Camera: Jew Hatred at HuffPo

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camera.org has an interesting article asking the question: Has the Huffington Post Become a Magnet for Israel Haters?

Outside of its coverage of Israel, the Huffington Post articles and opinion columns reflect liberal-left sentiment. But many of the views expressed on comment threads relating to Israel are not liberal or left in any meaningful way. They reflect, rather,�a deep paranoia over Jewish influence and an obsession with age-old canards about Jews that has long been standard rhetoric�of far-right reactionaries but increasingly strikes a responsive chord among the radical left.

The articles reviewed in this sampling suggest�some�among�the Huffington Post’s readership are allowed to direct their vitriol at Israel and its supporters despite the�site’s declared editing policy. That leaves one of two possibilities:

1. Huffington Post staff intentionally allow expressions of virulent anti-Israel sentiment, including more generalized resentment of Jews..

2. The Huffington Post’s readership is so permeated with�prejudice and�hostility towards Israel and its supporters that the posted comments are simply an accurate reflection of its readership. Considering that American opinion polls have for decades shown strong public support for Israel and opposition to extreme positions on either side, this should raise concerns about the make-up of Huffington’s readership.

Whatever the explanation, the prevalence of bigoted comments�should�raise questions for�Arianna Huffington who seeks to establish a serious and credible journalistic�reputation for her site.

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368 comments
1 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:52:51am

Gotta love the gas-huffing post. I coined that, I believe.

2 simonml  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:53:30am

Has the Huffington Post Become a Magnet for Israel Haters?

YES

3 albusteve  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:54:02am

HuffPo has been in the tank for a while...I can't go there anymore

4 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:54:07am
the prevalence of bigoted comments should raise questions for Arianna Huffington who seeks to establish a serious and credible journalistic reputation for her site.

Well, thats pretty much a moot point by now

5 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:54:24am

Oh and I forgot to mention as I was patting myself on the back, I'd go as far as to say that they're becoming magnetic north. They have the bankroll that tends to keep these things just enough underground to not appear as extremist.

6 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:55:50am

I was surprised when someone my wife knows published an article on Kabbalah on the Huffington Post. The article was good, but I didn't read the comments.
It was real Kabbalah, not the "Kabbalah Centre's" stuff (where Madonna goes), but I wonder if most readers knew it was based in Judaism.

7 nyc redneck  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:56:03am

i have never been to the huffington post.

8 Guanxi88  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:56:11am

re: #5 Equable

Oh and I forgot to mention as I was patting myself on the back, I'd go as far as to say that they're becoming magnetic north. They have the bankroll that tends to keep these things just enough underground to not appear as extremist.

"lodestar" of judenhasse, eh?

Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews? Or is it that the other lefty zaniness has drawn these bigots like flies to cow-pie?

9 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:56:52am

That's like asking if the Shrine of Fatima has become a magnet for Catholics.

10 calcajun  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:57:34am

No, it has not. I don't why, though, I feel the need to bathe after going there --which is becoming an increasingly infrequent event. /

11 simonml  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:57:51am

The full article contains dozens and dozens of examples of their anti-semitism including a statistical analysis of consecutive comments on various articles. These are not disparate comments by Mobies or trolls. Methinks the case is closed on their hatred of Israel and Jews.

12 Ward Cleaver  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:58:28am

Now with White House credentials!

13 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:58:48am

re: #8 Guanxi88

"lodestar" of judenhasse, eh?

Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews? Or is it that the other lefty zaniness has drawn these bigots like flies to cow-pie?

Good question but it depends on who you ask.

Some would consider the pharaohs to have been pretty liberal.

14 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:58:51am

And yet, Huffpo is accredited by our President.

15 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:58:53am

re: #8 Guanxi88

"lodestar" of judenhasse, eh?

Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews? Or is it that the other lefty zaniness has drawn these bigots like flies to cow-pie?

Its the one common ground they share with the far right. I work with a guy who curses liberals with one breath, then turns around and talks about the Bilderberg group and the international banking cartel which is run by, yup, you guessed it, the Jews.

16 Desert Dog  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:59:14am

They are just taking the same path as their beloved El Presidente - Screw Israel and embrace the Palis.

17 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:59:33am

re: #8 Guanxi88

"lodestar" of judenhasse, eh?

Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews? Or is it that the other lefty zaniness has drawn these bigots like flies to cow-pie?

Once Israel was no longer the underdog, and clearly not socialist; somewhere about the same time as the Soviet Union started strongly supporting the Arabs against Israel. This increased drastically probably around 1970 and later, and more when Arafat's image was rehabilitated by Carter and the UN.

18 ROPMA  Tue, May 12, 2009 8:59:58am

Typical left wing hypocrisy.

19 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:00:24am

re: #12 Ward Cleaver

Now with White House credentials!

The anti-Israel attitude probably helps there.

20 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:00:29am

re: #8 Guanxi88


Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews?

Right around the time the Palis and other terrorist ilk became chic.

21 dhg4  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:00:40am

Ira Forman of the NJDC regularly publishes there. Forman is, of course, oblivious to leftist antisemitism. And while I disagree with him, he's hardly antisemitic.

In general, the main articles - though I vehemently disagree with them - are not the problem (based on my limited exposure.) It's the comments. (And CAMERA seems to agree.)

22 Guanxi88  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:01:04am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its the one common ground they share with the far right. I work with a guy who curses liberals with one breath, then turns around and talks about the Bilderberg group and the international banking cartel which is run by, yup, you guessed it, the Jews.

That's what I'm talking about - this weird mutation of things. When I was a kid, all talk of Bilderbergers, Illuminati, etc., etc., along with a good dose of anti-Semitism and gold-bug fever, was to be found on the fringes of the right. Now, it seems to be on the left's fringes as well, and is slowly oozing its way toward the main stream. Spooky stuff.

23 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:01:30am

re: #12 Ward Cleaver

Beat me by 22 secs. ;-)

24 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:01:58am

re: #15 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Its the one common ground they share with the far right. I work with a guy who curses liberals with one breath, then turns around and talks about the Bilderberg group and the international banking cartel which is run by, yup, you guessed it, the Jews.

That's just it though Kragar, in the circles of liberals I know - anti-Judaism doesn't seem as taboo and is not only spoken fairly loudly and publiclly with virtually no opposition, but done with proud zeal.

25 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:03am

Unfortunately, the ethnic stereotype that Greeks hate Jews is largely true. Huffington probably doesn't even understand that her bigoted anti-semitic point of view is outside the mainstream, because within her circle, it isn't.

26 calcajun  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:06am

Calling the times in which we live "interesting" is an understatement.

27 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:07am

Sorry for the analogy, that was stupid of me. (Not a meltdown, just the wrong synapses firing.)

28 wiffersnapper  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:07am

Keep the Jew hating in the Middle East. We're supposed to be a nation on intellectuals here.

29 Guanxi88  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:28am

re: #20 Russkilitlover

Right around the time the Palis and other terrorist ilk became chic.

If I were a Che-shirt wearing lefty of the usual stripe, the typical Pali would be damned near the apotheosis of everything I oppose - bigoted in the extreme, repressive of women and sexual minorities, and prone to violence. And yet, they love them

30 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:31am

Anyway.

If a site owner allows their site to be used by haters, it will inevitably become a hate site. If there's not already an iron law of politics about this, there should be.

31 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:02:36am

re: #22 Guanxi88

That's what I'm talking about - this weird mutation of things. When I was a kid, all talk of Bilderbergers, Illuminati, etc., etc., along with a good dose of anti-Semitism and gold-bug fever, was to be found on the fringes of the right. Now, it seems to be on the left's fringes as well, and is slowly oozing its way toward the main stream. Spooky stuff.

Paranoia is a very comfortable state of mind. It means you think you're important enough for people to be out to get you.

32 Lincolntf  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:03:18am

re: #27 Zimriel

I'm a Catholic and understood your point.
It did cause a double-take at first, though.

33 FrogMarch  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:03:48am

I find Huffpo unreadable and disgusting. No surprise it's become a cesspool of anti-Israel Jew hatred. No surprise at all.


But many of the views expressed on comment threads relating to Israel are not liberal or left in any meaningful way.

huh?
Over the years, the most vile Jew-hatred I've personally witnessed has always come from a political leftist.

34 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:03:48am

re: #24 Equable

That's just it though Kragar, in the circles of liberals I know - anti-Judaism doesn't seem as taboo and is not only spoken fairly loudly and publicly with virtually no opposition, but done with proud zeal.

My apologies. Caffeine hasn't kicked in yet.

35 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:05am

re: #32 Lincolntf

I'm a Catholic and understood your point.
It did cause a double-take at first, though.

I am too. :^( I reported my own comment for deletion.

36 Shug  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:14am

I was listening to AM radio and at the break Katie Couric was doing a 60 second commentary on politics and she quoted Ariana Huffington.

since when is this moron an authority to be quoted about anything other than how to drive your husband to the arms of another man?

37 Guanxi88  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:15am

re: #31 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

Paranoia is a very comfortable state of mind. It means you think you're important enough for people to be out to get you.

That's part of the comfort of it - the other part is that it provides order and meaning to an otherwise incomprehensible string of phenomena.

38 jorline  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:26am

Posted on HuffPoo today.

Iran Claims Missiles Deployed In Persian Gulf

skialethia

Do we really want to suffer another war? Do we really want to allow Israel to drag us into another war? Do we want to deal with the disaster that will result from this?

Israel must be stopped! Enough is enough! Impose sanctions on Israel! The Security Council should meet, impose sanctions on Israel and DEMAND inspections of their nuclear facilities and then impose further sanctions for an illegal nuclear program!
Posted 09:50 AM on 05/12/2009

Macready

totally agree with you skialethia . . . sanctions have to be imposed on israel . their nuclear arsenal declared and inspected . . . I am convinced the israelis will start a war with Iran just to keep on stealing land from the Palestinians . . . any country that supports israel is mental
Posted 10:23 AM on 05/12/2009

Two out of five posts.
HuffPoo=anti-Juice

39 nyc redneck  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:43am

i just don't have time to waste.
i heard her on a talk show and she sounds like such an attention seeking, phony opportunist.
how could she be up to anything worthwhile?

40 notutopia  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:46am

Possible? Explanations
1. Huffington Post staff intentionally allow expressions of virulent anti-Israel sentiment, including more generalized resentment of Jews..

2. The Huffington Post’s readership is so permeated with prejudice and hostility towards Israel and its supporters that the posted comments are simply an accurate reflection of its readership. Considering that American opinion polls have for decades shown strong public support for Israel and opposition to extreme positions on either side, this should raise concerns about the make-up of Huffington’s readership.

Arianna would do herself some good to follow the healthy practice of limit setting on bloggers abuses and spewing blasphemy's upon Jews. Perhaps she should pay a little more attention to the commentaries here at LGF? She'd learn a little about how to run a quality web blog from Charles.

41 fish  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:46am
deep paranoia over Jewish influence and an obsession with age-old canards about Jews that has long been standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries

There it is again, the general assumption that Jew hatred is a right wing belief. For the record: It was the National Socialists that committed the Holocaust. Hatred of Jews has been and always will be a predominantly Left Wing Opinion. Yes there are right wing lunatics that hate Jews also but on the right it is a fringe group, on the left it is nearly a core belief. The biggest example of this is the left wing belief that the Republican party is run by "neo Cons" who they maintain are almost all Jewish.

42 calcajun  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:04:54am

Slightly OT, but in keeping with fearless leader's MO:

[Link: adage.com...]

I wonder if the POTUS will be at the end of the new Chrysler commercials saying, "I'm Barak Obama, and I approve of this commercial".

43 MJ  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:05:41am

Arianna Huffington on Mel Gibson:

In the same way that ordinary Muslims need to separate themselves from the blood-drenched ideology of Hezbollah, Hollywood needs to separate itself from the odious racism of Gibson. And I don't make that connection lightly. Remember, during his DUI tirade, Gibson claimed, "The Jews are responsible for all the wars in the world." That kind of thinking makes him psychological soul mates with Hezbollah leader Sheik Hassan Nasrallah, who has said, "If we searched the entire world for a person more cowardly, despicable, weak, and feeble in psyche, mind, ideology, and religion, we would not find anyone like the Jew."

Gibson's no-longer-deniable brand of bigotry has led to the extermination of millions -- and continues to fuel much of the strife and suffering in the world today. Which is why Hollywood cannot sit this one out and wait for the reviews to come in.

Of course, Gibson's bigotry is not to be tolerate.
The Huffington Post's bigotry is just fine even though it is exactly the same as Mel Gibson's.

44 Land Shark  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:05:43am

re: #8 Guanxi88

I think it began when the Left adopted the Palestinians as their favorite victims. Since the Israelis know their enemy and prefer to defend themselves as opposed to allowing themselves to be killed, the Left turned on them like the vicious dogs they are. Hence the "big, bad Israelis are evil" while the pure as the driven sand Palestinians are their "victims."

Of course they ignore reality and the true hatred and motives of the Palestinians, but hey, we already know the Left is "reality challenged."

45 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:06:01am

re: #36 Shug

I was listening to AM radio and at the break Katie Couric was doing a 60 second commentary on politics and she quoted Ariana Huffington.

since when is this moron an authority to be quoted about anything other than how to drive your husband to the arms of another man?


Couric quoting Huffington? That's a moron-on-moron convergence. Since when is Katie Couric a respected journalist?

46 calcajun  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:06:45am

re: #36 Shug

Since when is this moron an authority to be quoted about anything other than how to drive your husband to the arms of another man?

I remember when she ran for governor out here and in one debate she used probably the worst possible mispronunciation of the word "focus"--but it was oddly apropos.

47 Mr. E. Train  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:07:17am

Outside of the few remaining paleo-cons (Pat B. et al) the new home for jew hatred is the 'progressive' left. The fact that such dreck shows up at HuffPo isnt shocking, its to be expected.

48 Kragar  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:07:34am

re: #37 Guanxi88

That's part of the comfort of it - the other part is that it provides order and meaning to an otherwise incomprehensible string of phenomena.

WHO TOLD YOU TO SAY THAT? WHAT DO YOU KNOW?

/

49 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:07:59am

re: #8 Guanxi88

"Seriously, though, when did raving lefties turn against Israel and the Jews?"

I once read a text written by the reform rabbi, Emil Fackenheim -- he lived in Canada (taught at a Canadian university). But in the 1980s (?) he noted how the CBC was increasingly becoming antisemitic (yes, back in the 80s). And then someone asked him a question (to the effect, not quoting), "Well if you're such a lover of Zion, why aren't you in Israel?" So then he thought about it, and left Canada for good (moved to Israel).

50 MJ  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:08:28am

The Left is in love with Jew-hatred.
All they do is what the Soviet Union used to do: they use "Zionist" instead of Jew.
Same blood libels.
Same Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Same hatred.

51 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:08:57am

re: #43 MJ

Arianna Huffington on Mel Gibson:

Of course, Gibson's bigotry is not to be tolerate.
The Huffington Post's bigotry is just fine even though it is exactly the same as Mel Gibson's.

Lest we forget their money-man Soros: one needn't a fine toothed comb to learn about his past affiliations/leanings.

52 researchok  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:09:09am

Huffpo mainstreams anti Israel and antisemitism for no other reason than those sentiments reflect current leftist ideology. That leftist ideology was born of pure hatred.

Israel is the only nation-state that was at first supported by the left and then rejected.

The left were only too happy to support Israel at her founding because they believed the transplanted communists and socialists would establish a 'People's Paradise' and would align themselves with the Communists. In fat, Russia was the first nation to cast a ballot in favor of the establishment of the State of Israel.

Of course, there was to be no communist 'People's Paradise' because in the end, the Israelis did what ever people do when given a choice- they chose freedom.

When the wall came down in eastern Europe, the same thing happened. The communists who had to run against candidates who embraced democratic ideals were badly beaten. Those who had tasted leftist ideologies wanted no part of it.

To this day there is not a single example of leftist supported ideology or nation that has not established itself by way of violent oppression, repression or intimidation. There is no such thing as utopia without the imposition of tyranny.

53 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:09:40am

CAMERA is a good outfit. They sponsored a talk by Mark Steyn near me last year - what a great time that was!

54 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:11:02am

re: #41 fish

There it is again, the general assumption that Jew hatred is a right wing belief. For the record: It was the National Socialists that committed the Holocaust. Hatred of Jews has been and always will be a predominantly Left Wing Opinion. Yes there are right wing lunatics that hate Jews also but on the right it is a fringe group, on the left it is nearly a core belief. The biggest example of this is the left wing belief that the Republican party is run by "neo Cons" who they maintain are almost all Jewish.

Not "always been". Envy of the nouveau riche and of "trade" was long a central plank of Tory-dom. It's a fringe idea on the American Right, now, but that's thanks to post 1950s Evangelicals and not to the old-school WASPs and Lutherans who were gung-ho for Lindbergh in the 1930s.

55 Kosh's Shadow  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:11:25am

re: #52 researchok

Huffpo mainstreams anti Israel and antisemitism for no other reason than those sentiments reflect current leftist ideology. That leftist ideology was born of pure hatred.

Israel is the only nation-state that was at first supported by the left and then rejected.

To this day there is not a single example of leftist supported ideology or nation that has not established itself by way of violent oppression, repression or intimidation. There is no such thing as utopia without the imposition of tyranny.

It looks like the US is going in that direction without violence, though. That's what happens when you have the collusion of the media and educational system.

56 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:11:55am

re: #45 Russkilitlover

Couric quoting Huffington? That's a moron-on-moron convergence. Since when is Katie Couric a respected journalist?

I still smile when I think that the "Couric" is the standard measurement of crap in South Park.

57 JammieWearingFool  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:12:07am

Well, since libs are by and large anti-semitic and the HuffPost is as far left as you can get, this only make sense.

58 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:12:33am

re: #55 Kosh's Shadow

It looks like the US is going in that direction without violence, though. That's what happens when you have the collusion of the media and educational system.

And the popular culture.

59 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:12:35am

I just hope one day my liberal Jewish friends and family will wake up to what a good portion of the left is either intentionally or unintentionally walking down that ignorant road. But I hold out little hope.

