669 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:43:26am |
re: #607 quickjustice
I know the parable just fine; thanks. (Raised Catholic.) I was commenting on the legal aspect, in part because I think that it is important to distinguish between legal and moral obligations.
You cannot force people to be moral; it's a choice. (If there's no choice involved, then the situation does not allow for morality, which is dependent upon free will.)
| 670 |
Walter L. Newton Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:11am |
re: #615 Athens Runaway
Morning everyone.
Is anyone else noticing the spread of the "teabagger" meme? CBS News was using it the other day. I know protest rallies aren't exactly popular around here, but dismissing real Americans with offensive nicknames like that can't be helpful to the vaunted "rational discourse."
Well, it's popular with me. Sure, you are going to have certain types at these rally's who don't help the issue, but guess what? Conservatives tend not to stifle speech or work from a base of a group meme. That's the purvey of progressives.
So, conservatives have more people speaking out in numerous way, sometimes crazy, most times intelligent dialog, and I in no way want to see us be cowered into keeping our mouth shut.
Progressive own that meme, group speak, what's proper or not according to the social group, you know, all that stuff that sounds like 1984.
Keep talking, rally on.
| 672 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:31am |
re: #660 realwest
The original Boston Tea Party happened long before teabagging became sexual slang.
And btw, y'all on the Left are gonna get your butts handed to you if you believe that this is astroturfing.
It's astroturfing.
And the original Boston Tea Party was about 'taxation without representation'-- not a bunch of lunatics pitching a fit and screaming that they 'want their country back' because their candidate lost the election.
Democracy. It means sometimes, the other guy wins.
The kind of organised disruptive tactics happening at townhalls-- screaming and interrupting the speakers, shouting them down before they even answer-- is the opposite of democracy.
| 673 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:31am |
re: #646 Miss Trixie
A dreary rainy cool morning here. It must be a weekend. I won't complain about the rain though. The lawn and garden are as lush and green as they've ever been this late in the Summer.
| 674 |
lincolntf Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:44:59am |
re: #647 opnion
I've been flipping through the news channels for a few minutes, looking for reports of more "Q&A" sessions on Health Care. I can't find any yet. I have to think that Obama isn't stupid enough to continue sending in the SEIU thugs after what's been going on. Or maybe all the Dems will cancel their events wholesale and avoid the question entirely.
Either way, it's been instructional to watch how Obama reacts when he doesn't immediately get his way. I expected the pouting, but the militants surprised me.
| 675 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:45:44am |
re: #646 Miss Trixie
Well good morning to you gorgeous and *Smoochies* to the 101'st power back atcha!
| 676 |
Miss Trixie Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:08am |
re: #673 Mich-again
A dreary rainy cool morning here. It must be a weekend. I won't complain about the rain though. The lawn and garden are as lush and green as they've ever been this late in the Summer.
Here too and with all the rain we've had this summer, the slugs and snails have been nom nom nomming everything to bits.
It's the first week of August and I'm wearing socks! Meh.
| 677 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:48:13am |
re: #658 Killgore Trout
Alex Jones is having a contest for people to video themselves putting up Obama-Joker signs. Top prize is $1,000.
re: #658 Killgore Trout
Alex Jones is having a contest for people to video themselves putting up Obama-Joker signs. Top prize is $1,000.
Conspiracy kook-thinking is very popular here among the alternative life-style and pot-smoking crowds of Boulder.
But I will say that the conservatives (the ones you like to paint as lunatics) are not the ones doing this. I know a handful of conservatives who live in this town and they are hard-working, tax-paying, productive citizens who are very quiet about their views-- (mostly out of fear).
| 678 |
FrogMarch Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:50:13am |
re: #657 Athens Runaway
The more important question: where's the Racist Conservative who put them up, and how many SEIU enforcers should we send to his house?
Killgore is probably right - I smell Alex Jones. But then, many conservatives understand that Obama is, as a matter of tax and spend and growth of government - a socialist. A poster like that just isn't our style.
| 679 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:50:23am |
re: #652 Pianobuff
Well, you've even got Noonan saying that it's starting to look like desperation. Is this what things look like when Obama doesn't get his way - which again makes no sense because they have the supermajorities. The Dems right now aren't acting very rationally IMO.
I agree. They appear to be thinking: How dare the public disagree with His Annointedness?
They have well and truly forgotten that they work for us.
| 680 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:51:32am |
re: #667 Miss Trixie
It's wrong to wish personal violence even on those people...but that was funny and intended to be funny so I updinged ya!
| 681 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:52:51am |
re: #672 iceweasel
The kind of organised disruptive tactics happening at townhalls-- screaming and interrupting the speakers, shouting them down before they even answer-- is the opposite of democracy.