60 unrealizedviewpoint  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:13:00am

These Juice haters have our Presidents ear.

61 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:13:19am

The Irish in the 1930s were a special case; very reactionary in some ways, but staunch Democrat voters. Would they be counted left or right wing?

I'm not sure that left and right talk is productive here; HuffPo have a smelly stable to clean out and they should get to it if they want their side to be taken seriously.

63 Nevergiveup  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:13:28am

re: #60 unrealizedviewpoint

These Juice haters have our Presidents ear.


Worse than that, they have his head.

64 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:13:50am

re: #43 MJ

Mel Gibson is a liberal. His best friend is Michael Moore, and he offered to back Farenheit 9/11 financially. Gibson hates Bush as well as Jews.

Huffington's condemnation of Gibson is hypocritical, given her own anti-semitic views.

65 Equable  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:14:14am

re: #52 researchok

The left were only too happy to support Israel at her founding because they believed the transplanted communists and socialists would establish a 'People's Paradise' and would align themselves with the Communists.

Yeah, not to mention it afforded them the opportunity to help the Jews after WWII without actually having to... house and accommodate the pesky little guys.

66 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:14:16am

re: #60 unrealizedviewpoint

These Juice haters have our Presidents ear.

That's a lot of ear!

67 jvic  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:14:24am
Whatever the explanation, the prevalence of bigoted comments should raise questions for Arianna Huffington who seeks to establish a serious and credible journalistic reputation for her site.

My impression is that Huffington seeks to get and wield power, and establishing a journalistic reputation is completely subordinate to that end. (Full disclosure: I rarely visit her site.)

68 Zimriel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:14:39am

And I think the surge of Ron Paul on the Right is Lindbergh's zombie, BTW.

69 Guanxi88  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:15:42am

re: #68 Zimriel

And I think the surge of Ron Paul on the Right is Lindbergh's zombie, BTW.

Or his baby, finally come of age.

70 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:15:45am

re: #48 Kragar (Proud to be Kafir)

You're not paranoid if the little green men really are out to get you! ;-)

And what about the little green lizards?

71 Ward Cleaver  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:17:19am

re: #27 Zimriel

Sorry for the analogy, that was stupid of me. (Not a meltdown, just the wrong synapses firing.)

Don't sweat it; I understood your analogy, so I wasn't offended.

72 redc1c4  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:17:20am

sorry, but "Arianna Huffington" and the phrase "serious and credible" simply do not belong in the same sentence, unless there is some sort of negative qualifier involved, indicating their mutually exclusive relationship to each other.

73 Ben Hur  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:17:25am

Hatred of Israel is a requirement for membership.

I'm sure most of the left, and especially college age and younger, hate Israel, not out of any special knowledge of history, etc, but because it's part of the litmus test to be accepted.

74 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:17:40am

re: #68 Zimriel

And I think the surge of Ron Paul on the Right is Lindbergh's zombie, BTW.

BRAAAAAINS!

75 FrogMarch  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:19:18am

There's definably Ron Paul/Pat Buchanan right-winger anti-Israel crap, but Huffpo is a reliably leftist.

76 Ben Hur  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:19:43am

And don't think (and I know you don't) that this will lead to any introspection.

The article will be drowned out by screams of "Camera is a propoganda arm of the far right wing Likud/NeoCon cabal that has the nerve to actually translate Arabic...."

77 researchok  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:20:10am

re: #55 Kosh's Shadow

One could argue that economic repression has the same intimidating effect on a population.

78 redc1c4  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:22:32am

re: #27 Zimriel

Sorry for the analogy, that was stupid of me. (Not a meltdown, just the wrong synapses firing.)

not that bad a thought: it's gotten 6 updings.re: #35 Zimriel

I am too. :^( I reported my own comment for deletion.

i recommended it.... %-)

79 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:22:51am

re: #69 Guanxi88

Ron Paul is identified as a libertarian. His neo-Nazi and 9/11 Truther connections aren't well known. I think most of his followers are libertarians, not Nazis and Truthers.

80 redc1c4  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:22:51am

re: #74 BeerDrinking_VictoryMonkey

BRAAAAAINS!

Laup Nor's are rotten.

81 Gella  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:23:36am

puffington post is insane as always

82 Ben Hur  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:24:31am
Name-calling and personal attacks against commenters who dissent with their views appear all too often. Accusations against Jews and Israel, popular among political fringe groups, routinely are given voice

We just voted the anti-Israel "fringe" to the highest office in the land.

83 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:24:38am

re: #29 Guanxi88

If I were a Che-shirt wearing lefty of the usual stripe, the typical Pali would be damned near the apotheosis of everything I oppose

Then again, so would the guy on your shirt.

84 quickjustice  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:25:32am

Ariana has been successful at marketing herself. As Stein once said, however, "There's no there there" except an appalling anti-semitism.

85 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:26:11am

re: #39 nyc redneck

i just don't have time to waste.
i heard her on a talk show and she sounds like such an attention seeking, phony opportunist.
how could she be up to anything worthwhile?


Add to that selfish, self-absorbed and arrogant.

She goes whichever way the wind is blowing.

86 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:27:29am

re: #54 Zimriel

Envy of the nouveau riche and of "trade" was long a central plank of Tory-dom.

It strikes me that the Democrat Party is now pretty well infected with this virus. Indeed, the early party was inhabited by the "landed", especially in the South who continue to shudder that they may have to share the view with the entrepreneurial class.

87 unreconstructed rebel  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:28:28am

re: #63 Nevergiveup

Worse than that, they have his head.

... and his heart.

88 Ben Hur  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:30:46am

BBL

89 Russkilitlover  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:31:35am

re: #57 JammieWearingFool

Well, since libs are by and large anti-semitic and the HuffPost is as far left as you can get, this only make sense.

And yet American Jews are staunchly Democratic. Weird. Boggles my mind.

90 JustABill  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:31:56am

re: #37 Guanxi88

That's part of the comfort of it - the other part is that it provides order and meaning to an otherwise incomprehensible string of phenomena.

What it really means is that you can blame someone else for the mess you've made of your life/nation/people.

91 califleftyb  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:37:28am

Ever since Arianna left the sex-cult the "Church of the Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness" (you can't make this up people) she's had the need to screw someone.

92 reine.de.tout  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:39:52am

re: #91 califleftyb

Ever since Arianna left the sex-cult the "Church of the Movement of Spiritual Inner Awareness" (you can't make this up people) she's had the need to screw someone.

That church sounds like it must be related to the "First Church of What's Happening Now'.

93 Who Watches the Watchmen?  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:45:34am

re: #92 reine.de.tout

That church sounds like it must be related to the "First Church of What's Happening Now'.

Quality Flip Wilson reference!

94 kynna  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:47:29am

The answer to whether or not HuffPo is a haven for Jew haters is "yes". It's a haven for haters in general. I have friends who frequent that site and one or two who are actual celebrity guest posters. I have to admit that I've been pulling back from those friendships as I'm seeing more and more of the crowd they're surrounding themselves with. They haven't been anti-Israel, but they don't mind the company of those who are virulently so. It's nowhere near where I want to be.

95 redstateredneck  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:50:36am

re: #16 Desert Dog

They are just taking the same path as their beloved El Presidente - Screw Israel and embrace the Palis.


That's been cool and hip for ages. Way before El Presidente.

96 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 9:59:06am
with age-old canards about Jews that has long been standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries but increasingly strikes a responsive chord among the radical left.

Another uninformed opinion from the general population who always seem to associate Nazis with the Right......

I get so tired of repeating it.

"NATIONAL SOCIALISM" means everything to the State. State controls EVERYTHING, schools, industries, banks, healthcare, media, EVERYTHING.

This is ANATHEMA for Conservative Ideals.

gheeesh

97 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:01:40am

Let me ask you guys this: why is this news? As long as I can remember (let say 15 years), the left-wing has been the main perpetrator of Jew and Israel hatred. How many years did they jam Oslo down our throats. How many times do we need to hear "cycle of violence" on CNN? 9/10 you ask these people what the problem is, they will reply like a programed robot: "occupation". The left are useful idiots for the people planting seeds of Israel's annihilation.

98 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:06:08am

re: #41 fish

There it is again, the general assumption that Jew hatred is a right wing belief. For the record: It was the National Socialists that committed the Holocaust. Hatred of Jews has been and always will be a predominantly Left Wing Opinion. Yes there are right wing lunatics that hate Jews also but on the right it is a fringe group, on the left it is nearly a core belief. The biggest example of this is the left wing belief that the Republican party is run by "neo Cons" who they maintain are almost all Jewish.

Not again!

Nazis were sopcialists like Peoples' Democracies are democratic.

When you look at the US far left organizations, like the Weathermen, World Can't Wait and ANSWER, they, like the communists, are all about eliminating class distinctions internationally. When you look at the US far left organizations, like the John Birchers, the KKK, the National Alliance, andf Stormfront, they, like the fascists, are all about achieving racial purity and supremacy nationally.

Many liberals have unfortunately made the mistake of being seduced by communists into confusing completely respectable classical (John Stuart) Millian liberalism with leftism, and then claiming to be left wingers. It is equally regrettable to see many conservatives making the same kind of mistake, and allowing themselves to be seduced by fascists into confusing completely respectable (Edmund) Burkean conservatism with rightism, and then claiming to be right wingers. Because in either case, there is the danger that if enough people believe the lie, then it will become true, and all that nasty baggage will be brought on board. Indeed, much of it already has been - on both sides.

99 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:11:50am

re: #50 MJ

The Left is in love with Jew-hatred.
All they do is what the Soviet Union used to do: they use "Zionist" instead of Jew.
Same blood libels.
Same Protocols of the Elders of Zion.
Same hatred.

That sort of thing was begun in the Soviet Union when it was still Russia, and ruled by Czars and influenced by the antisemitism of the Russian Orthodox Catholic Church. It was the Czarist secret police who forged the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, so they could employ it as a justification for their pograms and seize coveted property from Russian Jews, whom they accused of being moneygrubbing because they were successful merchants and bankers - hardly the fault of the Jews, since they were forbidden from so many other types of employment.

100 rw in san diego  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:13:20am

re: #98 Salamantis

Thank you!

101 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:14:31am

The Nazis were absolutely an extreme right wing party. They started as a right wing party, they coopted other right wing parties to gain national power in Germany, they made alliances with right wing parties, and their enemies were all on the left wing.

The Nazis were right wing.

National "Socialism" does not correspond to Marxist socialism.

There are almost no reputable historians who classify the Nazis as left wing; this is pure historical revisionism, and it's false.

102 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:14:45am

re: #52 researchok

Huffpo mainstreams anti Israel and antisemitism for no other reason than those sentiments reflect current leftist ideology. That leftist ideology was born of pure hatred.

Israel is the only nation-state that was at first supported by the left and then rejected.

The left were only too happy to support Israel at her founding because they believed the transplanted communists and socialists would establish a 'People's Paradise' and would align themselves with the Communists. In fat, Russia was the first nation to cast a ballot in favor of the establishment of the State of Israel.

Of course, there was to be no communist 'People's Paradise' because in the end, the Israelis did what ever people do when given a choice- they chose freedom.

When the wall came down in eastern Europe, the same thing happened. The communists who had to run against candidates who embraced democratic ideals were badly beaten. Those who had tasted leftist ideologies wanted no part of it.

To this day there is not a single example of leftist supported ideology or nation that has not established itself by way of violent oppression, repression or intimidation. There is no such thing as utopia without the imposition of tyranny.

Yep, you got it. The Soviet antipathy to Israel was nothing about ethnicity and all about choice of governmental system. The Soviets thought that Israel would select communism, or at least socialism, and when they chose constitutional democracy instead, the Soviets lashed out like a spurned lover.

103 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:16:11am

re: #98 Salamantis

Had to correct an error (pimf!); bolded my correction.

Not again!

Nazis were sopcialists like Peoples' Democracies are democratic.

When you look at the US far left organizations, like the Weathermen, World Can't Wait and ANSWER, they, like the communists, are all about eliminating class distinctions internationally. When you look at the US far right organizations, like the John Birchers, the KKK, the National Alliance, andf Stormfront, they, like the fascists, are all about achieving racial purity and supremacy nationally.

Many liberals have unfortunately made the mistake of being seduced by communists into confusing completely respectable classical (John Stuart) Millian liberalism with leftism, and then claiming to be left wingers. It is equally regrettable to see many conservatives making the same kind of mistake, and allowing themselves to be seduced by fascists into confusing completely respectable (Edmund) Burkean conservatism with rightism, and then claiming to be right wingers. Because in either case, there is the danger that if enough people believe the lie, then it will become true, and all that nasty baggage will be brought on board. Indeed, much of it already has been - on both sides.

104 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:17:39am

re: #38 jorline

Posted on HuffPoo today.

totally agree with you skialethia . . . sanctions have to be imposed on israel . their nuclear arsenal declared and inspected . . . I am convinced the israelis will start a war with Iran just to keep on stealing land from the Palestinians . . . any country that supports israel is mental
Posted 10:23 AM on 05/12/2009


Two out of five posts.
HuffPoo=anti-Juice

Decoded message from above
Totally agree with you skialethia even though I have never read a thing about the Middle East or care too. I'm fat and its the Jews fault. I'm an idiot and its the Jews fault. bla blah and blabahdee blah !

105 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:21:11am

re: #101 Charles


Facism or Communism are just the same person to me as they are wearing different colered hats but manufactured by the same manufacturer

106 captdiggs  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:22:17am

The far left meets the far right on the one point they agree on, Jews and Israel.

107 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:23:20am

re: #96 neverquit

Another uninformed opinion from the general population who always seem to associate Nazis with the Right......

I get so tired of repeating it.

"NATIONAL SOCIALISM" means everything to the State. State controls EVERYTHING, schools, industries, banks, healthcare, media, EVERYTHING.

This is ANATHEMA for Conservative Ideals.

gheeesh

Wrong. The industries in the Third Reich continued to be owned by wealthy civilian industrialists throughout its short violent life; in the Soviet Union, these folks were either re-educated or shot, and the industries were seized by the State.

108 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:25:08am

re: #107 Salamantis

Wrong. The industries in the Third Reich continued to be owned by wealthy civilian industrialists throughout its short violent life; in the Soviet Union, these folks were either re-educated or shot, and the industries were seized by the State.


Both seem to be a bad choice

I think I'll choose door # 3

109 Blogforce one  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:25:57am

It's not just Huff po. Intense anti Israel bias is also at No Quarter as well .many people that I have come across who support Obama have now gone over to argue the Hamas viewpoint. the word is out among the left that if you don't criticize Israel you are a rad-con and a racist. The dangerous thing is that our youth is being brainwashed with this "world view" and current demographics in the U.S.A. suggest that Israel's support here is not going to last much longer. Look for a sellout of Israel coming soon to your MSM media screens brought to you by none other than the Uber messiah! POTUS!

110 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:26:00am

re: #101 Charles

There are almost no reputable historians who classify the Nazis as left wing; this is pure historical revisionism, and it's false.

I'm my own historian and I disagree 110% Charles. Marxist socialism is not the only socialism in the world. Nothing in your post refutes mine. Not one item. I don't rely on other historians for my opinions. I go by what I see. Perhaps Hitler appealed to the Right in the beginning, but he himself was not a Conservative or on the Right in his heart.

And Hitler's ideas for eliminating races were inspired by Lenin and Stalin's ideals, who based their genocidal ideals on class.

Rudolf Hoss (Architect of Auschwitz)

"The Reich Security Head Office issued to the commandants a full collection of reports concerning the Russian concentration camps. These described in great detail the conditions in, and organization of, the Russian camps, as supplied by former prisoners who had managed to escape. Great emphasis was placed on the fact that the Russians, by their massive employment of forced labor, had destroyed whole peoples".


Hitler's own words:

"We are socialists, we are enemies of today's capitalistic economic system for the exploitation of the economically weak, with its unfair salaries, with its unseemly evaluation of a human being according to wealth and property instead of responsibility and performance, and we are all determined to destroy this system under all conditions." --Adolf Hitler

(Speech of May 1, 1927. Quoted by Toland, 1976, p. 306)


He was a Leftist, and I have no doubts, believe whatever you like. Free Country.

111 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:27:29am

re: #97 Curtain of Oz

Let me ask you guys this: why is this news? As long as I can remember (let say 15 years), the left-wing has been the main perpetrator of Jew and Israel hatred. How many years did they jam Oslo down our throats. How many times do we need to hear "cycle of violence" on CNN? 9/10 you ask these people what the problem is, they will reply like a programed robot: "occupation". The left are useful idiots for the people planting seeds of Israel's annihilation.

Do you really think that Pat Buchanan, Ron Paul, and other right-wingers (as distinct from true Burkean conservatives) are Israel's friend?

The left has co-opted the decent Millian liberals and used them to attack Israel in retaliation for Israel choosing constitutional democracy over socialism. It's all about the choice of governmental system for them, and not about ethnicity. And they try to call Israel fascist, just like the Soviet Union tried to label the US as fascist.

112 lostlakehiker  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:27:36am

Jews appear in numbers beyond their `share' in the American elite. Doctors, lawyers, etc. The joke about Jewish mothers wanting their daughters to marry one or the other works, but only because there are enough such men to make the aspiration remotely plausible. But slots at the top of society are few, and when one group earns more than its `share', this can trigger resentment. Huffpuffers are proud men and women. They style themselves an elite. Their pride is injured by Jewish success.

This is something seen worldwide. Middleman minorities, (Indian merchants in Uganda, Chinese in Malaysia or Indonesia, Jews in Europe and America) who do disproportionately hold jobs that everybody would like, if only they could master its intricacies, resent the ones who actually do master those intricacies. The envious class persuades itself that it is not mastery, but intrigue and cheating, that has elevated the minority above the good common people, who are brought in as a prop to the argument.

The vanity of the Huffpuffers assures them that they are themselves anything but common, and their conscience whispers to them that they are anything but good. But no matter: they are anything but humble, and if they cannot earn a place in the sun, they will cut down whoever is shading them.

113 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:29:21am

re: #107 Salamantis

They were told what to produce, especially for the War Machine.