I agree. But this is nothing new. Were you here for the 8 years of the GWB presidency? The shout-down and disrupt tactic wasn't just invented in the last few months. How many radical lefties have been dragged out of town halls and convention halls for pulling the same idiotic stunt.
Thats what makes me laugh about all the recent whining from the Left about disruptive loons interrupting their shindigs. All of a sudden they are horrified at such barbaric tactics. For 8 years prior, it was considered freedom of speech to pull off crap like that.
I have no use for anyone from either side shouting and screaming at a forum that should be about people debating respectfully.
| 682 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:52:53am |
re: #661 quickjustice
Thanks for reminding me, Weasel.
"Teabagging" is a description of a homosexual sexual act
Fail.
| 683 |
opnion Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:12am |
re: #672 iceweasel
It's astroturfing.
And the original Boston Tea Party was about 'taxation without representation'-- not a bunch of lunatics pitching a fit and screaming that they 'want their country back' because their candidate lost the election.
Democracy. It means sometimes, the other guy wins.
The kind of organised disruptive tactics happening at townhalls-- screaming and interrupting the speakers, shouting them down before they even answer-- is the opposite of democracy.
Progressive tactics?
| 684 |
shiplord kirel Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:53:21am |
' Morning, Lizard minions.
You won't believe the latest outbreak of pure, 200 proof, Alex Jones inspired kool-aid swilling at Free Republic, the formerly respectable conservative site and recent global HQ for nirther fantasies.
A freeper has seized on the Army recruiting site's listing for MOS (Military Occupation Service) 31E (internment/resettlement specialist) and decided for no apparent reason that this is connected to the Zero's alleged plans to round up Americans and put them in FEMA camps. There is no evidence at all for this connection, needless to say, the tin-foilers just assume that it is obvious, as it probably is to them.
One commenter even considers it ominous that there are no caucasian males among the two people in this National Guard ad for 31E.
| 685 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:54:14am |
re: #672 iceweasel
"The kind of organised disruptive tactics happening at townhalls-- screaming and interrupting the speakers, shouting them down before they even answer-- is the opposite of democracy."
As the LEFT in this country knows all too well, having so much practice at it and all.
| 686 |
lurking faith Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:55:50am |
re: #672 iceweasel
And yet, oddly enough, the left has been shouting down conservatives at local meetings for many, many years, without the conservatives resorting to violence.
But now, as soon as a few instances of leftists being shouted down have occurred, the shouters are swiftly threatened with violence.
/Check out the beam in your own eye.
| 687 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:02am |
re: #685 realwest
"The kind of organised disruptive tactics happening at townhalls-- screaming and interrupting the speakers, shouting them down before they even answer-- is the opposite of democracy."
As the LEFT in this country knows all too well, having so much practice at it and all.
Is this some sort of "Teh Left did it, so it's ok if we do it" defense?
Pathetic.
BTW, although I don't agree with the rest of Mich-again's comment, he gets this exactly right:
re: #681 Mich-again
I have no use for anyone from either side shouting and screaming at a forum that should be about people debating respectfully.
| 688 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:17am |
re: #684 shiplord kirel
Oh BULLSHIT - when was Free Republic EVER considered a respectable conservative site?
| 689 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:45am |
re: #686 lurking faith
/Check out the beam in your own eye.
And if I'd ever defended the left using such tactics, I would. :)
| 690 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:57:59am |
re: #686 lurking faith
The downside of using Saul Alinsky's Rules for Radicals to gain power (as Obama et al have done) is that once you have the power your opponents can use those same tactics against you. Boo hoo.
| 691 |
realwest Sat, Aug 8, 2009 8:58:44am |
re: #687 iceweasel
No it's just that it's funny and sad to see the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm sure you were busy protesting the LEFT'S tactics while Bush was President. Or at least you'll tell us you were.
| 692 |
BARACK THE VOTE Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:05:19am |
re: #691 realwest
No it's just that it's funny and sad to see the pot calling the kettle black.
I'm sure you were busy protesting the LEFT'S tactics while Bush was President. Or at least you'll tell us you were.
You've just made clear that you prefer to believe your fantasises about what I think, over what I actually say.
Therefore, I won't be bothering to answer you again.
Unlike you, I have no interest in having a flame war. It bores me. And it bores and annoys other readers. And our host has made it quite clear that he doesn't like them. And if you have no consideration for me, or other registered readers, or our host, perhaps you might spare a thought for the blog itself? -- consider how this bullshit drives away not only current registered readers but future commenters, and traffic in general.
Not cool.
Cheers, done now.
| 693 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:05:44am |
re: #689 iceweasel
And if I'd ever defended the left using such tactics, I would. :)
So you never defended the left using such tactics. I'll buy that. But did you protest their use of those tactics or were you silent on the matter. Thats where the left loses credibility here. For years their goons were doing the same thing and they didn't say boo, but now the tables are turned they want to make sure Robert's Rules of Order are followed at every town hall.
| 694 |
Mich-again Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:09:08am |
re: #692 iceweasel
And if you have no consideration for me, or other registered readers, or our host, perhaps you might spare a thought for the blog itself?
Realwest and I just didn't fall off the turnip truck. Don't worry too much that us disagreeing with you somehow shows we have no consideration for other readers or Charles or LGF. Jeesh.
| 695 |
Shiplord Kirel Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:29:21am |
re: #688 realwest
Oh BULLSHIT - when was Free Republic EVER considered a respectable conservative site?
In 2004 when their guy Buckhead was the first to recognize that the Bush TANG documents used Windows default settings, an issue that Charles and this site settled definitively in time to keep Blather and SeeBS from stealing the election.
| 696 |
formercorpsman Sat, Aug 8, 2009 9:36:16am |
echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo, echo,...
| 697 |
Bill K. Sat, Aug 8, 2009 11:55:36pm |
You are missing a lot if you have just seen the Bond movies and not read the books they were tenuously based on. Ian Fleming was a master at descriptive phrases. Here are some:
Goldfinger said, 'Mr Bond, they have a saying in Chicago: "Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action."'
The man wore a dirty white linen suit and had a chauffeur's white cap that was too big for his head. There were deep blue shadows under Aztec cheek-bones. In one corner of the slash of a mouth there was a toothpick and in the other a cigarette. the eyes were bright pinpricks of marihuana.
'You like woman? Make jigajig?'
'No.'
'Colored girl? Fine jungle tail?'
'No.'
'Mebbe pictures?'
The gesture of the hand slipping into the coat was so well known to Bond, so full of old dangers, that, when the hand flashed out and the long silver finger went for his throat, Bond was on balance and ready for it.
Almost automatically, Bond went into the 'Parry Defence against Underhand Thrust' out of the book. His right arm cut across, his body swiveling with it. The two forearms met mid-way between the two bodies, banging the Mexican's knife arm off target and opening his guard for a crashing short-arm chin jab with Bond's left. Bond's stiff, locked wrist had not traveled far, perhaps two feet, but the heel of his palm, with fingers spread for rigidity, had come up under the man's chin with terrific force. The blow had almost lifted the man off the sidewalk. Perhaps it had been that blow that had killed the Mexican, broken his neck, but as he staggered back on his way to the ground, Bond had drawn back his right hand and slashed sideways at the taut, offered throat. It was the deadly hand edge blow to the Adam's apple, delivered with the fingers locked into a blade, that had been the standby of the Commandos. If the Mexican was still alive, he was certainly dead before he hit the ground.-Goldfinger
Colonel Klebb of SMERSH was wearing a semi-transparent nightgown in orange crepe de chine. It had scallops of the same material round the low square neckline and scallops at the wrists of the broadly flounced sleeves. Underneath could be seen a brassiere consisting of two large pink satin roses. Below, she wore old-fashioned knickers of pink satin with elastic above the knees. One dimpled knee, like a yellowish coconut, appeared thrust forward between the half open folds of the nightgown in the classic stance of a modeler. The feet were encased in pink satin slippers with pompoms of ostrich feathers. Rosa Klebb had taken off her spectacles and her naked face was now thick with mascara and rouge and lipstick.
She looked like the oldest and ugliest whore in the world.
-From Russia, with Love
She turned. The beautiful wild face was streaked with sweat and tears. Now the gray eyes were soft and obedient. She said, "It's nice of you to be like that. After the way I was. I was sort of - sort of wound up."She held out her arm. Bond reached for the hunting knife at her belt and cut off her shirt sleeve at the shoulder. There was the bruised, bleeding gash of a bullet would across the muscle. Bond took out his own khaki handkerchief, cut it into three lengths, and joined them together. He wash the wound clean with coffee and whiskey and then took a thick slice of bread from his haversack and bound it over the wound. He cut her shirt sleeve into a sling and reached behind her neck to tie the knot. Her mouth was inches from his. The scent of her body had a wild animal tang. Bond kissed her softly on the lips and once again, hard. He tied the knot. He looked into the gray eyes close to his. They looked surprised and happy. He kissed her again at each corner of the mouth, and the mouth slowly smiled. Bond stood away from her and smiled back. he softly picked up her right hand and slipped the wrist into the sling. She said docilely, "Where are you taking me?"
- For Your Eyes Only
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