114 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:29:27am

re: #101 Charles

(although, i'd just add that it's illegitimate historical revisionism...there are those occasions when an historical interpretation can be legitimately revised...)

115 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:30:17am

re: #109 Blogforce one

re: #109 Blogforce one

Already has as far as the MSM is concerned but at a more accelerated pace in the last 5 years.

116 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:30:20am

re: #110 neverquit

I'm my own historian and I disagree 110% Charles. Marxist socialism is not the only socialism in the world. Nothing in your post refutes mine. Not one item. I don't rely on other historians for my opinions.

OK, so you admit you have nothing to back up your opinions except ... your opinions. You don't have a single historian on your side, you can't cite a single expert on Nazi Germany who agrees with you, you simply deny all the points I made ... but you still want to insist you're correct.

Gotcha.

117 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:31:30am

re: #112 lostlakehiker

very good analysis !

118 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:31:52am

re: #116 Charles

And your post is chalk full of citations?

119 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:35:26am

re: #113 neverquit

They were not owned by the state (for the nth time). Do you think Krupps was owned by the German state? Look it up.

120 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:35:50am

re: #118 neverquit

And your post is chalk full of citations?

Read any history of the Third Reich, or any analysis of fascism. Try Robert Paxton's "The Anatomy of Fascism," one of the best works on the subject, for starters.

You're going to find it very difficult to dig up any historians who don't classify the Nazis as right wing.

121 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:35:58am

re: #116 Charles

BY the way, you have provided not one refutation, of your own, to the following:

Explain to me how you feel Hitler's National Socialist Party was more aligned with Conservative Thought?

122 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:36:01am

I've always said that the Jew haters on the left are worse than the Jew haters on the right. Obviously, they're both scum, but there's more of them on the left, and since they're not skinheads or neo-nazis or white supremacists, they don't stand out like stormfront does, and leftwing Jew hatred is more mainstream. Also, more liberals sympathize with Islamic terrorists than Nazis or white supremacists do.

I'm partly Jewish, and if I had the choice to save either a Jew hating liberal from drowning or a Nazi, and if I could only save one and I had no choice but to save one of them (I would prefer to save none), I would save the Nazi without a doubt.

123 Blogforce one  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:37:11am

The MSM will pile on big time when The Uber-messiah demands Israel give back the Golan, all West Bank including E, Jerusalem and grant return to 4 million Arabs to Israel proper. Obama is severing the historical link between Israel and the USA. and all of these anti -Israel people like Larry Johnson over at NQ, ET Al are jockeying for jobs in the "NEW" dept. of state after Hillary is sidelined. She is the last bulwark of Israeli support at State.

124 Darwin Akbar  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:37:27am

In the leftist mindset, the world is divided into two groups and two groups only - victims and victimizers.

Just ask Obama and the Rev. Wright...they'd be happy to tell you.

Jews used to be victims, and the world was fine with that as it brutalized them and then shed crocodile tears about them.

At first, the left had sympathy for Israel out of guilt for the Holocaust and when little Israel defeated Arab armies. But once the Arabs and their enablers (like the UN) designated the Palestinians as the Perfect Victims, there had to be a victimizer.

Therefore, Israel is now the Oppressor and since for many "Jews" and "Israel" are one and the same, the left's innate Jew-hatred has been unleashed, and the old "dual-loyalty" charges and blood libels are recycled yet again.

Of course, these same leftists have no problem when large crowds of Hispanics march behind the flag of a country they've never lived (Mexico) and where their parents risked everything to escape from, since Hispanics are Victims, by definition; they can do no wrong and, like the Palestinians, are not responsible for their own bad acts.

125 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:37:42am

re: #119 J.S.

re: #119 J.S.

They were completely controlled by the State. Period. Just because they were allowed to make money, in the hands of the very few, as long as they did Hitler's bidding.

If you feel they existed in Free Market Capitalism, you're severely uninformed.

126 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:38:14am

re: #121 neverquit

BY the way, you have provided not one refutation, of your own, to the following:

Explain to me how you feel Hitler's National Socialist Party was more aligned with Conservative Thought?

What are you talking about? Who said National Socialism was "conservative?"

It was an extreme right wing ideology. This is a completely uncontroversial statement, and almost every reputable historian agrees with this classification.

127 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:38:27am

re: #122 Mad Mullah


I agree with your last paragraph and I'm Jewish. What I can't stand from the left is they pretend to be so cultured and oh so elitist

128 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:40:34am

re: #122 Mad Mullah

I've always said that the Jew haters on the left are worse than the Jew haters on the right. Obviously, they're both scum, but there's more of them on the left, and since they're not skinheads or neo-nazis or white supremacists, they don't stand out like stormfront does, and leftwing Jew hatred is more mainstream. Also, more liberals sympathize with Islamic terrorists than Nazis or white supremacists do.

I'm partly Jewish, and if I had the choice to save either a Jew hating liberal from drowning or a Nazi, and if I could only save one and I had no choice but to save one of them (I would prefer to save none), I would save the Nazi without a doubt.

Nothing is worse for a Jew than a Nazi.

129 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:40:43am

re: #120 Charles

Fascism

Fascist ideology was largely the work of the neo-idealist philosopher, Giovanni Gentile. It emphasized the subordination of the individual to a "totalitarian" state that was to control all aspects of national life. Violence as a creative force was an important characteristic of the Fascist philosophy. A special feature of Italian Fascism was the attempt to eliminate the class struggle from history through nationalism and the corporate state. Mussolini organized the economy and all "producers" - from peasants and factory workers to intellectuals and industrialists - into 22 corporations as a means of improving productivity and avoiding industrial disputes. Contrary to the regime's propaganda claims, the system ran poorly. Mussolini was forced into compromises with big business and the Roman Catholic Church. The corporate state was never fully implemented. The inherently expansionist, militaristic nature of Fascism contributed to imperialistic adventures in Ethiopia and the Balkans and ultimately to World War II.

Nazism
Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire. The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934.

130 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:41:12am

re: #128 Spare O'Lake

Nothing is worse for a Jew than a Nazi.

Nope, not for me.

131 bj1126  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:42:17am

I'm sorry but the folks that are caught off guard by the antisemitism of the left have been living with blinders on since Carter.

132 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:42:23am

re: #110 neverquit

I'm my own historian and I disagree 110% Charles. Marxist socialism is not the only socialism in the world. Nothing in your post refutes mine. Not one item. I don't rely on other historians for my opinions. I go by what I see. Perhaps Hitler appealed to the Right in the beginning, but he himself was not a Conservative or on the Right in his heart.

Yes he was. Far right wing, that is, but far from conservative. Fascism is at its very core an appeal to the geist or will of the homeland pureblood tribe; it is all about race. Just as Hirohito appealed to Nipponese racial superiority, and Mussolini appealed to the past glories of noble Rome, Hitler appealed to the Three Aryan Tribes (as outlined in Mein Kampf). Far leftists appeal instead to the eliminating of class distinctions, and ethnicity is not a primary concern of theirs (Soviet antipathy to Israel is based upon their choosing to be a constitutional democracy rather than socialist; since Jew, Karl Marx, had written the bibles of communism (Das Kapital, the Communist Manifesto), the Soviets mistakenly thought they would choose that governmental system).

And Hitler's ideas for eliminating races were inspired by Lenin and Stalin's ideals, who based their genocidal ideals on class.

Nope again; the idea of eugenics was first proposed by Plato, and the choice of Jews for elimination was based upon historical Christian antisemitism. At the time, the Blood Libel was still official Roman Catholic doctrine, and Martin Luther, te father of Protestantism, had written a hateful antisemitic pamphlet of his own called On The Jews And Their Lies. It was also based upon the fact that the Jews, like the Romany (Gypsies), were ethnically different immigrants, to be, according to the racial superiority doctrines of the Nazi Right, expunged before they polluted the purity of the Aryan bloodlines.

133 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:42:39am

re: #126 Charles

What are you talking about? Who said National Socialism was "conservative?"

It was an extreme right wing ideology. This is a completely uncontroversial statement, and almost every reputable historian agrees with this classification.

When most people refer to "right wing", they are referring to Conservatives. I really need to explain that?

134 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:42:54am

re: #121 neverquit

You quoted John Toland's biography of Hitler above -- I have the book, and I've read it. Toland makes it very clear throughout that the Nazis and Hitler were aligned with Germany's right wing.

There's nothing controversial about this. The one who's expressing an opinion counter to the experts is you.

135 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:43:08am

re: #127 Earth56

I agree with your last paragraph and I'm Jewish. What I can't stand from the left is they pretend to be so cultured and oh so elitist

See my #128.
Nothing. Nada. End of discussion.

136 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:43:53am

re: #113 neverquit

They were told what to produce, especially for the War Machine.

And kept the profits for themselves. You supply what is demanded. That's how business works.

137 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:44:43am

re: #130 Mad Mullah

Nope, not for me.

I would rather have my enemy wear the uniform (Nazi) than hide behind a suit pretending to be liberal (extreme letfists )

138 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:46:54am

re: #129 neverquit

Your own quote shows how wrong you are:

The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934.

139 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:47:04am

re: #121 neverquit

BY the way, you have provided not one refutation, of your own, to the following:

Explain to me how you feel Hitler's National Socialist Party was more aligned with Conservative Thought?

It wasn't. Conservativism is Burkean. It has nothing to do with the fascist right.

You confuse conservativism with fascist right-wingism, much as many liberals have confused Millian liberalism with communist leftism.

140 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:48:12am

re: #137 Earth56

I would rather have my enemy wear the uniform (Nazi) than hide behind a suit pretending to be liberal (extreme letfists )

Do you fear that the liberals will round up the Jews, put them in concentration camps, and then systematically kill them?
If you do not, then you are clearly wrong.
If you do, then you are insane.

141 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:51:18am

re: #125 neverquit

re: #119 J.S.

They were completely controlled by the State. Period. Just because they were allowed to make money, in the hands of the very few, as long as they did Hitler's bidding.

If you feel they existed in Free Market Capitalism, you're severely uninformed.

Both communism and fascism are totalitarianisms, so of course Krupp made what their state client ordered. But they got to keep the industry and the profits; in the Soviet Union, the state owned the industry, and was its own client, so there were no profits (you can't sell something to yourself and increase your total worth).

142 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:53:09am

re: #134 Charles

re: #134 Charles

Personally, I don't read National Socialism as to the Right, in direct SPITE to the accepted history. Not in any manner whatsover, and nothing you are Salamantis have posted demonstrates why it should be viewed as Right Wing - ie "Conservative in nature" - which is what most people think of when one says "Right Wing".

I think people get stuck, even historians, on the issue of xenophobia, and somehow associate that with American Conservatives.

I find nothing "Right" or "Conservative" in National Socialism of Fascism. I see only the State. The "State" screams socialism and totalitarianism.

Just because Nazis tolerated some of the industrialists, and allowed them to keep some of their money, that certainly did not make Nazis Free Market Capitalists.

143 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:53:57am

re: #141 Salamantis

Please watch the quote business...I did not write: "They were completely controlled by the State. Period. Just because they were allowed to make money, in the hands of the very few, as long as they did Hitler's bidding."

And, obviously, corporations were NOT "completely controlled by the State." And anyone who would make such a silly claim needs to go read a history book on the period in question.

144 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:54:47am

re: #138 Charles

Did Hitler control what was produced, where it was produced, how much was produced?

145 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:55:38am

re: #141 Salamantis

But they got to keep the industry and the profits;

They were allowed to keep what Hitler deemed they deserved.

146 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:56:31am

re: #129 neverquit

Fascism

Nazism
Nazism refers to the totalitarian Fascist ideology and policies espoused and practiced by Adolf Hitler and his National Socialist German Worker's Party from 1920-1945. Nazism stressed the superiority of the Aryan, its destiny as the Master Race to rule the world over other races, and a violent hatred of Jews, which it blamed for all of the problems of Germany. Nazism also provided for extreme nationalism which called for the unification of all German-speaking peoples into a single empire. The economy envisioned for the state was a form of corporative state socialism, although members of the party who were leftists (and would generally support such an economic system over private enterprise) were purged from the party in 1934.

Corporatism
Corporatism is a system of economic, political, and social organization where social groups or interest groups, such as business, ethnic, farmer, labour, military, or patronage groups, are joined together under a common governing jurisdiction to achieve societal harmony and promote coordinated development. Corporatism is based on the sociological concept of functionalism.

Syndicalism
Syndicalism is a type of economic system proposed as a replacement for capitalism and state socialism which utilizes federations of collectivist trade unions. For adherents, labor unions are the potential means of both overcoming capitalist exploitation of the workers and running society fairly in the interest of the majority. Industry in a syndicalist system would be run through co-operative alliances and mutual aid. Local syndicates would communicate with other syndicates through the Bourse du Travail (labor exchange) which would manage and transfer commodities.

147 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 10:59:09am

re: #142 neverquit

Personally, I don't read National Socialism as to the Right, in direct SPITE to the accepted history.

I get that, so I won't waste my time any more arguing with a closed mind.

148 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:05:35am

re: #140 Spare O'Lake

Do you fear that the liberals will round up the Jews, put them in concentration camps, and then systematically kill them?
If you do not, then you are clearly wrong.
If you do, then you are insane.


so basically I'm wrong either way from your choices.

and why insane ? Tell me why I should not fear the left ?

149 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:06:26am

re: #147 Charles

Maybe it is your mind that is closed.

I fail to see how cow-towing to the State is a rightist ideal.

150 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:07:06am

re: #148 Earth56

so basically I'm wrong either way from your choices.

and why insane ? Tell me why I should not fear the left ?

The choice you addressed was between the Nazis and the liberals.
There is no contest.

151 J.S.  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:08:01am

re: #144 neverquit

There was a complex relationship between big buisness and the Third Reich. Try Google books -- go look up "War and economy in the Third Reich" -- here's a link you can try...

152 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:10:25am

re: #150 Spare O'Lake


I would ask you to read some remarks from certain blogs etc. where leftists hang out. I can't tell any difference between them and some neo-nazis but at least the Nazi's don't pretend to be liberal in the original meaning.

153 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:10:55am

re: #149 neverquit

Maybe it is your mind that is closed.

I fail to see how cow-towing to the State is a rightist ideal.

Absolute dictatorial power, whether left or right, is for a democracy-lover worse than anything in between.

154 Mikey_Dallas  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:11:15am

I'm still waiting for the US version of the Reichstag fire, so BO can complete the putsch. He's got the brown shirt Acorn-ites, the puppet congress - he's even got his Joseph Goebbels in the entirety of the WH press corps.

Just needs one more good crisis to not go to waste.

The only difference is that Obama is the anti-nationalists. Instead of crowing about the glory of our people, he's apologizing for all of it.

Barry could I guess be the cross-breeding of Neville Chamberlain and Hitler. He wants to run the world by sacrificing his own country.

155 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:11:36am

re: #149 neverquit

Maybe it is your mind that is closed.

Whatever.

156 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:12:54am

re: #140 Spare O'Lake

Do you fear that the liberals will round up the Jews, put them in concentration camps, and then systematically kill them?
If you do not, then you are clearly wrong.
If you do, then you are insane.

Do you fear that Nazis will round up the Jews, put them in concentration camps, and then systematically kill them?

This isn't 1936 Germany, and there are dangers in the world today that are far more pressing than a handful of ignorant Nazis.

157 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:13:11am

re: #151 J.S.

I don't need lectured on the relationship between the industrialists and Hitler. They certainly were not free market capitalists.

National Socialism was all about the state, not individual rights. I don't need to read the accepted historians to understand that.

158 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:14:35am

No doubt that Arianna Huffingotn herself is no friend of the Jews (nor are the people she runs with), I think the comments on the Puffington host reflect the liberal/left hostility towards Jews and Israel.

159 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:16:33am

...

160 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:17:07am

re: #153 Spare O'Lake


agree 100 %

161 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:18:35am

re: #39 nyc redneck

i just don't have time to waste.
i heard her on a talk show and she sounds like such an attention seeking, phony opportunist.
how could she be up to anything worthwhile?

She sounds liek the woman from Green Acres.

162 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:19:20am

re: #153 Spare O'Lake

Thank you.

163 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:21:28am

re: #134 Charles

You quoted John Toland's biography of Hitler above -- I have the book, and I've read it. Toland makes it very clear throughout that the Nazis and Hitler were aligned with Germany's right wing.

There's nothing controversial about this. The one who's expressing an opinion counter to the experts is you.

There were right wing Nazis and left wing Nazis (Ernst Rohm, Gregor Strasser) who took the socialist part seriously. After the Night of the Long Knives (June 30, 1934) when the S.S. (with the support of the German Armed Forces) murdered Rohm and most of the leadership of the S.A., the Nazis stayed right-wing.

164 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:21:56am

re: #155 Charles

Whatever? Just enlighten me on how National Socialism is more to the "Right" than the "left".

165 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:22:03am

re: #142 neverquit

re: #134 Charles

Personally, I don't read National Socialism as to the Right, in direct SPITE to the accepted history. Not in any manner whatsover, and nothing you are Salamantis have posted demonstrates why it should be viewed as Right Wing - ie "Conservative in nature" - which is what most people think of when one says "Right Wing".

I think people get stuck, even historians, on the issue of xenophobia, and somehow associate that with American Conservatives.

I find nothing "Right" or "Conservative" in National Socialism of Fascism. I see only the State. The "State" screams socialism and totalitarianism.

Just because Nazis tolerated some of the industrialists, and allowed them to keep some of their money, that certainly did not make Nazis Free Market Capitalists.

The whole thing dates back to the German philosopher GWF Hegel. Those who accepted the reality of the master/slave dialectic found in his book Phenomenology of Mind and strove to transcend it by turning him on his head were called Left-Hegelians. Hegel believed that the history of humanity was the history of a God who had plunged himself into the Universe and amnesia evolving, through the evolution of the Universe, back to awareness of Himself, while the Left Hegelians thought that the evolution had not to do with humanity's evolving relation to God, but to humanity's evolving relation to the world. Through the mediation of Ludwig Feuerback, who anthropologized religion, Marx decided that this evolving world relation had to do with economics and the relation to the means of material production, and with politics and the relation between the rulers and the ruled (he wished to eliminate that master-slave distinction by eliminating ALL class distinctions). He was a collectivist bcause he saw rulers as individuals and the ruled as the masses, and wished to lift the yokes from their necks by eliminating their drivers.

The Right Hegelians, on the other hand, were more drawn to the Hegelian notion of a collective common will, or geist, shared by a people. This was found in Hegel's book Philosophy of Right, and was itself, in Hegel's conception, a shadow of God reflected in the spirit of humanity (thus tying into the evolution-of-God-to-self-awareness concept in Hegel's Phenomenology of Mind). Nietszche drew on this work in his own work The Will To Power. However, Nietszche was not himself an antisemite; he once remarked in a letter that he had hired a 'most superb and excellent Jewess' to edit his works, and added "Pity the European intelligence if the Jewish intelligence were ever subtracted from it!" These philosophers conceived of the people sharing the collective will as the human race, but also saw it as fragmented into contending tribal wills that competed in an existential struggle to dominate, a means by which the most correct or purest spirit was to be determined by its ability to drive the strongest will. For them, it was preferable to determine this in the arena of the marketplace of ideas, but they foresaw that this struggle would also regrettably but inevitably episodically erupt into wars of physical attrition. What was to them a bug became for the fascists a feature, and they of course embraced their own tribes, be they Aryan, Roman, or Nippon, as the pure tribe destined to dominate.

166 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:23:43am

Why does Alan Dershowitz continue to have faith in the inherent fairness and honesty of the Left?

167 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:24:15am

re: #157 neverquit

I don't need lectured on the relationship between the industrialists and Hitler. They certainly were not free market capitalists.

National Socialism was all about the state, not individual rights. I don't need to read the accepted historians to understand that.

There is more than one way to be a genocidal collectivist totalitarianism. It can be done on the basis of class (far right fascism), race (far left communism) or religion (fundamentalist theocracy).

168 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:24:49am

re: #156 Mad Mullah

Do you fear that Nazis will round up the Jews, put them in concentration camps, and then systematically kill them?

This isn't 1936 Germany, and there are dangers in the world today that are far more pressing than a handful of ignorant Nazis.

Maybe the Jews won't be first this time around, but among others, yes I do fear it. Just look at what's going on across the pond.

169 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:26:28am

re: #166 Joel

I assume it has to be because for decades Jews have been so entrenched in the Democratic party and way before it was hijacked.

I noticed you have an Israeli Jet pictured like me !

170 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:26:50am

Every time a conservative or Republican is ill or has died, the Puffington Host has too shut down comments because of all the vile spew that is posted by their commenters.

171 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:28:14am

re: #133 neverquit

When most people refer to "right wing", they are referring to Conservatives. I really need to explain that?

And they are doing so mistakenly. Do not embrace their mistake.

172 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:28:36am

re: #169 Earth56

I assume it has to be because for decades Jews have been so entrenched in the Democratic party and way before it was hijacked.

I noticed you have an Israeli Jet pictured like me !

Yes it is a F15 while you have a F16. I think you are right, too many people who are Jewish have a visceral commitment to the liberal/left that is to hard to break. That is why although I predict he will be a miserable president, Obama will be tough to beat because too many people have made an emotional commitment to him.

173 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:29:22am

re: #168 Spare O'Lake

Maybe the Jews won't be first this time around, but among others, yes I do fear it. Just look at what's going on across the pond.

What's going on across the pond? The majority of cases of anti-semitism and Jew attacks are not done by Nazis.

174 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:30:57am

re: #172 Joel


It reminds me of some sci-fi flicks like " Night of the living dead " or a Twilight Zone episode called "To serve man "

175 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:31:06am

re: #173 Mad Mullah

I fear for the Jews of Europe, particularly the Jews of Britain where anti Israelism/anti Semitism has become pretty much main stream.

176 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:32:16am

re: #174 Earth56

It reminds me of some sci-fi flicks like " Night of the living dead " or a Twilight Zone episode called "To serve man "

"To Serve Man" - one of my favorite episodes (Lloyd Bochner), I actually saw it when it was originally broadcast in 1962 (I was a little boy back then).

177 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:33:48am

re: #175 Joel

I fear for the Jews of Europe, particularly the Jews of Britain where anti Israelism/anti Semitism has become pretty much main stream.

That is true, and the point I was trying to make is that the threat to Jews in Europe is not coming from Nazis, it's from the Islamic fascists and their leftist enablers.

178 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:34:12am

re: #175 Joel

When I was in Israel during the Gaza conflict I watched Sky News/ France2 and the BBC and you might as well of put a swastika behind some of the commentators who were relentlessly bashing Israel. I'm for any critisism but I might as well of been watching the Arafat-channel

179 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:35:12am

re: #177 Mad Mullah

That is true, and the point I was trying to make is that the threat to Jews in Europe is not coming from Nazis, it's from the Islamic fascists and their leftist enablers.

I agree. It is coming form places such as The Royal Court Theatre which produces anti Israel plays such as "My Name Is Rachel Corrie", and "Seven Jewish Children".

180 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:36:04am

re: #149 neverquit

Maybe it is your mind that is closed.

I fail to see how cow-towing to the State is a rightist ideal.

It's Kow-towing. And Burkean conservatism was all about economics not being politically run (stay outta the pocketbook and bedroom). Just as Millian liberalism was all about personal freedoms not being governmentally infringed (stay outta the bedroom). But neither of those have anything to do with the totalitarian collectivisms of either far right fascism, or far left communism, or fundamentalist theocracy.

181 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:37:00am

re: #176 Joel


The same year I imigrated to the USA so you must be about my age

182 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:37:02am

re: #178 Earth56

When I was in Israel during the Gaza conflict I watched Sky News/ France2 and the BBC and you might as well of put a swastika behind some of the commentators who were relentlessly bashing Israel. I'm for any critisism but I might as well of been watching the Arafat-channel

Israel should ban those broadcast outlets. They are enemy outlets and need to be treated as such. I do not understand why Israel allows vile organs such as The Guardian and The Independent and 60 Minutes to have "correspondents" there.

183 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:37:21am

re: #181 Earth56

The same year I imigrated to the USA so you must be about my age

Where did you migrate from?

184 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:38:32am

re: #167 Salamantis

I can appreciate that more than how Charles has approached it.

To me, when I see contemporaries, like the camera.org guy refer "standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries", I get defensive because I feel that they are incorrectly associating that to American Conservatives.

That was the basis of my original comment.

Sorry if people got their pubes twisted over it.

185 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:38:47am

re: #173 Mad Mullah

What's going on across the pond? The majority of cases of anti-semitism and Jew attacks are not done by Nazis.

Majority? So if less than 50% is from the Nazis then they are OK?
Do not spew neo-Nazi apologist filth here.
FOAD.

186 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:38:48am

re: #171 Salamantis

Hence my original comment.

187 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:39:19am

re: #182 Joel


I agree in one way but Israel is a democracy and wants yo show the world it is but at times I say the hell with it. They actually booted CNN off the air but it wasn't the goverment but cable

188 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:40:30am

re: #183 Joel


Israel in 1962 at New York Harbor in what must have been the last time people still arrived by oceanliner

189 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:40:46am

re: #187 Earth56

They better wake up soon (now that the idiot Olmert is gone) that they are at war and all's fair in love and war as the saying goes. Anything that hurts the nation should be banned and false enemy reporting hurts the nation.

190 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:41:06am

re: #184 neverquit

I can appreciate that more than how Charles has approached it.

To me, when I see contemporaries, like the camera.org guy refer "standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries", I get defensive because I feel that they are incorrectly associating that to American Conservatives.

That was the basis of my original comment.

Sorry if people got their pubes twisted over it.

You reject out of hand all the major historians of the Third Reich, and all analysts of fascism, and you reject out of hand every attempt to show you that National Socialism was not "socialism." What's the point in arguing with you about it? You've said very clearly that you just won't believe anything anyone says about it, because your mind is made up.

And if you continue to toss out insults on top of this, your account isn't going to last much longer.

191 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:42:47am

re: #153 Spare O'Lake

Absolute dictatorial power, whether left or right, is for a democracy-lover worse than anything in between.

But of course. But so is anarchism (extreme indiovidualism). Constitutional democratic republics allow for the maximizing of individual freedoms and guaranteed rights while still allowing for nontyrannical electoral majority collective consensus to be reached and implemented.

CDRs are in the sensible center between extreme collectivism (whether left communism, right fascism, or fundamentalist theocracy) and extreme individualism (anarchism).

192 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:43:08am

re: #185 Spare O'Lake

Majority? So if less than 50% is from the Nazis then they are OK?
Do not spew neo-Nazi apologist filth here.
FOAD.

I am not a Nazi apologist, you retarded person. And where did I ever say that Nazis are ok?

You obviously have no clue about Europe, if you believe that Nazis are the greatest threat to Jews over there. Nazis are a joke compared to real threats that Jews face in 2009.

193 Peter_Wiggin  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:43:18am

I've known this for awhile. Just go to the comments section of any post by Dershowitz. They usually don't bother reading his article, just spew vile hatred of him and Israel.

194 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:43:25am

re: #189 Joel

They better wake up soon (now that the idiot Olmert is gone) that they are at war and all's fair in love and war as the saying goes. Anything that hurts the nation should be banned and false enemy reporting hurts the nation.

I'm in agreement there more and more as I find the media more of an enemy the enemy itself. My feelings go back to the Iraqi Nuclear strike of 1981 and how the press demonized Israel.

195 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:43:51am

re: #185 Spare O'Lake

Majority? So if less than 50% is from the Nazis then they are OK?
Do not spew neo-Nazi apologist filth here.
FOAD.

Sorry but he is right. The threat to the Jews and to Israel is coming not from odious neo Nazis (of which there are thankfully few) but from the Left and their Islamofascist allies. This sort of reminds me of the movie The Sum of All Fears where pc Hollywood took the villains (Arabs in the book) and changed them to neo Nazis.

196 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:44:39am

re: #194 Earth56

I'm in agreement there more and more as I find the media more of an enemy the enemy itself. My feelings go back to the Iraqi Nuclear strike of 1981 and how the press demonized Israel.

Yeah the New York Times and Time Magazine were particularly vicious.

197 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:45:33am

re: #192 Mad Mullah

I am not a Nazi apologist, you retarded person. And where did I ever say that Nazis are ok?

You obviously have no clue about Europe, if you believe that Nazis are the greatest threat to Jews over there. Nazis are a joke compared to real threats that Jews face in 2009.


I have to agree here as at least Nazi's don't hide behind the curtains

198 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:46:59am

re: #190 Charles

I reject the claims that National Socialism as a "rightist" philosophy. To me, the control it exhibited by the state, onto it's citizenry, is more associated to Leftist Ideals than Rightist Ideals. Yes. If that is in spite of the accepted history, that is what I believe. It's not the first, nor the last time I will dispute accepted history.

I feel that Hitler tolerated the industrialists as much as he had too, and no more. If that meant them keeping some of their money to make his life easier, that's what he did.

I apologize humbly if you, or anyone else, was insulted by my comments. I was trying to be humorous, not angry or insulting.

199 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:47:14am

re: #196 Joel

Yeah the New York Times and Time Magazine were particularly vicious.


The New York Times I still use for as cat liners and Time I still subscribe to so I can read what some idiots have to say otherwise I like the Wall Street Journal.

200 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:48:16am

re: #167 Salamantis

There is more than one way to be a genocidal collectivist totalitarianism. It can be done on the basis of class (far right fascism), race (far left communism) or religion (fundamentalist theocracy).

PIMF again; here it is corrected:

There is more than one way to be a genocidal collectivist totalitarianism. It can be done on the basis of race (far right fascism), class (far left communism) or religion (fundamentalist theocracy).

201 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:49:00am

re: #193 Peter_Wiggin


You should try reading the comments section of CBS.com whenever a story comes around about Israel or Jews.................

202 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:49:18am

re: #199 Earth56

The New York Times I still use for as cat liners and Time I still subscribe to so I can read what some idiots have to say otherwise I like the Wall Street Journal.

Don't even spend your money on them and Newsweek magazine. I have not bought the New York Times since Feb. 2004 when I was apartment hunting.

203 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:49:39am

re: #201 Earth56

You should try reading the comments section of CBS.com whenever a story comes around about Israel or Jews.................

or The Guardian or the BBC!

204 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:49:47am

The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich - William L. Shirer

Berlin Diary - William L. Shirer

History of the Second World War - Basil Liddell-Hart

_itler - Konrad Heiden

_itler - Alan Bullock

_itler - Alan Wykes

_itler's War Directives - HR Trevor-Roper

_itler as War Lord - Franz Halder

_itler Youth - HW Koch

SS and Gestapo - Roger Manville

Sword and Swastika - Telford Taylor

The Black Angels - Rupert Butler

The Second World War - John Keegan

The SS (1922-1945) - Gerald Reitlinger

The early nazi's considered themselves to be a "third way" only allying themselves with the "extreme" right, bankers, industrialists, and the Wermacht (in that order), as a way to defeat their common enemy, the Communists.

The Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact of 1939 came as a very rude shock to most of those right-wing allies when it was first announced. It also seriously confused pre-war political issues within the US and Europe west of the Rhine.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

===

Don't make me turn this bookshelf around again old man.

;),
R

205 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:51:06am

re: #192 Mad Mullah

I am not a Nazi apologist, you retarded person. And where did I ever say that Nazis are ok?

You obviously have no clue about Europe, if you believe that Nazis are the greatest threat to Jews over there. Nazis are a joke compared to real threats that Jews face in 2009.

So you will presumably now admit that Nazis are indeed a threat to Jews and to any other minority. A much greater threat than liberals.
You stupid tool.

206 Peter_Wiggin  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:51:19am

re: #201 Earth56

You should try reading the comments section of CBS.com whenever a story comes around about Israel or Jews.................

I need to be in a special masochistic mood to read that stuff. My local weekly newspaper loves to print opinion pages when Israel is big in the news, guaranteed to be disgusting.

207 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:52:19am

re: #192 Mad Mullah

I am not a Nazi apologist, you retarded person. And where did I ever say that Nazis are ok?

You obviously have no clue about Europe, if you believe that Nazis are the greatest threat to Jews over there. Nazis are a joke compared to real threats that Jews face in 2009.

You wouldn't happen to be one of those Pamela moles who thinks we oughtta join hands with euroneonazis against Islamists in Europe, would you?

208 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:52:22am

re: #204 Render

Agreed.

209 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:52:39am

re: #202 Joel

Don't even spend your money on them and Newsweek magazine. I have not bought the New York Times since Feb. 2004 when I was apartment hunting.


I gave up on News Weak 8 years ago. I'm down to 3 publications after receiving up to 15. I get the Wall Street Journal delivered for $ 129 per year which is a bargain

210 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:53:54am

re: #209 Earth56

I gave up on News Weak 8 years ago. I'm down to 3 publications after receiving up to 15. I get the Wall Street Journal delivered for $ 129 per year which is a bargain

I used to get The New York Sun before it went out of business last year.

211 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:55:02am

re: #173 Mad Mullah

From what I've read, the anti-Semitic attacks seems to be running about 50/50 regarding the perps. About half Islamic based and about half neo-nazi based.

[Link: www.tau.ac.il...]

HELP
YOUR
SELF,
R

212 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:55:13am

re: #210 Joel


Yes......that was great paper but I couldn't figure out how they survived for as long as they did

213 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:57:01am

re: #212 Earth56

Yes......that was great paper but I couldn't figure out how they survived for as long as they did

They're deeply missed (at least by me). I like The NY Post but it gets too sensationalistic and its shilllng for Caroline Kennedy to take Hillary's place as Senator was bizarre.

214 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:57:05am

re: #205 Spare O'Lake

So you will presumably now admit that Nazis are indeed a threat to Jews and to any other minority. A much greater threat than liberals.
You stupid tool.

Not at all, liberals and Islamo-fascists are a much greater threat to Jews than Nazis. You are simply wrong.

215 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:59:12am

re: #198 neverquit

I reject the claims that National Socialism as a "rightist" philosophy. To me, the control it exhibited by the state, onto it's citizenry, is more associated to Leftist Ideals than Rightist Ideals. Yes. If that is in spite of the accepted history, that is what I believe. It's not the first, nor the last time I will dispute accepted history.

I feel that Hitler tolerated the industrialists as much as he had too, and no more. If that meant them keeping some of their money to make his life easier, that's what he did.

I apologize humbly if you, or anyone else, was insulted by my comments. I was trying to be humorous, not angry or insulting.

You STILL insist upon confusing rightism with conservativism, and leftism with liberalism. And you STILL insist upon confusing totalitarian collectivism with communism/socialism, even though both Nazism/fascism and Islamofascism are totalitarian collectivisms, too.

Conservatism of the kind embraced by Goldwater, Buckley and Reagan doesn't have jack shit to do with right wingism; classical conservatism originated with Edmund Burke. Just like liberalism of the kind embraced by JFK and Scoop Jackson doesn't have jack shit to do with leftism; classical liberalism originated with Jon Stuart Mill.

216 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 11:59:52am

re: #207 Salamantis

You wouldn't happen to be one of those Pamela moles who thinks we oughtta join hands with euroneonazis against Islamists in Europe, would you?

No, I never said that making alliances with Nazis is a good idea. I also don't read her site. Nazis just don't register high on my list of things that I need to worry about.

I on the other hand might ask certain people here who are downplaying the liberal and Islamic threat, while greatly exaggerating the Nazi threat, as to what their motives are?

217 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:00:05pm

re: #214 Mad Mullah

Not at all, liberals and Islamo-fascists are a much greater threat to Jews than Nazis. You are simply wrong.

I agree. Nazis and neo Nazis are a tiny minority, left wing loons are found in the universities, the media, the arts, etc. and a far bigger threat. the only right wingers who are a threat are pseudo-right wingers such as the Pat Buchanan crowd and the paleocons have much in common with the Left. Buchanan's magazine, outside of its dislike of immigration and abortion, reads like The Nation Magazine.

218 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:01:33pm

re: #213 Joel

They're deeply missed (at least by me). I like The NY Post but it gets too sensationalistic and its shilllng for Caroline Kennedy to take Hillary's place as Senator was bizarre.


I used to read the Post and they have some decent columnists but they are in competion with the Daily News only

219 Mikey_Dallas  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:04:03pm

To hell with the Nazi talk.

Let's talk cage match. Knockdown dragout no holds barred.

Arianna Huffington vs Nancy Pelosi

100 Quatloos on the bit@h from Congress

220 Charles Johnson  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:04:11pm

re: #217 Joel

the only right wingers who are a threat are pseudo-right wingers such as the Pat Buchanan crowd and the paleocons have much in common with the Left.

If you think Pat Buchanan is a "pseudo" right winger, you might want to let right wing news sources like Fox News, World Net Daily, Townhall.com, Human Events, etc. etc, know about that -- because they seem to believe Buchanan is a very genuine right winger. Sean Hannity introduces Buchanan as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

221 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:06:23pm

re: #216 Mad Mullah

No, I never said that making alliances with Nazis is a good idea. I also don't read her site. Nazis just don't register high on my list of things that I need to worry about.

I on the other hand might ask certain people here who are downplaying the liberal and Islamic threat, while greatly exaggerating the Nazi threat, as to what their motives are?

It's the LEFTIST and IslamIST threat. Liberals (root word liberty) abhor threats to personal freedoms, while U.S. leftists have yet to meet a totalitarianism or theocracy with which they have not become enthralled. And there's a big difference between being IslamIC and being IslamIST; most IslamICS just wanna earn their paychecks and raise their families like the rest of us.

222 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:07:03pm

re: #215 Salamantis

You STILL insist upon confusing rightism with conservativism, and leftism with liberalism. And you STILL insist upon confusing totalitarian collectivism with communism/socialism, even though both Nazism/fascism and Islamofascism are totalitarian collectivisms, too.

Conservatism of the kind embraced by Goldwater, Buckley and Reagan doesn't have jack shit to do with right wingism; classical conservatism originated with Edmund Burke. Just like liberalism of the kind embraced by JFK and Scoop Jackson doesn't have jack shit to do with leftism; classical liberalism originated with Jon Stuart Mill.

Perhaps you are right, but when I hear "collectivism", I don't think of anything associated with the Right. I guess that is my hang up.

Not sure when I insulted anyone......

223 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:07:16pm

re: #217 Joel


and believe me, If you have been to some casual gatherings as I have some people say the most vile things from their asses.

I can't wait for the lady from a few years ago who was praising Hugo Chavez and demonizing America and how great he was blah blah blah and I said to her that I hope to meet her again in 4 years and we'll see how great he was to his people.

224 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:08:59pm

re: #216 Mad Mullah

No, I never said that making alliances with Nazis is a good idea. I also don't read her site. Nazis just don't register high on my list of things that I need to worry about.

I on the other hand might ask certain people here who are downplaying the liberal and Islamic threat, while greatly exaggerating the Nazi threat, as to what their motives are?

Set my mind at ease.
Let me hear you unreservedly condemn and reject any alliance with Nazism or Fascism in the struggle against Islamofascism.

225 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:09:33pm

re: #208 neverquit

Then you agree that they (the nazis) were allied with the German Right of the time, even if they themselves were not exactly Right or Left.

===

Note that those very alliance tactics are being practiced today by the ideological descendent's of the original Nazis. Also note that more then a little of what we read from certain "right-wing" organizations and news outlets in Europe is heavily propagandized to present an image of complete government failure to defend the public from the Islamic hordes.

There is a large kernal of truth to that, and it's (Islamic radicalism) bad over there, but it's nowhere near as bad as the VB/NP apologists and supporters are claiming.

That's all standard operating procedure for the National Socialists and has been since 1928 or so.

WHY
WE
FIGHT,
R

226 Earth56  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:11:05pm

re: #220 Charles


Who Pat ?
Thats because he has a way of talking thats so mesmerizing and hypnotic......azzwipe !

227 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:11:44pm

re: #220 Charles

I get sick whenever I see PB on Fox and I have emailed Hannity about it several times, however he is on an awful lot on MSNBC because he hates Republicans, the Bush family, Israel, and is an isolationist and an economic protectionist - causes that are dear to the left's heart. One of his editors (I think he actually is the managing editor) Scott McConnell (who used to write great columns for the New York Post during the Eric Breindel editorial page era) endorsed Kerry in 2004 and Obama in 2008 and the reason he did was for isolationist reasons. Another contributor Charley Reese is a regular writer for antiwar.com (to say nothing of Justin Raimundo who writes for both).

If you have the stomach for it you can peruse some of the articles in his magazine (online) and as I wrote, you will find that it reads an awful lot like The Nation.

228 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:13:27pm

re: #225 Render

I agree that, as history demonstrates, Hitler would align himself with whomever he had to, in order to achieve his goals.

Time and labels change.

My fear, when I read comments like those from camera.org, that state:

"age-old canards about Jews that has long been standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries"

I fear words like this get incorrectly associated with American Conservatives. Hence my position.

229 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:16:16pm

re: #227 Joel

I get sick whenever I see PB on Fox and I have emailed Hannity about it several times, however he is on an awful lot on MSNBC because he hates Republicans, the Bush family, Israel, and is an isolationist and an economic protectionist - causes that are dear to the left's heart. One of his editors (I think he actually is the managing editor) Scott McConnell (who used to write great columns for the New York Post during the Eric Breindel editorial page era) endorsed Kerry in 2004 and Obama in 2008 and the reason he did was for isolationist reasons. Another contributor Charley Reese is a regular writer for antiwar.com (to say nothing of Justin Raimundo who writes for both).

If you have the stomach for it you can peruse some of the articles in his magazine (online) and as I wrote, you will find that it reads an awful lot like The Nation.

It was Charles Lindbergh and his America First! movement that campaigned against the US involving itself in WW II against the Nazis, on isolationist principles.

230 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:18:38pm

re: #229 Salamantis

It was Charles Lindbergh and his America First! movement that campaigned against the US involving itself in WW II against the Nazis, on isolationist principles.

Yeah what about the Left Communists who were against aid to Britain until Operation Barbarossa?

231 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:19:15pm

re: #228 neverquit

I agree that, as history demonstrates, Hitler would align himself with whomever he had to, in order to achieve his goals.

Time and labels change.

My fear, when I read comments like those from camera.org, that state:

"age-old canards about Jews that has long been standard rhetoric of far-right reactionaries"

I fear words like this get incorrectly associated with American Conservatives. Hence my position.

I would NEVER confuse the far (or any other) right with true classical conservatism; I would hope that after this discussion, that you won't, either, and will strive to set others straight whenever you encounter them suffering the same confusion.

232 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:21:00pm

re: #231 Salamantis

That sir, was my whole point!

It is my right to hold views contrary to accepted history either way.

233 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:22:37pm

re: #224 Spare O'Lake

re: #216 Mad Mullah

No, I never said that making alliances with Nazis is a good idea. I also don't read her site. Nazis just don't register high on my list of things that I need to worry about.

I on the other hand might ask certain people here who are downplaying the liberal and Islamic threat, while greatly exaggerating the Nazi threat, as to what their motives are?


Set my mind at ease.
Let me hear you unreservedly condemn and reject any alliance with Nazism or Fascism in the struggle against Islamofascism.

*crickets*

234 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:23:04pm

re: #224 Spare O'Lake

Set my mind at ease.
Let me hear you unreservedly condemn and reject any alliance with Nazism or Fascism in the struggle against Islamofascism.

I will most certainly not, as I find being asked to do that in the first place pretty offensive. I've already stated my mind numerous times on here regarding that subject in previous posts on other threads.

235 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:23:27pm

re: #230 Joel

Yeah what about the Left Communists who were against aid to Britain until Operation Barbarossa?

Capitalism was the system that Marx originally saw Communism as having to overthrow and transcend; it was only after Hitler's betrayal of the Hitler-Stalin Pact that the Soviets grasped that Nazism was their more immediate existential threat.

Not that capitalism wasn't an existential threat to Soviet communism; we did, after all, eventually effect their dissolution.

236 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:24:32pm

re: #232 neverquit

That sir, was my whole point!

It is my right to hold views contrary to accepted history either way.

Sure; this is America. People are free to be mistaken here.

237 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:25:16pm

re: #98 Salamantis

Many liberals have unfortunately made the mistake of being seduced by communists into confusing completely respectable classical (John Stuart) Millian liberalism with leftism, and then claiming to be left wingers. It is equally regrettable to see many conservatives making the same kind of mistake, and allowing themselves to be seduced by fascists into confusing completely respectable (Edmund) Burkean conservatism with rightism, and then claiming to be right wingers. Because in either case, there is the danger that if enough people believe the lie, then it will become true, and all that nasty baggage will be brought on board. Indeed, much of it already has been - on both sides.


This is pretty well put. Regardless of where Nazis and Communists lie, American politics is quite different than European. Unfortunately, I think the labels are stuck for good, and conservatives will feel forced to defend "the right" because that is what they are always called, when there is little connection from there to here.

238 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:25:46pm

re: #234 Mad Mullah

I will most certainly not, as I find being asked to do that in the first place pretty offensive. I've already stated my mind numerous times on here regarding that subject in previous posts on other threads.

So you agree that it would be disastrous for antijihadis to ally with the Vlaams Belang; right?

239 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:25:59pm

re: #235 Salamantis

Capitalism was the system that Marx originally saw Communism as having to overthrow and transcend; it was only after Hitler's betrayal of the Hitler-Stalin Pact that the Soviets grasped that Nazism was their more immediate existential threat.

Not that capitalism wasn't an existential threat to Soviet communism; we did, after all, eventually effect their dissolution.

Gee you think that 3 million German troops invading over a 3,000 mile front would finally wake them up? Did they ever read Mein Kampf? Stalin always considered the capitalist West to be his enemy and would have gladly have stayed on the sideline while Germany and France and Britain bled each other white.

240 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:27:48pm

re: #238 Salamantis

So you agree that it would be disastrous for antijihadis to ally with the Vlaams Belang; right?

I've already stated my opinions on that numerous times.

241 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:29:09pm

re: #237 nikis-knight

This is pretty well put. Regardless of where Nazis and Communists lie, American politics is quite different than European. Unfortunately, I think the labels are stuck for good, and conservatives will feel forced to defend "the right" because that is what they are always called, when there is little connection from there to here.

There is some connection on the fringes; the Weathermen, World Won't Wait and ANSWER are committed to the dissolution of class distinctions, while John Birchers, the KKK, the National Alliance and Stormfront are unapologetic racial purists.

242 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:31:00pm

re: #239 Joel

Gee you think that 3 million German troops invading over a 3,000 mile front would finally wake them up? Did they ever read Mein Kampf? Stalin always considered the capitalist West to be his enemy and would have gladly have stayed on the sideline while Germany and France and Britain bled each other white.

Which is why Hitler's decision to prosecute a two-front war was a disastrous strategy that hastened his regime's doom. Thank goodness.

243 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:32:44pm

re: #241 Salamantis

There is some connection on the fringes; the Weathermen, World Won't Wait and ANSWER are committed to the dissolution of class distinctions, while John Birchers, the KKK, the National Alliance and Stormfront are unapologetic racial purists.

And we should insist that the former are not liberals, but communists, and that the latter are not conservatives, but fascists. Which is in fact the truth.

244 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:33:33pm

re: #242 Salamantis

Which is why Hitler's decision to prosecute a two-front war was a disastrous strategy that hastened his regime's doom. Thank goodness.

Britain while not surrendered, was no longer a threat to Nazi Germany in June 1941,. He attacked the USSR for a variety of reasons primarily as it was the one power on the continent that could still challenge him.

245 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:33:49pm

re: #236 Salamantis

That's right. Sort of. It does not make me wrong.

Hitler's Germany was it's own thing. It was not right or left. It used the right and left and the middle, to achieve goals, sometimes completely illogical and emotional goals, and in the end unclassifiable in these terms. imho.

If you're happy with wanting to be "right" per se, I could care less.

246 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:34:15pm

re: #240 Mad Mullah

I've already stated my opinions on that numerous times.

Without now stating what that opinion is, I notice.

247 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:34:19pm

re: #240 Mad Mullah

I've already stated my opinions on that numerous times.

Why they persist on baiting you is beyond me.

248 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:36:44pm

re: #246 Salamantis

Without now stating what that opinion is, I notice.

Use the search function, I hear that it is quite useful.

249 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:36:49pm

re: #244 Joel

Britain while not surrendered, was no longer a threat to Nazi Germany in June 1941,. He attacked the USSR for a variety of reasons primarily as it was the one power on the continent that could still challenge him.

Britain was like a huge aircraft carrier, allowing the basing of US forces. Hitler should have occupied and secured Britain and Ireland before any move against the Soviets. But of course, he moved against the Soviets in 1939, two years befiore the US entered the war; I guess he thought that the America Firsters would be able to keep us out of it.

Pearl Harbor put an end to that.

250 hazzyday  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:36:59pm

Ariana has stated she moved away from her right wing because she started to believe that the United States needed more government control of people's lives. She will be looking to innoculate her sleight of hand anti - semitism into public opinion and into government agencies.

251 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:38:48pm

re: #249 Salamantis

Britain was like a huge aircraft carrier, allowing the basing of US forces. Hitler should have occupied and secured Britain and Ireland before any move against the Soviets. But of course, he moved against the Soviets in 1939, two years befiore the US entered the war; I guess he thought that the America Firsters would be able to keep us out of it.

Pearl Harbor put an end to that.

He was not ready for that sort of war in 1939. People forget how cautious the OKW and OKH was in those days even after the victory in Poland.

252 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:39:42pm

re: #247 Joel

Why they persist on baiting you is beyond me.

Some losers have nothing better to do with their time I suppose.

253 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:39:55pm

re: #167 Salamantis

There is more than one way to be a genocidal collectivist totalitarianism. It can be done on the basis of class (far right fascism), race (far left communism) or religion (fundamentalist theocracy).


Genuine question--then why does the distinction matter? If the results are so similar, why do seemingly esoteric philosophical justifications form the labels, rather than descriptors based on goals?
I guess so people can know which group will be the scapegoats to avoid?

254 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #245 neverquit

That's right. Sort of. It does not make me wrong.

Hitler's Germany was it's own thing. It was not right or left. It used the right and left and the middle, to achieve goals, sometimes completely illogical and emotional goals, and in the end unclassifiable in these terms. imho.

If you're happy with wanting to be "right" per se, I could care less.

Far right fascism is racial purity based, and because of this, it is tied to the soil of the tribe, and to their dominion of that soil, and is therefore nationalist. Far left communism is class dissolution based, and because of this, it is committed to the dissolution of class distinctions everywhere, for all humanity, and is therefore internationalist.

255 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:40:01pm

re: #239 Joel

Saw time...

"Gee you think that 3 million German troops invading over a 3,000 mile front would finally wake them up?"

-It did, rather brutally. It also served to remove the American Communist Party of the time from its shaky alliance with the America First/German Bund crowd.

"Did they ever read Mein Kampf?"

-Some had, but it wasn't exactly a best-seller at the time, outside of Germany.

"Stalin always considered the capitalist West to be his enemy..."

-That's correct.

"...and would have gladly have stayed on the sideline while Germany and France and Britain bled each other white."

-That is not. Stalin and the Stavka had territorial acquisitions in the West that they fully intended to pursue (see The Road to Stalingrad - John Erickson) regardless of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Finland, the Baltic States, the rest of Poland, among others). The nazi's just pre-empted his plans.

-Neither the Left nor the Right walk away from WW2 history without being drenched in blood from head to foot.

EHUD
AVRIEL,
R

256 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:40:30pm

re: #234 Mad Mullah

I will most certainly not, as I find being asked to do that in the first place pretty offensive. I've already stated my mind numerous times on here regarding that subject in previous posts on other threads.

You mean like this one? [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Or this? [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It seems pretty clear to me that you are a Nazi sympathizer in all but name, and that is only because you don't have the balls to admit it.

257 neverquit  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:40:32pm

re: #243 Salamantis

I think you give people too much credit to know the difference.

This explains my defensive tone.

258 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:41:11pm

re: #244 Joel

The Royal Navy would beg to differ...

SINK
THE
BISMARK,
R

259 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:42:20pm

re: #253 nikis-knight

Genuine question--then why does the distinction matter? If the results are so similar, why do seemingly esoteric philosophical justifications form the labels, rather than descriptors based on goals?
I guess so people can know which group will be the scapegoats to avoid?

Yep, because far right fascisms attack people based upon race, far right communisms attack people based upon class, and fundamentalist theocracies attack people based upon religion.

260 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:42:37pm

255 Render
-That is not. Stalin and the Stavka had territorial acquisitions in the West that they fully intended to pursue (see The Road to Stalingrad - John Erickson) regardless of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact (Finland, the Baltic States, the rest of Poland, among others). The nazi's just pre-empted his plans.

According to Khruschev, Stalin was livid in rage the day the French signed the armistice. He wanted the war in the West to go on and on while both sides bled each other white and then the Red Army could roll in.

261 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:43:55pm

re: #258 Render

The Royal Navy would beg to differ...

SINK
THE
BISMARK,
R

Napoleon was defeated at Waterloo, not Trafalgar

Georges Clemenceau to Winston Churchill, 1911

262 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:44:48pm

I screwd up my psot #260. I did not mean to strike through.

263 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:46:18pm

re: #258 Render

The Royal Navy would beg to differ...

SINK
THE
BISMARK,
R

It was Moscow and Waterloo that ended the Napoleonic threat, not Trafalgar. Land battles are what brings an enemy to its knees.

264 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:48:40pm

For every dead American and Briish soldier in Europe there were 76 dead Soviet soldiers. The war could not have been won without the help of that murderer Stalin.

265 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:48:49pm

re: #243 Salamantis

And we should insist that the former are not liberals, but communists, and that the latter are not conservatives, but fascists. Which is in fact the truth.

True, but would that they make the distinction clearer. Dennis Prager has lamented often how when he was younger there were liberal anti-leftists, but increasingly the motto is "no enemies to the left" (Don't quote him on that, that is the best I recall him saying it). I didn't understand at the time, for democrats=left=liberal and republicans=right=conservative is pretty much the standard narrative pushed by our media and political culture.

266 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:50:22pm

re: #256 Spare O'Lake

You mean like this one? [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

Or this? [Link: littlegreenfootballs.com...]

It seems pretty clear to me that you are a Nazi sympathizer in all but name, and that is only because you don't have the balls to admit it.

You're clearly an idiot. If anybody wishes to conclude that I am a Nazi sympathizer after reading anything that I've written on this site, including those links which you link to, then feel free.

I don't have to convince you or any other mentally challenged people of anything. I tell it like I see it, and if you have a problem with me saying that Nazis are not the worst thing in the world at the moment, then so be it.

267 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:50:48pm

re: #257 neverquit

I think you give people too much credit to know the difference.

This explains my defensive tone.

On the contrasry; if more people knew the difference, both liberals and conservatives would be having less problems with the confusion.

And in both cases, I believe that it was an intentionally propagandized confusion, by fascists trying to infiltrate the conservative movement, and by communists trying to infiltrate the liberal movement. Just like the euroneonazis are trying to infiltrate the antijihadi movement. And in all these cases, the parasite's goal is to piggyback upon its host's credibility, and ends up vampirizing it.

268 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:52:30pm

re: #266 Mad Mullah

You're clearly an idiot. If anybody wishes to conclude that I am a Nazi sympathizer after reading anything that I've written on this site, including those links which you link to, then feel free.

I don't have to convince you or any other mentally challenged people of anything. I tell it like I see it, and if you have a problem with me saying that Nazis are not the worst thing in the world at the moment, then so be it.

Ze "mentally challenged" should be rounded up and eliminated, jah?

269 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:53:15pm

re: #265 nikis-knight

True, but would that they make the distinction clearer. Dennis Prager has lamented often how when he was younger there were liberal anti-leftists, but increasingly the motto is "no enemies to the left" (Don't quote him on that, that is the best I recall him saying it). I didn't understand at the time, for democrats=left=liberal and republicans=right=conservative is pretty much the standard narrative pushed by our media and political culture.

They begins with we. Which is why I have been laboring on this thread to clarify these distinctions. I sincerely hope that other Lizards will do the same.

270 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:56:37pm

Hitler had Darwin's books burned, outlawed abortion, and imprisoned and killed gays. Islamists are creationists, have criminalized abortion, and kill gays.

Socons should still consider neither fascists nor Islamists to be their friends. Because they aren't.

271 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 12:58:12pm

re: #268 Spare O'Lake

Ze "mentally challenged" should be rounded up and eliminated, jah?

No, I don't think that you should be rounded up and eliminated. It would be a waste of Zyklon-B. And I'm part Jewish, you fool. Comparing a Jew to a Nazi shows
your complete lack of intelligence.

272 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:00:21pm

re: #261 Joel

Operation Sea Lion had a couple of requirements before it could proceed.

(1) The defeat of the Royal Navy and (2) the RAF. The RAF (the Few, the Proud) won the Battle of Britain, and the Royal Navy, though battered, bloody, and stretched around the planet, remained in position to menace the Channel.

No sweat on your #260 strike through, understandable.

THE PRICE
OF ADMIRALTY,
R

273 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:02:52pm

re: #269 Salamantis

I don't mean just the distinction, I mean the differences. Like the thread topic; leftist anti-semitism is bleeding into liberalism, blurry the difference, just as leftist communist sympathies eroded much of the liberal anti-communism. Or is it that leftists are getting so much better as passing themselves off as liberals?
One could say the same thing, perhaps, about rightist nationalism infecting conservatism, but only if you hold that in many cases conservatives are lying about their motivations for border security in a time of war.
Perhaps in both cases it is that the out of power party goes to those that might be allies to try to regain power, and so conservatives are giving libertarians more say (which I generally support as a hopefully moderating influence on the statist tendencies of all polititicians) and the liberals parroted so much of leftist critique of America when GWB led it.

By the way, do you have a comment on liberals (Mrs. Clinton for example) taking on the label of progressive? Is it just re-branding, or is there a difference? (I know progressivism is quite different from classcial liberalism, but even non-leftist liberals have strayed far from classical liberalism, moreso than conservatives, imo, though not most representatives)

274 madisonsfriend  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:03:44pm

Mad mullah-
I am all Jewish and I don't differentiate between a Jew hater on the left or right. It is all bad to me. I'd let them both drown and save the dog.

275 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:05:20pm

re: #271 Mad Mullah

No, I don't think that you should be rounded up and eliminated. It would be a waste of Zyklon-B. And I'm part Jewish, you fool. Comparing a Jew to a Nazi shows
your complete lack of intelligence.

I took the trouble to read your recent prior posts to try to find some corroboration for your claim that you had previously rejected any alliance with the Eurofascists. The links I posted did not, and in the absence of you posting another link at this time, I will conclude that you are a Nazi-sympathinzing swine. And if you are "part-Jewish" then that is more to your shame.
Bring it, if you have the balls.

276 vitoc  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:09:13pm

re: #157 neverquit

I don't need lectured on the relationship between the industrialists and Hitler. They certainly were not free market capitalists.

National Socialism was all about the state, not individual rights. I don't need to read the accepted historians to understand that.

This is just plain WRONG. Fascism was about the state, but not Nazism. Unlike the Italians, the German nazis did what they could to destroy the state - and replace it with movement organizations. For example: Police vs SS.

They did so because the state would have reduced their power - only with the uncertainty and dynamical nature of movements you get into full-on totalitarian territory, only then you get people fully terrorized if they do not know anymore what is actually allowed and what is not. The nazis wanted to get rid of the certainty that laws provide - they were not interested in enforcing laws they introduced, they wanted to enforce the Führer's will. And that is by definition hard to know...

I realize you are not interested in reading "accepted historians" - but for those who are: Hannah Arendt (The Origins of Totalitarianism) and Ernst Fränkel (The Dual State) wrote in detail about specifically this.

277 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:09:28pm

re: #275 Spare O'Lake

I took the trouble to read your recent prior posts to try to find some corroboration for your claim that you had previously rejected any alliance with the Eurofascists. The links I posted did not, and in the absence of you posting another link at this time, I will conclude that you are a Nazi-sympathinzing swine. And if you are "part-Jewish" then that is more to your shame.
Bring it, if you have the balls.

I'm through with you. You won't be receiving any more replies from me. You can think whatever you please. There is no doubt that Nazis are pure scum of the earth, but they are apparently a level above you on the totem pole.

278 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:15:01pm

re: #272 Render

Operation Sea Lion had a couple of requirements before it could proceed.

(1) The defeat of the Royal Navy and (2) the RAF. The RAF (the Few, the Proud) won the Battle of Britain, and the Royal Navy, though battered, bloody, and stretched around the planet, remained in position to menace the Channel.

No sweat on your #260 strike through, understandable.

While control of the sea is essential for an island nation such as Britain, Hitler could only be toppled via a land invasion. Even the strategic bombing of Germany had less then satisfactory results. The war could not be won on the cheap. Paris was liberated by armored forces, not by the navy.

279 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:17:53pm

re: #277 Mad Mullah

I'm through with you. You won't be receiving any more replies from me. You can think whatever you please. There is no doubt that Nazis are pure scum of the earth, but they are apparently a level above you on the totem pole.

Now didn't it feel good to say that Nazis are pure scum of the earth?
BTW, I don't care what you think of me - what I care about is not associating myself with Nazi sympathizers.

280 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:19:59pm

re: #278 Joel

While control of the sea is essential for an island nation such as Britain, Hitler could only be toppled via a land invasion. Even the strategic bombing of Germany had less then satisfactory results. The war could not be won on the cheap. Paris was liberated by armored forces, not by the navy.

We could have nuked Germany into submission, but that's a whole other issue.

281 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:21:41pm

re: #280 Spare O'Lake

We could have nuked Germany into submission, but that's a whole other issue.

Not really. The atom bomb was only available in July 1945 and there were only a handful of them available contrary to what Jon Stewart thinks.

282 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:22:15pm

re: #273 nikis-knight

I don't mean just the distinction, I mean the differences. Like the thread topic; leftist anti-semitism is bleeding into liberalism, blurry the difference, just as leftist communist sympathies eroded much of the liberal anti-communism. Or is it that leftists are getting so much better as passing themselves off as liberals?

Leftists have indeed infiltrated liberals, just as rightists have infiltrated conservatives. But the Soviets were not against the Jews as an ethnicity so much as they were miffed at them choosing constitutional democracy over socialism. Which is why they attacked Israel not for being Jewish, but for being Zionist, just as they attacked the US for being imperialist.

Many folks on all sides of the political spectrum are dumbasses, and many US leftists, and those former liberals who mistakenly accepted the propaganda lie that they had to be leftist to be liberal, seem to have confused an attack upon a governmental form with an attack against an ethnicity, and thus both mistakenly perceived and genuinely internalized antisemitism.

One could say the same thing, perhaps, about rightist nationalism infecting conservatism, but only if you hold that in many cases conservatives are lying about their motivations for border security in a time of war.
Perhaps in both cases it is that the out of power party goes to those that might be allies to try to regain power, and so conservatives are giving libertarians more say (which I generally support as a hopefully moderating influence on the statist tendencies of all polititicians) and the liberals parroted so much of leftist critique of America when GWB led it.

I myself am for a border fence and the deportation of illegal aliens; too many conservatives, particularly Paulians and Buchananites, have mistakenly adopted the idea that they had to be at least a little racist right in order to be conservative, and so they omit to include the word 'illegal'. That makes them no better than the fascist europarties who would deport all Muslims on the basis of religion, even those who have seamlessly integrated into the society of their host nation.

By the way, do you have a comment on liberals (Mrs. Clinton for example) taking on the label of progressive? Is it just re-branding, or is there a difference? (I know progressivism is quite different from classcial liberalism, but even non-leftist liberals have strayed far from classical liberalism, moreso than conservatives, imo, though not most representatives)

Progressives seem to me to be the correlative opposite extreme to luddites. Whereas luddites don't wanna change even things that need to be changed, for tradition's sake, progressives seem to wanna change even those things that don't need changing, for the sake of change itself, mistaking change as a synonym for progress, which it isn't. Edmund Burke said that conservatives should change those things that need to be changed, and retain those things that don't need to be changed - and think carefully about consequences and ramifications before they decide either way.

283 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:22:16pm

re: #281 Joel

Not really. The atom bomb was only available in July 1945 and there were only a handful of them available contrary to what Jon Stewart thinks.

LOL!

284 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:23:02pm

re: #98 Salamantis

Sorry but the first part of that is simply not true. While not Marxist, the fascists and, by extension, the Nazis (whose economic program was borrowed almost entirely from the Italian fascist model), was both theoretically and practically socialist in nature. As a political system, it has to be remembered, fascism is a variant of corporatism, which is a variant of syndicalism, which is a socialist political organization of society. Both systems drew heavily from the pre-Marxist continental utopian socialists. "Property" in either regime was unrecognizeable from any traditional Western economic or legal tradition. Rather than the consequence of an individual right, both systems treated it as a public trust to be administered on the state's behalf.

285 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:23:19pm

re: #111 Salamantis

There are anti-Israel and anti-Semites on both extreme of the camps. However, the lion share of the noise comes from the left. Often, the left is clearly philosophically opposed to the existence of Israel. For every Ron Paul or Pat B and can give you 100s of left-wing nut jobs who get real traction in their communities. How about Noam Chomsky for example? Ron Paul might want to cut US to Israel aid. Noam and ilk want to see Israel dissolved. Now we don't have to split hairs. Go to any left leaning protest in this country and just count the Israel bashers. Add this to your equal-share point of view - how much traction does Ron Paul get? Now read the NY Times, watch CNN, or listen to the talking heads at the UN and you'll get my drift...

286 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:27:15pm

re: #263 Joel

Napoleon had neither an air force nor a Nelson.

re: #278 Joel

Without control of the sea and the air, those armored forces that liberated Paris would never have reached the beaches of Normandy, much less fought their way halfway across Europe. Without the Royal Navy Great Britain would have been starved into submission by the Kriegsmarines attempted blockade (The Battle of the Atlantic).

HUNGRY
DOBERMANS,
R

287 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:30:26pm

re: #276 vitoc

This is just plain WRONG. Fascism was about the state, but not Nazism. Unlike the Italians, the German nazis did what they could to destroy the state - and replace it with movement organizations. For example: Police vs SS.

They did so because the state would have reduced their power - only with the uncertainty and dynamical nature of movements you get into full-on totalitarian territory, only then you get people fully terrorized if they do not know anymore what is actually allowed and what is not. The nazis wanted to get rid of the certainty that laws provide - they were not interested in enforcing laws they introduced, they wanted to enforce the Führer's will. And that is by definition hard to know...

I realize you are not interested in reading "accepted historians" - but for those who are: Hannah Arendt (The Origins of Totalitarianism) and Ernst Fränkel (The Dual State) wrote in detail about specifically this.

Saddam Hussein had portraits of both Stalin and Hitler hanging on the wall in his presidential office. Remember when he appeared before the Baathist Party leaders, started pointing out people and denouncing them as traitors, then calmly smoked a cigar as they were immediately taken out and shot, and how the survivors fell all over each other loudly proclaiming their undying loyalty to him?

288 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:31:01pm

re: #285 Curtain of Oz

There are anti-Israel and anti-Semites on both extreme of the camps. However, the lion share of the noise comes from the left.

Watch out now, you might be accused of being a Nazi sympathizer for pointing out the truth.

The truth is that there are a 100 times as many Jew haters on the left as there are on the right.

289 vitoc  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:35:40pm

re: #287 Salamantis

Yeah, I remember that. And I for one - unlike about 98% of those other people living in my county - was DAMN glad he was taken out. I still think, even after all that went wrong after the initial war, removing Saddam from power was the right decision.

290 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:37:36pm

re: #288 Mad Mullah

Disagreed, if you remove the Islamic anti-Semites, (who are neither Left nor Right in the classical versions of those terms), from the equation.

It's just about equal, and always has been.

REALLY,
R

291 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:39:00pm

re: #285 Curtain of Oz

There are anti-Israel and anti-Semites on both extreme of the camps. However, the lion share of the noise comes from the left. Often, the left is clearly philosophically opposed to the existence of Israel. For every Ron Paul or Pat B and can give you 100s of left-wing nut jobs who get real traction in their communities. How about Noam Chomsky for example? Ron Paul might want to cut US to Israel aid. Noam and ilk want to see Israel dissolved. Now we don't have to split hairs. Go to any left leaning protest in this country and just count the Israel bashers. Add this to your equal-share point of view - how much traction does Ron Paul get? Now read the NY Times, watch CNN, or listen to the talking heads at the UN and you'll get my drift...

In the USA both the Dems and the GOP are officially pro-Israel.
IMO, both have been getting kind of luke-warm in their support lately, and quite frankly there is not all that much to choose between them. Obama is of course a wild card because noone really knows what the hell he stands for, probably not even him.

Anti-Semitism is another matter.
The extreme right is virulently anti-Semitic, and while there is anti-Semitism on the far left I would give the clear edge to the far right.

292 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:40:11pm

re: #288 Mad Mullah

The left-wing mindset - anti-Israel, anti-American, anti-corporation, anti-capitalism (on, and on, and on...) has become mainstream: the MSM, our politics (ie. Samatha Power), the very fabric our our discussions are generally framed by this perspective. They set the denominator. They create the starting line. That is my issue with leftist who goose steps around repeating "occupation" and don't know what the F they are talking about.

293 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:41:38pm

re: #291 Spare O'Lake


The extreme right is virulently anti-Semitic, and while there is anti-Semitism on the far left I would give the clear edge to the far right.


Have you ever been to an anti-war demonstration? have you ever read The Nation magazine?

I would trust the Republicans over the Democrats when the rubber hits the road regarding Israel. This is not the Democratic party of Henry Jackson any more.

294 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:42:22pm

re: #285 Curtain of Oz

There are anti-Israel and anti-Semites on both extreme of the camps. However, the lion share of the noise comes from the left. Often, the left is clearly philosophically opposed to the existence of Israel. For every Ron Paul or Pat B and can give you 100s of left-wing nut jobs who get real traction in their communities. How about Noam Chomsky for example? Ron Paul might want to cut US to Israel aid. Noam and ilk want to see Israel dissolved. Now we don't have to split hairs. Go to any left leaning protest in this country and just count the Israel bashers. Add this to your equal-share point of view - how much traction does Ron Paul get? Now read the NY Times, watch CNN, or listen to the talking heads at the UN and you'll get my drift...

The open antisemites on the right (for instance, the John Birchers) were tossed out of the conservative movement by William F. Buckley, and have yet to worm their way back in from their far right fascist fringes. The big name anti-Israel folks on the left don't claim to want to see Jews killed (Chomsky and Finkelstein ARE Jews), but they share the Soviet resentment that Israel chose constitutional democracy rather than socialism, and wish to see its government fail for that reason.

Far too many of both the rank and file leftists claiming to be liberals and the rank and file rightists claiming to be conservatives are simply ignorant, arrogant, bigoted and/or belligerent anuses. And a lot of them are just dense. Especially the ones who like to protest roll.

295 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:43:45pm

re: #291 Spare O'Lake

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Dr. Martin Luther King responded: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism.”

296 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:43:53pm

re: #286 Render

No modern war was ever won solely on the basis of a navy and that goes back to the wars with Hannibal. A navy assists in a victory but ground forces are needed.

297 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:45:41pm

re: #293 Joel

Have you ever been to an anti-war demonstration? have you ever read The Nation magazine?

I would trust the Republicans over the Democrats when the rubber hits the road regarding Israel. This is not the Democratic party of Henry Jackson any more.

Joel, I was distinguishing between support for Israel and anti-Semitism. It doesn't really further the debate for you to ignore that.
I too would give the edge to the GOP on support for Israel, but not by much.

298 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:48:06pm

re: #284 Bill Dalasio

Nazis were socialists like Peoples' Democracies are democratic.

When you look at the US far left organizations, like the Weathermen, World Can't Wait and ANSWER, they, like the communists, are all about eliminating class distinctions internationally. When you look at the US far left organizations, like the John Birchers, the KKK, the National Alliance, andf Stormfront, they, like the fascists, are all about achieving racial purity and supremacy nationally.

Many liberals have unfortunately made the mistake of being seduced by communists into confusing completely respectable classical (John Stuart) Millian liberalism with leftism, and then claiming to be left wingers. It is equally regrettable to see many conservatives making the same kind of mistake, and allowing themselves to be seduced by fascists into confusing completely respectable (Edmund) Burkean conservatism with rightism, and then claiming to be right wingers. Because in either case, there is the danger that if enough people believe the lie, then it will become true, and all that nasty baggage will be brought on board. Indeed, much of it already has been - on both sides.

Sorry but the first part of that is simply not true. While not Marxist, the fascists and, by extension, the Nazis (whose economic program was borrowed almost entirely from the Italian fascist model), was both theoretically and practically socialist in nature. As a political system, it has to be remembered, fascism is a variant of corporatism, which is a variant of syndicalism, which is a socialist political organization of society. Both systems drew heavily from the pre-Marxist continental utopian socialists. "Property" in either regime was unrecognizeable from any traditional Western economic or legal tradition. Rather than the consequence of an individual right, both systems treated it as a public trust to be administered on the state's behalf.

But they still had private ownership of property, like land and factories, and the owners of these things privately profited from them. Even when they owners of the factories were the guild laborers, which is how syndicalism worked.

Not so in the Soviet Union.

299 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:48:40pm

re: #290 Render

Disagreed, if you remove the Islamic anti-Semites, (who are neither Left nor Right in the classical versions of those terms), from the equation.

It's just about equal, and always has been.

REALLY,
R

The Islamic Jew haters and the left Jew haters are allied. The extreme right is not really in power or in control of any governments, while the left is in control many places in Europe. The extreme left is mainstream, while the extreme right is not.

Also, the threat to Jews in Europe only grows for every passing day, due to the importation of extremist Muslims and the ever increasing islamization of Europe.

300 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:49:33pm

re: #295 Curtain of Oz

Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

When approached by a student who attacked Zionism, Dr. Martin Luther King responded: “When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism.”

I know I am swimming upstream on this, but I believe that there are many whose support for Israel is weak, yet are not anti-Semites.

301 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:49:34pm

re: #297 Spare O'Lake

Not every (but most are) anti Zionist is anti Semitic but every anti Semite is anti Zionist. Support for the survival and freedom of Israel is a litmus test for what one thinks about Jews (in my book). The Republicans get maybe 20 - 25% of the Jewish vote yet are solidly pro israel (discounting RINO's such as Lincoln Chafee and Chuck Hagel) while President Obambi surrounds himself with Israel haters such as Cahs Freeman, Samantha Power, James Jones, Merrill McPeak, Zbigniew Breszinski.

302 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:50:10pm

re: #288 Mad Mullah

Watch out now, you might be accused of being a Nazi sympathizer for pointing out the truth.

The truth is that there are a 100 times as many Jew haters on the left as there are on the right.

That's onlt because there are more than a hundred times as many leftists as there are right wingers (and no, I'm not talking liberals and conservatives here).

303 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:51:35pm

re: #296 Joel

Without a US Navy there could have been no victory in the Pacific.

The USMC makes good swimmers, but not that good.

Samuel Eliot Morison - In 15 volumes.

[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

You're quite correct that ships cannot take land positions, but without ships men do not take islands.

SINK
OR
SWIM,
R

304 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:52:46pm

re: #294 Salamantis

Because Chomsky is Jewish adds zero to this debate. Many self-hating Jews lead the charge. They are UNIVERSALISTS whom happened to be born Jewish. The left assists the Jihadists and sows the seeds for Israel's destruction. The core of their philosophical argument is that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state and they are useful idiots for the Jihadists.

305 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:54:04pm

re: #300 Spare O'Lake

I know I am swimming upstream on this, but I believe that there are many whose support for Israel is weak, yet are not anti-Semites.


Weak support certainly doesn't mean anti-semitism; people who single out Israel as the sole illegitimate nation deserving destruction or at least constant condemnation most definately have motives other than simply skewed sense of justice.

306 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:54:11pm

re: #303 Render

We can debate this ad infinitum but Hitler was defeated not because he did not have a powerful navy but because of the men of the Soviet, American and British armies. The Pacific war was different, our naval victories meant the halt of Japanese expansion but Japan needed to be defeated on the ground and the strategic islands retaken by Army and Marines.

307 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:55:05pm

re: #304 Curtain of Oz

Because Chomsky is Jewish adds zero to this debate. Many self-hating Jews lead the charge. They are UNIVERSALISTS whom happened to be born Jewish. The left assists the Jihadists and sows the seeds for Israel's destruction. The core of their philosophical argument is that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state and they are useful idiots for the Jihadists.

Like most residents of the Upper West Side. Cultural Jews but have no sense of Judaism.

308 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:57:19pm

re: #299 Mad Mullah

The Islamic Jew haters and the left Jew haters are allied. The extreme right is not really in power or in control of any governments, while the left is in control many places in Europe. The extreme left is mainstream, while the extreme right is not.

Also, the threat to Jews in Europe only grows for every passing day, due to the importation of extremist Muslims and the ever increasing islamization of Europe.

Let us remember that at least one big name US right wing author, Dinesh D'Souza, has actually urged socons to make common cause with Islamists on social issues (barf!).

309 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:57:52pm

re: #301 Joel

Not every (but most are) anti Zionist is anti Semitic but every anti Semite is anti Zionist. Support for the survival and freedom of Israel is a litmus test for what one thinks about Jews (in my book). The Republicans get maybe 20 - 25% of the Jewish vote yet are solidly pro israel (discounting RINO's such as Lincoln Chafee and Chuck Hagel) while President Obambi surrounds himself with Israel haters such as Cahs Freeman, Samantha Power, James Jones, Merrill McPeak, Zbigniew Breszinski.

Here is an illustration.
Many, in fact most Americans (and many Israelis) would say that the only real chance for peace is a 2 state solution. That attitude however would be viewed by many on the Jewish right as an anti-Israel position. It is clearly not an anti-Semitic one.

310 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 1:59:42pm

re: #308 Salamantis

Let us remember that at least one big name US right wing author, Dinesh D'Souza, has actually urged socons to make common cause with Islamists on social issues (barf!).

So what? For every Dinesh d'Souza I can top you with dozens of Fareed Zakaria's, Roger Coyhen's, Richard Cohen's, Chris Matthews's, Rachel Maddow's, Samantha Powers' who want us to acomodate radical Islam.

311 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:01:27pm

Like the USSR didn't kill Jews? Who armed the countries at war with Israel? The French? England? How many wars has Israel been through? It must have been those damn Irish again! With their leprechaun tanks! The far left wing were buddies with Nazi Germany at first. What about China? They were right wing? The war in Korea and Vietnam? We fought Nazi's there? Hello? Anyone home?
I have the Patton opinion. It is a circle, not a line.

312 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:02:28pm

re: #309 Spare O'Lake

The Israeli government officially supports a two state solution even though any one with a brain knows that it is a chimera since the PLO wants not a two state solution but ultimately a one state solution where the Jews are a minority and emigrate due to terrorism and increasing Islamization. Charles Johnson knows this as well. The mantra "two state solution" is a joke, Hamas certainly does not believe in it and neither does Hezbollah, al Qaeda or Iran.

313 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:03:24pm

re: #308 Salamantis

Let us remember that at least one big name US right wing author, Dinesh D'Souza, has actually urged socons to make common cause with Islamists on social issues (barf!).

What kind of social causes would anybody have in common with Islamists? Public floggings every friday? Equal rights for women, so that they are now elevated to the same status as dogs?

314 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:04:17pm

re: #304 Curtain of Oz

Because Chomsky is Jewish adds zero to this debate. Many self-hating Jews lead the charge. They are UNIVERSALISTS whom happened to be born Jewish. The left assists the Jihadists and sows the seeds for Israel's destruction. The core of their philosophical argument is that Israel should not exist as a Jewish state and they are useful idiots for the Jihadists.

The core of their argument is that either Israel should exist as a socialist state, or it shouldn't exist at all. Because they're all about socialism. And they're against Islamism, too (except for those hypocritical faux-multiculturalists who believe that every culture should run its own state according to its religious dictates if it so wishes, EXCEPT FOR Israel). But it's much more dangerous for those who are also against Islamism to speak up about that.

And on the other side of the spectrum are the ultra-orthodox Jews who actually visited the Holocaust Denial conference in Tehran and made nice with Ahmedinejad.

315 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:04:38pm

re: #313 Mad Mullah

What kind of social causes would anybody have in common with Islamists? Public floggings every friday? Equal rights for women, so that they are now elevated to the same status as dogs?

Excellent. Social conservatives including the National Review rightfully pissed all over D'Souza's nonsense. Victor Davis Hanson did too.

316 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:05:05pm

re: #311 hous bin pharteen

Like the USSR didn't kill Jews? Who armed the countries at war with Israel? The French? England? How many wars has Israel been through? It must have been those damn Irish again! With their leprechaun tanks! The far left wing were buddies with Nazi Germany at first. What about China? They were right wing? The war in Korea and Vietnam? We fought Nazi's there? Hello? Anyone home?
I have the Patton opinion. It is a circle, not a line.

You should always say "McFly" whenever you ask if anyone is home.
;D

317 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:05:20pm

re: #298 Salamantis

Thanks for the response.

But they still had private ownership of property, like land and factories, and the owners of these things privately profited from them.

But, residual benefit of assets is not the essence of private property. Control over the disposal of those assets is. A somewhat competent apparatchick in the Soviet Union had the de facto residual benefit of the assets he had control over, but he hardly could be considered to have been operating in a free market system. In both fascist and Nazi political systems, actual control over the means of production rested unremittingly in the hands of the state. That is the essence of socialist economies, is it not?

318 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:08:02pm

re: #299 Mad Mullah

I'm not going to disagree with that, in principle.

But I will point out that the Shoah brought six million or more reasons to not allow the extreme Right to ever regain power, or even the slightest hint of legitimacy. As long as they (the extreme Jew hating Right) exist, in even the tiniest of numbers, they remain a threat of epic proportions. Never to be dismissed.

You might be shocked at the size of David Dukes mailing list, and he represents just one faction of his movement.

MASADA,
R

319 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:08:04pm

re: #312 Joel

The Israeli government officially supports a two state solution even though any one with a brain knows that it is a chimera since the PLO wants not a two state solution but ultimately a one state solution where the Jews are a minority and emigrate due to terrorism and increasing Islamization. Charles Johnson knows this as well. The mantra "two state solution" is a joke, Hamas certainly does not believe in it and neither does Hezbollah, al Qaeda or Iran.

So, to get back to the point of what we were discussing, does that make all or most of them anti-Semites? Of course not.

320 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:11:52pm

re: #319 Spare O'Lake

I can't get into their minds but if I were a betting man I would say that at least 50% of Israel's vociferous critics have problems with Jews, especially Jews who defend themselves. As for the wooly headed do-gooder liberals who work for the J Street and other Peace Now organizations and support Yossi Beilin, most are so blind that I feel sorry for them. The Muslims will kill them too and they do not realize it. just like Michael Moore will get no immunity from having his head cut off if Islam ever takes over.

321 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:12:07pm

[Link: www.military.ie...]

Never mind. They are fighting around the world to stop evil-doers.

Can I have a Guinness when you stop water-boarding me now?

322 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:12:09pm

I am outta here. Check in later.

323 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:12:40pm

re: #311 hous bin pharteen

Like the USSR didn't kill Jews? Who armed the countries at war with Israel? The French? England? How many wars has Israel been through? It must have been those damn Irish again! With their leprechaun tanks! The far left wing were buddies with Nazi Germany at first. What about China? They were right wing? The war in Korea and Vietnam? We fought Nazi's there? Hello? Anyone home?
I have the Patton opinion. It is a circle, not a line.

Japan was fascist; Cambodia was communist. As was (and still is) China, at least politically, although they're trying to compartmentalize their economy in a capitalist direction (good luck with sustaining such an unstable hybrid). And yes, I've read Mao, and he's a taoist communist. China supported both North Korea and North Vietnam, and yes, they're both communist, too. And so is Laos. And so is Cuba. Myanmar/Burma, on the other hand, is fascist.

324 hous bin pharteen  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:14:24pm

re: #316 Spare O'Lake

I though he was in a time warp?

325 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:15:00pm

re: #311 hous bin pharteen

Like the USSR didn't kill Jews? Who armed the countries at war with Israel? The French? England? How many wars has Israel been through? It must have been those damn Irish again! With their leprechaun tanks! The far left wing were buddies with Nazi Germany at first. What about China? They were right wing? The war in Korea and Vietnam? We fought Nazi's there? Hello? Anyone home?
I have the Patton opinion. It is a circle, not a line.

Let's face it - pretty much everyone has killed Jews at one time or another.
A shortage of enemies, Israel has NEVER had.

326 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:15:56pm

re: #306 Joel

Not really, if I don't feed the Dobermans soon, they're gonna eat me.

The Soviets received a huge amount of desperately needed supplies from the US and UK, without which it's doubtful they would have won the Battles of Stalingrad or Kursk.

As I pointed out previously, without control of the Atlantic and the Pacific, no land could be taken.

You really should read at least some of...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or its condensed version...

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

MY
LEG!,
R

327 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:17:20pm

re: #314 Salamantis

It is more then socialism. Why are you hung up on that monomania? That concept is old - like a one trick pony. Israel has a far larger welfare state then any of its neighbors. It has equal rights for ALL citizens. Yet why is Israel they the primary target of the left's scorn? Even the Great Satan can exist! What makes Israel so special? Take time to think about it.

The ultra-Orthodox Jews you refer to are a tiny, tiny, tiny sect that rejects Israel until the messiah arrives. They are useful idiots as well, paraded around by Israel/Jew haters to show how open minded they are. These Hasid scum are shunned by other ultra-orthodox (their synagogue nearly burned down this year).

328 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:20:36pm

re: #317 Bill Dalasio

Thanks for the response.


But, residual benefit of assets is not the essence of private property. Control over the disposal of those assets is. A somewhat competent apparatchick in the Soviet Union had the de facto residual benefit of the assets he had control over, but he hardly could be considered to have been operating in a free market system. In both fascist and Nazi political systems, actual control over the means of production rested unremittingly in the hands of the state. That is the essence of socialist economies, is it not?

If Krupp was gonna stay in business, it had to produce what it could sell, and it certainlt couldn't sell across war lines. So it was restricted to a rather large client, and sold the lion's share of what it produced to that client. And it produced to order, for such a big customer, kinda like other states were afraid the biology textbook publishers would do for Texas.

Sure, the heads of Krupp would have been skewered on pikes if they'd have said no to the big bad Fuhrer. But coercion wasn't even necessary; business considerations were sufficient to disctate their actions.

It wasn't the German Army running those factories, and it wasn't the Reich government making money off of what they made.

329 [deleted]  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:23:46pm
330 Mad Mullah  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:27:02pm

re: #327 Curtain of Oz
These Hasid scum are shunned by other ultra-orthodox (their synagogue nearly burned down this year).

You're right about that. The NETUREI KARTA are not one bit better than Nazis, they're even slightly worse, since they're going against their own people.

331 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:29:24pm

re: #327 Curtain of Oz

It is more then socialism. Why are you hung up on that monomania? That concept is old - like a one trick pony. Israel has a far larger welfare state then any of its neighbors. It has equal rights for ALL citizens. Yet why is Israel they the primary target of the left's scorn? Even the Great Satan can exist! What makes Israel so special? Take time to think about it.

One thing that makes them special is that a helluva lot of obscenely wealthy Muslims put pressure on their business partners against Israel. And those business partners include individuals, companies, corporations, organizations, and countries. Oil is illegitimate but effective leverage.

But residual Christian antisemitism makes some folks more malleable to that pressure.

The ultra-Orthodox Jews you refer to are a tiny, tiny, tiny sect that rejects Israel until the messiah arrives. They are useful idiots as well, paraded around by Israel/Jew haters to show how open minded they are. These Hasid scum are shunned by other ultra-orthodox (their synagogue nearly burned down this year).

Yeah; they're whacked out concerning Israel. Like Finkelstein and Chomsky are. And like Buchanan and Paul are. Different kinds of whacked out, but all whacked out.

332 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:34:14pm

re: #328 Salamantis

Again, thanks for the reply. Whether Krupp, and many other German businesses were happy to go along with the plan does not define it as either socialist nor non-socialist. Neither does the disposition of profits. The essence of the question is where was the nexus of economic decision-making, in the hands of business owners or in the hands of the state. The decision makers were, in fact, in Berlin, within the German government. Moreover, in response to your question regarding the "Reich government making money off of what they made", one need only consider the Herman Goering Works to see that, in fact, they did make the money off of what was made.

333 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:35:22pm

re: #331 Salamantis

Yeah; they're whacked out concerning Israel. Like Finkelstein and Chomsky are. And like Buchanan and Paul are. Different kinds of whacked out, but all whacked out.

Opposition to the existence of the State of Israel on strictly religious grounds is permitted by the State of Israel.
How's that for a tolerant nation?

334 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:37:15pm

re: #332 Bill Dalasio

Again, thanks for the reply. Whether Krupp, and many other German businesses were happy to go along with the plan does not define it as either socialist nor non-socialist. Neither does the disposition of profits. The essence of the question is where was the nexus of economic decision-making, in the hands of business owners or in the hands of the state. The decision makers were, in fact, in Berlin, within the German government. Moreover, in response to your question regarding the "Reich government making money off of what they made", one need only consider the Herman Goering Works to see that, in fact, they did make the money off of what was made.

But they didn't make all the money, or even most of it. Most of the money was made by non-governmental business owners.

There were no such creatures in the Soviet Union.

335 Salamantis  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:38:58pm

re: #333 Spare O'Lake

Opposition to the existence of the State of Israel on strictly religious grounds is permitted by the State of Israel.
How's that for a tolerant nation?

Is it the 7th Day Adventists or the Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance on religious grounds?

336 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:46:17pm

re: #328 Salamantis

It should also be noted that the reorganization of industry under command and control lines by faxscist regimes was not simply a consequence of the acquisition of materiele in the name of wartime production. It extended across industry and extended to Phalangist Spain and Peronist Argentina, who were at least nominally neutral.

337 Bill Dalasio  Tue, May 12, 2009 2:49:29pm

re: #334 Salamantis

But, again, the crux of my point is that whether Krupp and other industrialists reaped the benefits of policies in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy is largely irrelevant to the question of whether those policies were socialist. Local apparatchicks reaped tremendous benefits from the Soviet system. Are you saying that the Soviet Union was somehow or another not socialist?

338 nikis-knight  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:01:00pm

re: #314 Salamantis


And on the other side of the spectrum are the ultra-orthodox Jews who actually visited the Holocaust Denial conference in Tehran and made nice with Ahmedinejad.

Those very very few, I believe.

339 Render  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:06:23pm

re: #249 Salamantis

Sal, I know this is a bit late in the thread but...

Operation Barbarossa began in June of 1941.

No channeling Animal House scenes.

24
CAPRICES,
R

340 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:09:20pm

re: #335 Salamantis

Is it the 7th Day Adventists or the Jehovah's Witnesses who refuse to say the Pledge of Allegiance on religious grounds?

IIRC it was Golda Meir who remarked to Lyndon Johnson: "Mr. President, you have a country of 200 million people with one President. Israel is a country of only 2 million people but we have 2 million Presidents."

341 Spare O'Lake  Tue, May 12, 2009 3:12:55pm

Hokay...killed another one.
*rubs hands finito-style*

342 loppyd  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:08:44pm

re: #220 Charles

If you think Pat Buchanan is a "pseudo" right winger, you might want to let right wing news sources like Fox News, World Net Daily, Townhall.com, Human Events, etc. etc, know about that -- because they seem to believe Buchanan is a very genuine right winger. Sean Hannity introduces Buchanan as "the great Patrick J. Buchanan."

MSNBC has him on regularly as well and they are certainly not right wing.

343 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:31:45pm

re: #333 Spare O'Lake

Not only that, these same people get gov't assistance in Israel. So on one hand they don't believe in the state, but are happy to collect a check for every child they have. The same situation is true for the Bedouin communities in the South of Israel that live off a check.

344 Curtain of Oz  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:36:10pm

re: #331 Salamantis


Most everybody has moved on. Doubt you will read this. My point is that I'm not talking about the 'fringe'. The Left Wing's mainstream position is what we are calling 'fringe', be in our gov't (administration officials), our media (take your pick), or our NGO, non-profits, think tanks, etc. You are happy to bring up Pat B, but he is a small voice compared to the universe of left wing double standard that is our daily bread.

345 BethesdaDog  Tue, May 12, 2009 4:41:31pm

Why is this even a surprise? You should see the comments after articles and columns in the Washington Post, especially after Krauthammer columns, and that's supposedly a mainstream medium. There are a lot anti-semites these days.

346 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:09:17pm

re: #326 Render

Not really, if I don't feed the Dobermans soon, they're gonna eat me.

The Soviets received a huge amount of desperately needed supplies from the US and UK, without which it's doubtful they would have won the Battles of Stalingrad or Kursk.

As I pointed out previously, without control of the Atlantic and the Pacific, no land could be taken.

You really should read at least some of...
[Link: en.wikipedia.org...]

Or its condensed version...

[Link: www.amazon.com...]

MY
LEG!,
R

Obviously you are a navy man and whiel I can respect that, wars are won primarily on the ground.

347 Joel  Tue, May 12, 2009 5:25:13pm

re: #342 loppyd

MSNBC has him on regularly as well and they are certainly not right wing.

Yes loppyd, Buchanan is a regular on PMSNBC because they can over look his nativist sentiment as long as he bashes Israel, Bush, 'neo cons', and Republicans. In fact, he is treated as a respectable person on MSNBC even by Krazy Keith Olbermann, Raging Alcoholic Chwisssy Matthews, and Mr. Rachel Maddow.

348 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:09:48am

re: #337 Bill Dalasio

But, again, the crux of my point is that whether Krupp and other industrialists reaped the benefits of policies in Nazi Germany or Fascist Italy is largely irrelevant to the question of whether those policies were socialist. Local apparatchicks reaped tremendous benefits from the Soviet system. Are you saying that the Soviet Union was somehow or another not socialist?

Local apparatchicks reaped what they reaped from state-owned companies because they were members of the Communist Party; local brownshirts did not reap any industrial profits BECAUSE they were members of the Nazi Party, but only if they already held part ownership in what remained private companies.

349 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:12:23am

re: #336 Bill Dalasio

It should also be noted that the reorganization of industry under command and control lines by faxscist regimes was not simply a consequence of the acquisition of materiele in the name of wartime production. It extended across industry and extended to Phalangist Spain and Peronist Argentina, who were at least nominally neutral.

That still was not state ownership of those industries, like we now see being perpetrated in Hugo Chavez' Venezuela.

350 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:15:46am

re: #342 loppyd

MSNBC has him on regularly as well and they are certainly not right wing.

MSNBC has Pat Buchanan on as their token conservative. Their obvious agenda is to tarnish the conservative brand by touting him as a spokesperson for it.

Which he is most certainly not, by any stretch of the rational imagination.

The man wrote a book blaming Churchill for WW II, for chrissakes!

351 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:31:35am

re: #344 Curtain of Oz

Most everybody has moved on. Doubt you will read this. My point is that I'm not talking about the 'fringe'. The Left Wing's mainstream position is what we are calling 'fringe', be in our gov't (administration officials), our media (take your pick), or our NGO, non-profits, think tanks, etc. You are happy to bring up Pat B, but he is a small voice compared to the universe of left wing double standard that is our daily bread.

Unfortunately, the communist ideological infiltration of the Democratic party appears to have been effective. There seem to be many more ignorant leftists there, who unthinkingly parrot a warped version of the old Soviet Union's antipathy towards Israel, because they do not understand that the Soviets' anti-Israel animus was not born from doctrinaire ethnic Jew-hatred, but from resentment that Jews chose to constitute Israel as a constitutional democracy rather than as a socialism, than there are classical liberals left, who support constitutional democracies and their maximization of guaranteed rights and individual freedoms wherever and with whomever they occur.

Now Karl Marx himself, an atheistic Jew, was opposed not to Jewish ethnicity, but to the Jewish religion. But then again, he opposed the Christian religion, and all other religions, with equal vehemence. He believed that if all religions were abolished, that people would cease to be set against one another by religious differences, and would then be free to simply relate to each other as fellow human beings. Here is an excerpt from Karl Marx's 1843 article On The Jewish Question, the only place where he devoted an entire articl explicitly to Jews:

"The most rigid form of the opposition between the Jew and the Christian is the religious opposition. How is an opposition resolved? By making it impossible. How is religious opposition made impossible? By abolishing religion. As soon as Jew and Christian recognize that their respective religions are no more than different stages in the development of the human mind, different snake skins cast off by history, and that man is the snake who sloughed them, the relation of Jew and Christian is no longer religious but is only a critical, scientific, and human relation. Science, then, constitutes their unity. But, contradictions in science are resolved by science itself."

352 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:34:33am

re: #347 Joel

Yes loppyd, Buchanan is a regular on PMSNBC because they can over look his nativist sentiment as long as he bashes Israel, Bush, 'neo cons', and Republicans. In fact, he is treated as a respectable person on MSNBC even by Krazy Keith Olbermann, Raging Alcoholic Chwisssy Matthews, and Mr. Rachel Maddow.

It is a great disappointment to me that Joe Scarborough, a former conservative Republican US congressman of mine (and a quite popular one), includes Pat Buchanan as a regular guest on his MSNBC morning show.

353 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 3:17:07am

re: #348 Salamantis

But, the problem is that the example of the Herman Goering Works belies that. At a staff of 700,000, the company was one of their larger corporations and most certainly wasn't part of his holdings independent of his position within the Nazi regime. Moreover, both transfers of "ownership" of corporate assets to party members and the provision of slave labor to party members were the rule, not the exception.

354 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 4:08:33am

re: #349 Salamantis

But, again, "ownership" in fascist regimes is not directly comparable to ownership in the Western legal and economic traditions. The continued right to the residual benefit of corporate assets was conditional on the continued adherance to the fascist central plan. The "owners" in question had no practical control over the assets' disposition, rendering them de facto administrators of the assets on behalf of the central plan. That pattern, while not Marxist (as I've noted) is most certainly socialist.

355 Render  Wed, May 13, 2009 4:43:02am

re: #346 Joel

Navy? Galrahn of Information Dissemination would be so proud. You assume too much.

Nope - Son of an ABN E9 ('50-80). Maternal side three generations Air Force all the way back to the Army Air Corp. Only Navy connection, stepson is retired USMC.

The classics (Von Clausewitz, Jomini et al) can only carry one just so far into the 21st century. Allow me to make some reading recommendations...

War in the Modern World by Theodore Ropp

Technology and War by Martin Van Creveld (disclaimer: Van Creveld was and remains horribly wrong about the Iraq War and not to bright concerning the Iranian bomb but that doesn't effect the topics of our conversation or quality of this book)

Fleet Tactics by Wayne Hughes (and its updated version: Fleet Tactics and Coastal Warfare)

No army moves, or even exists in the modern age without logistics. Not even the Taliban/al-Q are immune to that rule. Command of the sea and air is paramount to those logistics in modern intercontinental warfare as waged by most modern nation states.

Those men on the ground are the tip of the spear, but without a shaft there is no spear.

GALLANT
SIX
HUNDRED,
R

356 Joel  Wed, May 13, 2009 5:27:57am

re: #355 Render

Why do you feel the need to have those strange endings?

357 Joel  Wed, May 13, 2009 5:30:16am

re: #352 Salamantis

Scarborough is not much of a conservative although at times even he gets disgusted by the left-wing bias on his network.

358 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 6:13:36am

re: #353 Bill Dalasio

But, the problem is that the example of the Herman Goering Works belies that. At a staff of 700,000, the company was one of their larger corporations and most certainly wasn't part of his holdings independent of his position within the Nazi regime. Moreover, both transfers of "ownership" of corporate assets to party members and the provision of slave labor to party members were the rule, not the exception.

The Goering Works was one company among many. Krupp certainly wqas larger, as were several others, and their owners were not prominent members of the Reich.

Btw; George Schultz was CEO of Bechtel corporation, and Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, both massive corporations employing millions of people. Are you maintaining that the US was socialist prior to 2000?

359 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 6:19:48am

re: #354 Bill Dalasio

But, again, "ownership" in fascist regimes is not directly comparable to ownership in the Western legal and economic traditions. The continued right to the residual benefit of corporate assets was conditional on the continued adherance to the fascist central plan. The "owners" in question had no practical control over the assets' disposition, rendering them de facto administrators of the assets on behalf of the central plan. That pattern, while not Marxist (as I've noted) is most certainly socialist.

De facto administrators don't get to keep huge percentages of company profits like company owners do. And US corporate administrators are subject to the vagaries of the market and the will of the shareholders; if they don't perform in a manner satisfactory to the majority stockholding will, they are shown the door.

360 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 7:15:47am

re: #358 Salamantis

Btw; George Schultz was CEO of Bechtel corporation, and Cheney was CEO of Halliburton, both massive corporations employing millions of people. Are you maintaining that the US was socialist prior to 2000?

Of course, neither George Schultz nor Dick Cheney were in the government at the time of their serving with their respective companies. Goering was. Moreover, his position as the head of Goering works was not incidental to his role in the government. It was a direct consequence of it.

Come on now you're smart enough to understand that.

361 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 7:21:09am

re: #359 Salamantis

And US corporate administrators are subject to the vagaries of the market and the will of the shareholders; if they don't perform in a manner satisfactory to the majority stockholding will, they are shown the door.

Ummmm...you do understand that the difference of corporate administrators being answerable to the market versus being answerable to the state is the very essence of the difference between capitalism and socialism, don't you?

362 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 9:07:19am

re: #360 Bill Dalasio

Of course, neither George Schultz nor Dick Cheney were in the government at the time of their serving with their respective companies. Goering was. Moreover, his position as the head of Goering works was not incidental to his role in the government. It was a direct consequence of it.

Come on now you're smart enough to understand that.

Yes, this is true. But in the Soviet Union, they would not have profited from such companies in the first place, for they could neither have led them from ourside the government, nor received a salary for doing so, nor held any shares of their nonexistent stock.

So apparently, constitutional democracies, fascisms, and communisms are all economically different from each other. Besides being politically different.

363 Salamantis  Wed, May 13, 2009 9:08:55am

re: #361 Bill Dalasio

Ummmm...you do understand that the difference of corporate administrators being answerable to the market versus being answerable to the state is the very essence of the difference between capitalism and socialism, don't you?

It's the difference between capitalism and communism. But scandinavian socialisms such as Sweden still permit private ownership of properties and businesses.

364 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 9:53:40am

re: #363 Salamantis

It's the difference between capitalism and communism. But scandinavian socialisms (emphasis added) such as Sweden still permit private ownership of properties and businesses.

Ah, then you agree that a system can be socialistic while still allowing for private "ownership" of properties and business. Now, we're getting somewhere. But, if that's so, then your argument that fascist states were not socialist because of private ownership of productive assets makes no sense. Especially in light of the fact that fascist states have generally exercised both command and control and central economic planning to vastly greater degree than even the Scandanavian states.

365 Bill Dalasio  Wed, May 13, 2009 9:58:00am

re: #362 Salamantis

But in the Soviet Union, they would not have profited from such companies in the first place...

But, we've already established that the Soviet Union did have individuals benefitting from economic activity - the apparatchicks. In fact, we've also established that the pattern of their benefit more closely resembled the example of the Herman Goering Works in Nazi Germany.

366 AmericanPride  Wed, May 13, 2009 10:30:16am

"Arianna Huffington who seeks to establish a serious and credible journalistic reputation for her site."

Where did Camera.org get this from, Wikipedia?

367 Render  Wed, May 13, 2009 12:17:30pm

re: #356 Joel

It started from a discussion in 1985 or '86 on The Well BBS (or some other similar stone age dial-up BBS) about the proper formating of comments/posts. There was a group that insisted that on-line messages should be formated the same formal way as private snail mail correspondence.

I wasn't really involved in the actual discussion, I think I made just one comment (long distance dial-up charges were killer in those days).

But the conversation ended up being repeated on the Herblink BBS in DC around 1988-89, which is where I started up with my own modification to the standard snail mail formating rules as a joke/parody. I chose most of those early sign-offs randomly from the album titles in my collection, which in those days sat right next to my computer desk. After a dozen or so posts I quit doing it, but within a couple of days (dial up was so sloooow) pretty much the whole community was virtually yelling at me to go back to my "standard" formatting. I ignored the virtual yelling until an amazingly beautiful blond named Pt... at a Herblink get-together a few weeks later asked me to go back to my "standard" formatting, and to stop carrying my wallet in my back pocket because it ruined her view.

The odd formatting became permanent and I haven't carried a wallet in my back pocket since.

The sign-offs themselves - Sometimes they have something to do with the discussion at hand, but mostly they're just drawn from whatever catches my eye at random in the office at the time, or from the music I'm listening to when I'm posting.

I should have married that amazing blond when I had the chance...

EMERALD
EYES,
R

368 Salamantis  Thu, May 14, 2009 1:56:05am

re: #364 Bill Dalasio

Ah, then you agree that a system can be socialistic while still allowing for private "ownership" of properties and business. Now, we're getting somewhere. But, if that's so, then your argument that fascist states were not socialist because of private ownership of productive assets makes no sense. Especially in light of the fact that fascist states have generally exercised both command and control and central economic planning to vastly greater degree than even the Scandanavian states.

re: #365 Bill Dalasio

But, we've already established that the Soviet Union did have individuals benefitting from economic activity - the apparatchicks. In fact, we've also established that the pattern of their benefit more closely resembled the example of the Herman Goering Works in Nazi Germany.

Here's the point; communism and fascism differ in the rationale by means of which they endeavor to justifiy their collectivist totalitarianisms; communism attempts that justification on the basis of their stated goal of the elimination of class distinctions, and fascism attempts that justification on the basis of their stated goal of the achievement of racial/ethnotribal purity and supremacy.

Thus any economic system that is amenable to dictatorial command, be the property publicly or privately owned, and be the profits publicly or privately remitted, will do for a fascist system, as long as it serves their political raison d'etre, which is the achievement of racial/ethnotribnal purity and supremacy. This racial/ethnotribal purity and supremacy, while it may seek to rule over other tribes, originates from the geographical area traditionally occupied by the tribe in question; the blood is tied to its homeland soil.

With communism, otoh, the configuration of its economic system is part and parcel of its raison d'etre; the division between those who own property and those who do not - those who own the means of production and those who labor in them - is the most fundamental of class distinctions. Thus communist systems MUST abolish private property and assimilate it to the state if they are to remain true to their raison d'etre of the eliminating of class distinctions. Communism also opposes religions, because it views the distinction between believer and unbeliever, or believer and different believer, as another class distinction, and contends that if religions were abolished, people would be more free to treat each other as fellow human beings, because religious barriers between people would no longer exist. And while some communists may be racists or ethnocentrists, communism itself is nonracial and international, wrongly viewing all class distinctions as evils to be eliminated from all human experience, but rightly considering all societies and cultures to be comprised of humans. Of course, to globally eliminate private property and abolish all religions requires global conquest.

Theocratic totalitarianisms also wish to eliminate religious differences between people, but the means that they wish to employ in order to achieve these ends is the imperial imposition of a single common religion - theirs - upon the global populace. Of course, this also requires the conquest of the entire planet and all of its people. And theocratic totalitarianisms do not have to be racist (although they can be, if the demonization of a particular ethnicity is a component of their belief system), but they do have to be religiously ethnocentrist; they can be - although they do not have to be - socioculturally imperialist, as well.


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